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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-07-14] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jul 14, 1989

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 18735  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH  THE COURT  Vancouver, B.C.  July 14, 1989  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia, this 14th day of July, 1989.  In the matter  of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my  lord.  May I remind you you are still under oath.  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  THE REGISTRAR:  And would you state your name for the record,  please?  THE WITNESS:  I'm Barbara Lucille Peden.  THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  THE COURT:  Before you start, Mr. Rush, could I inquire whether  counsel have given any thought to the disposition of  all this paper after next week, when we will be  adjourning until September?  What have counsel done in  other similar situations?  Have you cleaned your own  things out?  Last summer, my lord, we encountered the same  problems.  We took all the exhibits, everything out of  the courtroom.  Well, the reason why I ask now is that there is a  national seminar on computers going to be held in the  great hall in August, and they're planning to use  these three courtrooms for demonstration purposes.  I've been asked if it will be convenient for counsel  to secure their papers somewhere else.  If it is  inconvenient, I would tell them to use some other  room.  It's not inconvenient from my standpoint.  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  As was the case last summer, we can look after  disposition of our papers also, my lord.  THE COURT:  I haven't been asked for the -- you have rooms  outside.  Well, I haven't been asked to make them  available, so you'll have the advantage of that  storage space.  Well, I should ask counsel first, do  you need those rooms?  RUSH:  Yes.  COURT:  You want to put things in there?  RUSH:  Yes.  COURT:  Well, I think that should have priority.  Mr. Rush.  RUSH:  Before we get under way, there's one question of  scheduling for next week that I'd like clarified.  It's the question of the order of the witnesses.  And  there had been some correspondence between my friends  and our side on the issue of the scheduling of Mr.  Shelford's evidence.  Now, I'd like some clarification  MR.  MR.  RUSH:  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR. 18736  Proceedings  1 on whether my understanding is correct, and that is  2 that likely Mr. Tourond will start after Mrs. Peden,  3 and assuming that she completes today, that he will  4 start today and will go till Monday, and following Mr.  5 Tourond then Mr. Shelford will be called, and that Mr.  6 Shelford's evidence will commence after Mr. Tourond.  7 Now, the reason for this -- the need for this  8 clarification is that Mr. Goldie advised Mr. Grant  9 that Mr. Shelford would likely start on Tuesday  10 morning, and if that is the case, we would like to  11 know that whether or not Mr. Tourond finishes early on  12 Monday, or are we to expect that Mr. Shelford will  13 start immediately upon the completion of Mr. Tourond.  14 And I should advise your lordship that there is  15 some discussion about the motions, one of which was  16 directed at the expert opinion reports and their  17 admissibility and objections taken thereto and the  18 question of certain treatises and argument on  19 treatises, and the present thinking on this is that  20 we're trying to come to some mutual agreement about  21 the argument for those in the latter part of next  22 week, if possible, and certainly by the end of Monday  23 have completed hopefully at least one of those motions  24 by the end of Monday.  I think we'll be in a better  25 position to know that this coming Monday.  But for the  26 purposes of the scheduling of the evidence at least  27 we'd like to know when Mr. Shelford is going to start.  28 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie, can you assist?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, it's anticipated and expected that Mr.  30 Shelford will commence his evidence on Tuesday  31 morning.  That's our plan.  32 THE COURT:  Whether Mr. Tourond is finished or not?  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, no, my lord.  He will follow Mr. Tourond,  34 but we expect that it would be Tuesday morning.  35 THE COURT:  All right.  Will Mr. Shelford be a long witness?  36 Will we finish him next week?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, we anticipate finishing him in two days, my  38 lord.  39 THE COURT:  In two days.  All right.  And then if that's so,  40 then there would be time for another witness or for  41 the argument on Thursday and Friday?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  We have no further lay witnesses scheduled for  43 next week, my lord, but arguments can be scheduled for  44 next week, and Mr. Willms is looking after dealing  45 with the scheduling of those arguments next week.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Mr. Goldie threatened me with an  47 argument on treatises when we had the argument before. 18737  Proceedings  1 I'm close to publishing my reasons on the experts'  2 opinions and the matters that Mr. Adams and Ms.  3 Mandell argued last week I suppose it was.  Is that a  4 matter that I should hold up until I've heard these  5 further submissions?  6 MR. WILLMS:  I can advise your lordship that I will be arguing  7 the submission in respect of treatises, and the  8 treatise submission that will be made will be roughly  9 parallel to the document submission because, as your  10 lordship will appreciate, many of the plaintiffs'  11 witnesses rely on the treatises for the facts that are  12 contained in the treatises so that they don't merely  13 say that I've read this opinion and this opinion  14 supports my opinion or I adopt this opinion, which is  15 the normal -- what you might say is the normal method  16 of using a treatise.  17 THE COURT:  Well, you both put treatises to witnesses.  18 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, we've both put treatises to witnesses, and in  19 those treatises that have been put to witnesses the  20 treatises contain both facts and also opinions in the  21 treatises based on the facts, and so the submission  22 that will be made in respect of the facts is going to  23 parallel the submission that is made on the historical  24 documents.  And if your lordship will recall, what I  25 submitted was that if they don't go in for the  26 truth -- as prima facie proof of the truth of the  27 contents, if that's not why they're going in, then the  2 8 opinions have no weight.  And I'm going to make the  29 same submission with respect to the treatises, that if  30 the treatises aren't going in, for example, as prima  31 facie proof of the truth of the facts stated in the  32 treatises, then insofar as opinions are based on those  33 facts, they're entitled to no weight at all or they're  34 inadmissible, and I have an alternate submission in  35 respect of that similar to the submission that I made  36 in respect of historical documents.  So the  37 submissions are parallel.  There are some additional  38 submissions that are peculiar to treatises.  I don't  39 know if that helps your lordship, but that's --  40 MR. RUSH:  My answer will be somewhat shorter, my lord.  I think  41 your judgment on the outstanding argument would be of  42 assistance.  43 THE COURT:  I'm not sure about that.  It may be of assistance to  44 someone or to both or it may be a tie ball game.  I'm  45 inclined to think that I should publish my reasons but  46 to say now that I'm going to do so subject to  47 reconsideration because it may be that I will be 1873?  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 enlightened in such a way that I will want to withdraw  2 what I think I'm going to say -- what I know I'm going  3 to say because it's in the process of being prepared  4 for delivery today.  And I think I'll let it go so  5 that counsel could have the benefit of or the  6 disadvantage of what's there.  It may be that after  7 I've heard more submissions I'll change my mind, and  8 I'm going to reserve that privilege, and counsel can  9 be advised accordingly.  All right.  I guess I should  10 say that what counsel just said now seems to me to add  11 still another dimension to an already multi-  12 dimensional problem, and it may be that what they're  13 going to say will impact very substantially on what  14 I've said.  If that's so, I don't think I want to be  15 committed to what I've said in these reasons when I'm  16 told that I'm about to have some more instruction on  17 the matter.  All right.  Thank you.  18  19 CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. RUSH:  20 Q   Mrs. Peden, I think you told us about a trapline which  21 your brother, Barry Grainger, had around the ranch,  22 the family ranch?  23 A   That's right.  24 Q   And do you know when he applied for that, thereabouts?  25 A   I would say in the '50s.  I'm not too sure of the  26 exact year.  27 Q   I have an application for a trapline licence, which  28 shows that your brother made an application for a  29 trapline in May of 1947.  Does that sound about right  30 to you?  31 A   I guess so.  I'm not too sure because I'm not really  32 sure when he made his application or not, but I know  33 he did make one, and I know he had a trapline.  34 Q   All right.  Just let me show you this poor photocopy  35 of an Application for Registration of a Trap-line, and  36 I would ask you if you've ever seen this application  37 before?  38 A   I've never seen his application, but that's his name,  39 and it's correctly spelt, and that's where -- the  40 address and everything is right.  41 Q   Is that his signature?  42 A  And that is his signature.  43 Q   And do you see that the address is given as Noralee,  44 B.C.?  45 A   That's right.  46 Q   And it shows the length of residence in B.C. as 11  47 years? 18739  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   That's right, isn't it?  Well, if this is '47 —  3 A   Yeah, I guess.  4 Q   '36 would be —  5 A  And '36.  Right.  6 Q   And it shows the length of the trapline is 35 miles?  7 A   That's approximate, yes, I would guess.  8 Q   And that there are old established lines and cabins?  9 A   Right.  10 Q   And that this is made on May the 3rd, '47?  11 A   I see that's what it says.  12 Q   All right.  Did you trap on that trapline with him?  13 A   Not myself.  I didn't trap.  I went with him on his  14 trapline from time to time, but I did not trap with  15 him on his trapline with him.  16 Q   And do you know who had the trapline before your  17 brother?  18 A   No, I do not.  19 Q   So the -- you yourself have never actually gone  20 trapping on this line?  21 A   No.  22 Q   All right.  May that be an exhibit, my lord?  I only  23 have one copy of that.  It's the back and the front of  24 a -- photocopy of an Application for Registration of a  25 Trap-line, May the 3rd, 1947, of a Mr. B Grainger.  26 That's Barry Grainger?  27 A   That's right.  28 Q   Your brother that has passed on?  29 A   That's right.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  31 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1093.  32  33 (EXHIBIT 1093 - APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION OF A  34 TRAP-LINE DATED MAY 3, 1947 - B. GRAINGER)  35  3 6    MR. RUSH:  37 Q   Now, I want to show you, Mrs. Peden, a photocopy of  38 what appears to be a mapped area of the trapline that  39 I've just directed your attention to, and I want to  40 ask you if you can identify the map or the area?  41 A   Yeah, that's approximately -- I'd say that was the way  42 it was shaped.  43 Q   Okay.  You're looking at the shape.  Perhaps so we can  44 get it straight, have you seen this map before?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   You have.  And do you -- you can recognize what the  47 photocopy of the geographic area represents?  You see 18740  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Francois Lake there and Noralee?  2 A   That's right.  3 Q   And the Nadina River?  4 A   That's right.  5 Q   And you see up at the top the Poplar River, do you?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And you recognize the general shape?  8 A   That's right.  9 Q   But I take it that you couldn't say with any  10 exactitude if that's the exact boundary line, or can  11 you?  12 A  Well, it's similar to the other maps I've seen of the  13 trapline, and it looks like the same -- right shape.  14 Q   And that's where your brother --  15 A  And I know that's the areas he trapped in.  16 Q   All right.  And when you went out with your brother  17 more importantly, when you accompanied him, this is  18 the area you were in?  19 A   Right.  20 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  May that be the next exhibit, please?  21 THE REGISTRAR:  1094, my lord.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23  24 (EXHIBIT 1094 - MAPPED AREA OF TRAPLINE)  25  2 6    MR. RUSH:  27 Q   And you have another brother, Martin, do you?  2 8 A   I do.  29 Q   And Martin Grainger is still living?  30 A   That's right.  31 Q   Did Martin Grainger trap in this area as well, to your  32 knowledge?  33 A  When we was kids, I guess, on the ranch he did with my  34 dad, but other than that, no.  35 Q   I wonder if he did any trapping there after your  36 brother Barry passed on in 1984?  37 A   He trapped on -- as to do with the estate.  He was  38 like my -- Martin Grainger and myself were executors  39 of the will, of the estate, and he trapped that  40 first -- that winter, which was --  41 Q   The winter of '84?  42 A   '83-'84.  43 Q   All right.  I want to show you -- I'm going to show  44 the witness two letters.  I want to show you a letter,  45 Mrs. Grainger, that is dated December the 10th, 1984.  46 It's addressed to a Mr. Thatcher at Burns Lake, and it  47 appears to be from an M. Grainger of Box, 3 Leo Creek. 18741  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Is Leo Creek where Martin lives?  2 A   Yes, it is, or that was his post office there.  It's  3 actually -- Middle River is his -- where he lives.  4 Q   All right.  I just want to show you this letter and  5 ask you if you can identify the signature of your  6 brother, Martin Grainger?  7 A   Yes, that's his signature.  8 Q   All right.  And this letter says that he -- and I'm  9 reading.  10  11 "I caught 5 beaver and I still have them.  The  12 line had been trapped out before I got there by  13 poachers.  I caught one Indian with a beaver,  14 chewed him out (and) can't remember his name  15 now."  16  17 Now, the area that -- does the date of December the  18 10th, 1984, assist you with the time at which Mr.  19 Martin Grainger was trapping on the trapline area  20 formerly owned by your brother Barry?  21 A   Yes, it does, because after I had mentioned that, I  22 realized he only trapped in the spring.  23 Q   Okay.  And do you -- I take it that shortly after  24 December 10th of 1984 this trapline was assigned or  25 transferred to Mr. Lloyd?  26 A   That's right.  27 Q   All right.  And do you have any knowledge of -- any  28 personal knowledge of anyone else being in this  29 trapline area that you've described as being on the  30 map that you have identified in 1984?  31 A  Anyone else?  32 Q   Other than Martin.  33 A   No.  34 Q   Okay.  Now, if you'll just look at the next letter  35 there.  36 A   Can I pick it up and look at this?  37 Q   Yes, please do.  It's dated December 27th, 1984, again  38 addressed to Mr. Thatcher.  39 A   That's right.  40 Q   It looks like it's a follow-up letter, and he also  41 there -- and I quote:  42  43 "Will write Mr. Willet concerning the trap line.  44 Would like more time for the trapline."  45  46 Seems to be something,  47 18742  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  "...there isn't too much poaching going on on  the trapline."  Do you see that?  It's in the last paragraph there.  A   That seems to how he's put there in writing.  Q   And you can identify your brother's signature?  A   That is his signature.  Q   Yes.  And do you have any knowledge yourself, Mrs.  Peden, of what is referred to as poaching on that  trapline, any personal knowledge?  A   I never saw anyone poaching on the trapline.  MR. RUSH:  All right.  May the letter —  THE COURT:  Do I understand that sound to mean that we're  supposed to now depart?  MR. RUSH:  My lord, the practice in the past is for a very deep  sounding voice to announce itself to tell us whether  we should stay in the room or get out, but perhaps  caution is the --  THE COURT:  There are times when we have to yield to social  organization.  I'm not sure.  This may not be one of  them.  Well, I think we're safe.  People are coming in  rather than going out.  REGISTRAR:  He's going to call me right back.  COURT:  All right.  Let's carry on until we have further  word.  RUSH:  There's another gentleman here.  COURT:  Hello.  Come in.  We seem to be all right now.  Let's carry on, Mr. Rush.  RUSH:  I'm not sure what your exhibit number is on --  REGISTRAR:  Are these to go in as one?  RUSH:  No, I'd like them to go in separately, please.  The  one dated December the 10th, 1984, can be the next  exhibit, and the one following that, December 27, the  letter from Grainger to Thatcher.  REGISTRAR:  December 10th will be 1095.  December 27th —  (EXHIBIT 1095 - LETTER DATED DECEMBER 10, 1984, TO  THATCHER FROM GRAINGER RE TRAPLINE)  (EXHIBIT 1096 - LETTER DATED DECEMBER 27, 1984, TO  THATCHER FROM GRAINGER RE TRAPLINE)  MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I think my friend has advised me that  these documents were drawn, I take it, from the  trapline files that we have disclosed to him.  I  understand they're included in the 20 volumes of  trapline files which were marked as an exhibit for  identification, Exhibit 995-41A.  And so as I  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE 18743  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 understand, my friend is now proving the documents in  2 those files, for which we've sent a notice to admit to  3 which my friend has not responded with an admission.  4 MR. RUSH:  5 Q   I'm glad you add with an admission because we have  6 responded.  Given the fact that the notice to admit  7 only contained I think it was something in the order  8 of 20 volumes of documents containing upwards of a  9 hundred pages per volume lining the whole side of one  10 of those desks, I think we would be allowed somewhat  11 longer than 14 days to respond, and we've indicated  12 that we need a bit more time, and for these four  13 documents, yes, we're happy to prove them through Mrs.  14 Peden.  15 Now, Mrs. Peden, my question to you is the  16 trapping season, as you understand it, is in the late  17 fall and in the early part of the winter; is that  18 right?  19 A   Late fall, early part of the winter, and spring.  20 Q   And the spring?  21 A   That's right.  22 Q   And it's basically the spring season from April --  23 March to April?  24 A   That's right.  25 Q   And my understanding is that in the fall and in the  26 winter marten, weasel, lynx, fisher, etcetera, are  27 trapped?  2 8 A   Yeah.  29 Q   And in the spring, in March and April, that's beaver  3 0 time?  31 A   That's right.  32 Q   And it's also my understanding that in terms of  33 hunting that there is a spring hunting season, and  34 that spring hunting season is -- runs from  35 approximately the 1st of May to the 1st of June, in  36 that period.  I'm not saying -- it might be mid May to  37 mid June, but it's basically a month in that period,  38 and that's for moose and bear; is that right?  39 A   No, it isn't.  40 Q   What is the —  41 A   You don't hunt moose in that time of the year.  You  42 hunt bear, but you do not hunt moose.  43 Q   All right.  44 A   It's illegal to hunt moose in that time of year.  45 Q   Okay.  Well, thank you for that.  46 A   Okay.  47 Q   But in terms of the time frame, am I right that that's 18744  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 a bear hunting period?  2 A That's right.  3 Q And then in the fall season, there is a season for  4 moose hunting in the fall in your area; is that right?  5 A That's right.  6 Q And there is a season for the hunting of bear?  7 A That's right.  8 Q And I think for goat as well, is there not?  9 A Yes.  10 Q Yes.  And that season runs, for the most part, from  11 mid September to mid October?  12 A To mid November.  13 Q To mid November.  14 A Especially for the moose, yes.  15 Q Right.  But for the most part, when you were out  16 hunting those species, you were out there from mid  17 September to mid October?  18 A That's right.  19 Q And there is virtually no hunting or trapping in the  20 months of June, July, August, and the early part of  21 September?  22 A That's right.  23 Q Now, did you ever accompany your brother and Mathew  24 Sam trapping?  25 A My brother Barry, I'd go with him, but I didn't trap  26 with him.  I just went with him along for the ride.  27 Q I'm sorry, I should have restated the question.  I  28 intended to say did you accompany your brother with  2 9 Mathew Sam?  30 A No.  31 Q Did you ever hunt or trap in the company of Mathew  32 Sam?  33 A No.  34 Q Do you have any knowledge of whether your brother  35 Barry hunted or trapped with Mathew Sam?  36 A I have no knowledge of that.  37 Q Now, you've talked about Poplar Lake several times in  38 the course of your evidence?  39 A Yes.  40 Q Poplar Lake has another name?  41 A Yes.  42 Q What is that?  43 A Tagetochlain.  44 Q Tagetochlain?  45 A Yes.  46 Q Did you understand that to be an Indian name?  47 A Yes, I did. 18745  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8   :  MR. RUSH  9  10  11  MR. mack:  12  13  14  15  MR. RUSH  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  And did you understand what Indian group it was that  gave the name to that lake?  No.  Do you know what kind of Indian name it is, whether  it's a Carrier name or a Gitksan or some other type of  name?  No, I don't.  Do you know of any other Carrier or Wet'suwet'en  names for lakes or mountains in the guide outfitting  area that you know?  \FZIE:  Excuse me, my lord.  Yes.  I would ask my friend  to rephrase that question as Indian names.  Mrs. Peden  has said she didn't know the Carrier or Gitksan --  whether this Lake Tagetochlain was Carrier or Gitksan.  Well, I think she can answer the question I posed to  her, and if it is necessary, my lord, I can put  another question to her.  Do you know any of the mountains, lakes, rivers in  your guide outfitting area that have Gitksan or  Wet'suwet'en names apart from the one that you've just  mentioned as an Indian name?  Well, Tsichgass is not in my guiding area, but that  was -- supposedly is an Indian name or native name,  but I don't know what tribe it's from.  Do you know any other Indian names besides Tsichgass  and Tagetochlain?  No.  Did you know that Morice Lake goes by the name of  Wedzen Kwe?  No.  And do you know that -- do you know if Nanika is an  Indian name or not?  I don't know.  You know Nanika?  Yes.  And do you have any knowledge about where the name  Nanika comes from?  No, I don't.  You told us your brother Barry started his big game  guiding operation in the late '50s or early '60s?  Yes.  And you said in the later years you assisted him?  Yes, I did.  And can you tell me, when you said later years, what  did you mean? Your brother passed on in 1983. When  did you assist him? 18746  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A I would say the -- well, like mid to late '60s.  2 Q Mid to late '60s.  And was that in '63 to '65?  3 A It could have been.  I'm not too sure of all the  4 dates.  5 Q But I take it that after the mid to late '60s you  6 didn't assist him any more?  7 A That's right.  8 Q And really it wasn't again until 1984, when the guide  9 outfitter's certificate was passed to you, that you  10 began to work again as a guide?  11 A That's right.  12 Q And when you assisted him, where did you assist him?  13 A Meaning area or --  14 Q Yes.  15 A On his guide area.  16 Q Was that around Nadina River?  17 A Part of it.  18 Q And was that in the moose and black bear season in the  19 fall?  2 0 A Yes, it was.  21 Q And you -- at that time, Mrs. Peden, you didn't do any  22 guiding yourself?  I take it that your brother Barry  23 did the guiding, did he?  24 A That's right.  I was his assistant guide.  25 Q Okay.  And how many trips did you go out on?  26 A Heavens, I don't know.  It depends on how many hunters  2 7 we had.  2 8 Q And I think you told us that you went with your  29 brother to Morice Lake by boat?  30 A I didn't go to Morice Lake by boat with my brother.  31 Q Okay.  So you told us that he had himself gone into  32 Morice Lake by boat and by pack train?  33 A That's right.  34 Q But in whatever means he went, you didn't go in either  35 way?  36 A Not that way.  I went by car or truck, pick-up.  37 Q You weren't with him at the time that he went in by  38 pack train?  39 A No.  40 Q But you have knowledge that he did do that, and by  41 pack train you mean a horse train; is that right?  42 A That's right.  43 Q Now, you said you saw native people trapping at Poplar  44 Lake?  45 A That's right.  46 Q And I think you said that was in the late '70s?  47 A Something like that. 18747  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  MR. RUSH:  26  27  MR. RUSH:  28  THE COURT  29  MR. RUSH:  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  Was it in the '80s too?  It could have been the early, early '80s, yes.  And do you know who was trapping there?  It was a man and his wife, but I didn't know their  names.  Would you show the witness, please, Exhibit 218, madam  registrar, which is in this red volume.  Thank you.  I'm showing you a photograph, which is marked Exhibit  218, Mrs. Peden.  Do you recognize the man or the  woman in the photograph?  They look like the couple, but I'm not absolutely  positive because every time you see them they look  different.  I see.  These could be the people that were trapping  at Poplar Lake?  They could be, yes.  And you'll identify those pelts for me, will you, as  beaver, or do you know?  Those aren't beaver.  They aren't?  They don't look like it.  I don't know.  From what I  can see here they don't look like beaver.  I don't  even know what they are, actually.  I can't see them  good enough to identify them.  I see.  Do you know --  (ANNOUNCEMENT OVER PA SYSTEM RE FIRE ALARM)  I feel very much more secure now, my lord.  :  We'll all sleep better tonight.  Yes.  Do you know the man in the photograph to be  Sylvester Williams?  I wouldn't know because I didn't know their names.  All right.  My lord, a reference for this photograph  is volume 55 at page 3321.  Now, you said you saw a cabin at Poplar Lake?  That's right.  And you said that the cabin had burned down?  That's right.  I'd like you, if you will, please, to turn to Exhibit  221, and this is a photograph of a cabin, and I wonder  if you can -- and it says at the bottom of the  photograph May 1980, and I wonder if you can identify  that cabin as the cabin that you saw?  It is the cabin that I saw, and it's on Poplar Lake or  was on Poplar Lake, Tagetochlain.  And it appears to be the -- does it appear to your eye  that -- that's Poplar Lake in the background, is it? 18748  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A Definitely.  2 Q Yes.  And do you recognize the people in the  3 photograph?  4 A Yeah, those are the two I saw trapping there.  5 Q Okay.  And you said, I think, that that cabin burned  6 down about three years ago?  7 A Yes.  8 Q And do you know the circumstances of the cabin burning  9 down?  10 A Yes, it was an arson type of a deal.  We had someone  11 going around setting fires, and they was one of the  12 cabins that got burnt down at that time.  13 Q That's what you heard, was it?  14 A We know it.  15 Q You know it?  16 A Yes.  17 Q How do you know that?  18 A Through the forest service.  19 Q Through the forest service?  2 0 A Right.  21 Q The forest service told you it was an arson?  22 A Yes.  23 Q I see.  Does your son know more about that?  24 A Yes, he does.  25 Q My lord, the reference there is volume 55, page 3336.  26 You told us that you also saw some trapping at  27 Owen Lake?  28 A That's right.  29 Q On how many occasions did you see that trapping?  30 A I couldn't go definite by numbers.  I'd just have to  31 say several times.  32 Q Did you know any of the trappers?  33 A No, I didn't.  34 Q Do you know Leonard George or Andy George?  35 A No.  36 Q Do you know Joe Joseph or Alfred Joseph?  37 A No.  38 Q Do you have any knowledge at all as to who has the  39 registered trapline at Owen Lake?  40 A No, I don't.  41 Q What you do know though is that trappers move around a  42 lot, don't they?  43 A That's right.  44 Q From place to place and from year to year?  45 A They do.  They're not supposed to.  They're supposed  46 to stay on their own traplines.  47 Q Now, you told us, Mrs. Peden, that except for the 18749  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  trapping at Poplar Lake and Owen Lake that you saw no  other trappers west of Francois Lake?  A   That's right.  MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, that's misstating the evidence, my  lord.  I think Mrs. Peden said no native trappers.  MR.  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Well, I didn't take it to -- see that distinction, but  that's fine.  We can deal with that.  And Pack Lake,  that's number 7 on this map, is it, Mrs. Peden?  I guess that's the number.  I don't know.  I'd have to  go look at the map.  Yes, that's Park Lake, close to  Park Lake.  Okay.  And that's about how far from where you live?  About ten miles.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MACKENZIE:  My friend means at the present time,  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  Well, she can take any time she likes,  Well —  my  I take it.  lord.  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  How far, Mrs. Peden?  Roughly ten miles.  Thank you.  And I take it that your statement about  not seeing any Indian trappers west of Francois Lake  applies to the 1980s?  It's just about  Not really  road.  Well, I -- were you up  Yes.  '84, '85?  Yes.  Okay,  in the  any time I was up the  there in the 1980s?  I'd just like to show you Exhibit 215.  same book.  It's  Sorry, 215 or 18?  A  Q  A  Yes, my lord, Exhibit 215.  Now, if you'll just look at that photograph,  please.  Exhibit 215 is a photo.  Do you recognize  that photograph?  No, I don't.  Do you recognize the scene depicted in the photograph?  No, it's just a poplar opening as far as I can see. I  don't even know where it is.  No.  Do you recognize the individual in the  photograph?  No, I don't.  Okay.  There are two people in the photograph.  Do you  recognize either of those?  No, I don't. 18750  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Okay.  If I told you that the man that is stretching  2 the pelt is Sylvester Williams and the other man  3 standing behind is Dan Michell, does that assist you?  4 A   Not really because he doesn't look the same when he's  5 the side view like that as he is face on.  6 Q   I see.  And if I told you that that photo was taken in  7 1984, 1985 at Park Lake, does that assist you?  8 A   No, it doesn't.  9 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, it's Pack Lake in the transcript when it  10 was marked, not Park.  11 MR. RUSH:  Well, the witness referred to it as Park Lake as  12 well, thank you.  And I think we should know who's  13 making the objections here.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, the objection is that my friend keeps  15 saying Pack Lake, and Mrs. Peden has not agreed with  16 him that that has anything to do with Park Lake.  My  17 friend keeps trying to get her to say that that's the  18 same thing, but we don't have that agreement yet, and  19 the transcript clearly does say Pack Lake.  2 0 THE COURT:  Well, what do you know it as, Mrs. Peden?  21 THE WITNESS:  I've always understood it as Park Lake, and it's  22 on the maps as Park Lake, not Pack Lake.  23 THE COURT:  Have you heard it described locally sometimes as  24 Pack Lake?  25 THE WITNESS:  No, I never have.  2 6 THE COURT:  All right.  2 7 MR. RUSH:  28 Q   Mrs. Peden, if I told you that sometimes some people  29 refer to Park Lake as Pack Lake and that sometimes  30 some people think of these lakes as the same, does it  31 assist your memory if I tell you that that photograph  32 was taken in 1984, 1985 at Pack Lake or Park Lake?  33 A  Wouldn't assist me in any way because I never saw  34 anybody like in this photograph at Park Lake.  35 Q   The reference, my lord, is volume 55, page 3316.  36 Now, if you'll please, Mrs. Peden, turn to Exhibit  37 214.  I'm showing you Exhibit 214, which is a  38 photograph of what appears to be a campsite.  Do you  39 recognize the scene that's depicted there?  40 A   Recognize it in what way?  41 Q   Well, in any way.  Do you recognize the trees?  Do you  42 recognize the area?  43 A   I don't recognize the area.  Sure, the trees are  44 poplar trees, and it looks like a campsite.  It's a  45 tent camp.  It has some stretched animals of some kind  46 and —  47 Q   Do you recognize the environment as the kind that you 18751  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 might see around Pack Lake or Park Lake, if that's  2 what it's called?  3 A   It's a possibility, but I never saw one there.  4 Q   Do you know these people that are there, Doris  5 Michell?  6 A   No, I don't.  7 Q   Or Helen Mitchell or Ken Mitchell?  8 A   No, I don't.  I don't know any of them.  9 Q   Did you ever see a campsite like that?  10 A   Not there.  11 Q   If I told you that the photo was taken in 1985, Mrs.  12 Peden, at Sylvester Williams' main campsite on Park  13 Lake or Pack Lake, does that help your memory at all?  14 A   No, it doesn't.  15 Q   That area is in your guiding area though, isn't it?  16 A   Yes, it is.  17 Q   You've been out to Morice River on the Morice River  18 Road?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And would you have been out there in the early '80s?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   In 1980 perhaps?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And there's a road that goes along Morice River to  25 Morice Lake?  26 A   That's right.  27 Q   And are you familiar with the confluence of Gosnell  28 Creek and Morice River?  29 A   Yes, I know approximately where it is.  30 Q   Okay.  And do you -- in that period back in 1980 did  31 you see any native trappers stretching beaver pelts or  32 other pelts along the road, marten?  33 A   No.  34 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Is Exhibit 183 in this as well?  35 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, tab 19.  3 6    MR. RUSH:  37 Q   Thank you.  I just want to direct your attention,  38 please, to Exhibit 183, to a photograph showing two  39 men in the photograph and with the date May 1980 below  40 it.  Do you recognize the scene that's shown in that  41 photograph?  42 A   No, I don't.  That could be anywhere.  43 Q   Do you recognize it as perhaps being along the Morice  44 River Road?  45 A   No, I can't.  I can't definite -- it could be -- as I  46 say, it could be anywhere.  47 Q   Do you recognize the people in the photograph, Roger 18752  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Mitchell or Ken Mitchell?  2 A   No, I don't.  3 Q   Okay.  If I told you that photograph was taken in May  4 of 1980 on the Morice River Road, would that help you  5 at all?  6 A   No, it wouldn't.  7 Q   The reference, my lord, is volume 52, page 3184.  8 And that area is in your guiding area, is it?  9 Not -- you haven't been able to identify it there, but  10 Morice River Road is in your guiding area?  11 A   Part of it.  12 Q   The westerly part?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Close to Gosnell Creek?  15 A   Close to the end of Morice Lake.  16 Q   By the end you mean the east end?  17 A   Right.  18 Q   And you have been out to the east end of Morice Lake  19 since taking over your brother's guiding area?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And on the south side of the Morice River about three  22 miles east of Gosnell Creek do you know if  23 approximately that location there are trapping cabins?  24 A   No, I don't.  25 Q   But the location as I have described it to you is in  26 your guiding area, isn't it?  27 A  My guiding area does not have anything to do with the  28 Morice River.  It only touches the end of Morice Lake.  29 Q   All right.  But in order to get there you have to --  30 A   You have to be on the road.  31 Q   Right.  32 A   Right.  33 MR. RUSH:  I'd like to direct the witness's attention now to  34 Exhibit 213.  35 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 12.  3 6    MR. RUSH:  37 Q   Thank you.  And I want to show you a photograph of two  38 cabins at Exhibit 213.  I would ask you if you  39 recognize the cabins that are depicted in that  40 photograph?  41 A   No, I don't.  42 Q   And if I tell you that that cabin, the one on the left  43 side, has been standing for many years and was  44 standing in 1987, does that help to jog your memory at  45 all?  46 A   No, it doesn't.  47 Q   And if I tell you that the cabin on the right, what 18753  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  MR. RUSH:  45  46  THE COURT  47  MR. RUSH:  appears to be the newer of the two, was built in 1987,  does that help to jog your memory?  No.  And did you ever see any native trapping or any native  trappers in the area about three miles downstream on  the Morice River from the confluence with Gosnell  Creek?  No.  And do you know Warner Williams?  No, I do not.  My lord, the reference is volume 55, page 3311.  Now, Mrs. Peden, do you know Newcombe Lake?  Yes.  Have you ever been there?  Yes.  When were you there, in the last three years?  No.  When were you there?  Oh, it would be -- let me see.  Mid '50s.  Was that --  Late '50s.  Sorry.  Mid '50s to late '50s.  Were you there on more than one occasion?  No, I was only there once.  What time of the year was that?  It was in the summertime.  That's all I can remember.  Okay.  And you went in by foot, did you?  Yes, boat and foot.  We went partway by boat and took  a trail and walked in.  Okay.  I want to ask you, Mrs. Peden, if you know the  person who is in Exhibit 312.  And I am producing a  photograph which is marked as Exhibit 312 and ask you  if you can recognize the woman that's standing beside  the sugar?  No, I can't.  Did you know a Sarah Holland?  No.  You don't know that to be one of the Hollands that  lived close by to where you'd lived as a young person?  No, I don't.  Did you know a Sarah Seymour?  No, I don't.  My lord, the reference for that photograph, Exhibit  312, is volume 65, page 4013.  :  Thank you. 18754  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Now, I want to ask you, Mrs. Peden, about your own  2 guiding activity when you took over the guiding  3 certificate from your late brother, and I understand  4 that you began doing some guiding yourself in 1984,  5 and you were out guiding in the period from September  6 the 24th to October the 27th of that year; is that  7 right?  8 A   It doesn't sound right.  It should have been sooner  9 than that.  It depends on when the hunters come in,  10 but I have no -- I can't remember the dates, but I'm  11 sure it should have been early than September and --  12 the 24th of September.  13 Q   Would it have been -- how much earlier would it have  14 been, Mrs. Peden?  15 A  At least a week earlier.  16 Q   So maybe the 15th, would it?  17 A  More like it, yes.  18 Q   All right.  So if I have it, in 1984, accepting what  19 you say, that it was as early as September the 15th --  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   -- does it sound about right that you were out from  22 September the 15th to October the 24th?  23 A   That sounds more like it.  24 Q   I'm sorry, I should have said October the 27th --  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   -- 1984.  Does that sound about right?  27 A   It sounds about right.  28 Q   Okay.  And my instructions are that you personally  29 guided from September the 24th to September the 29th.  30 Does that sound about right?  31 A   Could you repeat that, please?  32 Q   September the 24th to September the 29th.  33 A   There's something wrong about that.  It doesn't sound  34 right.  You said personally guided in those --  35 Q   Yes.  Well —  36 A   — from the 24th to the 29th?  37 Q   Yes.  Well, isn't the fact of the matter, Mrs. Peden,  38 that in 1984 you took some hunters out and guided  39 some, and your son, Mr. Tourond, took other hunters  4 0 out and guided them?  41 A   Right.  42 Q   And the rule is that you can only guide two hunters  43 per one guide, isn't it?  44 A   That's right.  45 Q   Now, as I understand it, you were out guiding one or  46 two hunters, and your son was guiding another one or  47 two hunters? 18755  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And you wouldn't be at the same place at the same  3 time, would you?  4 A   Not most of the time, no.  5 Q   All right.  And my understanding is that in the  6 periods that -- in that period, from September the  7 15th to October the 27th, that you yourself were  8 personally guiding from September the 24th to the 29th  9 of 1984.  Does that sound right to you?  There are  10 some other dates, Mrs. Peden, that I'm going to put to  11 you.  12 A   I suppose that's right.  I -- right now I couldn't  13 prove one way or the other.  I'd have to look at my  14 records.  15 Q   Okay.  And you were -- does it sound right to you that  16 from October the 15th through to the 20th and then to  17 the 27th that you were personally guiding?  18 A   Yes, that sounds close.  19 Q   Okay.  Now, keeping your mind fixed on 1984, do you  20 recall if the area that you were guiding in was in the  21 Nadina River around Poplar Lake?  22 A  We might have made a trip or two up there.  I can't  23 recall.  As I said, unless I have my records, I  24 couldn't say one way or the other.  25 Q   You can't remember where you were at that particular  26 time; is that it?  27 A   Not right at the moment, no.  I don't have all my  28 facts in front of me.  29 Q   Okay.  30 A   I'd have to go back in my books and look at them.  31 Q   Now, does it sound right to you, Mrs. Peden, that in  32 1985 your guide hunting season was from September the  33 2nd to October the 7th?  34 A   That sounds like it.  I think goat season opened on  35 the 1st of September, so I would say yes.  36 Q   And does it sound right to you that in that year you  37 were at Atna Lake and Morice Lake and Kidprice Lake,  38 among others?  39 A  We were in some of those areas, yes.  40 Q   All right.  Those areas are all, relatively speaking,  41 close to one another, aren't they?  42 A   Yes, relatively, yes.  43 Q   Isn't the idea that in a hunting guiding season you  44 tend to go out -- you choose particular areas you go  45 to and you concentrate in that general area?  46 A   For maybe one hunt, yes.  4 7 Q   And then — 18756  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A  Maybe two hunts.  It depends on our clientele and what  2 they're wanting.  3 Q   Where is Hay Lake?  4 A   Hay Lake is just a name that was given to a meadow  5 lake that's along a logging road which is south Nadina  6 River in that valley though.  7 Q   How far is it -- is it close to Poplar Lake?  8 A   No.  9 Q   Is it out farther west?  10 A   Not further west.  It's -- it would be south-east of  11 Poplar Lake in the Nadina River valley on the south  12 side.  13 Q   And, Mrs. Peden, in 1986 my information is that from  14 September the 8th, 1986, through to October the 11th,  15 1986, you had a fall hunt and that was the period for  16 your guiding activity there except for one other  17 period from November the 10th to November the 15th.  18 Does that sound right to you?  19 A   Yes, I guess that's close to the dates.  As I said  20 before, I can't -- can't prove it one way or the other  21 until I see my own records because I don't remember  22 one year to the next how many times we went here or  23 there.  24 Q   And in 1987 you were conducting a fall hunt from  25 September the 7th through to October the 17th?  Does  26 that sound right to you?  27 A   Should be more like September the 10th.  28 Q   Well, if you want to make it September the 10th.  My  29 records show September the 7th, but that's what you  30 recall, is it?  31 A   That's right, because that's when the hunting season  32 opens, September the 10th, so we wouldn't be hunting  33 on September the 8th.  34 Q   All right.  Well, hopefully you weren't hunting then  35 that early.  And in 1988 your hunting season was from  36 September the 19th to October the 23rd; is that right?  37 Not quite a year ago.  Do you recall that?  38 A   Not quite a year ago I know, but it just doesn't seem  39 like -- it's the same question, actually, and the same  40 answers.  I can't remember if we had a party the first  41 week or the week after.  It depends on the dates of  42 when the hunting season opens.  It makes a difference.  43 If it happens to hit in the middle of a week, then you  44 have to put it further down the line to start on a  45 week-end.  So I will have to say yes.  So I had a  46 calendar in front of me so I could look at.  47 Q   All right.  Maybe I can assist you, Mrs. Peden.  I 18757  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  MR.  want to show you some report and declaration of guide  outfitters for the year beginning 1984, and I  understand that these are organized chronologically.  And you'll note that in 1984 it is recorded on the  first of these forms that the hunt occurred from  September 15th to the 20th.  Do you see where that  entry is made here on part 2?  A   Yeah, right.  Q   All right.  And then the next one shows September 24th  to 25th?  A   That's right.  Q   24th to the 29th?  A   That's right.  Q   And October -- well, it looks like October 8th.  And  then October 8th to 13th?  A   That's the same party, right.  Q   Yeah.  October 15th to 19th?  A   Right.  Q   October 15th to 19th, October 22nd to 26th, 22nd to  27th?  A   Um hum.  Q   Yes.  So you'll agree with me here, and I just want to  use this to assist your memory, that your hunting  period for 1984 was September 15th through to October  the 27th?  Yes.  Okay.  All right.  That's right.  :  That was for 1984?  '84.  A  Q  A  COURT  RUSH:  MACKENZIE:  Can my friend tell me where he got these  MR. RUSH:  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  records, please?  What I mean to say is how do we know  that these are all the records that relate to Mrs.  Peden's reporting for that time?  Well, I got these records from my learned friend, who  says he got one batch from Mrs. Peden and there's  another batch from the ministry, and these are Mrs.  Peden's.  These are retained by the guide outfitter.  :  And you've given her everything that you got?  Pardon me?  :  And you have produced everything that you received  in this context?  I have produced everything that I am told the witness  gave to counsel and counsel gave to me.  So I'm  assuming that these are the -- well, I'll ask this.  Mrs. Peden, what I'm directing your attention to 1875?  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  copies that you retained?  is -- these are copies of  A   Yeah, right.  Q   And you were asked to produce certain copies of guide  outfitter declarations, were you?  A   I were -- I was.  Excuse me.  Q   And you accumulated those, and you provided them to  Mr. Mackenzie, didn't you?  A   I did.  Q   Yeah.  And are these the ones that you provided?  A  As far as I can tell, yes, they look like the same  ones .  Q   Okay.  Well, if they're not, tell me because I --  A  Well, I have no way of proving otherwise.  These look  like the copies of the ones I have.  Q   All right.  Let's look at 1985.  And, Mrs. Peden, your  signature appears on every one of these because you're  the outfitter, right?  A   That's right.  Q   So in 1985 it appears to show that from September the  2nd through to September the 4th there was a hunt, two  days?  Here you see in part 2, and here's the entry  here, 02 — 09/02.  A   That's right.  Q   And you weren't involved in that?  That was Mr.  Tourond who went up to Sibola Mountains?  A   That's right.  Q   And then just as we move along I'm directing your  attention at the dates in particular here so we can  understand what period we're talking about, and here  it shows September 15 to September 16?  A   That's right.  Q   And September 15 to September 16 is the third one in  line?  A   That's right.  Q   And September 19 to September 22nd?  A   That's right.  Q   September 19 to 23rd?  A   That's right.  Q   23rd to 24th?  A   That's right.  Q   23rd to 26th?  A   That's right.  Q   23rd to 27?  A   That's right.  Q   And 30th to October the 5th?  A   That's right.  Q   And then a second one October 30th -- sorry -- 18759  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 September 30th to October 5?  2 A   That's right.  3 Q   And another one October -- sorry -- September 30th to  4 October 5?  5 A   Um hum, yes.  6 Q   Yes.  And those last three all were at Kidprice Lake?  7 A   That's right.  8 Q   And the next one I'm showing you, the fourth one, is  9 September 30th to October 5 at Kidprice Lake?  10 A   That's right.  11 Q   And then finally October 7th to October blank.  We  12 don't know what the date of that is, although it was  13 filled out on the 11th, so there might be an  14 assumption that it was on the 11th.  15 A   It might be the 11th.  16 Q   All right.  So just for 1985 can you agree with me  17 that from these report and declarations that there  18 were -- the hunting period that you were involved with  19 in 1985 was September 2nd through to October perhaps  20 the 11th?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   I show you the reports and declarations for 1986.  23 Again you'll agree with me these are with your  24 signature on it; is that right?  25 A   They look like all the same copies of my own  26 outfitter's declarations.  27 Q   All right.  So we can just move through this more  28 quickly, I -- this apparently is the first one of the  29 sequence, and it's dated September 8th to the 13th,  30 and then as we run through it it goes the 15th to the  31 20th of September, another 15th to the 20th September,  32 a third 15th to the 20th, and then the 22nd to the  33 27th of September, another one for that.  You agree  34 with all of this?  35 A   Yeah, I do.  36 Q   Yes.  And the third one for the 22nd to the 27th of  37 September; a fourth for the 22nd to the 27th; and then  38 we go to September 29th to October 4; October 29th to  39 October 4; October 29 -- sorry -- September 29th,  40 October 4; September 29, October 4; and then  41 September -- excuse me -- October 6 to October 11;  42 again 6 to 11; and the last one in sequence here is  43 November 10 to November 15th?  44 A   That's right.  45 Q   So if I may just summarize it, in 1986 there seems to  46 be a relatively continuous period from September 8th  47 through to October the 11th and one hunt at Nadina 18760  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  River from November 10th to November 15th?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  Take the morning adjournment, please.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  short recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RECONVENED PURSUANT TO THE  MORNING BREAK)  THE  THE  MR.  REGISTRAR:  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  Mr.  Order in court.  Rush.  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Thank you.  Now, I was about to -- I think I was about  to show you the guide reports and declarations for  1987, and, Mrs. Peden, I think you said that the  season in 1987 started on September the 10th?  Yes.  The form that appears to have been filed for the first  part of that hunting season was filed on September the  7th, and it shows a hunt from September the 7th to  September the 12th.  Would that hunt have been out of  season?  No, because these forms aren't always made on the day  they start.  Well, it's just that it shows that the hunt is dated  from 09/07 to 09/12.  Right.  Well, can you assist me?  It looks like the hunt is  three days before when you say the season started.  Well, yes, that depends on when the -- what day did  the 7th fall on that week?  I don't know.  Well, I don't know either by looking at it.  Would it matter?  Well, not really, no, because, I mean, those forms --  a lot of times that part of the form is made out.  This is the -- when they're through.  This is the date  when they're through.  That first one shows to be dated September 13th?  Right.  All right.  And so you make the forms up, and this is before they  go out to hunt, and this is when they return.  This is  the date -- that's the date they return from their  hunt or finish their hunt.  Let's put it that way.  Just assist me here, Mrs. Peden.  If you're right that 18761  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 the season opened on September the 10th, would this  2 form seem to indicate that if the hunt started on  3 September the 7th that there would be three days of  4 hunting out of season?  5 A   No, that's not right because that form could be made  6 out ahead of the -- ahead of the season.  7 Q   I see.  So you say that the form could be wrong?  8 A   The form isn't really wrong.  It just is if I make  9 those out, I don't make them out the day we leave the  10 house to go hunting.  I make them out maybe a couple,  11 three days ahead because I've got a lot of paperwork,  12 I've got hunters sitting there waiting to go hunting,  13 and I haven't got time to sit down there the day I --  14 the morning I leave at maybe four o'clock in the  15 morning to make up these lousy forms.  16 Q   I see.  I'm just wondering why you would make up a  17 form that shows that the hunt started before the  18 season opened.  19 A  Why not?  20 Q   Well, I would assume that that might be contrary to  21 the Wildlife Act.  22 A   It isn't because --  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, I don't think that's an  24 appropriate question to be asking this witness.  It's  25 a question of law, what the Wildlife Act means.  26 MR. RUSH:  Well, I guess we wouldn't expect a guide hunter to  27 have any knowledge about the Wildlife Act.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  What's the date of departure got to do with the  29 Wildlife Act?  I don't understand what my friend's  30 questions are leading to, my lord.  31 THE COURT:  Well, the relevance is only a matter that can be  32 determined when I've heard the evidence.  There does  33 seem to be an anomaly here somewhere.  I'm not sure  34 that there's any reason why it shouldn't be cleared  35 up.  What's the difficulty, Mr. Mackenzie, in having  36 the witness explain how it is that her reports show a  37 hunt starting or appearing to start before the opening  38 of the season?  Maybe there's a simple explanation for  39 it.  Maybe there's been a breach of the act.  If there  40 is, that wouldn't be the worst thing that ever  41 happened in western civilization.  Maybe it isn't  42 something that would make much difference.  We're into  43 it.  Why not straighten it out?  You may proceed, Mr.  44 Rush.  4 5    MR. RUSH:  46 Q   Can you assist us further on this?  47 A   Yes, I can.  By reading everything here, it's a goat 18762  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 hunt.  Goats open on the 1st of September.  2 Q Oh, I see.  So that's the explanation?  3 A Yes.  4 Q So your evidence is that the hunt then started on the  5 1st of September?  6 A No, it did not start on the 1st of September.  It just  7 is that the goat season opens on the 1st of September,  8 and my party apparently started on the 7th.  9 Q The 7th.  And when does the moose season open?  10 A It opens on the 10th.  11 Q I see.  Okay.  Well, that helps us very much.  So the  12 first form here is September the 7th, right?  13 A Right.  14 Q To September the 12th?  15 A Right.  And it's a goat party that went to Nanika  16 Lake.  17 Q Yes.  All right.  And the next one is September the  18 14th to September the 19th?  19 A That's right.  20 Q And there we get the moose hunt happening; is that  21 right?  22 A That's right.  23 Q And that seems to be after your September 10th date?  24 A It is.  25 Q And then from September 14th to September 19th?  26 A Yes.  27 Q The 21st to the 26th?  28 A That's right.  29 Q 21st to the 26th?  30 A Yes.  31 Q 21st to the 26th?  32 A That's right.  33 Q Next one is the 21st to the 26th?  34 A Excuse me.  Yes.  35 Q And then the same with the next one, 21st to the 26th  36 of September?  37 A Yes.  38 Q And then this one goes from September the 28th to  39 October the 3rd?  40 A That's right.  41 Q And September the 28th to October the 3rd?  42 A Right.  43 Q 28th to the 3rd?  44 A Yes.  45 Q And the same with that, October 28th to the 3rd?  46 A Yes.  47 Q The 5th to the 10th? 18763  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  40  THE  COURT  41  42  THE  WITNE  43  THE  COURT  44  THE  WITNE  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  47  Yes.  The 5th to the 10th?  Yes.  And the 12th to the 17th?  Right.  And finally, the 12th to the 17th?  Right.  Which would show that guide hunting period to run from  September the 7th, if we were to accept these forms,  to October the 17th?  Right.  All right.  Very good.  :  What was the last date, October 17th?  Yes, my lord.  That's 1987.  :  Yes.  Now, can I direct your attention, please, to the  report and declaration of guide outfitters for the  year of 1988, and this first form -- which is  apparently signed by you; is that right?  That's right.  -- shows the period from September 19th to September  24th?  Yes.  September 19th to the 24th?  That's right.  And September 26th to October the 1st, is it?  Excuse me.  Where is it?  The month.  That's right.  Right.  And September 26th to October the 1st?  That's right.  And September -- excuse me -- October the 17th to  October the 23rd?  That's right.  All right.  So we seem to have a period there from  September 19th through to October the 1st, and then  October the 10th to October the 23rd --  Yes.  -- is that right?  Okay.  So those are 1988 forms.  :  That's an unusually late start for a year, September  19th.  Is there a reason for that?  3S:  That's the only time our parties could come in.  :  Do you need a glass of water?  3S:  Yes, please.  I'd like these separately -- these years to be  separately marked, 1984 to be the next exhibit and  then '85, '86, '87, and '88 sequentially. 18764  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  THE COURT:  All right.  '84 will be 1097, won't it, madam  registrar?  THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, my lord.  THE COURT:  And then the rest of them just sequentially from  there.  THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, my lord.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  (EXHI  1984  (EXHI  1985  (EXHI  1986  (EXHI  1987  (EXHI  1988  BIT 1097  - PEDEN)  BIT 1098  - PEDEN)  BIT 1099  - PEDEN)  BIT 1100  - PEDEN)  BIT 1101  - PEDEN)  REPORT & DECLARATION OF GUIDE OUTFITTER  REPORT & DECLARATION OF GUIDE OUTFITTER  REPORT & DECLARATION OF GUIDE OUTFITTER  REPORT & DECLARATION OF GUIDE OUTFITTER  REPORT & DECLARATION OF GUIDE OUTFITTER  REGISTRAR:  That takes us up to Exhibit 1101.  RUSH:  All right.  May I have those back, please, madam  registrar?  REGISTRAR:  Yes.  RUSH:  Q   I'm going to place these exhibits in front of you,  Mrs. Peden.  If you need to refer to them, you may.  I  want to ask you if I'm correct in my evaluation of  these forms, running Exhibits 1097 through to 1101,  that in 1984 you personally were guiding in your  guiding area for 24 days?  Does that sound about right  to you?  A   I guess if I counted them up, whatever days that was  on here.  How many days?  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  MR.  THE  A  RUSH:  COURT  Twenty-four.  And in 1985 my count comes to 14 days.  Oh, I'd have to go through all these and count when I  was guiding and when my assistant was guiding,  etcetera.  All right.  Well, perhaps you could do that over the  lunch hour, but I'm just -- I'd simply like you to  confirm, if you will, by reviewing these forms that  have been submitted as exhibits the numbers of days  that you personally were guiding.  Okay.  Do you understand?  Well, I think, Mr. Rush, you should state what your  calculation of these is. 18765  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  Very good.  2 THE COURT:  These are matters of detail.  3 MR. RUSH:  4 Q   Yes.  All right.  In 1986, Mrs. Peden, my count is 30  5 days; in 1987, 24; and in 1988, 6.  And I've simply  6 gone through and counted the number of days it appears  7 that you personally were guiding in those years.  8 A   Okay.  9 MR. WILLMS:  Sorry, what —  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  I didn't get those dates.  11 MR. RUSH:  12 Q   '86, 30; '87, 24; and '88, 6.  13 Now, I'll ask you to recall this, Mrs. Peden, if  14 you can, but my summary of these forms suggest to me  15 that overwhelmingly you did most of your guiding at  16 Nadina River?  17 A  Most of it, yes.  18 Q   Now, you were asked some questions about access to the  19 Kidprice Lake, Stepp Lake area?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Do you recall that?  And there was some discussion  22 about, well, how do you get into these places?  23 A   That's right.  24 Q   And you told Mr. Mackenzie that there was an old trail  25 that ran along Stepp Lake, Kidprice Lake to Nanika  26 Lake?  27 A   To Kidprice Lake, not to Nanika Lake.  28 Q   Not to Nanika Lake.  Is this trail the trail that runs  29 from Lamprey Lake along the lake and river system down  30 to Kidprice?  31 A   Yes, it does.  32 Q   And I take it that you yourself haven't been on that  33 trail?  34 A   No, I have not been on that trail.  35 Q   All right.  And you told us that the way that you and  36 your hunters have got into Kidprice is you fly in?  37 A   That's right.  38 Q   And do -- I understood your evidence -- or let me  39 suggest to you that the reason that you fly in is that  40 it's easier to get your clients and your equipment  41 into where you're going to start the hunt?  42 A  Well, it's about the only way to get in there.  43 Q   Well, presumably you could have walked?  44 A   Yes, if your hunters would walk that far.  45 Q   Well, that's the point.  They wouldn't, would they?  4 6 A   No.  47 Q   Now, I want to ask you about Morrison and Knudsen, if 18766  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  THE COURT  6  7  8  MR. RUSH:  9  THE COURT  10  MR. RUSH:  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  9  I have the names right.  Morrison Knudsen.  Is that the same person or is that a company  It's a company, two names.  It starts with a "K."  :  I thought you would be well aware of them, Mr. Rush.  They are the only case that's gone longer than this  one that I know of.  I'm not saying I'm not aware of them, my lord.  :  You have a long way to go to catch them.  Well, we'll certainly do our best, my lord.  I want to ask you, you said that your brother  Barry worked in the tunnelling at Kemano?  Well, the tunnel that goes through from the west end  of Fran -- or excuse me -- Tahtsa Lake through to  Kemano, yes.  All right.  And can you tell me, was he working for  Morrison Knudsen?  Well, I guess that's who would put it through, whoever  was -- company was doing it.  All right.  How long was he working there?  At least two years.  Do you know when?  No.  Was that in the early '50s?  I suppose so.  I don't remember the dates.  And you also talked about the same time in your  evidence about a Jack Nicholson?  That's right.  And you said that he had a logging operation in the  early '50s?  That's right.  Did you ever see his logging operation?  Yes.  And his logging was a selective style of logging,  wasn't it?  I guess you can put it that way.  I mean, he selected various species and places to cut  and boom, cut and then drag and boom?  I guess it would be selective logging.  I guess that's  what you'd call it.  I don't remember whether they  called it selective logging or not.  It wasn't clear-cut logging?  No, it wasn't clear-cut logging.  And do you remember how long his business operated?  No, I don't.  And do you have a recollection about when it was that 18767  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 other -- that you began to notice the presence of  2 other logging outfits other than Mr. Nicholson's, if  3 there were any?  4 A   Yeah, there were some.  There was other logging  5 started in the area.  Let me see.  6 Q   Well, I can come back to that, Mrs. Peden.  7 A  Well, you're going right back to dates again, so I'd  8 have to think about it.  9 Q   All right.  You told us that you'd been out to Blue  10 Lake and Elbow Lake, I think?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And, in fact, Duck Lake.  And can you tell me, these  13 lakes are located, are they, to the south of Nadina  14 Mountain?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And a little bit west of Nadina Mountain, are they?  17 A  Well, they're more south-east.  18 Q   South-east.  All right.  And you told us that the  19 areas around these lakes have been logged off?  20 A   Some of them, not all of them.  21 Q   I took a note that you'd said that there was logging  22 out to Blue Lake and Elbow Lake and there was logging  23 around Duck Lake.  24 A   Yes, right.  25 Q   And this is clear-cut logging, isn't it?  26 A   It is.  27 Q   And can you tell us in terms of mileage how far from  28 the end of Francois Lake does that logging extend west  29 towards Duck Lake and Elbow Lake?  What would be the  30 distance?  Can you recall that?  31 A  Well, it goes past Duck Lake.  It goes right up to  32 the -- the Poplar Lake, Tagetochlain Lake.  It's all  33 logged.  It goes right on through to Nadina Lake.  So  34 in miles Nadina Lake from the west end of Francois  35 Lake is 30 miles.  36 Q   All right.  37 A  And there's clear-cut logging on both sides of the  38 valley, in the valley all the way up to Nadina Lake.  39 Q   For that distance of 30 miles?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And there's clear-cut -- I had the impression from  42 what you were saying as well that new logging roads  43 are being built, and I take it that the logging is  44 being extended west and south?  45 A   That's right.  46 Q   And this is clear-cut logging, isn't it?  47 A   It is clear-cut logging. 1876?  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  13  14  15  THE  REGIS1  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  RUSH:  47  Q  And just so that we understand what we're both talking  about, can you tell me what you understand clear-cut  logging to be?  Everything's cut down.  Okay.  Now, the clear-cut logging disrupts the moose  and the bear patterns, doesn't it?  Yes, it does.  And it's certainly ruinous to the habitat where they  feed?  Yes, it is.  And I want to show you a photograph, Mrs. Peden.  It's Exhibit 77, photo 6.  Madam registrar, I may be  able to proceed without your getting an additional  copy by using my own.  PRAR:  Yes.  This I believe is Exhibit 77, photo 6.  Mrs. Peden, do  you recognize the scene shown in the photograph?  That's Nadina Mountain.  That's Nadina Mountain in the background, right?  Right.  And can you determine the road that's shown?  Do you  know where that road is?  Are you able to say?  Just trying to figure it out.  I would say it was on  the south side of the Nadina River valley.  Okay.  It's hard to determine from that photograph  exactly where it is, I take it?  Well, yes.  It's -- definitely that's Nadina Mountain  in the background.  All right.  And I would say it was on the south side of the Nadina  River valley.  And do you agree with me that this scene in the  foreground shows clear-cut logging?  Yes, it definitely does.  And is that the type of clear-cut logging that you see  when you go out towards Nadina Lake?  Yes, I do.  My lord, the reference for Exhibit 77, photo 6 is  page 2216, volume 34.  :  77-46?  Excuse me, my lord.  It's Exhibit 77, but in Exhibit  77 there are six photographs, and this is the sixth  photograph in sequence, so it should be 77-6.  :  Yes.  Thank you.  And volume 34. 18769  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 I wanted to ask you, Mrs. Peden, about your -- you  2 said that you were for a period of time on campfire  3 control?  4 A   That's right.  5 Q   Do you remember the summers that you were doing that?  6 A   Not in sequence, no.  7 Q   Okay.  Do you remember how many summers you did that?  8 A   Not really.  9 Q   All right.  The -- as I understood your evidence, the  10 period of time that you were doing that was from May  11 to September?  12 A   Yes, according, as I said, to the weather.  13 Q   Yes.  And the period of time that you were doing the  14 patrols is the same period of time where there is no  15 hunting or trapping done?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And as I understand it, what you did was you checked  18 the forestry campsites, and you found mainly American  19 and European tourists there?  20 A  Mostly, yes.  21 Q   I wanted to ask you about the fishery activity at  22 Nadina Lake as you have described it.  Do you remember  23 that?  You were asked some questions about whether or  24 not the province had been involved in any fishery  25 activity at Nadina?  26 A   That's right.  27 Q   And you said they were dumping some gravel into the  28 lake or the river?  29 A  Well, that's what I'm told they're supposed to be  30 doing.  I haven't seen them do it yet.  31 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Well, that's what I wanted to come to.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Sorry, my friend is misrepresenting the  33 evidence.  There was no evidence about Nadina Lake.  34 It was Nadina River that the Federal Fisheries  35 operation is taking place, and that was the evidence.  36 MR. RUSH:  The which operation, the Federal Fisheries?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  3 8    MR. RUSH:  39 Q   I was asking about the provincial.  You understood  40 that, didn't you, Mrs. Peden?  41 A  Well, I presumed that's what you were talking about,  42 yes.  43 Q   I want to be sure that you understand.  My  44 recollection of your evidence is that you talked about  45 a channel which was managed by the Federal Fisheries  4 6 department --  47 A   That's right. 18770  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q — is that right?  2 A That's on the Nadina River.  3 Q That's right.  And you also talked about the dumping  4 of some gravels into Nadina Lake?  5 A Yeah, there's a proposed deal going on or -- to do  6 with it.  7 Q All right.  But I take it you haven't seen this, and  8 all of your information comes from somebody else, is  9 that it?  10 A Yes, I was told that's what was supposed to happen.  I  11 have not seen it done.  12 Q And what you understood was supposed to happen is the  13 dumping of gravels into the lake to permit spawning?  14 A Into the river.  15 Q Excuse me, into the river.  16 A Right.  17 Q And is that Nadina River?  18 A That is Nadina River.  19 Q And this is a proposal that has not yet reached --  20 A As far as I know, I don't think it's started yet.  21 Q Okay.  Now, I wanted to ask you about Jones Lake.  You  22 said you'd been there.  When were you there?  23 A Last fall.  24 Q Is that the first time you've been there?  25 A No.  2 6 Q How many times have you been there?  27 A Several times.  I don't know how many times.  Heck, I  28 run in and out of that road, and I don't keep track.  29 Q I see.  The period of time that you were going to  30 Jones Lake, is that within the last three years?  31 A Yes.  32 Q You talked also about Bill Nye Lake?  33 A Yes.  34 Q Do you know who Bill Nye was?  35 A No.  36 Q Do you know him to have been an Indian person?  37 A No.  38 Q And I think you mentioned that you had been to Bill  39 Nye Lake, had you?  40 A Yes.  41 Q And when were you there?  42 A Oh, gosh, several years ago, but I couldn't tell you  43 what year.  44 Q Okay.  Was it on just one occasion?  45 A Yes, it is.  46 Q And there was another lake that you made mention of.  47 I think it was Co-op Lake? 18771  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  MR.  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Co-op.  -op.  MACKENZIE  RUSH:  Co-op  Co-op?  Yeah, Co  business.  That's the way I wrote  Yeah, Co-op right.  Not Coop.  Like a co-op, a store or --  it, Co-op, C-o-o-p.  you know  MR.  THE  MR.  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  And Co-op Lake, when were you there?  Well, I haven't been there yet this year, but I was  there last year.  Okay.  Now, Mrs. Peden, were you aware or did you  become aware in October of 1984 that the Gitksan-  Wet 'suwet 'en hereditary chiefs had started this court  case?  No.  When was your first knowledge about the court case?  I really don't remember.  Did you have any knowledge of a notice that was placed  in a -- in the local newspaper, in the Houston or the  Burns Lake newspaper, about the fact that the Gitksan  and Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs had placed a lis  pendens on property in the -- in your area and in the  area of their claim?  Not that I -- not to my knowledge, no.  And I wanted to direct your attention again to Exhibit  310 I believe it is.  This must be it here.  Here we  are.  312.  You indicated that you knew Enoch Seymour?  Yes, a long time ago.  Okay.  And I think you were not able to identify the  woman who is in Exhibit 312?  That's right, I can't.  And you can't say whether or not she was related to  Enoch Seymour?  No, I can't.  And I think I showed you -- that's the photograph, my  lord, of Sarah Layton at Exhibit 312.  :  Yes.  And I showed you the photograph of an older woman  holding a baby, which is Exhibit 309, and you said  that you were unable to identify the woman in the  photograph?  That's right.  And I suggested  Holland?  Yes, you did.  to you that that was Christine 18772  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  MR. RUSH:  46  THE COURT  47  All right.  And I want to show you now Exhibit 308,  and I just ask you if you can identify the person in  the photograph?  I cannot identify the person in the photograph.  Okay.  The fact of the matter is, Mrs. Peden, that  you, I think, as I understand your evidence, cannot --  you do not know the names of any of the Seymours or  any of the Hollands?  No, except Enoch Seymour is the only --  Except Enoch.  -- one with a first name that I remember.  The  Hollands were just Hollands.  I don't know any first  names.  And you -- of the people that I've shown you at least,  you can't recognize any of those people?  No.  Do you think you could recognize any of the Seymours  or Hollands?  I don't think if I saw Enoch Seymour today I would  even recognize him because it's years since I've seen  him.  I see.  I don't even know if he's still alive.  Well, given that, Mrs. Peden, you said that since 1960  you hadn't seen any of the Seymours or the Hollands  around, and if you don't know their names and you  can't recognize them, how do you know you hadn't seen  them around?  Well, I have seen very few natives in the area.  Let's  put it that way.  And that's the way you would tell us that you hadn't  seen them around, is it?  Right.  I see.  I neglected to ask you, Mrs. Peden -- you have  at least one child, Mr. Tourond.  Do you have other  children?  No, I don't.  Okay.  One other question for you.  Hay Lake and Hay  Meadow Lake, are they the same place?  Yes, they are.  I thought so.  And Hay Lake and Hay Meadow Lake, are  they both in the -- they both go by the same name you  say.  Are they both in the Nadina River valley?  They are.  Thank you.  Those are my questions, my lord.  :  Thank you.  Re-examination? 18773  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Re-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q   Mrs. Peden, Mr. Rush went through the hunting seasons  3 with you and your guiding activities.  Do you go into  4 the guiding area before or after the hunting season?  5 A   Yes, sometimes we do or at least we try to do if we  6 have time to go in before we hunt, but not all the  7 areas.  Say the closer areas around home base,  8 especially where we drive on the roads partway to  9 clear out wind falls and that before -- prior to the  10 hunts, if we have time.  But further back for flying  11 trips, no.  We haven't got the time to do it.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  That completes my questions  13 for Mrs. Peden.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Thank you, madam.  You're  15 excused.  16 THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  17  18 (WITNESS ASIDE)  19  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, we've discussed with my learned friend,  21 Mr. Rush, commencing the next witness, and subject to  22 your lordship's directions, we would ask to take the  23 noon adjournment now and commence the next witness,  24 Mr. Tourond, at two o'clock.  25 MR. RUSH:  I don't have a problem with that.  26 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Is he a witness we can finish  27 today or is he going to go over?  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  He will probably go over to Monday morning, my  29 lord.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  Counsel don't think we're going to run  31 out of time by reason of losing 20 minutes, do they?  32 MR. RUSH:  I'm sure that if we have that fear, my lord, we'll  33 make it up this evening at 4:00.  34 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Two o'clock.  35 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  36 two o'clock.  37  38 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:05 P.M.)  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18774  B.L. Peden (for Province)  Re-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  2 a true and accurate transcript of the  3 proceedings herein to the best of my  4 skill and ability.  5  6  7  8 Leanna Smith  9 Official Reporter  10 United Reporting Service Ltd.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18775  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:00 P.M.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Go ahead, Mr. Rush, I can still hear all right.  5 MR. RUSH:  Well in that case, I'll defer to Mr. Mackenzie.  It  6 is his next witness.  7 THE COURT:  Yes, of course.  Mr. Mackenzie, are you ready to  8 proceed?  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  Mr. Tourond.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Will you stand in the witness box, please, sir,  11 and take the Bible in your right hand.  12  13 JAMES PETER TOUROND, a witness called  14 on behalf of the Provincial  15 Defendant herein, having been duly  16 sworn, testifies as follows:  17  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your full name and spell your  19 last name, please, sir?  20 THE WITNESS:  James Peter Tourond, T-O-U-R-O-N-D.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, sir.  Please be seated.  22  23 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   Mr. Tourond, do you pronounce your name Tourond or  25 Tourond?  26 A   Tourond.  27 Q   Tourond.  Mr. Tourond, you were born in Vanderhoop in  28 1949?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And where did you live -- I take it -- where did you  31 live after you were born, in the early years?  I think  32 I'll lead you on this evidence.  I take it you came  33 home with your parents?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Perhaps you can tell his lordship where you lived in  36 your early years while you were growing up?  37 MR. RUSH:  I would like my friend to avoid the hearsay, my lord.  38 A  Well, I obviously lived with my parents and at  39 Francois Lake and various other locations where, in  40 the early years, where my father had to work, either  41 on forestry look-outs or logging camps.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   What is the time in your life when you can first  44 recollect places where you were living?  45 A   Probably five years old or four years old or  4 6 something.  47 Q   When you -- your first recollection is living at what 18776  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 place?  2 A I can remember living in the cabin which was on my  3 grandfather's property.  4 Q And where was that?  5 A At the west end of Francois Lake.  6 Q And do you know how long you were living there?  7 A I think up until I was about five years old or  8 thereabouts, periodically, and then we moved to the  9 present location where I live now.  10 Q When you say your grandfather, you mean your mother --  11 your mother's father?  12 A That's correct.  13 Q And your mother is Barbara Peden?  14 A That's correct.  15 Q You spoke about when you moved to the place where you  16 live now, and where is that place now?  17 A That's also at the west end of Francois Lake, district  18 lot 324.  19 Q And where is that in relation to the Tatla Reserve  20 which has been mentioned in these proceedings?  21 A It's just adjacent, on the west side of the Tatla  22 Reserve.  23 Q And did your father own that property when you were  24 living there as a child?  25 A That's correct.  2 6 Q And speaking about the lot where your home was?  27 A Lot, yes.  2 8 Q And what was your father's name?  29 A Pete Tourond or Peter Tourond.  30 Q Do you know when he bought that lot?  31 A Not exactly.  It was when I was five years old or six  32 years old.  Five years old, probably.  I'm not sure.  33 Q About 1954?  34 A Something like that, yeah.  35 Q How long did you live on that lot across from the  36 Tatla Reserve -- or adjacent to the Tatla Reserve, I'm  37 sorry?  38 A I lived there until I was out of high school.  39 Q And when was that?  40 A 1970.  41 Q And while you were living there, during those years,  42 you went to school?  43 A Yes.  44 Q And where did you go to school?  45 A I first went to school at the Noralee School and then  46 the high school in Burns Lake.  47 Q And what did you do after you completed high school? 18777  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Immediately after high school?  2 Q   Yeah?  3 A   I worked the summer as soon as I got out of high  4 school and then I went to Australia and New Zealand  5 for the winter and returned the following spring back  6 to the same location.  7 Q   And now are we to 1972?  8 A   Yeah, 1972.  9 Q   While -- you say you graduated from school in 1970?  10 A   That's correct.  11 Q   While you were going to school, where did you live?  12 A  Well, in high school I boarded in Burns Lake, either  13 at a friend's place or I also boarded at the dormitory  14 that they built in Burns Lake.  15 Q   And did you return home to your home near the Tatla  16 Reserve?  17 A   Yes.  On every weekend.  18 Q   Now you returned -- we have you returning from your  19 trip to New Zealand.  What did you do after that?  2 0 A   I worked in a logging camp for awhile and then I  21 joined the Forest Service in 1982 -- or '72, sorry.  22 Q   You worked in a logging camp and when -- where was  23 that?  24 A   The logging camp was located at Andrew Bay and Ootsa  25 Lake.  26 Q   We have had reference to that in these proceedings.  27 What were you doing at the logging camp?  28 A   I was a grease monkey.  2 9 Q   And how long were you there?  30 A   I was there just for a few months.  31 Q   Did you do any guiding during those early years after  32 high school?  33 A   Yes.  I guided once for my Uncle Martin and for my  34 Uncle Barry Grainger.  35 Q   And you referred to your Uncle Martin.  Is that Martin  36 Grainger?  37 A  Martin Grainger.  38 Q   And are Barry Grainger and Martin Grainger your  39 mother's brothers?  40 A   That's correct, mm-hmm.  41 Q   Did you continue to live at Francois Lake during those  42 years before you joined the Forest Service after high  43 school?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And when you joined the Forest Service did you move  46 away from the Francois Lake area?  47 A   Yes.  I moved to Terrace. 1877?  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   How long did you live in Terrace?  2 A  Approximately two years, and the latter part of the  3 second year I moved to Smithers for a month.  4 Q   What were you doing in Terrace?  5 A   I was working on a forestry crew.  6 Q   Did your duties on the forestry crew take you anywhere  7 into the land claims area in this case which would be  8 starting at about Dorreen, which his lordship  9 mentioned this morning, on the Skeena River?  10 A   Yes.  I worked out of Kitwanga and Hazelton.  11 Q   What duties or jobs were you involved in in those days  12 as -- on the forestry crew?  13 A   Timber cruising, timber block layout, planting  14 projects, tree planting projects, regeneration  15 surveys, planting survival surveys, and Mountain Pine-  16 Beetle infestation surveys.  17 Q   And what is timber block layout?  18 A   Locating a block of timber that is suitable for  19 logging and actually traversing the perimeter of the  20 block to determine size and post corners and ribbon in  21 between, so the block has a boundary for the loggers  22 to stay within.  23 Q   And did you have occasion to observe Mountain Pine-  24 Beetle infestation in the areas you were working near  25 Kitwanga and Hazelton?  26 A   That's correct.  27 Q   After you lived in Smithers for one month, what did  28 you do?  29 A   I moved to Houston.  30 Q   And what year would we be at now, please?  31 A   '74.  32 Q   1974?  33 A   1974, yes.  34 Q   And how long did you live at Houston?  35 A   Up until eight years ago, nine years ago.  36 Q   So that's about 1981?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And did you continue to work for the Forest Service  39 while you were living in Houston?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And during that year -- or during those years did you  42 have occasion to travel back to the Francois Lake  43 area?  44 A   Yes.  Many times.  45 Q   Did you have occasion to travel back to your father's  46 property near the Tatla Reserve?  47 A   Yes.  Many times. 18779  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And what frequency would you be travelling to that  2 property?  3 A   There was a lot of weekends I would spend out at --  4 out at Francois Lake at the property and neighbours,  5 and also some of my forestry related duties were in  6 the vicinity of Francois Lake and my home property.  7 Q   How far away is your home -- your home near Tatla  8 Reserve from Houston?  9 A   Forty miles on the Morice-Owen Road.  10 THE COURT:  Sorry, on which road?  11 THE WITNESS:  On the Morice-Owen Road.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q   What is that Morice-Owen Road?  14 A   It is a Forest Service road.  15 Q   And where does it start and where does it end?  16 A   It starts just west of Houston on Highway 16, proceeds  17 along the Morice River, one branch of it -- well, the  18 Morice-Owen continues on past Owen Lake and terminates  19 at -- where it crosses the Nadina River.  20 Q   Is that road open all year round?  21 A   Yes, it is.  22 Q   Was it open during those days that you were living in  23 Houston?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   That takes us now to 1981.  Another question about  26 those years at Houston.  You said that your duties  27 took you down to Francois Lake.  With what frequency  28 would your Forest Service duties take you to the  29 Francois Lake area?  30 A  Well, it was an area that I was given responsibility  31 for, so maybe three times a week or twice a week  32 depending on what the job was and how long it took.  33 Q   And speaking generally, what -- first question:  What  34 forestry district were you working in at that time?  35 A   In the early years it was called the Houston Forest  36 District and it's been changed to the Morice Forest  37 District.  38 Q   And how far afield would the course of your duties  39 take you in those?  40 A   Right to Tahtsa Lake, Morice Lake, Francois Lake, down  41 into the Ootsa Lake, I was in charge of the logging  42 operation in the Andrew Bay area.  43 Q   And speaking generally again, what means of  44 transportation did you use during the course of your  45 duties during those years in that area west and  46 south-west of Francois Lake?  47 A  Mostly by vehicle, some of the more remote areas was 18780  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 by aircraft, mostly helicopter.  2 Q   Did you carry out any duties north of Francois Lake?  3 A   Like towards Parrott Lake?  4 Q   Towards Parrott Lake, for example?  5 A   Yes, yes.  Parrott Lake, Sam Goosly Lake.  6 Q   Sam Goosly Lake?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Those lakes are in the Morice Forest District?  9 A   Yes, they are.  10 Q   Now after 1981, did you move from Houston?  11 A   Yes, I did.  12 Q   And where did you go?  13 A   I moved out to the property that I presently reside  14 on.  15 Q   And that's your father's former property?  16 A   That's correct.  17 Q   And do you own that now?  18 A   I do.  19 Q   And how did it come about that you came to own that  20 property?  21 A  When my father passed away, I inherited it through the  22 will.  23 Q   And when did your father pass away?  24 A   '77, I think.  25 Q   And does your mother, Barbara Peden, live there with  2 6 you now?  27 A   She does.  2 8 Q   And your family lives there with you now?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   You have lived at that property since 1981?  31 A   That's correct.  32 Q   For how long have you or did you continue to work with  33 the Forest Service?  34 A   I continued to work with the Forest Service until the  35 end of April of 1989.  36 Q   And what were your job titles?  What was the position  37 that you held while you were working at the Forest  38 Service in Houston?  39 A  Well, I first started out as Assistant Ranger, then  40 through the various reorganizations of the Ministry of  41 Forests my title changed to Forest Assistant, and then  42 through another upheaval I then became Forest  43 Technician.  My job duties did not change, just a  44 different title.  45 Q   Would you tell his lordship how you would describe the  46 job responsibilities you had in those years in  47 Houston? 18781  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  My job responsibilities were administering the Forest  2 Act in various capacities, administering logging  3 contracts to both large companies and to small  4 business operators, mining-for-use permits.  5 Q   Sorry, what did you say?  6 A  Mining-for-use permits.  I also helped with grazing  7 permits and all the protection work, fire and insect,  8 silva cultural work, tree planting, various surveys  9 related to tree planting.  10 Q   Did you have any occasion to communicate with  11 registered trappers in the area?  12 A   Yes, some.  13 Q   In the course of your Forest Service duties?  14 A   Yes.  In the latter years we notified them if there  15 was logging in the area.  16 Q   After April 1989 what employment and occupation have  17 you had?  18 A   Self-employed.  19 Q   And how would you describe your current self-  2 0 employment?  21 A   I've obtained contracts with the Ministry of Forests  22 for doing tree planting supervision work, timber block  23 layout, traversing, and also I obtained a small  24 contract to put up directional signs for the Ministry  25 of Forests on the various roads.  26 Q   And do you carry on any other occupation?  27 A  Well, becoming -- or getting prepared for our guiding  28 season this fall.  29 Q   Have you been involved in the guiding business  30 generally?  31 A   Yes, I have.  32 Q   Since when have you been involved in the guiding  33 business?  34 A   Since my mother took it over from her brother.  35 Q   Speaking about your mother's guiding operation?  3 6 A   Um-hmm.  37 Q   And have you assisted your mother in her guiding  38 business?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And you hold an assistant -- do you hold a licence  41 related to that occupation?  42 A   Yes.  I hold an assistant guide -- big-game guide's  43 licence and assistant fishing guide's licence.  Except  44 I haven't got this year's yet.  45 Q   I would like to go back, and after that survey, and  46 look at some of the years in more detail.  First, I  47 want to ask you about the years that you -- before you 18782  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 went to high school.  During those years, you were  2 going to the Noralee Elementary School?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And what sort of activities, recreational activities,  5 apart from your school activities, did you have in  6 those days?  7 A   Related to the school or --  8 Q   No.  Outdoor activities or recreational activities?  9 A  Well, when I was old enough to hunt, I hunted with my  10 family, fished, hiked, and then took in community  11 events like first July picnics, May long-weekend  12 activities.  13 Q   And with whom did you hunt?  14 A  With my parents.  15 Q   And did you hunt on your own as well?  16 A  When I was old enough, yes.  17 Q   What game animals did you hunt?  18 A  Mostly moose, deer and mountain goat.  19 Q   And did you eat game meat at home?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And what proportion of the meat that you were eating  22 in your house would have been wild game meat?  23 A   I would say probably 95 percent or more was wild meat  2 4 of some sort.  25 Q   With whom did you fish?  26 A  With my parents or friend or on my own.  27 Q   What type of fish did you catch?  28 A   Rainbow trout, char, Dolly Varden.  29 Q   With respect to hunting, what areas were you hunting  30 in those days before you left to go to Burns Lake High  31 School?  32 A  Mostly in the vicinity of the west end of Francois  33 Lake, near my home.  34 Q   What time of year would you be hunting those animals?  35 A   In the fall season during hunting season.  36 Q   Where did you conduct -- where did you do your  37 fishing?  38 A   In various lakes in the same vicinity as hunting.  39 Q   Did you -- did your family do any trapping, any member  40 of your family do any trapping?  41 A  My uncle trapped.  42 Q   Which uncle was that?  43 A   Barry Grainger.  44 Q   Did you ever participate in that activity?  45 A   No.  Well, when I was a young kid I had one or two  46 traps around the house that I played with, but that  4 7              was it. 18783  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Did you ever go out on the trapline with your uncle?  2 A   Once or twice.  3 Q   In those years were there native people living near  4 your home in the Noralee area?  5 A  What years are you referring to?  6 Q   In the years before you went to Burns Lake High School  7 while you were going to Noralee?  8 A   Yes.  There was Matthew Sam, his wife Amelia, and  9 their daughter Violet.  10 Q   Can you recall any other native people in your  11 neighbourhood in those days when you were growing up?  12 A   There was a part-native family, the Robert Larson  13 family.  14 Q   Is that Larson?  15 A   Larson.  16 Q   And where did they live?  17 A   They lived about three miles northeast of our place.  18 Q   And where did the Matthew Sam -- where did Matthew Sam  19 and his family live?  20 A   On the Tatla Reserve.  21 Q   Did you have occasion to visit Matthew Sam's house?  22 A   I think I was there once or twice with my mother.  I  23 am not sure.  I think so.  24 THE COURT:  That was Matthew Sam that you visited once or twice,  25 was it, or Larsons?  26 THE WITNESS:  Matthew Sam.  2 7    THE COURT:  Thank you.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q   Now, when you were at Burns Lake -- first of all, when  30 you were going to school at Noralee, were there any  31 native or part-native students in the school when you  32 were there?  33 A   Yes.  Violet Sam was in school and the Larson family,  34 the kids of the Larson family.  35 Q   How many students were in the school in those days?  36 This is in your elementary grades?  37 A   There was maybe 20, somewhere around 20 students.  38 Q   And how did you get to school in the '50's -- '60's, I  39 guess?  40 A   Yeah.  I walked -- well, some of the time I walked  41 about a mile, mile and a half to where the bus would  42 pick me up, which would be east of my place, on the  43 east side of the Tatla Reserve.  44 Q   And how did Violet Sam get to school, to your  45 knowledge?  46 A   She did the same thing as I did.  47 Q   Did she ride the bus with you? 18784  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  And also -- then there was a time where my  2 parents drove me down to the school.  3 Q   What was your father doing in the early years that you  4 were living at -- across from the Tatla Reserve and  5 going to the Noralee school, as far as occupation is  6 concerned?  7 A   He worked in the summers for the Ministry of Forests  8 on Forest Service look-outs.  In the wintertime he  9 worked -- some of the years anyhow -- with my Uncle  10 Barry Grainger with his small sawmill.  11 Q   And did Barry Grainger have a sawmill?  12 A   I think it was his.  Either his or Martin Grainger's,  13 I'm not sure which -- who owned it.  14 Q   Where was that sawmill?  15 A   It was -- they had a small woodlot west of the place  16 they lived on.  17 Q   Did Barry Grainger have any -- your Uncle Barry  18 Grainger have any source -- have a source of income or  19 occupation in those days other than the guiding or the  20 sawmill you are speaking about and the trapping?  21 A  And trapping and he also had cattle.  22 Q   And your Uncle Martin Grainger, what did he do, what  23 was his principal source of income?  24 A   He worked for the International Pacific Salmon  25 Fisheries Commission and he was away a lot of time and  26 then he moved to Takla Lake, Middle River.  27 Q   Is that spelt T-A-K-L-A?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Yes.  Now, I would like to speak about the years when  30 you were attending high school in Burns Lake.  Were  31 there native students attending the high school in  32 Burns Lake?  33 A   Yes, there was.  34 Q   Did you know any of those people?  35 A   Yes.  One of my good friends that I chummed around  36 with while in high school was native.  37 Q   And what was his name?  3 8 A   Simon Brown.  39 Q   Where did he live?  40 A   He lived quite close to where I was boarding, west of  41 Burns Lake.  42 Q   Did you have occasion to visit his home?  43 A   Yes, I did.  44 Q   And how frequently would you visit his home?  45 A   Oh, I would say probably many times or quite a few or  46 several or whatever.  47 Q   Did you know his brother or did he have a brother? 18785  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  He had many brothers.  2 Q   And one of his brothers is well known or famous in the  3 Burns Lake area?  4 A   Yes.  George Brown, which one of the buildings -- I  5 think it's a friendship centre or a native centre --  6 is named after George Brown.  7 Q   Did the Browns live on the reserve at Burns Lake?  8 A   No, they didn't, when I knew them.  9 Q   And when you visited the Brown's home, in which  10 language did they speak to you?  11 A   They spoke to me in English.  12 Q   Well, did you ever learn any Indian or native  13 languages?  14 A   No.  Just an odd word.  15 Q   Did you hear the Browns speaking among themselves in  16 native languages?  17 A  Very rarely.  Whenever I was present they would speak  18 English amongst themselves.  Every once in a while  19 there would be the odd native word spoken.  20 Q   Did the Browns ever advise you of their Indian names?  21 A   No, they did not.  22 Q   What can you -- can you say generally what sort of  23 things you did when you went to visit the Browns?  24 A  Well, mostly when I went to visit was to go and see  25 Simon and then he and I would then take off and go do  26 other things.  We weren't really playing in the house  27 or as such.  Mostly I was going up there to get him to  28 go up town or to go play back in the bush or whatever  2 9              we might be doing.  30 Q   Were there other native people in Burns Lake?  31 A   Yes, there is.  32 Q   In those days when you were going to high school  33 there?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Was there and is there a reserve there?  36 A   Yes, there is.  37 Q   And where is the reserve?  38 A   It's bordering on the Municipality of Burns Lake.  39 Q   Did you know any of the people who lived on the  40 reserve?  41 A   No, I didn't.  42 Q   To your knowledge, did any of the -- to your  43 knowledge, did any of the native students at the high  44 school come from areas outside of Burns Lake?  45 A   Yes, they did.  They came from Babine, Topley, Grassy  46 Plains area, Cheslatta country.  47 Q   What do you mean when you say "Cheslatta country"? 18786  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  Well, in that vicinity.  I'm not sure exactly where  2 they came from.  3 Q   I beg your pardon?  4 A  Within the vicinity of Cheslatta somewhere.  I'm not  5 sure exactly.  6 Q   Yes.  When you say "Cheslatta" are you referring to a  7 geographical location?  8 A   Yes.  Cheslatta Lake.  9 Q   Did you have any temporary jobs in the summer while  10 you were going to high school at Burns Lake?  11 A   Yes.  I worked for the International Pacific Salmon  12 Fisheries Commission.  13 Q   And what type of job did you have with that  14 organization?  15 A  A sockeye enumeration.  16 Q   I take it that that is what it sounds like, fish  17 counting, but what exactly was involved in your job?  18 A  Well, basically we would walk the various streams that  19 the salmon were spawning in, counting them, and while  20 they were -- while they were still alive.  And then  21 when they started to die, we would pitch with a pue  22 (ph) stick or a gaff, pitch the carcases out of the  23 water, and keep track of the males, females.  The  24 females we kept track of if they were a hundred  25 percent spawned out, 50 percent spawned out, or very  26 little spawned out, if they died before spawning.  We  27 would -- some of the streams we would tag the salmon  28 before they went up the stream and then try to recover  29 tags to get an idea of the larger streams.  30 Q   Where did you carry out that job?  31 A   On the Stilacole (ph) River at the east end of  32 Francois Lake, but most of it was on Takla Lake,  33 Middle River, Trombler (ph) Lake, Stewart Lake,  34 Driftwood River, and all streams flowing into areas I  35 mentioned.  36 Q   And did you go up the Driftwood River as far as Bear  37 Lake?  38 A   No, I did not.  I went up as far as the rapids and  39 couldn't go any further.  40 And I also, I think, one year did an enumeration  41 on Nadina River before the spawning channel was  42 completed.  43 Q   We are talking about the -- are we talking about the  44 four years that you were at high school in Burns Lake,  45 before 1970?  46 A   Yes.  What I just mentioned on the Nadina River was  47 the summer just after I graduated in 1970. 18787  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  MR. RUSH  37  38  the witn:  39  mr. mack:  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Now, I would like to ask you some questions about your  Forest Service responsibilities.  You said that you  were -- your responsibilities include forest fire  prevention.  How -- what was entailed in that  responsibility?  Well, one of them was to certify logging operations,  that they had the required fire equipment to possibly  prevent a fire escaping from their logging activities.  Did you fight any fires?  Oh yes, yes.  Lightening strike, natural-caused fires  and man-caused fires.  Did you organize crews to fight fires?  Yes.  Recruited them.  And where were these fires and what did -- where were  these fires that you fought located?  Within the Morice Forest District.  And did native people assist in those forest fire  activity -- fighting activities?  Yes, they did.  You talked about supervising or being involved with  silviculture and reforestation.  What parts of the  district did that take place?  Pretty well all parts of the district where logging  was taking place, but most of it was south of Highway  16 within the forest district.  Would you tell his lordship generally where the forest  district is?  Point it out on the map you mean?  Perhaps can you explain it to his lordship what areas  it includes?  Well, it includes the town of Houston, of course, it  extends north to Babine and, of course, towards  Natowite Lake area.  Which lake?  Natowite and Hautete Lake.  I'm sorry, I'm missing those.  Can you speak up,  please.  3S:      Natowite   Lake.  >JZIE:  Can you spell that, please?  No.  I would have to look at the map.  Where is that lake?  North of Babine Lake.  Fine.  Carry on, please?  And Hautete Lake.  How do you spell that, please?  I would have to look at the map. 187?  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Fine.  2 A  And then it extended from Highway 16 at Houston south  3 to Whitesail Lake, Ootsa Lake, east towards -- well,  4 part ways down Francois Lake, about 15 miles down  5 Francois Lake is the boundary line, and west to the  6 Coast Range divide -- divide on the Coast Range.  7 Q   Is that west of Morice Lake?  8 A   That's correct.  9 Q   And what do -- you mentioned timber cruising.  What do  10 you have to do in that job?  11 A   Like explain what -- how you cruise?  12 Q   Yes.  Just generally.  13 THE COURT:  I don't think I need to know how to cruise timber,  14 Mr. Mackenzie.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  16 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie, every judge has probably heard it  17 eight or nine times in one case or another.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm certain that your lordship has a familiarity  19 with these matters, but it's conceivable that other  20 persons reading this transcript or considering the  21 matter --  22 THE COURT:  Well, I can tell you that they are not going to read  23 very much of it, if we are talking in such general  24 terms.  Surely that's not what you called the witness  25 for.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q   Where did you carry out your timber cruising  28 activities, Mr. Tourond?  29 A  Most of it was around the Houston area and south to  30 Francois Lake.  There was the odd occasion where I  31 would go north of the Highway 16.  32 Q   And did that -- did those responsibilities entail  33 actually walking on the ground in those areas?  34 A   That's correct.  35 Q   Through the forest?  36 A   That's correct.  37 Q   Checking the characteristics of trees in the area?  38 A   That's correct.  39 Q   And you mentioned grazing permits.  What were your  40 duties relating to grazing permits?  41 A  Well, I usually helped the individual in the office  42 that actually looks after the grazing permits, to  43 liaison between them and the -- some of the ranchers  44 who I knew personally, most of my life.  And also I  45 knew the areas that the permits were covering and  46 helped in that way to fill in the historic detail to  47 the individual who looks after the grazing permits for 18789  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 the Ministry of Forests in the Houston office.  2 Q   And what is a grazing permit?  3 A   It's a permit to graze cattle in this situation on a  4 given area.  Gives them the right to graze so many  5 cattle per animal unit a month concept.  6 Q   And where are these cattle grazed?  7 A   The main area that I was dealing with was along the  8 north shore of Poplar Lake or Tagetochlain.  9 Q   And is that land privately owned?  10 A   No, it isn't.  11 Q   Who owns that land?  12 A   The Crown.  13 Q   And did you -- you say you knew the ranchers.  Are  14 there ranchers in that area around Francois Lake?  15 A  Around Francois Lake but not Poplar Lake.  16 Q   I understand that.  Are there any native people  17 ranching in the Francois Lake area to your knowledge?  18 A   Not to my knowledge.  19 Q   Did you have occasion to inspect the areas subject to  20 the grazing permits near Poplar Lake?  21 A   I have, yes.  22 Q   You've travelled over that area?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Would you tell -- you said that you travelled by  25 vehicle in the discharge of your duties.  Would you  26 describe for his lordship the roads that you travelled  27 on in the discharge of your duties in that area?  28 A   I travelled on the Morice-Owen Road, the road to  29 Morice Lake, and all branch roads off of that main  30 trunk road to the various logging blocks.  The road to  31 Tahtsa Lake and all related artery roads or branch  32 roads off of that road, and of course to Francois  33 Lake.  The Wistaria public road towards Wistaria, and  34 the many roads in the Andrew Bay country that was put  35 in by the logging company.  36 Q   Did you have occasion to travel on any mining roads?  37 A   Yes.  Some of the mining roads which were off of the  38 Tahtsa Road, I travelled on them to some of the mining  39 activity, exploration activity.  4 0 Q   And what time of year did you conduct your vehicle  41 patrols, if I can call them, or travels, in that area  42 west and southwest of Francois Lake?  43 A   From the time the road was passable in the spring  44 after the snow melted, to the time in the fall when  45 the road was impassable due to snow.  And many of the  46 roads were open in the winter too.  47 Q   And did you travel in the area in the wintertime? 18790  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  Pretty well all the roads that were open due to  2 logging activities, I travelled them -- pretty well  3 all of them during the winter.  4 Q   And did you travel by air over the area?  5 A   Yes, I have.  6 Q   And what occasions would you do that?  7 A   To view new areas for timber harvesting during the  8 preliminary applications submitted by the logging  9 companies or individuals, where you couldn't drive to  10 these areas to view them.  Also flew into various  11 mining exploration sites, especially if it was  12 involving timber removal for trenching or building a  13 mining camp or such as.  14 Q   And how did you fly, what sort of aircraft were you  15 using?  16 A   By rotor wing or helicopter.  17 Q   Now, we are talking about in the discharge of your  18 Forest Service responsibilities?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Yes.  When you were travelling by air in the area, did  21 you -- would you be observing the ground for any  22 reason?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Why would you be doing that?  25 A   I would be observing the ground, I was looking at  26 mature timber, always keeping an eye open for bug  27 infestation out-breaks, and of course in the  28 summertime, if you are travelling too, you are looking  29 for -- you know, always have a watchfull eye for smoke  30 that shouldn't be there, looking at various areas of  31 swamp systems, moose habitat, fish habitat.  32 Q   And did you fly over the area during the wintertime?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And what, if anything, could be observed on the ground  35 with respect to various kinds of vehicle tracks?  36 A   Yes.  You can observe snowmobile tracks on lakes and  37 open areas and snowshoe tracks, if there is any, if  38 they are fairly fresh.  39 Q   You talked about visiting mining operations.  Can you  40 tell his lordship which mining operations you visited?  41 A   I visited mining operations in Troitsa Mountain Range  42 country, the Sibola Mountains, Sweeney Mountains,  43 along Morice Lake area, Tableland Mountain, and Ahtna  44 Lake area, or mountains around that area, that lake.  45 Q   And are all those areas west of Francois Lake?  46 A   That's correct.  47 Q   Now, can you recall when you went to Sweeney Mountain? 18791  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   No, I can't recall the exact year.  2 Q   Can you remember what you saw when you went there?  3 A   It related to the mining duties.  4 Q   Yes?  5 A   Basically, small drilling exploration, they would have  6 a small drill.  7 Q   And can you recall going to the Troitsa Lake area?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Troitsa Mountain?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Do you recall what year that was?  12 A   No, I can't.  It was probably eight, nine years ago,  13 somewhere in there, nine, ten years ago.  14 Q   Can you recall what you saw when you went to that  15 location?  16 A   Similar work, small drill operation.  17 Q   And is it fair to say that you made similar  18 observations at the other mining operations you  19 visited that you've mentioned?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Did you see any native people at those mining  22 operation sites?  23 A   I don't recall seeing any.  24 Q   Did you see people at the mining operation sites?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Now, when you were travelling in the area southwest of  27 Francois Lake, were you concerned about other uses of  28 the area besides logging?  29 A   Yes.  We always tried to keep track of various  30 tourists in the area, where they were camping, any  31 other mining operations that we didn't know about  32 through notification from the Ministry of Mines.  33 Basically, any activity that might be going on, just  34 in case we had to impose a forest closure due to high  35 fire hazard, it was nice to know where some of the  36 people or locations were that we might have to go to  37 and ask them to leave until the hazard changed.  38 Q   How did you find out about other people being in the  39 area?  40 A   Through personal observation while touring the area by  41 vehicle and also by stopping at mainly the Nadina Lake  42 Lodge and talking to the lodge owner there on -- about  43 people in the area.  44 Q   And did you visit any forest recreation sites?  45 A   Yes.  Pretty well all the forest recreation sites.  46 Q   Did you visit other campsites besides forest  47 recreation sites? 18792  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  There is quite a few non-designated campsites  2 that people use.  3 Q   And did you have occasion -- were you -- did you see  4 or observe people fishing or -- during these patrols?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Have you travelled in the area during trapping season?  7 A   Some of the areas during trapping season, yes.  8 Q   And when is the trapping season?  9 A   Starts in -- I think it's November through till spring  10 or early summer with various seasons -- there is  11 various seasons with various animals.  12 Q   And whom have you seen trapping in areas west of  13 Francois Lake?  14 A   I seen a native fellow at Poplar Lake, I seen John  15 Mould.  16 Q   Yes?  17 A   James Macallian, Gary Lloyd, and of course Barry  18 Grainger when he was alive.  And I know of others that  19 were trapping out there, but I didn't personally see  20 them.  21 Q   Is James Macallian a non-native person?  22 A   That's correct.  23 THE COURT:  How do you spell his name?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q   My lord, phonetically.  Perhaps, Mr. Tourond, do you  26 know how to spell Mr. Macallian's name?  27 A   I think it's M-A-C-A-L-L-I-N-A — or I-A-N, Macallian.  28 I'm not sure.  29 Q   And what occasions did you see Mr. Macallian trapping,  30 or what years?  31 A   I think it was two years, two to three years ago.  32 Q   Have you seen him since then?  33 A   Trapping that is?  34 Q   Yes?  35 A   No, I didn't see him last winter.  I wasn't sure where  36 he was trapping last winter.  37 Q   And who is John Mould?  38 A   John Mould is a neighbour of mine who lives about two  39 miles up the Nadina River from the west end of  40 Francois Lake.  41 Q   And where have you seen him trapping?  42 A   On his trapline.  43 Q   Where is his trapline?  44 A   His trapline is at the west end of Francois Lake,  45 takes in part of the Nadina valley, it goes up to  46 Tsichgass -- towards Tsichgass Lake and up to the  47 height of land on Shelford Hills. 18793  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Did Barry Grainger used to lease that line?  Yes, he did.  Have you seen Barry Grainger trapping on that line?  Yes.  Have you seen Roy Morris trapping on that line?  No.  Do you know Roy Morris?  Yes.  How long have you known him?  Oh, I've known him probably most -- well, since I was  probably 10, 12 years old, I guess.  I've known of  him.  MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, is this a convenient time?  THE COURT:  Yes.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  short recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 P.M.)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 3:20 P.M.)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Mr. Tourond, we were speaking about the trappers you  had seen in your travels west of Francois Lake, and  the last one you mentioned was Gary Lloyd.  Who was  he?  A   Gary Lloyd is a white person who lives in Smithers.  Q   Apart from Poplar Lake, have you seen any native  people trapping in the area in which you have  travelled west of Francois Lake?  A   Yes.  I've seen native people trapping along Owen  Creek, between Owen Lake and Morice River.  Q   Apart from Poplar Lake and the Owen Creek area, have  you seen any native people trapping west of Francois  Lake?  A   No, I have not.  Q   In your travels west of Francois Lake, have you seen  any people hunting?  A   Yes, I've seen people hunting.  Q   And apart from your guiding activities, have you seen  people hunting?  A   Yes.  Q   And have you seen non-native people hunting?  A   During hunting season?  Q   Yes?  A   No, I don't recall seeing native people hunting in the 18794  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 hunting season.  2 Q   Have you seen non-native people hunting?  3 A   Yes.  Lots of non-native people hunting.  4 Q   Okay.  And under what -- under what conditions would  5 you have occasion to see non-native people hunting,  6 apart from your guiding activities?  7 A  Well, during the course of my forestry related duties,  8 travelling around you would see various hunters' camps  9 with moose meat or the moose carcase hanging beside  10 their camp or within their camp, and hunters driving  11 along the road fairly slowly, obviously -- where it's  12 obvious to me that they were looking for animals.  13 They had guns in their vehicle, you could see them in  14 the gun rack.  And on various occasions, you maybe see  15 an odd hunter on the road walking with a rifle in his  16 hand.  17 Q   And have you seen any people hunting in the wintertime  18 west of Francois Lake?  19 A   Yes, I have.  20 Q   And were those people non-native people or native  21 people?  22 A   On one occasion I have seen a native person hunting,  23 the other kills I am not sure -- positively sure if  24 they were native kills or non-native kills.  25 Q   Now, can you recall the occasion on which you saw  26 non-native people hunting in the winter?  27 A   I witnessed two non-native people had shot -- I didn't  28 see them actually shoot the cow moose -- but they were  2 9 there removing the insides of the animal when I came  30 upon them.  I heard the shot from my place and I went  31 to investigate.  32 Q   Now you said you saw two non-native people?  33 A   Or natives, sorry, native people.  34 Q   So the observation you just made related to native  35 people?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And when did that occur?  38 A   Three, four years ago.  Three years ago, I think.  39 Q   Sorry.  Did you finish?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   What time of the year?  42 A   I would say it was in February, latter part of  43 February.  44 Q   Could you tell his lordship what you saw and what  45 happened?  46 A  Well, I saw the two native people removing the insides  47 of a cow moose and I went up to have a look at it 18795  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 while they were in the process.  They assured me that  2 they had a sustenance permit to carry this out.  3 Q   All right.  And how did you know it was a cow moose?  4 A   Just by the body and the internal organs.  5 Q   Was that cow moose pregnant?  6 A   Yes, she was.  7 Q   And what were the native people taking from the inside  8 of the cow moose?  9 A   The sack that holds the foetus was removed from the  10 insides of the animal and set aside.  11 Q   And what did you say to those native people?  12 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie, I don't understand what this is going  13 to lead to.  He might have said a number of different  14 things to those people.  Does any of it matter?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, it does.  Well, my submission, my lord, it  16 does matter, because it's relevant to the evidence  17 that's been called in this case, being the way the  18 plaintiffs conduct their hunting practices and  19 sustenance permits and conservation, the whole ethic  20 that's been canvassed in very great detail, in my  21 respectful submission, in this case.  22 THE COURT:  Well, on what basis is it admissible?  Does it  23 assume that these two people are plaintiffs?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, it's not assumed, my lord.  I will lead that  25 from the witness, that evidence from the witness.  2 6 THE COURT:  All right.  27 MR. RUSH:  Well, I should tell you, my lord, that I think that  28 this evidence is objectionable.  I think the  29 conversation is objectionable and I think I don't --  30 I've never heard of this, it wasn't in the summary --  31 mind you, very little was in the summary -- but I  32 think it's an objectionable form of hearsay.  And I  33 mean I don't, as you say, my lord, know why is this  34 related to the plaintiffs?  35 THE COURT:  Well, if you can -- if the conversation is something  36 that makes it admissible, I suppose you are entitled  37 to do so.  At the moment, it seems to me that these  38 two persons, who have been described as natives, may  39 have come from Vancouver Island, for example, and  40 unless the evidence is brought home to the plaintiffs,  41 it's wholly inadmissible, is it not?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry, my lord, if they are not plaintiffs,  43 it's not admissible.  44 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Except his observations of what happened, my  46 lord, which clearly is.  47 THE COURT:  If they are not plaintiffs, it doesn't matter what 18796  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 happened, does it?  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, it's —  3 THE COURT:  If three gentlemen from Nova Scotia came out and  4 killed a moose, whether they were white, native or  5 anything else, wouldn't make any difference, would it?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, that would depend on what they  7 said, of course, but --  8 THE COURT:  All right.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  And the question of whether it was — whether  10 they did it with permission and without permission is  11 clearly relevant.  It's clearly on a territory that's  12 claimed in this lawsuit.  13 THE COURT:  Well, I'll allow you to go ahead with some  14 hesitancy, I think they say in the headnotes.  15 MR. RUSH:  My lord, my objection is it's hearsay evidence and  16 unless this witness knows the people then I would  17 object to any of the conversation.  18 THE COURT:  Well, I'll hold a voir dire.  You can lead the  19 evidence of the conversation and see if it has any  20 possible relevance or admissibility.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q   Do you know where those natives came from?  23 A   I did not know at the time where they came from but I  24 did know after.  25 Q   How did you learn where they came from after that  26 date?  27 A   I reported it to the conservation officers in Burns  28 Lake and at a later date they told me that they were  2 9 two —  30 Q   That's fine.  You don't have to say anything further  31 on that.  Thank you.  32 You have seen a lot -- I'm sorry, have you seen  33 non-native people with freshly killed moose,  34 non-native people?  35 A   In the wintertime you mean?  36 Q   No.  In your experience during the hunting season?  37 A   Oh yes.  38 Q   And have you ever seen a pregnant moose having been  39 killed during the hunting season?  40 A   No, I haven't -- yes.  I should rephrase that.  Yes.  41 In the earlier years when it was permissible to shoot  42 cow moose during the hunting season and in the latter  43 part of the hunting season, in November, the cow moose  44 was pregnant.  45 Q   Have you ever seen any white people in the situation  46 that you observed the native people during the  47 occasion you described? 18797  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I have not.  2 Q   And what would be the difference between -- from your  3 observation between what you observed on that occasion  4 and on the occasions that you observed white people  5 having killed moose?  6 A  Well, the white people who have killed moose, of  7 course, remove the insides and some do and some don't  8 remove the heart and the liver of the animal.  But  9 I've never seen any of them remove the area that I was  10 talking about previously.  11 Q   You are speaking about the foetus?  12 A   That's correct.  13 Q   Have you seen any white people fishing in the area  14 west of Francois Lake?  15 A   Yes, I have.  16 Q   How many people have you seen, or do you see that  17 regularly?  18 A   Yes, I see that on a regular basis, especially during  19 the height of the tourist season in the summertime.  20 Q   Have you seen native people fishing in the area of --  21 west of Francois Lake?  22 A   No, I don't recall seeing native people.  23 Q   Have you seen many native people during your travels  24 in the Morice district other than the observations  2 5 you've made?  26 A   No, I have not.  27 Q   Have you seen native people in Houston?  2 8 A   Yes, I have.  29 Q   Where else have you seen native people within the land  30 claims area?  31 A   Oh, I've seen a lot of native people in Burns Lake,  32 some in Topley, Houston, Smithers, Hazelton, Kitwanga,  33 Fort Babine, Babine.  34 Q   Yes, you are outside the land claim area now.  35 A   Oh.  Sorry.  36 Q   I want to ask you about some of the areas to which  37 you've travelled in the Morice district and in the  38 area specifically west of Francois Lake.  You visited  39 Tahtsa Lake?  4 0 A   I have.  41 Q   Have you visited it several times?  42 A  Many times.  43 Q   Have you visited Sweeney Lake?  44 A  Many times.  45 Q   Did you visit Twinkle Lake?  4 6 A  Many times.  47 Q   And did you visit Nadina Lake? 18798  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  THE COURT  25  MR. macke:  26  THE COURT  27  MR. macke:  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Many times.  And you visited Shelford Lake?  Yes.  I was at Shelford Lake a few times.  And you have visited Hill-Tout Lake?  A few times.  You've visited Duel Lakes?  A few times.  And you have visited Poplar Lake?  Many times.  And you have visited Witter Lake?  A few times.  And you have visited Bill Nye Lake?  A few times.  And you have visited Duck Lake?  Many times.  And you have visited Jones Lake?  Quite a few times.  You have visited Elbow Lake?  Quite a few times.  You've visited Ross Lake?  A few times.  You have visited Blue Lake?  Quite a few times.  :  Sorry?  JZIE:  Blue.  :  G-L-U-E?  JZIE:  Sorry, my lord, B-L-U-E.  Blue as in gravel.  Blue as  in feeling blue.  Mr. Willms mentioned that.  Co-op Lake you visited?  Yes, I have.  You have visited Long Lake?  Yes, many times.  You have visited Rainbow Lake?  Yes, many times.  And of course you have often visited Francois Lake?  Yes.  You have visited Tsichgass Lake?  Many times.  You have visited Owen Lake?  Many times.  You have visited Frypan Lake?  Quite a few times.  You have visited Lamprey Lake?  Quite a few times.  You have visited Collins Lake?  Quite a few times. 18799  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q You have visited McBride Lake?  2 A Quite a few times.  3 Q You have visited Morice Lake?  4 A Quite a few times.  5 Q You have visited Ahtna Lake?  6 A A few times.  7 Q You have visited Anzac Lake?  8 A Yes.  Once.  9 Q Have you flown over Anzac Lake?  10 A A few times.  11 Q You have visited Stepp Lake?  12 A Yes.  Once.  13 Q And have you flown over Stepp Lake?  14 A A few times.  15 Q You have visited Kidprice Lake?  16 A Few times.  17 Q You've visited Nanika Lake?  18 A Few times.  19 Q Did you see native people at any of these lakes except  20 Francois Lake and Poplar Lake and Owen Lake?  21 A I don't recall seeing native people other than the  22 ones you've mentioned.  23 Q Have you seen native people engaged in berry picking  24 in the area west of Francois Lake?  25 A No, I don't recall seeing any.  26 Q In the course of your duties with the Forest Service,  27 you were able to observe the extent of logging  28 operations in the area west of Francois Lake?  29 A Yes.  30 Q And how far have the logging operations advanced to  31 date?  32 A Right from the west end of Francois Lake to Nadina  33 Lake and beyond to -- close to Newcombe Lake.  34 Q Now, you are familiar with Forest Service look-outs in  35 that area?  3 6 A Yes, I am.  37 Q Have you visited the Nanika look-out?  38 A Yes.  39 Q And that's on Nanika Mountain?  40 A That's right.  41 Q You have visited the Nadina look-out?  42 A That's right.  43 Q That's at Nadina Lake?  44 A That's right.  45 Q You actually lived at Nadina Lake look-out as well,  4 6 didn't you?  47 A That's correct. 18800  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q Have you visited the Owen look-out?  2 A Yes.  3 Q Where is that?  4 A That is on a small hill just above the confluence of  5 Owen Creek into Morice River.  6 Q Have you visited the Parrott look-out?  7 A Yes.  And also lived there.  8 Q That's near your home?  9 A That's correct.  10 Q Is there a Forest Service cabin at McBride Lake?  11 A Yes.  12 Q Have you visited a guide-outfitting operation in the  13 areas west and southwest of Francois Lake?  14 A I have visited Joe Gourdeau's guiding operation.  15 Q And where is that?  16 A Based at the Nadina Lake Lodge on Nadina Lake.  17 Q Have you visited any other guide-outfitting operation?  18 A I've been to Allan Blackwell's operations on Ootsa  19 Lake, his base camp operation only.  20 Q Have you visited any other guide-outfitting  21 operations?  22 A No, I haven't.  Oh, excuse me, Cowan's operation.  23 Q Where is that?  24 A Actually, it's north and east of Francois Lake, his  25 base camp operation.  26 Q Now, you told his lordship that you started to assist  27 your mother in her guiding business in 1984.  Have you  28 been out guiding each year since then?  2 9 A Yes, I have.  30 Q And do you conduct -- have you been guiding in the  31 Barbara Peden's guiding territory?  32 A I have.  33 Q And what time of year is that that you go out?  34 A During the hunting season.  35 Q And when is that?  36 A Well, usually starting around the first of September  37 when mountain goat opens, through to the moose-hunting  38 season.  39 Q And did you go into the guiding territory for any  40 reason prior to the -- other than your Forest Service  41 duties, prior to the hunting season?  42 A We have in areas that are road accessible to cut a few  43 trails into various locations that are good hunting.  44 THE COURT:  Sorry, what year did you say you started working as  45 a guide?  46 THE WITNESS:  With Mrs. Peden?  4 7    THE COURT:  Yes? 18801  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE WITNESS:  1984.  2 THE COURT:  '84, yes.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 Q   Now, have you driven past the reserve at Park Lake?  5 A  Well, I've driven through the reserve at Park Lake,  6 because the road passes through the reserve.  7 Q   Which road is that?  8 A   It's the old Tahtsa Road, the original old Tahtsa  9 Road.  10 Q   And how frequently would you go through that reserve?  11 A   Fairly frequently while I was working with the Forest  12 Service, and frequently in the fall when we pass  13 through to hunt on the other side of the reserve, both  14 personally and in the business.  15 Q   Are you -- do you hunt personally as well as guiding  16 in your guiding business?  17 A   That's correct.  18 Q   And what sort of animals do you hunt?  19 A  Well, I hunt moose, deer and mountain goat, if I'm  20 lucky enough to get a limited entry permit.  21 Q   What is a "limited entry permit"?  22 A  Well, most of the area that we hunt in is covered by  23 the limited entry permits, which is a draw system  24 through the Ministry of the Environment.  25 Q   And how does that operation work, generally?  26 A  We have to buy an application card and fill it in and  27 send it down to Victoria or Vancouver here, and it is  28 a computerized draw, and much like a lottery, and then  29 we are notified if we are successful at being drawn or  30 not.  31 Q   Speaking about the Park Lake Reserve, have you known  32 anyone who lived on that reserve?  33 A   Yes, I have.  34 Q   And who was that?  35 A   Stu Dawson.  36 Q   And is he a white person or a native person?  37 A   He is a white person.  38 Q   And what were the circumstances -- or what did you  39 observe relating to Mr. Dawson living on the reserve?  40 A   He built a home on the Park Lake Reserve and lived  41 there for two to three years, somewhere around there.  42 Q   Did he have a family?  43 A   Yes, he did.  44 Q   Did you know Mr. Dawson personally?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Did you ever visit him?  47 A   Yes. 18802  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Now, another incident during your Forest Service  2 duties, did you have occasion to investigate some  3 cases of arson in the area west of Francois Lake while  4 you were with the Forest Service?  5 A   Yes.  On Poplar Lake when there was some cabins burnt  6 down, being burnt down.  7 Q   Would you tell his lordship how you came to be  8 involved and what you did?  9 A  Well, I was on Friday stand-by that particular time, I  10 got a call from the office saying that there was a  11 smoke report at Poplar Lake, and I proceeded to  12 investigate by vehicle.  When I arrived at the scene  13 the cabin had been -- was completely burnt to the  14 ground.  I followed the fresh tire tracks as far as I  15 could follow them and lost them, and I never did at  16 that time catch up to the individual who obviously  17 must have done it.  18 Q   What year was that?  19 A   Four, five years ago, somewhere around there.  20 Q   And what happened, related to this incident, after  21 that?  22 A  Well, it was either a few days after that or the  23 following -- I think it was a weekend that this  24 happened -- the following weekend, I think, I am not  25 sure of the time frame in between, but there was  26 another cabin on the opposite shore of Poplar Lake  27 that was being burnt down.  The Forest Service  28 look-out reported the smoke to the office, they  29 sent --  30 Q   Excuse me, were you involved in that in any way?  31 A   I was involved in it to the extent that actually I  32 went out via vehicle again but I was not in the  33 helicopter that went.  34 Q   Well, what did you observe?  35 A  Well, I observed not visually, but through the radio  36 communications that the helicopter came upon the  37 individuals just leaving the cabin that was burning,  38 and the Forest Service officer in the helicopter had  39 the helicopter land on the exit route from the cabin  4 0 and on the road, and then they knew who the individual  41 was that was driving the vehicle.  42 Q   And did you come to participate personally in any of  43 the subsequent matters, or did you arrive on the  44 scene?  45 A   No, not after I heard that they had, you know, found  46 out who the individual was.  And of course afterwards  47 I had to write up a report on what I had seen and 18803  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 heard -- or seen and heard in the first and second  2 incident because it was taken to court.  3 Q   Were you present at the trial?  4 A   No, I was not.  5 Q   Now during the years that you assisted your mother in  6 the guiding business, which parts of the guiding  7 territory did you guide in?  8 A   Pretty well all of the guiding territory.  9 Q   Can you tell his lordship where you have been in the  10 territory?  11 A  Well, from the areas around the west end of Francois  12 Lake up the Nadina valley which is within the  13 guiding -- or the part that is within the guiding  14 territory, Duck Lake, Poplar Lake, Bittern, Bill Nye  15 Lakes, south of McBride Lake, Morice Lake, Ahtna Lake,  16 Nanika Lake, Kidprice Lake and areas around.  17 Q   I am going to be referring you to the names of  18 plaintiffs and chiefs in this lawsuit who claim  19 territory in this area west of Francois Lake, and the  20 first is at Ahtna Lake, and this is Exhibit 669,  21 section A.  Do you know Lucy Namox?  22 A   No, I do not.  23 Q   Do you know Seymour Morris?  24 A   No, I do not.  2 5 Q   Do you know Jimmy Thomas?  2 6 A   I do not.  27 Q   Do you know Stanley Morris?  2 8 A   I do not.  29 Q   And the next is Morice Lake and McBride Lake, Exhibit  30 664 section B.  Do you know -- well, you do know Roy  31 Morris, don't you?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And has Roy Morris ever told you that you were on his  34 property?  35 A   No, he did not.  36 Q   Did he, Roy Morris, ever advise you that you required  37 his permission to travel or conduct the guiding  38 business on his territory?  39 A   He did not.  4 0 Q   Did you know Topley Matthew Sam?  41 A   No, I don't.  42 Q   Do you know Gordon Hall?  43 A   I've heard of him but I do not know him.  44 Q   Refer to the Bill Nye Lake and Topley Lake, Exhibit  45 307.  Do you know Sarah Layton?  4 6 A   I do not.  47 Q   Did you know Christine Holland? 18804  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A I do not.  2 Q Referring to Poplar Mountain and Nadina Mountain.  Do  3 you know Alfred Joseph?  4 A Never heard of him.  5 Q Referring to the territories in the vicinity of  6 Francois Lake at Colley Mount, the Parrott Creek  7 territory, Exhibit 670 section B.  Do you know Leonard  8 George?  9 A I've heard of him, I don't know him.  10 Q Did you know Charlie Pist'aii, P-I-S-T-'-A-I-I?  11 A Never heard of him.  12 Q And do you -- did you know Jimmy Andrew?  13 A Well, I've seen him, but I don't think that I would  14 recognize him if he was in this room or whatever.  15 Q I think he has passed away.  16 A Yeah.  17 Q Did you know him before he passed away?  18 A I've seen him but I don't know him.  19 Q That's referring to the Nadina Lake area, Exhibit 678  20 section A, and that includes Andrews Bay.  21 Referring to Tahtsa Lake, Troitsa Lake area,  22 Exhibit 666 section A.  Do you know -- or I beg your  23 pardon, did you know Chief Louie?  24 A No.  25 Q Did you know Baptiste Louie?  26 A I did not.  27 Q Did you know Moses David?  28 A I've seen him.  29 Q Did you ever speak to him?  30 A Not that I recall.  31 Q Do you know Harvey Naziel?  32 A Never heard of him.  33 Q Referring to Grassy Plains, Tschesinkut Lake, this is  34 the Honcaagh Lake area, Exhibit 673 section A.  Did  35 you know Keom Morris?  36 A I've heard of him.  37 THE COURT:  What was the first name?  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  39 Q Keom, K-E-O-M.  40 Referring to the Tatalrose and Isaac Lake area,  41 Exhibit 670 section A.  Did you know Johnny Mack?  42 A No.  43 Q Do you know Patrick Pierre?  44 A No.  45 Q Do you know Florence Hall?  4 6 A No.  47 Q Do you know Ron Michell? 18805  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   No.  2 Q   Do you know Henry Alfred?  3 A   No.  4 Q   Do you know John Namox?  5 A   Could you repeat that, please?  6 Q   Do you know -- beg your pardon, did you know John  7 Namox?  8 A   No.  9 Q   Did you know Pat Namox?  10 A   No.  11 Q   Do you know Dan Michell?  12 A   No.  13 Q   You are familiar with the forest recreation sites in  14 the area west of Francois Lake?  15 A   Yes.  Very familiar.  16 Q   Now, going down the Owen Lake Road, can you tell his  17 lordship where the forest recreation sites are  18 starting at the Owen Creek and Owen Lake?  19 A   Showing it on the map or just --  20 Q   Perhaps if you could just describe to his lordship?  21 A  Well, there is a large recreational campsite on the  22 northwest end of Owen Lake.  Starting down the Tahtsa  23 Road there is a recreational site east of Poplar Lake  24 right on the back of Nadina River.  There is a  25 recreational site on Poplar Lake near where the creek  26 leaves the lake.  There is a recreational site on the  27 Nadina River near Nadina Lake.  There is also a  28 recreational site on Nadina Lake itself.  There is a  29 recreational site on Twinkle Lake which is southwest  30 of Nadina Lake towards Tahtsa Lake.  And there is two  31 recreational sites on Sweeney Lake and one site on  32 Tahtsa Lake where the road ends.  33 Q   Now, did you know -- did you learn the names of any  34 native houses or clans during your time in the  35 Francois Lake area?  36 A   No, I did not.  37 Q   Have you ever learned the names of houses or clans?  38 A   No.  I've just heard of them through the court here.  39 Q   When did you first hear of that?  40 A   Just in the last year or so, or six months or  41 something.  42 Q   And prior to this court case were you aware of the  43 territories of the house, or clan boundaries for the  44 native people?  45 A   Yes.  I saw a map in the Forest Service office with  4 6 some -- with names on it.  47 Q   And when was that? 18806  J.P. TOUROND (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  About a year ago.  2 Q   From where did that information come?  3 A   I guess from the native people.  I don't know, I just  4 saw the map.  5 Q   Were you asked to prepare Forest Service information  6 with respect to that map?  7 A   Yes, I was.  8 Q   And was that a request related to this lawsuit?  9 A   Yes, it was.  10 Q   And did that request come from my office?  11 A   I think so.  12 Q   And did that map come from my office?  13 A   That I'm not sure.  14 THE COURT:  Are you nearly finished, Mr. Mackenzie?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I will be a little while on  16 Monday morning.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  You are not within three or four minutes  18 of finishing?  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  2 0 THE COURT:  All right.  I think we will adjourn until ten  21 o'clock Monday morning.  I wish you all a very  22 pleasant weekend.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  24 ten o'clock Monday.  25  2 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 P.M.)  27  28 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  29 a true and accurate transcript of the  30 proceedings herein transcribed to the  31 best of my skill and ability.  32  33  34  35  36 Toni Kerekes,  37 O.R., R.P.R.  38 United Reporting Service Ltd.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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