Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Cross-Examination on Affidavit of David Green British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 15, 1989

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 £Dn il\t ^uprtmt Court of JirtiisI] Columbia  (BEFORE THE HONOURABLE THE CHIEF OUSTICE)  No 084 3  Smithers Registry  Hazelton, B.C.  March 15. 1989  BETWEEN:  AND:  DELGAMUUKW, also known as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MADESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID GREEN  P. GRANT, Esq;  3.M. MACKENZIE. Esq;  J.A. MACAULAY. Q.C.  Appearing for the Plaintiffs  Appearing for HMQ of the  Province of British Columbia  Appearing forthe Attorney-  General of Canada INDEX OF WITNESSES FOR THE PLAINTIFFS  GREEN, DAVID (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  PAGE  1  16  21 INDEX TO EXHIBITS  Number Description  Page Number  1 B.C. trapline registration dated October 10,  1985 21  2 Relinquishment of trapline signed by Emma  Green 21 1  D.   GREEN   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 March 15, 1989  2 HAZELTON, B.C.  3  4 (INTERPRETER:  Alice Sampson)  5  6 DAVID GREEN, one of the Plaintiffs  7 herein, having been duly sworn,  8 testified as follows:  9  10 MR. GRANT:  Before you start, Mr. Macaulay, I just want to  11 advise both counsel of the defendants for the record  12 that it came to my attention while interviewing Mr.  13 Green that with respect to paragraph 4 that as well as  14 Charles Clifford, the former Gyetm galdoo, and Thomas  15 Wright, the former Guuhadak, the late Dick Lattie also  16 gave him information with respect to this territory,  17 and I'm advising you of that before your  18 cross-examination so that you may — in case you wish  19 to ask questions relating to that, and you should  20 amend or note that on your affidavit accordingly.  21  2 2    CRO S S-EX AM I NAT IQN_BY_MRJ._MACAULAY:  23 Q  Your name is David Green?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q      And what is your  chief's name?  26 A       I've had about —  I  have  three names,   D'gal  mook, Wii  27 amxw daakw,   and Dii  nuum maax.  28 Q       Perhaps you  could have  that  spelled now?    That would  29 be  useful.  30 A  D'gal mook is D-'-g-a-l m-o-o-k, and Wii amxw daakw is  31 W-i-1 a-m-x-w d-a-a-k-w, and the third one is Dii  3 2 nu'um maax, D-i-i n-u-*-u-m m-a-a-x.  33 Q  Are those names in the house of Wii Gaak?  34 A  Yes.  35 Q  And was one of those names given to you when you were  36 very small, a small boy?  37 A  Yes.  These were the names that were given to me.  It  38 all started when I was small and the reason for this  3 9 is that — in preparation of me being a chief later on  40 in life.  41 Q  Of these three names that you gave us, which is the  42 one that you use now at the feast?  43 A  I've got — I don't use any of these names, but right  44 now I'm using Wagil Wii, which was given to me by  45 Steve Robinson.  46 Q       Is  that W-a-g-i-1 W-i-1?  47 A      Yes,   that's what it  is.     That's how  it's  spelled. 2  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 Q       And you  are a member  of   the Lax Gibuu  clan?  2 A       Yes.  3 Q  How old are you now?  4 A  I was born December 7th, 1912.  5 Q  Were you —  6 A  I think it's '77.  7 Q  Were you born — were you born at Kisgagas?  8 A  Yes.  I was baptized — I was baptized here at St.  9 Peter's and the Reverend's name was Mr. Field.  10 Q  When you were very young did your house, that's the  11 house of Wii Gaak, live at Kisgagas?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  And was there a long house at that time?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  Did you and your family live in the long house?  16 A  No, we did not live there when — as we were growing  17 up.  There was only two left which belonged to Dii,  18 D-i-i, and 'Habaasxw, '-H-a-b-a-a-s-x-w.  These were  19 the two houses that were left as we were growing up.  20 Q  When the house of Wii Gaak held a feast, where did —  21 at Kisgagas, where was the feast held?  22 A  There was this man named Walter Amagyet,  23 A-m-a-g-y-e-t.  This was — he had a long house, a big  24 house, and this is what they used.  25 MR. MACAULAY:  Do you remember swearing and signing an  26 affidavit in May of 1988?  27 MR. GRANT:  Could you show him?  28 THE WITNESS: Yes.  29 MR. MACAULAY:  30 Q  And that affidavit was about the territory of Gyetm  31 galdoo?  3 2        A  Yes.  33 Q  Do you read English?  34 A  I never really went to school.  I think I just went  35 less than a year and what I did is I usually read the  36 prayer book or look up at the hymms, and this is where  37 I learn from reading a little now.  38 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, before you signed your affidavit did you  39 read it?  40 MR. GRANT:  Maybe you should show it to him what you're talking  41 about.  42 THE WITNESS:  Neil was the one that read this out to me.  43 MR. MACAULAY:  44 Q  How many times did you read through your affidavit  45 with Neil, was it only once or more than once?  46 A  I forgot how many times.  47 Q  And when you started looking at the description of the 3  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20 .  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  territory of Gyetm galdoo with Neil, did you correct  some of the description that Neil had written down?  Yes. We did correct some of this because of the 17  Mile and the 18 Mile.  There was a cabin at the 17  Mile where them Beal and Tommy Muldoe used to have a  cabin there.  Was that cabin inside the territory of Gyetm galdoo?  The boundary of that — of Gyetm galdoo's territory is  the water there that's there, the creek or the river,  whatever — anyway, the one beside Gyetm galdoo's  territory is Yagosip's territory. Y-a-g-o-s-i-p.  Well, you mentioned a cabin that was used by two men  that you named.  Is that cabin — was that cabin or is  that cabin in the territory of Gyetm galdoo?  No.  Now, the — this territory called An djam Ian, A-n  d-j-a-m 1-a-n —  Yes.  — when was the last time you were on that territory  An djam Ian?  Two or three years ago. Kathy and I and Eric.  Did you ever trap on that territory?  No.  Were you on that territory with a former chief of the  house of — head chief of the house of Gyetm galdoo?  The former chief that had that name in my time was an  older man and he was always sick and he said he was  going to bring me and show me there, but he never did  go and come with me.  Did you go on that territory with Charles Clifford?  Yes.  And was he —  Charlie Clifford senior took his son also to this  territory, Charlie Clifford junior, and they had a  cabin along — right along the lake there.  Did you go with Charlie Clifford senior to the  territory?  No.  Did you go with Charlie Clifford junior to the  territory?  No.  Did you ever  go  to  the territory with Thomas Wright  whose  name is Guuhadak?  Yes.  And what were you  doing on  the territory with Thomas  Wright?  He took me — I asked him to take me there so I could 4  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 know the boundary of this territory, and I want to  2 know how far it went and he told me that it went as '  3 far as 17 Mile.  4 Q  When did you go to the territory with Thomas Wright?  5 A  No, I don't remember what year it was.  It's a long  6 time ago.  7 Q  Is it more than ten years ago that you went to the  8 territory with Thomas Wright?  9 A  It's more than ten years.  10 Q  And did you go to the territory with Dick Lattie?  11 A  I was out and — I met him on the way out and he sat  12 down. We sat down and we talked.  He was married to  13 Charlie Clifford senior's daughter Julia and this is  14 how he knew about this territory, and we sat down and  15 he told me about the boundaries of this territory.  16 Q  How long ago did you and Dick Lattie sit down and talk  17 about the boundaries of the territory?  18 A  It's been a long long time.  19 Q  Were you a young man when you had that conversation  20 with Dick Lattie?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  And were you on the territory or were you outside the  23 boundaries of the territory when you had that  24 conversation with Dick Lattie?  25 A  We were on Adam's territory.  I don't know who —  26 whose responsibility for this territory now, but it  27 was near the Nass area.  28 Q  So that is a long way from the territory called An  29 djam Ian?  3 0 A  No.  No, it was way way way up north known as Lax la  31 dax in Stevens Flat.  It was towards An djam Ian, but  3 2 I — what we did is we spend the night together  33 because I was out hunting goats, and this is when he  34 mentioned the territory of An djam Ian.  35 MR. MACAULAY: Now, you mentioned you were at An djam Ian about  36 three years ago with two other people.  How long was  37 it before that visit that you had been to An djam Ian?  38 MR. GRANT:  That is the territory of An djam Ian or the place An  39 djam Ian?  40 MR. MACAULAY:  41 Q  The territory of An djam Ian.  42 A  Oh, I think he misunderstood my question. He said the  43 snow was too deep and we just had a 4-by-4.  I'll ask  44 him again. We usually go hunting there occasionally  45 and we usually go on the McKenzie side, and I don't  46 remember when the last time was because we go there  47 occasionally now and then. 5  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q  Do you go hunting on the territory of An djam Ian or  2 go hunting near the territory of An djam Ian?  3 A  No, it's on the McKenzie side.  4 MR. MACAULAY:   Do you go —  5 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, the witness is indicating with  6 his arm what appears to be — well, you may ask him,  7 but he's indicating across or something like that with  8 a direction and he's pointing it out.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  10 Q  Is the McKenzie territory across the Suskwa River  11 from — that is, north of the Suskwa River?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  When is the last time you went hunting in the McKenzie  14 territory?  15 A  It's a long time now, about four or five years ago  16 when I go and hunt moose there.  17 Q  And when you go to this hunting ground, do you drive  18 most of the way?  19 A  Sometimes I use car or skidoo.  20 Q  And when you travel to that hunting ground, do you  21 stay on the north side of the Suskwa River?  22 A  The name of that territory was Madii lii, M-a-d-i-i  23 1-i-i.  Before I used to walk there, but it's just  24 recently they've put in a logging road there and I  25 think this logging road goes right down to the lake  26 now on this An djam Ian territory.  27 MR. MACAULAY:  When you used to walk to that hunting ground,  28 did you stay on the north side of the Suskwa River?  29 MR. GRANT:  I'm getting confused.  Just a moment.  Just wait.  30 Just tell him — you say when you go hunting to that  31 territory.  He's been describing two, and then I'm  32 just wondering if you're referring to both of them or  33 only one, if you'd be descriptive. You referred to the  34 McKenzie or Madii lii territory, and he referred to An  35 djam Ian just now, so I'm not sure which one you're —  36 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm asking my question about the McKenzie  37 territory.  38 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  3 9 MR. MACAULAY:  40 Q  Madii lii.  Now, when you go to hunt in the Madii lii  41 territory, either when you walk or when you go on a  42 logging road, do you stay on the north side of the  43 Suskwa River on your road in, on your path in?  44 A  Yeah, he stays on the — on the north side of Madii  45 lii.  46 Q  And the Gyetm galdoo*s territory called An djam Ian is  47 south of the Suskwa River? 6  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  Have you ever been to Bear Lake?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  And when you — were you there more than once?  5 A  I think three times.  6 Q  When you were at Bear Lake, did you see any Carrier or  7 Sekani people?  8 A  Yes.  Only one. William Charlie introduced me to him,  9 but I forgot his name.  He's either from Takla or from  10 Babine.  11 Q  Now, apart from the time two years — three years ago  12 when you went to the Gyetm galdoo territory, did you  13 ever travel inside the territory with anyone?  14 A  Yes, we travelled there, Johnny Wilson and I. We went  15 there to hunt beaver and we — we went towards the  16 boundary near McKenzie territory that was — this  17 belonged to Ben McKenzie's grandfather, and this is  18 when we went there.  The water was too high, so we  19 just turned back from this Gyetm galdoo territory.  20 Q  How long ago was that trip?  21 A  A long time.  It was way before he had — it was a  22 long time ago.  It was before he had his taxi now,  23 company, and Phillip Morrison was the one that took us  24 over there and we walked the rest of the way.  25 Q  Was that when you were a young man?  26 A  Yes.  27 Q  Your son, Sylvester Green, is Gyetm galdoo today?  28 A  Yes.  29 Q  Did you assist your son in answering?  30 A  He said that — he said Rennie, his son, got a letter  31 from Victoria saying that there was an overlap on the  32 territory and he's, you know, he said he just — he  33 asked Rennie for the letter, but he misplaced it some  34 place.  35 Q  Did you assist your son Sylvester to answer questions  36 in this lawsuit about the territory, about the An djam  37 Ian territory?  38 A  Yes.  3 9   MR. MACAULAY:  And did you see a map that your son attached to  40 his statement about the territory?  41 MR. GRANT:  Let him look at the map. Let him look before he  42 answers the question.  Go off the record for a minute.  43 Your question was whether he had seen that map?  44 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  45 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  46 THE WITNESS:   No.  47 MR. MACAULAY: 7  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q  Did you know that Sylvester attached a map to his  2 statement about his house and territory?  3 A  No.  4 MR. MACAULAY:  Sylvester is not familiar with the boundaries of  5 An djam Ian.  6 MR. GRANT: Well, I object to that because he's — how can he  7 say what Sylvester has you've got evidence from  8 Sylvester about? Can you re —  9 MR. MACAULAY:  10 Q  Well, I'll go about it another way.  11 Did Sylvester ask you about the boundaries of An  12 djam Ian?  13 A  No.  This was the reason why Kathy and I .went to this  14 place so we could take pictures and so she would know  15 herself where the territory is and so that Syl would  16 look at these pictures.  17 Q  Who's Syl?  18 A  Sylvester.  19 Q  Oh. Well, did Sylvester ask you for help in  20 describing the boundaries of the territory?  21 A  No.  He didn't need to ask me because I'm always  22 telling him the boundaries of this territory.  23 Q  Did Sylvester ever — to your knowledge, did Sylvester  24 ever go trapping on the territory called An djam Ian?  25 A  No.  Rennie told me he was going to build a cabin  26 there, but he's quite busy right now.  27 MR. MACAULAY:   Is anyone trapping — to your knowledge is  28 anyone trapping at the moment?  29 MR. GRANT:  On An djam Ian.  30 MR. MACAULAY:  31 Q  On An djam Ian?  32 A  Well, Charlie Clifford used to trap there and there  33 was this person from Babine that was there, but they  34 asked him to leave.  35 Q  What was the name of the person from Babine?  36 A  No, he didn't tell me.  Probably Charlie Clifford  37 junior knows who this man is.  38 Q  Okay.  Did anyone tell you that some Wet'suwet'en  39 people have a registered trap line on part of the An  40 djam Ian territory?  41 A  No.  42 Q  How long ago did Charlie Clifford tell the Babine  43 people to stay away from the territory?  44 A  It's a long long time.  It was about the time when my  45 father passed on.  46 Q  Was that when you were a young man?  47 A  Yes. D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q  There was a mountain called An djam Ian, Xsi An djam  2 Ian I guess it is?  3 A  It's — this An djam Ian is a lake.  It's near the  4 mountain.  This is where the fish spawn and this is  5 why it's called An djam Ian. An djam Ian means pot of  6 fish eggs, and this is where the spawning was done.  7 Q  Have you ever heard of the name Blunt Mountain?  8 A  No.  No.  He said are you talking about this place  9 called ox battle.  10 Q  No, I'm looking at your affidavit, Mr. Green, and I  11 see that you list two mountains and one of them is An  12 djam Ian and that's why I'm asking you this question.  13 And I ask again if there is a mountain called An djam  14 Ian in the territory?  15 A  No.  This is all I know is that there is a lake there  16 that's called An djam Ian.  17 MR. MACAULAY:  Do you know a creek the white people call  18 Skilokis Creek?  19 MR. GRANT:  Is it on the affidavit?  20 MR. MACAULAY:  No, it isn't on the affidavit.  That's  21 S-k-i-1-o-k-i-s, but that's — it may be a European  22 word.  23 MR. GRANT:  S-k-i-1-o —  24 MR. MACAULAY:  25 Q  S-k-i-1-o-k-i-s. Skilokis.  26 A  Did you say it's a creek?  27 Q  A creek running south from the Suskwa River.  Yes?  28 A  No.  29 Q  Did any part of the territory called An djam Ian  30 belong to Spookw at earlier times?  31 A  No.  3 2        Q  Did you ever hear the story that Spookw had become  33 bewitched or witchcrafted and then gave some territory  34 to Gyetm galdoo? Did you ever hear that story?  35 A  No.  36 Q  Do you know a Wet'suwet'en man called Antoine Tom?  37 A  No. Where is he from, Babine?  38 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, I don't know where he's from.  He has a  39 trapline, registered trapline.  He was a registered  40 trapline holder.  I don't know where he lived.  41 MR. GRANT:  You should just translate that for —  42 MR. MACAULAY:  43 Q  Yes.  So that the witness will know what my response  44 to his question was.  45 A  He said he's either from Moricetown or from Babine.  46 Q  Do you know of any other territory that belongs to the  47 house of Gyetm galdoo? 9  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A  This is the only one I know.  2 Q  Did Gyetm galdoo ever own territory around Sealy Lake?  3 A  Yes.  The lake belongs to Gyetm galdoo, but I don't  4 know where the boundaries are.  5 Q  In Gitksan is the lake called — well, I'm going to  6 spell it because I can't pronounce it. D-a-a-m  7 s-t-e-k-y-a-w-d-e-n-t-h-c.  8 A  Can I look at that?  9 Q  Yes.  10 A  Da'am stiikyoodinhlxw.  Yes, it's close to it.  11 MR. GRANT:  That name, just for the record, is spelled different  12 in other parts of the transcript.  There's a standard  13 spelling, which is probably not consistent with that,  14 for Stiikyoodinhlxw and with the word Da'am in front  15 of it.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  Okay.  17 MR. GRANT:  But it's the same name as the mountain known as  18 Rochers de Boules.  Do you have the reference of that  19 note?  20 MR. MACAULAY:  21 Q  Yes.  It's at the top of — it's data sheet page 56 4.  22 It looks like something I got from you.  23 Now, Mr. Green, I'm going to ask you about another  24 place.  Its English name is Station Creek, but  25 according to Neil's notes its Gitksan name is spelled  26 X-s-a-n X-s-a-g-i-i-b-i-1, and could you tell me if  27 you had ever heard that Station Creek with that  28 Gitksan name belonged to Gyetm galdoo?  29 A  Yes, that is — that is their fishing place across  30 here known as Xsan Xsagiibil.  31 MR. MACAULAY:   And do you know a mountain called —  32 MR. GRANT: Just — are you finished with this one?  33 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  34 MR. GRANT:  Just before you proceed, I think it's only fair, at  35 least for the record, I think it should be put to the  36 witness that you've indicated these as Neil Sterritt's  37 notes, and in one sense that's correct, but these are  38 notes of informants, and you've now referred to one  39 from one informant.  I believe you're finished with  40 the previous one relating to Sealy Lake.  The  41 informant was David Gunanoot.  This informant that  42 you've referred to here is Henry Wright, so I think  43 it's a miss — it may be — it may lead to a  44 misunderstanding that these are Neil Sterritt's notes.  45 These are notes of Neil Sterritt from other  46 informants.  The other comment on this is that there  47 seems to be a distinction that Mr. Sterritt has raised 10  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 as to whether it's Station Creek or Chicago Creek that  2 has that name Xsan Xsagiibil.  3 MR. MACAULAY: Well, I referred to Sterritt in connection with  4 this spelling —  5 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  7 Q  — only.  I'm not putting Sterritt's notes to this  8 witness.  9 We'll turn to another feature now called — a  10 mountain called Anak Ma'ay, A-n-a-k, and then another  11 word, M-a-'-a-y.  Do you know a mountain called —  12 having that Gitksan name?  13 A  No.  It's probably the spelling because that's the way  14 I —  15 Q  Well, in English on the map it's called Mount Thoen,  16 T-h-o-e-n.  Does that name — is that name familiar to  17 you?  18 A  What is it?  19 Q  Mount Thoen, T-h-o-e-n.  20 A  Could you tell me where it is?  21 Q  Yes.  It's north of the Suskwa River. A few miles  22 north of the Suskwa River.  23 A  No, he doesn't know.  24 Q  No.  Did your father go fishing at the coast?  25 A  Yes, a long time ago.  I think it was in 1925.  26 Q  And did your father take you with him when he went  27 fishing at the coast?  28 A  Yes.  29 Q  And when did you start fishing yourself as a  30 commercial fisherman?  31 A  I fished in 1928 and I quit after because of my  32 children.  I didn't want them to go overboard.  33 Q  You fished then only one season on the coast?  34 A  I just started one —- one season, June 20th to August,  35 and that was the only time.  36 Q  And did you do any pole cutting?  37 A  Yes.  38 Q  And for how many?  3 9 A  I've done a lot of work in my time.  I've even worked  40 for the — which is known as the extra gang for the  41 train tracks, and I made — I was making poles and I  42 worked in sawmills, and I — at one time I just about  43 broke my legs working at the mill.  44 Q  Now, did you start working in either pole cutting or  45 at the sawmill or on the extra gang after you gave up  46 commercial fishing?  47 A  I went trapping after the fishing. 11  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  So you were trapping in the winter of 1929?  Yes.  And for how many winters after that did you continue  going trapping?  We constantly go out from April to May almost every  year.  Do you mean the months of April and May?  Yes.  Do I understand what you're — you to say that you  start in the winter and you continue trapping until  April and May?  Yes, that's what I mean.  And in April and May is it beaver that you are looking  for?  Yes.  Do you still go out — did you go out last winter and  last April and — last season, the last trapping  season?  No, I haven't gone out for three years now.  And —  I've just been down for the last three years now.  I  usually go out with the skidoo every year, but now I  couldn't do this for the last three years.  And is your trapping ground up near the Nass River?  Yes.  And is that where you started trapping in 1929?  I go with different people all over the place.  Do you — have you done all your trapping in your  trapping career on territory that belongs to Wii Gaak?  Yes. We — Jack Wright and I usually go out there and  this was a long time ago when Jack was still getting  around.  Well, the last time you went trapping, where did you  go, what territory, what part of the country did you  go to?  He said he went towards Kisgagas, near Kisgagas there,  and it's just along the roads where he last went.  And is that territory that belongs to Wii Gaak?  No.  Did he have permission from the head chief of the  territory in order to trap there?  No.  Until you stopped about three years ago, did trapping  take up all your time every winter?  Oh, I've — no, I just go out there at — sometimes,  and the rest of the time I'm busy.  In the summertime  I'm working for Mary Ingram as a gardener. 12  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q  Now, how many years did you work at the sawmill?  2 A  I've — I've worked on the sawmills for a long long  3 time, and I worked the Timber-line for nine months and  4 then I went to Gordon Leary's and I worked there for  5 about a year or one summer and I just keep moving  6 around.  7 Q  Well, if you spent a lot of time trapping, that would  8 interfere with your work at the sawmill, wouldn't it?  9 A  Well, what I did when I was trapping I was working for  10 Mary Ingram and it was in the summertime, spring and  11 summertime, late spring and summer, and I wasn't  12 trapping then.  13 Q  Do you say you weren't trapping when you were —  14 during the years you were working in the sawmill?  15 A  No.  I wasn't trapping when I was working.  16 Q  And when you worked — when you were pole cutting did  17 you do that instead of trapping in those years when  18 you were pole cutting?  19 A  Did you — did you do that instead of trapping?  20 Q  Instead of trapping. Yes.  21 A  Oh, no, I didn't trap.  22 MR. GRANT:  Just a second. Just a second.  Can we go off the  23 record?  24 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  25 (BRIEF RECESS)  26 MR. MACAULAY:  27 Q  How long did you work on the extra gang?  28 A  I started in the wintertime and then I quit in April  29 when I went out trapping.  Just about over a year.  30 Q  And how many years did you do pole cutting?  31 A  A long time. At times a whole winter.  32 Q  Is pole cutting done mostly in the winter?  33 A  Yes.  3 4 Q  And how many years did you work on the sawmill?  35 A  It's — the pole cutting is done in the summer too.  I  36 was working in Kitwancool at one time for Solomon  37 Marsden and also for Williamson.  3 8 Q  Did you ever work for Bell Pole?  39 A  No.  40 MR. MACAULAY:  How many years did you work at the one sawmill  41 or another?  42 MR. GRANT:  Continuously you mean?  43 MR. MACAULAY:  No, not necessarily continuous.  44 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  45 THE WITNESS:  Okay.  It's — the longest I worked at a mill was  46 nine months and it's Kitsegukla.  It's at Kitsegukla  47 mill known as Timber-line, and I quit because of I 13  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 just about broke my legs.  2 MR. MACAULAY:  3 Q  Was that —  4 A  I did slashing when the road was being put in towards  5 Rupert and I slashed there for about two summers.  6 Q  You worked for other sawmills apart from Timber-line?  7 A  Yes, lots.  8 Q  And did you work for more than ten years at one  9 sawmill or another?  10 A  I think he misunderstood my question.  He said he  11 worked all over the place and at the sawmill.  He even  12 went to near a place called Pendleton Bay where he  13 worked for about three months.  Timber-line was the  14 longest I worked at a sawmill.  15 Q  Did you ever have a registered trapline, a trapline  16 registered in your name?  17 A  No.  I told his partner, Peter's partner, that I  18 didn't have anything to worry about being asked about  19 traplines because I don't have any registered  20 traplines.  21 Q  Do you remember that the price of furs fell sharply  22 after 1951?  23 A  Yes.  Yes.  I remember a long time ago that the fur  24 went down.  The marten was $30, so was the beaver, and  25 even though this happened I still went out, and in  26 those days the things were cheap, the sugar and tea,  27 flour, those were all cheap, and so was the tobacco,  28 which was only 75 cents for one of the containers.  29 Q  After 1951 did you make your living, earn your money  30 mainly in logging?  31 A  That was the time they had a machine at Bulkley Canyon  32 there, like when we were making poles this machine  33 just took the bark off the poles there and they didn't  34 need that many people anymore and I didn't go working  35 making poles then.  36 Q  Well, did you earn your living — until you stopped  37 working just a few years ago, did you earn your living  38 mainly at sawmills?  39 A  He said well, I was always working different —  40 different jobs and it's been a few years since I got a  41 pension and I don't work anymore.  42 Q  You mentioned working as a gardener. Where was that?  43 A  I've did a lot of jobs in the summertime.  I worked at  44 Mary Ingram's.  I did her garden for her.  I planted  45 vegetables, I planted flowers.  I did this for three  46 summers, and I also worked at — for a man called  47 Halverson where I used to make wood. 14  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q  Did Halverson live at Kitwanga?  2 A  It's — Halverson lives towards Xsu gwin ya'a, known  3 as Gisa mouan.  In English it's known as Salmon River  4 Road.  This is where Halverson lives.  5 Q  Was Steve Robinson Wagil Wii before you took that  6 name?  7 A  Yes.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  And did you take the name?  9 MR. GRANT:  For the record, the witness was continuing his  10 previous answer.  11 THE WITNESS:  When he took the name Spookw he gave me the name  12 Wagil Wii when Johnson Alexander passed on.  13 MR. MACAULAY:  14 Q  Did you receive that name at the feast?  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  And did you — at that feast what did you have — you  17 contribute either in dollars or in goods, the value of  18 goods?  19 A  There was a lot of — I spent a lot of money.  I don't  20 remember how much.  I spent a lot of merchandise and I  21 spent a lot of goods, food at this feast, and I don't  22 exactly remember how much all of it cost me.  23 Q  How long was that that you took the name?  24 A  No, it's a long time since, and it's — this man died.  25 Q  In those days did you keep a feast book with a list of  26 all the contributions to the feast?  27 A  They usually have books where the expenses are put on  28 and where — which is known as the Hawal.  They  29 usually have these books.  30 Q  Is there a — have you got a book or has anybody to  31 your knowledge got a book listing the expenses for the  32 feast where you took your name?  33 A  I'm not sure. They might — Steven might have a book  34 that they have these things — the expenses written  3 5            down on on these books.  Maybe Steven has one.  I  36 don't know.  37 Q  Do you know a place called Xsa an laahl? That's X-s-a  38 a-n 1-a-a-h-l.  3 9        A  Can I have a look at that?  40 MR. GRANT:  Say it again.  It's in his notes.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  It's Thomas Wright.  42 MR. GRANT:  X-s-a.  43 MR. MACAULAY:  44 Q  X-s-a, and then another word, a-n, as in "an",  45 1-a-a-h-l.  46 A  Xsa an laahl.  Xsa an laahl.  47 MR. GRANT:  Thomas Wright referred to this. 15  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  In his commission evidence. Yes.  2 MR. GRANT:  Xsa an laahl.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  4 Q  Volume 1 page 23 8 is where I took it from.  5 A  And what was the question?  6 Q  Does he know a place having that name?  7 A  Xsa an laahl belongs to Miluulak.  Belongs to  8 Miluulak.  It's — there's another one — there's  9 another place called Xsan Ha'k and it's between —  10 between Xsa ga mahlit and Xsa ga gyoowit.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  Do you have any rights, any hunting or other  12 rights, at either of those two places?  13 MR. GRANT:  Xsa na laahl or Xsan Ha'k?  14 MR. MACAULAY:  15 Q  Yes.  16 A  No. We — I don't go on there.  My father lived at a  17 place called Saquist, and there's another place that  18 we — where we go is Gynim na gaats, and there's a  19 mountain there Lip Skanisit.  This is where my father  20 was.  21 Q  When did you leave Kisgagas?  22 A  A long time ago when my father passed on we decided to  23 move here.  24 Q  And why was that?  25 A  It was very hard for us to live without our father.  26 Q  Well, is that the only reason that the family moved to  27 Gitanmaax is because your father died?  28 A  Yes.  It was too far out.  There was a lot of people  29 that died there and there was no doctor, around like  30 Tommy Wii Minosik and Mary and Kathleen all died out  31 there because it was too far from the doctor.  32 Q  Was Gyetm galdoo the head chief of Gitanmaax when you  33 were small?  34 A  Yes.  35 Q  Okay.  Is Gyetm galdoo the head chief of Gitanmaax  36 today?  37 A  Yes.  38 Q  Can you tell me what territories are on the boundaries  39 of An djam Ian?  40 A  He said which — which side.  41 Q  Well, on the south side.  42 A  Spookw has a territory near there, but I — there  43 was — there's a place called Xsu will luu gasxwit.  44 It's at 18 Mile Creek and the — there's a territory  45 that belongs to Ben McKenzie.  46 Q  What is his chief's?  47 A  There used to be a man that used to hunt on this 16  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 territory and his name was Billy Green, James Green's  2 father.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  But what house, what wilp, owns the territory  4 that's south of Gyetm galdoo territory at An djam Ian?  5 MR. GRANT:  Stop him so you can translate.  6 THE WITNESS:   I am not sure that — who is really on the south.  7 There's one that belongs to Yagosip which is known as  8 Maxhl da ganit, and Steven and I and Neil talked about  9 this, and we also talked about Jim Robinson, and he  10 died on this territory in the springtime.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  12 Q  What house did Jim Robinson belong to?  13 A  I — I just completely forgot which house he belonged  14 to.  He was the brother of Bob Robinson and that's  15 Jimmy's — Steve Robinson's father.  16 Q  And one more question.  17 A  Just a minute. Okay.  I really don't know which house  18 they belong to, but I know Bob Robinson's name was Ax  19 goodim satsawit, and Jim Robinson's name was 'Na goos  20 goosxw.  21 MR. MACAULAY:  And what house has the territory west of Gyetm  22 galdoo's territory, that is, between Gyetm galdoo's  23 territory and the Bulkley River?  24 MR. GRANT:  On the south shore of the Suskwa you're looking for?  25 MR. MACAULAY:  26 Q  Yes, south of the Suskwa.  27 A  There was an old lady there that lived and her name  28 was Gawasawx.  She — they lived — this was across  29 from 9 Mile and this was the mother of Donald Mowatt.  30 Q  And what house did she belong to?  31 A  They're of the fireweed clan.  I'm not sure whose  3 2 house they belong to.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  Thank you, Mr. Green.  I'm finished.  34  3 5 CROSSzEXAMINATIQN_BY_MRA_MACKENZIE:  36 Q  Mr. Green, did you used to trap up at the Xsu wii axw  37 Sustat River?  38 A  Yes.  I went there with Jack Wright. We went there  39 November and we came home in March.  40 Q  Did you ever go up there with Albert Wright?  41 A  No.  42 Q  I wanted to ask you some questions about some of the  43 places up near the Xsu wii axs. Do you know the creek  44 Gwiis xsi gwin gyella'a?  45 A  Where's that? Yes.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Which house owns the land on that creek?  47 MR. GRANT: Which side or — I just want you to be clear as to 17  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 what you're referring to.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q  Which houses own the land, which house or houses, own  4 the land on that creek?  5 A  Part of it belongs — I think part of it belongs to  6 Wii Gaak.  7 Q  Does — did Sim Xsaan have a boundary on that creek?  8 A  What was the question?  I don't know.  9 Q  Did Sim Xsaan have a boundary on that creek?  10 A  He doesn't know what Sim Xsaan is, and maybe he  11 said — did you say luu min xsan?  12 Q  No.  Do you know what — the house of Albert Wright's  13 father?  14 A  This is Jack Wright's father. Albert Wright.  15 Q  What's Albert Wright's name?  16 A  He can't remember.  17 Q  Is it Sim Xsaan?  18 A  Sim Xsaan.  19 MR. GRANT:  That would be S-i-m?  20 THE WITNESS:  No, it's S-i-m.  Sim JCsaan is X-s-a-a-n,  21 underlined "xn.  That was his name, Sim Xsaan. What  22 he said was he — this Sim X.saan, that's the father of  23 the Wright brothers, them Henry and all his brothers.  24 He passed on and there was no one to take over the  25 territory to use the territory so Henry was the one  26 that used it, that was using this territory.  27 MR.   MACKENZIE:  28 Q  And Sim Xsaan was in Lax See'l?  29 A  Yes.  30 Q  And he owned the territory at Xsi gwin gyella'a?  31 A  Not right at Xsi gwin gyella'a.  It's farther on past  32 Xsi gwin gyella'a, and Henry was the one that  33 registered this trapline.  34 Q  And Henry Wright is Lax Gibuu clan?  35 A  Yes.  36 Q  Okay.  I guess I better ask that question again.  Did  37 I ask that — was that question answered?  38 A  It was.  39 Q  Henry Wright is in the house of Wii Gaak?  40 A  Yes.  The reason why Henry was on this land is because  41 the house depleted.  Peter Brown died, Peter Wright  42 died, Albert Wright died, and there was no woman in  43 the house, so there was a depletion there and this is  44 why Henry was on this territory here.  45 MR. GRANT: You said Peter Brown and Peter Wright. Did you mean  46 just Peter Wright? Alice, I was just asking you —  47 THE WITNESS:  Yes, I know, but I wanted to ask him.  Brown. 18  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 He's Peter Brown.  They all died, Peter Brown and  2 Albert Brown, and this is the relative of Albert  3 Wright.  They all passed on.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q  Do you know the lake Da'am xsi gwin gyella'a?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  Let her get the spelling for that.  8 A  When we go to Xsi gwin gyella'a we usually go to — we  9 usually go over the place called T'sim T'aaltxwit.  10 Q  And Sim JCsaan owned that lake?  11 A  Yes, I think so.  12 Q  Do you know the mountain T'sim T'aaltxwit?  13 A  Yes.  This is — this is where we go when we're going  14 to Xsi wii axs. We go to the Maxhl Hla ganit and then  15 we go up to T'sim T'aaltxwit.  16 MR. GRANT:  Stop for a minute.  Just wait.  Okay.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:   Sim Xsaan owned that area?  18 MR. GRANT: Which area are you talking about, the mountain area?  19 THE WITNESS:   T'sim T'aaltxwit?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q  Yes.  22 A  Sim Xsaan's boundary is Xsi gwin gyella'a.  23 Q  Sim Xsaan is west of that river?  24 A  Yes.  25 MR. GRANT:  I think it's a creek, but —  26 MR.   MACKENZIE:  27 Q  Yes.  I beg your pardon.  Do you know the lake Da'am  28 atii dii dawdit?  29 A  Yes.  It's — I know this lake.  It belongs to — I  30 think it belongs to Gunanoot.  31 Q  Does that lake belong to Nii Kyap, the house of Nii  32 Kyap?  33 A  Yes.  34 Q  And I just note that I was referring and our  35 interpreter was referring to a data sheet prepared by  36 Mr. Sterritt where that Gitksan name is attributed to  37 a lake called Drift, D-r-i-f-t, Lake.  3 8 One more question I wanted to ask you about those  39 lakes.  Da'am Similo'o. Who owns Da'am Similo'o Lake?  40 Is it Xsi tin? The answer is yes.  41 A  There was a man named Isaac Brown that used to hunt  42 goats on — they're from the fireweed clan.  They used  43 to hunt goats on the mountain.  Gwin wigiixw is the  44 mountain, and that was — that was at the end of that  45 Da'am Similo'o.  This was where they were hunting.  46 MR. GRANT:  Tell him you can't translate when he goes too fast.  47 THE WITNESS:  Okay.  The — at Da'am Similo'o above there 19  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 there's people own places there.  Mary McKenzie has  2 that A nanim goot and Luu lax. yansit, and then there's  3 this man, I forgot his English name, but his Indian  4 name was Wahlaw.  He owned that Luu lax loobit, and  5 then Tsiwuus owns that Luu ska hadaaxwit, and Goosoxw  6 Haxw — Goosoxw Haxw is — part of it belongs to  7 Tsiwuus and Xsan gookhlaw, and Xsan dap matxw belongs  8 to Wagil Wii, and that's around the lake Da'am  9 Similo'o.  There's a place called Luu min axs.  Luu  10 min axs and Xsi tin are the places that are there too,  11 and I think somebody registered a trapline there by  12 the name of — his name — his last name was Johnson,  13 but I forgot his first name. And Tsiwuus also has  14 a — has a territory called Goo d'a gantxwit.  15 Tsiwuus' territory Goo d'a gantxwit.  There was a lot  16 of goats there.  Okay.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q  I just want to ask you a couple of questions. Wagil  19 Wii has territory?  20 A  Yes.  He's got that Xsan gookhlxw and Xsan dap matxw.  21 Q  Is that just north of Kisgagas?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  And does Xsan dap matxw flow into Xsi tin?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  And Wagil Wii owns Xsan dap matxw?  26 A  Yes.  These were the territories that went with the  27 name when Dania Skawil gave the name to my mother.  28 Q  Does Wagil Wii have his own house?  29 A  Yes.  This happened thousands of years ago.  There was  30 this house known as T'sim gaak where Wagil Wii was in  31 and Wagil Wii had to move out because this house was  32 too full, and that's the reason why he moved.  33 Q  And are there any other chiefs in the house of Wagil  34 Wii now?  3 5 A  Nobody now.  I — there was chiefs, and I don't know  36 how many chiefs were in there before.  37 Q  So are you now the only chief left in the house of  38 Wagil Wii?  3 9 A  Maybe he misunderstood.  40 MR. GRANT: Just a minute.  Just a minute. Of course I  41 anticipate — I understand — I don't object to your  42 question. What I am concerned about right now is  43 that, depending on how much longer you're going to be,  44 his responses — and I mean, we've now gone for two  45 and a half to three hours.  If you think you're going  46 to be a bit longer, that's fine, but I think we should  47 take a break then and — 20  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes. Well, I'm not going to be more than a  2 couple questions.  3 MR. GRANT: Well, if you're two more questions, then that's  4 fine.  I'm not trying to press you. You're obviously  5 fully entitled to a full cross, but I think it should  6 also be meaningful.  7 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I agree.  8 MR. GRANT:  In the sense that he should not be exhausted.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  I agree.  10 MR. GRANT:  If you think you can do two more questions and  11 finish, then —  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 .       Q  Yes.  Yes.  14 A  There is a lot of us, my sister's children, my  15 grandchildren, my sister's grandchildren.  There's a  16 lot of us now today.  17 Q  These are the members of the house of Wagil Wii?  18 A  I do not know what's going to happen because we are in  19 Neil's house and we have to ask him if we want to  20 revive this house again.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:   Okay.  22 MR. GRANT:  The witness in that last answer has expressed  23 some — I don't — his expression was such that it  24 concerned me about him being tired. That's all.  He  25 was —  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  I have no further questions.  27 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Maybe we can go off the record for a minute.  28 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  29 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH RECESS)  3 0 MR. MACKENZIE:  31        Q  Mr. Green, your wife's name was Emma Green?  3 2 A  Yes.  33 Q  She passed on now?  34 A  Yes.  3 5        Q  And your son's name was Rennie Green?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  And your wife Emma Green had a registered trapline?  38 A  Yes. When Dania Skawil gave this — gave Charlie  3 9 Clifford senior this, where they usually hunt beaver,  40 Charlie Clifford senior transferred it to Emma and  41 this is what she's holding now.  42 Q  And Emma transferred the trapline to Rennie?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q  Did Emma ever trap on that trapline?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  Does Rennie ever trap on that trapline?  47 A  No. 21  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 MR. MACKENZIE:   I'm showing you a transfer of that trapline  2 apparently signed by Rennie Green senior.  Can you  3 identify Rennie's signature on that document?  4 MR. GRANT:  Before you — the document is put to the witness, to  5 Mr. Green, I object as this document appears to be one  6 that — this transaction appears to be one that  7 occurred after October 1984, but go ahead.  8 THE WITNESS:   Yes, that's his signature.  9 MR.   MACKENZIE:  10 Q       Mark   that  as  an  exhibit,   please.  11 A       Rennie   said  that  he was   going  to  build a  cabin  at   this  12 place  here we're   talking about.  13 (EXHIBIT 1:   B.C.   trapline  registration dated October  14 10,   1985)  15 MR.   MACKENZIE:     Exhibit 1   is  a  British  Columbia   trapline  16 registration dated October 10,   1985,   for   trapline  17 number   06 0 8T029.  18 And  I'm now  handing  to you a  document  dated  19 October 1,   19 85,   which appears   to be  a  relinquishment  20 of   trapline   apparently  signed by  Emma Green.     Can you  21 identify   that   signature?     Same objection?  22 MR.   GRANT:     Same  objection  applies.  23 THE WITNESS:        Yes,    that's   Emma.      Uh-huh.  24 MR.   MACKENZIE:       Mark  that  as  the   next  exhibit,   please.  25 (EXHIBIT 2:   Relinquishment  of   trapline  signed by  Emma  26 Green)  27 MR.   MACKENZIE:      I  have  no  further questions.  28  29 RE-EXAMINATION BY   MR.   GRANT: .  30 Q       Okay,   David,    I just  have  a  few  questions   to  ask you  31 and   then we'll  be  finished.  32 First   of   all,   what  house   is Wagil  Wii   in  today?  33 A      We  are with —   today we  are with Wii  Gaak.      There's  an  34 adaawk   that  goes with   this  name Wii  Gaak.  35 Q       Okay.      I'd like   to ask you about   something  else,    if   I  36 can.     You mentioned An  djam  Ian,   and when Mr.   Macaulay  37 asked you,   you  said it  is  a lake.     Is An  djam Ian  3 8 inside   the   territory of  Gyetm galdoo?  39 A       Yes.  40 Q  And have you ever been to An djam Ian, that is, to the  41 lake?  42 A      No,   I just went   to a  part  of   it,   but  I  seen  the whole  43 lake when we were  on  the  helicopter,   and  it's  —   it's  44 a big lake.  45 Q  You were asked by Mr. Mackenzie — I'm sorry, by Mr.  46 Macaulay, of whether you heard about part of An djam  47 Ian territory belonging to Spookw in earlier times, 22  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  and whether part of that territory was given by Spookw  to Gyetm galdoo because of a bewitching. Okay.  I  haven't asked a question yet. You can translate that.  Do you know of a territory near An djam Ian that  was given by one chief because of a witchcraft event?  Yes.  Okay.  Just wait.  Yes.  I heard about this story that happened long long  time ago.  It was the — it belonged to Spookw to  begin with.  Now it belongs to — it's in Walter  Wilson's hands now.  It was given to this man named  Paul Awaagasxw because he was — they were scared of  him and he was a witchcraft and this is why they  handed this territory to — piece of land to him.  And  that was Spookw's to begin with.  Did this happen before or after the white men arrived  in the Gitksan territory?  A long long time ago before the white man.  You were asked about your hunting and trapping by Mr.  Macaulay. When did you — between 1929 and three  years ago, were there any years in which you did not  trap?  No.  You were asked about Xsa an laahl, X-s-a, one word,  a-n, second word, 1-a-a-h-l, third word, by Mr.  Macaulay.  Did you ever hunt goats in Xsa an laahl or  Xsan Ha'k?  No.  Okay.  You referred to Xsan Ha'k where your father  lived when you were asked about Xsa an laahl.  Did  your father or you hunt goats there?  No, not there.  Past there.  Okay.  So was it near there that you hunted goats when  you say "past there"?  It's — it's far from Xsan Ha'k.  It's on Miluulak's  territory.  This is where my father used to hunt  groundhog and this is where Ts'etsawit was murdered  because he trespassed on Miluulak's territory. And  this man was a tall man about — they said he was  about — almost ten feet long.  You mentioned that Bob Robinson held the name Ax  goodim Ts'etsawit.  Do you remember who holds that  name today?  Yes.  Steven Robinson's wife Irene.  That's Eileen?  Is it Eileen?  Eileen.  You were asked by Mr. Mackenzie about the transfer of 23  D. GREEN (Plaintiff)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  or cne proceedings nerein to tne  best/ of my/ skill and ability.  j£M$lA'MM!U.   1 Emma's registered trapline to Rennie. Why did your  2 wife transfer it to Rennie?  3 A  She's old now and she could not go and look after the  4 territory, and besides, she's a woman and Rennie is  5 the man and he is strong, so he — that's the reason  6 why the transfer was made.  7 MR. GRANT:   Those are all my questions, Mr. Green.  Thank you  8 very much.  9  10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  11  12 I hereby certify the foregoing to  13 be a true and accurate transcript  14 of the proceedings herein to the  15  16  17  18 Taiiita S. French  19 Official Reporter  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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