Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Mary Joseph British Columbia. Supreme Court Dec 7, 1988

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 <3In tilt ¬£>upr*m* Court of ^Srittslj Columbia  Na 084 3  Smithers Registry  December 7, 1988  Smithers, B. C.  BETWEEN:  AND  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Plaintiffs;  THE  Defendants.  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  MARY JOSEPH  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE UD. PO -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET, WWCOUVER, EC V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1088 <3ln tiit ^mpxtxat Court of J^rtttsI] Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  December 7, 1988  Smithers, B. C.  BETWEEN  AND:  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants,  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  MARY JOSEPH  Ms. L. MANDELL  Ms. T.A. SIGURDSON  M.W.W. FREY, Esq.  appearing for the Plaintiffs  appearing for Her Majesty the  Queen in right of the Province  of British Columbia  appearing for the Attorney-  General of Canada  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.. 610 - KJ30 WEST GEORGIA STREET, VANCOUVER. B.Q V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1088 1.  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 SMITHERS, B.C.  2 DECEMBER 7, 1988  3  4 MARY JOSEPH, a witness herein called on behalf  5 of the Plaintiffs, having been duly sworn,  6 testifies as follows:  7  8 GEORGE HOLLAND, Interpreter:  Previously sworn  9  10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FREY:  11 Q Mrs. Joseph, what was your mother's name?  12 A Adelle.  13 Q And what was her last name?  14 A Alexander.  15 Q Adelle Alexander?  16 A Yes.  17 Q And what clan was she in?  18 A Laksamshu.  19 Q And what house was she in?  20 A Saa yex.  21 MR. FREY:  Can I have that, Mr. Mitchell?  22 THE TRANSLATOR:  S-A-A, Y-E-X.  23 MR. FREY:  24 Q Is that the — is that the house of which Smogelgem is  25 the head chief?  26 A Yes.  27 Q And what village did your mother come from?  28 A Moricetown.  29 Q And what was your father's name?  3 0 A Arthur Charles.  31 Q And what clan was he in?  32 A Gitdumden.  33 Q And do you know what house he was in?  34 A He was in Woos' house.  3 5 Q And what village did he come from?  36 A Moricetown.  37 Q And your grandmother was Annie Alexie?  3 8 A Yes.  3 9 Q And what village was she from?  40 A Moricetown.  41 Q Moricetown.  Annie Alexie was not a Gitksan?  42 A Moricetown.  43 Q And she was also in Smogelgem's house?  44 A Yes.  4 5 Q And as far as you know, she was born into Smogelgem's  46 house?  47 A Yes. 2  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  Now, do you know the name of your father's mother?  I was pretty small and I've been trying to find out  and I couldn't find out up to this date.  All right.  Do you know what clan she was in?  Would be in Gitdumden.  She was Woos' woman.  And do you know who your father's father was?  Charlie.  And do you know his clan?  I think he was Laksilyu.  Now, your husband is Stephen Joseph?  Yes.  And is he Gitdumden?  Yes.  And what house?  Also belongs in Woos' house.  Do you have a sister called Elsie?  Yes.  And what is her name?  Skokum Laxha.  What's her last English name, sorry?  Elsie Tom, from second husband.  From her first  marriage she was Elsie Joseph.  And you hold the name of Skokum Halyte?  Yes, Skokum Halyte.  And were you given that name at a feast?  Yes.  And when was that feast?  When my grandmother passed away, Elsie took the name  Skokum Laxha, and she held Skokum Halyte, and that was  when they gave me the name Skokum Halyte.  Do you remember approximately what year that was?  No.  It's been quite awhile.  I can't remember.  Did you — at the feast, did you make a contribution  to get that name?  Yes.  And I know it's a long time ago, but can you remember  how much you contributed?  There was quite a bit.  It was me and Elsie were  combined together.  Do you have any idea how much?  We spend almost $2,000.  And that was — excuse me.  That was cash and goods?  That was in cash and then — and then other goods was  separate.  Now,   is  Skokum Halyte,   that  is  a  chief's name  in  the  House  of   Smogelgem?  Yes. 7  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 Q And Skokum Laxha is a chief's name in the House of  2 Smogelgem?  3 A Yes.  4 Q What are the other chiefs' names in the House of  5 Smogelgem?  6 THE  INTERPRETER:     She  says  there  is  lots of  names but   couldn't  7 recall   them all  at   the moment.  8 MR. FREY:  9 Q Okay.  Well I'm only interested in chiefs' names in  10 the House of Smogelgem, and are there anymore that you  11 can recall today?  12 A It was my grandmother's brother who was Gus ded'a  13 lak'.  14 MR. FREY: Mr. Mitchell, if I can get a spelling for that one?  15 THE TRANSLATOR:  Gus ded'a lak', G-U-S-D-E-D-'-A-L-A-K-'.  16 A And Louie Tommy's wife who was Mis a d'ai.  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  M-I-S-A-D-'-A-I?  18 A There is quite a few of them but them are the ones  19 that I knew of.  20 MR. FREY:  21 Q All right.  And the two names that you've given me are  22 names in the House of Smogelgem?  23 A Yes.  24 Q Is there a house of Smogelgem at Babine as well?  2 5 A I don't know what the situation is up there.  I don't  26 know of any.  27 Q Maybe I shouldn't be using the name Smogelgem.  Is  2 8 there a house of the sun crest at Babine?  29         A Yes, there is some living up there.  3 0 Q Do you know what the crests in the House of Smogelgem  31 are?  32 A Sun and the grouse.  I just remembered that Waadii was  33 my — he was my uncle who passed away.  Steven Morris  34 is the present holder of that name.  35 MR. FREY: I missed the name.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  W-A-A-D-I-I.  37 MR. FREY:  38 Q Is that another name in Smogelgem's house?  39 A Yes.  40 Q Now, when did Leonard George become Smogelgem?  41 A When his Uncle Abraham passed away, that is when he  42 got that name.  43 Q What was Abraham's last name?  44 A Abraham Nikal.  4 5 Q Do you remember approximately what year it was that  46 Len George took the name?  47 A No, I don't remember at all. 4  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 Q  Were you at the feast where Leonard George took the  2 name?  3 A  Yes, I was there.  4 Q  And can you recall how much Leonard George contributed  5 to the feast to get the name?  6 A  All I know is he spent quite a bit.  7 Q  Now, do you know who held the name Smogelgem before  8 Abraham Nikal?  9 A  I think it was McKenzie.  10 Q  Can you remember McKenzie's first name?  11 A  I don't know.  I think they just called him McKenzie.  12 Q  When Abraham Nikal took the name Smogelgem, were you  13 at that feast?  14 A  Yes, I attended.  15 Q  And do you have any idea how long ago that was?  16 A  That was a long time ago.  17 Q  The Tsayu Clan and the Laksamshu Clan, they are now  18 one clan?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  Do you know when that happened, when they combined?  21 A  That was a long time ago.  22 Q  Do you know why they combined?  23 A  There was so many of the people died and there wasn't  24 too many people left on the one side.  25 Q  Do you know an Annie Joseph, Annie Joseph?  I think  26 the answer is no?  27 A  No.  Who is Annie Joseph?  2 8 Q  I'm afraid I don't know.  29    THE INTERPRETER:  Are we off the record?  3 0   MR. FREY:  We can go off, sure.  31 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  32 MR. FREY:  Mr. Holland, perhaps you could just give me the last  33 response.  34 MS. MANDELL:  No.  I told him to tell her if she wants to this  35 doesn't — the reason we just took a break, and it was  36 at the — it was Mrs. Joseph explaining to Mr. Holland  37 that she is feeling heavy.  3 8    THE INTERPRETER:  Faint.  39 MS. MANDELL:  Faint, and that she is worried about blacking out.  40 And there was a discussion as to whether or not she  41 wanted to continue, and she wants to finish today, so  42 we are going to continue on the basis that she is not  43 feeling well, and if she doesn't want to continue that  44 she is going to tell Mr. Holland and we will stop.  45 MR. FREY:  That's fine.  Perhaps I should just state that I am  46 perfectly willing to do this another day or to do it  47 in the morning if that's at all better for Mrs. M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. FREY  Joseph.  But if she wants to go ahead now we'll go  ahead now.  Mrs. Joseph, if you have trouble answering the  questions, you let Mr. — you tell Mr. Holland.  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  MR. FREY:  Mrs. Joseph, have you ever heard that the name Skokum  Halyte was ever a Gitksan name?  Yes.  The name was given to my mother.  It was her  uncle's name.  Was her uncle a Gitksan or a Wet'suwet'en?  G'itnee.  Was Wet'suwet'en, but was married to a  G'itnee.  And who was your uncle?  That was my mother's uncle, Joe Brown.  And just so I've got this right.  Did Joe Brown hold  the name Skokum Halyte?  Could have been.  All I know is that they gave it to  my mother when they were working together.  Now, Joe Brown's wife was a Gitksan.  Do you know her  name?  Mol xun.  Can we have that, Mr. Mitchell.  I think I have it  but —  THE TRANSLATOR:  M-O-L-X-U-N.  MR. FREY:  Q  Do you know what village she was from?  A   Skeena Crossing.  Do you know what clan she was?  I can't recall.  I was pretty young.  She may have  been Laksilyu.  Now, Mrs. Joseph, do you recall swearing an affidavit  in Smithers in May of 19 88?  Yes.  And was the affidavit read to you and translated into  Wet1suwet'en?  Yes.  And who did that?  Translator.  Mr. Holland?  Yes.  And was it translated to you at the same time that you  signed it?  Yes.  And when you signed it, you signed it in front of a  lawyer?  Yes.  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 6  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs]  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  All right.  And I note that on the affidavit that your  name is printed in English.  Can you read English at  all?  No.  Can you read maps at all?  No.  Now, I understand from the affidavit that you now live  in Smithers?  Yes.  When did you move to Smithers?  It was after my husband passed away, that's  approximately 2 0 years ago.  One of the reasons for  moving here was that was at the request of a doctor  who was concerned for my son who was an epileptic, my  son Walter.  Wasn't another reason because your husband had passed  away? Was another reason for moving to Smithers  because your husband had passed away?  Yes.  And where did you live before you moved to Smithers?  We lived out on the territory.  Did you live at Barrett Lake?  Yes.  And is that where you grew up?  Yes, that's where I was born.  Do you know where your husband was born?  Moricetown.  Where did he live before you were married?  I married him when they moved across from Quick —  when they were chased off their land at Quick, and  that is when they moved from there — from there to  Barrett Lake, across a little lake by the roadway,  that is where I met him.  Do you recall meeting with Marvin George in Smithers  in April of this year?  Yes.  And you met with him twice during April?  Yes.  And was Mr.   Holland  at both  of   those meetings?  Yes.  Now, when you met with Marvin George, were you  referring to a map?  I  don't read,   so he just  talked to me.  Do you remember,   did he have a map?  Yes,   he did,   and me,   I  don't read it.  Now,   the  name  of  the  territory about which you   swore  on  the  affidavit,   I'll   have Mr.   Holland read  the  name 7  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 first to help me out.  It's at the top of page 2, Mr.  2 Holland.  3 THE INTERPRETER:  C'edii toostaan.  4 MR. FREY:  5 Q  C'edii toostaan.  Now, is that name the name for both  6 the territory and for McQuarrie Lake?  7 A  I don't know any McQuarrie Lake but I know where  8 C'edii toostaan is.  They name it that because there  9 was a moose horn was laying in the water.  10 Q  Well, is C'edii toostaan, is it the name of the  11 territory or is it the name of the lake or is it both?  12 A  It's the name of the territory also.  13 Q  Now, on your territory just north and east of Grouse  14 Mountain which is Dex Coo.  Can you pronounce that for  15 me, Grouse Mountain is Dex Coo?  16 A  Dex Coo.  17 Q  Dex Coo.  Just north and east of Dex Coo is a large  18 lake.  What is the Gitksan name for that lake —  19 sorry, what is the Wet'suwet'en name for that lake?  20 A  That's the one they call C'edii toostaan.  21 Q  So C'edii toostaan is the name for the large lake?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  Now, there is another lake that is referred to in your  24 affidavit, and I'll give it my attempt and I know that  25 Mr. Holland will correct me.  It's Diiskaak Ben?  26 A  Yes.  27 Q  Now, is that lake to the north and east of C'edii  2 8 toostaan?  29 A  Yes.  3 0 Q  Do you know the English name for that lake?  31 A  No.  Ever since I was a little child I've known these  32 lakes by their Indian name.  33 Q  Now, when you met with Mr. George, would he refer to a  34 Wet'suwet'en name and ask you if you knew that name?  35 MS. MANDELL:  Just a minute.  I think the question is too  36 imprecise.  I mean would he —  37 MR. FREY:  A Wet'suwet'en place name.  3 8   MS. MANDELL:  Where?  Maybe you can put it in a way that is —  39 can be responsive by her.  40 MR. FREY:  41 Q  Well, why don't we give it a try.  When you met with  42 Mr. Marvin George, did he refer you to — or recite  43 Wet'suwet'en place names and ask you if you knew these  44 names?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q       And  I  take  it  that you knew  some of   the names but you  47 didn't  know all   of   the  names? M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  I know most  territorial  of the territory, I know most of the  names, but not precisely all them.  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  There was some of the Wet'suwet'en names that Mr.  A  Q  A  Q  MR. GRANT  FREY:  Q  A  Q  A  mentioned to you that you didn't recognize?  when he identified the names and I knew them.  George  That's  So you can't recall today that there were any names  that he mentioned to you that you couldn't recognize?  Yes, I knew them all.  And for some of the names, did you correct Marvin  George, tell him the right pronunciation?  Yes.  And so the way it went is that Marvin George would  tell you a name and then he would ask you if you  recognize that name, and then he would ask you if that  was on the territory; is that right?  Yes.  I told him about the ones — the one that I  knew.  Now, you were told about the McQuarrie Lake territory  by Bill Nye?  Yes.  But Mary Alexie, because of Bill  sight at early — earlier, we went in  grandmother.  Is Mary Alexie the same person as Annie Alexie or are  those different persons?  It's a younger sister, younger sister to Annie.  Annie — I take it that Mary Alexie has passed away?  Yes.  She passed away not too long after my grandmother passed away.  So in terms of who told you about the boundaries to  the territories, it was Mary Alexie and Annie Alexie  who told you?  Yes.  And did — did Bill Nye ever tell you about the  territory?  Yes.  And did Bill Nye ever take you out on  had he lost his sight by that time?  :  Well, there is two questions.  Just  one.  Nye's loss of  there with my  the territory or  answer the first  Did Bill Nye ever take you out on the territory?  Yes.  And Bill Nye held the chief's name Madeek?  Yes.  We used to — when he lost his sight, me and  Elsie used to lead him around and when we went with  him.  Elsie is your sister? M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  Do you know if your grandmother, Annie Alexie, lived  3 at the territory before she married Bill Nye?  4 THE INTERPRETER:  Mary Alexie?  5 MR. FREY:  6 Q  Annie, Annie Alexie?  7 A  Yes.  Well, mother lived there and that's who she was  8 living with on the territory.  9 Q  So your grandmother grew up on the territory and Bill  10 Nye moved to the territory when he married your  11 grandmother?  12 A  Yes.  13 MR. FREY:  Now, in the affidavit which you swore, I'm now going  14 to refer to paragraph 6 of the affidavit, and Mr.  15 Holland, I would like you to translate the first four  16 lines of that paragraph up to the phrase, "to the  17 southeast is Hagwilnegh.n  In other words, the first  18 sentence and then the first two lines of the  19 surrounding territories.  2 0 You've read that passage to her?  21 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  22 MR. FREY:  23 Q  Now, should the reference to Hagwilnegh, should that  24 be Wah tah keg'ht's?  25 A  Yes.  That would be the house of Wah tah keg'ht's, but  26 Hagwilnegh, they are all together on it.  27 Q  All right.  But can you tell me that — the territory  28 to the southeast, is that the territory of Hagwilnegh  2 9 or is it the territory of Wah tah keg'ht's?  3 0 A  I believe it belongs to the House of Wah tah keg'ht,  31 but the head of — the head of the clan is Hagwilnegh.  32 Q  All right.  So you know it's Laksilyu and today, to  33 the best of your knowledge, it's Wah tah keg'ht's?  34 MS. MANDELL:  All right.  You can ask what — she didn't say  3 5 that, if you are trying to paraphrase what she said.  36 MR. FREY:  I'm talking about the territory.  37 MS. MANDELL:  I understand that.  But if you are trying to  3 8 paraphrase what she just said, I don't think you've  3 9 done i t.  40 MR. FREY:  No.  I understand that she said that the chief of the  41 clan was Hagwilnegh.  42 MS. MANDELL:  All right.  43 MR. FREY:  44 Q  You know that the territory we are talking about is  45 Laksilyu territory.  And today, to the best of your  46 knowledge, that territory is the territory of Wah tah  47 keg'ht? 10  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs!  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 A  Yes.  2 MR. FREY:  Now, when you met with Mr. George, Mr. George made  3 notes of his interview, Annie'm  — I understand that  4 Mr. George didn't write down exactly what you said,  5 but I'm referring to the notes that Mr. George made,  6 if you could just explain that to her.  7 All right.  And one of the references that Mr.  8 George wrote down was to the boundary for — Annie'11  9 spell this word for you, Mr. Holland.  It's — have  10 you got anything to write with?  I'll just spell this  11 out for you, it's G-O-O-H, T-S-E-A-W-H.  12 THE INTERPRETER:  G-O-0?  13 MR. FREY:  H, and then new word, T-S-E-A-W-H.  14 THE INTERPRETER:  T-S-E-A?  15 MR. FREY:  W-H.  16 MS. MANDELL:  I don't see that.  17 MR. FREY:  It's at the top of page 3.  Could you pronounce that  18 word for Miss Joseph?  19 THE INTERPRETER:  Gooh tseawh.  20 MR. FREY:  21 Q  Now, when you had your meeting with Mr. Joseph —  22 MS. MANDELL:  Excuse me, I don't have a copy of this.  23 MR. FREY:  24 Q  I've got a clean copy for you.  It's at the very top  25 of page 3.  26 Now, what we were going over, Mrs. Joseph, was  27 when you met with Mr. George, you referred to the  2 8 boundary for Gooh tseawh?  29 A  Are you talking about Gguhts eekw Bec'eJL taat?  30 MR. FREY:  I'm afraid, Mr. Holland, I don't know that place  31 name.  Are you able to translate the place name that  32 you just stated to me?  33 THE INTERPRETER:  Gguhts eekw Bec'el_ taat, that's — Gooh tseawh  34 is beaver dam.  35 MR. FREY:  Oh.  Well, what I'm trying to find out, Mrs. Joseph,  36 is that when you were discussing the boundary for Gooh  37 tseawh, did you mean the boundary for the territory  38 that's described in your affidavit?  39 MS. MANDELL: Well, just first find out if she understands which  4 0 boundary you are asking her about before you ask the  41 question.  Did she understand that?  42 MR. FREY:  43 Q  Do you recall discussing the boundary for Gooh tseawh  44 with Mr. George?  45 A  Gooh tseawh's boundary is all of the — one of the  46 same that we are talking about.  And the way that —  47 the way that Gooh tseawh which is where the head of 11  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 that creek is, it's — it's the head of Tl'oo liits  2 yanlii.  3 Q  Now, Tl'oo liits yanlii, is that the boundary of your  4 territory?  5 A  Just a little east of Tl'oo liits yanlii.  6 Q  So when you refer to the boundary for Gooh tseawh,  7 that's not the same thing as the boundary for C'edii  8 toostaan?  9 A  It's all in one but just Gooh tseawh is a — is just a  10 small area in specific.  11 Q  And the creek itself, Tl'oo liits yanlii is outside  12 your territory?  13 A  It's within — Gooh tseawh is part of the territory.  14 Q  Well, just so I have this correct, is it within the  15 territory that you describe in your affidavit?  16 A  Yes.  17 Q  Now, do you know where — well, Mrs. Joseph, we've  18 been going for over an hour now.  Do you want to take  19 a break?  20 THE INTERPRETER:  She's going to take a break.  21 MR. FREY:  All right.  22 (BRIEF ADJOURNMENT TAKEN)  23 MR. FREY:  24 Q       Mrs.   Joseph,   how  are you  doing,   are you feeling okay?  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  All right.  I'm going to ask you some more questions  27 about the territory, Annie'm going to ask you about a  28 creek which is found — Mr. Holland, the name of this  29 creek is at the bottom of page 2 of the affidavit,  30 second line up, Annie believe it's Yeel^ Ces Kwe.  Do  31 you know that creek?  32 A  My grandfather mentioned that name to me.  I'm not  33 familiar with that area, but I've heard Johnny David  34 and Moses David mention that area to me.  35 Q  You've never gone to that creek yourself?  36 A  No.  37 Q       Now,   do you  know  a  creek  that  the white people  call  3 8 Dockrill   Creek?  39 A       I also  don't know  that  one.  40 Q       Mr.   Holland,   do you know a name  for Dockrill   Creek?  41 All   right.     And do you know  a creek  that  the white  42 people  call  Edward Creek?  43 A       No,   I  don't  know  any English names.  44 Q      All  right.     And Mr.   Holland,   do you know a  45 Wet'suwet'en name  for  Edward Creek?  46 Now,   when —  Mrs.   Joseph,   when you  swore  the  47 affidavit,   did —  do you  recall when Mr.   Holland  read 12  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  to you the boundary description?  Yes.  And when he read the boundary description to you,  did — did he use any English names?  No.  Now, getting back to the creek Yeel_ Ces Kwe — I'm not  even close on that one — that creek I asked you to  read for me, Mr. Holland?  Yeel^ Ces Kwe.  Now, that creek is in the territory of Smogelgem?  Yes.  And if someone said that was in Wah tah keg'ht's  territory, they would be wrong?  Yes.  Now,   there  is  a mountain —  I'm going back across   the  river now.     There  is a mountain north of Houston which  I believe  the Wet'suwet'en name  is Tal_ dzin yiis,  which is   spelt,   T-A-L-D-Z-I-N-Y-I-I-S.      It's  not   in  the affidavit,   Mr.   Holland.     Do you want  to write  out  that  name?  Tal^ dzin yiis,   that's Laksilyu's,   Tal^ dzin yiis.  Is  that  a mountain north of Houston?  It's a  small  mountain.  Do you  know  if   the white people call   that Mount  Harry  Dav is?  No,   I don't  know   that.  All   right.     But you  know  that Tal^ dzin yiis  is  a  small  mountain north of Houston?  Yes,   I  know  of   Tal_ dzin yiis.  I'm sorry  to repeat,   but you know Tal_ dzin yiis,   it's  a  small  mountain  a  few miles north of  Houston?  Yes.  And  is  that mountain in your  territory?  No,   it's at Laksilyu  territory.  All   right.     And  if   someone  said that was  in your  territory   they would be wrong?  The line  goes  over.  I'm  sorry?  The line goes over that.  Well, do you know where the summit of the mountain is?  It's a small mountain facing east.  Is the peak of the mountain in your territory or is it  in Laksilyu territory?  On east end of mountain is in Laksilyu territory.  Do you know if the mountain peak is in your territory  or in Laksilyu territory?  On the east side of the mountain would be in Laksilyu 1 7  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 territory.  2 Q  And the west side of the mountain is in your  3 territory?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  Now, the land across the river from Houston, is that  6 in your territory or is that in Laksilyu territory?  7 A  Along the area the Tsee ta dii t'ai is within our  8 territory.  9 MR. FREY:  I request I get a spelling for that, please.  10 THE TRANSLATOR:  T-S-E-E-T-A-D-I-I-T-'-A-I.  11 MR. FREY:  T-'?  12 THE TRANSLATOR:  A-I.  13 MR. FREY:  Mr. Holland, do you have a translation for that name?  14 THE INTERPRETER:  Tsee ta dii t'ai?  The area called Tsee ta dii  15 t'ai is a hill that's going into — jutting into the  16 river.  17 MR. FREY:  18 Q  Is that hill near Barrett?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  Is it down river from Barrett?  21 A  It's across from Barrett.  22 Q  Across from Barrett.  Now, the north bank of the  23 Bulkley, across from Houston, is that in your  24 territory?  25 A      Above  Houston  I  think belongs  to Gitdumden.  26 Q       Now,   when you  talk about   "above Houston",   are you  27 talking about   the  land  south  of   the Bulkley  or  the  2 8 land north of   the Bulkley?  2 9 A      Road leading out  of  Houston leading  into Owen Lake,  30 that's  the one  I  call  up and  that's  all   in Gitdumden  31 territory.  32 Q  All right.  The land on the other side of the river  33 from Houston, not on this side with the road that goes  34 to Owen Lake, but the land over on the other side of  35 the Bulkley, is that in your territory or is that  36 Laksilyu?  37 A      That's Laksilyu  territory.  3 8 Q       All   right.     Now,   did you know Little Dennis Michell?  39 A  No.  40 Q  Do you know Florence Hall?  41 A  Yes, I know her.  42 Q  Did you know her father?  43 A  No.  44 Q  Now, Chief McKenzie was the Smogel — the person who  45 held the name Smogelgem before Abraham Nikal; is that  46 correct?  47 A  Yes. 14  M.   Joseph   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Frey  1 Q       Now,   have you  ever heard that when Chief  McKenzie  2 became  Smogelgem,   that he  transferred  the  territory  to  3 Florence Hall's  father because Florence Hall  paid —  4 excuse me,   Florence Hall's father paid for  the  5 gravestone?     Have you  ever heard that  from Little  6 Dennis?  7 A       No.  8 Q       Do you  know what  clan Florence Hall's  father was   in?  9 A      Little Dennis was Laksilyu.  10 Q       All   right.     Just   so  I  have  this  clear,   you  told me  11 that you  didn't  know Little Dennis Michell.     Do you  12 mean  that you never met him?  13 A       I only knew Dennis,   I  didn't  know  the  father.  14 Q       Dennis Michell?  15 A       Could be.     I  don't know his father,   I  only knew  16 Dennis.  17 Q  Oh, I think maybe I've got confused.  I'm sorry, Mrs.  18 Joseph, I'm going to ask you something I've already  19 asked you, just to try to get it straight myself.  Can  20 you just, maybe, explain that to her.  21 Did you know Little Dennis Michell?  22 A  I only know Little Dennis.  23 Q  Oh, a Little Dennis, all right.  Now, is the Little  24 Dennis that you know, is that Florence Hall's father  25 or is that someone else?  26 A  Yes.  27 Q       It's  Florence  Hall's  father?  28 A       Yes.  29 Q       All   right.     And he was —  did you  say he was Laksilyu?  30 A       Yes.  31 Q  And had you ever heard that Little Dennis had got the  32 territory because he paid for the gravestone when  33 Chief McKenzie became Smogelgem?  34 A  No.  35 Q       Have you ever heard  that little Dennis  passed the  36 territory  to his  son Jimmy Dennis?  37 A       All   I  know   is  that Jimmy  Dennis'   name was  transferred  38 onto Emily's   territory,   that's —   that's out,   way  out.  39 Q       Emily  is Emily Dennis?  40 A       Yes.  41 Q       And this  isn't another  territory you are  talking  42 about,   it's —  his name wasn't put on the  territory  43 that you've  described in your  affidavit?  44 A      All   I  know  is   that  right in the Walcott area when  45 Emily —  Emily's part of   the  territory was  transferred  46 to Jimmy in  the  area called Yin staan.  47 MR.   FREY:     Can I  get a  spelling for  that,   Mr.   Mitchell. i «;  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 THE TRANSLATOR:  Y-I-N-S-T-A-A-N.  2 MR. FREY:  3 Q  When you talk about Emily's part of the territory, are  4 you talking about part of the territory that you  5 described in your affidavit?  6 A  Yes.  They lived right in Walcott and that's why they  7 trapped in that territory.  8 Q  And what house is Emily in?  9 A  She's in the house of beaver and she's Tsayu.  10 Q  Tsayu.  Is she in — is the chief of her house Kweese?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  And you know that Jimmy Dennis was put on her part of  13 the territory, you heard about that?  14 MS. MANDELL:  Just before you translate that, are you talking  15 about territory or trapline?  16 MR. FREY:  I'm just using her words.  17 MS. MANDELL:  I know.  But what are you talking about?  18 MR. FREY:  I didn't want to put something to her, I wanted to  19 use her words.  And my note is that Jimmy Dennis' name  20 was put on Emily Dennis1 territory.  21 MS. MANDELL:  But that's when she was talking about the  22 territory that was "way out" she said, the Bernie  23 Lake — or the area that you identified as not being  24 within this territory.  25 MR. FREY:  No.  I think when we went back over that it turns out  26 that we are talking about an area within the  27 territory.  We are talking about Yin staan, which is  28 within the territory.  29 MS. MANDELL:  I think she is talking about — in answer to your  30 first question, "Have you ever heard that Little  31 Dennis passed the territory to Jimmy Dennis, " then she  32 says, "All I know is that Jimmy — Jimmy's name was  33 transferred to Emily's territory way out."  And then  3 4            you asked her again about the Walcott area and she  35 talked about Yin staan, which is in this territory.  36 So I just want to make sure that when you are asking  37 her about somebody doing something with respect to  38 putting somebody's name somewhere, that if it's a  39 trapline you say it, and if it's a territory you say  40 it.  41 MR. FREY:  42 Q  Well, I would like to straighten this out because I  43 misunderstood the evidence then.  44 Mrs. Joseph, a few minutes ago you told me about  45 Emily Dennis' territory way out.  Is that territory  46 part of the territory described in your affidavit or  47 is it another territory? 16  M.   Joseph   (for  Plaintiffs]  Cross-exam by Mr.   Frey  1 A       I was  talking when I  said Oonis,   I was  talking about  2 the area up past Telkwa,   and that's  the area  I was  3 talking about   then.  4 Q       All   right.     Sorry,   and go ahead?  5 A      When  I was   talking about Oonis.  6 MS.   SIGURDSON:     Could I  get a  spelling for  that,   please?  7 THE   TRANSLATOR:      0-0-N-I-S.  8 MR.   FREY:  9 Q  All right.  And is it your understanding that it's  10 that territory up by Telkwa, is the territory where  11 Jimmy Dennis' name was put on the territory?  12 A  Yes.  All I know is that his — it was transferred to  13 him Annie don't know nothing about it.  14 Q  All right.  But none of that area is within the  15 territory you've described in your affidavit?  16 A  No.  17 Q  All right.  Now, did you know that Jimmy Dennis had a  18 trapline registered on the western part of the  19 territory that you've described in your affidavit?  20 A  No, I don't know about that.  21 Q  And did you know that Jimmy Dennis transferred that  22 trapline to Florence Hall and that she now has the  23 trapline registered on the western part of your  24 territory?  Had you ever heard about that?  25 A  Yes, I heard.  All I know about that is that her name  26 was transferred onto the Walcott area.  27 Q  All right.  And when her name was transferred onto the  28 Walcott area, did she ask your permission?  29 A  All I know that Florence Hall's mother held that  30 territory then it was transferred to Florence Hall  31 later, that's all I knew because they always worked  32 together on that.  33 Q  Florence Hall never asked your permission to put her  34 name on the territory?  3 5 A  Her mother was looking after that, that is why  36 Florence and them got transferred on there.  37 Q  All right.  And her mother was Emily Dennis?  38 A  Yes.  3 9 Q  And who is Emily Dennis looking after it for?  40 A  I was pretty young when they were living there, and  41 all I can remember that we used to go and visit them.  42 Q  I know this is a long time ago, but can you remember  43 if Emily Dennis was looking after it for Kweese or if  44 she was looking after it for Smogelgem?  45 A  Kweese.  46 Q      And  the  territory we  are  talking about  is  the  47 territory  around Walcott? 37  M.   Joseph   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Frey  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  Now, do you know Margaret Williams?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  Do you know what house she is in?  5 A  She is a Tsayu.  She is also raised with my mother.  6 Q  Now, did you know that Margaret Williams had a  7 trapline registered across the territory described in  8 your affidavit?  9 A  Yes, I knew that, and my grandmother let her brother  10 use the other side of the territory.  11 Q  When you say "her brother", do you mean Margaret  12 Williams' brother or do you mean your grandmother's  13 brother?  14 A  It's my grandmother's brother who was Gus ded'a lak'  15 and Margaret is the daughter of Gus ded'a lak'.  16 MR. FREY:  Can I get that name, Mr. Mitchell.  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-U-S-D-E-D-'-A-L-A-K-' .  18 MR. FREY:  19 Q      All   right.     And is Gus  ded'a lak',   is  that a name  in  20 the House  of  Smogelgem?  21 A       Yes.  22 Q  And your understanding is that Margaret Williams got  23 her trapline registration from her father who is Gus  24 ded'a lak'?  25 A      Yes.     We used to travel  with  the old man when he was  26 trapping on  that  territory  also.  27 Q      And  is  the  old man Gus  ded'a lak'?  28 A      Yes.  29 Q  Now, is Margaret Williams still alive today?  30 A  Yes.  She is also very ill.  31 Q  Now, when Margaret Williams passes away, will the  32 trapline go to someone in the House of Namox — excuse  33 me, someone in Tsayu or will it go to someone in  34 Smogelgem?  35 A  It will remain within Smogelgem's house but  36 Margaret's — one of Margaret's children, Sue, will  37 be — will use that, Sue Alfred.  3 8 Q  All right.  And Sue Alfred is in the House of Namox?  3 9 A  Yes, she belongs to Namox's house.  40 Q  All right.  And have you — the fact that the trapline  41 will go to Sue Alfred, did you just hear that from  42 Margaret?  43 MS.   MANDELL:     Just  a  second.     She didn't say  the  trapline would  44 go  to Sue Alfred,   she  said  the  trapline will  belong  to  45 Smogelgem but  that  one  of  Margaret's  children,   Sue  46 Alfred,   will  use  it.  47 MR.   FREY: 18  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Well, all right.  Did you hear the fact that Sue Alfred will use the  trapline, did you hear that from Margaret Williams or  did you hear that in a feast?  Margaret Williams spoke about that herself.  She told you directly?  Yes.  All right.  And when you say that Sue Alfred will use  it, do you expect that Sue Alfred will have the  trapline registration?  Nothing has happened as yet, but — so I wouldn't know  at this point.  But you told me that when Margaret Williams passes  away Sue Alfred will use the trapline, Annie'm simply  trying to find out when you say that she will use it,  will she go down and register the trapline in her  name?  It's still in the process yet, they are talking about  it.  That could very well happen.  I don't know  myself.  Did anyone ever ask your permission for Sue Alfred to  use the territory?  No.  The only person that spoke to me on that was Sue  herself.  Do you know if Bill Nye knew that Margaret Williams  was out trapping on the territory?  Oh yes.  They worked together on that.  So my  grandmother's brother and they are all in-laws, they  all — they all work together on that.  All right.  Had you ever heard either from Bill Nye or  from anyone else that Bill Nye thought that Margaret  Williams could only trap over on the west side of the  Bulkley, over on the west side of the territory, had  you ever heard that?  We were on one side of the river and Margaret was on  the other side, that's all I knew.  Margaret was over on the west side?  She was on the Neel^ dzii Kwe side towards Nelgii.  Are you aware that Bill Nye thought that Margaret  Williams shouldn't do any trapping on the east side?  No.  They all work together, I didn't know anything  about that.  All right.  Have you ever heard of Paul Watson?  I've heard of Paul but I've never seen him.  Have you ever heard of Herbert Kerr?  No.  All right.  Have you ever heard of Jerry 01sen? 19  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 A   No.  2 Q  Did you ever —  3 A  All I know is Niido.  I heard of Niido, that's all.  4 MR. FREY:  And what does that word mean, Mr. Holland?  5 THE INTERPRETER:  White man.  White man.  6 MR. FREY:  7 Q  Did you ever hear that Paul Watson had a trapline  8 registered on the northern part of your territory?  9 A  No, I didn't know nothing about it.  All I heard was  10 some white man travelling in there.  11 Q  All right.  And there is two other names I'm going to  12 ask you about.  One is Gerald Ewal?  13 A  I don't know.  I was just wondering if you are talking  14 about Bob D'owk'?  15 THE INTERPRETER:  Translation, short Bob.  16 MR. FREY:  17 Q       I  don't  know.     Have you  ever heard of  Tom Blake?  18 A       No.  19 Q  Have you ever heard that any white man had a trapline  20 registered on the eastern part of your territory?  21 A  That's all I've heard is that Moses David told me  22 something about that.  23 Q  All right.  Now, you grew up at Barrett Lake; is that  24 correct?  2 5 A  Yes.  26 Q       And did you know  that your  father,   Arthur  Charlie,   had  27 Crown land at Bear Lake —   sorry,   Barrett Lake?  28 A       Yes,   I  knew  he had property.     Now white man's  living  29 on  there  now.  30 Q       Now,   your  father's  property,   do you  recall   that  it was  31 put  up for  tax  sale in  the  early 1950s?  32 A       No.     All   I  know   is  the white  people moved on  there.  33 Q       All   right.     You never heard that your  sister Elsie  34 bought  it back out   of   the   tax sale?  35 A       I  knew  that my  grandfather's  land we  got  it back  that  36 time.  37 Q       Well   I'm —  sorry,   I was  asking about your  father's  3 8 land.     Now,   your  grandfather  also had a lot  nearby?  39 A       My  father's land was  given  to Elsie.  40 Q       All   right.     And does  Elsie  still  have  that land  today?  41 A      No.     She passed away.  42 Q       All   right.     Now,   your  grandfather,   Bill  Nye,   he  also  43 had a lot  of  Crown land near your  father's;   is  that  44 right?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  All right.  And both your father and your grandfather  47 were Gitdumden? 20  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  Yes.  Now, Bill Nye passed away in about 1963; is that  correct?  Yes, it could be around that time.  All right.  And had you or your husband been paying  the property taxes on Bill Nye's land around the time  that he died?  About the time when my husband died, we were paying  taxes before that.  Time when my husband passed away,  we didn't have any funds to pay for taxes, so Jack  Price sold it for us.  All right.  And did Jack Price sell it to some white  people ?  Yes.  Jack Price, when he sold it, he took some of the  money back that he had used to pay taxes for us.  All right.  And did the rest of the monies from the  sale go to you and your sister?  Yes.  Do you recall that after your father died, you went to  see a lawyer in Smithers to get — to become the  representative of your father's estate — your grandfather's estate, excuse me?  Yes.  Do you remember Mr. Perry?  Yes.  And you went to him to get him to file some papers in  the courthouse so that you could sell the land; is  that right?  Yes.  All right.  Now, do you know Justine Charlie?  Yes, that was my father's sister.  And do you know Pierre Tom?  Yes.  And was he in your father's clan?  That was his nephew.  Now — and were they Gitdumden?  They were Gitdumden;  is that right?  Yes.  All right.  Now, I'm going to read you some other  names here, Annie suspect they are probably Gitdumden  as well.  So if you can just tell me what clan these  people are in.  Katherine Adam, was she Gitdumden?  Yes, she was Gitdumden.  And Margaret Adam?  I don't really know them.  They all live in east.  I  only knew of Kate.  All right.  But those people were all in your father's 21  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  clan?  Yes.  And did you know that you were registered on a  trapline with Pierre Tom and Katherine Adam?  Yes.  And that trapline is up at the northern part of your  territory; is that right?  It's up Ghiisdekyiis.  Ghiisdekyiis.  And is Ghiisdekyiis, is that in your territory?  It's my grandfather's territory.  So it's not in the territory described in your  affidavit?  It's joining with our territory and my grandfather's.  They work together on that.  All right.  And is the — you are now the registered  owner of that trapline; are you aware of that?  Yes.  All right.  And is that trapline, is it in your  territory or is it outside your territory?  It's outside, it's my grandfather's who are Gitdumden.  Now, do you know that Bill Nye wanted to pass the  territory at Barrett Lake to you and your sister?  Yes.  And also the territory going all the way up to C'edii  toostaan?  In other words, all the way up to McQuarrie  Lake, he wanted to pass that territory to you too?  Yes.  All that territory belongs to my grandmother.  All right.  And did you know that he also wanted to  pass the territory up to Tl'oo liits yanlii, Deep  Creek, he also wanted to pass that to you?  He told us that that area was in Gooh tseawh's area in  Smogelgem.  All right.  And now, did all of that territory we've  been talking about, Barrett Lake and C'edii toostaan  and Tl'oo liits yanlii, did that belong to your  grandmother or did it belong to Bill Nye?  It belonged to my grandmother.  All right.  And did Bill Nye under Wet'suwet'en law,  did Bill Nye have any right to treat that territory as  his own?  He was  using  the  territory  for my grandmother.  He didn't have any right  to give it away himself?  No.  Have you ever heard that there was a church chief at  Moricetown?  Yes.  And was Mooseskin Johnny, was he the church chief? 22  M.   Joseph   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Frey  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  And Jimmy Michell?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  Was that an important position?  5 A  Yes.  Yes, they looked after us.  Yes, they were  6 looking after the church and also the priest.  7 Q  All right.  Was the church chief the most important  8 chief in Moricetown?  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  And do you know how the church chief was chosen?  11 A  Yes.  He travelled with the priest and he also spoke  12 for the priest.  13 Q  All right.  But when Mooseskin Johnny passed away and  14 Jimmy Michell became church chief, do you know how it  15 was decided that Jimmy Michell would be the church  16 chief?  17 A  I don't know how they go.  18 Q  All right.  Now, when someone in a Wet'suwet'en house  19 who has passed away, is the name given to the person  20 in the house who makes the largest contribution at the  21 feast?  22 A  When a person passes away, whoever contributes the  23 most is considered as the successor.  24 Q  All right.  And does the name — if the person that  25 contributed the most was in the same clan but in a  26 different house, would they get the name?  27 A  It's always when a person passes away, it's always the  2 8 person in the same house.  29 Q  All right.  Now, when is the last time that you heard  3 0 the boundary that you've described in your affidavit,  31 the boundary that Mr. Holland read to you that goes  3 2 all the way around the territory, when is the last  33 time that you heard that boundary described in a  34 feast?  35 MS. MANDELL:  Before the witness answers, I think that question  36 is quite misleading.  She says in her affidavit that  37 "the territories described at the feast."  I don't  3 8 know ever that there has been evidence that a boundary  39 was described at the feast.  40 MR. FREY:  No, no, I'm not intending to — I'm just asking if  41 the boundary has ever — the boundary, in a way that  42 it's set out in the affidavit, if she has ever heard  43 it described — well, when was the last time she heard  44 it described at a feast in that way, if ever.  She may  45 not have ever heard it described that way.  46 THE INTERPRETER:  You are confusing her by referring to "after  47 David". 23  M.   Joseph   (for   Plaintiffs]  Re-exam by Ms.   Mandell  1 MR.   FREY:     Do you want me  to ask  the question again,   Mr.  2 Holland,   or  do you remember   the question?  3 THE  INTERPRETER:     No,   I   think  I   remember.  4 A       I've  never really heard  them speak on the boundary  in  5 a feast,   but  they  talk about  the  territory  as  a whole.  6 MR.   FREY:     All   right.     Thank you very much,   Mrs.   Joseph.  7 MS.   SIGURDSON:     I  have no questions.  8 MS.   MANDELL:     I have  a few questions on redirect.  9  10 RE-EXAMINATION  BY  MS.   MANDELL:  11 Q       Now Mrs.   Joseph,   you  said  that when you  first met your  12 husband,   his  family   there had been chased off   the land  13 in Quick.     Did he  tell you who chased him off   the land  14 there?  15 A       It was white  people and  they  took their land away  from  16 them.  17 Q       All   right.  18 A       There  is a  grave  site   there,   that's where  they used to  19 live.  20 Q       And  is  that  grave  site  still   standing?  21 A      The  previous  owners used  to  take  care  not  to destroy  22 that  grave  site,   but   the  recent buyer  to  that  land  23 destroyed it,   he  literally  ripped it up.  24 Q       And  that's a Wet'suwet'en grave?  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  Now, you were asked about when you were preparing this  27 affidavit.  Did you tell Marvin George the  28 Wet'suwet'en names that were put in this affidavit?  29 A  Yes.  3 0 Q  You said that you moved into town when your husband  31 died, into to Smithers.  Had you lived on the  32 territory which you described in this affidavit until  33 that time?  34 A  Yes.  When — when we lived in that — on the  35 territory, then we lived in Quick for awhile and then  36 we moved back onto the territory.  37 Q  Okay.  And how many children do you have?  38 A  I had 13 children.  Twelve are still alive and one is  39 deceased.  Patrick is still alive Annie have total of  4 0 seven boys and six girls.  41 Q  And how old are you?  42 A  Sixty-five.  43 Q  All right.  You were asked — I hope I pronounce this  44 right — you were asked about the creek Tl'oo liits  45 yanlii.  Is it the head waters of that creek which are  46 in the boundary of your territory?  47 A  Yes. 24  M.   Joseph   (for  Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms.   Mandell  1 Q       And you  talked about   the  creek —  I don't know  if   I  2 can pronounce  this,   Neel_ dzii  Kwe.     Can you  see  that  3 creek from  Smogelgem*s  territory?  4 A       Yes.  5 Q  And is that creek — is the area Neel^ dzii Kwe in Wah  6 tah keg'ht's territory?  7 MS. SIGURDSON:  Could we have a spelling for that before the  8 question is translated?  9 MR. FREY:  Is that a name in the affidavit?  10 THE INTERPRETER:  What was that question again?  11 MS. MANDELL: We are going to withdraw it, we can't spell it.  12 I'll come back to it and we'll go on to another  13 question.  The spelling of what we were trying to  14 earlier say is in the affidavit, it's Neel_ dzii —  15 MR. FREY:  Is it one —  16 MS. MANDELL:  17 Q   N-E-E-barred L-D-Z-I-L. Neel_ dzii Kwe.  18 Is that in Wah tah keg'ht's territory?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  Okay.  Now, you said that the church chief was  21 important.  Was he — and you said that he was the  22 most important chief.  Was he the most important chief  23 in dealing with matters related to the church?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  But was he the most important chief in matters dealing  26 with the territory?  27 A  Yes, he can speak for them then also.  2 8 Q  He can speak for who?  29 A  He can speak for the people that hold the territory,  3 0 his job was to speak for people.  31 Q  Could he decide who would go on the territory?  32 A  It's not his job to do that, but he can speak for  33 people.  34 Q       All   right.     And  is  it his job to  speak at  the  feasts?  35 A       Yes.  36 Q  And can he speak at the chiefs — can he speak at the  37 feasts and make decisions about the territory?  3 8 A  It's not his job to speak on the territory but he can  39 speak for them.  40 Q  All right.  And can the church chief be a hereditary  41 chief?  42 A  Yes.  43 MS. MANDELL:  I have got no further questions.  44  45  46  47 ?*  M. Joseph (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  J&'  1 (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED)  2  3  4 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  5 a true and accurate transcript of the  6 proceedings herein transcribed to the  7 best of my skill and ability.  8  9  10  11  12    13 Toni Kerekes,  14 O.R. , R. P.R.  15 United Reporting Service Ltd.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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