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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-04-12] British Columbia. Supreme Court Apr 12, 1989

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 15313  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 April 12, 1989  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, Vancouver, this Wednesday, April 12, 1989,  6 in the matter of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the  7 Queen at bar.  I caution the witness you're still  8 under oath.  9 THE COURT:  Mr. Jackson.  10 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, I have spoken to my friends, and I think  11 I should advise your lordship that we would expect to  12 sit on the Saturday of this week --  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. JACKSON:  -- to complete the witness' evidence.  15 THE COURT:  I was afraid you might be saying that.  16 MR. JACKSON:  The other matter, some housekeeping first of all,  17 my lord.  In relation to the transcript of April the  18 10th, Volume 210, there are a number of small  19 corrections which ought to be made.  On page 14158 at  20 line 9 and again at line 13 the transcript presently  21 reads, "...cultural and economic change in  22 continuity," in relation to the first head of  23 expertise I sought to qualify Mr. Brody in.  It should  24 read, "...cultural and economic change and  25 continuity."  26 THE COURT:  That was at line 9 and line?  27 MR. GOLDIE:  9, yes, my lord.  28 MR. JACKSON:  9 and line 13.  2 9 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  30 MR. JACKSON:  And the court reporters have also managed to  31 invent a new language.  32 THE COURT:  Well, they're in good company.  33 MR. JACKSON:  On page 14163 at line 10 the question I asked was:  34 "Did you in fact learn one of the languages of  35 Inuktitut," which is I-n-n-u-c-k-i-t-u-t, and that  36 should be inserted instead of Inishkillane and  37 similarly in line 11.  38 THE COURT:  Yes.  How do you spell that?  39 THE WITNESS  4 0 MR. JACKSON  41 THE WITNESS  I think you got it wrong, if I might say so.  Oh.  I-n-u-k-t-i-t-u-t.  42 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I-n-u-k-t —  43 THE WITNESS:  — t-i-t-u-t.  44 THE COURT:  Okay.  45 MR. JACKSON:  That demonstrates, my lord, that the confusion of  46 the court reporters is one shared by not them alone.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  Maybe the question and answer as recorded was 15314  1 equally correct.  2 MR. JACKSON:  And in line 10 — sorry — line 11 Inuktitut  3 should also be substituted for Inishkillane.  4 The other matter, which my friend Mr. Goldie has  5 brought to my attention, is on page 14226 at line 40.  6 The word "anthropology" at the beginning of the second  7 line, line 40, should be "island."  8 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry, I may have misled my friend.  Perhaps I  9 might comment before we go further.  My lord, the  10 notes that counsel took of the question that my friend  11 asked indicated that the words "in Ireland" were  12 present in that question.  I asked Miss McHale to be  13 kind enough to listen to the tape, and what she had  14 thought was inaudible she was able to identify as  15 those words "in Ireland," but she put it after the  16 words "in social anthropology in Ireland."  My first  17 suggestion is what Mr. Jackson had referred to, that  18 it was the words in place of "anthropology," but she  19 had omitted as being inaudible, but on closer scrutiny  20 or listening to the tape she identified the words "in  21 Ireland" after "social anthropology" in that line.  22 THE COURT:  I see.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  That was what we have been advised.  24 MR. GRANT:  That was my knowledge.  25 MR. JACKSON:  Thank you, Mr. Goldie.  26 THE COURT:  If that's all there is, I think she did remarkably  27 well.  28 MR. JACKSON:  I agree, my lord.  Mr. Brody — oh, there was  29 perhaps one other matter I should do at this point  30 also, my lord.  Mr. Brody referred to an interview in  31 his report at page 24.  It's an interview with Johnny  32 David.  And I referred him to tab 21 as that  33 interview.  I have with Mr. Brody reviewed that tab,  34 and the interview upon which he relies at page 24 of  35 his report in fact is an interview with Johnny David  36 which appears at tab 37.  37 THE COURT:  Page 24.  38 MR. JACKSON:  Page 24.  Page 24 and page 25.  3 9 THE COURT:  Tab 27.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  37.  41 MR. JACKSON:  37, my lord.  42 THE COURT:  37.  Thank you.  43  44 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONTINUED BY MR. JACKSON:  45 Q   Just to clarify that, Mr. Brody, that interview was  46 not a film interview, as I understand?  Perhaps you  47 could just look at tab 37. 15315  1 A   Tab 37 was not a film interview.  2 MR. JACKSON:  If you could — yes.  And perhaps the exhibit,  3 which was marked at that point, ought to be tab 37  4 and, of course, not tab 21.  5 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  6 MR. JACKSON:  7 Q   Mr. Brody, if you could turn to page 56 of your  8 opinion.  When we finished yesterday afternoon, you  9 had described the spectrum of stability and mobility,  10 and you had sought to locate Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  11 in the context of that spectrum approach.  I would  12 like to refer you to the second paragraph at page 56,  13 where you say:  14  15 "Behind the mixture of permanence and  16 fluidity there stands its counterpart in a  17 combination of precisely located fishing  18 sites (in some cases a rock point from which  19 a basket trap can be set or dip netting  20 practised to good effect) and extensive  21 territories where a wide range of animals  22 and birds have to be taken in opportunistic  23 manner.  The social system, too, encompasses  24 permanence and fluidity.  Ownership is  25 always delineated with great precision in  26 the feast system.  Yet the ways in which  27 land is in fact used by House members are  28 suggestive of mobile, adaptive hunting and  29 trapping.  The total Gitksan area is a  30 mosaic of House territories."  31  32 Could you -- do you have any further comments to make  33 on that passage?  34 A  Well, what I'm trying to get at is the way in which  35 Gitksan economic life relies on some resources that  36 are always in the same place every year and therefore  37 entail a permanence and other resources that have to  38 be pursued because they're in different places on  39 quite wide areas of land, hence this opportunistic  40 hunting, and that kind of resource entails mobility.  41 And I'm also saying here, therefore, there is moving  42 around plus territoriality, and the territoriality  43 involves a system of ownership, and the ownership is  44 of specific territories, and one should understand  45 this ownership in relation to the feast system.  I  46 think it's important to be clear that ownership is  47 specified at certain kinds of feasts, not at all 15316  1 feasts, and that very often chiefs can refer to their  2 territories very simply by a reference to one or other  3 geographical feature.  In fact, most territories have  4 a name which is to do with its geographical feature as  5 well as the name of the house that owns the territory.  6 MR. JACKSON:  If you could turn to page 62 of your opinion, the  7 chapter on the Wet'suwet'en.  8 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, what page?  9 MR. JACKSON:  10 Q   Page 62, my lord, in the last paragraph, where you  11 say:  12  13 "Wet'suwet'en flexibility vis-a-vis hunting  14 and trapping is also evident in the people's  15 ownership and use of their territories.  For  16 example, some areas - typically for berry  17 picking - are identified as 'open'.  These,  18 known as weesitl, are excluded from the  19 general laws governing Wet'suwet'en  20 territories as a whole."  21  22 Could you make any further comment you wish on that  23 passage?  24 A  Well, the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en alike have, as I  25 have said, this mixture of permanence and fluidity and  26 extensive hunting territories, and the Wet'suwet'en,  27 in my view, have a greater degree of flexibility and  28 in this regard are more Athabaskan, that they also  29 have a system of ownership and delineated territories.  30 What I discovered among the Wet'suwet'en is that there  31 are a number of areas that are deemed to be open  32 grounds.  I'm sure you've heard evidence on this  33 already, my lord, so I won't go into the detail but --  34 MR. GOLDIE:  I think we would like to know the source of it.  35 THE WITNESS:  And these open grounds include berry picking  36 areas, as I recall, places where certain important  37 mineral resources came from, and these — although  38 they belong clearly in the Wet'suwet'en system to  39 specific houses, there is an accord to the effect that  40 anyone can go to them, perhaps with the -- in some  41 cases I believe with the permission of a particular  42 chief, always given year to year, in other cases in a  43 more general way.  The actual ownership remains  44 according to Wet'suwet'en law, and they are owned  45 according to the Wet'suwet'en system, but the openness  46 of access is more flexible than might be the case in  47 other territories.  And my source of this is a number 15317  1 of conversations with Alfred Joseph when moving around  2 in Wet'suwet'en territory where he pointed to areas  3 and tried to explain who they belonged to and who had  4 access to them.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Perhaps my friend could assist me a little further.  6 Are any of these conversations recorded in the notes  7 that we are given?  8 MR. JACKSON:  9 Q   Mr. Brody, in terms of formal interviews which have  10 been reduced either to writing or typescript, do any  11 of those contain this information?  12 A  My interview -- my formal interview with Alfred Joseph  13 I don't think does go into this, as I recall.  I think  14 that I don't have notes on the conversations I had  15 with Alfred Joseph when driving around in the  16 Wet'suwet'en area.  17 Q   At page 64 of your report, the very last sentence, you  18 say:  19  20 "But the mutual Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  21 influences must have been at work for  22 centuries, possibly for millennia."  23  24 Could you explain the basis for that opinion?  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Or speculation.  26 A   There's one piece of evidence that's very striking to  27 me that comes from the adaawk and kungax.  The adaawk  28 record conflicts at boundaries, so we find conflicts  29 between the Gitksan and the Nishga, the Tsetsaut, the  30 various Athabaskan peoples north and east.  Stikine I  31 think are referred to in adaawk as persons with whom  32 there are violent exchanges.  There are records of --  33 in the adaawk -- there are references in the kungax  34 and the adaawk to conflicts between the Wet'suwet'en  35 and the Carrier and the Wet'suwet'en and their  36 neighbours to the south.  Absent from the adaawk and  37 kungax are references to conflict between Gitksan and  38 Wet'suwet'en, and that's a very striking piece of  39 evidence for me, especially in the light of the fact  40 that the fur trade precipitated conflict across  41 northwestern Canada.  Bear Lake was an example.  Bear  42 Lake, B-e-a-r Lake, was an example we heard about  43 yesterday.  But also from my other work in northern  44 British Columbia I know that the fur trade  45 precipitated conflicts between Carrier and Sekani and  46 to some extent the Dunne-za, that's D-u-n-n-e-hyphen-  47 z-a, also.  So the absence of a record of conflict 15318  1 between the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en despite the  2 widely acknowledged impact of the fur trade in this  3 respect is very striking indeed.  It makes me suppose  4 or leads me to the opinion that the interlocking of  5 those two societies has very considerable time depth.  6 Q   I'm going to move now, my lord, to the next chapter,  7 Chapter 7, Frontiers.  Mr. Brody, if you would turn to  8 page 71 of your opinion, the middle paragraph, where  9 you say:  10  11 "In northern Canada, the early stages of  12 frontier culture are marked by a combination  13 of three agencies - fur trade companies,  14 church and government.  This three-pronged  15 colonial presence seeks to change the  16 authority structure, economic relationships  17 and spiritual systems of the peoples they  18 encounter.  This is well documented in the  19 case of northern development and Canadian  20 internal colonialism."  21  22 Could you explain what you mean in that passage?  23 A   Everywhere I have worked in the north the three  24 agencies that play the central part in affecting early  25 relations and affecting certain kinds of changes in  26 northern culture are the Hudson's Bay Company  27 typically, and sometimes free trade has also;  28 missionaries, Catholic and Protestant; and agencies of  29 the government, including the police.  Now, each of  30 these has its own particular concern and, therefore,  31 has a certain set of changes in which it's interested  32 in and certain kinds of change that it wants to  33 effect, but there is in each area I have ever worked,  34 including Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en area, a very  35 striking relationship between the three that says a  36 lot about the course of history at northern frontiers.  37 MR. JACKSON:  What is that relationship?  38 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I take it I don't need to object to the  39 relevance of all of this speculation and guesswork.  40 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, in introducing this set of chapters I set  41 out for your lordship that what Mr. Brody was seeking  42 to do in this opinion was to relate the interaction  43 between natives, in particular the Gitksan and  44 Wet'suwet'en, with non-natives in order to understand  45 the ways in which institutions, laws, and authority  4 6 met and were accommodated or not accommodated, the  47 extent to which Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en institutions 15319  1 gave way, adapted, changed or continued.  That is the  2 thrust of the evidence this witness is speaking to,  3 and as I set out in one of the passages which I read  4 from Mr. Brody's report, in order to understand the  5 nature of that encounter and the way it affected  6 change and continuity in Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en is  7 to understand the nature of frontier culture, and that  8 is what Mr. Brody is now seeking to address, and I  9 submit that it is of relevance in understanding the  10 issue of change and continuity and in understanding  11 the question of whether or not Gitksan institutions  12 continued.  13 THE COURT:  Well, I think I understand what you're doing, Mr.  14 Jackson.  I think this is all part of the exercise  15 that we're engaged in, and I think you should  16 continue.  17 MR. JACKSON:  18 Q   Thank you, my lord.  19 My question, Mr. Brody:  What is the nature of the  20 relationship between fur trade companies, church and  21 government?  22 A  Well —  23 THE COURT:  You're speaking now, of course, as an anthropologist  24 in giving your opinion --  25 THE WITNESS:  Yes, my lord.  26 THE COURT:  -- on the interaction of these three forces in  27 society?  28 THE WITNESS:  That's what I understand I'm doing, my lord, yes.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  30 THE WITNESS:  Give me your question again, please.  31 MR. JACKSON:  32 Q   What was the nature of the relationship between the  33 three agencies you identified:  fur trade companies,  34 church and government?  35 A   I said a moment ago that each has its own  36 preoccupation and its own purpose, and sometimes these  37 preoccupations and purposes come into conflict one  38 with the other.  An example that I believe came up  39 yesterday is that of the missionary wanting the feast  40 to stop and the fur trader perhaps being disposed to  41 want the feast to continue.  So on that ground the  42 relationship between church and trader could be  43 conflictual, and their view of the aboriginal culture  44 that they are meeting could be quite different, and  45 one can specify differences of that kind as between  46 the agents and agencies on the frontier.  However,  47 they share something very much in common, which is a 15320  1 belief that the aboriginal peoples really need to make  2 some kind of cultural progress.  They share a view  3 that on the evolutionary ladder the aboriginal peoples  4 they are dealing with are somehow lower down the  5 ladder and they are higher up, and the way for the  6 peoples to come up the ladder is through their help.  7 So, for example, traders believe that or come from a  8 culture that believes or represent the notion that a  9 person who involves in trade and trade relations and  10 accumulations of wealth is a more civilized person  11 than someone who is entirely based in subsistence, and  12 the missionary believes that someone who has Christian  13 views is more evolved and more developed than someone  14 who has shamanistic ideas.  And all this results --  15 and if I go back to my spectrum theory, perhaps it's a  16 bit helpful here -- all this results in a wish to get  17 people to be more settled, to be more concentrated in  18 one place, to be more available to the white agents  19 who want to treat with them, and even traders, in  20 whose interests it is that the people move about on  21 the land, nonetheless want the people to come to the  22 trading posts, to have their villages close to the  23 traders, to be there with them, and as this process  24 continues at the frontier one finds a combined  25 pressure from these agents on the people to settle  26 and, as it were, to move further along the spectrum  27 forwards the settlement end.  There's a combined  28 attempt, therefore, to make a very general change to  29 the culture.  30 Q   Mr. Brody, the -- what you referred to as frontier  31 culture, is this something about which you have  32 written outside of the context of the Gitksan and  33 Wet'suwet'en?  34 A   Yes, it is.  35 Q   Is it an anthropological insight which is specific to  36 yourself?  37 A   I wouldn't think so, no.  That depends exactly what  38 you were referring to by insight.  39 Q   Is the subject of the relationship between what you  40 have referred to as agencies of trade, church and  41 government and native people something about which  42 anthropologists have written?  43 A   Oh, yes, yes.  44 Q   In the context -- so I can finish my question, in the  45 context of understanding change and continuity in  46 native society?  47 A   Yes, I would think so.  I'd have to search my mind. 15321  1 The literature --  2 MR. GOLDIE:  How about Peter Usher?  3 THE WITNESS:  Peter Usher would be an example.  And Dunning is  4 an example.  Honningman is an example.  There are  5 many, but the emphases are rather different one to the  6 other.  7 MR. JACKSON:  8 Q   And one of the other examples I think you have given  9 in footnote 4 at page 75 is volume 1 of the Mackenzie  10 Valley pipeline inquiry?  11 A   Yes, I suppose that would constitute an example  12 insofar as that's an anthropological document.  13 MR. JACKSON:  I would like to turn, my lord, to Chapter 8, and  14 the purposes of this -- I'm handing up document book  15 2.  Not getting lighter I'm afraid, my lord.  Chapter  16 8 is headed, my lord, "Barbeau-Beynon Archive," and it  17 comes under a general rubric of Mr. Brody's reports,  18 which is First Encounters, Part Three, of which  19 Chapter 8 is the first chapter.  It's page 77, my  20 lord.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  22 MR. JACKSON:  23 Q   Mr. Brody, at page 77 you refer to the Barbeau-Beynon  24 archive, and you state in the last sentence of the  25 first paragraph:  26  27 "Their work provides the supporting evidence  28 for the opinion in this chapter as to  29 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en earliest knowledge  30 of and responses to white individuals in  31 culture."  32  33 Could you explain, first of all, who Barbeau-Beynon  34 are and what the archive is?  35 A   Barbeau is a French anthropologist and I believe  36 musicologist who made eight, if I'm not mistaken,  37 eight field trips to the Skeena Valley area in  38 northwest British Columbia between about 1915 and  39 1945.  He was particularly interested in collecting  40 oral histories and made extensive -- made extensive  41 notes on oral histories, and he's well-known also for  42 his work on the totem pole.  His strength definitely  43 lies in his ability to collect.  He was an  44 extraordinary collector.  As a speculator about  45 anthropological matters, I have my doubts, but as a  46 collector he was thorough and -- and indefatigable.  47 However, the greatness of his work really was a result 15322  1 of his meeting with Beynon, who was a Tsimshian Indian  2 from the lower Skeena, I think.  They worked together  3 first in, if I'm not mistaken, 1915, and Beynon became  4 Barbeau's interpreter and general informant about  5 Tsimshian life.  And the extraordinary thing about  6 this relationship is that Beynon sort of took off on  7 his own.  Beynon clearly tremendously much enjoyed the  8 collecting of oral history, and he was bilingual  9 Tsimshian-English, and Beynon from 1915 until I think  10 1950 or '51 continued to collect more and more and  11 more Tsimshian, Gitksan, and Wet'suwet'en oral  12 history, among other things.  They also collected  13 songs, details of dances.  Barbeau's accounts include  14 detailed records of feasts, and on and on.  It's an  15 amazing archive, truly amazing, especially since it  16 was all collected in the original languages.  17 They made extensive use of a third person,  18 Constance Cox, who was the wife of Loring towards the  19 end of her life but previously was the — I should  20 have begun at the beginning.  Constance Cox was the  21 daughter of Hankin, the trader at Hazelton, and a  22 Tsimshian -- I mean a Gitksan mother, and her mother's  23 mother was a Tsimshian.  So Constance Cox was brought  24 up in a Gitksan-speaking home in Hazelton, and I'm  25 told by elders of today that she was extraordinary for  26 the way in which she lived inside the Gitksan world as  27 a person who had a white father and then subsequently  28 a white husband.  Constance Cox was used a great deal  29 by Barbeau as an interpreter and as a sort of extra  30 informant, and Constance Cox's own stories appear in  31 the Barbeau-Beynon archive.  32 Q   How did you make use of the archive for the purpose of  33 understanding the early cultural history of Gitksan  34 and Wet'suwet'en responses to white individuals and  35 culture?  36 A   There is an index to the archive that was put together  37 by the Museum of Man in Ottawa which specifies in  38 broad terms the content of every item, so one can go  39 through this index of what would otherwise be a  40 completely unmanageable body of material and find  41 topics that might be of use.  So I went through the  42 index and picked out all the topics that seemed to  43 deal with Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en relations with  44 whites in the area and any other topic I thought might  45 be useful to this opinion and read all those.  At the  46 same time I should add that I would wherever possible  47 see if I could find elders who could provide some 15323  1 corroboration or some further insight into the events  2 that I was reading about in the archive.  3 Q   At page 78 of your opinion at the top you say in the  4 first paragraph:  5  6 "Since a large proportion of the interviews I  7 read were conducted in the 1920s with men  8 and women of middle or old age, the  9 firsthand experiences reach back well into  10 the last century."  11  12 And then the last part of the paragraph:  13  14 "In this way the archive leads us to a time  15 before the arrival of the first whites along  16 the upper Skeena and Bulkley valleys.  Here,  17 therefore, is a remarkable window looking  18 onto Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en cultures at  19 the time of first white contact, revealing  20 the nature of the encounter from then until  21 approximately sixty years ago."  22  23 And that is your opinion?  24 A   Yes, I -- for an anthropologist it's amazing to have  25 the Barbeau-Beynon archive because it does provide  26 such -- surprisingly such an unusually direct access  27 to the cultures.  28 Q   If you could turn to page 79, where you at the top  29 allude to the range and richness of the archive, and  30 you say:  31  32 "But what, albeit in brief, does it reveal  33 about the meeting between radically  34 different kinds of culture?"  35  36 And then you say:  37  38 "The people received warnings when change was  39 about to come.  Rumours passed from village  40 to village.  'Nothing ever arrived without  41 it being known beforehand.'"  42  43 Could you comment on that?  44 A  Well, there are several places in the archive where  45 people talk about anticipating the arrival of whites,  46 and this anticipation is in a spiritual or sometimes a  47 shamanistic idiom.  From an anthropological point of 15324  1 view it's very striking that there is this  2 anticipating of newcomers, and it's not found  3 exclusively in the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area.  In many  4 parts of northern Canada there are stories about the  5 stories that were told in which the coming of the  6 whites was predicted, and this predicting, I suspect,  7 in these cultures is something to do with a power, the  8 wish to have a relationship to the new that is not  9 impotent.  Knowledge in these cultures is closely  10 connected with power, and the anticipation is a way of  11 having knowledge before the potential difficulties of  12 the new arrivals.  Something of that kind could be  13 said generally about these sorts of stories.  14 Q   Okay.  Could you turn to tab 15 of document book 2?  15 Open to the first page.  Could you explain to his  16 lordship what the first several pages are?  17 A  Well, this is an example -- oh, the first several  18 pages.  19 Q   The first several pages, yes.  20 A   This is Barbeau's shorthand, which he wrote down his  21 interviews as he was doing them, I imagine, and then  22 there follows a typed-up version in ordinary  23 orthography, in readable English of the shorthand  24 interview.  25 Q   And if you could turn to the first page of the  26 typescript, that is the very beginning of that, that  27 is the source of your statement at page 79 of your  28 report, "Nothing ever arrived without it being known  29 beforehand"?  30 A   Yes, that's the quote I give on page 79.  31 Q   What does that particular passage refer to?  Just sort  32 of scan it and --  33 A   This is anticipation of the gun, rumours about the gun  34 and the gun's extraordinary powers.  It indicates a  35 possibility that a gun killed by magic, and then it  36 goes on to describe the attempt to go and visit the  37 Nass, where they had heard there was a gun.  38 Q   Could you now turn to page 82?  39 A   Just before you go on, one of the most important  40 things in here is the description of the gun being  41 used in a feast as, I would think, a sort of putative  42 nax nok.  The gun is used in relation to the power of  43 singing, and there's a rather humorous account here of  44 the Kisgagas people making the mistake of choosing a  45 song that had what would musically be called a caesura  46 in them, breaks in the music, and unfortunately the  47 gun going off during a break and, therefore, the 15325  1 people being extremely alarmed by the very loud noise,  2 and this is compared with the more effective use of  3 song at another feast in another community where there  4 is no break in the singing and, therefore, the power  5 of the song is able to overcome the power of the noise  6 of the gun.  7 THE COURT:  Probably the 1812 overture the first time it was  8 played.  9 THE WITNESS:  Incorporated straight in.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  If not Aida.  11 MR. JACKSON:  12 Q   If you could turn to page 82 of your report, the very  13 bottom of the page, you say:  14  15 "Like the Gitksan premonitions already  16 quoted, accounts of Biinii's," that's  17 B-i-i-n-i-i-'-s, "visits to the sky and the  18 songs and information he received there, all  19 point to the way in which the coming of the  20 white man was understood in terms of  21 spirituality and power.  If the new is going  22 to dominate, this will be so, at least on  23 Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en accounts, by virtue  24 of extraordinary spiritual effectiveness.  25 The existing cultural system believes it can  26 minimize the damage or gain benefit from the  27 new by incorporating its songs, metaphysical  28 notions, dances and material goods into the  29 existing systems of spiritual and socio-  30 spiritual expression."  31  32 That is your opinion based upon your review of the  33 Barbeau-Beynon material?  34 A   Yes.  In the case of the Biinii stories though there  35 are many present-day accounts of the Biinii events  36 which add to the Barbeau-Beynon archive.  I think it's  37 important to say here that what the Gitksan are doing  38 with the actual gun in the feast Biinii in a way is  39 doing with things he encounters in dreams.  He gains  40 power over things by knowing them or gains power from  41 things by knowing them and in his case he knows Jesus  42 or a man in the sky who has a son.  Presumably one can  43 translate these as God and Jesus.  Biinii, of course,  44 doesn't call them that in the stories.  And he  45 encounters in his dreams some of the goods that are  46 going to come, windows, boats, and such like things.  47 Horses figure prominently in Biinii's dreams.  By 15326  1 encountering them he knows them, by knowing them he  2 has power from them and to some extent over them, so  3 they become items within his system of knowledge and  4 authority.  Excuse me.  5 Q   You referred, in dealing with the guns, the way in  6 which it was used in the context of a nax nok, and at  7 your report -- in your report at page 83 you give that  8 example.  Could you also now turn to tab 16 of book 2,  9 and on page -- if your lordship could turn to the  10 typewritten script of what is 90.13 of the archive,  11 and if you could turn to page 2 of that, Mr. Brody.  12 About a third of the way down the page you see the  13 sentence, "Sqatin's daughter..."?  14 A   Yes, I see it.  15 Q   Could you start reading from there to the -- it's  16 S-q-a-t-i-n-'-s, Madam Reporter.  17 A  Well, tell me when to stop.  18  19 "Sqatin's daughter was living with this white  20 man, as her husband, and for a present this  21 white man brought his father-in-law sqatin a  22 concertina, (accordeon).  Sqatin was very  23 pleased with it and he thought:  -Now I  24 shall use this for my naxnoq.  So he did it  25 away until the right occasion..."  26  27 I imagine it's:  "So he hid it away until the right  28 occasion should come."  29  30 "When Sqatin came in at the feast he was all  31 dressed up with a mask and the guests were  32 all sitting around and in his hands he had  33 this which they thought was a little box.  34 They did not know what it was.  And he  35 pulled it to and fro, and made different  36 sounds, some very high,"  37  38 then we turn the page,  39  40 "and some very low.  The guests were  41 dumbfounded with surprise.  They had never  42 heard a naxnoq so wonderful."  43  44 Q   Yes, that's I think as far as you have to read.  That  45 is, I take it, an example of what you were referring  46 to in your previous answer in relation to  47 spirituality? 15327  1 A   Yes, the concertina becomes an item in the power play,  2 so to speak, of the feast system, in the magic of the  3 feast system.  4 Q   If I can refer you to page 84, where perhaps that  5 thought it more clearly expressed.  My lord, the  6 middle of the page, where Mr. Brody says:  7  8 "On the basis of these accounts we can deduce  9 that the advantages of white material  10 products lay first in their source of power  11 in the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en sense of the  12 term:  their potential as nax nok at the  13 feast, and the way in which they enhanced  14 the prestige of a chief into whose  15 possession they had come."  16  17 And that is your opinion?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   At the bottom of page 84, the last paragraph, you say:  20  21 "When white individuals reached Gitksan  22 villages, they were treated with immense  23 caution..."  24  25 And if you could turn the page, my lord, to page 85,  26 in that paragraph near the bottom of the page starting  27 "Mary Johnson" you say:  28  29 "Mary Johnson recounted descriptions she  30 heard from her grandmother of the first  31 whites in their territory.  They were  32 carrying what looked like bunches of old  33 rope, and were taken to be monsters.  But  34 the 'monsters' were invited in and fed."  35  36 Is that based upon your film interview with Mary  37 Johnson?  38 A   Yes.  Though it's a story that Mary Johnson told me on  39 several occasions, the time I recorded it was when we  40 were filming her.  41 MR. JACKSON:  And that is tab 14 of the first book of documents,  42 my lord, which I'd like to have marked as the next  43 exhibit.  44 THE COURT:  This is already 990-14.  45 THE REGISTRAR:  No, we didn't mark it yesterday.  He spoke to  46 it, but we didn't mark it.  47 THE COURT:  Oh, I marked it. 1  MR.  2  THE  3  THE  4  5  6  7  MR.  8  9  THE  10  MR.  11  12  13  MR.  14  15  THE  16  MR.  17  18  19  THE  20  THE  21  MR.  22  23  24  THE  25  MR.  26  27  THE  28  THE  29  THE  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  MR.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  15328  GOLDIE:  With the usual objections.  COURT:  It may be marked now.  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 990-14.  (EXHIBIT 990-14 - Tab 14 - Book 1, Mary Johnson Interview)  JACKSON:  Your lordship may recall Mary Johnson giving  evidence in this court in relation to the same matter.  COURT:  Yes.  JACKSON:  For your lordship's reference, that is volume 13  at page 815, those halcyon days before we had reached  four digits in the transcript.  GOLDIE:  And your lordship has my submission that that's the  only evidence which is available.  COURT:  Yes.  JACKSON:  At this stage perhaps, my lord, it ought to be --  we ought to reserve a number for volume 2 of the book  of documents.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  What's the next number?  REGISTRAR:  The next number is 992, my lord.  JACKSON:  And could tab 15 of book 2 be marked as the next  exhibit?  It's the one Mr. Brody referred to in  relation to guns.  COURT:  Yes.  JACKSON:  And tab 16, which is the material Mr. Brody just  read from, 90.13.  COURT:  Yes.  REGISTRAR:  That will be 992-15 and 992-16?  COURT:  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 992-15 - Tab 15 ■  Barbeau-Beynon Interview)  (EXHIBIT 992-16 - Tab 16 ■  Barbeau-Beynon Interview)  Book 2 (Archival)  Book 2 (Archival)  JACKSON:  If you could again continue, my lord, page 85 of  the opinion report.  Mr. Brody, the bottom of page 85,  the last paragraph, you say:  "The Barbeau-Beynon interviews give the  impression that towards the end of the  nineteenth century concern with the  supernatural significance and powers of the  newcomers is pushed somewhat into the  background:  of primary concern for this  period are recollections of conflict with 15329  1 whites.  Three episodes figure prominently -  2 the events known to historians as the  3 burning of Kitseguecla, the Youmans murder  4 and the Skeena uprising or Kitwancool Jim."  5  6 Turning first to the burning of Kitsegukla,  7 K-i-t-s-e-g-u-e-c-1-a, could you briefly describe what  8 happened in that incident as you have reviewed it in  9 Barbeau-Beynon?  10 MR. GOLDIE:  The source of what he's going to say now is  11 Barbeau-Beynon?  12 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, my lord.  13 THE WITNESS:  Not exclusively.  There's also again conversations  14 with people about this event.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'm going to ask, my lord, with some  16 particularity that the sources be identified.  17 MR. JACKSON:  Well, perhaps, my lord —  18 THE COURT:  What is the date of the burning of Kitsegukla?  19 THE WITNESS:  I just noticed, my lord, that it's not on there.  20 I think it's 1874, but I'll check in the break on the  21 actual dates.  These events are from the 1870s and  22 1880s.  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  2 4 MR. JACKSON:  25       Q   Could you perhaps continue to describe the events as  2 6 you understand them?  27 A  All the people of Kitsegukla were away from their  28 village when it seems by accident the village burned  29 down.  A party of whites, according to the account,  30 had put ashore there and had built a fire in the  31 village, and some sparks from the fire had spread on  32 to the timber of the houses or they had failed to  33 extinguish the fire properly -- I think there were two  34 versions of this -- and as a result the village of  35 Kitsegukla burned to the ground.  The people were  36 evidently extremely upset and expected that some  37 compensation would be made, some restitution.  When  38 they heard nothing from those they held responsible,  39 and it is to be emphasized here that in the Gitksan  40 world view there is no such thing as an accident,  41 there must be some clearly responsible party who had  42 to compensate them for the loss and make reparations  43 in terms of the dignity of the people of Kitsegukla.  44 That's how they view it and viewed it.  When they  45 heard nothing, they blockaded the Skeena River, that  46 is to say, they prevented a trading boat from coming  47 up the river.  Response to this blockading of the 15330  1 river was the dispatching of a boat to the mouth of  2 the Skeena, some kind of a warship it's referred to  3 as, and then the people of Kitsegukla are summoned or  4 invited to go to meet with the whites on the boat, and  5 there there is some kind of a hearing into the matter,  6 which is described in the accounts.  7 Q   Could you refer to tab 2 of document book 2, which is  8 63.1 in the archive, and could you turn to page 2 of  9 the typewritten script?  Could you read the first full  10 paragraph beginning with, "The personal effects..."?  11 A  12 "The personal effects of the people were  13 saved because it was the custom of the  14 people to put and cache away to other camps  15 personal effects the village massed.  But  16 all that was left in the houses were the  17 dancing costumes and the costumes used in  18 the hallait dances."  19  20 MR. JACKSON:  If you could just stop there for a moment.  My  21 lord, I would just refer your lordship to the fact  22 that Olive Ryan, Gwaans, G-w-a-a-n-s, in the course of  23 her evidence showed your lordship Hanamuxw's regalia,  24 which had survived the fire of Kitsegukla.  That's  25 H-a-n-a-m-u-k-w-s.  26 If you can turn back to page 1 of the document,  27 the informant there is indicated to be Mark Wiget.  28 Now, Mark Wiget, my lord — Exhibit 853, tab 38,  29 indicates that Mark Wiget was born in 1846 and died in  30 1926.  I'm not going to ask Mr. Brody to do the  31 arithmetic.  My friend, Mr. Grant, has helped me here.  32 Which indicates that in 1924, when this was taken  33 down, he was 78 years old.  If you could now go back  34 to the page -- turn to page 3 of the document, Mr.  35 Brody, and I'm going to read some passages to you, and  36 perhaps when I finish, you could indicate what you  37 make of them as an anthropologist.  Starting from the  38 second sentence, my lord:  39  40 "The government wanted to see the people at  41 Matlabetla."  42  43 M-a-t-1-a — I think that is k-e-t-1-a.  44 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, where are you on tab 2?  45 MR. JACKSON:  Tab 2, my lord, page 3.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm prepared to accept that it's Metlakatla, but  47 I'm not prepared to read "b" as "k." 15331  1 MR. JACKSON:  Second sentence, my lord, "The government wanted  2 to see the people at Matlabetla," spelt with a "b."  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 MR. JACKSON:  5 "The government will take under consideration  6 the burning of your village as they are very  7 sorry to hear of this.  So Brown took  8 Sa'oyamx   and M  o   1   a   x   a  n   and  9 haxpagwtu and Guxsan," G-u-x-s-a-n.  10 "They went down in their own canoe."  11  12 And then if -- just skipping some lines, my lord, in  13 the next paragraph.  Perhaps I should just keep  14 reading.  15  16 "...all the people of Gitsegukla are invited  17 to come to Matla with the exception of the  18 man who had attempted to shoot Brown.  After  19 we had gone two days to Metlak a ship came  20 there.  And it was on this ship that the  21 Government was going to have the trial.  22 When the people all came out on board of  23 the ship, they were all placed on one side  24 of the arm and the white people on the other  25 side."  26  27 And then dropping down towards the end of the page, my  28 lord, if you have the sentence, "The trial lasted one  2 9 full day."  3 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  31 MR. JACKSON:  32  33 "The trial lasted one full day.  And then the  34 government man in the court said to the  35 Gitsegukla people:  -you must stop this now,  36 you must not do this anymore.  If the people  37 take advantage of you anymore, I want you to  38 tell me and I will help you out.  39 And after the court was over, food was  40 distributed to all the people of Gitsegukla  41 on the ship.  And tobacco and clay pipes  42 were distributed to the people.  43 Then Mr. Duncan said to the people:  44 -the men of the men of war will show you the  45 weapons they have.  They are going to shoot  46 a cannon off."  47 15332  1 And then dropping down to the last four lines of that  2 page, my lord:  3  4 "...Duncan said the father of the white man  5 were there to be entertained."  6  7 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry, where are you?  Yes.  Thank you.  I've  8 got it.  9 MR. JACKSON:  10  11 "Duncan said the father of the white man were  12 there to be entertained.  Do you think of  13 anything to entertain them?  Stax said:  14 -We shall dance and sing for their  15 entertainment.  And they started to sing a  16 Hagwelgate," H-a-g-w-e-1-g-a-t-e, "song.  17 And Stax," that's S-t-a-x, "danced while all  18 the people the Gitsegukla sang."  19  20 And then in the very last paragraph:  21  22 "The next day the officers" -- it says  23 "dame," but I take it that means came --  24 "and distributed money among us.  The  25 foremost chief got $90. some got $80.  Four  26 got $90. and some $70. and $60.  This was to  27 assist the people to purchase nails and  28 tools."  29  30 And Stax, it's indicated at the very last line, my  31 lord, is Haxpagwtu.  32 If you could also refer, Mr. Brody, to tab 3.  Tab  33 3, I think it gives us our -- the answer to our  34 question of when the fire took place.  This appears to  35 be another account of the burning of Kitsegukla.  It  36 says, "The Gitsegukla fire of 1871."  If you could  37 turn to page 4 of that document, about two thirds of  38 the way down, the sentence beginning, "Then the  39 officer who..."  Do you have that?  Do you have that,  40 my lord?  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 MR. JACKSON:  43 Q  44 "Then the officer who presented it the trial  45 told the Gitsegukla and gave them a proper  46 singing:  -If anyone should molest you  47 people call upon me and I shall stand up for 15333  1 your rights."  2  3 In light of those passages I have read, what is your  4 opinion as an anthropologist on the significance of  5 the events on board the ship?  6 A   It would seem to me to meet the people's requirements,  7 the requirements within Gitksan culture for  8 acknowledgment of the offence, compensation for the  9 offence, and the securing of an accord lasting into  10 the future through the institutions that the Gitksan  11 believe in, that is to say, feast type events.  The  12 division of the people into their phratries, the  13 whites on one side, the Kitsegukla on the other.  The  14 sharing of power symbols.  The whites fire their gun,  15 their power.  The Gitksan sing their songs in which is  16 their power.  The payment of money by the hosts, who  17 are the whites, after all they invited the people to  18 come.  The hosts make a payment to the guests.  The  19 ordinary people are there, that is to say, not the  20 chiefs who are specifically identified.  They  21 constitute, it seems, as sort of witnesses here, but  22 everybody is paid compensation money, witnessing  23 money, and this is all done with entertainments and  24 affirmations of future mutual support, as it were,  25 affirmation of the terms of the peace that is now  26 brought into play.  2 7 MR. JACKSON:  At page —  28 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I wonder if my friend could assist me.  29 Which of the two accounts is my -- is the witness  30 relying upon in giving his opinion?  I say that  31 because there are quite significant differences  32 between the two, and it would help me to know which  33 one he's relying upon.  34 MR. JACKSON:  35 Q   Could you respond to that?  36 A   Yes, I'm trying to find a common ground between them.  37 I'm trying to see the elements that are shared between  38 the accounts and to try and use the accounts to get a  39 sense of how the event as a whole would have been  40 perceived within the culture at the time.  41 MR. JACKSON:  Okay.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I don't want there to be any mystery about  43 this, but one account says that the people didn't know  44 who did it and the other account says the people did.  45 MR. JACKSON:  Well, that's — my lord, Mr. Goldie can pursue  46 that in cross-examination.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  No, I'm trying to shorten things up.  I don't want THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  9 THE  10 MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30 THE  31 THE  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  15334  to pursue it in cross-examination.  I want to know  what the source is now.  COURT:  Well, the witness knows that.  If he can't give it  now, he'll be asked about it later.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  JACKSON:  At the bottom of page 86, my lord.  GOLDIE:  I take it my friend is not going to comply with my  request.  COURT:  Apparently not.  JACKSON:  Q   At the bottom of page 86, Mr. Brody, you say:  "Here, in accordance with Gitksan law, was a  clear settlement of a dispute:  witnessed,  accompanied by demonstrations of power or  nax nok, payments and agreement that in  future there would be alliance instead of  discord."  And that is your opinion as you have more fully  expressed it in this court?  Yes.  If you could turn to page 87 of your report, the  second of the -- these triumvirate of episodes you  refer to as the Youmans' murder.  Could you again  briefly describe the events?  Once again, I'm embarrassed by the absence of the  date, my lord.  I'll establish it from the official  historical record, but it's around 1880, I believe.  COURT:  All right.  WITNESS:  Youmans was a trader based at Hazelton who had a  reputation for risking high water with his freight  canoes.  On this particular occasion he's recorded as  having perceived a need for re-supplying his trading  post, put together a crew of Gitksan boatmen, went  down the river to re-provision, and on the way back  up, passing through difficult water, the Gitksan  boatmen were wading when one of them was swept away  down the river and drowned.  Youmans decided to  proceed on foot to Hazelton in deciding the boat  couldn't be got through the water at this time and  left his Indian crew at probably Kitselas Canyon.  When he got to Hazelton, he did not tell anybody that  there had been a drowning, but rumour reached the  village, and the father of the boy who was drowned  heard that his son had indeed been drowned in the  river and was apparently enraged and went to Youmans,  A  Q  A 15335  1 in one account, and demanded some kind of  2 compensation/explanation.  When --  3 MR. JACKSON:  Okay.  Perhaps I can just stop you at that point,  4 and could you refer to tab 12, which is 90.2 in the  5 archive, and page 2 of the English transcription?  Do  6 you have that, my lord?  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. JACKSON:  9 Q   Mr. Brody, if you would go about two thirds of the way  10 down the page, and I think I -- this account is at the  11 same point you have just related, where it says, "Then  12 the father at once went to Yoman..."  Do you have  13 that?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Could you read from there over to the next page?  16 A  17 "Then the father at once went to Yoman:  -why  18 didn't you tell me that my boy was drowned  19 when I asked you?  Yoman replied in a very  20 gruff manner:  -how did I know your boy was  21 drowned?  I don't know anything about your  22 boy but right what I hear.  So the Indian  23 refused to go.  So he kicked him and shoved  24 him out of the store.  The Indian returned  25 back to the village muttering as he went  26 along:  -he should die, he should go with my  27 son, my son shall not die alone.  Then his  28 brother said to him" -- which I assume  29 refers to the father's brother -- "said to  30 him:  -if I go down and if I get him to give  31 us enough tops and blankets for a funeral  32 feast, we won't harm him.  That was a thing  33 that Mr. Hankin had very often to do, it  34 saved lots of trouble and kept peace with  35 the Indians whom the trade naturally  36 depended upon.  So the brother went down to  37 Yoman and told him of his intention and  38 misery.  But Yoman flatly refused and said  39 it was a silly way that Mr. Hankin had acted  40 foolishly, and if he wished to pay for every  41 Indian that died, he was not going to.  And  42 if they wanted tobacco and blankets, he was  43 there to sell it to them, and not to give it  44 to them."  45  46 Q   That's as far as I think you have to read, Mr. Brody.  47 My question to you is the same question I asked you 15336  1 after we went through the Barbeau-Beynon in relation  2 to Kitsegukla.  As an anthropologist what do you make  3 of that?  4 A  Well, the Gitksan law requires acknowledgment and  5 compensation, and here it's being asked for, and I  6 think probably the thing that's most interesting to me  7 in this passage is reference to Hankin having done it  8 regularly, having been the habit in the area to follow  9 the Gitksan law of compensation.  Youmans refuses to  10 pay compensation with consequences that we have not  11 yet described.  12 Q   And what were those consequences?  13 A   The father of the dead boy took it upon himself to  14 kill Youmans, stabbed him in the neck according to the  15 account.  16 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, that would be a convenient point to take  17 the morning break.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19 MR. JACKSON:  If it pleases your lordship.  2 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court will recess.  22  23 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15 A.M.)  24  25 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  26 a true and accurate transcript of the  27 proceedings herein to the best of my  28 skill and ability.  29  30  31  32 Leanna Smith  33 Official Reporter  34 United Reporting Service Ltd.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 15337  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER SHORT RECESS)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Jackson.  5 MR. JACKSON:  I am advised by Madam Registrar that it would make  6 life considerably easier for her if we marked document  7 book two as 992 and have the tabs marked sequentially.  8 Before we do that, perhaps I could just --  9 THE COURT:  I have already done that with tabs 15 and 16.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  I assume -- well, let me put it this way, that I  11 have no objection to marking these documents as a  12 group right now.  They are all archival documents, and  13 we can take it that they are 992, 1 to 48 as far as I  14 am concerned.  15 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  16 MR. JACKSON:  That's fine, My Lord.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  992, tabs 1 to 48, is it?  Yes.  18  19 (EXHIBIT NO. 992 - TABS 1 TO 48 - ARCHIVAL  2 0 DOCUMENTS)  21  22 MR. GOLDIE:  I am assuming that these are all Barbeau Beynon  2 3 documents.  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  What I would say generically are archival  2 6 documents.  27 THE COURT:  If you find that they aren't, then the matter will  2 8 be spoken to.  Thank you.  Do we have the same  29 situation with the other book?  30 MR. GOLDIE:  I think the other one is in a slightly different  31 position, My Lord.  32 MR. JACKSON:  I have marked some of the tabs, My Lord.  I may  33 ultimately suggest --  34 THE COURT:  You are not tendering the other book?  35 MR. JACKSON:  No, I am not.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  37 MR. JACKSON:  38 Q   Mr. Brody, we got to the point before the break where  39 you dealt with the Youmans' matter.  The third  40 episode --  41 THE COURT:  Did we get a date for Mr. Youmans' unfortunate  42 demise?  43 THE WITNESS:  My Lord, I'm afraid I didn't.  I made a look and I  44 couldn't find one, but I will get one over the lunch  45 break.  46 THE COURT:  Well, on page — the first page of tab 12 there is a  47 mention that he says, "I suppose about 50 years ago", 15338  1 and this was in --  2 THE WITNESS:  1923, I think.  I know, My Lord, that the  3 Kitsegukla burning was the early 1870's, and Youmans  4 was around 1880, and the third episode, I know for  5 sure, is 1888.  But I'll get clear dates.  I am  6 reluctant to rely on the dates given in the Barbeau  7 Beynon archive.  I note sometimes there are reasons  8 for thinking they are inaccurate.  9 MR. JACKSON:  10 Q   On that point, Mr. Brody, you said there are reasons  11 to think that Barbeau Beynon are inaccurate.  What are  12 you referring to there?  13 A   Just the dates that are jotted alongside the informant  14 note at the top of the page, nothing else.  15 Q   The third incident which you referred to as -- and I  16 believe it's referred to in the literature, is the  17 Skeena uprising or Kitwancool Jim.  You summarize the  18 contours of that at the bottom of page 87, and perhaps  19 I can just read that, and then we'll go to the Barbeau  20 Beynon by itself.  At the bottom of page 87, My Lord.  21  22 "When Gamixuxw"  23  24 G-a-m-i-x-u-x-w  25  26 "Of Kitwancool lost a favourite child, his  2 7 wife, Hanamuxw,"  28  29 H-a-n-a-m-u-x-w  30  31 "blamed her uncle, Niitsxw,"  32  33 N-i-i-t-s-x-w.  34  35 "who had disputed the boy's right to his seat  36 in the feast hall.  Hanamuxw had already lost  37 three children in a recent measles epidemic.  38 Gamixuxw known to the whites as Jim, killed  39 Niitsxw.  A posse of white police moved into  40 the area; there was fear among the whites that  41 a spite of violence was about to flow through  42 the area.  The white police went to Kitwancool  43 and located Gamixuxw who, on seeing them, ran  44 over a low rise in the ground, soldiers shot  45 him in the back, and he soon died."  46  47 If you could refer to tab 9 of the Barbeau Beynon 15339  1 archive, and if you could turn to page 3.  And about  2 halfway -- sort of halfway down the page there is a  3 line that begins "Nitux died".  And am I right in  4 thinking that relates to the killing which you have  5 referred to on page 87 that Gamixuxw killed Niitsxw?  6 A   Yes, that's right.  7 Q   Could you read on from there.  8 A  9 "Then all"  10  11 I am going to say Niitsxw, though in fact it says  12 N-i-t-u-x.  Here is how it is spelt.  13  14 "Then all Nitux family, the men of his  15 household got together and they were going all  16 in a band of Gitwintkul and asked for a ransom  17 for Jim's family.  They had to pay Ksisux ..."  18  19 Which is spelt here as K-s-i-s-u-x.  20  21 "... blood or money.  22 They arrived in Gitwintkul but they did not get  23 into the house.  They stood below the house and  24 they called to the murderer outside to talk to  25 him.  And this is the way that they presented  26 the blood money.  When the murderer came out,  27 he was dressed in a grizzly's skin and in the  28 mouth he built a copper hazetsu ..."  29  30 H-a-z-e-t-s-u.  31  32 "... and he came down on all fours like a  33 grizzly bear.  This meant that he was going to  34 pay-  And they brought out and behind him the  35 people carried the most valuable thing they  36 had, blankets, coats and guns and moosehides.  37 Then after the payment was made, it was all  38 over.  There was peace among themselves.  39 (There was no need of any assistance from the  40 outside warriors)."  41  42  43 Q   If you could just stop there for a moment, Mr. Brody.  44 Could you turn to page seven of that document.  And  45 the middle paragraph of that page, which says:  46  47 "Jim put on his grandfather's crest." 15340  1  2 Would I be correct in concluding that this  3 paragraph is a further explanation of what you have  4 just stated?  Perhaps you could read it.  I think that  5 will make it --  6 A   Read it aloud?  7 Q   Read it aloud.  8 A  9  10 "Jim put on his grandfather's crest ..."  11  12 And there is handwritten note here, Ayuks,  13 A-y-u-k-s, Gitksan word.  14  15 "... and when he came down on all four like  16 that he was humbling himself begging for mercy.  17 It was that when he was like that, all the  18 descendants of his grandfather will pay.  And  19 then they are all glad when they see him coming  20 with the skin on the back to see that he will  21 pay and there will be peace.  And there is no  22 one afraid after this ransom is paid.  All of  23 Jim's family and the whole village came to  24 Gitsegukla and made a feast, and they were all  25 happy.  No one was scared, 'Wiget of Gisghhast  26 was the chief.  He danced the peace dance and  27 while he was dancing the blow went down on the  28 visitor and no one could find after that."  29  30 And he says "the white daughter".  I think he must  31 mean "the white down".  32  33 "The white down meant peace."  34  35 Q   If you could now --  36 A  And I would say I think that they'd blow white down,  37 whereas the blow went down.  I imagine that is a  38 mistranscription there.  39 Q   And if you could -- perhaps at this point you could  40 comment, as it were, on what has happened to date, in  41 terms of the significance you would draw from that as  42 an anthropologist.  43 A  Well, this is a very striking account of Gitksan ways  44 of dealing with a murder through a clear  45 acknowledgement of responsibility by the person  46 responsible, offering of compensation by the members  47 of his House, acceptance of that compensation, and the 15341  1 finalizing of the agreement with the peace-making  2 feast.  3 Q   If you could turn back to page 4 of the document.  The  4 last thing you read in that page was:  5  6 "There was no need of any assistance from the  7 outside warriors."  8  9 And perhaps you could read on from that point.  10 It's 5 lines down.  11 A  12 "When they arrived with the body in Gitsegukla  13 ..."  14  15 And it indicates a turning of the original page.  16  17 "... there was a white man living there, Mr.  18 Washburn.  He went over and undressed the  19 corpse and took the clothes off and took them  20 to Victoria as his evidence, then he was made  21 policeman, and a guide and speaker for the  22 police.  (He was placed in charge of the posse  23 that went out).  The news was brought out to  24 the name that the posse had arrived to the Nass  25 at the mouth of the river.  The news was  26 brought to Jim.  He at once packed up and ran  27 away.  He went towards the Nass River.  And he  28 stayed there the sint' summer."  29  30 Q   If you could just stop there.  Reading that reference  31 there to posse, is that the reference which you would  32 have referred to?  You recall Mr. Goldie when he read  33 out one of the documents, in terms of your  34 qualifications, the word "posse" was used?  35 A   I am sure the word "posse" in that story comes from  36 this account.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jackson.  3 8 MR. JACKSON:  39 Q   If you could just miss a few lines and pick up the  40 story.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, no, please read on.  42 MR. JACKSON:  43 Q   If you could, Mr. Brody, just go down to "Then  44 Loring".  4 5 A   I have you.  46  47 "Then Loring wrote a letter ..." 15342  1  2 MR. GOLDIE:  I am sorry, My Lord, I think it is essential.  3 THE COURT:  I have read it.  4 MR. JACKSON:  I have no objection.  I am trying to expedite  5 matters.  Perhaps -- just read on.  6 A  7 "The policeman by this time had arrived in  8 Hazelton.  He thinks there were two canoe loads  9 (Mrs. Cox said that there were thirty of them).  10 Mr. Loring was the chief of police.  And they  11 send messengers to Kitwancool saying Jim to  12 come to town.  Then Loring wrote a letter to  13 the murderer and gave it to his wife and told  14 her to deliver it to her husband, and this she  15 did and Jim came to Gitwongex."  16  17 Presumably Kitwanga is meant there.  18  19 "The letter read to Jim that no harm would come  20 to him that the white man's law would respect  21 the Indian law but he had to go through the  22 trial but that no harm would happen to him.  23 And under these conditions he came to them, but  24 what must have been a mistake Jim was shot.  He  25 was in the house, niganye:"  26  27        N-i-g-a-n-y-e.  28  29 "over the walk (bear) house at Gitwaage.  The  30 policemen were in the missionaries house and  31 Sandilgon,"  32  33 Translated as the water dam of beaver.  34  35 "And it was just at dawn.  The police walked  36 down at the Gitwange from Sandilgon.  And there  37 was a runner, an Indian who went to Jim and  38 said: - all the policemen surround the house.  39 And Jim got up and dressed himself and he armed  40 himself with a pistol.  When the policeman  41 opened the door, and the chief of police came  42 in, Loring, Jim gave one bound and was out of  43 the door.  And he ran around at the back of the  44 house and the policemen chased him.  When he  45 saw that he was chased, he stood and one of the  46 policemen shot him as he stood.  That was what  47 caused his death." 15343  1  2 Q   If you could just stop there and just go over the  3 page, and to page 6, and pick up at "The reason for  4 ..."  My Lord, I am not seeking to --  5 THE COURT:  I can read this.  6 MR. JACKSON:  7 Q   "The reason for ..."  8 A  9 "The reason for these hard feelings (was) that  10 Jim was a chief's son.  He was a head man.  11 (If) he was white he would (be) called a  12 gentleman Tkuwilksitu,"  13  14 Translated as chief of chief.  And it's  15 T-k-u-w-i-1-k-s-i-t-u.  16  17 "And that was the reason of superior rank.  The  18 form can be used on a woman also.  His chest  19 was all tatooed, a smay,"  20  21 And that's translated here as bear.  22  23 "When Loring saw the chest and he said: -  This  24 was  a chief; it too bad he died the death he  25 has died.  And the constables were surprised  26 when they saw that.  And it is because he was a  27 chief that the bad feeling still exist for him.  2 8 The whole thing would have blown over and the  29 shame of his death might have been washed away  30 if the government had paid something, no matter  31 how small, if they had recognized him being a  32 chief.  It was not the value of the ransom but  33 to take away the shame of the death."  34  35  36 Q   That's as far as -- I think you have to read.  Again,  37 as an anthropologist could you comment on the  38 significance of that.  39 A   It would seem we are seeing more of the Gitksan system  40 at work and the laws that govern the regulation of  41 murder through compensation, and is here an indication  42 also of how the degree of compensation, the degree of  43 shame is related to other factors in the culture.  44 It's all part of the set of insights, as it were, the  45 geography of the culture that can be gained by virtue  46 of having an account of this kind.  47 Q   If you could turn to page 88 of your report, the top 15344  1 of the page, the first paragraph.  You say, in  2 relation to this course of events:  3  4 "To the Gitksan responsibility for Gamixuxw's  5 death was plain.  Their law required that the  6 whites acknowledge their role and make suitable  7 restitution.  The chiefs of the area sought  8 this for a long time.  In effect, the Gitksan  9 chiefs were offering a peace, a proper  10 accommodation.  As the informants point out,  11 this was repeatedly misunderstood, and offers  12 of peace and friendship were rejected.  13 Accountants of the Kitwancool Jim events  14 include descriptions of an attempt by the  15 people to arrange a settlement hearing at  16 Kitwancool."  17  18 Could you now refer to tab 4 of the archive,  19 volume two.  That's 68.6.  And could you read that  20 page.  21 A   Including the identification at the top?  22 Q   Yes.  23 A   It's marked "B-F-68.6, collection Marius Barbeau, Mrs.  24 Cox, Hazelton, 1923."  25  26 "Mr. Vowell's visit at Gitwintkul, the Indians  27 had a large feast House with a large smoke  28 house with a roof.  It did not have a (board)  29 floor, but a floor of beautiful gravel from the  30 beach and it had been reopened.  And at the 4  31 corners of the house they had carved bears  32 sitting up with tongues protruding, about 4  33 feet high.  At the rear of the house they had  34 two chairs arranged, one for Vowell and one for  35 Loring the Indian Agent."  36  37 I would like to comment on that as we go there.  38 Loring became Indian agent in 1889 and was working as  39 a policeman in 1888.  So this is a -- gives us the  40 date of this, as at least 1889.  41  42 "And besides the chairs was a wooden figure in  43 a sitting position of a man, its face was  44 painted white or chalked, and the only clothing  45 he had on was a white shirt.  And on the left  46 side was a round hole burnt in the shirt, and  47 around it there was blood and the same mar' on 15345  1 the back of the shirt.  And in one hand, a  2 wooden hand extended out was a bullet and in  3 the other hand it held the gun.  P. 15:  And  4 this figure was supposed to be Jim.  And the  5 lap of the figure was a wooden tray, and on  6 this board was a letter written to the  7 government asking for a hundred dollars and a  8 tombstone for Jim.  The $100.  Was to atone for  9 the death.  Which they had never received yet.  10 If it had been given all feeling would pass  11 over this affair.  It would have been a peace  12 offering.  It was Mr. Green an excitable  13 Irishman who shot him."  14  15 Q   I was going to stop you, Mr. Brody, before we got to  16 that last line.  And that is the source of your  17 statement at page 88, that accounts of the Kitwancool  18 Jim events include descriptions of an attempt by the  19 people to arrange a settlement hearing of Kitwancool?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   If you could turn to page 89 of your report.  And you  22 say, "These three major encounters ..." middle  23 paragraph, My Lord.  24  25 "Kitseguecla burning, Youmans and Kitwancool  26 Jim - are full of implications.  Anyone  27 interested in the way Gitksan law was applied  28 to disputes, including those caused by white  29 frontiersmen, can gain considerable  30 understanding from the ways in which the events  31 were recounted to Barbeau in the 1920s.  But  32 three of the many implications are of special  33 relevance here.  First, the law was applied to  34 whites; second, its application was aimed at  35 peace and friendship upon mutually accepted  36 terms; and third, the whites failed to  37 comprehend or even respond, apart from a  38 seemingly condescending dismissal of the chiefs  39 and their law."  40  41 And is that the conclusion based upon your review  42 of these three incidents?  43 A   Yes.  In fact there are more descriptions of this  44 event in the Barbeau Beynon archive, and I am basing  45 what I say, therefore, on more than is just in the  46 tabs here.  That is, yes, a summary of my conclusions  47 in this matter. 1  MR  2  3  MR  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  MR  18  19  20  MR  21  15346  GOLDIE:  I should like produced the sources that he relies  upon.  JACKSON:  Q   The documents which are in volume 2, Mr. Brody, are  all the documents to which you have made specific  reference in chapters 9 and 10, and there are some  references in subsequent chapters, My Lord.  What we  have endeavored to do is to place in the document book  all the specific references.  Are there other Barbeau Beynon material which you  have reviewed in the course of doing your research?  A   Yes, I cite in my footnotes only those that go to  quotations or are the obvious foundation.  In fact I  would have been reading many others, and in my notes  on the archive would have been noting others too.  So  the basis is more than is cited in the footnotes here.  GOLDIE:  Well, I would like identified, My Lord, the ones  that he relies upon.  Surely that's an easy thing to  do.  JACKSON:  I will endeavour to obtain that from my witness,  My Lord.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 3 MR. JACKSON:  24 Q   If you could turn, Mr. Brody, to page 96.  And the  25 first paragraph you say:  26  27 "Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people endured great  28 hardship as a result of the arrival of whites  29 near or in their territories.  Endemic European  30 diseases such as influenza, measles,  31 tuberculosis and smallpox were unknown, and  32 many narratives referred to the terrible nature  33 of these and other new illnesses.  Both Gitksan  34 and Wet'suwet'en societies found themselves  35 struggling against unprecedented, inexplicable  36 and - by in large - untreatable sicknesses."  37  38 The source of that is what, Mr. Brody?  39 A   The Barbeau Beynon archive is a very important source.  40 For me for that statement, because it provides some  41 direct -- comparatively direct insight into how these  42 sicknesses affected individuals and their families,  43 there was also the Mulhall book, which I think is  44 referred to in my notes, which goes into some of the  45 general nature of the spread of illnesses in the  46 southern part of the territories.  47 MR. JACKSON:    For my friend's benefit, My Lord, tabs 8, 9 and 15347  1 10 and 25 are the material which is referenced by Mr.  2 Brody in one of his footnotes.  3 THE COURT:  8, 9, 10 and —  4 MR. JACKSON:  25.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  6 MR. JACKSON:  7 Q   Mr. Brody, if you could turn to page 98, the second  8 paragraph you say:  9  10 "Established Indian authorities were obliged to  11 make some sense of, even if they could not  12 minimize, the terrible devastation that early  13 contact caused."  14  15 Could you explain that statement?  16 A   It's the job of the elders in Gitksan, Wet'suwet'en  17 society, and also but more importantly in this regard  18 the job of the Halayt or the Shaman to deal with  19 things that go wrong.  Dealing with things going wrong  20 has two facets.  On the one hand there is the  21 explaining of them, the knowing of them, and on the  22 other hand there is the remedying, the curing of them.  23 In Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en world views the gap between  24 knowing and dealing with this is perhaps narrower than  25 in the Euro-Canadian world view.  But nonetheless  26 these are tasks that are in the hands, as I say,  27 elders and especially Shamans.  28 Now, suddenly there are these sicknesses which  29 have never been seen before.  They are on an enormous  30 scale, and the Halayt, Shamans don't seem to have a  31 cure for them.  This presents a culture with a very  32 serious problem.  33 Q   If you could turn to page 99 of your opinion, at the  34 bottom of the page you say:  35  36 "A complete, plausible sounding explanation of  37 the disastrous epidemics was also offered by  38 some of the newcomers themselves.  Indeed,  39 these explanations for the most part came from  4 0 men who regarded themselves, and were seen by  41 other whites, as specialists on such matters.  42 Halayt of the mysterious and powerful white man  43 was the missionary.  And missionaries told the  44 people that they were dying because they did  45 not accept the ideas and rituals that only  46 they, the missionaries, could teach.  This  47 connection was advanced as a matter of course 15348  1 by the Oblates in the Carrier district, from  2 where it spread to the Wet'suwet'en - first  3 indirectly, but soon preached on the spot by  4 Father Morice.  5 Not only did missionaries announce the theory  6 that Indians died because they failed to become  7 Christians.  They also insisted that  8 Christianity offered eternal life."  9  10 Could you comment on that statement?  11 A  Well, there are probably two bits of background in  12 those statements that should be laid in here.  First  13 it's evident to the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en people that  14 white newcomers are not dying of these diseases, but  15 they -- the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en are.  So there seems  16 to be something that's on offer here, something that's  17 available in the white world that might help, some  18 power.  And as we were saying earlier,  19 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en accounts of the white world  20 tended to try and incorporate that world into the  21 power system of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  It  22 would seem, however, that there is something in that  23 system.  It would seem, I should say to the  24 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en-Shamans, there was something in  25 their system that couldn't deal with what was  26 happening.  And this meant the missionaries were in a  27 very strong position to have their views of power and  28 their sources of ill, their ideas of the world  29 accepted in at least this important regard.  And  30 missionaries, as I say here, made it clear to the  31 people that the people could overcome their problem if  32 they became Christians, simply by virtue of the fact  33 that Christianity offered eternal life, and they also  34 told people that -- on occasions told people that if  35 they did not accept Christianity, they would continue  36 to die in the way they had been dying from these new  37 illnesses.  38 Q   If you could turn to page 101 of your opinion report,  39 second paragraph:  40  41 "Arguments of this nature, along with the  42 Catholic charge for prayers, reveal the  43 intimate connection between sickness and  44 missionary work.  They also demonstrate the  45 great success that missionaries enjoyed among  46 the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  Their power, and  47 some of the methods they used to establish and 15349  maintain this power, are also well documented  in the Barbeau-Beynon archive."  In relation to the first sentence there, along  with the Catholic charge for prayer, what are you  referring to?  It's indicated in Barbeau Beynon archive that Catholic  missionaries, and in particular, I believe, Father  Morice has referred to in this regard, charged payment  for prayer.  In one striking passage it's indicated  that a person can have a long access to Jesus for $10,  and a short one for $5, and Morice's selling of  prayers is well documented also in Mulhall's book  about Morice.  Okay.  On that point, in the sentence before the  paragraph I just read, you in fact have a quote --  There it is, yes.  "Suppose a long time ..." -- you have "Suppose a long  time talk for Jesus that is $10.  Suppose not long,  that is $6."  Have you reviewed the original Barbeau  Beynon --  Yes, I have.  -- in that matter?  Perhaps I could make this  correction, My Lord.  That the original reads:  "Suppose a long time he took for Jesus, that is $10,  suppose not long, that is $5."  $6 in my opinion.  I seem to have undervalued for the  short prayer.  :  Should it be 5 or 6?  30 MR. JACKSON:  I am just looking at the original, My Lord.  There  31 is an ambiguity --  32 MR. GOLDIE:  What tab is it?  33 MR. JACKSON:  It's tab 22.  It's 190.27, about 4 lines up from  34 the bottom.  35 THE COURT:  On which page?  36 MR. JACKSON:  It's a one page document, My Lord.  37 THE WITNESS:  It's $5 in the Barbeau Beynon archive, My Lord,  and I have made a mistake in my opinion.  I have upped  the price to $6.  3N:  My Lord, also for your reference there is a further  documentation of this matter at tab 29 of volume 2.  Could you turn to tab 34, Mr. Brody.  I will in a moment.  My document book seems to be  falling apart.  Do you have that?  Yes.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  2 9 THE  COURT  38  39  4 0 MR.  JAC]  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A 15350  1 Q   It's 321.13.  Could you read from the second  2 paragraph.  "She had five step children."  3 A  4 "She had five step children.  She married a  5 which widower who was part Hagwelgate and when  6 his Hagwelgate father dies, he moved down to  7 Hazelton where his mother a Gitksan was.  And  8 with him was five children.  And his wife died  9 in Hagwelgate.  10 Almost every year, one of these children  11 would die.  They all had consumption.  Although  12 they did not all die of consumption, one of  13 them died of the broken hip.  She was the first  14 to die, her name was Christine.  15 And she ..."  16  17 Referring, I assume, to the mother,  18  19 "... had all the christening certificates in a  20 bag with a string around the bundle.  And she  21 came running over to me with a great  22 excitement: - Please show me which one is  23 Christine's heaven paper.  She is dying and she  24 must have her heaven paper.  25 So I quickly looked over them and picked  26 out Christine's card and handed it to her.  And  27 away she went as fast as she could.  And put  28 the paper in Christine's hand.  And in a few  29 minutes the little girl was dead clasping her  30 heaven paper.  And the old woman thought that  31 she had done her duty, that her little girl  32 would not be,"  33  34 It says shot.  I think it must mean "shut".  35  36 "Shut out of heaven."  37  38 Q   Thank you.  And that may be a case, My Lord, of Res  39 Ipsa Loquitor.  Do you have any comment you wish to  40 make on that, Mr. Brody?  41 A  Well, it illustrates the point I was making a few  42 minutes ago.  The people feel that their salvation,  43 somehow, is now in the hands of missionaries, and  44 their own Halayt are not able to provide some part of  45 the remedy that's required for the kinds of problems  46 that have come with epidemics or sicknesses that  47 afflicted these frontiers. 15351  1 Q   If you could turn to page 102 of your report, and on a  2 third of the way down.  And you are referring to the  3 power the missionaries had over the Gitksan.  You say:  4  5 "In both the upper Kispiox valley and  6 Meanskinish,"  7  8 M-E-A-N-S-K-I-N-I-S-H.  9  10 "The jail was placed alongside the church."  11  12 THE COURT:  Sorry, what page are you on?  13 MR. JACKSON:  102, My Lord.  14 THE COURT:  Whereabouts?  15 MR. JACKSON:  About a third of the way down the page, "In both  16 the upper Kispiox valley ..."  17 THE COURT:   Oh, yes.  Okay.  18 MR. JACKSON:   I will read that again.  19  20 "In both the upper Kispiox valley and the  21 Meanskinish, the jail was placed alongside the  22 church and was much used."  23  24 Could you refer to my tab 27, I think it is, My  25 Lord -- I don't believe that is the tab.  There is no  26 translation -- transcription.  27 A   There is a transcription at tab 28.  28 Q   I think it's 321.8 that I am referring to, which is --  29 my cross-referencing has gone awry here, My Lord, so  30 I'll perhaps leave that point.  Could you explain that  31 relationship, Mr. Brody, while I do some document  32 hunting?  33 A   The relationship between the church and the jail?  34 Q   Yes.  35 A   That's a nice broad question.  In the case of the  36 Kispiox Valley at Meanskinish, I think we are  37 referring here to Tomlinson, the missionary who  38 established Anglican communties -- I should say  39 actually low church communties in the technical sense  40 of that term, in which there was a great deal of  41 emphasis upon discipline.  And he consciously or  42 unconsciously symbolized his emphasis on discipline by  43 putting the jail next to the church -- he consciously  44 or unconsciously symbolized this discipline, this  45 emphasis on discipline by putting the jail next to the  46 church.  And he had very strict rules for the members  47 of his community. 15352  1 For example, the documents indicate that if a man  2 was caught smoking, he would get a week in the jail on  3 bread and water.  There is some comments in the  4 documents about his attitude towards flirting.  Anyone  5 caught flirting had a month in jail on bread and water  6 they say.  There are also indications in the documents  7 that he entered into -- well, I think I have answered  8 the question sufficiently.  9 Q   Unfortunately I haven't discovered the document.  10 A   I can talk about the relationship between church and  11 jail in Father Morice's community of the Wet'suwet'en,  12 if you like.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  Why not tell us Mr. Tomlinson was a good doctor.  14 THE WITNESS:   Yes, that's true.  And it should be said about  15 the missionaries.  They were good doctors.  16 MR. JACKSON:  17 Q   Mr. Brody, if you could turn to page 103, top  18 paragraph, you say:  19  20 "But in turning to or accepting Christianity,  21 the chiefs did not abandon their own  22 authority - rather, they sought to supplement  23 it and adapt some of its terms of reference.  24 They accepted new doctrines, the new theories  25 about the supernatural, and adopted new rituals  26 and observances.  But they did so in order to  27 maintain their authority - not to yield it up."  28  2 9 And then you quote from Mulhall, and then  30 beginning of the next paragraph you say:  31  32 "Thus the absorption of much Christianity was  33 into the fabric of the society that was seeking  34 to maintain its own authority."  35  36 Could you explain that?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, I have to take a formal objection to the  38 reliance of Mr. Brody on Mulhall, and it is an  39 objection of a formal character.  Mr. Mulhall, so far  40 as anybody knows, is not an expert.  In any event, it  41 is not generally acceptable for one expert to refer to  42 another or to rely upon another.  43 THE COURT:  Mr. Mulhall has written a recent book, has he?  44 MR. GOLDIE:  He has written a book, yes.  He's a school teacher  45 in Westmount, as I understand it, and for all I know  46 the book may be perfectly correct, but it is --  47 THE COURT:  Westmount, Montreal or Westmount, Vancouver? 15353  1 MR. GOLDIE:  Westmount, Quebec.  2 THE COURT:  Well, we won't hold that against him, will we?  3 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  It is just that he's, of course, not available  4 to be cross-examined.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, how serious a problem is that to you,  6 Mr. Jackson?  7 MR. JACKSON:  My Lord, none of the references any expert cited  8 in the bibliography are available for  9 cross-examination.  So I take it my friend's objection  10 goes to every reference, every expert cites, which  11 seems to be a rather sweeping objection.  12 THE COURT:  I thought, Mr. Goldie, the objection was to  13 references to living authors.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I thought it was assumed that he was living,  15 but it goes -- it is a matter of form, that if the  16 witness's reliance is upon somebody else, then the  17 opinion upon which it is formed is simply the opinion  18 of somebody else.  That's all there is to it.  19 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, it's certainly a — you can have a  20 heavy matter of weight.  I don't think — that in  21 itself is a bit of a contradiction.  Well, I can put  22 it the other way, that it certainly goes to weight,  23 and it may go in a substantial degree if a witness  24 says "Well, somebody wrote something last week, and I  25 rely on it", that it's -- is the sheerest form of  26 hearsay.  But I think that what we have to do, in  27 order to cope with the problem, is to find out the --  28 those occasions when the witness is relying upon Mr.  29 Mulhall, and I'll have to put that onto the scales.  30 Can you assist me in that, Mr. Jackson, by finding  31 out --  32 MR. JACKSON:  Certainly.  33 THE COURT:  Or perhaps the witness can just tell us whenever he  34 is relying on Mr. Mulhall, so we'll know what role  35 that plays in this total picture.  36 MR. JACKSON:  I was going to ask a number of questions.  37 THE COURT:  All right.  3 8 MR. JACKSON:  39 Q   Could you explain what the Mulhall book is about?  40 A   It's a biography of Father Morice.  It's a work of  41 very precise scholarship.  I would like to say I would  42 not place reliance as an anthropologist upon a book in  43 which I didn't have an appropriate confidence.  I am  44 able to have comments on Mulhall, not only because of  45 the scholarly nature of the book, but because Mulhall  46 relies upon many of the documents, which I have also  47 had access, namely, the Barbeau Beynon archive, Loring 15354  1 correspondence and so on.  2 So when I rely upon Mulhall, I am relying upon a  3 very thorough, very precise scholar whose references  4 are there for every single point he makes, and the  5 references go to archives of which I am familiar.  6 Plus I made very little reliance on Mulhall in my  7 opinion.  I rely upon it for an observation about  8 sickness, and then here and there about Morice he  9 reinforces in a helpful way some of the things I  10 discovered about Morice from my own interviews in the  11 field and from my acquaintance with the Barbeau Beynon  12 archive.  13 THE COURT:  Perhaps you can let us know when you are relying  14 upon Mr. Mulhall.  15 THE WITNESS:   I'll try to.  It's hard for me to look up my  16 footnotes as I am going, but perhaps Mr. Jackson can  17 alert me.  18 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, I will undertake to do that, My Lord.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it is set right out there, My Lord.  20 THE COURT:  Well, if it's set out in the report, that's —  21 MR. JACKSON:  It is, My Lord, in relation to a passage I was  22 referring to.  I thought -- I took your comments to be  23 in relation to any other matters which are not so  24 specified.  2 5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 6 MR. JACKSON:  27 Q   If you could go to page 104 -- I'm not sure you  28 answered the question, Mr. Brody, which I have  29 raised --  3 0       A   No, I didn't.  31 Q   -- when Mr. Goldie raised to object.  Do you recall my  32 question?  33 A   The question, as I recall it, was -- perhaps you  34 should restate your question rather than me trying to  35 remember it.  36 Q   I was reading the passage at page 103 where you said:  37  38 "But in turning to or accepting Christianity,  39 the chiefs did not abandon their own authority"  40  41 And then,  42  43 "The absorption of much Christianity was into  44 the fabric of the society that was seeking to  45 maintain its own authority."  46  47 My question was would you comment on that. 15355  1 A   Two different kinds of things I have to say in answer  2 to that.  First, I have to go back to what I was  3 saying early on in consideration of this question of  4 the missions and sickness in the area.  Chiefs and  5 Halayt were unable to explain adequately what was  6 happening, were unable to deal effectively with what  7 was happening.  Christians seemed to offer an  8 explanation and to have certain cures.  As we noted a  9 moment ago, they were good doctors, Tomlinson in  10 particular.  They had medicines available.  They could  11 deal with illnesses.  This meant the chiefs' powers,  12 the chiefs' authority was in a way called into  13 question.  To maintain the authority, they had to find  14 in Christianity that which they could use themselves.  15 And this is perhaps a convoluted way of saying it was  16 useful to them to at least to in certain regards  17 become Christians, because in the Christianity is some  18 of the authority that the circumstances for the moment  19 are denying them.  So in that way a chief or Shaman  20 who decides he is going to use the new, and uses it to  21 consolidate or defend his authority in the existing  22 system.  23 And the second part of the answer is to say that  24 although the missionaries were extremely effective,  25 according to the archival record, at least one can see  26 that they establish a considerable hold over many  27 individuals.  Christine's heaven paper we just looked  28 at is a good example, or many such examples in the  29 case of Morice, that watchman and flogging system that  30 he put into place among the Carrier and Wet'suwet'en  31 is another good example of a kind of control the  32 missionaries seemed to get over people.  33 Despite that evidence, there is also another kind  34 of evidence which shows that there was a limit to the  35 power and authority of the missionaries.  It was all  36 right for the missionaries to have people go to church  37 in winter, for example, but there is one point in the  38 Barbeau Beynon archive where I think it's Mrs. Cox  39 observes that the people were good Christians in  40 winter, but they weren't such good Christians for the  41 rest of the year, or words to that effect.  That is to  42 say that the document tends to record the point of  43 contact between missionaries and Gitksan and  44 Wet'suwet'en, it doesn't record the parts of their  45 lives that goes on away from missionaries, which would  46 say out in the territories.  And the evidence  47 indicates fairly clearly that in relation to some 15356  1 conflicts between Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en systems of  2 authority on the one hand and the Christian authority  3 on the other, the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en rejected the  4 church's requirements.  And the most important example  5 of that is the feast.  Of course part of the Christian  6 endeavour was to get people to give up the feast, and  7 this they rejected.  When it came to a collision  8 between the feast and Christianity, they held onto the  9 feast, although within the feast there were Christian  10 elements and Christian chiefs.  11 And secondly, when it came to a collision between  12 what the newcomers wanted with the land and what they,  13 the chiefs, thought they needed with the land, there  14 is clear expression of antipathy towards the church.  15 Early on there is an identification of the  16 Catholic missionaries, for example, with the attempt  17 to take the peoples' land from them.  And this erupts  18 here and there in the evidence in a way which suggests  19 that people tended towards a skepticism about the  20 church or certain of the church's projects when it  21 came to a possible alliance between Christianity and  22 settlement of the land, or what other people perceive  23 as expropriation of their land.  24 Q   At page 104 of your report there are referenced what  25 you have just referred to as some of the limits upon  26 the authority of the missionaries, and peoples'  27 response to them.  And you set out there some quotes,  28 and they are referenced to the Barbeau Beynon archive.  29 Bottom of page 104 you say:  30  31 "Looking through the window offered by the many  32 interviews and notes taken by the two  33 researchers in the 1920s, we can see the firm  34 outline of the Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan  35 systems.  The names, crests, songs and  36 territories are repeatedly detailed and  37 emphasized.  Adaawk and other histories that  38 explain the underpin the chiefs' authority and  39 ownership of their territories are recounted.  40 Anticipation of and then first contact with  41 Euro-Canadian culture constitutes a very small  42 portion of the Barbeau-Beynon record.  The  43 coming of the white man is layered onto the  44 rich texture of existing cultures.  Some of the  45 patterns are somewhat altered, others are  46 obscured, at least temporary.  But the accounts  47 and circumstances are rendered in the idioms of 15357  1 the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en cultures.  Even  2 though some aspects of the accounts expressed  3 dismay and some sense of loss, and while the  4 shadow of tragid epmidemics of new ilness falls  5 across many of the interviews, the men and  6 women who spoke to Barbeau and Beynon convey  7 the existence not the disappearance of their  8 world view institutions and ownerships of  9 territories."  10  11 And that is your opinion?  12 A   Yes.  13 THE COURT:  All right.  I wonder if I might just ask if there is  14 any way that can identify in these Barbeau Beynon  15 vignettes which ones are related to Gitksan and  16 Wet'suwet'en.  Are they identified in their text, or  17 are they all related to them, or are there some that  18 relate to --  19 THE WITNESS:   There are some that are clearly Gitksan and some  20 clearly Wet'suwet'en.  For example, all the Binii  21 stories are Wet'suwet'en.  All the Kitwancool -- I  22 want to be careful there.  But it's very difficult, My  23 Lord.  It would be possible to take any given set and  24 go through them and identify the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  25 elements.  26 THE COURT:  Could one identify if one of these stories did not  27 relate to either the Gitksan?  And I don't want any  28 distinction with Kitwancool and its connection, but  29 are there any that are not either Gitksan or  30 Wet'suwet'en?  31 THE WITNESS:   Barbeau Beynon collected stories from other  32 bases, yes.  I have confined myself to the ones that  33 deal with persons who broadly speaking are -- belong  34 to Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area.  35 THE COURT:  I can -- I can assume that these are all related,  36 then, in this volume, which is Exhibit 992, I think.  37 They are all Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en?  38 THE WITNESS:  With the possible exception, My Lord, with some of  39 the Kitwancool names.  If we make an exception for the  40 Kitwancool.  41 THE COURT:  Well, Kitwancool, I understand, are Gitksan.  42 THE WITNESS:  Yes, they are, but in the case of the —  43 Kitwancool Jim story, for example, the wife is clearly  44 Gitksan with a Gitksan name Hanamuxw.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  I don't know that the one under tab 1 can be  46 identified in that way, My Lord.  4 7 MR. JACKSON:  Can you review tab number 1, Mr. Brody? 15358  1 THE COURT:  Well, is this not the murder that we heard about  2 this morning?  3 MR. GOLDIE:  I don't think it is, My Lord.  4 THE COURT:  It's not.  So it may not —  5 THE WITNESS:   We haven't made any reference to this tab so far,  6 have we?  7 MR. JACKSON:  No.  8 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, unless someone tells me otherwise,  9 I will proceed on that basis.  Thank you.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 2:00.  11  12 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  13  14  15 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  16 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  17 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  18 SKILL AND ABILITY.  19  20  21 LORI OXLEY  22 OFFICIAL REPORTER  23 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 15359  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25        (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO THE LUNCHEON BREAK)  26  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  2 8 THE COURT:  Mr. Jackson.  29 MR. JACKSON:  Thank you, my lord.  30 Mr. Brody, if you could just turn back to page 78,  31 and I assure my lordship that I'm not going to return  32 for more than a brief moment.  33 THE COURT:  78?  34 MR. JACKSON:  35 Q   Yes.  Very near the bottom of the page you say:  36  37 "The topics, indeed some of the specific  38 stories, are part of what many chiefs and  39 elders speak of today.  The continuity of  40 the oral tradition, as well as the historic  41 pressures at work in and on the cultures,  42 mean that the Barbeau-Beynon archive is a  43 bridge that allows passage of historic  44 events from their first occurrence to their  45 reiteration and significance at the present  4 6 time."  47 15360  1 Could you comment on that?  2 A   Yes, I think I said earlier that -- or it was put to  3 me that Barbeau-Beynon in interviewing persons in the  4 1920s and interviewing persons who were then middle-  5 aged or elderly were in fact reaching back, so to  6 speak, in time to the earliest contact and even  7 precontact eras of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en society.  8 Similarly, the fact that some of the stories they  9 relate, some of the adaawk elements they have  10 collected, some of the episodes they record in 1920  11 are still told today, still known today.  And it's  12 also striking that many of the chief names that they  13 refer to in their documents, many of the names of  14 their informants are names that are found in the  15 present:  Lelt, Wiigyet, and so on.  There are many.  16 And all this means that we have here a sense of the  17 continuity of the oral tradition in these cultures.  18 Q   If we can go back to page 106.  19 A   106.  20 Q   106 of your report.  The first pull paragraph you say:  21  22 "Persistence is an unintended implication of  23 the Barbeau-Beynon documents.  Like many  24 anthropologists of his own day, Barbeau at  25 times seems to believe that he is engaged  26 upon a form of salvage work - the rescuing  27 of lost, or soon to be lost, cultural riches  28 for display in books and museums.  Again and  29 again, however, we who read the material  30 now, with the benefit of hindsight, can  31 recognize the signs of continuity."  32  33 Mr. Brody, when you were first tested by regarding the  34 Barbeau-Beynon archive and you indicated who Barbeau  35 was and who Beynon was, you appeared to draw a  36 distinction between Barbeau the collector of material  37 and Barbeau the interpreter, and as I have a note, you  38 had some doubts about his latter role.  Could I ask  39 you at this point to explain what you meant when you  40 referred to doubts in that context?  41 A   Yes.  Barbeau was essentially a folklorist.  Indeed, I  42 think he collected old stories and songs in Quebec  43 before he moved to the Northwest Coast area.  I said  44 he was a collector, a wonderful collector, a thorough  45 collector of stories and songs, record of information,  46 but he tried at times to construct general theories on  47 the basis of his own information, and these theories 15361  1 don't stand up to much scrutiny.  For example, he  2 bases on the adaawk he's collected an opinion to the  3 effect that the peoples of the Northwest Coast are  4 immigrants from Siberia, but, in fact, the adaawk  5 don't bear this interpretation.  And it's an opinion  6 of Barbeau's centrally based, if I recall, on what is  7 known as the Chief Mountain adaawk, which suggests  8 that people are coming from somewhere offshore to the  9 coast, but it's clear from the Chief Mountain adaawk  10 that the place offshore is the Queen Charlotte  11 Islands, not Siberia, since the Chief Mountain adaawk  12 refers to a village on the Charlotte Islands.  13 It's also striking that in his construction of the  14 Siberian to North American migration Barbeau bases his  15 opinion on an adaawk the first part of which he  16 neglects to report.  And in the first part of this  17 adaawk, again the mountain adaawk, it is evident that  18 the people are going away from the mainland offshore  19 and then coming back.  In other words, it's an adaawk  20 of migrations from one place to another and back  21 again.  This is an example of -- of Barbeau's  22 surprising use of his own resources.  There are  23 similar difficulties with his speculation about totem  24 poles, and it's a famous debate about Barbeau's view  25 of the totem pole as a modern phenomenon.  Barbeau's  26 account of the totem pole doesn't stand up to academic  27 anthropological scrutiny.  I think that Wilson Duff  28 has dealt with this point extremely well in his  29 article on the subject.  30 Q   My lord, perhaps I could just clarify this.  The  31 article of Wilson Duff, is that an article  32 "Contributions of Marius Barbeau to West Coast  33 Ethnology" by Wilson Duff in 1964, Anthropologia,  34 volume 6, number 1?  35 A   That's the one, yes.  36 MR. JACKSON:  That's already an exhibit, my lord, at 901-30.  37 THE COURT:  Thank you.  38 THE WITNESS:  Should I continue with this answer?  3 9 MR. JACKSON:  40 Q   Yes.  41 A   There's another point that I think I should make here.  42 Barbeau also has opinions about the time depth of the  43 cultures of the Northwest Coast and suggests that they  44 are institutionally of quite recent origin, not that  45 long before contact.  And once again, this doesn't  46 stand up to scrutiny.  He bases this view on an idea  47 of dispersal from Siberia into the very north end of 15362  1 the Northwest Coast and a filtering down of Northwest  2 Coast culture, and he essentially attributes this  3 whole culture complex to the achievements of a single  4 immigrant from Siberia.  The very idea this whole  5 culture could be the result of one immigrant is  6 already anthropologically deeply implausible.  The  7 anthropological record as a whole testifies to the  8 fact that if there is a dispersal of Northwest Coast  9 cultures, it's from the lower mainland, what we would  10 now call the lower mainland north Vancouver Island,  11 northwards and not a dispersal southwards.  And the  12 anthropological experts on the whole would agree that  13 Tsimshian and Nishga, Tlingit, the northern edge of  14 the culture -- I'll spell all those for you later, I'm  15 sorry -- are at the northern edge of a culture complex  16 and not at its epicentre.  Again, Wilson Duff in the  17 article we have just referred to deals with these  18 points comprehensively.  19 Q   Okay.  Mr. Brody, if we could now turn to Chapter 10.  20 Mr. Brody, you heard yesterday his lordship at one  21 point referred to the two solitudes.  In Chapter 10  22 you describe your flight back from Bear Lake.  23 Yesterday afternoon you dealt with the meeting you  24 were present at -- series of meetings you were present  25 at at Bear Lake, and in the report you describe your  26 flight back from Bear Lake to Smithers.  Could you  27 explain the anthropological significance of that to  28 the issues you have addressed in Chapter 10?  29 A  Well, it does go, I suppose, to this idea of the  30 solitudes.  A person who lives or travels along the  31 settled corridors of the Skeena Valley or Bulkley  32 Valley areas sees land beyond the settled and farmed  33 valleys as wilderness, and wilderness is a very  34 evocative term in European and North American  35 consciousness.  It's land, the geography of which is  36 pristine, where there is no shaping by culture, where  37 human habitation hasn't made its monuments, effected  38 its changes.  It's a place of forests and mountains  39 and rivers where there are merely nature and  40 landscape.  41 Now, if you fly over that land in the company of a  42 Gitksan chief, as I did flying with Wii gaak -- I  43 mean, Wii gaak was -- there were other chiefs on the  44 plane, but the only person I could hear and talk to  45 was Wii gaak because he was sitting right beside me,  46 and you hear him enthusing about what he sees below  47 him, you realize that for him this isn't wilderness, 15363  1 this is culture.  There's a geography that is a  2 cultural geography that he is looking at.  It's  3 territories that he's used, the trails, berry patches,  4 cabin, all the features of culture, not the features  5 of wilderness.  And you begin to realize and I began  6 to think about the way in which his eyes shaped the  7 land as a result of his culture and my eyes shaped the  8 land as a result of my culture.  And then coming into  9 Smithers there for me is the familiar, the farm lands,  10 clear logging for the farm lands, and then the settled  11 corridor, and there is the cultural geography that I  12 see.  Does that deal with it?  13 Q   Yes.  Is there an anthropological term inter-  14 visibility?  15 A  Well, it's a term that I might have coined.  I don't  16 think it's a term of the art.  I think it  17 characterizes perhaps with a long word the problem of  18 twin solitudes.  There is the problem of who sees  19 what.  Do we see them?  Do they see us?  Is there an  20 intervisibility?  21 (INTERRUPTION BY REPORTER)  22 There is a problem of who is seeing who.  You're  23 giving me an opportunity to rewrite here.  And it's  24 difficult for persons whose lives centred in or on the  25 settlement corridor of the Bulkley and Skeena valleys  26 to see beyond that corridor.  They don't see the  27 wilderness beyond, except as wilderness.  They don't  28 have a chance to know it as culture.  And vice versa  29 there are persons out there that probably this is less  30 of a problem because of the nature of cultural change  31 in the area.  The people who live all of their lives  32 in remote communities, they have some difficulty  33 perhaps seeing the nature of the institutions and  34 concerns in the settlement corridor.  35 Q   Mr. Brody, if you would turn to page 114 of your  36 report, and you state:  37  38 "In the first two decades of this century,  39 family after family of Wet'suwet'en were  40 forced from their homes, and even out of  41 ancient villages.  Minutes of a conference  42 held in the Babine Agency on July 19, 1909,  43 refer to 29 such cases along the Bulkley  44 Valley.  Most, if not all of these were a  45 result of grants of lands to veterans of the  46 Boer War, according to special legislation  47 passed to that effect in 1901 and 1906. 15364  1 Although this legislation established quite  2 clearly that land for veteran settlement  3 must be unoccupied, and have no existing  4 buildings upon it, this provision - crucial  5 from the Wet'suwet'en point of view - was  6 either unenforced or unenforceable.  7 Wet'suwet'en houses were burnt; their farms  8 seized; clusters of houses and buildings  9 razed to the ground.  Wet'suwet'en hunters,  10 trappers and fishermen returned to their  11 homes at the end of summer or in early  12 winter, having completed their season's  13 fishing at Moricetown or Hagwilget, to find  14 white settlers in possession and able to  15 summon the police to enforce their new,  16 supposed right to these Indian lands."  17  18 Upon what are those statements based?  19 A  Well, there's a great deal of evidence that goes to  20 this matter.  There are the Loring papers that I  21 referred to yesterday.  There is the 1909 commission,  22 July 19, that's referred to in the text here.  There  23 is the McKenna-McBride Commission, Babine Agency and  24 Stuart Lake Agency.  25 Q   Did you conduct any interviews relating to this?  26 A  Well, I was just going to go on to say — I was  27 hesitating because, in fact, there are so many --  28 many -- I had many conversations with Wet'suwet'en  29 about this and a number of interviews that I recorded,  30 and there is the commission evidence too, which I have  31 had an opportunity to look at.  All those sources  32 contain references to details of these events.  33 MR. JACKSON:  I would like to hand up, my lord, volume 3 of the  34 book of documents.  Would you turn to tab 1?  35 THE COURT:  Should we mark the book?  36 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, my lord, I think that would be appropriate.  37 THE COURT:  And tab numbers?  38 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, the same way as number 2.  39 THE COURT:  All right.  What's the next number?  40 THE REGISTRAR:  The next number, my lord, is number 993.  41  42       (EXHIBIT 993 - Plaintiff Book 3 - H. Brody)  43  4 4 THE COURT:  Tab 1.  4 5 MR. JACKSON:  4 6       Q   Tab 1, my lord.  47 Could you turn to the first page of that, Mr. 15365  1 Brody, and read the first three lines starting with,  2 "MINUTES of..."?  3 A  4 "MINUTES of conference, under above date,  5 held with Special Commissioners Messrs. A.W.  6 Vowell," that's V-o-w-e-1-1, "and S.  7 Stewart," S-t-e-w-a-r-t, "and the Hagwilget  8 Indians at the office of the Babine and  9 Upper Skeena River Agency."  10  11 Q   Okay.  And if you could go to the bottom of the second  12 page, starting from, "Francis Lake John says," and  13 read there?  14 A  15 "Francis Lake John says:- We have the  16 greatest respect for authority and hope that  17 our words be taken to Ottawa.  We now will  18 speak of our hunting grounds.  The clashes  19 we have with the whites are many."  20  21 Q   And there then is a list of individuals with reference  22 to particular pieces of land.  Did you add those up,  23 and are those the 29 cases to which you refer in your  24 document -- in your report --  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   — at page 114?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 THE COURT:  That's extending over to the next page?  2 9 MR. JACKSON:  30 Q   Yes, my lord, that extends to halfway down the next  31 page.  32 That handwriting, Mr. Brody, is that your  33 handwriting?  34 A  Whereabouts?  35 Q   I'm sorry, on the third page.  It's page 4 as it's  36 identified in the document.  37 A   No.  Where it says, "Now known as McClure Lake," for  38 example?  39 Q   Yes.  40 A   No, that's not my handwriting.  41 MR. JACKSON:  Okay.  42 THE COURT:  There's a different handwriting under the next  43 entry.  44 THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is, isn't it.  45 THE COURT:  That's not yours either?  46 THE WITNESS:  No, it isn't, my lord.  There are initials after  47 the first one, I think. 15366  1 MR. JACKSON:  2 Q   Do you know whose writing that is, Mr. Brody?  3 A   I don't recognize it.  I was just wondering if it was  4 a formal correction.  I -- no, I don't know.  5 MR. JACKSON:  Some of it does seem, my lord, to be a form of  6 script which is no longer in vogue --  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. JACKSON:  — in that it's remarkably legible.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  10 MR. JACKSON:  11 Q   In terms of the interviews you identified as one of  12 the sources of those statements, is your interview  13 with Bazil Michell one of those interviews?  14 A   Yes, it is.  15 MR. JACKSON:  That's at tab 20, my lord, of document book 1.  16 Before perhaps I move on to that, my lord, can this  17 document be marked as the next exhibit?  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  That will be 993, tab 1.  19 THE REGISTRAR:  Is there a date on there?  20 MR. JACKSON:  July the 19th of 1909.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  22  23 (EXHIBIT 993-1 - Tab 1 - Book 3, Minutes of Conference,  24 July 19, 1909)  25 THE COURT:  But perhaps for a limited purpose.  Is this an  2 6 archival document?  27 MR. JACKSON:  I understand it is, my lord.  28 THE COURT:  All right.  If it is, that's fine.  If it's not,  2 9 then at the moment it can only be evidence of what the  30 witness relied on for his opinion.  31 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, of course, my lord.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  This may be a niggling point, but perhaps it  33 could be established that with these interlineations  34 on it that is the document that the witness relied on.  35 THE COURT:  Is this the document you relied upon with these  36 interlineations?  37 THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is, my lord.  38 THE COURT:  Okay.  3 9 MR. JACKSON:  4 0       Q   And did you interview Johnny David?  41 A   I did, yes.  42 MR. JACKSON:  That, my lord, is the interview set out at tab 21  43 of volume 1 of the document book.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 5 MR. JACKSON:  46 Q   And did you interview Emma Michell?  47 A   Yes. 15367  1 MR. JACKSON:  And that's set out at tab 41 of the document book.  2 THE COURT:  Of volume 1?  3 MR. JACKSON:  Of volume 1.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  These are all subject to the objections which I  5 have made.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. JACKSON:  Could you turn to tab 2 of document book 3, Mr.  8 Brody?  9 THE REGISTRAR:  Are you marking tab 20 and 41?  10 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, my lord, I would like to mark tabs 21 and 41  11 and tab 20 of document book 1.  Thank you, Madam  12 Registrar.  13 THE COURT:  Which ones, please?  14 MR. JACKSON:  Tabs 20, 21, and 41.  15 THE REGISTRAR:  That's 990.  16 MR. JACKSON:  990.  17 THE COURT:  21 is already marked.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, it is, my lord.  19 THE COURT:  The other one is 40.  2 0 THE REGISTRAR:  41.  And 20, my lord.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  22  23 (EXHIBIT 990-20 - Tab 20 - Book 1, Bazil Michell  24 Interview)  25 (EXHIBIT 990-41 - Tab 41 - Book 1, Emma Michell Interview)  26  27 MR. JACKSON:  I had referred the witness, my lord, to tab 2 of  28 document book 3, which is the commission evidence of  29 Bazil Michell.  It might be helpful -- I should have  30 advised Madam Registrar of this before.  I'm going to  31 refer to a number of commissions, and I notice that my  32 copies were stapled together.  It may facilitate your  33 lordship and the witness and my friends if the staples  34 were removed.  35 THE COURT:  I spent some happy hours taking staples out of  36 documents.  I can manage that.  You're looking at tab  37 3 now?  3 8 MR. JACKSON:  Tab 3.  3 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  40 MR. JACKSON:  Sorry, tab 2.  41 THE COURT:  Tab 2.  42 MR. JACKSON:  43 Q   Could you go to line 28, Mr. Brody, starting with the  44 question, "Bazil..."?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Could you read?  47 A 15368  1 "Q   Bazil, during the time when your family lived at  2 Lhe Tait," that's L-h-e T-a-i-t, "for the winter,  3 did your family also have summer houses at  4 another location?  5 A   The family also lived around Barrett," that's  6 B-a-r-r-e-t-t, "Lake.  They had cleared the land  7 and did haying on it, and the government had  8 kicked us out with no compensation."  9  10 Q   And would you now turn to page 26, that's two pages  11 on, and read lines 13 and 15 starting with, "There  12 was..."?  13 A  14 "A   There was a village at Lhe Tait as well as  15 Barrett Lake and our people used to move back and  16 forth depending on the trapping season."  17  18 Q   Madam Reporter, that's L-h-e T-a-i-t.  19 A   Question —  20 Q   No, that's as far as that, Mr. Brody.  Could you turn  21 to page 27, starting with line 26, and read to the end  22 of that page?  23 A  24 "Q   Did your family leave the house at Barrett Lake?  25 A  We were chased out along with our horses.  2 6 Q   Can you remember how old were you when you were  27 chased out of the house there?  28 A   Gee," that's g-e-e, "I don't remember my exact  2 9 age.  I was young at the time but my father had  30 taken me throughout the territory.  He took me  31 along on his trips when he went trapping.  I went  32 along with him and I learnt from him because  33 they" -- it says a-h-d, I assume it means had --  34 "used the territory for many years.  They had set  35 up villages at Barrett Lake and Lhe Tait.  36 Q   Can you remember how old was Josephine when they  37 kicked you off?  38 A   Josephine was a very young girl at that time.  39 She was not yet walking, she was being packed  40 around by her mother.  41 Q   Do you know who the people were, who did they  42 work for, those people that kicked the families  43 off Barrett Lake?  44 A  When the white people came, they had a scuffle  45 with my father, Lame Arthur Michell, and George  46 Naziel's," that's N-a-z-i-e-1, "Naziel's father,  47 and when we had come down to Hagwilget they were 15369  1 both picked up and put in jail.  2 Q   Bazil, when you talk about the white people, do  3 you know who were these people and who they  4 worked for?  5 A   The white people that chased us off the land were  6 Charlie Barrett and his brother Ed.  Ed Barrett.  7 Q   Were there any people from the government with  8 Charlie Barrett and his brother at that time?  9 A   They were around and that is why we were chased  10 off our land."  11  12 Q   Could you now go down to line 17, "The government  13 people..."?  14 A  15 "A   The government people, I can't give you the exact  16 number but they used to have a camp this side of  17 Houston, and they used to come into Barrett Lake  18 and they did not quit until they chased us off  19 the land.  2 0 Q   All right.  When the government people and  21 Charlie Barrett first came to chase the families  22 off Barrett Lake, how many families were there on  23 the land at that time?  24 A   There was my father and my mother, and the  25 families from both my father's and mother's side,  26 and they all had their children."  27  28 Q   Could you now turn to page 29 and read from the top of  29 the page down to line 10?  30 A  31 "Q   Do you know what these government men and Charlie  32 Barrett and his brother -- what they said to your  33 father?  34 A  My father had told me that they were very angry  35 and that they had threatened to shoot the men and  36 the children that had lived there.  37 Q   Did your family and the other families move off  38 Barrett Lake after that incident took place?  39 A  When they kicked us off the land, we moved to  40 Moricetown in the area just a little east of  41 where this house is, and I think the ladies went  42 to Hagwilget."  43  44 Q   Could you now go to line 20?  Perhaps read line 16,  45 question by Ms. Mandell.  46 A  47 "Q   Where did your father, Lame Arthur Michell, and 15370  1 Naziel go?"  2  3 Q   And down to line 20.  4 A  5 "THE WITNESS:  George Naziel's father had moved to the  6 area where George Naziel lives today."  7  8 Q   And perhaps line 27 -- no, line 23.  I beg your  9 pardon.  10 A   23?  11 Q   Yes.  12 A  13 "THE WITNESS:  And my father moved directly across  14 from his -- where he settled and we lived in the  15 tent."  16  17 Q   And line 27.  18 A  19 "Q   What season of the year did you move and live in  20 the tents?  21 A   It was in the fall, I remember the leaves were  22 turning yellow.  23 Q   Did you live in the tent throughout that winter?  24 A  We lived in the tent during the winter as well as  25 the fall, and in the spring my father had built a  26 cabin next to where the tents were and that's  27 where we moved in the summertime.  28 Q   All right.  You said —  2 9 A  And I don't know exactly what date it was.  In  30 those days we didn't have any calendars.  31 Q   You said earlier that your father and Naziel,  32 your uncle, were put in jail following the  33 scuffle on Barrett Lake; do you know how long did  34 they spend in jail?"  35  36 The "long" in my copy is inserted in longhand here.  37  38 "A   They were both in jail for one month.  39 Q   Was that, do you remember, in the fall or winter  40 or the spring or summer of the year that they  41 were kicked off of Barrett Lake?  42 A   It was summer when they were put in jail.  43 Q   When your father was in jail that summer, Bazil,  44 do you remember if your family had enough to eat?  45 A  While my father was in jail, we didn't have much  4 6 food.  The way we survived was with my mother and  47 George Naziel's mother would set nets and that's 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 MR.  35  36 THE  37 MR.  38  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41 THE  42  4 3 MR.  44 THE  4 5 MR.  4 6 THE  4 7 MR.  15371  what we survived on.  Q   What happened to your horses when you were kicked  off Barrett Lake?  A   The horses were taken to Hagwilget, near where  the Hagwilget ball diamond is now.  Q   How was your family able to feed them?  A   The horses were put out to pasture and that's how  they survived.  They fed themselves.  Q   Is there a plant around Moricetown or Hagwilget  which is particularly good feed for horses?  A   The plant that the horses ate besides hay was a  plant called huh tay, which grew around the  lakes."  That's h-u-h t-a-y.  "Q   At the time when your family was chased off the  land at Barrett Lake, are you aware of any other  people who were chased off land behind Moricetown  at the same time?"  Q  A  Line 21.  "THE WITNESS:  The other people who were chased off  the land was Johnny Austin, A-u-s-t-i-n, who was  my uncle, Old Bill, and Charlie who was John  Mack's," M-a-c-k-s, "uncle.  Charlie had built a  house just directly behind where the mailboxes  are past the creek."  Q   And is that one of the sources of the statements which  you have set out in your report?  A   That's one of them, yes.  JACKSON:  Could you turn to tab 3 of book 3?  This is the  commission evidence of Johnny David, my lord.  COURT:  I'm sorry.  JACKSON:  Commission evidence of Johnny David.  It's tab  3 --  COURT:  Yes, thank you.  JACKSON:  — of volume 3.  COURT:  Johnny David was the one that I -- whose evidence I  saw in commission on video, is it not?  GRANT:  Yes, he was also a witness in November.  COURT:  Oh, yes.  GRANT:  He was a very elderly man.  COURT:  Yes.  GOLDIE:  I'm sorry, did the reporter catch that?  Were you 15372  1 addressing the witness?  2 MR. JACKSON:  I asked the witness whether it was too tiring for  3 him to read or whether I should take over, my lord.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  It would sound much the same, my lord.  5 THE COURT:  I don't know that it's necessary to be read.  6 MR. JACKSON:  I was not going to go through Johnny David's in  7 the same elaboration, my lord.  8 THE COURT:  I can quickly read it if you want me to.  9 MR. JACKSON:  There was just a couple of points I wanted to put  10 to Mr. Brody.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  12 MR. JACKSON:  13 Q   If you could turn to tab 3, Mr. Brody, and if you  14 could go to volume 3 of the commission evidence.  The  15 first page of that -- it's volume 3, page 60, and  16 could you just read lines 23 and 28?  17 A   To 28?  18 MR. JACKSON:  Yes.  19 THE COURT:  I haven't found it yet.  Where is it?  20 MR. JACKSON:  It's the second item in — volume 2 is the first  21 thing in the tab, my lord, and then volume -- we're at  22 volume 3, tab 3.  23 THE COURT:  Tab 3.  Yes, that's where I am, but where is page  24 60?  25 MR. JACKSON:  It's in volume 3 of the commission evidence, the  26 first page of that.  2 7 THE COURT: Are you at tab 3?  2 8 MR. JACKSON:  Yes.  29 THE COURT:  Yes.  You did say page 60, didn't you?  30 MR. JACKSON:  It's five pages in Mr. Grant says.  31 THE COURT:  Oh.  How does it start?  32 MR. JACKSON:  "Around 1907..."  Page 60.  33 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  34 MR. JACKSON:  35 Q   Do you have that, Mr. Brody?  36 A   I thought I had it till you said, "Around 1907..."  37 I'm in the wrong place here.  38 Q   Perhaps I can assist you.  39 A   I see.  I have it now.  40 Q   Okay.  Could you just read those five lines?  41 A  42 "A Around 1907 the white man came and the game  43 warden began to give the traplines to their own  44 white people which had originally belonged to us.  45 And the game warden told the white people, you  46 see any Indians crossing into your territory let  47 me know and I will arrest them." A  That  's,  Q  Yes.  A  "Q  Did  A  Yes  Q  Was  15373  1  2 Q   And if you could turn to the next page, page 61, and  3 just read lines 10 to 12 starting with, "I told  4 you..."  5 A  6 "I told you about how we were treated by the white  7 man.  The game wardens had sticks which they  8 threatened us with, similar to the stick I have  9 behind the door."  10  11 Q   And if you could just go through to volume 6.  This is  12 just a few pages further on, my lord.  And if you  13 could read from lines 17 to 28, page 621, my lord, in  14 the documents.  There's just a few lines I want the  15 witness to read.  Lines 17 to 28.  Do you have that,  16 Mr. Brody?  17 A   That's, "Did you live..."?  18  19  20 "Q   Did you live in your smoke house?  21  22 Q   Was that the only building that you had on that  23 land?  24 A   No, just my father's house.  When the white man  25 came they burnt down all the smoke house.  26 Q   Did they burn down your father's house?  27 A   Yes, they did burn my father's house down, and  28 they stole all the guns, they stole all the axes.  29 Q   When did this happen?  30 A   It was about 1909.  It was after my father had  31 died they stole all the contents of the house and  32 then burnt it down."  33  34 Q   Yes.  Could you -- I won't impose on you much more  35 here.  Turn to volume 7 of the transcript of  36 proceedings and from lines 17 -- page 760,  37 cross-examination by Mr. Milne.  38 A   Beginning, "THE WITNESS"?  39 Q   From lines 17, "THE WITNESS:  There was..."  40 A  41 "THE WITNESS:  There was another person, Peter  42 Michell, and there was Old Happy, who is the same  43 person who chased him off the land around the  44 Glentana," that's G-1-e-n-t-a-n-a, "area.  45 BY MR. MILNE:  4 6 Q   Do you know what happened there?  Can you tell me  47 more about that incident? 15374  1 A   Before the white people came Peter Michell had  2 been haying there many years and Old Happy had  3 threatened Peter Michell if he does not get off  4 the land he would report him to the law, and our  5 people were afraid of the authority of the white  6 people, and they had no respect for us, and when  7 he was threatened Peter Michell left the land."  8  9 Q   And could you turn to page 103 of volume 7 and read  10 lines 18 to 22?  11 A  12 "THE INTERPRETER:  He said that the people, the white  13 people had no respect for the Indian people.  The  14 Indian people would chase them off their land,  15 they would go and get their law and they would  16 throw our people in jail."  17  18 MR. JACKSON:  Thank you, Mr. Brody.  And there is one last  19 passage on volume 8, page 138.  2 0 THE COURT:  I don't think so.  21 MR. JACKSON:  Yes.  22 THE COURT:  It starts at 139.  Oh, I'm sorry, the pages are  23 reversed.  2 4 MR. JACKSON:  25 Q   We have two 139s, my lord.  Starting from line 16.  Do  26 you have that, Mr. Brody?  27 A  28 "Q   Did you know..."?  29  30 Q   Yes.  31 A  32 "Q   Did you know of a man named Peter, an Indian  33 person who had cabins burned by white people?  34 A   Peter lived at Hatta," H-a-t-t-a, "Lake, and they  35 did burn his house down.  White people had no  36 respect for the Indians.  They took everything  37 that belonged to the Indians, and they did not  38 look upon the Indians favourably.  39 Q   Do you know of a man named Billy Clark, a white  40 man?  Did you ever hear of him having anything to  41 do with Isaac, Patty Isaac's father?  42 A   Yes, I did.  43 Q   What did you hear about what Billy Clark did?  44 A   Bulkley Lake Isaac came back to his land to do  45 some haying.  They found Billy Clark there.  46 Billy Clark told them that he had bought the land  47 off the government and he told Isaac to leave and 15375  1 chased him off his land.  2 Q   Had Isaac had a house on that land that Billy  3 Clark took?  4 A   Yes, he had a smokehouse and that was burnt  5 down."  6  7 Q   Thank you, Mr. Brody.  Did you also as one of the  8 bases for the matters set out at page 114 of your  9 report refer -- rely upon Barbeau-Beynon, and I would  10 like to refer you specifically -- this is tab 6, my  11 lord, of volume 2.  I think this will be the last time  12 I will be referring to volume 2.  Can you identify  13 what this document is, Mr. Brody?  14 A   This is one of the items from the Barbeau-Beynon  15 archive.  The BF numbers at the top indicate that it  16 comes from the same collection of documents that I was  17 referring to in my discussion of sickness and missions  18 and early encounters.  19 Q   And it appears to be an interview with John Baptiste?  20 A   Yes.  21 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I haven't got it.  I'm at tab 6.  22 MR. JACKSON:  6 of volume 2, my lord.  2 3 THE COURT:  Volume 2.  24 MR. JACKSON:  The Barbeau-Beynon.  25 THE COURT:  Oh, all right.  Thank you.  2 6 MR. JACKSON:  27 Q   Who was John Baptiste, Mr. Brody?  28 A   John Baptiste was a Wet'suwet'en.  His Wet'suwet'en  29 name was Woos, I believe, W-o-o-s, in the House of  30 Gitdumden -- in the Wolf Clan, I should say,  31 Gitdumden.  That's G-i-t-d-u-m-d-e-n.  32 Q   Could you go to the first page of 74.4 and read  33 starting from, "I have hunting ground..."  The last  34 paragraph on that page.  35 A  36 "I have hunting ground" --  37  38 THE COURT:  Sorry, where are you?  39 MR. JACKSON:  This is at tab 6.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  41 MR. JACKSON:  First page.  "I have hunting grounds..."  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Is my friend's purpose having it read out to  44 identify the particular parts that the witness is  45 relying upon as opposed to the whole of the document?  46 MR. JACKSON:  I am referring to particular passages, my lord,  47 and — 15376  1 MR. GOLDIE:  I understand that.  My point is is that the passage  2 that the witness -- are we to take it that these are  3 the passages the witness relies upon as opposed to  4 relying upon the whole document?  5 MR. JACKSON:  The whole document is being put in as the source,  6 my lord.  I am seeking to --  7 THE COURT:  These are being cited for emphasis.  8 MR. JACKSON:  That's right, my lord.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Yeah, I know the whole document is being put in.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  11 MR. JACKSON:  The whole document, which is the source of the  12 opinions of this witness, my lord.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Then this is just for emphasis; is that  14 correct?  15 MR. JACKSON:  I am seeking, my lord, to -- I could read the  16 whole document.  That would serve no purpose.  I'm  17 seeking to describe a chain of continuity in terms of  18 the conclusions.  19 THE COURT:  I take it you're illustrating the point that's made  20 on page 114 --  21 MR. JACKSON:  That is my purpose.  22 THE COURT:  — of the report.  Yes.  But you're not limiting  23 yourself just to the passages that are being  24 mentioned.  2 5 MR. JACKSON:  No, I'm not.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  It comes down to emphasis then.  27 THE COURT:  Yes, I think so.  Go ahead.  2 8 MR. JACKSON:  29 Q   Could you start again, Mr. Brody.  "I have hunting  30 ground..."  31 A  32 "I have hunting ground, white man gets  33 licence--lots of white men--; hunting ground  34 7 miles square on Pine Creek, near Telhwa,"  35  36 spelt T-e-1-h-w-a, presumably meaning Telkwa.  It  37 should be a "k" instead of the "h."  38  39 "...and on this side Tyee Lake;" T-y-e-e, "10  40 miles; white men gets licence; I talk lots  41 of time, to Loring about it; talk to white  42 man, say:  Quit my hunting ground.'  And  43 policeman came, he helped that white man,  44 Indian cannot help, has no policeman.  No  45 more trouble after for me.  That's the law.  4 6 Law no good."  47 15377  1 Q   And could you go to the next page and about two thirds  2 of the way down the page, "Indians had lots of  3 land..."?  Read from there.  4 A  5 "Indians had lots of land; lets white men  6 draw his lands; sell it and get money for  7 his pocket.  Indian keep small land, white  8 man comes kicks him, say:  'go away.'"  9  10 I correct myself, "go way."  11  12  13 "And Indian go out to die outside."  14  15 There's some dashes in the text, and then it goes on:  16  17 "William Le'u," L-e-acute accent-  18 apostrophe-u," my neighbour, 5 miles, Xmas  19 time, last winter, kicked away from his  20 land; not given one cent.  House and stable,  21 good fence plowed land, not give one cent.  22 2 policemen put him outside; pull out match,  23 light it; and put it near blanket, say:  'If  24 you don't quit I burn all'.  Now stop  25 outside; and 7 cows, 2 horses, will die  26 outside, cannot make hay.  White man has  27 burnt house; has left stables.  Look at that  28 business.  29 Canon," C-a-n-o-n, meaning, I assume,  30 Canyon, "Creek, William Le'u and Jimmy and  31 Mary, Maggy, other boys, Celina," that's  32 C-e-1-i-n-a, "small girl all stop outside,  33 now.  34 Round Lake Thorny," spelt T-h-o-m-y, "near  35 me, 5 miles away:  white man—John Baggy  36 catch land from him; plice," I assume this  37 means police, "come; throw him outside; and  38 Baggy sell land gets lots of money to go  39 way.  Thorny outside with wife and girl; wife  40 and girl die Thorny poor man now."  41  42 MR. JACKSON:  If you could stop at that point, Mr. Brody.  If I  43 can have you go back to tab 3, which is the commission  44 evidence of Johnny David, in volume 3.  We can put  45 volume 2 away, I think, my lord.  I think we won't be  4 6 needing that again.  And tab 3 of document book 3, the  47 commission evidence of Johnny David, and if we can go 15378  1 to volume 5 of the commission evidence, page 534.  If  2 you could review, Mr. Brody -- do you have that, my  3 lord?  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 MR. JACKSON:  6 Q   Lines 26 -- I'm not asking you to read them, but if  7 you could review lines 26 through the rest of that  8 page.  Is that a reference to the same John Baptiste?  9 A   Yes.  10 MR. JACKSON:  If you could go to page 115 of your report, Mr.  11 Brody, and you say at the top of the page:  12  13 "The chiefs who were dispossessed appear in  14 documents of the day under their English  15 names - the Christian names that they were  16 given by whites who could not manage to  17 learn, or chose to disregard, Wet'suwet'en  18 names."  19  20 The next paragraph:  21  22 "Some of the introduced, artificial sounding  23 Christian names have become the surnames of  24 distinguished Wet'suwet'en families.  The  25 real names that white newcomers ignored  26 included, of course, hereditary chief  2 7 names,"  28 and you go on to list there the assigned names and the  2 9 Wet'suwet'en names.  Could you read that?  I don't  30 think I will attempt it myself.  31 THE COURT:  Well, I can read it.  I'm halfway through it now.  32 MR. JACKSON:  33 Q   All right.  Thank you, my lord.  I'll just refer your  34 lordship to that.  35 What is the source, Mr. Brody, of those statements  36 in relation to which individuals hold which names?  37 A   The names?  38 Q   Yes.  39 A  When I discovered the names of some of the chiefs and  40 individuals who had lost their homes and lands, I  41 asked Alfred Joseph and Tonia Mills to help me  42 identify what their Wet'suwet'en names were and what  43 houses they belonged to, and I relied very heavily on  44 what Alfred Joseph and Tonia Mills told me.  45 Q   Okay.  At the bottom of page 115 you state:  46  47 "To realize that the familiar Christian names 15379  1 represent important chiefs in each of the  2 Wet'suwet'en clans leads to another  3 dimension of the damage done to Wet'suwet'en  4 life by those early settlers along the  5 Bulkley Valley.  Dispossession was not  6 simply of individuals:  those chiefs were  7 heads of, and responsible for, large  8 extended families.  Family homes and lands  9 were taken and destroyed.  The suffering was  10 therefore on a larger scale than a list of  11 individual names suggests."  12  13 And that is your opinion?  14 A   Yes.  15 MR. JACKSON:  The next statement you make in the report is:  16  17 "Many Wet'suwet'en protested against and  18 resisted invasion of their lands."  19  20 Could you turn to the commission evidence of Johnny  21 David again?  It's tab 3 of document book 3, my lord,  22 volume 8.  2 3 THE COURT:  Tab 8.  24 MR. JACKSON:  Tab 3.  It's very near the end of tab 3, my lord.  25 THE COURT:  All right.  2 6 MR. JACKSON:  27 Q   Page 130 -- where is it?  If you could go to page 140  28 of that -- 139.  I'm sorry, Mr. Brody.  Lines 32 to  29 34.  And could you just read those questions and  30 answers?  31 A  32 "Q   Do you know if they protested against the white  33 man coming onto each of their lands?  34 A   Yes, they did."  35  36 Q   That's as far as —  37 A   That's enough, is it?  38 Q   -- I think I wanted you to go, Mr. Brody.  In your  39 interviews with Wet'suwet'en interviewees was this  40 also a subject matter of the interview?  41 A   The extent to which people had protested and resisted?  42 Q   Yes.  43 A   Yes, in the accounts that people would give of this  44 episode or these episodes in their history they  45 usually wouldn't separate out the experience from  46 their response to the experience.  It was all part of  47 a single narrative.  So very often I was told, for 15380  1 example, by Bazil Michell about the loss of the land,  2 the threat, the threats that people recall being made  3 to them, fights, jail sentences, and so on.  And it's  4 very much a part of the telling of this period in  5 Wet'suwet'en history the conflict between the  6 Wet'suwet'en and the whites and the extent to which it  7 brought the Wet'suwet'en into conflict with the police  8 and the law of the day.  9 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, I'm going to for the moment jump over the  10 next chapter, which is headed "Mixed Messages."  I  11 will be coming back to it, but I want to deal with  12 Chapter 12 at this point.  13 THE COURT:  All right.  Do you want to take the afternoon  14 adjournment before you start?  15 MR. JACKSON:  Yes.  Thank you.  16 THE COURT:  Where does Chapter 12 start?  17 MR. JACKSON:  Page 137.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  We'll take the afternoon  19 adjournment.  20 MR. JACKSON:  Thank you, your honour.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court is recessed.  22  2 3        (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 P.M.)  24  25 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  26 a true and accurate transcript of the  27 proceedings herein to the best of my  28 skill and ability.  29  30  31  32 Leanna Smith  33 Official Reporter  34 United Reporting Service Ltd.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 15381  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER BRIEF RECESS)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Jackson.  5 MR. JACKSON:  Thank you, My Lord.  6 Q   Mr. Brody, if you turn to page 137 of your opinion.  7 The second paragraph you say:  8  9 "The reserve as a symbol of modern Indian life  10 embodies its own historical process."  11  12 And then near the bottom of the page, four lines  13 up:  14  15 "Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en reserve lands amount  16 to some forty-five square miles.  According to  17 white interpretations of events, the villages  18 that make up most of the forty-five square  19 miles represent the conclusion of the  20 historical process."  21  22 Could you explain what you mean there by the  23 historical process?  24 A  Well, I have three things in mind here.  First of all  25 there is the widely shared assumption that is in  26 effect, an evolutionist assumption, that tribal  27 peoples, hunting and gathering peoples, primitive  28 peoples, depending on how they are categorized,  29 aboriginal peoples will stage by stage arrive at a  30 social cultural economic condition like our own.  That  31 is to say they will go from being persons who roam  32 around hunting and fishing and trapping, to being  33 persons who live in a village, a town, a city with the  34 same general beliefs, the same general cultural habits  35 as our own.  And this evolutionist assumption, it may  36 be worth saying, is very widely shared in the  37 intellectual heritage of which we are a part, from the  38 Marxist's tradition on the left to the social  39 evolutionist tradition on the right of the political  40 spectrum through many anthropologists, anthropological  41 theories and so on.  There is this idea that the  42 natural evolution of human life is from the simple  43 tribal to the complex modern.  That's one of the  44 historical processes that I think at the highest level  45 of abstraction is at work here.  Much more --  46 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me.  My Lord, I am sure this is very  47 interesting, and I listen to it with a great deal of 15382  1 interest, and perhaps even pleasure, but, My Lord, I  2 check my assumptions at the door, and I don't think  3 it's appropriate for a witness to talk about "we".  If  4 he is talking about some other culture, let him talk  5 about it, but I leave my assumptions at the door, and  6 I don't want to deal with cross-examination on the  7 basis that I am depending on some particular point of  8 view that is ascribed to me or to my client for that  9 matter.  10 The issue here is fairly straightforward.  11 Ownership and jurisdiction is the claim, declarations  12 of right are sought, and that's what we have to deal  13 with.  And as I say, interesting as it may be, it is  14 totally irrelevant.  15 THE COURT:  What is — well, I'm sorry, I should hear what Mrs.  16 Koenigsberg says.  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Well, I certainly agree with Mr. Goldie, that  18 it's somewhat difficult how to approach the subject in  19 cross-examination.  20 THE COURT:  What issue does it go to, Mr. Jackson?  21 MR. JACKSON:  My Lord, in the Nishga case Chief Justice Davie,  22 in dealing with the Nishga claims, referred to the  23 Nishga in terms which suggested that they were at an  24 earlier stage of evolution, and their rights,  25 therefore, did not bespeak that which we would  26 characterize as propriety rights of common law.  It is  27 my submission that it is appropriate and relevant for  28 this court to hear evidence as to assumptions which  29 underlie conceptions relating to the common law.  30 THE COURT:  Whose assumptions?  31 MR. JACKSON:  The assumptions -- yesterday, My Lord, you made, I  32 think, a comment that anthropologists, perhaps, are  33 indeed appropriately dealing not only with other  34 cultures but our own cultures.  There is, I would  35 submit, an anthropology of ourselves, and as Mr. Brody  36 set out yesterday, in order to understand the nature  37 of the meeting place between native society and  38 non-native society and how that evolved, the extent to  39 which there was an accommodation of institutions, the  40 extent to which one jurisdiction gave way to another,  41 it is appropriate and necessary and therefore relevant  42 to consider both sides of that divide.  43 THE COURT:  Well, take this passage:  44  45 "According to white interpretations of events,  46 there are villages that make up most of the  47 forty-five square miles represent the 15383  1 conclusion of the historical process."  2  3 What white interpretations?  All white  4 interpretations?  It doesn't say some.  I don't know  5 if it means some, but -- isn't that just so wide  6 sweeping and so extensive that it's not keeping to  7 deal with it?  That's what every white person thinks,  8 and then again we still have the problem.  If he does,  9 so what.  We are talking about rights that arose at  10 the time of contact, as I read the authorities.  I  11 mean, I just have difficulty with the nature of this  12 evidence.  It seems to me it's way beyond what any  13 court has ever been asked to look at before.  I  14 suppose there have been things as broad as that --  15 isn't this -- hasn't this perhaps gone over the line?  16 MR. JACKSON:  Well, I would submit not, My Lord.  In light of  17 the fact that, as I said -- as any of his authorities,  18 the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court has fallen into  19 the trap of ethnocentricity.  Chief Justice Dixon in  20 the Simon case, My Lord, appropriately characterized  21 the statements made by a County Court judge in the  22 Silyboy case in 1929 as statements which were  23 inappropriate in understanding the cultural context in  24 which we should appropriately approach native people  25 in the adjudication of their rights or entitlements.  26 And it seems to me this evidence -- and this part of  27 the evidence, My Lord, is a small part, in terms of  28 understanding that cultural context in which  29 aboriginal rights, in which claims of native people  30 have been dealt with in the context of the asserted  31 claims of white government --  32 THE COURT:  Well, I must say I find that statement to be  33 terribly, terribly exaggerated, and when you get into  34 that area, you know that you are having a terrible  35 time coming to grips with anything that's going to be  36 useful.  I mean, I think if the witness wants to say  37 that's his view, I suppose that's all right.  He  38 doesn't say that.  He says this is what everybody  39 thinks.  I don't think that is even close to being  40 right.  And if -- is a witness entitled to -- well,  41 maybe that's his view.  Maybe he thinks every white  42 person thinks that.  43 MR. JACKSON:  Perhaps I can pursue that, My Lord.  44 THE COURT:  I think you better, because I think we are way, way  45 beyond where we can do anything that is manageable  46 here.  47 MR. JACKSON:  I am guided by Your Lordship's observations. 15384  1 Q   Mr. Brody, when you talk about white interpretations  2 of events, what are you referring to?  3 A  Well, I am trying to characterize a strong tendency in  4 a particular tradition of intellectual endeavour, that  5 is to say --  6 MR. GOLDIE:  Just a moment please.  I am sorry, My Lord, could  7 he repeat that.  Yes, go ahead.  8 THE WITNESS:  Strong tendency in a particular tradition of  9 intellectual endeavour.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  11 THE WITNESS:  I am trying to locate what is at the heart of the  12 thinking of the most pre-eminent figures in social and  13 anthropological theory, the guiding principles of our,  14 and I say our, I mean we the social scientists, we  15 social scientists work as we look at it historically.  16 There is -- and I said I am dealing at a high level of  17 generality here self-evidently -- there is a core to  18 the intellectual assumptions that are made within our  19 intellectual heritage, and these assumptions say a lot  20 about what is expected to happen to tribal and  21 aboriginal peoples.  And if I need to say more than  22 that, I will.  But I am also attempting to say -- I  23 think I began this answer some while ago by saying  24 there were three dimensions to the thought here.  So  25 far I have only identified the first.  26 THE COURT:  Well, I'm sorry, I don't understand them in the  27 first place.  28 MR. JACKSON:  Perhaps —  2 9 THE COURT:  Those are nice sounding words, but I don't know what  30 they meant.  31 MR. JACKSON:  Perhaps I'll leave this, My Lord.  32 THE COURT:  All right.  Whatever you wish.  33 MR. JACKSON:  34 Q   Mr. Brody, could you turn to page 144 of your report.  35 On this page you refer to the McKenna McBride  36 Commission.  What was the McKenna McBride Commission?  37 A   It was a commission that grew out of an understanding,  38 as I understand -- as I am -- as I understand it, made  39 in 1912 to hold hearings into grievances about land in  40 British Columbia.  And the commission was called  41 McKenna McBride because of the persons who were party  42 to the original accord, and as their names suggests,  43 it represents an inquiry with provincial and federal  44 dimensions.  45 Q   Did you in the course of coming to conclusions and  46 opinions in this chapter review the transcripts of the  47 McKenna McBride proceedings? 15385  1 A   Yes, I reviewed two sets of transcripts.  One is a  2 transcript of the proceedings within the Babine Lake  3 agency, and the other proceedings within the Stuart  4 Lake agency.  5 MR. JACKSON:   The Babine agency transcripts, My Lord, are  6 Exhibit 263-B, and the Stuart Lake agency is Exhibit  7 264-B.  8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  9 MR. JACKSON:  10 Q   Mr. Brody, what is the anthropological significance of  11 those transcripts, the purpose of your enquiries?  12 A  Well, because they are a transcript of what people  13 said at the time, in the case of the Babine Lake  14 agency at least, they tell us something of what the  15 chiefs and elders and other spokespersons had to say  16 about their dealings with the white man in general,  17 and the reserve system in particular.  18 Q   In reviewing the transcripts, did you find any  19 differences in approach of the Gitksan and the  20 Wet'suwet'en?  21 A   Yes.  The evidence from the transcripts indicates the  22 Gitksan were much more hostile towards the commission  23 than the Wet'suwet'en.  On the whole the Gitksan, if I  24 remember rightly, refused to talk about their  25 reserves, for example, saying that they wanted to talk  26 about their rights more generally.  Whereas the  27 Wet'suwet'en, on the basis of the evidence of the  28 transcript, seemed to go along with the terms of the  29 inquiry somewhat more.  And there are contacts for  30 this.  31 The Gitksan, I think I said yesterday, the Gitksan  32 and Wet'suwet'en have different kinds of cultural  33 dimensions.  On the basis of some of the things we  34 talked about yesterday, one would predict the Gitksan  35 would be more explicitly hostile to newcomers than  36 might the Wet'suwet'en.  That's perhaps less important  37 to this case than the circumstances of the commission  38 itself.  39 The transcript of the Stuart Lake agency indicates  40 that the missionaries are playing a very large role,  41 or a particular missionary is playing a very large  42 role, and when one does therefore -- what influence he  43 is bringing to bear on what people say.  Also in the  44 Stuart Lake agency hearings a large block of it is not  45 in fact direct evidence of the people.  It's accounts  46 of what the people think by an interlocutor.  47 And finally, and perhaps most important of all, 15386  1 one has to remember always that the Wet'suwet'en were  2 coming to those hearings in 1912 in the wake of the  3 loss of their lands, the damage to their houses, the  4 immense pressure that had been brought to bear on them  5 by the advance of the settlement frontier in the  6 Bulkley Valley.  So it may be no exaggeration to say  7 that the Wet'suwet'en were really under extreme  8 pressure at that time, and felt that they were  9 struggling to retain something --  10 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry.  My Lord, that's a conclusion for Your  11 Lordship to reach.  If the witness wants to say these  12 are things which the courts should be aware of, I have  13 got no objection to that, but for the witness to  14 suggest certain conclusions, is really for the court.  15 MR. JACKSON:  Well, My Lord —  16 THE COURT:  I don't think there can be any doubt about that.  17 The question is whether that's what's happening or  18 not.  19 MR. JACKSON:  My Lord, the province in its Statement of Defence  20 pleads that whatever aboriginal rights the  21 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en have, which of course they deny,  22 those rights were voluntarily given up when the  23 Wet'suwet'en and the Gitksan requested reserves.  The  24 question of what is voluntariness, of course, is a  25 legal question.  It has an evidentiary basis of  26 necessity, and it is relevant to hear the extent to  27 which there were pressures, and also to hear from an  28 expert the extent to which those pressures in the  29 context historically and culturally were substantial.  30 And it is my submission that what the witness is  31 relating to you is that conclusion.  It's not  32 suggested as being a legal conclusion of necessity,  33 and in no way is proffered with a view to precluding  34 Your Lordship's ultimate judgment as a matter of law  35 as to what is voluntariness.  36 THE COURT:  Well, I can understand the approach, Mr. Jackson,  37 when we are talking about the culture of the Indian  38 people, and one has to be generous, which is not  39 really the word I am looking for, but quite relaxed  40 about the extent to which evidence can go, because  41 it's a very ill defined kind of a study.  But when you  42 are taking hard facts, such as the McKenna McBride,  43 you have got terms of reference, you have got a  44 transcript, you know it was said, then it seems to me  45 that there isn't much that can be said about that.  It  46 speaks for itself.  47 If I am going to hear evidence of learned people 15387  1 60 or 70 years later, who now analyze the words and  2 are going to tell me what was in the hearts of the  3 speakers, I think that I am almost being imposed upon,  4 because if that's admissible, well then your friends  5 could call a few people and say well, I don't think  6 that's what they meant when they said these things, or  7 I don't think that represents the context in which it  8 is said.  It is really something quite different, and  9 I am on an investigation that doesn't lead me  10 anywhere.  Am I being imposed upon by being asked to  11 get into areas that are so foreign and so far removed  12 from Canadian law that I am really going beyond any  13 reasonable bounds of restraint?  14 MR. JACKSON:  My Lord, this witness is not offering opinions  15 that when a Wet'suwet'en chief said 'x' he meant 'y'.  16 This witness is seeking to place the culture and  17 historical context in which the Wet'suwet'en and the  18 Gitksan dealt with the McKenna McBride Commission.  19 And that is, in my submission, relevant information in  20 understanding the nature of the pressure, in  21 understanding the extent to which there was  22 voluntariness.  It is not intended to take the pit and  23 substance of what a particular chief said and say they  24 didn't mean that.  It's to give Your Lordship a  25 context in which Your Lordship can interpret what was  26 said according to --  27 THE COURT:  Well, I don't question it — if you can find a legal  28 argument in support of the admissibility of  29 anything -- and of course we used to have Mr. Justice  30 Dryer of this court who had a theory that nothing was  31 admissible.  And I am just not sure that I am not  32 being taken beyond the permissible spectrum that I am  33 being asked to say anything is admissible.  Surely  34 there must be limits, and I am just having trouble  35 finding what they are here.  I have a terrible feeling  36 that I am way beyond them, and you are asking me to go  37 way beyond them.  38 MR. JACKSON:  My Lord, perhaps it might be appropriate, given  39 the nature of a number of my friend's objections to  40 date, and Your Lordship, I think, invited this  41 yesterday or Monday, in light of some of the issues  42 which are raised by Mr. Brody's opinion, my friend has  43 taken timely objection, and it may be that a number of  44 these issues ought to be and would be appropriate for  45 myself or my friends to address you on those issues at  46 another time.  And perhaps in the context of those  47 matters which Your Lordship is going to be considering 15388  1 over the summer, the question of the bounds of  2 admissibility of this kind of evidence, perhaps, is --  3 THE COURT:  Well, I'm quite -- I am quite content to sit here  4 and absorb whatever I can, but I have an objection.  I  5 have got to deal with it.  If I didn't have an  6 objection, you wouldn't be hearing from me.  But I  7 just have an uneasy feeling that I am not sitting here  8 as a judge any more.  I am being asked to sit here in  9 some other capacity, and naturally I am uneasy about  10 that.  11 It's like when you are in a contest or a game and  12 they suddenly say we are not going to play it  13 according to the rules.  I just have that sense that I  14 am asked to listen to material that is not something  15 that a judge should be hearing.  It may be that that's  16 not so.  You see, I have a feeling that your clients  17 and their supporters think I am sitting in the same  18 capacity that Tom Berger was sitting in.  Of course he  19 wasn't.  He didn't have any rules to play with.  He  20 had his own rules, and he is entitled to do that, and  21 and I am not, and it is counsel's job to keep me  22 within the legal permits.  And you and your side have  23 got to get in as much useful evidence as you can, and  24 your friend is entitled to make objection.  When he  25 makes objections, I then have to come out of my  26 passive role and try and deal with it, and I just  27 don't know how to deal with it.  28 I don't know how to deal with the evidence, let  29 alone the objection, but it seems to me that the  30 suggestion made now may be a useful one, except we  31 have to -- we have to get through the evidence.  32 That's the main responsibility of the trial judge.  We  33 have got to get through the trial, and I don't think  34 we can avoid this problem.  Putting it off is not  35 going to help, not going to change.  I think the  36 argument has to be based on what -- it has to be based  37 upon something.  We have to have terms of reference.  38 Now, the report is there of the -- we could  39 argue -- have a very nice argument on the report, but  4 0 you want to supplement the report by viva voce  41 evidence, and that's where we are having the trouble.  42 I think I have to -- I don't feel very clear about  43 it, but I think I have to say to Mr. Goldie that I  44 think the objection he takes is one that I can't deal  45 with, and that I have to include it in the broader  46 objection he made at the beginning, which is under  47 reserve, and I think we should go ahead and do the 15389  1 best we can.  I don't know how to deal with the  2 objection, and one of the reasons is I don't know how  3 I am going to deal with the evidence, but I think we  4 should go on to hear the evidence and have the  5 argument later.  That's the best I can do with it.  6 MR. JACKSON:  I am duly advised of Your Lordship's concerns, and  7 I think that it might well be appropriate when we  8 finish this evidence to review the transcript and to  9 suggest an appropriate time, and perhaps shape the  10 nature of the arguments which ought to be made to deal  11 with Your Lordship's concerns and my friends'  12 obj ections.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you.  But let's get onto the evidence.  Let's  14 do the best we can.  15 MR. JACKSON:  16 Q   Had you finished your last answer, Mr. Brody?  17 MR. GOLDIE:  I don't think he did.  18 THE WITNESS:  Well, I don't remember what the question was.  19 MR. JACKSON:  20 Q   You were addressing the -- if I can -- in terms of  21 this historical process -- the second and third of  22 those matters.  You had identified it was more than  23 one factor in understanding the historical process.  24 A  Well, yes, I am remembering now.  The two other issues  25 here, I think, are first of all the question of  26 administering the welfare system that is part of this  27 society, and that is much more easily administered to  28 people who live on reserves than people who live  29 scattered in small communties all over the place.  And  30 thirdly, there were persons who required and expected  31 to get farms where there were hunting territories, and  32 it was in the interests of those persons, obviously,  33 that the people ceased to have hunting territories and  34 had instead reserves.  35 Q   I recall, Mr. Brody, that we in fact had gone beyond  36 that point, and according to my notes we had started  37 to address the McKenna McBride Commission.  38 A   You are right.  I am sorry.  39 Q   You had identified a difference you had observed in  40 the ways in which the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en  41 approached the commission.  Can I refer you to tab 15  42 of volume 3.  And if you turn to page -- the second  43 page of that document, page 128, this is a meeting of  44 the commission with Indians, at Hazelton, July the  45 13th, 1915, and it is the evidence of Bulkley Lake  46 Isaac.  And if you turn to page 2 near the bottom of  47 the line.  I will read, My Lord: 15390  1  2 "Q   Is there any white man living near you?  3 A   There is one white man living near me now.  4 Q   Does that white man claim the land that you are  5 using now?  6 A   The white man in living on the land that I  7 claim.  8 Q   What is his name?  9 A   Bill Clarke.  10 Q   How long has he been there?  11 A   Four years.  12 Q   Have you had any trouble with the white men?  13 A   Yes, that man is all the time making trouble -  14 he is always trying to drive me off the land.  15 Q   Suppose we find that this man Clarke owns the  16 land that your house is on, would you be  17 satisfied with any land near there and along  18 the lake?  19 A   The white man has taken up all the good land  20 around the lake.  21 Q   We will get you that land that you are on if we  22 can get it; but we can't promise you - is there  23 any land around Decker Lake that you could get?  24 A  We don't know whether white man have taken up  25 all the good land around Decker Lake or not.  26 Q   But there is some good land around that lake is  27 there?  28 A   Yes, but I think it is all taken up by white  2 9 men.  30 Q   And I suppose it is the same with Maxim Lake?  31 A   I don't know.  32 Q   If you get a piece of land at Burns Lake would  33 that satisfy you?  34 A   I think that has all been taken up by the  35 whites.  36 Q   But if you could get a good piece of land  37 around any of these lakes would you be  38 satisfied?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   What tribe of Indians do you belong to?  41 A   I have always lived at Bulkley Lake."  42  43 Is that the -- a transcript, is that a form of  44 evidence -- perhaps first I could ask you, do you know  45 who Bulkley Lake Isaac is?  46 A   I know he is a Wet'suwet'en.  I don't know his chief  4 7 name. 15391  1 Q   Okay.  2 A   I don't recall it.  3 Q   Is the form of that evidence, and I am not asking you  4 to comment on the substance of the evidence, is that  5 similar to other evidence that you read in relation to  6 McKenna McBride hearings at Stuart Lake?  7 A   Yes, this is very similar to the evidence in the  8 Babine agency's transcripts and to some of the  9 evidence in the Stuart Lake agency transcript.  As I  10 think I said earlier, some of the Stuart lake agency  11 stuff doesn't have this form, but is a sort of a  12 general representation of the Indians' points of view  13 through an interlocutor.  And what is important about  14 this, when you asked me earlier on what is important  15 anthropologically about McKenna McBride, I think what  16 is important about it is that you do have access here  17 to what people in fact said in 1915.  18 Q   If you could turn to tab 16 of document book 3.  19 A   Right.  20 Q   Which is headed "Statement of Indian Isaac".  Do you  21 know who Indian Isaac is?  22 A  Well, I think he is Bulkley Lake Isaac.  I noticed  23 when I reviewed this document a long time ago that he  24 refers to his home being on Bulkley Lake.  I think  25 therefore it is probably a different name for the same  26 person.  27 Q   And I'll read this to you, Mr. Brody, and ask for your  28 comment.  This is a third of the way down the page, My  29 Lord:  30  31 "Indian Isaac, continuing, said that the land  32 on which he and his people had always lived, at  33 Bulkley Lake, was claimed by the telegraph  34 linesman who had ordered him and his family to  35 get out.  The linesman was Billy Clark.  Clark  36 had said that if he (Isaac) did not get out, he  37 would be sent to prison.   He (Isaac) had had a  38 house and stable on the land claimed by Clark,  39 and when he was out hunting (leaving his wife  40 and his children in his house) the white man  41 had burned down his place with everything in  42 it.  That had been about four years ago.  His  43 wife had had hard work to save the children and  44 had had her foot badly burned.  He had reported  45 the matter to Agent Loring and the Agent had  46 given him some medicine for his wife's burned  47 foot, and had told him to wait and the other 15392  1 matters would be attended to.  Whenever he  2 spoke to Mr. Loring about the white man turning  3 him off the place and burning the house, Mr.  4 Loring told him to wait.  He now had no land  5 and no home and he wanted the commissioners to  6 help him."  7  8 Is that significant in terms of your opinions  9 relating to the context in which the Wet'suwet'en  10 approached the McKenna McBride Royal Commission?  11 A   It indicates the extent to which the Wet'suwet'en are  12 speaking against the background of dispossession and  13 against the background of the historic pressures we  14 identified when talking about the arrival of settlers  15 in that area.  And one can see in these words some of  16 the difficulties that Bulkley Lake Isaac has and  17 presumably is experiencing at this time in 1915.  18 Q   Could you turn to tab 17.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  I take it 16 is — precedes in time 15?  20 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, I think my friend is right, My Lord.  21st of  21 May, 1915 is tab 16, and July the 13th, tab 15.  22 Q   If you could turn to tab 17.  And, My Lord, this is a  23 meeting with the Moricetown Band and Tribe of Indians  24 at Moricetown on the 26th of April, 1915, and the  25 Reverend Father Godfrey addresses the Commission on  26 behalf of the Chief and Indians as follows:  27  28 "Mr. Chairman, Gentlemen of this Commission,  29 Indian Inspector and Indian Agent: we are very  30 glad to have the opportunity of addressing you  31 today.  We are glad you have come around and it  32 has been a very long time that we have been  33 looking for the pleasure of seeing you.  To  34 speak for myself, personally, I have been  35 asking questions time and time again, and the  36 Indians have been coming to me almost every day  37 asking when you are going to come around and  38 see them.  The reason for this desire on the  39 part of the Indians is they feel they have some  40 real grievances, or the a least they have needs  41 which they expect this Commission is able to  42 then them with, and they have asked me to talk  43 for them."  44  45 Do you draw any anthropological significance in  46 understanding the context within which the  47 Wet'suwet'en approach the Royal Commission from those 15393  1 words?  2 A  Well, first of all this is an anthropological  3 disappointment.  What I really would like to have is  4 the peoples' words transcribed, and not have them  5 represented through a missionary as their  6 interlocutor.  It's evidence, of course, of the  7 important role that Father Godfrey had, and perhaps  8 Catholic missionaries in the area generally had in the  9 lives of the people.  10 Q   If you could turn to tab 18.  And this is a meeting of  11 the Royal Commission with the Hagwilget band or tribe  12 of Indians at their reserve near Hazelton on the 21st  13 of April, 1915.  And Chief Charles is addressing the  14 Commission.  And halfway down the page, My Lord, you  15 will see "witness", and "witness" has been struck out  16 and "chief" has been inserted above it.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. JACKSON:  "Witness", I would suspect, is the original  19 statement continuing.  20  21 "If you want to help us there is only three  22 things we want - The first thing just people  23 dead.  It is just the same thing as tying them  24 up and letting them die.  25 MR. COMMISSIONER MCKENNA:  You mean to restrict  26 or confine the Indians to their reserves, you  27 mean that is killing you?  28 A   Yes:  And the second thing is about the  29 schools - we want to learn something - that is  30 one thing we want to get from the government.  31 From Fraser Lake to here and Kitimat and  32 Babine, this used to belong to us people  33 before; now all the white people they all have  34 covered up and all these hunting grounds is  35 just the same as a bank where we have our money  36 and all these little lakes where we used to get  37 our fish, is just the sale as a kitchen box  38 where we put our food.  I want this place to be  39 as big as you can make it so that we can make  40 our living."  41  42 Do you have any comment on that from your  43 perspective as an anthropologist?  44 A  Well, this is a very strong statement from a  45 Wet'suwet'en, and I have said that I anthropologically  46 would predict that the Wet'suwet'en would tend to make  47 less strong statements than the Gitksan, and from the 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11 MR.  12  13  14 THE  15 MR.  16  17  18  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21  22  23  24 THE  2 5 MR.  26  27  28  29  30 THE  31 MR.  32  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  37  38 THE  3 9 MS.  40  41  42  43  44  45  4 6 THE  4 7 MR.  15394  context of the times and so on I also anticipated, as  it were, that the Wet'suwet'en statements would be  cautious.  But here is a very strong statement about  reserves, as I understand it.  People saying that to  be restricted or confined to a reserve is somehow  fatal.  I assume people mean to the culture rather  than to themselves.  And that's a very important  statement coming from the Wet'suwet'en at these  hearings, given all the settings into which one could  place the hearings.  JACKSON:  My Lord, Mr. Grant has a matter on which he wishes  to address the Court.  This would be a convenient time  for me to stop.  All right.  Just a very brief matter, My Lord.  I would ask for  leave to release Exhibit 5, Exhibit 656, Exhibit 718,  719 and 720.  Those are maps, and I would ask leave to  have them released to myself.  For any limited time or generally or whatever?  Just for, I think, for a few days.  If my friends --  of course I would have them -- I would intend to keep  them just outside the courtroom, if my friends needed  any of them.  Exhibit 5 is the map --  I remember, yes.  And 656 is the large version of the desk maps.  718  through to 720 are three trapline maps.  Those three  maps I could -- I would keep them available here, as  my friends may wish them for cross-examination, and I  would -- could return them in time for the cross.  COURT:  Any difficulty with that, Mr. Goldie?  GOLDIE:  I don't think there is any problem.  718, 719 and  720 were characterized at one time as being very  fragile, and substantial conditions were imposed upon  us to ensure that that was taken care of, and I assume  my friend will be careful.  As I was one of the persons expressing that concern,  I certainly will be careful.  Ms. Koenigsberg?  KOENIGSBERG:  I wonder if it's appropriate to speak to the  issue of scheduling for this witness, and a concern I  have of when we might be starting the  cross-examination and the production of the Bear Lake  proceedings, so that we have an opportunity at  least -- if it is only as a tape recording, it is  going to take some time to hear it.  Any news on the Bear Lake tape?  I had made my enquiries.  Somebody was bringing that  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  GRANT  COURT  COURT  GRANT 15395  1 to Vancouver today, and I have been here, and as soon  2 as court is over I am going to find out where it is  3 and the status of it.  4 THE COURT:  Will you finish this witness tomorrow, Mr. Jackson?  5 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, My Lord.  6 THE COURT:  Is that close enough?  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  8 THE COURT:  Are you going first, Mrs. Koenigsberg, or Mr.  9 Goldie?  10 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Mr. Goldie.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Goldie will be.  We will adjourn  12 'til 10 o'clock.  Thank you.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court will adjourn 'til  14 10:00 a.m. tomorrow.  15  16 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO APRIL 13, 1989 AT 10:00  17 A.M.)  18  19 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  20 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  21 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  22 SKILL AND ABILITY.  23  24  2 5 LORI OXLEY  2 6 OFFICIAL REPORTER  27 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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