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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-07-13] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jul 13, 1989

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 18654  Proceedings  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 July 13th, 1989  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  7 13th day of July, 1989.  In the matter of Delgamuukw  8 versus Her Majesty the Queen, at bar, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  Before you start, gentlemen, I thought that I should  10 show to counsel the pictures that I was thinking of  11 yesterday about these what may be grave houses so  12 counsel at least know what thoughts the evidence have  13 presented themselves to me.  Now, it's too bad I  14 didn't have these when Mr. Steciw was in the box, and  15 I'm not sure that I could conclude that he was  16 describing those structures which were taken at  17 Slamgeesh, but I think counsel should at least know  18 what thoughts have gone through my mind about what he  19 might have been talking about.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, your lordship said these were taken at  21 Slamgeesh.  22 THE COURT:  Well, I may be wrong.  I don't have my notes here,  23 but I can check against that.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  If you could forgive me, your lordship —  25 THE COURT:  Where do you think it is?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  -- Amending your lordship's comment, since I  27 happened to be there and I have pictures exactly like  28 this of Ms. Russell.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I think that this picture showing Ms.  31 Russell looking at a cabin --  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  — Is at Kuldo, the old Village of Kuldo.  34 THE COURT:  That's possible.  Yes, that is possible.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I have a picture similar to that, my lord.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  37 MR. RUSH:  Maybe Mr. Mackenzie could assist us with regard to  38 the other one as well.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  And this one with Mr. Blackwater —  40 THE COURT:  Who was on the same trip, of course.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I think this may be Kuldo, but it's  42 possible it looks more like the Slamgeesh area than  43 the Kuldo area.  I have to check my notes.  It doesn't  44 look like the houses that were identified as grave  45 houses when we were there, but it's --  46 THE COURT:  All right.  Secondly, I wonder if it's convenient to  47 ask counsel whether they're aware of any reason why we 18655  Proceedings  1 shouldn't schedule ourselves into the fall with a  2 three and one rotation starting September 5th.  There  3 are plans I have to make, and there are five judge  4 courts I have to establish, and I'd like to know right  5 away if counsel can tell me whether there are any  6 reasons why we -- I'm sorry, is September 5th not the  7 day we start?  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, it is, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  Why we shouldn't assume a three and one rotation  10 from that date?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  That's satisfactory to my client, my lord.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  Satisfactory.  13 MR. RUSH:  For me as well.  14 THE COURT:  These things can be changed if reasons are shown,  15 but I think that I have to try and proceed on that  16 basis.  And I have to also say, however, that the  17 three in one rotation would be the weeks of September  18 5th, 12th -- I'm sorry, September 5th, 11th, 18th,  19 we'd be off the week of the 25th, and we start again  20 on the 2nd, but I have to say to counsel that it may  21 be that on the week of the 9th, which is Thanksgiving  22 Day, that I may have to sit in the five judge court  23 starting for the 10th and 11th on October, which would  24 be a three day long weekend, or five day long weekend  25 for counsel.  But that isn't final yet, but I want to  26 give notice that it may be possible I wouldn't be able  27 to sit for those two days, the 10th and 11th of  28 October.  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Mackenzie.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I handed your lordship's photographs to  30 Ms. Russell, whom I didn't see sitting there.  It's  31 presumptuous of me to say that's her.  32 MS. RUSSELL:  I concur with Mr. Mackenzie's comments.  33 THE COURT:  Kuldo and not Slamgeesh?  34 MS. RUSSELL:  Yes.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, the next witness is Mrs. Barbara Peden,  37 P-E-D-E-N.  38 Mrs. Peden, would you come up and take the witness  39 box, please.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  Will you stand in the witness box, please.  41 Stand in the witness box, please, dear.  Take the  42 Bible in your right hand.  43  44 BARBARA LUCILLE PEDEN, a witness  45 called on behalf of the Province,  46 having first been duly sworn,  47 testified as follows: 18656  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your full name, please.  A   Barbara Lucille Peden.  THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  Please be seated.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Mrs. Peden, I understand that you were born in  Lloydminster, Alberta?  A   Yes, I was .  Q   And you and your family subsequently moved to British  Columbia?  A   Yes.  Q   That was about what time?  A   1936.  Q   And you settled in the Francois Lake area of British  Columbia?  A   That's right.  Q   And you have lived in that area ever since; is that  correct?  A   Yes.  Q   Where did you settle at first when you came to the  Francois Lake area?  A   On the south shore of the west end of Francois Lake.  Q   Now, we've placed a map beside you.  It's a map 13 in  our alienation series.  It's Exhibit 55-C in this  trial.  I'm going to give you a marker, a green  marker.  Could you show his lordship the location of  your family's first home in Francois Lake area, and  just tell his lordship where it is?  Yes.  Sorry.  I know where you are.  Our first home was here on the west end of Francois  Lake, on the south side, which was called Nadina.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Mrs. Peden, would you put a number one there, please.  And you're marking with a green marker?  A   Do I put a circle around it?  Q   Yes.  And how long did you live there, Mrs. Peden?  A  We lived there approximately two years.  Q   And then where did you -- did you move from there  after that?  A   Yes.  We moved to the Nadina River across the end of  the lake on the -- would be the northwest corner up on  the Nadina River.  We moved there two years after we  moved to the -- from Nadina.  Q   Now, could you mark that on map Exhibit 56-C and put a  number two with a circle.  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  MR 18657  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. RUSH:  Isn't that 55?  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  55-C  Yes, that's correct.  4 A   It's approximately right here.  And I'll put number  5 two.  6 Q   And can you tell his lordship where that is in  7 relation to say the town of Noralee?  8 A   It's about four miles east, or excuse me, four miles  9 west of Noralee.  10 THE COURT:  Noralee?  11 A   Yes.  It was -- that was the old name of the post  12 office at that time.  13 THE COURT:  One word or two words?  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  One word, my lord.  15 Q   Perhaps you could also note Noralee with a number  16 three.  Have you done that?  If you've done that, Mrs.  17 Peden --  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   -- Would you come back to the witness box, please.  2 0 Now, what did your father do as far as employment  21 was concerned in those early years after you came to  22 Francois Lake?  23 A   He managed a ranch for a fellow that owned quite a few  24 head of cattle.  And he ran that for quite a few  25 years.  26 Q   And did he eventually take over the ranch or buy  27 property of his own?  28 A   Yes, he did.  2 9 Q   And about when was that?  30 A   I would say early '40s.  31 Q   Okay.  I'd like to ask you some questions about --  32 about life in those days at Francois Lake, about the  33 lifestyle and while you were growing up.  How many  34 children were in your family?  35 A   Four.  3 6 Q   And how many --  37 A   Two brothers -- I had two brothers and one sister.  38 Q   And what did you do as children for recreation during  39 those days in the '30s?  40 A   Oh, we did -- in the wintertime we did a lot of skiing  41 and recreation like that.  Tobogganing.  And  42 summertime we went on picnics and did fishing and  43 hiking, and we rode horseback a lot.  44 Q   And you said you were fishing.  Where were you  45 fishing?  46 A  We fished in the Francois Lake and the Nadina River.  47 Q   And what sort of fish did you catch? 1865?  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A They were catching rainbow trout and char.  2 Q Did you do any hunting?  Did you or your family do any  3 hunting?  4 A Yes, my dad, he did.  At that time, the early days, he  5 would be doing the hunting and my older brothers --  6 brother would do the hunting.  7 Q And where would they be hunting?  8 A Right around our ranch or in the Nadina River Valley.  9 In the areas around that area.  10 Q And what game were they hunting?  11 A They were hunting mostly moose, deer, bear.  12 Q And what did they do with the game meat?  13 A We lived on it.  We ate it.  Also we canned it.  At  14 that time we didn't have any electricity so we had to  15 can it to keep it.  16 Q And what other food were you eating during those  17 years?  18 A Well, fish, and then we had the wild berries and made  19 our own jam and jellies, and fruit.  20 Q What type of berries were you using or picking?  21 A Huckleberries and cranberries and raspberries,  22 blueberries.  23 Q And where would you find those berries?  24 A In the surrounding country.  25 Q Around Francois Lake?  26 A Yes.  27 Q Did you have a garden?  2 8 A Yes, we did.  2 9 Q And did you have any animals on your ranch?  30 A Yes.  31 Q What sort of animals?  32 A Cows and horses and sheep and pigs and chickens.  33 Q Okay.  And there were other white people in the area,  34 were there?  35 A Yes, but we didn't really have any real close  36 neighbours.  37 Q Did you have occasion to get together with the  38 neighbours at any time during the year?  39 A Yes.  4 0 Q And when would that be?  41 A Usually on like 1st of Julys and whenever we have  42 school picnics and get togethers like that.  43 Q And where would you go for your 1st of July  44 celebrations?  45 A Usually went to Wistaria.  46 Q Could you show the judge where Wistaria is on that  47 map? 18659  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Is Wistaria spelled with a Y or a —  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  W-I-S-T-A-R-I-A.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, the map that I'm still waiting to hear  4 from my friends on shows all these.  5 A  Wistaria --  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just a second, please, Mrs. Peden.  Just hang on  7 for a minute, please.  8 Q   Now, you're just showing his lordship where Wistaria  9 is?  10 A   That's right.  11 Q   Have you marked a number four at that?  12 A   I will.  13 Q   Could you tell his lordship where it is, please?  14 A   It's southeast of Nadina River.  About 20 miles from  15 where I live.  16 Q   Does your lordship have that?  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, Mrs. Peden.  19 Q   And did you have telephone communications in those  20 days in the '30s?  21 A  We did at Nadina.  That was the first telephone that  22 was in there, and that was the only one we had in  23 there for several years.  24 Q   What was at Nadina in those days, the '30s?  25 A  What was at Nadina?  26 Q   Yes.  27 A   There was kind of a small settlement.  They had a post  28 office, Nadina Post Office.  That's where the  29 telephone was.  And it was like a country store.  And  30 we had a schoolhouse there, and there were several  31 families there living in different houses at that  32 time.  And the store -- or store was sort of like --  33 kind of like a roadhouse in a sense.  It had rooms for  34 travellers that had to stay overnight, and that kind  35 of thing.  36 Q   How did you get staples such as sugar and flour?  37 A  Well, when we were on that side of the lake it was  38 brought up Francois Lake by boat.  39 Q   That was when you were on the southwest side of the  40 lake?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   What staples were brought up?  43 A   Like everything like your flour, sugar, tea, coffee.  44 All that kind of thing.  Beans and rice, and you name  45 it.  4 6 Q   Where did they come from?  47 A   They came from Burns Lake. 18660  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And who brought those up by boat?  2 A  A fellow by the name of Frank Gale.  3 Q   And who was he?  4 A   He was the fellow who ran the store at that time, and  5 owned that place.  6 Q   And how did you -- you talked about canning moose and  7 game meat.  Was there any other way you had to  8 preserve meat or keep it from spoiling?  9 A   If we got our moose or deer, or whatever, late enough  10 in the fall then we just hang it and let it freeze.  11 Q   Then what would you do with that?  12 A  We keep it.  We used it as frozen.  When it was  13 starting to get warmer weather it started to thaw out  14 then we'd have to can it to keep it.  15 Q   Did you have any electricity in that area in those  16 days?  17 A   No, we did not.  18 Q   When did electricity first come in?  19 A   In the seventies.  20 Q   When did your telephone first come in other than at  21 Nadina?  22 A   I would say in the mid '40s, or somewhere in there.  23 Q   What was the road -- what were the road conditions to  24 get to your place?  25 A   The one on Nadina River side or --  2 6 Q   When you moved to the north.  27 A   North we just had a gravel road.  It was mainly from  28 the Wistaria side.  And the other side we didn't have  29 much.  It was more bush road and it was -- some  30 parts -- some times of the year you couldn't travel it  31 with a car.  32 Q   You say "the other side".  What do you mean?  33 A  Well, like east of us the road wasn't connected  34 between the old Noralee.  Where Noralee is it was  35 about four miles there we didn't have a road except  36 through the bush, and it wasn't always passable, and  37 usually we used pack horses or saddle horses to go on  38 the pack trail.  39 Q   What did you do as far as education is concerned?  I'm  40 talking about book learning.  41 A  When we first moved to Nadina three of us took  42 correspondence for two years, and then when we moved  43 to the other side, like Nadina River, my sister and I  44 rode horseback to the Noralee school, which was four  45 and a half miles.  46 Q   And what sort of a school was that?  47 A  Well, it had all grades from one to eight. 18661  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q And how many students did you have?  2 A Oh, approximately 15.  3 Q And did you complete your education there?  4 A Not all of it, no.  5 Q I see.  And were these other children all white  6 people, white children?  7 A Not all of them.  Most of them.  8 Q Some of them were some other ethnic background?  9 A Some of them were part native.  10 Q And were there any native people living in your area  11 at the west end of Francois Lake in the 1930s?  12 A Yes, there was.  13 Q And who were those people?  14 A There were the Matthew Sams.  15 Q And where did the Matthew Sams live?  16 A They lived on the north shore of the west end of  17 Francois Lake.  18 Q And can you be any -- can you tell his lordship a name  19 for the place where they might have lived -- where  20 they lived; was it a reserve or something like that?  21 A Yes, it was on the reserve.  22 Q And what's the name of that reserve?  2 3 A I don't remember.  24 Q Okay.  Was that reserve near your home?  25 A Yes, it is.  26 Q And where is it in relation to Nadina -- to Francois  27 Lake?  28 A It's right on the shore.  Francois Lake on the north  29 shore on the west end -- at the west end.  30 Q You said -- were there other native people living in  31 that area?  32 A Yes, there was.  33 Q Who were they?  34 A There were the Seymours and the Hollands.  35 MR. RUSH:  The who, Seymours and who?  36 A Hollands.  37 THE COURT:  P-U-L-L-I-N-S?  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  H-O-L-L-A-N-D-S, my lord.  3 9    THE COURT:  Oh.  All right.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q And where did the Hollands live?  42 A They lived up the Nadina River Valley about, oh,  43 approximately four miles west of our place.  44 Q Did you visit their -- the place where they lived?  45 A Yes, I did.  46 Q And what occasions would you do that?  47 A Well, when we were looking for our cattle we would 18662  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 ride up there quite often, and sometimes just for  2 riding around we would stop there.  3 Q   And how many -- can you describe the sort of homes  4 they were living in, the Hollands?  5 A  Well, the Hollands had a huge house.  I don't know how  6 many rooms, but there were a lot of rooms in it.  Well  7 built house.  And they had other several outside  8 buildings, but other than that they seemed like -- I  9 can remember it's just the one big house.  10 Q   Where did the Seymours live?  11 A   They lived down the river, like which would be east,  12 closer to our place by about two miles.  Approximately  13 two miles between the Hollands and the Seymours on the  14 same side of the river, which would be the north side  15 of the Nadina River.  16 Q   Did you have occasion to visit the place where they  17 lived?  18 A   Yes.  Yes, I did.  19 Q   And what did their homes look like?  20 A   It was similar to the Hollands.  They had a big, big  21 house too.  22 Q   And why would you be going to see the Seymours?  23 A  When we were looking for the cattle and joy riding,  24 and that type of thing.  25 Q   Yes.  What were your cattle doing up there?  26 A   Eating grass, I hope.  27 Q   I'm glad to hear that.  So your cattle tended to roam  28 around?  29 A   Yes, they ranged all through that country.  30 Q   Now, could you show his lordship, and mark on the map  31 Exhibit 55-C, first where the Matthew Sams lived.  And  32 that would be number five.  33 A   Yeah.  That would be right here.  34 Q   Can you describe that in relation to Noralee?  35 A   Yes.  It would be about three miles from west of  36 Noralee.  37 Q   Very good.  And then going west can you show his  38 lordship where the Seymours lived.  That would be  39 number six.  40 A   I will put -- this is where the Seymours live is right  41 here on this little reserve, and it's number six.  42 Q   You say there's a reserve marked on the map?  43 A   That's right.  44 Q   Was that a reserve when you knew them?  4 5 A   Yes, it was.  46 Q   And then moving -- how far was that from Noralee?  47 A  Approximately eight miles.  I'm guessing on that.  Not 18663  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  too sure how many miles it would be.  Q   Yes.  Continuing west to the Hollands can you show his  lordship, please, and mark on number seven.  A  And that's on the reserve also, and it's right there.  I'11 put seven.  Q   And where is that?  A   That's west of the Seymours.  I think they were about  a couple of miles apart between the two reserves,  which is right there was Hollands and that was the  Seymours there.  The Hollands and the Seymours were both on the north  side of the Nadina River?  Right.  And Matthew Sam on the south side?  No.  Matthew Sam was on the north side of Francois  Lake.  On the north side of Francois Lake?  Right here.  Yes.  All right.  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Is there a reserve there?  A   Yes, there is.  Q   You've marked number five there?  A   Number five is Matthew Sam, six is the Seymours and  seven is the Hollands.  Q   Okay.  That's fine.  Thank you.  Did -- how long did  the Matthew Sams continue to live on the reserve near  your home?  A   Oh, as long as I know them up until -- let's see.  When did they die?  Up until six years or seven years  ago.  I just can't quite remember when Matthew died,  but -- and then she moved.  Amelia moved like to Burns  after he died.  Q   Who was Amelia?  A   It was Matthew's wife.  Q   And did you know Matthew -- Matthew Sam's father?  A  Vaguely.  He was Chief Matthew when we moved into the  country first.  Q   Now, what about the Hollands, did they stay --  continue to live at the reserve you've marked as  number seven?  A   Like now?  Q   Well, after -- after you first knew them did they  continue to live there?  A   Yeah, they lived there for a few years.  Q   And then what happened?  A   Then they moved away. 18664  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q When would that be?  2 A As far as I'd say early '40s to mid '40s.  3 Q Yes.  Did you see them again?  4 A The odd time that they would come back, but we never  5 saw much of them.  And not the whole family would come  6 back.  7 Q And did you continue to see them from time to time?  8 A No, I didn't.  9 Q Do you know where they went?  10 A I would think they went to Houston.  11 Q But do you have any personal knowledge of that?  12 A Not really.  13 Q No.  Do you know the -- can you recall the first names  14 of some of the Holland family that you knew in those  15 days?  16 A No, I can't.  17 Q Now, talking about the Seymours, did they continue to  18 live in that reserve that you've marked as number six?  19 A Only up to -- I think they left about the same time  20 the Hollands did.  21 Q And did they come back?  22 A Just periodically.  23 Q Did they continue to come back?  24 A No.  25 Q When did they stop coming back, as far as you can  26 recall?  27 MR. RUSH:  Isn't the question when is the last time you saw  28 them.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q When is the last time you saw them?  31 A That I don't know.  I can't remember.  32 Q Was it —  33 MR. RUSH:  No.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q Have you seen them in the last ten years?  36 A No.  37 Q Did you see them after -- after 1960?  38 A Not that I can recall.  39 Q Okay.  Now, did you have occasion to visit with the  4 0 Matthew Sams?  41 A Yes.  42 Q And would they visit you?  43 A When they wanted to borrow something, yes.  44 Q What would they borrow from you.  45 A Oh, sugar if they ran out, or coffee, or maybe some  46 tools that they needed to fix something.  That sort of  47 thing. 18665  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q What sort of a place were they living in?  2 A They had a nice big house.  3 Q What did Matthew Sam do as far as obtaining food, to  4 your knowledge?  5 A Well, he trapped and hunted and he fished.  He set  6 nets for fish, and that kind of thing.  7 Q Did your father do any trapping?  8 A Yes, he did.  9 Q And what sort of furs or animals would he be trapping?  10 A He was trapping muskrats and weasels and squirrels and  11 mink and marten and --  12 Q Did he trap any fisher?  13 A Yes, fisher and coyotes.  14 Q Did he trap any wolverine?  15 A Yes.  16 Q Did he trap any links?  17 A Yes.  18 Q And where was he doing that trapping?  19 A He trapped most of that on his own place on the ranch.  20 Q And did he sell the furs?  21 A Yes, he did.  22 Q To whom did he sell?  23 A To a buyer that used to come around.  24 Q Do you have personal knowledge of whether Matthew Sam  25 sold the furs he trapped?  26 A Not really.  27 Q Okay.  Did you do any trapping when you were growing  28 up?  29 A Yes.  We had to have our own little trapline for  30 pocket money.  31 Q Where was that?  32 A That was on Dad's ranch.  33 Q Now, I understand your parents passed away in 1958; is  34 that correct?  35 A 1958?  36 Q Yes.  37 A Yes.  38 Q Now, continuing to speak about the pre-war years, the  39 early years, did you hear the Indian people speaking  40 in their languages?  41 A No.  42 Q No.  Did they ever speak to you in the Indian  43 language?  44 A No, they didn't.  45 Q Did you ever learn Indian language?  4 6 A No.  47 Q How were the Indian people in those days, the Hollands 18666  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 and Seymours and Matthew Sams, dressed?  2 A   Pretty much the way we all dressed except, of course,  3 they wore moccasins more made out of their moose hide  4 and that than what we did.  But the women, they always  5 had dresses, which I always thought was unusual, and  6 they didn't wear slacks in them days.  But they pretty  7 well wore the same thing the white people did.  8 Q   And -- okay.  Did you learn any of the Indian names,  9 the people's Indian names?  10 A   No, I didn't.  11 Q   Did you hear them use their Indian names?  12 A   No.  13 Q   Now, what else did your father do besides trapping for  14 income in those days?  15 A  Well, he raised these cattle and sheep.  He would ship  16 cattle in the fall, and also he would ship the lambs  17 from the sheep he had.  And that's about it.  18 Q   Did you sell any eggs?  19 A   Yes, we sold eggs sometimes.  We didn't do it all the  2 0 time.  Some years we did.  21 Q   Now, to your knowledge, were the native people that  22 you've described hunting moose?  23 A   Yes.  24 MR. RUSH:  Well, let's —  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   What's the source of that knowledge?  27 A  Well, I've seen them hunting moose.  28 Q   What other game would they be hunting in those days?  29 A   Probably bear and deer.  30 Q   Do you have any knowledge of that?  31 A   I never actually saw them hunting bear.  They told me  32 they were hunting bear.  That was it.  But I have seen  33 them hunting moose.  34 Q   Where were they hunting moose?  35 A  Around that area west of the Francois Lake, Nadina  36 River Valley to what's like north of us, Tsichgass  37 Lake.  38 Q   Now, you mentioned a name.  We'll get the spelling for  39 that.  Perhaps you could show his lordship where that  40 lake is.  We are talking about Tsichgass Lake.  And  41 it's spelled T-S-I-C-H —  42 THE COURT:  T-S-I-C-H?  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  G-A-S-S.  Does your lordship have  44 that spelling?  45 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   Now, could you mark number eight on the map at that 18667  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 lake, please?  2 A   Yes, as soon as I find it here.  It's right here.  3 THE COURT:  North of the lake?  4 A   Yes.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  That's on the small map, my lord.  6 THE COURT:  M'hm.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   Would you describe to his lordship where that  9 Tsichgass Lake is where you've marked your eight,  10 please, Mrs. Peden?  11 A   Tsichgass Lake is about six miles from the west end of  12 Francois Lake.  And it's north -- north and northeast.  13 Q   Okay.  Thank you.  Have you been there?  14 A   Yes, I have.  15 Q   And how long have you been going there?  16 A   Since I've lived at the west end of Francois Lake.  17 Q   And how do you usually get up there?  How did you get  18 up there in those days in the '30s?  19 A   Horseback or with a team of horses.  There was an old  20 road.  21 Q   And who hunted moose up there, which of the native  22 people you mentioned?  23 A   It would be mainly the Matthew Sams.  24 Q   Now, do you know from your personal knowledge whether  25 the Matthew Sams, or the other native people, went  26 further afield to hunt game animals?  27 A   I know the Matthew Sams did.  2 8 Q   And where did they go?  29 A   They go towards the Wistaria side of the lake too, and  30 they hunted that way as well.  31 Q   Yes.  Is there some limitation as to the distance one  32 can go -- they could go in those days when hunting  33 moose?  34 A   No.  35 Q   Oh.  Once you've killed a moose how did they bring  36 it -- bring it back to their homes, from your personal  37 knowledge?  38 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, my friend is mixing up his pronouns.  39 I think this witness has personal knowledge that she  40 can say what she did, and she also has knowledge about  41 what she may see others have done.  I think my friend  42 should assist the witness about being a little more  43 specific whether he is directing it to her knowledge  44 of what she does or what she observed native people to  4 5 have done.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   Yes.  Mrs. Peden, I'm asking you what you understand 1866?  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 from your personal knowledge what the native people  2 may have told you or what you observed.  So I'm going  3 to ask you now speaking about the Matthew Sams.  After  4 Matthew Sam had killed a moose how did they return it  5 to their home; do you know that?  6 A   Yes, I do.  7 Q   And how do you know that?  8 A   'Cause I seen them do it.  9 Q   Very good.  How did they do that?  10 A   They usually had a team of horses, and they took their  11 horses out when they went hunting.  And depends on the  12 time of the year.  If it was winter they had a two  13 runner sleigh that the team of horses pulled.  And  14 Matthew and Amelia would go out in this, and they  15 would camp out, and they would butcher their moose and  16 they would haul it back in their sleigh.  If it was in  17 summertime and they happened to go on a packing trip  18 they would take the two horses and they would pack it  19 on the horses and bring it home.  20 Q   Okay.  Now, we should move on to the war years and the  21 post-war years, but I have another question about  22 those early years that I wanted to ask you.  You said  23 that you had visited the Matthew Sams; is that  24 correct?  25 A   That's right.  2 6 Q   And you -- did you eat at their home?  2 7 A   I have.  28 Q   What sort of things did you eat when you went to  29 visit?  30 A   Oh, it was not really a big meal.  Like a lunch or  31 just a cup of tea or cup of coffee, and they usually  32 had -- served you cake.  That's about all I ate there.  33 Q   Do you know what else they ate?  34 A   Yes.  At one time I was there when they were having a  35 meal and it was like a stew.  36 Q   Yes.  And to your -- in your observation, and from  37 your dealings with the Matthew Sams, can you compare  38 their -- the food that they were eating to the food  39 that you were eating, you and your family?  4 0 A   Pretty much the same.  I think maybe we had more  41 vegetables in our -- what we were eating than what  42 they have.  I mean, they, I think, existed mainly on  43 meat and fish, and that kind of thing.  44 Q   And you've already -- probably follows from what  45 you've said, but was the game plentiful around the  46 Noralee area where you and the Matthew Sams were  47 living? 18669  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  We didn't have any trouble getting any so I would say  2 they were plentiful.  3 Q   If you had an opportunity to shoot a moose close to  4 the home would you -- would you go on further to hunt  5 at greater distances?  6 A   No.  7 Q   Now, you talked about -- we'll move on then to the war  8 years.  And your brother was in the army, was he?  9 A   That's right.  10 Q   And what's your brother's name, please?  11 A   Barry Grainger.  12 Q   How is that spelled, the last name?  13 A   G-R-A-I-N-G-E-R.  14 Q   Yes.  So that was during the war he was in the army?  15 A   That's right.  16 Q   Now, you said in the mid '40s a telephone came in.  Do  17 you have any personal experiences relating to the  18 telephones coming in?  19 A  Well, when we got our telephone my family had to help  20 put the poles in to get it in.  21 Q   And where did the line come from?  22 A   It came from the Wistaria side of the lake from  23 Nadina, and it was two miles to our place on the north  24 shore of the Nadina River.  25 Q   And what about road development, how did that take  26 place say in the 1940s just after the war?  27 A  Well, the road like the one from Burns Lake?  28 Q   Yes.  29 A  Well, they -- the neighbours, they worked their taxes  30 off on the road at that time.  31 Q   Is that right?  32 A   That's how that four miles of road that I mentioned  33 just awhile back got put in.  All the neighbours got  34 together with their teams, shovels, picks, and that's  35 how that four miles was put in.  36 Q   When was that?  37 A   It would be in the '40s.  So I would presume mid '40s.  38 Q   And the people in the community used that road to get  39 to Burns Lake after that time?  40 A   That's right.  41 Q   And, to your knowledge, did the native people also use  42 the road to go to Burns Lake?  43 A   Yes, they did.  44 Q   I take it -- well, I'll ask you, did you continue to  45 hunt for your game meat through the 1940s?  4 6 A   Yes, we did.  47 Q   Your family? 18670  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And, to your knowledge, did the native people you  3 mentioned also continue to hunt?  4 A   The Matthew Sams I know did.  5 Q   And can you say whether the Matthew Sams were hunting  6 in the same areas that you were hunting?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Yes.  And were they --  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Yes.  Do you know about the -- whether the Hollands  11 and the Seymours were hunting before they left the  12 area?  13 A   I never saw them hunting.  14 Q   Now, did employment opportunities change through the  15 mid '40s, that you can recall, in the Francois Lake  16 area?  17 A   Yes, they did.  18 Q   And what way did that happen?  19 A  Well, the Morrison Knutson moved in, and they put in  20 the road to Tahtsa Lake, and that created a lot of  21 jobs for the people around the area.  22 Q   Could you show his lordship on Exhibit 55-C where the  23 location of Tahtsa Lake is, and please mark it with a  24 number nine.  25 A   It's Tahtsa Lake right here.  26 Q   Would you tell his lordship approximately how far from  27 Noralee that is?  28 A   That's 60 miles from -- not really Noralee, but from  29 the head of Francois Lake.  30 Q   Can you see the road that was built on that map that  31 you're looking at?  32 A   Yes, I can.  33 Q   Exhibit 55-C.  I'll give you an orange highlighter.  34 Perhaps you could highlight that road for his  35 lordship.  36 A   Start at the west end of Francois Lake and then follow  37 the Tahtsa road to Tahtsa Lake.  38 Q   And you've driven on that road?  39 A   Yes, I have.  40 Q   How long have you been driving on that road?  41 A   Oh, since the '40s.  42 Q   Well, perhaps you could put a number ten on that road,  43 please, with a green marker.  44 A  Anywhere on the road?  45 Q   Yes.  46 A   Okay.  47 Q   Thank you.  Have a seat, please.  Would you like a 18671  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  THE COURT  42  A  43  MR. macke:  44  Q  45  46  A  47  drink of water?  All right.  In addition to the construction project what other  employment opportunities became available in the '40s  after the war in those years?  There was some logging in the area.  That was one  fellow that logged and hired people to boom the logs  and bring them down the Nadina River into Francois  Lake, and then they would boom and take them to his  sawmill on the north shore of Francois Lake.  Who was that?  Jack Nicholson.  Where was his sawmill?  It was near the Francois Lake ferry landing, which  would be about 30 miles east towards Burns Lake on the  north shore.  You've mentioned Nadina River several times.  Could  you mark a number 11 on the map at the Nadina River so  his lordship will be aware of that, please.  It's kind of mixed up here.  Number 11.  Yes.  Okay.  It's -- it follows quite a ways here.  Perhaps you could just describe where it is for his  lordship.  It starts here at the west end of Francois Lake and  goes all the way up.  I'll put it over here where you  can see it better.  How far does that river run?  It goes right to Nadina Lake, and that's 30 miles from  the mouth of the river to the lake.  I take it the water runs from the lake into Francois  Lake, does it?  That's right.  So I'll put number 10.  Number 11.  Number 11 right here.  You've been to Nadina Lake, have you?  I have.  When did you first start going to that lake?  In the early '40s.  Fine.  We'll speak about that in greater detail then.  Just have a seat, please.  :  What number was the river marked?  Number 11.  JZIE:  Number 11, my lord.  Thank you.  Now, you say you started going to Nadina Lake in the  1940s.  Why were you going to there, to that lake?  My family, my husband and my son and myself, were on a  forest look-out and it was situated just off Nadina 18672  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Lake.  2 Q And when did you start going to that look-out?  3 A Early '40s.  4 Q Was it after the war that you --  5 A Yes.  6 Q After the war?  7 A M'hm.  8 Q So was it after your son was born?  9 A Yes, it was.  10 Q And your son is James Tourond?  11 A That's right.  12 Q And when was he born?  13 A '49.  14 Q So does that assist you in recalling when you started  15 going to the look-out at Nadina Lake?  16 A Yes, it does.  It should have been early '50s.  17 Q What were you doing at the look-out?  18 A It was a fire tower so we were watching for forest  19 fires, and giving weather reports, taking temperatures  20 of, you know, the moisture, and all this kind of thing  21 for forestry.  22 Q And for how many years did you do that?  23 A Six, I guess.  24 Q And what time of the year would you be up in the  25 forest look-out?  26 A Well, usually left home and we would go up there in  27 May and we wouldn't come out until middle of  28 September.  Sometimes the end of September.  It would  2 9 depend on the weather.  30 Q And did you come -- did you leave the look-out to get  31 supplies during that time that you were up there?  32 A Yes, we did.  33 Q Were there other people living or working in Nadina  34 Lake area?  35 A Yes, there was.  There was the lodge owner that --  36 Q What lodge was that?  37 A Nadina Lake Lodge.  38 Q Who owned that lodge?  39 A Joe Gourdeau.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's G-O-U-R-D-E-A-U, my lord.  41 Q When did you first meet Mr. Gourdeau?  Just  42 approximately.  43 A I would say late '50s.  44 Q And what was he doing at the lodge there that you  45 observed?  46 A Well, he was building a fish camp like for fishing  47 parties for people to come and stay at cabins built. 18673  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 And he has boats and he rents them.  And he has people  2 staying there for days or weeks, or spending their  3 holidays through the summer.  And he also guides and  4 he hunts, and so on.  5 Q   Now, did you have occasion -- you spoke about Jack  6 Nicholson, do you recall that?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Did you have occasion to see who was working for him  9 on his logging crews or at the sawmill?  10 A  Mainly on his logging crews I saw more of his  11 employees than I did on his sawmill.  12 Q   And who were the employees?  Just generally speaking,  13 were they white people?  14 A   They were mixed.  15 Q   Now, when you say mixed what do you mean?  16 A   I mean there were some natives and some white people.  17 Q   Now, did you continue to hunt and fish through the  18 1950s?  19 A   Yes.  2 0 Q   And did your family?  21 A   Yes, they did.  22 Q   Yes.  And did your -- what did your brother Barry  23 Grainger do as far as occupation after he returned  24 from the army?  25 A   He was on the work crew that put the tunnel through to  26 Kemano, the west end of Tahtsa Lake.  And he worked  27 there, I would say, two years.  2 8 Q   When did he return from the army?  29 A   It would be, I guess, in the early '40s.  30 Q   Would it be after the war?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And —  33 MR. RUSH:  Is it after the war or the early '40s?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   Did that assist you?  36 A  After the war.  37 Q   I was going to say does that assist you in recalling  38 when he returned from the army?  Just generally the  3 9 time.  40 A   I don't even remember if it was after the war.  I  41 can't remember the date.  42 Q   Okay.  Fine.  So he worked -- after the war he worked  43 on the Kemano project?  44 A   That's right.  45 Q   And then what did he -- we are talking about your  46 brother Barry Grainger.  What did he do after that?  47 A   He went in for a guiding -- being a big game guide. 18674  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22    ]  MR. RUSH  23    ]  MR. mack:  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Did he have any other guiding business?  Hiking, guiding and fishing.  When did he start big game guiding?  Just generally.  I guess early -- late '50s, early '60s.  And did you ever assist him in his business?  In the later years I did.  Periodically when he needed  my help I would assist him.  And is your brother alive today?  No, he isn't.  When did he pass away?  In 1983 in October.  And did you hear about the guiding business from time  to time through the '50s that he was operating?  Yes.  Did he tell you or describe the clients that he was  guiding?  Yes.  And I got to know quite a few of them, you know,  while he was working at that, like guiding.  And what -- where did the clients come from?  They were Americans mainly.  And why were they up -- up in the Francois Lake area?  Well,   I   object   to   that,   my  lord.  >JZIE:  What did they -- to your knowledge, what were they  doing when they came to the Francois Lake area?  They came as hunters to hunt big game, and they  usually hunted moose.  Any other animals?  And bear, grizzly and black bear.  And do some  fishing.  What -- did they hunt any mountain goat?  At times, yes.  And what type of fish would they be fishing?  Rainbow trout and char, and sometimes they would go --  go out for steelhead.  Where was the guiding area that your brother had, if I  can call it that?  It started at the west end of Francois Lake and then  goes west up Nadina River Valley and takes in the  Morice Lake and that area.  Okay.  You mentioned Morice Lake.  Would you show his  lordship, or note on the map where Morice Lake is, and  put a number 12 at that lake, please.  This is Morice Lake here.  I'll put number 12.  And you mentioned Nanika Lake.  Will you put a number  13 at that lake, please.  And this is Nanika Lake here. 18675  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q That's fine.  Thank you.  Now, have you been to Morice  2 Lake?  3 A Yes, I have.  4 Q When did you start going there?  5 A I'd say in the '50s.  6 Q How did you get there?  7 A There was a road there.  We used to drive.  8 Q Did your brother used to go there before the road was  9 built?  10 A Yes, he did.  11 Q And he told you that?  12 A Yes, he did.  And also I know he did, because he used  13 to help take the boat to the river.  14 Q I see.  How did he get to Morice Lake?  15 A He had to go up to the Morice River with the boat,  16 with a regular river boat.  That's the only way they  17 could get there.  Except sometimes they would go with  18 a pack train of horses.  19 Q And did he have a cabin or some other structure at the  20 Morice Lake?  21 A At the later years he had -- well, not the first few  22 years he was going up there.  And after the road was  23 in then they -- he had a cabin built at the lower end  24 of Morice Lake.  25 Q When you say "the lower end" do you mean the end where  26 the Morice River flows out?  27 A Yes, that's right.  28 Q So that's the northern part?  29 A That would be the -- that would be the east.  30 Q Yes.  Northeast?  31 A No.  It would be on the -- would be more like the  32 southeast or east end.  33 Q Okay.  All right.  Do you know Nanika Lake in the  34 sense have you been there?  35 A Yes, I have.  36 Q And when did you first go to Nanika Lake?  37 A About three years ago.  38 Q And how did you get there?  39 A We had to fly.  40 Q What sort of an airplane?  Just generally speaking,  41 was it a float plane that you went in?  42 A Yes, it was.  4 3 Q And where did you go from?  44 A We went from McBride Lake.  45 Q And where is McBride Lake?  46 A It's on the Morice River road, but it's --  47 Q Well, that's fine.  How did you get to McBride Lake? 18676  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  Proceedings.  A  We drove there.  We drove our supplies, and whoever  was going on these trips with us, and then the plane  would pick us up there and fly us into Nanika Lake.  Q   Can you mark McBride Lake on that map, please, number  14.  McBride Lake right here, and I'll put 14.  Thank you.  Have you continued to go back to Morice  Lake after you -- over the years?  Yes, we have.  Why would that be?  We go in there fishing, and also have taken hunters  goat hunting in that area, and picnicking and picking  berries and --  What sort of berries did you pick there?  Cranberries and huckleberries.  When do you pick those?  Usually in August.  Now, continuing to speak about your brother Barry  Grainger and his guiding business, did your brother  Barry Grainger ever tell you about meeting the native  people in his guiding area?  Not to my knowledge.  Did your brother ever tell you about seeing signs of  native people trapping or hunting in his guiding area?  No.  This is all hearsay, my lord.  I object to it.  It is hearsay.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  It is reputation evidence, my lord,  dealing with territory and deceased persons.  That's  the only way this evidence can be adduced.  It  certainly responds to some of the territorial  allegations made in this case.  Well, it's one thing to say that a deceased person  told me about title or occupation or something, but is  it the same thing for the witness to say my deceased  brother never said anything about something?  MACKENZIE:  In my submission it is, my lord.  And my  submission is that this is as cogent evidence of  reputation as to territoriality as actual statements.  Don't I then have to weigh the character of the  deceased, or not the character, the personality of the  deceased and say was he a talkative person or was he a  quiet person who never said anything.  I don't know if  he would likely have made a report on meeting natives  or whether he would have met all kinds of them and  never said a word about it.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, I can explore those fundamental  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR  THE COURT:  MR  THE COURT: 18677  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Proceedings  1 points certainly in examination of the witness and  2 asking the witness about her relationship and what her  3 brother reported to her about his trips.  But, in my  4 submission, it's certainly something that a brother or  5 a parent would say to members of his family if they  6 had met people, particularly people who were making  7 territorial claims to territory.  Mrs. Peden also  8 helped her brother in the guiding and it would be very  9 important to know that.  If someone were in there  10 making territorial claims it would seem to be a  11 logical thing that someone would tell their sister or  12 someone who was assisting them in this business.  13 THE COURT:  Well, at the moment it seems to me to be a tenuous  14 extension of the the rule relating to proof of title  15 or disproof of title by reputation guided from  16 declarations of deceased persons.  I should hear your  17 friends, I suppose.  Mr. Macaulay.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  I have no submission to make.  19 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  20 MR. RUSH:  This evidence isn't even close, my lord.  This is  21 evidence not directed at territoriality, but this  22 evidence is directed at bald hearsay about the  23 statements of a deceased person.  Presumably not  24 directed at all to the question of reputation of  25 ownership of territory, but directed at the question  26 of observations of use of the territory.  The  27 reputation rule -- this evidence was -- this type of  28 objection was disposed of very early by your lordship  29 over two years ago in the context of evidence that was  30 sought to be led from Mary McKenzie about a feast that  31 was reported in the newspaper, you might recall, in  32 1933, your lordship, and it was adduced for the  33 purposes of reputation evidence, and your lordship at  34 that time said that if it was within the ability to  35 call evidence one way or the other within that time  36 frame the evidence ought to be called.  But more  37 particularly the whole rule of the exception to the  38 hearsay rule with regard to reputation evidence is  39 aimed first at what is the reputation within the  40 community, and that is not a hearsay statement  41 communicated by A to B, but rather a statement made in  42 the context of the examination for its voracity within  43 a community context.  And that type of evidence was  44 led extensively with regard to all of the territories  45 of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en chiefs.  And, in my  46 submission, none of this evidence could be relevant in  47 the slightest, because as my friend says it's being 18678  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Proceedings  Ruling by the Court  1 led for the purpose of presumably negativing  2 territorial claims.  Yet, in my submission, the  3 purpose for leading it isn't aimed at territorial  4 claims.  It's aimed at what are the observations of  5 Mr. Grainger as they were passed on to this witness.  6 Having nothing to do, as your lordship may recall the  7 statement that you cited on your judgment that you  8 adopted from Millirpum, is my father told me that, and  9 the assessment that a statement of that kind has  10 within the community for which that statement would be  11 related.  And I say this has absolutely no basis --  12 no basis for the exception to the hearsay rule in this  13 question.  14 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, if it will assist my friend I'm  16 perfectly willing to reframe the question and direct  17 it specifically to territorial claims, and in the  18 sense of -- but I think if it's reframed in that  19 way --  2 0 THE COURT:  Well, don't you have a problem though in bringing it  21 within the narrow confines of this exception, that is  22 with relation to reputation.  The witness rather than  23 say I walked from Wistaria to Morice Lake and I didn't  24 see a living soul is merely giving a repetition of a  25 statement made by a deceased person about his  26 observations.  It doesn't go to the reputation of the  27 community at all.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, in my submission, my lord, whether — we  29 can get that in examination, but the reputation of  30 whether people were making claims to certain areas is  31 going to be something that's very important to the  32 guiding community and the small community of Francois  33 Lake.  The fact that there is no such claims made,  34 surely, is also as equally significant and to weigh  35 against what's admissible -- we are talking about  36 weight -- to weigh against the other alleged  37 territorial claim.  38 THE COURT:  Well, I'm against you on this, Mr. Mackenzie.  I  39 just don't think this qualifies as an exception to the  40 hearsay rule, as has been so much debated in this  41 case.  I think the witness can say what her  42 understanding of the reputation in the community which  43 she knew it was, but I don't think she can say what  44 her brother told her about his observations on the  45 trail.  It's another matter if her brother made a  46 statement to her about the reputation in the  47 community.  That might be different.  Although, but if 18679  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Ruling by the Court  1 he was never to have made such a statement might be  2 admissible, but the negative side of the question is  3 just as admissible as the positive side of the  4 question.  But I do not think that the witness can be  5 permitted just to repeat, or not even to repeat, to  6 say what her -- what her brother didn't say to her.  7 And I'm not sure that I captured it precisely, but  8 it's almost that what I take you're expecting her to  9 say that my brother told me he never saw anybody on  10 the trail.  That seemed to me to be an observation,  11 not a declaration regarding reputation of title.  But  12 you can consider that and if you have a further  13 submission to make on this question I'll be happy to  14 hear you after the morning adjournment.  Thank you.  15 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  16 short recess.  17  18 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  19  20 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  21 a true and accurate transcript of the  22 proceedings herein to the best of my  23 skill and ability.  24  25  26  27 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  2 8 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18680  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:30 a.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  If your lordship pleases, I  6 wish to re-formulate the question and then if my  7 friend objects, he may very well agree with the  8 question, in view of his comments we can have --  9 continue the argument then on the specific question.  10 We are speaking about your brother, Barry Granger,  11 Mrs. Peden, and what he may have said to you about his  12 guiding territory.  Now, this is the question I want  13 to ask you:  Did your brother ever tell you that a  14 native person had said to him, "This is my territory.  15 You do not have permission to guide or trap here"?  16 MR. RUSH:  I object to that.  17 THE COURT:  Well, isn't that simply an isolated or possibly  18 isolated statement?  Is it truly the other side of the  19 coin or is it something different again?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, in my submission — sorry, did  21 your lordship complete his comments?  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, in my submission, the allegation the  24 plaintiffs have made with respect to territorial title  25 in this area is a deceased person told me that the  26 house of so and so has owned, conserved and harvested  27 the resources of this territory since time immemorial.  28 That is an assertion of title which your lordship has  29 permitted.  It is a positive assertion of title.  And  30 my submission, the only way -- our instructions are  31 there was no assertion of title.  How do you call  32 evidence that there were no assertions of title?  33 What's the other side of the coin?  My submission is  34 that the question -- the evidence that I have asked  35 Mrs. Peden about meets the criteria of necessity and  36 trustworthiness.  It would be unfair to, in my  37 submission --  38 THE COURT:  But all it proves is that no one made that specific  39 claim to him.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's correct, my lord.  The man or, I am  41 sorry, my lord, it goes to weight, my lord, in our  42 submission.  We are not talking about admissibility in  43 our submission; it goes to weight.  Here is the person  44 who spent two or three decades hunting throughout this  45 area guiding and has never apparently had an assertion  46 of title brought to his attention in a way that he  47 would tell another member of his family. 18681  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Well, it is not for me, Mr. Mackenzie, to make  2 suggestions, but I am wondering whether introducing  3 her brother into the question is necessary.  Could you  4 not get the same result by asking her what her  5 experience has been with regard to reputation of  6 ownership in the community and would that include  7 whatever her brother has told her?  But it would be  8 least confined -- at least confined reputation and it  9 would be direct but I'd want to hear what Mr. Rush  10 says about that before I pass on it.  Why do you want  11 to get into what specific things her brother told her  12 or didn't tell her?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  I simply want to cover that time period, my  14 lord.  I will be asking Mrs. Peden that.  I will be  15 discussing that subject that your lordship mentioned.  16 THE COURT:  Well, I haven't a lot of confidence that — that I  17 fully canvassed the possibilities of this area but my  18 present reaction is that the -- is that the witness  19 may not pass on a specific statement made by a  20 deceased person about a native.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  May I say, my lord, that in  22 our submission that leads to the conclusion that only  23 positive assertions about territory ownership made by  24 deceased persons are admissible now.  25 THE COURT:  That troubles me and I think that is — if that is  26 what follows, it may be that I am in error, but I am  27 not sure that what you have just said is an accurate  28 reflection of this question.  I think what you have  29 just said may be a non sequitur.  Certainly I am  30 against the question you just posed.  I won't  31 foreclose you from trying it in a different way.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Without continuing — your lordship has ruled  33 and without continuing at length --  34 THE COURT:  You can pose a different question.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  But I pose the question rhetorically to your  36 lordship, whether your lordship would permit me to ask  37 whether Indians there asserted title to her brother  38 and could her brother give evidence of positive  39 assertions of title.  And if so, where does that leave  40 the person if there are no assertions?  41 THE COURT:  Well, I am finding some difficulty but it seems to  42 me I have already answered your question, I think I  4 3 have.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q   Did your brother also trap after the war, Mrs. Peden?  46 A   Yes, he did.  47 Q   Did he have a registered trapline? 18682  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A Yes, he did.  2 Q And where was his trapline?  3 A It was on the west end of Francois Lake, a part of  4 Nadina River Valley, and it sort of ran north and  5 south across the valley of both sides.  6 Q Did you ever see him on the line?  7 A Yes, I did.  8 Q Or did you go with him at any time?  9 A Yes, I did.  10 Q And what type of furs was he taking off that line?  11 A He was taking squirrels, weasels, mink, marten,  12 fisher, lynk, coyotes, wolves.  13 Q When you say lynk, do you mean lynx, 1-y-n-x?  14 A Lynx.  15 Q Yes.  Any musk-rat on that line?  16 A Yes, musk-rats also.  17 Q Any wolverine on that line?  18 A Yes.  19 Q Did he lease anyone else the trapline at any time?  20 A He did in the later years.  21 Q Whose line did he lease?  22 A Roy Morris.  23 Q And do you know Roy Morris?  24 A Yes, I do.  2 5 Q How long have you known him?  26 A For several years.  27 Q Would you say since he was about how old?  28 A I would guess possibly in his teens, maybe early  29 teens.  30 Q And did Roy Morris have a trapline to your knowledge?  31 A As far as I know he did.  32 Q And can you recall generally when your brother leased  33 that trapline?  34 A It would be '82 -- no, probably '81 and '82, in say  35 early '80s.  36 Q Early '80s, yes.  Did your brother continue to lease  37 that line until his death?  38 A Yes, he did, for I think a period of at least two  39 years I know of.  40 Q And what if anything to your knowledge -- well, did  41 you have any contact with Roy Morris with respect to  42 that trapline after your brother's death?  43 A He came to see me and he wanted to know if I would  44 rent it after my brother died because it was in the  45 estate at that time and I was the executor of the will  46 and all that stuff, and he wanted to know if I would  47 rent it like Barry did, my brother, and I said no, 18683  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 because I had no interest in it.  2 Q   Have you seen Roy Morris trapping on that line?  3 A   No, I haven't.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Have you seen anyone else trapping on that line  5 besides your brother?  I am talking about Roy Morris'  6 trapline area?  7 MR. RUSH:  Where is it?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   I will ask you where is Roy Morris' trapline area that  10 your brother leased?  11 A   It also started at the west end of Francois Lake and  12 it was on both sides of the lake, north up towards  13 Tsichgass Lake as I mentioned a little while ago, and  14 it also went south across the valley from the Nadina  15 Valley also.  16 Q   Did you ever see your brother trapping on that line?  17 A   Yes, I did.  18 Q   Did you ever go with him?  19 A   Yes, I did.  20 Q   Yes.  Have you ever -- and have you seen anyone else  21 trapping on that line?  22 A   Only since it was sold to John Mould.  23 Q   Who is John Mould?  24 A   He is a neighbour, had a small ranch across Nadina  25 River Valley from our place.  It is about three miles  26 from our place.  27 Q   Is he a white person?  28 A   Yes, he is.  29 Q   Have you seen him trapping on that line?  30 A   Yes, I have.  31 Q   What has happened or what did you do, if anything,  32 with Barry Granger's registered trapline following his  33 death?  34 A   It was sold.  35 Q   To whom did you sell it?  36 A   To a fellow by the name of Gary Lloyd from Smithers,  37 B.C.  38 Q   Is he a native person or a white person?  39 A   He is white.  40 Q   Have you seen him trapping on that line?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And when you say you saw him trapping, what did you  43 see him doing?  44 A   Setting traps and getting animals out of the traps and  45 skinning them and stretching them, and et cetera.  46 Q   And is it fair to say you saw your brother doing that  47 when you spoke about him trapping? 18684  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Yes.  And you saw John Mould doing those sorts of  3 things?  4 A   Yes.  I saw John Mould doing the same thing.  5 Q   And have you seen any other white persons trapping in  6 that area west of Francois Lake during your travels?  7 A   Yes.  There was some natives' trap at Poplar Lake.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Well, let's mark that.  Could you mark  9 that please on the map for his lordship, number 15?  10 THE COURT:  Just south of Sam Goosley, is it?  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q   No, my lord.  It's a long way, it is west of -- well,  13 Mrs. Peden.  14 A   Poplar Lake was -- that was the number.  15 Q   15, Poplar Lake, it is called Tagetochlain on the map.  16 We will get a spelling for that.  Before you tell his  17 lordship where the lake is, we'll get a spelling for  18 that, Mrs. Peden.  It is T-a-g-e-t-o-c-h-l-a-i-n.  And  19 is that lake also known as Poplar Lake?  20 A   It is.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Would you tell his lordship where it is in  22 relation to Francois Lake, please?  23 MR. RUSH:  I am sorry, I thought the witness said Faulkner.  It  24 was Poplar Lake?  25 THE WITNESS:  Poplar Lake, Tagetochlain on the map.  It is the  26 local name, Poplar.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q   Would you tell his lordship where that is, please?  29 A   It's west of Francois Lake, west into Francois Lake,  30 let's see, about 15 miles west of the west end of  31 Francois Lake.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have that yet?  33 THE COURT:  No.  It may not be on Mr. Macaulay's marvellous map.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, Mrs. Peden.  Does your lordship have  35 that location?  36 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Could you tell his lordship about your  38 observations of these native persons that you made at  39 Poplar Lake?  40 MR. RUSH:  Can the witness be directed to the time of her  41 observations, please?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   Oh, yes.  Could you tell me when -- have you seen the  44 native people trapping at Poplar Lake?  45 A   Yes, I have.  46 Q   What time of the year?  47 A   It would be in the spring of the year. 18685  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And what years can you say over a period or specific  2 years?  3 A   I would say when I observed them or observed them  4 mostly, I'd say it was the late '70s, early '80s.  5 Q   What did you observe that led you to conclude they  6 were trapping?  7 A  Well, I saw them setting beaver traps, I saw them  8 taking beaver out of the traps, and I have also --  9 they say they did have a small cabin on Poplar Lake  10 and also saw the dried skins on stretchers at their  11 cabin.  12 Q   And were you able to conclude what animals, if any,  13 other than beaver they were trapping?  14 A   No.  15 MR. RUSH:  What did she see, my lord, I think is the question,  16 isn't it?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q   Did you see them trapping -- did you see them trapping  19 animals other than beaver?  2 0 A   No.  21 Q   And do you know who those people are or were?  22 A   I can't remember their names.  2 3 Q   Do you know where they came from?  24 A   Came from Houston as far as I know.  25 Q   And are they still there today?  26 A   I think one of them is deceased but they don't --  27 their cabin has been burnt down and I haven't seen  28 them back there since.  29 Q   You haven't seen them since when?  30 A   Since, let's see, well, about three years ago I think  31 when their cabin was burnt down.  32 Q   Besides Poplar Lake, have you seen native people  33 trapping anywhere else in the area west of Francois  34 Lake?  35 A  Around Owen Lake.  36 Q   Okay.  And where is -- could you mark Owen Lake on the  37 map, please, under number 16?  38 A   This is Owen Lake right here.  39 Q   Can you tell his lordship where Owen Lake is, please?  40 A   It's about 20 miles from the west end of Francois Lake  41 on the Houston -- going on the road to Houston.  42 Q   And what direction from Francois Lake would that be?  43 A   It would be northwest.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  Does your lordship have that?  45 THE COURT:  Yes.  Did you mark it?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   Mark it as number 16.  And do you know who those 18686  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 people were?  2 A   No, I don't.  3 Q   When did you see those people, what time of year?  4 A   That would be in the spring also.  5 Q   And what years?  6 A   In the late, I'd say, the late '70s, early '80s.  7 Q   Have you seen them since the early '80s?  8 A   No.  9 Q   What were they trapping to your knowledge?  10 A   Beaver.  11 Q   Did you see that?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Now, did you see native people trapping any other  14 location west of Francois Lake?  15 A   No.  16 Q   Have you seen native people hunting in any of the  17 areas west of Francois Lake?  18 A   No.  19 Q   Have you seen native people fishing in any of the  20 areas west of Francois Lake?  21 A   No.  22 Q   Now, speaking about these -- the early years, we are  23 talking about the years we have covered -- we are up  24 to about the -- coming up to the '50s, talking about  25 the '30s, and the war years, and the '40s, and '50s.  26 During that time did any native person tell you that  27 you were on his property?  28 A   No, they didn't.  29 Q   Did any native person ever assert title over property  30 in your presence?  31 A   No.  32 Q   Did any native person ever tell you that you required  33 his or her permission to hunt, trap or fish on his  34 territory?  35 A   No, they didn't.  36 Q   Now, speaking about the native people in the area  37 today, that is in the 1980s, are there any native  38 people living in the -- at the west end of Francois  39 Lake today?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Could you tell his lordship who those native people --  42 who those people are?  43 A   There is one bachelor named Bill Sholtie.  44 Q   Do you know how to spell that name?  45 A   S-h something, I don't know.  46 Q   Fine.  I think it is S-h-o-l-t-i-e, my lord.  And do  47 you know Mr. Bill Sholtie? 18687  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A Yes, we do.  2 Q And where does he live?  3 A He lives just across the road from where we live.  4 Q And is that on the reserve?  5 A He is on the reserve.  6 Q So is your present home across the road from the  7 reserve?  8 A Yes.  9 Q Was that the reserve where Matthew Sam and his wife  10 lived?  11 A That's right.  12 Q And we have marked that on the map as number 5.  What  13 sort of a house, if any, does Bill Sholtie have?  14 A He has a good-sized house.  It's a government-built  15 house that they built for the natives and he has power  16 there.  17 Q Have you ever been to that house?  18 A Yes.  19 Q And to your knowledge do you have any knowledge about  20 what Bill Sholtie does as an occupation?  21 A Doesn't do very much of anything.  22 Q Do you have any knowledge whether Mr. Bill Sholtie  23 hunts?  24 A I have never seen him hunting.  25 Q Have you ever seen Mr. Bill Sholtie trapping?  2 6 A No.  27 Q Have you ever seen Mr. Bill Sholtie fishing?  2 8 A No.  29 Q Have you ever seen Mr. Bill Sholtie driving along the  30 road to Burns Lake?  31 A No.  32 Q Do you ever see Mr. Bill Sholtie outside his house?  33 A Oh, yes.  34 Q And when he is outside his house, what have you seen  35 him doing generally speaking?  36 A Well, he does -- tries to grow a little garden and he  37 tries to fix up his house, and he's fencing his area  38 right now so he's been building a fence all summer.  39 Q Are there other native people living in the west end  40 of Francois Lake?  41 A Yes, part native.  42 Q And who would that be?  43 A That would be the Wilsons, Shirley and Myles Wilson.  44 Q Now, Shirley Wilson is part native, do you say?  45 A Yes.  46 Q What leads you to say that?  47 A Well, she's just part native and part white. 186?  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q Did you know her parents?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And who were her parents?  4 A Jimmy Andrews.  5 Q Was he a native person or a white person?  6 A He is a native.  7 Q Who was her mother?  8 A Which was Julie, was a Morris.  9 Q Was she a white person or a native person?  10 A She is a native.  11 Q I see.  And what leads you to say that Shirley Wilson  12 is part native?  13 A Because she is.  She's Jimmy Andrews' granddaughter  14 and she's part white.  15 Q I see.  16 A She is part white.  17 Q Now, Shirley Wilson is married, is she?  18 A Yes.  19 Q And her husband is Myles Wilson?  20 A That's right.  21 Q You mentioned it.  Is he a white person or a native  22 person?  23 A He is white.  24 Q And do Shirley and Myles Wilson have any children?  25 A Yes, they do.  2 6 Q How many children do they have?  27 A Four.  2 8 Q And where do Mr. and Mrs. Wilson and their family  29 live?  30 A A mile east of our house on the road to Burns Lake.  31 Q And they are also on the reserve.  Is that the same  32 reserve where Matthew Sam used to live?  33 A That's right.  34 Q What sort of a home or house do Mr. and Mrs. Wilson  35 and their family live in?  36 A They have a big -- brand new big house.  37 Q Is that a recently constructed house?  38 A Yes, it is.  It's, oh, it can't be more than four  39 years old.  40 Q Have you seen Mrs. Shirley Wilson hunting?  41 A No.  42 Q Have you seen Mrs. Shirley Wilson trapping?  43 A No.  44 Q Have you seen Mrs. Shirley Wilson fishing?  45 A No.  46 Q Have you visited the Wilson's home?  47 A Yes. 18689  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And what occupation, if any, does Mrs. Shirley Wilson  2 have?  3 A  Well, she was working in the Burns Lake -- in the band  4 office.  I don't know whether she was a secretary  5 or -- I would say maybe a secretary, a clerk, I am not  6 too sure, but I know she was working at that one time  7 but I don't know whether she is there now or not.  8 Q   Do you know which band that would be?  9 A   No.  10 Q   Do you know there is a band office in Burns Lake?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   What leads you to say that?  Have you seen it?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Are there any other native or part-native people  15 living at the west end of Francois Lake?  16 A   No.  17 Q   Are there any native people living in the area west of  18 Francois Lake?  19 A   No.  20 MR. RUSH:  Well, what area?  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am going to say —  22 MR. RUSH:  Is my friend talking all the way to the Pacific Ocean  23 or is he going to confine it in some way?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q   When I say the area west of Francois Lake, I am  26 speaking about the area over to the -- to Morice Lake.  27 Are there any native people living in that area?  2 8 A   Not to my knowledge.  29 Q   Are there any native people living south to Tahtsa  30 Lake?  31 A   No.  32 Q   Are there any people living in the area south at Ootsa  33 Lake?  34 A   No.  35 Q   I want to ask you about the later years after the  36 1950s.  I want to ask you about your travels in those  37 areas we have just spoken about west and southwest of  38 Francois Lake and, first of all, I want to ask you are  39 you -- do you now have a guide outfitter's  40 certificate?  41 A   Yes, I do.  42 Q   And when did you start with that guiding business?  43 A   I started in '84.  44 Q   And why was that?  45 A  After my brother was deceased, I took over his guiding  46 area.  47 Q   Have you been guiding since that time? 18690  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Do you also have a -- do you get annual guiding  3 licences?  4 A   Yes, I do.  5 Q   Do you have any other licences?  6 A   I have an angling guide licence also.  7 Q   So do you guide fishermen as well?  8 A   Yes, if we get the parties.  9 Q   Before you obtained your guide outfitter's  10 certificate, did you assist your brother at any time  11 in his guiding?  12 A   Yes, I did.  13 Q   Did you have a licence when you were assisting him?  14 A   Yes.  You have to have an assistant licence to do any  15 guiding.  16 Q   Do you -- and I take it you have a guiding territory  17 related to your guiding outfitter's certificate?  18 A   That's right.  19 Q   And where is that guiding territory?  20 A   That starts the west end of Francois Lake and it goes  21 west to the end of Nanika Lake and Morice Lake.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Could you go to Exhibit 55C please, the map, and  23 show his lordship -- just describe to his lordship the  24 boundaries of your guiding area.  25 THE COURT:  What was the name of the other lake?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Nanika Lake, my lord.  27 THE COURT:  Perhaps you could mark it with a distinctive colour.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  I have a highlighter here.  Perhaps you could go  29 around your boundaries with a highlighter.  30 THE COURT:  It will be orange.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   Yes, an orange highlighter, my lord.  Just -- maybe we  33 could just wait a minute.  We have already marked one  34 in orange so I will have to get another colour.  Beg  35 your pardon.  We have a mauve marker here, my lord, it  36 is a highlighter.  37 Now, you are at the map now, Mrs. Peden.  Are the  38 boundaries of your area set out on the map?  39 A   Yes, they are.  40 Q   Could you now highlight the boundary then for his  41 lordship, please.  Just describe where they are?  42 A   Starts -- boundary starts right here where home place.  43 Q   Speak up for the reporter please.  44 A  My boundary starts at the home place or at the west  45 end of Francois Lake and it goes down the middle of  46 McBride Lake to the end of Morice Lake and it crosses  47 at the end of Morice Lake and it goes up Nanika 18691  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Mountain and takes the high -- and there to the divide  2 before it goes down to the ocean.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Your guiding territory doesn't go to the ocean,  4 it is the divide.  5 THE COURT:  No, to the divide she said.  6 THE WITNESS:  No, to the divide, and it comes around here,  7 follows the divide all the way down there ahead of  8 Nanika Lake and it comes across to there this way,  9 this way like that over here, and back to the west end  10 of the Francois Lake.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  12 THE COURT:  This is Nanika Mountain at your northwest corner or  13 near --  14 THE WITNESS:  No, Nanika Mountain is here off the end of Morice  15 Lake.  16 THE COURT:  And Nanika Lake is where?  17 THE WITNESS:  Nanika Lake is right here.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Your lordship will recall we landed the  19 helicopter at Nanika Mountain.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes, yes.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, Mrs. Peden.  I am showing to you a  22 document.  23 MR. RUSH:  There are several documents here.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q   At the top of this collection is a letter dated March  26 21, 1988, and the next page 2 is a Renewal of Guide  27 Outfitter's Certificate dated March 21, 1988, and the  28 third page is a letter to Mrs. Barbara Peden dated  29 December 24, 1985, and the fourth page is a Guide  30 Outfitter's Certificate dated December 24, 1985, and  31 on page 3 of that certificate is a signature, Barbara  32 Peden.  Is that your signature?  33 A   Yes, it is.  34 Q   And is this a copy of this guide outfitter's -- is  35 this a copy of your guide outfitter's certificate?  36 A   It is.  37 Q   And that's the certificate -- did you receive that in  38 December 1985?  39 A   Yes, I did.  40 Q   And did you also receive the other documents which are  41 attached to that certificate?  42 A   Yes, I did.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  I will mark that collection of documents as the  44 next exhibit, my lord.  45 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1090, my lord.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  47 18692  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (EXHIBIT 1090 - GUIDE OUTFITTER'S CERTIFICATE -  2 PEDEN - SCHEDULE A & B ATTACHED)  3  4 MR. RUSH:  What's the exhibit number?  5 THE REGISTRAR:  1090.  6 MR. RUSH:  My lord, my count is that this collection contains  7 eight pages.  8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q   Yes, that's correct, my lord.  This page 2 of this  11 collection, a letter dated or correction, the document  12 dated March 21, 1988 entitled Renewal of Guide  13 Outfitter's Certificate indicates that the certificate  14 number 361, is that your certificate?  15 A   That's right.  16 Q   Was extended until March 31, 1989.  Were you aware of  17 that?  18 A   Yes, I was.  19 Q   And what if anything has happened with respect to your  20 certificate since then?  21 A  Well, they are still figuring out of making a new one  22 or going to have a different one made or something,  23 and I haven't heard any more about it yet.  24 Q   You also have a guide outfitter licence, don't you?  25 A   Yes, I do.  2 6 Q   I am showing to you a document entitled Guide  27 Outfitter Licence apparently dated April 14, 1989, in  28 fact dated April 14, 1989, and there is a signature of  29 Barbara Peden on the lower left-hand corner.  Is that  30 your signature?  31 A   It is.  32 Q   And there are four pages in that collection.  There  33 are three other pages attached to the first page  34 which, my lord, are copies of the second page -- that  35 is a copy of the reverse of your licence?  36 A   That's right.  37 Q   And then the third page is Appendix B dated April 14,  38 1989, and that talks about quotas.  Is that attached  39 to your licence also?  40 A   Yes, it is.  41 Q   And the fourth page is dated May 2, 1989.  It is  42 entitled Amendment to Appendix B and is that also  43 attached to your licence?  44 A   Yes, it is.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I submit these four pages as the next  46 exhibit.  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes 1091. 18693  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2 (EXHIBIT 1091 - GUIDE OUTFITTER LICENCE - PEDEN)  3  4 MR. RUSH:  I wonder if my friend can clarify whether or not the  5 May 2, '89 or the last page in the sequence was part  6 of the document when she got it or was something  7 that's been appended since.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   We are referring to this amendment dated May 2, 1989.  10 You see that?  11 A   That's right.  12 Q   And that's currently attached to your licence, is it?  13 A   Yes, it is.  14 Q   When was it attached to your licence?  15 A   Right after I got it.  16 Q   Did you get this amendment separately?  17 A   Yes, I did.  18 Q   And then what did you do with it?  19 A   I put it with my guide outfitter's licence.  I have to  20 carry it with it at all times.  21 Q   I just refer you to the second page which is the  22 reverse of the licence.  There is a reference there to  23 guide outfitter's certificate number 361 and that was  24 your certificate as you said?  25 A   That's right.  26 Q   It says it was attached as Appendix A.  Was that  27 certificate attached to the licence?  2 8 A   Yes, it was.  29 Q   And it says that the privileges conferred on the  30 conditions contained in the certificate are hereby  31 incorporated and form part of this guide outfitter  32 licence.  And you read that when you got the licence?  33 A   Yes, I did.  34 Q   And now we are speaking about the certificate.  Was  35 that the guide outfitter's certificate we just  36 identified?  37 A   Yes, it is.  38 Q   As Exhibit 1090.  This is the Exhibit 1090, we showed  39 you this, and the certificate number 361 dated  40 December 24, 1985, that was the certificate that was  41 attached to your licence?  42 A   That's right.  That's my guide outfitter's  43 certificate.  44 Q   And referring again to Exhibit 1090, the certificate  45 documents, page 7, has a Schedule A entitled Guide  46 Outfitter Area - Barbara Peden - Certificate 361, and  47 what is that information in Schedule A? 18694  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   It explains the boundaries of my guide outfitter's  2 area.  3 Q   And have you read that information?  4 A   Yes, I have.  5 Q   And are those the boundaries of your area?  6 A   Yes, they are.  7 Q   I am showing you a document entitled B.C. Angling  8 Guide Licence dated May 1, 1989, and on the first page  9 of this collection of pages is a signature at the  10 bottom right-hand corner, Barbara Peden.  Is that your  11 signature?  12 A   It is.  13 Q   And the second page attached, is that the reverse of  14 your licence?  15 A   Yes, it is.  16 Q   Third page is entitled Appendix A, April 1, 1989 to  17 Angling Guide Licence number AG02372.  Is that  18 attached to your angling guide licence?  19 A   Yes, it is.  20 Q   And the fourth page is a letter to Barbara Peden dated  21 May 3, 1989.  Was that letter also attached to your  22 guiding licence?  23 A   Yes, it is.  24 Q   And when was that letter attached to your licence?  25 A   Right after I got it.  26 Q   Is that after you got the letter?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And did you attach it to your licence?  29 A   Yes, I did.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Submit that copy of the angling guide licence  31 consisting of four photocopied pages as the next  32 exhibit, my lord.  33 THE COURT:  1092.  34  35 (EXHIBIT 1092 - B.C. ANGLING GUIDE LICENCE - PEDEN)  36  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  For his lordship's information, can you indicate  38 on the map the major lakes contained in your guiding  39 territory?  Perhaps you could take --  40 THE COURT:  Is that necessary, Mr. Mackenzie?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  42 THE COURT:  Isn't that pretty obvious to look at the map?  There  43 are several big lakes in there.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q   Is Atna Lake in your guiding territory?  46 A   Yes, it is.  47 Q   Have you been to Atna Lake? 18695  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes, I have.  2 Q   And when did you first go to Atna Lake, can you  3 recall?  4 A   It was last year.  5 Q   And how did you get there?  6 A  We had to fly in.  7 Q   And who did you, or from where did you fly?  8 A   From McBride Lake.  9 Q   What type of an aircraft did you use?  10 A   It is a Beaver.  11 Q   And did it have floats?  12 A   Yes, it did.  13 Q   Who operates that aircraft?  14 A   It's the Burns Lake Air Service.  Lou DeBute is the  15 pilot.  16 MR. RUSH:  What was the name?  17 THE WITNESS:  DeBute.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q   Do you know how to spell that?  20 A   D-e-b-o -- I don't know.  21 THE COURT:  u-t-e?  22 THE WITNESS:  A-c something in it.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   Fine.  You have to -- and you use that air service in  25 your guiding business?  26 A   Yes.  That's the one we use all the time.  27 Q   And why do you need that?  Why do you have to use an  28 aircraft?  29 A   Some of those areas, the only way you can get into  30 them is to fly in with a float plane.  31 Q   And what other lakes do you have to fly into?  32 A   Nanika Lake is one, Kidprice, Stepp.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just hang on now.  K-i-d-p-r-i-c-e, and Stepp,  34 S-t-e-p-p.  Does your lordship have those in the area?  35 THE COURT:  I have been looking at the map, yes.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   Are these lakes in your guiding areas?  38 A   Yes, they are.  39 Q   Can you tell his lordship where those lakes are,  40 Kidprice and Stepp?  Perhaps you can just tell us in  41 relation to Morice Lake?  42 A   Beg your pardon?  43 Q   Can you tell him where they are in relation to Morice  44 Lake?  45 A   Show him on the map?  46 Q   Maybe you can show his lordship on the map.  Don't  47 bother writing the numbers, just show his lordship 18696  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 where they are on the map.  2 A   Okay.  Kidprice is right there.  3 Q   And where is that in relation to Morice Lake?  4 A   It would be south, southwest I guess of Morice Lake,  5 that's Kidprice and Stepp Lake is the next one down.  6 Just a chain of lakes, they all join together.  7 Q   Is that west or southwest or southeast?  8 A   It would be southwest.  9 Q   Okay.  And is there any access to those lakes other  10 than by air?  11 A   There is a type of a trail that goes along the chain  12 of lakes to the end of McBride or, excuse me,  13 Kidprice, Stepp, Anzak and to Lamprey Lake.  It is a  14 hiking trail.  15 Q   I will ask you about that.  Could you come -- just  16 come back and take a seat, please.  What sort of a  17 trail is that?  Could you describe that for his  18 lordship, please?  19 A   The forest service put that trail in a few years ago  20 and it's -- all it is, it is just a hiking trail and  21 there is a portage I think between Lamprey and Anzak  22 Lake, you have the portage.  23 Q   You gave two names there, Lamprey, L-a-m-p-r-e-y, and  24 Anzak, A-n-z-a-k.  Are those two lakes in your guiding  25 territory?  26 A   Yes, they are.  27 Q   And have you gone along that trail?  28 A   No, I haven't.  29 Q   Why don't you use that trail to get to those lakes?  30 A  Well, we just haven't gone in on that trail.  We can  31 hunt without having to use it.  If we have to, you  32 know, it's depends on the hunting.  33 Q   Was there any access to those lakes before that trail  34 was put in?  35 A   Yeah.  There is a road into it, Lamprey Lake.  36 Q   Is there any access to Kidprice Lake before that  37 trail?  38 A   No.  39 MR. RUSH:  How does she know that?  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q   Do you know whether there was any access to Kidprice  42 Lake before that?  43 A  Well, there was an old trail.  This one is recent but  44 there is an old, old trail into Kidprice.  45 Q   How do you know that?  4 6 A   By the maps.  47 Q   Have you seen any evidence of that trail? 18697  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes, I have.  2 Q   And have you seen anyone using that trail?  3 A   No.  4 Q   Can you say when you first saw that trail?  5 A   Since we have been guiding in that area.  6 Q   All right.  And what are the conditions along the  7 trail to your knowledge, the conditions of the  8 topography?  9 A  Well, it's fairly brushy country and it follows the  10 lake shores and the creeks that join all those lakes  11 together.  12 Q   Would you tell his lordship please how you -- just  13 generally how you conduct your guiding business, who  14 are your clients?  15 A  My clients are American hunters.  16 Q   And when do they come up to hunt?  17 A   Usually starts when hunting season starts which is for  18 the 10th of September, is when the moose season  19 starts, and we mostly have moose hunters and goat  20 hunters.  21 Q   And how long does that -- how long do you continue to  22 hunt?  23 A  We usually start when the season opens until it ends,  24 if we, you know, if our client calls for that many  25 weeks.  26 Q   When does the season end?  27 A   November 15.  28 Q   Are you speaking about the moose-hunting season?  29 A   That's right.  30 Q   Now, there are some -- attached to your licence there  31 is a document relating to quotas.  What -- how do the  32 quotas relate to your guiding territory business?  33 A  Well, the game department, they allot all guides so  34 many animals and that's where our quota is.  35 Q   Is that each year?  36 A   Yes, it is.  Sometimes it carries over and sometimes  37 it stays the same.  38 Q   And what animals do your clients hunt now that you  39 have carried on -- started carrying on the guiding  40 business?  41 A  Well, our clientele go for moose mainly and mountain  42 goat.  43 Q   Yes.  44 A  And grizzly bear and black bear.  45 Q   And do you also have an angling licence?  Do your  46 clients also fish?  47 A   Some of them. 1869?  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  MR. RUSH:  13  THE COURT  14  MR. macke:  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  Where would you take them fishing just generally?  Well, like Morice Lake, any lakes that we can possibly  drive into because a lot of them like to combine their  hunting trip with a fishing trip, and a lot of the  clientele are limited in time so you sort of have to  work them in.  And what fish do your clients fish?  Usually rainbow trout.  Now, have you seen any native people in your guiding  territory?  No.  Is that ever, my lord?  :  I don't know.  JZIE:  Have you seen any native people in your guiding  territory since you took over the business in 1984  other than the people you have already spoken about at  Poplar Lake?  No, I haven't.  Part of Poplar Lake is in your guiding territory?  Yes, it is.  Have you seen any native people in your guiding  territory other than the Poplar Lake people?  No.  And the Hollands and the Seymours before 1984?  No.  I am speaking about -- really I am speaking about your  brother's territory.  Was your territory similar to  your brother's territory?  Similar but it's changed.  Yes, and how -- what's the difference between your  brother's territory and yours?  Well, Joe Gourdeau's area was -- actually it's really  not changed that much.  They did take out some -- like  when Joe Gourdeau applied for his guide outfitter's,  they gave him an area which almost is in the middle of  mine.  Yes.  And also there is an another piece that was taken off  along the Morice Lake area on the -- along the river,  actually Morice River, so it cut it down a little bit.  And you referred to Mr. Gourdeau earlier, the person  at Nadina Lake; is that correct?  That's right.  When you were assisting your brother in the guiding  business, is that -- was that in the 1950s, was it  not? 18699  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   That's right.  2 Q   Did you meet any native people during those years in  3 the guiding territory?  4 A   Not other than what I have already mentioned.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, would this be a convenient time?  6 THE COURT:  Yes, two o'clock, please.  7 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  8 two o'clock.  9  10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30 p.m.)  11  12 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  13 a true and accurate transcript of the  14 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  15 best of my skill and ability.  16  17  18  19  20  21 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  22 United Reporting Service Ltd.  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18700  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  5 Q   Before lunch, Mrs. Peden, we were talking about flying  6 into Stepp Lake and Kidprice Lake; do you remember  7 that?  8 A   That's right.  9 Q   Can you also get into your guiding territory by road?  10 A   Part of it.  11 Q   Which lakes would you get to by road in your guiding  12 territory?  13 A   You get into Morice Lake, McBride Lake, Lamprey,  14 Poplar Lake, Blue Lake.  15 Q   That's Blue Lake?  16 A   Blue Lake.  Elbow lake.  17 Q   Elbow?  18 A   Elbow — Elbow Lake.  19 Q   E-L-B-O-W.  20 A   Oh, let's see.  21 Q   Is Bill Nye Lake in your area?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Can you get into that lake by road?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   That's Bill Nye, N-Y-E.  And is Duck Lake anywhere in  26 your area?  27 A   Yes, Duck Lake is in my area.  28 Q   Can you get there by road?  2 9 A   Yes, you can.  30 Q   Do you go into any part of your guiding area by foot?  31 A   Yes, in places we do.  Different areas like we'll  32 drive a four wheel drive vehicle and then we leave the  33 vehicle and we walk to different small lakes, swamps,  34 areas for hunting.  35 Q   What are some examples of those?  36 A  Well, out of Blue Lake that I just mentioned, and  37 Elbow Lake, and those little areas which were logged  38 over areas that have logging areas into and you can  39 only go so far, and you walk to these various areas to  4 0 hunt.  41 Q   So can you say whether you visited most of the lakes  42 in your guiding area?  43 A  Most of them, yes.  44 Q   Now, speaking about Morice Lake you talked about berry  45 picking there.  Do you go berry picking on a regular  46 basis or just -- to Morice Lake?  47 A  We do every year. 18701  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And what time is that in the year?  2 A   That would be in August, probably the latter part.  3 Middle to latter part of August is usually when we're  4 picking our cranberries.  Good cranberry patch up  5 there.  6 Q   We were speaking this morning about your brother Barry  7 Grainger.  Did your former husband, Peter Tourond,  8 also assist Barry Grainger in his guiding business?  9 A   Yes, he did.  10 Q   And was Mr. -- did Mr. Tourond pass away?  11 A   Yes, he did.  12 Q   And when was that, approximately?  13 A   Ten, 12 years ago.  14 Q   And you have another brother, Martin Grainger?  15 A   That's right.  16 Q   And did he help Barry from time to time also?  17 A   Yes, he did.  When he first got his guiding area they  18 guided together.  19 Q   And when Barry got -- first got his guiding area?  20 A   Yes.  It's in the early part of the years with  21 guiding.  22 Q   I'd like to speak about -- oh, and your son James  23 Tourond, has he assisted in the guiding business?  24 A   Yes, he does.  25 Q   Did he assist your brother Barry Grainger?  26 A   Yes, he did.  27 Q   Does he work with you also?  28 A   Yes.  He's my assistant guide.  29 Q   Now, I'd like to speak to you about your travels  30 outside the guiding area.  Have you travelled in the  31 area southwest of Francois Lake outside the guiding  32 area?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And you told us that you had driven along the road to  35 Tahtsa Lake?  36 A   That's right.  37 Q   Is there some reason why you would be travelling in  38 those areas?  39 A  Well, at that time I was doing fire -- camp-fire  40 patrols as -- and I would be on those roads at that  41 time.  42 Q   This fire patrol period, when was that, what time of  43 the year?  44 A  Well, that could be anywhere from May to September  45 depending on your weather.  It's usually when the  46 weather is extreme fire hazard and forestry puts on  47 patrols to check on campers and how many is in the 18702  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 area and if they're putting their camp-fires out.  2 That sort of thing.  3 Q   When did you carry out those duties?  4 A   Oh, for the last, let's say, late '70s, early '80s.  5 Q   Would you on the map show his lordship where you  6 travelled on those patrols, and perhaps you --  7 A   Do you want me to highlight them?  8 Q   Perhaps you could highlight the roads there.  I'm  9 sorry.  We have an orange highlighter we've already  10 used for the Tahtsa Road, so.  Speaking about the  11 forest fire prevention patrols now.  12 A   Okay.  I start at the west end of Francois Lake and I  13 take the Wistaria Road, and I travel this road right  14 on through and come up to Rainbow Lake and over to  15 junction, and then I would head towards Andrew Bay  16 and --  17 Q   And Andrew Bay is on Ootsa Lake?  18 A   That's right.  Which was named from Jimmy Andrews.  19 And I travel all these main roads like, so right over  20 to here.  And that was the end of the road there and  21 then you can make a full circle like this.  And there  22 are several campsites on this road.  23 Q   You're speaking about the series of roads west of  24 Wistaria; is that correct?  25 A   That's right.  And there's also a road that comes  26 off -- this is all logging area.  These are all  27 logging roads over in here, Shelford Hills area.  28 Q   Now, you said at Shelford Hills?  2 9 A   Right.  30 Q   Yes.  31 A  And then it goes right on over and it joins with the  32 Tahtsa Road, which I've already highlighted.  33 Q   You've connected that series of logging roads west of  34 Wistaria?  35 A   That's right.  36 Q   Back up to the Tahtsa Road; is that right?  37 A   That's right.  38 Q   So you have a circuit there, do you?  39 A   Yes.  And —  40 Q   Please, continue.  41 A   Then I would also go up the Tahtsa Road and I would go  42 to -- I'd go into the Poplar Lake, which is  43 Tagetochlain, and I check those campsites in there.  44 And then I continue on up the Tahtsa Road from Poplar  45 Lake and I would go to -- there's a campsite at Nadina  46 Lake, and then I go from there to Twinkle Lake.  47 There's a big campsite there.  And then I'd go on up 18703  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 towards Tahtsa Lake and I would come to Sweeney Lake,  2 and there's a campsite there, and right on up to  3 Tahtsa Lake which is the end of the road, and there's  4 a campsite right there.  5 Q   When you say campsites --  6 A   Forest campsites for campers or people camping with  7 maybe a table or two in small areas.  8 Q   Yes.  Any other roads that you travel during your fire  9 prevention patrols?  10 A   Yes.  I would come back to the junction here and go  11 towards Houston.  I would go to Owen Lake, and at  12 sometime -- I didn't do it all the time, I had a few  13 trips right on up then to the Morice Lake area on the  14 Morice Lake Road.  Then there's a big campsite.  15 There's also a campsite on McBride Lake.  16 Q   Are there any Forest Service facilities at McBride  17 Lake?  18 A   There's a forest cabin there, and there's a big  19 campsite on Morice Lake.  20 Q   Yes.  Any other roads that you travelled in the area?  21 A   That pretty well -- well, yes.  There's a logging road  22 in here.  23 Q   You're speaking about the Wistaria area now?  24 A   Yes.  I'm going back on the Wistaria Road just across  25 the lake, actually across the Nadina River Valley to  26 the southwest of the lake.  This is all log shoal  27 which takes in Blue Lake and Elbow Lake and Ross lake.  28 Q   Yes.  2 9 A  And that makes a swing right over and it comes right  30 back to the Tahtsa Road again a little bit west of  31 Poplar Lake.  32 Q   So you've actually highlighted the logging road in  33 there, but it's not shown on the map?  34 A   That's right.  35 Q   You've shown the route, the approximate route of the  36 road?  37 A  Approximately, yes.  38 Q   Okay.  Any other roads in that area that you've  39 travelled on your fire prevention patrols?  40 A   Yeah, there's a short one here.  Yeah, there's a short  41 one here which is -- goes across from Holland's  42 reserve where the Hollands lived, which is on part of  43 the Tahtsa Road, and it's a short -- it was the old  44 Tahtsa Road, and so you go through the reserve and  45 then you join over again on the Tahtsa Road and the  46 other side.  So there's sort of a loop there.  And  47 there's -- I went into Duck Lake. 18704  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   You said you went into Duck Lake?  2 A   That's right.  Figure it out again.  So I go -- I'm  3 going into Duck Lake here.  I'll just highlight that  4 Duck Lake.  And it goes on past Duck Lake into the  5 clear cut.  That's all logged over area.  6 Q   You've highlighted all those roads with an orange  7 marker, haven't you?  8 A   That's right.  9 Q   Are there any other roads in that area that you  10 haven't travelled on?  11 A   Not that I can recall right now.  There's some --  12 there's a lot of new logging roads, and that's been  13 put in say recently that I haven't been on yet.  14 Q   All right.  Thank you.  15 A   But they're sort of in the same area.  16 Q   Could you tell his lordship what you do on your fire  17 prevention patrols?  18 A   I leave home at about eight o'clock in the morning and  19 I'd start out on these roads, and every campsite I  20 came to I would see how many people were there.  I had  21 to take a record of the type of vehicles they were  22 driving, take down their license plate numbers, and  23 ask them how long they had been there, how long they  24 were going to be there.  And I did that at every  25 campsite I came to.  And if it happened to be a real  26 extreme heat, or when the forestry would close the  27 roads for campers I would have to go back to all these  28 campsites, which I did every day while it's really  29 hot, and give them so much time to leave the  30 campsites.  And I'd have to go back in the next day  31 and see if they had left, and if they didn't I would  32 give them so much time to leave, and see that all  33 campsite fires were out and all the people were out of  34 those areas when it was extreme heat for a forest fire  35 danger.  And I did that for, well, as long as it was  36 really, really hot.  I would do it maybe two weeks,  37 every day for two weeks solid and then I might miss a  38 weekend if it cooled down.  Sometimes do it three  39 days.  Usually your campers start coming out about  40 Friday night so you would check Friday night, then you  41 would check Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday,  42 because usually then they leave Sunday night so you  43 want to see if they leave a camp-fire burning.  And  44 then we -- maybe then I wouldn't go out for Tuesday  45 and Wednesday and Thursday if it's cooling down.  Then  46 I would start again on Friday.  And if it's extreme  47 heat then I would do it steady on all these roads I 18705  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 was travelling.  That's up to Tahtsa and Owen and  2 across the lake to Andrew Bay and that way.  3 Q   And did you see any native people on these trips that  4 you made on your fire prevention patrols?  5 A   No, I didn't.  6 Q   Well, were you able to -- were you able to see other  7 people in the area driving on the roads?  What sort of  8 volume would there be?  9 A   Sometimes I wouldn't see a soul and sometimes I'd see  10 quite a few people.  But a lot of them were out of  11 state like Americans.  Some were from Europe.  You  12 know, like tourists touring the area.  A lot of the  13 campsites had more Americans and Europeans in it than  14 actual Canadians.  15 Q   During these trips I take it you had an opportunity --  16 or did you have an opportunity to see where logging  17 was being carried out?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And how far -- how far into the area is the logging  20 taking place?  Has there been logging?  21 A  Well, all the way from the west end of Francois Lake  22 and up to Nadina Lake and past -- goes up to Hill-Tout  23 and Gourdeau Lakes.  24 Q   What's the name of that lake you mentioned?  25 A   Hill-Tout and Gourdeau and Duel Lake.  26 Q   What's the last one?  27 A   Duel.  2 8 Q   D-U-A-L?  29 A   D-U-E-L, I think.  30 Q   I see.  D-U-E-L.  Did you ever go down into that area  31 during the wintertime?  32 A   Yes, at times.  33 Q   And what would be those occasions?  34 A  We go ice fishing.  35 Q   Where would that be?  36 A   Nadina Lake, Hill-Tout Lake, Duel Lake, Poplar Lake.  37 That's providing that the roads were open up at the  38 time.  And with the logging that kept a lot of those  39 roads open so a person couldn't drive in in the  4 0              wintertime.  41 Q   Did you see any native people when you were in at  42 those lakes ice fishing?  4 3 A   No, we didn't.  44 Q   What type of fish were you catching?  45 A   Rainbow trout.  46 Q   Now, when the roads -- when the logging roads were not  47 plowed was there any other way of getting into that 18706  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  THE COURT  44  A  45  MR. macke:  46  Q  47  area?  Only with a snow cruiser.  Snowmobile.  Have you gone in on a snowmobile?  No, I haven't.  When you went in ice fishing or travelling in the  winter did you have occasion to see any trappers,  people trapping?  No.  When did you see people trapping?  Usually in the spring.  And what month would that be?  Oh, that would be -- it all depends on break up.  Could be end of May, June.  First part of June.  And you've mentioned Gary Lloyd and John Mould and  Barry Grainger.  Did you meet any people in the west  and southwest of Francois Lake that were trapping?  No, I didn't.  Did you meet any native people who were trapping?  No.  Now, as far as the Nadina Lake Road and that area how  is that access related to where you live?  Like the road -- Owen Lake Road is part of the access.  Yes.  And then it was the Morrison Knutson put it on up to  Tahtsa Lake from there, and then the Nadina Lake Road  or Nadina Lake, excuse me, itself is just off that  road.  Do you see people going into the area from your home?  Yes.  Why is that?  Well, they go right past our door for one thing, and  then we travel the road, and if we're up there at the  lodge we know, you know, those ones we've seen go by  are up at the lodge.  You say -- which lodge is that?  Nadina Lake Lodge.  Now, where does the road that goes west past your home  go?  It goes west past my home and it ends up at -- ends  right at Tahtsa Lake the one way on the southwest  direction and the other one goes right to Houston, and  also Morice Lake on the other Y.  :  What lake?  Morice Lake.  JZIE:  Can people who are driving come into the Nadina Lake  area without going past your home? 18707  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And how is that?  3 A  Well, there's a road -- that connection there it goes  4 from -- well, okay.  If you came in from Houston you  5 would turn off to Nadina Lake Road which would be, oh,  6 maybe 15 miles west of our place would be the Y on the  7 road, and we wouldn't see anybody going through there.  8 Q   Now, you've been talking about Nadina Lake.  Is there  9 a fisheries operation on the Nadina River somewhere?  10 A   Yes, there is right there, not very far from where the  11 river empties into or empties out of Nadina Lake.  12 Q   What is that operation?  13 A   It's a Federal Fisheries channel.  14 Q   Have you been there?  15 A   Rearing channel.  16 Q   I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to interrupt you.  17 A   It's a spawning channel.  18 Q   Have you been there?  19 A   Yes, I have.  20 Q   And is the Provincial Government, to your knowledge,  21 involved in any fisheries activities in that area?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   What is that?  24 A  Well, they're doing some -- putting gravel in part of  25 the channel -- I shouldn't say channel, but the Nadina  26 River for hoping to increase the trout population.  27 Q   Have you seen that?  28 A   No, I haven't.  29 Q   Now, we spoke about your clients earlier for the  30 guiding business.  Do your clients have to obtain  31 licenses of any sort?  32 A   Yes, they do.  33 Q   What sort of licenses are those?  34 A   They're big game licenses, non-resident licenses, and  35 you have to obtain them from the government office.  36 Either they do or we do.  And we do it for our clients  37 because it makes it simpler.  38 Q   What about fishing?  39 A   Fishing licenses also.  40 Q   You have personal knowledge of that, your clients  41 getting fishing licenses?  42 A   Oh, yes.  43 Q   Do you get them on behalf of your clients sometimes?  44 A  We do if we're asked to, otherwise if they're not  45 going to stay too long they get their own.  46 Q   Where do you get these hunting licenses and fishing  47 licenses for your clients? 1870?  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   From the government office either in Houston or Burns  2 office.  3 Q   Which government office is that?  4 A   Government Agent's office in both places, both Houston  5 and Burns Lake.  6 Q   Is there any requirement to get tags of some sort?  7 A   Yes, they have to have a species tag.  8 Q   Would you describe that to your lordship, please?  9 A   Each hunter that comes in like a non-resident -- well,  10 anybody has to have a hunting license and species tag  11 for every animal that they take.  12 Q   And where do you obtain those for your clients?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And where do you get those?  15 A  At the Government Agent office too.  16 Q   And I think it is probably evident, but what  17 Government Agent are you speaking of?  Which  18 government, to your knowledge?  19 A   I guess -- Provincial, I guess.  20 Q   What about royalties, do you pay any royalties?  21 A   Yes, I do.  22 Q   And could you describe that process for his lordship,  23 please.  24 A  Well, each animal that's taken you have to pay a  25 royalty on each.  Like a moose is different.  Each  26 animal has its different price.  Like moose is $20 --  27 $20 a moose.  That's a royalty on one moose.  And  28 black bear, I think it's ten.  I can't remember the  29 rest of them, but each one you have to pay a royalty  30 on each animal.  31 Q   And who pays the royalties?  32 A   I do.  33 Q   And to whom do you pay those royalties?  34 A   To the Minister of Finance, I guess.  35 Q   Do you send them somewhere -- send the cheque  3 6 somewhere?  37 A   Yes.  I'm allowed to send through the Fish and  38 Wildlife game office in Smithers.  39 Q   There's some other lakes -- you mentioned several  40 lakes.  Do you know where Shelford Lake is?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And where is that, generally speaking?  43 A   That's on that road that -- coming in from Andrew Bay  44 I made that circle and came back and hit the Tahtsa  45 Road there.  It's in that circle.  46 Q   So you've been there several times?  47 A   Yes. 18709  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q Bittern Lake, B-I-T-T-E-R-N, do you know where that  2 is?  3 A Yes.  4 Q And where is that lake?  5 A It's west of Nadina Mountain.  6 Q Have you been there?  7 A M'hm.  8 Q Yes?  9 A M'hm.  Yes.  Excuse me.  10 Q Park Lake, do you know Park Lake?  11 A Yes, I do.  12 THE COURT:  You're not talking about Pack Lake, are you?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, as it turns out, my lord, yes.  I'll ask  14 Mrs. Peden whether she agrees.  15 Q Do you know if that lake is also Pack Lake, or have  16 you heard the name Pack Lake?  I'll rephrase the  17 question.  18 A It sounds familiar, but I would have to say no.  19 Q Okay.  Where is Park Lake?  20 A It's on that old Tahtsa Road from -- it goes past the  21 Holland reserve, or where the Hollands lived.  22 Q Yes.  23 A It's just a little west or northwest of that.  Right  24 there.  It's within half a mile of the reserve.  25 Q Where the Hollands used to live?  26 A That's right.  27 Q Have you been to that reserve?  You said you used to  28 drive by there, didn't you?  29 A That's right.  30 Q Is there a cemetery there; do you know?  31 A Yes, there is.  32 Q And have you been there recently?  33 A I haven't been there this year, but I was there last  34 year.  35 Q And the cemetery is still there?  36 A Oh, yes.  37 Q Is anybody living there?  38 A No, there isn't.  39 Q Do you recall that that -- oh, how is that cemetery  40 located with respect to where you remember the  41 Hollands living?  42 A It's -- well, like there's a creek, I guess they would  43 call it Park Creek -- I don't think there is any name,  44 drains into the Nadina River right there right on the  45 reserve.  The big house was built near the creek and  46 the road which is there now right between the graves  47 and the house, which was what, the length of this room 18710  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 apart, and I think there's -- there's either six  2 graves there and they're all -- of course, it's all  3 falling down now.  And they were all fenced in and  4 they had corrugated iron or tin covers on it.  5 Q Yes.  Jones Lake, have you been to Jones Lake?  6 A Yes.  7 Q Where is that?  8 A That's southwest in the -- from the west end of  9 Francois Lake -- southwest from the end of Francois  10 Lake about, let's see, say 20 miles.  11 Q Have you been to Ross Lake?  12 A Yes.  13 Q Where is that?  14 A It's in the same area.  And there are only -- lakes  15 are -- they're three, four miles apart.  It's all in  16 that logging area that's just recent.  17 Q Co-op Lake?  18 A That's across the lake from our place straight south.  19 You get to that on Wistaria Road.  20 Q You've been there?  21 A Yes, I have.  22 Q Long Lake?  23 A Long Lake is off the Wistaria Road also.  24 Q Rainbow Lake?  25 A That's off the Wistaria Road also.  26 Q You've been to those lakes?  27 A That's right.  28 Q Frypan Lake, where is that?  29 A That's near Bittern Lake, in the same area.  30 Q And you mentioned Lamprey Lake?  31 A Lamprey Lake, yes.  32 Q You've been to those lakes?  33 A That's right.  34 Q Now, did you see any signs of native villages or camps  35 at those lakes?  3 6 A No, I didn't.  37 Q Have you seen any sign -- apart from Poplar Lake and  38 what you've already described have you seen signs of  39 native presence in any of those lakes in your guiding  40 territory?  41 A No.  42 Q Have you seen signs of native presence at any of the  43 lakes in the area southwest of Francois Lake?  44 A No.  45 Q Have any native Indians ever told you that you were on  46 his or her territory?  47 A No. 18711  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q I -- just before I go on I have to ask you -- I forgot  2 some questions about the early years and the native  3 people in the area.  You remember you were telling me  4 about the native people you knew in the area?  5 A That's right.  6 Q Did you know Alec Michell?  7 A Yes, I did.  8 Q And where did he live?  9 A He lived east of our place right where we were at the  10 west end of Francois Lake, and he -- and it's east of  11 the reserve, and he was just off the reserve.  12 Actually, his place bordered the reserve and he lived  13 on the north shore of Francois Lake.  14 Q Is that the reserve where Matthew Sam lived?  15 A That's right.  16 Q That you marked as number five on the map.  17 And what occupation did Alec Michell have?  18 A I really don't know if he had any occupation.  19 Q Did he hunt?  20 A I never saw him hunting.  He was a bachelor.  21 Q Yes.  And what sort of house did he have?  22 A He had a little log cabin.  23 Q Did you ever see him fishing?  24 A Not that I recall.  25 Q Okay.  Did you know Peter Alec?  26 A Yes.  27 Q Was he a native person?  28 A Yes.  29 Q Where did he live?  30 A I don't know really.  He didn't live there.  I can't  31 remember.  32 Q Did he have a family?  33 A I don't recall.  34 Q Did you see him hunting?  35 A No, not as far as I know.  I never saw him out  36 hunting.  37 Q Did you see him fishing?  38 A No.  39 Q Now, you spoke about the Seymours earlier.  Was one of  4 0 the Seymours you knew Enoch Seymour?  41 A Yes, I knew Enoch Seymour.  42 Q E-N-O-C-H.  And was Enoch Seymour an elder person or  43 younger person when you knew him?  44 A He was -- he was a younger person.  He was a lot older  45 than I was at that time.  46 Q Did any of those -- I think we've covered this, but  47 did any of those people ever tell you that you were on 18712  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Indian territory?  2 A   No.  3 Q   Did any of those people ever tell you that you  4 required permission to go on Indian territory?  5 A   No.  6 Q   You spoke about going into Atna Lake by air.  Can you  7 get into Atna Lake by boat?  8 A   Not very easily.  You would have to portage your boat,  9 and that's a pretty rough deal.  10 Q   Why?  11 A   There's quite a falls on the river.  12 Q   Which river is that?  13 A   I guess the Atna River.  I don't know if there is any  14 name for it.  15 Q   Yes.  And why don't you take your clients in there by  16 boat?  17 A   Because it's too hard to take them in there.  It would  18 be too much like packing, backpacking, and it's pretty  19 rough terrain to do so with hunters.  20 Q   You told us about the native people that you knew in  21 the early days and the native people who were living  22 in Francois Lake area now.  Have any of those native  23 people ever told you their native names?  24 A   No, they haven't.  25 Q   Have they ever told you the names of their clans or  26 houses?  27 A   No.  28 Q   Thank you.  I think you answered this.  Did you ever  29 learn the Indian language?  3 0 A   No, I didn't.  31 Q   When the natives spoke to you did they speak to you in  32 English?  33 A   Yes, they did.  34 MR. RUSH:  Second time.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Now, I'd like to ask you about some names.  36 And, my lord, these are the names of the territorial  37 claimants in this area, chiefs who claim these  38 territories, and I'm going to indicate the location  39 and the exhibit number for the territorial affidavit  40 relating to the territory.  41 Q   Starting off with Atna Lake and Nanika Lake, and  42 that's a Goohlaht Territory, Exhibit 669, Section A.  43 Do you know Lucy Namox?  44 A   No, I don't.  45 Q   Do you know Seymour Morris?  4 6 A   No.  4 7 Q   Do you know Jimmy Thomas? 18713  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   No.  2 Q   Do you know Stanley Morris?  3 A   No.  4 Q   The next area; Morice Lake, McBride Lake, and this is  5 Woos, Exhibit 664, Section B.  Do you know Roy Morris?  6 A   Yes, I do.  7 Q   And has Roy Morris ever told you that you were on his  8 territory?  9 A   No, he hasn't.  10 Q   Has he ever told you that you require permission to  11 guide in his territory?  12 A   No, he hasn't.  13 Q   Did you know Topley Matthew Sam?  14 A   I do know him, but not well.  15 Q   I'm speaking about Topley Matthew Sam.  16 A   Yes, I know who he is.  17 Q   And has he passed away?  18 A   I'm not sure.  19 Q   Okay.  Do you know Gordon Hall?  20 A   No, I don't.  21 Q   Did Topley Matthew Sam or Gordon Hall -- well, you  22 don't know Gordon Hall.  Did Topley Matthew Sam ever  23 tell you you were on his territory?  24 A   No, he hasn't.  25 Q   Did he ever tell you you required permission to be on  26 his territory?  27 A   No.  28 Q   The next area is Bill Nye Lake and North Poplar Lake.  29 This is the house of Yax, Y-A-X, Tsowilges,  30 T-S-O-W-I-L-G-E-S, Exhibit 307.  Do you know Sarah  31 Layton?  32 A   No, I don't.  33 Q   Do you know Christine Holland?  34 A   No, I don't.  35 Q   Next area is Poplar Mountain and Nadina Mountain,  36 Gisdaywa.  We don't have a territorial affidavit for  37 that.  Do you know Alfred Joseph?  38 A   No, I don't.  39 Q   And now I'd like to ask you about the house  40 territories along -- around Francois Lake.  And the  41 first is the area around Colleymount,  42 C-O-L-L-E-Y-M-O-U-N-T.  Do you know where Colleymount  43 is?  44 A   Yes, I do.  45 Q   And could you tell his lordship where that is, please?  46 A   It's 20 miles east of the west end of Francois Lake on  47 the Burns Lake Road going to Burns Lake. 18714  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40    ]  MR. RUSH  41  A  42    ]  MR. mack:  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  And which shore is it on?  On the north side of Francois Lake.  This is a Smogelgem Territory, Exhibit 670, Section B.  Do you know Leonard George?  No, I do not.  Do you know a person called -- whose name is Charlie  Pist'aii?  No.  P-I-S-T-'-A-I-I.  Next area is Nadina Lake, and the  area is Goohlaht, Exhibit 678, Section A.  I've  already asked you about Lucy Namox.  Did you know  Jimmy Andrew?  Yes, I did.  Yes.  And did Jimmy Andrew once live -- I think you  told us this.  He once lived near your home?  Yes, he did.  Did Jimmy Andrew ever tell you that you were on his  house's territory?  No, he didn't.  Did he ever tell you that you required his permission  to be on that territory?  No.  And the forest look-out you told us about was at  Nadina Lake, was it not?  That's right.  The next area is Tahtsa Lake.  That's Exhibit 666,  Section A, my lord.  And did you ever know Chief  Louie?  Not personally.  I've heard of the man, and I know  there was such a man.  Did you know Baptist Louie?  No, I didn't.  When you say you don't know these people you've never  met anyone who say they're these people, is that what  you mean?  Yes.  I can't recall meeting face-to-face.  Yes.  I'll rephrase that question, my lord.  You said  you don't know several of these names, does that  mean -- what does that mean?  Yes.  Well, I just don't know anybody with that name.  >JZIE:  Yes.  Did you ever -- speaking about this last  territory, Tahtsa Lake, did you know Harvey Naziel?  No, I don't.  Do you know -- or did you know Moses David?  Yes. 18715  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  THE COURT  39  A  40  MR. macke:  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  And did Moses David ever tell you that Tahtsa Lake was  his house territory?  No, he didn't.  You carried out your fire prevention patrols down  there, you said?  Yes.  Did Moses David ever advise you that you required  permission to go into the Tahtsa Lake area?  No, he didn't.  Now, I want to ask you about the other guide  outfitting operations of which you have personal  knowledge.  Could you now, please, go to the map and  tell his lordship which, if any, of those guide  outfitters in your area that you have visited  personally, using the map to show his lordship to whom  you're referring, which territories you're referring?  Okay.  Perhaps you could start with Mr. Gourdeau, number  nine.  You mentioned his name.  You knew him?  Yes, I did.  And is he a guide outfitter?  Yes, he is.  I think you've already indicated that.  Is he active  today in guide outfitting?  Yes, he is.  Have you been to visit his operation recently?  Yes, I have.  When was the most recent time you visited his  operation?  Last month.  And what -- what sort of operation is he running there  that you could observe?  Well, he has a -- I guess you would call it a fish  camp where he rents boats, and he has cabins which he  rents to various tourists that stay there, and he  has -- he's got about five cabins and I guess as many  boats .  :  This is at Nadina Lake?  This is right at Nadina Lake Lodge.  JZIE:  And do you know Mr. Blackwell, number eight?  Yes, I do.  Have you visited his operation?  Yes, I have.  What's his name?  Stanley.  Is he -- is he a guide outfitter? 18716  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A Yeah, he was.  This map isn't right, because his son  2 Gary has taken over his area.  It should be Gary  3 Blackwell.  Instead of S. Blackwell it should be G.  4 Blackwell in that area.  5 Q Yes.  I would like you to tell his lordship if there  6 are any changes in that map.  That map is supposed to  7 show the situation in 1984.  8 MR. RUSH:  '87.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q You know Stanley?  11 A I do.  12 Q You know his son Gary?  13 A Yes, I do.  Gary.  14 Q Have you visited their operation?  15 A Yes, I have.  16 Q Where is that?  17 A That's at Wistaria.  18 Q You've already told his lordship where Wistaria is.  19 What did you observe when you visited their operation  20 there?  21 A They had cabins to accommodate their hunters, and like  22 that was mainly their base camp, because they go out  23 in their territory and they have cabins in different  24 places, which I haven't been to.  25 Q Okay.  26 A I've just been to their base camp.  27 Q When was the most recent time you were there?  28 A I was there last year.  2 9 Q And are they active now?  30 A Oh, yes.  Gary is very active in guiding.  31 Q Do you know Mr. Hugh Cowan at number 10, north of  32 Francois Lake?  33 A Yes, I do.  34 THE COURT:  How do you spell that?  35 A Cowan.  C-O-W-A-N.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q And where is his operation based?  38 A He's on the north shore of Francois Lake, and his area  39 goes north from there.  4 0 Q And have you known him -- how long have you known him?  41 A Since '36.  42 Q And did you have any participation in his business at  43 any time?  44 A Yes.  I guided for him for two years.  45 Q When would that be?  46 A It would be say 12 years ago.  47 Q And which -- where did he draw his clients from in the 18717  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 time that you were guiding with him?  2 A They were Americans also.  3 Q And what sort of game were they hunting?  4 A They were hunting moose, bear.  5 Q And when is the last time you visited his operation?  6 A Last week.  But it's his home base.  I mean, he guides  7 right out of his home base.  8 Q Is he active today?  I mean this year.  9 A Yes.  May I say something?  10 Q Yes.  11 A Mr. Cowan -- Hugh Cowan and H. Thorn have the same  12 area.  It was Hugh Cowan's originally for years and he  13 sold it to Harold Thorn, which is this H.H. Thorn, it  14 looks like, but it's Thorn you pronounce it.  He lives  15 at Topley, or up that way.  Hugh Cowan retains so much  16 on his side of the valley like, and he hunts just a  17 portion, and Harold Thorn hunts another portion, but  18 they're all in the same area.  19 Q Do you know Harold Thorn?  2 0 A Yes, I do.  21 Q Have you been to his base operations?  22 A No, I haven't.  23 Q Have you seen him or any of his clients hunting?  24 A Yes, I hunted with him.  I was an assistant guide with  25 Hughie Cowan at the time that Harold Thorn was an  26 assistant guide with Hughie Cowan at the time.  They  27 weren't really his clients, but I was with him on the  28 hunting trips.  29 Q Mr. Thorn, what number is beside his name on that map?  30 A 15.  Excuse me, it's 15.  31 Q Do you know the other Blackwell, A.E. Blackwell?  32 A Yes, I do.  33 Q What's his name?  34 A Allan.  35 Q How well have you known him?  36 A As well as I know Stanley.  Since we come in the  37 country since '36.  38 Q Is he a guide outfitter?  39 A He was -- he's retired.  40 Q Do you know who has the territory now?  41 A Yes.  It's Bob Neilson at Vanderhoof.  42 Q And did you ever see Mr. Allan Blackwell's operation  43 when he was guiding there?  44 A His base camp.  45 Q Where was that?  46 A That was on the north shore of Ootsa Lake.  47 Q Can you say where it was just approximately? 18718  B.L. Peden (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  THE COURT  33  MR. macke:  34  THE REGIS1  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Do you want me to mark -- should I mark it?  Yes.  Mark it with number 17.  If you can tell his  lordship where it is.  It's called Streatham on the map.  How is that spelled?  Can you see it?  S-T-R -- I can't quite make it out.  I think it's S-T-R-E-A-T-H-A-M.  Streatham.  What number was that?  Number 17.  17.  That's his base camp right on the Ootsa Lake  shore there.  Okay.  Could you take your seat again, please, if you  wish.  When did you last visit Mr. Blackwell's camp at  Streatham?  Last year.  Mr. Neilson has the camp now, or has the territory  now?  Yes, he has the territory now.  Do you know him?  Yes, I do.  Have you -- do you know if he operates out of the same  base camp?  No.  You don't know?  No, I mean he doesn't operate out of the same base  camp.  Do you know where he operates from?  Out of Vanderhoof.  I see.  Have you been to his operation in Vanderhoof?  No.  :  Is it convenient for an adjournment?  JZIE:  Yes, my lord.  PRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  short recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 18719  B.L. Peden (For Province)  in chief by Mr. Mackenzie  cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:15 p.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   Thank you, my lord.  Now, Mrs. Peden, based on your  7 experiences since 1936 and your discussions with  8 people in the community around Francois Lake, both  9 native and non-native, what is the understanding in  10 the community about the ownership of the lands in the  11 area where you live and where you guide, apart from  12 reserve lands and privately owned lands?  13 A   It's Crown land.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  15 THE COURT:  Ms. Russell?  16 MS. RUSSELL:  My lord, at this time I don't see that there will  17 be any cross-examination of this witness, thank you.  18 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Rush.  19  20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:  21 Q   You were born in Lloydminster you told us?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   What date was that?  24 A   1929.  25 Q   And your brothers were born in Lloydminster?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And how long had your family lived in Lloydminster?  2 8 A  Well, my mother was five years old when she came over  2 9 from England and they have lived there until we moved  30 to B.C.  31 Q   Your father come from England?  32 A   No, he didn't.  He came from Ontario.  33 Q   You moved to B.C. in 1936?  34 A   That's right.  35 Q   Your age was seven?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And your brother, Barry, how old was he?  38 A  What would he be?  Well, he died when he was 62 and he  39 just had his birthday in September so you will have to  40 subtract.  41 Q   How much older than you was he?  42 A   He's -- I've got to think.  Oh, about six years.  43 Q   And Martin?  44 A   He is ten years older than I am.  45 Q   And your father's name?  4 6 A   James.  47 Q   And mother? 18720  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   Eleanor.  2 Q   And you moved to the south shore of the west end of  3 Francois Lake?  4 A   That's right.  5 Q   And stayed there for about two years; is that right?  6 A   That's right.  7 Q   And where -- did you live on a piece of land there or  8 on someone else's land or do you recall?  9 A   I think we rented a house there in Nadina.  I am  10 presuming we rented it because we didn't own the  11 house.  I think it was -- I have a feeling it -- just  12 thoughts of my own that it was probably owned by the  13 Frank Gailwit (phonetic) that lived there and I think  14 my dad rented it from him.  I am not sure of that.  15 Q   And after two years you moved to the Nadina River?  16 A   That's right.  17 Q   And you stayed -- I think you stayed at a ranch owned  18 by somebody else?  19 A   Yes.  Well, there was no buildings on this ranch.  It  20 was -- a man owned this land, like he leased land for  21 his herd of cattle that he owned and my father ran  22 like as a ranch manager type or a cattle foreman or  23 whatever you'd like to call it.  24 Q   So there was no dwelling on this piece of land?  25 A   No, there was no dwelling at all.  26 Q   Where did you live?  27 A  We had to build our own one.  We were at Nadina before  28 we moved in.  Those two years prior to that, my father  29 and my two brothers built a dwelling that we could  3 0              move into.  31 Q   And was the dwelling that you built on the land where  32 the cattle ranch was?  33 A   Right.  34 Q   And you said that your father eventually purchased  35 that land?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   What's the lot number, do you know?  38 A   2589 or 2489.  39 Q   And when did he purchase that?  40 A   Oh, boy, I would say in the early '40s is the closest  41 I could put it.  42 Q   And he purchased that from the gentleman who ran the  43 cattle ranch?  44 A   That's right.  45 Q   What was his name?  46 A   Bill Simpson.  47 Q   Now, how long did you personally live at that dwelling 18721  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  MR. WILLMS  41  MR. RUSH:  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  with your family?  Let me see.  Oh, until about '47.  Is 1947 when you got married?  '48.  Where did you move to in '47?  Well, we didn't -- we were on -- not in the same  house.  We were on the same land.  We had our own  cabin.  And in '48 you married Mr. Tourond?  Yes.  And did you continue to live with Mr. Tourond in the  cabin on the same land?  Just for maybe a few months and then we moved towards  Francois Lake.  That's east towards Burns Lake.  Where did you move to?  Right where the ferry crossing is.  Well, can you --  Which they call Francois Lake.  Could you help us just identify that, please, by -- is  there some feature there that would help us identify  as to where you moved?  Well, only by miles.  I would say it was three miles  west of the Francois Lake ferry landing on the north  shore of Francois Lake.  How many miles is it east of Noralee?  Say 31 miles.  Actually, it is 31 miles from the head  of the lake, not Noralee.  All right.  31 miles from the head of the lake?  Right.  You could find that on the map, could you?  Yes, I could.  All right.  I'd like you to put the next number if you  will on the place where you moved.  Did you stay there  for a period of time by the way?  Yes, I did.  How long did you stay there?  I think we stayed there two years.  That's '48 to '52?  Around there.  :  That's four years by my count.  That's your count.  '48 to '50?  Something like that, yes.  Just a second.  Where did you go after that?  And then we started -- we moved to fire look-outs,  started working for the forest service and we went to  several different areas on these look-outs each year. 18722  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q   I understood that was a seasonal occupation, mainly in  2 the summer?  3 A   Yes, it was.  4 Q   Where did you live in the winter?  5 A  We lived in several places.  Logging camps.  Where my  6 husband would find work in logging camps, we would  7 move to wherever these logging camps happened to be.  8 Q   Where would these logging camps happen to be?  9 A  And I would say in those years the one we moved to was  10 north of Burns Lake, I forget the name of the lake.  11 We were there one winter.  12 Q   North of Burns Lake?  13 A   North of Burns Lake towards Babine.  14 Q   How long were you there?  15 A  We were there the one winter I recall.  16 Q   All right.  So that's one winter.  Where else did you  17 spend time in logging camps?  18 A  And then we moved back to Nadina River and we moved to  19 a cabin on my dad's place.  20 Q   When was that, do you remember?  21 A   I guess that next year or that next -- that year or  22 whatever it was.  23 Q   Are you able to recall when it was that you did that?  24 A   Not right to the date, no.  25 Q   Tell us some of the other logging camps that you  26 stayed at with your husband?  27 A  Well, that was the main one because we -- my husband  28 worked for this logging camp which was straight south  29 across the valley from where we were living which was  30 Nadina River, and it was in the Nadina River Valley  31 where this sawmill started up and he worked several  32 winters for the same outfit.  33 Q   Which was?  34 A   Garska Sawmills.  35 Q   And while he was working with Garska Sawmills, where  36 were you living?  37 A   In that cabin on my dad's place.  38 Q   Okay.  Now, did you stop living at that cabin on your  39 dad's place at some point?  40 A   Periodically, yes, because we'd go to these look-outs  41 in the summertime so we'd be gone all summer.  42 Q   Yeah.  And I understood that that happened for about  43 six or seven years?  44 A   That's right.  45 Q   And after that?  46 A  And then we purchased our own place.  47 Q   And where was that? 18723  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   That was a mile northwest or, excuse me, a mile  2 northeast, directions all mixed up, of the home place.  3 Q   Okay.  4 A  Which was lot 324.  5 Q   And how long did you live there?  6 A   Twenty-one years.  7 Q   Okay.  And that was on the Nadina River Road?  8 A   That was on the -- actually that place would be on the  9 Owen Lake Road which is Tahtsa Road.  Owen Lake Road  10 is all combined.  11 Q   And after 21 years where did you move?  12 A  And then I moved to Trout Creek.  13 Q   Trout Creek?  14 A   That's right.  15 Q   Where is that?  16 A   It's ten miles east on the north shore of Francois  17 Lake.  18 Q   East of what?  19 A   East of the home place of where I was living.  20 Q   Okay.  And my crude estimate of the times puts that at  21 about 1978 that you would have moved there.  Does that  22 sound about right?  23 A   Yeah, that's a little -- should have been more like  24 early '70s.  25 Q   Okay.  And how long did you live at the Trout Creek  26 area?  27 A   For about a year.  28 Q   Yes.  And then where?  29 A   Then my husband sold the place and -- well, may as  30 well tell you right in here now.  I was divorced so --  31 and then I remarried, and this was another name which  32 is Peden now, this was like my husband's now name.  33 Q   Yes.  34 A  And that's where we lived and he sold the ranch.  35 Q   This is the place at ten mile?  36 A  At Trout Creek.  37 Q   Yes.  38 A   Then we bought a travel trailer.  39 Q   Yes.  4 0 A  And we moved to -- which was Hugh Cowan's place which  41 is right at Trout Creek and we lived in our travel  42 trailer and my husband is a carpenter and he did  43 carpenter work around the lake's district and odd jobs  44 and all this kind of thing.  45 Q   And do you still live in that travel trailer at  46 Cowan's place?  47 A   No. 18724  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q How long did you do that then?  2 A Right up to ten years ago, but not right at Cowan's  3 place.  We moved around, like wherever the jobs took  4 us, we took our trailer and we moved there.  5 Q I see.  So you --  6 A But our travel trailer was our home, let's put it that  7 way.  8 Q So wherever your husband, Mr. Peden, obtained work as  9 a carpenter, you would take the travel trailer and  10 move to various jobs around the area where he worked?  11 A That's right.  12 Q And did he only work around the Francois Lake area?  13 A Mostly, yes.  14 Q Did he work other places?  15 A Yeah.  He worked at Houston once.  16 Q Did he work in Burns?  17 A Well, he worked in Burns but he didn't -- we didn't  18 move there, we just travelled there.  19 Q Yes.  2 0 A That's why we were at Hugh Cowan's place.  21 Q Can you just give the court some examples of other  22 places that your husband worked other than at Francois  23 Lake?  24 A Just one other place at Houston, he worked there for a  25 short job, and Burns Lake, and around the -- just  26 around the area there around Francois Lake.  27 Q All right.  And at some point did you stop living in  28 the trailer home?  29 A Yes.  30 Q All right.  And when was that?  31 A About ten years ago.  32 Q And where did you move to?  33 A I moved to -- right back to the home place again which  34 is lot 324.  35 Q That's the one on the Owen Lake or Tahtsa Lake Road?  36 A That's right.  37 Q All right.  And is that where you are now?  38 A That's right.  39 Q The size of the ranch that your father purchased, can  40 you tell us what that is in acres?  41 A 120 acres.  42 Q And the place that you have on the Owen Lake Road?  43 A It isn't my place, it is my son's place.  44 Q All right.  45 A And I am not too sure of the acreage.  46 Q Thank you.  Now, am I correct in saying that you  47 married Mr. Peden somewhere in the early '70s? 18725  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Thank you.  Now, one of the things that you said in  3 the early part of your evidence was that you knew the  4 Matthew Sams, and do I take it when you say the  5 Matthew Sams, you knew Matthew Sam and his wife,  6 Amelia?  7 A   That's right.  8 Q   And would it be fair to say that you have known the  9 Matthew Sams or Matthew Sam himself and his wife  10 Amelia from about the time that you first moved to the  11 north shore of Nadina River --  12 A   That's right.  13 Q   -- to about the time that Matthew Sam passed on about  14 six or seven years ago I think you said?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Right.  And I didn't quite understand your evidence on  17 this, but I took it to be that when you were living at  18 your father's ranch, that Matthew Sam lived across the  19 road from you.  Is that right?  20 A   Not at the ranch, no.  Where at this -- where we are  21 living now, it's right -- he is our neighbour right  22 there just across the road from us right where we are  23 living now.  24 Q   It is not where your father's ranch was located?  25 A   No.  2 6 Q   But it's where you are now?  27 A   Right.  28 Q   Okay.  I didn't understand that.  Now, is that close  29 to the shores of Francois Lake?  30 A   The reserve is right on the Francois Lake but the  31 place where we are living is not on the lake.  32 Q   You're back from the lake?  33 A   That's right.  34 Q   And the reserve is across from your --  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   -- place?  37 A   It is east, on the east line.  38 Q   All right.  And that's where Matthew Sam and his wife  39 Amelia lived when you knew them; is that right?  40 A   Right, mm-hmm.  41 Q   And over that period of 30 plus years that you knew  42 him, you must have had frequent contact with him?  43 A   Yes, we did.  44 Q   And with Amelia as well?  45 A   That's right.  4 6 Q   And did you know Matthew Sam, did you know him to go  47 by a particular name? 18726  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   Just by Matthew Sam.  2 Q   You never heard his name as Francis Lake Matthew Sam?  3 A   No.  4 Q   Did you ever hear him called the Tatla Lake Matthew  5 Sam?  6 A   No.  7 Q   Did you -- you knew him to be an Indian?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   A Carrier?  10 A   I don't know what -- where he is from.  I don't know  11 what kind of an Indian he is.  I mean, I don't know  12 what his tribe name is or anything.  13 Q   I see.  In the 30 odd years that you were there living  14 across from him, did it ever occur to you to ask him  15 what kind of Indian he was or what tribe he was from?  16 A   No.  17 Q   And you told us that Matthew Sam never spoke his  18 language to you?  19 A   That's right.  20 Q   Did you know that he spoke another language which was  21 an Indian language?  22 A   I would say yes, because if he is with other natives,  23 they spoke native between themselves.  24 Q   So as between native people you heard what you thought  25 was a native tongue being spoken?  26 A   That's right, because I couldn't understand.  27 Q   Yes.  Did you ever ask him what language he was  28 speaking?  2 9 A   No.  30 Q   Why not?  31 A   I just presumed it was an Indian language or native  32 language and took it for granted.  33 Q   Wasn't it of interest to you to know what he was  34 speaking?  35 A   Not really.  36 MR. RUSH:  Why not?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  What relevance is that, my lord?  38 THE COURT:  Pardon me?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  What relevance is that?  40 THE COURT:  Oh, I guess it would show some level or measure of  41 curiosity perhaps.  42 MR. RUSH:  Or interest in the language or interest in  43 Wet'suwet'en.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Is that related to any issues in this case, my  45 lord?  46 THE COURT:  Well, I am — I think that it is permissible  47 cross-examination.  It may not bear directly on an 18727  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3    ]  MR. RUSH  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  issue.  I think it is too early to tell.  I wouldn't  stop cross-examination.  Mrs. Peden, did you know that Matthew Sam held the  name of Gyolugyet?  No, I did not.  Did you know that the Carrier or Wet'suwet'en Indian  people have chiefly names?  I have heard them say they have or heard or, not  really heard it, but read that they have.  Well, I think you described Matthew Sam's father as  Chief Matthew, I think I made a note of that?  Yes, that's what I knew him by.  Yes.  Did you know his chiefly name?  No, I did not.  Did you know the man himself?  I saw him a couple of times that I can recall but I  was only a seven-year-old kid so it really didn't sink  in.  That was too early.  What about Amelia, you must have  known Amelia?  Yes, the same time as I did Matthew.  And you must know Amelia today?  Oh, yes, if she is still living but I don't think she  is .  Did you know her name, her chiefly name?  No.  Now, the reserve that you say Matthew Sam lived at,  what's the name of that reserve?  I didn't know it until just recently, Tatla or  something like that.  Tatla.  Tatla?  Or something like that.  When did you learn the name of the reserve?  Just this last year.  What were the circumstances around your learning it?  Read it in the paper.  Okay.  And is it Tatla or Tatlett?  I am not sure.  Okay.  You said that you knew Roy Morris?  That's right.  Do you know if there is any relationship between Roy  Morris and Amelia?  Yes, they are both Morris'.  Right.  Amelia's maiden name is Morris, isn't it?  That's right. 1872?  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q And did she tell you that or did Roy?  2 A She did.  3 Q And Roy Morris, did you ask him what his chiefly name  4 is?  5 A No.  6 Q Does the name of Woos, W-o-o-s, ring a bell with you?  7 A No.  8 Q You told us that the Hollands lived up the Nadina  9 River?  10 A That's right.  11 Q And that was about four miles west of your father's  12 place or the place where you presently reside?  13 A Father's place.  14 Q And that was on a reserve?  15 A That's right.  16 Q What's the name of that reserve?  17 A I don't know.  18 Q And is that reserve located on Park or Pack Lake?  19 A Close to it.  20 Q And I think you will agree with me that Pack and Park  21 are substitute names for the same lake?  22 A I can't because I only know it as Park Lake.  23 Q As Park Lake?  24 A That's right.  25 Q You referred to the Hollands as a group name or a  26 plural for the family.  What was -- was there a father  27 of the Hollands?  28 A Yes.  2 9 Q And was his name Jim?  3 0 A I don't know.  31 Q And Christine Holland, do you know that name?  32 A I have heard it but I don't know her.  33 Q You said that you knew the Hollands?  34 A Yes.  35 Q Was Jim Holland or Christine Holland one of the -- or  36 two of the Hollands that you knew?  37 A I don't know because I didn't know their first names.  38 Q How many Hollands were there?  39 A Really don't -- I really couldn't tell you.  40 Q Well, was there a family living there?  41 A There was a family, that's all I know, but I don't  42 know if all the children were Hollands or not.  43 Q Did you know a person by the name of Sarah Layton?  44 A No.  45 Q Or Sarah Holland?  4 6 A No.  47 Q What about a person by the name of Mary Holland? 18729  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A No.  2 Q You told us that the house that you saw out there at  3 that reserve was a large house?  4 A That's the Hollands' house you're referring to?  5 Q Yes.  6 A Yes.  7 Q In fact, you described it as a huge house?  8 A Well, it seemed like a big house to me.  9 Q Yes.  Was it a house that was capable of, in your  10 visual assessment of it, of holding large gatherings?  11 A I wouldn't say a crowd but it would hold a good sized  12 family.  13 Q Hold a lot of people that wanted to meet there,  14 several families, could they get inside?  15 A It would be pretty crowded.  16 Q Now, I want to show you the picture -- a picture of  17 somebody.  This is Exhibit 309 and it might be a  18 little -- this is a picture of a person that we are  19 instructed is Christine Holland and that's the older  20 person in the picture.  I wonder if you can recognize  21 that person for me as Christine Holland?  22 A I couldn't tell you because I don't think I have ever  23 seen Christine Holland.  24 Q I see.  Well, who of the Hollands did you see?  25 A Whoever was living on that reserve.  26 Q And you just know them as the Hollands and --  27 A That's right.  I don't know any first names.  28 Q I see.  Would you recognize any of them?  29 A No, I wouldn't.  It is years since I have ever laid  30 eyes on them.  31 Q Now, you talked about the Seymours as well?  32 A That's right.  33 Q And again, you used a plural name there.  Who -- what  34 are the names of some of these Seymours?  35 A The only one I knew was Enok Seymour.  That's the only  36 name that sticks.  37 Q Do you know if Enok had any brothers?  38 A I think he did but I didn't know him.  39 Q Would the names of Joe and Arthur Seymour --  40 A They don't ring any bell.  41 Q -- sound a bell to you?  42 A No, they don't.  43 Q And you said that the Seymours lived on the north side  44 of Nadina and they had a big house, too?  45 A That's right.  46 Q And was that a reserve where they lived?  47 A Yes. 18730  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q   What was the name of that reserve?  2 A   I don't know.  3 Q   And how many times were you out there when the  4 Seymours were there?  5 A  Whenever we had to ride to check on our cattle.  I  6 couldn't tell you how many times.  7 Q   Was it ten or so?  8 A   Oh, at least.  9 Q   Well, how many of them lived out there at that place?  10 A   I am not too sure how many lived there, if there was  11 two families, and you'd see them periodically.  There  12 would be a group at times and the Hollands and the  13 Seymours all travelled together so, unless you knew  14 them all by first name, you wouldn't know whether they  15 were all Seymours or all Hollands or vice versa, all  16 mixed up.  17 Q   Mm-hmm.  You weren't out there a sufficient number of  18 times to learn their first names, were you?  19 A   No, I wasn't.  20 Q   And I take it you weren't out there a sufficient  21 number of times to keep track of where they were going  22 or what they were doing?  23 A   No.  24 Q   You mentioned Alex Michell?  25 A   Right.  26 Q   Did you know that Alex lived out there?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 Q   And do you know what period of time that Alex lived  29 out there in the same place where the Seymours lived?  30 A   He didn't live out where the Seymours lived.  He lived  31 down on the -- no, that was -- no, that was Alex.  32 Yeah, he lived down on the north shore of Francois  33 Lake.  34 Q   Did you ever know him to have lived at the same  35 location as the Seymours?  36 A   No.  37 Q   What about Peter Alec?  You said you knew him?  38 A   Yes, but I am not sure where he lived.  39 Q   Did you ever know him to have lived out at the same  40 place as the Seymours'?  41 A   No.  42 Q   And I take it, Mrs. Peden, that basically, as I  43 understand your evidence, you knew the name of Peter  44 Alec but you don't know -- you knew it as a name; you  45 don't know what he did or what occupations he had or  46 anything about him really in terms of his everyday  47 life? 18731  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MR. RUSH:  Q  No, because we didn't see enough of him.  And did you know that there was any relationship  between Peter Alec and Alex Michell?  No.  Were you aware of the fact that they were brothers?  No.  Did you know whether or not Alex Michell held a  chief's name?  No.  Did you ever hear the name of Goohlaht?  No, I did not.  And you said you really didn't know what his  occupation was in answer to a question that was put to  you by my friend here.  The fact of the matter is you  weren't keeping track of what he was doing at all,  were you?  Well, I was quite young at that time when those  natives were living there so -- and I was going to  school also so I had no way of keeping track of them.  It is not something that you would be particularly  interested in at that time?  Well, being that young, no.  They were older than you, were they?  Oh, yes.  Peter Alec?  Yes.  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Were there any children living with the Seymour family  when you recall the Seymour family to have been living  there?  I think there was, yes.  I think there was a whole  family of them but, as I say, I don't quite know the  number of them.  In terms of your memory, and I understand your  evidence to be that sometime in the late '40s, you  thought that the Seymours had moved away from that  place?  Yes.  Up to the time, about that time, do you remember any  children of your own age to have been Seymour children  or, for that matter, Holland children?  Yes.  I'd say there was some, by their size, that I  can remember, you know, when they used to come in our  yard, that they would be my size or so, I would  presume they were my age also.  But you never learned any of their names?  No. 18732  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And they never went to school with you?  2 A   No.  3 Q   Do you know now today, Mrs. Peden, that the Seymours  4 or the Hollands were or are Wet'suwet'en people or  5 descendants of Wet'suwet'en people?  6 A   No, I couldn't say.  I'd say no to that one.  7 Q   Do you know them perhaps by the name Carrier to be  8 descendants or are Carrier people?  9 A   No, not specifically, because I never knew which  10 natives belonged to which tribe or whatever you want  11 to call them.  12 Q   You never learned any of the clans or the house names?  13 A   No, I never did.  14 Q   And I take it you were never to a feast?  15 A   No.  16 Q   Do you know what a feast is?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   What is a feast in your -- do you understand that to  19 mean?  20 A  Well, I presume it is when they all get together and  21 have a potlatch.  22 Q   What do you understand that to be?  23 A   Oh, have a big party.  24 Q   That's what you viewed to be a potlatch, a big party,  25 is it?  26 A  Well, that's what it sounds like.  27 Q   I see.  But you were never to one of these?  28 A   No.  I have never been to any of them.  2 9 Q   And you don't have any knowledge I take it then of the  30 rules or laws governing succession among the  31 Wet'suwet'en or Carrier people?  32 A   No, I don't.  33 Q   I understood your evidence to be that, in relation to  34 the Hollands and the Seymours, that you thought that  35 they had moved away in the late '40s?  36 A   That's right.  37 Q   And can you just tell us why you remember that period  38 and not some later period?  Is there something that  39 you associate that with?  4 0 A  Well, they just didn't come around any more.  You  41 know, they just weren't there because we'd see them  42 quite regular because they had to go to Nadina where  43 the post office was and the store to get their  44 supplies and they used to most of the time come  45 through our ranch to get there, so we'd see them  46 fairly regular at those times when they were occupying  47 the reserves west of the ranch.  And then all of a 18733  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 sudden they weren't there.  2 Q   And it's -- I am sorry.  3 A   Excuse me.  It's vague as I say because I was only a  4 kid at the time anyway.  5 Q   Well, it is just about in the late '40s that you in  6 fact married and moved away yourself part of the  7 summers and moved about for seven or eight years;  8 isn't that right?  9 A   Yes, that's right.  10 Q   So it may not necessarily be something that you would  11 have really a lot of knowledge about, is it?  12 A   It could be, yes, because, as I say, when, you know,  13 they were regular coming through the place and, as I  14 say, when I was there living there regular, we would  15 see them.  16 Q   But then when you weren't --  17 A   Oh, that's right, but then I was also under the  18 impression from my family that they had moved.  19 Q   I see.  20 A   Because they didn't see them any more.  21 Q   You certainly didn't keep track of where the Hollands  22 or where the Seymours went after they apparently, as  23 you say, left at that period?  24 A   No, I did not.  25 Q   And I think you indicated that your father trapped his  26 ranch?  27 A   That's right.  28 Q   Is that right?  29 A   That's right.  30 Q   And I take it that by that you mean he trapped the  31 area of his ranch?  32 A   That's right.  33 Q   And I -- he didn't have a trapline himself, did he?  34 A   No.  35 Q   And you have never had a trapline?  36 A   No, I have not.  37 Q   But I think you said that your brother, Barry Granger,  38 had a trapline?  39 A   That's right.  40 Q   And that encompassed part of the ranch, didn't it?  41 A   That's right.  42 Q   And that trapline, when your brother passed on, fell  43 to be disposed of as part of the estate?  44 A   That's right.  45 Q   And you sold it to a Mr. Lloyd?  46 A   That's right.  47 Q   And that was sold in what time? 18734  B.L. Peden (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   I think in '85, I am not that sure of the date.  Q   And you never used that trapline, did you?  A   I never did.  THE COURT:  You are going to be sometime, aren't you, Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  Oh, yes.  THE COURT:  Is this a convenient time to adjourn?  MR. RUSH:  Yes, as any.  Yes, thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned  until ten o'clock tomorrow.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 p.m. to JULY 14, 1989)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein, transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability.  TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.

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