20069 Proceedings 1 VANCOUVER, B.C. 2 October 2, 1989 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of British 5 Columbia, this 2nd day of October, 1989. In the 6 matter of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen, at 7 bar, my lord. 8 MR. RUSH: I guess we're both popping on our feet at the same 9 time, my lord. 10 THE COURT: Plaintiff first, I guess. 11 MR. RUSH: I realize upon reviewing the transcript that we were 12 in fact to be here at 9:30, and -- 13 THE COURT: I didn't recall that. 14 MR. RUSH: I don't either, my lord, and it seems that nobody 15 else did. 16 MR. GOLDIE: Speak for yourself. 17 THE COURT: Sorry about that, completely escaped my 18 recollection. 19 MR. RUSH: My lord, perhaps one of the reasons why it had 20 escaped my recollection was that I was going to 21 propose that this discussion be deferred until 22 Wednesday. A proposal has come to us from the 23 Province, they made certain recommendations, and on 24 other aspects of the issues considered we have yet to 25 take instructions fully, so my proposal is that this 26 discussion be put to Wednesday morning. 27 MR. MACAULAY: My lord, neither Miss Koenigsberg nor I will be 28 here on Wednesday morning. It's difficult, we have to 29 be elsewhere. 30 THE COURT: Is any other day suitable, Mr. Rush? 31 MR. RUSH: Any other day after Wednesday. 32 MR. MACAULAY: Well, it's Wednesday, Thursday and Friday that we 33 will be away. It's in connection with the preparation 34 of our case. We will -- counsel will be here, of 35 course, representing the Attorney General. 36 THE COURT: How about a week today? 37 MR. RUSH: I think that we're into the holiday, of course, and 38 your lordship will be taking I think the Tuesday and 39 Wednesday away, so we will be looking next -- at the 40 next following Thursday. 41 THE COURT: Oh, yes. Well, I suppose that's not the end of the 42 world, is it, if we wait until Thursday, a week from 43 Thursday. 44 MR. MACAULAY: Late tomorrow afternoon seems very much the same 45 to me as Wednesday morning, but that may not be the 46 case, of course, with Mr. Rush. 47 THE COURT: Any possibility of that, Mr. Rush? 20070 Proceedings 1 MR. RUSH: Yes, there is a possibility, but it is a question of 2 taking instructions on certain features. 3 THE COURT: All right. We'll leave it with you and we can speak 4 to it tomorrow afternoon. If it's convenient to go 5 ahead, then we'll do so, and if it isn't, we will have 6 to find some other time. 7 MR. RUSH: Thank you. 8 THE COURT: All right, thank you. Mr. Goldie, fix it for four 9 o'clock tomorrow afternoon after court, tentatively, 10 thank you. 11 MR. GOLDIE: Yes, my lord, that's convenient. I should — Mr. 12 Grant raises another issue, and that is that there 13 have been certain discussions between counsel -- among 14 counsel dealing with the Morrell exhibits, and Mr. 15 Grant is prepared to speak to that tomorrow afternoon. 16 Since my learned friends from the federal defendant 17 won't be here for the rest of the week, perhaps that 18 can be done tomorrow afternoon as well. 19 THE COURT: Yes. We'll do that after the other discussion. 20 MR. GOLDIE: My lord, there are several other things that I was 21 going to raise this morning. I was under the 22 impression that we were to discuss scheduling at 9:30, 23 but obviously it's inconvenient, but I would like to 24 raise with my friends several things. Firstly, the 25 scheduling for the rest of the Province's case. And 26 I -- so far as I'm aware, this is the first time that 27 I have revised that since the estimate I gave in July, 28 and at that time several -- since that time several 29 things have happened which have made that schedule 30 obsolete. My lord, I propose that the scheduling be 31 as follows: That Dr. Farley's cross-examination and 32 re-examination be completed today, and that Dr. 33 Greenwood, who would be starting tomorrow, would be 34 completed by Friday, the 6th of October, that's four 35 days, and since we are not sitting on the 9th, 10th 36 and 11th of October, that Mr. Magwood commence on the 37 morning and be completed on the morning of the 13th 38 of -- 3 9 THE COURT: That's Magwood? 40 MR. GOLDIE: Magwood, yes, my lord. 41 THE COURT: And which day? 42 MR. GOLDIE: The 13th of October. 4 3 THE COURT: Yes. 44 MR. GOLDIE: I'm sorry, the 12th of October. 4 5 THE COURT: Yes. 46 MR. GOLDIE: That's Thursday, and we're allowing a half day for 47 that. 20071 Proceedings 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 MR. GOLDIE: And he would be followed by Mr. Williams, and we 3 would hope that Mr. Williams would be completed by the 4 17th or at the latest the 18th, and that Dr. Robinson 5 would be completed by the 19th, leaving -- 6 MR. RUSH: Completed by the 19th? 7 MR. GOLDIE: Completed by the 19th, yes. 8 MR. RUSH: One day? 9 MR. GOLDIE: No, two days. I'm hoping that Williams will be 10 completed by the 17th. 11 THE COURT: Yes. What day of the week are we getting to by 12 then? 13 MR. GOLDIE: Wednesday is the 18th. 14 THE COURT: Yes, all right. 15 MR. GOLDIE: And that would leave the 20th for any loose ends. 16 My lord, in order to accomplish this it will be 17 necessary to sit on Saturday the 14th, the evenings of 18 the 18th and 19th, and Saturday the 21st, primarily to 19 read in documents. Now, I might say that I do not 20 intend to deal with the documents in the same detail 21 that I have dealt with the papers that were laid 22 before parliament. I did that in order to provide 23 your lordship with a certain context, and I will be 24 dealing with the remaining documents much more 2 5 summarily. 26 THE COURT: What were those days again, please? 27 MR. GOLDIE: The Saturday the 14th of October. 28 THE COURT: That's during the course of Mr. Williams' evidence. 29 MR. GOLDIE: That's correct. And I will propose that instead of 30 Mr. Williams continuing, that we devote the Saturday 31 to getting -- I won't say rid of documents, but 32 getting them filed. 33 THE COURT: Getting past them. 34 MR. GOLDIE: The 21st I anticipate will be necessary, if not for 35 documents, just to -- in order to ensure that we 36 complete on schedule. Now, that timetable assumes 37 that cross-examination, if required, of one affidavit 38 relating to the fisheries licences which had been 39 marked for identification, and the -- there will be 40 two affidavits filed in respect of those, but the 41 cross-examination with respect to one would be done 42 out of court. The other cross-examination would be 43 conducted here, or in court, as my understanding is 44 that the witness will be called by Canada as part of 45 its case, so that we would require or ask that our 46 friend consent to defer their cross-examination on 47 that affidavit until that witness is called by Canada. 20072 Proceedings 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE MR. THE COURT MR. RUSH THE MR. MR. MR. That's — COURT: You mentioned some evenings. GOLDIE: Yes. The evenings of the 18th and 19th, again for documents. Yes, all right. Well, I will have to check and see what I have in those evenings, if anything, and I will certainly make every effort to move them if it -- if the times are taken. I hope they're not. All right. Well, I'm happy to sit in those times if that will see us through the case in the time you mentioned. Is that acceptable to your fellow counsel? Well, not really, my lord. Firstly, despite that what I had hoped on Friday, I cannot see completing cross-examination of Dr. Farley today, and I think the cross will definitely go into tomorrow. In terms of Dr. Greenwood, it had been scheduled that his examination would -- both direct and cross, would take one week. That will now be truncated to possibly three days, three and a half days. COURT: Well, we could sit Saturday. GOLDIE: Yes. RUSH: Yes. I have no difficulty in sitting Saturday or any difficulty in sitting later this week, that would be convenient from my point of view, but I do raise those questions. Now, so far as Mr. Magwood goes, I don't really see any difficulty in that time frame. The only other issue that I would raise with my friend is that he mentions two affidavits with regard to fishing licences. Now, we don't have either of those affidavits. I can suspect what the affidavit would contain, but I would like to know the witnesses and what they're going to say. It seems reasonable to do that out of court, and I -- at this point I don't really have -- I would like to reserve on our position with regard to crossing the second affiant during the course of the defendant federal government's case, but I would like to see both of those affidavits before making a decision on that. Finally, with regard to Dr. Robinson, I take it that my friend is saying that October 17th and 18th, that is to say a day for direct and a day for cross, would be sufficient for her evidence, and if that is -- if I'm correct in my understanding, I just would like to be clear on that, because I -- I would have thought that her evidence would take a little longer than that, but I could be wrong. GOLDIE: Well, it may be so. It may be that we've allotted 20073 Proceedings 1 too much time for Mr. Williams, and of course, if 2 that's the case, we'll try and -- Dr. Robinson would 3 be called immediately thereafter. 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 MR. GOLDIE: My expectation is that Dr. Robinson will be at 6 least two days, and I had in mind the 18th and 19th 7 for that and maybe into Friday the 20th. 8 THE COURT: Yes. Well, you're scheduling on the basis that we 9 will try and finish by October 20th. 10 MR. GOLDIE: Yes, that's correct. It's going to take, as I say, 11 some extra time, but it seems to be worth it to make 12 that effort. 13 THE COURT: Yes. What about the week of the 23rd. It's a week 14 that we normally wouldn't sit, but should we explore 15 sitting that week if necessary to finish all these 16 matters? 17 MR. GOLDIE: I have one matter that would take me out of town on 18 the 23rd and part of the 24th, and I will have to look 19 into that. 20 THE COURT: Yes, all right. Well, your friends might look at 21 their calendars and see what they're doing. I'm not 22 sure what I'm doing that week either, but it may be 23 that we should sit through a couple of these if 24 necessary. Mr. Macaulay, will you be ready to proceed 25 with your case on the 30th? 26 MR. MACAULAY: Well, my lord, we were going to suggest that we 27 start -- there's an appeal to the Supreme Court of 28 Canada in another of these cases, Pasco -- 2 9 THE COURT: Yes. 30 MR. MACAULAY: On the 6th — 7th, rather. And might I say 31 first, I am surprised to hear that the Province will 32 be finished its case on the -- or around the 20th. 33 The history of things so far I would think make it 34 prudent to add another few days to Mr. Goldie's 35 estimate. I don't fault Mr. Goldie's estimate, but it 36 seems to me that cross-examination, if Dr. Farley is 37 any example, we can expect an extended 38 cross-examination of the other expert witnesses, 39 particularly Dr. Greenwood and Dr. Robinson. I have 40 no way of estimating what the plaintiffs will do with 41 Mr. Williams. What -- we would like affirmed -- we 42 would like to start on a day certain, if we can. 43 Getting ready for the 30th and then finding that we 44 start on the 7th or 8th is not satisfactory. I might 45 say about our case, that suppose we did start on the 46 8th, we would be finished by the end of the month, if 47 all goes well. And if the certain custodial 20074 Proceedings 1 cross-examinations take place during the down week we 2 will be introducing some documents, not these 3 fisheries permits, but other documents, they will be 4 custodial affidavits, and purely custodial affidavit, 5 and not by, you know, people with any special 6 knowledge of the matters in issue. I would think that 7 could be dealt with during the off week, and if we 8 were to start on the 8th following the appeal to the 9 Supreme Court of Canada in the Pasco case, then we 10 could be finished by the end of November, leaving -- 11 well, on December 1st actually, but leaving all of 12 December for any other matters. Our schedule involves 13 an opening, in which we will deal with some commission 14 evidence and refer to some commission evidence that 15 had been taken and taken of -- in one case of an 16 Indian agent, a Mr. Boys(?), who is nearly 80, and it 17 was done on commission, and another was a former 18 fisheries officer in the claim area, a Mr. Giraud. He 19 is ill and his commission evidence was taken. We 20 intend to refer to documents in our opening, a number 21 of documents, and so that the opening will take a 22 couple of days, but that two days will be taken up 23 largely in dealing with documents that deal with 24 commission evidence, most of it. Following that we 25 have a week of evidence from former Indian agents, and 26 then the last week will be taken up with evidence 27 concerning fisheries, so that we plan on having our 28 case completed within not much more than three weeks. 29 I mention all that, because if the court were inclined 30 to accede to our request, we start our case on the day 31 certain, that is on the 8th, we can be finished by the 32 end of November, beginning of December. 33 THE COURT: Yes. 34 MR. GOLDIE: Well, my lord, I wonder before my friend, Mr. Rush, 35 comments on that, I should say this: That my 36 understanding was that Canada's case will take five 37 weeks, and my friend is now -- 38 THE COURT: Sounds like three weeks. 39 MR. MACAULAY: We keep sharpening our pencil, as they say. 40 MR. GOLDIE: I'm delighted, because that takes the pressure that 41 was on me, as far as I was concerned, was to ensure 42 that the evidence in this case was finished by the end 43 of the year, because everything relating to the 44 scheduling of the argument is based on that 45 assumption. And I am relieved to hear that my friend 46 has sharpened his pencil and -- my friends, I should 47 say, have sharpened his and her pencils, and that my 20075 Proceedings 1 friend can take that because I have no doubt that 2 if -- it will become wearisome to sit evenings and 3 Saturdays and in the week off in order to accomplish 4 the objective. 5 THE COURT: It raises the question if there's any need to sit 6 those extra days or evenings if we're not going to be 7 able to start the next defence until the 8th. The 8 question, of course, is whether Mr. Macaulay or Miss 9 Koenigsberg or one or more of them or others can be 10 here for those other extra days if we don't sit at 11 night and Saturdays? 12 MR. GOLDIE: Well, I would like to keep that open, because 13 particularly with respect to Dr. Greenwood, who is 14 from out of town, he's from the east, and it would be 15 a great pity if he was held here over the 9th, 10th 16 and 11th. So I would like to keep open Saturday the 17 7th and the evenings possibly of this week. 18 THE COURT: All right. Well, I will block off those days, if I 19 possibly can, and I will check with you -- I'll check 20 with my schedule and report back right after the 21 morning break, but my inclination is to sit the extra 22 hours, even if Mr. Macaulay doesn't start until the 23 8th, just to give ourselves as much leeway as 24 possible. 25 MR. GOLDIE: Yes. I would -- the extra time that I was looking 26 for, as I say, is primarily to get rid of documents, 27 and I hope to deal with them fairly early. My lord, 28 before -- I don't suggest this discussion is closed, 29 but I do want to raise a couple of other points that I 30 thought we would be dealing with this morning, and 31 just to leave them to ensure that they are going to be 32 dealt with, what is now four o'clock on Thursday, so 33 that we're all clear -- 34 THE COURT: No, four o'clock tomorrow. 35 MR. GOLDIE: Four o'clock tomorrow. 3 6 THE COURT: Yes. 37 MR. GOLDIE: The items that I am concerned about is the 38 completion of the plaintiff's case, and by that I'm 39 talking about the resolution of the amendment to the 40 Statement of Claim, the disposition of the -- of the 41 Kitwancool documents, the final argument on business 42 records, and the item that my friend, Mr. Rush, 43 mentioned, Morrell. I should say that we have been 44 holding off making some minor amendments to the 45 defence until the Statement of Claim was settled, and 46 what I will do is send to my friends today a letter 47 outlining the amendments to the defence so that if 20076 Proceedings 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. possible we could deal with those tomorrow afternoon. There -- we also wish to raise and fix a time for disposing of other outstanding matters, and I refer in that regard firstly to the better copies of maps, marked during Mr. Morrison's evidence. I am concerned about seeing those before Dr. Farley leaves the stand, as my friends were reminded of this on September the 13th. THE COURT: That's not hardly going to be possible, is it, unless they're available right now. RUSH: They are. COURT: Well, of course, Dr. Farley is going to go into tomorrow now. GOLDIE: The assurance was given that they would be available when Mr. Morrison was in the stand. COURT: Yes, all right. GOLDIE: Those are the items that I hope we'll be able to deal with tomorrow afternoon. COURT: All right. RUSH: Well, my lord, just a couple of points: Firstly, the question of the federal defendant's schedule. It had been my assumption, like Mr. Goldie's, that their case would take up to five weeks, and part of that was built on advice that I had received from them that they would be tendering certain witnesses to prove maps as a matter of in-court evidence. Judging from what has been said, the assumption they seem to be proceeding on now, and I would like this confirmed, is that those affients, should it be necessary to do so, will be examined out of court, and I would -- I think that needs to be clarified, because I think it bears on the in-court schedule and certainly bears on the amount of activity, if I can put it that way, in relation to the federal defendant's -- COURT: Mr. Macaulay is nodding I think affirmatively. MACAULAY: That's right, my lord. I counted on the — I considered those to be essentially custodial matters, and we are waiting to hear from Mr. Rush which ones of the maps ought to be the subject of cross-examinations. When we know that, then we can produce the necessary person. COURT: All right. RUSH: It's not so much the person at this point, my lord, it's the question of time, when he proposes that can be done. MACAULAY: Yes. That was during the off week. In other words, I mentioned three weeks, or a little more than THE MR. THE MR. MR. 20077 Proceedings 1 three weeks, I'm talking about court time. 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. MACAULAY: There is a — there is a down week during that 4 period, and I -- 5 THE COURT: Before your three weeks starts? 6 MR. MACAULAY: No, during the three weeks. 7 THE COURT: Oh, is there? 8 MR. GOLDIE: The week of the 20th of November. 9 MR. MACAULAY: Yes. 10 THE COURT: Yes, all right. Is that satisfactory, Mr. Rush? 11 MR. RUSH: Yes, I think so. I think I understand that. 12 THE COURT: All right, thank you. 13 MR. RUSH: The other points, my lord, is that the questions to 14 be dealt with tomorrow afternoon, I agree with my 15 friend, Mr. Goldie, that these are matters that should 16 be dealt with. I'm not sure we can deal with each and 17 every one of these tomorrow afternoon, and perhaps 18 what I can do is to discuss this with Mr. Grant and we 19 can certainly deal with the Morrell matter and perhaps 20 the question of the Statement of Claim amendments, but 21 barring that, I think it might be that we would have 22 to deal with some of these other issues later in the 23 week, or even a week Thursday, but it seems to me 24 these are not matters that are going to be simple 25 ones. The reason that we're loading up at the end is 26 they presented some difficulty. I think it may take 27 some argument on that, and I would like to be sure 28 that counsel who were involved in some of these other 29 issues, such as the business records arguments, are 30 available to do so. Subject to that caveat, I see no 31 difficulty in at least raising them tommorrow and deal 32 with those that we can. 33 THE COURT: Thank you. 34 MR. GOLDIE: I appreciate when this was first discussed last 35 week that my friends were going to advise us of the 36 position they were taking on business records prior to 37 the argument, that was agreed upon. 38 THE COURT: All right, thank you. I notice that Mr. Plant isn't 39 here. I have read these documents that Mr. Plant gave 40 me or delivered with his letter of September 15th 41 relating to what I think could be called the 42 Kitwancool Map Reserve? 43 MR. GOLDIE: Yes. 44 THE COURT: Is it convenient for me to deal with this in Mr. 45 Plant's absence? 46 MR. GOLDIE: Yes, I think so, my lord. I was going to say that 47 was one of the items I referred to that we might deal 2007? Proceedings 1 with tomorrow afternoon, but -- 2 THE COURT: Well, will Mr. Plant be here? 3 MR. GOLDIE: Yes, he could be. If your lordship is -- it can be 4 dealt with now. 5 THE COURT: I think it might be better if I do them now, because 6 I have read this collection of documents and I will 7 return it to Mr. Goldie, because I have concluded that 8 there is nothing in that material that is relevant to 9 the issues in this case. But I extracted from it some 10 documents, being a report on the upper watershed of 11 the Kispiox River as a nature conservancy, dated in 12 1974, signed by -- well, I don't know if it's signed 13 by -- but it's referred to somewhere in it as being a 14 document submitted by Mr. Neil Sterritt and others, 15 and also a letter to Mr. Brian Price, northern zone 16 co-ordinator of British Columbia Parks Branch, dated 17 July 4th, 1974, which encloses that report that I just 18 mentioned signed by Mr. Clay, and also what appears to 19 be a response prepared jointly by the Parks Branch and 20 the Fish and Wildlife Branch in the Province, with an 21 attached commentary, a letter from Mr. Ahrens, dated 22 September 20th, 1974, to Mr. Waddell, and a copy of a 23 letter from Mr. A.F. Smith to Mr. Ahrens, I guess it 24 is, and I think those documents, some of which I think 25 we have seen already, but I think those documents are 26 produceable, if they have not already been produced, 27 and should be shown to the plaintiffs. Mr. Goldie, in 2 8 that I found in this bundle the documents should have 29 been in the other bundle, it's a notation that does 30 not relate to the matters that I think should be 31 disclosed, and that document should be put back in 32 your file, but those separate documents, which I have 33 described, in my view, should be produced to the 34 plaintiffs. 35 MR. GOLDIE: My lord, if I could have the documents which your 36 lordship extracted, I will have copies made and -- 37 THE COURT: Yes. That's why I — 38 MR. GOLDIE: I will check to see whether they have been listed. 39 THE COURT: That's why I listed them in the way I did. 40 MR. GOLDIE: Thank you, my lord. 41 THE COURT: Now, in addition I have to say that in the letter 42 which Mr. Plant sent me and which a copy was sent on 43 to Mr. Evans, Mr. Macaulay, Mr. Plant confirmed that 44 he had extracted from this collection those documents 45 which he thought were privileged, and of course I have 46 not seen those documents. 47 MR. GOLDIE: Those were the subject matter of the submissions 20079 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush that were made on Friday, my lord, by Mr. Grant and by Mr. -- Mr. Plant and your lordship was -- a list was handed up which indicated the description of each of the privileged documents. The matter was left, as I understand it, that if Mr. Grant wished to make any further representations he was at liberty to do so. COURT: Yes, all right. I'll hear from Mr. Grant in due course, if he wishes to pursue the matter. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Rush? Thank you. Call the witness, please. REGISTRAR: Yes. ALBERT LEONARD FARLEY: Recalled REGISTRAR: May I remind you, sir, you are still under oath. A Yes. REGISTRAR: Thank you. And would you state your name for the record, please? A Albert Leonard Farley, F-a-r-1-e-y. REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 5S-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH CONTINUED: Q Dr. Farley, I'm going to refer you to your folio of maps again, please? A Yes. Q And I would like to refer you to the Mitchell map at map 10, and I would particularly ask you, if you will, to look at part 2? A Yes. Q I think you have part 2 there, do you? A Yes. RUSH: Just ask you to take that out, Dr. Farley, and have that available to you. And, my lord, I'm going to show the witness another -- a map in three parts, just going to hand this up to you now in the pouch, and this can be inserted at tab 5 of the plaintiff's document book. GOLDIE: Excuse me, would you wait until I finish looking at it, please. RUSH: Yes. COURT: That's Exhibit 1154. REGISTRAR: Tab 5. RUSH: Tab 5, my Lord. GOLDIE: Can I ask my friend if this has been disclosed? RUSH: Yes, you disclosed it. This is the other part of the Mitchell map. GOLDIE: I'm sorry, I don't think we -- I don't recall 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 THE 8 9 10 11 THE 12 13 14 15 THE 16 17 THE 18 19 20 THE 21 22 CRO 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 MR. 33 34 35 36 37 38 MR. 39 40 MR. 41 THE 42 THE 43 MR. 44 MR. 45 MR. 46 47 MR. 20080 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 disclosing this. 2 MR. RUSH: No, you didn't disclose this part of it. 3 MR. GOLDIE: We didn't have it. 4 MR. RUSH: My lord, you will recall that parts 1 and 2 of the 5 Mitchell map were disclosed and then -- 6 THE COURT: And 3, I think. 7 MR. RUSH: And then during the examination of Dr. Farley part 3 8 was disclosed, and questions were raised about the 9 remaining portions of it, and I took the liberty to 10 get the remaining portions and I have those here, and 11 I would like to show those to the witness. 12 MR. GOLDIE: I agree with that, except, my lord, the part 3 was 13 sent to my friend before Dr. Farley's examination. 14 MR. RUSH: 15 Q Now, Dr. Farley -- this is a map, my lord, in three 16 parts, and I'll just explain it. It's a reduced 17 version of the Mitchell map, part 3 of 4 on the 18 first -- the first in the sequence. The second is 1 19 of 4, which I'm going to ask Dr. Farley to confirm is 20 in fact map number 10 in his folio, 2 of 2, and then 21 the last of the three maps is in fact a blown-up 22 version of the first of the three. Now, Dr. Farley, 23 I'm just showing you this portion of the Mitchell map, 24 and I would like you to compare the second page of the 25 three that I've handed to you, and I wonder if you can 26 confirm for me that it is a reduced copy of the 27 Mitchell map part 2 of 2, which is map 10 in your 28 folio? 29 A Yes. This appears to be a reduction of the Mitchell 30 map of this northwestern portion of the Mitchell map. 31 Q Thank you. Now, I would like you to look now at the 32 first of these maps, and I wonder if you can compare 33 by comparison to the Mitchell map part 2 of 2, folio 34 10, that it is the southwestern portion of the 35 Mitchell map? It might be more convenient for you to 36 compare the two reduced copies. Now, if you will just 37 compare those two documents? 38 A It's a little difficult to do, because clearly this is 39 the southwestern portion. 40 Q Yes, but if you fit the part 2 of 2 in -- of your map 41 10 with the first of the three maps, which is 3 of 4, 42 you will see that they fit together? 43 A Yes. I can accept that without going into the detail 44 of comparison. 45 Q You will see, Dr. Farley, that the National Map 46 Collection archival number 001573/4 is the same as the 47 MMC50157343-4? 20081 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A 2 Q 3 4 5 6 7 A 8 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 Q 28 29 30 31 A 32 33 34 35 36 MR. RUSH: 37 38 39 40 THE COURT 41 MR. RUSH: 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 46 47 Correct. All right. Now, Dr. Farley, I just would like you to -- I would like to ask you if in fact you have, in the preparation of your evidence, did you make reference to that southwest portion of the Mitchell map of 17 55? When you say "make reference", you mean in the written submission? No. Have you reviewed it before? Yes. So that you can confirm by -- from your earlier knowledge that the map that I'm now showing you is the reduced portion of the southwest section of the Mitchell map, is in fact the Mitchell map depicting that portion? Yes. Now, can you tell me why you did not include that as part of the Mitchell map in your folio? Well, if you will recall, the Mitchell map is a huge map, if I remember correctly, the scale of something like 32 miles to the inch, and just as a matter of convenience and managing the map, it seems to me appropriate to include -- or rather to exclude the southern section for convenience, just in the sheer size of handling these sheets, or the inconvenience, rather, of handling that size sheet. You will agree with me, however, that the reduced portion of the southwest section of the Mitchell map I've showed you this morning shows the full length of the Ohio River running in a northeasterly direction? Yes. I find that the reduced copy, to be honest, is difficult to read. I can certainly see the Ohio River, I agree with you, but I'm afraid I cannot read the notations that are on the map except those that are in the larger lettering. All right. Well, I want to direct your attention now to what is a blown-up version of the southwest portion and to the text that's in the upper left-hand corner of the map. Now, my lord, do you have the third map? : Yes. Are you with me there, Dr. Farley? Yes. And I want to direct your attention to the note that appears at the left-hand margin of the map, and I would ask you if you can agree with me that it says the following, and if you'll read along with me: 20082 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 "The heads and sources of these rivers and the 2 countries beyond the bounds of this map are not 3 well known. It is generally allowed to be 18 4 degrees of longitude from the forks of the 5 Mississippi to the mountains of New Mexico, 6 whereas it is but 13 degrees from fence to the 7 Atlantic Ocean by which we see that Louisiana, 8 which was granted by Louis the 14th" 9 10 Are you with me? 11 A Yes. 12 Q 13 "To New Mexico is much larger west of the 14 Mississippi than all our Colonies together would 15 be" -- 16 17 A "Taken together". 18 MR. RUSH: 19 "than all our Colonies taken together would be if 20 extended to the Mississippi. Canada again is 21 larger than either of these. If we extend these 22 two Colonies to the Allegheny Mountains, as we see 23 done in the French maps, they include 9/10ths 24 of all the countries here laid down." 25 26 You agree with that, that I properly read with -- 27 MR. GOLDIE: Are you going to read the next two sentences? 2 8 MR. RUSH: 29 Q Do you agree with where I am, Dr. Farley? 30 A Yes, so far. 31 Q 32 "This claim would be much larger than the French 33 themselves imagine it, who lay down the 34 Appalachian Mountains much farther west than the 35 surveys and actual--" 36 37 A I think it's "mensurations". 38 Q 39 "mensurations here numbered undoubtedly show them 40 to be." 41 42 A Yes, that's a reasonable statement. 43 Q All right. Now, Dr. Farley, based on that Mitchell 44 text, you would certainly agree with me that Mitchell 45 believed Canada covered a much larger area to the west 46 than he indicated within the bounds of this map? 47 A Well, that -- the statement indicates that, yes. 20083 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A A And in terms of the state of mind of the cartographers in that period, don't you agree that that was relevant to your consideration in your evidence? Well, not particularly. At least I didn't perceive it that way. As I pointed out repeatedly in the submission I made, the cartographers of the time simply did not know where Canada's boundaries extended to in the west, nor did they know the extent of North America in the west, other than, yes, they knew approximately at this time, approximately, what the trend of the coast was up to the entrance of Martin Aguilar. Well, I'll come back to that, Dr. Farley, but in terms of this, I suggest to you that would it not be more explanatory of Mitchell's state of mind to include all of the sections of the map to indicate what he knew of the land mass west of the Mississippi? Well, if I may say so, this might have been done with any of the maps. The fact of the matter is the Mitchell map is a large scale map, as I've indicated, and to reduce that down to a size appropriate to what I thought would be appropriate for the court to examine, to reduce that down probably would be defeating the purpose. I suppose that depends on the purpose. Now, Dr. Farley -- thank you, I will just ask you to fold this up, my lord. I would like that to be the next tab, and it would be -- I suggest the order of these being the southwestern portion 3 of 4 first, the northwestern portion 1 of 4 first, and the enlarged portion being the third part. : 1154-5A, B, and C. Thank you. : And they will be inserted as tab 5. (EXHIBIT 1154-5A - Southwest portion of 1755 Mitchell Map) (EXHIBIT 1154-5B - Northwest portion of 1755 Mitchell Map - Reduced) (EXHIBIT 1154-5C - Northwest corner of southwest section of Mitchell map) MR. RUSH: Q Thank you. Now, Dr. Farley, I would like you, please, to turn to map 12 in your folio. MR. RUSH: THE COURT MR. RUSH: THE COURT 20084 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 THE COURT 7 MR. RUSH: 8 9 10 11 12 13 MR. GOLDI 14 MR. RUSH: 15 Q 16 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 31 32 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 Q 47 Yes. Which is a copy of the Bowen map of 1763? Yes. Do you have it? Yes. : Do we put this Mitchell map away? Yes, my lord, thank you. Now, Dr. Farley -- perhaps the original of the Bowen map can be shown to Dr. Farley in this part, I think it's part 2 of 2. I'm going to show you the original of this, Dr. Farley, so you can compare it with the copy. The original is somewhat better. £: It is a photograph, of course, of the original. Now, if you can just confirm for me, Dr. Farley, that I'm directing your attention into the upper left-hand corner of the -- of the map, and just compare it with the copy that you have? Yes. Now, there is a notation in the upper left-hand corner. Do you know what that refers to? It refers to the file in the British archives. In the British archives? Well, the London record office, yes. All right. Now, you have the inset; you see where the inset is located? Yes. And from your -- would you agree with me, Dr. Farley, from your knowledge of the French cartography and the earlier British or English maps which you have examined, that by placing the inset in this position Mr. Bowen was not indicating a lack of knowledge of what was in that area of North America? Excuse me, he was not indicating? Not indicating? Well, I couldn't agree with that. I would say that the upper left-hand corner of this map, of the base map itself, is the place for which there was the least available information, and that that therefore was the convenient spot for the inset, and this is not an unusual arrangement, or at least a decision for cartographers of that time to have made, to put an inset, if they want to include one in the area where there is least information. In fact, it's done today, it's common cartographic practise. I think you've already agreed with me, however, that Bellin in 1755 had mapped to the west of what is shown 20085 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 on this map; is that correct? 2 A Well, he had shown on his maps information for that 3 area, but as we well know by comparing the lands maps 4 with the contemporary maps, there was a great deal of 5 distortion of distances and direction and size. 6 MR. RUSH: I'm not asking you to compare it to contemporary 7 maps, Dr. Farley, I'm asking you to agree with me 8 about what the cartographic state of knowledge was at 9 the time that Bellin did his 1755 map. 10 MR. GOLDIE: That's what he was answering you. 11 MR. RUSH: No, he wasn't, not if -- he was answering in relation 12 to what the maps are today. 13 MR. GOLDIE: He didn't talk about the maps of today. 14 MR. RUSH: 15 Q Well, he did. Now, I'm asking you to direct your 16 attention, Dr. Farley, specifically to the question 17 that I'm putting to you, and that is that in 1755 your 18 map number 14, Bellin had himself mapped the area to 19 the west in the area which is now the -- which on the 20 Bowen map, your map number 12, where this inset 21 appears on that map? 22 A He had represented information for that area. The 23 quality of the information was low, and on that 24 account Mitchell may well -- or Bowen, rather, may 25 well have decided not to represent that. That was a 26 good place there for an inset. 27 Q Well, then it would be surprising to you on that that 28 he represented the topographical features of the Du 29 Fonte stories? 30 A Well, again, try to answer these questions from an 31 academic point of view, or at least from a scholarly 32 point of view. The underlying point in all of this is 33 that there was an absence -- an absence of hard 34 information, and by hard information, I mean position, 35 co-ordinate position in latitude and longitude. There 36 was an absence of that, and there was very little 37 information anyway, and such that was available was 38 rather fragmentary. So you might say well, how can 39 one project one's own mind into the mind of the 40 cartographer of the time. It's very difficult to do. 41 Q I'm not asking you to do that, and you're a 42 cartographer, Dr. Farley? 43 A Yes. 44 Q This is your specialty? 45 A Yes. 46 Q And so I would assume that you would have knowledge of 47 the history of the maps and the connections of one 20086 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 cartographer's knowledge to another, correct? 2 A I'm not sure what you mean by connections of one 3 cartographer. 4 Q Well, Bowen would gather his information from other 5 cartographic sources, wouldn't he? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And Bellin is likely one of those sources; isn't that 8 right? 9 A I think quite likely, yes. 10 Q And De L'isle is probably one of his? 11 A Possibly, yes. 12 Q Dr. Farley, I want you to look at the inset in the 13 upper left-hand corner, and you'll notice in the upper 14 left-hand corner of the inset Bowen makes reference to 15 the Lake Du Fonte discovered 1640? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Correct? 18 A Yes. But I notice also that that representation is in 19 a dotted line, which suggests to me that it's a very 20 tenuous information. 21 Q He puts it on the map, doesn't he, Dr. Farley? 22 A Yes. It's on the map, yes. 23 Q And that was presumably the state of his knowledge at 24 the time, correct? 25 A Yes, ignorance, essentially ignorance for that area. 26 Q I see. And you will notice that he says -- Dr. 27 Farley, if you look to that portion of the inset, he 28 states: "This lake is from 20 to 60 fathoms deep." 29 Do you see that? 30 A Yes. 31 Q And there is a strait leading to a small lake, 32 Ronquille? 33 A Yes. 34 Q And you will see stated there to be an Indian town? 35 A Yes. 36 Q Now, do you know where Bowen would have got that 37 information? 38 A Probably a mixture of French sources and translations 39 of the La Hontan account -- sorry of the Du Fonte 40 narrative. 41 Q Yes, all right, thank you. You can set that aside, 42 Dr. Farley. I would like you -- like to show you now, 43 Dr. Farley, a map, and this map is entitled "Map of 44 the new discoveries to the north of the South Sea". 45 And this is dated 1752, and it is attributed to Joseph 46 Nicholas De L'isle and Phillip Buache? 47 A Yes. 20087 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 MR. GOLDIE: Has this been disclosed? 2 MR. RUSH: This is on your document list 1185. 3 MR. GOLDIE: Thank you. That's the A.G.B.C. list? 4 MR. RUSH: 5 Q That's correct. Now, Dr. Farley, have you seen this 6 map before? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And can you tell us who Phillip Buache is, please? 9 A Phillip Buache was a French cartographer, if memory 10 serves me correctly, he was a member of the French 11 Academy and was related to J.N. De L'isle. 12 MR. RUSH: Now, Dr. Farley — my lord, I would like this to be 13 tab 6 in the binder, please. 14 THE COURT: Yes, all right. 15 THE REGISTRAR: 1154-6. 16 17 (EXHIBIT 1154-6 - De L'Isle-Buache map - 1752) 18 19 MR. RUSH: 20 Q Now, Dr. Farley, I would like you, if you will please, 21 to just turn to tab 19, or folio map number 19, and 22 this is J.N. De L'Isle's map of 1752. And I would 23 just like you to compare the Buache map of 1752 and 24 the De L'isle map of 1752 in the northwest of North 25 America, and I would ask you if you can agree with me 26 that they are similar in the topography that is 27 disclosed there? 28 A Yes. They are similar, they are not identical, but 2 9 similar. 30 Q Did you consult the Buache map when preparing your 31 opinion? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Is there a reason you didn't include it in your folio? 34 A Not -- no particular reason, except the copy that I 35 have included is a sharper copy and reproduced rather 36 well. 37 Q Excuse me. You will notice, Dr. Farley, that above 38 the "Mer" or Bay -- Sea or Bay of the West on the 39 Buache 1752 map, there is a topographical feature 40 shown as the Lac Du Fonte? 41 A Yes. 42 Q That would come from the Du Fonte disclosure, would it 43 not, or accounts? 44 A From that account, yes. 45 Q Yes. And do you see that it says to the left of that 46 lake "Discovered by Admiral Du Fonte in 1640"? 47 A I'm sorry, I can't pick that up. 200? A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 Q 2 3 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 THE COURT 16 A 17 MR. RUSH: 18 THE COURT 19 MR. RUSH: 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 27 28 A 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 Q 36 37 38 39 40 A 41 42 43 44 45 46 Q 47 All right. Just let me see if I can find that. Yes. We're -- it's in the larger print, Dr. Farley. You see it just under the word "Terre"? Yes. Discovered by Admiral Du Fonte, 1640? Yes. And you will see there as well, Dr. Farley, a reference to Lac Ronquille? Yes. And you will also note that there is an indication in French of Indian town? Yes. Or Indian village? Yes. : Where is the 1640, I haven't found that, please. Sorry, my lord. "Discovered by Admiral Du Fonte, 1640". : I see, yes, thank you. Dr. Farley, keeping in mind the inset on the northwest section of the Bowen map number 12 -- Yes. -- where these -- these words also appeared -- Yes. -- can you agree with me that it is likely that Bowen took the information shown on that inset from the 1752 De L'Isle-Buache map? I can't agree with that entirely, in that Bowen may well have had access to a translation of the Du Fonte narrative and indeed that narrative was popular in England for the very reason that I mentioned in my report, that is that English merchants were very interested in finding a northwest passage, and that whole concept had its best audience in Britain. All right. Dr. Farley, can you think of any other source, direct source, for Bowen's knowledge as depicted in that inset in the Northwest section of the Bowen map number 12, except the De L'Isle-Buache map of 1752? Well, as I've already indicated, he may well have derived it from the De L'isle, but not necessarily. I find that a very difficult question to answer. How would I know, how would one possibly know at this time what was in the mind of Mr. Bowen when he prepared the map. By the comparison of what's on the inset to the De L'Isle-Buache map of 1752? 20089 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A 2 Q 3 4 A 5 6 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 Q 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A 26 ] MR. GOLD 27 28 ] MR. RUSH 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 Q 46 A 47 Yes. Excuse me, if I may finish the question. And by the comparison of the topographical features depicted? Yes. And if you look at the Du Fonte account, you will see that he could have derived it from the Du Fonte account. Well, I simply suggest to you, Dr. Farley, that Bowen, when he prepared that 1763 map, which is your map number 12, had far more knowledge about topographical and geographical features to the west of the border of his map than was depicted on it; do you agree with that? Well, it depends on how you interpret the word "information". If we're talking about hard information, no. And I think even in Bowen's time there was some scepticism about the whole Du Fonte narrative. Yes. There was scepticism, but, Dr. Farley, I'm simply drawing your attention to the fact that Bowen, if, as I suggest to you, and you haven't agreed with this, that he -- it is likely that he took the Du Fonte depiction from this Buache 1752 map, that is it not the case that Bowen would have had knowledge of this map and as well what is depicted on it? Well — 3: Assuming the witness has not agreed with my friend's assumption. Well, I'll take the assumption out, Dr. Farley. Isn't it the case that it's likely that Bowen had knowledge of the depictions shown on the Buache 1752 map? It's quite possible that he had that knowledge. May I make an observation concerning this map? This map -- Which map now? This is the De L'isle map. The De L'Isle-Buache, 1752? Yes. Came under fire from fellow admonitions in Paris, virtually the moment it was published there was a good deal of criticism of it, and especially again among De L'Isle's academic colleagues at the academy in Paris. It had a better reception in Britain for the very reason I've outlined, namely merchants of the time were interested, very interested in continuing the search for a Northwest passage, so -- It would -- So trying to put myself in the position that Bowen was in at the time, he may well have felt what's the point 20090 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 in including this other than in a very tentative way 2 and only in the inset for Hudson Bay. 3 Q But I think you will agree with me, Dr. Farley, that 4 in Britain at the time the depictions shown on the De 5 L'Isle-Buache map of 1752 were widely known? 6 A Well, one can make that assumption. 7 Q No. You know that as a matter of historical 8 cartographic research, don't you? 9 A Could you restate the question? 10 Q Yes. You know as a matter of historical cartographic 11 research that that map, the De L'Isle-Buache 1752 map, 12 was widely circulated in Britain, and the depictions 13 on it were known widely? 14 A Yes. They were widely known. 15 MR. RUSH: And likely to — 16 MR. GOLDIE: I don't think he had finished. 17 MR. RUSH: 18 Q Yes, go ahead? 19 A Well, again I'm trying to make the point, it's not 20 possible for one to know the extent to which Bowen 21 relied upon such information for his map and the 22 depiction that appears in the inset portion of that 23 map. We can make the assumption that he did, but we 24 don't know that. 25 MR. RUSH: Yes, thank you, sir. I would like that to be the 26 next tab 6, please. 2 7 THE COURT: Yes. 2 8 MR. RUSH: 29 Q And Dr. Farley, I would now ask you to turn to your 30 map 16 in your folio. Now, this is Bowen's map, I 31 think it's been referred to as 1777? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Are you -- do you have that map, Dr. Farley? 34 A Yes. 35 Q And I think you said that you believed it was taken 36 from an atlas by Thomas Jeffreys? 37 A Yes, from The American Atlas. 38 Q All right. I want to show you -- I would like to 39 refer the witness to another map, please. Now, Dr. 40 Farley, I'm showing you another Bowen map of North 41 America, and I just ask you to set the two maps side 42 by side, if you will. All right. So you have your 43 map number 16 and this Bowen map, and you will agree 44 with me that it indicates in the cartouche that it was 45 engraved by Emanuel Bowen? 46 A Yes. 47 Q And do you recognize this, Dr. Farley? 20091 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A Yes. This is a reduced copy -- no, it is not, I'm 2 sorry. I thought it was a reduced copy of the one 3 that I have, but it is not. 4 Q All right. It's -- Dr. Farley, it's identified in the 5 Province's supplementary list of documents as being 6 dated 1772? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Does that accord with your understanding? 9 A Yes. Well, it does, if I recall correctly, Jeffreys 10 and Bowen collaborated on a number of the maps, and as 11 I stated in my report -- my opinion, it's difficult to 12 know the details of authorship for the individual 13 maps, but generally this map appears to be similar to 14 the one that I have included, and therefore we could 15 say it -- at least authorities regard it as being 16 primarily Bowen's work. 17 Q All right. This — 18 A May I just make an observation about the date. The 19 atlas was published -- that is the second edition from 20 which the copy I have included in my folio of maps, 21 second edition was published in 1777, late '76 or 22 early '77. Well, I think that's — 23 Q All right. What I would like to do, Dr. Farley, is we 24 have these two maps in front of you, the 1772 Bowen, 25 the one that's map number 16 in your folio, which is 26 1777, and I would just like now to place before you, 27 and I am sorry that this is as awkward as it is, but I 28 am placing the original Bowen 1763 map in front of 29 you, and I ask you if you can agree with me that in 30 terms of the area north and northwest of Lake Superior 31 that the three maps are virtually identical? 32 A No. I -- just looking at the photographic copy museum 33 from the British Records Office, they are not 34 identical, a number of differences in the features 35 there. Now, comparing -- 36 Q Between which? 37 A Between that. 38 Q The 1763 Bowen — 39 A And this copy you just presented me with. 40 Q And the 1772. Now, can you tell me, as comparing the 41 1772 and the 1777, I think you indicated a few moments 42 ago that they were virtually identical, are they? 43 A Yes, they're very similar. I can't say they're 44 identical, it would take me some time to look at all 45 the details. 46 Q Yes. I'm just asking you to make that assessment of 47 the north and northwest portion of the land mass north 20092 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 and northwest of Lake Superior? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Are you with me? 4 A Yes. 5 Q All right. And if you will look on your map 16 -- 6 A Yes. 7 Q Do you see where it -- the Mississippi is located 8 there, Dr. Farley? 9 A You mean the Mississippi? 10 Q Mississippi River? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And you see there that it says "Head is unknown"? 13 A Yes. "Mississippi R, whose head is unknown"; is that 14 the statement? 15 Q Yes. You will agree with me, Dr. Farley, that Mr. 16 Bowen's inscription on his 1772 and 1773 -- excuse 17 me -- 1772 and 1777 map is different from what he put 18 on his map of 1763. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Insofar as what he says about the source of the 21 Mississippi? 22 A Yes. He says -- if I may read it out to the court? 23 Q Yes, go ahead. 24 A On the photographic copy from the London records 25 office: 26 27 "Mississippi R, it's head very uncertain, situated, 28 according to the Indians, in the very marshy 29 country above the 50th degree of latitude." 30 31 Q So certainly in respect -- in that one feature there 32 is a difference in terms of his inscriptions; you will 33 agree with that? 34 A In terms of the statements included in the 35 general area of the headwaters of the Mississippi, 36 yes. 37 Q All right. And for that purpose, Dr. Farley, you've 38 compared the Bowen -- the photographic copy, Bowen's 39 1763 map, and Bowen's 1777 map, which is your number 40 16? 41 A Yes. 42 Q All right, thank you. Now, I just want to ask you 43 again, Dr. Farley, that you will agree with me that 44 the topography north of Lake Superior on Bowen's 1763 45 is markedly different from the topography that's shown 46 on his 1772 and 1777 maps, and I'm talking principally 47 about what is referred to as the Kristano Lake? 20093 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A Yes. When you referred to topography, you're not 2 referring to the representation of terrain but rather 3 to the drainage? 4 Q No. I'm sorry, I misspoke there. I'm referring to 5 the depiction of the geographic features north of Lake 6 Superior? 7 A Yes. There's a difference between the London records 8 office copy and the -- sorry -- there's a difference 9 between the 1763 edition and the 1777 edition. 10 Q And the 1772 as well, which is in front of you here? 11 A Well, yes. The 1772 and '77 are similar. 12 MR. RUSH: All right, thank you. 13 THE COURT: Would this be convenient to adjourn, Mr. Rush? 14 MR. RUSH: Thank you, my lord. 15 THE COURT: Thank you. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court is adjourned for a short 17 recess. 18 19 (MORNING RECESS TAKEN AT 11:15) 20 21 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 22 a true and accurate transcript of the 23 proceedings herein transcribed to the 24 best of my skill and ability 25 26 27 28 29 Graham D. Parker 30 Official Reporter 31 United Reporting Service Ltd. 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 20094 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 CROSS-EXA 4 MR. RUSH: 5 Q 6 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 27 A 28 29 30 31 THE COURT 32 A 33 34 MR. RUSH: 35 A 36 37 MR. RUSH: 38 THE COURT 39 40 MR. RUSH: 41 A 42 THE COURT 43 MR. RUSH: 44 Q 45 46 47 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS) EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH: (Continued) Dr. Farley, if you will refer to the Bowen, 1763, the photographic copy, and you have the Bowen 1777 and 1772 maps in front of you as well? Yes. I just ask you to agree with me, if you can, that Kristono Lake, and the Assiniboils Lake, which appears north of what I think you will agree is Lake Nipigon on Bowen's 1763 map, that those are no longer depicted in that location on the 1772 or 1777 maps? Yes, that's correct. Thank you. Now if you will just keep the maps in front of you, if you look at the 1777 map, that's the last of the three in front of you, you will see in the upper left hand corner it says "parts unknown"? Yes. And there appears Lake Ouinipigon or Winnipeg? Yes. And you will see the at top edge of the maps, Ox Head Strait? Yes. And I think you have agreed that the place and the depiction of that lake is the modern Lake Winnipeg? Yes, that I believe was the intent there to represent information for the, what I have referred to in earlier testimony as the Great Lakes, this is the location, my lord. : Just that one and not this one? Well, there is a reference a moment ago, my lord, to Lake Kristono, which is shown Lake Kristono, I referred him to the Bowen 1763. This would be the counterpart to modern day Lake Nipigon. And that's Lake Ouinipigon. : And what you're talking about the present Lake Winnipeg is this one. That's shown on the 1777 map? Yes. : Thank you. The point I wanted to come to, Dr. Farley, was that by 1777 Bowen had placed Lake Winnipeg at a geographic location quite different from where he placed it in his map of 1763? 20095 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A ' 2 3 4 1 5 Q 6 7 i 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 15 16 Q 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 MR. GOLDIE 24 MR. RUSH: 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 33 A 34 35 Q 36 37 38 A 39 Q 40 41 A 42 Q 43 i 44 45 i 46 47 A Well, on the 1763 there is a reference to, well which we would say was the name, the early name given to Lake Winnipeg, and on the 1777 map the location is different. Yes. And now, if you look at the 1777 map, Dr. Farley, you will notice that just to the right of Lake Winnipeg there is an inscription and this says "these parts according to Mr. Jeremy are..." "...are more temperate than Hudson's." Hudson's Bay? Right. Do you know who Mr. Jeremy was? I cannot recall whether Jeremy was associated with the French expedition in that area or whether he was with the York Factory group, the British group. All right. Well, Dr. Farley, I apologize for doing this, I am going to place yet another map in front of you and I would like you to keep the three that are there. And, hopefully, this will all become clear at the end of the day. Now, Dr. Farley, I am placing, fortunately, a more handable size of a map, by Mr. Buache again. : Is this one of your productions or ours? This is one of yours, 4916. Now Dr. Farley, you will notice that the date is 1754? Yes. And you're familiar with this map, are you? Yes. And if you look in the cartouche in the left-hand side you will note it states, and I will suggest a rendering of the French here, "Physical map showing the highest lands in the western part of Canada"? Yes, "the highest land in the western part of Canada", yes . I will just carry on with this, "where you will see the new discoveries of the French officers to the west of Lake Superior"? Yes. "With the rivers and lakes which Mr. Jeremy spoke about in his relation of Hudson's Bay"? Yes. Now, Mr. Philippe Buache, who is the maker of this map, which is the 1754 map that I now produce to you, he is the same French cartographer who drew the 1752 map that I referred you to a few moments ago, which is tab 6? The same Buache, yes. 20096 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 Q I would just like you to look, if you will, on this 2 smaller version of the Buache 1754 map, you will see 3 that it makes reference to Lake Ouinipigon, you will 4 see it runs down the right hand perimeter of the edge 5 of the lake from Lake Bourbon? 6 A Are we referring to the upper portion of the map? 7 Q No, the lower portion. You're quite right, the map is 8 divided into two parts, the lower portion of this. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Are you with me now? 11 A Yes. 12 Q That appears to be his rendering of what we know to be 13 Lake Winnipeg? 14 A Yes. Lake Ouinipigon, the upper part of Lake 15 Winnipeg. 16 Q If you will just look at the upper -- the first 17 constricture, you will see the word in French, "de la 18 tete de boeuf" or Ox Head Strait? 19 A Yes. Yes. It's a little difficult to read but I can 20 discern it. 21 Q It's the first constricture in that sequence of 22 figures depicting the map? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And you will see to the right of Lake Winnipeg appears 25 the phrase, it's sort of up and to the right, it's in 26 French, it says or begins, "pays beaucoup"? 27 A Yes. 2 8 Q Are you with me now? 29 A Yes. 30 Q Do you agree that this states "these parts, according 31 to Mr. Jeremy, are more temperate than Hudson's Bay"? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Now, I am asking you now, Dr. Farley, if when you 34 refer back to Bowen's 1772 and 1777 maps, can you 35 agree with me that it is likely that Buache was the 36 source of the information regarding Mr. Jeremy that 37 appears on his maps of 1777 and '72? 38 A Yes, either Buache directly or indirectly, if you 39 follow me. It may have been the same information that 40 Buache had available to him. 41 Q All right. But certainly I guess you would agree that 42 in -- that Bowen would have had available to him the 43 Buache map of 1772? 44 A Well, it's certainly persuasive from what we see on 45 the maps. 46 Q All right. If you look at the Buache 1752 map again, 47 you will notice there is on the left-hand side of the 20097 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 A 3 Q 4 THE COURT 5 MR. RUSH: 6 THE COURT 7 MR. RUSH: 8 9 MR. GOLDI 10 THE COURT 11 MR. RUSH: 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 Q 26 27 28 A 29 MR. RUSH: 30 31 32 THE COURT 33 34 35 36 THE COURT 37 38 39 A 40 THE COURT 41 A 42 THE COURT 43 A 44 45 46 47 map a, in French, a depiction called "Mer de l'ouest"? Yes. And that of course would be Western Sea. : You said 1752. Yes, my lord, it's the smaller map. : I wrote down 1774. 1754. No, this, excuse me, my lord, it was -- I misspoke, it's 1754. H: Yes. : All right. That you. And on the left hand side of the map, my lord, you will see the depiction "Mer de l'ouest" and I think the witness agreed that's Western Sea? Yes. And, Dr. Farley, will you agree with me that the figures that are shown between the sea, the Western Sea, depicted on this map and Lac Bourbon, represent a chain of mountains? Yes, there is a representation of terrain there of what we would take to be an elevation of some sort, we don't know whether they are really mountains or what, but certainly higher than the adjacent area we would expect from that representation. All right. Thank you. And to your knowledge, Dr. Farley, was Buache one of those cartographers who believed in the De Fonte account? Yes, he did. Now my lord, I would like to ask that this smaller 1754 Buache be marked as the next exhibit and inserted as tab 8 so that would be 1154-8? : Yes. (EXHIBIT 1154-8 BUACHE MAP) : Before you leave it, doctor, north of the Mer de l'ouest, there is another lake, and I can't read that, it says Gde.--? Grand Water, I would think that would be, my lord. : What is that, that next word I haven't seen before? Lac Michinipi. : That can't relate to the Mississippi, surely? I think not, my lord, although it's a confusion in location and, well, in perception. I would say no, it's not the Mississippi, but it may well be a transposition of information from the Great Lakes area to the area north and west of Lac Bourbon, as shown on 2009? A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 this map of 17 54. 2 THE COURT: Can anyone read the French that's underneath Lac 3 Michinipi? 4 MR. RUSH: It appears to be "It is more than 300 leagues from 5 the forts and there was 600 leagues..." I am sorry, 6 600 -- 7 MR. GOLDIE: It's not leagues. 8 MR. RUSH: 600 in total, perhaps, or altogether. 9 Q Dr. Farley, I would just like to ask you, does that 10 reference to Lake Michinipi, is that not a reference 11 to the De Fonte accounts? 12 A I think not. I would have to reflect back on the De 13 Fonte narrative. I think not. I would have to give a 14 qualified no to that. 15 Q All right. Now, I would ask you to look back to the 16 1777 Bowen map, and I am still directing your 17 attention to the inset. 18 THE REGISTRAR: Is that tab 7? 19 MR. RUSH: No, the Buache 1754 is tab 8. 20 THE REGISTRAR: What is tab 7? 21 MR. RUSH: Tab 7 is the 1772 Bowen map. 22 Q Are you with me, Dr. Farley? 23 A Yes. 24 Q You will see in the inset in 1772, and as well in 1777 25 on these Bowen maps, in the -- 26 A Excuse me. That's not relevant. 1777 I have and the 27 1772, yes. 28 Q Now, do you see the reference to Lac De Fonte? 29 A Yes, on the 1777, yes, I can just -- it's almost 30 illegible. 31 Q You see what it says on the Bowen 1777 that Lac De 32 Fonte, all these discoveries are imaginary? 33 A Yes. 34 Q Do you agree with me from that that Bowen rejected the 35 theoretical geography of Buache? 36 A It would seem so, based on this statement on the map. 37 I would say, probably, he did reject the notion, but 38 as I pointed out in earlier testimony, these old 39 ideas, even though they were based in imagination, 40 died hard. 41 Q All right. Looking at the 1772 Bowen, Dr. Farley, do 42 you see that some of the lines, at least the line 43 along what appears to be the Mississippi, is bolded on 44 the — 45 A We are not in the inset any more, we are on the main 4 6 map? 47 Q Yes, I am now referring you to the Bowen 1772, and can 20099 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 A 4 5 6 7 8 Q 9 10 A 11 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 THE COURT 17 18 A 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. RUSH: 26 Q 27 28 29 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 38 39 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 you agree with me that the Mississippi appears to be bolded there? Yes, it's in -- it appears to be in bold line work. I assume that's not colour, looking at the rest of the map. Some of it may be. But I think in this case -- well, I am not sure. It may be a colour on the -- say red on the original. All right. Do you know what that represents, if anything? Well, as I have just pointed out, if it's in colour, it would represent some kind of boundary. And do you see that there are other straight lines above the St. Lawrence River that don't appear to follow the topographic feature? That would appear to be a boundary of some kind. : That Mississippi bold line, do I read that correctly that it shows it flowing out of Red Lake? Yes, my lord. Red Lake is shown as you see in the bold line, and if I may, my lord, if you look to the left of Red Lake, although the lettering is very difficult to read, I think it says "Mississippi R. whose head is uncertain or unknown." And then beyond that a dotted line with the label "conjectural" shown on it. Now, Dr. Farley, what I would like to ask you to look at is, if you look at the 1777 Bowen map, which is your map 16, you will see that there is a dashed line that runs south out of Red Lake, do you see that? Yes. Yes, a dashed line, quite right. And it seems to parallel the Mississippi? Yes. Now, I want to ask you if you will again -- you still have the 1763 Bowen present with you? Yes. Now, if you will just refer to -- I am going to ask you to look at, you will see in the upper left hand corner of the Bowen 1763, a reference to "parts unknown"? Yes. And then you will see a reference to a line that appears to be the 50th degree north latitude? Yes. May I just scan this to be sure? Yes. Yes, south of the 50th parallel. And you will see an inscription there and it says over a dashed line on the Bowen 1763, it says: "The 20100 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 A 5 Q 6 7 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 29 THE COURT 30 A 31 32 THE COURT 33 MR. RUSH: 34 Q 35 36 37 38 39 40 A 41 42 Q 43 THE COURT 44 45 A 46 THE COURT 47 A southern boundary of Hudson's Bay Company territories settled by Calverez after the Treaty of Utrecht", do you see that? Yes. And if you look at the 1772 map, you will notice that there appears to be the same inscription on the Bowen 1772 map? Yes. Do you see that? Yes. And if you look at the 1777 map, that dashed line and that inscription no longer appear; is that correct? That's correct. And still looking at the 1777 Bowen map, number 16, Dr. Farley, just keeping that in front of you, I wanted you to look at James, the representation for James Bay on that 1777 Bowen. Yes. And do you see a line to the lower, just to the lower left, or it would be the southeast of that, appears to be a heavy line and then over that line is Lands Height? Yes. Do you see that on the 1777 Bowen? Yes. Would that refer to a height of land? Well, that's what the label indicates, Lands Height, so it -- : I am sorry, I haven't found that. My lord, in this location, that bold line and then Lands Height, it's a little hard to read. : I see. Thank you. And if you look at the 1772 map, Dr. Farley, the one that I -- it's tab 7, do you have that there? It's the smaller of the two. Yes, I think you have it. This is the Bowen 1772. And looking in the same place, south and east of James Bay, do you see a dashed line which says Height of Land or Lands Height? I see the label Lands Height and a segment of a dashed line, yes. Right. : That's not far from where you put it on this drainage map, is it? That's correct, my lord. : It's approximately right? Yes. 20101 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 MR. RUSH 2 Q 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 16 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 24 25 26 27 MR. GOLD 28 MR. RUSH 29 Q 30 31 A 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 MR. RUSH 38 39 40 41 42 43 Q 44 45 A 46 Q 47 Dr. Farley, I am going to just make things somewhat less complicated for you, I am going to take away the 1777 map now and I am just going to ask you to keep the -- I am sorry, the 1772, I am going to be not referring to that again. I ask that that be tab 7, 1154-7 and there will be no need to refer to the photographic version of the 1763 Bowen. However, keeping your map 16 in front of you, I want to refer you to -- I want to refer you to another map, firstly, to the map at tab 24? In the folio of maps? Yes, in your folio of maps. If you will just agree with me -- I am just going to be referring it to the witness briefly. You identified this as a Faden map of 1785? 1785. And this is in the witness's folio of maps, map 24. All right? Yes. Now, if you will just keep that. Now, my lord, I am going to show the witness a map, now, this map, my lord, I can advise my friends, has not been disclosed, not disclosed on any of the lists, and it has just come to my knowledge, and I am going to ask Dr. Farley if he can identify this map? 3: I am waiving my objection, my lord. Now, Dr. Farley, this is a Faden map, you can see from the cartouche? Yes. In the bottom right hand corner, entitled colonies knees in North America" and it's Yes. Now, are you familiar with this map, sir? Yes, this is a fairly well-known Faden map. My lord, I would like this map to be the next exhibit. It's 1154-9 to be inserted in the volume of documents. (EXHIBIT 1154-9 FADEN MAP OF 1777) I want to ask you, Dr. Farley, to examine the Faden map of 17 7 7 and the Bowen map of 1777? Yes. All right. Now, just before I ask you about the maps themselves, can you agree with me that Faden was "the British dated 1777? 20102 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 A 4 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 10 11 A 12 13 ] 14 15 Q 16 17 MR. GOLDIE 18 : MR. RUSH: 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 i 26 27 ] 28 29 Q 30 31 32 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 Q 38 A ' 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 Q 46 47 A another English cartographer and an associate of Thomas Jefferys? Yes, I believe they worked in co-operation at one stage. Is it your recollection that in fact Faden took over from Jefferys's business after he died? Yes. Now, if you will examine the two maps, the Bowen 1777, your number 16, and the map I have just handed to you, which is now 1154-9, both of the same date? Yes. When I say yes, I must recall that in the preparation of the American atlas, some of the plates may have been prepared some years before but the atlas is dated, the second edition, 1776-'77. Now, you don't have any particular knowledge about when this map was engraved? : Which is this? Map 9, 1154-9. That is the Faden map? The designations confuse me. The Faden map? Are you referring to the one that I have included? No, the other. The other 1777. I don't know when the plate was made for that. Obviously the date is indicated and one has to go with that or marginal information, and if there was marginal information, it's not -- I can't read anything on it that would suggest it. I am just asking you to compare now the two maps, the Bowen 1777 and the Faden 1777, and if you look in the upper or northwest corner of the map, you will see a reference to Lake Winnipeg? Yes. And do you agree with me that the representation of Lake Winnipeg on the two maps is virtually identical? I can't say it's identical. They are similar. They appear to be in relatively the same place? Well, let me -- can we learn from this map -- longitude west from London, so he has said, the westing is in 105 degrees whereas on the Bowen, it's -- no, they are not in the same westing. There is some difference between the two in that respect. And in the northing, there is a little difference, not a great deal. Relatively speaking, given those qualifications, they are in approximately the same place? Roughly the same location. And, again, the shapes are 20103 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 somewhat different. 2 Q Now, I want to direct your attention, Dr. Farley, to 3 the black, the bold black line that runs south of 4 James Bay, you see that it comes in a semi-circular, 5 irregular shape south of James Bay? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Running from 70 longitude to about 97? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you will see where 95 longitude on the Faden map 10 appears the land, it's indicated the Lands Height? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Now, in terms of the height of land, as you have 13 depicted it on your drainage, is that not -- 14 A Excuse me. As I have depicted it on the map here? 15 Q Yes. I am just wondering if you can confirm that that 16 is relatively where the height of land is located? 17 A Yes. Well, this map on the display board is 18 generalized but certainly the red line on that map is 19 at that level of generalization in the correct 20 location. 21 Q But the — 22 MR. GOLDIE: I don't think he had finished. 2 3 MR. RUSH: 24 Q Go ahead. 25 A Would you mind restating the question? 26 Q Yes. I am just saying that my question is that in 27 terms of this black line as shown on this map, the 28 Faden depicts the height of land apparently where that 29 black line is shown? 30 A Yes, from the very label on it, I would say that the 31 cartographer believed that that's where the height of 32 land lay, the divide, if you will. 33 Q If you look at the 1777 Bowen map, and I drew your 34 attention to Lands Height on that, do you see that, 35 Dr. Farley? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And I think you said that you saw a portion of that 38 south to southeast of James Bay? 39 A Right. 4 0 Q And would you agree with me that where Bowen places 41 the Lands Height in his 1777 map that it's relatively 42 in the same place that Faden places it in his 1777 43 map? 44 A Yes, approximately the same. There are obvious 45 differences but approximately the same. 46 THE COURT: It looks quite different to me, is that just because 47 of scale? 20104 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A 2 THE COURT 3 4 5 6 A 7 8 THE COURT 9 A 10 11 MR. RUSH: 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 17 18 THE COURT 19 MR. RUSH: 20 Q 21 22 23 24 A 25 Q 26 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 34 Q 35 36 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 43 44 A 45 46 Q 47 Sorry, my lord? : I see the height of land dipping to the southwest, west of the north point of Lake Superior, where this one seems to be running north? Is that just a matter of scale? Excuse me, my lord, I was trying to compare the Bowen 1777 and the Faden 1777. : You're not comparing it with your drainage map then? In that last answer, no, my lord. My understanding was that the question -- Yes, you're quite correct, Dr. Farley, I was asking you to compare Faden's 1777 and Bowen's 1777 and your answers related to that. Is it appropriate for me to ask the court, did you wish me to make the comparison, my lord, between these two early maps -- : No, no, I can do that. Dr. Farley, referring to Faden 1777, again, you will see that just above the 45 degree latitude on the left hand and northwest portion of this map there is a reference to White Bear Lake? I am sorry, I am not -- I am not tracked. I will assist you. If we look at Faden's 1777, and in the upper left hand corner, northwest corner, there is a reference to White Bear Lake? Yes. And you will see what appears to be a bolded line along what appears to be the Mississippi, can you agree with me that that is the Mississippi? I don't see any labels on the map to the contrary, so I would assume that to be the Mississippi. Well, you will see just at the 45 degree latitude marked there is a statement, "Thusfar the Mississippi has been as..."? Ascended. "Ascended"? Yes. It would appear from this map that the -- if White Bear Lake is the -- is the source of the Mississippi as depicted on this map that it runs at about 46 degree north latitude? Yes, about 46 degrees with a tributary extending into that lake from the west. And do you -- yes. Now you see the bold black line running down what appears to be the Mississippi and it 20105 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 A 5 THE COURT 6 MR. RUSH: 7 8 9 10 11 12 THE COURT 13 MR. RUSH: 14 Q 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 THE COURT 22 MR. RUSH: 23 Q 24 25 26 A 27 Q 28 29 30 31 32 THE COURT 33 MR. RUSH: 34 MR. RUSH: 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 41 A 42 Q 43 44 45 A 46 Q 47 A joins with an irregular line going off to the northeast and that would be the junction with the Ohio, would it? The Ohio, yes. : This map doesn't show the month, does it? It does, my lord. Yes, if you find the junction of the Ohio and the Mississippi and you run north from that junction about an inch and a half, you will see the month of the river depicted and then it runs off to the north, northwest off the end of the map at the border, just below 45 degree latitude. : Yes, I see it. Thank you. All right. Dr. Farley, thank you. I can now ask you if we can set these maps aside. I am going to be directing the witness's attention, and I won't be referring to this map, Bowen's 1777 again. Now Dr. Farley, I wanted to refer you to the Henry Briggs map in your folio, 1625, and that's number three in your folio. : Number three? Yes, my lord. Now, Dr. Farley, I think you have agreed with me that it was the English who were most interested in finding a water passage to China? Yes. And if you look at the Henry Briggs map, number three, numbered or dated 1625, if you look at the cartouche, and it's in the upper left hand corner, and can you agree with me that if reads as follows: "The north part of America" then it continues -- : Containing? Sorry, my lord. Are you with me, Dr. Farley? Yes. Conveying? C-O-N-T-E-Y-N-I-N-G, containing. "Newfoundland, New England, Virginia, Florida, New Spain and New France"? Nova Francia, yes. New France, sorry. "With the rich islands of Hispanola, Cuba, Jamaica, Peurto Rico on the south and upon the west large and goodly land of California"? Yes. "The bonds of it are the Atlantic ocean, on ye..." Yes, on the south. 20106 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 12 13 A 14 15 16 Q 17 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 26 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 37 Q 38 39 40 41 A 42 MR. RUSH 43 MR. GOLD 44 45 46 MR. RUSH 47 And east? East sides. "On east sides, ye south sea on ye west side"? Yes. "And on ye north Freton Hudson's Bay"? Yes. "A fair entrance to ye nearest and most temperate passage to Japan and China? Yes. It's clear from the map that Briggs believes that there is a passage to Japan and China across North America? Yes, as I indicated in earlier testimony, that would be the thrust of the statements that he makes on -- regarding the tides in Hudson's Bay. Now, I have asked you on previous days, over a week ago, Dr. Farley, about the Juan de Fuca accounts, and I wonder if you can tell us if you know who is responsible for publishing the de Fuca story? I think it was Michael Lok. Michael Lok was the one who recounted it but was it not Samuel Purchas who in fact published it? Yes. Now, I want to direct your attention, Dr. Farley, to a treatise on the question of the northwest passage and this is by Glyndwr Williams. Are you familiar with the work of Glyndwr Williams? I know of it. Now, I am showing you a document, Dr. Farley, which is a treatise by Glyndwr Williams entitled "The British Search for the Northwest Passage in the Eighteenth Century." Yes. Are you familiar with this work? As I said, I am acquainted with it. I can't say I am familiar with all the detail in it. This was published in 1962, Dr. Farley, so it would have pre-dated your thesis. But I assume, and I think you have agreed with me that you would be in your field acquainted with Glyndwr Williams? Yes. I would like this marked as 1054 -- 3: Your lordship has ruled that it is not necessary to mark treatises but they can be referred to in argument. And we have a document running to 2 82 -- There is extracts from this document. I do want it mashed as an exhibit. 20107 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE MR. THE MR. THE COURT MR. RUSH COURT: I don't understand to have ruled, Mr. Goldie, that treatises could not be -- GOLDIE: Which were cited in the bibliography or the witness accepted. COURT: Well, I am not sure I was even that specific. But I may have been. Is there some problem, some objection to it having it marked so I have it conveniently together? GOLDIE: No, it's just that the witness has said he is not familiar with it and there is something like, as I say, 282 pages. But I endeavoured to provide that a document wouldn't be kept out on the veto of a witness who doesn't -- not that this witness rejects it, it's just that he isn't fully familiar with it. And it seems to me that his lack of detailed knowledge of it wouldn't keep it out. GOLDIE: No, I am not suggesting that this is not available to my friend, I am just suggesting that marking the entire document as an exhibit is unnecessary. I think it probably will turn out to be unnecessary, but it will certainly be convenient to have it in one place and for that reason I think it should be marked as the next exhibit in Mr. Rush's book of documents. Yes, book of documents on cross-examination. Thank you. (EXHIBIT 1154-10: EXCERPT FROM TREATISE ENTITLED THE BRITISH SEARCH FOR THE NORTHWEST PASSAGE IN THE EIGHTEENTH CENTURY) MR. THE COURT MR. RUSH: Q A Q A Dr. Farley, I -- do you have the volume? It's a little awkward for Dr. Farley to deal with here. If you could just insert that in there perhaps. Dr. Farley, before I direct you to this work, you know Dr. Williams to be a professor of history at London University? Yes, I think at London. British university, anyway. And you know him to be a leading authority in the history of northern exploration in North America? He has done a lot of work in that area as I understand it, yes. Now, Dr. Farley, in Appendix 1 of this work, and it's not in front of you now, but I simply want to -- it states this is an appendix with regard to the voyage of Juan de Fuca, and it states here that -- 2010? A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 THE COURT 2 3 4 5 6 MR. RUSH: 7 THE COURT 8 MR. RUSH: 9 THE COURT 10 MR. RUSH: 11 Q 12 13 14 MR. GOLDI 15 THE COURT 16 A 17 MR. RUSH: 18 19 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 26 A 27 Q 28 29 30 31 32 33 THE COURT 34 MR. RUSH: 35 Q 36 37 38 A 39 Q 40 41 A 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q : Can you excuse me a moment, Mr. Rush? I am having a terrible time putting it together because the holes don't line up. And I am not sure I am going to be able to follow you. Are you going to be referring to a page number? Yes, I will be. Perhaps I should wait. : All right. What page, please? I am going to be referring to 273. : Yes. Dr. Farley, this merely confirms, I think, the evidence you have already given and I am quoting from page 273 at tab 10. £: Perhaps the witness may have it in front of him. : Page? Page? 273, it's the top line and it indicates: "Purchas printed the account of the Fuca voyage, given to him by the English merchant Michael Lok, in the fourth book of the second part of Hakluytus Posthumus or Purchas His Pilgrimes, published in 1625." Yes. I am simply showing that to you to confirm the evidence which you have given, that accords with your research? Yes. All right. Now, Dr. Farley, I am going to be making reference to some maps and to Professor Williams's article, and I just want you to keep the two handy, side by side. And the first one I would like to refer you to is de l'isle map of 1752, this is your map folio number 19. : Sorry, map 17? Map 19 in Dr. Farley's folio. Now, if you will just keep the map handy, Dr. Farley, I think you have identified this as de l'isle 1752 map? Yes. Showing the discoveries of Admiral De Fonte and other Spanish, English and Russian navigators? Yes. I think it says in the search for the passage to the South Sea? Yes. And it's by Mr. de l'isle, 1752? Yes. Now, Dr. Farley, the maker of this map was J. N. de 20109 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 l'isle? 2 A Yes, de l'isle the younger. 3 Q And J. N. de l'isle was the younger brother of 4 Guillaume de l'isle? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And you have made reference in your testimony to 7 Guillaume de l'isle as the author of the 1703 map, I 8 think? 9 A Yes. 10 Q All right. Now, is your -- I want to understand your 11 knowledge of J. N. de l'isle, is it not the case that 12 J. N. de l'isle had been a cartographer attached to 13 the Russian Court? 14 A Yes, The Chancery of Military Marine. 15 Q Now, what I would like to do, Dr. Farley, if you would 16 just look to page 143 of Dr. Williams's account, and 17 if you turn to Dr. Williams at 143, he says about J. 18 N. de l'isle at the top of the page: "In April, 1750 19 de l'isle read a paper on the Russian explorations 20 before the Academie Royale des Sciences in Paris, and 21 presented it with a manuscript map drawn by Buache to 22 illustrate the memoir. France in the 18th century was 23 the centre of scientific cartography, just as Holland 24 had been in the previous century, and Britain was to 25 be in the next; and the publication two years later of 26 the memoir map marked the beginning of a controversy 27 which exercised a bizzare but important influence upon 28 the course of exploration along the Pacific coast of 29 North America, and the search for the Northwest 30 Passage." 31 Now, in respect to Dr. Williams's statements of 32 fact and conclusions, do you agree with those that are 33 set out in those passages? 34 A With this statement you have just read, yes, I agree 35 with that. 36 Q All right. Now, Dr. Farley, you will agree with me 37 that the de l'isle map shows J. N. de l'isle 38 depictions of the voyages of Bering and Chirikov? 39 A Yes. 40 Q And I think you will agree that when referring to J. 41 N. de l'Isle's map he depicts Mount St. Elisias on 42 this map, does he not? 43 A Yes, I thought it was indicated here. I thought that 44 Mount St. Elisias was here but I don't see it. 45 Q Now, Dr. Farley, I want to refer you to another, if 46 you will just keep the J. N. de l'isle map present, I 47 want to refer you to another treatise and that -- can 20110 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 you identify this, Dr. Farley, as Gerhard Muller's 2 account of the Bering voyage? 3 A Yes. 4 Q The reports from Russia? 5 A Yes, translated, yes. 6 Q You are familiar with this work? 7 A Yes. 8 MR. RUSH: All right. I would like that to be marked as the 9 next exhibit, 1054-11, and inserted in the binder. 10 MR. GOLDIE: This is a portion, is it? 11 MR. RUSH: This is an extract and I will be directing the 12 witnesses a portions in it. 13 THE REGISTRAR: 1154 tab 11. 14 (EXHIBIT 1154-11: TREATISE - BERING VOYAGES FROM 15 RUSSIA) 16 Q What I would like you to do, Dr. Farley, is to look at 17 the map that Muller appends to this, and do you have 18 the map? It's on page 35. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Now, my lord, what I have done, I have obtained a copy 21 of this map from the National Archives and I have one 22 actual copy and I have photocopies for my friends. 23 THE COURT: This is 1731, is it? 24 MR. RUSH: Yes, it's the map 1731, that's right. 25 Q Dr. Farley, what I would really like you to do is if 2 6 you will agree with me that the map I am about to show 27 you is the same map shown in Muller's account of the 28 Russian voyages? 29 A Yes, this translation of the German. It's not the 30 original. 31 Q Yes. 32 MR. GOLDIE: Well, I am sorry, what was my friend's question 33 again, please? 34 MR. RUSH: Actually Dr. Farley answered a different question, 35 and I will ask him that. 36 Q Muller did a translation of the Russian, did he not? 37 A Yes, Muller was in the employ, yes, he would have -- 38 he would have presumably done the original in German 39 and then made -- no, he prepared the original, sorry, 40 he prepared the original in the Russian with the 41 Russian nomenclature and that was translated into 42 French and also English. 43 Q Do you recall who did the translation into English? 44 A Jefferys, I think. 45 Q That was Jefferys, wasn't it? 46 A Yes. 47 Q And in terms of this treatise, did the translation of 20111 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Muller for the purposes of this publication in 19 -- whenever it is -- A 1962, was it? Q '62. All right. Now, I would ask you to look at page 35 of the Muller map, and I am going to ask you if you can just compare it to the photocopy of the map that I have here, which is an enhanced version of it, and I would ask you if you can agree with me that it's the same? MR. GOLDIE: Surely there has to be something in between the two, my lord. The inscriptions on the map on page 35 of the extract from the treatise are hand printed and the one that my friend has placed before the witness is machine printed or engraved, I will put it that way. There must be something in between. I am not raising any objection but it's evident on its face that there is something in between. Yes. Well, somebody has obviously hand drawn this map on page 35 and I suppose your question, Mr. Rush, is from whence the information came? Yes, it will be. I would first like the witness to clarify the two maps and in terms of the areas shown, not all of it is shown in the same way, Dr. Farley, but in terms of the area shown and the names given to various features, can you agree that the two maps are showing the same area? A Yes, they show the same general area of the lands about the north Pacific. I notice one exception on the prints from the archives the route of St. Antoine, and I can't read the date, is not shown on the copy. THE COURT: Should we give the doctor over lunch to look at it and see what he can -- so that he can compare it? MR. RUSH: Yes. (Proceedings adjourned for lunch) I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein to the best of my skill and ability. MR. RUSH: THE COURT MR. RUSH: Wilf Roy Official Reporter 20112 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00) 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 4 THE COURT: May I just mention that Saturday, October 14th and 5 21st, are all right with me, as is October 18th, but 6 Thursday the 19th is the evening of the Leon Ladner 7 lecture, which is this year the Chief Justice of 8 Australia, which is in the Great Hall, and I'm 9 committed at the moment to attend that, followed by a 10 social event. I would like to suggest, if possible, 11 some other date than the 19th, but I'll leave that for 12 counsel to talk about tomorrow, thank you. Mr. Rush. 13 MR. RUSH: 14 Q Yes. Now, Dr. Farley, I had drawn your attention to 15 the J.N. De L'isle map appearing at -- in volume 16 "Bering's Voyages, Reports From Russia" by Muller? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you have that map in front of you, do you? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And you will see that the map is described on page 35 21 of that volume as a map drawn in 1731? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And I'm translating from the French there? 24 A Yes. 25 Q To be used in the search for lands and seas situated 26 in the north of the South Sea? 27 A Yes. 2 8 Q All right. And do you agree with me that this map was 29 used by Bering on his 1731 Russian expedition to 30 Kamchatka? 31 A On his expedition to Kamchatka or -- 32 Q Yes? 33 A Yes. He -- yes. It would have been available to him. 34 I'm thinking of the dates of the -- that was the only 35 reason for my hesitation. He didn't sail from 36 Kamchatka until 1741, so there's no reason to assume 37 that he would not have had access to the De L'isle 38 information. 39 Q Dr. Farley, the map -- the individual map that I 40 handed to you and asked you to compare to the 41 handwritten map, which is in the Muller translation, 42 or the Urness translation of Muller, can you compare 43 the two, would you agree with me that in terms of what 44 is generally depicted that they represent the same 45 features and descriptions and the title is the same as 46 used in the volume by Muller? 47 A I will have to check the title in a moment to answer 20113 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 Q 6 7 8 9 A 10 Q 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 THE COURT 32 MR. RUSH: 33 Q 34 35 36 A 37 38 Q 39 40 41 42 A 43 Q 44 45 A 46 THE COURT 47 MR. RUSH: your points in turn. Yes, the same earth area, and the general configuration of the features is similar, clearly again the lettering is different, but the names, so far as I can see, are the same. All right. Now, by reference to either or both, Dr. Farley, can you agree with me that in the map where it begins on the map "Pays soumis", and I'm here referring to the upper left-hand corner of the map -- Yes. -- that it by translation refers to "The country in submission to His Imperial Majesty of all the Russias"? Yes. And then below that translated "Domination of the Emperor of China"? Yes. And on the right-hand side, beginning across Hudson Bay and continuing from the eastern seaboard to Newfoundland, you see what translates as "English Lands", and I think if you tip -- Excuse me. Tip the map right on its side, it's on the right-hand border? Yes. I was looking at the small scale copy. So we're down at Newfoundland? At the right-hand border of the map? Yes. You will see it says "Terre Anglois", or "English Lands"? I'm sorry, I can't -- : Right at the very bottom. If you turn it on its side, you will see here it's faint, but it may be -- you may be able to see it better on the sketch map? But this is for -- this is for California -- sorry, it's not on the smaller scale. All right, thank you. It doesn't appear to have come out in the copy, but let me ask you, Dr. Farley, do you see the words across the central body of North America, "Pays soumis a la France"? Yes. And would you say that translates as "Country in submission to France"? Yes. I think that's the correct translation. : I haven't found the English. Well, my lord -- 20114 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 MR. GOLDI 2 MR. RUSH: 3 4 5 6 THE COURT 7 MR. RUSH: 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 MR. RUSH: 20 Q 21 22 23 24 25 26 A 27 Q 28 29 A 30 31 MR. RUSH: 32 THE COURT 33 MR. RUSH: 34 THE COURT 35 MR. RUSH: 36 Q 37 38 39 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 THE COURT 45 A 46 THE COURT 47 MR. RUSH: £: It's not on the small map, my lord. Well, my lord, it appears if you turn it on its side, my lord, it appears there, but it's not very legible. It appears -- it runs up where Newfoundland and Labrador would be located. : Yes. All right, Dr. Farley, thank you. I would like, my lord, the extract from the Urness book to be marked as 1154-11 and placed at tab 11, and the printed reproduction of the map of 1741 of De L'isle to be placed at tab 12 and marked 1154-12. (EXHIBIT 1154-11 - Treatise - Bering's voyages, The Reports From Russia) (EXHIBIT 1154-12 - Enlargement of map in Exhibit 1154-11) Now, Dr. Farley, you're at tab 19, Dr. Farley, and I want to again direct your attention to the J.N. De L'isle map of 1752. Now, on the west coast of America do you see the French phrase "Entrance discovered by Juan de Fuca in 1592 at about the 47th or 48th parallel"? Yes. And next to that are the words "Mer de la ouest", or "Sea of the West"? Yes. On the sea, on the indentation of the land it's shown. Yes. : What map are you on, please? I'm at 19, my lord. : Yes, thank you. This is J.N. De L'Isle's map of 1752. You were referred to this in your testimony, Dr. Farley, and you see the -- I think you referred to it as the abeyment of Sea of the West? Yes. And you see that underneath that in French it says "Discovered and crossed by Juan de Fuca in 1592"? Yes. I think that's the correct translation. : Where do you see that? In this location, my lord. : Oh, yes, thank you. 20115 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 Q And you will notice above that there are the Lac Du 2 Fonte is located above the Sea of the West? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And it indicates what appears to be a passage from the 5 Hudson's Bay to the Pacific? 6 A Via Lac Du Fonte? 7 Q Yes? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And these were part of the discoveries of Admiral Du 10 Fonte, so called? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Now, you are -- I think you agree that the Du Fonte 13 account was popularized in Britain? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And are you aware of one of its main publicists, 16 Arthur Dobbs? 17 A Yes. 18 Q All right. Dr. Farley, I would ask you, if you would, 19 just turn to page 31 in tab 10 of the Williams 20 article? 21 A May I have the — 22 Q Yes. It's in the volume again. Now, just turning to 23 tab 10 and 31 — 24 A Yes. 25 Q And Dr. Farley, beginning at the second full sentence 26 on 31, it says: "The new enthusiast was Arthur 27 Dobbs" -- 28 A Excuse me. Beginning at -- oh, yes, thank you. 29 Q 30 "a wealthy Ulster landowner and a member of the 31 Irish House of Commons. By 1729 his early 32 interest in Irish trade had widened to include the 33 commerce of Britain and the Colonies; and he 34 wrote a long memorandum in which he called for a 35 more vigorous colonial policy, and outlined plans 36 for containing, and then seizing, French 37 possessions in North America. While engaged in 38 this work Dobbs had read the journals of the 39 explorers of the continent, and gradually his 40 curiosity about their discoveries turned into a 41 conviction that the entrance of the Northwest 42 Passage might yet be discovered the west coast 43 of Hudson Bay. For 20 years Dobbs waged a 44 dedicated, and at times single-handed campaign in 45 support of this belief; and his promotion of two 46 expeditions to Hudson Bay at a time when there was 47 little general interest in exploration was a 20116 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 remarkable achievement. The first step in this 2 campaign was the drafting in 1731 of a 70-page 3 memorial which remains one of the most coherent 4 and persuasive statements of the case for a 5 Northwest Passage." 6 7 A Yes. 8 Q Now, Dr. Farley, do you agree with that description of 9 Arthur Dobbs' and Arthur Dobbs' purpose of attempting 10 to mount an exploration for the Northwest Passage? 11 A Yes. He was one of the great proponents of a renewed 12 search for the Northwest Passage. 13 Q And Arthur Dobbs himself was influenced by the 14 accounts of the voyage of Du Fonte? 15 A He seems to have been, yes. 16 Q I just -- I would like you to, if you can, to turn to 17 page 80 of the text of Messr. Williams? 18 A Page 80? 19 MR. RUSH: 80, again discussing Dobbs. I would just like to 20 refer you to the first full paragraph, and I will ask 21 you if you can agree with this: 22 23 "Dobbs accordingly postponed the intended 24 application to Parliament, and in an attempt to 25 create a favourable climate of opinion for his 26 designs published that year an account of the 27 Countries adjoining to Hudson's Bay. In this work 28 Dobbs skillfully dovetailed several themes: the 29 probability of a Northwest Passage (this 30 section contained the inevitable attack on 31 Middleton); the opening of the trade of the Bay, 32 the settling of Colonies inland from the Bay, and 33 in general the substitution of a forceful, 34 anti-French expansionist policy for the sluggish 35 attitude of the Hudson's Bay Company. How much 36 Dobbs knew about the activities of La Verendrye 37 and the other French explorers of the interior is 38 not certain, but his emphasis of the crucial 39 importance of the struggle between England and 40 France for the great central plain of North 41 America showed that he was more than ever 42 conscious of the danger he had first noted in his 43 memorandum to Wolpole fifteen years earlier - that 44 the enterprising French would confine English 45 traders and settlers to the narrow coastal 46 fringes east of the Appalachians and around 47 Hudson's Bay. His reading of the works of 20117 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 Jeremie, La Potherie and other French writers, 2 with their information culled from the Indians 3 about the rumoured strait leading from Hudson Bay 4 to the Pacific, and their reports about the River 5 of the West (the waterway which the French 6 overland explorers were seeking), heightened his 7 fears that the French would smell out his own 8 plans for reaching the Pacific, or perhaps 9 anticipate him by discovering a more southerly 10 route to the great ocean. Before the search for 11 the waterway to the Pacific can be seen in 12 perspective it must be remembered that while the 13 English were exploring by way of the northern 14 gateway of Hudson Strait and Bay, farther south 15 the French were pushing steadily westward in 16 search of a river which would lead them either 17 to the 'Mer de l'Ouest' or the Pacific." 18 19 I just ask you to pause there, Dr. Farley. Do you 20 agree with the account given by Professor Williams and 21 the conclusions he arrives at here? 22 MR. GOLDIE: I wonder if my friend can tell us what year this is 23 all about. It appears to be a reference -- 24 MR. RUSH: 1744. 25 MR. GOLDIE: Thank you. 26 A I'll try to answer the question. I can agree with 27 much of it, I cannot agree with all of it, not because 28 I necessarily disagree, but rather because I'm not 29 thoroughly acquainted with the political -- the 30 details of the political climate in Britain at the 31 time, so where there are references made, for example, 32 the paragraph begins "Dobbs accordingly postponed the 33 intended application to parliament". Well, I wouldn't 34 know that that was necessarily the case. In general, 35 I would say yes, it fits with my understanding of 36 Dobbs' position and his argument for the search for 37 the Northwest Passage. 38 Q All right. He goes on to talk about the Du Fonte 39 account on page 81, Dr. Farley, and then I just ask 40 you to go over to page 82, and he continues at the top 41 of 82: 42 43 "There was no way of disproving the Fonte account 44 at this time because the Pacific coast of 45 America north of latitude 43 degrees north was 46 still unknown." 47 2011? A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A Yes. 2 Q 3 "Members of Bering's second expedition had touched 4 the Alaskan coast near Mount St. Elias in 1741, 5 but news of their discovery was slow in reaching 6 Western Europe, and even though this pinprick of 7 land was later marked on the charts, vast areas 8 were still left in which the imagination of 9 geographers had full play. The Fonte letter with 10 its description of fertile and productive 11 countries stretching inland from the Pacific coast 12 of North America, was further proof to Dobbs of 13 the opportunities for trade which awaited 14 British merchants once the passage was discovered, 15 and he brushed aside the rights of the Hudson's 16 Bay Company: 'by the unaccountable behaviour of 17 the Hudson's Bay Company, the Government and 18 Parliament have a just and legal Right to lay open 19 that Trade to all Merchants in Britain. There 20 were men in England familiar with the Bay region 21 who could point out, as Middleton had done two 22 years earlier, the fallacies and over-optimism of 23 Dobbs' arguments. Captain Coats, a company 24 mariner for almost twenty-five years, grumbled in 25 the privacy of his personal journal, 'what Mr. 26 Dobbs has thought fitt to call a discription of 27 Hudson's Bay, is so erroneous, so superficial and 28 so trifling, in almost every circumstance. So 29 contrary to the experience and concurrent 30 testimony of every person who have resided in the 31 country... But while the observations of Coats, 32 Isham and other company servants lay unpublished, 33 and unread outside Company or family circles, and 34 historians were denied information about the 35 Company's activities, then the field was left open 36 for hostile propagandists and disgruntled 37 employees. With their works for long the only 38 guide to those interested, the Company almost 39 lost its case by default." 40 41 Now, again, Dr. Farley, does this account -- is this 42 consistent with your understanding of that period? 43 A Yes. It is consistent. 44 Q Now, understand, Dr. Farley, that Dobbs later became 45 Governor of North Carolina? 46 A Yes, he did at a later time. I had forgotten the 47 date. 20119 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A THE COURT MR. RUSH: Q And that he petitioned the Privy Council to help him establish an expedition to Hudson's Bay? Yes. I don't have a strong detailed recall of that, but that's certainly in my recollection. : Well, that's mentioned at the opening of page 79. MR. MR. MR. Page 79. And yes, and I'm going to direct you back to that, Dr. Farley, where at page 79 you see that he -- that is mentioned there? A Yes, right. RUSH: Now, I want to ask you, Dr. Farley, if you're aware that Henry Ellis was an associate of Arthur Dobbs. GOLDIE: In what respect? A Yes. I can't remember the connection, but the two names make, from my recollection, an association of the two. RUSH: Q A Q And an associate in respect of attempting to obtain a petition from the Privy Council for a charter like that at the Hudson's Bay Company? I have to confess, I cannot recall the detail of that. All right. I just would like you to look at page 111, Dr. Farley, of the article by Professor Williams, and to look at the full -- top full paragraph, beginning with: "The Privy Council appointed the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General to report on the petition, and whereas the Company pleaded before the two law officers that Dobbs and his merchant associates were using the question of the Northwest Passage as a pretext for attacking its charter, the Northwest Committee claimed that the Moor expedition had gone far toward discovering the passage, and hinted that, if granted a charter to trade, it would organize a further discovery expedition." And here's the passage I direct your attention to: "It was now that Ellis' account of the voyage, published in the summer of 1748, played its part. Ellis was the official apologist and historian of the expedition, and the last section of his book was characteristically entitled 'The Great Probability of a Passage'...notwithstanding the same was not actually discovered in the last 20120 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 expedition. His belief in the existence of a 2 passage was based mainly on tidal observations, 3 and he added little new to Dobbs' theories. The 4 only explanation, considered Ellis, that accounted 5 for high tides on the west coast of Hudson's Bay 6 that somewhere along that coast there was a short 7 connecting strait with the Pacific." 8 9 Now, first in respect of Ellis, does that -- does this 10 acquaint you with Ellis' association with Arthur 11 Dobbs? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And in terms of the balance of the passage with regard 14 to his belief of the existence of a Northwest Passage, 15 does that accord with your own research and 16 understanding? 17 A That accords with my understanding, yes. 18 MR. GOLDIE: My lord, I wonder if my friend could give us the 19 date of the petition that is being referred to here. 20 MR. RUSH: Well, the expedition is 1748, my lord, and I believe 21 the petition is 1749. At the beginning of the chapter 22 5 on page 109 it details that the period under 23 discussion is 1748 and 1749, and the reference it's 24 footnoted to 1748. 25 MR. GOLDIE: The petition? 2 6 MR. RUSH: 27 Q No. The fact of the organization with further 28 discovery expeditions is noted at the bottom. The 29 petition was obviously late 1747, my lord, because the 30 Privy Council confirms its opinion rejecting the Dobbs 31 petition in December of 1748, and that appears on page 32 112. Now, Dr. Farley, Professor Williams indicates at 33 page 119, if you will just turn to that, at the top of 34 the page, that it was thought that -- yes -- it was 35 thought that Ellis himself had wanted to mount an 36 expedition to the northwest coast, and if you look at 37 the top there, and I quote page 119 of Williams: 38 39 "Towards the end of 1749 it was rumoured that Ellis 40 had persuaded the Admiralty to send an expedition 41 to the northwest coast of America to search for 42 the Pacific entrance the passage, but no action 43 was taken on his plan, and fifteen years passed 44 before any naval expedition or discovery sailed 45 for the Pacific." 46 47 Now, I guess I should ask you, Dr. Farley, are you 20121 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 A 3 4 5 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 15 16 17 A 18 Q 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 27 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 A 34 MR. RUSH: 35 THE COURT 36 A 37 38 39 MR. RUSH: 40 Q 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 aware of the Ellis petition? I can't say that I can recall any detail of that unless I read the footnote. There's no mention of the scheme in the Admiralty records, but I cannot recall any specifics. All right, thank you. Dr. Farley, you're still located in your folio at map 19, I hope. Yes. I think you are? Yes. And I refer you back to that now, and just keep the Williams article available. Now, I think you noted in your evidence that in the section of the west coast between 55 and 59 degrees latitude De L'isle appended the comment, and if you'll just locate that on the De L'isle map, 55 and 59? Yes. And I'm translating, "Lands seen by the Russians in 1741 where Captain Chirikov lost his longboat, which had ten men in it." Ten men, yes. Do you see that? Yes. All right. I think a shallop (?) is a longboat, I'm not sure of the translation of some of the French terms, but that's approximately correct, I think. Now, you're of course aware of the Chirikov expedition? Yes. And are you aware of the fact that Chirikov saw what he referred to as American natives? Yes. The -- I believe they were Aleuts. Well, I want to refer you, Dr. Farley, to the next -- : Sorry, what did you say; did you say Aleuts? Yes. The native people, my lord, of the -- it would be the peninsula of Alaska, or particularly the Aleutian chain. I'm going to show you, Dr. Farley, an extract from a volume entitled "Russian Penetration to Siberia and North Pacific Russian America Ocean, Three Centuries of Russian Eastward Expansion, 1700 to 1797". And this is a documentary record and it's published in the Oregon Historical Press in 1988, and at page 139 is Captain Chirikov's report as he inscribed it or wrote it on December the 7th, 1741. Do you see that? 20122 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A Yes. 2 Q All right. And I would like to direct you to what 3 Captain Chirikov reported, and if you will turn over 4 to page 146, and after indicating on page 146 and 5 previously that he had sent two boats ashore from his 6 vessel, which was anchored offshore, he says at the 7 bottom, and I quote: 8 9 "On July 25th at 1:00 p.m. we saw two rowboats 10 coming out from the bay where our boat and lodka 11 had been sent. One was small and the other 12 somewhat larger. We hoped that these were our 13 boat and longboat returning. We went to meet 14 them, but realized that the boat was not ours 15 because its bow was very pointed and the oars were 16 not the same. The men rowed with the oars close 17 to the sides, and the boats did not come close 18 enough to our packetboat for us to make out the 19 faces of the men. We did see that there were four 20 men seated in the boat. One was at the rudder and 21 the others were rowing. One man, dressed in red, 22 stood up when they were still some distance away 23 and shouted twice 'Ahai, Ahai'. 24 They waved their hands and then immediately 25 turned and rowed back to shore. I ordered that 26 white flags be waved and that our men bow, so that 27 the others would come to our ship. Many of our 28 servitors did this, in spite of the fact that the 29 boats were being rowed quickly to shore. We could 30 not pursue them because the wind was calm and 31 their boat was very swift. The other large 32 rowboat, farther from our ship, returned, and then 33 both of them went back into the same bay from 34 which they had come. 35 We then realized that the servitors we had sent 36 were very likely in trouble since the navigator 37 Dementev had already been gone eight days and had 38 had plenty of time to return. When we sent the 39 boatswain, we did not leave our position. The 40 weather remained calm, and if they had not 41 encountered some misfortune they would have 42 already returned to us." 43 44 And he writes: 45 46 "We supposed that because the American natives did 47 not dare to come up to our packetboat that they 20123 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. MR. MR. THE MR. MR. MR. MR. THE MR. THE had been hostile toward the men we had sent to their shore, and that they had either killed them or taken them captive. We continued sailing in the vicinity until evening, however, waiting for our boats. It was not until night that we moved offshore because of the danger. All during the night we kept the light burning on the stern of the ship in hope that when they saw it they might come out to us at night." Now, you're familiar with this passage obviously, Dr. Farley? A Yes. Q And here he makes -- Captain Chirikov makes no illusion to the nationality or race of the persons that he sees, he simply describes them as American natives. Do you agree with that? A Yes. RUSH: All right. GOLDIE: That's the translation. I assume my friend has the Russian ready at hand. RUSH: I'm sure we can get it. COURT: You mean the American native? GOLDIE: Yeah, that's what — RUSH: Well, my lord, I just note it was translated by I take it one Russian, an Englishman and perhaps an American edited and translated in this edition. GOLDIE: Well, perhaps all American natives. RUSH: Perhaps. COURT: Well, this will be 12. RUSH: Thank you. Actually, 13, my lord. COURT: 13, is it? Yes, you're quite right. (EXHIBIT 1154-13 - Russian Penetration to Siberia and North Pacific Russian America Ocean, Three Centuries of Russian Eastward Expansion 1700-1797) MR. RUSH: Q Dr. Farley, while you have the passage still in front of you, I want to read you the next -- just the next paragraph of that passage: "At 11:00 a.m. we turned and held a course toward land between north and west" -- A Oh, yes. Q You see that? 20124 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Yes. Q "and by the end" — THE COURT: Sorry, I haven't found that. Where are you? MR. RUSH: I'm next reading — THE COURT: Oh, yes. MR. RUSH: Q Just the next sentence, my lord: "By the end of July 26 we reached 58 degrees 21 northern latitude." A Yeah, 58 degrees. MR. RUSH: Thank you, 58 degrees. THE COURT: Do we know what date this is? MR. RUSH: My lord, yes, it's indicated December 7th, 1741. A Excuse me -- THE COURT: They're talking about July 25th they saw the rowboats. MR. RUSH: Yes. THE COURT: And then — MR. RUSH: My lord, this is — THE COURT: And they reached 58 degrees on July 26th. MR. RUSH: My lord, it would be July the 25th of 1741, but Captain Chirikov is writing this account after the fact on December the 7th, 1741. THE COURT: Yes. Well, I hope I'm not misunderstanding this, but at the moment I have never seen it before in my life. It assumes to me what he's saying is that on July 25th he saw these persons in a boat come out towards his ship but not stop, and then he sailed on, and on the end of the next day he reached 58 degrees 21 minutes north latitude. MR. RUSH: Yes, that's correct. THE COURT: So the previous date he wouldn't be much south of 58 degrees, if at all. MR. RUSH: He was -- yes, he was south of 58 degrees, 21. THE COURT: Yes. MR. RUSH: And — THE COURT: And sailing north in one day's time he reached 58, 21. MR. RUSH: Q Well, I'm going to ask Dr. Farley that. It's, I think, understood is it not, Dr. Farley, that Chirikov sighted land and the point that he was describing here was between 55 and 56 degrees north latitude? A I can't remember the latitude exactly, but from the account that you've just put before me, it seems that 20125 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 20 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 32 Q 33 34 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 THE COURT 39 MR. RUSH: 40 THE COURT 41 MR. RUSH: 42 Q 43 44 45 46 47 the -- the winds were light, and so when we read in the penultimate paragraph on page 147 that: "We turned and held course towards the land, and by the end of July 26 we've reached 58, 21." I shouldn't have thought that would have been very far from where he observed the boats of the native -- well, the boats coming off from the shore. All right, thank you. Now, I think you've indicated, Dr. Farley, that J.N. De L'isle, the cartographer, at the time -- at this time, in 1741, was a cartographer to the Russian court? Yes. And is it not the case that his brother, J.N. De L'Isle's brother, Louis De L'isle Croyere, sailed with Chirikov in 1741? He was -- yes, he was a relative. I can't remember the details of that family lineage, but a relative sailed with Chirikov. Yes. And is it your understanding that Croyere died on the trip? Yes. I think that's correct, yes. And De L'isle himself published a memoir in 1752 dealing with the Russian expedition, in which he made specific mention of the voyage? Yes. And he also made mention of his brother's role in the voyage; isn't that so? My recollection of the detail of that is somewhat limited, but yes, I would have to agree in general. Yes, all right. Dr. Farley, I wouldn't think this would be a matter of issue. I just ask you to turn to page 141 of the Williams article or -- Of the — Of the Williams article. Yes. : What page, please? Yes, 141, my lord. : Thank you. Now, just -- I'm sorry, 142, doctor. At the bottom of 142 Williams states, and I quote: "Although Guillaume De L'isle was long since dead, other members of his family had gained considerable repute as geographers. His younger 20126 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 19 A 20 21 Q 22 23 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 29 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 A 44 ] MR. RUSH 45 46 47 brothers, Joseph Nicholas De L'isle and Louis de la Croyere, had both lived for many years in Russia. Joseph Nicholas played an important part in planning the second Bering expedition, and de la Croyere sailed with Chirikov but died on the voyage." Yes. And then it talks about J.N. De L'isle returning to France after 21 years at St. Petersburg Academy. Now, Dr. Farley, were you aware of the fact that the younger De L'isle had served in Canada with French troops? Yes. That fits with my recollection, yes. And that according to his memoir he tried to persuade the Russian expedition that the natives of the new coast that they had seen resembled the native inhabitants of Canada? I have to confess, my recollection of that part is rather dim. All right. Dr. Farley, I would like you to look at an extract taken from a document. The document is a book of old maps. Oh, yes. By Fife and Freeman. Are you familiar with that? Yes, quite familiar. 1969. And the -- the translation of the article at page 199, and I venture this translation, Dr. Farley, it says "New maps of discovery made by the Russian Explorers"? Yes, "Russian ships". "Russian ships"? Yes. All right. Now, I ask you, if you will, please, to turn to page 200, at the top of the page beginning with: "Louis De L'isle de la Croyere, who was with Tschirikow as a scientist, had served seventeen years with the French troops in Canada before going to Russia." Right. "And he easily persuaded the leaders of the expedition in the North Pacific that the natives of the new coast very much resembled the native 20127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush inhabitants of Canada, and that America had in truth been reached." GOLDIE: This was the man who was killed? RUSH: This is his brother? A Am I to answer? RUSH: Yes. GOLDIE: I thought my friend was questioning the witness about the other brother, John Nicholas. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. RUSH: Q A MR. RUSH: THE COURT J.N. De L'isle wrote a memoir about what had been left behind by his diseased brother, Louis De L'isle Croyere, and that was printed in 1752. Now, Dr. Farley, do you have -- does this account, as it's set out on page 200, accord with your understanding? Yes. It refreshes my recall, yes. As I indicated a moment ago, my recollection was rather dim of that, but yes, I see it, and I have no reason to disagree with what's written here. Thank you. Now, my lord, I would like that extract to be placed at tab 14 and marked as Exhibit 1154-14. : Yes (EXHIBIT 1154-14 - Fife and Freeman, Nouvelle carte Des Decouvertes Faites Par Des Vaisseaux Russiens) THE REGISTRAR: Do you have 14? The back starts at 15 and — the back ends at -- MR. RUSH: We have to take some steps to remedy that. Now, Dr. Farley I'm going to refer you -- THE COURT: Would it be convenient if we just call this 15 and leave 14 -- MR. RUSH: Well, we could. I'm going to get -- I can provide -- THE COURT: You think you can get a 14. MR. RUSH: Oh, yes, I think so. In fact here comes one right now. Does your lordship have a 14? THE COURT: No, I don't. THE REGISTRAR: Tab 13 is Russian Penetration. THE COURT: Yes. THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. MR. RUSH: Yes, that's correct. Tab 14, "Nouvelle Carte". MR. RUSH: Q Now, doctor, I would like to refer you in the document book back to tab 6. And I think you agreed with me this morning that this was a Buache map. You will see it's a Phillip Buache map of 1752? 2012? A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A 2 3 Q 4 5 A 6 MR. RUSH: 7 8 9 10 11 12 THE COURT 13 MR. RUSH: 14 Q 15 A 16 17 18 19 20 21 MR. RUSH: 22 THE COURT 23 MR. RUSH: 24 25 26 27 THE COURT 28 29 30 31 32 33 MR. RUSH: 34 Q 35 36 A 37 38 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 44 A 45 Q 46 47 Yes. And then there's an association with De L'isle as well. Yes. And this is sometimes referred to as the De L'Isle-Buache map? Right. Yes. Now, Dr. Farley, I would just like you to agree with me, if you can, that the front piece in Glyndwr Williams' book at 1154-10, or at tab 10, is the same map, it appears, as though Dr. Williams utilized this map as the frontispiece in his book. Can you agree with that. : The North American part? Yes? Yes. I would have to agree with that, without going carefully, just looking at it superficially and just notice that part of the title shown and the way the scales are represented and so on, I think one could say yes, it's a reduced copy of part of this Buache-De L'Isle map. And in this Buache -- : Well, it's not the same though, is it? It's not the same in all of its respects, because it -- I think his lordship's comment is that the far western side, or what would be the left-hand side of the map, is not depicted on the frontispiece. : I'm just looking at the area around the Bay of the West is in all respects the same. There's a -- oh, I suppose there is -- there's that line of hills or mountains south of the Bay of the West on tab 6 is -- I'm sorry, I think it is there, but it's very faint on the photocopy, but I suppose it's the same thing. Yes. In terms of the right-hand side of the map, Dr. Farley, it appears to be the same map, does it not? Yes. I think we're getting into the problem of the reduced reproduction there's a loss of clarity of every stage of repro. Yes? And so that's what we're seeing here. Now, I would just like to refer to the feature that's described as "Mer ou Baye de L'Ouest" and here it's described as "Sea or Bay of the West"? Yes. And it appears as though the entrance way to that is through the -- the entrance, as it says, discovered by Juan de Fuca in 1592? 20129 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A Yes. One of the entrances, and the other appears to 2 be Martin d'Aguilar. 3 Q That would be the southern entrance, would it? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And that was in 1603, at least it's attributed to 6 being in 1603? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And there appears to be, as his lordship has 9 indicated, a feature indicating a mountain range 10 around the southern portion and up the eastern side of 11 the bay? 12 A Yes. There's a depiction of broken topography. 13 Whether it's a mountain chain or not, as I've 14 testified before, it's difficult to know, but 15 certainly the cartographer has shown by symbols a 16 break in topography there. 17 Q All right, thank you. Now, just insert this back in 18 at 6. Now, Dr. Farley, I want to show you a -- 19 another map, which is a map reproduced in a volume 20 that I have made reference to. It's the Urness 21 edition of Bering Voyages? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And just now going to show this to you. Now, I'm 24 showing you a map which is found at page 46 of the 25 Bering voyages by Carol Urness, and my lord, the 26 volume extract of that volume I have already tendered, 27 and it's at tab 11. Now, Dr. Farley, if you will just 28 examine this map for a moment, can you agree with me 29 that this is a portion, apparently the northern 30 portion, of George-Louis la Rouge's map of 1744? 31 A Well, that's what the caption under the map shows. 32 There were many many different versions of the same 33 kind of map, so I can't be absolutely sure of that, 34 but certainly superficially it appears to be the same. 35 Q All right. It's labelled as being a map of the new 36 world by George-Louis la Rouge? 37 A Yes. 38 Q And you know George-Louis la Rouge as a cartographer; 39 do you not? 40 A Slightly, not in detail. He was not one of the 41 outstanding cartographers of the period. 42 Q All right. I just -- I have the volume here, Dr. 43 Farley. 44 A Yes. 45 Q Muller-Bering Voyages. And I just want to be sure 46 that there's no ambiguity in your mind, I'm showing 47 you the actual volume from the Rasmuson Library, and 20130 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 I'm directing you to page 46, and I want you to 2 confirm for me what I'm handing to you is the 3 photocopy of la Rouge's copy in the volume? 4 A It appears to be. Oh, yes, yes. 5 MR. RUSH: Thank you. Now, Dr. Farley, I have obtained one 6 copy -- 7 MR. GOLDIE: Put this under tab 11? 8 MR. RUSH: No. That can go under tab 15. That can now be 9 placed as 1154-15, my lord. 10 11 (EXHIBIT 1154-15 - Map - Georges-Louis la Rouge's 12 "Mappe monde nouvelle") 13 14 MR. GOLDIE: Was this disclosed? 15 MR. RUSH: No. It's not disclosed, it's just been published. 16 MR. RUSH: Now, Dr. Farley, what I would like you to do, if you 17 will, please, is to just compare the copy -- 18 MR. GOLDIE: Well, my lord, the document has not been disclosed, 19 he has not had an opportunity of seeing it. I think 20 my friend should ask him if he's familiar with it. 21 MR. RUSH: 22 Q Yes, certainly. If you will look at this document, 23 Dr. Farley, it's described as a facsimile of the 24 series. You're familiar with this facsimile? 25 A ACML. It's published in 1989 by the Association of 26 Canadian Map Loggers in Ottawa. 27 MR. RUSH: It goes on to indicate the sponsorship of this, and 28 this document is entitled the "Mappe monde nouvelle", 29 the Map of the New World, by la Rouge, Paris, 1744. 30 Now, I would just ask you, Dr. Farley, if you will 31 compare this facsimile to the photocopy. 32 MR. GOLDIE: I thought my friend was going to ask if he's 33 familiar with the document that's placed in front of 34 him. 35 MR. RUSH: 36 Q Do you know the map? 37 A I have seen the original, or an original from which 38 this is derived, but this is the first time I've seen 39 this one in the ACML series. 40 Q It's because it's recently published, it's evident. 41 A I assume that to be the case. I'm not familiar with 42 it in the ACML series, but I recognize this as being a 43 copy of -- one copy of an original, if you follow me. 44 Q Of the la Rouge 1744 map, right. My question to you, 45 Dr. Farley, is if you compare, please, this western 46 hemisphere -- in the northern part of the western 47 hemisphere to the la Rouge copy in the -- at page 46 20131 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 A 4 5 MR. RUSH: 6 THE COURT 7 8 A 9 MR. RUSH: 10 THE COURT 11 MR. RUSH: 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 28 29 30 A 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 Q 39 40 41 42 A 43 44 45 Q 46 47 of the Bering Voyages, can you agree with me that it represents the same map? Yes. It appears to do that, and from the caption I have no reason to question that. All right. : They put Asia and Africa on the wrong side of North America. Very observant, my lord. Now, Dr. Farley, I would like you to -- : Is that 1744? Yes. Now, I would like to draw your attention to the margin note at the bottom of this map, Dr. Farley. Yes. You will see it -- and I read a portion of this to you earlier. It indicates that it's the map "Monde Nouvelle Devier et Monsieur Le Camp Moripau George-Louis la Rouge, Paris 1744"(phonetics). And then in parenthesis "With revisions of late 1752 or later". Yes. Now, to what would that refer, if you know. Do you mean the title? Yes, the revisions, yes? Well, just what it says. I'm sorry, perhaps you -- I'm wondering if you -- 1752 is a date for which I have shown you other maps, and I was wondering if you could relate that date to the Buache or De L'isle maps of the same year? Yes. About the same time -- I'm not sure I'm really following your question. I'm asking myself -- or at least I'm saying to myself there were many many maps of this sort campaigning are portraying the Northwest America and continuing the Du Fonte -- or interpretations of the Du Fonte myth, and some of them coupled with the Bering discoveries, and this is one example. Does the notation of the kind I've directed your attention to indicate that revisions were made on this la Rouge map as a result of having examined a later map in 1752? Well, later information, I'm not sure whether it was in cartographic form or not, but it says that very clearly with revisions of late 1752 or later. But cartographically would such an indication indicate there would have been a revision from examining another map, really examining, you suggest in your 20132 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 A 3 4 5 6 MR. GOLDI 7 8 9 A 10 MR. GOLDI 11 A 12 MR. RUSH: 13 Q 14 15 16 17 18 A 19 20 Q 21 22 23 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 MR. RUSH: 34 35 THE COURT 36 MR. RUSH: 37 Q 38 39 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 MR. RUSH: 44 THE COURT 45 MR. RUSH: 46 47 THE COURT field? Yes, yes. As I say, I just take it on face value. It says with revisions of late 1752, so presumably there was something earlier. Does that answer your question, I'm not sure? £: I don't think the witness has answered my friend's question. My friend's question was does that footnote indicate that the revision was made from another map? Not necessarily. £: I don't think the witness -- Not necessarily from another map. What I was asking you was from your discipline where such a note appears like that, as a cartographer would that be a signal to you that the revisions had been made by an examination by their cartographer of another map of that date? No, no, not necessarily, no. It could be from other sources. All right, very well. If you could just look, please, to the land mass, which appears to be North America, and do you see running down the west coast there the words "Mer de L'Ouest"? Yes. And that's Sea of the West? Yes. And that's now the -- that lettering is placed off the west coast of North America? Yes. And I would ask you if you can find the 50th parallel on that la Rouge map? Yes. And, my lord, this appears on the smaller scale as well, but it's not as easy to see. : Yes. And Dr. Farley, below the 50th parallel and running from the west coast towards the east coast do you see the words Nouvelle France ou Canada? Yes. Meaning New France or Canada? Yes. All right, thank you. : Take the afternoon adjournment. Yes, my lord. I only have one version of this map, and -- : All right. What do you want to do with it? 20133 A.L. Farley (for Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush MR. RUSH: I would like it marked as perhaps 15B. We can mark the sequence 1154A, and that can be the smaller version of it and B can be this version. THE COURT: All right. That will be 15B then. MR. RUSH: Thank you. (EXHIBIT 1154-15A - Map - Bering's voyages) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 (EXHIBIT 1154-15B - Map entitled Mappe Monde Nouvelle) THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. THE COURT: All right, thank you. THE REGISTRAR: Order in court, short recess. Court stands adjourned for a (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00) I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein transcribed to the best of my skill and ability Graham D. Parker Official Reporter. United Reporting Service Ltd. 20134 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 THE COURT 4 MR. RUSH: 5 Q 6 7 8 A 9 THE COURT 10 MR. RUSH: 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 20 21 22 Q 23 A 24 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 (Proceedings resumed at 3:15 p.m.) : Mr. Rush? Thank you. Dr. Farley, if you will look at the next map that I have drawn to your attention in your map folio, map 20, which is Muller's map, do you have that there? Yes. : Map 2 0 in the — In the folio. This is Muller's map in 1754, correct? Yes. And can you agree with me that one of the purposes of Muller's map was to expose the de 1'Isle-Buache account of the Russian discoveries? To expose their account, I am not sure -- As false? That may have been one of the objectives. I think I would put it in the more positive way, I think it's an intention to represent what was known about the lands about the North Pacific. All right. And what had recently been discovered as a result of the Bering expedition. As a result of the Chirikov-Bering expedition? Yes, right. If you will go to tab 10, which is the Williams account, and turn to page 145. Are you with me on page 145? 145, yes. Now, just the full paragraph beginning, "Muller's brief comments of 1753 were followed five years later by the publication of his great work, Sammlung Russissche Geschichte, the third volume of which was translated into English and published by Thomas Jefferys in 1761." And I think you have mentioned that. "Muller's book was the most important contemporary account of the Russian discoveries, and it furnished a readable, coherent and generally accurate description of the Bering expeditions. He admitted that Bering on his first expedition had not brought back the conclusive information expected, but correctly insisted that the Dane's explorations, and those of Gwosdev in 1732, had shown 'that there is a real separation between the two parts of the world, Asia and America; that it consists only in a narrow streight'. His account of the second expedition 20135 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 described the explorations of Bering's two ships and 2 the host of minor explorers connected with the 3 project. He pointed out that the Russian explorations 4 had diminished the chances of finding a passage 5 through Hudson Bay because they seemed to show that 6 the American coast extended northwest as far as Bering 7 Strait. Muller was the more emphatic on this point 8 since he rejected the system of inland seas and 9 straits shown by de l'isle and Buache along the 10 Pacific coast of North America and mildly censured 11 their cartographic absurdities. 'It is always much 12 better to omit whatever is uncertain, and leave a void 13 space, till future discoveries shall ascertain the 14 affair in dispute." 15 Now, Dr. Farley, does that accord with your 16 understanding? 17 A Oh, yes, Muller was a first rate cartographer and he 18 did largely repudiate de Fonte and de Fuca. Not 19 entirely de Fuca but largely de Fuca as well. 20 Q I would like to refer you to the map at tab 20, and I 21 would like to here refer you to Mount St. Elias, you 22 see it's referred to there and I think you referred to 23 that feature in your testimony. What you did not 24 translate, however, is the short note below that where 25 it -- are you with me? -- where it says -- 26 A Yes. 27 Q -- "coast discovered by Captain Commander Bering in 28 1741"? 2 9 A Right. 30 Q Now, Dr. Farley, the positioning of St. Elias is 31 remarkedly close to what we now know to be its present 32 location, is it not? 33 A Yes, it's in about the right latitude and, as I 34 pointed out in earlier testimony, latitude is a 35 relatively simple matter even from the deck of a ship. 36 Q And if you will just refer a little bit below that 37 point, you will note that he, Muller, indicates the 38 point at which Capt. Chirikov sighted land and he says 39 there, and I think the translation is "coast 40 discovered by Mr. Chirikov in 1741"? 41 A By Mr.-- yes, Mr. Captain, actually, he was second in 42 command. Yes, by Mr. Captain, he was 2IC in the 43 expedition. 44 Q Now, Dr. Farley, can you agree with me from the 45 representation of the latitude line at 55 degrees that 46 it appears that the point at which Muller places Capt. 47 Chirikov's discovery of land to be at about 56 degrees 20136 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 north latitude? 2 A Yes, about that. It would take a minute or two to 3 figure it exactly but that's 56 or 57, perhaps. 4 Q All right. Now if you will just go down the line of 5 the coast there, you see the next notation that Muller 6 has, do you agree with the translation beginning 7 pretendue? 8 A Pretendue. 9 Q That this translates as "Supposed R." or river "de las 10 Reyas of Admiral de Fonte in 1640"? 11 A Yes. 12 Q According to Mr. de l'isle? 13 A Yes. 14 Q All right. And would that be a reference to J. N. de 15 l'Isle's memoir and his map of 1752? 16 A Well, de l'isle does make a representation of the Rio 17 del Reyas, but we must recall that the name, the Rio, 18 is a name that stemmed from the expedition of 19 Martin -- well, stemmed from the northward extension 20 by Aguilar of early Spanish exploration of the coast. 21 Q Apparently Muller accepts some of the supposed 22 geography of Aguilar, but he certainly doesn't accept 23 that there is any inland connection to the Hudson's 24 Bay? 25 A When you say supposed, this was real. Perhaps I 26 should clarify, Aguilar existed, he was not a 27 ficticious character, and he did sail the west coast, 28 the problem is just exactly how far did he get and 29 what was the position. 30 Q All right. And that it's thought that Aguilar's 31 discovery of the las Reyas, or River de las Reyas, 32 that that river was thought to have been discovered by 33 Aguilar; is that correct? 34 A Yes. 35 Q All right. At least to the extent of Muller's 36 acceptance of the place and the fact of the finding or 37 the outlet of de las Reyas, it would appear that 38 Muller accepts that at that point apparently somewhat 39 short of the 50th, about the 45th -- well, I would say 40 40 what, 7th degree north latitude? 41 A Something like that. I think, if I may say so, it's 42 fairly clear from the map and the delineation there 43 that there is some conjecture about it as to just 44 where it ought to be or if indeed it existed. As I 45 pointed out, Aguilar was a real person. 46 THE COURT: I don't see Aguilar on here, but saw it a moment 47 ago. I lost it. Is it on this map or another map? 20137 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A 2 3 4 5 6 7 THE COURT 8 MR. RUSH: 9 Q 10 11 12 13 14 A 15 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 Q 26 27 A 28 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 34 35 Q 36 37 38 A 39 Q 40 41 42 A 43 44 45 46 Q 47 A Excuse me, my lord, if you can see the River of the West in about latitude 45, if you extend latitude 45, the parallel, over to the American coast, and you see a River of the West flowing to the sea, and then there is a the statement "Entree decouvre par Martin d. Aguilar." : Yes, I see it. Way down there. Dr. Farley, I would like to refer you to the notation actually between the one you have just directed his lordship to and the indication of the River de las Reyas, and that is where it says "entree decouvre par Juan de Fuca"? Yes, "entree decou", it's an abbreviation for "decouvre, en 1592." And that's the entrance discovered by Juan de Fuca in 1592? Again, a very sensitive suggestion of it, but yes. Dr. Farley, he has dropped the use of the word pretendue, do you see that? Yes, he has dropped that word but judging from what's on the rest of the map, it would seem that an element of that is left open and would indicate that there is a good deal of uncertainty about just what was there. He doesn't even show it as an embayment as this point, does he? The trends of the coast on either side is towards inland. Would you agree with me that Muller accepts, as a matter of fact, the existence of the Juan de Fuca Strait? I don't think I could go that far. I would say that there is at least a tentative suggestion of that. But I wouldn't say that it's a definite acceptance. All right. He has got that, the placement of the opening to Juan de Fuca, at about 47 or 48 degrees north latitude? Yes, 47, 48, yes. If you will look to the River de l'ouest, or River of the West, which you have drawn our attention to, that seems to flow into Lake Winipigue on its eastern side? The question is whether it is flowing into it or flowing from it, but, yes, Lake Winipigue, I am not sure that I can read that, the name on that lake clearly enough to be absolute about it. It's Lake Winipigue, isn't it? W-I-N-I-P-I-G-U-E, yes. 2013? A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 Q And that would be Lake Winnipeg? 2 A Yes, presumably. Well, I don't know of any other 3 sizeable lake in that relative location that might 4 have had that name. That doesn't mean to say that 5 there wasn't one, simply I don't know of any. 6 Q But the most likely conclusion is that it's Lake 7 Winnipeg? 8 A I would think so, yes. 9 Q And it shows that the River of the West is flowing 10 from Lake Winnipeg? 11 A Yes, either from or to, yes. 12 Q And do you see the dotted lines that or the dots that 13 continue on from the darkened line? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Would you agree that it appears that Muller believes 16 this river connects to the west coast? 17 A Yes, again, it's a very tentative sort of conjectural 18 thing. That is the way I would interpret those dotted 19 lines. The cartographer was by no means sure of the 20 information that he was attempting to portray. 21 Q The dotted line suggests some conjecture about whether 22 the river flows to the west coast? 23 A Yes. 24 MR. GOLDIE: Or from. 2 5 MR. RUSH: 26 Q Now, Dr. Farley, from your observation of this map, 27 would you agree with me that the general outline of 28 the coast, as Muller depicts it, is remarkably 29 accurate for the period? 30 A Yes, it was in these terms -- we have to refine that, 31 much of it, as you can see, is, you might say, 32 inspired conjecture. But the points that are shown 33 where the tracks of the Russian vessels had approached 34 the coast, those points were moderately well- 35 established in latitude, if not in longitude, and for 36 much of what we recognize today as the Peninsula of 37 Alaska and the Aleutian Islands, it has to be inspired 38 conjecture, because there were no sightings. 39 Q I appreciate that. But you will agree with me that 40 the way Muller has depicted it in terms of their 41 general understanding of the coastline, that it's 42 remarkably similar to its present line? 43 A Well, if I may, I put it this way, it represents a 44 major step forward in the mapping of the northwest 45 coast of America. 46 Q And it shows a continuous coastline from Aguilar to 47 the Chirikov point at 56 -- 20139 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 A 2 Q 3 4 5 A 6 7 8 9 Q 10 11 A 12 13 THE COURT 14 15 A 16 17 18 THE COURT 19 A 20 THE COURT 21 A 22 23 THE COURT 24 MR. RUSH: 25 Q 26 27 A 28 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 46 47 A I am sorry, I missed that. It shows a continuous coastline from the point of Aguilar's discoveries in 1603 or where the River of the West meets the Westcoast, to Chirikov's sightings? Well, again, it's clearly conjectural because the line is dotted and, again, where de Fuca's entrance is shown, there is obviously some or was uncertainty on Muller's part. There is nothing dotted about the entrance there, is there? Sorry, my lord, I am referring to this part of the coast. : That's what I am wondering about, I wanted the witness to show me what he said was dotted. This portion, my lord, and this portion in here and uncertainty, because there is no closure there. So he wouldn't have left it open. : But you pointed to there and there? There and there. : That is dotted, is it? Excuse me, yes, in my recollection of the original maps it is, yes. : All right. There is nothing dotted about the entranceway to Juan de Fuca? No, but there is uncertainty as expressed by the lack of closure. Have you heard of J. G. Castille, Dr. Farley? Yes, And who was Castille? Trying to think. I will have to ask you to -- Was he a Jesuit who was interested in cartography and did some rather -- lay cartography? French, yes, French cartographer. Do you know if he -- are you aware of any of the maps that he published? Well, I can't -- Do any come to mind? None comes to mind immediately. That's not to say that I couldn't recall. Sorry? I can't think of a particular map that -- Do I take it from your lack of recollection about Castille that he is not one of the more notable cartographers of the period? In terms of the representation of northwest America, 20140 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 North America generally, but particularly northwest 2 America, no, he is not one of the major cartographers. 3 Q Would you look, please, now to folio 14, map -- 4 Bellin's map of 1755. I have referred this to you 5 previously, maybe I can just assist you. 6 A May I put this down? 7 Q Yes. 8 A Thank you. 9 A Yes. 10 Q All right. Now, Dr. Farley, this is Ballin, 1555? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And you will note that Ballin marks the Russian 13 discovery in the upper left hand corner, and I think 14 you made reference to this? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And you agree with me that the translation of this 17 indicates "Lands Discovered by the Russians in 1741 18 without having landed there"? 19 A Yes, "without going ashore", yes. 20 Q And does it -- do you agree with me that the place of 21 the landing, or at least the discovery, indicates that 22 it occurred at about 55 or 56 degrees north latitude? 23 A It's shown extending actually where the lettering is 24 shown, it would be about, yes, 5630 to 5730 or 25 thereabout. 26 Q Now, you will see to the right of that, in French, you 27 will see the inscription? 28 A Yes. 29 Q Do you agree with me that it translates, "and one does 30 not know if these are islands or the continent"? 31 A Yes, the small label just off in the ocean, yes. "No 32 one knows if this is islands or continent." 33 Q And would another term for -- could you translate that 34 "as islands or mainland"? 35 A Yes. 36 Q Now, you noted I think in your evidence, that Ballin 37 placed a Mer de l'ouest, or Western Sea on his map and 38 you have indicated, you see the indication? 39 A Yes, very tentative. 40 Q He doesn't give any boundaries? 41 A No. Well, there is a partial boundary but it's again 42 very tentative. 43 Q And what do you see as the boundary there? 44 A Well, to the south where it says -- I am not sure I 45 can read it on that copy. 46 Q Entrance of Juan de Fuca? 47 A Something about Aguilar and then the date and north of 20141 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 that is the entrance of Juan de Fuca. 2 Q All right. I am going to read you, direct your 3 attention again to Prof. Williams, I just ask you to 4 keep the map out, doctor. I am going to direct your 5 attention now to -- back to Prof. Williams at page 6 151, he is discussing Ballin in this and his map. And 7 at 151 beginning the first full paragraph he says: 8 9 "Ballin was particularly well placed to judge 10 the reliability of the new maps, because his 11 position as Ingenieur de la Marine et du Depot 12 des Cartes, Plans et Journaux, gave him access 13 to the reports and maps of La Verendrye and 14 other French explorers in North America. As 15 befitted his official status, he showed little 16 patience with cartographers who produced maps 17 to fit theories, and he preferred to leave a 18 region blank rather than fill it with doubtful 19 detail. He was sceptical of Buache's 20 insistence that the 'Mer de l'Ouest' was a 21 great inland sea, and placed little trust in 22 the Fonte letter, which he thought was perhaps 23 an account concocted in England to stimulate 24 interest in the Northwest Passage." 25 26 I am going to be returning to that passage, Dr. 27 Farley, but in terms of Williams's assessments of 28 Ballin, can you agree with that from your own 29 research? 30 A Yes, certainly it's his position as the head of the 31 cartographic section of the Ministry of Marine and 32 Maps, he would have had access to French information. 33 As to whether his showing little patience with 34 cartographers producing maps to fit theories, I think 35 that's a matter of interpretation. Certainly the 36 evidence is persuasive that he, from the very 37 notations on this map, that he had little faith in the 38 de Fonte figures and he was critical of de l'isle and 39 Buache. 40 Q Let's me read on in his passage: 41 42 "Just as nationalistic British geographers 43 decried attempts to find a waterway to the 44 Pacific other than through Hudson Bay, so 45 Ballin rejected their theories and favoured, as 46 he had in 1754, La Verendrye's proposed route 47 to the ocean along a string of lakes and rivers 20142 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 west of Lake Superior." 2 3 Does that accord with your own research? 4 A Yes, Ballin did represent the La Verendrye 5 information. He was the first, in my recollection, 6 the first to portray that in his map. But, excuse me, 7 I should add to that, the first as a commercial 8 product, published map. 9 Q All right. And it's -- do you agree as well as Prof. 10 Williams that Ballin believed that the Pacific Ocean 11 lay on the other side of the North American continent 12 and the route to it was overland? 13 A Well, I think -- just restate the question, if you 14 will. 15 Q Do you agree, as suggested here by Prof. Williams, 16 that there -- that Ballin, in his map, considered that 17 there was a Pacific Ocean on the other side of the 18 North American continent? 19 MR. GOLDIE: Where does he say that, please? 20 MR. RUSH: It just says, "Just as nationalistic British 21 geographers decried attempts to find a waterway to the 22 Pacific other than through Hudson Bay, so Bellin in 23 turn rejected their theories and favoured, as he had 24 in 1744, La Verendrye's proposed route to the ocean." 25 MR. GOLDIE: Well, what ocean? 26 MR. RUSH: Well — 27 THE COURT: The Pacific? 2 8 MR. RUSH: 29 Q Well, what do you think it is, Dr. Farley? 30 A Well, I would, in the context of -- 31 MR. GOLDIE: Well, my lord, I don't think the witness should be 32 asked to speculate what was in Prof. Williams's mind 33 and Prof. Williams was speculating on what Ballin 34 thought. 35 MR. RUSH: I am not asking the witness to speculate, I am here 36 simply asking the witness if, as a cartographer, from 37 his research, that he can agree with Prof. Williams's 3 8 view. 39 THE COURT: I certainly think the witness can say whether he 40 agrees or disagrees with that passage, or such other 41 middle ground as may be thought more accurate. 42 A Well, I would say -- I don't dispute what Williams has 43 written in general, but as to -- there are two 44 questions here: One, what was the ocean in the minds 45 of the cartographers at the time? It might have been 46 the northern ocean, it might have been based on Indian 47 reports anyway, Hudson's Bay, or it might have been 20143 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. RUSH: Q A A Q A A THE COURT MR. RUSH: THE COURT the Pacific Ocean. So, that's one aspect. And the other is, if you are asking me did Ballin have the impression of a continent, well he must have done, and he must have known that it had a western margin somewhere but he didn't know where it was, other than from the discoveries of the Rusians in the north, and what he thought were the discoveries of the Spanish in the south. Well, he certainly put it -- he gave it co-ordinates on his map in Exhibit 14, didn't he, or map 14? Not a complete representation of the west coast, and as he says, very clearly, no one knows if these parts are land or water. There is no doubt, is there, from looking at that map, Dr. Farley, that there is a suggestion of the west coast by the way he represents it in that map? There is a suggestion there, certainly, yes. And just in terms of the ocean, when you said that there could be or that Ballin may have been referring to, did you say the north ocean? Yes, up to the arctic or, more particularly, to Hudson's Bay, because you recall in the literature, and I can't remember the detail but essentially something to do with salt water and the Indian reports indicated salt water in what turned to out to be Hudson's Bay. But La Verendrye did not know that at that time but if they did they made a different interpretation. Just reading from the last clause there, Dr. Farley, when he refers to La Verendrye's proposed route to the ocean along a string of lakes and rivers west of Lake Superior, they are not talking about the north ocean, are they, west of Lake Superior? As I pointed out, it's conceivable that that could be an interpretation. I don't dispute the statement that Williams has made, and it would seem, if one had to take it on balance, it would seem that he is referring to the western ocean, but that's not necessarily the case. Yes. All right. Dr. Farley, I want to show you -- : Is it important that I know what these notations are on Ballin's map, along the west coast? I have got the two at the north. How far along are you, my lord? : Just to the west of La mer de l'ouest, it looks like islands or passages and I can't read them. The 20144 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 MR. RUSH: 3 THE COURT 4 MR. RUSH: 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 10 A 11 THE COURT 12 A 13 MR. RUSH: 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 THE COURT 26 MR. RUSH: 27 THE COURT 28 MR. RUSH: 29 A 30 31 32 MR. RUSH: 33 34 35 A 36 Q 37 THE COURT 38 A 39 MR. RUSH: 40 THE COURT 41 42 A 43 MR. RUSH: 44 Q 45 46 47 southern end of the gap in the coastline. Well, my lord -- : What do they say? Are you with me, Dr. Farley, latitude 48, just between 47, and 48, his lordship is asking about? Yes. He is asking about the French there, it says entrance of Juan de Fuca, does it not? Yes. : Is that what that says? Yes. You're with me there? Yes. All right. And then below that, and it's below in and to the right of that, can you see one or we do not know this part? These parts? These parts. And then below that, entrance of Martin Aguilar? Yes. In 1603? Yes. : I am sorry, entrance? Of Martin d'Aguilar. : M-A-R-T-I-N? Yes, and d-'-A-G-U-L-A-R? I think, if I may, it's capital A-G-U-I-L-A-R. I can't discern the detail even with the hand glass, but I think there is an I in there. There may well be. I have here, Dr. Farley, what is a facimile of the copy that's here at map 14, and if you look at Aguilar, you just have a -- Yes, A-G-U-I-L-A-R. Thank you. : A-G-U-I-L-A-R? Yes, my lord. Thank you. : Thank you. And then behind Cape Blanc, what is that, what do those words say? Cape Blanc or it would be San Sebastion. Now, Dr. Farley, I am going to show you a map -- this is, my lord, during Mr. Morrison's testimony, a map was exhibited as Exhibit 1027-29, and he was asked to produce a better copy, and this is a better copy of 20145 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 27 28 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 34 35 36 THE COURT 37 MR. RUSH: 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 43 A 44 Q 45 46 47 that. It's a facsimile reproduction of the same map which is map, excuse me, map 14 in Dr. Farley's folio. And this map has been coloured, there are three colours, red, yellow and blue, and there is a notation by E. Dahl, who is the archivist at the National Archives of Canada, about the placement of the three colours on the original. And, Dr. Farley, I would like to show you this map and can you agree with me that this facsimile is the same as the copy that's shown at ten, your map folio number ten or 14? Yes, it's the same map. All right. Now, I would like you, if you will, to look at this map, and I am going to ask you to refer to the cartouche in the upper left hand corner, and you see there remarks, and the statement which appears there, under remarks, can it be translated, and I will ask if you can agree with this translation as "The French possessions are coloured blue"? Yes. 'those of the English yellow"? 'those of the Spanish red"' And Yes. And Yes. Now, I am -- I would just ask you if you would look to the blue line, Dr. Farley, and you agree that it runs along the river south and west of Lake Winnipeg marked at Assiniboiles River? Yes, yes. Here we are. Here. River de Assiniboiles. Yes. And I think you agreed with me that below where the words Assiniboiles River is positioned on the map, it says in French, "which one can believe flows to the western sea"? : Is possible, you mean. Yes. Do you see that, Doctor? "Perhaps one believes flows to the sea of the west." Thank you. And, Dr. Farley, do you agree that it appears as though the red line stops at the point marked on this map as entrance of Juan de Fuca? Yes. All right. Thank you. My lord, I have one copy of this and I propose that it either be marked -- well, it can be marked separately or it can be marked as part of perhaps A or 20146 A. L. Farley (For Province) Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 1 B of Exhibit 10 — 2 THE COURT: I would prefer to — 3 MR. RUSH: 1027-29. 4 THE COURT: I would prefer to mark it as A of 29, and then I can 5 look at one -- I suppose other -- 6 MR. GOLDIE: My friend is proposing to mark it as part of Mr. 7 Morrison's -- that's what my friend was proposing. I 8 think since it's been identified by the witness it 9 should be marked as part of the cross-examination 10 here. 11 THE COURT: So it will be 1029-B. 12 MR. RUSH: Well, my lord, I think your proposal is at odds to 13 what has been suggested by Mr. Goldie. If it's marked 14 1027-29 it would be marked in Mr. Morrison's sequence. 15 If it's marked in the sequence for Dr. Farley, it 16 would be 1149, that would be the sequence of his 17 folio. 18 THE COURT: 14A then. 19 THE REGISTRAR: The Province put in one of these, 14X. 20 MR. GOLDIE: 1149-14X is the Province's facsimile of this map. 21 But the distinction that is being made is that this 22 has some coloured lines on it and so far as I am 23 aware, they are certified by Mr. Dahl at the archives, 24 but I haven't been able to compare it with what is at 25 Mr. Morrison's Exhibit 1027-29. And if my friend 26 wishes to mark it as part of that, I would like to be 27 given the opportunity of comparing the two. 28 MR. RUSH: Well, I think it -- a reference should be made to the 29 exhibit as it was tendered by Mr. Morrison. 30 THE COURT: I think the safest thing to do is mark it as 1027-27 31 A. 32 MR. GOLDIE: I would like the opportunity of looking at what Mr. 33 Morrison spoke to when he gave his evidence. 34 THE COURT: Well, you are welcome to do that and if there is any 35 problem, you can speak to it again. 36 Is it convenient to adjourn? 37 MR. RUSH: All right. Thank you. 38 39 (EXHIBIT 1027-29A: MAP ENTITLED CARTE DE L'AMERIQUE 40 SEPTENTRIANDE) 41 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 42 a true and accurate transcript of the 43 proceedings herein. 44 45 46 Wilf Roy 47 Official Reporter
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[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-10-02] British Columbia. Supreme Court Oct 2, 1989
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Title | [Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-10-02] |
Creator |
British Columbia. Supreme Court |
Publisher | Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd. |
Date Created | 1989-10-02 |
Description | In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, between: Delgamuukw, also known as Albert Tait, suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all the members of the House of Delgamuukw, and others, plaintiffs, and Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of British Columbia and the Attorney General of Canada, defendants: proceedings at trial. |
Extent | pages 20069-20146 : digital, DOC file |
Subject |
Trial transcripts--British Columbia. |
Person Or Corporation | Uukw, Delgam, 1937- |
Genre |
Trial proceedings |
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Text |
File Format | application/pdf |
Language | English |
Notes | First page numbered the same as last page of previous document, although the pages are different. |
Identifier | KEB529.5.L3 B757 SCBC_272 |
Collection |
Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts |
Source | Original Format: University of British Columbia. Library. Law Library. |
Date Available | 2013 |
Provider | Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library |
Rights | Images provided for research and reference use only. For permission to publish, copy, or otherwise distribute these images, please contact the Courts of British Columbia: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/ |
DOI | 10.14288/1.0018422 |
Aggregated Source Repository | CONTENTdm |
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