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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-05-25] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 25, 1988

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 6462  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE COURT  Vancouver, B. C.  May 25, 198 8.  THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  Wednesday, May 25th, 1988.  Calling Delgamuukw versus  Her Majesty the Queen.  I caution the witness and the interpreter, you are  both under oath.  THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie?  MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord.  Now, my lord, yesterday there was a  comment made about -- by Mr. Rush about the  possibility of viewing commission on the Monday that  we have before Glen Williams starts on Tuesday.  Well, my lord, I think your lordship anticipated  seeing all of Glen Williams' commission that day.  Stanley Williams' commission took over 12 days and it  would be impossible to see in one day.  COURT:  There is not a fast forward on the tape?  MACKENZIE:  That might be a useful device for other  occasions too, my lord.  Well, I didn't anticipate seeing all of Mr.  Williams' evidence on Monday.  I didn't know  whether -- I didn't know how long Mr. Williams'  evidence was.  I don't know what Mr. Rush intended.  Perhaps he can tell us.  MR. RUSH:  I intended that we start the commission evidence.  I  knew that it went over many days but, of course, they  weren't full days and you could probably see several  days in one sitting day.  At least, that's my  supposition.  I haven't seen the tape itself.  But I  thought we could start the tape and --  THE COURT:  Mr. Williams is the witness that you think I should  see from start to finish?  RUSH:  Yes.  COURT:  All right.  Well, does that affect what you are  saying, Mr. Mackenzie?  MACKENZIE:  As I understand, Mr. Rush wants to spend one day  seeing part of Mr. Stanley Williams' evidence and  possibly carrying on another day?  RUSH:  Correct.  MACKENZIE:  And the question to be raised in our discussion  the other day, my lord, in view of the fact that these  matters are outstanding, that is, how we are going to  select 15 minutes of chief and 15 minutes of cross or  just going to look at them for demeanor.  Looking at  all of Stanley Williams' commission raises the  question of whether your lordship will be disposed to  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR. 6463  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 consider objections, the objections that were made at  2 the commission or whether that's going to be something  3 that will be left for review of the transcript.  There  4 are some problems that arise as a result of this  5 suggestion, my lord.  And it -- they relate to the  6 submissions that were made before your lordship and  7 that decision by your lordship with respect to  8 commissions.  9 THE COURT:  Well, if I am going to see the evidence of Mr.  10 Williams, I would assume -- I speak without the  11 benefit of counsels' assistance -- that I would deal  12 with objections as they arise.  If, for example, I was  13 to conclude that a line of examination in chief or in  14 cross, was about inadmissible matters, then there  15 would be no point seeing it.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  It may be useful to have that in  17 fact at an early viewing because that may assist in  18 selecting or handling later commission tapes are being  19 suggested for your lordship.  20 Well, I wanted to raise those concerns, my lord.  21 THE COURT:  Who was counsel for the parties on the examination  22 by commission of Mr. Williams?  23 MR. RUSH:  Peter Grant was on for the plaintiffs.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  And Mr. Plant was there for some time for the  25 province.  26 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I was there for the Attorney-General of Canada  27 then Mr. Plant had to leave toward the end as a result  28 of a personal matter and I finished the cross-  2 9 examination.  30 THE COURT:  Is it your intention to have Mr. Grant here on  31 Monday, Mr. Rush?  32 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  But, it may be that — if it's possible for him  33 to be here, but if he can't be, then we would be  34 prepared to go ahead without him.  35 THE COURT:  Well, is it convenient for Mr. Plant to be here, Mr.  36 Mackenzie?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't know Mr. Plant's schedule right now, my  38 lord, but I think we anticipate he will do Glen  39 Williams so he may be available on Monday.  I can  40 confirm that with your lordship.  41 THE COURT:  I am in counsels' hands on this.  I think you people  42 have to work it out and make a suggestion as to how to  43 proceed.  I am amenable to most reasonable  44 suggestions.  That is, if I think they are reasonable.  45 And I will be guided very much by what counsel say.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, having raised these concerns now,  47 perhaps they can be the subject of discussion and 6464  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 further submission in the process of shaking these  2 procedures out.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  4  5    CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:   (Continued)  6  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   Mr. Muldoe, yesterday we started talking about hunting  9 and trapping.  Now, you have a registered trapline,  10 don't you?  11 A   Yes, I have it on the Gitludahl Territory.  12 Q   Kitludahl's Territory at Twin Lake?  13 A   Yes.  Twin Lake.  Naa dax de'et.  14 Q   Mr. Muldoe just gave the Giksan name for Twin Lakes.  15 Now, you have a registered trapline to protect your  16 interests in the trapping?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And that means that when someone traps -- sorry, when  19 someone trespasses you can go to the game warden; is  20 that right?  21 A   That's right.  I also give permission to anyone that  22 want to trap there.  Like a few years ago my  23 son-in-law, Victor Mowatt, came up to me and asked me  24 if he wants to trap there and I told him he can trap  25 there, he doesn't need my permission, but to make it  26 legal he says can you give me a note to show it to  27 anyone, and I made a copy of that, and I kept one  28 myself and gave one to him.  And he traps through that  29 country, all that area and one winter and one week he  30 went out there and you know what happened, he find one  31 of Mary Allan's son out there.  And just to drive up  32 there with a pickup, and just right after that Gene  33 Allan was the one who was in there, and they pull a  34 marten off on Victor Mowatt's trap and that marten was  35 still kicking around when -- he caught him right in  36 there.  He told him if you know what will happen if I  37 use Indian law on you, you would be laying right here.  38 He said I don't want to do that, he says, so you take  39 that marten and put it in my pickup.  That's exactly  40 what he did and told him to get the hell out of there.  41 Q   You know, we don't -- we can't ask you for evidence  42 about what other people said to third parties.  So if  43 you could just give me the evidence about your  44 knowledge, then we can move ahead with this  45 cross-examination.  46 When someone trespasses on your property, you take  47 it to the game warden? 6465  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes, I either take it to the game warden or tell them  2 to leave there.  I don't take them right in there --  3 the other time I have to take them into --  4 Q   I am handing up examination for discovery transcript.  5 Now, Mr. Muldoe, you were examined for discovery in  6 April, 1987, weren't you?  Now, Mr. Plant asked you  7 questions on examination in April, 1987, do you recall  8 that?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   I am going to read you some questions from that  11 examination.  Question 4990 page 63, and you could  12 follow along here.  Mr. Plant's question is:  13  14 Q   "Not off-hand."  15  16 And he refers to a previous answer you gave.  He says:  17  18 "You said today when people trespass on to another  19 person's territory they do not get shot any more?  2 0              A   No.  21 Q   What happens when they trespass?  22 A   Take them up to the law.  23 Q   All right.  24 A   Don't take anything our own hands.  If anyone  25 sets a trap on my part territory all I have got to  26 do is go to the game warden, he picks up the trap  27 and gives it to me, whoever owns the territory."  28  29 Now, were you asked those questions?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And did you give those answers?  32 A   I give those answer.  33 Q   Were the answers true?  34 A  Well, the answer is true what -- could be a little  35 different, but it's still true.  36 Q   In your evidence you spoke about trapline cabins on  37 the territories?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Many of those cabins have rotted, haven't they?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And now you go to the traplines in your vehicles,  42 correct?  43 A   Yes.  Only go so far then I have to walk the rest of  44 the way to get to the other place where I have to go.  45 I don't drive right around the trapline in a vehicle.  46 Q   We'll look at the territories in a little more detail.  47 But I just want to get your help on this question. 6466  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Today, generally speaking, the only traplines that you  2 can work or that you do work are the ones for which  3 there is road access to the area, correct?  4 A   I can only drive so far to the area where I have to go  5 and from there I walk through it.  I don't have to  6 drive all the way.  7 Q   Well, for example, at Gwinageese, you drive in the 4  8 by 4 up to, up Highway 37 and then up the Forestry  9 access road, correct?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Yes.  And to get to Gitludahl at Twin Lake, the road  12 goes right by your cabin now, doesn't it?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And to get to Deep Canoe Creek, the road now goes up  15 Cullon Creek, doesn't it?  16 A   It just goes so far then we walk on the snowshoes the  17 rest of the way in.  18 THE COURT:  I am sorry, what was the third location you  19 mentioned?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Deep Canoe Creek.  21 Q   And Deep Canoe Creek is where Ken Muldoe has his  22 trapline?  23 A   It's on the north from, north from the -- what they  24 called Burnt Hill.  It's on a place they call Wii xsan  25 eekw, way down.  26 MR. RUSH:  1448.  27 THE COURT:  Sorry, 14 —  2 8 MR. RUSH:  48.  2 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   Now, in your evidence you mentioned that you had been  32 trapping mainly with Joe Starr between 1931 and 1942,  33 correct?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And then while you were operating the sawmill, you  36 didn't get out trapping too much, did you?  37 A   No.  38 Q   You just got out around the spring breakup?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And that was from about 1942 to 1966?  41 A   Yes.  But I don't always go out to trap in there.  42 Whenever I have a chance I usually go out.  43 Q   It's difficult to go out to trap when you are busy  44 with another job, isn't it?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And you first went into Gwinageese with the boys  47 around 1973, correct? 6467  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A Somewhere around that.  2 Q About 15 years ago?  3 A Yes.  4 Q And the boys, as you say, were Kenny Muldoe, George  5 Muldoe and Lloyd Muldoe, your sons?  6 A Yes.  7 Q And at that time they hired a plane to fly in, didn't  8 they?  9 A Yes, and also Albert Tait was in there as well.  10 Delgamuukw, former Delgamuukw.  11 Q Delgamuukw.  Now, the boys hadn't been in there before  12 that, had they?  13 A No, they hadn't been in there before.  But I was in  14 there.  15 Q You were in there in 1933, weren't you?  16 A Somewhere around 1933.  17 Q And you weren't in there between 1933 and 1973, were  18 you?  19 A Yeah.  20 Q That's correct.  So, no one was trapping in that area  21 for about 40 years before 1973; is that correct?  22 A Yes.  23 Q Yes.  And no one was trapping up in the Luus  24 Territories in the 1970s, were they?  25 A In which part of the Luus Territory was that?  26 Q I will answer that question.  First of all, there are  27 no roads into the Luus Territories, are there?  28 A No, Luus Territories went to Kuldo.  29 Q There are no roads into Kuldo, are there?  30 A No.  31 Q So no one was trapping around that area in the 1980s,  32 were they?  33 A No.  34 Q And no one was trapping around that area in the 1970s,  35 were they?  36 A No.  37 Q In fact, no one has been trapping in the Kuldo area  38 since the 1940s, have they?  39 A Yeah.  40 Q That's correct.  And there is no road into Shaladamus  41 Creek, is there?  42 A No.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, Shaladamus —  44 THE COURT:  Yes, I have it.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q No one has been trapping at Shaladamus Creek since the  47 1940s, have they? 6468  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  No.  And there is no road into Antgulibix's Territory is  there?  No.  A  Q  MR. RUSH  COURT  RUSH:  So no one has been trapping there since the 1940s  either, have they?  Yeah.  That's correct.  That's Territory I, my lord, up in the northwestern  part of the -- the Territory I is referred to in Mr.  Muldoe's affidavit.  It's known there is one, more than one Antgulibix  Territory.  The supposition in the question and answer  is that they both knew they were talking about the  Territory I and perhaps they did.  Show him 486.  Yes, I think he should be shown 486 and if that's  what they are both talking about, that's fine.  MACKENZIE:  Q   You understand I was talking about --  RUSH:  Can you show the witness 486?  COURT:  He has it.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Antgulibix at Wisan Skit; is that right?  A   Yes.  MACKENZIE:  That's Territory I, my lord.  Q   Now, in your affidavit, you listed the informants who  told you about the territories, didn't you?  Yes.  And they have all passed away, haven't they?  Well, the former people they all pass away.  That's the older generation?  Yes.  They were the last generation really to spend a lot of  time in the territories?  That's the one on that territory, it's George  Williams, former Tsibasaa, and George Williams, and  George Williams, former Tsibasaa and his wife and also  the person by the name of Donald Mowatt, but I don't  know the name of what he was using then.  And Fred  White and Alfred Glass, they were all in there but  they all passed away.  You are speaking about Antgulilbix's Territory?  Yes.  And Tsibasaa is number 66 on the plaintiffs' list.  No one walks into the territory, such as Wisan  Skit, and spends the winter there any more, do they?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 6469  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   No.  2 Q   Now, another thing that you spoke about in your  3 evidence was your concerns about the logging, do you  4 recall that?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And you're aware that many of the people who work for  7 the logging companies are Gitksan, right?  8 A   Yes.  At Kispiox.  9 Q   At Kispiox?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Do you know or have you ever visited the Westar Mill  12 at South Hazelton?  13 A  Well, they just started lately.  14 Q   That's — I am sorry, the Rim Mill at South Hazelton?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Have you been to that mill?  17 A   I just take some workers there but I don't work there  18 myself.  19 Q   You have taken some workers there?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Indian people?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And you know that most of the employees at the Rim  24 Mill at South Hazelton are Gitksan Indian people?  25 A  Well, there is some working, quite a few working in  2 6 there but I wouldn't know their names.  So I don't  27 know anything about who works there.  28 Q   I understand.  And have you been to the Westar Mill at  29 Kitwanga?  30 A   Yes, I worked at Kitwanga Mill there when they first  31 building it up, I was working there as a carpenter.  32 Q   You know there are a lot of Indian people working at  33 the Kitwanga Mill?  34 A   Yes, quite a few but same thing I don't know who works  35 there.  36 Q   And you mentioned the new mill, there is a new Westar  37 Mill at Carnaby, isn't there?  38 A   I haven't seen the place yet myself.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:    Now, madam registrar, I am going to be  40 referring to the blue volume, volume four.  41 My lord, we have admissions on some of these  42 documents, starting with tab 17 in the blue book,  43 volume four.  The first document is 17 A, which is an  44 application of Moses Morrison, dated sometime in March  45 or April, 1941.  The date on the application itself  46 isn't clear.  And 17 A is a photocopy of the front and  47 reverse of that document. 6470  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  REGISTRAR:  Trapline application?  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  COURT:  Exhibit.  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 545.  (EXHIBIT 545: APPLICATION FOR TRAPLINE)  RUSH:  That's just tab 17 A.  MACKENZIE:  For now, yes.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  17 B is an application for cancellation of a  trapline by Moses Morrison, dated April 27, 1956.  I  submit that as the next exhibit, my lord.  COURT:  What does I. F. 0. mean?  MACKENZIE:  In favour of, I am instructed, my lord.  COURT:  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT 54 6: APPLICATION FOR CANCELLATION OF TRAPLINE  LICENCE DATED APRIL 27, 1956)  COURT:  Yes that will be Exhibit 546.  MACKENZIE:  That's front and reverse at 17 B.  Those are  archival documents so we don't have the originals  here.  At 17 C is application for registration of a  trapline, Peter Muldoe, April 27, 1956.  That's  admitted and I submit that as the next exhibit, my  lord.  COURT:  547.  (EXHIBIT 547:  APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION OF  TRAPLINE, PETER MULDOE, DATED APRIL 27, 1956)  MACKENZIE:  And the next admitted document is tab 21 C, my  lord.  That's, at 21 C, that's a copy of Albert Tait's  application for registration of a trapline dated  October 26, 1948.  I have to say to Mr. Rush that he  admitted another copy of this, that is  Attorney-General of Canada copy of this, we have the  original of the -- of this particular application.  I  leave that to Mr. Rush whether he will admit the  original document.  I am handing to him the  Attorney-General of Canada copy and now I will hand to  him the original.  And the original is Attorney-  General of British Columbia document number 1876.  COURT:  The Nass River doesn't flow into any of these  territories, does it?  1  THE  2  MR.  3  THE  4  THE  5  6  7  8  MR.  9  MR.  10  THE  11  MR.  12  13  14  THE  15  MR.  16  THE  17  18  19  20  21  THE  22  MR.  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  THE  30  31  32  33  34  MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  THE  47 6471  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  It's just north of one of the  territories that has been discussed but that's the  Delgamuukw Territory, Gwinageese.  It doesn't flow  into these territories.  It flows through a Gitksan Territory but not any one  of ones on the map.  Through territories north of these?  Yes.  I think this -- I don't have any difficulty  with the fact that we are referring to documents in  two different places.  I think the original of Albert  Tait's, the former Delgamuukw, trapline or application  should be filed.  THE COURT:  This will be Exhibit 548, that is 21 C.  (EXHIBIT 548:  APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION OF  TRAPLINE, ALBERT TAIT, DATED OCTOBER 26, 1948)  MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, the original of that, 21 C, has just been  admitted.  And one other identified or admitted document is  tab 11 A, tab 11 A is application for registration of  a trapline by Joseph Starr, S-T-A-R-R, dated February  23, 1951.  THE COURT:  11 C?  THE REGISTRAR:  11 A.  MR. MACKENZIE:  11 A, my lord.  Tab 11 A.  THE COURT:  All right.  (EXHIBIT 549:  REGISTRATION OF TRAPLINE APPLICATION,  JOSEPH STARR, DATED FEBRUARY 23, 1951)  MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, before I — before I go further on  this reviewing these traplines, I have some general  documents in here which may be of assistance and the  first is at Tab A, your lordship may wish to --  THE COURT:  Tab A?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab A.  And that is an overlay of traplines on  the plaintiffs' Exhibit 486.  So it's a combination of  Exhibit 24 A and the plaintiffs' Exhibit 486.  Now,  this is not an exact fit because of the combining the  two, but your lordship will see in many cases the  trapline boundaries follow the boundaries, follow the  rivers and the natural boundaries which seem to be the  territorial boundaries.  So it gives an idea of which  traplines are in which territories as a guide.  And at  tab B, my lord, there is a table setting out the  territories and the traplines in each one.  That's tab 6472  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 B.  Does your lordship have that?  2 THE COURT:  What did you say about Tab A again, it's a  3 combination of 486 and what?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  And Exhibit 24-A, my lord, the trapline map.  5 THE COURT:  24-A.  Yes.  Thank you.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have that?  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  Tab B is a table?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Your lordship may wish to have that  9 overlay handy for reference during the discussion of  10 the traplines.  11 MR. RUSH:  Of course, my lord, you should be aware of the fact  12 that the description of the trapline boundaries on  13 this overlay, and I have all of the same problems with  14 this overlay, and I think your lordship has taken this  15 as something that you can refer to but you have never  16 marked these as exhibits.  17 THE COURT:  No.  18 MR. RUSH:  But there is, again, an assumption built into my  19 friend's observations here that these trapline  20 boundaries in some way relate to the application  21 descriptions that are contained on the applications,  22 and they don't.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, I am not going to make any bold  24 assertions about this, except to say that this is a  25 guide, which, in my instructions, shows a general,  26 generally useful to show the areas of these various  27 traplines.  28 MR. RUSH:  But my point is that great moment is made of the  29 application for the traplines that have been advanced  30 to your lordship and my instructions are that what  31 appears here is a numbered, and described trapline  32 area, does not coincide with the descriptions that are  33 given in the applications which you have been -- which  34 I have been -- which have been admitted today and  35 which may well be put to the witness.  36 THE COURT:  Well, let's take, for example, Wisan Skit —  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's Territory I, my lord, Antgulilbix.  38 THE COURT:  The Exhibit 486 shows the west boundary of  39 Antgulilbix's territory, to be west of the Kispiox  40 River -- I think that's the Kispiox, isn't it?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's correct, my lord.  42 THE COURT:  And the Tab A purports to show the trapline  43 boundaries slightly to the west of the boundaries  44 shown on Exhibit 486.  45 Now, is that the sort of thing that's in doubt,  46 Mr. -- not necessarily that one, but that sort of  47 thing?  Is that what you say is not an accurate and 6473  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 faithful representation of what the trapline  2 registration applications show?  3 MR. RUSH:  Well, if your lordship separates the underlay, which  4 is Exhibit 486, or I believe an attempt to draw  5 that —  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's a photocopy of Exhibit 486.  7 THE COURT:  It's the same thing, I think.  8 MR. RUSH:  The overlay was, what I say about the overlay, is  9 that the lines which purport to be the boundary of the  10 traplines contained in the overlay, do not coincide  11 with the descriptions given in the applications which  12 you have before you.  That's my point.  I am not --  13 and I think that therein lies the frailty of using  14 this without some evidence of somebody from the Fish  15 and Wildlife Department, or somewhere else, about what  16 those boundary representations show.  17 THE COURT:  Well, I have understood throughout that these  18 overlays with the blue trapline boundaries and the  19 trapline licence numbers shown, are unproven and they  20 are no more than a representation of what someone out  21 of court has informed counsel is a representation of  22 the trapline boundaries and it goes no further than  2 3 that at the moment.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  To use the table at Tab B, my lord, and to  25 continue with your lordship's example --  2 6 THE COURT:  The second from the bottom?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  So territory A, or Territory I would be  28 second from the bottom on tab -- or on page one of  29 that tab.  And your lordship will see the name of the  30 chief there and then the territory name, Wisan Skit,  31 and then following across your lordship will see what  32 we are instructed are the traplines within that area.  33 For example, 630T021 is Stanley Wilson and we know  34 Stanley Wilson is Tsibasaa, who is Mary Johnson's  35 brother, and  in the house of Antgulilbix, just as an  3 6 example.  37 THE COURT:  But he is not deceased?  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, he is not deceased.  He is alive.  And his  39 traplines, the applications on that trapline are at  40 tab 15 in the blue volume four and then there is some  41 information about whether the person is alive,  42 village, clan and the house that follows that.  We  43 weren't able to determine that for every person.  That  44 is an expeditious way to see, to get an idea of what's  45 happening or what may be happening with registrations  46 of traplines in these territories.  47 And I just should point out, just above that on 6474  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  page one, you see Kliiyem lax haa, one, that should be  H-l and Wii mugulasxw is H-2, which is the paragraph  number in the -- Mr. Muldoe's affidavit.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  And really the territorial designations have  been left off the left-hand side of this tab B, it  should be A, B, C, D, et cetera, commencing with  Gitludahl at the top of page one.  And that would  correspond to the letter designations in Mr. Muldoe's  affidavit and on the trapline overlay.  COURT:  Well, if you go A, B, C, D, F, you get down to  Kliiyem lax haa is F, there is no G?  MACKENZIE:  There is no G.  Mr. Rush indicated that.  COURT:  There is H-l and H-2.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And they Gwiiyeehl is J and there is no K,  and Delgamuukw on page 2 is L, and then the second  Gwiiyeehl is M on page 2 and the Geel is N, 0, that's  Lax Didax, Geel is 0, and then the next Delgamuukw is  P, and then it goes Q for Wii Minosik and R for  Wiigyet.  And that finishes off the descriptions of  the territories in Mr. Muldoe's affidavit.  And what follows in the table are other territories  that have been discussed in the evidence.  For  example, the Gitludahl Territory at Salmon River and  then some other territories that will be discussed in  the evidence.  COURT:  This doesn't purport to be abstract of trapline  registration title, that is, it purports to represent  current trapline registrations, does it?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  COURT:  Not an historical review of all the traplines?  MACKENZIE:  That's correct, my lord.  We have included  historical applications in the volume and some of them  have been admitted but the vast majority sent over  with the Notice to Admit have not been admitted, but  we have gone through the ones that have been admitted.  COURT:  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  I first want to deal with the traplines held by  Mr. Muldoe and his family and the next one I wish to  speak about is Ken Muldoe's trapline at tab 10.  COURT:  I am sorry, tab 7?  MACKENZIE:  Tab 10, my lord, and going to tab 10 C.  Q   Now, this, this file comes from trapline number 630T  016, and now, Mr. Muldoe, that is a letter from Ken,  your son, to the Fish and Wildlife Branch, dated  November 19, 1974?  A   Yes.  1  2  3  4  THE  5  MR.  6  7  8  9  10  11  THE  12  13  MR.  14  THE  15  MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  THE  28  29  30  MR.  31  THE  32  MR.  33  34  35  36  37  THE  38  MR.  39  40  41  THE  42  MR.  43  44  45  46  47 6475  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Next exhibit, my lord.  2 MR. RUSH:  That's not the question, the question is can you  3 recognize the signature?  Obviously it's a letter from  4 Mr. Ken Muldoe, I can testify to that.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I get Mr. Rush's point.  Perhaps I can  6 rephrase the question.  7 Q   Just referring to Ken's signature here, can you  8 identify that as Ken's signature on that letter, Mr.  9 Muldoe?  10 A   It could be.  I don't look at the signature every day.  11 Q   You have identified Ken Muldoe's signature on several  12 Band Council resolutions.  13 THE COURT:  Excuse me, Mr. Mackenzie.  14 (Interruption in proceedings)  15 Sorry, Mr. Mackenzie.  I just directed this trial  16 be heard by a County Court judge.  17 I am sorry, Mr. Mackenzie, I am not sure where you  18 were.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  We were just referring to the documents at tab  20 10.  21 THE COURT:  WeLL, I am looking at 10 C, have you finished with  22 it?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  My lord, I think I will just move  24 on to another subject.  25 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, you said that Ken has a trapline up  26 on Cullon Creek?  27 A   Yes, part of it.  28 Q   I am instructed that Ken Muldoe is the registered  29 holder of trapline 0630T016, my lord, and that appears  30 in the -- on the overlay.  31 THE COURT:  The number again, please?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  630T016.  33 THE COURT:  630T0 —  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  T016.  On the overlay it goes up into southern  35 Wiigyet Territory and it takes in part of -- that's  36 territory B, and takes in part of Delgamuukw  37 territory, L, and then comes down in to the Gwiiyeehl  38 Territory, J.  Does your lordship have that?  3 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q   Now referring to Tab 21, and looking at document 21 E,  42 page 21 E, this is, I am instructed, my lord, trapline  43 number 630T025, 630T025, which, generally speaking, is  44 up in the Gwinageese area.  45 MR. RUSH:  Can my friend tell us how he relates the number to  46 the documents in front of the witness?  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  These are the documents found in that file in 6476  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  the Fish and Wildlife Branch, my lord, and other  repositories, related to that trapline.  MR. RUSH:  I am not sure really that is the answer, my lord, of  the relationship of the number to the description.  It  could well be there is a number on a file in the  office, but what does that have to do with the  description?  THE COURT:  Well, I am prepared to take counsel's statement that  this document came from the file with that number.  And that may be as far as the matter goes at this  point.  The defence hasn't had a chance yet to call  any witnesses, so in the absence of admissions, there  is nothing the defendant can do except put these  forward with the implied assumption that they will be  proven.  MR. RUSH:  My lord, I don't have any difficulty with my friend  advising you that his information is that these come  from a file with the file number on it.  But I do have  a difficulty with him leading the witness to a  document and having the suggestion that the document  in some way relates to the description on the overlay.  That's the only difficulty I have.  Because my advice  is that they do not correspond.  Not that all of them  don't correspond, but that, as a general matter, the  ones that you have been referred to does not  correspond.  THE COURT:  You say do not correspond at all or precisely?  MR. RUSH:  It depends on the time.  It's completely a question  of the year.  And in some cases they may well  correspond, in other cases there is no correspondence.  THE COURT:  Well, the defendant has to be allowed to proceed in  the absence of proof because, as I said a moment ago,  the defendant hasn't yet had a chance to adduce any  evidence.  I think that I have to allow Mr. Mackenzie  to make statements as counsel, put them to the witness  and ask him to assume these things and that's implicit  in however he puts it.  I don't think, again, it's  necessary to use magic words but it's an assumption  that he is asking the witness at this point to accept.  I don't know of any other way to do it.  And I know  that it's -- it tends to be unsatisfactory, but I  don't see how perfect or even close to perfection can  be achieved.  It seems to me it has to be done this  way.  Unless your objection is one that would require  me to stop the defence from this line of  investigation, and I am not disposed to do that.  MR. RUSH:  My objection merely goes to the question, the way the 6477  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 questions are framed to the witness and what the  2 assumption is about how the correspondence is in  3 these -- I mean if we want to ask the witness if he  4 can track through the geographical descriptions  5 contained on 21 E, and how that relates to the  6 overlay, I mean there is no basis for the witness to  7 be able to track through that description.  8 Well, maybe there is if he was a cartographer, I  9 suppose he could do that.  I can't do it.  But my  10 point is, that the questions ought not to suggest that  11 there is something in this description which by its  12 description relates to the portrayal of that or the  13 depiction of that on the overlay.  14 THE COURT:  Well, I think that what you say is valid, Mr. Rush,  15 but I have a practical problem to deal with.  I think  16 Mr. Mackenzie has to try and make the witness  17 understand these suggestions he is making to him and  18 if it isn't phrased in precisely those terms, I am  19 taking it to be that it is a suggestion and nothing  20 more than that and it will be for the defence in due  21 course, if they are so advised and they are able to  22 perform, to match up these various files, numbers, and  23 maps and plans.  You go ahead, Mr. Mackenzie, and we  24 will see how we get along.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   Now, referring to the document 21 E, this is -- this  27 appears to be an application for registration of a  28 trapline dated May 14, 1979, by George Muldoe.  And  29 the other members on the trapline appear to be Albert  30 Tait, Lloyd Muldoe, Earl Muldoe, Samson Muldoe, Ken  31 Muldoe, Ray Mowatt, Albert Mowatt, Lottie Muldoe and  32 Sadie Mowatt.  Now, can you identify that as George --  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Yes.  And that's George Muldoe's trapline?  35 A   Yes, Delgamuukw's hunting ground but they transfer it  36 to George.  And that's not only -- it's just some of  37 the main persons, elderly persons on there, but the  38 rest of the grandchildren and all them they are  39 supposed to be on there too, as well as the people in  40 there.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:   The next exhibit, my lord.  42 THE COURT:  550.  43  44 (EXHIBIT 550:  APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION OF  45 TRAPLINE, GEORGE MULDOE, DATED MAY 14, 1979)  46  47    MR. MACKENZIE:  And at 21 D there is a Band Council resolution 6478  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  A  of the Kispiox Band dated April 2, 1979, and this  appears to transfer a certain trapline from Albert  Tait to George Muldoe.  And one of the signatures of  the Band Council appears to be that of George Muldoe.  Can you identify that as George's signature on that  band council resolution?  Yes.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (EXHIBIT 551:  BAND COUNCIL RESOLUTION DATED  APRIL 2, 1979)  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   We are talking here about the trapline at Gwinageese,  aren't we?  A   Yes.  Q   And you call that area Gwinageese?  A   Gwinageese Territory, yes.  Q   And you testified about the cabin that you built  there?  A   Yes.  Q   And you built the cabin on the lake you call  Gwinageese Lake?  A   Yes.  Q   But the white people call it Fred Wright Lake?  A   Yes, that's the wrong name.  They call the next lake  from that Gwinageese, but it's wrong.  THE COURT:  Are all these people on Exhibit 550, Mr. Muldoe, are  George Muldoe, Albert Tait, Lloyd Muldoe, Earl Muldoe,  Samson Muldoe, Ken Muldoe, Ray Mowatt, Albert Mowatt,  Lottie Muldoe and Sadie Mowatt all in the House of  Delgamuukw?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  And George is what relation to you?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   George is your son?  A   George is my son, yes  Earl —  That's George and Lloyd and  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Earl  Yes.  9  is your son  Samson and Ken.  is your son  9  Ken  Yes.  And Lottie is your wife?  Yes.  Now, referring to tab 22 on that continuing relation  to that territory, at document 22 A, there appears to  be an application for Crown land by George Muldoe  dated June 27, 1980.  And this appears to be related 6479  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  Is that George Muldoe's  A  Q  THE COURT  to Fred Wright Lake,  signature on there?  Yes.  Yes.  Exhibit 552.  (EXHIBIT 552:  APPLICATION FOR CROWN LAND, GEORGE  MULDOE, DATED JUNE 27, 198 0)  Exhibit 552, 22 A.  REGISTRAR:  MACKENZIE:  Q   At document 22 C is a letter dated, apparently  September 3, 1982, to George Muldoe, relating to an  application for a licence to occupy certain land as  shown on an annexed sketch.  And there is a sketch  attached, which is part of document 22 C, and at page  ten of the document we are looking at what purports to  be an acceptance dated May 27, 1983, signed apparently  by George Muldoe.  Now, can you identify that as  George's signature again?  A   Yes.  MACKENZIE:  My lord, I submit the document, entire document  22 C pages one to 11 as the next exhibit.  RUSH:  One to 11?  THE COURT:  Seven to 11, isn't it?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Seven to 11.  Beg your pardon.  Rush.  Thank you, Mr.  (EXHIBIT 553:  TAB 22 C, LETTER DATED SEPTEMBER 3,  1982, TO G. MULDOE WITH ATTACHED SKETCH AND ACCEPTANCE  DATED MAY 27, 1983)  MACKENZIE:  Q   And looking at page 11, that shows the location of a  cabin just to the northeast of Fred Wright Lake,  that's the cabin you were speaking about; is that  right?  Yes, the river runs right outside of it here.  Pointing to the Gwinageese River?  Gwinageese river.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have that reference?  THE COURT:  Yes.  Now, my lord, there were two cabins mentioned in the  evidence and my friend says that's the cabin you were  speaking about.  Does he mean speaking about in  reference to this application or speaking about in  reference to what?  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH: 6480  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q   This is the location of the cabin that you and the  3 boys built?  4 A   Yes.  And all those cabins we built them all on our  5 own expense, we hauled all the material in there, we  6 have to rebuild the road before we got in there too.  7 And the bridge they had there, the forestry, rotted  8 down so the boys had to rebuild everything.  We even  9 take the Cat in there.  10 THE COURT:  This is the cabin where you showed us some  11 photographs of you and your grandsons inside the  12 cabin?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q   Did you show us pictures of that cabin?  15 A   Yes.  That's the other cabin.  The area is not shown  16 on this one.  Further north.  17 Q   The pictures were of the other cabin further north?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   So this cabin is the southern one?  20 A   Yeah.  That one is on the lake but the other is  21 between the lake and the river.  22 Q   And to orient this area, I think your lordship has the  23 orientation, but looking at the sketch on page 11 in  24 this exhibit, 53, your lordship can see Williams Lake  25 just in the lower right hand corner and of course  26 that's in the top northwest part of the plaintiffs'  27 Exhibit 486.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  So this is just off the plaintiffs' Exhibit 486  30 to the northwest.  31 THE COURT:  You say Williams Lake is shown on Exhibit 486?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, it's up in the very top — I am sorry, it's  33 in Territory I Antgulilbix, in the lower left-hand  34 part of Antgulilbix, Exhibit 486.  35 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   So now Ken has his own trapline?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And he is also a member of this trapline?  40 A  Also a member of that trapline.  41 Q   At Gwinageese?  42 A   Yes.  And even his children can have rights to trap in  43 there.  44 Q   Now Ken is a member of another trapline, isn't he?  45 A   Yes.  In a different territory.  46 Q   That's Ralph Michell's trapline, right?  I am speaking  47 about a third trapline now.  Now, you know Ralph 6481  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Michell is Wii Siiks?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And you know that he has a trapline up near the Bell-  4 Irving River?  5 A  Well, it's the former person that had that Bell-Irving  6 River.  I forget his name.  7 Q   Allan Brown?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   That's David Gunanoot's son?  10 A   He is adopted, yes.  11 Q   His adopted son?  12 A  Adopted, yes.  13 Q   And you arranged for that trapline or you asked for  14 that trapline to be transferred to Ralph Michell after  15 Allan Brown died, do you recall that?  16 A   No, I think it's David Gunanoot arranged all those  17 things.  But I think as far as I know, Ralph threw  18 that up because he didn't want anybody to bother him  19 out there.  20 Q   What did you say Ralph did?  21 A   He gave it up.  22 Q   He gave it up.  23 A   So many people talk about it, to say it belongs to  24 them, so I think he said he is going to give it up.  25 Q   Now that's tab 19.  26 A  All that area is all logged out now anyway.  You go up  27 in you see nothing but stumps.  28 Q   Whose territory is that, that's Johnny Wilson's,  29 Skiik'm laxha, is it not?  30 A   I am not too familiar with that territory.  31 Q   Skiik'm laxha is number 59 on the plaintiffs' list.  32 A   I think, I don't know, Jessie Sterritt is talking  33 about all that, Ralph or I don't know which names he  34 is holding.  I know the older person that they claimed  35 this own this is Skawill.  36 Q   That's Daniel Skawill.  37 A   Yes.  But somewhere or other if any of the Skiik'm  38 laxha spent money in there for a funeral feast or  39 something like that, that's when they pass the  40 trapping ground into the other person.  That's just  41 the way it happened that's, why Allan get ahold of  42 that and also David Gunanoot is in there.  43 Q   David Gunanoot is the Wolf Clan?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And look at tab 19, there is a letter here dated  46 October 1 —  47 6482  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  I think before you do that, Mr. Mackenzie, we will  2 take the morning adjournment, please.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  5  6  7  8  9 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  10 a true and accurate transcript of the  11 proceedings herein to the best of my  12 skill and ability.  13  14  15  16  17  18 Wilf Roy  19 Official Reporter  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 6483  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A MORNING ADJOURNMENT AT  11:33 A.M.)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  MACKENZIE:  My lord, before the adjournment, we were  speaking about a trapline area that Mr. Muldoe seems  to have indicated Ralph Michell was interested in at  one time, and I just -- and I think we know it is up  near the Bell Irving River, so I thought I'd now just  show your lordship where that is, that area.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  MACKENZIE:  And using Canada's map, may be a useful way to  do it.  I can ask people from Canada.  It's north-east  of -- north-east of Bowser Lake.  COURT:  North-east of Bowser Lake.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Does your lordship have Bowser Lake?  Go  directly north-east and my lordship will see the Bell  Irving River goes right down passed Bowser Lake, Bell  Irving River, quite a big river going right down  south-east of -- running directly south-east.  COURT:  I see -- I don't see the writing that identifies it.  MACKENZIE:  The title is directly north-east also and —  COURT:  Oh, yes, I see it.  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  If your lordship will then look at that, you  will see Taft Creek pointing into the Bell Irving  River directly north-east of Bowser Lake just above  the words Wildfire Range.  COURT:  No, I can't see it.  It is very difficult to see  that map with the light shining on it.  MACKENZIE: This is Bowser Lake and Taft Creek is right  here, just north-east of Bowser Creek. Does your  lordship have that reference?  COURT:  Yes, I have it.  MACKENZIE:  That's where this area is that we are speaking  of.  There is a map that we are --  COURT:  What you said to me in the territory of  Skiik'mlaxha --  MACKENZIE:  I am suggesting that's Skiik'mlaxha which is --  COURT:  Yes, all right.  MACKENZIE:  — which is number 59 on the plaintiff's list.  And, my lord, if your lordship will turn to tab 19, if  your lordship will turn to last page in that tab.  COURT:  Yes, 19F.  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  Your lordship will see the Taft  Creek going through this area which -- on which is  written Ralph Michell and at the bottom of the map 19F  1  2  3  4  THE  5  THE  6  MR.  7  8  9  10  11  12  THE  13  MR.  14  15  16  THE  17  MR.  18  19  20  21  22  THE  23  MR.  24  THE  25  MR.  26  27  28  29  THE  30  31  MR.  32  33  34  THE  35  MR.  36  37  THE  38  39  MR.  40  THE  41  MR.  42  43  44  THE  45  MR.  46  47 6484  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  is Bell Irving River.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  So your lordship has an idea of where that area  is?  COURT:  Yes, thank you.  What is the number for  Skiik'mlaxha?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  It is number 59 on the  plaintiff's list.  COURT:  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Q    And Skiik'mlaxha is Frog Clan?  A    Yes.  Who you say?  Q    Johnny Wilson, Skiik'mlaxha is Frog Clan?  A    Yeah, Johnny Wilson.  Q    Yes.  And Ralph Michell of course is Fireweed Clan?  A    Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Now, the reason I am asking you about this is  the letter at page 19B, it is a letter from the  Superintendent of the Indian Agency to Mr. Les Cox  dated October 2, 1970.  Does your lordship have that  reference?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Q    And in that letter in the third paragraph, Mr.  McFarlane, who's the Superintendent, says that Mr.  Gunanoot and Mr. Peter Muldoe were concerned about  getting the trapline registered in the name of a  person of their clan called at the office and  requested the line be registered in the name of Ralph  Michell, number 251, Moricetown Band.  So do you  recall going in to talk about that with David  Gunanoot?  A    I don't think I ever -- I don't think I ever go in  that -- probably to -- probably David might have  mentioned my name, but I don't think I go in.  Q    Tab 19D, there is what appears to be an application  for registration of a trapline in the name of Ralph  Michell and Company dated March 14, 1973, and looking  at the next page, the reverse, it looks as if Ken  Muldoe is a member of that trapline and it also  appears that this is the trap -- former trapline of  Allan Brown.  It's been cancelled because Allan Brown  was deceased.  Now, can you say whether -- can you  identify Ralph Michell's signature on that trapline?  Yes.  MR.  THE  A  MACKENZIE:  REGISTRAR:  Yes, next exhibit, my lord?  554, 19D. 6485  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (EX. 554 TAB 19D - APPLICATION REG. RALPH MICHELL  MARCH 14, 1973)  MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's right.  Referring to the map —  THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Muldoe, how does a member of the House of  Delgamuukw get an interest in a trapline and territory  of a Frog Clan?  MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, may I assist your lordship with that  question?  THE COURT:  Well, through the witness you might be able to.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q    Yes, in the sense that Ralph Michell is a member of  Fireweed Clan; isn't he?  A    Yes.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have that point?  THE COURT:  Who is?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Ralph Michell.  THE COURT:  Yes, he is Fireweed?  THE WITNESS:  He is one of my grandsons.  MR. MACKENZIE:  He is one of the witness's, Mr. Muldoe's,  grandsons.  Is your lordship's question about Ralph  Michell?  THE COURT:  No.  I was asking about Kenny Muldoe.  MR. MACKENZIE:  I beg your pardon, sorry.  THE COURT:  Who I understand is — I am sorry.  MR. MACKENZIE:  I beg your pardon.  THE COURT:  What clan is Delgamuukw?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q    Delgamuukw is the Frog Clan?  A    Yes.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q    And Ken Muldoe is a member of this Ralph Michell  trapline?  A    No.  Q    You don't think so?  A    No.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Oh.  THE COURT:  Well, you say that he is not a member of this  trapline?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q    You say Ken Muldoe is not a member of the trapline?  A    No, Frog Clan.  Q    He is Frog Clan but his name appears on the  application.  Do you know anything about that?  A    No.  The only thing that I know that I believe Ralph 6486  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 wants Ken to go out and trap but Ken don't bother with  2 that.  Never did go out there and I don't think ever  3 been out there.  4 THE COURT:  Let me ask the next question then.  Apart from Kenny  5 Muldoe, how does Ralph Michell of Fireweed get an  6 interest in a trapline that is in Frog Clan country?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q    How does Ralph Michell, Fireweed, get an interest in  9 a trapline in Frog Clan territory?  10 A    Well, I don't know too much about it but whatever  11 David Gunanoot tells of that is a true story but, from  12 me, this is way out of my territory so I don't know  13 anything about what has been going on and how they get  14 it and, as I told before, David spent more money on  15 that territory on some funeral case or David on  16 Allan's, that's how those things have been transferred  17 to them and that is before any registration was  18 started.  19 Q    And David is David Gunanoot?  20 A    Yes.  21 Q    He is Wolf Clan?  22 A    He is Wolf Clan, yes.  23 Q    And he adopted Allan Brown into the Wolf Clan?  24 A    Fireweed.  Allan Brown is a Fireweed but he is a  25 stepson.  26 Q    Oh, yes.  And Johnny Wilson, whose territory this  27 appears to be, is Frog Clan?  28 A    Yes.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, that's as far as I can take that.  30 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  31 MR. RUSH:  Does your lordship want to take the unidentified  32 portions of the tab out at this point?  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I am just going to ask the witness about  34 that, my lord.  35 THE COURT:  All right.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q    Here is a map of what appears to be a map of Ralph  38 Michell's trapline up there and you were saying that  39 there has been some logging up there; correct?  40 A    Yeah.  They log all the way along the highway there.  41 Q    So you have been up in that area?  42 A    I go up there once a year, go through it, picking  43 berries or go to Date Lake hunting.  44 Q    Can you identify this as Ralph Michell's trapline  45 area along Taft Creek?  46 A    It just mentions some of the creek name but I don't  47 know any part of that territory, any of the name.  I 6487  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 think the only name I know is those creeks as we are  2 going through the highway.  In other words, I don't  3 know anything about just where the boundary is and  4 that.  I don't know anything about it, about where the  5 boundaries are, or the name of the place or anything.  6 Just some of the creek that we going through like the  7 Taft Creek, Skawill Creek and all that.  8 Q    You know the name Taft Creek?  9 A    Bill Edward.  Just going through the highway, you  10 know, not stopping.  11 Q    You know the name Taft Creek?  12 A    Yeah, we passed through there.  13 Q    That's where Ralph had the trapline?  14 A    Yes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, I would submit that as the next  16 exhibit.  Mr. Muldoe has candidly said he doesn't know  17 the exact boundaries but he does know that's the area  18 around Taft Creek.  19 THE COURT:  Well, to say it is around Taft Creek is a far cry to  20 saying this has been proven to anything even closely  21 resembling the trapline.  I hadn't compared the leaps  22 and bounds description.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, looking at Exhibit 554 —  24 THE COURT:  I don't know why there is so much difficulty about  25 all this, but it seems to me this is a terribly  26 ponderous way to try and get some information but, if  27 I started at the mouth of the Taft Creek on the east  28 side of the Bell Irving River and I can do that, I  29 guess SLY means southerly along the Bell Irving River  30 to junction of said river and south something of  31 something 73.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, that's where we start to have some  33 problems, my lord.  These are the administrative  34 boundaries.  If your lordship is looking at the map  35 19F, you will see the number 73 right in the middle of  36 the Ralph Michell territory and that, I am instructed,  37 relates to the boundaries -- the areas surrounded by  38 these boundaries and heights of land and river, et  39 cetera.  40 THE COURT:  They go easterly, northerly and westerly and  41 southerly.  I don't know how you do that.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's following the dotted line there, my lord,  43 if your lordship -- on the map at 19F.  44 THE COURT:  I see.  What does CPT mean?  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Southern boundary of compartment 73, my lord, I  46 am instructed.  47 THE COURT:  That takes me to the Bell Irving River.  I just left 6488  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 the Bell Irving River.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  You go right around to the Bell Irving River, my  3 lord.  Right around the boundary of compartment 73  4 back to the Bell Irving River.  And so, my lord, your  5 lordship having undergone that journey shown on the  6 map at 19F appears to be correspondence between the  7 map and the description.  8 THE COURT:  I think there is a sufficient connection that some  9 other evidence makes wind at some point that I  10 wouldn't remove the map at this point but I wouldn't,  11 nor would I make it a part of the exhibit at this  12 time.  I may be able to make some sense of it.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q    Now, can you say, Mr. Muldoe, who else is claiming  15 this territory?  You said other people are claiming  16 it?  17 A    I think the one there is mentioned about -- who's  18 his name.  19 Q    Johnny Wilson?  20 A    Yes, Johnny Wilson and their family, I think.  21 Q    Do you know that the Nisga'a people are claiming  22 this territory as well?  23 A    No.  They don't go up there.  24 Q    And Ralph hasn't been up there logging, has he?  25 A    No.  26 Q    I am sorry?  27 A    He went up there with the swede saw.  28 Q    He went up there with a swede saw.  Ralph hasn't  29 been up there -- Ralph Michell hasn't been up there  30 trapping, has he?  31 A    No.  32 Q    And finally tab 11, referring to document 11C now.  33 This is a map which has the name Joseph Starr printed  34 in the centre of the map and through the centre of the  35 map runs the Deep Canoe Creek from -- apparently from  36 west to east, and on the map is indicated Dominion  37 Telegraph Trail.  And also the Skeena River appears in  38 that map apparently flowing from north to south and up  39 to the north-east is an indication of Kuldo Indian  40 Reserve.  Now, is that the area that Joe Starr's  41 trapline covered generally speaking?  42 A    Yeah.  That's the area what -- what is shown in  43 there.  It doesn't show the proper -- the proper  44 boundary of where it goes in there.  It is in the same  45 area but it doesn't cover in the same boundary.  And  46 also in here, it's Delgamuukw's territory right next  47 to this one, when you have Chris Skulsh in there, 6489  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Chris Skulsh.  Gwiiyeehl is now below Delgamuukw.  2 Q    You are referring to the name of Chris Skulsh at the  3 bottom of this document 11C, aren't you?  4 A    Yes.  Delgamuukw had a line between there and  5 Gwiiyeehl.  6 Q    I am going to ask you about that, but you recall  7 that Chris Skulsh had the line that's shown here south  8 of Joe Starr's line, didn't he?  9 A    No.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  He had the trapline.  You don't recall that?  11 MR. RUSH:  No.  He said, no, he didn't.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q    Yes, so you don't recall that?  You don't recall  14 Chris Skulsh having the line as shown on here south of  15 Joe Starr's line?  You remember that now?  16 A    Well, this map doesn't seem to be correct to me.  17 Q    Okay.  Just asking you a question now about this  18 map.  You recall that Chris Skulsh had the trapline  19 just south of Joe Starr's trapline?  20 A    Well, Chris Skulsh used to go out with his  21 grandfather the former Delgamuukw, and he used to go  22 up from here up this way somewhere.  23 Q    And do you recall that Ken Muldoe took over Chris  24 Skulsh's trapline?  25 A    Yes.  He took over former Delgamuukw's.  26 Q    Yes.  Now, Chris Skulsh's grandfather was whom?  27 A    Former Delgamuukw, Isaac Skulsh.  28 Q    So that's the trapline that we are speaking about.  29 It was Isaac Skulsh, then Chris Skulsh, and now Ken  30 Muldoe; correct?  31 A    Yes.  32 Q    So on this map 11C is where the trapline was  33 located; isn't it?  34 A    Mm-hmm.  35 Q    Yes.  And we are still referring to 11C, document  36 11C.  The line showing above Joseph Starr's line is  37 Richard Benson.  Now, you know Richard Benson, don't  38 you?  39 A    Yes.  40 Q    He is Luus, L-u-u-s?  41 A   A lot of people been --  42 Q    Yeah, he is Luus now?  43 A    No.  44 Q    He is in the House of Luus?  45 A    He is in the House of Luus.  46 Q    Luus is number 42 on the plaintiff's list, and you  47 are right, it is Jeff Harris Sr. who is Luus? 6490  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A    Yes.  2 Q    Yes.  And that's the Wolf Clan?  3 A    Yes.  4 Q    And that area has been Wolf Clan territory, hasn't  5 it, for some time?  6 A    It's from the Kuldo, along the Kuldo mountain on the  7 height of land; be about three miles from the Skeena,  8 that's where the Kuldo lands going up from there.  But  9 other words, the Fireweed is all along the river.  10 Q    You will agree with me that's Richard Benson's  11 trapline?  12 A    Richard Benson is on the north side -- on the north  13 side of that.  14 Q    Of Joe Starr?  15 A    Yes.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, so Richard Benson's trapline now goes into  17 the Wiigyet territory, doesn't it, as shown on Exhibit  18 486?  19 MR. RUSH:  Is the question there, my lord, that the map that's  20 been referred to the witness indicates that there is a  21 trapline belonging to Richard Benson that it goes into  22 the Wiigyet territory?  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  I think that's the question.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q    Now, just following up on that question.  On the  26 map, Exhibit 486, Wiigyet territory goes along the  27 Skeena River?  28 A    Yes.  29 Q    And it passes across Kuldo Creek?  30 A    Yes.  31 Q    Doesn't it?  32 A    Yes.  33 Q    And then it passes along passed Kuldo Indian  34 Reserve, doesn't it?  35 A    Yes.  36 Q    Can you agree with me that Richard Benson's trapline  37 comes down to the Skeena River near the Kuldo Indian  3 8              Reserve?  39 A    No.  They don't come right down this.  I have been  40 told from former Luus that mountain goes -- Kuldo  41 mountain goes right along here and there is a little  42 creek comes down right in here apart from -- with  43 three miles from the Skeena River, and that's where  44 the boundary is, and also the other boundary comes up  45 to the little Kuldo Creek and comes all the way around  46 it down to Dam Tsim Axs.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mr. Muldoe is referring to Exhibits 486 and he 6491  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 was following around the boundary of the Wiigyet  2 territory in the area of Kuldo Creek and proceeding  3 west from there.  4 MR. RUSH:  To Dam Tsim Axs.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  To Dam Tsim Axs which is shown on Exhibit 486.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q    Well, I think we are at cross purposes again, but  9 before I go into that in any more detail, perhaps I  10 could ask you to now agree -- I think you already  11 have -- that this is the area of Joseph Starr's  12 trapline and his neighbours?  13 A    Yes.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  So, my lord, I submit that document as the next  15 exhibit.  16 THE COURT:  Any objection?  17 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, you know, my friend could have asked  18 me all the same questions, I could have agreed with  19 the document, but I don't know how that makes it an  20 exhibit.  21 THE COURT:  Well, I think it is some evidence of the location  22 and some of the physical features of Joseph Starr's  23 trapline in which seems to be the source of some of  24 the rights that this witness claims.  It may be that  25 trapline registrations don't mean anything in this  26 case or it may be very significant, I really don't  27 have any way of knowing at this point.  But it also  28 locates this area to the Kuldo Indian Reserve which is  29 a convenient reference point that permits me to  30 transpose certain locations from one map to another  31 and, for that reason, I think it can be marked as an  32 exhibit.  It doesn't prove anything except the  33 relative positions of some of these locations to  34 others, but I think it is of some use in that regard  35 and I see no reason why it shouldn't be marked as an  36 exhibit.  I think it may be the next exhibit.  37 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 555.  38  39 (EXHIBIT 555 TAB 11C - MAP JOSEPH STARR TRAPLINE)  40  41 THE COURT:  Is that the right name, the Dominion Government  42 Line, or is there something else there?  I can't read  43 it.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, it does say Dominion Government Line on  45 there.  4 6 THE COURT:  Fine.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  I can't answer that question except in the most 6492  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 general way to say that I am aware of several names  2 for that:  Dominion Telegraph Trail, Dominion  3 Government Line, Yukon Telegraph Trail, and other  4 designations.  5 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Does it actually go out into  6 the river, run alongside that little island and back  7 again?  It seems like that's a very steep canyon  8 there.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q    Let's look at this trail.  On this map we were  11 looking at Exhibit 555, is that the general or  12 approximate location of the Telegraph Trail?  13 A    Just about where the trail is but some of the lakes  14 are not in there, showing any lake at all; doesn't  15 even show where Deadhorse Lake is.  16 Q    Does the trail go along the west bank of the Skeena  17 River up towards Kuldo?  18 A    It goes along the west bank of the Skeena River  19 until you get into -- just about into Kuldo Creek,  20 then goes up about mile up, then it crosses the creek  21 from there and, from there, it goes right through the  22 Kuldo Reserve.  23 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't think it goes in the river, my lord.  25 THE COURT:  All right.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  But that trail is also shown, as Mr. Rush  27 pointed out, our approximation is also shown in  28 Exhibit 486 in that area.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q    That is on the base map to Exhibit 486.  Just to  32 finish off with Exhibit 555, down at the bottom of  33 that Exhibit 555 is Fritz Harris' name.  Now, do you  34 see that?  35 A    Yes.  36 Q    He was your father-in-law?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    And his chief's name was Luus?  39 A    No, Frog Clan.  40 Q    Yes.  He was Frog Clan?  Was he Delgamuukw?  41 A    Just don't remember that, what name he was using.  42 He wasn't Delgamuukw.  43 Q    That's right, he was Frog Clan.  And do you recall  44 that's the area where he had his trapline generally  45 south of --  46 A    Well, yes.  It's in -- it is the west side of Joe  47 Starr's territory.  It is on the west side of it. 6493  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q    And the final name is hard to read but I think it  2 says Jonathan Johnson.  Now, Jonathan Johnson was  3 Wii'muglusxw?  4 A    Wii'muglusxw, that's correct.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's number 78 on the plaintiff's list.  6 THE COURT:  78?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q    Yes, my lord.  He was Wolf Clan?  9 A    He was Wolf Clan, yes.  10 Q    Yes.  Looking over to the south-east of Joseph Starr  11 we have Austin Matthew.  Now, Austin Matthew was in  12 the House of Gwoimt; wasn't he?  13 A    Yes.  14 Q    That's number 21 on your lordship's list.  And  15 that's a Wolf Clan?  16 A    Yes.  17 Q    From Kisgagas?  18 A    (Nod)  19 Q    Yes.  Do you know that that line is now held by Fred  20 Wale?  21 A    Yes.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  23 THE COURT:  How do you spell Fred Wale?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  W-a-l-e, my lord.  2 5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q    And Fred Wale's mother is Kathleen Wale.  Do you  28 know that?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    And her name is -- her chief's name is Gwoimt?  31 A    Don't -- never remember -- know her name.  32 Q    Again, Gwoimt was number 21 on the plaintiff's list.  33 Now, are you aware that Fred Wale's trapline comes  34 into Wiigyet's territory just above Carrigan Creek?  35 A    Yes, just comes in little piece in there, just a  36 little piece in here, but his other territories comes  37 right from An laga Sim deek and also I believe he  38 covered some of Wale's territory on the south side of  39 it on part of it Tsuwinhl Geets.  He went over too far  40 on that.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  We have to get the spellings on those now.  You  42 said the name of -- what was the first name you said?  43 THE INTERPRETER:  An laga Sim deek.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q    Can we get the spelling of that?  Is that the old  46 village?  47 A    It is an old village in there, just below Kisgagas 6494  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Village.  2 Q    On the Babine River?  3 A    On the Babine River, on the left-hand side coming  4 down.  5 Q    That's an old Gitksan village just west of Kisgagas;  6 correct?  7 A    Yes.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just getting the spelling of that, my lord.  9 THE SPELLER:  A-n space 1-a-g-a space S-i-m space d-e-e-k  10 underline.  11 THE COURT:  Thank you.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  I have some more questions on that but there  13 were some more words, weren't there?  14 THE SPELLER:  The other one is T-s-u-w-i-n-h-1 space G-e-e-t-s.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  And which one was that?  16 THE SPELLER:  Tsuwinhl Geets?  17 THE INTERPRETER:  Tsuwinhl Geets.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q    You were referring -- you were referring to the  20 boundaries of the Gwoimt trapline, weren't you?  21 A    Yes, but I was referring to just along the Skeena,  22 not the whole works.  23 Q    I want you to help me here because his lordship may  24 not have follow the question that I -- I mean, the  25 point of the question that I was asking you.  I was  26 asking you about Exhibit 486 in the Wiigyet territory,  27 territory B, and you agree with me now that that Fred  28 Wale trapline now comes into the Wiigyet territory and  29 around Cutoff Mountain; correct?  30 A    Just that little piece there.  31 Q    Comes in around Carrigan Creek?  32 A    Carrigan Creek.  33 MR. RUSH:  Where did he point to?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q    He pointed to south of Carrigan Creek.  That's  36 Gwoimt's territory; isn't it?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    I am speaking about Gwoimt's, Fred Wale's, trapline?  39 A    I wouldn't know where his trapline is because I  40 haven't been in there.  Travel through this there and  41 that's it.  42 Q    You didn't know that Fred Wale has a trapline,  43 registered trapline, around Cutoff Mountain in  44 Wiigyet's territory?  45 A    No, never heard of it.  My Uncle Joe Starr went out  4 6 trapping with Austin Matthew but they never came  47 across on the west side of the Skeena.  They stayed 6495  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 right on the east side of the Skeena, and they were  2 there for I don't know how many times because Joe  3 Starr's out from Gwoimt's family.  4 Q    Gwoimt is number 21 on the plaintiff's list.  Joe  5 Starr came from that family?  6 A    Yes, his father is, I think.  7 Q    Well, now that we are speaking about Gwoimt, I have  8 another series of questions to ask you, and they  9 relate to the territory shown on your Exhibit 486,  10 around the Nangeese River and have you been up -- you  11 walked passed there once?  12 A    I walked passed there and also I worked in there  13 with a cat pushing in road for the -- some of the  14 people that had the timber licence up there.  I think  15 it was Twin River or something like that.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have the location of Nangeese  17 River?  18 THE COURT:  Well, I have heard of it but I have forgotten.  Can  19 you tell me again?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q    It is just between the two Geel territories, that's  22 a territory 0 and territory N.  There is a steep  23 valley there, the Nangeese Valley.  There is a couple  24 of questions I have on that, though.  25 First of all, when were you working up in that  26 area with your cat?  27 A    Yes.  28 Q    When was that?  29 A    I forgot just what year it was.  When we are not  30 operating -- somewhere around -- that's the 60's I  31 think when I was up there.  I just don't recall the  32 year.  33 Q    And you think you were working for the Twin River  34 Logging Company?  35 A    Yeah.  36 THE COURT:  Was that your company?  37 THE WITNESS:  Twin River.  38 THE COURT:  That was your company?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 0 Q    Was that your company?  41 A    Well, that's the same company supplying the lumber  42 to.  43 Q    Yes.  You were supplying lumber to that company;  44 weren't you?  45 A    Mostly just lumber.  4 6 Q    You were supplying lumber to that company from your  47 timber limit north of Kispiox? 6496  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A    Yes.  2 Q    At 19 Mile?  3 A    Yes.  4 Q    And then later they came in and they logged off the  5 area for you?  6 A    Yes.  7 Q    When you lost your equipment?  8 A    Yes.  What happened in there, when I was in there, I  9 have that -- all that lumber along the -- along the  10 river.  11 Q    Along the Skeena River?  12 A    Yes.  And then top part of that boundary, if I had  13 the map, I could draw you a map right out of it, and  14 they have all the little timber -- parts of the little  15 timber to use for seedling, and the bottom part, they  16 have timber about a hundred yards wide or more, and it  17 runs up to about a mile each, all the way along on the  18 foreign parts.  Then the part of the timber, on the  19 upper part, must be about 160 acre and they said those  20 timber are immacured.  And the timber --  21 Q    Do you mean immature?  22 A    Yeah.  They said it was immatured.  They said it was  23 too young to log.  The forest is open so they just  24 left a seedling in there and I build a road all the  25 way from the camp and I hired -- hire something to  26 build right down to the river.  They had another road  27 where my mill site, then I build it down to the river.  28 One of my son, Earl, build that river.  29 Q    You were speaking -- sorry.  30 A    When -- after he took over everything, just a few  31 months later, the Forestry just let them have all this  32 patches where they wouldn't let me log and even the  33 place where they said it was immatured, they let them  34 log it off and they clean everything off and, when I  35 was up there, they told me not to log everything off.  36 Q    You were speaking of the timber limit at 19 Mile?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    Just referring to Nangeese River again.  What sort  39 of an operation was going on there?  40 A    It was logging.  And it is all clear cut log there.  41 Q    Okay.  Now, in your affidavit, you say that --  42 perhaps I will rephrase that question.  You say that  43 the Kitwancool people own that valley, don't you?  44 A    That's right.  We have quite a few court about that  45 and actually the Wale family got nothing to do.  It  46 belong to Kitwancool just at a little place of land in  47 there. 6497  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q    Referring to tab 20, my lord.  Now, just before we  2 look at the documents there, Mr. Muldoe, you came back  3 to Kispiox about 1931; didn't you?  4 A    Yes.  5 Q    And you went up into this area with Albert Tait  6 about 1933; is that correct?  7 A    Something like that.  8 Q    Now, when you were -- you were about 23 years old  9 then; weren't you?  10 A    Oh, more than that.  11 Q    Well, you were in your 20's; weren't you?  12 A    Over 20.  Twenty-five or something, 27, 30.  Like I  13 say, no more than 26.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  You knew about the disputes over that valley;  15 don't you?  16 THE COURT:  I am sorry, which valley?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q    Nangeese Valley, my lord.  You know about the  19 disputes over the Nangeese Valley?  20 A    I heard about it.  I have been told about it by  21 former Luus and I have been told about it by Jonathan  22 Johnson.  He trapped right next to that, not too far  23 from there.  24 Q    And tell me if I am wrong now, but what happened in  25 1932 was Amos Williams from Kitwancool claimed that  26 valley, didn't he?  27 A    I wouldn't know about it.  That's all I hear about  28 it is when they said they would be mad somebody  29 dispute about it, about who owns the territory, but  30 they had a court over that and I think the -- some of  31 the Kispiox people, they prove that place belongs to  32 Kitwancool and that's all I know about it.  I don't  33 know how they go about it and I wouldn't know who owns  34 it now.  35 Q    Okay.  Now, the people from Kitwancool claim that  36 valley; don't they?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    And the people from Kispiox; that is, Gwoimt's  39 family also claimed the valley; didn't they?  40 A    They claim it but I don't think they claim it after  41 they lost the court in there.  42 Q    Okay.  And they brought their dispute to the game  43 ward; didn't they?  4 4 A    Maybe.  45 Q    I am sorry?  4 6 A    I wouldn't know knowing about it.  47 Q    I don't — 649?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A    The dispute maybe before my time.  2 Q    They brought their dispute before the Indian Agent,  3 didn't they?  4 A    I wouldn't know it.  5 Q    They -- you heard that?  6 A    I just been told about.  7 Q    Yes.  And you and the people who have told you  8 passed away?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    And some of them are the informants in your  11 affidavit, such as Jonathan Johnson?  12 A    Jonathan Johnson and Luus.  13 Q    Luus, and who was that?  14 A    Robert Wilson.  All of them.  They all know all  15 about this place.  16 Q    But they told you that the matter had gone to court?  17 A    Yes.  18 Q    And they told you that it was Gwoimt's family that  19 was part of the dispute?  20 A    Yes.  21 Q    And that's Austin Matthews' family; isn't it?  22 A    Yes, same family.  23 Q    That's Charles Johnson's family?  24 A    Who?  25 Q    Charles Johnson.  Do you know Charles Johnson also  2 6 known as Charles Gwoimt?  27 A    Charles Gwoimt is Fireweed.  28 Q    Yes.  Do you know -- did you know Moses Gwoimt?  2 9 A    I don't know him.  30 Q    No.  And Freddie Wale is in that Gwoimt House now,  31 isn't he?  32 A    I don't know.  33 Q    Yes?  34 A    I wouldn't know anything that way in the past.  35 Q    I am asking you now Fred Wale today is in Gwoimt's  36 house; isn't he?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    I just want to ask you what the information you have  39 about that dispute is?  Now, your informants told you  40 it went to a court?  41 A    Yes.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  And did they tell you it went to the Indian  43 Agent?  44 MR. RUSH: Isn't this all hearsay?  45 THE WITNESS:  I wouldn't know who was in there and —  46 THE COURT:  Getting close to it.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am, to use my friend, Mr. Rush's, terminology, 6499  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 I am very surprised that he would say that; that he  2 would even have the temerity to make that objection.  3 MR. RUSH:  Well, I have, quite temerarious.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, the entire affidavit that this witness  5 has filed consists of information received by the very  6 persons that he's referred to in this evidence and  7 this is directly related to the evidence in that  8 affidavit which says that this area is Kitwancool  9 area.  It deals with a dispute which is -- which is  10 set out in some detail in the archival documents which  11 is at this tab.  12 THE COURT:  Well, let me ask Mr. Rush this:  If you put in  13 evidence what someone said to the witness, Mr. Rush,  14 is it not competent for counsel to cross-examine and  15 say what else did that person tell you?  16 MR. RUSH:  But I didn't put any evidence about what somebody  17 told this witness about this.  18 THE COURT:  I am taking Mr. Mackenzie's statement of counsel  19 that much of his affidavit, in particular a reference  20 to an individual territory now which I am not aware of  21 at the moment, is based on what these people told him.  22 MR. RUSH:  Well, yes, that's right.  But the whole question of  23 the admissibility of reputation evidence meeting  24 certain standards of reputation that we debated last  25 summer, and a key part of the debate, a key part that  26 was taken by my learned friend senior, Mr. Goldie, on  27 the issue of the recentness of reputation evidence and  28 the ruling was in respect of evidence that was led by  29 Mr. Grant about -- from Mrs. McKenzie concerning an  30 event in 1931 is that events of that recent origin do  31 not fall within the Adaawk if that -- those events  32 could be proved by other means and the whole point, my  33 lord, of our argument at that time was to try to  34 convince you that reputation evidence of oral history  35 could have an expensive meaning and could include  36 events which occurred in a more recent time.  You  37 rejected that.  38 Now, this is an event said to happen in 1931 or  39 '32, and my friend is advancing it on the basis that  40 he was told -- that is, Mr. Muldoe was told about  41 these incidents by some of the informants who are  42 named in the affidavits and that is true and those  43 people are deceased.  Does that meet the  44 qualifications that you established in terms of the  45 admissibility of the reputation evidence that  46 reputation evidence it has been tested in the  47 community has been tested in terms of having been 6500  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 mentioned at feasts, and having been mentioned by  2 other people?  And my point here is that it doesn't  3 come within the exception which you established for  4 the admissibility of oral history.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord —  7 THE COURT:  Before you say anything further, Mr. Mackenzie, are  8 you asking the witness specifically about what he has  9 been told by people now deceased about a dispute over  10 territory that's not in issue in this action?  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's — it is not an issue in this action in  12 that it's not included within the land claims area,  13 but it is an issue in this action insofar as the  14 disputants are part of the Gitksan people, and this of  15 course is relevant to the whole question of reputation  16 evidence, because this story or this dispute goes back  17 many generations according to the archival documents  18 and the testimony in the archival documents made by  19 some of the people who were the informants apparently  20 of Mr. Muldoe, so that's one aspect of the relevance  21 to this action, my lord.  22 THE COURT:  Well, I am having trouble seeing what the benefit of  23 it is and it may be that it doesn't appear at this  24 stage.  If there was a dispute going back many, many  25 years over in the Nangeese Valley or which I take it  26 we have been hearing about, does it really matter if  27 the plaintiffs now concede that the area belongs to  28 non-plaintiffs?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  It goes to the question of the boundaries  30 anywhere, my lord, because the point is that the  31 registered trapline in that area is held by the  32 Gitksan people who are parties to the dispute and it  33 also deals with the question of Gitksan law because  34 the whole dispute involved the killing of a great  35 grandfather and the handing over of the territory to  36 the Gitksan people as a peace offering for time of  37 memorial, and now we have maps being produced saying  38 that this is not Gitksan territory.  39 THE COURT:  You say it is a matter of oral history that this  40 property -- this territory was given by the Kitwancool  41 to the Gitksan as compensation?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I am saying that that's the  43 evidence that was -- that was given at the -- on the  44 occasion that Mr. Muldoe speaks and that the situation  45 since those days is that the area has been a  46 registered trapline in the hands of the Gitksan  47 people. 6501  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. RUSH:  Well, firstly, the Kitwancool are Gitksan people,  2 they are not plaintiffs in the court case, and that's  3 the first distinction to draw.  That area is outside  4 of the claim by the Gitksan people who are the  5 plaintiffs in the court case.  In my submission, it is  6 neither here nor there that there might be a trapline  7 there and, if there is a trapline there, it's  8 immaterial to the question of the admissibility of  9 this evidence.  The question is in -- under what rule  10 does this evidence come in as an exception to the  11 hearsay, and I think it must satisfy your lordship as  12 we have had to satisfy you or attempt to satisfy you  13 about the admissibility of hearsay evidence on the  14 basis of it being reputation of information within the  15 community and tested by the standards of that  16 community under requirements of necessity.  And I  17 don't think this evidence fits that.  I don't think,  18 my lord -- I think it is consistent with what you  19 ruled last June in keeping out the evidence or  20 rejecting the admissibility of evidence pertaining to  21 the feast that Mary McKenzie was going to speak about.  22 THE COURT:  I understand this goes back much beyond 1930's.  It  23 goes back into the -- because I don't know when this  24 compensation package was put together.  Do you know,  25 Mr. Mackenzie, or what would the evidence be if you  26 were allowed to call it?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  It was in the time of the grandparents of the  28 people who were 80 years old in 1932, as I understand.  29 THE COURT:  It is not going back to 1932, it is going back well  30 beyond that.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Sorry, when this came to the court, Mr. Muldoe  32 raised this point first and that's what led me to --  33 he spoke about the dispute and that's what led me to  34 the dispute.  35 THE COURT:  I don't think you can blame Mr. Muldoe.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't mean to blame him.  I mean to say that's  37 how it arose.  38 THE COURT:  I think I have to hear the evidence before I can  39 rule on it and I think I am going to have to do that.  40 You remind me, please, Mr. Mackenzie when you finish  41 this part of it and if you don't, Mr. Rush will, and I  42 will then have to deal with it.  We will adjourn now.  43 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  44  45 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:32 P.M.)  46  47 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 6502  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 a true and accurate transcript of the  2 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  3 best of my skill and ability.  4  5  6  7  9 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  10 United Reporting Service Ltd.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 6503  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (Proceedings resumed at 2 o'clock p.m.)  2  3 THE COURT:  Yes, Mr. Mackenzie?  4  5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:   (Continued)  6  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, you know Silas Johnson, didn't you?  9 A   Yes, I know Silas.  10 Q   You went, in 1933, with him up into the Delgamuukw  11 Territory?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Did you know he had a trapline on Nangeese Creek?  14 A   They had a trapline on Sweet In River.  15 Q   Did you know Charles Johnson?  16 A   I know Charles Johnson.  17 Q   Is he related to Silas?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   In what way?  20 A   I don't know just how he is related, but he was in the  21 same family anyway.  22 THE COURT:  What was the first name?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Charles, my lord.  24 THE COURT:  Charles Johnson.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 6 Q   And did you know Charles Johnson was from Gwoimt?  27 A  As far as I know, he is in Geel's House.  28 THE COURT:  I am sorry, in whose house?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Geel.  3 0 THE COURT:  Geel.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Number 80 the plaintiffs' list.  32 Q   Now, referring to tab 20, I have just handed up a map  33 which should be at the beginning of tab 20 in the blue  34 volume, this map is an excerpt from a trial Exhibit  35 455.  Trial Exhibit 455 appears in its entirety at tab  36 C of this blue binder.  And trial Exhibit 455 shows a  37 the trapline throughout this area in the western part  38 of the land claim and in the Kitwancool Valley.  And I  39 refer you to the area now in this map at tab 20  40 surrounding the Nangeese River and I am instructed  41 that has been given a trapline designation 0630T022.  42 The Sweet In River is just on the left hand --  43 correction, right-hand side of this map, do you see  44 that?  That's the Sweet In River?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Now, who has the trapline along the Nangeese River, do  4 7 you know? 6504  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I wouldn't know who owns that.  2 THE COURT:  I don't see the Sweet In River — yes, I do.  I have  3 it, thank you.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Your lordship will see that this is the tongue  5 of land that sticks up between the two Geels on  6 Exhibit 486.  7 Q   Going over to, I am going to skip over the dispute for  8 a moment and go over to document 2 0 B, this appears to  9 be an application for registration of a trapline dated  10 March 10, 1949, in the name of Silas Johnson.  Now, my  11 lord, just referring to the map we were looking at at  12 tab 20, if your lordship will kindly refer to that map  13 and the description of the trapline, the description  14 of the trapline on Silas Johnson's application appears  15 to correspond with the boundary of the area designated  16 as 630T022 on the Nangeese River.  And just as a quick  17 means of comparison, your lordship will see Lot 679 in  18 the lower right hand corner of the map just over from  19 Flat Fish Lake, and that's where the trapline  20 description commences at a point on the Kispiox River  21 about one mile upstream from Lot 679 and then goes  22 north seven and a half miles, then west six and five-  23 eighths miles to the height of land, then  24 southeasterly along the height of land 12 miles to a  25 latitude 55 degrees, 39 north, and longitude, 128 to  26 26 west, and thence northeasterly to three miles to  27 the point of commencement including intervening  28 territory.  29 THE COURT:  Well, I can't follow that on this map, Mr.  30 Mackenzie.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, and having read it over, and it —  32 there appears to be a distinction at the end of that,  33 between the trapline boundary and the description at  34 the end of that area.  So, I think I will have to just  35 move on to the trapline dispute or the hunting ground  36 dispute.  37 Q   Did you know that Charles Johnson had a trapline in  38 this area, that is, the Nangeese River area?  39 A   No, he didn't have no trapline in that Nangeese area.  40 That belongs to the Kitwancool.  They don't go in  41 there.  42 Q   I am just going to speak about this dispute again, and  43 referring to page 79 in the document number 20 A, now,  44 you knew Abel Oakes, didn't you?  45 A   I know a few years but he died a long time ago.  46 Q   He was from the House of Gwoimt?  47 A   Yes.  I believe he is a former Gwoimt. 6505  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40    ]  MR. RUSH  41    ]  MR. mack:  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  Gwoimt is number 21 on the plaintiffs' list.  Now, in this document at page 79, Abel Oakes  appears to have said that the Kitwancool people killed  Phillip Johnson's grandfather in the Nangeese River  area; did you ever hear about that?  No.  And he said that Kitwancool people as compensation  then handed over the Nangeese hunting ground to Moses  Gwoimt's family, did you hear about that?  No.  And he says according to Indian law, a trapline given  as a peace offering because of a killing stands  forever; is that true?  I wouldn't know anything about that.  I am asking you that now, is that a true statement of  Gitksan law, according to Indian law a trapline given  as a peace offering because of a killing stands  forever?  In someplaces they do that, but if the thing is not  true they don't go by that.  But that's the law, isn't it?  That's the law.  Now, you heard that from your informants that have  passed away that the dispute went to court, correct?  That's right.  I heard about that.  Do you know when it went to court?  I wouldn't know where they go to settle that dispute,  whether they go to the DIA or go to Wildlife or  anything like that, I wouldn't know where they go to  settle that.  And now at the bottom of his comments on page 79, Abel  Oakes describes where the hunting ground is and he  says, in summary, that it includes all of the area  around Nangeese Creek.  Now, did you know Samuel  Johnson?  Yes.  And where did you know him from?  From Kispiox.  Samuel Johnson says that --  No, it's reported that he said.  JZIE:  It's reported that Samuel Johnson said that this  gentleman, this great grandfather, received three  warnings in the Nangeese River and then he was shot.  Did Samuel Johnson ever tell you about that?  No.  Did you ever hear about that? it,  what was  ago.  I seen  He died  6506  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   No.  2 Q   And Samuel Johnson is reported to have said the  3 Kitwancool people after the shooting had to give over  4 the hunting ground as a peace offering, did you know  5 about that?  6 A   It was way before my time and I wouldn't know anything  7 about what's going on there.  8 Q   But the dispute in the court is during your time,  9 after you came back from Kispiox -- you came back to  10 Kispiox?  11 A   I don't remember hearing anything about  12 going on there.  13 Q   And did you know James White?  14 A   Yes, I seen him but he died a long time  15 him, but I don't know what year he died.  16 quite a while ago.  17 Q   He died in 1941 about?  18 A   It could be.  19 Q   Yes.  And James White also says that his great  20 grandmother told him about the shooting, and that the  21 Kitwancool had to forfeit their hunting ground after  22 the shooting, did James white ever say anything about  23 that to you?  24 A   I never even talked to James White.  25 Q   But you did know Charles Johnson, didn't you?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Was his name also Charles Gwoimt?  28 A   I don't know where, he is an older man than I am.  29 Q   Was he about 45 years old in 1932?  30 A   It could be more than that, I guess.  31 Q   Okay.  And you also knew Henry Aluux, didn't you?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Okay.  So, I think we have come to the point where all  34 you know is that there was a dispute; is that correct?  35 A   Yes, that's all I know about it.  36 Q   And all you know is that the dispute went to some  37 court?  38 A   Yes, some, went to some court but where they settled I  39 don't know where.  40 Q   And you knew the dispute related to the Nangeese  41 River?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Did you also know that the dispute was between the  44 Kitwancool people and the House of Gwoimt?  45 A   Yes, that's what I hear.  46 Q   And how did you hear the dispute had been settled?  47 A  Well, they were always talking about anything like 6507  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  that, they talk about it amongst some of the elderly  people, but I never asked questions about why or how  they settled these things.  Do you know George Wesley from Glen Vowell?  Yes, I think I know George Wesley.  Are you aware he has a trapline up on the Nangeese  River?  No.  We have been talking about the Nangeese River, and you  have said the Kitwancool people claim that, didn't  you?  Yes.  You are also aware that they claim the Sweet In River,  correct?  I seen the map there when they overlaps, but what that  map is is a true map.  You know that the Kitwancool people claim the Sweet In  River?  I see it on the map that they claim the Sweet In River  and also further down, but I don't know how they  settle that one.  In your evidence you spoke also about the fact that  the Kitwancool people once claimed Mount Baldy too,  correct?  Yes.  My lord, when he said that he -- the true map, he was  pointing at the map in front of him.  I didn't think he identified the map.  They was always talking about when they claimed Baldy.  He was speaking about another map but when he said  what the true map was he was pointing to the one in  front of him.  All right.  Were you referring to that map that Mr.  Mackenzie has in front of you as the true map.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Did you say this was the true map?  A   Yes.  MACKENZIE:   Exhibit 486.  COURT:  Well, it doesn't show the Sweet In River, does it?  MACKENZIE:  No, it doesn't, my lord.  COURT:  Then I don't know what he meant.  MACKENZIE:  Q   What you meant is that you saw another map from --  showing the Kitwancool claim for Sweet In River,  correct?  Well, this is just the only map, this is a true map,  which show all the territory on this one.  A  RUSH:  COURT  A  RUSH:  THE COURT  MR  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A 650?  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   You are talking about Exhibit 486.  2 Let me show you, let's just finish off this line --  3 A   Just a minute.  You asked about the territory on the  4 Baldy, the Kitwancool people, they never -- just a few  5 years back before Silas Johnson -- not Silas Johnson,  6 Albert Tait died, Delgamuukw, they mentioned something  7 about that, they asked him who owns Baldy Mountain,  8 and he says Gwiiyeehl owns the territory there, and  9 the Kitwancool figured they were the ones that owned  10 it.  11 Q   Gwiiyeehl is number 19 on the plaintiffs' list.  12 And his lordship is maybe wondering where Baldy  13 Mountain is, it's up in the Gwiiyeehl Territory; is  14 that right?  15 A   Yes.  That's the one.  Just a little small patch.  16 Q   It's right in the centre of the territory, that peak  17 that's shown in the map on page 486, my lord, the base  18 map.  19 Okay.  And do you know that the Kitwancool people  20 also claim the Upper Kispiox River too, don't they?  21 A   I don't -- I know they take in quite a bit of area  22 there too but that -- and I think the Kispiox people  23 call them to come to Kispiox and settle this thing up.  24 They called them once and they didn't come, then they  25 called them again and they didn't come over.  So, from  26 there on, they never did come over to the Kispiox  27 chiefs to settle this and they were just trying to get  28 right over and take the whole thing.  29 Q   When you say they, you are speaking about the  30 Kitwancool chiefs?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   The Kitwancool chiefs?  33 A   Yes, Kitwancool.  34 THE COURT:  When you say wanted had to take everything, what do  35 you mean by that?  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   When you said the Kitwancool chiefs wanted to take  38 everything, where were you speaking of when you said  39 that?  40 A   Right over to the Sweet In and beyond, they are  41 overlapping the Kispiox Territory.  42 Q   Now, I want to ask you some more questions about the  43 Wiigyet Territory, and I am looking at the table from  44 Tab A of the blue volume.  Does your lordship have  45 that table?  4 6    THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  47    MR. MACKENZIE: 6509  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Now, Wiigyet appears on your map as territory B, your  2 map Exhibit 486, and I want to ask you about some of  3 these other traplines.  Now, the first one I want to  4 ask you about is Sarah Gunanoot.  Now, she is in the  5 Wolf Clan, isn't she?  6 A   Yes.  Who was that?  7 Q   Sarah Gunanoot?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   She was related to Moses Nii kyap?  10 A   Yes, I think so.  11 THE COURT:  Nii kyap is spelled how, please?  12 THE TRANSLATOR:   It's 52 on the list.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's 52 on the plaintiffs' list, my lord.  14 THE COURT:  Thank you.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  There is a different spelling on the trapline  16 application, at tab 1 in the blue binder, but --  17 Q   Now, is Sarah Gunanoot still alive?  18 A  Who?  19 Q   Sarah Gunanoot?  20 A   She died quite a few years ago.  21 Q   Are you aware that her family had a trapline north  22 of -- northwest of Kisgagas, going into the Wiigyet  23 Territory, and I am pointing to the Wiigyet Territory  24 just northwest of Kisgagas along the Skeena River.  25 A   I see her name was on here, just lately, but it's not  26 true.  That belongs to Wiigyet all up along the Skeena  27 and right up to Xsi Agat.  28 Q   You were pointing to the Skeena River just south of  29 Sam Green Creek, you said you saw her name on there?  30 A   I saw her name on there but she doesn't belong to  31 there.  I don't know how she got her name on there but  32 I saw her name on it.  33 Q   Now, she is a Wolf Clan, correct?  34 A   She is a Wolf Clan.  35 Q   At tab 1, document 1 C, I have a photocopy of an  36 application for a registration of a trapline dated  37 June 14, 1952 in the name of Sarah Gunanoot & Company,  38 document 1 C, And this trapline at 1 C has a  39 description, it starts at the Kisgagas Indian Reserve  40 on the Babine River and then it goes west along the  41 north bank of the Babine River to the confluence with  42 the Skeena River, and then northwesterly along the  43 Skeena River to Giist Creek.  Now Giist Creek was in  44 that territory of Wii elaast, isn't it, on Exhibit  45 486, that's territory D on Mr. Muldoe's Exhibit —  46 A  What's the name of the creek?  47 Q   Giist Creek. 6510  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Giist Creek, yes.  2 Q   I am not going to read the rest of the description but  3 I am just going to ask you whether you are able to say  4 anything, are you able to identify that trapline  5 application as Sarah Gunanoot's?  6 A   I never heard of it, never heard of Sarah Gunanoot  7 ever been there, and that is in 19 -- the first time I  8 went up to, up with Joe Starr and we turned over at  9 Kisgagas to visit the former Wii siiks and he is  10 talking about a place in there.  He was talking about  11 the place and Wiigyet's territory, all along here.  12 Q   Referring to Exhibit 486 -- you are now referring to  13 Exhibit 486 and you are talking about Sam Green Creek?  14 A   Yes, all along this one here and he has mentioned  15 about that his wife owned the left-hand side of that  16 Sam Green Creek as you are going down.  I forget what  17 her name was.  18 Q   Was she in Miluulak's House?  19 A   Yes.  And also —  20 Q   That's northeast of Sam Green Creek, right?  21 A   Yes.  And also talking with Thomas Wright and he  22 described that place which belonged to Wiigyet, all  23 the way from there, up to the place they call Xsi  24 agat.  And they say how did Sarah Gunanoot get the  25 name and he doesn't know.  26 Q   You referred to the place Xsi Agat, X-S-A --  27 THE COURT:  A-G-A-T?  28 MR. RUSH:  X-S-I.  2 9 THE COURT:  What's that?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  X-S-I, A-G-A-T.  31 THE COURT:  All one word?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  On the map there are two separate words, one on,  33 one above the other, my lord.  34 THE COURT:  Thank you.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  36 Q   Now, I have already asked you about Fred Wale, and you  37 agreed he is in the Wolf Clan as well?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Yes.  But you don't know about his trapline coming  40 into your territory, Wiigyet?  41 A   No.  42 THE COURT:  When you say coming into your territory, you mean  43 the territory of Gitludahl?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  The territory of Wiigyet, territory B.  45 A  At the time Joe Starr, my uncle, trapped with us with  46 and Austin Matthews in there, they never mentioned  47 anything coming over this side.  But they mentioned 6511  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 something coming up the Kispiox River and then cross  2 around George Beirnes' farm, and they crossed there to  3 get into that place, because during that time was  4 Kisgagas trail, just a trail, pretty rough, so the  5 shortest way they could get in and then they cross the  6 river.  7 Q   Beirnes is B-E-I-R-N-E-S.  So that was the time that  8 Joe Starr went trapping with Austin Matthews?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And Austin Matthews is Wolf Clan?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And finally -- no, not finally, the next one is we  13 talked about Ken Muldoe's trapline at Deep Canoe, do  14 you recall that, or Cullen Creek?  15 A   Cullen creek?  16 Q   Yes.  You recall that one, we spoke about it?  17 A  And did you say Deep Canoe?  18 Q   Cullen Creek.  19 A   Cullen Creek.  20 Q   That goes up in the Wiigyet Territory also, doesn't  21 it, territory B?  22 A   It's on the west side of the Cullen Creek.  And right  23 into Deep Canoe.  24 Q   Yes.  Does your lordship have Deep Canoe Creek there?  25 THE COURT:  Yes, I know where Deep Canoe Creek is now.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q   And as you say, Ken is in the Frog Clan?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And then we referred this morning to Richard Benson's  30 trapline, and that also comes into the Wiigyet  31 Territory, doesn't it?  That would be trapline number  32 630T018.  And that appears at tab 12.  Your evidence  33 this morning was that Richard Benson's hereditary  34 territory follows the boundary on the map here?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   That's Exhibit 486.  Do you know that his territory  37 comes or his trapline comes right down to the Skeena  38 River?  39 A   No, he doesn't come to the Skeena River, comes about  40 three miles from the Skeena to where they have the  41 boundary there.  42 Q   Referring to tab 12, document 12 B --  43 A   There is so many people that been holding that Kuldo  44 River before Richard Benson, just recently when  45 Richard Benson take over, I didn't know that he take  46 over the place there.  47 Q   Richard Benson is Wolf Clan? 6512  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And I am looking at a trapline application dated  3 September 6, 1950, in the name of Richard Benson, and  4 it's at document 12 B in the volume four, the blue  5 book, and the description of the trapline boundaries  6 is commencing on the west bank of the Skeena River  7 opposite Giist Creek.  So that would be just opposite  8 the Wii elaast Territory, wouldn't it, where the Giist  9 Creek is?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Pointing to Exhibit 486.  12 And then the description is northwest, northerly  13 along the west bank of the Skeena approximately six  14 and a half miles excluding Kuldo Indian Reserve to  15 Quarter Cabin, and Quarter Cabin is the came of a  16 cabin on the Telegraph Trail, isn't it?  17 A   Quarter Cabin, yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I am not going to complete that  19 description.  I just want to make the --  20 THE COURT:  Your point is that the description on the  21 application is that it runs along the bank of the  22 Skeena.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And as an aid memoir, your lordship will  24 look at the trapline overlay, your lordship will match  25 up the boundary there with the Skeena River, your  26 lordship will see trapline 0630T018 and apparently on  27 this overlay, coming down to follow along the Skeena  28 River.  That, just to --  29 THE COURT:  Actuall, it crosses the river in two places.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, this is an aid memoir, and the  31 description of the traplines, it goes along the west  32 bank of the river and just to show your lordship the  33 general location of that trapline using the trapline  34 overlay and the on the plaintiffs' map, Exhibit 486.  35 In summary, it seems to come in just about where  36 the neck of Wiigyet Territory B is on Exhibit 486.  37 It seems to come down to the river there.  3 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  40 Q   So, I take it that what you are saying is that you  41 weren't aware that Richard Benson's trapline comes  42 down into Wiigyet's Territory?  43 A   He could have just made it up himself.  Actually, I  44 went up along the Kuldo Creek with the former Luus,  45 Abel Tait, that's Albert Tait's father, as we go up  46 along he wants to show the territory, of course his  47 sister was also -- she was holding that territory of, 6513  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Maryanne Jack, you recall that?  And then he said I  2 want to show you the boundaries, it's a creek that  3 runs out of the mountain, Kuldo Mountain, and when we  4 reach that place in there, he stopped there and he  5 says this is the creek that is a boundary.  The Kuldo  6 people don't come over the mountain, they come right  7 up to the top of the mountain, after they go over the  8 mountain then it's their territory and towards the  9 river all this pass, all the way down to Kuldo.  10 Q   Yes.  11 A   That's all the way a down along here.  All the way  12 down to the Skeena.  13 Q   Pointing to territory B, the Wiigyet Territory on  14 Exhibit 486?  15 A   Yes.  And that's the way he describe it to me.  And he  16 said it's been like that and it's still like that.  So  17 Richard Benson it he makes that thing there, make it  18 up by himself, he is in the wrong.  19 Q   I just want to ask you about one more Wiigyet  20 Territory, and that's the territory up north of Kuldo,  21 that's territory R on the east bank of the Skeena  22 River, and I won't pronounce that but it's just north  23 of Smokey Lake there, and this is territory R and it  24 appears on page 2 of the table that I am referring to,  25 these areas and the traplines.  And it appears that  26 Alice Williams has a trapline that covers that area,  27 do you know Alice Williams?  28 A   I know Alice, yes.  29 Q   And she is quite close to your family, she is Steve  30 Morrison's mother?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Is there any other relationship between you and Alice  33 Williams?  34 A  Well, she is Steve Morrison's mother.  35 Q   This appears to be quite a long trapline, it's tab 2  36 of the blue volume, Alice Williams is in Wolf Clan,  37 isn't she?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Now —  40 THE COURT:  Are we talking about the Lark Worthy Creek  41 Territory?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Right now we are talking about the territory R,  43 my lord, north of Kuldo, the Wiigyet Territory that is  44 Baskyatsinhlikit --  4 5    THE COURT:  Never mind.  Tommy Jack anyway.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  Perhaps the speller to give the  47 spelling of that word to the reporter. 6514  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Now, my lord, looking after the overlay, before we  2 look at the trapline documents, if you line up the  3 overlay, my lord, you will see that according to this  4 aid memoir, that Alice Williams would, is  5 representative of Alice Williams' trapline, 0607T011,  6 0607T011, appears to go all the way from Wii elaast,  7 Territory D, up the eastern bank of the Skeena, way up  8 into -- past, up to the Tommy Jack Mountain area.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I am now referring to the trapline  11 application at tab 2, it's a trapline application of  12 Alice Williams & Company, apparently dated April 29,  13 1946, and I am just going to read the first sentence  14 of that trapline description, my lord.  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I am referring to tab 2, and particularly  17 the second document at tab 2 in the blue volume.  18 Commencing on the north bank of Giist Creek -- now we  19 have mentioned that several times, that is in the Wii  20 elaast territory, Giist Creek, yes, and its confluence  21 with the Skeena River, thence northerly along the east  22 bank of the Skeena River to the mouth of the Sicintine  23 River, approximately 17 and a half miles.  And then  24 the rest of the description gives the remainder of  25 that trapline going -- moving over to the east and  26 then coming south and back to the beginning.  27 Q   Now did you know that Alice Williams' family had a  28 trapline along the Skeena in that area?  29 A   They had at Giist.  30 Q   Yes, they —  31 A   Not the one on Wii elaast, this one here.  32 Q   Referring to Exhibit 486, and territory D, the Wii  33 elaast territory.  That's number 72 on the plaintiffs'  34 list.   What I am wondering about, did you know that  35 Alice Williams' trapline went from Giist Creek north  36 17 miles up to the Sicintine River?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Did you know that?  39 A   It's all wrong on there, I was around with Abel Tait  40 for a long time.  Actually Alice Williams and all  41 the -- Abel Tait, former Luus, they are just like  42 brothers, but they both were Wolf Clan.  Wolf Tribe.  43 And they never mentioned only place where Alice in  44 there 60 years ago was in there and further up it's  45 Luus, up in there.  46 MR. RUSH:  The place he pointed to is the Wii elaast territory  47 indicated on 486. 6515  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  THE COURT  33  MR. macke:  34  THE COURT  35  MR. macke:  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Then and they still keep this separate from Luus's  Territory, because this -- that little piece of  hunting ground, it's just been given to Alice  Williams.  The former people that used to own that  place there is Daniel Skawill.  And referring again to the territory D.  Giist.  Yes, Giist.  And his brother or somebody, that owns the place and  he passed on I guess and the place was too small for  them so he gave it to Alice Williams and that's how  Alice Williams gets that place.  Ever since then they  just been passing on to their own family.  I just note on this trapline application we read,  Steven Morrison, your brother-in-law, appears to be a  member of that trapline company, were you aware of  that?  That's Alice Williams' son?  Yes.   But I guess to summarize your evidence, you  weren't aware that there was a trapline or if there is  a trapline of Alice Williams going all the way up and  covering the Wiigyet Territory up in the north there?  I don't know how she got up there, but never been  mentioned anything about it.  Okay.  Now, looking at your Exhibit 486 again, you  said that McCully Creek, just northwest of Kispiox was  a Skiik'm laxha Territory?  Yes.  And Skiik'm laxha is Wolf Clan?  Yes.  That would be territory H-l on Mr. Muldoe's affidavit.  :  How do you spell McCully Creek?  JZIE:  Yes, my lord, M, small c, capital C-U-L-L-Y.  :  Thank you.  JZIE:  Just looking at the table for that trapping area, it  appears that Norman A. Weget, W-E-G-E-T, has a  trapline in that area, do you know Norman Weget?  Yes, I know him.  And is he Alvin Weget's brother?  Son.  And, he is Fireweed?  I am speaking about Norman.  Wolf.  Norman is Wolf Clan?  Yes.  It's his father Alvin who is --  Alvin, yes. 6516  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Gitludahl.  2 And what house is Norman A. Weget in?  3 A   He is in Luus's house.  Luus or Wii elaast, they are  4 both in the same family anyway.  5 Q   And did you know that Norman had his trapline along  6 McCully Creek?  7 A   Yes, I see they had a trapline in there and I believe  8 he has been trapping some beaver in there, but he was  9 in the wrong place.  He never did have a -- anyone of  10 their clan never did have a trapline in there.  Where  11 he was trapping, it's at a little place I believe  12 Yagosip's Territory.  13 Q   Yagosip's Territory is just including Helen Lake and  14 Pence Lake?  15 A   Yes, just that little piece --  16 Q   Referring to Exhibit 486 to the area just --  17 MR. RUSH:  Well, it's bounded by the two Kliiyem Lax Haa  18 territories and the Gwiiyeehl Territory.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's right.  20 Q   And Gwiiyeehl is number 19 on the plaintiffs' list and  21 Kliiyem Lax Haa is number 35 on the plaintiffs' list.  22 I am referring to tab 5, the trapline documents for  23 that trapline, Norman A. Weget appears at tab 5.  And  24 just holding up the trapline overlay, and aligning the  25 eastern boundary with the Kispiox River, my lord, you  26 will see the approximate area of trapline 0630T007,  27 0630T007, seems to cover that Kliiyem Lax Haa  28 Territory, H-l.  And looking at tab 5 C, this appears  29 to be an application for registration of a trapline in  30 the name of Norman A. Weget dated January 13, 1976.  31 THE REGISTRAR:  January 13?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, January 13, 1976.  33 Q   It says there that this was formerly the trapline of  34 Hazel Angus, did you know her?  35 A   I know her, Mary Angus, yes.  36 Q   What house is she?  37 A   It's in, right now it's on Jimmy Angus's brother, Wii  38 elaast.  39 THE COURT: It says here Hazel Amelia Angus, is Mary is that  40 correct?  41 A  Amelia, yes.  42 THE COURT:  That's who you call Mary?  43 A  Amelia.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q   Her name is Amelia?  46 A   Yes.  47 THE COURT:  What house is she in? 6517  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  She is in Wii elaast House now?  2 A   Yes, she died quite a few years ago.  3 Q   So Norman, you think, is in Luus's house, right?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   How did -- do you know how Luus's House, Norman got to  6 be trapping in Kliiyem Lax Haa's territory at McCully  7 Creek, if that's what he's doing?  8 A   I don't think Luus ever go into -- they go into their  9 own territory.  10 Q   You say Norman Weget so should not be in there?  11 A  Actually that place, I asked a lot of questions about  12 that after hearing about, how did Norman get that and  13 some of the people said Mary Angus used to own that  14 place.  I never heard of Mary Angus ever owned that  15 place, always was owned by Mary Johnson and the name  16 of that place is An uuxs Da Gahlxw.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  We have to get the spelling of that.  18 A   I asked Albert Tait if he knows anything about that,  19 he says he doesn't know how Norman gets in there, and  20 then after Mary Angus died, I don't know how they  21 arranged that to get it that way.  Right up today it's  22 still the same thing.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  We are trying to get the spelling now of that  2 4 name.  25 A  An uuxs Da Gahlxw, like across the river I haul her  2 6 over.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  We are just going to get the spelling of  28 that and then I will ask you another question.  29 THE TRANSLATOR: A-N,space,  U-U-X-S, space, D-A, space,  30 G-A-H-L-X-W.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   Now you said that Mary Johnson owned that place?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And she is Antgulilbix?  35 A   Sorry, not Mary Johnson.  That's Albert Johnson's  36 wife.  Her name is Yagosip.  37 Q   Yes, fine.  38 Just -- on this question of Norman Weget getting  39 that trapping area, I am referring you now to document  40 5 B in the blue volume, and this is -- appears to be a  41 Notice of Trapline Transfer from Hazel Amelia Angus to  42 Norman A. Weget and it appears to be signed by Alvin  43 Weget and Amelia Angus and Norman Weget.  And do you  44 recognize that other signature is that Frank Cassidy's  45 signature?  4 6 A   I wouldn't know any of these.  I don't know who  47 witness that. 651?  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   You are referring to the indecipherible signature on  2 that document, 5 B.  You can't identify any of those  3 signatures?  4 A   I wouldn't know how they sign their name or anything  5 like that.  6 THE COURT:  Should be take the adjournment now, Mr. Mackenzie?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  8  9 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR SHORT RECESS)  10  11  12  13  14 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  15 a true and accurate transcript of the  16 proceedings herein to the best of my  17 skill and ability.  18  19  20  21  22  23 Wilf Roy  24 Official Reporter  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 6519  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AN AFTERNOON ADJOURNMENT  2 AT 3 : 2 0 P . M. )  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  5 THE COURT:  I have this feeling that someone is looking over my  6 shoulder.  Thank you.  Mr. Mackenzie.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, I want to ask you some questions about your  8 territories.  Referring to your Exhibit 486.  9 MR. RUSH:  Maybe that should be placed in front of the witness.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  11 Q    Oh, yes.  First question I want to ask you is how  12 did Gitludahl first get his territory?  13 A    The former Gitludahl name is Alexander Gitludahl.  14 Q    Who decided that Gitludahl would have that  15 territory?  16 A    I wouldn't know.  It is before my time.  17 Q    Do you know any story in the Adaawk of Gitludahl,  18 how he got that territory?  19 A    He didn't mention a thing about it.  That's all I  20 know is it's been passed on from Alexander Gitludahl  21 to Moses Morrison.  That's when he takes over the  22 name.  23 Q    Do you know how the people at Kispiox came to have  24 ownership of these territories on Exhibit 486?  25 A    Well, it is all different clan and different houses.  26 They own territories and they never used to go by any  27 registration, by any Fish and Wildlife.  They never  28 used to have any registration at all until just not  29 too long ago when the Fish and Wildlife, they probably  30 get together with the DIA and tell them that you have  31 to register your trapline, and some of them go for it  32 and some, they don't go for that because they said if  33 you register your trapline, you get all the protection  34 you're going to get, they say.  Nobody is going to get  35 in there but right now the small white people are  36 getting into that territory without anybody's  37 permission.  It goes through the Fish and Wildlife.  38 That's why Indian people never used to have any  39 registration.  They go by the landmark and by their  40 territory and they go in whenever they want to go in  41 there.  42 Q    So you don't know how they first came to get the  43 territories?  44 A    Well, they passed them on from generation to  45 generation because nothing -- all just Indians live in  46 that territory.  47 Q    Well, now, why would -- I don't know whether you can 6520  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 answer this question.  Why does Wiigyet have a larger  2 territory than Gitludahl?  3 A    Well, the Wiigyet -- well, right now, just using  4 Wiigyet's -- for everything.  Over on this territory  5 it is Geel.  6 Q    Geel on Exhibit 498.  Geel is number 8 on the  7 plaintiff's list?  8 A    Wiigyet territory right here.  9 Q    Referring to Shaladamus?  10 A    It is from the Kuldo and over this other Wiigyet  11 territory and Kisgagas.  12 Q    Referring to the Kisgagas area?  13 A    Yeah, the people live from Kisgagas and so on from  14 that and all this area.  Actually three different  15 territories; one here, one here, and one over on this  16 one and that one.  17 Q    Yes.  We are referring --  18 A   And what you call Wiigyet's got some other  19 territory, too.  20 Q    We were just referring to territory B on Exhibit 486  21 and let me see if I can summarize what you said.  22 Territory B on your map is really a combination of  23 several territories; is that correct?  24 A    Yes.  25 MR. RUSH:  He said three.  And he pointed them out.  You're  2 6 going to give them?  27 THE WITNESS:  That's what —  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q    Yes.  30 A    That's what the Game Department ask me was how did  31 you get -- your family get so many territories.  Well,  32 I says, just like any other people, make one -- some  33 rich guy that have a hotel, Sandman Inns all over the  34 country, same as Hudson Bay, just like that.  35 Q    Some families are richer than others?  36 A    Yes, family richer than others and they live in  37 different places like Kuldo, Kisgagas, Kispiox.  38 Q    Let's talk about the Wiigyet territory and, as Mr.  39 Rush was assisting us here, the northern part of  40 Wiigyet, that was -- that was owned by the people at  41 Kuldo; is that correct?  42 A    Kuldo, yeah.  Luu goo'mx and all that.  43 Q    I have to get the names of these now.  That's the  44 name you once had?  45 A    Yeah.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Ms. Howard has that name now, my lord.  47 THE SPELLER:  L-u-u- space g-o-o stop m-x. 6521  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  What is that, please?  THE SPELLER:  Luu goo'mx.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q    That is one of the names of the people at Kuldo?  A    Yes.  THE COURT:  I am sorry, a person or a family?  MR. RUSH:  A person.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q    A person?  A    Pardon?  Q    That was the name of a person at Kuldo?  A    Yes.  All the rest of the family are within that  too, but he is using the name on the territory.  Q    That was the name of a person at Old Kuldo?  A    Yes.  Q    Let me carry on with these questions.  This area in  the northern part of territory B near Shaladamus, was  that known as Wiiseeks' territory?  A    That's the one I was just talking about.  It's Luu  goo'mx on the Kuldo side.  Q    Yes, okay.  That was owned by the people at Kuldo?  A    Yes.  Q    And they were in the Fireweed Clan?  A   All Fireweed Clan.  Q    And what was the name of the house?  A    The name of the house was Luu goo'mx.  Q    Okay.  A    House, but they had their own house but never did  know the name of the house, what they were referring  to.  Q    Okay.  The people who lived at Kuldo were part of a  house in the Fireweed Clan and they owned --  A    Yeah.  Q    -- the land around Shaladamus?  A    Shaladamus, yeah.  Q    You don't know the name of that house?  A    No.  THE COURT:  I thought —  THE WITNESS:  Actually they all combine together.  THE COURT:  I thought Mr. Muldoe gave us the name of the house  of the people at Shaladamus, did he not?  MR. MACKENZIE:  I think he gave the name of one of the principal  people in that house.  I think Mr. Rush would agree  with that.  THE COURT:  I didn't get the name if he did.  MR. MACKENZIE:  It was the name we mentioned several times.  MR. RUSH:  Luu goo'mx. 6522  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT:  Was that the same word that he used again?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q    And then in the central part of the Wiigyet  territory at Canoe Creek?  Yes.  Deep Canoe Creek, that was owned by another house,  wasn't it?  Yes.  That's part Wiigyet and Am mayt lilixws.  We are getting the spelling for that name, my lord.  We are looking for the spelling of that name, but  the name of the house you gave was the house of Joe  Starr; is that correct?  Yeah, the former Am mayt lilixws.  MR. MACKENZIE:  You used that name again.  Now that Ms. Howard  has that again.  THE SPELLER:  A-m space m-a-y-t space 1-i-l-i-x-w-s.  THE COURT:  And what is that, please?  THE SPELLER:  Am mayt lilixws.  It is Joe Starr.  THE COURT:  His name or his house?  MR. MACKENZIE:  That's Joe Starr's house?  THE SPELLER:  His name.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q    That's Joe Starr's house?  A    That's Wiigyet, Am mayt lilixws.  Q    I wonder if you could help me.  We haven't heard  that name before.  Is that the name of Joe Starr's  house?  A    It's a name of Joe Starr's house, yes, from all the  name.  Q    Joe Starr's chief's name was Wiigyet, was it not?  A    Yes, he had that name before Am mayt lilixws.  When  Jack Williams died, then he took the name of Am mayt  lilixws.  When after Alexander White passed on and he  took the name of Wiigyet.  Q    Is it better for me to say then that the central  part of the territory was owned by the house of which  Joe Starr was a member?  A    Yes.  Q    Is that true?  A    Yes.  Q    Okay.  And that house, the Joe Starr house if I can  call it that --  A    Yes.  Q    -- those people live in Kispiox?  A    Yes. 6523  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q    And then the part of territory B that's over near  2 Kisgagas, that was owned by a house of people who  3 lived at Kisgagas?  4 A    Yes, lived by Wiiseeks and Waiget.  5 Q    Yes.  That was a separate house?  6 A    That was a separate house.  7 Q    And so you have joined all the territories together?  8 A    Yes.  9 Q    And who owned the territory up north of Kuldo?  10 A    That's the same people that owns this one here is  11 Luu goo'mx.  12 Q    Luu goo'mx, that's the people from Kuldo?  13 A    Yes.  14 Q    These people -- sorry.  15 A    The house of Wiiseeks, house name was P'doohl'lim  16 Haast.  The people there, they all have a name of the  17 house but can't recall them, can't remember.  That's  18 the only one houses I can remember.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  So now we are getting the spelling for that,  20 but —  21 THE SPELLER:  It is 1534.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q    1534, my lord.  What you have told us now is that  24 there were several separate houses -- I am sorry.  25 There were at least three separate houses owning these  26 territories?  27 A    Mm-hmm.  28 Q    And they had different names, didn't they?  29 A    Different names and also they can use the same names  30 any other -- all amongst the three of them.  31 Q    They were in the three villages, Kuldo, Kispiox and  32 Kisgagas, but they were all in the Fireweed Clan?  33 A    They all in Fireweed Clan.  34 Q    So what we are looking at here -- is it fair to say  35 what we are looking at here in territory B is a  36 Fireweed Clan territory?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    And really that's the -- I am going to say that's  39 the distinguishing feature of that territory, that  40 it's Fireweed Clan; it was not the territory of one  41 house?  42 A    No.  43 Q    No.  Now, we spoke about Gitludahl's Adaawk.  I take  44 it you are not familiar with Gitludahl's Adaawk?  45 A    Except for the one but I think it's already been  46 told by one of the ladies from Skeena Crossing, it's  47 about Skaawo'o.  I think it's already been told by 6524  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Miss Ryan.  I said the same thing.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  We will have to get spelling for that.  3 Skaawo'o, is that correct?  4 MR. RUSH:  Skaawo'o I think it was.  5 THE SPELLER:  It is S-k-a-w-o stop o.  6 THE COURT:  S-k-a-w-o stop o.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q    There is another house of Wiigyet in Kitsegukla,  9 isn't there?  10 A    Different -- actually that name came from Kispiox,  11 the lady from Kispiox go down to Kitsegukla and they  12 got the same -- Kitsegukla never usually have that  13 same name.  14 Q    They are in the Fireweed Clan, too; aren't they?  15 A    Yes.  16 Q    They have separate territories; don't they?  17 A    Yes, they have a separate territory.  I wouldn't  18 know what they have.  19 Q    We have been talking about different houses having  20 different territories.  Now, can you agree with me  21 that the house of Amagyet also had a separate  22 territory?  23 A    Yes, they all have separate territory.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, the spelling I have for that doesn't  25 appear to be on the plaintiff's list.  A-m-a-g-y-e-t.  26 THE COURT:  A-m-a-g-y-e-t, thank you.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q    Now, today, Percy Wilson is Amagyet; isn't he?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    He lives at Kispiox?  31 A    He lives in Kispiox.  32 Q    Yes.  Now, Percy Wilson's territory is on McCully  33 Creek; isn't it?  34 A    It is just east of Date Creek.  Pardon me, it is  35 north side of Date Creek, just another strip goes in  36 there.  It is not shown on the map here.  37 Q    No, it is not shown on the map, Exhibit 486?  38 A    It is Date Creek, may be in here somewhere, but it  39 goes up to that Guup sa.  40 Q    Referring to Exhibit 486, and that feature on the  41 map as G-u-u-p new word s-a.  So you don't know about  42 any territory of Amagyet along McCully Creek?  43 A    No.  I don't think it goes in there.  44 Q    Okay.  Amagyet is Wolf Clan; isn't he?  45 A    He is a Wolf Clan.  46 Q    Now, do you know a creek in this area that's  47 sometimes known as Deep, Deep Creek? 6525  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A    What's the name of the -- Deep?  2 Q    A Deep Creek?  3 A    Deep Creek?  4 Q    Yes?  5 A    Deep Canyon.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  My lord, just to make — to indicate the  7 point of those questions at tab 7 -- sorry, just  8 handed a red volume on territories, volume 5, and I  9 was referring to tab 7 in that volume.  10 THE COURT:  Tab 7 of the red volume.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 7 of the red volume, my lord.  This is an  12 exhibit -- correction, an excerpt from trial Exhibit 5  13 and simply quickly refer to the Amagyet territory  14 that's shown just north-west of Kispiox going along  15 McCully Creek.  And I am pointing that out to Mr.  16 Muldoe.  Does your lordship have that reference?  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  There is a small Amagyet and then there is a  19 larger Amagyet along McCully Creek.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q    So you don't know anything about that McCully  23 Creek/Amagyet territory?  24 A    No, never heard of it.  They all in the Wolf Clan  25 but it's McCully Creek, Kliiyemlaxha.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, filing the interrogatory response of  27 Amagyet which is found at tab 1 of the red binder.  We  28 have an affidavit of Percy Wilson dated March 13,  29 1987, and we have interrogatory 59 subparagraph C.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  The affidavit then will be the next  31 exhibit.  32 THE REGISTRAR:  556.  33 THE COURT:  And the 59 tab C will be the same number.  34  35 (EXHIBIT 556 TAB 1 - AFFIDAVIT PERCY WILSON DATED  36 MARCH 13, 1987 WITH INTERROGATORY 59C)  37  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  39 Q    Now, the next house that -- we were speaking about  40 houses owning these territories.  The next house I  41 want to ask you about is Dawamuxw's house and that's  42 number 3 on the plaintiff's list.  Dawamuxw today is  43 Charles Clifford; is that correct?  44 A    Yes.  45 Q    And Dawamuxw has his separate territory as well?  46 A    Dawamuxw -- that's Thelma Blackwater, is it?  47 Q    Today it is -- I understand it is Charles Clifford, 6526  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Charles Clifford?  2 A    Oh, yeah.  Well, that's his sister.  3 Q    Does Dawamuxw have his separate territory as well?  4 A    Well, they have the same territory as Geel.  5 THE COURT:  Same territory as Geel?  6 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q    Yes, my lord.  That's number 8 on the plaintiff's  9 list.  10 Dawamuxw is Fireweed Clan as well?  11 A    Yes.  12 Q    And Dawamuxw territory is at Stevens Lake; isn't it?  13 A    Yes.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Filing the interrogatory at tab 2, my  15 lord.  16 THE REGISTRAR:  What's his name?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  Interrogatory tab 2 is the interrogatory of Mr.  18 Larry Patsey, P-a-t-s-e-y, whose chief name is  19 Sto'maliit, S-t-o-'-m-a-1-i-i-t, speaking for  20 Dawamouxw's affidavit dated February 10, 1987 with  21 interrogatory 59C.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  The affidavit will be —  23 THE REGISTRAR:  557, my lord.  With the interrogatory?  24 THE COURT:  And interrogatory 59C will be the same number.  25 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  26  27 (EXHIBIT 557 TAB 2 - AFFIDAVIT LARRY PATSEY FEB. 10,  2 8 1987 WITH INTERROGATORY 5 9C)  29  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q    The next person I want to ask you about -- I better  32 say -- make this point, Mr. Muldoe.  Looking at  33 Exhibit 486, Stevens Lake is over in Geels' territory,  34 isn't it?  35 A    Yeah.  3 6 Q    You don't show Dawamuxw's in your map, do you?  37 A    Well, exactly in the same family.  38 Q    But he's got a separate house, doesn't he?  39 A    Yeah, they could built the same houses there.  It is  40 sitting on the same --  41 Q    They are a separate plaintiff in this litigation?  42 A    Yeah.  43 Q    You understand that.  So he has a separate house,  44 doesn't he?  45 A    I don't know if they have the separate house but  46 they always in their relative house when they have a  47 feast; they work together in there. 6527  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q    They are in the same clan?  2 A    In the same clan.  3 Q    But they are separate houses; aren't they?  4 A    I am not sure if they have a separate house.  5 Q    Now, referring --  6 A    I think the former Dawamuxw was one of the Stevens,  7 I think -- I forgot his -- Moses Stevens I think if I  8 am right.  Well, they have -- yeah, I believe they  9 have on their own house but they always work together  10 on the same territory.  11 Q    I want to ask you about another plaintiff with a  12 separate house, and that's Hawaaw', H-a-w-a-a-w.  13 Sorry, that's number 30 on the plaintiff's list.  And  14 that's Alice Wilson; isn't it?  15 A    Pardon?  16 Q    Hawaaw' is Alice Wilson?  17 A    Hawaaw'?  18 Q    That's Alice Wilson?  19 A    Yeah.  20 Q    She's in the Wolf Clan?  21 A    Yes.  22 Q    But she has a separate house, doesn't she?  23 A    I believe she has a separate house, yeah.  24 Q    But she has a separate territory as well, doesn't  25 she?  26 A    Yeah, she has a separate territory.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am referring to tab 4, my lord.  Filing the  28 affidavit of -- sorry, my lord.  29 THE COURT:  All right.  The affidavit will be Exhibit 558.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  The affidavit of Alice Wilson dated February 15,  31 1987, and interrogatory 59C.  32 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 558.  33  34 (EXHIBIT 558 TAB 4 - AFFIDAVIT ALICE WILSON DATED  35 FEB. 15, 1987 INTERROGATORY 59C)  36  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q    Now, referring to your map, Exhibit 486, you don't  39 have Alice Wilson's territory on there, do you?  40 A    Pardon?  41 Q    You don't have Alice Wilson's territory drawn on  42 your map, Exhibit 486?  43 A    Well, it's Alice Wilson and Kliiyemlaxhaa.  It is  44 all combined in the same family and also another lady  45 from -- like the former George Wilson, he passed on  46 and —  47 THE INTERPRETER:  Rosie? 652?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE WITNESS:  Rosie, yeah Rosie Pierre and Alice Wilson, they  2 all together, and that's part of their territory on  3 this one of Kliiyemlaxhaa.  All this here, Alice  4 Wilson.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q    I am sorry.  You are referring to Kliiyemlaxhaa as  7 two territories?  8 A    Yeah, two territories.  It is right in here.  9 Q    You are continuing to refer to the two Kliiyemlaxhaa  10 territories on Exhibit 486?  11 A    Yeah, all Kliiyemlaxhaa's name on that.  12 Q    Alice Wilson says her territory is at 17 Mile on the  13 Kispiox River.  Do you know where her territory is?  14 A    Yes.  As I mentioned, it is all between here right  15 up to the head of the Murder Creek and then to the  16 west side of the Skeena.  17 MR. RUSH:  Mr. Muldoe pointed to the Kliiyemlaxhaa territory  18 which is, I guess, the right-hand territory as you  19 look at the map.  20 THE COURT:  17 Mile Creek I suppose it is in Kliiyemlaxhaa's  21 territory, is it?  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q    17 Mile is — 17 Mile is where the 17 Mile Bridge  24 is; is that correct?  25 A    Yes.  26 Q    Yes.  That's just north of the Sportsman Lodge?  27 A    Yes.  28 Q    That's in the Kliiyemlaxhaa territory?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    On your map?  31 A    Yes.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, the other territory I want to refer to, Mr.  33 Muldoe, is your -- is your Wiigyet territory up at  34 Sicintine River, that's territory R.  35 THE COURT:  How are you spelling that Wiigyet?  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  W-i-i-g-y-e-t, my lord, referring to Exhibit  37 486.  38 THE COURT:  On the Sicintine River?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  40 MR. RUSH:  That's the one that's at Baskyatsinhlikit.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  I avoided that but Mr. Rush has put us face to  42 face with that pronunciation.  43 MR. RUSH:  It is easier to say than R, my lord.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q    Now, Mr. Muldoe, we have a trial exhibit, Exhibit  46 420, which says that Gwininitxw claims that territory  47 north of the Sicintine River.  Do you know anything 6529  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 about that?  Do you know about this?  2 A    It is up along this Sicintine River and it goes up  3 towards this way.  4 Q    Yes.  I am sorry?  5 A   All on this area here.  6 Q    Gwininitxw is north of the Sicintine?  7 A    North of that territory.  8 Q    That's number 20 on the plaintiff's list, my lord.  9 And we have a map, trial Exhibit 417, that says that  10 Luus claims the territory along the Skeena River up to  11 the Sicintine River.  Do you agree with that?  That  12 would cover your Wiigyet territory?  13 A    What's that?  14 Q    That's Luus?  15 A    Luus is this -- the only place where Luus go, we all  16 go along this territory and comes right pretty close  17 to Sicintine River.  Sicintine River comes right in a  18 circle like this and then goes down.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mr. Muldoe has referred to Exhibit 486, and he  20 is referring to the Luus territory on that exhibit.  21 That's territory C in his affidavit, and he also  22 showed the course of the Sicintine River which heads  23 north in a loop just outside the map.  I just ask  24 you --  25 THE COURT:  What's that map?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  North of the map, my lord.  27 THE COURT:  Outside the boundary of the outlined areas.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  Well, the Sicintine River heads  29 north in a loop that carries on north of the limits of  30 this particular map, my lord.  31 THE COURT:  You mean north of the outlined area in the map or  32 outside of the limits of the map?  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Outside the limits of the map, my lord.  34 THE COURT:  You better show me where that is.  I thought I had  35 the Sicintine all on the map.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  The Sicintine starts at the Skeena River, my  37 lord, and then it continues north and outside the  38 boundaries of the map, and that can be seen on  39 either --  40 THE COURT:  It doesn't flow in an angle?  41 THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  Well, these all include and —  42 THE COURT:  Is this the route of the Sicintine up here?  43 THE WITNESS:  Yeah, Sicintine up -- comes up right around here.  44 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q    Well, the point I want to put to you, Mr. Muldoe, is  47 that in that map which is Exhibit 420, Luus claims the 6530  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 territory which you have marked as territory R.  Now,  2 I have to put that to you.  Do you agree that Luus  3 owns that territory?  4 A    No.  5 Q    Okay.  And in that exhibit, it is Exhibit 417 I am  6 speaking about, Luus' interrogatory map, I was  7 speaking about that Exhibit 417.  In that exhibit Luus  8 also claims the territory Q which you have as  9 Wiiminoosik.  Do you agree with that?  10 A    No.  Luus for what, more than ten year, and every  11 time we go by, the first year we went by, point out  12 that little place, it's called Dam sgan djixit,  13 Wiiminoosik, and they always points out fishing trips,  14 show me finally the way it goes.  15 MR. RUSH:  Pointing again to the Luus territory C on Exhibit  16 486.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just to show this point graphically, my lord, at  18 tab 7 is the excerpt from trial Exhibit 5, and your  19 lordship will see that Luus' territory doesn't go all  20 the way up on this map to the Sicintine River.  21 Gwininitxw comes down south of the Sicintine and joins  22 Luus, so both Luus and Gwininitxw claim that territory  23 which is covered by or, sorry, either Gwininitxw or  24 Luus claim that territory which is covered by the  25 territories Q and R on Exhibit 486.  On referring --  26 MR. RUSH:  That's not correct.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Referring to trial Exhibit 5.  28 MR. RUSH:  Trial Exhibit 5 shows one thing, the evidence of Mr.  29 Muldoe shows quite another.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, I agree.  I am just pointing out that Mr.  31 Muldoe's evidence is different -- Mr. Muldoe disagrees  32 with the claim by Luus to these two territories.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q    You also disagree with the claim by Gwininitxw to  36 those territories?  37 A    Yes.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  39 THE COURT:  What do you think, Mr. Mackenzie?  Is it convenient  40 to adjourn?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  42 THE COURT:  How are we getting along?  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  I anticipate that I will be — this is the last  44 part of my cross-examination, my lord.  I anticipate  45 finishing about the break tomorrow, just before the  46 break tomorrow morning.  47 THE COURT:  How long do you think you will be, Ms. Koenigsberg? 6531  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Not very long, my lord.  2 THE COURT:  So we should be able to finish in regular hours  3 tomorrow?  4 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I would be very surprised if I was until the  5 lunch hour.  6 THE COURT:  Be able to complete your re-examination?  7 MR. RUSH:  Yes, my lord.  8 THE COURT:  We will adjourn until 10:00 tomorrow morning.  Thank  9 you.  10    THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until ten.  11  12 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:05 P.M. TO MAY 26, 1988)  13  14 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  15 a true and accurate transcript of the  16 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  17 best of my skill and ability.  18  19  20  21  22  23 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  24 United Reporting Service Ltd.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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