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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-10-18] British Columbia. Supreme Court Oct 18, 1989

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 20993  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 October 18, 1989  2 VANCOUVER, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia this 18th day of October, 1989, in the matter  6 of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my  7 lord.  8 May I remind you, sir, you are still under oath?  9 THE WITNESS:   Yes, I understand that.  10 THE REGISTRAR: And would you state your name for the record,  11 please?  12 THE WITNESS:   David Ricardo Williams.  13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir.  14 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  16 Q   My lord.  17 Mr. Williams, we were in Volume 3, tab 36 and 37,  18 and I understand those relate to the question of the  19 appointment of the chief constable at Hazelton; is  20 that correct?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   The first being Mr. Kirby's application for the post  23 of chief constable and other posts, and the second  24 being Mr. Valleau's recommendation of February 15th,  25 1908, for recommendation that a provincial constable  26 be appointed at Aldermere, having regard to the Grand  27 Trunk Pacific Railway construction that is commencing;  28 is that correct?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And Mr. Valleau also recommends that Mr. Kirby be made  31 chief constable at Hazelton.  32 Before going on to another topic, do you have  33 Volume 2 with you?  34 A   Yes.  If I may, my lord.  35 Q   My lord, if I could refer your lordship to Volume 2  36 and I'm going to refer to the index.  Volume 2 begins  37 with tab 16A, and if you just look at the index for a  38 minute, that's at page 3 of the index, and it  39 continues on down to tab 33B, which is on page 6, my  40 lord.  41 Now, Mr. Williams, with the exceptions of the  42 extracts from the Hazelton Queek, which is tab 16A,  43 Mr. Sergent's petition tab 17B, the extracts from the  44 Omineca Herald tab 17E, Mr. Woodcock's application to  45 build a trail 18B, the Colonist articles at 20B, 20C,  46 21B, 21C, 22A, 23A, that portion of the documents  47 under 24A, being other than the affidavit of value and 20994  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 relationship, the letter under 24B, the Parson's  2 journal under 26.  With those exceptions, are the  3 documents in Volume 2 reports of or entries made by or  4 instructions given by government officials in the  5 course of their duties?  6 A   Yes.  7 MR. GOLDIE:   Now, you can put Volume 2 aside then for a minute,  8 and returning to Volume 3, at pages 15 to 19 of your  9 report under the heading "Judicial Officials", you --  10 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, what page?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  15, my lord.  12 THE COURT:  Thank you.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  14 Q   You trace through the history of the particular people  15 who exercised judicial functions and naming them  16 Thomas Elwyn, Peter O'Reilly, Mr. Fitzgerald, Allan  17 Graham, and --  18 A  And Mr. Vowell.  19 MR. GOLDIE:   And Mr. Vowell and Mr. Fitzstubbs, and you — and  20 Mr. Loring, and you make reference on page 19 to the  21 difficulties between Loring and other J.P.'s.  22 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, just before my friend goes on, I note that  23 on page 15 at line 4 the report itself says, with  24 respect to Mr. Elwyn, whether he exercised the  25 judicial function is not known.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  27 Q   I agree with that, my lord.  I think the witness has  28 given evidence of Mr. Elwyn was in the claims area in  29 his capacity as a magistrate, but whether he had  30 occasion to exercise a judicial function I think the  31 witness stated was not known to him.  32 A   That's correct.  33 Q   With respect to the statements of fact that you make  34 there, I understand that the documents upon which you  35 rely are collected under tabs 38 to 47 inclusive.  If  36 you'd just consult the index and confirm for me that  37 that is so?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Unless there is anything there that you wish to draw  40 to his lordship's attention, I have only one or two  41 references that I have -- would ask you to look at for  42 a minute, and I'll proceed on that basis then.  Would  43 you -- under tab 38 you have a reference in a  44 newspaper account to Mr. O'Reilly's settling  45 pre-emption records in the claims area, and under tab  46 38B to Mr. O'Reilly's diary of November 1871, and I  47 won't ask you any questions with respect to that.  Mr. 20995  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Graham you have referred to as an important person in  2 the judicial history of the area?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And Mr. Graham's material is contained, my lord, under  5 tab 40A to L and, in addition, I'd ask your lordship  6 to note that under tab 15B in Volume 1 was Mr.  7 Graham's letter enclosing Mr. Tomlinson's letter of  8 September 10th, 1885, and he made reference in that  9 letter to the influence of the Methodist missionaries.  10 At tab 41, 42, deals with the squabbles that took  11 place between the magistrates in Hazelton, and I make  12 reference to tab 47, and that is a page from the  13 Omineca Herald, and would you refer to the upper  14 left-hand corner of that page, please?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And read to his lordship what you find there?  17 A   It's the top left-hand corner, my lord.  18  19 "The first sitting of the small debts court  20 was held at Hazelton on Tuesday morning before  21 the Stipendiary Magistrate Mr. William Allison.  22 One case was heard, Billy Green versus Charles  23 Mott, in which Robert Hovell appeared for the  24 plaintiff, an Indian, the defendant was in  25 default.  His Worship gave judgment for the  26 hire of two horses in the fall of the year  27 before last.  $24 together with $2 court fees  28 and $2 witness fees.  Mr. Hovell in addressing  29 the bench said that under the provisions of the  30 law he might apply to the magistrate after a  31 judgment for an order for the imprisonment of  32 an obdurate defendant for 20 days."  33  34 Q   That is the case to which you refer on page 19 of your  35 report that -- in these words:  36  37 "It is interesting that the first plaintiff in  38 that court was an Indian; the defendant was  39 probably white; the Indian secured judgment."  40  41 A   Yes.  42 MR. GOLDIE: Thank you.  43 THE COURT:  That's on page 17 of the report?  44 MR. GOLDIE:  45 Q   Page, I think it's —  46 A   Page 19.  47 MR. GOLDIE:   19, my lord, the first paragraph. 20996  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  3 Q   I understand you have one typographical correction to  4 make on page 16.  You make reference to Mr. Graham and  5 quote from a letter at the bottom of that page?  6 A   Yes, my lord, the quote that I have of his letter I  7 have this -- I have this to say:  "They have many  8 tribal grievances among themselves." That is a  9 typographical error.  I looked at the letter again.  10 It's "trivial".  11 Q   Thank you.  My lord, that particular letter is under  12 tab 40H, and the reference, the quotation, is from  13 page 2 of that letter.  14 The next section of your report, Mr. Williams,  15 commences at page 20 and you state that:  16  17 "I have compiled, as far as is possible  18 from available records, statistics of  19 convictions for crime in the claim area for the  20 period 1889 to 1910. "  21  22 And then you refer to the nature of the records  23 that are available to you, and you note that the  24 returns, the quarterly returns with respect to  25 convictions, fell into disuse several years prior to  26 its abolition.  The abolition, this is on page 20 of  27 your report?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   The requirement remained until 1911?  30 A   Yes.  I'm wrong in that, my lord.  It's 19 -- I think  31 it's 1915.  32 MR. GOLDIE:   Right.  Thank you.  33 THE COURT:  This is on page 20?  34 MR. GOLDIE:  35 Q   Yes, my lord.  It's about two-thirds of the way down  36 the page, the figure "1911".  37 A  And while I mention that, my lord, I also am wrong  38 when I stated that the requirement started in 1892.  39 It is on the fifth line above that reference.  The  40 requirement began in 1888.  41 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I can't find 1911 on page 20.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, if your lordship would look down the left-hand  43 margin and about two-thirds of the way down the date  44 "1911".  45 THE COURT:  Oh, there it is.  Yes.  And that should be 1915?  46 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  All right.  47 THE COURT:  And the other date? 20997  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  The other date was 1892.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  And it should be?  3 MR. GOLDIE:  About six lines above.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  And it should be?  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   1888?  7 A   Yes.  8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  10 Q   And you state at the bottom of the page, and I quote:  11  12 "I think it is fair to conclude, therefore, that  13 the convictions at Hazelton represent a large  14 majority perhaps an overwhelming majority, of  15 all convictions in the claim area up to, say,  16 1910.  After that date..."  17  18 If I may pause there, that is the date that you  19 conclude the quarterly returns fell into disuse?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And then you state:  22  23 "After that date one has to rely on  24 correspondence and newspaper accounts which, of  25 course, may be incomplete."  26  27 And then you introduce a table on page 22.  Have  28 you had an opportunity of updating those statistics?  2 9 A   Yes, I have.  30 Q   Perhaps you could turn to that page of your report and  31 provide his lordship with the -- your current views?  32 A  As the result of material I read subsequently to the  33 date of this report, which was March 1987, my lord,  34 there are alterations, additional convictions, and I  35 can summarize the results of all that if you like, Mr.  36 Goldie.  37 Q   Yes, please.  Can you do it in terms of the --  38 A   Yes, of the report.  39 Q   — of the table?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Yes?  42 A   The -- at page 22 of the report, my lord, the figures  43 for felonies should be 49 -- the figure, rather, for  44 felonies should be 49.  The figure for midemeanours or  45 summary convictions should be 176, and the  46 indeterminate are 59, which leads to a total of 284.  47 So far as the identity of the accused are 2099E  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 concerned, the figure should be for whites 34, for  2 Indians 176, for Chinese it should be 12, and the  3 figure for indeterminate is unchanged.  And that leads  4 to the total of 284.  5 MR. GOLDIE:   Thank you.  6 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, I wonder if my friend or the witness could  7 indicate where the changes are coming from because I  8 haven't had any notice that there was a change in the  9 totals or the opinion or anything else in this area of  10 the report.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  12 Q   I think you stated that this is a result of your -- of  13 subsequent readings?  14 A   That's right, subsequent to March of 1987.  15 Q   Yes.  Is it possible for you to be any more precise  16 than that in answering the question?  17 A  As to material that I read?  18 Q   Yes.  19 A   Yes.  I read additional correspondence, Loring  20 correspondence, I read the so-called Loring  21 manuscripts which is part of the RG-10 material.  I  22 read -- it was mainly additional correspondence from  23 Loring and the RG-10 material, the Loring manuscript  24 material.  25 Q   Loring, I think you stated, was the only resident  26 magistrate for some period of time, was he not?  27 A  Well, he was the -- he was the Indian agent.  He was  28 appointed -- apparently appointed as a provincial J.P.  29 in 1901, although I can't find any record of his  30 formal appointment, but he sat as a J.P. and reported  31 on returns of convictions as a J.P., but he was joined  32 after 1899 by two other J.P.'s, Sergent and Stevenson,  33 so that from 1899 onwards there were at least three  34 J.P.'s, and then until about -- until 1905 I believe  35 it was when a chap named Hicksbeach was appointed a  36 stipendiary magistrate, and he sat.  37 Q   And you have included in the documents the  38 appointments of Sergent?  39 A   Yes.  40 MR. GOLDIE:   And Stevenson?  41 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, I'm not very much wiser about what the  42 witness may have referred to in addition.  Loring  43 letters and RG-10 is rather a vast category, and I'm  44 asking my friend to point me with some particularity  45 to what the witness was relying on to change his  46 report.  47 THE WITNESS:   Well, if you give me a moment, my lord, I will. 20999  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Okay.  2 THE WITNESS:   I mentioned RG-10 material.  There are some  3 returns of convictions noted in the RG-10 material  4 which do not appear in the provincial secretary's  5 material in the -- under that government record in the  6 archives.  7 There are additional letters from Loring to his  8 superiors, mainly to Vowell, who was the  9 Superintendent for Indian Affairs in British Columbia  10 at the time.  There were additional letters, one  11 letter at least from Loring to the deputy  12 Attorney-General.  I mentioned the -- what I call at  13 least the Loring manuscript material, which actually  14 comes out of the -- I may have said RG-10.  I think  15 it's the Barbeau/Beynon material actually.  Yes.  And  16 there are a number of letters from Loring in that  17 giving details of people whom he convicted.  18 Those are the categories.  19 MR. GOLDIE:   All right.  Thank you.  20 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, I have to say I'm still no wiser.  I don't  21 know what documents my friend is having the witness  22 refer to.  I don't have any notice of their existence.  23 I can't effectively test his figures, his revised  24 figures, of which I have no notice, without knowing  25 which documents he looked at.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  I think my friend is aware that the documents that  27 the witness is referring to were indicated in his  28 working papers and my friend has received a good deal  29 of that.  I'd have to check specifically to see  30 whether these numbers are compiled there, but the best  31 I can do for my friend is what I've done, unless the  32 witness has some working papers which provide the  33 particulars of that and I'll be glad to look into  34 that.  35 THE WITNESS:  Well, I —  36 MR. ADAMS:  Perhaps what I could ask is, before I complete my  37 cross-examination, to be provided with references to  38 the particular documents and the dates of them.  39 I'm -- this table purports to cover a 20-year period,  40 and I'm at sea as to what the dates are and the  41 identity of the documents that changed the figures.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I think he's identified the documents, my  43 lord, the category, the classification of the  44 documents.  Whether he can be specific will depend on  45 the state of his working papers and I'm prepared to go  46 into that at the break.  47 THE WITNESS:   I have my working papers, my lord, on all this. 21000  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Available here?  2 THE WITNESS:   Yes, my lord.  Yes.  3 THE COURT:  Well, all right.  I perceive a practical problem and  4 a management problem and I think that -- well, I won't  5 say -- I think the practise which I have followed, and  6 which I believe is not unique to myself, in this court  7 has been not to hold witnesses strictly to the precise  8 contents of their report, but to add to it and amend  9 it as required in order to conform to the evidence,  10 but protecting wherever possible the right of the  11 defence to deal with it in a fair and reasonable  12 manner, but also without shutting down the trial or  13 sending the witness off to do more research unless  14 it's absolutely necessary.  I think that Mr. Adams has  15 a difficult problem and I can understand his concern.  16 I think firstly that it's a matter for  17 cross-examination, and if it isn't resolved at that  18 point, then I would have to deal with it in some other  19 way, but I don't think that Mr. Adams is suggesting  20 anything unreasonable when he says that he'd like  21 before he finishes his cross-examination to have some  22 particulars, and at the moment my view is that he may  23 well receive them in cross-examination.  If he  24 doesn't, I'll deal with it again.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   Thank you, my lord.  27 You specified in your report -- or did you.  I'll  28 ask you.  Did you include what you refer to as Indians  29 threatening white men with guns over land squabbles?  30 A   Yes.  I've had to alter that figure in the light of  31 research subsequent to March of 1987, my lord.  32 Q   And would you give his lordship your revised figure?  33 A   The revised -- in the report I said there were four  34 instances of Indians threatening white men with guns  35 over land squabbles.  That figure, my lord, should be  36 18.  Included in that figure -- and the reason I  37 didn't -- I should have been more precise in my  38 report, although they are included in the statistics  39 that I've given you, my lord, at the table, the  40 convictions which resulted from the Kispiox -- the  41 Kitwanga and the Kispiox difficulties in 1909 and  42 1910, had -- although they've been included in the  43 overall table, I did not have them in mind when I said  44 there were four instances of Indians threatening white  45 men.  Those convictions have been added into that  46 figure with the resulting total of 18.  47 Q   Right. 21001  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A  And similarily, my lord, I regret one other amendment.  2 In the report I referred to convictions before 1900.  3 I said that there were 20 up until 1900.  In fact  4 there were 42.  5 Q   As you state in that paragraph, some of these  6 convictions, as you've put it, are inferred from  7 returns of persons in custody?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And you've endeavoured to collect these from a variety  10 of sources including correspondence?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And of what you have stated.  13 Now, at page 23 you indicate some of the  14 difficulties of identifying the victims, and you state  15 that:  16  17 "With the exception of Youmans and Gunanoot  18 (though the latter was found innocent in 1919),  19 the homicides by Indians were of other  20 Indians."  21  22 And then you conclude by stating your opinion.  23  24 "One cannot see any evidence of persistent  25 lawlessness by any segment of the community,  26 except for the many liquor-related convictions,  27 a large proportion of which stemmed from the  28 liquor provisions of the Indian Act--illegal  29 supply and possession of liquor; illegal  30 manufacture of liquor; and drunkenness on and  31 off the reserve."  32  33 And that's -- you state your conclusion that "by  34 far the greatest number of convictions of all kinds  35 were liquor related."?  36 A   I believe so.  37 Q   And then from pages 23 on to 25 you review the nature  38 of the crime that is revealed in the sources that  39 you've examined, and on page 24 the nature of the  40 sentences, and then you sum up your observations at  41 the bottom of page 24 and 25; is that correct?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   All right.  Now, the additional documents that I have  44 not referred to relating to judicial activity is found  45 under tab 48, and that contains both appointments and  46 directions by stipendiary magistrates, but would you  47 refer under tab 48C, please? 21002  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  1  12  13  ]  14  15  i  16  17  18  19  20  ]  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  ]  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  ]  45  MR. GOLDIE  46  47  THE COURT:  Yes.  And there is -- this is the Cariboo Centinal for June  the 21st, 1873, is it?  Yes.  And what is it on that page that you wish to draw his  lordship's attention to?  Under the heading, my lord, in the third column of the  newspaper report, the newspaper, rather, there's  "Quesnelmouth Assizes, Wednesday, June 11th, 1873".  This is an account of the trial for murder before  Chief Justice Begbie of an Indian named Tommy who was  accused of the murder of two women on the Omineca  Mines.  The two women were from Skeena Forks.  Tommy  was a Coast Indian.  He was committed for trial in the  Omineca by Fitzgerald who held a preliminary hearing,  and he was actually tried at Quesnel, and I think it's  fair to say the Chief Justice got him off.  He had no  lawyer, but Begbie acquitted -- as much as told the  jury to acquit him.  In any case, he was acquitted of  murder, but convicted of theft because he was found in  possession of some articles belonging to the two dead  women.  And that's referred to in the adjacent column under  the heading "Tuesday, June 12th, Regina versus Tommy"?  Yes.  Now, this affair had its repercussions a year  later in Hazelton.  In what way?  Amongst -- the women had -- one of the women had  money, $76 cash, which was found on her.  The  government took -- Fitzgerald, I suppose, or somebody,  took the money but didn't turn it over to her  relatives who lived at Hazelton, and a chap named  Hydagh, H-y-d-a-g-h, at Hazelton, who was brother to  one of the murdered women -- the women undoubtedly  were murdered, but not -- found not by Tommy.  The  brother of one of them and the uncle -- and uncle to  the other dead woman, had been promised by Fitzgerald  that this money would be paid to them, the $76.  It  was not paid, and had not been paid until late in  1874, and in the fall of that year the judge from the  correspondence on the matter -- there was a good deal  of agitation stirred up by Hydagh at the failure of  the government to keep its promise to pay him this  money.  It was ultimately paid.  Thank you.  Now, at page 26 of your report, Mr. Williams --  I'm sorry, page? 21003  Submission by Mr. Adams  1 MR. GOLDIE:  26.  You begin a section under the heading "Indian  2 Tensions, Unrest and Confrontations".  And then you  3 state that:  4  5 "...over a 40-year period from 1872 to 1912, a  6 number of events involving relations between  7 the white and Indian communities in the claim  8 area which, in their cumulative effect,  9 illustrate that the Indians never did exercise  10 sovereignty in the claim area after the advent  11 of white settlers.  Indeed, two and possibly  12 three of these events, apart from the  13 cumulative effect of all of these, resulted in  14 effective acceptance by the Indian chiefs in  15 the Upper Skeena of the political, legal and  16 economic rule of the white community."  17  18 Then you —  19 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, excuse me, just before my friend proceeds,  20 that's one of the passages that I object to on various  21 grounds, and I wonder if this might be a convenient  22 time to identify those and deal with them because in  23 my submission the entire passage that my friend just  24 read is objectionable as legal opinion as general  25 history and is beyond the witness' expertise.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, if my friend is objecting, I think my -- to  27 this passage, I think we should hear the objection, my  28 lord.  Well, perhaps he has stated his objection.  2 9 THE COURT:  I think he has, yes.  30 MR. ADAMS:  Yes.  And if this is a convenient time, I could  31 identify the other passages of a similar character to  32 which I take similar objection.  They are not --  33 THE COURT:  They're post page 26 are they?  34 MR. ADAMS:  No, some are before that.  There is a large section  35 at the beginning which my friend did not deal with in  36 the beginning and therefore I have been quiet until  37 now.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I think you're referring to the witness'  39 conclusions.  I wasn't going to refer to that until  40 the end of his evidence, but I'm happy to hear my  41 friend identify other parts --  42 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  — within the body of the opinion.  4 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Adams.  45 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, beginning at page one of the report, I take  46 objection to the passage beginning in the final  47 sentence of the first paragraph which begins "My main 21004  Submission by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  COURT  ADAMS  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  conclusions".  Yes.  And carrying right through to the end of large Roman  numeral IV on page 2.  Then on page 3 of the report I take objection to  the final full sentence which refers to "the pattern  of Indian and white relations".  And I should say, before I go further, that the  basis for the objection to those are the main  conclusions that I have taken exception is that they  are, as I stated, matters of general history, that  they are legal opinion, and that they are in any case  beyond the expertise of the witness as established.  The passage I've identified at the bottom of page  3, in my submission, is a matter of general history  and falls within your lordship's ruling on those  issues.  The witness purports a number of points to  summarize the effect of long periods of the history of  the area.  Then on page 25 of the report, I think that's the  passage you've just reached --  GOLDIE:  Well, the whole of page 25?  ADAMS:  No, I'm just going to identify a passage.  Beginning  seven lines from the bottom right in the middle of the  page, beginning "on the whole therefore" and ending  with "judicial officials", in my submission that's a  legal opinion and it's a matter of general history.  On page 26 there's the passage my friend just read  and to which I --  Page 26?  Page 26, the first beginning "there were" and ending  with "white community" just before he carries on "by  Upper Skeena".  Yes.  And there too I say that's legal opinion beyond the  witness' expertise and a matter of general history.  And then finally on page 51 and 52 of the report  right at the bottom of 51 there's a sentence beginning  "It seems to me the pattern", and carrying on right  through to the end of page 52, and that too in my  submission is general history intertwined with legal  opinion, intertwined with opinions that are beyond the  expertise of this witness.  And I can refer your lordship to the appropriate  passages in your rulings, but I think that you have  ruled that historians are not competent to give  evidence as to the facts of general history is well  COURT  ADAMS  COURT  ADAMS 21005  Submission by Mr. Adams  Submission by Mr. Frey  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 established, that witnesses can't give legal opinions  2 is well established.  And I have covered this witness'  3 qualifications in my cross-examination on his  4 qualifications.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Frey, any submission?  6 MR. FREY: My lord, I haven't had an opportunity to read those  7 passages in detail, but I think my submission is  8 simply to the extent that this witness has gone to  9 particular documents in the archives, a particular  10 group of documents, and those documents disclose the  11 regular functioning of the administration of justice,  12 that he has come to a general conclusion regarding the  13 operation of that system on the people that were  14 before that system of justice.  I think that that's  15 all that these passages do.  16 THE COURT: Mr. Goldie.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I don't quarrel with any of the general  18 observations my friend makes with respect to your  19 lordship's ruling, and I'm anxious to conform to them.  20 I take issue with any submission he makes with respect  21 to qualifications.  Mr. Williams is as fully qualified  22 as Mr. Galois was with respect to the matters of a  23 similar character to Mr. Galois or Dr. Galois and Mr.  24 Brody made.  Both purported to inform your lordship of  25 matters that Mr. Williams is talking about here.  26 So far as the witness' conclusions are concerned,  27 and I turn to page 1, I do not think that the witness  28 is in any worse position in suggesting, on the basis  29 of the documents that he places before your lordship,  30 and stating that in his opinion there was a ready  31 submission by the Indian population within the claim  32 area to the arrival of the white man, his activities,  33 and his rule.  The effect to be given to that opinion  34 is going to be a matter of argument with respect to  35 the documents not only put in by this witness, but put  36 in by other witnesses.  But if the documents support  37 his conclusion, in my submission, he's entitled to  38 make that conclusion.  39 And I say that there may be some individual points  40 that the witness has, in my friend's eyes, has  41 exceeded in his opinions the documents before him, the  42 documents he selected, but that's a matter for  43 cross-examination.  And I make that general submission  44 with respect to the conclusions that he summarizes on  45 pages 1 and 2.  46 On page 3, he says:  47 21006  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 "The greater part of the research was into the  2 pre-1900 period.  I think the pattern of Indian  3 and white relations in the claim area was  4 settled by then, and if not entirely so,  5 certainly by 1914."  6  7 Well, that's his opinion based upon the research  8 that he's done.  I don't regard that as an assertion  9 of general history.  Mr. Brody went on at some lengths  10 about the relations between the settlers and the white  11 population and expressed conclusions with respect to  12 that.  13 Then at page 51 he says:  14  15 "It seems to me the pattern of relationship  16 between whites and Indians in the claim area  17 was already well established before any  18 agitation for land occurred.  That pattern  19 involved recognition and acceptance by the  20 Indian chiefs of Skeena River villages that  21 effective rule was wielded by the white man,  22 and on three occasions, in 1872, 1888 and 1909,  23 that recognition, indeed submission, was  24 secured by displays of military force..."  25  2 6 And so on.  27 Those are incidents which your lordship has heard  28 witnesses talk about now on several occasions.  The  29 Kitseguecla fire, the Kitwancool Jim episode, and the  30 events in 1909 which the witness has yet to deal with.  31 I skipped one page there that my friend referred to.  32 THE COURT:  Page 3?  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Page 25 and 6.  34 THE COURT:  Page 25 and 26.  Right.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Well, on page 25 my friend is referring to  36 the sentence beginning with the words "On the whole,  37 therefore".  I think that is a mixed statement of  38 opinion and fact.  If he said in the last clause "I"  39 can detect no feeling, that's a statement of fact and  40 his opinion stands or falls on the support that he has  41 provided your lordship and the documents he's referred  42 to.  The question of a general acceptance by the  43 Indian community would have to be, if he stated -- if  44 he's purporting to state what is in the minds of the  45 Indian community, I agree that should come out.  But  46 if it is stated on the basis of objective evidence,  47 which I think it is, then I -- in my submission, it 21007  Submission by Mr. Goldie  Submission by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. ADAMS  could stay in.  On page 26 the first -- the objection on that  page, which begins with the words "there were" and  goes on to "the economic rule of the white community"  is, I think, simply an introduction to the discussion  that follows of the Kitseguecla fire, the Kitwancool  Jim episode, and in fact a number of others that he  draws the court's attention to.  If it is -- if it is  a matter that expresses an opinion within the --  within the forbidden areas, I can see no harm in  taking it out.  It doesn't affect the subsequent  discussion that the witness enters into with respect  to the matters that he refers to in that clause.  I agree with Mr. Frey's observation that where the  witness has gone to the available records, he is  qualified to express an opinion with respect to the  effect of the system that he's studied on the people  that he is dealing with.  That's been the case of --  expressed by a number of people with respect to  matters out -- even outside the claims area.  On the whole, my lord, my submission is that  there's nothing in Mr. Williams' report that isn't of  the similar category that was found in the reports of  Dr. Galois and Mr. Brody.  :  Thank you.  Mr. Adams?  :  My lord, just a couple of points.  First of all, I don't dispute what my friend says  that these are expressions of Mr. Williams' opinion.  The question is, are they admissible opinions, and  that's what my submissions were directed to.  I didn't  suggest -- I don't suggest that they were anybody  else's opinions or that they weren't opinions.  My  complaint is that they are, but they're the wrong  kind.  As to the conclusions that the witness gives the  opinion indicates admission on the part of the  Indians, in my submission, that's a matter for your  lordship.  My friend referred to the passages on pages 25 to  26.  He said if the opinions purported to show a  general acceptance by the Indian community, then he  agreed that they should come out, but that if there  was objective evidence, if they were regarded as being  in the documents objective evidence of acceptance,  then that would be all right.  And, in my submission,  that's still inadmissible because it becomes a legal  opinion as to the objective effect of what's found in 2100?  Ruling by the Court  1 the documents.  2 In my submission this witness, in the passages  3 I've identified, speaks repeatedly to matters of  4 sovereignty, of acceptance, that are purely, on the  5 pleadings, matters for your lordship.  6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  7 I've attempted to confine the historical evidence  8 in this case to what I hoped would be manageable  9 proportions.  This I thought to be necessary because  10 of the open-ended nature of history and because  11 history really has two perspectives; one is historical  12 facts, the collection of which is historical research;  13 and the other is opinions or conclusions based upon  14 those historical facts.  And in an effort to wrestle  15 this beast into manageable proportions, I have tried  16 to eliminate the latter while giving full rein to  17 counsel to adduce the former.  It is inevitable when  18 one tries to build fences or draw lines around such  19 concepts for one to find himself subsequently in a box  20 or a bind or some other descriptive device.  21 I am anxious, if possible, to be completely  22 consistent, although I doubt if I will achieve success  23 in that regard in any absolute sense.  I have a belief  24 that, while I ruled in what I hope were similar terms  25 with respect to the plaintiffs' witnesses,  26 particularly Mr. Morrison and Dr. Galois, but also I  27 think to some extent Mr. Brody, that their evidence  28 did from time to time cross the amorphous line that I  29 attempted to draw.  30 I think that I would prefer not to rule on the  31 objection until I have had an opportunity to  32 scrutinize the evidence of the plaintiffs' historical  33 witnesses against the same yardstick that I have  34 sought to impose.  I can say now that my present view  35 is that the impuned passages on page 1 and sub -- and  36 paragraph Roman IV, probably cross the line, being  37 conclusions drawn by the witness based, I presume,  38 upon documents which he is putting before me, and  39 amount to conclusions or opinions which are probably  40 ones which, if supported by the evidence, should be  41 drawn by me, or if not supported by the evidence,  42 rejected by me.  43 I think the passage to which objection is taken by  44 Mr. Adams on page 3 is unobjectionable.  I think it is  45 a passage which explains the process the witness has  46 followed.  He has included in there a conclusion  47 starting with the words "I think", but I take that to 21009  Ruling by the Court  1 be descriptive of why the report is in the form it is  2 and why the research is limited to the period prior to  3 the Great War, and I would not interfere with that  4 passage.  5 On page 25, the last seven lines I think is in the  6 same category as most of the passages I mentioned on  7 pages 1 and 2.  I think it amounts to a conclusion  8 based upon the documents which are presumably in the  9 collection and which are probably -- and which  10 constitute findings or conclusions which are my  11 responsibility.  But, again, I would not strike it out  12 of the report at this stage until I have made the  13 comparison which I mentioned earlier.  14 I think the first full paragraph on page 26 falls  15 into the same category.  16 On page 51, which I haven't had a chance to  17 examine carefully, but a cursory reading leads me to  18 believe that it too largely is in the same category,  19 although I think it includes also a reference to  20 historical facts, that is, that there were in 1872,  21 1888, and 1909, displays of military force.  And if  22 that -- if those facts are supported in the material,  23 then I may well reach the same conclusion.  But the  24 final result on that behalf must be one that I reach  25 after examining the material and the collection which  26 has been presented by the witness.  27 In the result, therefore, I would not at this time  28 give effect to the objection because it may be that  29 the plaintiffs' witnesses were permitted, with or  30 without objection, to wrap up their conclusions in the  31 way the witness has in the passages I have mentioned.  32 If my investigation of the matter -- which I do not  33 think will really take place until after I have heard  34 counsel's final arguments, then I will deal with these  35 passages accordingly.  I think at the moment the  36 likelihood is that I would treat them as being not  37 properly admissible, but useful as indications of the  38 structure of the report and the reasons why the  39 research has been conducted in the way it has, but I  40 will reserve myself the right to make the conclusions,  41 if thought fit, which have been -- or contrary  42 conclusions if also thought fit, which have been  43 mentioned by the witness.  44 MR. ADAMS: My lord, could I just ask for one direction arising  45 out of your comments?  4 6    THE COURT:  Yes.  47    MR. ADAMS:  And that is because the objection has not been ruled 21010  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 on it will be necessary for me to cover myself to  2 cross-examine on some of those passages, and I would  3 not like to have the objection go by the boards  4 because it's necessary to guess which way things are  5 going to fall.  6 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I agree with my friend.  I think that was the  8 basis upon which the cross-examinations before were  9 conducted.  10 THE COURT:  Mr. Frey?  11 MR. FREY: I agree with Mr. Goldie, my lord.  12 THE COURT:  I agree with Mr. Adams and Mr. Goldie and Mr. Frey.  13 Mr. Goldie.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  15 Q   Thank you, my lord.  16 Mr. Williams, we were about to deal or we have  17 dealt in part, I should say, with the category that  18 you've referred to in your report as "Law and Order -  19 Crime".  And in the next section, which begins on page  20 26, without reference to your -- without extended  21 reference to your opinion, you identify the  22 Kitseguecla affair in 1872, and that has been referred  23 to so his lordship is familiar with the event, but you  24 make reference to on page 27 to "Alarming reports were  25 carried down to the coast by Constable Brown."  26 Is the document to which you refer to, or is the  27 report to which you refer to in the material before  28 his lordship?  29 A   Yes.  It's at tab 48, one, a letter from Brown, 26th  30 of June of 1872, to the provincial secretary.  31 Q   And he's there describing the fire and he puts a value  32 on the total loss of, is it, $6,000?  33 A   $6,000.  Yes.  34 Q   Yes.  Thank you.  That's on page 1, my lord.  And is  35 there anything else in that report that you wish to  36 draw his lordship's attention to?  37 A  Well, there were conflicting versions of the origin of  38 the fire.  There's no question that it occurred and  39 that it was there as a result of a camp fire getting  40 out of control by white miners who'd been accompanied  41 up the river by Indian canoemen, boatmen, but whether  42 the fire was set by the Indians or not or by the white  43 man was of some controversy.  44 Brown, at the second page of his letter about --  45 just past the half-way point, refers to the cause of  46 the fire.  He was told that the Indians say the fire  47 had been caused by white men.  Earlier they had 21011  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 attributed it to the malice of a Tsimshian named  2 Kelutsa(ph) who had an old grudge against them.  And  3 in one of the subsequent letters, I think it was -- I  4 think it was Fitzgerald, Fitzgerald's report on the  5 matter, Fitzgerald also refers to the -- he had been  6 told at the outset of the affair that -- Fitzgerald  7 had come over from the Omineca, my lord, as a result  8 of this business, and he initially had been told that  9 the fire had been set as a grudge sort of thing by the  10 Tsimshians.  But, in any case, it led to the  11 conference or whatever, the meeting, however one  12 describes it, at Skeenamouth.  13 Q   This was the meeting with the lieutenant governor?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Yes.  Well, after -- you've made reference to  16 Fitzgerald, and under tab 49 do we find his report to  17 the provincial secretary of August 31st, 1872?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Yes.  20 A  And in that report, my lord, he had -- he had learned  21 of this business and he came over.  He -- in his  22 letter he reports that he reached Hazelton on the 3rd  23 of August of 1872 to find that the cause of the  24 trouble between the Kitseguecla Indians and the  25 boatmen on the Skeena was in consequence of the loss  26 by fire of a village which was owned by the Indians.  27 And then on the second page, my lord, of his  28 letter at the tab he says this:  29  30 "I sent for Kit-turn..."  31  32 I can't read it.  33  34 "...the chief of the Ak-el-gate tribe of Indians  35 and asked him for his assistance to settle the  36 trouble between the Kit-sa-gook-lah Indians,  37 and the whites, by conciliatory measures if  38 possible and failing those, to obey my orders  39 in arresting such Indians as I might point out.  40 Kit-tum-ska-nese assented and manned two  41 canoes with twenty of his tribe, and we  42 proceeded to Kit-sa-gook-lah.  43 On my arrival there I was informed that  44 constable A.R. Brown had returned from  45 Skeenamouth with a message, from His Excellency  46 the Lieutenant Governor, inviting the Chief of  47 the Kit-sa-gook-lah tribe, to meet him at the 21012  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 mouth of the river and that the Indians had  2 accepted the invitation and had gone down with  3 the constable a few hours before we arrived."  4  5 He then discusses the question of compensation  6 which was raised by the chief at Kitseguecla.  And  7 Fitzgerald on the fourth page of his letter, my lord,  8 first complete paragraph says:  9  10 "I informed them, that I could not enter  11 into the merits of the case for compensation,  12 as that matter would be inquired into and  13 arranged by His Excellency.  I also explained  14 to them the nature of the offence the tribe had  15 committed in preventing boats from passing up  16 the river.  17 Skookum-la-hah..."  18  19 This is page 5, my lord.  20  21 "...replied that they had only stopped two  22 canoes and at that time, they were very much  23 excited about the loss of the village; he also  24 stated that two shots had been fired in the air  25 by the young men but with no intention to do  2 6 harm.  27 The Indians attribute the loss of their  28 village to a fire that was kindled by two coast  29 Indians, who had brought up a number of miners  30 in their canoe and were returning home at the  31 time of the accident."  32  33 Then at the sixth page he refers to Constable  34 Brown as having returned to the river and, Fitzgerald  35 observes, "on his way down alarmed", that's Brown:  36  37 "...alarmed the whole district unnecessarily.  38 So from all the information I could gather, had  39 that officer used ordinary tact with the  40 Indians the matter might have been settled in a  41 few days, so as to allow the canoes to pass and  42 in the meantime, he could have sent me a  43 report.  44  45 At the bottom of that page he says, my lord:  46  47 "The Indians went through..." 21013  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2 And then at the top of the last page:  3  4 "...a ceremony of making peace and expressed  5 regret, for what had occurred, but how long  6 they may remain in that state of mind is very  7 uncertain.  8 I have ordered Constable Brown to report  9 himself at Hazelton, as it is highly requisite  10 that a Government Officer should be there, to  11 impress the Indians, that there is some person  12 to look after them, as well as to afford  13 protection to the settlers."  14  15 Q   I think you've stated that Mr. Fitzgerald was the  16 stipendiary magistrate?  17 A   Yes, he signs the letter "stipendiary magistrate".  18 Q   Yes.  And the Colonist article which you I believe  19 referred to in your report at page 28 is under tab 50?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Thank you.  Now, on page 30 -- now, before I go on to  22 that, you say on page 29 that:  23  24 "As a result of this conference, the Indians  25 lifted the blockade of the river to canoes."  26  27 A   Yes.  28 MR. GOLDIE:   And the -- you then go on to refer to the Reverend  29 A.E. Green writing in 1888, and Mr. Green's letter is  30 under tab 51.  31 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, it's 51?  32 MR. GOLDIE:  33 Q   51, my lord.  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   The reference in Mr. Williams report is --  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   -- at page 29.  And there's an excerpt from his  38 letter?  39 A   This -- this is a letter from the Reverend Green,  40 who's a missionary on the river, to the provincial  41 secretary.  It was dated March 14th, 1888, my lord.  42 It's written when the Kitwancool Jim affair has just  43 started.  He's heard -- in his letter he says he's  44 heard about the murder at -- the murder of "Neatsqu"  45 allegedly by someone named "Kitwancool Jim".  46 But in the course of his letter, my lord, on the  47 second page he talks about the 1872 affair, the 21014  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Kitseguecla fire affair.  And at the second page of  2 his letter he says this, the first complete paragraph  3 on that page:  4  5 "The friends of the deceased were much excited  6 and declared they would kill the murderer.  Mr.  7 Pierce..."  8  9 Another missionary, my lord.  10  11 "...begged them not to take the law in their own  12 hands.  He quieted them by assuring them that  13 the government would see that the man who did  14 the murder would be punished.  The head chiefs  15 then remembered a paper they still had given  16 them some years ago by a government officer on  17 board a man of war at the coast when the  18 trouble caused by their village being burnt was  19 settled, which paper stated that the Indians  20 promised never again to take the law in their  21 own hands, and that the government promised to  22 help them if any Indians of other tribes should  23 kill any of them.  They decided to keep their  24 promise, and to lay the matter before the  25 government for adjustment."  26  27 That was of course a reference to current events,  28 that last —  29 Q   Yes.  Now, the current event that is being referred to  30 there, as you stated, is the so-called Kitwancool  31 affair?  32 A   Yes.  33 THE COURT:  Kitwancool Jim affair?  34 MR. GOLDIE:  35 Q   Kitwancool Jim affair?  36 A   Right.  37 Q   But that started out with the shooting by Kitwancool  38 Jim himself of the man referred to in Mr. Green's  39 letter as Neatsqu?  40 A   Neatsqu.  41 Q   It looks like N-e-a-t-s-q-u?  42 A   It is.  That's how it's spelled there.  It's variously  43 spelled, but that's the man.  44 THE COURT:  That's in 1888?  45 THE WITNESS:   Yes, my lord.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  47 Q   So the agitation here was on the part of Neatsqua's 21015  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  A  family with respect to Kitwancool Jim's shooting of  that man?  Yes.  MR. ADAMS  THE  MR.  THE  MR. ADAMS  MR. ADAMS:  My lord, I object to that as leading.  MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'm —  THE COURT:  Yes, I think it's leading.  MR. GOLDIE:  It certainly is.  THE COURT:  It's pretty inoccuous.  We've been over it so many  times.  Well, my lord, the cause, as a matter of historical  fact, is a matter of some issue.  COURT:  Oh, of course.  GOLDIE:  Oh, well, I'm just summarizing.  COURT:  I don't think there's any doubt about the fact that  there's some -- that there is, at least it is  believed, that Kitwancool Jim killed this other person  and then the Kitwancool Jim affair followed on that.  Both sides seem to be agreed that far.  Yes.  What I was objecting to, my lord, is Mr.  Goldie suggesting to the witness what caused what and  what followed from what.  That, if the witness is  qualified to give it, is a matter for his opinion.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Well, I was endeavouring to summarize what this letter  stated, and my understanding is that the part that the  witness read related to Mr. Pierce's calming of the  family of Neatsqu?  A   Right.  THE COURT:  Shall we take the morning adjournment?  MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned for a  short recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter 21016  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:30)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   Thank you, my lord.  I now refer you to your report at  7 page 30, where you refer to an episode in 1874 in  8 which a pack train heading north was fired upon by  9 Indians at Kispiox, and instructions were given to  10 Constable Brown, and would you refer his lordship,  11 please, to the documents that refer to the 1874  12 episode, and I believe Constable Brown's report is  13 found under tab 54?  14 A   Yes.  The -- this episode, my lord, there are, I  15 suppose, from my -- two threads to it.  So far as the  16 agitation in the community was concerned, there seemed  17 to be two threads to it.  One was the direct affair of  18 the pack train, and the other one was that which I  19 suggested earlier, relating to the agitation by the  2 0 relative of the murdered women and the Omenica to get  21 his money -- to get their money, rather, paid to him.  22 And the packer involved was a man named Glenn, and his  23 report on the affair is at tab 52, in which he  24 describes how they were shot at.  There were no  25 injuries, but they were fired upon.  26 Q   That's 52A, I believe?  27 A   Sorry, 52A.  28 Q   Yes?  29 A   In the course of his account of this affair he says,  30 towards the bottom of the second page of his letter at  31 tab 52A —  32 THE COURT:  Just a moment, I thought I had that.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  34 Q   We're talking now of the packers who are actually  35 fired upon?  36 A   Yes.  37 THE COURT:  Yes, page 2?  38 A   Page 2 of his report, my lord, this is the Glenn  39 letter of August 7th of 1874, towards -- about  40 two-thirds of the way down the second page of his  41 letter, he says:  42  43 "There appears to be a rivalry between the two  44 parties about crossing people, but it is" --  45  46 Well, I should introduce that, the first complete  47 paragraph he has: 21017  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 "Alich agreed with Barney to put him across the  2 river for $16.00, he paid him that and gave the  3 Indians each -- that were helping one dollar  4 besides there appears to be a rivalry between the  5 two parties about crossing people, but it is too  6 bad that men trading should run the risk of losing  7 their lives on that account."  8  9 So there was this difficulty, a form of trading, a  10 rivalry, I suppose one would call it, and that subject  11 is referred to also by Mr. Tomlinson in a letter of  12 September the 2nd, 1875, and that's at tab 52B.  This  13 letter is written after the event, my lord, a year or  14 so later, and in it there's -- Tomlinson had offered  15 as a solution to the sort of difficulty that had been  16 raised by the packing -- by the pack train going  17 through the Kispiox country.  The solution that he  18 raised was to construct an alternate trail, which I  19 think ran north from up to the Nass from Kitwanga, and  20 this was in fact done, as he refers in his letter at  21 the bottom of his letter of page -- first page, he  22 says:  23  24 "At first it seemed doubtful that the plan" --  25  26 This is 52B, my lord, the first page, the bottom:  27  28 "At first it seemed doubtful if the plan would have  29 a fair trial such a tremendous effort to prevent  30 any of the Kitiksheans from working on the trail  31 was made by a party from a tribe at the head  32 of canoe navigation on the Nass River, headed by  33 two of their chiefs, who feared that if the  34 country was opened up the Kitiksheans would not be  35 so much in their power and therefore they could  36 not drive such hard bargains with them in trade."  37  38 And then he goes on to describe the nature of this  39 opposition, which eventually simmered down, and in  40 fact as he points out at the bottom of the second page  41 of his letter, some  of those who objected in the  42 first instance to packing through the country  43 subsequently wound up by working on this new trail  44 which Tomlinson had suggested.  He says at the bottom  45 of the second page of his letter, "All", that's the  46 Indian -- number of Indians:  47 2101!  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 "All went in peaceably during the work."  2  3 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, where is that?  4 A  At the 6th line from the bottom of the second page, my  5 lord.  6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  7 A  8 "All went on peaceably during the work."  9  10 That's the work of constructing a new trail:  11  12 "Though for part of the time there were more than  13 eighty men employed, and among them several of the  14 ringleaders of the party who molested the packers  15 at Kispiox last season.  Since my return from the  16 trail I have been informed by some who have  17 visited the Kispiox village this year that several  18 pack trains have passed without any molestation  19 and that all was quiet at the village."  20  21 So the matter really was explained by this, what I  22 call at least, intertribal rivalry between the  23 parties, but at tab 54, the other thread of this  24 agitation of the community, there was agitation among  25 the Indian community, both at Kispiox and at Hazelton,  26 the other part relating to Hydagh and his money, which  27 had been promised him, is dealt with by Brown,  28 Constable Brown, in two letters, one of the 31st of  29 August of 1874 and the other one on the 8th of  30 September of 1874.  And reading his -- those letters,  31 one can see that, so far as the agitation of Hazelton  32 was concerned amongst the Indian community at the time  33 of this -- this Kispiox pack train affair.  It seems  34 to have been explained by agitation stimulated by  35 Hydagh and his desire to get his money, but in any  36 case, Brown sent word out to the -- to several of the  37 villages at Kispiox and Hagwilget, Gitanmaax, Rocher  38 De Bouille, I take that to be the Hagwilget village,  39 that he was going to speak to them on this subject of  40 disturbing people going through the country, and he  41 says in his letter, first letter, August 8th, that he  42 was going to do this.  He concludes that letter, my  43 lord, the final page of it, that's the letter of  44 August 8th -- sorry August 31st, sorry.  45 THE COURT:  Oh, that's tab 54.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  47 Q   Yes.  There are two letters under that tab, my lord. 21019  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   There are two letters under that tab, my lord.  In the  2 conclusion of that letter he says:  3  4 "All the tribes on the way up are very friendly.  I  5 think it would be well to redeem a half promise  6 held out to the Kigseguetlass two years ago that  7 in case of good behaviour for a year they most  8 probably would receive a further proof of the  9 government's bounty."  10  11 Now, he then goes on in his letter of -- well, I  12 should perhaps refer to the second page, my lord, of  13 his letter of August 31st, because he refers there  14 directly to Hydagh.  And he says:  15  16 "On Mr. Hankin's arrival, Hydagh asked --  17  18 Hankin, of course, was the pioneer settler there.  19  20 "Hydagh asked him "Have you got my money".  21  22 Now, Mr. Hankin's replying to the negative.  23  24 "He got very much excited and has been abusing and  25 threatening.  Ask for Jinny, the wife of Tom" --  26  27 That's the murdered -- that's the accused murderer,  28 acquitted man.  29  30 "the wife of Tom now in jail at New Westminster.  I  31 understand that Mr. Fitzgerald told Hydagh that  32 there was a balance (after funeral expenses)  33 of seventy-six dollars which he could get by a  34 written application to the government."  35  36 And he, on the second -- on the third page of his  37 letter, he says:  38  39 "This matter although appearing small in Victoria  40 may cost lives here."  41  42 Then Brown announces that he's going to meet with the  43 people at the villages, various of the villages, and  44 in his letter of September the 8th, 1874 he outlines  45 his discussion with the chiefs and the people at --  46 what he gives details of village by village, and he  47 says that this is how he addressed all of them.  He 21020  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 said -- addressing chiefs and friends and so on and so  2 forth:  3  4 "The chief of the white man of Victoria has sent me  5 to speak to you.  He is sorry to hear that the  6 tribes in this neghbourhood who have hitherto been  7 well behaved and peaceable are now becoming  8 insolent and troublesome.  9 Our chief is very patient and slow to get angry,  10 but if you break the law, his arm is long and very  11 strong, and he will stretch it out and punish all  12 evil done.  When he has to send, he will not send  13 one or five or twenty, but a great many soldiers  14 armed with many shooting muskets.  15 However, he hopes that he shall not have to do  16 this, but do it he must, for although these  17 white men are a long way from him he is bound to  18 protect them."  19  20 Well, then he spoke in that vein, my lord, as he  21 records in his letter, he spoke in that vein at  22 Gitenmaax, the head chief Kitty-muldoe was there.  23 Kitty-muldoe told Brown, as reported by Brown, he  24 said:  25  26 "Although I am recognized as the chief I have not  27 power enough to even make the people come here to  28 listen to your message."  29  30 Then it was at Gitenmaax when Brown was speaking that  31 Hydagh came in asking for this money, and he says:  32  33 "Unless I am satisfied" --  34  35 That is to say "Unless I get the money":  36  37 "in the Indian fashion for them I will have my  38 revenge".  39  40 To which Brown replied:  41  42 "I replied that our law required clear proof  43 of crime before it punished and that Tommy got all  44 the penalty possible."  45  46 Well, he was convicted of theft but acquitted of the  47 murder.  Brown then went to Rocher De Bouille, again 21021  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 to speak in similar vein, he went to Kispiox, and he  2 concludes his letter of -- of September --  3 MR. GOLDIE:  8th?  4 A   8th, 1874, last paragraph, he says:  5  6 "I beg most respectfully to urge attention to this  7 matter."  8  9 That is -- that's the question of compensation for  10 Hydagh:  11  12 "on his Honor, the Lieutenant-Governor, and also  13 his responsible advisers as also the  14 immediate payment of the $76.00 of the two Indian  15 women murdered in Omineca to Hydagh, and (as he  16 says) promised to him by the late Mr. Fitzgerald."  17  18 Fitzgerald had died in 1873.  19 THE COURT:  Hydagh was related to the women, was he?  20 A   Yes.  He was brother to one of them and uncle of the  21 other.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  23 Q   All right.  Is there anything further that you wish to  24 refer to in connection with the episode of the packers  25 and the intertwined episode of the packers and Hydagh?  26 A   Just that at the -- in the -- at tab 55, my lord,  27 there's a report of the Colonist in this issue of  28 October the 18th, 1874 over this affair headed under  29 "The Trouble At Skeena, Neglect of the Government".  30 In that story, towards the third column of the paper,  31 my lord, there's a reference to a Mr. Hankin.  It  32 says -- it's about 20 lines from the bottom of the  33 column, I would say, my lord:  34  35 "At this time Mr. Hankin went down to Victoria" --  3 6    THE COURT:  Yes?  37 A  38 "And he told your correspondent that he had a  39 statement from the Hagwillgate Indians regarding a  40 murder that had taken place during the winter  41 amongst that tribe of Indians, praying that some  42 proper authorities would come up and arrest the  43 murderer, as they did not wish to take the law  44 into their own hands."  45  46 Now, this is contemporaneous with the affair -- or at  47 least the packing affair, but I have not been able to 21022  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 find any reference to that murder having taken place,  2 but the Hagwilgets, nonetheless, reported that it had  3 occurred and asked for government investigation of it.  4 Whether the matter was investigated, I don't know.  I  5 can't find any further reference to it.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q   All right.  Now, the -- that was the episode of 1874  8 to which you referred to in your report.  And you've  9 referred to the letter printed in the Colonist.  You  10 make reference to another early settler, namely  11 Woodcock, and his -- his letter is under 52C?  12 A   Yes.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  Perhaps we can get a typescript of that for his  14 lordship and -- because that's a very difficult letter  15 to follow.  16 THE COURT:  52C.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  18 Q   Yes, my lord.  It's Woodcock to the provincial  19 secretary of 1874, I believe?  2 0 A  Mm-hmm.  21 Q   From Woodcock's landing?  22 A   I have my own typescript of it, or part of it, if not  23 all of it.  Yes.  I have a typescript of all of it.  24 Q   Yes.  If you have that, we will have copies made and  25 provided my friends and his lordship with respect to  26 what Woodcock said.  The next episode to which you  27 refer at page 32 of your report is the Youmans'  28 murder, and that has been referred to a number of  29 times in the case.  You summarize it at page 32.  That  30 arose out of Youman's failure to notify the father of  31 a young boy who had been working for him that the boy  32 had drowned accidentally and the father's sense of  33 resentment arising out of the fact that he hadn't been  34 informed and compensation tendered?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And he -- he, the father, that is to say, stabbed  37 Youmans and killed him in his store in Hazelton?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And you say there was a turmoil, and you make  40 reference to a missionary, and his report and the  41 missionary's report is set out in your material?  42 A   Yes.  It's a good — it's June 10th, 1884, my lord.  43 It's written by R.E. Woods.  44 Q   And that is?  45 A  A lay teacher with the church missionary society.  46 That's a good summary, succinct summary of the affair.  47 Q   Right.  And you've also included under tab 56a the 21023  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Colonist's account of the same event?  2 A   Yes.  3 THE COURT:  Is this quotation on page 32?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  It's from from 56a-l, my lord.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q   Am I correct in that, Mr. Williams?  8 A   I'm sorry, Mr. Goldie, what?  9 Q   Am I correct in stating that the --  10 THE COURT:  Yes, I think you are.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  12 Q   The quotation at page 32 of your summary is taken from  13 the document under tab 56a-l, Mr. Woods' letter of  14 June 10th, 1884?  15 THE COURT:  It's about the same subject matter.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  17 THE COURT:  I'm not sure I see that same quotation?  18 A   I'm not sure either.  It's not that same letter.  19 THE COURT:  No?  20 A   It's not the letter at the tab rather.  The quotation  21 is not the letter from the tab.  22 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, the witness' reference is in the back of  23 the report, indicating that it was taken from a  24 newspaper article.  25 THE COURT:  That may be 56a.  Yes, I think that's 56a.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  27 Q   Yes, it is.  It's on the second page of the newspaper  28 article, 56a?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Yes, all right.  Well then, that's where the quotation  31 comes from, but under 56a-l you have Woods' letter to  32 the -- to the Attorney-General?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And the reporting on the 10th of the murder which took  35 place on the 6th?  36 A   Right.  37 Q   All right.  And that was what you were referring to  38 when you said it was a succinct description?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   All right, thank you.  And then thereafter there was a  41 dispatch of the police superintendent Roycroft, is it?  42 A   Roycroft, yes.  43 Q   Yes, all right.  Well, that's under 56b, which is a  44 newspaper account of the time.  And then 56c is an  45 indication of the concern of the white community, is  46 it?  47 A   Yes.  People indeed, yes.  It's actually written for 21024  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Lome Creek, but certainly in the area.  2 Q   All right.  And at 56d is the response of the  3 provincial secretary?  4 A   To that petition.  5 Q   To that petition.  That's October the 16th, 1884?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And the provincial secretary states that the matter  8 was considered by the counsel -- or the government?  9 A   By the government, mm-hmm.  10 Q   And he comments on the reference to the missionaries'  11 and the miners' complaint?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And states that the government is unwilling to believe  14 that all the missionaries were intended to be included  15 in the charges, and they ask for particulars?  16 A   Yes.  The petition blamed the missionaries.  17 Q   Yeah.  Now, the document at 56e is a letter from  18 Dempster?  19 A  W.H. Dempster, yes.  20 Q   And that seems to include a number of -- that is --  21 seems to include a petition, and it makes reference to  22 Youmans.  This is written from Aberdeen Cannery?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   June 12th, 1884?  25 A   Six days after the murder.  26 Q   And where do you understand most of these petitioners  27 to be?  28 A  Well, looking at it, I can't recognize one person on  29 there as living in the claim area.  Now, it's possible  30 that some of them came from Lome Creek, I suppose,  31 but certainly there are no names on there from  32 Hazelton, that I recognize at least.  I think that all  33 of those people are down at the coast.  They're  34 expressing great alarm about what happens.  For  35 example, here's the sort of mood -- emotional content  36 of the things.  The second page they say:  37  38 "Mrs. Youmans, widow of the deceased, says that the  39 knife which killed her husband had previously  40 sunk into the vitals of two other men."  41  42 Well, this is nonsense.  Ahtah, who killed Youmans, by  43 all accounts was a very peaceable and law abiding  44 person, or had been until this affair.  45 Q   Under tab 56f, would you tell his lordship what we  46 find there?  47 A  Well, this again was after the aftermath of the 21025  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 affair.  This was a petition, it's dated the 3rd of  2 September, 1884, written from Kitwingach, addressed to  3 the Attorney-General, introduced by the paragraph:  4  5 "We the undersigned, residents of Kitwingach,  6 Kitsegucla, Kitiwinseole and Kiskgagas wish to  7 bring before your notice one of the laws of the  8 Kiticksians in reference to the murder of the late  9 A.C. Youmans."  10  11 And then the letter goes on to refer to the failure to  12 offer at least some compensatory gesture for the loss  13 of the young lad, the young Indian lad, and that this  14 was how things should be done, and asking the  15 Attorney-General to bring that circumstance to the  16 attention of the court when Hatq, H-A-T-Q, was the  17 father's name at his trial.  18 Q   He had been committed for trial, had he?  19 A   Yes.  A.C. Elliott, a stipendiary magistrate, had  20 accompanied Roycraft to Hazelton to investigate the  21 affair, and a preliminary hearing was held at  22 Hazelton, and Hatq was committed for trial.  23 Q   And the outcome of that?  24 A   He was tried in Victoria, I think it was, or Nanaimo,  25 and he was definitely tried, he was convicted.  He was  26 sentenced to hang.  His sentence was, I believe,  27 commuted, and he died in prison in New Westminster.  28 Q   As you've stated, Superintendent Roycroft was sent up  29 to Hazelton to look into the matter, and if he was  30 committed for trial to bring him -- to bring him to  31 trial.  Under tab 56g you have the Colonist for July  32 of that year, and it has a story with respect to the  33 return of Superintendent Roycroft?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And the end of the second paragraph reference is made  36 to the praiseworthy influence of an Indian chief.  37 Would you please tell his lordship what that is all  38 about?  39 A   This is a reference to Chief Mountain of Greenville on  40 the Nass.  The party -- the Roycraft party went up to  41 the Nass and then struck over to the Skeena, but at  42 Greenville they had trouble, difficulty, because of  43 the circumstances of their apparently -- because of  44 the circumstances of their mission they had difficulty  45 getting people to pack them or guide them over to  46 Hazelton, and Chief Mountain found them, using his  47 influence -- found them -- found Indian packers, 21026  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 guides, to conduct them to the forks, Skeena forks,  2 and according to the newspaper account had this not  3 happened they would not have got to the Skeena forks,  4 or at least not as soon as they wished.  5 THE COURT:  Is that in 52g?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  56g.  7 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, 56g.  8 A   Yes.  Under the second column up, my lord, from the  9 left under the head of "Return of Superintendent  10 Roycroft", he's often referred actually as Roycraft.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  13 Q   And there's specific reference to that to Chief  14 Mountain by name under 56h, my lord, which is the  15 Daily Colonist for May 31st, is it 1885?  Yes.  16 A  May 31st, 1885.  17 Q   Yes.  And beginning on the first page there under the  18 heading "The Other Side Heard From, The Slandered  19 Missionaries Take Up the Pen in Their Own Defense",  20 there's a letter from a Mr. Jennings, a secretary on  21 behalf of the Methodist missionaries, but in the -- in  22 the second page, second column under the heading  23 "Youmans Incident", there is a specific reference to  24 the assistance given by Chief Mountain; is that  25 correct?  26 A   Yes.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  And —  28 THE COURT:  Can you direct me to that, please?  29 MR. GOLDIE:  Does your lordship —  30 THE COURT:  Yes, on the second page.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  About half-way down the first paragraph, they  32 were -- there's a sentence ending with the word "they  33 were about to turn back":  34  35 "Just then Chief Mountain of Greenville on the  36 Nass, by Mr. Green's advice, came to the rescue,  37 procured a sufficient number of Indians to guide  38 these officers of the law to their destination."  39  40 Mr. Green is a missionary:  41  42 "Had Mr. Green been disloyal to the government, or  43 had he uttered even one word against the object  44 these officers had in view, Messrs. Elliot,  45 Roycraft, et cetera might have failed in their  46 expedition."  47 21027  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Now, my lord, this continues in the next volume,  2 number 4, if I can hand that up.  3 THE COURT:  All right.  4 THE COURT:  Do you want to —  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, yes, and I will tender volume 3 as Exhibit  6 1178.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  With each tab, commencing at 34A and running  9 through to 56H, being marked in accordance with the  10 tab number and the description given in the index.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  12  13 (EXHIBIT 1178-34a - Fitzstubbs to AG)  14  15 (EXHIBIT 1178-34b - Fitastubbs to Attorney  16 General)  17  18 (EXHIBIT 1178-34c - Fitzstubbs to AG)  19  20 (EXHIBIT 1178-34d - Loring to Vowell)  21  22 (EXHIBIT 1178-34e - Loring to Deputy AG)  23  24 (EXHIBIT 1178-34f - Census record)  25  26 (EXHIBIT 1178-35a - Flewin to AG)  27  28 (EXHIBIT 1178-35b - Hussey to Wilkie)  29  30 (EXHIBIT 1178-36 - Kirby to Provincial Secretary)  31  32 (EXHIBIT 1178-37- Valleau to Provincial Secretary)  33  34 (EXHIBIT 1178-38a - Colonist article entitled  35 "Omineca")  36  37 (EXHIBIT 1178-38b - Extract from O'Reilly's diary  38 entries)  39  40 (EXHIBIT 1178-39a - Vowell to Prov. Secty.)  41  42 (EXHIBIT 1178-39b - Vowell to Prov. Secty.)  43  44 (EXHIBIT 1178-40a - Graham, Allan (Oath of  45 Allegiance)  46 (EXHIBIT 1178-40b - Graham to Prov. Secty.)  47 2102?  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (EXHIBIT 1178-40c - Colonist article re  2 Appointment of Graham)  3  4 (EXHIBIT 1178-40d - Graham to Prov. Secty.)  5  6 (EXHIBIT 1178-40e - Graham to Prov. Secty.)  7  8 (EXHIBIT 1178-40f - Graham to Prov. Secty.)  9  10 (EXHIBIT 1178-40g - Graham's Report)  11  12 (EXHIBIT 1178-40h - Graham to Prov. Secty.)  13  14 (EXHIBIT 1178-40i - Graham to Minister of Finance)  15  16 (EXHIBIT 1178-40J - Prov. Secty. to Graham)  17  18 (EXHIBIT 1178-40k - Prov. Secty. to Graham)  19  20 (EXHIBIT 1178-401 - Prov. Secty. to Graham)  21  22 (EXHIBIT 1178-41a - Oath of Office of R.S.  23 Sargent)  24  25 (EXHIBIT 1178-41b - Oath of Office of E.C.  26 Stephenson)  27  28 (EXHIBIT 1178-42a - Sargent to AG)  29  30 (EXHIBIT 1178-42b-l - Loring to Sargent)  31  32 (EXHIBIT 1178-42b-2 - Loring to Vowell)  33  34 (EXHIBIT 1178-42b-3 - Loring to Vowell)  35  36 (EXHIBIT 1178-42b-4 - Loring to Vowell)  37  38 (EXHIBIT 1178-42b-5 - Loring to Vowell)  39  40 (EXHIBIT 1178-42b-6 - Vowell to Maclean)  41  42 (EXHIBIT 1178-42c - Loring to Vowell et al)  43  44 (EXHIBIT 1178-42d - Sargent to AG)  45  46 (EXHIBIT 1178-42e - Stephenson to AG)  47 21029  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (EXHIBIT 1178-42f - Loring to AG)  2  3 (EXHIBIT 1178-42g - Flewin to AG)  4  5 (EXHIBIT 1178-42h - Stephenson to AG)  6  7 (EXHIBIT 1178-43 - Deputy Prov. Secty. to  8 Fitzstubbs)  9  10 (EXHIBIT 1178-44 - Prov. Secty. to E.H.  11 Hicks-Beach)  12  13 (EXHIBIT 1178-45 - Prov. Secty. to F.W. Valheau)  14  15 (EXHIBIT 1178-46 - Omineca Herald article entitled  16 "County Court Hazelton")  17  18 (EXHIBIT 1178-47 - Omineca Herald article entitled  19 "Small Debts Court")  20  21 (EXHIBIT 1178-48a - Fitzgerald to R.A. Brown)  22  23 (EXHIBIT 1178-48b - Vowell's appointment (Notice))  24  25 (EXHIBIT 1178-48c - Cariboo Sentinel articles re  26 "Regina v. Tommy")  27  28 (EXHIBIT 1178-48d - Fitzstubbs to Prov. Secty.)  29  30 (EXHIBIT 1178-48-1 - Brown to Prov. Secty.)  31  32 (EXHIBIT 1178-49 - Fitzgerald to Prov. Secty.)  33  34 (EXHIBIT 1178-50 - Colonist articl entitled  35 "Return of the H.M.S. Scout")  36  37 (EXHIBIT 1178-51 - Green, A.E. (Methodist  38 Missionary) to Prov. Secty.)  39  40 (EXHIBIT 1178-52a - Glenn et al to Walsh)  41  42 (EXHIBIT 1178-52b - Tomlinson to Prov. Secty.)  43  44 (EXHIBIT 1178-52c - Woodcock to Prov. Secty.)  45  46 (EXHIBIT 1178-53 - Smith, Thomas R. (Asst. Commr.)  47 to Prov. Secty.) 21030  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (EXHIBIT 1178-54 - Constable Brown's Reports dated  2 August 31 and September 8, 1874)  3  4 (EXHIBIT 1178-55 - Colonist article re "Hazlenut"  5 letter)  6  7 (EXHIBIT 1178-56a - Colonist article re Letter  8 from R.C. Woods)  9  10 (EXHIBIT 56a-l - Woods, R.E. to AG)  11  12 (EXHIBIT 1178-56b - Colonist article entitled  13 "Return of Superintendent Roycraft")  14  15 (EXHIBIT 1178-56b - Colonist article entitled "The  16 Skeena Tragedy")  17  18 (EXHIBIT 1178-56c - Petition from Lome Creek)  19  20 (EXHIBIT 1178-56d - Prov. Secty. to Clifford et  21 al)  22  23 (EXHIBIT 1178-56e - W.H. Dempster to Prov. Secty.  24 with Petition)  25  26 (EXHIBIT 1178-56f - Indian residents at Kitwanga  27 and other villages to AG)  28  29 (EXHIBIT 1178-56g - Colonist article entitled "The  30 Youmans' Incident")  31  32 (EXHIBIT 1178-56h - Colonist article entitled  33 "Youmans' Murder Case")  34  35 THE COURT:  We'll reserve Exhibit number 1179 for volume 4.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, my lord.  Does your lordship have volume 4  37 now?  3 8    THE COURT:  Yes.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   Under -- and I'm -- if your lordship has reserved  41 Exhibit 1179 for this volume, I understand under tab  42 57 is the newspaper account from the Colonist of the  43 trial of Mr. Youmans' murderer, and under tab 58 is a  44 letter dated September 1884 from Mr. Green?  45 A  Mr. Green, I think it is.  46 Q   Jennings, I'm sorry?  47 A   Yes, Jennings, right. 21031  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   He said a few days ago the reference:  2  3 "A.E. Green and I were in the Indian village of  4 Kit-au-Max, the forks of Skeena, where we had an  5 interview with the friend of the murderer, the  6 late A.C. Youmans.  We wish to lay before them  7 their law in regard to their friend."  8  9 And he says we did that and then goes on to talk about  10 the fact that they were -- the tribes -- this is at  11 the top of page 3 of the letter:  12  13 "The tribes around we found in greatly disturbed  14 state, owing to the false report which had  15 preceded us, that the old murderer was sentenced  16 to be hanged."  17  18 And they said that they had avoided -- were able to  19 avoid some violence.  And then, my lord, under -- yes,  20 the trial had not taken place at the time of this  21 letter.  22 Q   Yes.  Under the same tab is a sessional paper, which  23 reproduces at page 279 and at page 280 correspondence  24 relating to the Youmans matter, the letter from the  25 chiefs with respect to Youmans is September the 7th,  26 1884, is at page 279?  27 A   Right.  28 Q   And there's a reply to that, is there --  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   -- Mr. Williams?  Yes.  At the bottom of page 282, my  31 lord, is the reply of the Provincial Secretary dated  32 the -- it's either the 18th or the 13th of October.  33 A   I think it's the 13th.  34 Q   Yes.  And that refers to the letter of September 7th?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And he goes on to say that Ha-at will be fairly dealt  37 with, he will have a fair trial?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And pointing out the difference between the Queen's  40 law and the Indian law to which the chiefs have  41 referred?  42 A   I think pointing out perhaps the greater effectiveness  43 or superiority, if you like, of the Queen's law.  44 Q   Right.  45 A   He says:  46  47 "Besides, the Queen's law is better than yours, as 21032  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 you will see."  2  3 Q   And finally, under tab 59 is Chief Mountian's letter  4 of August of 1884 acknowledging receipt of watch and  5 chain for his services to the Superintendent Roycraft  6 and his party?  7 A   Yes.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  9 THE COURT:  Of course he wouldn't have written this himself,  10 would he?  11 A   No, I don't think so, my lord.  It was probably  12 written by one of the missionaries at Greenville.  13 THE COURT:  Mm-hmm.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  15 Q   And what have you got under tab 60a -- well, before I  16 go on to that, the -- what is introduced at tab 60a is  17 the Kitwancool Jim affair; is it not?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And your lordship will recall that on February the  20 1st, 1888 Kitwancool Jim is alleged to have murdered a  21 rival for a seat in the feast.  Whatever the reason  22 was, there was the death of another Indian, and on  23 June the 18th, 19th, Constable Homans(?) and Constable  24 Green sought to arrest Kitwancool Jim, and he was  25 shot, and then there will be documents in here that  26 Mr. Williams will refer to about the desire of  27 Kitwancool Jim's father desiring justice, and the  28 unrest, a false report of the death of two white men,  29 and which resulted in the calling out of C battery of  30 the artillery.  Perhaps by way of background, you  31 might now refer to tab 60a and tell his lordship what  32 that is.  33 THE COURT:  Is this in one of the reports?  34 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, my lord, it's referred to at —  35 THE COURT:  Here we are, yes, tab 60a, thank you.  36 A   This at tab 60a, my lord, is an extract from the  37 Barbeau-Beynon material.  It's an interview with Mrs.  38 Anna Campbell conducted at Gitsegukla in 1924.  It  39 sets out rather succinctly the details of the killing  40 by -- the shooting by Kitwancool Jim of Nits, who was  41 his brother-in-law.  And from the -- from Mrs.  42 Cambell's recollection, I don't think she talks about  43 vying for position at the feast, I think that was  44 referred to in some of the other material.  This  45 recollection, I think, is confined to the suggestion  46 that the killings explained by the belief of  47 Kitwancool Jim that in some way Nits had -- had been 21033  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 responsible for the death from measles, or for the  2 death anyway, of two of Kitwancool Jim's children, and  3 Kitwancool Jim, according to this, ran into her and  4 lay and wait, perhaps for Nits, in the trail towards  5 Kitwanga and shot him, and the poor man lived for two  6 or three days after being shot.  She records how  7 officers came to investigate and she records -- she  8 says at the top of the third page of her recollection  9 that she herself had been sworn in as a special  10 constable:  11  12 "I was appointed a special constable myself in that  13 case."  14  15 This was the Kitwancool Jim shooting that she's  16 talking about:  17  18 "And I stayed here with Washburn."  19  20 And then she goes on to the shooting by Green,  21 Constable Green of Kitwancool Jim himself.  According  22 to her the shooting occurred -- shooting of Kitwancool  23 Jim occurred when he ran out of the house with a  24 pistol in his hand, Green followed him out of the  25 house, and Gamxmalumx, that's Kitwancool Jim, I  26 believe, shot twice, but he never tried to shoot the  27 man that was following him, and he went -- this is  28 from the last page:  29  30 "And he went to the rear of the house looking to  31 the trail in another direction.  And Green coming  32 from behind him shot him."  33  34 And the last -- the very last sentence in the  35 recollect of the interviewer, she says:  36  37 "And it was at that time" --  38  39 This is at the time of the funeral of Kitwancool Jim:  40  41 "It was at that time that Tuposa shot" --  42  43 The name I cannot pronounce, that is a reference to  44 the shootings which occurred at Gitsegukla as the  45 direct result of the -- of the shooting of Kitwancool  46 Jim, and Tuposa in the other material is the man who's  47 referred to as Tobus, T-O-B-U-S.  And it was part and 21034  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 parcel of the whole -- well, I should -- perhaps I  2 shouldn't say it was part -- it was contemporaneous  3 with -- virtually contemporaneous with the shooting of  4 Kitwancool Jim.  Tobus shot in Gitsegukla a man who  5 was I think related to Kitwancool Jim, although I'm  6 not sure about that.  In any case, shot and killed  7 him, and Tobus himself was shot and killed by the  8 chief of the Gitsegukla village, a man named Mola-han,  9 and Mola-han was arrested for that and was when there  10 was questions -- perhaps I'm jumping ahead here.  11 There was an inquest into that shooting of Tobus by  12 Mola-han, and Mola-han was found to act in  13 self-defence and was justified in shooting him.  But  14 these two events, the shootings at Gitsegukla and the  15 shooting of Kitwancool Jim, caused --  16 THE COURT:  Well, there were three shootings then?  17 A   Yes.  18 THE COURT:  There was the shooting by Kitwancool Jim, then the  19 shooting of Kitwancool Jim?  20 A   Yes.  21 THE COURT:  And the shooting at Gitsegukla?  22 A   Yeah.  There were four -- four dead people, but --  23 THE COURT:  Two shootings?  24 A   Three episodes, you might say.  25 THE COURT:  Two shootings at Gitsegukla?  26 A   Yes.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  28 Q   And the documents relating to the shooting of Tobus by  29 Chief Mola-han is also in here, my lord, or I can  30 identify them in a minute or so.  Under tab 60b is a  31 document that refers to the desire on the part of  32 Kitwancool Jim's father for justice?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And that's -- there are two letters in, one is -- one  35 is a July 18th to Mr. — both to Mr. Robson?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And —  38 A   Yes, the other one is from the father of Kitwancool  39 Jim.  40 Q   That's the second one?  41 A   The second one.  42 Q   Yes.  And —  43 A  And this has a -- contains a version of the -- of his  44 son's actions, which I think is at some variance with  45 other accounts.  46 Q   And then there is Robson -- Green's letter of March  47 the 14th, and that gives the version of the -- the 21035  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 nature of the dispute between the man that Kitwancool  2 Jim killed and Kitwancool Jim himself?  3 A   Yes.  I think -- yes, it does.  I think this was the  4 one which he talks about the dispute over the position  5 of the feast.  6 Q   Yes, all right.  Now, under 60d is a long document  7 which is sometimes referred to as the full account of  8 the affair which was forwarded to the federal  9 government, the Dominion government, by the provincial  10 government, the basic reason for that being the  11 question of who was going to pay for the calling out  12 of the soldiers?  13 A  A lot of discussion about it, yes.  14 Q   And your lordship will see in the second page the  15 statement of the subject matter of this document.  16 It's dated the 21st of October, 1888 and transmits  17 full account of the disturbance amongst the Indians of  18 British Columbia, and it has two sets of numbers, one  19 at the top, some of which are not legible, and a later  20 paging at the bottom.  The first -- beginning at page  21 5 is a copy of the report of the Lieutenant-Governor  22 and counsel of the province, which summarizes the  23 events which took place, and on the appendices to this  24 report there are a number of documents, some of which  25 have been referred to in evidence already.  But the --  26 at page 41 in there is the report of Superintendent  27 Roycraft and Captain Fitzstubbs of the meeting which  28 they convened of the chiefs of the area?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And it contains the responses of the chiefs to the  31 statements made by the Superintendent Roycraft and  32 Captain Fitzstubbs?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And for what purpose do you -- you have had regard to  35 that in the -- reaching your opinion in respect to the  36 acceptability and amenability of white law in the  37 claims area?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Are there any parts of that that you wish to refer his  40 lordship to, without reading them, but just  41 identifying the parts that you rely upon?  42 A  Well, I think the -- it's very difficult to pick and  43 choose, it's a long excerpt.  Quite apart from  44 anything else, what -- quite incidentally, one has to  45 admire the quality of penmanship that was used in  46 those days.  It's a beautifully penned document.  47 These are the minutes, starting at page 41, these are 21036  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 minutes of the meetings which Roycraft evidently took  2 or was taken by a court reporter there, and he refers  3 to them in the correspondence somewhere, and this is a  4 reproduction of Roycraft's or the -- the court  5 reporter's shorthand notes.  He -- both he and  6 Fitzstubbs addressed the gathered chiefs and people.  7 There were a lot of people there.  He says:  8  9 "There were no less than 13 chiefs representing all  10 five different tribes" --  11  12 This is on the first page, my lord.  And the names of  13 the chiefs are given there and their tribes, very hard  14 to summarize this rather lengthy account of the  15 gathering, but both Fitzstubbs and Roycraft in essence  16 said that we're here to tell you that the law of the  17 land is going to be applied, the white man's law is  18 going to be applied regardless, even if it means the  19 use of military force to do so, something which they  2 0 would very much regret.  I think Roycraft somewhere in  21 here refers to the fact that he had decided not to  22 bring up the militia because he didn't think it was  23 necessary that he -- but the fact that he and --  24 Roycraft and Fitzstubbs were there as representing the  25 government, that the native population there listening  26 to them must understand that no effort would be spared  27 by the authorities to enforce the law.  Somewhere he  28 uses the phrase like "The Skeena, the law will not be  29 diverted from its course".  30 Q   Yes.  The -- those statements are found, as you say,  31 in what was transcribed at the beginning of the  32 document, it's --  33 A  And then the chiefs themselves responded.  34 Q   Yes?  35 A   Including Mola-han, incidentally, who had been  36 discharged at his inquest, and one of the chiefs even  37 soluted the court reporter.  He said "Great chiefs and  38 you writer", this is at page 54.  Rather a nice touch,  39 I thought.  But the chiefs in effect said that "We  40 understand what you say, we will try to comply with  41 what you have told us".  42 Q   It's stated on page 41 that Mrs. Hankin acted as  43 interpreter and Mr. David L. Chalmers took the report  44 of proceedings?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   I believe you've told us who Mrs. Hankin was, but  47 perhaps you might repeat that at this point? 21037  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   She was the widow of Thomas Hankin, had lived in  2 Hazelton since 1871, when she had married Hankin, had  3 lived all that time there, was fluent in the language,  4 and was soon to marry Mr. Loring, who became Indian  5 agent at the end of 1889, or the fall of '89.  6 Q   And she herself was a person having some Indian blood?  7 A   I'm not sure.  I believe -- I'm told by her family  8 that it is so, but it was not Gitksan in any case, it  9 it may have been Dene perhaps, or Carrier.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  11 THE COURT:  Shall we adjourn, Mr. Goldie?  12 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Thank you, my lord.  13 THE COURT:  Two o'clock, please.  14 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  15  16 (LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT TAKEN AT 12:30)  17  18 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  19 a true and accurate transcript of the  20 proceedings herein transcribed to the  21 best of my skill and ability  22  23  24  25  26 Graham D. Parker  27 Official Reporter  28 United Reporting Service Ltd.  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 2103?  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Goldie.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   Thank you, my lord.  We were dealing with the  7 Kitwancool Jim episode, and I have noted I believe the  8 document at 60D, which is the full report, and I won't  9 go into the other references that I have on that.  It  10 is enough that it has been marked -- enough that it  11 has been noted as it has so far.  And then under 61,  12 well, I should say 60E, is a statement of Constable  13 Homan's which gives his version of the actual events  14 that led to Kitwancool Jim's death?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   60F is the newspaper account of July 17th, 1888, the  17 right-hand column being the departure of sea battery.  18 And 60G is another reference back to the full account?  19 A  And a party of ten constables went up with the -- ten  20 special constables went up with the militia.  21 MR. GOLDIE:   Right.  22 THE COURT:  Does it say how many members of the militia were  23 included in this mission?  24 THE WITNESS:   About 80, my lord.  25 THE COURT:  Eighty?  26 THE WITNESS:  Eighty.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  28 Q   And the constables went up to Hazelton?  29 A   They actually went to Hazelton, yes.  30 Q   The troops were -- stayed downriver?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   61A is Captain Fitzstubbs' letter of -- report to the  33 Attorney-General of 24th July, 1888, and that was  34 before the meeting that you referred to that he and  35 Roycraft had with the chiefs at Hazelton; is that  36 correct?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And 61B is Fitzstubbs at Hazelton on the 25th of July  39 writing a day after his earlier letter and --  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   -- referring to additional murders that we have -- you  42 have already referred to.  61C was another reference  43 to the full account.  D is in part Constable  44 Washburn's report of June the 27th?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 Q   And —  47 A   It's missing a page, but the page is not existent. 21039  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Do we know the date?  2 MR. GOLDIE:  3 Q   The date's on the last page, my lord.  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   June the 27th, 1888.  6 Q   And then at 61E is the minutes of the inquest into the  7 death of the Indian Tobusk at the hands of Chief  8 Mola-han?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And appended to it are the notes of evidence?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And I believe Mrs. Hankin was the interpreter in  13 respect of those also?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And it was on the basis of that evidence that the  16 coroner's jury came to the conclusion that -- Tobias  17 or Tobusk?  18 A   Tobusk.  19 MR. GOLDIE:   -- came to his death at the village of Kitseguecla  20 on or about the 9th of July last by a gunshot wound  21 inflicted by Chief Mola-han.  22 I'm at the first page, my lord, of that.  23 THE COURT:  Yes, I have it.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  25 Q   "We further find that the said Chief Mola-han was  26 justified in shooting the deceased Tobusk."  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And finally in this sequence there is the Colonist  29 account giving the return of the -- of Superintendent  30 Roycraft and noting that Constable Green has been  31 committed for trial?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Now, 62, my lord, is another reference back to the  34 full account.  63 is the same thing.  Those -- and 64,  35 if you would please refer to that, that is the  36 instructions to Roycraft?  37 A   From the Attorney-General.  38 Q   Yes.  And that's of July the 16th, is it, 1888?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And 65 is Fitzstubbs' report to the Attorney-General  41 of the 25th of July which -- one of which we've seen  42 already?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And 66 is the Roycraft's report to the  45 Attorney-General of August the 3rd and --  46 A   That's right.  47 Q   And it's in that letter that he states that he has 21040  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  MR.  GOLDIE  23  24  25  26  THE  COURT:  27  MR.  GOLDIE  28  THE  COURT:  29  MR.  GOLDIE  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  1  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  MR.  GOLDIE  42  43  THE  COURT:  44  MR.  GOLDIE  45  THE  COURT:  46  MR.  GOLDIE  47  THE  COURT:  advised the commanding officer of the battery that  they may return to Victoria?  Yes.  And 67 is again the same report from the Colonist, but  it's in there, my lord, for another reference in that  report.  Now, you have since or you have determined what  the outcome was of the trial of Constable Green?  Yes.  I -- at first, and I think I've said in my  report that I was -- I did not know what the outcome  had been, and I think I said that I surmised that the  charge against him had been stayed.  However, I was  wrong in that.  He was in fact tried and he was tried  at Nanaimo and he was acquitted.  He was tried in  Nanaimo at a special assize court.  This is really why  I couldn't find it.  It wasn't listed in the regular  assizes, but it was a special sitting.  It was on the  5th of November of 1888, at Nanaimo, as reported in  the Colonist of November the 8th, 1888.  That's under tab 69, my lord?  69.  :   Now, that carries us through your report from page  35 to 42.  I'll refer to page 43 in a minute, but the  excerpts that we find on page 38 are quoting  Fitzstubbs, and then --  Page 48?  :  I'm sorry, page 38 of his report, my lord.  38.  And you've already made reference to these.  These are  all from the minutes of the meeting that Fitzstubbs  and Roycraft addressed, and which is found under tab  60D, my lord, beginning at the page Mr. Williams  referred to, page 41?  Actually, the quotations in my report, my lord, were  drawn from the account of the minutes in -- published  in the Colonist.  Oh, I see.  Subsequently I saw the so-called full account. The --  I think they're identical in all substantial respects.  : All right. And you then sum up the nature of this  episode at page 42 and at the --  Sorry, what number is the full account?  :  60D.  Thank you.  :  I'm sorry.  No, that's fine.  Thank you. 21041  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   Yes, 60D.  It starts off with the transmittal letter  3 from the province to -- I'm sorry, from the secretary  4 of state's letter acknowledging receipt of the order  5 in council, which is transmitted to Ottawa by the  6 lieutenant governor on October 18th, 1888, and the  7 order in council itself starts at the page numbered 5  8 in the lower right-hand corner.  9 And that, my lord, is referred to as the full  10 account.  And it has, as I've indicated, the minutes  11 of the meeting and it also has reference to all the  12 matters that preceded it.  13 You refer to on page 43 to the -- some turmoil not  14 related to Kitwancool Jim, the Hudson's Bay Company  15 intended to substitute a pack train for that, and that  16 is referred to -- I believe we earlier referred to  17 that, my lord, under tab 53 in Volume 3.  That was the  18 Hudson's Bay Company complaining that they had been  19 threatened by the Indians as -- by reason of proposing  20 to substitute a pack train from Hazelton to Tatla Lake  21 I believe?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Now —  24 A   This certainly -- there was a lot happening at  25 Hazelton April, May, June and July of 1888.  This was  26 one of the sources of difficulties certainly.  27 Q   On page 44 you make reference to town meetings, and  28 that is referred to at tab 70C is it?  29 A   Yes, it's at the back of -- I'm sorry, there are a  30 number of items at 70C.  It's the final item.  It's  31 the letter of Fitzstubbs to the Attorney-General of  32 23rd of April, 1889, in which he encloses the minutes  33 of what happened at a meeting on the 19th of January  34 of 1889.  35 Q   Right.  And Loring's account that you refer to is  36 under tab 74?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   You state at page 44 there is no reference to any of  39 these meetings to land claims.  Was there any aspect  40 of land claims in respect of any of these matters  41 which occurred in 1888 and 1889?  42 A   No.  43 MR. GOLDIE:   My lord, that takes us on to 1893, but before I  44 leave that I'd like to deal with Volume 3 in the  45 documents which relate to communications to or from  46 government officials in the course of their duties.  47 And if your lordship could look at the index for a 21042  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 minute?  2 THE COURT:  Volume 3?  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   It begins at page 6, Volume 3, running from tab 34A  7 over to -- I'm sorry, I've lost the note I had of  8 the -- oh, it goes over to 56H.  I had a note of the  9 documents in the index.  Beginning at page 6, my lord.  10 Mr. Williams, with the exception of the documents  11 at tab 36, which is Mr. Kirby's application for a  12 post, the newspaper reports at 38A, 46, 47 --  13 A   I'm sorry, Mr. Goldie, I've got the wrong book in  14 front of me.  It's Volume 3 that you -- I'm sorry.  15 Q   Yes. I think the index is the same in each of the  16 volumes so if you look in the index in the front of  17 the volume beginning at page 6.  18 A   Right.  Yes.  19 Q   And my question to you is that with the exception of  20 the documents I'm now going to identify, are the  21 remaining communications to or from government  22 officials in the course of their duties?  And the  23 exceptions are at tab 36, which I exclude by virtue of  24 it being an application for employment by Kirby, who  25 was the secretary?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   The newspaper articles at 38A, 46, 47, 48C, 50, Mr.  28 Green's letter to the provincial secretary at 51, the  29 packer's account at 52A, Mr. Tomlinson's letter of  30 52B, and Mr. Woodcock's letter of 52C, 53, which is  31 the Hudson's Bay Company's letter to the provincial  32 government, the newspaper accounts at 55, 56A, Mr.  33 Wood's account at 56A-1, the newspaper accounts at  34 56B, the petition at 56C, the provincial secretary to  35 Clifford of 56D, Dempster with the petition at 56E,  36 the Indian residents' petition at 56F, and the three  37 newspaper accounts at 56G, 56H, and 57 -- well, 57 is  38 in the next volume, but with the exception of those  39 are the remaining documents in there documents to or  40 from government officials in the course of their  41 official duties?  42 A   Yes.  I think, Mr. Goldie, you'd have to add  43 O'Reilly's diary entries as one of the exceptions.  44 Q   Yes, I'm sorry, thank you.  45 A  Which is 38B.  4 6 Q   Right.  Yes.  Thank you.  47 A   Otherwise I agree. 21043  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, 40C is one that my friend and the witness  2 did not mention and appears to be a newspaper article.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  4 Q   Yes, I agree with that.  5 Now, going on that page 45 of your report?  6 A   I wonder, my lord, if I -- there are two aspects of  7 the final aspects of the Kitwancool Jim affair which I  8 would like to draw to your lordship's attention, if I  9 may, because it touches on what I have been saying.  10 The widow of Kitwancool Jim was given such a hard time  11 by the relatives of the family that she was driven out  12 of the village, I think, but she was certainly harried  13 and hounded, and the government paid her a sum of  14 money which they called a douceur.  15 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, excuse me, this material as far as I can  16 see is not reflected anywhere in the summary of  17 opinion, and on that basis I object to the evidence  18 being given.  19 THE WITNESS:   It's in the documents, my lord.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  21 Q   Yes.  You're simply adding references to the  22 conclusion of the Kitwancool Jim affair, are you?  23 A   Yes.  Yes.  24 THE COURT:  It's in the documents?  25 THE WITNESS:   Yes, my lord it is.  26 THE COURT:  Can you assist us by —  27 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  2 8 THE COURT:  — showing us where?  29 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  It's the — it's referred to in the  30 Attorney-General's letter to Fitzstubbs of August  31 18th, 1888, which is at tab 70D, 70D, and which letter  32 also refers to a reward to be paid to the Indian at  33 Kitwancool who was offered a reward in order to point  34 out to the police who had come to arrest him who  35 Kitwancool Jim was.  And an Indian in the village  36 identified Kitwancool Jim on the promise of a reward  37 of $100.  38 Now, the douceur is referred to in the  39 Attorney-General's letter of August 18th, 1888, on the  40 second page, which he says:  41  42 "You will be good enough to report as to the  43 propriety of the government extending a douceur  44 say of $100 to the widow of Kitwancool Jim."  45  46 That is referred to in Fitzstubbs' letter which is  47 at tab 61B, the letter of the 25th of July of 1888. 21044  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 I'm sorry, this refers to the reward rather than the  2 douceur on the second page.  3  4 "A sum of $100 as a reward was offered by Mr.  5 Washburn to anyone who would lead the police to  6 the hiding place of Kitwancool Jim in order to  7 effect his speedy capture and render the stay  8 of the specials short and save much expense to  9 the government."  10  11 And then in Fitzstubbs' letter to the  12 Attorney-General, this is at tab 31C, my lord, a  13 letter of 30th of September of 1888, at the bottom of  14 the third page Fitzstubbs says this:  15  16 "With respect to a donation to the widow of  17 Kitwancool Jim, it would be a graceful act and  18 indeed one of humanity.  She was stripped of  19 all she had by the harpies of his tribe and  20 turned out to wander in the woods subsisting as  21 best she could in constant fear of her life.  22 One evening she presented herself here in  23 tatters saying the Indians would kill her  24 sooner or later and that if she had offended  25 she preferred to be killed by the whites."  26  27 Q   All right.  Thank you.  There were circumstances  28 which -- and we've already referred to this, of  29 circumstances at the time of prior events, and you  30 refer to the effect of those in -- or you refer by  31 reference to the documents at tabs 70A, B, C and D, to  32 the effect of the Kitwancool police action and  33 military action on those -- pursuit of those prior  34 events, do you?  35 A   Yes.  36 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, I'm not sure I understand the question.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  38 Q   Well, either do I.  39 A   The -- well, one of the other -- I'm not sure, but one  40 of the other things that happened, as I said, lots of  41 things were happening at Hazelton at this time, but  42 one of the other things that caused turmoil were the  43 two -- were the two killings at Kisgagas which were  44 intertwined with the Kitwancool Jim shooting.  45 Q   And is that referred to at tab 70A?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And this is Metlakatla, written by Anderson, 21045  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 provincial constable, to the Attorney-General on the  2 16th of May, 1888, that's early on, but after the  3 Kitwancool Jim affair, and that refers to the effect  4 of the Kitwancool Jim affair on that?  5 A   Yes.  In essence, what -- well, first of all,  6 Anderson's letter under tab 78, May 16th, 1888, on the  7 first page he gives a brief summary of what happened  8 at Kisgagas.  "I received...", third paragraph, my  9 lord:  10  11 "I received information from an Indian of the  12 Kisgagas village, Skeena River, of the stabbing  13 and killing of a woman of that place, and of  14 the shooting and retaliation of the murderer's  15 brother, by relations of the dead woman."  16  17 As I said, it became intertwined with the reaction  18 of the police, and the reaction of the Indian  19 community, in the Kitwancool Jim affair, and to the  20 point that the government soft-pedalled any  21 investigation of the Kisgagas murders because of  22 concern that it might make the resolution of the  23 Kitwancool Jim affair more difficult.  24 And so at first -- this all appears from these  25 documents, my lord, at these tabs, 70A, B, C, and D.  26 The government, as I said, soft-pedalled any reaction  27 to the Kisgagas murders, but ultimately when the  28 Kitwancool Jim affair began to cool off, after  29 Roycraft's and Fitzstubbs' meeting with the Indians,  30 an arrest was made of a man at Kisgagas, and he was --  31 there was a preliminary hearing held at Hazelton and  32 he was committed for trial, but unfortunately I have  33 not been able to find out what happened to him, if  34 indeed he was tried at all.  I don't know if -- he was  35 committed for trial, at least.  36 Q   The document under tab 71 is the instruction of the --  37 well, can you tell us what is under that tab, please?  38 A  Well, this deals with the Kisgagas -- in part with the  39 Kisgagas murder.  The -- Fitzstubbs was authorized by  40 the Attorney-General to offer a reward for the capture  41 of the murderer.  42 Q   Oh, yes.  And also that same letter authorizes  43 construction of a lock-up and other amenities?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And at tab 72 you have reproduced a copy of Captain  46 Fitzstubbs' letter to the Attorney-General of the 13th  47 of March, 18 -- I can't quite make it out. 21046  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   That's 18 —  2 Q   1890.  Oh, yes.  In which you refer to the appointment  3 of Big Louis as the constable there?  4 A   Yes.  The reference in the first page of the letter to  5 the arrest of -- arresting one, something, "packed,  6 charged with murder".  That is a reference to the  7 Kisgagas --  8 Q   All right.  9 A   -- murder.  10 Q   All right.  And I think I've referred to -- well, I'm  11 not sure whether I have referred to the document at  12 tab 74.  13 A   But this was a -- this is a report by Loring and one  14 that I have perhaps loosely characterized as a town  15 meeting.  16 Q   Yes.  17 A   This one was at Kispiox.  18 Q   In October of 1889?  19 A   Yes, it was a separate different meeting from the one  20 that Fitzstubbs reported on.  A later one.  21 Q   Yes.  Now, I think that that does bring us to 1893,  22 page 45 of your report, and you make reference on that  23 page to the removal of a Christian Indian from a  24 cemetary or a place of burial at the request of his  25 father, a chief at Kitwanga, who was not a Christian,  26 and that was opposed by Mr. Tomlinson, the missionary,  27 and the father turned to Mr. Loring for his assistance  28 in recovering the body; is that correct?  29 A   Yes.  Very briefly, my lord, what happened here, and  30 borne out by these documents, is that a young Indian  31 lad from -- a young man from Kitwanga moved to  32 Meanskinisht and became a Christian and --  33 THE COURT:  Sorry, where did he move to?  I'm not sure I know  34 how to spell that word.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  It's M-e-a-n-s-k-i-n-i-s-h-t.  36 THE COURT:  — i-n-i-s-h-t?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  — i-n-i-s-h-t.  I'm assuming Mr. Williams is  38 correct in his spelling, and it's at line 5 on page  39 45.  40 THE COURT:  Where is that?  41 THE WITNESS:   It's downriver from Hazelton, my lord.  I'm not  42 sure how far down.  It's in the claim area.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  44 THE WITNESS: And he came there under the influence of Mr.  45 Tomlinson and was converted to Christianity and died  46 soon after at the age of 21 I think.  His father was  47 a -- lived at Kitwanga, and after he was buried in 21047  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 consecrated ground at Meanskinisht, his father, who  2 was not a Christian, wanted the body exhumed, removed,  3 and brought back to Kitwanga for burial among other  4 relatives. This caused, if Tomlinson is to be believed  5 in his letter, it caused great distress among the  6 Christian community at Meanskinisht that this young  7 man who evidently had specifically asked to be buried  8 there, should be taken away and buried in  9 non-consecrated ground.  10 The father of the boy came to Loring to have him  11 exercise, do what he could to get the body removed.  12 Loring said he had no authority.  Eventually the chief  13 at Kitwanga, who I think was Siimadeeks, came to  14 Loring, and according to Loring at least, pleaded with  15 him to do what was ever -- whatever was necessary.  16 And then the result was a permit was issued under the  17 authority of the graveyard removal act I think it was,  18 graveyard act amendment act of 1891, and permission  19 was given to remove the body and bury it at Kitwanga.  20 That permit was issued over the objections of -- well,  21 over the strong reservations at least of Tomlinson who  22 said that he would accept the situation.  And the body  23 was removed on the application by Loring on behalf of  24 the father at Kitwanga.  25 Q   And that's -- the documents you rely on are at tab  26 75A, B, and C?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And then at page 47 you make reference to the Babine  29 Fishery matter in 1906?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Now, there's been a fair amount of evidence given  32 here.  Mr. Morrell gave evidence on this, my lord, and  33 it related to -- he made reference, specific  34 reference, to enforcement by an officer by the name of  35 Helgason.  Would you have some documents I believe  36 under tab 76A through E?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Could you just summarize what you have there, please,  39 or what the story they tell I should say?  40 A  Well, the story that they tell is the -- firstly,  41 I'm -- at least I'm not sure, I'm virtually certain  42 that this is outside the claim area, but the matter,  43 as far as the court proceedings were concerned, that  44 they were held at Hazelton.  The Indians, a group of  45 Indians, were charged with several offences,  46 intimidation and theft, and there was a good deal of  47 anxiety on the occasion.  I -- what I think is an 2104?  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 overheated reaction by the people in Hazelton when the  2 news of the affair became known.  They were talking  3 about sending in a large force to protect the  4 community in light of this insurrection at Babine, but  5 ultimately there was never anything of that kind done.  6 Ultimately the Indians themselves gave themselves  7 up and stood trial at Hazelton and were convicted, and  8 the returns of their convictions are here among the  9 documents.  They were given the option of a fine and  10 they were given a fine, I think it was $20, and some  11 imprisonment in default.  On the --  12 Q   The returns being under 76A is it?  13 A   76A, yes.  14 Q   Yes.  15 A  And oh, there was a charge of incitement against one  16 of them, and they were -- they were convicted, and  17 they elected to serve their -- take their sentence in  18 jail, on a matter of principle I think, and they were  19 in fact incarcerated at New Westminster.  The offences  20 were indictable, and they were -- about a month after  21 their imprisonment they were released by order in  22 council.  23 Q   Right.  And all of that is recorded in the documents  24 down to 7 -- well, they continue into 76?  25  26  27  28 Q   Now, E is an excerpt, as I understand it, from the  29 life of Father Ceccola?  30 A   Ceccola I would pronounce it, yes, the pioneer Roman  31 Catholic missionary in the Moricetown Babine area.  32 His reminiscences have been collected.  There's a book  33 just recently published about him, incidentally, a  34 biography of him, which I have not read, but I've seen  35 reviews of.  He, on behalf of the Indians, went back  36 to meet with Cabinet Ministers and Sir Wilfred Laurier  37 in Ottawa with respect to this Babine Fishery affair,  38 and he reports or recalls in his recollections, page  39 75 onwards of the extract at tab 76E, reports on the  40 meeting and what was said and what was told them by  41 the Cabinet or members of the Cabinet that they met  42 with.  43 Q   Right.  And at page 47 of your report under the  44 heading of "Babine Fishery" you make reference to an  45 episode at Moricetown and the rather mysterious death  4 6 of a young Indian boy which led to demands for revenge  47 against white people.  A  Yes.  Q  A  Yes.  Yes.  7 6A  to   E?  Q  Now,  E   is   an   ex 21049  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Now, with respect to the young Indian boy episode,  2 you have collected certain documents with respect to  3 that?  4 A   Yes, at tab 77A and 77B.  I was at first a bit  5 mystified about the cause of this, but I think it was  6 from Mr. Galois' -- one of Mr. Galois' -- some of his  7 material that was shown me.  I think he's pinpointed  8 it, and it apparently is a young lad had been working  9 for a man named Cowan who was -- had a great -- had a  10 supply of liquor with him.  I don't know whether he  11 was boot-legging or what he was doing, but he had this  12 liquor and either he gave some to the boy, or as was  13 suggested, the boy had broken into the supply.  In any  14 event, the young lad became intoxicated and froze to  15 death apparently.  This caused much -- much like the  16 Youmans affair, I suppose, the family of the young boy  17 became very angry about this and, as far as Cowan was  18 concerned, and threatened -- threatened him or his  19 family with the result that they came into Hazelton  20 under Kirby's advice, who was -- Kirby was the  21 provincial constable at Hazelton at the time, and  22 Cowan I think was tried for -- I suppose for  23 supplying, but was acquitted I believe.  24 Q   At any rate, you have the relevant documents under 77A  25 and B and --  26 A   Dr. Galois, I'm sorry.  27 Q   Yes.  All right.  Now, you next deal with the years  28 1908 and 1909, but you deal with some of the prior  29 years under tab 78 to 90, and that is information that  30 you wish to have before the court with respect to some  31 of those intervening years?  32 A   Yes.  The -- well, perhaps one needn't make too much  33 of it.  The extract from the Colonist, for example,  34 78, simply records the state of affairs at Hazelton,  35 and in early in 1871 of the story under the item  36 heading, my lord, "News from Skeena Forks Etc.",  37 talking about the people wintering there and the  38 grand, as they call it, grand treat given by Mr. and  39 Mrs. Hankin to the Indian children, some 40 of them.  40 Just rather a nice little story about the state of  41 affairs in Hazelton in 1871.  42 Q   And under tab 7 9A you have collected documents about  43 the general state of affairs in 1889?  44 A   Yes.  This is a letter under that -- under tab 79A is  45 a letter from the Reverend John Field, who was the  46 Anglican missionary at that time in Hazelton, dated  47 September the 21st, 1889.  It's a letter to the 21050  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Honourable John Robson, who at that time I think was  2 the provincial secretary, he became premier a few  3 years later, and the letter is really an encomium of  4 Captain Fitzstubbs.  5 Without reading it all, he says that -- how much  6 the conditions in the district had improved since the  7 arrival of Fitzstubbs, who with a firm -- and I'm  8 paraphrasing here, just to get the sense of it -- with  9 a firm hand and fair nature and good and a just man,  10 had imposed his own character on the -- on the  11 community, and with the result that whereas when  12 someone -- Field first came there he said there were  13 unmistakeable signs of disaffection among the  14 community, I take it he means the Indian community,  15 and these under Fitzstubbs' guidance -- and then Field  16 pays him what Field considers to the ultimate tribute  17 at page 116 of his letter, my lord, the last page:  18  19 "Although myself a missionary, I have no  20 hesitation in saying that Captain Fitzstubbs  21 has done more than any other white man to raise  22 the people morally, temporally, and  23 intellectually."  24  25 And then Field goes on to ask for some money for  26 his church.  27 Q   And the two other letters dealing with that year, Mr.  28 Loring's of December 31st, 1889, addressed to Hamilton  29 Moffat, Acting Superintendent of Indian Affairs in  30 Victoria?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And under 79C is Field to Fitzstubbs of October 1889,  33 which apparently is the -- marks the end of  34 Fitzstubbs —  35 A  Well, he would -- Fitzstubbs was going out.  He had  36 not been well, and he did come back, but he was there  37 briefly at least in 1890, but he was on his way out of  38 the district here for health reasons.  And this is to  39 much the same effect as Field's letter to John Robson,  40 except it's to Fitzstubbs personally.  41 Q   And then under tab 80 is Loring for July 31st, 1890,  42 and this is a report of his to Vowell, and --  43  44 Q   Under tab 81 is 1891, Loring, of September, 1891, to  45  46  47 Q   And 82 is the years 1892, 1893, or I should say, June  A  Yes.  Q  Under tab 81 is 189  Vowell?  A  Yes.  Q  And 82 is the years 21051  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 the 30th, 1893, and that is Loring's letter which has  2 been referred to I believe already in which he sets  3 out the population of various bands and their state of  4 affairs?  5 A   Yes.  I'm not sure that he -- this is a different one  6 I think, Mr. Goldie.  This is -- he doesn't give  7 population figures in here.  8 MR. GOLDIE:   Oh, I'm sorry, I was just going by the headings.  9 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, on my reading of the document he does give  10 population figures, but the one that was referred to  11 was 1891.  12 THE WITNESS:   Yes, you're quite right.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  14 Q   Yes, yes, that's correct.  15 A   I haven't examined this document with that in mind.  16 It was the latter paragraph of it that caught my  17 attention, my lord, at page 301, stamped page 301:  18  19 "With regard to morals of all the bands of the  20 agency I could report favourably also of their  21 honesty, freedom from crime, and their regard  22 for authority."  23  24 THE COURT: Where's that?  25 THE WITNESS:   It's the concluding paragraph of his letter, my  26 lord, at stamped page 301, page 8 of his own  27 numbering.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  29 Q   And then there is a letter of July the -- under tab  30 83, a letter of July 3rd, 1885, it appears to be a  31 similar sort of letter, and would you perhaps refer to  32 the last paragraph?  33 A  At page -- this is at page 553, my lord, of the  34 stamped numbering.  35  36 "The Indians fears and apprehensions of former  37 fears", I think it is, "regarding a possible  38 aggressive policy of the white people toward  39 them have disappeared.  They are", and I make  40 that word "constantly", but I'm not sure of it.  41 "They are constantly striving to better their  42 condition.  Their general conduct has been  43 excellent."  44  45 Q   Under tab 84 is a letter from, or a copy of a letter,  46 February the 1st, 1896, from the Hagwilget chiefs to  47 Mr. Vowell, the Superintendent of Indian Affairs in 21052  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Victoria?  2 A   Yes.  Complaining about Loring.  3 THE COURT:  Is it dated?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  5 Q   The date is on the last page, my lord.  6 A   February the --  7 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  8 THE WITNESS:   — 1st, 1896, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  11 Q   And there they're expressing some concerns about Mr.  12 Loring, but stating that they are a good lot of people  13 ever since the white man came, having done nothing  14 wrong?  15 A   Yes.  16 THE COURT: What is this word "We head chiefs in Hagwilget..."  17 MR. GOLDIE:  "Hagwilget".  18 THE COURT: "Of the people belong to..."  What's that word?  19 MR. GOLDIE:  20 Q   Pa-tye-teen race?  21 A   I read it P-a, hyphen, t-y-e, hyphen, t-e-e-n.  22 THE COURT:  — t-y-e - t-e-e-n.  Yes.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  24 Q   Do you know what -- do you have a meaning for that  25 word?  2 6 A Do I?  27          Q   Yes.  2 8 A   No.  29 Q   All right.  Turn to tab 85.  30 A   He says at the last paragraph, page 357, my lord, or  31 the chiefs, rather, say:  32  33 "We are not averse to anything in shape of  34 white men taking up ranches among us and we'll  35 do what we can to protect them, seeing the  36 possible extinction of our hunting grounds and  37 game, it would be a most favourable  38 alternative, and the creating of farms would  39 teach us, to our knowledge no white man ever  40 found upon our grounds destitute was refused  41 shelter and departed full."  42  43 THE COURT:  Where do you see that?  44 MR. GOLDIE:  45 Q   That's page 357 in the upper right-hand corner I  46 believe.  It's the second to last page, my lord.  47 A   Earlier it said, the top of that page, that: 21053  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2 "We have never thought of doing wrong to violate  3 the law but this running a man in prison for  4 nothing, we don't want that."  5  6 That's a reference to allegedly high-handed action  7 on behalf of -- by Loring, rather, in imprisoning  8 somebody on unjustified grounds.  9 Q   Then under tab 85 you have Mr. Loring's report to Mr.  10 Vowell of November 30th, 1898?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And he concludes his letter by stating that:  13  14 "The Indians in the district are enjoying the  15 best of health, and peace, harmony, and  16 content, are evidently everywhere prevailing."  17  18 A   Prevailing, yes.  19 Q   Is that right?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Right.  And under tab 96 the -- another letter from  22 Loring to Vowell of December 31st, 1900, and he  23 concludes his letter by saying:  24  25 "It affords us great satisfaction to state that  26 everywhere throughout this agency is doing  27 well."  28  29 A   Yes.  30 THE COURT:  What number is that, please?  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   That's tab 86.  It's the last paragraph, my lord.  33 And then the situation in 1901, this is Loring's  34 report for March the 31st of that year?  35 A   Yes.  There's a -- there's an interesting aspect of  36 this letter.  Harking back to the evidence of Indians  37 working in the mines, in the last paragraph of this  38 letter, stamped page 456, stamped number 456, my lord,  39 he's talking about the mining activities among the  40 Indians and he says:  41  42 "In several instances they accompanied the  43 mining managers and owners of several  44 properties of the Omineca.  Among the latter  45 near the end of this month was Captain C. Black  46 of whom I am gratified here to mention due  47 bills to Indians were paid on presentation by 21054  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 their respective holder issued end of season,  2 1897, and amounted to $2,817.40.  The remainder  3 of the unpaid bills will no doubt also be  4 redeemed during the coming season."  5  6 Q   All right.  And 87A and B — or 87B, I should say, is  7 Loring to Vowell of August 31st, 1901?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And he too winds up by saying that the condition of  10 the Indians all through the district is highly  11 satisfactory?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And in 1902 under tab 88?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Is Loring to Vowell of June of 1902?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   What is -- can you read the third paragraph there?  18 A   "The Hagwilgets are coming in to trade.  While the  19 former" -- "While..." something "...the former  20 unceasingly strived to emulate the white man's ways  21 and customs, the latter remained yet somewhat passive  22 and unperturbed by things in way of new invention..."  23 I think it is.  24 Q   Yes.  25 A   "...outside of a nomadic." -- "Outside of their..."  26 something "...of a nomadic existence."  27 Q   Right.  Thank you.  28 A   It's —  2 9    THE COURT:  "Lives"?  No?  30 MR. GOLDIE:  31 Q   I think the last word is existence?  32 A   Yes.  Loring was of German background, my lord, or at  33 least his father was German, and his syntax and  34 sentence construction is sometimes very very laboured,  35 in addition to which his handwriting is hard to  36 decipher.  37 Q   And then there's a long document under tab 89 of  38 Loring's report to the Superintendent General of  39 Indian Affairs, Ottawa, for Hazelton July 9th, 1914,  40 and it is characterized as "My annual report and  41 statistical statement, also list of government  42 property in the agency to June 30th, 1904"; is that  43 right?  44  45  46  47  A  1904,  yes .  Q  A  19?  1904.  Q  Four,  yes .  I said 1914 21055  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A You said 1914, Mr. Goldie.  2 Q Yes.  3 A Yes.  4 Q And at the last page he states:  5  6 "Characteristics and Progress.  The Indians are  7 of good disposition and tractable.  The most  8 ambitious are those of Rocher deBoule and  9 Moricetown.  All are prepared to..."  10  11 I can't quite make out the next word.  12 A   I think it's "new".  Well, "meet the new conditions" I  13 think.  14 Q   Yes, "prepared to meet the new conditions."  15 A   "And movement of settlers into the valleys and  16 prairies..."  17 Q   Right.  18 A   "...around them will create.  Though this innovation  19 may not be up to their conception of things at  20 present, it surely will form in expedient the..." I  21 don't know "...line of their a change for the  22 better..."  He says it's a good thing in effect I  23 guess.  I'm not sure what that word is there.  24 THE COURT:  Shall we take the afternoon adjournment, please?  25 MR. GOLDIE:  All right, my lord.  26 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  This court stands adjourned for  27 a short recess.  28  2 9 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  30  31 I hereby certify the foregoing to  32 be a true and accurate transcript  33 of the proceedings herein to the  34 best of my skill and ability.  35  36  37 Tanita S. French  38 Official Reporter  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 21056  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:15)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   My lord.  Mr. Williams, you had read from one of Mr.  7 Loring's reports something which seemed to make a  8 distinction between the people that -- the Hagwilgets,  9 as Mr. Loring called them, and the other -- Hazelton  10 are the other Indians.  Did you find any other  11 references in his reports to differences between the  12 two, or distinctions he drew between the two peoples?  13 A  Well, he records -- how shall I say -- disputes  14 between the Hagwilgets and I think between others  15 of -- the other villages, but certainly between the  16 Hagwilgets and the Gitksan and the Gitsegukla people  17 too.  18 Q   Before I go to that, under tabs 90a and b there are  19 typewritten reports of Mr. Loring's of May 1905 and --  20 my lord, they are both May 1905?  21 A   Tab 90a is May the 31st, 1905, in which at the end of  22 it the last paragraph he says -- the second page of  23 the letter stamped page 402:  24  25 "The general health of the Indians exellent.  They  26 are well contended and have become on a footing  27 of great amity with the white settlers now  28 swarming the country, who could not so easily have  29 entered the Bulkley Valley from here, but for  30 crossing the Indians' bridges spanning the chasms  31 forming the narrow confines of the Bulkley River."  32  33 Q   Right.  And I guess the next one is June the 30th of  34 the same year?  35 A   June 30th, 1905, yes.  36 Q   Yes.  And he makes further reference to the change of  37 conditions brought about by the advent of the white  38 settlers.  That's at the bottom of the first page, my  39 lord?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And that he makes particular reference to the  42 Hagwilgets?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  And then you referred to some evidence of the  45 differences that he noted.  Will you refer to Mr.  46 Vowell's letter to Mr. Loring of August the 26th, 1905  47 under tab 91a. 21057  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  91?  2 MR. GOLDIE:  3 Q   91a?  4 A   Yes.  It's a fairly brief letter.  It's August 26th,  5 1905 from Vowell, who is the Superintendent of B.C. of  6 Indian Affairs:  7  8 "I have the honor to enclose a copy of a letter  9 dated the 14th instant, addressed to me by the  10 Chief of the Kitwangar tribe, with reference to  11 an alleged encroachment by the Kitsegucla Indians  12 on the fishery and Andemahl.  13 As you're aware, this place although claimed by  14 the Kitwangar people has never been declared a  15 reserve, and until it is, no exclusive right can  16 be given that band.  17 In the meantime you should advise the Indians that  18 they should not settle off their reserve without  19 permission especially upon ground not reserved for  20 Indian occupation.  21 You will also please tell the chief that Mr.  22 O'Reilly when advising the Indians could not have  23 referred to the land in question, it not being a  24 reservation."  25  26 The letter from the -- from Ghahk-Sim-a-deeks the  27 First Chief of Kitwangah, attached to that of August  28 14th, 1905, says this:  29  30 "When Judge O'Reilly surveyed our reservations he  31 told us that these lands were kept for our tribes  32 and that the reserve at Andamahl was for the  33 Kitwangah people.  Now a number of the Kitzegucla  34 people are coming onto the reserve and we do not  35 like it.  We have spoken to Mr. Loring about it  36 and he has told them they must go back to  37 Kitzegucla, but still they do not go, and we hear  38 that more are coming.  They have two reserves  39 of their own, and we ask that they be made to keep  40 to their own reserves and not trouble us.  We fear  41 that it may lead to more trouble if they are  42 permitted to encroach on us in this way.  Please  43 let me know if the reservation is not intended for  44 strangers as well as our own people; and will you  45 please make these people do what is right in this  46 matter."  47 2105?  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Under tab 91b you have an earlier letter of Mr.  2 Loring's to the Superintendent of Indian Affairs dated  3 July 1895?  4 A   Yes, July the 25th, I think it is.  5 Q   And he there records the -- the fishing by Hagwilget  6 people on Gitenmaax' territory.  Would you refer to  7 the second page on that?  8 A   Yes.  He deals -- this, my lord, starting at the  9 bottom of the second page of his letter under the  10 heading of Hagwilget village:  11  12 "The village of Hagwilget called Tsit" —  13  14 T-S-I-T.  15 A   I think so.  Titska, in -- I can't read that next one  16 and I'm afraid --  17 Q   In Gitksan?  18 A   Yes, I guess Gitksan, that's right.  19 Q   Yes?  20 A  21 "It is situated about three miles to the northeast  22 of Hazelton.  It's reserve comprises an area  23 of four hundred and fifty-five acres on both banks  24 of the Haguel-get River, at its big canyon, and  25 belongs to the Git-an-max or Hazelton band.  The  26 following may serve as an explanation to the facts  27 thus existing:  28 About twenty-nine years ago the Haguel-get River  29 caused to be obstructed by an immense rock  30 becoming detached, and blocked the canyon.  Hence  31 no salmon could go beyond it.  This circumstance  32 brought the Haguel-gets down onto Git-an-max  33 ground to hook salmon, for which privilege they to  34 this day pay a tribute in a lay of fish, to the  35 Git-en-Max chief.  The latter and his people  36 permitted Haguel-gets to build a village -  37 Haguelget, on said ground, at the left bank of the  38 canyon, at about the aforementioned time."  39  4 0 Q   All right.  And under the pink divider there's a  41 letter from Loring to Vowell of March 1904, and on  42 page 2 he makes reference to the reserve, Hazelton  43 reserve at Tsitks, T-S-I-T-K-S, seems to be the way he  44 spells it?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Which is on the Bulkley River near the forks or near  47 the junction of the two rivers? 21059  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  MR.  GOLDIE  22  THE  COURT:  23  MR.  GOLDIE  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT:  28  MR.  GOLDIE  29  THE  COURT:  30  MR.  GOLDIE  31  32  33  THE  COURT:  34  MR.  GOLDIE  35  36  1  37  38  39  A  40  MR.  GOLDIE  41  THE  COURT:  42  43  44  MR.  GOLDIE  45  Q  46  A  47  MR.  GOLDIE  Yes.  And —  He says at page 244, stamped page 244, my lord:  "To begin with, it must be stated that the herein  designated part of the Tsitks reserve" --  This is Hazelton reserve number 3, is my note of that:  "Was given for no reason other than Git-dum-gul-do,  Git-dum-gul-do?  "Git-dum-gul-do, chief of the Hazelton Indians, has  a fishing station on that side of the Bulkley  River.  The latter river is strictly speaking the  dividing line of the two distinct nations.  The  small item regarding the said fishery, the use of  which will...(read in)... Rocher De Bouille having  a reserve."  :  All right, thank you.  I haven't found that, please.  :  That's under the pink divider, tab 91b, my lord.  There's a pink divider and then there's Loring, letter  headed "British Columbia Babine Agency, Hazelton March  25th, 1904".  Well, there's two pink dividers.  :  Yes.  It's the first one.  Where was that passage, please?  :  It's on the second page, beginning with the -- it's  the second complete paragraph, beginning with the  words "To begin with".  Yes.  :  "it must be stated", and that -- and I'm not  referring to the next letter under the second pink  divider, I want you to go to tab 91c, Mr. Williams,  which is a typewritten letter from Mr. Loring to  Vowell of November 18th, 1909?  Yes.  :  And it appears that Loring --  I'm sorry, I want to go back a little, something  caught my attention there.  What was the date of that  letter that talked about the river being obstructed?  That's — I read that as 19 —  No, July 25th, 1895, my lord.  :  Yes. 21060  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  1895.  And he said the river became obstructed about  2 29 years ago?  3 A   Yes, previous to that.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  That's quite a bit later than the evidence in this  5 case so far.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  That would make it —  7 A   1866.  8 THE COURT:  1866, yes, all right.  Thank you, sorry.  You're now  9 at tab 91c.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  11 Q   Yes, my lord.  And it would appear that there has been  12 approval of dividing the Indian Reserve number 3  13 provided that both bands concur on the partition, and  14 that appears to reflect a recommendation made by Mr.  15 Loring?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And it appears that the division should be made in a  18 formal manner by written agreement signed by the  19 leading men of both bands in Loring's presence.  And  20 then would you refer to the next paragraph?  21 A   Yes.  Well, the next -- he says:  22  23 "In reply to the foregoing I have the honour to  24 state that to effect an agreement on the subject  25 between the two bands concerned is rendered  26 utterly impossible by the fact that these bands  27 are not even on speaking terms since that of Roche  28 Deboule refused to enter into league with those of  29 the Skeena in their extravagant demands on the  30 government or offer fight.  31 When impelled to write my letter of the 23rd of  32 July last, the Roche Deboule Indians came and  33 assured me that if the Hazelton Indians were to  34 attempt any fishing on their side, too, they  35 (Roche Deboule) would pick off the others from the  36 perches of their side (opposite) of the canyon,  37 and have their bodies float off to the sea as so  38 many flies.  39 I conceive no other way possible but simply to  40 effect a division, and since no one of either band  41 ever had a glimpse at the tracing containing  42 Tsitsk - for fear to precipitate a conflict - it  43 can cause neither gratification nor disappointment  44 when of necessity the belief being upheld by me  45 that the Bulkley river is the natural boundary  46 line of division and neither of the bands know  47 otherwise." 21061  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Mr. Williams, that brings us to page 48 of your  2 report, where you are discussing events of 1908 and  3 1909, and you state:  4  5 In these years there were a number of disturbances  6 in the Hazelton area.  They stemmed from claims  7 for land and other rights based on aboriginal  8 entitlement, stimulated by the visit to the  9 north-west coast of Joe Capilano."  10  11 Without referring to them in any detail, are these  12 references documented under your tabs 92, 93, 94, and  13 95a, being newspaper reports, and 95b, which I believe  14 is a telegram?  I'm sorry, a telegram is -- is  15 Constable Deane's report to Mr. Hussey?  16 A   It's telegram, 9 -- I have 95a is the telegram.  17 Q   Oh, yes?  18 A   Back and forth between Deane, who was the constable at  19 Hazelton, and his superior, Superintendent Hussey.  20 Q   And you have described the background by stating that  21 Mr. Capilano, or Chief Capilano:  22  23 "Claimed to have secured a commitment from King  24 Edward, with whom he had had an audience in  25 London, that the 'aboriginal proprietary rights  26 in the land are to be restored'."  27  28 There was a delegation to Ottawa in June 1908, the  29 meeting with the Prime Minister and several of the  30 ministers of Sir Wilfred Laurier's cabinet, and Sir  31 Wilfred's assurance that the matter would be looked  32 into.  And you state that:  33  34 "The meeting provoked high expectations amongst the  35 Indians."  36  37 And that is the subject matter of the telegram at 95a?  38 A   Yes.  3 9 Q   And that:  40  41 "late in 1908 the Indian agent" —  42  43 Mr. Loring:  44  45 "The police constable and others convinced  46 themselves that an Indian uprising was imminent  47 unless the Indian claims were met." 21062  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 And I understand that the documentary materials  2 relating to that are found at tabs 96a, b, and c?  3 A   I'm sorry, 95b, did you say, Mr. Goldie?  4 Q   I think 95b is Mr. Deane's report to Hussey of the 4th  5 of November, 1908?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And —  8 A   On this subject, yes.  9 Q   On this subject.  And then there's -- under 96a there  10 is Mr. Valleau's report to the Attorney-General of  11 November 4th, 1908.  Mr. Valleau is the government  12 agent?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And he appears not to have taken quite as extreme a  15 view as others have done.  16 A   No, but he got pretty worked up anyway, not so extreme  17 as Mr. Loring.  18 Q   And then at 96b we have Mr. Loring again, but this is  19 of June the 30th, 1908?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And he seems now to be a little less concerned?  22 A  Well, he was in June, yes.  This is before the  23 difficulties in November.  24 Q   Right.  25 A   But he doesn't -- June at least he certainly  26 anticipates no trouble.  27 Q   All right.  And then the next document is under 96c,  28 which is Mr. Deane's -- Constable Deane's report to  29 the Attorney-General of October of 1908, and he is  30 very -- he is substantially concerned, is he not?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And 96d, now that refers, I believe, to another  33 matter?  34 A   Yes, the following year.  35 Q   The following year.  And that was an incident where  36 some three Indians at Kitwanga were -- I'm sorry,  37 three Indians of Kitwanga stopped the surveyors?  38 A   They were -- I think they were intending settlers  39 rather than -- they were looking out the country, if  40 you like, with a view to settling in it.  41 Q   Right.  And this is 96d, the 5th of June, 1909, Deane  42 forwards a report or a statement from one Arthur  43 Skelhorne, who has sworn out an information against  44 three Indians who obstructed him and his partner that  45 month at Kitwanga?  4 6 A   Right.  47 Q   And Deane reports at the bottom of the page that: 21063  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 "The Indians say the Dominion Government are not  2 keeping their promise to them as the  3 Commissioner whom they promised through Mr. Loring  4 to come out here early in the spring to hear  5 their complaints has not arrived yet."  6  7 And he says that there is going to be some trouble?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And then there's Skelhorne's statement, which gives  10 the facts of his -- the facts of the matter  11 obstructing him, and then under -- following the  12 divider is the Omineca Herald of Saturday, June the  13 26th, and there is a statement of the trial of the  14 people who obstructed the --  15 A   Yes.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  And there's an enlargement of that page, the second  17 page in, my lord.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  2 0 Q   And they were found guilty and fined?  21 A   Yes.  The -- this is from the Omineca Herald of the  22 26th of June, 1909 under the heading of "Kitwangar  23 Indians Fined", my lord, second column from the left.  24 The newspaper reports that the holding up of two white  25 men on the trail and by threats and intimidation  26 forced them to abandon a proposed trip into the  27 Kitwangar valley.  The accused Indians did not deny  28 the charge only saying they were told to do what they  29 did by their chiefs; that it was part of their policy  30 to keep white men out until a commission could arrive  31 from Ottawa to investigate the question of enlarging  32 their reservation.  They were fined $20 and costs  33 amounting to $24 in each case, which was paid.  34 Q   Now, on June the 15th, and this is under tab 96e, Mr.  35 Valleau reported to the Attorney-General firstly?  36 A   Sorry, Mr. Goldie, we have a different man now.  This  37 is this letter of June 15th, 1909 is Allison.  Valleau  38 is gone.  39 Q   Right, thank you.  40 A   I surmise perhaps -- well, perhaps I shouldn't  41 surmise.  He left after the 1908 affair, if I can call  42 it that.  43 Q   Right.  And he reports -- he confirms a telegram and  44 notes that he advised the Attorney-General of the  45 request of Constable Deane to furnish him with 50  46 armed specials, and the last page he says:  47 21064  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 "The Indians all over the District are becoming  2 more or less hostile and intimidating many of the  3 settlers.  4 I do not anticipate any serious trouble but if the  5 question is not taken up with the Indian  6 Department and dealt with in a decisive manner,  7 the consequences in the near near future may be  8 serious."  9  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And then following that are the notes of a meeting  12 held at Kitwangar and Kitwancool Indians at the  13 village of -- well, it's Kitwangak?  14 A   Kitwangak.  15 Q   Oh yes, on June the 15th?  16 A   June 11th -- well, several meetings.  One on the 11th  17 and one on the 2nd --  18 Q   Yes.  And that's of interviews they had with or  19 statements that they had with people who were seeking  20 to settle?  21 A   Yes.  They -- they -- well, no.  It was apropos of --  22 of people seeking to settle, but the meeting was  23 actually with Deane.  24 Q   Yes?  25 A  And reference was made to people going into their --  26 into that area.  27 Q   And then under 96f is -- and this again is Mr.  28 Allison, is it?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Report to the Attorney-General of June 30th, 1909, and  31 there he talks about a good deal of unrest, but he  32 does not take the extreme view of the situation set  33 forth by Mr. Loring, and following that his -- is the  34 copy of Mr. Loring's letter of the -- of the 24th of  35 June, is sent to the Superintendent General of Indian  36 Affairs, and the first paragraph of which reads as  37 follows:  38  39 "Supplementary in regard to sundry reports and  40 telegrams from me during October last concerning  41 the unrest of the Indians of the Skeena, initiated  42 by one Kapelano and his emissaries, I have the  43 honour to state the following;"  44  45 And then follows his report, which indicates that very  46 serious things were in the wind.  47 A   Yes. 21065  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   And at the bottom of page 3 he notes that:  2  3 "The Hagwilgets have so far not joined the  4 movement, their grievances against the settlers,  5 having taken land, will be tenfold by comparison,  6 and a neglect in timely precaution may turn them  7 with the tide are realizing the full force of the  8 condition."  9  10 And then he wants to have 60 constables of the Royal  11 North-West Mounted Police with a quick firing gun  12 dispatched to Hazelton?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And —  15 A   He certainly goes in for the logistics of the thing.  16 Wants 40 of them to come up the Skeena minus horses  17 and 20 with horses via Quesnel, pincer movement, I  18 suppose he has in mind.  19 Q   And then the last document in this tab is under 96g,  20 that's from Constable Maitland-Dougall, is it?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Who by this time was the chief constable, and he's  23 reporting to --  24 A   Yeah.  This is — Mr. Goldie, this is 1910 here.  25 Q   Oh, this is another case we're coming to?  26 A   Yes.  I'm afraid it's a bit out of order.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  28 Q   Yes, all right.  Could I -- could I have you identify  29 that, however, and I'll tender this document as --  30 A   Yes.  This relates to another similar incident as that  31 as Kitwanga, but it took place again at Kitwanga, but  32 in 1910.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I tender Exhibit 1179, with each of the  34 documents listed under the tabs which begin at 57 and  35 continue through to 96g, identified by that number and  36 by the description in the index.  37 THE COURT:  All right.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  And I'm going to tender volume 5, which is a thin  39 volume:  And ask that a number be reserved for that.  4 0    THE COURT:  118 0.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 1179-57 - Colonist article entitled  43 "Youmans' Murder Case")  44  45 (EXHIBIT 1179-58 - Jennings to Prov. Secty.)  46  47 (EXHIBIT 1179-59 - Chief Mountain to Prov. Secty.) 21066  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (EXHIBIT 1179-60a - Barbeau interview with Mrs.  2 Anna Campbell)  3  4 (EXHIBIT 1179-60b - A.E. Green to Prov. Secty.)  5 (EXHIBIT 1179-60c - Green, A.E. to Prov. Secty.)  6 (EXHIBIT 1179-60d - Washburn's Despatch)  7  8 (EXHIBIT 1179-60e - Homans, James (Statement)  9  10 (EXHIBIT 1179-60f - Colonist article entitled "C  11 Battery Departs")  12  13 (EXHIBIT 1179-60g - Full account)  14  15 (EXHIBIT 1179-61a - Fitzstubbs to AG)  16  17 (EXHIBIT 1179-61b - Fitzstubbs to AG)  18  19 (EXHIBIT 1179-61c - Full Account)  20  21 (EXHIBIT 1179-61d - Extract of letter, Washburn to  22 AG)  23  24 (EXHIBIT 1179-61e - Roycraft's Report and Verdict)  25  26 (EXHIBIT 1179-61f - Colonist article entitled "The  27 Skeena Trouble")  28  29 (EXHIBIT 1179-62 - Full Account)  30  31 (EXHIBIT 1179-63 - Full Account)  32  33 (EXHIBIT 1179-64 - AG to Roycraft)  34  35 (EXHIBIT 1179-65 - Fitzstubbs to Attorney General)  36  37 (EXHIBIT 1179-66 - Roycraft to AG)  38  39 (EXHIBIT 1179-67a - Colonist article entitled  40 "The Skeena Trouble")  41  42 (EXHIBIT 1179-67b - AG to Roycraft)  43  44 (EXHIBIT 1179-69 - Colonist article entitled  45 "Nanaimo Assize Court")  46  47 (EXHIBIT 1179-70a - Anderson to AG) 21067  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (EXHIBIT 1179-70b - AG to Roycraft)  2  3 (EXHIBIT 1179-70c - Extract of letter, Washburn to  4 AG)  5  6 (EXHIBIT 1179-70c - Fitzstubbs to AG)  7  8 (EXHIBIT 1179-70d - Two letters, Ag to Fitzstubbs)  9  10 (EXHIBIT 1179-71 - Two letters, AG to Fitzstubbs)  11  12 (EXHIBIT 1179-72 - Fitzstubbs to AG)  13  14 (EXHIBIT 1179-74 - Loring to Moffat)  15  16 (EXHIBIT 1179-75a - Loring to Prov. Secty. with  17 letter of transmittal dated July 10, 1894)  18  19 (EXHIBIT 1179-75b - Tomlinson to Prov. Secty. with  20 burial permit related documents)  21  22 (EXHIBIT 1179-75c - Chief Clerk, Ind. Office to  23 Deputy Prov. Secty.)  24  25 (EXHIBIT 1179-76a - Deputy Prov. Secty. to  26 Helgesen)  27  28 (EXHIBIT 1179-76b - Kirby to McBride (telegram)  2 9 and related documents)  30  31 (EXHIBIT 1179-76c - Flewin to Deputy AG with  32 statement of Stewart Moore)  33  34 (EXHIBIT 1179-76d - Hussey to Deputy AG)  35  36 (EXHIBIT 1179-76e - Excerpts from "The Life and  37 Work of Father Coccola")  38  39 (EXHIBIT 1179-77a - Kirby to Hussey)  40  41 (EXHIBIT 1179-77b - Kirby to Hussey and related  42 documents)  43  44 (EXHIBITS 1179-78 - Colonist article entitled  45 "News from Skeena Forks")  46  47 (EXHIBIT 1179-79a - Field, J. to J. Robson) 2106?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  D.R. Williams  In chief by Mr  for Province)  Goldie  EXHIBIT 1179-79b - Loring to Moffat)  EXHIBIT 1179-79c - Field, Jonathan to Fitzstubbs)  EXHIBIT 1179-80 - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-81 - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-82 - Loring to Supt.-Gen.)  EXHIBIT 1179-83 - Loring to Supt.-Gen.z)  EXHIBIT 1179-84 - Chiefs of Hagwilghet to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-85 - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-86 - Colonist article entitled  Omineca Country")  EXHIBIT 1179-86 - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-87a - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-87b - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-88 - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-89 - Loring to Supt.-Gen.)  EXHIBIT 1179-90a - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-90b - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-91a - Vowell to Loring with letter  from Chief of Kitwangar)  EXHIBIT 1179-91b - Loring to Supt.-Gen.  extract))  EXHIBIT 1179-91b - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-91b - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-91c - Loring to Vowell)  EXHIBIT 1179-92 - Daily Province (Vancouver)  article entitled "Vowell Blames Joe Capilano") 21069  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  (EXHIBIT 1179-93 - Victoria Daily Times article  entitled "Indian Rights in B.C. will be  protected")  (EXHIBIT 1179-94 - Daily Province article entitled  "Joe Capilano in Limelight Today")  (EXHIBIT 1179-95a - Telegrams to and from Deane  and Hussey)  (EXHIBIT 1179-95b - Dean (Constable) to Hussey)  (EXHIBIT 1179-96a - Valleau to AG)  (EXHIBIT 1179-96b - Loring to Vowell)  (EXHIBIT 1179-96c - Deane to Bowser)  (EXHIBIT 1179-96d - Dean (Constable) to Hussey)  (EXHIBIT 1179-96d - Omineca Herald article  entitled "Kitwangar Indians Fined")  (EXHIBIT 1179-96e - Allison to AG with enclosure)  (EXHIBIT 1179-96f - Govt. Agent to AG with  enclosure)  (EXHIBIT   1179-9?  Loring to Vowell)  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Williams, we've gone over matters  which are dealt with in your report, tab -- pages 48  and 49, but at page 49 there's a reference to an  affair at Kispiox where the Kispiox Indians obstructed  a road construction crew at gunpoint, threatening to  drive all the white people out of the Kispiox valley  and seize the crew's equipment.  Now, that was quite a  well known -- quite a well known affair, and it was  met by an organized -- it was met by organizing a  raiding party of some 35 or 40 armed special  constables who carried out a dawn raid on the village?  Yes.  That I understand is dealt with, and we'll come back  to the intervening tabs in a minute.  Under tab 100 of  your volume 5 -- beginning at tab 100, I should say --  A   100a, is it?  A  Q 21070  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Yes, 100a, the -- the first document is telegram from  2 Allison to the premier of the province, it's in code,  3 the translation or the decoding is written in hand at  4 the bottom of the telegram?  5 A   Yes.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  And then 100b is —  7 THE COURT:  Oh, obstructing, is it?  8 MR. GOLDIE:  9 Q   Yes.  10 A  11 "Indians have obstructed government road work at  12 Kispiox and seized outfit."  13  14 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  15 THE COURT:  What comes next?  16 A   There are other telegrams of the same tab.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  18 Q   "Please wire instructions".  And then there is  19 McBride's telegram to Allison, again in code, then  20 Bowser -- to Bowser from Hussey, again in code, and is  21 the -- several telegrams there, followed in part by  22 coding.  23 A   Yes.  Well, the -- the decoding of the ill-trumpeted  24 cavalry telegrams, this is the introductory language  25 of it.  The decoding of that is found in -- in the  26 letter to the premier from Allison of November 8th,  27 1909, which is at tab 100c.  28 Q   Oh, yes.  And that is --  29 A   "If trouble caused from dispute over right of  30 Government to build road."  31 Q   Yes.  That's Allison's report, and that really deals  32 with what was -- what was done, does it not, the  33 swearing in of specials and --  34 A   Yes, it does.  35 Q   Yes.  36 A  And the other telegram, the infusible dollar one,  37 that's from Hussey to Bowser, which you referred to.  38 There is a decoding of that immediately following it,  39 following the telegram in a decoding which starts off:  40  41 "Indians display unrest situation will require  42 careful watching."  43  4 4 And so on.  45 Q   And there follows there the telegram exchanges between  46 Superintendent Hussey and Constable Maitland-Dougall?  47 A   Yes. 21071  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  3  4  ]  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  MR.  GOLDIE  32  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT:  37  MR.  GOLDIE  38  THE  COURT:  39  MR.  GOLDIE  40  THE  COURT:  41  42  MR.  GOLDIE  43  44  THE  COURT:  45  MR.  GOLDIE  46  Q  47  And that's tabs d, e, f, and g, and then h is Hussey  to the Attorney-General of November 18th, 1909,  enclosing copies of reports received from  Maitland-Dougall, and there --  Sorry, which tab are you at now?  lOlh?  lOlh?  Yes.  Yes.  And stating that he is -- it does not appear that  there's no necessity for this special constable sent  from Prince Rupert?  That's right.  In addition to the approximately 40  special constables which Maitland-Dougall had sworn in  to accompany him in his dawn raid in the village of  Kispiox, it was suggested as sort of a permanent  force.  Once that particular raid was -- a permanent  force, so to speak, another ten constables were to be  sent up from Prince Rupert.  They were in fact sent,  but they no sooner arrived and they were sent back  again.  And then under tab lOli is Maitland-Dougall report to  Hussey on the 18th of November, and that again gives  the details of the dawn raid on Kispiox?  And of the convictions which resulted from it.  Right.  I -- the remainder of that from 101k down to  lOlq, I think, is self-explanatory.  The sender and  the receiver are either Hussey to Maitland-Dougall or  Hussey to Maclean, Maclean being the --  He was the Deputy Attorney-General.  :  Deputy Attorney-General out of Victoria, yes, all  right.  Now, perhaps we could go back to the document  under 96g, which is the Maitland-Dougall to Hussey of  the 3rd of October, 1910.  And could you tell his  lordship what that refers to?  96g?  :  96g.  It's in volume 4, my lord.  Last document?  :  Last document, yes.  Well, I was told this was another dispute in 1910 in  Kitwanga.  :  Yes.  We identified it before we left -- before we  left that volume, my lord.  Yes, all right.  Is there anything you wish to add about which you said  about that? 21072  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   No, no.  There was obstruction -- this was almost  2 identical to the affair with Arthur Skelhorne, and as  3 a result of the obstruction of these two men three  4 Indians were charged with intimidation and  5 subsequently convicted.  6 Q   Now, there's a reference made to the two-man  7 commission in some of the material earlier in the --  8 in 1908 and 1909 stemming from Joe Capilano's visits?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Would you refer, please, to tab 99a and 99b and tell  11 us what they -- what those refer to?  12 A  Well, this is the commission which Laurier had said  13 would be sent, and they finally got to Hazelton, and  14 were there I think in July of 18 — of 1909.  The  15 letter -- the first letter in tab 99a is from Allison  16 to the Attorney-General enclosing a letter which he  17 had received from the natives at Kitwangak to  18 Kitwancool, and that letter from them was passing on a  19 telegram they had received from Sir Wilfred, and in  20 which the Prime Minister said:  21  22 "Government has authorized two commissioners to  23 proceed at once to British Columbia.  24 Commissioners now on their way and should reach  25 there in a week or so.  Meantime you should  26 advise Indians to keep within the law."  27  2 8 And then the people at Kitwangar and Kitwancool  2 9 conclude:  30  31 "Please forbid any white men to go to Kitwinkool as  32 the old people there don't know anything and may  33 make trouble against our wish."  34  35 Well, the commission did arrive, and it met at  36 Hazelton, and it was a report of the proceedings at --  37 in the Omineca Herald of July 17th, 1909 which is at  38 tab 99B of the extreme right-hand column, my lord,  39 under the heading "Indians Meet With Commissioners".  40 I see there were three of them -- actually there was a  41 chap named O'Connell from Nanaimo, but the  42 heavyweights, I think, were Stewart and Vowell.  43 Q   Now, we've dealt with the -- with the seizure of the  44 road equipment, and I would like you to turn, please,  45 to tab 102a, and this refers, does it not, to the  46 subsequent events dealing with the people who were  47 obstructed at Kitwancool, Messrs. Thompson and Ferman? 21073  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And Maitland-Dougall is being instructed by the  3 superintendent to look into the matter?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And the same thing under tab 102b?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   In which Hussey acknowledges advice from  8 Maitland-Dougall that informations have been laid  9 against Richard Douss, Arthur Wilson, and another,  10 whose name I cannot make out?  11 A  Arthur Wilson, Willizqu, W-I-L-L-I-Z-K-U, I take it.  12 Q   I-Z-Q-U.  The charge being intimidation.  103 is a  13 newspaper account referring to the same matter,  14 November 28th, 1913?  15 A   No.  That was a different --  16 Q   Sorry, another survey crew?  17 A   Yes.  At Kitwancool.  18 Q   In November 28th, 1913?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And then on December 5th, under tab -- under the pink  21 divider, my lord, is another excerpt from the Omineca  22 Herald, December 5th, 1913.  There's a reference to:  23  24 "Three Indians, the ring leaders in the threatened  25 trouble between the Kitwancool Indians and the  26 surveying party which has been in the Kitwancool  27 valley for some time, were brought to Hazelton on  28 Saturday night's train by Chief Owen and charged  29 before Magistrate Hoskins with molesting."  30  31 And makes reference to that.  And then 103b, this is a  32 rather poor --  33 A   Yes.  This, as you say, it's almost impossible to  34 read, but it refers to the matter of the three men who  35 were charged at Kitwancool in December, the letter's  36 early January of 1914.  37 Q   Then under 103C is again, as I understand it, another  38 excerpt from the recollections or reminiscences of Mr.  39 Parsons, the former Superintendent of the B.C. Police?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   The date April 9th, 1958 is an indication of the date  42 of his recollection, is it?  43 A   I think it must be the date of the transcription of  44 it.  I think Parsons must have been dead by 1958.  45 Q   Right.  And he states that he met a Mr. Richard Douss  46 on the trail, and this was in the spring of --  47 A   I may be wrong about that, sorry, about Parson's 21074  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 death, but anyway, this is the date on the extract of  2 the archives.  3 Q   Yes.  I was going to ask you, the source of this  4 document is what, the public archives?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And he tells about meeting Mr. Richard Douss on the  7 trail in the spring of 1912 and persuading him to come  8 to -- persuading him to meet with him.  And then at  9 page 29 he reports --  10 A   Yes.  He's out by -- he's out by a year, it should be  11 1913.  12 Q   Yes.  And then he refers to the advent or the  13 appearance of Chief Constable Walter Owen?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And he -- and he describes the meeting with him?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And that goes on for a number of pages.  18 A   Yes.  Owen, according to Parsons, handled the  19 situation very well, as one might have expected.  20 Q   Yes.  And under tab 104a is references to a statement  21 in your report about the visit of the  22 Governor-General?  23 A   Yes.  To Prince Rupert.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  You -- after discussing the events at Kispiox  25 in 1909 and the three subsequent episodes at  26 Kitwancool in 1910, 1913 and 1919 -- now, I don't know  27 that we've dealt with the 1919 one, but --  2 8    THE COURT:  Where are you reading that from Mr. Goldie?  29 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm reading from page 50 of his report, my lord.  30 THE COURT:  Oh, okay.  31 A   Yes.  There was a -- the 1919 one was another episode  32 at Kitwancool.  As I recall there's a list, and in the  33 material there's an account in the trial in the  34 newspaper in Smithers, the Interior News.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  36 Q   We will come to it, but at the bottom of page 50 you  37 say that:  38  39 "In September, 1912, the Governor-General, the Duke  40 of Connaught, visiting British Columbia on an  41 official visit, came to Prince Rupert."  42  43 A   Right.  44 Q   He was met by five representatives and he was  45 addressed, according to the newspaper, in the terms  46 that you have set out at page 51?  47 A   Yes. 21075  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   And the spokesman stated that they were  2 representatives of the Kitwangar, Hazelton,  3 Glenvowell, Kispiox, Kisgegas, Caldoax, and it's your  4 insertion in with a question mark, "Kuldo"?  5 A   Yes.  I take that to be Kuldo.  6 Q   Yes.  And so on.  And the documents that relate in  7 part to that are found at 104a through e?  8 A   Yes.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  I needn't go into that, my lord.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  Can we continue this tomorrow morning?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Is your lord -- as your lordship can see, I'm  12 very close to the end, and I anticipate I'll be  13 finished in the next 10 or 15 minutes.  14 THE COURT:  Do you want to -- is it convenient to stay and  15 finish?  16 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it's — I'm in my friend's hands.  I'm quite  17 happy to do that.  18 THE COURT:  Mr. Adams.  19 MR. ADAMS:  I'm happy to go on and let my friend finish his  20 direct examination today.  21 MR. RUSH:  My lord, just before my friend carries on, I may have  22 to excuse myself, but there is a matter of scheduling  23 I did want to raise at the end of the day, and it has  24 to do with next week.  There appears to be coming up a  25 potential conflict, and that has to do with the fact  26 that Mr. Grant will be counsel in respect of the  27 cross-examination of Dr. Robinson, and he is also  28 counsel in respect of an out-of-court  29 cross-examination of one of the lay witnesses, Mr.  30 Hokenshield(?).  Now, he cannot be in both places at  31 once, and depending on what my friends' intentions  32 are, there may not be an issue, but there may be, and  33 I simply want to raise it now.  Mr. Grant is available  34 either on Monday to begin with Dr. Robinson or on  35 Wednesday with respect to Dr. Robinson, and if it's my  36 friend's intentions not to start with Dr. Robinson on  37 the Monday, because as I think it will take, Mr. Adams  38 says, it will probably be two days of  39 cross-examination of Mr. Williams, if it's not their  40 intention to proceed on Monday with Dr. Robinson, and  41 it is, however, their intention to proceed with the  42 reading in of documents, and I can't see that there  43 would be any conflict.  I simply need some clarity at  44 this point what's intended in the schedule next week.  45 If, on the other hand, Dr. Robinson is going to come  4 6 ahead on Monday, then Mr. Grant will have the  47 difficulty on those two days. 21076  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GOLDIE:  I am perhaps at fault, my lord.  I thought this had  been settled.  I'm going to read in documents on  Monday and Tuesday.  MR. RUSH:  That's fine, then there's no problem.  THE COURT: And we can finish Mr. Williams this week, or should  we plan to sit if necessary?  MR. ADAMS:  My lord, it's possible we'll spill over.  I expect  to be two full days, and it is possible that we will  spill over either into Monday or Saturday.  From my  point of view, there's no reason it couldn't be Monday  morning, and slightly delay the document reading.  THE COURT:  Have you got two days of reading, Mr. Goldie?  MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I hope to avoid two days of reading, my lord,  but I have a lot of documents to tender, and there  are -- the next two documents I do want to deal with  in a little greater detail, and I'll deal with the  remainder.  I think we would be wise if we -- if we  kept Saturday.  THE COURT: Well, unless there is an overwhelming reason not to  do so, I'm strongly inclined to that view, Mr. Adams.  Is there --  MR. ADAMS:  No.  I have no problem being here Saturday, my lord,  if necessary.  THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Well, I think we should plan on  Saturday if necessary.  We can make that decision on  Friday.  I have to say that I have to adjourn a few  minutes early on Friday, I have a ceremony for my new  judges, and just after four o'clock, so I will have to  adjourn about ten to four on Friday afternoon.  So I  think we should plan for Saturday morning.  So all  right, let's go ahead and finish this if we can.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   My lord, I wasn't going to ask Mr. Williams to make  any reference to the documents which are under  document 104a to e.  I think they're all  self-explanatory and they all deal with the  Governor-General's visit and the representations that  were made at that time.  Is that correct, Mr.  Williams?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, I want to pick up some additional references that  Mr. Loring has made to the situation as it prevailed,  and the first one is under tab 105.  That is Mr.  Loring of June the 30th, 1911?  A   Yes.  Q   And the part that -- just tell his lordship the part  that you wish him to refer to without reading it, just 21077  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 give him the page and the paragraph?  2 A   It's the paragraph at the bottom of the first page, my  3 lord.  4 THE COURT:  I haven't found 105 yet.  Oh, here we are.  Bottom  5 of the first page?  6 A   Yes, my lord.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  Is this related to page 51 of your report?  8 MR. GOLDIE:  9 Q   I think it is just to -- let me -- well, it really is  10 to flesh out the statement that he earlier made that  11 these were the episodes that have been described were  12 the only ones of major confrontation, and the -- we're  13 now dealing with the pattern of the relationship,  14 which he makes reference to at the bottom of page 51.  15 Now, that statement is objected to, and I will not ask  16 the witness to make any observations, but just to have  17 him identify the documents that he has under these tab  18 numbers, and I think it really goes to virtually the  19 end of the volume, which you consider to be  20 significant in respect of the relationship of -- the  21 pattern of the relationship with the white man-Indian  22 in the claims area of virtually the Governor-General's  23 visit on.  Well, he's in September, 1912, and this  24 first letter is June 30th, 1911?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And you've given his lordship the reference under  27 that, 106?  28 A   Yes.  The second paragraph of the first page, my lord.  29 And the -- and the first sentence of the third  30 paragraph of the second page.  31 Q   Right.  And 107a is Mr. Loring's report to his  32 superior of February 28th, 1914?  33 A   Yes.  It's the second to last paragraph on page 2, my  34 lord.  35 Q   All right, thank you.  And 107b, Loring of February  36 28th, 1919?  37 A   Yes.  The last paragraph of the first page, and the  38 second paragraph of the second page.  39 Q   All right.  And then under 109a we're back to  40 Fitzgerald of October 21st, 1872.  And would you tell  41 his lordship to what reference you --  42 A   On the third page of the letter, my lord, the first  43 two -- the second and third paragraphs on page 3.  44 Q   All right.  And 109b — and this is all part of what  45 you relied upon in reference to -- reference to your  46 opinions on the pattern and the co-operation between  47 the two peoples? 2107?  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  ADAMS  23  THE  COURT  24  25  MR.  GOLDI  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GOLDI  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  Yes.  And then 109b is the Colonist of --  Yes.  Under the heading of "Return of the Otter".  It's the Colonist of November the 29th, 1872 under the  heading of "Return of the Otter", and the passage  about three-quarters of the way down which starts with  the words "Amongst the miners".  All right.  And on the next page?  And next page is the second column under the heading  "News from Omineca", again about three-quarters of the  way through the passage, the passage which starts "At  the forks there is", and so on.  The next is 109c, which is a newspaper account, but is  this from the Colonist?  Yes.  May 1874 and —  Yes.  Under the heading "Skeena River".  Which is it?  Yes.  That's under the heading "Skeena River".  The  third last paragraph, my lord.  Thank you.  109d.  My lord, I'm not able to read it.  I can't read it at all.  I don't think with the best  magnifying glass I would be able to read that.  :  Yes.  That is a very bad transcription.  I will  have one overnight, my lord.  Thank you.  The next letter of the 31st of August, 1874 has been  dealt with, and it's Mr. Brown's report to --  To the Provincial Secretary, I think it was.  Yes.  Anyway, what is the --  Yes.  Actually, we've dealt with that really, earlier.  All right.  109e, and this, I think, has also been  dealt with?  Yes.  109f, and this I think has been dealt with?  Yes.  And 110a is "Queek" again, is it not?  Yes.  That's been dealt with.  110b, I'm not sure that you  have referred to this before.  No.  This is a -- this is from the Colonist, January  of 1884.  It's a letter written by someone who  describes himself as Tsimshean, written from Port  Simpson, January 28th.  It's the last column on the  right, my lord, last complete column. 21079  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  It's "A Native Warning From The North"?  2 A   Yes.  Second paragraph, my lord.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  4 Q   All right.  Tab Ilia is Graham to Provincial Secretary  5 of the 27th of July, 1887.  And —  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   It's the -- what part of that letter is --  8 A  Well, yes.  This I think was referred to in an earlier  9 tab, but it's the -- on the first page, my lord, the  10 eighth line down "On leaving Hazelton", and over to  11 the end of the letter.  12 Q   Yes?  And the next document is the 27th of March,  13 1885, Mr. Duncan at Metlakatla from the Provincial  14 Secretary?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   This relates to the receipt of a document from Indians  17 having reference to the right to mine for gold?  18 A   Yes.  The discussion here is indeed about the right of  19 Indians to mine for gold, and the passages on that  20 subject are -- well, virtually the whole letter is  21 taken up with it, but perhaps particular reference to  22 the paragraph at the bottom of the first page, to the  23 top -- to the end of the paragraph at the top of the  24 second page.  25 Q   All right, thank you.  And then 112a is a letter to  26 the Provincial Secretary from what, a firm of  27 solicitors, complaining about Mr. Graham's conduct at  28 Lome Creek?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And there is attached to that or following that is Mr.  31 Graham's letter -- I'm sorry, Mr. Irvine's letter to  32 Mr. Theo Davie of June the 3rd, 1885 outlining the  33 nature of his complaint?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And it turns out that part of it is in relation to a  36 claim held by Indians?  37 A   Yes.  The -- the following tab relates to the same  3 8 subject, my lord.  39 Q   Right.  40 A  What is happening here, very briefly, is that a group  41 of white miners represented by Mr. Theo Davie, as he  42 then was, were complaining about Mr. Graham, and as  43 one reads from the documents about his alleged  44 partiality towards the Indians in the settling of  45 disputes amongst miners, and Mr. Graham's response to  46 that.  Indeed, there was a dispute in which the rights  47 of Indians were in conflict with the group of miners, 21080  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 white miners, and indeed Mr. Graham came down on the  2 side of the Indians.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Irving at this time was Attorney-General?  4 A   I beg your pardon?  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Irving at this time was what?  6 A   Irvine.  He's a civilian.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  8 Q   And Mr. Graham's report with respect to the whole  9 matter is under 112b?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And under 113a and 113b are reports of surveys as set  12 out in sessional -- or reports to the legislative  13 assembly for 1891, and --  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And under tab 114a the -- excuse me, my lord.  Would  16 you -- this is Loring of June the 30th, 19 -- can you  17 give us the --  18 A   June 30th, 1905 is the first tab, 114a, my lord.  19 Q   And the references that you wish us to take into  20 consideration are what, the --  21 A   These relate, my lord, to the Indian population at  22 Ootsa and Francois lakes.  23 Q   Oh, yes.  And —  24 A  And the paragraph in the first of the letter of June  25 30th, 1905 starting:  26  27 "No Indians are living on Ootsa and Francis Lake,  28 and of those belonging to Cheslata Lake" --  29  30 And so on, he speaks of the Indians' population there,  31 or lack of it.  32 Q   And the same thing with respect to 114b; is that  33 correct?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And under 114c is an application by one Billy Andrew  36 addressed to the Indian Department, Ottawa, and dated  37 February, apparently, 1915 -- February 1910?  38 A   I think it's 1910.  39 Q   Yes, thank you.  For land resulting from the fact that  40 settlement is taking place in the country west of  41 Francois Lake?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And at 114d is the response of the Secretary of the  44 Department of Indian Affairs in Ottawa?  45 A   Yes.  I -- yes, that's right.  46 Q   And the whole of that is relevant?  47 A   Yes. 21081  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, my lord, I tender Exhibit 1180, and with the  2 individual exhibits running from tab 98 to 114d, as  3 described in the index at the front of the volume.  4 And my lord, tomorrow morning I will deal with the  5 government correspondence in volume 4 and 5.  6  7 (EXHIBIT 1180-98- Loring to Vowell)  8  9 (EXHIBIT 1180-99a - Allison to AG with enclosure)  10  11 (EXHIBIT 1180-99b - Omineca Herald article  12 entitled "Indians Meet with Commissioner")  13  14 (EXHIBIT 1180-100a - Allison to McBride (telegram)  15 and related documents)  16  17 (EXHIBIT 1180-100b - Maitland-Dougall (Chief  18 Constable) to Hussey)  19  20 (EXHIBIT 1180-100c - Allison to McBride)  21  22 (EXHIBIT 1180-100d - Hussey to Ag (telegram))  23  24 (EXHIBIT 1180-100e - Bowser to Hussey (telegram))  25  26 (EXHIBIT 1180-101a - Maitland-Dougall to Hussey  27 (telegrams))  28  29 (EXHIBIT 1180-101b - Maitland-Dougall to Hussey  30 (telegrams))  31  32 (EXHIBIT 1180-101c - Hussey to Vickers  33 (telegrams))  34  35 (EXHIBIT 1180-101d - Hussey to Maitland-Dougall)  36  37 (EXHIBIT 1180-101e - Maitland-Dougall to Hussey  38 (telegrams))  39  40 (EXHIBIT 1180-101f - Maitland-Dougall to Hussey  41 (telegrams))  42  43 (EXHIBIT 1180-101g - Maitland-Dougall to Hussey  44 (telegrams))  45  46 (EXHIBIT 1180-101h - Hussey to Bowser)  47 21082  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (EXHIBIT 1180-lOli - Maitland-Dougall to Hussey)  2  3 (EXHIBIT 1180-lOlj - Hussey to Maclean)  4  5 (EXHIBIT 1180-lOlk - Hussey to Maitland-Dougall)  6  7 (EXHIBIT 1180-1011 - Maitland-Dougall to Hussey  8 (telegrams))  9  10 (EXHIBIT 1180-101m - Hussey to Maclean)  11  12 (EXHIBIT 1180-101n - Hussey to Maclean)  13  14 (EXHIBIT 1180-101o - Hussey to Maitland-Dougall)  15  16 (EXHIBIT 1180-lOlp - Hussey to Maitland-Dougall)  17  18 (EXHIBIT 1180-lOlq - Hussey to Maitland-Dougall)  19  20 (EXHIBIT 1180-102a - Hussey to Maitland-Dougall)  21  22 (EXHIBIT 1180-102b - Hussey to Maitland-Dougall)  23  24 (EXHIBIT 1180-103a - Omineca Herald article  25 entitled "Bad Indians are brought to jail")  26  27 (EXHIBIT 1180-103b - Campbell to Bowser)  28  29 (EXHIBIT 1180-103c - Extracts from T.W.S. Parsons'  30 Journal)  31  32 (EXHIBIT 1180-104a - Williams to Oliver)  33  34 (EXHIBIT 1180-104b - Williams to Oliver)  35  36 (EXHIBIT 1180-104c - Oliver to Williams)  37  38 (EXHIBIT 1180-104d - Williams to Oliver)  39  40 (EXHIBIT 1180-104e - Prince Rupert Daily News  41 article entitled "Princess Patricia receives  42 moccasins from the Indians"  43  44 (EXHIBIT 1180-105 - Loring to DIA)  45  46 (EXHIBIT 1180-106 - Loring to DIA)  47 21083  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (EXHIBIT 1180-107a - Loring to DIA)  2  3 (EXHIBIT 1180-107b - Loring to DIA)  4  5 (EXHIBIT 1180-109a - Fitzgerald to Robertson  6 (Prov. Secty.))  7  8 (EXHIBIT 1180-109b - Colonist article entitled  9 "Return of the Otter")  10  11 (EXHIBIT 1180-109c - Colonist article entitled  12 "Skeena River")  13  14 (EXHIBIT 1180-109d - Brown to Prov. Secty.)  15  16 (EXHIBIT 1180-109e - Constable Brown's Report)  17  18 (EXHIBIT 1180-109f - Woodcock to Prov. Secretary)  19  20 (EXHIBIT 1180-110a - Hazelton Queek)  21  22 (EXHIBIT 1180-110b - Colonist article re  23 Tsimpshean letter)  24  25 (EXHIBIT 1180-llla - Graham to Provincial  26 Secretary)  27  28 (EXHIBIT 1180-lllb - Prov. Secty. to Duncan)  29  30 (EXHIBIT 1180-112a - Davie and Wilson to Prov.  31 Secty. with enclosure)  32  33 (EXHIBIT 1180-112b - Graham to Prov. Secty.)  34  35 (EXHIBIT 1180-113a - Poudrier Reports)  36  37 (EXHIBIT 1180-113b - Gauvreau Reports)  38  39 (EXHIBIT 1180-114a - Loring to Vowell)  40  41 (EXHIBIT 1180-114b - Loring to Vowell)  42  43 (EXHIBIT 1180-114c - Andrew, Billy to DIA)  44  45 (EXHIBIT 1180-114d - DIA to Billy Andrew)  46  47    THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  We'll adjourn then until ten 21084  D.R. Williams (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 o'clock.  Thank you.  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court is adjourned until  3 ten o'clock tomorrow morning.  4  5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:30)  6  7 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  8 a true and accurate transcript of the  9 proceedings herein transcribed to the  10 best of my skill and ability  11  12  13  14  15 Graham D. Parker  16 Official Reporter  17 United Reporting Service Ltd.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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