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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-07-18] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jul 18, 1989

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 18871  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  VANCOUVER, B.C.  July 18, 1989  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia, this 18th day of July, 1989.  In the matter  of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my  lord.  THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  MR. WILLMS:  Thank you, my lord.  We call as our next witness,  Mr. Cyril Shelford.  CYRIL MORLEY SHELFORD, a witness  herein called on behalf of the  Provincial defendant, having been  duly sworn, testified as follows:  REGISTRAR:  Would you state your full name and spell your  last name, please?  A   Yes.  Cyril Morley Shelford, S-H-E-L-F-O-R-D.  REGISTRAR:  Thank you, sir.  Please be seated.  WILLMS:  Q   Mr. Shelford, you were born in 1921?  A   That's right.  Q   And I just want to quickly go through the period from  then until now to describe where you lived and some of  the things that you've done.  Between 1921 and 1939  you lived, farmed and trapped around Ootsa Lake in  British Columbia?  A   Yes.  The west end of Ootsa Lake.  Q   Between 1939 and 1945 you were with the Canadian army  in Europe?  A   Yes.  I joined in September of '39 and came out in  November of '45.  Q   And during that period you were involved in fighting  in Italy, France and Holland?  A   Yes.  I landed the first day in Sicily, and the first  day in Italy and second day in France.  Q   When you returned to Canada in 1945, between 1945 and  1952, you lived, farmed, logged, trapped and guided  around Ootsa Lake?  A   Yes, around -- I lived on the Shelford Ranch.  Q   Between 1952 and 1972 you were the member of the  legislative assembly for the Omineca riding for the  Province of British Columbia?  A   Yes.  Q   And during that period, between 1968 and 1972 you were  the Minister of Agriculture? 372  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  THE  COURT:  15  MR.  WILLMS  16  17  THE  COURT:  18  MR.  WILLMS  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  WILLMS  34  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT:  39  MR.  WILLMS  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  MR.  WILLMS  That's right.  In 1972 I take it you were defeated as the MLA for  Omineca and you then moved to Terrace between 1972 and  1975?  Yes.  I moved to Terrace and ran the Northwest Loggers  Association out of Terrace.  And between 1975 and 1979 you were the member of the  legislative assembly for the riding of Skeena in the  Province of British Columbia?  Yes.  And in that period of time, between 1978 and 1979, you  were the Minister of Agriculture?  Yes.  For quite a short time.  What were the years again, please?  :  '78 and '9 for the Ministry of Agriculture, my  lord.  Thank you.  '75 to '79 as an MLA for Skeena.  I take it you  suffered the misfortune of defeat again in 1979?  That's right.  Happens to all of us.  And from 1979 on you've been a consultant and you've  resided part time -- part of your time in Victoria,  British Columbia and part of your time on the north  shore of Francois Lake?  That's right.  Now, going back to the beginning, where were you born?  I was born in a little hospital at Southbank on the  south shore of Francois Lake.  A half a mile above the  ferry landing there was a little tiny hospital, it had  three beds, and the only people that could use them  was ladies having their babies.  :  And I wonder if you could just take -- I have a  blue pen here, and we've been marking locations on  Exhibit 55C.  I wonder if you could put with a number  "1" with a circle around it on the Francois Lake, as  close as you can, the place where you were born.  What colour is he using?  He's using blue, my lord.  And if you can put a "1"  and a circle around the "1", Mr. Shelford, where you  were born.  Thank you.  And at the time your  parents -- where were your parents living?  My parents were living at west of Wistaria, two miles  back from Ootsa Lake.  It was 45 miles by sleigh.  My  mother came out to the hospital.  :  All right.  And I suppose I should have got you to 18873  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  COURT  A  WILLMS:  Q   A  do this when you were there.  If you could mark with a  "2" in blue pen with a circle around it as close as  you can the location of the family farm near Ootsa  Lake?  Is it Wistaria?  Yes.  A "2"?  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  GRANT:  A  GRANT:  WILLMS  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  THE  COURT  GRANT  COURT  MR. GRANT  2" please, yes.  And was there a reference already  on the map that you --  Yeah, 690 is the lot number, west half of 690.  Thank you.  Now, can you describe when and under what  conditions you understand your father came to the  Ootsa Lake area?  Yes.  Objection, my lord.  It was discussed many times --  Just a moment.  You have to wait, Mr. Shelford, my friend has an  obj ection.  Yes.  To this I would object, that this is hearsay.  Hearsay is as to when he was born too, isn't it?  It was hearsay as to when he was born.  I gave my  friend some latitude.  It was hearsay as to the  three-room hospital which the witness -- or the  three-bed hospital, which the witness can't remember.  I think now we're expanding hearsay well before the  birth of this witness.  I'm surprised, Mr. Grant, that you would make an  objection in view of the evidence that your clients  were led to give many many instances, but your  objection is a sound one.  If you stand on it I must  rule.  Well, the question, my lord, is that of course there  was a question of reputation, community reputation.  Now --  Your evidence --  My friend --  Mr. Grant, your evidence went far beyond that in  many many respects.  Each of your clients, practically  each of your clients was asked where he was born, what  his parents did, all those things, which was all  hearsay in many respects, but if you're making the  objection, I think it's sound in law, I will have to  uphold it.  I'm not -- I mean if my friend is -- this is a large  scope of his evidence.  I mean if it's just a question 18874  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. WILLMS  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  of his father coming in and things like that, that's  one thing, but I'm not sure how far my friend is going  on this.  I don't either, Mr. Grant, but you've made an  objection, and if you're maintaining the objection I  will uphold it.  Thank you, my Lord.  Are you?  Yes.  All right.  I'll come at it from a different way, and my friend  may want to try to object again.  Now, Mr. Shelford,  you co-authored a book with your Uncle Arthur?  Yes.  And that book is entitled "We Pioneered"?  Yes.  It was written by my uncle and it was never  published, but the manuscript was given to the schools  and local people.  So many people wanted to read all  about how they came into the country, what they did  when they got there, that I was persuaded to write a  41-page lead into his story.  And his story is based  on his diary, which he kept all of his life.  All right.  And so part of "We Pioneered" you wrote  and part was written by your uncle?  Yes.  Forty-one pages I believe is my part, and the  rest is completely my uncle's.  And your uncle wrote his part from a diary that he  kept?  Yes.  And you've seen that diary?  Yes.  Now, did any of your other family members, to your  knowledge, your father or your mother, keep a diary?  No, they didn't.  But how did you come to learn about your family  history?  Of course families were very close tied in those days.  There was no television, and so you sat around the  kitchen table and discussed everything from politics  to how the family got in.  Like my dad had a very  interesting life in Alaska, and so as kids naturally  we wanted to know what it was like in Alaska and what  it was like, how he came into British Columbia, so he  came up the river by paddle steamer as far as Hazelton  and walked into Ootsa Lake.  Now, and did you discuss those -- the days of your 18875  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 father and your uncle coming into British Columbia  2 with both of them from time to time?  3 A  Many many times.  4 Q   All right.  And are those -- is that period of time  5 also something that is covered in the part that your  6 uncle wrote in "We Pioneered"?  7 A   Yes, all of it.  8 Q   And as you said, that was based on a diary that your  9 uncle kept?  10 A   Yes.  11 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, with respect to the question that I asked  12 and that my friend had objected to, I want to first  13 note that here there was a diary, and that it is  14 reflected in a book that was co-written by this  15 witness, so there is a documentary basis for the  16 evidence that the witness is giving, but secondly, and  17 perhaps more importantly, as your lordship pointed out  18 to my friend, the transcript of the evidence led by  19 the plaintiffs is replete with stories of where  20 grandfathers and great grandfathers came from, what  21 they did.  For example, in the evidence of Alfred  22 Mitchell, page 3230 to 3231 he described who cut a  23 trail to Decker Lake, something he had no personal  24 knowledge of at all, he was just told by his  25 grandfather who cut the trail to Decker Lake.  Later  26 on in the transcript, at page 3247, there's a  27 description of how fire was made before the match was  28 introduced, all of it was explained.  All of it, as we  29 understand, my lord, came in under the rubric of proof  30 of oral history.  There's no written record, so  31 therefore without that proof of the oral history which  32 met necessity and trustworthiness, that evidence came  33 in, and it's my submission it would be most unfair if  34 this defendant could not in certain circumstances, and  35 in my submission this is a clear one, lead similar  36 evidence that as a result of necessity, because maybe  37 I should ask this --  38 THE COURT:  What issue does it go to?  39 MR. WILLMS:  The issue that it goes to is -- the issue that was  40 raised by the plaintiffs.  When were the plaintiffs in  41 the area, what did they do when they were in the area,  42 did they cut trails, did they shoot moose, did they  43 hunt beaver, did they trap, did they pick berries,  44 where did they pick berries, where did they live,  45 where are their territories, how far do the trapping  46 rights go, what was the life-style like.  All of this  47 evidence is in, much of the evidence is based on 376  Submissions  1 hearsay, my lord, and in my submission the -- unless  2 there is a ruling resulting from my friend's  3 submission that goes to the plaintiffs' evidence as  4 well, and your lordship may recall that the oral  5 histories went in subject to objection, but unless we  6 can meet that evidence, unless we have a ruling that  7 they're inadmissible based on, I suppose, my friend's  8 concession now that they're all hearsay --  9 MR. GRANT:  I didn't concede that.  10 MR. WILLMS:  I thought that was his submission.  If we're not  11 allowed to meet all of that hearsay evidence which was  12 heard subject to objection, then we're prejudiced in  13 the defence of this lawsuit.  14 THE COURT:  Well, the evidence that your friend led — your  15 friends led had to meet the tests of necessity and  16 trustworthiness, and for the purpose of admissibility  17 at least met those tests.  What is the necessity for  18 the evidence that you now are seeking to lead?  The  19 plaintiffs needed that evidence for part of their  20 claim for aboriginal title.  What is the necessity  21 that you face?  I don't have any problem at the  22 moment, subject to hearing your friend on the question  23 of trustworthiness, but what is the necessity?  24 MR. WILLMS:  Well, the necessity is that Mr. Shelford's father  25 and his uncle are dead.  26 THE COURT:  But why is the evidence necessary?  27 MR. WILLMS:  Well, with all due respect, my lord, it's whether  28 it's relevant or not.  And we say the necessity comes  29 in as to is there any other way we can get this  30 evidence in, and it's my submission, based on all of  31 the evidence that we've heard in this trial, and a  32 review of that evidence -- we've reviewed that  33 evidence, and in our submission this evidence is  34 relevant.  And we would like to lead it to meet the  35 evidence, and I can tell your lordship we do not  36 intend to lead a great deal of evidence similar to the  37 evidence led by the plaintiffs in this case, but we  38 would like to lead evidence that we say is relevant to  39 issues raised in the plaintiffs' case, and we say that  40 it's relevant and we would like to lead it.  41 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Mr. Macaulay.  42 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, the — I understand from what my friend  43 has said that there is a diary kept by the witness'  44 late uncle.  I assume that for the most part that  45 diary will qualify as a historical document, and as  46 it's 30 years or more old, it's been circulated, in  47 fact it's been the basis of publication. 377  Submissions  1 THE COURT:  What's its relevance?  2 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, the question -- I was addressing the question  3 of admissibility.  Well, the gravamen of the  4 plaintiffs' claim is from time immemorial and  5 continuously since then the plaintiffs have occupied  6 and have used these territories, including the ones  7 around Ootsa Lake, for the fishing, hunting, trapping  8 and berry picking.  That was the foundation of their  9 ancient economy.  It's the continuity asserted by the  10 plaintiffs, and quite rightly asserted by the  11 plaintiffs, because it's necessary to their case that  12 it's an issue before your lordship.  Any evidence that  13 goes to that continuity to the use and occupation of  14 the land must necessarily be relevant because of the  15 very nature of the plaintiff's claim, not -- and of  16 course in the way the claim was advanced.  A lot of  17 that evidence your lordship hasn't heard, because it  18 was -- it was set out in rather formal terms in what  19 we call territorial affidavits, and your lordship  20 hasn't heard that viva voce evidence, and all these  21 territories were covered in those affidavits, in which  22 the deponent asserted, swore that he and his ancestors  23 trapped, fished, hunted and so on in the -- in the  24 area in question.  We're dealing with the territories,  25 as I understand it, with essentially of Goohlaht and  26 Samooh, maybe Knedebeas, and we have cross-examined on  27 that, the Provincial defendants and ourselves.  I must  28 say, I have to agree with my friend, Mr. Willms, that  29 this evidence goes to the nub of the plaintiffs' case.  30 THE COURT:  But the plaintiffs aren't claiming in this action  31 alienated or privately owned land.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, I don't think this is evidence — I don't  33 know the evidence is going to be that.  34 THE COURT:  I don't either.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  I assume though that it's going to be that  36 concerning a very large area of non-alienated land,  37 and that's particularly the land that's west of  38 Noralee and Wistaria.  I noticed on the map, and I  39 just noticed this this morning, that there's an area  40 there called the Shelford Hills.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 MR. MACAULAY:  I don't see any sign of surveys or subdivided  43 land there, and I'm assuming -- I have no idea, no --  44 I have not been told what his evidence is, but I'm  45 assuming it's going to be covering that kind of -- I  46 didn't understand either that the plaintiffs were not  47 claiming Crown granted land, but I may have missed 1887?  Submissions  1 something, or making claims in regard to Crown granted  2 land.  3 THE COURT:  Well, I may be wrong, but I thought the plaintiffs  4 were not seeking in this action clear title.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm sure my friends Mr. Grant and Mr. Rush can  6 clarify that.  7 THE COURT:  They will have to, because that's my understanding.  8 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  They may not be claiming it back, but they're —  10 THE COURT:  Well, they're claiming damages in lieu of it, but  11 I'm not hearing that issue.  Well, all right.  Thank  12 you, Mr. Macaulay.  Mr. Grant.  13 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord, yes.  First of all, to assist  14 Mr. Macaulay, paragraph 79 of the statement of claim  15 clearly sets out that the plaintiffs confirm ownership  16 in fee simple of lands which have been transferred to  17 third parties and were held in fee simple by third  18 parties as of October 23rd, 1984 and make no claim to  19 those lands except for those claims for damages except  20 against the defendant Province, alienation of those.  21 Now, my lord, it's -- the concern that I have here is  22 that this suggests -- I understood that Mr. Shelford,  23 who is a person that's lived there a long time, is  24 going to talk about what happened after he was born  25 and grew up there.  The issue here is that the  26 plaintiffs did not -- we -- that the plaintiffs did  27 lead evidence, that of the reputation of who was on  28 these particular territories in earlier times, and  29 they led that evidence as part of the oral history.  30 The plaintiffs did lead some evidence of specific  31 things that people saw and were taught about, that is  32 the trails, for example.  But the plaintiffs did not,  33 in my submission, lead a large body of evidence of the  34 use of these specific areas, the areas around Ootsa  35 Lake, of the uses of these areas by earlier  36 grandfathers.  That is the detail which I am concerned  37 is going to be presented.  Now, my friend has laid  38 groundwork through what he says is a diary.  I say he  39 has mischaracterized the book, and I think the witness  40 properly characterized it.  This book is not  41 co-authored, this book is in two parts, one part by  42 the witness and one part by his uncle, and I presume  43 from my understanding the witness edited it after his  44 uncle passed on.  The diary, which Mr. Macaulay  45 suggests is the foundation, has not to this moment  46 been disclosed to the plaintiffs, and it has not been  47 listed, to my knowledge, and I stand to be corrected 379  Submissions  1 if I'm wrong in that, but I reviewed it and found that  2 it was not disclosed, and I was unaware -- I assumed  3 the diary had long since disappeared.  It may not be  4 the case.  But what I submit, my lord, is that this is  5 an opening up of the door, very broadly, and it's an  6 assumption here.  There's an assumption that the oral  7 history principle and rules that you will apply should  8 apply on this -- in the non-Indian community where  9 this witness describes that there is a written record,  10 and of course only last week your lordship dealt with  11 and made a ruling about historical documents.  We  12 don't have a diary that's from a public archive here,  13 we have something that is kept in a drawer or  14 something, and I don't even know if it exists.  It  15 certainly has never been disclosed, and I submit that  16 if this is -- this evidence is allowed this is going  17 to expand the type of evidence way beyond what even in  18 the size of this trial what everybody has been  19 considering to date, because my friend did a  20 categorization of a listing of an entire social  21 organization, and there is a way for my friend to deal  22 with that.  There's a way for him to deal with that.  23 He can call, for example, a historian, and they have a  24 historian expert who's reviewed documents and can  25 comment on the whole purview and give opinions of the  26 documents.  They can call an anthropologist, and  27 that's what the plaintiffs did, to give opinion  28 evidence in that field.  If we are going to be faced  29 with lay witnesses who are going to say "Well, all  30 these things happened long before, you know, berries  31 were picked here and they weren't picked there and  32 fishing was there and it wasn't there", and how can --  33 my difficulty, my lord, is how can I effectively  34 cross-examine this witness on that, because the  35 witness has no personal knowledge except what he is  36 told.  I may be able to say "Well, are you sure your  37 dad said that", but that doesn't carry us very far.  38 That is the reason this evidence should not be  39 admitted.  The issue was quite different from what my  40 friends faced, because we set out that there was a  41 reputation in the community and it was widely known  42 and they had witness after witness that they could  43 challenge, and they did challenge those propositions  44 with "you didn't pick berries on the mountain or you  45 didn't do that".  He could go to those different  46 people and say "You were never told about this  47 territory", so they could test the reputation.  But 18880  Submissions  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  we're faced here with a person, the son of a settler,  who is going to talk about all of these events before  his time.  And there is a written record of these  things, there is correspondence which you've heard, I  understand there's many volumes, for example, that  have been put in about this era from our side, and I  presume our friends are going to put them in about  what was going on, correspondence from his father.  One of the things I have requested is the  pre-emptions.  There is a written record of what  happened at that time, and I -- that is at least in  the correspondence and in the archival material.  And  I have relied on the archival material which I could  access, and of course if requested by my friend to  produce those I couldn't, but I submit I am in a  situation where -- and I'm -- I submit that my friend  has not answered your question of necessity.  Where  does it take you if this witness says "My father told  me that there were Indian people there and they hunted  beaver but they didn't hunt, trap marten", or  something.  I don't know what he's going to say, but  where does that leave you, what does it help you with  ultimately, because the --  :  You don't think that he should be allowed to say  what his father told you as to when he arrived, and  that part of it?  :  Oh, yes.  And I think that's where I -- I think that  you've heard some evidence to that from the earlier  witnesses possibly, and that -- that's why I was  endeavouring to be careful and I did not object, for  example, to the birth, and when his father told him he  arrived on this date.  This is something that is a  little easier.  :  Well, at the moment all the witness has been asked  is "When did your father arrive" and -- that's as far  as we got with it.  :  That was not my recollection of the question, my  lord.  That is -- my understanding from my -- what my  friend is arguing, the question goes to his  observations and the social organization and all of  those things.  :  I haven't heard anything about that.  :  Well, if my friend is going to limit himself to  finding out when his father said he arrived in the  territory, I would -- on that question alone I would  not maintain this objection.  My recollection of his  question was that it was much broader than that, and Submissions  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  he's -- you know, he's introduced now his father was  very interested in Alaska, and I understand that the  witness, of course, has already said in -- volunteered  about his father, how he got here, came up to Ootsa  Lake and things, and came up by paddle steamer to  Ootsa Lake, but I submit if my friend is going to ask  "Well, when did your father tell you he came", that is  something that's not worth an argument over.  It's  like when you were born and where you were born, and  may be objectionable, but it's not a big issue.  But I  understand from what my friend is saying that he's  going to get into the diaries of Uncle Arthur and he's  going to get into all of the observations over the  course of a number of years.  And that's what I object  to, because I cannot properly cross-examine this  witness on that.  What about evidence of this kind in rebuttal to the  evidence of the plaintiffs' witnesses, who have  attempted to establish occupation and possession and  jurisdiction over these territories from time  immemorial up to and including the present time.  Why  can't the defendants say well, at least from a certain  time, from a certain time to a certain time, whatever  occupation, place was not exclusive because there is a  reputation in the community in which the plaintiff is  a member that others used the territory from certain  dates.  And according to this witness, who was born in 1921,  he's going to be able to canvass that for a large  period of time.  Come on, what about from an earlier time?  I submit that there -- maybe there are witnesses who  can raise that, who can speak to that.  What about declarations made by deceased persons.  Well —  Such as his father and his uncle.  Well, the -- just referring to the Phipson test, of  course death is one requirement and necessity, ancient  facts being generally incapable of direct proof, and  we're not talking here -- I mean I submit that there  are other ways to prove this, and my friends have  endeavoured to do it through an enormous body of  documents, the guarantee of truth afforded by public  nature of the rights.  Well, I've requested, for  example, the pre-emption documents of his father, and  my friend has not disclosed those to me or provided me  with the necessary information to get them to date, Submissions  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  but —  :  You see, the problem with the documents is  they're -- they've got -- they've been there for X  number of years, before he even applied for  pre-emption rights.  What about that earlier period?  :  Well, suffice to say from my understanding, I don't  think that that's a problem, but I don't think my  friend can argue that.  And then the public nature of  the rights, which tend to preclude individual bias  unless in danger of misstatements by exposing them to  constant contradiction, this is around the family  dinner table.  This is a group of settlers with a  specific interest, and of course, not being at all  critical of course of the witness or his family, but  it's not a public statement, it's not what they have,  it's no parallel to the situation that the plaintiffs  had where these statements were made in public, and if  there was a conflict there were opposing chiefs to  raise that contradiction, and you've heard evidence of  those kinds of things.  You've heard -- evidence has  been led that there's contradictions and others speak  out and examples of that.  And -- but that's not what  we have here.  We have -- we have -- all of which  would be very interesting but I submit is neither  necessary -- is not necessary and therefore is not  admissible.  Now, if my friends had intended to do  this, my lord, why did they not produce the diary of  the uncle to me long before now, or if at all.  This  is why I'm a bit surprised.  I concede that there's a  published book, but it's -- clearly it's not a  transcription of the diary from -- the witness may be  able to clarify that, but it's not a transcription of  a diary from my reading, it's edited and everything  else, and I think it's late in the day for my friends  to now approach this when they have not even disclosed  that.  And that diary is not something that is  accessible to the plaintiffs.  I submit that if my  friends wish to prove this in the presence of his  father there's an easy way to do it, through the  pre-emption documents.  If they're only asking him  when did your father -- when did he tell you he came  in, I agree that question goes to something like the  date of birth, but when he starts to talk about -- and  from 1921, we're not talking a large number of years  difference here, from 1921 on, or at least when he  remembers things, I'm sure this witness has lots of  experiences that you're going to hear about.  I submit 18883  Submissions  Order  1 my friends have other ways of proving it, and to use a  2 private diary they haven't disclosed is not the way to  3 do it.  4 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Mr. Willms.  5 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, first of all on the diary, I didn't know  6 that the diary existed until yesterday.  I didn't know  7 that that was the basis for Mr. Arthur Shelford's  8 recollections, which are in a published book which my  9 friends have read.  I didn't think it would be a big  10 deal.  All I wanted to lead out of this witness was  11 essentially what's in the book, what did his uncle say  12 about what they did, when did they get there, did they  13 build a cabin, then what did they do, when did they  14 pre-empt, nothing -- nothing that comes close to some  15 of the evidence that the plaintiffs have led under the  16 rubric of an exception to the hearsay rule.  But it's  17 still my submission, whether based on the diary or  18 whether based on something that his uncle or his  19 father told him, that the issue of necessity doesn't  20 go to whether -- necessity and relevance are  21 different.  In respect of necessity, his parent -- his  22 father can't give the evidence, his uncle can't give  23 the evidence, they're dead.  That's necessity.  24 Relevance is a different issue, and I've already  25 submitted to your lordship that in light of all the  26 evidence that we've reviewed given by the plaintiffs'  27 witnesses, much of it based on hearsay, it is our view  28 that this evidence is relevant.  It's not lengthy, but  29 it's our view that it's relevant, and we would like to  30 lead it.  31 THE COURT:  I'm faced with what appears to me to be a possible  32 unfairness, but I do not think that declarations of  33 this kind, even by deceased persons, are admissible  34 under the exception to the hearsay rule under which  35 the plaintiffs operated.  I think that's unfair, and  36 and I think that maybe you -- it would be better to  37 hear the evidence, but I'm not presently persuaded  38 that -- that the criteria for the test of  39 admissibility had to be satisfied inasmuch there is no  40 claim sought to be established in which these  41 declarations were made.  They're not declarations of a  42 declaration of title, or there's no need or necessity  43 to prove such a reputation, and they are not  44 declarations of either a private right or a public  45 right that come within the exception.  I am not at the  46 moment dealing with the admissibility of the  47 historical material in the book authored by Mr. 18884  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Shelford's uncle, I think that's a separate matter  2 that counsel may wish to pursue further.  And I do not  3 think that it can be done through this witness.  4 Counsel have indicated they will not object to hearsay  5 establishing in the opinion of the witness when his  6 father, and I think that would extend to his family,  7 came to the area, but is presently advised he didn't  8 want anything to go beyond that.  9 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, I would like to put the questions on  10 the record, and if my friend wants to object to  11 them --  12 THE COURT:  You don't have to, surely not.  That's an archaic  13 practice.  I've ruled, and I thought if there's  14 something that wouldn't fit within the rule I would  15 deal with it, but surely we've got past the stage  16 where you can put questions in order to preserve a  17 right to object.  The ruling is clear -- at least it  18 may not be clear, but it's recorded, and if I'm wrong  19 you will have your remedies.  That will not depend  20 upon your form of putting the questions I've already  21 ruled again admissible.  22 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I want to put a couple of questions on the  23 documentary source of the information on the record.  24 THE COURT:  Well, I will have to deal with them as you put the  25 questions then.  26 MR. WILLMS:  27 Q   Thank you, my lord.  For the period of time between  2 8 the time that your father came to the area and the  29 time that you had your first recollection, where did  30 you obtain your understanding of what went on between  31 that -- those two periods?  32 A  Well, I think mostly from my dad and my uncle, but  33 also neighbours around the community, because in a  34 small community like Wistaria, everyone got together  35 for dances, picnics, et cetera, whether they be  36 natives or whites, and they all told the stories of  37 how they came into the country, whether they came from  38 Bella Coola or they came from Caribou or they came in  39 from Hazelton, so it's very well known, and quite a  40 number of these people are -- the C.B.C. interviewed  41 and their tapes are in the archives in Victoria, my  42 uncle and Cliff Harrison and quite a number of others,  43 and they all tell about the time they came in.  44 There's a book written on Burns Lake that gives the  45 dates of when different people come in, how they come  46 in, and all of this.  47 Q   All right.  You talked about picnics attended by 18885  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 native people too.  Can you remember what native  2 people would be at these picnics?  3 A   You know, there's very few, of course, in the Ootsa  4 Lake area.  Of course our good friend Jimmy Andrew,  5 who was sort of a member of the family because there  6 wasn't any other white families close by, and he used  7 to come to our place very regularly and we used to  8 visit his place regularly.  9 THE COURT:  Mr. Shelford, I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand  10 you.  Did you say there were very few native or very  11 few white families?  12 A   It was just two families of natives that were in  13 direct contact with our family.  It was on the west  14 end of the Ootsa Lake area.  He was Jimmy Andrew on  15 the west end of Ootsa Lake, north side of the west  16 end, and Mathew Sam over on Francois Lake on the west  17 end, and the pack trail came in from Houston, so it  18 went right across -- Jim -- Mathew Sam's area over to  19 our ranch on Ootsa Lake.  20 Q   Just pausing there, so it was from what your parents  21 had told you, what your uncle had told you what was a  22 topic of discussion of community picnics, which  23 included Jimmy Andrew.  Would you include your uncle's  24 diary as well in that?  25 A   Yes.  I would include the diary, because quite often  26 the family went back to uncle's diary to prove what  27 happened on a certain date.  2 8 Q   All right.  29 A  Whether it was cutting house logs or building fences  30 or whatever it happened to be.  It was very useful to  31 the family.  32 Q   All right.  33 A   I wish I had have kept one.  34 Q   All right.  But that is the source of your knowledge  35 as to what happened, and I take it I can ask this  36 question because my friend said it was  37 unobjectionable, your father came in in 1912?  38 A   That's right.  39 Q   All right.  So between 1912 and your first  40 recollection of seeing things, that is the source of  41 your information?  42 A   That's right.  43 Q   And included within that information is information  44 about what your -- what your family ate during that  45 period?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Included with that information is -- 18886  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 A   Of course what our family ate didn't change that much  2 between --  3 Q   Well, you can't -- sorry, you can't answer that,  4 that's going backwards.  5 A   Okay.  6 Q   And my friend's objected to that.  Does it also  7 include where your uncle and your father trapped  8 before your first recollection?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   All right.  Does it also include what your uncle and  11 your father hunted before your first recollection?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Does that source of information also cover what  14 your -- whether or not there were other sources of  15 information -- sorry -- other sources of food  16 available in the country to your uncle and your father  17 before your first recollection?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Does it also include where your father and your uncle  20 fished before your first recollection?  21 A   Yes.  Of course as youngsters we were very interested  22 in where these different fishing holes were, so that's  23 right, we listened very carefully.  24 Q   All right.  Now, without -- you can't say whether your  25 uncle and your father built the cabin that you first  26 recall because my friend objected to that, but can you  27 describe that cabin?  28 A  Well, the best description I guess of the cabin is in  29 the book "We Pioneered", where there was a picture of  30 the cabin, which was just a small one-room cabin with  31 a dirt floor and split log roof with dirt on top to  32 keep it warm.  33 Q   And once again, I understand it that there was  34 another -- when you were born, another cabin on the  35 property.  Don't say when it was built, but can you  36 describe what it looked like?  37 A  Well, the second building was also log.  All buildings  38 in that particular time were log buildings, because  39 there were no sawmills.  It was log, and the lumber  40 for the roof and the lumber for the floor was all  41 whip-sawn lumber.  You put the log up on a stand and  42 you had one fellow underneath and one on top pulling  43 the saw up and down, and believe me, it was hard work.  44 We tried it later on in life.  45 MR. WILLMS:  And the dimensions of the first or the smaller  46 cabin that you observed?  47 MR. GRANT:  Oh, okay.  My friend may have answered this in his 18887  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 last phrase.  I wonder if he can clarify when he's  2 asking these questions whether the witness observed.  3 The witness referred to the picture.  I'm assuming the  4 witness had seen these himself, but it wasn't clear  5 from the question and the answer.  6 A   Yes.  7 MR. GRANT:  These two cabins.  8 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I'm bearing in mind very carefully my  9 friend's objections.  10 THE COURT:  I took it the witness had seen these things.  11 MR. WILLMS:  12 Q   Oh, yes.  I'm not trying to get around the objection  13 that my friend took.  Now, can you describe the  14 smaller cabin?  15 A   It was just a one-room log cabin with a dirt floor  16 and --  17 Q   Size, sorry?  18 A   Size?  Around 16 X 18.  19 Q   All right.  And the larger —  20 A   Larger one was around 26 X 24, two stories.  21 Q   And by 26 X 24, you mean feet?  22 A   Feet, yes.  23 Q   And from the -- from your first recollection, where  24 did -- did your uncle live at the same location as  25 your parents, or did he live in a different location?  26 A   No.  He lived -- he lived in the cabin with my dad  27 until my mother came out in 1915, when my dad was  2 8 married.  Then he moved a mile away to his own ranch.  29 MR. WILLMS:  Now, I take it I can ask when — well, I better —  30 do you know when your mother arrived?  Just wait, I  31 have to see if my friend has an objection.  32 MR. GRANT:  No, my lord.  I appreciate my friend's care, but I  33 said these little particular points like the date of  34 his father and mother's arrival, as you said, the date  35 of his family's arrival, I'm not objecting to that.  36 MR. WILLMS:  37 Q   All right.  Your mother arrived in 1915?  38 A   That's right.  39 Q   And did your -- from your recollection, did your  40 parents continue to live on the farm near Ootsa Lake?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And until when?  43 A   Until they died.  44 Q   And your mother died in?  45 A   In 1945.  46 Q   Your father?  47 A   In '51. CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And they continued to live in the larger house that  2 you've described?  3 A   That's right.  4 Q   And your uncle, who lived about a mile away, he was  5 married in 1921?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Did your uncle -- how long did your uncle and his wife  8 remain in the area?  9 A   They lived there until 1976.  10 Q   And then —  11 A   Yeah, '76.  12 Q   And then they --  13 A   Then they moved to Victoria.  14 Q   Now, from your first -- first of all, you --  15 A   '66.  16 Q   '66?  One of the things that your father and your  17 uncle talked about was how supplies came into the  18 area?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   All right.  And is the source of your knowledge about  21 how supplies came into the area prior to your first  22 recollection, is that, as with some of your other  23 evidence, from your uncle's diary, from your father,  24 from discussions at picnics and the like, is that --  25 A   Yes.  There was quite a number of government  26 publications, I believe, that referred to people  27 coming into the area across from the Caribou, Bella  28 Coola and Hazelton.  29 THE COURT:  Isn't this what's been objected to?  30 MR. WILLMS:  31 Q   No.  I just want to know the source of the  32 information, my lord, and I want to pick up personal  33 information.  Now, after you were born where did  34 supplies come into that Ootsa Lake area from?  35 A   By the time -- by 1921 it was a little store at the  36 head of Francois Lake, and supplies -- the rest of the  37 supplies came in from Houston over the Buck Flats  38 trail by wagon and sleigh.  39 Q   Now, from -- and is that the same way other machinery  40 would get in, like farm machinery?  41 A  My dad, he carried his farm machinery out with -- over  42 the mountain from Bella Coola by pack horse.  43 Q   You can't give that evidence because it's been  44 objected to, but the machinery that was brought in  45 that you recall coming in?  46 A   I was told that this is the way the machinery came in,  47 mainly from Bella Coola. 18889  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   No, I'm sorry.  From your first recollection, I  2 suppose when you were six or seven, in the 20's, how  3 do you remember, if you do remember, how machinery got  4 in after that time?  5 A   Oh, after that.  Well, then it would come by wagon  6 from Burns Lake and Houston.  7 Q   Now, you have three brothers?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And your brother John was born in 1916, your brother  10 Hugh in 1917, and your brother Miles in 1919?  11 A   Right.  12 Q   Can you tell his lordship where you received your  13 education, formal education?  14 A   I received my formal education in the living-room in  15 the old log house by correspondence, through the  16 Victoria Correspondence Course, and I was taught by my  17 mother and my dad.  18 Q   And can you describe the recreational pastimes that  19 you recall from the late 20's, early '30's?  20 A   Quite different to what they are today.  One of our  21 most interesting recreational -- I guess for  22 excitement was to roll rocks down mountains on grizzly  23 bears, and of course we did some skating, but mainly  24 we thought hunting and trapping was our recreation.  25 Q   Did you observe or assist your father or your uncle  26 fishing?  27 A   Yes.  Right from when I could toddle along.  28 Q   And can you describe, first of all, the method of  29 fishing that was used by your uncle?  30 A  My dad used to make his own fish nets.  He would sit  31 upstairs by the hour making fish nets, and he would  32 set them under the ice, which I thought was very  33 interesting, and I did it many times later on in life.  34 You cut holes through the ice and then push a pole  35 from one hole to the next and until you have a line  36 under the ice, and you pull your net under the ice and  37 leave it there overnight or for two days or whatever,  38 and then you pull it back the other way and pull the  39 net and the fish out, and you still have your line  40 under the ice.  And you leave it that way all winter.  41 Of course if you're very smart you put it in in the  42 fall before the ice comes, but most people quite often  43 don't think of those things in time.  44 Q   Did your father share or give those nets to anybody  45 that you are aware of?  46 A   The only one I remember, he built one for our friend  47 Jimmy Andrews so that he could catch fish at the head 18890  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 of Ootsa Lake, and Jimmy, being a good neighbour, used  2 to give us some of the fish when he caught them, and  3 same as we would give him moose meat or sugar or  4 flower if he was in need.  5 Q   All right.  Do you remember the kinds of fish that you  6 and your father and your uncle fished for in -- in the  7 pre-war period?  8 A   Yes.  There were mainly trout, there was no char in  9 Ootsa Lake system, they're in the Francois Lake  10 system, so we were fishing mainly for trout, squaw(?)  11 fish, suckers and ling.  We put a ling line out with a  12 fish head on it, and we caught quite a few fish that  13 way, but nets were used a great deal in the  14 summer-time, though we would go out with a willow  15 stick and piece of string on it and catch fish.  16 Q   And do you remember the lakes that you fished in and  17 where you went as well with your father and uncle  18 fishing?  19 A   The most exciting trips of the year is when we would  20 leave Ootsa Lake and paddle up to the head of Ootsa  21 Lake, which was eight miles, and then up to Tahtsa  22 River, to the junction of the Tahtsa and Whitesail,  23 and we would travel up the Whitesail about 15, 20  24 miles, and catch Kokanees.  They were a landlocked  25 salmon around eight inches long and they're excellent  26 eating, and we used to catch them and put them in  27 barrels and salt them for winter use, and also can  28 some, and quite a lot were dried for our foxes and  2 9 mink.  30 Q   Now, you mentioned trapping.  Where did you trap?  31 A   I started off trapping when I was very very young for  32 weasel around the ranch, but our trapline -- or dad's  33 trapline extended from the ranch west over the top of  34 Shelford Hills, and it was between Jimmy Andrews'  35 trapline and Mathew Sam's trapline.  36 Q   Did you have any discussions with either Jimmy Andrews  37 or Mathew Sam about your -- how your father came to  38 have that trapline?  39 A   Yes.  It was -- I used to go fishing with Jimmy Andrew  40 quite regularly in the wintertime out in the ice, and  41 it was a mutual agreement, I think you would say, that  42 Jimmy Andrew, he liked trapping the river delta area  43 of Ootsa Lake, where there was lots of mink, muskrats  44 and such like, and in the early days lots of beaver,  45 and Mathew Sam went to the head of Francois Lake and  46 the delta above Francois Lake for the same reasons.  47 So dad took to set in the highland between the two 18891  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  THE  COURT  17  A  18  THE  COURT  19  A  20  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  A  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  WILLM  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  traplines, and there was never any disputes whatsoever  that I can ever recall or were ever told about.  I wonder, Mr. Shelford, if you can just come over and  look at Exhibit 24A, registered traplines, and look  down just north of Ootsa Lake.  Can you identify the  trapline number that your dad had?  This number or this one?  The long number?  0604T039.  All right.  And perhaps you could identify the  trapline number that Jimmy Andrews had?  Yes.  That would be 0604T042.  And using the same numbers, can you identify the  trapline that Mathew Sam had?  Yes.  It would be 0604T041.  :  Where was your dad's again, please?  This one.  :  It went along the north shore of Ootsa?  No.  It went in a strip this way.  See here's Ootsa  Lake, and before they flooded Ootsa Lake it only came  up to about here, but it didn't take much at Ootsa  Lake except here.  :  Is this the easterly boundary?  Yes.  Our ranch is right there.  :  Right, thank you.  All right, thank you.  Now, in that pre-war period can  you -- what kinds of fur did you trap or did your  father trap?  Yes.  Once -- it was mainly marten, fisher, lynx,  wolverine, muskrats, weasel, squirrels, foxes,  coyotes, wolves.  Was there much beaver trapped before the war?  Not when I first remember.  Prior to that my dad said  they were very plentiful.  You can't say that.  But not during my time.  All right.  In the pre-war period?  Yes.  Now, were the first sold, and if so to -- who  purchased the first?  Our first were all sold mainly to Montreal Fur Auction  Sales and Western Fur Auction Sales.  Earlier on it  was known as Pappas.  That's P-A-P-P-A-S?  Yes.  He used to travel through the north country in  the early years and buy fur. 18892  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Now, you mentioned hunting in the pre-war period.  Can  2 you describe the areas that you've hunted in?  3 A  Well, we mainly hunted right from our ranch towards  4 the Shelford Hills, which would be also in our  5 trapping area.  We didn't have to travel too far and  6 we didn't want to travel too far, because the only way  7 we could get moose or deer, or whatever it was, back  8 to the ranch was either pack it on our backs or come  9 back home and get a pack horse and go out and get it.  10 We kept fairly close to the ranch most the year.  11 Q   And what -- do you recall the animals that you hunted  12 in the pre-war period?  13 A   Oh, it was mainly deer and moose.  Occasionally in the  14 wintertime we would go up Mount Wells and hunt  15 caribou, but that was very rare.  16 Q   All right.  17 A  We would also hunt bears.  My mother liked the bear  18 for fat to make pies and also make soap.  She made all  19 our own soap.  20 Q   Now, do you recall other foods in the pre-war period  21 that you obtained from the land?  22 A   Oh, yes.  We had to obtain practically everything from  23 the land, so berry picking was very important, from  24 what I can first remember, especially huckleberries,  25 blueberries, cranberries, raspberries, some  26 strawberries, Saskatoons in some areas, but they  27 weren't too common in the Ootsa Lake watershed.  28 Q   Do you remember how far you would travel to pick these  29 berries?  30 A   Oh, usually three or four miles from the ranch, but  31 sometimes we would go further afield, because if there  32 was a forest fire -- the raspberries come up after a  33 forest fire, so we would head for the forest fire  34 area, and quite often you would meet your neighbours  35 in the same berry patch.  Our friend Jimmy Andrew of  36 course would go picking usually in the same patch as  37 we would, and we would have a sort of a picnic dinner  38 and generally enjoy ourselves.  So it was quite an  39 outing as far as we would -- we were concerned as  40 young people.  41 Q   All right.  Now, the -- I should have asked this while  42 you were at the trapline map, Exhibit 24A, but did  43 your uncle have a trapline as well?  44 A  Well, I don't think my uncle's trapline was ever  45 registered.  It was before the registration.  It was  46 up the Tahtsa River, just below the Mosquito Hills.  47 Let's find Mosquito Hills on here.  It will be right 18893  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 around in -- must be right in here.  I can't find it.  2 Q   All right.  Perhaps we should mark that.  You don't  3 think that that trapline is registered?  4 A   It would be right in here.  5 THE COURT:  Just east of Tahtsa Lake?  6 A   Yeah.  7 MR. WILLMS:  8 Q   Could you mark with a "3" in blue on Exhibit 24A where  9 your uncle trapped?  10 A   "3"?  11 Q   A "3", please.  And we might as well get your  12 brother's trapline while we're at Exhibit 24A.  Your  13 brother had a trapline, you don't need to mark it if  14 there's a number there?  15 A   Yes, there's a number there.  16 Q   What number is identified?  17 A   0602T005.  18 Q   And that's your brother John?  19 A   Yes.  2 0 Q   Now, you've mentioned Jimmy Andrew and Mathew Sam.  I  21 wonder, and -- if you could mark with a "4" on Exhibit  22 55C, the number "4" in blue, where Jimmy Andrew lived?  23 A   This map of course is since the flooding of the lake,  24 but it's approximately right there.  25 Q   And that's just to the north-east of what is called  26 now Whitesail Reach?  27 A   Yeah, that's right.  28 THE COURT:  North-east?  29 MR. WILLMS:  30 Q   North and east of the marking on the map, my lord.  It  31 says Whitesail Reach.  And Jimmy Andrew was someone  32 that you knew during the pre-war period?  33 A   Yes, very well.  He used to come and work for us, and  34 as I say, we hunted with him quite a bit, fished.  35 Q   How many people were in the family that you can  36 remember?  37 A  Well, I remember most of them really quite well.  Tony  38 was the eldest boy, and then there was Alec, and  39 Peter, and Jimmy and Irene, and there was three other  40 girls, I think Esther was one of them, but I -- there  41 was I think eight in total.  They were younger than  42 our -- just slightly younger than I was, for years,  43 the eldest one.  44 Q   All right.  And do you know whether or not at that  45 time Jimmy Andrew lived on or off the reserve?  46 A   He lived just on the east side of the little reserve  47 at the head of Ootsa Lake. 18894  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   We've already heard some evidence about where Mathew  2 Sam lived.  You know that he lived on Francois Lake on  3 a reserve?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Now, did -- in the pre-war period in your discussions  6 with Jimmy Andrew did you learn anything about hunting  7 or fishing or trapping or discuss that with him?  8 A  All the time.  Jimmy Andrew was certainly a person  9 that taught us how to make a fyke, which the Indians  10 used in those days, made of willows and willow bark.  11 Willow bark had to be green, otherwise it would break,  12 so the -- once it was wound around the upright willow  13 sticks it was quite strong, and you could set it in a  14 creek, and the fish coming upstream would go into the  15 fyke, and then you could go next day and pick them  16 out.  I have to say, it was the most modern way of  17 fishing that we have used to this point, because if  18 there was fish you wanted to let go, you could, and  19 it's unfortunate it isn't used today.  20 Q   Now, how about hunting?  21 A   Hunting?  We used to go hunting ducks and geese mainly  22 with Jimmy Andrew.  He certainly was a great teacher,  23 and he taught us kids how to crawl through the long  24 grass and not make any noise to scare the geese, and  25 you had to do it when it was raining hard, because  26 rain makes a certain amount of noise and it's also  27 damp so there wasn't any rustle of the grass.  So  28 Jimmy was an excellent teacher on hunting geese and  29 ducks.  30 Q   And I understand that he was not a bad marksman from  31 time to time?  32 A   He was excellent.  33 Q   During the pre-war period, can you say on how many  34 occasions you may have either hunted or fished or been  35 with Jimmy Andrew when he hunted or fished?  36 A  Well, several times a year, especially in the  37 wintertime, because he used to come to -- there was a  38 lake half a mile from our ranch that when I was about  39 seven or eight years old we put trout in this lake  40 where there wasn't any before, and they grew up to as  41 high as 13 pounds, and so it was excellent fishing, so  42 everyone in the country, during the depression years  43 especially, came to Eastern Lake and set up a tent in  44 the camp and caught fish and smoked them over the camp  45 fire, and even canned fish right on the lake.  Jimmy  46 Andrew used to come there and get a fairly good supply  47 for his family and take them back to his cabin at the 18895  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 head of Ootsa Lake by panslide or pack board.  2 Q   The name of this lake was?  3 A   Eastern lake.  4 Q   Eastern lake?  5 A  Mainly because it was east of our ranch.  We named  6 most of those lakes in there.  7 Q   Was it on your ranch or off?  8 A   No.  It was off the ranch.  9 Q   Now, did -- at that time as well did you hunt or  10 trap -- or sorry, hunt or fish with Mathew Sam?  11 A   No.  I never did hunt or fish with Mathew Sam.  We  12 used to see Mathew Sam quite often going to Frank  13 Gale's store at the head of Francois Lake.  14 Q   Now, from the time of your first recollection to the  15 war, 1939, what was the source of income for your  16 family and also for the other families in the area, to  17 your personal knowledge?  18 A  Well, actually trapping was by far the main source of  19 income, especially in the earlier years.  When you got  20 into the depression years on to 1939, by that time we  21 had foxes and mink on the ranch, and we also had  22 cattle and sheep.  So it wasn't quite as important in  23 the late 30's as it was earlier, but to people  24 generally, whether they be native or whites, trapping  25 was really the main source of income.  2 6 Q   What about you've talked about the game and fish and  27 berries, what were the other sources of food for your  28 family and other families in the area?  29 A  Well, the family garden was very very important, and  30 we had a root house built into the bank so it couldn't  31 freeze, with double doors and everything, covered with  32 two or three feet of metapeat(?) off our meta(?), and  33 we used to keep a real good garden, potatoes, which we  34 mainly had to grow up on my uncle's place because it  35 was frost in the summertime down on our place, which  36 was a lower piece of land, but carrots, cabbages,  37 turnips.  We could grow the best turnips in the world  38 in the northern part of British Columbia.  39 Q   And how about did you ever see a garden or anything  40 like that at Jimmy Andrews'?  41 A  Well, my dad tried to teach Jimmy Andrew how to raise  42 a garden, and he finally mastered it quite well and he  43 raised quite a few potatoes and turnips.  He never got  44 on to the other types of vegetables like lettuce and  45 others, but he worked hard at it and it was nice to  46 see, because it did help them a great deal because  47 there was times when they had -- they suffered hard 18896  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 times, like lots of white families did too.  Of course  2 in those days we didn't look on people as Indians and  3 whites, they were just people, period, which is the  4 way it should be.  5 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, this may be an appropriate time to take  6 the morning break.  7 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  9 short recess.  10  11 (MORNING RECESS TAKEN AT 11:15)  12  13 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  14 a true and accurate transcript of the  15 proceedings herein transcribed to the  16 best of my skill and ability  17  18  19  20  21 Graham D. Parker  22 Official Reporter.  23 United Reporting Service Ltd.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18897  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  4 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I am going to digress from the chronology  5 for one question, because I know my friends are  6 waiting in respect of your lordship's ruling  7 yesterday.  8 Q   During your period in Cabinet, Mr. Shelford, in 1968  9 to 1972, can you say whether or not minutes of the  10 Cabinet meetings, the Executive Committee Meetings  11 were kept?  12 A   No.  I am quite sure they weren't.  13 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  Now, my lord, I've asked for a search  14 to be done and I have a letter from Ann Newby, the  15 Director of Cabinet Operations respecting the  16 Executive Committee Meeting and as Miss Newby says,  17 she reviewed the cabinet and Cabinet Committee files  18 for the period 1968 to 1972 and 1978 to 1979 in search  19 of minutes that would reflect discussion of Indian  20 policy or Indian land claim issues and that she's been  21 unable to locate minutes.  "In the time given, I have  22 been unable to locate minutes related to either of  23 these issues in the files."  And in discussions with  24 Miss Newby, my lord, I am advised that she has been  25 through the years, all of the years that are reflected  26 there, '68 to '72 under her control.  So if that helps  27 my friend, as far as we are aware there are none.  28 THE COURT:  Well, I am not sure from this what there is none of.  29 MR. WILLMS:  Well, yesterday —  30 THE COURT:  The witness says that they didn't keep minutes and  31 this says that there are no minutes that discuss these  32 issues, which suggest there are minutes.  33 MR. WILLMS:  No.  Your lordship said yesterday that "minutes of  34 the Executive Council while Mr. Shelford -- and policy  35 related to the land claims territory and land claims  36 policy should be disclosed."  And the letter reflects  37 my request.  She doesn't know what Mr. Shelford said.  38 I didn't tell her what Mr. Shelford said.  I said go  39 look for any minutes of the Executive Committee in  40 that period and that's why -- that's why the letter is  41 written that way, my lord.  She went looking for it  42 assuming there was minutes and found nothing.  Now, as  43 I have said Mr. Shelford gave evidence there weren't  44 any minutes.  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 MR. WILLMS:  I hope that that now puts all this to rest.  47 MR. GRANT:  Well, I find it amazing, my lord — C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  I mean, all I am concerned about is  MR. WILLMS:  Well, my -  THE COURT:  Oh.  MR. GRANT:  But it may  this .  THE COURT:  The government of this province doesn't keep minutes  of representatives.  MR. GRANT:  I am sure the government of this province may not  kept minutes in sensitive times about Indian policy  and land claims issues.  But I am only concerned about  the proviso of Miss Newby.  Obviously she has made her  search in the 24 hours and she provides in that time  she has been able unable to find it.  I am not sure  whether that means she has looked at some and hasn't  been able to look at all of them or she hasn't  completed her review.  I only ask that my friend  ensure that she be able to complete her review and if  that takes longer, that takes longer.  Her review is  not complete.  MR. WILLMS:  It's complete, my lord.  MR. GRANT:  She said, "In the time given, I have been unable to  locate minutes related to either of these issues in  the files."  And I don't know whether that means she  has truncated her search because she was given a 24  hour notice or something.  THE COURT:  Well, I think this — I think this carries it this  far, that I would not require anything further in the  absence of a formal application on notice so that  material could be prepared.  It seems to me that I  have gone as far as I should go on an informal basis.  This satisfies me that I would be straying from  practice if I was to direct something additional to  what's been done up to now in the absence of a formal  application.  MR. GRANT:  Well, and I reserve the right that we would bring on  such a formal application.  Of course not only  covering these years but a broader spectrum relating  to these documents.  THE COURT:  All right.  MR. WILLMS:  Q   Now, going back into the pre-war period, Mr. Shelford,  were animals raised on your farm and if so, can you  tell his lordship what animals were raised?  A  Well, I think I mentioned before that we had foxes and  mink, sheep, cattle, goats, occasionally some rabbits.  We tried to raise fisher, but that wasn't too  successful.  We kept them around as pets for about ten  years but never got any little ones. 18899  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And did any of those animals also contribute to the  2 family income in pre-war years?  3 A   Oh, very much so.  Prior to having the family I can  4 remember the day very clearly when my mom and dad went  5 into the winter with five dollars in their pocket and  6 they wouldn't get a cent until next spring when the  7 fur was sold.  It was that important.  And I can  8 remember that quite well.  9 Q   Now, you talked earlier about visiting Jimmy Andrews.  10 How often per year would you say that you visited  11 Jimmy Andrews or were down at Jimmy Andrews' place at  12 the end of Ootsa Lake?  13 A   Some parts of the year we would be there every week  14 because we had a half section of land on the head of  15 Ootsa Lake which was later flooded out, but it was  16 only half a mile from Jimmy's cabin.  And so we would  17 haul hay from up there back to the home ranch eight  18 miles away, at least sometimes two and three times a  19 week.  And if it was a very cold day, and the wind  20 really can blow on those lakes in the wintertime, we  21 used to stop at Jimmy Andrews' cabin and go there and  22 get warm and had our lunch and go over and pick up our  23 load of hay and come back home.  So we saw a great  24 deal of Jimmy Andrews.  25 Q   You said you dropped in and had lunch.  Can you  2 6 compare the food that you ate at Jimmy Andrews' place  27 to the food that you ate at your own?  28 A   Except that we had a far greater variety of vegetables  29 than what he would have, it wouldn't be too different.  30 He would have moose meat and the deer meat and  31 occasionally even porcupine and bear meat which was  32 very good and all I was -- well, I was old enough to  33 get around, of course he had flour and they made their  34 own bread.  So it wasn't too different to our own, but  35 it was times when Jimmy Andrews and his family were  36 very very short of food.  Sometimes in the  37 wintertime.  38 Q   And can you explain whether or not your family and  39 Jimmy Andrews' family shared food either from you to  40 him or from his family to yours?  41 A   Oh, very often we had a cabin up at the head of Ootsa  42 Lake.  Just a cabin.  We didn't lock the door at all.  43 No one locked doors in those days.  And we kept rolled  44 oats, rice and other things that you could keep, like  45 macaroni.  Put them in cans.  And if Jimmy was short  46 of food, he would -- he would go and get what there  47 was in the cabin.  But he always told my dad.  And he 18900  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 always brought it back.  And if he didn't bring it  2 back, he'd come and say, "Well, I got your rice and  3 rolled oats and I'll give you some muskrats for it."  4 Q   Now, how about food from Jimmy Andrews' family to your  5 family?  6 A   Jimmy was -- would bring us fish, especially in the  7 springtime when the big lake trout would run up  8 Andrews Creek.  He'd catch sometimes 30 or 40 fish in  9 his net in a night.  He would paddle his boat down to  10 our land and bring us two or three fish.  And if he  11 killed a moose he quite often would give us a quarter.  12 And if we killed a moose when we were up at the head  13 of Ootsa Lake we would give them each.  So we  14 exchanged a lot back and forth, which that was a  15 relationship of course valued a great deal by all  16 settlers was sharing, because survival was the name of  17 the game, let's face it, whether you were white or  18 Indian.  19 Q   You mentioned a cabin at the head of Ootsa Lake.  How  2 0 close was that to where Jimmy Andrews lived?  21 A  About half a mile across the water.  We could see  22 Jimmy's cabin from our little cabin.  23 Q   And was that cabin on you described a hay meadow.  Was  24 that where it was?  25 A   Yes.  2 6 Q   And that was land that was owned by your family?  27 A   It was owned -- we owned a half section of it.  And in  28 the springtime when there was a runoff in the  29 mountains the whole area flooded.  So it was under  30 water in the springtime and later the water went down  31 and we were able to hay it.  But it was a great  32 insurance policy, because if we had a drought, which  33 is very common in the interior of British Columbia, we  34 could go up in these meadows and be sure of a crop of  35 hay, because it always grew because there was lots of  36 moisture underneath.  37 Q   Did Jimmy Andrews have livestock?  38 A   He had a cow he got from us and later on he got a calf  39 from that cow and I don't think he ever had more than  40 four.  But the cow added quite a bit to his life of  41 his family because he then got milk and such like and  42 sometimes made butter even from the milk.  43 Q   Any other livestock that you remember?  44 A   No, I don't think he had any others except in dogs.  45 Q   Now, you mentioned Matthew Sam earlier.  How often do  46 you recall in the pre-war years going to Matthew Sam  47 and visiting with Matthew Sam or his family? 18901  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 A  We'd -- quite often we'd see Matthew Sam quite often  2 at community picnics, but we would also see him in  3 Frank Gale's store and my dad hauled hay over close to  4 Matthew Sam when they were putting salmon in the  5 Nadina River.  And -- but we would see Matthew every  6 year when we drove cattle from the home ranch to  7 Houston to the railway track.  That was an exciting  8 time for all of us was a cattle drive because we  9 collected five or six from all the various neighbours,  10 marked them with paint and then shipped them out to  11 Vancouver, sometimes Edmonton, but mainly Vancouver  12 where they were sold and the cattle dealer would make  13 sure what colour paint they were painted with and the  14 owner of the cattle and such like.  15 Q   The cattle drive that you did would go past the west  16 end of Francois Lake?  17 A   Yes.  We quite often let our cattle graze on Matthews'  18 fields while we spent a night at -- it was eight  19 miles, a little better than eight from the home ranch  20 to Matthew Sam's, and so we would quite often -- by  21 the time we got all the cattle collected we would get  22 them over as far as Matthew Sam's.  We would spend the  23 night there because the river was -- Nadina River kept  24 the cattle from going home again and it was fairly  25 easy to keep a watch on them.  So we saw a fair amount  26 of Matthew Sam, but nothing like that we did with  2 7 Jimmy Andrews.  28 Q   During the time that you were at Matthew Sam's did you  29 share a meal?  30 A   Yes.  Matthew was -- he was a good neighbour and he  31 would have fish from Francois Lake.  Francois Lake  32 have char and they are a very nice eating fish and  33 they would grow as high as 25, 30 pounds and Matthew  34 and his wife, Amelia, she certainly knew how to cook  35 them.  36 Q   Could you notice the similarities or differences  37 between the types of food that you ate while you were  38 there and the types of food that you ate at home?  39 A   Not really too much.  As I say, we were heavier on the  40 vegetables, as I say, than they were.  But as I say, I  41 don't think there was too much difference.  42 Q   Now, in addition to Jimmy Andrews and Matthew Sam in  43 the pre-war years, do you recall any other native  44 Indians that you either visited or visited you, your  45 family and you at Ootsa Lake?  46 A   The only ones I recall was Keom Morris used to come  47 through and quite often his brother Uskew 18902  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  THE  COURT  37  A  38  THE  COURT  39  A  40  MR.  GRANT  41  A  42  THE  COURT  43  A  44  THE  COURT  45  A  46  THE  COURT  47  A  (phonetic) -- Ishtoo (phonetic) and they would come  through by sleigh as far as our ranch and unload their  sleigh and put it on hand sleds and take it by hand  sled up to the lake to go trapping up the Tahtsa and  Whitesail rivers.  Now, quite often we would be  hauling hay at that time of the year from the head of  the Ootsa Lake, so we would let them throw their  supplies on our hay rack and they could climb on  themselves and sometimes did.  Other times they  snowshoed up to the head of Ootsa Lake and did a bit  of hunting on their way up there if they wanted meat  or anything.  But quite often they got on their sleigh  on the sleigh and rode to the head of Ootsa Lake which  saved them an eight mile walk and they had all their  supplies ready to go up to the Tahtsa River.  What time of year?  Most times they came through just before muskrat  trapping when the lakes start to go out is the best  time to catch muskrats.  Some catch them in the middle  of winter.  We did as kids, but most people catch  muskrats in late -- early April.  Depending on the  year.  If it's an early spring it would quite often be  early April.  If it was a late spring it would be  later in April.  They got to know, like everyone else,  the weather conditions and weather was suitable to go  trapping.  And other years occasionally they would  come in in the fall in the end of October so they  could get up to their trapline by the time the fur was  prime and they would stay up there till Christmas and  then come back.  But usually have someone come and  pick up their team of horses and sleigh and take them  back to Grassy Plains, an area where they mainly  lived.  And was this a regular --  I would say reasonable regular, yes.  :  I didn't get their names.  Keom Morris.  :  K-e —  K-e-h-o-m-e, I believe.  :  K-e-o-m.  K-e-o-m.  :  Morris?  Morris.  :  M-o-r-r-i-s?  Yes.  :  What did you say his brother's name was?  Ishtoo. 18903  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1  THE COURT  2  A  3  THE COURT  4  A  5  MR. WILLM  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  :  Ishtoo?  I couldn't spell it for you, I think.  :  All right.  They lived at Grassy Plains, did they?  Yes.  And did they tell you where they were trapping?  Yes.  They would tell us that they were heading up to  the trapline at Tahtsa River, but they didn't give the  exact location of where they were trapping as a rule.  The Tahtsa River is a big chunk of country and so it's  hard to just say well, I am going to such and such a  spot.  Did you see them when they -- you saw them going in  when they were going to go trapping.  Did you see them  come out and what they had with them when they came  out?  Yes.  They would -- they would stop at the ranch  and -- see, we had a telephone at the ranch and so we  could telephone out to Grassy Plains and tell their  relatives, wife, or whoever that they were there and  send the sleigh out and -- but they would show my dad  the fur that they caught and they were naturally very  proud of what they caught.  Do you remember the kinds of furs that --  It was mainly marten, fisher, wolverine, weasels, some  squirrels, lynx, otter.  Pre-war how about beaver?  There was very few beaver in that part of the country  pre-war.  Now, other than the Jimmy Andrews family, the Matthew  Sam family, Keom Morris or Ishtoo Morris, before the  war do you recall any other native Indians that you  met by name?  Not really, no, I didn't.  I mean we'd see Indians at  the 1st of July picnics, for instance, 24th of May  picnic, but I really didn't know who they were.  They  joined in picnics the same as everyone else.  Do you remember where those picnics were?  They were usually held -- 1st of July was held at  Stratham, which was a little bit east of Wistaria, and  the 24th of May was usually held at the Wistaria  school grounds.  Compared to -- the dress compared to the clothing that  you and your family had, what were the Jimmy Andrews  family wearing, the Matthew Sam family wearing, Keom  Morris or Ishtoo Morris?  Really no different to what we wore, I would say; blue 18904  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 jeans was very common.  The wintertime usually you  2 tried to have some sort of a wool pair of pants,  3 because jeans get wet very quickly if you are in the  4 snow country, but the wool keeps you warm.  Even if  5 it's wet it keeps you warm.  6 Q   Did you during in the pre-war period have discussions  7 with Jimmy Andrews, Matthew Sam or either of the  8 Morrises about their life and their quality of life?  9 A  Mainly with Jimmy Andrews.  I used to enjoy more than  10 anything else sitting on a frozen lake with a campfire  11 going and talking to Jimmy Andrews because he was --  12 he was short in formal education.  In fact he didn't  13 have any at all.  But he was certainly long in common  14 sense.  And it was very interesting to hear him tell  15 stories of his dad and grandfather, how they lived and  16 how happy they were when the fishnets and the rifles  17 came in to make life a little easier.  18 Q   Can you describe some of the other stories that -- or  19 events that were related to you by Jimmy Andrews about  20 the -- his life and his father's life?  21 A   He told us of hardships they had especially in the  22 winter, you know, and I certainly have a great deal of  23 respect for anyone that can survive in a country like  24 that especially in the long winter when there is four  25 feet of ice on the lake and no fishnets to catch fish.  26 They had to look ahead a great deal to get a supply of  27 frozen fish, frozen meat and berries before winter set  28 in, otherwise they claimed it was a fair amount of  29 starvation.  30 Q   By they you mean -- ?  31 A   Jimmy Andrews and Matthew Sam.  But we were always  32 disappointed that we tried to get them to go back  33 further, but I can understand myself how it's nearly  34 impossible to go back too far without something  35 written down.  It's very difficult, and they did very  36 well to go as far as they did.  Whether it was all  37 accurate or not of course I can't say.  38 Q   Now, by go back what do you mean?  39 A   I mean going back to their great great grandfathers  40 and such like and what they did and where they  41 travelled.  There was not too much information  42 available.  I often say the white man concocted a lot  43 of the history.  44 Q   And how far back did Jimmy Andrews go in telling you  45 about his family?  46 A   His grandfather was as far as he ever tried.  We tried  47 to push him into going further back, but he'd just say 18905  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 "not know" and I think that was true.  2 Q   Did you have similar conversations with Matthew Sam or  3 the Morrises?  4 A   Not to the same extent as with Jimmy Andrews, because  5 I would sit with Jimmy Andrews sometimes as I say on a  6 frozen lake from daylight till dusk and then we would  7 call it quits and he would go usually and camp  8 somewhere and I would walk back to the ranch.  But  9 Matthew Sam not as much detail.  We talked to him when  10 we took our cattle through and discussed old times,  11 but again we didn't get really as much information as  12 we wanted because we were interested in living there  13 and they were our friends, to find out what they did  14 and where they come from, because the old saying if  15 you don't know where you came from you don't know  16 where you are going.  17 THE COURT:  How much older was Jimmy Andrews than yourself?  18 A   He'd been 15 years or so.  Matthew Sam about the same.  19 MR. WILLMS:  20 Q   Meaning about 15 years older than you?  21 A   Yes.  And he would be a good 15 years older.  22 Q   And how about the Morrises?  23 A  Maybe a few years older.  Not too much.  24 THE COURT:  About the same age group as yourself or them?  25 A   They would be slightly -- they would be older than I  26 am.  2 7    THE COURT:  But not as old as Jimmy Andrews?  28 A   I would think pretty close to the same age, yes.  I  2 9 never did know their exact age.  Jimmy Andrews, we  30 were fairly sure what his age was, but there is really  31 very little records, excepting by the churches, of  32 date of births.  And Paddy Leon on Topley Landing, he  33 claimed his dad was a hundred and five when he died,  34 but there was no real record, and I know the Canadian  35 Department of Indians Affairs tried to find records  36 because they wanted to give him an award, but they  37 couldn't get anything to pin the exact date on.  38 MR. WILLMS:  39 Q   In the pre-war period did you ever talk to Jimmy  4 0 Andrews about the game population in the area west and  41 around Ootsa Lake?  42 A   Yes.  And Jimmy was really very good in describing the  43 cycle of nature, which is far better than what we do  44 in our schools today.  But he explained that game  45 population built up, which is quite true, and then it  46 goes down once the predator population gets more  47 plentiful than the game population, and then the 18906  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 predators themselves die off and then the game  2 population starts to build up.  Now, it's in these  3 valleys of game populations where the native Indians  4 naturally had difficulty in finding food.  And I don't  5 know sometimes how they ever did it.  You got to give  6 them credit.  7 Q   And did Jimmy Andrews talk to you about that  8 difficulty?  9 A   Yes.  Many times.  He maintained that some of the  10 weaker ones, families sometimes even died.  And that's  11 why naturally any improvement of food supplies was  12 valued.  And they used to, like us, used to set  13 forest -- small forest fires so that we would have  14 more game the next year or so, because game  15 populations always migrate to fires or fire areas  16 because the grass comes up, the little willows come up  17 and the feed is far better.  Naturally they like dense  18 forest to go and lay down, but for feed they like  19 going to the forest fire areas.  2 0 Q   And both you and Jimmy Andrews set fires?  21 A   Yes, yes.  Usually burn hillsides in the early spring  22 around the end of April, middle of May, because on the  23 north slopes of the hills they were still covered with  24 snow, so the fires couldn't get away too far.  But  25 even forest rangers lit fires in those early days to  26 create grazing for cattle.  Lodgepole pine was  27 considered a weed.  2 8 Q   Now, did Jimmy Andrews or Matthew Sam tell you about  29 their reaction and the reaction of the native people  30 to the coming of the white settlers?  31 A   Certainly both of them told us that they were very  32 pleased to get their hands on fishnets and rifles.  33 Q   For the obvious reasons?  34 A   It was easier to hunt game and catch fish.  35 Q   Now, you'd described the sources of food, if I can  36 call it from the -- rather than the store-bought food  37 or the grown food, the source of food that your family  38 had for game and berries and fish.  How did that  39 compare to the sources of food that Jimmy Andrews or  40 Matthew Sam had to your observation?  41 A   Not really too much difference, except I go back to  42 the gardens and we also grew grain and in the  43 Depression years we used winter rye and roasted it and  44 ground it up for coffee.  That was the only coffee we  45 had during the Depression years was baked rye.  We  46 thought it was great.  But I will bet if we drank it  47 today it would be terrible.  Then we ground up wheat 18907  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 and made our own bread.  We milked cows and made our  2 own cheese.  We kept pigs for bacon, hams, etc., cured  3 them ourselves.  So we were better off that way than  4 our neighbours Jimmy Andrews and Matthew Sam.  That's  5 once the farm animals came along.  6 Q   Now, do you know where Jimmy Andrews, and this is from  7 personal observation, where Jimmy Andrews hunted?  8 A   Yes.  He was very much like us.  He mainly hunted west  9 and north of his cabin.  But he was in -- the best  10 hunting area in that whole north country was the Ootsa  11 Lake Valley prior to the flooding by the Aluminum  12 Company of Canada, because there was thousands of  13 acres of marshland which was great for moose and ducks  14 and geese.  15 Q   You have identified the trapline, Jimmy Andrews  16 trapline.  To your knowledge did he trap anywhere  17 else?  Did you see him trap anywhere else or did he  18 tell you that he trapped anywhere else?  19 A   I think his trapline was so large that it was -- took  2 0 all his time to cover what he had.  He didn't have to  21 trap anywhere else.  22 Q   For fishing, do you know from observations you have  23 talked about fishing with Jimmy Andrews where he  24 fished?  25 A   He fished right out in front of his cabin mainly and  2 6 over to Andrews Creek where it meandered up into the  27 mountains which was around half a mile from his cabin.  28 But he would fish all over the channels coming into  29 the head of Ootsa Lake and it was practically an  30 unlimited supply of fish in the summertime, but in the  31 wintertime it was very difficult.  32 Q   And just finishing with berry picking, compared to  33 where you were picking berries where was Jimmy  34 Andrews?  35 A   Oh, quite often we were picking in the same area.  36 There was so many berries that it was sometimes miles  37 and miles of huckleberries, and if there was a forest  38 fire then there was -- the whole forest fire area  39 would be covered with raspberries.  And so there was  40 no shortage of fruit to pick.  The same way with wild  41 cranberries.  They came up after a forest fire and  42 they are easy to pick, because they are in clusters,  43 as many as 14 or 15 berries in a cluster, and you boil  44 them up and make jelly.  They are beautiful jelly.  45 Q   And getting to that -- you preserved and your family  46 preserved berries?  47 A   Yes. 1890?  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And how about Jimmy Andrews?  2 A   They preserved a fair amount.  But they also dried  3 berries which I guess is their traditional way of  4 preserving fruit.  Likely the only way they had at  5 certain times.  6 Q   All right.  But by preserving berries generally what  7 do you mean, canning?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   All right.  And did you observe the drying and how the  10 drying was done?  11 A   Oh, yes.  They would proudly show us all the dried  12 huckleberries they had.  It's not easy in a small  13 cabin like he had to find places where you could dry  14 berries without the rain getting on them.  But they  15 would put either large leaves down and put the berries  16 on top of them under spruce trees where the rain  17 couldn't get to them or they would put them up in the  18 attic of their cabin.  It's not easy to find a dry  19 place where -- because you need a place where wind can  20 flow through easy, otherwise they are inclined to  21 mold.  22 Q   Now, how about preserving fish, how did your family  23 preserve fish and how did the Andrews family preserve  24 fish?  25 A  Well, both them and us dried fish and dried moose  26 meat.  And we did most canning, though, of fish than  27 they did.  They did more drying.  2 8 Q   But they did some canning?  2 9 A   Some canning.  30 Q   And for game meat, how did you preserve moose, deer?  31 A   The only way you could keep moose meat was hang it up  32 in the shade where the wind could circulate around to  33 keep it from going moldy and then it would develop a  34 black crust on the outside and you could keep it for  35 three weeks to month.  Even in September, October.  In  36 the middle of the summer we usually tried to get deer,  37 because you could eat them up before they went rotten,  38 and that's true whether you are white or Indian.  3 9 Q   And how did Jimmy Andrews keep meat to your  40 observation?  41 A   Same as we did.  I guess we likely learned from him, I  42 would think part of it.  43 Q   You mentioned smoking it.  Did you smoke -- do you  44 smoke moose meat?  Did you smoke other meats?  45 A  We didn't smoke as much as some families.  One of our  46 neighbours, the Blackwell family, they smoked bear  47 meat the same as hams and used them as hams in the 18909  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 wintertime, and they smoke very well.  So Jimmy  2 Andrews family smoked more meat than we did.  We  3 preserved more than they did, but they smoked more  4 than we did.  It's a good way to preserve it.  5 Q   Now, you mentioned that you visited Jimmy Andrews'  6 place from time to time.  Did you also visit in the  7 winter?  Was the winter the time of year when you  8 visited the Andrews?  9 A   Yes.  We used to go right by his door hauling hay from  10 our hay meadows up across from his cabin.  11 Q   And in respect of food supply at the Andrews' place,  12 can you compare that at any time to yours from  13 observations that you made?  14 A  Well, we always had the vegetables where they quite  15 often didn't.  And we would supply them with the  16 potatoes and turnips quite often when we went up to  17 get hay.  It wasn't always easy to take potatoes and  18 turnips if it was cold weather.  They would freeze  19 before they would get there.  One of the ways we used  20 to keep vegetables in our trapping cabins, you would  21 cut a hole through the ice and drop the vegetables  22 down in in a sack, and of course under the ice they  23 wouldn't freeze.  And so when you came back to the  24 trapping cabin two weeks down the road you could chop  25 a hole in the ice and reach down into the sack and  26 pick out unfrozen vegetables.  And this is a practice  27 used by settlers generally, whether they be white or  2 8 Indian.  Jimmy Andrews used the same method when he  29 got vegetables like from us or he grew his own.  30 Q   Do you remember observing Jimmy Andrews in a winter in  31 respect of the food that he was eating and the effect  32 that it may have had on him?  33 A  Well, once or twice when we went up and it was a late  34 freeze-up, because the lake doesn't always freeze at  35 the same time of the year, and it has been known that  36 the lake never froze about twice in our memory, that  37 the lake didn't freeze at all.  And so if we didn't  38 get up there hauling hay, and there was times when we  39 did get up there, that Jimmy was not in as good a  40 shape as he might have been eating too much frozen --  41 or dried moose meat, which is great to take on a  42 trapline, but you don't want to have a steady diet of  43 it.  When we went walking with him he couldn't keep up  44 very far.  So there was times that they had problems.  45 And it wasn't Jimmy Andrews' family alone.  There was  46 white families in the area that were in pretty tough  47 shape at certain times of the year too and had to go 18910  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 to their neighbours for help.  2 Q   And the periods of time when Jimmy Andrews was not  3 able to keep up with you, was there anything that you  4 observed which rejuvenated his energy?  5 A  Well, once he got some rolled oats and rice and  6 macaroni and a few vegetables he was great.  See,  7 Jimmy Andrews' place to the closest store is between  8 15 and 20 miles, so you don't dash down to the store  9 every day, especially when you don't have a team of  10 horses and a sleigh.  So quite often he relied on us  11 when we were going to the store to pick him up a sack  12 of flour, a sack of sugar, rice, just basic things  13 that they had to have.  There was no luxury.  We  14 didn't have any luxury either.  So --.  15 Q   Now, I just want to go back.  You talked -- gave  16 evidence earlier this morning about Jimmy Andrews  17 relating what his father had told you -- what his  18 father had told him about his life.  Was there  19 something that Jimmy Andrews related to you about  20 going to get fish that had changed in Jimmy Andrews'  21 lifetime from his father or grandfather?  22 A   No.  I don't think there was too much change in fish.  23 Fish populations usually stay fairly stable.  Game  24 populations don't.  And no doubt if you are living in  25 a coastal area or a river area it's far easier to  26 supply yourself and that's why like Moricetown or any  27 of the river areas with the salmon runs.  See, on the  28 Ootsa Lake system there was no salmon runs, so they  29 had to rely on trout, sucker, squawfish, ling.  30 Q   Now, you mentioned Moricetown.  Was there any -- did  31 that come up in Jimmy Andrews' discussions about what  32 his father or grandfather had told him?  33 A  Well, his grandfather, I guess, occasionally went  34 through to Moricetown to catch fish in the fall or  35 summer or fall whenever they came up.  I am not sure  36 why.  I guess we weren't smart enough to ask him why  37 they didn't go and fish on the Morice River which was  38 really closer and maybe they did.  I don't know.  39 Jimmy Andrews -- there was certain jealousies, of  40 course, same as there is in white community that you  41 think so and so isn't as good or you are a little bit  42 scared of them.  And Jimmy Andrews didn't seem to want  43 to go to Moricetown.  44 Q   Did he tell you why?  45 A   No, he really didn't.  He just said, "oh, no like."  46 Q   But he did tell you that his grandfather had gone?  47 A   Yes. 18911  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And how about his father, did he talk about his  2 father?  3 A   He didn't mention him going there at all.  That's why  4 there is some gaps there that likely he may have gone  5 to the Morice River instead.  But the Morice River is  6 across country, wouldn't be more than 20 miles.  7 Q   Did you fish at the Morice River?  8 A   No, never did.  Not until the last ten years.  I have  9 never caught a fish in the Morice River.  So maybe I  10 am just a poor fisherman.  11 Q   You gave evidence earlier about the Morrises trapping  12 and Jimmy Andrews trapping and also Matthew Sam's  13 trapline.  Did you or your father in the pre-war  14 period buy fur from native Indians?  15 A   I certainly didn't buy any.  My dad bought very few.  16 And the reason he bought very few was because buying  17 fur is a real speciality thing and he thought it was  18 the best way to make enemies and he didn't want to  19 make enemies with anyone because he valued the  20 friendship of the people of the area, whether they be  21 white or native.  Because if you know fur, after it  22 comes prime and a month or so later you hold it up to  23 the light and you can see the ends of the hairs curled  24 over.  Now, a lot of people don't know this and if  25 they sell their fur and you give them 20 per cent less  26 because we called it singed fur, they would think you  27 were a bit of a crook because you give them 20 per  28 cent less which you had to to survive.  And so rather  29 than stand a chance of being criticized for being a  30 crook my dad would advise them to go to sell them to  31 the various fur houses, not to the travelling  32 salesman.  Sell them to Montreal Fur Auction Sales or  33 Western Fur Auction Sales.  It was good advice, too.  34 Q   And you have heard that advice?  35 A   I heard that advice, yes.  And we practiced that  36 ourselves.  37 Q   Can you explain from your visits to the Andrews, this  38 is pre-war, the division of labour in the Andrews  39 household?  40 A   They shared the chores the same as other families.  41 Jimmy Andrews was a good trapper I would say and his  42 wife was an excellent scraper.  She scraped the fur  43 and dried it and took care of it and she did an  44 excellent job.  The kids would do whatever chores  45 there was to do.  Take it, bring in the wood, cut  46 wood, because they didn't have buzz saws, and all that  47 sort of stuff or power saws to cut wood, so it was a 18912  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 matter of cutting it with an axe or a hand saw.  2 Q   Was there a difference between the contribution that  3 you as a child were making to your family and the  4 Andrews children?  5 A   Oh, I would say a fair amount of difference because  6 there wasn't the type of chores.  Like we had to feed  7 the cattle, feed the sheep, feed the pigs, feed the  8 chickens before breakfast because that was our job,  9 because after breakfast we had to start our  10 correspondence school work and that was great training  11 I think for young people too was to get up and do  12 things before breakfast.  13 Q   Did to your knowledge the Andrews children hunt?  14 A   Yes.  I would say they were no different to us.  Once  15 they could carry a 22 they would go out shooting  16 squirrels, shooting grouse, and certainly by the age  17 11 or 12 they would be out with a 22 hunting.  That  18 was sort of the magic age for a young person for  19 hunting was 11 or 12.  Some of us snook out before  20 that, but —.  21 Q   Now, you gave some evidence about trapping on your  22 father's trapline.  Can you describe how you would get  23 out onto that trapline and how long you might be on  24 the trapline away from the farm in the pre-war period?  25 A   Yes.  We would -- we would leave home in the early  26 morning and set our traps or look at our traps out --  27 we had a small cabin.  It was eight by ten.  And so we  28 would walk out to the first cabin and spend the night  2 9 and sometimes we would have traplines each way from  30 the first cabin, which we would go and look at the  31 next day.  And then the following day we would go on  32 to the second cabin, which was a further six miles  33 away and we do the same thing.  And they were just  34 very tiny cabins, split-log roof, dirt floor, bunks  35 with spruce bows for mattress and we had -- used to  36 carry a sleeping bag.  My mother made all our sleeping  37 bags from the sheep wool we had on the ranch.  She  38 would cart it and put it into like an eiderdown and  39 sew it up into a sleeping bag.  It was an excellent  40 sleeping bag, certainly better than what you can buy  41 today.  42 Q   How many cabins were there on the trapline?  43 A  We had three cabins and once we got to the far end  44 then we would start back.  So it was usually somewhere  45 around six days.  If the going was good we might do it  46 in five days or even four days.  But in the early part  47 of the winter when the heavy snow falls and you are 18913  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 breaking trail through a foot and a half, two feet of  2 snow, you are plenty tired when you get to the first  3 cabin and you want to stay there for a day and  4 recuperate and just go on the short lines.  Later on  5 in the year when there has been a bit of a thaw and a  6 crust on the snow you can skitter along on top of the  7 crust with snowshoes very easy and you can cover a lot  8 of country.  9 Q   Other than on snowshoes after winter started and the  10 first snow came, how else could you get around or out  11 to the trapline?  12 A   There wasn't any other way.  13 Q   And what would be the length, the distance between the  14 farm and the furthest cabin out in the wintertime?  15 A   Somewhere around between between 20, 25 miles.  16 Somewhere in that area.  17 Q   And that could take three --  18 A   That's by the way the crow flies.  If you are the way  19 we travelled, of course when you are going uphill and  20 down mountains and such like it's quite a bit further  21 than that.  22 Q   Now, how about your uncle, do you know how long he  23 would be out on his trapline from time to time in the  24 winter?  25 A   He went out and he describes it in his book "We  26 Pioneered," but he went out in late October and would  27 come back sometime in April.  Depending on the  28 weather.  If the river started to go out, he'd get  29 home as quick as he could.  But he'd try and get back  30 just as soon as the river started to move, because  31 once the ice moves it's difficult travelling for some  32 time.  Because even when you get down as far as the  33 lake the ice is starting to get weak and it's foolish  34 to go too far out on the lake.  We were always taught  35 to carry a pole with us.  In case we fell through you  36 could get on the pole and get back out again, which is  37 the only way to travel really.  If you are without a  38 pole and you fall through the ice you are in deep  39 trouble, because the ice keeps breaking as you try to  40 get up on it.  I have fallen through and scared myself  41 to death actually.  42 Q   Did you in the pre-war period -- can you just describe  43 the -- if I can put it this way, the technological  44 change that you recall between your first recollection  45 and beginning of the war 1939 in your area?  46 A  Well, I suppose as far as young people were concerned  47 likely the coming of the automobile was the big 18914  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 change.  And even though the roads were still just  2 stump roads, just still stumps we cut off at ground  3 level, the cars could move a certain amount, except in  4 the wintertime, because there was no snow plows even  5 after the World War II.  And so the automobile changed  6 things a lot, because rather than going by sleigh to  7 Frank Gale's store or later on to Schreiber's store  8 down Ootsa Lake, which was over 20 miles away, we  9 could then get in a car and we could drive to Burns  10 Lake even though it was a full day's drive 60 miles  11 there and back, because you had to travel so slow to  12 dodge the stumps and that.  13 Q   When did your family get their first vehicle?  14 A  We got it in 1937.  We shot eighteen hundred squirrels  15 in one winter to pay for the car and then we got our  16 preacher to go and buy it in Vancouver for $460, a  17 Model A.  18 Q   And he drove it back up?  19 A   Yes.  And he even taught us how to drive.  20 Q   When do you recall telephone?  21 A   Telephone came in very early in 1928 and it came  22 through from Houston across the Buck Flats Road,  23 across Matthew Sam's property, across the Nadina River  24 and over to the ranch.  We were the first telephone on  25 the line from Houston to the ranch and it extended  26 down Ootsa Lake and it was sometimes as many as 27  27 people on a party line.  But it was great to have it.  28 But if we had a storm and a tree fell over the line,  29 it was sort of recognized as your neighbourly job to  30 get on your saddle horse and ride down the telephone  31 line and when you found the tree, to cut it off and  32 then the line would be no longer grounded and you  33 could again hear on the telephone.  If the line was  34 broken you always carried a loop of wire on your  35 saddle horse and would join the line and everyone  36 would be back in business again.  37 Q   Did the telephone -- to your recollection was there a  38 telephone at Matthew Sam's?  39 A   No.  No.  4 0 Q   And how about Jimmy Andrews?  41 A   No.  No.  They never had a telephone.  See, they were  42 eight miles away from the ranch, which Jimmy Andrews  43 was, and so the telephone company, which was a  44 government telephone system in those early days and  45 then later on it was turned over to the B.C. Telephone  46 Company, and they wouldn't extend lines unless there  47 was so many per mile.  And -- 18915  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Now, other than telephone and the motor vehicle, were  2 there other technological changes that affected the  3 way of life, your way of life pre-war?  4 A  Well, of course the farm was developing enough by that  5 time that that changed things quite a bit as far as we  6 were personally concerned.  It took -- all of the  7 clearing of land was done by hand with a pick and  8 shovel and then we had stump pullers which were like a  9 jack.  You would crank them and finally pull a stump  10 out.  But I have seen my dad work a whole summer to  11 clear one acre.  And by the time World War II came  12 around things were definitely improving, better  13 gardens, more stock, a few more neighbours.  All  14 helped.  Better stores, too.  15 Q   I will just ask one more question and I will end the  16 pre-war period.  Did the family dependence on trapping  17 change up to the pre-war period?  18 A   Yes.  A great deal, because we were starting to get  19 some income from the cattle.  Even though in the  20 Depression years we were only getting two and a half  21 cents a pound for our prime steers and half a cent a  22 pound for our cows, it did help.  So often you would  23 get about $30 a head for your cattle, but $30 was a  24 lot of money in those days.  25 MR. WILLMS:  Thank you.  26 THE COURT:  All right.  Two o'clock, please.  27  2 8 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS)  29  30  31 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  32 a true and accurate transcript of the  33 proceedings herein to the best of my  34 skill and ability.  35  36  37  38  39 Laara Yardley,  40 Official Reporter,  41 United Reporting Service Ltd.  42  43  44  45  46  47 18916  C. M. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  7 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  8 MR. WILLMS:  9 Q   Now, you said earlier that you served with the  10 Canadian army between 1939 and 1945 in Europe, and you  11 served -- you were in Italy, France and up to Holland.  12 And you were on a gun crew?  13 A   Yes.  I was on an anti-aircraft gun, and it was used  14 for anti-aircraft and anti-tank, both, and also used  15 for shooting up pill boxes.  We brought them up to the  16 front line in the darkness and we'd shoot up a pill  17 box and take off before the mortars could catch up  18 with us.  19 Q   And did you have -- were you in charge of the gun crew  20 or —  21 A   Yeah.  I was a sergeant of the gun crew.  22 Q   Did you have native Indians on that crew?  23 A   Yes.  I had Ray and Fred Prince from Fort St. James.  24 They were excellent people to be with, and they went  25 pretty well all through Sicily and Italy with me and  26 on into into Europe, the rest of Europe.  27 Q   Do you know how they came to be in the Canadian army?  28 A   They were like the rest of us, they volunteered, and  29 there was quite a number of native Indians in the  30 Canadian Armed Forces, and I must say they were -- did  31 very well.  They were the same as everyone else.  We  32 didn't look on them as Indians or others, we just used  33 to look on them as sunburned Canadians, because we  34 were also sunburned when we got into Italy.  Even the  35 barmaids when we got back to England couldn't tell the  36 difference between Ray and Freddie Prince and  37 ourselves.  They couldn't pick out they were Indians.  38 We used to test them for a free drink, and we used to  39 usually win on it.  40 Q   And you returned from Europe in November of 1945?  41 A   That's right.  42 Q   And on your return, through either Legion functions or  43 any returning men functions, did you meet any other  44 native Indians in the area who had also fought in the  45 war?  46 A  Well, I quickly ran into one when I came back from  47 overseas.  They had a returning men's dance in Burns 18917  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Lake, and I took a couple of young ladies to the dance  2 with me, and when we got to the door, he was Moses  3 David, who served with the Canadian Forces.  He lived  4 in the Burns Lake district, and they stopped him from  5 going in because he was a native Indian.  6 Q   Who did that?  7 A   The people at the door that were putting on the  8 function for the returned men.  And I had had a couple  9 of drinks before I went and was quite upset about it,  10 and said that if they didn't allow him in we would  11 wreck the place.  So it was not the smartest thing to  12 say, I guess.  Anyway, it worked, and they let him in.  13 Q   And since that time have you or did you -- I take it  14 you know that Moses David is now dead?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   All right.  17 A   I met him from time to time after that, and we used to  18 laugh about the incident.  19 Q   You know where he lived?  20 A   He lived west of Burns Lake, and I understand  21 sometimes he lived east of Burns Lake in the Perow  22 area, but generally around the Burns Lake area.  I  23 used to normally -- every place I met him was in town  2 4 when I would go to town.  We would bump into one  25 another, usually go have a cup of coffee and tell  26 stories.  27 Q   Now, when you returned, did you return to the -- the  28 family ranch at Ootsa Lake?  29 A   Yes, I did.  30 Q   And can you just describe the -- your occupation  31 and — between 1945 and 1952?  32 A   Yes.  Well, I returned to the family farm, and after I  33 got discharged in November '45 I was delegated by the  34 family to feed the cattle on the family farm, and my  35 brother went into contract logging with one of our  36 neighbours, Alan Blackwell, and everything went fine  37 and I was enjoying myself, taking it easy, feeding the  38 cattle, when Alan Blackwell caught the measles and he  39 had to quit, and so I was delegated then to go and get  40 hold of the wrong end of a cross-cut saw to fall  41 trees, and believe me, that's a lot of work,  42 especially when you're a little bit soft.  So that was  43 my start in the logging business, and from there on I,  44 with my brother, contract logged for a year and a half  45 with the cross-cut saw and a team of horses, and then  46 we finally bought ourselves the first power saw we  47 could get our hands on, which we thought was just 1891?  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 great, and I continued then to contract log right up  2 until 1952.  3 Q   Now, where did you do your contract logging?  4 A   It was -- we got a timber sale east of the ranch about  5 seven miles, and I stayed right up in camp, because I  6 was single at that time, and fed the horses in the  7 early mornings and everything.  My brother was  8 married, so he went back home most nights if the  9 weather permitted.  There was no snowplows, so the  10 only vehicle was my Jeep that I bought as soon as I  11 came out of the army.  12 Q   Was the place where you logged close to Ootsa Lake?  13 A   It was back from Ootsa Lake about two and a half  14 mi1e s.  15 Q   So you were about seven miles east?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And two and a half miles?  18 A   Back.  19 Q   Back, being north?  20 A   North, yes.  21 Q   I understand that your mother died in 1945, shortly  22 before you returned from Europe?  23 A   That's right.  I heard about it the day the war ended.  24 Q   And your father remained at the ranch, I think you  25 said already, until he died?  26 A   That's right.  27 Q   You were married on June 9th, 1948?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And I understand that your book "From Snowshoes to  30 Politics" should be corrected?  31 A   Yes.  My wife reminds me of that very regularly.  32 Q   Now, where -- after your marriage where did you and  33 your wife live?  34 A  We lived on the old ranch at the old Shelford Ranch,  35 and my two brothers moved to Wistaria, where we had  36 bought another three quarters of a section of land,  37 and so they ran that part and my eldest brother and I  38 stayed on the home ranch.  I ran the ranch part and my  39 brother looked after the foxes and mink and caught  40 fish and such like to feed them.  And that lasted  41 for -- went three years, and then my brother left the  42 ranch, he got married and left the ranch and started a  43 store in Burns Lake, and later a second one in Decker  44 Lake.  45 Q   Now, you mentioned the -- I think you mentioned a  46 sawmill, but if you didn't, you and your brother had a  4 7 sawmill? 18919  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 A   Yes, we did.  We contract logged for several years,  2 and the sawmill we were logging for couldn't keep up  3 with our logging, so we decided we'd buy a sawmill  4 ourselves.  So it was one of my first experiences with  5 a bank after I come back from overseas.  I wanted to  6 borrow $750 to buy a sawmill, and they said "You're a  7 poor risk, you've got to have lots of money to go into  8 the sawmill business".  So I went to an oldtime logger  9 that sold ties to the Canadian National Railway, and  10 he said "Oh, $750, we can print that much tomorrow",  11 sort of thing, and he gave it to me, and we paid him  12 back within a month after he gave it to us.  13 Q   Where was your sawmill?  14 A   It was in the same location where I was contract  15 logging in the Richardson Lake area, seven miles east  16 of the ranch.  17 Q   Now, what -- were there particular times of year when  18 you were not logging or not working at the sawmill?  19 A   Oh, yes.  In the spring in that part of the country  20 and in the fall it gets so wet that even horses can  21 hardly move around skidding logs, and so most of our  22 work was done in the wintertime, and the summer we  23 were mainly farming anyway, so it worked pretty well.  24 A lot of the sawmills at that time were cutting  25 railway ties and railway decking for the C.N.R.  2 6 Q   And what were you doing after you returned from the  27 war?  Were you trapping?  28 A   Yes.  I usually would start off early in the season  29 trapping, and after break up started to come I would  30 do some trapping in April and early May.  31 Q   All right.  And you were trapping -- it was still your  32 father's line?  33 A   Yes.  Up until 1951, when he died, and then it was  34 transferred to me.  35 Q   To you?  Now, other than you've described farming in  36 the summer, logging in the sawmill in the winter and  37 some trapping, what other outdoor activities did you  38 do after you returned in '45?  39 A   I don't think anything other than that, except in  40 hunting and fishing, of course, for leisure, mainly.  41 I joined the -- naturally, being a rancher, at that  42 time I joined the Farmers' Institute and was soon a  43 director of the Farmers' Institute.  My uncle was  44 secretary-manager, and so we made visits to Victoria  45 every year to present the Farmers' Institute position  46 to the cabinet.  They met with the cabinet every year,  47 and we all -- we had district A,B,C,D Farmers' 18920  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Institute in different areas around the province, and  2 at each end they'd each send one delegate to meet with  3 the cabinet.  4 Q   What district were you in?  5 A   District B, which included from Burns Lake to the  6 Queen Charlotte Islands.  District C was Prince George  7 east to McBride, District J was up in the Peace River  8 region.  It was quite an interesting organization,  9 because there was so many different lines of  10 agriculture involved, from the grain farmers in the  11 Peace River to the apple growers of the Okanagan, and  12 vegetable growers of the Fraser Valley, and of course  13 the cattle growers of Kamloops, Williams Lake area and  14 Bulkley Valley.  They were an interesting  15 organization.  They're still around today.  16 Q   Did -- was that your first experience going to  17 Victoria and speaking to government?  18 A   Yeah.  My uncle went as a delegate, I didn't go on  19 that.  20 Q   All right.  Now, after you returned from the war, what  21 can you say about Jimmy Andrews, Mathew Sam, and the  22 Morrises in terms of what you described of their life  23 before the war and after the war when you came back?  24 A   I don't think their life-style changed really that  25 much.  They still trapped in the winters, and fished  26 and that and hunted during the summer-time, and  27 sometimes they would move to Burns Lake for a holiday  28 for a week, ten days, sometimes a little bit more, but  29 I don't think they really changed that much until the  30 flooding of Ootsa Lake came along.  31 Q   So when you came back from the war Jimmy Andrews was  32 still on Ootsa Lake?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And you still visited him?  35 A   Oh, yes.  He would come and work in the forest once in  3 6 a while.  37 Q   And what kind of work did he do?  38 A   One of the things he did, we decided we were going to  39 raise beaver, because the beaver population went down  40 to practically nothing, and so finally we found a pair  41 of beaver from a farmer about 25 miles east of our  42 ranch, and so we went down there and caught two of  43 these beaver and brought them back and put them in a  44 pond we were trying to make, and they did real well,  45 and in order -- we wanted to keep them there so that  46 we could raise pelts and have a regular beaver farm,  47 and so we had Jimmy Andrew help dig a ditch around an 18921  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 80-acre swamp, and that was quite some job because of  2 the roots and everything in the ground, had to carry  3 an axe and a sharp pick, and it was a real big job,  4 and Jimmy Andrew worked all summer for us on that,  5 along with us.  We worked right with him.  That was  6 part of our job when we weren't doing our school work,  7 like on Saturdays and after school.  8 Q   Was this before the war or after?  9 A   That was just before the war.  10 Q   All right.  And that's -- you brought, though -- the  11 beaver you brought in before the war?  12 A   Yes, just before.  13 Q   All right.  Now, after the war did -- was Jimmy  14 Andrews doing any work for you or for your father?  15 A   He came in sometimes helping us haying.  16 Q   I take it Mathew Sam was still living in Francois  17 Lake?  18 A   Still at the head of Francois Lake.  We didn't see him  19 quite as often after the war, because by that time we  2 0 were going more to Burns Lake and we would go down  21 Ootsa Lake and across to Francois Lake and across the  22 ferry rather than going around the head of the lake  23 where Mathew Sam lived, because the road was so bad  24 that you would get stuck most of the time going  25 through it.  26 Q   You mentioned the Morrises.  Were they still, when you  27 returned from the war, coming too?  28 A   Yes.  They were still doing their trapping and  29 travelling through our ranch.  30 Q   Were there -- between 1945 and 1952 were there other  31 native Indians that you met or knew of in the area, in  32 the Ootsa Lake area?  33 A   No.  Except in picnics such like we would see some of  34 them there, but otherwise, no.  35 Q   Any people working at the sawmills or --  36 A   There was quite a number of native Indians worked in  37 sawmills in the area.  There was 81 sawmills south of  38 Francois Lake.  There were mainly two-, three-,  39 four-men mills, and they brought the standard of  40 living in that country up a great deal, because rather  41 than even the native Indians relying on trapping  42 alone, they were moved into the sawmill field as  43 fallers, skidders, working in the mill itself, and  44 soon you saw a lot more brand new pickups around the  45 country, and it certainly helped a great deal.  It was  46 the greatest change really in that part of the  47 country, was when the sawmill -- little sawmills 18922  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 started to move in.  2 MR. WILLMS:  Now, the —  3 THE COURT:  Was that 81 south of Francois Lake?  4 A   Yes.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  6 A   I think there's three today.  7 MR. WILLMS:  8 Q   And by that you mean between Francois Lake and Ootsa  9 Lake?  10 A   That's right.  There was over five hundred in the  11 Prince George district.  12 Q   Now, in the period '45 to '52, do you recall any  13 change in beaver trapping, for example, compared to  14 before the war?  15 A   Yes, because there was a -- a lot of difference  16 between after we got our beaver in the pond and prices  17 dropped to nothing, and you could get them five  18 dollars for a real big beaver, so the beaver  19 multiplied like mad, because one other fellow, Alfred  20 Harrison, brought some beaver into the area to  21 populate the area, and so between our beaver and his  22 beaver and the few that were left on Jimmy Andrews'  23 line, they spread out over that country so fast you  24 wouldn't believe it.  25 Q   And you mentioned the price of beaver.  How did that  26 price compare to previous prices?  27 A   Prior to that, beaver average price was normally  28 around $35, $40, and it dropped right down, same as  2 9 foxes, mink.  That's when we went out of the fox and  30 mink business, because you couldn't get more than five  31 dollars for a silver fox and three dollars for a mink.  32 Our foxes originally come from Queen Charlotte Island  33 or Prince Edward Island.  34 Q   Now, in respect of -- and I think in particular beaver  35 trapping, was there an occasion where you were  36 involved in showing beaver trapping to any native  37 Indian?  38 A   It was quite interesting, because with so few beaver  39 in the area, of course Jimmy Andrew really had no  40 reason to show his kids how to trap beaver because  41 there wasn't any beaver to trap of any consequence,  42 and so his son Alec -- when I came back from overseas  43 and the beaver started getting plentiful, Alec, who  44 was still quite a young fellow, he decided he wanted  45 to know how to trap beaver, and so anyway, he was  46 camped around our ranch area, and so I showed him how  47 to catch beaver.  It's -- it just shows how easy some 18923  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 of these things that is really common knowledge among  2 a community can easily be lost.  They certainly showed  3 me more than I showed them, I have to say that, like  4 Jimmy Andrew.  5 Q   Now, both pre- and post-war up to 1952 in the  6 occasions when you were out on the trapline, on your  7 father's trapline in the winter, did you ever see  8 anyone else on that trapline or any evidence that  9 someone else had been on the trapline other than your  10 brothers or your father?  11 A   No.  And it's easy to tell that they weren't there,  12 because when there's snow on the ground, as I always  13 say, the snow tells the story far better than any  14 human being can.  15 Q   And I think you described a bit of this earlier when  16 you were talking about the difficulties in the winter  17 of travelling with the snow on the ground, but were  18 there periods of time of the year when it was  19 extremely difficult if not impossible for you to get  20 to particular areas on the trapline?  21 A   Normally in the end of November and December is rough  22 travelling, because you get very heavy falls of snow  23 and it's loose snow, so when you're even on good  24 snowshoes you still go down pretty deep in the snow  25 and it's tough tracking.  Once you get a bit of a  26 crust on the snow later in the winter and the snow  27 packs, it's very easy to move around on snowshoes.  28 Q   Now, both when you returned from the war -- I take it  29 there was a road, and the road you described driving  30 up the stump road, there was a road to your -- the  31 family farm on Ootsa Lake?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Where did the road go from there?  34 A   It ended right there.  The only -- our road branched  35 off the road that turned and went over to the head of  36 Francois Lake, and that was purely just a wagon road.  37 Q   Mm-hmm.  When was the first time that there was a road  38 put in from the family farm to the west?  39 A  Around the time I left -- just before I left the farm  40 in 1967 Eurocan came in and asked permission to put a  41 road through the family farm, which I granted, and  42 then they built roads out to Andrew Bay and put branch  43 roads up on top of Shelford Hills and through that  44 whole country.  45 Q   I'll come back to that.  But was -- prior to that road  46 going in, and in particular in the pre-1952 period,  47 was there logging taking place to the west of your -- 18924  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 the family farm on Ootsa Lake?  2 A   No, no.  There was no logging at that time.  That came  3 later.  4 Q   All right.  But you would describe the 81 sawmills,  5 they were between Francois Lake and Ootsa Lake?  6 A   They were scattered along between Wistaria, down Ootsa  7 Lake and over through Grassy Plains, Tatalrose and  8 over to Southbank, and some of it would be five or six  9 miles from the road and some of it would be  10 practically right on the road.  11 Q   Now, before 1952 did you know the Grainger family?  12 A  Very well.  13 Q   And do you remember all of their names?  14 A   Oh, yes.  There's -- there was mom and dad -- Mr. and  15 Mrs. Grainger, and then there was Martin, Kay, Barry  16 and Barbara.  17 Q   All right.  And you know that Barbara then became  18 Barbara Peden a little later?  19 A   Yes, later on.  20 Q   All right.  And you also did -- did you, when you were  21 on your cattle drives or any other times, spend time  22 with the Graingers?  23 A  We spent quite a lot of time, especially in later  24 years, because I used to go hunting ducks and geese  25 with them, and we would go over to their place and  26 have dinner once in awhile.  So we were really fairly  27 close, even though we were eight or nine miles apart,  28 or a little more than that apart.  2 9 Q   And did you know whether any one of them had a  30 trapline?  31 A   Yes.  I knew Barry had a trapline, because I used to  32 discuss trapping with him, but we never went out with  33 each other trapping.  34 Q   Did you -- you mentioned duck hunting with a Grainger.  35 Did you do any other hunting with a Grainger?  36 A   Yes.  We would go out hunting deer once in a while,  37 and sort of like a Sunday outing, and he would come  38 over and we would go hunting for awhile and didn't  39 care too much whether we got one or didn't, and they  40 would stay for dinner and have a few beers and  41 generally enjoy ourselves.  42 Q   After the war up to 1952 were you hunting with Jimmy  4 3 Andrew?  44 A  After the war?  45 Q   Or his family?  46 A   I would say no.  I don't think I  fished -- or hunted  47 with Jimmy after the war, but I fished with Jimmy 18925  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 several times.  2 Q   After the war?  3 A  Always through the ice in the wintertime.  4 Q   How about the family?  You said they had eight  5 children.  Do you remember how many were still there  6 after the war?  7 A   I went -- after the war I would think they were all  8 there.  It was about that time that Tony would be  9 leaving, and I think he went out and worked in the  10 sawmill, and Alec, he went truck driving, and Peter,  11 he was certainly involved in the forest industry  12 fairly quickly, and so that helped their way of life,  13 of course, the same as it helped ours.  14 Q   How about the daughters, did they go out and work, to  15 your knowledge?  16 A   Not to my knowledge, but I'm not saying they didn't.  17 I just got busier with other things and I guess I  18 didn't see them as much as I did the boys, because  19 they were involved in the forest industry.  2 0 Q   Now, after the war do you remember hunting with Mathew  21 Sam or his family?  22 A   No, I didn't.  23 Q   And in 1952 you became the member of the legislative  24 assembly for the Omineca riding?  25 A   That's right.  26 Q   Maybe can you just describe what it was, if there was  27 something in the community, or something that  28 interested you in becoming or seeking political  29 office?  30 A   Yes, there certainly was.  We were sort of minding our  31 own business doing our thing in the sawmill business,  32 and Alcan came along to flood the Ootsa Lake country,  33 and where I was living on the old ranch it wasn't  34 going to be flooded.  So people came to me and said  35 "Well, you'd know a little about organization, what  36 can we do", and so I advised they get themselves  37 together and elect a chairman and take a delegation to  38 Victoria to protest the granting of the right to flood  39 the area before a settlement had been reached with the  40 population of the area.  And so I arranged the meeting  41 and went to the meeting to tell them how to do it, and  42 they elected me chairman, which I didn't particularly  43 need, and so I led a delegation of five other people  44 to Victoria and met with the Premier and Minister of  45 Lands.  46 Q   What year was this?  47 A   This was in 1951. 18926  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Now, just backing up a minute, in terms of the  2 community meeting and the discussions that you had  3 with people in the community, was it restricted to  4 non-native community or --  5 A   No, no, no.  Just people that wanted to come.  6 Q   And there were native people?  7 A   I believe there was.  I was disappointed, of course,  8 that they all didn't come.  9 Q   All right.  Now, you led the delegation to Victoria,  10 and just generally what then took you into politics?  11 A  And after the government told us there was nothing  12 they could do, they granted the rights to flood us  13 out, and we couldn't do anything with them.  And so I  14 said that if that's all they cared for the average  15 person of British Columbia I would run in the Omineca  16 riding and take it myself if nothing else, and they  17 had a good laugh and asked what political party I  18 belonged to, and I said "I don't belong to any, I vote  19 for people not parties", and they had another laugh.  20 And so I went to see Harold Wench, and I think he had  21 had a bit of a party that day and wasn't his best, and  22 so I ended up meeting W.A.C Bennett, and that's how I  23 got involved in -- I took a bunch of memberships back  24 to Burns Lake and sold them.  25 Q   And what memberships?  26 A   Social Credit memberships.  27 Q   All right.  28 A   I was like the rest of the people of the province at  29 that time, we didn't even know what it was hardly.  We  30 knew we didn't like the other parties.  It didn't make  31 any sense.  When I was in Italy, if we wanted to build  32 a road we built it in a matter of days and weeks and  33 money was always found.  When I come back nothing was  34 happening in the building of roads, and it seemed such  35 madness that you could find money for us to shoot  36 someone we had never seen, and my good friend Jimmy  37 Andrews used to say "What the heck were you doing over  38 there shooting at someone you never seen", and I would  39 say "Well, defending freedom".  He said "Well, we have  40 lots of freedom right here".  And that's interested me  41 in politics and motivated me to come into politics,  42 was my experience in Italy and Sicily to see young  43 people from both sides being shot, for what.  44 Q   All right.  And so you came back and you distributed  45 these cards and how -- do you remember what you ran  46 as?  47 A   I just ran as a Social Credit member, but we didn't 18927  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 have a leader in '52, so we really got elected as  2 independents, and after 19 of us got elected then we  3 elected W.A.C. Bennett as our leader.  4 Q   Now, during the campaign, and maybe if I can just show  5 you Exhibit 46A, which shows the electoral districts,  6 I believe as of 1984, you will see in the lower  7 right-hand portion in green "Omineca Electoral  8 District", and then in yellow, "Skeena Electoral  9 District".  Just starting with the boundary between  10 the electoral districts, is that approximately where  11 the boundary was when you first ran?  12 A  Approximately, yes.  The boundary is just between  13 Smithers and Telkwa on the west, and then it goes to  14 Bentzi on the east, which is west of Prince George,  15 half-way between Prince George and Vanderhoof, and  16 then it went from the south down below the Nechako  17 River, foot of Ootsa Lake, clear through to the Yukon  18 boundary in those days was 56,000 square miles of  19 territory, and the only way to get to some of the  20 areas from Fort St. James, you had to go by riverboat  21 up to the Indian villages of Takla and Drambler(?).  22 Q   So the map that I just pointed you to, Exhibit 46A,  23 the electoral boundaries were different when you were  24 first elected in 1952?  25 A   That's right.  Later on, when North Peace River was  26 put in as a riding, it took the northern part of  27 Omineca into North Peace River, which made sense,  28 because the only way you could get to the northern  29 part of Omineca was drive up to Dawson Creek, Fort St.  30 John, Fort Nelson, and up to Watson Lake up in that  31 part of the country, so it did make sense.  32 Q   Were there, in your first election, native indians  33 that were part of the electorate?  34 A   Oh, yes.  They had only just recently got the right to  35 vote, and like all people that -- in a democracy when  36 they first get something like that they value it a  37 great deal.  Of course we have had it so long we don't  38 value it like we should, but they all came out to meet  39 us, practically -- you would go to a meeting like  40 Stony Creek or Nautley or Stellako, and they would  41 practically all turn out, and I enjoyed very much my  42 meetings with the native people all across the Omineca  43 riding.  They were always very nice to me, they would  44 take me in their motorboat here and there, and it was  45 one of the best parts I would say of my life, was the  46 friendships I was able to build up with these people.  4 7 Q   And did — 1892?  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 A   They were wanting really the same thing that the white  2 people wanted, and they wanted roads, they wanted  3 bridges, they wanted electric power.  There was no  4 electric power in the riding of Omineca when I was  5 elected in 1952.  The only electric power was a diesel  6 generator in Prince George, Vanderhoof, Burns Lake,  7 and Smithers was outside of my riding.  Houston and  8 some of these others didn't even have a diesel  9 generator, we were still on gas lamps, candles, coal  10 oil lamps, and so there was lots of challenges, and it  11 was an exciting time to be there.  12 Q   Did -- were there native people who worked for you  13 during that first campaign?  14 A   Oh, did they ever, yes.  They certainly did.  It was  15 quite often that meetings in like Burns Lake and Fort  16 Fraser, Fort St. James, the majority of the audience  17 would be native Indians.  18 Q   And do you remember the names of any of the people who  19 helped you during that election campaign?  20 A   I certainly remember my good friend Patty Leong at  21 Topley Landing and Jimmy Donald and Michelle Charlie  22 and the Princes at Fort St. James, who I knew so well  23 in the army.  Their dad was one of my stalwart  24 supporters in the Fort St. James area.  25 Q   How about from Burns Lake?  26 A   Frank Tibbets was very helpful and Maxine George at  27 the Nautley Reserve was good, and I have to say they  28 certainly played a very important part in the  29 political field at that time.  30 Q   All right.  Now, the flooding of Ootsa Lake started in  31 1952, and I take it that affected the Andrews family?  32 A   Yes, it did, very much so.  Because I was chairman of  33 the group that was elected by the area to get a fair  34 deal from the Aluminium Company of Canada, and so I  35 wanted to take Jimmy Andrew, naturally as a friend of  36 the family, under my wing, and I was told by Indian  37 Affairs to mind my own business, that was strictly a  38 federal affair.  39 Q   All right.  Did Jimmy Andrew and his family move?  4 0 A   Jimmy Andrew and his family moved when the water  41 started coming up, yes, and they were moved -- the  42 Indian Affairs bought them some land out in the Uncha  43 area, and they moved out there.  44 Q   All right.  Could you mark on the map where the  45 Andrews family -- did you go to where they moved to?  4 6 A   No.  I never did.  47 Q   All right.  Well, so you never did see where? 18929  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 A   Not exact lot they were on, no.  2 THE COURT:  Where was it?  3 A   Uncha Valley, it's east of Southbank on Francois Lake.  4 MR. WILLMS:  5 Q   After —  6 A   But he also spent some of his time even at the head of  7 Francois Lake along where Mathew Sam lived, so they  8 moved around quite a bit after the flood.  9 Q   Did he live at Francois Lake for quite a while?  10 A   He lived at the head of Francois Lake not far from  11 Barry Grainger and then lived close to Mathew Sam.  12 Q   Did you still -- after he moved did you still see  13 Jimmy Andrew from time to time or his family?  14 A   From time to time, but not as much as I did before,  15 because it just wasn't the same as when I was on the  16 ranch, and he would come to the ranch for various  17 things, either to telephone or whatever happened to  18 be, so I did see him.  Like I'd see him in town and  19 sometimes I would see him on the ferry and such like,  20 but I didn't have the same closeness as before that,  21 because we didn't go fishing like we used to.  22 Q   All right.  Did you, either from personal observation  23 or from discussions with Jimmy Andrew, did he continue  24 to hunt and trap?  25 A   Yes.  I'm quite sure he did.  I think he hunted and  26 trapped until he died.  27 Q   He died when?  28 A   I'm not sure of the date, but actually he was killed  29 in an unfortunate dispute with other natives of the  30 area.  31 Q   You don't -- sometime in the -- do you know when he  32 died?  33 A   I would think it would be in the 60's, late 60's or  34 middle 60's, I would think, but I must say I really  35 don't know the exact date.  36 Q   Now, do you either know either from personal knowledge  37 or from discussions with Jimmy Andrews after 1953 know  38 where he hunted?  39 A   He mainly hunted if he was at a place at Uncha Valley  40 he hunted south, mainly south of his location, or if  41 he was up around Mathew Sam's place he would hunt  42 north of there in Crown land north of the reserve  43 area.  44 Q   And in respect of trapping, either from your own  45 observations or from what Jimmy Andrew told you, do  46 you know where he continued to trap after 1953?  47 A   No, I really don't. 18930  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   How long did you -- you inherited your father's  2 trapline at Ootsa Lake?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And how long did you continue to trap that line?  5 A   I trapped it right up until 1968.  And my brother's  6 son-in-law, Klaus and -- he rented it to trap, and my  7 brother and him trapped both my line and my brother's  8 line.  9 Q   Mm-hmm.  And I understand between 1952 and 1968 you  10 were re-elected five times?  11 A   That's right.  12 Q   And in 1968 that's when you became the Minister of  13 Agriculture?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   How was it that you could be a member of the  16 legislative assembly for that period of time and also  17 trap?  How much time did you spend at Ootsa Lake  18 during that period?  19 A  Well, see, in those years the session only lasted from  20 the second week in January until Easter, and it was a  21 good system, I have to say, because members now spend  22 so much time in Victoria they don't have the same  23 closeness to their constituents than they did then,  24 because now the sessions are so long that their  25 constituencies sometimes wonder who their member is,  26 and it's unfortunate, because I know, of course, Jack  27 Kempf quite well in the area I used to represent, and  28 people say to me "Where's my member, you were always  29 around here, how come he isn't here", but the whole  30 system is different to what it was when I was there.  31 Q   All right.  But other than -- so from mid January to  32 Easter I take it you would be in Victoria.  Would you  33 be in Victoria at any other time during the year while  34 you were an M.L.A.?  35 A   Not too often.  You -- there would be some issues come  36 up that I would be required to go to Victoria, but not  37 very often.  Sometimes if there was a delegation, say  38 from any organization, that wanted to go to government  39 and raise heck because they weren't building the roads  40 fast enough or rural electrification fast enough, they  41 would say they would like to go to Victoria, could you  42 arrange a meeting with the Premier or minister  43 concerned.  So I did go occasionally, but it wasn't  44 very often really.  45 Q   During the period while you were an M.L.A. before you  46 became a cabinet minister in 1968, how often did you  47 travel through the Omineca riding? 18931  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 A   I used to make a point of always travelling once  2 before the session so that I could find out what the  3 problem areas were, and then I would make another trip  4 around after the session to explain what had happened  5 for anyone that was interested.  I was always  6 dissapointed that there wasn't as many people turn out  7 as should have turned out to find out what their  8 member was doing, even though they were only paying us  9 $2,800 a year in those days.  I thought they should  10 come out and find out what we were doing for them.  11 Q   All right.  In your -- in these pre-travel --  12 pre-session and post-session travels would you just go  13 to the major communities, or where would you --  14 A   I would go mainly to the major communities, but I  15 would -- while I was say in Vanderhoof, I would go out  16 to Stony Creek in the daytime and talk to the chief or  17 whoever was interested in talking to me about  18 problems, usually how to -- when are we going to get  19 hydro power into the reserve, which was a very  20 legitimate question, and so if someone asked me that  21 I've got a problem at Stony Creek or I've got a  22 problem up Takla Landing, I would make an attempt to  23 get there.  24 Q   Did you attend at native villages as well?  25 A   Yes, yes.  Anytime that I was asked to go and it was  26 possible to arrange a meeting time I would go.  If  27 not, I would meet with individuals that had a  28 particular problem.  29 Q   What names did you know for groups of Indians in the  30 area of the various villages at that time?  31 A  Well, I mean at that time it was just like the Burns  32 Lake band, the Babine band, the Stillako band, the  33 Nautley band, the Fort St. James, Stony Creek.  That  34 was the only names that I knew of.  35 Q   All right.  How about Grassy Plains?  36 A   Grassy Plains.  Well, I was there regularly, of  37 course, because I went by there every time I went to  38 other areas, unless I cut across by the head of  39 Francois Lake and over to Houston and joined the  40 Morice River Road.  41 Q   Did you know of a name for the group of people living  42 at Grassy Plains?  43 A   Just Grassy Plains is all that I was aware of.  44 Q   And Drummond Lake?  45 A   The same thing.  46 Q   There have been Indian names mentioned at this trial.  47 Did you hear the name Carrier in that period, '52 to 18932  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 '68?  2 A   The Carrier Indian name of course was well known  3 during that period and no doubt before, Carrier was,  4 but —  5 Q   What did you understand that it meant?  6 A   Not really.  7 Q   Did you understand anything about what it meant?  8 A   No.  I knew it was a name for a group of Indians in  9 that particular area, that's really all I really knew.  10 And as far as representing the area, we never looked  11 on anyone as native or white, it was people with  12 problems, and of course that's the way it should be  13 too.  14 Q   Now, in that period, '52 to '68, had you heard the  15 name Wet'suwet'en?  16 A   No.  17 Q   All right.  Had you heard --  18 A   I never heard of that until very recently really.  19 Q   Had you heard the name Gitksan?  20 A   No, not until certainly after the '75 election --  21 certainly then I heard about it.  22 Q   In the 1952 to 1968 period what -- did you hear or do  23 you remember names of clans or houses?  24 A   No.  25 Q   In that period, and I shouldn't just say 1952 to 1968,  26 because you were a member until 1972 of the area, so  27 but in that 20-year period did you hear the name or  28 title "chief" being used in relation to people in the  29 area?  30 A   Oh, chief, yes.  That was very commonly used.  31 Q   All right.  And do you remember names of any chiefs  32 that you knew or heard that were chiefs?  33 A   I knew chief Pat Leong and Chief Tibbets and Maxine  34 George at Nautley, and Prince at Fort St. James, yes.  35 I knew some of them, because that's quite a long way  36 back, and my memory is not always -- on names is not  37 the swiftest.  38 Q   And what was your understanding at the time of what  39 they were chief of?  40 A   Of that particular band.  41 Q   In your travels in the 1952 to 1972 period in Omineca,  42 I take it you came to know a number of people in the  43 riding, you met people in the riding?  44 A   Yes.  I got to know a lot of people.  That was one of  45 the nicest parts about being in politics, was the nice  46 people you met.  I have to -- you met some of course  47 you wish you hadn't, but the majority of people, if 18933  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 you treated them as such, they're nice people.  2 Q   Right.  And do you know from the -- from that period  3 of time approximately how many of your constituents or  4 of the electorate were native versus non-native?  5 A   I would guess, and it would be a guess, but I would  6 say it would be roughly a quarter, but again I must  7 stress that we didn't look on people as natives or  8 whites.  It was -- they were just people, and that was  9 what I lived with during my years in the army, and I  10 liked it that way, and I think all of us as Canadians  11 should like it that way.  12 Q   I take it that you had from constituents, and I'm not  13 drawing any distinction between native and non-native,  14 you had letters from constituents during that period  15 about certain concerns that they had?  16 A   Hundreds.  But I did -- I did get involved with so  17 many issues during my time as a member, like the  18 gasoline inquiry and rural electrification.  At one  19 time I counted my letters and I found that 85 percent  20 of all my letters came from people outside of the  21 Omineca riding:  Vancouver, Vancouver Island,  22 Kootenays, Okanagan, because they were interested in  23 some of the issues that I was taking up before the  24 legislature.  25 Q   What did you do with the letters that you received  26 from constituents?  27 A   I tried to answer all of them.  I don't say I  28 always -- no doubt someone would be able to say "You  29 didn't answer my letter", but if I didn't it was by  30 accident, because normally I took a letter,  31 acknowledged that I had got the letter, and then I  32 would go through the Ministry, whether it be Forests  33 or Hydro or whoever it happened to be, and I would say  34 what the information on this particular issue, because  35 I want to reply to Mr. so and so in Skeena Crossing or  36 wherever it happened to be.  37 Q   And do you remember what happened; do you still have  38 those letters?  39 A   No.  When I -- when I left government when I was  40 defeated in 1972 I was one of the few I guess that  41 stayed behind and met with the new minister, who was  42 Dave Stupich of the N.D.P. and said "Now, all of my  43 files are intact on various issues, and I would like  44 to -- I will leave these with you in this office  45 because when I -- you're dealing with getting a power  46 line into the Kispiox or into Stony Creek", some of  47 the letters are useful for the next person and to get 18934  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 the project moving.  2 Q   All right.  He was the Minister of Agriculture?  3 A   He was the Minister of Agriculture, yes.  4 Q   Were those the M.L.A. files you left with him?  5 A   I left everything.  6 Q   Omineca M.L.A. files?  7 A   I left him there.  I told my secretary, who -- she  8 left right away after I left -- that they might be  9 useful to the new member of Omineca, and if they  10 were -- feel free to pass them on because it was  11 nothing secretive and shouldn't be.  Letters that are  12 addressed to members should be used no matter what  13 party happens to be there.  14 Q   Okay.  Did you in respect -- and this is just based on  15 your general recollection, were there any -- and I  16 know you've said from time to time that you looked on  17 your constituents as constituents, native or  18 non-native, were there any different issues raised in  19 letters from native constituents different from those  20 raised by non-native constituents?  21 A   Generally, no.  The only thing that might be extra  22 would be housing was always a greater problem in the  23 native villages than it was outside, and most of the  24 issues such as that I would acknowledge the letter and  25 say that I would communicate with the people in -- the  26 member in Ottawa, and they should receive a reply  27 direct from the member, which I think they did in most  28 occasions.  I would hope, and I also would mention  29 that if you don't get any satisfaction be sure and  30 write me back.  31 Q   Now, in terms of general concerns, what -- from your  32 members, from the constituents in Omineca, what areas  33 were -- you mentioned electrification and roads?  34 A   They were two of the main ones.  Of course telephones  35 would come into it as one of the important ones.  Some  36 would have problems with getting timber sales, some at  37 that time wanting to move off the reserve and get  38 Crown land, for instance.  So there was a variety of  39 problem areas that people wanted information on.  Some  40 wanted to know how to organize say 4H clubs for young  41 people who -- what organizations were available like  42 the Farmers' Institute, what could they do for you.  43 Q   Were there letters about land uses, logging?  44 A   Yes.  There was land usage.  Certainly quite a few  45 trapline owners would write and say the clear cut in  46 my particular area is affecting my trapline, and I  47 would take it up with the trapping division of 18935  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 recreation and conservation, it was at that time, and  2 now it's under the environment department.  3 Q   Now, did you in respect of the letters from  4 constituents on road, on electrification, and you just  5 mentioned the trapline or the other issues, did they  6 break down on native/non-native lines?  7 A   Not really.  I think they took a very reasonable  8 approach.  They addressed the problem rather than  9 getting to those kind of issues.  It's surprising how  10 straightforward most people are when they have a  11 problem.  They will go to their member and they say "I  12 want electricity, what do you want to do about it",  13 and that's the way it should be.  14 Q   And in terms of the source of the complaint, did the  15 sources break down?  In other words, were you getting  16 more of a particular kind of complaint, like  17 electrification and road from some constituents,  18 non-native than native or --  19 A   No.  It would break down about even.  I think the only  20 place -- later on in my time in office of course we  21 got electricity to places like Vanderhoof and Fort  22 Fraser and Burns Lake and Houston and Telkwa, so you  23 wouldn't get any letters from those areas about  24 electricity, because they already had it, and so then  25 you would get more letters saying "Well, the power  26 comes to Vanderhoof, I live four miles south, why  27 can't I get power".  So I would write back to him and  28 say "Okay, give me a sketch map of the places along  29 the road, and if there's more than three per mile I  30 can take it to Hydro, and likely we will be able to  31 get a power line", so -- and if you didn't have anyone  32 for seven miles and you had a little village say like  33 Stony Creek, then your chance of getting power were  34 really very good.  35 Q   By the way, when did power reach the ranch on Ootsa  36 Lake?  37 A   It never did reach the ranch while I was there.  I  38 sold the ranch before power came into the Ootsa Lake  39 country, and I was Minister of Agriculture and I was  40 able to persuade Hydro that there should be power into  41 areas such as this because it was X number of people  42 per mile, and it was the head of some areas they were  43 looking at, so every member tries to make the best  44 case he can for the people of his area, and if he's  45 strong enough and can present a good case, normally he  46 gets power to those particular areas.  47 MR. WILLMS:  Perhaps we can take the afternoon adjournment, my 18936  CM. Shelford (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 lord.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 (AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN AT 3:00)  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings herein transcribed to the  9 best of my skill and ability  10  11  12  13    14 Graham D. Parker  15 Official Reporter  16 United Reporting Service Ltd.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18937  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  4 MR. WILLMS:  My lord.  5 Q   Now, you -- while you were an MLA between 1952 and  6 1972 you continued to farm at Ootsa Lake?  7 A   Yes, I did.  8 Q   And did you continue to trap?  9 A   Yes.  In the early part of the winter and sometimes in  10 the spring.  11 Q   And that was on the trapline you had inherited from  12 your father?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   What other work did you do in addition to farming,  15 trapping and being an MLA?  16 A  Well, I ran a guiding outfit in the fall between when  17 season started in September through to -- it used to  18 go to December 15, but later on the season was cut  19 back and cut back and now it's back to about the end  20 of October I believe, which had to be.  21 Q   Were you a guide outfitter or were you on --  22 A   No.  I was just working with a guide outfitter.  23 Q   And who did you -- and maybe if you can just have  24 reference to Exhibit 55C.  Who was it that you guided  25 for?  26 A  Allen Blackwell.  27 Q   That's A. E. Blackwell in the lower middle portion?  28 A   Yes.  This map is not the same map, same area as when  29 I guided with and he went a way back into over here at  30 that time.  31 Q   You are pointing south off the map?  32 A   That's right.  33 Q   Right.  34 A  And then I guided with Stanley Blackwell later on.  35 Q   And that's S. Blackwell in the lower left-hand portion  36 with the number eight?  37 A   That's right.  38 Q   And you notice his area comes right through to the  39 ranch area.  40 A   This very thin line through here comes through to  41 here.  42 Q   Now, did you guide for anyone else or guide in any  43 other areas?  44 A   No.  No.  I was a full partner with Stanley Blackwell  45 and the name of the guiding area was in his name.  46 Q   Did you -- now, there are some other names, J. R.  47 Gourdeau with a nine in front of it.  Did you know Mr. 1893?  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 Gourdeau?  2 A   I knew him quite well.  In the summertime we usually  3 drive up to the road to Gale Lake where he has cabins  4 and have a coffee with him and that's all.  I never  5 guided with him.  6 Q   And over to the right, lower right in the middle  7 number ten, H. S. Cowan.  Did you know him?  8 A  Very well.  He was in the same unit as I was in Sicily  9 in Italy.  10 Q   And you knew him as guide outfitter?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And also just above him, number 15, H. H. Thorn?  13 A   I know him too.  14 Q   Do you remember what his first name was?  15 A   Harold.  16 Q   And then there is down -- working down, number four,  17 J. R. Comeau?  18 A   I don't know him.  19 Q   A. J. Van Tine, V-a-n-T-i-n-e?  2 0 A  Van Tine.  21 Q   Van Tine?  22 A   Yes.  He was brought up on the Ootsa Lake there, a  23 very large family, and I know his family very well.  24 Q   The name right now is B. Peden.  You have already said  25 you know Barbara Peden?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Did you know who guided there before or who had that  28 territory before?  29 A   No, I don't really  30 Q   And then W. Barnett?  31 A   Yes, I know the Barnett family.  They had a farm  32 between Topley and Smithers -- or Houston, but I don't  33 know anything more about it than that.  I bought a  34 horse from him at one time.  35 Q   Were you aware, and by aware I mean did you have  36 personal knowledge of any native Indian guides in  37 either the areas where you have guided or the adjacent  38 areas?  39 A  Well, there was two native Indians working with Allen  40 Blackwell as guides.  Donald Jack and Charlie Michell  41 from the foot of Ootsa Lake.  They are both good  42 guides too.  43 Q   Charlie Michell was from Ootsa Lake.  Was Donald Jack  44 from Ootsa Lake as well?  45 A   He was from Grassy Plains.  4 6 Q   And you talked with them from time to time?  47 A   Oh, yes.  Any time I see them in town we usually talk 18939  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 to them and I don't see much as with Michell.  He's  2 gone up in years now and I don't see him as much as I  3 used to.  4 Q   Now, during the discussions with them about their  5 guiding, did you talk to them about their hunting,  6 whether they hunted themselves?  7 MR. GRANT:  Well, I am not sure there maybe something here.  All  8 I have is that he -- the witness sees them in town and  9 talks to them.  He hasn't raised anything that he's  10 talked to them about their guiding or their other  11 activities.  My friend maybe can lay a groundwork for  12 that.  13 MR. WILLMS:  I thought I did, but I will try it —  14 Q   Did you talk to Donald Jack or Charlie Michell about  15 guiding?  16 A   Only just memories of camping out on the mountain in  17 the snow storm.  That sort of thing.  Otherwise no.  18 Q   All right.  But they did talk to you about that?  19 A   Yes.  Yes.  20 Q   And they talked to you about them doing guiding work?  21 A   Yes.  They enjoyed, of course, friendship we had  22 together as guides and the good times and the bad  23 times we had at packing over the mountains, because  24 we -- we were packing close to 35 miles from the boat  25 landing.  We went, took the horses across in a scow  2 6 and then packed them up and went over three mountains,  27 Mount Wells, Tweedsmuir, Machele and over into the  28 lakes below Machele Mountain.  And so you get to know  29 people pretty well when you are with them day and  30 night in snow storms and good times.  31 Q   Were you -- did you guide with them?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Did you ever hunt with them?  34 A   No.  35 Q   Did they ever talk to you about their hunting?  36 A   Only to say that they figured they were pretty good  37 hunters.  Same as most people think they are good  38 hunters even if they are not.  They likely were good  39 hunters.  They were certainly good guides, so they  40 must have been good hunters.  41 Q   Was there a point in the period '52 to '72 when you  42 stopped guiding?  43 A   It would be '54 roughly when I -- it was '54 when I  44 started guiding for Allen Blackwell and before that I  45 might just take someone out, come to the ranch and I  4 6 would take them out from there. But when I was with  47 Allen Blackwell I used to stay out for two months at a 18940  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  MR. GRANT:  29  A  30  MR. WILLMS  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  time.  I'd go across to the far camp area and then  Allen would fly hunters in from -- for the next trip.  The first trip they would go over the mountain on pack  horse and saddle horse.  What were you hunting?  Hunted mainly caribou, grizzly bear and moose.  Some  black bear.  Oh, and goats.  Yes.  We hunted goats  too.  Now, you started in 1954.  Was there a time when you  stopped guiding?  No.  I guided every fall and right through to '68.  To '68?  Yeah.  When you became a minister of -- the Minister of  Agriculture?  That's right.  How about trapping, was there a time when you stopped  trapping?  No.  I trapped some every year right through till '68.  And in '68 did you do -- what did you do with the  trapline?  Did you --  Well, I just rented it out to Claussen and him and my  brother trapped it.  From '68?  '68 till I sold it to Gary Blackwell.  And when did you sell it to Gary?  '60 -- or '85.  '83.  '85.  Yes, '85.  Who did you sell it to?  Gary Blackwell.  Was there a time when you moved off or sold the farm  at Ootsa Lake?  Was there a what?  When -- did you -- was there a time when you moved  away from or sold --  Yeah.  I sold the farm in 1968 when I joined the  Cabinet.  We -- my wife stayed there.  I was appointed  in May of '68 and my wife stayed there till after the  summer holidays and then we moved to Victoria.  Now, in the period '52 to '72 can you describe some of  the industrial development in the Shelford Hills/Ootsa  Lake region?  There was really no development until '67 is when  Eurocan started to come in.  And you've described that earlier.  That's when the  logging started to the west of where the farm was in  Ootsa Lake? 18941  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  MR.  GRANT  32  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  WILLM  45  Q  46  47  Yes.  And did you during that period visit any of the  logging areas or sawmills in the area?  Oh, I visited the logging areas every year because I  wanted to see what they were doing, whether they were  planting trees, and I have to say Eurocan did a very  good job of planting trees as soon as they cut them --  cut the old growth.  And there was a good new growth  growing in the area, so I go and take a look at it  every year and see how it's coming along.  And if  there are new areas logging, had they been planted.  And I would say it's one of the best examples in the  province is the Eurocan area west of my ranch.  They  may have known that I was watching it, because I was  chairman of the forestry committee for seven years  when I was in the legislature.  And do you know the areas that you have been watching  I take it up to the recent times?  Yes.  I was out there last year and the year before  too.  I go out every year.  Do you know how it was logged the first time?  Were  you there?  Yes.  And I had three nephews that were working on it  besides.  It was clear cut.  Now, in the logging in the area and in the sawmills in  the area, what can you say about employment of native  people during the '52 to '72 period --  Oh, it was --  -- from your personal knowledge?  They were -- there was a lot --  :  Well, now, my lord, I just wonder -- I mean there  has been no evidence about -- from this witness of him  working in the sawmills or anything else.  I am not  certain -- my friend tries to cover his question by  saying from his personal knowledge.  :  I assume that he means either worked there or he  walked by and saw it.  :  That's what I assumed too, but I'm not -- there is  no groundwork for that.  And if the witness  understands clearly it's from his own observations,  then that's fine.  I'd like to know how he knows.  Maybe something he was told.  :  Mr. Willms.  Well, either based on your employment of native people  while you owned the sawmill that you gave evidence  about earlier today or during the personal 18942  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 observations of either logging in the area or sawmills  2 that you visited in the area, what can you say about  3 native employment in either logging or the sawmills  4 between 1952 and 1972?  5 A  Well, next door to where I had -- my brother had the  6 sawmill, Allen Blackwell had his sawmill and he  7 employed two natives and then my brother-in-law, he  8 ran a larger sawmill of about eight or ten people and  9 he had two or three natives pretty well all the time  10 he was sawing in that area.  11 Q   All right.  And did you observe the types of  12 occupations that native people were engaged in in that  13 period?  14 A   They were really engaged in pretty well all areas  15 right from falling to bucking, to skidding, to sawmill  16 work, carrying slabs or whatever.  So they were -- it  17 was no different to white people that were hired.  18 There was some excellent fallers and excellent  19 skidders and some good, some bad, like everyone else.  20 Q   In respect -- and this is from your personal knowledge  21 again of the development that you saw in the area  22 between 1952 and 1972.  Can you describe other land  23 development in the Ootsa Lake/Shelford Hills, the area  24 between Francois Lake and Ootsa Lake in that period?  25 A  Well, I think we dealt with the flood in the Ootsa  26 Lake by the alcan company.  That was one of the major  27 changes in land use in that particular area.  There  28 was no mines in that particular area even though there  29 was a lot of interest and staking and such like, but  30 there was none ever developed into a mine and so that  31 pretty well covers it, I think.  32 Q   Farms?  33 A   Farms.  After the flooding there was less farming  34 because there was less good land available.  Good land  35 was mainly flooded.  Like we lost 1800 acres of real  36 good land.  That's under 140 feet of water now.  Then  37 we lost a half section at the head of Ootsa Lake which  38 was also excellent hay land.  39 Q   How about ranching?  40 A  Well, I should have said ranching.  I guess I said  41 farming.  Because it's mainly ranching in that area.  42 There are a few grow grain, but it's only just to feed  43 their cattle.  It's pretty well all used.  44 Q   Now, from your own personal observations in the area  45 1952 to 1972, what can you say about employment of any  46 native people other than the forest industry, other  47 industries? 18943  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 A   There was quite a number were employed, like up at  2 Granisle Mines and Bell Copper Mines on the Babine  3 Lake.  There was quite a number of natives that were  4 working up there.  And in the very early years there  5 was some working in the mines up by Fort St. James.  6 And also at the mine, Endako the molybdenum mine.  7 Q   Any other industry or employment?  8 A   Not that I can think of.  Of course some of them are  9 hired by the Department of Highways and some are used  10 on telephone hydro crews.  Pretty well -- during that  11 period of time from '52 to '72 anyone that wanted to  12 work could find work in that area.  It was a good time  13 for people that were looking for employment and quite  14 a few came from various parts of the country because  15 there was opportunity.  That's not true today.  16 Q   In that period 1952 to 1972 in the Omineca riding, can  17 you estimate about how many of the native constituents  18 of your riding you would talk to each year?  19 A   I would -- I would think in a year likely I'd speak to  20 certainly a third of them.  Either at picnics or  21 meetings or at visits to various areas.  I'd meet an  22 awful lot during a year.  23 Q   Now, you've already given evidence about 1968 and  24 certain things happening, renting the trapline,  25 selling the farm.  When you became Minister of  26 Agriculture did that affect the amount of time that  27 you could spend at Omineca?  28 A   Yes, it did a great deal, because actually I was  29 responsible for various programs in agriculture and  30 spent a lot of time in other areas of the province and  31 went on trips back to Ottawa to discuss Canadian  32 agricultural development, even international  33 agricultural development.  So it took a lot of my  34 time.  And being a minister is not a plus in politics  35 today where it used to be.  It's a minus now.  36 Q   Now, you moved -- you obtained a residence in  37 Victoria?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And did you continue and do you continue to reside in  40 Victoria?  41 A  When I was defeated in '72 -- I should point out that  42 even as a minister I was only paid $18,000 a year and  43 a skidderman was getting 24 or 26 and my deputy was  44 getting that.  And so I was stone broke when I was  45 defeated after the election campaign.  So I had to  46 sell my house in Victoria in '53 and I moved to  47 Terrace. 18944  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  MR. GRANT:  29  A  30  MR. WILLMS  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  You mean '73?  '73, yes.  Okay.  Now, just in terms of the time while you were  the Minister of Agriculture from '68 to '72, about how  much time during the year would you be able to spend  or did you spend in Omineca?  I still made my two trips a year, once before a  session and once after.  And then I would spend at  least a month up in the area in the summertime as sort  of a break to get my thinking together on what I was  going to do when I got back to Victoria.  That's  something that's very important in public life today  is to have enough time to deeply think about what you  are going to do in the future.  It's too easy just to  bandaid various issues and not get at the roots of  them.  Now, I understand that in -- was it in 1970 that you  purchased another place close to Francois Lake?  Yes.  I purchased two and a half acres of land.  It  was the lease my brother owned, a grazing lease, and  he released two and a half acres and I bought -- well,  I got a lease on that.  Later bought.  And I wonder if you could just mark with a five and a  circle around it on Exhibit 55C where you -- where  that location, the two and a half acres on Francois  Lake was.  Right about here.  What number is it again?  Did you want it marked.  Number five.  Number five.  Right.  And you are on the north shore of Francois  Lake?  Yes.  Here's the ferry landing right off there.  Between the west end and the ferry landing?  Yes.  How far was that from -- that was east of Noralee?  Yes.  Quite a bit east of Noralee.  It would be I  would think eight miles east of Noralee.  Now, during this period did you still know Matthew Sam  or speak to Matthew Sam?  I saw Matthew Sam occasionally right up till he went.  Up to when he died?  When he died, yes.  And do you recall when?  No, I don't. 18945  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   When you moved to the north side of Francois Lake was  2 Matthew Sam still alive?  3 A   He was still alive then.  4 Q   Now, I take it have you owned that piece of property  5 that you have marked with a number five since 1970 and  6 you still own it today?  7 A   Yes -- well, I leased -- I was only able to lease it  8 in the first -- in the first few years because they  9 wouldn't sell recreation property close to the lake.  10 Well, then in '71, '72, in that area the government  11 agreed to sell those kinds of properties to anyone  12 that wanted to buy and I chose to buy it so that I  13 would have a title to it.  14 Q   And since that time?  15 A   Since that time, yes.  16 Q   Now, after your -- and I think you mentioned this a  17 minute ago.  After your defeat in the election of  18 1972, you moved from Victoria and you moved to  19 Terrace?  20 A   That's right.  I went for a very short time to Fort  21 St. James and I was going to take on the job as Town  22 Clerk, but I am -- it wasn't quite the type of work  23 that I was looking for and I had some sort of a  24 medical problem that no one ever figured out what it  25 was, but I collapsed in the snowbank and I had -- a  26 few hours later I woke up and my doctor advised me I  27 better take on something different.  So that was a  28 very short time I was there.  2 9 Q   And —  30 A  And I moved to Terrace and bought a house in Terrace.  31 Q   You were with the Northwest Loggers' Association?  32 A   That's right.  33 Q   What was your position?  34 A   Secretary-manager.  35 Q   Can you describe what the association was and who it  36 was run through?  37 A   It was a group of independent loggers, anywhere from  38 full stump to dump loggers, to small truckers, to  39 skidder operators.  Anyone that had anything to do  40 with the logging industry.  And then we had associate  41 members which consisted of banks, Finning Tractor,  42 other machine companies, trucking companies and such  43 like.  So we had altogether over 200 members or  44 associate members, so it was quite a powerful  45 organization, and I presented the case for the  46 Northwest Loggers to the Pierce Royal Commission.  I  47 had had experience in this area before because I 18946  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 presented a case to the Sloane Commission in 1955.  2 Q   '75?  3 A   '55.  4 Q   All right.  Now, the job with the Northwest Logging  5 Association, did that take -- can did you travel at  6 all or go around the committee?  7 A   I travelled quite a bit.  Part of my job was to go and  8 see if there was problems up at Hazelton, Kitwanga.  9 Occasionally we went up the Nass River.  And I  10 travelled normally about every week to -- oh, and  11 Kitimat, I went through to Kitimat quite a bit,  12 because that was a loading area for logs that were  13 moving out the country.  Which we didn't like,  14 naturally.  15 Q   To your recollection were there any native Indian  16 members of the association?  17 A   I only recall one that was a trucker up at Kitwanga  18 and so that's the only one I recall.  But there was a  19 lot of natives.  I went and visited the sawmills, like  20 Rim Forest Products at Hazelton which was started when  21 I was Minister of Agriculture under the ARDA Project,  22 and the reason for Rim Forest Products was to employ  23 natives in that particular area and it was agreed by  24 the company that developed it that they would hire  25 natives.  And --  26 Q   To your personal observation when you were at Hazelton  27 did they do that?  28 A   Oh, yes, they did.  They had an agreement with the  29 chiefs in that particular area that they would supply  30 so many people, and I think they kept their commitment  31 fully.  32 Q   Now, did you also visit the -- any logging areas or  33 logged areas during this period 1972 to 1975 while you  34 were with the Northwest Logging Association?  35 A   Yes.  I used to do it quite regularly.  I would hop in  36 a truck and go out with them to load their truck and  37 see what was going on in the area, whether there was  38 any tree planting going on, what was going on.  And so  39 I saw most of the areas that were actively logged.  40 But I also drove around to areas that have been  41 previously logged to see whether the trees were  42 growing well and whether the regeneration had  43 happened.  Some was good, some was bad.  44 Q   All right.  In the four logging areas were there  45 logging areas near Hazelton, Kitwanga, Kispiox where  46 you logged areas where you might have visited?  47 A   Yes. 18947  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Or where you visited?  2 A   There was active logging in all of these areas.  It  3 kept getting further and further back from the  4 communities as time went on.  Some of the valleys like  5 the Kalum Valley was pretty well logged out.  See, the  6 tree farm licence was issued in 1951 prior to the  7 Social Credit Government coming into power.  So that's  8 the oldest tree farm licence in the province was Tree  9 Farm Licence No. 1 in Terrace.  10 Q   When you were in -- and I don't know if you are aware  11 of where the claim area is here, but sticking to  12 around Hazelton, Kitwanga, Kispiox, and the logging  13 areas, did you observe the make-up of the labour force  14 in any of the logging areas that you were at?  15 A   Only just in passing through.  I mean I'd stop to take  16 a look or as I say rode up in trucks to see what was  17 going on and it would be quite often that native  18 people were working.  But as to how many I couldn't  19 say.  2 0 Q   And how about driving truck?  21 A   Not too many.  22 Q   Now, in that period do you recall -- you mentioned the  23 word chiefs before.  Do you recall any names in '72 to  24 '75 names of chiefs in that area, Hazelton or --  25 A  Well, I got to know Richard Morgan in Kitwanga really  26 quite well.  They are a very prominent family in  27 Kitwanga.  And he owns a fish boat and very  28 progressive group.  And then I got to know Hubert  29 Maitland in Kitimat Village who I was trying to get  30 him to agree to start a spawning channel in the river  31 that comes into the reserve, but I was very  32 disappointed in my three years in the Skeena riding  33 because politics kept getting in the way of  34 development projects and I thought it was very  35 unfortunate.  In fact, I was glad I was defeated in  36 '79 really.  37 Q   Okay.  Well, we will try to get you elected in 1975.  38 But in the '72 to '75 period you mentioned Richard  39 Morgan.  Did you know what he -- what he was the chief  40 of?  41 A   It was the Kitwanga Band.  That's all I knew him as.  42 Q   And Hubert Maitland?  43 A   Kitimat Band.  44 Q   The Kitimat Band.  Did you know -- was there anyone  45 else that you knew as a chief at that time?  46 A   I knew Alice Maitland really quite well in the Glen  4 7 Vowell. 18948  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   This is before your election in the 1972, '75 period?  2 A   Yes.  I knew --  3 Q   Alice Maitland?  4 A  Alice Maitland.  5 Q   And what did you understand she was the chief of?  6 A   Glen Vowell.  I discussed several times the  7 possibility of starting 4H programs to teach young  8 people public speaking, gardening, home gardening,  9 growing the crops and all of that, because they have  10 got some beautiful land on the Glen Vowell reserve and  11 I thought it would be a good start to help young  12 people to grow gardens and such like.  It's good for  13 all of us.  Some day we may need it.  14 Q   Okay.  Now, in 1975 that name that you -- Alice  15 Maitland.  Do you also recall the name Alice  16 Jefferies?  17 A  Alice Jefferies, I am sorry.  18 Q   Not Alice Maitland?  19 A  Alice Maitland is the Mayor of Hazelton.  20 Q   Thank you.  Now, in 1975 you were elected as the MLA  21 for the Skeena riding?  22 A   That's right.  23 Q   And just once again, if you could draw your attention  24 to Exhibit 46A you'll see that the Skeena Electoral  25 District is outlined in yellow.  Can you say whether  26 or not those were roughly the boundaries of the  27 Electoral District when you were elected?  28 A   Yes.  That's roughly -- I am quite sure it's the same.  29 Q   All right.  Now, you'll see that it tails off on the  30 left and bottom, that is the west and the south of the  31 exhibit.  How far south did the Skeena Electoral  32 District go?  33 A   It went right down to Hartley Bay and Kemano and of  34 course included Kitimat and so it was a fairly large  35 riding but nothing as large as Omineca.  36 Q   And how about to the -- I see it moves off to the  37 west.  How far to the west did the Skeena riding go?  38 A   To the west it goes up past Kalum Lake, which is  39 northwest, I guess it would be, from Terrace and --  40 Q   Did it include Prince Rupert?  41 A   It doesn't go up to the Nass area, of course,  42 Greenville and up in that part of the country, because  43 that's in the Atlin riding or was until recent  44 changes.  45 Q   All right.  But the did it include Prince Rupert?  4 6 A   No.  47 Q   Prince Rupert? 18949  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 A   Prince Rupert and Queen Charlotte Islands was a  2 separate riding.  3 Q   Now, in the Skeena riding were the following  4 settlements: Hazelton, Kispiox, Glen Vowell, Kitwanga,  5 Kitwancool, Kitsegukla and Moricetown?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   I said Glen Vowell, did I?  8 A   Yes, you said Glen Vowell.  9 Q   Did you in '72 campaign -- or '75 did you campaign in  10 these locations?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Among others?  13 A   Yes.  All of them.  I didn't do a very good job  14 obviously, but --  15 Q   Well, in 1975 you —  16 A  Well, I got elected, but I certainly wasn't -- I  17 wasn't elected by the native Indian population.  In  18 the Omineca riding I had strong support, but not in  19 the Skeena riding.  20 Q   All right.  Could you just explain -- how would you  21 know that?  22 A   You just take a look at the polls at Kitwanga or  23 Hazelton or wherever the poll happens to be and you  24 can see quickly how many votes you got.  Skeena  25 Crossing there was the 99 votes and I got one.  In  26 Omineca I used to get a hundred per cent sometimes.  27 So it was quite a difference.  2 8 Q   Yes.  All right.  And in your campaigning during the  29 period campaign did you go and speak with native  30 people at the locations that I mentioned?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And you mentioned Alice Jefferies from Glen Vowell.  33 During your period of time as an MLA to for Skeena  34 1975 to 1979 did you meet and talk with her on a  35 number of occasions?  36 A   Not a great deal, but I met her on several occasions.  37 And again we discussed the possibility of agricultural  38 development and such like in those areas.  Because I  39 feel strongly that anyone that deals with agriculture  40 usually feels they have a feeling to the land and I  41 think it makes you feel good.  I guess because I am a  42 rancher myself.  43 Q   And what did she say to you about the 4H discussions?  44 A   She was very enthusiastic about it and I have to think  45 she tried her best and likely we didn't have enough  46 time between when we were last discussing the  47 possibility till when I was defeated in '79.  Because 18950  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1 I think we -- there is still a real opportunity and I  2 am sure it would be beneficial to everyone, because  3 believe me, the 4H youngsters that I run into in  4 different walks of life, it's very rewarding really to  5 see how well they have done.  6 Q   Your travels in the Skeena riding while you were an  7 MLA from 1975 to 1979, can you describe how often and  8 where you would go in the riding?  9 A   I would -- I would again travel around before the  10 session and after the session and I would usually hold  11 a public meeting in Kitimat, Terrace, Hazelton,  12 Smithers.  I would go to, of course, Kitwanga,  13 Kitwancool and visit there.  And up to the Kispiox,  14 Glen Vowell.  You never get around as much as you  15 would like to because there just isn't enough hours in  16 the day or days in the year when you are free to do  17 this.  Those ridings are so large that you never feel  18 satisfied with what you are doing.  You really don't.  19 Q   Did the sessions, the legislative sessions change?  20 A  A great deal.  21 Q   And so that can you say whether or not you were able  22 to spend the same amount of time or how can you  23 compare the time that you spent travelling in the  24 Skeena Electoral District while you were an MLA there  25 to the amount of time on an annual basis that you  26 spent in Omineca?  27 A   Oh, far less, because the first session, second  28 session lasted right into the late summer, you know,  29 and I was travelling around the province on an  30 agriculture committee that Len Bautre was chairman of,  31 trying to figure out what we were doing right and what  32 we were doing wrong in the field of agricultural  33 development in the province, and we were taking a look  34 at land uses in the various areas of the province.  35 Whether it should be forestry.  And there was lots of  36 lengthy discussions, especially at Quesnel, whether  37 the special sale area between Prince George and  38 Quesnel should be kept as forest land or agricultural  39 development.  And so there was quite some bitter  40 debates between agriculture and forestry.  They  41 maintained there was more dollars cutting trees once  42 every 95 years than there was in agriculture and I  43 maintained we could grow a crop every year and it was  44 more valuable use of lands in agriculture rather than  45 forestry.  I notice it still hasn't been resolved.  46 There is still lengthy arguments between forestry and  47 agriculture in this regard and likely always will. 18951  C. Shelford (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  And no doubt the policies of government haven't been  altogether as good as they should have been in the  taxation area.  It pays a farmer to push his trees  into a pile and burn them rather than leave the trees,  because he gets taxed on the standing trees.  And I  had many discussions with the minister of finance, but  by the time I got him convinced he was usually moved  to some other position and I would have to start all  over again.  And so there is a great need in this  area.  Q   All right.  Now, during -- can you say -- I asked you  earlier whether in the period '52 to '72 whether you  had ever heard -- and I gave you some names.  Carrier  you had.  And you said for Gitksan not yet.  Can you  recall the first time you heard Gitksan?  A   I would think it would be around the '75 period,  possibly I had heard it before that.  But it's not  something that I had heard.  I don't know why but it  certainly wasn't.  Q   All right.  What did you understand or who did you  understand were the Gitksan when you first heard it?  A  Well, I think some of the newspapers reported it, not  usually too well, that it was a group of various  Indian reserves in the area.  Q   All right.  And did you hear Gitksan/Carrier Tribal  Council at any time?  A   Not until '76, '77.  Somewhere in that area.  Q   How about Nishga?  A   Nishga was well-known for a long time due to the  Nishga court case back in '67.  Q   Prior to that court case had you heard --  A   I had heard Nishga for many years.  MR. WILLMS:  My lord, this would be an appropriate time.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Are you on schedule?  MR. WILLMS:  Yes, my lord.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  We will adjourn then until  10 o'clock tomorrow morning.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY JULY 19, 1989  AT 10:00 A.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and  accurate transcript of the proceedings herein to  the best of my skill and ability.  Laara Yardley, Official Reporter,  United Reporting Service Ltd. 18952  C. Shelford  In Chief by  (for Province)  Mr. Willms  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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