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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-11-28] British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 28, 1989

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 22950  Proceedings  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 November 28th, 1989  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  7 28th day of November, 1989.  In the matter of  8 Delgamuukw versus her Majesty the Queen at bar, my  9 lord.  10 May I remind you, sir, that you are still under  11 oath.  12 A   Yes.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your name for the record,  14 please.  15 A  My name is Rae Manning Mclntyre.  16 MR. PLANT:  My lord, if I might speak to one matter briefly  17 before Mr. Macaulay continues with his examination.  18 A number of days ago I raised in court briefly the  19 issue, or continuing issue of the admissibility of  20 certain documents identified by Mr. Boys during our  21 cross-examination of him on his commission evidence.  22 And your lordship may recall that there was a  23 difference of opinion between Mr. Guenther and myself  24 on the effect of your lordship's ruling with respect  25 to our cross-examination of Mr. Boys and its effect on  26 documents which were part of our binder which is  27 Exhibit 1202, the Provincial general documents binder.  28 And I had asked if my friend might give consideration  29 as to his position on the admissibility of these  30 documents on other grounds such as business records or  31 ancient documents, and I understood that your lordship  32 had encouraged my friend to give consideration to  33 that.  I haven't yet heard from my friend.  I may say  34 that I'm anxious to have this matter resolved this  35 week, because we are giving consideration to the  36 possibility of seeking leave to examine Mr. Boys on  37 commission and obtaining an order from your lordship  38 to that effect.  The primary purpose of that  39 examination would be to obtain identification of the  40 documents which Mr. Boys has already identified.  But  41 if your lordship accedes to Mr. Guenther's  42 construction of your various rulings then we'll not at  43 present -- we are not at present entitled to rely on  44 these additional documents either in support of our  45 case against -- well, in relation to the case as  46 between the Province and the plaintiffs, and we don't  47 want the matter to be left that way, but rather we 22951  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  MR. GRANT  want the documents admitted.  And I'm sensitive to the  time going on here.  And if we are going to be asking  for your lordship's assistance in relation to an order  to examine Mr. Boys I'd like to do that this week.  Well, I'd like to do that this week in order to avoid  much more time lapsing.  I would prefer that these  documents simply go in, as I submit they're entitled  to go in, as business records or ancient documents.  And I would ask your lordship's assistance in  facilitating the progress of my friend's consideration  of that matter.  :  Well, my lord, my friend's timeliness was amazing,  because, of course, Mr. Guenther was out of the  courtroom throughout the entire submission of my  friend and just has walked in now, I must advise the  court, and therefore was not aware of what my friend  was saying.  As my friend indicated it's Mr. Guenther  that's been dealing with this.  :  In fact, Mr. Grant last spoke to it, my lord, that's  why I didn't share the concern that my friend is --  :  If I could just finish without interruption, Mr.  Plant.  I just want to say that I had proposed that a  couple of matters in the terms of logistics of this  week.  Firstly, I see no difficulty dealing with that  matter responding to my friend this week.  Mr.  Guenther and myself and Mr. Rush are dealing with  that, and I have absolutely no difficulty with that.  Secondly, in terms of co-ordination of time Mr.  Plant and I had an outstanding matter relating to  exhibits for identification that we suggested if the  Federal Crown was finished on Thursday we would deal  with this on Thursday.  If the Federal Crown was not  finished on Thursday we could deal with that at the  next convenient day.  But I had also raised another matter, which is the  Federal Crown's tendering of historical documents last  Thursday.  And as your lordship commented, I believe  on Thursday or Friday, that if we got those documents  or the index on Friday we could review them over the  weekend.  I still not only don't have the documents  but have no index or indication as to what they are.  And on the assumption that my friends will provide  them to us either later today or tomorrow morning, if  they are going to, I would be asking that that  issue -- that we have the time to look at them before  my friends deal with them.  And if they tender them 22952  Proceedings  1 tomorrow morning that we deal with them on Thursday.  2 And if that was the case I would -- unless my friend  3 Mr. Macaulay, the Federal Crown, has other matters  4 that I'm not aware of I would be proposing or  5 preparing that the exhibits for identification between  6 the Province and the plaintiffs be dealt with tomorrow  7 if there was not other matters that the Federal Crown  8 didn't wish to deal with.  And what I was going to  9 propose was that this issue could be dealt with  10 tomorrow morning either at the time of the exhibits  11 for identification, or given my friend's concern,  12 could be dealt with tomorrow morning before we start,  13 in any event, so that Mr. Plant would then know the  14 position.  And I appreciate his comments and will be  15 passing those on to Mr. Guenther, but I am  16 concerned -- the one thing that I am concerned about  17 is that we do not yet have any indication of what  18 historical documents the Federal Crown intends to put  19 in.  And we'll be -- we've repeatedly for the last two  20 weeks requested an index or a listing or something  21 that we could guide ourselves by.  And we'll need time  22 with respect to that matter.  So I think that Mr.  23 Plant's concerns -- I think that, in any event,  24 whatever happens with respect to the Federal Crown's  25 scheduling tomorrow and the next day Mr. Plant's  26 concerns can be dealt with tomorrow morning on this  27 issue.  And if possible we would deal with the other  28 matters if the Federal Crown wish if we were given a  29 hiatus or a break to review the Federal historical  30 documents.  All I know now is that it's 15 volumes or  31 less, and that's the only indication I have.  And I'm  32 going to have to have time to look at those.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  The reason that Mr. Grant hasn't got the — our  34 list yet is that I continue to go through those  35 document lists and those documents in an effort to  36 reduce the number of them the same way I have been  37 reducing the number of witnesses and other material  38 that comprise the Federal Crown's case.  And can I say  39 I've been fairly successful in doing that.  We have  4 0 reduced the time we're taking up in court from an  41 estimated five weeks to two weeks.  42 I agree that my friend ought to have ample  43 opportunity to look through those documents, the list  44 and the documents themselves, and what I propose --  45 it's quite obvious that there will be some loose ends  46 of various kinds involving all the parties,  47 particularly the plaintiffs and the Province, that 22953  Proceedings  1 wouldn't be addressed this week because I -- I expect  2 the cross-examination will take the balance of the  3 day, and we have some other things, and although it's  4 possible that part of Thursday will be available for  5 loose ends what I suggest to your lordship is that we  6 provide Mr. Grant with a -- the documents themselves  7 and the lists this week and that he make his  8 submissions on them during the week of the 11th and  9 the beginning of the following week.  They are by and  10 large archival documents, and they are certainly  11 nearly all historical documents.  There wouldn't be  12 much problem about identifying them in that way.  He  13 may want to submit that some of them are not relevant,  14 and so on.  I think he ought to have that opportunity.  15 We did start with an enormous number and it's way, way  16 down from what it was.  And there's nothing like 15  17 volumes or anything -- anything like that.  I don't  18 think he'll find that task before him when he sees  19 them will be particularly onerous.  So that's what I  20 suggest is a practical matter to deal with Mr. Grant's  21 concern.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, there's not much I can say to what  23 anybody has said this morning except to express  24 anxiety that these matters be resolved as quickly as  25 possible, but I don't have anything to suggest or to  26 impose by way of guidelines or strictures or time  27 limitations or anything.  I have to leave it to  28 counsel to work these things out as best they can.  29 And it may be that Mr. Macaulay's suggestion of the  30 11th is the best alternative if it is found that it  31 can't be completed or even commenced this week.  I'll  32 leave it to counsel to work it out.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  I believe it would be an advantage to the court  34 and the parties to have these documents reduced to a  35 minimum, a number of them, so I'm continuing to do  36 that.  I stay up late nights and come in early in the  37 morning to do it, and I haven't finished.  38 THE COURT:  All right.  39 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, my lord, before we go on with the  40 examination I think we were yesterday at tab 41.  Can  41 I go back to something that we dealt with earlier.  42 And I have -- particularly have in mind tabs 35 and 36  43 having to do with Bear Lake Charlie, and have in mind  44 Mr. Grant's submissions concerning the contents of tab  45 36.  I'm going to show the witness a small -- a  46 trapline file.  It's William Charlie and Co. trapline  47 file.  It's our document number 11,166.  The file 22954  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 number is 985-20-10-C, as in Charlie, -17.  And I can  2 tell your lordship that these -- those two documents  3 in my book of exhibits, tabs 35 and 36, are included  4 in that file.  5  6 RAE MANNING MCINTYRE, Resumed:  7  8 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. MACAULAY CONTINUED:  9 Q   Mr. Mclntyre, have you seen this trapline file before  10 while you were an officer with DIA?  11 A   Yes.  There is a letter in this file of mine, a carbon  12 copy or a photocopy of a carbon copy of one of my  13 letters, so obviously I have seen this file before.  14 Q   And that's the what, the Bear Lake Charlie file, is  15 it?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And now some of the letters are written by you and  18 other letters by other officers in the department?  19 A   That is correct.  20 Q   For instance, on July 2nd, 1970 a Mr. Shaughnessy, who  21 styles himself Development Officer Lakes District --  22 MR. GRANT:  What's the date of that?  23 MR. MACAULAY:  July 2nd, 1970.  It's the fifth document from the  24 top.  25 Q   Do you know Mr. Shaughnessy?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And was he working on these trapline files?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Were these trapline files kept at the Burns Lake  30 Agency for a time?  31 A   They would have been kept at the Burns Lake Agency for  32 that period of time that the Burns Lake Agency  33 functioned as a separate office, but when the Burns  34 Lake Agency was amalgamated with the Stuart Lake  35 Agency and the Lakes District Agency thus created then  36 those files from Burns Lake, along with all the other  37 files, of course, would have been transferred to  38 Prince George.  39 Q   So that your letter of July 8th, 1975 to Mr. Cox in  40 this file -- if you'll turn to that one.  My lord,  41 that's the fourth document from the top of the file.  42 When you wrote that letter July 8th, 1975 the file  43 was then in Prince George at the Lakes District  44 headquarters?  45 A   That is correct.  46 Q   Now, have you looked at this file again this morning?  47 A   Yes.  Very briefly. 22955  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   And I draw your attention to some notes that appear on  2 some sort of government form on -- next to a  3 government form and mimeographed form entitled  4 "Trappers Stuart Lake Indian Agency".  5 A   Yes.  M'hm.  6 Q   Now, Stuart Lake was another old agency, was it?  7 A  Well, this was the name of the agency prior to the  8 amalgamation of the former Burns Lake Agency into --  9 with the Stuart Lake Agency which then created what  10 is, or what was then known as the Lakes District  11 Agency.  12 Q   All right.  Now, in that form in the -- one of the  13 pages there is a note that reads, "Has been known for  14 years as Bear Lake Charlie and Co.".  15 MR. GRANT:  But just a moment, my lord.  My copy of this is a  16 sketch note.  I don't know.  I'd like my friend to lay  17 a foundation.  Does this witness know where this  18 particular note came from?  19 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, my lord, I'm just drawing his attention to  20 it and I'll ask the appropriate questions if Mr. Grant  21 will sit down.  22 MR. GRANT:  Well, before you put that — read the note into  23 evidence I think you should lay the foundation.  24 THE COURT:  What do you mean by the foundation, that is to  25 whether the document has been in the custody of the  2 6 department?  27 MR. GRANT:  Well, yes.  And the source.  All I have is a  28 handwritten note.  I think your lordship can see it.  29 MR. MACAULAY:  It's part of the file.  30 THE COURT:  That hasn't really been established yet.  31 MR. MACAULAY:  I handed the file up, my lord.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  I think what your friend is suggesting, Mr.  33 Macaulay --  34 MR. MACAULAY:  This isn't a criminal case.  35 THE COURT:  -- Is that the witness shouldn't merely be asked if  36 this note in his understanding at least is a part of  37 the file.  It has a negative suggestion, if it's  38 possible, that it hasn't inserted here for reasons or  39 by persons unknown.  4 0 MR. MACAULAY:  41 Q   You have looked at this file?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And does any page of the file you have in front of you  44 appear to be something that didn't belong to the file  45 originally, not part of the government record?  46 A   Those pages of which I have examined all appear to me  47 to be a part -- to have been a part of the file.  And 22956  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Proceedings  1 I am satisfied that -- to the extent that I have just  2 this morning examined the file that they are all part  3 and parcel.  This particular note relates to a  4 trapline matter of -- of Charlie Nicholas, and I am  5 quite comfortable in my mind that it is part of the  6 file.  7 THE COURT:  Do you recognize the writing of that notation?  8 A   No, I don't.  That is not my handwriting, and I can  9 only speculate as to whose handwriting it is.  If you  10 want me to --  11 THE COURT:  No.  12 A   If you want me to speculate I'll do that.  13 THE COURT:  No, I don't.  14 MR. GRANT:  Well, that's exactly the point, my lord.  That's  15 where I say aside from the fact that Mr. Macaulay has  16 given this file to the witness and the witness has  17 read it over beforehand, this note, which is not on a  18 government form, it's a handwritten note by persons  19 unknown, it can't -- I submit it's not necessarily a  20 part of the business record.  There's no indication as  21 to why this note happens to even be in the file, this  22 particular note.  That's all.  And I don't want to  23 spend a lot of time on it.  That's my objection.  I  24 think your lordship sees that.  25 THE COURT:  I know.  You see the problem is the position which  2 6 you're contending is the one that found favour with  27 the House of Lords in the Meyers case, but the Supreme  28 Court of Canada went the other way and said that's too  29 strict a rule and relaxed it greatly.  And it seems to  30 me that there is a presumption of regularity.  It  31 certainly might be a matter of weight.  But, for  32 example, there's some particularity here.  It gives  33 their regimental numbers, if I can call them that.  It  34 gives ages.  If those things aren't correct they can  35 be challenged on cross-examination.  I don't know if  36 Mr. Mclntyre knows these people.  37 MR. GRANT:  Well, yesterday he indicated he didn't.  That's the  38 point.  39 THE COURT:  Did he say that?  40 MR. GRANT:  That's the point.  He speculated with respect to  41 William and John that they were the children.  He  42 speculated about that yesterday.  43 THE COURT:  I don't remember him saying he didn't know these  44 people.  That may be so.  45 MR. GRANT:  Michell I think he indicated he knew and, of course,  46 Mr. Bear Lake Charlie and Nicholas Charlie he knew.  47 But when he looked at tab 36 he said he assumed that 22957  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  that was the sons because there was no last name  and --  Yes.  And he made these assumptions. And now -- so this  witness has no knowledge of this. And I'm saying --  that's why I'm saying --  Well, I know, but the House of Lords said that was  fatal to the proof of the serial numbers in the -- all  the Austin motor cars that were made, or I think they  were Morris motor vehicles that were made over a  number of years.  And with the greatest of respect to  the House of Lords their decision is not one that's  likely to find favour in any part of western  civilization, except perhaps the House of Lords at  that moment in history.  It is too unrealistic.  That's -- I think there's a range, my lord.  And  there's many documents in here that I would not take  this objection to.  There's documents on government  forms, there's letters from this witness or from other  departmental officials, and in a presumption of  regularity all of those kinds of documents go in.  This is the kind --  I've seen enough lawyers' files to know that notes  and jottings are made on scraps of paper, on the backs  of envelopes.  And I once decided in a court case  based upon some notations that were made on the  serviette of the Imperial Room of the Royal York  Hotel.  These things find their way into files, and it  doesn't have to have the royal coat of arms on it to  confirm that it belongs in a file.  I think it's a  matter of reasonableness.  And unless there's some  reason to believe that a collection of documents,  including something like that, has been tampered with  the presumption of regularity tells me it's probably  part of the file.  It's a matter of weight.  It may be  that's what their regimental numbers were.  MACAULAY:  My lord —  COURT:  Maybe it appears elsewhere in the file.  MACAULAY:  We photocopied those this morning.  But on the  file we have that note is on the back of page three of  this government mimeographed form.  In other words,  it's not a separate blank page.  COURT:  Oh.  MACAULAY:  You see there's a page three.  COURT:  Yes.  MACAULAY:  Well, this note is on the back of page three of  the file itself. 22958  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Ruling by the Court  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 THE COURT:  Yeah.  2 MR. MACAULAY:  It just appears in the mimeographing as a  3 separate page, but it isn't.  4 THE COURT:  I'm satisfied that there's enough of a presumption  5 of regularity to allow the document to be included in  6 evidence if it's tendered for that purpose.  The  7 weight to be attached to it is another matter.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I'm going to ask that this file be marked,  9 my lord, as a business record concerning which, as it  10 happens, this witness can give some evidence from his  11 own knowledge.  Not about that particular entry.  12 Could that be given an exhibit number now?  13 THE COURT:  Well, has your friend seen this before this moment?  14 MR. GRANT:  It was handed to me this morning.  I know my friend  15 will say this, it's listed in the 11,000 series of my  16 friend's documents.  I certainly can't personally  17 recall reviewing it before this moment.  I certainly  18 would like an opportunity to review it before it's  19 marked as an exhibit.  20 THE COURT:  We'll reserve a number and not mark it yet.  It will  21 be 1232.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  Thank you, my lord.  In the circumstances I think  23 perhaps the original file --  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. MACAULAY:  That is the original.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  27 MR. MACAULAY:  It's the copy of the original, but it shows on —  28 that this particular note is on the government form.  29 MR. GRANT:  Can I see that?  30 Yes, I think my friend's implying by that that  31 he's assuring me I have everything that's on this  32 although it's photocopied in a different way.  On that  33 basis I have no difficulty with my friend tendering  34 the one in the brown folder subject to my chance to  35 review it.  36 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, if we could return, my lord, to the tab 41.  37 This is the Jeffery Luus Harris application.  38 Q   Now, these special ARDA applications, they were kept  39 in files by you?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And this was one of them?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And you went to see -- did you go to see, I should  44 say, Mr. Jeffery Luus Harris?  45 A   Yes.  I contacted him at some point.  I don't recall  46 the date, but I recall contacting him in advance of a  47 business trip that I was making to the Hazelton area 22959  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 and made -- made arrangements to subsequently meet  2 with him, which I did at his home.  3 Q   And do you recall the conversation you had with him?  4 A   Yes, for the most part.  5 Q   What was that conversation?  6 A   I reviewed with him the area of his trapline, the  7 extent of his recent use of the trapline, the location  8 of it, the other users, the trapping equipment that  9 he -- that he had of his own at the time.  I asked  10 that the other -- that the other people that were to  11 be involved in this application be available, and soon  12 after my arrival at his home his son Jeffery Jr., I  13 believe, arrived at the home, and together we talked  14 for awhile about the application.  15 Q   What did -- what were you told about the previous use  16 of this particular trapline?  17 A   I don't have my notes here now, but as best as I can  18 recall Mr. Harris or his family had -- did not  19 indicate to me that they had been in any -- that there  20 had been any recent use of this trapline.  And the --  21 I think the reason for this was that the location of  22 the trapline was somewhat distant north of their home  23 of which is located at Kispiox.  Also, Mr. Harris, as  24 I discovered when I arrived at his home, was an  25 elderly man, and I would judge his age to be in the  26 late seventies or perhaps even the early eighties, so  27 there was the question that arose in my mind as to  28 his -- as to his physical ability to go out and trap.  29 Q   How about the son?  30 A   The son who arrived, and he was the only other person  31 that arrived and participated in the discussion,  32 seemed to be unaware of his father's application and  33 was not -- didn't lead me to understand that he was  34 really terribly interested in his father's  35 application.  He revealed to me that he made most of  36 his living in the commercial fishing operation or in a  37 commercial fishing operation and really didn't have  38 very much to say at all that I could interpret to be  39 in support of his father's application.  40 Q   Did the son tell you that he had been a trapper?  41 A   That was -- no.  That was very vague to me.  And to  42 this day I'm -- it's not clear in my mind whether his  43 son has ever trapped or not.  44 Q   There is reference in the application to perhaps a  45 nephew joining in the trapline.  Was that discussed  46 with —  47 A   Yes, it was discussed.  But the nephew did not appear 22960  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  at the interview and -- well, I didn't make any  attempt to contact the nephew after my discussions  with Mr. Harris and his son.  And the trapline as described as being 62 miles north  of Kispiox near Old Kuldo.  Yes.  That's how it was described in this conversation?  Right.  M'hm.  And was anything said about having to cut trails in  order to get to the trapline?  I mean, in order to  work the trapline.  Not that I can recall.  There appeared to be more a  concern on the part of the elder Mr. Harris that --  that he needed equipment and that he needed a cabin ir  order to operate the trapline.  I was given to  understand, and came of the understanding, that there  is road access to the boundary of the trapline, and  although it's possible that access --  :  Well, my lord --  I, of course, don't object  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  -- Within the trapline --  My lord.  Just a moment, please.  My lord, I'm concerned,  to this witness reporting what Mr. Harris said to him.  The witness is now -- I'm not sure if the witness is  still taking about -- he said I was given to  understand and I suspect.  I think we're moving into a  field of some kind of -- if there's other sources of  information that he has other than this interview with  Mr. Harris that he's talking about I'd like him to  identify them.  If he's speculating I would like him  to tell us that too.  That's all.  If this all comes  from Mr. Harris or Mr. Harris' son.  Witnesses are not required always to repeat  conversations verbatim, but it is useful, Mr.  Macaulay, to classify the evidence as best one can as  between the witness' recollection of the burden of  what somebody said as opposed to speculating.  And you  might be able to assist us in that endeavor.  MACAULAY:  My lord, when the witness says that there's a  road up near that trapline surely he doesn't have to  say I consulted the Shell map --  COURT:  Oh, no.  MACAULAY:  — And found that.  COURT:  No.  What he said is I gathered or I was given to  understand.  I don't know what the basis and your  friend doesn't know what the basis of what that  THE COURT 22961  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 understanding is.  That's really all your friend's  2 objection amounts to.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  4 Q   Where did you get your information concerning this  5 trapline?  From whom?  6 A  Mr. Harris had a map of the trapline that was  7 submitted with his application.  8 Q   Yes.  9 A  And also during my discussions with Mr. Harris he  10 indicated that he could -- that he could drive a motor  11 vehicle to the trapline, at least to the boundary of  12 it, and perhaps to an area within the trapline at some  13 point.  14 Q   Now, the information that you got was either from the  15 application itself or from what Mr. Harris told you;  16 is that right?  17 A  Well, from both.  18 Q   From both?  19 A   From both.  20 Q   And not from any other third party?  21 A   No.  22 Q   And this application we're looking at is part of your  23 ordinary business records that you keep?  24 A   Yes, it is.  25 Q   And I take it attached to this application was a map,  26 as you've said?  27 A   Yes.  28 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm trying to avoid bulk by not putting in whole  29 files, my lord.  30 THE COURT:  Do we have the application the letter speaks of or  31 is the application the ARDA application?  32 MR. MACAULAY:  The application is the ARDA application.  33 THE COURT:  Thank you.  34 MR. MACAULAY:  That's how these applications are made on these  35 forms.  There are various attachments to these  36 applications.  I'm not putting every bit of it in.  My  37 friend -- we have the file here.  He can look at the  38 whole file in that connection.  39 THE COURT:  All right.  4 0 MR. MACAULAY:  41 Q   Now, the next tab is 42.  Did you receive this letter  42 from Mr. — from Mr. Harris, Mr. Jeff Harris Sr.?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And that forms part of the same file, I guess, did it?  45 The same application.  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Was that letter provided for you before or after you 22962  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  MR. GRANT  12  13  14  15  16  THE COURT  17  MR. MACAU  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  47  went to see Mr. Harris at Kispiox?  It was provided to me before I went to see Mr. Harris.  During this -- in this letter there's a reference to  Mr. Harris having registered a hunting ground on  Ironsides Creek.  Did he mention that during his  conversation with you?  I don't recall him using the name Ironsides Creek  during our conversation.  Now, could we turn to the next tab, 43.  Another  application.  :  I believe that with respect to tab 41, my lord, I've  made my points with regard to the relevance issue and  that's set out on the record, but my silence today  isn't indicating any other material other than those  two pages is relevant.  :  Thank you.  uAY:  This is the application of James Morrison?  Yes.  And did you interview Mr. Morrison?  Yes.  And did it appear to you from your interview that he  was an active trapper?  Oh, yes.  And did he have a map of his trapline available?  At some point in time.  I don't remember exactly when,  but certainly I was provided with a map of his  trapline and used that map in my -- in my analysis of  the application.  And did he have any trapping records for you to look  at?  At the time that I interviewed him I had -- I don't  recall that he had any -- any specific trapping  records, no.  Sometime though subsequent to the  application I -- I had an interview with Mr. Morrison  and at that point in time he had an excellent set of  records as to what he had -- as to what he had caught  and where.  And I was quite impressed.  Could we turn to tab 44.  This document in tab 44  entitled "Simon Muldoe and Co. Ltd.".  I guess is that  part of one of your ARDA application files?  It is.  It is part of my files.  It is, in fact, a  photocopy of the notes that I made during my interview  with Mr. Muldoe.  Which Mr. Muldoe -- which Muldoe did you have an  interview with?  There are several Muldoes mentioned  in these notes.  Richard in note two and Andy in note 22963  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 three, and so on.  2 A   It was Simon Muldoe Sr..  I believe he's referred to.  3 Quite an elderly man again.  4 Q   Yes.  And did he tell you what his trapping activities  5 had been on this particular trapline that he was  6 dealing with?  7 A   Yes.  That is my notes refer to that.  I believe it's  8 item 4 of my notes where I -- I noted that he had told  9 me that he had not trapped for approximately 15 years.  10 He also told me that there were roads into the  11 trapline, and that he did not know if any logging had  12 occurred within the boundaries of his trapline.  13 Q   And what did he tell you about his -- I take it these  14 are sons, are they, Richard and Andy, or were they  15 sons or nephews or -- or would you have to look at the  16 file?  17 A   I would have to look at the file.  I'm inclined to  18 answer that they are his grandsons, but I would have  19 to refer to the file again.  2 0 Q   And he told you about them?  21 A   Yes.  They did not appear at the interview although  22 Mr. Muldoe seemed to feel that -- that it was  23 important that this application was important to their  24 trapping activities.  25 Q   Did you gather from what Mr. Muldoe said that he had  26 trapping experience?  27 A   I wasn't really able to determine that.  He was -- he  28 was rather vague in that regard.  29 Q   Is that -- do you in the ordinary course of events ask  30 about the trapping experience of applicants and  31 their -- and their children or grandchildren who are  32 said to be involved in the application?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   I note you have a note that Mr. Muldoe, note seven,  35 was born in 1916?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   He told you that, I suppose?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Now, what did notes nine, ten and 11 say -- refer to?  40 A   I questioned them that if they were to receive  41 assistance in respect to the construction of cabins  42 where he would build a cabin.  That -- that -- that  43 relates to my note item number nine.  44 Q   Yes.  And did he -- did he tell you?  45 A   No.  He was uncertain in that regard.  4 6 Q   And how about note ten?  47 A   Number ten or note item ten relates to a question that 22964  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 I asked him in regard to the use of his trapline by  2 another native trapper, a man by the name of Delbert  3 Turner.  4 THE COURT:  Delbert?  5 A   Delbert Turner.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  One of the plaintiffs, my lord.  7 A  And the reason I asked that question of Mr. Muldoe  8 was -- flowed from an earlier discussion that I had  9 had with Mr. Turner with respect to a special ARDA  10 application that had been received from Mr. Turner,  11 and Mr. Turner had at that time alluded to the  12 possibility that he might be able to obtain the  13 consent of Mr. Muldoe to use Mr. Muldoe's trapline.  14 Now, Mr. Turner's application was not terribly  15 attractive to our programme because of the limited  16 trapping area that was at that time available to Mr.  17 Turner.  And similarly this application covered a  18 trapline that was not terribly extensive also.  So my  19 reason for asking this question of -- of Mr. Muldoe  20 to -- was to explore the possibility of his -- of the  21 joining together of two applications, namely the  22 application of Mr. Turner and this application that I  23 was dealing with at the time from Mr. Muldoe to see if  24 we could combine the two applications into one.  I was  25 then given to understand, you know, quite clearly from  26 Mr. Muldoe that he did not want to join in an  27 application with Delbert Turner.  And that is the  28 substance of my note item number ten.  29 Q   When you spoke to Mr. Turner had he given you  30 information about his previous trapping activities?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And had he been trapping actively up to the time that  33 he spoke to you?  34 A   Oh, yes.  Yeah.  35 Q   And what's note 11?  36 A  At the time I was dealing with these, or this  37 application and some others I had received comments  38 from native people that -- to the effect that they  39 felt themselves to be under some pressure from the  40 provincial fish and wildlife branch to use their  41 traplines and to show use of their traplines, and if  42 they could not do that then -- then perhaps they might  43 be dispossessed of their traplines by the provincial  44 fish and wildlife branch.  Now, I have to tell you  45 that I haven't heard those same kind of comments  46 recently.  I have no -- no knowledge of such -- of  47 such disposition of -- of traplines ever occurring, 22965  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 but that's why I asked the question of Mr. Muldoe, was  2 he under -- did he feel himself to be under pressure  3 from the fish and wildlife branch to use his trapline.  4 Q   In order to save -- preserve his position?  5 A   Right.  Right.  6 Q   And he told you, I take it, that he was not under  7 pressure?  8 A   Yes.  That is correct.  9 Q   And the next tab this is a document from the same --  10 the same application, is it?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And it's a letter from you to Mr. Muldoe?  13 A   It's kind of -- that type of letter is almost the  14 standard first response that I would send to all  15 special ARDA trapline assistance applicants, and upon  16 receipt of a reply to this kind of a letter I would  17 then -- I would then undertake to go out and visit  18 them at their homes and further discuss their  19 applications with them.  20 Q   And now tab 46.  This is also in the same file  21 regarding Simon Muldoe and Company noted?  22 A   Yes.  That is the initial answer I obtained to the  23 earlier letter under tab -- under tab 45.  2 4          Q   And —  25 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  This is a response from Doris L.  26 Morrison.  Am I looking at the right tab?  27 MR. MACAULAY:  It's tab 46, my lord.  28 THE COURT:  46.  Oh, I'm sorry,  29 MR. MACAULAY:  It's Simon Muldoe signs it.  30 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  31 MR. MACAULAY:  32 Q   There he identified Richard and Andy as his sons?  33 MR. GRANT:  Well, that's —  34 MR. MACAULAY:  35 Q   Is that right?  36 A   Yes.  37 MR. GRANT:  I don't think that's correct, my lord.  The witness  38 may not know the answer to that.  39 MR. MACAULAY:  What's not correct?  I'm suggesting to the  40 witness that he was informed by this letter that  41 Richard and Andy were sons of Simon Muldoe.  Well, my friend --  Maybe there's two Simons.  There are two Simons.  Simon Muldoe Sr. and the late  45 Simon Muldoe Jr..  And the late Simon Muldoe Jr. I  46 thought my friend would know because he was an Indian  47 agent.  He died some years later.  I thought this  42 MR. GRANT  4 3 THE COURT  4 4    MR. GRANT 22966  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 witness would know him.  My understanding is Richard  2 and Andy are sons of the late Simon Muldoe Jr..  I may  3 be mistaken about that.  That's my understanding.  4 There's two Simon Muldoes.  I thought my friend was  5 aware of the second Simon Muldoe.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  I was not aware.  7 MR. GRANT:  The witness may be.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  The witness thought they were grandsons, and  9 apparently the witness is correct in his assumption if  10 that's -- my friend's statement is evidence.  11 Q   Anyhow, that's part of the same Simon Muldoe and Co.  12 Ltd. file —  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   — That you keep?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   The next one is another application with a lot of  17 handwritten material attached to it which appears to  18 be the application of Doris L. Morrison.  Do you  19 remember Doris L. Morrison?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And her trapline company was called Li-Gi-Nil-Ah --  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   -- Trapping Company at Fiddler Creek?  24 A   Yes.  25 THE COURT:  Do you have the name, madam reporter?  26 MR. MACAULAY:  This is how it's spelled, L-I hyphen G-I hyphen  27 N-I-L hyphen A-H.  28 Q   And did you go to see Mrs. Morrison?  29 A  M'hm.  Yes, I did.  30 MR. MACAULAY:  I notice that on this application we include a  31 little more of this one, my lord.  The map's included.  32 Q   Well, did you ascertain from Mrs. Morrison what her  33 trapping activities on this trapline had been in the  34 previous years?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And had she been trapping there in recent years, that  37 is before your interview?  38 A   She was very vague about that.  And I can -- I was  39 left with the impression resulting from my discussion  40 with her that -- that because of the location of this  41 trapline that it was very, very difficult for her to  42 trap it.  And I say that because the map -- the map  43 shows that this trapline is located across the Skeena  44 River down river from the village of -- of Kitwanga,  45 and to obtain access to this trapline requires either  46 that the trapper travelled down the northwest side of  47 the Skeena River, and there is only rail access on 22967  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  that side of the river, or alternatively to go across  the river by boat.  And to cross that river by boat in  trapping season when -- when the river may -- may have  ice chunks floating down the river is a very risky  proposition.  And, in fact, within the items of  assistance that Mrs. Morrison listed that she would  require to access this trapline she listed a boat.  That's the last page of the written portion, the  handwritten portion of her application, is it, where  there's a 15 foot boat and 30 horsepower motor?  Yes.  Which of the two traplines is it that's on the map,  the southerly one or the northerly one?  I'm sorry.  There's more than -- there's several on the map.  Is  it 0615T009 or 0615T004?  I believe it's trapline number T009, the last -- the  last four digits.  Oh.  Because that is the trapline in which Fiddler Creek is  located.  Yes.  MACAULAY:  Q   Did Mrs. Morrison tell you her own trapping experience  through her life or in her lifetime?  I can't recall the details of my discussion in that  regard.  And this application is part of your ARDA file on Mrs.  Morrison?  Yes.  The next one, tab 48 --  My lord, just to state that the same objection  applies with respect to the funding aspect of the  application.  And I say this because this is an  application that's been marked for identification, if  I remember rightly, by the provincial defendant and I  want to be clear that if they intend to rely on the  funding aspects of it they should certainly apprise me  of that, and advise me of that.  But I anticipate they  may be relying on the same section, which is the  commentary section of it where the witness or where  information is provided on behalf of Mrs. Morrison.  If that's all they're providing as to the history and  utilization of the trapline that's satisfactory.  MACAULAY:  In fact, it was -- I put this to an earlier  witness, my lord, and the witness was unable to  identify it --  COURT:  Yes.  A  COURT  A  COURT:  A  COURT:  A  A  Q  GRANT 2296?  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  — So it was marked for identification at that  2 time.  It was marked exhibit -- it's 445 for  3 identification, my lord.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  5 MR. GRANT:  Subject to the -- subject to what I have just said I  6 think the identification can be removed from Exhibit  7 445 as well.  8 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  10 Q   Now, the next tab, tab 48, is another document from  11 Mrs. Morrison's file, is it?  12 A   Yes?  It is my -- it is my resume which -- which I was  13 required to prepare for the perusal of our special  14 ARDA advisory committee.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  My lord, we have blanked out the  16 recommendation paragraph, as your lordship will see  17 there.  18 THE COURT:  All right.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  My friend is welcome to look at it if he wants to  20 put that part in evidence.  We thought that might not  21 be necessary.  22 MR. GRANT:  Is there a reason my friend thought the project cost  23 was not necessary to be blanked out?  24 MR. MACAULAY:  The witness referred to the project cost in his  25 evidence, two of the project costs.  26 MR. GRANT:  Well, I'll be requesting my friend to provide me  27 that.  I can review over the noon hour these files.  2 8 MR. MACAULAY:  We have them all here.  29 MR. GRANT:  My friend indicates he has them here and I'll look  30 at the them over the noon hour and make a decision.  31 MR. MACAULAY:  All right.  32 Q   Now, the next tab, witness, is tab 49.  Joshua McLean.  33 Do you remember Mr. McLean?  34 A  M'hm.  Yes.  35 Q   And these documents in tab 49 are taken from the --  36 the file that you keep on Joshua McLean's application?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And the last document shows the trapline in question?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Yeah.  Now, do you recall an interview with Joshua  41 McLean?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And what did Mr. McLean have to say about recent  44 trapping activity, that is recent when you were  45 talking to him on this trapline that's shown on the  46 map here?  47 A   He gave me some copies or original fur catch receipts 22969  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  THE COURT  40  A  41  THE COURT  42  A  43  MR. MACAU  44  Q  45  46  47  that I was satisfied that he -- he had indeed been  trapping prior to his application.  And were you satisfied that he was an experienced  trapper from talking to him?  Well, to judge the measure of his experience -- he  didn't provide me with any -- any evidence that I  could really judge the measure of experience.  I was  satisfied that he was a trapper, that he had caught  fur, and so on.  I was satisfied that -- that he knew  how to trap.  You know, he had caught fur.  And that was --  So that was not an issue that, you know, I felt I  needed to focus on.  The next tab is that from the McLean trapline file --  I should say the ARDA application file for Joshua  McLean.  I'm sorry.  Under which tab?  Tab 50.  Under tab 50.  Yeah.  Just one note there.  Yes.  This is my notes resulting and made during the  course of my discussion with Mr. -- with Mr. McLean.  Yeah.  And you determined there was no logging?  If that's what he told me, yes.  That was the question you usually asked?  Oh, yes.  Yeah.  And what are the notes at the bottom?  Those were the -- those were -- those notes refer to  my summary of the value of the fur that he had caught  during 1980 -- the trapping season of 1986 and '87,  and the amount of money that he -- he had evidenced  that he had received for these particular pelts.  Oh, you have three something the first one?  I've got three marten for a total value of $95 and  five squirrels for $5 and one beaver which he says he  got $8 for.  That's information he gave you?  Yes.  :  I'm sorry.  Five squirrels?  I'm sorry.  Three marten at $95.  :  Oh, yes.  I see.  And five squirrels for $5 and one beaver for $8.  uAY:  Now, yesterday you mentioned in your evidence when I  was asking you about estate files remember I asked you  how you got the -- identified the band and the band  number for a deceased when you were dealing with an 22970  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 estate?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And you mentioned some lists you had in the office?  4 A   Those are band membership lists, yes.  5 Q   Who had the responsibility for keeping band membership  6 lists when you were superintendent at the Burns Lake  7 Agency?  8 A  My agency clerk.  And she would update these records  9 whenever there was a birth or a death or a marriage or  10 a transfer of band membership from, you know, where an  11 individual or his -- his family might -- might succeed  12 in transferring their membership from one Indian band  13 to another.  14 Q   How about the case of an enfranchisement, would that  15 affect the band?  16 A   In those rare cases there would be a notation that --  17 that that person's name would be removed from a band  18 list.  19 Q   You say they're rare cases?  20 A   They were then, yes.  21 Q   Did you ever recommend to a band member that he or she  22 seek enfranchisement?  23 A   No.  I felt there to be no advantage to doing that.  24 Q   And how did you find out when a child was born or a  25 person died?  26 A   Because the provincial division of vital statistics  27 also allowed or allowed and relied upon each Indian  28 agency office at the time to -- to process and prepare  29 those births, deaths, marriage and still birth  30 registrations.  And that was an activity, a routine  31 that was done in Indian Affairs offices throughout  32 B.C., and it was as a result of that documentation  33 that the band lists were maintained.  34 Q   Well, how did you find out when a child was born?  35 A   The hospital would send us a notice of birth or still  36 birth, as the case might be.  37 Q   Yeah.  38 A  And at that point we would contact the parents and  39 request that they come to our office and assist us in  40 the -- in the preparation of the birth registration.  41 Q   Yes.  42 A  And there were some other routines that we also  43 undertook at the same time.  For instance, the  44 application for the family allowance payments.  45 Q   Now, I notice that in the form -- my lord, I'll turn  46 back to this form again -- in connection with Noralee  47 Mathew Sam -- it's the form found at page eight. 22971  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 THE COURT:  What tab number?  2 MR. MACAULAY:  Tab 8.  3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 MR. MACAULAY:  5 Q   The form shows that Mathew Sam had a band number 23 at  6 the Omineca band and that on the same page it shows  7 Amelia Sam as having number 23 in the same band.  Is  8 there reason for that duplication?  9 MR. GRANT:  I wonder what the relevance is, aside from interest  10 of band numbers.  I fail to see what the DIA  11 administration and assignment of, as you said,  12 regimental band numbers is.  What relevance does that  13 have to do with anything that you're going to have to  14 deal with in this case?  15 MR. MACAULAY:  It will be relevant to the wills.  16 THE COURT:  A question of identification?  17 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, my lord.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  My friend may know all this, but we don't.  20 MR. GRANT:  My objection was not knowledge, it was relevance.  21 THE COURT:  All right.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  23 Q   How is it that Mathew Sam and Amelia Sam had the same  24 number?  25 A   Because under the membership practice or rules or  26 policy, however you choose to identify it, upon  27 marriage the wife would assume the number that her --  28 that her husband had.  And similarly any children  29 resulting of that marriage would -- would initially be  30 given the same number and retain that number until  31 they reach the age of majority.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  That information may be useful later on, my lord,  33 when other documents of that kind are looked at.  34 Q   Was that the practice from your experience in all the  35 agencies in which you served?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   That numbering system?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Who was the clerk in your agency at Burns Lake?  40 A   During the entire time that I was at Burns Lake the  41 clerks name was Caroline Kempannien.  She was there  42 before I arrived and she was there briefly after I  43 left.  44 Q   And she knew -- did you determine whether or not she  45 knew many of the band numbers in the agency?  46 A   I'm satisfied that she knew a great many of them, yes.  47 Q   The Lake Babine band, a number of the members of that 22972  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 band lived in Burns Lake?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   You've given that evidence?  4 A  And they were -- were they migrating towards Burns  5 Lake during the time you were superintendent?  6 MR. GRANT:  Well, what does my friend mean about this migrating?  7 THE COURT:  Well, the witness has already described that.  He's  8 mentioned it.  9 MR. GRANT:  Yeah.  The Lake Babine band, as I understand the  10 witness' evidence, was a band -- a reserve located at  11 Burns Lake, so if my friend is asking are they living  12 at Burns Lake I don't know whether he means at the  13 reserve at Burns Lake or the town.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm surprised my friend knows so little about  15 that area without the confines of the Gitksan and  16 Wet'suwet'en claim area.  17 Q   I'll start over.  The Lake Babine band members, most  18 of them lived in or near reserves on Babine Lake  19 itself, didn't they?  20 A   Yes.  Initially most of them lived on various reserves  21 along the shores of Babine Lake.  A number of band  22 members during my time there had been former band  23 members of the Takla Lake band and the old Fort  24 Connolly band, and quite possibly one or two band  25 members from other bands.  I recall seeing file  26 material that -- that showed that at one point in time  27 the members of this band had, in fact, comprised two  28 bands, as it were, that were recognized to exist along  29 the shores of Babine -- of the Babine Lake.  One group  30 which was called the Old Fort band tended to occupy a  31 very large village at a place called Old Fort on Fort  32 Babine, and another large group occupied two reserves,  33 one at the extreme north end of Babine Lake, northwest  34 end of Babine Lake at Fort Babine, and a smaller group  35 occupying other reserves at Smithers Landing and at IR  36 number nine, and then further down the lake, about  37 two-thirds of the way down the lake, if you like, at a  38 place called Topley Landing which is close to the  39 present day location of Granisle.  40 Q   Granisle Mine?  41 A   Right.  Those two bands were -- were amalgamated into  42 what was then, and continues to be known, as the Lake  43 Babine band in or about 1957.  44 Q   And during the time you were superintendent at Burns  45 Lake did the number of members of that band residing  46 in Burns Lake increase?  47 A   Slightly, yes.  Although most of the -- most of the 22973  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 Lake Babine members who were -- who were going to move  2 to Burns Lake had already done so.  Now, during my  3 time there, and after my time there, I know that --  4 that there were additional band members who -- who  5 subsequently chose to make their home in Burns Lake  6 and are there today.  7 Q   Did you know of potlatching among members of the Lake  8 Babine band?  9 A   I knew that those events occurred, yes.  10 Q   And did they occur frequently or infrequently?  11 A   I would say quite frequently.  I came to know of these  12 events mainly because they resulted from -- from  13 funeral activities.  14 Q   And did you ever attend one of the Lake Babine  15 potlatches?  16 A   No.  Although I was invited to do so on one or two  17 occasions.  18 Q   The Cheslatta band, were there to your knowledge  19 potlatches among them?  20 A   I cannot recall the same kind of events occurring with  21 the Cheslatta band, no.  22 Q   And how about the Burns Lake band, were there  23 potlatches at the Burns Lake band?  24 A   No.  There were no deaths that I can recall within the  25 very small membership that comprised the Burns Lake  26 band during my time there.  I shouldn't say that.  27 Isaac Sam passed away, but I don't recall a potlatch  28 being held for Isaac Sam, or subsequently for his wife  29 Theresa Sam when she passed away.  30 Q   Theresa Sam, that's the will we looked at recently?  31 A  M'hm.  32 Q   I take it you knew every member of that Burns Lake  33 band, didn't you?  34 A   I certainly knew the adults.  The children were kind  35 of hard for me to keep track of by name.  36 Q   Now, how about what was then known as the Omineca  37 band, were there potlatches that you knew of among --  38 A   Not that I can recall, no.  39 MR. MACAULAY:  By the way, my lord, we referred yesterday to  40 Tobey Charlie.  41 Q   Tobey Charlie was a member of the Burns Lake band?  42 A   Yes.  He had been a member of the Lake Babine band but  43 he chose and succeeded in transferring his membership  44 when he married Nancy Charlie, the daughter of Theresa  45 and Isaac Sam.  4 6 Q   And you know him?  47 A   Oh, yes. 22974  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  In chief by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, his trapline number came up yesterday.  2 The trapline number is 604T031.  And that's entirely  3 within the claim area not that far from Burns Lake.  4 Q   During your time as superintendent at Burns Lake did  5 you ever hear of clans in which the various band  6 members were divided?  7 A   Oh, yes.  I knew of the existence of clan -- of clan  8 membership.  9 Q   Yes.  10 A   I don't recall who belonged to what clan, but the  11 names of clans; the frog clan, the wolf clan, the  12 bear, the grouse.  And there may have been others, but  13 I was certainly aware of the existence of these clans,  14 yes.  15 Q   And did you know of any -- a subdivision -- another  16 kind of division into houses?  17 A   No.  Houses is not a term that I -- that I -- that I  18 had heard until I -- until many years later when I  19 was -- until, in fact, I was doing my work with --  2 0 with the special ARDA programme and came into contact  21 with the people up in the Hazelton area then I heard  22 the term houses.  But that was not a term that was  23 mentioned by people of the Burns Lake area.  But clans  24 were.  25 Q   Clans were?  26 A   Yes.  27 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, it's 11:15.  I may not have many more  28 questions, but this may be a convenient time.  2 9    THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  30 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  31 short recess.  32  33 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  34  35 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  36 a true and accurate transcript of the  37 proceedings herein to the best of my  38 skill and ability.  39  40  41  42 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  43 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  44  45  46  47 22975  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  In Chief by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. MACAULAY:  (Continued)  THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay?  MR. MACAULAY:  Q   In your term as superintendent at Burns Lake, did you  have occasion to travel around the various Indian  reserves within your jurisdiction?  A   Oh, yes.  I regularly travelled around to those  reserves that were occupied by Indian people, yes.  Q   And you travelled along Francois Lake?  A   Yes.  Q   And Owen Lake?  A   Yes.  Q   Was there a reserve at Owen Lake?  A   Yes, that's where Felix George Indian Reserve is  located.  Q   Were there any band members living at that reserve in  your time?  A   No, there were no Indian people actually living on  that reserve and the reason why I was at that reserve  from time to time was because there was interest on  the part of non-Indians in leasing lakeshore lots on  that reserve from the Omineca Band at the time.  Q   Were any leases granted?  A   Oh, yes.  Q   And the revenues would then go to the credit of the  band?  A   That's right.  Q   Did you find any signs of old habitations on Owen  Lake?  No, I didn't look for that, no.  You didn't look for it?  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT:  No.  You didn't see any?  No.  Not that —  Don't lead.  If he didn't look for them and --  better not to lead.  THE COURT:  It was verging on cross-examination, Mr. Macaulay.  MR. MACAULAY:  Well, this may be a good time to stop, my lord,  and they can start the cross-examination.  MR. GRANT:  If it was that easy my lord, I would have --  THE COURT:  Mr. Plant?  MR. PLANT:  My lord, I have some questions for the witness  subject to any objections which my friends might have.  THE COURT:  Well, I am sure they do, but maybe not.  If —  certainly there is no difficulty if it relates to 22976  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  issues between the two Crowns.  MR. PLANT:  I will endeavour to keep my cross-examination within  the limits of the ruling that your lordship handed  down with respect to Mr. Boys' cross-examination.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Just so that I can be clear, so I understand that my  friend's cross-examination here would be or my  friend -- firstly, is my friend dealing with this by  way of direct or cross-examination?  And, secondly,  though, the evidence is only evidence against the  Federal Crown?  THE COURT:  Well, I am going to allow cross-examination but it's  within the rubric of my previous ruling.  Thank you.  And I -- this is cross-examination, my lord.  MACAULAY:  My lord, before my friend comes up perhaps I  could have this book marked as an exhibit.  Well, I think so, subject to the various exceptions  that have been mentioned.  Possibly it could be dealt with after the cross-  examination of this witness.  That would be  appropriate in this case, because some of them I may  have a position on.  THE COURT:  Cross-examination may make it even more admissible.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  PLANT  COURT  GRANT  MR.  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  A  I have one initial question, which is really just a  matter of clarification of your handwriting, Mr.  Mclntyre.  It's a note at tab 40 of the binder of your  documents.  And it's got the number 8347 in the upper  right hand corner, and as I recall it refers to an  interview with David Blackwater senior, do you recall  that?  Yes.  And I have here, as I see it, a number seven, note  number seven, could you just read what that says,  please?  "His brother Walter traps on an adjoining line.  Will  also send consent and the maps or map of that  trapline."  That's the gist of my note.  Did you understand that that was going to be something  that this consent and maps that they were going to be  sening to you by David Blackwater senior or by the  brother Walter?  The responsibility for that was upon Mr. Blackwater. 22977  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 That was my understanding with him.  2 Q   David Blackwater?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   I am going to change the subject, if I might.  5 Could you describe, in a general way, what you  6 considered your duties and responsibilities were as  7 the Indian superintendent in the Burns Lake Agency?  8 A   Oh, golly, very wide variety of duties.  The  9 responsibility for membership list maintenance, as I  10 discussed earlier, and I mention that because it's the  11 thing most fresh in my mind; for the issuance of  12 social assistance to needy Indian people; also in the  13 welfare area, for assisting aged Indians for their  14 applications for the various pension-type of  15 entitlements that they might be entitled to; Family  16 Allowance administration; providing financial  17 assistance to Indian people in the repair and  18 construction of new houses; responsibility for the  19 agency budget in respect to community infrastructures  20 such as water and sewer and power lines, roads;  21 administration of estates; maintenance of trapline  22 records; liaison with National Health and Welfare  23 officials over matters relating to the health  24 responsibilities of that other department.  Is that  25 enough?  26 Q   I could perhaps also augment that by asking you with  27 reference to the semi-annual reports that are  28 contained in this binder of your documents, they  29 report on a number of other matters.  Looking at the  30 first one in tab 1, there is headings like agency  31 transport facilities -- I am really on the first page,  32 part one?  33 A   That would be a good general guide.  The sub headings  34 of my annual report gives -- it gives one a list of  35 the highlights of activities that went on during that  36 semi-annual period, but obviously there are other  37 things that I have just mentioned that are not  38 specifically identified in the context of that report.  39 Q   So there may be additional things to the report, but  40 the matters that you are reporting on here in these  41 annual reports are matters that you considered as you  42 as the superintendent had some responsibility for?  43 A  And that report was even intended to highlight  44 specific activities, and you may discover that if you  45 compare one semi-annual report with another that the  46 format is not necessarily the same from one semi-  47 annual report to another, because we were focusing on 2297?  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  27  MR.  PLANT  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  MR.  PLANT  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  different initiatives from one time to another.  Depending on what was a particularly current interest?  That's right, yes.  And as the superintendent for the agency, were you the  senior government official within the agency?  Yes.  And in the course of carrying out your  responsibilities it appears to me from my review of  these reports and from your evidence yesterday and  today, that you had occasion to deal with provincial  government officials in relation to matters which you  considered to be within provincial government  jurisdiction?  Yes.  Such as fresh water fishing?  Yes.  And trapping disputes or trapping?  Yes.  As to trapping, was it your experience as  superintendent within the Burns Lake Agency that from  time to time there would be disputes or competing  claims among the native -- natives who were under your  charge, so to speak, concerning --  :  Well, I am not certain what bearing that question  has on the issues between the two defendants.  It  seems that my friend is now --  :  I could assist my friend by recalling your  lordship's ruling, as I would apply it to this  context, means that nothing that this witness says now  can be admissible against the plaintiffs.  And if my  friend would indulge me in the courtesy of two or  three more questions, I am dealing with the  relationship between the two defendants, and I am  fully mindful of your lordship's -- the strictures  imposed by your lordship's ruling.  :  All right.  I think, on that basis, the cross-  examination may continue.  :  Yes, my lord, I agree.  The question I was trying to ask was whether during  the course of your tenure as superintendent within the  Burns Lake Agency you were aware that there were, from  time to time, differences among the Indians as to who  should be entitled to a particular trapline, and one  example that occurs to me is that the Mathew Sam  trapline is referred to in the documents that we have  already looked at.  That was one occasion.  But by and 22979  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 large there were not that many disputes.  Mathew Sam,  2 there was a difference of opinion certainly between  3 the then band council and obviously the wishes of  4 Mathew Sam and I -- there were a few others, but  5 when -- but there were, for the number of traplines  6 for which I was involved with, there were really very,  7 very few disputes between Indian people.  8 Q   Now, that's fair enough.  My particular concern was to  9 suggest to you that as an official in charge of -- as  10 you have said, among other things -- trapline  11 registrations, it was obviously helpful to keep a  12 written record of such matters as trapline disputes  13 and the outcome of them on your files?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And, again, as far as you knew, there -- the overall  16 responsibility for issuing trapline registrations was  17 in the hands of the provincial officials?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And those officials were accustomed to dealing with  20 you as the person responsible for Indian affairs  21 within the Burns Lake Agency, would that be a fair  22 statement?  23 A   Yes, it is.  They were accustomed in that way, yes.  24 Q   So it's not surprising that those officials,  25 provincial officials, might, from time to time, want  26 to have your assurance that particular assignment of a  27 trapline after a death was properly documented and  28 that you were satisfied that it was in the best  29 interests of those within your agency, the Indians  30 within your agency?  31 A  Well, I still felt at the time that the responsibility  32 was that of the province and that my decision to  33 maintain records for the Indian people was in keeping  34 with an obligation I felt that I had to the Indian  35 people, not motivated at all by any particular  36 obligation that I felt to the neatness and tidiness of  37 the recording system that ought to be handled by the  38 provincial government.  My interest was in protecting  39 the interests of the Indian people of whom I felt some  40 responsibility for.  41 Q   Whom, if I may, you were responsible for as the head  42 of the Burns Lake Agency; fair enough?  43 A   Yes, fair enough.  44 Q   I am going to change the subject again, and I wanted  45 to ask you now a few questions about some other  46 documents in the book.  And that is starting with tab  47 3, and I would like to direct your attention, Mr. 22980  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Mclntyre, to page 2 of part one of this report, which  2 appears to be your semi-annual report dated October 1,  3 1966; do you have that?  4 A   Page 2?  5 Q   Yes.  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Now, I am unable to read the third and fourth  8 paragraphs on my copy of this page 2.  This is your  9 report, Mr. Mclntyre?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   I realize it's sometime since you wrote it or it was  12 written for you, but could you assist me in reading  13 those two paragraphs?  It's really the words on the  14 left-hand side of the margin on my copy?  15 A   Yes, I have some difficulty with them too but I will  16 try and help you as best I can.  17 Q   If you could do that --  18 A   It appears to say, and I will start with paragraph one  19 or two?  20 Q   Paragraphs one and two I am less concerned with.  I am  21 more concerned with paragraphs three and four, the  22 first line of paragraph 3, all I can see is "Of the  23 four bands."  It may be intended to say "all of the  24 four bands in the agency continue to make fair use of  25 their band funds."  26 A   Yes, I would guess that to be the proper wording.  27 Q   Can you --  28 A   "All of the four bands in the agency continue to make  29 fair use of their band funds.  Expenditures have been  30 in small amounts and thusfar for purposes not too  31 significant, considering that their annual budgets  32 only total a few thousand dollars.  However, we -- "  33 Q   "Feel"?  34 A   Could be.  "We feel..." that would make sense, "We  35 feel that the experience these band councils gain  36 through the administration of these few funds", et  37 cetera, et cetera, and then the next paragraph:   "All  38 bands in this agency agreed to have their per capita  39 share of the B. C. Special vote funds turned over to  40 the Lakes District Indian Council for expenditure  41 again this year.  This is anticipated to keep all  42 bands in this agency in contact with each other  43 through their district council. The agency housing  44 committee is made up of district council  45 representatives and this group has been most helpful  46 in decisions that have been made", et cetera.  47 Q   Now, what was your understanding of what the B. C. 22981  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Special vote was?  2 A   The B. C. Special vote was understood to me to be an  3 amount, a special amount of money that was provided to  4 the non-treaty Indians of the Province of British  5 Columbia, a fund that was provided for them in  6 recognition that these people were not otherwise in  7 receipt of any other treaty monies.  It was my  8 understanding further that the incumbent Indian  9 commissioner of the day was responsible for the annual  10 administration of this fund and it was my experience  11 that these funds tended to be used for economic  12 development purposes in the area of commercial  13 fishing, agriculture and what have you.  14 Q   In your district, or in the Burns Lake Agency when you  15 were there, those funds would be used for such things  16 as buying power saws and outboard motors and  17 recreational activities and agricultural supplies?  18 A   Yes.  The division of the annual or the -- of the  19 annual provincial budget was being made to each agency  20 within the province, of those funds on a per capita  21 basis.  And as a consequence, my agency received an  22 amount commensurate with the membership, with the band  23 membership of my agency, times the then prevailing per  24 capita rate and those -- the authority to expend those  25 funds was delegated to myself and, in turn, it was  26 delegated or the funds were then credited, again on a  27 per capita basis, to each of the bands in the agency  28 for them to spend as they chose.  29 Q   So the bands participated in the decisions --  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Let me finish, if I may.  So the bands participated in  32 the decision as to how to spend that part of the B. C.  33 Special vote money that came to them?  34 A   That is correct.  35 Q   As I was, as we were reading this extract from this  36 report, there was another agency, if you will, that I  37 am not familiar with.  It's described here as the  38 Lakes District Indian Council; could you identify what  39 that group was?  40 A   That was the council made up of representatives of the  41 four bands in the district and it was a useful forum  42 to help me remain in contact with the four bands as a  43 group, rather than on a band by band basis, and  44 allowed the native councils of each band to come into  45 knowledge of what other bands were doing, and to share  46 in the decision-making process of how agency  47 appropriations might be directed. 22982  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q   Including, at least in one or two of these years, if  2 not more, those B. C. Special vote funds?  3 A   No, not so much in regard to B. C. Special vote funds,  4 because that was done on a firm per capita basis on a  5 band by band basis.  No, it was intended more as a  6 forum where I could share with the band councils the  7 amounts of government appropriations allocated to the  8 agency for such purposes as housing maintenance and  9 new construction and the other community  10 infrastructure kinds of projects that were to be made  11 or to be undertaken as a result of the appropriations  12 made to the agency.  13 Q   Thank you. I do have a few questions about the annual  14 report which is at tab 4 of this book.  Perhaps I  15 could ask you to turn to that.  And that appears to me  16 to be the annual report for April, or the semi-annual  17 report for April, 1967, and I wish to refer first to  18 something which Mr. Macaulay read to you on page 3 of  19 that report.  It's the fourth paragraph down under the  20 heading "Band Council Administration", and my note is  21 that he read this paragraph:  22  23 "All bands in this agency have completed their  24 annual revenue budgets for 1967-'68.  This is  25 the first time that the Cheslatta and Omineca  26 bands have prepared a budget.  The total  27 proposed expenditure by all bands in this  28 agency in 1967 amounts to $18,800, the largest  29 proposed expenditure since they began using  30 their funds."  31  32  33 If we could just turn back now for a moment to page  34 2, really the penultimate paragraph on that page,  35 under the heading "Community Organization" it reads:  36 "All bands in the District Council..."  pausing there  37 for a minute, that would be the bands in your agency  38 as they get together in this Lakes District Council?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q.  41  42 "...agreed to have their band's share of B. C.  43 Special funds credited to band funds in  44 1967-'68 for subsequent expenditure through  45 their revenue budgets.  During the past two  46 years these funds have gone to the district  47 council where a budget was prepared according 22983  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 to the needs of the whole agency. We are  2 apprehensive as to what the loss of funds will  3 have on the continued life of the district  4 council."  5  6  7 My particular interest, Mr. Mclntyre, is to confirm  8 that B. C. Special funds were part of the band funds,  9 part of the funds that the various bands spent and  10 budgeted for during this period; can you confirm that  11 that's —  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   -- that I am reading those two paragraphs together  14 correctly?  15 A   Yes, hm-hmm.  16 Q   Now, I have got some questions now about documents  17 that aren't in your binder, and I am afraid that I  18 only have one copy of this book, it's Exhibit 1202,  19 provincial general documents, and I am going to have  20 to impose on Mr. Macaulay's pile of books here to come  21 and -- what I have got before you, Mr. Mclntyre, is  22 the tab number 99 in Exhibit 1202, and it's a  23 collection of documents that pertain generally  24 speaking to something called the Indian Advisory  25 Committee, and they -- they are not all one document,  26 there is some minutes of meetings and some letters and  27 some internal correspondence I am going to ask about  28 some of the documents in this tab here.  29 First of all, the very first item here is dated  30 February 20th, 1962, and it's identified as "Minutes  31 of the fourth meeting of Indian Advisory Committee to  32 the Indian Commissioner for B. C. for the expenditure  33 of the B. C. Special vote" and the date of the  34 meeting.  Now, 1962, were you the assistant  35 superintendent in Merritt?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And what agency was that?  38 A   The Nicola Agency.  39 Q   The Nicola Agency.  Thank you.  And during your tenure  40 there, were you aware of the existence of something  41 known as the Indian Advisory Committee and so on, as  42 it's described there?  43 A   I probably was at the time but I don't recollect it  4 4 now.  45 Q   You don't have a specific recollection of it now?  46 A   No, it was a committee that I didn't participate on.  47 Q   There is no suggestion in this document that you were 22984  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  at this meeting or that you were a member of this  committee.  Do you recall -- you have a recollection now of  what the Indian Advisory Committee to the Indian  Commissioner for B. C. for the expenditure of the B.C.  Special vote did?  A   No, I don't have any recollection.  Q   There is a letter here that later on in this tab, it's  dated April 30, 1962 and it appears to be addressed to  all superintendents except Fort St. John, from the  Indian Commissioner for B. C. and then it's entitled  B. C. Special vote and it's authored by Mr. Boys, who  was then, to your knowledge, the Indian Commissioner  for B. C?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  Is that still tab 99?  MR. PLANT:  This is another document in tab 99, my lord.  Q   It says here:  "You have, no doubt, presented to the  various band councils the results of the fourth  meeting of the Indian Advisory Committee, B. C.  Special vote, held January 18th and 19th of this year.  Branch has asked that we obtain the opinion of the  band councils on the recommendations made by the  committee with particular reference to that dealing  with the size of the committee itself and the  replacement of one member each year.  Would you please  ascertain the reactions of the councils in this regard  and forward it to this office."  Do you recall that document coming into your hands  as assistant superintendent?  A   No.  And the reason why I probably don't remember is  that that kind of a matter would probably have been a  matter that would have been dealt with by the  superintendent of the Nicola Agency rather than his  assistant.  Q   Right.  Thank you very much, Mr. Mclntyre.  I have no  more questions.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Grant?  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  MR.  GRANT:  Q  By the time you came to Burns Lake and became the  superintendent, it appears from a review of what you  described as your experience, you had, Mr. Mclntyre,  some years of experience in working with Indian people  in British Columbia, would you agree with that? 22985  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And do you agree with -- in one of the documents, you  3 may recall there was a report on adult education in  4 one of your -- appended to one of your annual reports.  5 You reviewed the annual reports at tabs one to seven  6 prior to giving evidence, didn't you?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   To help you remember some of the events?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And you recall that, seeing that report?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And one of the comments that the teacher or the author  13 of that report made -- I take it you weren't the  14 author of that report, it sounds like it came from the  15 person in charge of the programme, is that right, the  16 adult education report, or do you remember?  17 A   Do you have a copy of that report?  18 Q   I will take you to the copy now.  It's at tab 2 of  19 your book.  Yes, the very last, actually it's Peter  20 Amyoony, very last page.  21 A   Number 12599?  22 Q   Well, unfortunately, they are all stamped 12599, all  23 of these reports.  So at the very last page at tab 2.  24 A   It's entitled Report on Adult Education Courses for  25 Natives, Burns Lake, October to December; is that  26 right?  27 Q   I am talking about the very last page.  Go right to  28 the last page.  Peter Amyoony, you knew him, and he  29 was -- what was his position?  30 A   I recall him to be a lay teacher of the parochial, of  31 the Catholic parochial school in Burns Lake, who  32 involved himself and was indeed interested in  33 educating or educational matters of the Indian people  34 in and around Burns Lake.  35 Q   Okay.  Now, he says under general comments on that  36 same page that, "I feel that the structure of such a  37 course..."  he is referring to the adult educational  38 courses,  "...should first and foremost have an  39 interest in the native people, not as statistics or  40 something to be studied by rather as people.  He  41 should understand something of the social,  42 psychological psychological and ethical factors  43 involved in dealing with and communicating with these  44 people."  45 Now, just leaving it at those two comments, would  46 you agree that those -- that those attributes would be  47 an asset in the position that you held as well as 22986  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  THE COURT  24  MR. GRANT  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  THE COURT  47  MR. GRANT  superintendent in the Burns Lake Agency?  Yes.  And I take it from some of your comments in your  evidence that you did and you have maintained an  interest in the native people through your work?  Yes.  Would that be a fair comment?  Yes.  And when you were -- when you came to Burns Lake -- I  am sorry, you came there from which area?  From the Merritt area.  Right.  You were aware that you were dealing with a  different aboriginal group than you were dealing with  in the Nicola area?  Yes.  Did you undertake to understand something of the  social factors of the Burns Lake Indian people that  you were involved with?  Yes.  And the ethical factors?  To the extent that one has time to do these things in  the day-to-day activities of administering an agency.  :  I am not sure that word is ethical, is it?  :  I think -- thank you, my lord.  I think it's  ethnical, and I don't know if there is a word  ethnical.  But I will -- in any event, you have answered my  questions about ethical factors, even though that is  not the word there.  But you would have -- you did  make some effort to understand the culture and the  social structure of the people that you worked with;  is that right?  Yes.  And, in fact, that's one of -- you have reflected that  and you were knowledgeable about the clans of the  people at Burns Lake, I think you have even listed  those today from memory?  Some of them, I don't know if I have listed all of  them or not.  All right.  Can you go back to Mr. Amyoony's report at  the first page, this is just so that you -- this would  appear to be October to December and it's appended to  your April, 1966 report, so it implies that it might  be from October to December of 1965.  I am saying that  because of the report it's attached to.  :  Which is April 1st, '66?  :  Which is April 1st, 1966. 22987  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Now, if you go back four pages --  2 A   Yes, I think it's mentioned that I have attached that  3 report in my brief discussions on my report, page  4 four.  5 Q   Right.  Now, can you go to the front of the adult  6 education report itself, the Amyoony report, the first  7 page talking about attendance.  The second paragraph:  8 "Allowing for bad weather on a few school nights and a  9 funeral on one occasion, I was very pleased with the  10 attendance."  Now, first of all, where was this adult  11 education course, was it in Burns Lake itself?  12 A   Yes, in Burns Lake.  13 Q   Now -- and this was in October to December period.  Do  14 you know what funeral he was referring to?  15 A   No, I have no idea.  I can't recall.  16 Q   You would agree with me that this course of course was  17 was a course for the Indian people in Burns Lake?  18 A   Oh, yes.  19 Q   And that it would be a fair assumption that the  20 funeral he was talking about was a funeral event of an  21 Indian person?  22 A   I am most certain it was, yes.  23 Q   And you're aware that the feasting, that feasting  24 occurred after funerals in your district, you have  25 made some mention of that?  26 A   Potlatch, which -- the term feasting was never used in  27 the Burns Lake area, like I know it to be used in the  28 Hazelton area.  The common term used by Indian people  29 in the Burns Lake area was potlatch.  30 Q   You know that -- and what did you understand when they  31 were talking about potlatch they were referring to?  32 A   That it was a -- the occasion upon which the  33 obligation of a clan other than the clan of the  34 deceased, as the Indian people told me, they paid back  35 the bills or something like that.  36 Q   And you didn't attend such a potlatch in Lake Babine,  37 you have indicated to Mr. Macaulay?  38 A   No.  39 Q   Although invited.  But did you attend any such  40 feasting or potlatching in Burns Lake?  41 A   No.  42 Q   You would agree, though, you were knowledgeable that  43 these events would occur in the evenings or in the  44 night?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And that if -- and that that this adult education  47 course occurred in the evening from reading your 229?  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 report?  2 A   Probably, yes.  3 Q   You would agree that there could have been potlatches  4 in Burns Lake of which you were not aware when there  5 were deaths?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Now, when I read through the reports, tabs one through  8 five inclusive, of your -- taking them as a whole, it  9 appeared to me that one of the ongoing problems that  10 you attempted to resolve in your tenure in Burns Lake  11 was the problem of housing shortages, would that be  12 fair to say?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And that when you came there, you saw that as a  15 significant problem and it was one of the areas that  16 you focused on in your work there at least as  17 reflected in your reports?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And you would agree with that?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   The other aspect that I see in your reports and we can  22 just turn to tab 1 for a moment as an example, page 2  23 of -- page 1 of tab 1.  You have a sub heading,  24 "Management and Development of Resources", okay?  The  25 very first page of tab 1?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And you see that, and that heading appears in many of  28 your reports, it may be all of them in fact, but it's  29 certainly a sub heading you used.  But when I read  30 through the content of it would it be fair to say when  31 you talk about the management and development of the  32 resources, you were focusing, as was your mandate, on  33 the resources that were located on those reserves  34 within your agency?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And you did not generally deal with the question of  37 management and development of resources off the  38 reserves, they weren't within your --  39 A   They weren't within my jurisdiction or area of  40 responsibility or whatever you choose to call it.  41 Q   Whenever we see the management and development of  42 resources in your reports, we should keep in mind that  43 we are talking about on-reserve resources?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   I think you are taking about agriculture resources,  46 leasing of reserve lands to get revenue for bands and  47 this kind of thing? 22989  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Now, one of the four bands that you have described as  3 your administrative area, Mr. Mclntyre, was the  4 Cheslatta band, and you are knowledgeable, if I may  5 refer you to your -- my friend's aide memoire, which  6 is I think it's exhibit -- it's a reduction of the  7 exhibit -- that Cheslatta actually had many parcels  8 but it was all indicated as Cheslatta number one but  9 there are, I think, ten parcels that I have counted  10 here?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And those parcels are widely dispersed throughout the  13 area between Oootsa Lake and Francois Lake?  14 A   That's a fair statement, yes.  15 Q   And they are interspersed of what was reserves of the  16 Omineca band?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Yesterday in your evidence you indicated that this was  19 unusual in terms of reserve administration to have  20 interspersing of two bands rather than having one band  21 dealing with a territorial area?  22 A   Yes, I think it's unusual, yes.  23 Q   And you were aware of the circumstances which led to  24 Cheslatta, the Cheslatta Number One Reserve being  25 created?  26 A   In those nine or ten parcels that comprised that  27 reserve, yes, I am.  28 Q   And you are aware that the Cheslatta band was formerly  29 located on Cheslatta Lake?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And if we again look at the aide memoire here, you  32 would agree with me that Cheslatta Lake is outside of  33 the black boundary, but these parcels of Cheslatta  34 number one are within the boundary?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And you are aware that that occurred around -- in the  37 early 1950s, that move of the Cheslatta people?  38 A   That's my understanding, yes.  39 Q   Okay.  Well, I should correct myself here, on Exhibit  40 1221, the reserve general abstracts which were  41 tendered by the Federal Crown, tab 15, my lord, the  42 first entry relates to Cheslatta and it's order-in-  43 council P. C. 13255, 1964-931, and it's a transfer  44 from Canada to the Cheslatta band of Indians the  45 parcels of land as described in Schedule "A" attached  46 and it's lands set apart for the use and benefit of  47 the Cheslatta band of Indians as Cheslatta I.R. No. 1, 22990  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 land purchase to replace certain reserves of the band  2 sold to the Aluminum Company of Canada.  That's your  3 understanding of what happened there?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And this reserve general register, while you were the  6 administrator in Burns Lake, you would have had a copy  7 of this within your agency office, wouldn't you?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Now, are you aware that the Cheslatta people -- you  10 described this afternoon that the Cheslatta people, to  11 your knowledge, did not feast as the Lake Babine  12 people did?  13 A   Not to my knowledge.  14 Q   Right.  Are you aware that the Cheslatta people were a  15 different aboriginal group than the Lake Babine  16 people?  17 A   I really had no firm idea in my mind.  I suspected  18 that they were, but on the other hand they all spoke  19 the same language or appeared to understand each other  20 whenever they met, so I was never totally clear in my  21 mind as to whether they were or were not.  22 Q   Did you pick up any words of the language?  23 A  Very few.  24 Q   Or languages?  25 Okay.  Now, one of the initiatives that you  26 endeavoured to proceed with, while you were the -- in  27 your first days, was -- is set out at tab 1, and I  28 know this is sometime ago so I don't want to surprise  29 you, I would like you to have a chance to look at  30 this.  If you look at page 3, Mr. Mclntyre, it has  31 Cheslatta and Omineca bands amalgamation.  "We have  32 had no success in our attempts to amalgamate the  33 Cheslatta and Omineca bands."  34 If I may stop there, would it be fair to say, and I  35 am going to go on, but would it be fair to say that as  36 the administrative, senior administrative officer for  37 the Burns Lake Agency, your agency office was  38 motivated for administrative purposes to combine these  39 two bands whose reserves were so proximate to each  40 other and interspersed amongst each other, was that  41 the reason for amalgamating them?  42 A   That was part of the reason.  I think there was  43 another reason as well, and the other reason was that  44 there appeared to be a real absence of leadership  45 capability at the time within the Cheslatta band which  46 there appeared to be, on the other hand, some  47 leadership capability within the membership of the 22991  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Omineca band.  And it was to -- it was partly, not  2 totally I admit, but partly felt by myself and others  3 who were there before me, that the Cheslatta band  4 might enjoy a better quality of band leadership were  5 they to amalgamate with the band. So certainly there  6 was administrative convenience as well.  7 Q   If they amalgamated with the Omineca band?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   But would you agree with me, and your report indicates  10 that you, for example, did go down to the Cheslatta  11 area, the Grassy Plains area on the Cheslatta  12 reserves?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And that's an area that was farms, individual farms  15 that were parcels, that were transferred to Cheslatta?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   The Cheslatta people on these individual parcels were  18 much more spread out than most of your bands, would  19 you agree with that?  20 A   Yes, hmm.  It was virtually a situation of one family  21 per parcel and that was, you know, that was just a  22 fact that there was very little membership cohesion  23 between these people because of that geographical  24 separation of one family from another.  25 Q   Would it be fair to say that in your time there was no  26 community of Cheslatta, that is no one place where  27 people could get together?  28 A   That's fair to say, yes, yes.  29 Q   And from your subsequent work would you agree that  30 that really has remained the same?  31 A   Yes, I believe that situation exists today.  32 Q   Now, I did say I would go on and I don't want to not  33 go on in this statement on page 3 of your report: "The  34 Omineca band have agreed to amalgamate but the  35 Cheslatta band remain unwilling.  Personal  36 differences, lack of understanding and the lack of a  37 tangible advantage appear to be the reasons behind the  38 reluctance of the Cheslatta band."  39 You would agree that if the Cheslatta people were  40 different than the Omineca people, this would be  41 another reason as well for their reluctance to join  42 with the Omineca band?  43 A   I think I have covered that under personal  44 differences.  45 Q   That's if they were different people?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Fair enough.  Of course from your description at this 22992  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 stage, if the amalgamation had gone through and from  2 your description of the relatively good leadership  3 among the Omineca people, as compared to the  4 Cheslatta, the Cheslatta people would really have come  5 within the Omineca leadership, that's what you foresaw  6 would have happened?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   If you could just go to tab 1, part two, this would be  9 right after page six, my lord.  This is under  10 management of resources.  Just as a clarification, Mr.  11 Mclntyre, because I wasn't exactly sure, you have your  12 reports in two parts, is the second part an earlier  13 interim report or do you remember?  It seems to cover  14 some of the same areas, although it's certainly a  15 different discussion.  Do you remember why you had  16 them in two parts?  17 A   I am sorry, I can't remember.  18 Q   That's fine.  Thank you.  Anyway, under part two, you  19 had agriculture, and you said:  "In those areas where  20 there is indication of Indian interest and potential,  21 we will continue our programme of breaking, clearing  22 and fencing of Indian lands.  Most of this work will  23 be carried out in the southern area of the agency for  24 members of the Cheslatta and Omineca bands."  Here you  25 were talking about that area that I pointed out to you  26 on the map between Francois and Ootsa lakes?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And you will agree that as opposed to logging and as  29 opposed to trapping, that that area was primarily at  30 the time you were there, cleared agricultural land,  31 that is the reserve lands?  32 A   Yes, agriculture appeared to offer the best  33 opportunities, you know, other than seasonal logging  34 activities that might be available as an employment  35 source to members of those bands, yes.  36 Q   Do you recall whether that was a prime logging area at  37 the time you were there in that region?  38 A   No, I don't think I considered it then to be a prime  39 logging area.  It was across the lake, there were a  40 lot of private landholders there and a lot of  41 private -- and a lot of logging on private land  42 holdings.  So, it -- the opportunities to me at the  43 time appeared to be more more in the agriculture area,  44 insofar as reserve development was concerned.  There  45 was very little standing timber on Indian reserve  46 lands.  47 Q   If, for example, the Cheslatta people or the Omineca 22993  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  THE COURT  26  MR. GRANT  27  THE COURT  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  MR. GRANT  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  people that were living down there wished to be  engaged in the logging area they would -- the better  logging developments would have been north of Francois  Lake at that time?  Well, no, they had opportunities to go logging to or  obtain logging and small saw milling jobs for  non-natives that were in the area.  But there were no  sizeable sawmills, they were small, they were small  bush mills and consequently, small bush operations  that were going on there at the time, and still do go  on.  The larger scale logging operations, as you say,  tended to occur in the area north of Burns Lake and in  recent years, in the area south and west of -- or  south and east of Ootsa Lake.  Yesterday you mentioned about the split between the  Omineca band at Broman Lake and Neetahbhun bands  respectively.  Do you recall when that occurred?  After -- it occurred after I left Indian Affairs.  Okay.  It occurred while you were with special ARDA?  Yes.  That's your -- you don't recall when --  No, when I left Indian Affairs they were still  identified as the Omineca band.  Okay.  So that happened after 19 --  '82 that would be.  After 19 -- well, you were there at Burns Lake from  '64 to '69, it hadn't happened then?  No, it hadn't happened up until the beginning of 1982  either.  It was sometime after the beginning of 1982  that apparently occurred and, in fact, I believe it  occurred some several months in fact after I became  aware that it had occurred.  It was only through a  casual conversation with one of my former co-workers  at Indian Affairs that I discovered that this  separation had occurred.  It occurred several months before this conversation?  Yes.  You said after.  I think you meant before.  Yes.  Okay.  Now, you know where Broman Lake, the Broman  Lake band is located?  I know where Broman Lake is, yes.  And you know where the band offices are at Broman  Lake?  Yes. 22994  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  THE  COURT  30  31  MR.  GRANT  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  Q  37  38  A  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  THE  COURT  42  43  44  (PR'  45  46  47  And they are close to Broman Lake?  Yes.  And if we look at the south shore of Francois Lake,  between Francois and Ootsa, as the Neetahbun are, that  is those former Omineca band reserves, become  Neetahbhun, you know where those are located and where  that band facility would be located at Neetahbhun?  Yes.  And you would agree with me that these two locations,  these two communities, were very far apart  geographically?  Yes.  And also in terms of travel facility they were far  apart because you have to take a ferry across and some  time to get from one to the other?  Yes, probably an hour's distance between existing band  offices.  :  Tell me again where Broman Lake is?  :  Broman Lake is on Highway 16 and it would be, jsut  off Highway 16, is it not?  Well, it's, for all intents and purposes, is right on  Highway 16 between Topley and the community of --  Roses Lake?  Yes.  So what is on the map is Duncan Lake number two in  fact that would be the Broman Lake --  I think Broman Lake is just one of the other little  lakes besides Duncan Lake.  :  Just north of the claimed territory, external  boundary, is it?  :  No, it's just within, my lord, if you see -- it's  labelled as Duncan Lake number two but that would be  the Broman Lake reserve now.  :  Oh, yes.  : Topley and Ross Lake on Highway 16.  There is a series of lakes there, Duncan Lake and  Broman Lake are close together?  I think they are right side by side.  :  I note the time my lord, maybe you wish to break  now.  :  Yes, all right.  We will adjourn until 2 o'clock  please.  Thank you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH) 22995  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Wilf Roy  Official Reporter 22996  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  (P  2  3  THE COURT  4  MR. GRANT  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS)  :  Mr. Grant.  :  Thank you, my lord.  Mr. Mclntyre, my understanding from looking at the  later documents is that when you -- since 1982, since  you've become involved with DREE, that department, and  with special ARDA you have had contact not only with  Indian people in Burns Lake, but Indian people in the  Hazelton area.  That's correct?  Yes.  And you've had contact with people from the Burns Lake  area as well, I assume?  Yes, that's correct.  Where would your special ARDA work take you?  What  region or area would you cover?  Well, there has been changes in the geographical area  over the years, but the Hazelton area.  The area that  I think you are concerned, or this court case is  concerned with has always been -- has always included  the Hazelton area.  I have travelled occasionally as  far north as the Yukon boundary, and occasionally as  far -- as far west as Prince Rupert, and occasionally  as far south as the Kootney's, but those have been the  exceptions rather than what I might call the rule.  The Burns Lake area has always been in your area?  Oh, yes.  And Burns Lake and the Hazelton area.  And how far  west have you usually gone?  Usually as far as Kitwanga.  Okay.  You have heard the term Carrier, have you not?  Yes.  You've heard the term Gitksan?  Yes.  You've heard the term Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  And the term Nutsone?  No.  You knew Paddy Isaac?  No.  He was deceased by the time I had gone to Burns  Lake.  You knew Michell Alec?  No.  He was deceased as well by the time you left there?  I believe so, yes.  Is it correct to say that in your dealings in Burns  Lake in the 1964 period and following, and even when 22997  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 you were in Prince George, with Indian Affairs you  2 dealt with Indian people as band members?  When I say  3 that is that you -- that was how you worked with  4 people was through -- not necessarily through the  5 bands, but if you looked at an individual you were  6 determining what band he was in, for example, as  7 opposed to say whether the person was a Cheslatta, a  8 Nutsone, a Wet'suwet'en, a Gitksan?  You would look at  9 him, well that person's a member of the Moricetown  10 band, or he's a member of the Omineca band.  That's  11 sort of the way your administration would work?  12 A  Well, whenever there was a need for me to prepare  13 documentation that involved the naming of certain  14 individuals certainly I in addition to their name and  15 in my correspondence, not with them so much but with  16 my headquarters people, I was expected and did refer  17 to their band name and band number.  18 Q   M'hm.  19 A   But as far as being consciously aware of, yeah, I knew  20 that they were members of the Cheslatta band and  21 Omineca band and that they were -- that they were  22 Carrier speaking people.  And what else can I say?  23 Q   Okay.  Well, let us take the case of Mathew Sam and  24 Christine Holland and that estate that you have some  25 involvement with that Mr. Macaulay asked you about.  26 And let's just take the case of estates generally, if  27 I may.  Did you have any knowledge or awareness of how  28 the Carrier people that you worked with, how  29 descendancy operated within their system at that time?  30 A   I was not given to understand during the course of my  31 conversation that there was any -- that there was  32 any -- there was any real significance in this regard.  33 The fact that they came to me occasionally and asked  34 for my assistance in the preparation of wills  35 suggested to me that there was not any strong feeling  36 on their part that some other -- that some other  37 system prevailed.  The fact that they came to me to  38 help them prepare a will of itself gave me to  39 understand that they wanted to -- to do things their  40 way.  And as for that -- that event relating to their  41 custom or to -- or not to their custom was really  42 not -- was not a thing upon which I focused.  43 Q   You were aware of the Indian Act provisions with  44 respect to estates?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   You had to administer them, I dare say.  47 A   Oh, yes. 2299?  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q   And you are aware and agree that under Indian Act  2 regulations that a will or no valid will provided on  3 intestatacy the estate of an Indian generally  4 followed -- went by matrilineal descent.  You would  5 agree with that?  You know what I mean by matrilineal  6 descent?  7 A   There were regulations pursuant to that section of the  8 Indian Act that occasionally came into play, but I  9 will tell you that I was aware that there was -- that  10 there was in some bands a matrilineal consciousness or  11 a preference, or something of that nature, but I never  12 felt that that was a strong feeling during the course  13 of my dealings with Indian people.  I was --  14 Q   You didn't deal with that?  15 A   I was never given information by the Indian people  16 that suggested that that was -- that was a strong  17 cultural thing to which they attached.  18 Q   But, for example, with Lake Babine you agreed that the  19 potlatch was a strong cultural thing to which they  20 attached?  21 A   Yes.  But I didn't see that by and large terribly  22 contradictory to a lot of things that were going on at  2 3              the time.  24 Q   Would you not agree that if you had attended a  25 potlatch your view may have been different, but you  26 really can't comment on that would impact on other --  27 A   No, I don't.  28 Q   You don't know how, because my understanding of your  29 evidence is that you have actually never gone to a  30 potlatch within your agency?  31 A   I was never made to feel very welcome there except on  32 one or two occasions when I was actually invited.  33 Even then when I was invited I wasn't sure of the  34 authority of the person who invited me that I should  35 attend or that I should actually -- that I should  36 actually attend.  After all I was a government person  37 and I was sensitive to -- to treading into areas of --  38 of Indian life where perhaps I ought not to be.  39 Q   On the occasions on which you were invited to attend a  40 potlatch was it when you had attended a funeral?  41 A   I never attended a funeral by my own policy.  42 Q   Was that by your own policy, is that what you're just  43 referring to?  44 A   Yes.  My -- because I felt to attend one funeral would  45 show a measure of respect or something to one  46 individual that I might not choose to show to another  47 person.  And there was no way that I could attend all 22999  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 of the funerals of --  2 Q   Right.  3 A   Of people in my area so I felt the best -- the best  4 thing to do in the circumstances was to -- was to  5 politely express my condolences, but not to actually  6 attend the funeral.  7 Q   Can you -- something else comes through your reports,  8 Mr. Mclntyre.  It appears from your reports that you  9 made an effort to improve the relations between Indian  10 people and non-Indian people in your agency.  Would  11 that be a fair statement?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   During your tenure?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And it also appears -- in fact, I believe you were  16 involved in encouraging and setting up a committee, I  17 can't recall the name of it, but it's reflected in  18 your report.  You recall that, what I'm referring to?  19 You're nodding affirmatively.  You just have to  20 speak for the record.  You agree with that?  21 A  M'hm.  Yes.  22 Q   It also appears that when you came to Burns Lake one  23 of the problems that you set about to try to help  24 alleviate was racism within the community.  That is  25 the attitude of non-Indians towards Indians was a  26 racist attitude.  You would agree with that?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And your reports reflect what you did.  Not  29 necessarily everything, but obviously the kinds of  30 things you try to do to improve that relationship.  31 When you got there there were Babine Lake Indians that  32 had prior to your arrival moved into Burns Lake.  33 That's your evidence; is that right?  34 A   That is correct.  35 Q   And, in fact, the way -- and I think it's  36 W-A-Y-E-N-N-E Indian reserve was a reserve that you  37 assisted in creating while you were there from Burns  38 Lake, is that right, or transferring --  39 A   The reserve had been created prior to my arrival.  4 0 Q   Good.  Yeah.  41 A   But I was involved in the enlargement of that reserve.  42 And I was involved in -- in the naming of that  43 reserve.  44 Q   That is W-O-Y-E-N-N-E?  45 A   Yes.  The common pronounciation is Woyenne.  46 Q   Woyenne?  47 A   Right. 23000  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  THE COURT  11  A  12  THE COURT  13  A  14  THE COURT  15  MR. GRANT  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  And where does that name come from that you were  involved in?  It was a name that was devised by the council of the  band at the time.  And I believe it has something to  do with the -- with the ability to see the sunset in  the -- in the southwestern horizon of that area  because --  From that --  Because the area has a southerly slope to it.  :  How is it spelled again?  W-O-Y-E-N-N-E.  :  W-O-Y-E-N-N-E?  Right.  :  Thank you.  So that name is a name in the Carrier language?  Yes.  And you encouraged -- you encouraged or at least  supported the band's desire to have the name reflect  something from their own society, I take it?  Yes.  As the superintendent, and if I remember your evidence  correctly, the Woyenne reserve was a reserve that came  under the administration ultimately of the Lake Babine  band?  Yes.  Is that right?  M'hm.  And that's what I was referring to when Mr. Macaulay  suggested that I didn't know what was outside the  area.  I thought that was your evidence.  And I  understand as well from the documents in your reports  and from your own reports that one reason why you --  you encouraged that to come under the administration  of the Lake Babine band was so it would be a place for  the Lake Babine people who had moved into Burns Lake  area to live under their own administration; is that  right?  The encouragement and original establishment of that  reserve, it was formerly part of a Burns Lake Indian  reserve number 18, was actually initiated by Mr.  Desmarais, who was the Indian superintendent in Burns  Lake who I replaced.  Could you spell the name?  D-E-S-M-A-R-A-I-S.  So, in effect, he had done most of  the paperwork that was necessary to transfer the  ownership of a portion of the Burns Lake Indian 23001  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 reserve from the Burns Lake band to the Lake Babine  2 band.  3 Q   M'hm.  4 A   The paperwork had not been completed when I arrived  5 there.  6 Q   So you finished the job?  7 A   The name -- the new name and number had not yet come  8 into existence so I encouraged that.  And the outcome  9 was -- was the naming of that reserve and the  10 numbering of it.  And, secondly, I was then  11 subsequently involved in the negotiations that  12 occurred between the Lake Babine band and the Burns  13 Lake band for a further purchase of additional land  14 which was then added to Woyenne IR number 27 from a  15 portion of Burns Lake IR number 18.  16 Q   Okay.  And that's reflected in your reports, if I can  17 recall rightly, that later transfer?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   You are familiar with the hardship that the Lake  20 Babine people had faced prior to getting land where  21 they could live on in Burns Lake when they moved in?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   You're familiar with that from your review of the  24 files and knowledge of that?  25 A   Oh, yeah.  26 Q   And are you aware of an area of Burns Lake on the road  27 to Pendleton Bay where just off the road -- the road  28 from highway 16 goes off and there's a junction with  29 the road to Pendleton Bay.  You're familiar with that?  30 A  M'hm.  31 Q   And there was a former Burns Lake dump in that area?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And the area was known as the dump pile?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And that was an area where up until in the '50s the  36 Lake Babine Indians were effectively squatting?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And they had no -- at that time from your review and  39 knowledge of the records and the history at that time  40 they didn't have housing, they didn't have plumbing,  41 they were in -- not in a very good situation, and they  42 didn't have the housing provided that you in your term  43 assisted to provide?  44 A   That is correct.  45 Q   Okay.  Now, another feature that in an analysis of  46 your report -- of your reports -- by the way, these  47 reports at tabs 1 to 5 they end in September of '87. 23002  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Does this encompass all of your annual reports while  2 you were in Burns Lake?  3 A  Well, sometime during my term in Burns Lake there  4 ceased to be a requirement for these reports, and I  5 have to tell you that I can't recall exactly when that  6 happened, and therefore I can't tell you whether or  7 not the documents in my book comprise or do not  8 comprise all of my semi-annual reports.  9 Q   I see.  10 MR. MACAULAY:  We couldn't find any reports after the report tab  11 5, which is the report for October 1st, 1967.  There's  12 a file that had them all in.  That's all there was.  13 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, Mr. Macaulay.  14 Q   Can you go to page four of tab 1.  And this is another  15 theme that appears throughout your reports, it seems  16 to me, and I just want to be sure that my --  17 A   Page four?  18 Q   Yeah, page four of tab 1.  That would be part one,  19 too.  20 A   Okay.  21 Q   Are you there?  You see "Development in Band Council  22 Administration"?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And here you say:  25  26 "While positive improvements have been noticed  27 in some of the Band Councils in this Agency, it  28 is apparent that we shall have to hold more  29 meetings to provide additional contact with  30 these leaders in order to increase their rate  31 of development.  Since attendance at meetings  32 is difficult for reason of expense and  33 distance, additional means for compensation for  34 loss of wages and expense will have to be  35 found.  This is particularly evident by the  36 Lake Babine Band who usually meet at Burns  37 Lake."  38  39 And then you describe where some of those  40 councillors are coming from as far away as 150 miles  41 at Babine.  42 A  M'hm.  43 Q   Now, would it be correct from -- from a reading of  44 your reports, this appears to me to be the case, that  45 when you came in to Burns Lake, Mr. Mclntyre, that  46 more of the administration at that time was being  47 carried out directly by the agency office, by the 23003  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47    ]  MR. GRANT  departmental staff, and over the course of your time  you were there in some form of a transition where you  encouraged the development of band leadership and that  band councils took on more of the administrative tasks  that had formerly been in the hands of the department  directly?  I think that's true.  And, in fact, when we look at the final report of the  series I believe it is that near the end you're even  suggesting that persons be hired as band managers who  would come in and work in the department's own -- the  agency's own office and get training there.  Do you  recall being involved in the transition or development  of actually suggesting band managers be trained?  No, I don't recall having reached that -- that stage.  But I won't quarrel with you.  Perhaps I did.  It's only a suggestion you're making in this last  report so your memory may be better.  You just say  this is something that can be done, but it appeared it  hasn't been done at the time of your final report?  I was probably setting it as a possible future  objective, but it --  Okay.  No such thing occurred during my time there.  Would it be fair to say that this rate of development  in the leaders was a rate of development that you were  encouraging among the band council and chief  councillors under the Indian Act, that's who you're  referring to as the leaders in this area?  Oh, yes.  Yes.  And would it be correct to say that you were  encouraging them to take on more of the departmental  tasks, administration?  Yes.  I think that's fair.  Okay.  And equally would it be fair to say as you've  said regarding the position you had as a government  representative that you were not here talking about  the leadership within any traditional system which you  left basically to the people to deal with as they  wanted?  Yes.  Okay.  Can you go to tab 3 for a moment.  I'm going to  return to the other tab 1, but part two, and that  would be the page immediately following, page three.  Do you have that?  Yes.  :  Do you have that, my lord? 23004  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Q   Under Community Organizations you refer to:  "Miss Marjorie Smith and Mr. Tom Brown who are  on the Indian Leadership programme will be  returning to the Burns Lake Agency in October  to work with the Councils of the Cheslatta and  Omineca Bands in particular and also to help  the Babine Lake Band prepare for Band Fund  management under section 68.  We appreciate the assistance and counselling  this team have given to Agency and our Band  Councils."  Now, this band fund management under section 68,  is this the provisions in which the department makes a  declaration that by order-in-council that a band has  reached an advanced stage of development and can  administer certain funds, is that what you were  referring to?  A   Yes.  Q   And at that point in time, at least as the time --  this is your October 1st, '66 report -- Cheslatta and  Omineca, in fact, had not done -- they were just  getting involved in making funding decisions as band  councils; is that right?  A   I think they had been involved for a year or two prior  to 1968, but —  Q   This is '66.  I'm sorry.  You may have misheard me.  A   Okay.  Fine.  Q   Yes.  Okay.  A  M'hm.  Q   And if you could just go to tab 5.  Well, that's all  right.  I already asked you regarding that.  Well, maybe I will because it may -- tab 5, page  four -- page three at the bottom actually, the Band  Council Administration.  You state:  "In the course of our meetings with the Council  of the Lake Babine Band we have been holding  discussions on the possibility of this Band  having a Band Manager."  Would it be fair to say at this time the Lake  Babine band was the one that was furthest along in 23005  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 this development of taking over administration?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   That certainly appears to be the case.  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And then you suggest that:  6  7 "Sufficient space exists in a vacant office on  8 the same floor as the Agency Office in the  9 Burns Lake Federal Building that could be used  10 to set up a Band Administration Centre."  11  12 And then you refer to the office and supplies.  13  14 "We believe an ideal situation could be made  15 for a Band Manager."  16  17 Then you suggest that:  18  19 "The biggest problem facing this Band in this  20 regard is the matter of finding a capable band  21 member for the position.  As the matter now  22 stands it is proposed that two or three  23 existing Council Members who expect to be  24 unemployed later this year, will come into our  25 office for a week or two each, and by working  26 with Agency Staff on in day to day Band  27 matters, they will become familiar with the  28 routine that a Band Manager will likely be  2 9 involved with."  30  31 The last sentence is:  32  33 "The Lake Babine Band now have a local  34 population approaching four hundred and I  35 believe that a Band Manager could do much to  36 help in the advancement of the band."  37  38 Now, from my reading of that this was where I say  39 you had your proposal, and I think this is your last  40 report in this series, in any case, that you saw.  41 Again it seems clear that administration tasks would  42 be taking over the departmental tasks, those tasks  43 that the agency was previously --  44 A   In some of them.  Not all of them, but some of them.  45 Q   Of course.  I'm not suggesting all of them.  46 Now, the other aspect that Mr. Macaulay did refer  47 you to in your reports is an aspect of employment 23006  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 opportunities.  And you refer to this, for example, at  2 tab 2, part two.  Tab 2 is your 1966 April report.  3 I'm sorry.  My lord, just one moment.  I'll refer you  4 to another.  Tab 4, I will move back to that.  I have  5 the references.  It just appears that I don't have  6 them here.  Let me just --  7 I'll come back to the employment opportunities,  8 Mr. Mclntyre, but what I was gonna ask you from a  9 review of your report you often say there is money in  10 local employment opportunities.  You use that term  11 local employment or employment for local men or things  12 like that?  13 A  M'hm.  14 Q   I just wanted to be clear whether when you used that  15 term in the employment you're referring to the area  16 around Burns Lake; is that right?  17 A   No.  To the agency as a whole.  18 Q   Well, would you be referring generally to the area  19 around Old Fort?  20 A  Well, there were -- there was nobody living at Old  21 Fort then.  There were people living at Fort Babine,  22 but they had -- they were perhaps the group of people  23 that had the least opportunities of all.  But even  24 there -- even there there was winter -- there was  25 winter employment opportunities in logging activities.  26 Q   Okay.  Well, let me -- I'm going to give you a  27 specific reference, too, because I want to be sure  28 your answer applies to them.  29 A   Okay.  30 Q   Now, in your first -- in tab 4, part two, that would  31 be the page immediately following page three, you say:  32  33 "During the greater part of 1966-67"  34  35 The second paragraph.  36  37 "This Agency did not have any reliable or  38 economical means of vehicle or boat  39 transportation in this Agency.  As a result of  40 this we were unable to visit the reserves in  41 the Agency as often as we desired to.  This  42 problem has now been solved through the  43 acquisition of new vehicles and a new launch.  44 Regular visits to all occupied reserves, at  45 least as often as twice monthly have now been  46 scheduled for the forthcoming year.  We feel  47 that these visits will improve our knowledge of 23007  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 the Agency and will result in overall  2 improvement of the administration."  3  4 This is your March 31st or your April 8, 1967  5 report.  And I take it that your comments with respect  6 to 1966-67 would equally apply to your first year  7 there in 1965, the problems of vehicles, and that was  8 a problem you had until you got these?  9 A   No.  We had a very, very poor vehicle up to this  10 point.  11 Q   Right.  12 A  And the boat that we had up until this point was  13 totally unsuitable for travel on Babine Lake.  And  14 this comment relates to a new vehicle or vehicles, one  15 at least, that we had acquired at that point in time,  16 and a new larger size boat.  17 Q   Right.  What I meant was your comment:  18  19 "During the greater part of 1966-67 this Agency  20 did not have any reliable or economical means  21 of vehicle or boat transportation in this  22 Agency."  23  24 That comment applied equally to 1965.  You didn't  25 lose something, in other words?  26 A  We bought a boat.  27 Q   In 1965?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Oh, I see.  30 A  And we had one very poor vehicle up to that point, so.  31 Q   Up to this time?  32 A   Yeah.  M'hm.  33 Q   Well, up to this time prior to your acquisition of the  34 new boat and the new vehicle how often would you visit  35 say Pendleton Bay?  36 A   Oh, Pendleton Bay was easy to visit.  And my  37 assistant, in fact, had a -- had a routine of once a  38 week visits to Pendleton Bay.  Even though the people  39 at Pendleton Bay did not live on Indian reserves they  40 were nevertheless part of the Lake Babine Indian band  41 and we felt an obligation that we would give them some  42 attention.  43 Q   Right.  What about -- well, of course, the Burns Lake  44 and the Lake Babine band at Woyenne were right there  45 so that was no problem?  4 6 A  M'hm.  47 Q   What about Cheslatta, how often would you go down to 2300?  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Cheslatta across the lake?  2 A  Again, my assistant travelled there once a week.  He  3 could visit with members and councils of both Omineca  4 and Cheslatta bands almost at will.  There were times  5 of the year when the lake was frozen and the -- and  6 the ferry system was out, and while it was still  7 possible for him to go there he had the choice of risk  8 a crossing on lake ice or driving away around the west  9 end of Francois Lake past Mathew Sam's home and then  10 back again in an easterly direction of those reserves.  11 There were times of the year when our travel was  12 curtailed to the southern areas.  13 Q   What about yourself, how often would you visit?  14 A   He went more often than I did.  I tended to go there  15 if there was some pressing issue or band council  16 meeting or something of that nature.  17 Q   Where would the Cheslatta band council meet?  Would  18 they meet at your offices?  19 A   Usually in somebody's home.  Or I can recall having  20 meetings in the basement of the church at Grassy  21 Plains.  And then in later years they -- they built a  22 little community hall with -- with -- and that could  23 be used for meetings.  24 Q   But the Grassy Plains church wasn't on the reserve?  25 A   Yes.  It was on parcel number nine of IR1.  26 Q   What about this community hall, was it built on --  27 A   It was built on another parcel.  28 Q   Was it on one of the parcels of the reserve?  29 A   Yes.  It was also on one of the parcels of IR1.  30 Q   What about Felix George reserve on Owen Lake, how  31 often did you --  32 A  We didn't really go there unless there was a lease  33 application.  There was no one living there.  The  34 reserve lake shore which was really a very small part  35 of the total reserve had been subdivided prior to my  36 arrival in Burns Lake and a number of lots had by then  37 been also leased and there wasn't really very much  38 more leasing that occurred, new leasing that occurred  39 after I arrived there.  40 Q   M'hm.  What about -- well, you didn't go up to -- to  41 Fort Babine, or I'm sorry, Old Fort Babine.  How often  42 did you go up to Fort Babine?  43 A   Oh, on average about once a month, except for that  44 time of the year when there was neither firm ice upon  45 which to land an aircraft or water upon which to float  46 a boat.  And there was -- at that time there was only  47 winter road access if the logging company chose to 23009  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 open a road across the swamps and through the woods.  2 And I did travel the road route on a couple of  3 occasions.  4 Q   But you went up there as much as once a month  5 yourself, or are you talking about your office staff?  6 A  My office staff.  I tended to go to Fort Babine or  7 to -- Fort Babine --  8 Q   M'hm.  9 A   -- And one or two occupied reserves on the way to Fort  10 Babine.  Those reserves being at Smithers Landing and  11 IR9 more often than my assistant.  My assistant had  12 some aversion to flying in small aircraft and I  13 didn't, and he didn't like boats and I didn't mind  14 them so we agreed between us that he would -- he would  15 tend to work in the area south of Burns Lake on  16 routine kinds of things and I would look after the  17 northern end of Babine Lake and Topley Landing and  18 places like that.  19 Q   Would it be fair to say that you as superintendent  20 that probably over 50 percent of your work was of --  21 your time while you were there would have been working  22 out of the office itself?  23 A   Yes.  I've never calculated the time, but that seems  24 reasonable.  25 Q   That would be reasonable?  26 A   Oh, yeah.  27 Q   Well over half the time you would be doing that?  28 A   Oh, yeah.  29 Q   One of the things that you said in answer to a  30 question of Mr. Macaulay was you talked about your  31 visits to people's homes.  And you said in your visits  32 to homes you didn't notice fur being prepared.  The  33 way you described it it appeared to me, and I may be  34 wrong, that you had a picture in your mind of what you  35 were thinking of when you gave that answer 'cause you  36 explained it fairly clearly.  Where were you thinking  37 of that you went?  Whose homes are you thinking of  38 that you went to that you didn't see any evidence of  39 fur -- of trapping?  I'm not -- if you can't remember  40 individuals that's fine, but really I'm asking are you  41 talking about people in Woyenne and Burns Lake reserve  42 that were proximate or are you talking about people at  43 Cheslatta?  44 A   I was in most everyone's home at one time or another  45 at various times of the year throughout the agency  4 6 throughout my time there.  47 Q   M'hm. 23010  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  THE COURT  35  A  36  37  MR. GRANT  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  During the course of my visits I saw greater evidence  of fur preparation being done at places like Smithers  Landing and Fort Babine and Topley Landing than I  did -- than I did elsewhere.  Right.  And if I didn't see fur being prepared I saw other  subtle signs of trapping activities such as snowshoes  leaning against the back door or traps hanging in the  veranda or things of that nature.  From my -- from my following, and I roughly sketched,  this isn't to bind you, but you described as your area  that Smithers Landing would be one of the northern  most villages?  The main village was, of course, at Babine, or as I  have been referring to Fort Babine right there.  Yes.  That's labelled Babine?  Another reserve right about here somewhere, and  another reserve right in here.  Of course, Old Fort  reserve --  And right here --  -- Is right here.  There were reserves, small reserves  right here.  A family or two occupying a reserve here,  and family or two occupying a reserve here, and then  the main village at Fort Babine where there was a  Hudson Bay store.  That's what's labelled Babine here?  Yes.  And you indicated two others on reserves between  Smithers Landing and Babine on the east side of Babine  Lake?  One on the east down here at Smithers Landing and one  up at IR9 right here on the west side.  Okay.  :  Where did you say Old Fort was?  Old Fort is right there.  It was a reserve where I  could find people during the summer months.  Yes.  But people did not tend to live there at all during  the winter.  Okay.  Now, so it's in these northern -- your  clarification assists, but I just want -- I think that  my point -- my understanding may still be correct that  it was in these northern more villages that you saw  more evidence of trapping and fur as you've described?  Yes.  Okay.  Can you look at tab 2, page one.  Excuse me. 23011  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 If you look in the Amalgamation of Agencies paragraph  2 there on the first page you say:  3  4 "We have given some consideration during the  5 period of how this Agency might become  6 amalgamated into a district with one or more  7 other Agencies.  We have been looking closely  8 at population centres (Indians), existing and  9 proposing industrial areas, roads, waterways,  10 communications, and locations of other  11 Government Agencies.  Thus far it appears that  12 the Burns Lake Agency could join the Babine  13 Agency."  14  15 Now, just stopping there.  Who initiated the  16 concept of the amalgamation of the agencies, was  17 that -- when I say who, was that initiative commencing  18 from your perspective from the department or the  19 branch or was that initiative commencing from the  20 clients, the bands?  21 A   That was an initiated from the Vancouver regional  22 office at the time.  23 Q   Thank you.  24 A  And those comments were written in response somewhat  25 to that initiative.  And that was my opinion at the  2 6 time --  27 Q   M'hm.  28 A   -- That that amalgamation might -- if such an  2 9 amalgamation were to occur that the department might  30 consider an amalgamation of the Burns Lake Agency with  31 the agency at Hazelton.  32 Q   Right.  33 A   But as you know what eventually happened the  34 amalgamation went the other way.  35 Q   Right.  Were you familiar with connections between  36 those -- those bands on Lake Babine and the  37 Wet'suwet'en people at Moricetown and Hagwilget?  38 A   No, not particularly.  My comments arose more as a  39 result of geographical considerations than anything  40 else.  41 Q   Those things that you refer to like roads --  42 A   In fact, what does not appear in there was my  43 suggestion that if such amalgamation between Burns  44 Lake and Hazelton would occur that consideration  45 should be given to the establishment of an office at  46 Smithers.  47 Q   Okay.  Now, the bottom of that is where you talk about 23012  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 the:  2  3 "Increased fur prices this year probably  4 resulted in a slightly increased fur catch but  5 trapping remains unpopular with most of the  6 younger Indians."  7  8 Now, my understanding of your evidence is you did  9 not go out with any trappers while you were in Burns  10 Lake?  11 A   Oh, no.  I didn't have time for that.  12 Q   No, I understand.  I understand.  I just want to be  13 sure what you did and didn't do.  And you've already  14 described that you -- you agree with me that the  15 trapping season would go what, from October to March?  16 A   To late October and --  17 Q   Into April?  18 A  Maybe into April.  I know of some beaver hunts that  19 went on as early as May.  2 0 Q   Right.  21 A   But —  22 Q   Okay.  In any event, that's about the time period?  23 A   Right.  24 Q   And did you travel out to Lake Babine during those  25 months while you were there?  26 A   Yes.  After the lake would freeze sufficient, you  27 know, for safe landing of an aircraft on the ice I  28 would go there.  29 Q   Okay.  Now, you mentioned yesterday that -- I'm  30 referring to Volume 303, page 22886.  It's probably  31 easier for you if I read it in front of you.  You were  32 asked by Mr. Macaulay:  33  34 "Q   Did you speak to band members about record  35 keeping?"  36  37 And your answer was:  38  39 "A  Yes, I did.  40 Q   In connection with trapping?  41 A   Yes, I did.  42 Q   And what -- did you give them some advice  43 in that regard?  44 A   I suggested that whenever they caught fur  45 that it might be to their long-term  46 advantage to -- to keep some records of  47 their fur catch, because I felt that one 23013  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 day those records might be useful to them.  2 Useful to them, for instance, in a, you  3 know, in a situation, you know, of a land  4 claims such as this.  There were -- there  5 was very little by way of record keeping  6 being done to my -- in my opinion by the  7 Department of Indian Affairs or by the  8 Provincial Government or by anybody, and I  9 thought it would be -- it would be  10 advantageous to Indian people to at least  11 keep their own records such as fur sales  12 slips or anything else."  13  14 And this was a suggestion, from my understanding  15 of your evidence, that you made at this time.  This  16 was in answer to questions relating to your April --  17 April 1966 report.  And this is around the time you  18 would have been making these suggestions to people?  19 A   Golly, I've been making that suggestion to people for  20 a long time.  When I started making that suggestion,  21 you know, I'm not too clear on, but I still make that  22 suggestion to them.  And I've been doing so for years.  23 Q   You were aware at this time in 1966 of the issues in  24 the minds of Indian people of their land and of land  25 claims?  26 A   No.  It wasn't -- it wasn't so much an issue of land  27 claims at that time, because there wasn't a great deal  28 of discussion that I ever overheard at that point in  29 time about land claims.  I knew that there was -- that  30 there was an opinion within the Indian community of  31 British Columbia that they had not been fairly dealt  32 with in respect to land claims.  My motivation behind  33 making that suggestion to Indian people was that I  34 was -- I was very much aware that they held traplines  35 and that some day there might be -- there might be  36 others within the Province who might -- who might envy  37 them their traplines, and it seemed to me at the time  38 that if Indian people could demonstrate use of their  39 traplines that would -- that would help them preserve  40 their entitlement to continue trapping their lines.  41 But in later years when the word land claims came into  42 more common usage, yeah, I added that to my  43 vocabulary, you know, when I talked to them.  44 Q   Well, you remember you were working in the Indian  45 Affairs office at the time of John Chretien's White  46 Paper on Indian Policy in 1969.  You remember that was  47 a crucial period in dealings of the department and 23014  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Indian people?  2 A  M'hm.  3 Q   You would agree with that?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And would it not be fair to say that you were aware of  6 the issue of land claims at that time?  7 A   Oh, yes.  But -- but land claims was not a word that  8 we commonly used by the people of whom I was dealing  9 with.  I was aware of the Nishga land claim, and that  10 there were other land claims probably on the horizon,  11 but I was only dealing with the Indians of the Burns  12 Lake area.  13 Q   Right.  I understand that, and I appreciate that the  14 people may not have used the term land claims, but you  15 were aware of the people in your clients being  16 concerned about talking about their land and their  17 traplines?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   You are aware of that?  2 0 A  M'hm.  21 Q   People had -- when you suggested to them they  22 recorded --  23 A   They commonly called them their hunting grounds.  24 Q   Right.  That kind of language you heard at that time?  25 A   Yes.  M'hm.  26 Q   You knew they were talking about places they had  27 traditionally used and were traditionally on?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   You were familiar with all that?  30 A   Oh, yes.  31 Q   That was discussed in the time you were in Burns Lake?  32 A  M'hm.  Oh, yes.  33 Q   Now, in terms of the resources, management of  34 resources here on this report that you have -- you  35 have it in front of you you talked about fur and  36 wildlife and you say:  37  38 "Most fur is caught in the immediate vicinity  39 of the reserve where the trapper can return  4 0 home each evening."  41  42 This is April of 1966.  And I think this is in  43 your -- the end of your -- probably the end of your  44 first year there.  Really it's in your first year.  45 You were there 1965-66; is that right?  4 6 A  M'hm.  47 Q   Where are you referring -- which reserves or which 23015  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 people are you talking about when you say in the  2 "immediate vicinity of the reserve"?  Are you talking  3 about those closer to Burns Lake or those that are  4 further away?  5 A   I was talking about the Indians who I perceived to be  6 trapping at the time, and they were, as I've said,  7 largely considered to me at the time to be the people  8 at Fort Babine and to a lesser extent around Topley  9 Landing.  10 Q   Okay.  On the top of the next page you state:  11  12 "Moose and deer in this area were in abundant  13 supply this winter and undoubtedly contributed  14 much to the supply of food and hides for  15 handicraft."  16  17 You would agree with me during your time at Burns  18 Lake Agency that moose and deer was an important food  19 stuff for the people, for the Indian people that you  20 were working with?  21 A   Yes.  Moose particularly for the Babine people.  Moose  22 and deer, because there were more deer available in  23 the area south of Burns Lake, and the provincial  24 wildlife officials were -- were fairly generous with  25 the Indian people in allowing them permits to take  26 these animals out of the regular hunting season.  27 Q   But they also were used -- the hides were used for  28 handicrafts?  29 A   Yes, they were.  30 Q   And this was one -- you encouraged the development of  31 a co-operative in Burns Lake relying on the  32 utilization of hides for the sale to sell handicrafts?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Sell moccasins and these kinds of crafted goods.  I  35 take it that, of course, the utilization of hides for  36 handicrafts is something -- utilization of hides for  37 moccasins and for other items was something that was  38 in existence prior to you being there?  39 A   Oh, yes.  40 Q   And you just tried to help out to see -- in terms of  41 the co-operative to see if you can -- it could be used  42 as an economic base?  43 A   The idea of the co-operative actually arose from the  44 then chief of the Lake Babine band who -- who -- who  45 felt that the ladies who produced these crafts within  46 her band might realize greater incomes by marketing  47 their own direct to the consumer rather than selling 23016  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 them in bulk to -- to -- to retailers.  2 Q   M'hm.  3 A   Or shipping them from other provinces or from  4 wherever, and so that initiative really arose more  5 with her than with myself.  6 Q   Okay.  It's something that you took on the role of  7 assisting in that initiative?  8 A   Oh, yes.  M'hm.  9 Q   On the same page you talk about the Pendleton Bay  10 developments and the fact these people, the Babine  11 Lake people who lived near Pendleton Bay were going to  12 be forced out of their houses and forced into  13 relocation.  So it appears that was stopped, that is  14 that the plans of the mill were postponed, but you  15 were on the verge of having to have a move of people  16 and relocate people from Lake Babine there?  17 A   Yes.  And I think that was behind the initiative that  18 was taken for the purchase of additional land from  19 Burns Lake IR18 which was subsequently added to IR  20 number 27.  21 Q   I see.  Okay.  Can you go to page three.  You talk  22 about winter employment.  23  24 "There were probably more job opportunities  25 locally during the past winter than there have  26 been in the past decade."  27  28 This is an example of what I was referring to here  2 9 where you're talking about employment.  And then you  30 go on to say:  31  32 "Most men found employment in logging during  33 the winter."  34  35 A   I'm sorry.  Where do you see that?  36 Q   The very top of page three.  Winter Employment.  Tab  37 2.  I'm sorry.  You may have misheard me.  You see  38 that very top.  39  40 "There were probably more job opportunities  41 locally during the past winter than there have  42 been in the past decade.  Most men found  43 employment in logging during the winter."  44  45 See that?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Here would it not be fair to say what you're talking 23017  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 about is those people in the areas of Burns Lake,  2 those people in the areas of Pendleton Bay, those  3 areas where there was employment opportunites when  4 you're talking about locally?  5 A   I would include -- I would include the area south of  6 Burns Lake, Grassy Plains, Cheslatta area.  7 Q   Okay.  But when you say locally here you're talking  8 more -- okay.  You include that area, but you wouldn't  9 be talking about that northern area of Babine or --  10 A   No.  There was ongoing logging activity at Fort Babine  11 or adjacent to Fort Babine every winter.  I think that  12 was the same at the time I wrote this report.  13 Q   And if you go down to page two of part two you see at  14 the bottom:  15  16 "We foresee an increase in industrial  17 activities in this area during the forthcoming  18 summer.  There should be" --  19  20 This is the report summary you follow?  21 A  M'hm.  22 Q   Do you have that, my lord?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q  25 "There should be no shortage of employment  26 opportunities for the local Indian people."  27  28 Once again when you're referring to the local  29 Indian people those in the vicinity of Burns Lake as  30 now we've defined including the Cheslatta and  31 Pendleton Bay area?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Okay.  Now, up above you make the comment in the -- on  34 the same page that:  35  36 "No person who is sympathetic towards the  37 Indian can live very long in Burns Lake without  38 becoming aware of a basically unhealthy  39 attitude towards the Indian by the outside  40 community.  He is considered to be a doubtful  41 individual in just about every way.  This is  42 the attitude that we must seek to change.  The  43 approach that must be taken the non-Indian will  44 involve much in the way of time and ideas.  45 Non-Indians are impressed by success stories  46 but sometimes there are failures.  We must have  47 more success stories to overbalance any theorty 2301?  R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  that the Indian is a failure as a human being."  That was a fair statement of your view and  observation of the attitude towards the Indian people  by non-Indian people in your agency at that time?  A   Yes.  Yes.  Q   Now --  THE COURT:  Should we take the afternoon adjournment, Mr. Grant?  MR. GRANT:  Certainly, my lord.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  short recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 23019  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  2  3    CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  (Continued)  4  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   I was at tab 3, page one, the heading Community  7 Organization.  The last paragraph under Community  8 Organization you refer to the -- you have referred to  9 the amendment of the Municipal Act and the creation of  10 regional district:  "Since a regional district will  11 evidently have potential jurisdiction or perhaps  12 strong presence --"?  13 A   I am sorry, I have lost you.  14 Q   Are you at tab 3?  15 A   Tab 3, page 2 under Community Organization the  16 regional district --  17 Q   "Since a regional district will evidently have  18 potential jurisdiction or perhaps strong influence..."  19 A   Yes, I follow you now.  20 Q   Mr. Macaulay suggests influence, "...over every aspect  21 of rural and municipal development, it seems that the  22 branch and the Indian people should be concerned with  23 this authority."  24 Okay.  This is part of your report?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Now, why did you feel that the Indian people should be  27 concerned with the authority of a regional district,  28 the creation of regional districts, I should say,  29 that's the language, why did you express this concern?  30 What was it?  31 A   I guess I must have had an apprehension at the time,  32 because regional districts at that point in time were  33 going to be a new -- were going to be or had become a  34 new type of or a new level of government, and the  35 contact that I had had up to that point in time with  36 regional district people or with the concept of  37 regional districts, probably left me apprehensive in  38 some ways as to what these might become and what their  39 impact might eventually prove to be vis-a-vis the  40 Indian people.  41 Q   Now, on page -- tab 5, page one, you talk in -- under  42 management and development of reserves -- of  43 resources, I should say, you refer to the initiative  44 of leasing, and you say:  45  46 "In an endeavour to increase the revenue to band  47 revenue accounts, advertising of reserve lands 23020  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 for lease was undertaken during the last  2 period."  3  4 This is sort of in the April to October, 1967  5 period; is that right?  6 A   Yes.  7 MR. GRANT:  8  9 "This involved making up plywood signs and  10 locating these signs on reserve areas  11 considered valuable for recreational purposes."  12  13 Now, this is the kind of thing you were looking at  14 with respect to the Felix George Reserve, wasn't it?  15 A   Yes, and also with respect to at least one other  16 reserve that I can recall up near Fort Babine.  17 Q   Do you recall what that reserve is called?  18 A   Casdeded I.R. No. 8.  19 Q  20  21 "The Omineca band and this agency, a band with  22 very limited revenue, was given preference on  23 this project."  24  25 Now, if I can take a look and show you my friend's  26 aide memoire, the Felix George Reserve No. 7 would  27 have been one of the reserves of the Omineca band at  28 that time?  29 A   Yes, and that was the reserve that I referred to  30 there.  31 Q   That's the reserve?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   What about Maxan Lake No. 3, Maxan Creek No. 5, Maxan  34 Lake No. 4, were those reserves that you were  35 considering at that time?  36 A   No, not at all.  In fact I have never had any reason  37 to go to Maxan Lake Reserve.  Access to them is or was  38 very difficult at the time and I have never been there  39 nor have I had any reason to go there.  40 Q   Would that equally apply to Foxy Creek, this group of  41 five reserves here?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   I don't know if you have that, my lord, it's Maxan  44 Lake No. 3 and 4 and Maxan Creek No. 5 and Foxy Creek  45 No. 6.  They are all right in the same area on the  4 6 map.  47 So -- but those are reserves of the Omineca band? 23021  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And they were at that time, you understand what I  3 mean?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   They are now under the Broman Lake band?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   So the principal reserve you were referring to in this  8 reference is Felix George Reserve?  9 A   That is correct.  10 Q   Do you know why Felix George Reserve was called Felix  11 George Reserve?  12 A   I believe it was named after Felix George.  13 Q   Okay.  You didn't know him?  14 A   No.  15 Q   Did you know that he was Wet'suwet'en?  16 A   No.  17 Q   Now, under this section, management and development of  18 resources, you were dealing with, and as you explained  19 earlier, you were dealing with the resources on  20 reserve?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And this paragraph you talk about -- in fact you  23 suggest that there was a positive response shown  24 particularly on one reserve and that was the Felix  25 George Reserve?  26 A   Yes.  2 7 Q   And  28  29 "An increase in revenue of 100 percent if and  30 when these lease applications are approved will  31 substantially encourage the council of this  32 band to make greater use of their reserve  33 resources as well as giving them valuable  34 experience in the management of band funds."  35  36 That was your comment then and that was your view  37 as to your motivation to encourage this kind of  38 development?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Now, you agree with me that the Felix George Reserve  41 was not of course created initially for this purpose  42 but it was -- it was -- firstly, that wasn't the --  43 why they had the reserve initially?  44 A   Oh, no, I believe that it was at one time a home site  45 of an Indian person or persons and their families.  46 Q   But if I may say, the dilemma you had to face is that  47 you were trying to encourage, with this respect, 23022  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  THE COURT  17  A  18  MR. GRANT  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  THE COURT  47  MR. GRANT  economic development for bands, that's -- you agree?  Yes.  And yet you had, in that encouragement, you had a very  tiny resource base to do it with?  Yes.  And so, of course, one of your options, one of the few  options was this kind of initiative where you could  encourage the band to use their resource by leasing  it?  Yes.  They had, in fact, at the time of my arrival at  Burns Lake, a number of lakeshore lots had in fact  been leased.  On Felix George or other ones?  On Felix George Reserve.  That was the situation when  I got there.  :  That's on Owen Lake?  On Owen Lake, right.  :  Yes.  And then you refer on page 2 of the same report for --  the Corporation of the Village of Burns Lake actually  applied for a lease of a residence house on Burns Lake  I.R. No. 18 and that's — that I.R. No. 18 is the  Burns Lake band reserve that's located very close to  the village of Burns Lake?  Within the Village of Burns Lake, right.  So this was another example where the band, you saw  that the band could get some revenue from its limited  resource base by leasing some of the reserve land?  Yes, the initiative in that leasing though came from  the Village of Burns Lake as opposed to anything that  I or the band, you know, instigated.  The Village of  Burns Lake, in other words, needed a place upon which  to locate a residence for their works manager, as I  recall.  Of course the Village of Burns Lake had lands off the  reserve?  Yes.  I don't see the sequence of this, did this one go  through, as far as you recall?  Yes, it did.  Now, I daresay, Mr. Mclntyre, not only were you aware  of the limited resource base but in fact from your  report, at page five, part -- I am sorry, tab 5, part  two, which in fact is page five --  Tab 5, part two, page five?  :  Page five of part two?  No.  :  Tab 5, the fifth page in, it's not numbered, my 23023  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  lord, it just says part two at the top.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Q   I expect that management and development of resources,  here you say that,  "I expect that agency staff will be busy during  the next few months in processing additional  applications for reserve leases.  Almost all  the areas we expect to be applied for are not  presently being used by Indian people,  consequently we look upon these applications  very favourably.  The increased revenues that  will result from these agreements will be of  considerable value to the respective bands.  Most of the reserves of this agency are small  in acreage and the majority are presently  unused by the Indian people.  In many cases the  reserve will have to be surrendered for leasing  and although this will involve considerable  work for agency staff we consider the time  worthwhile nevertheless."  In this context what you were trying to do was to  expand the income from the limited resource base and  you also, as you have described, you were trying to  expand some of the reserves with respect to Pendleton  Bay, in fact one of the options that you suggested in  your earlier report was to acquire provincial land for  the band members that were at Pendleton Bay, do you  recall that?  A   I don't recall that but that --  Q   That was one of the options you looked at?  A   Quite possibly, yes, I am sure I did.  Q   When you look at the summary on tab 5, you say:  "Agency staff have responded well to the  increased responsibilities..."  I am sorry, my lord, it's tab 5, page 2, the last  page of the tab.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  "Agency staff have responded well to the  increased responsibilities within the agency  caused by an increased 1967-68 programme 23024  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 workload and my own absence from the agency  2 during the period while I have been away on  3 training courses, conferences and leaves.  We  4 will continue to improve our administration in  5 the largest area of expenditure in this agency,  6 welfare of Indians, and the economic outlook  7 for the coming winter is generally the same as  8 it was during 1966-67."  9  10  11 Would it be fair to say that you endeavoured in  12 your reports to your superiors to maintain an  13 optimistic outlook for the benefits that you saw  14 coming to the -- the improvements that you saw  15 happening in your agency?  Overall you presented an  16 optimistic outlook, and I say that not to be unfair to  17 you, or to be critical, Mr. Mclntyre, I say it because  18 I read your reports, and having read them all as a  19 body, that's how it appeared to me, that you are a  20 person of some level of optimism and you saw that you  21 could improve things or assist the bands to improve  22 things and you presented that feeling, that was  23 generally your feeling as things went on?  24 A   Yes, but I didn't -- if my reports came out optimistic  25 it wasn't because I felt that I had to provide my  26 superiors with an optimistic report.  Rather, I felt  27 that I should report to them the facts as I saw them  28 and if it happened to be optimistic, so be it.  If, on  29 the other hand, there was -- and there could have been  30 a later time or earlier time when I was reporting when  31 perhaps my reports would not have had that  32 optimistic -- that optimistic flavour.  And I have --  33 Q   Wouldn't it be fair to say that when you left Burns  34 Lake you felt that the agency -- I know the agency  35 became amalgamated -- but the bands were in a better  36 situation than when you arrived?  37 A   I would like to think so, yes.  38 THE COURT:  Mr. Mclntyre, what did you mean in that passage  39 which was just read, where you say that "the largest  40 area of expenditure in this agency, welfare and  41 Indians", in what sense were you using that word?  For  42 example, were these Indians in receipt of provincial  43 welfare?  44 A   No, the provincial government, at that point in time,  45 did not bear the expense of welfare in the pure sense  46 of the word, to Indian people.  Social assistance  47 payments were funded from the federal treasury rather 23025  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  THE  COURT  3  A  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  A  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  13  14  A  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  A  19  MR.  GRANT  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  A  28  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  THE  COURT  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  37  THE  COURT  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  Q  than the provincial treasury.  :  So that meant all federally-funded?  Yes, I think I was -- I don't recall why I tailored my  words in that manner and fashion.  I think I was -- I  may have been dealing or using the word welfare in a  very broad context rather than --  :  So that would include --  Rather than only in the sense of social assistance  payments or housing improvement subsidies or the like  of that.  :  I am wondering if it's intended to refer to a  monthly payment or is it referred to monies required  for the well-being of Indians generally, or both?  The government appropriations for the well-being of  Indians generally, I would think.  :  Which included a monthly stipend for those who  needed it?  Yes.  But here you were also dealing with the things such as  the housing, capital housing, and other projects for  the band members?  Yes.  :  What about things like hospital insurance, medical  coverage and that sort of thing, is that all  federally-funded?  My recollection is that the Canada Department of  National Health and Welfare covered off those areas.  :  All right.  Thank you.  :  That's a situation that has not been standardized  throughout, my lord.  :  I understand that.  And the province is now paying  it, is it not?  :  It's not, to my recollection, although it's an area  of dispute.  It's an on-reserve/off-reserve issue now  under regulations.  :  But most of these Indians were off reserve or on  reserve in your agency?  All the people that I dealt with were, for the most  part, they were on the reserve, except that group  which were kind of in transition, namely, the group at  Pendleton Bay, who were shortly to relocate out of  Pendleton Bay when the mills were going to close  there.  :  All right.  Thank you.  And, of course, the Cheslatta group would have just 23026  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  THE COURT  10  A  11  THE COURT  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  THE COURT  18  MR. GRANT  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  come on reserve just shortly before your time because  the transfer of that land was in 1964?  My belief is that the Cheslatta people were considered  by our department to have never have been off reserve,  although in the pure legal sense I suppose there was a  period of time when those lands were probably under  some interim kind of category, such as, oh, public  lands of Canada or something of that nature.  :  Weren't they moved in the '50s?  Yes.  :  So that the transfer of land was in '64, as Mr.  Grant said, was just a housekeeping detail, wasn't it?  Yes, it was an incredibly long period of time after  the actual relocation of these people on to these  purchased lands before the purchased lands obtained  the status of reserves.  :  All right.  Thank you.  Can you go to tab 7 or tab 6, I am so  on that first page is Irene Andrew, a  asked you about Irene Andrew, and you  Very vaguely, yes.  Did you know a woman by the name of I  I think they are one and the same per  And did you know Irene Andrew's fathe  No, I don't recall him.  I am not eve  was alive during my time there.  I ju  him at all.  Now, you knew -- did you know that Ir  related to people at Moricetown?  No, I did not know that.  You knew Sophie Ogen?  Yes.  Did you know she was related to peopl  No.  In this report, these minutes that I  taken by your staff, you said, it's s  Mclntyre..." and that's yourself, tha  were the one that was at the meeting  Yes.  "...explained to the meeting that the  elect their band council according to  the band."  What did you mean "according to th  band"?  Well, very simply that, the custom of  rules of the conduct of the election,  rry.  Number four  nd Mr. Macaulay  knew her?  rene Daum?  son, I believe,  r, Jimmy Andrew?  n sure that he  st don't recall  ene Andrew was  e at Hagwilget?  understand were  tated:  "Mr.  t reference, you  here?  Omineca band  the custom of  e custom of the  the bands, the  who could be 23027  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  THE COURT  17  18  MR. GRANT  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  THE COURT  27  28  29  MR. GRANT  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  nominated, how -- the whole gamut of procedures  surrounding the selection of band council was purely  at the discretion of the band, however they wanted to  do it.  And since it appeared that I was expected to  participate in this process somehow, I was moved to  raise this issue with the band council, with the view  that I could have some understanding of the rules that  they chose to follow so that I wouldn't run afoul of  them some way or another during my involvement.  There is two methods under the Indian Act for  elections to occur; is that right?  I believe so, yes.  At this time?  Yes.  And one was a procedure under the Indian Act --  : How is this going to help us in resolving this case,  how they elect their band council?  :  Well, my lord, with respect, this document which I  had originally objected to and my friends strenuously  argued should go in because it related to the conduct  of these people, now we are talking about elections  according to the customs of the bands.  To the extent  that applies to the plaintiffs, that's what I am  canvassing. That's exactly what my friend raised this  document for.  : I thought this document was in for quite a different  purpose, but if you think it's going to be helpful, by  all means, go ahead.  In any event, at that time under the Indian Act  procedure, and at this time there was a procedure  whereby elections could take place under the formal  procedure of the Indian Act which has election  regulations, is that right?  Yes, that's right.  And another provision allows for the selection of  chiefs and council under the customs of the band?  Yes.  And not necessarily election, but selection?  Selection, yes.  You would agree with that.  And at this time, what  this comment is, does that reflect that up to at least  this meeting of August, 1967, the Omineca band was one  which the Indian Act or the agency office had recorded  as they were choosing their chiefs and councillors  through custom rather than through election?  Yes, this band was then and indeed for the duration of 2302?  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 my time in Burns Lake, this is one of the bands that  2 chose to select its chief and councillors in  3 accordance with their own custom, whatever that  4 happened to be.  5 Q   But, in fact, when the seven points were dealt with,  6 the procedure closely parallels, and that's set out in  7 this document, ended up closely paralleling the  8 election procedure?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And did you explain to the councillors, or to the  11 people at this meeting, how the ordinary election  12 procedure was?  Was that part of your explanation to  13 them?  14 A   Possibly.  Those were the points that I felt I ought  15 to know in assisting them with this selection process  16 and these were the points that I wanted to be of  17 record as a guide to myself and/or my staff, in our  18 conduct during this process.  19 Q   Now, if you -- I am just showing you a letter from Mr.  20 Wight, W-I-G-H-T, to Mr. Carty, the secretary-  21 treasurer of the Canadian Trappers Association, and  22 this came out of the traplines general file which  23 included some documents to which you made reference to  24 and it has your initial, it appears to be, on the  25 bottom of the first page.  Is this a letter which you  26 received around that time?  27 A   I must have received it, that is my initials on the  28 bottom of it.  29 Q   Which would indicate you received it?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And Mr. Wight was the regional director, that would  32 have been the regional -- he was the senior officer of  33 the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs for the  34 B. C. region at the time of this letter?  35 A   That's right.  36 Q   And this letter would have gone to you at this time  37 because you were, amongst other things, in charge in  38 the Prince George office for trapline matters?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And Mr. Carty, of course, from the Canadian Trappers  41 Association, was based in Prince George and him  42 writing to the director, you probably had at least  43 some knowledge of the correspondence back and forth?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And I would just refer you to the third paragraph  46 where Mr. Wight, the regional director, states:  47 23029  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 "Certainly there is a period during this  2 change..."  3  4 After referring to the change of the Indian trapper  5 and his family,  6  7 "...when consolidation takes place and a sense  8 of security prevails.  It is then that you  9 suggest can be taken but not without  10 consultation with the Indian people and the  11 responsible provincial authority.  While close,  12 I believe they will not be ready until the land  13 question with attendant aboriginal rights is  14 recognized.  The sale you mentioned by Indians  15 of their traplines in northern B. C. was not  16 agreed upon by this department...".  17  18 Then he talks about a particular sale.  19 You were aware at least as early as 1974 of the  20 question of the land question and attendant aboriginal  21 rights that I referred you to earlier?  22 A   Yes.  23 MR. GRANT:  I would ask that that be marked as the next exhibit.  24 THE COURT:  Next number is —?  25 THE REGISTRAR: 1233, my lord:  26  27 (EXHIBIT 1233:  LETTER DATED JUNE 17, 1974 REGIONAL  2 8 DIRECTOR INDIAN AFFAIRS TO CARTY)  29  3 0    MR. GRANT:  31 Q   Now, yesterday you commenced giving evidence and were  32 asked questions about wills, and my recollection is,  33 Mr. Mclntyre, that you advised Indian persons who  34 sought advice, to make wills, that was part of what  35 your job was in the agency office?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And your subordinates, in certain situations?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And, if I recall correctly, my note from yesterday was  40 that "whenever we were aware", that is the agency  41 staff, "...of people having assets of substance, we  42 would encourage them to make wills."  43 That's a fair statement?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Did you ever advise people who came to you about  46 making a will that the making of the will could or  47 would possibly jeopardize their rights? 23030  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 A   No.  2 Q   Did you ever perceive that that was a possibility at  3 the time you advised them?  4 A   No, and I don't perceive it now, really.  5 Q   When you said that you advised "when we were aware of  6 people having assets of substance, we would encourage  7 them to make wills", were you considering at that time  8 such assets as their chiefly names?  9 A   No, because I wasn't aware of their chiefly names.  10 Q   Regalia, traditional regalia?  11 A   I wasn't aware of their possession of this by any of  12 the people who I dealt with.  13 Q   Crest property?  14 A   No.  15 Q   As you described earlier, about the feasting and the  16 funerals and even this custom election that you  17 referred to, would it be fair to say that you saw  18 their traditional property being dealt with by the  19 Carrier people you were working with, in their own  20 way, and that wasn't part of what you were dealing  21 with in the wills?  22 A   I didn't see a great deal of evidence of that.  23 Q   Of?  24 A   Of dealing with their -- of dealing with their  25 property in a manner that I perceived necessarily to  26 follow their own customs.  The property of which I was  27 concerned with, in the encouragement of will  28 preparation, was the kind of property like automobiles  29 and bank accounts and other substantial physical  30 items.  I --  31 Q   A house on a reserve, for example?  32 A  Well, to the extent that it was on land allocated to  33 them.  That was not a very common situation in the  34 Burns Lake Agency, but it was elsewhere, I understand.  35 I didn't feel it to be my prerogative as the  36 government person, to venture at all into things of a  37 cultural or traditional nature.  That was really, you  38 know, an area that I felt it wise to stay out of, and  39 if there were to be transactions in that regard, they  40 were not to concern me.  41 Q   Now, if you look at tab 8, and I think you said this  42 was a will that was not done in your office, and I  43 think the basis upon that is that it's -- I am sorry,  44 I said tab 8, tab 7, I should say.  I am sorry.  I  45 don't have the tabs on both sides.  This is the Mathew  46 Sam will, this is a will that you recall because of  47 the form of it, you assumed it was not done in your 23031  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 office, I think that's a fair way of saying that?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Now, you have no knowledge of the circumstances  4 surrounding the writing of this will by Mr. Sam?  5 A   No.  6 Q   And you have no knowledge of what -- of whether or not  7 it was his intention to include his trapline in this  8 transfer, you don't know that from reading this and  9 that's all you can do is the same as I can do or the  10 judge can do?  11 A  Well, the will says that he "gives, devises and  12 bequeaths all my property of every nature and kind  13 whatsoever", and I think I interpreted that to include  14 the trapline.  15 Q   Well, you did, you did.  And I don't take issue with  16 that, because a subsequent document shows you  17 interpret it that way, but that's the point I wanted  18 to come to, you had this will in front of you and you  19 had to interpret what he meant and you did interpret  20 it to mean a registered trapline?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   You were unable to determine from, of course, what's  23 written here, unlike some of the other wills, whether  24 Mr. Sam included his trapline in that, you just  25 couldn't say, right?  26 A   No, I couldn't say, I guess.  27 Q   For example -- but here is an example where I just  28 want it clear up how you worked this process out, from  29 what you have said you weren't advised of Mr. Sam's  30 chiefly name, you didn't know?  31 A   I have no idea what that may have been.  32 Q   But from what you ever told me even if you had been  33 advised that he had a chiefly name, you would not have  34 included that within the administration?  35 A   No.  36 Q   If he had regalia that went with that chiefly name,  37 you would not have included that in the  38 administration?  39 A   No.  40 Q   If he, under Wet'suwet'en rules, had a right to  41 utilize a certain piece of land that went with that  42 chiefly name, you would not have included that with  43 the administration?  44 A   I don't think so, no.  45 Q   Okay.  But what you did when you go to tab 9, is you  46 included, under other assets on page 3, the provincial  47 government trapline and gave a latitude and longitude. 23032  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 And that was your interpretation of what he meant to  2 be included?  3 A   Yes.  I don't see that under tab 9 but I am sure it's  4 there.  5 Q   I am sorry, I am missing a tab.  Tab 8, I should say.  6 I am sorry, Mr. Mclntyre.  Tab 8, page 3?  7 A   Right.  8 Q   You knew Christine Holland subsequent to these events,  9 you got to know her better from what I recall of your  10 evidence?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   You know that Christine Holland was a Wet'suwet'en  13 person?  14 A   I knew her to be a member of the Omineca band, not  15 ordinarily living on an Omineca band reserve, and --  16 Q   Do you recall where she lived?  17 A   I understood her to live at the time at Houston and  18 when I subsequently became acquainted with her -- I am  19 sorry, Telkwa, and when I subsequently became  20 acquainted with her that is where I became -- that is  21 where I met her.  22 Q   My reading of the whole correspondence, the body of  23 correspondence relating to Mathew Sam's estate and the  24 trapline, Christine Holland and Sophie Ogen and Roy  25 Morris's correspondence, this body that Mr. Macaulay  26 has put together for us all, that you -- you  27 interpreted the dispute as a dispute between the  28 Omineca band wanting control over the trapline as  29 opposed to Roy Morris, who was at that time not a  30 member of the Omineca band wanting control of the  31 trapline?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Is that a fair summary of your understanding of the  34 dispute?  35 A   Hm-hmm, because the complaint that I was hearing from  36 the Omineca band was at odds with the way -- with the  37 transfer of that trapline to Roy Morris.  38 Q   Right.  Because on tab 10 -- tab 10, Sophie Ogen:  39  40 "Please arrange to send us information about  41 late Matthew Sam trapline.  This trapline was  42 transferred to Roy Morris of Morricetown, B.C.  43 my Mrs. Amelia Sam without Chief and  44 Councillors authorization and Mrs. Christine  45 Holland our member she is protesting.  46 Also we like to keep this trapline within  47 our band member." 23033  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  So that was your understanding is that it was band  versus a non-band member dispute that was going on  here?  Yes.  And you were unaware of the relationship, the crest  relationship, that is the crest of Mathew Sam, Roy  Morris and Christine Holland, you had no idea of what  that was?  That is correct.  If at that time it had been brought to your attention  that this was a crest dispute, that is what crest  should it -- who was in line for Mathew Sam and this  was part of the crest property, I take it that you  would have at least taken that into account in how you  dealt with it?  Possibly I would have.  Going to tab 11, I think you make clear what you  understood the situation to be then, in that second  last sentence on the first paragraph:  "So far as we are concerned the estate assets  include the trapline."  That was the interpretation and conclusion you had  already arrived at and then -- that's correct, right?  Yes.  Then you say:  "Mathew's trapline is an Indian trapline since  Roy Morris is a registered Indian there is  nothing to prevent his possession of the line."  And there what you are referring to is the  restriction that Mr. Cox of fish and wildlife, a  restriction that you generally agreed with in some  respect that Indian traplines should go to other  Indian people?  As opposed to non-native people, yes.  Of course how it was defined at that time when you  mean Indian it would be status Indian people you would  be looking at?  Yes, yes.  :  You're not going to finish, are you, Mr. Grant?  :  In one minute, no, I don't think I will finish.  But, my lord, I -- I am certainly not concerned about  our scheduling for this week.  I am not going to be  much longer, from what Mr. Macaulay has told me he has 23034  R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 outstanding.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  We will adjourn then until 10 o'clock  3 tomorrow morning.  4  5 (Proceedings adjourned to Wednesday, November 29, 1989  6 at 10 o'clock a.m.)  7  8  9  10  11  12  13 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  14 a true and accurate transcript of the  15 proceedings herein to the best of my  16 skill and ability.  17  18  19  20  21  22 Wilf Roy  23 Official Reporter  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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