Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Mary Moore British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 30, 1988

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 1  <3n tilt £&uprtmt dnurt of JUritisIf Calumbia  Na 084 3  Smithers Registry  Smithers B. C.  November 30, 1986  BETWEEN:  AND;  DELGAMUUKW, *lso know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN" IN RIGHT OF  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Plaintiffs;  THE  Defendants  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  MARY MOORE  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD., 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET. WJCOIMR. RC V8E 4H4 (604) 039-1W4 <3fn tilt gtuprtmt Court of ^rtttsl} Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  Smithers, B. C.  November 30, 1988  BETWEEN;  AND  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants,  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  MARY MOORE  M.D. ADAMS, Esq.  MS. L. RUSSELL  MS. T.A. SIGURDSON  Appearing for the Plaintiffs  Appearing for the Defendant  Attorney-General for Canada  Appearing for the Defendant  Province of British Columbia  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.. 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET, \ANCOUVER. EC V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1068 1  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 VANCOUVER, B.C.  2 November  30,   1988  3  4 MARY MOORE,  a witness called on behalf of  the  5 Plaintiffs,  having  been  duly  sworn,   testifies  6 as  follows  7  8 SADIE HOWARD, Interpreter:  Previously sworn  9  10 MS. SIGURDSON:  Mrs. Moore, my name is Thora Sigurdson, I'm the  11 lawyer for the Province.  I would like to ask you a  12 few questions.  13 MR. ADAMS:  Just before you start, maybe we should introduce  14 ourselves on the record.  Murray Adams for the  15 Plaintiffs.  16 MS. RUSSELL:  My name is Loryl Russell.  I'm acting for the  17 Attorney General of Canda.  18 MR. ADAMS:  Secondly, Miss Moore is able to speak both Gitksan  19 and English.  Gitksan is her first language, and she  20 will be testifying in Gitksan and Sadie Howard is here  21 to interpret for her and has been previously sworn as  22 an interpreter in these proceedings, and Miss Howard  23 will serve as a word speller too.  24 MS. SIGURDSON:  25 Q  Mrs. Moore, you have sworn an affidavit in these  26 proceedings describing a territory claimed by  27 Luutkudziiwas.  I'm showing you an affidavit that has  28 been marked Exhibit 593 at trial and ask if that is  29 your signature?  30 A  Yes.  That's my signature.  31 Q  When you signed the affidavit was it read to you?  32 A  Yes.  33 Q  In English or in Gitksan?  34 A  In English.  35 Q  And was any part of it translated, or was it all in  36 English?  37 A  No.  3 8 MS. SIGURDSON:  So your understanding of English is such that  39 you can understand everything in that affidavit  40 without requiring translation?  41 THE TRANSLATOR:  Well, she began saying that Neil did parts of  42 it in Gitksan, but they didn't really have  43 interpreter.  44 MS. SIGURDSON:  45 Q  So Neil John Sterritt read part of it to you in  46 Gitksan?  47 A  No.  She just read the thing to me, Neil can't speak. 2  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  What did Neil read to you from the affidavit?  You mean before I signed it?  Yes.  The one that I was supposed to sign about Ben being  the head chief of our house and that he is holding  the — our lands.  Anything else?  That's it.  He told me to sign it after.  What year were you born, please?  1924.  And did you go to school?  Yes.  Where was that, please?  Hazelton Day School in Edmonton.  When did you live in Edmonton?  I was about seven, I went two years.  You were married to Steven Moore?  Yes.  And he was a member of the House of Wii Kaax?  Yes.  You have ten children?  Yes.  When was your oldest child born?  1946.  And when was your youngest child born?  I forgotten.  How old is George now? George was the  last one — oh, Sonia, 25 years now.  And that was Norman Moore, your son —  Yes.  — who helped you with that answer? You live in  Gitanmaax?  Yes, yes.  On the reserve?  On the reserve.  Aside from the time you lived in Edmonton, have you  lived anywhere else?  No. We go down to Port Edward and go — stay in the  cannery — I mean work in the canneries, we stay there  during the winter when we — one year, but I forgot  the year when we were there.  Was it many years?  Yes.  It was about three years.  Did your husband work at the coast more years than  three?  Yes.  He fished and he worked in the canneries.  Do you know how long he worked at the coast?  I can't say, but he worked about half of the time and 3  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 then he did logging too.  2 Q Where did your husband log?  3 A Fort Hansen.  4 Q I'm not sure where that is; could you just tell me  5 where that is?  6 A In Hazelton.  7 Q And where did he cut trees?  8 A Just at any pole camp that he goes to.  9 Q On whose territory did he log?  10 A I remember he logged for Ben Woods while he did poles,  11 and Charlie Sterritt and Solomon Marsden.  12 Q Do you know how many years your husband logged?  13 A He started ever since he was 15 years old.  14 Q You hold the name Sek'm Luu?  15 A Yes.  16 Q Is that a hereditary chief's name?  17 A Yes.  18 Q Or a high chief's name?  19 A Hereditary chief.  20 Q Are you one of the people who because of the name you  2.1 have can speak for Luutkudziiwas?  22 A Yes.  23 Q Is your name the same as Luu Ska? I understand as Luu  24 Ska you would sit beside Luutkudziiwas at a feast, is  25 that correct?  26 A No.  27 Q Who sits beside Luutkudziiwas at a feast?  28 A My son, Lester.  29 Q What name does he hold?  30 A Xsimwitsin.  31 Q All right.  And who sits beside Xsimwitsin?  32 A Luutkudziiwas.  33 Q Let me make sure I have this straight.  Luutkudziiwas  34 sits in the middle of the table, is that correct?  35 A Just about in the middle.  36 Q And beside Luutkudziiwas sits Xsimwitsin?  37 A Yes.  38 Q And beside Xsimwitsin on the other side of Xsimwitsin  39 sits?  40 A Wii Kaax..  41 Q And who holds that name?  42 A Vera — Vera Wale.  43 Q And who sits next to Vera Wale?  44 A 'Noola.  45 Q And who holds the name 'Noola today?  46 A He does, Norman.  47 Q Your son, Norman Moore? Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  And beside your son Norman, who sits — you're not  3 quite finished with that yet, but I think Sarah is  4 supposed to be sitting there, Sii bilaatw. What is  5 Sarah's last name, please?  6 A  Marshall.  7 Q  All right. Who holds the name Luutkudziiwas today?  8 A  Ben McKenzie.  I keep on getting mixed up with  9 Xsimwitsin and Luutkudziiwas.  It's Luutkudziiwas  10 that's the head chief now.  11 Q  All right.  It used to be that it was Xsimwitsin was  12 the head chief, was it not?  13 A  Yes, yes.  He was, but then Joshua became ill, you  14 know, Luutkudziiwas —  15 MS. SIGURDSON:  How long has Ben McKenzie been the acting head  16 chief?  17 MR. ADAMS:  I don't think she said that he was the acting head  18 chief, she said he had the name Luutkudziiwas and he  19 was the head chief.  20 MS. SIGURDSON:  21 Q  That's right, the head chief used to be Xsimwitsin?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  But since Joshua Campbell became ill Ben McKenzie  24 became the head of the house?  25 A  Yes.  He spoke for us.  26 Q      Yes.     How long has Ben been acting  or  speaking  for  the  27 house?  28 A  Quite a few years.  29 Q  And Ben himself is quite ill now, I understand?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  How long has he been ill?  32 A  I don't know about Ben, I don't know how long now.  33 Q  You say in your affidavit that you obtained permission  34 from Ben McKenzie to describe the territories of  35 Luutkudziiwas?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  When did you do that, please?  38 A  About a year now.  3 9 Q  So that would have been last — around last Christmas  40 time; is that about right?  41 A  About a year last June.  42 Q  So that would be June 1987. Did you speak to Ben in  43 person? Did you go to visit Ben to talk to him about  44 this?  45 A  No.  He just sent the papers and I signed it.  46 Q  Which papers did he send you?  47 A  That's the one when I was — he was saying that I had 5  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 permission to speak for him, you know, about the land.  2 Q Was it a typed letter or document?  3 A Yes.  4 MS. SIGURDSON:  Mr. Adams, perhaps you could assist me, is there  5 a listed document she's referring to?  6 MR. ADAMS:  I have no idea.  7 MS. SIGURDSON:  8 Q Do you  still   have  this letter?  9 A No.  10 Q Who did you give it to?  11 A I think Neil still has it.  12 Q And that's Neil Sterritt, Jr.?  13 A Yes.  14 MS. SIGURDSON:  Well, Mr. Adams, perhaps you could canvass the  15 issue with Mr. Sterritt and see if that can be  16 produced.  17 MR. ADAMS:  I will inquire.  18 MS. SIGURDSON:  19 Q Could you tell me what this — was it a letter?  20 A Yes. Just a short letter that says — that I was to  21 speak of the land for him.  22 Q And for him, that's Ben McKenzie?  23 A Luu skeexs and our land across there, across the river  24 there.  25 Q You were supposed to speak about the territory at  26 Hazelton Creek and about the territory at Suskwa?  27 A Yes.  I know about Suskwa, but Arthur felt he knew  28 more about Suskwa than I did, so that's the reason why  29 they took him to do that.  30 Q But in this letter Mr. Mackenzie suggested that you  31 describe the territory at Suskwa as well?  32 A Yes.  33 Q Do you recall who signed the letter? Was it signed by  34 Mr. Sterritt?  35 A No.  I didn't even look, I just signed it when they  36 asked me to sign it.  37 Q When did you last see Ben Mackenzie?  38 A On his birthday, a year now.  39 Q Did you talk to him about the territory at Hazelton  40 creek?  41 A No.  He wasn't feeling good yet already at that time  42 when we attended his birthday.  43 Q And he doesn't know much about the Hazelton Creek  44 territory, I understand, is that correct?  45 A Yes.  46 Q He was rarely there?  47 A Um-hum. 6  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 Q  Have you talked to other people about the territory at  2 Hazelton creek?  3 A  No.  4 Q  Have you talked to Steve Robinson?  5 A  Not really.  6 Q  When you say "not really", have you talked to Steve  7 Robinson about the territory?  8 A  I phoned him at one time, and then he said he was  9 going to — I guess he was talking to Neil about it,  10 you know, because he knows more about all the lands,  11 and that's all, I don't know what he did after that.  12 Q  Have you talked to anybody else about the territory of  13 Luutkudziiwas at Hazelton Creek?  14 A  I was practically raised in Cedar Creek because of  15 summer and my grandparents took me over there, so I  16 always talked with Lii ghle hlam, my other  17 grandmother.  In Indian we called them grandmother.  18 Q  Could you tell me her English name?  19 A  Martha Brown.  20 Q  Is that Martha Alice Brown?  21 A  I don't know, I just know her by Martha Brown.  22 Q  And could you tell me her Indian name again?  23 A  Lii ghle hlam.  24 MS. SIGURDSON:  Perhaps I could have the spelling of that?  25 THE INTERPRETER:  She had the name at that time before Vera,  26 it's the same name as Vera, L-I-I space G-H-L-E space  27 H-L-A-M.  28 MS. SIGURDSON:  29 Q  Thank you.  Before we talk about your territory at  30 Hazelton Creek, you say you also know about the  31 territory of Luutkudziiwas on the Suskwa River?  32 A  Yes.  33 Q  Is that territory often called the Madii Lii  34 territory?  35 A  Yes.  36 Q  And you spoke to Neil Sterritt about the territory at  37 Madii Lii as well as the Hazelton Creek territory?  38 A  Yes.  39 Q  All right.  Have you ever held the name, and the  40 spelling I have is P-A-A space L-A-S-T, Paa Last?  41 A  Spaa'laast, supposed to be.  42 THE TRANSLATOR:  S-P-A-A' L-A-A-S-T.  43 MS. SIGURDSON:  44 Q  Thank you.  I asked because in a paper dated March  45 1987 Neil Sterritt, Jr. mentioned that you gave him  46 information about the territory in the Suskwa River?  47 A  That's my nax nox name. 7  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 Q  Is that a name you still hold?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  In his paper Mr. Sterritt writes a description of the  4 territory at Luutkudziiwas, and I would like to talk  5 to you about it, because he says Paa laast, and that's  6 supposed to be Spaa' Laast?  7 A  Yes.  8 MR. ADAMS:  Sorry, where are you?  9 MS. SIGURDSON:  10 Q  The last page of the extract half-way down the last  11 paragraph. Excuse me, I'll start that again.  Mr.  12 Sterritt writes:  13  14 "Paa last (Mary Moore), Wii Baawax (Percy Sterritt),  15 Spookw (Steve Robinson), and Gwi Jenxsim Simoogit  16 (Phillip Turner) have also informed me about this  17 territory."  18  19 And I pause to say he's talking about the Madii Lii  20 territory there?  21 A  Um-hum.  22 Q  23 "These Chiefs and other Gitksan people further  24 informed me and confirmed the evidence which I had  25 received from Luutkudziiwas."  26  27 And you did talk to Mr. Sterritt about the territory  28 of Madii Lii, is that correct?  29 A  Yes.  30 Q  Yes. What I would like to do is read out the  31 description in Mr. Sterritt's paper territory of Madii  32 Lii and ask you if you agree with it. Would it be  33 helpful if I gave you the copy and you can read it  34 while I read it for the court reporter.  It starts  35 here, I'll mark it.  I have marked on this copy the  36 extract, and I will perhaps borrow this and read it  37 out while you're reading it as well.  And the  38 description from Mr. Sterritt's paper reads as  39 follows:  40  41 "Point of commencement is at the confluence  42 of Xsuwii Luu Hlabit (Fifteen Mile Creek) and xsas  43 Goo (Suskwa River). From this point the line  44 runs east along Xsas Goo about twenty miles to the  45 height of land at Suskwa Pass. At Suskwa  46 Pass the line runs north along the height  47 of land about three miles to Tsaa Kee As (French 8  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 Peak), and then west along the height of land about  2 eight miles to Hahla Gyoot (Thoen Mountain).  3 From Hahla Gyoot the line runs north to cross Xsa  4 Hahla Gyoot'm Ando'o (Nichyeskwa Creek) at a point  5 about twelve and a half miles from its  6 confluence with Xsu Gwin Lingiinsxw (Babine River).  7 From Xsa Hahla Gyoot'm Ando'o the line continues  8 about four miles north, then about three miles  9 north-west, then south-west about nine miles  10 along the height of land at the source of the  11 tributaries of Xsa Hahla Gtyoot'm Ando'o to the  12 height of land north of the source of Xsuwii  13 Luu Gesxwit (Natlan Creek)."  14  15 A  Um-hum.  16 Q  And Mr. Sterritt concludes:  17  18 "From this point the line runs west about two and a  19 half miles along the height of land, then south and  20 west about 14 miles to the head-waters of Xsuwii  21 Luu Hlabit, then down Xsuwii Luu Hlabit to point  22 of commencement."  23  24 And that's the end of the description in Mr.  25 Sterritt's paper. Do you agree with that description?  26 A  Yes.  27 Q  This description and the description in your affidavit  28 describe the territory in what is called a metes and  29 bounds description, a line around the territory.  When  30 you think about your territory, is that how you think  31 about your territory?  32 A  Yes.  33 Q  Is it not the case that you would think of the lakes  34 or the creek or the mountain in the territory?  35 A  I used to know the territory by going there.  36 Q  Yes?  37 A  That's by looking at the papers it's kind of different  38 for me, but when I go in — when we used to go there  3 9 when the trail was still there, that's how I  40 remembered it, and we used to pass all those little  41 creeks that were there.  42 Q  Yes.  Mr. Sterritt talked about a mental map.  In your  43 mental map would it not be that you would think about  44 going down a creek and looking at a mountain rather  45 than looking at a line going around that doesn't refer  46 to those or may not refer to those creeks? Perhaps I  47 should rephrase that, I know that was an awkward 9  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 question. Well, no I'll not — about your affidavit,  2 I would like you to help me understand, if you can,  3 how the affidavit came into being. Was the affidavit  4 brought to you to be signed?  5 A Yes.  It was brought to me.  6 Q And who brought it, please?  7 A Neil.  8 Q Anyone else?  9 A And a lawyer.  10 Q Miss Mildrum — oh, pardon me, Gordon Sebastian?  11 A Gordon Sebastian.  12 Q And you have said that no translator came; Miss Howard  13 did not attend?  14 A No.  I was just there by myself. My son, Rod, was  15 there, my oldest son.  16 Q Richard Overstall, do you know Richard —  17 A Richard?  18 Q Overstall?  19 A No.  20 Q Um-hum.  Steve Robinson did not come with you or come  21 with Mr. Sterritt when they brought the affidavit?  22 A No.  23 THE TRANSLATOR:     She wanted to know the name you mentioned,  24 Richard Overstall?  25 A I don't know him.  26 MS. SIGURDSON:  27 Q And did Glen Williams come?  28 A To our place?  29 Q Yes, with Mr. Sterritt?  30 A No.  31 Q Art Ridsdale?  32 A No.  33 Q Ben Mackenzie?  34 A No.  35 Q So only Neil Sterritt?  36 A Neil and —  37 Q And the lawyer?  38 A Yes.  3 9 Q Did they bring a map with them?  40 A No.  41 Q They gave you the affidavit and asked you to read it?  42 A Yes.  43 Q And did you read the whole thing?  44 A Yes.  It's just one sheet of paper like that.  45 Q Well, this affidavit is four pages long. Did you mean  46 four pages?  47 A Um-hum. 10  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 Q  Well —  2 A  This is how Neil described this for me, this here, but  3 the other one that I told you about is just a short  4 one, you know, where it tells about — and I have  5 permission to speak for band.  6 Q  I see.  So Neil Sterritt and the lawyer brought this  7 four-page affidavit for signature?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  I would like to ask you about some of the places in  10 your affidavit.  I'll first ask, however, do different  11 houses of the Gitksan have different names for creeks  12 for the same creek, is that possible?  13 A  Just the same.  14 Q  So all Gitksan houses will call a creek by one name?  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  What is the name of the creek on the northern boundary  17 of your territory just west of the Skeena? There's a  18 creek, but I'm not —  19 A  Xsi amhl lo'op.  20 Q  Is that the name for Burdick Creek?  21 A  Stoney Creek.  22 Q  From my understanding Stoney Creek was on the southern  23 side of your territory on the other end of your  24 territory towards the north towards Kispiox. What is  25 the boundary at that end of your territory?  26 A  They call the creek Xsi moolaa.  27 Q  Have you ever heard it called Sika doak, and the  28 spelling I have is —  29 A  Yes.  I've heard that.  30 Q  Is that the same creek?  31 A  Because it's right in the back.  32 Q  But those two names refer to the same?  33 A  Yeah. But it's called Xsi moolaa.  34 MS. SIGURDSON: Could I have the spelling for that, please?  35 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-S-I space M-O-O-L-A-A.  36 MS. RUSSELL: Could I have the other spelling, please?  37 THE TRANSLATOR:  Sika doak, S-I-K-A space D-O-A-K.  It's also  38 the same as Glen Vowell.  39 MS. RUSSELL:  Thank you.  40 MS. SIGURDSON:  41 Q  And the creek we've been talking about Sika Doak or  42 Xsi moolaa, do you know if the English name is Alipakh  43 Creek?  44 A  I just know it by the Indian name.  45 Q  who owns Xsi moolaa itself?  46 A  That's about a boundary.  47 Q  Do you know the creek or do you just go to the creek? 11  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 A We go by the creek.  2 Q Who was your neighbour on the north on the other side  3 of Xsi moolaa?  4 A Antgulilibix.  5 Q Does Antgulilibix own the creek?  6 A No, I don't think so.  It's just a boundary.  Ours is  7 on this side of the creek, west and east for her.  8 Q Um-hum.  Do you know of a place called An lix taa?  9 A An lix taa?  Isn't that across from Xsi gwin ha'uums?  10 Q I have to ask you that.  11 A I think it is.  12 Q And who owns that, please?  13 A Ax to'o and Haa'k'atw.  14 Q Could I have the spelling for those last two names,  15 please. While we're getting spellings, those two  16 people are members of the House of Luutkudziiwas?  17 A Yes.  18 Q That  is an  island in the middle of the Skeena River?  19 A Not too far from Kispiox Bridge  right across from Xsi  20 gwin ha'uums.  21 Q That's Hazelton Creek?  22 A Um-hum.  23 Q Yes.  Is Vic Mowatt using La Lix ta'a?  24 A Yes.  He's using it.  25 Q And he's Woosimlaxha?  26 A Um-hum.  27 Q He's not supposed to be using it, is that right?  28 A No.  He's Amnigwotxw, that's why he's doing it, he's  29 doing it from his father's side, but —  30 Q You've told us that the neighbour to the north of the  31 Luutkudziiwas territory is Antgulilibix?  32 A Yes.  33 Q In your affidavit you say that Kitsegukla chiefs own  34 territory in the west and south of your territory?  35 A Yes.  36 Q Which chiefs, please?  37 A Gaxsbgabaxs.  3 8 Q And who is the head chief of that house?  39 A Moses Jones is one of them.  40 Q Excuse me, is your son giving you assistance?  41 A Yes.  42 MS. SIGURDSON:  Thank you.  43 MR. ADAMS: Just give your answer.  44 THE TRANSLATOR:  She can't remember.  45 A I know it's Moses Jones.  46 MS. SIGURDSON:  47 Q Thank you.  Did Haakasxw — and the spelling I have is 12  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 H-A-A-K-A-X-W — ever have territory there?  2 A  Who?  3 Q  Haakasxw?  4 A  I don't know. Doesn't sound like the one I know.  5 Q  The English name I have is Larry Wright. Did Larry  6 Wright have territory to the south or west of yours?  7 A  He must have.  I only know about Gaxsbgabaxw and  8 another guy, Moses Jones. I've forgotten his other  9 name.  10 Q  You also say that the Kitwancool chiefs own  11 territories on the west and south of the Hazelton  12 Creek territory. Which chiefs are those, please?  13 A  In Kitwancool?  14 Q  Yes?  15 A  I don't know them, I don't know those people from  16 Kitwancool.  17 Q  In your affidavit you say in paragraph 6:  18  19 "Chiefs from Kitwancool and Kitsegukla own  20 territories on the west and south border of this  21 territory."  22  23 You don't know if Kitwancool chiefs are on the border  24 of your territory?  25 A  Yes. On the other side of the mountain.  26 Q  On the other side of the mountain?  27 A  It's their territory, but I don't know the names.  28 Q  Do they border on your territory, do you share a  29 common border?  30 A  Yes.  31 MS. SIGURDSON: The map that has been marked at trial that was  32 apparently prepared with input from Mr. Sterritt and  33 Mr. George, Marvin George, does not show a Kitwancool  34 territory to the south or west of yours. There is  35 another intervening territory, and that is of  36 Gaxsbgabaxs.  37 MR. ADAMS: Do you have that name to put in front of her?  38 MS. SIGURDSON:  3 9 Q  No, I don't. You're saying that there should be a  40 territory of Kitwancool bordering on yours?  41 A  On the other side of the mountain.  42 Q  Which mountain is that, please?  43 A  That's where our land is, the back of the mountain  44 where ours is.  45 Q  All right.  46 A  That's where Kitwancool is.  47 Q  You will have to give me some help. Do you know the 13  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 name of the mountain Kitwancool is on the back of?  2 A  An damahl.  3 Q  That was your son that gave you that name?  4 A  No.  I forgotten the name of the —  5 Q  Yes.  Norman helped you?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  Perhaps, Mrs. Howard, you can give me the spelling of  8 that name?  9 A  An damahl is right on the top of the mountain.  10 MS. SIGURDSON:  Just one moment, please.  11 THE TRANSLATOR: A-n space D-a-m-a-h-1.  12 MS. SIGURDSON:  13 Q  I'm sorry, Mrs. Moore, I didn't hear part of your  14 answer.  Kitwancool is —  15 A  An damahl is right on top of the mountain that we own.  16 I understand that Kitwancool owns the other side of  17 the mountain.  18 Q  Do you know which chief of the Kitwancool owns that?  19 A  No.  I don't know them.  20 Q  And who told you that the Kitwancool owned the other  21 side?  22 A  Because I know we don't own that.  I know that the  23 Kitwancool own it, but I don't know their names.  24 Q  Do you read maps, Mrs. Moore?  25 A  Hardly.  26 Q  Perhaps you can help me.  Is An damahl west of Glen  27 Vowell?  28 A  Yes.  29 MS. SIGURDSON:  Is it south of a creek called Xsi  30 wilgalibaxs(?), that is the territory claimed by  31 Antgulilibix.  32 MR. ADAMS:  Give me that name to —  33 MS. SIGURDSON:  34 Q  Well, Mrs. Moore, perhaps you can look at this. You  35 say you can barely read maps, but you might be able to  36 understand some of this or help me with some of this.  37 On the right-hand side of the map there is — there is  38 Sigadikh, S-I-G-A-D-I-K-H, and here we have Xsi gwin  39 ha'uums, that's Hazelton Creek?  40 A  Yes.  41 MS. SIGURDSON: And right here on the map it's north of the  42 border drawn of Luutkudziiwas, it looks like there's a  43 mountain called Andamhlxw.  Is that the mountain that  44 you refer to?  45 THE TRANSLATOR: Which way is this map?  46 MS. SIGURDSON:  47 Q  North is as the arrow goes. It's Hazelton here from 14  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 Skeena to Glen Vowell. And if this doesn't make sense  2 to you, please tell me?  3 A  Yes. You've shown me where Xsi gwin ha'uums is — oh,  4 right here, and where is Andamhlxw on here?  5 Q  Well, it's marked at this place right here, which is  6 north of the boundary marked for Luutkudziiwas?  7 A  Um-hum.  8 MR. ADAMS: No. You're asking her where the mountain is, then  9 you're showing her where the mountain is.  10 MS. SIGURDSON:  11 Q  I'm asking Mrs. Moore is where it's marked on this map  12 if it's in accordance with her understanding?  13 A  I don't know where Antgulilibix is in place.  There  14 isn't that — where Andamhlxw, you're asking about, I  15 don't even know Andamhlxw.  16 Q  You know there's a mountain called An damahl, but  17 you're not sure where it is on this map?  18 A  No.  I don't know where it is.  19 Q  Do you know other than the map?  20 A  I know that ours is An damahl on top of our mountain?  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  There is Andamahl and An diimaul.  22 MS. SIGURDSON:  I see, all right.  23 MR. ADAMS:  I just wonder if you could put on the record what  24 map you were showing her.  25 MS. SIGURDSON:  26 Q  Yes. Thank you, I forgot.  I was showing Mrs. Moore  27 the map that was provided with the interrogatories  28 response of Arthur Ridsdale.  It is the map showing  29 the western territory of Luutkudziiwas. Were you  30 aware that Arthur Ridsdale answered some questions,  31 which we call interrogatories, on behalf of Ben  32 Mackenzie because Ben was quite sick?  33 A  Yes.  34 MS. SIGURDSON:  One of the questions that was asked was question  35 80:  36  37 "What is your personal knowledge of:  38 Sub (b) instances of the exercise of such  3 9 governance by the members and their ancestors  40 prior to the commencement of this action."  41  42 And the answer — I would like to read you the answer  43 that Mr. Ridsdale gave on behalf of Mr. Mackenzie.  He  44 says:  45  46 "There was a feast held when Mary Moore's mother  47 died seven or eight years ago. There was also 15  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 a headstone feast six or seven years ago.  There  2 was the making of a map.  All the chiefs were  3 present and Steven Robinson stayed in the territory  4 that went with the name. We also removed nets from  5 fishing sites if we do not know who they belong  6 to."  7  8 Also, in response to question 87, and that question  9 was:  10  11 "What is your personal knowledge of:  12 (a)  the boundaries protected and maintained  13 by the members of your house and their  14 ancestors."  15  16 Mr. Ridsdale replied in part that there was a making  17 of a map at your mother's feast.  18 MR. ADAMS:  Well, no, it doesn't say that.  It says:  19  20 "When Mary Moore's mother died there was a making  21 of a map."  22  23 MS. SIGURDSON:  24 Q  Pardon me, yes, you're absolutely right.  I should  25 read that question — sentence out for clarity.  The  26 answer was — first sentence of the answer was:  27  28 "When Mary Moore's mother died there was a making  29 of a map which identified the territory."  30  31 Were you asked if there was such a map recently?  32 A  I think Neil has all the maps.  33 MS. SIGURDSON:  Well, I don't want to suggest anything wrong, so  34 what I would like to do is read Mr. Grant's letter in  35 response to Mr. Plant's, who asked for the map.  Mr.  36 Grant says:  37  38 "In response to your letter of August 24th, 1988, I  39 wish to confirm I have investigated the existence  40 of the 'map' referred to in the Luutkudziiwas  41 interrogatory questions 80(B) and 87.  42 Apparently, from my investigation there was  43 no physical piece of paper which was presented at  44 the feast.  I have inquired of both Mr. Ridsdale  45 and Mary Moore who was present at the feast with  46 respect to whether any map was present there.  47 Furthermore, it is my understanding that no such 16  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 map exists to the knowledge of any of the persons  2 who I have inquired with respect to this matter.*'  3  4 MR. ADAMS: What's the date of the letter you're reading from,  5 please?  6 MS. SIGURDSON:  This is Mr. Grant's letter of August 26th, 1988.  7 MR. ADAMS: Well, if you're going to challenge the voracity of  8 what Mr. Grant writes in letters between counsel, I  9 think you can take that up with Mr. Grant and before  10 the Chief Justice rather than asking this witness.  11 MS. SIGURDSON:  No.  I'm trying to do just the opposite of that.  12 I didn't want Mrs. Moore to think this hadn't been  13 asked, and I wanted her to understand her counsel's  14 response.  15 MR. ADAMS: So you're not asking a question based on that  16 letter?  17 MS. SIGURDSON:  18 Q  I understand Mr. Grant talked to you about a map and  19 you advised him that there was no such map?  20 A  We don't use maps when we — when we bury our people.  21 The witnesses are there to see what we do in the  22 feasts.  23 Q  Um-hum?  24 A  And that's how come the lands come to us after we put  25 up a feast.  26 Q  Mrs. Moore, do you know Thomas Brown?  27 A  No.  28 Q  The information I have is that he was a husband of  29 Alice Brown, also known as Alice Martha Brown. Do you  30 know Alice Martha Brown?  31 A  I think I know it was Rosie Pierre's mother.  32 Q  Yes. Alice Brown held the name Doo goo gais, and the  33 spelling I have is D-O-0 G-O-0 G-A-I-S?  34 A  Um-hum.  35 Q  And what house is that a name of?  36 A  Doo Goo Gais?  I think it is Doo Goo Gais.  37 Q  Doo Goo Gais has a separate house?  38 A  I don't know about their house.  3 9 Q  Is it correct to say that Doo Goo Gais is a name of  40 the House of Wii' muglusxw?  41 A  Oh, must be the House of Wii1 muglusxw, I don't know.  42 All I know, she's Doo Goo Gais.  43 Q  Do you know that she's a member of the wolf clan?  44 A  Yes.  45 Q  I was informed that Thomas Brown was a member of the  46 owl clan. Do you know the owl clan?  47 A  No. 17  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 Q  Is the owl a crest of the House of Woosimlaxha?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  You have never heard of Thomas Brown being a member of  4 the House of Woosimlaxha?  5 A  No.  6 Q  Are you aware that Thomas Brown registered a trapline  7 around Bell Lake?  8 A  I heard about it.  9 Q  And he registered that line in about 1930?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  And he held that line until he died in about 1950 or  12 1951?  13 A  I don't know what exactly when he died, but then —  14 but I knew he was on land, he was making poles.  15 Q  Were you aware that Thomas Brown left the Bell Lake  16 trapline to his wife Alice Brown, Doo Goo Gais?  17 A  No.  18 Q  Have you seen Alice Brown on the territory?  19 A  No.  20 Q  And you say Alice Brown's daughter is Rosie Pierre?  21 A  No.  22 MR. ADAMS:  Sorry.  Is the territory you're referring to the  23 same as the territory in your affidavit; is that what  24 you mean by territory?  25 MS. SIGURDSON:  26 Q  Yes. Are stories about the Bell Lake area part of the  27 history of your house?  28 A  No.  You mean where we're at? Yes.  29 Q  Have you heard of a legend or a story about the  30 hunting ground at Bell Lake being given to the owl  31 tribe?  3 2 A  No.  33 Q  For four generations in piece?  34 A  No.  35 Q  So if that is part of the history of the House of  36 Luutkudziiwas, it's a history that you don't know  37 about?  38 A  No.  I've never heard about it, my grandmother never  39 told me about that.  40 MS. SIGURDSON:  Can we go off the record for a moment, Mr.  41 Adams?  42 MR. ADAMS:  Sure.  43  44 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  45 (SHORT BREAK TAKEN)  46  47   MS. SIGURDSON:  Mrs. Moore, those are my questions for now. lb  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 What I would like to do at this point is tender as an  2 exhibit for identification in this cross-examination  3 the Public Archives of Canada file about the trapline  4 of Thomas H. Brown.  It is the Attorney General of  5 Canada's document number 10856, and I am proposing to  6 tender it for identification at this point and obtain  7 a certificate from the Public Archives, and I  8 understand Mr. Adams has a comment he would like to  9 make.  10 MR. ADAMS: Just for the record, the witness hasn't been shown  11 any of the documents in this file, hasn't identified  12 any of the documents in this file.  She has answered  13 certain questions with respect to some of the people  14 whose names appear in it, but with that caution I have  15 no objection to it being marked as an exhibit for  16 identification only in this cross-examination.  And I  17 take it it would be Exhibit 1 to travel with the  18 transcript of this examination, is the way we've been  19 doing this.  20 MS. SIGURDSON:  Yes.  21  22 EXHIBIT_i_FOR_IDENTIFICATIQN - Public Archives of  23 Canada file pertaining to the trapline of Thomas H.  24 Brown  25  26 MS. SIGURDSON:  Mrs. Moore, those are all the questions I have.  27 I believe Miss Russell, from Canada, has a few.  28  2 9   CROSS-EXAMINATION_BY_MSa_RUSSELLi  30 Q  Mrs. Moore, I'm a lawyer for the federal government,  31 and I have a few questions for you.  I don't think  32 they will be very long.  33 A  Okay.  34 Q  Mrs. Moore, you've told us about the territory of  35 Luutkudziiwas, which is located immediately west of  36 Gitanmaax; that's correct, isn't it?  37 A  Yes.  38 Q  And this is fairly close to the town of Hazelton?  39 A  Yes.  40 Q  Is it an area that is used by all of the people of  41 Gitanmaax?  42 A  It's an area that we use, it's our hunting ground and  43 trapline.  44 Q      Yes.    And are there good berry patches  in that area?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  And —  47 A  Cranberry patch. 19  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 Q A cranberry patch?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And do the people of Gitanmaax go there to pick  4 cranberries?  5 A My mother takes her friends there.  6 Q Your mother takes her friends there?  7 A My grandmother.  I call her mother because she raised  8 me.  9 Q I see. And do all the people from Gitanmaax go there  10 to pick their cranberries?  11 A Not unless my mother takes them there.  12 Q I see, okay. And you're the daughter of Thomas  13 Wright, are you not?  14 A Yes.  15 Q And his name was Guuhadak?  16 A Guuhadak.  17 Q And did he hold that name?  18 A Yes.  19 MS. RUSSELL: And did he take the name in a feast?  20 MR. ADAMS:  Sorry, just — is there something significant about  21 the term "hold" as opposed to some other version? I  22 think you should make that clear because it may not  23 be —  24 MS. RUSSELL: Well, Mr. Adams, you can do that in redirect.  I  25 think I'm entitled to run my cross-examination.  26 MR. ADAMS:  I'm not trying to run your cross-examination, I'm  27 trying to make sure your question is understood.  28 MS. RUSSELL:  29 Q All right, thank you.  Did he hold that name,  30 Guuhadak?  31 A Yes.  3 2 Q He did? And did he take that name in a feast?  33 A Yes.  34 Q And he died in August of '88, didn't he?  35 A Yes.  36 Q Was there a feast for him at that time?  37 A There was a feast.  3 8 Q And who has taken the name Guuhadak today?  39 A They're still holding it, it's still on hold, Steve  40 Robinson put the feast up.  41 Q I see. And was Guuhadak*s territory described in that  42 feast, Mrs. Moore?  43 A Not yet.  44 Q in the feast that Steve Robinson put up?  45 A Yeah.  46 Q The Guuhadak territory was not described?  47 A Not yet.  I guess when the — when somebody else takes 20  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  the name, that's the time they will do that.  And is that the way Gitksan feasts usually go; if the  name is not passed they don't describe the territory  in the feast?  The reason why is that whoever takes the name is going  to be holding the territories.  What was the kind of feast that was held for your  father?  It was a funeral feast.  I see. Can you tell me, Mrs. Moore, what kind of  foods did you serve at your father's funeral feast?  I was a guest there.  All right. What kind of foods did the clan who put up  the feast —  They made some soup, which we call Indian soup.  What did it contain?  They put in meat, cut up meat, and beef, I mean, they  cut the beef up, and they put carrots and turnips and  all the works, macaroni, very good.  And what other foods did they serve?  They served fried bread, baking powder and they fry  it, or yeast, they fry that.  Um-hum?  And they — they pass around a box of biscuits for  each person, and bread, loaf of bread.  If there's  more bread, they get more for each person, and  berries.  And berries?  Um-hum. And way back they get their own berries, like  huckleberries and blueberries.  And you said "way back". Do you mean a long time ago  when you went to feasts?  Yes, um-hum.  But did they serve berries at your father's?  Yes, they do.  They use huckleberries, you know, when  they pick, but they mix it up with store berries like  pears and peaches. They mix it all up and then they  serve it.  Have you ever gone hunting on the territory that you  described in your affidavit?  Yes.  And when did you go hunting last on that territory?  Just only about a month ago.  A month ago? And what did you hunt for?  Moose. We missed it.  Before you went hunting a month ago, when was the time  before that that you last went hunting? 21  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Every season we go every so often, we keep trying.  Yes.  And when you say "every season", do you mean  you've gone every year that you can remember?  Yes.  All right. And who goes with you, Mrs. Moore?  My sons.  All of your sons?  My husband used to go with me.  I see.  And do you still trap in the area of  Luutkudziiwas?  Yes.  You do? And what do you trap for?  Marten and fisher.  I see.  And did you go trapping last year?  Yes.  And the year before that?  Yes.  And the year before that?  Um-hum.  And when you went with your sons?  Yes.  And did you .fish in the area of Luutkudziiwas?  Yes,  I  did.  Sorry. Where did you fish?  At Xsi gwin ha'uums.  When did you go fishing last?  Last summer.  And before that when did you go fishing?  Every year before that.  Every year?  Yes.  Every year since you you were a child?  Yes.  I grew up at Xsi gwin ha'uums.  I remember my  mother took me there when I was very small, and way  back when I could remember that's when I was there.  And when you've told me about feasts, Mrs. Moore, do  all of your children attend the feasts too?  Yes.  And was your father's feast the last feast you went  to?  We put up our own feast when my uncle died, Joshua  Campbell, that's Xsimwitsin.  When did Mr. Campbell die?  In March.  In March of 1988?  About the 28th of March.  So was your father's feast, or Mr. Campbell's feast 22  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  0  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  the last feast you went to?  Yes — well, I've been going to feasts, like we were  just at — Wii Elaast's feast.  And when was that?  About two weeks ago.  That was the last one I went to.  Do you ever hunt or trap on any territories other than  Luutkudziiwas' territory?  No.  Did your husband trap on Luutkudziiwas' or hunt or  trap on Luutkudziiwas' territory?  Yes.  And did he ask permission to do that?  Yes.  And of whom did he ask that permission?  My mother.  And your mother's name was?  Helen.  Helen? Your mother's English name was Helen Danes  Wright, wasn't it?  Yes.  What was her Indian name?  And Spaa' Laast is her other name.  Spaa' Laast?  Yes.  And that's your nax nox name, isn't it?  Yes, and Sek'm Luu.  And Sek'm Luu?  Sek'm Luu.  And you took your mother's name, Sek'm Luu, didn't  you?  Yes.  Did you take her name at a feast?  Yes.  And did you make a contribution at that feast so that  you could take her name?  I was the one that put the feast up.  Yes. And did you pay money to take that name at the  feast?  Yes.  Do you remember how much you paid to take that name?  I put in a thousand dollars, and then a lot of  material besides it.  Thank you. Can you tell me what the crest of your  husband is?  Frog.  And do you know the adaawk of your house?  Yes. 23  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  re-in chief by Mr. Adams  1 Q  Can you tell me just by maybe giving me a summary of  2 an adawk of your house, just give me a description of  3 what the story is about.  You don't have to tell me  4 the whole adaawk, can you tell me what the adaawk are  5 of your house?  6 A  It's the one of — it is the — is the mountain goats  7 that took the people of T'am lax amit.  That's where  8 we were before.  9 Q  And are there other adaawk of your house?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  Can you give me another example?  12 A  Another one when Luu T'asxw was taken as a prisoner  13 from here and the people that took her was the coast  14 people, like Haida people, Kitimat.  15 Q  And are there any others that you recall at this time?  16 A  The reason why we have that blind frog is because a  17 lady was sitting — an elderly lady was sitting down,  18 our tribe, and then a flying frog came and landed on  19 her hand and she went like that, and she went eech,  20 eech, you know, she went like that and tried to throw  21 that flying frog off her hand.  That's the reason why  22 we have flying frog for our crest.  23 Q  Just a couple of more questions, Mrs. Moore.  Have you  24 ever been employed, Mrs. Moore, outside your home?  25 A  I worked at the hospital.  26 Q  And what hospital was that?  27 A  Wrinch Memorial Hospital.  28 Q  And what period of time was it you worked at the  29 hospital?  30 A  On and off ever since I was young.  31 Q  And --.  32 A  And then I just kept on and then — I don't know how  33 long I worked there, just on and off.  34 Q  Let me see, would it be fair to summarize that to say  35 that from the time you were say 18 you worked there on  36 and off?  37 A  Yes.  38 Q  Until — are you still working there on and off now?  39 A  No.  40 Q  You've finished working there when, ten years ago?  41 A  Yeah.  About ten years ago.  42 MS. RUSSELL:  Those are all the questions I have for you, Mrs.  43 Moore.  Thank you.  44 A  Thank you.  45  46 EErEXAMIMTIQN_IN_CHIEF_BY_MRA_AD^MSi  47 Q  Mrs. Moore, I just have a few questions for you that 24  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Adams  1 come out of the questions you've been asked this  2 morning.  Miss Sigurdson for the Province asked you  3 fairly early on this morning about the places you  4 lived and whether you had lived anywhere else besides  5 Gitanmaax, and you talked about going to Port Edward  6 and working in the canneries. What I wanted to ask  7 you is besides Gitanmaax and Port Edward, is there  8 anywhere else during your life that you've spent a  9 whole summer or a whole winter?  10 A  The pole camps.  Before the children went to school we  11 were mostly at pole camps, that's where we lived.  12 Q  And have you spent a whole season on the territory  13 that's described in your affidavit?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  When would that have been?  16 A  During the summer we stay at Xsi gwin ha'uums and  17 doing our fishing there, putting up our fish.  During  18 the winter we trap on our trapline, and that's where  19 we get our game.  20 Q  Are you able to say how many summers you spent on that  21 territory?  22 A  Every summer.  23 Q  From when to when?  24 A  From early spring, about May, until October.  25 Q  Also in answer to a question from Miss Sigurdson you  26 say you know of a Suskwa territory but Arthur knew  27 more about the Suskwa.  Who was the Arthur you were  28 referring to?  29 A  Arthur Ridsdale.  30 MR. ADAMS:  Miss Sigurdson put in front of you part of Neil John  31 Sterritt's expert report in this litigation, and you  32 remember that was a boundary description of the Suskwa  33 territory and she's asking you about the information  34 that you provided to Neil Sterritt that may or may not  35 have gone into that description, and my question is  36 simply can you recall the nature of the information  37 that you provided Neil Sterritt about that Suskwa  38 territory?  39 MS. SIGURDSON: Well, I object because I don't think I asked the  40 question as you put it to her.  I read the description  41 of Mr. Sterritt and asked if she agreed to it, and she  42 did.  43 MR. ADAMS:  You also asked her if she had provided information  44 to him, and I'm asking what kind of information.  45 MS. SIGURDSON:  All right.  I didn't see that as being connected  46 to Mr. Sterritt's opinion as in the way you were  47 relating it.  I withdraw the objection. 25  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Adams  1  1  MR. ADAMS:  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Do you understand the question?  Yes.  In that I told Neil.  What kind of information did you give him about the  Suskwa territory, is my question?  Oh, it was my grandmother's and my grandfather's  territory, Tom Campbell and Lucy Muldoe, they own the  territory.  Is that what you told Mr. Sterritt?  Yeah. And they had the same mother and the same  father, the two of them, Lucy Muldoe and Tom Campbell.  My mother — my grandmother's name used to be —  maiden name was Campbell, and I told her that — him  that when Tom died, and he had these two names,  Luutkudziiwas and Xsimwitsin, and then mother — I  call her mother, my grandmother, Lucy Muldoe, got Ben  Mackenzie and let him use the other name, and Joshua,  my uncle, the other name, Xsimwitsin, and Ben,  Luutkudziiwas. And on top of that she offered Ben to  go on the land of Suskwa and do his trapping and  hunting there to support his wife and his children,  and then when Ben passes on and it's finished for the  children too. That was said at the feast, at Tom  Campbell's feast.  Miss Russell asked you a question a few minutes ago  about Thomas Wright and she asked you whether he held  the name Guuhadak, and maybe this question could be  translated because I want to make it clear in Gitksan  terms what question I'm asking. Was Thomas Wright  Guuhadak in his own right or was he looking after that  name for someone else, and maybe, Miss Howard, you can  translate that in Gitksan?  It was his name — it was his name, and if you want to  know — do you want to know whose name it was before,  it was Beal Muldoe, my grandfather's name, and then  when he died it was passed onto Thomas Wright, my  father.  Miss. Russell was asking you about the funeral feast  for your father, Thomas Wright, and she asked you what  you served there and you said that you were a guest  there, and my question is who hosted that feast?  Steven Robinson and Wii Kaax.  Steven is Spookw, and  it was Neil Sterritt, Wii Kaax, the one that was here  just a while ago.  That's Neil Sterritt,  Sr.?  Mm—hrom.  And what clan are they from? 26  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Adams  1 A  Lax. Gibuu.  2 Q  What clan did your father belong to?  3 A  Wolf.  4 Q  Miss Russell was asking you about who you hunted and  5 trapped with — no, I'm sorry — yes, she was, and you  6 said that your husband hunted and trapped on  7 Luutkudziiwas* territory, and she asked if your  8 husband had permission to do that and you said yes, he  9 did, and she said from whom, and you said he asked  10 permission from my mother. And then you named Helen  11 Danes Wright?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  My question is was the permission from your natural  14 mother or from your grandmother, who you have said you  15 sometimes call your mother?  16 A  While she was living it was my grandmother, then after  17 she died and then my mother was the one that gave  18 permission to — to my husband to trap.  19 Q  So do I have it right that it was first Lucy Muldoe  20 and then Helen Danes Wright?  21 A  Yes. The reason why I call my grandmother mother is  22 because she raised me, she raised me and Earnest  23 Muldoe together. We were babies when she took us, our  24 grandmother, so that's the reason why we were named  25 Muldoe.  26 MR. ADAMS: And finally, Miss Russell asked you some questions  27 about examples of the adaawk of your House of  28 Luutkudziiwas. And my question is — let me go one at  29 a time through the ones you mentioned. You talked  30 about the adaawk concerning the mountain goats at T'am  31 lax amit, and I just wanted to know, do you have any  32 way of telling us how old that story is?  33 MS. RUSSELL: Mr. Adams, that does not come out of my question,  34 it does not arise out of the examination.  I asked her  35 about the story, she told me that, the age of the  36 story was not raised at all.  37 MR. ADAMS:  38 Q  Well, let me ask another question. Could you tell us  39 how you and from whom you heard that story?  40 A  My grandmother.  41 Q  And that's Lucy Muldoe?  42 A  Yes.  43 Q  Did she tell you where she heard that story?  44 A  From her grandmother.  45 Q  And who was that?  46 A  'Noola.  'Noola was the first chief when they were  47 still in T'am lax amit. 27  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Adams  1 Q  And your grandmother's grandmother was 'Noola?  2 A  Yes.  3 MR. ADAMS:  Is that the same person as the 'Noola who was the  4 first chief of T'am lax amit?  5 MS. RUSSELL:  She's given that evidence, Mr. Adams, and it  6 doesn't arise in any event.  7 MR. ADAMS:  I'm sorry, it does follow from my question and it's  8 not clear to me, and I would be surprised if it's  9 clear to anyone else, the evidence throughout the case  10 that different biological people hold names down  11 through history, and it isn't at all clear whether  12 Lucy Muldoe's grandmother was the chief referred to at  13 T'am lax amit or whether some earlier holder of that  14 name is referred to, and I think I'm entitled to  15 clarify that for the assistance of the court if no one  16 else.  17 MS. RUSSELL: All right, in that case, certainly, but she did say  18 Lucy Muldoe.  Let's just carry on.  Go ahead, Mr.  19 Adams.  20 MR. ADAMS:  21 Q  Do you understand what I'm asking?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  I want to know whether Lucy Muldoe*s grandmother, who  24 you say was 'Noola —  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  Whether she was the person you say was the first chief  27 at T'am lax amit or whether some earlier holder of the  28 name 'Noola?  29 A  Earlier on, my grandmother's ancestors.  It went down  30 to my grandmother's mother too, and then to her, and  31 then way back.  32 Q  The next adaawk that you referred to concerned a woman  33 taken prisoner from here you said by the coast people?  34 A  Yes.  35 Q  Who did you hear that story from?  36 A  My grandmother.  37 Q  Also Lucy Muldoe?  38 A  Yes.  3 9 Q  And did she tell you who she heard that story from?  40 A  From her grandparents.  41 Q  And to save some time, is that the way you heard about  42 all the adaawk that you told Miss Russell about this  43 morning?  44 A  Yes.  She told me everything.  45 MR. ADAMS:  Those are all my questions.  Thank you.  46 MS. RUSSELL:  Thank you.  47 MR. ADAMS:  Thank you, Mrs. Moore. 28  Mary Moore (For Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true  and accurate transcript of the proceedings  herein transcribed to the best of my skill  and ability  Z^^^J--^&2-g<<&2-   Graham D. Parker  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service

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