22950 Proceedings 1 Vancouver, B.C. 2 November 28th, 1989 3 4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this 7 28th day of November, 1989. In the matter of 8 Delgamuukw versus her Majesty the Queen at bar, my 9 lord. 10 May I remind you, sir, that you are still under 11 oath. 12 A Yes. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Would you state your name for the record, 14 please. 15 A My name is Rae Manning Mclntyre. 16 MR. PLANT: My lord, if I might speak to one matter briefly 17 before Mr. Macaulay continues with his examination. 18 A number of days ago I raised in court briefly the 19 issue, or continuing issue of the admissibility of 20 certain documents identified by Mr. Boys during our 21 cross-examination of him on his commission evidence. 22 And your lordship may recall that there was a 23 difference of opinion between Mr. Guenther and myself 24 on the effect of your lordship's ruling with respect 25 to our cross-examination of Mr. Boys and its effect on 26 documents which were part of our binder which is 27 Exhibit 1202, the Provincial general documents binder. 28 And I had asked if my friend might give consideration 29 as to his position on the admissibility of these 30 documents on other grounds such as business records or 31 ancient documents, and I understood that your lordship 32 had encouraged my friend to give consideration to 33 that. I haven't yet heard from my friend. I may say 34 that I'm anxious to have this matter resolved this 35 week, because we are giving consideration to the 36 possibility of seeking leave to examine Mr. Boys on 37 commission and obtaining an order from your lordship 38 to that effect. The primary purpose of that 39 examination would be to obtain identification of the 40 documents which Mr. Boys has already identified. But 41 if your lordship accedes to Mr. Guenther's 42 construction of your various rulings then we'll not at 43 present -- we are not at present entitled to rely on 44 these additional documents either in support of our 45 case against -- well, in relation to the case as 46 between the Province and the plaintiffs, and we don't 47 want the matter to be left that way, but rather we 22951 Proceedings 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. GRANT MR. PLANT MR. GRANT want the documents admitted. And I'm sensitive to the time going on here. And if we are going to be asking for your lordship's assistance in relation to an order to examine Mr. Boys I'd like to do that this week. Well, I'd like to do that this week in order to avoid much more time lapsing. I would prefer that these documents simply go in, as I submit they're entitled to go in, as business records or ancient documents. And I would ask your lordship's assistance in facilitating the progress of my friend's consideration of that matter. : Well, my lord, my friend's timeliness was amazing, because, of course, Mr. Guenther was out of the courtroom throughout the entire submission of my friend and just has walked in now, I must advise the court, and therefore was not aware of what my friend was saying. As my friend indicated it's Mr. Guenther that's been dealing with this. : In fact, Mr. Grant last spoke to it, my lord, that's why I didn't share the concern that my friend is -- : If I could just finish without interruption, Mr. Plant. I just want to say that I had proposed that a couple of matters in the terms of logistics of this week. Firstly, I see no difficulty dealing with that matter responding to my friend this week. Mr. Guenther and myself and Mr. Rush are dealing with that, and I have absolutely no difficulty with that. Secondly, in terms of co-ordination of time Mr. Plant and I had an outstanding matter relating to exhibits for identification that we suggested if the Federal Crown was finished on Thursday we would deal with this on Thursday. If the Federal Crown was not finished on Thursday we could deal with that at the next convenient day. But I had also raised another matter, which is the Federal Crown's tendering of historical documents last Thursday. And as your lordship commented, I believe on Thursday or Friday, that if we got those documents or the index on Friday we could review them over the weekend. I still not only don't have the documents but have no index or indication as to what they are. And on the assumption that my friends will provide them to us either later today or tomorrow morning, if they are going to, I would be asking that that issue -- that we have the time to look at them before my friends deal with them. And if they tender them 22952 Proceedings 1 tomorrow morning that we deal with them on Thursday. 2 And if that was the case I would -- unless my friend 3 Mr. Macaulay, the Federal Crown, has other matters 4 that I'm not aware of I would be proposing or 5 preparing that the exhibits for identification between 6 the Province and the plaintiffs be dealt with tomorrow 7 if there was not other matters that the Federal Crown 8 didn't wish to deal with. And what I was going to 9 propose was that this issue could be dealt with 10 tomorrow morning either at the time of the exhibits 11 for identification, or given my friend's concern, 12 could be dealt with tomorrow morning before we start, 13 in any event, so that Mr. Plant would then know the 14 position. And I appreciate his comments and will be 15 passing those on to Mr. Guenther, but I am 16 concerned -- the one thing that I am concerned about 17 is that we do not yet have any indication of what 18 historical documents the Federal Crown intends to put 19 in. And we'll be -- we've repeatedly for the last two 20 weeks requested an index or a listing or something 21 that we could guide ourselves by. And we'll need time 22 with respect to that matter. So I think that Mr. 23 Plant's concerns -- I think that, in any event, 24 whatever happens with respect to the Federal Crown's 25 scheduling tomorrow and the next day Mr. Plant's 26 concerns can be dealt with tomorrow morning on this 27 issue. And if possible we would deal with the other 28 matters if the Federal Crown wish if we were given a 29 hiatus or a break to review the Federal historical 30 documents. All I know now is that it's 15 volumes or 31 less, and that's the only indication I have. And I'm 32 going to have to have time to look at those. 33 MR. MACAULAY: The reason that Mr. Grant hasn't got the — our 34 list yet is that I continue to go through those 35 document lists and those documents in an effort to 36 reduce the number of them the same way I have been 37 reducing the number of witnesses and other material 38 that comprise the Federal Crown's case. And can I say 39 I've been fairly successful in doing that. We have 4 0 reduced the time we're taking up in court from an 41 estimated five weeks to two weeks. 42 I agree that my friend ought to have ample 43 opportunity to look through those documents, the list 44 and the documents themselves, and what I propose -- 45 it's quite obvious that there will be some loose ends 46 of various kinds involving all the parties, 47 particularly the plaintiffs and the Province, that 22953 Proceedings 1 wouldn't be addressed this week because I -- I expect 2 the cross-examination will take the balance of the 3 day, and we have some other things, and although it's 4 possible that part of Thursday will be available for 5 loose ends what I suggest to your lordship is that we 6 provide Mr. Grant with a -- the documents themselves 7 and the lists this week and that he make his 8 submissions on them during the week of the 11th and 9 the beginning of the following week. They are by and 10 large archival documents, and they are certainly 11 nearly all historical documents. There wouldn't be 12 much problem about identifying them in that way. He 13 may want to submit that some of them are not relevant, 14 and so on. I think he ought to have that opportunity. 15 We did start with an enormous number and it's way, way 16 down from what it was. And there's nothing like 15 17 volumes or anything -- anything like that. I don't 18 think he'll find that task before him when he sees 19 them will be particularly onerous. So that's what I 20 suggest is a practical matter to deal with Mr. Grant's 21 concern. 22 THE COURT: All right. Well, there's not much I can say to what 23 anybody has said this morning except to express 24 anxiety that these matters be resolved as quickly as 25 possible, but I don't have anything to suggest or to 26 impose by way of guidelines or strictures or time 27 limitations or anything. I have to leave it to 28 counsel to work these things out as best they can. 29 And it may be that Mr. Macaulay's suggestion of the 30 11th is the best alternative if it is found that it 31 can't be completed or even commenced this week. I'll 32 leave it to counsel to work it out. 33 MR. MACAULAY: I believe it would be an advantage to the court 34 and the parties to have these documents reduced to a 35 minimum, a number of them, so I'm continuing to do 36 that. I stay up late nights and come in early in the 37 morning to do it, and I haven't finished. 38 THE COURT: All right. 39 MR. MACAULAY: Now, my lord, before we go on with the 40 examination I think we were yesterday at tab 41. Can 41 I go back to something that we dealt with earlier. 42 And I have -- particularly have in mind tabs 35 and 36 43 having to do with Bear Lake Charlie, and have in mind 44 Mr. Grant's submissions concerning the contents of tab 45 36. I'm going to show the witness a small -- a 46 trapline file. It's William Charlie and Co. trapline 47 file. It's our document number 11,166. The file 22954 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 number is 985-20-10-C, as in Charlie, -17. And I can 2 tell your lordship that these -- those two documents 3 in my book of exhibits, tabs 35 and 36, are included 4 in that file. 5 6 RAE MANNING MCINTYRE, Resumed: 7 8 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. MACAULAY CONTINUED: 9 Q Mr. Mclntyre, have you seen this trapline file before 10 while you were an officer with DIA? 11 A Yes. There is a letter in this file of mine, a carbon 12 copy or a photocopy of a carbon copy of one of my 13 letters, so obviously I have seen this file before. 14 Q And that's the what, the Bear Lake Charlie file, is 15 it? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And now some of the letters are written by you and 18 other letters by other officers in the department? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q For instance, on July 2nd, 1970 a Mr. Shaughnessy, who 21 styles himself Development Officer Lakes District -- 22 MR. GRANT: What's the date of that? 23 MR. MACAULAY: July 2nd, 1970. It's the fifth document from the 24 top. 25 Q Do you know Mr. Shaughnessy? 26 A Yes. 27 Q And was he working on these trapline files? 28 A Yes. 29 Q Were these trapline files kept at the Burns Lake 30 Agency for a time? 31 A They would have been kept at the Burns Lake Agency for 32 that period of time that the Burns Lake Agency 33 functioned as a separate office, but when the Burns 34 Lake Agency was amalgamated with the Stuart Lake 35 Agency and the Lakes District Agency thus created then 36 those files from Burns Lake, along with all the other 37 files, of course, would have been transferred to 38 Prince George. 39 Q So that your letter of July 8th, 1975 to Mr. Cox in 40 this file -- if you'll turn to that one. My lord, 41 that's the fourth document from the top of the file. 42 When you wrote that letter July 8th, 1975 the file 43 was then in Prince George at the Lakes District 44 headquarters? 45 A That is correct. 46 Q Now, have you looked at this file again this morning? 47 A Yes. Very briefly. 22955 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 Q And I draw your attention to some notes that appear on 2 some sort of government form on -- next to a 3 government form and mimeographed form entitled 4 "Trappers Stuart Lake Indian Agency". 5 A Yes. M'hm. 6 Q Now, Stuart Lake was another old agency, was it? 7 A Well, this was the name of the agency prior to the 8 amalgamation of the former Burns Lake Agency into -- 9 with the Stuart Lake Agency which then created what 10 is, or what was then known as the Lakes District 11 Agency. 12 Q All right. Now, in that form in the -- one of the 13 pages there is a note that reads, "Has been known for 14 years as Bear Lake Charlie and Co.". 15 MR. GRANT: But just a moment, my lord. My copy of this is a 16 sketch note. I don't know. I'd like my friend to lay 17 a foundation. Does this witness know where this 18 particular note came from? 19 MR. MACAULAY: Well, my lord, I'm just drawing his attention to 20 it and I'll ask the appropriate questions if Mr. Grant 21 will sit down. 22 MR. GRANT: Well, before you put that — read the note into 23 evidence I think you should lay the foundation. 24 THE COURT: What do you mean by the foundation, that is to 25 whether the document has been in the custody of the 2 6 department? 27 MR. GRANT: Well, yes. And the source. All I have is a 28 handwritten note. I think your lordship can see it. 29 MR. MACAULAY: It's part of the file. 30 THE COURT: That hasn't really been established yet. 31 MR. MACAULAY: I handed the file up, my lord. 32 THE COURT: Yes. I think what your friend is suggesting, Mr. 33 Macaulay -- 34 MR. MACAULAY: This isn't a criminal case. 35 THE COURT: -- Is that the witness shouldn't merely be asked if 36 this note in his understanding at least is a part of 37 the file. It has a negative suggestion, if it's 38 possible, that it hasn't inserted here for reasons or 39 by persons unknown. 4 0 MR. MACAULAY: 41 Q You have looked at this file? 42 A Yes. 43 Q And does any page of the file you have in front of you 44 appear to be something that didn't belong to the file 45 originally, not part of the government record? 46 A Those pages of which I have examined all appear to me 47 to be a part -- to have been a part of the file. And 22956 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Proceedings 1 I am satisfied that -- to the extent that I have just 2 this morning examined the file that they are all part 3 and parcel. This particular note relates to a 4 trapline matter of -- of Charlie Nicholas, and I am 5 quite comfortable in my mind that it is part of the 6 file. 7 THE COURT: Do you recognize the writing of that notation? 8 A No, I don't. That is not my handwriting, and I can 9 only speculate as to whose handwriting it is. If you 10 want me to -- 11 THE COURT: No. 12 A If you want me to speculate I'll do that. 13 THE COURT: No, I don't. 14 MR. GRANT: Well, that's exactly the point, my lord. That's 15 where I say aside from the fact that Mr. Macaulay has 16 given this file to the witness and the witness has 17 read it over beforehand, this note, which is not on a 18 government form, it's a handwritten note by persons 19 unknown, it can't -- I submit it's not necessarily a 20 part of the business record. There's no indication as 21 to why this note happens to even be in the file, this 22 particular note. That's all. And I don't want to 23 spend a lot of time on it. That's my objection. I 24 think your lordship sees that. 25 THE COURT: I know. You see the problem is the position which 2 6 you're contending is the one that found favour with 27 the House of Lords in the Meyers case, but the Supreme 28 Court of Canada went the other way and said that's too 29 strict a rule and relaxed it greatly. And it seems to 30 me that there is a presumption of regularity. It 31 certainly might be a matter of weight. But, for 32 example, there's some particularity here. It gives 33 their regimental numbers, if I can call them that. It 34 gives ages. If those things aren't correct they can 35 be challenged on cross-examination. I don't know if 36 Mr. Mclntyre knows these people. 37 MR. GRANT: Well, yesterday he indicated he didn't. That's the 38 point. 39 THE COURT: Did he say that? 40 MR. GRANT: That's the point. He speculated with respect to 41 William and John that they were the children. He 42 speculated about that yesterday. 43 THE COURT: I don't remember him saying he didn't know these 44 people. That may be so. 45 MR. GRANT: Michell I think he indicated he knew and, of course, 46 Mr. Bear Lake Charlie and Nicholas Charlie he knew. 47 But when he looked at tab 36 he said he assumed that 22957 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Proceedings 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE MR. COURT GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. that was the sons because there was no last name and -- Yes. And he made these assumptions. And now -- so this witness has no knowledge of this. And I'm saying -- that's why I'm saying -- Well, I know, but the House of Lords said that was fatal to the proof of the serial numbers in the -- all the Austin motor cars that were made, or I think they were Morris motor vehicles that were made over a number of years. And with the greatest of respect to the House of Lords their decision is not one that's likely to find favour in any part of western civilization, except perhaps the House of Lords at that moment in history. It is too unrealistic. That's -- I think there's a range, my lord. And there's many documents in here that I would not take this objection to. There's documents on government forms, there's letters from this witness or from other departmental officials, and in a presumption of regularity all of those kinds of documents go in. This is the kind -- I've seen enough lawyers' files to know that notes and jottings are made on scraps of paper, on the backs of envelopes. And I once decided in a court case based upon some notations that were made on the serviette of the Imperial Room of the Royal York Hotel. These things find their way into files, and it doesn't have to have the royal coat of arms on it to confirm that it belongs in a file. I think it's a matter of reasonableness. And unless there's some reason to believe that a collection of documents, including something like that, has been tampered with the presumption of regularity tells me it's probably part of the file. It's a matter of weight. It may be that's what their regimental numbers were. MACAULAY: My lord — COURT: Maybe it appears elsewhere in the file. MACAULAY: We photocopied those this morning. But on the file we have that note is on the back of page three of this government mimeographed form. In other words, it's not a separate blank page. COURT: Oh. MACAULAY: You see there's a page three. COURT: Yes. MACAULAY: Well, this note is on the back of page three of the file itself. 22958 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Ruling by the Court In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 THE COURT: Yeah. 2 MR. MACAULAY: It just appears in the mimeographing as a 3 separate page, but it isn't. 4 THE COURT: I'm satisfied that there's enough of a presumption 5 of regularity to allow the document to be included in 6 evidence if it's tendered for that purpose. The 7 weight to be attached to it is another matter. 8 MR. MACAULAY: Well, I'm going to ask that this file be marked, 9 my lord, as a business record concerning which, as it 10 happens, this witness can give some evidence from his 11 own knowledge. Not about that particular entry. 12 Could that be given an exhibit number now? 13 THE COURT: Well, has your friend seen this before this moment? 14 MR. GRANT: It was handed to me this morning. I know my friend 15 will say this, it's listed in the 11,000 series of my 16 friend's documents. I certainly can't personally 17 recall reviewing it before this moment. I certainly 18 would like an opportunity to review it before it's 19 marked as an exhibit. 20 THE COURT: We'll reserve a number and not mark it yet. It will 21 be 1232. 22 MR. MACAULAY: Thank you, my lord. In the circumstances I think 23 perhaps the original file -- 2 4 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MR. MACAULAY: That is the original. 2 6 THE COURT: Yes. 27 MR. MACAULAY: It's the copy of the original, but it shows on — 28 that this particular note is on the government form. 29 MR. GRANT: Can I see that? 30 Yes, I think my friend's implying by that that 31 he's assuring me I have everything that's on this 32 although it's photocopied in a different way. On that 33 basis I have no difficulty with my friend tendering 34 the one in the brown folder subject to my chance to 35 review it. 36 MR. MACAULAY: Now, if we could return, my lord, to the tab 41. 37 This is the Jeffery Luus Harris application. 38 Q Now, these special ARDA applications, they were kept 39 in files by you? 40 A Yes. 41 Q And this was one of them? 42 A Yes. 43 Q And you went to see -- did you go to see, I should 44 say, Mr. Jeffery Luus Harris? 45 A Yes. I contacted him at some point. I don't recall 46 the date, but I recall contacting him in advance of a 47 business trip that I was making to the Hazelton area 22959 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 and made -- made arrangements to subsequently meet 2 with him, which I did at his home. 3 Q And do you recall the conversation you had with him? 4 A Yes, for the most part. 5 Q What was that conversation? 6 A I reviewed with him the area of his trapline, the 7 extent of his recent use of the trapline, the location 8 of it, the other users, the trapping equipment that 9 he -- that he had of his own at the time. I asked 10 that the other -- that the other people that were to 11 be involved in this application be available, and soon 12 after my arrival at his home his son Jeffery Jr., I 13 believe, arrived at the home, and together we talked 14 for awhile about the application. 15 Q What did -- what were you told about the previous use 16 of this particular trapline? 17 A I don't have my notes here now, but as best as I can 18 recall Mr. Harris or his family had -- did not 19 indicate to me that they had been in any -- that there 20 had been any recent use of this trapline. And the -- 21 I think the reason for this was that the location of 22 the trapline was somewhat distant north of their home 23 of which is located at Kispiox. Also, Mr. Harris, as 24 I discovered when I arrived at his home, was an 25 elderly man, and I would judge his age to be in the 26 late seventies or perhaps even the early eighties, so 27 there was the question that arose in my mind as to 28 his -- as to his physical ability to go out and trap. 29 Q How about the son? 30 A The son who arrived, and he was the only other person 31 that arrived and participated in the discussion, 32 seemed to be unaware of his father's application and 33 was not -- didn't lead me to understand that he was 34 really terribly interested in his father's 35 application. He revealed to me that he made most of 36 his living in the commercial fishing operation or in a 37 commercial fishing operation and really didn't have 38 very much to say at all that I could interpret to be 39 in support of his father's application. 40 Q Did the son tell you that he had been a trapper? 41 A That was -- no. That was very vague to me. And to 42 this day I'm -- it's not clear in my mind whether his 43 son has ever trapped or not. 44 Q There is reference in the application to perhaps a 45 nephew joining in the trapline. Was that discussed 46 with — 47 A Yes, it was discussed. But the nephew did not appear 22960 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay A Q A Q A MR. MR. THE MR. GRANT A GRANT COURT GRANT at the interview and -- well, I didn't make any attempt to contact the nephew after my discussions with Mr. Harris and his son. And the trapline as described as being 62 miles north of Kispiox near Old Kuldo. Yes. That's how it was described in this conversation? Right. M'hm. And was anything said about having to cut trails in order to get to the trapline? I mean, in order to work the trapline. Not that I can recall. There appeared to be more a concern on the part of the elder Mr. Harris that -- that he needed equipment and that he needed a cabin ir order to operate the trapline. I was given to understand, and came of the understanding, that there is road access to the boundary of the trapline, and although it's possible that access -- : Well, my lord -- I, of course, don't object MR. THE MR. THE -- Within the trapline -- My lord. Just a moment, please. My lord, I'm concerned, to this witness reporting what Mr. Harris said to him. The witness is now -- I'm not sure if the witness is still taking about -- he said I was given to understand and I suspect. I think we're moving into a field of some kind of -- if there's other sources of information that he has other than this interview with Mr. Harris that he's talking about I'd like him to identify them. If he's speculating I would like him to tell us that too. That's all. If this all comes from Mr. Harris or Mr. Harris' son. Witnesses are not required always to repeat conversations verbatim, but it is useful, Mr. Macaulay, to classify the evidence as best one can as between the witness' recollection of the burden of what somebody said as opposed to speculating. And you might be able to assist us in that endeavor. MACAULAY: My lord, when the witness says that there's a road up near that trapline surely he doesn't have to say I consulted the Shell map -- COURT: Oh, no. MACAULAY: — And found that. COURT: No. What he said is I gathered or I was given to understand. I don't know what the basis and your friend doesn't know what the basis of what that THE COURT 22961 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 understanding is. That's really all your friend's 2 objection amounts to. 3 MR. MACAULAY: 4 Q Where did you get your information concerning this 5 trapline? From whom? 6 A Mr. Harris had a map of the trapline that was 7 submitted with his application. 8 Q Yes. 9 A And also during my discussions with Mr. Harris he 10 indicated that he could -- that he could drive a motor 11 vehicle to the trapline, at least to the boundary of 12 it, and perhaps to an area within the trapline at some 13 point. 14 Q Now, the information that you got was either from the 15 application itself or from what Mr. Harris told you; 16 is that right? 17 A Well, from both. 18 Q From both? 19 A From both. 20 Q And not from any other third party? 21 A No. 22 Q And this application we're looking at is part of your 23 ordinary business records that you keep? 24 A Yes, it is. 25 Q And I take it attached to this application was a map, 26 as you've said? 27 A Yes. 28 MR. MACAULAY: I'm trying to avoid bulk by not putting in whole 29 files, my lord. 30 THE COURT: Do we have the application the letter speaks of or 31 is the application the ARDA application? 32 MR. MACAULAY: The application is the ARDA application. 33 THE COURT: Thank you. 34 MR. MACAULAY: That's how these applications are made on these 35 forms. There are various attachments to these 36 applications. I'm not putting every bit of it in. My 37 friend -- we have the file here. He can look at the 38 whole file in that connection. 39 THE COURT: All right. 4 0 MR. MACAULAY: 41 Q Now, the next tab is 42. Did you receive this letter 42 from Mr. — from Mr. Harris, Mr. Jeff Harris Sr.? 43 A Yes. 44 Q And that forms part of the same file, I guess, did it? 45 The same application. 46 A Yes. 47 Q Was that letter provided for you before or after you 22962 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 2 A 3 Q 4 5 6 7 A 8 9 Q 10 11 MR. GRANT 12 13 14 15 16 THE COURT 17 MR. MACAU 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 28 29 30 Q 31 32 A 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 Q 40 41 42 A 43 44 45 Q 46 47 went to see Mr. Harris at Kispiox? It was provided to me before I went to see Mr. Harris. During this -- in this letter there's a reference to Mr. Harris having registered a hunting ground on Ironsides Creek. Did he mention that during his conversation with you? I don't recall him using the name Ironsides Creek during our conversation. Now, could we turn to the next tab, 43. Another application. : I believe that with respect to tab 41, my lord, I've made my points with regard to the relevance issue and that's set out on the record, but my silence today isn't indicating any other material other than those two pages is relevant. : Thank you. uAY: This is the application of James Morrison? Yes. And did you interview Mr. Morrison? Yes. And did it appear to you from your interview that he was an active trapper? Oh, yes. And did he have a map of his trapline available? At some point in time. I don't remember exactly when, but certainly I was provided with a map of his trapline and used that map in my -- in my analysis of the application. And did he have any trapping records for you to look at? At the time that I interviewed him I had -- I don't recall that he had any -- any specific trapping records, no. Sometime though subsequent to the application I -- I had an interview with Mr. Morrison and at that point in time he had an excellent set of records as to what he had -- as to what he had caught and where. And I was quite impressed. Could we turn to tab 44. This document in tab 44 entitled "Simon Muldoe and Co. Ltd.". I guess is that part of one of your ARDA application files? It is. It is part of my files. It is, in fact, a photocopy of the notes that I made during my interview with Mr. Muldoe. Which Mr. Muldoe -- which Muldoe did you have an interview with? There are several Muldoes mentioned in these notes. Richard in note two and Andy in note 22963 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 three, and so on. 2 A It was Simon Muldoe Sr.. I believe he's referred to. 3 Quite an elderly man again. 4 Q Yes. And did he tell you what his trapping activities 5 had been on this particular trapline that he was 6 dealing with? 7 A Yes. That is my notes refer to that. I believe it's 8 item 4 of my notes where I -- I noted that he had told 9 me that he had not trapped for approximately 15 years. 10 He also told me that there were roads into the 11 trapline, and that he did not know if any logging had 12 occurred within the boundaries of his trapline. 13 Q And what did he tell you about his -- I take it these 14 are sons, are they, Richard and Andy, or were they 15 sons or nephews or -- or would you have to look at the 16 file? 17 A I would have to look at the file. I'm inclined to 18 answer that they are his grandsons, but I would have 19 to refer to the file again. 2 0 Q And he told you about them? 21 A Yes. They did not appear at the interview although 22 Mr. Muldoe seemed to feel that -- that it was 23 important that this application was important to their 24 trapping activities. 25 Q Did you gather from what Mr. Muldoe said that he had 26 trapping experience? 27 A I wasn't really able to determine that. He was -- he 28 was rather vague in that regard. 29 Q Is that -- do you in the ordinary course of events ask 30 about the trapping experience of applicants and 31 their -- and their children or grandchildren who are 32 said to be involved in the application? 33 A Yes. 34 Q I note you have a note that Mr. Muldoe, note seven, 35 was born in 1916? 36 A Yes. 37 Q He told you that, I suppose? 38 A Yes. 39 Q Now, what did notes nine, ten and 11 say -- refer to? 40 A I questioned them that if they were to receive 41 assistance in respect to the construction of cabins 42 where he would build a cabin. That -- that -- that 43 relates to my note item number nine. 44 Q Yes. And did he -- did he tell you? 45 A No. He was uncertain in that regard. 4 6 Q And how about note ten? 47 A Number ten or note item ten relates to a question that 22964 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 I asked him in regard to the use of his trapline by 2 another native trapper, a man by the name of Delbert 3 Turner. 4 THE COURT: Delbert? 5 A Delbert Turner. 6 MR. MACAULAY: One of the plaintiffs, my lord. 7 A And the reason I asked that question of Mr. Muldoe 8 was -- flowed from an earlier discussion that I had 9 had with Mr. Turner with respect to a special ARDA 10 application that had been received from Mr. Turner, 11 and Mr. Turner had at that time alluded to the 12 possibility that he might be able to obtain the 13 consent of Mr. Muldoe to use Mr. Muldoe's trapline. 14 Now, Mr. Turner's application was not terribly 15 attractive to our programme because of the limited 16 trapping area that was at that time available to Mr. 17 Turner. And similarly this application covered a 18 trapline that was not terribly extensive also. So my 19 reason for asking this question of -- of Mr. Muldoe 20 to -- was to explore the possibility of his -- of the 21 joining together of two applications, namely the 22 application of Mr. Turner and this application that I 23 was dealing with at the time from Mr. Muldoe to see if 24 we could combine the two applications into one. I was 25 then given to understand, you know, quite clearly from 26 Mr. Muldoe that he did not want to join in an 27 application with Delbert Turner. And that is the 28 substance of my note item number ten. 29 Q When you spoke to Mr. Turner had he given you 30 information about his previous trapping activities? 31 A Yes. 32 Q And had he been trapping actively up to the time that 33 he spoke to you? 34 A Oh, yes. Yeah. 35 Q And what's note 11? 36 A At the time I was dealing with these, or this 37 application and some others I had received comments 38 from native people that -- to the effect that they 39 felt themselves to be under some pressure from the 40 provincial fish and wildlife branch to use their 41 traplines and to show use of their traplines, and if 42 they could not do that then -- then perhaps they might 43 be dispossessed of their traplines by the provincial 44 fish and wildlife branch. Now, I have to tell you 45 that I haven't heard those same kind of comments 46 recently. I have no -- no knowledge of such -- of 47 such disposition of -- of traplines ever occurring, 22965 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 but that's why I asked the question of Mr. Muldoe, was 2 he under -- did he feel himself to be under pressure 3 from the fish and wildlife branch to use his trapline. 4 Q In order to save -- preserve his position? 5 A Right. Right. 6 Q And he told you, I take it, that he was not under 7 pressure? 8 A Yes. That is correct. 9 Q And the next tab this is a document from the same -- 10 the same application, is it? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And it's a letter from you to Mr. Muldoe? 13 A It's kind of -- that type of letter is almost the 14 standard first response that I would send to all 15 special ARDA trapline assistance applicants, and upon 16 receipt of a reply to this kind of a letter I would 17 then -- I would then undertake to go out and visit 18 them at their homes and further discuss their 19 applications with them. 20 Q And now tab 46. This is also in the same file 21 regarding Simon Muldoe and Company noted? 22 A Yes. That is the initial answer I obtained to the 23 earlier letter under tab -- under tab 45. 2 4 Q And — 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry. This is a response from Doris L. 26 Morrison. Am I looking at the right tab? 27 MR. MACAULAY: It's tab 46, my lord. 28 THE COURT: 46. Oh, I'm sorry, 29 MR. MACAULAY: It's Simon Muldoe signs it. 30 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. 31 MR. MACAULAY: 32 Q There he identified Richard and Andy as his sons? 33 MR. GRANT: Well, that's — 34 MR. MACAULAY: 35 Q Is that right? 36 A Yes. 37 MR. GRANT: I don't think that's correct, my lord. The witness 38 may not know the answer to that. 39 MR. MACAULAY: What's not correct? I'm suggesting to the 40 witness that he was informed by this letter that 41 Richard and Andy were sons of Simon Muldoe. Well, my friend -- Maybe there's two Simons. There are two Simons. Simon Muldoe Sr. and the late 45 Simon Muldoe Jr.. And the late Simon Muldoe Jr. I 46 thought my friend would know because he was an Indian 47 agent. He died some years later. I thought this 42 MR. GRANT 4 3 THE COURT 4 4 MR. GRANT 22966 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 witness would know him. My understanding is Richard 2 and Andy are sons of the late Simon Muldoe Jr.. I may 3 be mistaken about that. That's my understanding. 4 There's two Simon Muldoes. I thought my friend was 5 aware of the second Simon Muldoe. 6 MR. MACAULAY: I was not aware. 7 MR. GRANT: The witness may be. 8 MR. MACAULAY: The witness thought they were grandsons, and 9 apparently the witness is correct in his assumption if 10 that's -- my friend's statement is evidence. 11 Q Anyhow, that's part of the same Simon Muldoe and Co. 12 Ltd. file — 13 A Yes. 14 Q — That you keep? 15 A Yes. 16 Q The next one is another application with a lot of 17 handwritten material attached to it which appears to 18 be the application of Doris L. Morrison. Do you 19 remember Doris L. Morrison? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And her trapline company was called Li-Gi-Nil-Ah -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q -- Trapping Company at Fiddler Creek? 24 A Yes. 25 THE COURT: Do you have the name, madam reporter? 26 MR. MACAULAY: This is how it's spelled, L-I hyphen G-I hyphen 27 N-I-L hyphen A-H. 28 Q And did you go to see Mrs. Morrison? 29 A M'hm. Yes, I did. 30 MR. MACAULAY: I notice that on this application we include a 31 little more of this one, my lord. The map's included. 32 Q Well, did you ascertain from Mrs. Morrison what her 33 trapping activities on this trapline had been in the 34 previous years? 35 A Yes. 36 Q And had she been trapping there in recent years, that 37 is before your interview? 38 A She was very vague about that. And I can -- I was 39 left with the impression resulting from my discussion 40 with her that -- that because of the location of this 41 trapline that it was very, very difficult for her to 42 trap it. And I say that because the map -- the map 43 shows that this trapline is located across the Skeena 44 River down river from the village of -- of Kitwanga, 45 and to obtain access to this trapline requires either 46 that the trapper travelled down the northwest side of 47 the Skeena River, and there is only rail access on 22967 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE THE THE MR. MR. MR. THE that side of the river, or alternatively to go across the river by boat. And to cross that river by boat in trapping season when -- when the river may -- may have ice chunks floating down the river is a very risky proposition. And, in fact, within the items of assistance that Mrs. Morrison listed that she would require to access this trapline she listed a boat. That's the last page of the written portion, the handwritten portion of her application, is it, where there's a 15 foot boat and 30 horsepower motor? Yes. Which of the two traplines is it that's on the map, the southerly one or the northerly one? I'm sorry. There's more than -- there's several on the map. Is it 0615T009 or 0615T004? I believe it's trapline number T009, the last -- the last four digits. Oh. Because that is the trapline in which Fiddler Creek is located. Yes. MACAULAY: Q Did Mrs. Morrison tell you her own trapping experience through her life or in her lifetime? I can't recall the details of my discussion in that regard. And this application is part of your ARDA file on Mrs. Morrison? Yes. The next one, tab 48 -- My lord, just to state that the same objection applies with respect to the funding aspect of the application. And I say this because this is an application that's been marked for identification, if I remember rightly, by the provincial defendant and I want to be clear that if they intend to rely on the funding aspects of it they should certainly apprise me of that, and advise me of that. But I anticipate they may be relying on the same section, which is the commentary section of it where the witness or where information is provided on behalf of Mrs. Morrison. If that's all they're providing as to the history and utilization of the trapline that's satisfactory. MACAULAY: In fact, it was -- I put this to an earlier witness, my lord, and the witness was unable to identify it -- COURT: Yes. A COURT A COURT: A COURT: A A Q GRANT 2296? R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 MR. MACAULAY: — So it was marked for identification at that 2 time. It was marked exhibit -- it's 445 for 3 identification, my lord. 4 THE COURT: Yes. All right. 5 MR. GRANT: Subject to the -- subject to what I have just said I 6 think the identification can be removed from Exhibit 7 445 as well. 8 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 9 MR. MACAULAY: 10 Q Now, the next tab, tab 48, is another document from 11 Mrs. Morrison's file, is it? 12 A Yes? It is my -- it is my resume which -- which I was 13 required to prepare for the perusal of our special 14 ARDA advisory committee. 15 MR. MACAULAY: Yes. My lord, we have blanked out the 16 recommendation paragraph, as your lordship will see 17 there. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. MACAULAY: My friend is welcome to look at it if he wants to 20 put that part in evidence. We thought that might not 21 be necessary. 22 MR. GRANT: Is there a reason my friend thought the project cost 23 was not necessary to be blanked out? 24 MR. MACAULAY: The witness referred to the project cost in his 25 evidence, two of the project costs. 26 MR. GRANT: Well, I'll be requesting my friend to provide me 27 that. I can review over the noon hour these files. 2 8 MR. MACAULAY: We have them all here. 29 MR. GRANT: My friend indicates he has them here and I'll look 30 at the them over the noon hour and make a decision. 31 MR. MACAULAY: All right. 32 Q Now, the next tab, witness, is tab 49. Joshua McLean. 33 Do you remember Mr. McLean? 34 A M'hm. Yes. 35 Q And these documents in tab 49 are taken from the -- 36 the file that you keep on Joshua McLean's application? 37 A Yes. 38 Q And the last document shows the trapline in question? 39 A Yes. 40 Q Yeah. Now, do you recall an interview with Joshua 41 McLean? 42 A Yes. 43 Q And what did Mr. McLean have to say about recent 44 trapping activity, that is recent when you were 45 talking to him on this trapline that's shown on the 46 map here? 47 A He gave me some copies or original fur catch receipts 22969 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 2 3 Q 4 5 A 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q 12 A 13 14 Q 15 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 30 31 32 33 Q 34 A 35 36 37 Q 38 A 39 THE COURT 40 A 41 THE COURT 42 A 43 MR. MACAU 44 Q 45 46 47 that I was satisfied that he -- he had indeed been trapping prior to his application. And were you satisfied that he was an experienced trapper from talking to him? Well, to judge the measure of his experience -- he didn't provide me with any -- any evidence that I could really judge the measure of experience. I was satisfied that he was a trapper, that he had caught fur, and so on. I was satisfied that -- that he knew how to trap. You know, he had caught fur. And that was -- So that was not an issue that, you know, I felt I needed to focus on. The next tab is that from the McLean trapline file -- I should say the ARDA application file for Joshua McLean. I'm sorry. Under which tab? Tab 50. Under tab 50. Yeah. Just one note there. Yes. This is my notes resulting and made during the course of my discussion with Mr. -- with Mr. McLean. Yeah. And you determined there was no logging? If that's what he told me, yes. That was the question you usually asked? Oh, yes. Yeah. And what are the notes at the bottom? Those were the -- those were -- those notes refer to my summary of the value of the fur that he had caught during 1980 -- the trapping season of 1986 and '87, and the amount of money that he -- he had evidenced that he had received for these particular pelts. Oh, you have three something the first one? I've got three marten for a total value of $95 and five squirrels for $5 and one beaver which he says he got $8 for. That's information he gave you? Yes. : I'm sorry. Five squirrels? I'm sorry. Three marten at $95. : Oh, yes. I see. And five squirrels for $5 and one beaver for $8. uAY: Now, yesterday you mentioned in your evidence when I was asking you about estate files remember I asked you how you got the -- identified the band and the band number for a deceased when you were dealing with an 22970 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 estate? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And you mentioned some lists you had in the office? 4 A Those are band membership lists, yes. 5 Q Who had the responsibility for keeping band membership 6 lists when you were superintendent at the Burns Lake 7 Agency? 8 A My agency clerk. And she would update these records 9 whenever there was a birth or a death or a marriage or 10 a transfer of band membership from, you know, where an 11 individual or his -- his family might -- might succeed 12 in transferring their membership from one Indian band 13 to another. 14 Q How about the case of an enfranchisement, would that 15 affect the band? 16 A In those rare cases there would be a notation that -- 17 that that person's name would be removed from a band 18 list. 19 Q You say they're rare cases? 20 A They were then, yes. 21 Q Did you ever recommend to a band member that he or she 22 seek enfranchisement? 23 A No. I felt there to be no advantage to doing that. 24 Q And how did you find out when a child was born or a 25 person died? 26 A Because the provincial division of vital statistics 27 also allowed or allowed and relied upon each Indian 28 agency office at the time to -- to process and prepare 29 those births, deaths, marriage and still birth 30 registrations. And that was an activity, a routine 31 that was done in Indian Affairs offices throughout 32 B.C., and it was as a result of that documentation 33 that the band lists were maintained. 34 Q Well, how did you find out when a child was born? 35 A The hospital would send us a notice of birth or still 36 birth, as the case might be. 37 Q Yeah. 38 A And at that point we would contact the parents and 39 request that they come to our office and assist us in 40 the -- in the preparation of the birth registration. 41 Q Yes. 42 A And there were some other routines that we also 43 undertook at the same time. For instance, the 44 application for the family allowance payments. 45 Q Now, I notice that in the form -- my lord, I'll turn 46 back to this form again -- in connection with Noralee 47 Mathew Sam -- it's the form found at page eight. 22971 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 THE COURT: What tab number? 2 MR. MACAULAY: Tab 8. 3 THE COURT: Thank you. 4 MR. MACAULAY: 5 Q The form shows that Mathew Sam had a band number 23 at 6 the Omineca band and that on the same page it shows 7 Amelia Sam as having number 23 in the same band. Is 8 there reason for that duplication? 9 MR. GRANT: I wonder what the relevance is, aside from interest 10 of band numbers. I fail to see what the DIA 11 administration and assignment of, as you said, 12 regimental band numbers is. What relevance does that 13 have to do with anything that you're going to have to 14 deal with in this case? 15 MR. MACAULAY: It will be relevant to the wills. 16 THE COURT: A question of identification? 17 MR. MACAULAY: Yes, my lord. 18 THE COURT: Yes. All right. 19 MR. MACAULAY: My friend may know all this, but we don't. 20 MR. GRANT: My objection was not knowledge, it was relevance. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. MACAULAY: 23 Q How is it that Mathew Sam and Amelia Sam had the same 24 number? 25 A Because under the membership practice or rules or 26 policy, however you choose to identify it, upon 27 marriage the wife would assume the number that her -- 28 that her husband had. And similarly any children 29 resulting of that marriage would -- would initially be 30 given the same number and retain that number until 31 they reach the age of majority. 32 MR. MACAULAY: That information may be useful later on, my lord, 33 when other documents of that kind are looked at. 34 Q Was that the practice from your experience in all the 35 agencies in which you served? 36 A Yes. 37 Q That numbering system? 38 A Yes. 39 Q Who was the clerk in your agency at Burns Lake? 40 A During the entire time that I was at Burns Lake the 41 clerks name was Caroline Kempannien. She was there 42 before I arrived and she was there briefly after I 43 left. 44 Q And she knew -- did you determine whether or not she 45 knew many of the band numbers in the agency? 46 A I'm satisfied that she knew a great many of them, yes. 47 Q The Lake Babine band, a number of the members of that 22972 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 band lived in Burns Lake? 2 A Yes. 3 Q You've given that evidence? 4 A And they were -- were they migrating towards Burns 5 Lake during the time you were superintendent? 6 MR. GRANT: Well, what does my friend mean about this migrating? 7 THE COURT: Well, the witness has already described that. He's 8 mentioned it. 9 MR. GRANT: Yeah. The Lake Babine band, as I understand the 10 witness' evidence, was a band -- a reserve located at 11 Burns Lake, so if my friend is asking are they living 12 at Burns Lake I don't know whether he means at the 13 reserve at Burns Lake or the town. 14 MR. MACAULAY: I'm surprised my friend knows so little about 15 that area without the confines of the Gitksan and 16 Wet'suwet'en claim area. 17 Q I'll start over. The Lake Babine band members, most 18 of them lived in or near reserves on Babine Lake 19 itself, didn't they? 20 A Yes. Initially most of them lived on various reserves 21 along the shores of Babine Lake. A number of band 22 members during my time there had been former band 23 members of the Takla Lake band and the old Fort 24 Connolly band, and quite possibly one or two band 25 members from other bands. I recall seeing file 26 material that -- that showed that at one point in time 27 the members of this band had, in fact, comprised two 28 bands, as it were, that were recognized to exist along 29 the shores of Babine -- of the Babine Lake. One group 30 which was called the Old Fort band tended to occupy a 31 very large village at a place called Old Fort on Fort 32 Babine, and another large group occupied two reserves, 33 one at the extreme north end of Babine Lake, northwest 34 end of Babine Lake at Fort Babine, and a smaller group 35 occupying other reserves at Smithers Landing and at IR 36 number nine, and then further down the lake, about 37 two-thirds of the way down the lake, if you like, at a 38 place called Topley Landing which is close to the 39 present day location of Granisle. 40 Q Granisle Mine? 41 A Right. Those two bands were -- were amalgamated into 42 what was then, and continues to be known, as the Lake 43 Babine band in or about 1957. 44 Q And during the time you were superintendent at Burns 45 Lake did the number of members of that band residing 46 in Burns Lake increase? 47 A Slightly, yes. Although most of the -- most of the 22973 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 Lake Babine members who were -- who were going to move 2 to Burns Lake had already done so. Now, during my 3 time there, and after my time there, I know that -- 4 that there were additional band members who -- who 5 subsequently chose to make their home in Burns Lake 6 and are there today. 7 Q Did you know of potlatching among members of the Lake 8 Babine band? 9 A I knew that those events occurred, yes. 10 Q And did they occur frequently or infrequently? 11 A I would say quite frequently. I came to know of these 12 events mainly because they resulted from -- from 13 funeral activities. 14 Q And did you ever attend one of the Lake Babine 15 potlatches? 16 A No. Although I was invited to do so on one or two 17 occasions. 18 Q The Cheslatta band, were there to your knowledge 19 potlatches among them? 20 A I cannot recall the same kind of events occurring with 21 the Cheslatta band, no. 22 Q And how about the Burns Lake band, were there 23 potlatches at the Burns Lake band? 24 A No. There were no deaths that I can recall within the 25 very small membership that comprised the Burns Lake 26 band during my time there. I shouldn't say that. 27 Isaac Sam passed away, but I don't recall a potlatch 28 being held for Isaac Sam, or subsequently for his wife 29 Theresa Sam when she passed away. 30 Q Theresa Sam, that's the will we looked at recently? 31 A M'hm. 32 Q I take it you knew every member of that Burns Lake 33 band, didn't you? 34 A I certainly knew the adults. The children were kind 35 of hard for me to keep track of by name. 36 Q Now, how about what was then known as the Omineca 37 band, were there potlatches that you knew of among -- 38 A Not that I can recall, no. 39 MR. MACAULAY: By the way, my lord, we referred yesterday to 40 Tobey Charlie. 41 Q Tobey Charlie was a member of the Burns Lake band? 42 A Yes. He had been a member of the Lake Babine band but 43 he chose and succeeded in transferring his membership 44 when he married Nancy Charlie, the daughter of Theresa 45 and Isaac Sam. 4 6 Q And you know him? 47 A Oh, yes. 22974 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) In chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 MR. MACAULAY: My lord, his trapline number came up yesterday. 2 The trapline number is 604T031. And that's entirely 3 within the claim area not that far from Burns Lake. 4 Q During your time as superintendent at Burns Lake did 5 you ever hear of clans in which the various band 6 members were divided? 7 A Oh, yes. I knew of the existence of clan -- of clan 8 membership. 9 Q Yes. 10 A I don't recall who belonged to what clan, but the 11 names of clans; the frog clan, the wolf clan, the 12 bear, the grouse. And there may have been others, but 13 I was certainly aware of the existence of these clans, 14 yes. 15 Q And did you know of any -- a subdivision -- another 16 kind of division into houses? 17 A No. Houses is not a term that I -- that I -- that I 18 had heard until I -- until many years later when I 19 was -- until, in fact, I was doing my work with -- 2 0 with the special ARDA programme and came into contact 21 with the people up in the Hazelton area then I heard 22 the term houses. But that was not a term that was 23 mentioned by people of the Burns Lake area. But clans 24 were. 25 Q Clans were? 26 A Yes. 27 MR. MACAULAY: My lord, it's 11:15. I may not have many more 28 questions, but this may be a convenient time. 2 9 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 30 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned for a 31 short recess. 32 33 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 34 35 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 36 a true and accurate transcript of the 37 proceedings herein to the best of my 38 skill and ability. 39 40 41 42 Peri McHale, Official Reporter 43 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 44 45 46 47 22975 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) In Chief by Mr. Macaulay 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS) EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. MACAULAY: (Continued) THE COURT: Mr. Macaulay? MR. MACAULAY: Q In your term as superintendent at Burns Lake, did you have occasion to travel around the various Indian reserves within your jurisdiction? A Oh, yes. I regularly travelled around to those reserves that were occupied by Indian people, yes. Q And you travelled along Francois Lake? A Yes. Q And Owen Lake? A Yes. Q Was there a reserve at Owen Lake? A Yes, that's where Felix George Indian Reserve is located. Q Were there any band members living at that reserve in your time? A No, there were no Indian people actually living on that reserve and the reason why I was at that reserve from time to time was because there was interest on the part of non-Indians in leasing lakeshore lots on that reserve from the Omineca Band at the time. Q Were any leases granted? A Oh, yes. Q And the revenues would then go to the credit of the band? A That's right. Q Did you find any signs of old habitations on Owen Lake? No, I didn't look for that, no. You didn't look for it? MR. A Q A Q A GRANT: No. You didn't see any? No. Not that — Don't lead. If he didn't look for them and -- better not to lead. THE COURT: It was verging on cross-examination, Mr. Macaulay. MR. MACAULAY: Well, this may be a good time to stop, my lord, and they can start the cross-examination. MR. GRANT: If it was that easy my lord, I would have -- THE COURT: Mr. Plant? MR. PLANT: My lord, I have some questions for the witness subject to any objections which my friends might have. THE COURT: Well, I am sure they do, but maybe not. If — certainly there is no difficulty if it relates to 22976 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 issues between the two Crowns. MR. PLANT: I will endeavour to keep my cross-examination within the limits of the ruling that your lordship handed down with respect to Mr. Boys' cross-examination. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. GRANT: Just so that I can be clear, so I understand that my friend's cross-examination here would be or my friend -- firstly, is my friend dealing with this by way of direct or cross-examination? And, secondly, though, the evidence is only evidence against the Federal Crown? THE COURT: Well, I am going to allow cross-examination but it's within the rubric of my previous ruling. Thank you. And I -- this is cross-examination, my lord. MACAULAY: My lord, before my friend comes up perhaps I could have this book marked as an exhibit. Well, I think so, subject to the various exceptions that have been mentioned. Possibly it could be dealt with after the cross- examination of this witness. That would be appropriate in this case, because some of them I may have a position on. THE COURT: Cross-examination may make it even more admissible. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT: MR. MR. MR. THE MR. GRANT PLANT COURT GRANT MR. PLANT: Q A Q A A I have one initial question, which is really just a matter of clarification of your handwriting, Mr. Mclntyre. It's a note at tab 40 of the binder of your documents. And it's got the number 8347 in the upper right hand corner, and as I recall it refers to an interview with David Blackwater senior, do you recall that? Yes. And I have here, as I see it, a number seven, note number seven, could you just read what that says, please? "His brother Walter traps on an adjoining line. Will also send consent and the maps or map of that trapline." That's the gist of my note. Did you understand that that was going to be something that this consent and maps that they were going to be sening to you by David Blackwater senior or by the brother Walter? The responsibility for that was upon Mr. Blackwater. 22977 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 That was my understanding with him. 2 Q David Blackwater? 3 A Yes. 4 Q I am going to change the subject, if I might. 5 Could you describe, in a general way, what you 6 considered your duties and responsibilities were as 7 the Indian superintendent in the Burns Lake Agency? 8 A Oh, golly, very wide variety of duties. The 9 responsibility for membership list maintenance, as I 10 discussed earlier, and I mention that because it's the 11 thing most fresh in my mind; for the issuance of 12 social assistance to needy Indian people; also in the 13 welfare area, for assisting aged Indians for their 14 applications for the various pension-type of 15 entitlements that they might be entitled to; Family 16 Allowance administration; providing financial 17 assistance to Indian people in the repair and 18 construction of new houses; responsibility for the 19 agency budget in respect to community infrastructures 20 such as water and sewer and power lines, roads; 21 administration of estates; maintenance of trapline 22 records; liaison with National Health and Welfare 23 officials over matters relating to the health 24 responsibilities of that other department. Is that 25 enough? 26 Q I could perhaps also augment that by asking you with 27 reference to the semi-annual reports that are 28 contained in this binder of your documents, they 29 report on a number of other matters. Looking at the 30 first one in tab 1, there is headings like agency 31 transport facilities -- I am really on the first page, 32 part one? 33 A That would be a good general guide. The sub headings 34 of my annual report gives -- it gives one a list of 35 the highlights of activities that went on during that 36 semi-annual period, but obviously there are other 37 things that I have just mentioned that are not 38 specifically identified in the context of that report. 39 Q So there may be additional things to the report, but 40 the matters that you are reporting on here in these 41 annual reports are matters that you considered as you 42 as the superintendent had some responsibility for? 43 A And that report was even intended to highlight 44 specific activities, and you may discover that if you 45 compare one semi-annual report with another that the 46 format is not necessarily the same from one semi- 47 annual report to another, because we were focusing on 2297? R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 23 24 MR. GRANT 25 26 27 MR. PLANT 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 THE COURT 37 38 MR. GRANT 39 MR. PLANT 40 Q 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 different initiatives from one time to another. Depending on what was a particularly current interest? That's right, yes. And as the superintendent for the agency, were you the senior government official within the agency? Yes. And in the course of carrying out your responsibilities it appears to me from my review of these reports and from your evidence yesterday and today, that you had occasion to deal with provincial government officials in relation to matters which you considered to be within provincial government jurisdiction? Yes. Such as fresh water fishing? Yes. And trapping disputes or trapping? Yes. As to trapping, was it your experience as superintendent within the Burns Lake Agency that from time to time there would be disputes or competing claims among the native -- natives who were under your charge, so to speak, concerning -- : Well, I am not certain what bearing that question has on the issues between the two defendants. It seems that my friend is now -- : I could assist my friend by recalling your lordship's ruling, as I would apply it to this context, means that nothing that this witness says now can be admissible against the plaintiffs. And if my friend would indulge me in the courtesy of two or three more questions, I am dealing with the relationship between the two defendants, and I am fully mindful of your lordship's -- the strictures imposed by your lordship's ruling. : All right. I think, on that basis, the cross- examination may continue. : Yes, my lord, I agree. The question I was trying to ask was whether during the course of your tenure as superintendent within the Burns Lake Agency you were aware that there were, from time to time, differences among the Indians as to who should be entitled to a particular trapline, and one example that occurs to me is that the Mathew Sam trapline is referred to in the documents that we have already looked at. That was one occasion. But by and 22979 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 large there were not that many disputes. Mathew Sam, 2 there was a difference of opinion certainly between 3 the then band council and obviously the wishes of 4 Mathew Sam and I -- there were a few others, but 5 when -- but there were, for the number of traplines 6 for which I was involved with, there were really very, 7 very few disputes between Indian people. 8 Q Now, that's fair enough. My particular concern was to 9 suggest to you that as an official in charge of -- as 10 you have said, among other things -- trapline 11 registrations, it was obviously helpful to keep a 12 written record of such matters as trapline disputes 13 and the outcome of them on your files? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And, again, as far as you knew, there -- the overall 16 responsibility for issuing trapline registrations was 17 in the hands of the provincial officials? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And those officials were accustomed to dealing with 20 you as the person responsible for Indian affairs 21 within the Burns Lake Agency, would that be a fair 22 statement? 23 A Yes, it is. They were accustomed in that way, yes. 24 Q So it's not surprising that those officials, 25 provincial officials, might, from time to time, want 26 to have your assurance that particular assignment of a 27 trapline after a death was properly documented and 28 that you were satisfied that it was in the best 29 interests of those within your agency, the Indians 30 within your agency? 31 A Well, I still felt at the time that the responsibility 32 was that of the province and that my decision to 33 maintain records for the Indian people was in keeping 34 with an obligation I felt that I had to the Indian 35 people, not motivated at all by any particular 36 obligation that I felt to the neatness and tidiness of 37 the recording system that ought to be handled by the 38 provincial government. My interest was in protecting 39 the interests of the Indian people of whom I felt some 40 responsibility for. 41 Q Whom, if I may, you were responsible for as the head 42 of the Burns Lake Agency; fair enough? 43 A Yes, fair enough. 44 Q I am going to change the subject again, and I wanted 45 to ask you now a few questions about some other 46 documents in the book. And that is starting with tab 47 3, and I would like to direct your attention, Mr. 22980 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 Mclntyre, to page 2 of part one of this report, which 2 appears to be your semi-annual report dated October 1, 3 1966; do you have that? 4 A Page 2? 5 Q Yes. 6 A Yes. 7 Q Now, I am unable to read the third and fourth 8 paragraphs on my copy of this page 2. This is your 9 report, Mr. Mclntyre? 10 A Yes. 11 Q I realize it's sometime since you wrote it or it was 12 written for you, but could you assist me in reading 13 those two paragraphs? It's really the words on the 14 left-hand side of the margin on my copy? 15 A Yes, I have some difficulty with them too but I will 16 try and help you as best I can. 17 Q If you could do that -- 18 A It appears to say, and I will start with paragraph one 19 or two? 20 Q Paragraphs one and two I am less concerned with. I am 21 more concerned with paragraphs three and four, the 22 first line of paragraph 3, all I can see is "Of the 23 four bands." It may be intended to say "all of the 24 four bands in the agency continue to make fair use of 25 their band funds." 26 A Yes, I would guess that to be the proper wording. 27 Q Can you -- 28 A "All of the four bands in the agency continue to make 29 fair use of their band funds. Expenditures have been 30 in small amounts and thusfar for purposes not too 31 significant, considering that their annual budgets 32 only total a few thousand dollars. However, we -- " 33 Q "Feel"? 34 A Could be. "We feel..." that would make sense, "We 35 feel that the experience these band councils gain 36 through the administration of these few funds", et 37 cetera, et cetera, and then the next paragraph: "All 38 bands in this agency agreed to have their per capita 39 share of the B. C. Special vote funds turned over to 40 the Lakes District Indian Council for expenditure 41 again this year. This is anticipated to keep all 42 bands in this agency in contact with each other 43 through their district council. The agency housing 44 committee is made up of district council 45 representatives and this group has been most helpful 46 in decisions that have been made", et cetera. 47 Q Now, what was your understanding of what the B. C. 22981 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 Special vote was? 2 A The B. C. Special vote was understood to me to be an 3 amount, a special amount of money that was provided to 4 the non-treaty Indians of the Province of British 5 Columbia, a fund that was provided for them in 6 recognition that these people were not otherwise in 7 receipt of any other treaty monies. It was my 8 understanding further that the incumbent Indian 9 commissioner of the day was responsible for the annual 10 administration of this fund and it was my experience 11 that these funds tended to be used for economic 12 development purposes in the area of commercial 13 fishing, agriculture and what have you. 14 Q In your district, or in the Burns Lake Agency when you 15 were there, those funds would be used for such things 16 as buying power saws and outboard motors and 17 recreational activities and agricultural supplies? 18 A Yes. The division of the annual or the -- of the 19 annual provincial budget was being made to each agency 20 within the province, of those funds on a per capita 21 basis. And as a consequence, my agency received an 22 amount commensurate with the membership, with the band 23 membership of my agency, times the then prevailing per 24 capita rate and those -- the authority to expend those 25 funds was delegated to myself and, in turn, it was 26 delegated or the funds were then credited, again on a 27 per capita basis, to each of the bands in the agency 28 for them to spend as they chose. 29 Q So the bands participated in the decisions -- 30 A Yes. 31 Q Let me finish, if I may. So the bands participated in 32 the decision as to how to spend that part of the B. C. 33 Special vote money that came to them? 34 A That is correct. 35 Q As I was, as we were reading this extract from this 36 report, there was another agency, if you will, that I 37 am not familiar with. It's described here as the 38 Lakes District Indian Council; could you identify what 39 that group was? 40 A That was the council made up of representatives of the 41 four bands in the district and it was a useful forum 42 to help me remain in contact with the four bands as a 43 group, rather than on a band by band basis, and 44 allowed the native councils of each band to come into 45 knowledge of what other bands were doing, and to share 46 in the decision-making process of how agency 47 appropriations might be directed. 22982 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 Q Including, at least in one or two of these years, if 2 not more, those B. C. Special vote funds? 3 A No, not so much in regard to B. C. Special vote funds, 4 because that was done on a firm per capita basis on a 5 band by band basis. No, it was intended more as a 6 forum where I could share with the band councils the 7 amounts of government appropriations allocated to the 8 agency for such purposes as housing maintenance and 9 new construction and the other community 10 infrastructure kinds of projects that were to be made 11 or to be undertaken as a result of the appropriations 12 made to the agency. 13 Q Thank you. I do have a few questions about the annual 14 report which is at tab 4 of this book. Perhaps I 15 could ask you to turn to that. And that appears to me 16 to be the annual report for April, or the semi-annual 17 report for April, 1967, and I wish to refer first to 18 something which Mr. Macaulay read to you on page 3 of 19 that report. It's the fourth paragraph down under the 20 heading "Band Council Administration", and my note is 21 that he read this paragraph: 22 23 "All bands in this agency have completed their 24 annual revenue budgets for 1967-'68. This is 25 the first time that the Cheslatta and Omineca 26 bands have prepared a budget. The total 27 proposed expenditure by all bands in this 28 agency in 1967 amounts to $18,800, the largest 29 proposed expenditure since they began using 30 their funds." 31 32 33 If we could just turn back now for a moment to page 34 2, really the penultimate paragraph on that page, 35 under the heading "Community Organization" it reads: 36 "All bands in the District Council..." pausing there 37 for a minute, that would be the bands in your agency 38 as they get together in this Lakes District Council? 39 A Yes. 40 Q. 41 42 "...agreed to have their band's share of B. C. 43 Special funds credited to band funds in 44 1967-'68 for subsequent expenditure through 45 their revenue budgets. During the past two 46 years these funds have gone to the district 47 council where a budget was prepared according 22983 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 to the needs of the whole agency. We are 2 apprehensive as to what the loss of funds will 3 have on the continued life of the district 4 council." 5 6 7 My particular interest, Mr. Mclntyre, is to confirm 8 that B. C. Special funds were part of the band funds, 9 part of the funds that the various bands spent and 10 budgeted for during this period; can you confirm that 11 that's — 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- that I am reading those two paragraphs together 14 correctly? 15 A Yes, hm-hmm. 16 Q Now, I have got some questions now about documents 17 that aren't in your binder, and I am afraid that I 18 only have one copy of this book, it's Exhibit 1202, 19 provincial general documents, and I am going to have 20 to impose on Mr. Macaulay's pile of books here to come 21 and -- what I have got before you, Mr. Mclntyre, is 22 the tab number 99 in Exhibit 1202, and it's a 23 collection of documents that pertain generally 24 speaking to something called the Indian Advisory 25 Committee, and they -- they are not all one document, 26 there is some minutes of meetings and some letters and 27 some internal correspondence I am going to ask about 28 some of the documents in this tab here. 29 First of all, the very first item here is dated 30 February 20th, 1962, and it's identified as "Minutes 31 of the fourth meeting of Indian Advisory Committee to 32 the Indian Commissioner for B. C. for the expenditure 33 of the B. C. Special vote" and the date of the 34 meeting. Now, 1962, were you the assistant 35 superintendent in Merritt? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And what agency was that? 38 A The Nicola Agency. 39 Q The Nicola Agency. Thank you. And during your tenure 40 there, were you aware of the existence of something 41 known as the Indian Advisory Committee and so on, as 42 it's described there? 43 A I probably was at the time but I don't recollect it 4 4 now. 45 Q You don't have a specific recollection of it now? 46 A No, it was a committee that I didn't participate on. 47 Q There is no suggestion in this document that you were 22984 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 at this meeting or that you were a member of this committee. Do you recall -- you have a recollection now of what the Indian Advisory Committee to the Indian Commissioner for B. C. for the expenditure of the B.C. Special vote did? A No, I don't have any recollection. Q There is a letter here that later on in this tab, it's dated April 30, 1962 and it appears to be addressed to all superintendents except Fort St. John, from the Indian Commissioner for B. C. and then it's entitled B. C. Special vote and it's authored by Mr. Boys, who was then, to your knowledge, the Indian Commissioner for B. C? A Yes. THE COURT: Is that still tab 99? MR. PLANT: This is another document in tab 99, my lord. Q It says here: "You have, no doubt, presented to the various band councils the results of the fourth meeting of the Indian Advisory Committee, B. C. Special vote, held January 18th and 19th of this year. Branch has asked that we obtain the opinion of the band councils on the recommendations made by the committee with particular reference to that dealing with the size of the committee itself and the replacement of one member each year. Would you please ascertain the reactions of the councils in this regard and forward it to this office." Do you recall that document coming into your hands as assistant superintendent? A No. And the reason why I probably don't remember is that that kind of a matter would probably have been a matter that would have been dealt with by the superintendent of the Nicola Agency rather than his assistant. Q Right. Thank you very much, Mr. Mclntyre. I have no more questions. THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Grant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT: MR. GRANT: Q By the time you came to Burns Lake and became the superintendent, it appears from a review of what you described as your experience, you had, Mr. Mclntyre, some years of experience in working with Indian people in British Columbia, would you agree with that? 22985 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes. 2 Q And do you agree with -- in one of the documents, you 3 may recall there was a report on adult education in 4 one of your -- appended to one of your annual reports. 5 You reviewed the annual reports at tabs one to seven 6 prior to giving evidence, didn't you? 7 A Yes. 8 Q To help you remember some of the events? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you recall that, seeing that report? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And one of the comments that the teacher or the author 13 of that report made -- I take it you weren't the 14 author of that report, it sounds like it came from the 15 person in charge of the programme, is that right, the 16 adult education report, or do you remember? 17 A Do you have a copy of that report? 18 Q I will take you to the copy now. It's at tab 2 of 19 your book. Yes, the very last, actually it's Peter 20 Amyoony, very last page. 21 A Number 12599? 22 Q Well, unfortunately, they are all stamped 12599, all 23 of these reports. So at the very last page at tab 2. 24 A It's entitled Report on Adult Education Courses for 25 Natives, Burns Lake, October to December; is that 26 right? 27 Q I am talking about the very last page. Go right to 28 the last page. Peter Amyoony, you knew him, and he 29 was -- what was his position? 30 A I recall him to be a lay teacher of the parochial, of 31 the Catholic parochial school in Burns Lake, who 32 involved himself and was indeed interested in 33 educating or educational matters of the Indian people 34 in and around Burns Lake. 35 Q Okay. Now, he says under general comments on that 36 same page that, "I feel that the structure of such a 37 course..." he is referring to the adult educational 38 courses, "...should first and foremost have an 39 interest in the native people, not as statistics or 40 something to be studied by rather as people. He 41 should understand something of the social, 42 psychological psychological and ethical factors 43 involved in dealing with and communicating with these 44 people." 45 Now, just leaving it at those two comments, would 46 you agree that those -- that those attributes would be 47 an asset in the position that you held as well as 22986 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 2 A 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 23 THE COURT 24 MR. GRANT 25 26 27 Q 28 29 30 31 32 33 A 34 Q 35 36 37 38 A 39 40 Q 41 42 43 44 45 46 THE COURT 47 MR. GRANT superintendent in the Burns Lake Agency? Yes. And I take it from some of your comments in your evidence that you did and you have maintained an interest in the native people through your work? Yes. Would that be a fair comment? Yes. And when you were -- when you came to Burns Lake -- I am sorry, you came there from which area? From the Merritt area. Right. You were aware that you were dealing with a different aboriginal group than you were dealing with in the Nicola area? Yes. Did you undertake to understand something of the social factors of the Burns Lake Indian people that you were involved with? Yes. And the ethical factors? To the extent that one has time to do these things in the day-to-day activities of administering an agency. : I am not sure that word is ethical, is it? : I think -- thank you, my lord. I think it's ethnical, and I don't know if there is a word ethnical. But I will -- in any event, you have answered my questions about ethical factors, even though that is not the word there. But you would have -- you did make some effort to understand the culture and the social structure of the people that you worked with; is that right? Yes. And, in fact, that's one of -- you have reflected that and you were knowledgeable about the clans of the people at Burns Lake, I think you have even listed those today from memory? Some of them, I don't know if I have listed all of them or not. All right. Can you go back to Mr. Amyoony's report at the first page, this is just so that you -- this would appear to be October to December and it's appended to your April, 1966 report, so it implies that it might be from October to December of 1965. I am saying that because of the report it's attached to. : Which is April 1st, '66? : Which is April 1st, 1966. 22987 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 Q Now, if you go back four pages -- 2 A Yes, I think it's mentioned that I have attached that 3 report in my brief discussions on my report, page 4 four. 5 Q Right. Now, can you go to the front of the adult 6 education report itself, the Amyoony report, the first 7 page talking about attendance. The second paragraph: 8 "Allowing for bad weather on a few school nights and a 9 funeral on one occasion, I was very pleased with the 10 attendance." Now, first of all, where was this adult 11 education course, was it in Burns Lake itself? 12 A Yes, in Burns Lake. 13 Q Now -- and this was in October to December period. Do 14 you know what funeral he was referring to? 15 A No, I have no idea. I can't recall. 16 Q You would agree with me that this course of course was 17 was a course for the Indian people in Burns Lake? 18 A Oh, yes. 19 Q And that it would be a fair assumption that the 20 funeral he was talking about was a funeral event of an 21 Indian person? 22 A I am most certain it was, yes. 23 Q And you're aware that the feasting, that feasting 24 occurred after funerals in your district, you have 25 made some mention of that? 26 A Potlatch, which -- the term feasting was never used in 27 the Burns Lake area, like I know it to be used in the 28 Hazelton area. The common term used by Indian people 29 in the Burns Lake area was potlatch. 30 Q You know that -- and what did you understand when they 31 were talking about potlatch they were referring to? 32 A That it was a -- the occasion upon which the 33 obligation of a clan other than the clan of the 34 deceased, as the Indian people told me, they paid back 35 the bills or something like that. 36 Q And you didn't attend such a potlatch in Lake Babine, 37 you have indicated to Mr. Macaulay? 38 A No. 39 Q Although invited. But did you attend any such 40 feasting or potlatching in Burns Lake? 41 A No. 42 Q You would agree, though, you were knowledgeable that 43 these events would occur in the evenings or in the 44 night? 45 A Yes. 46 Q And that if -- and that that this adult education 47 course occurred in the evening from reading your 229? R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 report? 2 A Probably, yes. 3 Q You would agree that there could have been potlatches 4 in Burns Lake of which you were not aware when there 5 were deaths? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Now, when I read through the reports, tabs one through 8 five inclusive, of your -- taking them as a whole, it 9 appeared to me that one of the ongoing problems that 10 you attempted to resolve in your tenure in Burns Lake 11 was the problem of housing shortages, would that be 12 fair to say? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And that when you came there, you saw that as a 15 significant problem and it was one of the areas that 16 you focused on in your work there at least as 17 reflected in your reports? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And you would agree with that? 20 A Yes. 21 Q The other aspect that I see in your reports and we can 22 just turn to tab 1 for a moment as an example, page 2 23 of -- page 1 of tab 1. You have a sub heading, 24 "Management and Development of Resources", okay? The 25 very first page of tab 1? 26 A Yes. 27 Q And you see that, and that heading appears in many of 28 your reports, it may be all of them in fact, but it's 29 certainly a sub heading you used. But when I read 30 through the content of it would it be fair to say when 31 you talk about the management and development of the 32 resources, you were focusing, as was your mandate, on 33 the resources that were located on those reserves 34 within your agency? 35 A Yes. 36 Q And you did not generally deal with the question of 37 management and development of resources off the 38 reserves, they weren't within your -- 39 A They weren't within my jurisdiction or area of 40 responsibility or whatever you choose to call it. 41 Q Whenever we see the management and development of 42 resources in your reports, we should keep in mind that 43 we are talking about on-reserve resources? 44 A Yes. 45 Q I think you are taking about agriculture resources, 46 leasing of reserve lands to get revenue for bands and 47 this kind of thing? 22989 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes. 2 Q Now, one of the four bands that you have described as 3 your administrative area, Mr. Mclntyre, was the 4 Cheslatta band, and you are knowledgeable, if I may 5 refer you to your -- my friend's aide memoire, which 6 is I think it's exhibit -- it's a reduction of the 7 exhibit -- that Cheslatta actually had many parcels 8 but it was all indicated as Cheslatta number one but 9 there are, I think, ten parcels that I have counted 10 here? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And those parcels are widely dispersed throughout the 13 area between Oootsa Lake and Francois Lake? 14 A That's a fair statement, yes. 15 Q And they are interspersed of what was reserves of the 16 Omineca band? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Yesterday in your evidence you indicated that this was 19 unusual in terms of reserve administration to have 20 interspersing of two bands rather than having one band 21 dealing with a territorial area? 22 A Yes, I think it's unusual, yes. 23 Q And you were aware of the circumstances which led to 24 Cheslatta, the Cheslatta Number One Reserve being 25 created? 26 A In those nine or ten parcels that comprised that 27 reserve, yes, I am. 28 Q And you are aware that the Cheslatta band was formerly 29 located on Cheslatta Lake? 30 A Yes. 31 Q And if we again look at the aide memoire here, you 32 would agree with me that Cheslatta Lake is outside of 33 the black boundary, but these parcels of Cheslatta 34 number one are within the boundary? 35 A Yes. 36 Q And you are aware that that occurred around -- in the 37 early 1950s, that move of the Cheslatta people? 38 A That's my understanding, yes. 39 Q Okay. Well, I should correct myself here, on Exhibit 40 1221, the reserve general abstracts which were 41 tendered by the Federal Crown, tab 15, my lord, the 42 first entry relates to Cheslatta and it's order-in- 43 council P. C. 13255, 1964-931, and it's a transfer 44 from Canada to the Cheslatta band of Indians the 45 parcels of land as described in Schedule "A" attached 46 and it's lands set apart for the use and benefit of 47 the Cheslatta band of Indians as Cheslatta I.R. No. 1, 22990 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 land purchase to replace certain reserves of the band 2 sold to the Aluminum Company of Canada. That's your 3 understanding of what happened there? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And this reserve general register, while you were the 6 administrator in Burns Lake, you would have had a copy 7 of this within your agency office, wouldn't you? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Now, are you aware that the Cheslatta people -- you 10 described this afternoon that the Cheslatta people, to 11 your knowledge, did not feast as the Lake Babine 12 people did? 13 A Not to my knowledge. 14 Q Right. Are you aware that the Cheslatta people were a 15 different aboriginal group than the Lake Babine 16 people? 17 A I really had no firm idea in my mind. I suspected 18 that they were, but on the other hand they all spoke 19 the same language or appeared to understand each other 20 whenever they met, so I was never totally clear in my 21 mind as to whether they were or were not. 22 Q Did you pick up any words of the language? 23 A Very few. 24 Q Or languages? 25 Okay. Now, one of the initiatives that you 26 endeavoured to proceed with, while you were the -- in 27 your first days, was -- is set out at tab 1, and I 28 know this is sometime ago so I don't want to surprise 29 you, I would like you to have a chance to look at 30 this. If you look at page 3, Mr. Mclntyre, it has 31 Cheslatta and Omineca bands amalgamation. "We have 32 had no success in our attempts to amalgamate the 33 Cheslatta and Omineca bands." 34 If I may stop there, would it be fair to say, and I 35 am going to go on, but would it be fair to say that as 36 the administrative, senior administrative officer for 37 the Burns Lake Agency, your agency office was 38 motivated for administrative purposes to combine these 39 two bands whose reserves were so proximate to each 40 other and interspersed amongst each other, was that 41 the reason for amalgamating them? 42 A That was part of the reason. I think there was 43 another reason as well, and the other reason was that 44 there appeared to be a real absence of leadership 45 capability at the time within the Cheslatta band which 46 there appeared to be, on the other hand, some 47 leadership capability within the membership of the 22991 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 Omineca band. And it was to -- it was partly, not 2 totally I admit, but partly felt by myself and others 3 who were there before me, that the Cheslatta band 4 might enjoy a better quality of band leadership were 5 they to amalgamate with the band. So certainly there 6 was administrative convenience as well. 7 Q If they amalgamated with the Omineca band? 8 A Yes. 9 Q But would you agree with me, and your report indicates 10 that you, for example, did go down to the Cheslatta 11 area, the Grassy Plains area on the Cheslatta 12 reserves? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And that's an area that was farms, individual farms 15 that were parcels, that were transferred to Cheslatta? 16 A Yes. 17 Q The Cheslatta people on these individual parcels were 18 much more spread out than most of your bands, would 19 you agree with that? 20 A Yes, hmm. It was virtually a situation of one family 21 per parcel and that was, you know, that was just a 22 fact that there was very little membership cohesion 23 between these people because of that geographical 24 separation of one family from another. 25 Q Would it be fair to say that in your time there was no 26 community of Cheslatta, that is no one place where 27 people could get together? 28 A That's fair to say, yes, yes. 29 Q And from your subsequent work would you agree that 30 that really has remained the same? 31 A Yes, I believe that situation exists today. 32 Q Now, I did say I would go on and I don't want to not 33 go on in this statement on page 3 of your report: "The 34 Omineca band have agreed to amalgamate but the 35 Cheslatta band remain unwilling. Personal 36 differences, lack of understanding and the lack of a 37 tangible advantage appear to be the reasons behind the 38 reluctance of the Cheslatta band." 39 You would agree that if the Cheslatta people were 40 different than the Omineca people, this would be 41 another reason as well for their reluctance to join 42 with the Omineca band? 43 A I think I have covered that under personal 44 differences. 45 Q That's if they were different people? 46 A Yes. 47 Q Fair enough. Of course from your description at this 22992 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 stage, if the amalgamation had gone through and from 2 your description of the relatively good leadership 3 among the Omineca people, as compared to the 4 Cheslatta, the Cheslatta people would really have come 5 within the Omineca leadership, that's what you foresaw 6 would have happened? 7 A Yes. 8 Q If you could just go to tab 1, part two, this would be 9 right after page six, my lord. This is under 10 management of resources. Just as a clarification, Mr. 11 Mclntyre, because I wasn't exactly sure, you have your 12 reports in two parts, is the second part an earlier 13 interim report or do you remember? It seems to cover 14 some of the same areas, although it's certainly a 15 different discussion. Do you remember why you had 16 them in two parts? 17 A I am sorry, I can't remember. 18 Q That's fine. Thank you. Anyway, under part two, you 19 had agriculture, and you said: "In those areas where 20 there is indication of Indian interest and potential, 21 we will continue our programme of breaking, clearing 22 and fencing of Indian lands. Most of this work will 23 be carried out in the southern area of the agency for 24 members of the Cheslatta and Omineca bands." Here you 25 were talking about that area that I pointed out to you 26 on the map between Francois and Ootsa lakes? 27 A Yes. 28 Q And you will agree that as opposed to logging and as 29 opposed to trapping, that that area was primarily at 30 the time you were there, cleared agricultural land, 31 that is the reserve lands? 32 A Yes, agriculture appeared to offer the best 33 opportunities, you know, other than seasonal logging 34 activities that might be available as an employment 35 source to members of those bands, yes. 36 Q Do you recall whether that was a prime logging area at 37 the time you were there in that region? 38 A No, I don't think I considered it then to be a prime 39 logging area. It was across the lake, there were a 40 lot of private landholders there and a lot of 41 private -- and a lot of logging on private land 42 holdings. So, it -- the opportunities to me at the 43 time appeared to be more more in the agriculture area, 44 insofar as reserve development was concerned. There 45 was very little standing timber on Indian reserve 46 lands. 47 Q If, for example, the Cheslatta people or the Omineca 22993 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 A 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 24 Q 25 THE COURT 26 MR. GRANT 27 THE COURT 28 29 A 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 MR. GRANT 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 47 A people that were living down there wished to be engaged in the logging area they would -- the better logging developments would have been north of Francois Lake at that time? Well, no, they had opportunities to go logging to or obtain logging and small saw milling jobs for non-natives that were in the area. But there were no sizeable sawmills, they were small, they were small bush mills and consequently, small bush operations that were going on there at the time, and still do go on. The larger scale logging operations, as you say, tended to occur in the area north of Burns Lake and in recent years, in the area south and west of -- or south and east of Ootsa Lake. Yesterday you mentioned about the split between the Omineca band at Broman Lake and Neetahbhun bands respectively. Do you recall when that occurred? After -- it occurred after I left Indian Affairs. Okay. It occurred while you were with special ARDA? Yes. That's your -- you don't recall when -- No, when I left Indian Affairs they were still identified as the Omineca band. Okay. So that happened after 19 -- '82 that would be. After 19 -- well, you were there at Burns Lake from '64 to '69, it hadn't happened then? No, it hadn't happened up until the beginning of 1982 either. It was sometime after the beginning of 1982 that apparently occurred and, in fact, I believe it occurred some several months in fact after I became aware that it had occurred. It was only through a casual conversation with one of my former co-workers at Indian Affairs that I discovered that this separation had occurred. It occurred several months before this conversation? Yes. You said after. I think you meant before. Yes. Okay. Now, you know where Broman Lake, the Broman Lake band is located? I know where Broman Lake is, yes. And you know where the band offices are at Broman Lake? Yes. 22994 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 6 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 16 A 17 18 THE COURT 19 MR. GRANT 20 21 A 22 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 27 A 28 29 THE COURT 30 31 MR. GRANT 32 33 34 THE COURT 35 MR. GRANT 36 Q 37 38 A 39 MR. GRANT 40 41 THE COURT 42 43 44 (PR' 45 46 47 And they are close to Broman Lake? Yes. And if we look at the south shore of Francois Lake, between Francois and Ootsa, as the Neetahbun are, that is those former Omineca band reserves, become Neetahbhun, you know where those are located and where that band facility would be located at Neetahbhun? Yes. And you would agree with me that these two locations, these two communities, were very far apart geographically? Yes. And also in terms of travel facility they were far apart because you have to take a ferry across and some time to get from one to the other? Yes, probably an hour's distance between existing band offices. : Tell me again where Broman Lake is? : Broman Lake is on Highway 16 and it would be, jsut off Highway 16, is it not? Well, it's, for all intents and purposes, is right on Highway 16 between Topley and the community of -- Roses Lake? Yes. So what is on the map is Duncan Lake number two in fact that would be the Broman Lake -- I think Broman Lake is just one of the other little lakes besides Duncan Lake. : Just north of the claimed territory, external boundary, is it? : No, it's just within, my lord, if you see -- it's labelled as Duncan Lake number two but that would be the Broman Lake reserve now. : Oh, yes. : Topley and Ross Lake on Highway 16. There is a series of lakes there, Duncan Lake and Broman Lake are close together? I think they are right side by side. : I note the time my lord, maybe you wish to break now. : Yes, all right. We will adjourn until 2 o'clock please. Thank you. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH) 22995 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein to the best of my skill and ability. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Wilf Roy Official Reporter 22996 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 (P 2 3 THE COURT 4 MR. GRANT 5 Q 6 7 8 9 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS) : Mr. Grant. : Thank you, my lord. Mr. Mclntyre, my understanding from looking at the later documents is that when you -- since 1982, since you've become involved with DREE, that department, and with special ARDA you have had contact not only with Indian people in Burns Lake, but Indian people in the Hazelton area. That's correct? Yes. And you've had contact with people from the Burns Lake area as well, I assume? Yes, that's correct. Where would your special ARDA work take you? What region or area would you cover? Well, there has been changes in the geographical area over the years, but the Hazelton area. The area that I think you are concerned, or this court case is concerned with has always been -- has always included the Hazelton area. I have travelled occasionally as far north as the Yukon boundary, and occasionally as far -- as far west as Prince Rupert, and occasionally as far south as the Kootney's, but those have been the exceptions rather than what I might call the rule. The Burns Lake area has always been in your area? Oh, yes. And Burns Lake and the Hazelton area. And how far west have you usually gone? Usually as far as Kitwanga. Okay. You have heard the term Carrier, have you not? Yes. You've heard the term Gitksan? Yes. You've heard the term Wet'suwet'en? Yes. And the term Nutsone? No. You knew Paddy Isaac? No. He was deceased by the time I had gone to Burns Lake. You knew Michell Alec? No. He was deceased as well by the time you left there? I believe so, yes. Is it correct to say that in your dealings in Burns Lake in the 1964 period and following, and even when 22997 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 you were in Prince George, with Indian Affairs you 2 dealt with Indian people as band members? When I say 3 that is that you -- that was how you worked with 4 people was through -- not necessarily through the 5 bands, but if you looked at an individual you were 6 determining what band he was in, for example, as 7 opposed to say whether the person was a Cheslatta, a 8 Nutsone, a Wet'suwet'en, a Gitksan? You would look at 9 him, well that person's a member of the Moricetown 10 band, or he's a member of the Omineca band. That's 11 sort of the way your administration would work? 12 A Well, whenever there was a need for me to prepare 13 documentation that involved the naming of certain 14 individuals certainly I in addition to their name and 15 in my correspondence, not with them so much but with 16 my headquarters people, I was expected and did refer 17 to their band name and band number. 18 Q M'hm. 19 A But as far as being consciously aware of, yeah, I knew 20 that they were members of the Cheslatta band and 21 Omineca band and that they were -- that they were 22 Carrier speaking people. And what else can I say? 23 Q Okay. Well, let us take the case of Mathew Sam and 24 Christine Holland and that estate that you have some 25 involvement with that Mr. Macaulay asked you about. 26 And let's just take the case of estates generally, if 27 I may. Did you have any knowledge or awareness of how 28 the Carrier people that you worked with, how 29 descendancy operated within their system at that time? 30 A I was not given to understand during the course of my 31 conversation that there was any -- that there was 32 any -- there was any real significance in this regard. 33 The fact that they came to me occasionally and asked 34 for my assistance in the preparation of wills 35 suggested to me that there was not any strong feeling 36 on their part that some other -- that some other 37 system prevailed. The fact that they came to me to 38 help them prepare a will of itself gave me to 39 understand that they wanted to -- to do things their 40 way. And as for that -- that event relating to their 41 custom or to -- or not to their custom was really 42 not -- was not a thing upon which I focused. 43 Q You were aware of the Indian Act provisions with 44 respect to estates? 45 A Yes. 46 Q You had to administer them, I dare say. 47 A Oh, yes. 2299? R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 Q And you are aware and agree that under Indian Act 2 regulations that a will or no valid will provided on 3 intestatacy the estate of an Indian generally 4 followed -- went by matrilineal descent. You would 5 agree with that? You know what I mean by matrilineal 6 descent? 7 A There were regulations pursuant to that section of the 8 Indian Act that occasionally came into play, but I 9 will tell you that I was aware that there was -- that 10 there was in some bands a matrilineal consciousness or 11 a preference, or something of that nature, but I never 12 felt that that was a strong feeling during the course 13 of my dealings with Indian people. I was -- 14 Q You didn't deal with that? 15 A I was never given information by the Indian people 16 that suggested that that was -- that was a strong 17 cultural thing to which they attached. 18 Q But, for example, with Lake Babine you agreed that the 19 potlatch was a strong cultural thing to which they 20 attached? 21 A Yes. But I didn't see that by and large terribly 22 contradictory to a lot of things that were going on at 2 3 the time. 24 Q Would you not agree that if you had attended a 25 potlatch your view may have been different, but you 26 really can't comment on that would impact on other -- 27 A No, I don't. 28 Q You don't know how, because my understanding of your 29 evidence is that you have actually never gone to a 30 potlatch within your agency? 31 A I was never made to feel very welcome there except on 32 one or two occasions when I was actually invited. 33 Even then when I was invited I wasn't sure of the 34 authority of the person who invited me that I should 35 attend or that I should actually -- that I should 36 actually attend. After all I was a government person 37 and I was sensitive to -- to treading into areas of -- 38 of Indian life where perhaps I ought not to be. 39 Q On the occasions on which you were invited to attend a 40 potlatch was it when you had attended a funeral? 41 A I never attended a funeral by my own policy. 42 Q Was that by your own policy, is that what you're just 43 referring to? 44 A Yes. My -- because I felt to attend one funeral would 45 show a measure of respect or something to one 46 individual that I might not choose to show to another 47 person. And there was no way that I could attend all 22999 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 of the funerals of -- 2 Q Right. 3 A Of people in my area so I felt the best -- the best 4 thing to do in the circumstances was to -- was to 5 politely express my condolences, but not to actually 6 attend the funeral. 7 Q Can you -- something else comes through your reports, 8 Mr. Mclntyre. It appears from your reports that you 9 made an effort to improve the relations between Indian 10 people and non-Indian people in your agency. Would 11 that be a fair statement? 12 A Yes. 13 Q During your tenure? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And it also appears -- in fact, I believe you were 16 involved in encouraging and setting up a committee, I 17 can't recall the name of it, but it's reflected in 18 your report. You recall that, what I'm referring to? 19 You're nodding affirmatively. You just have to 20 speak for the record. You agree with that? 21 A M'hm. Yes. 22 Q It also appears that when you came to Burns Lake one 23 of the problems that you set about to try to help 24 alleviate was racism within the community. That is 25 the attitude of non-Indians towards Indians was a 26 racist attitude. You would agree with that? 27 A Yes. 28 Q And your reports reflect what you did. Not 29 necessarily everything, but obviously the kinds of 30 things you try to do to improve that relationship. 31 When you got there there were Babine Lake Indians that 32 had prior to your arrival moved into Burns Lake. 33 That's your evidence; is that right? 34 A That is correct. 35 Q And, in fact, the way -- and I think it's 36 W-A-Y-E-N-N-E Indian reserve was a reserve that you 37 assisted in creating while you were there from Burns 38 Lake, is that right, or transferring -- 39 A The reserve had been created prior to my arrival. 4 0 Q Good. Yeah. 41 A But I was involved in the enlargement of that reserve. 42 And I was involved in -- in the naming of that 43 reserve. 44 Q That is W-O-Y-E-N-N-E? 45 A Yes. The common pronounciation is Woyenne. 46 Q Woyenne? 47 A Right. 23000 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 Q 2 3 A 4 5 6 7 8 Q 9 A 10 THE COURT 11 A 12 THE COURT 13 A 14 THE COURT 15 MR. GRANT 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 A 40 41 42 43 44 Q 45 A 46 47 And where does that name come from that you were involved in? It was a name that was devised by the council of the band at the time. And I believe it has something to do with the -- with the ability to see the sunset in the -- in the southwestern horizon of that area because -- From that -- Because the area has a southerly slope to it. : How is it spelled again? W-O-Y-E-N-N-E. : W-O-Y-E-N-N-E? Right. : Thank you. So that name is a name in the Carrier language? Yes. And you encouraged -- you encouraged or at least supported the band's desire to have the name reflect something from their own society, I take it? Yes. As the superintendent, and if I remember your evidence correctly, the Woyenne reserve was a reserve that came under the administration ultimately of the Lake Babine band? Yes. Is that right? M'hm. And that's what I was referring to when Mr. Macaulay suggested that I didn't know what was outside the area. I thought that was your evidence. And I understand as well from the documents in your reports and from your own reports that one reason why you -- you encouraged that to come under the administration of the Lake Babine band was so it would be a place for the Lake Babine people who had moved into Burns Lake area to live under their own administration; is that right? The encouragement and original establishment of that reserve, it was formerly part of a Burns Lake Indian reserve number 18, was actually initiated by Mr. Desmarais, who was the Indian superintendent in Burns Lake who I replaced. Could you spell the name? D-E-S-M-A-R-A-I-S. So, in effect, he had done most of the paperwork that was necessary to transfer the ownership of a portion of the Burns Lake Indian 23001 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 reserve from the Burns Lake band to the Lake Babine 2 band. 3 Q M'hm. 4 A The paperwork had not been completed when I arrived 5 there. 6 Q So you finished the job? 7 A The name -- the new name and number had not yet come 8 into existence so I encouraged that. And the outcome 9 was -- was the naming of that reserve and the 10 numbering of it. And, secondly, I was then 11 subsequently involved in the negotiations that 12 occurred between the Lake Babine band and the Burns 13 Lake band for a further purchase of additional land 14 which was then added to Woyenne IR number 27 from a 15 portion of Burns Lake IR number 18. 16 Q Okay. And that's reflected in your reports, if I can 17 recall rightly, that later transfer? 18 A Yes. 19 Q You are familiar with the hardship that the Lake 20 Babine people had faced prior to getting land where 21 they could live on in Burns Lake when they moved in? 22 A Yes. 23 Q You're familiar with that from your review of the 24 files and knowledge of that? 25 A Oh, yeah. 26 Q And are you aware of an area of Burns Lake on the road 27 to Pendleton Bay where just off the road -- the road 28 from highway 16 goes off and there's a junction with 29 the road to Pendleton Bay. You're familiar with that? 30 A M'hm. 31 Q And there was a former Burns Lake dump in that area? 32 A Yes. 33 Q And the area was known as the dump pile? 34 A Yes. 35 Q And that was an area where up until in the '50s the 36 Lake Babine Indians were effectively squatting? 37 A Yes. 38 Q And they had no -- at that time from your review and 39 knowledge of the records and the history at that time 40 they didn't have housing, they didn't have plumbing, 41 they were in -- not in a very good situation, and they 42 didn't have the housing provided that you in your term 43 assisted to provide? 44 A That is correct. 45 Q Okay. Now, another feature that in an analysis of 46 your report -- of your reports -- by the way, these 47 reports at tabs 1 to 5 they end in September of '87. 23002 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 Does this encompass all of your annual reports while 2 you were in Burns Lake? 3 A Well, sometime during my term in Burns Lake there 4 ceased to be a requirement for these reports, and I 5 have to tell you that I can't recall exactly when that 6 happened, and therefore I can't tell you whether or 7 not the documents in my book comprise or do not 8 comprise all of my semi-annual reports. 9 Q I see. 10 MR. MACAULAY: We couldn't find any reports after the report tab 11 5, which is the report for October 1st, 1967. There's 12 a file that had them all in. That's all there was. 13 MR. GRANT: Thank you, Mr. Macaulay. 14 Q Can you go to page four of tab 1. And this is another 15 theme that appears throughout your reports, it seems 16 to me, and I just want to be sure that my -- 17 A Page four? 18 Q Yeah, page four of tab 1. That would be part one, 19 too. 20 A Okay. 21 Q Are you there? You see "Development in Band Council 22 Administration"? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And here you say: 25 26 "While positive improvements have been noticed 27 in some of the Band Councils in this Agency, it 28 is apparent that we shall have to hold more 29 meetings to provide additional contact with 30 these leaders in order to increase their rate 31 of development. Since attendance at meetings 32 is difficult for reason of expense and 33 distance, additional means for compensation for 34 loss of wages and expense will have to be 35 found. This is particularly evident by the 36 Lake Babine Band who usually meet at Burns 37 Lake." 38 39 And then you describe where some of those 40 councillors are coming from as far away as 150 miles 41 at Babine. 42 A M'hm. 43 Q Now, would it be correct from -- from a reading of 44 your reports, this appears to me to be the case, that 45 when you came in to Burns Lake, Mr. Mclntyre, that 46 more of the administration at that time was being 47 carried out directly by the agency office, by the 23003 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A 8 Q 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 A 16 17 Q 18 19 20 21 A 22 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 27 28 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 39 40 41 A 42 Q 43 44 45 46 A 47 ] MR. GRANT departmental staff, and over the course of your time you were there in some form of a transition where you encouraged the development of band leadership and that band councils took on more of the administrative tasks that had formerly been in the hands of the department directly? I think that's true. And, in fact, when we look at the final report of the series I believe it is that near the end you're even suggesting that persons be hired as band managers who would come in and work in the department's own -- the agency's own office and get training there. Do you recall being involved in the transition or development of actually suggesting band managers be trained? No, I don't recall having reached that -- that stage. But I won't quarrel with you. Perhaps I did. It's only a suggestion you're making in this last report so your memory may be better. You just say this is something that can be done, but it appeared it hasn't been done at the time of your final report? I was probably setting it as a possible future objective, but it -- Okay. No such thing occurred during my time there. Would it be fair to say that this rate of development in the leaders was a rate of development that you were encouraging among the band council and chief councillors under the Indian Act, that's who you're referring to as the leaders in this area? Oh, yes. Yes. And would it be correct to say that you were encouraging them to take on more of the departmental tasks, administration? Yes. I think that's fair. Okay. And equally would it be fair to say as you've said regarding the position you had as a government representative that you were not here talking about the leadership within any traditional system which you left basically to the people to deal with as they wanted? Yes. Okay. Can you go to tab 3 for a moment. I'm going to return to the other tab 1, but part two, and that would be the page immediately following, page three. Do you have that? Yes. : Do you have that, my lord? 23004 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE COURT: Yes. MR. GRANT: Q Under Community Organizations you refer to: "Miss Marjorie Smith and Mr. Tom Brown who are on the Indian Leadership programme will be returning to the Burns Lake Agency in October to work with the Councils of the Cheslatta and Omineca Bands in particular and also to help the Babine Lake Band prepare for Band Fund management under section 68. We appreciate the assistance and counselling this team have given to Agency and our Band Councils." Now, this band fund management under section 68, is this the provisions in which the department makes a declaration that by order-in-council that a band has reached an advanced stage of development and can administer certain funds, is that what you were referring to? A Yes. Q And at that point in time, at least as the time -- this is your October 1st, '66 report -- Cheslatta and Omineca, in fact, had not done -- they were just getting involved in making funding decisions as band councils; is that right? A I think they had been involved for a year or two prior to 1968, but — Q This is '66. I'm sorry. You may have misheard me. A Okay. Fine. Q Yes. Okay. A M'hm. Q And if you could just go to tab 5. Well, that's all right. I already asked you regarding that. Well, maybe I will because it may -- tab 5, page four -- page three at the bottom actually, the Band Council Administration. You state: "In the course of our meetings with the Council of the Lake Babine Band we have been holding discussions on the possibility of this Band having a Band Manager." Would it be fair to say at this time the Lake Babine band was the one that was furthest along in 23005 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 this development of taking over administration? 2 A Yes. 3 Q That certainly appears to be the case. 4 A Yes. 5 Q And then you suggest that: 6 7 "Sufficient space exists in a vacant office on 8 the same floor as the Agency Office in the 9 Burns Lake Federal Building that could be used 10 to set up a Band Administration Centre." 11 12 And then you refer to the office and supplies. 13 14 "We believe an ideal situation could be made 15 for a Band Manager." 16 17 Then you suggest that: 18 19 "The biggest problem facing this Band in this 20 regard is the matter of finding a capable band 21 member for the position. As the matter now 22 stands it is proposed that two or three 23 existing Council Members who expect to be 24 unemployed later this year, will come into our 25 office for a week or two each, and by working 26 with Agency Staff on in day to day Band 27 matters, they will become familiar with the 28 routine that a Band Manager will likely be 2 9 involved with." 30 31 The last sentence is: 32 33 "The Lake Babine Band now have a local 34 population approaching four hundred and I 35 believe that a Band Manager could do much to 36 help in the advancement of the band." 37 38 Now, from my reading of that this was where I say 39 you had your proposal, and I think this is your last 40 report in this series, in any case, that you saw. 41 Again it seems clear that administration tasks would 42 be taking over the departmental tasks, those tasks 43 that the agency was previously -- 44 A In some of them. Not all of them, but some of them. 45 Q Of course. I'm not suggesting all of them. 46 Now, the other aspect that Mr. Macaulay did refer 47 you to in your reports is an aspect of employment 23006 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 opportunities. And you refer to this, for example, at 2 tab 2, part two. Tab 2 is your 1966 April report. 3 I'm sorry. My lord, just one moment. I'll refer you 4 to another. Tab 4, I will move back to that. I have 5 the references. It just appears that I don't have 6 them here. Let me just -- 7 I'll come back to the employment opportunities, 8 Mr. Mclntyre, but what I was gonna ask you from a 9 review of your report you often say there is money in 10 local employment opportunities. You use that term 11 local employment or employment for local men or things 12 like that? 13 A M'hm. 14 Q I just wanted to be clear whether when you used that 15 term in the employment you're referring to the area 16 around Burns Lake; is that right? 17 A No. To the agency as a whole. 18 Q Well, would you be referring generally to the area 19 around Old Fort? 20 A Well, there were -- there was nobody living at Old 21 Fort then. There were people living at Fort Babine, 22 but they had -- they were perhaps the group of people 23 that had the least opportunities of all. But even 24 there -- even there there was winter -- there was 25 winter employment opportunities in logging activities. 26 Q Okay. Well, let me -- I'm going to give you a 27 specific reference, too, because I want to be sure 28 your answer applies to them. 29 A Okay. 30 Q Now, in your first -- in tab 4, part two, that would 31 be the page immediately following page three, you say: 32 33 "During the greater part of 1966-67" 34 35 The second paragraph. 36 37 "This Agency did not have any reliable or 38 economical means of vehicle or boat 39 transportation in this Agency. As a result of 40 this we were unable to visit the reserves in 41 the Agency as often as we desired to. This 42 problem has now been solved through the 43 acquisition of new vehicles and a new launch. 44 Regular visits to all occupied reserves, at 45 least as often as twice monthly have now been 46 scheduled for the forthcoming year. We feel 47 that these visits will improve our knowledge of 23007 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 the Agency and will result in overall 2 improvement of the administration." 3 4 This is your March 31st or your April 8, 1967 5 report. And I take it that your comments with respect 6 to 1966-67 would equally apply to your first year 7 there in 1965, the problems of vehicles, and that was 8 a problem you had until you got these? 9 A No. We had a very, very poor vehicle up to this 10 point. 11 Q Right. 12 A And the boat that we had up until this point was 13 totally unsuitable for travel on Babine Lake. And 14 this comment relates to a new vehicle or vehicles, one 15 at least, that we had acquired at that point in time, 16 and a new larger size boat. 17 Q Right. What I meant was your comment: 18 19 "During the greater part of 1966-67 this Agency 20 did not have any reliable or economical means 21 of vehicle or boat transportation in this 22 Agency." 23 24 That comment applied equally to 1965. You didn't 25 lose something, in other words? 26 A We bought a boat. 27 Q In 1965? 28 A Yes. 29 Q Oh, I see. 30 A And we had one very poor vehicle up to that point, so. 31 Q Up to this time? 32 A Yeah. M'hm. 33 Q Well, up to this time prior to your acquisition of the 34 new boat and the new vehicle how often would you visit 35 say Pendleton Bay? 36 A Oh, Pendleton Bay was easy to visit. And my 37 assistant, in fact, had a -- had a routine of once a 38 week visits to Pendleton Bay. Even though the people 39 at Pendleton Bay did not live on Indian reserves they 40 were nevertheless part of the Lake Babine Indian band 41 and we felt an obligation that we would give them some 42 attention. 43 Q Right. What about -- well, of course, the Burns Lake 44 and the Lake Babine band at Woyenne were right there 45 so that was no problem? 4 6 A M'hm. 47 Q What about Cheslatta, how often would you go down to 2300? R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 Cheslatta across the lake? 2 A Again, my assistant travelled there once a week. He 3 could visit with members and councils of both Omineca 4 and Cheslatta bands almost at will. There were times 5 of the year when the lake was frozen and the -- and 6 the ferry system was out, and while it was still 7 possible for him to go there he had the choice of risk 8 a crossing on lake ice or driving away around the west 9 end of Francois Lake past Mathew Sam's home and then 10 back again in an easterly direction of those reserves. 11 There were times of the year when our travel was 12 curtailed to the southern areas. 13 Q What about yourself, how often would you visit? 14 A He went more often than I did. I tended to go there 15 if there was some pressing issue or band council 16 meeting or something of that nature. 17 Q Where would the Cheslatta band council meet? Would 18 they meet at your offices? 19 A Usually in somebody's home. Or I can recall having 20 meetings in the basement of the church at Grassy 21 Plains. And then in later years they -- they built a 22 little community hall with -- with -- and that could 23 be used for meetings. 24 Q But the Grassy Plains church wasn't on the reserve? 25 A Yes. It was on parcel number nine of IR1. 26 Q What about this community hall, was it built on -- 27 A It was built on another parcel. 28 Q Was it on one of the parcels of the reserve? 29 A Yes. It was also on one of the parcels of IR1. 30 Q What about Felix George reserve on Owen Lake, how 31 often did you -- 32 A We didn't really go there unless there was a lease 33 application. There was no one living there. The 34 reserve lake shore which was really a very small part 35 of the total reserve had been subdivided prior to my 36 arrival in Burns Lake and a number of lots had by then 37 been also leased and there wasn't really very much 38 more leasing that occurred, new leasing that occurred 39 after I arrived there. 40 Q M'hm. What about -- well, you didn't go up to -- to 41 Fort Babine, or I'm sorry, Old Fort Babine. How often 42 did you go up to Fort Babine? 43 A Oh, on average about once a month, except for that 44 time of the year when there was neither firm ice upon 45 which to land an aircraft or water upon which to float 46 a boat. And there was -- at that time there was only 47 winter road access if the logging company chose to 23009 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 open a road across the swamps and through the woods. 2 And I did travel the road route on a couple of 3 occasions. 4 Q But you went up there as much as once a month 5 yourself, or are you talking about your office staff? 6 A My office staff. I tended to go to Fort Babine or 7 to -- Fort Babine -- 8 Q M'hm. 9 A -- And one or two occupied reserves on the way to Fort 10 Babine. Those reserves being at Smithers Landing and 11 IR9 more often than my assistant. My assistant had 12 some aversion to flying in small aircraft and I 13 didn't, and he didn't like boats and I didn't mind 14 them so we agreed between us that he would -- he would 15 tend to work in the area south of Burns Lake on 16 routine kinds of things and I would look after the 17 northern end of Babine Lake and Topley Landing and 18 places like that. 19 Q Would it be fair to say that you as superintendent 20 that probably over 50 percent of your work was of -- 21 your time while you were there would have been working 22 out of the office itself? 23 A Yes. I've never calculated the time, but that seems 24 reasonable. 25 Q That would be reasonable? 26 A Oh, yeah. 27 Q Well over half the time you would be doing that? 28 A Oh, yeah. 29 Q One of the things that you said in answer to a 30 question of Mr. Macaulay was you talked about your 31 visits to people's homes. And you said in your visits 32 to homes you didn't notice fur being prepared. The 33 way you described it it appeared to me, and I may be 34 wrong, that you had a picture in your mind of what you 35 were thinking of when you gave that answer 'cause you 36 explained it fairly clearly. Where were you thinking 37 of that you went? Whose homes are you thinking of 38 that you went to that you didn't see any evidence of 39 fur -- of trapping? I'm not -- if you can't remember 40 individuals that's fine, but really I'm asking are you 41 talking about people in Woyenne and Burns Lake reserve 42 that were proximate or are you talking about people at 43 Cheslatta? 44 A I was in most everyone's home at one time or another 45 at various times of the year throughout the agency 4 6 throughout my time there. 47 Q M'hm. 23010 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 A 2 3 4 5 Q 6 A 7 8 9 10 Q 11 12 13 14 A 15 16 Q 17 A 18 19 20 Q 21 A 22 23 24 25 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 30 31 A 32 33 Q 34 THE COURT 35 A 36 37 MR. GRANT 38 Q 39 A 40 41 Q 42 43 44 45 46 A 47 Q During the course of my visits I saw greater evidence of fur preparation being done at places like Smithers Landing and Fort Babine and Topley Landing than I did -- than I did elsewhere. Right. And if I didn't see fur being prepared I saw other subtle signs of trapping activities such as snowshoes leaning against the back door or traps hanging in the veranda or things of that nature. From my -- from my following, and I roughly sketched, this isn't to bind you, but you described as your area that Smithers Landing would be one of the northern most villages? The main village was, of course, at Babine, or as I have been referring to Fort Babine right there. Yes. That's labelled Babine? Another reserve right about here somewhere, and another reserve right in here. Of course, Old Fort reserve -- And right here -- -- Is right here. There were reserves, small reserves right here. A family or two occupying a reserve here, and family or two occupying a reserve here, and then the main village at Fort Babine where there was a Hudson Bay store. That's what's labelled Babine here? Yes. And you indicated two others on reserves between Smithers Landing and Babine on the east side of Babine Lake? One on the east down here at Smithers Landing and one up at IR9 right here on the west side. Okay. : Where did you say Old Fort was? Old Fort is right there. It was a reserve where I could find people during the summer months. Yes. But people did not tend to live there at all during the winter. Okay. Now, so it's in these northern -- your clarification assists, but I just want -- I think that my point -- my understanding may still be correct that it was in these northern more villages that you saw more evidence of trapping and fur as you've described? Yes. Okay. Can you look at tab 2, page one. Excuse me. 23011 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 If you look in the Amalgamation of Agencies paragraph 2 there on the first page you say: 3 4 "We have given some consideration during the 5 period of how this Agency might become 6 amalgamated into a district with one or more 7 other Agencies. We have been looking closely 8 at population centres (Indians), existing and 9 proposing industrial areas, roads, waterways, 10 communications, and locations of other 11 Government Agencies. Thus far it appears that 12 the Burns Lake Agency could join the Babine 13 Agency." 14 15 Now, just stopping there. Who initiated the 16 concept of the amalgamation of the agencies, was 17 that -- when I say who, was that initiative commencing 18 from your perspective from the department or the 19 branch or was that initiative commencing from the 20 clients, the bands? 21 A That was an initiated from the Vancouver regional 22 office at the time. 23 Q Thank you. 24 A And those comments were written in response somewhat 25 to that initiative. And that was my opinion at the 2 6 time -- 27 Q M'hm. 28 A -- That that amalgamation might -- if such an 2 9 amalgamation were to occur that the department might 30 consider an amalgamation of the Burns Lake Agency with 31 the agency at Hazelton. 32 Q Right. 33 A But as you know what eventually happened the 34 amalgamation went the other way. 35 Q Right. Were you familiar with connections between 36 those -- those bands on Lake Babine and the 37 Wet'suwet'en people at Moricetown and Hagwilget? 38 A No, not particularly. My comments arose more as a 39 result of geographical considerations than anything 40 else. 41 Q Those things that you refer to like roads -- 42 A In fact, what does not appear in there was my 43 suggestion that if such amalgamation between Burns 44 Lake and Hazelton would occur that consideration 45 should be given to the establishment of an office at 46 Smithers. 47 Q Okay. Now, the bottom of that is where you talk about 23012 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 the: 2 3 "Increased fur prices this year probably 4 resulted in a slightly increased fur catch but 5 trapping remains unpopular with most of the 6 younger Indians." 7 8 Now, my understanding of your evidence is you did 9 not go out with any trappers while you were in Burns 10 Lake? 11 A Oh, no. I didn't have time for that. 12 Q No, I understand. I understand. I just want to be 13 sure what you did and didn't do. And you've already 14 described that you -- you agree with me that the 15 trapping season would go what, from October to March? 16 A To late October and -- 17 Q Into April? 18 A Maybe into April. I know of some beaver hunts that 19 went on as early as May. 2 0 Q Right. 21 A But — 22 Q Okay. In any event, that's about the time period? 23 A Right. 24 Q And did you travel out to Lake Babine during those 25 months while you were there? 26 A Yes. After the lake would freeze sufficient, you 27 know, for safe landing of an aircraft on the ice I 28 would go there. 29 Q Okay. Now, you mentioned yesterday that -- I'm 30 referring to Volume 303, page 22886. It's probably 31 easier for you if I read it in front of you. You were 32 asked by Mr. Macaulay: 33 34 "Q Did you speak to band members about record 35 keeping?" 36 37 And your answer was: 38 39 "A Yes, I did. 40 Q In connection with trapping? 41 A Yes, I did. 42 Q And what -- did you give them some advice 43 in that regard? 44 A I suggested that whenever they caught fur 45 that it might be to their long-term 46 advantage to -- to keep some records of 47 their fur catch, because I felt that one 23013 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 day those records might be useful to them. 2 Useful to them, for instance, in a, you 3 know, in a situation, you know, of a land 4 claims such as this. There were -- there 5 was very little by way of record keeping 6 being done to my -- in my opinion by the 7 Department of Indian Affairs or by the 8 Provincial Government or by anybody, and I 9 thought it would be -- it would be 10 advantageous to Indian people to at least 11 keep their own records such as fur sales 12 slips or anything else." 13 14 And this was a suggestion, from my understanding 15 of your evidence, that you made at this time. This 16 was in answer to questions relating to your April -- 17 April 1966 report. And this is around the time you 18 would have been making these suggestions to people? 19 A Golly, I've been making that suggestion to people for 20 a long time. When I started making that suggestion, 21 you know, I'm not too clear on, but I still make that 22 suggestion to them. And I've been doing so for years. 23 Q You were aware at this time in 1966 of the issues in 24 the minds of Indian people of their land and of land 25 claims? 26 A No. It wasn't -- it wasn't so much an issue of land 27 claims at that time, because there wasn't a great deal 28 of discussion that I ever overheard at that point in 29 time about land claims. I knew that there was -- that 30 there was an opinion within the Indian community of 31 British Columbia that they had not been fairly dealt 32 with in respect to land claims. My motivation behind 33 making that suggestion to Indian people was that I 34 was -- I was very much aware that they held traplines 35 and that some day there might be -- there might be 36 others within the Province who might -- who might envy 37 them their traplines, and it seemed to me at the time 38 that if Indian people could demonstrate use of their 39 traplines that would -- that would help them preserve 40 their entitlement to continue trapping their lines. 41 But in later years when the word land claims came into 42 more common usage, yeah, I added that to my 43 vocabulary, you know, when I talked to them. 44 Q Well, you remember you were working in the Indian 45 Affairs office at the time of John Chretien's White 46 Paper on Indian Policy in 1969. You remember that was 47 a crucial period in dealings of the department and 23014 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 Indian people? 2 A M'hm. 3 Q You would agree with that? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And would it not be fair to say that you were aware of 6 the issue of land claims at that time? 7 A Oh, yes. But -- but land claims was not a word that 8 we commonly used by the people of whom I was dealing 9 with. I was aware of the Nishga land claim, and that 10 there were other land claims probably on the horizon, 11 but I was only dealing with the Indians of the Burns 12 Lake area. 13 Q Right. I understand that, and I appreciate that the 14 people may not have used the term land claims, but you 15 were aware of the people in your clients being 16 concerned about talking about their land and their 17 traplines? 18 A Yes. 19 Q You are aware of that? 2 0 A M'hm. 21 Q People had -- when you suggested to them they 22 recorded -- 23 A They commonly called them their hunting grounds. 24 Q Right. That kind of language you heard at that time? 25 A Yes. M'hm. 26 Q You knew they were talking about places they had 27 traditionally used and were traditionally on? 28 A Yes. 29 Q You were familiar with all that? 30 A Oh, yes. 31 Q That was discussed in the time you were in Burns Lake? 32 A M'hm. Oh, yes. 33 Q Now, in terms of the resources, management of 34 resources here on this report that you have -- you 35 have it in front of you you talked about fur and 36 wildlife and you say: 37 38 "Most fur is caught in the immediate vicinity 39 of the reserve where the trapper can return 4 0 home each evening." 41 42 This is April of 1966. And I think this is in 43 your -- the end of your -- probably the end of your 44 first year there. Really it's in your first year. 45 You were there 1965-66; is that right? 4 6 A M'hm. 47 Q Where are you referring -- which reserves or which 23015 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 people are you talking about when you say in the 2 "immediate vicinity of the reserve"? Are you talking 3 about those closer to Burns Lake or those that are 4 further away? 5 A I was talking about the Indians who I perceived to be 6 trapping at the time, and they were, as I've said, 7 largely considered to me at the time to be the people 8 at Fort Babine and to a lesser extent around Topley 9 Landing. 10 Q Okay. On the top of the next page you state: 11 12 "Moose and deer in this area were in abundant 13 supply this winter and undoubtedly contributed 14 much to the supply of food and hides for 15 handicraft." 16 17 You would agree with me during your time at Burns 18 Lake Agency that moose and deer was an important food 19 stuff for the people, for the Indian people that you 20 were working with? 21 A Yes. Moose particularly for the Babine people. Moose 22 and deer, because there were more deer available in 23 the area south of Burns Lake, and the provincial 24 wildlife officials were -- were fairly generous with 25 the Indian people in allowing them permits to take 26 these animals out of the regular hunting season. 27 Q But they also were used -- the hides were used for 28 handicrafts? 29 A Yes, they were. 30 Q And this was one -- you encouraged the development of 31 a co-operative in Burns Lake relying on the 32 utilization of hides for the sale to sell handicrafts? 33 A Yes. 34 Q Sell moccasins and these kinds of crafted goods. I 35 take it that, of course, the utilization of hides for 36 handicrafts is something -- utilization of hides for 37 moccasins and for other items was something that was 38 in existence prior to you being there? 39 A Oh, yes. 40 Q And you just tried to help out to see -- in terms of 41 the co-operative to see if you can -- it could be used 42 as an economic base? 43 A The idea of the co-operative actually arose from the 44 then chief of the Lake Babine band who -- who -- who 45 felt that the ladies who produced these crafts within 46 her band might realize greater incomes by marketing 47 their own direct to the consumer rather than selling 23016 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 them in bulk to -- to -- to retailers. 2 Q M'hm. 3 A Or shipping them from other provinces or from 4 wherever, and so that initiative really arose more 5 with her than with myself. 6 Q Okay. It's something that you took on the role of 7 assisting in that initiative? 8 A Oh, yes. M'hm. 9 Q On the same page you talk about the Pendleton Bay 10 developments and the fact these people, the Babine 11 Lake people who lived near Pendleton Bay were going to 12 be forced out of their houses and forced into 13 relocation. So it appears that was stopped, that is 14 that the plans of the mill were postponed, but you 15 were on the verge of having to have a move of people 16 and relocate people from Lake Babine there? 17 A Yes. And I think that was behind the initiative that 18 was taken for the purchase of additional land from 19 Burns Lake IR18 which was subsequently added to IR 20 number 27. 21 Q I see. Okay. Can you go to page three. You talk 22 about winter employment. 23 24 "There were probably more job opportunities 25 locally during the past winter than there have 26 been in the past decade." 27 28 This is an example of what I was referring to here 2 9 where you're talking about employment. And then you 30 go on to say: 31 32 "Most men found employment in logging during 33 the winter." 34 35 A I'm sorry. Where do you see that? 36 Q The very top of page three. Winter Employment. Tab 37 2. I'm sorry. You may have misheard me. You see 38 that very top. 39 40 "There were probably more job opportunities 41 locally during the past winter than there have 42 been in the past decade. Most men found 43 employment in logging during the winter." 44 45 See that? 46 A Yes. 47 Q Here would it not be fair to say what you're talking 23017 R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 about is those people in the areas of Burns Lake, 2 those people in the areas of Pendleton Bay, those 3 areas where there was employment opportunites when 4 you're talking about locally? 5 A I would include -- I would include the area south of 6 Burns Lake, Grassy Plains, Cheslatta area. 7 Q Okay. But when you say locally here you're talking 8 more -- okay. You include that area, but you wouldn't 9 be talking about that northern area of Babine or -- 10 A No. There was ongoing logging activity at Fort Babine 11 or adjacent to Fort Babine every winter. I think that 12 was the same at the time I wrote this report. 13 Q And if you go down to page two of part two you see at 14 the bottom: 15 16 "We foresee an increase in industrial 17 activities in this area during the forthcoming 18 summer. There should be" -- 19 20 This is the report summary you follow? 21 A M'hm. 22 Q Do you have that, my lord? 23 A Yes. 24 Q 25 "There should be no shortage of employment 26 opportunities for the local Indian people." 27 28 Once again when you're referring to the local 29 Indian people those in the vicinity of Burns Lake as 30 now we've defined including the Cheslatta and 31 Pendleton Bay area? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Okay. Now, up above you make the comment in the -- on 34 the same page that: 35 36 "No person who is sympathetic towards the 37 Indian can live very long in Burns Lake without 38 becoming aware of a basically unhealthy 39 attitude towards the Indian by the outside 40 community. He is considered to be a doubtful 41 individual in just about every way. This is 42 the attitude that we must seek to change. The 43 approach that must be taken the non-Indian will 44 involve much in the way of time and ideas. 45 Non-Indians are impressed by success stories 46 but sometimes there are failures. We must have 47 more success stories to overbalance any theorty 2301? R.M. Mclntyre (for Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 that the Indian is a failure as a human being." That was a fair statement of your view and observation of the attitude towards the Indian people by non-Indian people in your agency at that time? A Yes. Yes. Q Now -- THE COURT: Should we take the afternoon adjournment, Mr. Grant? MR. GRANT: Certainly, my lord. THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned for a short recess. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein to the best of my skill and ability. Peri McHale, Official Reporter UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 23019 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS) 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT: (Continued) 4 5 MR. GRANT: 6 Q I was at tab 3, page one, the heading Community 7 Organization. The last paragraph under Community 8 Organization you refer to the -- you have referred to 9 the amendment of the Municipal Act and the creation of 10 regional district: "Since a regional district will 11 evidently have potential jurisdiction or perhaps 12 strong presence --"? 13 A I am sorry, I have lost you. 14 Q Are you at tab 3? 15 A Tab 3, page 2 under Community Organization the 16 regional district -- 17 Q "Since a regional district will evidently have 18 potential jurisdiction or perhaps strong influence..." 19 A Yes, I follow you now. 20 Q Mr. Macaulay suggests influence, "...over every aspect 21 of rural and municipal development, it seems that the 22 branch and the Indian people should be concerned with 23 this authority." 24 Okay. This is part of your report? 25 A Yes. 26 Q Now, why did you feel that the Indian people should be 27 concerned with the authority of a regional district, 28 the creation of regional districts, I should say, 29 that's the language, why did you express this concern? 30 What was it? 31 A I guess I must have had an apprehension at the time, 32 because regional districts at that point in time were 33 going to be a new -- were going to be or had become a 34 new type of or a new level of government, and the 35 contact that I had had up to that point in time with 36 regional district people or with the concept of 37 regional districts, probably left me apprehensive in 38 some ways as to what these might become and what their 39 impact might eventually prove to be vis-a-vis the 40 Indian people. 41 Q Now, on page -- tab 5, page one, you talk in -- under 42 management and development of reserves -- of 43 resources, I should say, you refer to the initiative 44 of leasing, and you say: 45 46 "In an endeavour to increase the revenue to band 47 revenue accounts, advertising of reserve lands 23020 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 for lease was undertaken during the last 2 period." 3 4 This is sort of in the April to October, 1967 5 period; is that right? 6 A Yes. 7 MR. GRANT: 8 9 "This involved making up plywood signs and 10 locating these signs on reserve areas 11 considered valuable for recreational purposes." 12 13 Now, this is the kind of thing you were looking at 14 with respect to the Felix George Reserve, wasn't it? 15 A Yes, and also with respect to at least one other 16 reserve that I can recall up near Fort Babine. 17 Q Do you recall what that reserve is called? 18 A Casdeded I.R. No. 8. 19 Q 20 21 "The Omineca band and this agency, a band with 22 very limited revenue, was given preference on 23 this project." 24 25 Now, if I can take a look and show you my friend's 26 aide memoire, the Felix George Reserve No. 7 would 27 have been one of the reserves of the Omineca band at 28 that time? 29 A Yes, and that was the reserve that I referred to 30 there. 31 Q That's the reserve? 32 A Yes. 33 Q What about Maxan Lake No. 3, Maxan Creek No. 5, Maxan 34 Lake No. 4, were those reserves that you were 35 considering at that time? 36 A No, not at all. In fact I have never had any reason 37 to go to Maxan Lake Reserve. Access to them is or was 38 very difficult at the time and I have never been there 39 nor have I had any reason to go there. 40 Q Would that equally apply to Foxy Creek, this group of 41 five reserves here? 42 A Yes. 43 Q I don't know if you have that, my lord, it's Maxan 44 Lake No. 3 and 4 and Maxan Creek No. 5 and Foxy Creek 45 No. 6. They are all right in the same area on the 4 6 map. 47 So -- but those are reserves of the Omineca band? 23021 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes. 2 Q And they were at that time, you understand what I 3 mean? 4 A Yes. 5 Q They are now under the Broman Lake band? 6 A Yes. 7 Q So the principal reserve you were referring to in this 8 reference is Felix George Reserve? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q Do you know why Felix George Reserve was called Felix 11 George Reserve? 12 A I believe it was named after Felix George. 13 Q Okay. You didn't know him? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you know that he was Wet'suwet'en? 16 A No. 17 Q Now, under this section, management and development of 18 resources, you were dealing with, and as you explained 19 earlier, you were dealing with the resources on 20 reserve? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And this paragraph you talk about -- in fact you 23 suggest that there was a positive response shown 24 particularly on one reserve and that was the Felix 25 George Reserve? 26 A Yes. 2 7 Q And 28 29 "An increase in revenue of 100 percent if and 30 when these lease applications are approved will 31 substantially encourage the council of this 32 band to make greater use of their reserve 33 resources as well as giving them valuable 34 experience in the management of band funds." 35 36 That was your comment then and that was your view 37 as to your motivation to encourage this kind of 38 development? 39 A Yes. 40 Q Now, you agree with me that the Felix George Reserve 41 was not of course created initially for this purpose 42 but it was -- it was -- firstly, that wasn't the -- 43 why they had the reserve initially? 44 A Oh, no, I believe that it was at one time a home site 45 of an Indian person or persons and their families. 46 Q But if I may say, the dilemma you had to face is that 47 you were trying to encourage, with this respect, 23022 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 9 10 A 11 12 13 Q 14 A 15 16 THE COURT 17 A 18 MR. GRANT 19 Q 20 21 22 23 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 29 A 30 31 32 33 34 35 Q 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 43 44 45 A 46 THE COURT 47 MR. GRANT economic development for bands, that's -- you agree? Yes. And yet you had, in that encouragement, you had a very tiny resource base to do it with? Yes. And so, of course, one of your options, one of the few options was this kind of initiative where you could encourage the band to use their resource by leasing it? Yes. They had, in fact, at the time of my arrival at Burns Lake, a number of lakeshore lots had in fact been leased. On Felix George or other ones? On Felix George Reserve. That was the situation when I got there. : That's on Owen Lake? On Owen Lake, right. : Yes. And then you refer on page 2 of the same report for -- the Corporation of the Village of Burns Lake actually applied for a lease of a residence house on Burns Lake I.R. No. 18 and that's — that I.R. No. 18 is the Burns Lake band reserve that's located very close to the village of Burns Lake? Within the Village of Burns Lake, right. So this was another example where the band, you saw that the band could get some revenue from its limited resource base by leasing some of the reserve land? Yes, the initiative in that leasing though came from the Village of Burns Lake as opposed to anything that I or the band, you know, instigated. The Village of Burns Lake, in other words, needed a place upon which to locate a residence for their works manager, as I recall. Of course the Village of Burns Lake had lands off the reserve? Yes. I don't see the sequence of this, did this one go through, as far as you recall? Yes, it did. Now, I daresay, Mr. Mclntyre, not only were you aware of the limited resource base but in fact from your report, at page five, part -- I am sorry, tab 5, part two, which in fact is page five -- Tab 5, part two, page five? : Page five of part two? No. : Tab 5, the fifth page in, it's not numbered, my 23023 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant lord, it just says part two at the top. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. GRANT: Q I expect that management and development of resources, here you say that, "I expect that agency staff will be busy during the next few months in processing additional applications for reserve leases. Almost all the areas we expect to be applied for are not presently being used by Indian people, consequently we look upon these applications very favourably. The increased revenues that will result from these agreements will be of considerable value to the respective bands. Most of the reserves of this agency are small in acreage and the majority are presently unused by the Indian people. In many cases the reserve will have to be surrendered for leasing and although this will involve considerable work for agency staff we consider the time worthwhile nevertheless." In this context what you were trying to do was to expand the income from the limited resource base and you also, as you have described, you were trying to expand some of the reserves with respect to Pendleton Bay, in fact one of the options that you suggested in your earlier report was to acquire provincial land for the band members that were at Pendleton Bay, do you recall that? A I don't recall that but that -- Q That was one of the options you looked at? A Quite possibly, yes, I am sure I did. Q When you look at the summary on tab 5, you say: "Agency staff have responded well to the increased responsibilities..." I am sorry, my lord, it's tab 5, page 2, the last page of the tab. THE COURT: Yes. MR. GRANT: "Agency staff have responded well to the increased responsibilities within the agency caused by an increased 1967-68 programme 23024 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 workload and my own absence from the agency 2 during the period while I have been away on 3 training courses, conferences and leaves. We 4 will continue to improve our administration in 5 the largest area of expenditure in this agency, 6 welfare of Indians, and the economic outlook 7 for the coming winter is generally the same as 8 it was during 1966-67." 9 10 11 Would it be fair to say that you endeavoured in 12 your reports to your superiors to maintain an 13 optimistic outlook for the benefits that you saw 14 coming to the -- the improvements that you saw 15 happening in your agency? Overall you presented an 16 optimistic outlook, and I say that not to be unfair to 17 you, or to be critical, Mr. Mclntyre, I say it because 18 I read your reports, and having read them all as a 19 body, that's how it appeared to me, that you are a 20 person of some level of optimism and you saw that you 21 could improve things or assist the bands to improve 22 things and you presented that feeling, that was 23 generally your feeling as things went on? 24 A Yes, but I didn't -- if my reports came out optimistic 25 it wasn't because I felt that I had to provide my 26 superiors with an optimistic report. Rather, I felt 27 that I should report to them the facts as I saw them 28 and if it happened to be optimistic, so be it. If, on 29 the other hand, there was -- and there could have been 30 a later time or earlier time when I was reporting when 31 perhaps my reports would not have had that 32 optimistic -- that optimistic flavour. And I have -- 33 Q Wouldn't it be fair to say that when you left Burns 34 Lake you felt that the agency -- I know the agency 35 became amalgamated -- but the bands were in a better 36 situation than when you arrived? 37 A I would like to think so, yes. 38 THE COURT: Mr. Mclntyre, what did you mean in that passage 39 which was just read, where you say that "the largest 40 area of expenditure in this agency, welfare and 41 Indians", in what sense were you using that word? For 42 example, were these Indians in receipt of provincial 43 welfare? 44 A No, the provincial government, at that point in time, 45 did not bear the expense of welfare in the pure sense 46 of the word, to Indian people. Social assistance 47 payments were funded from the federal treasury rather 23025 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 2 THE COURT 3 A 4 5 6 7 THE COURT 8 A 9 10 11 THE COURT 12 13 14 A 15 16 THE COURT 17 18 A 19 MR. GRANT 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 THE COURT 25 26 27 A 28 29 THE COURT 30 MR. GRANT 31 32 THE COURT 33 34 MR. GRANT 35 36 37 THE COURT 38 39 A 40 41 42 43 44 45 THE COURT 46 MR. GRANT 47 Q than the provincial treasury. : So that meant all federally-funded? Yes, I think I was -- I don't recall why I tailored my words in that manner and fashion. I think I was -- I may have been dealing or using the word welfare in a very broad context rather than -- : So that would include -- Rather than only in the sense of social assistance payments or housing improvement subsidies or the like of that. : I am wondering if it's intended to refer to a monthly payment or is it referred to monies required for the well-being of Indians generally, or both? The government appropriations for the well-being of Indians generally, I would think. : Which included a monthly stipend for those who needed it? Yes. But here you were also dealing with the things such as the housing, capital housing, and other projects for the band members? Yes. : What about things like hospital insurance, medical coverage and that sort of thing, is that all federally-funded? My recollection is that the Canada Department of National Health and Welfare covered off those areas. : All right. Thank you. : That's a situation that has not been standardized throughout, my lord. : I understand that. And the province is now paying it, is it not? : It's not, to my recollection, although it's an area of dispute. It's an on-reserve/off-reserve issue now under regulations. : But most of these Indians were off reserve or on reserve in your agency? All the people that I dealt with were, for the most part, they were on the reserve, except that group which were kind of in transition, namely, the group at Pendleton Bay, who were shortly to relocate out of Pendleton Bay when the mills were going to close there. : All right. Thank you. And, of course, the Cheslatta group would have just 23026 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 A 4 5 6 7 8 9 THE COURT 10 A 11 THE COURT 12 13 A 14 15 16 17 THE COURT 18 MR. GRANT 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 28 29 Q 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 38 39 40 A 41 Q 42 43 44 45 46 A 47 come on reserve just shortly before your time because the transfer of that land was in 1964? My belief is that the Cheslatta people were considered by our department to have never have been off reserve, although in the pure legal sense I suppose there was a period of time when those lands were probably under some interim kind of category, such as, oh, public lands of Canada or something of that nature. : Weren't they moved in the '50s? Yes. : So that the transfer of land was in '64, as Mr. Grant said, was just a housekeeping detail, wasn't it? Yes, it was an incredibly long period of time after the actual relocation of these people on to these purchased lands before the purchased lands obtained the status of reserves. : All right. Thank you. Can you go to tab 7 or tab 6, I am so on that first page is Irene Andrew, a asked you about Irene Andrew, and you Very vaguely, yes. Did you know a woman by the name of I I think they are one and the same per And did you know Irene Andrew's fathe No, I don't recall him. I am not eve was alive during my time there. I ju him at all. Now, you knew -- did you know that Ir related to people at Moricetown? No, I did not know that. You knew Sophie Ogen? Yes. Did you know she was related to peopl No. In this report, these minutes that I taken by your staff, you said, it's s Mclntyre..." and that's yourself, tha were the one that was at the meeting Yes. "...explained to the meeting that the elect their band council according to the band." What did you mean "according to th band"? Well, very simply that, the custom of rules of the conduct of the election, rry. Number four nd Mr. Macaulay knew her? rene Daum? son, I believe, r, Jimmy Andrew? n sure that he st don't recall ene Andrew was e at Hagwilget? understand were tated: "Mr. t reference, you here? Omineca band the custom of e custom of the the bands, the who could be 23027 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 THE COURT 17 18 MR. GRANT 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 THE COURT 27 28 29 MR. GRANT 30 Q 31 32 33 34 35 A 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 44 45 46 47 A nominated, how -- the whole gamut of procedures surrounding the selection of band council was purely at the discretion of the band, however they wanted to do it. And since it appeared that I was expected to participate in this process somehow, I was moved to raise this issue with the band council, with the view that I could have some understanding of the rules that they chose to follow so that I wouldn't run afoul of them some way or another during my involvement. There is two methods under the Indian Act for elections to occur; is that right? I believe so, yes. At this time? Yes. And one was a procedure under the Indian Act -- : How is this going to help us in resolving this case, how they elect their band council? : Well, my lord, with respect, this document which I had originally objected to and my friends strenuously argued should go in because it related to the conduct of these people, now we are talking about elections according to the customs of the bands. To the extent that applies to the plaintiffs, that's what I am canvassing. That's exactly what my friend raised this document for. : I thought this document was in for quite a different purpose, but if you think it's going to be helpful, by all means, go ahead. In any event, at that time under the Indian Act procedure, and at this time there was a procedure whereby elections could take place under the formal procedure of the Indian Act which has election regulations, is that right? Yes, that's right. And another provision allows for the selection of chiefs and council under the customs of the band? Yes. And not necessarily election, but selection? Selection, yes. You would agree with that. And at this time, what this comment is, does that reflect that up to at least this meeting of August, 1967, the Omineca band was one which the Indian Act or the agency office had recorded as they were choosing their chiefs and councillors through custom rather than through election? Yes, this band was then and indeed for the duration of 2302? R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 my time in Burns Lake, this is one of the bands that 2 chose to select its chief and councillors in 3 accordance with their own custom, whatever that 4 happened to be. 5 Q But, in fact, when the seven points were dealt with, 6 the procedure closely parallels, and that's set out in 7 this document, ended up closely paralleling the 8 election procedure? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And did you explain to the councillors, or to the 11 people at this meeting, how the ordinary election 12 procedure was? Was that part of your explanation to 13 them? 14 A Possibly. Those were the points that I felt I ought 15 to know in assisting them with this selection process 16 and these were the points that I wanted to be of 17 record as a guide to myself and/or my staff, in our 18 conduct during this process. 19 Q Now, if you -- I am just showing you a letter from Mr. 20 Wight, W-I-G-H-T, to Mr. Carty, the secretary- 21 treasurer of the Canadian Trappers Association, and 22 this came out of the traplines general file which 23 included some documents to which you made reference to 24 and it has your initial, it appears to be, on the 25 bottom of the first page. Is this a letter which you 26 received around that time? 27 A I must have received it, that is my initials on the 28 bottom of it. 29 Q Which would indicate you received it? 30 A Yes. 31 Q And Mr. Wight was the regional director, that would 32 have been the regional -- he was the senior officer of 33 the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs for the 34 B. C. region at the time of this letter? 35 A That's right. 36 Q And this letter would have gone to you at this time 37 because you were, amongst other things, in charge in 38 the Prince George office for trapline matters? 39 A Yes. 40 Q And Mr. Carty, of course, from the Canadian Trappers 41 Association, was based in Prince George and him 42 writing to the director, you probably had at least 43 some knowledge of the correspondence back and forth? 44 A Yes. 45 Q And I would just refer you to the third paragraph 46 where Mr. Wight, the regional director, states: 47 23029 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 "Certainly there is a period during this 2 change..." 3 4 After referring to the change of the Indian trapper 5 and his family, 6 7 "...when consolidation takes place and a sense 8 of security prevails. It is then that you 9 suggest can be taken but not without 10 consultation with the Indian people and the 11 responsible provincial authority. While close, 12 I believe they will not be ready until the land 13 question with attendant aboriginal rights is 14 recognized. The sale you mentioned by Indians 15 of their traplines in northern B. C. was not 16 agreed upon by this department...". 17 18 Then he talks about a particular sale. 19 You were aware at least as early as 1974 of the 20 question of the land question and attendant aboriginal 21 rights that I referred you to earlier? 22 A Yes. 23 MR. GRANT: I would ask that that be marked as the next exhibit. 24 THE COURT: Next number is —? 25 THE REGISTRAR: 1233, my lord: 26 27 (EXHIBIT 1233: LETTER DATED JUNE 17, 1974 REGIONAL 2 8 DIRECTOR INDIAN AFFAIRS TO CARTY) 29 3 0 MR. GRANT: 31 Q Now, yesterday you commenced giving evidence and were 32 asked questions about wills, and my recollection is, 33 Mr. Mclntyre, that you advised Indian persons who 34 sought advice, to make wills, that was part of what 35 your job was in the agency office? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And your subordinates, in certain situations? 38 A Yes. 39 Q And, if I recall correctly, my note from yesterday was 40 that "whenever we were aware", that is the agency 41 staff, "...of people having assets of substance, we 42 would encourage them to make wills." 43 That's a fair statement? 44 A Yes. 45 Q Did you ever advise people who came to you about 46 making a will that the making of the will could or 47 would possibly jeopardize their rights? 23030 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 A No. 2 Q Did you ever perceive that that was a possibility at 3 the time you advised them? 4 A No, and I don't perceive it now, really. 5 Q When you said that you advised "when we were aware of 6 people having assets of substance, we would encourage 7 them to make wills", were you considering at that time 8 such assets as their chiefly names? 9 A No, because I wasn't aware of their chiefly names. 10 Q Regalia, traditional regalia? 11 A I wasn't aware of their possession of this by any of 12 the people who I dealt with. 13 Q Crest property? 14 A No. 15 Q As you described earlier, about the feasting and the 16 funerals and even this custom election that you 17 referred to, would it be fair to say that you saw 18 their traditional property being dealt with by the 19 Carrier people you were working with, in their own 20 way, and that wasn't part of what you were dealing 21 with in the wills? 22 A I didn't see a great deal of evidence of that. 23 Q Of? 24 A Of dealing with their -- of dealing with their 25 property in a manner that I perceived necessarily to 26 follow their own customs. The property of which I was 27 concerned with, in the encouragement of will 28 preparation, was the kind of property like automobiles 29 and bank accounts and other substantial physical 30 items. I -- 31 Q A house on a reserve, for example? 32 A Well, to the extent that it was on land allocated to 33 them. That was not a very common situation in the 34 Burns Lake Agency, but it was elsewhere, I understand. 35 I didn't feel it to be my prerogative as the 36 government person, to venture at all into things of a 37 cultural or traditional nature. That was really, you 38 know, an area that I felt it wise to stay out of, and 39 if there were to be transactions in that regard, they 40 were not to concern me. 41 Q Now, if you look at tab 8, and I think you said this 42 was a will that was not done in your office, and I 43 think the basis upon that is that it's -- I am sorry, 44 I said tab 8, tab 7, I should say. I am sorry. I 45 don't have the tabs on both sides. This is the Mathew 46 Sam will, this is a will that you recall because of 47 the form of it, you assumed it was not done in your 23031 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 office, I think that's a fair way of saying that? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Now, you have no knowledge of the circumstances 4 surrounding the writing of this will by Mr. Sam? 5 A No. 6 Q And you have no knowledge of what -- of whether or not 7 it was his intention to include his trapline in this 8 transfer, you don't know that from reading this and 9 that's all you can do is the same as I can do or the 10 judge can do? 11 A Well, the will says that he "gives, devises and 12 bequeaths all my property of every nature and kind 13 whatsoever", and I think I interpreted that to include 14 the trapline. 15 Q Well, you did, you did. And I don't take issue with 16 that, because a subsequent document shows you 17 interpret it that way, but that's the point I wanted 18 to come to, you had this will in front of you and you 19 had to interpret what he meant and you did interpret 20 it to mean a registered trapline? 21 A Yes. 22 Q You were unable to determine from, of course, what's 23 written here, unlike some of the other wills, whether 24 Mr. Sam included his trapline in that, you just 25 couldn't say, right? 26 A No, I couldn't say, I guess. 27 Q For example -- but here is an example where I just 28 want it clear up how you worked this process out, from 29 what you have said you weren't advised of Mr. Sam's 30 chiefly name, you didn't know? 31 A I have no idea what that may have been. 32 Q But from what you ever told me even if you had been 33 advised that he had a chiefly name, you would not have 34 included that within the administration? 35 A No. 36 Q If he had regalia that went with that chiefly name, 37 you would not have included that in the 38 administration? 39 A No. 40 Q If he, under Wet'suwet'en rules, had a right to 41 utilize a certain piece of land that went with that 42 chiefly name, you would not have included that with 43 the administration? 44 A I don't think so, no. 45 Q Okay. But what you did when you go to tab 9, is you 46 included, under other assets on page 3, the provincial 47 government trapline and gave a latitude and longitude. 23032 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 And that was your interpretation of what he meant to 2 be included? 3 A Yes. I don't see that under tab 9 but I am sure it's 4 there. 5 Q I am sorry, I am missing a tab. Tab 8, I should say. 6 I am sorry, Mr. Mclntyre. Tab 8, page 3? 7 A Right. 8 Q You knew Christine Holland subsequent to these events, 9 you got to know her better from what I recall of your 10 evidence? 11 A Yes. 12 Q You know that Christine Holland was a Wet'suwet'en 13 person? 14 A I knew her to be a member of the Omineca band, not 15 ordinarily living on an Omineca band reserve, and -- 16 Q Do you recall where she lived? 17 A I understood her to live at the time at Houston and 18 when I subsequently became acquainted with her -- I am 19 sorry, Telkwa, and when I subsequently became 20 acquainted with her that is where I became -- that is 21 where I met her. 22 Q My reading of the whole correspondence, the body of 23 correspondence relating to Mathew Sam's estate and the 24 trapline, Christine Holland and Sophie Ogen and Roy 25 Morris's correspondence, this body that Mr. Macaulay 26 has put together for us all, that you -- you 27 interpreted the dispute as a dispute between the 28 Omineca band wanting control over the trapline as 29 opposed to Roy Morris, who was at that time not a 30 member of the Omineca band wanting control of the 31 trapline? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Is that a fair summary of your understanding of the 34 dispute? 35 A Hm-hmm, because the complaint that I was hearing from 36 the Omineca band was at odds with the way -- with the 37 transfer of that trapline to Roy Morris. 38 Q Right. Because on tab 10 -- tab 10, Sophie Ogen: 39 40 "Please arrange to send us information about 41 late Matthew Sam trapline. This trapline was 42 transferred to Roy Morris of Morricetown, B.C. 43 my Mrs. Amelia Sam without Chief and 44 Councillors authorization and Mrs. Christine 45 Holland our member she is protesting. 46 Also we like to keep this trapline within 47 our band member." 23033 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A THE COURT MR. GRANT So that was your understanding is that it was band versus a non-band member dispute that was going on here? Yes. And you were unaware of the relationship, the crest relationship, that is the crest of Mathew Sam, Roy Morris and Christine Holland, you had no idea of what that was? That is correct. If at that time it had been brought to your attention that this was a crest dispute, that is what crest should it -- who was in line for Mathew Sam and this was part of the crest property, I take it that you would have at least taken that into account in how you dealt with it? Possibly I would have. Going to tab 11, I think you make clear what you understood the situation to be then, in that second last sentence on the first paragraph: "So far as we are concerned the estate assets include the trapline." That was the interpretation and conclusion you had already arrived at and then -- that's correct, right? Yes. Then you say: "Mathew's trapline is an Indian trapline since Roy Morris is a registered Indian there is nothing to prevent his possession of the line." And there what you are referring to is the restriction that Mr. Cox of fish and wildlife, a restriction that you generally agreed with in some respect that Indian traplines should go to other Indian people? As opposed to non-native people, yes. Of course how it was defined at that time when you mean Indian it would be status Indian people you would be looking at? Yes, yes. : You're not going to finish, are you, Mr. Grant? : In one minute, no, I don't think I will finish. But, my lord, I -- I am certainly not concerned about our scheduling for this week. I am not going to be much longer, from what Mr. Macaulay has told me he has 23034 R.M. Mclntyre (For Canada) Cross-exam by Mr. Grant 1 outstanding. 2 THE COURT: All right. We will adjourn then until 10 o'clock 3 tomorrow morning. 4 5 (Proceedings adjourned to Wednesday, November 29, 1989 6 at 10 o'clock a.m.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 14 a true and accurate transcript of the 15 proceedings herein to the best of my 16 skill and ability. 17 18 19 20 21 22 Wilf Roy 23 Official Reporter 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47
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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts
[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-11-28] British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 28, 1989
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Title | [Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-11-28] |
Creator |
British Columbia. Supreme Court |
Publisher | Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd. |
Date Created | 1989-11-28 |
Description | In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, between: Delgamuukw, also known as Albert Tait, suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all the members of the House of Delgamuukw, and others, plaintiffs, and Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of British Columbia and the Attorney General of Canada, defendants: proceedings at trial. |
Extent | pages 22950-23034 : digital, DOC file |
Subject |
Trial transcripts--British Columbia. |
Person Or Corporation | Uukw, Delgam, 1937- |
Genre |
Trial proceedings |
Type |
Text |
FileFormat | application/pdf |
Language | English |
Identifier | KEB529.5.L3 B757 SCBC_304 |
Collection |
Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts |
Source | Original Format: University of British Columbia. Library. Law Library. |
Date Available | 2013 |
Provider | Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library |
Rights | Images provided for research and reference use only. For permission to publish, copy, or otherwise distribute these images, please contact the Courts of British Columbia: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/ |
DOI | 10.14288/1.0018490 |
AggregatedSourceRepository | CONTENTdm |
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