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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-09-20] British Columbia. Supreme Court Sep 20, 1989

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 1979?  A.L. Farley (for Province)  Proceedings  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 September 20th, 1989  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  7 20th day of September, 1989.  In the matter of  8 Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen, at bar, my  9 lord.  10 May I remind you, sir, that you are still under  11 oath.  12 A   Yes.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your name for the record,  14 please.  15 A  Albert Leonard Farley.  F-A-R-L-E-Y.  16 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, sir.  17 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, before you start, could I just raise one  18 matter that I was wondering about.  Looking at --  19 which is the one that -- yes, 1149-4, the De Fonte --  20 no, it's the Jefferys' map based upon the De Fonte  21 stories.  This map was made in 1768, and I see that  22 it's -- it refers to de Fuca, the Strait of Juan de  23 Fuca.  De Fuca, if he was in the West Coast at all,  24 was there long before this date.  25 A  My lord, that is correct.  As I recall the de Fuca  26 account it was given by one Greek pilot in the -- in  27 one of the Mediterranean parts, I can't remember  28 which, and it was given to Michael Locke.  And it was  29 by a Greek -- this account given by a Greek pilot,  30 whose name was Apostolos Valerianos, or a name like  31 that, and his name in the account -- this same pilot  32 is given the name Juan de Fuca.  And so far as I'm  33 aware, my lord, there is no evidence to suggest that  34 this man, this pilot ever got as far as the strait  35 that has been named for him.  36 THE COURT:  M'hm.  So it's regarded as another apocryphal story?  37 A   It is regarded so, my lord.  38 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, before I continue with Dr. Farley.  There  40 is a scheduling problem that has just come to my  41 attention minutes before I came up here, and that is  42 with respect to the cross-examination of Mr.  43 Hobenshield.  We have arranged for Mr. Hobenshield to  44 be available on Monday, October 23rd, and I had just  45 received a letter which my friend Mr. Grant apparently  46 wrote in which he states that he wishes Mr.  47 Hobenshield cross-examined on October 24th.  There is 19799  A.L. Farley (for Province)  Proceedings  1 some importance with respect to that, my lord.  Mr.  2 Hobenshield works at Kitwanga.  He operates a sawmill  3 and is as much considerable importance to the  4 operation of the mill that he be away only the one  5 day.  So he was coming to Smithers from Kitwanga on  6 the night of -- Sunday night, and he was to be  7 presented for cross-examination on October 24th and  8 then on October 25th -- I'm sorry.  23rd, I should  9 say, which is the Monday.  He was to be examined on  10 Monday the 23rd, and Mr. Williams, who's the last of  11 the territorial witnesses called by the plaintiffs was  12 to be examined for Tuesday, October 24th.  Now, my  13 friend, Mr. Grant's letter slips that one day, and  14 that is of, as I say, of particular concern to us with  15 respect to Mr. Hobenshield, and unless there is some  16 compelling reason we would like to adhere to that  17 timetable which my friend had agreed to earlier.  18 MR. GRANT:  I can speak to this, my lord.  I had in the first  19 correspondence had mentioned the 23rd.  I had  20 intended -- and in a second letter, and had confirmed  21 that I intended to mean the cross-examination would  22 occur, my proposal was, in the week of the 23rd, not  23 on the 23rd.  In the interim my friends relied --  24 there was crossing in the mail and my friend said the  25 23rd is satisfactory.  In light of my friend's  26 schedule, which includes expert witnesses in the  27 immediate preceding week, and I anticipate I will be  28 here all of the preceding week as well as in terms of  29 other witnesses between now and the 23rd that I needed  30 some time to prepare for Mr. Hobenshield and I wished  31 to have that time in that week.  I had proposed that  32 he go on the 25th, and my friends wrote back to me and  33 said that he should go on the 23rd, and the 25th was  34 not satisfactory.  And, yes, I did arrange to deliver  35 a letter, I believe it's Mr. Mackenzie's dealing with  36 these matters, to Mr. Mackenzie and said well, the  37 25th is what I would like to do, but given your  38 problems I'm prepared to compromise and go with the  39 24th.  Basically it wasn't perfectly satisfactory to  40 me, it wasn't perfectly satisfactory to them, but that  41 was my compromise.  So the context of this is I said  42 there was a misunderstanding about the 23rd, because  43 of my letter, but here this should minimize the  44 problem.  I'm not going to be in a position to  45 properly prepare for him in light of the witnesses  46 that are coming up the week before.  That's what I  47 anticipate, unless, of course, my friend's schedule 19800  A.L. Farley (for Province)  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  changes.  And they confirmed that they're endeavoring  to keep to their schedule, so we can't rely on that,  or their schedule is shortened.  So the distance from  Kitwanga to Smithers, you're aware of that distance,  this is a commute that both I and my clients engage in  regularly.  It's an about an hour and a half.  And Mr.  Hobenshield is the proprietor, as I understand, one of  two owners of a mill.  His brother as well, I think,  he's a co-owner with his brother, if I recall rightly.  I'm not going to be in a position to cross-examine him  on the Monday the 23rd, but to ease the problems my  friends are now facing I agree that I have to -- that  it would be reasonable that I concentrate -- move up  from the 25th to the 24th.  So I propose that he be  cross-examined on the 24th.  I had earlier suggested  the 25th is what I really had wanted to do, but my  friend said that was difficult, or not possible.  Well, I said the 24th seems to be me to be reasonable.  We're over a month ahead of that.  I can't anticipate  that this is gonna be an overwhelming problem, a one  day change.  And Mr. Williams I had -- of course, this  affects the cross-examination of him as well, and I  had already advised him of the 26th and now I'm going  to have to move that back a day.  So there's some --  it's going to be -- of course, we are not going to --  we're gonna have them both done at the same time, so I  would -- my suggestion is that we go with the 24th.  It was an effort to compromise in discussions with my  friends.  :  I don't know what legal principle I'm supposed to  resolve in this kind of dispute.  :  I had no idea this was going to be raised with your  lordship.  I thought it was something we had generally  endeavored to have scheduled these matters amongst  counsel, and that's what my last letter was to is that  I was pushing myself --  :  Are you agreed that the cross-examination is going  to take place in Smithers?  :  That's been agreed, yes.  And we've also agreed that  the cross-examination of the last of the plaintiffs'  territorial witnesses will take place in Smithers in  the same week.  And, of course, immediately.  In fact  I had proposed that the cross-examination of Mr.  Gillan who my friends scheduled for Friday take place  at the same time in Smithers, because he's from up  north as well.  :  Friday of that week? 19801  A.L. Farley (for Province)  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  No.  My friends have last Friday raised that he  would be brought to Vancouver to be cross-examined  this Friday, and so long as it's only  cross-examination, and that I've made myself ready for  that potentiality.  But I -- what I'm saying is that  we would --  Well —  What I would like is if I make an application to the  court was that it be -- that the cross-examination of  Mr. Hobenshield would be on the 25th and Mr. Williams  would be on the 26th.  My friend says that's very  difficult for us so I said the 23rd is bad for me.  Let's split the difference.  That's really what I did.  I thought that was a reasonable resolution of the  matter that we each bear a little bit of  inconvenience, but not overwhelming.  I thought Mr. Goldie was going to close his case on  the 23rd.  GOLDIE:  I'm going to try to.  COURT:  And if that's so what preparation is there remaining  to be done, Mr. Grant, except for this?  GRANT:  I'm sorry.  I'm missing -- well, let me say this,  Mr. Goldie is leading witnesses until October 23rd.  COURT:  Yes.  That's a Friday, is it?  GOLDIE:  No, that's a Monday, my lord.  The date I gave to  your lordship was that I hoped to close in the week  ending October 20th.  The week ending October 20th.  Yes.  I'm sorry.  It was Friday the 20th.  Yes.  Now, in light of the schedule I anticipate that I  will be involved in that immediately preceding week  plus the earlier weeks with witnesses that they have  in court.  Yes.  The only off week we presently have is next week and  I am scheduled to book -- to prepare for what I  anticipate happening in October next week.  Yes.  I need some time to review the material and prepare  for Mr. Hobenshield, and we had agreed to the week of  October 23rd.  There's no difference between counsel  on that.  We had agreed to -- we had agreed to  cross-examination in Smithers.  Everybody's agreed on  that.  Now, basically what we're disputing about is  one day, and I need the one day.  I have to go to  Kitwanga and spend some time there.  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT 19802  A.L. Farley (for Province)  Proceedings  1  THE  2  3  4  5  MR.  6  MR.  7  8  9  THE  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  MR.  25  26  27  28  THE  29  MR.  30  31  32  33  34  35  THE  36  37  38  MR.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT:  Have counsel kept in mind that I can't sit on, is it  the 11th and 12th of October?  I did give notice of  that sometime ago.  It's the two days following the  Thanksgiving.  GOLDIE:  Thanksgiving.  GRANT:  I don't think that's in -- I tried to confirm the  schedule with Mr. Goldie and I certainly hadn't built  that into what I was endeavoring to do.  COURT:  Well, I don't want to decide this question right  now.  I would like to see if counsel could resolve it.  It seems to me there is no legal principle I can  possibly resort to if I make a decision it's one day  or the other.  There's something to be said for both  sides.  The date of October 23rd was apparently agreed  to, although Mr. Grant now says that was a  misunderstanding.  And Mr. Grant says that he needs a  day for preparation.  And I suppose Mr. Goldie says  why he couldn't do that on the Friday and Saturday is  because things would be closed and that's all he has  to do that weekend.  I don't want to make that  decision right now.  I think counsel could leave it 24  hours and see if they can resolve.  If not I'll make a  decision tomorrow morning.  GRANT:  I anticipate always with the direct and the cross  given what's happened, my lord, that I can't be  assured of the Saturday being clear.  That's been part  of the history of the last several months.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  GOLDIE:  I have to say this, my lord, that it's not a  question of no legal principle being involved, because  it is a question of convenience of counsel versus the  convenience of a witness.  Mr. Hobenshield will lose  two days under the present proposal.  If it was just  wages, that could be made up.  COURT: Why would he lose two days? He could drive to  Smithers in the morning of the 24th and have the  examination and be back that night.  GOLDIE:  It is desireable for counsel to at least see him,  so he's going to have to leave the previous evening --  the previous day.  But at the present time he is --  he's a hands on manager of a mill and when he's away  the mill doesn't operate the way he wants it to  operate.  And my friend says well, it's a matter of my  convenience.  Well, is there any reason why other  counsel can't do that.  We've had other counsel both  sides --  COURT:  Yes.  Mr. Grant's the only one that's resident in 19803  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 the area.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  That may be so, my lord.  None of us is resident in  3 the area --  4 THE COURT:  M'hm.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  — On our side.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I'm — I still think this matter  7 counsel should resolve, and if you can't I'll -- I'll  8 make an awkward choice tomorrow, if counsel remind me.  9 All right.  Mr. Goldie.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  11  12 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GOLDIE CONTINUED:  13 Q   Dr. Farley, at the conclusion of yesterday's -- your  14 evidence yesterday we were about to move to map 16.  15 Would you turn that up, please, in your Exhibit 1149.  16 And would you tell his lordship just what this is?  17 A   Yes.  This map, my lord, is copied from one that was  18 published by Thomas Jefferys in his American Atlas in  19 1777.  2 0 Q   All right.  21 A  And it shows the headwaters of the Mississippi to rise  22 in a relatively large Red Lake.  We may assume with  23 reasonable certainty that that is derived -- that is  24 the information about Red Lake is derived from French  25 sources.  The line work on the map beyond Red Lake,  26 that is to say northwest of Red Lake, has some  27 lettering on it.  In addition to the statement  28 Mississippi R, Mississippi River, whose head is  29 unknown, and then an extension of that by means of a  30 dotted line with the label "conjectural".  So once  31 again on this map, published in the American Atlas, an  32 important volume, important work, I may say, in  33 relationship to the early mapping of America, on this  34 map clearly the headwaters of the Mississippi were  35 unknown.  There was a great deal of uncertainty among  36 cartographers, and I think that's a point that's been  37 stressed in the comments that I made yesterday and  38 again with respect to this map by Jefferys.  39 Q   Is there any indication of whether it was officially  40 commissioned or whether this was a private piece of  41 work?  42 A   The answer to that really is, I think, a matter of  43 judgment in this sense, that if we look at the title  44 of the map it indicates the "North America with the  45 West India Islands Divided According to the Last  46 Treaty of Peace".  In other words, the Treaty of  47 Paris.  And then laid down at the bottom of the title 19804  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 statement, "Laid Down according to The Latest Surveys,  2 and Corrected from The Original Materials, of Governor  3 Pownall, Member of Parliament 1777."  By this time in  4 his career Jefferys, if memory serves me correctly,  5 Jefferys was indeed had been named geographer to the  6 King and therefore had access to sources of  7 information that would not be readily accessible to  8 people of lesser stature in the cartographic world.  9 And again Jefferys was a prominent British  10 cartographer of the time.  11 Q   Yes.  Thank you.  I'm sorry.  12 A   In terms of officially commissioned, again that's what  13 I meant when I said this is really a judgment of how  14 much official persuasion there may have been.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Unless you have any further comments on  16 that, Doctor, I'll tender this as Exhibit 1149-16, my  17 lord.  18 THE COURT:  Is there a Red Lake now?  19 A   Yes, there is a Red Lake in that complex area of  20 drainage and west and somewhat south of Lake Superior,  21 my lord.  As I pointed out in my appendix A that whole  22 area is, yes, topographic and hydrologically, in  23 particular, very complex.  And as pointed out in  24 appendix A it really has been a matter for latter day  25 authorities to determine, or decide rather, which is  26 the headwater of the Mississippi River.  There are  27 lots of areas of muskeg and poor drainage.  The whole  28 area has been disrupted by past glaciation in terms of  29 the hydrology there.  30 THE COURT:  The legend under Apaches Vaqueros, I'm not sure if  31 that's significant.  If you know what it means I'll be  32 glad to --  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Is that above the M of New Mexico, my lord?  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  36 Q   Do you have it, Doctor?  37 THE COURT:  It says — on either side of it it says "Vast Tract  38 of Land".  I just wonder if there's anything in that  39 italicized caption there that makes a difference?  40 A   Yes.  I think, my lord, that again this relates to  41 early exploration by the Spaniards into the  42 American -- what is now the American southwest, New  43 Mexico.  And indeed the label on the maps states New  44 Mexico.  And again we see Teguayo or the Teguas  45 Nation, and then the Apaches Vaqueros.  I'm not sure  46 about the origin of that title, but I think it's safe  47 to assume that again it relates -- clearly relates to 19805  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  MR.  4  5  THE  6  MR.  7  8  9  MR.  10  11  12  MR.  13  14  MR.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  THE  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  THE  44  MR.  45  46  THE  47  MR.  early Spanish expeditions into the semi desert and  desert land of the American southwest.  GOLDIE:  Q   Now, his lordship asked you about --  COURT:  Sorry.  GOLDIE:  I'm sorry.  I was going to say -- I was going to  direct the witness to a more legible part of the  printing under Apaches Vaqueros.  RUSH: The assumption the witness makes, I think, if he has  references or underlying facts to which he can direct  us, I think that would be useful.  GOLDIE: He has done that the first day of his testimony as  far as Spanish explorations is concerned.  RUSH:  My lord, the assumption is this geographer or  cartographer had in mind those Spanish explorations.  My friend is referring to the witness about those  explorations, not the evidence that this cartographer  had those in mind, and my interjection is based on  what the witness' knowledge is about what Jefferys had  in mind.  COURT:  Are you able to assist us in that regard, Dr.  Farley?  That is what historical references are there,  if any, that would support the suggestion that early  Spanish explorers had intruded into that area, and  that such facts, if any, were known to cartographers?  A  My lord, the first part of your question I can answer  more readily than the last.  If we look to evidence  that's available today I would suggest Reynolds'  Atlas of American History would be an excellent  reference.  As to knowledge what Jefferys had before  him there seems by this time, that is 1777, by the  date of publication of this map, there seems reason,  substantial reason to believe that the cartographer  had access to accounts of Spanish explorations in the  American southwest, and he had access to maps of that  area compiled by Spanish authorities or derived from  compilations from Spanish authorities.  As I pointed  out in my comment a moment ago I'm persuaded that in  the absence of other -- other information to guide my  judgment on this I would say, yes, that this is a  reflection of those early expeditions into the  American southwest.  COURT:  Thank you.  GOLDIE: Now, I had understood that your lordship had asked  a question about the --  COURT:  Oh, if it's convenient to know what it says.  GOLDIE:  Yes. 19806  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Now, I'm going to show the witness the copy certified  2 by the archives and ask him to read what is --  3 A   Thank you.  4 Q   What is written there.  5 A   Yes.  Under the statement of Apaches Vaqueros it says:  6 "The confederate Indians July" -- excuse me.  7 MR. GRANT:  That's okay.  8 A   July 197 -- excuse me.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  10 Q   Is it July 19th, 1701?  11 A   "July 19th, 1701 at Albany surrendered their beaver  12 hunting country to the English to be defended by them  13 for the said confederates, their heirs and  14 successors."  15 THE COURT:  Forever.  16 A   "Forever; this was ratified and confirmed September  17 14th, 1726 when the Sanecas" --  18 MR. GOLDIE:  19 Q   Canegas.  20 A   "Canegas and Onongedas surrendered their habitations  21 from Cayahoga to Oswego and 60 miles inland to the  22 English for the same use and purposes."  2 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1149-16.  25  26 (EXHIBIT 1149-16:  Map - Author Bowen/Jefferys)  27  28 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I had tendered that as 1149-16.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  31 Q   Now, Doctor, turning back to your report at page 23  32 and 24, and the table there of the -- of the  33 coordinates of the sources of the most northerly  34 tributary of the Mississippi River as mapped in the  35 maps that you have listed there, can you tell his  36 lordship what the approximate distance in miles is  37 between the most northerly point which you have  38 calculated, and that appears to be Bowen's map number  39 11, which is the last one on page 23, and the degrees  40 of latitude calculated on the two last maps which  41 appear to be very close together, 46 degrees 15  42 minutes north in one case and 46 degrees 20 minutes  43 north in the other case.  Can you give an  44 approximation of the distance in miles between those  45 two?  46 A   Yes, sir.  That is relatively easy if we are dealing  47 just with the latitude.  The value would be -- it will 19807  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 take me just a second to do this simple calculation.  2 Roughly speaking 300 miles.  3 Q   All right.  Thank you.  And is that nautical miles?  4 A   Yes, that would be nautical miles again.  5 Q   Right.  6 A  May I just do -- make sure that I have the numbers  7 correctly done here.  Yes, between 300 and 350 miles.  8 MR. RUSH:  Between 300 and 300 and?  9 A   50.  10 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  12 Q   Now, with respect to the variations in the  13 longitudinal co-ordinate --  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   -- The greatest difference appears to be between maps  16 eight, which is the De L'isle map, and Bowen's  17 accurate map of North America, which is number 12.  Am  18 I right in that?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Well —  21 A   De L'isle would be 80 west.  That's the first entry in  22 the table 80 west, and the Bowen accurate map of North  23 America is 98 west.  So that's a difference of --  24 THE COURT:  It is 98.3.  25 A   Sorry.  No.  No.  I'm incorrect in my reference to the  26 Bowen map in the table at the top of -- of 1763.  We  27 have a value there of west 101 degrees 15 minutes.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 A   So the difference in values is 20 degrees in 45  31 minutes.  And at this latitude very approximately,  32 again without a cosine table or a calculator I can't  33 easily do this, but just to give some idea to the  34 court about -- well, it would be more than 700 miles.  35 It would be closer to 800 miles.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  Now, I want to continue with that, but  37 before I do, my lord, I think in light of the  38 extensive discussion with respect to the map  39 identified with the words "Upper Mississippi" and the  40 four overlays that the witness has calculated that  41 should be tendered as an exhibit, and I'd ask that to  42 be given a separate number.  1150, is that the next  43 one?  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 MR. RUSH:  Well, I think, my lord, that I still have my  46 objections of yesterday, and I repeat those for the  47 formal record. 1980?  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  All right.  I'm of the view that having allowed it  2 to be introduced and discussed in the way it has it  3 should be now an Exhibit, 1150.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  Now —  5 THE COURT:  Subject to the infirmaties Mr. Rush has mentioned,  6 and which I'm sure he'll mention again at least in  7 argument.  8  9 (EXHIBIT 1150:  Map entitled "Upper Mississippi" and  10 four overlays)  11  12 MR. GOLDIE:  13 Q   I now want to return back to your report, Dr. Farley.  14 And at page 24 to 33 you --  15 THE COURT:  Page 33?  16 MR. GOLDIE:  Starting at page 24, my lord.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  And running through to page 33.  19 Q   You have a section which you have entitled, and I  20 quote, "The Sources of Rivers that 'fall into the Sea  21 from the West and Northwest'."  And in that title you  22 have also emphasized the words "fall into the Sea from  23 the West and Northwest".  And I understand that those  24 are words which are found in the Royal Proclamation?  25 A   Yes, that's the case.  26 Q   Now, I take it that in the first part of your report  27 you discuss the difficulties of mapping that  28 particular area of northeastern America.  And you give  29 the value on page 25 of the most northerly source of  30 the Penobscot River and the sources for that value?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And you state in the following paragraph, and I quote:  33  34 "It is inconceivable, however, that the framers  35 of the Proclamation of 1763 could have had  36 access to more than a very rudimentary  37 knowledge of this rather remote area."  38  39 MR. RUSH:  And I take serious objection to that, my lord.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  I anticipated that.  41 Q   Would you --  42 MR. RUSH:  And if I need to, my lord, restate the objection I  43 think that this clearly trenches on the decision that  44 your lordship has to make, and it's not within the  45 ambit of Dr. Farley's expertise.  I think your  46 lordship has already ruled on occasion, an occasion  47 during the evidence of Mr. Morrison, that the question 19809  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 of the intention of the framers of the Proclamation is  2 a question exclusively for your lordship and you  3 didn't need the evidence of an expert on the subject.  4 And what Dr. Farley thinks of this subject, I think,  5 is neither here nor there, and I don't think it's --  6 THE COURT:  This isn't a statement relating to the intention of  7 the framers.  This is a statement relating what the  8 cartographer believes the framers had or had access to  9 at the time of the document.  It doesn't go to the  10 intention.  11 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, it's his -- in my submission, the  12 proper course is for the witness to be led to all of  13 those things that they would have or would not have  14 had.  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16 MR. RUSH:  And not for the witness to conclude on some global  17 basis --  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19 MR. RUSH:  -- That what he conceives what they would or wouldn't  2 0 have.  21 THE COURT:  This may be overly generalized, and I think that it  22 might be better if it were -- if the witness were to  23 be asked to explain what he believed from his studies  24 was the nature of the information that the framers of  25 the Proclamation had at the relevant time.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  I was about to ask him what the basis for his  27 statement was.  2 8 THE COURT:  I think that would be helpful.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  30 Q   And would you proceed then, Dr. Farley?  31 A   Yes.  The thrust of that comment is that I have found  32 no evidence to suggest that there was good hard  33 information available as to co-ordinate positions in  34 that part of the country.  Well inland from the coast,  35 that is.  And even along the coast, as is evident from  36 a close examination of the relevant maps of the day  37 there was uncertainty as to where that coast line  38 actually was positioned in a co-ordinate system.  39 Q   And you make reference to Reynolds' Atlas of American  40 History.  41 MR. RUSH:  1984.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  1984.  43 Q   And that has in it a depiction of the boundary as of  44 1783?  45 A   Yes.  And as I have stated, I believe that that --  46 that atlas and the maps, the relevant maps within it  47 is representative of what authorities -- latter day 19810  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 authorities have had to depict about the boundary  2 area.  And as I have pointed out at the top, or close  3 to the top of page 26, that:  4  5 "Given the limited amount of geographic  6 knowledge concerning the area that prevailed in  7 the mid-eighteenth century, twentieth century  8 scholars have adopted as convenient the present  9 international border to represent the maximum  10 northeasterly limit of the then British  11 colonies."  12  13 Q   That is to say the British colonies prior to the  14 American Revolution?  15 A   Prior to the American Revolution, yes.  16 Q   All right.  Now, turning to the Saint John River and  17 the other geographic areas you give on page 26 the  18 most -- the co-ordinates of the headwater of the Saint  19 John —  20 A   Yes, Saint John.  21 Q   -- As 48 degrees five minutes north and 68 degrees 27  22 minutes west?  23 A   Yes.  2 4 Q   And you say:  25  26 "The most northerly point of drainage on the  27 present international border in this general  28 area is further south".  29  30 And you give the coordinates for that?  31 A   Yes.  On the one hand -- if I may clarify that point,  32 at least the statement.  On the one hand I've dealt  33 with the most northerly headwaters of the stream and  34 then on the second, the last statement in the  35 paragraph, the most northerly point on the present  36 international border.  37 Q   Right.  And then the -- the maps that you have -- have  38 consulted from which you have derived those values --  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   -- Are given in page 26?  41 A   On page 26, yes.  42 Q   Now, on page 27, Doctor, would you, please, explain or  43 enlarge upon the statement that you've made on page  44 27, namely:  45  46 "The most northerly point from which any stream  47 could be conceived as 'falling into the Sea' is 19811  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Mount Jacques Cartier".  2  3 Why is that?  4 A   If we look at this area from a topographic point of  5 view, that is a topography as we know it to exist  6 today, the whole Appalachain structures extend into  7 the Gaspe -- into the Gaspe peninsula, and that the  8 highest point there is represented by Mount Jacques  9 Cartier in, as I've indicated, in 48 59 north, 65 57  10 west, and from that drainage point, and indeed from  11 the Chic Choc mountains, the drainage flows northward  12 to the St. Lawrence estuary.  It flows eastward to the  13 Gulf of St. Lawrence, or it flows --  14 THE COURT:  Or southward to Chaleur Bay.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  16 Q   And you state that in your opinion:  17  18 "No such streams could be conceived as flowing  19 from the west and northwest and falling into  20 the Atlantic Ocean."  21  22 Why do you arrive at that conclusion?  23 A  Well, on the one hand drainage going to the St.  24 Lawrence estuary, and going to the estuary, and if it  25 were flowing southward it would flow to Chaleur Bay  26 and eastward it would go to the -- to the Gulf of St.  27 Lawrence.  So all of these water bodies are not part  28 of the sea as geographers identify these features, and  29 they have been identified on maps for many, many years  30 as distinctly different bodies of water and not the  31 sea.  32 THE COURT:  Where is Chaleur Bay?  33 A   If one thinks of the Gaspe peninsula, my lord --  34 MR. GOLDIE:  35 Q   Do you have a representation of the northwest that  36 would show that?  37 A   Yes.  I think perhaps, my lord, if I could be  38 permitted I could -- this is a rather small scale for  39 the purpose, my lord, but this is the feature.  4 0 THE COURT:  The Gaspe —  41 A   The Gaspe peninsula is that, and the embayment there  42 is Chaleur Bay.  43 THE COURT:  The bay in the south of the —  44 A   Of the Gaspe peninsula.  45 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  47 Q   And you've stated -- if I understood your evidence 19812  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 correctly you've stated that cartographers would  2 define by known conventions or rules these bodies of  3 water in the way you've described them?  4 A   Yes.  5 MR. RUSH:  I object to that, my lord.  6 THE COURT:  Well, the witness has already said that.  7 MR. RUSH:  Well, I object to it.  It might be a latter day  8 objection, but I think the witness should say what he  9 does, and if there's a convention he should explain  10 what the convention is.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, that's what I was about to ask him.  12 THE COURT:  All right.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  14 Q   Perhaps, now, Doctor, you've got on the easel  15 something that is identified as "Northeast Drainage".  16 And would you just indicate on that larger scale  17 presentation the Bay Chaleur or Chaleur Bay?  18 A   Yes.  At this darker scale again this is the Gaspe  19 peninsula here, and this is Chaleur Bay, and this  20 would be Restigouche River, this is the Saint John  21 River.  22 Q   Before you go on to that I want to ask you whether  23 there is definitions which are accepted and used by  24 cartographers which define a bay, and if so what is  25 it?  26 A   I can't quote exactly, but the Dictionary of Modern  27 Geography would be a good reference in this.  A bay is  28 enclosed or not entirely enclosed, but largely  29 enclosed by land.  An estuary is an entrance to a  30 river, and it is bounded on two sides by land.  A  31 strait is a narrow body of water, relatively narrow  32 body of water between two masses of land whether they  33 be islands or mainland.  34 Q   Thank you.  Now, you have put up on the easel there  35 something called "Northeast Drainage".  Perhaps you  36 would be good enough to explain to his lordship what  37 that is intended to -- what purpose you intend to  38 pursue with respect to it?  39 A  My lord, simply to again illustrate for this area as  40 was done for the Upper Mississippi the differences  41 that exist between different maps of the  42 mid-eighteenth century in terms of their portrayal of  43 the drainage in that area.  And as before in this case  44 I've had a base map prepared derived from modern maps,  45 and on that base map I've indicated the Bay of Fundy.  46 And we are well aware that bay is enclosed on two  47 sides and enclosed at the end by land and is open to 19813  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 the Atlantic only in a relatively narrow section from  2 Digby, Nova Scotia across to the mainland of Maine.  3 The Penobscot River is shown here.  This is the line  4 of the Penobscot and then there is Androscoggon and  5 the -- oh, yes the Kenebec River is the one to the  6 east, and this is the Androscoggon, and this is, of  7 course, Cape Cod, just to put it in some kind of  8 special perspective.  9 Q   All right.  Now, you've prepared some overlays in a  10 manner which you've described in the manner of 1150.  11 Would you take us through that, please.  12 MR. RUSH:  I have similar objections about these, my lord.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you.  14 A   In chronological order, preferably.  Well, it seems to  15 me we needn't -- this would be -- let's start with the  16 Bellin.  17 So in this overlay, my lord, I've shown the -- the  18 drainage as represented -- the drainage for this area  19 is represented on the 1755 Bellin map which in the  20 folio of maps accompanying my appendix A is map 14.  21 And what Bellin believed, and at this point if I may,  22 sir, I'll emphasize that Bellin was a reputable  23 cartographer.  And the comments I make in this context  24 are purely to illustrate the uncertainty, not -- in no  25 way a reflection on the skill or the command of the  26 cartographer concerned.  So Bellin is highly regarded.  27 And he places the Saint John River in this  28 configuration, or depicts it in this configuration.  29 And this, the Penobscot, one could argue that for the  30 time the placement is -- is not bad, but on the other  31 hand there are substantial variations.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  33 Q   Looking at it from here does he place the headwaters  34 of the Saint John across the course of the  35 Restigouche?  36 A   Yes, the upper Restigouche.  37 Q   All right.  Thank you.  All right.  The next one,  38 please.  39 A  And this is the Mitchell map.  Relatively large scale  40 map.  32 miles to the inch, if I recall correctly.  41 And Mitchell places the Saint John River as is shown  42 in red, orangey red on this overlay.  And again the  43 headwater as he represents it crosses the Restigouche  44 River as we know it to exist on modern maps.  The  45 Penobscot he places or depicts in a rather arc like  46 pattern extending from what we know to be on today's  47 maps the headwater of the Mirinachi. 19814  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  THE  COURT:  2  A  3  4  1  5  THE  COURT:  6  A  7  THE  COURT:  8  MR.  GOLDIE  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  ]  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A   ]  20  Q  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  23  24  25  THE  COURT:  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  THE  COURT:  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  THE  COURT:  30  MR.  RUSH:  31  32  33  34  ]  35  ]  36  37  38  MR.  GOLDIE  39  Q  40  A   ]  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  ]  Can you spell that?  Yes, my lord.  Rather than take the time of the court  I'd be quite prepared, as I've done on previous  days --  Yes.  -- Testimony to talk to the reporter at the break.  Yes.  All right.  What is the orange line along the coast, please?  Yes.  This is the coast line as Mitchell depicted it,  and once again we can see that it's not bad because  information from the coast line as I indicated in  my -- in my statements yesterday was better because  there were ships travelling the area engaged in trade,  and so one would have expected that the coastal  representation would be better, and indeed it is by  comparison to the interior.  All right.  That's Mitchell, which is your map ten?  Map ten, yes.  All right.  In my folio of maps --  My lord, I rise on the point of the Mitchell map.  The part that the witness has just spoken to is not  part of the map that has been tendered as Mitchell  ten.  Number 10?  So far as I'm aware.  Ten one or two?  Pardon me, my lord, it's two.  Two.  Yes.  And I wrote to my friends last night asking them for  the other portion of this, and I was advised that this  is not in their possession or in Dr. Farley's  possession.  And I asked for that other portion of the  map, and I can see little basis for Dr. Farley to be  making any comments about this without your lordship  having the underlying document in front of you, which  I'm advised he doesn't have.  Can you comment on that, please, Doctor?  My lord, it was my understanding that there was a  problem in copying the Mitchell map because of its  physical size, and that in order to get a reproduction  that could be folded conveniently and put in the folio  of maps it was decided to cut off part of the map, and  that part being the eastern extremity.  I had thought  that there was a -- a second copy of the map to be  made, and I regret to say I don't know whether that 19815  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 was -- that was actually done.  2 Q   Well, if it's not in the material perhaps we should  3 dispense with that overlay at the present time.  4 Now, which one have you got up?  5 A   Yes.  I have --  6 Q   Which overlay is on there now, Doctor?  7 A   I've put the overlay for the Bowen map, the one in the  8 folio of maps that I've numbered 11.  I've put the  9 overlay for that map along with the 1755 Bellin map on  10 the base map showing contemporary positioning as we  11 know it.  And with respect now to the Bowen map we can  12 see a representation of the Saint John River, the  13 headwater of which is shown up in the Gaspe peninsula,  14 lake in the Gaspe peninsula, another lake in the  15 position -- at the present position of the Chaleur  16 Bay, and the stream flowing down to yet another lake  17 in the vicinity of the present Northumberland Strait,  18 and then entering the sea at the head of Minas Basin.  19 I hope I'm correct in -- yes, that would be Minas  20 Basin.  And the Penobscot River shown to arise in a  21 substantial lake and then flow southward.  So that  22 what we see on this map is a displacement to the east  2 3 on the Bowen map.  24 THE COURT:  Displacement of the rivers to the east?  25 A   From their true position as we understand those  26 positions to exist today, my lord.  The coast line is  27 again not bad, but it suggests some uncertainty about  28 the long -- what amounts to longitudinal positioning  29 of Casco Bay and the features along the coast of New  30 England and New Brunswick.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   All right.  Do you have another one there?  33 A  And the final overlay that I have is the Bowen, and in  34 this case again 1763, but this would be Bowen map 12  35 in my folio of maps.  And the representation from this  36 map is shown in the violet ink, violet colour.  And we  37 can see that there is a considerably better  38 positioning on this map than on the preceding Bowen.  39 In this case the Saint John River is shown to flow  40 more or less along the line of the -- its present  41 course, although again somewhat displaced to the east.  42 And the Penobscot shown in a rather -- shown to have a  43 rather curvaceous or sinuous course.  Its headwater  44 again being shown in the present position of the  45 middle Saint John, middle to upper Saint John River.  46 So again the thrust of this, my lord, is simply to  47 illustrate at the time that there was considerable 19816  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 uncertainty as to the positioning of these features,  2 for once again all three maps are -- well, they're by  3 reputable cartographers.  Both Bowen and Bellin are  4 reputable cartographers.  5 Q   Just to eliminate the background map I'm going to ask  6 you to put under the overlays a blank sheet of paper.  7 And does that indicate the conclusions that you have  8 just stated, there is a considerable uncertainty as to  9 the features on that map -- on the maps that you've  10 been discussing?  11 A  Very much so.  It shows with respect to the coast  12 line, first of all, that there is variation and  13 especially in the position -- positioning of Casco  14 Bay.  And there's a good deal of uncertainty, or  15 there's a good deal of difference which expressed to  16 my eye the uncertainty that these cartographers faced  17 in the positioning of the rivers inland.  In other  18 words, it's much greater uncertainty about the rivers  19 inland even in this -- this part of North America  20 there's even more uncertainty about the rivers inland  21 than there is about the positioning, excuse me, of the  22 coast line.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I tender the underlying map with the title  24 "Northeast Drainage" and the three overlays  25 representing the maps 11, 12 and 14 as the next  26 exhibit.  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  1151, is it?  29 THE COURT:  1151.  30  31 (EXHIBIT 1151:  Map entitled "Northeast Drainage" with  32 three overlays)  33  34 MR. GOLDIE:  35 Q   Doctor, before you leave the easel I want to refer you  36 to the general map entitled, or depiction entitled  37 "Drainage" which you described in your introductory  38 remarks.  Can you from that tell us what the rivers  39 are that drain from -- name them that is to say, that  40 drain from the northeast into the sea?  Just identify  41 those rivers.  42 A   Yes.  I can at least identify most of them.  We have  43 here the Hudson River, we have the Delaware River, the  44 Susquehanna River.  45 THE COURT:  Just a moment.  Sorry.  S-U-S-Q-U-A?  46 A   Yes.  S-U-S-Q-U-E-H-A-N-N-A.  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes. 19817  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  A  2  3  ]  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  THE  COURT:  23  MR.  GOLDIE  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  THE  COURT:  32  33  34  35  A  36  1  37  38  39  THE  COURT:  40  41  A  42  43  ]  44  45  46  MR.  GOLDIE  47  The Susquehanna, the James, the Roanoke,  R-O-A-N-O-K-E, the Savannah River.  There are others,  my lord, in this area, the southern part of what was  the New England colonies draining -- that relatively  well watered section draining to the Atlantic Ocean.  This portrayal, as I indicated in my earlier comments,  this portrayal of the drainage basins is derived from  the modern maps.  And the red lines once again shows  the drainage divides.  And this is taken from the  relevant sheets; the Canadian Mines and Technical  Surveys sheet showing drainage basins, and also from  the U.S.G.S..  That's the U.S. Geological Survey  authorities.  So clearly the boundary had to be  generalized to get it on to a map of this scale, but  nonetheless the source for the positioning of that  line is from the best authority.  Doctor, what is the northern most river that answers  the description of one that falls into the sea from  the west and northwest?  Oh, that would be without question the Penobscot.  Thank you.  Sorry?  :  The Penobscot.  P-E-N-O-B-S-C-O-T.  And in your report you've given the values for the  northern most part of the tributaries of the Penobscot  in the various maps that you've described; is that  correct?  Yes.  Now, turning to page 33 you have a section --  Can I interrupt?  Are you -- then it's your opinion,  is it, that the other rivers you showed on your  overlay, the Saint John particularly, and the  Restigouche, don't fall into the sea?  No.  Not according to my understanding of the  difference between an ocean or a sea and a bay they do  not.  The Restigouche and the Saint John do not fall  into the sea, my lord, in my interpretation of it.  You say nothing north of the Penobscot falls into  the sea?  The Penobscot is the most northerly stream, my lord.  And if I may, my lord, that's shown on the map.  And I  made the point, my lord, that that's drawn from the  best sources that we have, best sources of which I'm  aware we have showing drainage basins.  :  My lord, that first generalized map of North  America with the drainage areas was not tendered as an 1981?  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 exhibit, but I do so now.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  Subject to Mr. Rush's objection it will be  3 Exhibit 1152.  4  5 (EXHIBIT 1152:  Map entitled "Drainage")  6  7 MR. GOLDIE:  8 Q   Turning to your report at page 33 you have a section  9 which continues through to virtually the end of your  10 report entitled "Mapping Northwest America".  11 MR. RUSH:  Just before my friend goes on to that, my lord,  12 I've taken objection to the reference to the Mitchell  13 map at 29 and 30 basically as the same objection I  14 raised before.  The map isn't before the court.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, I think, my lord, there has been some  16 confusion, and I hope I now have it right.  The  17 Mitchell map that -- from which the overlay was  18 derived was delivered to my friend on September 7th.  19 You have a copy of this map.  2 0 MR. RUSH:  I don't know if I do.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, there is the letter.  22 MR. RUSH:  Then how is it I got a letter yesterday saying you  23 didn't have it?  24 MR. GOLDIE:  That's the confusion that has arisen.  Miss  25 Sigurdson's understanding of your letter was it was  26 referred to in the evidence, and that was one that  27 didn't show the Ohio.  28 MR. RUSH:  Well —  29 MR. GOLDIE:  It's at page —  30 MR. RUSH:  Then I am confused.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I think the confusion is fairly simply  32 resolved.  At page 19765 of yesterday's transcript  33 your lordship said -- and they were talking about the  34 Mitchell map that has the headwater of the Mississippi  35 on it.  And your lordship said:  36  37 "THE COURT:  So the Ohio is not on this map?  38 THE WITNESS:  No, my lord.  39 THE COURT:  And nor should it be on this map?  40 THE WITNESS:  Well, I did not see fit to  41 include it with this portion of the  42 Mitchell map, again for the reasons I have  43 just outlined."  4 4                     THE COURT:  Yes.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  But there is another portion of  46 the Mitchell map that has the Ohio on  47 it? 19819  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE WITNESS:  Oh, yes, indeed.  2 THE COURT:  All right."  3  4 Well, rightly or wrongly we thought Mr. Rush's  5 request of last night referred to that.  And the  6 witness doesn't have that, but the portion of the  7 Mitchell map has -- from which he derived the values  8 for the overlay was delivered to my friend on  9 September 7th.  10 MR. RUSH:  How do we know that?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'll ask the witness.  12 MR. RUSH:  Because the confusion I had was that presumably the  13 evidence that was lead from the witness, and I took it  14 from the witness' response to my interjection, was in  15 respect of the other half of the Mitchell map which is  16 Exhibit 1149.  17 THE COURT:  Do I understand now there is not just a section of  18 the Mitchell map showing the Ohio that wasn't included  19 as an exhibit, but there's still a third section of  20 the Mitchell map that portrays a portion of  21 northern -- northeastern North America that is east of  22 the Ohio and shows the coast line?  23 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  24 THE COURT:  There are three sections of the Mitchell map that  25 are not in the Exhibit 1 showing the Ohio and one  26 showing the coast line?  27 MR. GOLDIE:  Two sections that were not in the exhibit, but the  28 section that has the northeastern coast line was the  29 one sent to my friend.  30 THE COURT:  The section showing the Ohio isn't available?  31 MR. GOLDIE:  That's not the one that isn't available.  32 THE COURT:  Now, the question is of whether or not Mr. Rush has  33 seen the third section of the Mitchell map, that  34 section showing the coast line, the Atlantic coast  35 line.  36 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  That is the question I had understood from the  37 witness' answer yesterday, that there were two  38 sections, not three.  Now I understand there are  39 three.  And he didn't say anything about that in his  40 evidence now, but if there is the third section, and  41 if it is the one that he referred to then I'd like to  42 see it.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, you've seen it.  44 MR. RUSH:  Maybe I could see it again.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Certainly.  There it is.  46 MR. RUSH:  Well, thank you.  47 MR. FREY:  My lord, if it's of any assistance, we received the 19820  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 easterly portion of the map on or about September the  2 7th with the materials that we received.  3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  It's described in my letter, my lord, as -- there  5 are four maps that I sent to my friend.  It's  6 described in my letter as part of the eastern  7 extension to map ten entitled "Map of the British  8 Colonies of North America by Jonathon Mitchell 1755",  9 but the Ohio is in between it and the map in the map  10 folio.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  That's the Ohio is — it's the Ohio that we're  12 missing?  13 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Perhaps I might go on and just leave that and  14 I'll come back.  I was intending to come back to  15 the -- that after --  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  -- I had that point clarified.  I was at page 33 of  18 the witness' report, Mapping Northwest America.  19 Q   And you state, Dr. Farley, that you had made:  20  21 "Brief reference was made to the relative  22 recency of European discovery and mapping of  23 Northwest America."  24  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And then you have a section in which you discussed the  27 determination of the coastal outline, and in the  28 course of that you make reference to a number of the  29 maps in your -- in your -- that section, my lord, goes  30 from pages 33 to 44.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  33 Q   And you start off by discussing the -- one of the  34 Spanish voyages of 1602 - 1603, and Bering's  35 expedition of 1741.  36 THE COURT:  Before you leave that, where is Cape Blanco?  37 A   The American west coast, my lord.  38 THE COURT:  Oh, just generally.  39 A   It would be north of San Francisco, my lord.  40 THE COURT:  North of San Francisco?  41 A   Yes.  I can't think of the appropriate value for  42 distance, but it's perhaps a couple hundred miles  43 north of San Francisco.  44 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  46 Q   And you comment upon the speculation that took place  47 with respect to the area, and you make reference to 19821  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 interpretations of sightings, and as an example you  2 make -- you refer to your map 17.  Could you turn to  3 that, please, and --  4 A   Yes.  5 THE COURT:  This section determining the coastal outline is the  6 north Pacific coast outline?  7 A   Yes.  My lord, the northwest Pacific northeast  8 Pacific.  The northeast Pacific ocean, my lord, and  9 northwest America.  10 THE COURT:  Northwest coast line.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  12 Q   Now, do you have map 17 in front of you?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Would you just, please, describe that?  15 A   I think one of the striking features of this map is  16 the degree of ignorance that it portrays concerning  17 northwest America.  If we look -- since there are two  18 planispheres in this map, if we look at the old world  19 we see that it is rendered in certainly in what we  20 would call today understandable terms, Black Sea,  21 Caspian Sea and features inland are shown in  22 recognizeable form.  Even part of Australia -- a  23 significant part of Australia is reasonably well  24 represented.  The western part compliment so far as  25 York peninsula in the north and the present position  26 of Adelaide in the south.  By comparison if we look at  27 northwest America -- well, the lands about the north  28 Pacific we see a huge land mass shown extending across  29 the north Pacific, we see a water way that extends  30 from the sea of the west to Hudson Bay, and we see a  31 vast sea of the west deeply indenting the western side  32 of the continent.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  34 Q   Now, Doctor, what is the date of this map?  35 A   This, this is the 17 -- approximately 1700.  The  36 reason I was hesitant there is that the Sanson work  37 was carried on by others, and this happens to be one  38 that was done by, I see from the title box, Hubert  39 Yealow (phonetic) , who really replicated much of  40 Sanson's work.  41 Q   All right.  Now, you mentioned the sea of the west.  42 And are there any other -- and are there any other  43 misconceptions or matters that you wish to draw his  44 lordship's attention to?  45 A   Yes.  I think it's worthwhile noting the lamentature  46 on the map.  On that vast land mass we see Terres  47 Inconnues or Terres de Jesso or Jesso.  And that name 19822  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Jesso stems from early exploration of the Japanese  2 islands by Europeans and navigations in that area.  3 And there was a confusion, we believe, between the  4 northern island of Japan and the southern part, island  5 of Sakhalin, confusion of those two into the notion of  6 a vast land mass in the north Pacific.  The early  7 sighting was by -- by a dutch expedition under Vries.  8 And if memory serves me correctly, my lord, it was  9 around 1642.  But the reason particularly for the  10 adoption of the name Jesso we believe, that is latter  11 day scholars believe it's a confusion with the old  12 name for the present Hokkaido, which is as you know is  13 the northern most of the Japanese home islands.  And  14 the old name for Hokkaido was Yezo, Y-E-Z-O.  and it's  15 transliterated into the English.  I can say the  16 authorities, the cartographic authorities regard that  17 as the case.  18 And then, of course, the Sea of Jesso or Jesso  19 shown on the ocean just below that land mass --  2 0 THE COURT:  Where do you see that?  21 A  My lord, just on that vast, or on the ocean below that  22 vast land mass is the label "Mer De Jesso".  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 A   Or Sea of Jesso.  25 THE COURT:  And what is Mer Dusud, D-U-S-U-D?  26 A   Yes, my lord, that would mean the South Sea.  The  27 sea -- the South Sea.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  29 Q   And then so the Mer Pacifique is to the south of that  30 again?  31 A   Yes.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  May I tender that, my lord, as Exhibit  33 1149-17.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  We'll take the morning  35 adjournment, please.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  37  38 (EXHIBIT 1149-17:  Map - Author Sanson)  39  40 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  41 short recess.  42  43  44  45  46  47 19823  2  3  4  5  6  7  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 19824  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  THE  4  MR.  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  THE  13  14  15  MR.  16  THE  17  MR.  18  19  20  21  22  MR.  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  28  29  30  THE  31  MR.  32  33  34  35  36  37  THE  38  MR.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  THE  47  MR.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:45)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  GOLDIE:  My lord, I'm going to tender the section of the  Mitchell map, which is the part of the eastern  extension to map 10 entitled, and I quote, "Map of the  British Colonies in North America".  And since it was  used by the witness in plotting the overlay which we  removed from Exhibit 1152, I wish to tender that as a  separate exhibit, my lord, which I think would be  1153.  COURT:  I would rather mark it along with the other part to  which it's connected, map 10-1 -- we have 10-1 and  10-2.  GOLDIE:  This would be 10-3 then?  COURT:  10-3, yes.  GOLDIE:  1149-10-3, very well.  (EXHIBIT 1149-10 Part 3 - Map - Author Mitchell,  Part of Eastern Extension to Map 10)  GOLDIE:  Q   Now, Dr. Farley, is that the map from which you  plotted the co-ordinates from the overlay on Exhibit  1152?  A   Yes, that's the map.  GOLDIE:  All right, thank you.  My Lord, I've then asked  that the overlay that we removed from 1152 be restored  to part of that exhibit.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  GOLDIE:  Q   Now, do you wish to make any comments on that?  I  believe you had commented on it, but if you wish to  add anything to what you've said --  A   I think, my lord, I've made the points that I feel are  important in this part of my evidence.  COURT:  Thank you.  GOLDIE:  Q   All right.  I referred to that as Exhibit 1142, but it  should be 51, my lord, 1151.  One other comment, my  lord.  It's been drawn to my attention that in map 16  there is -- there are two rivers marked as Mississippi  on 16, and I neglected to ask Dr. Farley to point that  out.  Does your lordship see the Red Lake, which was  the subject matter of --  COURT:  Yes.  I have the notation west of Red Lake.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  If your lordship would now drop down to just 19825  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 below the word "Sioux".  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  And going west your lordship will see a solid --  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   I take it that's a lake, is it, doctor?  7 A   Yes.  That's a representation of a lake.  8 Q   And then draining into it or leading off to the west  9 from it is Mississippi River, and that's clearer on  10 the photographic reproduction from the archives; is  11 that correct, doctor?  12 A   That's correct.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  14 THE REGISTRAR:  My lord, overlay number 4 is to be an exhibit?  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  17  18 (EXHIBIT 1151-Overlay 4 - Map entitled "Northeast  19 Drainage")  20  21 THE COURT:  They seem to join under the U of Sioux.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  23 Q   Yes.  24 A   If I may mention, my lord, that lake just referred to  25 and the stream, as well as Red Lake, are shown on the  26 overlay.  What I did not do was to show all the  27 associated drainages.  2 8 THE COURT:  All right.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  30 Q   All right.  Now, we had got to page 34.  We've  31 referred to map 17, and you had referred to other maps  32 which repeated the variations, and then you have a map  33 18.  Would you refer to that, please.  34 A   Yes.  Map 18 in the folio of maps is one by Robert De  35 Vaugondy, and once again it shows the state of  36 geographic ignorance about northwest America, even as  37 recently as the middle of the eighteenth century, the  38 date of this map being 1750.  We see west of Hudson  39 Bay in bold type and -- large type lettering, I should  40 say, not type, "Terres Inconnues", unknown land.  We  41 see the word "Quivira" near the lettering "Terres  42 Inconnues", labelled "Quivira", we see north and west  43 of Quivira "Moozemlek".  44 THE COURT:  North and east.  45 A   North and east, my lord, yes.  And --  46 THE COURT:  You told me yesterday what Moozemlek was all about,  47 but I don't remember what it was. 19826  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   The name, my lord, was -- appears in Baron La Hontan's  2 account of his fictitious travel to the land of the  3 Moozemlek and to the Western Sea, and the name  4 Moozemlek, or variously spelled with two O's or two  5 E's, that is the name that La Hontan has given to the  6 Indians that he allegedly visited.  7 THE COURT:  All right.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  9 Q   So that the name is fictional and so are the people,  10 is that —  11 A   That's the case.  12 Q   Yeah, all right.  Any other comments you wish to make  13 on this other than what you have in your report?  14 A   Just the comment again to set this in context:  15 Vaugondy, a member of the Royal Academy in Paris, and  16 we see in this map an honest recognition of what was  17 unknown.  True, he has incorporated names and features  18 that turned out to be fictitious, but in the case of  19 that label, "Terres Inconnues", that's a reflection of  20 what might be called scientific cartography, the  21 scientific approach that the French or the scientific  22 attitude that the French had toward their mapping,  23 what was known or thought to be known was portrayed  24 and what was -- and what were areas of ignorance were  25 left blank, and in this case the author of the map,  26 the cartographer, has managed, by an elaborate  27 cartouche around the title box, to take away some of  28 the negative -- you might say visually, the negative  29 impact of having a blank area on the map.  30 THE COURT:  What does it say in the -- along the coast at the  31 entrance to what might be Puget Sound?  32 A   Excuse me, my lord, yes.  It says Entree decouverte  33 par Martin d'Aguilar".  And this I refer in my  34 appendix, Martin d'Aguilar managed to travel north --  35 he was associated with one of the Spanish expeditions,  36 early Spanish expeditions, northward along the coast,  37 and he got to the vicinity, I think it was 43 North.  38 I can't recall the exact value of latitude, but it  39 is -- it is reported in my Appendix A, my lord.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  I tender that, my lord.  41 THE COURT:  Just a moment now.  That parallel shown here --  42 well, I suppose it is -- that's 45 at the top of that  43 bay or entrance, is it?  4 4 A   Yes, my lord.  45 THE COURT:  And is — at what latitude is San Francisco?  46 A   San Francisco is in about latitude 37.  47 THE COURT:  All right. 19827  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   If I may, my lord, just for general reference on this,  2 I think of the northern boundary of California being  3 in latitude 42.  4 THE COURT:  Yes, All right.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  All right thank you.  I tender that as Exhibit  6 1149-18, my lord.  7  8 (EXHIBIT 1149-18 - Map - Author Vaugondy)  9  10 MR. GOLDIE:  11 Q   Now, your report you say at page 35 that De L'isle,  12 the French geographer, you believe had access to  13 information from the Russians, and your next map,  14 number 19, is a map by De L'isle?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Would you comment on that, please?  17 A   Yes.  This is a map by Nicholas -- Jean Nicholas De  18 L'isle, and not to be confused with Guillaume or  19 William De L'isle, whose work was referred to earlier.  20 This map, again dated 1752, and even again as recently  21 as this date we see a great deal of confusion relative  22 to northwest America or its representation on maps.  23 De L'isle in this map has obviously swallowed  24 completely the spurious account by Admiral Bartholomew  25 De Fonte that -- and he also has included in this map  26 some elements of the La Hontan fiction, although  27 they're not so clearly portrayed, or I should say so  28 obviously portrayed.  But we see on this map a Lac  29 Valasco, Lac De Fonte.  30 THE COURT:  Where are they?  31 A  Valasco, my lord --  32 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  33 A  And then to the right of that and the lettering is  34 angled up toward the northeast, we see Lac De Fonte,  35 and then there is a feature shown or labelled as Grand  36 Coronado, and I can't read the next part, Susant(?),  37 Samson, which would be a freshwater grand stream, and  38 it's direction of flow is shown leading from Lac  39 Bernarda, which is in the upper part of the map, and  40 the feature that angles again from the vicinity of Lac  41 Valasco northeast bearing nearly to adjoin Baffin Bay.  42 So this is shown as a river and the direction of flow  43 shown by that arrow and a huge sea of the west.  So  44 all of that figure is incorporated in De L'Isle's  45 representation for northwest America, yet by contrast  46 if we look at the Siberian -- the Asiatic side, the  47 representation is not bad -- well, it's recognizeable. 1982?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  One can see the peninsula of Kamchataka and some  suggestion of the drainage for northeastern Siberia,  but in addition to that one sees two substantial land  masses, one very large, and the label -- that is in  the area of the North Pacific, and the prominent label  on that second and larger land mass is coast -- if I  may make an approximate translation, "Coast seen by  Messrs. Chirikov and De L'isle in September, 1741.  MR. RUSH:  Where is this?  MR. GOLDIE:  It's the island in the — here, I'll —  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  A  MR. GOLDIE  Left centre.  Oh, I see.  I hope that that's an acceptable translation.  In any  case, it is a clear reference to the Bering voyages,  and indeed one season the map represented there the  tracks of Chirikov, and we see De L'isle because De  L'isle accompanied Chirikov in his ship.  There were  two ships in the Bering expedition across the North  Pacific toward the American coast.  Again, my lord, I  do not wish to take the court's time unduly, but to  set things into some kind of perspective, the reason  that the French had access to the Bering information,  and indeed partly why De L'isle was able to accompany  Bering, is that Czar Peter, in establishing the  Chancery of Military and Marine in St. Petersburg,  invited members of the Royal Academy of Paris to  attend the Chancery and to help in the preparation of  maps, and it was really through the disloyalty of De  L'isle, among others, that the information that I  suppose -- well, I am making a supposition here, one  could regard as being confidential, that information  was leaked out to other people in western Europe, and  that's not from my own -- I'll say it this way:  That  the authority for that is Wagner and various other  authors who have written quite extensively about this,  Golder and Wagner and various others, so indeed  reference to disloyalty is not original with me.  The — I tender that, my lord, as Exhibit 1149-19.  (EXHIBIT 1149-19  Map  Author J.N. De L'isle)  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  :  Where do you see the reference to the route taken by  De L'isle and the --  My lord, if you look at the area of the North Pacific,  out of that large island or land mass there are three  lines, rather skinny lines shown on the map.  :  Oh, yes, I see it. 19829  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  A  2  3  MR.  GOLDIE  4  Q  5  6  A  7  MR.  GOLDIE  8  THE  COURT:  9  MR.  GOLDIE  10  THE  COURT:  11  MR.  GOLDIE  12  13  THE  COURT:  14  MR.  GOLDIE  15  THE  COURT:  16  17  18  A  19  THE  COURT:  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  MR.  GOLDIE  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  1  47  A  And the middle one of those is labelled "L'Amerique  par le Captaine Tchirikow et M. De L'isle".  Have I got this right, that he puts the Kamchataka  Peninsula over on the Siberian side?  Yes.  :  I see, all right.  Well, you sound surprised at that, Mr. Goldie.  :  I beg your pardon, my lord?  You sounded surprised at that.  :  Well, I was having trouble distinguishing between  land and sea when I looked at this, and --  Yes.  Well I am too, but this would suggest that --  :  I had lost my bearings.  Well, we all do that sometimes, but this would  suggest that he sailed across the Gulf of Alaska,  wouldn't he?  Pardon?  That he sailed across the Gulf of Alaska?  Yes.  There's clear -- well, the Bering account --  account of the voyage indicates they did sight and  name Mt. St. Elias -- they did not land and they  sighted it, and recorded it and sited it in the  journal.  Indeed -- south of the label "Lac Valasco"  is the label "Terres veues par" -- if I may make a  very approximate translation, "Land seen by the  Russians in 1741" or --  "Where".  "Ou".  "Where", sorry, "Captain Chirikov" -- I can't read  that part.  "Lost his ship and" --  Oh, yes, yes.  "Ten of his men".  Yes, all right.  Now, you state on  page 35 that the fantasy of the -- of De Fonte was  picked up by some.  It was criticized in France, and  you make reference to the map, map 14, which we have  seen, and you note that Bellin, however, does include  a tentative "Mer de l'Ouest" in his portrayal?  Yes.  You say a good interpretation of the results of the  Bering second expedition is shown in Muller's  compilation entitled "Nouvelle carte de decouvertes  faites par des vaisseaux Russiens", which is map 20.  Would you turn to that, please?  Yes. 19830  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  MR.  RUSH:  2  3  THE  COURT:  4  MR.  RUSH:  5  THE  COURT:  6  MR.  GOLDIE  7  8  ]  9  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  THE  COURT:  12  MR.  GOLDIE  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  MR.  GOLDIE  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  1  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  My lord, just for your reference, the map at 19 is  also exhibited at 1027-19 already.  Thank you, 10 —  27-19.  Thank you.  :  I haven't checked it, but I think there are some of  the maps that were virtually illegible in Mr.  Morrison's, and my recollection is that Miss Mandell  was going to provide us with more clear copies.  And we have got those copies, my lord.  Thank you.  :  We have yet to get them.  May we have them?  We only have one copy.  I see.  Map 20, would you comment upon that, please?  Yes.  This is the map by Muller.  This map is dated  1754, and Muller was in the service of the Czar and  later of course the Empress Catherine.  In association  with mapping the results or expressing in maps the  results of the Bering -- various Bering -- the three  Bering expeditions, but principally here we're dealing  with the last expedition, that is the one across the  North Pacific, and Muller makes what we can recognize  today as a remarkably good interpretation of the  results of the Bering voyages.  Once again, one can't  help but visually contrast the state of geographic  knowledge concerning Siberia, particularly it's  northwestern portion, and Kamchataka, and the Sea of  Okhotsk.  That area, with the counterpart in North  America, and clearly northwest America, is shown  pretty largely as blank, and what is shown is less  than precise, and indeed partly fictitious, at least  partly fictitious.  Well, you've identified, or there is identifiable on  this, Mount St. Elias, to which you made earlier  reference?  Yes.  And then going down the coast, there is the discovery  of Captain Chirikov referred to, and below that is  what -- oh, the Admiral De Fonte?  Yes.  And the next one is entrance discovered by Juan de  Fuca in 1599?  Yes.  You've referred to that?  Yes.  And then Aguilar? 19831  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  A  Aguilar, yes.  Q   And Cape Blanco?  A   Yes.  Q   Yes, all right.  The -- any other comments that you  wish to make on that point?  A   I think not, I think the --  MR. GOLDIE:  I tender that — sorry.  I tender that as Exhibit  1149-20, my lord.  (EXHIBIT 1149-20 - Map - Author Muller)  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   You state:  "The first Europeans to sight what is now the  British Columbia coast were members of the Perez  expedition of 1774."  And you state the:  "Expedition sailed northward from San Bias (via  Monterey) and reached as far as Dixon Entrance."  Is there a -- oh, the next map is Captain Cook; is  that correct?  Yes.  Yes.  Perhaps if you would turn to that map and give  us a summary of the voyages which preceded that and  which you referred to in your report and then discuss  the results of Captain Cook's voyage?  Yes.  As was noted a moment ago, Perez did get as  far -- we believe he got as far as Hecate Strait.  :  Sorry.  This is Cook?  Excuse me, my lord, this would be Perez, the first of  the Spanish explorers -- marine explorers to sight  part of what is now British Columbia.  And this is the  first European sighting that -- of which we're aware,  that is of which we have a record, documentary record  the sighting of part of British Columbia.  It was by  Perez, who led an expedition northward, and he reached  as far as Dixon -- yes, Dixon Entrance, not Hecate  Strait, Dixon Entrance, and made limited sightings  there, and then disease and bad weather drove him  south.  He made a brief sighting of Vancouver Island  and then travelled southward again.  :  And the year?  And that would have been 1774 -- excuse me.  Make sure  A  Q  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A 19832  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 I have that correctly.  Yes, the Perez expedition of  2 1774.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 A   His voyage was followed a year later by one under the  5 leadership of Hezeta, and Hezeta got as far as the  6 mouth of the Morlips River on the --  7 THE COURT:  Sorry, Mr. Reporter will need a spelling for that?  8 A  M-o-r-l-i-p-s.  9 THE COURT:  Oh, I'm sorry, that's the Morlips River?  10 A  And the present Washington State --  11 THE COURT:  And the spelling of the Spanish gentleman's name?  12 A   P-e-r-e-z.  I'm not all together sure of the  13 pronunciation.  14 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I thought you got onto a second voyage?  15 A   Oh, Hezeta, H-e-z-e-t-a, my lord.  16 THE COURT:  Thank you.  17 A   The point I wanted to make here, my lord, is that  18 Hezeta's second-in-command got separated from his  19 senior officer in a storm but proceeded northward  20 following his directive to make as much northern as he  21 could, and he did that and he got into what is now  22 part of Alaska at a place he called Bucareli Bay, and  23 indeed there is a Bucareli Bay shown on latter day  24 U.S. geography sheets of that area, but it is  25 northward of the area now a part of British Columbia,  26 and that was the last of the Spanish explorations, the  27 first phase of the Spanish explorations northward,  28 that is north of Cape Blanco, let us say, and it was  29 followed not by a Spanish expedition but rather by an  30 English expedition under the command of Captain Cook.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   And you talk about that on page 37.  And what is the  33 map at number 21?  34 A   This is a reproduction of the so-called detailed chart  35 that accompanies Cook's narrative, or the account of  36 Cook's voyage.  It is clear from this detailed chart  37 and clear from an interpretation of the narrative of  38 the voyage that Cook saw and named Cape Flattery,  39 because it flattered him with the hope of finding a  40 harbour there, because his vessels were in need of  41 some repair but bad weather drove him offshore, and he  42 approached the coast again in the vicinity of what is  43 now Nootka, and so he didn't really see the Srait of  44 Juan de Fuca, but he did spend about a month repairing  45 the ships and taking observations at Nootka Sound.  He  46 set up an observatory there and checks what he  47 describes as the "rate of going" of the chronometers, 19833  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 and that was an important thing to do and it required  2 establishment of a shore observatory to do it, plus  3 telescopic equipment was needed.  When he left  4 Nootka -- perhaps I should make the observation, my  5 lord, in terms of its cartographic implications.  It  6 was an incidental event that really led to a much more  7 detailed mapping of the coast, and that was that while  8 in Nootka members of the ship's company traded nails  9 or bits of brass for sea otter pelts.  It was a normal  10 thing for sailors to do, I suppose, in other words, to  11 get some momentos of the area to take home to families  12 back in England, and that's what happened.  And Cook  13 refers to the potential -- later on in his journal  14 toward the end of the journal reference is made to the  15 interest that Chinese merchants at Macao, a port at  16 which the expedition called on its return home to  17 England, the importance that the Chinese merchants  18 placed on the sea otter pelts, and Cook observes that  19 the potentiality for trade is a matter that would --  20 could not be ignored, or words to that effect, in his  21 journal.  Again, as far as what this --  22 THE COURT:  Sorry.  This is Cook's third voyage, is it?  23 A   Yes.  This is the third and last.  24 THE COURT:  So he had visited Macao on an earlier voyage?  25 A  Well, I should make that --  26 THE COURT:  Did he get to Macao before his death on his third  27 voyage?  28 A   No, he did not, my lord.  I was going to try to make  29 that clear, that the expedition was commanded first of  30 all by Captain Clark, I think it was, and he died of  31 tuberculosis on the way home, and the third in  32 command, and I'm going from memory, I'm not sure  33 whether or not it was King, whatever -- whoever was in  34 command of the expedition, led the expedition homeward  35 via Macao, and that's where this interest was  36 expressed by Chinese merchants.  So although the  37 reference to the potentiality for trade may not  38 entirely have originated with Cook, and I can't begin  39 to know that whether he communicated to his senior  40 officers in that context, in any case it does appear  41 in the journal, and that is the thing that led to a  42 later series of expeditions by merchants, particularly  43 traders, to engage in the sea otter trade of the  44 northwest coast.  But again, as far as what this map,  45 the so-called detailed chart portrays of British  46 Columbia, it's very little.  It's simply Nootka or the  47 lands immediately adjacent to Nootka, and all else is 19834  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 either in what is now U.S. -- well, all else is --  2 yes, either in what is now U.S. territory, or if we  3 extend that westward across the ocean, of course it  4 would be Soviet territory, USSR.  5 THE COURT:  Can you show me where he shows Nootka?  6 A   Yes, my lord.  I'm afraid it doesn't show very  7 clearly, but this would be Nootka, this would be Cape  8 Foulweather, which Cook saw -- that was his first land  9 he saw on the coast after coming up from the Sandwich  10 Islands from Hawaii.  11 THE COURT:  Where is Foulweather?  12 A   This is latitude 50, and what do we have here, so  13 that's 55, so this is 45, 43 1/2, something like that.  14 THE COURT:  Yes, near San Francisco?  15 A   Yes, yes, not far north from San Francisco.  And this  16 would be Cape Flattery, and this is Nootka, and this  17 is what is now what is Alaska here.  18 THE COURT:  Just a moment, please.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  20 Q   And the co-ordinates of Nootka were accurately fixed?  21 A   Yes, they were.  Indeed, it is remarkable that Cook  22 was able to establish the position of Cape Flattery  23 with such accuracy.  If I remember correctly, he was  24 only about 14 nautical miles in error.  Now, he was  25 going with chronometers.  He had two in the  26 expedition.  This is a device, a timekeeping device  27 his predecessors in mapping the northwest coast did  2 8 not have the advantage of.  29 Q   And the publication of his journal with this chart was  30 when?  31 A   This accompanied -- this was one of two charts  32 accompanying the narrative of the expedition, and I  33 think I make reference to that in the bibliography  34 associated with Appendix A, included with Appendix A.  35 MR. RUSH:  My lord, I wonder if the witness could explain, while  36 he's at this point, two things in reference to your  37 lordship's inquiry:  Whether it's the third voyage  38 that's being talked about here, and secondly, what the  39 source of the information is, whether it's Cook's  40 journal or Clark's journal or the Second Lieutenant's  41 journal that is being referred to.  42 A  My lord, if we look at the bibliography, the selected  43 references consulted, we see here Cook J. and King J.,  44 "A Voyage to the Pacific Ocean".  It's a longer title,  45 but I abbreviated it here, three volumes, London,  46 1784, and I think it was published by Castle and I  47 can't remember precisely -- 19835  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  What is this up in the extreme right top corner?  2 A   Yes.  My lord, that's a representation of part of  3 Hudson Bay or -- yes, the northwesterly portion of  4 Hudson Bay.  There's a chesterfield inlet there, and  5 this again stemming from the English voyages to that  6 area.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  Could I tender that as Exhibit 1149-21, my lord.  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  9  10 (EXHIBIT 1149-21 - Map - Author Cook)  11  12 MR. GOLDIE:  13 Q   You then proceed on page 39 to refer to the merchant  14 vessels operating on the coast after 1785, the  15 cartographic record being left you characterize as  16 slim.  And your next reference is to Aaron  17 Arrowsmith's general "Chart of the world on Mercator's  18 Projection", dated 1790, and you state that that is:  19  20 "A synthesis of what was known about the coast  21 of British Columbia to the time of the Spanish  22 occupation of Nootka in 1789."  23  24 Would you turn to that map, please, and enlarge upon  25 the comments that I have made.  26 THE COURT:  Is that number 22?  27 MR. GOLDIE:  22, yes, my lord.  2 8 THE COURT:  Mm-hmm.  29 A   Yes.  Aaron Arrowsmith, as I pointed out, is a -- or  30 was a very careful compiler of map information,  31 careful cartographer, and he used all the available --  32 all the sources that were available to him in the  33 preparation of this map.  And when I say "sources", in  34 this case the obvious sources are those that relate to  35 Hearne's voyage to the copper mine -- to the mouth of  36 the copper mine or to the Arctic Ocean and northward  37 from the Hudson Bay area but by a chain of lakes  38 inland.  It also -- the sources also relate to  39 Mackenzie's travels down what he called "The River of  40 Disappointment" on the Mackenzie River to the Arctic  41 Ocean, and it shows the results not only of Cook and  42 others' exploration of the coast, but more  43 particularly incorporates the cartographic results --  44 or the information, rather, incorporates the  45 information related to the maritime fur trade that  46 preceded in what -- for the area we now recognize as  47 British Columbia, that preceded the overland fur 19836  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 trade.  We see, for example, the Queen Charlotte  2 Islands are represented as islands and named the Queen  3 Charlottes, and as it states on the map "Discovered by  4 Captain Dixon, 1787".  Nathaniel Portlock and George  5 Dixon were two of the officers who had served with  6 Cook, and they led a trading expedition under licence  7 of the British -- I think what's called the South Sea  8 Company.  In any case, the British company, they  9 sailed under that licence, and they engaged in the  10 maritime fur trade.  So that the Queen Charlotte  11 Island had been identified as an island.  Vancouver  12 Island, curiously enough, had not been identified as  13 an island at this stage.  Cook was not aware that  14 Nootka was on an island, and it took some years before  15 it was recognized that Vancouver Island indeed is an  16 island.  We see also on this map, if we cast our eyes  17 inland from the coast, a tentative Sea of the West  18 shown by a feature that looks I suppose somewhat like  19 the stomach of a ruminant animal.  Anyway, just east  20 of the label "Entrance of Juan de Fuca" there is a  21 dotted line or series of dotted lines there that  22 suggest the Sea of the West, and flowing into that  23 sea, that tentatively depicted sea, is the R. Oregan.  24 Now, that name does appear on the river shown flowing  25 westward into that tentative waterbody.  We also see  26 the names Quivira and Teguayo on this map, and  27 Moseemlek, so these names partly originating in  28 fiction in the case of Moseemlek.  2 9 THE COURT:  I haven't found Moseemlek yet.  30 A   Sorry, my lord.  If one can see the word Quivira,  31 which is in quite bold lettering, in the -- on the  32 land area in the lower part of the map but clear of  33 the river lettering -- river line work, my lord.  34 THE COURT:  The river?  35 A   The word Quivira.  36 THE COURT:  I see Quivira, yes?  37 A   Yes.  So south of that you see a couple of horizontal  38 lines across the map, and between those two lines the  39 word Teguayo?  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  42 Q   So these two names, Quivira and Teguayo are  43 cartographic remnants of the results of the Coronado  44 expedition.  Then if one casts one's eye northward of  45 Quivira and across the River Oregan, or if one wishes  46 it, River of the West, one sees the word Moseemlek?  47 THE COURT:  Oh, yes. 19837  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A  And that again relates to the La Honton fiction.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  3 Q   What's the date of this map?  4 A   1790.  5 Q   If I may say so, my lord, this is merely a portion of  6 a much larger -- what in fact is a much larger map  7 entitled "Chart of the world on Mercator's  8 projection".  It's a massive compilation, cartographic  9 compilation.  10 A   One final thing, my lord, if I may, it's worth noting  11 that the distance, the apparent distance between Lake  12 Athabaska, which does appear on the map, it's --  13 Q   It's right in the centre of the map going directly  14 north from Moseemleks?  15 A   Yes.  If one casts one's eye directly north from  16 Moseemleks, there is a lake represented there, Lake  17 Athabaska.  And there is also a suggestion at least of  18 Great Slave Lake lying to the northwest of Athabaska.  19 The point I wish to make is that the apparent distance  20 between those features and of course the Mackenzie  21 River and the west coast is comparatively short.  In  22 other words, this represents again accumulative  23 underestimates of the longitude for features in land  24 from the east coast, and at this stage, 1790, no  25 European exploration had taken place inland from the  26 west coast, so there was this discrepancy, and I  27 believe that this map portrays very well that kind of  28 discrepancy related to the overestimation of  29 longitude.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  Mm-hmm.  My lord, I tender that as Exhibit 1149-22.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32  33 (EXHIBIT 1149-22 - Map - Author A. Arrowsmith)  34  35 MR. GOLDIE:  36 Q   By the way, Arrowsmith's name crops up again.  Would  37 you tell us a little something about Arrowsmith?  38 A   Yes.  Arrowsmith had a map studio, map compilation  39 centre.  He was, as I pointed out, a very careful  40 scholar.  He attained considerable stature among  41 cartographers of his time in England and beyond the  42 shores of England.  He established a map publishing  43 business that extended for over a period of many  44 years, and he produced for his time probably the best  45 maps available, that is the best maps for any European  46 country available for northwest America.  And there  47 were a series of maps that Aaron Arrowsmith, founder 1983?  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  RUSH:  A  THE COURT  A  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  COURT  COURT  A  COURT  A  of the firm, prepared, and these have been widely  consulted, and indeed, I've made reference to some of  them in Appendix A.  And his nephew, John Arrowsmith,  carried on the family tradition and he produced some  excellent maps of British Columbia and adjacent areas.  And I'll make reference to one or two of those -- have  made reference to one or two of those in later  sections of Appendix A, my lord.  I wonder if the witness could give us the source of  the information about the Arrowsmith family?  Arrowsmith is widely referred to in the literature,  and I think again if one refers to references by  Tooley, R.V. Tooley, Tooley's Dictionary of Map  Makers, and by Crone on page 61 of Appendix A, Crone,  G.R., "Maps and Their Makers", London, 1966.  :  These lines out of the Pacific, they're depictions  of supposed course of various explorers, are they?  Yes, my lord.  Tracks of the various vessels.  I think  principally displayed are those associated with Cook,  but there are others as well.  :  Yes.  :  It doesn't mention Nootka?  Well, yes.  I think, my lord, if you look at the coast  line, about the central part of the coast line and  cast your eyes down from the Queen Charlottes, there  is a representation of the Queen Charlottes.  :  Yes?  You come to a place called Nootka or King George's  Sound.  I see, yes.  COURT:  GOLDIE:  Q   I'm going to show you a reproduction of a map from the  National Public Archives.  It's entitled "Chart of the  World on Mercator's Projection", exhibiting all the  new discoveries to the present time with the tracks of  the most distinguished navigators since the years 1700  carefully collected.  Is it from this that the map 22  is a part?  A   Yes, indeed.  Under the title the statement reads  "Compiled and Published by A. Arrowsmith, Geographer",  and that indeed is a reproduction of part of Aaron  Arrosmith's great chart of the world and Mercator's  proj ection.  Q   Now, the scale of what I have just shown you, which is  the -- identified as coming from the public archives,  and map 22, which is -- you tell us is a part of it,  is different.  Map 22 seems to be an enlargement; is 19839  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 that correct?  2 A   Yes.  I think to put it more correctly, sir, this copy  3 is a reduction.  4 Q   I see.  5 A   Of part, because the original map, Arrowsmith's map,  6 is very large.  7 Q   Well, then map 22 is closer to the scale of the  8 original map?  9 A   That's correct.  10 Q   And what I have placed in front of you is a reduction  11 of the original map?  12 A   Yes, a reduction of a portion of the original map.  13 Q   I see.  14 THE COURT:  Just a portion?  15 A   Yes, my lord.  16 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, that's correct.  All right, thank you.  17 MR. RUSH:  Just before my friend goes on, it's unclear to me  18 whether or not the portion that is in map 22 is in  19 fact the duplication of the size of the map.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  Of the original?  21 MR. RUSH:  Of the scale of the original, yes.  I didn't  22 understand the witness to say that.  23 A   Clarify, please.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  25 Q   Do you understand Mr. Rush's question, Dr. Farley?  2 6          A   No.  27 Q   He wants to know if the scale of map 22 is the same as  28 the original map, a copy of which is in the Public  2 9              Archives?  30 A   I can't say that it is exactly that scale, but it is  31 close to that scale, and by close I can't off the top  32 of my head give numbers, you know, one to eight  33 million, one to ten million.  All I can say is that it  34 is close to the scale of the original, my lord.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  My lord, I think I would — I'm going  36 to tender the extract which is from the Public  37 Archives -- I guess they're both from the Public  38 Archives, but the one that is marked is from the  39 Public Archives, as possibly 1149-22 Part 2.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 1149-22 Part 2 - Extract from Public  43 Archives - Reproduction of a portion of  4 4 Arrowsmith's map)  45  46 MR. RUSH:  My lord, this map is a portion of the "Chart of the  47 world on Mercator's projection".  Does my friend have 19840  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 the other pieces to this?  2 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  Subject to be being corrected by Miss  3 Sigurdson at a later point, I believe I'm correct in  4 saying that's all we have.  5 THE COURT:  Where was it -- would it be -- you got it from the  6 archives?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  8 THE COURT:  Presumably the whole map is in the archives?  9 MR. GOLDIE:  10 Q   Am I correct in my assumption that the whole map is in  11 the archives?  12 A   In the national archives, my lord, in Ottawa, and  13 there may be a copy in the provincial archives in  14 Victoria, but I cannot be sure of that.  I did have in  15 the recent past some difficulty locating the 1790  16 version of the Arrowsmith map.  17 MR. RUSH:  Perhaps the witness could advise if there was a  18 reproduction of the whole thing in any source that  19 he's aware of?  20 MR. GOLDIE:  21 Q   Well, there's a reproduction of the entire map in the  22 Public Archives; is that correct?  23 A   Yes.  It's a copy.  If I may so, sir, it's a copy of  24 the original map.  I mean Arrowsmith, when he printed  25 these maps, just didn't do one.  I don't know how many  26 were published or were printed, but the National  27 Archives in Ottawa has one of them.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  All right, thank you.  Now —  29 THE COURT:  Do you want to start another map, Mr. Goldie, or  30 should we adjourn?  31 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  I am just going to come to another one, my  32 lord.  33 THE COURT:  All right.  34 MR. GOLDIE: Well, yes, I see.  35 THE COURT:  All right.  Two o'clock, please.  36 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  37 2:00 p.m.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 19841  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT TAKEN AT 12:30)  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein transcribed to the  6 best of my skill and ability  7  8  9  10  11 Graham D. Parker  12 Official Reporter  13 United Reporting Services Ltd.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 19842  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord.  5 Q   Dr. Farley, before we go on I'd like you to turn back  6 to map Exhibit 1149 - 22 part two, the full size or  7 the larger size reproduction of Arrowsmith's chart or  8 map.  9 A   Yes.  Yes.  10 Q   All right.  Here, I'll put it before you.  Now, I want  11 to make sure that I understood.  You made your  12 observation about the distortion of the distances  13 caused by difficulties in fixing the longitudinal  14 meridians.  If I understand it correctly, there is an  15 over estimate of the distance east of Lake Athabasca  16 represented on this map; is that correct?  17 A   That's correct.  18 THE COURT:  East of Lake Athabasca?  19 A   Yes, my lord.  There's an over estimation of the  20 distance.  To put it in simple terms, my lord, if one  21 were to scale from this map the represented distance  22 between Lake Athabasca and the eastern coast of  23 Labrador that value would be too large if we were to  24 take the same value on a modern map, or the distance  25 between two points and scale that from a modern map.  26 There is, in essence, an over estimation of distance  27 from the East Coast inland to these various features.  28 And because by the time this map was published  29 navigators were carrying chronometers and could  30 therefore establish the longitudinal of the west  31 coast.  We could take it that the west coast  32 representation is true in terms of longitudinal --  33 both longitudinal and latitudinal positioning.  So  34 what we have is a representation that suggests from  35 the map that the distance between the mountains and  36 the west coast is shorter than it actually is.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  38 Q   Well, let me see if I've got the co-relative of the  39 over estimation between Lake Athabasca on the east  40 coast.  Does that mean that the distance between Lake  41 Athabasca and the west coast is underestimated on this  42 map?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And that the origin of those two distortions is again  45 what?  46 A   Sorry.  Would you repeat the question.  47 Q   Well, what -- I think you explained this, but I want 19843  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 to get it straight in my own mind.  What is the reason  2 for that over estimation of distance between the east  3 coast on Lake Athabasca, or features like it?  4 A  A cumulative error that is attributable again to the  5 difficulty of longitudinal determination.  It's --  6 well, I think, as simply as I can put it, it's the  7 problem with determining the longitude.  8 Q   Which had been solved at the time Cook was on the --  9 A   Yes, on the Pacific.  10 Q   On the west coast?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   All right.  Now, going back to your report you had --  13 yes.  Well, you have it in your report.  You state in  14 the middle of page 40:  15  16 "The under estimation of distance between  17 Athabasca Lake and the west coast was  18 characteristic of the time.  The actual  19 distance was not appreciated until Alexander  20 Mackenzie bridged the gap three years after the  21 map was published."  22  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Now, at the bottom of page 40 and over on to page 41  25 you indicate the advances which took place between  26 1790 and 1974 by reference to two maps; 23A and 23B.  27 Could we turn to those, please.  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Firstly, before you make any observations with respect  30 to these maps what is their origin and/or source?  31 A   I compiled them in connection with a study I did some  32 years ago of the -- concerning the historical --  33 historical cartography of British Columbia.  34 Q   And these were maps which in their published form are  35 included in the Natural Resources Atlas of what year?  36 A   These particular maps were not included in the Natural  37 Resources Atlas.  3 8 Q   Oh.  39 A   They accompanied the atlas of map plates, or they were  40 included rather in the atlas -- no.  Sorry.  They were  41 not included in the atlas of map plates.  They were  42 included in the volume representing the substance of  43 my study on the historical cartography of British  44 Columbia.  45 Q   Right.  Thank you.  Could you just sketch out very  46 briefly for his lordship the nature of the work that  47 you undertook in the preparation of these two maps? 19844  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  What I wished to do -- the purpose in making  2 this compilation was to illustrate -- illustrate  3 graphically the changes that had occurred in knowledge  4 of British Columbia, and particularly in this case it  5 applied to knowledge of the coast.  If we look at the  6 first of these two maps titled "The Straits Are  7 Examined" this is referring to the Strait of Georgia  8 and the strait of -- or what is now known as Juan de  9 Fuca Strait.  We see that there is a little reduction  10 in the otherwise black outline that applies to the  11 land of Vancouver Island and a little bit to the  12 mainland, and around the periphery of the Queen  13 Charlotte Islands.  And then again in the -- what is  14 now the Alaskan Panhandle from Baranof Island  15 northward to Cross Sound we can see that there was  16 land there that had been discovered, whereas most of  17 the coast line of British Columbia is still in the  18 realm of ignorance.  19 If we then move from that map to the next one  20 which shows, as the title says, "The Coast Completed  21 1792 to '94" we see a remarkable contrast that  22 resulted from the explorations of the later Spanish  23 expeditions.  Latest phase of the Spanish exploration  24 of the coasts and indeed the English explorations of  25 that coast.  There were later, not so explorations,  26 but details done by hydrographers.  In essence, this  27 represents the culmination of the last phase of  28 Spanish exploration and the accompanying English  29 exploration on the coast up until -- up to the end of  30 1794.  You -- I may say in connection with the second  31 map there is the suggestion on this map -- well, the  32 indication that we have information by this date of  33 Mackenzie's exploration from -- from Athabasca country  34 via the Peace River, the upper Fraser and the western  35 river over to the vicinity of Bella Coola, North  36 Pentook Arm.  We have that.  And then in the  37 southeastern part of the map a small clear area that  38 indicates the approximate route that Peter Fidler had  39 taken in the period 1792 to '93.  40 Q   All right.  You point out on page 41 of your report  41 that neither the Spanish nor the English seemed to  42 have suspected the presence of the Fraser and you  43 quote from Vancouver's journal.  And I quote:  44  45 "They quitted this small river which, with the  46 other in Port Essington observed in Mr.  47 Whidbey's late excursion, are the only two 19845  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46    ]  MR. RUSH  47  A  streams that had yet been discovered to the  north of the river Columbia."  You've identified the two rivers as the Nass and  the Skeena; is that correct?  Yes.  Now, somewhere I've seen the term Observatory Inlet.  Can you tell his lordship where that is, and why it is  so named?  Yes.  To locate Observatory Inlet on this map --  You're looking at 23B, are you?  Yes.  Map 23B.  If one looks at Dixon Entrance, that is between Queen  Charlotte Island and the southern Panhandle of Alaska,  and then looks along that dashed and dotted line that  represents, or is meant to represent the international  boundary, and follow that up the arm of the ocean to a  place called Stewart, that -- that body of water  extending from Stewart to Dixon Entrance is  Observatory Inlet.  M'hm.  Next to it is -- that is the inlet next to it is  Portland Canal.  Now, the reason it was called  Observatory -- named Observatory by Vancouver is that  it was at that place, or at a point along that inlet  that he set up his observatory on shore in order to  check the rate of going of the chronometers.  Because  clearly this was a very important matter to determine  the rate on the chronometers since they could not be  set.  They were not to be touched in the sense of any  attempt to change the time on them.  And so if they  were going fast, running fast that would cause an  error in the determination of the longditude.  If they  they were going slow it would cause an error.  So it  was important to check the rate -- rate of  acceleration or deceleration of the chronometers, and  to do that he had to set up an observatory on shore.  I take it it's self-evident that the topographic  information with respect to lakes and rivers is  current?  Yes.  Yes, it is.  I did not in that base map include  the Peace River reservoir or the reservoir in the  Columbia, the McNaughton Lake.  I did not do that.  I  thought it would be appropriate rather to show just  the base hydrology as it existed in times earlier.  What is the date of the map base?  Probably 1960. 19846  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   And the -- am I correct in my understanding that the  3 only river which flows into Observatory Inlet is the  4 Nass?  5 A   The Nass flows into Portland Canal.  There is a river  6 that flows into Observatory Inlet, but I did not -- it  7 was generalized out in the preparation of this map,  8 because it was too small a stream, or thought at that  9 time to be too small a stream to include.  10 Q   I see Portland Canal enters into Observatory Inlet?  11 A   Yes.  The mouth of the two inlets merge and then  12 become an estuary, a wide estuary.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  My lord, I tender 23A as Exhibit  14 1149-23A, and 23B as 1149-23B.  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16  17 (EXHIBIT 1149-23A:  Map - Author Farley)  18  19 (EXHIBIT 1149-23B:  Map - Author Farley)  20  21 MR. GOLDIE:  22 Q   Before we leave either one of those, and let's just  23 take 23B, you have identified the Strait of Georgia.  24 At one time was that not called the Gulf of Georgia?  25 A   Yes, indeed it was.  Vancouver so named it.  But at  26 the time the base map for this portrayal was prepared  27 the name had been officially stated by the Geographic  28 Board of Names to be the Strait of Georgia.  29 Q   What's the difference between a gulf and a strait?  30 A  Well, a gulf would have been abounded at its head.  A  31 strait would be a waterway between two bodies of land  32 or an island and the mainland, whereas a gulf would  33 have been abounded at its head.  34 Q   So do I take it from that when Vancouver so named the  35 body of water or gulf that he thought at that time  36 that it was abounded at its head by land?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Thank you.  Now, on page 42 you talk about claims to  39 sovereignty.  And you quote Cook's instructions, and  40 you go on to discuss the visits by Bering's and the  41 establishment of a Russian establishment at Kodiak  42 Island four years after Cook's visit?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And by 1788 posts as far east as Prince William Sound  45 at the head of the Gulf of Alaska?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And other stations or posts of the Russian American 19847  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Fur Company you identify at page 43?  A   Yes.  Q   And the Spanish you refer to at page 43.  And I think  you mentioned most, if not all, of those places.  Then  you refer to Cook.  Is there anything else that you  want to enlarge upon there?  Possibly you might  enlarge upon the reference to the names that Vancouver  gave, or that were given following Vancouver's  voyages.  You've set them out at the top of page 44.  A   Yes.  These are names that Vancouver did indeed apply,  and those names can be, of course, found in the  narrative of the voyage.  And as I've stated, the  country northward of 45 -- excuse me.  Referring now  to Possession Sound, which is now in the State of  Washington, where Vancouver had claimed possession.  And as I've stated here:  "In 1792 Vancouver entered and named Possession  Sound, a branch of Admiralty Inlet, latitude  approximately 48 degrees north.  There he laid  claim, in the name of Britain, to the country  north of 30 degress 20 minutes north, naming  that part northward of 45 degrees north 'New  Georgia'.  This was considered to be the  northern part of 'New Albion' of Drake's day."  In other words, Drake had applied the term New  Albion to the land adjacent to the coast when he was  in the vicinity of San Francisco Bay, Drake's Bay.  Then Cook applied the designation New Hanover.  Later  on as they progressed in a survey up the coast to the  country extending between Desolation Sound, which is  not far north of Vancouver, and Gardner Canal, which  lies east of the Queen Charlotte Islands.  Q   You say Cook gave it that name?  A   No.  Vancouver.  Q   Yes.  I'm sorry.  Thank you.  THE COURT:  Can you tell me the date when Drake was at Drake's  Bay?  I could, my lord, if you would give me a moment.  Oh, no.  I'm sorry.  I don't know.  I would not care --  Yes.  All right.  To offer a guess at it.  All right.  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT:  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   All right  And then you say that: 19848  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  ]  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  MR. RUSH:  15  16  THE COURT:  17  18  A  19  20  MR. GOLDIE  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  MR. RUSH:  44  45  46  47  ]  "Vancouver applied the name 'New Norfolk' to  the country between New Cornwall and Cross  Sound."  Yes.  Cross Sound being?  That would be the northern -- in the northern part of  the Alaska peninsula.  And indeed if one looks back to  map 23A or map 23B one can see the label Cross Sound  in about latitude 58 north.  Oh, yes.  So that's toward the northern end of the Alaska --  what we recognize today as the Alaska Panhandle.  And, my lord, what's the source of information of the  observations just made?  The source of the information about Vancouver's  naming of these locations.  Oh, that would be in the journal, the narrative of the  expedition which is listed.  The voyage of discovery, six volumes, London, 1801?  Yes, that's the one.  Thank you.  All right.  Now, the next section you deal with is  "Approach from Landward".  We are talking about the  approach to the northwest coast of North America  landward?  Yes.  And that runs through to the conclusion of your  report.  I'm sorry, it runs through to page 52?  Yes.  Would you go through that.  On page 44 you refer to  the effect of the fur trade, and you state at the  bottom of the page:  "From them overland penetration was finally  extended to the Arctic Ocean via the Mackenzie  River and to the Pacific via the Peace and  Fraser River systems."  Then there's a footnote which you refer to  exploration which is in what is now the United States?  Yes.  My lord, I took objection in respect of the report  when it was tendered, and I take objection to all of  this part basically offending your lordship's ruling  with regard to the -- what you described as the  matters of broad inference which may be open to 19849  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 serious disagreement or subsequent revision.  And  2 this, I think, fell into that category of what you  3 called it on the top of page 18 of the decision which  4 you rendered on the 14th of July as "the broad sweep  5 of history which is so often subject to learned  6 disagreement and revision."  And, in my submission, my  7 lord, this whole area falls into the category, and  8 unless there are specific documents to which the  9 witness is directed and for which the context can be  10 specifically attributed, in my submission, all of that  11 is objectionable.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my lord, evidence was given of this by Mr.  13 Morrison.  I don't recall any aspects of this which  14 are -- are in issue.  I've yet to detect anything in  15 here which is in issue.  If my friend can point out to  16 me anything which is stated in this by the witness  17 then we can debate the particular, but there is  18 nothing in here other than the context of exploration  19 leading to the mapping which the witness is going to  20 be discussing from the landward side.  I've never  21 heard anybody suggest that the approach from the  22 landward was by a group of tourists.  23 THE COURT:  I'm going to reserve on the objection.  I think that  24 most of this has been given in slightly different  25 form.  And I'm going to keep my ruling about the broad  26 sweep of history very much in mind, but I notice that  27 there's a reference on page 24 to Lewis and Clark and  28 Meriweather, and to the extent that there are  29 references and there are statements of fact about  30 which the witness can be cross-examined it will, in my  31 view, be admissible.  If it lacks that factual flavor  32 at the end of the day then it will not be admitted,  33 but I'll have to delete it in part of the process I  34 described as separating the wheat from the chaff.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  I don't propose to go into this in detail, my lord.  36 I have stated my understanding of it, that it is the  37 context which gave rise to the mapping of the  38 northwest coast from the -- from the landward side.  39 MR. RUSH:  But, my lord, just on the point Dr. Ray was called  40 who was an expert in the Hudson's Bay fur trade, and  41 some of this evidence did come from Dr. Rae, but his  42 focus was in the context specifically of his knowledge  43 of specific journals and post journals, et cetera, in  44 the Bulkley Skeena region.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I'm aware of that, my lord.  Dr. Ray's an  46 historian, he's not a cartographer.  He has no  47 experience in the field of what Dr. Farley is talking 19850  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 about, and it's as I said, I repeat, this is the  2 context for Dr. Farley's evidence.  3 THE COURT:  I don't have any -- much trouble with most of this.  4 References to Kelsey and Henday and things of that  5 kind are pretty well accepted, I think.  I've been  6 hearing about them for years.  There's nothing new --  7 I don't think there's anything new in any of this.  8 And to the extent that it might form part of the stock  9 and trade of a cartographer I think it's admissible.  10 To the extent that it goes down in the boundless  11 theories of history that are controversial then it's  12 not admissible.  I can't make that determination now.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  The witness did say his evidence was gleaned from  14 Kelsey and Henday.  He's already spoken of them.  He's  15 gone to their journals.  He's looked at them.  He's  16 endeavored to locate from them where they were all  17 within the context of his discipline.  18 Q   Dr. Farley, at page 47 —  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   -- You make reference to Samuel Hearne.  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And you say:  23  24 He had also confirmed a growing concept of the  25 great width of the American continent."  26  27 And you quote him.  That quotation is from his --  28 his published account of his journey from Prince of  29 Wales' Fort?  30 A   Yes, it is.  31 Q   And the -- where in relation to Hearne when he was  32 speaking can you -- can you tell us about where he was  33 when he said:  34  35 "When I was at my greatest Western distance,  36 upward of 500 miles from Prince of Wales' Fort,  37 the natives, my guides well knew that many  38 tribes of Indians lay to the West of us, and  39 they knew no end to the land in that  40 direction."  41  42 Could you tell us just approximately where he was?  43 A   He was well west of the hundreth meridian, which can  44 be taken as the -- roughly speaking the centre line --  45 approximately speaking the centre line of the North  46 American continent.  So he was west of that.  And  47 probably he was closer to 110 degrees west. 19851  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Well, you're looking at -- or can we use map 24 as  2 your reference?  3 A   Yes.  I should have made that point clear.  I felt  4 that it would be appropriate to have some map  5 reference before me so I've turned to map 24.  That is  6 map 24 in my sequence of map numbering.  7 Q   So you think -- you place him in terms of my question  8 at close to the 110th meridian when he made this  9 statement which you quote?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Thank you.  12 THE COURT:  Is the Copper Mine River west of that meridian?  13 A  As portrayed on the map -- this is a commercial  14 product, my lord -- on this map by William Faden dated  15 1785 the Copper Mine is shown as about the 120th  16 meridian, roughly speaking, the mouth of the Copper  17 Mine.  18 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  Thank you.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  20 Q   All right.  Now, you say with respect to that map that  21 embodies the information that Hearne provided?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And you say that while it is liberally -- this is page  24 48, my lord.  25  26 "While it is liberally spiced with the old  27 myths and confusions about the American west,  28 Faden's work is creditable."  29  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Do you want to very briefly identify some of the myths  32 that he still gives credit to?  While -- I see your  33 old friend Mozeemlecks there.  34 A  And so are the names Quivira and Teguayo or Teguas.  35 As indicated on Faden's map we are dealing with the  36 latter part of the eighteenth century.  Again the date  37 of this map was 1785.  The River of the West, which it  38 appeared on the Arrowsmith map as the Oregon River,  39 the River of the West is shown.  There is a  40 tentative -- excuse me.  Tentative Sea of the West, or  41 an entrance rather that is shown by the dotted line.  42 The dotted lines begins where the river -- the word  43 "river" -- the upper case R and river starts.  That is  44 to say at about the 120th meridian.  If we extend that  45 we can see River of the West.  And just, in other  46 words, to the west of where the author has indicated  47 Mozeemlecks. 19852  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q   Right.  Thank you.  A   So there's a good deal of confusion there shown on the  map still at this late date.  THE COURT:  I haven't found Mozeemlecks yet.  Oh, I'm sorry,  MR. GOLDIE:  I'm getting so that's the first thing I see.  THE COURT:  Just above the River of the West?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, my lord.  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  A   If I may, my lord, while we have this map in front of  us we can see that although the west coast, or what is  now British Columbia is only crudely shown, there  is -- there is reference there to, or some reflection,  I should say, of Cook's visit, because the name Nootka  is apparent, and it was Nootka or King George's Sound  where Captain Cook repaired in 1778.  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Could we have that marked, my lord, as  Exhibit 1149-24.  THE COURT:  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 1149-24:  Map  Author Faden)  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Now, you next go on to discuss the progression of maps  that Arrowsmith was responsible for one way or  another, and you refer to his map of 1795, which I  don't think is in your collection.  I'm sorry.  The 1802.  Yes.  1802 Arrowsmith.  And that is map 25?  Map 25, yes.  This is 1802?  18 02, my lord.  And this is Arrowsmith?  This is Aaron Arrowsmith, my lord.  You state that he had new information to work with.  That would be Mackenzie?  Yes.  David Thompson.  David Thompson was with the Northwest  Company, was he?  Was with -- yes, David Thompson was at that time with  the Northwest Company.  Q   And this map you state was drawn on the same base as  that of 1795?  A   Yes.  Q   But superimposed the detail that had come to his  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  Q  A  Q  A 19853  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 attention in the intervening period?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Would you comment briefly on that map, please?  4 A   Yes.  We can see the travels of Samuel Hearne  5 represented west of Hudson Bay.  That first line, we  6 might say it's a line of information that is --  7 there's streams and names shown.  And then at the top  8 of that column of information, or that general line of  9 information is the words "The Sea", and that relates  10 to Hearne's travels in 1774.  Then to the west of that  11 is the representation of the Mackenzie River, and in  12 part at least of the Mackenzie delta, and again the  13 words "The Sea" are legible on the map.  I cannot read  14 the fine print there.  The representation of Great  15 Slave Lake is -- shows some advance.  And that is  16 based upon the work of Peter Pond, another independent  17 fur trader.  And Athabasca Lake is shown.  And then,  18 of course, the Peace River that Mackenzie followed to  19 the Fraser.  And the -- the river that Mackenzie  20 called the Bad River from -- following from the Peace  21 River, following the Parsnip and various other streams  22 he reached the upper Fraser, and then travelled that  23 portion of the Fraser River, and then crossed overland  24 because the Indian people with whom he was in contact  25 advised him that the Fraser River was a difficult one  26 to follow.  So he abandoned the Fraser and travelled  27 overland via the Blackwater and the Bella Coola -- the  28 Burton River and the Bella Coola to Port Kintkarnum  29 (phonetic) on the coast.  30 Q   Dr. Farley, you state on page 49 that this map, that  31 is to say map 25:  32  33 "May be said to represent an essentially  34 complete graphic summary of what was known of  35 northwest America at the threshold of the  36 nineteenth century."  37  38 And that is your opinion, is it?  39 A   Yes, that is my opinion.  40 Q   And you state that:  41  42 "Within a decade of its publication, Northwest  43 Company traders had occupied New Caledonia,  44 Simon Fraser had descended Mackenzie's  45 'Tacoutche Tesse', Thompson had mapped the  46 Columiba and Lewis and Clark had crossed the  47 continent for the government of the United 19854  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 States of America."  2  3 And you go on to the first half of the nineteenth  4 century and the effects of the amalgamation of the  5 Northwest Company in 1821?  6 A   Yes.  7 THE COURT:  Are you leaving this map, Mr. Goldie?  8 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  I should — I should come back to that in a  9 minute, my lord.  And perhaps I ought to ask that it  10 be tendered at this point.  11  12 (EXHIBIT 1149-25:  Map - Author Arrowsmith)  13  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  But do I understand the west coast  15 that's shown on the extreme left has been superimposed  16 on the previous map, or is this line that runs down  17 the -- vertically down from, I guess it's the  18 Mackenzie River, what is that heavy line?  19 A   Oh, yes, my lord.  The line that runs through the  20 Queen Charlotte Islands as shown, is that the line?  21 THE COURT:  No.  No.  22 A   The line of mountains, perhaps, my lord.  23 THE COURT:  Oh, is that a line of mountains?  24 A   Oh, I understand.  This line you're referring to.  25 THE COURT:  What is this heavy marking going out to the coast  26 just off the north tip of Vancouver Island?  27 A   That's Mackenzie's route.  This information portrayed  28 by Arrowsmith stems from Mackenzie's travels to the  29 coast.  3 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   The question I wanted to put to you, Doctor, I think  33 you now answered, is that in this map Arrowsmith  34 depicted information which he had at hand and was  35 not -- put it another way, is there any guess work  36 that he has plotted on this map?  37 A   There is no guess work of which I'm aware on this map.  38 As I pointed out previously, Arrowsmith was a very  39 capable researcher and scholar, as well as a  40 cartographer in the sense of a maker of maps.  I find  41 nothing on this map to persuade me that he took  42 account of a spurious report, or at least account of  43 alleged travels, and that kind of thing.  But we have  44 to put this in context remembering that the date of  45 this -- by this date, again 1802 edition of the  46 Arrowsmith map, the old notions even of Tigawo  47 (phonetic) and Sebolla (phonetic), and the like, that 19855  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 was pretty much behind cartographers.  So one finds on  2 contemporary maps, that is of this date, around 1800,  3 a shadowy images of these old myths and beliefs, but  4 they soon disappeared.  That is after 1800 they  5 quickly disappeared, because by that time there was  6 factual information that the cartographers could  7 resort to.  They didn't have to rely upon guess work.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  9 Q   Now, you say on page 50 after the amalgamation of the  10 two rifle companies in 1821 --  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   That there are many explorations and reconnaissance  13 surveys were carried out and maps made and with broad  14 outlines of interior topography and drainage were  15 established well enough for the purposes of the trade,  16 this information round expression slowly, and when it  17 did the products of the Arrowsmith establishment led  18 the way.  And you make reference to Arrowsmith's map  19 of 1814, which portrays the Columbia drainage?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Now, going on to -- continuing with the Arrowsmith  22 maps.  Your next map is 1826?  23 A   Yes.  1824 edition.  It's map number 26.  24 Q   I see.  Yes.  Thank you.  Can you tell his lordship  25 what is there under map 26?  26 A   Yes.  My lord, we see represented on this map names  27 such as New Caledonia where the Nor-Westers had by  28 this date, that is by 1824, had set up a number of fur  29 trading posts; Fort St. James, at McLeod Lake, Fort  30 Fraser, Fort George and, of course, there were posts  31 farther south in what later became American territory.  32 And indeed by 1824 Fort Vancouver was the main  33 headquarters for operations of the Northwest Company,  34 because the amalgamation between the Nor-Westers and  35 the Hudson Bay Company occurred in 1821.  So I was  36 incorrect in my previous statement by this date  37 amalgamated fur trading concerns came under the name  38 Hudson's Bay Company.  So after the amalgamation there  39 was available talent, and one might say energy,  40 available for the pursuit of exploration not for its  41 own sake, but rather in connection with the process of  42 fur gathering.  I think it important to mention the  43 context that prior to amalgamation there had been a  44 great deal of competition, some of it bitter, between  45 the two major companies; the Northwest Company and the  4 6 Hudson's Bay Company.  Now after amalgamation the  47 economic fur trading scene was -- could be said to 19856  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 have been more peaceful and there were therefore  2 opportunities for the more efficient conduct of the  3 fur trade.  And we see a fall out from that in the  4 sense of map representation based upon traders'  5 accounts.  We see on this map draining from New  6 Caledonia -- yes, from -- we see drainage.  If one can  7 spot the words "New Caledonia" on the map this would  8 be -- if one casts one's eye eastward from the Queen  9 Charlotte Islands to the mainland and a place where  10 there's not much other line work to confuse the  11 lettering one can see New Caledonia.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  I have that.  13 A  And the 0 in Caledonia from there westward we see the  14 tentative representation of a stream, and that is  15 labelled Simpson's R.  And that is shown as draining  16 into Observatory Inlet and to one arm of it.  I  17 can't -- I can't see any lettering detail other than  18 Observatory Inlet.  Now, to the north above the label  19 Simpson's River is a name that applied to the  20 Indian -- was applied by the cartographer to the  21 Indians there, and that is Siccanies.  When I said it  22 was applied by the cartographer clearly he's relying  23 on traders' reports for that.  Siccanies.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  25 Q   From a previous map the Simpson's River -- I'm sorry.  26 The river that drains into Observatory Inlet is the  27 Nass, but --  28 MR. RUSH:  No, that's not right.  That's not the evidence.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  Not Observatory Inlet.  Portland Canal.  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Portland Canal.  In your report you identify Simpson's  32 River as what is later the Skeena.  And if that's so  33 then we're looking at the river that drains into the  34 ocean at a considerably more southern post; is that  35 right?  36 A   Did I -- did I speak of this in my appendix A?  37 Q   Yes.  Page 51.  38 A   Page 51.  Oh, yes.  Yes.  Right.  Tentative outline of  39 Simpson's River, Skeena River.  Yes, that is a  40 tentative outline.  And it may be -- it may be that in  41 making that statement Simpson's River Skeena River  42 I've made a misstatment.  I stand to be corrected on  43 that.  But when I studied the map I thought right,  44 that's an early representation of the Skeena River,  45 but then I read the lettering and it says Simpson's  46 River, and that may be the Nass River.  47 Q   And then you say: 19857  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 "The Canadian portion of the Columbia River is  2 given something of its true form though lacking  3 the precision of Thompson's work."  4  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   That came -- the full detail of that then came after  7 this map?  8 A   Yes.  Yes.  We see that's particularly true of the  9 representation of Kootenay Lake.  I know it's hard to  10 see on this copy, but there is a label there called  11 Flat -- Flat Bow Lake, which is a primitive portrayal  12 of the -- of Kootenay Lake.  We see the Arrow Lakes  13 not badly represented, and something of Okanagan Lake  14 to the west.  But then east of the Arrow Lakes there's  15 a peculiarly figured feature called Flat Bow Lake.  16 Q   M'hm.  17 A  My lord, for reference this is about the --  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  I see it.  19 A   Oh, thank you.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  I tender that, my lord, as Exhibit 1149-26.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  22  23 (EXHIBIT 1149-26:  Map - Author A. Arrowsmith)  24  25 THE COURT:  The only thing that could relate to — would be  26 close to it is Christina Lake, wouldn't it?  27 A   Yes, my lord, Christina Lake would be in that  28 location.  Whether --  29 THE COURT:  But not that large?  30 A   That's correct, my lord.  And whether even Thomson had  31 represented Christina Lake I'm not sure.  I'd have to  32 look at that rendering of his map.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  34 Q   Then you go on to talk about subsequent Arrowsmith  35 maps in 1832, one brought out by John Arrowsmith?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And Black's explorations of the Finlay-Laird drainage  38 made in 1824 are now apparent?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Then you refer to confusions further south, and then  41 editions being brought out in 1837, 1844 and again in  42 1852?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And you have taken the one dated 1837, have you, for  4 5 your next map, 27?  46 A   Yes.  Yes.  This would be map 27 in the folio of maps.  47 Q   Now, this, as you state, is produced by John 1985?  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Arrowsmith?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Does -- did he still have access, as his uncle did, to  4 records of the Hudson's Bay Company?  5 A   Yes.  The connections there seem to have persisted  6 judging from the kind of information that  7 Arrowsmith -- John Arrowsmith portrays.  The only  8 major source of information -- as far as British  9 Columbia is concerned the only major source of  10 information available to European cartographers would,  11 of course, flow from the Hudson's Bay Company.  And  12 the company records, or at least the records of  13 travels by the fur traders is portrayed in this map.  14 So the only reasonable conclusion I can come to is  15 John Arrowsmith had essentially the same sort of  16 entree to Hudson Bay travel records or exploration  17 records as did his uncle.  18 THE COURT:  Is there a date for this map?  19 A  My lord, 1837, this edition.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  21 Q   When you say "edition" what is the technique that is  22 used by the cartographer in the days of the copper  23 plate to bring out one edition of a previous map?  24 A   Yes.  Copper plates are rather expensive, were rather  25 expensive even in Arrowsmith's time, and it was,  26 comparatively speaking, a simple matter to take an  27 existing plate with the inscription on it and erase  28 the inscription by gentle scraping and then re-rolling  29 the plate, and then inscribing new line work in the  30 place of the engravings or the inscribing that had  31 been done on the plate in the previous instance.  It's  32 anything but simple to those of us who have seen it  33 done by skilled craftsmen, but in comparison to  34 generating a whole new plate it saves time and it  35 saves money.  36 Q   And I take it from that that if the cartographer  37 didn't want to change a piece of information he didn't  38 have to do anything, it just remained where it was?  39 A   That's correct.  40 Q   All right.  Now, in your -- beginning at page 52 and  41 continuing off to page 60 is the section you entitled  42 "Resource Developments and Political Boundaries"?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   You say:  45  46 "In its later stages, the conduct of the  47 overland fur-trade became involved with matters 19859  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 of political sovereignty".  2  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And you discuss the involvement of the Hudson's Bay  5 Company and what is now Washington, Idaho, Oregon and  6 Northern California?  7 A   Right.  8 Q   And I won't go into that.  9 MR. RUSH:  Again, my lord, I voice my objection that this is all  10 beyond the expertise of this witness, and it falls  11 into the catagories that I have mentioned that amounts  12 to argument, and essentially is a history, and this  13 man is a cartographer.  14 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Are you tendering map 27?  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I am, my lord.  Exhibit 1149-27.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  Okay.  17  18 (EXHIBIT 1149-27:  Map - Author J. Arrowsmith)  19  20 MR. GOLDIE:  21 Q   Dr. Farley, after explaining the context of it you  22 come to the conventions which gave rise to the  23 creation of political boundaries?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And at page 56 --  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   -- You state Arrowsmith's British North America, 1837.  28 And that is map 27 on your folio, is it?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q  31 "May be said to represent the best efforts of  32 government and of commercial map makers at the  33 time to portray the Pacific Northwest."  34  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And it represents a synthesis to the decade of the  37 1840's?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And then you make reference to the discovery of gold  40 in the Queen Charlottes in 1850?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And then you touch on the discovery of gold on the  43 mainland of British Columbia, and the resulting --  44 resulting actions by Governor Douglas and the creation  45 of the colony of British Columbia.  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Just turning to Arrowsmith's map 27 there is on what 19860  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 is before the court a heavy line dotted in the north  2 becoming apparently solid as it runs south and then  3 it -- there's an abrupt almost right angle turn west,  4 and then on the map itself there is the word running  5 north and south "Columbia".  Can you tell his lordship  6 what the -- what Columbia refers to, and is it  7 depicted by that heavy line that I have described?  8 A   I wonder for clarification if I have the right line  9 that you're referring to.  Is it this line?  10 Q   Yes, that's the line?  11 A   Yes.  12 THE COURT:  Where does it say Columbia?  13 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it runs north and south, my lord.  The first  14 word -- letter C is -- let me see --  15 THE COURT:  I see Peace River in large print.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  It's to the left of that, about ten o'clock, about  17 an inch and a half.  18 Q   And the C is right above -- right to the left of a  19 river.  And it may be the Turnagain River?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   It begins there.  C-O-L-U-M-B-I-A.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  Yes.  Thank you.  23 A   To answer the question, that area west of the  24 mountains and north of the former Spanish positions,  25 that is north of 42, was considered to be open  26 and -- not considered it was open to the trade of both  27 the United States and the Hudson's Bay Company --  28 United States interests and the Hudson's Bay Company,  29 because this map was prepared before the boundary of  30 1846 which extended the boundary in the mountains --  31 from the Rocky Mountains.  The pre-existing treaty,  32 the Treaty of London, I think 1802 or there about, and  33 in any event, the treaty of 1846 extended the boundary  34 as the 49th parallel out to the coast.  The boundary  35 through the islands, it was a matter that was  36 considered later, but as far as the mainland is  37 concerned the 49th parallel was in 1846 considered to  38 be the boundary.  But when this map was prepared the  39 Columbia country was open to the activities of both  40 country of both interests.  41 MR. RUSH:  Perhaps Dr. Farley could indicate the source of his  42 knowledge of that.  43 A   I think, my lord, if I may say, it's fairly well  44 written, well reported in the available literature.  45 There are many accounts of Angus -- how we and  46 Angus -- there are many accounts of the -- the -- the  47 Columbia country as it existed, and indeed of the fact 19861  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 of this matter of the area between the mountains and  2 the coast and north of, I think I'm correct, 42nd  3 parallel as being open to the activities of both  4 British interests and United States interests.  5 THE COURT:  Take the afternoon adjournment, Mr. Goldie.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  7 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  8 short recess.  9  10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  11  12 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  13 a true and accurate transcript of the  14 proceedings herein to the best of my  15 skill and ability.  16  17  18 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  19 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 19862  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:22)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   My lord, I had gone over to page 57, my lord.  There's  7 a reference in your footnote 35 to Mr. Ireland's work,  8 "The Boundaries of British Columbia", and just so that  9 we have it on the record, would you tell us who W.E.  10 Ireland was?  11 A   Yes.  My lord, Ireland was the provincial archivist --  12 provincial librarian and archivist, distinguished  13 scholar in the field of history.  He's written a  14 number of insightful articles that appeared or were  15 published in B.C. Historical Quarterly, and he  16 published work elsewhere, but particularly I'm  17 familiar with those in the B.C. Historical Quarterly,  18 so I would regard him as a very reputable and  19 insightful scholar.  2 0 Q   And I want to show you a document entitled "The  21 Evolution of the Boundaries of British Columbia".  Is  22 that the reference that you make in your footnote?  23 A   Yes.  That's the article.  24 Q   And on page 2 of that, if you just -- or page 264,  25 just hold that for a moment.  By the way, Professor  26 Ireland is dead; is he not?  27 A   Yes, died some years ago.  28 MR. RUSH:  What page are you referring to?  29 MR. GOLDIE:  30 Q   Page 264.  It's the second page in.  Is this a  31 representation of the zones, if I may put it that way,  32 that Vancouver created and that you referred to in  33 your report?  34 A   Yes.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  My lord, I wish to tender that as an  36 exhibit.  37 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1153, my lord.  38  39 (EXHIBIT 1153 - Document entitled "Evolution of  40 the boundaries of British Columbia")  41  42 MR. GOLDIE:  43 Q   Thank you.  At page 58 -- sorry.  At page 58 you make  44 reference to Arrowsmith's "The provinces of British  45 Columbia", dated 1859?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And the 1862 edition of the same map? 19863  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Is that —  3 A   It does not appear in the appendix of maps.  4 Q   Right.  It's just another series in the editions of  5 Arrowsmith?  6 A   Yes.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  I am going to ask madam registrar, and I apologize  8 for not mentioning this before, if you can get me  9 Exhibit 986 and 986A.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, no, that's not right.  I'm sorry.  It's the map  12 from -- here it is, 968 and 968A, yes.  One is a map  13 marked "Arrowsmith Map Original", and another is the  14 "Extract from Arrowsmith Map".  15 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  17 Q   The -- you give a general description of the  18 subsequent editions of Arrowsmith's maps, and then you  19 say "Following" -- page 58:  20  21 "Following a series of additions and adjustments  22 to its boundaries, notably those concerning  23 "Stikine Territory" and the Peace River country,  24 the mainland colony of British Columbia emerged in  25 1863 in essentially its present form."  26  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And then on page 59 you refer to the Trutch map of  29 1871 entitled "Map of British Columbia to the 56th  30 parallel, north latitude"?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And you characterize this as an outstanding summary of  33 cartographic information about British Columbia at the  34 end of the colonial era?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   That is your map --  37 A   28.  38 Q   28.  And this too is a reduced version of the  39 original, is it not?  40 A   Yes, it is.  41 Q   Would you comment, please, on that map?  42 A   Yes.  I consider it an outstanding summary because it  43 does incorporate especially the work of the Royal  44 engineers in surveying different parts of the colony,  45 but it includes the work of other individuals who had  46 carried out surveys of one kind or another, Walter  47 Moberley is one example.  But for all its quality of 19864  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 what it includes, it does not provide detail for  2 certain areas for which little was known, and I think  3 particularly of the area west of the Nechako River,  4 south and west of the Nechako River.  Indeed if one  5 looks at the map one can see a dotted line suggesting  6 the shore of Francis Lake, or Francois Lake, I think  7 locally pronounced as Francis Lake, and then there is  8 that dotted outline of a lake, at least something I  9 take to be a lake, and it has a label on it -- well,  10 I'm not sure whether it's Taxla or not, T-A-X-L-A,  11 but that may be incorrect.  So I point that out simply  12 to suggest that for all its quality of what it  13 includes, and indeed, most of the southern half of --  14 certainly the southern third of British Columbia is  15 rendered rather well.  That is well in comparison to  16 preceding maps, and certainly for the purposes of the  17 time, wellm -- well enough for administration.  To the  18 north, however, the northern part on the map only  19 extends, as it says, to the 56th parallel.  The  20 northern part has many gaps in it, informational gaps,  21 suggesting that the maker of the map, the  22 draftspeople, did not have as much information as  23 might otherwise been desirable, otherwise they would  24 not have left the blank areas on the map.  25 Q   Can you locate Fort Fraser?  26 A   Yes.  I think I can.  27 Q   At the -- you had Francois Lake.  If you go east along  28 virtually the same parallel.  29 A   Yes, Fort Fraser clearly marked, yes.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  It's between the 125th and the 124th meridians.  31 Does your lordship have that?  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 A   Yes.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  35 Q   Now, going west?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And indeed going south from Fort Fraser, but I direct  38 your attention to going west from Fort Fraser there is  39 a dotted line.  Can you make that out?  40 A   Yes.  Well, that has a name on it not far from Fort  41 Fraser.  Is this the one to which you referred?  42 Q   Well, perhaps if I put before you the reproduction is  43 a little better of the --  44 A   There's Fort Fraser, yes.  45 Q   Have you got Fort Fraser?  And there's a dotted line,  46 and you saw a -- some words there, but the dotted line  47 continues west from there; does it not? 19865  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  THE  COURT  29  A  30  31  32  THE  COURT  33  A  34  MR.  GOLDI  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  Yes, it does.  Is it subsequently identified as --  Yes.  It's shown here as the north of the Nechako --  well, Nechako was shown on the dotted line, but north  of that is another river that I think is  N-E-T-T-A-C-O-H.  I would have to look at the larger  scale.  Right.  I'm afraid my eyes aren't good enough.  I'm now going to direct your attention again back to  Fort Fraser.  Yes.  And yes, that's right, and the -- well, that's Fort  St. James you had in there?  Oh, sorry.  Fort Fraser, yes, here we are.  The dotted line that  follows the sinuosities of something which is later on  marked Bulkley?  Yes.  And I direct your attention to just to the right of  the word "Bulkley", or the word -- or is there two  words there marked "Telegraph line"?  Yes, that's correct.  And that refers to the route of  the Collins Overland Telegraph, and the route that was  followed -- sorry, my lord.  :  Sorry.  I haven't found Bulkley yet.  That's not what it indicates there.  :  Yes.  Where is what you say is the telegraph line?  Well, the dotted line -- let me just look at it again.  Yes.  It says the words "Telegraph line", and there is  a dotted line along there.  :  Yes?  So that would refer again to the --  r:  That's the Collins Overland Telegraph.  Can you follow  that any further, and if so, can you identify any of  the -- any of the names that -- for instance, can you  find Fort Stager by pursuing that line?  Yes.  And that was -- that was on the -- on the  Skeena.  Yes, at the confluence of the Skeena and the  Babine River.  Right.  That was a name given by the builders of the -- yes,  the constructors of the Collins Overland Telegraph  Line, and it was not a fort in a defensive sense, but  rather a post for supplies, for off loading supplies  and these supplies used by the construction crews and 19866  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 running the line of telegraph wire up through the  2 Kispiox country.  Indeed, the line started much  3 farther south and was run in the part of the map to  4 which you refer, run through the Bulkley country, and  5 the name Bulkley arrives from one of the principals  6 with the Overland Telegraph Line.  7 Q   Right.  And you noted in your report at page 59, about  8 ten lines from the bottom, you say:  9  10 "In the north, such notations as "Union Bar" and  11 "Steamer Mumford 1866" on the Skeena River, and  12 "Steamer Union 1865" on the Nass are clear  13 references to activities associated with the  14 Collins Overland Telegraph."  15  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And those are clearly discernible on both the Nass and  18 the Skeena?  19 A   Yes, they are.  And the copy that is contained in the  20 folio of maps, it's a bit hard for me to read, but on  21 the photographic copy they're easier to discern, but I  22 have studied the Trutch map in full scale and in  23 detail, so I can say yes, that's correct.  24 Q   And on this -- on the Trutch map where is the -- where  25 does -- where is the Nass shown as emptying into?  26 A   The Nass River is shown emptying into Observatory  27 Inlet on this -- on this map.  That's correct, it's  28 Observatory Inlet.  29 Q   Although today we know it empties into Portland Canal;  30 is that your evidence?  31 A   That's my understanding.  That's the best to -- to the  32 best of my knowledge, that's indeed where the Nass  33 flows.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, because of the difficulty in discerning  35 some of this, I propose filing the photographic  36 reproduction that was obtained from the archives.  37 THE COURT:  All right.  That will be 1149-28A.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  I'll tender the one that is in the map — in  39 the map folio as Exhibit 1149-28A, and I'll tender the  40 reproduction that contains the certificate of the  41 National Archives as 1149-28B.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 1149-28A - Map - Author Trutch)  44  45 (EXHIBIT 1149-28B - Map - Author Trutch, contains  46 certificate of the National Archives)  47 MR. GOLDIE: 19867  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Now I'm going to show you Exhibit 968, which has been  2 filed in these proceedings and identified as a map of  3 North America drawn by J. Arrowsmith and published  4 1857, ordered by the House of Commons to be printed  5 31st July and 11 August, 1857.  My lord, I will later  6 be tendering the report of the Committee of the House  7 of Commons into the affairs of the Hudson's Bay  8 Company, to which that map and a couple of others are  9 appended, but I'm just drawing the witness' attention  10 to it at the present time as a map drawn by J.  11 Arrowsmith, 1857?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Is that -- do you recognize that as one of the  14 editions of the series that you referred to, or is  15 that a wholly different --  16 A   No.  This is one of the editions of the John -- or of  17 the Arrowsmith series, this one obviously by John  18 Arrowsmith.  Its roots are pretty clear to me.  19 However, I'm not familiar with the coloration on the  20 map.  I honestly cannot remember coloration of this  21 sort on the John Arrowsmith of that year, but it may  22 be.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  24 THE COURT:  This is 859-7?  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   This one, my lord, is Exhibit 968.  And the 968A is an  27 enlargement of that -- an enlargement of the section  28 of part of it?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   That's dated 1857.  Do you know of any better  31 representation of what is now British Columbia at that  32 date -- as of that date?  33 A   I do not.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  Perhaps his lordship might like to see  35 that.  3 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  38 Q   One question before I leave Exhibit 1149-28A or 28B,  39 namely the Trutch map.  So far as you're aware from  40 the -- your researches and what you have undertaken,  41 do you regard this as an accurate depiction of the  42 knowledge that was available at the time?  43 A   There's no question in my mind on that score.  This is  44 the best product of its time.  This is compiled at  45 the -- as the title says, or the box says, "Compiled  46 and drawn at the Lands and Works Office, Victoria B.C.  47 and under the direction of the Honourable J.W. 19868  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  THE  COURT:  26  A  27  28  29  30  ]  31  32  33  34  35  i  36  37  38  i  39  40  i  41  42  THE  COURT:  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  MR.  GOLDIE  45  THE  COURT:  46  47  MR.  GOLDIE  Trutch", et cetera, et cetera, "Chief Commissioner of  Land and Works and Surveyor General".  And --  And he was a civil engineer, I take it?  Yes, he was.  You refer on page 60 to an indication of the state of  geographic information for British Columbia that  existed at the time of its entry into Confederation.  And that, Dr. Farley, is you've depicted the whole of  the province, whereas the Trutch map, as you stated,  went virtually to only the 56th parallel?  56th parallel, that is correct.  And without going into detail, your -- the uncoloured  or unshaded portion is explored and largely mapped by  1813, and as you show there, it is largely on the  coast, although with exceptions referable to the  Fraser River, the overland route from the Fraser down  near Kamloops, that's the Hudson's Bay Brigade trail,  is it?  Yes.  And over to Kamloops and Vernon and south from there,  and that again is the Brigade trail?  Yes, largely -- certainly travelled and largely mapped  by 1813, as I've indicated in the legend or the title  to the summary of 1871.  What's the significance of 1813?  For convenience, my lord, simply to -- well, I suppose  we could say in comparison with similar maps the  information -- or at least similar maps on which I  attempted to portray information as to the state of  mapping of British Columbia what was mapped, what was  thought to exist and what was unexplored, so that was  the reason -- and secondly, in the box following where  I've indicated "Explored and partly mapped, 1831 to  1871", that is an abrasive date.  That includes the  discoveries made in connection with the placer mining  activity in the province and would have included as  well the results of the routes surveyed of the Collins  Overland Telegraph people and so on.  So it was simply  a matter of convenience on my part to choose those  dates.  The 1871 date, if I may just continue on that  point, obviously that's the date of the Trutch map.  Oh, I see.  What was the date of the Union?  1871.  :  July the 20th, 1871.  That's what I thought.  1871 was referred to, but  first the Trutch map was as well.  :  The Trutch map, it was produced before the Union, 19869  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 my lord, and your lordship will see just below the  2 name of the draftsman, Lands and Works Office,  3 Victoria B.C., May 9th, 1870, and then additions to  4 January 1871.  5 THE COURT:  Where do you see that?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  Does your lordship see the 1871 date below Trutch's  7 name?  8 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Four lines.  10 THE COURT:  I see what you mean, yes, additions to January 1871.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  12 Q   Yes.  So at the time of this map, the mainland colony  13 of British Columbia was still in being then?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Now, going back to your map 29, the explored and  16 partly mapped 1813 to '71?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   The placer mining included the Omineca district?  19 A   Yes.  By this time that is -- again referring to the  20 title of the particular map, summary to 1871, by this  21 date placer activity had extended northward and was in  22 the Omineca country into the Cassiar.  23 Q   I realize that it would be very rough indeed, but can  24 you indicate in general terms where the Omineca  25 country would be that you were --  26 A   Yes.  If one looks at the -- at the -- one can locate  27 Prince George and then extend one's eye northward from  28 that and see the label Parsnip River, and then Fort  29 Grahame, the old trading post, the Hudson's Bay post  30 at Fort Grahame, the Omineca country would be from  31 about Takla Lake, roughly speaking, to the northern  32 bend of the Finlay River.  33 Q   Right.  And that includes on the -- on the upper  34 left-hand shoulder Thutade Lake; is that correct?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   So when you say for over half the total provincial  37 area, though, little or nothing was known; what little  38 is known you have graphically depicted on map 29?  39 A   Yes.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  I tender that as Exhibit 1149-29, my  41 lord.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 1149-29 - Map - Author Farley)  44  45 MR. GOLDIE:  46 Q   And then to complete the sequence, you have at map 30  47 the same type of map for up to 1900, and that includes 19870  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  ]  7  8  MR.  GOLDIE  9  10  11  12  MR.  GOLDIE  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  MR.  GOLDIE  23  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT:  28  29  MR.  GOLDIE  30  MR.  RUSH:  31  32  33  THE  COURT:  34  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  37  THE  COURT:  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  ]  40  THE  COURT:  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  43  44  i  45  ]  46  THE  COURT:  47  ]  everything that has gone before; am I right in that?  That is correct.  And you refer to Inspector J.D. Moodie.  Is that the  solid line that begins at Quesnel and goes north?  Yes.  And this was in connection with the placer  mining developments in the Klondike just before the  turn of the century.  :  Mm-hmm.  I tender that as Exhibit 1149-30, my lord.  (EXHIBIT 1149-30 - Map - Author Farley)  Now, I wish to turn to your report and the summary of  your evidence, which is set out in the first six  pages.  Yes.  Now, without going through each of those numbered  paragraphs, does each contain your opinion with  respect to the matters which are set out?  Yes.  Each summarizes the relevant part of my opinion  as I've set it out in appendix A.  :  All right, thank you.  My lord, that, subject to --  subject to any further consideration, I now tender the  report proper as an exhibit, including the summary,  and submit that the limitation for identification  should be removed.  Well, I think I'll reserve on that until after the  cross-examination, Mr. Goldie.  :  Yes, my lord.  My lord, just before this proceeds further, I would  like to see the copy that's been tendered and I would  like to compare it against the one that I have.  Do you want to start your cross-examination, Mr.  Rush?  I was going to propose, my lord, that we start it  tomorrow morning.  Yes.  But if you will, I can make this comparison in the  meantime.  Whatever you wish.  Well, I needn't take up the court's time.  Essentially I want to be sure -- there are one or two  items that led me to think that the copy I had was  different than that that was being tendered.  I can  make the cross-comparison now.  All right.  Adjourn until ten o'clock tomorrow  morning. 19871  A.L. Farley (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order In court.  Court is adjourned until ten  2 o'clock tomorrow.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00)  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings herein transcribed to the  9 best of my skill and ability  10  11  12  13    14 Graham D. Parker  15 Official Reporter  16 United Reporting Service Ltd.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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