Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Irene Daum British Columbia. Supreme Court Dec 1, 1988

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 <3ln tiit £»\iprtmz Court of Jjlrtttslf Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  Smithers, B. C.  December 1, 1988  BETWEEN:  AND:  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  IRENE DAUM wnnnruii> pranrf im    wn     1/wn U/CCT\BT.\k CTPCrr VAMm WCB  BT VKF il-U IKTU\ AM.1IVWI <3fn tiit £&ixprtmt Court of J^rttisI] Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  Smithers, B. C.  December 1, 1988  BETWEEN  AND:  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  IRENE DAUM  M. ADAMS, Esq.  MS. L. RUSSELL  D. O'BYRNE, Esq  Appearing for the Plaintiffs  Appearing for the Defendant  The Attorney-General for Canada  Appearing for the Defendant  Her Majesty the Queen in Right  of the Province of British  Columbia  wnnoTmr rca«(«r irn   «n    mvi utcct RCDQCti CTnCCT U&kirftn/EB BP UKF iMA (fUUt KAQ-irWA 1  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  SMITHERS, B.C.  2  3  4  December 1, 1988  IRENE DAUM, a witness herein called on  5  behalf of the Plaintiffs, having been  6  7  8  duly sowrn, testifies as follows:  MS.  RUSSELL:  Mrs. Daum, I'm just going to introduce myself once  9  more so it's on the transcript, I've already  10  introduced myself.  My name is Loryl Russell, and I'm  11  agent for the Attorney General of Canada.  12  MR.  O'BYRNE:  My name is Daryl 0'Byrne, and I'm agent for the  13  Province of British Columbia in this matter.  14  MR.  ADAMS  :  My name is Murray Adams, and I'm one of the counsels  15  for the Plaintiffs, and Victor Jim is here to provide  16  17  18  spelling of Wet'suwet'en words.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. RUSSELL:  19  Q  Mrs. Daum, if I ask you a question that you don't  20  understand please tell me and 1*11 ask it again, or if  21  I go too quickly please ask me to stop and I'll ask  22  again.  23  A  Sometimes my hearing is bad.  24  Q  I'll speak carefully then.  I'm going to start by  25  asking you some questions about your family.  26  A  Um-hum.  27  Q  When were you born, Mrs. Daum?  28  A  1934.  29  Q  And can you tell me who your parents are — your  30  parents were?  31  A  My dad is Jimmy Andrew.  32  Q  And your mom?  33  A  Julia.  34  Q  Julia Morris?  35  A  Yeah, Julia Morris.  36  Q  Was she Ian Morris' sister?  37  A  Yes.  38  Q  And what house was your mother in?  39  A  Frog clan, Gilseyhu.  40  Q  And do you know what house of that clan she was in?  41  A  It's called Gilseyhu clan.  42  Q  And your father's clan?  43  A  Laksamshu.  44  MS.  RUSSELL:  Do you know what house and clan your grandparents  45  were in?  46  MR.  ADAMS  :  Which side?  47  MS.  RUSSELL: z  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  I'm sorry, okay, your mother's side, Julia's parents?  What clan?  What clan your grandmother — your mother's parents  were in, clans?  My mother's mother was in Gilseyhu clan.  And your mother's father?  That I don't recall, because they were long dead  before I was born.  Can you tell me the names of your mother's parents?  My mother's father was Margaret Augusta.  Margaret?  Yeah.  Augusta.  And what was her last name?  Augusta is her last name.  Oh, I'm sorry, Margaret Augusta. And your mother's  father?  My mother's father was the — I can't recall his  father's name.  The eldest called them by their last  name, Old Morris.  Old Morris?  Yeah.  I can't recall his first name.  That's fine.  So it was Old Morris, M-o-r-r-i-s.  Yeah.  And your father's parents; do you remember their  names?  My mother's — my father's mom's name was Anne — no,  I'm sorry, Betsy Andrew, and I do not know her maiden  name.  That's fine.  And your father's father?  Billy.  Billy Andrew?  Yes.  Do you know what clan your mother's — rather your  father's mother was in?  Laksamshu.  And you have some children, don't you, Mrs. Daum?  Yes.  How many children do you have?  Four girls.  Where do your daughters live?  Three are living in Vancouver and one is living in  Noralee, west end of Francois Lake.  And your three daughters who live in Vancouver, what  do they do for a living?  Two are going to university and the youngest one is  looking for a job.  Has she had some training, she's looking for a job? I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 A Um-hum.  2 Q She's looking for a job in the area of — what's her  3 training?  4 A She's trained as a business administration.  5 Q And the daughter at Noralee, is she working or is she  6 at home?  7 A She's married.  8 Q Living at home?  9 A Yeah.  Living at home.  10 Q And did you go to school, Mrs. Daum?  11 A Very little.  12 Q Where did you go?  13 A When we moved from Whistle Lake to Noralee in the year  14 '50 and '51, went to a little school, a very small  15 students, went to school for two years.  16 Q And did you learn to read English at that time?  17 A Yes.  18 Q And do you read and write English now?  19 A Yeah.  20 Q Okay.  And your father was Jimmy Andrew, wasn't he?  21 A Yes.  22 Q What did he do to support your family?  23 A He was trapping.  24 Q And did he hunt as well to support the family?  25 A Yeah, hunting and fishing, and in the summertime he  26 went guiding tours.  27 MS. RUSSELL:  Did he have employment other than hunting,  28 trapping and guiding, as you've described?  29 MR. ADAMS:  And fishing.  30 A Yes.  31 MS. RUSSELL:  3 2 Q Sorry.  Did he have employment too?  33 A Pardon me?  I didn't quite —  34 Q Did he have a job other than hunting, trapping,  35 fishing, and guiding?  36 A Well, yeah, well guiding was his — was his job in the  37 summertime.  38 Q And did he work for someone else when he did this  39 guiding?  40 A Yeah.  This guiding was his job, he was working for  41 another guiding outfit, yeah.  He was there as a hired  42 hand.  43 Q Did your father have a chief's name?  44 A He did have a chief's name, but his Smogelgem, he  45 was — that was taken away from him because they have  46 to live in a village and attend all the potlatches in  47 order to keep the chief name, so he was not living in 4  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  a village.  I'm sorry.  I don't think we got your father's name  that he had and that it was taken away. What was his  name again?  Smogelgem.  He was Smogelgem?  Yeah.  He lived off the reserve then, didn't he?  Yes.  So your father was Smogelgem and he had the name taken  away because he couldn't attend the feasts?  Yes.  And he couldn't attend the feasts because he didn't  live on the reserve, did he?  No.  Out there where we moved was really hard to get  in and out, and once he moved all these stuff out  there he's — he was gone a lot from home.  Urn-hum?  And staying out and trap where he's trapping, and  get — didn't get to town very often.  He owned some land, didn't he, he owned it in his own  name; do you recall that?  What it was was just a homestead, just he just had a  milk car and his horses were travel, he used them for  transportation.  But he didn't live on the reserve, he lived on his own  piece of land?  Yeah.  Can you tell me whose territory that land that he  lived on was in?  The territory that — the name of the territory?  Yes.  Our own language the name is Tl'oo Tseet.  Can you tel me the meaning of that in English?  Andrews Bay.  So he lived on the Andrews Bay territory then?  Yeah.  And that's the area you described in your affidavit,  isn't it?  Yes.  When your father got the name Smogelgem was he given  it at a feast?  Yes.  That's — well, that was the only way they get  the name.  Do you know who passed the name to him?  No.  I don't know, I guess that all happened before.  Pardon me? 5  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  I think that all happened before we were born.  Do you know if your father made a contribution at the  feast where he got the name?  Yes.  Do you know how much of a contribution he made?  No, I don't recall, because they get that one —  whoever had the name that dies, and then I guess he  must have got that when he was — I don't know what  age he would be, but that all was before we were born.  Did he tell you about the feast where he took the name  Smogelgem?  Yeah.  My mother and him — and him usually tell us  about it.  Did your mother and father tell you stories about  their houses and their clans?  Yes.  What are those stories called, can you tell me?  The history of the two clans that — one clan history  of my father's clan and one the history of my mother's  clan.  What did your mother tell you about the history of her  clan, can you tell me some of the stories, just very  quickly?  They explain to us how — what the name is, the chief  name is all about, and how — they tell us how they  have come to spend — buy a lot of groceries and  clothing or a lot of things that are useful and some  things like guns and all sorts of things.  They told you about the gifts that they gave at the  feast?  Yeah.  The gifts and the food.  Did they tell you any stories about the history of the  clan itself?  Well, yes, they did.  Can you tell me what they told — what your mother  told you about the history of the clan, Gilseyhu, can  you give me some idea of what she told you about?  It has something to do with the name of the clan and  the chief's name usually has something to do with like  my mother is in frog.  Um-hum?  Her clan was in frog, and the name that they get is —  it had somehow had something to do with — I can't  recall really the meaning of it.  Who is the head chief of the Gilseyhu?  In our — in my mother's was the name — like she  didn't carry the name, my aunts did, but Amelia Sam, o  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 and her name was Luud Duhs.  2 Q  Luud Duhs?  3 A  Luud Duhs.  4 Q  Luud Duhs?  5 A  Yeah.  6 MS. RUSSELL:  Can we get a spelling?  7 THE TRANSLATOR:  L-U-U-D, new word, D-U-H-S.  8 MS. RUSSELL:  9 Q  And was Luud Duhs a high chief's name?  10 A  Oh, yes.  11 Q  And was it the head chief's name of the clan,  12 Gilseyhu?  13 A  That I don't really know.  It must be because like we  14 were not really into it ourselves, but as far as I  15 know one that has a name, they have a special seat for  16 them when they come in the potlatch or house, and they  17 get the most gifts and food and all that, all those  18 that carry the name of the clan.  19 Q  Do you know where Luud Duhs sat in the feast hall, if  20 it were hosted — if it were a feast hosted by the  21 Laksamshu would she sit in the middle of the table or  22 would she sit on the ends, on either end of the table?  23 A  They didn't — as far as I know they don't sit around  24 the table, they always have — when you come into a  25 hall or potlatch house they have always — when we  26 come in the left-hand side of the building is  27 Gilseyhu, they're on the left-hand side along the  28 wall, and then on the far end they have Laksamshu, and  29 then Laksilyu and so on.  30 Q  If Laksamshu is hosting the feast, are they seated at  31 the feast as well?  32 A  If — if there's different clan that's giving the  33 potlatch, like the Gilseyhu and Laksamshu, they would  34 seat, and the only ones that aren't seated is the clan  35 that is giving the — giving the potlatch, this —  36 they give the food and they have to be up and serving  37 and they're giving the gifts to all the other clans.  38 Q  Okay, that's good.  I just got confused there because  39 I thought that if a clan is hosting a feast they  40 aren't seated, and that's what you've now told me, I  41 understand?  42 A  Yes.  43 MR. ADAMS: Well, I'm sorry, she didn't say that, she said that  44 they have to be up and serving.  45 MS. RUSSELL:  Mr. Adams, I'm not trying to make it difficult, I  46 was trying to understand.  47 MR. ADAMS:  No, I appreciate that.  I'm just saying that what 7  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  2  3  4    MS. RUS£  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  LO  A  11  Q  L2  A  L3  Q  L4  A  15  Q  L6  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  she said was they are not seated but they have to be  up and serving and they don't receive — the only ones  that don't receive are people giving the potlatch.  ,L:  And you own some land at Uncha Lake, don't you?  Yeah.  You and your husband own a lot at Uncha Lake?  Yeah.  Just a lot there.  Yes. And you own that with your husband?  Yes.  Is your husband in a house or a clan?  No, no.  He's a non-Indian.  Do your daughters attend feasts?  My oldest daughter does.  The daughter at Noralee?  Yeah, Noralee.  When was the last feast that she attended?  Last winter in April.  I wasn't here, I was in  Vancouver, but she had this then a potlatch at Grassy  Plains.  Do you remember whose feast that was, Mrs. Daum?  That was bear clan, they had given potlatch.  And was it a funeral feast?  Yes, a funeral.  And whose funeral feast was it?  The wife of my late uncle, Keo Morris.  Oh. And that was when Veronica's funeral feast was  held?  Yes.  And when was the last feast that you attended?  When my brother-in-law died last — I can't recall,  but anyways, last spring, I think it was.  Last spring?  I can't recall what month it was.  That's all right.  My brother-in-law died, he died of cancer in Burns  Lake, and we attended the potlatch, all his family,  they were from Moricetown, so we went to Moricetown.  And before last spring, before the funeral feast for  your brother-in-law, what was the last feast that you  attended before that?  They have — a year ago in May we had a clan gathering  at Burns Lake.  In April, May of 1987?  Yes.  You went to an All Clans feast?  Yes. I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 Q  And that was held in Burns Lake?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  What was the subject of that All Clans feast at Burns  4 Lake?  5 A  Where all the elders of the different bands and the  6 clans, they all — they call all the elders to speak  7 about the — they tell the younger generation about  8 how the — they lived before the white man came, how  9 they survive by hunting and fishing and trapping and  10 teaching them how the potlatch is done and how to go  11 about it, that's what it was all about, and then they  12 have the traditional — after the potlatch they have  13 their traditional Indian songs and dance.  14 Q  At this meeting did they also discuss that the  15 Carrier-Sekani people were claiming part of the  16 southern territory that the Wet'suwet'en claim?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  And do you recall what they said about the  19 Carrier-Sekani people's claim?  20 A  Well, maybe not directly to the Carrier-Sekani claim,  21 but they were talking about all the people of  22 different bands and different clans about the — they  23 were mostly speaking about they want to get their  24 rights back, hunting and fishing, because a lot of  25 native people have been charged for illegal fishing,  26 and moose hunting was out of season, and they have to  27 go to court and some of them they don't have the money  28 to pay their fine, and they were talking about do they  29 want to get their rights back.  30 Q  Did they also talk about land claims?  31 A  Yes, they did.  A lot of native people have lost their  32 part of their trapline, or sometimes all of it,  33 because there's a lot of people that have — they  3 4 can't go on their trapline because of the logging  35 industry moving in and they get pushed off their  36 trapline.  37 Q  Was Eddie John at that feast, do you remember?  38 A  Yes, he was.  3 9 Q  Do you remember if Eddie John spoke about the  40 Carrier-Sekani people's claim to the Uncha Lake area?  41 A  He did, but I wasn't there at the time, I just  42 attended one day because at the time I wasn't  43 feeling — my health wasn't all that much and I just  44 was there one day, and they have about three days,  45 three days down at the All Clan gathering.  46 Q  And on that day that you attended was there any  47 discussion of the Carrier-Sekani people claiming the s  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  Uncha Lake area?  I think they had the — that before — the day before  I was there, and the day that I was attending they  were different elders of different clans and different  because they get up and they give them the mike and  they were talking about how the young people should go  back into the old ways and trying to keep their —  hang onto their traplines and hunting areas.  Were the elders saying that some of the young people  have lost the old ways?  Yes.  Do you know how the Carrier-Sekani people's claim to  Wet'suwet'en territory was solved?  No.  I don't really know what — I know they — all I  know is I just get second-hand information because I  don't attend to not many of them because usually the  chiefs and the councillors, they attend all those  meetings, like they have — I guess this was only one  of the clan gatherings that I went to.  They have that  in different places, like Stoney Creek or Fort St.  James, and all they move to all different places.  Was there an All Clans feast held in Stoney Creek  recently?  Pardon?  Was there an All Clans feast held in Stoney Creek  recently?  Yeah.  I heard about that.  When was the Stoney Creek All Clans feast held?  I think it was last — early last spring.  I just hear  about it because I was living in Vancouver.  Do the Carrier-Sekani people still claim the Uncha  Lake area of the Wet'suwet'en claim area, do you know?  I think so.  I'm not well up on that, because we  hardly attend to any of those because I just — I  never was into any band, like I never even knew what  the band members do and what goes on there because I  have never been living on the reserve.  And you spend a lot of time in Vancouver with your  daughters, do you?  Yeah.  I lived there last — all last winter because I  was looking after the child while she's attending  school.  Mrs. Daum, when you were growing up did your mother  explain to you some of the laws of the Wet'suwet'en  people?  Yes.  She did? Did she tell you a law about the use of 10  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  tA  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  territory by people who are not in the clan?  Well, the use of the territory is for only the clan  that owns the territory.  The other ones, they're the  only ones that can hunt, trap and fish.  And what happens to people who are not members of the  clan who trap or hunt on it without permission from  the clan?  Well, they have to — those that get caught trapping  in — on some other clan's territory, the chiefs, they  would have to call a meeting and bring the person or  persons that are caught trapping, they have to stand  up and say how much of our fish or anything that they  caught, and I think they have to either pay it back or  they have to get up and they promise — they make them  promise that they can't go on that territory.  Do you know any cases where this has happened?  Not while I was growing up.  Sorry, not when I was growing up?  Yes.  Do you know of any cases that have happened like that  recently?  No.  When your dad went trapping did he trap in the Binta  Lake area as well as in the Andrews Bay area?  Yeah.  A little at Binta Lake, because we didn't live  there very long when he — when he died.  He died in 1960, didn't he?  Yes.  But his registered trapline was in the Andrews Bay  area, wasn't it?  Well, that's the territory where the Gilseyhu clan  were, Andrews Bay area.  And was that where his registered trapline was  located?  Well, I don't know what registered, but the territory  Andrews Bay area is passed on from generation to  generation in the Gilseyhu clan.  Right.  But did your dad trap in that Andrews Bay area  that you've described in your affidavit?  Yes.  He trapped there.  And your brother, Jim Andrews, has a trapline there  now, doesn't he?  Yeah.  Pardon me?  Yes.  I'm sorry, just didn't hear you.  Are you all right,  would you like a break? Would you like a break for a 11  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 minute, are you all right?  2 A  I'm all right.  3 Q  You tell me when you get tired.  4 A  Yeah.  5 Q  When your father died he left a will, didn't he?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  And in that will he left all his property to your  8 mother Julia?  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  And eventually the trapline was passed to your brother  11 Jim, is that correct?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  Does Jim still trap on that trapline today?  14 A  He don't go out very often because he doesn't have  15 anyone to go with.  16 Q  I see.  Does he rent his trapline out?  17 A  I don't think so.  18 Q  So when would the last time have been that he went  19 trapping on his trapline?  20 A  It was after when we were living in — after we moved  21 to Uncha, that would be '55 and '56.  22 Q  1955 and '56 —  23 A  Yes.  24 Q  — were the last years that he went on his trapline,  25 is that correct?  26 A  Yeah.  Well, I think he went after — like we have  27 been moved away for awhile and just moved back.  I  28 think if he had somebody he did went out trapping.  29 Q  But you're not sure that he went out on his trapline  30 since '55 and '56, is that correct?  31 A  Yeah.  I was there when — in '55 and '56 I was still  32 living at home.  33 Q  No.  I just want to be clear.  You don't know for sure  34 that he went out on his trapline after 1956, is that  35 correct?  36 A  Well, I did know a couple of times that he went after  37 that because he had somebody with him.  He's not  38 allowed to go by himself because he's deaf mute.  39 Q  Oh.  40 A  And he has to have somebody with him.  41 Q  All right, okay.  So he's probably gone a couple of  42 times since 1956 if he had some company?  43 A  Yeah, a couple of times I know, but they may have gone  44 other times too, because I was moved away for awhile  45 in Prince George, and I wasn't really around.  46 Q  Did you do any trapping or hunting in the Andrews Bay  47 area? 12  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  LO  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  When we growing up my mother had this — had a  trapline close to where we lived, and she trapped  squirrels and weasel, and I went with her.  And you went with your mother?  Muskrat.  Weasel and squirrels and mink and muskrat?  Yes.  Where did you live at the time that you went trapping?  Andrews Bay.  Have you gone trapping since your mom died in the  Andrews Bay area?  No. We sometimes go hunting there.  When was the last time you hunted in the area you  described in your affidavit?  That was more than five years ago, because my  husband's always working steady, and we hardly have  any chance to go hunting too often.  But you did go five years ago?  Pardon?  I said you did go hunting there about five years ago?  Yes.  And before that did you go hunting in the Andrews Bay  area, after your mother died?  Yes.  How many times would you have gone, Mrs. Daum, can you  give me an idea?  We went every year.  Before your mother died?  Yes.  How about after your mother died?  After she died I wasn't living around there anymore.  What year did she die?  She died '76.  And did — was she able to go out into the territory  for the last five years before she died?  No.  She wasn't able because she was quite ill.  There's a highway through your territory that you've  described, isn't there?  I beg your pardon?  A highway, a road?  Yeah.  It was built at the time the logging camp, big  logging camp was moved up there, that's when they  build the road, and I can't recall how long, it was  quite awhile ago.  Is that how you travelled to the territory, on that  road?  Pardon? 13  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 Q  Do you travel on the road you described to go to your  2 territory?  3 A  Yes, yes.  They're all the point where I chewed the  4 remaining of the trapline.  5 Q  When was the last time you visited the territory  6 that's known as the Andrews Bay territory?  7 A   '77.  I was working with the forestry, I was working  8 with the cone picking group.  9 Q  And I'm sorry, I didn't hear the rest of it.  You're  LO working for the corn picking group for the Forestry  LI Department?  L2 A  Yes.  L3 Q      And  that's  the Forestry Department  for   the British  L4 Columbia  government,   is  it?  L5 A      Yes.  L6 Q  You described the boundaries of that territory in this  L7 document, is that correct?  18 A  Yeah, yes.  19 Q  And that's your signature on page 5 of this document,  20 isn't it?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  And the description of boundary starts on page 2 and  23 goes over to page 3?  24 A  Yes.  25 MS. RUSSELL: Did you walk around this boundary?  26 MR. ADAMS:  Can I just interrupt you for one second.  Do you  27 want to put it on the record what you're showing her.  28 MS. RUSSELL:  29 Q  Fine, thanks.  I'm showing you the affidavit that you  30 signed, dated the 23rd day of June, 1988?  31 A  Yes.  3 2 Q  And signed in Vancouver?  33 A  Yes.  34 Q  Now, we were talking about the description of the  35 boundary in that document?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  Did you walk around this boundary at any time with  38 your father?  39 A  Just part of — just a little — just a little ways up  40 the river and behind Andrews Bay where we lived,  41 because just the boys stayed — go with him — they  42 know all the — they walk all the boundaries, but not  43 us girls, they just showed that to us on the map.  44 Q  So you never walked this whole boundary that you  45 described in this document?  46 A  Where it is — well, where the bush is not too hard to  47 walk in, we've been there all over behind our place 14  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 and a lot of up the river.  2 Q  Let's go through and you can tell me where you've  3 actually been on this territory as you've described  4 it. Okay, I'm reading from the document — can I put  5 this in front of — I'll put that in front of you,  6 Mrs. Daum:  7  8 "The description starts at the mouth of Talk'aay Kwe  9 (Tahtsa River)."  10  11 Have you been there at the mouth of the Tahtsa River?  12 A  Yes.  13 MS. RUSSELL:  At this west end of Ootsa Lake.  14 MR. ADAMS:  I wonder if as we come to the Wet'suwet'en names we  15 can have Victor pronounce them.  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  The first one is Talk'aay Kwe, Tahtsa River,  17 Ootsa Lake is Wutseexw Ben.  18 MS. RUSSELL:  19 Q  Thank you.  Have you been to the west end of Wutseexw  20 Ben, Ootsa Lake?  21 A  Yes.  22 MS. RUSSELL:  23 "And from here the boundary runs west along the  24 centre line of Talk'aay."  25  26 Sorry, Victor, go ahead.  27 MR. ADAMS:  Talk'aay Kwe, Tahtsa River.  28 Q  Have you been to the Tahtsa River there at the west  29 end of Ootsa Lake?  30 A  Yes.  31 MS. RUSSELL:  32 "(Which was flooded in 1952 and is now known as  33 Tahtsa Reach) to the mouth of Sibola Creek."  34  35 Have you been to that area of Sibola Creek?  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  Excuse me, it's pronounced Sibola.  37 MS. RUSSELL:  38 Q  I'm sorry, Sibola, to Sibola Creek?  39 A  Yes. We camped at the forks of where the Sibola,  40 Tahtsa and the — sorry.  41 MS. RUSSELL:  Sorry.  You had your camp at the forks of the  42 Sibola River and —  43 MR. ADAMS:  Tahtsa?  44 A  Yes.  45 MS. RUSSELL:  46 Q  And you said something else and I didn't hear you?  47 A  They had regular camp for when they hunt beaver, XD  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  0  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  muskrat and fishing.  And when you say "they" had it, that was your father  when he was hunting and trapping in that area?  Yes.  Is that right?  Regular camp for every year, every summer.  And it says — leaving off, it says:  "To the mouth of Sibola Creek (now flooded) , from  here it runs west along a ridge to Mount Sweeney."  Have you been on that ridge that runs west to Mount  Sweeney?  No. The boys did, because it's up — it would be too  hard for us women to, so the boys did.  The boys did? And did they tell you about it?  Yes.  Do you know how many — how long that ridge is, Mrs.  Daum, how many miles that would be approximately?  I  know you're guessing.  I don't think I would know how many miles.  That's fine.  And have you been on Mount Sweeney?  No.  Just usually when camped beside the river and  finished, always the men and the boys went up the  mountain.  And when you say the boys, these are your brothers; is  that who you're talking about, your brothers?  Yes.  And who are your brothers?  Tony, Alec, Peter and Jim.  And you said they told you about the territory, did  they?  Yes.  And they told you about the boundaries?  Yes.  Just on the map, they point.  And when did they point out these boundaries on a map?  There was somebody was trying to claim it or  something, and they had to have Indian agent and  conservation officer, I think — well, we were quite  small at the time, and they had set up a meeting in —  at Ootsa Lake, that's not where we lived, but there's  a store further down past west area, and they had  these people come out and they were shown that where  the boundaries and all that goes on a map.  Was that a problem with a trapline?  Well, somebody was from another trap, I guess they  were — that didn't know — that they didn't know the 16  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 boundary, and they went over the boundary and they  2 were claiming part of that, the territory, and so they  3 were just straightening it out, and they — the Indian  4 agent and game warden, they came out and they showed  5 the map, and they called a meeting between these other  6 people that thought that was the boundary was there.  7 Q  Do you remember who the other people were?  8 A  No.  I can't recall whoever. We were quite small at  9 the time, and at the time we hardly knew what was what  10 goes on.  11 Q  And this time when they showed you the boundaries on  12 the map was a long time ago?  13 A  Um-hum.  14 Q  Is that right? Have you talked to your brothers since  15 that time about the boundaries?  16 A  Yeah.  They discussed it a lot.  17 Q  When did you discuss it with your brothers?  18 A  The boundaries of this territory? When it was passed  19 onto my brother, youngest brother.  20 Q  And so you mean that that was discussed at the time  21 your — the boundaries were discussed at the time that  22 your youngest brother inherited your father's  23 trapline?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  At that time did you discuss the boundaries of the  26 entire area, that is the Gilseyhu territory at Andrews  27 Bay?  28 A  Yeah.  Not — I wasn't included in it, but the boys,  29 Jim, like all the boys they go with him and they know  30 all of where the boundaries are, like they walk all  31 the whole area and they know — they can — they know  32 where it is on a map and they know where it is by  33 walking the boundary.  34 Q  And your brothers are still alive today?  35 A  Two of them are.  36 Q  Which two are alive today?  37 A  Tony and Jim.  38 Q  Tony and Jim? Mrs. Daum, I would like to be clear on  39 something. When I'm talking about the Andrews Bay  40 territory, I'm not just talking about the trapline  41 that your father used that was registered in that  42 area, I'm talking about the entire area that is  43 surrounded by the boundaries that you've described; is  44 that clear to you?  45 A  Yes.  46  47 (SHORT BREAK TAKEN) 17  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 MS. RUSSELL:  2 Q  This affidavit of Mrs. Daum's that I've been referring  3 to is Exhibit 678 in the trial.  Before the break,  4 Mrs. Daum, we were talking about the boundaries of the  5 Andrews Bay territory?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  And you told me that you had discussed it with your  8 brothers at the time of — at the time of a dispute  9 over the area, and the Indian agent and the  10 conservation officer had come and had pointed out the  11 boundaries on a map?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q      And that was when you were a  small  child?  14 A      Yes.  15 Q  Since that time have you had the boundaries pointed  16 out to you on a map?  17 A  Yes. When it was passed on to my brother Jim.  18 Q  I'm sorry, I forgot about that.  At the time that your  19 brother Jimmy took over your father's trapline, is  20 that correct?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  At that time did you discuss the boundaries of the  23 whole Andrews Bay territory with your brother, or just  24 the area that was the trapline that he was inheriting?  25 A  The whole area of the territory.  26 Q  And that would have been about 1961 or '62?  27 A  That was 1963.  28 Q  That was in 1963?  29 A  Yeah.  30 Q  Since that time in 1963 when you discussed the  31 boundaries with your brother Jim, have you had the  32 boundaries of this area pointed out to you on a map?  33 A  Yes.  That was mostly between my brothers and — but  34 we were present at the time.  35 Q  And that's after 1963 that you were present with your  36 brothers?  37 A  That was in the year '63.  38 Q  So just so that I'm clear, since 1963 you have not had  39 an occasion to look at a map and trace the boundaries  40 of the area on a map, is that correct? Do you want me  41 to ask that again?  42 A  Yes.  43 MS. RUSSELL:  I'm sorry, it's probably a hard question.  1963  44 was the last time that you remember that you took a  45 map and traced the boundaries of the Andrews Bay  46 territory?  47 MR. ADAMS: Well, that's a different question.  She hasn't said 16  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 that she traced the boundaries.  2 MR. RUSSELL: Well, Mr. Adams, I'm asking a different question  3 again.  4 MR. ADAMS:  As long as it's clear you're not repeating the  5 question, and you said you would ask it again and you  6 didn't.  7 MS. RUSSELL:  8 Q  This isn't a trap, I'm trying to make it the simplest  9 question as I can.  Now, we'll get on with it again,  10 okay, and in 1963 — and I'll probably ask it a third  11 way, no doubt.  In 1963, Mrs. Daum, you met with your  12 brothers, right?  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  And you had a map and you've told me that you went  15 over the boundaries of the Andrews Bay territory,  16 that's correct, isn't it?  17 A  Yes.  That was done mostly by the boys because that —  18 my mother knew that we wouldn't be able to — like the  19 girls get married off and move to different places,  20 and the trapline and things that were to pass on was  21 to do mostly with the boys.  22 Q  And since 1963 has there been any other occasion on  23 which you've taken the map and gone over the  24 boundaries of the Andrews Bay area on a map?  25 A  No.  26 Q  Pardon me?  27 A  No.  28 Q  No, okay.  Let's look back at the description in the  29 document that's Exhibit 678 in the trial at the top of  30 page 3. We stopped in that description by you telling  31 me that the boys had gone on Mount Sweeney but that  32 you hadn't gone on Mount Sweeney, and that was  33 correct, wasn't it?  34 A  Yes.  35 Q  And the boundary description carries on:  36  37 "From here the boundary runs north along the ridge  38 west of Been Teezdleegh Kwe (creek flowing  3 9 east into Nadina Lake, un-named on government maps)  40 to Hondek (Smoke Mountain)."  41  42 Have you walked along that creek that flows east into  43 Nadina Lake that's described in this paragraph?  44 A  No.  My dad and the boys, they walked the boundary.  45 Q  They walked along this creek, you think?  46 A  Yes.  47 Q  Did they tell you that they did? 19  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  And did they point it out to you on a map?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  And when did they point it out to you on a map, this  5 creek that they walked along that flows into Nadina  6 Lake?  7 A  Well, they all don't always point it out on the map,  8 they talk about where they walk.  9 Q  And by their talking about it you knew where it was?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  And did you have go to Smoke Mountain?  12 A  No, no.  The boys, they always go. We as women were  13 at home or working with our mothers.  14 MS. RUSSELL:  Carrying on:  15  16 "From here it runs east along the ridge north of  17 Been Teezdleegh Kwe, to the west end of Niitl'anlii  18 Ben."  19  20 And that's Nadina Lake.  Do you know where that ridge  21 is north of —  22 THE TRANSLATOR: Been Teezdleegh Kwe.  23 MS. RUSSELL:  24 Q  Do you know where that ridge is?  25 A  What was the name again?  26 MS. RUSSELL:  Victor, can you say that name for me, please, the  27 ridge north of —  28 THE TRANSLATOR:  Been Teezdleegh Kwe.  29 A  Yes.  3 0    MS. RUSSELL:  31 Q  Pardon me?  32 A  Yes.  33 Q  Yes, you know where that ridge is? And have you  34 walked long that ridge, or is this one that your  35 brothers walked on?  36 A  Just my brothers and the men.  37 Q  And have you been to Nadina Lake?  38 A  Yes.  3 9 Q  Have you been to the Shelford Hills?  40 A  Yes. We go through there on our way to Andrews Bay.  41 Q  I see.  Is there a road through the Shelford Hills?  42 A  No.  There's no road at the time, there was a horse  43 trail for pack horse.  44 Q  So you went through the Shelford Hills when you —  45 A  Yes.  In order to get to where we lived we travelled  46 by horse on the shore, along the shore there's a horse  47 trail, or a boat. 21  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 you, Mrs. Daum?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  And did they point out landmarks on that map to you?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  They did? And did someone write down what the names  6 of those landmarks were as they went around the map?  7 A  Yes.  The names of the places was written on the map,  8 and most of them I can read and pronounce it, but  9 there are some words that I can't pronounce it because  10 of my lack of education.  11 Q  And were these your words or were these the words of  12 somebody else?  The description starts at the mouth  13 of — as this description goes, are these your words?  14 A  Yes.  They were mine, my words, because when I — we  15 had the map on the table and the boundary line was  16 shown, and I can read most of the names of the places,  17 and lakes and mountains.  18 Q  When you say the boundary line was shown on the map,  19 who showed you the boundary line?  20 A  I had Richard Overstall and Victor Jim.  21 Q  And just to be clear, did they show you the boundary  22 line on the map?  23 A  I knew where the boundary line was, but the — some of  24 the names of the places was named in Indian that I  25 couldn't pronounce too good because I didn't go to  26 school long enough, so I have to have them pronounced  27 for me, and I knew where the boundary line was when  28 they showed it when they had the map on the table.  29 Q  So they showed you first and you agreed with what they  30 showed you, is that how it went?  31 A  Yes.  Because I knew where the boundary line was from  32 before I remember that was showing it to us.  33 Q  Okay. When they met with you in Vancouver to discuss  34 the boundary, did they have this document with them?  35 Did they have a document that looked like this with  36 them at the time they met with you?  37 A  No.  38 Q  Pardon me?  3 9 A  This document here?  40 Q  Right.  41 A  Yeah.  That was made after we went through all the  42 boundary and all that.  43 Q  So they met with you a second time?  44 A  I had a — I was there one day when we went over all  45 the map and territories and all that.  The second time  46 I went there I came in to sign what I — the statement  47 that I made. I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 Q  Mm-hmm.  Is the whole area known as the Shelford Hills  2 in the Andrews Bay territory?  3 A  They have — there is Indian name for it before it  4 became Shelford Hills, I can't recall the  5 pronunciation of the name.  6 MS. RUSSELL:  From your description can you tell me, is the  7 whole area known as — I guess it's Tsec Tsaac?  8 THE TRANSLATOR:  Tsec Tsaac.  9 MR. ADAMS:  I'm not sure what you mean by the whole area? Which  10 whole area?  11 MS. RUSSELL: The whole area known as Shelford Hills area or  12 Tsec Tsaac.  13 MR. ADAMS:  No, no, I'm sorry, I haven't made my  14 misunderstanding clear. When you're talking about the  15 whole area, it's not clear what area you're referring  16 to.  17 MS. RUSSELL:  18 Q  In the description in the affidavit, Mrs. Daum, it  19 says the west end of Tsec Tsaac. And I gather that  20 the Shelford Hills area is quite a large area of  21 hills, is that correct?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  Is that whole large hilly area within your territory,  24 or is only part of that large hilly area within your  25 territory?  26 A  A part.  27 Q  And have you walked that area of the boundary where it  28 goes south from the Shelford Hills down to Ootsa Lake?  29 A  Yes.  30 Q  You've walked that area?  31 A  Yes. We go around back there with the — with my dad,  32 because he was taking us up there part of the ways  33 before they went all to pick berries.  34 Q  And that is — that was when you were a child  35 travelling in the territory?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  Mrs. Daum, who wrote this description of the boundary  38 of your territory? Who wrote this description down of  39 the boundaries of the territory?  40 A  When I was in Vancouver I went down to the — to where  41 Richard Overstall and Victor Jim were working at work,  42 I had help from him because I can't read the maps by  43 myself.  44 Q  Is that correct, you can't read maps unless you have  45 help?  46 A  Yes.  47 Q  Is that right? And did they put a map in front of I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 Q  And the second time when you came in to sign the  2 document did someone read it through with you?  3 A  I read it.  4 Q  And you understood it?  5 A  Yes.  6 Q  Was anyone there to explain the names to you?  7 A  Yes.  Victor Jim was.  8 Q  And did he explain — I'm sorry?  9 A  Yes.  Some of the Indian names that I can't pronounce,  10 they pronounced it, and then I knew where the boundary  11 and name of the mountains.  12 Q  And between the time that you first met with Richard  13 Overstall and Victor Jim and the second time that you  14 came back to sign the document that they prepared, did  15 you discuss the boundaries with anybody else?  16 A  No.  Then it — we had this document made and I just  17 came to sign it and in front of the lawyer.  18 Q  Right.  I'm sorry, I didn't hear what you said.  You  19 said —  20 A  The second time I came to the office when they called  21 me, I came in to sign the document that we had — that  22 I have made in front of the lawyer, because as a  23 witness.  24 Q  Did you discuss the boundaries with your two living  25 brothers between the time that you met with Richard  26 Overstall and the time you signed the affidavit?  27 A  No.  I had — I was living in Vancouver and I never  28 discussed it with anybody because I can't travel all  29 over with the little baby, and my daughter's going to  30 school and I have to stay at her apartment and look  31 after her little one.  32 Q  Let me tell you what I'm trying to understand.  I'm  33 trying to understand how you remembered all of this  34 material that you put in your affidavit.  You told me  35 that in 1963 was the last time before you prepared  36 ;this affidavit, that you had seen the boundaries,  37 traced — pointed out, let's say, on a map, and I just  38 want to be sure that that information and your  39 experience with your father is the basis for this  40 description that you've put in your affidavit.  Is  41 that correct, or is that too long?  42 A  Well, the boundary and all that is — it's the same.  43 When I see the map and — and it's pointed out to me,  44 I recognize the places and where the boundary goes on  45 a map, it's just the fact that I — because I didn't  46 have much education I have a hard time to pronounce  47 the words, some of the words. 23  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 Q  Let's just change the subject for a minute.  Your dad,  2 you've told me, was in the Laksamshu clan; is that  3 correct?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  But he trapped in a Gilseyhu area, is that correct?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  How did he have the right to trap in a Gilseyhu area?  8 A  His dad — his dad gave him permission along with some  9 of the Gilseyhu clan, they have the — have come to  10 meeting and they gave him the permission that he is —  11 he has to keep that trapline because they knew that it  12 would be passed onto the boys of which they're still  13 Gilseyhu clan.  14 MS. RUSSELL:  Can you tell me, is that right of the father to  15 trap — pardon me, is that right of the father to pass  16 trapping rights to his sons a right which lasts only  17 for the father's lifetime?  18 MR. ADAMS:  Just to be fair, she didn't say that.  19 MS. RUSSELL:  I'm asking her a different question, Mr. Adams,  20 and it's not a matter of being fair.  21 MR. ADAMS: Well, she's entitled to a clear question and I'm  22 entitled to understand your question.  23 MS. RUSSELL:  I'm asking her about a Wet'suwet'en law.  24 MR. ADAMS:  I understand that.  She did not say in her  25 evidence —  26 MS. RUSSELL:  I'm not asking her about her evidence.  Now, will  27 you let me get on with my cross.  28 MR. ADAMS:  No.  I object to the question, and I will advise the  29 witness not to answer until I have a ruling on my  30 objection, is what I will do.  31 MS. RUSSELL:  Is there a law —  32 MR. ADAMS:  I'm instructing the witness not to answer that  33 question because I have objected, and I'm entitled to  34 do that and I maintain the objection.  35 MS. RUSSELL:  I withdraw that question, so your objection is  36 gone.  I'm asking a different question.  37 MR. ADAMS:  Fine.  38 MS.   RUSSELL:     Is  there a  law  in Wet'suwet'en called  39 Neg'edeld'es?  40 THE TRANSLATOR:     Neg'edeld'es.  41 MS.   RDSSELL:  42 Q  Are you familiar with that law, Mrs. Daum?  43 A  I can understand, it's like the — with the — with  44 the law, if this permission is given to them they can  45 use it, even though it's belonging to the Gilseyhu  46 clan.  47 Q  Just so I'm clear, I'm not asking about the situation 24  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 where your father passed rights to his sons, because I  2 assume he knew that since they were Gilseyhu that they  3 would be able to stay in that territory.  I'm asking  4 you in general terms about that law, which is called  5 Neg'edeld'es?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  Can you tell me about that law, Neg'edeld'es, can you  8 explain it for me?  9 A  I can't really — I know the meaning of the word, but  10 I can't explain how — I can't really explain how —  11 where to put in to explain how it is, but I know —  12 but I can understand what it's — the meaning of it.  13 Q  Lucy Namox is Goohlaht, is that correct?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  And she's the head of the house in which you belong,  16 is that correct?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  Do you know the name of the house, not the name of the  19 clan, the name of the house of which she's head?  20 A  The name of the house which she's?  21 MR. ADAMS: Would it help to have that one word translated?  22 MS. RUSSELL:  The Wilp(?)?  23 MR. ADAMS:  You're in the wrong language, sorry.  24 MS. RUSSELL:  25 Q  The clan of which she's head? No, you don't  26 understand my question?  27 A  No, I'm sorry, I can't help you.  28 Q  As I understand it there are three houses in the  29 Gilseyhu clan; is that your understanding as well?  30 A  Yes, three houses.  31 MS. PUSSELL:  There's the Thin House.  Do you know the name for  32 that?  33 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yex T'sa wit'ant'.  34 MS. RUSSELL:  The Dark House.  35 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yex T'sa wii k'us.  36 MS. RUSSELL:  And the Birch Bark House.  37 THE TRANSLATOR:  C'ali yex.  38 MS. RUSSELL:  3 9        Q  Do you know those names?  40 A  Yeah, yes, I heard — yes.  I heard about them, three  41 different houses.  42 Q  Can you tell me which of those three houses, if any,  43 Lucy Namox is the head of?  44 A  No.  I don't think I know which house.  I probably  45 would know if we lived in the village, and those  46 people that live in village, they attend all those  47 things all the time, and they know every detail about I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 what goes on, but as we attend only when we can  2 because we live too far out of the way.  3 Q  You've said in your affidavit that Lucy Namox gave you  4 permission to speak about this territory; do you  5 remember that?  6 A  She — I gather she gave permission for me to whoever  7 that will — is to testify to give a description and  8 all this, but at the time I wasn't available, they  9 were looking for me at home, but I wasn't — I wasn't  LO at home and they found me in Vancouver, and that's  LI where I came into the office to make the statement,  L2 and I was told what she — that she has given  L3 permission.  L4 Q  Who contacted you to ask you to come and give  L5 evidence?  L6 A  Richard Overstall.  L7 Q  And did Richard Overstall also tell you that Lucy  L8 Namox had given permission for you to give evidence  L9 about the territory?  20 A  Yes.  21 Q  Did you have speak to Lucy Namox in person about the  22 territory?  23 A  No.  24 Q  Do you know if Lucy Namox has ever been to this  25 Andrews Bay territory?  26 A  Yeah.  I met her briefly, I don't really know her  27 personally, but I — but I know about the — she's  28 related and through my mother.  29 Q  Do you know if she's ever come to the Andrews Bay  30 area?  31 A  No.  32 Q  Do you know who Sarah Layton is?  33 A  Yes.  34 MS. RUSSELL:  And she's the head chief of the House of Yex T'sa  35 wii k'us?  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yex T'sa wii k'us.  37 MS. RUSSELL:  38 Q  And Sarah Layton is one of your neighbours in the  39 territory, isn't she?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  Mrs. Daum, this is a map which went with answers to  42 questions prepared by Lucy Namox in response to  43 questions from the provincial government.  Does this  44 area look familiar to you?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  Now, this was prepared in 1987. Did you have any  47 input into the preparation of this map; did you assist 26  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 with the preparation of this map in 1987?  2 A  Yes.  The people that were working putting — getting  3 the maps, since they were out at band office when me  4 and my daughter happened to be there.  5 Q  And what band office was that?  6 A  Nee Teh Ben band.  And the person that was one — I  7 don't really know the other — the other guys that  8 were — they were all younger, young, but one of them  9 that did work with these was Moses David.  He just  10 probably was just before he passed away.  He was with  11 the other boys that were putting the map together.  12 MS. RUSSELL:  Mrs. Daum, the boundary on the east side of this  13 map, this is the east side of this map, is different  14 in this map from the description that you have given;  15 can you agree with that? Take a look at this map and  16 please take your time.  17 MR. ADAMS:  Can she agree with the boundary or can she agree  18 that it's different?  19 MS. RUSSELL:  Can you agree with me that the boundary shown on  20 this map is different from the boundary you have  21 described in your affidavit?  22 MR. ADAMS: Well, she's already given evidence that she can't  23 read maps without assistance, and she didn't have  24 assistance.  25 MS. RUSSELL: Well, Mr. Adams, let's see if she can tell me if  26 that — if she's unable to, that's fine, but I would  27 like her to answer my question, okay.  28 MR. ADAMS:  Well, she's already testified that she can't read  29 maps without assistance, and she doesn't have any  30 assistance here.  31 MS. RUSSELL: Well, I'm sure that's a useful hint.  32 MR. ADAMS:  It's not intended to be a hint, it's intended to be  33 assistance in having a proper examination.  34 MS. RUSSELL:  Mrs. Daum —  35 MR. ADAMS:  And on that basis I will object to the question.  36 MS. RUSSELL:  37 0.  Mrs. Daum, do you know the name Nee teh ben?  38 A  Sorry, I don't —  39 MS. RUSSELL:  Could you say that for me?  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  Nee teh ben.  41 MS. RUSSELL:  42 Q  Nee teh ben, do you know the name — do you know what  43 it means?  44 A  Sorry.  45 MS. RUSSELL:  Sorry, Victor, could you try it again.  46 THE TRANSLATOR:  Nee teh ben.  47 A  Oh, yeah. //  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 MS. RUSSELL:  2 Q  What does that mean?  3 A  That — from my understanding it is an Indian name  4 from — from the way this strong river running into  5 the lake has made a current, so it's supposed to mean  6 current in the lake.  The thing is different people,  7 they have different description about the meaning of  8 the — that name, so this — whether this is the right  9 meaning, I'm not sure, because another person would  10 have the description and that Nee teh ben.  11 Q  Do you understand it to mean in English Francois Lake?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  Is Francois Lake or part of Francois Lake in the  14 Andrews Bay territory?  15 A  Sorry, I can't —  16 Q  Is the western half of Francois Lake in the Andrews  17 Bay territory?  18 A  I don't — I don't think so, because the boundary just  19 runs along the ridge of there.  20 Q  Is the whole of the Nadina River a boundary for the  21 Andrews Bay area?  22 A  I don't think the whole Nadina River is part of  23 Andrews Bay area.  24 Q  Okay, right.  Can you tell me who Noostel is?  25 A  Pardon?  26 MS. RUSSELL:  Can you say that name for me?  27 THE   TRANSLATOR:      Noostel.  28 MS.   RUSSELL:  29 Q  Noostel.  Can you tell me who Noostel is?  30 A  I heard of — I heard of the name, but I can't  31 remember who it was.  32 Q  Do you know who Caspit is?  33 A  Yes.  That one too I heard the name, it was explained  34 to me, but I — I can't tell how he was — I know  35 through my mother, she talked about him a lot.  36 Q  Do you know who Chief Louie is?  37 A  What was the name?  38 Q  Chief Louie?  39 A  Yes.  40 Q  Who was Chief Louie?  41 A  Chief Louie is belonging to the clan of Cheslatta.  42 Q  And did he — sorry?  43 A  Pardon?  44 Q  Sorry, I thought you weren't finished, I didn't want  45 to interrupt you?  46 A  I was finished.  47 Q  Did Chief Louie have a territory? 28  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 A Yes.  2 Q Is his grandson George Louie?  3 A Yes.  4 Q Does George Louie have a trapline in the Andrews Bay  5 area?  6 A They — they always went past Andrews Bay travelling  7 to their trapline further up, but where I don't know.  8 I don't know, but they always travel through our place  9 to go to their trapline.  10 Q So to be clear, you don't know if George Louie has a  11 trapline in the Andrews Bay area?  12 A No.  He goes there with his grandfather, he's always  13 with his grandfather to there wherever Chief Louie has  14 their territory or trapline.  15 Q And you don't know where Chief Louie's trapline was?  16 A No.  17 Q Do you know a George Blackwell?  18 A George — what was the last name?  19 Q Blackwell?  20 A No.  21 Q Then you don't know if he has a trapline in the  22 Andrews Bay area?  23 A No.  24 Q Did you know Cyril Shelford?  25 A Yes.  26 Q Did you know that he used to have a trapline in the  27 Andrews Bay area?  28 A I suppose he did, but I don't know if they had a  29 trapline.  30 Q In fact, your father and Cyril Shelford's father were  31 friends, weren't they?  32 A Yeah.  He knew them quite well, I guess.  33 Q Do you know an Alfred Eiken(phonetics)?  34 A Yes.  I heard of him.  35 Q Do you know that he has a trapline in the Andrews Bay  36 area?  37 A I'm not sure if he did.  He probably did because my  38 dad, he would know all that.  3 9 Q Do you know a Mitch Oggen, O-G-G-E-N?  40 A Yes.  41 Q And he's a member of the Omineca band, isn't he?  42 A Yes.  43 Q And did you know that the Omineca band has a trapline  44 in the Andrews Bay area?  45 A Sorry. What was the question?  46 Q Do you know — I'll change it. Do you know if the  47 Omineca band in the name of Mitch Oggen has a trapline 29  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  LO  LI  A  L2  L3  Q  L4  A  L5  Q  L6  A  L7  Q  L8  A  L9  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  JO  A  $1  32  Q  33  34  A  55  $6  37  38  Q  39  10  A  41  12  Q  43  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  in the Andrews Bay area?  No, no.  I knew Mitch — I knew who Mitch Oggen is,  but I never knew if he had a trapline.  There are a number of non-Indian people who live in  the Andrews Bay area, aren't there?  Yes.  There are a number of Indian people who are not a  member — who are not members of Goohlaht's house who  live in the area, is that correct; to the best of your  knowledge, I realize you don't know everyone?  I don't really know any close name of any other Indian  people other than my aunt and uncle.  Your aunt and uncle?  Yeah.  Who are your aunt and uncle?  Matthew Sam and his wife.  This is not Topley Mathew Sam that we're discussing?  No.  This is Matthew Sam from Noralee.  From Noralee. What is his wife's name?  Amelia.  Amelia Sam, okay.  Do you know what house Matthew Sam  is in?  Matthew Sam, he was in the bear clan at Gitdumden, but  I don't know which house of Gitdumden because I'm not  too familiar with them.  Is your aunt in the Gilseyhu clan?  Yes.  I see. And is it because of her that he has the right  to live in the Gilseyhu clan area?  He's — his mother was a Gilseyhu. Yeah.  I think  that was the reason for him living in that area.  Does he need to ask permission from Lucy Namox to live  in the Gilseyhu area?  Yeah, I suppose, otherwise I don't think he would be  on their land.  I suppose that he has been given  permission because of his mother being a Gilseyhu and  his wife is also Gilseyhu.  But you don't know if he's asked permission of Lucy  Namox?  No.  I don't know, because we don't hardly communicate  outside world very much.  Mrs. Daum, your husband's a logger, is that correct?  Yes.  Where does he log, where does he cut his logs?  He's working for somebody all the time down Cheslatta  way and across Uncha Lake.  Uncha Lake area? JU  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 A  Um-hum.  2 Q  Do you know who's territory Uncha Lake is in?  3 A  That is also owned by Gilseyhu.  4 Q  By Goohlaht?  5 A  Yeah, yep.  6 Q  Does your husband ask permission to cut trees in  7 Goohlaht's area?  8 A  Well, he's — he's working wherever he's given the  9 job.  I guess the people that would get permission is  LO the forestry, they're the people that the loggers —  LI they're the people that sell the timber to the people  L2 that — to the people that cut half the — they have  L3 the business of cutting down trees and —  L4 Q  Just a little bit more.  Mrs. Daum, did you know that  L5 in May of 1987 that the boundary of your territory  L6 included part of Francois Lake or Francis Lake?  L7 A  Yes.  18 MR.   ADAMS:     What was  the  question?  L9 MS.   RUSSELL:     Did you  know that  in May of 1987  the territory of  20 Goohlaht at Andrews Bay  included part of Francois  21 Lake?  22 MR. ADAMS: Well, excuse me just a second.  I'm not clear on  23 that question either.  Are you asking her about the  24 map that's labelled "Draft copy" that shows that, or  25 are you asking her what the boundary was at that time?  26 It's not at all clear to me which.  27 MS. RUSSELL:  28 Q  Well, that's helpful.  Do you know of the differences  29 in the boundary of the area you've now described as  30 the boundary existed in May of 1987?  31 A  The only way I would know the difference is if I have  32 somebody to point out what changes has been made.  33 Q  Do you know that as Lucy Namox described this  34 territory in May of 1987 that the boundary included  35 part of Francis Lake?  36 A  Yes. At the time I happened to be at the band office,  37 Moses David was really — he knows all the things, he  38 was — he was the one they had — they had the map and  39 they mentioned that.  40 Q  Was the inclusion of Francis Lake incorrect in the  41 Andrews Bay area of Goohlaht?  42 A  No, it was not, they were — they all know what the —  43 where the boundaries are and they — I don't think  44 that was incorrect.  45 Q  But it's not included now in the area you describe in  46 your affidavit, is it?  47 A  No.  I don't think it was. 31  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  Re-in chief by Mr. Adams  1 MS. RUSSELL:  Those are my questions, thank you.  Mr. 0'Byrne,  2 I'm sure, will have some for you.  3 MR. O'BYRNE:  I just have very few and unless there's an  4 objection I'll ask them from here.  5 MR. ADAMS:  Oh, sure.  6  7 CROSSrEXAMINATION_BY_MRi_QiBYRNEi  8 Q  Mrs. Daum, I just have some very short questions.  Do  9 you know the mountain or peak called Sibola Peak or  LO Sibola Mountain?  LI A  Yeah.  L2 Q  That's near Mount Sweeney, isn't it?  L3 A  Yes.  14 Q  And is that mountain, Sibola Mountain or Sibola Peak,  L5 is that within the Andrews Bay territory that you've  16 described in your affidavit?  17 A  Yes.  L8   MR. O'BYRNE:  That's all the questions I have.  19  20 RE-EXAMINATION_IN_CHIEF_BY_MRA_ADAMSi  21 Q  I have a few.  Miss Russell was asking you some  22 questions about feasts, potlatches, and I'm going to  23 have one crack at clarifying something that was not  24 clear there.  That is a clan that is hosting, that is  25 putting up a potlatch, do they have places to sit down  26 at that potlatch?  27 A  The clan that's putting a potlatch on, no, they don't  28 usually sit down to be serving.  29 Q  You mentioned that you were in Vancouver, you said you  30 lived in Vancouver all last winter, and I wanted to  31 ask you were there any other winters when you lived in  32 Vancouver?  33 A  No.  34 Q  That was the only time?  35 A  Yes.  36 Q  All right.  Miss Russell was asking you some questions  37 about your father's will, and I just wanted to ask you  38 if you've ever seen that will?  39 A  Yes.  40 Q  Do you recall whether that will mentioned a trapline?  41 A  Pardon?  42 Q  Do you recall whether the will that you saw mentioned  43 the trapline specifically?  44 A  Not the trapline specifically, it was the will of the  45 place that the "Ag" lease was running on.  46 MS. RUSSELL:  To be clear, is that the "Agricultural lease"?  47 A  Yes. When he made a will he left it to my mother, and J /.  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  when she was ill and she passed onto my eldest  brother.  MR. ADAMS  Q  Miss Russell was asking you some questions about a  road, and you said there was a highway through the  territory built at the time the logging camp was moved  up there, and then you said you travelled on the road  and then you said it goes right through the — and I  believe you said the remaining of the trapline was  exactly what you said, and I want just to ask you, was  some part of the trapline removed at sometime?  MS. RUSSELL:  I don't think that arises, Mr. Adams, but I'm not  going to object to it.  MR. ADAMS:  It certainly does, it's a clarification of an  answer.  MS. RUSSELL:  Go ahead.  A  As part of the trapline.  MR. ADAMS:  Q  Was part of the trapline removed so as to leave a  remainder?  A  No. Why it is part of the trapline was because the  other part was flooded.  Q  When did that happen?  A  And there was just — — and one part is flooded and  there's some parts left.  Q  When did that happen, do you know?  A  When the lake was flooded?  Q  Um-hum.  If that's the time you're referring to?  A  In '52, I think.  Yeah, '52.  MR. ADAMS:  You spoke about a time in some detail that your  brothers apparently had a discussion with the Indian  agent, and I believe you referred to a game warden.  MS. RUSSELL:  Conservation officer.  MR. ADAMS:  Q  Conservation officer, thank you.  And I just want to  ask you whether you understood that conversation to be  about the trapline registered with the government or  about the Gilseyhu territory that you've described in  your affidavit?  A  It was about the registered trapline.  Q  I wanted to ask you when you first lived, you  personally, first lived at Andrews Bay?  A  When I first lived at Andrews Bay?  Q  Um-hum.  A  I was born there.  Q  You were born there?  A  Yeah. J J  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Adams  1 Q  And for how long after that did you continue to live  2 there?  3 A  Right up until the lake was flooded.  4 Q  Right up until the lake was flooded?  5 A  Yeah, in '52.  6 MR. ADAMS:  And I understood you to say that, and correct me if  7 I'm wrong about the date, I understood you to say that  8 in 1963 "We got moved off".  9 MS. RUSSELL:  I don't have that.  10 MR. O'BYRNE:  Not my recollection at all.  11 MR. ADAMS:  I've got the note taken down "We got moved off", and  12 it's right under a reference, 1963, done mosty by the  13 boys.  It was in a series of questions about  14 discussions with her brothers.  15 MS. RUSSELL:  Mr. Adams, if I recall those questions, they had  16 to do with the passing of the trapline to her brother  17 Jimmy, there was nothing about "moved off".  18 MR. ADAMS: Well, I'm sorry, I have a note which I will stand by  19 that says "We got moved off", and I have a note to ask  20 a question on redirect about "Moved off".  21 MS. RUSSELL: Well, if it's confined to 1963, go ahead.  22 MR. ADAMS:  I'm trying to make sure that's the right year she  23 was referring to.  I am — what I'm trying to do of  24 course is clarify her answer so we know what she was  25 talking about.  26 MS. RUSSELL:  Go ahead, Mr. Adams.  27 MR. ADAMS:  Thank you.  I want to know when and what you were  28 referring to when you said "We got moved off".  29 MS. RUSSELL:  This is in 1963, Mr. Adams.  30 MR. ADAMS:  I'm trying to find that out as I say it.  31 MS. RUSSELL:  Perhaps you can specify a time period.  32 MR. ADAMS:  I specified a date and said "Correct me if I'm  33 wrong".  I don't know how much clearer I can be in the  34 question.  35 MS.   RUSSELL:     I'm still  not  clear.     Is   it  1963  you're asking  36 about?  37 MR. ADAMS:  38 Q  Let me start again.  My note of your evidence today  39 says that you said "We got moved off", and what I want  40 to know is when did that happen and what did you mean?  41 A  You mean moved off the Andrews Bay?  42 Q  I want to know what you meant.  I didn't understand  43 what you meant and I wanted to know.  44 A  Well, we moved off when the lake was being flooded and  45 moved to my uncle's place.  46 Q  And when was that?  47 A  In '52, like most the people, including ourselves, 34  I. Daum (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Adams  1 they were from what the — from my understanding they  2 have — everyone had very short notice that the lake  3 was coming up and you all have to work fast and move  4 to a different location.  5 Q  And where did you move to?  6 A  Noralee Lake.  7 Q  To Noralee Lake? Is that Noralee Lake, is that the  8 name you said?  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  You were answering a question about the three houses  11 in the Gilseyhu clan, was the first part of this  12 question.  And you said "I don't know which house Lucy  13 Namox is head of", and then you said "I probably would  14 have known if we lived in the village, they attend all  15 the time".  And I just want to ask you what did they  16 attend you were talking about?  17 A  The potlatches and all the things they have to do in  18 order to get the name to be the head of the clan.  19 Q  You were asked some questions about Matthew Sam,  20 Amelia Sam's husband, and I just want to know first of  21 all is Matthew Sam still living?  22 A  No.  23 Q  Do you know when he died?  24 A  Back in '74.  25 Q  And you were talking about the place where Matthew Sam  26 and Amelia Sam lived, and I just want to know do you  27 know when they first lived there?  28 A  They always have been living there, I think, because  29 Matthew Sam's parents have been living there before  30 him.  31 Q  And Miss Russell asked you whether you knew whether  32 Matthew Sam had permission from Lucy Namox to live  33 there, and I just want to know, do you know whether  34 Lucy Namox took the name Goohlaht?  35 A  No.  I guess that all happened before we were born.  36 MR. ADAMS:  Those are all my questions, thank you.  37  3 8 (EXAMINATION ADJOURNED)  39  40  41  42  43  44  46  47  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings to the best of  my skil>' an/1 abi 1 i-  45 ,<p^w^r  *3 Gr'aham D. Parke'  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd 


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