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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-06-16] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 15, 1987

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 127?  1  2  REGISTRAR  3  4  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  MR.  PLANT  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  THE  COURT  26  27  MR.  GRANT  28  MR.  PLANT  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 10:00)  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia this 16th day of June, 1987, Delgam Uukx  and others and Her Majesty the Queen.  Witness, I  remind you, you are still under oath.  Thank you, my lord.  A few points I just wanted to come back to from  yesterday, Mrs. Ryan.  Yesterday you described the  use of malgwasxw?  Yes.  And you described it, I believe, that the hunters  bathed in this?  Yes.  Why did they use this plant for bathing before they  went on a hunt?  Well, clean yourself before you go out hunting.  Was this like we consider having a bath, do you mean  just physically cleaning themselves?  Yes.  There was nothing in the evidence yesterday about  hunters using it.  I don't remember it, but --  Then I apologize, my lord.  Sometimes it's hard to  separate outside and internal --  That's all right.  Mr. Grant wants to lead the  evidence and he has been reminded he hasn't done so.  I take it my friend isn't objecting to me leading?  No, I was concerned that my friend had asked a  question based on something that hasn't been  established.  All right.  Thank you.  Did hunters use malgwasxw.  Yes.  And did they use it to bathe?  They used it to  bathe, to wash themselves?  Yes.  And my question was why -- why did they use it?  What was the effect of the malgwasxw on the hunter?  Well, to clean yourself when you use it.  You expect  to be lucky after you use it.  That's the  Indian believes in that roots.  So you say you expect to be lucky and it provided  luck for the hunter?  Yes.  Another point that you -- we talked of yesterday  when we were talking about the fishing sites, you 1279  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  2 4 MR.  PLANT  25  2 6 MR.  GRANT  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44 THE  COURT  45  46  4 7 MR.  GRANT  told the court that there had been iron posts placed  at some of the fishing sites or at the fishing sites  by the Chiefs and you had seen those.  When your  grandmother taught you about where those fishing  sites were and the history of those fishing sites,  did she tell you why she and others had placed these  iron posts there?  Well, that's Mr. Loring that finds those people,  you know, to put the reserve on that  smoking -- smokehouse.  And Mr. Loring was the Indian agent?  Yes, that time.  And you described a territory of Hanamuxw yesterday?  Yes.  And I would be referring to the territory that's  pictured in -- just a moment, my lord, in 33A.  This is the territory at Xsuwii Luu Negwit?  Yes.  Now, in Exhibit 33A, the photograph, there does not  appear to be any logging along that territory.  Do  you know if there is -- has been logging on your  territory since that picture was taken?  They started last year.  I wonder if the witness could state the -- or be  asked to state the basis of her knowledge.  Have you seen the logging or anything that --  Well, the bridge was there at that time when we went  there.  And just beginning to log in that place.  Okay.  And that was a bridge across one of the  rivers to your territory?  Yes.  And when was that that you saw the bridge?  I think it's around August when I saw that.  Of this past year?  Yes.  Yesterday you gave evidence about the two  territories of Hanamuxw?  Yes.  When did Hanamuxw first have those territories?  When they moved to Kitsegukla from T'am laxamit to  Kitsegukla.  Did —  I am sorry, Mr. Grant, I want to get.  I didn't hear  what she said.  She said you got these territories  when they moved to Kitsegukla from --  T'am laxamit. 1280  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  Q    And that was at the time of the snowfall of T'am  laxamit that you were talking about?  A    Yes.  Q    And that Mrs. Johnson described?  A    Yes.  Q    I would just like to ask you a couple of questions  to clear up on T'am laxamit.  The Giskaast or  Fireweed were at T'am laxamit?  A    Yes.  Q    Were there Ganeda or Frogs at T'am laxamit?  A    There were Ganeda too.  Q    Were there Lax Gibuu or Wolfs at T'am laxamit?  A   At T'am laxamit.  Q    Now, you described that the Frogs or Ganeda are  also in Kitsegukla.  When did they move to  Kitsegukla?  A   After Hanamuxw was moved to Kitsegukla and the Frogs  moved there too.  Q    Was this soon after Hanamuxw moved after or was this  a long time --  A    Soon.  Q    Soon?  A    Yeah.  Q    So it was around the same time of the snowfall?  A    Yes.  Q    Now --  COURT:  I am sorry, Mr. Grant, but I have a gap in my notes.  I didn't get whether she said there were Frog clan  members at T'am laxamit or there weren't.  GRANT:  Q    There were. There were?  A    Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  And she said there were Wolf clan members there,  too.  COURT:  Yes, I got that.  GRANT:  Now, my lord, if I could just --  COURT:  Well, to make my note complete, were there Eagles  at —  A    No, no Eagles there.  COURT:  No members of the Eagle clan, that's what you mean,  isn't it?  No members of the Eagle clan at T'am  laxamit?  A    No.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 MR.  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  30  31  32 MR.  33  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37  38 THE  3 9 MR.  4 0 THE  41  42  43 THE  44  45  46  47 1281  1  2 MR.  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12 MR.  13 MR.  14 MR.  15 THE  16 MR.  17 THE  18 MR.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 MR.  32  33 THE  34 MR.  35  36  37 THE  3 8 MR.  39  40  41 THE  42 MR.  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45  46  47  A    No, just the Wolfs and the Frogs at Giskaast.  GRANT:  Now, I am going to be referring, to assist the  court, to the tab 4(2) map.  And also the tab 5 map  in Exhibit 29.  Again, I am not going to put these  maps to the witness, but this is just to aid the  court.  Q     Yesterday you described your territory that's below  Stakhaiyt.  Tass Holtxwit you mean?  Tass Holtxwit?  Yes.  That's at tab 19.  That's 421.  A  Q  A  GRANT  STERRITT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  421.  And what is that  Tass Holtxwit.  But what is it?  again  9  This is the ridge that's above your territory?  Yes.  Now, does your territory go all away along that  ridge to the end?  Yes.  And where does the ridge end in relation to  Kitsegukla?  By the fishing site.  Which fishing site?  Ant kii 'min.  Ant kii 'min?  Yes.  Now, my lord, just to assist the court, if you have  both of the maps, they cover part of the same area.  Yes.  And I am particularily looking at the bottom half of  the tab 2 map, the one that's got the -- the part  where the label is.  Yes.  Okay.  Now, if you can see there, there's a name  under Gaxsbgabaxs, there is a name Kitsegukla on  that map.  Yes.  It's on the bottom right corner.  Yes.  And you can see where the heavy dark line goes right  down to a point and that's at a junction of two  rivers, the Skeena and the Kitsegukla.  Now, if you  look on the other map, you can see above the small 1282  1  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GRANT  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  word Kitsegukla -- or below the small word  Kitsegukla, you can see Ant kii 'min.  It's on the  bottom.  It's right across from that inset.  Yes.  And if you look there, my lord, you can see that's  the Kitsegukla River and that's the same point at  which that -- the point of that territory is.  And that's 352?  352, that's right.  And then if you go up along on  that same map, you see where the Skeena crossing  bridge is.  And if you go up along the larger map  you see where that Skeena crossing bridge is too.  It's the railway bridge.  Yes.  So you can --  Yes, I have that.  Now, the creek that you referred to on tab -- on  Exhibit 33B, you referred to a part of the mountain  where your boundary was?  Yes.  And Spookw was on the other side?  Yes.  That's was Winx tsi k'ak?  Winx tsi k'ak.  And does that creek go all the way to the Skeena  River?  Yes.  And does your boundary follow that creek all the way  down?  Yes.  Now, does your territory go right to the Skeena  River?  Not to -- not way down, but they -- when they pass  Carnaby.  Yes.  And that's one fishing site there.  And on the other  side Ansi bilaa and Gwin di sahaxsw and Gwin ap.  There are fishing sites of other Chiefs that follow  along the river?  Yes.  In your territory; is that right?  Yes.  But other than where those other Chiefs' fishing  sites are, does your territory go right to the  river?  No.  No, just the Frogs owns the fishing site there 1283  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  MR.  GRANT  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  PLANT  37  THE  COURT  38  REGISTRAR  39  THE  COURT  40  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  below the Ga sil aatxwit.  Okay.  There are fishing sites of other Chiefs?  Yes.  And there are fishing sites of Hanamuxw within this  territory of yours?  They were in there, but I was telling you that when  the An si bilaa and Win'yagagidax and Gwin disahasxw  and Winxsidahix and Wilsa k'awts and Gwin ap  And those are fishing sites of Hanamuxw?  Yeah, that's Hanamuxw' fishing site.  And then way  and that's Frogs.  Now, I am asking you about your land territory here,  about the territory that goes below the mountains.  You've described that it goes as far as Ant kii 'min  on one end?  Yes.  And you've described that it follows that creek?  Yeah.  On the other side?  Yes.  Does the territory go all the way to the river?  Yes.  And you referred to some fishing sites and there are  other Chiefs who have fishing sites within your  territory?  Part of it, yep.  I've got a list of Gitksan words of -- used  at Feasts and I want to lead some of this evidence  through the witness.  I would ask that -- and it has  the meanings on it and it starts at number 50, goes  to 72 and then there is some other names which were  given yesterday which are 73 through to 85.  I would  ask that it be marked as the next for  identification.  Any objection, gentlemen?  No.  All right.  The next exhibit number?  35.  Thank you, 35 for identification.  (EXHIBIT 35 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Gitksan list of  words)  Now, this -- I would like to ask you about the --  some of the specific payments and gifts at the  Feast at the pole raising.  Yes.  Now, first of all, you've described the payment made 1284  1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  MR.  GRANT  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  [NTERP  15  16  MR.  GRANT  17  Q  18  MR.  PLANT  19  THE  COURT  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  THE  TRANS  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  30  MR.  GRANT  31  A  32  MR.  GRANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GRANT  by the -- made by the host chief into the Feast  itself.  This is at your pole -- let's say at your  pole raising Feast either 1945 or today?  Yeah.  Is there a term for that payment in Gitksan?  Jep gi hlee'e.  That's 51, my lord.  51, it says carving on pole.  Now, you've referred to the carvers or the  carvings on the pole gi hlee'e?  Gi hlee'e.  Did you explain what that payment is?  rER:  The gi hlee'e refers to people who are working  to carve the pole.  Okay —  I am sorry, I didn't hear what the interpreter said.  He said gi hlee'e refers to the people who are  working on carving the pole.  Are they paid at the Feast?  Yes.  And what is the name of the payment made to them?  Txoo'odiit.  rOR:  53.  53.  Well, that doesn't sound like the word that she  used.  No, I don't think so.  Hlgo'um.  That's 53.  Yes, that sounds like it.  Of course I am not putting -- at this point I am not  putting the Exhibit 35 to the witness.  And is there a name for the person who seats people  in the Feast hall?  Wenimsit.  55 on Exhibit 35. And is there a  person or for the announcing of a  into the Feast hall?  One standing outside the door, Gi'i simoogit,  hla hagwin yees, that's what they said.  And Giismal  is the one that sitting in the chief.  Gi'i  simoogit, hla hagwin yees.  Is Gi'i simoogit on this list?  name for the  chief who comes 1285  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  THE  COURT  12  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  THE  COURT  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  THE  COURT  28  29  30  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  MR.  PLANT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  A  44  MR.  GRANT  45  46  THE  COURT  47  That's the announce  what they call out; is that  right?  The ones by the door, they call the Chief's name in  Na gi'i simoogit, hla hagwin.  It means that the  Chiefs are coming in.  And the ones that Gismal  are sitting the chief in the hall.  Is there a name for that person who announces  the person, the person who calls that in?  Tsi lim txtxw.  56, my lord.  Well, Mr. Grant, if you have gone over these names  with the witnesses, and I assume you have, is it  necessary to go over them seriatim again?  All I am concerned about is with respect to the  payments and I will go directly to those.  All right.  The payments and the receipts.  I learned years ago that in the Provincial Court  that they won't let you put an accounting person  and go through it and identify each item, they  merely require you to say is this the accounting and  leave it to cross-examination to challenge it.  And  it seems to me we might profit by doing the same  thing.  I have no problem, actually, with doing that and I  have gone over this with the witness.  Because it doesn't seem to me necessary to go  through each item individually and if you have gone  through them with her and you are satisfied that  that is what her evidence is going to be --  Do you recall over the last few days going over the  words that are gifts and payments at the Feasts and  giving the meanings of those words to me?  Mh'm.  And that I reviewed this list with you and this list  is correct?  Yes.  Do you recall -- is that right?  Yes.  I don't know if my friend has an objection with  that.  Well, if he does we will hear about it in  cross-examination.  It's my view that the list is 1286  MR.  MR.  THE  9 THE  10 MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  1  19  2 0 MR  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  2  29  30  31  32 MR.  33 THE  34  35 MR.  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  proven sufficiently to be Exhibit 35.  GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  Q    Just one point is I read the list to you, didn't I?  A    Yes.  Q    You didn't read it, I read it to you.  GRANT:  And I am referring there, my lord, to -- it's three  pages and I am referring in Exhibit 35, the words  from 50 through to 72.  COURT:  All right.  PLANT:  Well, that wasn't the question put to the witness.  My concern was more with the fact that the question  that was put to the witness was capable of only one  logical answer.  And I don't dispute the fact that  as of this moment that the witness has identified  the three pages.  If my friend wants to qualify  that, then I would ask that he do so through the  witness.  COURT:  Have you got own over the third page with the  witness?  GRANT:  No, my lord, the third page is words that were --  most of those words were mentioned yesterday and  they -- I don't intend -- I don't really intend to  go back over them.  They are words that were in the  transcript.  They are words like for Rainbow and  number 24 should be Star.  It says "Staa" but it  should be Star.  Those words are words provided for  the assistance of the court.  All right.  With that explanation, why don't we use  page 3 for the evidence yesterday and delete it from  the exhibit and the first two pages will be Exhibit  35.  I have no problem at all with that.  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT 35:  Gitxsen Words at Feast, two pages)  Does Westar -- you know the Weststar, the timber  company?  You know what I am referring to?  Did they have a mill built on Hanamuxw'  territory?  Yes.  They have approached you?  No.  Have they approached any member of your House, to  your knowledge?  A    No.  Q    Have they obtained permission from your House in any  way to build a mill in your territory?  THE COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q 1287  1  A  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  THE  TRANS  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  it's called the Carnaby  No.  Is that the mill at Carnaby?  Yes, my lord.  That mill is located  Mill; is that right?  Yes.  I would like to ask you a few questions about a  Feast that's been referred to called the gwalgwa.  Gwa1gwa.  Can you tell the court when the gwalgwa Feast is  held?  Well, that's the end of -- the end of the Chief who  is -- that's the last Feast he put up.  And that's  the end of his simpogit, but he still attend the  Feast, but it means you retired, gwalgwa.  Does the Chief keep his name?  Yes, he still keep the name.  Is this a joyous or a sorrowful --  No, joy.  He proud of himself.  What he was doing  all these years.  Does that happen after the pole raising or before  it?  Oh, that's right.  After the pole raising, but he  has to wait for a while and then put up a Feast  again and that's gwalgwa.  Can I have a spelling for gwalgwa, please?  Pardon?  A spelling for gwalgwa.  LATOR:  gwalgwa, G-W-A-L-G-W-A.  :  I had it right, thank you.  :  Just one moment, my lord.  Does your daughter, Joan Ryan -- is she the  registered holder of a trapping territory?  Yes.  And does that encompass one of your territories?  Yes.  Which one?  Xsuwii Luu Negwit.  That's the one on Exhibit 33A.  Did you know Arthur  Howard?  Did you know who Arthur Howard was?  Yes.  And is he now deceased?  Yes.  Was he a member of your House?  Yes.  What name did he hold?  'Niitsxw. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33 MR.  GRANT  34  35 THE  COURT  36  37  A  3 8 MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  1288  Do you know if he has a registered trap line which  covers part of one of your territories?  Yes.  Do you know where that is?  Yes, Xsi na hontxwit.  That's a creek name on Exhibit 33 A.  Do you know  William Milton?  Yes.  And he is deceased?  Yes.  And was he related to your House?  That's Peter Milton's son.  And Peter Milton was the former Gwaans?  Yes.  And William is deceased?  I'm sorry, he is deceased  you said?  Yes.  And Jimmy Ryan is your son?  Yes.  And he is in your House today?  Yes.  In Hanamuxw' house?  Yes.  Do you know if William Milton and Jimmy Ryan have a  registered trap line?  Yes.  And where is that trap line?  Ga sil aatxwit.  Is that the territory you were describing yesterday?  Just a while ago, yeah.  The one that's near Carnaby?  Yes.  That's on 33B and the name she referred to is  regarding 33B.  I gather William Milton was not from the House of  Hanamuxw?  No, he is a Frog.  Which House was he in?  Mool'xan.  And did, he under Gitksan law, have any right to use  your territory?  Yes, because his band owns the mountain.  Is that what's referred to amnigwootxw.  Amnigwootxw, yeah.  Do you know if any of -- did Jeffrey Johnson have --  did he register any of Hanamuxw' territory? 1289  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  MR.  PLANT  19  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Yeah, he did.  And which territory did he register?  Xsuwii Luu Negwit.  That's the territory now held by your daughter  Joan?  Yes.  You described earlier that you went out with your  grandmother on those territories?  Yes.  And did Jeffrey use those territories for trapping?  Oh, yes.  And William, Peter Milton?  Well, they go on their own trap line.  Up at -- which is on the other territory?  Yes.  Did any of these persons who trapped, did they trap  outside of Hanamuxw' territory?  Well, I don't know how the witness would know that  unless she was with them at the time.  It seems to me that it is a detail that would hardly  qualify under the exceptions hearsay rule, is it  not?  Well, I would submit that it's --  There is simply no way of verifying it.  Well, it is evidence, I mean of the territory and of  the boundaries and the use of them and their  knowledge of them.  Well, I think to that extent she has told you.  Or I  think she has told you what she knows in that  regard, but if one of them -- for her to answer that  question, firstly it would have to be admissable.  But secondly, she would have an assurance of each  one of them that they never strayed out of the  territory.  And that seems to me to be so remote and  so incapable of verification that it can hardly  qualify for admissibility.  When you went out on the territory with your  grandmother --  Yeah.  -- did your grandmother --  She point to places when we go there.  Okay.  What places did she point to?  Well, that's Mool'xan's hunting ground.  Mm'hmm.  And then Mool'xan'.  I seen that Mool'xan come  across Hanamuxw' hunting ground and they go to the 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  1290  Copper River.  Did your grandmother ever trap?  Oh, yeah, they go out there every winter.  Did she ever trap outside of Hanamuxw' territory  when you were with her?  Well, theirnot allowed, just their own trap line  they -- that's the reason why they go there every  winter and trap in their own.  Okay.  Now, when you say they only trap on their own  trap line --  Yes.  Are you referring to that -- are you referring to  what's registered with the Fish and Wildlife or are  you referring to what you described on the  photographs?  Yes.  Which?  Well, they follow the line.  There is a boundary  there and when they go out hunting and they follow  the boundary line.  They not trap in somebody else's  claim.  You in trouble if you do that, you go out in  somebody else's trap line.  A few days ago I asked you about -- about Mr.  Johnson and I asked you about his will.  And there  is only one question that I didn't come to and I  wanted to ask you.  Did Jeffrey Johnson leave  anything to you?  Yes, he did.  And what was it that he left to you?  Totem pole and the blankets and everything.  And those are the blankets you were describing the  other day?  Yes.  Now, on May 21st Mr. Plant was questioning Mary  McKenzie and he asked about some totem poles at  Ksan.  You know where Ksan is?  Yes.  And he asked about two poles on either side of the  house front.  I am referring, for reference, to page  492 of volume 8.  And he asked if those were  Jeffrey Johnson's poles and she said:  Yes.  And  he asked if Jeffrey Johnson was Hanamuxw and she  said:  Yes.  Now, do you know about the poles  that -- these poles on the two sides of this house  that he was talking about?  He is the one -- he is the one that carving that  post in front of the Gitksan, they call it laax 1291  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  2 8 THE  COURT  29  3 0 MR.  GRANT  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  tsimaak.  Okay.  Now, the other day you referred to disk  which was used at the pole raising Feast?  Yes.  Is this what you -- the same name?  Yeah, the same one.  Now, can you see the court, using this, how those  posts are at Ksan?  Yes.  How would -- how would -- does this appear on those  posts?  Is it like this?  It was standing.  Like this?  Yeah.  Mh'm.  And I would refer the court to -- that's the -- for  the record the tab -- the photo at tab 7 of Exhibit  29 For Identification.  And the witness indicates  that the posts were a vertical version of that.  What's described as the nax nok or spirit catcher.  Can you tell the court why Jeffrey Johnson put that  on those house posts?  And maybe I should  clarify one thing.  Was it a totem pole or house  post?  House post.  Can you tell the court why Jeffrey Johnson did that?  Well, he was concerning about the carvers, that's  why he decided to build a long house in Hazelton.  I am sorry, I didn't understand what she said.  He  was concerned about --  The carvers.  And that's why he built a log house in  Hazelton.  Did he discuss this with you and other members of  the House?  Well, we talk it over, you know, after and I asked  him why.  And, you know, I was upset when I noticed  that they making the Laax tsimaak in front of the  Gitksan and he explained it to me why he done that  because the people will recognized him as belong to  Hanamuxw.  They would recognize --  Yeah, the people will recognized him.  That's the  reason why he put Laax tsimaak in front of the  Gitksan.  Who built the long house?  Him and the rest of the Chiefs, Spookw and Wiigyet  and himself and T'ewelasxw and Albert  Doust, there is five of them. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  1292  And when he put that -- this design on those house  posts, did he break the Gitksan law?  Part of it.  You know I get after him about it  because I know they giving it away to me, you know,  I understand -- I understand it, that's why I talk  it over with him after he finished.  Okay.  You described yesterday or the other day  about the crest at the bottom of your pole, the  father's side?  Yes.  The Frogs?  Mh'm, yes.  Was this carving anything like that?  I don't mean  the actual carving, but the reason he did it?  Well, that's what I said just a while ago.  The  people will recognized him because he is the one  that building the long house.  That's the reason why  he put Laax tsimaak in front of the long house.  I asked you if he broke Gitksan law and you said  part of it.  Can you explain in what way he broke  the Gitksan law?  Well, they making that Laax tsimaak in front of the  Gitksan, that's the reason why I said part of it,  you know, they -- he is broking the law in Gitksan.  You are not supposed to do that, you know.  Because  we never know those people who owns the Laax tsimaak  now.  This is the Ksan Village you are referring to?  Yes.  Now, I would just like to ask you about something  that you have talked about and that's about the dax  gyet and you've referred to many events in your  evidence.  Can you tell the court how you and the  other -- how you relate your relationship to your  territory and the trees and the resources on your  territory?  And let me ask you this way, maybe.  Have your -- have the people of your Village used  the trees for protection during time of crisis?  Yes.  Have the people of Kitsegukla moved into certain  parts of the forest at certain times?  Yes.  Can you describe when that occurred and why they  moved there?  Oh, yes.  They moved out in where the Jack Pine is  and those -- Jack Pine was just like humans, that's  what the old people said.  They are breathing too. 1293  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  INTERPRETER  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT:  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  And cleans the air.  Yeah, that's the reason why  they moved out there in the winter time.  Was there a reason that they moved out there at that  particular time?  :  When there is a sickness going  around.  Did this happen in your lifetime?  Yes.  You described the adaawk of the mountain goat?  Yes.  And I think you referred to the respect for the  animals.  Do you recall in your lifetime an example  of children playing with animals?  Yes.  Can you tell the court what happened?  That's what the T'am laxamit people gets -- you  know, when they making fun of the goat.  That's the  reason why they were killed up at the mountains.  I don't think she understood your question, Mr.  Grant.  No.  Do you recall any example where the people -- where  young people in your lifetime made fun of an animal  and then there was a punishment by the animals?  Yeah, I know the -- this lady -- it happened in  Andimaul.  Can you tell the court what happened?  You saw this,  hey?  Yes.  Can you tell the court what happened?  Well, those boys were playing, you know, make fun of  the frog.  They put the frog in a can, corned beef  can and threw it out the river.  Mm'hmm.  And just half an hour later and the frog come out,  you know, with the cans and then they doing the same  thing and then keep on throwing out the river.  Mm'hmm.  And then that night, you know, when those people are  drying fish and the smokehouse is full of fish and  they -- the next day the man go to the smokehouse to  build a fire there and there was full of frogs and  they wouldn't -- one is a big frog by the fire.  They couldn't -- he couldn't get in to build a fire  there.  And that's what I believe what the old  people said.  Those boys were making fun of the 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  INTERPRETER  12  THE  COURT:  13  14  INTERPRETER  15  16  THE  COURT:  17  MR.  GRANT:  18  INTERPRETER  19  THE  COURT:  20  MR.  GRANT:  21  22  INTERPRETER  23  24  MR.  GRANT:  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  INTERPRETER  33  MR.  GRANT:  34  Q  35  36  INTERPRETER  37  38  MR.  GRANT:  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  MR.  PLANT:  46  47  1294  frogs and that's why the whole thing came and they  take -- take over the smokehouse.  The frogs did?  Yes.  What happened to the fish?  Well, they all spoiled, sour.  And did -- you saw this happen?  Yes.  Could you tell the court or describe for the court  the importance of the land of your territory to you?  :  She ask me to explain.  Well, I am sorry, but I think you must put the  question directly to her and give us her answer.  :  That's what I just   she said you explain it to  me.  Well, put the question again, please, Mr. Grant.  Can you -- did she give the answer to you?  :  No, she just said --  She said:  You explain, Mr. Interpreter.  Okay.  Can you explain the importance of the land to  you of your territory to you?  :  They value their land because everything comes out  of the land, their livelihood.  Is there anything further?  Yeah.  You described in this example of the Frogs and at  Ta'm laxamit, the respect to the animals?  Yes.  Do the Gitksan have similar laws with respect to the  land itself?  :  She wanted me to answer.  Do you have similar laws with respect to the land  itself?  :  Yes, they do, they have a lot of respect for the  land.  In your evidence you have given descriptions of  certain adaawk.  And I asked you the other day when  you gave those adaawk whether they were for the  court or if they belonged to somebody.  When you --  are those adaawk -- do you wish those adaawk to be  used outside of the court?  Well, my friend has asked that question before.  I  didn't object to it before.  He did get an answer to  it.  I don't see that the question or the answers 1  2  THE  COURT  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  THE  COURT  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  28  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  THE  COURT  42  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  THE  COURT  46  47  MR.  GRANT  1295  are relevant.  :  I don't think that the witness can control the use  of evidence, Mr. Grant.  :  My lord, first of all, with respect to my friend's  objection, the answer was that she would check with  Guxsan over the lunch hour, after the lunch hour  and I will re-ask the question.  :  I don't think, with respect, that it really matters.  Witnesses can't control the use of evidence.  :  I appreciate, my lord, but as you recall there was  some proposal made early on and all I wish is for  the witness is to be able to put on the record.  :  We are not here for people to put things on the  record, Mr. Grant.  Miss Mandell made an application  to start a trial and I said I didn't see any  authority that I could -- that could possibly permit  me to accede your application.  I invited her to  reply again and I haven't heard from her since about  it.  And I haven't had any further submission.  My  view is still, as I stated then, I know of no way in  which I can control what people say about the  evidence.  If there is authority and you want to  argue the matter again by all mean means, but surely  it can't be up to the witness.  :  I am not asking for it to be up to the witness, my  lord.  I thought that it would be of assistance that  given the situation in the law if the witness was --  did have the opportunity to say whether or not it  was within the Guxsan system a matter of property  or not.  :  Well, how is that going to help me to solve the  legal issues in this case, Mr. Grant?  Surely this  is a side issue that just can't go anywhere.  Unless  you want to stand the witness down and argue the  question again, I know of no way which I can give  effect to any answer she is going to give to the  question you just ask.  Now, doesn't that end the  matter unless we have submissions with authority?  :  Well, it may assist, my lord, to have an evidentiary  base for the submissions.  For --  :  I don't think, Mr. Grant, I haven't the slightest  doubt what her answer would be.  Can't we get on  with the case?  :  Well, my lord, it was one question and --  :  Well, there is an objection to it and I have to deal  with the objection.  :  I understand that.  I understand that. 1296  1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  THE  COURT  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  The pole that you were talking about, the totem pole  that you were talking about that is being repaired,  I believe you gave evidence that that pole had been  put up by your grandmother?  Yes.  And it was put up by your grandmother before you  were born?  Yes.  Did your grandmother teach you about the poles?  Yes.  Did she tell you whether there were poles in  Kitsegukla when she was a small child?  Yes.  Before she had put up this pole, the one that  we see today?  Yes.  Was there poles -- was there another -- a  previous pole of Hanamuxw --  At the graveyard.  -- before that?  When she talked to you about the  history of T'am lax amit, did she tell you whether  there were poles at T'am lax amit?  Yes.  Were there poles there?  Yes.  Did she describe to you how the poles were carved  before the white man came?  They used Da wiis.  And that was --  I am sorry, what was that word again?  Da wiis.  That was provided yesterday, my lord.  Yes.  And these were made out of stone?  Yes.  Do you know in Kitsegukla which pole has been  standing the longest there today?  That's Gwis gyen.  Surely she could only say by representation,  couldn't she?  Yes.  Did your mother talk to you about the poles at  Kitsegukla?  Your grandmother I mean?  It is still standing there Gilhaast they call it.  Gilhaast?  Yes.  And which pole is that? 1297  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  THE COURT:  A  GRANT:  Q  MR.  THE COURT:  REGISTRAR:  Gwis gyen.  Did your grandmother tell you it was there when she  was small or was it put up in your grandmother's  lifetime?  Yes, they were teenagers that time, around 14 or  something like that.  When she was a teenager?  Yes.  From what your grandmother taught you about poles --  well, no -- my lord, I have substantially completed  my examination.  I wonder if we could have the  morning break now so I could consult with my  associate?  Yes.  Order in court, this court stands adjourned for 15  minutes.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED PURSUANT TO  LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT))  I hereby certify the foregoing  transcript, transcribed herein, to be  true and accurate to the best of my  skill and ability.  LISA REID, OFFICIAL REPORTER.  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 129?  -h2 0. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1297  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT  AT 11:22 A.M.)  THE REGISTRAR:  THE COURT:  Mr.  Order in  Grant?  court.  EXAMINATION  Q  IN  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  CHIEF CONTINUED BY MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord. I just have a few more. This morning  you talked about your being on the territory with your  Grandmother?  Yes.  And she told you you could not cross the boundary?  Yes.  What boundaries was she referring to?  The own boundary and the -- somebody else's.  Can you give an example?  Luutkudziiwas -- Luutkudziiwas hunting ground next  to Hanamuxw.  And where is the boundary?  What is the boundary of  that?  Xsi no hontxwit, boundary line of Hanamuxw.  Xsin non?  Yeah, and Xsu wii luu negwit.  Talking about two  creeks.  Okay.  I'd like to refer to Exhibit 35, my lord.  There is a matter that -- I take responsibility for  this as counsel and I just want to clear up what  appears to be an error.  I refer the Court to number  63 and 64.  Can you explain what Aye' is?  Aye'?  Children of Grandfathers that put out the  money when someone died, you know; Father's funeral.  Aye', they call it when they put out some money.  Is this on the wilxsi 'witxw side or the Father's  side?  The children of the ones, that side, great  grandchildren and --  And that's when?  Great grandchildren.  That's when a male Chief dies?  Yes.  My lord, I would ask if that could be changed for  the record, that that definition there on Aye' is  wrong from the witness' evidence.  Yes.  It was a mistake made.  It should be, instead of the  spouse andamanuk, it should be children and  grandchildren of the father. 129?  1 MR.  2  3 MR.  4  5  6  7 MR.  8  9 THE  10 MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  2 6 MR.  27  28  29  30 THE  31 MR.  32  33  34  35  36  37  38 THE  3 9 MR.  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  PLANT  GRANT  Q  :  Father of deceased or father of the host clan  contributing feast?  Okay.  Maybe what I will do is go to 64 and that  might clarify it.  K'ots gesxw?  Haircut.  And who's -- who contributes -- what is that  contribution made by?  INTERPRETER:  She ask me what it was.  GRANT:  K'ots gesxw is the haircut?  Yes.  And this is a contribution at a Feast?  Yes.  And is this made by the Father or by the children of  the Father?  Yes.  And what kind of feast is K'ots gesxw made at?  The funeral.  Is Aye' similar to that?  The same as Aye'.  And what type of feast is Aye' given at?  Every feast, that pole and funeral.  So Aye' and K'ots gesxw are the same contributions?  Yes.  Maybe better just to refer to that second definition  of 64 and delete the definition of 63; both 64 applies  to 63 and 64.  Thank you, my lord.  Those are my  questions.  COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Plant?  GOLDIE:  My lord, before my cross-examination or any  submissions with respect to the cross-examination is  made, could I speak to the matter of the marking of  the alienation maps that I referred to on Friday?  I  assumed that the evidence in chief would have been  finished yesterday and I -- that seemed to be an  appropriate time.  COURT:  Yes.  GOLDIE:  I provided Mr. Grant with a list of the numbers  proposed, only one of which has been entered.  That's  the trap line map of Exhibit 24(a).  All of the others  are proposed to be numbered for identification, and I  wonder if I might hand up to your lordship a copy of  the list that I provided.  This list, my lord, covers  all of the documents which were referred to in the  Notice of Motion and it begins with Exhibit 36(a), and  I did that on the  A  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT 1299  1 assumption that Mr. Grant would go to Exhibit 35  2 which he has very conveniently done.  I don't propose  3 taking up the time of the Court if your lordship would  4 agree in the marking of this, but arranging with the  5 Registrar, either immediately before court tomorrow  6 morning or after court today, to have the documents  7 marked in accordance with this list if that is a  8 convenient way of doing it.  9 THE COURT:  Well, it certainly is for me.  I should hear what  10 your friends have to say.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  I have no objection to what Mr. Goldie proposes,  12 my lord.  13 THE COURT:  All right.  You will speak to this, Mr. Grant?  14 MR. GRANT:  Yes, I can.  Yes, I can speak to this matter.  15 My lord, my friend has listed, as he's indicated,  16 all the documents in the Notice of Motion.  The  17 argument last week applied to five, as I recall, five  18 maps; one of which -- two which are already in the  19 trap line maps.  The others my friend, I think, the  20 UREP maps if I may say Exhibit 36 series on this list,  21 the Exhibit 37 series which are the mineral tenures,  22 Exhibit 38 series, the water tenures, and the Exhibit  23 39 series, the survey district lots series.  Now, when  24 one moves from there to the subsequent ones, one gets  25 into areas of that we did not speak to, that Mr. Rush  26 did not review the documents with respect to, and  27 there may be -- although the Court has made a ruling  28 regarding the general application of the principle,  29 there may be -- we are -- there are -- for example, 40  30 deals with improvement districts and fire protection  31 districts which is clearly a political or  32 jurisdictional form of mapping.  It is different in a  33 generic character than the others.  We have not  34 reviewed those or questioned those and it was -- I  35 spoke with Mr. Rush about this and we have reviewed  36 this listing, and it is our submission that at this  37 point in time, the first five that my friend sought to  38 be introduced are the ones that should be introduced  39 now and that we may have submissions with respect to  40 the others.  But the issue raised on Friday was with  41 respect to those five.  That's what Mr. Goldie is --  42 to my recollection said and that's what he intended to  43 do.  He wanted to make application with respect to  44 five particular maps and that application was dealt  45 with on Friday.  46 Now, I don't dispute and we don't dispute that  47 some of the principles established by the Court on 1300  1 Friday may well apply to the others but there may be  2 other specific grounds of objections, and Mr. Rush did  3 not speak to those and we want an opportunity to  4 review those before they go in for exhibits as  5 identification.  Also, of course, I don't know if they  6 are intended to be put to this witness but if not, I  7 presume there is no prejudice.  And even if they are  8 and the witness identifies them, then they go in in  9 any event.  I presume, looking at the types of things  10 here that they are not -- they are not going to be put  11 to this witness, but I don't -- I would ask that the  12 Court -- that the ones be marked as exhibits for  13 identification go down to Exhibits 39(c) and that the  14 subsequent ones, we have an opportunity to raise them  15 because that was not our understanding of what we were  16 dealing with on Friday.  Mr. Rush did not deal with  17 all of the other maps and he has specific concerns  18 about the ones erased, and those are the ones that the  19 Court dealt with.  20 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, are you expecting Mr. Plant to put  21 anything beyond 39(c) to the witness in  22 cross-examination?  23 MR. GOLDIE:  We haven't discussed that.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, is there any reason why we  25 shouldn't mark for identification down to and  26 including 39(c) and reserve the other numbers for  27 consideration at a later date when Mr. Grant and Mr.  28 Rush are in a position to deal with them more  29 specifically if minded so to do?  30 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, they have had two months now to think about  31 this and I am not going to belabour the point, my  32 lord.  33 THE COURT:  Well, let me ask you, Mr. Goldie, will the documents  34 included from 40(a) onwards be the subject of separate  35 affidavits and possibly cross-examination in my ruling  36 on Friday?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  My intention was to provide affidavits in respect  38 of the -- all of these but, if my friend wishes to  39 deal with these on a bite-by-bite, I don't propose  40 doing that.  But I took your lordship's ruling to be  41 that the subject matter of a Notice of Motion was such  42 that at which was of course the entire -- the entire  43 procedure, the entire grouping, was such that numbers  44 would be reserved and that I would be required to  45 provide affidavit support confirming it.  46 THE COURT:  Well, I think that if you are not going to press it,  47 Mr. Goldie, and your friend wants time, I don't see 1301  1 why he shouldn't have time.  The exhibits on this list  2 from -- I am sorry, from 36(a) to 39(c) may be marked  3 now for identification.  The other numbers can be  4 reserved in accordance with this list and Mr. Grant, I  5 think that you should let your learned friends know  6 and let me know perhaps by the end of the week if  7 further submissions are going to be required if that's  8 convenient by the end of this week.  9 MR. GRANT:  This is what I understood, my lord, is, I have no  10 objection to the reservation of the numbers for the  11 matter of convenience but my understanding was, as Mr.  12 Goldie said, that there would be affidavits provided  13 with all of them and I would -- we would -- I don't  14 want my friend to be misunderstanding.  We would like  15 those affidavits with respect to all of the maps  16 provided to us as quickly as possible.  When we have  17 those affidavits, we will probably be in a better  18 position to deal with Exhibit 40 and subsequent, and I  19 understood that that's what he was going to do, and so  20 I think that we would like to deal with it in the  21 context of those affidavits and let me say this, that  22 on some of the affidavits -- on some of them we may  23 take a position; for example, examining for discovery  24 over the summer break but others may look at the  25 material as Mr. Rush did and say, this is fine, and  26 let's be in and we can put it in there and that's what  27 I was intending that I understood would be done and  28 Mr. Rush as well.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  That's almost a complete misunderstanding, my lord.  30 Your lordship's ruling was that the documents will be  31 marked for identification and that I would provide an  32 affidavit confirming what is in there.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  And that my friend wishes to examine on that  35 affidavit, that's fine, but the document goes in  36 before the affidavit is supplied.  37 THE COURT:  Well, I think that's what the ruling was.  The only  38 difficulty is that the argument focused on 39 to -- I  39 am sorry, to 36 to 40 and not on the others.  I think  40 you should let me know, it doesn't have to be at the  41 end of this week, Mr. Grant, by the end of next week.  42 And let's deal with this problem of getting these  43 documents marked and there is no prejudice to anyone  44 possible because if the evidentiary basis isn't  45 satisfactory they don't become evidence in the trial  46 anyway.  Let your friend know before the end of next  47 week and we will have another argument and decide 1302  1 whether they should be marked or not.  But I did say  2 for the convenience at trial they can be marked now  3 for identification and that certainly was intended to  4 carry with it the implication necessarily that the  5 marking would take place before the affidavits would  6 be furnished and the cross-examination undertaken.  So  7 we will deal with it that way; that is, we will mark  8 up to 39(c) now, or whenever it is convenient for  9 Madam Registrar, and the others will be dealt with  10 again before the end of next week.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  12 THE COURT:  And I suppose this list, so the record will show  13 what we are talking about, should be Exhibit 56.  14 MR. GRANT:  My lord, just a final point.  I wondered if my  15 friend can give any indication to the Court as to when  16 these affidavits would be made available because it  17 was our intention to try and deal with this matter, if  18 necessary, during the summer break and next week is  19 the end of the first session.  I wonder if they are  20 going to be able to facilitate --  21 THE COURT:  I said that the cross-examination could take place  22 out of court during vacation.  I said I would hear the  23 argument in vacation so your friend is going to have  24 to get them to you fairly quickly.  2 5 MR. GRANT:  Good.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  They will be dealt with with the same similarity as  27 my friends deal with requests for documents; perhaps  2 8 more so, my lord.  29 THE COURT:  I hope so.  Thank you.  Exhibit 56.  30  31 (EXHIBIT 56 - FOUR PAGE LIST - NUMBER AND ORDER OF  32 MAPS AND SUPPORTING DOCUMENTS)  33  34 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  35 THE COURT:  Mr. Plant?  36 MR. PLANT:  My lord, I have a submission to make with respect to  37 cross-examination of Mrs. Ryan.  38 On June 10th, the first day that the witness  39 testified, I reserved the right to request an  40 adjournment of her cross-examination on the basis of  41 late disclosure of documents.  I am now asking that  42 Mrs. Ryan's cross-examination be adjourned until all  43 documents which may relate to the evidence that she's  44 given have been produced and there are two aspects of  45 concern if I may put it that way.  The first is late  46 production, which I identified to your lordship last  47 week.  The second is non production  and, if I may, I 1303  1 propose to elaborate very briefly on those two  2 problems.  3 On June 9th, I requested of my friends production  4 of any documents relating to the territory of  5 Hanamuxw.  On June 12, I was delivered five documents,  6 four of which to the best of my knowledge had not to  7 that point been produced in the litigation.  8 Yesterday, two new sets of photographs were produced.  9 They were not included in the documents delivered to  10 me on June 12 and, of course, your lordship heard that  11 at least with respect to one set of documents, they --  12 one set of photographs, they have been in existence  13 since 1983.  My concern is that other documents exist  14 and I have a particular concern with respect to  15 photographs and other demonstrative evidence because  16 we have made specific and special requests for that  17 kind of evidence.  18 My lord, in December 1983, Mr. Sterritt, who's the  19 chairman or the president of the tribal council spoke  20 at a symposium at the University of Victoria.  He said  21 among other things, and I am quoting from a paper that  22 was prepared as a result of that symposium which was  23 produced on discovery of Mr. Sterritt:  24  25 "Other evidence of title today is the  26 chief's knowledge of the exact locations of  27 fishing sites and the hunting territory  28 boundaries.  We have all of that recorded on  29 our maps now."  30  31 And later he says:  32  33 "Where else is titled demonstrated?  Evidence  34 of title is also demonstrated in the  35 existence of recognized hunting territories  36 and by the fact that we know those  37 territories; we go out there; we talk about  38 them in our stories.  I've had the privilege  39 over the last 15 to 20 years, but  40 particularly over the last two years, of  41 travelling to every corner of our territory  42 with our head chiefs, taking pictures,  43 movies, stills, and tape recordings as our  44 chiefs stand on mountains and describe  45 their territories with stories that cover  46 every corner of our 22,000 square miles."  47 1304  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44 THE  4 5 MR.  46  47  COURT  GRANT  In March of this year, we examined Mr. Sterritt  for discovery.  At that time, we specifically asked  for production of the maps which were said to have  been in existence as of December 1983, recording the  exact location of fishing sites and hunting  territories, and your lordship has heard extensive  evidence with respect to the location of fishing  sites.  And secondly, we asked for production of the  pictures, movies, stills, and tape recordings which  Mr. Sterritt referred to in his symposium and also  which were -- have said to be in existence as of  December 1983.  Nothing has been produced.  It is clear that photographs do exist concerning  this witness' territory.  Two sets were produced  yesterday.  And if Mr. Sterritt is right, then there  will be movies, tape recordings and perhaps other  photographs and I might pause here to note that on  June 9th, I also asked for any documentation relating  to the Feast at which Joan Ryan became Hanamuxw in  1966.  I was told there was none.  Yesterday the  witness identified a photograph and my recollection of  her identification was this is a photograph of my  daughter at the Feast in 1966 when she became  Hanamuxw.  Other photographs may exist, other  documents may exist.  I say that while, and your  lordship is aware that diaries have not turned up  until cross-examination of witnesses at this trial.  Feast books have not been produced for discovery  notwithstanding reference to them in interrogatories,  and I suggest it should be brought home to the  plaintiffs that disclosure of maps and photographs the  night before they give evidence is not sufficient.  Failure to produce documents as your lordship knows  amounts to non compliance with the rules and Rule 2.2  gives your Lordship the right to make such order which  is just and, in my submission, the appropriate order  in the circumstances is to adjourn the  cross-examination of this witness until there has been  complete disclosure of all the documents that might  relate to her territory and to the evidence that she's  given and, secondly, until I have had an opportunity  to review those documents once they have been  produced.  :  Mr. Grant?  :  Well, I will be quite frank, my lord.  Maybe my  friends concede that we are trying a trial by ambush  and we deserve the same.  I want to say that I am -- I 1305  1 am taken by surprise by this application now and I  2 want to be sure -- I don't want to make  3 representations to the Court until I have confirmed  4 what I already believe I know.  I dealt with the  5 requests of my friend in their June 9th letter.  There  6 is 12 volumes of field notebooks of Mr. Sterritt which  7 were produced.  Incorporated in those 12 volumes are  8 notes and strippings of all of the territories.  I  9 have indicated to my friend that there was loose-leaf  10 notes which Mr. Sterritt spent considerable time and  11 effort to organize and I have been in the process of  12 reviewing and what I have done is, when they requested  13 everything to do with her territory, I asked him to  14 excise everything out of those loose-leaf notes which  15 have not yet been provided to the other side relating  16 to her territory and that was done.  17 With respect to the photographs, it is my  18 understanding and that those two photographs or five  19 photographs are the five photographs that relate to  20 her territory.  My friend's application yesterday  21 related to the genealogy and we have dealt with that  22 matter in chambers, and we are trying to expedite it,  23 but my friend has now had that for over a week and I  24 didn't rely on it extensively.  In cross-examination,  25 to my recollection, it's not been relied on  26 extensively by either counsel and I say extensively  27 because I can't -- I don't want to be precise, but we  28 are not endeavouring to hold back on documents which  29 is what I am concerned is the implication being made.  30 We are trying to produce all, each and every document.  31 We are trying to produce and have produced in this --  32 with this witness's evidence descriptive evidence,  33 that is, the regalia and we have also arranged for  34 photographs of those so that they can be conveniently  35 handled by the Court and by the counsel.  36 My learned friend requested of me outside of the  37 court yesterday with respect to photographs of the  38 other territories, and I want to advise the Court that  39 rather than provide these photographs in a box or in a  40 large envelope, we are trying to organize them not  41 only for the Court but also for my friends so that  42 they make some sense and, as soon as that is  43 completed, I intend -- we will be delivering all of  44 them, but those photographs relating to this witness'  45 territory have been disclosed.  And I do say that the  46 only point which my friend makes that has -- was an  47 oversight on my part.  He did refer to the 1966 Feast 1306  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  1 and I -- and that photograph was not disclosed and it  2 was an oversight on my part.  When I was thinking of  3 documents, I was thinking of physical documents and  4 actually feast books, and I don't have the  5 correspondence in front of me because, as I say, I  6 wasn't advised that this application was going to be  7 made.  8 THE COURT:  Well, do you say, Mr. Grant, that there is nothing  further that you can produce with respect for example  to the ceremony whereby the present Hanamuxw was  inducted as Chief?  :  All of the documents in this witness' possession I  have reviewed with the witness and there is no other  documents in her possession to my knowledge.  :  What about in possession of the plaintiffs?  :  In possession of the plaintiffs, well, there was one  matter and that was a matter that -- the only  outstanding matter that I want to clarify with the  witness is the question of the existence of the feast  book respecting that particular feast and that's why I  want to look at my friend's letter before I respond to  that, and I want to clarify that before I confirm that  with the Court and I went through everything in Mr.  Plant's letter with the witness and confirmed what  existed and what didn't exist and tried to produce  everything that existed.  COURT:  Are you suggesting there might be a feast book for  that?  GRANT:  That's the one point that I wish to -- my friend did  request that feast book and I didn't -- I reviewed  that with the witness so my recollection would be that  there isn't -- that feast book doesn't exist.  But I  want to go back to the witness on that particular  point.  There was a request relating to documents  relating to pole raising feasts of 1945 and 1984 and  is -- in regards to a 1987 feast, I corrected that.  The 1945 feast there was a description provided in our  list of documents by William Baynan and I advised him  of that.  There was no feast books relating to that  feast otherwise.  COURT:  What about Mr. Sterritt's statement at the seminar  about videos and tape interviews and --  GRANT:  With respect to the videos, we have been trying to  44 get those in a copiable position.  I don't know if  45 there are videos with respect to her territory.  This  46 request was made with respect to the territory of  47 Hanamuxw so I was trying to deal with that.  On the  9  10  11  12 MR.  13  14  15 THE  16 MR.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27 THE  28  2 9 MR.  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  4 3 MR  THE 1307  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16 THE  17  18  19 MR.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  4 6 MR  47  COURT  GRANT  THE  global level, we are trying to deal with all of the  videos.  COURT:  Well, are you suggesting that there may be in the  videos some that relate to the property of Hanamuxw's?  GRANT:  Well, as I say, I would have to check with him and I  just want to say that my friend's request was any  documents relating to the territory of Hanamuxw  including notes made or kept by Neil Sterritt and  others in connection with the preparation of the maps  of the territory of Hanamuxw and that I was focusing  on all of the notes and the photographs, and that's  what we have produced.  And I will review with Mr.  Sterritt whether or not there is video with respect of  her territory and, if there is, I have absolutely no  problem with the production of it.  All right. Then let me ask you, Mr. Grant, if the  cross-examination should be stood down, are you able  to proceed with another witness?  Well, I would have to -- the next witness is going  to be led by Mr. Rush and I would have to of course  consult with him with respect to that but, my lord, it  is my submission that it isn't necessary for the  cross-examination of this witness to be stood down and  I would submit strongly that with respect to the two  points that I have raised, those two points they can  be clarified and, if my friend wants an adjournment --  if there is a video of her territory and my friend  wants an adjournment to cross-examine her with respect  to that video, that's one type of question but I  submit the vast majority of her evidence -- her  evidence has all been led in and if that's all he  wishes to cross-examine on, that's one thing, but I  assume he wants to cross-examine on other areas.  That's an outstanding matter that I wish to confirm.  I interpreted my friend's letter as relating to  documentary notes and now -- and now he's raised the  question of the video.  The video was raised with  respect to Mr. Sterritt's discovery and I have  corresponded with Mr. Goldie on that on a number of  points, and we have agreed that his discovery is going  to continue in the summer.  Then they said, well,  documents relating to this territory of Hanamuxw has  been requested here.  COURT:  Well, in a nutshell, Mr. Grant, what do you think  might yet be forthcoming with respect to --  GRANT:  The outstanding matter I'd like to confirm is the  video, whether there is a video that shows any part of 130?  1 her -- either her or her territory.  That's been  2 raised specifically just now by her clan.  These  3 documents were delivered as he's indicated, I believe  4 he said June 12, and I have never -- I mean, he didn't  5 come -- I hadn't -- until this morning, I didn't know  6 he had any other concerns tying into Mr. Sterritt's  7 discovery and if I had known ahead, I would have done  8 that in advance.  9 THE COURT:  Well, are you saying then apart from the video you  10 do not anticipate any other production with relation  11 to the claim of Hanamuxw?  12 MR. GRANT:  No.  13 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  14 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay?  15 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, there is another thing.  During the —  16 either just before or during the course of this  17 witness' examination in chief, two fishing site maps  18 were produced; one covers Kitsegukla, Hanamukxw's  19 fishing sites, and this fishing site along the other  20 houses then half-way or three-quarters through the  21 examination, Kitwanga fishing site map was produced.  22 And the witness gave evidence in great detail about  23 those fishing sites.  Much earlier, Mr. Morrell, who  24 is the expert on fishing matters for the plaintiffs,  25 had interviewed as he reports many of the chiefs and  26 this was done either in the year 1985 or earlier, and  27 we have been asking repeatedly by letter for these  28 copies of these interviews.  There has been no  29 response.  My friends, the counsel for the plaintiffs,  30 have not said, well, there aren't any, or we will get  31 them for you, or we won't get them for you.  We have  32 had no response at all.  I am assuming from the  33 detailed knowledge that Mrs. Ryan has not only her own  34 House's fishing sites but of the fishing sites way  35 down the river in other Villages that she must have  36 been one of the main principle informants that Mr.  37 Morrell has relied on in connection with his work and  38 his report.  39 Fishing sites and matters that pertained to  40 fishing of course are of particular interest to the  41 Attorney General of Canada and I will be severely  42 limited if there are indeed such notes of interviews,  43 records of interviews, statements of this witness that  44 turn up after she is -- her cross-examination has been  45 completed.  It is very unsatisfactory to have to  46 cross-examine and then have her stood down and brought  47 back at another time for a further cross-examination. 1309  1 That's extremely cumbersome, and I don't see why this  2 defendant should be embarrassed in that way.  And so  3 that's another thing that obviously there has got to  4 be a fair body of material; that is, interviews with  5 this witness, I don't know if they are taped, if they  6 are noted or by whom, but obviously there must have  7 been and they should be produced before we are  8 required to do our cross-examination.  9 THE COURT:  Well, perhaps I can ask you, Mr. Grant, whether  10 there are in -- well, in the possession of the  11 plaintiffs through Mr. Morrell the interviews -- the  12 interview and collection of information obtained from  13 this witness that haven't been produced.  14 MR. GRANT:  Well, again, that's a question that I slightly  15 differ with my friend.  There has been a request for  16 all of Mr. Morrell's data.  There has not been a  17 request with respect to any data specifically with  18 respect to this witness and this data of Mr. Morrell  19 is the appendices in the back-up data that he is  20 dealing with.  I don't know if there is interviews of  21 this witness.  What I can tell the Court and why the  22 maps of the fishing sites were produced late was that  23 those maps were prepared based on the preparation of  24 this witness by counsel and then they had to be  25 drafted and prepared.  That is the source of the  26 information.  This witness is the source of that  27 information and she's given the evidence with respect  28 to them.  There was, with respect to sites below  29 Kitwanga, there was information from other persons and  30 I know there is information from those persons because  31 they have given evidence in other proceedings, but  32 this evidence of these fishing sites has been from  33 preparation by counsel.  34 THE COURT:  Well, I can postulate this scenario.  This witness  35 has given detailed evidence of fishing sites.  If she  36 is cross-examined now and then Mr. Morrell comes along  37 and says Mrs. Olive Ryan told me this, this, this and  38 this, that would have to come out in cross-examination  39 because it wouldn't be competent to lead that evidence  40 by the plaintiff.  From cross-examination, he says  41 those things or if they are in his report, then it is  42 clear that that information should be in the  43 possession of the defendants at the time of the  44 cross-examination of this witness, is it not?  45 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord, and of course they have the full  46 report of Mr. Morrell.  They don't have the  47 appendices.  My understanding is, Mr. Rush is dealing 1310  1 with that, but my understanding of that -- that's  2 primarily maps which is outstanding but they do have  3 the report, and that's another matter that I am  4 pleased to determine but, my lord, this witness gave  5 evidence of the fishing sites last week.  The maps  6 were produced to them at the beginning of this  7 witness' evidence and until this moment I have not had  8 a specific request as to any notes made, interviews  9 with this specific witness with any third parties by  10 the Federal Crown.  11 MR. PLANT:  With respect, my lord, while that doesn't deal with  12 me, does my friend expect a specific request for  13 production of all documents with respect for all of  14 the 7,000 people he represents each by a separate  15 letter?  16 THE COURT:  Well, gentlemen, I doubt -- I am sure you know the  17 answer to your question, Mr. Grant, but it puts the  18 matter in focus and it does seem to me there is a  19 problem here.  I must say I think the request of the  20 video that Mr. Plant mentions is a matter that could  21 be covered by a subsequent cross-examination when it  22 becomes available but I am not quite so certain about  23 the matter raised by Mr. Macaulay.  24 MR. GRANT:  I am more concerned of that as well and I appreciate  25 what you are saying and my view is that what --  26 over -- if the cross-examination commences over noon  27 hour, I will immediately contact Mr. Morrell and  28 determine if there is anything and be able to advise  29 Mr. Macaulay with respect to her evidence.  30 THE COURT:  Why don't we adjourn for lunch now and come back at  31 1:30 and deal with the matter then.  Mr. Macaulay is  32 probably --  33 MR. MACAULAY:  It is not just interviews.  Of course we can cast  34 our requests for documents in the form of testing long  35 lists of possible informants because we didn't know  36 they were.  It is obvious this witness must have been  37 one of them just from the tenor of her evidence in  38 listening to her evidence.  She's got a remarkable  39 grasp of the location and names and histories of the  40 fishing sites, but our request is broader than that  41 even in connection with this cross-examination.  It  42 may be that others spoke to Mr. Morrell about the  43 Hanamuxw's sites or about other sites relating to the  44 maps that have been marked now as exhibits.  45 THE COURT:  Well, that may be, but you couldn't cross-examine  46 this lady on what someone else told Mr. Morrell.  47 MR. MACAULAY:  I might indeed if it is inconsistent.  If someone 1311  1 else told Mr. Morrell something inconsistent, I might  2 very well put that to her.  Do you know Mr. John  3 Smith?  Yes, I do.  And are you aware of the fact that  4 Mr. John Smith said to your expert Morrell such and  5 such about the fishing sites which doesn't correspond  6 with what you tell us.  7 THE COURT:  Well, it may be as a matter of representation, I  8 suppose.  Pretty difficult for a witness to be asked  9 what she has to say about what somebody else told a  10 third person but I -- I can see --  11 MR. MACAULAY:  I would think I'd have to put it to her before  12 any other evidence, I submit.  13 THE COURT:  Well, I am also troubled, Mr. Grant, by the fact  14 that the appendices to Mr. Morrell's report were a  15 matter of some considerable discussion in pretrial  16 conferences stretching back over several months and I  17 probably would have thought that would have been  18 resolved by now.  It wasn't possibly resolved at the  19 pretrial conference stage but we are now into about  20 day 19 of the trial.  21 MR. GRANT:  Mr. Morrell's report was provided in total, not a  22 summary report as we have been -- as has been the  23 case.  24 THE COURT:  But there were complaints by counsel at that time  25 that they couldn't grasp the significance of the  26 report without the back-up material and that was  27 booted about at some length at least at one pretrial  28 conference.  29 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  And we pointed out that the major appendices  30 which is the report of Mr. Morrell of 1985 has been in  31 the possession of the Federal defendant since 1985,  32 and that's a report of 600 pages.  That's the main  33 appendices.  That's a report of over 600 pages long in  34 itself with appendices.  The biggest problem, I will  35 be clear with the court, on that is the maps and these  36 maps which have now been introduced, it is in an  37 effort by counsel to try to get the maps before the  38 Court and to counsel.  The biggest problem with the  39 appendices to his report have been -- are the maps  40 which initially are planned to go into his report and  41 these maps are being presented now, and there is no  42 inconsistency, I certainly hope there would be no  43 inconsistency, between these maps and his appendices.  44 In other words, they will be the same, but these maps  45 are not the ones that were initially intended to go  46 into his appendices and given the difficulty I  47 instructed cartographers to get these maps ready now 1312  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  so that counsel could have them.  THE COURT:  I think we will adjourn to 1:30 and counsel can  first find out what the situation is regarding the  various matters that have been asked about and  secondly, Mr. Grant, if you can proceed with another  witness, there doesn't seem to be any great difficulty  in standing the cross-examination down but I say very  frankly that my very strong preference is to deal with  witnesses one at a time if it can be done, and I'd  like counsel to think about that too over the luncheon  adj ournment.  MR. GRANT:  The next witness is the first Wet'suwet'en witness  and from Mr. Rush's instructions, will be a bit of  time.  I am concerned if this cross-examination is  stood down, it may be stood down to September and I am  concerned with the age of the witness, that she may  not --  THE COURT:  I don't think we have a problem with that.  I don't  like to think about that anyway.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (LUNCHEON ADJOURNED AT 12:08 P.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein, transcribed to  the best of my skill and ability.  TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd. 1313  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 1:30)  2  3 THE COURT:  All right, gentlemen, where are we?  4 MR. GRANT:  Maybe I can give you the lay of the land, my lord.  5 First of all, that was -- there -- there was no  6 Feast book for the Feast of Jeffrey Johnson in the  7 fall of 1966 and I confirmed that to my friends on  8 my letter of June 12, '87.  For some reason in  9 my own -- my own memory as to what that -- what I  10 had done and what that letter said is why I was  11 questioning it before.  12 My friend requested documents relating to  13 the Pole Feasts in 1945 and I referred him to  14 Document 3486 on our list of documents which is a  15 notebook by William Baynan referring to  16 that Pole Feast and I -- I advised him that I  17 understood he already had a copy of it and if he  18 didn't he could examine our copy.  To my knowledge  19 they have not requested to examine our copy, I  20 believe he has it.  21 He referred to a 1984 Pole Raising Feast and I  22 indicated we are not referring to a Pole Raising  23 Feast in 1984.  And in fact, as you can  24 adduce from the evidence, the pole raising Feast  25 will occur in 1987 and the document with respect to  26 the preparation for that Pole raising Feast is the  27 video and transcript which we have already provided  28 to you and that's one of the exhibits.  29 Then he asked about documents relating to the  30 territory of Hanamuxw including notes made or kept  31 by Neil Sterritt Jr. and others in connection with  32 the preparation of the maps of the territory of  33 Hanamuxw.  And he says they don't require them to be  34 in the format used for the material Mr. Sterritt has  35 already prepared in respect to Kitsegukla.  They  36 requested two models of all of the material with  37 respect to two territories during discovery which we  38 had already provided them with.  With respect to  39 that, I advised Mr. Plant of the material which we  40 had.  The first one was an excerpt from the  41 Barbeau/Baynan material and I understood that those  42 were excerpts with respect to the hunting grounds of  43 Kitsegukla and are not solely Hanamuxw' territories,  44 those were provided.  45 Notes of discussions with Stanley Williams in  46 January of 1987 with Neil Sterritt regarding the  47 territory, that was provided.  Notes of discussions 1314  1 with Stanley William and David Milton with Neil  2 Sterritt, that was provided.  Notes of discussion  3 with Olive Ryan and Neil Sterritt in February of  4 this year, that was provided.  And notes of  5 discussions with Henry Wilson on March 12, 1987 with  6 Neil Sterrit and that was provided.  7 Then I said we have already provided you with the  8 volumes of notebooks, these are the 12 volumes I  9 have referred the court to, which have other  10 references to Hanamuxw territory and they have been  11 in the possession of the Defendants for some time,  12 both Federal and Provincial.  So that is -- I have  13 delivered all of those documents.  Over the lunch  14 hour I have reviewed with Mr. Sterritt whether or  15 not there was a video and apparently there is a  16 video.  And I reviewed that part of the video that  17 refers to the territory which is shown in Exhibit  18 33A.  That video is available for observation by --  19 for examination by my friends.  I determined whether  20 that video had been put on a document list yet.  It  21 had not and I have instructed our people to -- a  22 further document list is being prepared, is almost  23 completed now and all videos with respect to any  24 territories is going to be on that document list.  25 And I -- I was under the impression they had already  26 been put on the list, but they hadn't.  So that  27 video is available for their examination after work  28 today and the sound on the video is not very good.  29 And I can just say the quality of the video it was a  30 cloudy day.  But there is no problem with them  31 reviewing that video this afternoon.  So that deals  32 with all of the requests as I understand it of Mr.  33 Plant and the only outstanding matter is the video  34 which is -- I had not reviewed with respect to -- I  35 had not responded to and I was unaware that that  36 video existed.  And I thought that any videos that  37 did were on our list of documents. With  38 respect to the request of Macaulay, I have spoken  39 with Morrell and recently -- and I believe they are  40 all recent, he did have interviews with the witness.  41 And I asked him -- he is in Hazelton and I am  42 arranging to get all of -- any of those interviews.  43 I don't think -- there is not very many, delivered  44 to us.  45 With respect to interviews with Mrs. Ryan  46 regarding fishing sites, I can advise the court that  47 Mr. Morrell indicated that most of those interviews 1315  1 that he did were with respect to finishing  2 technology and fishing management, practices of the  3 Gitksan.  With respect to the fishing sites, the  4 most of the material was interviews with counsel  5 that were done in 1983 for the proper action.  Any  6 interviews that are not -- those interviews we will  7 be claiming privilege on, but any other interviews  8 with her with respect to any of -- not only fishing  9 sites, but fishing technology, fishing management,  10 fishing conservation, I have instructed Mr. Morrell  11 to get those for me and I believe all of those will  12 be down for me tonight.  And I will be able to have  13 them for Mr. Macaulay's review later tonight or  14 tomorrow morning, first thing tomorrow morning.  15 That, as I understand it, deals with the concerns of  16 Macauley has raised.  17 With respect to the preparation and the  18 availability of the next witness, my lord, if I -- I  19 want to advise the court that if I had been aware of  20 these specific concerns with respect to the  21 cross-examination of this specific witness even as  22 late as the end of last week this problem would not  23 have arisen now.  We have been trying to pace our  24 witnesses and have everything organized.  I have  25 advised Mr. Rush as to when I anticipated this  26 witness could be completed.  He has advised me that  27 he cannot -- he is not able to start his witness  28 today.  We anticipated that cross-examination would  29 go on for today and part of tomorrow.  He will  30 ensure that he is available to start with that  31 witness first thing tomorrow morning.  32 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, in reply to what Mr. Grant said, perhaps  34 I should first read what his export Morrell has to  35 say.  At page 3 of his report he says:  36  37 "I have been involved in many formal  38 interviews as well as informal discussions  39 with elders and hereditary Chiefs regarding  40 Indian fishing management and history."  41  42 Then at page 15 he says:  43  44 "In the atlas map YY shows the distribution of  45 fishing resources within the Gitksan and  46 Wet'suwet'en territory and map ZZ shows the  47 regional distribution of fishing resources." 1316  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 THE  33  34 MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT  GRANT  Then in the appendix 1.  This is a report that has  been prepared for other purposes in May of 1985.  At  page 14 of that he says under the heading Study  Methods, so they're relying on this.  "Information on traditional fisheries is collected  by the tribal council of workers.  In interviews  with Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en elders interviews in  the two native languages were taped, recorded and  later translated and transcribed in English by the  interviewers.  Much of the information in the  interviews is regarded as property of the Houses.  Tribal council has promised the intervieweese to  keep the original tapes and transcripts  confidential."  It appears that there are tapes, there are  translations, there are translations and  transcriptions as well as the maps.  Of course we can  only guess at what the two maps are that he is  referring to.  Now, if Morrell is referring to any --  relying on any material -- I will put it another way.  To the extent that the Morrell is relying on material  gathered in the fashion indicated, my friends, the  Plaintiffs, can not claim privilege.  And I am not  asking for a look into counsel's brief and that's not  what we are discussing.  And it appears now according  to Mr. Grant that there is indeed -- there are indeed  interviews or an interview or interviews with this  witness.  And perhaps other members of that House.  :  Mr. Grant, when will these two maps be ready XX and  YY or ZZ, whatever it is?  :  Well, these maps is what -- this is what Mr.  Morrell -- what these maps entail, of course, is  putting together all of this data into a cartographic  form.  Mr. Morrell has been working on this and  presently is endeavouring to have this material  couriered down.  He has indicated to me in my  discussion with him that he wanted to get that -- he  had material to the couriered to the cartographer  today and he will be working on that until 3:30 he has  the other material he believes he can get done and  deliver down to me tonight.  Because of the concern to  get those maps done and counsel -- I want to emphasize  to the court, counsel has wanted these maps, counsel  for the Plaintiffs as much as any other counsel.  But 1317  1 I have said to him to go ahead and get that material  2 couriered down.  With respect to what my friend has  3 referred to, he does refer to,  he does refer to an  4 issue of confidentiality.  There is no problem with  5 that as far as I am concerned and when I --I may have  6 mislead Mr. Macauley.  The transcript that I am  7 intending to give him refer to all of those areas in  8 which he has just alluded to.  It's not only  9 interviews just with Mr. Morrell, but I am going to  10 disclose to him interviews of the witness by  11 researchers working with Morrell or in anyway relating  12 to any of the fisheries.  So all and any of that  13 material is being gathered and, as I have indicated,  14 the first part of that will be available to him  15 earlier this evening and I think the balance later  16 this evening.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Plant?  18 MR. PLANT:  Well, my lord, I have only two or three points.  My  19 friend refers to my letter of June 9th and the  20 requests that were made in it.  That, of course, is a  21 letter which he, in the ordinary course, never have  22 been sent.  There was a demand made and requests were  23 made for specific documents long ago and it is not  24 really relevant to this that -- all that that letter  25 does is indicate that there are documents which, if my  26 friend goes digging at the last moment he finds them.  27 But my friend referred in his submissions to the fact  28 that we haven't specifically asked up until this point  29 for documents of Hanumuxw.  Well, my friend didn't  30 give us any notice that Hanamuxw was to be giving  31 evidence, and more to the point, that someone other  32 than the Chief, namely Mrs. Ryan, would be giving  33 evidence on behalf of that House.  So it certainly  34 puts a difficult burden on a Defendant if the -- we  35 are expected to make specific requests for the  36 production of documents relating to the evidence of  37 witnesses that we don't know whether or not they are  38 going to be called.  My friend has responded to  39 certain of the requests that are contained in the June  40 9th letter and he has made certain statements with  41 respect to the documents that Mr. Morrell has  42 obtained.  If my friend is able to give your Lordship  43 an assurance that he has now produced or will when he  44 produces Mr. Morrell's notes and this video, that he  45 has now produced all of the documentary evidence which  46 is in the possession of the Plaintiffs, and I don't  47 mean just Mrs. Ryan, I mean all of the Plaintiffs 131?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  relating to the evidence which this witness has given,  then I am prepared to proceed.  And that includes  the -- any documents that maybe in the possession of  the tribal council.  COURT:  I don't suppose you are able to respond to that, are  you, Mr. Grant?  GRANT:  Well, my lord, I think -- I mean as counsel I don't  want to give an assurance to the court where I -- of  something that -- that I don't know.  What I can  assure the court of is this, that first of all on the  second day of trial we gave notice as to the witness  Mrs. Ryan, we gave notice as to the House.  On the  June 9th letter my friend said there are specific  things we want with respect to this witness and so I  made sure those were there.  I have endeavored to have  disclosed all the documents which are relevant to this  witness.  I can't -- there may be some documents that  are out there somewhere, my lord, that I don't know  about.  But I am endeavouring to provide full  disclosure of all of those documents with respect to  this witness.  And I can advise the court that I have  made my best efforts and I am satisfied that except  for the video and this material and these transcripts  of Mr.  Morrell and others, interviews with the  witness relating to the fishing sites, other than that  material that I have provided the full disclosure to  the best of my ability.  And if something comes up  that I am not aware of then I -- I can't say anymore  about that, but I am certainly trying to provide full  disclosure.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  It's impossible to know in a  matter of this kind whether fairness or unfairness  necessary will result.  These are distasteful matters  that should never take place in the course of a trial.  They seem to be taking place too frequently in the  course of this trial, but I think they must stop.  But  I think the trial must go on.  We just can't take an  afternoon off except in the most serious  circumstances.  I think that the cross-examination  should proceed.  I think that Mr. Plant and Mr.  Macaulay should have leave to renew their application  when when see the rest of the material that is going  to be presented to them.  And at that time as they say  as counsel condition carried on then the  cross-examination should be stood down, but I think we  should get underway and see how far counsel can go  with Mrs. Ryan this afternoon.  And as I said if they 1319  1 can't go on tomorrow after they have seen the rest of  2 the material then at least Mr. Rush will be ready to  3 proceed with the next witness.  I will put that  4 decision off until then.  5 THE COURT:  Mrs. Ryan, will you come back, please.  6 REGISTRAR:  Witness, I remind you you are still under oath.  7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  8 Q    Mrs. Ryan, you are born in 1915 in Andimaul?  Yes.  Andimaul was a village on the Skeena, wasn't it?  Yes.  It's down river from Kitsegukla?  Yes.  Was there a school there?  No.  Did you go to school?  I go to school in Kitwanga when I stayed with my  Uncle.  In Kitwanga?  Yes.  And how many years did you attend school?  Four years.  Did you learn to read English?  A little bit.  You were born in Andimaul because your mother lived  there?  Yes.  And your father lived there?  Yes.  Your father was Captain Rankin in the Salvation  Army?  Yes.  He was a white man?  Yes.  And did your grandmother, Fanny Johnson, did she  also live in Andimaul?  Yes, she adopted me after my mother died.  She raised you?  Yes.  Your mother died when you were three?  Yes.  She died in 1918.  Your grandmother held the name Hanamuxw?  Yes.  And did the people -- the people of the house of  Hanamuxw left Kitsegukla to go to Andimaul, didn't  they?  Just her.  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A 1320  Just her, none of the other members of the House  left?  Well, Gwaans was in Kitsegukla, part of Hanamuxw'  house.  And did this happen before you were born?  I guess  it must have happened before you were born?  Yes.  Because your grandmother left for Andimaul?  Yes.  There was a religous fight in Kitsgukla, wasn't  there?  Yes, I know.  And some of the Kitsegukla people, including your  grandmother, went to Andimaul?  Yes.  And that was the Salvation Army;s place, wasn't it?  Yes.  And some of the Kitsegukla people went to **Carnaby?  Yes.  And that was the Methodist?  Methodist, yeah.  Most of the people did -- left Kitsgukla, didn't  they?  Yes.  Just a few stayed behind?  Just one Chief who stayed behind.  And was that Peter Milton?  No, Moses Yuu k'intxw.  Xsgogimlaxha members in the  House.  I am sorry, I didn't hear the other name?  Yuu k'intxw, that's his chief name, Yuu  k'intxw.  And what was the house that he belonged to?  Xsgogimlaxha.  35 MR. PLANT:  Do you have the spelling for that?  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yuu k'intxw —  37 THE COURT:  What are you spelling, please?  38 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yuu k'intxw, Y-U-U K apostrophe I-N-T-X-W.  39 THE COURT:  Thank you.  And the house was?  40 MR. PLANT:  Xsgogimlaxha is number 87, my lord.  41 THE COURT:  Thank you.  42 MR. PLANT:  43 Q And you lived in Andimaul until 1929?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Where did you move then?  46 A I moved to Kitsgukla.  47 Q Back to Kitsegukla?  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A 1321  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41 MR.  GRANT  42  43  44  45 THE  COURT  4 6 MR.  GRANT  47  Mh'm.  I would like you to have a look at the photograph  which is tab 13 in Exhibit 29.  Do you remember  looking at that photograph when you gave evidence  earlier?  Yes.  And do you remember that's a photograph of the  Village of Kitsegukla?  Yes.  Is it the Village of Old Kitsegukla?  Down beside the river, river side.  Do you know when that photograph was taken?  No.  You don't know who took it?  I don't know.  I can't tell you.  Did you ever see the village when it looked just  like that in that photograph?  Yes yes.  You see that -- that fuzzy white line that appears  above that pole which is just to the left of the  center of the photograph?  Do you see that line  there?  Yes.  This one that's when we go out and cut the  wood and that's the trail there.  That's a trail?  When they go out cutting wood for the village,  that's the trail there.  Do you think it might be the aerial tramway?  No.  Was there an aerial tramway up behind your territory  on the Skeena River?  Well, that's before the -- when it's taken that  picture it was -- no, there is no line there that  as far as I know.  This is the old village.  Do you remember the tramway?  Do you know what I  mean when I say "tramway'?  Yes.  Do you remember the tram?  But I can't remember this one.  You can't remember the tramway?  Well, maybe my friend -- I am not sure where my  friend is referring to.  I know where he is  referring on the photo, but he is now asking the  witness do you remember the tramway.  Do you mean at Kitsegukla?  There may be more than one.  I don't think he should  ask her what he is referring to. 1322  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  PLANT  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GRANT  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  MR.  PLANT  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Well, are you talking about a tramway at Kitsegukla?  I thought that I had made that clear in the  question, my lord.  Well, make it abundantly clear.  Mrs. Ryan?  Yes.  Don't worry about the photograph, just put your mind  back to the village of Kitsgukla, back where it was  on the lower part of the bank by the River?  Yes.  And do you know that -- you have told us about  Stekyooden?  Yes.  I am sorry --  You mixed up.  Yes, I am mixed up.  You know the mountain that is  behind Smithers, the Hudson Bay Mountain?  I am very  mixed up here.  I have to get my geography straight.  You're far out.  He is moving farther and farther away from  Kitsegukla.  I am.  When you were a girl, was there a tramway going up  the mountain there?  No.  Any place near Hazelton or Kitsgukla?  I never see it on top of the village.  Well, think about just a little bit towards Hazelton  Roche de Boule?  Oh, yeah.  Is there a tramway up Roche de Boule?  Yes.  Is is that anywhere near your territory?  Close.  And that's —  On the other side was Guxsan.  And was that tramway there when you were a little  girl?  Yes.  Do you remember what it was used for?  Well, they were Red Rose operating that  time.  And what was Red Rose?  That's a mine.  So there was a mine up the mountain?  Yes. 1323  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  A  21  MR.  PLANT  22  Q  23  A  24  MR.  GRANT  25  MR.  PLANT  26  Q  27  A  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  PLANT  30  THE  COURT  31  32  A  33  MR.  PLANT  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  And that mine was there when you were a little girl?  Yes.  Did any of the men from Kitsegukla work in that  mine?  No, just white people.  Just the while people.  Now, I would like to look at the photograph which is  tab 12 in Exhibit 29.  And I have put that  photograph in front of you.  Do you know when that  photograph was taken, Mrs. Ryan?  No.  There is a photograph -- or rather there is a  picture.  In that picture there is a church I think  you said?  Yes.  And that's off to the left-hand side?  Yes.  And you are pointing at that white roof that is --  Yes, right here.  Down in the lower level or up above?  Right here.  It's on the lower level?  Yes.  She is pointing on the lower level.  What church was that?  Methodist.  I am sorry, I didn't hear what she said.  Methodist.  Methodist, thank you.  This is Kitsegukla taken from  the other side of the river, is it?  Yes.  You remember the year of the flood, 1936?  Yes.  Were you living in Kitsegukla then?  No, up in Kitwanga.  Up in where?  Kitwanga.  I should say Kitwangax.  What happened to the Village of Kitsegukla in the  flood?  Well, some of the houses already on top, but the  other, the rest of the houses were down that time.  Just Chief Mool'xan's house was still there on the  river side.  And what happened to his house?  Well, they trying to protect it -- to protect that 1324  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  Q  46  A  47  MR.  PLANT  house when the water was cover the village.  And were there totem poles down by the river side?  There was totem pole went down.  The totem poles were -- some of the totem poles were  Washed out, weren't they?  Yes.  Some of the totem poles were lost, weren't they?  Yes,  And some were eventually found again?  Just one left that I mention this morning that  called Gilhaast, that's Gwis gyen's pole.  So Gwis gyen's pole survived the flood?  Yes.  But none of the other poles did?  The rest of the poles washed away.  And would that apply, then, to all of the poles  along the lower bank here?  Yes.  In this photograph which is tab 12, I think at  Exhibit 29.  See right there.  This is Gilhaast was still  there.  The tall pole?  Yes.  It's just to the right of the center of the  photograph?  That's Gwis gyen's pole.  It appears to be two poles to the left of --  One here.  And this is Hanamuxw pole and then the  totem pole that I was talking about this morning  about the Gilhaast.  It's just to the left of the pole which has the red  X at the bottom, isn't it?  Just for the record there is the fourth pole to  the -- from the right-hand side of the photograph  and if you include that very short pole, it's quite  an tall one.  Dark color?  I would ask maybe the witness or if it could be  marked with a 1 or something underneath for the  court's assistance.  That's the pole that wasn't washed away?  Yes.  But it's the tall pole?  Yes.  Which is, as my friend says, the fourth pole from 1325  1  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  MR.  PLANT  8  THE  COURT  9  A  10  THE  TRANL.  11  A  12  MR.  PLANT  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  27  28  MR.  PLANT  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  PLANT  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  the right of the picture if you count the short  pole. I don't think it's necessary to mark it.  Well, it may assist the court.  Well, I have marked my copy.  I have marked it as  the only pole left after the '36 flood.  That's  correct, isn't it?  That's my understanding of the evidence.  And whose pole was it again, Gilhaast?  Gwis gyen.  3R:  Number 22.  That's Stanley Williams.  That's who holds the name today.  He wasn't  Gwis gyen in 1936,though,  was he?  Oh, yeah, he was.  When you say:  Oh, yes, you mean he wasn't?  He was.  Was Stanley Williams Gwis gyen --  Yeah.  — in 1936?  Well, he already hold the name that time.  Back in 1936?  Yes.  My lord, the point I want to make was that you  referred to another name.  She said Gilhaast  which was the name of the pole was the evidence she  gave this morning, G-I-L-H-A-A-S-T.  Gwis gyen is number 22 on the List of the  Plaintiffs.  Thank you.  When you were a little girl, how many poles did  Hanamuxw have in the village of Kitsegukla?  Well, there is two, one is washed away in 1936.  And one was washed away and then the --  Yes.  -- the other pole was still --  It was still up at that time.  Was it up or was it down on the ground?  Yeah, it's up.  And is that the pole --  And they used to move to make it solid at that time  when the water cover the whole village.  The same  as I was talking about Gilhaast, that's what they  did.  But some of them are washed away.  The people  in the village trying to safe those poles, but the  water was too much. 1326  Would it be fair to say that most of the poles were  washed away?  Yes.  They were gone forever?  Yes.  One of Hanamux' poles was washed away and gone  forever?  Yeah.  The other pole --  Was still up.  -- was still up.  Yes.  It was held up by ropes?  Yes.  And that was the pole that Jeffrey Johnson --  Yes.  He put that pole up in 1945?  Yeah, they moved it up in the new village.  After he had it fixed?  Yeah.  Who were some of the other chiefs who lost their  poles in 1936?  Well, Gwis gyen of lost his pole.   And 'Wiss t'is  and Gaxsbgabaxs and Gwagl'lo.  Giskaast, some of  them Giskaast lost a pole.  Xsgogimlaxha.  Xsgogimlaxha lost his pole?  Yes.  Did Wiigyet have a pole in Kitsegukla?  Yes.  And is it one of the poles in this photograph tab 7?  Well, Wiigyet was -- used to totem pole as an  mediigam tsuu 'wii aks.  That's the name of the pole?  Yes.  And was it one of the poles that was washed out at  the time of the flood?  Yes.  Where is Wiigyet's pole today?  They have a new pole in the Village of Kitsegukla.  They don't have a pole?  He have one in Kitsegukla.  Is it —  Yes, that's Steven Morgan was raised that pole  before he died.  When was that?  Between 1930 and 1929, I think.  47 THE COURT:  Is that when he died or when the pole was raised?  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A 1327  1  A  2 THE  COURT  3  A  4  5 THE  COURT  6  A  7  8 THE  COURT  9  A  10 THE  COURT  11  A  12 MR.  PLANT  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes.  Pardon me?  Did he die in 1929 or 1930 or —  Well, before he died when they raised the pole.  There was a --  Did he die in 1929 or 1930?  Well, that's before he died when they raised the  pole.  Did they raise the pole in 1929 or 1930?  Well, I can't remember.  Approximately?  Yeah.  Was the pole raised before --  Yes, yes.  Was it raised before the flood?  No, after.  If the pole was raised after the flood?  Yes.  And the flood was 1936?  Yes.  So he must have died after the flood?  Yes.  Was Wiigyet's -- and I think you set that Wiigyet  had a pole that was washed out in the flood?  Yes.  Did he lose his power when the pole was washed out?  No.  Why is that?  You have to replace the pole and the people  who recognized him, that's the reason why they put  the new pole because the pole was gone.  And so when the pole was washed away that didn't  mean that the Chief lost his power?  No, no.  The does Xsgogimlaxha have a totem pole today?  I think he is trying to -- planning to make a new  one.  Does he have an old one somewhere?  Well, behind his house I think that's where the  other pole is there, the really old pole.  They put  it in behind his house.  It is lying on the ground?  Yes.  Not very much left, as far as I know.  Was it one of the poles that was washed away?  Yes.  And so after it was washed away it was put behind  Xsgogimlaxha's has house? 132?  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27 THE  TRANS  2 8 MR.  PLANT  29  Q  30  A  31 THE  COURT  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Well, they saved the old pole, real old pole and  moved it up and that's what he did, he put it in  behind his house.  And he is hoping to or planning to --  Yeah, he is planning to make a new one.  Was there a Chief in Kitsegukla --  Yes.  I am glad we have that straight.  Was there a Chiei  in Kitsegukla with the name 'Niis T'oo?  'Niis T'oo.  Does that name sound familiar?  Yeah, that's Frogs.  We talking about the  Gitskan?  And now you are telling me about a Frog Chief?  Yes.  Xsgogimlaxha is a Giskaast?  Yes.  Wiigyet is Giskaast?  Mh'm.  Well, now I want to ask you about 'Niis T'oo.  And you say he is a Frog Chief?  'Niis T'oo?  'Niis T'oo?.  Yeah, that's a Frog.  Is he a Chief?  Well, that's in Duubisxw' House.  LATOR:  Number 6.  :  Number 6.  Did 'Niis T'oo have a pole?  No, 'Niis T'oo's still up there in Kitsegukla.  :  I am sorry, his pole is still up in Kitsgukla?  Duubisxw' pole is still up in Kitsegukla.  Now, you married Phillip Ryan in 1930?  Yes.  Was there a Feast then?  Yes.  Do you remember what month you married him in?  March — March 29, 1930.  And was it a Gitksan Feast?  Yes.  To celebrate your marriage?  Yes.  But the wedding cake was there.  The wedding  cake was there.  Where did you live after your marriage?  Pardon me?  Where did you live after your marriage?  After you  married Phillip Ryan in 1930, where did you live? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30 THE  TRANS  31  A  32 MR.  PLANT  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  1329  We were staying at their parents.  We stayed with  Jim Ryan and Maggie Ryan in Kitwangax.  On the reserve in Kitiwangax?  Yes.  Did Phillip work?  He own the taxi and his dad owns a store there.  And he owned a taxi?  Yes.  And he worked in the store?  Yes.  Now, your second daughter is Joan?  Yes.  And she was born in 1932?  Yes.  Was there a Feast when she was born?  Well, Phillip's relations to come when Joan was  born.  They -- Jim Ryan invited the relation at  Kitiwangax.  They all come down and that's when they  gather after Joan was born.  And Joan received a name?  Yes.  And would it be correct to say that that was a  Feast, some kind of a Feast or --  Well, that's a Feast.  That's what they do.  The  Gitksan always do that when a child was born and  they gather, the father's side.  And they come and  they hold the baby.  They call it iinoowhlxw.  That's the name of the Feast?  Feast, yeah.  rOR:  Can I get that?  Iinoowhlxw.  Iinooxhlxw.  Did the police interfere with that Feast?  Pardon me?  Did the police interfere with that Feast, did they  come to that Feast when your daughter Joan received  her name?  Well, the people were gathered at the time.  And did any police come?  Police, no, no.  There were police?  No.  And when you were married to your husband Phillip in  1930 and there was a wedding cake and there was a  Feast.  The police didn't come to that either?  No, no, no.  In those days the Gitksan people had Feasts quite 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1330  frequently, didn't they?  Yes.  And the police never came to the Feasts, did they?  Well, there is nobody out there, just a wedding  Feast.  And there is no -- that's the reason why the  police didn't come.  But the Chiefs don't allow  the police to come.  Did you ever hear of Jimmy Michell of Moricetown?  Do you know where Moricetown is?  Yes.  And did you ever hear of after Chief named Jimmy  Michell?  I heard the name.  And was he a Chief in Moricetown?  Yes.  Do you remember a Feast when he acquired his name,  when he became a Head Chief?  Yes.  That was in 1930, wasn't it?  Yes.  That was a big Feast, wasn't it?  Yes.  Did it go on for several days?  Yes.  Did you attend it?  Yes.  And did the police come to that Feast?  Well, they order them to stay away.  And so nobody interfered with it, did they?  No.  Now, you have told us about Jeffrey Johnson Feast in  1945.  Do you remember telling us about that?  That  was the Feast for the raising of the pole.  Yes.  Jeffrey Johnson was quite well off, wasn't he?  Yes.  He had some -- he had several teams of horses?  Yes.  And some houses or maybe at least one house, any  way?  One house.  Did he have a sawmill?  Yeah, he did.  He had a truck?  Yes.  He also worked as a commercial fisherman, didn't he?  Yeah. 1331  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  PLANT  21  A  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  PLANT  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  MR.  GRANT  47  MR.  PLANT  In fact, he worked as a commercial fisherman before  you were born, didn't he?  Yes.  And now you -- you have told us -- and I think it  may have been in the 1950's that Jeffrey moved from  Kitsegukla to Hazelton?  Yes.  Am I approximately right in the time, is it some  time in the 1950's?  Yes.  Do you remember if it was before or after your  husband Phillip died?  That's before Phillip died.  He died in 1957.  That's right.  So Jeffrey Johnson moved up to  Hazelton.  Yes.  Before that?  Yes.  I am sorry, Phillip died in 1957?  Yes.  Yes.  '57.  And you know that Jeffrey Johnson became a member of  the band council in Hazelton, didn't  he?  Yes.  Now, when Jeffrey moved -- Jeffrey Johnson moved to  Hazelton, was that when Hanamuxw' House began to  lose the dax gyet?  Not really.  They still count Hanamuxw  because I was there.  Because you were there?  Yeah, and Phillip Sutton was there and Arthur  Howard.  And what?  Arthur Howar was there.  Arthur Howard?  Yes, he was a member of the Kitsegukla.  And he is a member of the House in Hanamuxw?  Yes, yes.  When you gave evidence on the 10th of June just a  few days ago, you talked about why you -- you made  the decision to raise a new pole.  And Mr. Grant  asked you this question.  He asked --  What page?  I am reading from 1051, line 9 of the transcript. 1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  2 8 MR.  GRANT  2 9 MR.  PLANT  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  1332  Mr. Grant asked you this.  "And can you tell the  court why you decided to raise a new pole?"  And the  answer you gave was this.  You said:  "Because  Jeffrey moved to Hazelton."  Yes.  And we just about lost the dax gyet --  Yes.  -- in Kitsegukla?  Yeah, that was the reason we decided to make a new  pole because the Hanamuxw was there, but the other  people were trying to ignore the name Hanamuxw.  That's the reason why we decided to put a new pole.  And when did this happen?  Well, 1970 when the council pulled the pole out.  And they moved it and the other places.  So this began -- this happened in 1970.  Was that  when the band council moved the pole?  Yes, yes, that's the same one.  And that was to Tom Moore's place?  Yes.  And which band council was it?  Kitsegukla.  Do you remember who the member of the band council  were?  Well, I believe the same one now, but except Joe  Wright wasn't in the council.  Joe Wright was in the council?  "Wasn't".  The answer was "wasn't."  Joe Wright  - in 1970 was Joe Wright --  Yes.  Just wait until I finish my question.  In 1970 was  Joe Wright on the band council?  Yes, I think so.  You think he was?  Yes.  Is he a Chief, a Gitksan Chief?  Well, he's Xsgogimlaxha.  And do you remember who some of the other members of  the band council were?  Kenny Russell was the Chief council that time.  Kenny Russell?  Yes.  Was he a Chief?  Well, that belongs to Kitwancool Chief.  That's in  Haits'imsxw' house in Kitwancool.  But his dad was  in Kitsgukla.  Betty Russell's son. 1333  1 Q Ken Russell -- Ken Russell's father was in  2 Kitsegukla?  3 A Yeah, Wii gyet, Wii gyet.  4 Q And Ken Russell's house was a Kitwancool House?  5 A Yes.  6 Q And you said Haits'imsxw.  7 A Haits'imsxw.  8 MR. PLANT: Do you have that?  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 31.  10 MR. PLANT:  11 Q And who were the other members of the band council  12 that you say you think moved this pole?  13 A Well, I -- I can't remember the names, but I know  14 Joe Wright was there and Raymond Jones.  And I guess  15 I guess Charles Clifford.  And I don't know the rest  16 of the council, but I remember Kenny and Raymond  17 Jones.  18 Q And they were all Gitksan people?  19 A Yes.  20 Q And it was in 1970 that this pole was moved?  21 A Yes.  22 Q Who was Tom Moore?  23 A Tom Moore is Miluulak is from Gisgaga'as.  My great  24 aunt was married to him.  Ida Moore, my great aunt.  25 Q Ida Moore?  26 A Yes.  27 Q Did you say that Tom Moore was Miluulak.  28 A Yes.  29 Q Is that the name that Alice Jeffries holds today?  30 A Yes.  31 Q And what clan is that?  32 A Frog.  33 Q That's number 49.  34 Q Did Tom Moore have any claim to the ownership of  35 Hanamuxw' pole?  36 A No.  37 Q When you answered Mr. Grant's question about why you  38 decided to raise a new pole, you said the people in  39 the village ignored us.  Do you remember saying  40 that?  41 A Yes, I remember.  42 Q And you remember that happening?  43 A Yes.  44 Q Not a very pleasant experience?  45 A No.  46 Q And what village Kitsegukla?  47 A Kitsegukla. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  1334  Who were the people who ignored you?  Well, the rest of the people in the village, even  the council.  What do you mean when you say they ignored you?  Well, they don't talk to me, you know.  Everything  was going on in the village, they didn't tell me.  Just lately when they invited me every meeting, as  far as I know.  Did they stop inn inviting you to the Feasts?  Yes, sometimes.  They don't call me.  They not  invited me sometimes.  And when the Gitksan people ignore you, does that  mean that you lose your seat at the Feast table?  Yes.  Did that happen --  The rest of them are making fun of me if they don't  see me at the Feast hall.  They make fun of you have when you were not there?  Yes.  Losing this respect means that the people don't  recognize your power as a chief, doesn't it?  Yes.  Does it also mean that they won't recognize your  rights as a chief?  Yes.  And that might include your rights to the territory?  Yes.  So there might be some problem with your territory?  Yes.  Was there some problem with your territory?  Not really.  But they still count in hunting  ground.  Well, I thought you said that -- that perhaps one of  the problems was that -- was that if you -- if the  people ignored you then they wouldn't -- they  wouldn't recognize your rights to the territory; is  that right?  They trying to do that, but I know that Hanamuxw'  hunting ground there still, even though they  don't know me, they ignore me, but it's still  Hanamuxw' hunting ground there.  In your mind?  In my mind.  You knew it was still there?  Yes.  The problem was that the other Chiefs and the other  people in the village didn't agree with you? 1335  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  THE  COURT:  15  A  16  THE  COURT:  17  A  18  MR.  PLANT:  19  A  20  INTERPRETER  21  THE  COURT:  22  23  A  24  THE  COURT:  25  MR.  PLANT:  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Yes.  They just pretending.  And that happened because the pole was moved?  Yes.  Do you know why the pole was moved?  Well, they planning to give the ground to the  school, to the school and that's it the reason why  they moved the pole and tear the house down.  And was the band council that was planning to --  Yes.  Planning to build the school?  Yes, and they gave the land to the school after they  moved the pole and tear the house down.  Excuse me.  Mrs. Ryan, what were the Chiefs pretending?  Well, ignoring Hanamuxw, those people?  You mean they were pretending to ignore her?  Yes.  Mr. Interpreter, is the witness?  I was just asking him --  : I couldn't hear.  It's  twenty-five to three and we are going to take  a break in ten minutes, all right?  All right.  You let me know if you want to adjourn sooner.  Now, after Jeffrey Johnson moved to Hazelton --  Yes.  He was still working for the packing company at the  coast, wasn't he?  Yes,  And do you remember that he got sick and he spent  some time in the hospital in Prince Rupert?  Yes.  A couple months in Miller Bay.  Miller Bay?  Yes.  I am sorry, you said a couple of months?  Yes.  Do you know who looked after his wife Martha and her  children?  Martha was married to Arthur after Jeffrey died.  Well, when Jeffrey Johnson was in the hospital, his  family were -- received money from the Indian agent  to get by, didn't they?  Well, I don't know, I can't say.  You don't know.  Where were you living at this time?  I was still in Kitwangax.  Why did you ask me for  that? 1336  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  MR.  GRANT  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  19  MR.  PLANT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  MR.  PLANT  22  Q  23  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  28  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  46  47  MR.  PLANT  Why did I ask you?  Yes.  Well, if you want to talk about it after we are  finished I will let you know.  Well, I just want to raise one point, my lord.  My  understanding is that this information relating to  the family of the Jeffrey Johnson comes out of the  estate files that are provided in the Federal  Government list which we deal with in due course.  And I think that's -- I presume my friend isn't  putting any documents to the witness on it, but I am  concerned about the disclosure of information which  I don't know what the relevancy is.  And if my  friend is questioning about income received by  Jeffrey Johnson from the Indian agent, I would like  to know what the relevance of that is.  Well, the witness says she doesn't know about it any  way.  And I am not pursuing it anymore.  Fine.  It is true, isn't it, Mrs. Ryan, that sometimes the  government gives money to Indian families to help  them look after themselves, isn't it?  Well, my lord, this raises the same point.  I want  to know what this relevance is to the proceedings  that the Indian agent is giving money to Indian  families because it gets into the personal affairs  of the family and if it's relevant, fine, but I  can't see the relevance on the pleadings.  Well, Mr. Plant.  Well, the issue, in part, is whether these people  are a self-sustaining culture and to what extent  they exist outside the framework of government  activities, including both levels of government.  And my submission would the question of the issue of  whether or not any of the these plaintiffs have  received funds from either level of government is  relevant.  It also goes among others things to the  assertion of jurisdiction over the territory and  over themselves and the proposition that these  people as I have already said exist outside and  independent of the activity of government.  Well, a denial of an allegation of a self-governing  society would hardly, without more, open up this  sort of avenue of investigation.  Well, my submission the -- 1337  1  THE  COURT  2  3  4  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  9  REGISTRAR  10  MR.  PLANT  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  MR.  PLANT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  THE  COURT  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Isn't that a fact?  If the payment of money is a  fact upon which she relies, shouldn't that be  pleaded?  Maybe it is.  I haven't examined the  pleadings carefully for some time and I have read  them.  There is a new trial record filed, my lord.  Well, I don't have that, so I am probably reading  the wrong document any way.  I have the trial record.  My lord, we have pleaded the Indian Act, but I am  not going to pursue this question right now.  All right.  Jeffrey died in 1966, didn't he, Jeffrey Johnson?  Yes, November 1st.  And you have already told us in your evidence that  he left a will?  Yes.  And you have a copy of that will?  Yes.  And after he died his sons Wilmer and Arnold?  Yes.  They inherited his car and his house --  Yes.  -- and his sawmill, didn't they?  Yes.  And they paid his funeral expenses?  We did.  Well, my lord, again I wonder about the will.  It  is --  I am not asking about the will, my lord.  But the relevance of the questioning as to these  other specific requests.  Well, I have the view.  I would be glad to hear  fuller submissions, but I have the tentative view  that this sort of thing does go to the question of  the social organization of the people which is part  of the burden the Plaintiffs have assumed.  There  may be a distinction.  And I expect there will be  argument that there is a distinction between what,  for want of after better term, I can call a communal  title and private property.  We have heard something  about that already without much objection.  As a matter of fact, I think it was part of  the Plaintiff's evidence with Mrs. Johnson about, at  least in re-examination, that property of her  grandfather at Kispiox, the farm and that sort of 133?  1 thing was passed privately to heirs, but Mrs.  2 Johnson made the point that that was different from  3 communal title.  Now, it seems to me that area is an  4 appropriate one for investigation and possibly  5 argument.  But that's a very tentative view I have.  6 If counsel want to argue the point I would be glad  7 to hear what they have to say about it.  8 MR. PLANT:  Well, with respect, a whole premises of the  Plaintiffs case is one of matrimonial descent and,  as I understand it, matrimonial descent has its  highest of all forms of property and perhaps there  may be an exception of certain forms of property.  The question of to what extent there is an exception  may be ultimately a matter of argument, but before  that argument can be advanced your Lordship will  need some evidence on how property is, in fact,  transferred from one gernation to another.  And, with respect, I could take you to the  pleadings, I could take you to other evidence that's  been given.  This is -- lies at the heart of the  assertions of overshift and jurisdiction that are  made in this case and it's a highly relevant area,  in my submission.  Well, it seemed to me, Mr. Grant, that you went in  some detail into the fact that when Jeffrey died the  daughter of the witness, Joan, was selected to be  Chief because the witness was ill and we went into  all of that.  It does seem to me that the succession  to property is an issue in the case.  And, as I say,  there may well be distinciton to be drawn between  different kinds of property, but as presently  advised I had the view that it's a relevant subject  of investigation.  Yeah, I don't at this point wish to make any further  statement.  I will reserve the right to object to  -- depending on the depth to which my friend goes.  I just want to distance myself from the comment that  it's at the heart and center of jurisdiction.  Well, those are counsel's hyperboles that are to be  expected.  GRANT:  Yes, since I led some of the evidence, I didn't want  the court to assume that that was the position that  I have taking.  THE COURT:  I don't take much faith in what the counsel says is  in the heart of his friend's case, but it's what is  in his own case.  Should we perhaps take the  adjournment since we have the interruption and we  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  2 4 THE COURT:  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 MR. GRANT:  35  36  37  38  3 9 THE COURT:  40  41 MR.  42  43  44  45  46  47 1339  1340  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  REGISTRAR:  will resume in a few minutes.  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:44)  I hereby certify the foregoing  transcript, transcribed herein,  to be true and accurate to the best  of my skill and ability.  LISA REID, OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING AN ADJOURNMENT AT 3:05 P.M.)  THE REGISTRAR:  THE COURT:  Mr.  Order in  Plant?  court.  was the Red Rose  CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Mrs. Ryan, is the Red Rose Mine  Mine on the territory of Hanamuxw?  A    Gwis gyen.  Q    Your —  A    It was a little ways down.  Gwaans is little ways  down from there, Red Rose Mine.  Gwaans is a little ways down?  Yes.  Gwaans is the name that you hold?  Yes.  Does Gwaans have her own territory?  Yes.  That's mountain there.  What's the name of the mountain?  Gasila aatxwit.  I don't have the number for that.  421.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. PLANT  THE VOICE  MR. PLANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Your daughter Joan holds the name Hanamuxw today?  Yes.  lives in Prince Rupert?  She  Yes  She  Yes  Has  is a teacher?  she been a  you  teacher for a long  60 or 65, you have  Well, when  amxsiwaa.  Your daughter was born in 1932?  time?  to retire, 1340  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16 MR.  GRANT  17  A  18 MR.  PLANT  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Yes.  She went to school and then she went to university?  Yes.  And then did she start work as a teacher after that?  Yes.  Was she a teacher in 1966 when she became Hanamuxw?  Yes.  Where did she live in 1966?  Prince Rupert.  When she became Hanamuxw, did the chiefs of  Kitsegukla make a special seat at the feast table for  her or at the -- in the Feast Hall?  Well —  I heard something like, he's got a seat in the  Feast.  :  She's got a seat in the Feast?  Yes.  Did she have the same seat -- the same --  The same as Jeffrey Johnson.  The seat didn't change?  No.  You don't have to change the seat.  Was that the seat by the door?  Well, the back.  It was -- was there a special seat made for the seat  by the door?  Well, there is a table for the chiefs, for the head  chiefs at the back and they -- the wings by the door.  And did Hanamuxw sit by the door as one of the  wings?  No, she is a chief.  And she sat at the head table?  Yes.  You told us that there is a Gitksan law about  marriage, the parents choose the --  Yes.  The parents choose the husbands and wives?  Yes.  Does Gitksan law say anything about the age at which  children should get married or young people should get  married?  No.  You were 14 or 15 years old when you were married?  Fifteen.  And you told us about -- beg your pardon?  No, that's all right.  Did you have something you wanted to add to that 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  A  1341  last answer?  When you asked me how old I am when I get married.  Was that not a polite question?  Well —  I am not asking you how old you are today.  Well, put me on the spot.  I will try not to put you on the spot too much more.  Did your Grandmother Fanny select your mother's  husband?  Yes.  It was your Grandmother's, Fanny's, decision that  your mother should marry Captain Rankin?  Yes.  Why was that?  Because he was in Andimaul.  He was the only man in Andimaul?  Yes.  Or something like that?  Yes.  Your daughter Fay, she's married a white man; hasn't  she?  Yes.  George Feenie?  Yes.  Did you choose him?  Well, she was go at that time when he decided to get  married.  You approved of their decision; is that what you are  telling me?  She was away at home, you know, from -- from home to  Vancouver and that's what they decided to get married  to Mr. Feenie.  And that was all right by you?  I beg your pardon?  That was all right by you?  Well, it's about -- you talking about the Gitksan  now, I will answer your question, but the Chiefs,  yeah.  Well, let me see.  Does this law about selection of  husbands and wives --  I know, I understand you.  Would it -- would it apply to your daughter Fay?  Was she governed by that law?  I try to talk to her, you know, about the -- but she  was in love to that man, and I can't take her away  from that man.  Now, your daughter Fay has passed away?  Yes. 1342  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  MR.  PLANT  12  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  17  18  MR.  PLANT  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  THE  TRANS  25  THE  COURT  26  THE  TRANS  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  PLANT  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Where did she live before she died?  Vancouver.  In Vancouver?  Yes.  And she had a son William or Billy?  Yes.  He lives in Seattle?  Mm-hmm.  What's his Gitksan name?  Does he have one?  Yes.  When did he get that name?  You don't have to tell  me what the name is.  I am content with the answer  that he has one but --  Well, it is just that my friend doubled up his  questions and the witness didn't have a chance to  answer.  She was pausing and I just think she should  have a chance to answer.  I was concerned that there was a reluctance on the  part of the witness to give the name?  Oh, you ask me the name of this boy?  I did ask you.  And what is it?  Asi Bax.  TRANSLATOR:  Number 2 on the name list.  I am sorry?  TRANSLATOR:  Number 2 on the name list.  That's tab 1 of Exhibit 29.  Thank you.  And Fay's daughter Roxanne lives in Vancouver?  Yes.  And Fay had a daughter, Georgia?  Yes.  Is she still alive?  No, she died.  You told us about your son Lloyd and your daughter  Philippa?  That's in Alayst.  Alayst's House?  Alayst.  I don't have the number of that but I have that  A-1-a-y-s-t.  That's a Gisgagas House?  Let's me ask  you this --  There is a House in Gisgagas.  It is a Kitwanga House?  Yes.  Kitwanga.  Who is the Chief of that House? 1343  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  THE  COURT  5  A  6  MR.  PLANT  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  MR.  PLANT  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  28  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  A  37  THE  COURT  38  A  39  THE  COURT  40  A  41  MR.  PLANT  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Alayst.  And is there a person who holds that name today?  Well, my son is.  Lloyd?  Yes.  And you told u  That's my husb  What House was  Hak'w's House,  Your daughter  Fernandez?  Yes.  He is a Spanis  Yes.  Who's Irene Bi  Irene?  Yes?  That's my son'  Hartley Bay?  Yes.  And when you s  Jimmy.  :  Jimmy.  :  My lord, there  genealogy on tab  should be an equ  Irene Bird, and  :  Page 2 .  :  Tab 2 page 1,  Phyllis Ryan.  I  and then Irene B  sign there betwe  on the exhibit  :  All right:  Wh  Down the Coast  :  In Canada?  Yes.  That's a  :  Yes.  I am jus  Well, across P  s about Maggie Ryan?  and's mother.  she in?  Frog.  Philippa has married someone named  h person?  rd?  Do you know that name?  s wife.  She is from Hartley Bay.  ay your son, is it your son Lloydl  may have been some confusion on the  2 but in light of what she said there  al sign there between James Ryan and  that's —  first page.  The row that begins with  f you go across, you see James Ryan  ird beside.  There should be an equal  en the two and I ask it to be marked  ere is Hartley Bay?  n Indian Village,  t wondering where?  rince Rupert.  Irene is from the Tsimxsan people?  Yes.  She is an Eagle?  Yes.  Does your son Jimmy have a job?  Well, he used to go down the Coast in springtime. 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  1344  He got a job in Cassiar Cannery.  At the cannery?  Yes.  Was he a commercial fisherman?  No.  He worked in the cannery?  A mechanic.  A mechanic?  Yes.  You have a granddaughter Georgia, Georgia Clifton.  Is she your granddaughter?  Yes.  She is the daughter of your daughter Barbara; isn't  she?  Yes.  And she is married to -- I am sorry, your daughter  Barbara is married to Andrew Clifton?  Yes, from Hartley Bay.  From -- I beg your pardon?  Hartley Bay.  And is that where they live, Barbara and Andrew?  Do  they live down in Hartley Bay?  Barbara staying with me now.  In Kitsegukla?  Yes.  Clifton in Vancouver.  He's got at job down  there.  And your granddaughter Georgia was Barbara's  daughter.  She lives with her children in Ontario;  doesn't she?  Yes.  You have got a son, Eric Ryan?  He is in Vancouver.  He is in Vancouver?  Yes.  Is your daughter Beverley still alive?  Yes.  She is a member of the House of Hanamuxw?  Yes.  Where does she live?  Seattle.  She works in the hospital down there.  Is she a nurse?  Yes.  She is married to William Alexander?  Yes.  He is from Nishga?  Yes.  And your son Victor passed away? 1345  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  2 5 MR.  PLANT  26  27  28  29  30 THE  INTER  31  32 MR.  GRANT  33  34  35 MR.  PLANT  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Yes.  Was he a young boy when he died?  Yes.  Mrs. Ryan, are you aware of the fact that your  daughter Joan was asked some time ago to answer some  questions in writing?  Yes.  Called interrogatories?  Yes.  Do you remember that?  (Nod)  You are nodding yes.  Did you help her with the  answers?  No.  She did that by -- to the best of your knowledge she  did that by herself?  Yes.  She is in Rupert when she do that.  She was in Prince Rupert?  Yes.  One of the questions that she was asked in the  interrogatories -- perhaps I should ask this:  Did you  see these interrogatories at any time?  Have you seen  these answers that your daughter provided?  No.  :  One of the questions that she was asked was this.  Well, she was asked for the names and the places of  residence and the ages and the occupations of the  members of the House of Hanamuxw.  Do you understand  what I have said so far?  I beg your pardon?  PRETER:  Did she tell it, and I said he is still asking  the question.  :  I believe if I remember correctly that Justice  Locke, the answers with respect to occupations, he  said was not required if I remember correctly on that.  Yes.  I am not pursuing that now.  I was trying to  read the question as it was answered -- or asked.  Perhaps I should do this now.  Mrs. Ryan, I am putting before you a document  entitled Affidavits.  Do you see the word Affidavit  there?  Are you able to read that?  You have got us  now in focus.  I want to show you this document called  Affidavit and I ask you to read the first page and the  second page if you can and then to tell me if you can  recognize your daughter's signature on the second  page  9  It is right there. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1346  You are pointing to the place above her name on the  second page?  Yeah.  That's her signature?  Yes.  Now, I referred to a question that I had or a minute  ago I referred to one of the questions in the document  that I have just put to you which is the affidavit  that your daughter swore in answer to the  interrogatories which have been delivered to her.  Can  you see question 24 there?  Question 24 reads:  "What are the names, places of residence,  ages and occupations of the members of your  House".  Do you see that there?  Yes.  And the answer that was given as I read it in as  follows:  "The members of my House whom I recall at  this time and their places of residence and  approximate ages are attached as Schedule  A. "  Do you see that?  Yes.  Now, I am going to turn to the very back and there  is two pages near the end entitled Schedule A,  Hanamuxw House members?  Yes.  Do you see that?  Mm-hmm.  Could you hold that for a few minutes because I have  a few questions to ask you about it?  Now, I may be  repeating myself a little bit but I want -- well,  first of all, have you ever seen these two pages  entitled Schedule A?  I am looking at another copy of  it.  If you look at the copy that your counsel is  showing to you right now, have you ever seen that list  of House members before?  Yes.  Do you remember where you saw it?  Yes.  Do you remember when you saw it?  Yes. 1347  :  When was that?  :  My friend has a smaller copy without all the  affidavits attached.  It may be easier for the witness  to hold.  Absolutely.  If that would be easier, then by all  means.  Yes.  Have you seen that list before?  Yes.  And when was it that you saw it?  Well, every time I -- you know, when I got the copy,  this one at home, that's when I seen it.  You have got a copy of this at home?  At home, yeah.  Have you had a chance to look at the list?  I did one time but I have no time to follow  everything.  I am too busy.  Would you be able to tell me on the basis of your  review of this, are you happy that this is --  Yes, yes.  This is true so far as you know?  Yes.  You are quite confident of that?  Yes.  :  Well, my lord, what I propose doing would be to --  rather than go through the document line by line, to  have question 24 and the answer marked as the next  exhibit.  :  Any objection, Mr. Grant?  Mr. Macaulay?  LAY:  No.  :  All right.  :  Well, my lord, just -- sorry, my lord.  I was  considering.  I don't -- I think that it can go in.  I  am not sure in terms of the evidence of the witness --  I just want to note for the record that the genealogy  dated June 8 at tab 2, I introduced it by saying that  that process was an updating process and there of  course is much earlier -- this list here is February  of this year but I think as you have indicated on  interrogatories can generally go in the first time.  It hasn't been the interrogatory of the witness but I  think it ultimately can go in so I don't think there  is any use holding back now.  :  All right.  The question and answer will be the next  exhibit.  What number, please?  47 THE REGISTRAR:  Fifty-seven.  1  MR.  PLANT  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  5  MR.  PLANT  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  MR.  PLANT  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  MACAU  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46 134?  1 MR.  2 THE  3 THE  4 THE  5  6  7  8 MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  2 6 MR.  27  2 8 MR.  29  30 THE  31  32  33  34  35  36  37 MR.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  PLANT:  I have to obtain a copy from Mrs. Ryan.  COURT:  What number?  REGISTRAR:  Fifty-seven.  COURT:  Fifty-seven, thank you.  (EXHIBIT 57 - QUESTION AND ANSWER 24 OF AFFIDAVIT)  PLANT:  Q    Mrs. Ryan, you live on the Kitsegukla Indian Reserve  today?  A    I am staying in Smithers right now.  Q    Where is your home?  A    Kitsegukla.  Q    On the Indian Reserve?  A    Yes.  Q    And you are a member of the Kitsegukla Band?  A    Yes.  Q    Do you know how many members there are on the Band  list?  A    No.  Q    Do you know how many people live on the Reserve?  A    No.  Q    Do you have an approximate idea of how many people  live on the Reserve?  A    No.  PLANT:  Is it in the order of hundreds or thousands, tens of  thousands of people?  GRANT:  My lord, what's the advantage of this witness  starting to give guesses to the approximate --  COURT:  Mr. Grant, this is cross-examination.  Witnesses  often give an offhand answer.  They don't speak like  lawyers, with a perfect precision that we always  expect of them and sometimes if they are asked a few  more follow-up questions they can come to an answer  sometimes.  I think it is a good question in  cross-examination.  Go ahead.  PLANT:  Q    Did you understand my last question?  A    Yes.  Q    Are you able to answer it?  A    I don't know.  Q    You are not really sure how many people there are?  A    Yeah.  I don't know.  Q    Is there electric lights on the Reserve?  Is there  electric lights there, an electric light on the  Reserve?  A   Are you going to pay the bill? 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  1349  Do you pay the bill, Mrs. Ryan?  Yes, I did.  For the electric light?  Yes.  And the members of the Band that live on the Reserve  own automobiles and trucks, don't they?  I can't -- well, I can't -- what did you -- repeat  again?  Yes.  So far as you know, do the members of the Band  who live on the Reserve, do some of them own  automobiles and trucks?  Well, I seen some cars there but I didn't ask.  You have seen some cars on the Reserve?  Well, if I ask and they will they call me nosey if I  ask them, the people there.  You have seen people who live on the Reserve drive  cars?  Oh, yes.  And there is a school on the Reserve?  Yes.  Is there a church on the Reserve?  Yes, two churches, Salvation Army and United Church  there.  Which church do you go to?  Salvation Army.  Is there a nurse's residence?  Yes.  On the Reserve?  Yes.  Do any of the children on the Reserve go to school  in Hazelton?  Some of them.  Some go to the high school?  Yes.  And you have already told us that I think that --  well, you have told us about your daughter going to  school outside of --  Are you talking about Barbara?  Yes?  Yes.  Do some of the other children on the Reserve go to  school down in Vancouver and in other places like  that?  Yes.  Your daughter went to the University of British  Columbia, your daughter Joan that is?  Yes. 1350  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  23  MR.  PLANT  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  THE  COURT  33  34  35  36  MR.  PLANT  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  And so far as you know, do all of the people on the  Reserve speak English?  Yes, but the old people use their own language.  When they are speaking with each other they use  their own language?  Yes, yes.  Did you vote in the last provincial election?  Well, I don't believe in that.  If I voted and  they -- they not recognized me, and that's -- I don't  agree with that.  Did you vote in the last band council election?  No.  They don't allow the -- like me, the old  pensioners, they don't allow the pensioners to vote.  They don't allow the pensioners to vote?  Yes.  For the band council?  Yes.  You receive a pension?  Why do you ask me for that?  It goes to the question I raised earlier, relevance,  in terms of the monies received by the individual  recipients and I believe you ruled this was not.  There was no ruling with respect.  If my friend is  objecting to this question, I will abandon the  question then.  All right.  I am.  She's already said she is a pensioner so I don't  know what the problem is.  :  Well, I think it's getting into the nitty gritty, my  lord.  :  Well, I am not sure I understand the legal  signification of nitty gritty.  The witness said  because she is a pensioner, she's not allowed to vote  on band council.  Mrs. Ryan, does the CNR railway line pass through  Hanamuxw's berry-picking grounds?  No.  Is it -- does it pass through Hanamuxw's territory,  the railway?  I know --  The railway goes through Hanamuxw's territory,  doesn't it?  Are you talking about the Carnaby?  Yes, I am, the Carnaby territory?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  1351  One of Hanamuxw's territories is right on the Skeena  River, isn't it?  Yes.  This is one of the hunting grounds?  One of the hunting grounds, yes, in the other side  of the Village and one is at Stekyooden, they call it  ga xsilaatxwit.  Does that territory go right down to the Skeena?  Yes.  That's what you told us this morning; wasn't it?  Yes.  And the railway goes over that?  Yes.  And the railway has been there for as long as you  can remember; hasn't it?  Yes.  Do you remember if any --  Before I was born, run there.  Yes.  Do you remember if any of the men from  Andimaul or Kitsegukla worked cutting poles for the  railway?  Do you want me to repeat the question?  Go ahead.  Do you remember if any of the men -- I will ask a  somewhat different question.  Do you remember if any  of the people from Andimaul or Kitsegukla, the Gitksan  people worked on the railroad?  I know Phillip Sutton in Cedarvale.  I remember  Henry Williams in Andimaul.  Henry Williams in Andimaul?  Yes.  Was this when you --  James Weget in Andimaul.  Was this when you were a little girl?  Yes.  What did he do?  Well, he works on the railway.  Do you remember what doing?  All the mens work on the CN.  He worked on the railway?  Yes.  Did any of the men from the Village cut any trees  down to help build the railway?  Do you remember?  The CN was hired the people to cut the ties you  mean?  Yes?  Yes.  And there was some people from Kitsegukla and 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  1352  Andimaul who worked cutting ties; weren't there?  Not very many.  But there were some?  But there were -- they used to order some different  places where the ties came from.  Is that what Henry Williams did?  Yeah, sometimes they helping there.  He cut ties?  Yes.  And what was Henry Williams' House?  He is a Frog and his name is Duubisxw.  Wiigyet.  I beg your pardon, who is Wiigyet?  James Weget.  Did James Weget also cut poles or cut ties?  Yes.  Do you remember where they did that?  They cut it right in Andimaul and the CN pay him for  cut the ties.  Was there a saw mill there?  No, by hand.  They had saws?  Yes.  There was a sawmill in Hazelton, though, wasn't  there?  Just lately.  I beg your pardon?  Just lately when the saw mill's there.  Well, may I have Exhibits 15 and 16, please?  Mrs.  Ryan, I want you to look at two photographs, please?  I can't see.  The first photograph I'd like you to look at has  been marked as Exhibit 15, and one of the things it  says on the back is:  "Indians on the beach at  Hazelton, B.C." and in brackets it says "(copied from  the Department of Mines album dated 1902)".  Now,  that's a picture as I understand it of Hazelton and it  shows some of the log houses that the Gitksan Chiefs  had in Hazelton?  Yes.  Do you recognize that scene?  What year on this?  Well, the photograph says 1902 on the back and that  would be before you were born?  Yeah.  Did you ever see any of the houses up on the top of  the hill?  This houses? 1353  1 MR.  PLANT  2 MR.  GRANT  3  4 MR.  PLANT  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10 MR.  GRANT  11 MR.  PLANT  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  :  You see there?  :  She indicated for the record the houses along the  top.  That's right, and those were some of the houses of  the Gitksan Chiefs, weren't there?  Yes.  You see the pile of cut wood there?  Is that --  :  Which pile?  Well, actually just about all over the right-hand  side of the photograph.  There is some on the lower  right-hand corner, the pile of some lumber that's been  sawed?  Supposed to be build a house for.  That's for the  houses.  It may be.  I -- I wanted you to see if --  Well —  If you could recognize that?  I can't answer that.  There is another photograph I'd like you to look at.  It is Exhibit 16, and in the lower left-hand  photograph corner --  I was one year old when the picture was taken.  I don't know when Exhibit 16 was taken.  Do you know  when this photograph was taken?  It is a different  photograph from the one that we were looking at a  minute ago?  Hazelton.  Yes?  It is a picture of Hazelton; isn't it?  Yes.  I understand there is a sawmill in the lower  left-hand corner of Exhibit 16?  Where is the sawmill?  The large building in the lower left-hand corner?  This is the one.  That may not be a sawmill?  No.  Do you see the pile of wood in the lower left-hand  corner?  Just lumber pile there.  Do you remember whether or not there was a sawmill  in Hazelton when you were a little girl?  I was telling you just I was one year old when the  picture was taken.  Yes? 1354  1  A  2  MR.  PLANT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  6  THE  COURT  7  8  9  THE  WITNE  10  MR.  PLANT  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  PLANT  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  39  A  40  THE  COURT  41  42  MR.  PLANT  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  MR.  PLANT  46  Q  47  This one, I am talking about this one.  :  Yes.  What were you telling me about it?  :  The witness said she was one year old when this was  taken.  I think she is misunderstood.  When he said it  was Exhibit 16, she thought it was 1916.  :  Why don't you put the picture to her and ask her  whether there was a sawmill there when she was a young  person?  3S:  Don't ask me anymore.  That's what I just tried to do.  Try it again.  Do you remember if there was a sawmill in Hazelton  when you were a little girl?  Well, I was lost, you know.  I didn't -- I can't  remember.  You can't remember right now?  (Nod)  I suggest to you that there was a sawmill then?  Yes.  Are you able to admit that or would you rather just  leave it on the basis that you can't remember?  Why did you ask me for that?  Well, I am concerned to know about when things like  sawmills and mines and things like that were  happening?  What for?  Because it is relevant to this case, Mrs. Ryan?  I know.  To know what the white people were doing here a long  time ago and what the Indians were doing?  Yes.  And I suggest to you that --  Are you side for the white man or side for the  Indians?  :  Oh, Mrs. Ryan, let's not get into a discussion.  Let's just answer questions, please.  If you don't  remember --  I can't remember.  :  I think you have gone as far as you can go, Mr.  Plant.  :  Now, I want you to think again about Hanamuxw's  territory.  :  Which one?  My mouth was about to open with words.  I'd like you to think again about Hanamuxw's 1355  MR.  A  Q  A  GRANT  PLANT  Q  A  Q  A  9  10 MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24 THE  25 THE  26  27  2 8 MR. PLANT  29  30  31  32 THE  33  34  35  36  37 MR.  territory along the Skeena, the territory that starts  up high in the mountains and comes down to the Skeena.  You know that territory?  Stekyooden ga xsilaatxwit.  I can't pronounce that name.  That's the name of the  territory that you have just said, isn't it?  Yes.  :  The first 421 on Exhibit 19 or tab 19 of Exhibit 29,  I am sorry.  A  38  39  40  41 THE  42 MR.  43 THE  44  45  4 6 THE  47  And your evidence a few minutes ago and your  evidence this morning was that Hanamuxw's territory  goes right to the river, doesn't it?  Yes.  Does Hanamuxw's territory include the Indian  reserves along the river?  That's what I was telling, explaining that fishing  site by Gwin ap.  That's Hanamuxw's fishing site  there.  There are Indian reserves along the Skeena where  Hanamuxw's territory is, aren't there?  Did you  understand my question?  Yes, but I --  INTERPRETER:  She ask me to explain what he ask.  COURT:  Well, put the question again and Mr. Interpreter  will put the question to the witness in Gitksan and  she can answer that way if she can.  There are Indian reserves -- I am suggesting that  there are Indian reserves along the Skeena River in  the area of Hanamuxw's territory which has the name  that has the number 421?  INTERPRETER:  The reserves of Kitwanga, Kitsegukla and  Hazelton are Indian Reserves.  Gwaans has a fishing  spot at Gwin ap.  That's where people used to live.  Gwaans is -- territory goes all the way down to Gwin  ap.  PLANT:  My lord, my sense is that the witness has had enough  of me for one day.  I am prepared to continue but to  put it somewhat less colloquially, I think she may be  getting a bit tired.  I am in your lordship's hands.  COURT:  What do you say, Mr. Grant?  Do you agree with that?  GRANT:  I do tend to agree with that.  COURT:  All right.  We will give you a rest overnight, Mrs.  Ryan, and we will resume at 10:00 tomorrow morning,  please.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court. 1356  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12 THE COURT:  Thank you, Madam Reporter.  13  14 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:50 P.M. TO JUNE 17, 1987)  15  16 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  17 a true and accurate transcript of the  18 proceedings herein, transcribed to  19 the best of my skill and ability.  20  21  22  23  24 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter.  25 United Reporting Service Ltd.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1357  9  10  11  12

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