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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-09-19] British Columbia. Supreme Court Sep 19, 1989

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 19725  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 September 19th, 1989  2 VANCOUVER, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, this 19th day of September, 1989, in the  6 matter of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at  7 bar, my lord.  8 THE COURT:  Goldie.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I have had an extra copy of the map folio  10 prepared --  11 THE COURT:  All right.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  — for your lordship's use.  13 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you, sir, you are still under oath?  14 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  15 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  And would you state your name for  16 the record, please?  17 THE WITNESS:   Albert L. Farley, F-a-r-1-e-y.  18 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, at the adjournment yesterday we were at  2 0 map number 3.  21 THE REGISTRAR: Is that to be marked as an exhibit?  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I'm going to tender that now.  And I tender  23 that, my lord, as Exhibit 1149-3.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  25  26 (EXHIBIT 1149-3: Map, Author Briggs)  27  28 MR. GOLDIE:  Your lordship had asked where Port Nelson was and  29 it is on this map upside down.  Just above the letter  30 "s" in the line "In Port Nelson did Sir Thomas but in  31 winter" and that is the larger of the two middle  32 blocks.  Does your lordship see that?  33 THE COURT:  Not yet.  Where does it say about Sir Thomas?  34 MR. GOLDIE:  The larger or the upper block of printing.  35 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, yes.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Starts with the words "In Port Nelson did..."  37 THE COURT:  I see it, yes.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  And the Port Nelson name is upside down just  39 above the "Sir".  40 THE COURT:  I see.  Yes, I see it.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, in this particular sequence, Doctor, I think  42 you were just about to deal with map number 4.  Would  43 you do that, please?  44 MR. RUSH:  Just before he does, my lord, the witness has  45 apparently notes in front of him.  He has, in my view,  46 I haven't taken objection to this, but I will from now  47 on, strayed from the report that he submitted, and in 19726  Submission by Mr. Rush  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 my opinion is giving evidence which is not disclosed  2 in his report and that may or may not be related to  3 the notes in front of him.  But, in my submission, the  4 written statement of his opinion is contained in the  5 report which has now been marked as an exhibit for  6 identification and that is the understandable body of  7 his opinion.  And I object to his referencing to any  8 notes, and I further object to him not confining his  9 evidence to the opinions expressed in his statement in  10 writing.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, there appear to be two objections, my lord.  12 One is to the witness using notes, and of course if he  13 does use notes my friend's entitled to see them, but I  14 don't know of any prohibition against him using notes  15 to assist him in giving his evidence.  The second  16 objection appears to be that the witness can do  17 nothing but read his report.  I never understood that  18 to be so limited.  The limitation which has been  19 expressed I think by Mr. Justice Bouck was that if a  20 report is filed under the appropriate section of the  21 Evidence Act then the witness is not at liberty to  22 introduce new evidence.  I don't understand the  23 witness however to be introducing new evidence.  24 THE COURT:  Well, I'm at a disadvantage again, as I often am in  25 these matters, because I don't know what's in the  26 notes and I haven't -- I'm not in a position to know  27 every time he says something if that is or isn't  28 specifically or inferentially in the report.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, if the two objections are tied together I'll  30 ask the witness to put his notes to one side.  31 THE COURT:  Well, that might solve the first part of the  32 problem.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  34 THE COURT:  If he needs to refer to his notes, like all  35 police-officers, they're usually allowed to do so if  36 they need to.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  38 THE COURT:  If that isn't necessary and there's a more limited  39 objection, Mr. Rush will have to bring it to my  40 attention because I haven't got the report committed  41 to memory and so I don't know when he's departing from  42 it and when he isn't.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  44 Q   I have directed the court's attention and the witness'  45 attention to the pages in the report that he's  46 referring to, but I'm not asking him to read his  47 report and no one in this case has done so so far, 19727  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 but would you comment, please, on the map number 4  2 which is --  3 A   This is the Jefferys' map dated 1768.  And this map is  4 included in the folio of maps in the context of the  5 search for a north-west passage.  6 THE COURT:  In 1768 you say.  7 THE WITNESS:  1768.  8 THE COURT:  It says that somewhere here does it?  9 THE WITNESS:   If one refers, my lord, to page 6 of the appendix  10 A, the reference to this map is made about the middle  11 of the first paragraph on that page, reference to:  12  13 "Subsequent disappointment was at least partly  14 offset by the cartographic efforts of Thomas  15 Jefferys.  He, like Dobbs, placed great faith  16 in the De Fonte tale and in 1768 published The  17 Great Probability of a Northwest Passage."  18  19 And in that document The Great Probability of a  20 Northwest Passage was included the map that is  21 replicated in this folio.  22 THE COURT:  What page do I find that, please?  23 THE WITNESS:   Page 6 of Appendix A, my lord.  24 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  Thank you.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   All right.  Would you like to comment on that map,  27 please?  28 A  Again, this map found some populous port in England  29 because it portrayed what British merchants of the  30 time hoped to see and that is a passage, an  31 interoceanic passage, leading from the vicinity of  32 Hudson Bay to the south sea.  The basis for the  33 representation, as far as the line work and the  34 representation of the interoceanic passage and its  35 various lakes and connections, that is based on  36 entirely spurious information and an fictitious  37 account that alleged an Admiral Bartholomew De Fonte  38 had led an expedition, a whole expedition of vessels,  39 northward along the west coast of America and into an  40 entrance through which the vessels passed, and they  41 then travelled through the continent and ultimately  42 reached the Atlantic Coast in the vicinity of Hudson  43 Bay.  44 Q   Now, that water passage starts on the west coast of  45 North America, as depicted in this map, and proceeds  46 in a north-easterly direction and has on it "entrance  47 of something straits"? 1972?  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  "Entrance of Juan de Fuca Straits" passed by  2 Juan de Fuca, and the waterway can be traced.  It's a  3 little difficult to see with the -- in the black and  4 white, but the waterway can be traced as leading to  5 the north-west part of Hudson Bay.  I can't read the  6 lettering on my copy.  7 Q   And then there's a very large extension of the  8 continent to the west and something named Bering  9 Strait.  Is that what you identified yesterday as  10 Anian Strait?  11 A  Well, in a sense, yes, but by this time, by the date  12 of this map, 1768, Bering had already reached  13 Kamtschatka and had sailed, with his first Lieutenant  14 Chirikov, in the second vessel sailed towards the  15 coast of America and had sighted Mount St. Elias,  16 which is indeed marked on the map quite prominently in  17 latitude -- sorry, in the latitude 60.  Yes, it's very  18 clear.  The numeral 60 is on the central meridian of  19 the map, and that the parallel at 60 passes by Mount  20 St. Elias, so that this reflects in part the  21 discoveries made by the Bering expedition.  22 THE COURT:  I haven't found Mount St. Elias.  Where do you say  23 it is?  24 THE WITNESS:   If, my lord, we look at the west coast, the  25 representation of the west coast of America.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  27 THE WITNESS:   And we pass the Archipellago of St. Lazarus,  28 where the islands are in that entrance to the waterway  29 and proceed -- cast our eye northward from that.  30 THE COURT:  Just a moment.  I'm not sure I'm going to find it  31 that way.  Show me where it is.  32 THE WITNESS:   Excuse me, my lord.  So that's Mount St. Elias  33 and this is the 60th parallel.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  Is Mount St. Elias marked here?  35 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  36 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, I see it.  Yes.  And —  37 THE WITNESS:   And so what we see in this map are -- it's a  38 curious -- it's a remarkable map, one of the most  39 remarkable maps ever produced, remarkable in the sense  40 that it incorporates elements of the factual results,  41 firsthand observations, stemming from the Bering  42 explorations and, on the other hand, it incorporates  43 completely spurious information in the representation  44 of these passages or this interoceanic passage and the  45 attendant features shown on the map.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  What is your opinion with respect to the depiction  47 of the interior of North America as shown on this map? 19729  Submission by Mr. Rush  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. RUSH:  Well, doesn't the map -- isn't that a question, my  2 lord, that the map speaks exactly for itself on that  3 issue?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Well —  5 MR. RUSH:  Doesn't the map depict what it depicts?  6 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, but —  7 MR. GOLDIE:  I can put the question in a much more specific way,  8 my lord.  9 THE COURT: All right.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  Yesterday we discussed, the witness discussed, the  11 Sierra Nevada, Quivira, and there are some other --  12 some other landmarks, if I may put it that way, with  13 respect to the interior of North America, and I want  14 to ask the witness to comment on where those were  15 placed and what the state of knowledge is represented  16 by them.  17 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, the state of knowledge is represented  18 by what it shows on the map.  That is the state of  19 knowledge.  Now, if the witness' attention is directed  20 to a point on the map, as he was with regard to Mount  21 St. Elias, and apparently his information, I would  22 expect based on his understanding of the Bering  23 discoveries, supports I think an explanation with  24 regard to Mount St. Elias.  But so far as opinions  25 regarding other aspects of the land mass unrelated to  26 a particular topographical or geographic point or  27 unrelated to what the witness can direct our attention  28 to as foundation facts, then in my submission it's --  29 the map again speaks for what it says and represents  30 the state of knowledge on its face.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  The witness has just finished telling us that there  32 was no knowledge that supports the factual depiction  33 of a waterway running from the Pacific to the  34 north-west.  Now, that's the whole point of having  35 somebody with some years of knowledge and training  36 talk about these things is to distinguish between  37 actual knowledge and knowledge which is based upon  38 fiction.  I mean, that's one of the things, and indeed  39 Mr. Morrison commented to the same effect.  It would  40 be truncating the evidence of an expert to say "Oh,  41 well, you can't talk about that, but you can talk  42 about this."  43 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord if I can -- if I may just explain this  44 point.  I think there are two features that are being  45 intermixed here.  One is the state of knowledge of the  46 cartographer as it's depicted on the document, and I  47 say the document speaks for itself; and secondly, what 19730  Submission by Mr. Rush  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 is the state of knowledge of the time; and thirdly,  2 what is the state of knowledge from the vantage point  3 of today as we look back on that time.  And in my  4 submission, if this document represents the state of  5 mind of Mr. Jefferys, and the witness may well say  6 that, as he has with regard to this strait running  7 through to the Hudson's Bay, that there was other  8 knowledge which called into question the depiction,  9 that it no less detracts, in my submission, from the  10 state of knowledge of Mr. Jefferys.  11 Now, the explanation in my submission goes to  12 those -- to that other knowledge for which there must  13 be, in my view, some factual underpinnings, and I  14 think, my lord, that if the witness' attention is  15 drawn to the state of knowledge based on other facts  16 about which he came to understand, then I think that  17 that is the proper course of the question, not the  18 question as to what does the map show.  The map shows  19 what it shows.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  I didn't ask the question what does the map show,  21 my lord.  The witness has used the example of Mount  22 St. Elias again.  He has said why that is there.  He's  23 identified the source of knowledge.  He has identified  24 the supposed source of knowledge for the north-west  25 passage.  Now I'm going to ask him if the state of  26 knowledge as known at the time, what is it in relation  27 to other parts of the map, and if my friend wants me  28 to go through each of the places that we have already  29 discussed I'll do so, but I was asking a compendious  30 question.  31 MR. RUSH:  I think on the basis of what my friend is doing I may  32 not object to it in terms of item by item, but I  33 don't -- these maps, my lord, are the result of many  34 different sources of information and I say that it may  35 not be able to be dealt with compendiously as my  36 friend would hope.  In my view there may be very  37 different sources of information underpinning the  38 witness' understanding of the facts as they are  39 portrayed on this map.  40 THE COURT:  Well, I'm having serious difficulty fitting this  41 into a category that I can rule on with any confidence  42 or consistency.  I'm filled with wonderment and  43 puzzlement about some of these things.  It certainly  44 is something that I'd like to have explained to me  45 some way.  For example, I see on here a reference to  46 Lake Blanco.  I'd like to know if there's anything  47 that the witness knows that could explain what that 19731  Submission by Mr. Rush  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 is.  I see on what I suppose is the south shore of  2 Hudson Bay it says "New South Wales".  I must say that  3 raises a question in my mind I'd like to know  4 something about.  I see here the Archipellago of St.  5 Lazarus, I think it's Lazarus.  I sure would like to  6 know what that's all about, if it can be related to  7 anything that is recognizable.  And I see here  8 something that says just east of the Archipellago of  9 St. Lazarus, it says -- it looks like "North Fall"  10 something "of the South Sea", and of course I'm  11 completely unable to figure out what this heavy black  12 line is around the words "indicated by the Japanese".  13 Now, all of these things it seems to me are  14 something that I would like to have some information  15 about if there is any information, and I'm not sure  16 how I relate that curiosity on my part to the laws of  17 evidence and the objection that's been made.  As was  18 made famous in the some recent hearings, I don't think  19 I'm supposed to sit here like a potted palm and have  20 all these questions in my mind and not be able to find  21 out what some of them mean, but I don't know exactly  22 how to -- how to rule on your objection, Mr. Rush.  23 MR. RUSH:  Well, it perhaps, and no doubt, is my lack of  24 articulation about what it is I'm really objecting to,  25 and perhaps I could just clarify, my lord, with regard  26 to Mount St. Elias.  I don't have an objection to the  27 witness making reference to a name or what appears to  28 be a topographical point on the map because in his  29 knowledge, as in mine, we know that that is as a  30 result of the Bering voyages and the sightings of the  31 Bering voyages, but my objection is really this, that  32 I don't think the witness can be directed  33 compendiously to answer questions with regard to a  34 broad sweep of the land mass as it's depicted of the  35 North American land base as shown here because it is  36 dependent upon various sources of knowledge that came  37 to the mapmaker.  So that's my first point.  38 My second point, my lord, is with regard to  39 indications such as the one that you have referred  40 counsel to, that is, the words "indicated by the  41 Japanese".  In my submission the witness may be able  42 to assist the court upon -- providing there are two  43 fundamental criteria met.  One is does the witness  44 know what was available to Mr. Jefferys at the time  45 when he indicated that and, secondly, independently of  46 Mr. Jefferys, does the witness know what was the --  47 what, from some other primary source, the knowledge 19732  Submission by Mr. Rush  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 was of the contemporaries of Mr. Jefferys.  2 Now, it seems to me, my lord, that there has to be  3 some basis for the witness' explanation regarding  4 names or nomenclature used in respect of the map, and  5 I will reserve objections with regard to those aspects  6 of where I think the witness is straying into opinions  7 which I think are impermissible, but at the same time  8 I think that he can give evidence providing he gives a  9 foundation for his knowledge about that evidence.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, then am I summarizing correctly  11 when I say that your objection then is to the breadth  12 of Mr. Goldie's question and that it would advance  13 matters perhaps if he were to direct the attention of  14 the witness to specific matters so that it can be --  15 so that it becomes more manageable?  16 MR. RUSH:  Yes, my lord, and secondly, to underlying factual  17 understandings.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19 MR. RUSH:  Because, as I say, if my friend wishes to go into an  20 explanation which calls upon the intelligence of the  21 witness with regard to various names and et cetera on  22 the map, then that obviously is an underlying fact,  23 and that underlying fact should be brought to your  24 lordship's attention.  25 THE COURT: All right.  All right.  Mr. Goldie, are you able to  26 assist us by proceeding in that way?  27 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'll try, but I've always understood that a  28 compendious question can be put to an expert and the  29 testing of that is the responsibility of  30 cross-examination, and indeed the witness expresses  31 the opinion in his report, and I'll start with that.  32 THE COURT:   All right.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Would you tell us what -- would you comment please  34 on the coast lines of Davis Strait, Hudson Bay, and  35 James Bay, as depicted on the map, in light of your  36 knowledge of the knowledge available at the time of  37 those geographic features?  38 THE COURT:  That was again Davis Strait -- what were the other  39 ones?  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Davis Strait, Hudson Bay and James Bay.  41 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  All right.  42 THE WITNESS:   These names stem from early British exploration  43 into Hudson Bay, and Davis is named for -- Davis'  44 name, rather, is applied to the strait, and James did  45 explore the coast or enter the -- entering Hudson Bay  46 he explored the coast to the south and, if memory  47 serves me correctly, discovered the Belcher Islands. 19733  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 The other nomenclature that --  2 MR. GOLDIE:  3 Q   Well, perhaps you -- these explorations were -- they  4 were obviously I take it prior to this map being  5 created in 1768, if that was the time it was created?  6 A   That's correct.  Yes.  7 Q   Now, can you tell us anything about the availability  8 of the knowledge gained from those explorations?  9 A   Oh, yes, that was generally available to British  10 cartographers and I suspect to cartographers in other  11 countries too, other world areas too, but particularly  12 to the British, and the -- much of that exploration,  13 as I understand it, was funded by the merchants  14 themselves launching expeditions, so that that kind of  15 information did get relatively wide circulation.  So,  16 in essence, looking at the map and seeing the  17 portrayal, one could say well, certainly Hudson Bay  18 and James Bay are reasonably well defined for this  19 time in North American history, but it is the area  20 immediately to the west of Hudson Bay where one finds  21 a great deal of confusion apparent in the  22 cartographer's mind, and that again stems from his  23 acceptance, and he was not alone in this, but  24 particularly obviously in this case he was the  25 cartographer, he accepted the De Fonte narrative which  26 appeared, if memory serves me correctly, in a rather  27 obscure publication titled "Miscellany for the  2 8 Curious".  And I'm going back in my mind sometime to  29 retrieve that, but that's more or less anyhow the  30 title of this rather obscure memoir in which the De  31 Fonte narrative is given.  And Wagner, H.R. Wagner,  32 speaks of that and refers to it in his two volume work  33 on the cartography of the north-west coast of America.  34 Q   Now, you said to the west.  If we go to the west there  35 is that black line which his lordship referred to and  36 in it are the words "indicated by the Japanese".  Can  37 you make any comment on that, please?  38 A   The only comment I can make in that connection is that  39 Jefferys may well have had indirect knowledge of  40 Japanese, not exploration to America for we have no  41 clear evidence of that, but information that he may  42 have interpreted as sighting of north-west America.  43 If we go back to a substantial study done by Sir  44 Joseph Needham and two Asian scholars on "Science and  45 Civilization in China", one can rather quickly  46 discount the possibility of any record, any surviving  47 record anyway, of Japanese or Chinese visits to 19734  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 America.  2 MR. RUSH:  Well, that is a source I think that it would be  3 useful to have in front of your lordship.  There, in  4 my submission, the evidence is speculating what was in  5 the mind of Mr. Jefferys, and asks you to discount  6 that in the light of what was then done by a secondary  7 author on another subject that is not before your  8 lordship, and I say if that's a fact that he asks you  9 to rely on, it should be before you.  10 THE COURT:  What he says is he says he's not aware of any  11 recorded evidence of Chinese or Japanese exploration  12 of America.  Does it go any further than that?  13 MR. GOLDIE:  14 Q   Can you answer his lordship's question?  15 A   Excuse me, my lord, would you mind rephrasing your  16 question?  17 THE COURT:  That there is to your knowledge no recorded evidence  18 of any Chinese or Japanese exploration of the west  19 coast of North America?  20 THE WITNESS:   That's correct, sir.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm going —  22 THE COURT:  But there is some kind of a history, I gather, a  23 general history of civilization did you call it?  24 THE WITNESS:   "Science and Civilization in China".  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26 THE WITNESS:   My lord, if I may, I'd refer to the selected  27 bibliography appended to my appendix A and I think  28 you'll find there Needham, Ling, and Gwei-Djen  29 "Science and Civilization in China, Volume 4,  30 Cambridge University, press 1971".  31 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Incidentally, before I forget, what was  32 the date of Bering's associates sighting of Mount St.  33 Elias?  34 THE WITNESS:   1741 I think.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  37 Q   Now, coming down the coast -- well, can you tell us  38 who the Kamtschadalos, if I pronounce it correctly,  39 but it's the south-east toe of North America with the  40 words indicated?  41 A   That nomenclature would have come again from the  42 Bering expedition.  Bering did spend some time in  43 Kamtschatka and indeed the vessels there that were  44 used to cross the North Pacific were built in  45 Kamtschatka so that he was in communication with the  46 resident people there and apparently they knew of a  47 land to the westward, but I can't recall anything in 19735  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 my reading of the Bering voyages that indicates  2 specific location, simply that they knew of a land to  3 the west.  4 Q   And then we go down the coast and the words  5 "Archipellago of St. Lazarus"?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Can you say anything about that?  8 A   That is entirely from -- taken from the De Fonte  9 narrative.  The expedition is alleged to have entered  10 this large embayment and it was dotted with many  11 islands.  12 Q   And what about Lake Blanco?  13 A   I think, sir, that should be read as Lake Velasco  14 V-e-1-a-s-c-o, and Velasco was in the spurious account  15 one of the ship's captains.  There were several  16 vessels involved in this expedition of spurious  17 account.  18 Q   Right.  Now, I want to move over to the right-hand  19 side of the map and just below Hudson's Bay is the  20 name "New South Wales".  Can you tell us anything  21 about the origin of that?  22 A   I can't other than to say it clearly is associated  23 with the early English exploration into Hudson Bay,  24 but it's certainly not on the basis of landward  25 contact, rather seaward contact via Hudson Bay.  26 Q   Right.  Now, you mentioned Belcher Islands.  Are they  27 identified on this map?  28 A   They're not identified, sir, on the map, but I -- my  29 recollection is that James did see those islands, and  30 perhaps the rather fuzzy but dark representation on  31 the east side of the bay is islands there, what we  32 could take to be islands.  I think probably that's  33 intended to represent the Belcher Islands.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  Right.  35 MR. RUSH:  I object to that, my lord.  I think that's exactly  36 the kind of speculation which this witness is not  37 entitled to indulge in.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my lord, he has identified Davis and what  39 Davis did, and I'm asking him if that's depicted on  4 0 the map.  41 THE COURT:  Well, is that where the Belcher Islands are?  42 THE WITNESS:   Yes, my lord.  43 THE COURT:  On the — along the east shore of Hudson's Bay?  44 THE WITNESS:   Yes, my lord.  45 THE COURT:  And there is historical record of James discovering  46 the Belcher Islands?  47 THE WITNESS:   Sir, my lord, I believe it was James who made 19736  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 that discovery.  I can't be absolute in my  2 recollection.  3 THE COURT:  Well, I think that I — I think that those are facts  4 that the witness is entitled to give.  I think Mr.  5 Rush is right when he says it's speculation as to  6 whether this is intended to represent that discovery  7 or those discoveries.  8 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  You see, my lord, my objection -- the witness  9 can give the evidence, as your lordship has indicated,  10 on the facts.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  12 MR. RUSH:  But for the witness then to go ahead and say:  Well,  13 from what I know from that what is shown here  14 represents that, and I think that's evidenced by what  15 he says about New South Wales.  16 THE COURT:  Yes, I think that that's so, except that the  17 question could have been put another way.  Where on  18 this map would you put the Belcher Islands, and he  19 could then say well, I would put them about where  20 these dark spots are.  I would then be drawing the  21 inference rather than the witness is I suppose what it  22 comes to, but I think that we -- I agree that the  23 witness cannot say that these were intended by the  24 cartographer to be the Belcher Islands.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   And when you said, Dr. Farley, that the name New South  27 Wales would have been derived from seaward exploration  28 rather than landward exploration, that's a fact as  2 9 known to you at the time?  30 A   Yes.  At this time any such nomenclature would have  31 come originally from, in my judgment, would have come  32 from the British navigators and sailors who would come  33 to that area.  34 MR. GOLDIE:   Now —  35 MR. RUSH:  Well, I do object to that, my lord.  I mean, if he is  36 going to say that then I think your lordship ought to  37 be -- ought to know on what judgment he makes that,  38 and as I understood his previous evidence he said that  39 he did not -- he says I can't tell you anything about  40 that, those were his words, and anything that flows  41 from that then becomes speculation as to what was in  42 the mind of Mr. Jefferys.  Now, if he can tell us what  43 was in the mind of Mr. Jefferys, which I don't take  44 his evidence to be that --  45 THE COURT:  Well, I suppose what it comes to is that, Dr.  46 Farley, is that you simply don't know of any overland  47 exploration as of this date that would lead anyone to 19737  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 that area except by sea?  2 THE WITNESS:   My lord, yes, I would certainly agree with that.  3 I know of no other possible source of that name, New  4 South Wales, being applied to that area, than by the  5 early explorers into Hudson Bay or the explorers up to  6 this date.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  9 Q   All right.  Well, now we go back to something that was  10 referred to yesterday, Quivira.  Do you see that in  11 the central part of North America about -- just below  12 the 45th parallel?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And you identified what that was --  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   -- yesterday.  Does this indicate to you any  17 additional knowledge on the part of the cartographer?  18 A   Just the opposite, sir.  That name Quivira, which  19 stems originally from the Coronado explorations  20 expeditions in south-west -- what is now the American  21 south-west, that name came to be applied rather like  22 the land of Prester John(ph) that appeared on European  23 maps.  It got moved around and applied in areas of  24 ignorance simply to fill the gaps you might say, the  25 otherwise vacant spaces on the map.  2 6 Q   All right.  Now, moving further to the right and  27 looking at the right-hand margin of the map below New  28 South Wales and running to the bottom of the map,  29 would you simply start at the bottom and identify  30 those place-names that you are -- of which you have  31 knowledge and indicate to his lordship the state --  32 the knowledge that would explain the appearance of  33 these on this map?  34 A   In these respects the names such as Peducas and  35 Panis --  36 Q   Yes.  37 A   -- and Sioux.  These are names that were applied to  38 the native Indian people who occupied those areas.  39 They were applied not with great locational precision,  40 but they were applied on early maps and Jefferys is  41 simply taking the information from whatever source and  42 applying it here.  We can see some improvement --  43 well, some representation of the -- what we might call  44 the great lakes of the prairies, that is, Lake  45 Winnipeg, Lake Winnipegosis, and Lake Manitoba, and  46 you see some suggestion of that, and I take it to be  47 from or at least the main source of information for 1973?  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 that to have been the Verendrye travels.  And by this  2 date the French explorers travellers had been in the  3 area beyond the Great Lakes.  In fact, Verendrye, if  4 memory serves me correctly, the Verendrye family  5 travelled in during the period 1741 to '43, and indeed  6 had wintered with the Indians at the Mandan village.  7 MR. GOLDIE:   We'll come to those a little later.  May I tender  8 this as Exhibit 1149-4?  9  10 (EXHIBIT 1149-4: Map - Author Jefferys)  11  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  Just before you leave though, do you see some  13 depiction of what might be Lake Winnipeg and Manitoba  14 Lake on this map?  15 THE WITNESS:  My lord, if — it's a little difficult to get  16 co-ordinates for this.  17 THE COURT:  I see the word "M-a-n-f-a-n-s" there, is that what  18 you mean?  19 THE WITNESS:   To the west of that, my lord, there is a label on  20 the map in the general south-east portion of the map,  21 a large lettering.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 THE WITNESS:   The name North America.  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 THE WITNESS:   And where the "E" in America is, just in that  26 vicinity, there are two or three lakes shown there.  27 THE COURT:  I see.  28 THE WITNESS:   And those would be a representation of Lake  29 Winnipeg and Lake Winnipegosis and Manitoba.  30 THE COURT:  Yes, or could be I suppose is what you're saying?  31 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  Could be, yes, my lord.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  33 Q   All right.  Oh, and perhaps you can tell me this,  34 Doctor, taking that -- those three lakes that you have  35 just identified for his lordship, and taking the one  36 at the top, I can't make out its name, if one goes  37 west from there one comes to something which is marked  38 "Highlands".  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And then immediately to the west of that, of course,  41 is the north-west passage?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Is it possible to estimate the miles that the -- or  44 the distance that the cartographer depicts here?  45 A   From —  46 Q   Between that uppermost lake and the north-west  47 passage? 19739  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes, it's possible.  We have latitude 50, so -- and we  2 have -- just a moment.  I have to get the longitude  3 values, 10 degrees -- well, I have to do a little  4 mental computation here.  The co-sign value --  5 Q   Perhaps I shouldn't have asked that question.  Maybe  6 you could do that during the break.  7 A   I'd be happy to do that, sir.  8 Q   Or we could come back to that.  9 All right.  Well, now, in your report at page 7  10 you talk about the French mapping in Canada, and would  11 you be good enough to discuss that, and the section is  12 from pages 7 to 9, with reference to the relevant  13 maps?  14 A   Yes.  What I have said in the appendix A is that in  15 the early mapping of French Canada Champlain was  16 outstanding -- was outstanding as a geographer and a  17 cartographer in a number of respects.  He was well  18 versed in the available mapping technology of the  19 time.  He was a careful observer, and he had a  20 remarkable aptitude for synthesizing information about  21 the landscape, and such information included reports  22 given to him by the Indian people, by the native  23 people.  What we see in this map is the first  24 depiction at a general scale, the first depiction of  25 eastern Canada and the Great Lakes.  Now, when I say  26 this is the first, I take for my authority here a  27 number of scholars who have studied Champlain's work.  28 I think particularly of Louis -- Dr. Gentilcore, who  29 with a co-author published a volume on early mapping  30 of Ontario, and he deals specifically with this map,  31 but there are many scholars who have studied  32 Champlain's work and particularly his mapping.  33 Q   The reference here is to map 5 is it?  34 A   To map 5, yes.  35 Q   And the date of that is 1632?  36 A   Yes, this is 1632.  Yes.  37 Q   You mentioned that he used -- he had fine mapmaking  38 skill and used modern techniques.  Could you just  39 enlarge upon the difficulties or the opportunities  40 that mapmakers had at that time with respect to the  41 techniques they used, and when I say opportunities, I  42 mean opportunities to take information, interpret it,  43 and depict it on a map?  44 A   Yes, they -- the techniques by our latter day  45 standards were of course primitive, nonetheless they  46 represented a considerable advance over what had been  47 available in the very early stages of the discoveries 19740  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 and exploration of America.  It wasn't however so much  2 the instruments alone, it was the difficulty of  3 applying them in other than areas that were clear,  4 that is, cleared trees, essentially open lands.  In  5 the woods it would have been exceedingly difficult to  6 have established position with accuracy even  7 latitudinal position, but especially longitudinal  8 position, and coupled with that, the techniques for  9 determining the longitude were as yet primitive, and  10 that problem I think I mentioned earlier in  11 yesterday's testimony, the problem of establishing the  12 longitude with accuracy plagued cartographers and  13 explorers for years and years, for well, literally  14 hundreds of years.  15 Q   All right.  Do you have any observations to make on  16 the information -- any further observations to make on  17 the information depicted on this map?  18 A   I think not, other than to say well, clearly one can  19 say that the representation of the Great Lakes was  20 primitive indeed, yet I think anyone familiar with the  21 general geography of Canada would have no difficulty  22 in associating the representation of lakes on this map  23 with the Great Lakes of Canada as we know them today.  24 The representation to the north, Hudson Bay and James  25 Bay, that would have come from the English sources,  26 English exploration into Hudson Bay, because the  27 French had not extended their operations that far.  28 MR. RUSH:  Is the witness going to direct us to a source for  29 that knowledge?  30 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I thought he did.  He said that he knew of no  31 French explorations in that area.  Do you require a  32 source for negative knowledge?  33 MR. RUSH:  I mean, the difficulty with this, my lord, is that  34 the witness has indicated quite clearly that Champlain  35 relied on information that came from -- that was oral  36 information that came from Indian people.  So the  37 negative suggestion is that there's only one other  38 alternative and it must have been from the English  39 explorers.  And, in my submission, it's not open to  40 the witness to say -- to give his opinion on the --  41 where that information must have come from.  It's open  42 in argument to suggest how the information may have  43 come to Champlain but, in my submission, unless the  44 witness says that he has reviewed a certain secondary  45 source with regard to this.  And he indicates further  46 in his written summation that he, Champlain,  47 appreciated the value of native accounts of the 19741  A.L. Farley (for Province)  Submission by Mr. Rush  Ruling by the Court  1 hinterland, and in my submission it's simply not open  2 to the witness to lead you to the conclusion that  3 there wasn't any other source for the information.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  5 Q   Well, I -- as my friend puts it, the hinterland, and I  6 thought the witness was talking about the Hudson's  7 Bay.  Were you talking about the coast line of the  8 Hudson's Bay?  9 A   Yes, the area beyond what was becoming settled in  10 French Canada, so everything beyond that is the  11 hinterland, but in this case particularly Hudson Bay  12 because it's so prominantly displayed on the map.  13 THE COURT:  Well, the problem that I'm having is this:  That I  14 think that Mr. Rush makes the point that the witness  15 has said that this information about James Bay or  16 Hudson's Bay must have come from the English explorers  17 who I gather pre-dated 1632, and Mr. Rush suggests  18 that that may not be so, it may have been the other  19 source which was mentioned which was reports from  20 Indians.  And I think what I -- in the normal course  21 of events that would be a matter for  22 cross-examination:  Doctor, you said in evidence  23 such-and-such, but isn't it equally plausible that the  24 source was something else.  So I take it that your  25 point in raising it at this time, Mr. Rush, is to  26 inquire for the purpose of preparing for  27 cross-examination whether there is any historical  28 references or learning or writings on the subject that  29 would assist you to prepare for your cross-examination  30 of the witness?  31 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  It's twofold, my lord.  It's that and it again  32 repeats the point I have made earlier and that is that  33 the witness is taking a state of mind statement by  34 Champlain in 1632 and he is applying his assumptions  35 about what was in Champlain's mind, and that is an  36 interpretive function not open to the witness, open to  37 your lordship.  38 THE COURT:  Well, I have to make the final decision on whether I  39 think that's an inference that's justified, but I  4 0 can't do that in a complete vacuum.  I think that  41 counsel are entitled to ask if there are authorities  42 that he can reconsider while he's preparing for  43 cross-examination.  I think the question of which  44 inference should be drawn is my problem.  As I say, I  45 have to have something to go on or I'll be guessing  46 and we don't want that, and that could sometimes be  47 done in cross-examination, but I think that it's a 19742  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 matter that counsel are entitled to ask about as the  2 matter progresses for the reasons that I've mentioned.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  4 Q   Well, Dr. Farley, the question that I think, if I  5 understand my friend's concern, is what authority, if  6 any, exists for the statement that you made that the  7 outline of Hudson's Bay, that is to say, as depicted  8 on this map, could have come only from the English  9 explorers?  Can you direct him to any authority that  10 would assist him in that regard?  11 A   I think that if he were to look at the recently,  12 comparatively recently, published Historical Atlas of  13 Canada, Volume 1, he may find some answer to that.  I  14 can only say, sir, that there has been a good deal  15 written and published about this whole matter of early  16 exploration into Canada, but I think perhaps the  17 historical atlas would be a good source in the sense  18 that again it gives summary information.  19 MR. GOLDIE:   Thank you.  I tender that as Exhibit 1149-5, my  20 lord.  21 THE REGISTRAR:   1149-5.  22  23 (EXHIBIT 1149-5: Map, Author Champlain)  24  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   Now, with respect to the French, progress of French  27 mapping, Dr. Farley, you make reference on page 8 of  28 your report to the effect of Champlain's work which  2 9 went beyond mapmaking.  Can you enlarge upon or  30 summarize what is found on that page of your report?  31 A   Yes.  By 1600 the fur trade in Canada had become  32 established.  There was a demand, a growing demand, in  33 Europe for furs, the beaver particularly at this  34 stage, and in consequence of that there was the  35 commercial organization of a trade.  And in the  36 pursuit of the trade new information was generated.  37 When I say "new information", I'm referring to --  38 essentially to landscape information was generated and  39 this information was transmitted to the drafting rooms  40 of Paris so that maps embracing the new information  41 could be prepared.  And we see in this map, by  42 comparison to the preceding map by Champlain, this one  43 by Nicolas Sanson and dated 1656, this map suggests  44 the cartographic outcome of that process or the  45 beginnings of that process, in that it gives a better  46 representation of the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence system,  47 and suggests that at least to the north and west of 19743  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 the Great Lakes more information was coming to hand  2 that could be used to give a better representation of  3 the drainage from the Laurentian upland towards the  4 St. Lawrence system.  So it really is again useful in  5 comparison with the preceding map, useful in that it  6 suggests the progression that had been made in  7 surveying or acquisition of landscape information and  8 mapping in that 25-year period between the publication  9 of the preceding map and this one.  10 Q   Can you comment on Sanson's standing in the  11 cartographic field?  12 A   Yes, Nicolas Sanson was the founder of the French --  13 what has been referred to as the French school of  14 cartography.  France by this time had started its  15 ascendency in cartography, its ascendency to what  16 later became I'd say a pinnacle in cartographic work.  17 Sanson founded that school and he later, considerably  18 later, was I believe a charter member of the French  19 Academy of Sciences.  That academy was not founded  20 until after that map was published, if memory serves  21 me correctly, and the dates.  I don't have my notes  22 before me so I can't be sure here of my dates.  23 Q   You have compared the advance that has been made in  24 the approximately 25 years between Champlain's map and  25 Sanson's map.  Can you indicate to his lordship the  26 limits of the advance in knowledge as indicated by  27 this, geographically speaking?  28 A   Yes, I think it's fairly evident from this map that  29 Lake Huron and Lake Michigan and Lake Superior were  30 only vaguely known, that is, to European  31 cartographers, that there were large areas of the  32 hinterland between the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence  33 lowland and Hudson Bay both, and the Labrador coast,  34 vast areas there and vast areas to the west that were  35 simply unknown.  The cartographer would not have left  36 the map areas blank had he had available to him what  37 he considered to be useful information about it.  38 MR. RUSH:  I object to that, my lord.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  Well —  40 MR. RUSH:  The witness is simply speculating what was in the  41 mind of Mr. Sanson.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  He's not.  It's not speculation, my lord, he's  43 speaking from the knowledge and study of this  44 particular map and it's his opinion that had the  45 information been available, and it's a question of  46 fact, it would have been depicted by a person of the  47 standing of this particular cartographer. 19744  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Submission by Mr. Rush  Ruling by the Court  Submission by Mr. Goldie  MR. RUSH:  Well, firstly that is not evident in -- if that is an  opinion it's a new opinion and it's not evident in the  written material.  Secondly, it's not open to the  witness to say that, in my submission, on the basis of  what he has testified to up to this point.  What is  shown here is the best expression of Sanson's mind.  THE COURT:  Well, I think, Mr. Rush, that it is open for an  expert cartographer to say that as a matter of  practise a cartographer will not leave large blank  areas on a map if any information is available, any  information is available upon which he relies.  Now,  that may not be a valid cartographic principle, but  that apparently is the view of the witness.  Now I  think that that is something that he can be challenged  on in cross-examination, but I think that it's opinion  that a witness is entitled to give if it's not  included in the summary of his report.  It's a matter  that is not so radical a departure from the report  that I would exclude it on that ground.  The notice  that's to be given is not one that requires a verbatim  account of every word the witness is going to say.  The map has been produced and a description of it.  I  think it's close enough.  I wouldn't rule it out on  the grounds that have been mentioned.  MR. GOLDIE:  I should note, my lord, that the witness concludes  his discussion of this map in his report with these  words:  "In terms of a general..."  This is on page 9.  "In terms of a general depiction of rivers and  of other major landscape features, answers to  those questions and correction of gross  misconceptions about the Great Lakes-St.  Lawrence area were available by the end of the  century.  It must be remembered, however, that  detailed topographic information was limited to  settled areas and that for great stretches very  little was known."  I can't see any distinction between what he said  and that.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  I tender that, my lord, as Exhibit 1149-6.  THE REGISTRAR: 1149-6. 19745  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (EXHIBIT 1149-6: Map, Author Sanson)  2  3 MR. GOLDIE:  4 Q   Now, Dr. Farley, would you continue please with your  5 discussion of the French mapping?  6 A   Yes.  In my appendix A I have tried to set the -- some  7 distinctions between cartography in France and in  8 England up to the middle of the 18th century.  I tried  9 to make some statements about mapping and the  10 institutions that were available to assist  11 cartographers or not to assist them, as the case may  12 be, in England and in France simply as background to  13 interpreting the maps of America because it seems to  14 me without that kind of background or some suggestion  15 at least of that background, it becomes exceedingly  16 difficult to appreciate how or the conditions under  17 which maps were produced.  So the pages beginning on  18 page 9 and extending through to page 12 -- sorry, page  19 11, spoke of -- I've written about the scene as far as  20 French cartography is concerned in the 18th century  21 and then on pages -- the lower part of page 11 through  22 to page -- to and including most of page 12, I've  23 tried to set the scene as far as English mapping or  24 British mapping is concerned.  25 Q   All right.  Well, before dealing with that in detail,  26 would you identify the map number 7 and place it in  27 its terms?  Is this the map that is referred to on  28 page 9 of your report in the middle paragraph of the  29 page?  30 A   Yes.  This is the map.  Map 7 is by Venetian friar  31 Vincenzo Maria Coronelli, who had an appointment as a  32 cartographer to the royal court, the court of Louis  33 XIV in Paris.  And available to Coronelli by virtue of  34 that appointment was information stemming from French  35 Canada, from French sources therefore, and in this  36 case what the map shows in addition to a reasonably  37 good rendering of the Great Lakes system that is  38 reasonably good by comparison to earlier maps, in  39 addition to that there is a representation of the  40 Mississippi, drainage of the Mississippi River, and  41 some at least of its major tributaries.  This map  42 therefore shows the result of westward exploration,  43 not only in the conduct of the fur trade, but also  44 in -- with regard to the travels of missionaries and  45 French missionaries who were establishing missions to  46 the Indians of the native people of the area around  47 the Great Lakes and beyond the Great Lakes.  So what 19746  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 we see then is an early representation of Mississippi  2 Drainage, though one can at a glance recognize that  3 there are many uncertainties still apparent, but  4 nonetheless the first map to incorporate in a general  5 map, that is the first map to show the Mississippi  6 Drainage along with the Great Lakes.  7 In addition to the facts or the information that  8 it conveys, one can appreciate that this is a very  9 well crafted piece of work even in the copy -- derived  10 copies that we have before us.  It's a beautiful --  11 beautifully executed map, and that I suppose -- well,  12 I don't suppose, I know it's a carry-over of the  13 Venetian tradition in mapping.  14 Q   You mentioned explorers.  Can you identify who you had  15 in mind?  16 A   Yes.  The date of this map again is 1688, and by that  17 time we had Radisson, Pierre Radisson, and  18 Groseilliers had been in the Lake Superior area, the  19 area immediately west of Lake Superior.  And in 1672 I  20 think, again I don't have notes that will provide me  21 with these dates exactly, but I think it was 1672  22 Joliet and Marquette travelled from the Great Lakes  23 area to the Illinois Drainage and back, and I think  24 too around this date Hennepin, Father Hennepin,  25 travelled in that area.  26 MR. GOLDIE:   All right.  Now, you've mentioned your comparison  27 of French and English cartography, but if you turn to  28 page 10 of your report, please --  29 THE COURT:  Before you leave that, is there anything you can  30 tell me about this apparent range of mountains running  31 along the west bank of the Mississippi?  32 THE WITNESS:   My lord, I cannot with certainty state the source  33 of that information.  I can refer to perceptions that  34 were held, long held in America by the English  35 colonists as well as the French colonists, of a river  36 that led to the mountains and beyond which a river  37 flowed that drained to the western sea, and that idea,  38 that concept, is commonly found -- I'll rephrase that.  39 That concept certainly was widely held.  The readings  40 that I've done indicate that that was a notion that  41 was held.  First presumably it related to the drainage  42 from the Appalachians, and then it was extended.  As  43 westward exploration proceeded, the notion was carried  44 on to, you might say, to extend that range of  45 mountains farther and farther to the westward.  46 THE COURT:  Are you able to assist us with any references where  47 that might be found? 19747  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE WITNESS:   My lord, I cannot at this time.  If I were given  2 time, my lord, I could do it, but I can't at this --  3 off the top of my head.  4 THE COURT:  All right.  If we're going to a new map should we  5 take the morning adjournment?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  I'll tender this one, if I may, my  7 lord, number 7.  8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1149-7.  9  10 (EXHIBIT 1149-7: Map, Author Coronelli)  11  12 THE COURT:  All right.  13 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned for a  14 short recess.  15  16 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS)  17  18 I hereby certify the foregoing to  19 be a true and accurate transcript  20 of the proceedings herein to the  21 best of my skill and ability.  22  23  24 Tanita S. French  25 Official Reporter  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1974?  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  GOLDIE:  My lord.  Q   Dr. Farley, would you turn back to Map 4 and tell us  if you've been able to calculate the overland distance  between the northernmost lake of that string of three  that you identified and the northwest passage as is  depicted on that map.  Does your lordship see the  point of departure that I have in mind?  COURT:  Yes.  GOLDIE:  Q   Can you tell us what the approximate distance would  be?  A   The approximate distance to the mountains would be  about 90 miles.  To the higher lands about 90 miles,  and another 90 miles to the straight represented on  this map.  RUSH:  Is that by marine leagues as indicated in the ledger  scale.  COURT:  Is that by marine leagues or miles?  WITNESS:  No, this would be the equivalent of nautical miles  because what I did was approximate the cosine value of  the latitude in order to get the value to apply in  miles.  COURT:  So it is nautical miles?  Yes, nautical miles.  A nautical mile is a mile and an eighth?  A statute mile and an eighth, two miles, my lord.  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  GOLDIE:  Q  So any distance calculated in the manner that you have  just outlined will inevitably be in nautical miles?  A   Yes.  It is the simplest way to do it.  But one could  make the conversion to statute miles.  Q   All right.  Well, now we had marked Map 7.  Before we  pass on to map -- you had made reference to the  cartography in the two countries French and England in  the 18th century.  And in your report at page 10 you  say, and I quote:  "By the 18th century French cartography  was approaching its height and  scientifically-based mapping from  exact ground observation was widely  practised." 19749  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Now, you have indicated earlier some of the  2 difficulties in applying scientific map making, as it  3 was then known, to heavily wooded areas.  But I would  4 like you to just recapitulate the advances that the  5 French had made and some indication of its application  6 in the maps that we have before us.  7 A   Yes.  As background to this I think it useful to refer  8 to the work of the French mathematician and astronomer  9 Jean Picard who in 1670 initiated a survey of the Arc  10 of the Meridian of Paris.  This measurement or this  11 survey of the Arc of the Meridian involved the  12 application of a new technique -- essentially new  13 technique of triangulation.  That is by taking a base  14 line, a measured base line, setting up a theodolite at  15 one end of the base line and measuring angles to some  16 unknown -- or some object, the position of which is  17 unknown.  By measuring the angle from one end of the  18 base line then proceeding to the other end of the base  19 line and measuring back on the same object, it is  20 possible through this technique to develop a network  21 of positions both planimetric and hypsometrically.  22 But in this context in two-dimentional space  23 planimetrically.  24 Picard initiated that work and it was ultimately,  25 that is to say the Arc of the Meridian of Paris was  26 measured all the way from Dunkirk on the Channel Coast  27 to the Pyrenees.  Now, I mention this, my lord,  28 because it seems to me important to appreciate the  29 impact of the age of enlightenment.  Cartography  30 cannot be viewed in the absence of what was happening  31 at the time in the sense of scientific developments,  32 political developments, economic developments.  And  33 certainly in the scientific world France by this time  34 was prominent, foremost indeed.  So that's one  35 component.  36 Then in terms of the institutions, the French  37 Academy of Science was established -- I'm sorry, I  38 cannot recall the date exactly.  But it was  39 established, in any case, either in the late -- it  40 would be the latter part of the 17th century.  That  41 academy provided a forum for the presentation of new  42 ideas or exchange of information.  It was a scholarly  43 academy just as the name says.  To be appointed to the  44 French academy was, I suppose we could say it is  45 comparable to being nominated to the -- well, to  46 the -- what would be the parallel in the English  47 world. 19750  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   The Royal Society?  2 A   The Royal Society.  Being nominated to The Royal  3 Society is a comparable thing.  So there is a good  4 deal of prestige attached to it.  But particularily,  5 as I mentioned, this -- this establishment of the  6 academy provided a forum for the exchange of ideas and  7 exchange of information.  There was not at this time a  8 parallel in England.  Now, I recognize, my lord, that  9 the roots of The Royal Society go back in Britain a  10 long way.  But there was no comparable at this time,  11 that is to say the time the map was -- the Coronelli  12 map was produced, there was not a convenient forum.  13 Aside from that, the mechanism for the transmission of  14 information from the new world to the old world was  15 pretty well established thanks to -- partly originally  16 to Champlain and, of course, others who followed him.  17 The transmission of that information to the drafting  18 rooms of Paris is rather different.  At least the  19 general situation concerning that information transfer  20 was different and much better organized in France than  21 in Britain.  22 Aside from that if we for a moment consider the  23 English situation there were at the time, as I  24 understand it, my lord, and I do not pretend to be an  25 authority on matters of the law, it is my  26 understanding from my readings that there was  27 virtually no copyright protection for map-makers so  28 that their products could be -- could be replicated at  29 will by others who may or may not amend the content of  30 the map.  And different map sellers acquired the  31 plates of others and simply replicated the maps in  32 some instances without change, in other instances with  33 modifications.  So the upshot of that, my lord, is  34 that it becomes exceedingly difficult to trace the  35 origin of a particular representation on a map as to  36 be able to say:  Oh, this is clearly the work of  37 Jonathan Mitchell, or this is clearly the work of  38 Guillaume De L'isle.  Very difficult.  One can see the  39 same elements in different maps.  So there was  40 widespread borrowing.  41 One other point, my lord, if I may, is that at the  42 time, that is we are talking about the middle of  43 the -- well, the early part to the middle of the 18th  44 century, the custom in Britain was that in the  45 administration of colonies throughout the world the  46 British relied upon -- the British administrators  47 relied upon the products of private map making 19751  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 companies for the maps that -- the areas that they had  2 under administration.  So we find that there was a  3 good deal of jockeying, we might say, for position  4 among the cartographers, that is the English  5 cartographers, to produce maps that were new, maps  6 that were of a quality that might be accepted by the  7 colonial administrators.  So those are the points, my  8 lord, I wanted to make in that connection.  9 Q   Well, let's see if we can pick up the maps.  Would you  10 turn to number 8 and tell his lordship the background  11 of this map.  12 A   Yes, the Guillaume De L'isle is a map of 1703.  And  13 one of the reasons for including this particular map  14 is that it does, again, embrace information for the  15 area immediately to the west of the Great Lakes.  The  16 information there based upon reports, narratives of  17 the missionaries who travelled the country and also  18 traders.  But more particularily it has in its western  19 portion a representation of lakes and mountain,  20 mountain chain and the label Pays de Moosemeks.  21 That's in the western portion of the map, the south  22 western portion of the map.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  Does your lordship have that?  2 4    THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   Yes.  27 A  All of that, my lord, stems from yet another  28 fictitious account, an account published by one Baron  29 LaHontan.  30 THE COURT:  L-A-H-O-N-T-E?  31 THE WITNESS:  My lord, it is capital L-A, capital H-O-N-T-A-N,  32 LaHontan.  We know since his journal was published  33 that we can easily access it.  We know from that that  34 LaHontan did in fact visit the fort at  35 Michilimackinac.  He alleged in his journal to have  36 travelled from there westward.  He reached -- if  37 memory serves me correctly, in the company of Indians,  38 Indian guides, he reached via a river and a lake  39 system a chain of mountains beyond which a river  40 flowed, and that river flowed to an area where the  41 Moseemlek Indians resided.  42 Q   This is what is stated in his journal, is it?  43 A   This is the essence of what LaHontan has to say.  Once  44 again, that concept of a stream leading toward the  45 mountains and from the mountains to a river of the  46 west which led to the sea of the west is in keeping  47 with the concept that was held by early colonists in 19752  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 New England and also in New France.  But the whole  2 representation there for the western portion of the  3 map that is beyond -- west of about the 200 -- well,  4 on this map the calibration is eastward.  But let's  5 say from 277 degrees westward is based upon fiction.  6 Q   I note that De L'isle records in the nameplate that he  7 is a member of The Royal Academy of Sciences.  Is that  8 the institution you were referring to?  9 A   Yes.  The Royal Academy, yes.  So that in that  10 context, my lord, it may at first blush seem that this  11 cartographer was not reputable to have included such  12 information.  The fact that he was a member of The  13 Royal Academy suggests to my mind, and again with  14 deference it is a suggestion, my interpretation --  15 MR. RUSH:  Well, then I object to it.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, maybe you had better tell us what you wanted  17 to say and then we will see what my friend's concern  18 is.  19 MR. RUSH:  Well, that's not the usual way an objection is dealt  2 0 with, my lord.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it is sometimes better —  22 MR. RUSH:  First we find the evidence and then we give the  23 objection.  24 THE COURT:  Well, we are having a voir dire, I suppose, are we?  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, precisely.  It is somewhat what a layman  26 regards as his interpretation and it turns out to be  27 something more.  28 THE COURT:  Well, let me think about that.  I think that the  29 witness can tell me what conclusion he has reached if  30 it is based upon principles that are normally and  31 habitually followed by cartographers.  But if it isn't  32 based on that process then I don't think I should hear  33 it.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  I agree of course, my lord.  35 THE COURT:  What do you say about that?  Were you about to tell  36 us something that is based upon the usual practice of  37 cartographers?  38 THE WITNESS:  My lord, I was.  I simply wanted to say that this  39 man who prepared the map, this cartographer was  40 thoroughly reputable, that he was using the best  41 information that he had available.  In this case he  42 accepted the LaHontan narrative as being factual when  43 it was, in fact, fictitious.  He was unable at that  44 stage to recognize the difference.  This is  45 representative of what happened in the early days of  46 mapping North America.  47 THE COURT:  Do we know the date of Baron LaHontan's 19753  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 publications?  2 THE WITNESS:  I don't have it before me, my lord, but I could  3 easily produce it.  4 THE COURT:  All right.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  I tender that as 1149-8, my lord.  6 THE COURT:  That will be 1149-8, yes.  7  8 (EXHIBIT 1149-8:  Map, Author G. De L'isle)  9  10 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, you then move into the English maps.  11 THE COURT:  I think I like the French better.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  13 Q   Before leaving the French maps, you make reference on  14 page 11 to Bellin, B-E-L-L-I-N.  Do we come later to  15 maps that he prepared?  16 A  We do, sir.  Bellin again is a distinguished  17 cartographer.  Well, perhaps, it would be appropriate  18 for me to elaborate that a bit when we come to his  19 maps.  20 Q   All right.  Now, with respect to the English  21 cartographers, the first map that you refer to is  22 under Map 9.  You say in respect of the maps that were  23 supplied by commercial publishers, and I am referring  24 to page 11 of your report that:  25  26 "...these publishers relied heavily  27 on reworked information from French  28 sources for representation of the  29 continental interior."  30  31 And you give us an example of that Popple's map.  32 Would you now -- is that the one that is under 9?  33 A   Yes.  This is Map 9 by Henry Popple.  What we have  34 before us, my lord, is the general map that  35 accompanies a much larger map that is in sections.  If  36 memory serves me correctly, there are eight separate  37 sections to this map.  They are at a considerably  38 larger scale than what we might call a condensed  39 version that we have before us.  The information that  40 Popple employed was for the interior largely from  41 French sources, derived from French sources.  Once  42 again, a number of scholars have examined this map and  43 have written about it.  I believe I have mentioned at  44 least one of the references in that context.  45 MR. RUSH:  What is that, please?  46 THE WITNESS:  Excuse me.  Once again, since I don't have my  47 notes before me I have to look at what I've written. 19754  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. RUSH:  Well —  2 THE WITNESS:  I have to find it.  3 MR. RUSH:  Well, if the notes would help on this account I don't  4 mind him referring to them.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   Miss Sigurdson will give you your notes there.  7 A   Thank you.  Yes.  In the introductory notes to a  8 facsimile reproduction of the Popple map, the  9 introductory notes, the title of the publication is  10 Henry Popple, A map of the British Empire in America,  11 published by Harry Margary, Lympne Castle, Kent, 1972.  12 And there are some introductory notes by Cumming and  13 Wallace, both of whom are distinguished librarians.  14 Wallace was associated with the map collection and the  15 British Museum for a number of years.  In any case,  16 these introductory notes indicate the sources of the  17 Popple map.  I think that we can take it that the two  18 authors there, Cumming and Wallace know about the  19 Popple map.  20 Q   And the date of this map is?  21 A   Excuse me.  Yes, it's approximately 1733.  It is  22 difficult to date exactly, but according to Crone it  23 is 1733.  24 MR. RUSH:  Just before my friend proceeds, the reference that  25 the witness has directed the court's attention to is  26 not cited in the bibliography.  I wonder if a specific  27 reference can be cited given the fact that he is  28 relying on other authors.  29 THE WITNESS:  My lord, may I answer that?  Is it in order for me  30 to answer?  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 THE WITNESS:  I would then suggest that the reference by Crone,  33 Maps and their makers which is listed in the  34 references London, 1966, to be a suitable alternative.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  36 Q   Professor Farley, in the lower right-hand corner there  37 appears a block of printing.  I am not sure that it  38 can be made out.  Can you -- are you able to read that  39 for us?  40 A   You're referring to the block down in the lower  41 right-hand corner?  42 Q   Yes.  43 A   I think I can read this.  44  45 "Mr. Popple undertook this map with  46 the approbation of the Honourable  47 the Lords Commissioners of Trade 19755  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 and Plantations and great care has  2 been taken by comparing all the maps,  3 charts and observations that could  4 be found, especially the..."  5  6 Q   "Authentic"?  7 A "...authentic records and something  8 surveys transmitted to their lordships  9 by the governors of the said provinces  10 and others to -- and others..."  11  12 Q   Perhaps I can help you.  My lord, I have the -- the  13 reproduction certified by the national map collection  14 of the public archives.  The printing is a little  15 clearer.  If I can complete the block.  16  17 "...actual surveys transmitted to their  18 lordships by the governors of the  19 British plantations and others to  20 correct the many errors committed  21 in former maps, and the original  22 drawing of this has been shown to  23 the learned Dr. Edmund Halley,  24 Professor of Astronomy in the  25 University of Oxford and F.R.S.  26 which I take to be Fellow of  27 The Royal Society.  He was pleased  28 to give his opinion of it in the words  29 following."  30  31 I won't say what Professor Halley says.  I take it  32 that is the Halley as in Halley's Comet, is it?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Can you tell us something about the use to which this  35 map was put?  36 A   Yes.  This map was considered a basic reference.  When  37 I say "this map," I should make clear we are  38 talking -- we have before us the general map.  The  39 complete map is much larger and, as I've mentioned, in  40 several sections.  So the complete map is the thing  41 that was indeed one of the -- and programmes the major  42 authority for location, positioning that was in use in  43 the colonies and referred to by administrators of the  44 British colonies in America.  45 MR. RUSH:  Is there a source for that opinion?  46 THE WITNESS:  Again Crone is mentioned here.  I have already  47 referred to another source, but Crone will do. 19756  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   And in your report you stated at page 12 that it was  utilized,  "...by the British negotiators reviewing  the terms and interpretations of the  Treaty of Utrecht."  9 By "British negotiators reviewing," I take it you are  10 referring to events after the Treaty, are you?  11 A   Oh, indeed because the map is dated 1733, or it is  12 approximately 1733.  So, yes, it would be after the  13 Treaty of Utrecht.  14 THE COURT:  Utrecht was in the 1750's?  15 THE WITNESS:  The Treaty of Utrecht, my lord?  16 MR. GOLDIE:  1713.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  But I think there has been evidence of the attempts  19 by the commissioners appointed under that Treaty to  20 settle certain boundaries.  21 MR. RUSH:  Unsuccessfully.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  23 Q   Unsuccessfully, yes, that's correct.  You have  24 compared Popple's work with Coronelli.  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And in Mr. Coronelli's favour, I understand?  27 A   Yes.  I think that what we see here is a good attempt  28 to incorporate available information.  But in terms of  29 the technique of rendering that information the map  30 appears cluttered by comparison.  That was -- and that  31 was perhaps characteristic of Popple that he should  32 try to fill the otherwise vacant spaces with line work  33 suggesting rivers that may or may not have been  34 recognized as -- on the basis of actual observation.  35 But it is -- again, it is characteristic of Popple's  36 work that -- less sharp than either his French  37 contemporaries or Coronelli.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I tendered that as Exhibit 1149-9.  3 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  40  41 (EXHIBIT 1149-9:  Map, Author Popple)  42  43 THE COURT:  Could I have the spelling of the other map-maker  44 that did better work than this work?  45 MR. GOLDIE:  It is Coronelli, my lord.  46 THE COURT:  C-O-R-E-N-E-L-L-I?  47 THE WITNESS:  C-O-R-O-N-E-L-L-I. 19757  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  2 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  4 Q   Now, you referred in your evidence a few minutes ago  5 about the acquisition by some of the British  6 map-makers of plates of another.  I take it that all  7 of these maps were produced through an engraved copper  8 plate; is that correct?  9 A   Yes.  That's correct.  Copper plate engraving had been  10 developed early on in the renaissance.  And if memory  11 serves me right, it was developed primarily by  12 goldsmiths and silversmiths to keep track of their  13 ornate designs.  But cartographers by the -- within 50  14 years of the development of woodcuts, cartographers  15 had adopted the copper plate as a means of replicating  16 their maps.  And this was in wide use.  In fact, it  17 was only partly replaced by steel plate later.  18 Q   On page 12 you make reference to Mr. Jefferys.  One of  19 his maps we have seen before.  You state that:  20  21 "He was named Geographer to the Prince  22 of Wales in 1746 and "Geographer to the King" in  23 1761."  24  25 What was the effect of those appointments so far as  26 map-making is concerned?  27 A   He was -- by his appointment, he became a member of  28 the royal household.  He would have been regarded as  29 any other specialist tradesman who had received such  30 appointments.  But particularily in the context of  31 cartography he would have had access to information  32 that would not be readily available to the -- let's  33 call them the run-of-the-mill cartographer.  Not  34 necessarily privileged information, but he had the  35 entree to sources that would have been difficult for  36 other cartographers who held no such appointment would  37 have had.  38 MR. RUSH:  Is there a source for that, my lord?  39 THE WITNESS:  I have my bibliography in here.  I think in this  40 case if we looked at Tooley, Tooley's dictionary of  41 map-makers, Tring, Hertforshire, 1979.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  43 Q   That is on the second page of your bibliography?  44 A   Yes.  45 MR. RUSH:  Is there a page I can be referred to?  46 MR. GOLDIE:  Perhaps an index will be available in the volume.  47 MR. RUSH:  Well, perhaps there would be, but I am not leading 1975?  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 the witness.  2 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush, the witness obviously can't give a page  3 number from memory unless it is here or unless he has  4 a note of it.  Let's find out if he has.  5 THE WITNESS:  My lord, I did not make a note of that particular  6 point.  7 THE COURT:  Is the book available conveniently?  8 THE WITNESS:  It is available in special collections at U B.C.,  9 my lord.  10 THE COURT:  I think that's the best we can do.  11 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  13 Q   And you give some particular examples of that in your  14 summary of your report at page 13, including those  15 that he went into business with.  We will come to one  16 of his maps that was produced in his royal -- in his  17 American atlas.  But under the -- in conjunction with  18 another map-maker, Mr. Bowen.  I am referring to your  19 report at the top of page 13?  20 A   Yes.  In this instance it is difficult to know in that  21 American atlas just which of the maps Jefferys was  22 entirely responsible for or partly responsible for or  23 had virtually no hand in.  I think it is fairly clear  24 from the literature that it's not easily possible to  25 make such a distinction, and I do not pretend to have  26 made such a distinction.  It seemed to me to be beyond  27 the purpose of this report as setting the background,  28 the geographic background to the legal argument to do  29 that.  30 Q   Now, you then go on to talk about a map of Jonathan  31 Mitchell's which you characterize as:  32  33 "An important American map of the period."  34  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Is that Map 10, or at least —  37 A   Yes, Map 10.  And in the folio of maps there are two  38 parts.  The first of which is the title sheet.  And  39 the second of which reproduces much of the content of  40 the main part of the map.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  So the -- my lord, in the preceding pocket.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Is the reproduction of part of the title sheet.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 5 THE COURT:  46 Q   What is the date of this map?  47 A   This is dated 1755, my lord. 19759  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   And your lordship will see in the upper or in the mid  2 left-hand side of the title sheet a date February 13,  3 1755, plantation office which that would be the date  4 of Mr. Pownall's certificate.  It is somewhat  5 comparable to that on the Popple map.  I can make it  6 out in my copy.  It reads:  7  8 "This map was undertaken with the  9 approbation at the request of the  10 Lords Commissioners for Trade and  11 Plantations and is chiefly composed  12 from drafts, charts and actual surveys  13 of different parts of his Majesty's  14 colonies and plantations in America,  15 a great part of which have been lately  16 taken by their Lordships orders and  17 transmitted to this office by the  18 governors of the said colonies and others."  19  20 This was a very large map, I take it?  21 A   Yes.  This, like the Popple map, is a very large one.  22 It was produced in a number of sheets.  The copy that  23 we have for the main part of the map that is part of  24 the title represents a partial reduction of the  25 original and the combination onto one large piece of  26 paper for the convenience of the court.  27 Q   You state in your report that:  28  29 "The original was published on eight sheets..."  30  31 A   Yes.  32 Q "...forming a map of the eastern half of  33 North America at a scale of approximately  34 32 miles-to-the-inch."  35  36 A   So that it was, indeed, a large scale representation.  37 And having such a scale, there was a good deal of  38 paper space for the cartographer to enter the  39 appropriate information.  In addition to the general  40 line work, it was possible to put a number of  41 notations as well as the map and the names of  42 different features, rivers, Indian tribes and so on.  43 By way of background, this cartographer Mitchell had  44 taken a degree at the University of Edinburgh and he  45 was trained as a medical doctor.  There is some  46 uncertainty about his bibliography.  Some authorities  47 indicate that he was born in the colonies, others that 19760  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  he was born in Britain.  I think that that's not  really an important point in the context dealing with  the map.  The fact is that he spent time in America.  He was persona grata with distinguished members of The  Royal Society.  By this time The Royal Society had  been established and was functioning very well.  And  also --  MR. RUSH:  I object here, my lord, to any evidence that the  witness might lead or give his -- offer his opinion in  relation to the relationship of this cartographer to  members of the British government and what he might  think about their relationship to him.  It was  something that I raised during the course of my  argument about the objectionability of certain  passages, and this is one I referred to.  And I think  I have read parts of it to you.  It is  unsubstantiated.  It was, in my submission,  directly -- it is clearly the opinion of the author --  of the witness, rather, that goes well beyond his  relationship to the cartographic knowledge which is  the document which is Mr. Mitchell's map that is here  represented.  THE COURT:  What is the source of your evidence in this  connection, Doctor?  THE WITNESS:  My lord, if you will give me a moment I will be  able to identify that.  Yes, Lewis De Vorsey's  introductory notes in North America at the time of  the revolution will be helpful.  Yes, that indeed is  the best source that I would suggest to your lordship.  Lewis De Vorsey, general introduction to North  America at the time of the revolution.  COURT:  Is this a matter that you want to pursue, Mr.  Goldie?  GOLDIE:  Pardon me, my lord?  COURT:  Is this a matter that you wish to pursue, that is  the relationship between a cartographer and the  British government?  GOLDIE:  As far as I am concerned, my lord, this is one of  the times when the map speaks for themselves.  RUSH:  The maps always speak for themselves, my lord.  GOLDIE:  The certificate which I read to your lordship --  COURT:  Do you wish to go beyond that?  I'm sorry, do you  wish the witness to go beyond that?  It seems to me we  could well move on to something else.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  I take it that the objection, and I want to  be clear about this because so far as I'm aware it is  the first objection to anything that is in the report,  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR. 19761  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 is on page 14 where the witness says:  2  3 "It seems likely that these science-oriented  4 politicians felt the need for a new and  5 comprehensive map of the American colonies  6 especially in view of the recent French  7 incursions into the Ohio country."  8  9 If that's objected to on the basis of speculation, I  10 am not -- I am not going to --  11 THE COURT:  All right.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  -- spend much time on that.  The rest I see nothing  13 wrong with.  14 MR. RUSH:  Well, so my silence won't be seen as agreeing with my  15 friend's assumptions, this is not the first objection  16 to a passage in the report.  The objection is based on  17 two views.  One is that it is the opinion not founded  18 in fact of the witness that he has referred us to.  19 And, secondly, it is in my submission within the  20 purview of your lordship to make interpretations with  21 relation to documents.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I am not advancing an argument in respect of  23 that part that I read.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   The next sentence is a statement of fact and  27 everything that follows, in my submission, are  28 statements of fact.  You state on page 16, Professor  29 Farley, that the:  30  31 "...comprehensiveness and accuracy were  32 laudable for its time."  33  34 And that is based upon your comparison with this and  35 other maps?  36 A   Yes, it is.  37 Q   And you say:  38  39 "It is far from the rigorously-controlled  40 and truthful maps that are routinely  41 produced by mapping agencies today."  42  43 Is that based upon the advance in technique as well as  44 the success of the cartographer or what?  45 A   I think one could say that it is based upon the  46 advance of technology.  That is to say when you are  47 referring to the maps of today -- 19762  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Yes.  2 A   -- versus Mitchell's map.  3 Q   Yes.  4 A   The maps of today are based on a much advanced  5 technology.  And although I have said "truthful," I  6 suppose it depends on the definition of what is the  7 truth.  If we are going to say is it within one  8 millimeter of the true geodetic position then I would  9 have to say, well, in many cases not.  But for  10 practical purposes we can say that the maps that are  11 available today they tell the truth.  They say what is  12 there in a certain point of the position, X Y and Z  13 co-ordinates.  So by comparison with a modern map we  14 can say, yes, there is lots wrong with the Mitchell  15 map.  Lots of things that were not well represented.  16 But for the time and the information available to him  17 it was really a remarkable piece of work.  It took him  18 a number of years to compile.  19 Q   You mentioned in your reference to the French  20 cartographers that Picard had been of assistance in  21 determining what was the Arc of the Meridian in Paris?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And that was of assistance in determining the  24 longitude?  25 A   Yes.  In that same connection Jean Dominique Cassini  26 had developed a method of determining the longitude by  27 observing the emersions of the satellites of Jupiter.  28 It is a long complex procedure mathematically and  29 mechanically and involved the setting up of telescopes  30 for observations purposes over a period of time.  31 Well, the result of the Cassini work, this  32 distinguished member of the Cassini family, Jean  33 Dominique Cassini was the preparation of a planisphere  34 that was laid out on the floor of the Royal  35 Observatory in Paris and was later copied.  It is  36 through copies that we know something of the quality  37 of Cassini's work.  But that was a breakthrough, even  38 though it involved a cumbersome method and the  39 cumbersome equipment could not even be contemplated  40 for use aboard ship.  But that was a breakthrough in  41 the sense that it allowed the more accurate  42 determination of the longitude.  And so far as the  43 coastline is concerned, not all of it, but parts of  44 the coastline, it was possible therefore for the  45 French cartographers at the time to do a pretty good  46 job of representing the longitude in comparison to  47 what had existed heretofor, that is to say by deduced 19763  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 reckoning or dead reckoning as it is often termed.  2 Q   Now, was there any equivalent on the British side that  3 assisted in the more accurate determination of  4 longitude?  5 A   Yes.  But a little later than the date of this map by  6 Mitchell.  The development of the Harrisson  7 chronometer really solved the problem of longitude  8 determination very effectively.  For a long period of  9 time it was better than the system of lunar distances  10 that Vancouver in fact used in conjunction with  11 chronometers.  But I can't recall the exact date of  12 the developments or the perfection of the chronometer.  13 Three families of Harrisons worked on this.  Three  14 generations I should say of the same family.  It was  15 perfected in 1765.  So this development or perfection  16 of the chronometer was just a little before Jonathan  17 Mitchell's map was published.  18 Q   And is it my understanding from your report that the  19 development of fixing the longitude involved in great  20 measure the east-west distortion of mapping prior to  21 to that time?  22 A   Yes.  That and projection systems, the development of  23 more elaborate projections systems which in turn  24 related to the measurement of the Arc of Meridian.  25 Because by that mechanic physicists and astronomers  26 were able to compute more exactly the figure and size  27 of the either.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  Now, before I go on, my lord, I tender  29 the -- I will call the title sheet of the Mitchell map  30 as 1149-10, Part 1, or is that too —  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  That will be 10-1 and this will be 10-2.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  And then the larger portion of the Mitchell map  33 will be Exhibit 1149-10, Part 2.  34  35 (EXHIBIT 1149-10, Part 1, Title page, Author Mitchell)  36  37 EXHIBIT 1149-10, Part 2, Map, Author Mitchell)  38  39 THE COURT:  Before you put this map away, I'm sorry.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  41 THE COURT:  What do you say about the depiction in the large map  42 of the Missouri River?  Can you remind me where the  43 Missouri runs into the Mississippi?  44 THE WITNESS:  Well, by this date, my lord, there had been as I  45 mentioned earlier some exploration of the area between  46 the Great Lakes and the Mississippi system.  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes. 19764  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  THE WITNESS:  And as we see on this map the Moingona River is  labelled which would be the Des Moin River.  There was  some -- there was some information again mainly from  the Verendrye work about Indian -- yes, the native  Indian people and drainage to the west, but rather  imprecise.  So we see on the map the label:  "Missouri River is reckoned to run  westward to the mountains of New Mexico  as far as the Ohio does eastward."  Clearly that statement indicates there was a good deal  of uncertainty about this river, the Missouri River.  MR. RUSH:  I object to that, my lord.  THE COURT:  Why, Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  Because I think the statement says what it says.  And  it is up to your lordship to determine what it says  and not for the witness to say clearly it reveals a  great deal of uncertainty about anything.  I mean  that's what the statement is.  Now, that I think is  precisely falling into a category where your lordship  has said that you can interpret the documents and to  ascribe to them the meaning that you do as part of  your judgment.  THE COURT:  Well, the conclusion is finally for me.  But it is  certainly very useful to have the matter brought into  some context where it says:  "The Missouri is reckoned to run  westward to the mountains of New Mexico  as far as the Ohio does eastward."  And I'm not sure how far the Ohio runs eastward.  I  can't even find the Ohio on here at the moment, but I  am sure it is here somewhere.  My lord, I don't have any problem with finding out  where the Ohio is and all of that.  Yes.  But I think it is up to your lordship to decide  whether there is confusion in anyone's mind.  Well, the characterization of it is certainly a  matter that I will wrestle with it, but I need the  facts to do that.  And one of the facts I want to know  is how far eastward the Ohio runs.  Can you find the  Ohio on this map?  THE WITNESS:  On this map, my lord, it is not replicated.  THE COURT:  No.  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT: 19765  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE WITNESS:  Simply because mechanically these maps are so  2 large.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 THE WITNESS:  And it is difficult to reduce them to a format  5 that is readable on the one hand and physically  6 managable.  7 THE COURT:  So the Ohio is not on this map?  8 THE WITNESS:  No, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  And nor should it be on this map?  10 THE WITNESS:  Well, I did not see fit to include it with this  11 portion of the Mitchell map, again for the reasons  12 that I have just outlined.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  But there is another portion of the Mitchell map  15 that has the Ohio on it?  16 THE WITNESS:  Oh, yes, indeed.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  19 Q   Is there any way in which you can conveniently  20 determine the approximate length of the Ohio?  21 A   Even as a geographer who believes he knows something  22 about the drainage of North America, I would have to  23 look at a map of North America.  24 THE COURT:  Well, I can probably do that.  I can probably look  25 at the Ohio river and see where it is.  I just thought  26 it might be something that I can usefully refer to.  27 Where does the Missouri have its headwaters?  28 THE WITNESS:  Off in the present State of Wyoming, my lord.  2 9 THE COURT:  Wyoming.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  31 Q   The question I put to you is whether the other portion  32 of the Mitchell map is conveniently available?  This  33 came from the archives, I take it?  34 A   Yes.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I will explore that, my lord, and see if it  36 is around.  37 THE COURT:  Thank you.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  39 Q   Now, the other comment that I notice on the map the  40 Mitchell stated that:  41  42 "The head of the Mississippi is not  43 yet known and is supposed to arise  44 about the 50 degree of latitude and  45 western bounds of this map beyond  46 which North America it extends nigh  47 so far westward as it does to the 19766  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 eastward by all accounts."  2  3 Perhaps that meaning is clear to other people, but it  4 is not to me.  Can you tell me what that -- well, may  5 I put this question to you.  Is the supposed head of  6 the Mississippi shown on Mitchell's map?  7 A   No, it is not shown because it is the -- the  8 Mississippi River is shown to be truncated by an inset  9 map of Hudson Bay.  10 Q   Yes.  That being so, can you locate approximately on  11 this map what is the supposition stated in that  12 reference I just read?  13 A   The supposed head -- well, it says it was supposed to  14 arise about the 59 degree of latitude.  And the 50  15 degree of latitude is shown on the map if we look at  16 the inset or rather beyond the inset to the  17 calibration of the grid on the map.  You see the  18 numeral 50 indicated.  So if we were to mentally  19 project the line it would reach up to some position  20 approximately 50 degrees.  Clearly Mitchell -- neither  21 Mitchell nor any other of his type knew the source --  22 what the source of the Mississippi River was because  23 there was no firsthand information available from the  24 French sources or the British sources that would have  25 indicated -- that would have given Mitchell the  26 information he needed to say there is the head of the  27 Mississippi.  28 THE COURT:  Where does the Mississippi arise?  29 THE WITNESS:  It arises, my lord, in a small lake in Minnesota.  30 It is called Lake Itasca.  I have the co-ordinate  31 positions I think indicated.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, perhaps we might have that after lunch, my  33 lord, the co-ordinates of Lake Itasca.  34 THE COURT:  2 o'clock, please.  35 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until 2  36 o'clock.  37 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL 2 O'CLOCK)  38  39 I hereby certify the foregoing to  40 be a true and accurate transcript  41 of the proceedings herein to the  42 best of my skill and ability.  43  44  4 5    46 LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  47 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 19767  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   My lord.  7 Dr. Farley, we left at the noon adjournment the  8 question of the co-ordinates of the headwaters of the  9 Mississippi as presently understood today or as  10 determined today.  Can you assist his lordship in that  11 respect?  12 A   Yes, the co-ordinates for Lake Itasca, which is now  13 recognized as the source of the Mississippi, 47  14 degrees, 13 minutes north, and 95 degrees, 13 minutes  15 west.  I should mention that the lake is about three  16 miles long so that the co-ordinates I've stated are  17 the approximate midpoint of the lake.  18 MR. GOLDIE:   Thank you.  I was at page 16 of your report.  19 THE COURT:  Just let me ask you this.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  21 THE COURT:  47 degrees, 13 north, is where on this map?  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Your lordship's referring to the Mitchell map?  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  I see 46 on — but that's longitude is it,  24 not -- no, that's --  25 THE WITNESS:   If your lordship — on this map of Mitchell's the  26 inset of the Hudson Bay, the feature Hudson Bay, is  27 put in the position where we would expect the  28 headwater of the Mississippi to be shown.  At the time  29 that this map was prepared no one knew where the  30 headwater of the Mississippi was located.  When I say  31 no one --  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 THE WITNESS:   -- I'm speaking in the context of European  34 cartographers and information that they used.  35 THE COURT:  But we see 47 degrees just on the lower left corner  36 of the inset?  37 THE WITNESS:   Yes, that's for the main map the 47th parallel is  3 8 shown.  3 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  40 THE WITNESS:   And the other co-ordinate would be, if we could  41 conjecture where it might have been had the --  42 THE COURT:  So it's considerably further west of the westerly  43 edge of this map?  44 THE WITNESS:   Yes, to the north, and yes, to the west.  Yes,  45 that's correct.  46 THE COURT:  All right.  But that's in Minnesota?  47 THE WITNESS:   In Minnesota, my lord. 1976?  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Doesn't Wisconsin start on the edge of Lake Michigan  2 and is Minnesota not next to Wisconsin?  3 THE WITNESS:   Yes, my lord.  4 THE COURT:  It still is.  So this map then, as I understand it,  5 is, everything from the south end of Lake Michigan to  6 the edge of the map, would all be Wisconsin or most of  7 Wisconsin?  8 MR. GOLDIE:  At the risk of compounding confusion, with respect,  9 when your lordship says go west, as I read this map,  10 the northings and southings, 95 is just above the  11 word -- runs through the letter "R" in Eastern Sioux.  12 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  Oh, yes, so it does.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  What is obliterated by the Hudson's Bay inset is  14 the parallel of 47, 13 I guess.  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  16 MR. RUSH:  Is that — I didn't understand that to be so.  Is the  17 13 minutes obliterated by the inset?  18 THE COURT:  I would take it to be just on the edge, wouldn't it,  19 Doctor, 47, 13 would be just on the edge of that inset  20 or just on the bottom of that inset?  21 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  We can see 47, 30.  If we look at the  22 left-hand margin of the map and the calibration of the  23 latitudinal scale, you'll see there's a prominent tic  24 mark there and that would represent 47 degrees, 30  25 minutes, so then interpolating from that the minor  26 graduations in the scale are at 20 minute or 20 mile  27 intervals, so there's 20, 40, 60, so coming from 47  28 the first calibration you see, the first minor  29 calibration, though partly obscured by the -- in this  30 replication of the map, that first calibration would  31 be 47 degrees, 20 minutes.  So indeed if we were to  32 think of 47 degrees and figure out -- I think I gave  33 47, 13 it would be just at the lower -- just below the  34 lower edge of the inset.  And the longitudinal  35 reference was 95 degrees, 13 minutes.  And I have to  36 check the map to make sure we're not dealing with  37 longitude west of Ferro.  This would be longitude west  38 of London, if memory serves me right.  Then 95 degrees  39 and 13 minutes would put the position, if we were to  40 plot the true position as we recognize it today of  41 Lake Itasca, it would be in that quadrangle that  42 graticule north and east of the feature labelled on  43 the map as L. Mississaugan or Buade.  44 THE COURT:  Yes.  E-t-a-s-k-a for —  45 THE WITNESS:   It's I-t-a-s-c-a.  46 THE COURT:  I-t-a-s-c-a.  47 THE WITNESS:   Yes, my lord.  I think it is variously spelled in 19769  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 the literature, but my understanding is that the -- in  2 the present gazetteers anyway I know that it is  3 indicated as I-t-a-s-c-a.  4 THE COURT:  Why is there a break in the columns on the extreme  5 left just above 47th parallel?  6 THE WITNESS:   In the replication of the map, my lord, there --  7 probably on the original there was something that --  8 when I say the original I mean the facsimile --  9 THE COURT:  I see.  10 THE WITNESS:   — from which this was copied.  11 THE COURT:  It doesn't indicate a break in the continuity of  12 that scale?  13 THE WITNESS:   No, my lord.  To illustrate, this black patch in  14 the upper left is the same sort of origin.  It's  15 purely mechanical in the replication of the map.  16 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  All right.  Thank you.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  18 Q   Just one further question before we leave page 16 of  19 your report, if you could refer to that.  In your  20 footnote you say that:  21  22 "Mitchell's map was an important reference  23 during Parliamentary debate in the Quebec Act  24 of 1774.  Further, it was the official map  25 employed by British and American negotiators in  26 framing the treaty of 1783 that concluded the  27 American Revolution."  28  29 Upon what facts do you rely for that, Doctor?  30 A   I rely on the general introduction given by Louis De  31 Vorsey, that's capital D, lower case e, capital V,  32 o-r-s-e-y, De Vorsey, in his general introduction to a  33 publication titled "North America at the Time of the  34 Revolution".  And De Vorsey is not alone in his  35 interpretation of the use to which the map was put,  36 but I think that that would be a convenient reference.  37 Q   Now, you go on later on page -- commencing at page 16  38 to talk about Bowen?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And we're going to come to his maps a little later,  41 and I'll do that in the sequence, but then at the  42 bottom of the page you make reference to a smaller  43 scale representation of North America titled "America  44 laid down from the observations of the Royal Academy  45 of Sciences and compared with the maps of Sanson,  46 Nolin, Du Fer, De L'isle", et cetera, and that's map  47 11 is it? 19770  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A  Map 11, yes.  2 MR. GOLDIE:   Would you please state what the matters are of  3 interest in respect of the map?  4 THE COURT:  Do we go to map 11 now?  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   Yes, we're going to 11.  7 A   Yes.  This map was designed as a general reference for  8 North America and the West Indies and middle America,  9 and it attempts to link some of the best French  10 portrayals, cartographic portrayals, with those of the  11 Spanish and of course English.  And the third point of  12 interest concerning this map, as I've indicated in the  13 appendix A, it shows the heads of the Mississippi, and  14 that's indicated.  It shows them to be lying in  15 latitude 50 degrees.  16 Now, on this reproduction of the original map, a  17 copy of which is in the special collections division  18 at U.B.C, that line, if your lordship can see on the  19 upper left-hand part of the map there is a double  20 line, horizontal line, representing the Arctic Circle,  21 and if one then casts one's eye down from that there's  22 a second line and then a third line, a third line that  23 extends east-west representing of course a parallel of  24 latitude, extends east-west just above the name  25 Moseemlek on the map.  And that line, if one traces it  26 eastward, intersects with a dark tone line on the map,  27 and at that point of intersection or close to it is  28 the label "Heads of the Mississippi", a little  29 difficult to read, but I think barely legible.  30 MR. GOLDIE:   All right.  Does your lordship have that?  31 THE COURT:  I think so, but let me just make sure.  Yes.  Thank  32 you.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  34 Q   All right.  Now, you located that by reference to that  35 east-west line?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And you made reference to Moseemlek. Would you explain  38 what that is?  39 A  Again, the representation of that drainage -- well,  40 the name Moseemlek, Moseemlek Countrey, spelled r-e-y,  41 Moseemlek Countrey, that name, and the nomenclature  42 associated with the stream system that extends  43 eastward from that label Moseemlek Countrey, is  44 derived from the narrative of Baron La Hontan, so that  45 it is entirely based, that is the map portrayal there,  46 is entirely based on a fictitious account.  47 Q   And then just to the left and below the words 19771  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 "Moseemlek Countrey" is a six or seven line inscript  2 which appears to read "California was always thought  3 an island", and I can't make it out, something,  4 "Spanish Jesuit in 1701 discovered it was joined to  5 the continent of which the royal society received  6 information on 1708".  That's just opposite Cape  7 Mendochin.  All right.  What is the date of this  8 particular map?  9 A   This would be the 1763 Bowen.  10 Q   And you state that it was printed -- engraved by  11 Bowen, and printed for John Bowles & Son?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   All right.  14 A  May I say that in the listing in the library at U.B.C.  15 and elsewhere this map is under -- indicated in the  16 files under the authorship of Bowen, Emmanual Bowen.  17 Q   And you say on page 18 that cartographers at the time  18 "did not know (nor could they have known) what lay in  19 the trans-Mississippi west", and you make that  20 statement on the basis of this and other maps that  21 we've been looking at?  22 A   Yes.  May I first suggest the grid on this map,  23 because it's difficult to know which parallel is  24 which, obviously the Arctic Circle is labelled, but  25 the line I referred to a moment ago that intersects  26 with the headwaters of the label "heads of the  27 Mississippi" --  28 Q   Yes.  29 A   -- that line is the 50th parallel of north latitude.  30 Q   All right.  31 A   The calibration of longitude on this map is evident if  32 one looks at the equatorial part of the map.  In fact,  33 the equator is shown by the line that is alternately  34 white blocks or clear blocks and shaded blocks.  And  35 we can see, just glancing at that, that the longitude  36 is calibrated eastward, but eastward from one point.  37 And I'll have to look at my appendix A, but in any  38 case, I think we can say that on this map the  39 longitude scales are actually shown, but the longitude  40 is calibrated from Ferro, so we'd have to make a  41 conversion to get to longitude west of Greenwich.  I'm  42 not sure that that's critically important, but I think  43 for our purposes at the moment we can say that in the  44 area shown on this map westward from the heads of the  45 Mississippi, what's labelled as the heads of the  46 Mississippi, right out as far west as the map extends,  47 and from -- well, it would be about the 40th parallel 19772  Submission by Mr. Rush  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 anyhow, on this map one sees the label just beneath  2 the prominent label "parts unknown", "Great Tiguex"  3 which again refers back to Coronado, that whole area  4 from that parallel just above the label "Great Tiguex"  5 and indefinitely northward and westward from the  6 meridian, again just west of the label "heads of the  7 Mississippi", below that is unknown or was unknown  8 when this map was produced.  9 Now, let me qualify --  10 MR. RUSH:  I object to that, my lord.  11 THE COURT:  What do you mean, is unknown to the author, to the  12 mapmaker surely?  13 MR. RUSH:  Well, it I suppose is a conclusion that's equally  14 open to your lordship, based on what you see on the  15 map.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 MR. RUSH:  But I take objection to the witness referring to what  18 is unknown or not known in the minds of other  19 mapmakers.  And just while I'm on my feet, I should  20 say that in terms of the particular passage read by my  21 learned friend that led the witness into this, I  22 object to that passage composing any part of the  23 witness' evidence.  24 THE COURT:  Where was that?  25 MR. RUSH:  The top of 18.  2 6 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, the basis for the statement has already been  28 laid, my lord.  The map itself purports to pick up the  29 information available at the time.  30 MR. RUSH:  Well, I disagree with that, my lord.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, that's -- I'm just quoting what it purported  32 to mean.  33 MR. RUSH:  Well, the map purports to be what it is, and your  34 lordship has already indicated what you see, and I  35 think that the witness has commented on that.  In  36 terms of any other comments about cartographers of the  37 day, surely that is in respect of maps that have been  38 drawn to your lordship's attention and will be drawn  39 to your lordship's attention.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, if the witness wasn't able to — if the  41 witness was precluded from stating his opinions and  42 bringing to your lordship's attention certain facts,  43 all of that drawing above the words "parts unknown"  44 would be -- appear from this map to represent physical  45 features, and the witness' evidence is that it is  46 wholly fictional.  47 THE COURT:  I don't think there's any mystery about this.  What 19773  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 the witness is telling me is that, and has told me  2 previously, is that if cartographers know something in  3 an area included within the map they're drawing, they  4 show it, and that -- and also I take the witness to be  5 saying, although I don't think he said it with  6 particular emphasis, that he's not aware of anything  7 different from that.  That's really as far as it goes,  8 isn't it?  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Yes, that's correct, and that's the basis of  10 the statement that my friend refers to.  11 MR. RUSH:  No, it isn't.  I disagree, my lord.  That's not the  12 statement that is here referred to.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  I said it was the basis of the statement that my  14 friend objects to.  15 MR. RUSH:  In my submission, my lord, it's a very different  16 statement.  That's the very point that your lordship  17 has to decide.  That's your lordship's judgment and  18 not the witness'.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  20 THE COURT:  I think we all understand each other.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  22 Q   Now, you have stated what was incorporated in this map  23 from what you call the La Hontan fiction?  24 A   Yes.  25 MR. GOLDIE:   And then at the -- you continue on to make  26 reference to another Bowen map.  27 THE COURT:  Before you leave that one, any assumption you want  28 to make, doctor, as to the numbers to be ascribed to  29 these parallels of longitude, how close is the west  30 coast, the south-west coast, as shown in relation to  31 say the east coast?  Are you able to offer an opinion  32 on that?  33 THE WITNESS:   The distance across the continent?  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 THE WITNESS:   As represented on this map, my lord?  36 THE COURT:  Yes.  Are they close or is it out substantially?  37 THE WITNESS:   Out substantially from what a modern map would  38 show.  39 THE COURT:  Is it?  40 THE WITNESS:   Yes, because of the problem again with the  41 longitude.  42 THE COURT:  So that if we placed a modern map, the east coast of  43 a modern map, alongside the east coast shown here say  44 at this line showing the latitude just above "Great  45 Tiguex"?  46 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  47 THE COURT:  What would the distance to the west coast be, 19774  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 greater or smaller on --  2 THE WITNESS:  It would be greater on this map than on the modern  3 map.  4 THE COURT:  Greater?  5 THE WITNESS:   I think, my lord, if I may —  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 THE WITNESS:  -- draw your attention to the little base map  8 included with this appendix of maps, the base map  9 numbers map 13, and while it does not represent much  10 of Mexico or middle America, I think it shows enough  11 of the continent to make a comparison with the Bowen  12 map.  13 THE COURT:  Oh, that's right.  Oh, yes.  I'm sorry, what does  14 map 13 show in relation to the Bowen map?  15 THE WITNESS:   Well, map 13, my lord, is, although highly  16 generalized, and necessarily because of its scale, it  17 does show the co-ordinate positions as accurately as  18 the scale will allow for places along the coast.  And  19 if we compare what we see on the base map, map number  20 13, with what we see on the Bowen map, we see there's  21 considerable variation.  Now, that comment is not  22 intended to be critical of Bowen's efforts, but simply  23 that it was not possible for the cartographers of  24 Bowen's time to make a better representation for they  25 had great difficulty with the longitude.  Latitudinal  26 determination was somewhat easier.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  28 Q   Now, just so that I follow what you've been saying, if  29 we look at the so-called base map number 13, and we  30 follow the longitude which runs through or is near the  31 mouth of the Mississippi, is that the 90th --  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   -- degree of longitude?  34 A   Yes, we've got --  35 Q   There are values right up at the top.  36 A   Yes, that's right, the 90th meridian, and  37 interpolating between the numbers indicated here, 80,  38 so it would be a 10 degree graticule, 80.  The next  39 one unnumbered on the map would be 90, the next one  40 would be 100, and then the 110th is shown.  41 Q   Right.  Now, is it fair to go to the Bowen map and  42 identify the degree of longitude that runs close to  43 the mouth of the Mississippi as his 90?  Is that a  44 fair —  45 A   Excuse me, I'll have to check my reference here.  The  46 reason I say that is that he is using longitude east  47 from Ferro, at least I believe on this particular 19775  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Bowen it's east from Ferro, so one has to take the  2 reciprocal and then add in the factor of the  3 difference in longitude between London and Ferro to  4 convert this to the sort of meridians we see on the  5 base map.  In fact, we wouldn't add it, we'd subtract  6 it.  7 Q   Well, I'm probably compounding the confusion.  All I  8 was getting at was is the depiction of distance  9 between the parallels or the meridians the same,  10 intended to be the same on Bowen as it is on the base  11 map?  12 A   Oh, intended to be, indeed, yes.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  That's all I wanted to —  14 THE COURT:  Where is Ferro and how do you spell it?  15 THE WITNESS:   My lord, the spelling is F-e-r-r-o, and it is the  16 most westerly of the Madeira group of islands, the  17 Canary Islands off the course of North Africa.  That  18 would have been for many of the navigators the last  19 landfall before heading across the ocean.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  21 Q   Yes.  All right.  22 A   Sir, if I may make one more response in connection  23 with the Bowen map, I said a minute or two ago that  24 the information west of the meridian of just beyond  25 the -- what is shown as the heads of the Mississippi  26 on the Bowen map, the information was lacking.  We  27 should bear in mind that Kelsey of the Hudson's Bay  28 Company had travelled from the shore of Hudson Bay  29 from York factory I think it was down to the Plains of  30 Manitoba, and the Verendryes had travelled as far  31 as -- at least as far as the village of the Mandan  32 Indians where they wintered with the Indian people,  33 the Sioux people there.  34 Referring to Kelsey's narrative written in a sort  35 of doggerel verse, that information does not seem to  36 have reached the hands of European mapmakers.  And I  37 say it does not seem to have reached them because I  38 have found no map of this date that shows, or even  39 some years later, that shows the Kelsey information  40 and the same applies to the later exploration westward  41 by Henday.  Why that's the case I have some ideas, but  42 I think it would be inappropriate for me to state them  43 here.  44 As to the Verendryes, it's only by conjecture, my  45 lord, that we're able to get an idea of where his  46 travels or where their travels led them.  Latter day  47 scholars have done a good deal of work on this and we 19776  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 think we know, we do know from the narrative that he  2 did winter with the Mandan Indians, but where he got  3 beyond that we don't have much information about.  And  4 when I say information in this context I'm talking  5 about position.  It's one thing to prepare a narrative  6 and generally describe a country through which one  7 travels, but it's quite another to have information  8 that would fix a position in the accepted  9 co-ordinates.  10 MR. RUSH:  Perhaps Dr. Farley could express the sources of his  11 information for the latter comment.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, what -- there are a lot of comments in there.  13 MR. RUSH:  Just the one about Verendrye.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, there are a number of comments about  15 Verendrye.  16 THE COURT:  Well, where he wintered and what's the source of the  17 belief regarding Verendrye's wintering?  18 THE WITNESS:   I think, my lord, the Champlain Society has  19 published the narrative of the Verendryes, an edited  20 document, an edited version of the narrative.  I  21 cannot recall at the moment just what would be the  22 best authority, but I could provide that to the court  23 if I could be given a short time to look it up.  24 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   Is there anything further you want to say before we --  27 I ask that map 11 be marked as Exhibit 1149-11?  28 A   I think that's sufficient.  29 MR. GOLDIE:   I tender that, my lord, as Exhibit 1149-11.  3 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  31  32 (EXHIBIT 1149-11: Map, Author Bowen).  33 MR. GOLDIE:  34 Q   Then we come to what you described as another Bowen  35 map entitled "An accurate map of North America" which  36 is a large scale map and one part of which is found  37 under map 12, part 1?  38 A   Yes.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, my lord, we have a colour photograph of this  40 one that is certified by the public records office in  41 the United Kingdom and it is a map to which Dr.  42 Greenwood will refer.  I think for the purposes of Dr.  43 Farley the reproduction which is found in his folio  44 will be sufficient, but I inform your lordship that  45 the colour version is here and it will be referred to  46 as such by Dr. Greenwood.  47 MR. RUSH:  Do you have an extra copy of that? 19777  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  No, just the photograph was made in England and  2 that's the only copy we have.  3 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  5 Q   Would you tell his lordship something about this map?  6 A   Yes.  I've noted in appendix A that because of its  7 large scale, comparatively large scale, more  8 information could be placed upon it, that is, there  9 was room, physically room, for more information than  10 was possible on the smaller scale Bowen that we've  11 just finished examining.  I think that there are  12 sufficient differences between this larger scale  13 Bowen, map 12, and the preceding Bowen map 11,  14 sufficient differences to deserve their treatment as  15 separate entities rather than, in other words, using  16 one Bowen map that might suffice.  17 Once again we see that by this date, that is, the  18 date of the map being 1763, a considerable amount of  19 information was available to cartographers for the  20 area around the Great Lakes and for the New England  21 colonies, and there was the beginnings of information  22 or representation of the available information for the  23 area west of the Mississippi.  But those are mere  24 beginnings, and much information had yet to be  25 gathered before a more adequate representation could  2 6 be made.  27 We see if we look at the Mississippi River, for  28 example, that a headwater lake is shown -- well, at  29 least a lake, one of the headwaters for the  30 Mississippi is shown, and I believe it reads, although  31 it's somewhat indistinct on the print, I believe it  32 reads "L. Mississaugan or Buade", and that's the same  33 designation that appeared on one of the earlier maps  34 we looked at, and that information stems from early  35 Jesuit or possibly Sulpician missionary travels.  36 THE COURT:  That doesn't show on this map does it?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  It's in part 2.  38 THE COURT:  Should I be looking at part 2?  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   I'm sorry, the next -- it's map 12, part 2, which is  41 that part of the Bowen map which shows the  42 Mississippi; is that correct, Doctor?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. GOLDIE:   Now —  45 THE COURT:  Where do I find this?  46 MR. GOLDIE:  If your lordship would look up at the top of the  47 map there's a dotted line, the southern boundary of 1977?  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Hudson's Bay Company territories.  2 THE COURT:  If I can just be shown —  3 THE WITNESS:   This is the Lake Mississaugan or Buade, and so if  4 we look at the outer graticule --  5 THE COURT:  7.5?  6 THE WITNESS:   Yes, about 77.  7 MR. RUSH:  I think your lordship should read the note that's  8 appended to the line of the Mississippi.  It's on the  9 side of that conjunction with Dr. Farley's evidence.  10 THE COURT:  On the side of the river?  11 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  12 THE COURT:  Can you read what it says?  13 MR. RUSH:  Yes, it says "Mississippi River.  Its head very  14 uncertain. Situated according to the" something "in a  15 very marshy country about the 50th dry" --  16 MR. GOLDIE:  Degree.  17 MR. RUSH:  "degree of" —  18 THE COURT:  Where do you see that, Mr. Rush?  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Go directly to your left of the lake, my lord,  20 three --  21 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, I see.  Yes.  Yes.  22 THE WITNESS:   My lord, if I may, I can read the statement.  I  23 realize it's somewhat indistinct on this reproduction.  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 THE WITNESS:   It reads "Mississippi" and in this case the  26 spelling is with s-i-p-i.  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28 THE WITNESS:   "R.. Its head very uncertain.  Situated according  29 to the Indians in a very marshy country about the 50th  30 degree of latitude."  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   Is the distortion of the western area as pronounced in  33 this map as it was in the other Bowen map that we  34 looked at?  35 A   I think I could answer that as a qualified yes.  I  36 have not made a particular comparison of the  37 representation of the north-western part of this map  38 with the smaller scale one.  One of the reasons for  39 that is that it's rather difficult to make -- well,  40 there are certain hazards when one changes scale  41 drastically, as is the case here in making those  42 comparisons, because what may be eliminated in the  43 normal process of generalization for the smaller scale  44 map, possibly could be included here.  So I would say  45 the fact that this map has the scale to present what  46 detail there was, probably makes it a better map with  47 reference to -- well, the headwater of the Mississippi 19779  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 or the area from the upper Mississippi down to, let's  2 say, the confluence with the Ohio River, which is the  3 large river we see shown on this map draining from the  4 east, south of Lake Erie, and draining by a rather  5 serpentine course to the Mississippi.  6 Q   And the river which is upstream of that above the  7 words "Great Meadows" to the left of the Mississippi,  8 Moingona, is that the Des Moins River that you  9 identified?  10 A   Yes.  The Moingona is the -- what we would recognize  11 today on the maps as the Des Moins River.  12 THE COURT:  Where do you see that?  13 THE WITNESS:   My lord, I think the easiest way to find it is if  14 one looks at the inset map in the upper left part and  15 then looks at the bottom margin of that map and  16 projects the line, visually project the line eastward  17 to the Mississippi River, and you will see there a  18 river and there is a name Moingona, M-o-i-n-g-o-n-a.  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 THE WITNESS:   So that would be the latter day Des Moins River.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  I tender my lord the portion of the Bowen map which  22 has in it the western -- the eastern shore or eastern  23 coast line of North America and the identification of  24 the Atlantic as Western or Atlantic Ocean as Exhibit  25 1149-12, part 1, and that part of the Bowen map which  26 is -- shows the Mississippi and the Gulf of Mexico and  27 part of the western and eastern coasts, as 1149-12,  28 part 2.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30  31 (EXHIBIT 1149-12-1:  Bowen map showing east coastline  32 of N. America and ID of Atlantic Ocean)  33  34 (EXHIBIT 1149-12-2: Bowen map showing Mississippi,  35 Gulf of Mexico and part of western and eastern coasts)  36  37 MR. GOLDIE:  38 Q   Now, Doctor, in the next section of your report  39 beginning at page 19 under the title "Interpreting the  40 maps - Perceptions of the American Interior circa  41 1763", would you summarize what you've stated there  42 until you come to the next heading on page 20, the  43 Mississippi River?  44 A   Yes.  What I attempted to do in this short  45 introduction to the section was to again try to set  46 the stage to suggest some of the difficulties that the  47 early explorers and observers were up against when 19780  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 trying to establish their location, and to record  2 information about the landscape that would be useful  3 to cartographers in compiling maps.  4 THE COURT:  And what page of the report are you on?  5 THE WITNESS:   At page 19, my lord.  6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Yes.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  8 Q   And do I understand it from there that the most  9 accurate location of positions would be on the sea  10 coasts?  11 A   Yes, that is correct, and for the reason, very good  12 reason, and that is that the sea coast is more easily  13 observed.  One can see headlands and prominent  14 embayments and that kind of thing, and it's just the  15 sighting from one point to another makes the recording  16 of position and the resultant mapping much more  17 readily accomplished.  There are great difficulties,  18 but by comparison with trying to sight through thick  19 bush and trying to triangulate, it's much easier.  And  20 secondly, there were a number of vessels that  21 travelled to the coast by this stage.  There was a  22 prominent trade, as we're well aware, between the New  23 England colonies and between the French colonies in  24 the old world, so that there were relatively speaking  25 frequent sightings of prominent headlands and that  26 kind of thing, so that positions were being refined.  27 And so, again, by comparison with the interior, the  28 coast is much more easily rendered.  29 Q   And your conclusion is stated at the bottom of page 19  30 that "for most of the interior, any cartographic  31 attempt to represent the regional landscape in  32 anything but a crude and highly tentative form was  33 essentially conjectural."  34 That's your conclusion?  35 A   That's my conclusion.  36 Q   All right.  Doctor, you have made reference to the  37 generalized base map of North America which is map 13?  38 A   Yes.  39 MR. GOLDIE:   And without going into further detail, I would  40 ask, my lord, that that be marked as 1149-13.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 1149-13:  Base map, anonymous author)  44  45 MR. GOLDIE:  46 Q   Now, return to another section where you discussed the  47 Mississippi River, and I wonder if you would state -- 19781  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 well, firstly what have you done in this section  2 between pages 20 and 24?  3 A  What I did, sir, was to compare the different maps,  4 compare the portrayals in the different maps, and to  5 simplify that comparison I made a tabulation which  6 appears in appendix A on page 23, bottom, beginning  7 the lower portion of page 23.  And I've said, "As an  8 aid to comparison of various 18th century maps of  9 North America, the following tabulation may be  10 helpful."  So I have the date of the map publication,  11 the name of the cartographer, the map title, and then  12 as I've said the source of the most northerly  13 tributary of the Mississippi River as mapped.  14 Now, this it seems to me is a good way of  15 comparing different maps and the quality of mapping  16 for an inland area that is relatively easily  17 identified.  I have said at the top of the right-hand  18 column of that table, once again, the source of the  19 most northerly tributary of the Mississippi River as  2 0 mapped.  21 Q   Now, when you say "as mapped", you're talking about as  22 mapped in the maps that are then listed?  23 A   Yes, but I have put in an asterisk at the end of that  24 statement and the interpretation of what the asterisk  25 is given on page 24, just at the end of the  26 tabulation, and it says: "In this tabulation  27 longitudes have been converted to London equivalents".  28 And the purpose for that is to make it standard for my  29 own purposes and, secondly, for anyone reading these  30 maps to recognize that there were different meridians  31 chosen by different cartographers around the middle of  32 the 18th century.  So I've said here Paris lies  33 approximately 2 degrees east of London, and Hierro or  34 Ferro is 18 degrees west of London.  So one can make  35 the conversion.  36 Q   Now, the map numbers, your lordship may wish to make a  37 note of the map numbers in the folio which the first  38 one De L'isle is map number 8.  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Bellin, which we have yet to see, is number 14; Popple  41 is 9; Mitchell is 10; the first Bowen is 11; the  42 second Bowen is 12; the Jefferys' Bowen map is 16,  43 which we have yet to see; and the Jefferys' map is 4.  44 Now, did you also plot on a visual aid the  45 location of the headwaters of the Mississippi from  46 these maps or some of them I should say?  47 A   I did that, sir, and I should like to refer to them if 19782  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 I may.  2 MR. GOLDIE:   Thank you.  3 MR. RUSH:  I intend to object to this, my lord.  4 THE COURT:  Well, should we deal with that first?  5 MR. GOLDIE:  I suppose we better, my lord, but perhaps I might  6 ask the witness to state what he has had done and then  7 my --  8 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, Doctor, you've placed on the easel there  10 something called the "Upper Mississippi".  Would you  11 tell his lordship what it purports to show and what  12 you did in relation to it?  13 MR. RUSH:  Well, perhaps he should explain what he did, my lord.  14 What it purports to show is what I object to.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'm just thinking of the identification of  16 it, my lord, that's all.  Doctor, go ahead and tell  17 his lordship what you --  18 THE COURT:  But without reference to the document.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  20 Q   Yes.  Just describe how it how it came into being.  21 A   Yes, as I think I mentioned a moment ago, it seemed to  22 me convenient to choose some point in the interior  23 information about which was at the time rather  24 limited, very limited indeed, and to compare how the  25 different cartographers of the time represented the  26 headwaters of the Mississippi or the sources of the  27 Mississippi.  And I thought as one point, since it's  28 necessary in these sorts of comparisons, at least I  29 found it necessary to choose one point, I took the  30 most northerly point of the most northerly tributary  31 shown on the particular map as draining to the  32 Mississippi.  I then had a base map prepared for the  33 purposes of displaying this information to the court.  34 I had a base map prepared that is drawn from  35 contemporary maps of considerably larger scale than  36 the card on which the information is shown, but drawn  37 from contemporary maps from the best authorities,  38 namely, the main government mapping agencies, United  39 States Geological Survey on the one hand, and the  40 Mines and Tech Survey of Ottawa on the other, or  41 Canada I should say on the other.  42 I then took co-ordinate positions from each of the  43 early maps in turn, that is, the set of early maps  44 that I was trying to compare.  I took co-ordinate  45 positions for that most northerly point on the most  46 northerly headwater and also took the co-ordinate  47 positions for a number of other points along the 19783  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH:  A. L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  Submission by Mr. Rush  stream course nearby so that I could then convey that  information, that is, the information concerning the  co-ordinate positions and their linkage, by means of  lines representing streams, convey those to overlay  sheets so that a representation, let us say by  Mitchell, could be compared to a representation by  Bowen, and so on.  And I took French maps as among the  authorities and English maps of the time also among  those authorities.  So I --  Q   These co-ordinates of the most northerly tributary of  the Mississippi and the particular maps that you have  selected are amongst the values that are given on  pages 23 and 24 of your report?  Yes.  And those are your calculations?  Yes.  And the calculations that you have just described are  your calculations?  Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:   Yes.  THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Rush.  The objection is twofold, my lord.  I received or saw  for the first time yesterday this map and the  overlays, and I have heard for the first time today  what the witness has done with them.  These were  obviously not made overnight.  I haven't had an  opportunity of doing very little more than analysing  them myself.  They certainly -- I certainly haven't  had an opportunity of taking the advice of a skilled  cartographer to determine if what Dr. Farley says is  so or not so.  The first point is that under Rule 40 (10) in  order for a document of this kind to be admitted into  evidence, an opportunity to inspect the document must  be given at least seven days before the commencement  of the trial.  Now, I wouldn't have expected seven  days before the commencement of the trial, but seven  days before Dr. Farley's evidence would have been very  satisfactory.  I've had no opportunity really to  inspect it, which I mean to take some professional  advice with regard to it, and so that leaves me in the  position of having to accept whatever Dr. Farley says  about this map on its face.  But what I was able to determine, and this comes  to my second point, about this on a visual  observation, and I think it will seem apparent to your  lordship just by a perusal of these -- of four 19784  Submission by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  overlays and the maps that you've now seen, is that in  fact what you have here is a representation of one  topographic feature taken from the maps.  :  Yes.  Out of position with the other topographic features  on those same maps.  Now, that is a gross distortion of the  representation of those features as they appeared in  their original form on those maps and, in my  submission, the best evidence here are those maps.  And my learned friend and I can make in our argument  what we will about the relative distances and  relationships from the one particular topographic  feature that's demonstrated on this map as against the  other topographic features relation to relation, one  to the other.  The fact of the matter is that what  this does is to set that one feature against present  day knowledge with utterly no relationship to the  other existing topographic features shown on those  other maps, and I think for that reason it is  extremely distorted.  And what I say, my lord, is that  the witness apparently has gone to great efforts in  his mind to assist the court with regard to a  comparison of various maps, and he's directed your  attention to a table that he's constructed on pages 23  and 24, and it seems to me that this so-called visual  representation with its deficiencies as I say exist on  it is certainly no better than what appears to be the  case of his table that is set out on those -- on pages  23 and 24, and for those reasons I think that there is  no reason that your lordship should have what I think  is essentially a document that will be of very little  assistance to you when you have the better maps in  front of you as well as Dr. Farley's comparisons of  them.  And so for those reasons I say that it ought not  to be put to the witness.  The witness can give his  evidence without it and it ought not to be made, and I  think behind this is my friend's interest in tendering  this as an exhibit.  I don't think it should be  tendered as an exhibit or used as an aide-memoire.  :  Well, does it show anything different, except in a  different way, the information that's on the chart on  pages 23 and 24?  It most certainly does.  It has the disadvantage of  selecting only four of those particular entries and  portraying those.  It ignores the other four. 19785  Submission by Mr. Macaulay  1 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay?  2 MR. MACAULAY: Insofar as the rule is concerned, the rule that  3 Mr. Rush evokes, his remedy I think would be to, if he  4 insists on that, to put off his cross-examination on  5 that point only for a period of seven days, if that's  6 what's needed.  It seems to me though that Mr. Rush,  7 and I'm not surprised at that, has been able to grasp  8 the ramifications of that map pretty fast.  I have --  9 the other point is simply this, as I understand it,  10 that it's different from some of the figures contained  11 in pages 23 and 24 in that it might mislead the court  12 by placing Lake Superior in a position that it -- in a  13 single position rather than in a variety of positions  14 and that that gives -- well, it distorts, gives a  15 visual distortion.  That may be so, although I don't  16 think that your lordship is going to be misled by that  17 distortion.  Every map has a distortion.  I don't see  18 that my friend Mr. Rush is particularly prejudiced by  19 this one.  Those are the only submissions I have to  2 0 make.  21 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  I'll hear you after the  22 afternoon adjournment, Mr. Goldie.  23 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned for a  24 short recess.  25  2 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  27  28 I hereby certify the foregoing to  29 be a true and accurate transcript  30 of the proceedings herein to the  31 best of my skill and ability.  32  33  34 Tanita S. French  35 Official Reporter  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 19786  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, I have one more submission to make about  5 this sketch.  I think that's the thing my friend Mr.  6 Rush is most concerned about.  If the base map were  7 only the co-ordinates, the lines of longitude and  8 latitude which the witness has taken the parallel and  9 made it uniform, made certain calculations to show  10 them all then there would be, I submit, no difficulty  11 at all.  This would be merely a diagram of the kind  12 that its courts receive in evidence all the time.  In  13 that case the rule my friend Mr. Rush relies on would  14 not apply.  15 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, perhaps just before Mr. Goldie  16 responds I should say that in order -- he could  17 respond to this point as well that if as Mr. Macaulay  18 suggests that it is simply the application of the  19 witness's intelligence to this overlay system then I  20 think it constitutes itself as separate opinion.  And  21 as a separate opinion the requisite notice and the  22 requisite production of time and examination of it of  23 course haven't occurred.  24 THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Rush, I must be missing something.  But as  25 I understand at the moment the impugn item, the  26 overlays, does no more than transfer onto a base map  27 the four locations for the most northerly tributary on  28 the Mississippi in pictoral form.  It discloses some  29 of the information which is specifically stated on  30 pages 23 and 24 of the report.  I am not able to grasp  31 what the difficulty is.  It is accepted in the  32 theoretical sense that when a person transfers  33 information from one medium to another there is some  34 skill involved.  But it is disclosing what I take to  35 be a fact, that is where is this tributary shown on  36 four different maps in relation to a base map of  37 modern vintage.  38 Now, it may be that in argument or in  39 cross-examination that can be shown not to be useful.  40 But I am not able to understand what the difficulty  41 with it is.  It doesn't seem to be something that  42 notice need be given because it is in the report.  And  43 while it is unfortunate that the actual document  44 wasn't exchanged for investigation, I am not persuaded  45 that that's a serious problem in something as  46 relatively straightforward as this one is.  47 Now, that's the view that I have at the moment and 19787  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 if I have missed something I would be glad to know  2 what it is that I am missing.  I appreciate your  3 argument that there may be distortions, but those  4 things happen all the time.  I can make those kinds of  5 adjustments, or they can be pointed out in argument  6 and relied upon.  If it ever gets to that, I would be  7 surprised that this looms very large at the argument  8 stage.  But it seems to me that all it is doing is  9 giving me a better understanding of where those  10 tributaries are.  Because I could probably with some  11 difficulty and perhaps a higher probability of error  12 transfer these northern tributaries from those maps on  13 the base map myself.  Why shouldn't I have the  14 assistance of someone who can do it professionally?  15 If I have missed it please help me because I don't  16 understand why there should be so much difficulty with  17 something that seems to be relatively straightforward.  18 MR. RUSH:  Well, it isn't relatively straightforward if the one  19 topical feature is taken out of relationship with the  20 other features.  21 THE COURT:  Well, that is an infirmity of any attempt to reduce  22 something down to a more manageable size.  23 MR. RUSH:  No, my lord, I don't think so.  Because I think it is  24 evident from the witness's own evidence that the state  25 of knowledge about these things was uncertain at the  26 time.  It varied from cartographer to cartographer.  27 And the Mississippi River itself was out of whack with  28 other geographic features that are shown to exist on  29 the map.  And really what you need to assist you are  30 the maps because they really show what in the minds of  31 the individuals at the time who are making these maps  32 thought the relationship of the one feature was to the  33 others.  34 Now, if they are all out of whack you should see  35 them out of whack.  What this shows is it shows them  36 all in whack with present-day knowledge.  I say that  37 that really can't help you very much because  38 ultimately you're driven back to an understanding of  39 where the headwaters, the most northerly point of  40 those, is demonstrated on the maps.  Because you've  41 got to see them in relation to where, for example,  42 they place the Hudson's Bay and where they placed Lake  43 Superior.  And it is quite evident, for example, one  44 of the maps -- well, I don't know if that was one of  45 the ones referred to.  46 My lord, the maps themselves are in relation to --  47 for example, Map 9 the Popple map in relation to Lake 197?  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Superior which itself is not -- is not in the place of  Lake Superior and the other points of topographic  feature that would appear on a present-day map.  So  for you to appreciate where it is -- where the  northerly most point is in terms of its co-ordinates  you have to see it in relation to that position of  Lake Superior because it makes no sense to see it in  relation to this one.  THE COURT:  Well, I'm sorry, but it does seem to me to make some  sense because the witness has said that by a certain  date knowledge of the area west of the Great Lakes,  including the Great Lakes, was far more advanced than  it was further west.  So the other areas may be  accurately located and they may not.  But that seems  to me to be a matter of cross-examination that the  effect of this might be moderated by showing that  these tributaries are out of place, but something else  is in place.  I can understand how that might be of  some assistance.  But that seems to me a matter of  cross-examination.  Not that I should not because it  doesn't tell me the whole story be deprived of  whatever assistance it can give me.  MR. RUSH:  But I suppose my argument really comes back to the  best evidence argument, and that is that that is not  the best evidence.  It is a distortion of what the  best evidence is.  THE COURT:  We have the best evidence which is the maps.  MR. RUSH:  Correct.  THE COURT:  So we already have that.  And all that the witness  is now going to show me, I gather, is where some of  the maps placed the most northerly tributary of the  Mississippi.  Now, it may be that that's a non-starter  in the overall scheme of things.  But I am not in a  position to make that assessment now, surely.  MR. RUSH:  I am not asking you to.  I simply say that I think  that your -- my lord, despite all of the deficiencies  which I might attribute to Mr. Macaulay's maps, they  are at least, relatively speaking, a lot closer in  relationship than this map is in relation to the --  THE COURT:  This may be the worst map in the world.  I don't  suggest it is or it isn't.  But I am not sure that --  I don't see any objection to its admissibility as an  aid to understanding these larger maps.  Now, if I  take your argument to its logical conclusion, it would  be to say that nothing can be taken off these maps for  the purpose of illustrating a point.  You have got to  always look at the whole map.  That doesn't seem to me 19789  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 to be right.  2 MR. RUSH:  Well, in my submission, my lord, I think that it's  3 erroneous to place a topographic feature out of its  4 context, and that's what really what happened here.  5 The value to your lordship is such a minimal probative  6 value.  And, my lord, I suspect that much will be made  7 out of this despite your lordship's hesitation on the  8 subject.  But, in my submission, it's simply  9 distorting your understanding of what is better  10 portrayed in the maps in the folio.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Rush, I am not with  12 you on this point.  I am anxious to have all the help  13 I can.  If it leads to greater distortion and more  14 misunderstanding, I am sure that will be made  15 abundantly clear on cross-examination or in argument.  16 Go ahead, Mr. Goldie.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  18 THE COURT:  I changed my position in the atlas.  Should I be at  19 some particular location?  20 MR. GOLDIE:  We don't need the atlas right now.  21 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  23 Q   The report at pages 23 and 24, I have some questions  24 that relate to that.  Now, Dr. Farley, the first point  25 with respect to this visual aid entitled Upper  26 Mississippi.  Is the actual headwater of the  27 Mississippi as determined by reference to the  28 co-ordinates that you gave to his lordship at noon  29 shown on the base map or the underlying map?  30 A   Yes, it is.  Lake Itasca would be on --  31 Q   Well, perhaps you might take the overlays offer.  32 A   Thank you.  Lake Itasca would be in this location on  33 the base map, my lord.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  36 Q   That corresponds to the co-ordinates that you gave his  37 lordship?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   All right.  Now, my next question is you have selected  40 four.  What was the reason for selecting four rather  41 than the total number which you've shown in pages 23  42 and 24?  43 A   Simply put, it would be exceedingly difficult, and I'm  44 not sure there would be much purpose to making  45 overlays for all the maps listed in that tabulation in  46 Appendix A.  The whole purpose in making this visual  47 presentation was to make it, I thought, easier for the 19790  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 court to appreciate what the different cartographers  2 thought about the location of the headwaters of the  3 Mississippi expressed in something that we can all  4 understand, and that is co-ordinate position, X Y  5 co-ordinate position.  So I chose four maps which  6 would be about the limit of what is generally  7 considered by cartographers easily read materials for  8 overlays plus the base map to illustrate that.  9 As to -- well, I was going to say as to relevance  10 to other features on the map, it seems to me that if  11 one took this to the limit one would simply make on  12 the overlay a replica of each of the respective maps,  13 original maps, and there would be no point to that.  14 So what I tried to do was to focus attention on one  15 specific thing.  And the co-ordinate position for that  16 thing as represented by the different map-makers.  So  17 I took a French map, the two Bowen maps recently  18 referred to in the appendix, and I think the Popple  19 map, if memory serves me correctly.  20 Q   All right.  Well, now would you start with whatever  21 overlay you want to start with perhaps  22 chronologically.  23 A   Yes.  So, my lord, shown in the coloured line on this,  24 that is the non-blue line, this would be the Bowen map  25 of 1763.  This is the map that appears in the appendix  26 or the photo of maps as map 11.  That is the smaller  27 scale Bowen map.  This is the representation of that  28 most northerly headwater and adjacent parts of the  29 upper Mississippi and the configuration of the stream  30 as he perceived it and portrayed it on his map.  31 THE COURT:  The heavy brown mark is the Mississippi itself?  32 THE WITNESS:  Yes, this would be the Mississippi River.  I  33 believe the label on that map shows -- has the phrase  34 Heads of the Mississippi shown here.  35 THE COURT:  So this would be the Mississippi, and this would be  36 the northerly tributary?  37 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  38 THE COURT:  All right.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   Now, if I understand what you've done, you've plotted  41 the co-ordinates?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Of not only the headwaters, the most northerly point  44 of the headwaters of the Mississippi, but also you  45 plotted points along the course of the Mississippi  46 itself?  47 A   Yes.  I selected a few points, enough for me to draw 19791  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 on a map or to take -- how do I put this, to  2 transform.  This is really a process that could be  3 done mathematically.  But it would be a tremendous  4 undertaking to digitize all the earlier maps.  So what  5 I have done is I have computed positions, transferred  6 those co-ordinate positions to my base, and then you  7 might say eyeballed in from the other map.  And as I  8 say there is some precision to do this.  9 Q   Let us have the next Bowen map, please, which would be  10 1763.  11 A  My lord, on this overlay we see this is the Bowen map  12 12, that is number 12 in the folio of maps  13 accompanying my appendix.  The representation is shown  14 here in this purple colouration.  15 THE COURT:  The purple river running in from the left is the  16 Missouri or the Mississippi?  17 THE WITNESS:  Mississippi.  18 THE COURT:  Mississippi?  19 THE WITNESS:  Mississippi, my lord.  2 0 THE COURT:  What is the name from the north?  21 THE WITNESS:  This would be Lake Buade or -- excuse me, my lord,  22 the name -- it is a name I referred to earlier.  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  24 THE WITNESS:  But Buade is one of the names.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   I'm showing you map 12, part 2.  Would you identify by  27 reference to the name of the lake that you're --  28 A   This would be it, Lake Mississauga or Buade.  2 9 Q   Go ahead.  30 A  Well, on this map again the statements reads:  31  32 "Mississippi or its heads very uncertain  33 situated according to the Indians in a  34 very marshy country above the 50 degree  35 of latitude."  36  37 Q   That's an inscription that goes along just on the  38 left-hand side?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Thank you.  Would you put up the 1755 one, Mitchell.  41 We are going backwards in time.  42 A   That's Bellin.  43 Q   Which one is that?  44 A   That is Bellin of 1755.  And on this overlay, my lord,  45 Bellin's representation is shown as you can see in  46 this green colouration.  We can overlay that on the  47 other two, and on the base you may be able to see the 19792  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 co-ordinates position to make sure that the overlay is  2 correct.  And one can see that there is a very  3 considerable degree of variation as to what the  4 cartographers of the time thought about the upper  5 Mississippi River, the headwater area of the  6 Mississippi River.  7 THE COURT:  What is this blue on your base map?  8 THE WITNESS:  That is a reservoir, my lord.  Since the base map  9 was taken from a contemporary map these things get  10 into the system.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  12 MR. RUSH:  It might be helpful to know this green body, my lord.  13 THE WITNESS:  On the Bellin map, Map 14 in the photo.  Excuse  14 me, my lord.  There is no name given on this, but  15 there is a label Riv des Mantons, M-A-N-T-O-N-S.  Riv  16 presumably is an abbreviation for river.   And it is  17 that representation on the Bellin map that shows the  18 stream to be not connected with the -- sorry, it is  19 detached in part from the headwater of the  20 Mississippi.  21 THE COURT:  Can I see that again, please?  22 THE WITNESS:  The Mantons, that's this one.  What we have done  23 is simply to show the direction, otherwise this would  24 be left hanging.  So the direction of flow to the  25 Mississippi is shown.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  27 Q   All right.  The Popple map.  28 A   This, my lord, is shown in the orange colour.  This is  29 the 1733 map by Henry Popple to which reference was  30 made earlier in today's testimony.  Mr. Popple  31 considers the Mississippi to arise here in this  32 relative position on the map and to flow in that  33 direction.  So essentially what this is intended to  34 do, my lord, is again to give graphic portrayal to the  35 state of confusion that existed among cartographers at  36 the time concerning that representation.  They simply  37 did not know the co-ordinates of the headwaters of the  38 Mississippi River or, indeed, the adjacent areas.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   My lord, I tender that -- I will be tendering that as  41 an exhibit, but I would like to complete some of the  42 maps in that because we referred to Bellin now.  I  43 would like to go to that.  It is the Map 14, I  44 believe, is that correct, Doctor, the Bellin map?  45 A   Yes, the Bellin map, this is Nicholas Bellin, 1755.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  And what can you -- you made some reference to --  47 MR. RUSH:  My lord, that is already Exhibit 1027-29. 19793  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  THE  COURT:  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  THE  COURT:  4  MR.  RUSH:  5  THE  COURT:  6  MR.  GOLDIE  7  Q  8  A  9  1  10  11  ]  12  13  14  i  15  16  17  ]  18  19  20  21  22  ]  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  1  35  36  ]  37  1  38  1  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  A  46  47  What is it, 1027?  29.  Whose evidence was that?  Mr. Morrison.  Thank you.  Can you tell us a little something about Bellin?  Yes, briefly.  Bellin at one time headed the it  department of cartography or the division of  cartography in the Ministry for the Navy in Paris,  Ministere de la Marine.  I think the translation of  that would be Ministry of the Navy in Paris.  Anyway,  he headed the cartography section, was an engineer, a  distinguished man.  He is regarded by at least some  contemporary scholars as the man who has produced the  finest maps of his time for North America, that is the  middle of the 18th century.  The Bellin maps are  considered by R. Cole Harris, among others, as the  best map products.  The best in the sense of the skill  of execution, and best in the sense of the  representation of the available information to the  map-makers at that time.  Well, even with that commendation, has he got anything  on his map which is -- matches the fictions which you  have identified on other maps?  Yes.  Despite his skill and care he has a statement on  the map toward the western portion, south westerly  portion in an otherwise blank area he says:  One could  place here the provinces of -- one might place here  the provinces of Quivira and Tegouaio of which no one  knows for certain --  Well, we could say in a very liberal translation  no one knows for certain.  And again those two names  Quivira and Tegouaio stems from the Cornado (phonetic)  explorations of a much earlier time.  Then also on the  map if we look to the westerly portion in the 50th  degree of latitude we see The Sea of the West, "La Mer  de L'Ouest."  And then the note: One does not have  information.  No one knows of these parts.  "On n'a aucune Connoissance de ces Parties?"  Yes.  Well, I would say that one does not have information  about these parts.  I don't dispute that translation.  And then north of that in larger type the note, No one  knows if these -- these parts are land or sea. 19794  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 "On ignore si dans cette Partie ce sont des Terres  2 ou la Mer."  3  4 Q   And then over to the -- proceeding to the northeast  5 there is a statement that:  These parts are entirely  6 unknown?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And that's somewhere to the west of Hudson's Bay  9 Company -- Hudson's Bay.  10 A  And then on the map below -- on this map we can say  11 that there is a representation of Lakes Winnipeg and  12 Manitoba and Winnipegosis.  And they are shown as Lac  13 Bourbon, Lac Ouinnipique or Ouinipigon.  14 Q   Yes.  15 A  And two prominent lakes shown there.  Well, actually  16 three, but there two larger ones.  That stems again  17 from the travels of Verendrye and Niverville.  The  18 date of this map again is 1755.  And by that date  19 Niverville had travelled westward to -- well, we are  20 not sure quite where.  But we believe somewhere out in  21 the plains of Alberta, the southern plains of Alberta.  22 Once again, there is no information of which I am  23 aware concerning the travels of Niverville that  24 provide details as to co-ordinate positions of  25 different points and the landscape.  So what we see  26 here in the representation of the Great Lakes of the  27 Prairies is -- stems from early French exploration  28 that is true.  But it also stems from information that  29 was gleened in communication with the native people.  30 Q   Now, if you go down the river which flows into or out  31 of something called Lac Rouge.  Do you see that?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And through Lac Rouge is a very faint dotted line.  34 What does that purport to be?  35 A   That purports to represent the height of land.  I  36 think the label is on that line a little hard to read.  37 Just south and slightly west of the southern boundary  38 of Lake Winnipeg.  39 Q   Yes.  40 A  We say, "Hauteur des Terras?"  41 Q   Yes.  42 A  And that would mean, of course, the height of land.  43 And that line, that dotted line is shown to cross Lac  44 Rouge which is rather remarkable.  Anyway, shown to  45 cross that lake and proceed northward and around Lake  46 Superior.  47 THE COURT:  Are you able to read the notations on the extreme 19795  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 northwest coast?  2 THE WITNESS:  I'll try, my lord.  If I may, I will just get my  3 little hand glass.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  We see two labels there.  the first one I  6 have great difficulty in translating.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  8 Q   See if this is any better.  9 A   Thank you.  One doesn't know if these are islands or  10 the continent.  So there is -- and then the label  11 immediately to the right of that reads:  12  13 "Terres Decouvertas par les Russes en 1741 Sans y  14 avoir..."  15  16 I can't read the next word.  17  18 "...aborde."  19  20 Well, without attempting to further fracture the  21 French language, my lord, the first statement that I  22 attempted to translate means that, as I interpret it,  23 that no one knows whether these are islands or part of  24 the continent.  Then the reference in the right-hand  25 label is to the discoveries by the Russians under  26 Bering and Chirikov.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  In this sequence, my lord, I tender  28 this as Exhibit 1149-14.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30  31 (EXHIBIT 1149-14:  Map, Author Bellin dated 1755)  32  33 MR. GOLDIE:  34 Q   Now, just before we leave this, though, Doctor, you  35 told his lordship that when you made up the overlay  36 that you take the co-ordinates of the northernmost  37 tributary from Bellin's map, you put on the river "des  38 Mantan".  39 A   No, I did not put on the Mantan River.  On the  40 overlay, my lord, there is a stream flowing from a  41 small lake shown on that overlay south and west of Lac  42 Rouge.  There is no name given to that lake, but it  43 says "Sources de Mississippi."  44 THE COURT:  Where is that?  45 THE WITNESS:  That is immediately.  46 THE COURT:  No, on this one, please.  Where does it say that?  47 THE WITNESS:  On this, my lord.  I think it will be clearer on 19796  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 this copy.  What we are dealing with, my lord, is this  2 label.  3 THE COURT:  Down here?  4 THE WITNESS:  Yes, "Sources de Mississippi."  5 THE COURT:  Below Lac Rouge?  6 THE WITNESS:  Immediately below Lac Rouge, my lord.  7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  9 Q   And that's what you have plotted on the overlay?  10 A   Yes.  There is another body of water, a stream and a  11 lake, an unnamed lake off to the west.  But that seems  12 to be just connected with the Mississippi.  I am not  13 clear on how Bellin came to interpret information in  14 that form.  15 THE COURT:  It looks like a much larger river running through  16 Lac Rouge and continuing southward.  17 THE WITNESS:  Yes, my lord.  And there is also on that larger —  18 the heavier line representing a larger river, a  19 direction al arrow just -- just what would be north  20 and east of the confluence of the small stream of the  21 labels "Sources de Mississippi", the directional arrow  22 showing the flow from Lac Rouge.  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  25 Q   Well, if the height of land has its usual effect,  26 there seem to be streams flowing in opposite  27 directions from Lac Rouge; is that right?  2 8          A   That's what the map shows.  29 Q   Yes, all right.  There is a reference to Map 16.  What  30 is the -- you make reference to that -- I'm sorry, we  31 have skipped over map 15 which is a larger scale map  32 of the land.  Would you look at map 15 first.  Can you  33 tell us the date of this one, please?  34 A   Yes.  This is the Bellin of 1752.  So it pre-dates by  35 three years the map we've just examined.  36 Q   Yes.  37 A  And if one looks at the area rendering the area around  38 the head of Lake Superior and the adjacent  39 Mississippi, one sees even greater confusion as to  40 what the drainage was like in that area, and indeed  41 what the positioning of the different features was or  42 is.  43 Q   And he has labelled that that one does not know the  44 source of the --  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And that's below the —  47 A   Below the label for Mississippi. 19797  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  What does it say?  2 THE WITNESS:  One does not know the sources or source.  3 THE COURT:  What is the last word?  4 THE WITNESS:  I believe, my lord, it is capital S-O-U-R-C-E-S, I  5 believe.  6 MR. GOLDIE: The first S is an elaborate S.  7 THE COURT: Yes.  8 MR. GOLDIE: I tender that, my lord, as Exhibit 1149-15.  9 THE COURT: Yes.  10  11 (EXHIBIT 1149-15:  Map, Author Bellin dated 1752)  12  13 MR. GOLDIE:  And then we come to 16.  14 THE COURT:  I wonder if we should start another map, Mr. Goldie.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  All right, my lord.  16 THE COURT:  We will adjourn now until 10 o'clock, please.  17 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until 10  18 o'clock tomorrow.  19 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL SEPTEMBER 20, 1989 at 10 a.m.)  20  21  22  23  24 I hereby certify the foregoing to  25 be a true and accurate transcript  26 of the proceedings herein to the  27 best of my skill and ability.  28  29  30  31  32 LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  33 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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