Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Elsie Quaw British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 28, 1988

Item Metadata

Download

Media
delgamuukw-1.0018488.pdf
Metadata
JSON: delgamuukw-1.0018488.json
JSON-LD: delgamuukw-1.0018488-ld.json
RDF/XML (Pretty): delgamuukw-1.0018488-rdf.xml
RDF/JSON: delgamuukw-1.0018488-rdf.json
Turtle: delgamuukw-1.0018488-turtle.txt
N-Triples: delgamuukw-1.0018488-rdf-ntriples.txt
Original Record: delgamuukw-1.0018488-source.json
Full Text
delgamuukw-1.0018488-fulltext.txt
Citation
delgamuukw-1.0018488.ris

Full Text

 <3ln tip Supreme Court of Jintifilf Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  Smithers, B. C.  November 28, 1988  BETWEEN:  AND  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs  HER MAOESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  ELSIE QUAW  mil  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.. 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET, WCOUVER. aC V6E 4H4 (604) 6KM08B <3Jn tl|c Supreme Court of JSritisl| Columbia  Na  0843  Smithers  Registry  Smithers,   B.   C.  November   28,   1988,  BETWEEN:  AND:  DELGAMUUKW, also know as   KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  ELSIE QUAW  MS. LOUISE MANDELL,  appearing for the Plaintiffs;  MS. LORYL RUSSELL,  DARRELL O'BYRNE, Esq.,  appearing for the Defendant  Attorney-General for Canada;  appearing for the Defendant  Province of British Columbia  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE JD.. 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET. VANCOUVER, at V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1088 Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 Smithers, B. C.  2 November 28, 1988.  3  4 ELSIE QUAW, a witness for the  5 plaintiffs, after first being  6 duly sworn, testified as  7 follows:  8  9   MS. RUSSELL:  This is the cross-examination of Mrs. Elsie Quaw.  10 My name is Loryl Russell, I am acting for the  11 Attorney-General of Canada, and before we commence,  12 Ms. Mandell has advised me that there are changes to  13 be made to Mrs. Quaw's territorial affidavit.  She  14 will put those changes on the record at this time.  15 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you.  Mrs. Quaw, I am going to show to you  16 an affidavit which was sworn on July 28th and ask you  17 whether or not that's your signature?  18 A  It is.  19 Q  And did you swear that affidavit?  20 A  Yes.  21 Q  At paragraph one it says that you are a hereditary  22 chief; is that information correct?  23 A  No.  24 Q  And in paragraph two it says that your Cheslatta name  25 is Thallah, is that your chief's name or was that the  26 chief's name of your grandmother?  27 A  My grandmother's name.  28 MS. MANDELL:  I propose to strike, in paragraph one, the words  29 "hereditary chief".  And you are the daughter of Keom  30 Morris, are you not?  31 A  Yes.  32 Q  And in its place put daughter of Keom Morris, so  33 paragraph one would read:  "I am a Cheslatta, daughter  34 of Keom Morris" and the words hereditary chief would  35 be struck from that paragraph.  36 And in paragraph two I propose to strike the first  37 sentence, "My Cheslatta chief's name is Thallah" and  38 leave paragraph two to then read, "I am a member of  39 the Gitdumden clan"; is that correct now?  40 A  Yes.  41  42    CROSS-EXAMINATION_BY_MS.. RUSSELL:  43  44 MS. RUSSELL:  45 Q  I have some questions for you, Mrs. Quaw, and if you  46 don't understand them or can't hear me, tell me and I  47 will repeat my question or if you need a break or have Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  to stop to have a glass of water, tell me and we will  all try to accomodate you.  Yes.  Please forgive my mistakes in pronunciation.  I will  do my best.  Okay.  Mrs. Quaw, where were you born?  I was born in Hospital Point — I was born at Uncha  Lake.  And Hospital Point is a place —  That's where I was born but my dad and mum were living  at Uncha Lake; that's where I was raised up.  And when were you born, Mrs. Quaw?  July 20th, 1927.  And did you live all your life at Uncha Lake until you  were married?  Yes.  I see.  And did you go to school in the area of Uncha  Lake?  I went to school at the residential school at  La Jacques School.  La Jacques Residential School?  Yes.  When did you go to La Jacques residential school?  1936 to '43.  And were you employed, Mrs. Quaw, did you have a job?  Any specific time?  Sorry, after you finished school.  No.  Did you work at all before you were married?  No.  And did you — were you employed after you were  married?  No.  And were you married to Jimmy Quaw?  Yes.  And, I am sorry, you are married to Jimmy Quaw?  Yes.  When were you married, Mrs. Quaw?  1947, April.  And where is Mr. Quaw from originally?  Stoney Creek Reserve.  And you are now both members of the Cheslatta Band,  are you not?  No.  No? Please correct me. What band are you members of?  Right now I am Honcaagh Ben. Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 Q And Mr. Quaw, what band is he a member of?  2 A He is a Stoney Creek Band in Vanderhoof.  3 Q And where do you live at present?  4 A Grassy Plain.  5 Q And your husband, he — has he been employed since you  6 were married?  7 A He was self-employed in the bush.  8 Q As a logger?  9 A As a tie hacker.  10 Q And when was that, Mrs. Quaw?  11 A That was in '49 to '51.  12 Q And what has he done since that time in the way of  13 employment, Mrs. Quaw?  14 A I don't know if it got anything to do with me because  15 I am divorced from him in '69.  16 Q I see.  Before your divorce, what did he do as  17 employment?  18 A He work on the highways, he worked for a while at  19 B. C. Tel and Hydro.  20 Q Did he hunt, Mrs. Quaw?  21 A Yes.  22 Q And where did he hunt?  23 A Where did he hunt?  24 Q Yes, where did he do his hunting? Was there one  25 particular area or several?  26 A Excuse me.  It's got nothing to do with this area.  27 Q Okay, you can tell me if he didn't hunt in the claim  28 area, you can tell me that?  29 A Yeah.  30 Q You have to answer my questions.  31 A It doesn't concern this area where he is hunting.  He  32 comes from Stoney Creek.  33 Q So he didn't at any time hunt in the Honcaagh Ben  34 area?  35 A No.  36 Q He didn't. Was he a trapper, Mrs. Quaw?  37 A Yes, all Indians are trappers.  38 Q But did he go trapping for a living?  39 A Yes.  40 Q Did he trap in the Honcaagh Ben area?  41 A No.  42 Q Did he trap to support the family?  43 A Yes.  44 Q And did he trap every year that you were married?  45 A Yes.  46 Q And, Mrs. Quaw, did you trap?  47 A Oh, yes. Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  And did you go trapping every year to support your  family?  When I was single I did go with my dad on his  trapline.  How many years would you have gone with your dad on  his trapline?  The whole family goes so I was along every season when  they had to go trapping and hunting.  Does that include the years that you were at school at  La Jacques, did you go trapping with him then too?  No.  So those years you didn't trap with him?  No.  1946 did you say — sorry — what years did you go to  school at La Jacques?  1936 to '43.  So for those seven years you didn't trap with him?  No.  Did you trap with him after 1943?  Yes.  And do you remember how many years you went trapping  with him after 1943?  •44 To '46.  '44 to 1946?  Yes.  I see.  Did you trap — you were married in 1946?  '47.  Did you trap with your husband after 1947?  No.  So did he go trapping at all after 1947?  No.  I was in Stoney Creek, not Honcaagh Ben.  And are you a fisherperson, Mrs. Quaw, did you go  fishing?  Yes.  And did you do that every year?  Yes.  And you went with your family except for the years  that you were at school?  Yes.  And did you go fishing with your husband after you  were married?  Oh, yes.  And where did you go fishing with your husband?  In Stoney Creek.  I see.  Did you go fishing with your father in the  Honcaagh Ben area?  Yes. Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 Q  Were there fishing sites that he went to at Honcaagh  2 Ben?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  Can you tell me where those fishing sites are, the  5 names and the locations?  6 A  The fishing sites are where the white people are  7 living now.  8 Q  Go ahead.  Sorry.  9 A  One place is a white man put an A-frame house by the  10 lake, it's Lots c'et, that means a white fish, you  11 know, where white fish comes to the shore and my  12 sister's deceased now, Nancy K. Morris, they fought  13 with that white man from toe to toe, but she lost out  14 and that guy build a house there.  Building is there  15 now.  16 Q  So you couldn't fish there any more?  17 A  No.  18 Q      When did  he  build  the house  there?  19 A       I  don't  know because  I was  then at Vanderhoof,   Stoney  20 Creek.  21 Q  When was the last time that you went fishing at the  22 fishing sites in the Honcaagh Ben area?  23 A  I'd say 1943, winter.  24 THE TRANSLATOR: The last time?  25 A  Oh, the last time.  Went this fall.  26 MS. RUSSELL:  27 Q  Sorry, that was —  28 A  We are going one whole week, we went fishing at Uncha  29 Lake.  3 0 Q  When was that?  31 A  This October and November.  32 Q  This year?  33 A  Yes.  34 Q  And this is now November of 1988 so you went in  35 October of 1988?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  And before that, Mrs. Quaw, when was the last time you  38 went fishing in Honcaagh Ben?  3 9 A  That's 1946, when my mother died.  40 Q  And your mother was Emelia, was it not?  41 A  No, her name is Amanda.  42 Q  I am sorry.  Beg your pardon. Amanda.  Thank you.  43 And did you hunt in the Honcaagh Ben area with your  44 father?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  And when was the last time you went hunting in the  47 Honcaagh Ben area? Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  The last time I went hunting is — he went hunting  with us about two years before he died.  And he died in 1973?  '73, yes.  So the last time you went hunting with him was 1971?  Hm-hmm.  And did you go hunting with him before 1971, the last  time before 1971?  No.  You hadn't gone hunting with him since you were a  child; is that correct?  I did go hunting with him.  When did you go hunting with your father in the  Honcaagh Ben area as a child?  All my life because as an Indian family, we are  nomads, we go from place to place and not only my  family, all the families of the Indian, our  neighbours, just go from camp to camp, fishing camp.  And you went to school so you couldn't hunt those  years with your father, you told me you couldn't go  out on the trapline with him, and you couldn't hunt  with him either, is that correct, when you were at  school?  Yes.  So did you go hunting with him after 1943.  Yes.  1944?  Correction there.  Please, go ahead.  I went to school ten months of the year, and there is  a summer time, one week of hunting.  So you went hunting in the summer holidays with your  father during those years?  Yes.  And after you finished school in 1943, did you go  hunting with him again in 1944?  Yes.  And 1945?  '43 to *46.  You hunted then?  Yes.  And after 1946 when was the next time you hunted in  the Honcaagh Ben area?  I don't recall.  Would it be in the last ten years, Mrs. Quaw?  Less than that. We went hunting a lot of times but I  couldn't say exact date. Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  Did you go hunting every two years or three years as  you needed meat perhaps?  In those years, I was in Stoney Creek so I come back  every once in a while on some holidays and then go  hunting.  I see.  So, would you come back every year, every two  years or can you recall?  I came back every year, most of the time.  So did you hunt every year then in Honcaagh Ben after  you moved?  Yes.  And you're certain of that?  Hm-hmm.  What did you hunt for in the Honcaagh Ben area?  We hunt black bear, moose, deer.  So that you visited for pretty well the whole of the  hunting season every year?  Yes.  You came back to your family home and visited every  year?  Yes.  And did you hunt for food for the feasts?  Yes.  I see.  And what foods did you hunt that were used in  the feast?  Like beaver and a moose and a deer.  Anything else?  And the fish.  Okay. When was the last feast that you attended, Mrs.  Quaw?  I attended the last feast in Lake Babine in Burns  Lake.  In Burns Lake.  Yes.  When was that feast?  That was about a month ago.  About a month ago.  And whose feast was that, do you  recall?  That was member of my clan, Gitdumden, and it was  burial feast.  Do you remember the name of the person for whom the  feast was held?  Yes, Peter Alex.  And before Mr. Alex's feast,- when was the feast that  you attended before Mr. Alex's feast?  That was my stepmother's burial feast at Grassy Plain,  That's Mrs. Veronica Morris? Elsie Quaw   (For  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms.   Russell  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Yes.  When was that feast?  I don't recall.  Jerico can refresh my memory.  That's fine, it's not something I am concerned about  particularly.  It was in the last three or four years?  No, last year.  Thank you.  Before Mrs. Morris's feast, can you tell me the  feast you went to before her feast?  It was my sister's burial feast.  Nancy K. Morris?  Yes.  Do you recall when that was, Mrs. Quaw?  That was — she died in *86, Christmas day, and then  that was in — it was soon after.  Thank you.  Can you tell me, Mrs. Quaw, what  traditional foods were served at — let's start with  Nancy's feast, Nancy K. Morris's feast, what kinds of  foods were served at that feast?  Beaver and venison and moose and fish.  And were these foods gathered from the Honcaagh Ben  territory?  Oh, yes.  Mrs. Quaw, can you tell me something about the  Wet'suwet'en laws with which you are familiar, can you  tell me what the Wet'suwet'en law is about use of  territory, concerning who can use that territory?  Gilseyhu.  Sorry, if it's Gilseyhu, what's the concern of law if  it's concerning the territory, laws of the territory  if it's a Gilseyhu territory?  Well, they use it for hunting and trapping and fishing  and all what it doesn't separate the Indians from what  they do, everybody does the same thing.  All the Gilseyhu people can use the Gilseyhu  territory?  Yes.  Does it matter what house in the Gilseyhu they are in,  whether or not they use the territory?  In the Honcaagh Ben area, that's Lucy Namox, the House  of Goohlaht.  And you're referring to your affidavit.  Please go  ahead.  Yes. Do you want me to —  That's fine. Do you know —  Obtain permission to — I have been up —  "...permission from Goohlaht, a plaintiff in this Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  action, to describe and speak of the Honcaagh Ben  territory claimed by the house of Goohlaht.  This  territory is located south of Tsee K'ez Ceek (Burns  Lake) 104 miles southeast of the Village of Kyah  Wiget."  That's Moricetown.  "I was instructed about  the Honcaagh Ben territory and its boundary by my  father, the former Tabeeneleegh." That's my dad, Keom  Morris.  Thank you, this document is already in evidence, it's  part of the trial so you're welcome to refer to it but  you don't need to read it in.  It's part of the  evidence.  Yeah.  I was really asking you whether you knew about any law  concerning trespass on the Gilseyhu territory, do you  know any law about what happens to trespassers on the  territory?  There is a law a person has to get permission from  Goohlaht to go ahead and do any fishing or hunting.  Are you a member of the House of Goohlaht yourself?  No.  You're not.  But your father was?  Yes.  What house was your mother in?  She is — my — I was thinking about my grandmother's  name is — what was her name?  You're referring to your affidavit there?  Yes, Thallah, her name is Thallah, she wouldn't have a  name if she didn't —if she was not a hereditary  chief.  Yes.  So she must have had a name like that, if her dad or  her mother was not a chief, she wouldn't have a name.  Okay.  And your mother's mother then was chief  Thallah, right, your grandmother was Thallah?  I have no recollection of that because they were all  dead before I was even born.  But in your affidavit, before it was changed, there  was a mistake, that's correct, isn't it?  Yes.  And it should have said in paragraph two, "My  grandmother's name was Thallah"?  Hm-hmm.  Do you recall what your mother's chief's name was or  did she have one?  No.  She did not  have a  chief's name. 10  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25    MS. RUSJ  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  Do you know what house she was in?  No.  Do you know what clan she was?  She was Gitdumden Clan.  She was Gitdumden?  Yes.  Do you know where your mother was born?  Cheslatta.  Cheslatta Reserve?  Yes.  Do you have a name, Mrs. Quaw, an Indian name?  No.  Did your father tell you the stories of his house, did  he tell you the Kungax of his house?  I don't understand.  I am sorry.  Your father was a member of the House of  Goohlaht, correct?  Yes, husband is.  And his name was Tebeeneleegh?  Tebeeneleegh.  Tebeeneleegh.  Did he tell you the Kungax, the stories  of the House of Goohlaht?  I don't understand what you mean by Kungax.  Kungax.  LL:  The word person is going to help us here.  Oh, the Kungax.  I am sorry, Mrs. Quaw, forgive my pronunciation, the  Kungax.  Did your father tell you the Kungax of the  House of Goohlaht?  Like walking the line.  Pardon me?  Walking a straight line as an Indian, true Indian.  All right.  Can you tell me about that, what you mean  by walking a straight line as an Indian?  Like respect yourself and not to say anything wrong  against another, another person with a name.  Okay.  And did he tell you the history of the House of  Goohlaht?  History?  Did he tell you where the people in the Gilseyhu Clan,  in the House of Goohlaht, where they came from, where  they began?  I never studied that but —  I am not trying to trick you, I just wondered if your  father told you these stories, told you any stories  about the House of Goohlaht?  He told stories about big names like that I couldn't 11  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  understand when I was young and I never listened.  Kids never listen to their parents.  No.  Because my dad was a big man and he acted his  role as an Indian.  Okay.  Did he tell you a lot of stories about the  names in the House of Goohlaht when you were a child,  Mrs. Quaw?  He said the House of Yex t'sa wit'ant' and about the  different houses he mentioned I couldn't recall.  Did he mention the Thin House?  Yes.  And —  Well, that's the one, Yex t'sa wit'ant'.  Did he tell you which village the Thin House came  from?  I don't recall.  Because he mentioned all the houses  and then who belongs there, they got lots of names I  couldn't pronounce.  It's hard to remember them all now, isn't it?  Did he tell you about longhouses?  Yes, longhouses was mentioned.  Did he live in a longhouse?  Oh, ye s.  And do you recall where that longhouse was located?  He had a house — it's a house that belongs to  Goohlaht, and that's where all the members of his clan  gather.  Did he — was he raised as a child in the longhouse of  Goohlaht?  Yes.  He was.  Do you know how old he was when he left that  longhouse?  He was always active until his death.  No, I understand that.  Do you know how old he was  when he moved out from the longhouse?  I don't recall.  He didn't tell you that?  No.  He never — any business going on with his clan,  that's Gilseyhu Clan, he is always there, he travel  from Hazelton right down to Prince George, Stoney  Creek, wherever things going and his — in his clan he  goes there.  Okay.  So that he couldn't go to one specific longhouse.  I am sorry, Mrs. Quaw, that's my fault.  I wondered if  he had, as a child, lived in the longhouse of the  Wet'suwet'en? 12  Elsie Quaw  Cross-exam  (For Plaintiffs)  by Ms. Russell  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  I don't recall because that is a long time ago.  He didn't tell you about living in the longhouse then?  He probably did because I didn't listen.  But you don't recall now if he told you about living  in the longhouse as a child?  Yes.  I am sorry, you do or you don't recall that he told  you that?  I know he told me but I don't recall that place he  mentioned, I don't recall it.  Because the Indians  they have a lot of names and a lot of names for things  that I didn't understand.  So you don't know if he grew up in the longhouse, you  just know that he told you at sometime about a  longhouse?  Yes.  Do you know where your father was born?  He was born at Uncha Lake.  At Uncha Lake.  Okay.  I am sorry if I have asked you  this, where was your mother born?  Cheslatta.  I am sorry, I did ask you that.  And, Mrs. Quaw, I would like you to tell me about  your family, how many brothers and sisters did you  have and what were their names?  Thomas K. Morris, he is present here, and Mary Thomas  is married in Stoney Creek.  Mary Thomas was her name?  Yes.  And is she your half sister?  My full sister.  Your full sister.  And my sister Nancy deceased '86.  And myself.  And is your sister, Mary Thomas, married to Steven  Quaw?  No.  I have got the wrong Mary?  No, Mary Jasper Thomas from Stoney Creek.  And is Mary Thomas her married name?  Yes.  Did your father have a trapline, Mrs. Quaw?  Yes.  And where was his trapline?  Up the Whitesail River, that's a big mountain across  Ootsa Lake.  Okay.  Do you know whose territory that trapline was  in? 13  Elsie Quaw   (For  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms.  Russell  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  That was Gilseyhu.  Gilseyhu Clan?  Yes.  Do you know what house that territory belonged to?  Goohlaht.  To Goohlaht?  Yeah.  Is it familiar to you to be called a Goohlaht Caspit  territory, are you familiar with the name Caspit?  Yes.  Is that correct that his trapline was in a Goohlaht  Caspit territory?  I believe so.  Because my dad mentioned the name.  And as a member of the Gilseyhu Clan, could he trap in  any Goohlaht territory?  Only where he was registered up Whitesail River and  all that area, you know, Whitesail.  I see.  So he trapped in the Whitesail River area  where he had a registered trapline. Did he also trap  in Honcaagh Ben territory?  Only if he had permission from his brother because he  was raised up in Uncha Lake and then so was his  brother.  Which brother would that be?  Joseph Morris.  So he would have to ask permission from Joseph to trap  in the Honcaagh Ben area?  He never had no permission, he just went ahead because  that's his territory.  Goohlaht territory.  So that happened in both areas then, in Honcaagh Ben  and in the Whitesail River territory?  No, not until government registered them.  Do you recall when he was registered in the Whitesail  River area?  All his life.  So he was registered there when, in the 1920s?  Well, there were — I believe so, because as I grew up  everybody went there and I know as a child the first  time I could remember, I was up there.  By up there you mean the Whitesail River area?  Yes, yes.  Did you go more often to the Whitesail River area than  you did to the Honcaagh Ben area to trap?  No, we were all over the place.  No, not one place.  Are you tired, Mrs. Quaw? Would you like to take a  break.  Yes, please. 14  Elsie Quaw  Cross-exam  (For Plaintiffs)  by Ms. Russell  1  (I  2  3    MS. RUS£  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING RECESS)  Mrs. Quaw, there are a number of people who are not in  Goohlaht's House who live on the Honcaagh Ben  territory; is that correct?  Yes.  And there are a number of people, both Indian and  non-Indian, who are not members of Goohlaht's House  who live in the Honcaagh Ben territory, that's  correct, isn't it?  Yes.  And among those people there are a number who have  traplines in that Honcaagh Ben territory; is that  correct?  Yes.  Do you know Mr. Hoyt Burt?  Yes.  Does he have a trapline in the Honcaagh Ben territory?  I don't know.  You don't know.  Okay.  And do you know Mr. Richard  Skin?  Richard Skin?  Yes.  Yes, I know him.  Does he have a trapline in the Honcaagh Ben territory?  He is towards Skins Lake, not in the area of Honcaagh  Ben.  Okay.  Do you know Steven and Mary Quaw?  Yes.  Do they have a trapline in the Honcaagh Ben territory?  No.  Where  is  their  trapline,   Mrs.  Quaw?  I  don't  know.  But you know that it's not in the Honcaagh Ben  territory?  They got no trapline in Uncha Lake.  Within the boundaries of Goohlaht's territory, known  as the Honcaagh Ben territory, they have a trapline?  No.  How about Tommy Morris, do you know Tommy?  Yes.  Do you know whose house he is in?  Yes, he is Gitdumden Clan like me.  Does he have a trapline in the Honcaagh Ben territory?  Yes.  Do you know if he asks permission of Goohlaht to have 15  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  that trapline?  Not after the government registered them to trap.  Do you know if he asked permission before he had this  registered trapline in the Honcaagh Ben territory?  I don't know.  Do you know a Mr. George Noth?  Come lately.  Pardon me?  He came lately.  What do you mean he came lately, when did he come?  I didn't know he was there until this year.  And he is a non-Indian, isn't he?  Yes.  And he has a trapline in the Honcaagh Ben territory,  does he not?  I am sorry, it's in the Honcaagh Ben  territory, but he is down by Binta Lake, is he not?  No, he is right across from the reserve, he lives  across the reserve.  But it is in the boundary, within the boundaries of  the Goohlaht territory known as Honcaagh Ben?  Yes.  Do you know if Mr. Noth asks permission to be there?  I don't know because he doesn't ask permission.  He  wants the Indian to ask his permission because he  takes traps out from Tommy and whoever traps there.  Tommy's trapline, my brother Thomas.  And did he complain to the game warden? Did they  complain to the game warden?  No.  Bo you know a Mr. Guenther, Ted Guenther?  There is all the white people trapping in there.  I  don't know their names.  Do you know a Mr. Fraser Louie?  Yes.  And he is an Indian person, is he not?  Yes.  Is he in Goohlaht's house?  No.  He probably is.  I don't know.  He is not.  He is not in Goohlaht's house?  Yes, he is my clan.  So he is Gitdumden?  Yes.  Do you know if he asks permission to be in the  territory?  It's his — which place are you talking about?  He has a trapline within the boundaries of the  Goohlaht territory known as Honcaagh Ben, doesn't he? 16  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  No, no.  You say he doesn't?  No.  And Clifford Bennett, do you know a Mr. Bennett?  Clifford Bennett? No.  I know his name but I don't  know him.  Do you know if he has a trapline in the Honcaagh Ben  area?  NO.  No, he doesn't have a trapline?  None that I know of.  Mr. August Meutzner, do you know him?  No.  Do you know if he has a trapline in the Honcaagh Ben  area?  No.  None that I know.  Do you know a Mr. Russell Skilleen?  No.  Not familiar.  Do you know if he has a trapline in the Honcaagh Ben  area?  No.  Do you know a Mrs. Nellie Nooskie?  Nellie Nooskie? Yes.  Do you know if she has a trapline in the Honcaagh Ben  area?  No.  She doesn't have a trapline in the Honcaagh Ben area?  Not that I know of.  Okay.  Do you know a Bob Peebles?  Bob Peebles? Yeah, the name is familiar, the people  are familiar.  Do you know if he has a trapline registered in the  Honcaagh Ben area?  Not that I know of.  Do you know Norman Louie?  Norman Louie? Where does he come from?  I don't know where he comes from. Does he have a  trapline in the Honcaagh Ben area?  No.  Do you know — you don't know if he has a trapline in  the area or are you saying he does not have a  trapline?  In the Uncha area, is that where you're talking about,  the Uncha area?  I am asking about the area that you described in your  affidavit as the Honcaagh Ben area, I am talking about  traplines within the boundaries. 17  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Within the boundaries, yes.  In that area.  Correction there.  What would you like to correct?  Louie, what's his name? Fraser Louie, yes.  Fraser Louie has a trapline in the area?  Yes.  And you told me Fraser Louie is not in Goohlaht's  house?  Is not.  Is he in Goohlaht's house, Fraser Louie?  No.  Do you know if he asks permission of Goohlaht to trap  in her area?  I don't know how to describe it.  Because Fraser  Louie's grandmother came from that area in — where  Mary and Thomas are living now and he owns a trapline  around there.  So you say he has a right through his grandmother, is  that what you're telling me?  Yes.  To be there.  Do you know what clan his grandmother  was in?  Well, when I say that they sit with me, when I sit at  a feast they sit with me so they are probably in the  same clan as I am in.  So they are in the Gitdumden Clan?  Yes.  Is his grandmother Gitdumden?  Yes.  So he  is Gitdumden but he  is trapping  in the Gilseyhu  area?  He is not trapping, he leases a trapline to a white  man down there.  So he leases it to a white man and the white man uses  the area?  Yes.  What about Norman Louie then?  Norman Louie?  Do you know him?  I don't know the name right away.  And you don't know if he has a trapline in the  Honcaagh Ben area then?  The Honcaagh Ben or the boundary?  I mean within the boundary of that whole area?  None that I know of.  Okay.  Mrs. Quaw, when I describe the area as Honcaagh 18  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Ben I am not just referring to Honcaagh Ben itself, I  am referring to that whole area within the boundary  that you described in the affidavit that's an exhibit  in this trial.  Hm-hmm.  Okay?  Yes.  And Patrick Issac junior, do you know Patrick Isaac?  Patrick Isaac? Yes.  And does he have a trapline in the Goohlaht area that  you have described?  None that I know of.  None that you know of?  No.  Do you know Spurgeon Sherwood?  No.  Do you know if he has a trapline in the area that you  have described?  No.  Do you know Elwood Shaffer?  No.  And do you know if he has had a trapline in the area  you described in your affidavit?  No.  Do you know a Toby Charlie?  Toby Charlie? Yes.  And do you know if he has a trapline in the area that  you described in your affidavit?  No.  None that I know of.  Okay.  And your brother, Thomas K. Morris, has a  trapline in the Honcaagh Ben area; that's correct,  isn't it?  Yes.  And do you know if he got the right to this trapline  through your father?  Through the — he probably has because he is my  father's son.  But your brother is in the Gitdumden Clan, isn't he?  Yeah.  Do you know about the Wet'suwet'en law which allows a  son to trap in his father's territory?  Yes.  Do you?  Is that Neg'edeld'es?  Neg'edeld'es?       Yes,   I  know.  I thought I said that so well.  That's if you're married into a Gilseyhu Clan, and  that will be just like — what do you call it? Just 19  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  like my brother married into Gilseyhu so my brother is  Neg'edeld'es.  Your brother is married to a Gilseyhu woman?  Yes.  Is that how he got the right to trap in the Goohlaht  area?  Well, the one — he probably will describe it better  than me.  Okay.  About the Neg'edeld'es right, that is a right  which dies with the father, when the father dies, does  that right die as well?  No.  No?  No.  How long does it last, Mrs. Quaw? Perhaps you can  explain.  Forever.  So if the right to use the territory is gained through  the father then the sons then have the right to trap  in the father's territory, is that how it works?  Well, all the children are on their mother's side.  Yes.  The children have the right to trap, they are  part of their mother's clan, isn't that correct?  Yes.  And they, of course, can trap in the territory that  goes to their mother's clan, right? Do they have a  right to trap in their father's territory through  Neg'edeld'es?  Yes.  "They do?  Yes.  Does that right last forever then?  Yes.  So when the father dies the children can continue to  trap in the father's territory?  Yes.  Do you know Johnny Mack or did you know Johnny Mack?  He is now deceased.  I heard his name.  Do you know his chief's name?  I was little when I heard his name but I wouldn't know  his chief's name.  His chief's name, forgive me, is Klo urn Kuhn?  Klo urn Kuhn.  Thank you.  And Mr. Mack died quite recently.  Do you  know if Klo urn Kuhn had a territory?  They are our neighbours. 20  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  They are neighbours of the Goohlaht Honcaagh Ben  territory?  Yes.  Do you know that Klo urn Kuhn claimed Uncha and Binta  lakes in 1987?  No.  And does —  Klo urn Kuhn, they are neighbours, as I say.  And you didn't know then that Klo urn Kuhn said that  Uncha and Binta lakes were in his territory?  No.  Did you ever talk to Johnny Mack about his territory?  NO.  When did he go on the trip with your father in  Honcaagh Ben in which he described the names of the  territory? The names of the features in the  territory, do you know when that trip took place?  It continuously — not only at one trip, all our lives  he mentions names and places.  Do you know when the last trip that you took with your  father in the Honcaagh Ben territory took place before  he died?  Before he died?  Yes.  About a couple of years before he died.  So about 1971?  Yes.  And did you know Johnny Mack died in 1988?  No.  Did you know that he swore an affidavit, he answered a  question in 1987, in which he said he owned Uncha and  Binta lakes?  No.  You didn't know that.  Are you a Carrier person?  Yes.  Was your father a Carrier person?  Yes.  Was he also a Carrier-Sekani?  No, he was Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en.  And your mother, was she a Carrier-Sekani?  I don't know what you call Sekani but she was Carrier  from Cheslatta.  A Carrier from Cheslatta.  Okay. What about your  sisters and your brother, are they Carrier people?  Yes.  Are you a member of the Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council?  I was but we are transferring to Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en, 21  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  April 1st of '89.  Why are you doing that?  I belong to Nee tah ben now.  And Nee tah ben — sorry, go ahead.  Is Nee tah ben  part of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council?  Yes, now.  Are you aware of a land claim that the Carrier people  have made to the federal government?  Yes.  Do you know where the area is that they have claimed?  Yes.  Can you tell me where that area is?  You mean the Uncha area?  Yes.  Yes, I have got it right down there.  So you tell me that — are you telling me then that  the Uncha area is claimed by the Carrier people?  By the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en.  By the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en. Do you know if the  Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council has made a claim to land  in the Uncha Lake area?  None that I know of.  None that you know of.  Do you know about a meeting that took place in  Burns Lake in 1987 between the Gitksan-Wet*suwet'en  Tribal Council and the Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council?  They had a meeting and I learned of it there.  But you weren't —  I wasn't there.  You weren't at the meeting?  No.  How did you learn of the meeting?  My sister-in-law.  Who is your sister-in-law?  Mary Jane, Thomas's wife.  And Mary Jane attended the meeting, had she?  No, just heard about it.  Do you know what the purpose of that meeting was?  Land claim overlapping.  What do you mean by land claim overlapping?  I mean they claimed some land into the Wet'suwet'en  area.  The Carrier-Sekani people claimed some land into the  Wet'suwet'en area, is that what you mean?  Yes.  Do you know the result of that meeting?  I don't know. 22  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  Are you currently a plaintiff in this case, Mrs. Quaw?  No.  And how did you come to give evidence in this case?  I was a witness because my dad is Laksilyu in Goohlaht  house, House of Goohlaht.  And did someone ask you to give evidence?  Yes.  And who is that person?  Is it someone that was at  this tribal —  Marvin George, yes.  Marvin George?  Yes.  And did you prepare this affidavit that you signed  with Marvin George's assistance?  Yes.  I see.  And did he come to speak to you about your  territory?  No.  No, he didn't?  No.  How did he learn about your territory to prepare this  affidavit?  I described it.  You described it?  Yes.  And when — where did you describe it to him?  At the Nee tah ben band office.  So he called you and he met you at the Nee tah ben  office?  Yes.  Did he present you at your first meeting with a  document that looked like this?  Yes.  And did he read it to you?  Yes.  And it contained a description of territory, in the  document that he showed you?  Well, what I described he put it on the paper.  He took notes of that first meeting with you, did he?  Yes.  And he wrote down your description?  My description, yes.  Then did you meet with him again?  No. Just this one time.  Just one time.  That time that you met him, Mrs. Quaw,  did he show you a document that looked like this  document? 23  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Yes.  So he had that ready for you at that first meeting?  No.  Okay.  Let's go through it again.  He met with you at the Nee tah ben band office, and  you described your territory to him; is that correct?  Yes.  And he took notes of it?  Not my territory, my dad's territory.  Gilseyhu, his  name is —  I am sorry, I am not trying to attribute the territory  as belonging to you, I am simply trying to understand  how you described it.  So forgive me if I call it your  territory.  Yes.  You met with Marvin George and you described the  Goohlaht territory that your father used; is that  correct?  Right.  And did he take notes of that description?  Yes.  And he took notes of the interview with you?  Yes.  He did.  And then did he meet with you a second time?  NO.  So, you gave him the description and then you met with  a lawyer who took your signature; is that right?  Yes.  And you signed the document that looked — that is  this document? You signed this document, this is your  signature?  Yes.  And at the time you signed this document, did you read  through it?  Yes.  And you did read through it in English, of course?  Yes.  And did you have someone there to explain the names to  you in Wet'suwet'en?  Oh, yes.  There was a translator present?  Yes.  And did you make any corrections to the document at  that time?  Yes, I corrected this first — like my own  description, like.  I corrected my mother was not a  hereditary chief and all that. And it was my 24  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  grandmother's name is Thallah.  So, you corrected this document at the time you signed  it?  Yes.  But the correction wasn't made to the affidavit at the  time you signed it?  I don't understand.  Okay.  At the time that you signed this document, it's  the same as yours — you signed it in front of a  lawyer named Shirley Meldrum; is that correct?  Yes.  And when you signed this document in front of Miss  Meldrum, did you tell her that paragraphs one and two  were wrong?  Right.  You told her at that time?  Yes.  That was in the 28th day of some month, which is not  mentioned.  Do you remember when you signed it?  August.  Was it in August of '88? Okay, 28th day of July, it  was July 28th.  Yes.  At that time you told Miss Meldrum that these two  paragraphs were incorrect; is that correct?  Right.  But she didn't correct it at the time?  No.  So you swore the affidavit as it read before we made  the corrections?  Correction there —  These corrections that you have explained to us  today —  Yes, before I signed the document, these corrections,I  told about these corrections.  You told Shirley Meldrum?  Yes.  But these corrections weren't made on the document at  the time you signed it?  No.  Whose information was this that was incorrect, did you  give this information first to Mr. George that you  were a Cheslatta hereditary chief?  He misunderstood because I just mentioned that I came  from Cheslatta and my grandmother's name is Thallah,  and to his understanding if an Indian got a name,  well, they had to be a chief before then.  So I guess 25  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  that's why it's written like a hereditary chief.  So, it was his misunderstanding of your evidence?  Hm-hmm.  As far as you know, that resulted in these mistakes?  Yes.  Did Mr. George have a translator with him at the time  you met with him at the Nee tah ben office?  Oh, yeah.  John was there.  Joan?  John.  Jerico.  Did anyone else besides you describe the Honcaagh Ben  territory to Mr. George?  My brother, Thomas K. Morris.  I see. Was he present at that meeting with Mr.  George?  No.  When did Mr. Morris describe the Honcaagh Ben  territory to Mr. George?  Mr. George is on a field trip because everybody's not  present at the same location.  Okay.  And of course Mr. Morris is here today?  Yes.  Are you related to Lucy Namox?  Not that I know.  My dad is.  And how was your dad related to Lucy Namox?  Come from the same clan in the same house.  But there is no relation other than through the clan,  he is not a cousin or an uncle or a relation like  that, is he?  There has to be a relation because they all come from  the same clan.  So are all the people in a clan blood relations?  Yes.  Did you discuss the Honcaagh Ben territory with Lucy  Namox?  No.  To the best of your knowledge, did Lucy Namox ever  travel to the Honcaagh Ben area?  Yes.  When was that?  Oh, I don't recall.  I wasn't present when she came  around in the time she gave permission for us to  witness.  How were you aware that she came to the Honcaagh Ben  territory?  The band office.  Pardon me? 26  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  The band office.  There is a bookkeeper and there is  band councillors and she went there. And I wasn't  present.  I see. You mean she didn't travel around the  territory, she came just to the Nee tah ben band  office; is that correct?  Yes.  Pardon me? Sorry.  I wasn't present, I don't know when she travelled  around.  All I know is that she went to the band  office.  So you don't know if she has been to the Honcaagh Ben  territory to go around it? You don't know that?  Yes, I know she has been there.  You know she has been to the band office?  Yes.  But you're not aware of what else she did on that  trip, are you?  I am not aware of what she did.  On that trip to the band office you're not aware of  what else she did?  Well, she did see the band members, like my brother  there.  Have you ever heard anyone describe the Honcaagh Ben  territory in the feast?  In the feast? No.  You have, what, 13 children, Mrs. Quaw?  Yes.  What house are they in?  They belong to Stoney Creek so nobody's got a house  out there.  They probably have.  But don't they take their clan membership through you  as their mother?  Yes, only they have two clans.  They don't have a clan  like we do around here, we have Gitdumden and  Gilseyhu, Laksilyu, them they just have Noolkie Lake  and Tacha Lake, that's two lakes connecting, between  the — Stoney Creek lies between the two lakes and  they take their names by the two lakes only.  Okay.  Isn't it the Wet'suwet'en law that they take  their clan membership from you though?  Yes.  So are they not members of the Gitdumden Clan?  Oh, yeah. Well, if they travel this way they are  Gitdumden and if they stay in they are Gitdumden and  if they stay in Stoney Creek they are Tacha Lake.  Do you know if any of your children have attended any 27  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  feasts in the claim area?  No.  They have not attended any feasts?  No.  Do any of your children hunt or trap in the Honcaagh  Ben area?  No.  Your stepmother, Veronica Morris, lived in the  Honcaagh Ben area, didn't she?  Yes.  And she lived on territory that was purchased for the  band with money she received as compensation for the  Alcan flooding; is that correct?  I believe it was exchanged land because she never  received any money, none that I know of.  The only  place I know she is — she lived on that land where  she got exchange from the Alcan for her territory  where she came from Cheslatta, well she got this land.  That's where she lived and died.  Okay. Do you know what clan Veronica was in?  The same clan as me, Gitdumden.  Gitdumden?  Yes.  Did she have permission from Lucy Namox to live in the  Honcaagh Ben area?  You have got creeks in there because it's not in the  Uncha Lake, or in the boundary.  Within the boundaries of that area?  Yeah.  I don't think the Alcan put them there and it's  got nothing to do with Lucy Namox.  Do you know a Jimmy Andrews, Mrs. Quaw?  Yes.  Do you know what clan he is in?  I think he is Laksilyu.  He is not Gilseyhu in any case, is he?  No.  Do you know that your brother has said at one time  that Mr. Andrews owns Binta Lake?  He probably does, because he is older than I am.  He is what? Beg your pardon?  An older person than I am.  Do you remember your father telling you that he wanted  to leave his share of the trapline that he shared with  Steven to your sister Nancy and to her son, Sylvester?  I had a recollection of that.  It was mentioned to me  when I was in Stoney Creek.  And who mentioned it to you? 28  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  My sister, Nancy.  She is deceased now.  Is that in accordance with your tradition for your  father to leave the trapline to Nancy and to her son?  As a next of kin.  Isn't that the white man law?  Is it your law?  If the father wishes, his wishes be kept.  So it's your law to keep the father's wish on his  death?  Yes.  Is that a traditional Wet'suwet'en law, to keep the  father's wish on his death?  Yes.  Do you know that Lucy Namox answered questions — in  this case — for the provincial government?  No.  You don't know that. Do you know that she prepared a  map of the area which is surrounded by her boundary in  the Honcaagh Ben area?  Oh, yes, I am aware of that but I didn't know she was  in court or whatever.  No, she wasn't in court, Mrs. Quaw, I am sorry if I  misled you.  She prepared some answers to some  questions.  Hm-hmm.  Do you know that she prepared a map of the area?  Yes.  Have you reviewed that map?  I don't know how to read maps.  At the time that Mrs. Namox prepared that  interrogatory, those answers to the questions in 1987,  did you help her with the preparation of the map?  No.  Do you know if the boundary of the area that she  described is the same as the area that you described  in your affidavit?  I wouldn't know what she described but what I  described to George and I had it here.  You know what you described but you're not aware of  what she described as the boundaries of that area; is  that correct?  Right.  Can you tell me who was Goohlaht before Lucy Namox?  Goohlaht was a hereditary chief?  Yes. Do you know who carried that name, Goohlaht,  before Lucy Namox?  I know Goohlaht but I don't know what his birth —  white man name is. 29  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 Q  Do you know where he lived?  2 A  He lived in Uncha Lake area.  3 Q  And do you know when he died?  4 A  No.  5 Q  Do you know when Lucy Namox took the name Goohlaht?  6 A  Recently.  7 Q  Within three or four years?  8 A  I am not aware of.  9 Q  You don't know when she took the name Goohlaht, except  10 that it was recent?  11 A  Yeah.  12 Q  Then you don't know when the former Goohlaht died?  13 A  No.  14 Q  Do you know when your father got the name  15 Tebeeneleegh?  16 A  I — to my knowledge, since I was a child, all my  17 lifetime he had this name.  18 Q  Do you know what the name means?  19 A  Tebeeneleegh, that means — I had it but I —  20 Tebeeneleegh — powerful swimmer.  21 Q  Okay.  Mrs. Quaw, when your father traps for furs, in  22 the Whitesail River area or in the Uncha-Honcaagh Ben  23 area, where did he take his furs to sell?  24 A  He send it away to — down to Edmonton or Regina.  25 Q  He didn't take it —  26 A  Very first, when I first knew he was trapping, you  27 know, when I come to know that he was trapping,  28 sending it away down to Regina and Edmonton and later  29 on when we wants quick cash he sold it to Billy  30 Bickle, Grassy Plains.  31 Q  Did he ever sell any furs to Cyril Shelford's father?  32 A  No, exchange of food and ■— like hay and stuff.  Never  33 sold it, just exchanged.  34 Q  Who was your sister Mary married to?  35 A  Jasper Thomas.  He is deceased.  36 MS. RUSSELL:  Those are all my questions, Mrs. Quaw.  I believe  37 Mr. O'Byrne may have questions for you.  38  3 9    QROSS^EXAMINATION_BY_MRi_QiBYRNE:  40  41 MR. O'BYRNE:  42 Q  For the record, my name is Darrell O'Byrne, and I am  43 appearing as agent for counsel for the Government of  44 British Columbia in this matter.  45 Mrs. Quaw, you will have to excuse my pronunciation  46 for any Wet'suwet'en name, because it's far worse than  47 my friend so I will apologize right now. 30  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  You were asked about the Goohlaht before Lucy  Namox and you said that you don't know when that  person died; is that correct?  That's correct.  Did the previous Goohlaht die in your lifetime?  No.  So he died before you were born?  Probably.  Because — probably died before I was born.  When you first met with Marvin George to discuss the  affidavit that you have here, was there a translator  present at that meeting?  Yes, for the names that I couldn't get, they got some  names that I couldn't pronounce.  Was it the English names you couldn't pronounce?  No, Indian names.  The Wet'suwet'en names?  Yes.  Who was that translator who was present?  John.  John?  John Thomas.  John Thomas?  Yes.  Now, the second time when you swore the affidavit and  you pointed out those corrections to the lawyer,  Shirley Meldrum, was there a translator present at  that time?  Let's see, who was present? Yes.  And what was the translator's name that time?  Marvin.  Marvin?  Marvin George.  Now, did Marvin George translate then the typewritten  words on the papers that you signed?  He didn't have to translate this, only the hard names,  the Indian names.  All right.  So Marvin George translated the Indian  names to English; is that correct?  No.  Did he translate the English names to Indian names?  He translate his own version of the Indian language  and then it comes to my mind that he translate it  different and then I correct them.  Okay.  How many times did you correct Marvin George?  Only on the Indian names.  Did you do that more than once?  Yes. 31  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Did Marvin George come to you twice with pieces of  paper like this written up?  No.  Only once?  Yes.  He didn't have this written down the first time.  Only when he took the — my description, and he took  notes, and then after that you will probably have to  ask me again when I signed this.  All right.  When you gave the description of the  territory that you described here to Marvin George,  did you give him that description in English?  In English and in Indian.  All right.  Was that the Wet'suwet'en language?  Yes.  I just want to be very clear, how many times did you  meet with Marvin George, once or twice?  The first time when I described the territory,  Goohlaht territory, and the second time I did not meet  with him because I just signed this affidavit.  All right. When you signed the affidavit, was there  any translation done of anything on that affidavit?  Translation? We just corrected these first.  And that's — just so we are clear — the two  corrections where you took out "hereditary chiefs" and  "chief" and you pointed out that was your  grandmother's chief's name?  Yes.  Other than that was there any other part of this  affidavit when you signed it translated to you by  anybody?  Translated?  By that I mean from English to Wet'suwet'en or from  Wet'suwet'en to English?  I don't understand.  All right. When you signed this affidavit, did you  read it all over?  Yes.  Did you understand all of it?  Yes.  Did you understand the Indian names that are written  down there in the affidavit?  The spelling was wrong so I had to ask somebody.  Now, who did you ask?  John, John Thomas.  And did you only ask about spellings?  The spellings and the pronunciation.  You asked about spellings and pronunciations, anything 32  7 MS.   MANDELL  8 MR.   O'BYRNE  9 MS.   MANDELL  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 else?  2 A  The — I don't know.  I couldn't remember.  3 Q  All right. When you were being asked questions  4 before, you told us that Lucy Namox came down to the  5 band office and gave you permission to witness, do you  6 remember saying that?  I don't think she said that.  I am working off my notes.  I think that's confusing.  I don't think that's  10 the evidence at all.  11 MR. O'BYRNE:  All right.  I will ask you.  12 Q  Did Lucy Namox come down to the band office and  13 discuss you giving or making this affidavit?  14 A  I was not present when she give her permission.  15 Q  Who — how did you find out she gave her permission?  16 A  There is the band bookkeeper and the councillors and  17 the chief.  18 Q  And did they tell you —  19 A  They all know that.  20 Q  And did they tell you?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  Before you described this land that's in your  23 affidavit, did you talk to Lucy Namox about the land?  24 A  No.  25 Q  You're aware that the House of Lucy Namox has two  26 pieces of land that are side by side in this area, is  27 that correct?  28 A  Yes.  29 Q  And you're aware that your brother Thomas Morris has  30 sworn an affidavit about the piece of land that is  31 adjacent or the area that's adjacent or next to it?  32 A  A piece — could you repeat that?  33 Q  Certainly.  Goohlaht has a territory that is next to  34 the territory you have described in your affidavit,  35 correct?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  And do you know that your brother Thomas Morris has  38 sworn an affidavit about the boundaries of that  39 territory?  40 A  Oh, yeah.  41 Q  Did your father take you on that territory that your  42 brother Thomas swore an affidavit about?  43 A  Oh, yes.  44 Q  And did your father take your brother Thomas on the  45 territory that you swore an affidavit about?  46 A  Yes.  47 Q  Who made the decision that you would swear the 33  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 affidavit about this territory and your orother Thomas  2 Morris would swear the affidavit about the other  3 territory?  4 A  Could you repeat that?  5 Q  Certainly. Who made the decision that you would swear  6 the affidavit about this territory that you described  7 in your affidavit and that your brother Thomas Morris  8 would prepare or swear an affidavit about the other  9 territory that's next to it?  10 A  I don't quite understand.  11 Q  Well, did you talk to Lucy Namox about swearing the  12 affidavit for the territory you described?  13 A  I did not talk to Lucy Namox, Lucy Namox talked to  14 probably Thomas and we were — I came as a witness  15 because I was raised up on Uncha Lake territory by my  16 father and that's how I come to be here.  17 MR. O'BYRNE:  That's all the questions I have.  18  19 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING RECESS)  20  21 EEr^XAMINATION_BY_MSA_MANDELL:  22  23 MS.   MANDELL:  24 Q  Elsie, I get to ask you a few questions now that came  25 about because of the questions that they have asked  26 you.  27 Your mother was Cheslatta; is that right?  28 A  Yes.  29 Q  And you're Cheslatta?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  And it was your father who was Wet'suwet'en?  32 A  Yes.  33 Q  Now, you mentioned that there are some Indian people  34 that are living in the Goohlaht territory, there is  35 some Indian reserves there and the Cheslatta people  36 are now on those reserves; is that correct?  37 A  They exchanged land from Alcan.  3 8 Q  And are you aware that those reserves were set up by  3 9 the Department of Indian affairs around 1952?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  And do you have — do you know whether or not the  42 Cheslatta had any say over whether they got lands  43 there or anywhere else?  44 MS. RUSSELL:  I am going to object.  That didn't come out of my  45 cross-examination.  I didn't ask her about reserves  46 and I don't think that's correct re-direct  47 examination. 34  Elsie Quaw (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 MS. MANDELL:  Off the record.  2 MS. RUSSELL:  No, on the record.  3 MS. MANDELL: Well, you asked her about the others that are  4 living in the area, the other Indians and non-Indians.  5 MS. RUSSELL:  I asked her only that and she said there were  6 other Indian people, not in Goohlaht's house living in  7 the area.  I did not ask her about reserves.  8 MS. MANDELL: Well, those are the Indian reserves.  9 MS. RUSSELL:  Maybe this is one for the Chief Justice to settle.'  10 That's not proper re-examination.  11 MS. MANDELL:  12 Q  You don't have to answer that question. There's been  13 an objection taken to it. """"-  14 You mentioned that at one of the meetings where the  15 affidavit was being prepared you mentioned the people  16 that were present, was it Tommy Morris who was present  17 at that meeting?  18 A  There weren't a lot of people there.  I could not  19 name — look at all of them.  20 Q  Do you remember whether it was Tommy Morris or Thomas  21 K. Morris who was present?  22 A  I don't recall.  23 Q  And do you recall whether or not at the first meeting  24 when Marvin was first in talking to you, whether  25 Alfred Joseph and Richard Overstall were present at  26 that time?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  And that at the second meeting when the affidavit was  29 sworn, a lawyer, Shirley Meldrum, and Marvin George  30 vere present at that time?  31 A  Yes.  32 MS. MANDELL:  I have got no further questions.  33 MS. RUSSELL:  Thank you Mrs. Quaw.  34  35 (Concluded)  36  37 I Hereby certify the foregoing to be  38 a true and accurate transcript of  3 9 the proceedings herein to the best  40 of my skill and ability.  41  42  43 n  44 /U>«£^U  45 «A  46 Wilf Roy ^  47 Official Reporter

Cite

Citation Scheme:

        

Citations by CSL (citeproc-js)

Usage Statistics

Share

Embed

Customize your widget with the following options, then copy and paste the code below into the HTML of your page to embed this item in your website.
                        
                            <div id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidgetDisplay">
                            <script id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidget"
                            src="{[{embed.src}]}"
                            data-item="{[{embed.item}]}"
                            data-collection="{[{embed.collection}]}"
                            data-metadata="{[{embed.showMetadata}]}"
                            data-width="{[{embed.width}]}"
                            async >
                            </script>
                            </div>
                        
                    
IIIF logo Our image viewer uses the IIIF 2.0 standard. To load this item in other compatible viewers, use this url:
http://iiif.library.ubc.ca/presentation/cdm.delgamuukw.1-0018488/manifest

Comment

Related Items