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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-09-23] British Columbia. Supreme Court Sep 23, 1988

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 3202  Proceedings  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 September 23rd, 1988.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  7 Friday the 23rd Day of September, 1988.  In the matter  8 of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen,  9 continuing, my lord.  10 Mr. Sterritt, I remind you, you are still under  11 oath.  12 THE COURT:  It's not just in this case that everything takes  13 longer and longer, but sorry for the delay, it was  14 longer than I thought it would be.  15 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I have just a brief matter.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 MR. GRANT:  It sounds from your voice your cold isn't as bad as  18 yesterday.  19 THE COURT:  It's much better.  Thank you.  20 MR. GRANT:  Which is a relief to all of us.  21 I have a case that I referred to yesterday in  22 argument, the S. & K. Processors case, and I quoted  23 from it in part.  It was quoted in the Phillips  24 Barrett case, but I have a copy.  I provided it to my  25 friends, and in light of the fact you reserved I  26 thought I should give you the full reasons.  27 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  28 MR. GRANT:  I think I spoke to the matter yesterday.  The  29 reference is marked that I wanted to point out to you.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Goldie.  31 MR. RUSH:  Just before my learned friend commences, my lord, I  32 wish to advise you that we have been in touch with the  33 two expert witnesses who were to have been called next  34 week, and they have -- we have advised them that they  35 will not be called, and that is convenient for them  36 and they can be called at a later time, so we can  37 proceed with the cross-examination of Mr. Sterritt  38 through next week, and, in my submission, my lord, if  39 Mr. Sterritt is not completed next week that we are  40 available to proceed into the week following.  41 THE COURT:  I'm not.  I'm diving into the pools of the court of  42 appeal next week.  I'm in that court all next week.  43 MR. RUSH:  I see.  Well, my lord, we feel that there should  44 be -- Mr. Sterritt should continue and finish, and he  45 would like to do that, and so if it requires us to  46 make arrangements in respect of the experts in the  47 week after the week off then we are prepared to do 3203  Proceedings  1 that.  2 THE COURT:  Well, we'll see how we get along and what Mr.  3 Goldie's position is when he gets to whatever stage he  4 gets to.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Your lordship has made a ruling, and I will inform  6 the court when I come to the point where I require an  7 adjournment.  8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  And it will be next week according to my present  10 estimate.  In the course of the week that is.  11 MR. RUSH:  Perhaps you can illuminate me as to what ruling  12 you're referring to.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  The one his lordship made after the discussion we  14 had and I offered to stand down at the end of this  15 week and allow your experts to be called next week.  16 I'll provide my friend with the transcript reference.  17 MR. RUSH:  I want to make sure we all understand what ruling it  18 is that has been made.  19 THE COURT:  I think the ruling was that Mr. Sterritt would not  20 be stood down when there is still time next week to  21 call the two experts that had been scheduled and Mr.  22 Sterritt resume after that.  You opposed that, and I  23 agreed with you that the circumstances were such that  24 I would not direct you to call -- stand the witness  25 down and call your experts, but that I would hear Mr.  26 Goldie on the question of the witness being stood down  27 without those witnesses being called in order to give  28 him time for the preparation he says is going to be  29 required because of the late delivery of some reports,  30 and that I think all I ruled is that Mr. Sterritt's  31 evidence will not be interrupted, and I did not rule  32 that there would or would not be an adjournment during  33 the course of the cross-examination.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my lord, I have only this to say, and I don't  35 want to anticipate any submission.  I have not yet --  36 not even yet digested the material which was sent to  37 me in September.  We have got as far as the mechanical  38 index which tells us who is where, and we have  39 integrated that with the material we got in June,  4 0 which purportedly was everything.  I haven't even got  41 to the point of considering that, and when I get to  42 the point where that's going to require, or going to  43 interfere with my cross-examination, my lord, I will  44 have to have that, because that was the -- I did not  45 take an objection when this material came in that we  46 were entitled to 30 days notice.  I said I will  47 continue until I reach a point where I cannot.  So -- 3204  Proceedings  1 and that's what I'm going to do.  2 My lord, yesterday at the conclusion I had made  3 reference to -- right at the end of the day to the map  4 which is labelled March the 9th, 1987, and I had said  5 that that was a very misleading, or perhaps not very  6 misleading, it was a misleading date because no such  7 map had been produced to us at that time.  And I made  8 reference to Mr. Sterritt's examination for discovery  9 at volume 4 question 1897 at page 427, and --  10 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Volume 4?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Volume 4 of Mr. Sterritt's examination for  12 discovery at page 427, and I made reference to Mr.  13 Grant's observations at that time.  And I should note  14 that the date of that discovery was March the 25th,  15 1987.  And at that time, of course, we did not have  16 the map which was supposed to be appended to the  17 summary of what was then Mr. Sterritt's expert  18 opinion.  And I made reference to this in my question.  19  20 "Well if we had a map in its final form  21 which depicted house boundaries I would  22 be happy to work with that, but so far  23 as one has not been produced that is the  24 best we have to work with, Mr. Sterritt.  25 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment, Mr. Goldie.  For  26 the record I have said to you over and  27 over again it is described in Marvin  28 George's report which you received  29 yesterday.  He is working on such a map.  30 He is finalizing the boundaries and as  31 soon as such a map is available we will  32 present it."  33  34 Your lordship will appreciate that appended to Mr.  35 Sterritt's summary was a metes and bounds description  36 which we were informed was the work of Mr. Marvin  37 George, and that's the reference that Mr. Grant is  38 referring to.  Now, my friend said that that clearly  39 referred to a map which was of the external boundaries  40 alone.  He put it this way.  This is volume 132 of the  41 transcript at page 8200.  42 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Of the trial transcript?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Yesterday's transcript which was volume 132.  4 4    THE COURT:  Yes.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  At line 37.  46 "MR. RUSH:  My lord, the discussion on page  47 427 is not in relation to the map that 3205  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  subsequently was identified as and dated  March of 1987.  It appears that it  relates to the question of house  boundaries, which would mean an internal  boundary map, and I take it that the  discussion there is in relation to  the map that was subsequently identified  as Exhibit 5."  THE COURT:  What page is that again, please?  MR. GOLDIE:  8200, my lord.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. GOLDIE:  Of course, no map whether of the external  boundaries alone or of the external boundaries and the  internal boundaries had been produced to us at this  point, this point being March the 27th, 1987.  We were  quite clearly led to believe that the map which would  form part of Mr. Sterritt's opinion, that is to say  which would be appended to his opinion, and which we  understood would form part of it, and which would very  properly bear some date in March, would include house  boundaries.  And I refer to the examination for  discovery on the -- on the following day, March the  26th, 1987, and I refer to questions 2331 to 2349  commencing at page 583.  THE COURT:  That's in volume five?  MR. GOLDIE:  That's in volume five.  THE COURT:  And the page number again?  MR. GOLDIE:  I said 583.  I meant 582.  THE COURT:  Okay.  MR. GOLDIE:  Beginning at 2331.  "Q Mr. Sterritt, I want to ask you some  further questions about your report,  Exhibit 16."  That had been produced two days earlier.  "Primarily to clarify what you have said  in it so that we have a proper  understanding of the process that you  have followed.  Now, as you say at page  two, the end result of your boundary  work will appear on a map.  (EXHIBIT SHOWN TO THE WITNESS)  Q   And you say that it -- and your  instructions for its preparation are in  the process of being finalized, and Mr. 3206  Proceedings  1 Grant explained earlier that he is  2 waiting for base maps before the map is  3 finalized, but are your instructions  4 with respect to the preparation  5 finalized?  6 A   No, they are not.  7 Q   What remains to be done by you before  8 your instructions to the cartographer  9 and in their final form?  10 A   I would sit down and go over the map  11 myself to ensure that the boundaries are  12 as I have been instructed to do, and  13 that the place names and also -- and  14 that is in the process of being done,  15 the maps of the individual territories  16 are being done.  17 Q   Yes.  18 A   Yes, are in process.  19 Q   That process that you have described is  20 more in the nature of proof-reading,  21 really, would that not be so?  22 A   No, no, the entire map is in process,  23 and it is not a matter -- I mean the  24 final one point will be proof-reading.  25 Q   Yes.  26 A   There are things that have to be done  27 before I can get it proof-read.  28 Q   I understand that, but have you any  29 further instructions to give those who  30 are preparing the maps?  31 A  Well, the —  32 Q   In other words, is all the data  33 complete?  34 A   There is some data I am confirming.  35 Q   I see.  Without going into detail,  36 whereabouts is the data incomplete?  37 MR. GRANT:  Well, I think that he, to answer  38 it he may have to go into detail to  39 answer that question.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  When I said 'Without going into  41 detail' I just wanted to get the area of  42 the map in respect of which the data is  43 incomplete; that is what I had in mind.  44 A   I can't say that the data is incomplete.  45 I want to sit down with the hereditary  46 chiefs and discuss that with them before  47 I give my final instructions to Marvin 3207  Proceedings  1 George, the cartographer.  2 Q   Well, is there a particular area that is  3 subject to the final step that you have  4 just described or is this a step that  5 you wish to go through with respect to  6 the whole of the house territories as  7 shown on the map?  8 A   No, there, it's not the entire, entire  9 maps.  It's parts of the map, and there  10 are three or four areas.  11 Q   Can you recall them from memory, the  12 three or four that are subject to this  13 final process?  14 A   Yes, one of the areas is Xsi --  15 Q   What is the English name of the holder  16 of that?  17 A   There are several people in the area.  18 Delgamuukw, Wiigyet and Waiget, and that  19 is one area.  Another area is in the  20 area of Anskeexs and I wish to  21 talk to Lelt.  And the other person I  22 want to talk to is Sakxum Higookx.  23 Q   Lelt is Fred Johnson?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And who was the second, please?  26 A   Sakxum Higookx, Vernon  2 7 Smith.  28 Q   Yes.  2 9 A  And the —  30 Q   Well, perhaps that is enough for my  31 purposes.  32 A   Okay.  33 Q   As I said my questions --  34 A   Sure.  35 Q   -- Are aimed at understanding the  36 process that you are going through.  37 A   Right.  38 Q   Can you describe for me, if you have not  39 already done so, what it is that you  40 would be doing with these people that  41 constitutes the final step in the  42 process that culminates in the map?  43 A   I want to -- in those areas that are --  44 there are a couple of things I want to  45 check, but primarily it is a fairly  46 complex area and I want to be sure that  47 what I am doing is what they told me to 320?  Proceedings  1 do. "  2  3 Now, your lordship will see -- well, just as a  4 matter of -- no, I'll deal with that in a minute.  5 Your lordship will see that the entire discussion  6 is based upon a map which is to be forthcoming which  7 contains internal boundaries as well as external  8 boundaries, and that so far as the defendants are  9 concerned that was not forthcoming until May the 20th,  10 1987.  The map that my friend calls the map of March  11 the 9th, if it has any relationship to the examination  12 for discovery, or to Mr. Sterritt's summary, turns up  13 as appended to the statement of claim, which was  14 amended on May.  15 Now, in any event, my lord, the point that I was  16 making is that so far as this defendant was concerned  17 no map labelled March the 9th, 1987, if it implies  18 that it was in being on that date, or that it was  19 produced on that date was, in fact, either so far as  20 we're aware in being or produced.  21 Now, there are other references, but that one  22 seemed to me to be sufficient for the purpose.  23 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, I have a comment to make.  We have  24 been treated to a lengthy reading from the examination  25 for discovery, but I wish to point out just two  26 points.  Firstly, the discussion yesterday focused on  27 the date of the map which is in respect of map overlay  28 6, which on the overlay is described "Map of Metes and  29 Bounds Description of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en  30 Territories in Appendix A of Sterritt Summary of  31 Opinion."  The focus of the questions yesterday was in  32 relation to that.  My learned friend this morning says  33 that we, meaning, I take it, the provincial defendant,  34 were led to believe that a map would include the house  35 boundaries.  That seems somewhat puzzling to me,  36 because in relation to the summary opinion of Mr.  37 Sterritt, which Mr. Goldie had at the time, the metes  38 and bounds description was of the external boundaries  39 and not the internal boundaries.  The passages that my  40 learned friend has just read to you, and the passage  41 read to you yesterday were in relation to a map that  42 was in process with regard to the internal boundaries.  43 The map that was subsequently produced of the metes  44 and bounds description that was contained in the  45 summary report was a mapping of the description in  46 that report which was of external boundaries which is  47 what Mr. Sterritt's summary opinion report addressed 8209  Proceedings  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 at that time.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  I'm —  3 MR. GOLDIE:  The fact remains that neither map was produced  4 until May.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  And I don't think my friend challenges that, and in  7 my submission it makes a date clearly misleading.  8  9 NEIL STERRITT, Resumed:  10  11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE CONTINUED:  12 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, at the conclusion of the day we  13 were discussing the territory of George Turner, or  14 Yal, on the western boundary of the claims area.  You  15 recall that?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And that territory was removed because you had  18 concluded that it was Nishga Territory and that if Mr.  19 Turner had a claim it should be made in the context of  20 the Nishga claim; is that correct?  21 A   I believe Stanley Williams spoke to this in his  22 commission.  23 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt, excuse me for just a minute.  If  24 I'm not correct say no and then go on with your  25 explanation, if I am correct say yes and continue with  26 your explanation, but it would be of assistance if you  27 could determine at the beginning whether my question  28 could be answered with a yes or a no.  Could you do  29 that?  30 A  Well, there are points at which I may want to explain  31 something and --  32 Q   Please do, but can you answer my question with a yes  33 or no followed by an explanation?  34 A   I may have to work through your question and  35 determine -- determine that.  36 Q   Well, if you feel that you cannot answer it with a yes  37 or no please proceed.  38 A   It is my understanding that that area, or a portion of  39 the area that was identified on the west side of the  40 Gyehl Din, that's G-Y-E-H-L space D-I-N, that's the  41 Kiteen River on the map, that's K-I-T-E-E-N, a portion  42 of that area that had formerly been identified was the  43 territory of Yal, but that it was in connection with  44 their Nishga relatives, and that as a result of that  45 that it should be excluded from the claim area.  46 Q   Yeah.  Well, Mr. Sterritt, didn't you conclude that if  47 there was a claim to be made by Yal to that territory 8210  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 that it was within Nishga Territory?  2 A  Well, I couldn't be certain about whether it's Nishga  3 Territory or Kitwancool Territory, but it was the  4 family of Yal that brought that to my attention that  5 they had Nishga relatives, and that it was a matter  6 for them to work out there, and that it should be  7 removed.  8 Q   Yes.  I'm going to read from volume 4 of your  9 examination for discovery, page 424, question 1891 to  10 1905.  11  12 Q   So, what is shown on Exhibit 5 as the  13 territory of, you say, George Turner is  14 the only one whose interest in that has  15 now been removed from the claim in this  16 action.  Did Mr. Turner give you  17 instructions in that regard?  18 A  What I said, yes, Mr. Goldie, is that I  19 have done, I have sat down and tried  20 to be much more particular with the  21 people who are knowledgeable about this  22 area and to define that, and the  23 area, that particular area is, to begin  24 with, in my opinion, is not as large as  25 the area described by this line  26 (indicating) the line that is there on  27 the map, on Exhibit number 5  28 (indicating)."  29  30 Do you remember being asked that question, and  31 giving that answer, and was the answer true?  32 A  Well, can I see the passage, please?  You asked three  33 questions there.  34 Q   Well, I'm just asking you if the answer you gave  35 was --  36 A  Well, I'd like to look at it.  37 Q   I'm sorry.  I did not give you the -- yes, I did.  I  38 gave you the answer, and was the answer true.  And you  39 want to see the answer that you gave?  40 A   Yes.  Where did you begin there with your reading?  41 Q   Question 1891.  42 A   First of all, yes, I did give that answer.  4 3 Q   And was it true?  44 A  And, secondly, I -- the answer to Mr. Turner's  45 question, or you said did Mr. Turner give you  46 instructions in that regard, and I said yes.  And the  47 fact that the area was smaller than I had thought 8211  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 before was also my understanding.  Yes, that's true.  2 Q   Yes.  So the answer to my question was the answer true  3 was yes; is that correct?  4 A  Well, I want to go back.  5 Q   Please answer the question was your answer true.  The  6 answer you gave at that time, was it true when you  7 gave it?  8 A   Yes, it was.  9 Q   Thank you.  10 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, what is Exhibit 5?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Exhibit 5 is Exhibit 102 in this case.  12 THE COURT:  That is —  13 MR. RUSH:  Overlay map 4.  14 THE COURT:  Overlay map 4.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  16 THE COURT:  Thank you.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  18 Q   Question 1892.  19  20 "Q   Yes.  21 A  And is considerably smaller, and there  22 is a history about that area.  Yal lived  23 on the Nass River, Yal lived on the  24 Nass River and in his migration from  25 the Nass possibly back -- I have to  26 leave it to the people themselves to say  27 their own histories more accurately than  28 I can, but my understanding is that, on  29 this, on his journey back from the Nass  30 he came over the mountain and claimed  31 the creek, that area (indicating) and  32 he had a relationship with the Nishga,  33 who was over there (indicating).  It was  34 recognized that he may have a claim in  35 that area, but my opinion, based on the  36 research and work that I have done with  37 the hereditary chiefs, is that area  38 falls within Nishga Territory and that  39 Yal, if there is a claim by Yal to that  40 territory it is in Nishga Territory  41 because of his relationship there."  42  43 Is that answer, or was that answer true?  44 A  Well, I understand that from a discussion or  45 information of Stanley Williams that there is some  46 question about whether that is Kitwancool area or a  47 Nishga area, and that's not for me to resolve.  So 8212  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 that part of this, as I mentioned, they can say their  2 own histories better than I can, and in any event, the  3 area was an area to be removed.  4 Q   Mr. Sterritt, the question was was that answer true.  5 Namely, when you gave me that answer did you believe  6 in the truthfulness of it?  7 A  Well, I believed what I had said there at the time,  8 but there was further information later.  9 Q   Well, I haven't come to that, Mr. Sterritt.  The  10 question that I put to you is was the answer true.  11 Namely, was the answer true when you gave it to me.  12 MR. RUSH:  Yes, he just answered the question.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  He's answered that.  14 Q   The question is now is the answer true today.  And  15 you've answered that question, haven't you?  16 A   Is this answer true today?  17 Q   Yes.  That's my next question that I was coming to.  18 And you've already answered that by telling his  19 lordship that Mr. Stanley Williams has provided  20 further information which leads you to believe that  21 there may be a conflict between the territory between  22 Nishga and Kitwancool.  Isn't that the purport of your  23 evidence?  24 A   Stanley Williams has spoken to that and I would have  25 to leave it to them to work that out.  I can't speak  26 to that.  27 Q   Well, let me see that I understand you.  The answer  28 that you've given is recorded in the answers to  29 questions 1891 and 1892 was true according to your  30 understanding at the time.  You've confirmed that,  31 haven't you?  32 A   It was a belief that I had at the time.  33 Q   Yes.  All right.  Now, subsequently to that you've  34 come into the possession of information through Mr.  35 Stanley Williams which leads you to the conclusion  36 that your answer might be better modified by  37 withdrawing the opinion which you have expressed;  38 isn't that correct?  39 THE COURT:  The opinion you expressed about Nishga?  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  41 THE COURT:  Not that the territory should be removed from the  42 area?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  No.  It is the opinion stated, as I understand  44 it, that the area falls within Nishga Territory.  45 Q   That's the concern that you have, is it not, Mr.  46 Sterritt?  47 A   The concern at the time was whether or not it should 8213  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 be within the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en claim area, and  2 the information I had then was in relation to the  3 Nishga relatives.  It may be more complicated than  4 that.  And, yes, I've modified my opinion on that.  5 Q   Yes.  That's what we were trying to get at.  And today  6 you would say I rely upon what Mr. Stanley Williams  7 has said as to whether or not Yal's Territory is in  8 Nishga or Kitwancool?  9 A   No, I didn't say that.  It would have to be worked out  10 between the house members, and it's not for me to rely  11 on one or the other.  The fact of the matter is the  12 territory is not within the claim area.  13 Q   Well, that -- we're talking about an opinion which you  14 expressed in your examination for discovery.  That's  15 what we are now talking about.  Do you understand  16 that?  17 A  At a certain point in time, yes.  18 Q   And I suggest to you that your modification today is  19 that whether you rely upon Mr. Williams or not you do  20 not wish to express an opinion as to whether Yal's  21 Territory is within Nishga -- the Nishga claim?  22 A  Well, I'm just pointing out that Stanley Williams  23 spoke to that area in his evidence.  24 Q   But, Mr. Sterritt, you removed that territory because  25 your belief at the time was that it fell within the  26 Nishga Territory; isn't that right?  27 A   I removed it at the time, because the members of the  28 House of Yal suggested that I do that.  29 Q   Well, that's maybe what they suggested, but it was  30 your opinion at the time that the area fell within  31 Nishga Territory and that Yal, if there is a claim by  32 Yal to that territory it is within Nishga Territory.  33 That was your opinion at the time?  34 A   That was my -- that was an understanding I had at the  35 time.  36 Q   And that's why you took that territory out of the  37 Gitksan Wet'suwet'en claim?  38 A   I took it out because the members of the House of Yal  39 asked me to.  40 Q   Well, I'll -- I will rely upon the answer that you  41 have given to me that the opinion you have stated on  42 March the 26th was -- March the 25th was truthful  43 according to your belief at that time.  44 A   I pointed out that the members of the House of Yal  45 asked me to remove that territory.  46 Q   Question 1893.  47 8214  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 "Q   Well, my question was, did Mr. Turner  2 give you instructions to adjust the  3 boundary line" --  4  5 If you're going to follow me, Mr. Sterritt, I  6 haven't turned the page yet.  7  8 "Q   Well, my question was did Mr. Turner  9 give you instructions to adjust the  10 boundary line in the manner that you  11 described, and I take it from your  12 evidence that he did not; that you made  13 the research and arrived at the  14 conclusion that you have, or have I  15 misunderstood your evidence?  16 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  Mr. Sterritt has  17 not given evidence that he has adjusted  18 the boundary line, and you are putting  19 words into his mouth by saying that he  20 has adjusted the boundary line.  I think  21 he has explained in detail that he has  22 been trying to more accurately depict  23 the boundary line.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, maybe I have  25 misunderstood him, but Mr. Sterritt told  26 us yesterday and today of instructions  27 that he received from Arthur Matthews  28 which led to the adjustment in the  29 boundary line close to here, just about  30 the numeral 4 on Exhibit 10."  31  32 My lord Exhibit 10 was the map attached to the  33 statement of claim as of that time.  34  35 "MR. GRANT:  Yes.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  And I am now asking him how it  37 came about or did he receive  38 instructions from anybody with respect  39 to the adjustment in the boundary line  40 now depicted on Exhibit 5 in orange  41 letters, and in part, bounded by the  42 numeral 6.  43 MR GRANT:  Well, he has just explained to  44 you how he came to that conclusion.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, if that was his own, then  46 my question is did he receive any  47 instructions from anybody, or was a 8215  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 change made on the basis of his own  2 research and understanding?  3 A   It's, it's, based on my own research and  4 understanding."  5  6 Now, that last answer was yours, Mr. Sterritt?  7 A   Yes, it was.  8 Q   And was it true?  9 A   No.  It's -- in terms of the family, they had advised  10 me that they wanted to talk to their Nishga relatives  11 at the time, and they indicated that it should be  12 removed at that time.  And I also had done some  13 research, so it's only partly true.  14 Q   Partly true?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Because after the consultations that you had you  17 arrived at your own conclusion?  18 A   No.  The family had also instructed me as well.  19 Q   I see.  Well, let's go on.  Question 1894.  20  21 "Q   Did you consult with George Turner about  22 the change?  23 A   I consulted with people who are very  24 knowledgeable in this area including  25 relatives of George Turner, but I myself  26 have not had the opportunity to sit down  27 with George Turner.  He has been  28 ill."  29  30 That should be ill, my lord not will.  31  32 "But I have consulted with members of  33 that family and a number of members of  34 that family, hereditary chiefs in that  35 family.  36 Q   Is there any territory now the subject  37 matter of this action?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Would you indicate to me, please, where  40 that is?  41 A   The line that I'm going to draw will be  42 approximate, and as I have said before  43 this was a draft map, preliminary map.  44 More detailed work had to be done."  45  46 And then followed the exchange between myself and  47 Mr. Grant about the nature of Exhibit 102.  Now, 8216  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 before I go on to question 1898 --  2 MR. RUSH:  Is it agreed that 102 was before the witness at the  3 time?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  I have no idea.  It is agreed that 102 was before  5 the witness.  I agree with that.  As well as Exhibit  6 10, which was the map attached to the amended  7 statement of claim.  8 Q   And then, Mr. Sterritt, did you give the answers that  9 I have read to you to questions 1894 to 1897?  I  10 didn't read you 1897.  11 THE COURT:  You did yesterday.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I did.  13 Q   1894 and 1895, did you give answers to those  14 questions?  15 A   Questions 1894 and 1895?  Yes, I did.  16 Q   And are those questions true?  17 A   Yes.  That's what I mentioned, I consulted with the  18 relatives of George Turner.  19 Q   Yes, but your answer to question 1893, or as reframed  20 on page 426, whether the change was made on the basis  21 of his own research and understanding you now modify;  22 is that correct?  23 A  Well, the change could be made to the map based on my  24 research and my understanding from the House of Yal.  25 Q   Yes.  26 A  Which is what followed on the next page.  27 Q   Yes.  Mr. Sterritt, you didn't know what the next  28 question was going to be, did you?  2 9 A   No, I didn't.  30 Q   No.  And when you gave me an answer "it's based on my  31 own research and understanding", that was in your own  32 language at the time, and it was in response to that  33 question, wasn't it?  34 A   Yes.  But I was trying to recall what the nature of  35 the discussion was at the time.  36 Q   You had all the time you wanted to answer the  37 questions on your examination for discovery, didn't  38 you?  39 A   I'm not sure what that's got to do with it.  40 Q   That was a considered answer, wasn't it?  41 A   I don't recall.  42 Q   All right.  Question 1898.  43  44 "Q   I think the last question, Mr.  45 Sterritt, you were going to indicate to  46 me what other traditional territory is  47 claimed on behalf of the House of Yal? 8217  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 (EXHIBIT SHOWN TO WITNESS)"  2  3 That would be Exhibit 5, my lord.  4  5 "Okay.  I also want to tell you the  6 basis for that change.  I have sat down  7 with knowledgable elders in the House of  8 Hax Bagwootxw and Yal."  9  10 And then you go on to discuss that in some detail,  11 but I want to confine myself now to the territory that  12 was excluded.  And the exclusion was based upon your  13 own research and understanding at the time as a result  14 of consultation with house members other than George  15 Turner.  Is that a fair way of putting it?  16 A  Would you repeat that question again, please.  17 Q   I say I want to confine myself to the Territory of Yal  18 which was excluded from this claim, and it was  19 excluded by you as a result of your own research and  20 understanding based upon consultations with members of  21 the House of Yal, but excluding George Turner, the  22 holder of that name.  Is that a fair way of putting  23 it?  24 A  Well, we have just gone through that discussion.  25 Q   But is that a fair way of summarizing it?  26 A   I don't want to summarize it like that.  We have just  27 gone through that discussion.  28 Q   All right.  Now, I want to turn to exclusions of  29 plaintiffs, at least in part at this time, or apparent  30 exclusions of plaintiffs.  Am I right in my  31 understanding that there was at least one head chief  32 who appeared as a claimant in 1984 in the original  33 statement of claim who's no longer present?  And I'm  34 referring you to paragraph 31 of the original  35 statement of claim which is attached to Mr. Sterritt's  36 affidavit under tab 1 of the document book.  37 A   Tab which?  38 Q   Under tab 1.  39 A  M'hm.  40 THE COURT:  Page 31.  I'm sorry.  Page four.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Page four, paragraph 31.  42 Q   The plaintiff there referred to is Dawamuxw as the  43 hereditary chief of that house, and bringing the  44 action on behalf of himself and the members of that  45 house.  What was the English name of the holder of  4 6 that name?  47 A   Charlie Clifford. 321?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  Charlie Clifford?  2 A   Yes.  3 MR. RUSH:  It's number three on the plaintiff's list.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  5 Q   If I understand it correctly, by the amended statement  6 of claim filed in May of 1987 no claim appears to be  7 made by Mr. Clifford.  Am I right in that?  8 A   I don't know.  I would like to look at that.  9 Q   All right.  10 THE COURT:  That will be tab 5, won't it?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  That — I'm going to refer him to the trial  12 record.  Tab 5 is the --  13 THE COURT:  Is the later one.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  A later one, but not the latest.  15 A   I'm looking at the further amended statement of claim,  16 page five; is that right?  17 Q   Well, any page you wish to.  18 A   Tab 4 in here?  19 Q   Well, the date is the date of May the 11th.  Perhaps I  20 can assist you.  21 A   Filed May the 11th, 1987.  22 Q   Yes.  Yes.  23 A  And this is what you're referring to?  24 Q   Well, it's the recitation of the plaintiffs, and if my  25 note is correct I could not find a claim on behalf of  26 Mr. Clifford, or by Mr. Clifford.  27 A   On page eight --  28 Q   Yes.  29 A   -- The name Dawamuxw appears, paragraph 31.  30 MR. RUSH:  In the trial record, my lord, that the witness has  31 been referred to the eight is the handwritten eight in  32 the upper right-hand corner, but the typewritten page  33 is at the bottom, it's number five, and the witness  34 has referred to paragraph 31.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  You cleared up one minor mystery for us.  Thank  3 6 you.  37 THE COURT:  And who is it?  38 MR. GOLDIE:  It's — Mr. Sterritt has pointed out that paragraph  39 31 in the further amended statement of claim does  40 contain the claim by Mr. Clifford.  41 THE COURT:  Oh.  All right.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  I think — well, I'll leave that.  I think that I  43 have confused one name with the other, which is not  44 unusual.  45 Q   I want to ask you about the claim of Mr. Ken Harris.  46 He's -- what is his -- his Gitksan name?  47 A   Hax Bagwootxw.  That's H-A-X space B-A-G-W-O-O-T-X-W. 8219  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. RUSH:  That's 43, my lord.  2 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  4 Q   In paragraph 9 of the original statement of claim, and  5 we've discussed this briefly before, Mr. Stanley  6 Williams as Gwis Gyen speaks on behalf of himself and  7 the members of that house; is that correct?  8 A   Paragraph?  9 Q   Nine.  10 A   Nine.  11 THE COURT:  Himself and the members of what house?  12 MR. GOLDIE:  The House of Hax Bagwootxw, as I put it.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  14 A   That's how paragraph nine reads, yes.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  16 Q   Yes.  And so Mr. Stanley Williams is bringing the  17 action on behalf of himself and the members of that  18 house; is that right?  19 A   Yes.  In that -- in that paragraph.  20 Q   Right.  And subsequently is that the same arrangement,  21 or -- and I'm referring now to paragraph nine in the  22 further amended statement of claim.  23 A   Do you have a copy of that?  24 Q   Yes.  25 A   On page three, paragraph 9, yes.  26 Q   And are there not separate territories for -- claimed  27 on behalf of Mr. Williams and on behalf of Mr.  28 Russell?  29 THE COURT:  Russell?  30 MR. GOLDIE:  Or Harris.  I beg your pardon, my lord.  31 A   Stanley Williams spoke to that in the -- in his  32 commission evidence, and he pointed out that there is  33 a territory that Hax Bagwootxw, H-A-X space  34 B-A-G-W-O-O-T-X-W, is responsible for, and another  35 territory that Gwis Gyen, G-W-I-S space G-Y-E-N, is  36 responsible for.  37 Q   Well, you've also spoken to this territory yourself,  38 have you not, or to that matter yourself?  39 A   Yes, but Stanley Williams is much clearer on that  40 issue, and he spoke to it in commission.  41 Q   All right.  Well, I'll come back to that then.  I want  42 to ask you whether the president of the tribal council  43 when you were instructed in this matter, I think you  44 said the summer of 1984, was that Mr. Raymond Jones?  45 A   In the summer of 1984?  46 Q   Yes.  47 A   I was the president in the summer of 1984. 8220  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Right.  And then when the tribal council was  2 instructed to undertake the research which led up to  3 the lawsuit was Mr. Jones the president of the tribal  4 council at that time?  5 A  When are you talking about?  6 Q   Well —  7 A   You just mentioned 1984.  8 Q   Yes, I know.  You've given evidence of instructions  9 given to the tribal council in 1984, and you confirmed  10 that you were the president of the tribal council at  11 that time.  Now, I'm talking about other instructions  12 much earlier in time when you were not the president  13 of the tribal council, when the tribal council has  14 given instructions to pursue land claims.  Now, we've  15 had evidence of 1975 and evidence of 1978 or '79.  Let  16 me put the first date to you.  Who was the president  17 of the tribal council in 1975?  18 A   I believe Ray Jones was the president at that time.  19 Q   Is he the Raymond Jones who lives on the territory  2 0 claimed by Joan Ryan?  21 A   Raymond Jones, I believe he lives in either  22 Kitseguecla or Terrace.  I'm not sure.  I think he  23 lives in the Village of Kitseguecla.  That's  24 K-I-T-S-E-G-U-E-C-L-A.  25 Q   Well, I'm going to refer to the evidence given by  26 Olive Ryan.  Volume 21, my lord, June the 17th, page  27 1407.  And Mrs. Ryan was asked at line 27.  28  2 9 "Q   Do you know Raymond Jones?  30 A   Yes.  That's Moses Jones, the land  31 there.  32 Q   Who's Moses Jones?  33 A   That's Ray Jones' dad.  34 Q   And is Moses Jones a Gitksan person?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And Raymond is his son?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And Raymond lives on Moses' land?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And that land is on Gwaans' territory?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   What clan is Raymond?  4 3 A   Raymond?  44 Q   Yes, he is a Giskaast or frog?  45 A   He is from the Xsgogim Laxha House.  46 Q   And what clan was his father Moses?  47 A   He is a frog. 3221  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  1  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  i  37  38  i  39  40  A   '  41  Q  42  i  43  THE  COURT:  44  MR.  GOLDIE  45  THE  COURT:  46  MR.  GOLDIE  47  THE  COURT:  Q   And I think you told me yesterday that  Raymond Jones was on the Kitseguecla  Band Council at one time?  A   Yes, yes."  Was Raymond Jones once on the Kitseguecla Band  Council, to your knowledge?  Yes.  "Q   Does he live on that land with your  permission?  A   No.  Q   So in Gitksan law, is he a trespasser?  A   Yes."  Is that the Raymond Jones who was the president of  the tribal council in 1975?  Could you read that question again, please?  Does.  Well --  "Q   Does he live on that land with your  permission?  A   No.  Q   So in Gitksan law, is he a trespasser?  A   Yes."  And I just wanted to know if that is the Raymond  Jones who was president of the tribal council at the  time in 1975?  Yes.  We are talking about the same Raymond Jones.  All right.  Thank you.  Now, I believe that you have  told his lordship here that Raymond Jones was a  hereditary chief.  Is that your recollection?  I think he is a hereditary chief, yes.  But your recollection when you were examined for  discovery was that he had a name, but he was not a  chief.  Am I right in that?  I'll refer you to your  discovery if you don't have an independent  recollection.  Well, he's now Xsogogimlaxha.  I refer you to volume 1 of your examination for  discovery, question 144.  And this is referring to --  I don't seem to have volume -- oh, here it is.  :  Volume 1, my lord.  I think this is it.  :  Question 144.  Yes.  Question 144. 8222  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  And it follows 138 to 143 which talks about  2 the meeting in 1975 at which 50 to a hundred chiefs  3 attended that meeting.  4  5 "Q   You have become the chief spokesman  6 since then?  7 A   There was a president at that time.  8 Q   Who's the president of the tribal  9 council at that time?  10 A   I believe it was Ray Jones, but the  11 hereditary chiefs were the people who  12 spoke.  13 Q   Yes.  Was Mr. Jones a hereditary chief?  14 A   He is a Gitksan person with a Gitksan  15 name.  16 Q   My question was was he a hereditary  17 chief?  18 A   He has the same name today that he had  19 then.  I don't believe that it is a  20 hereditary chief's name."  21  22 Now, do you recall being asked those questions,  23 and did you give those answers?  24 A   Yes, I did.  25 Q   And were the answers true?  26 A  Well, I said -- well, read the last one again, the  27 last question, please.  28 Q  29 "Q   My question was was he a hereditary  30 chief?  31 A   He has the same name today that he had  32 then.  I don't believe that it is a  33 hereditary chief's name."  34  35 A   Yes, I had some doubt there.  I wasn't sure whether it  36 was a hereditary chief's name or not.  37 Q   So your belief at -- no.  Your belief at that time was  38 that it was not a hereditary chief's name?  39 A   That's not what I said there.  I implied some doubt.  40 Q   Mr. Sterritt, I want you to be quite clear.  I'm going  41 to read it to you again.  "He has the same name today  42 that he had then.  I don't believe that it is a  43 hereditary chief's name."  44 Now, did you give that answer?  45 A   I didn't -- I gave that answer, but I didn't --  46 Q   And was the answer true?  47 A   To the extent that I did not say that he was or wasn't 8223  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 a hereditary chief.  2 Q   I just asked you was the answer true.  3 A  With the comment I've just made about that sentence  4 there was some doubt in my mind.  I didn't know  5 whether he was a hereditary -- whether the name Wadii,  6 W-A-D-I-I, was a hereditary chief's name or not.  7 Q   Well, surely you're simply expressing your belief at  8 that time that it wasn't a hereditary chief's name.  9 That was your belief at the time, wasn't it?  10 A   If I had known that it wasn't I would have said it  11 isn't.  12 Q   Well, weren't you expressing a belief?  13 A  Well, that's semantics.  14 Q   Well, it may be semantics, but I'm asking you to agree  15 with me that you were expressing a belief.  16 THE COURT:  Well, there isn't any doubt you're expressing a  17 belief, is there?  18 A   I guess not.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Yeah.  20 Q   Now, did you leave the tribal council because of any  21 disagreement with Mr. Jones?  22 THE COURT:  I think, Mr. Goldie, if you're going to go on with  23 that new subject we'll take a short morning  2 4 adjournment.  25 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned for  26 a brief recess.  27  2 8 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  29  30 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  31 a true and accurate transcript of the  32 proceedings herein to the best of my  33 skill and ability.  34  35  36  37 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  38 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  4 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:40) 3224  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   My Lord, the question that I had left with Mr.  Sterritt was did he leave the tribal council because  of a disagreement with Mr. Jones?  Yes.  We had a misunderstanding.  And when you returned to the tribal council Mr. Jones  of course had ceased to be the president?  Yes.  My Lord, I've solved the problem of Dawamuxw, Mr.  Clifford, it wasn't a question of him disappearing, it  was a question of his territory disappearing.  I see.  And perhaps if I could put this to Mr. Sterritt he can  clarify it for me.  On Exhibit 102, the overlay map --  I'm sorry, not the overlay map, but the -- the overlay  map number 4 of October 17th, 1985, under the coding  Mr. Clifford's house is number 25, Dawamuxw; is that  correct, Mr. Sterritt?  Perhaps you can just quickly  confirm that from the coding?  Yes.  And at that time there appears to have been some  separate territories allotted to him.  If you can stay  with Exhibit 102 for a minute, in the north central  region under 3-F-25, is that the territory that was  thought at that time to be the territory of Dawamuxw?  A   Yes.  That's —  THE COURT:  What's the number again?  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   3-F-25, my lord.  It's just north of the Skeena River  where it makes a sharp -- well --  A   It's in the area that we made our second landing on  the overview.  COURT:  Show me where it is again, please.  A   It's right here.  We landed at Slamgeesh.  COURT:  Yes?  A   The second landing with David Blackwater, that's the  area that it's in.  Yes, all right.  A  Q  COURT:  GOLDIE:  Q   Yes  A   S-1-a-m-g-e-e-s-h.  Q   When I go to map 9-A the only reference I can find to  Dawamuxw is in association with the name of Geel on  the extreme west side of the Claims territory, is that 8225  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 correct?  2 A   Yes, it is.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  On what you're pointing to I don't believe  4 Dawamuxw's name appears at all.  5 THE COURT:  Where is it, please; on the west side?  Yes, thank  6 you.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  8 Q   It's one of the jaws of a small bay there.  The  9 Statement of Claim does not assert that Geel speaks  10 for anybody.  Can you tell his lordship how Dawamuxw's  11 territory is perceived to now be the territory of Geel  12 on -- apparently on the -- on behalf of Dawamuxw?  13 A   I believe the affidavit of Pete Muldoe it refers to it  14 there.  15 Q   But can you explain to his lordship how it happened?  16 A  Well, with respect to the first territory at 3-F-25,  17 Walter Blackwater spoke to that, and his grandfather,  18 who was Dawamuxw, and with respect to the area near  19 Swan Lake Dawamuxw and -- both Dawamuxw and Geel are  20 in that territory, and I believe that's referred to in  21 Pete Muldoe's affidavit.  22 Q   Yes.  I have no doubt it is, but it is not -- with  23 respect to Mr. Muldoe, it is not very well explained  24 how the House of Dawamuxw loses any right to territory  25 which in 1975 you and Mr. Williams apparently believed  26 they were entitled to?  27 A   Both Geel and Dawamuxw, they're very closely related  28 and are both in that area together.  29 Q   Well, I'm not talking about the Swan Lake area now,  30 I'm talking about the area in the north central  31 portion near Slamgeesh, and at the time you and Mr.  32 Williams gave instructions to Mr. Marvin George for  33 the preparation of Exhibit 102, which is dated October  34 17th, 1985, you allotted or believed that Mr.  35 Clifford's house had a territory in that north central  36 area just north of the Skeena River, and I'm asking  37 you to explain to his lordship how you came to the  38 conclusion that that house had no claim in that area;  39 that's the first question.  The second question would  40 be how it came about that it had a claim under Geel in  41 the Swan Lake area.  I go back to the first one.  How  42 did it come about that Dawamuxw lost any territory in  43 the north central area?  44 A  Well, as I recall, Moses Stevens, the grandfather of  45 Walter Blackwater, and Walter Blackwater explained  46 this in his cross-examination, was Dawamuxw, and he  47 was married to Asgii, A-s-g-i-i. 8226  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  2 A  A-s-g-i-i, who was the grandmother of Walter  3 Blackwater, and she was Wolf, and through that  4 relationship Dawamuxw, by Yugwilaat,  5 Y-u-g-w-i-1-a-a-t, which means the husband of a woman  6 can have certain rights to a territory, the --  7 another -- the husband of a family can have rights to  8 an area, and that was the basis for Moses Stevens  9 being in that area.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  11 Q   Yes?  12 A   Subsequently Walter Blackwater, David Blackwater and  13 Nancy Supernault explained to me Dawamuxw was not in  14 that area and identified who the correct chief was for  15 that area.  16 Q   Which was at one time Niist and then Gwinin Nitxw?  17 A   Yes.  Gwinin Nitxw, G-w-i-n-i-n space N-i-t-x-w, is  18 the hereditary chief of that territory and is closely  19 related to the House of Niist, and Gwinin Nitxw had  20 another territory on the south side of the Skeena,  21 south and east side of the Skeena, in that area, and  22 the family of Niist were on that territory on the west  23 and north side of the Skeena, in that area, with the  24 exception of one small area.  25 Q   Um-hum.  Well, the -- I take it that the fact of the  26 nature of the claim of Dawamuxw to the territory which  27 is shown marked 3-F-25 on Exhibit 102 was then only  28 partially known to you and Mr. Williams?  29 A   It was -- that was a draft map, as we've pointed out  30 to you many times.  31 Q   Mr. Sterritt, I'm not talking about the map being a  32 draft, I'm talking about the state of your knowledge,  33 and I put it to you that you were only partially  34 informed as to the nature of the claim of Dawamuxw to  35 the area that's marked 3-F-25 on the map?  36 A  At about that time Solomon Jack, who is the current  37 Gwinin Nitxw, and I believe Art Kusick, K-u-s-i-c-k,  38 who was the Gwinin Nitxw before Solomon Jack, had  39 identified for me that they had territory in that  40 area, but I did not have sufficient information at  41 that time to sort that out.  42 Q   Yes.  What information had led you to the belief at  43 that time that Dawamuxw had that territory?  44 A  Well, it was a draft.  I mean we were trying to put  45 that together, and it's the information that I had at  46 that time, yes.  47 Q   Yes.  Well, the information you had at that time led 8227  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 you to that conclusion, namely that it was Dawamuxw's  2 territory?  3 A   But it wasn't -- you know, it wasn't a firm conclusion  4 at that time, it was a draft, and drafted for the --  5 for the use of the lawyers and for review so that we  6 could sort that out.  7 Q   Yes.  Now, the territory on the west, which is now  8 marked as Geel, with a subscript of Dawamuxw, Geel  9 does not say that he speaks on behalf of anyone.  Do  10 they share that territory, or is Dawamuxw now regarded  11 as part of Geel's house?  12 A   I don't know the complete relationship there.  I am  13 aware that Dawamuxw and Geel are both in that area and  14 they are closely related, and that's about all I can  15 say about that.  16 Q   Well, whose evidence did you rely upon to prefer Geel  17 over Dawamuxw?  18 A  Well, I'm not saying that I prefer Geel over Dawamuxw,  19 I mean it's not for me to do that, but I don't think  20 that that's necessarily the case.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  It may not be necessarily the case, but did you not  22 give the instructions that resulted in that territory  23 being marked as Geel's?  24 MR. RUSH:  When are you talking about?  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   Well, I'm not sure.  Whatever time we're talking about  27 which gave rise to the map 9-A.  Did you not give the  28 instructions which resulted in the production of map  2 9 9-A?  30 A   I was -- I was the mapper, I did -- I did the research  31 on it, yes, but the affidavits of the hereditary  32 chiefs speak to the territories there.  33 Q   Yes?  34 A  And that's what's reflected on map 9-A.  35 Q   Can you tell me whose affidavit you relied upon to  36 allot that territory to Geel?  37 A   Pete Muldoe I believe did the affidavit in that area.  38 Q   And it was Pete Muldoe therefore that you relied upon  39 in coming to the conclusion that it was -- the  40 territory was primarily allotted to Geel?  41 A   Yes.  Pete -- the affidavit speaks to that area.  42 Q   Was Mr. Clifford the holder of the name of Dawamuxw  43 alive?  44 A   Yes, he is.  45 Q   Was he consulted about this, these changes at any  4 6 time?  47 A   Yes. 322?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  MR.  GOLDIE  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT:  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  THE  COURT:  25  26  1  27  28  29  30  MR.  RUSH:  31  32  33  34  THE  COURT:  35  MR.  GOLDIE  36  37  ]  38  39  THE  COURT:  40  41  42  43  MR.  GOLDIE  44  THE  COURT:  45  MR.  GOLDIE  46  Q   1  47  Was he consulted about the removal of his -- of the  allotment of the territory in the Skeena area?  Yes.  And other family members.  And he agreed to all of this?  Yes.  :  Thank you.  Now, my lord, I'm going onto another  point.  I wondered if I might resolve the question of  the extent of the exhibit of the transcript of Mr.  Sterritt's cross-examination in chambers under tab 3.  At the time I last spoke to it there had only been  very small reference to it, and now Mr. Sterritt has  been questioned rather extensively with respect to it.  I'm quite happy to tender that exhibit without --  tender that as an exhibit without reference to Mr.  Rush's re-examination, if that's my friend's wish,  otherwise I tender it as an exhibit.  I think my only point was that if my friend is  tendering it, it should be tendered in relation to  those items that he referred Mr. Sterritt to, any of  those passages that are contained in the transcript,  and --  Well —  It's hard -- well, that's my position.  Well, I would tend to accede to that, which is  consistent with my view that reference to part of the  document doesn't automatically Res extanti(?) make the  whole document in evidence.  Your friend can put the  whole document in if he wants to put it to the  witness.  I appreciate that.  He's chosen not to, and I don't  think that alters my position any.  I think the  correct way of proceeding is that certain passages  have been placed before the witness.  All right, Mr. Goldie.  :  I can deal with it.  I'll put the whole transcript  to him, and I just thought I would shorten things up.  My friend's going to have a look at it.  Just one  question before I go on.  I should add of course if you put the whole  transcript in Mr. Rush, in re-examination, in my view,  subject to argument, would be entitled to put  re-examination in.  :  I agree.  I have no objection.  Yes, all right.  Mr. Sterritt, you told his lordship that Mr. Clifford  had been consulted and had agreed to this.  Did you 8229  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 consult him or was it others?  2 A   The house appointed a spokesperson, and he was the one  3 who was delegated to come and discuss matters of the  4 house and to go back to family members, and there were  5 others who came, and from my understanding they were  6 consulting back and forth.  7 Q   But you had no personal communications with Mr.  8 Clifford?  9 A   Not after the spokesperson was appointed.  10 Q   And who was that?  11 A   His name was, I think it's Mel Patsey -- it's a  12 Patsey, one of the -- P-a-t-s-e-y.  One of the  13 Patseys, Gary Patsey, was appointed at one point, and  14 then later on, because he was away, one of his  15 brothers was the person to consult.  16 Q   I'm instructed that there doesn't appear to be any  17 notes of any conversations that you had with Mr. --  18 with a Mr. Patsey or Mr. Clifford.  Are there such  19 notes?  20 A   There was a house meeting with the family, I would  21 guess 1984 or '85, and I don't have any notes of that  22 meeting, but the discussions from there on were simply  23 verbal.  24 Q   Well, a lot of your discussions were simply verbal but  25 you made notes of them.  Are you telling his lordship  26 that you made no notes of a discussion with a member  27 of this house that resulted in the virtual  28 disappearance of any territorial claims by the house?  2 9 A   Yes.  That's what happened.  30 Q   Of course if you had discussions in 1984 that would  31 support -- or at that time that would support your  32 belief that they had territories --  33 A  As I recall, that meeting was, as I say, a house  34 meeting.  The family members brought -- a number of  35 family members wanted to get together to get more  36 detail about the, you know, the Statement of Claim and  37 what was going to be required of them from there on.  38 Q   Well, the question that I put to you was if you had  39 any discussions with family members in 1984 it could  40 only have confirmed you, in your belief, that Dawamuxw  41 had a territorial claim of its own?  42 A  Well, the subject of territory wasn't necessarily  43 discussed at that meeting.  44 Q   Were you at that meeting?  45 A   Yes, I was.  46 Q   And you made no notes of it?  4 7 A   No, I didn't. 3230  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  3  A  4  1  5  1  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  ]  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A   '  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  i  31  32  A  33  34  MR. GOLDIE  35  36  THE COURT:  37  MR. GOLDIE  38  THE COURT:  39  40  41  42  43  A   '  44  45  46  47  And you say it's not necessarily discussed.  Have you  any better recollection than that?  There were a lot of matters discussed.  I don't -- I  don't recall whether the issue of territory was  discussed at that meeting.  Where would you get information about the territory of  Dawamuxw other than at that meeting?  From the people who lived in that area.  And it was they who told you that Dawamuxw had that  territory?  That was -- I think even prior to that they had  mentioned that Moses Stevens, Dawamuxw, was in that  area, but on further examination and discussion it  was -- it became clear that he was there because of  Yugwilaat, Y-u-g-w-i-1-a-a-t.  You say you got information from the people who lived  there.  Who were the people who lived there?  Walter Blackwater, who was the grandson of Moses  Stevens, Nancy Supernault, S-u-p-e-r-n-a-u-1-t, who  was born and raised in that area, and I think she was  a granddaughter, but in any event, she was born and  raised in that area, and David Blackwater.  And it was their observations to you which led you to  the belief that Dawamuxw -- that was the territory of  Dawamuxw?  They identified territory there, and yes, that was the  information that I had at the time.  And there are notes of conversations with Walter  Blackwater and David Blackwater and Nancy Supernault.  Will we find to your present recollection any  reference there to the House of Dawamuxw?  You will find reference to the House of Dawamuxw and  to the House of Gwinin Nitxw.  :  Good, thank you.  Now, I'm going to refer volume 1  of your --  Have you finished with this subject, Mr. Goldie?  :  Yes.  What I would like to ask Mr. Sterritt, what am I to  take from the maps?  There seems to be a separate  house in Dawamuxw, therefore Mr. Clifford isn't a  sub-chief of the House of Geel.  How do the two chiefs  or two houses get assigned to the same territory?  Well, I think it would be similar to the relationship  between Djogaslee, D-j-o-g-a-s-l-e-e, and Axtii Djeek,  A-x-t-i-i space D-j-e-e-k, where they've had a very  close relationship.  They could be the members of the  same house and have split -- and could also be blood 3231  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  A  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  16  17  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  A  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  25  A  26  THE  COURT  27  28  A  29  30  THE  COURT  31  A  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  36  37  A  38  THE  COURT  39  A  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GOLDI  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  relatives as well, but there are two houses identified  and they're both in that same area.  :  But you have said the members of this house, some of  them, at least the leading ones, were born and raised  up in the Slamgeesh area?  No, that's not what I said.  What I said was the  grandchildren of -- who are on one side are Wolf and  on another side are Frog, were born and raised up at  well, Blackwater-Slamgeesh.  :  Yes?  And that they're the ones who were very knowledgeable  about the territories and are the ones who were  informing me about this relationship.  :  Did I not understand correctly that the -- that  people from the House of Dawamuxw were there because  of this right acquired through marriage and in the  Blackwater-Slamgeesh area?  Yes.  That was the husband.  :  The husband, yes.  He was married to the Wolf side, who were parents of  or grandparents of Walter Blackwater and David  Blackwater.  :  Well, was there only the one person that was in that  area by way of -- by rights acquired through marriage?  Moses Stevens.  :  Just Moses Stevens?  And his descendants, where did  they live?  Well, Moses Stevens' children would be in the House  of -- of Niist.  :  I see, all right.  His descendants -- well, his nephews and nieces or his  brothers and sisters would be in the House of  Dawamuxw.  :  Was this territory originally assigned to Dawamuxw  merely because of the presence on the land of Moses  Stevens?  Yes.  :  I see.  That was the reason.  :  Yes, all right.  Thank you.  r:  But perhaps I ought to ask you this:  You've explained  the change with respect to what we'll call the  Slamgeesh area, the Blackwater-Slamgeesh area, but the  only place where the House of Dawamuxw appears now to  have any claim is over on the west in the so-called  Swan Lake area, is that right? 8232  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Now, there is no relationship between the House of  3 Geel and the House of Dawamuxw of the kind that you  4 have described over in the Slamgeesh area of the kind  5 that existed in the Slamgeesh area between Niist and  6 Dawamuxw?  7 A   No.  Niist and Dawamuxw; Niist is Wolf, Dawamuxw is  8 Fireweed.  9 Q   I know, but you've explained to his lordship how it is  10 that there appeared to be a claim on behalf of the  11 House of Dawamuxw in the Slamgeesh area.  Now, I'm  12 asking you to put that to one side.  I now go over to  13 the Swan Lake area, and there I find the House of Geel  14 with some apparent claim on the part of Dawamuxw, is  15 that right?  16 A   The relationship -- the relationship that I described  17 for his lordship was between two Frog houses, as a  18 comparison.  19 Q   Yes?  2 0 A  And what -- and Dawamuxw is Fireweed and Geel a  21 Fireweed.  22 Q   Yes?  23 A  And that was the relationship, the parallel that I was  24 drawing for Dawamuxw and Geel in the Swan Lake area.  25 Q   But in the Swan Lake area there -- you have not  26 identified any basis upon which one clan member has a  27 claim to territory of another clan member, have you?  28 A  Well, they are very closely related.  There's not a  29 distant relationship.  30 Q   Well, in 1985 there does not appear to be any  31 suggestion that Dawamuxw is a sub-chief of Geel?  32 A   That's right.  33 Q   Yeah.  And in fact, the -- or that Geel is a sub-chief  34 of Dawamuxw?  35 A   That's right.  36 Q   So I still haven't got it what the relationship is  37 between the members of the House of Geel and the  38 members of the House of Dawamuxw that gives Dawamuxw a  39 claim on property that is identified as Geel's?  40 A   There is a territory defined there in the affidavit of  41 Pete Muldoe which is a territory within which Dawamuxw  42 and Geel both go.  43 Q   Yes.  But what is -- well, maybe that's the answer.  44 The people just go there and that's sufficient for  45 your purpose?  46 A   No, no.  They -- what relation -- what the connection  47 is between them I can't explain in detail.  What I'm 8233  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 telling you is that -- is that Geel has a number of  2 territories, and one of them is at the head of the  3 Skeena, he has another one south of that area, and he  4 is also in the area of, not Swan Lake, but just near  5 Swan Lake.  6 Q   Um-hum?  7 A  Along with Dawamuxw.  8 THE COURT:  Swan Lake is the one on the western boundary?  9 A   Yes.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  11 Q   Yes.  But -- well, I'll leave it on the basis that at  12 the present time you're unable to explain the  13 relationship between the members of the House of Geel  14 and the members of the House of Dawamuxw, which gives  15 rise to territory being attributed to Geel but with  16 some presence of Dawamuxw being recognized.  17 A  Well, I wouldn't want to characterize it -- I  18 believe -- no.  I'm not sure I can characterize it  19 like that, but what I've explained is what my  20 understanding of it is.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  22 THE COURT:  Well, from the point of view of the plaintiff's  23 theory of ownership and jurisdiction, would it be your  24 view that a declaration of titles should be made for  25 that Swan Lake territory in favour of Geel or in  2 6 favour of Dawamuxw or in favour of both of them?  27 A   In favour of both of them.  2 8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  30 Q   Well, just to the right of that Swan Lake territory  31 that we have been discussing is another territory of  32 Geel?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And the sub-claim appears to be A-1-u-u-x-w?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Who is the holder of that name?  37 A   Dickie Lattie.  38 Q   And that house -- or that is, the holder of that name  39 is a sub-chief in the House of Dawamuxw?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Is that another example of where the ownership of both  42 should be recognized as in the territory?  43 A   No.  That is a territory of Geel with Aluuxw delegated  44 there.  45 Q   Well, perhaps you can explain to his lordship what you  46 mean by delegated?  47 A  Well, Aluuxw is a sub-chief in the House of Geel. 8234  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  In the House of Geel?  2 A   Yes.  3 THE COURT:  Oh, sorry.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Would you look please at the map Exhibit 102, and  5 under the coding of "Chiefs" don't I find Dawamuxw as  6 number 25 with Aluuxw as sub-chief of that house?  7 MR. RUSH:  He hasn't said those chiefs are sub-chiefs, he said  8 they were associated with them.  I think that point  9 was gone over several times yesterday.  10 A  As I mentioned, this is a draft map, and we  11 subsequently learned that Dawamuxw was over on the  12 Swan Lake side of that break in the area there.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  14 Q   Yes, I know.  But I'm now addressing your attention to  15 the fact that Aluuxw, A-1-u-u-x-w, is either  16 associated with or a sub-chief of the House of  17 Dawamuxw on Exhibit 102.  Is that an incorrect  18 relationship?  19 A   The associated with, but not a sub-chief.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  21 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, associated with Geel or a sub-chief of  22 Dawamuxw?  23 A   Oh, no.  24 THE COURT:  Or associated with Dawamuxw?  25 A  Associated with Dawamuxw.  26 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, not a sub-chief in the House of Geel?  2 7 A   Dawamuxw or Aluuxw.  2 8 THE COURT:  Aluuxw?  29 A  Aluuxw is the -- is sub-chief in the House of Geel.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  And associated with Dawamuxw?  31 A   Yes.  There's a blood relationship here too.  Dickie  32 Lattie is Aluuxw, and his sister, Thelma Blackwater,  33 is in the House of Dawamuxw, so there's also a blood  34 relationship here.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  36 Q   Well, the coding on Exhibit 102 is, if I have followed  37 your evidence correctly, in error in suggesting that  38 Aluuxw, A-1-u-u-x-w, is associated with, related to or  39 a sub-chief in the House of Dawamuxw?  40 A   It's not an error to associate them in that Dickie  41 Lattie holds the name Aluuxw and his sister is in the  42 House of Dawamuxw.  43 Q   Yes.  But is the name Aluuxw in the House of Dawamuxw  44 or in the House of Geel?  4 5          A  Aluuxw —  46 Q   Yes?  47 A   Is in the House of Geel. 8235  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   So that at a feast of Geel, Aluuxw sits at the table?  2 A   Right close or just not far from Geel, yes.  3 Q   But he has no seat in the House of Dawamuxw, has he?  4 A   No.  5 Q   All right.  And I'm suggesting to you, therefore, that  6 number 25 on the coding, if you like to consult it,  7 which has Aluuxw as related to Dawamuxw, is in error  8 and it should be related to Geel, isn't that right?  9 A   It's not an error.  Aluuxw is in that area.  Geel's  10 name could have appeared there as well.  11 Q   Well, I'm not talking about the area, I'm talking  12 about the code, you understand me?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Would you look at number 25 of the code, please.  15 A   Yes.  I can see it.  16 Q   And the name Aluuxw should not be in that code, should  17 it, according to your evidence?  18 A  Well, as I mentioned, this is a draft map, and Aluuxw  19 is in that area within that territory.  20 Q   He may be in the area, but I'm talking about the  21 attribution of Aluuxw as related to or a sub-chief or  22 in the House of Dawamuxw, and he's not, is he?  23 A  Well, at the time we were working out those  24 relationships and it wasn't clear to us.  25 Q   Well, that's fine.  26 A  And with Dickie Lattie being Aluuxw and his sister  27 being and sitting at the table with Dawamuxw we  28 weren't clear on that relationship at that time.  29 Q   No.  And it wasn't until later that you satisfied  30 yourself that you understood it?  31 A   Yes.  We pursued that.  32 Q   Right.  So all I'm suggesting is that if this code is  33 to have present-day relevance at least that change  34 should be made?  35 A  Well, this code isn't to have present-day relevance.  36 Q   Well, you were the person who introduced the map, Mr.  37 Sterritt?  38 A  As I recall you did.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  40 MR. RUSH:  Exhibit 102 was introduced as a map of the  41 defendants.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  I agree, I stand corrected.  The -- the witness  43 testified to it, I'll put it that way.  Now, I want to  44 refer to volume 1 of the examination for discovery.  45 THE COURT:  Are you going to a new subject?  46 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I am.  47 THE COURT:  Okay.  Did Mr. Goldie make a forgiveable further 8236  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 mistake, Mr. Sterritt, when he said that at a feast of  2 Geel Aluuxw would have a seat, or did I not understand  3 that at a feast of Geel the members of the house  4 wouldn't be seated?  5 A   That's correct.  They wouldn't be seated.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  Yeah.  7 THE COURT:  They would not be seated?  8 A   They would not.  9 THE COURT:  So at a feast hosted by someone else for the House  10 of Geel —  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Where Geel was the guest, yes.  12 THE COURT:  Yes, yes, all right.  Thank you.  We'll forgive Mr.  13 Goldie for that one.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  15 Q   Yes, all right.  As long as I can be forgiven my major  16 errors.  Now, turning to volume 1 of your examination  17 for discovery, Mr. Sterritt, and the subject I want to  18 ask you about relates to your mining experience.  I  19 refer to questions 227 to 247:  20  21 "227   Q Now, with respect to the work that  22 you did north of Hazelton near  23 Tomlinson Mountain in whose  24 territory, if anybody's, was that  25 work done?  When I say whose  26 territory, I'm referring to the  27 plaintiffs in this case?  28 A That is Woos territory, Nii Gyap.  29 228   Q Did you know that at the time?  30 A Yes.  31 229   Q Who is Nii Kyap at the time?  32 A David Gunanoot.  33 230   Q Is he now one of the plaintiffs?  34 A Yes.  35 231   Q Did you seek his permission?  36 A Nii Kyap and Wii Gaak are closely  37 related.  I was working for the  38 company and I assumed they would have  39 made some sort of arrangement there.  40 232   Q You assumed that but you don't know?  41 A Yes, I do.  42 233   Q Did they?  43 A Wii Gaak was involved in that  44 property.  I don't know what Wii Gaak  45 and Nii Gyap discussed.  46 234   Q With your employer?  47 A With each other. 8237  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 235   Q      I'm asking you if you made any  2 arrangements to go in that territory  3 and your answer, if I understood it  4 correctly, was that that would be  5 something for your employer to do?  6 A      In an official capacity.  In an  7 unofficial capacity or as a Gitksan  8 person Wii Gaak is my father and I  9 can go on his territories.  10 236   Q      And what about the other members of  11 the crew, were they related to your  12 father?  13 A      No.  14 237   Q      Did you ask your father's permission  15 to take them on the territory?  16 A      I didn't take anyone on the  17 territory.  18 238   Q      Did the other members of the crew go  19 on the territory?  20 A      Yes, they did.  21 239   Q      Do you know if anybody asked  22 Your father's permission for those  23 people to go on his territory?  24 A      Company, I imagine.  25 240   Q      You are imagining that, but you don't  2 6 know?  27 A      Under the circumstances they were  28 there with his permission.  29 241   Q      Did you and your father ever discuss  30 permission?  31 A      No."  32  33 Just pausing there, 241.  Did you give those answers  34 to those questions and were the answers true?  35 A   I gave those answers, yes.  36 Q   Were the answers true?  37 A  As I recall.  38 Q   If you have any qualifications, please state them?  39 A  As I recall, yes.  40 Q   Yes.  41 Q   And your father was the holder of a recorded mineral  42 claim?  43 A   I don't know whether he was or not.  44 Q   Well, you, as an employee of a mining company together  45 with the other members of the crew, were there to  46 conduct work on a mineral claim, were you not?  47 A   Yes. 323?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   And when you say your father, under the circumstances  2 they were there with his permission, you were  3 referring to the fact that your father had an interest  4 in that claim, is that not the case?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Thank you.  7 A  Well, in that area.  8 Q   Yes.  And when I say "claim", I mean a mineral claim  9 recorded according to the laws of the Province of  10 British Columbia?  11 A   Yes.  But I don't know if the mineral claim was in my  12 father's name.  13 Q   Oh, I'm not suggesting that at this point, I'm not  14 suggesting that it was.  I said that he had an  15 interest in it?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Question 242:  18  19 "242   Q      Now with respect to the area around  20 Morice Lake whose territory is that?  21 A      Mathew Sam.  22 243   Q      Mathew Sam?  23 A      He is deceased.  24 244   Q      Pardon?  25 A      He is deceased.  26 245   Q      He was a hereditary chief of who  27 Gitksan or Carrier?  2 8                        A      Wet'suwet'en.  29 246   Q      Was he a hereditary chief of the  30 Wet'suwet'en?  31 A      Yes.  32 247   Q      What was the name that he carried?  33 A      I am not positive.  It may be Woos.  34 I am not positive."  35  36 Were you asked those questions and did you give those  37 answers and were the answers true?  38 A   I gave those answers, and I can't remember the second  39 part of what you were saying.  40 Q   Were the answers true?  41 A   To the best of my knowledge, yes.  42 Q   Do you have any qualifications that you wish to  43 express about the truthfulness of those answers?  44 A   No.  45 Q   And Mathew Sam was also either the holder of a  46 recorded mineral claim or had an interest in a mineral  47 claim, is that correct? 8239  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   That's my understanding.  2 Q   Yes.  Mr. Sterritt, you speak Gitksan poorly?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And understand it only a little better?  5 A   I understand -- I understand it better at this time  6 than I did at that time.  I can follow the language  7 much better.  8 Q   Yes.  In the period since February 25th, 1987 you have  9 continued your intensive study of Gitksan?  10 A   I wouldn't call it an intensive study.  The people  11 carry out their discussions and -- in front of me, and  12 I hear what's being said, they speak directly to me  13 and I'm confronted with it.  I also from time to time  14 sit down to try and develop a better grasp of the  15 language, and I do understand it better.  I can speak  16 it better than at that time as well, but I don't have  17 a real facility in the language in speaking it.  18 Q   You have studied and mastered Dr. Rigsby's method of  19 translating phonetically or translating spoken words  20 of Gitksan into written words?  21 A   I've certainly studied it to the extent that yes, I  22 can spell fairly well, most words.  23 Q   Well, all the spelling that you've done in giving your  24 evidence is based upon Dr. Rigsby's system, is it not?  25 A   Yes.  Also, Jay Powell, he's done some work as well,  26 and I've reviewed that, and it's a variation on or  27 slightly different than Dr. Rigsby's system.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  But it has now been standardized, at least for the  29 purposes of this case, the system that is used is Dr.  30 Rigsby's varied to the extent that it has been done by  31 the gentleman you last named?  32 MR. RUSH:  What's been standardized?  33 MR. GOLDIE:  The method of translating the spoken Gitksan  34 language into a written language.  35 MR. RUSH:  Mr. Sterritt's doing of that, because there have been  36 many others here who have done that, you're not  37 referring to all of them?  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I am referring to everybody who has given  39 evidence who has purported to either spell words --  40 well, who is purported to spell words in the Gitksan  41 language, they have been -- I'm suggesting to the  42 witness they have been using the same system he has  43 used.  44 MR. RUSH:  Then I object to that, but because Mr. Sterritt  45 hasn't been here throughout the testimony given by all  46 of the Gitksan witnesses and during the course of the  47 spelling of the words used by those witnesses. 3240  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  GOLDIE:  Well, very few of the witnesses who have spoken  Gitksan spelled the words.  RUSH: I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about  different people who assisted the court in the  spelling of words.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  RUSH:  And there have been several different people who have  done that.  COURT:  Mr. Goldie, to those who he has been here to observe  in that function.  GOLDIE:  Q   You've been in court when Miss Howard or Mrs. Samson  has assisted the court in giving the spelling of  spoken Gitksan words?  A   Yes, I have.  Q   And do they not use the same system that you use?  A  Well, I think we should break that down.  The -- I'm  not sure that either I or the persons who I've heard  spelling the words follow the Rigsby system precisely.  I think Dr. Rigsby himself is very precise and can do  that, but as for myself, I do my best to spell them  and I follow his system as closely as possible.  As  for the translators or these word spellers, I have --  I don't know to what extent they have studied the  Rigsby system, I couldn't say, and I don't know what  system they followed.  Q   I see.  When you hear, for instance, Miss Howard spell  a word, does she spell it the same way that you would?  A   It's fairly close.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  And the use of that system, I suggest to you,  has been standardized, at least to your knowledge, at  least since October of 1985?  RUSH:  Standardized by whom?  GOLDIE:  By Mr. Sterritt and the tribal council and the  people of whose knowledge he knows who use the -- who  have occasion to transpose written or spoken words to  a written language.  RUSH:  We have several entities and people there that I  think Mr. Sterritt should be separately asked about.  GOLDIE:  I will be glad to.  COURT:  Well, I think you should pursue that interesting  question at two o'clock, Mr. Goldie, please.  GOLDIE:  My lord.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30)  1  MR.  2  3  MR.  4  5  6  MR.  7  MR.  8  9  THE  10  11  MR.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  31  32  33  MR.  34  MR.  35  36  37  38  MR.  39  40  MR.  41  THE  42  43  MR.  44  THE  45  46  47 8241  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  3 a true and accurate transcript of the  4 proceedings herein transcribed to the  5 best of my skill and ability  6  7  8  9  10 Graham D. Parker  11 Official Reporter  12 United Reporting Service Ltd.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  4 6 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS)  47 8242  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia.  In  2 the matter of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen,  3 continuing, my lord.  4 Mr. Sterritt, may I remind you that you are still  5 under oath.  6 MS. RUSSELL:  My lord, before we commence this afternoon's  7 session I should perhaps raise a matter that is going  8 to cause some problems.  I should probably have  9 brought it up this morning, but Ms. Koenigsberg  10 thought the Pasco appeal would be completed and she  11 wanted to speak to it herself.  My lord, we spoke to  12 Mr. Rush earlier this week to ask him to make the  13 experts Gottesfeld and Matthews available next week  14 since we would not be prepared to go ahead with Mr.  15 Sterritt's cross-examination after such time as Mr.  16 Goldie stands it down.  Since that time we have  17 received a directive from Mr. Rush that he will expect  18 us to proceed to do Mr. Sterritt's cross-examination  19 at such time Mr. Goldie stands it down.  We are not  20 prepared to do that.  Subject to your lordship's  21 order, and I would point out as well that we had  22 suggested to Mr. Rush that we were prepared to go  23 ahead on short notice with the cross-examination of  24 Mr. Gottesfeld since we will be leading that, we are  25 at precisely the same disadvantage as Mr. Goldie is  26 with respect to the late delivery of Mr. Sterritt's  27 notes.  In addition, it would be very difficult for us  28 to go in in midstream of Mr. Goldie's  29 cross-examination and, as we usually do try, not to  30 trespass on areas he's touched and to know exactly how  31 to do that without causing complete confusion.  My  32 lord, I raise that with you now.  We can argue that  33 more fully at a later time, but I do wish to raise it  34 in a timely fashion.  35 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Do you want to respond to that, Mr.  36 Rush, or do you want to wait until another time?  You  37 seem to put each other on notice of your positions,  38 and sometime I suppose I'm going to have to  39 arbitrarily make a decision.  40 MR. RUSH:  It's just this is the first time I've heard they have  41 been disadvantaged by anything.  42 THE COURT:  Very well.  All right.  Well, I think the course of  43 wisdom might be to let Mr. Goldie continue as long as  44 he thinks he can, and deal with the situation that  45 arises at that time in the light of the circumstances  46 prevailing then.  If counsel tell me that they can't  47 proceed and there are -- there are reasonable grounds 8243  Proceedings  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie.  1 for such a statement I would have to pay a lot of  2 careful attention to what counsel say in that regard,  3 but I don't think that this is the time when I should  4 pronounce in the future things that happen between now  5 and whenever Mr. Goldie runs out of material.  I think  6 I'll take what you both said as notice, and it  7 certainly can be raised when the time comes.  8 MS. RUSSELL:  Thank you, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  10    MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  11  12 NEIL STERRITT, Resumed:  13  14 MR. GOLDIE:  15 Q   Just before the luncheon adjournment, Mr. Sterritt, we  16 were talking about the language which I suggested has  17 been adopted for the purpose of writing the oral  18 language of the Gitksan, and you had explained to me  19 that it was based upon, if I understood your evidence  20 correctly, based upon the work of Dr. Rigsby and  21 modified to some extent by another person whose name I  22 failed to make a note of.  Could you give me that  23 other person's name, please?  24 A   Jay Powell.  25 Q   Jay Powell.  26 A  What I was pointing out is that Jay Powell has also  27 done some work.  It's quite similar to Dr. Rigsby's,  28 but not necessarily exactly the same.  29 Q   My friend asks me, or said I used the word language  30 and did I mean spelling, and I guess more accurately I  31 probably mean spelling.  And is that the sense in  32 which you understood my question?  33 A   The -- there is an alphabet developed by Dr. Rigsby,  34 and there is another one that Jay Powell has developed  35 at a later date, and the Dr. Rigsby orthography or  36 alphabet isn't identical to the one that Jay Powell  37 also developed.  38 Q   Which do you use?  39 A   I rely primarily on Dr. Rigsby.  He is -- he is an  40 expert in the field, and I primarily use his  41 dictionary.  42 Q   And he was, in fact, retained by the tribal council to  43 do this -- to do one of these very -- to do this very  44 thing, and that is to develop an orthography which  45 would provide a spelling of Gitksan words that was the  46 same in Kispiox as it was in Gitanmaax as it was in  47 Kitseguecla; is that right?  Just to take those three 8244  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 villages as examples.  2 A  At what point in time are you referring to?  3 Q   I was going to ask you that, but perhaps you can  4 answer my question, was he not retained by the tribal  5 council to do that very thing, to develop what I'll  6 call a common orthography, a means of spelling Gitksan  7 words?  8 A  Well, that's why I'm asking at what point in time  9 you're talking about, because I'm not sure which --  10 well, if you can give me a precise time as to what  11 you're talking about I may be able to answer that  12 question.  13 Q   I'm putting it in very general terms just the nature  14 of what he did.  We can come to the question of time  15 in a minute.  16 A  Well, I would like to know at what point in time  17 you're talking about.  18 Q   What difference does that make to your --  19 THE COURT:  I don't understand the difficulty.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  No, either do I.  21 THE COURT:  Either he was retained or he wasn't.  If he wasn't  22 we don't even know when.  23 A  Well, if you're talking about the dictionary of Bruce  24 Rigsby there's one he developed in about 1969 or '70.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   Yes.  27 A  And he was also retained by the tribal council too in  28 terms of this court case.  2 9 Q   M'hm.  30 A   I don't recall a time when he was retained to  31 standardize the language in the three villages, nor  32 would it be possible, I don't think, to standardize  33 one for the three villages --  34 Q   Well, I used —  35 A   -- Because there is a western dialect and what we call  36 an eastern dialect.  37 Q   I use the three villages just as an example.  I meant  38 throughout the Gitksan Territory, but that -- you  39 don't think that was the case?  40 A  Well, I don't recall it.  41 Q   All right.  The work that he did in 1969, '70 was  42 independent research so far as you're aware?  43 A   I don't know on what basis he did that.  44 Q   And the work that he has done for the tribal council,  45 of which you are aware, relates to the evidence that  46 he is going to give in this case?  47 A   Yes. 8245  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   But am I not correct, Mr. Sterritt, that the  2 orthography which you have adopted has been adopted by  3 others?  4 A   I'm not -- I'm not certain of that, that they have  5 adopted the orthography that I have adopted.  6 Q   Well, in this case there is a Gitksan word list which  7 has now reached something like 1,638 entries.  Are  8 they not all based upon the same system of recording a  9 spoken word -- of spelling a spoken word?  10 A  Well, to the extent that there are similarity between  11 Dr. Powell and Dr. Rigsby they may be, but there may  12 have been -- I don't know whether the translators, to  13 what extent they have used exclusively Dr. Rigsby or  14 to what extent they may have used Jay Powell.  15 Q   Well, whoever they use, has it not been standard in  16 this court case?  17 A   Yes.  There's been an effort to standardize it.  18 Q   Yes.  Exactly.  And you're attempting to conform to  19 that, are you not?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And when you spell a word that we find in this word  22 list you're endeavoring to spell it in exactly the  23 same way as we find it in this word list; is that  24 correct?  25 MR. RUSH:  Well, maybe you should put the words list to him and  26 he can look at the word list.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  It's before him now.  28 MR. RUSH:  Then he should be given an opportunity of looking at  29 it.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  I've asked the question.  If he wants to look at it  31 he's welcome to do so.  32 A   Yes.  When I spell a word I attempt to standardize it,  33 as do the other word persons.  34 Q   Right.  And whether it's an orthography developed by  35 Dr. Rigsby or developed by Dr. Powell is really not  36 material.  It is a standard orthography?  37 A   Yes.  But whether you could say that it is strictly --  38 that it is a strict standard orthography I'm not  39 certain about that, but, yes, it's an effort to  40 standardize it.  41 Q   And that standard orthography is one that has been  42 developed fairly recently.  And my question is --  43 well, first, would you agree that it has been  44 developed fairly recently?  45 A   You mean the standard orthography that --  46 Q   Is used in this court case.  47 A  Well, the -- there has been an attempt to standardize 8246  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 since the court case developed, yes.  2 Q   Yes.  And, indeed, the names of the -- Gitksan names  3 of the plaintiffs as shown in the statement of claim  4 of October 1984 is representative of that attempt to  5 standardize the orthography for the purposes of this  6 lawsuit?  7 A   The Gitksan names of the plaintiffs that have been  8 listed on a piece -- well, within the statement of  9 claim and on the -- as a list, as a guide, is an  10 effort to maintain a standard spelling for the purpose  11 of the court reporter and other people involved in the  12 court case.  13 Q   Yes.  And it irons out the differences in the dialects  14 to which you referred a minute ago?  15 A   I don't know if I can say that.  From this perspective  16 if -- let me give you an example.  If a Gitksan person  17 in Kispiox gives the word for red, which is spelled  18 M-A-S-X-W, you say it Masxw.  And if a Gitksan person  19 from the Village of Kitseguecla or Kitwanga or  20 Kitwancool says the word for red then they say Mesxw.  21 That's M-E-S-X-W.  And so there would not necessarily  22 be an ironing out of the spelling across the - from  23 one side of the Gitksan language area to the other.  24 Q   But for the purposes of this lawsuit if a person from  25 Kispiox says Kliiyem Laxhaa it's spelled exactly in  26 the same way as a person from Kitseguecla, isn't it,  27 even if the person from Kitseguecla has a different  28 dialect or different intonation?  29 A  Well, yes.  The same -- the same word is used -- the  30 same spelling is used.  31 Q   Yes.  That's what I meant by ironed out.  And it  32 gives -- if I may put it this way, it gives the  33 impression that the language which is represented by  34 the words found in the guide to the court reporter,  35 which you have in front of you, gives the impression  36 that the language which is used is uniform throughout  37 the Gitksan peoples?  38 A  Well, I think that it would -- it would be like  39 spelling potato or potato.  I think that it's a  40 similar situation.  How are you going to spell it?  41 How are you going to spell potato?  42 Q   Precisely, but it might be different if you were  43 trying to render words -- render the spelling of words  44 based on a phoenetic -- phoenetic origin.  You would  45 spell them differently if somebody pronounced potato  46 and another person spelled it or pronounced it potato  47 if your object was to derive a spelling based on a 8247  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 phoenetic rendering; isn't that right?  2 A   If you were going to -- yeah, using the potato and  3 potato example --  4 Q   You'd spell it differently?  5 A   -- On a phoenetic basis, yes.  6 Q   Whether a Gitksan says potato or whether he says  7 potato the word is rendered the same in this court  8 case?  9 A   I don't know that.  I'm not familiar with all of the  10 work that the word persons have done.  I've attended  11 some, but what they end up writing I'm not sure.  12 Q   I see.  But in terms of the words that are in the  13 guide book, if I may so describe it, I think you've  14 agreed with me that so far as you've examined it it's  15 based on the same standardized approach as what you've  16 used?  17 A  Well, there may be words in there that follow the red  18 and red example.  And I haven't gone through it in  19 detail.  I don't know.  20 Q   Well, I can't call to mind hearing two different  21 spellings for a word -- the same word in this case so  22 far, but perhaps there are.  But you sought to avoid  23 that, did you not, by adopting a common orthography?  24 A  We wanted to assist the word -- or the court reporter  25 for the benefit of the court to the greatest degree  26 possible in being consistent.  I mean, and it hasn't  27 been easy, but because of the pronounciations and the  28 slight variation between the eastern dialect and the  29 western dialect.  30 Q   M'hm.  But to that extent it is somewhat artificial,  31 isn't it, because it doesn't seek to reproduce the  32 different phoenetic renderings of the same words  33 amongst the Gitksan?  34 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, if it requires Mr. Sterritt to review  35 the list in order to answer the questions about which  36 Mr. Goldie is now asking him then maybe he should do  37 it, because if there are different spellings, and if  38 this is a matter of moment then I think it's -- the  39 witness should look at the list and make the review  40 that's necessary to answer the question rather than on  41 some generalized view in this list as implied in the  42 question.  43 THE COURT:  Well, I'm not sure I agree, Mr. Rush, with respect.  44 Certainly if it comes to a very narrow question it's  45 already been made clear that he can review the word  46 list if he wants, but I -- I have the sense that with  47 the way we're going that probably the information that 324?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Mr. Goldie wants will either be shown not to be  2 available or it will be in evidence.  I don't think we  3 have to stop him at this point and read the book.  I'm  4 not sure the question calls for that.  I want Mr.  5 Sterritt to understand, I'm sure he does, he's  6 entitled to call a halt to this and read the book if  7 he wants, or read parts of it and examine it and look  8 for examples.  I think we're getting along all right.  9 It's cross-examination so I'm not going to make any  10 general ruling.  11 You may proceed, Mr. Goldie.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  13 Q   Perhaps I can reframe my question.  And in case you've  14 forgotten it, Mr. Sterritt, taking your example of red  15 pronounced two different ways and the spelling which  16 might result from that, for the purposes of this court  17 case you've endeavored to avoid that complication?  18 A   For the purposes of the court reporters and those who  19 will be reading we -- we have attempted to avoid that.  20 I'm not sure we have been totally successful in doing  21 that.  22 Q   To the extent that you have, I suggest to you that it  23 has somewhat an artificial affect of suggesting there  24 is a common method, common way or common dialect  25 throughout the Gitksan people?  26 MR. RUSH:  Isn't that asking for an opinion from Mr. Sterritt,  27 my lord?  28 MR. GOLDIE:  I thought he had already told us that, my lord.  2 9    THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  That was my impression, and I was just asking him  31 if he would agree with me that adopting the common  32 orthography has an affect which -- which is not in  33 accordance with reality to that affect.  34 THE COURT:  I think it might be a tenable objection, Mr. Rush,  35 if the witness wasn't a member of the community who's  36 been working in the language, but I don't think he's  37 being asked for a scientific or learned opinion.  He's  38 being asked about his own experience, and I think to  39 the extent that his answers may not be opinions, and I  40 think they can be permissible.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  42 Q   Can you answer my question, Mr. Sterritt?  43 A  Well, the -- there is a common language, and Dr.  44 Powell has a set of books in which it's demonstrated  45 that the pronounciation is slightly different in the  46 eastern dialect than in the western dialect, but the  47 language is common.  The people from the eastern 8249  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 villages can readily understand the people from the  2 western villages.  3 Q   I haven't suggested to the contrary.  I suggested to  4 you that there was a slightly artificial result from  5 your attempt to avoid the complications of two  6 different dialects in the sense that the common  7 orthography suggests there is but one dialect?  8 A  Well, I think that you're also making an emphasis on  9 orthography that is not really there to this extent;  10 my understanding is that, and this may bear out with  11 time, but that because of the different spellings  12 there will be an attempt to produce a word book that  13 has those different spellings for the benefit of the  14 court in relation to a common word, so that if you see  15 the word red you know that it can be spelled M-A-S-X-W  16 and also spelled M-E-X-S-W.  17 Q   You may see that, Mr. Sterritt.  I don't.  I see one  18 word and I see one Gitksan meaning for it, but that's  19 beside the point.  I don't want you to become confused  20 by my word orthography or anything else.  The simple  21 question I put to you is one that I thought would be  22 self-evident, that if you adopt one spelling for one  23 word for the purposes of this lawsuit those who are  24 not versed in Gitksan ways might reasonably conclude  25 that one word represented the phoenetic rendering of  26 that word throughout the Gitksan territories, wouldn't  27 they?  28 A  Well, that's a possibility, yes.  29 Q   Is the -- there's been a considerable interest in the  30 revival of traditional ways since you returned to the  31 territory in 1974, has there not?  32 A   The -- one of the reasons that I returned was because  33 there was a culmination of an effort by a number of  34 hereditary chiefs to -- and other people, to teach  35 the -- reteach the Indian art, carving of totem poles  36 and other items, and that -- all that was before my  37 time.  38 Q   But there has been -- the question I put to you is  39 since your return, and I don't mean to suggest, and  40 perhaps this is where you misunderstood me, I don't  41 mean to suggest that your return coincided with a  42 revival of interest.  I'll simply put it this way; can  43 you confirm for me from your own observation since  44 1974 that there has been a revival of interest in the  45 traditional ways?  Whether it originated before your  46 return or otherwise is not the point of my question.  47 A   No, I can't confirm that. 8250  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   I see.  But from your previous answer I take it that  2 upon your return you found under way a revival of  3 interest in the traditional Indian art?  4 A   Yes.  And I'm referring to Ksan in that regard.  5 Q   And you yourself participated in, shall I put it,  6 artistic endeavors at Ksan?  7 A   Yes.  I eventually did.  8 Q   Yes.  And Ksan itself is a symbol of a revival of the  9 Gitksan interest in traditional art, ceremonies and  10 customs; is that a reasonable summary?  11 A  Well, I think where that -- where that would be not  12 quite accurate would be in the area of customs, but in  13 some of the areas Ksan would -- was important in terms  14 of Indian art and the crafts that go along with that.  15 Q   And now quite independently of Ksan, of course, there  16 have been attempts to, and successful attempts as I  17 understand it, to introduce the use of Gitksan in the  18 schools in the reserves?  19 A   There has been language instruction in several of the  20 schools, yes.  21 Q   And part of that instruction has been the creation of  22 books of instruction using a Gitksan language, if I  23 may put it that way, in which Gitksan words are  24 written?  25 A   Yes.  And with Gitksan persons who are assisting in  26 the teaching.  27 Q   Yes.  Now, has the tribal council been a supporter of  28 that?  29 A   I think that it's been a combination of activities in  30 the villages as well as with the tribal council and  31 with the hereditary chiefs.  32 Q   Yes.  My question was has it been a supporter.  I  33 didn't suggest it was the sole supporter.  I said a  34 supporter.  35 A   Yes.  There has been support for that.  36 Q   And there have been other activities which were  37 designed to stimulate the interest of the Gitksan  38 people in their traditions.  Is that a fair statement?  39 A   Could you be more specific about -- about that?  40 Q   Well, I'm asking you have there been other activities  41 which are designed to stimulate the interest of the  42 Gitksan people in their heritage and culture?  If you  43 don't know any please say so.  44 A  Well, I'm not -- if you could be more specific about  45 that.  46 Q   I'm asking a general question.  If you don't know of  47 any other activities besides supporting the use of 8251  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 books of instruction in the Gitksan language in the  2 primary schools in the villages that are designed to  3 interest, or support an interest, or revive an  4 interest in culture of the Gitksan people please say  5 so.  6 A   I don't recall.  I don't recall.  7 Q   You can't remember any activities which would have --  8 that were for that purpose?  9 A   That in and of themselves stimulate?  The hereditary  10 chiefs themselves have -- have undertaken activities  11 to teach younger people.  12 Q   Yes.  And the tribal council has encouraged that?  13 A   Yes.  And the tribal council -- there are hereditary  14 chiefs who are members of the tribal council who feel  15 that that should be some of the activity of the -- or  16 something that the tribal council should support.  17 Q   Yes.  And it does or doesn't?  18 A   Yes.  It supports that kind of activity.  19 Q   And did while you were president?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   The -- and part of the revival of interest in Gitksan  22 traditions and customs has been the revival of  23 interest in land claims; isn't that correct?  24 A  Well, I can't say that land claims has ever been a  25 dead issue within our territory.  As far as I can tell  26 there have been hereditary chiefs who have been  27 concerned about that issue since the first Europeans  28 arrived in our territory, and have spoken out on the  29 issue in different forums.  30 Q   I didn't say that the issue was dead.  I said a  31 revival of the issue of land claims.  32 A   I guess revival might be a poor choice of words.  An  33 increase in the activity on land claims might be a  34 better term.  35 Q   Yes.  And you have supported that?  36 A  Well, I've been involved in that.  And as I've learned  37 about the issue, yes, I've -- and learned about the  38 reasons for the issue I've been active in that, yes.  39 Q   Yes.  And as you've explained to us, that activity  40 goes back to 1975?  41 A  Well, in terms of my participation, yes.  42 Q   Yes.  43 A   I came home in 1973.  44 Q   Now, the -- my understanding is that during your life  45 time with them your parents did not live in one of the  46 villages on the reserves?  47 A  My parents did not live on a reserve, although, when I 8252  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 was young I did live with my grandmother and  2 grandfather, and part of the year, for a short period  3 of the year, with my father on the reserve.  4 Q   Yes.  I think you've given evidence on that, but my  5 question is your parents did not live on the reserve?  6 A   Pardon?  7 Q   My question was your parents did not live on a  8 reserve?  9 A   No.  10 Q   And is my understanding correct that you were not born  11 a Gitksan?  12 A   Yes.  I was born a Gitksan.  13 Q   Well, I want to be clear about this.  Is it -- my  14 understanding is that to be a Gitksan citizen one must  15 be a member of a Gitksan house.  Do you agree with  16 that?  17 A   To be -- well, to be a -- to be a Gitksan you can be  18 adopted.  And in my case my father was Gitksan, my  19 mother was not, and I was always viewed as I grew up  20 as an Indian, as Gitksan.  I was not adopted into a  21 house until 1974, I think it was, but I was always  22 considered Indian.  23 Q   My question to you was do you agree or disagree with  24 the statement, and I quote, "to be a Gitksan citizen  25 one must be a member of a Gitksan house"?  26 A   I guess I think there are different degrees.  I think  27 when you receive a name and are fully taken into a  28 Gitksan house because of the name it's part of the --  29 part of your identity in the community, but I think it  30 would be correct to say that you are Gitksan by birth.  31 And there are levels at which you -- which you go  32 through to become part of the community within the  33 house system.  34 Q   Well, I take it though, Mr. Sterritt, that you  35 disagree with the proposition that I just put to you,  36 and that is to be a Gitksan citizen one must be a  37 member of a Gitksan house.  No matter how you become a  38 member you must be a member of the house to be a  39 Gitksan citizen.  Do you disagree with that?  40 A   I think in that statement the emphasis is maybe a  41 little overstated, but I think you qualify as a  42 Gitksan by birth and build an identity within the  43 community depending on the house you are a member of,  44 or if -- you know, in my situation, become adopted  45 into a house.  46 Q   Put it the other way, if you're not a member of the  47 house you're not a Gitksan? 8253  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   No.  That wouldn't be true.  2 Q   All right.  Would you agree with this, that most house  3 members are born into a house, the house of their  4 mother?  5 A  Well, that's true, yes.  6 Q   The only other way one can become a Gitksan is to be  7 adopted into a house.  Do you agree or disagree with  8 that?  9 A  Well, based on what I've just said before I -- you are  10 considered a Gitksan, but to become a member of a  11 house you would have to be adopted into a house.  12 Q   Well, I -- of course.  You then agree with me that  13 there are only two ways in which you can become a  14 member of a house; you're born into a house, the house  15 of your mother, or you are adopted into a house; isn't  16 that correct?  17 A   Yes.  But we are distinguishing that from in terms of  18 citizenship as being recognized as a Gitksan person,  19 but not necessarily with an identity in a Gitksan  20 house.  21 Q   Well, I'll put it another way.  Do you know of any  22 person who's recognized as Gitksan who's not a member  23 of a house?  24 A  Well —  25 Q   Besides yourself, apparently.  26 A  Well, for example, my children were considered Gitksan  27 but they -- their mother was adopted into a house and  28 then they were -- and they then had an identity in a  29 house.  30 Q   Well, of course, because they were born into the house  31 of their mother.  32 A   But they were considered Gitksan, but without a house  33 identity.  34 Q   But they were born into the house of their mother,  35 weren't they?  36 A   Their mother is not Indian.  37 Q   She was adopted into a house, wasn't she?  38 A   She was adopted later after the children were born.  39 Q   Well, is that the only example that you can bring to  40 mind of a person who's regarded by the community as  41 Gitksan who's not a member of a house?  42 A  Well, there are -- I think there are other similar  43 situations, yes.  There are situations where the  44 children are considered Gitksan by reason of the  45 father.  And their mother may not be Gitksan, but they  46 would be considered Gitksan, but they do not have a  47 house membership because of the mother. 3254  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  THE COURT  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  THE COURT  39  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  THE COURT  47  A  And do you tell me that such people, and we won't  restrict them to children, but we'll assume they are  grown people and they have not been adopted into a  house, do you tell me those people would be included  amongst the plaintiffs in this action?  What I'm saying is that they could be -- if they do  not have a house they could be adopted into a house.  By reason of their father they are considered Gitksan  and would be, I think, subject to what the lawyers,  you know, an analysis and sitting down doing that,  what they may come forward with, I would say that  those, and this is only my opinion, and it should only  be treated as such, but I would say that those  children are members of this action.  Well, I want to put to one side the question of  adoption.  Anybody can be adopted by a Gitksan house,  can't they?  Yes.  All right.  I'm taking the example that you gave me of  children of a Gitksan father and a non-Gitksan mother  who have not been adopted.  Now, you tell me they are  treated as Gitksan?  Yes.  They are viewed as Gitksan.  Even if they happen to be living in Montreal?  They could be living out of the territory, yes.  And they would be, according to your opinion, amongst  the plaintiffs in this action?  Yes, they could be.  All right.  Now, may I put it --  :  Represented by whom?  If not in a house where --  where do they stand in relation to the lawsuit?  The  claim is brought on behalf of -- by houses on behalf  of their members.  Well, I said that, yes, they could be -- they could be  adopted and come into the -- the action.  They are  also -- within the community those children are  considered Gitksan.  :  I don't have any difficulty at all with the adoption  part of it.  That seems to speak for itself.  The only  difficulty I have is when you say they're part of this  lawsuit, and I haven't heard counsel on this, but I  just wondered where you would slot them into the  lawsuit.  Okay.  I should go back.  With adoption they are  into --  :  After adoption, no doubt.  Before that within the community they are considered 3255  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  1  2  3  THE  COURT:  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  MR.  GOLDIE  11  ]  12  THE  COURT:  13  MR.  GOLDIE  14  Q  1  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  THE  COURT:  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  THE  COURT:  31  MR.  GOLDIE  32  THE  COURT:  33  MR.  GOLDIE  34  THE  COURT:  35  MR.  GOLDIE  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Gitksan.  They are known to be Indian persons.  And I  can see the point that you're making.  Yes.  Well, you don't have to -- you don't have to  answer.  It isn't something that needs to be discussed  now unless you want to.   I was hoping that you had a  simple answer to my question.  If you have trouble  with it the same as I do let's leave it.  No doubt if  it's important enough somebody will come back to it.  Go ahead, Mr. Goldie.  :  Well, I was coming to almost the same question, but  more in terms of the witness himself.  Yes.  Mr. Sterritt, you were not born into a house, were  you?  No.  And you were not adopted until 1974?  Yes, that's right.  And you were how old in 1974?  33.  Now, I put it to you that there was no representation  by any house, or you had no representation in any  house prior to 1974?  Yes, that's right.  And the -- let me put this question.  I want to read  to you from your examination for discovery of volume 1  question 325 to 329.  I'm sorry.  325 to 329.  Volume 1?  :  Yes.  Question 325.  :  325.  It starts on page 49, my lord.  Yes.  Thank you.  "Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  When did you become a member of the  House of Gitludahl?  1974.  Can you describe for me, please, how  that occurred?  A feast was held and messages were sent  to tell me to come to a feast to get a  name.  And you were given a name at that feast?  Yes.  That was the name which identified you 3256  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  MR.  GOLDIE  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  MR.  GOLDIE  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  MR.  GOLDIE  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  i  31  A  32  33  ]  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  as a member of the House of Gitludahl?  A   Yes.  Q   Prior to that you had not been a member  of any house?  A   No."  And then I'll add 330.  "Q   Was your mother a member of that house?  A   No."  And, of course, your father wasn't a member of  that house, was he?  No, he wasn't.  Were the questions that I asked you, and the answers  that you have given true?  Could I have those put in front of me, please.  Which questions?  :  325 to 330.  I added 330.  Oh.  :  Could you show that transcript, please, to Mr. --  I've got it marked.  :  That doesn't make any difference.  Question 325 to 330?  That's correct.  Yes.  Okay.  The question was were those --  Answers true.  Yes.  And I suggest to you that prior to 1974 you were not a  Gitksan?  The people of the community considered me Gitksan in  a -- in a strict sense.  Well, the people considered  me Gitksan.  My father -- I have certain rights,  privileges on his territory.  It's a very fine line  there.  No, I was Gitksan.  All right.  You told his lordship, I believe, that you  were a hereditary chief.  I'm referring to volume --  transcript volume 112 of June the 30th, page 6989,  line 38.  "Q Mr. Sterritt, do you hold a Gitksan  name?  A Yes, I do.  Q What is that?  A Mediig'm Gyamk.  Q Is that a chief's name?  A Yes, it is." 8257  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2 And then you were asked what house it was.  "It's  3 the House of Gitludahl."  Did you mean by that answer  4 that you were a hereditary chief in the sense that  5 that phrase has been used in this case?  6 A   The -- I have consulted with Gitludahl,  7 G-I-T-L-U-D-A-H-L, and Dinii, D-I-N-I-I, and asked  8 them the status of the name that had been given to me,  9 and they said that I am considered a hereditary chief.  10 Q   But in February -- yes, February of 1987 when you were  11 examined for discovery your belief was that you were  12 not a hereditary chief; is that right?  13 A   Yes.  That's what I said at that time, because that  14 was my belief.  15 Q   When did you make the inquiry?  16 A   Over the past year.  I can't recall.  Over the past  17 year though.  18 Q   Well, let's, just to be clear on this, I'm referring  19 now to volume 1 of his examination for discovery,  20 questions 334 to 336.  21  22 "Q   You would not be a chief, a hereditary  23 chief in the House of Gitludahl?  2 4 A   No."  25  26 Was that answer true?  27 MR. RUSH:  What's that again, please?  28 MR. GOLDIE:  334.  29 MR. RUSH:  Oh, yes.  30 A   That was my understanding at the time, and I was  31 referring then to the former name that I had as well.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  33 Q   Well, you were referring then to the name that you now  34 say is a chief's name, weren't you?  35 A   The former name that I had was not, and in the  36 statement there, "You would not then be a hereditary  37 chief in the House of Gitludahl.  No.  What is your  38 Gitksan name, please?  The name they gave me then is  39 not the one that I have now."  40 Q   I know, but I asked you you would not be a chief, a  41 hereditary chief in the House of Gitludahl.  No.  That  42 spoke in the present, didn't it?  43 A  With reference to my former name.  44 Q   Mr. Sterritt, please don't trifle with me.  You were  45 asked a question about your present and you didn't  46 know what answer or question would come after that  47 question I put to you, did you? 325?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   I don't recall.  Q   Well, how could you?  I asked you a question.  You  would not be a chief or a hereditary chief in the  House of Gitludahl and your answer was no.  That was  intended to be a comprehensive answer, wasn't it?  A   I don't think so, not based on the question I gave  afterwards.  Q   Yes.  But you didn't know the question afterwards when  you gave me the answer to question 334, did you?  A   But that clarifies it.  Q   I asked you what your Gitksan name was, and your  name -- your answer was the name they gave me then was  not the one I have now?  A   Right.  Q   But that has nothing to do with the answer to the  question are you a hereditary chief, does it?  A  At that time I wasn't sure about the status of the  name I had then or that I have now, and also the name  that I had before that was not a hereditary chief's  name, to my knowledge.  Q   Yes.  I'm not questioning that at all.  THE COURT:  But when did you get the second name?  A  When my Uncle Moses Morrison died in December of 1985.  THE COURT:  So you had that name at the time of this  examination?  A   Yes, I did.  I've had the name now for almost three  years.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   And I'll  A  A  go on with question 336.  Do you have any objection to giving me  the name you were given then and your  present name?  My name at that time was Gotskim  Gipaiyk.  My present name is Medeegemg  Gymak."  That's spelled G-O-T-S-K-I-M space G-I-P-A-I-Y-K, and  the second word is spelled M-E-D-E-E-G-E-M.  In this  case there's a G on the end and there shouldn't be,  G-Y-A-M-K.  And it's misspelled in here.  G-Y-A-M-K?  G-Y-A-M-K.  It's misspelled in here.  THE COURT:  A  MR. GOLDIE:  Q Mr. Sterritt, is it your evidence today that you were  ignorant of the attributes of the name you were given  in December of 1985? 8259  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   I wasn't certain when I was given that name as to what  2 status it held within the house.  3 Q   Well, when you identified a photograph of yourself in  4 regalia, did you not understand that regalia to be  5 that of a chief?  6 A   The regalia you have to develop -- it takes a long  7 time to build yourself in that direction, and also it  8 wasn't up to me to assume whether or not I was a  9 hereditary chief.  The -- and I wouldn't assume that.  10 It was something that I wasn't clear about, and I  11 wanted to check that with Pete Muldoe and Alvin  12 Wiigyet.  13 Q   Upon assuming that name at the feast in December of  14 1985 you took a seat at the feast where your house was  15 being honoured; is that correct?  16 A   In that feast I stood, and we all stood because we  17 were putting on the feast.  18 Q   Well, I'm sorry.  I'm talking about any feast other  19 than a feast put on by your house.  As soon as you  20 assumed that name thereafter you had a seat at such a  21 feast, didn't you?  22 A   Yes, I did.  23 Q   Yes.  24 A  And it was the same seat that I had been holding since  25 1974.  26 Q   And it is -- you're seated beside the person who's now  27 Gitludahl?  28 A   No.  I'm seated beside Waiget.  W-A-I-G-E-T.  29 Q   I took it from your earlier evidence that you were  30 seated beside Pete Muldoe?  31 A   No.  At the table that I was at from 1974 until  32 today -- but let me just go back.  At the table I sat  33 at from 1974 to 1985 Pete Muldoe sat opposite and one  34 seat up from me at the table.  I still continue to sit  35 in the same seat at the same table, and Pete Muldoe,  36 Gitludahl, has moved up to the seat of Gitludahl at  37 the feast hall at another table.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Let me go on to question 341.  39 THE COURT:  I think, if you don't mind, Mr. Goldie, we'll take  40 the afternoon break.  41 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  We'll take a brief recess.  42  43  44  45  4 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  47 8260  1  foregoing to be  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47    THE  REGISTRAR  I hereby certify the  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:20)  Order in court. 8261  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  3 Q   Mr. Sterritt, if I understand your evidence correctly,  4 you're telling me that you were ignorant of the fact  5 that the name given you in December 1985 was a chief's  6 name, that is to say in February of 1987?  7 A   I was wondering about the status of it.  It wasn't  8 clear to me, because of partly where I was sitting.  I  9 did have discussions earlier and discussions since  10 to -- I talked to Pete Muldoe to establish how he  11 viewed that name.  12 Q   Yes.  And your evidence is that you didn't hold those  13 discussions until after February 1987?  14 A   No.  I said I had had -- I had wondered about it and I  15 think I had inquired about it but I wasn't entirely  16 certain about the status, and talked to Pete Muldoe to  17 confirm how he viewed the status of that name.  18 Q   And when did the confirmation take place?  19 A   I don't recall.  I think -- when I say confirmation, I  20 think I chatted with him about it in April or May of  21 1988.  22 Q   Well, if I understand you correctly, Mr. Sterritt, you  23 were in such a state of concern or ignorance that when  24 you were asked the question in February of 1987 you  25 denied that you held a chief's name?  26 A   Yes.  I wasn't certain about the status of that name.  27 Q   You knew the name given you on adoption was not a  28 chief's name, didn't you?  29 A   Yes, because -- well, let me clarify it.  The name  30 Medeegam Gyamk is connected with a crest.  31 Q   Excuse me.  The name given you on adoption was what I  32 referred to?  33 A   Oh, in 1974?  34 Q   That is correct.  35 A   I didn't know the status of that name, that's right.  36 I didn't think it was a chief's name.  37 Q   Well, let me repeat my question.  In 1974, when you  38 were given a name on being adopted, you knew that you  39 were not a chief of the House of Gitludahl, didn't  40 you?  41 A   Yes.  I didn't consider myself a chief of the house.  42 Q   Nor did anybody else?  43 A   To the best of my knowledge.  44 Q   Now, you're telling us that when you got your new name  45 at a feast in December 1985 you didn't realize that  46 you had become a chief?  47 A   I didn't understand the status of the name.  When 8262  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 you -- there are different stages.  There are what you  2 call working names and -- because the name Madeegam  3 Gyamk was a name my uncle, Moses Morrison -- I'll  4 spell that for the reporter -- M-e-d-e-e-g-a-m, I  5 think it was, space, G-y-a-m-k.  My uncle, Moses  6 Morrison, gave that name to Alvin Weget in the very  7 early 70's.  Prior to that time the name had been a  8 crest name, as far as I know, on the totem pole of  9 Gitludahl, so when Alvin Weget decided to give me that  10 name at the feast of Moses Morrison, the funeral  11 feast, I was not certain of the status of it.  I knew  12 that Alvin Weget held two names and that that was one  13 of them.  I was not certain, and there is a lot of  14 work that has to be done to build a name, but also  15 it's partly how you were viewed in the eyes of the  16 community and whether you are considered based on the  17 work that you do and how you get to a certain status,  18 and I had to clarify that with both Pete Muldoe and  19 Alvin Weget, and it's not up to me to consider whether  20 or not I'm a hereditary chief.  As far as I'm  21 concerned it's up to the other members, and in  22 particular Pete Muldoe and Alvin Weget.  23 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt, a name that has been held by a  24 chief in a house, when it is assumed by another  25 person, the holder of that name assumes the power of  26 that name, doesn't he?  27 A   The -- the situation is that sometimes a name will  28 have a certain status by virtue of the person who's  29 holding it, and when -- a person could die and they  30 could decide that that name will go onto a much  31 younger person who has not built themselves up yet,  32 they're not that experienced, they could have that  33 name so the -- it will be recognized that that person  34 is going to have to develop the full power that went  35 with the name before, it doesn't necessarily carry  36 over onto the younger person.  There will be ways that  37 members of the house would assist in that, other  38 people at other levels, and it doesn't automatically  39 assume that the full power goes, but it might, yes.  4 0 Q   Um-hum.  And when you got your new name -- and it is a  41 chief's name, isn't it?  42 A  Well, that's what I've been told.  43 Q   In December 1985 -- well, that's what you assume now,  44 that's what you've told his lordship, isn't that  45 right?  4 6 A   That's what I've been told by Pete Muldoe and Alvin  47 Weget. 8263  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   And you accept that?  2 A   I respect what Pete Muldoe and Alvin Weget, I respect  3 their views and their opinions and I respect their  4 judgment, and if they feel that I -- that I warrant  5 being called a hereditary chief then I will respect  6 that.  7 Q   Just so I have it perfectly clear, in December 1985,  8 when you received the name of whatever it was,  9 Medeemgam Gyamk, you didn't realize you had become a  10 Simoighet?  11 A   I didn't know what status I was assuming at that  12 point.  13 Q   Yeah.  And you didn't learn what the status was from  14 Pete Muldoe between December 1985 and February 1987?  15 A   I don't recall that I -- that I had a -- that I was  16 satisfied in that in terms of if I had any  17 discussions, and I think I was discussing it, but I  18 wanted to sit down with Pete Muldoe, and I did in the  19 spring of 1988 and asked him.  2 0 Q   Um-hum.  But you were aware that during the feast in  21 which you received that name the reference was made to  22 it and an adaawk?  23 A   During that feast Alvin Weget spoke to the people in  24 Gitksan and I didn't catch everything he was saying.  25 He explained it because the name is connected with an  26 adaawk and with a crest on a totem pole.  He explained  27 it but I didn't know everything he was saying.  I  28 didn't know he was -- he was saying I would continue  29 to sit at the seat I had been sitting, I had picked  30 that up, but I didn't understand all that he was  31 saying in Gitksan.  32 Q   Um-hum.  So you were unaware that he made reference to  33 your new name in an adaawk?  34 A  Well, I was aware that the name was part of an adaawk.  35 Q   Yes.  And didn't that signify to you that it was a  36 chiefly name?  37 A   Not necessarily.  It was a crest -- Medeegam Gyamk is  38 a crest on the totem pole of Gitludahl, it's part of  39 an adaawk, and the fact that that would happen  40 wouldn't necessarily signify that to me.  41 Q   Yes.  Now, the -- I make reference to your examination  42 for discovery at question 341 -- or question 339 to  43 350, page 51:  44  45 "339   Q      What is the meaning of your present  4 6 name?  47 A      The grizzly of the sun. 3264  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  MR. GOLDIE:  Q  340 Q Pardon?  A The grizzly of the sun.  341 Q When did you receive that?  A December of 1985.  342 Q At a feast of the house of Gitludahl?  A Yes."  Were you asked those questions and did you give those  answers?  A   Going through to what number?  Q   339 to 341 — 342, I should say.  A   Yes.  I did give those answers.  Q   And they're true?  A   Yes.  Q   Question 343:  "Are you" -- the word there, my lord,  is "achieve", it should be "a chief"; do you agree  with that, Mr. Rush?  I have no reason to dispute it.  It seems  contextually right.  "343  344  345  346  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Are you a chief or a member of any  other Gitksan house?  I sit at another table.  At the feasts of what houses?  At a feast the table I sit at is with  the table of Wiigyet.  Is that the house that your father  was a member of?  No.  Would you spell that house?  W-i-i-g-y-e-t."  Were you asked those questions and did you give those  answers?  A   Yes, I did.  Q   And they're true?  A   Yes, they are.  Q   Question 347:  '347  Mr. Sterritt, I had asked you  whether you were a chief of or a  member of any other, and I will  confine it now to Gitksan house  and you said that you sat at another  table at the feast and you explained  to me that signified, if I understood 8265  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 you correctly, that you sat as a  2 member of the house of Wiigyet; am  3 I right so far?  4 A I sit at that table.  5 348   Q Are you a member of that house?  6 A I think I consider myself a member  7 of house of Gitludahl.  8 349   Q I am sorry.  Can you spell that?  9 A G-i-t-l-u-d-a-h-1.  10 350   Q By virtue of what right or action do  11 you sit at the table of Wiigyet at a  12 feast?  13 A When I received my name the seats at  14 the table of Gitludahl were occupied  15 and so they gave me a seat down at  16 Wiigyet's table.  I am still down  17 there.  18 351   Q That does not signify you are a  19 member of that house or that you are  20 a chief of that house; is that right?  21 A No."  22  23 Were you asked those questions, did you give those  24 answers, and are they true -- or were they true?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   In your evidence in chief here you enlarged upon that  27 by stating that you were sat at a table opposite Pete  2 8 Muldoe.  Do you remember that?  29 A   In which —  30 Q   I said in your evidence in chief here.  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   You stated that you were seated at the table opposite  33 Pete Muldoe?  34 A   Yes.  I said that.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  And that one of the reasons was that he -- he, that  36 is to say Moses Morrison, wanted you to learn from  37 Pete and to be close to him, is that correct?  I'm  38 referring to your evidence in chief here at volume  39 112, page 6998.  40 MR. RUSH:  It appears on my reading that the passage directed to  41 the witness here and the reference in the discovery  42 are talking about two different times, I think that  43 should be clarified with the witness.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'll start — I think they're talking about  4 5 the same time.  46 MR. RUSH:  Maybe just the question.  47 MR. GOLDIE: 8266  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   I'm -- in your evidence in chief did you not tell his  2 lordship that you sat at the table of Wiigyet?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And did you not explain why you sat at that table?  5 A   I believe that I did, yes.  6 Q   And I'm going to refer you to your answer at page 6998  7 at line 25.  Well, the question is:  8  9 "Q      And why is it that as a member of the  10 House of Gitludahl you sit at the  11 table of Wiigyet?  12 A      It's the way that the tables are set  13 up in Kispiox.  The leading Kisgagas  14 or Fireweed chief in Kispiox is Geel  15 and beside him sits, on his right,  16 sits Gitludahl and on his left  17 sits Gwiiyeehl, Gwiiyeehl being Chris  18 Skulch, and then there are other  19 leading chiefs from those houses that  20 sit there and the chair, the seat  21 that I would have occupied was  22 occupied by Wii yagaa deets, Eli  23 Turner, who had been in Kispiox for  24 a long time.  So Moses Morrison,  25 Gitludahl, asked me to sit with the  26 future Gitludahl, the prospective  27 Gitludahl, Pete Muldoe, and I sat at  28 the table opposite Pete Muldoe, who  29 at that time was Wii Seeks, and one  30 of the reasons was that he wanted me  31 to learn from Pete and to be close to  32 him."  33  34 Do you recall giving that evidence?  35 A   Yes, I do.  36 Q   And that was the reason why you sat opposite Pete  37 Muldoe?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Because tables at your own house were occupied, and  40 Moses Morrison, the then Gitludahl, wanted you to be  41 seated opposite his successor?  42 A   Yes.  I recall that.  43 Q   And to learn from him?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And you're telling me that -- you're telling his  46 lordship that from December 1985 until February 1987  47 you did not learn from Pete Muldoe that you held a 8267  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 chief's name?  2 A   From which dates?  3 Q   December 1985, when you received the second name?  4 A   That's right.  The -- well, let me just clarify that a  5 bit.  It was on -- I think on the day of the feast for  6 Moses Morrison that Alvin Weget decided to give me the  7 name Medeegam Gyamk, and I had never known at any time  8 prior to that that that name would be given to me.  As  9 a matter of fact, I think that it was at the feast or  10 just prior to the feast that he decided to give me  11 that name, and I was not aware that I would be  12 receiving it before then.  I was honoured, it was a  13 privilege, but I did not -- I did not learn from Pete  14 Muldoe, because he didn't tell me that I would be  15 receiving that name.  16 Q   I didn't suggest that that was the only time.  Your  17 evidence in chief was that you were asked to sit where  18 you did because the then Gitludahl wanted you to learn  19 from Pete Muldoe and to be close to him, and you  20 agreed that that was so?  21 A   Close in proximity, yes.  22 Q   And to learn from him?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Yes.  And my suggestion to you is that you didn't  25 learn from December of 1985 until February of 1987  26 that the name that was conferred before upon you in  27 December of 1985 was a chiefly name?  28 A   I think you misunderstand something.  I was sitting  29 opposite Pete Muldoe at the table of Wiigyet from 1974  30 until 1985.  31 Q   Yes?  32 A   From that point on Pete Muldoe moved to another table.  33 Q   And you continued to sit at the House of Wiigyet?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Yes?  36 A   I didn't sit across from him between 1985 and the  37 present.  38 Q   But by 1985 you had become close to Pete Muldoe other  39 than at the feast?  40 A  Well, when we're talking about close, I'm talking  41 about Moses Morrison wanted me to sit near him.  42 Q   Yes.  And to learn from him?  43 A  And to learn from him.  44 Q   Two separate things?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And I'm suggesting to you that from December 1985  47 until February 1987 your evidence is that you didn't 326?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 learn from Pete Muldoe that you were holding a chiefly  2 name; is that the thrust of your evidence?  3 A   I was not aware of the status of that name, and even  4 when I discussed it I still wasn't certain, so finally  5 in the spring of 1988 I spent some time with Pete, and  6 during that period I asked him.  7 Q   Of course you were seeing Pete Muldoe between December  8 1985 and February 1987 on a fairly regular basis,  9 weren't you?  10 A   Yes, I was.  11 Q   Yes.  And you never inquired of him about your status?  12 A  Well, that's -- it's a -- I was curious about the  13 status of the name, but it's not for me to walk around  14 asking about it, but in the spring of 1988 I -- I had  15 been asked some questions and I did not know how that  16 name was viewed, and one of the reasons that I was --  17 I could not -- I was uncertain about the status of  18 that name is because it was, as far as I understood,  19 was a crest name on the totem pole of Gitludahl until  20 about 1970, and I didn't know when it went from -- on  21 what basis Moses Morrison gave the name to Alvin  22 Weget, and to the best of my knowledge I did not know  23 that it had ever been a name on a person prior to  24 1970, so I simply did not understand the status of the  2 5 name.  26 Q   But notwithstanding the impropriety of asking  27 questions, you did so in the spring of 1988 and  28 clarified the status of your name; is that your  29 evidence?  30 A   Yes.  I wanted to know how Pete Muldoe viewed that  31 name.  32 Q   And you wanted to know for the purpose of adding  33 weight to your evidence in this case?  34 A   No.  I wanted to -- if I was asked a question by  35 anyone, if it was simply if Pete Muldoe viewed the  36 name as a regular name in the house, not a chief's  37 name, I wanted to be able to say that.  38 Q   Well, you had already answered the question in  39 February 1987 by saying no, it is not a chief's name,  40 so why were you interested in finding out whether it  41 was a chief's name?  42 A   In February of 1987 I was curious about it, I was -- I  43 said it wasn't because of my understanding of the  44 history of the name, and -- but at the same time there  45 was some doubt about it, I was -- and I eventually  46 inquired to find out what the status was, and I talked  47 to Alvin Weget as well. 3269  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  A   '  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A   '  21  MR.  GOLDIE  22  23  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  MR.  GOLDIE  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  MR.  GOLDIE  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  MR.  GOLDIE  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  For the purposes of this lawsuit?  Well, it would have satisfied me to know that it was  not a hereditary chief's name.  I was -- I mean it's  as simple as that.  If that's what it was, if that's  how people viewed it, there's no difficulty with that.  Pete Muldoe, I believe he respects me and views that I  have certain qualities, and I guess from that basis  that's how he viewed the name with respect to me, and  that's it.  You had already said in this lawsuit that your name  wasn't that of a hereditary chief.  You wanted to be  able to say that you were a hereditary chief, isn't  that the reason you asked Pete Muldoe?  No, that's wrong, I would not do that, that's wrong.  I've already explained the situation.  If in the eyes  of Pete Muldoe he considered me or the name not to be  a hereditary chief, then that is fine with me.  All that that would have done is confirm the answer  you gave in February of 1987?  Which I had some uncertainty about.  :  Um-hum.  The -- you gave evidence in the same  transcript, I see, about your grandfather, Charles  Sterritt.  Which transcript please?  :  Volume 112.  He was --  Is there a reference that we can --  :  No.  I don't need a reference.  No, I know you don't need one.  I assume the witness doesn't either, but if he does  we'll give it to him.  Charlie or Charles Sterritt was  your father's stepfather, was he?  No.  Was he your father's father?  Yes.  The reason I ask is that it was not clear to me  whether Charles Sterritt was your father's stepfather  having married Kate Morrison as a second husband, but  you tell me that Charles Sterritt was -- or Charlie  Sterritt was your father's father?  Yes.  And he was the man that you described as having logged  in a variety of places with your father, that is to  say he's the grandfather that you refer to?  Yes.  And he was a rancher as well as a logger?  Yes, he was. 8270  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   And he had a homestead near Kispiox, did he not?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Where he had pre-empted 160 acres?  4 A   I don't know the acreage, but I know there was some  5 land in that area, yes.  6 Q   That he had pre-empted?  7 A   I don't know the status of it.  8 Q   Well, I appreciate the fact that it was long before  9 your time, but --  10 A  My father told me they were there.  I don't know the  11 spaces of the land.  12 Q   And I'm going to show you under tab 4 of Exhibit 7 --  13 well, it's the book of documents, I should say, a  14 photocopy of a form under the Land Act, and do you --  15 do you recognize your grandfather's signature, or do  16 you recognize that as the signature of your  17 grandfather?  18 A   I don't recognize my grandfather's signature.  I see a  19 name there.  20 Q   Yeah.  That's all you recognize?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   All right.  Do you know where the south-west quarter  23 of lot 2540 is?  24 A   No, I don't.  25 Q   Where was your grandfather's farm, across the Kispiox  26 River from the Village of Kispiox?  27 A  As I understand it, it was on the west side of the  28 Kispiox and upstream.  29 Q   From the village?  30 A   From the village.  31 Q   But reasonably close to it?  32 A  Within a -- within two or three miles, I believe.  33 Q   Um-hum.  Was -- your grandfather's Gitksan name was  34 Haaxw, H-a-a-x-w?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   But your grandfather's father was a white person, was  37 he not?  38 A   To the best of my knowledge, my grandfather's father  39 was a man by the name of Charles Sterritt.  40 Q   Yes.  And he was not a Gitksan?  41 A   No.  42 Q   But Charles himself, your grandfather, took -- was a  43 member of the house of his mother?  44 A   Yes.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  And that's where he got the name, would that be so?  4 6    THE COURT:  You mean where he got his chiefly name?  47    MR. GOLDIE: 8271  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Yes.  By reason of his membership in his mother's  2 house?  3 A   Yes.  From one of his uncles.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  5 THE COURT:  What house was that?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q  That's -- his mother's house would be the House of  8 Haaxw, would it not?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Yes.  And your grandmother's name was Kate Morrison?  11 A   Yes, it was.  12 Q   And she of course was a Gitksan?  13 A   Yes, she was.  14 Q   Yes.  And your father takes his membership in her  15 house?  16 A   Yes, he does.  17 Q   Yes.  Now, you told us that on several occasions that  18 the -- because the feasts would be conducted in  19 Gitksan that you would quite often not get what was  20 said.  I think your latest example of that was at the  21 feast where you took your present name?  22 A   The -- there are different aspects to the feast, and  23 in the closing speeches when the guests are thanking  24 the hosts and the hosts are -- and also witnessing the  25 business, the hosts are also doing their final  26 business, it's in Gitksan, and that part I can follow  27 to a certain extent, but not completely.  28 Q   Well, I think you told us, for instance, that when the  29 adaawk was told at the feast at which you took your  30 present name you only picked up parts of it?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Now, and that confirms what you told me on your  33 examination for discovery, does it not?  34 A   I don't recall.  35 Q   Well, I refer you to question 379 to 382 in volume 1  36 of your discovery:  37  38 "379   Q Yes.  I will come back to that in a  39 minute.  Other means of obtaining  40 information, did you attend feasts at  41 which information was acquired by you  42 with respect to the geography and  43 history of the boundaries?  44 A Feasts were conducted in Gitksan and  45 I wouldn't necessarily with the  46 language, if they were speaking about  47 boundaries, necessarily get all 8272  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 of that at that time.  2 380   Q So the feasts because of your  3 language difficulty wouldn't be as  4 fruitful a source of information as  5 a direct discussion with the  6 hereditary chiefs; is that a fair way  7 of putting it??  8 A Not for me, yes.  9 381   Q Yes.  I take it that the discussions  10 you had with the hereditary chiefs  11 were in English?  12 A Partly.  13 382   Q Did you have with you interpreters?  14 A Sometimes.  Or the discussion would  15 be much slower and I could follow  16 it."  17  18 Were you asked those questions and did you give those  19 answers?  20 A   Yes, I did.  21 Q   And were the answers true?  22 A   The -- yes, they are true, but I also during a feast,  23 while sitting with someone like Pete Muldoe, would --  24 we would discuss territories and I would write notes,  25 but that was not necessarily related to the business  26 of the feast that was being carried on.  27 Q   Well, you have filed copies of notes taken at feasts,  28 or your counsel on your behalf has filed copies of  29 notes taken at feasts; that's so, is it not?  30 A   Yes, it is.  31 Q   These would not be then of much value as to  32 territories because of your language difficulty?  33 A  What I just pointed out is that in the feast I sat  34 across from Pete Muldoe for 11 years, and during the  35 feast he would explain territories to me and I would  36 do sketches either on the table, paper, the paper that  37 was on top of the table, or in a field book eventually  38 that I was carrying to the feast, and also from time  39 to time I would talk to other people in the feast and  40 make notes.  So at the feast they were from that  41 perspective I did obtain information, but in terms of  42 the -- the business that was being conducted in  43 relation to if it was connected with the territory, if  44 they were closing in their closing speeches, talking  45 about the territory, then I had some difficulty  46 getting all of that information or getting that  47 information. 8273  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Well, let me put it this way:  That the information  2 about territory and the -- in the notes of your feast  3 is largely a reflection of what Pete Muldoe told you,  4 Pete Muldoe and others?  5 A   Pete Muldoe -- yes.  Pete Muldoe and others.  6 Q   Yes.  And you relied upon them to advise you of what  7 was going on when the Gitksan language was being used?  8 A   No.  In that -- in those situations the -- the  9 information that Pete or others would be providing me  10 with may not have anything to do with the business  11 that was going on in the feast.  12 Q   I see, all right?  13 A  And it was -- you've never -- I don't know whether  14 you've ever attended a feast, but there's a lot of  15 business and you -- or it takes a long time, it could  16 start, oh, six o'clock in the evening and go until six  17 in the morning.  18 Q   That sounds familiar.  19 A  And there are -- there's time to sit down and talk to  20 Pete Muldoe or other persons while that's going on.  21 Q   Yes.  Well, the discussion then that you had with Pete  22 Muldoe, just to take him as the primary example, might  23 often have nothing to do with what was going on in the  24 feast at that particular moment.  He would be  25 answering your questions or telling you what somebody  26 said before, or something of that order?  27 A  Well, I think I've characterized it -- well, I have  28 characterized it myself in the proper way, and I think  29 there's nothing wrong with that.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  And of course, Pete Muldoe was well  31 aware of the responsibility that you had been given by  32 the hereditary chiefs to get the Land Claims underway?  33 MR. RUSH:  Isn't that a question that should have been put to  34 Pete Muldoe, my lord?  35 THE COURT:  Well, it could have been put to him, but I suppose  36 strictly speaking in the form in which the question is  37 asked you're quite right.  It could be put in another  38 way that would not be objectionable.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   Well, let's go back a step.  Under tab 2 of the book  41 of documents, if that could be placed before the  42 witness, Exhibit 116 is the resolution that was passed  43 on April 3rd, 1975, and one of those adopting or  44 signing the resolution was Pete Muldoe?  45 A   Yes, Pete Muldoe.  46 Q   Yes?  47 A   His name is on there. 3274  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  He was one of those that then instructed you at the  time to get the Land Claims underway?  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, as at the time of your examination  for discovery you claimed to have little knowledge of  the -- of the history of your own house?  What I pointed out was that I did not have detailed  knowledge of the history of the house, I had some  knowledge, but not detailed, and also -- well, I had  some knowledge but not detailed knowledge.  MR. GOLDIE:  Um-hum.  Well, I'm going to read to you from volume  2, my lord, questions 825 to 834.  THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  A  Q  A  MR. GOLDIE:  THE COURT:  MR. GOLDIE:  Q  825 to 834  Um-hum.  325  A  326  327  A  Q  A  329  A  All right.  Now, from your own  knowledge has Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en laws got anything to do  with the directions given you by the  hereditary chiefs that you are not to  answer questions about their title  and jurisdiction?  They have -- you will have to ask the  hereditary chiefs.  No.  I am requesting you of your own  knowledge.  If you don't have  knowledge say so?  I have a limited amount of knowledge.  I want you to speak from that limited  amount of knowledge?  From that limited amount of knowledge  I am not sure whether that is part  of the law or why they did that.  I am not asking why they did that.  I  am asking you if you have any  knowledge of such a law?  And from  the answer you have given me you say,  I am not sure.  Is that a fair way  of putting it?  Yes. "  Were you asked those questions and did you give those  answers?  A   There was a question before those.  Can you read that,  please. 3275  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  A   '  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  THE  COURT:  20  21  22  23  24  A   '  25  MR.  GOLDIE  26  THE  COURT:  27  MR.  GOLDIE  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  MR.  GOLDIE  30  Q  31  32  A   '  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A   '  42  43  44  45  46  MR.  GOLDIE  47  I'm reading -- what question before that?  Well, leading into those questions.  Well, I'm asking you these questions.  If your counsel  wishes to interject he may do so, but my question is  were you asked those questions?  Yes.  I was asked those questions.  And did you give those answers?  Yes.  I gave those answers.  And were those answers true?  The situation that I found myself under at the time  was that I had been asked not to speak any adaawk, and  it was a double bind.  I was in terms of the court and  the respect that I had for the chiefs as well, it was  an awkward situation, and eventually I did give some  information, but the main point I made there was that  I did not have detailed knowledge and I did have some  knowledge and I was under orders from the chiefs not  to speak.  Well, Mr. Sterritt, this set of questions do not  create any of the kind of difficulty of which you  speak.  These are questions that were asked and you  gave these answers, it seems to me they're either true  or not?  Well, I gave those answers, yes.  And the answers were true?  Perhaps you should have them in front of him.  Yes, by all means, my lord.  I have notes on here, will that trouble you?  Well, the notes don't trouble me, no.  There's a clean  copy available, so I'll use that.  What numbers?  825 to 828.  That was my belief at the time, yes.  Yes.  Well, the answers were true then?  Yes.  Those are the answers I gave.  I know you gave the answers, Mr. Sterritt, but the  question was were the answers true?  Yes.  And are they true today?  Well, actually I don't understand the -- I don't fully  understand all of the questions there based on  question 825.  There's something that leads into that,  and I don't understand from 825 to 828 based on what  seems to be something that goes before.  :  Well, that is not my view.  You have answered those  questions, and the questions that I have selected 8276  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 appear to me to be self-contained.  Let me now ask you  2 the next series of questions.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, is this — is it essential that we carry  4 on?  5 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  That's all right, my lord.  6 THE COURT:  I think people have plans probably for a Friday  7 afternoon.  All right.  If it's convenient we'll break  8 and adjourn until Monday morning at ten o'clock, and  9 wish you all a very pleasant weekend.  Thank you.  10  11 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  12  13 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  14 a true and accurate transcript of the  15 proceedings herein transcribed to the  16 best of my skill and ability  17  18  19  20  21 Graham D. Parker  22 Official Reporter  23 United Reporting Service Ltd.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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