Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Pat Namox British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 17, 1989

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 <3Jn tl\t Supreme Court of Jirttigl] Columbia  (BEFORE THE HONOURABLE THE CHIEF JUSTICE)  No 084 3  Smithers Registry  Smithers, B.C.  March 17. 1989  BETWEEN  DELGAMUUKW, also known as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  AND  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants,  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT OF PAT NAMOX  S. RUSH, Esq;  J.M. MACKENZIE, Esq;  J.A. MACAULAY, Q.C.  Appearing for the Plaintiffs  Appearing for HMQ of the  Province of British Columbia  Appearing for the Attorney-  General of Canada  11111  wm\ INDEX  WITNESSES FOR THE PLAINTIFFS  NAMOX, PAT (Plaintiff)  Cross-examination by Mr. Mackenzie  Cross-examination by Mr. Macaulay  Re-examination by Mr. Rush  PAGE  1  15  18 INDEX TO EXHIBITS  Number Description  Page Number  672-1        Affidavit of Pat Namox sworn March 3,  1989 1  672-2        Application for registration of a trapline  dated November 10, 1981 10  672-3        Band council resolution dated June 11, 1980 12  672-4        Band council resolution of Moricetown Band  dated September 10, 1979 13  672-5        John Namox interrogatories map 14  672-6 FOR ID  Map entitled "Territory of Wah tah kwets" 14  i i 1  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1  2 March 17,   1989  3 SMITHERS,    B.C.  4  5 (INTERPRETER:  George Holland)  6  7 PAT NAMOX, one of the Plaintiffs  8 herein, having been duly sworn,  9 testified as follows:  10  11  12 MR.   RUSH:     We're   ready   to  proceed with  the  examination  of   Mr.  13 Pat  Namox  on  his  affidavit   sworn March 3rd,   19 89,   and  14 Mr.   Namox's  evidence will  be   translated by  Mr.   George  15 Holland,   who's  here,   and   I  think it's agreed  need  not  16 be   sworn himself   to   interpret.     Just   to  advise   for   the  17 sake  of   the   record  that  in  the  room as well   are  Mr.  18 Charlie  Austin and Mrs.   Margaret Austin.     And we  can  19 proceed   I   think.  20  21 CROSS-EXAMINATION  BY   MR.   MACKENZIE:  22 Q       Mr.   Namox,    I  represent   the  provincial   government.     My  23 name   is  MacKenzie.      I'm placing before you  a  copy   of  24 an  affidavit   sworn March 3,   19 89.      Is   that your  2 5 affidavit?  26 A       Yes,   that's  it.  27 MR.   RUSH:     Do you want   to mark  that   in  the  proceedings  as  67 2-A?  2 8 Would  that make   sense?  29 MR.   MACKENZIE:      Or would you  like   to   do   67 2-1?  30 MR.   RUSH:     That's   fine with me.  31 MR.   MACKENZIE:     Just  because we may   have  several.  32 MR.   RUSH:     No  problem.  33 MR.   MACKENZIE:     So   that will   be  Exhibit 67 2-1.  34  3 5 (EXHIBIT 672-1:  Affidavit  of   Pat  Namox  sworn March 3,  36                                 19891  37  3 8 MR.   MACKENZIE:  3 9 Q       Mr.   Namox,   was   that  affidavit  translated  to you before  40 you  swore   it?  41 A       Yes.  42 MR.   RUSH:     We will  be  providing a  translation affidavit.      I  43 haven't been able   to prepare  it  just yet,   but we will  44 get  one   in due  course   from Mr.   Holland.  45 MR.   MACKENZIE:  46 Q       What  is your  chief's  name?  47 A       Gasgabahs. 2  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Q       And  the   spelling  for   that,   please?  2 MR.   RUSH:      It's  in  the  affidavit   spelled G-a-s-g-a-b-a-h-s.  3 MR.   MACKENZIE:  4 Q       And you  are  a   sub-chief   in  the  house  of Wah  tah  kwets?  5 A       Yes,   one  of   the  chiefs   there.  6 Q       And who are   the  other  chiefs   in  the  house   of  Wah   tah  7 kwets?  8 A       Hagwilnegh,   Wah   tah k'eght.  9 MR.   RUSH:      It's   number 68   on   the   plaintiffs'   list.  10 THE WITNESS:        And Wah   tah  kwets.  11 MR.   RUSH:     That's 69.  12 MR.   MACKENZIE:  13 Q       And you  say —  which  clan are you  in?  14 A       Laksilyu.  15 Q  And are there any other houses in the Laksilyu clan?  16 A  Kwah Beah Yax, G' en egh l_a Yex.  17 MR. RUSH:  Kwah Beah Yax.  18 THE WITNESS:   Tse kai kal kai yax.  19 MR. RUSH:  Kwah Beah Yax I can spell is K-w-a-h B-e-a-h Y-a-x.  20 G'en egh l_a Yex, G-'-e-n e-g-h 1^-a Y-e-x, and the last  21 was Tse kai kal kai yax, and that is T-s-e k-a-i k-a-1  22 k-a-i y-a-x.  23 MR.   MACKENZIE:  24 Q  And you have given me three chiefs' names.  Do you  25 know any other chiefs in the Laksilyu clan?  26 A  Gidum Skanist, Max lax lex.  27 MR. RUSH:  G-i-d-u-m S-k-a-n-i-s-1, Gidum Skanist.  M-a-x 1-a-x  28 1-e-x, Max lax lex.  29 MR.   MACKENZIE:  3 0 Q  Can you think of any others?  31 A       Yax.  32 MR.   RUSH:      Y-a-x.  33 THE W.ITNESS:        Ka'kl.  3 4 MR.   RUSH:      K-a-'k-l.  35 THE WITNESS:     There  is  a  lot  of   names  that  I  can't  recall  36 momentarily,   but  the  ones  that   I have mentioned  are  37 the more  higher  chiefs.  3 8 MR.   MACKENZIE:  3 9 Q       And which  house   is  Max  lax  lex  in?  40 A       G' en egh l_a  Yex.  41 MR.   RUSH:     That's  the   second of   the   two houses  that   I   spelled  42 for you.  43 MR.   MACKENZIE:  44 Q       Now,   Mr.   Namox,   you  live  at   the  Moricetown Reserve  45 now?  46 A      Yes,   that's where  I  live.  47 Q       And how  old  are you  today? 3  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 A Sixty-five.  2 Q And you have recently retired from the Canadian  3 National Railway?  4 A Yes, last summer.  5 Q And how long  did you work for   the  railway?  6 A Thirty  years.  7 Q And what were your duties when you were working for  8 the  railway,   in  general?  9 A All  we  did was  fix  the  roadway   for   them  and  that's  all  10 we've  been doing  all   over  the  place.  11 Q Before you  started working  for   the  railway,   whom did  12 you work  for?  13 A Hanson Timber  Company.  14 Q And what  did you  do when you worked for Hanson's?  15 A I  didn't work  for  him myself,   but   I worked  for   the  16 people   that were  subcontracting  for   that   company.  17 MR.   MACKENZIE:       And what  products  did  that  company  make?  18 MR.   RUSH: Which  company?  19 MR.   MACKENZIE:  20 Q Hanson1s.  21 A They made cedar poles and ties also.  22 Q Before you worked for Hanson's what occupation did you  23 have?  24 A Before   that   I was  out   trapping with my   father.  25 Q So have you worked  for  any  other —   sorry,   have you  26 worked at  any   other   occupations   in your  career  besides  27 those we've mentioned?  28 A I've  also worked on   sawmills  occasionally,   wherever   I  29 got  a  job.  30 Q And  I  understand  that you're  currently   the  church  31 chief   at  Moricetown?  32 A Yes,   I am.  33 Q How long have you had that position?  34 A I think it's almost three years now.  3 5 Q Who had that position before you?  36 A Peter Alfred.  37 Q What are the duties of that position?  3 8 A Our job would be if some of the church members are not  3 9 doing the right thing, and then our job is to go and  40 talk to them and rectify any problems.  41 Q Are you a member of a registered trapline?  42 A Yes, I'm also included in that.  43 Q And where is your registered trapline?  44 A McDonell Lake.  45 Q You are a member of the house of Kwah Beah Yax;  46 correct?  47 A Yes, I'm one of them. P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Q       Where  are   the   territories  of   the  house  of   Kwah Beah  2 Yax?  3 A       Sde  keen  t'aat.  4 MR.   MACKENZIE:        Better   get   a   spelling  for   that,   please?  5 MR.   RUSH:     What's   that?  6 THE WITNESS:        Sde  keen   t'aat.  7 MR.   RUSH:     Just  put  a  one  on  that.      I'm  not quick  to  give you  a  8 spelling.  9 MR.   MACKENZIE:  10 Q  Where's that location?  11 A  McDonell Lake.  12 Q  Where are the other territories of the house?  13 A  Kilwoneetz, Dennis Lake.  14 Q  Now, you say Dennis Lake.  Is that what you mean by  15 Kilwoneetz?  16 A  Yes, same area.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:   Did you need a spelling for Kilwoneetz?  18 MR. RUSH:  K-i-1-w-o-n-e-e-t-z.  Did I say K-i-w or K-i-l-w?  I  19 meant to say K-i-l-w.  20 MR.   MACKENZIE:  21 Q       Where  are   the  other   territories  of   the  house?  22 A       Round Lake,   Coos  Tl'aat.  23 MR.   MACKENZIE:       And a   spelling for  that?  24 MR.   RUSH:     That's  in  the  affidavit.     C-o-o-s,   new word,  25 T-l-'-a-a-t.  26 MR.   MACKENZIE:  27 Q  Are there any other territories of the house?  28 A  There's other areas that belong to the Laksilyu clan,  29 but all these areas have belonged to other chiefs.  30 Q  And can you use those other Laksilyu clan areas?  31 A   It's always been like that in the past that when they  32 talk about it then we are allowed to use it.  33 Q  Does the Kwah Beah Yax house have, a crest?  3 4 A  Yes, they do have a crest.  3 5 Q  And what is the crest of your house?  36 A   It's a frog.  37 Q  Does the house have any crests other than that crest?  3 8        A  Yes, that's the way it is.  39 Q   I'm sorry, I didn't hear that?  40 A  That's — they are like that.  41 Q  Are there any other crests?  42 A  I know of caribou, wahdsi.  43 Q  Are there any other crests of the house?  44 A   I'm not sure of the other crests.  45 Q  Does Wah tah kwets have a personal crest?  46 A   I'm not aware of Wah tah kwets'.  All I know is the  47 frog. 5  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Q Wah   tah kwets   is your brother John Namox?  2 A Yes,   my  brother.  3 Q When  did you  receive your  name?  4 A It's  a  long  time  ago.      It's about   ten years  ago.  5 Q And did you  receive your  name  at  a  feast?  6 A Yes,   that's where   I  got  it.  7 Q And did you make  a  contribution at   the  feast   to   take  8 your  name?  9 A Yes, I contributed.  10 Q And how much did you contribute?  11 A At that time expenses weren't so high.  I spent about  12 3, $400.  13 MR.   MACKENZIE:       You were   telling me  about   the  house's  14 territories  and you  told me about  McDonell   Lake.  15 MR.   RUSH:     McDonell.  16 MR.   MACKENZIE:  17 Q McDonell Lake, Dennis Lake, and Round Lake.  Are there  18 any other territories owned by your house?  19 A In our house it's — they are the only ones.  20 Q Which chief is the highest chief in the Laksilyu clan?  21 A Gidum Skanist and Wah tah k'eght.  22 Q Gidum Skanist is higher than Wah tah k'eght?  23 A Yes, that's the way it is.  24 Q And who holds the name Gidum Skanist?  25 A Willie Simms.  26 Q Which house is Willie Simms in?  27 A G'en egh la Yex.  28 MR.   RUSH:     That's   the   second  of   the   two.  2 9 MR.   MACKENZIE:  3 0 Q Did you have another name before your present name?  31 A No, I didn't.  32 Q The   name you  have  now   is   the  first  chief's   name you  33 have  held?  3 4 A Yes,   that was   the  only  name.  3 5 Q You  also were  once  a member of   the  Alfred  Namox  36 registered  trapline?  37 A Yes, I was also included on there.  3 8 Q And that was a registered trapline near Goosley Lake?  3 9 A Yes.  40 Q Alfred Namox was your father?  41 A Yes, that was my father.  42 Q And in your youth you trapped on the trapline near  43 Goosley Lake?  44 A Yes, that's where we were trapping.  45 Q When did you become a member of the McDonell Lake  46 trapline?  47 A It was shortly after my father passed away. 6  P. NAMOX (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q Was that about 1977?  2 A Yes, about that time.  3 Q Who's trapping at McDonell Lake today?  4 A I've trapped out there and also David Dennis' grandson  5 are trapping around the Dennis Lake area.  6 Q And when was the last time you were there trapping?  7 A Winter last year.  8 Q And when was the last time before winter last year?  9 A Since I was included in that trapline.  Louie Joseph  10 used to come along with us.  We trapped out there  11 quite a bit.  12 Q Before 1988, when was the last time you were trapping  13 at McDonell Lake?  14 A ' 87 .  15 Q Do you  trap —   after 1977   did you   trap anywhere  else?  16 A Yes.      I   trapped  out  in —   out  in my —   on my wife's  17 territory.  18 Q Your wife is Lucy Namox?  19 A Yes.  20 Q Her  name  is  Goohlaht?  21 A Yes,   that's  her.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Which territory did you trap in along with your  23 wife?  2 4   MR. RUSH: Just a moment.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Do you want a spelling for that?  26 MR. RUSH: Goohlaht is 12 in the plaintiffs' list, and I can  27 spell it, G-o-o-h-l-a-h-t.  2 8    MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q Which of your wife's territories did you trap on?  30 A Around Morice Lake.  31 Q And can you say where — which part of Morice Lake you  32 are trapping at?  33 A Both side of the — where the lake is.  3 4 Q Do you know that the Morice River flows out of the  3 5 north end of Morice Lake?  36 A Yes, I know.  37 Q Where were you  trapping  in relation  to  that?  3 8 A We  go past  the  outflow  of   the lake and we  go way  above  3 9 that  on  the  other   side.  40 Q You1re  on  the  —  you're  on  the  north-west   side  of   the  41 lake  or  on  the  south-east   side  of   the  lake?  42 A Yes,   we  go  to  the — we  go  to  the  east  side  first  and  43 the west   side   is  larger.  44 Q Do you  do any  hunting?  45 A No.  46 Q Have you ever done any hunting?  47 A I never go hunting up there. 7  P. NAMOX (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  Did you go hunting anywhere?  2 A  Yes, I've hunted up around our own territory around  3 the McDonell Lake area.  4 Q   Do you hunt anywhere else?  5 A  Yeah, I've also hunted around the Moricetown area.  6 Q   And which animals do you hunt?  7 A       Xeda.  8 MR.   MACKENZIE:'      What   type   of   animal   is   that?  9 MR.   RUSH:     Just  a moment.     What's   the Wet'suwet'en  name,   please,  10 Mr.   Holland?  11 THE WITNESS:   Xeda.  12 MR. RUSH:  Xeda?  13 THE  WITNESS: Xeda.  14 MR.   RUSH:      Thank you.  15 MR.   MACKENZIE:  16 Q       What  does   that mean  in English?  17 A       It's   the   name  of   the animal.  18 Q       What's   the  English  name  for  that  animal?  19 A       It's moose.  20 Q       And where  around Moricetown did you  hunt  moose?  21 A       Across  from Moricetown  and  up  on  the  hills.  22 Q       You mean on  the  east   side  of   the Bulkley  River?  23 A       Yes,   around  there.  24 MR.   MACKENZIE:       And whose   territory  do you hunt moose   in?  25 MR.   RUSH:     Excuse me,   in respect  of   this  particular  event   or —  26 MR.   MACKENZIE:     That  he's   speaking  about,   yes.  27 MR.   RUSH:     Maybe  just  clarify   that  because   it wasn't   clear   to  2 8 me.  29 MR.   MACKENZIE:  3 0 Q       You  said you  hunt moose  east  of   the Bulkley  River.  31 Whose   territory  do you hunt moose  in  there?  32 A       It's  Laksilyu  territory.      It belongs   to Wah   tah  k'eght  33 and Ha  de  kha max,   who's  Bazil   Michell.  34 MR.   RUSH:     The  first   is  68  on  the  plaintiffs'   list.   Ha  de  kha  35 max  is  — we'll   get you a  spelling for   that.      I  think  36 it's H-a d-a k-u m-a-x,   I  think,   Ha de  kha max,   Bazil  37 Michell.  3 8 MR.   MACKENZIE:  3 9 Q   In your affidavit you speak about the Round Lake  40 territory;   correct?  41 A      Yes,   that's   the  area   I  speak of.  42 Q      When was   the last  time you were  in  the  Round Lake  43 territory?  44 A      There's  a  road going  through   there  and we   travel  45 through  there quite  often,   and  I  know where   the  area  46 is.  47 Q   Highway 16 goes through that area? 8  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes,   it  goes   through  there.  And  is   that   the  road  that you   travel   on?  Yes,   that's —  we  travel   through  there.  And have you  been  in  the  Round Lake   territory  off  Highway 16?  Yes,   I've —   yes,   I've   travelled off   the  road  around  Coos  Tl'aat  ben  territory.  When was   that?  Yes,   there's  roads  around a lake  and in  the   summertime  we   travel   through  there quite  often.  When was   the  last   time you were   in  that   territory?  About   two,   three years  ago.  When was  the  last   time before   that you were   in  the  Round Lake   territory?  A long  time ago,    I was  pretty  young  then,   when  I  used  to   travel   through  there and Round Lake Tommy  used  to  live  there  and we  set  up camp  there.     That was when we  travelled  through  there   right by  the  lake.  And when was   that?  I was  pretty  young  that   time.      I  couldn't  remember   the  date,   but   I was  about   six  or  seven years  old when we  used  to  travel   through  there.  You  said Round Lake  Tommy  lived  there.     Did he  live  there when you were   six or   seven years  old?  Yes.     They  had a house   there.     That's where   they  used  to live and  they  always  came back  to  that  place.  Well,   Round Lake  Tommy  had another house  didn't  he?  Yes,   he  lived at   that  place by  the  lake  and  then he  also had a  place across Wedzen Kwe where —   that's  where  he  had  another  house.  Round Lake  Tommy  actually  owned land down   south  of   the  Round Lake   territory?  He  owned  that   territory and he  had farm land  elsewhere;   is  that what you're   talking about?  Yes.     Down around Barratt;   is   that  correct?  Yes,   I know  of   that.  Yes.     You know  that Round Lake Tommy  had  received  Crown grant  land from  the  government  down  near  Barratt?  I don't know how he come about that farm land there,  but I do know he lived there and he raised stock  there.  He had a large piece of land there.  So you never trapped on the Round Lake territory, did  you?  No.  And you haven't travelled around the boundaries of the  Round Lake territory, have you? 9  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 A I  never walked around  the boundary,   but   I —   I was  2 told about  the boundary  itself.  3 Q Okay.     Who  told you  about   the boundary?  4 A Louie  Tommy.  5 Q When did he tell you about the boundaries?  6 A It was at the village at Moricetown.  He used to come  7 in and visit us and he used to tell us about these  8 places.  9 Q So  do you  know where  Tl'ooliits  Yanlii   is?  10 A Yes,   I know where  it  is.  11 Q Where   is  that?  12 A It's —   it's  along  the  highway,   and  the  river  comes  —  13 the  creek comes  down and  it's  called Deep  Creek.  14 Q Do you know  two lakes  at   the  head of  Deep Creek?  15 A No,   I  know  of   two lakes   in   the  Round Lake   territory.  16 Coos  Tl'aat  and Dzii  Ben.  17 MR.   RUSH:     The  first  is  C-o-o-s,   new word,   T-l-'-a-a-t,   and   the  18 second  is  D-z-i-i,   new word,   B-e-n.  19 MR.   MACKENZIE:  20 Q And do you know who is — who has registered traplines  21 in the Round Lake territory?  22 A Peter Jim holds the registered traplines in that area.  23 Q And do you know that — do you know if any white  24 people have registered traplines in the Round Lake  25 area?  26 A I  heard about   that,   but   I don1t know who  it   is.  27 Q Who's   the —   I'm  sorry,   do you know who  the  28 neighbouring  territories  are?  29 A Yes,   I know who holds   territories  around   there.      The  3 0 Indian people.  31 Q Which  house  holds   the   territory   to  the   south  of   the  32 Round Lake   territory?  33 A Smogelgem.  3 4 Q Do you  know  Florence  Hall?  3 5 A Yes,    I  know   her.  36 Q Do you know  that  she has a  trapline  around Walcott?  37 A Yes,   I know  of   that.  38 Q Do you know  that her  trapline  goes  into  the Round Lake  3 9 territory?  40 A It  sits  parallel   to   it.  41 Q Florence Hall   is  Chief  Kweese?  42 A Yes,   she's  Kweese.  43 Q And  she  is  in  the  Tsayu  clan?  44 A Yes,   Tsayu.  45 Q And her trapline is on the southern boundary of the  46 Round Lake territory; is that correct?  47 A Yes, it's on that side. 10  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1  MR.  2  3  4  MR.  5  6  7  8  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  MR.  38  39  40  41  42  MR.  43  MR.  44  MR.  45  MR.  46  MR.  47  MR.  MACKENZIE:       Okay.     Do you want   to  take  a  short break  now?  I've  got   some  documents   to  file  and  not   too many more  questions.  RUSH:      Good.      Sure.  (BRIEF  RECESS   TAKEN)  MACKENZ IE:  Q       Now,   Mr.   Namox,    I understand  that Johnny  David plans  to pass  his  name,   Max lax lex  to you;   is   that  correct?  A       He  has   spoken  to me  about   it  and  that  is within  his  plans,   and how   that's  going  to   take  place   I don't  know.  Q       Will   you  —   if   you  take   that  name Max  lax  lex,   will  you  receive   territory with  that   name?  A       That   is   the way   they  have  done   it  in  the  past  traditionally.  Q      Which  territory would you  take?  A      Wherever  Max lax lex  is  entitled  to  territory.  Q       Do you happen  to know which  territory Max lax  lex  is  entitled  to?  A       I —   I don't  really  know   the   territories   itself.  Q       Now,    I wanted  to ask you  a  few questions  about   the  McDonell   Lake  registered  trapline.     Do you  know   if  Louie Joseph  tried  to  sell   that   trapline   to Wally  Forsythe   in 1979?  A       Yes,   I  know  of   it.  Q       And Louie Joseph was  a member  of   the  registered  trapline  at  that   time?  A      Yes,   I know  of   that.  Q       And Louie Joseph  is  a Wet'suwet'en person?  A      Yes,   he was Wet'suwet'en.  Q       I'm  showing   to you an application for  registration of  a  trapline  dated November  10,   1981.     Can you  identify  your  signature  on  that,   please?  A      Yes,   that's my  name.  MACKENZIE:       Exhibit  672-2,   please.  (EXHIBIT 672-2 :  Application for  registration  of   a  trapline  dated November 10,   1981)  RUSH:     Can you  give  us  a  copy  of   that —  MACKENZIE:   Yes.  RUSH: — please, front and back?  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  RUSH:  Thanks.  MACKENZIE: 11  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Q       I   think we  have —   I'll   certainly  give you  another  2 one.  3 As you  say,   you became  a member  of   that  McDonell  4 Lake —  McDonell  Lake   trapline  in 1987;   correct?  5 A  Yes.  6 Q  And you know that in 1980 George Joseph gave John  7 Carlson, C-a-r-1-s-o-n, permission to trap on that  8 line?  9 A       No,    I didn1t  know  about   that.  10 Q       George Joseph was   the  head man on   that   trapline  before  11 you   took over,   wasn't  he?  12 A       Yes,   I know  of   that.  13 Q       And  he was  a member  of   the  Lake  Babine  Band,   wasn't  14 he?  15 A      Yes,   he belonged  to   that band  at   that   time.  16 Q       He  lived down on Burns Lake?  17 A       Yes.     He  lived  there.  18 Q       Were  you  consulted when —   or   sorry,   did George Joseph  19 ever   speak  to you  about  leasing  the   trapline   to white  20 people?  21 A       No.  22 Q  Now, is George Joseph a Babine person?  23 A  No, he wasn' t.  24 Q       You   say  he was Wet'suwet'en?  25 A       Yes,   he was Wet'suwet'en.  26 Q       Were you  ever  a member  of   the  Moricetown Band  Council?  27 A       Yes.  2 8 Q       And your brother John Namox was  also  a band  councillor  29 for many years?  30 A      Yes.     He was  a member  there  a while back,   and how   long  31 he was   there   I don't  know.  3 2          MR.   MACKENZIE:        I'm  showing  to you a band council   resolution  of  33 the  Moricetown Band dated June 11,   19 80.     Can you  3 4 identify   that  as   the band council   resolution  that  3 5 appointed you head man of   the McDonell Lake   trapline?  36 MR.   RUSH:     Just  —   excuse me,   just  before you answer,   the  37 resolution does  not  use your language  of   "appointed".  3 8 The  resolution  says,   in paragraph 2,   "be   it  therefore  39 resolved  that John Baptiste Namox,   band member 67,  40 Moricetown Band,   born June  02,   1923,   be  head man  of  41 the  company".      If   there's  anything  that you mean by  42 the  use  of   the   term  "be  appointed"   I just   think  that  43 should be  asked of   the witness.      If you  don't mean  44 anything particular by   that,   then  I  don' t  have  any  45 problem with  the question.  46 MR.   MACKENZIE:  47 Q  Okay.  Can you identify this band council resolution 12  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 as   the  one  by which you became  head man of   the  company  2 at   the  McDonell  Lake   trapline?  3 A Yes,   that's   the  one.  4 MR.   MACKENZIE:       Next  exhibit,   please.  5  6 (EXHIBIT 672-3 :   Band council   resolution  dated June  11,  7 19~80l  8  9 MR.   MACKENZIE:  10 Q You  are  also  known  as John Baptiste  Namox?  11 A Yes,   that   is what my   name  is.  12 Q And are you aware   that   that band  council   resolution  13 Exhibit  67 2-3  was   sent   to  the  Fish and Wildlife  Branch  14 for  action?  15 A Yes,   I'm aware.  16 Q Do you have  any  knowledge  at  all   about white  people  17 trapping  on  the  McDonell  Lake   trapline?  18 A No,   I wasn't aware  of   it.  19 Q Now,   you  know  Frank  Patrick?  20 A Yes,   I know  him.  21 Q And  he lives  in  Smithers?  22 A Yes,   that's where  he  lives.  23 Q And which clan does he  belong   to?  24 A I  don't  know.  25 Q His name is Wah tah kwets?  26 A Frank Patrick?  27 Q Yes.  2 8 A Yes, I know him.  29 Q Which clan is he in?  3 0 A In the Laksilyu.  31 Q Is he a member of your clan?  3 2 A Yes, he is of our clan.  33 Q And  does he  have a  claim  to your   territory,   your  3 4 house's  territory?  35 A Yes,   he  also has  rights   to  it within our house.  36 Q And he   speaks your  language?  37 A He  speaks our language.  3 8 Q He  attends your  feasts?  39 A Yes.     He  comes and helps  us.  40 Q And he also —  well,   he  has the  name Wah   tah kwets?  41 A Yes,   he  also has   the  name Wah  tah kwets.  42 Q How does his  name differ —   sorry,   how does  his  status  43 differ from your brother,   John Namox,  who  also has   the  44 name Wah  tah kwets?  45 A Yes,   he  is Wah  tah kwets when he was —  he  lived out  46 in Babine  before,   and that's where he  received  that  47 name,   so as  a  result  of   that he  is Wah  tah  kwets  for 13  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 the  Babine  area.  2 Q       Now,   I want   to  ask you  some questions  about   the   Peter  3 Jim  registered   trapline.     Now,   Peter Jim worked  for  4 this  CN  Railroad for  a long  time,   didn't  he?  5 A       Yes.  6 Q       And he  recently   retired?  7 A       Yes.     He quit working   there before  his  retirement.  8 Q       Speaking about   the  Round Lake   territory,   there  are  9 white  farms  on   that   territory?  10 A       Yes,   there's quite  a  few white  people  have  farms   in  11 the  area.  12 Q       And  there   is  logging on  that  territory?  13 A       Yes,   they've  logged  in  the  area.  14 Q       I  understand  that  Peter Jim worked for   the   CN  for  15 about 35   years;   is   that  correct,   as  far  as you're  16 aware?  17 A       Yes,   I  know.  18 Q       I  understand he   said  there wasn't much   time  for  19 trapping when he was working for  the  railway.     Was  20 that   the  case  for you also?  21 A       I was  in   the   same  position and we  didn't   trap  all   that  22 much.  23 Q       I'm  showing  to you  a band council   resolution  of   the  24 Moricetown Band  dated  September  10,   1979.      Can you  2 5 identify  your   signature  on  that  copy?  26 A       Yes,   that's mine.  27 MR.   MACKENZIE:        Next   exhibit,   please.  28  29 (EXHIBIT 672-4 :   Band council   resolution  of   Moricetown  30 Band dated  September 10,   1979)  31  3 2 MR.   MACKENZIE:  33 Q       And can you  confirm  that   that  is   the band  council  34 resolution resolving  that   Peter Jim be head man  of   the  3 5 company   at   the  Round Lake   trapline?  36 A      Yeah,   that's —   that's where  Peter Jim was  to be   the  37 head man  in  the Quick area.  3 8 Q       And are you aware   that  that band council   resolution  39 was  sent   to  the  Fish and Wildlife branch  for  40 processing?  41 A       Yes.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:   At Lucy Bazil's commission we filed John  43 Namox's interrogatory questions, 58-A, 59-C, and 63,  44 as Exhibit 82 8, and part two of two maps as Exhibit  45 82 8-A.  I'm now submitting John Namox interrogatories,  46 map, part one, as an exhibit in these proceedings, and  47 I think that I'm submitting it to be marked in these 14  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 proceedings  because   this  is  the Round Lake map.  2 MR.   RUSH:     You're   submitting a  document which appears as,   and  3 I'm quoting,   set  of   two maps  of   territorial  boundaries  4 of   the house  of Wah  tah kwets,   in brackets,   John  5 Namox,   part  one   of   two,   marked draft  copy.  6 MR.   MACKENZIE:      Yes.  7 MR.   RUSH:     Do you  have  an  extra  copy  of   this?  8 MR.   MACKENZIE:      Yes.  9 MR.   RUSH:     Thank you.     And  this   is Exhibit 5   of   the   sequence?  10 MR.   MACKENZIE:      Yes.  11 MR.   RUSH:     Thank you.  12  13 (EXHIBIT 672-5 :   John Namox interrogatories map)  14  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm going to show you another map which I'm  16 handing to Mr. Rush entitled "Territory of Wah tah  17 kwets" dated May 13, 1987.  18 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  19 MR.   MACKENZIE:  20 Q   I'm just going to show it to Mr. — Mr. Namox, this  21 map is entitled Territory of Wah tah kwets, in  22 parenthesis, K'hay La'h.  Have you ever seen this map  23 before?  24 A   I've never seen this map before.  25 Q   Is K'hay La'h the name of a chief in the house of Wah  26 tah kwets?  27 A       K'hay  La'h  is  a  name within the Laksilyu,   and  I'm  not  2 8 exactly  sure where   she  fits  in.  29 MR.   RUSH:      It's   spelled here  K-'-h-a-y,   new word,   L-a-'-h.  3 0 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   This map that we are looking at depicts a territory  32 surrounding Topley.  Does Wah tah kwets have a  33 territory surrounding Topley?  3 4         A  Not that I know of.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mr. Rush, this hasn't been identified, but I  36 would submit it for marking as an exhibit for  37 identification.  3 8 MR. RUSH:  No problem.  3 9 MR. MACKENZIE:  So that would be Exhibit 67 2-6 for  40 identification.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 672-6   FOR  ID:  Map entitled  "Territory  of Wah  43 Tah  Kwets")  44  45 MR.   MACKENZIE:  46 Q       Your   sister's  name  is   Sarah Tait?  47 A       Yes. 15  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 Q       Did your  father Alfred Namox have a cabin  near   the  2 Moricetown Reserve?  3 A  Yes, he had a house there.  4 Q  Was that outside the reserve?  5 A  Yes.  There was another reserve.  That's where he had  6 another house.  7 Q   So you say his house was on a reserve?  8 A  Yes.  9 MR.   MACKENZIE:        I've  finished my  cross-examination.  10 MR.   RUSH:     Just  before you   start,   Mr.   Macaulay  is   the  lawyer  for  11 the  Attorney-General   of   Canada,   and he   is  entitled  to  12 ask questions  at   this  cross-examination as well.  13  14 CROSS-EXAMINATION  BY  MR.   MACAULAY:  15 Q       Mr.   Namox,   did your house have  its  long house  at  16 Hagwilget?  17 A       It was  long before  our   time,   and we were   told  about  18 it.  19 Q  Was it called the House beside the Fire?  20 A  They use that name Kwah Beah Yax wherever they travel.  21 Q  Do you know it was next to a Gilseyhu house called the  22 Dark House?  23 A  Yes.  Yex Tsowil_ Gus, Dark House, is a house belonging  24 to Gilseyhu.  And the way they had it I don't know  2 5             about.  26 MR. MACAULAY:   At the feast who are the people who sit on your  27 right and on your left, that is, the feast of your  2 8 house?  29 MR. RUSH:  If I can just interject, you mean at a feast where  30 Mr. Namox is the guest?  31 MR. MACAULAY:  Guest, yes.  32 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Fine.  Perhaps just explain that.  33 THE WITNESS:   They all have seats according to their names and  34 they all have different seats.  3 5 MR. MACAULAY:  36 Q       But who do you,   you yourself,   sit  next   to when you're  37 a  guest at  the  feast?  3 8 A      Legiboo,   Peter Jim,   sits  beside me.  3 9 Q       And on  the  other   side,   who   sits  on  the  other   side?  40 A       I know   the  person.      I  know   the  person.     Always   it's  41 Axgot.  42 MR.   RUSH:     That's  like  A-k-'-k-o-o-t.  43 .      MR.   MACAULAY:  44 Q  Does that mean heartless?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q       Did your  house  have  a  crest  that was  the Hudson Bay  47 Company   flag? 16  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Macaulay  1 A No, I don't know of it.  2 Q You never heard that?  3 A No.  4 MR.   RUSH: What   is   the  Hudson Bay  Company   flag?  5 MR.   MACKENZIE:      I  think   I  know what  it  is.     With a  bear  in   the  6 middle?  7 THE WITNESS:       Whenever we  have  feasts   there's  no Hudson Bay  8 people  around.  9 MR.   MACAULAY:  10 Q Does your house have a fishing station at Hagwilget?  11 A I was pretty small at the time when we were down  12 there.  They had smokehouses and they had fishing  13 stations, and — but I can't really recall because I  14 was pretty young that time.  15 Q Did you ever fish yourself at Hagwilget?  16 A I was too small at the time.  Only my father went  17 fishing then.  18 Q Did your father live at Hagwilget at one time?  19 A Yes, they also lived there at one time.  20 Q When did he move to the Moricetown area, your father?  21 A Before they resided in Moricetown they always  22 travelled back and forth between the two places.  23 Q When did your father establish a permanent residence  24 at Moricetown, near Moricetown?  25 A Could have been around 1940.  26 Q And did you move to Moricetown with him and live with  27 him in 19 — around 1940?  2 8 A Yes, I was with them.  29 Q Did your house  have  fishing  stations  at  Moricetown?  30 A Yes,   they  had fishing  station.  31 MR.   MACAULAY:       And was   it — were  the  fishing   stations  on  the  32 east   side  of   the  river  or   the west   side  of   the  river?  33 MR.   RUSH: Just  a  second.     That  distinction may  not  be   relevant  3 4 in  terms  of   his  understanding  of  directions.  3 5 MR.   MACAULAY:     How about  railroad  side and other  side?  36 MR.   RUSH: That's  fine.     Some  other means —   or   the  highway  37 side.  3 8 MR.   MACAULAY:     Highway   side  and other  side.  39 MR.   RUSH: Yes.  40 MR.   MACAULAY:  41 Q Well, I'll ask the question again.  Were these fishing  42 stations on the highway side of the river or the other  43 side of the river?  44 A It's on the highway side.  45 Q Have you fished there yourself?  46 A Yes, I've fished for a lot of salmon in there.  47 Q Is that with a gaff? 17  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Macaulay  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  Yes.  Do you still fish there in the fishing season?  I don't go fishing anymore, but somebody always goes  fishing for us.  What are — who makes the arrangements for the  appointment of a person to go fishing for you?  I always appoint somebody younger, stronger, younger  people like my grandson.  He always goes fishing for  us.  What   is your  grandson's  name,   the  one who  goes   fishing  for you?  Herbie Naziel.  And what house does he belong to?  He's of Gilseyhu.  Yes,   but   that's  his  clan.     What  house  does  he  belong  to?  I always get mixed up in the houses.  Did your brother John Namox have contracts with the  Department of Fisheries to clear the Bulkley River of  obstacles?  Yes, he's done that.  Was your brother John Namox ever  a  Fisheries  guardian  at Moricetown?  Yes,   he was  one   summer.  Is  there  a Wah  tah kwets  house   in the Babine  country?  Yes,   it's  the   same  out   there.     They  also have  a house.  And does  that  house  have  the  same chief's  names  as  your house?  Yes,   it's much   the   same.  And  do  the members  of   that house  have  rights  on your  house's  territories?  Yes,   they  can  come  and have  the   same  rights  because  of  being  similar  house.  And do you have   rights  in Babine  country  and   the  territories  of Wah  tah kwets   in  that Babine   territory?  Yes,   they would be  aware  of  it  if   I was  to   travel  there,   and they would  treat me  the  same way  as we  would  them.  Have you ever  either  fished or   trapped  in Babine  country?  No.  Do the members of the Wah tah kwets people in Babine  country, do they speak the same language as you do?  Yes, we speak the same language.  And do people with chief names in your house, that is,  Wah tah kwets, in Babine country come-to feasts at  Moricetown? 18  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Macaulay  Re-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1 A       Yes,   they  come  and  they  help us  always.  2 Q       When your house  puts  on  a feast,   as  the host   of   a  3 feast  do  they  help?     Do  they  assist your  house  at  4 putting  on  the  feast?  5 A       Yes,   they  come  and help  us.  6 MR.   MACAULAY:        Those  are my questions.     Thank you,   Mr.   Namox.  7 Shall  we break  for  lunch?  8  9 RE-EXAMINATION  BY  MR.    RUSH:  10 Q       Well,    I'm going   to  do   some  redirect.  11 I  get   to  ask you  some questions  now,   Mr.   Namox.  12 Frank  Patrick  is Babine Wah  tah kwets;   is   that   right?  13 A       Yes,   he's Babine Wah  tah kwets.  14 Q       That's 69.     Wah  tah kwets.  15 Does Babine Wah  tah kwets  have  separate   territory  16 in  the Babine?  17 A       Yes,   they   have   territories  of   their  own up   there.  18 Q       Do you  know   the  names  of   the  other  chiefs  in Babine  19 Wah  tah  kwets'   house?  20 A       I  know  of   some.  21 Q  What are their names?  22 A   In Indian?  23 Q  Yes.  24 A  Axgot.  25 Q  A-k-'-k-o-o-t-s?  What's the pronunciation again?  26 A  Axgot.  27 Q   Axgot?  2 8 A   A-x-g-o-t.  29 Q  A-x-g-o-t.  Okay.  30 A  Gyetlets.  31 Q  Gyetlets.  I'll have to try a spelling on that.  Are  32 those the two you remember, Mr. Namox?  33 A  Them are the ones.  Them ones are that I can remember.  3 4 Q  All right.  Now, I want to ask you about Peter Jim.  35 Peter Jim, you said, sits beside you at the feast hall  36 when you're a guest in Moricetown — at a Moricetown  37 feast?  3 8 A  Yes, he sits beside me.  3 9 Q  And you told us his name was Legiboo?  40 A       Legiboo.  41 Q       Yes,   and  that's   spelled L-e-g-i-b-o-o.     It's been  42 mentioned a  couple   of   times.  43 Now,   is Legiboo a  chief's  name?  44 A       Yes,   it's a  chief's  name.  45 Q       Okay.     And  is   Peter Jim —   is  Peter Jim  in your  house  46 Kwah Beah Yax?  47 A       Yes,   he's  a member  of  Kwah Beah Yax. 19  P. NAMOX (Plaintiff)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  Okay.  And is Legiboo a chief's name in the house of  Kwah Beah Yax?  Yes, he's a chief of there.  Okay.  Now, do you sit — when you sit as a guest at a  feast, do you sit in the back row?  We sit in the front row.  Okay.  And who do you sit in front of?  Wah tah kwets.  Is that your brother John Namox?  Yes, that same person.  Okay.  Now, I just want to ask you about Peter Jim  again.  You said that Peter Jim was the head man in  the Quick area.  Is Quick a village, the name of a  village?  When  they  go  to  hunt  and  trap  in  the  Coos  Tl'aat  area,  the  clan members   they  go  to live   there,   and   that whole  area  is within Coos  Tl'aat area   territory.  Quick  is  in  the  Coos  Tl'aat  territory,   Coos  Tl'aat  territory?  Yes,   Quick  is within Coos Tl'aat   territory.  That's  C-o-o-s — we've been  talking  the   same —  T-l-'-a-a-t.     Mr.   Macaulay can you give me   the B.C.R.  please which we  had marked as Exhibit 672-4?     It's   the  one   involving  Peter Jim.     Thank you very  much.  On  one  of   the  documents marked earlier,   Exhibit  67 2-4,   this   is   the band council   resolution where   it  was  resolved  that  Peter Jim be  the head man of   the  company,   and it  describes  a  trapline,   a  registered  trapline,   by  its  co-ordinates.     Part  of   this,   and   I'm  going   to  read  to you,   says:  "It  is whereas Louie Tommy  is  deceased be   it  therefore  resolved  that  the  name  of   the  trapline  be  changed  to  Peter Jim  and Company  trapline. "  That's  the  first  paragraph  I've read of   that  B.C.R..     Okay.     My question,   Mr.   Namox,   is   that   the  same Louie  Tommy who was  the  former Wah  tah kwets who  instructed you about  the   territory?  Yes.     That's  the  same person,   Louie Tommy,   who was Wah  tah kwets.  Thank you.     You  told Mr.   Mackenzie   that   there  had been  logging on  the   territory  at  Coos  Tl'aat.     Did you  see  the  logging and  the —  did you  see  the  logging  there?  Yes,   I've  seen it.  Okay.     And when you  saw   the  logging,   what was   the   land 20  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Re-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1 like  after   the  logging?  2 A       Yes,   it was  a large   tract  of  land  that was —   that was  3 logged off.  4 Q  What did it look like?  5 A  There was no timber whatsoever.  It was — it looked  6 like a big field.  7 Q  At the very beginning of the questioning this morning,  8 Mr. Namox, Mr. Mackenzie asked you about other chiefs  9 in Wah tah kwets' house and you said that Hagwilnegh,  10 Wah tah k'eght, and Wah tah kwets, were those chiefs,  11 and I want to ask you if those are chiefs of the  12 Laksilyu clan or are they chiefs of Wah tah kwets'  13 house?  14 A       They're   the  chiefs within  the  clan.  15 Q       You were  asked about your  father,   Mr.   Namox,   and what  16 was your mother's  name?  17 A       Josephine.  18 Q       Okay.     Did  she  have a  name  in Wah  tah kwets'   house?  19 A       She had —   she  also had a  chief   name.      It  just   slipped  20 my mind for   the moment.      I'll   remember  after.  21 Q       Okay.     You were asked about  Sarah,   your  sister,   Sarah  22 Tait?  23 A       Sarah Tait.  24 Q       Yes.      Sarah Tait   is your  sister?  25 A       Yes,   that's my   sister.  26 Q       Okay.     And  is   she —   is   she  older   than or younger   than  27 you?  2 8 A       She's  older   than myself.  29 Q       Okay.     And  is  she  in  Kwah Beah Yax?  30 A       Yes,   that's where  she belongs.  31 Q       Okay.     And  does  she  have a  name  in Kwah Beah Yax,   a  32 chief's  name  in Kwah Beah Yax?  33 A       Yes,   she holds   the   same   name  as   the  one my mother  had.  3 4 Q       Okay.     And  the  name  of  your  sister  and your mother  3 5 slipped your mind,   has  it?  36 Mr.   Namox,   I'll  ask you just  a couple  other  37 questions.     You were asked about when you  travelled  3 8 through  the   territory  of   Coos Tl'aat Ben and you  said  39 that you went along  the  road  there.     You went —  40 travelled along  the  road.     I wanted to ask you  if  you  41 travelled  through  the   territory  in  the   train?  42 A      Yes,   I  travelled  through  there  on  the  train.  43 MR.   RUSH:       Those  are all  my questions.     Thank you,   Mr.   Namox.  44 That's  all.  45  46 (PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED)  47 21  P.   NAMOX   (Plaintiff)  Re-exam by   Mr.   Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  I hereby  certify   the   foregoing  to  be a   true and accurate   transcript  of   the  proceedings  herein.to   the  best  of  my  skil}/  and abil/ity.  LA..  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter

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