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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-09-05] British Columbia. Supreme Court Sep 5, 1989

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 19189  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  VANCOUVER, B.C.  SEPTEMBER 5, 1989  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia, this 5th day of September, 1989.  The matter  of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, My  Lord.  Thank you.  Well, I must say I have missed you all,  and I am so glad to see you all back, and I am looking  forward to what you have to say.  Mr. Goldie.  GOLDIE:  I suppose the first thing I should say, My Lord, is  that I am sorry I can't subscribe to everything you  have just said.  There are one or two housekeeping matters before  Mr. Steventon is called, My Lord.  My friend Mr. Grant  has proposed a change in the amendment to the  Statement of Claim that was discussed before the  adjournment, and I have advised him that I am prepared  to agree to that change, but on certain conditions.  And perhaps my friend might want to indicate the  nature of the change that he proposes, and I can then  indicate to Your Lordship the conditions that I would  submit are appropriate.  Thank you.  Mr. Grant.  Yes.  My Lord, Mr. Goldie gave me a letter  immediately before court today suggesting certain  conditions.  But I had proposed to him -- if you may  recall, this was the terminology and/or predecessors.  In paragraph 56, 56A, 57 --  Just a moment.  I think I have the amendment here.  And I will just use those three paragraphs as  examples.  There are other paragraphs in which the  term is also used.  Just a moment.  56.  56 capital A and 57.  And 56 --  Yes.  I propose that the change -- or the plaintiffs  propose the changes be the Gitksan chiefs, their  ancestors and/or their Gitksan predecessors.  Are you looking at 56A?  I am sorry, My Lord.  56.  It's the immediate page  immediately preceding.  I said 56 and 56A.  I'm sorry.  All right.  Oh, yes.  All right.  At the  very bottom there.  Yes.  Page 12.  The Gitksan chiefs, their ancestors and/or  their Gitksan predecessors.  In 5 -- or 56A, I should  say, it would be the Wet'suwet'en chiefs, their  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT 19190  Proceedings  1 ancestors and/or their Wet'suwet'en predecessors.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MR. GRANT:  And in 57 it would be since time immemorial the  4 plaintiffs, their ancestors and/or their Gitksan or  5 Wet'suwet'en predecessors.  57, of course, is a  6 paragraph that deals with all of the plaintiffs, both  7 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:  Now, as you may recall, this was a response to --  10 you granted the amendment subject to an objection  11 raised by Mr. Goldie to the term predecessors, and  12 this is a response to deal with that.  Now -- and  13 Mr. -- on paragraph 61 -- I'll just list these for  14 Your Lordship.  Paragraph 61 would be the same as 57.  15 So it would be and/or their Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en  16 predecessors.  Paragraph 72 would be again their  17 ancestors and/or their Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en  18 predecessors.  74 would be their ancestors or Gitksan  19 or their -- I'm sorry, their ancestors or their  20 Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en predecessors, and 74A would be  21 their ancestors or their Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en  22 predecessors.  And same with 75, it would be or their  23 Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en predecessors.  So, in other  24 words, paragraph 61, 72, 74, 74A and 75 would be  25 amended in the same manner as paragraph 57.  I'm  26 sorry, My Lord, did I --  27 THE COURT: No, that's all right.  28 MR. GRANT:  Now, this morning Mr. Goldie — I had not received a  29 response from Mr. Macaulay to -- or Ms. Koenigsberg to  30 date, but this morning Mr. Goldie delivered a letter  31 to me, and stating that he was prepared to agree with  32 the amendment, provided certain particulars can be  33 provided, which is:  34  35 "What Houses are represented by plaintiffs whose  36 predecessors as hereditary chiefs were not  37 ancestors of the plaintiffs;  38 And the manner, (i.e., adoption or whatever) by  39 which such hereditary chiefs became  40 predecessors of such plaintiffs."  41  42 Now, I have had no time to consult with Mr. Rush  43 concerning this, and I have had about five minutes to  44 digest his suggestion.  I have certain initial  45 thoughts, but it's probably best left unstated,  46 because I am not prepared to really to respond to his  47 suggestion. 19191  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  Would it be convenient to defer the whole question  of the amendment until you are ready to respond to  that?  MR. GRANT:  Yes, if those are the conditions that he is  suggesting, and those are the conditions under which  he raised it.  Of course, as Your Lordship -- yes, if  that's the way he's proposing it, and then he can  argue why he wishes that, and we can just take a  position at that time.  I think that would be better,  because I can't really reply.  THE COURT:  You may bring the matter up again at any convenient  time.  MR. GRANT:  Thank you, My Lord.  THE COURT:  All right.  MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, I wrote to my friend, Mr. Rush, about the  question of experts' reports and submitting them  before Your Lordship before the witness is called.  I  am now referring to Dr. Greenwood, who will be called,  if my memory serves me correctly, about the 2nd of  October.  And my friend has indicated that he is going  to object to Dr. Greenwood's evidence, and he -- I am  not sure what the nature of his objections are.  He  told me that he takes objection to Dr. Farley's  evidence and the grounds of that, but I am not sure  whether that applies to Dr. Greenwood.  But my point is this:  That if there are  objections to be taken, it would be expeditious if  Your Lordship had had the opportunity of seeing the  report in question first.  In my submission Your  Lordship's rulings have disposed of the blanket  objections which were taken by the defendant to some  of the plaintiffs' reports.  I refer in particular to  Your Lordship's ruling of July the 14th, where it --  Your Lordship said this at page 18:  "Generally speaking therefore  ..."  I am at line 16.  "Generally speaking, therefore I can have regard  to the opinions the historians have expressed  about the facts they think the documents are  describing, and in some cases why they think  such things were happening, and the  consequences of these historical events even  though their evidence will in most cases be  based upon inferences drawn from statements 19192  Proceedings  1 found in the ancient documents.  Impermissible  2 opinions and the conclusions they wish me to  3 reach in connection with the subject matters of  4 their opinion will undoubtedly be interwoven  5 with permissible opinion, and it will be my  6 responsibility to disregard the former while  7 profiting from the latter."  8  9 And then in Your Lordship's memorandum, which was  10 circulated August 15th, 1989, Your Lordship said with  11 respect to the general objections which were taken to  12 the reports of Dr. Mills, Dr. Daly, Mr. George and Mr.  13 Brody, and Your Lordship said in the second paragraph  14 of the first page:  15  16 "For greater certainty counsel should understand  17 that generally speaking I did not propose to  18 rule any of the disputed material or reports  19 inadmissible.  Rather I think these questions  20 must be dealt with as matters of weight at the  21 end of the trial.  I reached this conclusion  22 because I am unable to make any other  23 determination or disposition of these matters."  24  25 Now, as I read that, a blanket objection is not  26 going to be entertained by Your Lordship, but no doubt  27 there will be objections taken to portions of the  28 report as it is dealt with in the evidence.  And as  29 Your Lordship has pointed out, it will be the task  30 that you set yourself to sort out, that which is  31 acceptable and that which is not.  If there are  32 objections to Dr. Greenwood's report, then, as I say,  33 in my submission it would be expeditious and  34 convenient if we knew what those objections were, and  35 if Your Lordship had the opportunity of examining the  36 report beforehand, so that you were not in the  37 position of being referred to a matter without any  38 sense of the context.  39 I have the same submission, really, with respect  40 to Dr. Farley, although my friend has been good enough  41 to indicate in some measure the objection that he  42 takes to Dr. Farley.  Dr. Farley will be called on the  43 18th of September.  The objection, as I understand it,  44 is that my friend takes the position that he appears  45 to be called for the purpose of contradicting Mr.  46 Morrison, and that I was obliged to put to Mr.  47 Morrison on cross-examination, I suppose, the opinions 19193  Proceedings  1 of Dr. Farley.  I am not going to go into that, of  2 course, at this point, My Lord.  I say that that is  3 not an objection to his report in the blanket sense.  4 It is an objection to parts of it.  And while his  5 report is much shorter than that of Dr. Greenwood,  6 again I say it would be helpful and convenient if this  7 too could have -- if this too could have been placed  8 in Your Lordship's hands, and Your Lordship can at  9 least have acquainted yourself with the organization  10 of the material, so that when objections are taken, we  11 can deal with them as quickly as possible.  12 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  13 MR. RUSH:  Well, our position is, My Lord, that these objections  14 should be dealt with when the witness is called, and  15 that you should deal with the objections either in  16 part, for there will be objections to portions, major  17 portions, in particular of Dr. Greenwood's report, and  18 in some cases in whole.  It's not appropriate in the  19 case of Dr. Greenwood or in Dr. Farley, in my  20 submission, to deal with them in this summary fashion  21 at this point, and I don't think it would aid anyone  22 for Your Lordship to consider the report first and  23 then hear the objections as they are raised during the  24 course of the testimony.  25 We will be taking a substantial objection to Dr.  26 Greenwood's report based upon the primary reasons that  27 it substantially constitutes legal argument and is not  28 an opinion at all.  We will also be objecting to the  29 fact that many of the purported opinions advanced by  30 Dr. Greenwood are the types of opinions for which Mr.  31 Goldie himself raised specific objections to Mr.  32 Morrison's evidence, and for which in the course of  33 that evidence Your Lordship was called upon to make  34 rulings in light of the specific objections.  Similar  35 types of opinions are proffered by Dr. Greenwood in  36 the body of his report.  In my submission it's not  37 something that you can deal with as a corpus, you have  38 to deal with it as the objections are raised.  And  39 perhaps in some early judgments the form or the trend  40 of the evidence will become clear, as it did with Mr.  41 Morrison's evidence.  42 I can advise my friend as well that I think it  43 should be obvious to him, in reading Dr. Greenwood's  44 report, that Dr. Greenwood's report is filled with  45 interpretive opinion, mainly legal interpretive  46 opinion of legal documents and statutory instruments,  47 and we will be objecting to the introduction of 19194  Proceedings  1 opinions like that from Dr. Greenwood either in the  2 course of his viva voce evidence, or if my friend  3 attempts to lead the report itself, we will be  4 objecting to those types of opinions being offered by  5 Dr. Greenwood.  In our submission his report as it  6 presently stands is wholly inadmissible.  We will also  7 be making objection to certain of Dr. Greenwood's  8 qualifications to give the opinion that he attempts  9 to.  10 So far as Dr. Farley's report goes, in my  11 submission it is so completely tied into Dr.  12 Greenwood's that the two should be dealt with as they  13 arise, and that Your Lordship is not going to be  14 particularly aided by having read the whole of the  15 document and having been faced with what I say are  16 wholly inadmissible or impermissible -- in concordance  17 with Your Lordship's earlier reasons -- impermissible  18 opinion, when it should be dealt with and specifics --  19 and related to very, very specific and particular  20 passages of the evidence.  21 So I am proposing simply that the matter both in  22 respect of the objections taken to the report and the  23 argument that I intend to make with regard to the  24 appropriateness of leading evidence, which was not put  25 to Mr. Morrison and was not examined upon through Mr.  26 Morrison, I intend to argue that point as well, and I  27 think that would be more appropriately left to the  28 time that these witnesses are called.  2 9    THE COURT:  Thank you.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  Of course I am not asking that the objections be  31 argued now, My Lord.  I am simply saying that in  32 anticipation of the objections it would be helpful if  33 Your Lordship was aware of the organization of the  34 report, of both reports.  And I ask Your Lordship to  35 bear in mind that my friend proposed that his experts'  36 reports be read by Your Lordship prior to the witness  37 appearing, and we objected to that, because we said we  38 are going to take a blanket objection to the reports  39 of some of his witnesses, and we took those blanket  40 objections, and they were overruled.  And I have read  41 to Your Lordship what I consider to be the relevant  42 passage in Your Lordship's judgment of July the 14th,  43 when you said yes, that there is impermissible  44 material in these reports, but that will be a task of  45 counsel and the court at the end of the day to sort  4 6 out.  47 Now, if my friend is -- so I took from that that 19195  Ruling  1 blanket objections are not to be entertained.  2 Specific objections are.  And it is in order to deal  3 with specific objections expeditiously that I am  4 proposing that Your Lordship be sufficiently aware of  5 the organization and the trend, to use my friend's  6 word of the -- of these reports, prior to the witness  7 stepping in the box.  But that -- I am proposing that  8 as a matter of saving time, and if Your Lordship is  9 not disposed to -- if Your Lordship is disposed to  10 agree with my friend, then I don't propose to push it  11 any further.  12 THE COURT:  I have felt throughout that it might have been  13 better to have read the reports before I wrestled with  14 the questions of admissibility, but that wasn't to be,  15 and I think that I ought to follow the same course now  16 as was followed during the plaintiffs' case, which is  17 when an objection is taken, I will not ask for a view  18 of the report before the witness is tendered.  I think  19 there is risk in this course of cowardice on the part  20 of the trial judge in ruling something out that may  21 require detailed and careful consideration, which is  22 balanced against the need to keep the trial moving,  23 and that may be the result in the future.  I am not  24 sure what I would have ruled in the case of various of  25 the plaintiffs' experts if I had had them before, and  26 I had spent the time with them that they deserved.  27 But counsel, with their vast experience, are alive to  28 those kinds of considerations, and if it is counsels'  29 wish that I not see the reports before the witness is  30 tendered, then I will follow that course.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  I only remind Your Lordship that because my friend  32 has referred to Mr. Morrison -- we had no report of  33 Mr. Morrison in his evidence viva voce.  34 My Lord, the final point before Mr. Steventon is  35 called is the question of custodial witnesses of the  36 alienation series of exhibits.  Your Lordship may  37 recall that in 1987, June the 12th, when this subject  38 was being discussed -- and I am referring at volume  39 18, page 1214 to 1215, and that was after a submission  40 that was made by my friend and by myself with respect  41 to the marking of the alienation series of maps and  42 supporting documentation.  Your Lordship says:  43  44 "I am satisfied that for the limited purpose  45 mentioned by Mr. Goldie, that is the fact of an  46 active alienation whether carried out or not,  47 the documents included in the alienation map 19196  Proceedings  1 project and the maps themselves should indeed  2 must be admitted, if at all, into evidence  3 without each document and map being proved  4 conventionally.  Such an endeavour in a case  5 such as this would not be a sensible or useful  6 endeavour.  These matters, documents and maps  7 should, in my view, be proven by affidavit  8 pursuant to Rule 40(41) and Rule 40(42).  But I  9 am impressed by the force of Mr. Rush's  10 objection to the verification process employed  11 up to this point for these documents and maps,  12 and I think the plaintiffs are entitled to have  13 affidavits from the various senior custodians  14 referred to in the material I have.  And the  15 plaintiffs are entitled, if they wish, to  16 cross-examine those deponents.  I see no  17 particular reason why that must be done in  18 Court at trial time."  19  20 Now, pursuant to that ruling, My Lord, some five  21 affidavits were filed, and in that summer my friend  22 cross-examined on one of them.  The matter was again  23 brought up -- well, its been brought up several times,  24 but it was again brought up before the adjournment,  25 and Your Lordship directed that the remaining  26 custodial affidavits be filed by July 31st, and that  27 some attempt be made to cross-examine on those during  28 the vacation.  By July 31st some seven of those  29 affidavits were filed.  The remaining five were filed  30 later on in the month of August.  The first, I think,  31 on the 8th, and then one later on than that.  Those  32 were filed after the 31st because the deponents were  33 not available by -- until the later date.  34 There have been four -- the four of the earlier  35 affidavits, the 1987, were examined during the  36 vacation, and that leaves ten deponents to be  37 examined.  And as I said before the adjournment, I  38 proposed that so many of those as remained to be  39 examined would be called in the week of the 11th of  40 September.  41 There has been some correspondence between my  42 friends and myself and lately or latterly Mr. Plant  43 and my friends.  I had requested under one of the  44 newer rules that I be given 14 days notice of the  45 deponents that my friends wished to examine.  It was  46 an oversight on my part to rely upon that rule,  47 because Your Lordship had directed that any of the 19197  Proceedings  1 deponents could be cross-examined as my friends  2 wished.  3 With that in mind, we have tentatively scheduled  4 an order of witnesses in the week of the 11th of  5 September that will ensure, if everything goes well,  6 that all of the remaining deponents will be filed --  7 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, filed or questioned?  8 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry, examined.  The affidavits are, of  9 course, in my friends' hands now.  10 MR. GRANT:  Russell isn't.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, he will be there.  My friend suggested that  12 one of the people has not been scheduled, but if his  13 name is not on the list, it will be.  14 MR. GRANT:  We don't have one of the affidavits, My Lord.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Donald W. Russell.  16 MR. GRANT:  We do not have one of his affidavits.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I will check into that, My Lord.  18 THE COURT:  What are you suggesting, Mr. Goldie, that they be  19 examined in court?  20 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  We have had the greatest difficulty in  21 examining out of court.  It just doesn't seem to work.  22 And we have one witness that we have agreed upon now  23 to be examined out of court, together with the  24 completion of the plaintiffs' witness Mr. Turner.  So  25 there will be two witnesses examined out of court.  26 But these ones, we propose tendering them for  27 cross-examination, and I hope that we'll move along.  28 My Lord, I think that's all I have to report on.  29 The parties had agreed amongst themselves that on the  30 15th of September, which is a Friday, would be  31 reserved for the matters affecting the completion of  32 the plaintiffs' case, and -- oh, I said the parties  33 agreed.  I am sorry, Ms. Sigurdson reminds me that we  34 propose that the 15th be reserved for the completion  35 of the plaintiffs' case, and I am hopeful that that  36 can be done.  37 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, any response to that, Mr. Grant or  38 Mr. Macaulay?  39 MR. MACAULAY:  I have no submission to make.  I will be ready on  40 September 15th, if that's agreeable to the other  41 parties.  42 THE COURT:  Thank you.  43 MR. GRANT:  Yes, I have a number of responses and a number of  44 matters.  There has been correspondence.  Firstly, My  45 Lord, the -- I am instructed that we have completed  46 the cross-examinations of all of the old affidavits.  47 These remaining ten are new. 1919?  Proceedings  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. GRANT:  Also we were requested -- as Mr. Goldie corrected  3 what had been implied by Mr. Plant's letter -- that of  4 course these were all ordered, but in the earlier  5 correspondence last Friday Mr. Plant requested to know  6 which ones of these we wished to proceed with.  At  7 this time we can -- and we have reviewed them.  At  8 this time we can advise that we do not require Mr.  9 Robert May, nor Mr. Goldberg, Harry Goldberg.  I also  10 wish to point out that we do not have the affidavit of  11 Donald Russell, which I believe relates to grazing  12 permits.  So we, of course, need that to prepare.  13 Now, it may be -- I am -- I want to advise Your  14 Lordship of what -- there is some ambiguity about  15 scheduling in the next two weeks before Mr. Farley,  16 and I wanted to have that clear.  I have been advised  17 by Mr. Mackenzie that these next two witnesses will  18 take on direct one and-a-half days each.  So assuming  19 they take one day on cross, that -- that goes up to  20 and includes the end of Monday.  21 In July, before the adjournment, we were advised  22 that there was going to be a witness relating to  23 fishing licences tendered by the Province next week,  24 and on September 1st were advised that they will  25 tender -- and confirmed by Mr. Goldie today -- that  26 next week these ten witnesses to be cross-examined  27 will be tendered.  Now, on the ballpark that these  28 next two witnesses are going to take 'til the end of  2 9 Monday, and we have four days, I must say we did five  30 cross-examinations in two days.  But we would  31 propose -- I would like clarification from the  32 Province as to who this fishing licence witness is and  33 when, and if he is proceeding next week in advance of  34 these.  If that's changed, we would like to know that  35 now.  36 Also, regarding these witnesses, there may be a  37 way -- if the defendants -- the provincial defendant  38 is -- views that it's going to tender them in court to  39 be cross-examined, we would suggest a variation on  40 their order, which may shorten the subsequent  41 witnesses.  And for that reason we would suggest that  42 one of the first of these witnesses would be Mr.  43 Harding, R.G. Harding, because depending on what Mr.  44 Harding knows, we may not be required -- or may not  45 require to cross-examine a number of the others.  So  46 if he is called ahead, then we will know that.  So  47 that is our -- that, I suggest, assist my friends, 19199  Proceedings  1 because now they know --  2 THE COURT:  There are two points there, and perhaps we can ask  3 Mr. Goldie, before we forget what they are.  Are you  4 going to be calling this witness on fishing permits?  5 MR. GOLDIE:  My present understanding is that he is a witness  6 that will be called by Canada, and I don't propose  7 calling him.  8 THE COURT:  All right.  What about whether you can call Mr.  9 Harding first?  10 MR. GOLDIE:  I don't know about that.  We are dealing with  11 senior to middle civil servants, and some of them are  12 not always available.  We had proposed an order which  13 reflected availability.  I will ascertain whether Mr.  14 Harding can be called first.  15 THE COURT:  If there is any chance it will save time in court,  16 I --  17 MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, yes.  18 THE COURT:  I would hope that every effort would be made to  19 comply with that alternative.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  I have as strong a desire to achieve that end as  21 you do, My Lord.  22 THE COURT:  There is a subpoena process, I understand, that  23 might assist.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  There is a subpoena process, but it is -- there was  25 at least one civil servant who was vacationing outside  26 the province.  27 THE COURT:  That may be a problem.  All right.  Thank you.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  My friend said that they were advised on September  29 the 1st something about this.  I said before we  30 adjourned in July, My Lord, that the week of the 11th  31 of September would be -- we would use that to complete  32 the cross-examination of these affidavits.  33 THE COURT:  All right.  Plus the other matters.  34 MR. GRANT:  Plus the other matters.  And at that time — we had  35 no idea until very recently, until these were  36 delivered to us in -- after the 8th of August, that we  37 were not dealing with between one and five, but were  38 dealing with ten.  So to assist my friend --  39 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry, I delivered seven on July the 31st.  40 MR. GRANT:  To assist my friend, we would proceed to Mr.  41 Halladay and Mr. Bedford.  We would be requiring them  42 in any event.  So that if my friend could make -- Mr.  43 Bedford is already scheduled as the first one, and if  44 he can proceed with Mr. Bedford, Halladay and Harding,  45 that may make it easier for him to reallocate some  46 scheduling.  We would need those in any event.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  That the order, Bedford, Halladay, Harding — 19200  Proceedings  1 MR. GRANT:  We request Harding first.  Harding would be required  2 first, and then Bedford and then Halladay.  3 Now, My Lord, on this general matter -- so it is  4 my understanding now that we will be proceeding after  5 these two witnesses with these cross-examinations.  6 That's what my friend is indicating, and we will go  7 directly to them.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:  Now, there was one other matter.  My friend  10 indicated that the issues outstanding in the  11 plaintiffs' case would be dealt with on the 15th, and  12 that was a proposal.  We do not object to dealing with  13 a number of those issues on the 15th, however, there  14 is one that I have been in correspondence with my  15 friends, and I would like that to be dealt with this  16 week or next week.  And it depends -- or no later than  17 Monday of next week.  It depends on my friends'  18 position.  And that's the plaintiffs' exhibits for  19 identification.  Of course if my friends don't take  20 objection to those ones -- we have provided them with  21 a list last week, and they need time to consider it.  22 I am not suggesting, of course, to deal with it this  23 morning, but the 15th is not a good time to proceed  24 with that.  And the objective of trying to get  25 everything dealt with by the 15th, as my friends have  26 suggested and agree with, it would be preferable if my  27 friends could consider putting their mind to it, and  28 if they can't deal with it by Monday of next week,  29 that we will put it off to maybe the beginning of the  30 fall.  That's the only issue that we don't wish to  31 deal with -- will not be able to deal with on that  32 day.  33 And the one other matter, My Lord.  I had proposed  34 to my friend that the cross-examination of Mr.  35 Hobenshield and the cross-examination of Mr. Turner or  36 his alternate would occur -- Mr. Turner was the last  37 territorial witness -- would occur on the week of  38 October 23rd out of court.  That's an out of court  39 week.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  41 MR. GRANT:  And I just wonder if my friend is able to respond to  42 that.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Those were the two that I was referring to, My  44 Lord.  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 MR. GRANT:  And that's agreeable, that time?  47 MR. GOLDIE:  We have so advised you. 19201  Proceedings  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Ready to proceed with the witness,  2 Mr. Goldie?  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Mr. Willms is going to lead Mr. Steventon.  4 THE COURT:  I have another matter that I have to attend to, and  5 I think the reporters want to change places.  6  7     (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A BRIEF RECESS)  8  9 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  10 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  11 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  12 SKILL AND ABILITY.  13  14    15 LORI OXLEY  16 OFFICIAL REPORTER  17 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 19202  Proceedings  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Plant.  I'm sorry, Mr. Willms.  I saw Mr. Plant  5 earlier this morning.  I was surprised that he came  6 back.  7 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, before I start with the evidence of Mr.  8 Steventon, it may be of assistance if I outline two  9 things.  The evidence this week will relate to the  10 trapline map Exhibit 24A, the supporting document  11 Exhibit 24B, and will also relate to the trapline  12 files that were marked during or that were -- the  13 number that was reserved during the cross-examination  14 of Mr. Brody.  There is a list that is called Exhibit  15 995-41 and then the number 995-41A was reserved for  16 the volume, some 500 odd tabs for -- during the  17 cross-examination of Mr. Brody for the traplines.  So  18 that is what the evidence will relate to this week.  19 There will be two witnesses, my lord, a Mr. Doug  20 Steventon and a Mr. Rick Marshall.  21 The first document, my lord, and I have a copy of  22 Exhibit 24B for your lordship.  I believe 24B has only  23 been marked for identification.  24A has been marked  24 as an exhibit, I think, for a limited purpose.  24B is  25 just for identification.  We've been searching, my  26 lord, for the original of Dr. Bandy's affidavit.  We  27 can't find it because I did not to mark the original  28 of Dr. Bandy's affidavit as an exhibit.  But what I  29 suggest that we do first off is mark the copy.  And  30 when we find the original, perhaps we could then  31 either reserve the number, or if we do find the  32 original mark it if it's necessary.  But could Dr.  33 Bandy's affidavit be the next exhibit?  34 THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit 1114.  35  36 (EXHIBIT 1114:  Affidavit of Percy J. Bandy Sworn July  37 13, 1987)  38  39 MR. WILLMS:  This is the affidavit of Percy J. Bandy which is  40 sworn the 13th day of July, 1987 and was filed in the  41 Vancouver Registry July 14, 1987.  And because Mr.  42 Bandy's or Dr. Bandy's evidence relates to the  43 evidence of Mr. Steventon and Mr. Marshall, I think I  44 will just go through the affidavit, my lord, if I may  45 so that you can see where the evidence of Mr.  46 Steventon and Mr. Marshall fits in.  47 THE COURT:  Before you do that, may I hand to counsel a letter 19203  Proceedings  1 and attachment that I -- no, I'm sorry, just a letter  2 that I received from Mr. Walter Wilson, who I think --  3 I am sure is a plaintiff, and Mr. Bruce Johnson, who I  4 think is a plaintiff, that I received on July 31st.  I  5 do not propose to make any reply, and with respect to  6 which I suggest that it be placed in the court file.  7 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  My lord, before my friend proceeds -- I will  8 look at it and pass it on to other counsel.  Before my  9 friend proceeds, I want to be sure of a couple of  10 points.  Firstly, that he intends to tender the  11 cross-examination of Mr. Bandy at the same time, that  12 is it should be tendered now as well.  That I think  13 would be appropriate.  Mr. Bandy was cross-examined on  14 his affidavit.  I think if my friend also intends to  15 read from his affidavit I think it was important that,  16 as I say, the cross-examination be read.  I don't know  17 exactly why my friend wants to read it.  If it is an  18 exhibit it is an exhibit.  But the cross-examination,  19 of course, is very important.  Mr. Bandy's  20 cross-examination certainly, I submit, makes the  21 evidence in the affidavit in substantial part  22 inadmissible and demonstrates that it is inadmissible  23 evidence.  I would ask that that be marked as the same  24 exhibit.  25 There are other matters that I wanted to raise  26 before my friend calls Mr. Steventon to the stand  27 relating to Mr. Steventon, and that is with respect to  28 the production of documents and correspondence last  29 week that I would like a ruling on so that if my  30 friend is required to produce them then we will have  31 them before Mr. Steventon's cross-examination is  32 completed.  I can deal with that now, or if my friend  33 wishes to open further about Mr. Steventon that's  34 fine.  But I do want that cross-examination marked as  35 an exhibit with the affidavit.  36 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, as I understand it the exhibits --  37 the affidavits are marked as exhibits, and then the  38 cross-examination becomes dash A with the exhibits  39 being Al through whatever.  It is my friend's  40 cross-examination.  Of course it can be marked.  I  41 didn't bring it because I only wanted to refer to a  42 number of items in Dr. Bandy's affidavit so that your  43 lordship when you hear from Dr. -- Mr. Steventon and  44 Mr. Marshall about Dr. Bandy and what was sent to Dr.  45 Bandy your lordship will have an appreciation of the  46 process.  And that's all that I wanted to draw this to  47 your lordship's attention at this time for. 19204  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE COURT  MR.  THE  COURT:  Well —  WILLMS:  But I have no difficulty of getting a copy of the  cross-examination and marking it as well.  I don't  have it with me right now.  Well, the transcript of the cross-examination then  will be 1114A.  It can be produced whenever it is  convenient.  WILLMS:  And I suggest any exhibits, if there are any -- I  don't know if there are.  But if there are, they can  be Al through whatever.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  (EXHIBIT 1114A:  Bandy)  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Cross-examination Transcript of Dr.  Now, what about this question, the second question  that Mr. —  Well, maybe I will deal with it now.  My lord, for  the first time the 500 tabs that my friend refers to  which he intends to introduce through Mr. Steventon  and Mr. Marshall were first tendered in the evidence  of Mr. Brody.  In chief or in cross-examination?  In cross-examination.  Yes.  And they are exhibits for identification.  And my  friends have -- there has been exstensive  correspondence relating to those documents, including  a notice to admit and a refusal because many of them  are illegible and there are other problems as well.  However, my friends on August 29th, Mr. McKenzie wrote  to us, counsel for the plaintiffs, for the first time  stating:  'We have asked that the 'general miscellaneous  correspondence files' relating to traplines for  the years 1983 to 1987 from the Smithers office  be sent to our offices for your possible review.  We have not previously considered the contents of  these files to be relevant.  You may wish,  however, to review some of the documents.  The  three letters, copies of which we enclose with a  letter of August 28th which they tend to  introduce through Mr. Steventon and Marshall were  drawn from these 'general miscellaneous  correspondence files'." 19205  Proceedings  1  2 Now, my lord, there is two problems here.  Number one  3 is we requested production of these.  On Friday, late  4 on Friday, they were delivered to Mr. Rush's office  5 and we have had a chance to review copies of them  6 yesterday.  But, firstly, with the general  7 miscellaneous -- the general miscellaneous  8 correspondence files they have arbitrarily started in  9 1983 and proceeded to 1987.  On a review of these  10 files, it appears that many of the documents in them  11 may be relevant and we ask for production of those  12 previous to 1983.  The documents are full of  13 correspondence from Steventon and Marshall.  14 Last week, as well, there were certificates of  15 Steventon and Marshall disclosed to us for the first  16 time that were signed in June of this year.  I find it  17 very difficult to believe that my friends were not  18 aware of these files, but in any event I don't want  19 any delay.  I would like a direction that they produce  20 them.  Now, when they produced them they said this:  21  22 "We are producing them subject to the removal of  23 privileged and irrelevant documents."  24  25 And I corresponded back at the end of last week.  I  26 said:  27  28 "It is impossible for me to comprehend how there  29 can be any documents in those files which you can  30 unilaterally determine are irrelevant in view of  31 the fact that you have disclosed documents  32 relating to all of traplines and the history of  33 the traplines over a long period of time."  34  35 And you may recall, my lord, that last December you  36 made a ruling that dealings with traplines post 1984  37 may be relevant.  This was with respect to Mr. Morris  38 and the alleged sale or transfer of a trapline in 1986  39 or 1987.  In other words, the defendant -- the  40 provincial defendants have used documents from their  41 Fish and Wildlife files to cross-examine and have  42 selectively enclosed those.  43 Now, I am advised -- I asked my friend where the  44 irrelevance is, and he says documents relating to  45 traplines outside the claims area.  I understand that  46 makes sense.  It is not relevant.  But also he --  47 except to the extent that it relates to the policy of 19206  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. WILLMS  the registration of the traplines.  And, secondly, he  says documents after 1986 because after 1986 was when  Exhibit 24A was produced.  Well, I say that that may  be the case for them, but it what's good for the goose  is good for the gander, and that we should be entitled  to see those post 1986 documents.  My friend has also informed me that there are four  documents that are privileged.  I don't know what they  are.  I have requested a list, and he says he will  give me a list first thing tomorrow morning.  And I  would like him to bring those documents -- I'm sorry,  my friend corrects to say that there may not be four,  but there is not too many.  He says he will provide me  the list tomorrow.  I would ask that he have the  documents available tomorrow morning and be prepared  to -- and the reasons for privilege so at that point  then if there is any of them that we say -- if we  challenge that you would have an opportunity to  examine them and rule on them because I don't know  how -- once again, these are files that are not from  the office of legal counsel, but from the  miscellaneous correspondence.  In any event, I have  asked for these, my lord.  We didn't have -- there was  no disclosure of these documents.  We have tried to  deal with it expeditiously.  I once again say I don't know why my friend -- the  first one is '83, '84.  The second one is '85 and  there is some for '86 and post '86, not withstanding  my friend's position on relevance.  But I don't know  why my friend starts at 1983, except that they have  been forced to disclose them as a result of three  letters that they want to tender to these witnesses.  But I would ask for the production of the earlier  files relating to this.  Going back how long or how far?  Well, I think that it will be apparent that these  files -- the earliest correspondence, of course, is  1926.  But many of those files are probably neither in  the Smithers or Victoria -- are in the archives, the  1936.  So I am saying those documents that are  post-archival, if I may say that, the correspondence  files that are post-archival to the ones we require  production of.  All right.  Mr. Willms.  What do you say about  producing these earlier files?  :  Well, my lord, first of all, and I just asked my  colleagues whether there were earlier files because it 19207  Proceedings  1 is my understanding right now, and I could be wrong,  2 but this correspondence file relating to traplines  3 started in 1983 and that's why there is nothing before  4 1983.  If there is another miscellaneous file about  5 traplines before 1983 maybe we should see one before  6 we argue whether it should be produced.  7 THE COURT:  What about post?  8 MR. WILLMS:  The reason for 1986 as my friend suggested is the  9 production of Exhibit 24A.  Because you may remember  10 that the plaintiffs' claim is for unalienated land,  11 and an attempt was made in the alienation project to  12 as close as possible decide what was alienated and  13 what was unalienated.  And the closest -- for reasons  14 that will become clearer during the evidence of Mr.  15 Steventon, the closest date for the traplines was  16 January 1986.  And if it hadn't been that date, my  17 lord, had been an earlier date, then we would have  18 said whatever follows is irrelevant as well.  My  19 friends have said that if something is alienated after  20 1984 then it is alienated subject to this lawsuit.  21 So we have attempted as best we could to determine  22 what was alienated and what wasn't alienated and map  23 it as of the date of the writ.  So after January of  24 1986, in my submission no one has put in issue  25 alienations whether new traplines were created,  26 whether there were changes of the owner of the  27 trapline after '86, that hasn't been put in issue by  28 any party so it is irrelevant.  And up to January 1986  29 is relevant because it goes to the creation of the  30 information which formed the basis for Exhibit 24A.  31 And that is why the general miscellaneous  32 correspondence files stops at that point.  And a lot  33 of it, my lord, does relate to -- I shouldn't say a  34 lot of it, but some of it may relate to requests for  35 information related directly to this lawsuit which  36 would be privileged.  Some of it relates to other  37 matters which have absolutely nothing to do with any  38 issue --  39 THE COURT:  Well, it wouldn't be privy just because it relates  40 to a lawsuit.  41 MR. WILLMS:  I am stopping privilege and moving to relevance, my  42 lord.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  44 MR. WILLMS:  That after October 1984, as I understand it,  45 alienations after that point after October 1984 are  46 not part of the plaintiffs' case.  I mean they are  47 fixing the date of alienation at the date of their 1920?  Proceedings  1 writ.  We just tried to get as close as we could with  2 each of these maps.  And then at the date of the  3 map --  4 THE COURT:  But isn't there — I will put it as a possibility  5 that in the 1987 file, for example, there is some  6 correspondence that relates to something that happened  7 in '85 or '83 or some earlier time?  8 MR. WILLMS:  There may be.  I don't know whether there is  9 correspondence post January 1986.  Certainly if I can  10 put it this way, my lord, correspondence post January  11 86 did not find its way in any way, shape or form onto  12 that map.  13 THE COURT:  Well, is the cautious and safe position not to be to  14 disclose the subsequent files and just in the course  15 of wisdom and prudence and caution for the purpose of  16 ensuring that something important isn't overlooked?  I  17 don't know how much trouble I am causing people with  18 these offhand rulings, but I suspect quite a bit.  But  19 can we really worry about that if you're producing a  20 file for -- pre-'83 files for a period of '83, '86 it  21 seems to me that it is arbitrary to cut it off.  22 Although I understand your reason for it, it seems to  23 me that the safe course is to let your friends see the  24 subsequent files, screened of course with respect to  25 relevance.  26 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, I can appreciate your lordship's  27 concern for moving this along.  Except to this, I  28 don't know why my friend says that these -- after  29 January '86 what issues in the pleadings these relate  30 to.  I mean what --  31 THE COURT:  Well, I am not sure that is the test though, is it?  32 I mean we had better look at this from the point of  33 view of what if there is something in this that  34 relates to something earlier.  In 1983 you told me  35 that this is my trapline.  I now look at my documents  36 and I see that it isn't and would you please correct  37 it.  That may be in 1987, but it relates to 1983.  38 MR. WILLMS:  And I appreciate your lordship's points that that  39 may relate to pre-1986, save and except that it won't  40 have found it's way onto that map because it wasn't  41 there.  42 THE COURT:  Oh, I understand that.  It may be that your friend  43 has independent evidence or something.  With all  44 apologies to whoever has to do the physical paper  45 handling and my regrets in that behalf, I think these  46 files should be produced.  47 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  Is that up to the present time, my 12 THE COURT  13 MR. GRANT  14 THE COURT  19209  Proceedings  1 lord?  It is an ongoing file.  2 THE COURT:  You will have trouble producing files for things you  3 have in the future, won't you?  4 MR. GRANT:  We won't go beyond September or whatever date they  5 are produced.  6 MR. WILLMS:  Well, I am certain there may be something that  7 happened yesterday that will relate directly to an  8 issue pleaded by my friends.  9 THE COURT:  Well, I think it should be up to date.  10 MR. GRANT:  And that would apply if there are earlier files  11 pre-'83.  If there are --  Yes.  If there are equivalent files for pre-'83 they  15 should be produced.  16 MR. GRANT:  I believe there is, but I may be incorrect.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  18 MR. WILLMS:  Related to traplines.  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  Now, my lord, we were — or I was  21 referring to Dr. Bandy's affidavit, Exhibit 1104.  22 THE COURT:  Is it 1104?  23 MR. WILLMS:  1114.  24 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  25 MR. WILLMS:  I crossed that out.  The portions that I want to  26 refer your lordship to because it will tie into the  27 evidence of Mr. Steventon is the paragraph 2 where Dr.  28 Bandy deposes that he supervised the preparation of  29 the composit trapline map and that the original  30 composit trapline map is comprised of true copies of  31 the original trapline maps reduced and taped together  32 as described in his statement of procedures.  I will  33 get to that in a moment, but the map that Mr. -- that  34 Dr. Bandy is referring to in that paragraph is Exhibit  35 24A as marked at trial.  36 You can actually see, my lord, the rectangular  37 squares where the smaller maps have been taped  38 together.  You can see that there are about eight  39 rectangular squares.  That is what Dr. Bandy is  40 referring to.  And then for -- down to paragraph 5 of  41 Dr. Bandy's affidavit he says he also prepared a  42 statement of procedures dated January 5, 1987 which  43 appears under Tab A of a booklet entitled "Map 2 -  44 Registered Traplines - Supporting Documentation".  45 That is Exhibit 24B and describes at Tab A, my lord,  46 the method not only of preparing the trapline map but  47 a number of other maps, but it describes the mechanics 19210  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 of how the map was prepared.  2 Then finally in paragraph 9 of Dr. Bandy's  3 affidavit he refers to -- and this is at the very  4 beginning of Exhibit 24B.  There is on the second page  5 a certificate of a Mr. Robert James Walker and Dr.  6 Bandy deposes that the statements made in the  7 certificate are true and that the records kept therein  8 are ordinary records made in the usual and ordinary  9 course of the Ministry's business.  10 Now, there will be more evidence that will be led  11 in that respect, my lord.  I recognize my friend will  12 want to direct your lordship at some point to the  13 cross-examination of Dr. Bandy's affidavit.  But just  14 in terms of tying Dr. Bandy's affidavit to the  15 exhibits which we will be tendering as exhibits  16 proper, for all purposes it is 24A, 24B, the beginning  17 and Tab A that are directly referred to by Dr. Bandy.  18 So I would like now to call a Mr. Steventon.  19 THE REGISTRAR:  Will you stand, please, sir, and take the Bible  20 in your right hand.  21  22 James Douglas Steventon,  23 called on behalf of the  24 Provincial Defendant, having  25 been duly sworn, testifies as  26 follows:  27  28 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your full name and spell your  29 last name, please, sir?  30 THE WITNESS:  James Douglas Steventon, S-T-E-V-E-N-T-O-N.  31 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, sir, please be seated.  32  33 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. WILLMS:  34 Q   Mr. Steventon, you are presently a wildlife biologist  35 in the Smithers region; is that correct?  36 A   That's correct.  The Skeena region, based in Smithers.  37 Q   The Skeena region based in Smithers.  You were born on  38 April 1st, 1955 in Ontario.  Perhaps you could just  39 outline where you received your university and  40 postgraduate education.  41 A   I completed a Bachelor of Science in forestry from the  42 University of New Brunswick in 1977.  Then completed a  43 Master of Science in wildlife management at the  44 University of Maine in 1979.  45 Q   Now, after 1979 what employment did you have?  46 A   I worked for approximately two years as a wildlife  47 consultant in Maine for the Maine Co-operative 19211  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Wildlife Research Unit.  Then in April -- at the end  2 of April or in mid-April of 1981 I then went to the  3 Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources.  4 Q   While you were in Maine, can you explain what you were  5 doing at that time?  6 A   I was working on a research project looking at the  7 interrelationships of various predatory animals,  8 specifically fox, coyote, bobcat and the impact of a  9 proposed hydro-electric development on those species  10 in northern Maine.  11 Q   And then you mentioned that in April of 1981 you went  12 to work for the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources.  13 Can you explain what you were doing there?  14 A   I was working on a project testing the effectiveness  15 of newly developed humane trapping devices.  16 Q   Now, after October of 19 -- you were there until  17 October 1981?  18 A   That's correct.  19 Q   And after that position what did you then do?  20 A   Okay.  I was then hired by the B.C. Ministry of  21 Environment in Fort St. John to work as a habitat  22 biologist on the -- specific to the Alaska highway  23 pipeline project proposal.  My main duties were to  24 review various impact statements produced by the  25 pipeline company as to their potential -- as to the  26 potential impact on fishery and wildlife resources  27 along the pipeline core route.  28 Q   And you were employed by the B.C. Ministry of the  2 9 Environment at the time?  30 A   That's right.  Starting in December of '81.  31 Q   And that job took you to December 1982 and what  32 happened then?  33 A  At that time the pipeline project was suspended, so I  34 was re-appointed to a vacant position in Fort St. John  35 as a habitat technician until fall of 1984.  36 Q   Now, while you were a habitat technician in Fort St.  37 John between December of 1982 and the fall of 1984,  38 what were your duties?  39 A  Approximately half my time was working on reviewing  40 land use referrals on Crown lands which is logging  41 developments, land applications, mining developments  42 for impacts on fisheries or wildlife resources.  The  43 other half of my time was assisting the regional  44 wildlife biologist on general wildlife management  45 matters included a wide variety of things from doing  46 animal surveys of moose, elk, and the like.  I also at  47 that time started working with the registered 19212  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 traplines in the Fort St. John area.  2 Q   Now, was the Fort St. John area in a certain or  3 specific region of the province while you were there  4 within the Ministry?  5 A  At that time it was the Peace sub-region of the  6 Omenica-Peace region.  7 Q   Now, you mentioned the -- working on the trapline  8 system.  Can you just explain what it was that you did  9 in respect of traplines generally while you were in  10 Fort St. John?  11 A   Okay.  At that time we began the process of  12 re-drafting trapline boundaries onto new base maps.  13 We also began the introduction of the assigned  14 trapline number system at that time.  I was also  15 involved in just the day-to day administration of  16 trapline such as registrations, transfers, that sort  17 of thing.  18 Q   Now, the assigned trapper number and the matching, to  19 your understanding was that a province-wide project?  20 A   That was a province-wide project, yes.  21 Q   Now, you say you were in Fort St. John until October  22 1984.  What happened in October of 1984?  23 A   In October of 1984 I won a competition for a position  24 in Smithers.  I moved to the Smithers office in  25 October of 1984.  26 Q   Your position was?  27 A   In Smithers as a wildlife biologist.  28 Q   And that's the position that you still have today?  29 A   That's correct.  Although for approximately eight  30 months I was acting wildlife management section head  31 from September of '87 until April of '88.  32 Q   Now, when you came to Smithers can you just describe  33 regions within the Ministry for wildlife management?  34 A  When I arrived in Smithers?  35 Q   Yes.  36 A   It would have been in the fall of 1984.  That previous  37 April, April of 1984, the Omenica-Peace region,  38 essentially the Prince George and Peace River country,  39 was amalgamated with the Skeena region.  So in 1984  40 they were both amalgamated to one large region known  41 as the northern region.  Skeena remained a sub-region  42 of that region.  43 Q   Was Smithers the headquarters to the Skeena  44 sub-region?  45 A   Smithers was the headquarters for the Skeena  46 sub-region.  47 Q   Can you just describe generally the area of the Skeena 19213  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 sub-region, north to south, east to west?  2 A   The southern boundary takes in the north end of  3 Tweedsmuir Park right up to the Yukon border.  East to  4 west it goes from the coast including the Queen  5 Charlotte Islands over the height of land just prior  6 to going into the rocky mountain trench to the east.  7 Essentially the northwest quarter of the province.  8 Q   And, in fact, with reference you've seen Exhibit 24A  9 before?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And you recognize the outline.  Most of the Skeena,  12 what was the sub-region and I understand now is called  13 the Skeena region is -- most of the land claims area  14 is in that region; is that correct?  15 A   Just about all of it except for a small area in the  16 Thutade Lake area and around the Bear Lake area which  17 would be within the Omenica sub-region of the northern  18 region.  19 Q   Now, it was a sub-region when you started work in  20 1984.  Has there been a change since that time?  21 A   Okay.  This past April, April '89 it was again  22 re-established as an independent region, the Skeena  23 region.  24 Q   Have the boundaries changed at all?  25 A   The boundaries did not change.  So what was formally  26 the Skeena sub-region of northern region is now an  27 independant region called Skeena region.  But the  28 boundaries did not change.  29 Q   And perhaps with reference to the Exhibit 24A, are  30 there numbers that are used or that you are aware of  31 to describe traplines in the Skeena region?  32 A   Yes.  There were numbers as displayed on the map for  33 each trapline as identified by an eight digit number  34 referred to as the assigned trapper number.  35 Q   Yes.  36 A  And all the traplines within Skeena, for example, are  37 prefaced by 06 indicating Skeena region.  38 Q   And you mentioned the area near Thutade Lake being in  39 the Omenica region.  Is that a different number, a  40 different prefix?  41 A   Yes.  All the traplines within the Omenica-Peace  42 region, what was formerly the Omenica region, now the  43 northern region, our preface was 07.  44 Q   So the 07, where are they administered from?  45 A   The ones in the area of the land claims are  46 administered from Prince George.  47 Q   Now, can you just explain since your arrival in 1984 19214  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 what your duties have been during your time in  2 Smithers?  3 A  My duties include general administration under the  4 Wildlife Act.  They include doing advising on hunting  5 seasons, trapping seasons.  All matters to do with the  6 direct use of wildlife.  They include doing the  7 necessary biological background work for those duties  8 such as wildlife surveys, estimation of allowable  9 harvest as well as other duties under the Act such as  10 trapline registration work.  11 Q   All right.  And what were in 1984 and are your  12 responsibilities today, and if there is a change  13 please say, related to traplines?  14 A  My duties have been pretty well right since I have  15 arrived in Smithers been the general day-to-day  16 administration of the traplines, processing of  17 registrations, transfers, maintenance of the files  18 regarding registered traplines.  19 Q   And did you have or do you have anybody working under  20 your supervision?  21 A   Yes, Rick Marshall of our office works under my  22 supervision.  23 Q   While you have been -- while Smithers was the  24 headquarters for the Skeena sub-region you reported to  25 Prince George?  26 A   That's correct.  The regional headquarters was in  27 Prince George.  2 8 Q   And who did you report to?  29 A   The regional manager for the fish and wildlife  30 programme.  31 Q   Do you remember his name?  32 A   Up until 1988 that was Steve Willett.  33 Q   And then there was someone who replaced him.  And then  34 in April 1989 you're reporting still to Prince George,  35 or where do you report to now?  36 A  As of April 1989 when Skeena became a full region  37 again we now have our own regional manager.  His name  38 is Tom Chamberlin.  39 Q   When you arrived in 1984, were there districts within  40 the Skeena sub-region, now called the Skeena region,  41 related to trapline management?  42 A   There are conservation officer districts within the  43 sub-region that would have dealt with traplines.  44 Q   And I understand that there are districts with offices  45 at Smithers, Queen Charlotte City, Dease Lake, Atlin,  46 Terrace, Hazelton and Burns Lake?  47 A   That's correct. 19215  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And there are conservation officers in each?  2 A   That's correct.  3 Q   And who do they report to?  4 A   For most duties supervisory they report to the senior  5 conservation officer in Smithers.  In terms of  6 trapline registration they reported to myself or Rick  7 Marshall, the wildlife management staff in Smithers.  8 Q   When you arrived in Smithers in 1984, can you describe  9 generally the system of trapline administration?  10 A   Okay.  We were -- at that time the administration of  11 traplines had only recently been turned over from the  12 conservation officer service to the wildlife  13 management staff.  So at that time we were using the  14 working maps that the conservation officers had for --  15 for depicting traplines and had amalgamated their  16 files into a central regional file.  17 Q   And you mentioned these working maps.  Can you  18 describe in a little more detail what the working maps  19 were?  20 A   These were paper maps at the scale of one to 126,720,  21 otherwise known as two miles for the inch referred to  22 as interim force cover series maps.  23 THE COURT:  Interim?  24 THE WITNESS:  Interim force cover series maps.  2 5    THE COURT:  Yes.  26 THE WITNESS:  Which had hand drawn boundaries on them that  27 reflected the traplines.  28 MR. WILLMS:  29 Q   And so that during the period of time when questions  30 arose or when you had to deal with questions of  31 traplines, can you just explain what you would do or  32 what you did first?  33 A  We would usually refer to those trapline maps.  In  34 case we needed more detail for some reason then we  35 could refer back to the actual registration document  36 itself.  37 Q   Now, you mentioned that the responsibility for  38 trapline administration being transferred from the  39 conservation officer service to the wildlife  4 0 management.  As a result of your employment with the  41 Ministry prior to coming to Smithers, what was your  42 understanding on how that transfer was affected or  4 3 why?  44 A   I believe it came out of the creation of the new  45 Wildlife Act in 1982 and the regulations and policies  4 6 that came from that at that time which put the  47 responsibility for a registered traplines under the 19216  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 regional manager of fish and wildlife.  2 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I recognize it is legislation, but a  3 reference -- if your lordship would like to make a  4 reference to the relevant legislation it is the  5 Wildlife Act Stats B.C. 1982, chapter 57 and sections  6 43 and 46 deal in the Act with the regional manager.  7 And there is also a regulation that was passed in 1983  8 under the Wildlife Act.  It's regulation 338-82,  9 section 3.13 which says that "the boundaries of a  10 registered trapline shall be defined by the regional  11 manager."  That is the statutory background to the  12 evidence of the witness.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. WILLMS:  Could Exhibit 24B be placed before the witness,  15 please.  My lord, this is the map 2.  16 THE COURT:  This has been marked already?  17 MR. WILLMS:  It has been marked for identification, my lord.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19 MR. WILLMS:  20 Q   It hasn't been marked as an exhibit proper yet.  21 Mr. Steventon, you've reviewed Exhibit 24B before  22 coming to court to give evidence?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And if you would please turn to Tab A.  At the second  25 page you will see Mr. Bandy has signed the second  26 page.  Did you meet or speak to Mr. Bandy at all?  27 A   Regarding this item?  28 Q   Yes.  29 A   Yes, I spoke to him on the telephone.  30 Q   Now, without saying what he said or what you said, can  31 you just describe what it was -- the documents that  32 were discussed and what you did?  33 A   The documents that were discussed were the trapline  34 boundary maps for the Skeena region, sub-region.  And  35 so I instructed Rick Marshall who works with me to  36 bundle up the appropriate maps and send them to Dr.  37 Bandy.  38 Q   Now, you earlier in your evidence described the  39 district conservation -- the conservation officer's  4 0 working maps which were in existence when you came to  41 the office.  Were there other maps that were being  42 prepared or had been prepared when you came to the  43 Smithers office in 1984?  44 A   Yes.  When I arrived the process was underway of  45 transcribing the boundaries from those paper maps to  46 mylar versions of the same maps.  47 Q   And when you were talking to Dr. Bandy, were you 19217  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 talking about the mylar copies or were you talking  2 about the original conservation officer working maps?  3 A   I was referring to the mylar maps, the copies.  4 Q   So that when -- if you look on the second page of Tab  5 A, the first full paragraph Dr. Bandy says:  6  7 "The original trapline maps are filed in the  8 Smithers office of the Ministry of Environment.  9 They are maintained by Doug Steventon and/or Rick  10 Marshall of the Fish and Wildlife Branch.  The  11 original maps reflect the status of the traplines  12 in or about January 1986."  13  14 By original trapline map you understand that's a  15 reference to the mylars?  16 A   To the mylar maps that were used.  17 Q   And those are the maps that you instructed Mr.  18 Marshall to send to Mr. Bandy — to Dr. Bandy?  19 A   That's right.  20 Q   Now, can you just explain, after the mylar maps  21 were -- before the mylar maps were sent to Dr. Bandy,  22 what use did you make of those maps in your office in  23 the day-to-day administration of the traplines?  24 A   Those maps were to become the base maps once approved  25 by the regional manager to be the official document of  26 record for the trapline boundaries.  And that would  27 refer to these assigned trapper numbers that were  28 being applied to each trapline.  29 Q   And ultimately were the mylars that you've sent to Dr.  30 Bandy and that he returned, were they reviewed or did  31 the regional manager do anything?  32 MR. GRANT:  Well, unless it was done in the presence of this  33 witness I am not certain whether or not this is  34 admissible.  The obvious person to give that evidence  35 would be the regional manager as to what he did with  36 them.  37 MR. WILLMS:  38 Q   Was there -- have you seen anything endorsed on the  39 mylar maps subsequent to their return from Dr. Bandy?  40 A   Yes.  After the maps were reviewed against the files  41 and from input from trappers they were sent -- they  42 were endorsed or sent to the regional manager for  43 endorsement as the official maps.  44 Q   And those maps are -- where are they now and what use  4 5 is made of them?  46 A   They are kept at our offices in Smithers.  We use  47 those as the -- as the record of trapline boundaries 1921?  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 and for making copies there for the mylars.  2 Q   To your knowledge, after the return of those mylars  3 from Dr. Bandy, were there changes to any of the  4 boundaries before the regional manager certified them?  5 A   There could have been some minor modifications to  6 boundaries based on input from trappers contacted or  7 by the files.  There could have been by the manager.  8 Q   Could have been, but are you aware of any?  9 A   I am not aware of any in the claims area off the top  10 of my head.  11 Q   Thank you.  Would you mind turning to Tab C of Exhibit  12 24B.  And the first document at that tab is a two-page  13 letter from R. Marshall.  Is this Rick Marshall who  14 reports to you?  15 A   Yes, it is.  16 Q   And on the first page, I just want to direct your  17 attention to item D where he says:  18  19 "Trapline boundaries are shown on one to 126,000  20 scale maps."  21  22 What's he referring to there?  23 A   He is referring to the mylar trapline boundary maps.  24 Q   And those were the maps that were sent to Dr. Bandy?  25 A   Yes, they are.  26 Q   Now, I -- when you arrived some of the mylars had been  27 made and some of them -- when were they completed, to  2 8 your knowledge?  29 A   They were completed some time early -- early 1985,  30 approximately.  31 Q   And since the date of the completion of the mylar in  32 the day-to-day administration of the wild -- of the  33 traplines, is reference made to the mylar since 1985  34 or to the working maps?  35 A   Since the -- well, any references since they were  36 approved by the regional manager are to the mylar  37 maps.  38 Q   And how about in the period between the completion of  39 each mylar and the time that it was approved?  40 A  We would usually refer to the -- to the existing  41 working maps of the conservation officers in  42 conjunction with the mylar which was a reflection of  43 it, which was a copy of it.  44 Q   My lord, the next witness, Mr. Marshall, will deal  45 with the working maps and the mylars.  Now, when you  46 arrived in Smithers, were there trapline files in the  47 Smithers office? 19219  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 A   Yes, there were.  2 Q   And can you describe what -- if there were more than  3 one type of file related to traplines what those files  4 were?  5 A  We had a composit regional file of all the traplines  6 that was created when we took over administration of  7 the traplines for the entire region or sub-region at  8 that time.  Then there were also district conservation  9 officer files for the Smithers district which were in  10 that office that were the files used by the  11 conservation officer when he was administering trap  12 files.  13 Q   Now, in terms of the files that the conservation  14 officer had and the files in Smithers, how would you  15 relate those files when you arrived and subsequent?  16 Were there two sets of files or was there a difference  17 between them?  18 A  When I first arrived, yes, we had our current files  19 that we were using which included materials that we  20 were -- the more recent materials that we were  21 actually using for the current registered traplines.  22 The district conservation officer files usually  23 included quite a bit more historical information from  24 sometimes well back that we were not currently using.  25 So we did not necessarily immediately incorporate all  26 of those into our regional file except as when we  27 needed them.  28 Q   And did you have in the regional or sub-regional  29 office from 1984 on a file for each trapline or were  30 there some traplines where there was no file in  31 Smithers but there was a file, an active trapline but  32 a file somewhere else?  33 A   No.  We created a complete set of files for every  34 trapline in our office, in our regional office, to  35 administer the traplines for the whole region.  36 Q   And earlier I listed a number of the district offices,  37 but the district offices which had responsibility  38 within the land claims area were Terrace, Hazelton,  39 Smithers and Burns Lake?  40 A   That's correct.  41 Q   Now, after your arrival in Smithers in 1984, was all  42 the trapline administration in the Skeena sub-region  43 directed by you?  44 A   Yes.  I was responsible for the day-to-day  45 administration of registered traplines for the region.  46 Q   And since it's become a region, has changed or is it  47 still the same? 19220  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 A   No, that's still the same.  2 Q   Now, you described the working maps that were used by  3 the conservation officers in the creation of the  4 mylars, and you've just described the files.  Was  5 there a correlation when you arrived or how were the  6 files and the working maps used in administering the  7 traplines?  8 A  Well, the working maps were the working maps as they  9 were termed for the trapline boundaries.  And they  10 were a reflection of the metes and bounds for the  11 registrations -- on the registrations.  12 Q   So in terms of, if I can put it, document levels of  13 reference when a problem arose what was the first  14 document that was turned to?  Did you turn to other  15 documents?  Could you explain how that worked?  16 A   Okay.  If it was just a general reference to where a  17 trapline was or what the boundary was we would use the  18 working maps.  If there was any kind of a conflict or  19 dispute as to boundaries, that sort of thing, then we  20 would refer -- we would have to research the metes and  21 bounds descriptions on the old registrations  22 themselves.  23 Q   And that would involve going into the files?  24 A   That would involve going into the actual files.  25 Q   And in terms of when you first arrived and before the  26 number system came into effect, what notation was made  27 on the files to differentiate from others?  28 A   They were filed by alphabetical order by the name of  29 the -- last name of the trapper.  30 Q   And how were the -- on the working map was there a  31 designation within a boundary area?  32 A   Yes.  The working maps would have the name of the  33 current trapper written on the map within the  34 trapline.  35 Q   Now, with the updating of the system and the numbers,  36 first of all with respect to the maps, how did the  37 maps change as it went from the working map to a  38 mylar, and I see that numbers are used now.  What  39 changes were made for denoting within a trapline?  40 A   Okay.  Well, this was the adoption of what we call the  41 assigned trapper numbers which was simply instead of  42 referring to a given trapline area by the name of the  43 trapper at that time we simply gave it a geographical  44 reference number which are those assigned trapper  45 numbers which would allow us in all our files to refer  46 to that one geographical area by that number rather  47 than having to keep track of changes of names all 19221  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  THE  GRANT  COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  through the file.  :  My lord, the witness keeps referring to "we".  I  think that this witness, of course, is bound to what  he personally knows.  I would like my friend to keep  that clear.  I am not sure when he says "we" --  :  Is that so, Mr. Grant, when you are talking about a  procedure by an officer of a department?  :  Well —  :  That's the historical rule when life was so much  simpler.  I seem to recall a number of judicial  authorities which question the reality of such a  ruling.  :  Well, I am just not sure whether this witness  himself had any personal involvement in any of this or  if it was all done in his absence.  :  But witnesses are now called to give procedures in  offices and things which are done in the ordinary  course of business.  A secretary doesn't have to  remember mailing a letter anymore.  :  No, I appreciate that.  This is talking about the  changes of maps from working maps to other maps.  And  I think that it is a question of --  :  Well, if the witness knows nothing whatsoever about  it and hasn't had anything to do with it then there  may be some force in the objection.  But surely it  isn't necessary to call every participant in a  multi-staged process in order to attain the status of  admissibility.  :  Well, my friend stopped with the maps a few moments  ago and said that the next witness was going to deal  with the maps.  I understood from that that Mr.  Marshall is a person that knows what happened to the  maps.  Now he is going back to this witness.  I am not  sure that this witness has any personal knowledge.  If  my friend can just lay the groundwork.  :  But that approach defies natural laws which in their  mutual ways says you only call one witness first and  you've got to call every witness subsequent.  Surely  there are things that this witness can say that mesh  with what other witnesses are going to say.  :  Yes, I understand that, my lord.  I haven't heard,  unless I missed it, whether this witness had any  involvement with the changing of the mapping except  for his titular office.  :  Well, I am going to give a lot of thought to what I  expect to hear after the adjournment at 2 o'clock with  regard to what you have to say about that question.  2 19222  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 o'clock, please.  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until 2  3 o'clock.  4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL 2 O'CLOCK)  5  6  7 I hereby certify the foregoing to  8 be a true and accurate transcript  9 of the proceedings herein to the  10 best of my skill and ability.  11  12  13    14 LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  15 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 19222  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER LUNCHEON RECESS)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  5 MR. WILLMS:  Thank you, My Lord.  6 Q   Mr. Steventon, could you describe the part -- first of  7 all the part that you played, and then secondly the  8 part that you observed in the creation of the mylars  9 and the placing of the trapper number on the mylars.  10 A   Okay.  Well, the process had already begun by the time  11 I arrived in Smithers in '84, but it was completed  12 after my arrival in '84.  And Rick Marshall was the  13 one who was doing most of the actual map  14 transcription, and I assisted in parts of it, in terms  15 of the -- when we are applying the assigned trapper  16 numbers to the maps.  And it's a small office, so we  17 work very closely together and confer regularly.  18 Q   So, for example, did you ever observe him transferring  19 information from the working map onto a mylar?  20 A   I observed him working with the mylars.  I can't  21 recall if I actually saw him directly transcribing a  22 line from the working copy, but I saw him working with  23 the mylars, and assisted with putting the numbers, the  24 assigned trapper numbers to the mylar.  25 Q   So that's something where you actually helped put  26 something on the mylar?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   All right.  Now, in terms of the geographic  29 description of trapline areas, is there a difference  30 between the A.T.N, system and the named trapper system  31 that was in the office when you arrived?  32 A   No real difference in substance, other than we just  33 simply assigned a numeric identifier to each of those  34 geographical areas called the trapline, in order to  35 allow us to keep easier records and to computerize  36 those records.  37 Q   Now, in the trapline files would there be a  38 geographic -- or was there geographic descriptions of  39 the trapline?  40 A   Yes, there -- in the old registrations, prior to when  41 we took over registration to create these maps, the  42 mylar maps, the older registrations would have a metes  43 and bounds description right on the registration.  44 Q   And the mylar system, is that a metes and bounds  45 description, or is it a different description?  4 6 A   No.  Once the mylar maps were completed and approved  47 by the manager, then those became the official 19223  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 document for trapline boundaries, and we no longer --  2 on our new registrations we no longer have a metes and  3 bounds description attached to it.  We make reference  4 to the official map, the mylar map by the assigned  5 trapper number.  6 Q   And perhaps just to illustrate, could you turn in  7 Exhibit 24B to Tab D.  8 A   Uh-huh.  9 Q   And at Tab D there is a photocopy of an application  10 for registration of a trapline, Seymour Tom and  11 Company, at the first page.  And is this at the bottom  12 the metes and bounds description that you just  13 referred to?  14 A   Yes, that's an example of a metes and bounds  15 description.  16 Q   All right.  Now, if you turn to page 2 of Tab D.  Can  17 you describe -- is this the new form?  18 A   This is the -- the new registration form that we --  19 currently in use, yes.  20 Q   All right.  And you will note at the bottom, for  21 example, there is the trapline number.  And you have  22 already talked about the assigned trapper number,  23 0603T010.  Correct?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And then there is also a reference underneath that.  26 It says:  27  28 "The boundaries of which are approved by the  29 Regional Manager pursuant to the Wildlife Act  30 and regulations and outlined on the attached  31 maps as registered to the registered holder  32 listed on this form."  33  34 What attached map is -- what map is attached to  35 these trapline registrations?  36 A   Okay.  How we do it now is we now attach a copy, a  37 photocopy of the mylar map for that trapping area with  38 the registration.  39 Q   And is there any reference now in respect of  40 registration of a trapline to metes and bounds?  41 A   No, we don't refer to the metes and bounds any more.  42 We refer via the assigned trapper number to those  43 official maps.  44 Q   Now, can you -- were there other reasons why the  45 assigned trapper numbered system was implemented,  46 other than to change this method of geographic  47 description from metes and bounds to an actual map? 19224  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 A  Well, the assigned trapper number -- basically allows  2 us to track the history of that trapping area from  3 that point on more easily, rather than by a name which  4 changes -- can change from time to time, depending on  5 when a trapline is transferred.  And it's also used in  6 our data collection system on -- for harvest data,  7 actual animals that are trapped.  So that allows us to  8 summarize based on a geographical area such as a  9 region or a grouping of what we called wildlife  10 management units or sometimes on individual trapline,  11 if we want to see how much of a particular animal,  12 type of animal is being taken in a particular  13 geographical area of the province.  14 Q   Now, is there some -- are these trapper numbers used  15 other than just to describe the trapline?  I mean, is  16 there another use that is made in the administration  17 of the traplines and trapping of this number?  18 A  Well, only in -- that's how we arrange our files now.  19 Q   Yes.  20 A   Our individual trapline files are arranged by that  21 number.  22 Q   Are there some commercial restrictions on -- relating  23 to the trapline numbers?  24 A   Yes.  Under the regulations of the Wildlife Act, when  25 somebody goes to sell fur to a buyer, the buyer has to  26 record who he bought that fur from, including the  27 assigned trapper number, and the fur buyers then  28 reports that to our Ministry, and that's how we follow  29 the numbers of furs that are harvested and sold in the  30 province.  31 Q   Now, you mentioned earlier that the trap -- the files,  32 when you came to the office, were organized by the  33 trapper's name.  Now, there -- the reference is to the  34 trapline -- the assigned trapper number.  Was there --  35 did the change to the assigned trapper number make the  36 filing system -- did it change that or make it any  37 easier?  38 A   Only easier, as I said before, in terms of we now  39 refer everything by that number.  So if there is a  40 transfer, for instance, that new registration goes in  41 that same number file, so they -- from that point on  42 the entire history of that trapline is referenced by  43 that number in one file.  So instead of having to go  44 through a lot of names and trying to find records.  45 Q   Now, you've described the, if I can put it this way,  46 the legal change from the assigned -- from the old  47 trapper name system in the file to the mylar, or metes 19225  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 or bounds to the mylar.  In terms of the  2 administration in your office, can you describe any  3 practical change in the administration of the  4 traplines since 1984?  5 A  Well, essentially the process -- the basic process is  6 the same.  It's just the method of recording the form  7 is changed -- the method of recording or filing has  8 changed, and it's by that number.  But in essence the  9 system is essentially the same.  10 Q   Now, at the time that the -- at the time that the  11 mylars were being produced, you wrote a letter to  12 trappers in the Skeena region?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   I am showing you an undated letter which says "Dear  15 Trapper" at the top, "Important".  And that's your  16 signature in the lower left-hand corner?  17 A   Yes, it is.  18 Q   And do you recall when this letter was sent out?  19 A  We sent that letter to all the registered trapline --  20 registered trappers the summer of 1985, mostly August,  21 1985, I believe.  22 Q   Okay.  All right.  Some time during the summer of  23 1985?  24 A   That's correct.  25 MR. WILLMS   Okay.  My Lord, could that be the next exhibit,  26 please.  27 MR. GRANT:  This is a letter, I believe, that comes out of the  28 general miscellaneous correspondence file?  29 MR. WILLMS:  It's also in a number of the Brody files, My Lord,  30 that have already been -- the numbers have been  31 reserved.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  What number are you suggesting for  33 this?  34 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1115.  35  36 (EXHIBIT NO. 1115 - LETTER TO TRAPPER FROM  37 MR. STEVENTON)  38  39 MR. WILLMS:  40 Q   Now, this letter on its face advises of the trapline  41 administration programme in the A.T.N., assigned  42 trapper number, and then it says in the middle  43 paragraph:  44  45 "The attached map outlines the boundaries of the  46 trapline which our files show registered to  47 you." 19226  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1  2 What map was it that was sent to the trapper?  3 A   Those were photocopies or paper copies made from those  4 mylar trapline maps.  5 Q   All right.  And just -- there are only one set of the  6 mylars.  These are the mylars that were sent to Dr.  7 Bandy and then returned and then ultimately certified?  8 A   That's correct.  Yes.  9 Q   All right.  And then in that second paragraph there is  10 an invitation:  11  12 "If inaccuracies are noted, please contact the  13 office within 30 days."  14  15 Did trappers respond to this correspondence?  16 A   Yes.  Not all trappers.  Some -- they were sent by  17 certified mail, so we had some that we just received  18 the proof of receipt.  Others wrote to us either  19 saying they had no problems, or in some cases they had  20 some problems.  Others were returned to us  21 undeliverable.  22 Q   Now, when you got a response from trappers and a  23 dispute arose, can you, without saying about any  24 conversation, tell us the process for resolving the  25 disputes?  26 A   The process was to review the particular traplines  27 involved, that is to look at the maps and look at the  2 8 old maps, the CO. working maps and the metes and  29 bounds description, and see if we can find any support  30 for the discrepancy that was brought to our attention.  31 We then generally have a meeting of the trappers  32 involved, and attempt to come to a mutual resolution,  33 if possible.  And if they came up with a resolution  34 that was acceptable, we would recommend that change to  35 be made to the map.  In the final analysis, if  36 resolution cannot be made, then it's referred to the  37 regional manager for his decision pursuant to the  38 Wildlife Act.  39 Q   You -- I referred you earlier to Exhibit 24A, and I'm  40 not asking you your opinion as a cartographer or a map  41 maker, but from your review of the mylars that were  42 sent to Dr. Bandy and the mylars which you used in  43 administering the traplines, can you comment on the  44 relationship between the mylars and the information on  45 the mylars and Exhibit 24A?  46 A  Well, these appear -- the exhibit appears to me to be  47 a replication of our mylar maps kept in our office. 19227  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 THE COURT:  Well, is that what it is?  2 THE WITNESS:  Well —  3 THE COURT:  Is it a print taken off the mylar?  4 THE WITNESS:  I did not create this map itself.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  6 MR. WILLMS:  From Dr. Bandy's affidavit, My Lord, that is what  7 it is.  He reduced it to one -- it came in at one to  8 one twenty-six thousand.  If you look at his  9 description of procedure under Tab A, he reduced it to  10 one to two-fifty thousand.  And you can actually, My  11 Lord, when you look at the map, you can see the tape  12 lines, where he has taped together the rectangular,  13 and then they photographed them all taped together.  14 But that's all that it is.  15 THE COURT:  All right.  16 MR. WILLMS:  17 Q   Now, the CO. working maps that were in the Skeena  18 region office when you arrived, to your knowledge were  19 those maps created for the purposes of this  20 litigation?  21 A   No, they weren't to my knowledge.  22 Q   The mylar maps that were prepared both before and  23 after you arrived, of the mylar copies of the working  24 maps, were they prepared, to your knowledge, for the  25 purposes of this litigation?  26 A   No, they were not.  27 Q   And the entries and changes on the mylar map that may  28 have been made as a result of responses from trappers,  29 were any of those made, to your knowledge, for the  30 purposes of this litigation?  31 A   No, they were not.  32 Q   And from your arrival in Smithers in 1984 until today,  33 are the working maps and the mylars your  34 responsibility and in your official custody?  35 A   Yes, they are.  36 Q   Now, could you please turn to Tab C of Exhibit 24B.  37 And you will see that the pages are numbered at the  38 top, and I wonder if you could turn to page 27 and on.  39 And from page 27 and on there are small maps with  4 0 numbers on them, and the numbers begin with 7.  Can  41 you tell the Court what those represent, that is the  42 prefix of the number 7?  43 A   It represents a registered trapline in the Omineca or  44 the northern region.  45 Q   All right.  So, for example, if we -- if you turn to  46 page 27 you will see -- and then onto 28, there is a  47 number 739T006.  It appears to be in an area that runs 1922?  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 just to the north of Thutade Lake.  And then if you  2 turn to the next page, page 28, you will see that  3 number represented again immediately beside Thutade  4 Lake.  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   All right.  And can you just describe what that is?  7 A   The number?  8 Q   Yes.  9 A   The number, again, is the registered trapline number  10 for that outlined trapline for that area.  11 Q   All right.  Now, I wonder if you -- and perhaps you  12 can just do it underneath Thutade Lake.  If you  13 wouldn't mind on Exhibit 24A just placing that trapper  14 number in the same area that it is in Exhibit 24B, Tab  15 C, page 28.  So that's the number 7.  Just put  16 739T006.  And perhaps just while we are at the map, if  17 you turn to page 30, there is a -- do you have that?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   You see 738T012.  And if you turn to the next page,  20 again appears to be a continuation of 738T012, and on  21 the page 30 it's near Two Lake Creek.  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Now, the number again, 738T012 --  24 A   That would be the registered trapline number.  25 Q   All right.  Perhaps just across Two Lake Creek.  26 A   This location here.  27 Q   On Exhibit 24A could you write that number, 738T012,  28 just across, so that it runs horizontally across Two  29 Lake Creek.  Now, turning then to -- we were at page  30 31, and you will see on the Driftwood River in the  31 lower middle of the page the number 727T011.  32 A   Uh-huh.  33 Q   What's that number?  34 A   That's that registered trapline number.  35 Q   If you wouldn't mind, can you see on Exhibit 24A  36 around Driftwood --  37 A  All right.  In this location here.  Driftwood.  Here  38 it is right here.  This location right here.  39 Driftwood.  40 Q   All right.  You have the Driftwood River.  And  41 Driftwood Lake, which are both at page 31 of Tab C,  42 Exhibit 24B?  43 A   That's correct.  44 Q   Perhaps you could write right near Driftwood Lake  45 727T011.  And you will see immediately adjacent to it  46 on the right, which would be to the east of Bear Lake,  47 there is 727T010.  Can you locate that? 19229  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 A   Yes.  It's right in here.  2 Q   And perhaps to the east of Bear Lake you could put  3 that on Exhibit 24A, 727T010.  Now, if you turn to  4 page 33, and you will see there appears to be the  5 continuation down Condit Creek of 727T011, and then  6 immediately to the southeast of it a number 727T007.  7 That's also an assigned trapper number?  8 A   Yes, it is.  9 Q   And -- you will see that the Driftwood range and  10 Condit Creek appear to angle across Kotsie,  11 K-O-T-S-I-E, River?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And you have identified the Kotsie River on Exhibit  14 24A.  Perhaps just above the Kotsie River you could  15 put 727T007.  And as you said earlier in your  16 evidence, the 7 number indicates that it's in the  17 present Omineca sub-region of the northern region?  18 A   That's correct, yes.  19 Q   Now, could you turn to page -- and just turn back,  20 there is a Tab C at page 26 of Exhibit 24B.  There  21 appears to be a computer printout "trapper information  22 form".  First of all have you seen forms like this  23 used in the Smithers' region -- or sorry, the Skeena  24 region?  25 A   Yes, this is a form created on our computer data base  26 for trapper registrations.  27 Q   So -- and in the Smithers' office do you have forms  28 like -- similar to this for prefix 06?  29 A   06 traplines.  30 Q   Yes.  31 A   Yes, they do.  This is taken directly off the  32 computer.  33 MR. WILLMS:   My Lord, I have to apologize.  At this time I  34 wanted to mark or tender a document which contained --  35 and it's a very large document -- with certificates of  36 not only this witness on the files in Smithers, but  37 also other witnesses, and because of some problems  38 that we have had in copying, they are not here yet.  39 But that's the last evidence that I have from this  40 witness.  And I -- it was supposed to be here by now,  41 and I -- things happen, and we have breakdowns.  I  42 wonder if I might have five minutes to find out when  43 or how long it will be before they can get here?  44 THE COURT:  Well, is it not convenient just to carry on with the  45 cross-examination?  46 MR. WILLMS:  That's agreeable —  47 THE COURT:  Would you rather wait five minutes, Mr. Grant? 19230  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT:  Well, I am unpleasantly surprised by my friend.  But  I have been informed up until the end of last week  that this witness was going to be on direct for a day  and-a-half.  Don't get me wrong, I am prepared to  start my cross now, but --  THE COURT:  You are prepared to start crossing, but --  MR. GRANT:  Well, I wish my friend — to Mr. Willms' credit, he  did inform me after the lunch break that he thought he  would be finished by the break this afternoon.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  But up 'til then I thought that I wasn't going to  start until tomorrow morning.  But in any event --  THE COURT:  What do you want to do, Mr. Grant?  MR. GRANT:  If he thinks -- if this document can be brought  within five minutes, otherwise if it's going to be an  hour or so we may be --  THE COURT:  All right.  I will return to my Chambers and wait —  MR. GRANT:  I presume the Federal Crown isn't going to ask to  cross-examine this witness.  THE COURT:  Yes.  Are you —  MR. FREY: I have heard nothing so far that needs to be  cross-examined.  THE COURT:  All right.  Well then, I'll await the call of  counsel.  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A BRIEF RECESS)  I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  PROCEEDING HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  SKILL AND ABILITY.  LORI OXLEY  OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 19231  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  4 MR. WILLMS:  5 Q   My lord, before I turn to those three volumes, I have  6 one more question out of Exhibit 24B for Mr.  7 Steventon.  If you could turn to the Tab D.  At the  8 back there is a map of regional boundaries of August  9 1984.  You'll see that that describes the northern  10 area that you were describing before?  11 A   That's correct.  12 Q   Which has now been changed so that the Skeena is now a  13 separate region?  14 A   That's correct.  15 Q   And then immediately preceding that there are five  16 pages of an extract from a --  17 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, what is the approximate easterly boundary  18 of -- or any boundary of the Skeena division?  19 THE WITNESS: If you can locate in the upper centre of that map  20 the Kechika River flowing into -- flowing out of  21 Williston Lake, the north end of Williston Lake?  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 THE WITNESS: The boundary would be the height of land say half  24 an inch, roughly half an inch say west of the Kechika  25 River or an inch to the west approximately going  26 north-south along there.  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28 THE WITNESS: So it would be roughly half of that what is shown  29 as the northern region on that map, the northern half.  30 THE COURT:  And when it gets down south does it dodge the lakes,  31 or does it cut through the middle of it?  For  32 example --  33 THE WITNESS:  No.  It follows down so that, for instance, just  34 outside the land claims area you will see Babine Lake?  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 THE WITNESS: That's within.  But Takla Lake is just outside the  37 Skeena region.  38 THE COURT:  So it runs between Babine and Takla?  39 THE WITNESS:  That's correct.  40 THE COURT:  To the west of Stewart Lake?  41 THE WITNESS: To the west of Stewart Lake.  And it passes just  42 to -- just to the west of Fraser Lake.  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 THE WITNESS: The community of Fraser Lake.  Then it cuts down by  45 the end of Tetachuk Lake.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  47 THE WITNESS: And then it looks onto that east-west blue line you 19232  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 see there.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  So the entire red outlined  3 area which is the claims area is in the Skeena area?  4 THE WITNESS: Except for a small area if you see in the upper  5 right-hand corner of the claims area Thutade Lake.  6 THE COURT:  Which you talked about earlier?  7 THE WITNESS: That's right.  8 MR. GRANT:  And he also mentioned Bear Lake also.  9 THE WITNESS: And a little piece of Bear Lake which is just off  10 of the Sustut River.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  Bear Lake is outside the Skeena division?  12 THE WITNESS: That's correct.  13 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  14 MR. WILLMS:  15 Q   Now, just turning to the five pages at Tab D of  16 Exhibit 24B For Identification is an extract from the  17 procedure manual volume 4, section 7.  Can you confirm  18 that at least for a period of time, I don't know  19 whether there have been any revisions, but this  20 contains an extract of the manual that you used to  21 administer in the administration of traplines?  22 A   Yes.  This is an extract from the Ministry procedural  2 3 manual.  24 MR. WILLMS:  Now, my lord, that brings me to the three binders  25 that I have handed up.  If your lordship could find  26 Volume 1, the binders are entitled Schedule A to  27 notice to admit dated June 30, 1989 with certificate  28 of documents.  And just as an explanation, my lord, a  29 notice to admit was sent to the plaintiffs.  And I'll  30 try to mark that as soon as -- my lord, I have four  31 separate stapled documents which I would like to  32 tender as the next exhibit.  The first document is our  33 letter of June 30, 1989.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. WILLMS:  June 30th enclosing a notice to admit re: trapline  36 files.  And as it says on the letter, my lord, Exhibit  37 995-41 was a list of what I've been calling -- or I  38 think we've all been calling the Brody trapline  39 documents.  But they were really the Smithers trap --  40 the Smithers region documents which were marked or  41 attempted to be marked during Mr. Brody's  42 cross-examination.  43 The second document is the notice to admit the  44 authenticity of the documents in Schedule A.  45 Following that is Schedule A to the notice to admit.  46 And then following that is my friend's reply of July  47 12, 1989 saying that they are preparing a response -- 19233  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 expect to provide a response shortly, and a denial of  2 the authenticity of the documents.  There has been no  3 admission of the authenticity of the documents  4 subsequent to that.  I won't get into the  5 correspondence, but there was recent correspondence.  6 It is for that reason, my lord, that these three  7 volumes of documents are being tendered now.  8 Simply speaking, these documents contain  9 certificates of primarily Mr. Steventon and Mr.  10 Marshall, but also four other individuals at offices  11 in the Smithers -- sorry, in the Skeena region.  Each  12 tab of the volume relates to the identical tab in  13 Exhibit 995-41.  So the number that was reserved  14 995-41A, I believe the 20 volumes of documents --  15 THE COURT:  994-41 is the —  16 MR. WILLMS:  Is the list.  17 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, 994-41 is what?  18 MR. WILLMS:  Is the list of the documents which were tendered.  19 THE COURT:  In Mr. Brody's evidence?  20 MR. WILLMS:  In Mr. Brody's evidence.  And then the number  21 995-41A was reserved for the 20 volumes which were  22 also in court at the time, and my colleague Mr. Goldie  23 referred to them.  24 THE COURT:  But they haven't been admitted?  25 MR. WILLMS:  They haven't been admitted.  And at the end of this  26 process, my lord, we will seek to have them admitted  27 because of the certification process which I will get  28 into with the witness in a minute.  But that is the  29 purpose of these three volumes to show that all of the  30 documents that were in the 20 volumes came from files  31 which were kept in the usual and ordinary course of  32 business in the Skeena region in Smithers.  33 THE COURT:  You'll forgive me for not having the clearest  34 recollection of all of this, but I think I recall that  35 while they were tendered in Mr. Brody's evidence it  36 was in cross-examination, was it not?  37 MR. WILLMS:  It was.  They were offered in the  38 cross-examination.  And, in fact, Exhibit 994-41 was  39 marked in the cross-examination of Mr. Brody.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  41 MR. GRANT:  You may recall, my lord, there was a table of 20  42 volumes.  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 MR. WILLMS:  So that before I put the document to the witness to  45 have him identify some of them as he can, if your  46 lordship could turn to the first volume there is an  47 index at page -- at the beginning.  That index in 19234  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  terms of the column A.G.B.C document number, the  trapline number, trapline holder and the tab number is  identical to schedule A to the notice to admit.  COURT:  Yes.  WILLMS:  And what has been added for the purposes of these  three volumes is a column indicating who has certified  the documents in a particular file.  There is a code  at the very top of the first page which identifies the  six people who have certified, Mr. Steventon, Mr.  Marshall, Mr. Hoyer, H-O-Y-E-R.  COURT:  Yes.  WILLMS:  Mr. Stent, Mr. McGunigle, M-C, capital  G-U-N-I-G-L-E, and Mr. Guillon, G-U-I-L-L-O-N.  COURT:  So I know where we are going here, Mr. Willms, are  you going to now re-tender the 20 volumes?  WILLMS:  What I propose to do, my lord, is this.  All I  propose to do is ask Mr. Steventon a couple of  questions about the certification process.  COURT:  Yes.  WILLMS:  Have him identify one of his certificates and  explain what he did with that certificate.  Have --  suggest to him that the certificates haven't changed  since he did them.  We will have Mr. Marshall here  tomorrow.  COURT:  Yes.  WILLMS:  I have already offered to my friend that if he  requires it we will call Mr. Hoyer, Mr. McGunigle, Mr.  Stent and Mr. Guillon to say that these are their  certificates.  Then I will sit down and my friend can  cross-examine them.  But we are seeking to tender the  20 volumes of documents as an exhibit as being  documents in the usual and ordinary course of  business.  COURT:  All right.  WILLMS:  That's where I'm going, my lord.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  WILLMS: And perhaps the first thing that I can do is mark  those documents that I referred your lordship to  starting with the letter of June 30th and the notice  to admit, and the Schedule A to the notice to admit,  and Mr. Adams' letter of July 12th, 1989 as the next  exhibit.  COURT:  All right.  Well, Ms. Sigurdson's letter of June  30th will be 1116.  (EXHIBIT 1116:  Letter dated June 30, 1989 Re:  Trapline Files)  1  2  3  4  THE  5  MR.  6  7  8  9  10  11  THE  12  MR.  13  14  THE  15  16  MR.  17  18  19  THE  20  MR.  21  22  23  24  25  THE  26  MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  THE  35  MR.  36  THE  37  MR.  38  39  40  41  42  43  THE  44  45  46  47 19235  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  THE COURT:  And then the schedule will be 1117?  MR. WILLMS:  Well, we have the notice to admit as a separate  document.  THE COURT:  All right.  The notice to admit will be 1117.  (EXHIBIT 1117:  Notice to Admit)  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  1118 is the schedule.  (EXHIBIT 111?  Schedule "A" to Notice to Admit)  THE COURT:  And 1119 will be the response.  MR. WILLMS:  Thank you, my lord.  (EXHIBIT 1119:  Letter dated July 12, 1989, Response)  MR. WILLMS:  I have the originals, my lord.  They will be in the  volume that I will be tendering as the exhibit.  In  the originals, and this is before I get to Mr.  Steventon, I should advise your lordship that the --  there is writing on each of the certificates which  identifies where the document has been disclosed.  For  example, at certificate 1, tab 1, B1276 is A.G.B.C.  number 1276.  And then tab 1 refers to the tab in what  I have called the Brody exhibits, but the 20 volumes.  So at tab 1 some of these documents were disclosed.  The balance are disclosed by document number 3553,  that's A.G.B.C. document number 3553.  And item four  can be found at tab 261.  So that on each document --  now, that has been added after so that these documents  can be related not only by the index, but you can turn  to any particular document, any particular certificate  and at the top of the certificate or in the column  beside the certificate the A.G.B.C. document number is  listed and the tab where it can be found, where the  document can be found is listed.  THE COURT:  MR. WILLMS  THE COURT:  MR. WILLMS  Q  A  That word that looks like H-E-M is item, is it?  That's item.  It's not hem for.  All right.  I am going to put volume 1 before Mr. Steventon.  Just  generally, Mr. Steventon, you have already given  evidence about the Smithers -- the trapline files that  were in Smithers when you arrived.  Do you recall  that?  Yes. 19236  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And you also recall taking part in a certification  2 process of documents contained in files?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And can you just describe what part you played in the  5 certification process?  6 A  Well, I went through each file, trapline folder and  7 went through the list provided of the items in the  8 folder, compared each item to that list and ticked it  9 off to certify that there were -- that those items  10 were in that time file.  11 Q   Okay.  And the first certificate in the three volumes  12 by -- which is your certificate is at tab 3.  Can you  13 confirm that at page 4 at the bottom dated June 23,  14 1989 that that's your signature?  15 A   That is my signature, yes.  16 Q   And at the very beginning of the document at the top  17 it says:  18  19 "I certify that the documents listed  20 below are contained in the file noted  21 below and are kept in the normal course  22 of business at the Ministry of  23 Environment, Fish and Wildlife Branch in  24 Smithers, British Columbia."  25  26 Is that your evidence today?  27 A   Yes, it is.  28 Q   Now, I won't take you through each and every one of  29 the certificates that you made in that.  But to the  30 extent that there are certificates in these three  31 volumes that are signed by you, and they all have the  32 same preamble, do you adopt that certification as your  33 evidence today?  34 A   Yes, I do.  35 Q   I don't intend to go through them, my lord.  36 Now, certificates have also been prepared by Mr.  37 Marshall, and he is going to be called to give  38 evidence.  So Mr. Terry McGunigle has certified some  39 files.  Can you tell the court who Mr. McGunigle is?  40 A  Mr. McGunigle is the district conservation officer in  41 Terrace.  42 Q   And in respect of trapline administration, who does he  43 report to?  44 A   The conservation -- all the conservation officers  45 including Mr. McGunigle refer trapline matters to us  46 in Smithers, myself and Rick Marshall.  47 Q   All right.  Mr. Greg Hoyer.  There are also 19237  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1 certificates of Mr. Greg Hoyer.  Who is he?  2 A   He is a conservation officer, formerly district  3 conservation officer in New Hazelton.  I believe he is  4 now in Penticton or Kelowna, somewhere in there. But  5 at the time of the certificates he lived in New  6 Hazelton.  7 Q   Mr. Peter Stent, S-T-E-N-T?  8 A   He is distsrict conservation officer in Burns Lake.  9 Q   And Mr. Frank Guillon, G-U-I-L-L-O-N?  10 A  Mr. Guillon is district conservation officer in  11 Vanderhoof.  12 Q   And the Vanderhoof office is in -- is in the northern  13 region administered from Prince George?  14 A   That's correct.  15 Q   But you know Mr. Guillon?  16 A   Yes, I know him.  17 Q   Now, the information that is contained or was  18 contained in the trapline files at Smithers, were  19 those -- was that information information that you  20 relied on from time to time in the administration of  21 your duties under the Act, the Wildlife Act?  22 A   Yes, it is.  23 Q   And do you have an obligation to retain materials on  24 file in these files pursuant to the Act?  25 MR. WILLMS:  Well —  26 MR. GRANT:  Well, that's a question of law, my lord.  My friend  27 can argue that when he argues the admissibility.  I  28 don't think what this witness says is a legal  29 obligation.  30 MR. WILLMS:  Well, I will rephrase it.  31 THE COURT:  All right.  Rephrase it.  32 MR. WILLMS:  33 Q   Do you understand -- and if you do explain how, do you  34 understand that you have an obligation to maintain  35 these files?  36 A  Well, I have been directed by my superiors to maintain  37 these files.  38 Q   And who is that?  Who have those superiors been?  39 A   The wildlife section head and the regional manager.  40 MR. WILLMS:  Those are all the questions that I have, my lord,  41 at this time.  I would like to -- Exhibit 24B has been  42 marked for identification.  I would like -- I submit  43 that that should be marked as an exhibit proper now.  44 I have already -- the affidavit of Dr. Bandy refers to  45 the items that this witness hasn't referred to.  It's  46 my submission that it can be an exhibit proper at this  47 time, and I tender it. 19238  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1  MR.  GRANT:  2  MR.  WILLMS  3  MR.  GRANT:  4  THE  COURT:  5  MR.  WILLMS  6  THE  COURT:  7  MR.  WILLMS  8  9  THE  COURT:  10  MR.  WILLMS  11  THE  COURT:  12  MR.  WILLMS  13  14  THE  COURT:  15  MR.  WILLMS  16  17  THE  COURT:  18  MR.  WILLMS  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT:  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  MR.  WILLMS  35  36  37  THE  COURT:  38  39  MR.  GRANT:  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT:  44  45  46  MR.  GRANT:  47  Which one?  :  Exhibit 24B.  I understand --  Well, I'm sorry, is 24B not the map?  :  No, 24A is the map.  Okay.  :  But 24B has only been marked for identification.  I  am tendering it as an exhibit proper at this time.  24B is this entire book?  :  It's the entire book, my lord.  Yes.  :  And you'll recall that Dr. Bandy's affidavit speaks  to the certification at the second page.  Yes.  :  It speaks to the documents at Tab A.  Tab B is just  an extract from the Wildlife Act.  Yes.  :  Tab C I suppose is the only one that should wait  for Mr. Marshall.  But Mr. Marshall will be giving  evidence that there is a two-page letter and the  computer printout.  This witness has given evidence  about the trapper information forms starting at page  26, and also the maps at the balance of Tab C.  I have  taken Mr. Steventon through the documents at Tab D.  They've also been referred to in Dr. Bandy's  affidavit.  Well, Mr. Willms, I'm tempted -- you are trying to  persuade me otherwise, but I am tempted to defer the  marking of these things until after this phase of the  evidence is completed so that I will have the benefit  of cross-examination and argument based upon the whole  of the evidence.  Is there any reason why it should be  marked now?  :  Well, I don't know whether my friend has any  objection to it that relates to the evidence of this  witness in any event.  I rather gathered there was an objection.  If there  isn't we will mark it now.  Well, in light of the fact that my friend has  tendered this morning the affidavit of Dr. Bandy but  not the cross-examination, for example, and now relies  upon it for this --  That's not so, Mr. Grant.  Your friend said that the  cross-examination can go in any time they can produce  a copy.  He hasn't objected to it.  Well, what I am saying is when we deal with the  argument relating to certain portions of this document 19239  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  In chief by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  THE  COURT:  5  6  MR.  WILLMS  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT:  11  MR.  WILLMS  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT:  22  23  MR.  WILLMS  24  THE  COURT:  25  MR.  WILLMS  26  27  28  THE  COURT:  29  MR.  GRANT:  30  31  32  THE  COURT:  33  MR.  GRANT:  34  35  THE  COURT:  36  MR.  GRANT:  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT:  44  45  THE  REGIST  46  THE  COURT:  47  MR.  WILLMS  I think the cross-examination will be of assistance,  and all of the documents should be dealt with at once  relating to the traplines.  I will deal with it all at once when we finish the  evidence of this witness.  :  Thank you, my lord.  The one other point, my lord,  is the three volumes.  There are documents that have  been certified by Mr. Steventon.  Mr. Marshall will be  giving evidence.  Yes.  :  And I have already said that I will call the other  witnesses if my friends require.  I would like to mark  the three volumes, and to the extent that I can't  prove those things, but I can because I can get the  witnesses here if they want them, we can pull the tabs  out, those certificates.  But I would rather not leave  this witness without having at least marked the three  volumes so that his certificates in those volumes are  in evidence.  He has already given evidence about  them.  So I'm offering --  I think you should renew that application when the  cross-examination is finished.  :  Of this witness?  Of this witness, yes.  :  Perhaps we should mark them for identification so  that when my friend refers to it there is a reference  on the record.  Are you likely to refer to it, Mr. Grant?  Well, I don't even have them yet, although I have  them in another -- the deck is shuffled in a different  way for me.  They can certainly be marked for identification.  I think that's fine.  They can be marked for  identification now those volumes.  All right.  I think that Brody -- or I think what my friend has  referred to, and I think mis -- possibly the risk here  as the Brody book shouldn't be referred to that way  because there are trapline documents that were  tendered in examination of Mr. Brody as part of his  evidence.  They should be referred to, I think, as the  Smithers trapline extracts.  The three volumes should be Exhibit 1120, 21 and 22  For Identification.  RAR:  They've been reserved.  No, that's something different.  :  A is what relates to these, my lord. 19240  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  THE  COURT:  2  MR.  WILLMS  3  THE  COURT:  4  5  MR.  WILLMS  6  7  8  THE  COURT:  9  10  MR.  WILLMS  11  THE  COURT:  12  MR.  WILLMS  13  THE  COURT:  14  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT:  19  MR.  WILLMS  20  THE  COURT:  21  22  CROSS-EXAM  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  Yes.  995.  :  995-41A are the 20 volumes on the floor.  That's right.  These three, it is the first time we  have seen them?  : Yes. But it could be one document, one exhibit  number, my lord, because they are tabs one through  504.  All right.  They will be Exhibit 1120, tab — what  number?  One to what number?  :  504.  504.  :  Sorry, volumes 1 to 3, tabs 1 to 504.  Yes.  All right.  (EXHIBIT 1120 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Smithers Region  Trapline Certificates, Volumes 1, 2, 3 - Tab 1 - 504)  Yes, Mr. Willms.  :  Those are all my questions, my lord.  Thank you.  Mr. Grant.  EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  Mr. Steventon, I just wanted to understand something.  Mr. Guillon is the conservation officer in Vanderhoof?  That's correct.  And I understand that you haven't examined his  certifications.  You've just been looking at your own?  That's correct.  And Mr. Guillon doesn't report to you?  That's -- with the exception of some of our traplines  go into his -- overlap into his district.  So he  will -- if he has a matter of business on that  trapline he will deal with us.  But normally, no.  But if he deals with the traplines that he is  generally dealing with he would report to Prince  George to another person?  Most often, yes, he would report to another person.  Who is that?  In regards to traplines it would be my equivalent  there, Glen Watts.  So you have no knowledge about his trapline files and  what Mr. Guillon does except to the extent that he  follows a standard procedure?  For the most part, yes.  That's correct, except for  some of the files that he has referred to us.  Okay.  Now, you put a series of five numbers on  Exhibit 24A For Identification? 19241  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And these were the seven series trapline numbers?  3 A   That's correct.  4 Q   Now, if I understand your evidence right, Mr.  5 Steventon, those traplines are not administered by  6 yourself?  7 A   That's correct.  8 Q   Or by your office?  9 A   That's correct.  10 Q   And you have no other knowledge of them other than  11 what Mr. Willms directed you to on this map -- on  12 these maps and asked you to transpose those maps?  13 A   Not entirely.  We have because they abut on to our  14 region we do have paper copies for most of the -- for  15 the maps that abut on to our region in our office so  16 when we were drafting our maps we would jive.  17 Q   Now, the reason why you would need paper copies of  18 maps abutting on to your region is because your office  19 was part of this re-drafting of trapline boundaries?  20 A   The re-drafting on to the mylar maps, yes.  21 Q   And I understand that you never went out on the ground  22 to do that.  It wasn't necessary?  23 A   Did not go out.  No, we did not go out on the ground  24 in terms of for drafting the maps, no.  25 Q   Or to determine where a boundary was?  26 A  With one or two exceptions.  Not in the land claims  27 area, but in another area I did go out in the ground.  28 Q   Where?  29 A   In the Iskut area where we had a dispute between two  30 trappers as to where the line on the map would be in  31 reference to a highway, Highway 37.  32 Q   And who are those two trappers  33 A   It was the Iskut Band and a person by the name of  34 Claude Charrette.  35 Q   Was he a Tahltan person?  36 A  Mr. Charrette?  37 Q   Yes.  38 A   No, he is not a native person.  39 Q   You said there was a couple of examples where you went  40 on the land.  Where else did you go, or was that the  41 only one?  42 A   No.  I also went out on the ground on one in the  43 Terrace vicinity, a dispute about a similar thing.  A  44 dispute between two trappers as to where the line that  45 we indicated on the map would actually be on the  46 ground.  So prior to having a meeting with them, I  47 went out on the ground.  I went out there and took a 19242  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 look with reference to the roads.  2 Q   Now, you indicated this morning or early this  3 afternoon that when you sent out this -- this letter,  4 this circular I may call it, the Exhibit 1115, you  5 recall you sent that out.  You described that you sent  6 this out?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Now, you got some responses?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Where are they?  Where did you put the responses?  11 A  Well, the certified mail receipts are filed in our  12 office in Smithers.  13 Q   In what files?  14 A   That was the first level of response.  15 Q   In what files?  16 A  We have them in separate boxes.  17 Q   Organized in what way?  18 A   Organized by trapline number sequentially.  19 Q   They are not in the -- so they are not in the trapline  20 file with that number?  You've indicated that now they  21 are not in that file?  22 A   No.  At least not most of them, anyway.  23 Q   And then if somebody wrote you a response, where would  24 that written response go?  25 A   That would go into the trapline file, that trapper's  26 file.  27 Q   Now, when you reviewed the certifications relating to  28 the Smithers trapline files -- first of all, the ones  29 that these certifications apply to, I would like to  30 clarify something here.  You described in a way that  31 when you arrived there were two sets of files or at  32 least there are two sets of files in Smithers.  One of  33 the Smithers conservation officers who is in charge as  34 the sort of man on the ground and one of your regional  35 files; is that right, relating to traplines?  36 A  At the time that I arrived in Smithers, that's right.  37 Q   Then you organized them, re-organized them as part of  38 your --  39 A  Well, myself and Rick Marshall.  40 Q   Right.  But the conservation officer in Smithers still  41 has his files today?  42 A   No, actually he doesn't.  Those have been completely  43 moved into our files as of today.  44 Q   So everything in his files is now in your files?  45 A   I believe that's the case.  46 Q   What about the Hazelton conservation files?  47 A   In those cases there are still document files in those 19243  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 outlying offices.  We moved the ones that we needed  2 for --  3 Q   That's where you edited the file.  You took what you  4 needed and you left the rest?  5 A   That's correct.  So there is still files there.  6 Q   Now, the file that you certified.  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Are those your Smithers files on those traplines?  9 A   Yes.  Those are files that came to Smithers.  10 Q   Okay.  But they are the regional office files?  11 A   That's correct.  12 Q   So that if it relates to a trapline from where the  13 original file is in Hazelton this file that you've  14 certified may not have everything that's in that file?  15 A   It may not have everything that is in the file in  16 Hazelton.  17 Q   Right.  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Right.  It would only have what you deemed was  20 necessary for your purposes?  21 A   Correct.  22 Q   And similarly from Burns Lake?  23 A   Correct.  24 Q   And similarly from Terrace?  25 A   Correct.  26 Q   Now, are those the -- Terrace, Smithers, Burns Lake  27 and Hazelton, are those the four main offices,  28 district offices that deal with traplines within the  29 claim territory?  30 A   That's correct.  31 Q   What about Stewart?  32 A   There is no office in Stewart.  33 Q   Dease Lake I think you said?  34 A   There is an office in Dease Lake.  35 Q   Does it cover any of the area?  36 A   I don't believe it does.  37 Q   Now, what if there was a telephone call from a trapper  38 after receiving Exhibit 1115 from you.  Where would  39 you put the notes of the telephone call?  40 A   It would depend on the nature of the telephone call.  41 If it was of a substantial nature there would be a  42 note put in the individual trapline file.  43 Q   And if not?  44 A  Well, some casual calls I didn't record.  45 Q   Okay.  But at the same time as you were sending out  46 these letters you were in the process of organizing  47 the files, right? 19244  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  A  We had them -- at the time we sent the letters out we  already had the files in this numerical sequence.  Q   For the region?  A   That's correct.  Q   I'm showing you a document.  Do you recognize that  document?  A   It would appear to be a trapline registration form.  Q   Have you seen it before, that specific one?  I know  what the form of document is.  It is an application  for registration of a trapline, it says on the top.  It is dated August 30, 1974, it says on the bottom.  It has a person's name.  MR. WILLMS:  Well, the —  MR. GRANT:  Let me deal with this, would you, please.  MR. WILLMS:  Well, I object, my lord.  My friend identified this  document as he passed us as Tab 3.  I have looked in  Tab 3.  It looks like it is a double photocopy of  something that may be in Tab 3, but you can see from  the document itself that there is a photocopy over top  of it.  My friend should identify what the document  is .  I will in due course. I am in the middle of  cross-examination. I would appreciate you not  obj ecting.  Mr. Grant, you are not entitled to put something to  the witness without your friend knowing what it is.  MR. GRANT:  I told him what it is.  I said it is Tab 3.  THE COURT:  He says there is some difficulty with it which can  be straightened out without any heat which at this  time there is no reason for.  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  I agree, my lord.  Now, it is stated as an application for  registration of a trapline.  For your reference, my  lord, it is the last page of tab 3 of Exhibit 995-41A.  Now, do you recognize that particular document?  I believe I have seen the name of Kurt Praxel before  in the file, but I couldn't place it exactly.  Can you read it?  Not the entire -- not the entire document, no.  You would agree with me that it is entirely illegible?  The central portion certainly is.  I'm sorry.  I agree, the central portion of the  document is illegible.  Now, I could look at Exhibit  1120.  Well, I will leave this for a moment as I  cannot -- I'm sorry, my lord, I haven't had a chance  to look at these certificates.  I thought I had 19245  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 understood what my friend was proposing, but it may be  2 different.  3 MR. WILLMS:  I can certainly help my friend to identify that if  4 he wants to know.  It's a very simple explanation of  5 what that document is if he wants to know.  6 MR. GRANT:  7 Q   Mr. Steventon, what you did when you did these  8 certificates is you compared the file -- as I  9 understand, you took your copy of the file and looked  10 at the copy of my friend's black book, the --  11 A   No.  I had the file as from our office in front of me.  12 Q   Right.  13 A  And the list on the certificate, the list of items.  I  14 checked the contents of the file with that list.  15 Q   Well, who prepared the list?  16 A   That was prepared by --  17 MR. WILLMS:  By us.  18 THE WITNESS:  By the office of —  19 MR. GRANT:  20 Q   Mr. Willms' office?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   I see.  So what you did was you just checked off the  23 list?  24 A   That's correct.  25 Q   Okay.  Now, let me show you once again this document  26 that I have referred you to.  Would you agree with me  27 that as you went through the files you found documents  28 like this that were illegible?  29 A   Yes, there were several that were illegible.  30 Q   And the copies in the files were illegible?  31 A   Yes, there were some.  32 Q   And so you couldn't determine what the file -- what  33 was on the document any better than we can from this  34 copy?  35 A   That's correct.  36 Q   So all you could do was in this case refer to the date  37 and the name at the top Kurt Praxel, for example, and  38 it is an application for registration of a trapline?  39 A   That's correct.  40 Q   Now, in terms of your work in the administration of  41 the traplines, would you agree with me that this  42 document is not very helpful to you?  43 A   That particular one would not be particularily helpful  44 other than identifying Mr. Praxel having that  45 registration at that time.  46 Q   But when you say "that registration at that time", you  47 can't tell from the document what that registration 19246  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 is, can you?  2 A  Well, in this case I can't read the metes and bounds  3 description.  At least not the entire one, that's  4 correct.  5 Q   And would you not agree with me that that was the case  6 with some of the documents in many of the files that  7 were on the list?  8 A   Yes.  There were quite a few instances like that.  9 Q   I would like to show you a letter and ask if you  10 remember receiving a copy of this.  It is already in  11 Exhibit 993.  It is in Exhibit 993 which is the binder  12 on Neil Sterritt's evidence, and I -- it is 993, Tab  13 26, my lord.  I have got a copy for you.  I'm sorry,  14 996 -- 993-25.  Now, do you recall receiving this  15 letter?  16 A   Yes, I do.  17 Q   And you remember this letter, having looked at it?  18 A   Yes, I do.  19 Q   And what steps did you take upon receipt of this  20 letter to modify or to ameliorate the problem raised  21 by Mr. Sterritt about the trapline registration, that  22 is the A.T.N, system?  23 A   I referred this letter because it dealt with matters  24 beyond my authority.  I referred it to our regional  25 manager who was Mr. Steve Willett at that time.  2 6 Q   And do you know what -- did you become subsequently  27 involved further with it?  28 A  With this specific letter?  29 Q   With the issue raised by Mr. Sterritt and the  30 resolution of the apparent conflict he raises between  31 your A.T.N, system and what he expresses concern with?  32 A   I would have to re-read the letter to refresh my  33 memory as to the details.  34 Q   Oh, go ahead.  35 A   Could I have the question again, please?  36 Q   Did you have any dealings regarding the issue raised  37 by Mr. Sterritt -- I mean what did you do?  You said  38 you referred this letter to Mr. Willett?  39 A   That's correct.  40 Q   I understand that.  In terms of your implementation of  41 the A.T.N, system, what, if anything, did you do or  42 were you directed to do after receipt of this letter?  43 A  Well, I was directed to -- that the process was one of  44 general application and to continue -- to continue  45 with it and to make every effort we could to work with  46 the individual trappers or the Tribal Council in  47 resolving any individual problems. 19247  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q   In other words, to -- not to take into account the  2 concern expressed by Mr. Sterritt that "the proposal  3 was a substantial revision of a management system  4 which we've never accepted" and the concerns he raises  5 with respect to the A.T.N, system?  I mean you didn't  6 do anything different, in other words?  7 A  Well, we didn't see it as a substantial change in the  8 administration system.  It was simply putting the map  9 onto a different base map, that mylar plastic, and  10 applying a numerical identifier to the trapline areas  11 rather than a name.  So in the sense of a change, we  12 didn't see it as a substantial change.  13 Q   But there is something more, wasn't there?  It wasn't  14 just a matter of changing a name to a number.  15 A  Well, we were asking for -- we were taking the  16 opportunity to update our files, so we were asking all  17 the trappers to indicate if they had a concern with  18 the boundary we indicated or any changes to be made  19 for the registration.  20 Q   Okay.  But the boundary that you indicated to the  21 trappers is from your re-drafting, not yours  22 individually, but from your office's re-drafting of  23 the maps, right?  24 A  Well, those were the re-copying of the existing  25 working maps.  Essentially the process was one of  26 maintaining the status quo in terms of boundaries as  27 is stated in my letter there.  28 Q   But there were problems in doing that, wasn't there?  29 A   Oh, yes, there was some problems.  30 Q   Because the system up to the time you got there in  31 1983, Mr. Steventon, would you not agree the system  32 was not necessarily compatible, it was haphazard?  33 A  Well, it may have been -- it possibly could have been  34 done better, I suppose.  35 Q   Wait a minute.  You may not understand what I am  36 saying.  In other words, you would have a metes and  37 bounds description of one trapline that wouldn't  38 measure with the metes and bounds of the trapline  39 next-door?  40 A   In some cases.  But the working maps, there are a  41 variety of --  42 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, let the witness finish, please.  4 3    MR. GRANT:  44 Q   Go ahead.  45 A   There are some cases, for instance, when metes and  46 bounds were described from different dates of maps, so  47 due to mapping scale errors and different vintage 1924?  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 maps, for a variety of reasons there were instances  2 when metes and bounds did not seem -- did not  3 correspond between traplines.  But the working maps  4 were sort of a composit, if you like, of those  5 different traplines.  6 Q   But they depended on the accuracy of the recording of  7 the individual area in the specific area, right, at  8 the specific time?  9 A   I am not sure I understand your question.  10 Q   Well, these working maps were ones that were in the  11 district offices, right?  12 A   Yes.  There was a copy in the regional office.  13 Q   And if it was in Hazelton, for example, then Mr.  14 Guillon would have made notations on it as the -- in  15 terms of the trapline if it was one he was dealing  16 with; is that right?  17 A   Yes.  Whichever conservation officer was at that  18 particular office.  19 Q   I know.  Just using that as an example?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And before him his predecessor would?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   So the process of mapping the traplines would have  24 been dependent on the accuracy on which the particular  25 CO. who did that mapping reflected what was told to  26 him, would you not agree with that?  27 A   Reflected what was told to him?  28 Q   Yes?  2 9 A   By whom?  I don't —  30 Q   Well, where would the CO. get the information?  31 A  Well, most of these cases -- of course there was the  32 original description of the trapline.  But in most  33 cases there would be a transfer of a trapline for one  34 reason or another from one individual to another, so  35 in a lot of cases there was no change of description.  36 So in some cases --  37 Q   So it would be a mapping from the description, the  38 mapping obtained from the metes and bounds  39 descriptions on the application?  40 A  Well, I wasn't there.  I would presume so.  41 Q   Well, maybe I am asking you something that is hard for  42 you to answer because you don't know.  And if you  43 don't know just tell me, that's fine.  So you don't  44 know -- what you did was you took these working maps I  45 am talking about and you mapped them onto -- or under  46 your direction Mr. Marshall mapped them onto this  4 7              mylar? 19249  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   That's right?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   But you have no idea where the description from the  5 working maps came from.  You don't know that?  6 A  Well, a lot of cases you could cross-reference with  7 the —  8 Q   No.  9 A   -- existing currents metes and bounds.  10 Q   But when you say the "current metes and bounds", which  11 one are you talking about?  You know that on these  12 files that are in this things that there are metes and  13 bounds from a trapline that vary over the course of  14 several years on these same traplines.  You agree with  15 me on that?  16 A   In some cases, yes.  Because we were taking over the  17 administration at that point in time our maps were to  18 represent the current status quo, in effect, or the  19 current state of affairs with the current maps and  20 boundaries.  21 Q   So where did you go to map the mylar?  22 A   From those conservation officer working maps.  23 Q   Just before you proceed there, how could you determine  24 what was the updated conservation officer working map?  25 A  Well, the officers kept those maps updated.  26 Q   That's what I want to know is what do you mean they  27 kept them updated?  Were they the maps from -- were  28 they changed on those maps or would they throw away  29 one set and do another set?  30 A   In most cases you can actually see on the maps where  31 erasures have been made to the name of a person on a  32 particular trapline.  33 Q   But what about on the lines of the boundary?  34 A   Of the maps that we were using from the C.O.s there  35 was -- well, in some cases you could see erasures with  36 corrections for boundaries.  But for the most part  37 they were just the existing maps at those times.  38 Q   Your friends have provided me with these maps.  You  39 have the original working maps here?  40 A   They are here.  41 Q   Now, are you aware of an inherent problem with the  42 process that you did in 1985 in terms of delivering a  43 map, an excerpt of a map to an individual trapper and  44 asking him to confirm whether or not that's right?  45 Was there not a problem with doing it that way as far  46 as the trapper's knowledge of what you're describing?  47 A   I'm not sure I understand your question. 19250  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q   You're familiar with the fact that many trappers could  2 not read those maps that you sent, aren't you?  3 A   There could be some.  That was partly the reason why  4 we also sent information to the different groups, to  5 our conservation officers, the bands, tribal councils  6 and the like.  7 Q   Right.  8 A  Mh'm.  9 Q   Like the information you sent to the Gitksan  10 Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council to which Mr. Sterritt  11 responded in that letter?  12 A   That's correct.  13 Q   But when concerns were raised with you about trappers  14 not being able to read the maps, did you go out on the  15 ground, other than those two examples that you gave  16 me, with any of the trappers to point out to them what  17 you were saying was their trapping territory?  18 A  We went over several in the office on the maps.  I did  19 not receive any actual request to go out on the ground  20 with the trapper.  21 Q   Could you -- do you know if you could go out on the  22 ground and take any one of these trapping areas that  23 you did in A.T.N, that you could locate where those  24 lines were on the ground?  Do you know if you could do  25 that?  26 A   In some cases, yes.  In some cases, no.  Whenever you  27 put a line on a map there is always occasionally some  28 difficulties locating whether it is right here or  29 right here when you are standing on the ground.  30 Q   That's right.  And you are a person that can read  31 maps, I presume?  32 A   Yes, fairly well.  33 Q   I mean you can identify -- you know where 24A is?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And even you would have difficulty with these.  Do you  36 not agree with me that it would be a much more serious  37 difficulty for many trappers that you were dealing  38 with?  39 A   In some cases.  Although sometimes the trappers know  40 the ground better than we do in the sense of being out  41 there.  42 Q   They know the ground, but they don't know the map.  43 That's the dilemma, isn't it?  That's what I was  44 raising to you is to put the line on the ground that  45 is not easy, you would agree with that?  46 A   That is not easy in some cases.  47 Q   And in some cases it is well nigh impossible? 19251  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  MR.  GRANT  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  It could be.  Are you aware of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Blanket  Trapline Proposal?  Generally.  :  It's Exhibit 993.  My lord, I indicated that this  came out of 993, the previous one, too.  I think I  will have to check it because it was Volume 1 of the  Sterritt document binder and that just doesn't make  any sense.  It doesn't make sense because when Mr.  Sterritt was giving evidence we weren't that high up.  In any event, it is an exhibit.  :  You mean this letter?  :  Yes.  The letter was -- just a moment.  Exhibit  633A, yes.  :  633A?  :  Yes.  And the next document I will be referring the  witness to is Exhibit 631.  I have a copy for the  court.  This is 631 you say?  631, yes.  All right.  They are in Volume 1 of the Sterritt volume book.  Have you seen this before?  Yes, I have.  And you're familiar with this proposal?  Not all the detail, but I have read it in the past.  You not only have read it, you attended this meeting,  didn't you?  No, I did not.  And -- but this proposal was directed to you because  you were the person in charge of traplines at the  time?  I remember getting a copy.  I don't know if the main  copy was directed to me.  But it was referred again  through my superiors again to the regional manager.  And Barry Saunders was one of those?  Yes.  I believe Victoria was involved as well.  Now, you indicated earlier that one of the disputes  that you've dealt with was in the Iskut area?  Yes.  And that was with the Iskut Band?  Yes.  And you are familiar, and you do understand that there  are band permits, band trapline registrations?  Yes.  With the Wildlife Act in 1982 the wording of the  Wildlife Act said the traplines had to be registered 19252  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  THE COURT:  39  40  MR. GRANT:  41  THE COURT:  42  MR. GRANT:  43  44  45  46  47  to persons.  So even though -- for instance, in the  case of Iskut even though it is referred to as the  Iskut Band Line, it is referred to as that in the old  registrations, we currently show it as a list of those  members.  And the Kitwancool Band has a band trapline?  The same sort of thing, yes.  You are aware of that?  Yes.  Commonly referred to as the Kitwancool Band  Line.  But what you've just described was one of the reasons  why this proposal was rejected, wasn't it?  Yes , it was.  Because it was deemed by your superiors that it  wasn't -- that they couldn't give a blanket trapline  to a band organization?  Under the existing legislation, yes.  Although that  has been amended now, apparently.  Do you know Less Cox?  Yes, I do.  He was formerly in charge of the Smithers office Fish  and Wildlife Branch?  Yes.  I believe he was district conservation officer  in Smithers, and then senior conservation officer in  Smithers for quite a few years.  I believe 1948 to 1978?  He had retired by the time I got to Smithers, but I  have met him since.  And have you discussed the trapline files with him?  No, I haven't.  You didn't discuss any questions that you had relating  to the trapline files?  I have not personally discussed it with Less Cox, no.  Would you agree that the vast majority of the  documents in the files would have been generated  during his time?  A goodly number of them, yes.  Mr. Grant, you are going to be a little while yet,  aren't you?  I am.  I was going to ask to stop at this point.  So was I.  I have a matter to attend to.  Well, my lord, just one point.  My friend has  expressed some concern.  I want direction from the  court to -- I wasn't aware -- it wasn't clear until I  heard the evidence of Mr. Steventon to the extent to  which the mylars formed part of this process.  My  friends have the mylars and also the original 19253  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 conservation officer maps here.  They were expressing  2 some concern as to their authority to release them to  3 me.  I would ask for some direction that they be  4 directed to -- I just want to review them overnight  5 and compare them to the copies that they have provided  6 me with and have an option to look at them and that  7 would help to expedite matters tomorrow.  8 THE COURT:  Are the originals one of a kind, Mr. —  9 MR. WILLMS:  The originals are one of a kind because they are  10 the one -- they are the official certified maps.  We  11 have made blueprints, identical blueprints for my  12 friend.  I think he wants to test our blueprinting  13 capability, and certainly he is entitled to do that.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15 MR. WILLMS:  But the witness wasn't authorized by his superior  16 to release them to anybody but us.  And because of  17 that -- I mean certainly my friend is entitled to  18 compare the blueprints we sent him to the mylars.  19 THE COURT:  The mylars are here in the building?  20 MR. WILLMS:  I believe they are.  Yes, they are.  21 THE COURT:  Well, can the comparison not be made here, Mr.  22 Grant, and the blueprints taken away?  23 MR. GRANT:  I indicated to my friends I just wanted -- I didn't  24 want to have to do it in court under the court  25 restraints.  I said I would take them and keep them in  2 6              my room here and bring them back tomorrow morning.  27 THE COURT:  Well, that sounds all right.  28 MR. WILLMS:  That's fine.  29 MR. GRANT:  And the same as the maps —  30 THE COURT:  I take it what you are saying is you don't think  31 they should be taken out of the building?  32 MR. WILLMS:  I think not only the witness but I would feel more  33 comfortable that they stay here since they are --  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. WILLMS:  They have more than just passing interest.  See if you can work within that, Mr. Grant.  That's not a problem.  All right.  Thank you.  10 o'clock, please.  39 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until 10  40 o'clock tomorrow.  41  42 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO AUGUST 6, 1989 AT 10 O'CLOCK)  43  44  45  46  47  3 6 THE COURT  37 MR. GRANT  3 8    THE COURT 19254  J.D. Steventon (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein to the best of my  6 skill and ability.  7  8  9  10 LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  11 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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