Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Herbert Wesley British Columbia. Supreme Court Dec 15, 1988

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 <3n ti\z gtuprtmz Court irf jBritwlj Columbia  Ha  0843  Smithers Registry  Smithers, B. C.  December!5, 1988  BETWEEN:  AND:  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MA3ESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  HERBERT WESLEY ^n ti\t £uprtmt Court of ^Snticlj Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry Smithers,. J. C.  J December!s, 1988  BETWEEN  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN HULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  AND:  HER MA3ESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  HERBERT WESLEY  M. Adams, Esq.        appearing for the Plaintiffs  D.O. O'Byrne, Esq. and appearing for Her Majesty the  Ms. T. Sigurdson      Queen in Right of the Province  of British Columbia  M.W.W. Frey, Esq.     appearing for the Attorney  General of Canada INDEX  EXHIBITS  NO  DESCRIPTION  PAGE  1  2  Application for Registration for  Trapl ine  Map, Wesley, Edward & Company  11  11  WITNESS  WESLEY, Herbert  Cross-examination by Mr. O'Byrne  Cross-examination by Mr. Frey  Re-examination by Mr. Adams  1  13  13 1  H.   Wesley   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   0'Byrne  1 SMITHERS,   B.C.  2 December 15,   1988  3  4 HERBERT WESLEY,   a witness   called  5 on behalf of  the  Plaintiffs,  6 having been duly  sworn,   testifies  7 as  follows:  8  9 S. HOWARD: Interpreter previously  10 sworn  11  12 MR. ADAMS:  Just before you begin, I want to state on the record  13 that my instructions with respect to Mr. Wesley are  14 that he has very limited facility in English, that  15 he is not able to read English and further my  16 instructions are that he has no facility in reading  17 maps, and if that might be helpful to get that out  18 of the way off the top.  19 MR. O'BYRNE:  And just before we commence, then, I understand by  20 way of a letter dated December 14th and delivered  21 that same date to Mr. Mackenzie that there were a  22 number of documents produced by Mr. Herbert Wesley  23 to Mr. Grant.  We have not had an opportunity to  24 examine those documents as of yet.  There were four  25 of them listed, four separate documents listed in  26 Mr. Grant's letter of December 14th, 1988.  And in  27 view of that we wish the opportunity to review the  2 8 documents and reserve the right to re-open the  29 cross-examination if we find it necessary.  We  3 0 haven't found the time to examine them.  31 MR. ADAMS:  But you did get them yesterday morning?  32 MR. O'BYRNE:  They were delivered yesterday at some point in  33 time, I believe it was in the afternoon.  We have  34 not had time to examine them yet.  Some of them are  35 written and —  36 MR. ADAMS:  I will reserve the right to argue that you have had  37 an opportunity to review them and no  3 8 cross-examination on them should be available.  39 MR. O'BYRNE:  I will point out that the documents are in English  40 and given what you have just told me about Mr.  41 Wesley he may not even know what he was giving Mr.  42 Grant.  43 MR. ADAMS:  All right.  44  45 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. O'BYRNE:  46 Q   What is your full name?  47 A   Herbert Wesley. A  H.   Wesley   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   0'Byrne  1 Q And how old are you?  2 A 69.  3 Q And what's your date of birth?  4 A April 4, 1919.  5 Q Are you married, sir?  6 A Yes.  7 Q You are retired now, are you?  8 A No, he hasn't worked for a long time.  9 Q When you did work, what type of work did you do?  10 A Poles and logging.  11 Q And where did you do that work?  12 A Right around Gitsegukla.  13 Q On the Gitsegukla Reserve itself?  14 A Yes.  15 Q Did you do any work off of the reserve proper in the  16 territory around Gitsegukla?  17 A I did where there was a sawmill about a mile below  18 the village.  19 Q Would that be east or west or north or south of the  20 village?  21 A Down below the village west.  22 Q Did you do any other type of work?  23 A He worked for the C.N. for about four months.  24 Q How old were you then?  25 A I think I was about 19.  26 Q Did you go to school?  27 A Just for a little while, and I started working.  2 8 Q Can you read English?  29 A No.  No.  3 0 Q Do you understand English when it is spoken to you?  31 A I can hear a little.  I can make out some of it.  32 Q Have you always had to use a translator when you  33 have used English?  34 A Yes.  3 5 Q Have you ever testified in provincial court using  36 only English and not a translator?  37 A I can hear what they are saying.  I can make it out,  3 8 but I am not really good at English.  39 Q Have you ever testified in court without a  4 0 translator?  41 A I can pick up what they are saying, but I'm not  42 really that good.  43 Q Do you remember a time when you had a fish net that  44 got snagged and your son was in Terrace and you had  45 some problems with the fisheries officers?  46 A Yes.  47 Q And you went to court with Mr. Grant on that 3  H.   Wesley   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   0'Byrne  1 occasion, did you?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And that was in 19 84 here in Smithers?  4 A   Probably, but I can't say for sure.  I can't  5 remember the exact date.  6 Q   Did you have a translator with you in court that  7 time?  8 A   No.  9 MR. O'BYRNE:  And you were asked questions by Mr. Grant,  10 you, in court?  11 MR. ADAMS:  I'm going to object to anymore questions along this  12 line.  There is a clear ruling that the witnesses on  13 these cross-examinations will testify in the  14 language they choose and are comfortable in and  15 that's what this witness is doing.  My instructions  16 are as I communicated at the beginning that this  17 witness has some facility in English and that it is  18 limited.  And my own experience with him is that  19 Gitksan is the language that he is comfortable in  20 and that in my position should be the end of the  21 matter.  22 MR. O'BYRNE:  Well, what I'm attempting to establish, Mr. Adams,  23 is that his facility in English in 1984 appears to  24 be quite fluent, and he can certainly use a  25 translator to testify.  26 MR. ADAMS:  And that's what he is doing.  What he may have  27 testified in some other time and some other  28 circumstances is irrelevant.  29 MR. O'BYRNE:  Well, the affidavit is sworn in English, Mr.  3 0 Adams, and there is no affidavit of translator  31 attached to it and that's where I'm going.  32 MR. ADAMS:  Well, you are certainly welcome to ask questions as  33 every witness has been asked about the circumstances  34 of the affidavit.  But Mr. Mackenzie specifically  35 asked the chief justice to cross-examine witnesses  36 in English and was denied that and that is exactly  37 what you are doing here.  3 8   MR. O'BYRNE:  My intention was to establish his facility in  39 English.  I can do it another way, Mr. Adams.  40 Q   Mr. Wesley, I am producing to you what appears to be  41 a four page document, and there is a signature on  42 the last page.  Is that your signature?  43 A   Yes, that's my signature.  44 Q   I'm advised perhaps for the record this is Exhibit  45 607.  And did you sign this document on the 9th day  46 of June, 1988 in Hazelton?  47 A   Yes. 4  H. Wesley (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 Q Was that document read to you by somebody?  2 A Yes.  3 Q Who read it to you?  4 A Neil Sterritt read it to me.  5 Q Was there anybody else present when Neil Sterritt  6 read it to you?  7 A There was quite a few people that were sitting  8 around the table with us, but I can't recall who  9 they were.  10 Q The witness is pointing to somebody else in the  11 room.  12 A Olive was there, and Kathleen.  13 Q And in what language was it read to you?  14 A Neil can use our language too.  15 Q And what language was it read to you?  16 A Our own language.  17 Q And what language is that, please?  18 A Gitksan.  19 Q All   right.     I have  it  straight.     Did Neil   Sterritt  20 read you  this entire four page  document in Gitksan?  21 A Yes.  22 Q And that's Neil John Sterritt, is it?  23 A Yes.  24 Q And did you understand it?  25 A Yes.  I knew what he was talking about.  26 Q How many times did you see this document all printed  27 out like this before you signed it?  2 8 A Just the once.  29 Q And was that the same day that you signed it?  3 0 A Yes.  31 Q Was that the same day that Neil John Sterritt read  32 it to you in Gitksan?  33 A Yes.  34 MR. O'BYRNE:  I want to direct your attention to paragraph 5 of  3 5 the affidavit, and it may be that we will have the  36 translator read paragraph 5 to the witness.  Perhaps  37 you can do that.  Just translate paragraph 5.  3 8   THE INTERPRETER:  Do you want me to read the whole thing?  39 MR. O'BYRNE:  The whole thing, yes, please.  Now, I take it,  40 Madam Translator, you have read all of paragraph 5  41 to him?  42 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  43 MR. O'BYRNE:  44 Q Mr. Wesley, are those your words in paragraph 5?  45 A Yes.  46 Q Did you describe the territory that you have spoken  47 about in paragraph 5 to somebody using those words? H. Wesley (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  A   I have told it often to my family.  Q   Who did you tell it to so it could show up like this  in paragraph 5?  A   I guess Neil typed it up.  I don't know who typed it  up, but I told Neil.  O'BYRNE:  When did you tell Neil?  Just for the record, I  notice that the witness appears to be speaking to  somebody who appears to be in the room and away from  the table.  THE INTERPRETER:  He was asking about how long it was that they  started talking to Neil about the territory, but  they were always with him when they talked to Neil  about it.  MR. O'BYRNE:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Well, Mr. Wesley, do you recall when you spoke to  Neil Sterritt about the territory so he could type  that out?  It might be three or two years.  Are those the — and I'm referring to paragraph 5  which you've been read, are those the words you used  to describe the territory to Mr. Sterritt?  Yes.  Is that description in paragraph 5 correct?  Yes, it's correct.  There is no corrections you want to make to it?  No.  Who did you learn the territory from?  My uncle and another person, Dan Guxsan.  I went out  with him.  Dan Guxsan, is that Daniel Guxsan?  Yeah, Daniel Guxsan.  That was your grandfather, was it?  Yes.  And Peter Mark was my uncle.  And he also held the name Guxsan?  Yes.  What about Mathias Wesley, your brother?  Yes, he had it too.  MR. ADAMS:  Sorry, I'm not clear whether you were  Mathias also held the name or whether  told him about the territory?  :  I am going to ask both questions.  Thank you.  asking whether  Mathias also  MR.  MR.  MR.  O'BYRNE  ADAMS:  O'BYRNE  Q  A  Q  Mathias Wesley also held the name Guxsan?  Yes.  And Mathias Wesley also told you about the territory  that you've described in paragraph 5? H.   Wesley   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   0'Byrne  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And that is the Dam Giist territory?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Also known in English as Gitsegukla Lake?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Did you also learn about the territory from Douglas  7 Wesley?  8 A   No, just Ed.  9 Q   You learned about the territory from your brother,  10 your older brother Ed Wesley?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And is he still alive today?  13 A   No, they have all died.  All five of them.  14 Q   You are the only brother living now; is that  15 correct?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   When you signed this affidavit in June of 1988, did  18 Mr. Sterritt, Neil Sterritt show you a map at the  19 same time?  20 A   No.  21 Q   Have you ever seen a map or what you've been told is  22 a map of the territory described in paragraph 5?  23 A   I don't think so.  24 Q   Did you trap on the Dam Giist territory?  25 A   A lot of times.  26 Q   What is the starting point that you would trap in  27 the southeast corner of the territory described in  28 paragraph 5?  29 A   I would start right at Gaakhl Segyukla in that area.  30 MR. O'BYRNE:  Let's pause for a spelling there.  I am told that  31 may be number 2 on the list of mountains.  Did you  32 know a lake on or near your territory that you've  33 described in paragraph 5 as Taltzen Lake,  34 T-A-L-T-Z-E-N?  3 5    THE INTERPRETER:  Which one is that?  36 MR. O'BYRNE:  It's not on there.  37 THE INTERPRETER:  Is that an English name?  3 8    MR. O'BYRNE:  3 9 Q   I hope it is.  Did you know a lake on or near the  40 territory you've described in paragraph 5 called  41 Taltzen Lake?  42 A   Is it close to Dam Giist or Gitsegukla?  43 Q   I am told that it is east of Dam Giist or Gitsegukla  44 Lake.  45 A   I know there is another lake close to Dam Giist  46 Lake, but I wouldn't know if this is the one or if  47 this is what it's called. 7  H.   Wesley   (for  Plaintiffs]  Cross-exam by Mr.   0'Byrne  1 Q Does your  trapline  start on a lake east  of  Dam Giist  2 Lake?  3 A   No.  The territory starts right at Gitsegukla.  4 That's where the cabins are.  5 Q   Is the dividing line between the territory of Guxsan  6 and the Wet'suwet'en chiefs Gitsegukla Lake or Dam  7 Giist?  8 A   The Gitsegukla Lake and this lake that you are  9 probably talking about is within the boundary of  10 Guxsan.  11 Q   All right.  Is there a lake east of Dam Giist which  12 is within the boundary of the territory of Guxsan  13 that you've described in paragraph 5 of your  14 affidavit?  15 A   There may be another lake — there is Dam Giist and  16 I think this lake and the Sustat within the area of  17 Guxsan.  The only ones I know of S'doosdahl Dak is a  18 small little lake.  19 Q   I believe that's number two on the list under lakes.  20 Where is that lake?  21 A   S'doosdahl Dak is on the east of Dam Giist or  22 Gitsegukla Lake.  23 THE INTERPRETER:  He thinks this lake you are talking about may  24 be Dam Wilp Laxs.  25 MR. O'BYRNE:  Can we have the spelling in.  26 THE INTERPRETER:  It's number 3.  27 MR. O'BYRNE:  28 Q   So you think that Dam Wilp Laxs is on the east side  29 of the territory that you described in paragraph 5?  3 0 A   He thinks that's the one on the east side of Dam  31 Giist.  32 Q   What is the boundary between the territory of Guxsan  33 and the Wet'suwet'en chiefs?  34 A   He thinks it goes down — if this is the right like  3 5 Dam Wilp Laxs and then it goes up — it would be  36 exactly the same as the line on the territory  37 because we never cross over on ours and they  38 don't — they don't cross over into our territory.  39 Q   How far east of Dam Giist is the border between the  40 territory of Guxsan and the Wet'suwet'en chiefs?  41 A   I never go right up to where the boundary is, but I  42 know how far to go and I don't always — I don't  43 cross over.  44 Q   You've never been to the eastern boundary of the  45 territory of Guxsan that you've described in  46 paragraph 5?  47 A   I usually just go as far as the lake. 8  H. Wesley (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 Q   What is the name of the lake that you go as far as?  2 A   The lake that you mentioned earlier that's close to  3 Dam Giist.  4 Q   Is that east of Dam Giist?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And is that the starting point of your registered  7 trapline?  8 A   Yes, I think so.  9 Q   Have you ever been to the southeastern starting  10 point of your registered trapline?  11 A   If you are talking about the area at Segyukla that  12 was where the cabins were and that was the starting  13 point when we go trapping.  14 MR. O'BYRNE: Was the starting point on Gitsegukla Lake or on  15 this other lake to the east of Gitsegukla Lake?  16 MR. ADAMS:  I think he said Segyukla.  17 THE INTERPRETER:  Segyukla that was where the cabins were and  18 that was the starting point when they started  19 travelling.  20 MR. O'BYRNE:  21 Q   Is that an area that is also known in English as the  22 Nipples?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   If that was the starting point of your registered  25 trapline, where was the end of it if you went away  26 from Dam Giist?  27 A   He wants to know if you are asking the width.  2 8 Q   The width?  29 A   Yes.  3 0 Q   All right.  Give me the width.  31 A   It would go up as far as where Dam Giist is.  32 Q   And Dam Giist is Gitsegukla Lake?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   So you would go south and east down from Segyukla  35 down to Dam Giist; is that correct?  36 A   It would go along on the Segyukla.  It would start  37 at the creek Xsan Gokhl and go along on Gaakhl  3 8 Segyukla.  That is Rocky Ridge that is number two on  39 mountains.  40 Q   How long was it — you told me the width, now what's  41 the length?  42 A   It would go a long way.  43 Q   Going the other direction northwest from the same  44 starting point at Segyukla, the Nipples, did you  45 have a registered trapline that went that way?  46 A   Registered trapline.  47 Q   You had registered trapline? H. Wesley (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  MR.  0'  BYRNE  16  17  MR.  ADAMS:  18  MR.  0'  BYRNE  19  MR.  ADAMS:  20  21  22  MR.  0'  'BYRNE  23  MR.  ADAMS:  24  25  26  27  28  MR.  O1  'BYRNE  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  still have a  the one  registered trapline?  still start at Segyukla the  who made it up and it should be  ■55.  the one  that  Mh'm.  Do you  Yes.  Where is — does it  Nipples?  Mr. Cox was  the same.  I heard the witness also say registered  Yeah, it must be Mr. Cox in '55, he was  made the register up in '55.  Now, that trapline that was registered by Mr. Cox in  1955, is that the trapline that you have today, the  registered trapline?  Yes.  :  And is that the trapline that you learned about  from your grandfather Daniel Guxsan?  That's not what his affidavit says.  :  I wasn't asking about his affidavit, Mr. Adams.  As long as that's clear because there isn't any  evidence at this point that he learned about a  trapline from his grandfather Dan Guxsan.  :  No, I was hoping this question would satisfy us.  But it is misleading the witness to ask if he  learned about his territory from his grandfather  Daniel Guxsan and then say is that the trapline that  you learned about from Daniel Guxsan? Well, I want  to clarify it for him.  Well, he doesn't understand English and it hasn't  been translated, but if you feel I should rephrase  the question, I will rephrase it.  The trapline that  was registered in 1955, did someone teach you where  that trapline was?  No.  Have you ever trapped on that trapline?  Yes, we trap there.  We trap there in the fall.  Who did you trap there with?  Ed Wesley and Mathias Wesley sometimes.  And did you trap the full length of that trapline  from one end to the other?  Yes.  And is that trapline on the territory that you were  shown and told about by your grandfather Daniel  Guxsan?  Yes.  And is that trapline within the description that  you've given in paragraph 5 of your affidavit, ±U  H. Wesley (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 that's the trapline that Mr. Cox registered in 1955?  2 A   It should be the same as the registered.  3 Q   But is that — you've been from the southeast corner  4 to the northwest corner of the registered trapline  5 of 1955?  6 A   There are a lot of house members who use different  7 areas of the territory, and we don't just go and use  8 the — well, one person just doesn't go and use the  9 whole area.  Different members use different areas  10 of the territory within the territory of Guxsan.  11 Q   What is the most northern — northwestern point of  12 your trapline that was registered in 1955?  13 A   The registered should have covered the whole area.  14 Q   By the whole area, do you mean the whole area that  15 is shown in paragraph 5 of your affidavit?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Does your registered trapline of 1955 go as far as  18 Sganis' Mehlasxw.  19 A   He can't say for sure whether it is in there or not.  20 It's far away from the — it's far away from the  21 Gitsegukla, the mountain we call Mehlasxw, so I  22 can't say for sure whether it is included in the  23 registered trapline, but Guxsan owns it.  24 Q   Guxsan owns the mountain?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Sganis' Mehlasxw?  27 A   The way it was told to me it was always told  28 verbally, and I know where they are.  It is a  29 hereditary territory that1s been passed on for  3 0 generations and generations.  I know where they are  31 and I know how big the area is.  We never used maps,  32 but I know where it is.  So I can't really tell you.  33 Q   It's very difficult to put into words where the  34 boundaries are; is that correct?  35 A   He is going to tell it.  He says it starts at  36 Segyukla and it goes along the mountain we call  37 Gaakhl Segyukla, that's the ridge.  And up to Dam  3 8 Giist and then it goes around and up towards Sganis'  39 Mehlasxw and it goes around — was inside Guxsan's  4 0 territory and it goes up to Xsan Gokhl and back to  41 the starting point and that's how big the territory  42 is.  43 MR. O'BYRNE: Well, we've been at this for an hour, let's take  44 ten minutes.  45  46 (BRIEF ADJOURNMENT)  47 H. Wesley (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  O'BYRNE!  Q  MR. O'BYRNE  MR. ADAMS:  Mr. Wesley, yesterday or the day before perhaps did  you give some documents to Mr. Grant?  No, I didn't see Peter yesterday.  What about the day before yesterday?  I can advise you that the documents that I presume  you are referring to in Peter Grant's letter to you  were disclosed to me in the course of my preparation  of this witness and passed onto Mr. Grant and  through him to you.  MR. O'BYRNE  Q  A  Q  A  Q  MR.  Did you give some documents then to Mr. Adams?  Yes.  All right.  And amongst those documents was there an  application for registration of a trapline in the  name of Edward Wesley and a map?  Yes.  All right.  Well, I'm going to show you two  documents, and I have a copy for Mr. Adams.  Are  those two of the documents that you gave to Mr.  Adams for Mr. Grant?  A   Yes, these are the ones that he took — he took them  with him last night.  O'BYRNE:  Perhaps I can get those documents marked.  Perhaps  you should mark them separately.  Exhibit 1 would be  application for registration of a trapline, and  Exhibit 2 is a map which has various names on it  including Wesley, Edward and company.  (EXHIBIT 1:  Trapline)  Application for Registration for  MR.  0'BYRNE;  Q  A  Q  A  Q  (EXHIBIT 2:  Map, Wesley, Edward & Company)  On what has been marked as Exhibit 2, the map, there  appears to be some handwriting under Herbert Wesley.  Do you know whose handwriting that is?  After Ed died and I took over for Mathias, then I  took over this territory to make it clear.  Is that your handwriting, Mr. Wesley, and the name  Herbert Wesley?  Yes.  You wrote that in?  After Mathias died this is '55.  All right.  But you wrote your name on what's marked  now Exhibit 2? You wrote Herbert Wesley in this 12  H. Wesley (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  MR.  0'  BYRNE:  8  9  MR.  ADAMS:  '  10  11  12  13  14  MR.  0'  ' BYRNE:  15  MR.  ADAMS:  16  17  18  19  MR.  0'  1 BYRNE:  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  MR.  0  •BYRNE:  area; is that correct?  Yes.  And the area that you wrote it in, I'm drawing a  circle around.  There is a dark circle, is that your  registered trapline?  Yes.  And is that registered trapline that is shown here  fully within the area of Guxsan?  Well, I don't know that he can answer that.  Again  I've advised you off the top that he is not able to  read maps so it may be difficult for him to compare  a boundary shown on a map with a description that he  has given and says that he was given orally.  He can say he doesn't know.  But the question is assuming that he can read the  map.  And my problem is that you haven't established  and indeed I have advised you that he can't read the  map.  When was the last time you saw this map?  When the register was made up in '55.  So well over 3 0 years ago?  Yes.  Have you trapped from one end to the other of your  registered trapline?  We have two cabins at the Segyukla and that is where  we always stay when we go trapping.  This is a  hereditary territory and it wasn't just made up  recently when this trapline map was made up.  Did you ever trap to the west and north of those two  cabins at Segyukla?  Where the cabins are and where the trapline that we  use when I go with Ed Wesley goes up that way at  Segyukla.  It goes up what way?  It goes up Segyukla where the cabins are.  Do you go any further —  It goes up the ridge Segyukla.  That's the trapline  we use when I go up with Ed.  And other people and  other members of the house of Guxsan use other areas  of the territory within the territory.  What other people use that other part of the  territory?  Arthur Sampare, Ed Wesley and Mathias Wesley, they  are all deceased now.  Ben Woods.  There is quite a  few of them.  They all trap within the territory.  I have no further questions. 13  H.   Wesley   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Frey  Re-exam by Mr.   Adams  1 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FREY:  2 Q   Mr. Wesley, I only have one question.  You mentioned  3 at the very beginning when Mr. 0'Byrne was asking  4 you about what you had done for a living and you  5 mentioned pole cutting and logging; is that right?  6 A   Yes.  And we did trapping on the side.  7 Q   Right.  Did you ever work down at Pacific Cannery?  8 A   Is that down the coast?  9 Q   Down at the coast?  10 A   Yes, I went fishing.  11 Q   And how long ago was that?  12 A   It was a long time ago.  I am almost 7 0 years old  13 now, and I think I was about 21 then.  14 Q   Did you go down in the summer?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And how many years did you go down to the coast?  17 A   I think maybe about five years.  18 Q   And did you work on the boats down there or did you  19 work in the cannery itself?  20 A   Inside the cannery.  21 Q   Inside the cannery.  If I said that it was back in  22 the thirties, would that be about right?  23 A   Yeah, I think that might be right.  24 Q   And from the time that you stopped working down at  25 the coast to when you retired, the occupations for  26 which you received an income were logging and pole  27 cutting and you did some trapping on the side?  28 A   Yes, the most part was spent in trapping.  We  29 usually start around October every year and there  30 was quite a few of us who did that.  It would be  31 inside within the territory of Guxsan and the house  32 members.  33 MR. FREY:  Those are my questions.  34 MR. ADAMS:  I've been taken by surprise by such a short cross.  3 5 I would like to take two minutes before I do my  36 re-direct if there is to be one.  37  3 8 (BRIEF ADJOURNMENT)  39  40 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. ADAMS:  41 Q   I just have one question for you, Mr. Wesley.  Just  42 a few moments ago when Mr. 0'Byrne for the province  43 was still asking you questions you said to him that  44 other members of the house of Guxsan used other  45 areas of Guxsan1s territory, and then you mentioned  46 some names.  You mentioned Arthur Sampare.  You  47 mentioned Mathias Wesley.  You mentioned Ed Wesley i4  H. Wesley (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  A  ADAMS;  GRANT:  O'BYRNE  MR. GRANT:  and Ben Woods.  And my question is are those people  that you mention members of the Guxsan house?  They all come from the house of Guxsan.  Thank you.  Those are all my questions.  Now, Mr.  Grant wanted to stay on the record for scheduling of  further witnesses.  I just want to sort this out on the record.  :  Just one second.  I will have to get Miss  Sigurdson or Mr. Mackenzie because I have no  instructions.  Can we stand down for a moment?  Yes, stand down for a minute.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceeding herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  JL4-  LISA FRANK0,' "  /KX~^c£)  A  OFFICIAL   REPORTER  UNITED  REPORTING   SERVICE   LTD.


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