Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Richard Benson] British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 24, 1987

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 1  1 'Ksan Village,  2 Hazelton, B.C.  3 November 24, 1987.  4  5 RICHARD BENSON, Affirmed:  6  7 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH:  8 Q   Well, Mr. Benson, this is the beginning of your  9 commission.  The witness is Mr. Richard Benson on  10 behalf of the plaintiffs.  My name is Stuart Rush  11 acting for the plaintiffs.  And if I may, I'll  12 introduce Mr. Jeff Plant who is counsel on behalf of  13 the Provincial Crown, and on behalf of the Federal  14 Attorney General of Canada is Mr. James Macaulay and  15 with him, Mr. Murray Wolf.  And as well today is Fern  16 Stevens who will be assisting with the words, and  17 Alice Sampson who, in case we need some translation  18 for Richard, will assist us with the translation.  And  19 Laara Yardley is doing the court reporting today.  20  21 The witness has been affirmed to tell the truth  22 and we can start now to begin this commission, Mr.  23 Benson, and I'll ask a number of questions of you.  If  24 you have any difficulty hearing me, you just say so  25 and as well if there is any difficulty that you have  26 in understanding what I say or if you need to speak in  27 Gitksan, Alice is here to help us.  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   All right.  Now, your full name name is Richard  30 Benson?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And I understand that your Gitksan name is Kla'aayuu?  33 A   Yes.  That's right.  34 Q   And you are a chief in the House of Luus?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And Luus is in the Clan of Lax Gibuu or Wolf?  37 A   Gibuu.  38 Q   Gibuu.  And that's the Wolf Clan?  39 A   Yes.  That's true.  40 Q   Okay.  And you're from the Village of Kuldo?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And I understand that the House of Gyolugyet, the  43 House of Luus and Wii elaast, they are all from Kuldo?  44 A   Yes, that's right.  45 Q   And that these Houses are closely related?  46 A   Yes.  Correct.  47 Q   Now, Richard, you were born in 1909? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Yes.  And I understand that you were registered -- your  birth was registered in 1940?  Correct.  And that there was a national registration then, was  there?  Yes.  During the war, yes.  And that's when your birth was registered?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  And you were born at Mezziadan Lake?  Correct.  And you were raised as a boy in Mezziadan Lake?  Yes.  That's right.  You spent some of your time in Kitwancool, is that  right?  Yes.  Yes.  Okay.  And you also spent some time in Stewart?  Yes.  That's right.  And I -- you've told me that when you were born your  family was travelling?  Yes.  Correct.  Where was your family going?  They going into Stewart for Christmas.  And on the way your mother gave birth to you on  December 20?  Yes.  That's right.  And you told me that you eventually made it into  Stewart, did you?  Yes.  It was about a week later?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, your mother's name, her English name was  Janet May?  Yes.  And her -- her Gitksan name was An hlo'o?  Yes.  Is that right?  Have I pronounced it right?  Correct, yes.  Now, you told me that your mother was born in 1886?  Yes.  Okay.  And she passed on in 1954?  Correct.  Okay.  And that your mother lived partly in Mezziadan  Lake?  Yes.  And partly in Stewart?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Okay.  And your mother was also from the House of  Luus, too?  Correct.  And she was also a Lax Gibuu?  Yes.  Now, your mother's mother you told me died in child  birth with your mother, is that right?  Yes.  That's right.  And that was on the day of your -- of your mother's  birth?  Yes.  And what happened then with your mother?  Who raised  your mother?  That was Mary Anne -- Mary Anne Jack's mother.  And —  I don't -- that old woman's name was Gadiilo'o.  That was Mary Anne Jack's mother's name?  Yes.  Okay.  And was Mary Anne Jack born around the same  time as your mother?  Yes.  And you told me that Mary Anne and your mother were  both breast fed by your -- by Mary Anne's mother?  Yes.  That's how they survive.  All right.  And where was your -- where was your  mother's mother or your grandmother at the time that  she died?  Where did this happen?  When my mother's mother died up in the mountain that's  where she is buried and to get my mother as a baby --  some kind of a gut of some animal so to feed that baby  so she can get down to where Mary Anne's mother is.  All right.  Speak slowly Richard so the court reporter  can understand what you are saying.  Yes.  Okay.  The mountain that you talked about where your  grandmother passed on, was that close to Kuldo?  Yes.  It's close.  Now, your mother was related to Albert -- to Abel  Tait?  Yes.  That's her brother.  And what name did Abel Tait hold?  Gee, I forgot that now.  Was he Luus?  Yeah.  That's the one that's --.  Okay.  Now, Richard, Abel -- Abel was Albert Tait's  father?  Yes.  Correct. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  Now, is your mother related to Mary McKenzie or was  she?  Yes.  Can you tell us how they were related?  Well, Mary McKenzie's mother was closely related to my  mother.  Mary McKenzie's mother was Esther Holland?  Yes.  Correct.  And were they like sisters?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, Richard, where was your mother raised when  she was raised with Mary Anne Jack and Mary Anne's  mother?  She was raised in Kuldo.  Okay.  Now, what House was Mary Anne Jack from?  Gyolugyet.  Okay.  Your father -- your father's name was Frederick  Wilitsxw?  Yes.  Okay.  And his House was the House of Wilitsxw?  Yes.  And he was from the Lax See'l Clan?  Uh-huh.  And I think you told me, Richard, that he passed on in  1962?  Yes.  And you also told me that your father Frederick  Wilitsxw and Fred Johnson --  Yes.  -- were brothers?  Yes.  They are brothers.  Okay.  And where did you live with your father as a  young boy?  Part of it I live in Kitwanga.  Kitwanga?  Yes.  But most of the time I live in Mezziadan.  That's where I really live.  You lived with your family in Mezziadan?  Yes.  And that was at Mezziadan Lake?  Yeah.  Okay.  Now, your father held the name of Wilitsxw?  Yes.  And he also I think you told me held the name of Gwax  gyooks and Waa t'ax an'on?  Yeah.  Well, you say them.  I know I am not very good at 1 these names, but what are the names that your father  2 held in addition to Wilitsxw?  3 A  Well, that's Gwax gyooks and Waa t'ax an'on.  4 Q   Thank you.  5 MR. PLANT:  May I have the spelling of those two names, please.  6 MR. RUSH:  Do you want them now?  7 MR. PLANT:  I think I better keep up with it as we go along.  8 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Fern, maybe you can just help us out.  9 MS. STEVENS:   G-w-a-x, underline, g-y-o-o-k-s.  10 MR. PLANT:  o-o-k-x?  11 MS. STEVENS:  Waa t'ax an'on is W-a-a space t-'-a-x underlined,  12 a-n-'-o-n.  13 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  14 MR. RUSH:  15 Q   Now, your mother and father lived at Mezziadan Lake  16 with your brothers and sister?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   How many brothers did you have?  19 A  Well, the old one was Eliza Benson and Maria -- Maria  20 and I was -- the other one died and I was after Maria  21 and then Freddy and then Louise and the young one was  22 Don and the next one is Felix.  23 Q   And you told me that your mother and father had an  24 arranged marriage, is that right?  25 A   Correct.  26 Q   And did their parents arrange their marriage for them?  27 A   Yes.  In those days the -- I guess that's they  28 understand, Jessie understand that, they just don't  29 get married to get anyone.  The family's got to check  30 this woman up because this man is good and they check  31 the background of that woman before they can arrange  32 that, so they gather all their relatives together and  33 then they go and get that woman.  They don't just go  34 and just marry anybody they met.  It's got to be  35 strictly arranged the way they live.  36 Q   Now, did your mother move from Kuldo to Mezziadan  37 Lake?  38 A   Yes.  That's in Kitwancool.  That's where my father  39 is.  40 Q   Okay.  Now, your grandfather on your mother's side was  41 Daniel Ska wil?  Is that right?  Grandfather on your  42 mother's side?  43 A   Yeah, that's right.  Because that's Daniel Ska wil was  44 the son of the old man Luus.  45 Q   Okay.  Now, did you -- did you know Daniel Ska wil?  46 A   Yes, I certainly do.  47 Q   Was he -- was he an old man or a young man when you 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  knew him?  He was old when I knew him.  All right.  And did you -- did you know him when he  was out on the trapping territory or hunting territory  of Dan Ska wil?  Yes.  I know we met together every once in awhile on a  trapping.  And were you trapping then with your own father?  Yes.  And where was Daniel Ska wil trapping at the time, do  you remember?  Well, he was trapping way up past that mountain.  Aawiijaa, I think.  Aawiij aa?  Uh-huh.  All right.  And was he trapping with Peter Morrison?  Yes.  Okay.  That's Daniel's nephew.  Okay.  And were Peter Morrison and your father, they  were close you told me?  Yes, that's right.  Okay.  Now, in order for Peter Morrison and Daniel Ska  wil to get to Aawiijaa, did they have to go through  your father's territory?  Yes.  They got to go through the Mezziadan Lake to get  there.  All right.  To Bowser Lake.  And was there a trail there that they used?  Yes.  There is a trail there.  And where was that?  Where did it start?  It start right at Mezziadan there and they get around  the mountain and they pasaws through that place that,  the one that I was telling, that mountain is Aadaahl  yee.  It goes over there and then it goes into Bowser.  And have you been on that trail yourself?  Yes.  So many times.  I don't know.  I grew up in that  place.  Now, the place where you grew up you say was at  Mezziadan Lake?  Yes.  And when you grew up there, were there houses located  at that place?  Yes.  There is a house located at -- right at the  outlet of the lake.  And there were a number of houses there, weren't 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  7  there?  Yes.  There is five there.  And do you remember who used those houses?  One house right there belongs to Luuxoon and the next  one was Wilitsxw, and the other one was my father.  That was Frederick?  Yes.  Was Fred Johnson -- did he have a House there, too?  Yes.  And Luuxoon, that's Ambrose Derrick, is it?  Correct.  Now, these houses were located at the outflow of  Mezziadan Lake?  Yes.  And did that -- did that outflow -- is that from  Mezziadan Lake into Mezziadan River?  Did the water go  into Mezziadan River?  No.  This -- the outlet, that's the Mezziadan River.  Yes.  All right.  And this was the place where the  houses were located was on Wilitsxw's territory?  Yes.  Okay.  And did you spend time as a young boy trapping  and hunting in that area?  Yes.  And did you fish in that area, too?  Yes.  Now, the house that you had there at the outflow, was  that a log house?  Yes.  And did you also have a smokehouse there?  Yes.  Can you just tell us what that looked like, that  smokehouse?  Well, you see, after the -- to preserve this dry fish,  you know, after they smoke it, they built that, that's  what they call, the use of land they had way up high  and there is supposed got to be smooth, put something  on it so the mice can't get in there or anything that  climbs.  Even the martin can steal those.  So that's  why it's really fixed good so nothing can get in.  And that's where the fish were kept, was it?  Yes.  All right.  Now, you lived at Mezziadan Lake until  about 1935, you told me?  Yes.  Is that right?  Correct, yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  And then after 1935 you went trapping with your aunt  Mary Anne Jack?  Yes.  And you also moved over to Glen Vowell?  Uh-huh.  Was that the year you got married, too?  Yes.  Now, just before I ask you about -- before I ask you  about your hunting and trapping after you moved over  in 1935, I want to ask you a little bit more about  what you did when you were at Mezziadan Lake.  And did  you spend most of your time at Mezziadan Lake, did you  spend most of your year as a young boy at Mezziadan  Lake?  Yes.  That's right.  Did you also spend some time at Kitwancool?  Yes.  And did Wilitsxw have a house at Kitwancool?  Yes.  He had a really good one there.  What was his house like?  Well, this is -- this is the chief's house.  That's a  really big one.  Jessie knows.  They got it here, too.  Chief's only got one great big house and she lives  right in the back here and the next nephew lives on  the right-hand and the other one's on the left and the  next one in the centre here and the other one's on the  right-hand side.  The people that so far away from  him, he lives on the left-hand side of the door and  the next one on the right-hand side.  The whole family  of the chief live in one house there.  That was -- that was the members of his house all  lived under one roof, did they?  Yes.  Correct.  Okay.  And Wilitsxw used to live at the back of the  house?  Yes.  And his nephews and relatives --  Uh-huh.  -- were on the left and right side --  Uh-huh.  -- along the house?  This must have been a large  house?  It's really big.  It must be about hundred foot long.  Did you see this house yourself?  Yes.  I see very many of them when I was young.  Kitwancool got them all.  Okay. 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  That's where I was raised when I was a little fellow.  That's how I really know.  Okay.  And there is only one wall there you can see through,  but I was telling you that I don't know how we survive  living there inside when there is 60 below zero.  You also told me there were lots of furs --  Yes.  -- to keep people warm?  Yes.  That's how -- that's where we slept in.  Now, you hunted and trapped with your father, did  you --  Yes.  -- up at Mezziadan?  Yes.  And did you fish with your father at Mezziadan at  Kitwancool?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I just want to ask you firstly about the  hunting and trapping at Mezziadan Lake.  You hunted  and trapped on your father's territory?  Yes.  And do you remember -- what's the name of his  territory where you went?  First it's -- that lake is Mezziadan and the  background there is Lax wii yip.  Lax wii yip?  Yes.  Okay.  And did your father teach you about how to go  about trapping?  Yes.  Did he teach you about hunting and how to do that?  Yes.  That's right.  Do you remember when you were trapping what was it --  what kind of fur bearing animals did you trap?  Well, in the fall early we started out trapping for  martin and fisher and all that, and minks.  Anything  that is travelling there.  Wolverine.  Did you trap weasle and squirrel, too?  Yes.  And you said that's what you trapped in the fall.  What did you trap in the spring?  Well, the spring when the ice is going out and then  that's when we start on the beaver.  Okay.  Beaver and all those in there, otter.  Now, you -- did you hunt when you were out on your 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  10  trapping territory as well?  Yes.  And you hunted mountain goats, did you?  Yes.  What else?  Well, you see, in the fall early, in the fall we go up  and hunt that mountain goats.  Later on we get onto  some moose.  Moose there were very few in those days.  Moose never been around here before.  Just the  caribou.  Did you hunt caribou then?  No, I never seen a caribou, because they all gone by  the time I was -- just the moose, that's --.  Did you hunt deer?  Yes.  Did you hunt bear?  Yeah.  Lots of bears there.  Okay.  And you told me that your family used to make a  certain kind of grease from the mooseskin or was  that -- was that --  That's the bear.  That's a bear skin, is it?  Yes.  All right.  And what kind of grease did you get from a  bear?  Well, I'll tell you how they start that.  You see, the  bear was so thick, the fat was so thick, that thick  with the skin, that fat will -- they leave the fat on  the skin.  So they preserve that fat.  When they  stretch it they make a stretch about like this.  It's  got to be pretty solid wood.  And they stretch that  and make it so tight.  It takes about three or four  men to stand that stretcher up, because that fat is so  heavy.  And then they get a real sharp knife and then  they start taking that fat off.  That's taking that  off and they roll down and something else real clean.  And after the fat was off there and they strip it  about that thick, you know, around like that and -- I  never forget I used to get lazy.  They sent me out to  get just those hemlock bark, you know, those old dry  ones, and they got real good bark, because they going  to make grease out of that fat.  So they strip it that  wide, you know, and then after that they made a trough  like that.  A trough?  Yes.  So about that long, maybe ten or 15 feet long  they lay on there.  And they got the stick with that 11  1 after they strip the fat, you know, they hand it like  2 that and there is a big log here.  That's where they  3 made the fire.  4 Q   And did the fat drip down into the trough?  5 A   Yes.  And they get something on the other end to  6 caught.  When that's full they put another one in  7 there.  Boy, they make a lot of grease out of the fat.  8 Q   And was this a very pure type of grease?  9 A   Yes.  It's really pure.  And I was surprised today I  10 can see it, it's whiter than lard.  It's really whiter  11 than lard, because it's made out alongside the fire.  12 Q   Was this used for frying and cooking?  13 A   Yes.  That's what they use it for.  Anything they cook  14 or —  15 Q   Okay.  16 A   — fry.  17 Q   Now, I'm going to ask you about oolichan grease later,  18 but I want to ask you about the fishing now, if I may.  19 Did you fish on Mezziadan River?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And did you fish at the falls at Mezziadan River?  22 A   Yes.  When we down at the falls, then we only use gaff  23 hooks.  24 Q   Okay.  25 A   To catch the fish.  26 Q   Can you tell us about how far from where the houses  27 were located at the outflow to Mezziadan Lake?  28 A   To the falls?  29 Q   Yes.  To the falls.  30 A   I believe it's at least about ten miles.  31 Q   Okay.  And you said that when you fished there you  32 used to gaff, is that right?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Okay.  And what kind of fish did you gaff there?  35 A   Just sockeye.  36 Q   Okay.  And was there any smoking or drying of the  37 sockeye done at that point?  38 A   Yes.  That's why we catch it for, you know, to dry it.  39 Q   And was there a smokehouse there?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Okay.  And did you use -- did you use that smokehouse?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Okay.  Was there any fishing done in Mezziadan Lake?  44 A   Yes.  The same, we done some of it, but the reason why  45 we fished down over to the falls there because there  46 is some better fish there.  They still got oil in  47 there.  That's after they move into the lake they lose 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  12  that oil.  Okay.  The fish had a high content of oil at the  falls?  Yes.  And then after they went into the lake they lost the  oil, did they?  Yes.  Was there spawning in Mezziadan Lake?  Oh, yes, there is lots of places where they spawn.  Okay.  The spawning ground in the lake, you know, this side  and across.  In fact, the fish is still there today.  If I go over there you can see the spawning ground.  Okay.  Did you fish -- did you fish at the outflow of  the lake, too?  Yes.  And what kind of -- what kind of gear did you use?  Well, right at the lake after we got hold of those  gillnet, that's what we use.  Okay.  And you fished the sockeye there?  Yes.  Did you fish in the lake at Mezziadan Lake?  Well, the only time we fished in there, you see,  because my mother made that net for the trout, you  know, to catch.  And did you catch trout in the lake?  Yes.  Were these Dolly Varden?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, Richard, can you tell me if you did any  fishing at Kitwancool?  Yes.  And do you know what kind of fishing gear they used at  Kitwancool?  The first thing I saw when I was just a little kid was  they used the fish traps.  And is there Gitksan name for the word trap?  Well, you see we had that they called that they block  the whole river.  And —  They call that T'in.  They called that T'in?  Yes.  T'in.  All right.  And did you see that in use?  Yes.  Okay.  And were there the rules around the use of this  trap? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  13  Yes.  There are really strict.  Like today, you know,  I was surprised, because my grandfather the boss of  that thing is really got a strict rules about it.  Because, you see, when the fish are spawning they  wouldn't let no young people play along where they are  spawning, because they are going to ruin all those  eggs that spawned in there.  Because if you do it  wouldn't have very much fish.  So the children weren't allowed to be around the  spawning fish?  No.  No way.  I'm going to get punished if I get  caught.  Okay.  Now, was -- did the chief -- I think you called  him the boss?  Yeah.  Did he decide when to allow the fish to go up?  Well, you see, they put that thing that I got, you  know, to block the fish off so they can go into that  fish trap that's set.  So did they have poles in the water?  Yeah.  And it covered the width of the river, did it?  Yeah.  They block the whole works.  But the way they  work it, you know, I don't know how many houses they  got in Kitwancool.  One day the next house got all the  fish next day, and when they -- whenever they got the  fish there, when the big -- saw -- right there saw too  much fish down below that T'in and he ordered those  young fellows to lift those up.  And the fish then passed up the river, did they?  Yes.  They let it go for maybe two days.  When they  need some more fish they drop it down again.  Okay.  And did that happen throughout the fishing  season?  Yes.  Okay.  But they -- still that man is looking after  everything, everybody got own fish.  When the house --  the old people from that house gather all the fish and  pack it to the houses.  That's how it goes.  You keep  going around like that until the fish are gone.  They  really do look after the fish.  They don't allow  nobody to waste anything.  That's there because they  got -- each man in the house got to watch everything.  Okay.  That's the simoogit, that's the big boss in the house.  That's the chief. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  14  That's the big chief?  Yeah.  Did the people have respect for the fish?  Yes.  They really do.  I never forget what my  grandfather said when -- in the spring when the first  fish that comes along they caught like what I said,  you know, they put it in that feather.  We call it  'miix k'aax.  They let in there.  They let in there.  That's the respect, and they talk to the fish, the  first one that comes up.  And after that when they  dress the fish and they start cutting it up because  it's the only one.  And each person, each house get a  piece.  The first pieces of the first fish were distributed to  members of the house?  Yes.  The whole village.  To the houses.  All right.  And the feathers that you  talked about --  Yeah.  Was this a special kind of down feather?  Yeah.  That's really down feather from that eagle.  We  called that 'miix k'aax.  That's what the Indian use  when they respect somebody.  If I respect Jessie, she  will come in, I will hand it and I blow it on her.  When you were a boy, Richard, how many houses were  there at Kitwancool, do you recall?  Just the head chiefs at the time was got the house and  he had all these relatives and family in there.  There  is not very many big house I saw at least.  I think  there is only ten or eleven in Kitwancool, you know.  I guess you have seen that little bends that's --  there is no house there now in Kitwancool.  That's  where the old village is.  All right.  When you were trapping with your father on  your father's trapping territory, did you -- did you  learn some of the names of the places where he  trapped?  Do you remember some of the creek names that  you trapped by?  Yeah.  Well, you know, right in the back there where  they used to trap, they called that long creek, you  know, that -- I don't know -- I don't think it's got a  name, but on account of prospectors on there, they  call that creek Xsi biinst because they spill that  beans down there.  They get -- they still call that  creek today.  And the next one below there they used  to be some steelhead in there, you know.  They call  that creek and Onx milit. 15  1 MR. PLANT:  May I have the spelling of that name, please.  2 MS. STEVENS: Onx milit, O-n-x underlined, space m-i-1-i-t.  3 MR. RUSH:  4 Q   Do you remember any other creeks that you trapped or  5 hunted on with your father as a boy?  6 MR. PLANT:  Before the witness answers that, Mr. Rush, just by  7 way of clarification as anything else, are we talking  8 about territory now of Kitwancool chiefs?  9 MR. RUSH:  We are talking about a territory of the Kitwancool  10 chiefs.  His father Wilitsxw, yes.  11 MR. PLANT:  And I take it it's obvious from the fact that you  12 are leading the evidence that it's relevant in some  13 way?  14 MR. RUSH:  It's relevant to the knowledge that he got as a young  15 person and how he acquired his knowledge of names of  16 places which he then applied and used in the  17 territories that are the subject of this action.  18 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  19 MR. RUSH:  2 0       Q   Do you remember any of the other names, Richard?  21 A   That big river that comes from An ahl yee, the one  22 that they call Hannah River.  23 Q   Hannah River?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Okay.  26 A  And that goes up and it goes past and it's right up to  27 that mountain, An ahl yee.  2 8       Q   That was the name of the mountain?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And I think you told me about a place that was called  31 wilx tsi'iyatsxw, which is a place where they chopped  32 a piece out of a log?  33 A   Oh, yeah.  That's that -- that's on this site of  34 Hannah River.  There is a little place like this that  35 we used to go on when we trapping.  The one that you  36 just talk about.  And I don't know, it was nice hill  37 and all of a sudden it goes like this.  That's how  38 they got that name, that my grandfather called wilx  39 tsi'iyatsxw.  40 Q   Now, did you hunt and trap close to where Daniel Ska  41 wil hunted and trapped, and I think you said that  42 Daniel Ska wil trapped at Aawiijaa?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Were you close to his territory?  45 A   No.  Not too close because there is past Bowser Lake  46 right here and there is another creek comes in here.  47 That's where Peter Morrison trapped on this side of 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  16  Ska wil.  Okay.  Because Ska wil is got a good trapping beaver grounds  on that side there.  That's why he camp here.  He  wouldn't let Peter go in there.  Well, I tell you the  other thing what Peter done, I happen to be around.  There is a mountain here and Ska wil was made a camp  right here so he wouldn't go there, so Peter goes on  the side of the mountain, goes over the mountain and  get on.  On the other side?  Yeah.  Gee, I laughed when I find out.  And they were  standing, he was trapping here, but Peter went over  the mountain and he trapped on the other side.  Oh,  my.  Richard, did you spend some time at a residential  school?  Yes.  How old were you when you went to residential school?  I don't know.  Must be around ten or maybe 12.  And where did you go to residential school?  They called that old school Kukulitza.  That's on  Sardis.  At Sardis?  Yes.  And do you remember how long you stayed there?  I think about pretty close to four years anyway.  And what was the -- what was the attitude of the  teachers or the principal to you when you were there?  Well, you see, the principal we got there is pretty  strict.  He is really strict on everything.  He  even -- he even wouldn't let us anything -- to do  anything.  Could you speak your own language?  I don't know why.  He doesn't allowed us to speak our  own language.  And what --  I was with the Nass River boys, you know, and then we  used to talk our language because I understand their  language.  If I get caught, I have to stand before the  principal.  Okay.  Were you allowed to leave the school grounds?  Only those boys that are really good and respective  and obedient to everything that's in the school, they  are the one -- I was one of them.  I can -- they  allowed me to go out, you know, there is lot of salmon  berries there way outside.  They allowed me to go out 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  17  but it's only two hours.  I got to be back before  supper.  Okay.  There is only few boys can do that, those that are --  they are really trusted.  They are not going to do  anything.  Now, when you were there you got sick?  Yes.  And you got very sick, I understand?  Yes.  And you got rheumatism?  Yeah.  And as a result of that you were kept to your bed for  two years?  Yes.  I was bed-ridden for two years on account of  that.  That's why I lose out on my education.  Did you return to Mezziadan?  Yeah.  I returned to Mezziadan after I start walking  around again.  Okay.  And did you go back then again hunting and  trapping with your father?  Yes.  After that?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  Now, were there trails on the territory of your  father?  Yes.  Okay.  And was there a trail that you knew as the  grease trail?  Did you know the grease trail?  No.  The grease trail is up at Kispiox that goes all  the way down to Nass.  Everybody goes down there, you  know.  That's why they call grease trail, because all  the Kispiox and everybody that travels down there.  I  seen that trail is pretty deep, because they walk on  it with their heavy pack on their back.  You are showing about a foot deep?  Yes.  Did you walk on this trail?  Yes.  Because, you see, when I was small I got tired  walking about that deep, you know.  I can just sit  down there.  Okay.  It's so deep.  Why were they -- why did they call it the grease  trail?  Well, that's the only trail they used to go down to  get the grease in Nass River. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  18  Was that oolichan grease?  Yes.  That's oolichan grease.  And did people from Kispiox bring the oolichan grease  back from the Nass?  Yes.  Did your family do that, too?  Yes, they did.  Okay.  Did any members of your family help make the  grease?  Yes.  Did you do that?  No.  I saw those big thing they used to boil, but I  don't know what they got underneath, because it's  all -- I don't know what kind of wood they use.  And then the grease was brought back to your home, was  it?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, there were other trails on your father's  territory, too, were there?  Yeah.  Okay.  And when you hunted and trapped with your  father, did he teach you ways about how to conserve or  regulate the animals on his trapping and hunting  grounds?  Yes.  What did he teach you?  Well, he teach me that we not supposed to just to kill  anything.  If I got enough -- if we got enough there,  well, he would -- even with the animals still around  they told me not to touch them.  That's the rules they  got there, so we had to do that.  And they teach us  how to dry them and to where they keep them so if we  will never run out of it.  Did he teach you things about how to conserve the  beaver?  Yes.  What did he -- what did he tell you there?  Well, after we caught so many, my father teach me I  just catch so much in one -- well, the beavers got a  house and he knows exactly how much is in there.  He  told me if you caught all this, well, just leave the  rest.  Go to the next one.  So you could only catch so much of the beaver in that  one house?  Yes.  So we can always have fur year.  And did he teach you any measures of conservation  regarding the moose or the deer or the bear? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  19  Yes.  That's exactly the same thing, too, because you  see, we can only kill so much of this one and that,  and we have to preserve those that are still there.  So we wouldn't -- they wouldn't run out of anything  like that.  They had strictly the rules over all the  animals.  Not just the fish.  The animals, too.  Now, did you follow these rules and teachings about  conservation when you trapped and hunted --  Yeah.  -- later on?  Yes.  We have to because --.  Now, I want to ask you now, Richard, about when you  moved out of your family's home place at Mezziadan  Lake to when you moved to the east and started  trapping with Mary Anne Jack.  Yes.  That was 1935, I think you said?  Yes.  And you also married that year?  Uh-huh.  Who -- what was your wife's name who you married that  year, your first wife's name?  Eva.  And what was her English name, her last English name?  Wesley.  Okay.  And you moved to -- did you at that same year  begin to live in Glen Vowell?  Yes.  Now, that year you told me that you went trapping with  Mary Anne Jack?  Yes.  And she was from the House of Gyolugyet?  Yes.  And can you tell us -- did you go to the territory of  Gyolugyet, that year?  Yes.  And who did you travel with besides Mary Anne?  Well, we travelled with her husband Tommy and Jasper  Jack and David.  And David.  All right.  And what time of the year did  you go, do you remember?  Well, it's almost spring.  That was kind of late for  us at the time.  There was --  Did —  First day -- the last day of March.  And how did you get up there?  How did you --  Well, we got dog teams and toboggan. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19 MR.  PLAN1  2 0 MS.  stev:  21  22 MR.  RUSH  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  20  Okay.  All right.  And was there a trail that you  followed to get up there?  Yes.  We go up on the Kispiox River on the ice.  And how far up, can you just -- can you just tell us  the route that you followed or the trail that you took  in order to get to Gyolugyet's territory?  Well, we go up on Kispiox.  After we get, well, too  close to the lake, there is is no ice, we turn off.  There is another little lake there they call An nuux.  That's where we travelled, and then we crossed the  Kispiox and Lax di T'ax.  You crossed Kispiox River there?  Yes.  And we get on that Lax di T'ax Lake and then we  went over there and then after we get over there we  get onto T'am nax ts'inaasit.  That's that --  That's a lake, is it?  Yes.  All right.  :  May I have the spelling for T'am nax ts'inaasit?  \FS :  T ' am nax ts'inaasit, T-' a-m, another word, n-a-x  underlined, another word, t-s-'-i-n-a-a-s-i-t.  Okay.  Go ahead.  And after T'am nax ts'inaasit, where  did you go from there, Richard?  Well, we go to that lake and go up through that valley  again and then -- and then we go onto the next lake  again.  That's Gwin naa giistuxw.  Gwin naa giistuxw?  Yeah.  And is there a river by the same name, Gwin naa  giistuxw River?  Yeah.  Did you follow that river?  Yes.  We have to go down.  And when -- where did you go after Gwin naa giistuxw?  What route did you go?  Well, we still go down there and there is some kind  of -- this mountain on the -- as we go down the --  it's on the left-hand side.  And even the Kitwancool  called that Lip haa hetxwit, they called that place.  That's —  And we still keep on going down on that route and then  after we passed that and we keep on going down that's  a nice going until we get to that creek, that river.  That creek there is Xsa'an Lo'op.  Xsa'an Lo'op?  Yeah. 1 MR.  PLAN1  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8 MR.  RUSH  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  21  :  May I interrupt?  You have asked the name of the  mountain.  The Kitwancool had a name for a mountain on  the left?  That's Lip haa hetxwit.  That's the funny mountain.  Lip haa hetxwit means that's all standing out by  itself.  There is no other mountain beside it.  That's  why they call it Lip haa hetxwit.  Is that --  Standing alone.  Who told you the name of that when you went by it?  Well, I know that before I even travelled through  there.  My father used to talk about it and all the  Kitwancool.  All the kids would go and what?  Hey?  You said all the kids would do something?  No.  The Kitwancool were talking about that mountain.  I see.  The Kitwancool.  So you knew that mountain  when you went by it --  Yes.  -- with Mary Anne?  Yes.  Okay.  And after you went past Xsa'an Lo'op River,  where did you go?  Well, we keep on going over to the -- that country.  Then we get into the Nass River.  You got to the Nass River?  Yes.  Okay.  And is there a place where you made your camp?  Was there some place that you stopped?  Well, we keep on going up on the river there into  the -- I don't know how many days and then we get in  closer to -- they call that place Win skahl guuhl.  Win skahl guuhl?  Yeah.  Did you camp there?  No.  We made the main camp below that alongside of the  Nass River.  That's our main camp.  Okay.  Is Win skahl guuhl, is that a canyon?  Yes.  And is that on the Nass River?  Yes.  That's on the Nass River.  Okay.  And your -- your camp, the place where you  camped back when you were there with Mary Anne --  Yes.  -- was just down river from that -- 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  22  Yeah.  -- canyon?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  All right.  Now, I just wanted to ask you a  couple of questions about the places that you passed  on the trail on the way up.  You mentioned that you  went to Lax di t'ax?  Yes.  And do you remember whose territory Lax di t'ax, whose  territory that was in?  Well, at the time, you know, that's William Stevens  was living there.  He had a cabin there, did he?  Yes.  Or some house?  He had -- they had a good cabin there.  Okay.  And you also told me about a lake that you  passed called T'am nax ts'inaasit?  Yes.  And do you know whose territory this lake was in?  Gee, I forgot the Indian name of that.  That's George  Williams.  Okay.  So that was George Williams?  Yes.  And you just forgotten his Gitksan name?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, when you went by those various creeks and  mountains and lakes, who told you about the names?  Did you know the names before you were there?  Just a few.  Mary Anne keep on telling me everything  when we camp and then she start talking and telling  and everything.  Okay.  And the -- how much time did it take you to get  up there to Gyolugyet's territory before you started  the trapping?  I think when we travel like that, you know, it takes a  long time.  Yes.  With the heavy load going up, maybe it's about two  weeks before we got there.  Okay.  And do you remember on that occasion, Richard,  how long you were gone altogether, how many weeks or  months went by?  Maybe six or seven weeks that we --.  Okay.  Now, where did you -- where did you begin your  trapping?  What point did you started trapping or  hunting when you got up to where you were going with 23  1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22 MR.  PLANT  2 3 MR.  RUSH:  2 4 MR.  PLANT  2 5 MR.  RUSH:  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  A  Mary Anne on that occasion?  Well, that before we go, you know, and Mary Anne tell  us will come with us and take us across that Xsihl  Guugan.  Is that a river?  Yes.  And you crossed that river, did you?  Yes.  We get across there and then they show us where  the trail, it goes up there and they almost draw a map  there, you know, and until that every so far, you  know, this trap has -- you can see these marks, she  said, and look for it.  Well, that's what I did.  I  looked around and find the trap.  When the trap runs  out, then I hit the next one.  Okay.  There is another bunch hanging.  Okay.  You were told where to find the traps?  Yes.  And was it Mary Anne who told you?  Yes.  All right.  And —  :  Could I have the name of the river.  Xsihl Guugan.  :  Thank you.  Now, that is the Taylor river.  Okay.  That's —  Now, Richard, which side of the Xsihl Guugan did you  trap on?  Going up I was on the right-hand side.  As you were going north?  Yes.  Okay.  And when you went north you said you went from  place to place where you were told the traps were?  Yes.  Did you find the traps where you were told they would  be?  Yes.  And was there something on the trees that told you?  Yeah, they got some paint on the tree there and then  you will find so many traps there.  How many traps would be in a tree?  Well, the first one I got was ten and the next one was  little bigger, because it's got a longer way to go.  There was 15 on it.  It's marked on a tree.  Okay.  And were these traps hanging in the tree?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  24  And then would you set the traps after you had found  them?  Yes.  Okay.  And had you ever been there before?  No, I wasn't.  That was -- that was the first time.  Were you able to find all the traps that time?  Well, you see, when you are trapper, you got to  understand when you look at marks on everything and  you understand what's going on there.  That's way I  am.  That's how I make it so easy for me to find that  trap and the place where to go.  You look at mountain,  Mary Anne told me, you see there is.  So that's where  I look.  I find it.  Okay.  Now, was Mary Anne Jack, was she trapping, too?  Yes.  Where was she -- what side of Xsihl Guugan, was she?  They were on the left-hand side.  Okay.  That would be the side to the west, would it?  Yes.  Okay.  And who is it that you were with?  Who was  trapping with you?  That was Jasper Jack.  Okay.  And was he related to Mary Anne?  Was he a  brother or --  No.  There is some kind of a son like.  Because Jasper  is Mary Anne's husband's son, you see.  I see.  Tommy's son .  I see.  Okay.  Now, who was trapping there before you?  Did you know who trapped in that area before you?  No.  Did Mary Anne --  There is --  Sorry?  There is so many.  Did Mary Anne tell you who had trapped just before you  in there?  I don't know.  There is so many there.  She mentioned  the name of -- I don't know.  Yankxws or something  like that  Now -- Yankxws.  Now, did you -- the traps that were  in the trees, did you -- you used those traps?  Yes.  You've told me before about dead-fall traps?  Uh-huh.  Did you -- you knew how to make a dead-fall trap?  Yes. 25  1 Q Did you use any dead-fall traps when you were up there  2 on that occasion?  3 A No.  4 Q Okay.  5 A I just try one, just for fun.  6 Q Okay.  7 A And it works all right.  It's better than a trap.  8 Q What kinds of animals did you trap?  9 A That's -- this is just strictly martin.  10 Q Okay.  And when you returned southward along the  11 trapping line, what did you do with the traps?  12 A Well, when we finished what Mary Anne tell me, she --  13 "Will you pick up the traps and hang them in the  14 tree where you got it."  15 Q Did you do that?  16 A Yes.  17 Q Okay.  And did you meet Mary Anne and Tommy again?  18 A Yes.  19 Q Back at your camp?  20 A Yes.  21 Q Okay.  Now, when you were up there, did Mary Anne tell  22 you about the names of the places?  23 A Yes.  24 Q And the boundary of the territories up there?  25 A Yes.  26 Q Did she tell you stories?  27 A Well, in some times she does.  2 8 Q Okay.  And now, when you returned that year, did you  2 9 follow down the same -- did you come home the same way  30 back down the trail that you've mentioned or did you  31 return a different way?  32 A Yeah, the same way, but I had a trail.  I got a trail  33 there in the summer.  34 Q And you followed -- did you follow that trail back  35 down?  36 A Yes.  37 Q Okay.  38 A It's the same place where we come out we go up, but  39 it's different because it's the summer trail.  4 0 Q Okay.  So by the time you came out you were on a  41 summer trail?  42 A Yes.  43 Q Okay.  And was it -- could you -- was it easy to find  44 the trail?  Was it hard to find it or what?  45 A Yes.  It's easy, because, you see, they used to use  46 horse to go up there.  47 Q Okay. 26  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11 MR.  RUSH  12  13  14  15  16  17  18 MR.  RUSH  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  But I think we should  it's all right if we  In the summer.  Well, it's about -- it's about 3:30.  We have been  going for about an hour and a half.  I would like to  propose we take a ten minute break and I'd like to  suggest that depending on our durability that we go to  4:30 or thereabouts and if we can go a little bit  longer that will be fine, too.  target for 4:30.  Richard, if  take a ten minute break now?  Yes.  Okay.  Great.  So we can just relax for ten minutes  and then we will come back and we will do about  another 40 minutes before we take the night off.  Okay.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  Okay.  We'll start again now, Richard.  I wanted to  ask you when you were out on this trip with Mary Anne  Jack, did you do any hunting?  Yes.  What were you hunting for?  Well, we -- we had to stop every once in awhile and  had to hunt for some moose.  Okay.  Did you hunt for any smaller animals?  No.  No?  And was the moose for food for you?  Yes.  Was it food for your dogs as well?  Yes.  That's what —.  Okay.  And the territory where you were doing your  trapping where you told me you found the traps, whose  territory was that?  That's Gyolugyet.  And did you understand that to be Gyolugyet from what  Mary Anne Jack told you?  Yes.  Now, when you were out on the territory that time did  you see any non-Indian people on your whole trip?  Did  you see any non-Indian people?  No.  No.  Now, the year later, Mr. Benson, did you go out -- did  you go out on the -- trapping again on the following  year, 1936?  Yes.  And did you go to the same country or did you go to a 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  27  different place to trap?  In '36, yeah, I went on the different place.  Okay.  Do you remember who you went with in '36?  That's Philip Brown.  And do you know what House Philip was in?  Yes.  That's Gyolugyet's.  Okay.  Were you with anyone else in addition to  Philip?  Yes.  That's his father.  And his father's name was Albert Brown?  Yes.  What name did Albert hold then?  Gee, I forget.  That's —  We can come back to that.  I'd like you to try to  remember Albert's name.  Uh-huh.  And where did you trap that next year in 1936?  I -- I trapped on the -- at Lax di t'ax.  Yes.  And whose territory was that?  That's William Stevens.  And did you trap anywhere else that year with Philip  or Albert?  Yes.  Do you remember where?  I did trap up the one that I was there.  It's Xsa  galliixawit.  Xsa galliixawit?  Yes.  Okay.  And who -- what chief holds that territory?  Gee, I couldn't remember that.  Okay.  Do you remember where you trapped there at that  time?  Yes.  We went down to Xsa galliixawit and then after  we got further down we turned left.  Then we turn up  to Xsi masxwit lo'op and that mountain that's the  name, too.  Okay.  And did Philip and Albert, did they tell you  about the names in there?  Did they -- you have never  been there before, had you?  No.  That was your first time?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  Right.  But I forgot this, you know.  At head of that  Xsa galliixawit, remember that mountain there, the  high one.  That's what we call Naa 'oogil.  Naa 'oogil? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  Yes.  Why do they call it Naa 'oogil?  Well, I don't know the story.  But there is a man  stand right at the peak of that mountain.  He's still  standing there today.  Go up there and I used to see  it.  Okay.  Now, when you were at Xsa galliixawit, what  were you trapping for that year?  We trapping that's for the martin and fisher,  wolverine.  Okay.  And did you -- did you -- did you see any other  people, any other Gitksan people out trapping that  year?  Did you --  Not in Xsa galliixawit, but after sometimes we turn  over Xsi masxwit lo'op and then we go down to this  Nass River.  That's right across from Win skahl guuhl.  Yes.  Where some of the people that trapping there, they  know we are down here.  They came over and visit us.  This is the place you had been the year before?  Yes.  Okay.  That's Win skahl guuhl?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  And who did you see there that year?  Who came  over and who talked to you?  Well, there was -- that is Wally Danes' father.  Wally?  Danes.  Wally Danes' father?  Yes.  Joseph Danes was there and he was with -- he's  some of the -- that married the relatives.  I see a  lot of them.  There is Philip Turner I saw there.  Okay.  And what House was Joseph Danes in?  Well, that's -- that's Wiigyet.  That's his name.  Not  Wiigyet.  That's Gyolugyet.  Okay.  That's Joseph's name at the time.  Now, were they trapping in Gyolugyet's territory?  Yes.  Okay.  I just wanted to ask you.  You said that you  had came over what I took to be a mountain and was  that Masxwit lo'op?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, did you know whose territory Masxwit lo'op  is in or is it more than one territory?  It was part of that Xsa galliixawit.  Okay. 29  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41 MR.  PLANT  42  43  4 4 MR.  RUSH:  4 5 MR.  PLANT  4 6 MR.  RUSH:  47  Q  Because that's where we turn and come up.  Okay.  And you would go over that and down to Win  skahl guuhl?  Yeah.  And that's on the Nass?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  I was with them, that's why -- that's why they come  upon me, because I was belonging to that place down  there.  That's why it wouldn't hurt you to go down and  see.  Yes.  When you say you belong to the place down there,  do you mean to Gyolugyet's House?  Yeah.  All right.  You see, because Joseph at that time was my uncle, you  see.  I see.  So —  So you could go down there?  Yes.  All right.  Now, you were coming from another  territory, though?  Yes.  That's right.  Xsa galliixawit is another territory?  Yes.  Do you have -- do you have any -- can you remember now  whose it is?  Gee, I don't know why I couldn't get that.  Okay.  Have you and I talked about that?  Yes.  Okay.  And did you tell me that that was Wii 'goob'1's  territory?  Yes.  That's right.  Okay.  And was Albert Brown, did he have Wii 'goob'1's  name?  Yes.  That's the one he's got.  That's why he got that  creek, Xsa galliixawit.  That was his territory, was it?  Yes.  :  I am sorry to go back a minute, but there was  something about an uncle so that Richard could go down  to Gyolugyet's territory.  Joseph Danes was Richard's uncle.  :  Thank you very much.  Who was Gyolugyet.  Now, was that in 1936, was -- was there a flood that 30  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21 MR.  22 MR.  23  24  25  2 6 MR.  2 7 MS.  28  2 9 MR.  3 0 MS.  31  32 MR.  33  34 MR.  35 MR.  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  year?  A   Yes.  That's the worst that ever happened.  Q   Okay.  And was that -- was that a difficult -- was  that a difficult year to trap?  A   Yes.  You can't make if home, because all the rivers  and creeks they are so high.  Even through the bushes  you couldn't go through there.  Q   Okay.  Now, Richard, you trapped up there after 1936  too, didn't you?  A   Yes.  Q   Can you tell us where you trapped in 1937, '38 and so  on?  Do you remember where you trapped in '37?  A   That's when I was trapping with that man there, that  Tom Sampson, that's in Maaxhlaa lihl janda.  That's a  different --  That's a different place?  Yes.  Was that in 1937?  Yes.  Okay.  :  May I have the name of that place.  Yes.  That's —  Do you want to say it again?  Maaxhlaa lihl janda.  And that lake right there is  T'am nihl janda.  T'am nihl janda.  Fern, can you help us with that?  M-a-a-x underlined h-l-a-a  Q  A  Q  A  Q  PLANT  RUSH:  Q  A  RUSH:  STEVENS:  Maaxhlaa lihl janda is  space j-a-n-d-a.  PLANT:  j-a-n — ?  STEVENS:  d-a.  And then T'am nihl janda is t-'-a-m space  n-i-h-1 space j-a-n-d-a.  PLANT:  I can tell you that my spelling is not improving.  Thank you.  Well, we had hoped for some progress here, Mr. Plant.  I have the spelling of "lake" down now.  RUSH:  PLANT:  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Now, Richard, Tom Sampson, was he related to you?  Yes.  How was he related to you?  Well, he's my uncle.  Okay.  And you were about to tell us about T'am nihl  janda.  Where is T'am nihl janda?  Do know whose  territory that's in or how you get there?  Well, you go up on that telegraph line where you hit  Xsi nihl janda, that river that enters and the fourth  cabin is across there, and then on the left-hand side  you go up there to the Xsi nihl janda.  As you go up 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  31  just before you get there is another creek that runs.  I think they they call that creek Gasa lax Lo'obit.  There is a small little creek you can just cross there  past that and then you got into the lake.  That's the lake being-- ?  T'am nihl janda.  Okay.  Now, if you went north of Kuldo village, you go  up the Skeena River --  Yes.  -- would you?  And would you get to a mountain called  Poison Mountain?  Yes.  In order to get T'am nihl janda, would you have to go  over Poison Mountain?  Yes.  We have to go over there.  And then you keep -- you keep going north until there  is a --  After you get over Poison Mountain there is another  creek that runs on the other side, that's they call  that.  We call it Xsa'an xhli 'moox.  That's that  creek.  On the other side of Poison Mountain?  Yes.  And does that flow into the Skeena?  Yes.  It comes from the north, doesn't it?  Yes.  It flows into the Skeena?  Uh-huh.  And then Janda, the next creek?  Yes, you pass that and you go up and straight up and  then that's when you hit Xsi nihl janda.  That's the  creek that comes from that lake.  Right.  Okay.  Now, you trapped in that area --  Yes.  -- around the creek and the lake and in that territory  with Tom Sampson?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  Now, Tom was related to Charlie, wasn't he?  Yes.  That's his brother.  His brother.  And do you remember what House -- what  House was it that they were in?  That's Niist.  Niist?  Yeah.  Okay.  Now, do you remember how many years that you  trapped in that area with Tom? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  2 5 MR.  RUSH  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37 MR.  PLAN1  38  3 9 MR.  RUSH  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  32  I think I went over there about five -- that's just  the beaver season was over.  You just trapped beaver up there?  Yes.  And would you have trapped in another area in the fall  before going there or did you just trap the beaver  those times?  Yes.  Just the beaver.  Okay.  So you think you went there about five times?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  Now, did you stop going up there with Tom  eventually for something that happened to Tom?  Yes.  He completely lost his site or something.  And he couldn't go up there because of his eyesight?  Yes.  All right.  Now, Richard, when you went up there did  you used to go through Kuldo and up the Skeena to get  there?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I wanted to show you some -- I have a  photocopy of some photographs and I think I'd like to  show you these photographs because I think they show  you and Tom?  Yes.  Now, I have -- unfortunately I have to advise you I  only have photocopies.  One photocopy of three  photographs.  Because I sent the positives that I have  to be duplicated to get you larger copies and I don't  have them, unfortunately.  And I am hoping to have  them by week's end, but I fear the worst.  Whatever  the case, what I would like to do is mark this as an  exhibit.  I'll give you reproduced positives of these  photographs for your files so that you don't have to  rely on photocopy basically, but I can't do much  better than provide you with this photocopy today,  unfortunately.  :  All right.  Well, perhaps we should make sure that  the witness can identify the photocopies.  Yes, I will do that.  Now, Richard, I am just showing you three photographs  or photocopies of photographs.  Can you make out the  people in the top photograph there.  Just take a close  look at them.  Yeah.  That's Tom Sampson standing there.  Is he the man with the sunglasses on?  Yeah.  And who is the other man there? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  33  Well, that's me standing there holding that fisher.  Are you standing there or sitting there?  Sitting.  All right.  Okay.  And what's the -- what's the thing  on the right side that looks like something on a  stretched piece of wood?  Well, those are the beaver that we stretched.  Okay.  Did you take that photograph yourself?  Yeah.  How did you do that?  Well, as we stand up I set the stick over here, then I  will make Tom stand over there.  Then I get a little  string, then I went back and I touched that too early  and it snapped.  That's why the photograph is not very  good.  So I looked like those two dogs.  Well, you were talking about the second photograph  there?  Yeah.  But just talking about the top photograph.  Oh, yes.  You are sitting down here?  Uh-huh.  And are you using a little string to trigger the  camera mechanism?  Yes.  Okay.  I thought that was right.  Now, are these --  the white object that appears on the left foreground  of the top photograph, is that -- I am just pointing  to that here.  That's a beaver pelt, is it?  Yes.  Is that a skin?  Yeah.  Okay.  Did you string it together like this out on the  territory?  Yes.  Is that something that you normally did when you were  trapping --  Yeah.  -- beaver?  Yes.  Okay.  All right.  And this photograph was taken --  where was it taken?  What place were you at?  The place I am at there is a small little lake right  here.  There is just a little one.  Was it close to T'am nihl janda?  Yeah.  All right. 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  34  But there is another one they call that little lake  Ant kii gee'n.  That's name of that little lake.  Uh-huh.  All right.  What that mean Ant kii gee'n, you know, they catching  the trout.  They chew something and they spit down  here and the trout gets after it.  The trout gets after what you spit into the water?  Yeah.  That's -- that's what Ant kii gee'n means.  In English?  Yes.  Yes.  All right.  Now, the middle paragraph, Richard,  it appears to show the -- a sled and some dogs?  Yes.  That's the toboggan we got.  And it looks like it's double-exposed?  Yeah.  And were you telling me that you --  Yeah.  -- that you tripped the camera a little too soon  there, did you?  Yeah.  And then I snap it again.  That's why it looks  like that.  All right.  Can you tell me where was -- where was  that photograph taken?  That's when we just enter onto that T'am nihl janda.  That's right on the lake, is it?  Yeah.  It's right on.  The outlet is just in the back.  And who is in the photograph?  I know that you are  just barely in the photograph.  But who is in the  photograph?  Well, that's Tom Sampson right there in the front.  With the skis?  Yeah.  All right.  And what about the other photograph which  is the third and bottom photograph of this?  Well, that's -- that's on the Skeena.  That's the  whole bunch of us going out trapping.  And what year was that, do you remember?  I think it's in '43.  That's a little early.  That's  why we used the toboggan going up there.  And when you went up in trapping into the -- to the  north territories that you went to, did you normally  travel in groups as shown in this photograph?  Well, yes, sometimes.  Okay.  Because it make it easier for us in the winter, you  know, breaking the trail on the ice, because the snow  is so deep.  The next people, they go out in the front 35  MR.  4 3 MR.  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  IE  19  20  21  22  23  2 4 MR.  2 5 MR.  2 6 MR.  2 7 MR.  2 8 MR.  2 9 MR.  3 0 MR.  31 MR.  32  33  34 MR.  35 MR.  36  37  3 8 MR. RUSH  39  40  41  42 MR  and break it and they take turns doing that.  Okay.  Now, I know it's very difficult for you to pick  out people on this photocopy, but are you able to tell  us any of the other people that are in that photograph  from what you remember it to be?  Well, there was Simon Wright standing there.  And  there was Charlie Sampson standing there.  That's his  son, big boy behind there looking after the toboggan.  And there was Jack Tait right there.  That's Baskyelax  ha.  Baskyelax ha?  Yeah.  All right.  And you took this photograph here, did  you?  Yeah, I took it.  You didn't use a string on that bottom one?  Yeah -- no.  That's one I took.  Okay. Well, I am going to mark this as an exhibit,  please. I am going to mark three as one if you don't  have any difficulty with that.  (EXHIBIT 1:  Three photographs)  May I have a look at it for a minute.  Yes.  You received copies of these, didn't you?  Oh, I didn't actually get a copy.  You didn't get the photocopy of this?  No.  Well, it was sent to you.  So --  MACAULAY:  Take a look at it.  PLANT:  I am not taking an issue with the fact that I didn't  receive these.  You sent a letter which said they  would be attached to it.  And they weren't attached to it?  Well, the only copy of that letter that I ever saw  was a FAXed copy and I can remember at the moment and  it didn't come with the FAX.  It didn't.  Well, I apologize then to you for that  because it was intended to be both FAXed to you and  copied to you and if you had said so I would have got  you a copy.  PLANT:  Well, as I said I am not taking any issue with that.  RUSH:  All right.  Very good.  Q   Richard, I wanted to ask you now, did you trap with  your uncle Abel Tait after trapping with Tom Sampson?  A   Yes.  Q   And Abel, he held the name of Luus, didn't he?  PLANT:  RUSH:  PLANT:  RUSH:  PLANT:  RUSH:  RUSH:  PLANT: 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  A  36  Yes.  All right.  And did you trap with him after 1944?  Yes.  And I understand that you trapped -- the place where  you were located when you went out from trapping --  out to trapping was Kuldo?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  Now, can you just tell me where you trapped,  what part of the territories you trapped in when you  were up in that area?  Yes.  We -- the Kuldo is on this side of the Skeena,  so we crossed the Skeena.  Then we go up and start  trapping on the other side and we go up the Skeena.  Okay.  Did you -- was part of the place where you  trapped Xsagan Gaksda.  Xsagan Gaksda?  Xsagan Gaksda is way back here.  Okay.  Did you trap there as well?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I just -- I just want to divide up the two  places where you trapped.  And can you tell me how  many times you went in firstly to Xsagan Gaksda?  I really don't know because it's almost every fall I  trapped there.  Oh, okay.  And were you there by yourself or --  Yes.  -- were you with somebody?  Yes.  There is lots of times I am all alone.  Okay.  Now, whose territory was that?  Well, that's -- in the first place that's Gyolugyet.  And were you given permission to go into that part of  Gyolugyet's territory?  Yes.  And by whom?  Who gave you the permission to go there?  Well, Gyolugyet, too.  Okay.  Now, when you went in there did your -- who  told you about the names of that part of the  territory?  Did you know them?  Yes.  I know some of the places.  And were you told the names by somebody from  Gyolugyet's house?  Yes.  Who?  Well, when I ask about it, you know, nobody has been  there, but Mary Anne is the one that really telling me  everything.  Okay.  Because I ask her everything.  And then I talk I think 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  47  37  this man was be there, too, that Kwamoon.  And who held Kwamoon?  Well, that's -- what do you call that man now.  Peter  Robson I think.  Okay.  Now, you trapped -- you trapped in there a  number of seasons?  Yes.  And what was the -- what was the game that you trapped  in there?  Well, there is a lot of martins there and fisher.  Fisher is the most -- I don't know.  That's a nice  place to fish -- to trap fisher, because that's -- you  see, the fisher like that porcupine.  There is a lot  of porcupine there.  Okay.  And did you use to come out in the fall to go  to the to Xsagan Gaksda?  Yes.  And how long would you stay there?  Well, when I am alone I usually come out a little  early before Christmas.  Okay.  And then did you go back again in the --  Yes.  -- the spring?  Go back.  Not in the spring.  I still got my traps  there.  I have to go back after Christmas.  Oh, I see.  Okay.  And then did you trap there in the  spring or the late spring?  Yes.  And did you trap beaver there?  Yes.  I have to go a little further up to trap there.  Okay.  And did you go up to the head of Xsagan Gaksda?  Yes.  Now, was there any place that you stayed when you were  there?  Was there a camp or a cabin that you normally  stayed at?  We got no cabin there, but there is a great big open  place there that they call that Luu lax mihlit.  It's  a wide open place.  I don't know.  Okay.  And that's where you made your camp, is it?  Yes.  Okay.  The snow was so deep there, you know, but we had a  shovel.  We had to make a camp out of tree and the  snow was about that high.  You said that you sometimes went in there with another  person.  You have been using the word "we."  Did you  go there with somebody else? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18 MR.  RUSH  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Yes.  Who did you go there with?  I went with my Uncle Steve Morrison, Charlie Hillis  and there was Pete Muldoe and Jeff Harris.  You went in there with them, too?  Yes.  Okay.  Did you ever stay at Kuldo and go over to  Xsagan Gaksda?  Yes.  I got -- stayed there.  There were houses and cabins in Kuldo that you could  stay in?  Yes.  My uncle Abel, he's got a nice cabin there.  There is a lot of houses there, because there used to  be a village before Uncle Abel.  I even say that  Gyolugyet cabin was still there when I was there.  And did Abel live there all year round?  Yes.  He's stayed.  That's where they dried the fish.  Okay.  I would just like to pause here.  We have run  through to the end of the tape and it's about 4:18.  I  think we should stop here and either change the tape  and carry on or call it a day.  So we will just pause  here.  Thank you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL NOVEMBER 25, 1987 AT  10:00 A.M.) 1  2  3  4  5 EXi  \MINAr  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  39  November 25, 1987.  Ksan Village,  Hazelton, B.C.  3N IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH, (Continued):  All right.  Richard, this is the second day of your  Commission, November 25?  Yes.  And you are still under your affirmation that you gave  to us yesterday?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, you told us at the end of the day  yesterday that you were -- you had gone trapping with  Jeff Harris and Pete Muldoe out on Xsagan Gaksda?  Yes.  Correct.  And did you trap with them for just one season there  or how many times were you out with those two  gentlemen?  Yes.  I was out with them three times, yeah, three  times out with Jeff and Pete.  Okay.  And what was -- did you tell us the game that  you mostly got when you were out with them?  The martin, that's what we really after, and the  fisher.  Okay.  And mink.  Now, did Pete -- do you know did Pete Muldoe trap on  another territory in that area too to your knowledge?  Yeah.  Because he belongs to Wiigyet, so he's got this  place back there, you know, on the line.  Okay.  And you trapped as well with your uncle Abel Tait?  Yes, that's right.  And did you trap -- he was Luus, you told us?  Yes.  And did you trap on Luus' territory with Abel?  Yes.  Okay.  You trapped there -- how many times would you  say that you trapped over there with him?  I have been out with him for quite a few times.  I  don't know how many times.  Okay.  Now, can you remember what time -- when you  last trapped out on Gyolugyet's territory?  What was  the last year that you were there?  The last time I was there is '51.  Okay.  And did you remember why you stopped going out  there, why did you stop trapping that year? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  2 8 MR.  PLANT  2 9 MR.  RUSH:  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  40  Well, see, the reason why I stopped there, you know,  because, you see, the Hudson Bay Company, I got stuff  to take out there like groceries and things like that,  and I was out there all winter.  Oh, gosh, I just  about went through the ground when I got home.  The  price of fur went down so low there is -- I just  actually get nothing for all the furs that I got.  So  that's the reason why I stopped trapping -- everybody,  not just me, the whole works of them.  All right.  We got nothing for what we got there.  Okay.  Now, the next year, the next year, did you go  pole cutting, is that what you did?  Yes.  That's when I start go out and start getting  cedar poles.  And you did that for number of years, did you?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I understand that you also worked at the  coast in the commercial fishery?  Yes.  I was -- when the sockeye season is open I went  down and fished.  You fished the sockeye season for a many number of  seasons, didn't you?  Yes.  About how many, do you remember?  About 15 seasons I was down there.  Okay.  :  15?  Yes.  One five.  And the sockeye season, did that -- did that start in  July or when did it start?  20th of June.  Okay.  And when did it normally end?  When it usually ends the sockeye season, it ends in  the 20th of August.  Okay.  And so that's what you fished for?  Yes.  15 seasons?  Uh-huh.  And were you also trapping at the same time as you  fished?  Was there a period when you --  Yes.  When the fur is still good, you know, the time  in the fall we came back and then we start going out  on our trapline.  Okay.  Now, did you -- did you also fish in the coho  fishery later on in your fishing at the coast?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  41  Okay.  On account of that fur was so low, we don't go out, so  that's why I start fishing coho too.  So coho lasted a little bit longer, did it?  Well, it ends up in September.  Okay.  And when you first started fishing did you fish  by yourself?  Yes.  Did you have a skiff or a little boat of some kind?  Well, at the beginning I used the sailboat.  You know,  it's -- is a way bigger than a skiff.  A sailboat, we  just use the sail to travel around.  Okay.  Now, --  About a year after that's when we start going in the  gas boat.  That's make it better for --  Made it a little easier to get around, did it?  Yes.  After awhile, and then we used those high  speedboat.  Okay.  Go at about 30 or 40 miles an hour.  Richard, when you were fishing the sockeye and you  returned to your home in mid August, did you also fish  the river fishery?  Yes.  That's for our winter supply.  You know, we go  out and fish in the Skeena.  Dry some.  Well, in those  days we haven't got any canning or anything like that.  We just dry them and salt them.  That's the way you used to preserve them?  Yes.  Preserve them.  That's for the winter.  And did you use the fish that you dried and salted,  did you use that when you went trapping?  Yes.  The dry ones, that's the one we used to go out.  Okay.  Because it's lighter to pack around.  So you packed that with you when you went?  Yes.  Did you ever use fish as bait?  Was that ever  something that you did?  Yes.  We have to make that too.  Make the bait?  Yeah.  What did you do with the bait?  Well, we kind of dried them out.  We just laid them  out some place to get that juice out of it, so it will  be lighter to pack around.  Uh-huh.  Okay.  Now, did you fish at a fishing site on  the Skeena River? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  4 3 MR.  PLA1  44  45  A  46  47  42  Yes.  And that's where you obtained your own fish from?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  And do you remember what year it was that Eva  passed on, your first wife, about what time that was?  That's in '51.  Okay.  Her name was -- her last name was Wesley,  wasn't it?  Yes.  And I don't think I asked you this, but you were --  you were living in Eva's family's house?  Yes.  In Glen Vowell?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  Now, your second wife was Grace Sexsmith?  Yes.  Did Grace have a fishing site on the Skeena, too?  Yes.  She really owns one good one.  And do you remember -- do you know where that fishing  site was located?  Yes.  Where is that?  That's up on the other side of -- oh, that's on this  side of the Skeena.  Would that be on the west side?  Yeah.  It's up past Salmon River and Pinenut River,  past that, and there is another little creek on this  side of it.  I don't know how the white fellow.  We  call it Xsa'an sgyoox.  Xsa'an sgyoox?  Yeah.  That's little creek just on this side of it.  Okay.  And then past that, that's where the fishing site is.  That's -- they call that place where they stayed,  that's Xsan.  Xsan?  Xsan.  They call that place.  And that fishing place  they use down below there in the river where they  caught the fish, they call that Ax wat.  Ax wat?  Yeah.  Ax wat.  That's that place where they catch the  fish.  :  May I have the spelling for the name of the place --  not the place where they caught the fish, but Xsan?  Yeah.  That's the place where they live, where they  say they got a smokehouse there.  That's in the  Skeena.  That's why they call it Xsan. 1 MS.  stev:  2  A  3  4  5  6 MR.  RUSH  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  43  \FS:  Xsan, X-s-a-n.  And that fishing place they got down there is Ax wat.  Ax wat, that means no name.  I don't know why they  call it that.  I don't understand.  Ax wat, well, that  means no name.  And that was the name they gave to that fishing site?  Yes.  All right.  Now, you told us that when you were --  when you were on Gyolugyet's territory Mary Anne Jack  told you the names and the places of the -- the places  on the territory?  Uh-huh.  What was Mary Anne's -- Mary Anne's hereditary chief's  name or did she have more than one?  Yes.  Well, what I know that she's got before she got  her mother was Suu wii gos.  Suu wii gos?  Yeah.  And did she she have another name?  Yeah.  After her mother died, you know, her name was  Gadiilo'o.  Well, she got that, too.  So she had Suu wii gos and after her mother died she  had Gadiilo'o?  Yeah.  Okay.  Now, Richard, when you -- you said that you  stopped trapping in Gyolugyet's territory in 1951.  After 1951 did you trap in other places that were  closer to Glen Vowell?  Well, you see, up above that fishing ground of my wife  there, it's also a trapping ground, too, up above --  up on that creek.  They call that creek — let's see  now.  Xsin jihl.  Well, actually they call it Caribou  Creek, I see it's marked on there.  But we call it  Xsin jihl.  Yes.  That's above that -- that's -- that another big creek  up above.  Yes.  And you did some trapping there, did you?  Yes.  And do you know whose territory that was?  Well, that's belongs to my wife, it is registered.  And nobody look after it, so she is the one that take  over.  Okay.  And the trapline keep on going until it hits -- that's  up in the bush, but it hits that, another creek.  That 44  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14 MR.  15  16  17 MR.  18 MR.  19 MS.  2 0 MR.  21  22  23  2 4 MR.  2 5 MR.  26  2 7 MS.  28  2 9 MR.  3 0 MR.  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  There is a lake  there was the  creek we call it -- I don't know what the white call  it, but we call it Xsi magiixoo't.  Q   Xsi magiixoo't?  A   Yes.  Xsi magiixoo't.  And that creek goes a way up.  That's where the trapline goes up.  Q   So you did some trapping there, too?  A   Yes.  Q   Would that be in the '50s and '60s?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  What did you trap there?  A  Well, it mostly martin and fisher,  there, a little lake, a small one.  Q   Okay.  Now --  PLANT:  May I just interrupt to ask the  creek above the fishing ground that did have a name  that the white man called it and I didn't get it.  RUSH:  Xsin something.  PLANT:  Caribou.  STEVENS:  Xsin jihl, Caribou.  PLANT:  Caribou.  I am sorry to trouble you, but I need the  spelling for the creek at the top.  A  We call it Xsin jihl.  That's name of that creek.  It's the Caribou.  RUSH:  It would be the last name.  PLANT:  It keeps on going up a bush that keeps on calling  somebody.  I don't know what's it called.  STEVENS:  Spelling is X-s-i, leave a space, m-a-a-g-i-i-x  underline o-o-'-t.  Thank you.  PLANT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  And you had permission to trap there, did you?  Yes.  Did you trap anywhere else that was close to Glen  Vowell village?  Yes.  There is a lake up there that belongs to  Gitludahl.  Gitludahl?  Yes.  Did you trap there?  Well, I have to get permission from him first.  Yes.  I met him once at the Feast of the Fire Weed Feast,  and then he was talking to me and I mentioned to him  and I ask him, "Can I trap up there?"  He said, "Yes,"  because he's my grandfather.  He said, "You can trap  there any time."  Was the person who held the name at Gitludahl at that 45  1 time was that Moses Morrison?  2 A   Yes.  That's Moses Morrison.  3 Q   Now, Richard, you have sworn an affidavit about the  4 boundaries and geographic landmarks on Gyolugyet's  5 territory?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And as well on Wii 'goob'1's territory at Xsa  8 galliixawit?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And I am going to show you the affidavit that you  11 swore and I am just going to ask you if this is the  12 document that you swore and is this your signature on  13 it.  And just look at the document there and then just  14 go to the last page where you'll see your signature.  15 MR. PLANT:  Before we go further, I think I better advise you  16 that I object to the marking or even the tendering of  17 this affidavit, because there is -- there are  18 statements in it that go beyond the scope of the order  19 of the Chief Justice of October 23, and for that  20 reason I think the affidavit ought not to be put to  21 the witness.  And I would be happy to tell you what  22 the particular sentences are that I think exceed the  23 scope of that order.  24 MR. RUSH:  Go ahead and do that.  25 MR. PLANT:  In paragraph number eight the second sentence which  26 begins "Philip Brown told me," and I object to  27 paragraph 9.  In paragraph 15 the second sentence  28 which begins, "Mary Anne Jack told me," and I also  29 object to paragraph 16.  Paragraph 22, the second  30 sentence which begins, "Mary Anne Jack told me," and I  31 also object to paragraph 23.  And paragraph 29, I  32 object to the second sentence which begins, "Philip  33 Brown told me," and I also object to the paragraph on  34 page ten which is numbered nine, but reads, "I have  35 heard Wii 'goob'1's territory described in the Gitksan  36 Feast as being owned by the House of Wii 'goob'1."  As  37 I say, those sentences go beyond the scope of the  38 October 23 order as I understand it.  And for that  39 reason I would object to the marking of the affidavit  40 or its tendering.  41 MR. RUSH:  Do you take the same position?  42 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  43 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Well, firstly, you have drawn to my attention  44 two points that I want to raise with you and that is  45 obviously on page ten of the affidavit the paragraph  46 number nine which you have referred to should be  47 paragraph 30, and also as well the error with respect 46  1 to the month of the swearing should be November  2 instead of October.  And I have corrected the original  3 copy which I have in my possession.  I've had Miss  4 Meldrum initial that and I have advised you of that.  5 I note your objections.  I am not -- I am going to  6 tender this and I am going to ask this witness to  7 identify the affidavit, and I am going to have it  8 exhibited.  I do want to say, however, that I am not  9 surprised at your position here, because I had some  10 knowledge of that position communicated to me by Peter  11 Grant.  My view of these paragraphs is that they speak  12 to what the witness was told and therefore do not  13 offend what I understand the Chief Justice was trying  14 to get at, which was that the affidavit itself should  15 not be designed to prove the ownership of the  16 territory per se, and that statements that might be  17 found in the affidavit which say that this is proof of  18 the territory, that those -- those statements ought  19 not to be in an affidavit.  In my view these  20 statements simply attest to why Mr. Benson has  21 knowledge, and they go to demonstrating the base for  22 the statement that he makes regarding geographic  23 points and landmarks and boundaries and also go to  24 what I indicated to the Chief Justice was that these  25 statements may also be available to the plaintiffs to  26 argue that inferences can be drawn therefrom about  27 questions of ownership, which I intend to argue.  But  28 I feel that following upon objections that were made  29 during Kweese's commission, that alterations were made  30 and I think satisfactory alterations were made in the  31 affidavit that -- affidavits that were to follow, and  32 I don't think that these provisions are offensive.  So  33 those are my -- those are my submissions on this, and  34 I think we've got enough of our views on the record  35 that a determination can be made in this.  I do,  36 however, want to proceed with the use of this  37 affidavit and I can, I think, if you are concerned  38 about this draw these provisions to Mr. Benson's  39 attention during the course of this examination.  So  40 this is -- this is the way I intend to proceed.  41 Q   Now, Mr. Benson, I just want to ask you if this is  42 your signature on page nine -- page ten of the  43 affidavit, and did you swear the affidavit to be true?  44 A   Yes.  That's true.  45 Q   Okay.  And Shirley Meldrum who was the lawyer who  46 swore in affidavit, she went over this affidavit with  47 you? 47  1 A   Yes.  2 MR. RUSH:   Is that right?  Okay.  Now, I — did you bring your  3 stamp today?  All right.  I would like you to mark  4 that as an exhibit and if you would like to take a  5 moment I'll give you the exhibit that we marked last  6 day to be properly exhibited in the proceedings.  7 MR. PLANT:  I ask that the affidavit be marked for  8 identification until the issue of the objection is  9 ruled upon.  I'm not anxious to interrupt the flow of  10 your examination, but I am concerned about having the  11 document tendered as an exhibit per se in view of the  12 objection.  13 MR. RUSH:  Well —  14 MR. PLANT:  It may be a little more than a matter of form.  15 MR. RUSH:  It is just that.  I think it is a matter of form, but  16 on the other hand because it is a matter of form I  17 can't really say that I have a problem with it.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  I understand —  19 MR. RUSH:  I am prepared to go on that basis.  20 MR. MACAULAY:  I understand that that's what was done in the  21 examination that's proceeding in Smithers at the  22 moment, that a comparable affidavit was marked for  23 identification.  I don't see that that prejudices  24 anybody.  Just go ahead with the examination.  25 MR. PLANT:  Yes, that's right.  It's -- again I am not proposing  26 to interfere with your examination, but I make that  27 request that the affidavit be marked for  28 identification purposes only at this time.  29 MR. RUSH:  Well, as I indicated to you I do agree that it is a  30 matter of form and I don't have a problem with that,  31 so we can proceed on that basis.  32  33 (EXHIBIT 2 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Affidavit of Richard  34 Benson)  35  36 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  37  38 MR. PLANT:  Mr. Rush, may I ask for a copy.  39 MR. RUSH:  Yes, the last page.  40 MR. PLANT:  Well, where is the exhibit stamp?  Perhaps at some  41 time I could --  42 MR. RUSH:  You want the first and the last page?  You want the  43 whole thing?  44 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  I'll pay 25 cents a page.  4 5 MR. RUSH:  25?  46 MR. PLANT:  Well, whatever the going rate is.  47 MR. RUSH:  All right.  We will give you that for 25 cents a 48  1 page.  Sure.  I have no problem.  2 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  3 MR. RUSH:  Now, Richard, on reviewing the affidavit with me, in  the affidavit you indicated that Mary Anne Jack held  the name of Kwamoon?  That's what is said in the  affidavit, but this morning you said --  Yes.  -- it was Suu wii gos?  I made a mistake right there, you see, because at the  time I was -- that Mary Anne didn't hold that name at  all.  That's the name of Kwamoon?  Yes.  She held the name of Suu wii gos?  Yes.  All right.  And Suu wii gos is the name in the House  of Gyolugyet?  Yes.  Now, in the affidavit you talk about the territory of  Xsagan Gaksda at Kuldo creek?  Yes.  And you talk about the -- and that territory, that --  does that territory belong to the House of Gyolugyet?  Yes.  That's your understanding?  Yes.  And as well you talk about the territory at Xsa'an  Lo'op?  Uh-huh.  And that's Xsa'an Lo'op Creek, isn't it?  Yes.  And does that territory belong to Gyolugyet?  Yes.  And you also talk about the territory at Xsihl Guugan?  Yeah.  That's Taylor River?  Uh-huh.  And that also belongs to Gyolugyet?  Yes.  And then you also addressed in your affidavit the  territory of Xsa galliixawit, Sallysout Creek?  Yes.  And that belongs to Wii 'goob'l?  Wii 'goob'l, yes.  That's right.  All right.  And Jessie Sterritt is the person who presently holds  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Q 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  49  the name of Wii 'goob'l?  Yes.  That's right.  The -- I just wanted to ask you, Richard, about the  territory at Xsagan Gaksda, and I think yesterday you  told us that you made your camp at a place called Luu  lah mihl?  Yes.  What is this -- can you tell me what Luu lah mihl is  like, what is that territory like?  It's — it's —  It's -- what did you say it was?  It's that river, that mountain widens right out right  there, you know, and there is no trees there.  It's so  wide.  I think it's been burned before.  That's why  they call it Luu lax mihlit.  Luu lax mihlit.  That  means it's been burned.  Is that where you made your camp?  Yes.  Did you have a tent and did you stay in a tent there  when you --  Yes.  -- were trapping there?  Yes.  The snow was so deep there.  Must be about 16 --  16 foot, about that high and then we -- we got shovels  and then we had to dig it out and it's just like --  just like this place here.  Just like living, it's so  warm in there when we had fire.  Okay.  And were you there with another person at some  time?  Yes.  Who were you there with?  Well, there is one time that I had that old man there.  He knows that place.  Gee, I forgot.  He died long  time ago.  Well, we couldn't remember his name.  All right.  Was that Joseph?  No.  No.  I couldn't remember that.  All right.  All right.  If you can remember later, you  can tell us?  Oh, yeah.  That's Jimmy Johnson.  Okay.  That's his name.  Now, Richard, when you -- you told us that you hunted  in there too.  You hunted I think you said moose?  Yes.  Did you hunt any goat? 50  1 A   Yeah, there is goats there.  2 Q   Did you hunt any groundhog?  3 A   No, not right there at the time, because that place is  4 really hard to get there in the summer.  5 Q   Okay.  6 A   Because up to that creek is really rough.  7 Q   Okay.  8 A  When we do get there we go up on top of the mountain  9 to get there.  10 Q   Okay.  And did you -- is there place where you were up  11 in the summer where you hunted the groundhog?  12 A   Yeah.  Up around Kuldo there.  That's where.  13 Q   Was that on Luus' territory?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Okay.  Now, when you -- when you went out hunting and  16 trapping were there things that you did to prepare to  17 go out to hunt and trap?  I think you told us that you  18 put together dried fish?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Because it was lighter to carry.  Were there other  21 things that you used to do to prepare for the hunt or  22 to prepare for trapping?  23 A   Yes.  We -- that's the reason why we get out there  24 early before the trapping season is open, we prepare,  25 we get out and hunt and dry lots of meat there, so you  26 can preserve all through the winter.  27 Q   Where did you keep the meat that you preserved?  28 A  Well —  29 Q   Did you store it out there?  30 A   Yeah.  31 Q   Where did you store it?  32 A  Well, we always fix a place so the mice will never get  33 there, build it up, and we fixed it so the air can't  34 get in there.  And keep it fresh so it wouldn't mould  35 or anything like that.  36 Q   Okay.  Did you use the fish -- did you use fish or any  37 other kind of a meat for getting ready for the  38 trapping?  39 A   Yes.  4 0 Q   What did you do?  41 A  We get the fish dried and stored it away too.  42 Q   Okay.  There were trails on the trapping and hunting  43 grounds, were there?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Who maintained those trails?  46 A  Well, there was old people, you know, before for years  47 and years they really fixed those trails.  Like 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  51  Gyolugyet's relatives, you know.  Like nephews and  things, those young people like that.  They are the  one that the old man just tell them what to do and  they do it.  They really fix it nice and everything  ready so they wouldn't never get difficulties or  anything like that when they do go through that.  And when you went through, did you do anything to the  trails?  Yes.  What did you do?  Well, if there is any windfalls or anything like that,  we clear that away.  Okay.  My Uncle Abel Tait, he really liked me to go with him  because I always clear his trail real good.  Were there blazes on the trails?  Yeah.  Did you blaze trails too?  No.  The blaze were on there.  They were there, were they?  Yeah.  You told us about a place that you stayed at on the  Nass River just below Win skahl Guuhl.  You said you  camped there with Mary Anne?  Yes.  That was Mary Anne Jack?  Yes.  And Tommy Jack?  Yeah.  Were there cabins located there?  Well, it was one up right -- right at the Win skahl  guuhl, but I want to stay down below there out in the  open by the Nass River.  That's where we fix up the  main camp.  And was that -- was that a better place to camp?  Yes.  Okay.  But there was a cabin up at Win skahl Guuhl,  was there?  Yes.  Okay.  And did you -- when you were out with Mary Anne  Jack, did you store any meat or anything at that time,  fish or other goods that you had?  Well, I tell you -- I tell you how we stored the fresh  meat, you know, that's after the weather start turning  really warm, we got a moose, you know, and there is so  many wolverines there, they pack the whole --  everything out.  So there is a tree.  We stripped that 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  52  tree.  We put a block up a way up on top, and I got my  partner to be way up there, and then we pulled the  meat and it hangs way up there so nothing can get at  it.  You know why we done that?  The fresh meat, the  whole one of the leg of moose hang there and the south  side gets so dry it just really hard and dry, inside  was really fresh.  It stay fresh.  It wouldn't spoil  or anything.  That's the first time that I know that,  because Tommy told us that.  Then --  That was Tommy Jack was it?  Yeah.  When we lowered down after when we going home,  he said okay, go ahead and fry some steak.  Well,  outside it's pretty hard to cut because it's really  dry and hard.  We get that off and then inside was  just fresh.  We had it really -- we fry some steak.  Gee, that was good.  I wanted to ask you about Abel Tait.  You told us that  you spent some time with Abel Tait, your Uncle Luus?  Yes.  Did you go out with him on Luus' territory?  Yes.  Did you trap with him there?  Yeah, I trapped with him.  Okay.  And where did Abel live at the time when you  were trapping on his territory?  Well, they live right in that New Kuldo.  At New Kuldo?  Yeah.  He's got a nice log cabin there.  Okay.  What time of the year were you with him?  Well, that was in the fall.  Okay.  And what kinds of fur animals or fur bearing  animals did you trap with Abel?  That's martin and fisher.  A few weasels and squirrels  and all.  Okay.  And did you -- did you learn some of the names  of the places where you trapped with your Uncle Abel?  Did you learn some of the creek names?  Yes.  Just the creeks.  Can you tell us some of those names that you learned  when you were out with him?  Well, the first big one that is we cross is a canyon  there.  That was called Xsa'an aak.  Xsa'an aak?  Yeah.  As we go further away up and then there is  another one.  That's where we went up, they called it  little creek Xsi t'uuts'xwit.  Xsi t'uuts'xwit? 53  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22 MR.  PLANT  2 3 MR.  RUSH:  2 4 MS.  st eve:  25  2 6 MR.  RUSH:  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Yes.  I don't know.  That means Blackwater.  Blackwater?  Yeah.  So you were with your uncle there, were you?  Yes.  Okay.  And then when you went beyond that, was  there -- was there another creek name that you recall?  We went further way up on top there.  They got a cabin  there.  And —  And then as it goes on further up that mountain,  that's where we hit that -- I didn't go all the way up  there, but he show to me that creek Xsa'an skeexs.  What does that mean?  Well, that means you -- you just go across that creek.  Across the creek?  Yeah.  Xsa'an skeexs means that you go right into the  creek and cross it.  I see.  All right.  That means skeexs, you know, when you go into the  water and then you go across over there.  :  May I have the spelling of that, please.  The last name.  JS:   Xsa'an skeexs, X-s-a-'-a-n-s-k underline e-e-x  underline s.  Maybe I should just get that from you, too.  My  spelling is probably not quite correct.  Was that place that you just named at the head of  Luus' territory?  Yes.  And that was on his trapping line, was it?  Uh-huh.  You told us that Albert Tait, the former Delgamuukw,  that he trapped in that area too?  Yes.  Do you know -- did you see him out there?  Yes.  I was with them twice I think.  And my uncle  told him to take me all the way up there and show me  all the place, but he didn't -- we didn't do that.  We  took busy.  We didn't --.  And did Albert Tait spend a lot of his time up there,  do you know?  Yes.  He goes up there, him and his brother.  Okay.  Do you know a lake called T'am similoo'oo?  Yes.  Is that -- is that near to Luus' territory?  Yes.  It's the trapline goes here and T'am similoo'oo 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  54  is just up here.  Whose territory is the lake T'am similoo'oo, whose is  that in?  Well, from Kisagas that's Waiget's.  It's in Waiget's territory?  Yeah.  Now, are there stories about the late T'am similoo'oo,  about the power of the lake?  You needn't tell us the  stories.  I just wanted to know if there are stories  among the Gitksan people about this lake?  Yes, it is.  That's why my uncle wouldn't allow me to  go down when I'm alone.  When I -- he told me that  that's your godfather's place up there, he said, so he  wouldn't say nothing too if he see you go on there.  "That's Waiget, so don't you ever get down on that  lake, you alone," he said.  Did the lake have some extraordinary powers?  Well, he told me that sometimes when you walk on that  lake it's all -- well, I'll tell you what my uncle was  telling me.  You see, one time in the winter they get  on that lake and they walk and it's not a very big  lake.  It's -- you know, that's funny.  I didn't  believe him, but he told me it's true.  You get on  that lake and then he walks and he walk for about an  hour and it still looks like that places just -- they  don't gain anything on walking.  So one of them holler  back there, he said, chopping the ice.  So they chop  the ice and they get through.  Said, okay, every one  of us will drink that.  So they, each one, they drink  it and then this -- and they get up and there is a  stick, one step and they are already in the bush.  That's why he wouldn't allow me to go down that.  I see.  Don't you ever get down there, he said, because that  is something funny goes on there and there is another  bunch that from Kisagas that walks on there and they  heard some explosion.  All of a sudden the water  starts coming over the ice and they don't know what to  do.  So there is -- they just get that water and drink  it.  After they all drink it that water just  disappeared.  There is no water on the ice any more.  Gee, that's why I keep looking down on that lake.  I  wonder whether I should go down.  You never did go down?  No.  Who told you these stories?  Well, my uncle did. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  55  This is Abel, Abel Tait?  Yes.  And the other from Kisagas, that's Waiget.  Waiget told you?  Yeah.  Now, when you were -- when you were at Kuldo with your  Uncle Abel, did you do any fishing at Kuldo?  Yes.  Where did you fish?  Fish right down in the canyon there.  And how -- what kind of gear did you use?  Well, they were using this gillnet.  And the fish that you caught?  Sockeye.  And what time of the year was that?  Well, that's early in September.  Okay.  Before trapping start.  Okay.  Now, when you were out trapping when you were  up on Gyolugyet's territory, for all the years that  you were up there, did you ever run into or meet any  white people?  No.  Did you ever meet any white people when you were  trapping with Abel Tait over on your -- on Luus'  territory?  Well, at the time the telegraph line was on.  That was closer to the telegraph line, was it?  Yeah.  Kuldo is right on the telegraph line.  Yes.  Did you see -- did you see white people there?  Yes.  Okay.  The one that looks after the telegraph line.  But when you went out with Luus on his territory, were  there any -- any white people out there?  No.  Not on his.  Okay.  And when you were up on Wii 'goob'l's territory  at Xsa galliixawit, I think you said with Philip and  Albert Brown?  Yes.  Did you ever see any white people up there?  No.  Okay.  Now, did you take -- when you trapped in the  areas that we've mentioned, Gyolugyet's areas and in  Wii 'goob'l's territory, did you bring some food back  or meat back to your home in Glen Vowell?  Did you  ever bring meat home?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  56  Okay.  If one when we got lots of beaver, you know, and we  fix it up and hang it up and dry it really good.  And  that's the only meat that we bring back home if we got  enough.  Did you ever use any of that in the Feast?  Well, yes.  How did you use it?  Well, we cut it up and then cook it when the Feast is  on.  And then whoever got that, well, he's the  that's serving it to the people that, because that not  very many people now that use that beaver meat,  because it's -- I like it myself, because I live on it  as a trapper.  You like it?  Yes.  And do you still use it today?  Yeah.  If I got it.  Like when I feast in Kispiox, you  know, somebody serve that dry beaver meat, you know.  And the people, the young people sitting over there,  they don't like it.  Asking if I like it so they give  it all to me.  So the beaver meat is served today in the Feast?  Yes.  And some people --  Whoever got it, yes.  Yes.  Okay.  And some people like yourself like it?  Uh-huh.  And some people don't, apparently?  Yeah.  Okay.  Richard, was there any moose meat, was that  ever served in the Feast?  Yes.  Did you use to do that?  Uh-huh.  And was that served out by you and other members of  your house?  Yeah.  Okay.  Groundhog, were the hides of the groundhog used  at the Feast?  Well, that's -- that was way before the money and the  white people comes around.  That's what — that's what  they really fix those skins.  I didn't see it, but my  mother was just telling me.  Why I asked my mother  they called -- he's got some money at the Feast.  I  said, "X gwiigwii."  That's what she said.  X gwiigwii? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  57  Yeah.  "Why did you call that x gwiigwii," I said?  Well, then he told me about the hide of that  groundhog.  That's what they use for money.  Like what  they use money today, you see, when each person has  piles and piles of skins.  As when they start  distributing around all amongst their chiefs, you  know, their skins, like they do with the money today.  That's how I understand what that x gwiikxw means.  You see, they use that skin before, before the monies  comes around, they use that -- we call that groundhog  week.  The groundhog is called gwiikxw?  Yes.  Today the gwiikxw, that is that used at the Feast  today?  Not very -- no, I don't think so, because not very  many people get in that, you know, because -- .  There is money used at the Feast today, is there?  Yes.  That's what they use now.  And was there a Gitksan word for money?  Did they have  a word that was used?  Well, when they use it that's daala.  Daala?  Yeah.  You see, if I received that money from the one  that put up the Feast and I got it, well, we call it  xdaala.  That's a different pronunciation.  Xdaala.  That's the money that I receive from --.  Now, you told us that Suu wii gos, the name Suu wii  gos was held by Mary Anne Jack?  Yes.  And when Mary Anne died in 1959, I think it was, who  took her name?  Do you remember who took the name of  Suu wii gos?  I don't know, because, you see, I supposed to take  that name because Mary Anne fix that up way ahead of  time that's for herself she happen to die.  She put up  a totem pole in Kispiox and she paint everything for  that name, and then she told me, "If I happen to die,"  she said, "and you going to take that."  But I  wasn't -- I wasn't home.  I was way out in Golden,  B.C.  That's where I was working.  The reason why they  take me over there in Golden because, you see, I  really understand the cedar.  You worked in Golden for awhile?  Yes.  That's about five years I was over there.  And that's when the name passed on?  Yes.  That's when the name passed on. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  And do you remember who took the name after Mary Anne  Jack?  I think her daughter Violet.  Okay.  And is the name -- is Violet still living  today?  Yes.  And has the name been passed again to your knowledge?  Has Suu wii gos gone to somebody else?  I don't really know.  Maybe Violet still hold  because -- and she's got two or three daughters, they  got those other names, too.  Okay.  Now, you told us about being with Tom Sampson  in -- out at T'am nihl janda?  Yes.  Do you remember you said you were there I think about  five times with him?  Yes.  And the last time was in 1943 and that's when you  showed us the photographs?  Yes.  And there is a song about T'am nihl janda that you  know and you know the story that goes with the song, I  think?  Yes.  I don't -- my uncle didn't know how to sing it,  but it's really important.  Can you tell us the story that goes with the T'am nihl  janda song?  Well, that's in the midwinter when they living there,  you know.  They live there for so many years that I am  going and that winter they starting to run out of  everything.  They start rationing themselves with  little what they had, because that's in the midwinter.  Even the hunters goes out every day, but they can't  get anything.  Pretty soon they had a place right  there, you know, at T'am nihl janda, the whole family  are living there.  They just about going to starve  very soon.  They know that.  Just those young people  that they are hunting, the one that rationed  themselves with something to eat.  And then one day  there is some really old people there too and these  young people saw something coming, and they see it  looks like -- when it's comes closer it looks like a  wolf but it looks kind of funny.  Pretty soon as that  wolf come closer to that where they living, he gets  down on the ground and he starts crawling on the  ground, you know.  And his head looks funny because --  and young people get up there with the bow and arrow. 59  1 They are going to -- and the old man said, "No, don't  2 touch him.  Let him come.  See what's going to  3 happen."  So as he come right to the door and that  4 wolf open -- his head was swelling that big and that  5 wolf opened his mouth and as soon as he opened it I  6 see the great big bone was sticking right in there.  7 That's why he come for help for those people.  Well,  8 when he opened that mouth and that old man speak up  9 again, he said -- they told him what they see, that  10 old man said, "Pull it out.  Grab it."  So they grab  11 it and pull it out.  He must have bite something what  12 he was eating and that big bone was stuck in there.  13 They can't -- that's why he come to that camp.  After  14 that they got that out and that wolf was wagging his  15 tail and then he turned around and then he goes out.  16 And he disappeared.  And these people still live  17 there.  They got nothing whatsoever, because the snow  18 is so deep and they can't get anything.  So one day  19 they heard that wolf towards the lake again.  They  20 heard the wolf, you know, how the wolf howls like  21 that.  And pretty soon that wolf come in closer to the  22 camp again.  He keep on howling.  He come right close.  23 They saw him howling and he turn around and he goes  24 back to the lake and that old man speak up again, "Get  25 all your snow shoes and everything on," he said, "and  26 go and follow that wolf, see what's going to happen."  27 So these young people, they strong enough, so they  28 start following.  As soon as they hit that lake they  29 see something black laying way on over there and  30 another one, pretty soon there is about four -- about  31 six of them they saw.  So the wolf is going right by  32 there and he keep on looking back and howl.  So these  33 young people now they see a fresh caribou just been  34 killed laying right there.  There is another one over  35 there.  There is another one.  Oh, they must have get  36 about six of them.  Because that wolf paid them back  37 what he done to them, because they pull that big bone  38 out.  That's why all the wolves chase this caribou on  39 that lake and kill them on -- that's for them.  That's  40 how they living.  So that's -- and that old man there  41 make a song out of that, because they are ready to be  42 starved to death.  They got nothing else to live for.  43 So he's -- the old man made a song.  My uncle knows  44 that.  He used to sing it once in awhile.  They call  45 that Limx oo'y.  4 6       Q   Limx oo'y?  47       A   Yes.  Limx oo'y.  That means that's the song they use at  died  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  60  when they weeping or mourning over something  really -- they used that when the big sim oogit died,  they call that Limx oo'y.  That means you singing and  mourning and weeping at the same time.  That's what it  means, Limx oo'y.  And —  That's where that -- that's how that Limx oo'y comes  out on that Kweese's territory.  I don't understand  why Niist's himself didn't even know that song.  But Abel, you say your uncle knew the song?  Yes.  And the next old man that died that's from  Kispiox, that's Walter Latz, he died long time ago,  but he's the one that really know that song.  You heard him sing it?  Yes.  Did you hear Abel sing it too?  Yes.  Abel, that's Abel Tait, isn't it?  Yes.  Uh-huh.  Now, you were with Tom Sampson, did Tom tell you about  this or did --  Yeah.  That's -- that's him was telling me the story,  but he didn't know how they sing, you know, how the  tune or how that Limx oo'y.  He didn't know the tune or how to sing it?  Yeah.  But he know the story.  That's where it come  from, he said.  And that story was from T'am nihl janda?  Yes.  All right.  And that was Tom Sampson who told you  that?  Yes.  Tom's passed on now, has he?  Yes.  What name did Tom hold?  I think it's Gibaawm gyat.  Gibaawm gyat?  Yes.  And is that name associated with T'am nihl janda?  Yes.  And the place where the photographs where you and Tom  were located in photograph --  Yes.  -- in the photograph on the top of Exhibit 1, that's  close to T'am nihl janda?  Yes.  Okay. 61  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  2 3 MR.  24  2 5 MR.  2 6 MS.  2 7 MR.  2 8 MS.  2 9 MR.  3 0 MS.  31 MR.  32 MR.  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41 MR.  42  43  44  45  4 6 MR.  47  A   That's the small lake right there.  Just up.  I like  to stay there.  That's why I made a camp there.  That  little -- that small little lake I told you that  before, it's -- they call that Ant kii gee'n.  Q   Yes.  You said that yesterday I think.  A   Yes.  Q   Richard, Tom Sampson, you said yesterday was the  brother of Charlie Sampson?  A   That's right.  Q   Did Charlie hold the name of Niist?  A   Yes.  Q   He was Niist when you were there with Tom?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  A   Niist was there sometimes, too.  But he just go by us.  Q   He was going somewhere else, was he?  A  Well, right -- there is another creek that from here  to that lake, it goes into Nass River, and Charlie  goes across there.  I guess you show it on the map.  They call it Xsi luu wit wiidit.  That's where he  goes .  Q   Now, did you --  PLANT:  I think I better ask for a spelling of that last  creek.  RUSH:  Very well.  STEVENS:  Xsi luu wit wiidit.  PLANT:  Yes.  STEVENS:  X-s-i space 1-u-u space w-i-t space w-i-i-d-i-t.  PLANT:  w-i-i?  STEVENS:  d-i-t.  PLANT:  Thank you.  RUSH:  Just pause for a second.  I would like to get that  spelling as well if I could, Fern, please.  Q   Would you like to take a short break.  Perhaps now  would be appropriate time to take a short break.  I  thought maybe we could take ten minutes and then go to  12:30.  Would that be all right with you, Richard --  A   Yes.  Q   -- if we took ten minutes and then went to 12:30?  A   Uh-huh.  RUSH:   All right.  Let's do that, please.  Thank you,  Wayne.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  RUSH:  Q   All right.  Richard, I am showing you the photographs 1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  62  which we entered as an exhibit yesterday and on the  photographs you drew my attention to the fact that a  number of the people were on snow on the ice here  and --  Right here?  Yes.  Do people use snow shoes when you went out  trapping?  Yes.  And —  They all —  And when you used the snow shoes did you use them  yourself?  Yes.  Did you make snow shoes?  Yes, I made them.  What were the snow shoes made out of?  Well, I made it out of the vine maple.  Okay.  And was vine -- vine maple, was that  particularly good for snow shoes?  Yes.  What was good about it?  Well, you see, you don't use those -- those small  ones, you know.  If I got a vine maple that big, you  know, and start splitting them, that's what we use to  make it lighter.  And it doesn't matter if that's  thin, you step through the snow and it bends like that  and it doesn't break.  It was flexible, was it?  Yes, it is .  Did the vine maple come from the territories where you  were trapping?  Yes.  In some places.  There is a special place where  you get -- where we get that.  We got to know how to  pick them out.  But those small one, you know, they  are really nice, about that size.  You are showing --  You split it in half, that's why we don't use those.  They are really good to handle.  But it does -- it's  not so flexible at all.  When it goes like that, it  breaks, if you had a big heavy pack on you.  You were showing that the vine maple that you used you  described it.  Was that about an inch and a half  across?  No.  Those big ones like that.  Bigger than that?  Big one like that would make about -- oh, a pair of  scissors because we split it. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  63  I see.  It looked to be about three and a half inches  across?  Yes.  Okay.  All right.  I wanted to ask you about the --  did you have a trapline which was registered with the  government?  Yes.  And who -- did somebody have that before you?  My brother Chris did register that Xsagan Gaksda.  Yes.  I didn't know he registered it.  They phoned me.  Who phoned you?  Chris.  And what did he do with that registration?  Well, he phoned me and he asked me if I can accept --  he had it registered, but he's going to transfer it  over to me.  Okay.  And did that happen?  Yes.  And you had it transferred over to you, did you?  Yes.  Why did you have it transferred over to you?  Well, Chris, you see, his father had a trapper's  ground just above here, Ironside Creek.  He's got a  big -- that Indian name up there is 'Wii luu wax.  That's that creek.  Well, Chris wants that, that  belongs to his father.  That's what he told me over  the phone.  He said, "I'm going take over my father's  place," he said, "that's why I got to turn this over  to you."  But we have to come down -- "you have to  come down," he said, "to the Indian office and then we  going to fix that up."  So I was down that day and  transfer everything from me.  Over to you?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  And when you did that when you actually  transferred it over to you, what did you think -- why  did you have it transferred to you?  Why did you do  that?  Well, the reason why we talk about it is to have it  registered, that's to protect everything on that  ground.  Now, you had -- you had permission to be on that  ground?  Yes.  Okay.  And who gave you the permission again to be  there? 64  1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22 MR.  PLANT  2 3 MR.  RUSH:  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Like I told, it was that man that's got that place  was -- it was Mathias Wesley.  I was so young that  time that man died and I didn't know the name that he  holds at the time.  Okay.  Do you know Esther -- did you know Esther  Holland?  Yes.  And did Esther hold the name of Gyolugyet?  Yeah.  Were you on that territory with her permission?  Yes.  When she did talk to me Esther had a son, too.  That's George Holland.  And Esther told me, "You got  to come now," she said, "and then do the best you can  to protect Georgie, too, that's your brother."  That's  what she said.  "You got to do -- you understand  everything on that ground.  So you got to stand with  him. "  Okay.  But Georgie isn't -- I don't know where he lives.  He's working for something.  All right.  :  I didn't hear the last part of that.  He's working for something, I think --  I don't know where --  You are not sure where George is working?  Yeah.  He's -- he's a veteran.  He's a returned  soldier for the last time.  I want to ask you about something else now that I  think you have some knowledge about and that is you  use certain medicines today, don't you?  You told me  about these?  Yes.  And one of the medicines you use I think is  malgwaasxw?  Yes.  Well, you see when you first asked me about it  you asked me about this because how did the Indians  get their medicines for years and years ago before the  doctors ever come around.  And right today I still  couldn't really understand because they really know  how to use their food, what kind of food so they  can -- if they had something like diarrhea and things  like that, and constipated and they got some special  things they use, you know, that's something that I  can't understand because I thought they don't know  nothing, but they know better than me how to protect  themselves.  So that's what I come to what you said 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  65  now about that.  About the medicines?  That medicine.  You see, that we don't use that  malgwaasxw very much because it's the one that we  really use is that Devil's Club, the one that I saw.  Okay.  I am going to ask you about Devil's Club, too,  but I think you use malgwaasxw too, don't you?  Yes.  Okay.  Will you tell me how you -- how you used  malgwaasxw?  Well, I use it in lots of different ways.  Sometimes I  cut it up, you know, the way they teach me and I boil  it for maybe four hours.  If I want to really tense  myself when I took a bath, well, I maybe use through  the half cup where I am going to go in and bath.  And what does it do when you put the half cup in the  bath water, what effect does that have?  Well, as a trapper you see that anything is on me that  malgwaasxw will cleanse everything.  It will cleanse everything?  Yes.  And I'll be clean and keep on using that.  That  will make me very lucky.  Okay.  I just wish anything that I am going to get after I  keep on using then I'll get it.  Now, did you use it when you were trapping, did you  use it --  Yes.  -- with you on your trapping?  Yes.  What did you -- how did you use it then?  The same thing.  Well, in other words, it's like what  you said.  We can like that too.  You can --  If there is some places what you call haunted house,  you always hear something or else somebody touch you  or anything, not all the house, but there is one place  there.  Well, you go and light that malgwaasxw, you  lit it and smoke the whole world.  And what does that do?  Well, that's everything will be gone.  Anything you  hear is all disappeared.  It happens right here not  too long ago.  My granddaughter, there is somebody,  young fellow that hung himself then, didn't know that  down the basement up here and that's -- they rent that  house.  And my granddaughter was -- she said, "I don't  like to live in that house.  I always hear something 1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  66  going around.  There is nobody there."  She said, "I  got that malgwaasxw."  She take this and lit it and  that's what she did.  Did that -- did that --  "I don't hear anything any more," she said, "so you  done a good job."  That's what she told me.  Okay.  Richard, did you use -- did you use the  malgwaasxw with your guns at any time?  Yes.  You see, if I shoot a deer or moose or anything  like that, and then they really superstitious.  They  will call it haa'wahlxw, you see.  If a young girl or  young woman happens to be having her monthly period,  you know, and then see either that meat that I shoot  with my gun and then after that then I go out hunting  with that gun again, then I can't hit nothing with it.  Even if I do hit it the animal wouldn't die.  He just  get away from me.  Then I find out that gun, some of  the woman must have eat the meat that I shot.  So I  boil that malgwaasxw, you know, I boil that thing.  Then I poured through the -- through the gun and I rub  everything outside of it.  After that then I cleaned  it and oil it up and that gun is better than it is  before.  If I see something then I hit it.  Gee,  that's really something.  Where did you get the malgwaasxw from?  We get it up on the mountain.  Okay.  And —  You know how to find it?  Yes.  And another thing that I just find out, you  know, that's in Moricetown, that's about two, three  years ago, you know, when you -- the malgwaasxw has  got those really tough roots, you can't pull them out  or any -- and that man told me, "We got some sharp  something, you know, to get that," and he said, "You  can't use that.  If you use that," he said, "your  malgwaasxw will be worth anything at all."  Because  you cut everything what the malgwaasxw has got.  So we  made the stick.  That's what we use to get that out.  You use a stick to dig the --  Yeah.  -- malgwaasxw roots out?  I made the really -- well, I use the vine maple, when  it's dry it can't break.  That's how we dig them out.  Okay.  You talked about Devil's Club?  Yes.  You use Devil's Club, too?  You do? 67  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   How do you use it today?  What are the ways you use  3 it?  4 A  Well, sometimes I chew it, but it's not a very  5 pleasant to chew it, because it's really strong.  6 Q   How else do you use it?  7 A  Well, you see, we -- the best thing that I do when I  8 took the outside off and then scrape that what it's  9 got in there.  When I got enough, well, I boil that,  10 too.  Well, if somebody's got some kind of a  11 tuberculosis, you know, that's what you call that  12 stuff, that balsam, that's the skin and it's got that  13 pitch in there.  We got the bark and then that's what  14 we boil with the Devil's Club.  15 Q   You boil the pitch from a balsam tree --  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   — with the Devil's Club?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And you boil that together.  And --  20 A   Boil it together or, well, there is one I did made it  21 not too long ago, I --  22 Q   What do you do with it after it's boiled together.  Do  23 you drink it or do you --  24 A   Yes.  Well, you boil -- I boil it for eight hours.  25 You got to watch it.  And then you put it in a real  26 clean jars after.  That's the way you keep it.  And  27 then keep it in a cool place.  Every once -- well, I  2 8 can drink maybe a cup.  29 Q   And does it make you feel good?  30 A   Yes.  In a day.  31 Q   Okay.  All right.  Where do you get the Devil's Club  32 from?  33 A  Well, they're out in the bush.  34 Q   And you know how to find it, did you?  35 A   Yes.  They call this creek across here Xsi gwin  36 huu'umst.  That's the only thing you see.  That's what  37 they call Devil's Club, huu'umst.  38 Q   Is that called Devil's Club Creek?  39 A   Yeah.  That's Cedar Creek across here.  40 MR. PLANT:  Sealy Creek?  41 A   Yeah.  42 MS. SAMPSON:  Cedar.  4 3 MR. RUSH:  44 Q   Cedar Creek?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 MR. PLANT:  Oh.  47 A   Yeah.  That's Cedar. 1 MR. RUSH:  2 Q   Do you sometimes grind this Devil's Club into a  3 powder?  4 A   Yes.  When it's really dry.  It's just like powder.  5 Q   Okay.  6 A   Like I said yesterday, you know, I was surprised when  7 I visit that Canyon City in Nass River.  This woman is  8 almost a white woman.  She's half-breed, but she's  9 married to the white man.  They had a little store.  10 He goes back in the room there and pulls it out and he  11 put this in front of me.  You know what this one is?  12 And I looked at it, you know.  I think that's that dry  13 Devil's Club.  Yeah, that's right.  And she told me  14 the same thing, too, what I said how to make the  15 medicine out of it.  16 Q   And the Devil's Club, does that help to cure diseases?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And does it help keep you well?  19 A   Uh-huh.  That's correct.  20 Q   Okay.  Now, you also told me about another kind of  21 root that is used as a medicine and I think  22 sometimes -- well, you tell me about this root.  It's  23 used as a kind of tea.  Do you know what I'm talking  24 about?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   What's it called?  What's the Gitksan name for that?  27 A   Gan dax do'oxt.  2 8 Q   And where do you get that?  2 9 A  Well, it grows -- it grows out in the swamp.  30 Q   And what does it taste like?  31 A   It doesn't taste like tea, but we use it as tea.  In  32 other words, it's more medicine than tea.  But we use  33 it.  That's what we drink.  That's all I drink when I  34 was in Mezziadan there.  We hardly used the regular  35 tea.  36 Q   And are there places where you can get this today?  37 A   Yeah.  38 Q   You use the leaves as well?  39 A   Uh-huh.  40 Q   Okay.  41 A  Well, just what we -- I used to have -- I still got  42 some at home there.  But I don't know where it is.  43 Q   Okay.  You said that you -- that the Devil's Club was  44 sometimes mixed with the pitch from a balsam tree?  45 A   Uh-huh.  46 Q   And where would you get these, the pitch from the  47 balsam tree? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  69  Well, some of those big ones, you know, we got, we  just take the bark right off.  And then take the pitch out of that?  No.  We just throw the whole works in the pot.  Oh, I see.  And boil it with the Devil's Club.  Okay.  Did you ever use a sweathouse or a sweatlodge?  Yes.  How did you use that?  Well, you see, the reason why we used that, you know,  that's -- well, I'll tell you.  You see, that I was  bed-ridden for two years.  Yes.  Well, that's -- that's why they put me in.  I don't  know how many times for.  And that's the reason why  I'm still around today.  How did they make the sweatlodge?  Well, you see, my father build it some kind on the  side hill and ground and dig that out and cover it  real good.  And they built a great big fire outside  there and lots of rocks and I keep on -- when those  rocks that really turning red, that's when they get  and keep pulling it in and pile it on one side there  and then you get in there, oh, first time I can't  stand it when I get in there.  It's too hot.  It just  like that's steam bath.  When you start sweating, I  was surprised, you know, the way I was laying.  When I  get up when I was through, there was water where I was  laying.  That's from the sweat.  That get out of my  body.  When I get up, I didn't know it, it was dark in  there.  I said to my father, "Where the health water  come from?"  "It's from your body," he said.  And was this designed to help you?  Yes.  That's what helped me.  Then I was cured --  Okay.  -- for that rheumatism that I got.  And then after  that I didn't expect I was going to run.  And after  that I was in the soccer team.  Oh, gosh, I can run  faster than anybody else.  Well, on account of that  it's really good.  It cleanse you.  It clean  everything out of you.  Yes.  Did your father use the sweatlodge?  Yes.  He used it, too.  Were the sweatlodges built in the territories when you  were out trapping?  Yes.  Sometimes when he -- when he wants to do it he  go and make it himself. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  70  And the heat came from the hot rocks that were --  Yes.  -- heated in the fire?  Uh-huh.  Gee, I can't stand.  I got to stick my head  out.  You keep your head out?  To breathe, you know.  It's so --.  Okay.  But you got to drink cool water once in awhile.  All right.  Now, Richard, there is something I didn't  ask you about earlier that I'd like to ask you about  now and that is the taking of berries from the  territory.  Were there any berries on the territories  where you trapped?  Yes.  Mezziadan it was, there is really lots of  berries, because it's been burned long time ago.  That's right after I was born.  It's been burned.  Just right around the lake.  What kind of --  Huckleberries.  And did you eat these berries?  Yes.  Did you ever drink the juice of the berries?  Yes.  Well, you see, well, mother picked that, you  know.  My father makes that.  Those really nice.  There is no cedar there, but there is balsam.  They  make it about this wide, you know.  And about ten foot  long.  That's -- they use to dry that.  Well, you see,  they have to squeezing everything and they get the  juice out of it.  They leave it there and then they  take the juice out of it and after that they get all  the -- they boil it little bit and then they spread  it.  You know, those -- how wide those great big skunk  cabbage is.  They fix that so they lay it on there.  That's where they put the berries and they got fire  underneath.  Well, the mother used -- got to stay  there and watch it all the time.  Even at night.  When  that is dry, gee, it tastes good.  You know the juice?  They don't know anything about when the juice turns  sour, you know, and start fermenting, they just throw  it away.  And then after that when the European people  comes around, you know, and they see that it's  starting to get sour and they teach those Indians it's  good.  It turns into alcohol.  That's we find out  after.  And, gee, that spoils everything.  All those  and they start making that after that.  And the whole  bunch starting to get drunk on it.  Now they don't 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  71  throw it away anymore.  Oh, my, that's --  Richard, did you take any berries or pick any berries  up on Gyolugyet's territory or on Luus' territory?  No.  There is some berries in Kuldo, but I always get  there pretty late and things like that.  Did —  My uncle told me they used to go up there and pick it.  That was — was that Abel?  Abel Tait?  Yes.  Uh-huh.  Yes.  Did your wife Eva pick berries and dry berries  while you were trapping?  Yes.  At Mezziadan.  Okay.  She was with me there.  She was with you at Mezziadan?  Yes.  Okay.  My mother teach her how to do when we start drying.  When you were with your second wife, Grace Sexsmith,  did Grace prepare berries?  No, not berry -- she just preserved them, that's all.  She preserved the berries?  Yes.  How did she preserve them?  Well, they got them in a jar and boil them.  And then you used the berries later in the year?  Yes.  Okay.  And do you remember what kind of berries she  preserved?  Well, that's the huckleberries.  And were the berries used at the Feast at all?  Yes.  Were they given out at the Feast?  Yes.  They are served all over.  Gee, I was surprised  in Kispiox, they got so many of that, gallons and  gallons and, oh, the whole --  Were you surprised that they had gallons of berries?  Yeah.  Gallons.  Maybe ten or maybe sometimes 50  gallons.  Were served at the Feast?  Yes.  When was this, was this recently?  Yeah.  In Kispiox.  Was it this year?  Yeah.  Was it at a Feast?  Yeah.  Maybe she was there, too. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  72  Well, do you remember at whose Feast this was at where  they served the gallons of berries?  Well, I don't know, because there is so many.  The  Fireweed Feast, that's when they got the most.  And  also Gibuu, too.  There is a lot of Gibuu there and  lots of Fireweed.  Gibuu are the Wolf clan?  Yes.  And --  All right.  And Fireweed Clan.  The same as the Killer Whale.  And in this Feast were these gallons of berries  distributed to all of the guests?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I want to ask you another question about  the medicines, Richard.  Did your -- you've told us  about the curing power of some of the natural  medicines.  Have you been vaccinated yourself?  No.  Why don't you -- why don't you get a vaccination?  Well, the reason why I dislike that because I was  vaccinated one very early in the fall.  That was the  first I am not supposed to get sick of anything, but  that winter I was sick all through the winter.  I  couldn't hardly do anything.  Well, next fall the  nurse come around again.  I said, "No, you are not  going to touch me this time."  I am not supposed to  get sick last winter but I got sick.  Somebody -- I  have to call somebody to get my wood and fix  everything else I do.  Because I couldn't hardly do  anything.  When you take the natural medicines do you get sick?  No.  But I make my own medicine.  That's -- I stay on  that, so --.  Okay.  Now, was there a time, Mr. Benson, when you  were working with the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs,  when you did things with the Union of B.C. Indian  Chiefs?  Uh-huh.  Was that in the 1970s?  Yes.  Were you a delegate to the Union of B.C. Indian  Chiefs?  Yes.  And did you do some travelling when you were with  them?  Yes.  I travelled quite a bit.  Where did you travel? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  73  Well, -- well, right at the beginning when we started  out.  Do you remember what year that was?  That's in '70 -- I just forget now.  That's when we  produced the land claim in Ottawa.  Yes.  And I was with them.  Just the two of us.  There is  Howard Wale and me, that's from here.  Yes.  We went to Vancouver and went to Ottawa.  What did you do when you got to Ottawa?  Well, we got to meet Mr. Trudeau.  And what did you tell him?  Well, what anyone has start talking, talking to them  before they speak, I don't know where that man come,  the old old man and the next one was young.  That's  how they put it up in that parliament, and there is  some new women and pretty soon they get down -- pretty  soon they get right down to the smallest little child.  What is that means, they not going to stop and keeping  on and on and on until get right down to baby.  When you were there with Mr. Trudeau, did you say  something to him or did the people you were with say  something to him about the land, about your land?  Yes.  They just produce him there, the land claim.  Richard, would you just repeat what you said.  We  didn't understand what you said.  Just now.  There was  hardly -- you said there was hardly something and I  didn't understand you.  Maybe if I just ask my  question again.  What did you say to Mr. Trudeau?  Well, I didn't say -- there is only one speaker there.  Okay.  What did the speaker say?  Well, what -- right at the beginning before he speak,  he was speaking to Mr. Trudeau as the father -- well,  he was speaking to him as he was speaking to God that  looks after everything.  He was speaking right there  before he say something and Mr. Trudeau was sitting  there.  And my question was:  Did you -- did that person speak  about the land?  Yes.  All right.  And do you remember what he said about the  land?  No.  Okay.  Everything was on the paper that he give to Mr.  Trudeau. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 MR.  RUS1  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  74  I see.  So he gave him a paper, did he?  Yes.  He give him, that's the land claim.  Okay.  All right.  And did you -- did you travel in  the province here in British Columbia with the Union  of B.C. Indian Chiefs?  Yes.  All over.  Why were you travelling with them?  Well, the same thing, about the land claim.  Okay.  When was that?  What year was that?  That's in '70, '71.  We went to Penticton, Kamloops.  Boy, I get tired travelling.  I don't -- my wife says,  "When are you going to stay home?"  I just came home  and then I got to go again.  Vancouver, Victoria,  Prince Rupert, Prince George.  Oh, we travelled all  over.  Only once that we got into the Fort St. John.  And when you travelled this time when you were  travelling then, was that about the land claim too?  Yes.  All right.  All the time.  All right.  I'd like to propose that we adjourn now.  I for the most part think I have completed my direct.  I have at the moment no other questions.  I'd like to  review that over lunch hour.  But my present  anticipation is that I will conclude.  So I propose  that we adjourn now and then I'll determine whether I  have any further questions.  If I do it will be a few.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  All right.  Thank you.  I have obtained copies of  Exhibit 2 for identification, which is Mr. Richard  Benson's Affidavit sworn on November 16, 1987.  And I  would just give you copies, Mr. Macaulay, Mr. Plant.  Those are what you requested this morning.  And with  respect to the photographs, I am advised by my office  that we are having positives made of the photographs  and I'll forward those to you and I hope with your  permission we can mark these as Exhibit 1 in the  proceedings or Exhibit 1A, B and C as the case may be  to the proceedings.  They will be better copies of  ones that we now have in photocopy form.  And with  that I have concluded my direct-examination of Mr.  Benson.  And now, Richard, if you will, you will answer the  questions of Mr. Plant who is here.  Yes. 75  1 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  Mr. Benson, I understand that you are a member of the  House of Luus?  Correct.  Yes.  And you are a chief in that House?  Yes.  And the head of that House is the person who holds the  name Luus?  He is the chief?  Yes.  He's the head chief of the House?  Yes.  He's the head chief now.  And that's Jeffery Harris Sr.?  Correct.  Are there other chiefs in the House of Luus besides  yourself and Jeffery Harris Sr.?  There is one there that was Gyaalax gan that sit  beside me.  And the next one was Gwin lax nisxw.  Are there people alive today who have those names?  Yes.  Who has the name Gyaalax gan?  That's Norman Weget.  Norman Weget?  Yes.  And who has the name Gwin lax nisxw?  That's Irene Cornoieux.  Are those all of the other chiefs in the House of  Luus?  The one that sit on this side of Gyaalax gan, Gwin lax  nisxw, that's Wii Elaast sitting right here.  Is Wii Elaast a chief --  Yes.  -- in the House of Luus?  Yes.  Because he was sitting right there.  Are there any other chiefs in -- well, first of all  let me ask you who has the name Wii Elaast?  Oh, that's Jimmy -- James Angus Jr.  Are there any other chiefs in the House of Luus?  Not any more on the table that I -- that I see.  Do you sit at the same table in the Feast hall as  Jeffery Harris Sr.?  Not right now.  I'm sitting right -- there were Wii  Elaast, then Gwin lax nisxw next, then Gyaalax gan and  I am over there.  That's Kla'aayuu.  That's your name?  Yes.  And you are at a different table from Jeffery Harris?  Yes.  You see, when I got the name I was sitting on  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A 1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  76  Luus' table, but when I got this name, so that's why I  was moved in the next table, in the Feast, you see.  Before you got that name you were sitting at Luus'  table?  Yes.  And after you got the name you were moved to another  table?  Yes.  To the next and they all -- that's where I am at  now.  Do you know why you were moved to another table?  This name that I got belongs to that table, you see.  When I got that name that's why they move me over  there.  Does the name that you have, Kla'aayuu, belong to  Luus?  Does it belong to the House of Luus?  No.  It's the same relatives, though, but they are  different.  You know when I got the House even they  live in the house but they live on that side.  You  see, that's little different than Luus.  Even if it's  inside here, in the Indian, we call it not really  relative to it because they call it in my language luu  sto'o wilp.  That means he's on this side.  Although  it's in the House of Luus, it's still.  Are you part of luu sto'o wilp?  I am the not sure if  I understand that.  Yes.  So is your name part of luu sto'o wilp?  Yes.  That's why I am not sitting on the table now  because they move me into the next.  Where I am at now  I am closer to Wii Elaast and also Kliiyem Lax haa  sitting right here on the head table.  Are you at the same table at Kliiyem Lax haa?  Yes.  Right now it is.  Martha Brown used to have the name Kliiyem Lax haa?  Yes.  She has passed on now?  Yes.  Passed on and her daughter Eva Sampson got that.  Martha's daughter Eva is going to take the name -- or  has the got name Kliiyem Lax haa?  Yes.  She has got it already.  Is she sitting in Kliiyem Lax haa's seat in the Feast  hall already?  Yes.  Now, Luus and Gyolugyet sit at the same table at the  Feast hall?  Yes.  Do you know why that is or can you tell me why that 1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  77  is?  Well, you see Luus got his own table.  Now that I see  he's got his own table and Gyolugyet before I got this  name, you know, I used to sit at Gyolugyet's table.  I  used to sit right close to where Mary's sitting and  Kwamoon and Suu wii gos, and all those names, and I  used to sit with them, but when I got that name that's  why I was moved to the next.  Closer to Kliiyem Lax  haa and Elaast.  Did you used to sit on the same side of the table as  Kwamoon?  Yeah.  When Waiget -- I mean Gyolugyet, Kwamoon sit on  the side of her and the rest of them, Kwamoon, and I  forgot names now.  I think you said Suu wii gos?  Yeah.  Does Gyolugyet sit at the head of this table?  Yes.  And Jeffery Harris Sr. sits on one side?  Yes.  And Kwamoon sits on the other?  Yes.  That's right.  Is that right?  Yes.  Before you got the name that you now have,  Kla'aayuu --  Yes.  -- did you sit on the same side of the table from --  as Kwamoon or were you down past Luus?  Yes.  I was sitting with Luus table.  And then you got the name and you were moved to  another table?  Yes.  You told us that when you were born your family was  travelling to Stewart?  Correct.  And you were born on the way?  Under the tree just ahead of Mezziadan Lake.  Do you know why your family was travelling to Stewart?  Well, you see, they want to get into the Stewart  before Christmas.  In other words, is to pick up some  more supply.  So they were going to Stewart to pick up supplies?  Yes.  And then they were going to head back to Mezziadan  or --  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  4 6 MR.  RUSH  47  A  78  -- where?  After they pick it up they come right back again.  And were these supplies for -- to take out on the  trapline?  Yes.  Part of it.  And that belongs to the -- that's  for the house that they live in in Mezziadan.  Now, you told us that your mother was born in 1886.  Do you remember saying that?  Yes.  How do you know that?  My uncle tells me that that's Luus, that's Abel Tait,  he was way older than my mother.  So it was your uncle Abel Tait --  Yeah.  -- that told you when your mother was born?  Yes.  And I think you said that your mother lived partly in  Mezziadan and partly in Stewart?  Yes.  That's —  Why did she live in Stewart?  Well, you see, that's after all the trapping is over  and things like that, so they get in there late in the  spring and sell all the furs, things like that.  So  that so they want to spend a little free time to live  around there for, oh, maybe a month or so and then go  back to Mezziadan again.  So your mother would live in Stewart for a month or so  in the spring after the furs had been sold?  Yes.  And then go back to Mezziadan?  Correct, yes.  And that's where you had a house?  Uh-huh.  I had a nice house, nice cabin there.  A log  cabin.  Well built.  You've told us that your mother and Mary Anne Jack  were breast fed by the same woman?  Correct.  That was Mary Anne's mother?  Uh-huh.  Did that make them like sisters?  Yes.  Is there a Gitksan word for that relationship?  Some of my words it takes me to remember, time to  remember.  Well, just like that -- just like sisters,  you know, and they say in Indian that's hlgiikxw't.  May I have the spelling of that, please?  That's hlgiikxw't.  You see, that's almost brothers 79  1 and sisters together.  2 MR. PLANT:  3 Q   That word that you have used means almost brothers or  4 almost sisters?  5 A   No.  They are sisters.  6 MR. PLANT:   Okay.  We just have to stop for a second while Mrs.  7 Stevens gives me the spelling of that word.  8 MS. STEVENS:  Hlgiikxw't.  H-1-g-i-i-k-x-w-'-t.  9 MR. PLANT:  10 Q   Is that the word in Gitksan for sister?  11 A   Yes.  That's correct.  12 Q   If you were describing the relationship between your  13 mother and Mary Anne Jack, would you say that they  14 were hlgiikxw't?  15 A   Yes.  That's what they call each other, you see, when  16 they start talking.  17 Q   So they must have been very close?  18 A   Yes.  There is that's hlgiigw'y, you see, that's what  19 it means, that's my sister.  20 Q   You said that Esther Holland and your mother were also  21 closely related like sisters?  22 A   Yes.  That's right.  23 Q   Did they also call each other hlgiigw'y?  24 A   Yes.  That's correct.  25 Q   Do you know how they were related?  26 A  Well, you know, in Gyolugyet's house they are so close  27 together closely, that's what they call really closely  28 related.  They are still -- Esther still said to my  29 mother it's hlgiikxw't to -- when somebody ask what is  30 it to you?  "Hlgiigw'y," that's what she said.  31 Q   So they would call each other sisters?  32 A   Yes.  That's right.  Well, I'll tell you this once  33 that's out of that, you see, like -- like Mary's  34 father and Esther, they really want to adopt me once,  35 you know, that if you come to us we're going to put up  36 a Feast and tell the chiefs that you're going to be my  37 son.  Well, I willing to go, but my mother wouldn't  38 let me go.  Just she just said no, because Esther only  39 got one son, that's George Holland.  And they need me,  40 you see, that's going to be your brother.  The reason  41 why they said, I went out with George father in  42 trapping ground up in that Seven Sisters there, and  43 she find out -- he find out that I'm really good in  44 the bush and trapping, too, so in -- Gyolugyet's got a  45 big ground up there.  "That's the one you going to  46 look after," that's what he said to me.  So I'm  47 willing to go, but my mother wouldn't let me go.  She 80  1 just said no.  But after that I got married up here,  2 then that's where I live.  3 Q After that you got married in Glen Vowell?  4 A Yes.  5 Q So this happened before you were married?  6 A Yes.  Uh-huh.  7 Q Just so I understand when this happened, do you know  8 how old you were when this happened?  9 A I was quite young that time, you know.  I think  10 it's — that's in 1928.  Well, that's during the  11 depression.  12 Q It was after you had the fever?  13 A Uh-huh.  14 Q After?  15 A Yes.  16 Q Yes.  17 A That's after I got cured of everything.  18 Q You said that Mary's father and Esther really wanted  19 to adopt me.  Mary's father was Mary McKenzie's  20 father?  21 A Yes.  22 Q And that would be Esther's husband?  23 A Uh-huh.  That's William Holland, his name.  24 Q And they wanted to adopt you because they they had a  25 big hunting ground, Gyolugyet had a big hunting  2 6 ground?  27 A Yes.  He's got a big -- that's what they told me.  28 MR. RUSH: He also said he only -- and he only had one son.  2 9 MR. PLANT:  30 Q Yes.  31 A Well, they want me to teach Georgie how to trap and  32 how to hunt hunt.  33 Q Why did you mother -- or let me ask you this:  Did  34 your mother tell you why she wouldn't allow you to do  35 this?  36 A I don't know, because she just want -- don't want me  37 to leave them.  38 Q She didn't want you to leave your family?  39 A Yes.  But what she said to me, "I don't want you to  40 get married up there."  That's what she said.  I laugh  41 when she said that.  How do you know I am getting  42 married?  But after that I get married.  4 3 Q Anyway?  44 A Now that time she can't stop me.  45 Q When you married Eva, was that?  46 A Yes.  Yes.  That's right.  47 Q Was that an arranged marriage? 81  1 A   Yes.  Part of it, because, you see, Eva is the son of  2 my great great -- daughter of the great great  3 grandfather.  4 Q   You told us that your mother and father had an  5 arranged marriage.  Do you remember telling us that?  6 A   Yes.  That's correct.  7 Q   And that's the way it used to be done back in the days  8 when your mother and father got married?  9 A   Yes.  You see, when a person grows up in the chief's  10 house, just like they do with the princess or the  11 prince, they look around where this one was born,  12 whose his father is, what kind of father they had.  If  13 they got it good, well, they got a daughter there,  14 well, that one was good.  So the whole family said  15 yeah, we going to accept that.  So the son, maybe ten  16 of them gather together and go over there and start  17 talking to the head of the house, what they are there  18 for, that they going to take that young woman.  That's  19 for my father.  Well -- and they had -- they had some  20 kind of a Feast just relationship to talk about it.  21 Well, the whole family and this side, they said okay,  22 okay.  But they bring lots of things with them, you  23 know.  They give it to the -- to the father or  24 somebody else that my mother's relatives that turn  25 everything over there.  They said, "Okay, you can take  26 her."  So they take her and my father isn't with them.  27 They take it all the way from where they got it and  28 bring it to my father in Kitwancool.  29 Q   You say they would bring lots of things.  What kind of  30 things?  31 A  Well, anything -- well.  Like now you see.  I don't  32 know what white people call that.  But if I am -- if I  33 want to get married or something like this, you know,  34 we call that haa naks.  Haa naks.  If I got money, you  35 see, maybe I give my relative money for that that I  36 want that woman over there, so they get together, you  37 know, and turn over, turn that money over him.  If  38 they accept that, well, they can take the money.  39 Q   How would the mothers say the woman's family or --  40 well, how were the various people chosen?  How would  41 one family choose who to look for for -- say if it's  42 the husband's family, how would the husband's family  43 choose who to look for for a wife?  44 A  Well, if -- well, you got eyes too.  You are going to  45 place your eyes on one of the girl or somebody else  46 and you talk.  47 Q   So you fall in love? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  Yes.  They don't get together what they are going to  tell and that's the one that check over there, too, so  it's okay, well, they go and get -- get that one.  The lady here is having trouble hearing some of the  things that you are saying.  I am enjoying the fact  that we are talking to each other, but you are going  to have to speak a little bit more over to your left  so that we don't miss anything.  Okay.  Yeah.  Nowadays, do marriages still get arranged?  Not now.  Not anymore that I can see.  Even if I say  no, they still get married anyway.  They -- the kids do what they want nowadays?  Yes.  Now, you have told us that you had a sister Maria or  'Ma-rye-ya'?  Yes.  Is she still alive?  No.  When did she die?  She died in '60, I think.  She get hit by the truck in  Terrace there.  In 1960, thereabouts?  Yes.  Was she living in Terrace then?  Uh-huh.  You are nodding and that means yes?  Yeah.  How long had she been living in Terrace?  Well, there is my mother, other sisters lives there.  That's why she get on there.  When my sister Louise,  she's supposed to have a baby, so they got nobody to  look after the rest of the kids.  My sister Maria was  living in Stewart at the time, but she come over,  that's how she get in Terrace.  She start looking  after Louise's kids when she is in the hospital.  Where was she living before she went over to Terrace?  Stewart.  Oh, Stewart.  Thank you.  Yes.  Stewart, B.C.  Was Maria younger than you or older than you?  Way older than me.  Do you remember when she was born?  No.  That's -- I think she must be about two years  older than me.  Was Maria married to someone?  Yes.  She was married to Gordon Dick. 1 Q And they lived in Stewart?  2 A Yes.  Gordon had a house.  He bought a house in  3 Stewart.  And a little piece of lot there.  That's  4 where they lived.  5 Q Is Gordon a Gitksan person?  6 A Yes.  7 Q What was his crest or his clan?  8 A That's Frog.  Ganaa'w.  That's Lax See'l.  9 Q You said a word there that I don't think I have heard  10 before.  Ganaa'w.  11 MS. STEVENS:  Ganaa'w.  12 A That's Frog.  13 MR. PLANT:  14 Q Oh.  Yes.  Right.  15 A Ganaa'w.  That's right.  16 Q Are Ganaa'w and Lax See'l the same thing?  17 A Ganaa'w is the same and Lax See'l.  What he says  18 really true of anything that's Ganaa'w.  That's the  19 Frog.  Say Ganaa'w Lax See'l.  Ganaa'w.  2 0 Q Ganaa'w?  21 A Yeah.  22 Q Am I getting better?  23 A Yes, you're getting very close.  Not too far.  We can  24 understand what you say.  25 Q The only problem is I only know how to say six words,  26 so I don't think I would get along very well after I  27 exhausted that.  You have made me lose my train of  28 thought, which is very good.  I was asking you about  29 Maria.  Maria, your sister, or is it 'Ma-rye-ya' or  30 Maria?  31 A 'Ma-rye-ya'.  32 Q Maria.  She had a son named Percy?  33 A Yes.  34 Q And did she have some daughters, too?  35 A She's got two.  36 Q Do you remember who they were?  37 A One was Jean and the other was Juanita.  38 Q Juanita.  39 A Yes.  Juanita.  40 Q Did she have a third daughter named Patricia?  41 A No.  Oh, yeah.  That's Patricia is the one that's the  42 oldest one.  They call Pat.  43 Q Do you know --  44 A I —  45 Q I am sorry?  46 A I forgot about her.  47 Q Are those three girls still alive? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  84  Yes.  Do you know where they live today?  Jean, she married Peter Martin.  They used to have a  house in Terrace there, but he sold that house and  then he moved to Kitimat.  That's where they are  living now.  Is he a Gitksan person?  No.  He's a white.  And what about Juanita, where does she live?  I don't know what nationality that man that Juanita  married, but he's a nice person, though.  I forgot  what they call that little place just below Terrace  there.  Near Terrace?  Yes.  Just below Terrace.  That's where they live.  You know that place there?  It's so low it's all  flooded all the time.  Gee, I forgot the name of that  little place now.  I am afraid I don't know the name of it, so I can't  help you.  How about Patricia, do you know where she  lives?  She used to live in Terrace too, and then she belonged  to the -- she joined one of the church there and  that's where she works.  That's where I had to verify  her from everything.  When she really joined the  church, they want all her background, what she do, and  her father and grandfather.  She sent that paper to  me, so I wrote everything out and I send it back to  her and then she -- she's okay.  They going to have a  commission.  I don't know what she is doing in the  church.  Well, she was okay after and she stays with  that church, but the last word I got they had to send  her over to United States.  That's where she's at.  But she still working in that same church.  You had to verify everything for her?  Yeah.  That was the word you used a minute ago?  Yes.  That's why they accept her.  She's good, got a  good background.  What about Percy, Maria's son Percy, where does he  live?  Well, he's in Prince Rupert now.  Has he lived there for awhile?  Yes.  Well, she's -- he's not very good, Percy, for a  long time, because he drinks so much.  When I went to  Prince Rupert, do you think I can find him?  No.  I  told my partner there the only place where I can find 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  him is at where is the liquor store here.  I going to  hang around the liquor store.  That's where I am going  to find him.  That's where Henry Wilson and I drive.  He drive.  I walk over there and I see a man coming.  Henry Wilson was your partner?  Yeah.  In —  Well, that used to be -- that's my brother-in-law.  You know, Ethel, one of Jeff Harris' sisters, that's  the one he married.  That's why she likes me.  That's --.  Well, not very long there is a man.  He's  a nice man.  I said, "Do you know where — "  I don't  know that guy, but I know he's going into the liquor  store.  I said, "Do you know -- do you know Percy?"  He said, "Yes.  I just come from where they are right  now."  He said, "Come on.  I'll take you where they  are."  And there was old broken house behind, they are  still tearing it down behind the liquor store in  Rupert, and there was Percy sitting down way down  below there.  Well, I did find him.  Well, let me ask you about one of your brothers,  Freddie.  Was he born after you?  Yes.  He's younger than you?  Yes.  Where was he born?  I think in Kitwanga.  And is he still alive?  Yes.  He lives in Prince Rupert?  Yes.  He's in Prince Rupert.  But he's in an old man's  home now.  Did he used to fish commercially?  Yes.  That's -- that's why he is still down there.  He fished for a long time?  Yes.  All his life.  He just got his own boat, too.  But he's retired now?  Yes.  But he's crippled right now.  And the only -- I  am the only healthiest one in the family, although I  spent two years in bed when I was young.  Well, maybe that's what's keeping you going now.  Did  any of your brothers or yourself fight in the Second  World War?  The youngest one did, Felix.  He was signed over to go  overseas.  While he's on the way out the war was over.  So that was the end his war experience?  Yeah. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33 MR.  RUSH:  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  4 0 MR.  PLANT  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Did he come back to here?  Yeah.  He come back and live in Rupert.  Did he also work as a commercial fisherman?  No.  Well, he did fish with me once one summer in  sockeye season.  Did he have other jobs?  He did work for the city.  I don't know what kind of  job that he was doing in Prince Rupert.  He worked for  the city.  You told me -- you told us that you had a sister  Louise and she is the sister who -- no.  You haven't  told us about Louise.  Louise was in Terrace for  awhile?  Yes.  She's still in there.  Well, her first husband  was -- maybe you got it.  Johnny Miller is his name,  that guy.  Is he a white man?  Yes.  Did she have a second husband?  Two years after Johnny died, then she marry Cliff --  Clifford Sutherland and she's still with him today.  Is he a Gitksan person?  No.  Is he a white man?  Yeah.  I believe he's a Scots or something.  Did Louise have any children?  Yes.  Could you tell me who they were?  She had a daughter, the name of -- what's her name  now.  Jeanette.  I couldn't -- the other one was  Jeanette.  Oh, Virginia, the oldest one.  Virginia.  She had a son when he get married before --  Excuse me.  Just a second.  Richard, can you sit back  a little bit and just move your chair over, just move  your chair a little closer to the reporter.  That's  just so she can hear you.  Some of your answers she  cannot hear.  Okay.  Well, the trouble is you couldn't read this writing.  I look at it but I couldn't read it.  You were telling me about Louise's children?  Yes.  Did Louise have a son named Alec Wesley?  Yes.  And did she have another son?  Yes.  Arnold, that's Miller's son, Arnold Miller his  name. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  87  Did Louise marry someone whose last name was Wesley?  Yeah.  That was before she married Miller.  Right.  In Kitsequkla.  Douglas Wesley.  She passed on long  time ago.  What House would the children -- are the children of  Louise members of?  Well, the House that belongs is really come from  Kuldo, that's Luus.  So they are all part of the House of Luus?  Yes.  Now, the only one of your brothers we haven't talked  about is John Benson.  Did you have a brother John?  Yes.  But that was the youngest one, but he got sick  and died long time ago.  He died when he's very young.  I don't know.  I wasn't home.  Now, you have told us about your marriage to Eva  Wesley?  Yes.  In 1935?  Yes.  Uh-huh.  Did you and Eva have children?  Yes.  Can you tell me their names, please?  Well, the oldest one was Thelma and my son Raymond and  the next one was Harvey.  And the other one was  Gladys, and Clifford.  And the last one was Donald.  Donald?  Yes.  That's my son.  Were all those people children of your first wife Eva?  Yes.  Are they all still alive today?  No.  You see, all of them, when they went to Vancouver  the only thing I got is just the casket come back.  They all on that dope and things like that.  Have they all -- have all of your children gone down  to Vancouver?  Well, one at a time.  I don't know what they are  doing.  But when they go to work they didn't come  back.  After awhile I find out they in Vancouver.  Your second wife was Grace Sexsmith?  Yes.  Is she still alive?  No.  She passed on on '85.  That's only April 9 that  she passed on.  When did you marry Grace?  Well, to begin with, you know, when my first wife died 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  my daughter, one of them, I got two little children  there I can't -- I can't look after.  So Grace was the  very true relative of my wife.  They almost sisters,  you know.  They are in the same House?  Yeah.  The same House of Gutginuxw.  So they want  me -- they want to look after Rosie, but I was still  working at the time, you know, and I pay her so much a  month to look after those two children.  And after  awhile she had an idea, you know.  She said,  "Richard," Grace said, "if you stay with me you don't  have to pay me any money," she said, "but I still look  after the children."  Well, you see, I don't -- I  don't feel like just living with a woman, because I  belong to the church.  So I walk over to the Salvation  Army and talk to them and I go and get the licence.  So we got really really married, legally married, at  the Minister.  So I feel free to go to church and do  anything, because they don't allow me to stay without  marriage.  That's why I do it.  I want to do what's  right.  Do you remember about how long ago that it was that  you married Grace?  Well, I count the years when she passed on was -- it  was over 34 years I was with her.  Were you married for over 34 years?  Yes.  Did you and Grace have any children?  No.  She is too old to have any children at that time.  Mr. Benson, do you know a woman named Heather Harris  who I think lives in Kispiox?  No, I don't think so.  I am going to show you a document and ask you if you  have ever seen it before.  This is a document that has  some names of people who are in the House of Luus on  it?  Yes.  And your lawyer gave to me and I just wonder if you  have ever seen it before.  I'll tell you, if you  haven't seen it before I won't ask you any questions  about it.  Yes.  So the first question is really just to ask you if you  recognize this piece of paper or these pieces of --  Yes.  -- pieces of paper?  Yes, I know.  I know all that on there in that Luus -- 1 that's Wilps Luus.  2 Q   That's the House of Luus?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Have you seen that piece of paper before, do you  5 remember?  It doesn't look familiar to you, does it?  6 A   Not very.  But I know the names of the people on  7 there.  8 Q   Well, yes.  I think you probably do.  You've told --  9 one of the names on the first page is Ethel Harris and  10 you've told me a few minutes ago that Ethel Harris had  11 married Henry Wilson?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Yes.  14 A   Ethel is really my sister.  She look after me when I  15 was young.  That's how I really know.  16 Q   When you -- a little while ago you gave me a word that  17 I can't pronounce.  Hlgiikxw, which is the word for  18 sister?  19 A   Hlgiikxw.  20 Q   Thank you.  Would you have called Ethel your sister,  21 would you have used that word for her?  22 A   Yes.  In Indian you say gimxdi.  23 Q   What does that mean?  24 A   That means that's two womans, that's hlgiikxw.  Well,,  25 you see, I am a man and Ethel is like my sister.  26 Sister, that's gimxdi.  That's what it means.  That's  27 my -- the same as hlgiikxw, you know, but it  28 pronounced differently.  It says gimxdi.  29 Q   Why do you call Ethel the second of those two terms,  30 is that because you are a man and she is a woman?  31 A   Yes.  32 MR. PLANT:   Okay.  Thank you.  Mr. Rush, I would simply like  33 the record to show for identification purposes that  34 the document that the witness did not identify was the  35 document which you have provided to me as a genealogy  36 of the House of Luus.  37 MR. RUSH:  Well, I think what you can do is put on the record  38 that you showed a document to the witness that was --  39 if it's the same document I have called Wilps Luus  40 Clan Lax Gibuu, Kispiox, and by your own statement was  41 not familiar to him.  42 MR. MACAULAY:  Let's not leave it there.  Why don't you show  43 your document to Mr. Rush and make sure that you are  44 both talking about the same document.  45 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  I'm actually going to, so there is no  46 confusion, suggest that this be marked as an exhibit  47 for identification purposes only.  Unless you want to 90  1  2  3  4  MR.  RUSH:  5  6  MR.  PLANT  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  9  10  11  MR.  PLANT  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  MR.  PLANT  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  have a look at it and agree that it is the same as the  document which you provided to me some days ago as a  genealogy of the House of Luus.  What you are asking is did I provide you with a  genealogy of the House of Luus and is this it?  :  Yes.  I don't have any problem with that.  That's the  document that I gave to you which is -- we provided to  you as the genealogy of the House of Luus, but I don't  think the witness --  :  Can identify it.  -- can say anything about it.  He can't identify it.  :  I just want to be sure we are clear on the record  what it is we are talking about.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Benson, you have told us that you had fished  commercially at the coast for about 15 seasons?  Yes.  Correct.  Do you remember about when that was, how long ago that  was?  I think I start somewhere around '37.  After your marriage to Eva Wesley?  Yes.  Had you fished commercially at the coast prior to your  marriage to Eva Wesley?  Yes.  I am not sure if you heard that question.  Had you  ever gone down to the coast to fish before you married  Eva?  Yes, I did.  When I was really young at the time.  With your father?  No, I was -- yeah, I was with my father.  But the  cannery across there I was so young.  When I got that  boat, you know, that's just the sailboat and the  people were around there, they didn't think I'm going  to catch any fish at all because I was so young.  You  think that young fellow will catch any?  Well, there  is lots of boats down there.  I don't think he is  going to catch any.  But at the end the first week I  was up on top of all those boats.  Japanese are good  fishermen and I was right beside them, because  everywhere the Japanese go I go to anchor where they  anchor, I anchor right between them, so when they  start moving around I can hear it.  I wake up.  I get  out too.  Do you remember how old you were when you did that?  I was really young.  Somewhere around maybe 18 or 19.  That's why they think I am not going to catch any 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  91  fish.  Well, I was start -- my boss was the man that  was hire me to fish was the man from Kispiox.  It was  John Brown.  Gee, that old man was happy.  My God, he  go around looking for me, the first week my name was  way up there and the man was laughing at me was a way  down.  Was that the first time that you went fishing at the  coast?  Yes.  That's why they think I'm not going to catch any  fish.  Did you ever go down to the coast with your father  when you were just a child?  Yes.  Yes.  I remember he used to take me in the boat.  That's in the sailboat.  How old were you then, do you remember?  I don't know, because I was really young.  Was that before you went away to the school in Sardis?  Yeah.  Yeah.  That's right.  The first time that you fished by yourself was when  you were 18 or 19 and you went --  Yeah.  -- down there when John Brown hired you?  Yeah.  Now, after that year, after that season of fishing,  did you go back again the next year?  Yes.  Well, this time when I start getting good and  that's the only man that is a good fisherman, they  still want the man that give the gas boat.  Well, that  year when I went back I got a gas boat.  So you got a gas boat the second year --  Yeah.  -- that you fished?  The second year.  Was that when you were about 2 0 then?  Yeah.  That's when I really fished.  Now, you told me a few minutes ago that you started  fishing at the coast in 1937?  Yes.  And I'm a little confused now.  Do you remember you  married Eva?  Yeah.  In about 1935 you said?  Uh-huh.  Did you go fishing at the coast after you married Eva?  Yes.  Every season is it's open.  What was the last time -- the last year that you went  down to the coast to fish? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34 MR.  PLANT  35  36  37 MR.  RUSH:  38  A  39  40  41  42 MR.  PLANT  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  92  I went down many times after I quit fishing.  Oh, my  gosh, I work -- I work around the cannery there.  That's in Cassiar Cannery.  Cassiar?  Yes.  Gee, there is a lot of people working there.  The reason why the -- I get hired on the cannery there  because I really understand everything.  You know,  there is so many people working there, you know, and  when the foreman told them to do this and do that.  And the reason I was hired, you know, because this  fellow is supposed to take that great big engine now  in the stock room and that man didn't understand where  to take that, so he just go and dump it over the dock.  Can you think about when you stopped going down to the  coast and tell me about when that was, or if you want  I could ask you this question.  You told me that your  wife Eva died -- when did your wife Eva die?  '50, I think.  Now, were you -- did you go down to the coast after  your wife Eva died?  Yes.  That's why -- that's when I was still working in  the cannery in Cassiar.  Were you still going down to the coast in the 1960s  and '70s?  No.  Just '50 and '51, '52, and then I decided to quit  going down there, because I want to stay up above  here, you know, and cut cedar poles, because I went  through there and I see real good cedars that we going  to cut, so I stay.  That's where I started cutting.  So when you started cutting cedar poles was the same  time that you stopped going down to the the coast, is  that right?  Yes.  :   Well, I suggest that we have a ten minute  adjournment since it's about 3 o'clock and come back  after that.  No problem.  Have a break, Richard.  Yes.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  Mr. Benson, you told me just before we broke a few  minutes ago about cutting poles in 1951?  Yes.  Where did you cut poles in 1951?  Way up above Skeena here. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  93  I am sorry, above where?  Above Skeena here at, oh, I would say about 20 or 25  miles.  20 to 25 miles up the Skeena River from here?  Yes.  Across, that's on this side of the Skeena.  Past Kispiox?  Way up above.  What were the poles for?  Well, that's for the powerline and telephone, all of  them they are mostly for the powerline.  Did you take them somewhere to be cut after you had  chopped down the trees?  No.  All we do is cut them down and measure and then  peel it and leave it there and the skidder will come  and take them away.  And they put it on the landing  where the trucks came along and load it on and take it  into -- to the Bell Pole.  You remember the name of any of the creeks near where  you were working?  Well, there is -- there is one creek there that -- I  don't know what they call it.  They called Crazy  Creek.  You know, every time they run off, it runs in  a different direction and next day it runs -- even in  the fall when the river, it rain so much, and then it  runs in different directions.  That's why they call  them Crazy Creek.  Is it farther north than, say, the Sportsman's Lodge?  Hey?  Do you know where the Sportsman's Lodge Restaurant is?  Oh, is the Sportsman's Lodge up there?  I never seen  any.  Must be up to Kispiox.  Yes, that's right.  That's where the Sportsman's Lodge is.  And you were cutting poles up the Skeena, is that  right?  Yes.  That's going up on the right hand of Skeena.  About 20 to 25 miles up from here?  Yeah.  Do you know whose territory you were cutting poles in?  That territory belongs -- the trapping ground it  belongs to I think that's Gwoimt.  Gwoimt?  Yes.  That's Austin Matthews' trap there.  Austin Matthews?  Yes.  Did you ask Austin's permission before you cut poles  up there? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  94  No.  You see, the Bell Pole Company got that permit to  anyone that hires us and put us to work, and I didn't  know that place belongs to these people.  You didn't know that place you were cutting poles  belonged to Austin Matthews?  Yes.  And you called it the Bell Pole Company?  Yeah.  How many years did you cut poles?  Oh, right there while the poles are there I think I --  it takes -- I was there almost ten years, over ten  years.  In the same area?  Yes.  There is a lot of poles there.  Before you started cutting poles in about 1951 had you  done any logging work?  Yes.  I did fall two for that logging.  When did you do that?  Well, at the time, you know, we still fall cedar poles  and start when the logging comes in, well, we didn't  do very much, but after that, that's when the real  logging outfit moved in there.  That was in 1951?  Yes.  And they build road almost way up the mountain  there, until -- but right now when I go up there again  there is roads all over this.  There is no trees  there.  There is nothing.  Nobody can do any trapping  around there anymore.  It's all cleaned off.  You  can't even see a squirrel around there.  Did you do any logging work before you were married to  Eva Wesley?  No.  I was trapping.  That's -- well, that time was  still depression is all.  There isn't no work no way.  But you were doing some trapping?  Yeah.  That's the only place where we can pick up  little bit of money when we caught some martin and  things like that.  Those animals.  Beaver, muskrat.  You know, those days the trappers, they the only one  that got money and the fishermen, commercial fishermen  down the coast.  There isn't no work around here at  all.  There is no -- there is nothing you can do.  When did you first do any logging work?  Well, the first that was starting cedar, cedar poles,  that's only -- that was still in the depression was  on.  Oh, gosh, but the price of food was so low.  $10  I can buy a lot of groceries.  Almost a box full like  that. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  95  So you did a little bit of logging then?  Yes.  That's just cedar.  After the mill started --  no, the cedar pole log was on cedar pole all the time.  I was up above here.  It's still Bell Pole.  You said after the mill started.  What mill was that?  That just a small mill.  There is two of them.  One  mill was Chris Harris' and the next one was Pete  Muldoe's.  Did they have -- did they each have their own mill?  Yes.  Or did they have the same mill?  Yes, they have the same mill.  And did you do a little bit of work for them too?  Yes.  And when was that?  Was that in the 1930s?  No.  That was somewhere around '40s.  Then in 1951 is when you really began doing a lot of  work?  Yes.  Cutting poles?  Yes.  Now, you said that you were cutting poles for about  ten years in the same area?  Uh-huh.  What did you do after that?  I still do the same thing, but we had to move on this  side.  I mean in Kispiox there it's still Bell Pole  Company that.  But this one is a different contractor.  That's Ted Campbell.  Ted Campbell, the fellow who has the ranch in the  Kispiox Valley?  Yes.  That's just above that place way up.  That's  what they were cutting that.  I was hired there.  And  after that we cut so much poles they wasn't skidders,  so the Bell Pole send us down, all those poles got to  be skidded or else you happen to be hired, it will  burn everything.  So they cut us off, so that's why  Dundas hired me and it was still up on the Skeena  there.  That's where I was working.  So you worked for Mr. Dundas up on the Skeena?  Yeah.  Cutting --  Yeah.  On -- but we have to go unto Kispiox to get  the —  And were you cutting poles?  Yeah.  Cedar poles.  Working for Mr. Dundas? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  96  Yeah.  Now, whereabouts up the Skeena was this?  You see where Marty Allen is they call that creek --  we call it Xsa'an saagit.  Well, that's what they call  it today, that's Murder Creek.  That's what saagit  means murder in our language.  There is a song for murder, isn't there?  Yes.  Limx saagit?  Yes.  That's right.  Yes.  Now, you have told us -- what did you do after you  worked for Mr. Dundas?  Well, you see, that's the reason why I -- I forgot  what kind of company they hired them.  I was cutting,  you know, and the man from Calgary came over checking  everything the work they do, saying they doing good so  they got hired.  They going to move them to the good  living in Golden, B.C.  But Dundas don't want to leave  me here.  He said, "You are a good man on the cedar  poles so we got to take you with us."  The old -- my  wife and my son, so that's how -- that's how I get out  and living in Golden.  And you took your wife and son with you?  Yes.  Do you remember what year it was that you moved to  Golden?  That's '56.  And did you stay in Golden all year round?  Yes.  I was there pretty close to five years.  Where did you live after Golden?  Well, I stayed there for five years, you know, and I  just about hired once, you know, in Queen Charlotte  Island.  I didn't know they got the man there.  We  fall in -- we falling logs at the time.  Gee, I  couldn't -- nice firs there and now come down just  like anything.  And there is one fool faller there.  He hang up and he's got seven trees.  These are up  there and they can't get it down.  They don't know how  to do it.  Even that bulldozer wouldn't get near to  it.  So they climb up where I was falling, they said  they going to see what this faller will say and I  didn't know the Queen Charlotte was around there at  that time.  So I came down and I look at it.  "Can you  get it down?"  I said yeah, I could.  But that faller  himself got to do the saw but I'll be with him.  Gee,  that man is scared.  He was shake because the seven 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  97  trees on top.  Seven trees hanging in one tree?  Yeah.  And was this something that happened when you were in  Golden?  Yes.  Well, you see, I undercut that for him.  I know  how to do that.  So it wouldn't bounce on him.  So now  touch the back now, I said.  Don't get scared, I told  him.  I'll be standing.  You watch me, I'll stand  right here.  When I touch you, if your saw get caught,  just let it go.  Well, that -- you know, there are so  many trees there.  The tree wouldn't go down fast.  It  will come down very slow.  That's what I was telling  him.  Well, you see, when he start to move when I see  it's going to go, now I touch him.  So he run away.  And the whole works came down.  There was eight trees  there now.  Well, I didn't know this man from Queen  Charlotte Island was and after the work is over then  he was looking for me.  He wants to hire me for to go  to Queen Charlotte Island.  "But you are not going to  fall", he told me.  "You just going to walk around  through among those fallers."  That's what he said.  "You going to be a safety man because I see you  understand everything what you're doing."  I was going  to go but my wife wouldn't -- don't want to go.  Your wife didn't want to move to the Queen Charlotte  Islands?  No, no.  "You can go,"  she said, "but I wouldn't go."  "I'll go.  I'll go."  Well, that's why I didn't go.  So where did you go?  I come back home here.  And what did you do when you came back home?  Well, just stay around for awhile until I get hired --  that's when I get hired, start falling for the sawmill  across the -- that's when I said to that man that met  me when I was away up there falling logs, you know  that big mill they got in Golden there was that they  call that that's a Sigalet.  That's a big mill.  That's the name of that guy.  And that's the man I saw  up above where I was falling.  I know him.  I looked  down and I said, "Hey," I told him, "this is a small  world, hey?"  I said.  I said, "You used to be in  Golden."  Now we've met up here again.  So you were cutting trees up around here at that time?  Yes.  I was falling logs for the sawmill.  Is that the Weststar Mill?  Yeah.  Un-huh.  The mill is still there now. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  Were you living in Glen Vowell then?  Yes.  Uh-huh.  I want to ask you some questions about your father.  Do you know when he died?  Who?  Your father, Fred Wilitsxw.  '62.  In 1962?  Yes.  He was really very old, but I don't know how old  he is .  What kind of jobs did your father have in his life?  Well, the only thing they do is trap.  That's all they  ever do.  He did a bit of fishing, too?  Yes.  Down at the coast?  Down the coast, yes.  Gee, my father was a good  trapper with that beaver.  You know, 720 beaver when  they get tied together like that is just a skin.  I  couldn't lift that up.  My father packed that into  Stewart.  He caught 720 beaver one season?  '75.  He's got -- gee, it's heavy.  They followed it  so good, you know, and it's about that wide.  Was that from his trap -- his trapline?  Yes.  Was that around Mezziadan?  Yeah.  I think my father supposed to be really good --  good man, but I told him that, you know, when after I  come back out of school.  Yes.  Before he make lot of money in trapping.  I don't know  how many thousand.  For so many years.  He's got so  much money, so he doesn't know how to run any  business, so he put up a store, the big store in  Kitwanga, and he hire somebody to do it for him and  there is no cash.  They just let everything out.  I  was surprised -- after I come back to school he's got  books and I don't know how many books that the people  borrow out of that store.  I start adding everything  up and I work, just couple of books there and I see  that 50,000 just going out just like that.  Nothing  coming back.  They didn't pay for it what they take.  And I told my father, I said, "You crazy.  Each time  now you see it's back, it's time now to take out your  money and do some business."  The store was in Kitwanga? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  99  Yes.  And he built the biggest house too.  In Kitwanga?  Yeah.  Why did you -- why -- he lived in Mezziadan with your  mother and you for awhile, right?  Yes.  Why did he leave Mezziadan and move to Kitwanga?  No, he didn't move.  That's where he had the house  before -- before we ever born I guess.  He had the house in Kitwanga before you were born?  Yeah.  So did he spend part of the year in Kitwanga?  Not very long that he stayed.  He always go to  Mezziadan.  Who ran the school that you went to?  What school is that?  The school in Sardis, was it a church school?  Yes.  That's the book we got there is marked  Methodist.  Is what?  Methodist.  Methodist?  Yes.  So that's all the books we got in the church  there.  When your father trapped around Mezziadan, did he buy  his supplies in Stewart?  Yes.  Where did he sell his furs, also in Stewart?  In Stewart too.  Well, you see, when the fur buyers,  those trappers come in, he get on the boat from Rupert  and move into Stewart and stay around there until all  the trappers.  Now, you live in Glen Vowell today?  Yes.  You have got a house there?  Uh-huh.  Glen Vowell is a village on the Skeena between  Hazelton and Kispiox?  Yes.  And there is electricity in that village?  Hey?  There is electricity there.  People have electric  lights?  Yes.  People have cars?  Yes.  And there is a road there? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  100  Uh-huh.  There is road that goes off the Kispiox highway?  Yes.  And there is a health centre there?  Yes, there is a health centre there.  Is there a school there?  No.  All the childrens, they have to go on the bus to  go to school.  Where do they go on the bus to school?  Well, when the bus go into Glen Vowel and pick them up  and take them here.  To Hazelton?  Yes.  Now, you told us that the cabins at Mezziadan Lake  were at the outlet above the falls?  Yes.  And that's where your father's log cabin was?  Yes.  Did you ever hear any stories about wars between the  Gitksan and the Stikine people?  Yes.  Who told you those stories?  When I was old enough my father used to tell me about  it.  And there was a battle between Stikine people and the  Gitksan people over the land at Mezziadan, wasn't  there?  Yes.  The people fought with guns?  Uh-huh.  They got guns.  You know, the muzzle loader.  I see one real old one that my father's got.  He's got  one little thing like that outside and that's where  that black powder put in and while that thing goes in  it throws a spark that let's that deal off before it  goes in and then -- they call that gun, you know,  because it throws the spark on the outside and they  call that sim nii mihlit.  That's the name they call  that gun, because you see, it's almost see the flame  outside before it goes in, and that's when the gun  goes off.  And they made their own bullets just like a  marble.  Did your father -- I don't know the people.  Was it  the Gitksan people who were fighting with the Stikine  people?  Yes.  That's the Kitwancool.  Just the Kitwancool people were fighting the Stikine?  Yes.  Well, they have been fighting, I don't know. 101  1 You know, there was -- there is nothing around here.  2 That's why they done that.  They fight for the food.  3 You see, supposing we live here and I got -- I ask  4 them, you know, Kitwancool, well, they got so many big  5 holes around the houses there.  And they tell me after  6 they prepare the fish and things like that, and that's  7 where they put it in the ground and cover it up.  They  8 got all those bushes, you know, those spruce bows.  9 They put the same thing in there to keep it fresh and  10 cover it up so nobody will see.  Because when the  11 Stikine comes, you know, and they start fighting and  12 they all move away and they pick up everything, the  13 food they can find, and they take it.  That's how they  14 get -- because the Stikine, they travel so much.  They  15 don't prepare anything.  They don't -- they just go  16 around looking around for that.  That's what they told  17 me, and then they pick everything and there is --  18 there is another story that my grandfather told me up  19 the Skeena River in Kuldo there, they saw --  20 Q   Yes.  21 A   They saw three people coming and those three only that  22 stay alive and that was Stikine.  They just barely  23 walk because they never ate for so many days.  And  24 they really know how to feed those starving people,  25 too.  They boil those dry fish first.  That's what my  26 grandmother said in Kuldo.  They boil it so long and  27 just the juice.  They took a spoon and poured in those  28 people's mouth, until they get stronger and stronger  29 and then they start to eat the real fish after that.  30 Q   Who won the battle between the Stikine people and the  31 Kitwancool people over Mezziadan Lake?  32 A  Well, they all relatives of Wilitsxw, that's in  33 Mezziadan Lake.  That's in that waterfall in  34 Mezziadan, that's where the Stikine had the  35 smokehouse.  And there is a big one.  There is a whole  36 bunch of them.  So that's before the Kitwancool start  37 that again, so they surrender, the Stikine surrender.  38 So they call everybody.  They going to move away and  39 let -- let them have the place where they stay.  40 Q   Let the Kitwancool people have the place?  41 A   Yes.  Well, you see, my father, he used to sing that  42 song the Stikine sing.  When they move back into the  43 smokehouse, the Stikine was all out.  Just the  44 Kitwancool inside.  And one of them had a fish.  They  45 made the fish with some bark or something and they  46 saying they are moving in with the fish and the next  47 one behind them was that -- they fixed that bone, you 102  1 know, they call it.  They use to gaff just like a  2 gaff.  It's really thin and sharp.  And it's just like  3 a hook.  When you hit the fish it will never pull out.  4 They call it daapxhl.  That's that thing there they  5 use and that's the next one come behind, that fellow  6 that hold the fish.  They sing and dancing too and  7 they give it to Kitwancool, everything that belongs.  8 And around the background that place where the Stikine  9 lives in the ground there, they call that place Lax  10 'wii yip.  Lax 'wii yip because they take in, that's  11 where the Stikine live in the ground.  They got no  12 cabin.  You can see the smoke that only come out of  13 the ground there.  14 Q   They lived in the ground?  15 A   Yes.  They lived in the ground.  On the side hill they  16 dig it in.  17 Q   And that's how the Kitwancool people or your father's  18 people got the territory in Mezziadan?  19 A   Yes.  That's how they got -- they got it, the Stikine  2 0 turned over this to them and then they move away.  21 Q   And that's a story that your father told you?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Did your father or your grandmother ever tell you  24 stories about wars between Stikine people and the  25 Gitksan people who lived up in Kuldo?  26 A   Yes.  That's what I was just telling you, those three  27 that before the time the Stikine started war they  28 got -- they run out of food so they can't fight.  They  29 starve, you know, they have been out for so many  30 months.  31 Q   So did the Gitksan people, the people from Kuldo that  32 is, did the Kuldo people win some of their territories  33 in battles with the Stikine people?  34 A   Yes.  Lots of times.  35 Q   Do you know who any of the chiefs were who won  36 territories?  37 A  Mary Anne was telling me that.  Well, that's too long  38 time ago, I guess, but she just tell me the story that  39 I forgot names of it.  But that's way ahead of that.  40 That belongs to Gyolugyet.  That's a way ahead of that  41 Xsihl Guugan, you know, that big long river, that was  42 Xsihl Guugan.  That's where they meet the -- that's  43 how I find out, you know, this earth is so round.  44 When was that, '7 -- somewhere in '78 when James  45 Morrison, Neil sent us over there, you know, when Neil  46 Sterritt send us over to Iskit.  47 Q   Neil sent you over to Iskit? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  103  Yes.  Is that Neil Sterritt?  Yeah.  That was '79 I think.  He went over there.  That's when I was right and then we went by there the  next day and then we just drive around, then I  recognize one mountain on this side where I said,  "Hey, James," I told him, "I thought we quite a ways  away, but I see we was just moving around like that.  I recognize that mountain."  "You do?"  And he knows  that too.  Because he was trapping there.  So I find  out, I told him why the Stikine fighting our  grandfathers like that, you see, that we so close way  back there.  They not far away from us.  And these were -- you knew this history because Mary  Anne Jack told it to you --  Yes.  -- when you were up on the Xsihl Guugan territory with  you?  Yeah, uh-huh.  That was in 1935, thereabouts?  No.  That's later than that.  I don't know what year.  Well, I'll ask you some questions about that later.  Mr. Benson, do you have a button blanket?  No.  What is a button blanket for?  Well, that -- a button blanket, it's the big chief had  a name, you know, and had some special crest like that  on there.  It's marked on there.  You are pointing on the wall behind me?  Yeah.  There are some blankets on the wall behind me?  Yeah.  Well, there is -- if there is a Wolf, you see,  any kind of a -- the things, that's what I got on the  back.  So the big chiefs have blankets?  Yeah.  Luus got one.  What does he use it for?  Well, you see, like now, you see, if I talk to the  government some says I got to dress up like an Indian  and I'm a chief, I can put that on and talk to you  with some serious, something that's really -- well, I  have seen some of them, they put that on around here.  Just walking around?  No.  When they start talking in the hall or something.  Well, the chiefs wear their blankets in the Feast  hall, right?  Uh-huh.  I forgot where now.  No.  That's when I was 1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  104  in Smithers, we talking to the official.  That's when  her dad Denii was sitting beside me.  He's got all  that things on him.  Is that Alvin Weget?  Yes.  You were down in Smithers with Alvin Weget?  Yes.  And was Alvin wearing his blanket?  Yeah.  Everything he's got on.  He was wearing his blanket because he was talking to  the government?  Yes.  And because it was a serious time?  Yes.  Do the chiefs wear their blankets in the Feast hall  sometimes?  Yes.  When they really got something to do.  Does the blanket help the chief do what he is trying  to do?  Yes.  That's true, because the blanket they got is  really important.  Because, you see, supposing that's  when they do when Luus died, Chris died and all the  chiefs, you know, is supposed to put that on Jeff, so  they got all their own blankets, because just like the  king or the queen when they put the crown on her, so  they grab the two of them, one holding the other back  and they come over here and they put it on the chief  whose going to take the name.  Tie it on and put it on  there.  And that was at the Feast where Jeff Harris became  Luus?  Yes.  Does the blanket give power to the chief?  Yes.  The blanket's got the power.  If the chief is wearing a blanket, do the Gitksan  people look at him and listen to him seriously?  Yes.  That's correct.  That's what they do.  That's  another word.  I am going to tell you why that when  he's got the blanket on he's got the power to give  anything.  One that I see is that when Biiniks gave  that creek, that Xsa galliixawit, to Albert Brown, Wii  'goob'l, that's the name that he gave him.  He's got  that power, that blanket on him and all the names and  the rest of his nephews with him and they got that  blanket and put it upon Wii 'goob'l and that hunting  trapping ground goes with it, with the name.  That's  how we got that name Wii 'goob'l. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  A  13  MR.  PLANT  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  MR.  PLANT  37  38  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  41  MR.  MACAU  42  43  MR.  PLANT  44  45  46  MR.  RUSH:  47  MR.  PLANT  105  Biiniks gave the name Wii 'goob'l to Albert Brown?  Yes.  That's how Albert got that place there, because  he was been with this fellow all the time.  Every time  put up a Feast, Albert always put something in there,  helping him out, so that's why he turned that over to  him.  Because Albert always paid money at the Feast?  Yes.  Does the chief have less power if he's not wearing his  blanket?  Do you mean generally?  No.  Yes.  As a general proposition.  Not that if he's -- if I'm a chief, you see, they give  me a name and all the rest of the high chiefs are  sitting at the head of the table there.  And all the  head chiefs get up and made a speech and they give me  the respect of everything that that's what I spent and  what I do and what I say and they said the same thing  and the next one get up and he say the same thing.  This all head chief in the Feast say the same thing.  Well, after that, you see, even if I got -- I haven't  got the blankets, but they all give me the power to  say anything.  Is there a special power that comes from the blanket?  Yes.  Well, if my head chief get up and talk and like  Gyolugyet now, he used to say that to me in the Feast,  he wants to move out, he said, and he pointed me, "Now  you the one that's going to do the talking to the  chiefs," so I can't move away.  I just got to get up  and start speaking in the Feast, because Gyolugyet  told me to do that.  Who was Gyolugyet in those days?  Well, that's the last time that was Mrs. McKenzie.  :  I propose that we adjourn now since it's just after  four.  We have to adjourn to change the tape anyway,  so let's do that.  Okay.  I would like some idea from you as to just how  long we are going to be.  jAY:  Well, I don't know that.  It depends on what he  covers.  I don't know what he is going to do.  :  I think you were speaking to me in the first  instance anyway.  I think I would occupy a morning  tomorrow.  Okay.  :  That is as flexible as all the other time estimates, 1  2  MR  3  MR  4  5  6  MR  106  but that is my present view.  RUSH:  Okay.  And Jim?  MACAULAY:  I hope to take only a half day, but as I say,  that depends on the content of his cross-examination  and I don't know what that is.  RUSH:  Very good.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  I hope to be.  With any luck we might be finished  8 tomorrow night.  9 MR. RUSH:  Good.  Okay.  10 MR. MACAULAY:  I hope so.  11 MR. RUSH:  If things go as you hope, then maybe we will be done  12 by the end of the day, tomorrow.  Okay.  Very good.  13  14 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL NOVEMBER 26, 1987 AT  15 10:00 A.M.)  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 107  1 November 26, 1987.  2 Ksan Village,  3 Hazelton, B.C.  4  5 MR. PLANT:   This is November 26, 1987 and we are about to  6 commence the third day of the Examination on  7 Commission of Richard Benson.  8  9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT (Continued):  10 Q   Mr. Benson, I want to start by asking you some  11 questions this morning about Xsihl Guugan, Taylor  12 River.  And if I haven't pronounced that properly,  13 perhaps I could get some assistance from Mrs. Sampson.  14 MRS. SAMPSON:  Xsihl Guugan.  Taylor.  15 A   Oh.  That's Xsihl Guugan.  16 MR. PLANT:  17 Q   Do you know the name of that place in -- the white  18 man's name for that river?  19 A   No, I really don't.  All I know is Xsihl Guugan.  20 Q   You've told us that you went trapping there in 1935  21 with Mary Anne Jack?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Who was Mary Anne Jack's husband?  24 A   That was Tommy Jack.  25 Q   Before she married Tommy Jack was she Mary Anne Brown?  2 6 A   Yes.  She was Mary Anne Brown.  27 Q   Now, when you went up to Xsihl Guugan in 1935, where  28 did you get your supplies that year?  29 A   Before I go out, I got it at the Hudson Bay here.  30 Q   In Hazelton?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And I think you told us that you went there in the  33 spring?  34 A   Uh-huh.  Yes.  35 Q   And you said that you trapped martin on this trip?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Do you usually trap martin in the spring or the  38 winter?  39 A   In the winter.  Fall, late in the fall and then  40 through the winter.  41 Q   And in the spring you usually trap beaver?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   When you went up to Xsihl Guugan with Mary Anne Jack  44 in 1935, were you going up to trap martin or beaver?  45 A   Beaver.  We start out early, you know, in those -- you  46 know how the spring when they run, the ice gone faster  47 there. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  4 3 MR.  RUSH:  4 4 MR.  PLANT  45  Q  46  47  A  108  There was --  It opens up faster.  So when you -- you head off there was still ice on the  river?  Yes.  But you were going up in the spring?  Uh-huh.  And you were going to trap beaver?  Yes.  Now, as I understand it, Xsihl Guugan is that river  that flows into the Nass River?  Correct.  The Gitksan have a name for the Nass River.  Do you  know what that name is?  Well, that river we call Xsi Txemsem.  I don't know  why we call it, but I don't see any Txemsem there.  What is Txemsem?  That's the Nass River people.  So does Xsi Txemsem mean river of the Nass River  people?  Yes.  Where did the trapline start on Xsihl Guugan?  Well, it starts right at the junction that Xsihl  Guugan at the Nass River.  Right where the Xsihl Guugan comes into the Nass?  Yes.  We cross there and then there is two traplines.  One on the right-hand side going up, and the other was  on the left-hand side going.  And you trapped on one side and Mary Anne trapped on  the other?  Yes.  I trapped on the left -- I mean on the  right-hand side going up and Mary Anne and her husband  on the left side.  Where did you set your traps?  I remember you told us  that you found the traps up in the trees?  Yes.  And where did you set them?  Were they set along close  to the river?  No.  We set it right under the trees.  That's for --  that's for martin.  Well, now I'm a little confused, because I thought you  said that you went up to Xsihl Guugan to trap beaver.  He also said he went up and did trap martin.  Okay.  If that's so.  Did you go up there to trap  beaver and martin?  Yes.  While we trapping martin there, and then pretty 1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  109  soon as the months goes on it's getting warmer, so the  beaver start opening up, so that's when we start.  Did you trap beaver and martin on this trip in 1935  with Mary Anne Jack?  Yes.  All right.  So first you trapped martin because it's  still cold?  Uh-huh.  And where are the martin traps set?  And by that I  mean where are they set in relation to Xsihl Guugan?  Well, there is hole right here and there is a trail  further up alongside up on the bench on the side  there.  That's -- that's where we set the traps for  the martin.  So there was a trail that went up along the bench?  Yes.  In the spring, you see.  The martin moves up  little higher up on the mountain.  They don't stay  down.  In the fall that's when we were right down  along the river.  But in the spring they are way up  higher.  That's why we go up.  If it's kind of early,,  real early in April, that's when we move further up.  Because the martin get after the blue grouse.  The  blue grouse coming out, so that's why they way up.  And the traps were set along a trail?  Yes.  They just -- in the winter there's just a blaze  there that you follow.  Because there is snow on the ground?  Yes.  There is heavy snow.  And how far away from the river was this trail?  Well, sometimes it quite a ways down, because as we go  up further up there it's pretty wide open place, you  know.  So when you -- when you are down close to the Nass,  was the trail quite close to Xsihl Guugan?  Yes.  Uh-huh.  And as you go further up the river, the trail moves a  little bit further away?  Yes.  Because the place is that flatten out just like  that.  Is Xsihl Guugan a steep valley where it comes into the  Nass?  Yes.  And up further it opens -- it opens out?  Yes.  Mary Anne -- I didn't get right ahead of that  place at that time, because it's kind of late to get  out that time, you know, to trap martin.  So he just  want me to the at the place.  That's why he sent me up 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  110  there.  So you didn't go up very far to trap?  No.  I believe it's just halfway.  Then because it's  getting late to trap martin anyway.  But he wants me  to know the place.  Who wanted you to know the place?  Mary Anne Jack.  That's my auntie.  When you went up Xsihl Guugan to set traps and to get  to know the place, did you camp along the way up the  river?  Yes.  Did you camp with Mary Anne and Tommy -- I am sorry  if I intertupted you.  No.  They cross the river on the left-hand side.  If I  want to know where they are across, because that's  quite a ways, it's a wide river, I fire a shot and  they know what's that means.  You fire a shot to let them know where they were?  Yes.  So I know where they are.  And you were -- when you were going up the right side  of the river, were you by yourself?  No.  I was with Jasper Jack.  And you camped along the way up the river?  Uh-huh.  Let's see.  One -- I think we -- I make two  camps.  One.  The next day we move further up and then  didn't go very far, but next day we just go up and  turn back to the camp again, because it's kind of late  to trap martin.  So how many days did you spend going up Xsihl Guugan?  You know, we trapping there.  It's kind of slow  moving.  So it takes me four days to go up that far.  That's setting traps, you know, as you go along.  So you set traps for four days as you went along?  Yeah.  And were all those traps set on the trail along Xsihl  Guugan?  Yes.  You didn't start setting any traps till you got to the  junction of Xsihl Guugan and the Nass?  Uh-huh.  Right?  Yes.  So you walked four days up the right side of Xsihl  Guugan?  Yeah.  And you were with Jasper Jack?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  111  And you had a camp up there?  Yeah.  And then you went up for a look around one day?  Yeah.  And then you turned around and came back and you  picked up the furs that you caught on the way down?  Yes, some few martins and fisher.  When you were travelling up the river, the Xsihl  Guugan, were you travelling by snowshoe?  Uh-huh.  Yes.  After you came back down -- or let me ask you this.  As you were coming back down did you gather the furs  and pack them down to the bottom of the river?  Yes.  We gathered them and then we go back to our main  camp alongside the Nass River there.  We had all the  stretchers and everything there.  Was that at Win skahl Guuhl?  Yeah.  Uh-huh.  So after you came down Xsihl Guugan, you headed down  the Nass to the camp at Win skahl Guuhl?  Yes.  Where did you meet up again with Mary Anne Jack?  Well, you see, they do the same thing, too.  They come  down after -- that's why we fired those shots, you  know.  We made arrangement first before we start up.  We said, "When you guys going back?"  He said, "You  fire a shot and then we'll answer it and then you know  where you going back."  So they come back, too.  So —  They come all the way down and then we meet together  at the main camp.  You met together at Win skahl Guuhl?  Yes.  When you had your trip up high to look around, was  that with Jasper?  Yes.  And Mary Anne and Tommy weren't there with you?  No.  No.  How far up Win skahl -- Xsihl Guugan did you get with  your traps?  How many miles?  I think we travelled that far.  The way I figured the  way we travelled is in four days is about just about  3 5 mi1e s.  That's based on how much progress you think you would  make every day?  Yes.  You've told us that Xsihl Guugan is Gyolugyet's 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  112  territory?  Yes.  That's right.  How did you learn that?  Well, you see,  I belong to Kuldo, you see every time  when we got together there and in the house they  always lay out the territory, you know.  Where the  certain persons should go, one of his nephews.  Well,  if Gyolugyet's niece happen to marry a good trapper,  well, he got the place for him, too, to go.  Gyolugyet  show him the place where to go.  And at that time they  don't use those steel traps.  They just use the  deadfalls.  And I find out the deadfalls are better  than the spring traps.  When that thing drops that  means dead.  He can't get away.  You are describing the way it was done a long time  ago?  Yes.  Was this before you were born?  Yeah.  That's right.  Who told you that that was the way it was done?  Well, my grandfather and my father.  That's what they  used for the trap.  Who told you that the territory up Xsihl Guugan  belonged to Gyolugyet?  Well, my aunt Mary Anne, she told all the stories and  all the trails.  I even ask her that question, too.  How come that Gyolugyet got so much big territory like  that right from there and go through the Xsa'an Lo'op  and up the Nass and up to the Xsihl Guugan.  Well, he  told me they got so many relatives and things.  He's  the one that's the boss show him where to go.  The  next one over here.  Oh, I see. He goes along, that's  the way it goes.  There is so many there.  So many relatives?  Yes.  The Gyolugyet that Mary Anne Jack was talking about,  was that Joseph Danes?  Hey?  Was Mary Anne Jack telling you about Joseph Danes?  Yes.  Because at the time Joseph was up there, he's  the one that got that name Gyolugyet, because he's a  head man that time, but he had a nice cabin at Xsa'an  Lo'op.  A real good one, too.  Now, where were you when Mary Anne Jack told you about  the Xsihl Guugan territory?  Well, you see, before we start out when we camp at the  main camp that we make there. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  113  Is that Win skahl Guuhl?  Yes.  So that night he start telling me the story  of -- she tell me a lot, but I didn't even remember  half of what.  Well, I just don't care.  I don't know  why -- if I know it's something like this going to  happen, you know, I could have done something about  that, but I don't.  So you were in the camp at Win skahl Guuhl?  Yes.  And that's when Mary Anne Jack told you about the  Xsihl Guugan territory?  Yes.  The whole works.  All the creek below there,  too.  You know those.  I beg your pardon?  Those creeks down below where we camp, there is one  was Xsa'n Yam and the other one was Xsan Gehl Tsuuts.  That's also belongs to Gyolugyet, too.  This was what Mary Anne Jack told you?  Yes.  Did she -- what do you remember she told you about  this Xsihl Guugan territory?  I am just asking you at  the moment about Xsihl Guugan.  What did she tell you  about that territory?  She told me that -- what is that name, that -- I  didn't even see this man, one of our grandfather.  His  Indian name was Yankxws, and there was one more that I  couldn't remember it last night.  I was thinking.  The  only one that she mentioned was the one I just said,  Yankxws.  I didn't even know the English name, because  that's long time ago.  So she told you about Yankxws and somebody else?  Yes.  And what did she tell you about the Xsihl Guugan  territory?  Well, in the first place she mentioned the name of the  one of Gyolugyet's young man right at the head of  Xsihl Guugan.  There was Stikine there, too.  When  they got there and they start fighting just maybe two  or three, four, but this man was -- he made himself  really -- he's going to do something to the fighting  that nobody's going to beat them.  Like what I told  you before, you know, they used that -- all that  stuff, that malgwaasxw and thing.  I don't know how  they use it, but they use it.  So even if I shoot you  the bullet will never hit you.  So they start fighting  up ahead of that place there.  So this man, they beat  everybody.  So that's why the Stikine move away from 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  114  that place.  They don't -- they said they are not  going to come back there any more.  So that place  really belongs to them.  That's how that Xsihl Guugan  belongs to Gyolugyet right through to the head of that  place and next part of it is on the other side.  It  belongs to Stikine.  So they not supposed to come over  to the head of that river any more.  And that still  stands today.  Even Stikine knows that, too.  When we  went to Iskit, there is one old man there, you know.  He told us the same story, too, and he said exactly  the same thing that I know.  He asked me if I do know.  He find out that I belong to Gyolugyet, that's why she  was telling that.  They really nice people now.  Those are the people at Iskit?  Yeah.  They really nice.  Who was the man who did the fighting?  That's that Yankxws.  Yankxws?  Yeah.  That's according my auntie was telling me,  anyway.  She was the one?  And I couldn't remember the other one.  Gee, I'm  awful.  But she just told me once.  That's long time  ago.  She just told you the story once?  Yeah.  A long time ago?  Yes.  But she -- she still supposed to keep on doing  it, but I was away all the time working.  I got a big  family to look after, so I just got to work.  The trip that you took up Xsihl Guugan in 1935 when  you and Jasper were on one side of the river and Mary  Anne and Tommy were on the other, was that the only  time you ever went up Xsihl Guugan?  Yes.  That's only once.  What did Mary Anne tell you -- how did she describe  the location of this territory that was taken from the  Stikine by Yankxws?  Well, they happen to be there at Win skahl Guuhl there  and lots -- is lots of relatives in there and they  start going up there.  That's when the Stikine coming  upon them, attacking them.  She told you the story about the Stikine fighting with  Yankxws?  Yes.  And she told you that that was how Yankxws took that  territory? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  115  Yes.  Did she tell you where that territory was?  Well, she told me that that's up ahead of that Xsihl  Guugan.  So it's up Xsihl Guugan?  Yes.  To the head of Xsihl Guugan?  Yes.  Have you ever been up to the head of Xsihl Guugan?  No.  You didn't get that far?  That's what my auntie wants me to do.  But my partner  Jasper wouldn't go with me.  We not going to do any  trapping.  We just going to travel.  That's why he  doesn't like it.  Do you know who has the territory on the north side of  Xsihl Guugan today?  That's Xsi luu wit wiidit.  Just on the right  right-hand side of Xsihl Guugan.  That's -- that's Xsi  luu wit wiidit, that's Charlie Sampson, that's Niist  territory.  That's on the right side?  Yeah.  That's on the right side of where I was on.  And just the next one belongs to that Shanoss trapping  ground.  That creek is Xsi luu wii t'aagwaxaat.  There  they just told me that.  I wasn't there.  But they  just told me that.  Who told you that?  Mary Anne and Charlie Sampson himself, Niist himself.  That's when Niist told me that that's when I was  trapping with Mary Anne at T'am nihl janda.  You see  we camped together there.  That's when he start  telling me.  That was a few years after you had trapped with Mary  Anne?  Yeah.  That's where that T'am Saabaaya is too.  That's  north.  Saanoos.  What was the name of that place, T'am Saabaaya?  Yeah.  That's that lake there.  Is this Alfred Saanoos?  Yes.  Gee, I forgot the chief name now.  The reason  why I know that place, you know, Saanoos happened to  marry my mother's -- my wife's mother, you see, and my  wife happen to go with her mother and Saanoos up there  and they spent all winter through the winter there and  they came back in the spring.  That's how -- that's  how I know that.  She told me all about those where 116  1  2  Q  3  A  4 MR.  RUSH:  5  A  6 MR.  PLANT  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  they go and Charlie Sampson on the side.  Your wife told you about that?  Yes.  And Charlie Sampson?  Eva.  No.  That's Grace.  Grace told you about this?  Yes.  Because she was just a young girl at the time.  So.  They went out there and stayed -- they went out in the  fall and stayed there all winter while the ice is  still on Skeena and the Nass, so they started home.  They spent all winter out there.  Do you know a creek called Xsa'n Yam?  Yes.  Where is that?  Well, that just below Win skahl guuhl.  Win skahl  guuhl is right here and there is martin over here.  That's where that Xsa'n Yam come into the Nass.  Do you know what the white people call that?  No.  Did you ever go up Xsa'n Yam?  No.  It's not -- well, it's all right in the fall to  trap there, but it's not too far up.  It's not a very long stream?  Yeah.  You could -- while you are still on the Nass  there you can see the head of it.  Whose territory is Xsa'n Yam?  That's Gyolugyet.  How do you know that?  Well, that's -- when I was there Mary Anne show me the  boundary below that.  That's another creek below that.  That's -- oh, gee, I got too many in my mind.  I  forgot the other creeks.  The creek that you are trying to remember, is that a  creek --  Yes.  -- inside Gyolugyet's territory?  Yes.  That's why I try to -- I used to say it a little  while ago.  I got too many creeks in my head now.  How about --  Well —  Oh, I am sorry.  That's true, you know, because you see, I travel all  the way through these place, nobody just -- what I  travel through, that's what I'm telling.  You see, I  walk through, I trap through here, I walk all the way 117  1 through and I know all these place and these mountains  2 and, you see, what they told me that's what I really  3 don't like to tell, you see, because I supposed to  4 tell the truth.  That's what you said when I begin.  5 Nothing but the truth.  That's what -- that's what I  6 am doing.  I don't like what I said, I hardly say  7 anything about what Mary Anne were telling me because  8 she just telling me.  But what I'm getting down now  9 all the way through this, I'm telling what I already  10 been -- I walk through and I see these creeks and I  11 walk through there and I know where they are and I  12 know who it belongs to.  They tell me right beginning  13 before I start even my uncle.  Well, they had a story  14 what's spread out, you know, about Gyolugyet and they  15 start telling me, but I can't remember them all.  But  16 the only thing that I remember that's when I go on it  17 and trap through there and I have been many times on  18 it.  And just that the one I really know, that's what  19 I am trying to tell the truth about it and nothing but  20 the truth.  That's true.  That's what I'm -- I'm doing  21 the best I could.  22 Q   Was it Mary Anne Jack that told you that Xsa'n Yam  23 Creek was part of Gyolugyet's territory?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And you have been up there and you have seen it?  26 A   Yes.  I seen it.  We went by there.  27 Q   On the way to the camp?  28 A   Yeah.  Up to the -- on the Nass River.  Oh, yeah, I  29 remember that creek now.  The one just below there.  30 Xsan Gehl tsuuts.  I remember it now.  That's just  31 below that.  That's the boundary.  32 Q   What boundary?  33 A   Gyolugyet, below that Xsan Gehl Tsuuts.  34 Q   Have you ever heard of Xsi laa damus?  35 MRS. SAMPSON:  That's not the way you spell it, is it?  36 MS. STEVENS:  Xsi laa damus.  37 MRS. SAMPSON:  Xsi laa damus.  38 A   No.  They never told me anything.  Just as far as that  39 Xsan Gehl tsuuts.  4 0 MR. PLANT:  41 Q   What about a -- a mountain called Lip Sganist, does  42 that sound familiar?  And my spelling of it is L-i-p  43 S-g-a-n-i-s-t.  I don't --  44 MR. RUSH:  S-g-a-n.  45 MR. PLANT:  S-g-a-n-s-t.  It's number 111.  4 6 A   I couldn't -- I know I remember that.  Mary Anne  47 mentioned something like that about.  The only thing HE  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  4 0 MR.  RUSH:  41 MR.  PLANT  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  that she really told me when I was with her up there  that it was the really the main part of the hunting  and trapping ground.  That's what she told me, because  she wants me to keep on going there while I'm gone,  she said.  That's why she -- that's why she take me up  there.  But I only go once and that's --.  When she was telling you the main parts, she was  telling you the creeks and the rivers, right?  Yes. Well, you see, the main -- that's why she take  me up to the Xsihl Guugan, because that's the really  most important part -- place to trap. It's rich and  everything. There is game and moose and things like  that.  And so what she told you was that Xsihl Guugan  belonged to Gyolugyet?  Yes.  That's right.  After you came back from Xsihl Guugan and Win skahl  Guuhl in 1935, where did you sell your furs?  At the Hudson Bay here.  Where you got your supplies?  Yes.  Because I got to pay back all that I got out of  there.  The fur buyer -- the Hudson Bay would lend you the  money so that you could buy supplies?  Yes.  And then you would come back were the furs and pay for  your supplies?  Yes.  And if there was anything left over, then you would  get to keep that?  Uh-huh.  You nod.  Is that -- is that because there wasn't  anything left over?  Yeah.  Well, there is something like that, that's why  I quit trapping.  Next time I come back I get nothing.  So —  I got so many hundred dollars I owe the Bay and my fur  was just nothing.  Some system, hey?  That was in 1951?  Yeah.  Oh, gosh.  The prices just dropped?  Yeah.  Into nothing.  I was coming home I figure how  many hundred or thousand -- many thousand dollars I  will get.  I didn't even make a thousand with all the 119  1 furs that I got.  2 Q   I want to ask you about another place that you went  3 trapping now.  You told us that in 1936 you went  4 trapping with Philip Brown and Albert Brown?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And I think you told us that you trapped on a place  7 called Xsi masxwit lo'op?  8 A   No.  The trapping begins at head of that -- what do  9 you call that place now.  Xsa galliixawit.  It's  10 starts like this, you know.  There is a Xsagan Gaksda  11 right here.  12 Q   There is a what?  13 A   Xsagan Gaksda.  That's my own trapping ground and this  14 is just a little creek here.  That's where we go up  15 and not too far up and then we hit the summit and  16 that's the head of that Xsa galliixawit, you see.  We  17 go up here and we go up through the summit up on top  18 here.  That's where the Xsa galliixawit starts.  19 That's where we go down.  And the mountain on the  20 right-hand side there, that's where the one that man  21 stand up right on the peak of the mountain.  They call  22 that Naa'oogil.  23 Q   Naa'oogil?  24 A   Yes.  That's the head of the Xsa galliixawit and goes  25 down and then Xsa galliixawit goes down, that's where  26 we start trapping up on top here and go down and all  27 which -- and then we reach that place, the one that  28 you mentioned, the Xsi masxwit lo'op.  That turns, it  29 comes in like this into the Xsa galliixawit and that's  30 where we go up and below here, that belongs to  31 Baskyelaxha.  32 Q   All right.  Let me stop for a minute.  You go down Xsa  33 galliixawit until you get to Xsi masxwit lo'op?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And then you turned?  36 A   Yes.  You turned left up to this creek.  37 Q   And what's name of the creek that you turn up?  38 A   The one that you just said.  39 Q   Xsi masxwit lo'op?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And on the right side if you are going down the creek,  42 that's Baskyelaxha's territory?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. RUSH:  Which creek?  4 5 MR. PLANT:  46 Q   As you are going down Xsa galliixawit, you get to Xsi  4 7 masxwit lo'op? 1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  2 4 MR.  RUSH:  2 5 MR.  PLANT  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  4 5 MR.  RUSH:  46  4 7 MR.  PLANT  120  Yes.  That's where they call that mountain.  There is  a rock up there, that's that mountain.  That's masxwit  lo'op.  And that's where the creek come from.  That's  why they call that creek Xsi masxwit lo'op.  Does the trapline go up that creek, Xsi masxwit lo'op?  No.  It just doesn't.  But rocks there.  When it comes  down here, but the creek goes this way to the left and  then we go over this mountain here.  That's -- and  then we go down.  Well, they not supposed to go down  because I trap with them.  That's why.  And Win skahl  guuhl, it's right down below there, you know.  That's  Gyolugyet's territory.  But I am with them.  That's  why we have to go down there.  Let me see if I understand this.  You were there with  Phillip and Albert Brown?  Yes.  And you came from the south?  Yeah.  And you climbed up over the top to the head of Xsa  galliixawit Creek?  Uh-huh.  Is that right?  Yes.  He said he climbed over a summit.  Yes.  And on your right was the mountain Naa'oogil as  you climbed over the summit?  Yes.  That's the head of that Xsa galliixawit.  And you travelled down the Xsa galliixawit?  Yes.  Until you got to Xsi masxwit lo'op?  Yes.  And then you turned left and you went up Xsi masxwit  lo'op?  Yes.  We set traps up there all the way up.  But did you set traps up on Xsi masxwit lo'op?  Yes.  Well, that's the day once all day travelling  going up there.  Where was it that the rocks were?  You said something  about the trapping line doesn't go up because it's  just rocks?  Well, that's where that Xsi masxwit lo'op come from.  There is a mountain there called masxwit lo'op.  That's what they call.  I understood that to be the rocks were in the  mountain of masxwit lo'op. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  121  You heard what Mr. Rush said.  Is that right?  That  the rocks up there are masxwit lo'op?  Yes.  And down in the creek Xsi masxwit lo'op there was --  you set traps?  No.  You see, as you come down that mountain there  it's way on the left-hand side.  But way down here,  that's when we climb up and we hit the summit and then  we go over to the mountain and then we hit down and  that mountain is way on the left-hand side.  That's  where we will go down.  Right across from Win skahl  guuhl.  There isn't any moose or anything like that in  Xsa galliixawit, you see.  That's another -- that's  why they take me over down to Win skahl guuhl.  There  is a lot of -- lot of moose down there.  Did you set traps as you were going down Xsa  galliixawit?  Yes.  When did you gather the fur?  Well, every time, every two or three days and then we  go back over it again.  Where was your camp when you were out there with  Philip Brown and Albert Brown?  Well, the -- I think just about halfway after we --  you get down to the head of the Xsa galliixawit,  that's where they had a cabin there.  That's the main  camp.  Did you set traps on the creek called Xsi masxwit  lo'op?  Yes.  As we turn left we start setting traps going up.  About one day's travel, I think you said?  Yes.  Uh-huh.  On which side of the creek were you setting your  traps, and by the creek I mean Xsi masxwit lo'op?  As we going up there it's on the right-hand side.  Who has the territory where Xsi masxwit lo'op flows?  Well, you see, on the left-hand side it's still  belongs to -- gee, I forget Albert Brown's name.  That's Wii 'goob'l?  Yeah.  Yeah.  It belongs that mountain.  But down --  down Xsa galliixawit as it flows down, she got that on  those mountains on both sides.  You can hunt anything  over here and on the side.  Who owns on the right side of Xsi masxwit lo'op as you  are travelling up?  I think it's still Wii 'goob'l's, that creek, but  after go down further there, well, that belongs to 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  Q  47  122  Baskyelaxha.  So if you travelled down Xsa galliixawit, downstream,  you turn left to go up Xsi masxwit lo'op?  Yes.  And there is the left side and the right side as you  go up?  Yes.  Yes?  Uh-huh.  And you have told me that Albert Brown owned or had  the left side?  Yeah.  And I think you told me that you think the right side  was also Wii 'goob'l?  Yeah.  Because you see, the mountains like that, you  know, is nobody can come over here.  Because the  mountain is just like this.  Which mountain is that?  That's Xsi masxwit lo'op.  But I don't know what they  call on this side.  Are you sure about who owns the right side of Xsi  masxwit lo'op as you are travelling up?  Yes.  And are you sure that that's Wii 'goob'l?  Yes.  I am pretty sure, because it's so narrow there,  there is nobody can try to get in there.  Is it pretty steep country up there?  As you go up that creek, no.  Just nice hill to climb.  Is the valley a narrow valley?  Yes.  It's really narrow.  How about the valley of the Xsa galliixawit Creek, is  that a narrow valley?  No.  It's way wider.  So that's why there is beaver  there, too.  The beaver live in the creek itself, don't they?  Yes.  And what were you trapping for when you were up in the  Xsa galliixawit area?  Well, trapping martin.  That was early in the winter.  The creek is nothing you can see.  Where would --  oh, I am sorry.  That's why we -- when the martin -- I think the martin  is almost over and the creek is still not open.  So we  went -- we travelled back home and we know the creek  is starting open, so we come back again for beaver.  When you say you travelled home, where did you go,  over to Win skahl guuhl or back to Kuldo? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  A  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  23  MR.  PLANT  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  26  27  MR.  PLANT  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  30  31  MR.  PLANT  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  123  No.  Right here.  Right in Hazelton.  We come back.  Where was the trapline for martin along Xsa  galliixawit?  Well, just right alongside the creek.  I go down and  set the traps, I can see the creek.  You go down on  the right-hand side.  So you have to cross the creek to go up Xsi masxwit  lo'op?  Yeah.  We cross that creek, yeah.  Cross that creek,  Xsi masxwit lo'op before we go up there.  But we  travel up on the right-hand side.  The one thing I am still not sure about is where  Baskyelaxha's trapping ground is in relation to Xsa  galliixawit and "Xsi lo'op masxwit" or Xsi masxwit  lo'op.  I think you told me that it was down near the  bottom of Xsa galliixawit?  Yes.  And as you are going downstream it's off to the right?  Wait a second.  No.  Just --  Just hold on.  You want to know as you are going  south or downstream?  :  Which is north.  Which is north, right.  As you are going north  downstream Xsa galliixawit is Baskyelaxha on the  right.  :   Yeah.  And I am trying to find out where it is.  I am just suggesting you divide the questions up in  two.  You have got Xsi masxwit lo'op and Xsa  galliixawit.  So Xsa galliiaxwit first.  You go down Xsa galliixawit?  Yes.  From the south and you are heading north going  downstream?  Yes.  And eventually you get to Xsi masxwit lo'op?  Yes.  Which goes off to the left?  Uh-huh.  And that would be west?  Yes.  It's heading west.  Does -- who has the territory on the east side of Xsa  galliixawit at the point where Xsi masxwit lo'op comes  in?  Well, you see, it didn't go to the east.  The Xsa  galliixawit keep heading --.  Oh, that's in -- maybe I 124  1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  2 9 MR.  RUSH:  3 0 MR.  PLANT  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  made a mistake.  Because the Nass River is running  this way and Xsa galliixawit, that's why they call it  Xsa galliixawit.  Because it's going up against --  it's going up and the Nass River is running down.  And  Xsa galliixawit is running upstream of that.  Xsa galliixawit flows into the Nass?  Yes.  After you hit where Baskyelaxha is.  After that hits where Baskyelaxha is?  Yes.  So Baskyelaxha has some of the territory along Xsa  galliixawit?  Yes.  Before you get to the Nass?  Uh-huh.  Correct?  Correct.  Yeah.  That belongs to him.  That's what  they told me anyway.  Who told you?  As I trapped when we go down Xsa galliixawit when we  hit the Xsi masxwit lo'op now we are going to turn up  this creek there.  You see down here, that belongs to  Baskyelaxha.  That's Jack Tait.  But I didn't get a  chance to get down there at all.  And the people who were telling you this were Philip  Brown and Albert Brown?  Yes.  Did they tell you about a creek called Xsi luu  alagwit?  Let me just say it again.  And I'll just give you a spelling.  It's X-s-i 1-u-u  a-1-a-g-w-i-t.  Yeah.  I think I know that.  I heard mention that Xsi  luu alagwit.  That's right, Xsi luu alagwit?  Yes.  Do you know where that is?  No.  I really -- they just -- I heard them keep on  talking about it.  Who kept on talking, Philip and Albert Brown?  Yeah.  Did they mention Xsi luu alagwit?  Yeah.  But they didn't tell you where it was?  No.  Just --.  You told us that Joseph Danes was your uncle?  That's correct. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  125  Do you know how he was related to you?  Well, they both -- I just forget now.  His mother,  yeah, I know, because I heard his mother calling my  mother that's -- that was belonged to them, that's  just like a daughter.  You see, that's what -- that's  what Joseph -- they used to live -- their cabin, their  log cabin still stands up here.  I used to think about  them on -- it's just up here, back here.  Is that a cabin near where we are right now in  Hazelton?  Yeah.  Maybe Wallace Danes doesn't want to tear that  down.  Wallace Danes is Joseph's son?  Yes.  Maybe that's why Wallace leave it still standing  today.  I am not sure I understand your answer about how  Joseph Danes was related to you.  My note is you heard  his mother calling my mother and belonged to them just  like a daughter?  Yes.  And that note doesn't make much sense to me.  So I  have to try one more time.  Well, you see that's my mother was telling me that  Joseph is my -- well, that's my nibip.  That's what  they call it.  That's really my uncle.  That's what  they call it in our language, nibip.  So your mother told you that Joseph was your nibip?  Yes.  And when you use -- no.  Let me put it this way.  As  far as you're concerned, nibip means the same thing as  uncle?  Yes.  Correct.  Now, you told us that Mary Anne Jack wanted to give  you her name, Suu wii gos?  Yes.  She wanted you to take the name after she died?  Uh-huh.  Yes?  Yes.  Was Mary Anne Jack in the same wilp as you?  Yes.  At Kuldo there is, you know, at Gyolugyet's.  I am not sure if you are thinking or waiting for  another question.  No.  I'm kind of waiting and I'm --  Okay.  Oh, yeah.  What I was thinking was I was trying to  remember Mary Anne's father his name.  That's why he 1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  126  lives up there and she get away from us for quite  awhile.  She live with father up to the Skeena there.  That's why I was sitting thinking that to remember.  Her father's name was Wii minosik.  That's Mary Anne's  father.  Is that a Gibuu name?  No.  That's Lax See'l.  Oh.  Yes.  I am sorry.  You said Mary Anne's father?  Yeah.  Right.  As far as you are concerned, Mr. Benson, are Gyolugyet  and Luus in the same wilp?  I really don't know that, because -- well, at Kuldo  there must be, because in New Kuldo that's where I see  they haven't got those old -- old houses, but I think  that must be in the same place, because they do what  Gyolugyet says.  Everyone did what Gyolugyet said?  Yes.  Is that because Gyolugyet was the head chief?  Yeah.  Up at Kuldo?  Yeah.  That's what I mean is the chief over all the  territory that he owns there.  But it must be Luus got  his own house, because he's the one that he's got  places up there, too.  I mean further up.  So —  They call that creek, you know, just below Blackwater  there, Giis gaa 'maalt.  That's what they call that  creek.  That's Luus' creek?  Yes.  That belongs to him.  It doesn't belong to Gyolugyet, does it?  No.  That's way up, that's just below.  He told me  about it, but I never -- I never trapped there.  Who told you about did?  That's Luus himself.  Abel Tait?  Yes.  And my brother Chris Harris did go up there and  trap.  He traps there.  Now --  Because he knows it.  You've called Chris Harris your brother a couple of  times.  Was Chris Harris' mother your mother?  No.  His mother and my mother, they are sisters  together.  And that was the word that you told us yesterday, 127  1  2  A  3  Q  4  MS.  st eve:  5  MR.  PLANT  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  MR.  PLANT  29  30  MR.  RUSH:  31  MR.  PLANT  32  33  34  35  MR.  PLANT  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  hlgiikxw.  Hlgiikxw.  I will never get that one.  Say it again.  Help me.  JS:  Hlgiikxw.  Hlgiikxw?  Oh, that's hlgiikxw.  Thank you.  And when you say that Chris Harris' mother  and your mother were sisters, they were?  Yeah.  Hlgiikxw.  Now, when you say that you and Chris Harris are  brothers, is there a Gitksan word in your mind that  you are using there?  Yes, that's what my grandmother said that she wak.  Wag'n, that's your brother.  You also have some other brothers, one of your  brothers was Fred Benson?  Yeah.  That's my real brother.  And what is the Gitksan word for talking about him?  Is it wag'n?  Yeah.  That's my wak.  So if you were talking about Chris Harris and you were  talking about Fred Benson, your -- you would use the  same word, wouldn't you?  Yes.  That's right.  Because you see, my mother and  Chris' mother were hlgiikxw.  That's the real --  that's the blood sisters.  :  Well, it's quarter past eleven.  Let's adjourn for a  few minutes.  So until 11:25.  :  Fine.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  Mr. Benson, I was asking you some questions about the  Xsa galliixawit territory, which you went to in 1936  with Philip Brown and Albert Brown, correct?  Yes.  Correct.  Yes.  And was that the only time that you ever went there?  No.  Did you go back to Xsa galliixawit?  Yeah.  Many times I went through there.  When did you go back to Xsa galliixawit?  Once.  Again after the flood I went back with Philip  again.  Just to trap.  That was early in the winter.  Was that the year after the flood or some -- some 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  128  years after the flood?  Yes.  That's after the flood.  That's '37.  Did you go back again after that?  Yes.  I went up there again trapping.  That's how I  really know the place, you know, that's how I  understand the names of those mountains.  I understand that Joseph Danes died in 1934.  Do you  know that?  Yes.  I know -- I was there when his funeral.  But I  didn't even remember what year was it once he passed  on.  You remember going through his funeral but you don't  remember what year it was?  Yes.  I understand that after Joseph Danes died, his  trapping territory was divided up?  Do you know  anything about that?  No.  Well, I remember one time there is one year when  Mary Anne call me down.  Maybe that's what you mean.  You see, that's she call me down here.  The game  warden was down and the Indian department.  That's out  in the Gitanmaaxs hall.  That's when my auntie, I  heard my auntie was really mad.  After that she died.  She was speaking that, but I didn't know.  I can't say  anything because she said that I'm not going to let  Wally Danes go up there, she said.  Well, I didn't  understand, nobody told me.  But she called me down.  I think that's what you mean.  That's when they start  divide or something.  I don't know.  And it still keep  on going after that.  I don't really know what's going  on, you know.  But my aunt Mary Anne don't like the  rest of the people, but they still trap though.  Who were the people that your auntie Mary Anne didn't  like?  Well, that's his own.  Well, you see, Ben McKenzie  married Gyolugyet.  Well, Ben's got the rights to go  up there and trap on Gyolugyet's territory.  That's  our -- all these chiefs' custom, you know.  You see,  when I married my wife she told me to go on her  trapline, I can go there.  Nobody can say, well, I  don't know why my auntie don't like Ben McKenzie what  she was up, that's the time I was up there, too.  But  he was up with the other different guy.  That's why  she doesn't like that.  That's Peter Green, that guy's  name.  You spoke about Wally Danes and your auntie was --  No.  Wally never -- never trapped in his life, I don't 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  129  think.  Well, I think you said that your auntie was really  mad?  Yeah.  That was in -- in the hall at the meeting with  the game warden.  That's -- I think that's what you  mean when everything separated and -- that's what they  were talking up there.  Wally Danes was Joe Danes' son?  Yes.  Well, Wally had the rights to go out there, you  know that.  He had the right to go out to that territory?  Yeah.  Up in where his father's cabin is.  His father's cabin was at Xsa'an Lo'op?  Yes.  Did he still have that right to go up there after his  father died?  Yeah.  And there was a meeting at the band -- the band hall,  did you say?  Yeah.  In the Gitanmaaxs hall here that time.  Gee, my  auntie, I don't know, she is really mad.  Wally was  there.  Wallace Danes was there?  Yeah.  Were you there?  Yes.  I was there.  And was the Indian agent there?  Yeah.  And the game warden?  Yes.  And do you know -- well, I guess you told me why  people were there?  Yes.  Your auntie was really mad about whether Wally Danes  could go up there?  Yeah.  She said, "No.  There is no way that I wouldn't  let him."  That's what she said.  Well, I can't say  anything.  I just let her talk.  Do you know anything else about other people getting  parts of Joe Danes' trapline?  No.  There is nobody.  I don't see why it can't be  separated because ever since he died there is nobody  there.  Just except that's when Ben McKenzie was still  strong enough to go, but he has the rights to go  there, because that he married Gyolugyet.  There weren't very many other people to go up there,  were there? 130  1 A   No.  I don't see nobody or anything.  2 Q   My understanding is that this about 1950, which was  3 sometime after Joe Danes died, his old trapping  4 territory was divided up into at least six different  5 traplines.  Do you know anything about that?  6 A   No.  7 Q   And Jonathan Brown got one trapline, Esther Holland  8 got another trapline, Mary McKenzie got another  9 trapline.  Do you know anything about that?  10 A   No.  Well, Jonathan Brown, that's -- that's  11 Wii 'goob'l's territory, the ones he was on.  That's  12 his father Albert Brown.  13 Q   Jonathan Brown's father is Albert Brown?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And Jonathan Brown got Xsa galliixawit Creek  16 territory?  17 A   Yeah.  I see that on the map.  I never heard about it.  18 That's only we had meeting with the Tribal Council  19 that when I see the map that that belongs to Wii  2 0 'goob'l.  21 Q   What map was this?  First of all, when was this  22 meeting with the Tribal Council?  23 A  Well, I don't know.  Because you see, I had -- I  24 belong to the -- to the land claim committee, you see.  25 I was there almost every week.  26 Q   Were you helping with the research of the land claim?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   When was this?  29 A  Well, ever since it start.  At beginning I start out  30 with the Union Chiefs in Vancouver.  31 Q   The Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And then after that you worked as a researcher for the  34 Tribal Council?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   For a number of years?  37 A   Uh-huh.  38 Q   That was a year?  39 A   Yeah.  Gee, my wife don't like it after I get on with  40 the Union Chiefs got ahold of me, you see, because I  41 never stayed home.  I travelled.  All over B.C. here.  42 Q   What kind of work were you doing as a researcher for  43 the Tribal Council?  44 A  Well, you see, because like what I'm doing now, I  45 understand what they are getting -- want to get is all  46 the names of all those different little creeks on the  47 map and everything on it. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  131  Did you help make the maps?  Yes.  If the map is no good I say that's not right.  Because like what I told you, I travelled through  there and I know I see them and --  Who were you helping make the maps with?  There was only once that one fellow get ahold of me  and I don't know.  Somebody told him that I know one  place.  That's in Ottawa.  So I was in the secret room  there.  I don't know how long I was there.  Did you help make maps here in Hazelton?  Yes.  Only the place that I really know.  That's I  really know that, so I can place the things.  That's  the one that I -- and I told -- I still got quite a  few at home there that I really turned.  That's Tribal  Council make those and I told them that's no good for  anything.  There is two of us really understand the  grounds that we on was one of them was James Morrison  that I work with, because he knows on the Skeena side  because that's his father, that's why they trap.  That's James Morrison.  Waiget's the name of his  father, James' father.  And he had a trap.  He went  trapping every year.  That's how James knows all these  mountains.  That's why they use us.  And you knew the territory that you have been telling  us about, Xsa galliixawit Creek and --  Yes.  The Nass River and Xsihl Guugan?  Yes.  And so on.  Well, I might ask you to look at some maps  in a few minutes, but I want to ask you some questions  about something else first.  Mr. Rush asked you if you  trapped with your uncle Abel Tait after 1944 and I  think you said yes.  Yes.  And your uncle Abel Tait was your mother's older  brother?  Yes.  That's right.  And I understand that Abel Tait died in 1946?  Uh-huh.  That's right.  Did you trap with him between 1944 and 1946?  Yes.  I -- maybe before that sometimes.  Yeah, in '40,  I remember that, I was trapping with him in the fall.  In 1940?  Yes.  That's when I go up with him on his trapline.  But I didn't get -- we didn't get to the head of it,  though.  He just show me that place.  He point place  that where there is creek they called the one that he 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  132  were put down Xsa'an skeexs.  That was his territory up the Skeena north of Kuldo?  Yes.  Way up the head of Skeena.  Well, I don't know  anything up that place.  Never been there.  After your uncle Abel Tait died, why didn't you get  name Luus?  Well, that's my really uncle.  He himself was telling  me.  I don't know why it's -- don't -- don't get it,  he told me.  Well, that's why I said no at the meeting  there.  That's quite good the way you asked me that  question, because at Feast after my uncle died, you  know, at the Feast -- when the big chiefs that's  speaking and that's what they said.  There is a man  here that really belongs to that.  He should get that  Luus .  That was your --  Yes.  But I don't want to.  I don't know.  My uncle  told me that himself.  I didn't ask him why.  But you  got the power to do anything on -- on my ground, he  says.  Like what you do to Gyolugyet, that's you going  to do over here.  So you had the right to go on your uncle's trapping  ground?  Yes.  And Chris Harris got the name?  Yeah.  You didn't want the name?  Yeah.  Well, you see, before the names the chief do  something for you in the early days.  But now, you  see, this big chiefs amongst us now, they just like  any other people, ordinary people.  But before  anywhere they go, what they do is pretty well  respected.  When you see the big man coming, that's  Geel, he's a head man in Kispiox.  They bow down  before him.  That was before the European comes  around.  They bow down, and the kids played around  when they see this big man coming, the grandfather  told them what to do.  When they see him coming they  get out of the way and let him walk.  They just like a  king or something like that, the way they treat them.  Even in the Feast.  But they have a strict rules, you  know, if one chief sit -- I forgot who, maybe that's  you I told -- the map like the one they got.  That's  the one that's spread out in the Feast.  The chief's  got his own place there.  This was before you were --  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  133  -- born?  Yes.  That's before I was even -- no.  My grandfather  or grandmother told me that.  Before when you entered  the Feast he said, "When I put you down after I got  the name, when they put you down there you sit down  and you are not supposed to move."  I laughed now  there is only sit here is a big chief, I make him sit  down.  Sometimes he get up and go out some place or  maybe talk to somebody.  There is one white fellow  that his name was Captain Douglas.  Kliiyem lax ha  gave him the name, but he used to go into the Feast,  you know, the place, Kliiyem lax ha's table.  Every  once in awhile he get up, you know, and get around in  the hall.  Well -- and he didn't like it.  I can see  it.  "Hey," I said, I told him the rules of the chief.  Well, the chief told you putting down, that's where  you are going to stay.  You are not supposed to get up  and get around just like -- just like a party or  something.  The Feast is different, I said.  When they  put you down, that's where you are going to sit.  And  not to move.  Did you trap at Xsagan Gaksda with your uncle Abel  Tait?  No.  He didn't go, no.  Xsagan Gaksda is the name of the big creek that flows  into the Skeena downstream from Kuldo, correct?  Yes.  Did your uncle Abel Tait ever talk to you about that  territory?  Yes.  But he never been there.  And you never went out to that territory with him?  Yes.  There is one -- well, that's kind of late in the  spring.  He just want to go up there.  He told me that  you know the place, he told me.  I said, "Yes."  Gee,  I like to just go up there, just to look around.  That's after almost the trapping is over.  I said,  "Okay, we'll go."  So I take him up to that creek.  Who taught you about the Xsagan Gaksda territory?  That's -- that's another of my uncle that -- I think I  forgot his big name now.  That's Esther Holland's  sister.  That's her brother.  That's Mathias Wesley  his name.  It was Mathias Wesley who taught you about the Xsagan  Gaksda territory?  Yes.  That's belongs to him.  Gee, I couldn't remember  that man's name.  Well, he died somewhere in the  thirties. 1  Q  2 MS.  st eve:  3  A  4  5  6  7 MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  134  Did he have the name Hlo'oxs.  JS:  Hlo'oxs.  Maybe.  I think it's -- yeah.  Oh, yes, I remember  now, that's, you know, when Mary Anne was telling me  about Xsihl Guugan, she mention that one of that name,  too.  Hlo'oxs.  Mary Anne told you about that name?  Yes.  Did you ever speak with Mathias Wesley?  He only speak with me once.  I met him.  He's from  Hazelton and I was coming down to town.  We just  walking at that time.  He talk to me for a long time.  Do you remember when this was?  That's somewhere around in the thirties.  Either '31  or '32.  That's just before she died.  Just before Mathias Wesley died?  Yes.  Did he tell you about the Xsagan Gaksda territory?  Yes.  Because he heard I was with Philip.  Well, I  didn't know.  I thought that place belongs to Philip.  But he wants to get up there and trap those beaver  that he saw when he went through coming home.  Well,  that's in the '30 — '31 that time.  I didn't — I  never been there and I don't know anything about that.  They told me lots of things but I wasn't there and  when I was up the Xsagan Gaksda, I didn't know that  belongs to this man.  But Philip knows that they can't  say nothing to him if he take me along, because that I  didn't know that.  But I trapped with him for beaver  over there.  You —  That's -- that's why when I met Mathias and he told me  about that place, you know.  Xsagan Gaksda?  Yeah.  That time they had a strict rules of anything,  but Philip knows -- I didn't know anything.  Knows  that I really belongs to Gyolugyet.  And I didn't know  what's going on.  But he take -- that's the reason why  he take me out there and that's what Mathias told me  when he met me there.  That belongs to him.  "If it  wasn't for you," he said, "we could have put that guy  in j ail."  Could have put Philip in jail?  Yes.  Now, have you been out there with Philip?  We are going to take all the furs away from him.  And 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  135  throw them in.  Well, that's what they do at the time.  The game warden was with him.  But it's you, that's  what he said to me.  See, you go with him.  That's  what stopped me.  I can't say.  Can you remember the first year that you went out on  the Xsagan Gaksda territory?  Yeah.  That's in 1930.  And who did you --  I was really young.  I don't hardly know anything.  I  thought that place was belonged to Philip.  Were you up there with Philip?  Yes.  He's the one that take me.  Did he tell you about the territory?  No.  He never said, because that thing didn't belong  to him.  So he didn't tell you anything about it?  No.  Did you go up the creek with him?  Yeah.  I go up the creek and trap beaver.  Boy, lots  of beaver at that time.  Even during the day you can  see them going around.  We just over there one week  and we got enough.  So we came home.  How far up Xsagan Gaksda did you go?  Well, as far as the one I tell you, that Luu lax an  mihlit.  Is that the big open place?  Yeah.  Big open.  That's where all the beavers were.  So you trapped the beavers at this big open place?  Yeah.  Did anyone ever tell you about a creek called Gwiis  xsagan gaksda?  Yes.  Did you ever travel up there?  No.  No.  That belongs to marsh right alongside above.  There is a big flat down here and there is mountain  there.  They call that mountain anx Xsan and there is  that creek down here Xsi gwin sdi'moon.  That's where  the cabin is.  That's Ma'uus cabin on top there and he  trap over there until he hit Xsagan Gaksda.  And turn  left and they go up and they reach that Gwiis xsagan  gaksda and they go up on the trap.  They trap there.  Now, who -- is Ma'uus that owns the territory Gwiis  xsagan gaksda?  Hmmm?  Ma'uus, yeah.  That's right.  Does he own both sides?  Yeah.  Both sides of Xsagan Gaksda, but it runs this  way.  Xsagan Gaksda kind of run this way.  And that 136  1 little one goes up.  I never been up there, because  2 that's belonged to the different.  3 Q   To Clifford?  4 A   Yeah.  5 MS. STEVENS:  To different.  6 MR. PLANT:  7 Q   When you say the little one are you talking about  8 Gwiis xsagan gaksda?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Does the word Gwiis mean little?  11 MRS. SAMPSON:   Yes.  That's what it means.  Gwiis xsagan  12 gaksda, that means little.  13 MR. PLANT:  14 Q   There is another creek up Xsagan Gaksda or near Xsagan  15 Gaksda anyway called Xsagasuu?  16 A   Yeah.  That's on the right-hand side going up.  17 Q   Does that have -- do the white man have a name for  18 that?  19 A   I don't know.  20 Q   And does that creek flow into Xsagan Gaksda?  21 A   Yes.  That's right.  22 Q   Did you ever go trapping up Xsagasuu?  23 A   No.  It's just a small little creek that's come up on  24 this mountain here.  It comes down.  Really steep.  25 Q   Whose territory is Xsagasuu?  26 A  Well, that's still belongs to the Xsagan Gaksda.  27 That's Gyolugyet.  Well, Gyolugyet had the trail.  28 That's what they told me they had the trail right up  29 on the mountain there.  Well, there is no trees.  30 That's how they travel in the summer.  Going over  31 to -- they all travel through the mountain to go over  32 to the -- to the main camp at Win skahl Guuhl from  33 Kuldo to the mountains and they go -- they can make a  34 shortcut going through there.  35 Q   Who told you this?  36 A   They all told me.  There is only one place that is no  37 trees.  Just grass and steep and they make some kind  38 looks like a step, step ladder.  Not a step ladder.  39 Just a stairway going up on that hill.  My auntie told  40 me that, but I never see it.  41 Q   That's your —  42 A   She told me where it is.  43 Q   That's your auntie Mary Anne Jack?  44 A   Yes.  That's how -- that's how your grandfather  45 travelled.  She said to come over here in Win skahl  46 Guuhl.  That's in the summer.  Because they got no  47 trail or anything, but down below there is really 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  137  rough.  Down in Xsagan Gaksda --  Yes.  -- is a rough country?  Yes.  Did you trap martin and fisher up Xsagan Gaksda?  Yes.  A lot of fishers up there.  Where did you set the trapline?  Right up along the river there.  Did you ever go up as far as the lake Da'm Ansa  Anguas?  Yes.  We just go -- boy, that Xsagan Gaksda runs in  like this, you know, and Da'm Ansa Anguas kind of  turns this way.  Well, I didn't trap up there.  I  follow over here to Xsagan Gaksda on the right-hand  side.  It's not so rough after you got further up on  Xsagan Gaksda.  But right after get into the -- that  second cabin where Xsagan Gaksda comes in on the  telegraph line, second cabin is right here and the  river that runs right below that.  Is that the Skeena?  Yes.  That's the Skeena.  And you would trap up Xsagan Gaksda?  Yes.  And then --  I have to cross Xsagan Gaksda and go up the hill here  about two, three miles and then turn left, because  down there is the canyon.  That's really rough going  up there.  But that's why I made that trail further  up.  After you get up there it's better.  Now, I think told me that you went as far as Da'm Ansa  Anguas, but I am not sure if I heard that --  No —  -- properly?  -- we didn't.  I went around it, but I wasn't trapping  there.  You were just travelling there?  Yes.  I just want to see where the boundary is in the  middle of that lake.  Did you see the boundary?  Yes.  What was the boundary?  Well, there is a creek there, runs like this, you  know, and they fix something right there in the  middle.  That's their old paint they made for.  Gee, I  was surprised to see it's still on there for hundreds  and hundreds of years.  And there is another creek, 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  2 6 MR.  RUSH:  27  28  29  3 0 MR.  PLANT  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  138  little blue across that lake, that's where there is  another one there.  That's those old people's  boundary.  That belongs to -- right ahead of -- and  there is another creek runs out there.  That's where  the Kispiox come from.  That's the head of Kispiox.  Just a small little creek.  Who owns that little creek?  Well, you see, there is a lake in Lax dii T'ax.  I  think that belongs to Lax dii T'ax.  That's William  Stevens.  Gee, I forgot his chief's name.  I know it  hundreds and hundreds of chiefs and --  You don't have to worry about that.  Yeah.  What is Lax dii T'ax?  Is that the name of the -- a  house?  No.  That's the name of that lake.  Ah.  Lax dii T'ax means there is so many -- so many lakes  there.  Right over there, there was another lake, but  that one belongs to Kitwancool.  That's what they call  that lake now?  Majiigoogit.  That's that lake on the  other side.  That belongs to Kitwancool.  When you travel upstream up Xsagan Gaksda, which side  of the stream -- well, maybe it's both sides.  Is it  Gyolugyet's territory?  Well, just hold on.  Just excuse me.  Maybe you  should just rephrase the question.  The problem that I  had with that is that you started off which side of  the steam and you said well, maybe it's both sides.  :  Well, that's fine.  Let him tell me.  Is it one side?  Is it both sides?  It's on both sides.  There is the boundary on this  side and the same on this side.  What's the boundary on the left side?  On the left side there is a mountain there.  There is  no creek or anything, but that's the whole mountain.  Well, it's pretty steep and rough there.  There is  nobody can travel through there.  What's the boundary on the right side?  Well, there is a boundary on the right side is the  same thing, the whole mountain and just on the other  side of this mountain like the head of that Xsa  galliixawit, you see that's where Naa 'oogil's right  here and the mountain goes this way and that's where  that Xsi laa dims starts.  And it goes way down and  then it -- I think it goes down somewhere in third  cabin. 139  Well, on the right side the boundary goes up to the  mountain or close to the mountain Naa 'oogil?  Yes.  Okay.  When you trapped on Xsagan Gaksda, where did you sell  your furs?  At the Bay.  Here in Hazelton?  Yes.  Did you --  There used to be three buyers here.  The Hudson Bay  and that man used to own the store here, that was  Dawson and then Dick Sergeant.  Did you ever pay anyone any rent for using that  trapline?  No.  That was the line up Xsagan Gaksda was the trapline  that you registered in --  Yes.  — in about 1950 or '51?  Yeah.  When Chris Harris phoned you?  Uh-huh.  Right?  Yes.  That's right.  And Chris Harris had registered that trapline before  you?  Yes.  Did Chris Harris ever show you a map that he made of  the territories of the Gitksan people from Kuldo?  No.  Did you ever have a map of the trapline that you  registered?  No.  The only map I got on it is the one that I make  myself.  When did you make that map?  Well, I made it -- I draw it out of that the way that  creek runs.  Do you still have that map?  No.  I couldn't find it.  Because, you see, when I  repaired the house and those things are moving around.  Mr. Benson, I've got a document here I'd like you to  look at.  It's a photocopy of the application for  registration of a trapline and I'd like you to look at  the first page of that.  46 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Just a moment.  47 MR. PLANT:  Near the bottom.  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45 140  1  MR.  RUSH:  2  3  MR.  PLANT  4  MR.  RUSH:  5  MR.  PLANT  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  8  9  MR.  PLANT  10  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  13  14  15  MR.  PLANT  16  17  18  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  MR.  PLANT  21  22  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  MR.  PLANT  25  MR.  RUSH:  26  MR.  PLANT  27  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  30  31  MR.  PLANT  32  33  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  MR.  PLANT  36  37  38  39  40  MR.  RUSH:  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MACAU  Do you have the whole file that this was taken from  with you?  I am sure that the whole file is produced.  Do you have it with you?  I don't know.  Okay.  Because I'd like before you put this to him if  you would show me the balance of the file that this  comes from.  I am afraid I don't understand why.  All at this  point I am putting is the application form.  Well, I know.  But the application form might have a  back side.  It might have been appended to something.  It might have been attached to something.  I don't  know that.  Well, what you have is a three-page document, Mr.  Rush.  The first page is the photocopy of the front of  the application form.  The second is a photocopy of  the back.  So far as I understand it.  And what's the third.  And the third is a document that probably is the  only other document in that file, but I can't say for  sure.  Well, I can't either.  Uh-huh.  Well —  So what I --  Maybe the witness can,  that I am asking about.  Well, maybe he can, but  because it's his signature  I would like to know before  anything you put before the witness what else is in  the file.  Mr. Rush, you are certainly entitled to and long  since have made demands for production of that entire  file.  Do you have the file with you?  All I have comes from that file is the three pages  that you have with you, you have in front of you.  So  I'm asking that the document that has the first -- the  first page of that document be put in front of Mr.  Benson to see if he can identify his signature.  All right.  Well, I'm -- I'm asking you to produce  the balance of whatever this came from and if you can  show me that, then I don't have a problem with this,  but I want to know what configuration this document  took in the file that you drew it from.  Obviously  it's a file from something in your records.  So I'd  like to see that if I can.  jAY:  Perhaps I can help.  I asked for a copy of that 141  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 MR. PLANT  10  11 MR  12  13  14 MR.  15 MR.  16 MR.  17  18  19  2 0 MR.  21  22 MR.  2 3 MR.  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  2 9 MR.  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  4 3 MR.  44  45  46  47  file from the Province of their file.  And I assume  that we got the full contents of their file.  And the  contents consist of the obverse and reverse of an  application for registration dated the 6th of  September, 1950, and a note with the name Benson,  Richard, of Glen Vowell ISF licence, and it gives a  number, assisting Alice Williams and Co., and there is  a latitude and a longitude and application number.  Well, I think those are the three documents that Mr.  Rush has in front of him.  MACAULAY:  I take it the Province complied with our request  for their file from their Benson file, this must be  it.  RUSH:  Okay.  You wouldn't mind my having a looking at it?  MACAULAY:  No.  PLANT:  The file that Mr. Macaulay has is so far as I am  aware the file for registered trapline 630T018, a  document which I must hasten to add was produced many  months ago for the plaintiffs.  RUSH:  Well, I'm really glad you hasten to add that.  That  was --  PLANT:  Good.  RUSH:  -- most grateful of you.  PLANT:  I think we have to adjourn at this point because we  are about out of video tape.  PLANT:  Q  RUSH:  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  Mr. Benson, before we broke for the luncheon  adjournment, I was proposing to put a document in  front of you which is a photocopy of -- well, it's a  three page document.  The first page is the photocopy  of the front side of the application for registration  of a trapline.  The second page as I understand it is  the back side and the third page is a photocopy of a  separate document from the same file which is one of  the trapline files.  And your counsel and I had a  little discussion about whether that would be an  acceptable thing to do.  And as I understand it, Mr.  Rush, you are not objecting to my putting this  document in front of Mr. Benson at this point?  Well, I wasn't objecting necessarily before.  I  simply wanted to have a look at the file upon which --  from which it was taken.  And after discussion with  yourself and after having looked at the file provided  by Mr. Macaulay, I don't have any difficulty in your 1  2  3 MR.  PLANT  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  2 3 MR.  RUSH:  24  25  2 6 MR.  PLANT  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  4 7 MR.  PLANT  142  putting this document to Mr. Benson.  So go right  ahead.  :  Thank you.  Mr. Benson, could you look at the first page of that  and tell me if you recognize your signature down near  the bottom?  Yes, I do.  Do you remember signing the application or signing an  application form for the registration of a trapline?  Yes.  And the circumstances were that Chris Harris wanted to  transfer the registration of that trapline to you?  Yes.  That's correct.  And did you attend at the game warden's office to sign  that form?  At the time there wasn't any game warden around at the  time.  Just the Indian agent.  So did you sign the form at the Indian agent's office?  Yes.  Do you remember reading the description of the  boundaries of that trapline?  Yes.  Maybe that should be pointed out to him.  You are  referring to something in specifics on the document,  are you?  :  Yes.  There is about halfway, two-thirds of the way down the  front of that document, if I could just have a look at  it, I'll point out what I'm talking about.  It's a  typewritten part that begins after the words  "Geographical description of trapline" and I'm just  pointing it out there.  It says, "commencing on the  west bank of the Skeena River."  And my question is  whether you remember having discussed that boundary as  it's described there with anyone at the time that you  signed this?  No.  We never do discuss it, but it's already  discussed with me that I had to register -- I didn't  know my brother was registered that place, but my  uncle and Gyolugyet, they discussed everywhere the  boundary there is on this.  And that's what they said  to me that you know and understand where to go and  which place.  I said, "Yes," that's why I signed that.  When you talk about your brother you are talking about  Chris Harris?  Yes.  :  Let's mark the document which has the three pages -- 143  1 MR.  MR.  MR.  RUSH:  PLANT:  RUSH:  MR. PLANT  9  10  11  12 MR.  13 MR.  14  15  16 MR.  17  18  19 MR.  2 0 MR.  21  22 MR.  23  24  25  26  2 7 MR.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Now he's identified the face page.  Yes.  I don't --  You tell me that the second of the two pages is the  back of that document on the original?  Yes.  And the third page is a -- as I understand it,  a photocopy of a separate document in the file.  He  hasn't identified that, nor do I think he would be  able to, as I believe it's purely an internal  document.  It's indifferent to me whether the -- it's  the first two pages get marked or the first three.  Do  you have a preference?  Well, I think maybe --  MACAULAY:  The front of that document grins through, if I  can use that expression, on the photocopy of the back,  so you can --  Well, I don't have -- I think we are all working on  the assumption that page two is the back of the  front --  Yes.  -- document with the signature.  I think maybe we  should just mark the first two pages.  All right.  I will take the third page off and let's  mark the first two pages.  RUSH:  RUSH:  PLANT:  RUSH:  PLANT:  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  (EXHIBIT 3:  Two pages document,  registration of trapline)  Mr. Benson, I asked you before lunch whether you ever  paid rent for the Xsagan Gaksda territory and you have  said no?  No.  Do you remember that?  Yeah.  That's true.  Did you -- I am sorry, were you about to say  something?  No.  Just go ahead.  Did you ever give anyone furs from that territory  apart from the fur buyer?  No.  But at the trapline where my uncle is, when he  haven't got what I got, so I give him something, you  know, to turn over to him.  Which trapline was that?  That was on mine and he didn't get what I got on this  one, so -- because we stay together in Kuldo there.  You gave your uncle some furs?  Yes.  And this is Abel Tait? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22 MR.  RUSH:  23  2 4 MR.  PLANT  2 5 MR.  RUSH:  2 6 MR.  PLANT  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  144  Yeah, that's Abel Tait.  And where did those furs come from?  His own trapline across the river there.  Is this the trapline on the east bank --  Yeah.  -- of the Skeena?  Yeah.  That's Luus' territory.  And that's where you took -- that's where you got the  furs that you gave to your uncle Abel Tait?  No.  I got it on my own up the Xsagan Gaksda, you see,  that's where I trap.  There is lots of fish on there  and they haven't got it over there.  Maybe once in  awhile he caught one.  That's the reason I got too  many, so I gave him one when they haven't got it.  So you gave your uncle a fisher --  Yes.  -- that you had trapped on Xsagan Gaksda?  Yes, that's right.  Because he wasn't able to get any from his territory?  Yes.  They are not very many there.  Only very ones  that he caught.  I understood his evidence that he gave him fisher and  your question back to him was a fisher.  :  Oh, I am sorry.  I may have heard something different if you --  How many fisher pelts did you give your uncle?  Well, he haven't -- he only got one, so I just give  him one, so that's on the way home.  Was that the only time that you ever gave anyone any  furs?  Yeah.  From Xsagan Gaksda?  Yeah, that's right.  Did you ever trap on Xsa'an Lo'op?  No.  No.  Does that have a name?  Do the white man call that  something?  I don't know.  I never heard anything.  Only thing I  know is Xsa'an Lo'op.  Have you ever heard that called Shanalope Creek?  Yeah.  That's what they said sometimes.  That's white  people.  Have you ever trapped on Xsi andap Matx?  No.  Have you ever travelled on Xsi andap Matx?  Well, we went by there sometimes and that's how they 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  145  told me.  And who told you?  Well, anybody that I am with.  Sometimes I am with  Philip and Mary Anne.  What did they tell you?  Well, they just tell me the name of that place and  that's all.  Does that have another name in Gitksan?  I don't know.  I don't know about that.  Do you know what the white people call that creek?  No.  Have you ever trapped on Xsan To'op, X-s-a-n  T-o-'-o-p?  No.  Xsa'an Doo'oo?  No.  I never trap on that.  Have you ever travelled up there?  Yes.  Somewhere we just -- they just show me the  place.  As you were walking by?  Yes.  Does that flow into the another creek or river?  I really don't know that, because there is lots of  places that I really don't pay attention to anything  that's —.  You know if the white people have a name for Xsa'an  Doo'oo?  No.  You don't know?  No.  Now, Mr. Benson, I want to ask you some questions  about the affidavit which is Exhibit 2 in this  examination.  I'd ask to have a copy put before the  witness.  Well, actually I can give you my copy.  It  doesn't have anything on it.  You remember telling us  about this affidavit yesterday?  Yes.  Do you remember signing it?  Yes.  And you swore that it was true when you signed it?  Yes.  That's right.  When you signed it, did you read it?  Yes.  I do.  And did you understand it?  Yes.  When -- what's that one that -- I went through  twice, I think, before I signed it.  And she asked me  if it's really true.  As I look it over.  And I said 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  146  yes .  And you say she asked you.  Are you referring to  Shirley Meldrum?  Yes.  That's true.  I was with her I don't know how  long, maybe two, three hours.  Did you write this affidavit?  Not write it.  I was speaking through the -- through  the tape.  It's right set in front of me and I was  talking.  What did you talk about on the tape?  Well, that's what we got on here.  They asked me and I  tell them what I know.  You have talked about the territories?  Yes.  And then Shirley Meldrum brought the affidavit to you?  Yes.  And you read it over?  Yes.  And we talk over it.  And after two or three hours --  Yes, that's -- that's --  -- you signed it?  Yes.  Did you have any help from anyone in describing the  boundaries of the territories in that affidavit?  No.  No.  Not -- I have to tell -- like I told you  before, I have to tell what I really know and  understand.  What I know that's what I tell -- I go  through that with that tape.  They told me before,  before I started, so --.  In paragraph three, which is on page two of the  affidavit, you say "I have obtained permission from  Mary McKenzie, Gyolugyet, a plaintiff in this action,  to describe and speak in respective Xsagan Gaksda  territory owned by the House of Gyolugyet."  Do you  see that?  Yes.  When did you get that permission from Mary McKenzie?  This one time that when we talk about it at the  meeting, there is too many meetings I got here and I  don't know what's -- which one.  She told me to tell  everything that I know where I have been, because she  knows that I've been walking through there all the  time, you see.  That's why she give me the permission  to describe all these boundaries and everything on  there, "because you been there and I don't," she said,  "so it's up to you to do that."  Was this meeting within the last few months or the 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  147  last year?  That's a few years back when they start talking.  Can you remember how many years back it was?  I really don't know.  Must be about two or three years  ago.  In paragraph four you say, "I was instructed about the  Xsagan Gaksda territory and its boundary by Abel Tait,  the former Luus, and Philip Brown, the former Giis  gyo'o."  I can't read my copy of it, "a member of the  House of Gutginuxw who married into the House of  Gyolugyet."  Do you see that?  Yes.  Now, my recollection was you told me this morning that  you did not learn about the Xsagan Gaksda territory  from Abel Tait?  No.  So that's wrong, isn't it?  Yes.  And the person that you really learned about Xsagan  Gaksda territory from was Mathias Wesley?  Correct.  You didn't learn about it from Philip Brown either?  No.  Because you see I forgot first name now.  Because  he owns that.  He traps there.  That's Mathias Wesley?  Yes.  All his life.  I go see Kwamoon there once.  That's Peter Robinson.  When did you see Peter Robinson there?  He lives in Kitsegukla down below here.  But he really  belongs to Gyolugyet.  And did you see Peter Robinson on the Xsagan Gaksda  territory once?  Yes.  Do you remember when that was?  That's quite awhile back.  I was really young at the  time.  Now, in paragraph five you are talking about the  boundary of the Xsagan Gaksda territory and you say,  "At the beginning this territory begins on Xsagan  Gaksda (Kuldo Creek)."  Now, just stopping there for a  minute.  You told me earlier that you didn't know the  English name of Xsagan Gaksda?  No.  So you say, "This territory begins on Xsagan Gaksda  about three miles from its output into the Xsan," in  brackets Skeena River.  "The boundary runs up Xsagan  Gaksda and up Xsi ansa angwas."? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  148  Yes.  Now, I think you told me this morning that Gyolugyet  owns the territory on both sides of Xsagan Gaksda?  Yes.  That's right.  So the boundary isn't on Xsagan Gaksda, is it?  No.  The boundary's on both sides of that creek.  Is the boundary on the mountains on the left side?  Yeah.  It's at the top of the mountains?  Yes.  So the affidavit is wrong there, isn't it?  Yeah.  I want to show you a map, Mr. Benson, and ask you if  you have ever seen this before.  I'll tell you that  this map was produced at the trial in Smithers in the  spring and it was described as a map of the territory  of Gyolugyet?  Yes.  Have you ever seen this map?  No.  They never show me this before.  For the record, the map that I have just shown to Mr.  Benson was marked trial Exhibit No. 7 for  Identification.  And you say you've never seen that  map before?  No.  Have you ever seen a map of the territory of  Gyolugyet?  Yes.  Neil show me one.  Well, I have another map.  You say Neil, do you mean  Neil Sterritt?  Yes.  I have another map here which I want to ask you to  look at.  Is that the map which Neil showed you?  Yes, I think so.  Because I recognize some of the  places here.  You think you had seen that map before?  No.  It -- I know the places there, but I didn't  really -- that's not really the map, the one that I  was looking at.  Do you remember what the map was that you were looking  at?  Well, at the time, you see, I was placing the names of  all the creeks on that map.  Which creeks?  All these from Xsagan Gaksda down in --  The creeks in Gyolugyet's territory.  The map that Mr.  Benson is looking at and unable to identify is 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  30  31  32  MR.  PLANT  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  MRS  . SAMP  44  MR.  PLANT  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  A  47  MR.  RUSH:  149  Schedule B to the interrogatories of Gyolugyet's also  known as Mary McKenzie and it was produced to us as a  part of the answers to her interrogatories.  And the  map is stamped "Draft Copy."  I'd like to go off the  record for just a second.  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  I may have asked you this before, Mr. Benson, but is  Andap Matx part of the Xsagan Gaksda territory?  Yeah.  Is it a mountain in the Xsagan Gaksda territory?  Yes.  Does it form part of the boundary of the Xsagan Gaksda  territory?  That's correct.  Yes.  Paragraph eight you say, "The boundary of the Xsagan  Gaksda territory described above has remained the same  through my lifetime and Philip Brown told me that it  has remained the same since long before the arrival of  European people here."  As I understand your evidence,  Philip Brown didn't tell you anything about this  territory?  No.  So that statement there is wrong, the statement that  it was from Philip Brown that you learned this?  Yes.  That's right.  I was with him.  And —  Just hold on.  I don't think he understood that  question, because the answer wasn't responsive.  What  he said was yes, I was with him, which didn't seem to  me to be responsive to your question.  You told me earlier that when you were with Philip  Brown he didn't tell you anything, correct?  Correct.  He didn't tell you anything about the Xsagan Gaksda  territory, correct?  Yes.  I still haven't had an answer to that.  He didn't tell  you anything about the Xsagan Gaksda territory,  correct?  No.  30N:  Can I ask him in Indian?  :  If it would help, sure.  Richard, do you understand the question?  Yes.  Okay. 1  A  2 MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  150  I understand what he means when he says that.  So you -- what you know about Xsagan Gaksda came from  Mathias Wesley?  Correct.  Not from Philip Brown?  No.  That's -- the "no" is a bit confusing.  You didn't  learn anything from Philip Brown, correct?  No.  That's a correct statement?  Yes.  Correct.  Well, you see, the only thing Philip  told me the place that we on is Gyolugyet's territory.  That's all he said.  He told you that the place you were on which was the  Xsagan Gaksda territory --  Yes.  -- was Gyolugyet's territory?  Correct.  And that's only thing he told you?  Yes.  Now, I want to ask you some questions about paragraph  26, which is on page eight.  How do you pronounce that?  So the paragraphs begins, "The boundary of the Xsa  galliixawit territory can be described as follows."  And before I -- well, I will read it.  "Starting at  Xsi masxwit lo'op," and I won't ask you about the  comments in parenthesis yet, "and east flowing  tributary of Xsa galliixawit."  Now, we have talked  about the creek called Xsi masxwit lo'op, and that  runs east into Xsa galliixawit, correct?  Correct.  Is that creek, that is to say the Xsi masxwit lo'op,  is that south of the place called Mount Skuyhil, an  east flowing tributary?  Maybe I should ask you this  question first:  Do you know of a place called Mount  Skuyhil?  This one here, that's Mount Skuyhil.  Oh, that's  Skuyhil, is that right?  Is there a mountain called Mount Skuyhil?  Yes.  And is that mountain in the territory near the Nass  River?  That's correct.  Upstream from Win skahl Guuhl?  Not upstream.  It's down.  I don't know how they got 1  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  151  it on up.  Well, they may not have it on here.  The mountain that  we are talking about may not be Mount Skuyhil.  Then  let me ask you about the next paragraph.  It says,  "The boundary runs west up Xsi masxwit lo'op to the  summit at the head of Xsi masxwit lo'op."  Do you see  that sentence?  Yes.  Xsi masxwit lo'op, you see, that's -- I just  correct myself on that.  We know the real boundary of  it is right up into that creek, and it goes right up  there.  But they still trap on both sides.  Not on  both sides, because it's so narrow.  The boundary on  that is just up on that creek, because it's -- it's  not very far before we get over to the summit here and  that goes down to Win skahl Guuhl.  Not supposed to go  down there because I trap with them.  That's why we  have to go down.  Well, is the boundary on the creek or is it off to the  right of the creek?  No.  It's just on the creek.  Because there is hardly  anything on both sides of the mountain to -- they  don't hunt or trap or hunt around anywhere there.  Just after there we get over there and while the Win  skahl Guuhl used to come up there, you know, up on --  there is a nice summit that's way left -- right-hand  side of that Xsi masxwit lo'op, and the mountain there  is pretty smooth.  That's where the caribou stays,  that's why -- that's why the Win skahl Guuhl there is  a nice place to climb.  It's not hard.  That's why we  go down there.  It's still Gyolugyet's down here, you  see.  They come across here and they trap over here.  Where are you talking about now, near Win skahl Guuhl?  Yeah -- no.  You see, this Xsi masxwit lo'op and there  is a hill down here.  That's what I am talking about.  That's across the Win skahl Guuhl on this side.  You  see, and then some of the men from Win skahl Guuhl  cross over here and they trap and go up here and  that's where the caribou is up on this side.  That's  why they come over there.  On masxwit lo'op?  Yes.  On the right-hand side, but it's got nothing to  do with Xsi masxwit lo'op.  It's Gyolugyet's.  Now, when you go up Xsi masxwit lo'op, you went up  there with Philip Brown and Albert Brown?  Yes.  That's from start from Xsa galliixawit.  Xsa galliixawit?  Xsa galliixawit.  And then you come up.  That's how 1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  2 4 MR.  RUSH:  25  2 6 MR.  PLANT  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  152  far you only supposed to go up up here.  Not supposed  down there.  That's Gyolugyet's territory.  I think you told me this morning that when you were  going up Xsi masxwit lo'op, up the creek, that Wii  'goob'l's territory was on both sides of the creek?  Well, that's the mountain, because it's so narrow  there.  That's why they just use that creek as a  boundary.  That's Wii 'goob'l's boundary.  And did you trap on both sides of the creek?  No.  You can't do that, because it's so narrow.  The  hill on this side is a little better.  That's where  the trail is.  On which side?  On the right-hand side coming up to Xsi masxwit lo'op.  So as you are climbing the hill up from Xsa  galliixawit --  Yes.  -- which side is the trail on?  On the right-hand side coming up.  Is that the north side?  Yes.  Because on this side, you know, the mountain  just like this.  And the creek is here and this side,  that's where the trail is.  It's easy to go up.  You will agree with me that he made a gesture with  his left hand when he said this is where the trail is?  :  Yes.  And that's filling me with confusion.  If you start down at the bottom of Xsi masxwit lo'op  and you are looking up the hill, you are looking west?  Yes.  And at the top --  That's where it's from that creek.  It comes from the west?  From the west, yeah.  And at the top of the hill is the mountain called Xsi  masxwit lo'op or masxwit lo'op?  Yes.  That's on the left-hand side.  It's way over.  Now, as you go up the creek, up the hill, on which  side is the trail?  Well, I told you.  It's on the right-hand side.  That's the only place where you can go.  And is that because on the left side going up the  creek the valley is too steep?  Yes.  It's so steep and rough that nobody can travel  there.  And did Wii 'goob'l have a trapline on the right side  of the creek?  Yes.  Maybe -- I don't really know.  But that's where 1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  153  we come up.  But we only got -- have to get just this  far.  Not to go down on there.  But they told me it's  closer to Win skahl Guuhl.  So you got the power to go  down there so that's where we go down.  But I still  set the trap going down.  Did you send any traps going up Xsi masxwit lo'op?  Yes.  All the way until we get -- go down.  Oh, we  didn't follow the creek.  We turned right on this side  as the trail goes and get right over the summit and  then we go down.  And when you were veering off to the right --  Yes.  -- Do you know whose territory you were in before you  got to the top?  Well, there must be a boundary down there.  That's  what -- that's why -- that's what they're talking  about on top there.  That's how far we going to go,  but I go with them, so we keep on going until we get  down, right down across Win skahl Guuhl.  Well, I am interested in the other side, the Xsa  galliixawit side?  Yes.  And I want to know you were off on the right side --  Yes.  -- of Xsi masxwit lo'op.  As you go off on the hill  you were off on the right?  Yes.  Is that where you were setting traps?  Yes.  Did Philip and Albert Brown tell you that that is Wii  'goob'l's territory?  Yes.  After we got there right on top to the summit  that's how far they are supposed to go.  So that must  be the boundary.  And now we on Gyolugyet's territory  now.  That's what they said.  After you crossed the summit?  Yeah.  Where did you get malgwaasxw?  Oh, we get it up on the mountain.  Which mountain?  Well, anywhere.  It doesn't matter.  They don't --  they grow all over, even right here.  Where did you get malgwaasxw the last time you got it?  The malgwaasxw, you know, it grows all over up on the  mountain, you know.  Not too high, but like Glen  Vowell where I live you see a little open place above  there.  There is -- there is a whole pile of them up 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  154  there if you go there and pick them.  So that's why you would go to pick malgwaasxw?  Yes.  Were you ever a member of the Glen Vowell band's  council?  Hey?  Were you ever a member of the band council at Glen  Vowell?  Yes, that's right.  What kinds of things did the band council do?  Well, at first, you know, I really don't belong to  Glen Vowell.  I just belonged to Kitwanga band.  Well,  after I think that's -- when they get their own  council, that's when they want me to transfer there.  So that's what I did.  I wrote to the chief in  Kitwanga, said want my name out there.  I'm going  to -- that's when they put me in in Glen Vowell.  That's about '37.  That's when I start as a council in  Glen Vowell there.  Does the band council or the council at Glen Vowell,  does it make decisions with certain things?  Yes.  That's correct.  What kinds of things does it make decisions about?  Well, you see, the council have to look after the  village of everything.  What the council has said goes  and the chief, if my people wanted something, you see,  I go and talk to the Indian nation about it.  That's  their job and then the Indian department do it.  Now, do you have a relative named Richard Allan  Benson.  Does that -- is that name familiar to you?  Yes.  But he's a white man.  He has the same name as you do?  Yes.  That's right.  He used to own that where that  gas station is now.  He had a taxi at the time.  Did you vote in the last Provincial election?  Yes.  You told us that you went to Iskit with James  Morrison?  Yes.  Why did you go to Iskit?  Well, you see that's James Morrison and I -- Neil sent  us over there to check everything what's going on  there.  That's including the land claim.  We got to  talk to those people.  Well, I was surprised.  They  are really friendly people right there.  Was there a problem with the boundary of the land  claim?  Was there an overlap with the boundaries? 1 MR.  RUSH:  2 MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  155  Two questions there.  That's fine.  He can answer whichever one he wants.  Yes.  The only problem that we have when we first  started was the Nass River people.  Like what we  talking up to Xsihl Guugan, well, you see they call  that Nass River, Xsi Txemsem.  So they claim that  everything up there belongs to them.  That was the Nass people who claimed that?  Yes.  I told them I can -- I don't know.  Ever since,  you know, Mezziadan is not too far away from Nass,  from where Aiyansh is.  All my days when I am young I  never see Nass River people up there.  My grandfather  is the one he's fighting the Stikine to clear them out  of the way.  And Ska wil is one of them, too.  That's  why he's the one he's closer to the Stikine territory.  That's why he owns that Aawiijaa Mountain.  Was there a problem with the Stikine people and the  boundary of their territory when you went to Iskit  with James Morrison?  No, no.  We don't have any problem right there at all.  Because they understand everything.  Before they  don't.  That's, oh, it must be about a hundred or 200  years ago.  They don't know who owns anything.  The  only thing they got to do is to fight for that so they  can get it.  That's why Kitwancool get ahold of  Mezziadan.  Because I don't know, there is lots of  people died there.  That's Stikine.  That's why they  surrender and leave that place.  Mr. Benson, do you know if there is a chief in  Moricetown who has the name Luus?  Yes.  Who is that?  That's my grandfather.  He really belongs to Kuldo.  That's Alec Williams.  I don't know how old he is now.  He's very old.  You say he really belongs to Kuldo?  Yes.  Did he live in Moricetown?  Yes.  He lived there all his life.  He was married and  his wife died and then he married another one again.  That's the one he's still living now today.  Is he still alive today?  Yes.  But he's really old.  He must be a good man.  That's why he's still alive.  Jeez, he's old.  But I  know him when I was just a little kid.  Well, there is  something wrong.  That's why he leave Kispiox.  They 156  1 have some kind of problem and fight over something,  2 him and my grandmother, but he never tell me what my  3 grandfather tell him.  That's why he leave and I'm not  4 going back there no more.  That's why he took off and  5 he worked down the coast and then he get on the  6 section.  7 Q   The section?  8 A   Yeah.  9 Q   For the railway?  10 A   On the railway.  And he worked there for about 20 or  11 25 years.  And then he's retired.  I think he still  12 receives the money from the C.N.  He's retired and I  13 don't know how long that he's been working there.  I  14 was just a little kid and after I get married, he's  15 still working for the C.N. as a foreman.  He's the  16 boss.  And they retired him after he got -- he wasn't  17 very old when he got retired.  18 MR. PLANT:   Mr. Benson, thank you very much.  Those are all the  19 questions I have.  I think some other people may have  20 some more questions.  21 MR. MACAULAY:  Shall we take ten minutes now.  22  2 3 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  24  25 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  Mr. Benson, this is the examination on behalf of the  Attorney General of Canada.  Now, first about fishing.  Do you remember what year it was that you first went  down with your father to sit in his sailboat when he  went fishing?  What place is that?  Well, did you go down to the coast with your father  when he went down to the coast as a commercial  fisherman?  I really don't know when, but the way ahead of time,  but I was really too young.  The only time that I  remember was I believe it's -- I was really young when  I was there.  That's 1920.  Well, you were born in 1909?  Yes.  And in 1920 you would be about eleven years old?  Yes.  Well, did you ever go down to the coast before you  were eleven years old?  I think so, because I -- you know how the child is.  I  can remember part of that.  I was in a boat.  I don't  know where though.  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  157  It was a sailboat, was it?  Hey?  It was a sailboat that you were in?  Yes.  And did your mother go down to the coast with your  father?  Correct.  And did she work in the cannery?  Yes.  Was that the Cassiar Cannery?  No.  That's -- this is the new cannery was put up was  Haysport.  And when you started fishing yourself, the first year  you were just given a sailboat, is that right?  Correct.  And that year were there many people from your village  down at the coast?  Yes.  Were most of the people from the village down there,  down at the coast?  Yes.  The whole -- almost the whole village.  And were there a lot of the people from the other  Gitksan villages on the coast?  Correct, yes.  There were more people going down to the coast than  there are now, isn't that right?  Yeah.  That's right.  The Gitksan who go down to the coast now, a lot of  them have their own boats?  Yes.  Did you ever have your own boat?  No.  I just rent the boat from the cannery.  And you were fishing for 15 years before you started  working at the Cassiar Cannery?  Yes.  That's right.  Now, when you started at Cassiar Cannery, were you a  foreman?  Yes.  They put me there, because they make me as a  foreman, because there is some -- lot of older people  working there and they don't understand what the other  foreman was telling them to do.  And were there -- at that time when you were a foreman  at the Cassiar Cannery, were there a lot of people  from your village working at the cannery?  Yes.  From different villages like here, Kispiox, down  below here, Kitwanga.  And before -- when your father went fishing on 1  2  3 MR.  RUS1  4 MR.  MACi  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  158  Mezziadan Lake, did he use barricades or wires that  you can remember?  At Mezziadan Lake?  LAY:  At Mezziadan Lake or the river?  No.  No.  They never use anything like that.  They  only use -- the only thing they use is the gaff hook  down over that -- that fall, you know.  Because there  is a lot of fish there, they can take it out as fast  as -- .  Now, was the falls, was that the only place that there  was fishing for sockeye?  No.  The sockeye -- the reason why they fish down to  the fall there because the fish they caught down there  is they still got that oil in.  They really good fish.  But at the end of the lake, they are in the lake and  they lose that.  Did your father do any fishing in the lake for sockeye  or other kinds of salmon?  Yes.  After they get the fish from the coast and they  use that gillnet right down at the outlet of the lake.  Was the gaff fishing at the falls, was that early in  the season?  Yes.  That's when the first time the sockeye got --  they are not in the lake yet.  That's why they fish  down there.  They are really good fish.  And when did he leave Mezziadan Lake for the coast to  do commercial fishing?  What month of the year?  Well, you see, the commercial fishing starts in 20th  of June.  Yes.  So before that they have to be there somewhere on the  15th of June or something like that, they got to be at  the cannery to prepare the boats and things like that.  You take the train down to the cannery?  Yeah.  Uh-huh.  Was the gaff fishing done before the 20th of June,  gaff fishing at the falls, was that before June 15 or  June 2 0?  No.  The sockeye isn't there yet at Mezziadan Lake.  It's kind of late, in August.  That's when the few  comes up there.  So that it's after the commercial fishing season that  you --  Yeah.  -- caught fish?  We have to come back there as fast as they can get 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  159  there to get the good fish there.  When your father came back from the coast, did he  bring fish with him?  No.  He didn't?  No.  Dry any fish on the coast?  No.  Or can any fish?  No.  Oh.  In the early days they don't, but now I see they do  that.  Did your grandfather fish at coast?  I don't think so.  No.  Your father was the first member of your family to go  fishing on the coast?  Well, you see, the first member of -- my grandfather,  I remember he told me the first cannery down the coast  was down -- you are down to Rupert.  You cross -- you  see the powerline across there.  That's where the  first cannery was.  They told me.  I didn't see it.  They called that Aberdene.  Yes.  Well, you see, at that time they only use skiff or  maybe 20 foot long skiff and it's all open.  Just like  any little boat around here.  And you know how much  the cannery paying them?  How much is that?  They only work them by the month.  Oh.  $30 a month.  But yet every day they got that boat  fill -- full of fish.  The packer come around and pick  them up.  But they only -- when they through fishing  they told me they get back to the cannery and they  stay there and they got a boss who wake them up when  the tide is just about right and they wake them up and  they all went out.  Well, that time there must be lot  of fish.  They fish for a few hours and they got that  skiff almost full.  So --  Is this --  But they only got $30 a month.  That's it.  Is that your father who told you that?  Yes.  All right.  Did he work for $30 a month?  Did your  father work --  No. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  160  No.  He's a trapper, you know, but he makes lots of money  in trapping up there.  But, boy, I feel sorry when the  other grandfather was telling me.  They didn't even  buy rubber boots or anything like that because they  want -- he want more money.  Who's the --  They go with the bare feet.  They didn't even wear  anything from down here.  Who's the other grandfather you are talking about?  The one that -- the names that I got is Charles  Wesley.  And the other one I didn't really close to  him, his brother.  Oh, gee, there must be hard for  them.  Was Charles Wesley your grandfather?  Yes.  And he was -- he went to the coast, did he?  Yes.  Well, he's one of the boss down there that wakes  the people up to get out early in the morning and fish  when the tide on low tide or high.  Who was it who recruited you when you first -- you  went down the first season that you were a commercial  fisherman, was it a Mr. Brown?  Yes.  That was John Brown that he didn't think I will  be any good in fishing because I was really too young  to have my own boat.  But I did.  Was he a member of the same band as you were at that  time?  Yeah.  He's -- he lives in Kispiox.  He wasn't in the same House?  No.  Or wilp?  No.  And he went around to the various villages recruiting  people to go fishing?  Yes.  That's right.  He stop.  He never answer me for  a long time.  Because I want a boat.  Because I was  really too young.  But I got something and made it I  can do the fishing.  You stopped fishing before 1940?  Were you fishing --  were you still fishing in 1940?  No.  You see, because I was hired at Cassiar looking  after the things as a foreman, you see.  Now, in 1941 all the Japanese fishermen left, didn't  they?  Yes.  That's correct.  That's during the war.  That's  when they -- 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  161  And did -- were they replaced by fishermen from the  Gitksan villages?  Yes.  We -- the only one fishing there and there  was -- what do you call those people, the Swedes.  They are the ones that really likes fishing, too.  So there were some Swedes fishing?  Uh-huh.  They are from Norway.  I don't know where.  So there were -- there were more Gitksan fishing after  1941 than earlier?  Yes.  That's right.  Most of us do all the fishing.  There is no more Japanese.  And in the 1940s you were busy trapping —  Yes.  -- till 1951?  Uh-huh.  Correct.  Now, what did you do -- after you came home from the  coast, did you do food fishing?  Yes.  We do some food fishing in the Skeena here.  And what fishing place did you use for food fishing?  Well, each person had the fishing grounds up here.  Well, you see, those that didn't go down the coast  that time where I lived here, they do all the fishing  all through the summer.  By the time I get back from  the coast after 20th of August and I asked this person  here, "Can I use your fishing grounds?  We need to  salt some more dry fish."  He said, "Okay."  They let  me have the canoe.  I got my own net.  I set it.  That's the way it goes.  Did you have your own smokehouse?  Yes.  One of my neighbours just next door, they got a  big smokehouse they finish.  They let us use that.  Go  ahead and use it.  Was that at Glen Vowell?  Yes.  Now, the fishing place, did you use the same fishing  place every year after you came home from the coast?  No.  They all different.  Got some friendly neighbours  around there.  Lot of my grounds there is open.  You  can use it if you want some fish.  Did you ever use Luus' fishing grounds?  No.  They are too far up, way up above Kispiox.  That's a long ways from --  They are up near Kuldo, are they?  No.  Just -- I don't know how many miles was -- well,  this fishing ground belongs to his wife and all his  wife's relatives.  They all live there together.  They  got two smokehouses up there. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  162  Are you talking about Abel Tait now?  Yes.  Yes.  Well, you are a member of the House of Luus?  Yes.  Luus?  Correct.  So you if you wanted to fish there you would be able  to?  Yeah.  But it wasn't convenient to go there?  Yeah.  Well, it's too far up.  Yes.  You had no trouble getting a fishing place down  near Glen Vowell?  No.  There was the fishing there.  They all finished  by the time I get back.  So it's easy for me to use,  but I have to get permission from them.  Yes.  And did you get a fishing permit from the  fisheries officer?  Yes.  And were there some days when there was — when the  fishing was closed, closed fishing?  Yes.  And there was some kind of notice that was put up for  that, was there?  Yeah.  I -- years ago, you know, we never have to  limit the days of fish.  I got the fishing from it but  I fished through, all through the weeks.  Do you still fish now?  Yes, I still fish.  You got -- you got a permit in 1986?  Not right now.  No.  But in 1986 you got a food fishing permit?  Yeah.  But right now I don't know why I fish because  I'm all alone.  You don't need so many fish?  No.  I don't need.  I can always get fish from our  neighbours around there.  In Glen Vowel, are any Feasts held in that village?  Yes.  There is a Feast hall there, is there?  Yes.  What Houses are at Glen Vowell.  Who does Feasting at  Glen Vowell?  Oh, yes, they do have Feast there.  In lots of ways  they can put up the Feast.  Well, like supposing my  mother died, you know, and we put the stone there and  they built.  Well, that's for this, bring the fence 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  163  around.  When that's the fish get around, get the  people, they put up a Feast.  But if your mother died who would put up the Feast?  Well, you see that's -- she's got a name.  That's  another one -- another reason why they put up that  Feast.  Who's going to take that name.  Put in the  most money that he can put up there to pay for  everything.  When your mother was in Luus' House?  Yes.  Well, then was it Luus who put on the Feast when your  mother died?  Yes.  And that was at Glen Vowell, was it?  Not in Glen Vowell.  But I'm just telling you how --  how the Feast goes.  They put up the Feast and after  that some place that's when that blanket comes out,  you see.  If my mother's got blanket, Luus got that  name, and there is other chiefs that's got to be two  to hold that blanket and somebody is standing there,  well -- they put that blanket on him and with that  name gets on there.  Well, did Luus ever put on a Feast at Glen Vowell?  No.  Well, there -- the only place is that in Kispiox.  Luus always puts on Feasts in Kispiox?  Yes.  All right.  Are there any Houses that always put on  Feasts in Glen Vowell, other Houses?  Yes.  Yes.  They do.  All right.  You see, I'm one of Luus' really nephews, you see.  When he's going to have of Feast in Kispiox, he came  down or called me up and he told me, well, you see, I  am going to have this Feast in certain day and he told  me that.  Well, you one of mine, you see.  You go  around those houses and in those chiefs' houses, go in  there and invite them, tell them that I say so, that  going to come in certain day and certain time to the  Feast that he's going to put up.  You acted as Luus' messenger in Glen Vowell?  Yes.  I go around and --.  And chiefs of some of the other Houses live in Glen  Vowell?  Uh-huh.  Now, it was your grandfather who took part in the war  against the Stikine people.  Was that your  grandfather? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  164  Yes.  That's Wilitsxw, that is.  That's Kitwancool.  At Kitwancool?  Yes.  And was your grandfather still alive when you were a  small boy?  No.  I didn't see Wilitsxw.  I was already born, but  he was passed on.  So I didn't even see him.  That was your father's father, was it?  Yes.  Correct.  And your father told you stories of the wars that your  grandfather had fought?  Yes.  That's right.  Was it your grandfather who had a house, the old type  of house where several families lived together?  Yes.  My grandfather in Kitwancool has that.  I seen  it because he built that not too long before she died,  I think, because it was still there in good shape when  I begin to remember.  And I live in that house, too.  Great big -- the biggest house there is.  Were there other houses like that at Kitwancool?  Yes.  I don't know.  There must be about ten of them  over the bench in Kitwancool like that.  They are not  too far apart.  And when were they destroyed or taken down, those big  houses?  I don't know when they -- there is nothing there now.  I used to tell those people that lived there, this is  not where the village where I remember.  I said it's  over -- it's way down below, over the bank there.  There is nothing there now?  No.  They move all the totem poles back towards  closest to the road.  That's where all those houses  are, because they want to get closer to the river  because that's where they get their water.  Did your father not tell you what happened to the  houses in Kitwancool?  No.  What I don't understand is that -- how did these  old people get those -- they got -- they got the cedar  about that big around and it's over a hundred feet  long.  And they got it up so high like that on both  sides.  That's what holds those -- those big buildings  up, that, those big logs.  One on this side and one on  the other one.  You are talking about the frames now of the house?  Yes.  That's that -- that's what holds that -- those  big buildings up.  I used to look at it.  But they got  no stove.  They got a place about as long as this. 1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  165  It's open.  And the roof up there is open where the  smoke can get out.  But nobody ever told you what happened to the houses,  why they are gone, or how they came to --  I don't know.  You see, in other words, I tell you  when I start seeing the houses built, that's what they  starting to build the houses.  You know that my  grandfather's house the walls I can see through.  The  walls outside there.  How did they survive in 40 below  zero.  And they only get open fire right there.  Now, you gave evidence about your father's house at  Mezziadan Lake?  Yes.  That's the log cabin?  Yes.  When was that built?  I don't know.  The same -- it's pretty well built, but  they still got a half -- they got no stove.  They  still got an open fire in the middle and there is open  space up in the roof there so the smoke — and if they  got it closed so tight, you know, they all got an open  on the outside like on the side of the walls there  now, so the air can get in, and the smoke can escape  through -- if it's all closed, then the smoke just  stay inside.  And you lived in that house till you went to school,  did you?  Yes.  Till you went to Sardis?  Yell.  That's where I went.  That's where they sent  me.  And there was still a fireplace in the middle of the  floor then?  Yes.  A fire in the middle of the floor?  Yes.  How many houses were there at Mezziadan?  I count.  There was five there.  And were they all the same type of house with a fire  in the middle of the floor?  Yes.  That's right.  And were those -- was that your father's permanent  house or was it -- did he move into Kitwancool at any  time during the year?  Well, you see, after the trap is over, you know, they  go -- they went back to Kitwancool.  After the trapping season? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  166  Yes.  After the beaver?  Yeah.  After the beaver.  They go to Kitwancool and where would they live in  Kitwancool, in your grandfather's house?  Yes.  And my father built his own house, a real good  house in Kitwanga.  In Kitwanga?  Yes.  When did he move to Kitwanga?  I don't know.  It was there when I begin to remember.  Your father's brother is Fred Johnson?  Yes.  And that's blood brother?  Yes.  Same father and mother?  Yes.  That's right.  Because Fred is the youngest one  amongst the brothers.  And did he move to Kitwanga at the same time as your  father?  Well, when I begin to remember Fred Johnson already  got a house there and a family.  Was that the kind of house you had in Mezziadan Lake?  No.  They got stove in there this time and the  windows.  Well, at Mezziadan Lake were there not windows?  Were  there any windows in there?  No.  The only light we got is that open place up above  where the smoke goes out.  Were there any houses like that -- were there any  houses like that, like the Mezziadan house, at the  Kitwanga?  After I come back from school then I went back to  Mezziadan.  That's when they get the stove and stove  pipe in.  They got log cabins this time and they got  windows and they got stove inside and the floor --  well, they make their own floor out of those balsam  because they split really good.  Like cedar.  So it was a different kind of house that they built  then?  Yes.  But the house at Mezziadan, your father's house, that  was for only one family, was it?  Or was there more  than one family in that house?  Yeah.  There is more than one there.  There were more than one?  Yes.  There is Ambrose Derrick got one there.  His 1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  167  name was Luuxoon, but he belongs to the — the reason  why he was there because he's one of Wilitsxw family's  son, but he belongs to the Frog tribe.  What do you  call that now?  Ganada.  Ganada is the same as the  Frog.  When -- what -- about what year did your father start  a store at Kitwanga?  I really don't know.  Must be quite a ways back,  because I see they made us that building, that church.  Gee I forgot now.  Is somewhere around 18, 1800s,  somewhere around there.  The only place that's when I  see -- that's my father, I heard him talking about  when they building that church in Kitwanga and he was  their working there too.  That was in 19 -- 1918 or  something, 1918 or 1919.  I just forget what year.  I  see it on the paper in Kitwanga.  Are you talking about a time before you were born?  Yes.  You are talking about 1890 or something like that?  Yeah.  Is that when he had a store at Kitwanga?  Yes.  So he had a store there before you were born?  Yes, that's right.  And when you were in school at Sardis did he still  have a store there?  Did your father still have a  business?  No.  He'd stopped that, had he?  I know my dad didn't know -- he doesn't understand  anything.  He just leave that to somebody else that  old -- that fellow was old.  I saw him before he died.  His name is Alfred Sinclair.  He's the one that look  after the store.  But the store closed before -- before --  Well, it wasn't there when I get back.  Just only the  big books like Rush got there.  He's got three of  them.  When you went to Sardis was the store still open?  No.  I didn't even see it.  Did your father have any other kinds of business other  than that store and the trapping?  No.  That's the only place -- that's the only thing he  got, his trapping.  Chris Harris had a store, did he?  Yes.  Right here in Kispiox.  In Kispiox? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  168  Yes.  He didn't have one in Hazelton?  No.  And he's a relative of yours?  Yes.  That's correct.  Does he still -- did he have a store till he died?  Yes.  Did he -- was he in the business of giving provisions  to trappers?  Yes.  He traps a lot.  In other words, he builds so  many cabins in Kispiox there.  That's Chris.  I don't  know how many he's got.  Maybe about ten.  And he rent  them out.  He's the only man that makes money on the  reserve there.  He got those nice places built here  and there.  Well, when you were trapping before 1951, was Chris  Harris in business then?  Yes.  And did he buy furs?  Well, he help out some -- some people, yes.  But did you sell your furs to Chris Harris?  No.  You always went to the Hudson Bay Company?  Yes.  That's right.  There is three buyers here.  Sometimes the fur buyer comes around, you see.  That's  when the fur goes up a little higher.  Because the  Hudson Bay don't want us to let that guy get the fur.  You mean the price went up when there was competition?  Yes.  That's right.  After 1951 the fur prices were low for a long time?  Yeah.  That's what I was telling, you know.  That's  when I went -- I used to make lots of money trapping.  I trapped all the fall through the winter until  spring.  But this one year, well, I didn't know  anything about that.  That's why I quit.  Everybody,  not just me.  There is lot of trappers in Kispiox  right here, too.  In Hazelton.  Oh, boy, when I get  back I heard about the fur.  Well, I went into the  fur -- Hudson Bay and I let them have my fur, but the  Bay was good.  Although I didn't pay all my bill, but  she still give me -- he just took half of what I got,  but still I still owe him quite a bit of money.  You  see, when I get the money to pay for that, I go down  fishing and I got enough money down there.  When I  come back I turn it into the Bay.  You went down to the coast to do commercial fishing?  Yes.  That's why the Hudson Bay still like me today. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  169  And that's when you decided to go to start cutting  poles instead of trapping?  Yes.  Yes.  Did the fur price ever get better --  Well —  -- after that?  They stay so low for I don't know how many years.  So  that's why I forgot about trapping.  I go and cut  cedar poles and you know how much I got when I got 30  martin.  I was cutting cedar poles.  I see some martin  tracks so I start setting the trap.  So all -- gee,  all the traps that I set there I got martin on every  one of them.  Yes.  There was so many of them.  Where --  Every time I go I get 31.  You know, 31 martin I  didn't even make hundred dollars out of that.  Just  five for one, three dollars a piece.  Has the price for martin furs improved in the last ten  years?  Yes.  It does improve.  But I still work, though.  Are there many trappers working out of Kispiox now or  out of Glen Vowell?  Yes.  They all work in that mill.  Oh, they are not working as trappers?  No.  Are there many people trapping now in along the Nass  or the Skeena?  No.  I hardly think.  Just a very few.  The prices are  good, but I don't know why they don't go out.  Well, are there not many people who know how to trap  now?  I think so.  You see, but in other words, I was  surprised when I see the price of that, the wolverine.  When I was trapping they usually give me dollar and a  half or maybe three dollars for one.  But now it's  over three hundred for one.  That's wolverine.  Yes.  I remember, you know, the last time Tommy Jack was  trapping, well, he knows the wolverine used to hardly  worth anything, so he used that skin, you know, to  cover his dogs pack.  That's why he bring it home.  So  nothing can get wet in there.  But when I got to the  Bay he was telling me, my gosh, that wolverine, I see  what the Bay is going to say to this.  So he took that  with the martin and beaver.  And that wolverine beats 1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  170  all the fur that he's got there.  It's worth over --  well, it's not too high.  You know that my cover is  worth $150.  How long ago was that that he brought the wolverine  in?  It's not too long.  I don't think it's 15 years now.  There aren't many wolverine in up the Nass, are there?  No.  Not very many.  Those animals are really tricky.  It's hard to catch wolverine, is it?  Yeah.  They are pretty hard to catch.  If I set a trap  here, they know how.  Trap is here, they go around the  back and take the bait out.  And push that open and  take the bait out and the trap is still there.  Gee,  they really know.  Gyolugyet's traplines were all at one time registered  in one name, do you remember that?  Yes.  And that was the old Gyolugyet's name?  Uh-huh.  That was Joseph Danes, is that right?  Yes.  Now, you've heard that the Joseph Danes' trapline was  divided up?  Yes.  That's what I heard right here.  Well, you heard something about that at a meeting at  the Gitanmaax hall, didn't you?  Yes.  That's when my aunt had called me down.  She  said we having trouble, so you better come with us.  So that's why I came down.  And there were several members of your family at the  meeting?  Yes.  And the game warden was there?  Yes.  And the Indian agent was there?  Yeah.  Do you remember his name, the Indian agent who was at  that meeting?  No.  Because there is too many of them.  All right.  Now, that trapline at one time belonged to  Peter Robinson, did it?  Was Peter Robinson registered  on part of that line or all of that line at one time?  Yes.  That's Gyolugyet is the only one that's got the  name on the whole territory that we just went through.  But Peter Robinson wasn't Gyolugyet, was he?  Yes.  Peter Robinson, that's --  Was he Kwamoon? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  171  No.  It's Hlo'oxs.  No.  That's Kwamoon.  Yeah.  That's right.  I was thinking about the other guy that  owns that place.  His name was Kwamoon.  And his sons were Wallace and Fred?  Yes.  But his sons, did they do any trapping, Wallace --  No.  -- Robinson?  No.  I am sorry, that's not right.  The Wallace and Fred  were the sons of Joseph Danes, weren't they?  Yes.  Had you heard that Peter Robinson left his trapping  ground to Amelia Wilson?  Had you ever heard that?  Yes.  And was that part of the dispute, was that part of the  trouble?  Yes.  In other words, the reason why they don't like  Amelia, because Amelia wasn't really belongs to  Gyolugyet at all.  She was adopted, wasn't she?  I don't think it's really adopted.  They just found --  the baby was found when he was -- she was abandoned  somewhere in the bush.  Oh.  And somebody heard the baby out in the bush, so they  went.  This man were telling me himself it was Peter  Robinson.  He heard the baby crying and he was still  in a crib, you know, that Indian crib.  I see it  standing around here.  It was made.  So they pick it  up.  Nobody around.  So they didn't even know whose  baby it is.  So they pack it and I forgot who they  give it to to look after.  That's one that old lady  get ahold of that baby, because she's -- she's a  little girl.  So she need one, so said I am going to  take.  Was she adopted by Peter Robinson?  I think so.  I don't -- I think so.  Yes, that must be  true, because when I was in Peter Robinson's house in  Kitsequkla there and Peter really like Amelia, because  she happen to come there, you know, and Peter make her  stay in his house.  I remember that now.  And you remember that when he died he left a will and  he left his trapline to Amelia.  Do you remember that?  No.  I don't know.  You never heard that?  No. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  172  Was Amelia one of the people at the Gitanmaax hall at  the meeting about the traplines?  No.  She wasn't there?  No.  They was living down in Port Edward at the time.  They got a house there.  Was that her husband, Angus?  Was that her husband, a  fellow named Angus?  No.  At the time it was Peter Wilson.  Wilson.  Yeah.  All right.  And was Esther Holland at the meeting?  Yes.  And Mary Anne was at the meeting?  Yes.  Was Mary McKenzie at the meeting?  I don't remember.  There is a lot of them there.  Wallace Danes, was he there?  Yes.  Wallace is there.  And was Jonathan Brown there?  I don't know.  Or William Wale?  Well, there is a lot of -- lot of people there.  There were a lot of people there?  Yes.  And was -- do you remember an agreement after this  meeting, was there some kind of agreement to settle  the trouble?  That was the next day I think.  Yeah.  They make some  kind of agreement, but I wasn't there.  Was it later on that Chris Harris phoned you to come  to register a trapline?  Well, he already did register it.  Before the meeting?  Before the meeting in the  Gitanmaax hall?  No.  That was after, way after that.  And were you told how Joseph Danes' trapline was  divided up?  Did anybody tell you?  No.  Did —  It -- it must be, that's why I didn't understand that,  because when I went out with my auntie Mary Anne  trapping up the Xsihl Guugan one day, when we get back  I don't know why her and Esther were arguing about  that in front of the Hudson Bay there.  Well, did Mary Anne tell you that she registered a  trapline? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  173  I don't know if there is any register.  Maybe.  But I  don't --  But did she tell you she was -- she was going to  register a trapline or she had registered a trapline?  I didn't know because she never said anything about  that to me.  But I don't understand why they were  fighting, arguing outside the Bay there.  Well, did Esther Holland register a trapline?  I don't know.  And —  Because --  How about Mary McKenzie, did she register a trapline  as part of Joseph Danes' old trapline?  I don't know.  Not -- I -- I don't see that on the  map.  You see, like -- like me, well, you see it  around here.  Yes.  When I want to show all the maps there and everybody  that's registered their names are on there.  Yes.  And they saw my name right there.  But she showed other names too?  Yes.  All those that got register.  Did you ever see a map showing Jonathan Brown's name?  Yeah, I seen that, but I don't understand.  I don't  know why they let them do that.  They told me that he  sold that trapline.  Well, he sold it to a man named Liring, didn't he?  Yes.  That's what I heard.  Do you know Mr. Liring?  Yes.  I know him.  Is he a Gitksan?  No.  But is he a trapper?  I don't know.  I never see him trap yet.  Well, right  now he couldn't hardly walk around.  How about William Wale, do you know him?  Yes.  Is he in the House of Luus?  No.  He's in -- he belongs to the Lax See'l.  He's not a Wolf Clan?  No.  So he shouldn't be on Gyolugyet's trapping ground,  should he?  That's right.  He not supposed to be on anybody's.  How about Jack Tait, do you know Jack Tait?  Yes.  That's Baskyelaxha. 174  1 Q   So he's in the House of of Gyolugyet or House of Luus?  2 A   No.  3 Q   Got his own house?  4 A   Yes.  But he belongs to the Wolf, though.  5 Q   He is Lax Gibuu?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   But not in your House?  8 A   No.  9 Q   Is he from Kuldo.  Is his family from Kuldo?  10 A   Yes.  Really close to us, though.  11 Q   But he would have to ask permission from Gyolugyet to  12 trap on her territory, wouldn't he?  13 A   Yes.  That's right.  But he's got his own.  14 Q   He's got his own territory?  15 A   Yeah.  He's got his own.  16 Q   Trapping ground?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And you had never heard that he was registered on part  19 of Gyolugyet's territory?  2 0 A   No.  No.  21 Q   Is he a trapper, is Jack Tait?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   He is?  24 A   He is.  25 Q   And William Wale, he's a trapper as well?  26 A   No.  I don't think so.  Maybe he goes out, but all my  27 life I didn't see him go out.  But he's — he's got  28 the name of that -- gee, I forgot his name now.  Oh,  29 yeah.  That's right.  When that old man died, you  30 know, his name is Djogaslee.  That owns the trapping  31 ground.  You know, as you tell me the boundary ground  32 below Win skahl guuhl there and there is a creek Xsan  33 Gehl Tsuuts, and down below there is a mountain there.  34 There is a creek that comes in there.  The white  35 people -- I don't know what the name of that creek.  36 The old man told me himself that that is Djogaslee.  37 That's William Wale took that name after that old man  38 died.  He didn't die anyway.  He was trapping there,  39 you know.  He's walking on the ice.  He went through  40 the ice in the Nass River early in the fall.  41 That's -- that's where they find where he disappeared.  42 Never know where.  43 Q   Now, the trapline that you are registered on, is that  44 partly in Ma'uus territory.  You have seen the  45 registration?  46 A   Yes.  4 7 MR. MACAULAY:  Perhaps the witness can be shown Exhibit 3. 175  1 Q   Is that description, does that include part of Ma'uus  2 territory?  3 A   Yes.  That's right.  4 Q   And does it include a part of the territory of Hak on  5 the southern boundary?  6 A   Yes.  That's right.  7 Q   And in the southwest corner, the southeast corner does  8 it include a part of Wiigyet's property or territory,  9 I should say?  10 A   Yes.  Wiigyet's property is much -- is way down to  11 that -- the white people call this big river, you  12 know, the wiit'ax yan.  Deep creek, and then we call  13 it Xsi wiit'ax yan.  That's that deep creek they call  14 that in the old map there.  15 MR. RUSH:  I don't really think he understood those questions,  16 that series of questions.  I don't think his -- his  17 last answer was not responsive and when you asked him  18 about Hak's territory he was looking on page two of  19 the exhibit and I really think that you should either  20 reask him or direct his mind more directly because I  21 don't believe he understood it.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, perhaps we can use a map if there is going  23 to be any difficulty about it.  Can I -- have we got a  24 map here.  I don't want to -- I want to make sure the  25 witness understands the questions that I am asking.  I  26 think he's particularly well qualified to answer them  27 since he's got a very firm grasp of boundaries or at  28 least he appears to.  Now, Mr. MacKenzie tells me that  29 we have very little time left on this tape so I  30 suggest we adjourn now.  31 MR. RUSH:  Very well.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  And complete the examination tomorrow morning.  33 MR. RUSH:  That's fine.  34 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  35  36 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  37 a true and accurate transcript of the  38 proceedings herein to the best of my  39 skill and ability.  40  41  42 Laara Yardley,  43  ~h2 Richard Benson (for Plfs.)  December 7, 1987  Ksan, B.C.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  RICHARD BENSON, Resumed: MR. MACAULAY:  This is the continuation of the commission evidence of Richard  Benson, and the continuation of the cross-examination of Mr. Benson by counsel  for the Attorney General of Canada.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY CONTINUED:  Q   And, Mr. Benson, is Kate Benson a member of the house of Luus or of  Gyolugyet?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  table?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH  Yes, that's right.  Which is it, is she a member of the house of Luus or --  Yeah, Luus too.  Luus .  M'hm.  She is a relative of yours?  Yeah.  What relationship is she; is she a sister, a cousin?  To who?  To you.  Oh, to Gyolugyet.  No.  Kate Benson, is she a member of your family?  Oh, Kate.  That's my aunty.  And Mary Danes is also a member of Luus house?  It's Gyolugyet.  A member of Gyolugyet?  Yes.  Mabel Johns, is she a member of Gyolugyet's house?  Yeah, that's right.  And Sam Green, is that a member of Gyolugyet's house?  Correct.  How about Jack Green?  Huh?  Jack Green, is that a member of Gyolugyet's house?  Yeah.  And Ester Wiiminosik, is that a member of Gyolugyet's house?  Yeah.  At the feast you sit now at -- not at Gyolugyet's table but at another  Yes.  And at the head of that table does the Kliiyem lax haa sit?  Yes.  At the head of the table?  Yes.  Do you sit on Kliiyem lax haa's left hand side or right hand side?  Kliiyem lax haa on the right hand side.  Is Kliiyem lax haa the same clan --  Yes.  -- As you?  M'hm.  And does Kliiyem lax haa come from Kuldo a long time ago?  Yes, that's right.  Was Kliiyem lax haa part of the wilnaat'ahl of Gyolugyet?  Yeah.  Perhaps that word should be translated, I think.  MR. MACAULAY:  Why?  Wilnaat'ahl?  MR. RUSH:  I think it's wilnaat'ahl.  MR. MACAULAY: Well, my pronunciation is bound to be a little shakey.  MR. RUSH: Maybe just ask the question again with the pronounciation.  MR. MACAULAY:  It's wilnaat'ahl. MR. RUSH:  Wilnaat'ahl.  I'm sure I'm not the expert here, Jim.  A  Wilnaat'ahl is the clan of the whole relatives of everybody.  That's  what they call wilnaat'ahl.  MR. MACAULAY:  Q   At Kuldo several houses were joined together as part of one  wilnaat'ahl?  A   Yes.  44 Q   And Kliiyem lax haa was in the same wilnaat'ahl as  45 Luus and Gyolugyet?  4 6       A   Yeah.  47       Q   And they're all the same clan, the wolf clan? 176  1 A Yeah, that's correct.  2 Q And Wii elaast, is that house also in the wilnaat'ahl  3 of Gyolugyet?  4 THE TRANSLATOR:  Wii elaast.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  Wii elaast.  6 A Yeah, that's right.  7 Q And the name that you have now, you have a name at the  8 feast, is that the name of the Wii elaast house?  9 A Yeah.  That's Kla'eeyuu you see sitting next, and I'm  10 on the other side.  11 MR. RUSH: He pointed to the right.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  To the right.  13 Q Were you adopted into the house of Wii elaast when you  14 took that name?  15 A Well, not -- I really belong.  Wii elaast want me to  16 take the name first, but I don't want it.  I was too  17 young at the time.  18 Q When you were young were you a member of the house of  19 Wii elaast?  20 A Yes.  Yes.  21 Q So you weren't a member of the house of Luus when you  22 were young?  23 A Yeah.  I really belonged to Luus.  24 Q Is it the same thing?  Is it all the same house, Wii  25 elaast and Luus?  2 6 A Yeah.  27 Q But in Kuldo in the old days did Wii elaast have his  28 own house, his own long house?  29 A Yes, that's right.  30 Q And Luus had his own long house?  31 A Yes.  32 Q And then Gyolugyet had another long house?  33 A Yes.  34 Q Gyolugyet was the head chief of --  35 A Kuldo.  36 Q Of Kuldo?  37 A Yes, that's right.  38 Q Now, I'm going to show the witness Exhibit 3 again.  39 Mr. Benson, I'm showing you the -- what's been marked  40 Exhibit 3 on this commission.  It's the application  41 for registration of a trapline, and you have given  42 evidence that you signed that document.  43 A Yes.  44 Q Your signature appears there.  And you'll see that on  45 that document there is a description of a trapline,  46 written description of a trapline.  47 A M'hm. 177  1 Q   At the last session of this commission evidence I had  2 asked you if part of the trapline registered in your  3 name goes over onto the territory of Ma'uus, and I  4 believe you said yes, it did.  Then there was an  5 intervention by counsel, and I'm not so sure that --  6 well, I know I should ask the question again.  So does  7 that trapline registered in your name cover a part of  8 Ma'uus territory?  9 A   Yeah.  10 Q   And does that trapline cover a part of the territory  11 of Haaxw?  That's H-A-A-X-W.  12 A   Yeah.  That's the one they owns that place before.  13 Q   And —  14 MR. RUSH:  Well, excuse me.  Just on that question the answer  15 was that he owns that place before.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  Yeah.  17 MR. RUSH:  It didn't seem to be directly responsive to that  18 question.  Did you want to --  19 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, yeah.  I think I'll —  20 Q   You know where the boundary of Haaxw's territory is?  21 A   That — that river.  22 Q   Well —  23 A   I'm talking about Xsagan Gaksda.  24 Q   The questions I'm asking you have to do with the  25 trapline territory.  The trapline that is described on  26 your -- that application.  Now, you have given  27 evidence that that was your application, and that  28 Chris Harris asked you to make that application.  And  29 I take it that after you made the application you  30 became the registered trapper on that trapline?  31 A   Yes, that's correct.  32 Q   And so the trapline document there, Exhibit 3,  33 describes a territory.  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And you've told me that that trapline territory covers  36 part of Ma'uus territory.  37 A   Yeah.  38 Q   And then I asked you if that same trapline territory  39 covered part of Haaxw's territory.  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  Haaxw.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  Haaxw.  42 THE TRANSLATOR:  Haaxw.  4 3 MR. MACAULAY:  H-A-A-X-W.  44 MR. RUSH:  Perhaps we could have the whole question translated  45 with the insertion of the name.  I'd suggest that as  4 6 perhaps the remedy.  47 MR. MACAULAY:  And — well, I'll finish off. 1 MR.  RUSH  2 MR.  MACA  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  3 9 MR.  RUSH  40  41  42 MR.  MACA  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  178  Okay.  LAY:  Now, I want to know if you agree that that trapline  that's described in Exhibit 3, that you're looking at  now, does include a small part, or a large part,  whichever it is, of the territory of Haaxw?  No, I didn't.  That's fine.  It does not include a part of the  territory --  No.  -- Of Haaxw?  Yes.  Does it include any part of the territory of Delgam  Uukw?  No.  No.  Does it include any part -- this trapline include  any part of the territory of the Wiigyet?  This trapline at the beginning it belongs to  Gyolugyet' s territory.  The same as Haaxw.  But there is a boundary, isn't there, between  Gyolugyet's territory and Luus territory and Wiigyet's  territory, there is a boundary there?  Yes.  There is a boundary.  Right at the beginning of  the trapline there's a boundary up, but it's way up  above the mountain on the right hand side.  That's the right hand side as you look north?  Yeah.  We can't -- we can't go up even too I belong to  Luus .  When you say Gyolugyet's territory you include in that  Yes.  You include Luus too?  Yes, that's right.  And does -- now, the trapline boundary, I'm not  talking about house boundary now, does the trapline  boundary include a part of what's -- what is Wiigyet's  territory?  Waiget?  There are two pretty -- there are two names that are  pretty close.  Maybe you could just show Fern which  one.  LAY:  It's W-I-I-G-Y-E-T.  Yeah.  Wiigyet is on the left hand side of that.  So the trapline you registered on includes in it --  within its boundary a part of Wiigyet's territory?  Yeah.  That's on the left hand side.  That's part of 179  1 that Ma'uus too.  2 Q   And Ma'uus too.  3 MR. RUSH:  Jim, I want to interject again, because I don't think  4 that answer with regard to Wiigyet was responsive, and  5 I would ask that be translated.  6 A   No.  Wiigyet is way down close to the Skeena there,  7 and it's way down.  It's not included any closer to on  8 this trapline.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  10 Q   Okay.  Does that trapline include any part of the  11 territory of Wii elaast?  12 A   No.  No.  13 Q   Does that trapline go down to the Skeena River?  14 A   Yeah.  Right.  15 Q   Yeah.  16 A   It starts at the Skeena and then go up to that creek.  17 Q   I'm showing you a carbon copy of a letter of the --  18 this is taken from the -- I'll show him the file.  19 MR. RUSH:  Do you want to just show it to me first?  2 0 MR. MACAULAY:  That's the one I showed you earlier.  21 MR. RUSH:  Oh, yes.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  That's the whole file.  23 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Very good.  24 MR. MACAULAY:  Perhaps you just pass it to Mr. Benson.  25 Q   I'm -- this is a file the Department of Indian Affairs  26 has kept in regard to the trapline registered in your  27 name, and on that is a carbon copy of a letter  28 addressed to you in Golden.  Do you remember receiving  29 that letter?  30 A   Yes.  But Jacob made the mistake, you see, that's why  31 he thought, you know, on the left side -- left hand  32 side as I go up and there's another little creek Gwiis  33 gan gaksda, that's the one see he -- he thought that I  34 registered.  That's why he made the mistake.  And  35 after that we straightened that out and then he  36 understand that.  That old man was really mad at me.  37 Q   Who was mad at you?  38 A   Jacob Morrison.  39 Q   Oh, Jacob Morrison.  40 A   Yeah.  He made the mistake.  He was old, you know, and  41 he's got no way going up there.  And somebody told him  42 I registered that place.  Well, it was registered, but  43 it was on that big, big creek Gwiis gan gaksda.  44 Q   So there was a mistake?  45 A   I told her -- I know Mrs. Morrison was talking to me  46 too.  I explained it to him and he shook hands with me  47 and said we made a mistake.  They told us you 180  1 registered on the left hand side, and I said no.  No  2 way.  3 Q   So that was straightened out?  4 A   Yes.  It straightened out.  And I told the old man  5 Jack Morrison too.  He met me here in town.  He was  6 really mad at me.  Who told you to do that.  And I  7 told him where is the register is.  And then he  8 understands.  Now, I understand.  Somebody told me  9 something is wrong, he said.  That's why I said this  10 to you.  Well, now I know.  Everything's all right.  11 He told me just forget about it.  And Morris Morrison  12 talked to me too, and I explained to him the same  13 thing.  14 Q   What chief's name does Mr. Morrison have?  15 MR. RUSH:  Which one?  16 MR. MACAULAY:  The one referred to in the letter.  It's Jacob  17 Morrison.  18 A   That's Ma'uus.  19 Q   That's Ma'uus?  2 0 A   Yeah.  21 Q   The letter you received was from Mr. Bailey, the  22 superintendent at the Babine agency, is it?  23 A   Is that the one here?  24 Q   Well, the carbon copy seems to show that.  When you  25 got the letter was it from the Department of Indian  26 Affairs?  27 A   No.  The letter I -- I didn't receive any letter from.  2 8 Anyways from the -- just from the Indian agent.  29 Q   From the Indian agent?  30 A   Yeah.  31 Q   Okay.  Was that a Mr. Bailey?  32 A   Yes.  And then we had that certain adaawk to say what  33 I do the rest.  34 Q   Now, the letter mentions Mr. Harris but doesn't  35 identify which Mr. Harris it is was involved in this  36 matter.  Was it Chris Harris who was involved in that?  37 A   Yeah.  He was -- he was the one that registered.  38 Q   Okay.  39 A   He's the one that put in the registration that I  40 didn't know anything about it, but after that he wants  41 his father's trapping ground just up above here on  42 Ironside Creek, so that's why he phoned me.  He wants  43 to transfer this, you know, the places.  It's so can  44 you do that to me.  I said yeah.  I registered that  45 place, but now I'm going to transfer the whole works  4 6 to you in your name. That's why I have to come down  47 in the Indian office.  And then we had that fixed up. 1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  181  And then is transferred into my name the whole.  That's how I got that trap -- trapping ground.  Now, when Chris Harris went to Ironside Creek that  was -- had been his father's trapline?  Yes.  And what house was his father?  That's Lax See'l.  What was the name of the chief, the head chief of that  house?  His name was Fritz.  Fritz?  It's Fritz.  Fritz, Fritz Harris.  Well, if you don't remember what his chief's name was  that's fine.  I remember his Fritz Harris.  They're not wolf clan?  No.  That's -- that's a frog.  We call it Lax See'l.  But Chris Harris was a member of the wolf clan?  Yes.  In fact he was Luus?  Yeah.  That was his chief name?  His name was Luus at the time.  And did Chris Harris' brother become Luus after Chris  died?  Yes.  That was Fred Harris?  That's Jeff.  Jeff Harris.  I'm sorry.  Yeah.  Jeff Harris.  Did Jeff Harris also trap at Ironside  Creek?  Yeah, he does.  He does now?  I don't know.  He used to?  Yeah.  What he told me was one of Fritz, the father's  relatives are going on there now.  And Jeff Harris is Luus today?  Yes, that's right.  And he was a commercial fisherman, wasn't he?  M'hm.  Yeah.  He had a boat?  Yes.  A big boat?  I don't know.  I never been down for a long time.  Oh.  And did he run a sawmill? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  2 0 MR.  RUS1  21 MR.  MACi  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  182  Huh?  Jeff, did Jeff Harris have a sawmill?  Chris and him a long time ago they had a sawmill, and  also Peter Muldoe.  Oh, it was the same sawmill, was it?  Yeah.  They had it together?  No.  Chris had his own.  And did Jeff have a sawmill with Peter Muldoe?  I really don't know, because they got -- both of them  got sawmill.  You remember Peter Robinson, don't you?  Yes.  And he used to trap near Kuldo?  Yes.  That's where he used to go on this -- on this  trapline.  He used to go on it?  But at the time it wasn't registered, but he belongs  to Gyolugyet.  He was pointing to Exhibit 3.  LAY:  Exhibit 3.  Peter Robinson used to trap on the trapline that's now  registered in your name?  Yes.  Did Albert Tate ever trap on this trapline that's  shown in Exhibit 3?  No.  No.  How long is it since you trapped on this trapline,  this Exhibit 3?  Oh, for long time.  I go there every fall and winter.  When was the last time you went on to this trapline,  this one that's registered in your name?  I forgot now what year was that.  Remember I told you  before when I was out and the fur drops out.  Well, you told me -- you told us that that was 1951  when the fur prices dropped.  Yes.  Was that the last time you trapped on this trapline?  Yes.  You -- now, do you know where Wallace and Fred Danes'  trapline is?  Wallace Danes?  Yeah, Wallace Danes and Fred Danes.  Yes.  They go -- if their trap -- I don't think they  got a trap, but they got their names of their father's  because their father is Gyolugyet at the time.  Well, after Gyolugyet died, that's Joseph Danes? 183  1 A Yes.  2 Q They got registered on part of Joseph Danes' trapline,  3 didn't they?  4 A Yeah.  Must because I saw it on the map.  5 Q You saw that on the map?  6 A Yeah.  That's Wallace.  7 Q Wallace.  Okay.  8 A The map.  9 Q And that's Xsa galliixawit Creek, isn't it?  10 A Yeah, that's -- what do you call that creek?  That's  11 Xsa'an lo'op.  12 MR. RUSH:  Xsa'an lo'op.  13 MR. MACAULAY:  Xsa'an lo'op Creek.  Sorry.  14 A Yeah.  Xsa'an lo'op.  15 Q And is that in Gyolugyet's territory?  16 A Yeah, that's right.  17 Q Now, earlier in your evidence you referred to your  18 brother Felix.  19 A Yes.  20 Q Who used to work for the City of Prince Rupert.  21 A Yes.  22 Q Does he live in Prince Rupert now?  23 A No.  He passed on in '51.  24 Q Felix died in 1951?  25 A Yeah.  2 6 Q And you mentioned that -- you gave the names of your  27 children.  2 8 A M'hm.  29 Q Do any of them live in the claim area that is the  30 Gitksan territory now?  31 A My children?  32 Q Yes.  You gave the names of six children, and I'm  33 asking you if any of them live in any of the villages.  34 A I just -- two of them live -- one is living in Glen  35 Vowell and Raymond is living in Vancouver somewhere.  36 Q Which one lives in Glen Vowell?  37 A Rosey.  Rosey Sampson.  38 Q Rosey.  And what's her married name?  That's her  39 married name, Sampson?  4 0 A That's her married name.  41 Q And her children -- does she have children?  42 A Yes.  43 Q Are they members of the house of Luus?  44 A No.  They're members of the house of Gutginuxw.  45 Q And how many children does she have?  46 A There's Karen Sampson and Geraldine.  Geraldine and  4 7 Gramps and Eddy. 184  1 Q And do they all live in Glen Vowell?  2 A Yeah.  They all live in -- Karen is living right here.  3 She is married to one of James Morrison's son.  4 Q Oh, those are your grandchildren?  5 A Yes.  6 Q Did any of your other children, your own children have  7 children themselves?  8 MR. RUSH:  Just before you go on to that question, is it agreed  9 that for the purposes of your question that Glen  10 Vowell is in, as you described it, the claim area?  11 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, yeah.  That's right.  12 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  13 MR. MACAULAY:  I didn't think there was any —  14 MR. RUSH:  No, I wasn't sure, because you defined it in a  15 fairly -- in a particular way, so.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  Okay.  17 Q Now, you -- your other children, you say one lives in  18 Vancouver?  19 A Yes.  20 Q And that's a son?  21 A Yeah, that's my son.  22 Q Does he have any children?  23 A Yes.  He had one -- I think he's got four living.  The  24 girl was Karen Lyle, and the other one was -- gee, I  25 forgot his -- Karen Lyle and -- and the other one was  2 6 his own name Raymond. I couldn't remember that. The  27 next one his nickname, Raymond always called him Stu.  2 8 MR. RUSH:  That's a good name.  2 9       A Yeah.  I couldn't remember his regular name.  Ever  30 since he was a little boy.  He still call him Stu  31 today.  That's what I call him too because that's all  32 I hear.  He's married in Vancouver.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  34 Q Stu is married?  35 A Yeah.  That's where they're living.  36 Q Now, this is your son Raymond's children you're  37 talking about?  38 A Yes, that's right.  39 Q Did he marry a Gitksan?  4 0       A Yeah.  41 Q And what house do the children belong to then?  42 A I think -- well, they belongs to Lax See'l, the frog.  43 Q Yes.  44 A Gee, I couldn't remember Shirley's --  45 Q Now, you can't remember Shirley's house at the moment?  46 A Yes.  47 Q But she belongs -- 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  185  But her mother's name was Stella -- Stella Lawson, but  she passed on a long time ago.  Now, you --  I think she belongs to the house of Haaxw.  That's all  I can remember, because I don't know Haaxw.  Now, her  husband has died not too long ago.  Yes.  You referred to your daughter Rosey.  The names  I wrote down were Thelma and Gladys.  Is one of them  called Rosey also?  Yeah.  Which one is called Rosey?  The one that lives in Glen Vowell now.  Yes.  Well, perhaps I made -- my notes were wrong  then.  You have a daughter called Thelma?  No.  That's my daughter Thelma.  Your -- you have a daughter named Thelma?  Yeah, the oldest daughter, but she passed on long time  ago.  And did she have children?  Yes.  She had two, Thelma.  One of them — two of them  are living in Glen Vowell.  One was Patsy, that was  Michelle (phonetic), and the other one is living  beside me.  That's Stella.  So they both live in Glen Vowell?  Yeah.  And what house do they belong to?  They belong to Gutginuxw house.  And you told me about Raymond.  How about Harvey.  You  had a son named Harvey?  Yes.  Did he have children?  No.  He wasn't even married.  And he died in  Vancouver.  And you had a daughter Gladys?  Yes.  Where -- did she have children?  Yes.  She had -- she only had one living now, but he's  living in Vancouver.  That's -- that's George  Crawford.  She married a man named Crawford?  Yes.  That's Gladys married Mike Crawford in Golden.  Is Mike Crawford a Gitksan?  No.  And they had two children, and one of them is still  alive, is that it?  Yes.  Who lives in Vancouver.  George Crawford? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  186  I guess I want to tell you this, when -- when George  wants to come with me, you see, and he doesn't want  that white name, so when he's working in Ottawa there,  I don't know where George was working, but he managed  to change his name.  He's got Benson.  And his name  now that George -- George Crawford Benson I seen.  When he come over here last summer he stay with me for  awhile.  His father was a white man, was he?  Yes.  But he is a member of the house of Luus?  No.  Member of the same as Gladys.  They belong to  Gutginuxws.  Oh, sorry.  Is Gladys still alive?  No.  How about Clifford, where does he live?  He died.  He's the first one that died, but he's in  Vancouver.  Oh.  Was he married?  No.  And Donald, that was another son?  Yes.  And was he married?  No.  And he died in Vancouver too.  Now, you mentioned just a minute ago in your evidence,  perhaps I misunderstood what you said, you mentioned a  daughter named Rosey?  Yes.  So you had seven children, did you?  Who me?  Yes.  Yes, that's right.  And they were all children of you and your first wife  Eva?  Yes, that's right.  You have a sister whose married name is Ethel Harris?  Huh?  Does -- do you have a sister called Ethel Harris?  Is  one of your sisters named Ethel?  Yes.  And is her married name Harris?  That was -- when she got married she married to -- to  Andrew Wilson.  Oh, so her married name is Wilson?  Yes.  And where does she live?  They live down Cedarvale. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  187  And her children, where do they live?  One of them lives in -- in Kitsegukla, and the other  one lives -- Tony lives in Kispiox, and the other  one -- the oldest one lives in Prince Rupert.  Her  name is Joyce.  Joyce McKenzie now.  She is married.  Is her husband a Gitksan?  No.  That's why she got that name McKenzie.  When you made a -- your trips to other parts of the  province in connection with the land claim you were  working with the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council?  No.  When I started out I was with the union chiefs in  Vancouver.  Did you ever work with the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal  Council?  Yes.  And when you were working with that tribal council did  you deal with the -- the Nishka people and their  claims?  No.  You were never asked to look into that problem?  No.  But you were asked to go to see the Stikine people?  Yes.  Was that by the tribal council?  Yes.  And was the purpose of your visit to the Stikine  people to confirm with them that they had no claim on  part of the Gitksan territory?  Yes.  Did you visit any other of the neighbouring nations  for the same purpose, to see if they had a claim that  overlapped the Gitksan claim?  Well, at the beginning that's what -- when the Nass  River put in that claim to the high court.  Are you talking about a case in court?  Yes.  In 1973?  Around then?  M'hm.  Well, you know all the Gyolugyets that's right  up to the Nass, they covered the whole --  You mean the people of the Nass.  That's the Nishka,  isn't it?  Yes.  And the Nishka were claiming part of Gyolugyet's  territory?  The whole works.  Everything up there.  But you didn't negotiate with the Nishka people about  that, did you? 1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  188  I -- yes, we did once, you know.  The tribal council  had a big -- the biggest feast in Kitwanga, and they  invite the Nass River.  And my wife, my late wife was  so sick that I couldn't go down to that feast.  Oh, so you didn't take part in that?  No.  Do you know what happened as a result of the feast?  Yes.  Our president tell me about that.  Well, was the problem solved?  Yeah.  It was solved?  M'hm.  So the Nishka no longer claim any part of Gyolugyet's  territory?  No.  No way they can do it, because they don't know  it.  They never been on there all their life.  In your evidence you told us that Mary Anne Jack  objected to Peter Green going up on to the territory?  Yeah, that's right.  And Peter Green was Ben McKenzie's companion, was he?  Yeah.  Of course Ben McKenzie because he was Mary McKenzie's  husband had a right to go on the territory?  Correct.  And he has that right so long as Mary McKenzie is  alive?  Yes.  Is that how it works?  Yes, that's how it works.  Well, who was Peter Green?  What connection does he  have with Gyolugyet?  Well, Peter Green was -- was Sam's son.  That's why he  has the right.  No.  Sam Green had a right to trap on Joseph Danes'  territory?  Yes.  Yes.  Does the son also have a right to trap on the  territory?  Yeah.  So long as his father's alive?  M'hm.  What happened when -- is -- is Sam still alive?  No.  He passed on long time ago.  Well, when Sam died did that end Peter Green's right  to go on to the territory?  Yeah.  That's what Mary Anne said, but he knows the  country, you know, because he was raised up there. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22 MR.  RUSH  23  24  25  26  2 7 MR.  MACA  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  189  Yes.  That's why he -- he goes -- that's why he goes with  Ben McKenzie that time.  But he didn't have a right to go after his father  died?  Well, I tell you the reason why my aunty don't like --  don't like him there, because when he goes and find  the traps that belongs to them he takes them all.  That's why Mary Anne told him to get off.  Does he still go up and do trapping?  No.  Peter -- Peter Green?  No.  He's not allowed to be living in here any more  because he shot a man up above here.  That's -- Peter  Green, he's still in Vancouver in --  Oh.  In the place, but he's not allowed to -- to be here.  Now, Johnathon Brown was registered on the trapline  after his father died; do you remember?  Yes.  And his father was -- that was Albert?  You've asked a lot of questions about who was  registered on what traplines.  While I don't object to  that, I think there is an element of hearsay in this.  I would just ask you if you would ask him how he  knows, for example.  LAY:  The witness gave evidence about his father Albert  Green.  You knew Albert Brown, did you?  Yes.  And was he -- was he Wii'goob'l?  That's right.  That was his chief's name?  Yes.  And was Wii'goob'l in the -- in the wilnaat'ahl of  Gyolugyet?  Nope.  Are they a different clan?  Yes.  Are they fireweed clan?  No.  That's Lax See'l.  That's a frog.  They are frog clan?  Yeah.  Now, after Albert Brown died then Johnathon Brown, his  son, wouldn't have a right to go on the Wii'goob'l  territory, would he?  No. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  190  But still Johnathon Brown got registered on the  trapline.  Do you know whether he got registered on  his father's trapline or not?  No, I don't think so.  Well, you gave evidence a few days ago that Johnathon  Brown sold a trapline to a man named Lorring?  Yeah.  That's what -- that's what I said.  And as we  got all the maps at the tribal council and I see that  Johnathon sold the trapline which he's got nothing to  do with it.  He shouldn't do that?  No.  But that same trapline, that used to be Albert Brown's  trapline?  M'hm.  That's Wii'goob'Is.  But Johnathon Brown isn't a member of his father's  house, he's a member of his mother's house, isn't he?  Yes, that's right.  So he shouldn't have been registered himself,  Johnathon; is that right?  That's right.  You gave evidence the other day that there's a man  named Alex Williams who lives in Moricetown who's  Luus?  Yeah.  But Jeff Harris is also Luus?  Yeah.  But you shouldn't have two men both named Luus?  Well, I don't know.  That's what -- that's why my  grandfather said you might as well take Luus too in  Glen Vowell he said.  Your grandfather didn't like the idea of having two  men named Luus?  Yeah, that's right.  Did you ever speak to Alex Williams of Moricetown  about that?  Yes.  You know him, do you?  I really do know him.  That's my grandfather.  You  know, he lives in Kitwanga when he was really young,  but I was only about that high.  I guess I can't  remember.  But you can't have two men named Luus, can you?  Yeah, that's right.  But he lives in Moricetown so.  He doesn't come to the feast?  No.  He never come to Kispiox.  When was the last pole raising in the -- in Luus 191  1 house?  Was there -- can you remember the raising of a  2 pole by Luus?  3 A   No.  4 Q   Have you been told by your -- your parents or your  5 grandparents about pole raisings in the past?  6 A   That's right.  7 Q   Have you ever seen the old poles that were raised by  8 Luus?  9 A   No.  10 Q   One of your ancestors --  11 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me.  The question was -- I wasn't sure about  12 the question.  I'm not sure if the witness understood  13 it.  Was it that have you ever seen the pole raised  14 by --  15 MR. MACAULAY:  One of the Luus.  16 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  17 MR. MACAULAY:  The chief who had the name Luus.  18 MR. RUSH:  All right.  That's what I understood it, but also by  19 the use of the word raising I thought you meant had  20 you ever seen the pole raising of Luus.  21 MR. MACAULAY:  No.  I think it's quite clear he didn't see a  22 pole raising.  I asked him if he ever saw a pole that  23 had been raised in earlier times by one of the men or  24 women who had the name Luus, and I believe the witness  25 said no, he hadn't.  26 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  2 7 MR. MACAULAY:  28 Q   Is one of your ancestors, I won't even try to  29 pronounce it, I'll spell it, Y-U-K-X-W?  30 A   Yeah.  31 Q   That's the name of one of your ancestors?  32 A   No.  No.  You see, what is that mean is Yukxw.  You  33 see, you just asked me the question if I see Luus.  34 Q   Pole —  35 A   See like raise the pole like that and then spent a lot  36 of money, so that's what we call Yukxw.  That's the  37 biggest feast that you ever see.  38 Q   Oh, it's not the name of a person?  39 A   No.  40 Q   It's the description of a feast?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Do you remember any -- did you see any pole raising by  43 Gyolugyet, any of the persons who were named that  4 4           name?  45       A   Yes.  4 6       Q   You did?  47       A   Yes.  In Kispiox.  And my Aunty Mary Anne raised one. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  192  Mary Anne's name was not Gyolugyet though, was it?  Yes.  She belongs right in that house.  Oh, yeah, but her name was Kwamoon or --  Suu wii gos.  Suu wii gos?  Yeah.  Her name was Suu wii gos.  Always got lots of names.  Suu wii gos and Gadiilo'o.  She raised a pole?  Yes.  And she had that big feast?  Yeah.  But she wasn't Gyolugyet?  Yes.  She belongs to Gyolugyet.  She didn't have the name Gyolugyet?  No.  Did any person who had the name of Gyolugyet, the big  chief, did any person with the name Gyolugyet raise a  pole that you can remember?  No.  But what I use as a pole, you know, they buy a  tombstone for so many thousand dollars and they do the  same thing as they do when raising the pole, when they  put it on.  You mean the ceremony is the same?  Yes.  Is that -- this -- is it -- you're saying that today  instead of raising poles most chiefs have tombstones?  Yeah.  They part -- you see like in Glen Vowell there  that thing is worth $4,000.  And now after a chief dies it's the responsibility of  that chief's successor, the person who takes the name,  to put up the tombstone?  Yes, that's right.  And it takes time after the funeral and before the  tombstone can be bought and paid for and put in place.  It takes what, a couple of years?  Well, I'll tell you just like what they do when  they're raising pole.  The whole relatives of the  chief all put in the money there.  Yeah.  And they got it paid right there in the feast.  But the process of having feasts and then getting the  tombstone and finally putting up the tombstone --  M'hm.  -- That takes -- usually takes two or three years?  Not with us it doesn't.  You see, if -- if somebody  died and they get the tombstone in Terrace, in 193  1 Smithers there, and it's worth maybe 4,000, well the  2 whole relatives of that chief when he put up a feast  3 well, the chief may be putting in a thousand, maybe  4 1,500, and the next one come in and throw in 500  5 there, and the next one five.  Maybe this ones got lot  6 of money he put in a thousand dollars too.  7 Q   So —  8 A   200.  Pretty soon if I happen to belong to my father  9 there -- I don't belong there, but I put in some money  10 too.  That's how they work it.  11 Q   So it goes a lot faster now?  12 A   Yes.  13 MR. MACAULAY:  Perhaps we can take an adjournment now and I'll  14 see what further material I have to cover.  15 MR. RUSH:  Very well.  16  17      (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  18  19 MR. MACAULAY:  20 Q   Mr. Benson, I'm showing you a map.  I can tell you  21 this was attached to an affidavit made by Jeffrey  22 Harris, who was Luus, and it shows a territory of Luus  23 in the main part of the map.  Do you recognize that  24 territory?  Are you familiar with it?  25 MR. RUSH:  First should you not ask him if he recognizes the map  26 and set that stage?  2 7 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, yes.  28 Q   Do you recognize the map?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And the -- there is a Luus territory which has as one  31 of its borders a stretch of the Skeena River?  32 A   Yeah.  33 Q   And do you know whether or not Alec Brown has a  34 trapline registered which includes the northern part  35 of this territory?  36 A  Alec Brown?  37 Q   Yeah, Alec Brown or Wilmer Johnson?  38 THE TRANSLATOR:  I'm sorry.  39 A   Yeah.  40 MR. RUSH:  Yeah to what?  Maybe the question again.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  42 Q   I was asking if you knew that Alec Brown and Wilmer  43 Johnson had a trapline which included the northern  44 part of this Luus territory shown on this map?  45 A   Yeah.  Yeah, I recognize that.  46 Q   Does Alec Brown or Wilmer Johnson trap in the northern  47 part of Luus territory now? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10 MR.  RUSH  11 MR.  MACA  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  2 9 MR.  RUSH  30  31 MR.  MACA  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  194  No.  Is Alec Brown a member of the house of Luus?  Yeah, part of it.  He is a member of Luus house, is he?  M'hm.  And is Wilmer Johnson?  But he stays in Kisagas though.  He stays where?  Kisagas.  Kisagas.  LAY:  Kisagas?  Yeah.  He lives there, does he?  Yeah.  Still today?  No.  He died long time ago.  Nobody's living today.  And how about Wilmer Johnson, has he died too?  Wilmer?  I don't know about Wilmer.  Well, like today,  you know, I'm only one that's alive that knows all  these territories here.  I realize that, and that's why I'm asking you these  questions.  Yes.  I think Jeff knows too.  That's my brother.  I  call my brother anyway.  Well, Jeff isn't here today so I want to ask you about  this northern part of Luus territory.  Was Wilmer  Johnson a member of the house of Luus?  Excuse me.  Judging from his response maybe you  should ask him if he knows Wilmer Johnson first.  LAY:  Do you know who Wilmer Johnson is, or was?  I don't think so.  Okay.  But if I say I know him I'd know him if he's still  alive.  But you do remember Alec Brown?  Yes, I know because I met him out someplace around  here once in awhile.  And he was trapping?  Yes.  Him and his wife.  I forgot his wife's name now.  Bella they called that woman.  And did Alec Brown have a name, a chief's name in Luus  house?  I forgot.  He got a name, but I couldn't remember it.  When he was alive did he sit at Luus table, the same  at the feast? 195  1 A   No.  At that feast they lived in Kisagas and they're  2 not around or down here.  3 Q   Alec Brown didn't come to the feast?  4 A   No.  Just once in awhile.  5 Q   When he did come to the feast he sat at Luus table,  6 did he?  7 A   Yeah.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  Okay.  I'm showing you another map.  Oh, before  9 we do that could we have this map marked Exhibit 4, I  10 guess it is the Jeffrey Harris map.  11 MR. RUSH:  So this would be described as the draft copy of the  12 map that was attached to the Jeffrey Harris  13 interrogatory?  14 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  Affidavit.  15 MR. PLANT:  The way that Mr. Rush put that I can't accept.  It  16 was the map attached and it is marked draft copy.  17 MR. MACAULAY:  I took that to be what he meant.  18 MR. PLANT:  Yeah.  Okay.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  Yeah.  20  21 (EXHIBIT 4:  Draft copy of map attached  22 to the Jeffrey Harris interrogatory affidavit)  23  2 4 MR. MACAULAY:  25 Q   Now, I'm showing you another map that was attached to  26 the interrogatory affidavit of Jeffrey Harris, and  27 right in the middle of that map there is a territory  28 shown.  And do you recognize that to be another  29 territory of Luus?  30 A   Yeah.  That's — that's Niist.  31 Q   And the left hand side.  On the west side there's  32 Niist?  33 A   That's Niist on this side.  34 Q   But in the middle of the map there's a territory  35 there?  36 A  M'hm.  37 Q   And above it is the territory with -- that has the  38 name Wii minosik?  39 A   Yes.  That's on this side.  40 Q   Well, you recognize that territory in the middle?  It  41 hasn't got a house name on it.  42 A   I couldn't pronounce our own name.  43 THE INTERPRETER:  Xsi lax uu.  44 MR. RUSH:  Well, is -- you're saying in Gitksan a word that's on  45 the map, are you?  46 A   Yeah, that's right.  It's here.  Right.  4 7 MR. MACAULAY: 196  1 Q   That's the name of a creek, isn't it, or a ridge?  2 A   Xsi lax uu.  That's means --  3 THE INTERPRETER:  Xsi lax uu Ando'o.  4 A   Oh, it's an -- I'm a funny man.  5 THE INTERPRETER:  Xsi lax uu Ando'o.  6 A   Oh, yes.  I know what -- yeah, I really recognize it  7 now because the -- yeah.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  The names of these creeks help you recognize that  territory?  Yes.  Have you been there?  Yes, I walked through there.  It's Xsi lax uu.  You  know, that means that creek comes from a swamp or  meadow.  That's what Xsi lax uu means.  When you were on that territory were you trapping?  Nope.  What year -- do you remember what year you were up  there on that territory?  When I walked through there I think it's -- it's kind  of early.  I come from -- must be around '37.  About 1937?  Yes.  24 MR. MACAULAY:  Okay.  Could this map, which I think the witness  25 was able to recognize --  26 MR. RUSH:  Well, he said he recognized some of the names.  27 MR. MACAULAY:  Yeah.  Could that map — it's marked draft copy  28 and it's one of the maps attached to Jeffrey Davis --  29 MR. RUSH:  Harris.  30 MR. MACAULAY:  Sorry.  Jeffrey Harris' affidavit be marked  31 Exhibit 5.  32 A   That's correct.  I recognize it when they pronounced  33 the name there.  34  35 (EXHIBIT 5:  Map)  36  37 MR. MACAULAY:  Do you know if Wallace Danes has a trapline that  includes this Luus territory?  No.  You don't know if he's registered there?  No.  And you don't know if he ever trapped there, Wallace  Danes?  No.  I don't think he ever trapped in his life.  Oh.  Joseph Danes used to trap up there, did he?  Yes.  M'hm.  He goes out every year or else he stay  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A 197  1 out all winter and come home in the spring.  2 Q   Do you know anybody who traps there now?  3 A   No.  Nobody's trapping now.  4 Q   Is Stephen Morrison a member of the house of Luus or  5 Gyolugyet?  6 A   Yes.  In the first place he really belongs to Luus.  7 Q   Oh.  8 A  And then after that and then he got the name of Wii  9 elaast, that's when -- but he still belong in the  10 s ame.  11 Q   And Martha Brown, is she a member of the house of  12 Luus?  13 A   Yeah.  That's Kliiyeem lax haa.  14 Q   Martha Brown is Kliiyeem lax haa?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   So she doesn't belong to the house of Luus, or does  17 she belong to both houses?  18 A   Yeah.  Something like that, because she sits on  19 this -- on their own table.  20 Q   She is at the head of the table?  21 A   Yeah.  22 Q   Well, when she was young what house did she belong to  23 before she had a big name?  24 A   I forgot that.  25 MR. RUSH:  Sorry.  Who are you talking about?  2 6 MR. MACAULAY:  Martha Brown who's now Kliiyeem lax haa, as I  27 understand.  28 MR. RUSH:  She has passed on.  She is deceased.  29 MR. MACAULAY:  I see.  Yes.  30 MR. RUSH:  It's just that there is another Kliiyeem lax haa.  It  31 should be clear which one we're referring to.  32 MR. PLANT:  There is another Martha Brown.  33 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yeah, there are two Martha Browns.  34 MR. MACAULAY:  35 Q   We are talking now about the laday named Martha Brown  36 who was Kliiyeem lax haa.  Who you tell me -- who's no  37 longer -- and I'm asking which house when she was  38 young and before she had a chief's name what house she  39 belonged to.  And if you don't know, Mr. Benson --  40 A   No.  There is another one in Kispiox that's Mihlaxs.  41 Q   Another Martha Brown?  42 A   No.  That's where Martha belongs before she gets that  43 Kliiyeem lax haa.  44 MR. MACAULAY:  Could we have the spelling of that?  45 THE TRANSLATOR:  M-I-H-L-A-X underlined, S.  4 6 MR. MACAULAY:  47       Q   Is that a chief's name in Luus house? 198  1 A No.  That's Kliiyeem lax haa.  2 Q Kliiyeem lax haa?  3 A Yeah.  4 Q And before she had that name she was still in Kliiyeem  5 lax haa's house?  6 A Yes.  7 Q Now, Hazel Dick, is she a member of the house of -- or  8 was she a member of the house of Luus?  9 A Yes, that's right.  10 Q Yes.  And Amelia Angus, was she a member of the house  11 of Luus?  12 A Correct.  13 Q And Pauline Jack?  14 A Yes.  15 Q She was a member of the house of Luus?  16 A M'hm.  17 Q Is she a daughter of -- Amelia, of Mary Anne Jack,  18 Pauline?  19 A No, I don't think so.  20 Q How about Ellen Johnson, is that a member of the house  21 of Luus?  22 A Yes, that's right.  Her chief name was Anhloo'.  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  Can I answer?  24 MR. RUSH: Well, I think it should be translated what was said.  2 5 MR. MACAULAY:  I was waiting for it.  26 THE INTERPRETER:  Who has the name Anhloo' in Kispiox today.  27 MR. RUSH: I think not.  28 A I could remember that I was there, but there's too  2 9 many -- too many names.  3 0 MR. MACAULAY:  31 Q Did you know Fritz Harris before he died?  32 A Yes.  33 Q Did he have a ranch near Glen Vowell?  34 A Yes.  He did have one across Glen Vowell.  35 Q Across the river?  36 A Yeah.  37 Q Do you know what happened to the Fritz Harris ranch?  38 A I don't know.  Maybe it's a Crown land.  He's not on  39 the reserve.  40 Q No.  But after he died he had a ranch off the reserve,  41 didn't he, across the river?  42 A No.  It's not even on the reserve at all.  43 Q Right.  But when he died -- when Fritz Harris died  44 what happened to his ranch that was on Crown land?  45 A Well, before he died, you know, he give it to his son  46 Chris.  He's got a good house there.  Well built  47 house. 199  1 Q   Oh.  2 A   So Chris tear that house down, you know, and move it  3 to Kispiox because it had real good lumbers on it.  4 And after that Fritz gave that house to — that land  5 to Chris, but after he died and Chris sold that land.  6 Q   And who's there today on that land?  7 A  At the beginning I know the man that used to work --  8 used to work for him.  That was Halverson, the white  9 man that bought that land.  10 Q   From Chris?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Oh.  13 A   But now nobody lives there because the millionaire  14 bought the whole works right from across Glen Vowell  15 up to Salmon River.  16 Q   Some millionaire?  17 A   Yeah.  He clear that land.  That's why we got too  18 much -- in Glen Vowell.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  I have no further questions.  Thank you, Mr.  20 Benson.  Mr. Rush has.  21 MR. PLANT:  Before —  22 MR. RUSH:  Just before you object too, the two maps that you've  23 introduced as exhibits, do you -- we have been making  24 a practice of my holding on to the original exhibits,  25 and I think it makes sense to carry on with that.  2 6 MR. MACAULAY:  Right.  Okay.  We'll have to ask you to let us  27 have copies if you've got them.  2 8 MR. RUSH:  Yeah.  29 MR. MACAULAY:  Those were the very ones — we're off the record  3 0 now.  31 MR. RUSH:  No.  I think let's keep on the record, because I  32 think Geoff wants to do something as well.  33 MR. PLANT:  I have copies of Exhibits 4 and 5, so I don't have  34 to ask for them.  But before Mr. Rush commences with  35 his re-examination, assuming he has one, during my  36 cross-examination of Mr. Benson I produced to Mr.  37 Benson a copy of the draft map for the territory of  38 Gyolugyet which was attached to the interrogatories,  39 affidavit of Mrs. Mary McKenzie, and Mr. Benson, as I  40 recall, was unable to identify the map.  I had a  41 discussion with Mr. Rush off the record, and the  42 upshot of that was that Mr. Macaulay signed a copy, of  43 course, signed the original of the map, because as I  44 understood it Mr. Rush took objection to having the  45 map marked as an exhibit on the commission.  Now, last  46 week I wrote to Mr. Rush and asked him to reconsider  47 his position, and I didn't have a reply to the letter, 200  probably because time didn't permit, and so I would  repeat that request now, namely the map which I put to  Mr. Benson on his cross-examination, and which he did  not identify or recognize, be marked as an exhibit on  this examination.  MR. RUSH:  Well, you've given just the reason for why it  shouldn't be marked as an exhibit, and that is that he  didn't identify it.  And if we're working on the basis  that documents that are put to witnesses and are going  to be properly identified then I think if there is an  inability to identify any document it's not  admissible, and I don't know on what basis you're  saying that it's admissible here or at the trial or  anywhere else.  PLANT:  I think that a witness' failure to identify a  document is as relevant and admissible as his  identification of it, but I don't need to clutter the  record with discussion of whether or not my position  is correct or yours isn't.  I take it you're still  obj ecting?  RUSH:  Yes, that's right.  MACAULAY:  Why not mark it A for identification as we do at  trial in cases like this.  That seems to me to be the  best way to address the issue in a situation like  that.  Obviously it's not evidence until counsel for  the province leads evidence that will prove it at  trial.  MR. PLANT:  That's really all I wish to achieve.  29 MR. RUSH:  Yeah.  Well, if you're saying that at some future  30 date you're going to lead evidence about the proof of  31 this document then I think Mr. Macaulay's suggestion  32 is not a bad one in the circumstances given that we've  33 already got one document that's for identification.  34 What I say to you, however, is that I have an  35 objection here, and whether it's made at a commission  36 or at the trial if a document isn't identified then  37 it's not properly admissible.  What you're talking  38 about in terms of this particular witness' evidence,  39 that's another issue.  You can make of that what you  40 wish.  I say to you that, you know, essentially you  41 put a document which he doesn't know about, and I see  42 no basis for it going in.  I take it what you're  43 saying, and what you said before frankly, you're going  44 to try to prove this at some other time.  You know,  45 I'm not taking a position on it.  If you want to put  46 it in as Exhibit 2 for identification then that's --  47 that's fine with me.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21 MR.  22 MR.  23  24  25  26  27  2i 201  1 MR. PLANT:  Well, let's do that then.  There is no question in  2 my mind that this witness has been unable to identify  3 this document.  It's just for the purpose of  4 establishing which document it is he was unable to  5 identify that I want to have the court reporter's  6 stamp on it.  7 MR. RUSH:  Well, as I say —  8 MR. PLANT:  It will not become evidence —  9 MR. RUSH:  And then —  10 MR. PLANT:  — Unless at some point the proof of it is  11 perfected, if I could put it that way.  12 MR. RUSH:  And therefore whether or not this document was the  13 one that he was unable to identify would be irrelevant  14 if it's not at some later point identified, or as you  15 say, perfected in identification.  16 MR. PLANT:  I think I agree with that.  Yes.  17 MR. RUSH:  I think it goes in.  That's Exhibit 2 for  18 identification.  19  20 (EXHIBIT 2 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Map)  21  22 MR. RUSH:  Now, Mr. Benson, when — the last time that I asked  23 you questions I showed you a photocopy of three  24 photographs that we marked number one for  25 identification, and I now have received prints of  26 these, and I want to simply have these marked now as  27 Exhibits 1A, IB and 1C, starting from the top of the  2 8 photocopy and moving to the bottom in that order.  And  29 I take it from your position before, Mr. Macaulay and  30 Mr. Plant, that you wouldn't have any objection to my  31 doing this?  32 MR. MACAULAY:  I have no objection.  33 MR. RUSH:  All right.  These are copies for you.  I'm giving you  34 copies of these, as I indicated that I would, so that  35 you would have a better -- a better copy for your  36 files.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  Thank you.  MR. RUSH:  So I've provided you with those copies, and I'd like  to have them marked Exhibits 1A, B and C in this  commission, and I'll just give them to you now.  That  will be 1A.  (EXHIBIT 1A:  Photograph)  (EXHIBIT IB:  Photograph)  (EXHIBIT 1C:  Photograph)  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 202  1  2 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:  3 Q   All right.  Can we proceed now.  Mr. Benson, you said  4 that your wife Eva Wesley was from the house of  5 Gutinuxw?  6 A   Correct.  7 Q   And you indicated to Mr. Plant that your second wife,  8 Grace Sexsmith, that she was related to Eva Wesley?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Were they in the same house?  Were they in the  11 house --  12 A   They were in the same house with Gutginuxw.  13 Q   Okay.  You also mentioned the name of Austin Matthews.  14 Do you remember that name?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Do you know, did Austin Matthews, did he have a  17 Gitksan name that you recall?  18 A   I believe he's Gwoimt.  19 Q   He was Gwoimt?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Was -- he was from Gwoimt's house then?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Okay.  You told Mr. Plant that in the depression you  24 did some logging.  And I want to ask you if that at  25 that time was your main activity logging, or was it  26 trapping?  27 A   I do the trapping first, but like what I tell them  28 when the fur gets down so low so I just start cutting.  29 Q   Okay.  Do you remember when -- when you first started  30 the logging?  Do you remember the date?  31 A   '41 I think.  32 Q   Okay.  Now, you said that Mary Anne Jack told you  33 stories about the battle between the Stikine and the  34 Gitksan at the head of Xsihl guugan?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And that that -- and you said that this battle  37 occurred a long time ago?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   How long ago did it occur?  40 A  Must be long time ago because my aunty was young at  41 the time.  42 Q   Was she alive when this battle happened or did it  43 happen before her?  44 A  Well, I believe to what she knows about it is when her  45 mother tell her about everything.  46 Q   She heard about it from her mother?  47 A   Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Q  203  And did she ever tell you how long before her mother  that this story happened?  No.  Okay.  Now, did this battle involve the territory at  the head of Xsihl guugan?  Yes.  And do you know who won the battle?  That's Mary Anne's grandfather, or the rest of the  relatives.  Okay.  Was Suu wii gos involved in this battle?  Yes.  That's what she said.  But she wasn't Suu wii  gos at the time.  No.  No.  Now, you said -- remember that you said you  went up to Iskit and you talked to an old man up there  about the head waters of Xsihl guugan?  Yeah.  Do you remember who you talked to?  Well, he was one of the oldest in Iskit.  I didn't  know his chief name, but he was -- his name was Louie  Louie.  Louie Louie?  Yeah.  And was Louie Louie or is Louie Louie a Stikine  person?  Yes.  Now, you also told us about another story, and you  said that this was a story that your grandfather had  told you, and this was about three starving Stikine  people --  Yes.  -- Who came to Kuldo.  And they were fed by the Kuldo  people.  Correct.  And I wanted to ask you how long ago did your  grandfather say that this happened?  That must be a very long time ago.  You also said that -- you mentioned to Mr. Plant that  the Stikine people were travelling people.  Yes.  Correct.  What did you mean by the fact that you said they were  travelling people?  Well, in those days it's not like us now.  You see,  you go to the store, there isn't no store.  That was  way before the European people comes around.  Those  people they don't put up anything for the winter, you  see, that's why they travel.  I see.  Were the Stikine people from Iskit? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  204  No.  They're really from the next -- you know, really  Stikine is way past Meziadin Lake.  Okay.  Now, you also told us that your father -- that  your father when you were younger told you about the  battle with the Stikine at Meziadin Lake?  Correct.  And did he tell you how long ago that happened?  How  long before him?  I don't know.  See it's -- but he did see the -- the  whole first Wilitsxw, you know, man that's got his jaw  split.  So can you say how long ago it was before him?  No.  I don't think I really could.  Okay.  Was your -- was your grandfather, that is  before your father, did he have the name Wilitsxw?  No.  He told me when the first Wilitsxw was still  there, you know, and my grandfather after that would  die and that's when he took that name.  I see.  Okay.  You told us that the Stikine people  gave a gaff and a hook with a fish on it to the  Wilitsxw, the man that held Wilitsxw at the time.  And  was that a peace settlement?  Yes.  And did Wilitsxw get the territory as a result of that  settlement at Meziadin Lake?  Correct.  Now, Mr. Plant asked you some questions about button  blankets.  Do you remember those questions about the  chiefs wearing button blankets?  Yes.  And my question to you is are the button blankets worn  at every Gitksan feast that is held?  Right.  In the holiday, you know, before they entered  the feast house.  I saw it in Kitwanga when I was just  a small little kid wherever one like that they come  in.  Are they worn at every feast today?  No.  Or have they been worn through your life time?  Do the  chiefs always wear their button blankets to the feast  hall?  Yes.  Sometimes they do when the -- they do that now  when this chief died and they had the button blanket  like that.  Sometimes they wear them?  Yes.  Is it true from what you say that sometimes they 205  1 don't?  2 A   That's correct.  Today they don't wear it at all.  3 Q   Okay.  Does the chief -- is it the chief who decides  4 when he or she will wear the button blanket?  5 A  Well, right today I don't see it any more.  Just when  6 the big chief died they had the blanket.  Whoever put  7 those things up on these, so these other chiefs grab  8 that blanket and put it on the new chief.  He's the  9 one that take that name.  10 Q   You've seen that today, haven't you?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And is it a chief who decides to do that, to put the  13 blanket on the other chief?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   If a chief -- if a chief who has -- who has taken a  16 big name does -- does not wear his button blanket does  17 he still have power without the button blanket?  18 A   Yeah.  Today they do.  19 Q   You were asked about trapping and the kind of traps  20 that you used when you were out trapping yourself.  21 And Mr. Plant asked you if you had used a deadfall  22 trap.  23 A   Yes.  24 MR. PLANT:  No.  I think that came out in the examination in  25 chief, and it did come out again in cross, but I don't  26 believe I asked him.  27 MR. RUSH:  The question was did you use the -- were deadfall  28 traps used before you were born, and his answer was  29 yes, they were used before he was born.  And that led,  30 to my way of thinking, to an ambiguity as to whether  31 or not they were used after he was born given the fact  32 his evidence on chief --  33 MR. MACAULAY:  He gave evidence —  34 MR. PLANT:  — In chief that he had used —  35 MR. MACAULAY:  — That he had on one occasion, at least one  36 occasion used one.  He tried it out, as I think he put  37 it.  38 MR. PLANT:  He found it worked better than the steel trap.  39 A   That's true.  When it drops that meat's dead.  There's  40 this — no —  41 MR. MACAULAY:  He remembers the statement.  42 MR. RUSH:  Yes, he does.  Very good.  43 Q   Now, Mr. Benson, you also mentioned that -- you said  44 Saanoos' trapping ground was at Xsi wil negwit.  45 A   Correct.  46 Q   And you said that this was Charlie Sampson, Niist?  47 A   Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  206  Is Saanoos in Niist's house?  Was the Saanoos you were  talking about in Niist's house?  Yeah.  They belong together because Saanoos and Niist  is, I think, it's on the left hand side.  They call  that Xsi luu wit wii dit.  Okay.  Now, you said -- you mentioned the lake called  T'am sabaaya.  Yes.  Is that lake, is that in Niist's territory?  No, it's on Saanoos.  It's on Saanoos' territory?  Territory.  And he's in the house of Niist?  Yes.  They're right close together then.  Okay.  All right.  I want to ask you about Xsi  maasxwit lo'op.  Do you remember the questions Mr.  Plant asked you about concerning Xsi maasxwit lo'op?  Yes.  Okay.  And you told us that you went to — you went up  Xsi maasxwit lo'op with Phillip and Albert Brown?  Yes.  Okay.  And you said that you had gone up a trail which  was on the right side of Xsi maasxwit lo'op?  Yes.  Is that right?  Correct.  And that there had been traps set on that side.  Yes.  All right.  And the name of Albert Brown was  Wii'goob'l you said?  Yes.  Okay.  Before Wii'goob'l did you have to cross Xsi  maasxwit lo'op to get to the other side?  Correct.  You have to cross.  And do you recall crossing Xsi maasxwit lo'op?  Yes.  Before you crossed the creek whose territory was it  before you crossed?  Well, you see the other creek that runs like this was  Xsa galliixawit.  Yes.  And Xsi maasxwit lo'op runs into Xsa galliixawit.  Okay.  And you say you had to cross the creek, did  you?  Yes.  I had to go across here and then go up on the  right hand side.  You went up on the right hand side? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  207  Yes.  When you crossed the creek -- when you went to the --  said you went up on the right hand side, whose  territory was that?  It's still belongs to Wii'goob'l.  Do you know where the boundary -- where is the  boundary of Wii'goob'l's territory is?  This is the boundary where Xsi maasxwit lo'op runs in  and Xsa galliixawit keep on going.  Okay.  You mentioned that you saw Joe Danes -- you saw  Joe Danes on one of your trips while you were  trapping?  Yes, that's right, because you see the reason I met  him because you see Xsa galliixawit and Xsi maasxwit  lo'op after we trap up there and then go with this  little summit then I went down through the hill.  That's Gyolugyet's territory.  Okay.  There was a confusion about the time.  Mr.  Plant said that Joe Danes died in 1934.  And you saw  him before 1934?  Yes.  On the territory?  Yeah.  Okay.  And so you were out on the territory at that  time?  M'hm.  I believe --  Do you remember the date?  I was really young at the time.  Okay.  Okay.  And you told us that Mathias Wesley --  do you remember this, that you told us about Mathias  Wesley?  Correct.  And you said that he told you about Xsagan Gaksda.  Yes.  And you also said this, that his name was Hlo'oxs; is  that right?  Yeah.  Okay.  Now, was Mathias Wesley in Gyolugyet's house?  Yes, that's right.  And was he related to you?  Yes.  How is he related to you?  Yes.  How is he related to you?  Well, you see that's my -- he's just like Luus, you  see, that's my uncle too.  Now, did anyone else tell you about Xsagan Gaksda 208  1 besides Mathius Wesley?  2 MR. PLANT:  Well, certainly you covered that in chief.  3 A   No.  4 MR. PLANT:  But I won't interfere with the examination.  I do  5 object to the question, but carry on.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  The witness has just answered it.  7 MR. RUSH:  Well, he's objected to it, so what does that make the  8 question and the answer.  9 Q   Mr. Benson, did anyone else besides Mathias Wesley  10 tell you about the places at Xsagan Gaksda?  11 A  My Aunty Mary Anne did because she knows everything  12 there so.  13 Q   When -- I'm sorry.  Had you finished?  14 A   Gyolugyet is head of all that territory that is on the  15 map there.  16 Q   Okay.  When you went -- first went to Xsagan Gaksda  17 who did you go with the very first time?  18 A  Well, I tell you why I didn't know anything.  I was  19 really young.  I didn't know why Phillip -- there is a  20 lot of beaver there, and Phillip knows that, and I  21 didn't know.  I was young.  The reason why he take me  22 up there to get those beaver because I belong to  23 Gyolugyet.  That's why he take me.  So you like this,  24 you know, I'll be right here the one that goes and  25 Gyolugyet can't say anything to me.  2 6 Q   All right.  27 A   To stay -- see, they report it anybody that do that.  28 They grab anything.  They come in and take all the  2 9 furs from me.  30 Q   Did you -- are you saying that the first time you went  31 to Xsagan Gaksda was with Phillip?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Which — is that Phillip Brown?  34 A   Yeah.  Phillip Brown.  35 Q   Okay.  When you were with Phillip did he tell you  36 about any of the names or any of the places?  37 A   No, he didn't say anything because I thought that  38 belongs to them.  39 Q   Yes.  How did he know where to go?  40 A  Well, he's -- he married one of Gyolugyet's  41 granddaughter and been travelling through there, and  42 he knows lots of beaver in there, that's why he take  43 me and I go with him.  44 Q   And how was Phillip Brown related to someone or anyone  45 in the Gyolugyet's house?  Was -- he was related you  46 said.  47 A   Yes. 209  1 Q What was his relationship?  2 A Well, he married Gyolugyet's granddaughter.  3 Q I see.  Okay.  Well, when you first went out there how  4 did you know where to go when you were with Phillip?  5 A Well, he's the one that knows where to go.  6 Q Now, you told us, or you told Mr. Macaulay that you  7 got a fishing permit, I believe, in 1985.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  '86 I believe he said.  9 MR. RUSH: I think there was more than one year you asked him  10 about.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, perhaps.  12 MR. RUSH:  13 Q Maybe we'll start with that.  You told Mr. Macaulay  14 that you got a fishing permit in 1986, and I think you  15 said you got one the year before that?  16 A Yes.  17 Q This is to fish in the river.  Do you remember that?  18 A Yes.  19 Q And you told him that you fished all week long?  2 0 A M'hm.  21 Q Did you fish at times when the river was closed to  22 fishing?  23 A Sometimes I do.  24 Q Okay.  Now, Mr. Macaulay showed you some maps today,  25 and these have been marked as an exhibit, and I'm  26 going to show you these maps, Mr. Benson.  I'm not  27 asking you at the moment anything about what's on the  28 map.  My question is have you ever seen this map  29 before today?  30 A Yes, I do.  31 Q Where did you see it?  32 A Right here on this table.  33 Q Just listen to my question again.  Before -- before  34 you saw this map here on this table had you seen this  35 piece of paper, this map before today before you saw  36 it on this table?  37 A Yes, I did.  38 Q Okay.  Where did you see it before?  39 A They showed me this morning.  40 Q Okay.  All right.  All right.  What about this one,  41 did you ever see this map before?  I'm showing you  42 Exhibit 5 —  4 3 A Five.  44 Q -- For identification.  45 A Correct.  I saw it this morning.  46 Q Okay.  On this map there is a --  4 7 MR. MACAULAY:  Which map?  Five? 210  1 MR. RUSH:  Exhibit number five.  There is a creek called Xsi lax uu ando'o.  Maybe  could pronounce the --  That's Xsi lax uu.  Okay.  Is that how it's pronounced?  Yes.  Is that creek -- does that creek -- is that Xsi lax  uu, is that in Luus' territory?  This one.  Would you  just pronounce that again.  Xsi lax uu ando'o?  Yeah.  Okay.  All right.  You said also to Mr. Macaulay this  morning you asked -- he asked you about whether  you had seen a pole raised by Gyolugyet during your  life time.  No, I didn't.  You haven't seen that?  No.  Okay.  Have you seen other poles by other chiefs  raised during your life time?  Yes.  Okay.  I saw quite a few in Kispiox.  Okay.  You said that Jeff Harris is Luus today?  Correct.  And he's head of the house of Luus, is he?  Yes.  27 MR. RUSH:  If you want to put that thing on pause I'll see if I  28 have any more questions.  29  30      (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  31  32 MR. RUSH:  Mr. Benson, those are all the questions I have for  33 you.  Thank you very much.  34 A   Yes.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  Thank you.  36 MR. RUSH:  That will complete this commission.  37  38 (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED)  39  40 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  41 a transcript of the proceedings  42 herein to the best of my skill and  43 ability.  44  45  46 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  47 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  or nol  t  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A 211  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  9  10

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