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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-21] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 21, 1988

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 9  10  11 THE  12 THE  13  14 THE  15  16  17  18  19  2 0 MR.  21 THE  22 MR.  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  27 THE  2 8 MR.  29  30  31 THE  32 MR.  33 THE  34  35  3 6 MR.  37 THE  38  39  40  41 MR.  42  43 THE  44  4 5 MR.  4 6 THE  47  4836  March 21, 1988  Vancouver, B.C.  THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  Majesty the Queen at bar, My Lord.  MR. GRANT:  Before my friend proceeds, I have an updated list of  words.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Which is just the additional words that we referred  to on Friday.  COURT:  Thank you.  REGISTRAR: I caution the witness and the interpreter you're  both still under oath.  COURT:  I'm sorry, Madam Registrar, the updated list that I  was just given it goes where?  I've got a list here  that goes up to number 712, but this list starts at  699.  Mr. Grant, we're in our normal state of confusion  here.  GRANT:  Oh, yes, I'm sorry.  COURT: The list that you have just handed up starts at 699.  GRANT: Yes.  COURT: The previous list I had went up to 712.  GRANT:  Yes, but I think the reason -- if you discard the  last page, if you're looking at the numerical  listings --  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  -- it's just that what has been done is that on the  same page from 699 to 712 there's been an addition  from 713 to 718.  COURT:  Not quite I'm afraid.  GRANT:  Just a moment, my Lord.  COURT:  If I would discard the last list -- the last page of  the last list I have, I would be losing numbers 664 to  699.  GRANT:  I see what has happened.  COURT:  So if I just cross out on the last page of the list  everything from 699 on on that page and then my next  page would be -- which you just handed me this  morning, starts at 699.  GRANT:  Yes, that would be probably the most appropriate.  I'm sorry, My Lord, I didn't --  COURT:  No, no, that's all right, no problem.  I think we  now have a list we can understand.  Thank you.  GRANT:  Yes, so that's right.  COURT:  Plant.  Thank you. 4837  1 CROSS-EXAMINATION CONT. BY MR. PLANT:  2 Q   Mr. Mathews, I have two or three questions relating to  3 your genealogy, or the genealogy of the House of  4 Tenimgyet, which is Exhibit 346.  That's in the  5 plaintiffs' book of documents, Madam Registrar.  6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.  7 MR. PLANT:  8 Q   Mr. Mathews, on Friday when Mr. Grant was asking you  9 questions near the end of his examination he asked you  10 about Edgar Wilson, Sam Derrick, and Celina Jack, and  11 these names did not, as of that point, appear on your  12 genealogy.  I believe that your evidence was that  13 these three individuals had been adopted into the  14 house?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Which type of adoption is it, the so-called legal  17 adoption where they become full members, or the type  18 of adoption which is to give, I suggest with respect,  19 to give them a seat in the feast hall?  20 A   I would say at this point that would happen here, that  21 I was trying to explain like you say to Mr. Grant,  22 that these might have happened as legal adoption  23 because as of today they are members of my house.  24 Yes.  25 Q   You consider them to be full members of your house?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   But do you recall an adoption ceremony taking place  28 with respect to any of these three individuals?  2 9       A   No, I didn't.  30 Q   Do you know when they were adopted in?  31 A   No, I can't say.  No.  32 THE COURT:  When you say "adoption ceremony", you mean at a  33 feast?  34 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  35 THE COURT:  There was no adoption ceremony at a feast?  36 THE WITNESS:   Not at this time.  They had already received  37 their names in the house, and I can't see why they'd  38 be re-adopted again if they are using the names of our  39 house.  Yes.  40 THE COURT:  You mean they had received their names and therefore  41 seat at the feast in some -- in the other form of  42 adoption --  43 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  44 THE COURT:  — previously?  45 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes, I see.  Thank you.  47 MR. PLANT:  Well, that wasn't what I understood, My Lord.  My THE COURT  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21 THE  22 MR.  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31 THE  32  33 THE  34 MR.  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  understanding --  :  I may have made it up,  better --  Mr.  4838  Plant, I'm just  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  What I understood you to be saying, Mr. Mathews, was  that these three people, Edgar Wilson, Sam Derrick,  and Celina Jack, might have been legal adoptions, but  in any event this happened before your time?  Yes.  So you never witnessed the actual adoption yourself?  We don't have to witness any adoption.  If they have  your name, then they were adopted is what I'm saying,  but if they weren't adopted, they've never use any of  our names.  The adoption, if it took place, took place before your  time?  Yes.  And as long as you can recall these three people have  been treated as members of the House of Tenimgyet?  Yes.  How do you spell Celina, please?  Excuse me?  Celina.  In the interrogatories  I'm not exactly sure of that.  it's spelled C-e-1-i-n-a, but  know how Celina spells her name?  A   No, that's about right what you just said there  COURT:  Reminds me of —  PLANT:  C-e-1-i-n-a.  COURT: -- somewhere near Salinas.  I  name before.  Oh, and Derrick,  WITNESS:   — c-k.  Mr. Mathews, do you  Yes.  think I've heard that  D-e-r-r-i-c-k?  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  And it's Edgar Wilson.  Edgar Wilson.  Would I -- do you know who the parents were of these  three individuals?  The first one?  Who —  Well, of Edgar Wilson, Sam Derrick or Celina Jack?  The last two I know.  They're from -- their sister, if  you go back where am I here, their mother is the  sister to Florence Tait.  And I believe you told us on Friday that Florence Tait  was the mother of Henry, Horace and Vina?  Yes.  Now, are Sam Derrick and Celina Jack brother and 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  2 0 MR.  21  22 THE  23 THE  24  25  26  2 7 MR.  28  29  30  31 THE  32 MR.  33  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37 THE  3 8 MR.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4839  sister?  A   Yes.  Q   And what of Edgar Wilson, do you know?  A   No, I don't know Edgar's parents, no.  Q   Now, Mr. Mathews, I'd like you to look at the  interrogatories again which are in my document book at  tab 8.  Turning now to the page which has the number 5  at the bottom and which has on it question 24, do you  see that Mr. Mathews, and the following page which is  a -- purports to be a list of Tenimgyet House members?  A   Yes.  Q   The question that I have for you is whether at the  time that -- whether these places of residence that  appear on schedule A, which is the page immediately  following the page on which question 24 appears,  whether those places of residence were correct at the  time that you swore the answer to the interrogatories?  A   Yes, these were -- they were residents at that place  then, yes.  PLANT:   My Lord, I would add these two pages to Exhibit  366.  COURT:  Yes, they can be 366 (b), these two pages.  REGISTRAR: Yes, in tab 8.  (EXHIBIT 366 (b): Tab  interrogatories)  PLANT:  Now, I want to refer to Exhibit 350 which was in the  plaintiffs' document book.  Mr. Mathews, you identified this document during  the course of your evidence?  COURT:  The tab number, please?  PLANT:  The document was the first document in a bundle of  documents which was at Tab 14 of the plaintiffs'  document book, My Lord.  COURT:  Yes.  PLANT:  The top page was removed and separately marked.  COURT:  Yes.  PLANT:  Q   This is an application for registration of a trap line  and it bears the name "Charles Smith", and you have  referred to Charles Smith during the course of your  evidence, Mr. Mathews, as your grandfather?  A   Yes.  Q   From time to time.  A   Not time to time, all the time.  Q   That was a misstatement on my part.  You referred to  him during his lifetime as your grandfather? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 THE  8  9 MR.  10 THE  11 MR.  12 THE  13 MR.  14 THE  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  3 0 MR.  31 THE  32  33 THE  34 THE  35 THE  36 THE  37 THE  38 THE  39 THE  40  41  42 MR.  43  44  45  46  47  4840  A   Yes.  Q   Did Charles Smith originally come from Kitseleas?  A   Yes.  That's where he was born at.  It's his dad came  as one of our members.  Yes.  Q   His dad was -- I beg your pardon?  A   Paul Wilson.  COURT:  Could you -- can we be given a spelling for  Kitseleas, please?  PLANT:  Well, I have it as K-i-t-s-e-1-e-a-s.  COURT:  Thank you.  PLANT:  I'm not sure if that is the correct spelling.  COURT:  All right.  And his father was?  PLANT:  Paul Wilson.  COURT:  Thank you.  And where is Kitseleas, please?  It's  not a name that's familiar to me.  WITNESS:   That's just up river from Terrace.  PLANT:  Q   But down river outside the Gitksan territory?  A   Yes.  Q   And but before you get to Terrace?  A   Yes.  Q   And Kitseleas is an Indian village?  A   Yes.  Q   The people from Kitseleas are among the people who are  referred to as the Tsimxsan?  A   Yes.  At the time they were living at Kitseleas we  have a name for them because they were mixed up and  they're called Enduuduun, and that's Kitseleas known  to you guys now, but we called them Enduuduun.  PLANT:   I think I'd like a spelling of that, please?  TRANSLATOR: Enduuduun. I'm not really sure how to spell  this, but I'll try.  E-n-d-u-u-d-u-u-n.  WITNESS:   That's how they were identified.  COURT:  — d-u-u-n?  TRANSLATOR: Yes.  COURT:  And is that what you call the people from Kitseleas?  WITNESS:   Yes.  COURT:  Yes?  WITNESS: That's how I was told by my grandfather that they  were never called Kitseleas at that time. The ancient  time they were called Enduuduun.  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Charles Smith's mother was who?  I don't know.  I can't tell you that.  Do you know where she came from?  Must be from Kitseleas.  That's why she come from  Kitseleas . 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  PLANT  20  THE  COURT  21  22  THE  TRANS  23  THE  COURT  24  THE  TRANS  25  MR.  PLANT  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  MR.  PLANT  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  PLANT  47  4841  Now, in your evidence you told us that Charles Smith  took control of the House of Ax tii hiikw through --  well, these are the words that I have, took control  you might say from amnigwootxw?  Yes.  Could you explain how he was related to the house?  How he's related to the house was his father, like I  said, was Paul Wilson who was Bii Lax ha.  And at some point, and I think it was you said as a  result of the disease or the aftermath of the disease?  Yes.  Charles Smith himself actually took a name in the  House of Tenimgyet for a period of time?  Yes.  Bii Lax ha was the one that he took.  And that's the name that he handed back in about 1941  or 1942?  Yes.  The name again?  Bii Lax ha.  I'm sure I have it somewhere, but -- I've got to  look for it sometime, I may as well do it now.  LATOR: 44 6.  :  426?  LATOR: 44 6.  Now, when Mr. Grant asked you some questions about the  application for registration of a trap line, which is  marked Exhibit 350, he asked you about the description  under the -- of the geographical points which appears  in the text of the application, and you said "If we  use our boundaries through our own system, this"  meaning the description, "relates very close to the  Tsihl Gwellii territory".  You recall that?  Yes.  Now, on Friday I believe your evidence was that you  had -- your first trip to the Sand Lake area was some  three or four years before Wallace Morgan died?  Yes.  Was that also your first trip to the Tsihl Gwellii  territory?  Yes.  :   Now, I -- what I'd like to do is to direct your  attention to a map which is in tab 15 of my document  book, My Lord, and --  :  Tab 15.  :  What this is is a photocopy, coloured photocopy, of  two provincial government maps that are in the one to 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  MR.  PLANT  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  THE  WITNE  14  15  MR.  PLANT  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  MR.  PLANT  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  PLANT  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  PLANT  40  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  PLANT  46  47  4842  250,000 scale, and I have put the two maps together  and taken only a portion of them.  I want to ask Mr.  Mathews some questions about the places which are  described in the Charles Smith registration  application and I wanted to do it with reference to a  map that had some geographical place names on it.  :  My map looks to be substantially different from  yours, Mr. Plant.  :  Yes, the reason I'm holding up this large map is  mostly to show my friend that this is the product from  which that was taken.  :  Oh, I see.  All right.  Thank you.  3S:   And your taping together is quite accurate to  down to the nearest inch I suppose?  Well, you will certainly have an opportunity to check  it, but I'm showing you --  Because if it's taped together, that's why I was  saying that --  I'll show you an example.  Here's the middle of the  map.  The road that goes by Sand Lake --  Oh, yes, okay.  And the road goes north and then it continues up and  heads up towards New Aiyansh and Canyon City.  Yes.  And here on the right side is the Skeena which flows  pass Cedarvale and then downstream towards the bottom  of the map.  I tried to match those up.  Yes, pretty close.  :  I just want to make sure, does the witness have the  one from the exhibit book?  :  He has the one from the exhibit book, yes.  Does  Your Lordship have Kitsum Kalum Lake and Sand Lake on  this document and --  :  Well, I haven't looked for them yet, but --  :  The way to get there is to go straight up from  Terrace which is at the bottom of the map.  :  Yes.  Are they marked?  :  Kitsum Kalum Lake is a large body of water which has  some blue in it.  I'd say it's an inch and a half or  two inches long on the map.  It's three or four inches  north and a little bit north-west of Terrace right at  the first fold.  :  Yes, I have it.  Yes.  :  And Sand Lake is a little bit harder to find.  If  you follow the roads that go on either side of Kitsum  Kalum Lake north -- 4843  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  PLANT  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  PLANT  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  MR.  PLANT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  MR.  PLANT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  MR.  PLANT  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  Yes,  -- up to the point where the two maps are taped  together --  Yes.  -- just below that is Sand Lake.  Yes, I have it.  Now, Mr. Mathews, I'd like to try to find some of the  places that you were able to find on Exhibit 350.  Have you got the trap line application form there?  In  typescript I'm referring to -- the place I'm referring  to on this document reads "Full description of trap  line showing location and sufficiently defining said  line by reference to the nearest known natural  geographical points."  Now, can you read what follows that in  handwriting?  Uh-huh.  See why I said this would follow pretty  closely is now you're getting into the area of what I  was trying to say.  When these were written up they  were done in somebody's office, not in actually going  out there.  That's the difference.  And, you know,  they might have gone through a whole bunch of  interpreters to try and get these.  And these were  done in our language and what happened — what my --  what I was told is they just read these names and say  "Pretty close, yes, yes."  Someone told you that?  Yes.  You haven't actually done that work yourself have you?  No.  So you --  Maybe you should ask who told him.  Pardon?  Maybe you should ask who told him.  Yes.  Who was it that told you that these related very  closely?  Wallace Morgan.  And when did he tell you that?  When we were on this trip, that -- the first trip I  told you about when he showed me the boundary, and if  you see some of these, if you follow them, they're  like I say, it could be pretty close but not right on  because somebody made this in somebody's office, see,  like all of them, but they didn't actually go through  the name of these places that -- some of them have 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  MR.  PLANT  13  14  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  PLANT  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  PLANT  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  PLANT  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  PLANT  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  PLANT  46  THE  COURT  47  4844  English names on it and you could see that none of  them had any of our names of our boundaries on it and  that so they know where they were going as long as  this was in -- they went to their territory.  So what you know though about this document, Exhibit  350, and whether or not it's accurate, is as a result  of what your grandfather Wallace told you?  Yes.  Okay.  I don't think I'll have to ask you any  questions then about it.  Because he's way older than I am.  I don't think I'll ask you any questions about this  map, although My Lord -- well, I'll keep it here for  just one minute.  Mr. Mathews, if you look at Cedarvale on the map,  My Lord, which would be up the Skeena --  Yes, I have it.  Cedarvale is --  Yes.  -- on the right-hand side about the middle of the  map.  Yes.  Between Cedarvale and Gitwingax or Kitwanga, which  is on the right -- extreme right of the map, about  half-way between is a place identified on this map as  Cottonwood Canyon.  Does Your Lordship have that?  Yes.  Well, that was the place Your Lordship asked me  about on Friday --  Yes, thank you.  Well —  -- where there had been --  -- is that demonstrated in the documents that that  is the place that was applied for?  I have not -- I  have not -- of course there were questions about this  application relating to Cottonwood Canyon and I  didn't -- couldn't identify it from those documents  that that was the Cottonwood Canyon.  I wonder if my  friend, if he does have documents that show that that  is the Cottonwood Canyon, if he could produce them to  me so that I have an opportunity to review them.  As  the court says, that's a very common name and the  cottonwood is a very common tree in this area.  Does Cottonwood Canyon appear on this Exhibit 350?  No, My Lord, I've left Exhibit 350.  Yes.  Well, what was the application or the area  applied for which Mr. Grant just made reference? 4845  1 MR. PLANT:  There was a reference on Friday to a timber sale, I  2 shouldn't say there was evidence because there wasn't.  3 I had some questions about a timber sale licence on  4 Friday in the area of Cottonwood Canyon and the  5 evidence stopped because Mr. Mathews said something --  6 he didn't know where Cottonwood Canyon was, or  7 something to that effect.  I -- all of the documents  8 that I have that relate to this matter have been  9 produced to my friend and I have not gone back to them  10 over the week-end to see if the timber sale licence  11 that I was referring to actually applies in respect of  12 a district lot in the area of Cottonwood Canyon as  13 marked on this map that I've prepared.  14 THE COURT:  May I just ask just one question to tie this in?  15 When did Wallace Morgan die, please?  16 THE WITNESS:   It was in December of '78.  17 THE COURT:  Thank you.  So I can put this away, can I, Mr.  18 Plant?  19 MR. PLANT:  20 Q   I may come back to it later, but I don't need it now.  21 How many times have you returned to the Tsihl  22 Gwellii territory since the first trip that you made  23 with Wallace Morgan a few years before he died?  24 A   The first one, and then after that in 1981 then we  25 really -- after you might say that I had the proper  26 name, not the -- when I received Tenimgyet I asked my  27 grandfather if I could go there and pick some berries  28 and he said "Yes", so after that we went every year.  29 When I say "we" includes my immediate family, my  30 mother and dad, my brothers and sisters go there.  31 Q   And who was the grandfather that you made that request  32 with, Geoffrey?  33 A   Geoffrey.  Yes.  34 Q   Have you gone back every year since then to pick  35 berries?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Now, I want to turn back to the interrogatories  38 extracts which are at tab 8 of my book of documents.  39 Now, in question number 31, Mr. Mathews, you were  40 asked whether you knew of any hereditary chiefs of the  41 Gitksan who were not plaintiffs in this action and you  42 said "Yes.".  And then in answer to question number 32  43 you identified the hereditary chiefs of the  44 Kitwancool, and then at the bottom of your answer you  45 said "I am able to represent the other chiefs of my  46 house.  I can only speak for the chiefs of my house.  47 The other chiefs in my house are..."  And then there's 4846  a list of three, "Ax tii hiikw, Bii Lax ha and 'Wii  Hlouts'"?  Yes.  Would I be correct in -- if I -- well, let me do it  this way.  Those three people, those three names there  are the other high chiefs in the house; is that  correct?  Yes.  There are other people who are members of your house  who hold simoogit names?  Yes.  And I think when you were referring to the exhibit  which shows the seating at the feasts, you've said  that there were the four ladies down to the right --  Yes.  -- that sit at your head table?  Yes.  Those people are also also chiefs in your house?  Yes.  :   Now, turning -- if I could ask you to turn the  page, Mr. Mathews, to question 58?  :  Just before my friend proceeds, I think the record  should be clear, My Lord, that he referred to those  ladies as sigidim haanak, not simoogit, and my friend  asked a question that there are other persons with  simoogit names.  These four ladies had sigidim haanak  names and that's what he described in his evidence.  I thought I just heard Mr. Mathews tell me that they  were simoogit names.  Do the four ladies who sit down to the right side  of you at the feast table, do they hold names which  you would call simoogit names?  Sigidim haanak. It is simoogit, sigidim haanak, the  ladies' side.  And they are -- the term that you're using is a  particular term for a chief's name?  I'm afraid I  can't reproduce your pronunciation of the term, but  would you say that the four ladies who are at the end  of the table are chiefs in your house?  Sigidim haanak.  Yes.  :  Can we have a spelling for that, please?  43 THE TRANSLATOR: Sigidim haanak is s-i-g-i-d-i-m h-a-a-n-a-k.  4 4 MR. PLANT:  45 Q   Is simoogit another word for chief?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And so these ladies are a particular kind of simoogit?  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  2 0 MR.  PLANT  21  22 MR.  GRANT  23  24  25  26  27  2 8 MR.  PLANT  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42 THE  COURT 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  4847  They're lower down.  Now, could you -- do you have question 58 in front of  you, Mr. Mathews?  Yes.  And that reads:  "Q    Does your house claim ownership of or  jurisdiction over any particular territory?  A    Yes."  Question 59 (c):  "Q    What are the boundaries of your house's  territory?"  And the answer is:  "A The approximate boundaries of my territory  are included in the maps which are set out  in schedule C except for my fishing sites."  You see that?  Yes.  Now, was there some reason -- was there some  uncertainty in your mind as of February 1987 as to the  location of the boundaries of the territories of the  House of Tenimgyet?  Well, at the time it's pretty hard for commoners --  when I say "commoners", when you're not a chief, to  follow descriptions of a chief because they have a  language unique of their own, so as you the board -- I  mean the bar would do.  We have terms that are so  close that if you try and follow it you'll be off.  You wouldn't go directly to where it was described  simply because the description chiefs use is -- and a  lot of them is going to, going away from, just going  sideways, over it, or these types of things, and so  that's how these errors came to be, yes, so we correct  them according to our descriptions.  How is it that you are able to correct the errors?  By what we did on the photo, by physically going there  and looking at it.  It's pretty hard if you try to  describe it, you have to be there to see it and  appreciate it.  But of course as of February '87 you'd been out on the  territory and your grandfather Wallace Morgan had  shown you where the places were? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  MR.  PLANT  34  35  36  37  THE  REGIS  38  MR.  PLANT  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  46  THE  COURT  47  4848  Yes.  So you're saying there was some difficulty in  translating what your grandfather told you directly  onto a map without some further work?  Not to me.  I didn't have difficulty finding it, but I  mean the difficulty is to try and relate it to the  maps and put it on a map like.  That's a new thing for  us trying to put it on a map, and what we've always  done is -- if you go there with me we'll have no  problem.  I'll take you anywhere you want to go.  Now, when you -- when you answered the interrogatory,  were there already some errors in your mind at that  time or was it just you were trying to be cautious  because you weren't sure if the various locations had  been correctly plotted?  Yes, we were trying to correct them to the proper,  like you say, kind of be cautious and see if we're  exact because if we're not exact our neighbours are  going to get mad at us if we try and step over our own  boundaries.  Was one of the reasons that you wanted to keep the  boundaries approximate because there were discussions  going on with the neighbours and you didn't want to  take a position that might cause hard feelings?  Not really.  We -- when I say "we", my house, was  always been straightforward and said "This is our  boundary and that's the way it stands."  And I think if I understand your evidence, it is that  you know where the boundary is if you're out there in  the field, the problem comes in trying to put it on a  map?  Yes.  Now, I want to look at the map, which is the map of  the Tsihl Gwellii territory which is the -- well, I  think it's the larger of the two maps in the house.  It's not that map, My Lord.  'RAR: Is that at tab 8?  Does Your Lordship have this on a north-south  access?  The words "draft copy" should be in the lower  left-hand corner.  Yes.  Well —  But I'm not sure.  Well, there's a north compass on one side, compass  arrow.  Well, I have Kitsum Kalum Lake on the bottom, and  everything else is north of there. 1  MR.  PLANT  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  MR.  PLANT  8  9  10  11  12  MR.  GRANT  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  MR.  PLANT  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  4849  And, Mr. Mathews, just to be sure you're oriented, you  see "Dam Gitsum Geelum"?  Yes.  That's Kitsum Kalum Lake?  Yes.  :   Having regard to what you've told me or told the  court, are there some corrections to this map which in  general terms you would make today with the further  knowledge that you've acquired since the date that you  swore the interrogatories?  :  Well, just a moment, My Lord.  I object to the  framing of that question because the witness has  clearly explained that he's known the boundaries all  along, the problem has been the mapping of the  boundary, and there's no evidence that this is the  witness who mapped it so it's not that he has got new  knowledge since February '87 to change the boundary.  I don't object to the area of questioning, but as it's  framed I think it's misleading and it misconstrues the  evidence that he's given.  :  I don't think you gentlemen really have anything to  fight about on this issue.  I think it will be  necessary, Mr. Plant, not for any forensic reason but  to have some continuity, for you to put the question  again anyway and if you do so you might be able to  meet your friend's observation, I won't put it as high  as an objection.  :  I'll try to ask a question that will get us to the  same place.  :  Thank you.  Mr. Mathews, the map that you're looking at is one of  the two maps that was attached to your  interrogatories?  Uh-huh.  Correct?  Yep.  And that map purports to depict the boundaries of the  territory of Tenimgyet?  Yes.  And would I be correct in assuming that the depiction  of the boundaries on this map is incorrect, which is  another way of saying that the boundaries as shown on  the map are not the boundaries as you understand them  to be; correct?  What I've described is what we -- our boundaries are, MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  9  10 THE  11 MR.  12 THE  13 MR.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 MR.  30  31 THE  32 THE  33 MR.  34 MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  PLANT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  4850  which is along here, yes, and including Dam Git axsol.  Well —  He was referring to the place along the bottom, My  Lord.  Yes, I'm able to follow him.  Git axsol I think it was.  He was drawing his hand approximately in the area of  the dark line that goes between Sand Lake and Kitsum  Kalum Lake.  found Sand Lake on this one.  is Dam Git axsol.  Yes.  I haven't  Sand Lake  Oh, yes.  You see  COURT:  WITNESS  GRANT:  PLANT:  Q  Perhaps I should ask you this, Mr. Mathews,  the dark, fairly dark line on this map?  Yes.  And that line, so far as you are concerned, is a  depiction of the boundary of the territory of  Tenimgyet?  Yes.  Is that line in the right place?  If it follows the -- the creek, yes.  Are you able to identify any places on this map apart  from this creek which you've pointed out, the general  area from Kitsum Kalum Lake to Sand Lake where the map  shows the correct boundaries of Tenimgyet?  Yeah, this one's all right.  Yeah, pretty close.  Yeah.  The witness is referring to that creek between the  two lakes, My Lord, in his answer.  West of the boundary?  Yes.  Yes.  How about north of the two lakes and the creek, as my  friend Mr. Grant's referred to, is the boundary in the  northern part of the territory correctly shown on that  map?  A   Yes, because in our term yesterday in my evidence I  say it follows haahl daax sga'nist, on the heights of  the land up in that area.  Q   Well, I want to ask you about a few things that are  shown on this map that have arisen during the course  of your evidence.  Firstly, about half-way between  Sand Lake and Kitsum Kalum Lake --  A   Yes.  Q   -- there's an -- I think you might call it an artistic 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  MR.  PLANT  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  PLANT  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  PLANT  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  PLANT  47  THE  COURT  4851  representation of a tee pee?  Uh-huh.  With the term, I may not have that correct, but there  is the word there Git lax an dek'?  Yes.  Now, that's number 402 on the word list.  And if you remember I just named Git lax an dek'  doesn't belong to us.  I already established that, so  that thing is out of there. We were talking about  boundaries and Git lax an dek' it shows on this  boundary.  I want to ask you to look at Exhibit 349 at the same  time as this because the Git lax an dek' is in a  different place on Exhibit 349.  Now, Mr. Mathews,  during your evidence in chief you drew a number one --  Yes.  -- to the left of Kitsum Kalum Lake on Exhibit 349?  That would be way back here.  Would be off to the right if Kitsum Kalum Lake is on  the right as you're looking at the interrogatories  map; is that correct?  Yes.  So the location of Git lax an dek', as shown on this  map, which is to say between Kitsum Kalum Lake and  Sand Lake, is not correctly shown?  That's right.  The correct location is down near --  Right there.  Off the shore of -- off the west shore of Kitsum Kalum  Lake?  Yes.  My Lord, I should have done this a few minutes ago.  Could I tender the interrogatories map as the next  exhibit and then I can have a number to refer to?  Yes. Well, are you putting in the interrogatories?  If it could be given a number in the context of  Exhibit 366.  It's one of the two maps that was  attached to the interrogatory.  Well, you haven't put in all of the interrogatories.  Well, no.  If we're housekeeping in that sense  perhaps what I should do first is tender question  31 --  Yes.  -- as Exhibit 366 (c).  Yes.  And then tender question 58 and 59, the text --  Yes. 1 MR.  2 THE  3  4 MR.  5 THE  6 THE  7 MR.  8 MR.  9 MR.  10 MR.  11 THE  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  2 0 MR.  21 THE  22 MR.  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 MR.  33 THE  34 MR.  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37 THE  3 8 MR.  39 THE  4 0 THE  41 MR.  42  43  44  45  46  47  4852  PLANT:  — as 366 (d) .  COURT:  Yes.  And this map then should be 366  think.  PLANT: Yes.  REGISTRAR: Is that question 31 and 32?  (e) I should  COURT  GRANT  PLANT  GRANT  PLANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  Q  A  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  TRANS  PLANT  Q  A  Yes.  And it's 59 (c) and (d) I believe.  Excuse me?  58 and 59 (c) and (d); is that right?  They are in the book which is here.  Yes, 31 and 32 will be 366 (c) and then 56  366 (d) , and the map will be 366 (e) .  will be  (EXHIBIT 366 (c)  interrogatories)  (EXHIBIT 366 (d)  interrogatories)  (EXHIBIT 366 (e)  Question 31 and 32 from  Question 58 and 59 from  Map)  That's the one map is it?  Yes.  And I'll refer to the other map later.  Now, the next part of the map, 366 (e), I wanted  to ask you about is the name of the creek which flows  between Sand Lake and Kitsum Kalum Lake, and on the  map the only name that I can see is Gis axsol, G-i-s  a-x-s-o-1.  Do you see that, Mr. Mathews?  Yes.  Is that the name of the creek that flows in that area?  No, this one we call Gisihl iit.  My spelling of that is G-i-s-i-h-1 i-i-t.  I'm sorry?  I don't have a number for that.  G-i-s —  -- i-h-1 --  -- i-h-1 --  Space i-t-t  — i-i-t.  LATOR: 62 0.  I'm sorry, i-i-t.  Is the name that you've just given, which I take to be  the correct name of the creek, does that apply to the  water course all the way between Sand Lake and Kitsum  Kalum Lake?  That's all I know it of and what my grandparents have  described it is, yes, Gisihl iit. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14 MR.  GRANT  15  16 MR.  PLANT  17  18 THE  TRANS  19 THE  WITNE  2 0 MR.  PLANT  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4853  Now, you've told us about a place where caribou were  located up in the northern part of this territory.  The name of the place that you gave us, which actually  does appear on the map, Exhibit 366 (e), is Sganism  habasxw?  Tsim aakhl gan k'ek'.  No, I'll show you the spelling of it on the map.  Oh, Sganism habasxw.  It was marked by you with a number 6 on Exhibit 349?  Yes.  You see that.  Now, up in the north the same word  appears, do you see that on Exhibit 366 (e)?  Yes.  :  On Exhibit 366 (e) for the record it's S-g-a-n-i-s-m  h-a-b-a-s-x-w.  :  This place is up in pretty mountainous country? Oh,  excuse me?  LATOR: I didn't get that, something habasxw?  3S:   Sganism habasxw.  The place I'm referring to now, Mr. Mathews, is up in  some fairly mountainous country?  Yes, but there's just one going this way which we call  Sganism habasxw which is -- you could see it coming  through here.  Is it a ridge?  It's a mountain, yes.  And you were drawing your hand over the place where  those words appear on the map?  Yes.  Have you been up there yourself?  No, my dad has.  Your dad is Art Matthews Senior?  Yes.  Now, Exhibit 366 (e) shows that place to be on the  boundary; is that correct?  Yes.  When you marked number 6 on this map here it doesn't  show that to be on the boundary, so would you agree  with me that the number 6 on Exhibit 349 should be  moved up a little bit further north?  No, it covers the whole -- the ridge comes right down  here, that's what I was trying to explain.  Oh, I see.  Yes?  And along the ridge like this.  The ridge is several miles long?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  MR.  GRANT  18  MR.  PLANT  19  Q  20  A  21  MR.  PLANT  22  23  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  PLANT  34  35  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  41  MR.  PLANT  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  PLANT  44  Q  45  46  47  4854  Now, if I could go back to the southern part of this  territory, Mr. Mathews, Exhibit 366 (e) shows the  boundary on the south shore of Sand Lake, you see  that?  You're pointing at it now.  Is the boundary of  the territory in relation to Sand Lake correctly  marked on Exhibit 366 (e)?  This one, yes.  Yes.  So it's along the south shore?  Yes.  How do you -- who taught you that?  Well, if you're talking about the lake, you'd take in  the whole lake wouldn't you, and that's what they told  me.  They said that Git axsol belongs to us, belongs  in our house.  And that's Wallace Morgan who told you that?  Yes.  :  He said "they".  Well, who else besides Wallace Morgan?  The three of them again, Wallace, Geoffrey and Jack.  :   I want to read you an extract, Mr. Mathews, from  the examination for discovery of Neil Sterritt, Neil  John Sterritt.  :  I'm not certain, My Lord, but is it appropriate  where this is another witness or a discovery of  another witness, this is exactly the concern we had  last week, he's going to ask whether this witness  agrees or disagrees with what another witness has  said.  Ultimately, of course, he has the discovery, he  will be able to read it in to you at some time.  What  point does it make whether Mr. Mathews agrees or  disagrees with Mr. Sterritt?  :  Perhaps my friend could hold his objection until he  sees whether or not that is the question I'm going to  ask because in this case, My Lord, it is not the  question I'm going to ask?  And I'm not going to ask  this witness to comment on evidence given by Mr.  Sterritt.  :  I think that would be objectionable if you sought to  do so.  We'll hear what your question is.  And my friend --  Mr. Grant.  -- can spring to his feet.  Yes.  I only have one copy  of the transcript here and I want to be sure that you  have an opportunity to read with me, Mr. Mathews.  Question 1574: 4855  1  2 "Q    My understanding is Cedarvale is not -- Sand  3 Lake is on the border is it not?  4 A    Sand Lake is at the western border, and I  5 should also advise you that I have  6 instructions based on the discussions with  7 the hereditary chiefs from that area that  8 the boundary be drawn along the north shore  9 of that lake, and at one point it may have  10 been at the south side and that would have  11 been because I drew it there, and have  12 confirmed through discussions with the  13 hereditary chiefs and the elders that it  14 should have been on the north shore,  15 although there is an island in the middle of  16 the lake that belongs to that family."  17  18 Question 1575:  19  20 "Q    And which family is that, please?  21 A    That is the family of Tenimgyet."  22  23 Now, my question for you, Mr. Mathews, is were you  24 one of the hereditary chiefs who instructed Mr.  25 Sterritt to draw the border, the boundary, on the  26 north shore rather than the south shore of Sand Lake?  27 A  Well, that's the difficulty I was telling you, when we  28 say K'yaanim Git axsol, that means it belongs to us,  2 9 and I don't know how that came about that he drew it  30 on the north, whereas all along we say right from the  31 beginning Git axsol belongs to us and Lax lilbax is on  32 that island right close -- right in the middle of it.  33 Now, I don't know how that got mixed up, but I've said  34 it over and over again, and I'm not going to give up  35 on this area that belongs to us.  I disregard what Mr.  36 Sterritt has to say, I'm sorry to say that, but this  37 area belongs to us.  38 Q   Mr. Mathews, are you aware that the Tsimxsan people  39 say that the Sand Lake belongs to them?  40 A   That's where the language differs again.  You see they  41 say they go up to it or all of it or against it.  42 That's where you see the chiefs' language, okay, I was  43 talking about, okay, what do they mean by going to  44 Sand Lake?  We say all of it's ours.  They could say  45 they couldn't go up against it, but that doesn't mean  46 they own the whole lake because you could see that's  47 our boundary, and they could say, okay, we go up to 4856  1 Sand Lake, and then the interpretation gets -- then  2 you say okay, which part is Sand Lake?  Well, that's  3 what I'm talking about was the whole thing.  We claim  4 the whole thing.  5 MR. PLANT:   Do you know whether or not the Tsimxsan people  6 claim the whole of Sand Lake?  7 MR. GRANT:  Well, I think there's some question here of  8 precision as to which Tsimxsan people my friend is  9 referring to.  10 THE COURT:  I don't think that matters in this context.  11 MR. GRANT:  Well, no — well, it matters for the witness to  12 understand the question, My Lord.  This -- he's given  13 evidence that there's people that are Nishga and  14 Tsimxsan and Gitksan all around here and there's  15 different groups of Tsimxsan that may be involved  16 here.  I think it's only fair to the witness to say  17 who he's referring to because it may be -- it may be a  18 Nishga or a Gitksan who's living in Kitsum Kalum that  19 my friend is referring to.  20 THE COURT:  Well, I thought the question was clear enough and  21 could be answered and I think it should be answered.  22 MR. PLANT:  23 Q   Unfortunately I'm not sure that I'm going to be able  24 to repeat it quite as eloquently as I'm sure it was  25 stated the first time, but I'll try.  2 6 Mr. Mathews, you're aware of the fact that the  27 Tsimxsan people claim all of Sand Lake?  28 A   No, I don't.  I'm not aware of it.  29 Q   Are you aware of any claim made by the Nishga to Sand  30 Lake or any part of it?  31 A   I'm aware that they claim it.  Yes.  32 Q   And they claim all of it?  33 A   Yes, and I've told them no, it belongs to us.  34 Q   Now, I want to come back to the transcript extract I  35 read to you a minute ago because I'm not sure that I  36 had an answer to my question.  Did you instruct Mr.  37 Sterritt to change the boundary as depicted on the  38 maps in the area of Sand Lake and to draw it on the  39 north shore?  4 0       A   No.  41 THE COURT:  Should we take the morning adjournment, Mr. Plant?  42 MR. PLANT:  Yes, My Lord.  43 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Court will recess.  44  45  46  47 4857  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15)  3  4  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to  7 be a true and accurate transcript  8 of the proceedings herein to the  9 best of my skill and ability.  10  11    12 Tanita S. French  13 Official Reporter  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER A SHORT RECESS)  46  47 THE REGISTRAR:  Ready to proceed, My Lord? 4856  1 THE COURT: Mr. Plant.  2  MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  PLANT  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  PLANT  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  PLANT  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  PLANT  47  THE  COURT  Thank you, My Lord.  The other question I want to ask  you about this map, Exhibit 366E, Mr. Mathews, is  whether it shows your neighbours -- if I can use that  term -- correctly.  And by that I mean the Gitksan  chiefs who claim territory adjacent to your Tsihl  Gwellii territory.  And sorry it's so unwieldy.  If I  can just give the map back to you and ask you to have  a look and start -- have you got the map with north  pointing to the left?  So at the extreme left, which  would be the far north, the first name is Yal, Y-a-1.  Yal.  That's a Gitksan chief's name?  Yes.  Fireweed clan?  Yes.  Does Yal have territory immediately to the north of  Tsihl Gwellii?  Yes, under top right-hand --  I'm not asking you -- I'm not now asking you whether  that's the way it is shown on the map, I'm asking you  whether that is the way it is out there on the ground.  Yes.  Okay.  Carrying around to the east, the next one is  Lelt?  Lelt, yes.  And is Lelt your neighbour in the northeast?  Yes.  Then carrying down we have Wii hlengwax?  Yes.  And Guxsan?  I'm sorry?  It would be along the eastern side of the map, My  Lord.  Oh, yes.  All right.  Same name written twice.  Yes,  thank you.  Wii hlengwax is in the extreme corner, but on my  reading of the map, at least that part of the  territory doesn't connect to the Tenimgyet territory.  I see.  All right.  May be one territory whipping around, but I'm only  asking about the part that lies between Lelt and  Guxsan.  Yes.  So we have starting basically from north to south.  Mr. Grant. 1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  4  5  6  MR.  PLANT  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  11  12  MR.  GRANT  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  PLANT  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  MR.  PLANT  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  MR.  GRANT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  4859  :  Yes, My Lord.  I just wanted to note that of course  on this map, which was exhibited to the interrogatory,  there is no -- there is no reliance by this witness,  either in the interrogatories or otherwise, as to  those boundaries between those.  :  I am asking the witness whether they are correct, My  Lord.  I quite agree that the map does not demonstrate  that on the face of the interrogatories.  : He's not asking the witness to authenticate the  correctness of the map, he's just asking if these are  neighbours.  :  That these people are neighbours.  I just wanted to  make that comment to the Court.  I don't object to the  question as far as --  : Okay.  Then coming back to the map.  Let me now hold that  corner going down the eastern side, if you will.  Wii  hlengwax, Guxsan, Lelt and Hakw.  Yes, Hakw appears to  come just there.  Yes.  Are those your neighbours along the eastern side of  the Tsihl Gwellii territory?  Yes.  :  Thank you.  Those are the questions I have on that  map now, My Lord.  I may come back to it at one point  later.  I did mean to ask you this, although it doesn't need  the map.  I asked you about Yal, and is -- what  village is Yal from?  :  Is that Y-a-1?  :  Y-a-1, yes.  Excuse me for my pronounciation.  What village is Yal from?  Now presiding now you mean?  No, what village -- I mean the traditional village.  Traditionally I think it's Kitsegukla.  Who holds the name today?  George Turner.  And does he live in Kitsegukla?  At this time Kitwanga.  So Yal is a Gitksan name from Kitsegukla?  Yes.  Mr. Mathews, have you told us that your wife is from  Kitkatla?  Yes.  What is the languages which is spoken in your house?  And by house in that context, I mean your family's 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12 THE  13 THE  14 THE  15 THE  16 MR.  17  18  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21 MR.  22  2 3 MR.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4860  home.  A  Which language?  Q   Yes.  A  Well, I teach my children some of ours and she teach  them some of theirs, so they could have understanding  between the two grandfathers.  Q   I think I would be correct, then, in assuming that  your wife speaks her native language?  A   Yes.  Quite close to ourselves, just a little  different.  Like if we say grandfather, we say Ni ye',  and to them it's just yaayaa.  I'm sorry?  That's how they express the grandfather.  What is it again?  Yaayaa.  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  PLANT:  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  PLANT  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  The latter term is the simxsan term for grandfather?  Yes, something like that.  I'm only surprised because it's the same in Greek.  We are working on those connections, My Lord.  Well, if they get a claim for the island of Corfu,  want to get right on board.  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Are they close enough that when your wife speaks  simxsan that you can understand her?  Yes.  And vice versa, when you are speaking Gitksan does  your wife follow you?  Yes, she can understand some elderly person if they  use our language, she knows what they are talking  about.  Now, moving east up to, say, Kispiox.  Have you  attended feasts in Kispiox?  Not really, no.  How about in Hazelton?  No.  Have you heard people speak Gitksan the way it is  spoken in Kispiox and Hazelton?  Yes.  Is it exactly the same as the way you speak in  Kitwanga, or are there some differences?  Just a little different, yes.  What kind of differences?  I can't think right off the bat, but there is -- there  is some quite different in some things.  Especially  when we say smell, that's a difference.  We say yim,  to them they say haa neek'.  So we understand.  We 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  THE  REGIS  26  MR.  PLANT  27  28  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  PLANT  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  THE  WITNE  46  MR.  PLANT  4861  know their language, they know ours.  Are there some differences in pronounciation?  A little bit, yes.  When your wife goes -- let me ask you this.  Does your  wife actually attend feasts in Kigwanga?  Yes.  And she has a seat in the feast hall somewhere?  Yes, she sits with her sister, beside her sister, yes.  And is your sister -- I'm sorry, it's her sister.  Is  she a member of a Gitksan house?  Yes.  Which house is that?  Right now?  Yes.  Gwisgyen.  That's the house that your wife will be adopted into?  Yes.  And until that adoption, she has a seat beside her  sister in the feast hall?  Yes.  Now, I wanted to ask you another question about --  from the interrogatories, which is not yet in the  bundle, I'm afraid.  Well, I have another extract to  be inserted at tab -- that tab of my document book.  'RAR: Tab 8, My Lord.  And this is from interrogatory number 18.  Perhaps  that could be inserted in the numerically correct  place in Tab 8, My Lord.  And that's —  Yes, all right.  Perhaps it should be added at the end, because --  Yes, it should be at the end, I think.  Yes.  Under your children in the answer to question 18, Mr.  Mathews -- well, first of all would you read that and  familiarize yourself with it, and then — I'll tell  you what my question is.  First question is that you  have got your -- a house there for your children, and  I think that you would agree with me that that's the  house that your children will be in when they are  adopted?  Yes.  Okay.  You are happy with that?  Would you like some  more time to read the answer?  Give him an opportunity to read it.  S: Yes.  Okay.  47 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 MR.  10  11 THE  12 THE  13 THE  14  15  16  17 MR.  18  19  2 0 THE  21 MR.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4862  of the answer to question 18 is correct?  A   It will be correct, yes, once they are adopted into  the Gwisgyen, yes.  Q   And as to the grandparents and parents, that part is  correct?  A  My mother and dad you are talking about?  Q   Yes.  A   Yes.  PLANT:  Then at this point I would ask that that be marked  as the next exhibit.  COURT:  F, I think, isn't it?  REGISTRAR:  Yes, F, My Lord.  COURT:  366F.  (EXHIBIT NO. 366F - TAB  INTERROGATORY #18)  PLANT:  Now, My Lord, when I was referring to question 58  and 59, the text of question 58 and 59, I would ask  that they both be lumped under 366 D.  COURT:  Yes.  PLANT:  Q   Now, one of your daughters on interrogatory number 18  named Karen who appears to be quite a bit older than  the others --  Yes.  Was she a child of an earlier marriage?  Yes.  And did that -- I guess my first question is, is she  also in the group who will be adopted into the house  of Gwisgyen?  Yes.  That first marriage ended in divorce?  Yes.  And was there a divorce feast?  On my part?  Yes.  No, because that happened before, and I don't think I  have to, because I wasn't the cause of it.  Okay.  That was the area of interest.  Is there a rule  that applies to the holding of divorce feasts?  If you cause it, yes.  If you're the cause of the divorce, then you have to  put up the feast?  Yes.  But not otherwise?  Not that I know of, no.  Okay.  Now, your father's mother appears to be Janet  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 4863  1 Mathews, and your father's father appears to be  2 Herbert Mathews.  Do you see that?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And neither of them are of your house?  5 A   No.  6 Q   I -- how was it that your father came to be born on  7 your Xsigwin ixst'aat territory?  8 A   Through Janet Mathews.  That is Sophia Smith's  9 daughter, if I remember correctly, and you remember  10 that Charles Smith and Sophia Smith were on the  11 Xsigwin ixst'aat territory that lived on that smoke  12 house, yes.  13 Q   I don't think we established, or if we have I have  14 forgotten, the relationship between Sophia Smith and  15 Charles Smith.  16 A   They are husband and wife, but they raised my dad  17 right from there too, I think.  Their mother died of  18 an earlier age and my father was raised by these two  19 people, Sophia and Charles Smith.  20 Q   And that's the explanation for his close association  21 with this place and your house?  22 A   Not all of it.  Besides that, he is married to my  23 mother now.  24 Q   Oh, yes, of course.  Okay.  Now, I have finished with  25 that question, Mr. Mathews.  2 6 THE COURT: Mr. Mathews, I would like to know, is the divorce  27 that you went through, was that an Indian ceremony or  28 was that a divorce according to the laws of British  29 Columbia?  30 THE WITNESS:  That happened -- that was my wife's part, not my  31 part.  32 THE COURT:  But it was a divorce in this court?  33 THE WITNESS:  I assume it would have, yes.  34 THE COURT:  It wasn't an Indian divorce?  35 THE WITNESS:  No.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  37 MR. PLANT:  38 Q   Now, Mr. Mathews, I want to draw your attention now to  39 a trial that was held in Smithers sometime ago,  40 involving the prosecution of your father for an  41 offence under the Fisheries Act.  You appeared as a  42 witness in that trial?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And I want to show you an extract from the transcript  45 of that trial and ask you some questions arising out  4 6 of some of the evidence which you gave there.  And the  47 extract is from the proceedings at trial on November 4864  1 4, 1985.  Do you recall giving evidence then, Mr.  2 Mathews?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   If I could refer you to page 11, line 17.  Do you have  5 page 11?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Beginning at line 17, Mr. Grant asks you some  8 questions and you gave answers, which I will read:  9  10 "Q   Now, you know the fishing site at Wilson  11 Creek?  12 A   Yeah.  13 Q   I believe you gave evidence that you were  14 there when you grew up -- when you were  15 seven or eight years old?  16 A   That's right.  17 Q   With your grandfather.  And who was that?  18 Which grandfather were you living there  19 with?  20 A  With Charles Smith, Wee'Hlawts.  21 Q   And your grandfather, Charles Smith, died in  22 1949?  23 A   That's right.  24 Q   And what part of the year would you live at  25 Wilson Creek?  26 A   Right from when I was -- started walking  27 around, I guess, until my grandfather,  28 Charles Smith, died in 1949.  29 Q   Okay.  Did you live there all year round or  30 just in certain seasons?  31 A   It was pretty seasonal, yeah.  Right after  32 school, like the middle of June 'til  33 September."  34 Now pausing there.  Were you asked those questions  35 and you gave those answers?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And they were true?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Now, turning over the page to page 12, beginning at  40 approximately line 14, still talking about Wilson  41 Creek.  42  43 "Q   Now, you stopped going there when your  44 grandfather died?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 Q   Can you explain why?  47 A   It was the end of an era when my grandfather 4865  1 died and then the Morgans took over; my  2 other set of grandfathers and their tribe  3 and the old man, Charles Smith, said, 'When  4 I die, don't come back here anymore because  5 it will be different, unless you get  6 permission from the new chiefs that were  7 going to be there.'  8 Q   And was that Wallace Morgan?  9 A   That's right.  10 Q   Who died later and Geoffrey Morgan?  11 A   Yes, we followed the rules."  12 Were you asked those questions and did you give  13 those answers?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And they were true?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   What were the rules that you followed?  18 A   The rules I have just tried to explain in the front  19 part here.  I guess what you are trying to say about  20 like when grandpa, Charlie Smith, was there, we went  21 there, you might say, without regularly asking direct  22 permission, because he was our grandfather and we just  23 went there.  And you could see what I was saying here,  24 that it will change -- the rules will change.  But  25 when Grandpa, Geoffrey and Wallace and Jack take over,  26 then we would have to have direct permission.  That's  27 what I was trying to put across here.  28 Q   I see.  Now, could you turn to page 20 please,  29 starting at line 33.  And this was during  30 cross-examination by a Mr. Halfyard, H-a-1-f-y-a-r-d.  31 Do you have line 33?  32 A   Yes.  33  34 "Q   How many fishing sites does the house of  35 Aktii Hiik have?  How many sites do you now  36 control.  37 A   There's about fifteen that I know of, but  38 Henry Wilson says there's a bit more than  39 that but, like I said, the only one that I  40 know of that we use steady and the rest were  41 used years ago when the whole tribe used to  42 live there but now there's only two or three  43 of us, we use the site."  44 And pausing there.  You were asked that question and  45 gave that answer?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And the site that you are referring to is the site at 4866  1 Wilson Creek?  2 A   Right at where the Smoke House is.  That's where I  3 have been referring to this, where everybody has been  4 using, the three ones that I used pretty steady, like  5 Miinhl am k'ooxst, Gwin K'alp, Gwin Gibuus, like  6 across that area used steady.  7 MR. PLANT:  Do you have those, Mrs. Stephens?  8 THE TRANSLATOR: I got Miinhl am k'ooxst, Gwin K'alp, and I  9 missed the last one.  10 THE WITNESS: Gwin Gibuus.  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  12 MR. PLANT:  13 Q   Now, carrying on:  14 "Q   And out of those approximate fifteen sites  15 or more, one of those sites is the one that  16 your father and mother had been fishing and  17 yourself in the last three years?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   There was a stretch there for, as I  20 understand you, over 30 years where you and  21 your parents didn't use that fishing site?  22 A   Yes, that's right.  I explained why we  23 didn't use it because of the change in the  24 chiefs."  25 You were asked those questions and you gave those  26 answers?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 Q   And they were true?  29 A  What I was trying to say here -- yes, we didn't live  30 there but we used the site, yes.  Our grandfather, we  31 go there in a truck and pick up some fish and go home.  32 Q   Well, that wasn't the question that was asked.  If you  33 go back to the bottom of page 20, the question was:  34 "Q  There was a stretch there for, as I  35 understand you, over 30 years where you and  36 your parents didn't use that fishing site?  37 A   Yes, that's right.  I explained why we  38 didn't use it because of the change in the  39 chiefs."  40 A   Yes, we didn't use it outright, but we had to get  41 permission is what I am trying to say here.  We didn't  42 go and just throw our net in here when the rules  43 change, as you heard it, we have to go ask direct  44 permission.  And that's what I was saying here, not  45 that we didn't use the site at all.  46 Q   Is it your evidence that during the period between the  47 death of your grandfather, Charles Smith, in 1949, and 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  2 0 THE  21 THE  22 THE  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 THE  41 THE  42 THE  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45  46  47  4867  the period of approximately 1981/'82, when you went  back to the site, that you did make use of that  fishing site?  A   Yes.  Q   And you used it with permission?  A   Yes.  Q   Rather than as a right?  A   Yes, as of just going on there on your own.  You must  remember, like I said, we have to follow some of those  rules, and if it says we have to have permission, we  go and get permission, just like anybody -- a member  at that house.  Q   Thank you.  Those are all the questions I have on that  transcript.  I am going to change the subject again.  Mr. Mathews, what does the word Gitwingax mean in  Gitksan?  A   People of the rabbits.  Q   People of the rapids?  A   Rabbits, not rapid.  COURT:  I don't know if it's rabbits, rapids or --  WITNESS:   The animal.  COURT:  And did you say people of rabbits?  WITNESS:   Yes, people of the rabbits, yes, Gitwingax.  PLANT:  Q   Now, you told us that in 1956 you left school on or  about the time of your 16th birthday?  A   Yes.  Q   And in September, 1971 you started work at what is now  called the Weststar mill in Kitwanga?  A   Yes.  Q   In between those two times you spent some time working  in mobile saw mills, moveable saw mills in the area?  A   Portable saw mills, yes, off and on, yes.  We got very  little saw mills there that we can work on.  Q   I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last part.  A   I said there is very little saw mills we can go to  work on, yes.  Q   Was this winter logging or summer logging or both?  A   Both.  COURT:  Were you logging or were you working in saw mills?  WITNESS:   Saw mills.  COURT:  You weren't logging?  WITNESS:  I logged for a little while, yes.  PLANT:  Q   I'm sorry, my question assumed something that should  not have been assumed.  The sawmill work, was that --  when the sawmill work was there, was that all year 4868  1 round or did that happen at any particular season?  2 A   Some parts are here -- when I got into the fishing, it  3 was seasonal, yes.  I went back in the wintertime.  4 Q   When you went back in the winter you --  5 A   On the saw mills, on some logging, yes.  6 Q   And you, as I now understand it, you also did some  7 logging in addition to your work at saw mills?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   How many years did you work as a commercial fisherman?  10 A   From 1958 'til 71.  11 THE COURT:  What kind of fishing was that?  12 THE WITNESS: Just gill-netting.  13 THE COURT: Gill-netting?  14 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  15 THE COURT:  On the Skeena?  16 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  17 MR. PLANT:  18 Q   At the coast?  19 A   Yes.  That's the only place where fishing.  We got  20 some good sites that was hand down -- when I say hand  21 down, we know the habits of the fish and we just go  22 there.  Grandfather take us to these sites even off  23 our territory.  They know exactly the habits of the  24 fish, and we got landmarks that we carry on.  25 Q   This was down at the coast?  26 A   Yes, around the Rupert area, yes, mouth of the Skeena.  27 Q   About what time of year does the commercial fishing  28 season -- or rather did it begin during the years that  29 you were --  30 A  When I was there, my goal was while I worked in the  31 saw mills in the summer, and I usually go right in the  32 middle of July 'til the 20th of August is always my  33 target -- between them time.  34 Q   The fishing would be between the middle of July and  35 the 20th of August?  36 A   Yes, only a month or six weeks or whatever it is, five  37 weeks.  Because like I say, we know the habit of the  38 fish, we go there.  We know where to get them.  39 Q   Did you own your own boat?  40 A   No, I rented it.  41 Q   And if you were only down there for a month or so, did  42 you take your family with you at any point?  43 A   Not at this time.  Not at the earliest time, no.  44 Q   Was there a time when you did take your family down to  45 the coast for commercial fishing?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   When was that? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  4869  The earlier years, the one Karen, the little girl --  Karen was just a small girl.  I forget the year.  I  think she was about 9.  You went down the coast with her?  Yes.  But your home was still in Kitwanga during the time  that you worked at the Weststar mill.  Have you done  8 any trapping yourself?  9 A   Yes, I teach my children at Xsi gwin ixst'aat.  We  10 don't use these metal traps.  I teach them how to use  11 these dead falls, which are very more effective than  12 the spring type.  13 Q   And have you trapped to catch -- to get pelts to sell  14 them?  15 A   Yes, mostly marten.  Call that hat' in our language.  16 Q   What would you say is your average annual income from  17 trapping over the years since 1971?  18 A   Every year we would start the end of November, be a  19 good time to start, whenever it starts getting really  20 cold.  You get better price for them because the fur  21 thickens and everything.  So anywhere there, if it  22 gets cold, or before the end of November we would go,  23 but if there is a good sign and you see that full  24 moon, crispy, really cold, and we would go, yes.  And  25 then it will last 'til anywhere from January to March.  26 Q   Is this -- this is week-end trapping, I guess?  You  27 set your line on a Saturday and go back a week later?  28 A  Well, if you disturb it everyday, pick up your scent  29 and you won't catch anything anyway.  Visit it once a  30 week, yes.  31 Q   My question to you a minute ago is what's the income  32 that you obtain from trapping over these years.  33 A   I wouldn't know because I never added that down.  We  34 usually just -- my boys would skin it and we would  35 sell it in the Hudson Bay in Hazelton, which we would  36 receive anywhere from $45 to $50 for each one.  And  37 just this year we got about 7 of them.  3 8 THE COURT:  7?  39 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  4 0 MR. PLANT:  41 Q   So 3 or $400 for the pelts this year?  42 A   Yes.  I'm not the only one trapping there, I might  43 say.  I am working on one side of a little stream, a  44 little creek, we call it Xsi gwin heitxit, and on the  45 other side my grandfather, Geoffrey, was work that.  46 And now, I think, their boys are working that area.  47 And not only that, Richard and what's his name there, 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 THE  10 THE  11 THE  12 MR.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31 THE  32 THE  33 MR.  34 THE  35 MR.  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4870  the brothers that are living in Kigwanga work the  other parts.  Q   That's Richard Morgan and Willis?  A   No, not Willis.  It would be Raymond.  Q   Are these Wallace's sons?  A   Yes.  Like I said, they got every right to be there  because through amnigwootxw, their father's side.  Q   Right.  Could I have the name of the creek, please?  TRANSLATOR: I'm looking for it.  560.  REGISTRAR:  560.  COURT:  Thank you.  PLANT:  Q   Now, you told us about a time when your -- well, I  should -- when a lady named Agnus Sutton used to come  and pick berries at Wilson Creek.  A   Yes.  Q   Do you remember telling us about that?  She came from  Cedarvale?  A   Yes.  Q   And you said she was quite a high chief lady, she had  the name Ax goot'?  A  Ax goot', yes.  Q   A-x, underlined, g, underlined, o-o-t'.  Do you recall  what her clan was?  A   The Frog, Ganeda.  Q   And is Ax goot' the name of a house or what house is  Ax goot'?  She belongs to Wii hlengwax.  I'm sorry?  I didn't hear that.  Wii hlengwax.  76. Thank you.  On the plaintiffs' list.  Thank you.  A  COURT:  PLANT:  WITNESS  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  You told us that she came to pick berries at a place  which you called Win luumesxw.  A  Win luumesxw, yes.  That's a berry patch.  Q   And my spelling of that is w-i-n, 1-u-u-m-e-s-x-w.  Q   Can you tell me what those words mean in Gitksan?  A  Win luumesxw?  Q   Yes.  A   Just place where you see a red rock on the side of the  mountain and take a picture.  It's a nice bright rusty  red colour.  It's -- it is described how it looks  like, Win luumesxw.  It's a red rock on the side of  the mountain. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34 THE  COURT  35 THE  TRANS  36 THE  COURT  37 MR.  PLANT  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  4871  You told us that the name for another berry picking  place on the Wilson Creek territory is Win luu gan.  Win luu gan.  At one time they burned that area and  there was just a clump of trees in the middle where  they didn't burn, so they described it as how it  looked like.  It never burned around a certain area,  so they call it Win luu gan.  I have that as w-i-n, 1-u-u, g, underlined, a-n.  Now, at another point in your evidence you told us  about the name of a berry called 'mii gan?  'Mii gan.  Is that -- I may be quite wrong in assuming this.  Is  the gan, the g-a-n, part of that connection with the  name of the berry picking ground, or are they quite  different words?  No, it's just how they taste, woody. What they are  trying to say -- it's not that awful, but it's sour.  It grows amongst the underbrush where its never been  burned or anything, then you find them growing there  and the taste is sour. It's bitter. Lots of seeds.  What does that word gan mean?  Wood.  That's what I described, the berry, 'mii gan,  mean berries grow in bushes, woody area.  Okay.  And the other place I wanted to ask you about a  berry picking place was Wilp amt'uuts.  Yes, that's -- what that describes is they have a  berry patch there and they would then make these  lean-to, say, or shelters for themselves they build  out of these burned wood trees that were available.  That's what amt'uuts mean, already burned.  Wilp means  house.  Yes.  Or something like that.  :  Can I have the spelling of that one please.  LATOR: It's 561 on the word list.  :  Thank you.  Now, I am going to ask you some questions again about  Exhibit 349, which is a map of your territories you  described in your evidence.  Yes.  When you were answering Mr. Grant's questions, you put  a "S" on the map at this upper part of the Wilson  Creek territory, which you described as a place to  hunt goats above Wilson Creek.  Yes, Spaiyt muxw.  That I have as S-p-a-i-y-t, m-u-x-w.  Now, on this 1  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  4872  map, which is Exhibit 349, you have put Spaiyt muxw  between two other places on the map.  It runs right along this boundary here.  That's what I  said when I put it there.  It should be right on that  boundary.  It is between Siiyuum and the place at the top of the  map.  Yes, between there.  It's just two little bumps like  that.  That's why it is called Spaiyt muxw.  Like two  little ears sitting around Kitwanga area there, and it  really describes -- looks like two ears pointing up.  The reason I am asking you that is I am having trouble  following part of the description of the boundaries of  your territory which is in the affidavit at Tab 4 of  your binder of documents.  Now, I am referring you to  a document that's been marked as Exhibit 352,  paragraph 5.  And if we have Exhibit 349 there also,  about -- on page 2 of the affidavit I would like to  start at about 9 lines down.  Where it starts Wilson Creek.  That's right.  Now, just before that in the two lines  before that it says:  "From here the boundary continues north along  the height of land west of Xsa Gwin Goohl".  Xsa Gwin Goohl is it?  Well, I haven't pronounced it very well, but the word  X-s-a, G-w-i-n, G-o-o-h-1, which I understand to be  the name for Wilson Creek.  Yes.  So the boundary is going along the height of land west  of Wilson Creek, going north and east of another creek  or a tributary of another creek to include Sii yuun.  Uh-huh.  Do you see that?  Yes.  So when it says:  "Unnamed peak on government maps about 12  miles north of Sagat."  Yes.  If we look at Exhibit 349, there is Sagat and then up  north -- off to the north further up the boundary is  Sii yuun?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  47  4873  And then it says Ha hlelpwit.  Ha hlelpwit, yes.  It's down below here.  Well, that's where my question is.  Because Ha  hlelpwit is marked at the extreme top of the  territory.  Yes.  On Exhibit 349.  Uh-huh.  Do you see that?  Yes.  And if you read on in the description in paragraph 5,  Mr. Mathews, I think you will find that paragraph 5  says that Spaiyt muxw is on the other side of Ha  hlelpwit, after Ha helpwit.  Well, this is one of the difficulties I was talking  about.  If you were talking to other chiefs there,  they would know exactly where you are.  Especially if we were out there.  But the problem  comes when you try and put these things --  On maps, yes.  And also when you try and put these things into words.  Yes, it's harder to put them into -- we had a video  taping, we could just point them right out.  Okay.  So now then what I guess we are stuck with is  your visual recollection?  Yes.  And that is, if you're looking north and look at this  place we have been talking about, you would be looking  at the tops of some mountains, and the mountains would  start with Sii yuun?  Yes.  And then Spaiyt muxw?  Yes.  And then Ha hlelpwit?  You are lining them up perfectly, Ha hlelpwit, Spaiyt  muxw, and then you go over and then Ha hlelpwit.  Like  the two peaks would be here and then you go over and  then you would get to Ha hlelpwit.  Is Ha hlelpwit a peak or a valley or some other --  It's a mountain.  It's a high, high, high mountain.  That's why they call it razor, because it's quite  sharp in edges.  That's a description of it, Ha  hlelpwit.  It's like a razor.  Would it be fair to say that as far as you are  concerned, based on your knowledge, that the boundary  in this part of your Wilson Creek territory is really  the height of land as it goes around the top of Wilson 1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41 MR.  GRANT  42 MR.  PLANT  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  4874  Creek?  Yes, it includes -- like I said, if we say we are  going there -- or goat -- close to goats in that area  along the height of the land, and the peaks of the  mountains and it comes back.  It's just -- it is  pretty hard to follow, like you said, and descriptions  are hard to describe.  You'd appreciate it if you were  there.  It's really nice.  You could distinguish the  markings, our boundaries, how far they go and they  extend.  Well, you have just mentioned the goat hunting, which  you described in your evidence, and in your evidence  you told us of a goat hunting trip that took place  about two years ago?  Yes.  Was that the first time that you have been up there  hunting goats?  No.  I have been here numbers of numbers of times,  yes .  I'm sorry?  I have been up here before.  On this trip that you went up there about two years  ago, you went with quite a few people.  I won't ask  you to repeat all their names, but it included your  brother and his sons and your sons and some other  people?  Yes.  When you have gone up there before, is it quite common  to take a large expedition of people up there?  It is, yes.  And is this an overnight camping trip --  No, this takes a week.  This is a week.  It looks so easy on the map, but going over big  mountains and over the next one and over.  How many goats were killed on that expedition?  This one?  The one that you told us about a couple of years ago.  9.  What was the last expedition before that?  :  Which he had been on?  The last expedition that you had been on.  In the one you just described, we got 9 on that one.  And before that, sometime before that, you have been  up there hunting goats?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  4875  How many years before --  Before that it was just about three of us, four of us  went up at that time, and it was just a quick trip we  had, you might say.  We only spent three days.  And when was that trip?  And that was a year before this one.  What I am  talking -- when I am talking about three, it occurred  after.  You see, the one I described where I went  hunting was two years ago, the one I am talking about  is three years ago.  The smaller expedition was three years ago?  Yes.  And how many goats were killed on that expedition?  There were only two.  How about the year before that?  Did you go hunting  the year before that?  Yes, but I -- the bigger the group the more you would  take.  The group is no more than what I described  there.  So would it be fair to say that the trip two years ago  that took a week was a pretty special expedition?  Yes.  I have no -- Actually I do have a couple of short  questions to ask.  Mr. Mathews, I am instructed that there is good  moose hunting in the Cranberry River Valley.  Have you  ever been up there to hunt for moose?  Which Cranberry are you talking about here, the  berries or the river or --  It's a river that the government maps refer to as  Cranberry River.  It's north of Kitwanga, some miles  north of Kitwanga.  It's along that Highway 37 you are talking about?  Yes.  North of Kitwancool.  No, I haven't been up there.  Okay.  Have you hunted moose on the Wilson Creek  territory?  Yes.  Are there good moose hunting places there?  There is some good place, yes.  That's why we are  quite concerned about the log.  There is a little lake  there and it -- you might say that's the most habitat.  They hang around that lake, yes.  That's because moose like to eat the underbrush and  aspen and poplars?  Yes.  But that's the kind of thing that grows up after 4876  1 clear-cut logging, isn't it?  2 A   Not too many.  You get all kinds of rubbish, bush  3 country, and these -- the ones that grow before  4 clear-cut, they are quite separately.  And when you  5 clear-cut they just bush, can't run through it.  If  6 you ever went to a clear-cut where it grow naturally,  7 you can't make it through there with all the  8 underbrush.  And it's no more moose country because  9 when they are with the other species, they are spread  10 and it's more -- it's better for them to have it  11 rather than this skimpy little brush, twigs you are  12 talking about.  13 Q   You wouldn't agree with me if I were to suggest that  14 open country after a clear-cut is some of the best  15 moose hunting country there was?  16 A   If I was hunting -- you wouldn't stand in open, would  17 try to run for cover.  That's what I am saying, there  18 is no more coverage there for them to hide in.  It's  19 just out in the open.  They don't do that.  20 MR. PLANT:   I am going change the subject at this point, My  21 Lord.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  We'll adjourn 'til two o 'clock.  23  24 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS)  25  26  27 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  2 8 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  2 9 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  30 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  31  32  33 LORI OXLEY  34 OFFICIAL REPORTER  35 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  4 4        (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO LUNCH BREAK)  45  46 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  47 THE COURT:  Well, where are your learned friends, Mr. Plant? 4877  1 MR. PLANT:  Oh, My Lord, all of my learned friends are here.  2 No, I'm sorry --  3 THE COURT:  Well, we are a minute early actually.  Will you  4 accept a bench brief, Mr. Macaulay?  5 We will adjourn for a moment then I guess.  6 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  7  8        (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A BRIEF RECESS)  9  10        (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO A BRIEF RECESS)  11  12 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  13 THE COURT: Mr. Plant.  14 MR. PLANT:  Yes, My Lord.  One matter of housekeeping, is the  15 term I think we use, I have set down an application  16 under Rule 28 which I had in the praecipe asked to be  17 returned on Wednesday, which would be the 23rd of  18 March, and my friend Mr. Grant has corresponded with  19 me and asked that the application be argued on the  20 25th which is Friday.  I'm content to accept his  21 request, subject to Your Lordship's convenience of  22 course, My Lord.  I'm anxious, however, that the  23 matter be argued and -- well, at least be argued on  24 Friday and perhaps it could be dealt with first thing  25 Friday morning if that suits Your Lordship's  26 convenience and subject to my friend's convenience.  27 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, I'm as conveniently here on Friday as on  28 Wednesday so I'd be glad to hear you then.  Is it  29 something that's going to take some time on my part to  30 answer whatever question is raised by your motion?  31 MR. PLANT:  The question, as far as I'm concerned, My Lord, is  32 whether the prerequisites for an order under the rule  33 have been established, and it won't be necessary to  34 achieve that to go through a lengthy list of questions  35 outlining the kind of information that we would like.  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37 MR. PLANT:  But it may take sometime to satisfy Your Lordship  38 that the prerequisites of the rule have been  39 satisfied.  40 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I suppose you're seeking an answer  41 that will be available to you during the period when  42 we're not sitting then?  4 3 MR. PLANT:  Yes, My Lord.  44 THE COURT: Well, if you think it's something that I can dispose  45 of with one of my famous orals, that may be possible.  46 I'm not sure I'd be able to deal with it after Friday.  47 I'm here Monday and Tuesday, but I have a fair number 4878  1 of things to look after and then I'm gone for two and  2 a half weeks.  3 MR. PLANT:  I'm sure my friend is planning on going north  4 Friday.  Well —  5 THE COURT:  I wasn't suggesting that we argue it Monday or  6 Tuesday.  As I say, I'm just saying if I can't deal  7 with it on a normal judgment on Friday I may not get  8 to it in time for you people to have the benefit.  9 MR. PLANT:  I would prefer to deal with the matter Wednesday  10 if -- given those logistical constraints.  11 THE COURT:  What's the problem with Wednesday, Mr. Grant?  12 MR. GRANT:  Well, first of all, when it was sent to me my friend  13 suggested Wednesday or Friday and I concurred with the  14 Friday.  The problem with Wednesday is quite simply  15 this, My Lord, is that both this witness and the next  16 witness have other commitments.  We wish, if at all  17 possible, to avoid having to -- the costs of having --  18 they've been here now for some period of time, both  19 witnesses, the cost of having them going back north  2 0 and coming back down.  We've anticipated -- I  21 consulted with other counsel for the plaintiffs at  22 noon hour, we anticipate that if we have this matter  23 heard on the Friday that that will give everybody  24 ample opportunity to complete the evidence of this and  25 the next witness.  2 6 THE COURT:  All right.  27 MR. GRANT:  And I have no objection to it going ahead on the  2 8 Friday morning.  I'm concerned though with the  29 interruption of either this or the subsequent witness  30 because of other commitments and logistical problems  31 that they have had to face in terms of being required  32 to attend court, and I've had to deal with employers  33 and other persons and it's very problematic, so I'd  34 like to —  35 THE COURT:  Let's set it for Friday and we'll do the best we  36 can --  37 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  38 THE COURT:  — Friday morning.  I take it you want Friday  39 morning not Friday afternoon?  40 MR. PLANT:  Friday morning is —  41 MR. GRANT:  Well, if — let me suffice to say this.  I'm  42 anticipating if the next witness is finished on  43 Thursday, that's fine.  If it has to go into Friday  44 afternoon we're prepared to deal with it on Friday  45 afternoon.  46 MR. PLANT: Well, no, My Lord, I want the application returnable  47 Friday morning.  I don't want to be in the situation 4879  1 of at quarter to four on Friday afternoon facing a  2 three-week adjournment without this matter even having  3 been argued.  That's why I did take the trouble --  4 THE COURT:  Let's decide on Thursday whether it will be Friday  5 morning or Friday afternoon.  6 Go ahead, Mr. Plant.  Yes.  7 MR. PLANT:  8 Q   Mr. Mathews, when you were answering Mr. Grant's  9 questions concerning pine mushrooms you told us about  10 an expression which your grandfather taught you which  11 was quite lengthy and had a meaning.  Roughly  12 speaking, it began with your words your territory is  13 not always flat?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And you used a phrase Ama gyaa'hi, A-m-a g-y-a-a-'-h.  16 Did you recognize the phrase from my pronunciation?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And I believe you told us that the phrase means  19 "taking care"?  20 A   Looking after, showing ownership, and a -- what I was  21 trying to say there is, yes, look after in the  22 ownership way.  Don't let anybody get on it or destroy  23 it you might say.  24 Q   Is it the same thing as owning in Gitksan?  25 A   Yes.  It -- whatever you phrase it, yes, Ama gyaa't  26 means look after, not in the general sense of care  27 keeping, but if your mother ever told you when you  28 were a small child "Don't dirty your plants.  Look  29 after it.", in that sense, it's yours, look after it.  30 Q   When the Gitksan use -- want to use the term that we  31 have in English "owning" or "ownership", is that the  32 expression that is used?  33 A   Yes, but I think I've said it.  I don't know.  What I  34 said there was Ama gyaa'dihl kyansim, look after, it's  35 yours.  36 MR. PLANT:   I think there was something added to the phrase  37 that I was using.  Perhaps I could have the spelling  38 of that?  39 THE TRANSLATOR: Ama gyaa'dihl, A-m-a g-y-a-a-'-d-i-h-1.  40 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, d-i-h —  41 THE TRANSLATOR: — 1.  42 THE COURT:  1.  43 THE TRANSLATOR: K-y-a-n-s-i-m.  4 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 5 MR. PLANT:  46 Q   And that expression means look after it, it's yours?  47 A   Yes. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  MR.  PLANT  8  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  PLANT  13  Q  14  A  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  PLANT  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  PLANT  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  PLANT  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  MR.  PLANT  37  38  THE  COURT  39  40  41  THE  WITNE  42  43  MR.  PLANT  44  Q  45  A  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  PLANT  4880  In -- when we were discussing, or rather when you were  testifying about Sand Lake, you spoke of another  little lake which you called Round Lake?  Yes.  And that's to the west of Sand Lake?  Yes, past I think.  :   The -- on the map which I showed you earlier, which  appears at tab 15 of my document book, I -- perhaps I  should ask to have your copy put before you.  Thank  you, Madam Registrar.  :  Did you call it Round Lake or Ground Lake?  I heard Round.  Yes.  R-o-u-n-d.  Yes.  Thank you.  Does Your Lordship have Sand Lake?  Yes.  On this map there's a lake to the left or west of Sand  Lake which is marked here as Gainor, G-a-i-n-o-r,  Lake.  Is that the lake that you were talking about?  When was this map printed?  Quite recently I think, but I don't know the year.  The -- how it was known to us, at the time I've always  known it as Round Lake.  I never seen this one before,  but it's just past this Sand Lake.  Yeah, it's just  past there.  So the lake which you know of as Round Lake is this  body of water that on this map is marked Gainor Lake?  The one I was talking is right side by side.  This one  looks like a little over because when you just pass  this road you could see it in behind.  This red one's  a road I presume?  :   Yes, I would make that assumption myself at any  rate.  :  The highway appears to divorce the westerly tip of  that lake from the main body of the lake.  Does the  highway --  3S:   That lake just tapers off, Your Lordship, and the  road goes between there.  The road goes between the two lakes?  Yes.  :  Well, that wouldn't be Gainor Lake then.  :  Well, the map doesn't have any other lake.  There 1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  6  THE  WITNE  7  THE  COURT  8  9  MR.  PLANT  10  THE  COURT  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  PLANT  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  PLANT  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  PLANT  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4881  may be another lake there, but that doesn't appear  on --  I thought that I saw a little lake there or I think  I see a little lake there which is either the source  or the result of Poopard(ph) Creek.  S:   Yes, it would be around that area.  Does it not run into a little lake which could be  Gainor Lake?  Well, I'll --  I'm not sure which way the -- I guess the waters are  flowing westerly in Poopard Lake, are they, or creek?  Yes, there is immediately to the right of the word  "Gainor" a body of water.  Possibly, yes.  Well, there's a small road and then a body of water.  All right.  But I -- my concern was not so much with what --  well, at this point my concern is to find out if I'm  in the right general area.  :  Yes.  And I understand, Mr. Mathews, if I could just ask you  this again, speaking generally when you're on the  highway, Sand Lake at one point when you're near the  west end of Sand Lake, Sand Lake is on your right and  the lake that you know as Round Lake is on your left?  If you're standing at where this highway is, yes.  Right.  Now, in your evidence you referred to this  lake by its Gitksan name also?  Yes.  Dam alaalaa'?  Alaalaa'.  Dam alaalaa'?  Echoes the sounds.  I have that as D-a-m a-1-a-a-l-a-a-'.  Does that have  a meaning in Gitksan?  Yes, picks up sounds, echoes.  Oh, I see.  Now, turning to your -- turning to your  book of documents at tab 4, you may need that map  again, but let's just focus here.  Looking at  paragraph 12 of the affidavit which has been marked  Exhibit 352, paragraph 12 begins:  "The boundary of the Tsihl Gwellii territory  can be described as follows."  And then it says: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  4882  "Starting at the west end of Sand Lake here  the boundary runs along the creek outlet of Sand  Lake to about midway between Sand Lake and Dam  Gwihl Alaltxwit." A-1-a-l-t-x-w-i-t "(Gainor  Lake)."  Now, do you know of a lake that has that name Dam  Gwihl Alaltxwit?  A   No.  That's just mixed in there looks like it.  Q   Excuse me?  A   Git axsol and Dam alaalaa', the one dividing.  Q   But you don't know of the name, and that name Dam  Gwihl Alaltxwit doesn't strike any chords in your  memory?  A   No.  There is a Gil gal axwt on our territory right  beside the -- the mountain I just described a while  ago that Sganism habasxw, and then Gil gal axwt, they  might have mixed them two together --  Q   When —  A   -- because this is Gil gal axwt.  Q   So the -- looking at Exhibit 366 (e) up near the north  part --  A   Yes.  Q   -- there's that -- the mountain or mountain ridge  Sganism habasxw?  A   Sganism habasxw.  Yes.  Q   And the lake is referred to here in paragraph 12 of  your father's affidavit as Dam Gwihl Alaltxwit you say  is up near here?  A   Yeah, Gil gal axwt is here beside it.  Q   Beside the --  A   Sganism habasxw.  GRANT:  I don't think he's referring to a lake though.  WITNESS:   No.  GRANT:  He said the name, the name, but not the lake name.  WITNESS:   There's no lake.  PLANT:  Q   I'm sorry if I misheard you.  What kind of geographic  feature is it?  A   It's a -- like a little hill, mountain, with trees  growing around spread apart, looks like quills, so  they call it Gil gal axwt.  Q   Is the place called Dam Gwihl Alaltxwit or just Gwihl  Alaltxwit?  A   No, just Gil gal axwt.  Q   The word "dam", spelled d-a-m in that affidavit, that 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7 MR.  PLANT  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15 THE  COURT  16  17 MR.  PLANT  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  4883  means lake?  Yes.  So the only place called Gwihl Alaltxwit that you know  of on your territory is a small hill or a hill up  north in the northern part of your territory?  Yes.  :   Now, I want to ask you to look at some other  documents.  Yes.  I'm afraid that the transcript at  some point in this trial is going to start showing  that I know what -- that I actually am speaking words  that people can understand because the reporter's  getting them down, but Miss Stephens has made sure  that I don't have that illusion.  Well, let me refer you to another area.  :  No lawyer is a hero to a court reporter.  I should  add or judge.  The area I wanted to ask you about now Mr. Mathews  was, very briefly, was a feast that you've told us  about that is held in Kitwanga when the snow first  starts to fall in December, and one of the terms that  you used to describe it when you were trying to  describe it for the court's benefit was a sort of a  thanksgiving feast.  You recall giving that evidence?  Yes, it was similar to that I said.  Yes.  And that's a feast hosted by the wolf clan?  Yes.  Do the eagle clan members participate in the hosting  of that feast or is it just done by the wolf clan?  We're always together as one.  Yes.  Do the frog clan people in Kitwanga have a similar  feast or is that just a feast that is held by the  wolves and the eagles?  They're the guests.  The wolves are the guests.  The frogs are the guests?  Yes.  Do the frogs hold a similar feast for the wolves and  the eagles?  No.  Now, Mr. Mathews, I'm going to show you a photograph  of a totem pole which is -- I think should be familiar  to you.  I have a copy, unfortunately just a  photocopy, for Your Lordship and I want you to look at  that photograph that I've placed in front of you in  conjunction with Exhibit 359, and do you recognize the  pole shown in the photograph that I've just given you?  Yes. 1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  PLANT  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  PLANT  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  MR.  PLANT  10  11  12  THE  REGIS  13  14  15  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  19  20  21  MR.  PLANT  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  MR.  PLANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  PLANT  35  THE  COURT  36  37  THE  TRANS  38  THE  COURT  39  THE  TRANS  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  PLANT  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  4884  359 is what tab, please?  It wasn't a tab in the document book.  Oh, all right.  Now, is the pole shown in the photograph which I've  just provided to you the same pole as the pole on the  left of the three poles in Exhibit 359?  The shorter one?  This one?  :   Yes.  Could the photograph which I've provided --  which I've just produced be marked as the next  exhibit, My Lord?  ?RAR: Exhibit 369.  (EXHIBIT 369:  Photograph of totem pole)  :  My Lord, dare I say that I don't know if this has  been disclosed before.  I'm not taking any objection,  but just in terms of -- my friend made a big issue  regarding photographs and I just want it to be clear  that it works both ways.  There are several hundred photographs on the  plaintiffs' list and I didn't take the time to see if  this one was one of them.  The -- could I have the exhibit, Madam Registrar?  Could you identify the crests for me that appear, or  for the court rather, that appear on what is now  Exhibit 369 starting from the top down?  That's the Hawaaw'.  The animal on the very top of the pole?  Yes.  Yes.  I'm sorry?  That's the lion.  Yes.  All right.  The problem is I don't have the  spellings of these words and I have to find them.  LATOR: 359.  :  359?  LATOR: Uh-huh.  :  Thank you.  And immediately below the --  The pointing one, pointing down with its tail  extending through the Hawaaw', that's a wolf.  Yes?  Tsiipxwa smex, that ensnared bear, the wolf, and the  ensnared bear. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  PLANT  32  THE  COURT  33  34  MR.  PLANT  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  MR.  PLANT  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  THE  COURT  4885  So there are five crests on the pole.  The top crest  is the Hawaaw', then there's a wolf --  Yes.  -- then the ensnared bear, and then the wolf, another  wolf rather, and then the --  Ensnared bear.  -- ensnared bear at the bottom?  Yes.  In Exhibit 359 the pole is shown, appears to be  anyway, in front of a house?  Yes.  Is that the location of the pole today, and maybe I  should ask you this first:  Is the pole that we've  been talking about, is it still standing today?  Yes.  Does it still stand in front of a house or is it  some -- in some different place?  It's been moved.  Yes.  Do you recall when it was moved?  No.  That happened before your time?  Yes.  :  My Lord, just for the record the two wolves that he  referred to are the two downwards pointing animals.  It may be hard for you to see on the photocopy the  ensnared bear that's up above because it's quite dark.  :  Yes.  :  But both wolves are the animals with the tails in  the -- towards the sky that he pointed to.  Well, the second one down --  Perhaps --  -- that looks to me like the hind legs at the  bottom, but the face looks like its looking downwards.  I'll hand the exhibit up to Your Lordship if that  will assist.  Well, the second one from the bottom is clearly an  animal.  I take it that it's a wolf facing downwards.  Yes, but with the lighter colour it looks like its  legs are wrapped around the pole.  Yes, but I have that as a ensnared bear, is it?  No.  No, the pole at the bottom or the crest at the bottom  is the ensnared bear and the crest above the wolf is  also a ensnared bear; is that correct, Mr. Mathews?  The black one.  :  Well — 1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  MR.  PLANT  6  THE  COURT  7  8  MR.  PLANT  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  13  14  15  16  MR.  PLANT  17  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  PLANT  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  PLANT  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  PLANT  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  29  30  31  MR.  GRANT  32  33  MR.  PLANT  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  PLANT  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4886  I just wonder if the witness maybe should mark the  exhibit.  I had five crests, a lion, a wolf, an ensnared bear,  a wolf, and an ensnared bear.  That's correct.  But the way you're describing it now is there not  only four crests?  Well, does Your Lordship still have the lion at the  top?  Oh, wait a minute.  I see another one here.  I'm  sorry, I see what you're saying now.  Yes, I couldn't  see that one.  So we have a lion at the top, a wolf  facing downwards, and then a bear, and the bear seems  to me to be -- its body seems to be facing upwards,  but its head is facing downwards; is that --  Well, the -- what my friend I think was trying to  explain was that, firstly, immediately below the lion  there is a crest which is the wolf.  Yes.  And the wolf is looking downwards --  Yes.  -- and has his tail --  Yes.  -- as Mr. Mathews said, sticking up  Emerging from the far side of the lion.  I think I  have it now.  I had that head below the top wolf  belonging to the next crest, but it obviously is not.  I see in the picture it belongs to the wolf and it is  indeed facing downwards.  So the next one down is a  bear, but I don't see the head of that bear.  :  Probably the witness could demonstrate.  He knows  this better than anyone.  :  And Your Lordship is unable to see the head of  the —  :  Top bear.  -- the top bear.  Perhaps you could draw an arrow or  some other identification on this to locate the head  of the upper of the two ensnared bears?  This particular photograph, this totem pole here, at  one time used to be at a doorway, that's why there's  this part of it, and it's been reinforced by the pole  here now.  That's at the very bottom?  Yes.  Yes?  And this is the head of it, right, there's the ears 4887  1 here, and the head goes around, the nose here, see.  2 Q   Okay.  You've drawn a sort of a -- you've put an  3 outline around the --  4 A   There's the ear.  5 MR. GRANT:  He's outlined the bottom bear.  6 THE WITNESS:   This is the head, the eyes.  7 MR. PLANT:  8 Q   Could you identify the head of the bear that's up  9 higher --  10 A   This one —  11 Q   -- on the pole?  12 A   -- they're quite large, the ears here, and the eyes  13 here.  14 THE COURT:  What is this that's behind the tail of the —  15 THE WITNESS:   That's the rest of the body of this bear.  The  16 front paws are in there.  17 MR. PLANT:  18 Q   Is that the tail sticking up between the paws of the  19 bear?  20 A   This wolf's tail sticks up into there.  21 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  22 MR. GRANT:  Possibly the witness could just put a "B" beside  23 those two so that it's clear on the record what he's  24 been pointing to?  25 THE WITNESS:   "B" for the heads?  26 MR. GRANT:  Yes, so you can see the heads of the two bears.  27 He's marked a "B" on the right of the photograph to  28 show the heads of the two bears.  2 9 MR. PLANT:  30 Q   I want to show you another photograph, Mr. Mathews,  31 which is also a photograph of a totem pole, and I --  32 again I have just a photocopy at the moment for Your  33 Lordship.  You recognize what's shown in that  34 photograph?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And is that the -- is that a picture of the photograph  37 of the totem pole which is the middle pole on Exhibit  38 359?  39 A   Yes.  40 MR. PLANT:   May that be marked as the next exhibit, please?  41 THE REGISTRAR: 370.  42 MR. GRANT:  No objection.  43  44 (EXHIBIT 370: Photograph of a totem pole)  45  4 6 MR. PLANT:  47       Q   May I have the exhibit again?  Thank you. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11 MR.  12  13  14  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  2 7 MR.  2 8 MR.  2 9 MR.  30  31 THE  32 MR.  33  34  35  36  37 MR.  38  39 THE  4 0 THE  41 THE  42 THE  43 THE  44 THE  45 THE  4 6 MR.  47  A  A  GRANT  PLANT  Q  4888  Mr. Mathews, has the totem pole in Exhibit 370  also been moved?  Yes.  It's where its original place now.  If the  highway's here, then that's where it is today.  It was  moved over.  Was it moved to make it more readily visible from the  highway or the railway?  No.  When this old original picture, these old  pictures, the bank -- the river has washed the bank  away.  :  He's referring to Exhibit 359 when he referred to  the old original picture and when he was pointing to  the highway or if the highway was there, he was  pointing to the bottom of Exhibit 370, My Lord.  A  Q  A  Now, near the top of the pole, and this is really the  reason I wanted to use this photograph, near the top  of the pole in Exhibit 370 are some crests.  Perhaps  starting from the top down, can you identify the  object at the very top of the pole?  This one at the very top is the wolf.  Yes. Now, immediately below the wolf there's a face  and then I think the balance of the rest of a crest.  Can you identify that?  Yes, this is that lady we call Biis hoon with her two  cubs, one under each arm here.  Let's —  Can you give a number for that?  Oh, yes, I wanted to ask you -- do you have a  spelling for Biis hoon?  TRANSLATOR: 4 84.  PLANT:  Is the totem pole in Exhibit 370 still standing?  This?  You're referring to this?  This one.  This one's still standing.  Yes.  Perhaps you could show His Lordship again where the  wolf and the --  Yes, I see the wolf.  That's Biis hoon.  From there to there?  Yes, and there's the two little cubs.  And her legs and feet?  Yes.  Thank you.  PLANT  GRANT  PLANT  Q  A  Q  A  PLANT:  COURT:  WITNESS:  COURT:  WITNESS:  COURT:  WITNESS:  COURT:  PLANT:  Q   Now, you've told us that the bear cubs were one of the 1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  4889  crests that you could put on a pole, but that you  couldn't put the bear itself on a pole because the  bear was outside the territory?  I was talking about the grizzly bear.  Yes, not the ensnared bear?  No.  A different bear?  Yes.  Why are the bear cubs not also outside the territory?  Because that's -- if you follow tradition, your  children are on the mother's side.  The bear cubs' mother was Biis hoon?  Yes.  Now, I want to show you Exhibit 360, which you've seen  before?  Yes.  And that is a picture of the Hawaaw' on top of a box.  Is that sculpture or object still standing in the  village?  No, we had one big fire in the village one time.  It  started right at Fred Johnson's old house and it swept  everything, burnt everything from there down close to  where our church stays today, and everything was burnt  down.  There was a big wind and it just burnt up  everything.  When was this fire?  I forgot the date, but there was a big fire.  That's  before our -- any fire-fighting outfit would be there  so --  Was it during your lifetime though?  Yes.  Was it 5 years ago or 30 years ago?  No, it would be somewhere -- 25, somewhere in there.  Quite a few years ago then?  Yes.  Now, I want to refer you to tab 17 in my book of  documents.  Now, the first page at tab 17, Mr.  Mathews, is a photocopy of a title page of a book  called "Totem Poles of the Gitksan Upper Skeena River,  British Columbia, by Marius, M-a-r-i-u-s, Barbeau,  B-a-r-b-e-a-u."  You're familiar with that book, Mr.  Mathews?  No, never seen this book.  Have you not -- you're not familiar with Marius  Barbeau's book on the totem poles?  No, I'm not familiar with Barbeau's book on totem  poles, no. 1 MR.  PLANT  2  3  4  5  6  7 MR.  GRANT  8  9 MR.  PLANT  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  4890  :   Well, let me turn to page 130 of this extract or  page 130 -- yes, 130 and 131, and under the heading  "Origin" at the bottom of page 130 and carrying onto  page 131 is -- are you familiar with the text set out  there?  And by "familiar", I mean have you seen this  text before?  :  What, the whole section on "Origin"; is that what  you're referring to?  Yes.  I might have seen it, this, yes, but I haven't seen  the whole book.  You're aware that Dr. Barbeau did research in the  Gitksan area and interviewed people in the old days  about adaawk and histories?  I've heard about it, yes.  And you've had an opportunity to look at some of the  written notes that Dr. Barbeau prepared?  I have no interest in it, in his work, no, but I've  heard and seen some of his work.  Yes.  Well, my question is not so much whether you're  interested in it, but whether you've seen it before.  And you've seen it before?  Yes.  Like he had no right to do this, but he still  did it.  Now, if you could look at page 131, the paragraph that  begins "The origin of the mountain lion crest"; you've  seen that paragraph before?  Yes, I've seen this.  Yes.  But that lion belongs to  us, it doesn't belong to Barbeau whatsoever.  But the point I only want to make, Mr. Mathews, is  that you've seen that and you've seen that text  before?  Parts of it, yes.  And in particular, have you seen the paragraph that I  just asked you to look at about the origin of the  mountain lion crest?  How I know about this paragraph, I go and make some  speeches in school regarding -- they question me on  this, that's how I know about these types.  They  question us on our Hawaaw'.  Is the paragraph that I've referred you to consistent  with what you have been told about the Hawaaw'?  Consistent with what I'm told about Hawaaw'?  You mean  our adaawk?  Yes.  Yes, some of it is right, yes. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  4891  Well, could you point to any part of it that's  incorrect?  Mountain lion.  It's not a mountain lion, it's a  Hawaaw'.  And it doesn't have the name of Bella Coola  on there, it just has the word "Coast".  Whereas when  we were told, it was really told that there was a  place known as Bella Coola that they recall, Git heehl  miilik'.  Git heehl miilik' they call them people.  Mr. Mathews, I want to refer you again to some of the  evidence you gave on November 4, 1985, in the trial  involving a prosecution of your father for an alleged  offence under the Fisheries Act, and I'm referring you  to page 10, line 16, where Mr. Grant asked you:  "Q    Now, I'd like to refer you again to Exhibit  12 which is the excerpt from the Barbeau  book."  And Mr. Grant said:  "     Sorry, Your Honour, but one page is  photocopied sideways.  Q    I'd refer you to page 131, which is actually  the second column on the second page, and  the third full paragraph down, talking about  the origin of the mountain lion crest and  there is a footnote, 'or puma'", p-u-m-a,  "or puma is more recent.  Now, have you read  that excerpt and I'm referring to that  paragraph before it talks -- it talks about  function?  A    The origin of the mountain lion?  Q    Yes —  A    Yes.  Q    -- that paragraph?  And, again, that's  consistent with what you were told?  A    Yes, that's right."  You were asked those questions and you gave those  answers did you, Mr. Mathews?  Yes.  What page was that please, Mr. Plant?  The extract is from page 10, My Lord.  Thank you.  My Lord, I'd ask that the -- a portion of the  extract which appears at tab 17 of the — my book of  documents be marked as the next exhibit and the THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  9  10  11 MR.  12  13 THE  14  15 THE  16 THE  17  18  19  2 0 MR.  21 THE  22  2 3 MR.  24 THE  25  26  27  28  29  3 0 MR.  31 THE  32 MR.  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4892  portion would be the first page, that  title page, and page 131, which has th  I directed Mr. Mathews' attention to  Mr. Grant?  I'm not going to object at this stag  All right.  What is it that you're s  I'm sorry, Mr. Macaulay,  I have no submissions.  All right.  What is it you're seekin  marked?  The first page that's in the extract  title page of the book, and page 131 o  Yes.  All right.  Well, they can be  then.  REGISTRAR: That will 371, My Lord.  COURT:  371.  But it seems to me that the on  should be the exhibit is the paragraph  witness has substantially adopted with  corrections.  Yes, My Lord.  Perhaps that long paragraph about th  function, yes.  Yes.  All right.  That will be Exhibit 371  Thank you.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  marked then?  MACAULAY  COURT:  PLANT:  COURT:  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  is to say, the  e paragraph that  e to that part,  eeking to have  any --  g to have  , which is the  nly.  the next exhibit  ly thing that  that the  a couple of  e origin and the  All right.  GRANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  (EXHIBIT 371:  Paragraph on page 131 of transcript  dated November 4, 1985)  That's the third full paragraph on page 131 only?  Yes.  Now, Mr. Mathews, you spoke in your evidence of a  blockade which had occurred of the railway line at  Wilson Creek.  You recall testifying about that?  It wasn't the railway line, it was the bridge,  building of the bridge.  That's what you were protesting, if I could use that  term?  Yes.  The -- you also told us that there was an agreement  made as a result of that blockade and the agreement  was made with C.N.?  Yes.  And my understanding -- well, let me suggest to you  that the agreement was made between the Canadian  National Railway Company and the Gitwingax Band of 1  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  4893  Indians as represented by the Gitwingax Band Council;  do you recall that?  Yes.  And at that time we had instructed the band  council to act on our behalf.  Yes.  And the negotiations or discussions or whatever they  were which produced the agreement involved the band  council and C.N., not yourself; is that correct?  They came to Wilson Creek at the smoke house.  Okay.  But the agreement itself that was finally  entered into was entered into with the band council;  correct?  Yes, they were acting on behalf because we told them  to.  So the band council acted on whose behalf?  The House of Tenimgyet and Ax tii hiikw.  And I'm going to show you a copy of the agreement, at  least a document which I understand is the agreement  between Canadian National Railway Company and the  Gitwingax Band of Indians.  At the top it says "This  agreement made the 28th day of June 1985".  Does that refresh your recollection, Mr. Mathews,  as to the time of this blockade?  Yes.  Would it be correct then to say that the blockade and  the discussions occurred in or about the month of June  of 1985?  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, in the spring of 1985 you were on the  band council again; is that correct?  Yes.  I'd like to direct your attention now to a document at  tab 7 of my book of documents.  Have you got that  before you?  Yes.  This purports to be a letter dated February 11, 1985,  addressed to Mr. Richard Morgan as the chief  councillor of the Gitwingax Band Council, and it's  signed by a number of people including Herbert Burke.  Did you have occasion to see this document in your  capacity as band councillor?  Yes, because we were part of the meeting when this  took place.  Yes.  And the first paragraph of the letter refers to  "proposed logging" -- well, and then in fact just  after "Dear Sir" it says "Re-proposed logging  Koonwats, K-o-o-n-w-a-t-s, Indian Reserve Number 7,  part of block B". Was the band council intending to 4894  1 conduct logging operations on Koonwats Indian Reserve  2 number 7 at this time?  3 A   Yes, see what happens we had a meeting with these  4 people and then the band council took it before the  5 chiefs and the chiefs rejected it, so this  6 particular -- this agreement never went.  It was  7 thrown out.  8 Q   The logging was never -- the logging never took place?  9 A   No, the chiefs, the hereditary chiefs of Gitwingax  10 says "No.", and it never took place.  11 Q   And that was a decision made by the hereditary chiefs  12 after the matter had been referred to them by the band  13 council?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And was there a meeting of the hereditary chiefs?  16 A   There was a grand meeting for everybody and all the  17 hereditary chiefs came and they voiced their opinion  18 and says "No."  19 Q   It was a meeting where all the villagers were invited?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And everyone had the opportunity to speak?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   It wasn't a feast?  24 A   No, this was a meeting.  25 Q   Did it take place in the community hall though?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And the chiefs were -- the hereditary chiefs were some  28 of the people who spoke?  29 A   Yes, most of them were all there, yes, and they  30 disagreed with it and --  31 Q   And was there a vote taken at the end of the meeting?  32 A   No, they just took it under advisement that it was  33 what they wanted and that's the way it was.  It was  34 put aside.  35 Q   Who was it that took it under advisement?  36 A   The council.  37 MR. PLANT:   I'd ask that this document be marked as the next  38 exhibit, My Lord?  39 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 372, tab 7.  40 THE COURT:  Well, is it still under advisement or have they  41 decided?  42 THE WITNESS:   Throw it out.  Put it on the shelf.  43 THE COURT:  On the shelf?  44 THE WITNESS:   Put it in the garbage somewhere.  45 THE COURT:  Oh, garbage.  All right.  All right.  Any objection,  46 Mr. Grant?  47 MR. GRANT:  I think he said he had seen it as I recall so — 2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  MR.  PLANT  5  6  THE  COURT  7  4895  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Exhibit 372.  :  I trust that that's the purpose my friend is putting  it in, as a document that he has seen?  :  Well, the evidence, in my submission, speaks for  itself, and goes no further than that.  : Well, are these people, the Burkes, and the Brights,  and the Dalens, and the Davis', are they Indians or  8 not Indians?  9 THE WITNESS:   Yes, they are.  10 THE COURT:  All Indians?  11 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  12 THE COURT:  And they were -- they wrote this in opposition to  13 the idea of logging?  14 THE WITNESS:   If I remember correctly, this was an application  for them to log this certain particular area and the  rest of the hereditary chiefs of the village of  Gitwingax disagreed with it so it was then --  :  All right.  : Well, perhaps I better in that case refer you, Mr.  Mathews, to the first full paragraph of the letter.  :  Just one moment.  It's clear from what the witness  has now said that the witness did not have an  opportunity to read the document and maybe rather than  having Mr. Plant summarize it or excerpt it the  witness should have an opportunity either now or at  the time of the break to read the document so he can  say whether he recognizes it because I think --  :  Well, he's already done that.  : Yes, but then now he's just described the document  and it appears quite different from what I have read  what he has just described so --  :  No, I don't think so.  What he said was there was a  proposal to log it, which I gather came from the  Gitwingax Band Council.  These people wrote objecting  and they had a meeting and the chief decided against  it.  : Yes, but he pointed to this document, My Lord, and  indicated this was the application for logging.  :  No, I think he said there was an application.  I  don't think he said this was an application, but that  may be clarified.  :  It may be that he hasn't had an opportunity to read  it and that's all I'm concerned --  :  I'm sure he hasn't, I haven't.  I've only read the  first sentence, but it's pretty obvious it's  opposition, it's not an application for logging.  :  Well, that's —  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  PLANT  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  32  THE  COURT  33  34  35  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  THE  COURT  40  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  THE  COURT  45  46  47  MR.  PLANT 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4896  THE COURT:  You can cross-examine on it.  MR. PLANT:  I'm happy to.  THE COURT:  The witness can read it as he goes along or you can  put parts of it to him, if you wish.  Before you do  that, where's the Koonwats Indian Reserve number 7?  THE WITNESS:   I think it's in Cedarvale.  THE COURT:  All right.  What do you want to ask him Mr. Plant?  MR. PLANT:  Q   Well, I wanted to suggest to you, Mr. Mathews, that  this letter is actually a letter of protest, if you  will, a letter of opposition to the logging which the  band was proposing to carry out; would you agree with  me?  A   Yes, looks like, yes.  MR. PLANT:   If you'd like to take an opportunity to read the  letter to make sure of that, please do so.  THE COURT:  Is there really anything more to it than what we've  already got?  MR. PLANT:  Well, I'm concerned about, given my friend's  sensitivity and the fact that the witness is actually  reading it at the moment, that he be given every  opportunity to ensure that he's comfortable with his  answer.  THE COURT: Well, I think if he's going to read it we'll take the  afternoon adjournment and he can do that.  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR: Is it an exhibit?  THE COURT:  Well, no, we're in the middle of that.  THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter  MR.  (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER A SHORT RECESS)  PLANT:  Q   Mr. Mathews, I want to be sure that something that 4897  1 we --  2 THE COURT:  Excuse me, Mr. Plant, before you go on, I have this  3 representation from the people of -- some of the  4 people at Gitwingax, I guess, as Exhibit 372.  5 MR. GRANT:  That's what I wanted to have clarified, is whether  6 the witness has seen this document before.  He took  7 the opportunity at the break to read it, and if he --  8 I think a simple question, has he seen it before now,  9 would suffice to clarify that.  10 THE COURT: He said he had seen it.  11 MR. GRANT:  He also said it was an application for logging.  12 That's where I think it wasn't clear.  I think all of  13 us have assumed that he has seen it, but now he's had  14 an opportunity and I think he can answer the question.  15 THE COURT:  Well, have you seen it before?  16 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  17 THE COURT:   I don't think it takes us anywhere, but we'll see.  18 MR. GRANT:  That's why I said it was — identified it as a  19 document that he had seen.  2 0 MR. PLANT:  21 Q   Mr. Mathews, I wanted to refer you back to 366 E, and  22 to the mountain -- if I can put it this way, the  23 mountain up in the north part of the Tsihl Gwellii  24 territory that had a small hill or a smaller hill  25 beside it.  And could you tell me, Mr. Mathews, what  26 is the name of that smaller hill or mountain which is  27 up north in Tsihl Gwellii?  28 A   I don't know which north you are talking about  2 9 anymore.  30 Q   Well, this arose when I was asking you some questions  31 about a place which I am going to ask the translator  32 to pronounce, a lake that appears in paragraph 12 of  33 your father's affidavit.  Could you pronounce that  34 please.  Let me bring it right around to you so you  35 don't have to read it from so far away.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  Dam gii gal axwt.  37 MR. GRANT:  Say it louder.  I didn't get it.  38 THE TRANSLATOR:  Dam gii gal axwt.  3 9 MR. PLANT:  Now, I tried to ask you whether you were familiar with  that lake name.  No, it is no lake name, no.  Now, up in the northern part of the Tsihl Gwellii  territory near the mountain or ridge which has this  name --  Sganism habasxw.  There is -- on Exhibit 366 E there is an asterisk with  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q 1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  MR.  GRANT  10  MR.  PLANT  11  12  13  14  THE  TRANS  15  MR.  PLANT  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  PLANT  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  THE  COURT  47  4898  a word which begins with "G", and I'll spell it and  then I'll ask you to pronounce it, if I may.  G-y-i-1-g, underlined, a-1'a-x-w-t-x-w-t.  Gyilgal'axwtxwt.  Is that name familiar to you, Mr. Mathews?  Yes.  What is that?  It's a little hill I was describing awhile ago.  :  My Lord, is --  :  The reason for these questions is that I'm afraid  that my pronounciation was -- before the break was not  assisting things.  But have you got both of those  words, Ms. Stephens?  LATOR:  Yes.  :  Thank you.  Does Your Lordship have the location of  the asterisk with the name?  :  Yes.  :  Just for the record, My Lord, because I'm not  certain that this question isn't being asked of the  witness, the witness pointed earlier to the other side  of Sganism habasxw when he was asked about that and  was not referred to, so that in fact in the evidence  there are two locations being given for that -- or  there may be two locations being given for that.  And  I think it would be -- my friend may not wish to raise  it, and I can deal with it on re-direct.  Well, if you were standing south of Sganism habasxw,  this mountain ridge, would the hill be on the right or  the left as you look up north towards the big  mountain?  Where is north here?  I shouldn't say it was north.  On the Exhibit 366 E  the name of this mountain appears to coincide with  what I think you earlier described as a ridge that ran  north and south.  Yes.  And if you're looking up north at the ridge, is this  hill that you've described a minute ago on the right  or the left?  If we are standing right where I am sitting here?  Yes.  Yes, it will be on the left.  On the left.  Which is where -- roughly speaking where  the asterisk is on the exhibit.  :  The asterisk means something different, doesn't it?  I'm sorry, it's on 349 that the asterisk refers to a 4899  1 bear den, does it?  2 MR. GRANT:  On this map there is no legend, as it's a draft  3 copy, so --  4 THE COURT:  So we don't know what the asterisk means.  All  5 right.  6 MR. PLANT:  7 Q   Mr. Mathews, I would like you to look at Tab 16 in my  8 book of documents.  If yours is the same as mine, it  9 purports to be a copy of a letter dated November 16,  10 1987 from the District Manager of the Ministry of  11 Forests and Lands -- Forest Service in Hazelton to a  12 party identified as the Morgans of Kitwanga.  Do you  13 see that?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Have you seen this letter before, Mr. Mathews?  16 A   No.  17 Q   When you were speaking of the material that was  18 eventually marked as Exhibit 356, and that's the  19 letter of December 3rd, 1987 to which you were one of  20 the signatories, addressed to the District Manager,  21 Ministry of Forests and Lands and so on.  Looking at  22 this letter and recalling the activity which gave rise  23 to this letter on your part, is that -- was the letter  24 which is dated November 16, 1987, was that ever shown  25 to you by Richard or Willis or Ray Morgan?  26 A   No, we just discussed it.  I said in my earlier  27 testimony when I brought this up that we had a little  28 discussion about, but I never seen the letter.  But  29 the application was certainly mentioned, yes, but I  30 never seen the letter.  31 Q   Okay.  Was it the Morgans who first drew your  32 attention to the proposed timber sale?  33 A   Yes, and my uncle, Henry Tait, Ax tii hiikw.  34 Q   And are they the people who have the registered  35 trapline for this area?  36 A   Yes, through amnigwootxw.  I earlier agreed to, yes.  37 Q   Now, I want to ask you about another place which I  38 only have the spelling for, and I -- the spelling that  39 I have is t-s-i-m, t-s-a-1-t-w-i-t.  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  I got as far as t-s-a-1-t.  41 MR. PLANT  42 THE COURT  4 3 MR. PLANT  T-w-i-t.  the first one is t-s-i-m?  Yes.  Now, perhaps I could have the translator's  44 assistance in pronouncing that, if you had an  45 opportunity to spell it.  46 THE TRANSLATOR:  Tsim tsaltwit.  4 7 MR. PLANT: 4900  1 Q   Now, having heard Ms. Stephens pronounce those words,  2 do they -- are they familiar to you?  3 A   Yes, Xsagam tsaltxwit is how we prefer it.  4 Q   Is that another name for the place which I was  5 spelling?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Perhaps I could have the name that Mr. Mathews gave.  8 THE TRANSLATOR:  I don't seem to have it on the list.  9 MR. PLANT:  10 Q   While that's being looked up, Mr. Mathews, does the  11 word Tsim, t-s-i-m, have a meaning in Gitksan?  12 A   That means creek.  13 MR. GRANT:  577.  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  577 on the word list.  15 MR. PLANT:  16 Q   Now, Ms. Stephens pronounced the name which I spelled,  17 tsim tsaltwit, and in response to that you gave us  18 another name.  Is that another name for the same  19 place?  20 A   Tsim tsaltwit is the creek.  Xsa gan tsaltxwit is in  21 the basin of the creek.  It's inside is what it says.  22 That's some of the difficulties some of our map makers  23 are making when you refer to these two little  24 statements what I made and what you made and what you  25 have described inside that territorial boundary within  26 that creek we call Xsagan tsaltxwit.  When we say  27 tsim, it's inside.  28 Q   Can you identify the location of the place that you  29 are describing on Exhibit 349, the map?  30 MR. GRANT:  The creek?  31 MR. PLANT:  I think on a map of this scale I would be surprised  32 if he could differentiate the two, but —  33 A   That's Tsim tsaltxwit.  And what is before and if he  34 say Tsim, it should be in this general direction  35 inside the basin.  36 Q  All right.  On Exhibit 349 the An sagan tsaltxwit is  37 printed and it's partway along one of the trails that  38 goes from Cedarvale up into the upper Cedar River  39 area, My Lord, and has a black triangle.  The words  40 actually fall down the page.  It's almost at the  41 centre of the map.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MR. PLANT:   And the witness, when he was explaining the  44 location of the basin, was pointing in an area just  45 above the triangle.  46 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  47 MR. GRANT:  Where the "L" is on Exhibit 349. 4901  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  Now --  :  Just to clarify, my friend referred to the trail  coming from Cedarvale.  Actually it doesn't.  Actually  it comes from a place called Tsim tsiix, which is up  river of Cedarvale.  Just so the record is clear.  Now, the places that we have just been talking about  are part of the territory of Tenimgyet?  Yes, depending on which way they described it, yes, if  it's Tsim or Lo'oba, Xsagan tsaltxwit, and what I  described inside the basin.  Does that creek have a name in English that you know?  No, it's all I heard about this name is in our own  language.  Have you yourself actually been on this trail that  goes past this place?  No, not me, no.  Who is it that has taught you about the location on  this trail?  My dad.  Art Mathew senior?  Yes, he's been up and down there and all the Morgans  have been up and down this.  When I say all the  Morgans, I mean the younger ones that are alive today,  they go up and down this trail quite a lot.  Now, have you -- let me ask you this.  I want to cast  your mind back now to about a dozen years ago, 1976,  and at that time you were a director of an entity  known as the Kitwanga Native Cooperation Association?  Yes, for a short while.  And what was the purpose of that association?  Well, how it first started is we were trying to build  a church and they had no fundings.  So then we said  okay, we got a few reserves around us and that's how  we are going to extract some logs, sell it and build  our church, which is the Church Army Hall we know in  Kitwanga.  You say Church Army, you mean Salvation Army?  No, it's another church of the Anglican Church.  That's how it is known.  Did the association also have some activity in  connection with a proposal for a shopping centre?  I don't know about a shopping centre, but in this  particular case when I was on the board we were trying  to make money for the church.  That was the general  2 MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4 MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8 MR.  PLANT  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  46  47  A  4902  purpose.  Make money to build the church?  To build the church, yes.  Now, you have got Exhibit 349 there.  Did you --  that's the map?  Oh, this one.  Yes.  Did you help to make that map?  Help make this?  Yes.  Described it, yes.  You described it?  Yes.  And when it was prepared, you had occasion to check it  and see if it was accurate?  With my dad, yes.  And so you had your father's assistance in checking  the map?  Yes.  Would it be fair to say that your father is more  knowledgeable than you in relation to the boundaries  of these territories depicted on this map and some of  the trails?  Yes.  Now, you told us about how the adaawk is told at a  feast, and that the chiefs, the other chiefs, have the  opportunity to stand up and to correct the adaawk if  it's told incorrectly.  Is that a fair statement?  Yes.  Have you ever heard a chief actually do that?  Sometimes, yes, they do, and they tell you and you  know it, like I says.  And if it's wrong, the next  time you put up a feast it is corrected.  So the correction waits until the next feast?  Yes.  And just so I understand the process, after the chief  has told the adaawk --  Uh-huh.  -- another chief or any of the other chiefs have the  opportunity then to stand up and to make their own  speech?  Yes, my neighbour chiefs will say oh, no, you are  wrong, you are a little bit inside mind, and I have to  correct it.  It's taken and it's noted and --  When was the last time; in other words, the most  recent occasion in which you at a feast heard someone  stand up and correct an adaawk?  Not actually an adaawk.  I heard a couple of chiefs 1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  0  Q  1  A  2  4903  told them they were in somebody else's boundary and  they have to correct that, which was done.  Now, was that a suggestion that somebody had been in  another territory, or that somebody had described the  territory incorrectly?  That's right, described it incorrectly.  I see.  What feast was this?  It was -- the last time I heard it was at a stone  raising feast.  For?  There has been a couple of them that was described  differently.  One of them to memory -- will be Haalus.  13 THE TRANSLATOR:  25 on the plaintiffs' list.  14 MR. PLANT:  Was that a stone raising feast for the late Buddy  Williams or some other person?  For some other person.  I forgot -- but this Haalus I  am speaking about is Buddy Williams.  He then just  died shortly.  He was a young man and I worked with  him.  I grew up with the man.  Now, was it Buddy Williams who had corrected or was it  at a feast for his house?  He was putting it up and it was described incorrectly,  so they had to make arrangements to square it off,  yes.  They just described it wrongly.  And was this a feast in Kitwanga?  Yes.  And how long ago was this?  That would be somewhere about four years ago.  And one of the other chiefs stands up and says you  have made an error or mistake there?  Yes.  And who was that?  I forgot who it was, but it was one of their  neighbour -- I think it was close to the Cedarvale  area, I think it was where it was.  Did the description relate to a fishing site or a  hunting territory?  A hunting territory.  And was that description or was that matter later  corrected?  Yes.  At a subsequent feast?  Yes, another feast that was held, yes.  And they  described, okay, fine, no problem.  And was the subsequent feast at which the correct  description was given, was that also a feast hosted by  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47 4904  1 Buddy Williams?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And how long afterwards did that take place?  4 A   Oh, it didn't take long.  This Buddy Williams is quite  5 a proud person, and he just called the people together  6 and apologized for what had happened, and that was the  7 end of it.  We said no problem, you just described it  8 a little bit into somebody else's territory.  9 Q   So was the second gathering, was that a meeting or a  10 feast?  11 A   It was a feast, yes.  12 Q   And what was the occasion at the feast?  13 A   To generally correct a mistake that was done.  14 Q   Before this occasion are you -- do you recall another  15 occasion at which this kind of correction took place?  16 A   No.  17 Q   That's the one that —  18 A   That's the one that is fresh in my memory, yes.  19 Q   Do you have any recollection of any other --  20 A   There might have been others, yes.  21 Q   But you can't remember them right now?  22 A   No.  The only ones I remember -- corrections that are  23 made not with boundaries but with adoptions, I know  24 has been made and it's corrected.  25 Q   And would I be -- are there sometimes corrections made  26 of places where people sit at the feast table?  27 A   Not really.  They know -- everybody knows where each  28 person goes, so it's there.  Even if you don't come,  29 it's left open.  It's not like everybody crowds in and  30 sits on the table.  When you are placed on the table,  31 on the head table, everybody knows.  And two or three  32 of them didn't come, there was space there until they  33 came.  34 Q   Now, I want to ask you about the other — the smaller  35 map that was in the interrogatories maps.  When I say  36 the smaller map, I mean the map of the Wilson Creek  37 territory which is part of the material at Tab 8, I  38 think, of my book of documents.  Now, Mr. Mathews, you  39 recall this as being one of the maps that was attached  40 to your interrogatories?  41 A   Yes.  42 MR. PLANT:   I ask that it be marked as the next exhibit in the  43 sequence.  44 THE REGISTRAR:  366 G.  45 MR. GRANT:  366 G.  46 THE COURT:  I seem to have misplaced it, Mr. Plant.  I'm sorry.  47 MR. PLANT:  Is it off to your left? 1  THE  COURT  2  THE  REGIS  3  MR.  PLANT  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GRANT  6  THE  COURT  7  8  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  PLANT  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  4905  Has it been marked?  AR: Not yet.  I have tendered it, yes.  Yes, all right.  No objection.  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT NO. 366 G - SCHEDULE C TO  INTERROGATORIES RESPONSE OF A. MATHEWS)  :  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Mathews, I earlier was asking you about  trapping, your own personal trapping on the Wilson  Creek territory, and you told me about a creek, has  the number 560 where others of the Morgans trapped.  I  think you said it was on the other side of the creek  that you had a trapline?  Yes.  Can you remember the name of the creek?  Guxws heitxit.  It came from this side of the  mountain.  Guxws heitxit, so they named it Xsi gwin  heitxit.  Can you locate it for me on this map, 366 G.  And  perhaps just to get you oriented, here is Woodcock  Airstrip --  I tell you.  I know it, you don't.  Here this little  creek, it's right in the middle of this Kwinekstaat,  Tsawin Lo'op, and then there is another little creek.  I don't know if it's marked on this map, but  apparently if this is Tsawin Lo'op, the little creek I  am talking about should be right in the centre of this  one that goes up and goes on the side of this  mountain.  So I work this side and my grandfather --  The left side?  Yes.  And the others work the right side?  Yes.  Does the creek go up as far as the lake Dam Ansa  Maiyest?  No, it's on this side of it.  There is a little trail  that takes us up to this side of the mountain, so it  goes like that.  It's not marked on this particular  map but it comes out here.  At Kwinekstaat?  Yes.  We call it Xsi Gwin Heitxit, that little creek  comes out here. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  THE  WITNE  24  25  26  27  MR.  PLANT  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  39  MR.  PLANT  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4906  So the little creek comes out right where you are  pointing at, where the word Kwinekstaat meets the  river?  The word, yes.  And does that little creek go up and become part of  Xsa Gwingoohl or Wilson Creek?  No, it stays separate, comes on the side of the  mountain like this.  It comes out.  It's a small  little creek.  I don't know if it's marked on the map,  but that's how we named it.  That's the name of the  little creek, Xsi Gwin Heitxit.  Its been there a long  time.  But we go along this ridge and I worked this  side all the way up past these little lakes here, all  the way up to the foot of the mountain here.  And my  grandfather works on this side, the right side, and he  goes towards this little lake here.  Do you actually have a trapline on Wilson Creek?  That's what I am describing, that little trapline we  have going here.  And my grandfather has numbers of  traps going along all in this area, yes.  :  He is indicating all of the area on the east side of  the territory.  3S: And I haven't been up here, but my grandfather says  he has about over a hundred traps stemming right from  Kwinekstaat here and working on this side of Tsawin  Lo'op here.  Which grandfather is this?  Geoffrey.  And they work this little area and work  this little creek all the way up to Sagat.  And they  work this little Xsi Wilp gankws.  They call it little  creek.  So there is a lot of -- they trapped  extensively in this area all the way up the mountain.  But I work here, like I said, the small little creek  at the foot of the mountain.  :  He was indicating the creek, x-s-i, w-i-l-p,  g-a-n-k-w-s, and the southwestern part of the  territory where his grandfather worked.  As being the territory where his grandfather had all  the traps?  Yes.  But that little creek is too small for this type  of map, but I know it comes out right there.  Comes out right where the word Kwinekstaat is?  Yes, just where this Tsawin Lo'op comes out.  I take it that's not Wilson Creek?  No. 1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  MR.  PLANT  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  THE  COURT  33  THE  WITNE  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  37  MR.  PLANT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  THE  WITNE  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  MR.  PLANT  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  4907  :  It's a creek to the northeast of it, My Lord, from  the witness's description.  And what in Gitksan is the name for Wilson Creek?  Kwinekstaat.  Is that the name --  The creek itself you mean?  Yes.  Xsi gwin K'ohl.  And Kwinekstaat is the name of what, the mouth of the  creek or --  Where the guard sat, I told you.  That's why they call  it Kwinekstaat, where he sits guarding this part of  the river, to see if any warriors coming from down the  river.  Now, with -- continuing with this map just for another  few minutes.  Do you see where Woodcock Airstrip is?  Yes.  Where is the boundary in relation to Woodcock  Airstrip?  And by that I mean the boundaries of the  territory that is the subject of this map.  This line was put there accidentally, wrongly.  You  see, Ango'ohlhon is that village, so it comes out  here.  So the line should come out almost at the eastern end  of the airstrip?  Yes.  And in doing that it would bring into the territory  all of that place marked as --  Ango'ohlhon.  Thank you.  : Should be at the east end of the airstrip?  3S:  Just a little east of it.  :  He indicated to the area just at the eastern end of  the A, which is Ango'ohlhon there on the map.  I would  suggest that he should mark it on the exhibit.  :  Sure.  :  Where you say that boundary should be.  3S:  Should be right here.  :  And how would it connect?  Okay.  Just on a red line  on that Exhibit 366 G.  When you were looking at -- well, I'll just leave the  map here for a second.  I may be making an assumption.  Did you look at this map at the time that you swore  the answer to your interrogatories?  Yes.  And we told them -- where it is here, but I 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  0  Q  1  A  2  3 THE  COURT  4908  guess he put it in this way.  So you saw the map and you told someone that the  boundary was in the wrong place?  Yes.  And who was the person that you told?  When we were working with this one, this particular  map, we were working with myself, my dad, Stanley  Williams and -- what's his name?  I keep forgetting  his name.  Marvin George?  No, it wasn't.  Marvin wasn't here when we did this  one.  :  The question was who did you tell.  14 THE WITNESS:   The people I am talking about, the people helping  15 me prepare?  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  Neil Sterritt.  18 THE COURT:  But not Marvin George?  19 THE WITNESS:  No, he wasn't present at the time.  2 0 MR. PLANT:  At that time were there any other errors in this map  that you drew to Mr. Sterritt's attention that you can  recall now?  Yes, a few of them, because like the language -- you  remember what we were arguing about, Tsim and Xsa, in  that basin --  Yes.  Couldn't quite make it right because -- especially  down inside of the mountain we come down at Xsa  Del'aks, which is here.  You are pointing at a creek which has X-s-a  D-e-1'a-k-s marked on it?  Yes.  And what was it that you were concerned about there?  Our boundary should be down the creek on the height of  the mountain here down this creek stemming over.  The boundary actually follows the creek?  Follows the creek, yes.  But not all the way down I think you said?  No, just over here and then down --  So in -- just for reference, the -- there is a  district lot marked here, L3952, and somewhere just  above where the line is there?  Cut across, yes.  You see, when we tell this -- the  two chiefs are standing there, there is no problem,  like I said.  Start off at An tsegwas and then we go  close to Win ahl law.  So you just mentioned these  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  47 4909  1 two, but look at the vast amount, that whole area, An  2 tsegwas and Win ahl law, but then you see we cut down  3 at this little creek.  But that's where the mistake  4 was taking place, because they figure we go all the  5 way over here, which didn't, came down this little  6 creek --  7 Q   Perhaps you should show His Lordship the places you  8 are referring to.  9 A  When you are trying to make a map, you see you come  10 from this -- you go to there, but when it actually  11 doesn't -- it comes down to this Del'aks, and that's  12 what we are describing, but they went a little bit too  13 far over, so we told them to make this right.  14 THE COURT:  Well, this location here it's upside down.  I can't  15 read it.  16 MR. PLANT:  Winxsa Delaks.  17 THE COURT:  Was that inside your territory or outside?  18 THE WITNESS:   Inside.  19 THE COURT:  So inside your territory?  20 THE WITNESS:   Yes, inside.  21 THE COURT:  Counsel should spell that for Madam Reporter.  22 MR. GRANT: W-i-n-x-s-a, D-e-1-a-ks.  And the witness was  23 indicating two mountains, one on the left or the west  24 side, winluumesxw, w-i-n-1-u-u-m-e-s-x-w, and that's  25 as it is spelled on the map, and the other one that's  26 just outside the territory on this map is Win ahl  27 l'aw.  W-i-n, a-h-1, l'a-w.  And he was indicating  2 8 that the boundary came down the creek that goes --  29 that starts at just below -- between those two  30 mountains and which is labelled as x-s-a d-e-1'a-k-s.  31 MR. PLANT:  32 Q   Arising out of what Mr. Grant just said, I would just  33 like to ask you, the place that Mr. Grant identified,  34 it's printed here on the map as winluumesxw,  35 w-i-n-1-u-u-m-e-s-x-w, which is written across the  36 boundary line.  Is that properly identified on this  37 map?  38 A   No, it's here you see.  39 Q   And you are pointing now at the area where the same  40 word appears with the asterisk?  41 A   Yes, that's the berry patch, winluumesxw, I already  42 indicated, and our boundary went to An Tsegwas.  43 Q   So pointing up at the boundary line where you say  44 Winluumesxw is, you say that has a different name?  45 A  An Tsegwas.  I always indicated that.  46 MR. GRANT:  And that is on Exhibit 349.  It is shown there, My  47 Lord, 1  MR.  PLANT  2  THE  COURT  3  4  MR.  PLANT  5  THE  COURT  4910  :  A-n, t-s-e-g-w-a-s is the spelling on Exhibit 349.  :  What do you think, Mr. Plant?  Are we at a  convenient place to --  :  Yes, My Lord.  :  All right.  I have a pre-trial conference, so we  6 will an adjourn.  7 THE REGISTRAR: Order in Court.  8  9 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 P.M.)  10  11 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  12 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  13 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  14 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  15  16  17 LORI OXLEY  18 OFFICIAL REPORTER  19 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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