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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-11-28] British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 28, 1988

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 9776  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  SMITHERS, B.C.  November 28, 1988  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I would like to call Steve Robinson to the  stand. He's chief Spookw, one of the Plaintiffs, and  he has sworn an affidavit relating to territories, my  lord.  STEVE ROBINSON, a Plaintiff  herein, having been duly sworn,  testifies as follows;  THE REGISTRAR:  Please state your full name and spell your last  name for the court?  A   Steven Robinson, R-O-B-I-N-S-O-N.  THE COURT:  Sit down, please, if you wish?  A   Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Of course, my lord, this is, as you know,  cross-examination.  I just wanted to refer you to the  relevant affidavit, which is Exhibit 592 in the  Gitksan affidavits, and I would like to set out for  the record two errors which were transcription errors  that I was informed of as a result of reviewing this  matter with Mr. Robinson, and so that the exhibit can  be corrected and so that my friend can question on the  basis of this on the correct statement.  Firstly,  paragraph 2, the very last line it states --  THE COURT:  Just a moment, please, Mr. Grant, I will have to  extract it from its --  MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry.  THE COURT:  Second to last line?  MR. GRANT:  Yeah.  The second to last line of paragraph 2 of the  first page.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  I also have the name Mediigemgyet, which is a name  in Guuhadak's house.  That should read Yagosip's  house, Y-A-G-O-S-I-P.  And paragraph 13 on page 5, the  second sentence in that paragraph:  "The territory of Woosimlaxha borders on this  territory, as do the territories of Luutkudziiwus,  Axtii Dzeek, Spookw, and Guutginuxw."  THE COURT:  My copy's been corrected.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  So has mine.  MR. GRANT:  As Gutginuxw? 9777  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Fine, it wasn't corrected on my copy and I was  working with one without that correction, so it should  read Gutginuxw.  The only other matter, as a matter of  information, is that on -- I wish to just advise the  court on, I hope this isn't going to impair any  problems on redirect, but on Friday the 25th I  received around 12:20 a response to a request in light  of your wishes, although you made it clear that my  application you couldn't make an order on, and then  the response from my friend, Mr. Mackenzie, was as  follows, it says in general response to your request  Mr. Goldie's asked me to respond to your letter of  November 24, 1988 in which I requested a five-day  advance notice of documents:  "You request a list of documents which will be put  to witnesses under cross-examination.  You also  make specific reference to the Steven Robinson  cross-examination.  In general response to your request, it is simply  not possible to list every document to which we may  refer, nor do we understand the Chief Justice would  expect us to with respect to.  With respect to all cross-examinations, including  that of Steve Robinson, it will be helpful if each  witness is familiar with:  (a) the interrogatory response related to the  affiant's house;  (b) the interrogatory response related to  the house of each referred to in the  affidavit;  (c) registered traplines located in the  affiant's name; and  (d) registered traplines located in areas  referred to in the affidavit."  And then he says:  "Most of these traplines are identified in our  Notices to Admit dated August 12, 1988 and November  8, 1988."  And then he says:  "With respect to individual cross-examinations, we  may be able to identify in advance documents that 977?  Proceedings  1 the witness should be familiar with in addition to  2 those listed above."  3  4 And then he gives examples.  He gives three documents  5 regarding Johnny David, who's a witness that you will  6 see later this week.  My friend then responded.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  My friend is going to read the rest of the  8 letter, I presume, the last two paragraphs in the --  9 MR. GRANT:  10 "We may be able to identify other documents which  11 may be referred to.  Whether we can will depend on  12 our continuing preparation, including the  13 examination of field and interview notes which have  14 recently been delivered to us, and upon the answers  15 the witness gives on his cross-examination.  16 We repeat, the lists above do not exhaust the  17 documents to which reference may be made."  18  19 Now, then later in the afternoon, and I do not have my  20 hand on the document, my friends responded with  21 respect to certain specific documents for Steve  22 Robinson, and it was with respect to the Spookw and  23 Yagosip genealogy, Dora Wilson Kenni evidence which is  24 six volumes of evidence, Pete Muldoe's evidence, and  25 he refers to two volumes of cross-examination, a  26 Petition of Right, the affidavit of Steven Robinson  27 sworn November 1983, and then he refers to a series of  28 pleadings, the first pleadings of October 23rd, '84,  29 the Writ of Summons and Statement of Claim, the Writ  30 of Summons and Statement of Claim September 10th,  31 1986, and the Writ of Summons dated October 27th, '86.  32 And then he refers, as he does with other witnesses,  33 to Neil Sterritt's journals and field notes relating  34 to Steve Robinson at various dates.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  And my friend, I'm sure, will read the last  36 paragraph of that letter.  37 MR. GRANT:  He then repeats:  38  39 "That the list in my earlier letter and the list  4 0 above do not exhaust the documents to which  41 reference may be made."  42  43 I haven't heard anything from the federal defendants  44 regarding this at all with respect to Steve Robinson  45 or generally.  All I'm saying -- and then on Saturday  46 a listing about 4:00 -- 4:30 on Saturday was FAXed to  47 my office regarding Dora Kenni.  All I'm saying, my 9779  Proceedings  1 lord, is that I do not wish any delay as a result of  2 this, but that it's very problematic to be given at, I  3 believe it was about 4:00 or 4:30 on Friday afternoon  4 for this witness, six volumes of transcript evidence  5 to which reference may be referred, and which he  6 should have an opportunity to read.  Needless to say,  7 he was unable to do that.  And I wouldn't expect my  8 friend -- and with respect to Johnny David, Johnny  9 David is a witness who has been examined over seven  10 days on commission evidence, and my friend requested  11 he read a transcript of proceedings.  It's obvious  12 from the transcript and also from the observation of  13 Mr. David, Mr. David doesn't read, of course, and this  14 is another whole transcript my friend raises.  The  15 final point is that my friends requested documents  16 referred to in a series of interrogatories.  They  17 requested them in September 16th by letter of Miss  18 Sigurdson, and with respect to Mr. Robinson this  19 entails feast books, and I have photocopied the  20 necessary sections.  I just have to make sure they're  21 correct, and I will be delivering them to my friend  22 today at noon, but Mr. Robinson is scheduled to be on  23 today and until tomorrow at noon, and I would expect  24 that they would have a chance to look at those feast  25 books in advance.  26 THE COURT:  Well, I have heard allegations on both — on all  27 sides about late notice and surprise and difficulties,  28 and I have no doubt that -- no doubt about the latter.  29 Everyone is functioning under extreme difficulties and  30 time pressures, and I don't think I can really do  31 anything about it.  I think we have to proceed as best  32 we can and deal with difficulties, individual  33 difficulties as they arise.  Are you ready to proceed,  34 Mr. Mackenzie?  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  36 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, your lordship took the words right  38 out of my mouth, so I won't repeat what your lordship  39 just said.  4 0    THE COURT:  Thank you.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I do have to — I do have to say, my lord,  42 though that on Friday we received one of the most  43 important genealogies in this case, that was dated  44 January 1988, something we've been looking for for  45 quite a long time relating to this witness, and we got  46 it Friday afternoon.  It's the Yagosip genealogy.  47 MR. GRANT:  That's the Yagosip-Guuhadak genealogy that my friend 9780  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 was referring to.  Those are two separately named  2 persons, but the genealogy is one.  3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  I notice Miss Brower is with us.  If she  4 wants to resume her place in the jury box, please,  5 you're welcome to do so.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q   My lord, Mr. Darryl 0'Byrne from Terrace will be  8 assisting counsel on this case as well, so he will be  9 joining counsel from time to time during this  10 three-week period.  I'll take the opportunity to  11 introduce Mr. 0'Byrne to the court when he joins us,  12 he's now involved in out-of-court examinations.  Mr.  13 Robinson, you have prepared a territorial affidavit in  14 these proceedings which has just been referred to by  15 your friend -- my friend?  16 A  What territory is it?  17 Q   Yes.  You prepared an affidavit relating to certain  18 territories?  19 A   Yes, I do.  20 Q   Yes.  And you referred to the territory of Spookw in  21 that affidavit?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And generally speaking, that's near New Hazelton and  24 Seeley Lake?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And you referred to the territory of Yagosip in your  27 affidavit?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And generally speaking, that is an area that goes from  30 the Bulkley River up past Nine Mile Mountain?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And you referred to the territory of Woosimlaxha in  33 that affidavit?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And generally speaking, that's the area around  36 Robinson Lake near Hazelton?  37 A   North of Hazelton, yes.  38 Q   Can we have the numbers of the names, please?  39 Woosimlaxha is Victor Mowatt, correct?  40 A   Correct.  41 Q   Right.  And in your affidavit you refer to another  42 territory of Yagosip, correct?  43 A   Is that the territory up the Kispiox River you're  44 talking about?  45 Q   Yes?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Yes.  And you refer to a territory of Nika Te'en? 9781  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Pronounce that name again?  2 Q   You referred to the territory of Nika Te'en near Glen  3 Mountain?  4 A  According to the word nicotine(sic) is some kind of a  5 drug in cigarette.  I don't think that's the proper  6 name.  7 Q   Yes?  8 A   Nika Te'en.  9 Q   Yes.  So you referred to a territory, Nika Te'en?  10 A   Pronounce it right so I can understand.  Yes, I do.  11 Q   Yes.  Nika Te'en is James Woods, correct?  12 A   Junior.  13 Q   Yes.  And his territory is also near Hazelton in the  14 Glen Mountain area?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And your affidavit also includes one more territory,  17 and that's another territory of James Woods, Jr.,  18 correct?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And that's near South Hazelton?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Yes.  Yagosip is your sister, Joyce Turner, correct?  23 A   That is true.  24 Q   Yes.  Now, in paragraph 2 of your affidavit you give  25 your chief's name as Spookw, and you are the head  26 chief of the House of Spookw?  27 A   That is correct.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And do you claim any territory other than  29 the territory referred to in section A, that is the  30 Stekyawdenhl territory in your affidavit?  31 MR. GRANT:  Is my friend referring to Spookw, because he also  32 says he has another chief's name.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q   Yes.  For the House of Spookw?  35 A   I didn't get your question there.  36 Q   For the House of Spookw do you claim any territory  37 other than that territory at Stekyawdenhl?  38 A  Within the area of Stekyawdenhl?  39 Q   Yes?  40 A   There's no other territory outside of Stekyawdenhl  41 territory that Spookw is claiming, no, because that's  42 just within the area.  43 Q   But Spookw has owned other territory in the past,  44 hasn't he?  45 A   I'm sorry, your honour, I don't know whether Spookw  46 had a territory in the past except the ones that is on  47 my affidavit. 9782  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  THE COURT  45  A  46  THE COURT  47  A  So Spookw had a -- used to have a territory at  Mosquito Flats, didn't he?  No.  Do you recall telling Neil Sterritt that Spookw used  to own a territory at Mosquito Flats?  Not that I recall.  All right.  Now, the second person for whom you spoke  about territories is Yagosip, and did the House of  Yagosip claim any territories other than the Nine Mile  Mountain territory and the Kispiox territory in  section B and section D of your affidavit?  When you say section B and section D, I couldn't  understand what you're talking about, that's alphabet.  Does Yagosip claim any territories other than the two  territories referred to in your affidavit?  Not that I know of.  Do the members of the House of Yagosip claim any  territories other than the two Yagosip territories  described in your affidavit?  Within Yagosip's house you're talking about, or with  the other houses?  Yes.  Members of the House of Yagosip?  Not that I know of.  Well, you know that several members of the House of  Yagosip are also members of the House of Guuhadak?  Through the genealogy, yes.  And those people are members of both Guuhadak and  Yagosip?  And also Wii Kaax.  Those people are members of Yagosip, Guuhadak and Wii  Kaax?  Yes.  Do the members of the House of Yagosip claim Wii  Kaax's territory?  Not that I know of.  But there are --  But there are members of Wii Kaax.  Do the members of the House of Yagosip claim  Guuhadak's territory?  There's one territory that they're both wrong.  They  use -- I mean Guuhadak generally use it, but he  doesn't claim it, it's Yagosip's, but he uses it, and  that's at Nine Mile.  :  Who does it belong to?  Yagosip.  :  And who uses it?  Guuhadak.  That's in the past. 9783  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 MR. GRANT:  That would be the one at B that he's referring to,  3 my lord.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   Section B in the affidavit, my lord.  And Guuhadak  6 also uses territories within Wii Kaax's territory,  7 doesn't he?  8 A   I believe so.  9 Q   Yes.  And a third chief mentioned in your affidavit is  10 Victor Mowatt, Woosimlaxha, and he's mentioned in  11 section C.  Does he claim any territories other than  12 those in your affidavit?  13 A   Not that I know of.  14 Q   The fourth chief mentioned in your affidavit is James  15 Woods, Jr., Nika Te'en.  Does he claim any territories  16 other than the two territories referred to in your  17 affidavit?  18 A   Not that I know of.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  And those are the territories in section E of  20 the affidavit and sex F of the affidavit.  21 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, you said for Woosimlaxha paragraphs C and  22 F?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  Section C, my lord, is Victor Mowatt,  24 Woosimlaxha.  Section E and F are James Woods, Jr.,  25 Nika Te'en.  2 6 THE COURT:  All right.  27 MR. GRANT:  My lord, of course they're on the desk copy of the  28 9-A, which may be of assistance to you in terms of  29 their proximity.  Of 9-A?  9-A, which you have that.  Yes.  If I could have that handed up here, if I  33 might --  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   Now, except for the Yagosip Kispiox territory, all  36 these territories are close to Hazelton, correct?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And all these territories are used by people from  39 Gitanmaax?  40 A   Not the whole Gitanmaax because there's different  41 clans on Gitanmaax.  It's used by Lax Gibuu.  42 Q   They're used by members of the wolf clan?  43 A  Wolf clan.  44 Q   At Gitanmaax?  45 A  At Gitanmaax.  And other Lax Gibuu, because when  46 you're in the same tribe you're not restricted because  47 they help each other in the feast hall, they work  3 0    THE COURT  31 MR. GRANT  32 THE COURT 9784  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 together, and you say when you're in the same tribe  2 and now you're speaking about Lax Gibuu, wolf clan?  3 A   Lax Gibuu, wolf clan, because they work together.  4 Q   Yes, that's correct.  And Wii Kaax is also in Lax  5 Gibuu, wolf clan?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And Guuhadak is also also in Lax Gibuu, wolf clan?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   But Woosimlaxha is Kisgegas, fireweed, correct?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Paragraph 2 of your affidavit you say that you also  12 hold the name Mediigemgyet?  13 A  Mediigemgyet.  14 Q   Mediigemgyet?  15 A   Yes.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Correct?  17 THE COURT:  Excuse me a moment, Mr. Mackenzie, these documents I  18 have here are the exhibits, are they not?  19 MR. GRANT:  I believe so.  20 THE COURT:  Yes.  I think that's probably right.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have a copy of the affidavit?  22 THE COURT:  I think not.  That's what I was wondering about.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's Exhibit 592.  I have an extra copy for your  24 lordship.  25 THE COURT:  That would be helpful, because then I would make  26 notes on it without marking up the exhibit.  I think  27 that would be preferable.  28 MR. GRANT:  Possibly the Exhibit 592 could be put in front of  29 the witness.  30 THE COURT:  Yes.  I believe that's a good idea.  31 MR. GRANT:  So he can see what sections my friend is referring  32 to.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I'm not going to be asking Mr. Robinson to  34 refer to the affidavit until later, my lord.  My lord,  35 was your lordship following a reference to the various  36 sections and --  37 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, yes, I was, thank you.  38 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, this is exhibit —  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  592, my lord.  4 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, perhaps could your lordship perhaps put  42 in the correction that Mr. Grant mentioned.  It's in  43 paragraph 2 on the bottom line, and:  44  45 "I also have the name Madiigemgyet, which is a name  46 in Yagosip's house" --  47 9785  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Strike out "Guuhadak" and insert "Yagosip".  2 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  And then I'm confirming with your lordship that  4 your lordship's copy also has the other correction  5 mentioned by Mr. Grant would be page 5, paragraph 13.  6 THE COURT:  Yes, it's here.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   Thank you, my lord.  Now, Mr. Robinson, you hold the  9 name Mediigemgyet, correct?  10 A   Correct.  11 Q   That is a name, you say, in Yagosip's house?  12 A   Correct.  13 Q   In fact, it's a name in Guuhadak's house also, isn't  14 it?  15 A   Not necessarily.  It's Yagosip.  16 Q   So you're telling us that it is not a name in the  17 House of Guuhadak?  18 A   Not what I said on the affidavit.  19 Q   Is there another name like that in Guuhadak?  20 A   Not that I know of.  21 Q   Well, if that name is in Yagosip's house, why did you  22 have Guuhadak in your affidavit?  23 A   Guuhadak is passed away, and I'm taking care of it for  24 the time being, so they're intertwined with Yagosip.  25 And the same as Wii Kaax, they're all way in the back  26 quite a few years back, they're all under Guuhadak's  27 house, and Guuhadak moved down to Gitanmaax and he  28 established a house in Gitanmaax and in later years, I  29 don't know how many years past, Yagosip leave Wii  30 Kaax's house and move down to Gitanmaax and get  31 together with Guuhadak, and then after this movement,  32 that's why you've seen -- Wii Kaax's genealogy didn't  33 include them, because they move down, the movement of  34 these people that belongs to Wii Kaax and establish  35 their houses in Gitanmaax.  36 Q   So is it fair to say that there was some confusion as  37 to whether Mediigemgyet was in Guuhadak or in Yagosip?  38 A   There's no confusion there.  39 Q   Do you know when the move from Kisgegas down to  40 Hazelton took place?  41 A   You mean what year?  42 Q   Yes?  43 A   I got no idea.  44 Q   A long time ago?  45 A  A long time ago, maybe even before you people come to  4 6 Canada.  47 Q   Yes.  So if one were to say that the name of 9786  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Mediigemgyet was a name in Guuhadak, that person would  2 be wrong?  3 A   Not necessarily wrong, because they're intertwined,  4 you see.  5 Q   I see.  But you're telling us now that Mediigemgyet is  6 in Yagosip?  7 A  Mediigemgyet is in Yagosip?  8 Q   Yes?  9 A   If you can look back in my interrogatory you can see  10 these names on there.  Maybe you haven't read it and  11 that's why you are trying to -- I think you're a  12 little bit more confused than I do.  13 Q   That's probably true.  14 A   Yes.  Because it states Mediigemgyet and Haidax are in  15 Yagosip's house, and --  16 Q   Yes.  Mrs. Dora Wilson Kenni and Mr. Grant told us  17 some time ago that Mediigemgyet was in Guuhadak,  18 that's the reason I'm asking the question.  Now, you  19 speak in your interrogatory of Mediigemgyet's house.  20 Did Mediigemgyet have a house?  21 A   Yes.  It's in the same house as Yagosip.  When you  22 grow up and you have a father, and if anybody asks you  23 have you got a house, and you'll say "Yes, I've got a  24 house and whose house is my father's", because that's  25 the same thing, because you're a member of the house  26 and that's your house, whose house is your father's.  27 Q   So your evidence is that now Mediigemgyet does not  28 have a separate house?  29 A   Not have a separate house, but they have the same  30 house within Yagosip, and Yagosip is the head person  31 in that house.  32 Q   So the members of the House of Mediigemgyet are in  33 Yagosip, is that correct?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Now, you've told us that Joyce Turner, Yagosip, is  36 your sister, correct?  37 A   Right.  38 Q   And her children are in the House of Mediigemgyet,  39 aren't they?  4 0 A  Mediigemgyet?  41 Q   Yes?  42 A   I don't remember if Mediigemgyet had a house except  43 Yagosip's.  44 Q   So is it fair to say you don't know whether Joyce  45 Turner's children are in the House of Mediigemgyet?  46 A   I just got through telling you, maybe you didn't hear,  47 Mediigemgyet has no house, it's the House of Yagosip, 9787  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 because they're in the House of Yagosip.  That's the  2 only reason why Mediigemgyet, when he says "my house",  3 and that means that's Yagosip's, the head chief is the  4 main person in that house.  5 Q   Joyce Turner's?  Are you aware that some of Joyce  6 Turner's grandchildren are in the House of Luus?  7 A   Luus?  8 Q   That is Corrie D. Turner, born in 1980?  9 A   Luus?  Not that I know of.  10 Q   Are you aware that some of Joyce Turner's  11 grandchildren, or at least one, Charlie Witwer,  12 W-I-T-W-E-R, are in the House of Luutkudziiwas; she  13 was born 1985?  14 A   Joyce Turner's?  15 Q   Grandchild?  16 A   House of Luutkudziiwas?  Not that I know of.  17 Q   So if Joyce Turner, your sister, were to say that her  18 children were in the House of Mediigemgyet, she means  19 they're in Yagosip, correct?  20 A   Generally, yes.  21 Q   Yes.  Now, you say "generally".  Would there be any  22 exception to that rule?  23 A  Well, it's still Yagosip's —  24 Q   Yes?  25 A   House.  26 Q   Yes.  Now, you took the name Mediigemgyet after the  27 death of Tommy Muldoe, is that correct?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   And what year would that be?  30 A   It's in the 50's.  31 Q   And Tommy Muldoe held a chief's name, Spookw?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And did he also -- was he also a member of Yagosip's  34 house?  35 A   Is Tommy Muldoe -- he's a member, if I remember  36 correctly, he's Guuhadak's house.  37 Q   Yes.  38 Q   So Tommy Muldoe's name, Mediigemgyet, was a name in  39 the House of Guuhadak, correct?  40 A   His genealogy is from Guuhadak, but he got the name of  41 Guuhadak from Yagosip's house.  42 Q   So was he a member of Guuhadak's house?  43 A   He's a member of Guuhadak's house from Wii Kaax, same  44 as Yagosip.  45 Q   So what we had then is that Tommy Muldoe was a member  46 of the House of Guuhadak, he held a name,  47 Mediigemgyet, and in Yagosip, and he later took the 9788  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  THE COURT  41  A  42  MR. macke:  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  name of Spookw in the House of Spookw, correct?  He didn't take the name Spookw later.  You see,  when -- you're talking about Tommy Muldoe?  Yes?  Yes.  I think you're right there, because Mediigemgyet  is the first name that he took until Frank Clarke, the  former Guuhadak, died, that's when Tommy Muldoe took  the name of Spookw.  And you took the name Spookw after Johnson Alexander  died in 1972?  No.  I took the name of Spookw when Tommy Muldoe died,  both names.  Well, you took the name Spookw in the 1950's?  In the 1950's.  And if someone were to say that you took the name  after Johnson Alexander's death, that would be  incorrect?  Well, it would be incorrect.  It's this way because he  had an opportunity to take the name, but he didn't  take it at the death of Frank Clarke.  You're speaking of Johnson Alexander?  Johnson Alexander.  Yes.  Now, Frank -- when did Frank Clarke die?  Around the '40's, '41, I believe it was.  By the way, Frank Clarke is one of the people who  taught you about the territory of Spookw, correct?  Yes.  And he passed away in about 1941?  Yes.  So -- and let me just try and wrap this up on this  subject, if I can, which may be difficult, but let me  ask you this:  Before you took the names Mediigemgyet  and Spookw you held the name Wagalwil?  That is correct.  And David Green holds that name now, correct?  Yes.  And that is a name in the House of Wii Kaax, correct?  Excuse me, your honour, I have to drink a little bit  of the water before I answer.  :  Yes, fine.  Yes.  JZIE:  Your mother, Molly Robinson, was also a member of the  House of Wii Kaax?  Yes.  You were born a member of the House of Wii Kaax?  It's a long story, but I'll make it short.  It has -- 9789  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 when my mother was a young girl and she was adopted by  2 Mary May.  My mother's mother is Wagalwil from Wii  3 Kaax's house in Kisgegas.  4 Q   And Mary May was a Yagosip?  5 A  Mary May is Guuhadak's house.  6 Q   I beg your pardon.  I won't make anymore suggestions  7 to you, perhaps you can finish your story.  So she was  8 adopted by Mary May in Guuhadak's house?  9 A   In Guuhadak's house.  10 Q   Yes?  11 A  And that's where we are at the time until -- it's this  12 way, because Mary May is the sister of Yagosip, that's  13 James May, you see, that's how they work together,  14 work together to keep the both houses alive.  This is  15 the reason why they move back and forth, and it's  16 still going on today, you see, like they don't want  17 the other house to go weak.  That's the same way with  18 Spookw.  You see, the reason why Frank Clarke took the  19 Spookw name when he was -- I mean Edward Clarke when  20 he was Guuhadak, to protect and to keep Spookw's name  21 alive in Gitanmaax, and that's -- that's working  22 together, and they passed Guuhadak onto his brother,  23 Frank Clarke, and then when he died, Edward Clarke  24 died, Frank took Spookw and passed Guuhadak down to  25 Beal Muldoe, and then when Beal passed away Thomas  26 Wright took Guuhadak.  Are you following me?  27 Q   Yes.  I'm trying to picture that in my mind.  May I --  28 sorry?  29 A  And then at that time, you see, like Tommy Muldoe  30 originally from Guuhadak's house got the name from  31 Yagosip's house, Mediigemgyet.  I don't know how that  32 worked in, but he got it and he hanged onto it until  33 Frank Clarke died, and then he took on Spookw, and  34 then when he died I took the both names, because in a  35 way that my grandfather is holding Spookw's name all  36 these years for protection, so I'm hanging onto part  37 of my real genealogy in Yagosip's house.  38 Q   Yes.  39 A  And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.  40 Q   Not at all.  41 A  And that's the way it stands today.  42 Q   Yes?  43 A  And I hope that explains the whole thing from Frank  44 Clarke down.  I hope you grasp that -- grasp that in  45 your mind and remember it.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  47 THE COURT:  Well, tell me, how do you and your sister belong to 9790  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  A  3  4  5  6  THE  COURT  7  8  A  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  A  13  THE  COURT  14  A  15  THE  COURT  16  17  A  18  THE  COURT  19  A  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  macke:  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  different houses?  It's actually what I mean is that the protection of  the other house, because there is -- you know, if  nobody picks up the other name from the other house,  you know, it weakens it.  :  Well, what you were saying, that your sister picked  up the name Yagosip?  No.  That's the original house that she belongs to and  that's the original house I belonged to, but it's me  that —  :  You've moved out of that house?  Not exactly.  :  Yes?  You know, you still hang onto your --  :  Mediigemgyet that belongs to Yagosip's house, that  you're still a member there?  Yeah, you see?  :  Yeah?  You see, if any problem that my sister have, I will  have to go back there and help her out.  And the same  way with Spookw's family.  :  Thank you.  JZIE:  So your mother was adopted into Yagosip and you were  born into Yagosip?  My mother wasn't adopted into Yagosip's house, she's  originally from Wii Kaax's house, but she was adopted  into Guuhadak's house.  So you were born in Guuhadak's house?  In a way, yes.  Which house?  Because that's the way my mother is.  Yes.  When you were -- sorry.  But I know I belong to Yagosip's house.  Oh, yes.  The day that you were born which house were  you a member?  Well, I'll tell you.  I've got a name that they put on  me when I was a boy, that's a young boy's name, Am  magit bux.  That's the name from Guuhadak's house.  Am magit bux?  Yes.  I think you learn fast.  That's nice for you to  pronounce it right.  And you were a member of Guuhadak's house?  Yes.  Because I've got that name as a young boy.  Well, let me ask you this:  Your mother was a member  of Guuhadak's house, correct?  Yes. 9791  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   So when you were born you became a member  2 automatically, did you not?  3 A   Yes.  Because when I got that name I was a member  4 because I go back again there in the same house, you  5 see, in a way when Yagosip moved down and he went in  6 and joined Guuhadak, but to have that two different  7 house, but they seemed to work together, and my mother  8 is Bagaiyt Daa, that that's Guuhadak's house.  9 Q   Yes.  I don't want to get too -- you have this clearly  10 in your mind, I don't want to get too far or too much  11 more into it, but can you tell me between the time  12 that you were born and you took the name, your child's  13 name, were you a member of a house?  14 A  What do you mean?  15 Q   You were given the name on birth?  16 A   No.  Before I was born I think, before I was conceived  17 I wasn't a member of any house, but when I was  18 conceived my mother was in Guuhadak's house, and then  19 that maybe this is where I belong then, but when I was  20 born I was born in Guuhadak's fold and then later on  21 when I grew up I got Wagalwil's name.  That means  22 that's part of my family tree, that's my auntie's  23 name, Wagalwil, Jessie Green, and then when she passed  24 away I took that name.  25 Q   Now, at the present time just -- the former Guuhadak  26 was Thomas Wright, correct?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And he died late last year?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And now you're holding the name Guuhadak, correct?  31 A   Yes.  That's true, yeah.  32 Q   And you're taking care of the name, correct?  33 A   I am taking care of the name right now, but when a  34 time comes, you see, there's three people -- as a  35 matter of fact, there's three head chiefs are involved  36 in this with me, Wii Kaax and Djogaslee, Guuhadak,  37 which is the main house, and Yagosip.  So in other  38 words, that I am the holder of that now, just, you  39 know, to look after it, but when we're going to select  40 who's going to be -- what word you going to say now --  41 successor, we pass it on, we will have to meet,  42 because Guuhadak genealogy is linked with Wii Kaax and  43 Yagosip's genealogy is linked with Wii Kaax -- and is  44 linked with Wii Kaax, so we have to work together to  45 get someone that is going to take the name.  It's not  46 my decision only, because we have to work together.  47 Q   You're also taking care of the name Spookw? 9792  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  THE COURT  21  MR. macke:  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  Not taking care of the name Spookw.  Okay.  If someone were to say you're taking care of  the name, that person would be incorrect?  In a way I think it's just a word of error or  something like that, or doesn't understand.  And now, right now which house are you a member?  I'm a member of the House of Spookw and Yagosip,  because I hold the name of Mediigemgyet and I hold the  name of Spookw.  And you say that Yagosip has a house that is separate  from Spookw?  Yes.  In a way when you come right down to it it's a  separate -- the same way with Guuhadak, we're separate  from Spookw.  And since you hold the name Guuhadak, are you also a  member of the House of Guuhadak?  At the present time, yes, because I'm the caretaker.  And are you also a member of the House of Wii Kaax?  In the genealogy, yes.  :  What's that house?  JZIE:  Wii Kaax?  Wii Kaax.  I'm sorry, yes, Wii Kaax.  And that's Neil B.  Sterritt, Sr., correct?  Neil B. Sterritt, yes.  Now, let me talk about that situation.  You have a  claim to the House of Spookw territories because  you're a member of the House of Spookw, correct?  Yes.  You have a claim to the Yagosip territories because  you're a member of the House of Yagosip, correct?  Not a claim.  I'm the spokesman because I represent  Yagosip, but I'm in that house also.  As a member of that house, of course, you can use  Yagosip's territories?  Well, I have to ask for permission because I'm still a  member of Spookw, I have to ask for permission, and  then if she -- if she says okay, I'll go there.  Yes?  And then in other words it's, you know, you're my  brother, you're free to go there, and then if a member  of Spookw's house want to use Yagosip's territory I  believe Yagosip would say yes, because we try to work  together.  And as a member of Guuhadak, do you have a claim to  the territories claimed by Guuhadak? 9793  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I don't know what territories that he claims.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, you told us that he used the territories  3 in Wii Kaax.  4 MR. GRANT:  No.  I think he said the territory of —  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   Excuse me, it's --  7 A   No.  I didn't agree.  8 Q   Sorry.  We don't want to interrupt your answer.  9 A   Because I don't know, I don't think -- I don't know  10 whether Guuhadak tell the court what land that he  11 claimed.  12 Q   Well, first of all you're Guuhadak now, correct?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Do you know which land Guuhadak claims?  15 A   I know which land that Guuhadak used to use, I know  16 that territory.  17 Q   Yes.  Thomas Wright said that his territory's north of  18 Kisgegas, he said in his interrogatory.  I take it you  19 agree with that?  20 A   You mean north of Kisgegas?  21 Q   Yes?  22 A  And he claimed that that's his?  23 Q   Yes?  24 A   He didn't say anything other than that?  25 Q   No.  He also said that he uses Wii Kaax's territory?  26 A  Well.  I believe the latter part is right.  27 Q   Yes.  So as Guuhadak and a member of the House of  28 Guuhadak you use those territories as well, or you  29 have a right to use those territories?  30 A   I don't know whether I have a right or whether I have  31 not, because I haven't talked to Wii Kaax about it.  32 Q   Now, as I think you said that you also have a  33 relationship, or your genealogy includes Wii Kaax.  Do  34 you have a claim or a right to use Wii Kaax's  35 territory?  36 A   You see, it's up to the head chief who would use his  37 territory, and then if he says in the feast hall and  38 he called me, he said "Here's Mediigemgyet, the member  39 of Yagosip's house, if he wants to go into my  40 territory above Kisgegas he is welcome to it", and  41 that's, you know, that would -- and then the reason  42 why he will have to say that in the feast hall,  43 because he will have witnesses to listen.  44 Q   Yes.  So can I say in summary that these houses of  45 which you're a member or in which you're related are  46 all very close?  47 A   They're very close, way back, and then when the house 9794  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 is full, a chief, without really hindering the other  2 members of the house, get his family out and establish  3 a new house, and the same way all down through the  4 ages, you see.  5 Q   Yes?  6 A   It's the same thing as if you're under your parent's  7 house and when you get married, you see, you see to it  8 you go out and build your own house as well as you  9 can, so this is the same procedure to explain it in a  10 simple way, and this is what happened in the past,  11 because when the house is full, you see, one chief  12 says they have a meeting and says "To make more room  13 I'm going to move out", but they help each other build  14 the house.  15 THE COURT:  When do you think a house is full, how do you know?  16 A  Well, you see, like you only get one house, and then  17 in the long house in the old days, and like if you're  18 the head chief, your honour, excuse the terminology,  19 you sit like a head chief and you're the head chief.  20 Well, let's assume that you are Wii Kaax, if it's not  21 out of my --  22 THE COURT:  No, no, no, go ahead?  23 A  And then the next chief sits on your right and the  24 next chief sits on your left, and then this -- this  25 left side seems to grow a lot faster than the other  26 side, so and then, you know, and there's hardly any  27 room on the left side of the house, so they will have  28 to get together and talk it over and says "Well, you  29 see we're getting crowded here, so let's -- I would  30 like to take my family out and start a new house", and  31 then Wii Kaax would say -- he would say -- he said  32 "That sounds good, but we're going to help you build  33 that", so that doesn't mean you slash yourself -- that  34 the man that sits -- was sitting beside you, that  35 doesn't mean I slash myself away from you, I'm still  36 your relative.  If that explains, your honour, that's  37 the way it works.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  39 Q   And all these houses we spoke about are, as you say,  40 wolf clan, Lax Gibuu?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And really they were all together at one time, as  43 you're saying?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And they all used the same territory, correct?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And it's difficult now to tell the differences because 9795  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 they're all so closely related?  2 A  Well, if you're within the house it's not difficult,  3 they understand their own laws.  4 Q   Well, many members of Yagosip are also members of  5 Guuhadak, aren't they?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Yes?  8 A   You know, if you go right back.  9 Q   That's the same today?  10 A   The same today, the same with any clan, any tribe,  11 like frog or fireweed, they done the same thing.  12 Q   And that's the important thing, is that it's the tribe  13 or the clan?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Yes.  When you started the lawsuit in October 1984 you  16 were named as a plaintiff; do you recall that, you  17 were one of the plaintiff's, Spookw?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Yagosip was not named at that time, was she?  20 A   Not that I know of.  21 Q   No?  22 A   I don't remember.  23 Q   No.  And Guuhadak was not included then either, was  24 he?  25 A  Well, I can't say, and I can't say he is because I  2 6 have no knowledge of it.  2 7 Q   You don't know?  2 8 A   I don't remember.  29 Q   And do you know whether -- can you confirm also that  30 Victor Mowatt, Woosimlaxha, wasn't included at that  31 time either?  32 A   No, I don't.  33 Q   No.  All you can remember is that you were included,  34 correct?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And that Yagosip was not mentioned, correct?  37 A   Not mentioned until the latter days because I don't  38 know how, but I was asked to be -- to represent there  39 and I was hesitant for a while, and then I finally  40 agreed that I would because they claim the knowledge  41 that I have for the territory.  42 Q   You were knowledgeable about her territory, weren't  43  44  45 Q   You're a member of the house as well, aren't youl  46  47  you?  A  Yes.  Q  You're  A  Yes.  Q  And  — 9796  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  And —  2 Q   Excuse me.  3 A  And I walked the territory too.  4 Q   Yes.  Yagosip's territory?  5 A   Yagosip's.  6 Q   Yes.  And Guuhadak also -- I think we've already been  7 through this.  Now, later on, as you say, in the later  8 days in September 1986 Yagosip was added and you were  9 representing Yagosip, correct?  10 A  Well, I was asked to represent --  11 Q   Yes?  12 A   I agreed, yes, with little time to think about it and  13 I asked "Why can't you do it yourself".  He said "No,  14 because you walk the territory and you talked about  15 the territory, so you're the only one that can talk".  16 Q   So you were speaking about -- you were speaking for  17 the members of Spookw and the members of Yagosip?  18 A   Yes, that's correct.  19 Q   And you were a member of both houses yourself?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And Thomas Wright, Guuhadak, was also added in  22 September 10, 1986.  Were you aware of that?  23 A   No, not -- I don't -- you know, I'm not aware of it.  24 Q   Did they discuss it with you?  25 A   But at a later date I do.  26 Q   Yeah.  Did they discuss adding Thomas Wright as  27 Guuhadak with you?  28 A   No.  Not that I know of, not -- you know, I wouldn't  29 say that I didn't know, but, you know, I don't  30 remember whether anybody discussed it to me.  31 Q   Yeah.  Well, if Guuhadak and Yagosip have the same  32 members, really, you don't have separate houses, do  33 you?  34 A  Well, actually Yagosip come down lately, that's the  35 reason why she had a separate house from Guuhadak, but  36 the genealogy ties them together.  37 Q   Yeah.  It's the same genealogy, correct?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Yes.  Can you tell his lordship why Yagosip wasn't  40 added until later days?  41 A   I don't think I can tell that because I don't know  42 why, because I wasn't asked and I wasn't told, but I  4 3 don't know why.  44 Q   Were you representing Yagosip earlier than when she  45 was added as a named plaintiff?  46 A  Well, I can't remember when I was asked to represent  47 her. 9797  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Before that were you representing her in the court  2 case?  3 A   Not that I remember.  4 Q   Just finally on the genealogy, you've said that you're  5 a member of the House of Spookw, correct?  You're a  6 member of the House of Spookw?  7 A   Through the genealogy?  8 Q   No.  The question's now that you're a member of the  9 House of Spookw?  I'm sorry, I'm not speaking about  10 genealogy, I was just referring generally to the  11 question area, so I ask you the question you said that  12 you're a member of the House of Spookw?  13 A   Through holding the name, yes.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And —  15 THE COURT:  Well, I'm sorry, you told me a while ago that you  16 were not taking care of the name Spookw?  17 A   Yes.  You see, because I am Spookw, because I  18 represent, you see.  The question he's asking is --  19 rephrase that again so I can --  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt his  21 lordship.  22 THE COURT:  Well, I have a note that you asked him about other  23 names including his youthful Guuhadak's name, but then  24 you made a suggestion that he was taking care of the  25 name Spookw and he said no, he was not taking care of  26 the name Spookw.  Now I just thought he said that he  2 7 was.  28 MR. GRANT:  I think it's the phraseology, the terminology of  29 taking care of.  30 THE COURT:  I'm sure it is.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   When you say you're holding the name Spookw, you mean  33 you're taking care of the name Spookw?  34 A   Not taking care, I am Spookw.  35 Q   Yes.  And you have recently adopted your grandchildren  36 into the House of Spookw?  37 A   No.  38 Q   And do you have any other relatives, blood relations  39 in the House of Spookw?  40 A   Not that I know of.  41 Q   So if someone were to say you adopt your grandchildren  42 into the House of Spookw, that would be incorrect?  43 A   That would be incorrect, because all the grandchildren  44 of my grandchildren, they're Lax Gibuu, they're  45 adopted into Yagosip's house and they carry the  46 Yagosip name, house name.  47 Q   So the true answer is that your grandchildren have 979?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  been adopted into Yagosip?  A   Yes.  Q   Yes.  And so if someone were to say that you're a  member of a house because your mother was a member of  the house, that's incorrect in your case?  A  Which house?  Q   The House of Spookw?  A  My mother was a member of Guuhadak's house.  Q   So your mother was never in Spookw, was she?  A   No.  MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  THE COURT:  Take the morning adjournment, Mr. Mackenzie?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (MORNING ADJOURNMENT TAKEN AT 11:20)  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:40)  Order in court.  Mackenzie.  THE REGISTRAR:  THE COURT:  Mr.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Now, Mr. Robinson, you've said you're a member of the  House of Spookw and you hold the chief's name Spookw,  correct?  A Correct.  Q   You said that you're a member of the House of Yagosip  and you hold the chief's name Mediigemgyet in the  House of Yagosip, correct?  A   Correct.  Q   And you said that currently you hold the name  Guuhadak, taking care of it, and you're a member of  Guuhadak, correct?  A   Yes.  Q   And you've also said that your genealogy and your  house membership is also that of Wii Kaax?  A   Pronounce that name again, please?  Q   Neil B. Sterritt, Sr.'s house?  A   Pronounce the indian name?  Q   You're much better at it than I, Mr.  know whom I mean, so if you can tell  what I asked you, please?  A  According to what you say, Wii Kaax, that's not the  correct pronunciation, it's Wii Kaax.  Q   Yes.  And you're a member of that house?  A   Through the genealogy, yes.  Q   Yes.  Now, you have been involved in the land claims  research since the early 1970's, haven't you?  Robinson, you  us, just confirm 9799  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   You are one of the most knowledgeable people in the  3 area about the territories of Gitksan, aren't you?  4 A  What area are you really referring to?  5 Q   I'm referring to all the Gitksan territories?  6 A   No.  Not all the territories, but the territories that  7 I have put on my affidavit I'm well versed on it.  8 Q   And you have participated in interviews between Neil  9 Sterritt and several of the Gitksan chiefs, haven't  10 you?  11 A   I don't know what you mean "participated".  I sit in  12 with the interviews and at times some of these  13 interviews are, you know, they don't understand what  14 is said, so I have to more or less interpret a little  15 to the elders to ask questions, and that's the only  16 involvement I have, to assist Neil and to assist  17 whoever he interviews.  18 Q   And you met with Arthur Samson and Neil Sterritt when  19 they were discussing the territories of Niist?  20 A   Yes.  I was more or less, I would say, a spectator.  21 Q   You were participating in that conversation, weren't  22 you?  23 A   I wouldn't say I was participating, I would say that  24 if Arthur doesn't really understand what Neil is  25 saying that I would explain to him, and if -- and  2 6 sometimes when you interview someone and the way our  27 language is spoken, and the difference between the  28 white language, the English language, and it's pretty  29 hard to grasp at times, so I will have to go from  30 there and then explain in little details, and then  31 this interview person would know what is required of  32 him.  33 Q   And that interview was in November 1984; do you recall  34 that?  35 A   I know that I was there, but I don't recall the exact  36 date.  37 Q   And you participated in an interview between Neil  38 Sterritt and Arthur Brown relating to territories at  39 the head of the Skeena?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And you participated in that conversation by giving  42 your views and your knowledge of the territories as  43 well?  44 A   No.  45 Q   And you also during -- and that was also in 1984?  46 A  With the same person?  47 Q   Yes? 9800  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  A  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  macke:  28  A  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  macke:  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  I don't know too much about the head of the Skeena or  the north of way up there, because it's more or less a  learning process with me also, and that's the best way  I can explain it.  And Martha Brown held the chief's name Kliiyemlaxha,  right?  Kliiyemlaxha, yeah.  Yeah.  And you also went with Neil Sterritt to Iskut?  Yes.  To interview people on the Stikine nation?  Yes.  And you were there at the interview with Alec Dennis?  Yes.  And you had another -- you interviewed someone else up  there too, didn't you?  There's a few people that was interviewed there.  Yes.  And they spoke about the Tahltan territories,  didn't they?  Mostly about the Gitksan territories.  This is what  he's trying to straighten out, and the overlaps in  that particular area, and how they migrated and where  they're from originally.  :  How who migrated?  Some of these people from Iskut.  :  Um-hum.  JZIE:  It's the same thing as what happened to Guuhadak and  Yagosip, your honour.  :  Thank you.  JZIE:  So you recall at that interview that they were  speaking about the area up around Chipmunk Creek up in  the north of the Sustat?  Not really.  I wasn't -- you know, it's -- they're  just trying to define the boundaries of that area.  That's right.  And they said -- but Alec Dennis said  that it was the Stikine people that named the lakes,  rivers and creeks up there in that area?  Actually I don't remember that because maybe he said  it, I don't remember.  And you also met with Thomas Jack and William Jack in  Burns Lake with Neil Sterritt in 1988 of this year?  Yes.  And you also attended an interview in Burns Lake with  Paul Jack in May 1988?  Paul Jack? 9801  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Yes.  In Burns Lake?  2 A   In Burns Lake?  3 Q   Yes?  4 A   I don't remember -- I don't remember going to Burns  5 Lake to interview Paul Jack.  6 Q   And you were -- were you at Moose Valley, the meeting  7 in September 1986?  8 A   No.  9 Q   Were you at the Burns Lake All Clans Feast in April  10 1987?  11 A   Yes.  For about two hours.  12 Q   And at that feast -- or at Burns Lake at that time the  13 Gitksan were discussing the overlap up around Thutade  14 Lake and Bear Lake?  15 A   I believe so, because it was just about over when I  16 got there, and I only stayed there for a couple of  17 hours and then I came home, and that was in the last  18 day.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  And you heard the people from Takla Lake speak  20 about their territories at Bear Lake and Thutade Lake  21 aren't --  22 MR. GRANT:  Is my friend referring to this Burns Lake All Clans  23 Feast?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q   Yes?  26 A  Well, they were summarizing, and it's mostly the  27 Gitksan were speaking when I was there, but when  28 that's over that's it.  29 Q   That's right.  So you're aware that the Takla Lake  30 people are claiming those territories up there, aren't  31 you?  32 A   I don't know whether they're claiming, but according  33 to what I hear about a person that was speaking is  34 that I don't know how they come around about that  35 they -- you know, that he stressed that around Bear  36 Lake is owned by Gitksan people, but that's the only  37 part I hear.  38 Q   Yes.  And you were also at the feast with the Nisga'a  39 people at Kitwanga in May 1983?  40 A   Yes.  For just about a half a day.  41 Q   Yes?  And the Nisga'a people were speaking about -- or  42 at least the Gitksan at Kitwancool people were  43 speaking about their territories along the  44 northwestern boundary of the claims land, correct?  45 A  Well, mostly -- most people in Kitwancool that I hear  46 were speaking about the boundaries, and some of the  47 people from Kitwanga were also speaking about 9802  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 boundaries.  2 Q   And you were -- you went to Canyon City to the feast  3 with the Nisga'a in October of 1984?  4 A   No.  5 Q   You weren't at that meeting?  6 A   No, I wasn't.  7 Q   You remember a meeting with Neil Sterritt and James  8 Morrison and David Gunanoot in June 1983 relating to  9 the northeastern boundaries of the land claim area?  10 A   David Gunanoot and James Morrison?  I'm sorry, I don't  11 recollect.  12 Q   You don't remember whether you were at that meeting?  13 A   I don't remember.  14 Q   No, okay.  Do you recall any meeting with those people  15 to discuss the northeastern boundaries of the land  16 claim?  17 A  Anything to do up with north I'm not necessarily  18 involved in because, you know, I have got just a  19 limited knowledge and I don't want to jeopardize the  20 other people's knowledge on it because I don't know  21 too much about Djil Djile.  22 Q   And do you recall -- do you recall a meeting with  23 those people at which you discussed the Driftwood  24 Range?  25 A   I don't think I have -- I have discussed that with  26 anybody because I don't know anything about Djil  27 Djile.  28 Q   The trip to Iskut was in October of 1986?  29 A   Yes.  I know we made a trip to Iskut, but I can't  30 recall the year, '86, maybe it's true.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  And in 1975 you were one of the people who  32 signed a resolution urging the tribal council to make  33 land claims their first priority, weren't you?  34 MR. GRANT:  Sorry.  What was the date of that?  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  36 Q   1975?  37 A  What kind of resolutions are you referring to?  38 Q   Resolutions signed by the Gitksan chiefs?  39 A   Is that the territory resolutions?  40 Q   Yes.  In which you told the tribal council to make  41 land claims a priority based on the registered  42 traplines of the Gitksan people?  43 A   Registered traplines?  44 MR. GRANT:  I don't recall saying anything about registered  45 trapline, we referred to a territory, hunting  46 territory.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  You recall signing that resolution, 9803  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 though, don't you?  2 MR. GRANT:  Well, I think that my friend should let the witness  3 see the resolution he's talking about, it's 13 years  4 ago.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   This was a resolution presented to the special general  7 assembly of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs by the  8 hereditary Gitksan chiefs of the Kispiox and Skeena  9 Valleys.  Do you recall signing that resolution?  10 A   Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs?  No.  I don't recall  11 that.  12 Q   Do you recall signing that resolution on April 3,  13 1975?  14 A   Let me see that, please.  15 Q   Can you tell me whether you recall signing it?  16 A   I don't recall signing it, because I don't remember  17 it.  18 Q   And do you recall that several other chiefs signed  19 that resolution also?  20 A   I just told you, I don't remember signing it, I don't  21 remember I would recall any of the other chiefs would  22 sign it.  23 Q   You don't remember anything at all about that  24 resolution?  25 A   There's a lot of things that I don't attend and  26 there's a lot of things I do attend, and I don't know  27 which resolutions until I see.  28 Q   This document is Exhibit 116 in the trial.  Now,  29 you've read over that resolution, have you, Mr.  30 Robinson?  31 A   Yes.  I can see my name on it.  32 Q   You can see both your names on it, can't you?  33 A   Um-hum.  But I didn't see where I signed it, it  34 says -- it's just printed.  35 Q   Do you deny signing it?  36 A   Looks like this one is printed through the typewriter.  37 Q   Do you deny signing the original resolution?  38 A   I didn't see my signature on it, if that's what you're  39 asking.  40 Q   You were present at the meeting that approved that  41 resolution?  42 A   Yes.  I was present then.  43 Q   And you did approve it, didn't you?  44 A   If my name is on there, yes.  45 Q   And you were a director of the tribal council for some  46 time, weren't you?  47 A   Yes. 9804  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Yes.  You were also the chief councillor for some  2 years at the Gitanmaax Band Council, weren't you?  3 A  What band?  4 Q   I'm talking about the Gitanmaax Band Council, Mr.  5 Robinson?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And you were also a member of that council, weren't  8 you?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   It was about 1975, or shortly after 1975, that Neil  11 Sterritt began to research for the land claims, wasn't  12 it?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And you started giving information to Neil Sterritt  15 about that time, didn't you?  16 A   Yes.  I worked for them.  17 Q   You worked for the research organization group?  18 A   No, no.  19 Q   You worked for the land claims office?  20 A   No.  I didn't work for the land claims office.  I was  21 more or less what you would call -- it is just more or  22 less advisor.  I don't draw no pay, if that's what you  23 mean, work.  24 Q   Not at all, no.  25 A   I do on voluntary basis.  26 Q   You were a very important advisor because of your  27 great knowledge of the territories; is that fair to  28 say?  29 A  Well, I wouldn't say that.  I wouldn't even put myself  30 into that category.  If other people say so, maybe I  31 am.  32 Q   Yes.  Some people have said you're the most  33 knowledgeable person about the territories, certainly  34 of the House of Spookw.  Would you agree with that?  35 A  Within the area of close to Gitanmaax.  36 Q   Yes.  And you met with Neil Sterritt and you gave him  37 information starting in 1976, didn't you?  38 A  Which Neil Sterritt are you referring to, sir?  39 Q   Neil John Sterritt?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   The son, yes.  And you met with him almost every year,  42 several times a year, to discuss the territory, didn't  43 you?  44 A  Well, mostly.  Not several times a year, mostly  45 sometimes just about every day.  46 Q   Yes?  47 A   Just to, you know, so I can learn too.  I wanted to 9805  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 learn more about the territory, and we listened to  2 other people that is more knowledgeable than I with  3 other territories, so I'm in the learning process too.  4 Q   Yes.  You were all learning about the territory,  5 weren't you?  6 A  We all tried to learn about the whole territory.  7 Q   Yes, that's right.  And by that time, by 1975 the  8 people to whom you speak about in your affidavit had  9 passed away, hadn't they?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Your mother had passed away?  12 A  My mother had passed away.  13 Q   Your father, Bob Robinson, had passed away?  14 A   You see, there's -- if I remember correctly, sir, that  15 there's one white man called Bob Robinson too, but my  16 father is Walter Bob Robinson.  17 Q   Yes, that's correct, Walter Bob Robinson, I'm sorry?  18 A  Axgoodim ts'i tsa'wit, Bob Robinson.  19 Q   Your father had passed away in 1954, hadn't he?  20 A   That is correct.  21 Q   And your mother had passed away in 1962?  22 A   I believe that's in December.  23 Q   Yes.  And Mary Johnson, and Mary Johnson died in 1969?  24 A   I believe that's the year.  25 Q   And she had held the name Yagosip?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And Frank Clarke, as you've already testified, had  28 passed away in December 1941, or about 1941?  29 A   Yeah.  About 1941, but I don't remember the month.  30 Q   Those are the names of the informants that are listed  31 in paragraph 4 of your affidavit on page 2.  You said  32 that you were learning, you were all learning about  33 the territories.  People had -- and you were  34 participating and you were present at the interviews  35 with the chiefs.  It's true, is it not, that some  36 chiefs had different opinions about the ownership of  37 certain territories?  38 A   Some had different opinions, but because they are in  39 learning process too, sometimes I have a different  40 opinion and this is the reason why we're still  41 learning, and then we have to do a little research,  42 and then as a person that walks the area, he knows the  43 area a lot better than the guy that just made one  44 trip, so this is what is going on between the native  45 people.  46 Q   And you're still learning to this day, aren't you?  47 A   I am still learning.  I don't think I'll ever stop 9806  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 learning until I pass away.  2 Q   And as you learn more over this -- these years from  3 1975 you were able to define or determine the  4 boundaries with more precision, is that correct?  5 A  Well, within our own boundaries, and the neighbouring  6 boundaries.  7 Q   And you would get more information and then you would  8 change opinions that you held prior to the new  9 information, wouldn't you?  10 A   No.  Not with the boundaries that I am familiar with,  11 because I walk the boundaries with my father and I  12 walked the boundaries with the holder of the land.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Very well.  Let's speak about you.  I was  14 referring to the other chiefs, but let's speak about  15 you.  Your views as to the ownership of the places in  16 the territories changed over the years, didn't they?  17 MR. GRANT:  Well, maybe my friend can be a bit more precise.  Is  18 he talking about the territories the witness has  19 referred to in his affidavit, he's being very very  20 general, or is he talking about the northern area that  21 the witness has described differently?  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'll ask the general question first.  Your  23 personal views of ownership of the territories changed  24 over the years, didn't it?  25 MR. GRANT:  Well, my objection remains, my lord.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Is that an objection, my lord?  27 MR. GRANT:  Yeah.  I objected already, and I said it was a  28 general question.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yeah.  30 MR. GRANT:  And my friend asks this witness -- this witness has  31 explained that.  32 THE COURT:  I have your objection, Mr. Grant.  What is the  33 problem, Mr. Mackenzie, in identifying clearly for the  34 witness what it is you're asking him to comment on  35 with regard to changing his views?  Is it generally or  36 is it with respect to a particular property?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, that's my first question was a general  38 one, and I had proposed to move into more specific  39 areas.  40 THE COURT:  Well, I think the general question may produce a  41 different answer from a specific one, or there may be  42 variations or shades of difference.  It seems to me  43 that for the purpose of assisting the witness I should  44 give effect to your friend's objection.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Generally speaking about the Gitksan territories  46 your views as to the ownership of places in the  47 territories changed over the years, didn't it? 9807  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT:  My friend has not taken account of your ruling, my  2 lord.  3 THE COURT:  I don't think you have, have you, Mr. Mackenzie?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I'm not going to press, except to  5 say -- I'm not going to press it, except to say that I  6 understand your lordship's ruling to be that I was  7 distinguishing between my general questions and my  8 specific questions.  9 THE COURT:  I didn't make myself clear.  I said I would give  10 effect to the objection, which was the general  11 question was one that the witness might have  12 difficulty with.  I think you should confine yourself  13 not necessarily to a specific territory, but at least  14 to a region.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q   Thank you, my lord.  With respect to the territories  17 described in your affidavit, Mr. Robinson, your views  18 about ownership of different places in those  19 territories changed over the years, didn't it?  20 A   Not that I know of.  21 Q   Your views as to the ownership of creeks and lakes in  22 the territories and your affidavit changed between  23 1976 and the date of your affidavit, didn't they?  24 A   Not that I know of.  25 Q   You're quite sure about that?  26 A   I'm quite sure about it.  27 Q   And you gave information to Neil Sterritt in 1976 and  28 1978 and '79 that was inconsistent and different from  29 your information in your affidavit that's before us  30 now, didn't you?  31 A   On what area are you talking about?  32 Q   You don't -- I'm talking about the areas in your  33 affidavit, to start off with?  34 A   That means Woosimlaxha, Yagosip and Spookw, Nika Te'en  35 Yagosip, Wii'goob'l.  36 Q   Yes?  37 A   There's no changes in there that I know of.  38 Q   Thank you.  And you disagreed with other chiefs on  39 ownership of other territories, for example, in the  40 Kispiox area?  41 A   I don't think it's my place to disagree with any one  42 territory because I'm not involved in that area  43 because I make no claims to anything within the  44 Kispiox except just to represent Yagosip in that  45 territory.  4 6 Q   And you disagreed with the claims of Gwoimt of the  47 lands north of Shewililba Creek on the Skeena River? 9808  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  Who —  2 Q   The chief's name is Gwoimt.  3 A   Gwoimt?  I don't remember disagreeing, but I know who  4 actually that area belonged to, but I didn't state  5 because I don't know why, but I don't remember  6 disagreeing openly.  7 Q   But you disagreed, didn't you?  8 A  Well, if you know for a fact that through the registry  9 of the Fish and Wildlife, which they don't understand  10 the ownership of the hereditary chiefs, I disagree  11 with the Fish and Wildlife registry.  12 Q   You also disagree with the claims that are being  13 advanced now to the Gwoimt territory to Kisgegas,  14 don't you?  15 A   Gwoimt?  I don't recall anybody in Gwoimt's house talk  16 about any specific area of Gwoimt's territory.  17 Q   You knew that Gwoimt had only a small fishing station  18 on the Skeena River, correct?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And you knew that it was only one mile square, didn't  21 you?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And now Gwoimt is claiming the whole area from  24 Shewililba north of Kisgegas.  You disagree with that,  25 don't you?  26 A  Maybe I would disagree with it, but there's nothing I  27 can do about it.  28 Q   That's correct.  You disagree with it because you know  29 that your mother and father went up there, don't you?  30 A  My mother and father?  What do you mean?  31 Q   I mean your mother and father used to go up to that  32 area?  33 A   Up -- what particular area are you talking about?  34 Q   The area north of Shewililba Creek on the way to  35 Kisgegas?  36 A   Remember that area is a big big area, it's not just a  37 little small area.  38 Q   That's right.  39 A   But people would go into certain areas.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's right.  And you —  41 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I don't think the witness is  42 finished.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q   All right.  Finish your answer, sorry?  45 A   You see, we went up to Siiwil, and the place that we  46 go is K'am yipet.  That's a berry patch.  47 Q   And what is the name of Gwoimt's fishing station, 9809  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 fishing spot?  2 A   Tsuwinhl Geets.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Can we — my lord, may I interrupt to get  4 spellings for those two names.  5 THE COURT:  Yes, please.  6 THE TRANSLATOR:  Tsuwinhl Geets, T-S-U-W-I-N-H-L space  7 G-E-E-T-S.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  And what was the other name, please, the berry  9 patch?  10 THE TRANSLATOR:  K'am yipet, K'-A-A-M space Y-I-P-E-T.  11 THE COURT:  That's the place that you went to for berries, is  12 it?  13 A   I was real small then when -- there when my parents  14 travelled up there to pick berries.  15 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  16 A  And, your honour, at that time, to my understanding,  17 and is very vaguely that my father said it belonged to  18 Kisgegas, the berry picking area.  19 THE COURT:  The first name that was spelled is the one square  20 mile fishing station belonging to Gwoimt, is it?  21 A   Belonged to Gwoimt, yes.  22 THE COURT:  Yes?  And it's one square mile?  23 A   That claiming because I don't know whether it's one  24 square mile, because I don't believe the old people in  25 the olden days would know what the square mile is?  2 6 THE COURT:  No.  But about a square mile?  27 A   But it's just approximately.  2 8 THE COURT:  I understand, thank you.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  And that was — sorry, my lord.  Does your  30 lordship have another question?  31 THE COURT:  No, thank you.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q   That was Austin Laddie's (?) place; is that the correct  34 name?  35 A  What?  36 Q   What is the name of the person who held that fishing  37 station, the English name?  38 A   I don't know who that Gwoimt now, but I think it was  39 Kathleen Wale or one of her sons,I don't know.  40 Q   Who held the fishing station -- who owned the fishing  41 station, when you --  42 A   I can't really recollect.  43 Q   The first name was Austin?  44 A   Yes.  He was -- he was -- he was the heir of that.  45 Q   What was his last name?  4 6 A  Matthews.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  And Neil Sterritt told you that — told you 9810  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Henry Wright said that was Gwoimt territory, correct?  2 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Mackenzie, I'm sorry, I don't know  3 what you mean what the fishing station was.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   The area -- I'm sorry, my lord, the area north of  6 Shewililba Creek, the Kisgegas was Gwoimt territory,  7 according to Henry Wright?  8 A   I don't remember Henry said that, because I don't  9 think Gwoimt went with me to interview Henry.  I went  10 to see Henry when he was up at Kisgegas Village and I  11 was up hunting.  That was the only time I seen him,  12 but N.J. Sterritt wasn't there.  13 Q   But Neil John Sterritt told you that Henry Wright's  14 opinion was that area from Shewililba to Kisgegas was  15 Gwoimt's, correct?  16 A   Shewililba to Kisgegas, I don't recall that, sir.  17 Q   No.  But you disagreed with that, didn't you, you  18 disagreed strongly with that opinion?  19 A  Well, I wouldn't say I disagreed strongly, because I  20 don't know how he obtained it.  21 Q   But you've said that it wasn't true, didn't you?  22 A   It wasn't true, I don't think it's right.  23 Q   That's correct, that's what I'm trying to say.  The  24 only point I'm trying to make is that your view  25 differed from that of Henry Wright.  Can you agree  26 with me on that with respect to that territory from  27 Shewililba north of Kisgegas?  2 8 A   I don't know what your view of Henry is, but in my own  2 9 view I understand my own view and my own opinion.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Let's see if we can go back.  You agree that  31 Neil Sterritt advised you Henry Wright's opinion was  32 that territory was Gwoimt.  33 MR. GRANT:  No.  He didn't agree with that, he didn't recall  34 that.  My friend is now rephrasing his evidence.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  36 Q   Do you agree with that?  37 A   I would -- I don't remember.  38 Q   Fine, that's all we wanted to know.  But if that -- if  39 that was Henry Wright's opinion, you disagree with it?  40 A   I don't disagree, and if Neil -- if you -- I remember  41 what you say, Neil advised me that's the words you --  42 Q   Yes?  43 A   How did Neil advise me, if he was just telling me what  44 Henry Wright said.  45 Q   You remember Neil telling you what Henry Wright said,  4 6 don't you?  47 A   I told you, I don't recall. 9811  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  THE  COURT  2  3  MR.  macke:  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT  :  I think it would be better if you just said "Neil  said".  JZIE:  You remember that Neil said that that was Gwoimt,  don't you?  Yes.  Well, he said it was Niist's, but I say that is  wrong.  So you disagreed with that, didn't you?  Well, what wrong means.  Yes.  So my point is that different chiefs had  different views as to ownership of the territory, and  the views about the territory evolved as the learning  process went on through the years, didn't it?  You see, if we all agree with what one says without  further research, you see there's different opinions  of other chiefs, so that's why the research is there,  so to define who is the owner and who is not the  owner, and this is why the research is there.  You  see, it's just the same thing as a jury when they go  and deliberate, some of them disagree and some of them  agree with the verdict, and they have to come to a  certain conclusion and agree.  Someone had to make a decision to decide who was right  and who was wrong, didn't they?  Well, I will tell you, there's always be somebody that  would sit in and listen to both sides of the story and  then, just like your honour here, he's sitting here,  he's doing the same work as any other chiefs.  I'm just putting it to you that the chiefs disagreed  and someone, and that someone was Neil Sterritt, had  to decide who was right and who was wrong.  Now, can  you agree with that or not?  You have to collect all the data of all the people who  are knowledgeable about that area, and then -- and  then he have to re-evaluate it again over and over  again, but I don't know what his conclusions are.  Yeah.  In this case he decided that that territory was  Gwoimt, didn't he?  I don't know, I don't know his --  :  Well, my friend is misleading, I would suggest, my  lord, because of course it's sworn evidence before the  court which hasn't been put to this witness by someone  other than Mr. Sterritt as to whose territory that is.  :  Well, Mr. Mackenzie is entitled to put it to the  witness and see if he will agree with it, this is  cross-examination.  :  Well, yes.  I'm just saying -- 9812  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie isn't bound by the other evidence in  2 the form in which he puts his question.  3 MR. GRANT:  No.  But I mean I'm objecting on the basis, my lord,  4 that he's suggesting that it was Mr. Sterritt who said  5 that.  6 THE COURT:  Well, that's exactly what he's suggesting to the  7 witness.  8 MR. GRANT:  And in fact, of course there is other sworn  9 evidence.  10 THE COURT:  That may be, Mr. Grant, but in cross-examination  11 counsel isn't confined to give credibility to all the  12 evidence or any evidence in asking a relevant  13 question.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I'm going to play an excerpt from a  15 tape now, and I have a cassette player here which I'm  16 going to -- Miss Sigurdson is going to help me with.  17 I hope that will be audible to your lordship and I'm  18 handing up the transcript of this.  19 THE COURT:  Thank you.  20 MR. GRANT:  Is there a transcript for the witness as well?  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q   No, there isn't.  You met with Neil John Sterritt and  23 Martha Brown on November 30, 1984, didn't you?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Yeah.  And as you say, at that time you discussed for  26 the most part territories at the head of the Skeena,  27 didn't you?  28 A   There they were discussing that, yes.  29 Q   And then at the end of the conversation you discussed  30 the Gwoimt territories north of Shewililba Creek,  31 didn't you?  32 A   I was asking -- I remember correctly, I was asking if  33 Woosimlaxha knew anything about it, and I don't recall  34 what her answer would be.  35 Q   And you referred -- you said it was crazy that Gwoimt  36 was claiming that territory, didn't you?  37 A  Well, anybody that is claiming someone else's  38 territory I figured that, you know, if it's not a  39 true -- truth in it, there should -- they should more  40 or less really investigate who's the owner of the  41 territory.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's correct.  Just listen to the tape  43 and —  44 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie, it seems to me the witness would be  45 better if he had a transcript.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  We don't have a transcript, it's his voice and  47 he was there. 9813  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT:  He may not be able to hear.  2 THE COURT:  It would be much better if he had a transcript.  3 I've read it.  4 (TAPE PLAYED)  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   And that's your voice we're hearing on that tape, is  7 it not, Mr. Robinson?  8 A   Yes, that's my voice.  Would you go on a little  9 further and see what Martha Brown would say about that  10 too.  11 Q   And that's Neil John Sterritt's voice that we're  12 hearing?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And Martha Brown was there, correct?  15 A   Yes.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yeah.  Just carry on with that, please.  17  18 (TAPE PLAYED)  19  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I submit that the tape and the  21 transcript, there are two tapes actually, and this is  22 tape 2 of 2 on side A, as the next exhibit.  23 THE COURT:  You mean that part we've heard is from two different  24 tapes?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  It's from the second tape, first side.  2 6 THE COURT:  I see.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  And the two tapes of the interview that were  28 produced by the --  29 THE COURT:  Are you putting it all in, the whole tape?  Has Mr.  30 Grant heard the rest of the tape?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  They're Mr. Grant's tapes, my lord.  32 MR. GRANT:  That doesn't necessarily mean I've heard them.  33 There's hundreds of tapes I have or have not heard,  34 and haven't seen the transcript.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, perhaps I can resolve this.  Mr.  36 Robinson, you followed that conversation on the  37 transcript, can you agree that that transcript is an  38 accurate reproduction, apart from the Gitksan terms,  39 of the conversation you just heard?  40 MR. GRANT:  Well, it isn't, my lord.  I heard that it wasn't.  41 Aside from the -- it says Austin Laddie, on the tape  42 it said Austin Matthews.  Of course, what's even more  43 problematic about this transcription is all of the  44 important place names which the witnesses are talking  45 about are described in the transcript as quote  46 brackets.  47 THE COURT:  All right.  If it's the plaintiff's tape then I 9814  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 suppose there's no reason why Mr. Mackenzie can't put  2 it in.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Perhaps —  4 MR. GRANT:  If he puts in the entire tape I will have an  5 opportunity to listen to it before redirect.  6 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Tape and transcript, number -- do  7 you know what exhibit number we're up to?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  804, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  This will be 804?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  The transcript will be 804.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  So there are two tapes of that interview, and  13 this is the second tape on the first side.  14 THE COURT:  The transcript will be 804 and the tape will be  15 804-A and B.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  So tape 1 would be 804-A, my  17 lord, and tape 2 would be 804-B.  18 THE COURT:  Right.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  And this transcript is first side of 804-B.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yep.  21 MR. GRANT:  And I would ask that the transcript be corrected at  22 least with that English word with Austin Laddie to be  23 Matthews.  24 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  25  26 EXHIBIT 804 - Transcript of tape recordings  27  28 EXHIBIT 804-A - Tape 1 of 2 recordings  29  30 EXHIBIT 804-B - Tape 2 of 2 recordings  31  32 THE COURT:  All right.  Should we adjourn for lunch?  Two  33 o'clock.  34 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  35  36 (LUNCHEON RECESS TAKEN AT 12:25)  37 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00)  38  39 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Witness, I remind you, you are  40 still under oath.  41 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I just want — Mr. Adams is with a witness  42 upstairs now, that's why he's not with us.  43 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  Mr. Mackenzie.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  45 THE COURT:  Whenever you say, Mr. Mackenzie.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   Thank you, my lord.  Mr. Robinson, we were speaking 9815  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 this morning about the land claims research over the  2 years, and I suggested to you that -- that you  3 disagreed with some of the other chiefs as to  4 ownership of the territories, and I take it that  5 that's a true statement?  6 A   Disagreement and debating is two different things, I  7 understand, because when one territory is brought up  8 and what you have heard, you have to bring it up and  9 put it -- well, when you say -- what you say when  10 we're talking to Martha Brown, she's way older than I  11 am, and I said this is crazy, I admit what I said  12 there, you see, but I wanted to know more about this  13 land, because I was a young boy when we went up there  14 and it was told to me by my parents.  The reason why  15 they were up there, it's through my father's father,  16 that's Giskaast, and this is the reason why, you know,  17 what I said what I was saying, so it's just -- that's  18 just the way I know at the time, because when things  19 like that are brought up and then I remembered what I  20 was told, and this is the reason why I said what I  21 have to say, but at about Tsuwinhl Geets, there's a  22 lot of people talking about Tsuwinhl Geets, and that's  23 what I brought to light again.  24 Q   You also disagreed with another aspect with the land  25 claims in this case.  In fact, you believed that the  26 Gitksan boundary with the Wet'suwet'en people was at  27 Boulder Creek, didn't you?  28 A  Well, that's according to what I hear, it's Boulder  29 Creek, and that's as I mentioned there.  30 Q   And that's a creek that flows into the Bulkley River,  31 isn't it?  32 A   Yeah.  Well, it's Bulkley, Boulder Creek east.  33 Q   Yes.  And that's -- and that would be the southern  34 boundary of the Gitksan people along the Bulkley  35 River, correct?  36 A   This is what I heard, yeah.  37 Q   And what you heard was that that's where Sam Jones'  38 trapline went to?  39 A   Yes.  You know, I knew Sam Jones when he was still  40 alive, and I know he used to go up east of here at Mud  41 Creek and cuts over that way, that's my knowledge of  42 it, but when I heard that their boundaries were around  43 Mud Creek, but the people that involved in that who  44 owns that, it's their business to talk about it, but  4 5 not me.  46 Q   Yes, I understand.  And now the boundary that's being  47 claimed is north of that Boulder Creek at a creek 9816  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  called Porphyry Creek; are you aware of that?  A   North of it?  Q   Yes?  A   Yeah, I understand.  Q   Can you confirm to his lordship that you told Neil  Sterritt your views about the boundary going down to  Boulder creek?  A   I don't remember I mentioned that to Neil, because I  went over that way one time just looking at goats and  then there's nothing there, so I mentioned it to Neil,  but I don't know whether Sam Jones' line is there or  either Boulder Creek, this is what I'm telling you.  I  don't know who said that was Boulder Creek, and  somebody said that, but, you know, I maybe passed it  onto Neil.  Q   Yes.  Do you recall passing it onto Neil?  A   I believe I mentioned it to Neil, because we, you  know, we wanted to be specific on these matters.  Q   Yes?  A  And it's not up to me to reject somebody's ownership  or me to give it to somebody else.  It's the owners  themselves, and they know their own boundaries, but  what I heard just from other people who were trying,  we were trying to sort it out.  MACKENZIE:  Let me see if I can find the reference to that.  Does your -- has your lordship found the boundary  there?  COURT:  No, not yet, but I'm looking for it.  Porphyry  Creek, as I recall, is in the --  MACKENZIE:  My lord, it's shown —  A   In the territory of Gidemgyet(?) and Wah tah keg'ht.  MACKENZIE:  Q   That's correct, my lord, it's the northern boundary?  A   North of Moricetown.  MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's correct, my lord.  It's the northern  boundary of the Wet'suwet'en and southern boundary of  the Gitksan.  COURT:  Yeah, right.  And where's Boulder Creek?  MACKENZIE:  Boulder Creek is just to the south of that.  GRANT:  It would be the next creek along.  If you went along  the highway, my lord, you come to Porphyry Creek, and  then if you headed towards Moricetown the next creek  you would come to would be --  COURT:  How far apart, are they?  MACKENZIE:  Well, I —  COURT:  Oh, just generally.  MACKENZIE:  About a couple of miles apart.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  MR.  26  27  28  THE  29  30  MR.  31  32  MR.  33  34  35  MR.  36  37  38  THE  39  MR.  40  MR.  41  42  43  44  THE  45  MR.  46  THE  47  MR. 9817  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT:  I agree, they would be roughly on the highway a  2 couple of miles.  3 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  I think I have —  5 THE COURT:  Don't worry about it, Mr. Mackenzie, I'm in the  6 ballpark.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   I've just handed to you, Mr. Robinson, and to his  9 lordship an excerpt from Neil Sterritt's field notes  10 dated May 24, 1981.  And page 123 in those field  11 notes, this is a recollection of a conversation  12 between Steve Robinson and Neil Sterritt on May 11,  13 1981 while driving to Moricetown, and then Mr.  14 Sterritt writes:  15  16 "Steve said Gitenmaax boundary at Boulder Creek and  17 Sam Jones owned and trapped this territory on the  18 east side of the Bulkley.  Gidumguldo (Lax Seel)  19 own the land but it was originally was wolf  20 under Spookw."  21  22 Now, do you recall advising Mr. Sterritt of that  23 information?  24 A   I remember we came back from Smithers and we talked  25 about Boulder Creek and we talked about the boundary  26 of Yagosip's while we were coming over the Boulder  27 Creek, and on this side on top of the hill around  28 Bowman where the station used to be, and I think this  29 is where there's an error on that, because I told him  30 "I show you where the boundary of the wolf is", and I  31 pointed across, "You can see clearly from just on top  32 of the hill of Porphyry Creek across.  That's the  33 boundary across where Yagosip's boundary is".  And  34 that's all I remember what I've said.  I never said  35 anything about Porphyry Creek.  I don't know why he  36 wrote that down, eh.  37 THE COURT:  No, he —  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  He wrote Boulder Creek down.  39 THE COURT:  He didn't write anything about Porphyry Creek?  40 A  Well, he suggested what I say, you see.  But it  41 originally was wolf under Spookw, you see.  That's  42 what is written there.  43 THE COURT:  That's correct, is it?  44 A   No.  That's Lax Seel.  45 THE COURT:  All right.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   So there are two items in that? 9818  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  THE COURT  37  A  38  39  40  41  MR. macke:  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  Yes.  There's an error there.  You say there's an error where it is written this was  formerly wolf territory, you say that's an error?  From Xsi wii yax yak, this way, that's wolf territory,  but Xsi wii yax yak, that's Lax Seel.  Well, let's speak about -- you're talking about Mud  Creek, aren't you?  Mud Creek.  Let's -- that's one part of what was written.  The  other part that was written was Sam Jones' trapline  went down to Boulder Creek, and that's the southern  boundary of the Gitksan people, and that's what you  told Neil Sterritt, isn't it?  Well, that's what it says here, and I believe I said  that to Neil coming back from Smithers.  Thank you.  Well then, let me ask you -- but he was  wrong when he wrote down wolf territory?  Yes.  If he's meaning Porphyry, that's what you  mentioned to me before when you asked me that  question, is Porphyry Creek, well that's wrong.  Yes, okay.  Well, you know where Mosquito Flats is,  don't you?  Yes.  Across the river, Bulkley.  Which side of the Bulkley?  East side of the Bulkley.  Yes.  So that was the area, that was wolf territory?  No.  Now, I've asked you this question earlier this  morning, now I'm going to ask you it again just to  confirm your answer.  Spookw used to own the territory  at Mosquito Flats on the east side of the Bulkley  River?  Spookw -- Frank talked with Spookw, the reason he can  go across, he's married to Axdii ts'ex, that's my  understanding.  :  What did you say, he went across there?  He went across to Axdii tse'ex territory because he  was married to Axdii tse'ex, that's Spookw, Frank  Clarke, to pick berries.  That's a berry flat  crossing, belongs to Axdii tse'ex.  JZIE:  I'm now going to suggest to you that in September 1986  you told Neil Sterritt that Spookw owned Mosquito  Flats.  Is that an error?  You know, the reason why I said that I believe because  the late Sam Hoak said -- "You know what", he said,  "The east side of the Bulkley River belongs to 9819  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Spookw".  And I questioned him, and this is what I  2 mentioned to Neil.  I didn't say that he owned that,  3 because I know better, because there's an old site  4 across there that belongs to Axdii ts'ex.  5 THE COURT:  Are these excerpts already exhibits, Mr. Mackenzie?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord, they're from Mr. Sterritt's notes.  7 I think for ease of reference, if your lordship would  8 permit, I ask that those -- they be marked as exhibits  9 at this time.  The first one that we just discussed  10 since Mr. Sterritt's —  11 MR. GRANT:  The only problem I have with this, my lord, is  12 that -- of course, is that I have to look at -- that  13 these are excerpts of conversations, and the  14 conversation may or may not go on to the next page and  15 the next page may have reference to the same topics.  16 In other words, before they're marked as exhibits I  17 would like to have an opportunity to look at that.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, that's —  19 THE COURT:  I thought they were already marked, were they not?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Some of Mr. Sterritt's notes have been marked,  21 my lord, but I can't tell whether these particular  22 ones have been marked.  Would it be of assistance to  23 mark them for identification, or alternatively to  24 leave Mr. Grant's concerns to re-examination?  I'm  25 instructed that the conversation or the entry is  26 reproduced in full in these, but I don't have any  27 problem with Mr. Grant looking at the rest of the  28 notes.  29 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Well, I think because I would like  30 to have them in -- marked in the sequence of evidence,  31 I would like to mark them now, but it can be for  32 identification until Mr. Grant has had a chance to  33 look at them.  34 MR. GRANT:  And I may ask if there's more to incorporate them as  35 part of the same exhibit.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  This one about Boulder Creek then will  37 be the next exhibit.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's the May 24, 1981 note, my lord.  3 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  40 MR. GRANT:  So that would only be the section on the bottom of  41 the right-hand column, I take it?  42 THE COURT:  And what exhibit number will that be, Madam  43 Registrar?  44 THE REGISTRAR:  805.  45 THE COURT:  Thank you.  805 for identification.  46  47 9820  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 EXHIBIT 805 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Note by Neil  2 Sterritt dated May 24, 1981  3  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   Now, we're just looking at this second note from Mr.  6 Sterritt dated September 28, 1986, and Mr. Sterritt  7 says his informant was Steve Robinson, Spookw, and Mr.  8 Sterritt writes in the first paragraph:  9  10 "Axtiidjeek married Spookw's sister.  They went to  11 Mosquito Flat, which was owned by Spookw at that  12 time.  They went up Babine Trail, turned off at 11  13 mile and crossed Suskwa River.  Spookw wanted to  14 see what was going on, as it was his land."  15  16 Did you say that to Mr. Sterritt?  17 A  Well, there's a long story before that, because you  18 see, this is a -- this is what I told -- this is the  19 story that I collect from other people, and this is  20 the reason -- this is the reason why you can see in  21 the latter part there the reason why Spookw went east,  22 because Spookw is married to Axdii ts'ex -- Spookw's  23 sister.  I don't know what her Indian maiden name is  24 or Indian name, but she was married, and there they  25 were going to Mosquito Flat, is what you call across  26 the Bulkley, and their ways through Eleven Mile, like  27 Nine Mile Creek and across the Bear River.  That's the  28 only way you can go across a long time ago, and at  29 Eleven Mile they stopped, I believe this is the story  30 I heard, and when they're across, before they get  31 across they -- Chief Spookw himself, he wanted to go  32 and visit his sister and his brother-in-law, so he  33 went and then he found at Eleven Mile there was  34 something going on there that he didn't like, so  35 instead of going he just left and came back, packed up  36 his children and went back east, and I assume when  37 they were doing that that maybe that's where I -- it's  38 my error, I think, on that, is I assumed that he --  39 that's his land, that's why he was building --  40 building it, but later on I found out it's Axdii ts'ex  41 land at that time.  That's where research pays off.  42 Q   That's right.  And so you told -- you told this to  43 Neil Sterritt in September of 1986?  44 A   Yes.  Just believing that what I heard, that's his  45 land.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I submit that as an exhibit for  47 identification, the note September 28th, 1986. 9821  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  On the same basis, for identification, 806.  2  3 EXHIBIT 806 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Note by Neil  4 Sterritt dated September 28, 1986  5  6 THE COUT:  Tell me, what is this word, I don't think I've seen  7 it before?  It was Axtiidjeek, and it's his sister or  8 S-I —  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q   I think that would be sister?  11 A   Sister.  12 THE COURT:  And they were practising what, Haldowgwit?  13 A   Yeah, haldowgwit.  14 THE COURT:  What does that mean?  15 A   Practising -- can't even describe the Indian way.  It  16 would be some kind of witchcraft.  17 THE COURT:  I see, all right, thank you.  18 A   Your honour, I don't know whether that's true or  19 whether it's a made-up story, but because I wasn't  20 there to verify what it is.  21 THE COURT:  I understand, this is all information that you had  22 picked up from a number of sources, is it, just from a  23 number of sources or just from one person?  24 A  Well, there was a number of people who talked about  25 it, and I just mentioned it and I told Neil not to  26 write down most of my conversation with him because,  27 you know, it's just the hearsay and somebody might  28 take it serious and make a big issue out of it.  29 THE COURT:  Where is the Babine Trail?  30 A   It's started from Two Mile and goes up the other side  31 of Bulkley River.  32 THE COURT:  Two Mile is where, please?  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q   That would be just a little bit east, about two miles  35 east of Hazelton?  36 A   Yes,  37 THE COURT:  Yes all right.  38 A   Excuse me, your honour.  The trail starts off there  39 and it went and crosses the Xsi'an luu guu'asxw,  40 that's Four Mile, and then it crosses Hlgo sas goo,  41 and then it went over and crosses Wii suu gwii hlabit.  42 THE COURT:  Just a minute.  It's got to cross the Bulkley?  43 A   No, sir, that's on the north side of the Bulkley.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q   The north and east side of the Bulkley?  46 A   Yes.  The north side of the Bulkley and all the way --  47 and then when the Bulkley turns, you know, coming from 9822  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 the more or less south up here.  2 Q   Yes?  3 A   You see, and then it -- then the Babine Trail is on --  4 still on the north side of Suskwa River.  5 Q   It goes along the Suskwa over to Lake Babine?  6 A   No.  It goes right up and right over the summit and  7 right down into that.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:  And just for ease of reference, the references the  10 witness has given are in paragraph 14 of his  11 affidavit, and it's those creeks there that I think  12 Nine Mile Creek, Fifteen Mile Creek, one locally known  13 as Twelve Mile Creek, Six Mile Creek and Four Mile  14 Creek.  15 THE COURT:  Well, at some point doesn't it have to cross the  16 Bulkley?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  18 MR. GRANT:  No.  It doesn't have to cross the Bulkley, because  19 it's when you -- Two Mile, the point of commencement  20 is if you were driving from New Hazelton to Old  21 Hazelton.  22 THE COURT:  It's half-way?  23 MR. GRANT:  It's half — you cross the Hagwilget you get to Two  24 Mile, and then you would be on the north side of the  25 Bulkley, and the trail the witness is describing would  26 continue alongside the Bulkley River.  27 THE COURT:  I see, all right.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q   You don't cross over the bridge to go onto the Babine  30 trail, do you?  31 A  What bridge?  32 Q   Hagwilget Bridge?  33 A   No, no, unless you go towards Smithers Landing.  34 Q   Yes, all right, okay.  Now, this information that we  35 just spoke about, you got that from your father,  36 Walter Bob Robinson?  37 A   Yes.  This is because -- I don't know why he said  38 this, but it's some kind of amusing story, and I think  39 this is the reason why I remember it in particular.  40 There's a lot of stories that he told me about them,  41 you know.  42 Q   Yeah.  Your dad passed away in 1954?  43 A   1954.  44 Q   And your father is one of the people who talked to you  45 about this Spookw territory, isn't he?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   He also informed you about other territories, didn't 9823  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 he?  2 A   Nikate'en and Woosimlaxha.  3 THE COURT:  Tell me, does the Babine Trail go on the south side  4 of Chapman Lake, south end of Chapman Lake?  5 A   Yeah.  The Babine Trail is not close to Chapman Lake.  6 THE COURT:  It's further south?  7 A   Chapman Lake is way south of the Babine Trail.  8 THE COURT:  I see.  9 A   Yes.  10 THE COURT:  You go north of Chapman Lake then?  11 A   Chapman Lake is there, and then Babine Trail goes up  12 that way.  13 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  I see, thank you.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  Looking at Canada's map you will  15 see -- your lordship will see that the Suskwa River  16 goes right along and there's a trail marked heading  17 over to Fort Babine, which is on Nilkitwa Lake there,  18 it's just to the east, so the trail is quite a bit  19 north of Chapman Lake.  Does your lordship have the  20 Suskwa River flows into the Bulkley just at Bulkley  21 Canyon?  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  And Babine follows along the north banks of that  24 river, my lord, and then it goes over the summit, just  25 as Mr. Robinson said, to Fort Babine, which is  26 outside.  Does your Lordship see that?  27 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q   So at the present time Spookw doesn't claim any  30 territory down there, does he?  31 A   Not on the other side of the river, I mean Bulkley.  32 Q   Yeah.  No territory at Mosquito Flat?  33 A   No.  34 Q   And what I'm suggesting is that the process of  35 learning about the territories was simply -- was  36 simply -- not simply, but really consistent of your  37 speaking to older people and other people to get their  38 impressions about where the boundaries and the various  39 owners of various territories were; is that fair to  40 say?  41 A  Well, I'll tell you, my youth days, and you pick it up  42 from there, because I'm really interested and have a  43 lot of respect for the elders, because if I can sit  44 down with them and listen to their conversation I  45 learn something from it, and then I start inquiring of  46 what I picked up from other people, and then, you  47 know, if I made a wrong statement they straighten me 9824  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 out.  And this is what learning process is all about.  2 I'm interested and I respect elders, and I still do.  3 Q   So when you get new information you change your views?  4 A  Well, you see, like if there's lot of people who say  5 well, this man is wrong, and then I have to say that,  6 you know, I have to go to another man, then I say  7 "What do you think of this, this guy says this is  8 wrong and this guy says he's right", and then I have  9 to sort that all out, but, you know, some of them,  10 what I receive is nice good stories so I can just tell  11 about, eh, so that people would understand a few  12 things about our back past, our history, and this is  13 the reason why I have found out where I come from, and  14 I found out that some other people's background.  15 Q   So as you go along you have to really shake it out and  16 decide which one is the preferable story or version?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Yes.  Now, this morning I asked you whether your views  19 as to the ownership of parts of Spookw's territory  20 changed, and you said no, they haven't, you couldn't  21 remember; is that what you said?  22 A   Yes.  I said that on the basis that I've seen maps  23 changed, but Spookw's territory is still the same.  24 Q   Yes?  25 A   The maps can change, you see, you can draw a map here  26 and then say cut it in half, and then -- but Spookw's  27 territory has its own boundaries from the time that  28 they were here.  You see, this is what I mean, I'm  29 going to explain to you.  30 Q   Yes?  31 A   You see, when the Fish and Wildlife come and control  32 the hunting area they draw a map, and this is -- this  33 is your trapline, and maybe they take somebody else's  34 land and cut across it and interconnect those two  35 lands together, that's what I mean.  Maps can change,  36 but the territory itself stays, and we know.  37 Q   Well, let me suggest to you ways in which your views  38 have changed about Spookw.  Now, at the present time  39 you know that in the Spookw territory there's a lake  40 called Dam Similo'o, correct?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And that's just south-east of Seeley Lake, isn't it?  43 A   No.  44 Q   Where is it?  45 A   It's south-west of Seeley Lake.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just south-west of Seeley Lake?  47 THE COURT:  How do you spell it, please? 4 THE COURT  5 MR. GRANT  6 THE COURT  9825  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Dam Similo'o, D-A-M S-I-M-I-L-O-0 is the Gitksan  2 spelling.  It's not named on the government map, my  3 lord.  Okay, that's fine.  That's two words.  Yes.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   Well, it's quite close to Seeley Lake, isn't it?  9 A   It's behind Seeley Lake closer to the foot of the  10 mountain of Stekyoodenhl, and then there's the Staix  11 Kiayet.  It's more or less foot of Staix Kiayet.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, in your affidavit on page 3, paragraph 7  13 under "Lakes", that's one of the lakes that's  14 mentioned as being in Spookw's territory?  Does your  15 lordship see that under "Lakes" under 3?  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q   And it's an unnamed lake on government map.  Well, Mr.  19 Robinson --  20 A  What, page 7 do you say?  21 THE COURT:  No, paragraph 7.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q   I beg your pardon.  In 1979 you told Neil Sterritt  24 that that lake was owned by Gyetm Galdoo?  25 A  Well, I don't know where I got that information from,  26 but because I assume when Wii'goob'l owned that Dam  27 Stikyoodin, and you know, I can make a mistake, and  28 then I found out that Dam Similo'o belongs to Spookw.  29 Q   So you made a mistake in 1979?  30 A   I believe I did, because I know that at that time that  31 I was researching and then I found out this.  In one  32 paragraph I said myself that I don't own any land, and  33 that's -- the reason why I said that is because all  34 the farmers occupy all that Spookw's land.  35 Q   Yes.  I will ask you about that.  That phrase, "Spookw  36 has no land" --  37 A   Um-hum.  38 Q   Appears in Neil Sterritt's notes?  39 A   Yeah.  Because the reason why I say that, you know, if  40 everybody take all your land, and then although I know  41 where there's land there, but how can I use it; how  42 can the members use it when it's occupied by farmers.  43 Q   Sorry.  So when you said "Spookw has no land" in  44 December 1981 you meant that the farmers had taken it  45 all?  46 A   Yes.  And then -- I'll go back again.  I went into the  47 Fish and Wildlife one time because I wanted to take 9826  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 beaver out of Dam Stikyoodin, because I know it  2 belongs to Spookw, and he told me, he says "You can't  3 do it".  So —  4 Q   Let me ask you about that again later, but excuse me,  5 I just want to deal with this question of Dam  6 Similo'o.  Now, I've handed to you one of Mr.  7 Sterritt's topographic survey data sheets, and he says  8 that he got information from you on May 28th, 1979  9 that Dam Similo'o was owned by Gyetm galdoo, Lax Seel,  10 and I take it that that was a mistake and you changed  11 your mind after that date?  12 A   Yes.  That's a mistake, that's a mistake that I made,  13 not Neil.  14 MR. GRANT:  It also says on that note that it's — that the  15 location is lot 2384, surrounds south-east Seeley Lake  16 plus or minus two and a half miles.  17 THE COURT:  In other words, it's about Lake — it's about Dam  18 Similo'o.  19 MR. GRANT:  Well, the reason I rise is the witness was asked if  20 Dam Similo'o is south-east and he said no, it's  21 south-west, I'm not sure if my friend intends to put  22 in the document?  23 THE COURT:  Is there any other lake plus or minus two and  24 whatever miles from Seeley Lake?  25 MR. GRANT:  I believe there are a series of small lakes, yes, on  26 both sides.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q   I would suggest looking at the map shows that my  29 friend is incorrect, and I can provide a map, if  30 that's necessary?  31 A   You see, there's another lake is south-east of Seeley  32 Lake that belongs to Lax Seel, it belongs to Nika  33 Te'en.  34 Q   You say Nika Te'en has a lake south of Seeley Lake?  35 A   Yes.  36 MR. GRANT:  He said south-east.  37 A   South-east.  It's more or less of an easterly part of  38 Seeley Lake.  Seeley Lake is like here, Dam Similo'o  39 is right here, and that lake of Nika Te'en is here and  40 Vocal Point Pond(?) is close to.  And that's Lax Seel  41 pond too.  42 Q   Yes.  So your evidence now is that Nika Te'en has  43 territories south of Seeley Lake, is that correct?  44 A   South of Seeley Lake?  45 Q   Yes?  46 A   South of Seeley Lake -- south of Seeley Lake is  47 Stikyoodin. 9827  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q   What are you saying?  Are you saying Nika Te'en --  A   Owns a lake.  You see, now what's the name of that  lake?  It's got a name here, it slipped my mind.  MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I would submit this — while Mr.  Robinson is looking for that lake, I submit this  topographic survey note as the next exhibit for  identification, if Mr. Grant wishes to.  THE COURT:  All right.  Subject to the same conditions as  previously, this will be 807 for identification, but ]  think I should say, Mr. Grant, if I don't hear from  you further about this before the end of the trial I  will take these maps for identification to be  converted into exhibits.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  In particular, I'm hoping I will be able to  advise you by the time this witness has concluded his  evidence, because I may deal with it in one regard,  but I appreciate you allowing me to have more time to  review it.  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  EXHIBIT 807 FOR IDENTIFICATION  Sterritt dated May 28, 1979  Note by Neil  A  Q  A  Q  A  MACKENZIE:  Q   Mr. Robinson, you recall telling Neil Sterritt that  Dam Similo'o was owned by Gyetm Galdoo?  No.  You don't recall that?  But the way it was said here, it's south-east.  Yes.  You recall telling Mr. Sterritt that Dam  Similo'o was owned by Gyetm Galdoo?  I don't really recall.  Maybe I did, maybe he showed  me a map and then, you know, I don't know, but I know  there's another error on the map.  Instead of Nika  Te'en put on there, I see Gyetm Galdoo.  MACKENZIE:  My lord, I'm thinking about handing to your  lordship a larger scale map of this territory, and  this --  COURT:  How do you smell Nika Te'en, please?  TRANSLATOR:  N-I-K-A-T-E-'-E-N.  COURT:  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Handing up to your lordship topographic map  showing Seeley Lake and the surrounding area in a  scale of 1 to 50,000, because we're going to be  referring to this in a little bit more detail.  Thank you.  I presume my friend is providing that as an aid  the court, he's not tendering that as an exhibit?  COURT:  GRANT:  to 9828  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  MACKENZIE:  Yes, as an aid to the court for now.  My lord,  your lordship will see that this is a map entitled  "Skeena Crossing", and up there and just south of  South Hazelton we see Seeley Lake Provincial Park?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  And if you go down south of that, my lord, in  lot 2384 you will see a fairly large lake.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  You see that, my lord?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Well, I'm suggesting that that's the reference  in Mr. Sterritt's note which is now Exhibit 807.  COURT:  Is that Dam Similo'o?  MACKENZIE:  I want to ask Mr. Robinson.  COURT:  All right.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Now, referring to this map and the lake in lot 2384,  Mr. Robinson, is that the lake you know as Dam  Similo'o?  A   Yeah, that's Dam Similo'o.  MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have that reference?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Now, Mr. Robinson, the lake that you were referring to  as north-east of Nika Te'en Lake is north-east of  Seeley Lake on lot 778, isn't it?  A   This one here, yes.  MACKENZIE:  Just down from -- north of Hazelton -- does your  lordship see that?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Q   And that lake is known as Dam gan gynxs, isn't it?  A   Yes.  Q   That's Nika Te'en territory?  A   That's Nikate'en territory.  MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have that?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Q   So when did you find out that Dam Similo'o was not  Gyetm Galdoo?  A   I couldn't even remember that, because I know the  territories belong to Spookw, but I guess I was shown  a map of some kind, I don't know, and then I was  surprised, and then, you know, I just automatically  say something, but when we're up Lax an daahlw with  tse yetswit we look down, because I do a lot of  travelling up there because that's where we pick a lot  1  MR.  2  3  4  5  THE  6  MR.  7  8  THE  9  MR.  10  THE  11  MR.  12  13  THE  14  MR.  15  THE  16  MR.  17  18  19  20  21  MR.  22  THE  23  MR.  24  25  26  27  28  MR.  29  30  THE  31  MR.  32  33  34  35  36  MR.  37  THE  38  MR.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 9829  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 of berries.  2 Q   And that was up on the mountains?  3 A   Up on the mountains.  4 Q   Above Dam Similo'o?  5 A   Yes.  And we look down on Dam Similo'o.  6 Q   And that was up near the old trapline?  7 A   The trapline is further west of it?  8 Q   Yes?  9 A  And I mean the tram tower, that's the head of Dam  10 Similo'o.  11 Q   You used to look down on Dam Similo'o and you thought  12 it was Gyetm Galdoo?  13 A   No.  I never thought, because we're on Spookw's  14 territory, and see, my -- that's what we counted, and  15 I was young then with my mother.  16 Q   Yes.  When did you -- when did you discover that Dam  17 Similo'o was not owned by Gyetm Galdoo?  18 A   I don't know, I don't remember, because all I know is  19 all that territory was Spookw, because he's got  20 berries down there and he's got the lake there.  21 Q   Well —  22 A  And I think there's an error here some place on  23 account of that because it says on this one here it's  24 more or less south-east.  25 Q   Yes?  26 A   You see.  27 Q   Yes.  But you told Neil Sterritt that Dam Similo'o was  28 owned by Gyetm Galdoo in 1979, and I just want to know  29 when you realized it was owned by Spookw?  30 A  Maybe at that time, after that maybe.  31 Q   Yes, okay.  And you referred to Lax an daahlw?  32 A   Lax an daahlw.  33 Q   You know that because you used to pick berries there?  34 A   I picked berries there with my mother and a lot of us,  35 and that's Lax an daahlw tse yetswit, they call it.  36 Q   Yes.  You say that's Spookw's territory now?  37 A   That's Spookw's territory.  38 Q   Well, in 1979 you told Mr. Sterritt that that was  39 Gyetm Galdoo also, didn't you?  No?  4 0 A   No.  41 Q   You don't —  42 A   I don't know where that comes from, but because  43 maybe -- maybe he figured I said it, but I don't  44 submit I say it, because why should I say it, because,  45 you know, I don't understand.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  All right.  Well, Mr. Sterritt's note,  47 topographic note here says that he got information 9830  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  from  by Gy  MR. GRANT:  Jus  fact  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Thank  told  A   No.  Q   So yo  this  A  Maybe  Q   Yeah,  A   Becau  becau  MR. MACKENZIE:  topog  THE COURT:  Yes  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  you on May 28, 1979 that Lax an daahlw was owned  etm Galdoo.  Now, is that correct?  t a moment.  Is the information correct or the  that he got it from Mr. Robinson correct?  you very much.  I mean is it correct that you  him that?  I don't recall.  u say that Neil Sterritt was wrong when he wrote  note?  he's -- maybe he made a mistake.  okay,  se I told you before it belongs to Spookw,  se we went up there and picked berries.  Yes.  Now, my lord, I would submit the  raphical data sheet as the next exhibit.  , 808 for identification.  EXHIBIT  sheet  308 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Topographical data  sk you about,  in Spookw's  r affidavit,  your  MACKENZIE:  Q   Now, there's one other item I wanted to a  and that is Lost Lake, and you say that's  territory now, don't you?  A   Yes.  MACKENZIE:  And Lost Lake is referred to in you  page 3, paragraph 7, it's number 4.  Does  lordship have that reference?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Q   And I'm going to -- now, Lost Lake is over near Mud  Creek, isn't it?  A   Um-hum.  Q   Now, Mud Creek is also known as Mud Flat Creek, isn't  it?  A   Yes.  MACKENZIE:  COURT:  No,  MACKENZIE:  THE  MR.  Does your Lordship see Mud Flat Cre  not yet.  It's over on the right-hand side of  on the top, and it's flowing down from a  Highway 16 just south-east of Hagwilget P  a lake there, it's the only lake in that  lord.  I'm talking about the Mud Flat Cre  see it coming down here, my lord?  COURT:  I see it's flowing to the east.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  You see that, my lord?  ek?  the map up  lake north of  eak.  There's  area, my  ek Lake.  You 9831  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  While we're looking at that, my lord, you see  3 Porphyry Creek down to the south, and Boulder Creek?  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  And that shows the relationship of these creeks  6 and territories.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  And up — I'm now going to direct your lordship  9 and Mr. Robinson down Mud Flat Creek and up the side  10 of the map to a lake that's partially shown and into  11 which Bunker Creek flows.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  And just does his lordship see that just north  14 of Mud Flat Creek?  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  17 Q   Now, that's Lost Lake, isn't it, Mr. Robinson?  18 A   That's Lost Lake.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  So that's Lost Lake we're just referring to?  I  20 think, my lord, maybe we should mark these, but on the  21 maps, but I'm just going to --  22 THE COURT:  Well, they've been well identified.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  24 THE COURT:  We will have no trouble finding them.  25 MR. GRANT:  And the witness did point to that lake, the one from  26 Bunker Creek, as Lost Lake, my lord.  He did point  27 that out.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  29 A  And the name of that lake is Dam O'osit -- no, I mean  30 not Dam O'osit, Dax Sook.  31 THE COURT:  Yes?  32 A   Dax Sook.  33 MR. GRANT:  It's referred to in paragraph 7.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   And what -- do you know it by a name other than Dax  36 Sook?  37 A  Well, that's the name of -- I know is Lost Lake.  38 Q   Yes.  Well, let me say, in 1979 you told Mr. Sterritt  39 that that belonged to Yagosip, didn't you?  40 A   Yes.  Dax Sook belongs to Yagosip.  41 Q   And the lake belongs to Yagosip?  42 A   Yes.  It's supposed to belong to Yagosip.  43 Q   But now you say it belongs to Spookw?  44 A   I'm talking on behalf of Spookw and Yagosip.  Excuse  45 me, your honour, I will explain the reason why that --  46 that this existed under Spookw.  At the time of the  47 Edward Clarke and Frank Clarke there's a woman by the 9832  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  name of Cecilia George originally from Fraser, came  down to Hagwilget to get married, and she -- every  time that either Spookw's house or Yagosip's house or  Guuhadak's house put up a feast she came down and  support these people all the time.  She never missed a  feast, and Yagosip so happy of this woman's doing,  assisting them in the time that they're having a  feast, so they put a name on her, and they put Noxs  anlo'o, the name is Noxs anlo'o, and then the head  chief of that after they put the name for your  assistance in our feast is never failing in return  that we are going to let you use the land Dax Sook.  That land originally belonged to Spookw, and then when  you pass away it will revert back, but it didn't, so  in my affidavit I say well, because I believe this  person is Spookw's -- one of the Spookw's people, and  that's why I got up and say "Well, okay, we defend  that", because I had a lot of respect for what she's  done.  I've never seen it, but I was told what she has  done in the feast hall, and I really appreciate it  what she did, so I went in there.  I don't know  whether she turned that back to the original owners or  maybe they still got it, but I'm here to defend that.  Q   Yes?  A   Forever who owns the place.  COURT:  Should we take the afternoon adjournment?  Before we  do that, how are we doing in time, Mr. Mackenzie?  MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, as Mr. Grant advised your  lordship, we estimated one and half days for Mr.  Robinson, and my estimate is that I'll be finished  early tomorrow before the morning break.  COURT:  So we're on schedule.  MACKENZIE:  Yes, as far as in-court examinations, and I  discussed this with Miss Koenigsberg, and -- but I  haven't discussed it with my friend, but I think we're  on schedule.  And in view of the people that are  coming up tomorrow I think that we will be able to  finish those people tomorrow.  Because if we're on a tight schedule I don't mind  sitting later this afternoon or evening this evening  if it's necessary to stay on schedule, but I'll leave  that to counsel to decide whether we should or not.  Yes.  Two things before we go.  One, I just want it  put on the record the witness had not referred to this  topographic sheet before he described what he just  described to you.  He wasn't looking at it.  THE COURT:  Yes.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE COURT  MR. GRANT 9833  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT:  And the other point is that I appreciate your  2 comment, because I understand the witness scheduled  3 for tomorrow afternoon in court there's been a death  4 in Burns Lake and he's required back there, so we have  5 him freed up for tomorrow afternoon, but there would  6 be some major problems if there's a slippage.  I  7 advised my friend of that, I think they're already  8 aware of it.  9 THE COURT:  I'm here and available, and I would be glad to be  10 guided on what counsel view in that regard.  11 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  12  13 (AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN AT 3:10)  14 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:25)  15  16 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  17 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  18 MR. GRANT:  My lord, just before my friend commences again and  19 before I forget, I would be requesting an order for  20 the release of the tapes that my friend tendered.  I  21 don't have the tapes, I would like to review them this  22 evening.  I think they've now been marked as exhibits.  23 THE COURT:  Any problem with that, Mr. Mackenzie?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  25 THE COURT:  Miss Koenigsberg?  26 MISS KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, certainly.  27 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  2 8 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  30 THE COURT:  This topographic survey note of Mr. Sterritt's was  31 not marked before we adjourned?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I submit that as the next  33 exhibit.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's relating to Lost Lake.  35 THE COURT:  809 for identification.  36  37 EXHIBIT 809 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Topographic survey  38 map relating to Lost Lake  39  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q   You were explaining to us about Cecilia George and so  42 I didn't ask you about this Exhibit 809, Mr. Robinson.  43 Let me ask you something about Cecilia George.  She  44 was Thomas George's mother, wasn't she?  45 A   That's Phil George's wife, I believe it was.  Thomas  46 George is the son, and I believe Sylvester George, I  47 can't remember the other descendants. 9834  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   So she was originally in the House of Gisdaywa?  2 A   I believe so.  3 Q   She was a Wet'suwet'en person?  4 A   Um-hum.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And then she had a trapline up there,  6 didn't she?  7 MR. GRANT:  Where?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   In the Spookw territory?  10 A  What do you mean by a trapline?  11 Q   Well, you say that she was given permission to trap  12 beaver at Lost Lake, wasn't she?  13 A  Well, she was given permission to use.  14 Q   Yes.  So she had a registered trapline there too,  15 didn't she?  16 A   I don't know whether it was registered.  It's -- I was  17 not apprised if it was registered.  18 THE COURT:  I didn't get an answer, or I'm not sure I have the  19 right note.  Was she Thomas George's daughter?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q   Mother, my lord.  22 A  Mother, I'm sorry.  She was Thomas George's mother.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thomas George was Gisdaywa.  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  That Cecilia George trapline is marked as an  26 exhibit in this trial, Exhibit 94-D for  27 identification.  2 8 THE COURT:  D.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  D, Delta, yes.  It was put in during the  30 examination -- cross-examination of Alfred Joseph.  31 MR. GRANT:  D was that?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q   Yes.  So and then so you were aware -- were you aware  34 that Cecilia George and members of her family  35 continued to trap in the Spookw territory over the  36 years, Mr. Robinson?  37 A   Yagosip's territory?  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  In Spookw's territory?  39 THE COURT:  It states on there "Yagosip".  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mr. Robinson is referring to Exhibit 809.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   So you say Lost Lake is in Yagosip's territory?  44 A   Yes.  That's what it says here.  45 Q   You're referring to Exhibit 809.  In your affidavit  46 you say it's in Spookw's territory?  47 A  Well — 9835  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   So which is right?  2 A   Because if it's -- if it's Yagosip, Spookw -- and you  3 know, she's from Gisdaywa's house and she's given in  4 the feast hall permission to use that by Yagosip.  5 Q   Whose territory is Lost Lake in?  6 A   Originally it's Yagosip's.  That's it there, the very  7 people who give her permission.  8 Q   But now it's Spookw's, is that correct?  9 A  Well, I wouldn't say it's Spookw, but I'm going to  10 defend it.  11 Q   Yes.  12 A   Because that's Indian territory.  13 Q   So you wouldn't say it's Spookw?  14 A   Not -- because I am little bit different from -- well,  15 my name is Spookw, Right.  16 Q   Correct?  17 A  And the person that we are referring to is Noxs  18 anlo'o, that's from Yagosip's house, and her son is  19 Gisdaywa.  20 Q   That's right.  But Lost Lake, where is that?  Is that  21 in Spookw's territory?  22 A   It says Yagosip's territory because she's the one who  23 turns it over to her to use.  24 Q   So your affidavit is incorrect when it says it's in  25 Spookw's territory?  26 A  Well, I'm defending the both.  27 Q   I see.  And Spookw's boundary put -- is Mud Flat  28 Creek, isn't it?  29 A   Yes.  That's the way it is, because they're still  30 under there, they're still using the territory.  31 Q   Spookw's boundary goes down Mud Flat Creek to the  32 Bulkley River?  33 A   To the Bulkley River.  That's Xsi wii yax yak that  34 we're talking about.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yeah.  Does your lordship have that reference?  36 We saw Mud Flat Creek on the large scale map, and that  37 would be the south-east -- south-eastern boundary, the  38 southern boundary of Spookw's territory, my lord.  3 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's map 9-A.  Does your lordship have that  41 reference?  42 THE COURT:  Oh, on 9-A?  Yes.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  And your lordship will see Mud Flat Creek on the  44 large-scale map that I handed up to your lordship.  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  But Bulkley River confluence doesn't show on  4 7 that map. 9836  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q   I'm going to have to ask you this question again, Mr.  3 Robinson.  Your affidavit is incorrect when it says  4 Lost Lake is in Spookw's territory?  5 A  Well, you see, like they're working together, right,  6 and I am from Yagosip's house as Mediigemgyet, and  7 then Yagosip in turn let Noxs anlo'o use that because  8 he assists in feast halls and when she dies she's got  9 to revert back, but I see that Sylvester George also  10 have a name in Yagosip's house too, so more or less  11 they belong in two houses, but right now I'm defending  12 it on behalf of Spookw.  13 Q   Fine.  14 A  As Spookw is defending it on behalf of those people,  15 but originally right from the history it's Yagosip.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  You mentioned Wii'goob'l earlier in your  17 evidence.  And Wii'goob'l was Jessie Sterritt  18 recently, wasn't he?  19 A   Yes.  20 THE COURT:  Can I have the spelling for that, please?  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Number 74 in the plaintiff's list.  It's W-I-I  22 G-O-O-B-'-L.  2 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q   Now, you say that Seeley Lake is Yagosip's territory,  26 don't you, and you say that on page 3 paragraph 7, is  27 that correct?  2 8 A   No.  29 MR. GRANT:  Wait a minute.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   Sorry.  Seeley Lake is Spookw's territory?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   I beg your pardon.  You say that Seeley Lake is  34 Spookw's territory?  35 A   Excuse me, I thought we were going to talk about  36 Wii'goob'l here.  37 Q   Yes, we are.  38 A   That's what you're talking about, now you're talking  39 about Seeley Lake.  40 Q   Exactly.  41 A   That's not Wii'goob'1's.  42 Q   That's the point.  Now, if someone were to say that  43 Wii'goob'l owned Seeley Lake, that would be incorrect  44 you're saying, is it?  45 A   It would be incorrect.  46 Q   Yes?  47 A   That's true. 9837  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MACKENZIE:  Now, Jessie Sterritt said that on her  commission, which is an exhibit in these proceedings.  COURT:  Excuse me.  Didn't Olive Ryan say Seeley Lake  belonged to her?  MACKENZIE:  I don't think so, my lord.  GRANT:  No.  She referred to the boundary which was at the  area of the trapline, if you recall, going down to the  Bulkley River, and Seeley Lake was on the other side  of that.  COURT:  All right.  Where is Carnaby?  MACKENZIE:  If you see the new Kitsegukla Indian Reserve 2  on this topo map, just look to the right of it, you  see the word Carnaby.  COURT:  So it's south of Seeley Lake?  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  COURT:  All right.  So she didn't say that Seeley Lake was  hers?  MACKENZIE:  No.  She didn't say that.  COURT:  All right, thank you.  MACKENZIE:  In fact, I think she at least referred to it as  Gitanmaax chiefs.  I'm not sure if she referred to  this chief.  COURT:  All right, thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Q   It's volume 70 -- sorry, Exhibit 770B, volume 2,  Jessie Sterritt's evidence, and that was referred to  in Mrs. Wilson Kenni's evidence as well on  cross-examination.  Jessie Sterritt said that Seeley  Lake was known as Wii'goob'l's lake, and did you hear  that also?  MR.  MR.  A  Q  A  No.  No?  So that would be incorrect if someone said that?  That's right.  GRANT:  Does my friend have a page reference for that?  MACKENZIE:  At page — it's volume 2 of Jessie Sterritt's  commission, page 64 and 65.  Now, my lord, I'm going  to now refer to the interrogatory of Martha Ridsdale  on behalf of Wii'goob'l.  The affidavit was sworn  February 19, 1987.  And at interrogatory 59(c) Mrs.  Ridsdale is asked:  "What are the boundaries of Wii'goob'l's territory?"  And she says:  "Wii'goob'l's House also has rights to fish and trap  in the area now known as Seeley Lake, and then 983?  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 referred to as Wii'goob'l's lake."  2  3 THE COURT:  Is that interrogatory in?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  It hasn't been filed yet, my lord.  I'll file a  5 copy tomorrow morning, my lord.  6 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  I will have a copy for my friend if he wishes to  8 review it later, and referring also to -- I don't  9 think I'll make any further reference to that -- any  10 further interrogatories there.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  Are you going to ask the witness if he  12 accepts or rejects that allegation?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  14 MR. GRANT:  Well, I would ask that it be put to the witness so  15 he can see exactly what is said, because it's not  16 summarized.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q   I'll put that Wii'goob'l part of that Risdale  19 interrogatory, 59(c) to Mr. Robinson right now, and  20 I'm showing him the last paragraph in that  21 interrogatory response.  22 A   "And then referred to as Wii goob'1's lake", um-hum.  23 Q   I have to ask you, Mr. Robinson, do you accept,  24 deny -- do you agree or deny that statement?  25 A   There's a pond there, and that reference doesn't  26 really describe the area.  It said the area of Seeley  27 Lake, and Wii'goob'l fishes at Daxs O'op, there's a  28 pond on more or less.  Seeley Lake is here, and then  29 there's an outlet of Seeley Lake and there's a little  30 pond.  It's just like Babine Lake and Nihlkitla Lake,  31 it's the same thing, and there's a little creek in  32 between.  And I guess that's what she is referring to,  33 and that's Wii'goob'l's, and then it runs down the  34 south-east and it hits Wii'goob'l on the way down, but  35 it only goes so far as Chicago Creek, and it's just  36 that creek and that little pond, I think that is what  37 she's referring to, not the whole lake itself.  But  38 that little pond is in the area of Seeley Lake.  You  39 can't see it now, your honour, because that beaver's  40 damned the whole thing and then flood the whole lake,  41 flood the whole pond.  42 MR. GRANT:  Without referring the witness to this, my lord, I  43 would also refer -- there is a reference that I would  44 refer you to in paragraph 6 of his affidavit.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  I would say that's properly a matter for  46 re-examination, my lord, but --  47 THE COURT:  All right. 9839  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q   And in your affidavit on page 3, paragraph 7 under  3 "Lakes", number 2 you refer to Daxs O'op, the outlet  4 pond to Seeley Lake.  That's what you're referring to,  5 so you deny that Wii'goob'l owns Seeley Lake?  6 A   You see, I don't believe she owned it because that's  7 the only area that I know, and it just referred to  8 that Daxs O'op.  Daxs O'op is Wii'goob'l, and Seeley  9 Lake -- Seeley Lake is Dam Stekyoodenhl.  10 MR. GRANT:  Number 1 on the —  11 THE COURT:  Outlet pond would be at the north-east end of the  12 lake?  13 A   Correct.  14 THE COURT:  Thank you.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q   Now, in your affidavit you also referred to -- that's  17 page 3 paragraph 7, you refer to Station Creek,  18 locally known as Mission Creek?  19 A   Xsi gwin sagiiblax.  20 Q   Yes.  That's the Gitksan name?  21 A   Um-hum.  22 Q   And that is the boundary you say that's on Spookw's  23 boundary, don't you?  24 A   Yes.  It's, you know, Lax Gibuu boundary comes right  2 5 down.  26 Q   That's the boundary between Nika Te'en --  27 A   That's why I'm sitting here, to talk about that.  28 Q   Yeah.  That's the boundary between Nika Te'en --  29 A   Nika Te'en and Spookw or whoever.  30 Q   Nika Te'en is Lax Seel?  31 A   Lax Seel, yes.  32 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt seems to have written that Station  33 Creek is owned by Gyetm Galdoo.  If someone were to  34 say that Station Creek was owned by Gyetm Galdoo, that  35 would be incorrect, would it?  36 A   I think this is the reason why, because Gyetm Galdoo  37 had a fishing site right in the mouth of -- right at  38 the mouth of Station Creek coming out here.  That's  39 Gwin Sagiiblax, and then Gyetm Galdoo fishing hole is  40 just above it.  41 Q   So the creek —  42 A   So I believe -- assume that he owns the creek too.  43 Q   Yeah.  Mr. Sterritt gives his informant in 1979 is  44 Henry Wright?  4 5 A   Um-hum.  46 Q   Would you know anything about that?  47 A   No. 9840  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MACKENZIE:  But you —  GRANT:  I just want to know, my lord, is whether my -- here  my friend put this, I don't know if this was put to  Mr. Sterritt, this particular one.  Mr. Wright is  deceased now and there's no way -- I'm not certain if  he's put -- these particular notes were put to Mr.  Sterritt of the deceased person?  COURT:  Were they, Mr. Mackenzie?  MACKENZIE:  I don't know whether this was put to Mr.  Sterritt, my lord.  All these notes are Mr. Sterritt's  topographical data notes provided to us by the  plaintiffs, and there's an agreement between counsel  that with regard to Mr. Sterritt's field notes,  journals, loose-leaf notes, and survey sheets we can  tender them as exhibits at subsequent  cross-examinations, any notes that appear to be in Mr.  Sterritt's writing without having Mr. Sterritt cite  the items and without obtaining an admission of  authenticity under Rule 31.  I understood the agreement on authenticity and  identification.  I'm not suggesting I haven't seen  this particular note, my friend didn't show it to me  right now, but the notes he's showed me thus far that  they come within that agreement, and this note  presumably does as well, but what I'm just saying is  that I want to know if my friend is questioning on  this as to whether or not Mr. Sterritt was examined as  to what was meant by that note, which again I haven't  seen.  Well, Mr. Mackenzie is saying I think that it was  not the subject of cross-examination of Mr. Sterritt.  MACKENZIE:  I think that's true, my Lord.  We didn't go  through every --  Well, I think, Mr. Mackenzie, you will have no  trouble but for that agreement, and that seems to  cover it.  The authenticity.  It's not a question of authenticity.  He can put it  in and he can cross-examine on it.  MACKENZIE:  I show it to my friend.  I just happen to have  only one copy, but I'll make a copy for my friend, and  I would like --  COURT:  Well, we used to get along in trials very well with  just one copy of everything, did just fine.  MACKENZIE:  It sounds like the halcyon days, my lord.  COURT:  They certainly moved along a lot faster before we  had photocopies.  COURT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT: 9841  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I would like to submit that as an  2 exhibit for identification, and I'll -- it's a note  3 dated April 24, 1979, or at least the information  4 appears to be received April 24, 1979.  I'm going to  5 show Mr. Robinson my copy and then I'll have a --  6 THE COURT:  All right.  That will be 810 for identification.  7  8 EXHIBIT 810 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Note dated April  9 24, 1979  10  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  So I wonder if I could ask my friend for that,  12 and then --  13 MR. GRANT:  Well, the problem I'm having with this is that this  14 note also -- the note my friend appears to be relying  15 on is not the note of Henry Wright, it's the note of  16 Walter Wilson, who's a witness that my friend has  17 cross-examined.  Mr. Sterritt, the author of the note,  18 and that's admitted that he was the author of the  19 note, was examined and presumably not examined on that  20 note, and the agreement covered -- that is, Walter  21 Wilson, the statement that my friend is relying on,  22 the statement of Walter Wilson, is this statement was  23 not put to Walter Wilson, and finally, there's  24 reference to Henry Wright, who is now deceased, so  25 we're in a situation -- I mean my friend can put the  26 statement to the witness, but I reserve the right to  27 consider the admissibility of that exhibit.  28 THE COURT:  All right, go ahead.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Henry Wright is noted as the informant, and then  30 there's some remarks as well about Walter Wilson.  31 Just show that to Mr. Robinson.  32 MR. GRANT:  What number was it?  33 THE COURT:  810.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, Mr. Robinson you're reading that note?  35 MR. GRANT:  Well, maybe he can finish reading it.  36 THE COURT:  Have you read it, Mr. Robinson?  37 A   Yes.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  39 Q   So you would say that note is incorrect as far as  40 Station Creek being Gyetm Galdoo's?  41 A   I would say it's incorrect.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yeah, thank you.  Now, I'm handing up a copy of  43 this area as shown on Exhibit 5.  44 MR. GRANT:  Sorry.  This is on exhibit —  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  5.  46 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 5.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  What I've handed, my lord, I've given Mr. 9842  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Robinson is a -- is an enlargement of Exhibit 5 as an  2 overlay, and the base is a topographical map of the  3 area showing lot numbers, and this is in Exhibit 5, my  4 lord.  Your lordship will recall Exhibit 5 was the  5 exhibit that was produced in May 1987.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  And showing the internal boundaries of  8 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en people.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  10 MR. GRANT:  It's the one that Miss McKenzie identified her  11 territory on, my lord.  I think it's --  12 THE COURT:  I remember it well.  13 MR. GRANT:  It's also map 8 on the overlay series.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 Q   And in that exhibit, Mr. Robinson, right in the middle  16 of the present Spookw territory is a large territory  17 apparently owned by Gyetm Galdoo, so can you tell me  18 how the makers of that map happened to have Gyetm  19 Galdoo right in the middle of your territory?  20 A   I got no idea, because the line of that map that  21 follows up Station Creek or Gwin Sagiiblax, is the  22 boundary of Nika Te'en and he's Lax Seel also.  23 Q   At any rate, right now you don't agree that there's a  24 Gyetm Galdoo territory in there?  25 A   No.  26 Q   But you agree with me as a result of our discussion  27 this afternoon that the one time you identified  28 several features in Spookw's territory as being owned  29 by Gyetm Galdoo?  30 A   Not that I remember.  31 Q   Well, you just -- you told us, didn't you, that Dam  32 Similo'o -- you said Dam Similo'o --  33 A   No.  I didn't say it belongs to him, it belongs to  34 Spookw.  35 Q   Yes.  But in 1979 you said it belonged to Gyetm  36 Galdoo?  37 A   I don't remember saying that, but I've got to keep  38 telling you that we picked berries above it and I  39 looked down and I know for a fact it belongs to  40 Spookw.  41 Q   Neil Sterritt wrote down that he got that information  42 from you that Dam Similo'o was owned by Gyetm Galdoo,  43 so you told him that, didn't you?  4 4 A   I don't know, I don't remember.  45 Q   Well, you say now it's not correct?  46 A   It isn't correct because I don't remember saying it.  47 Q   But the note is not correct? 9843  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I believe it's not correct.  2 Q   All right.  3 A   Because -- and this map here he goes a little too high  4 up on the mountain here also.  5 Q   Yes.  You will agree with me now as a result of the  6 discussion today that you have changed your views over  7 the years after 1975 about the certain features in  8 Spookw's territory?  9 A   I believe that's just the working order that we were  10 discussing.  11 Q   Well —  12 A  At that time because I don't remember, because we --  13 you know, when we were working to establish something  14 you have to think of all avenues, and then you come  15 right down to the facts and then -- and then I believe  16 this -- I was surprised when I forgot who showed me  17 that map there at one time.  18 Q   Referring to Exhibit 5?  19 A  And I said "No, this is wrong", and I don't think they  20 have changed it after that.  21 Q   Oh, I see.  22 A   Yeah.  23 Q   And you're the most knowledgeable person about this  24 Spookw territory?  25 A  Well, I believe so, and then, you know, that's what  26 everybody says, but if they say I know so much about  27 it --  2 8 Q   And you learned --  29 A   I've learned from people that walk and I walked those  30 areas.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  And you learned information after 1975, didn't  32 you?  You kept learning new information?  33 MR. GRANT:  About which?  34 A   You see a lot of information coming in and out.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  36 Q   I mean about Spookw's territory?  37 A   Yeah, about Spookw's territory and other territories.  38 Not only Spookw's, but what I learned from my parents  39 and the chiefs of that territory I still maintain it,  40 but I have to discuss why and try and find out why  41 these people are saying these people own these areas  42 within the area.  43 Q   So after 1975 you continued to discuss it, the  44 territories with other people of the Gitksan nation?  45 A   Then you learn a lot of it from the feast hall.  46 Q   So you got more information from people who were alive  47 after 1975? 9844  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  A   There are people who are not knowledgeable about these  areas, and they pass it on because maybe one time or  another in the past in some of the other areas that  there -- that are talked about in the feast hall.  In  the feast hall most of the stuff come out, and if I  stand up and claim an area, a territory that shouldn't  be changed, and the witness in the feast hall would  get up and he would say to me, your honour, "You are  wrong", and I have to -- have to step back from it,  because one or two witnesses in the feast hall will  say that I'm wrong.  Q   Yes?  A  And I've seen that happen quite a few times.  Q   Right.  So therefore, just as you're saying, there  were people other than those informants that you've  named in paragraph 4 and told you about the territory,  living people?  A  Well, at that time, because there's most of them  passed away, all the high chiefs are passed on.  Q   That's right.  We're speaking about Spookw's  territory?  A   Yes.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  My lord, does your lordship wish to —  THE COURT:  All right.  Are you tendering this map?  MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord, that's Exhibit 5.  THE COURT:  It's already Exhibit 5.  MR. MACKENZIE:  An aide-memoire.  And so subject to your  lordship's --  THE COURT:  No.  There's no need to put anything in.  All right,  we'll adjourn then.  Is ten o'clock satisfactory?  MR. GRANT:  There's no difficulty as far as from the plaintiff's  side to start a little earlier in the morning.  I  think the only constraints that -- and with respect to  the witness as well, the only constraint we're faced  with is the reporter.  THE COURT:  He's had an easy day today, he doesn't have to work  at all tomorrow, as I understand.  MR. GRANT:  We're not opposed to starting —  THE COURT:  9:30.  MR. GRANT:  9:30.  THE COURT:  That convenient, Mr. Mackenzie?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  MR. GRANT:  And that way we can complete this -- be assured we  can complete this witness in the morning.  THE COURT:  All right, 9:30. Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court. 9845  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of  5 the proceedings herein transcribed  6 to the best of my skill and ability  7  8  9  10    11 Graham D. Parker  12 Official Reporter  13 United Reporting Service Ltd.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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