Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of David Gunanoot Vol. 1] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 27, 1986

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 1-2  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  DAVID GUNANOOT, a Witness called  on behalf of the Plaintiffs,  duly affirmed, testifies  as  follows:  RALPH MICHELL,  Gitksan Interpreter,  Affirmed.    UPON COMMENCING AT 1.00 p.m., 27 February, 1986  MR. RUSH: We'll start this Commission Evidence of 'Niikyap,  David Gunanoot on February 27th, 1986 and a few preli-  minlary matters have to be dealt with, I would just like  to do that now.  Firstly, I have asked Mr. Plant if he has any  objection  to  having Neil Sterritt assist in some of the  pronunciation of the  Gitksan names and there doesn't  seem to be any difficulty from you on that count?  MR. PLANT: That's correct.  MR. RUSH: Secondly, what I  would like to do is have Mr. Ralph  Michell, who is also here with us today, to be sworn  as a translator  to be used to assist us to translate  in the event that it's necessary in respect of some of  'Niikyap's evidence. The words  that I use are not always  easy to understand  for him and so he has indicated that  he would like to be able to ask  for clarification and  it's for that reason  I've asked Mr. Michell to be here.  Again, I believe you have no objection to that?  MR. PLANT: That's correct.  One other preliminary and that is, as this Commission  is being taken without  a judge present I'm going to  reserve the right to object to questions to a later date,  in the event there are any questions that are objectionable. That should  facilitate the conduct of your  examination.  MR. RUSH: All right. I think we can get underway now that  lawyers have done some of the early talking.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH:  Q Your name is David Gunanoot?  A That's right.  Q Your Gitksan name is 'Niikyap?  A Yes.  Q When were you born?  A Kispiox Valley.  Q You were born in the Kispiox Valley? 1-3  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   Yes.  Q   How old are you?  A   Seventy-seven.  Q   You were born on June 2nd, 1907?  A   Yes.  Q   What is your wilp?  Your wilp?  Your house?  What is  your house?  A   That was Tsimganootsenex.  Q   Is that the House of 'Niikyap?  A   That's right.  Q   Is that the same?  A  That's right, that's the house.  Q  Are you the simooget from the House of 'Niikyap?  A  Yes, head man.  Q   That's the head man?  A  Yes.  Q  What is your p'tekt? Your clan?  A  Can't hear very much.  Q  Again?  A  Wolf.  Q   In Gitksan that's Lax Gibuu?  A  Yes, that's what it was, Lax Gibuu.  Q   The meaning of your name 'Niikyap    A  That's right.  Q     what does that mean in English?  A   'Niikyap?  Q   Yes, what does it mean in English?  A  That's ten in a bunch.  Q   Ten in a bunch.  Can you tell us how your name came  to be the meaning ten in a bunch?  A  You know that, my old grandfather  was looking for some  kind of sign and he say, there is like frogs, floating  logs like that one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,  eight, nine, ten and there's another one, another ten.  Well, that is 'Niikyap right there.  Q   This is ten frogs on a log?  A  Yes. Happen to be like that.  Q   Can you tell us what your mother's name was? Your  mother?  A  My mother?  You mean for the -- in our language?  Q   Your natural mother, yes.  Her name was Sarah, wasn't it?  A  Sarah, yes.  Q  Was she Sara Gunanoot?  A  Sara Gunanoot.  Q  What was her Gitksan name?  A  She had two names, that was 'Niit'amlaxwak.  Q   'Niit'amlaxwak? 1-4  GUNANOOT,  In Chief  Rush  Yes,  D.  Mr  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  and Gamgageex, That's the two.  Your father was Simon Gunanoot?  That's right.  What was his Gitksan name?  I think he Was Gamanuut.  That's a kid's name.  A kid's name?  Yes.  What was your father's adult name?  Takes time to remember.  You can take your time.  Do you want to try to come  again?  Try to remember it?  can't get it in my head. Chief name is  chief's name. That's the same out of  Simon, was a chief?  your grandfather's name on your father's  Lax Gibuu?  you say  father's  again?  name?  back to that  Yes. I still  Geel for his  Kispiox now.  Your father,  That's right.  Now, what was  side?  You mean on the  Yes.  That's — what do  What was Simon's  Simon's father?  Simon's father.  That was Xskiigimlaxha.  Xskiigimlaxha?  Yes.  What Was Xskiigimlaxha,s English  That Was Charlie, I think.  Charlie?  Yes, Charlie Nagun.  Was Charlie Nagun related to Daniel  That's right.  They were brothers, weren't they?  That's right, they were brothers,  that. Xskiigimlaxha first, after  take it. Take that name.  How many brothers and sisters did  Who?  You. How many brothers  Seven boys.  Seven boys?  Yes.  What were their names,  Fred and me. and Alex.  Philip. And the boy. That's okay.  What were the sisters names?  name, do you know?  Skawil?  He's the one taking  he died his brother  you have?  and sisters did you have?  do you remember?  and Charlie, and Simon. And  Only two sisters. 1-5  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   Kathleen.  Q   Kathleen?  A   Yes.  Q   And who else?  A   Matilda. How many boys have you got there?  Q   You have got six boys?  A   Six? There's one more. One died.  Q    One died?  A   Yes, while a little boy.  Q   One died as a child?  A   Yes.  Q   How many of your brothers and sisters are living today?  A   There's only me and Simon.  Q   Now, you told us that you were born in the Kispiox  Valley?  A   That's right. About three or four mile the other side  of Kispiox Valley.  Q   It was three or four miles on the other side of Kispiox  Valley. Can you tell me as a little boy where did you  grow up? Where did you spend most of your life as a  small child?  A   We all go around with my dad. Young kids. Up the head  of the Skeena.  Up to the head of Telegraph Creek, all  over around there.  Q   Up to the head of the Skeena and up to the head of  Telegraph Creek is what you said?  A   Yes and that -- what it called now?  There's another,  McConnell, river goes down to Liard.  Q    Down to Liard?  A   Yes. Property there.  Q   David, where did you live when you travelled to all these  places with your father?  What did you live in?  A   What?  Q   What did you live in?  A   Live?  Q   Yes.  How did you live?  A   Just depending on my weight.  Q   Let me ask  you again.  Did you live in a tent?  A   OH yes.  Q   Can you tell us how big this tent was?  A   Fourteen by ten.  Q    Did you    A   And the stove is, one about, what you call now, about  three foot, is it? Yes, about three foot, B.C. heater  they used to call that.  Q   A.B.C. heater?  A   Yes, they used to call that. 1-6  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  Can you tell us, did you live in a camp?  A  Camp?  Q  Was your tent in a camp with other people, or with just  your father and the family?  A  Just the family.  Somebody stuck outside sometimes.  Q  Who was in the camp with you?  Simon was there, and your  brothers and sisters?  A  Quite a few of them.  Q  Who else was there?  A  Around, lot of people around that Telegraph Creek.  There's only one man that I know that was at that place  came from Liard, and that was Charlie Handel.  Q   Charlie Handel?  A  Yes.  Q  Now, what did your father do when you were in the camp?  A  How did he provide for the family?  A  He always travels every day, any old place.  You mean  what we live on?  Q  Yes, what did you eat?  A  What did we eat? Oh gees.  Live on the money we got out  on the -- out on the trap route, any old place.  Get a  big bundle sometimes.  They pick up those people around,  send them down to any town.  Any town got all the  groceries they want, even their rum.  Even one man travelling, six killed in a row at the camp.  Q  Was that Hudson  Bay rum?  A  Yes.  It's easiest for them I think to carry.  Q   Did your father  hunt on the trapline?  A  Oh yes.  Q  He trapped as well, did he?  A  Yes.  Q  What animals did he trap and hunt?  A  Gees,  don't know. Beavers, any kind.  Fox.  Marten.  Fisher.  Wolverine.  Wolf.  Mink.  I got marten?  Q   Got the marten, yes.  A  Weasel.  Q  Weasel?  A  Don't  bother with that. Don't bother those Squirrels.  Q   You didn't bother with the Squirrels?  A  Yes. They don't buy squirrel.  There's muskrat.  We used  to try those muskrat skin, the kids.  Q   Did Simon hunt up as far as the Stikine?  A  Oh yes.  Q   Did he go that far?  A  Yes.  Travel all over for 13 years.  Q   Thirteen  years?  A  Yes. 1-7  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   Did you spend 13 years of your life with him? Travelling?  A  Yes.  Q   Did Simon take the whole family with him when he travelled?  A  That's right.  Winter time got two sled.  Two dog teams.  Q   Two dog teams?  A  Yes. That's easy for us to ride around.  Q  Now, did you learn to hunt and trap yourself when you  were there with your father?  A  Yes, that's the main thing.  I should go, go round with  him sometimes and watch how he sets the traps, I do that  too.  Q  Now, what was your father's house?  A  House?  Q   Yes.  A  That was Whale.  Q  What's the Gitksan name for that?  A   'Neexhl.  Q   'Neexhl'?  A  Yes.  Q   Does that mean -- What kind Of Whale is that?  A   I think I know that killer Whale, I think.  Q  A killer whale?  A  Yes. Those other kind, they don't use it. It's only  the killer whale.  Q  what was your father's clan or p'tekt?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  Whale, that is whale. That p'tekt is whale.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Your mother, She was Lax Gibuu?  A  That's right.  Q  What was your father?  A  That's Giskaast.  Q  That means Fireweed, does it?  A  Yes.  Q  After you spent 13 years with your father travelling in  the bush, where did you live after that?  A  After I grown up I was living around Stewart, or ....  Q  Before you moved to Stewart where did you live?  A  Kisgagas.  Q  Kisgagas?  A  Yes.  Q   How long did you live there?  A  Quitea long time.  Back and forth.  Bear Lake.  Trapping  in the winter time. 1-8  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  Did you ever live close to Glen Vowell?  A  That's where I live, right across where the little ranch  is now across at Glen Vowell.  Q  What's the place caLled that's the little ranch across  from Glen Vowell?  What is that?  A  Anlaw.  Q  Anlaw. How long did you live at Anlaw?  A   I don't know, sometimes I left there.  It was around while  I was still packing, packing for George Burns. That's  what I usually do summer time, packing.  Q  What did you do in the winter time when you lived there?  A  Trapping.  Q  When did you move to Stewart?  A  Twenty ... 1923.  Q  When you lived in Stewart did you continue to trap?  A  That's right.  Q  Where did you trap there?  A   I have been trapping around to that Bowswer Lake with  my grandpa, Daniel Skawil.  Trapping there until -- it  is likely trapping so he put me -- give me to the game  warden. But the game warden get mad at him too, holding  too much of the land, and I've got no place to keep all  my traps up there. So the game warden, his name was Martin  but that's all I know is Martin. He's the one that train  on me and he told me there's the land, there's the  trapping ground up there is cancelled by William Scott.  You got a good chance to get it now and move your traps  up there and you won't bother the old man.  I think it changed altogether and got all my traps  off and move up to that little place, I didn't bother  anything but the old man trying to get me back again.  I've got my own land, I shouldn't bother you.  He's  getting too old and he invite me again to trap on his  land, on his traplines, beaver trapping. Short time,  I got so many about 82, 82 beavers one spring.  That's  worth about 800 apiece split up.  Q   How much?  A  Eight hundred.  Q   Eight hundred?  A  Apiece.  Q   $800.00 apiece?  A  Yes, and We split up what I got, because  I was sorry about  the old man trying to trap.  Q  Let me just ask you about this, David. You said you  trapped around Bowser Lake?  A  Yes.  Q  When you moved over to Stewart? -9  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Yes.  Q  Can you tell us some of the places there that you trapped  around at Bowser Lake? What were some of the creeks where  you trapped and some of the valleys?  Creeks?  Q   Yes.  Can you tell us some of those names?  A  Yes, I can tell all right. Started at Meziaden, Hannah  Creek.  Q   Hannah Creek?  A  Yes.  Passed the head of Hannah Creek is Cotton wood.  Q   Cotton wood?  A  Cotton wood, yes. They got the name, Stikine name on  that creek.  Q  There are Stikine names for the same creeks, are there?  A  Yes. tell, they're still around there.  Q   Yes.  A  As you drive you go down to    Q   Down to where?  A  Bell Irving River.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   You Said Bell Irving, did you?  A  Yes.  Q   I See.  A   I seen the man up to Stewart.  Q   You met him, did you?  A  Yes, me and Ian McLeod haying  a good supper. Quite a  few people at that time. Really want you to come to the  table at that time.  Q  Are there other creeks that you remember or other valleys  that  YOU remember about where you trapped?  A   I can start at that Bell Irving and I can tell that --  what they call it -- what they call it?  Spruce Creek.  Q   Spruce  Creek after Bell Irving?  A  Yes.  Q  Does Spruce Creek have a Gitksan name?  A  That Was Naskiit.  Q  Naskiit?  Will you say it again for us?  A  Naskiit.   Bell Irving right here and it comes out of  there.  That's why they called it Naskiit, kind of cross-  way.  Q  What came after Naskiit?  A  After Naskiit that was -- that was -- I forgot what they  call it -- Xsaluustalo'obit.  Q  Xsaluustalo'obit? 1-10  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Xsaluulstalo'obit.  Q   Do you remember any other rivers or mountains in that  area?  A  Another one was -- another creek above that, which they  call it, Xsa ansalagamt.  They say that's where they  got those flint.  Q  That's where they get flint?  A  Yes. That is what it means, Xsa ansalagamt.  Q  Will you say the Gitksan word again for us so we can get  it clearly?  A  Xsa ansalagamt.  Q  Xsa ansalagamt, that means where they get flint?  A  yes.  Q  Are there any mountains in that area where you trapped  that you remember? any mountains or other creeks?  A  I forget what they call that, bigger creek, this is  Wiluut'ahlts'imilix.  Q  Wiluut'ahlts'imilix, what does that mean in English?  A  That was, in English, got different names for English.  I forget again. Don't you remember?  Q   you try to remember your best now and    A  Taft Creek.  Q   Taft Creek?  A  Yes.  and the next One is Luumahaawit.  Q   Luumahaawit?  A  Yes.  Q   Does that have an English name?  A  That was -- gee, I forgot now.  Q  Okay.  A  That's the creek for those porcupine.  Q  A creek for the porcupine?  A  Yes.  Q  Now, do you remember any other creeks?  A  That's Skawil's.  Q   That was Skawil's Creek?  A  Yes.  LittLe Skawil. The other name for that for us, I  forgot, that was Little Awiijii, that's what I should  say.  Q  Little Awiijii.  I may not have understood, is Little  Skawil Creek the same as Little awiijii?  A  Yes, that's right. The next one is Big awiijii Creek.  The mountains around there, the Awiijii mountains.  The  first, last creek you came from Bowser Mountain, that  was Hodder Creek.  Q   Otter Creek?  A  Yes.  A  That's the last One, is it?  A  Yes. 1-11  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  By MR. RUSH:  Q   Do you mean Hodder Creek?  A  Yes.  The band made a mistake in registering the ground  and the old man knows about that, and he get after the  game warden about it, and he took that creek back from  the game warden again. The same as the lake there, we  used to call that Rowan Lake, that,s what they use it  now for, ski-ing on the water.  We used to go that far  for some kind of a trip too in the summer time.  Q Now, David, are these creeks that you've mentioned to  US today, are these the places that Daniel Skawil and  you trapped?  A  No, that was on the right side going up where those creeks  come from.  Q  Who trapped there?  A  That's all belongs to Skawil.  Q   I see, those are SKawil's creeks, are they?  A  Yes.  Q  Now, did you trap in any of those creeks too?  A  A little beyond there I can do it but I got my own.  Q  You had to get permission to go on and trap there?  A  Yes.  Just open it up sometimes and of course I'm very  good.  Q Now, did you have a dispute with Skawil about trapping?  Did you have -- did you sometimes have differences with  the old man about trapping?  A  No.  Q  No?  A  He always tried to get me back after he put me in trouble  Q  Why did he put you in trouble?  A  Because I was trapping un his trapline.  Q   He thought you were trapping on his trapline?  A  Yes. But Martin turns around and he gave 'me that land  to trap and he can't even do it. The old man tried to  get me back home again.  after I gave him about $800.00  cash when I got into town, and take 800 myself.  Q Now, this other trapline that you got, you said I think  that that belonged to Mr. William Scott?  A  Yes, that's right. That's the one I got now.  Q   That's right.  And that's what you got in the 1920's,  was it?  A  Yes -- oh no, that was -- about '31 I think.  Q  Now, what side was this Scott trapline?  Where was that?  A  What's that?  Q  Was the trapline that you got from William Scott, was 1-12  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  that close to Skawil,s trapline?  A  Right across, on the other side.  Q   The Other side Of What?  A  Across the river.  Q  Which river?  A  Right across.  Right across Skawil's Creek.  Q   I see, right across from Skawil's Creek.  A  Yes, right, the other side.  Q   Right across from Skawil*s Creek.  MR. PLANT: Right across from Skawil's Creek or right across  Skawil's Creek?  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   I think you said that William Scott's trapline is across  Skawil's Creek?  A  That's right, yes.  Q  No? Or yes?  A  That's right.  It was right there.  Righ across.  It run  out there, goes into Bell Irving.  There's the post right  across out of that Awiijii Creek.  Q   Yes.  A  And going across to climb up the mountain there and goes  into that, that's William Scott's trapline.  Q  David, can you tell us some of the creeks in William  Scott's trapline? Now your trapline?  What are some of  the creeks there?  A  Not many that I know have names but I should.  Just the  main valley there, that was -- I forget what you call  that.  Q  Main valley there.  Okay.  A  after -- after -- what is that little lake?  Little lake  was -- that was Gilbert Lake.  Thinking all the time!  Q   You have an amazing memory.  A  There s another creek from Bowser, that was going, called  Xsilaxamaawxs, called big meadow.  Q  Xsilaxamaawxs.  A  Yes, Xsilaxamaawxs, big meadow. Ahead of that, that was  -- there s another lake there too.  It was called Trout  Lake.  Q   Trout Lake?  A  Yes.  And Up through above that Gilbert Lake is one  creek come down, come out of there that was called --  I think was called    Q  Again?  A  North Fork.  Q  North Fork?  A  Yes.  That's right straight up until you hit the -- until 1-13  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  you hit the creek going down to Unuk.  Q  Where does it go to?  A  Ahead of that main creek, ahead of that.  Q  Ahead ot that main Creek, yes?  A  Go down On the Other side, that is the One that goes down  to Unuk River.  Q  Does that have a Gitksan name?  Or does it have a Stikine  name?  A  Stikine area.  Q   Did you ever go up there in a helicopter, David? Did  you ever fly up there?  A  No.  Takes the plane up to that Gilbert Lake.  Q  What kind of plane did you go up in?  A  Pardon?  Q  What Was the plane?  A  They used to call that Stranair.  Q  What Was that again?  A  Stranair.  Q   Stranair?  A  Yes.  Used to call it flying boats sometimes.  Carried  two ton of groceries.  Q   It was the kind of plane that carried two ton of groceries  A  Yes.  That was long time ago that I was wrecked up after  it was being up to Gilbert Lake.  I hired one of them  and the other bunch with me another, another one ton they  got,  the other one, with a bunch of dogs. And a few of  US on it too. Me and that crippled boy being on the first  one, unloading the plan.  Q  David,  did you ever fly up there with Neil?  A  Neil?  Q  Neil  Sterritt?  A  Cross.  Q  Pardon me, again?  A  across  that.  Behind that Skawil's Creek.  That's the  place where we went.  Q   You  went up there with Neil?  A  Yes.  Q  Where  did you go to, again?  A  We  go up to the head of the Skeena and follow the mountain  right  down there and go back to Kispiox Valley, after  we passed that Wilskahlk'uu'1,  they used to call.  Q  And  then    A  That's  the time we get back to Kispiox Valley again and  we   stop at that -- some kind of a -- some kind of shed  for the helicopters.  Cars. Cars go too.  Q  You stopped at a shed where    A  Shed 1-14  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  David, we're just having a little trouble understanding  you. Can you tell us once again where you stopped in  the Kispiox Valley?  A  I don t know what they call that.  I don t know what they  call it but I know helicopter used to stop there.  Q  Okay.  A And even a car goes up there too. That.s the end of the  road too.  Q  So the helicopter stopped there?  A  Yes.  Q  And it Was at the end Of the road, Was it?  A  Yes.  Q  Now, When you and Neil were in the helicopter did you  show Neil anything?  Did you show him things?  A  If he asked me.  Q   Yes.  A   I told him.  Q  What did you tell him about when you were flying in the  helicopter?  A Just like I said about that Wilskahlk'uu'1 and up to the  head of that Skawil,s Creek. I told him that, everything  what we were doing.  Q   You told him everything that you were doing?  A  Yes, when he asked me what you do.  Q   Did you tell him about -- sorry?  A about that creek comes down from the other side of the  mountain behind Awiijii, well, I got nothing to do for  those lines so I didn't go there so I don't know them.  Q  Did you tell him about the creeks that you did know about?  A  Oh yes. Yes, I told him Which creek it was.  Q  Did you mention some of the creeks you told us about today?  A  Yes, that's right.  Q  Now, David, We've talked about the trapping that you did  in the area up around Bowser Lake and Bell Irving; what  did you do in the summer time?  A  Summer time?  Q  When you lived in Stewart?  A  Working underground.  Q  Where did you work underground?  A  Premier Nine.  Q  What did they mine at Premier Mine?  A  Any kind of ore.  There's quite a bit.  Q  Did they have copper there?  A  Oh yes, plenty copper. That's why they let me go. They  was going to pick me up as going to the front during the  war, but they let me go on account of I was working underground and trapping in the winter time because they need 1-15  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  furs and quilts for the boys overseas, so they just let  me go,  Go back and trap.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  THE WITNESS: When you come in go underground, get some more  copper for the shells.  MR. RUSH: Just pause there.  Did you get all that?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  What kind Of Underground mining did you do? What did  you do underground?  A  Underground?  There's little, sometimes we travel in those  little push cars. Sometimes we run those little motor.  Fill up the cars and dump it at the dump outside.  That's  what we used to do.  Q   You were    A  Sometimes, it ail depend, sometimes we do the bulldozing  for the rest of the boys who don t know how to do it  underground.  Q   Did you do any drilling?  A  No.  I did that up to -- what they call that?  Grand Duke.  Q   You did drilling at Grand Duke?  A  Yes, diamond drilling.  I did a little around at Premier  but we finished, me and my partner.  Q  You took the muck out, did you?  A  Oh Yes, muck out.  That's how I hurt my finger ....  Q   You're showing me a finger    A  Yes.  Q     that looks like it's been cut a bit?  A  Yes.  Q   David, how long did you work at Premier?  A  I can't tell you that, I forget.  Q  Okay.  A  Was about -- I would say about five years, I think.  Q  Okay, about five years.  A  Not years, just the summer time.  Q  Oh yes, just the summer, I understand that.  A  Yes.  Q  And you trapped in the winter?  A  Yes.  Q  Okay.  A  Sometimes we went over to Alaska. We worked there underground too again.  What they call Riverside Mine,  tungsten. 1-16  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   Was that    A   I asked him what is good for, white rocks, and they showed  me with the light as bright as that.  Q   You could see the tungsten ore, could you?  A   Yes.  That's tungsten, hardened steel.  Q    Tungsten hardened steel. David, can you tell us how long  did you live in Stewart? Are you still living there?  A   I still got my place up there.  Q   You have a place here in Hazelton too, do you?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, I just wanted to get one more Gitksan name from you,  if I can. I want to ask you a little bit more about the  trappping you did around Bowser Lake; did you trap by  a lake called Beaver Lake or Beaver Creek?  Was there  a Beaver Creek there?  A  Oh yes, that's that -- I forgot again.  Q  Were you going to tell me the Gitksan name for Beaver  Creek?  A  Wiluut'ahlts'imilix.  Q  Wiluut'ahlts'imilix?  A  Yes.  Q  Now, let me ask you, when you trapped up there, around  Bowser Lake and the creeks you mentioned, what were the  animals that you trapped for?  What kind of animals?  A  All those creeks?  Q  Yes, what were those animals?  A  Those martens, fisher and any kind, I think. Just at  Beaver Creek.  Once in a while there's some beaver one  of the creeks.  Q  Now, did you hunt up there too? Did you hunt? Did you  shoot animals?  A  During the Winter time?  Q   yes.  A   I shoot some moose during the winter time.  Q   Did you shoot anything else?  A  Usually,  once in a while there's deer around there. Kill  them  for hides for snow shoes.  Call them babiche.  Q   Babiche?  A  Yes.  Q  What's that?  A  That's what they using for snow shoes.  Q   I see, that's what you use for snow shoes?  A  Yes.  And the heavy one was ....  Q  What was the heavy one again?  A   Filling.  Q   The  fill-in?  A  Yes. 1-17  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  David, did you ever shoot a grizzly up there?  A  Oh yes, plenty.  Q  Was there a Gitksan name for the trapping territory?  Did you have a Gitksan name for the territory up there?  A  Which one?  Q  Well, was there a Gitksan name for Skawil's territory?  A  Skawil and    Q  What did you    A   It's differentnow anyway.  Q  What did you call it then?  A  Call?  Q  What Was the Gitksan name for Skawil's trapping territory?  A  Now?  You mean now? Johnny Wilson take over after  Skawil now. I forget.  Q   Johnny Wilson's looking after it now?  A  Yes.  Q  What Was the name for the territory in Gitksan? Was there  a Gitksan name for it?  A   It's Awiijii all over.  MR. PLANT:  I didn't catch that?  MR. RUSH: He called it Awiijii.  MR. PLANT: Okay.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   David, was there any special kind of bait that you used  when you trapped?  A   Yes.  Q   What did you use to trap sometimes?  A   Beaver Caster.  Q    The beaver Caster?  A   Yes, and those little old bugs.  Q   What Other kind Of bait did you use? What worked really  well?  A   What did I tell you, and that high powerful rum.  Q    Sometimes    A   Happy, eh?  I used to say I'd be a beaver myself!  MR. PLANT: Exactly.  Turn yourself in at the Hudson's Bay!  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   I want to ask you about how you got your name 'Niikyap  and   A   How did I got my name?  Q   Yes. Can you tell me who held the name 'Niikyap before  you did? 1-18  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Used to be my grandmother used to be 'Niikyap,  Q  What was her name?  A  She's the Oldest One that Was Sarah.  There s a lot of  Sarahs in the family.  They must have liked this name.  Q  Who held the name Of 'Niikyap after your grandmother Sarah  A  That's was my mother.  Q  What Was her name?  Her name was Sarah too, wasn't it?  A  Yes.  Q  Do you know who held the name of 'Niikyap before your  grandmother?  A  My grandmother, that's a man -- I forgot his -- gee, I  don' t know. That's a little too much for me now.  Q  Okay.  A  Too many years, can't go back that far.  Q  Okay.  Can you remember anybody else who held the name  of 'Niikyap? Was there anybody else?  A  The Older One Up to Kispiox but he done wrong, that's  how my mother take that name right back at the same time.  Q  Who Was that?  A  His name was Moses, his name.  He called himself  'Niikyap  but he done wrong.  He got headstone where he got his  name right on it.  Not that way, not supposed to be made  like that.  Q   It's not supposed to be done that way?  A   (Nodding)  Q  Now, did Moses hold the name before your mother, Sarah?  A  Yes.  They used it around for a few years but my mother  move it down from Kisgagas and put up a feast again and  take the name right back.  Q  That's how she got the name back, is it?  A  Yes.  Q  And then, was the name put on you?  A  That's after my mother died.  Q   Yes.  A  Yes.  Q  Can you tell us what year it was that your mother died?  A  Gee, I forget now.  I forgot about that.  Q   Can you remember when you got your name? What the year  of the feast was?  A  That's what I mean, I can't remember.  I haven't got the  book on it.  Q  Now, when you had the feast where you took the name  'Niikyap, who put the blanket on you?  A  That was Walter Harris.  Q  What was Walter's Gitksan name?  A  Now?  Q   Yes. 1-19  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  That was, they taking my father's chief name, Geel.  Q   Geel?  A  Yes.  Q  He put the blanket on you, did he?  A  Yes. His auntie died a long time ago, Selena Johnson.  Q   Selena Johnson was Walter Harris  auntie?  A  Yes, two of them.  Q  Now, Walter Harris was from your father's side of the  family, was he?  A  Yes. That's right, yes.  Q  Now, the blanket that you've talked about, do you still  have this blanket?  A  Yes.  It's in the museum up there.  Q   This is at the 'Ksan Museum, is it?  A  Yes.  Q  Do you keep it there for safe-keeping?  A  Yes, for safe-keeping.  Q   Can you tell me, are there any designs?  Is there anything  on the blanket?  A  That's right, yes.  Q  What's on the blanket, David?  A  What they call it? That's Ganootsenex they call it.  Q  What do they call it?  A  Ganootsenex.  The lake was there and there were stars.  Those people who is looking for to fight against sitting  there's Ganootsenex, something going like that, and it  was a shadow of a tree behind them. This is what they  seen.  Q  It was a shadow on the lake, that moved in the lake?  A  Yes.  That's why 'Niikyap telling, that's what they call  -- that's what they call Ganootsenex.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  David, is this a button blanket?  A  Yes.  Q   It is?  A  Yes.  Q  Okay. . And one of the images on the button blanket is  the one about the shadow on the lake?  A  Yes.  Q   Is there anything else on the blanket?  A  Those shoulders.  Q   The shoulder?  A  No head but it looks like a man. That's why they call  it by the shoulder. 1-20  GUNANOOT,  In  Chief  Mr.  . Rush  Q  Now,  D.  the feast where you had the name placed on you, was  there a special song sung at the feast?  A  That's what I can't even  -- can't even get. Somebody  can when I use it. That's only one man there and one  woman too to sing that song.  Q  Who can sing that song?  A   I believe that was Mary, I think.  Q   Is that Mary Johnson?  A  Mary Johnson, yes.  Q   Does the name -- what's the name of the song?  A  That is the name of the song, that was 'Wiiganasiigya'.  That's another hard one.  Q  Can you say it again for us?  A   'Wiiganasiigya'.  That's the end of the song. When that  winds up.  Q   Is this 'Niikyap s song?  A  Yes, that's right.  Q  Now, you know a little bit about this song, don't you?  A  Yes.  Q  Could you tell us what you know?  A   I didn't even know how it is. All I know is .... (singing)  jump too.  That's the end.  Q   That's the end part?  A  Yes.  Q  Mary Johnson has sung this song, has she not?  A  Yes.  Q  Now, at the feast where you got the name of 'Niikyap was  there money and groceries given to the witnesses?  A  Oh yes, plenty.  Q  Can you tell us what you gave?  What did you give at the  feast?  A  At the feast?  Q   Yes.  A  Oh, about a ton of groceries. Moneys.  Q  What kind Of groceries did you give?  A  Especially bread.  Biscuits.  Q  Bread and biscuits?  A  Yes. Everybody got something to eat. Fill up with the  bread and some kind of apple, orange.  Q  apple and orange?  A  Things like that.  Given for that.  Q  Now, did you give moneyaway too?  A  Oh yes.  Q  Who helped you at this feast?  A  at the feast?  Q  at the feast. Were there members of your    A  Any of them around town. Close to my relations.  It's  them. 1-21  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   Your relations helped you?  A  Yes.  Q  What clan were they from? Your relations, were they from  the Lax Gibuu?  A  Yes, that's what I mean. That's them helping me.  Q  Okay.  A  That's them cooking the soup and some coffee, tea.  Q  Now, When 'Niikyap has a feast, can you tell us who sits  at the table with 'Niikyap?  A  Who sit?  Q  Who are the Other simooget, the chiefs, that sit at the  table with Niikyap?  A  You mean when we invited to be at the feast?  Q  When your house holds a feast, who's at your table with  you?  A   I,m not sitting at the table myself, visiting around.  Q  When you're invited then?  A  When we're invited, me and 'Wiik'aax.  Q  Where does 'Wiik'aax sit? Does he sit to your left or  to your right?  A  Table like that, got to be big long table, it's different  now.  We paint it red on account there's too many mixed  up for the rest of the people from, so I talked about  it.  I've got to be sitting right here and 'Wiik'aax will  be at the box on that end.  I got my man into my house to be sitting on my right  side, right here, and 'Wiik'aax s man got to come from  there, from the right side to come this way too.  Q  Okay.  A  They can't mixed up anymore.  Q  Who sits On 'Niikyap's right?  Who sits close to 'Niikyap  on his right?  A  That was Muut.  Q   That is Muut?  A  Yes.  Q  Who sits beside Muut?  A  That was Haimadimtxw.  Q  Who sits beside Haimadimtxw?  A    'Wiinaagets. Big wolverine.  Q    'Wiinaagets?  A  Yes.  Big wolverine,  'Wiinaagets.  Q  Who sits beside 'Wiinaagets?  A  Thats O'yee.  Q  Who sits beside O'yee?  A  That Was XStuutxumlaxha.  Q   and Who sits beside XStUutxumlaxha?  A  Well, it's different now.  That was -- I got Haimadimtxw? 1-22  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   Yes, you spoke of Haimadimtxw.  A   Forget now.  Ganootsenex.  Q    Ganootsenex?  A   Yes.  Q   Mow today, David, who presently holds the name of  'Wiinaagets?  Big wolverine, who holds that name today?  A   Jerry.  Q    Jerry?  A   Gunanoot.  Q   Who holds the O'yee?  A   O'yee, that was Joshua McLean.  Q   And the name of Xstuutxumlaxha?  A   Xstuutxumlaxha, that was -- that was -- I gave it to --  I put it on that Georgie -- oh, I forget that now.  Q   His first name was George?  A   Yes, Georgie.  Can't remember.  Q   Okay.  A   Skeena Crossing Georgie -- no, I can.t remember.  Q   Who holds the name of Haimadimtxw?  A   That was Abel Sampson.  Q   Abel simpson?  A   Yes.  Q   Clifford Sanpere, is he simooget?  A   Who?  Q    Clifford Sanpere?  A   That was not really simooget.  That's coming.  He can  get the simooget name after that.  Q   He doesn't have the simooget name yet?  A   Yes.  Q   But he will get one?  A   Yes. Prince.  Like a prince.  Q   He.s like a prince?  A   Just like a prince.  That's what I was talking about,  Georgie, Georgie Sanpere, that was ....  Q    Georgie Sanpere?  A   Yes, the young, not the old one. The old one, the father  of them was down here.  Q   What was Georgie Sanpere.s name again for us?  A   Xstuutxumlaxha.  MR. RUSH:  We,11 take a break now, David. We've  been going for  an hour and a hour.  SHORT RECESS 1-23  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Now, David, we'll just start again with a few more  questions.  You told us about your blanket?  A   My blanket?  Q   Yes. Do you have any other regalia that goes with the  blanket?  A   What they call that?  Q   Is that like a sash?  A   Yes.  Q   A Cloth that COmes across your chest?  A   Yes.  Q   Is there anything else that you have?  A   Little cap.  Q   A little cap?  A   Yes.  Q   Anything else?  A   Apron.  Q   Apron?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you have anything like leggings or moccasins?  A   I used to but somebody stole those leggings.  Q   What did they used to be called?  What was the Gitksan  name for them?  A   T'imhlaam.  Q    T'imhlaam?  A   Yes.  Q   Where is your sash and your little cap today?  Pardon?  Q   Where s your cap kept?  A   Out with the blanket.  Q   At the museum?  A   Yes.  Q   CAn you use your cap and blanket any time you want to?  A   Ah yes, but I don't know who keep the key for that. It's  all locked up in a glass.  Q   But When you want it, you can go down and get it, can  you?  A   Oh yes, but I didn't even worry anything about it. Maybe '  Polly keep the key.  Maybe. Polly Sargent.  I should  go down there and find it out.  I might use it at some  other times too.  Q   Now, David, who spoke at your feast when you got the name  'Niikyap?  A   Which one?  Q   Who Spoke at your feast? You told us that Mary Johnson  or Walter Harris put the name on you? The blanket on  you? 1-24  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   That's Walter and his auntie.  Q   Was that Selena?  Yes.  Q   Did anyone else speak at your feast?  A   Pardon?  Q   Did anyone else speak at your feast?  Who spoke at your  feast?  A   Mary McKenzie I think.  Talking for everything what I'm  doing.  She always stands around when I say something.  She's the one who speaks.  I used to speak a long time  ago but something wrong with my -- short-winded.  Q   I see.  A   Can't Stand. My legs comes to shaky when I standing up.  Q   I see.  A   So I didn't speak no more. Used to speak all the time  when the feast was on.  Q   Now, I want to ask you about 'Niikyap's territory?  A   Territory?  Q   Yes.  Where is 'Niikyap's territory located?  A   It's kind of far, ten mile on the other side of Kisgagas.  Q   The Other side of Kisgagas?  A   Yes.  Q   What's it Called?  A   Canyon Creek.  Q    Can you tell me, is there an Indian name or a Gitksan  name for Canyon Creek?  A   Canyon Creek, that is Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt.  Q   Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt?  A   Yes, Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt.  Q    Is that on the Babine River?  Does that join the Babine  River?  A   Yes, left side going up.  Q   How far down the river -- or going up the river is  'Niikyap's territory?  A   Right about the creek which is Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt.  Q   As you go along the Babine River how far does 'Niikyap's  territory go?  A   Gee, I don't know that. Quite a way up.  Q    Can you tell me how many miles?  A   Yes, right on top of the -- it's right at the -- some  kind of timber line, right on top, goes down to what they  call Xsimihlmihl,  the little creek goes down that way.  Q   What is that little creek called again?  A   Xsimihlmihl.  I don't think it is too small but it's the  timber, xsimihlmihl.  That's why they call it  Xsimihlmihl, that little creek.  Q   Do you know an area that is called the big slide area? 1-25  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Big slide?  Q   Yes.  A  That was right across and down below.  Q  Does 'Niikyap's territory go as far as the big slide?  A  That's a little ways above that.  Q  What do they call 'Niikyap's territory? What's the name  for it? In Gitksan?  A  That was what they call it, Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt.  Q   I see.  A  Where that little, you know, cabin place is,  Xsuwilakansamaa, pretty long way.  You know, the beaver  used to get this kind of thing and they bite right around  it.  They eat the bark right off and float it around,  and all those little pieces is willows.  Q  piece of the willow?  A  They already clean the bark off, the eat off and let it  go and they all floated down to the dam, that's Why they  call it Xsuwilakansamaa.  Q  that is how that creek got the name?  A  Yes,  Xsuwilakansamaa.  Q  Now, is there a fishing hole at Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt?  A  Right at the mouth.  Q  At the mouth of -- with the Babine?  A  Yes.  The creek comes out of there and there's a rock  right there, and there's another one, and there's another  one, there's three.  They haven't got no place to fish  around Kisgagas, so the old man 'Niikyap goes up there  and Look for the place where they're going to catch the  fish.  Still keep going and go down the canyon and search  around and still quietly run in the Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt  to get to this creek, and he has got to go down to the  rock.  It is on both sides. When he get out of there  the rock was in front of them there, and he look at those,  look at it, and he see there's three rocks sticking out  of there. So he . . .  Q  What did he do?  A  He got some, scrambled straight down from the rock and  watched, watched between those three rocks, and there's  the fish going right over there. Sitting down, there  you are, that's what I'm looking for, but he didn't go  over.  Short time there goes another one, there goes  another one, just going like that.  Even the second one  they're still going up there too. Well, I've got nothing  to wait about, so he just packed up and go down where  his family is at Kisgagas and with his nephews get some  kind of -- I don t know -- for cutting rocks. Axe, not  knife,  I don't know what they use.  Just keep on until  they get there. 1-26  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  at the Same time, they start building that -- building that trap, fish trap.  The old man didn't even sleep  very much.  He only lay down and sleep a little and get  up again and still quietly finish that trap, moving out  of there. Kick him right out. Here comes the fish.  Fishes coming in like that. No time it's all filled up.  They get some kind place to put the fish, right on it,  dry land. In a short time they all fill up -- fill the  smoking -- smoke houses.  It's all filled up with the  smoked salmon.  Any kind of fish keep on doing that.  Finally, he tried to tell about getting, about two  or three, and his nephew, go down to Kisgagas, don't know  what to do with the fish, there's too many.  YOU  better go down Kisgagas put up -- you better cook those  fish, the pile up the fish. Go down and cook them and  give it,to the whole village and let them eat this fish.  When they through, one of you guys stand up, tell  them why you guys do that.  Tell them anybody wants some  fish to smoke, to just put his hand up, that means he s  going up. He will be coming up here.  anybody do that  again, so many of them who put up their hand get to go  up there, dry the fish, and eat the fish. We can't use  that much fish.  So they did that too.  Those guys from Kisgagas, they moving up there,  stay up there, smoking fish doing all those things.  That  what they did. They got casters, fish in the winter time,  in the ground.  In the ground where they're catching fish  Just like a root house.  Q  Just like a root house?  A  Just like a root house, that's how they made it, piled  the fish in there. You never see those fish to be mouldy  It stays that way. That's why they do that.  Q   Is it    A  After that time they through fishing, they all go back  to Kisgagas again. Anybody wants some of. those fish  which is in the catch, they go up there for more fish.  It,s time for all those things already.  Everything.  Q   Is the fishing hole at Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt, is that  fishing hole a good fishing hole today?  A  Oh yes but nobody allows fish traps any more. One of  them at Kisgagas but long time ago but only one man now.  He used to put it up.  His name was William Jackson.  He's the one that put it up. Giving the fish run who  has some of them. Get the smoke house let hanging out  and dry the fish.  Fish goes up the thing there and stuck right there  and then back that they landed right in the -- dried up  right in there and there goes the man lifting Out piling 1-27  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  up behind him. They pick up the one of the   the  smoke house to tell them, to tell the boss to pack it  up. The next day there s another one to take over for  that. For that fish trap. They keep on doing until  they're finished, every one of those smoke houses.  Take  it out. Store some place again.  That old man, they only  put it one time and then they quit it.  Q  You say that William Jackson used the fish site?  A  Eh?  Q  William Jackson,  is it?  A  Yes.  Q  He Used the fish site?  A  Yes.  Q   Is he related to you?  A  No.  Q   Is he part of your house?  A  No. Supposed to be -- they call my dad as a nephew.  Q  He's a nephew of your father's?  A  That's right.  That's what he said when he gave thatname  to the -- I forget that name. He gave it to my father  after my father was free from the law.  Axgagoodit.  Q  Axgagoodit?  A  Yes, Axgagoodit .  Q  What does that mean in English?  A  That was anything   Q  What is that again?  A  Anything haven't got the heart.  Q  Without heart?  A  Yes. I don't know what is that.  Q   David, do    A  He give it, this name to my father and the song too, the  song of Axgagoodit.  Q  So William Jackson gave this name to your father?  A  Yes.  Q   I see.  A He was so happy after he got it, my dad was a free man  after was been running for 13 years.  Q   This Was after your father's trial, was it?  A  Eh?  Q This was after your father was freed by the court, was  it?  A  Didn't even do anything by the court.  My dad was going  out there and come back alone again.  Q David, I want to ask you about the trapping territory  by Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt; I want to ask you, is there a  little creek up there called Xsimihlmihl?  A  Xsimihlmihl? 1-28  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  Yes. Where is that little creek?  A  Pardon?  Q  Where is Xsimihlmihl?  Where is that?  A  That's with 'Niikyap's land, right there, and there's  the little creek goes down there.  That is Xsimihlmihl  right there, and that's right there above that, is  nothing but dry timbers growing there.  Old timber, that's  why they call that Xsimihlmihl.  Q  Who Used that trapline?  A  I still keep it.  Q   Did somebody trap on it though?  A  No.  Q   You know Joshua McLean?  A  Oh, he was out trying it but they can't even find that  canyon, Canyon Creek, but I heard that Robert Jackson  build a cabin up above there. I don't know.  Q  Was Joshua McLean -- did he use the territory?  A  My mother gave those families another land belongs to  'Wiinaagets but I didn't even get there. I don't know,  to a lady, I think. Too much wine.  Q  Can you tell me who's gone out and used 'Niikyap's  territory?  A  Never was up there for a long time yet.  Q  Who else has been up there?  A  The old man Jackson has been around there but it's called  out when I get that name. Take over for 'Niikyap. Got  no way to do anything about it.  Just gone .... same as  get some kind of will or sign about that because I was  the one spending the big money when I get the 'Niikyap's  name.  Q   Let me ask you now about your wilksiwitxw, your   father's  family?  A  That was wilksiwitxw, well I came from    Q  Where?  Where did you come from?  A  Yes, what they call it? Wilksiwitxw  'Neexhl,  that's  where I come from.  All the grouse.  Q   Is that the name of your father's side?  A  Yes, that's the song.  Q  Okay.  A  WiLksiwitxw 'Neexhl, yes, I came from there.  Q  Let me ask you, David, your father was Fireweed, was he?  A  Yes, that's where I came from.  Wilksiwitxw Fireweed.  Q  Yes.  That's your father's side of the family, is it?  A  Yes.  Q  Were you close to your father's side of the family?  A  Yes, Simon's father? You mean the family?  Q   Yes. 1-29  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Every one of them knows me up to Kispiox.  Q  Okay.  A  Walter's family.  Wilksiwitxw Nidit, that's where I from.  Q   If your father's family -- if the people from Kispiox  gave a feast . . .  A  Yes.  Q   ... if they had a feast, did you go to the feast?  A  Oh yes. They pick me up.  Q  What Was your responsibility when you went to the feast?  What did you do at the feast on your father's side?  A   Just sitting on my table.  Q   Did  your father's family teach you things?  A  Eh?  Q   Did  your father's family, did they teach you things?  A   I've got to watch my family, what I'm doing on table.  Q   You  were married yourself?  A  Yes.  Q  Who  did you marry?  A  Her  name was Esther.  Q  What Has her last name?  A  Before me?  MR. PLANT:  Yes, before.  BY MR . RUSH:  Q   What Was Esther's last name?  A   Before me?  Q   Yes.  A   That was Esther Mediik.  Q    Do you remember when you got married?  A   Sometime about twenty-two.  I think.  My dad died when  23, that's one year. Yes, I think it was 20 -- what I  mean now?  Gee, I'm lost.  Thirty, I mean, 33 when my  dad died.  Q   Your dad died in 1933?  A   Yes, and I was already married one year. .  Q   Were you married in Hazelton?  A   Yes.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  THE WITNESS:  That was not legally married, that was common-law.  On account of both in love can't be breaking. And I did  too. She still alive she would be still with me now.  but she's dead of cancer, so she died.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   What was her Gitksan name? 1-30  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   Gitksan?  Q   Her Gitksan name?  Her name?  A   Her name? That was Axtitxalgantxw.  Q   What does that mean in English?  A   I don't know what to say.  You know what is like knock  on the door.  Q   Blocking the door?  A   yes, hut I haven't no blocking the door.  Q    So the name    A    It was open.  Q    So the name means    A   Anybody can come in.  Q    So blocking the door    A   Yes.  Q      anybody can come in?  A   Yes.  Q   Was she Giskaast?  A   Eh?  Q   What Clan Was she from?  A   That Was still the fire.  Q    The Fireweed?  A   Yes.  That's my own dad's    Q   What Was her mother's name?  A   Emma.  Emma Mediik.  MR . RUSH: Do you want to just take a moment. Just pause a  second here.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   David, We jUst paused to find out if you were tired?  A   Yes.  Q   I Would Like to go till four o'clock, which is another  half hour, do you think we can go that long?  A    I think so. Thirty minutes.  Q   We'll go until four?  A   yes.  Q   I had asked you about Esther Mediik's mother and I think  you said her name was Emma?  A   Yes, Emma Mediik.  Q   Who was she married to?  A   Peter Brown.  Q   Was Emma related to William Jackson?  A   That's right.  Q   What was the relationship to William Jackson?  A   Some kind of a niece to William Jackson.  Q   I see.  Now, was William Jackson a simooget?  A   Yes. 1-31  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q    Do you remember his name?  A   'Wiiseeks.  Q    'Wiiseeks?  A   'Wiiseeks. It means you can take a big bucket and throw  it over, 'Wiiseeks.  Q   You take a what?  A   Big bucket and dump it right over.  Q   Take a big bucket and dump it over?  A   yes, that's 'Wiiseeks.  Q    Do you remember Emma's mother's name?  A   My dad's first cousin is Hannah Jackson.  Q   Right. And Hannah Jackson, do you remember what her  Gitksan name is?  A   Hannah Jackson?  Gee, that's Only little kid's name,  that's what I remember, Wihl'wiiyibee.  Q   That's a little kid's name?  A   Young, that was still a young name.  Q   A young name?  A   Not a real little kid. YOu didn't even know he's going  to be chief now.  Q   Who are you talking about?  Ralph?  A   Yes, he's 'Wiiseeks.  Q   Ralph is 'Wiiseeks?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, when you got married, was your marriage to Esther  -- was that arranged by your family?  A   Yes. Going together for five years before that time,  that's why they let us go together.  Q   What village was Esther from?  A   Where is she from?  Q   Yes, what village?  A   Right in Hazelton, and her grandmother's up at Kispiox.  Q   Her grandmother was from Kispiox?  A   Yes.  Q   But she lived in Hazelton?  A   Yes.  Q    Did you have any children, David?  A   Eh?  Q    Did you have any children?  A   From her?  Q   Yes.  A   No.  She had operation and she scared to go back to  there.  The doctor want she back but she don't want to  go.  That's why she got that cancer, that's what the  doctor told her.  Q   When did she die?  A   Was about, I don't know, right around over ten years now,  I think. 1-32  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q    Did you marry again after Esther?  A   No. Tried, but no.  MR. RUSH:  I missed that?  MR. PLANT:  He tried but no.  THE WITNESS:  Always on the run again.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR . RUSH:  Q  You haven't had any children yourself? You have no  children from anybody else?  A    OFF THE RECORD  THE WITNESS: The mother's no good. I got one but the mother's  no good.  She left little girl in the doctor's while I  was up to Grand Duke.  I didn't even fool around when  I was working.  Month by month, that's what I did. That  little woman left the baby into the doctor and the doctor  gave her chance to take the baby, strong enough to be  taking but, no, she go. Finally, the doctor turns around  and takes the baby and give it to Welfare    I told her before I left when I come  down again  we'll get the baby, get a big house, what you think, but  she's playing around, so she left it. She was going,  I ask her what did she do with the baby, and she tried  to tell me the lie.  Tell me to come back again. Until  I find that out, so I got to be on the run.  Too mean.  Really mean.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q David, you have other names, you have other  simooget  names, don't you?  A Yes, that was Muut.  I got all kinds of little names  before that time.  Q  I Would like  to ask you about your names.  A I gave one of them back. They gave me the little name  from Solomon  Jack and I give it back -- when is that?  Q  Can you    A  I gave it back to him. And another name, that's the one  that Clifford -- I gave one of my names to Clifford  because it's  no use to me.  Q Can I just ask you about your names?  What was your baby  name?  A Me?  Q  Yes, your first name? 1-33  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr.  Rush  A   That was Ts'uusgagyet hloxs, little man.  Q   What,s    A You seen that moon, the moon, and you can see on a really  clear night, it looks like a little man in there. That's  why they call me Ts'uusgagyet hloxs.  Q   Can you say it again, the name that means little man?  A   Ts'uusgagyet hloxs.  It mean that little man in the moon.  Q   Did you give this name to somebody?  A   No.  Q   What name did you hold after that?  A   That's that Haat, ixsgyedit.  Q   What does that mean?  A   It means kind of mean, like acting, acting like mean to  everything.  Q   Acting mean?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, did you give that name to somebody?  A   That was Clifford.  Q    Clifford?  A   Oh, wait a minute.  What did I do? Yes, that's right,  I gave it to CLifford.  Q    Is that — which Clifford? Is that Clifford Sanpere?  A   Yes.  Q    Sanpere?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, you told us you also had the name Muut?  A   Yes, that was after. Billy Muut gave me that name before  he really got sick, and he wants me to keep that name.  To be Chief Muut but my mother don't like, so he wants  me to double up my name as Muutand  'Niikyap, that will  be two chiefs name.  That's too much. But I can do that  -- I forgot who is that. He double  it up himself.  I  said that I will look at the time when I take my mother's  chief as 'Niikyap and I seen Alex was standing, my own  brother,  I will get no money now so I turn around and  I tell the people at the feast, I float Muut's name to  my brother, Alex.  Q   You wanted to float    A   That's what they call it, float.  Q    To your brother, Alex.  A   Yes.  Q    Did you do that?  A   Yes, and I take my mother's idea. I taking 'Niikyap  instead.  So they do that.  Q   Alex is dead now?  A   Yes.  Q   And did 1-34  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   But nobody holds it but I still keep it.  Q   Did the name float back to you after Alex's death?  A   Oh yes.  Yes, still on me.  Q   So you now have two    So, I don't care about  that. I shouldn't do that.  But  it's all the money I dumped at that time when Alex died.  I don't want either One standing alone in there, in front  of the people up there.  This is first time when it opens  up, when they open that hall. I  finish it all.  Q   So today, David, you hold the name of 'Niikyap?  A   Yes.  Q  And the name Of Muut?  A   Yes.  Muut behind me now anyway.  Q   Yes.  Muut is a wamsimooget name?  A  That's wamsimooget.  Q  Yes, and is that a simooget name of the House of 'Niikyap  A  Yes.  That's 'Niikyap's own idea.  MR. PLANT: I missed that last answer?  MR. RUSH: He said it's 'Niikyap s own idea.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    David, I'm going to stop now, okay?  A   Yes.  Q   We'll take a rest and we'll start again tomorrow.  A   Tomorrow?  Q   Yes.  If we start at ten o'clock, would that be all right  with you?  A  Morning?  Q   In the morning.  A  Yes.  That will be okay, I think.  MR. RUSH: We'll take a break now and start again tomorrow.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4.00 p.m.  TO BE RESUMED AT 10.00 a.m. , 28 February, 1986  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  Veronica Harper (Ms)  Official Court Reporter  VH:Mar.3/86 B.C.S.R.A. #263  TRANSCRIPT CONTINUES ON PAGE 1-35 1-35  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  DAVID GUNANOOT, a Witness called  on behalf of the Plaintiffs,  duly affirmed, testifies as  follows:  RALPH MICHELL,  Gitksan Interpreter,  Affirmed.  — UPON COMMENCING AT 10.00 a.m. , 28 February, 1986  MR. RUSH: We'll start this Commission again, David.  Today  is the 2 8th February and we'll start again from where  were left off yesterday.  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH (contd) :  Q   I wanted to ask you about 'Niikyap and about where  'Niikyap originally came from; can you tell us where  'Niikyap originally came from?  A  Talked about it. The first people Gitangasx they call  it.  That's what they call them. They got those three,  two, two bodies and perhaps  one up there, Guutgo'oo  they call it. Supposed to be cousin.  Those going  together, two brothers and Nagun.  That's a different  tribe altogether.  Q  What was the name of the tribe?  A  That was Niikyap's tribe.  For the two of them.  That's  between those two.  Q  Okay.  A  His name was Nagun and that old lady was being crying  around, back and forth, and that little village going  the other side, go back again, still keep on doing that.  Finally, she come up again, she come up again and she's  got a pack on her back and there those people, those  two brothers asking her what is she was crying about.  Oh, you poor old woman.  Why don't you sit down and  have bite of fish. And the old lady, take her pack  off, put it down here, yes, I will have that bite of  fish because I haven't got no some kind of tooth, she  talking about. It's not only two of them, it's clear  enough, to just sit down and stitch it again. That's  what she said to those two.  They did sit down and eat that fish and drink something to drink and pack up again and go. And gone up  those last and was gone a long time.  The first place  where she was expecting for the camp, she's make a camp 1-36  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  around there.  Nobody but she did. She keep on travelling again.  It's quite a way travelling, build another  camp again, start a fire right there.  Still she gone.  I don't know how far she go but you get up on top of  one of the mountain and there is the smoke way up the  valley some place.  Watching and gathering up some of those trees from  on top of that mountain, those little short kind, get  it together and pile it up.  After that she got plenty  of them and start a fire and there goes the smoke going  up.  They give those people's camp a sign that she was  there.  After that she ride back.  When she get to that  camp she made and she stayed there and start the fire  again.  The next time she started again, she start another  camp again, start a fire again and get all those kind  of wood and pile up again, and seems to be a lot of  people around, and still up until she got back to  Guutgo'oo.  'Niikyap knows, knows something going on. She  got all those fish and cook it for the village, right  there, and she know what 'Niikyap did, and that's what  they call it, luusagait 'nii. So'Niikyap says pack  up and go.  Q  Who Said that?  A   'Niikyap  said to move out because that pile already  give those people sign and the people will come down  and wipe out the people at that Guutgo'oo.  That's the  time  'Niikyap knows that was going to be something  happen.  They went down all right until they get that--  they get, what they call it? Galdo'o.  Q  Was this Old Galdo'o?  A  Yes,  that's what they call it, Galdo'o. They stop there.  'Niikyap  was being around there looking, looking for  some place where he is going to get the fish for himself  into his canyon. But he was picking up all those people  which  is at Galdo'o.  Now, talking about, I've got no place around here  to get any fish, so we have to go back, and they went  back a little further up to Galdo'o and there's narrow  canyon  right there.  Used to be a big flute log, they  used to land it on one end and swim for it, and right  across  the whole canoe there. The old man fixed that  and they get another size logs and put it on the slide  and get that railing on one side where everybody go  in the water. They did get over all right. Went down  to the left side to Skeena River until they get to,  what  they call it? Big Spring, the big creek comes 1-37  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  down.  Big Spring they call it, 'Wiigwanks in our  language.  Q   Can you repeat that?  What's that again?  A    'Wiigwanks.  MR. PLANT:  Is that the name of the stream?  MR. RUSH:  Big Spring.  MR. PLANT:  Big Spring?  MR. RUSH: Yes.  THE WITNESS:  They stop there all right for a while but no  fish there yet. It usually some coho in those days,  a sign.  They didn't even know what kind of fish it  was.  They went up the mountain there, going straight  up the mountain, and going up and look around.  When  they get on top of the mountain, there's the big meadow  again, same kind of big flat nice dry ground.  They  were thinking about some cariboos around there but there  is no cariboos around.  Talk about those ground hog.  Lot of ground hog at that place.  Whistl ing all around  there.  They travelling again.  They found that lake.  They find the lake all right. But they didn't even  know, anybody about in that lake.  The lake is a kind of funny thing. They started  a fire there but there's the water comes up, that little  lake was raising, raising up, just about get to the  fire.  So they move it up, just keep on going, and going  up, and moving the camp up there, and there's gwanks,  nice gwanks. There's nice spring water. So they're  going up, little further up and that, and build the  camp there. That is where they're going to get their  water. They stays there.  They seen that spring bubbles  up sometime, still keep on doing that.  So the young kids got a long pole and put it right  down.  There's no bottom.  Q   They put the pole into the spring?  A  Yes.  They didn't even know and there comes those big  young fellow, strong, and they take that pole and shaking  it like that and finally let it go. That pole is big,  didn't even come back up, and there comes the pole right  at the middle of the lake, They see them coming up.  The ones really young, they get another pole and  peel it, peel that long pole and was nice and white  so that they can spot it again.  They still keep on  doing it again.  They let go again and in a short time  there comes that pole right at the middle of the lake  again. Now they find it out that's where the pole comes  out.  Now, after that they left that place and come down  and they follow that creek down.  They call it Xsit'in. 1-38  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  Xsit'in?  A  Xsit'in.  Finally they find the village there.  Q  What village?  A  That was Kisgagas.  Q  They followed Xsit'in down to Kisgagas?  A  Yes.  That is what they call it, Laxts'ap, that village.  That's not Kisgagas, Laxts'ap they call it.  It will  be about three miles below Kisgagas.  MR. PLANT: Below Kisgagas?  MR. RUSH: Below Kisgagas, yes.  THE WITNESS: They fixing up camps at Kisgagas. The old man  went down again and look and look for that, where they're  going to catch the fish but everybody say they go looking  for fish.  They can t -- they haven't got no place to look  for fish themselves so he told his wife, you better  fix up my pack and fill it up with everything what is  good to eat, I'm going up to there. The old lady fixes  up his pack and the old man take off, going up the river.  Still he heard some nice water down at the river,  he went down there and look for any fish, where he was  to catch the fish was no good at all. Still keep on  going, still keep on going there.  No see water again.  Went up there again, going down again, no place for  fish around. Still keep on going until he found it.  Bigger creek comes in, in front of him, he stop right  there because the canyon was -- both sides was so steep  he can't even cross.  So he followed that, he followed that creek and  go down and finally come out at -- that creek comes  out to Xsugwinlik'i'insxw.  That's what they call that  river, Xsugwinlik'i'insxw.  Big flat rock was at  Xsugwinlik'i'insxw,  and he sat on there. There's rock  right there and there's another one. That second.  Then there's another one. Three rocks like that.  The old man has been sitting on that big flat rock,  way up, and takes his pack and takes something for his  lunch and sat down, lay down and eat it. I believe  this one, that's the place I'm looking for, because  he seen those three rocks sticking up on top of the  river.  A short time they goes to jump, the fish, going  right over, jump the water.  Yes, that's what I'm looking  for, that is what he said to himself. He's watching  it again, there goes another one, another fish.  There  goes another one.  There's lot of fish and even the  other, behind that, the outside part, there's the fish 1-39  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  going over there too.  He said I should build two fish traps around here  but I only need one because there's too many fish jumping  right up. All he think about, go home to his wife,  where the family is. When he get to Kisgagas he said,  I got the place, let's go up there.  He tell his nephews  to get ready and cut the trail to go.  I don't know how many days they spend going up  there until they get there.  The old man didn't even  sleep very much, fixing up that fish trap. Still keep  on doing that.  Finally, he finished the fish trap all  right, they take it right out, giving it right out.  There's the fish, just going like that.  In no time  they fill it -- I don't know what you call it -- just  like something in the fish trap like that, there comes  the fish, they hit this one, they got no place to go  and going right back and landed in that box, like --  it was some kind of narrow size stick.  They get another  one behind that where they throw the fish in. They  throw all the fish in there.  They're trying to fill up the smoke house with  the fish. They can't even use that much fish or they  all wanted to come, so they fix up -- tell his ne phew  to get some of those half dried fish, put that in your  pack and go back to Kisgagas and put up the feast up  there, or down there, and tell those people, would you  true and tell those people stand up one of you to be  standing up and tell the people why did you come down  there and fix up the feast.  Tell them what to do.  Anybody wants the fish they have to put up their hands.  Any more again, they got to put his hands too. Any  more again, that will be that one. So many of them  putting up their hands. They all agree about that.  Every one of them put up their hands.  They all pack  up and they're going up to Gwit ts'ilaasxwt, that's  what they call that place, where that trap is.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Gwit ts'ilaasxwt?  A   Yes.  Q   They all went there, did they?  A   Yes.  Q   What happened when they got there?  A   When they got there, they just building up their own  smoking, their smoke house, and they start drying fish  too. They all finished for those sockeyes, spring salmon,  and there comes the coho, comes up late in the fall,  but steelhead coming up too for the winter. Going up 1-40  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  to Babine River.  All the time they went back to Kisgagas  This time he built his own house.  Q    'Niikyap did?  A   Yes, which was called Tsimganootsenex.  Tsimganootsenex  they call it.  They stayed there and they went back to  where he seen, where they seen that bunch of ground hog,  they go back there again. But they already talk about  that little lake, somebody raise it up.  So the rest  of the people heard about that. They were talking about  maybe some nice trout in there.  There goes one man,  his name was Anmootixs.  Q   Anmootixs?  A   Yes.  Q   He was a man that was at the lake?  A   Yes.  Q   Did he go to the lake?  A   No, there's only -- he's going to try and catch the  trout around there, that's what he think but it's already  Niikyap find that lake.  So he still keep on, it's  got to be all okay. He built that -- he built a little  thing where the fish going to land. When the fish goes  in there and he stuck right in there, they can't go  Out no more.  They get that finished and fix it up and  put it on like that.  The next morning they can't go up to that spring.  Go down in the early morning to get some nice trout  to eat. He did pull that little mouse, they call it.  Goes there, seems to be a man, got eyes and he got a  mouth but no head. So they call that Gimgano'ohlit.  Just the shoulder, that's what it means.  Q    That's What it means?  A   Yes.  Q   WOUld you say it again?  A   Gimgano'ohlit, just the shoulders.  Q   Just the shoulder, that's what it means?  A   Yes. The man is only taking his fish trout trap and  dump it and run fast as he can, going up to the camp,  and pack up everything and go back and tell 'Niikyap  about it.  By the time he gets that thing what we're  talking about and put it on his blanket.  Q    That's When 'Niikyap put that on the blanket?  A   Yes. That's the way it will be and it can't be forgotten  And still trapping that ground hog.  Q    Did they trap ground hogs up there?  A   They use snares.  Q    They used snares?  A   Yes, don't trap.  Q   What did they do with the ground hog when they snared  them? 1-41  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  They dried them each.  That was very nice for the people  to eat.  At the same time they using those skins, they  using the skins, stitch them together.  They made a  nice blanket on it.  That's they use for blanket.  That's  what the blanket is at about that times. Still keep  on doing that. Finally, he decided he's getting richer  for everything.  'Niikyap getting richer for everything.  Any kind of skin, got all kinds of skin.  Q   He had all kinds?  A  No moose around at that time. Not very many cariboos.  Bears, grizzly, they got all those.  They sent the  boys out to gO looking for the nice clean timber.  Good  size timber.  They each went Out to look for it. They  get the timber all right. They cut it down. They take  all the boys dragging it into town.  That's the town  anyway.  Q  They dragged it into Kisgagas?  A Yes, and they picking up rest of those people, kind  of a chief, and who knows how to carve. That's what  they do.  Q  Did they carve the timber?  A  And, Oh yes, they carved it. put in that Gimgano'ohlit  and the lake, what, the kind of shadow like.  Q  Tell us again what they put on the timber?  A  That's what I mean.  Gimgano'ohlit was on there, and  those big bear, and they cut in half what they want  at the time when they're fighting between the Telegraph  Creek.  Q  What else did they put on the pole?  A  What they call it? Ganootsenex they call it.  Q  What was that mean, Ganootsenex?  A  The lake down there, takes the sun back there.  Q  A shadow.  A  There goes trees behind them. It goes like that into  that lake.  Q  That's the shadow on the surface of the lake?  A  Yes. That's what they call it, Tsimganootsenex too.  Q  Did 'Niikyap settle at Kisgagas?  Did he stay there?  A  Stay? Yes.  That's his main home at this time.  He's  got his pole there.  He just went up to that Xsigwit  ts'ilaasxwt, it was like a fishing town, but he always  stays in Kisgagas.  MR. RUSH:  Now, we're just going to pause for a minute, DaVid,  so that we can change the tape and then I want to ask  you a few more questions about the coming to Kisgagas by  'Niikyap.  SO we'll just pause here for a moment. Just  wait one minute. 1-42  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  - - -  SHORT RECESS  MR.  RUSH: We'll start again now, David.  Q   I want to ask you about Gitangasx;  can you tell us  what the meaning of Gitangasx  is in English?  A  Gitangasx?  Q   Yes.  A  You think you eat, it taste funny, bad.  Q   The meaning of Gitangasx is anything that tastes good  tastes bad?  A   It,s no good.  Q   It's no good?  A  It,s awful, and even the people coming in there, they  didn't even last long, take off from that village.  That's why they call it Gitangasx because it's no good  for them.  Q  Now, where was Gitangasx located?  Where is it?  A  Gitangasx?  Q   Yes.  A  That was way up the Skeena RiVer, little ways the other  side there, fourth cabin on the right side going up,  that's Gitangasx.  It's still there.  Awful little place.  The last time I seen it it's nothing but heavy brush  around to that Gitangasx.  Q  YOu've been there though, have you?  A  Oh yes.  Have been up quite a lot.  Q  You say it's near the fourth cabin?  A  Yes, the other side of fourth cabin.  Q   Is that the fourth cabin on the telegraph trail?  A  That's right, yes.  Q   Is there a lake or river close by to where Gitangasx was?  A  Right in front of it.  Q  What is it? What's the lake? The river?  A  The river.  Q  What is it?  A  Skeena River.  Q   It's the Skeena River?  A  Yes.  Q   Is there any other -- is there a lake close to there?  A  No, they didn't even tell.  Q  Now, when 'Niikyap left Gitangasx, when he left and  went down the Skeena, how many of his -- how many people  went with him?  A   I didn't even know how many. HOW many in the family.  There's quite a lot of them move out from Gitangasx on  account they take 'Niikyap's words that, abOut that  woman being out and give somebody a sign, the way out,  up to Xsu'wiiaks,  they call it.  Some place around there. 1-43  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  That's why they give the sign. They seen smoke comes  out, that's why they built the smoke too and run back  to Gitangasx.  They knows those people from that camp.  They follow them and clean Gitangasx right out. The  old man knows about that so they put up a feast that  night and tell the people to move out.  Some of them,  oh, that old man, crazy.  He's going crazy. They still  Stayed there after that.  I don't even know where they  go. They cleaned them out.  Q  So some people stayed at Gitangasx?  A  Yes.  Q  After 'Niikyap left with his people?  A  Yes.  Q  What happened to those people that stayed at Gitangasx?  A  Cleaned them out.  Q  Who cleaned them out?  A  Some place around -- they call it Ts'ets'aut.  Q   Ts'ets'aut?  A  Yes. They call it -- I forget that -- liard.  Q   Liard?  A  Yes, liard.  Just as bad as those same kind other people,  they're very bad.  Q   These were the    A  Killing people.  Q  These were the Liard people?  A  Yes, that is what they say. Ts'ets'aut, that's what  they call it. Stikine.  Telegraph Creek. There's Liard  in there.  Q   The Liard Indians were the Ts'ets'aut?  A  Yes.  Q   David, when Niikyap went down the Skeena after he left  Gitangasx    A  Yes.  Q     you told us that he went to Old Galdo'o?  A  That's right.  Q  Galdo'o you said?  A  Yes.  Q  How long did 'Niikyap and his people stay at Old Galdo'o?  A  Not very much. Got no place for fishing.  It all depends  on fish. Generally stay to fish, about, just a few days  Q  Then you told us that they left Old Galdo'o and went    A  Went to Big Spring.  Q   Yes, but before they went to the Big Spring they had  to cross the Skeena?  A  Yes, go back to Wilsgamalgan.  Float log crossing Skeena  River.  Q  Now is the place that they crossed the Skeena, is that 1-44  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  called Wilsgamalgan?  A  Yes.  They go back there to the right -- left side to  go down.  Q  Did the people have to build a crossing to get across  or was it already there?  A  They already, they crossing that Wilsgamalgan.  Q  Now, when they got to the other side of the Skeena,  they went down the other side of the Skeena?  A  Yes.  Q   They went, you said, to the Big Spring?  A  That's right.  Q  What's that called in Gitksan?  The Big Spring?  A   'Wiigwanks.  Q   How long did they stay at the Big Spring?  A  Just go there about two or three days maybe. They only  still travelling.  Q   Yes.  A  They travelling there.  Q  Then you said that they looked around and went up a  mountain?  A  Yes, go up mountain.  Q   Do you remember what the name of the mountain was?  A  No. Just on top they call that mountain is Maxhlalaxuut  on top mountain.  Q  On top of the mountain is called Maxhlalaxuut?  A  Yes.  Q  What does that mean?  A  That means that big open field over the top.  Q  You talked about the big meadow up there?  A  Yes.  Q   Is that Maxhlalaxuut?  A  Yes.  Q  Does the big meadow have another name too? ' Are there  two names for that meadow?  A  Gwinwijix.  Q   Gwinwijix?  A  Yes.  They expecting cariboos to be around there.  That's  why they call it, expecting cariboos to be on that.  Q   But they didn't find any?  A  Oh, some times those around.  Q  But you told us there was some ground hog?  A  Oh plenty.  Q  Okay.  A  That's what they using to putting up the feast about  that totem pole he put up.  Q  Do you know how long 'Niikyap stayed in the big meadow?  A  Keep on travelling around there until he get to Kisgagas.  Q  Now, you told us about the little lake which you 1-45  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  described as a funny lake?  A  Yes, that's what they call that.  Q  Can you tell us, what's the name of that little lake?  A  T'amsimiloo.  Q   T'amsimiloo?  A  Yes.  Q  What does T'amsimiloo mean?  A  That means Devil's Lake.  Q   The Devil's Lake.  David, during your lifetime have  you ever been up to T'amsimiloo?  A  No, I never was up there.  Q   Do you know where it is?  A  Yes, I know that.  Xsit'in they call that.  That's right,  Xsit'in.  Q  Xsit'in is the creek,  isn't it?  A  Yes. A big good size creek.  Q  Now, when 'Niikyap left T'amsimiloo he followed Xsit'in?  A  He followed Xsit'in until they get down to that, they  call it Laxts'ap.  Q  Where was Laxts'ap?  Was that close to another river?  A  That was right at the edge of the Babine River.  Q  Now, this is -- you then told us about how 'Niikyap found  his fishing site and this is Xsigwit ts'ilaasxwt.  You  told us about that yesterday and today too?  A  Yes.  Q   I want you to tell me about the trap that 'Niikyap made  there?  I didn't quite understand how the trap worked.  Can you just tell us again how it operated?  A  Can't tell you all the part of it,  Q  Okay.  A  Because it's very hard, there's too many names, little  piece like that.  Q  Can you just tell us again how the trap worked, how  it stopped the fish and how 'Niikyap got the fish?  A  That is what they call it, went like that there and  the fish comes up and they're stuck right there and  they're still swimming but they're stuck right there  and it fell back.  Q  So the fish actually swim up a raised portion of the  trap?  A  Yes.  Q  And then they fall back, dO they?  A  Yes, got no place to go.  Q  Yes. When they fall back, what do they fall back into?  A  They fall back into that kind of tray like, good sized,  and when they fell back back they landed right there,  and they slip right into that tray, where they're stuck 1-46  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  and then they died and move it again, and moved them  right into the dryer place. That's where they washed  them and dried them, up to the smoke house.  Q  What's the Gitksan name for a trap? A fish trap?  A  T'in.  Q   T'in?  A  Yes, t'in.  Q  Where did 'Niikyap build his smoke house?  A  Well, that'sright at the same place, right at the  mouth of the creek, Xsigwit ts'ilaasxwt  Q   OKay.  A  There's quite a few people around there due to fishing  time.  That was I think what they're talking about,  they still using nice fresh fish for the Christmas.  They call that Christmas fish, 'witt'isimsaa.  Q  Again?  A   'Wiit'isimsaa.  Q   'Wiit'isimsaa?  A  Yes, big days.  Q   Big days?  A  That's big days.  Q   That's What that means?  A   Yes.  Q  Now, yesterday too, David, you told us about a place  where 'Niikyap built a storage place for the fish;  you said that he dug down into the ground?  A  Oh yes.  Q  Where did he do that?  A  Just don't want it to be mouldy.  Put it up on open  place, that will be too hard.  Too hard to eat.  Q   So then    A  They put it right into that kind of -- kind of a --  dug into the ground and fix up the place sd they can  find their fish, and that was keeps nice and they keep  saying how dry it is, no mouldy, no dried out.  It was  just like a root house, where they have root house.  Q  Just like a root house, you said?  A  Yes.  Q  Where did 'Niikyapbuild that?  A  That's right, every close up to the Canyon Creek.  Q   That's Where his fish site Was?  A  Yes.  Q  Close to Xsigwit ts'ilaasxwt?  A  Yes.  Q  Okay.  A  During the winter time when they need some more fish  they go up there.  I go down to Kisgagas.  Q  Now, did 'Niikyap give many of the fish that he caught 1-47  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  to the other people of Kisgagas?  A  Well, that's belong to them.  Q  Yes. Now, was there a feast at that time when he gave  the fish to them?  A  No. They only got too many in the fish trap. He  catched too many there.  Q  When the fish Were given to the other people of  Kisgagas, did that mean that he was then allowed to  stay at Kisgagas?  A  Oh yes.  They sure like everything what he is doing.  They still keep on pushing him up.  He's coming to be  big chief in Kisgagas, and Melulek too.  Q   I wanted to ask you, who was the other big chief at  Kisgagas?  A  That,s Melulek.  MR. PLANT: Can I just get a spelling on that?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Now, David, you told us that after 'Niikyap was settled  at Kisgagas he went back up to the place where the  ground hogs were?  A  That's right.  Q  Does the place where the ground hogs were located, does  that have a name?  A  That's Maxhlalaxuut.  Maxhlalaxuut and Gwinijix, those  two names.  Q  Those two names you gave us before?  A  Yes.  Q   This is Maxhlalaxuut?  A  Yes, Maxhlalaxuut.  Q  And Gwinijix?  A  Yes, Gwinijix.  Now, was this area, this place, is that part of 'Niikyap  territory?  A  He's the first man locate it, find that place.  Q   Did this then beome his territory?  For hunting?  A  Yes.  Q  Now you told us about the young man, Anmootixs?  The  young man w?0 went to fish in the T'amsimiloo?  A  Oh yes, that's right.  Q  What Was his name again?  A  Anmootixs.  Q  When he Was fishing for the trout, in the lake?  A  Yes, he asked 'Niikyap first.  Q   Yes. 1-48  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   About that.  Q   And 'Niikyap gave him his permission?  A   Yes, he already agree, go ahead.  Q   When Anmootixs was fishing for trout in T'amsimiloo,  did he see something in the water?  A   Why he fixed that.  Q   Yes.  A   He didn't see but he wants to see if there's any trout  in the next part.  Q   Yes.  What did he see in the water the next morning?  A   That's all he seen, that -- what they call it?  Gimgano'ohlit.  Q    That's the figure with no head, Gimgano'ohlit?  A   Seems to be face of man, the eyes and the mouth.  Q   This is just the shoulders you called it?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  A   I don't think told you about -- even that lake wind,  Anmootixs dumped that, that little fish out again and  ran right away from that lake, and the water comes behind  him, and was talking behind him, tsa luu guuxsin  Anmootixs dilk.  Q   WOuld you say again what he said?  A   Tsa luu guuxsin Anmootixs dilk. That's what that lake  said to him. Still running off that lake.  Q   What does that mean in English?  A   That was Anmootixs scared the children.  Q   Anmootixs scaring the children?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, you told us that the figure of the two eyes and  the face on the chest    A   Yes, just like that, the eyes and the mouth.  Q   Yes, you're showing his eyes on your chest?  A   Yes.  Q   And the mouth jUst above your belly?  A   Yes. ind the shoulders.  Q   Now, you said that 'Niikyap put that on his blanket?  A   Oh yes.  Q   Is that figure on your blanket today?  A   Yes, still on. They can't run off.  MR. RUSH: Just take a minute, David. Just pause a second.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. RUSH: Let's start again.  Q    David, When I ask you to explain something, you tell  me everything, okay?  A   Yes. 1-49  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  Now, I was just asking you about your blanket and the  face that's on your blanket;  is that your crest that's  on your blanket?  Your ayuks?  A  Yes, that's what they call that, ayuks.  Q  Ayuks.  A  What they using for.  Some kind of doing things, that's  ayuks.  Q  Now you told us what 'Niikyap had and his followers  carved on the pole;  you told us about the pole that  'Niikyap carved;  and there were ayuks on the pole,  were there not?  A  That,s right.  Q   I think you told us about three ayuks?  A  Yes.  Q  You told us about just the shoulder?  A  Oh yes.  Q  And you told us about    A  About the shadow?  Q  About the shadow.  A  Yes.  Q  And you told us about the  split bear?  A  Yes.  Q  Were there any other ayuks on the pole?  A  Just a minute.  Got to be -- half cut in half.  Q   Half cut bear?  A  Yes.  'Niikyap is already grabbed the half up the head  of grizzly which they using when they fight the Stikine  people, and 'Niikyap said  "I'm going to take this" and  the other fellow -- the other fellow jumped in and  grabbed the ending of the bear, he grabbed it.  No,  it belong to me, and here  comes Gutgwinuxs to cut it  in half, here, here.  You take this one and you take  this one.  Q  So 'Niikyap got half of the bear?  A  Yes.  Q  And who got the other half?  A   I forgot his name. That's relation to Mary Mackenzie.  That's his relation.  I forgot his name. Luce maybe.  Q   Luce?.  A   It seems to be English.  MR. PLANT:  What was the last part?  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  What did you say again, David?  Just the last part?  A  Luce.  MR. PLANT:  Seems to lose everything?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION 1-50  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   You say Luce seems like English?  A   Yes.  Q    David, can you tell us how long ago was it? Can you  remember how long ago was it that 'Niikyap came from  Gitangasx to Kisgagas?  A   Cannot tell.  Q   How far back before you?  A   Long way.  They claim that was first, when I mention  about that, there was up there when they came on ice.  You remember the high water, no whites no place at all.  Just -- they didn't even know where that Gitangasx came  from. And they didn't even know where the Galdo'o came  from. They didn't even know where the Kisgagas around  to, or the Babine people, all around there. They didn't  even know any place where they came. So they're talking  about, that was big raft was being lain on the wrong  side of the river. That's the first time they knew  they could, that was the flute going in there.  They  didn't even know anything about the fire either.  No  fire. They knows they can eat all right. So the people  they used to clean up the fish and slice it very thin  and give it tothe kids, and they lay that right on  that big flat rock, like that, and that was a very hot  day, those days, put it right on and it comes to be  looked like cooked, changed colour, white colour.  That's  the time they ate it.  The fat from the goat, that fat came from the drying  same thing.  They takes it Out bUt it right on there  and that fat looks like cooked again. That's the time  they like it, theyate it.  They still keep on doing  that.  Finally, they start to fool around, play, find  those white rock, white rock was laying around and they  picking up and playing with it, and the other kids  were taking the rocks and    Q    Scraping them together?  A   Yes, scrape together, and they sees spark going down.  They still keep on doing it and then they think they're  going to start a fire with  that. They looking for some  kind of willow bark, and the old willow bark was close  to the wood, to the dried wood inside. They take this  kind of things like that, and rub together and put it  on the sun too. they dry that out nice. They takes  that rock again, still keep  on doing that, and then  smoke comes from that and there goes the blue one, and  they still keep on fooling around. Finally they start  a fire and they get those little same things, same kind 1-51  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  fine limp. They got those things and taste the fire  going, and that's the time they're dancing around, and  they're still dancing now, every time like that. That's  the old story.  Q   Yes.  A  When they really going, they start some kind of fire.  Take it up to the camp, build big fire right there.  That's how they start the fire. The other place there  they only taking a big long pole and the two of them,  just like one man each side of those cross-cut saw.  Q   Cross-cut saw?  A  Yes, that's what they did.  They did that.  Pulling  like that. Just playing, they didn't even know what  they're doing.  Whatever they do for.  They seen the  smoke too. So they still keep on doing that. Finally,  they get that bark from cedar.  They using cedar for  them saws, and they put right on there for the rafters  and pull on that, on that thing, and they start smoking  too, keep going.  Finally smoke comes out there too  and they start a fire for themselves too.  That's how  theystart the fire.  After that they change what they do. They made  a big pole, and it was pretty small end on the trunk,  getting bigger and bigger and smaller down below. They  takes that one and goes like that    Q  Rubbing it back and forth between their hands?  A  Yes. They got a little hole right where that .... and  finally there's smoke and they start  fire, if you want,  there goes the fire again.  They make big long rope  like out of those cedar barks.  Twist it and twist it.  They start a fire right in there and later on they still  keep on going till, when they need some fire, they blew  on it, so it goes, like Chinaman, they using smoke.  That's what they did. Then they got that flame and  I don' t know which place they using those. Kispiox  or Galdo'o, I don't know.  Q  You tOld Us yesterday where they got the flint, I think?  A  Yes, it's up Bell Irving River.  Luut'ahlts'imilix.  There's a creek comes down, below that.  Q   Below what creek?  A  Below -- I forgot. Taft.  Taft Creek.  Just below the  Taft Creek, that's where that little creek comes down.  That's the Ansalagamt.  Q  Ansalagamt?  A  That's what they call it.  Q   I Want to ask you a little bit more about 'Niikyap at  Kisgagas.  You told us that 'Niikyap built his house 1-52  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  at Kisgagas?  A  That's right.  Q  Were there any crests on his house?  Did he put any  crests on his house, on the pole house?  What?  Q   Did 'Niikyap put any crests on his house?  Or did he  just have them on the pole?  A  Anything was on the house was on the pole.  Just like  some kind of thing what never be lost, I think.  That  is why the put it on the blanket.  Q  They put it on the blanket so it wouldn't be lost?  A  That's what I think, yes.  Q  Now you told us about the pole at Kisgagas that 'Niikyap  carved?  A  That's right.  Q  You lived at Kisgagas for a while?  A  Ohy yes.  Q  Did you ever see a pole there?  Did you ever see 'Niikyap  pole there?  A  It's already rot.  Really rotten.  It's already fallen.  Laying on the ground and rot.  Q  But you could see it was 'Niikyap's pole, could you?  A  Everybody.  Some people from Kisgagas was telling me  it belongs to 'Niikyap.  Q  When you were at Kisgagas as a young man, were there  other poles at Kisgagas? Was there    A  Few of them. Quite a few poles around there.  Q  Did Melulek have a pole there?  A  Oh yes.  Q  Who else had a pole there?  A  Who has that one up there?  That's brought down too.  'Wiiseeks.  Q   'wiiseeks had a pole there?  A  Yes.  And Melulek had a pole there.  There's quite a  few of them.  'Wiik'aax got a pole there.  Q   'wiik'aax?  A   'Wiik'aax.  Q   Yes?  A   'Wiiminoosikx  got a pole there.  Q   'wiiminoosikx?  A  Yes.  Gee, I forget the rest of them.  Haiwas was one  of them.  Q   Haiwas?  A  That's easy to write!    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION 1-53  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   David, yesterday you told us that Haimadimtxw was a  chief in the House of 'Niikyap?  A   That's right.  Q   What does the name of Haimadimtxw mean in English?  A   Some kind of a smooth stone.  Q   When you were a young boy travelling with your father  in the bush, was one of the chiefs that was travelling  with you, was it a Chief Haimadimtxw?  A   That's right.  Q   What Was his name?  His English name?  A   Peter Haimadimtxw.  Q   Was he your uncle?  A   Yes, that's right.  Q   Now, you told us today the story -- the account of the  people coming from Gitangasx  to Kisgagas; who told  you this when you were a small boy?  A   My grandmother used to tell me the story around there,  ill of those war between them.  Q   Was that Sarah?  A   What?  Q   Was that Sarah that told you?  A   That's right. Yes.  My mother's Sarah but my grandmother  Sarah too.  Q   Yes.  Did both your grandmother and your mother tell  you about the migration of 'Niikyap's people to    A   That's right. Yes.  That's how I like my grandmother.  I always liked her.  Sleep alongside her when I -- after  I went to bed I told her, '"Mam, you better tell me the  story".  She keep on telling me the story until she  heard me snoring, I think!  Q   Now, have you told this story to other people too?  A   No.  Some other, some kind different stories about the  old people,  just like that Nak'eeda and the little  beaver.  With the beaver and the rat to watch the timber.  And they did. The little muskrat was sitting there  watching the big cottonwood to go. And the beaver said  when the tree's moving to go down you had better holler,  holler to me so I can escape too. And the little  nak'eeda sitting there watching that, watching that  cottonwood,  still watching, watching. Finally, a cloud  comes along and goes behind, and the little muskrat  seeing that cottonwood was going down, yah, yah, he's  going, he's going, he's gone. The little muskrat jumped  right in the lake and going right under the water, and  the beaver  jumps right in there too and come out way  down.  Come out and say, no, that cottonwood still there 1-54  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  They didn't even know.  They swim back to that cottonwood  again. The beaver put him there to sit again where  he's going to watch again.  He's sitting there watching  it and there it goes again. He starts hollering and  jumps right in the lake, and going just out of the wind  and come out, and the beaver comes out outside of him,  and the cottonwood still there.  Asking Ye'e about it, what's wrong with it. They  went back again. They sitting there and that, watching  it, there it goes again.  The cloud's behind it. Behind  it. It seems to be that cottonwood going down, so he  jumps again, going over, so they jump right back to  the lake again.  Now, they come out, still there again.  They swim back and still, and the beaver said to the  muskrat, Guu yel 'wii ban t'un?  Q  What does that mean?  A That means that little muskrat telling a lie every time.  Big belly.  And the little muskrat looked at the beaver  too, he's got a big belly too, ,'Ga'niin hodii wilt ban't"  Q  Say that again, David?  A Ga'niin hodii wilt ban't.  You too even got big belly.  Q  That's what that means?  A That's what he said to the beaver.  Q Even you too have a big belly?  A Yes.  The beaver jumps and takes the little muskrat's  tail and twist, and twist that, and it used to be flat  like that but after the twist and the twist, when he  swims like that now the tail goes that way.  Q  The tail goes back and forth?  A Yes, because the beaver give him a twist.  About the  big belly, that's the end of that muskrat.  Q  What Other houses Were at Kisgagas?  From the Lax Gibuu?  From the Wolf?  A  Just 'Niikyap I think.  Q  Was Melulek Lax Gibuu?  A No, Lax Seel.  Q  Lax Seel?  A Yes.  Q  You mentioned  'Wiik'aax?  A   'Wiiseeks?  Q  No, wiik'aax.?  A   'Wiik'aax? Oh, that Lax Gibuu.  Q   'Wiik'aax, was he from Kisgagas too?  A Oh yes.  Q Was he a simooget?  A Oh yes. Both of us. Sitting the same.  Into the feast.  We both sit at the same place. A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  at the Same table with 'wiik'aax?  any other simooget from Kisgagas  1-55  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief  Rush  You sit  Yes.  Now, Can you remember  that were Lax Gibuu?  Yes, that's right.  Any other Lax Gibuu?  Lax Gibuu?  From Kisgagas?  Head simooget, the  the other? Nobody.  name.  I think his  name Paul I think.  Ts'iiwus?  Yes.  You told us that when 'Niikyap  that he went to Old Galdo'o?  Mr  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  two of us, 'Wiik'aax and me. Who's  Gee, I forget that.  I forget his  name was Ts'iiwus. Paul, English  His chief name was Ts'iiwus.  came down from Gitangasx  Yes.  Where is New  New Galdo'o?  Yes.  Oh, that was  Galdo'o, and  Galdo'o?  after the Nass River, fighting against  only two old man was left at Galdo'o.  mentioned  being stay  there.  You know how fast young  and try and catch her but, no,  They clean out those old man and those young kids after  those people from Galdo'o went out for snaring ground  hogs.  But one girl, I forgot her name, they  the name of that girl, she's the one who was  right at the Galdo'o.  She survived, did she?  They jump right out of  people live.  They jump  she jumps.  She Was too fast for them?  Yes.  Did She run away from the Nass River people?  That's right.  That's Nass River, they all from Nass  River,  But those two old man was being fighting for  the whole bunch, those people from Nass River. They  got the knife all right but it's not sharp knife. They  already got the knives anyway, they still keep on using 1-56  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  lady, still kept going.  And going up the mountain where  those people are looking after, catching. When they  get up there all the young peoples are lying down, she  was going up. But that man who using that soft knife  is still doing quite a bit of fighting. They still keep  on doing that but they can't even do very much about  that, and those people say when they move, got worse,  laid down and he died, some of them, they still keep  on working.  Some time he's laying down still keep on.  After those people -- after those people are going down,  they die there, Galdo'o, they moved Galdo'o down to New  Galdo'o.  That's how it moved.  Q   That's Why it moved?  A  Yes.  The Old Galdo'o moving it on account of that place,  they put the fire at that. They call it Gawalmihl.  Why that old village burned up  That's why they call it.  Q   How long again was that?  A  Not very long. Just about, they get the knife, the axe.  They use the axe at that time.  Before that time they  talk about, they using some kind of boons for the knife  or anything like that.  MR. RUSH:  Maybe we'll just stop now, David, and have some lunch  THE WITNESS:  Oh yes.  MR. RUSH:  We can come back at two o'clock.  THE WITNESS:  Two o'clock?  MR. RUSH:  Can you manage that?  THE WITNESS: Yes.  MR. RUSH;  We'll come and do another hour and a half this afternoon.  THE WITNESS:  Okay.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.    RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.00 o'clock  - - - LUNCHEON RECESS    RESUMED  AFTER LUNCH aT 2.0 0 p.m.  MR. RUSH: We'll start again this afternoon now, David.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   This  morning you were telling us about the ground hog  skins.  A  Ground hog skin.  Q  And you were telling us thatthey were valuable to 'Niikyap  A  Yes,  that's right. 1-57  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  Can you tell us why they were valuable?  A  Because they using it as a kind of blanket.  Giving it  to the people, to the chiefs at the feast.  Five, ten  dollars.  Sometimes keep so much for each chiefs, work  it for themselves.  The fix something to the way they  like it.  Q   Did Old 'Niikyap have a lOt of these ground hog skins?  A  Oh yes.  Sometimes they buy from anybody else who's got  any.  Q  Now, you told us too that there was a chief in the House  of 'Niikyap by the name of 'Wiinaagets?  A  Once some other people but they run Out, they died off.  Nobody can take that, no-one to take it, they haven't  got the money. BUt my dad has gOt a lOt of money sO  he took my sister, Kathleen, and Fred, the two of them  was up the same time, 'Wiinaagets and that O'yee, the  two of them was up.  M? dad's got a lot of money.  Just  one troop, about $7,000 for just two, up to Bell Irving  way. Marten was very high that time.  Q  Marten was very high?  A  Oh yes, 125 each, good one.  Q  Now, Who holds 'Wiinaagets today?  A  When my sister died I have to get up and take her son,  Jerry, to take my sister's name as 'Wiinaagets, so Jerry'  'Wiinaagets now.  Q  Where is 'Wiinaagets territory?  A  That was, I don't know how far above the Kisgagas.  It  was about 15 or 14 miles I think.  Q  Above Kisgagas?  A  Yes.  Q  You tOld us abOUt the big meadow called Maxhlalaxuut?  A  Yes.  Q   Did you ever go up there and shoot any goats?  A  No, that was alongside that, right above we went.  I  was over there once.  I shoot about seven goats there  one time.  Q  Shot seven goats, did you?  A  Yes. That was the last trip. The first time I was up  there and that was the last too.  Q   Did you know who was hunting up there?  A  Nobody that I know.  Q   Do you know Thomas Campbell?  A  Thomas Campbell was up to that Maxhlalaxuut.  Gwinwijix  they call it too.  Q  Was he hunting or trapping up there?  A  Oh, trapping.  Just the winter time when he is around.  Q   I think you know what the meaning of Kisgagas is? 1-58  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Kisgagas .  Q  Can you tell us what Kisgagas means in English?  A  That was -- that was seagull.  Seagull is fooling around  to Kisgagas in the summer time because there's lot of  people in canyon, cleaning fish around there, and all  the guts from the fish is floated down there and there  comes those, they're picking this up.  That's why they  call gaga'a.  Q  And it means Seagull, does it?  A  Yes.  Q   David, you told us this morning I think about the Stikine  people and about a battle with the Stikines?  A  Yes.  Q  Now. this was a battle that 'Niikyap had with the Stikine  A  Yes.  Q  Do you want to tell us about that battle?  A  Oh yes, The reason why they start -- that battle started  the Stikine used to come around to the head of the Skeena  and around to Thutade    Q   Thutade.  A     and they still keep on moving in, and when somebody  going out from Kisgagas, they disappeared.  They killed  them up there. So ones from Galdo'o, they get killed  up there too, up the head of the Thomson River.  They  still doing that.  Finally, the old man get mad about it and was being  talking to the rest of the people that good fighters, to  get after them and take it over, what they're going to  do. That's why they started. They went up there after  they get that -- I can't remember all the names -- I  know one man from Kispiox.  He's the meanest man of the  whole bunch.  That was Gutgwinuxs.  Q   Gutgwinuxs?  A  Yes. Big owl.  Q   It means big owl, does it?  A  Yes.  Q   Yes?  A  And some of them -- now I don't know -- I think that's  only one from Kispiox.  And Old Galdo'o was there and  the old man picking up those Tsimt'ax, that's bad fight.  Dimguus.  That's what I forget about right now.  There's  quite a few of them all right, but I forgot their names.  They started all right.  They're going up there, they  all agree to fight with the old man, so they went up.  They start fighting this kind of marten, they call it  hlgutk'ihlxwmhaat.  That's the marten with the young  little baby martens.  They can't eat them yet.  To take 1-59  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  that little marten alive, who is the meanest one to get  it down to the ground.  They tried, every one of them.  Finally, Gutgwinuxs went up there again.  He took  that marten and he took it down to the ground.  He only  grab it once. That's another thing where I'm stuck about  that.  They were travelling and that was a dark time, when  they get under the big tree and the man was robbed under  the big tree where they're going to bed down at night  time.  They didn't start any fire and anybody don't like  to know anything about them, just sneaking around.  That  night they heard something, boom, something coming down.  So some time, there it goes again, boom again.  Keep  on. The daylight comes and there's some kind of thing  was up on that -- on the limb up there, seems to be like  a man taking a big shit, come down and hit the ground,  just like that. He took his hand and wiped his ass with  his hand.  I got nothing, they didn't even know what it is  but the old man sent anybody to get that down.  Every  one had a bad accident going up there.  No, they're scare  They're scared to do anything about it. They try to  go up anyway but they always give up and come down again.  There goes Gutgwinuxs going behind the tree and  going, and he was up above and standing there, he's seen  him.  Finally, give him a kick and there he goes, down.  Going down and landed on the ground.  All he thinks,  he's just moving around, still keep on moving around.  The old man said that was Niits'ap'mlaxgan, that means  old man is free.  does it mean?  home in a tree,  in a tree?  They haven't got no names for that, that's why  call it home on a tree,  on a tree?  That's all that shadow in the lake, so all that  is already here.  Q  What happened after that? Where did 'Niikyap go after  that?  A  After that? He still keep on going until they get to  that little lake I was telling about before.  About that  Ganootsenex.  Those three in the lake.  Q  Shadow on the lake?  A  Yes.  They find that place where the Stikine is but there  was on a kind of a humpy, lumpy ground, and they got  the smoke, runs out of that. They knows they can't even  think about it. There was something about it, they claim  if they return and come back on the way down, that's  Q  What  A  His :  Q  Home  A  Yes.  they  Q  Home  A  Yes. 1-60  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  bad luck. So the old man decide it was just as well,  just straight home, go home for this time and we'll see  about it, start over again.  We might be lucky for the  next time.  They they did go home all right, all come  back.  Q  Did they go home?  A  Oh yes. They go home to Kisgagas, because they can't  even return again. Promise everyone of them with them  that they go back next year.  Next year, they come along  to come again.  They still keep on going and going, they  didn't find anything at all. Still keep on going.  While  they still keep on travelling there comes the grizzly  crossing ahead of them.  Now, there you are, that's what  we looking for. That's what we're looking for. Go ahead  catch him and, of course, his nephew just go after that  grizzly and kill him. Killed the grizzly and the old  man tell him how to do, skin it, and don't leave any  fat on the skin. Clean it right out nicely.  They did too. They cleaned that and he said to  scratch it and scrape the grease out of it. Really clean  it up nice, no grease, and they did too.  They sent some  of the boys go out and pick up some pitch.  Pick up some  pitch, as much as you can get. Do all you can do to  collect that pitch. The boys go outside collecting the  pitch from the trees, and they take it and plant it right  on the outside part of the skin.  Q  They put it on the outside of the skin?  A  Yes.  They keep on doing that and they take their regular  sand, not muck at all, just regular sand.  That's what  they get.  Take it and plant it right on. And they hang  that up. They shoot it, they shoot that for the arrow.  Anything in place where the arrow goes through, they  pitch it up again and more, more sand.  But there's one young man, big strong fellow, he  always do exercising with that skin, running around.  Running like a grizzly, rolling, anything, jumping.  That's all he does.  By the time they get all the arrows where they shoot  the skin, the just fall back and eat those spurs.  Got  bad spurs, just come back again. They can't even use  them  ....  Q  You're talking about the spears?  A  Yes. That's quite okay.  They would pack that grizzly  skin. They keep on travelling until they get to where  that smoke on the ground.  They camp on the ground.  They was watching it and there's a woman coming out from  that humpy place where the camp is.  She seems to be  picking up something outside, for the fire. That grizzly 1-61  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  he comes out, she stop doing and went back to tell the  people on the ground, the grizzly.  There comes the man.  Everybody jumps right out and they go after the grizzly.  There goes the grizzly running, and the little growing  like that, and the little creek get it deep and deeper  and deeper.  The grizzly going down, they shoot him. They shoot  the grizzly and that's under, pretending, biting his  side.  Take that spears and hit him by the spears, same  thing.  Sometimes get back to get after him, shooting  and spearing, and keep on moving it. Every one of those  people get after him. They're going down and there goes  man up there, all lined up and ready to shoot. They start  shooting there, the front and they try to go back and  run away. They shoot the arrow.  They knows that was  a trap for them.  They try to make it up but, no, they  up there and they start shooting too, and the arrows  start going like that for them.  Clean them right out.  Not even one of them left, No man, just womans left  on the ground.  That's what's left, and the kids.  They start killing those womans and those kids,  start killing them, and there's a young -- very young  woman, who is all dressed up.  His clothes was being  made out of cariboo hide and it's all decorated.  That's  the one. And the other fellow just take his arrows and  get him right there, and kill him. Kill her.  There  goes another one.  The sister.  They're both the same,  the same clothes.  They both the same clothes as that.  The fellows going to gave her some of those arrow too,  but the old man spotted, hey, leave her alone, that's  mine.  And the fellow just dropped the arrow, and the  old man comes along and grabbed her, grabbed her  hand, and led her away, tell her to sit down.  MR. RUSH:  David, can I just stop you there for just a second  while we change the tape?  THE WITNESS:  Go ahead.  MR. RUSH:  Let us pause for a moment.  THE WITNESS:  All right.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Start again, David. What did 'Niikyap do then?  A  Sit down, telling her that they're putting up that kind  of fighting. On account there's too many dead people  from Kisgagas and Galdo'o.  So, she told her, you had  better go in and take more clothes you want to wear when  you get home, and then think what you really like. Eat 1-62  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  for, everything what you ha$e in your house. You better  take it up and get it all in a bunch.  I'll take the  two young man to take you along the way home.  I forget  that.  Q  What did the two young men do? Did they take her?  A   I didn't finish yet.  The woman, the young lady gone  in and pick up all the clothes she wants to take, and  pile it up outside. Take some kind of meat, like she  got and pile it outside.  Anything, what kind dried meat  she wanted, she piled it outside.  The old man would turn around and call the two young  man to take her. You better, I'll tell you this, what  to do.  Take this young lady back where she from, and  she'll tell you the river which is very danger for her.  And don't do anything wrong for her.  If she didn't even  make it home, I'll kill you two. I' 11 kill you next  year when I come back if this woman didn't make it home.  That means, kill you some place.  They did take that young ladyand they keep on.  They packed all those meat and all those clothes, which  ones she wants to take along, and take them right over  to the river. Don't know which river now it was, can't  tell you. When they got her over there, she said "That's  where I'm going".  SO all three to go, no danger.  They  helping her, they're putting, hang it up for her, clothes  The rest from the town too pack that for her.  They are those two of them get back quite okay,  the womans.  They reported it was just going very nice,  how they do. Things are all right  That's what they did.  They only take those packs and they hang it up and run  without anything.  And beat it right back to the village.  That's the place where that split bear we talking about.  Q  What happened with the split bear?  A  That's the one, they find split bear so when they get,  they look at these things, what they get in the camp,  and this split bear young -- the old cubs bear and he  open it up and hang it up. That's where the split bear  is. Well, that goes on the old man's list.  Q   Goes on the old man's?  A  List.  Q   Goes on the old man's list?  A  Yes. They all went home after that.  The next year they all come back again. When they  tell the young lady. They all come back and they get  outside and there's the arrows, and that kind of thing.  They got those heavy post centred outside, and they got  everything hanging up there, even those -- even those  knives and those arrows, everything, the axe. They all 1-63  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  leave them outside.  I don't know what they use for cooking anyway.  That's the time they seen those moose hide.  Those  moose hide, cariboo, bear skin, all of those ground hog  skin. Any kind of skin.  They're all hanging up  outside  That means they skinning for the dirty work.  Q   For the what?  A   For the dirty work.  Q   For their dirty work?  A Yes. Killing people. And marking some kind of a pole,  and they centred like that, that's them. They go home.  No more, no more trouble.  That's what it means.  Q  Did the leaving of the skins and the moose hide and the  cariboo bring about the peace between the Gitksan and  the Stikine people?  A  The stick?  Q  No, Was there a peace? A peace settlement?  No war  between    A  No.  Q  Was that the end of the wars between Stikine    A  Yes, that's why they're giving all those hides, and thing  like that. When they got those painted pole like that,  and there's the other one, that means there will be  over there on that side, and there's the line right  there, and there's Hazelton, and Kispiox on that -- on  this side. No more war.  Q  Where was the place where the skins were left?  A   I don't know.  There's only one place.  They didn't even  tell me which place it was. One place supposed to be  that's from the head of the Stikine River and the Skeena.  Maybe that's what it is. Lake Thutade that goes from  Kisgagas.  That's the time they didn't come back to  Kisgagas after that war.  Q  Now, David, the battle with the stikine that you have  told us about, did this happen after 'Niikyap had moved  to Kisgagas?  A  That was -- no, that was -- maybe.  I don't know.  It  sounds like. It sounds like moving to Kisgagas on account  they taking up the Kisgagas people and that Galdo'o,  and the Kispiox.  That's why I know, that was already  up to Kisgagas at that time.  Q  Now, you said that 'Niikyap took with him up to fight  the Stikine, he took some people from Kispiox?  A  There's only one.  Q  Who Was that  A  That was Gutgwinuxs.  Q  And Was Gutgwinuxs, was he Lax Seel or was he Lax Gibuu? 1-64  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  He is come back to Kispiox after fighting.  Q   Yes, but what clan was he in? Was he Wolf?  A  That was Giskaast.  Q   That's Fireweed?  A  Yes.  Q   'Niikyap also had some people from Galdo'o, do you know  the names of any of the people he took with him from  Galdo'o?  A  That is what I forget. It was some -- Mary Mackenzie's  grandfather, I think.  I think that's what it is.  Q  Were the people that ,Niikyap took with him up to fight  the Stikine    A  That's right.  Q     who were from Galdo'o    A  Yes.  Q    were they Lax Seel or were they Lax Gibuu?  A  All mixed up. Look at Hlgutk'ihlxwmhaat is Lax Seel.  Q  What Was his name?  A  Hlgutk'ihlxwmhaat,  they call that marten with the baby  martens.  That was, oldest one I know is Andrew Crosby's  wife's family. Yes, that's right.  Q   So with Niikyap were Lax Gibuu?  A  Yes.  Q   Lax Seel?  A   'Niikyap?  Q  with 'Niikyap, who went up to fight the Stikine, were  other warriors who were Lax Seel?  A  The reason why they went up about that people, it was  Haimadimtxw and some family of Haimadimtxw go get killed  up there.  That's why they get made.  Q  David, do you know the name Siluuyee?  A  Who?  Q  Siluuyee.  A  Siluuyee?  Q   Yes.  A  Yes.  Q  Did siluuyee go with 'Niikyap to fight the Stikine?  A  Yes, that's all those, fast fighters.  Q  Fast fighters. Was Siluuyee -- what village was he from?  A  Kisgagas.  Q  Kisgagas?  A  Yes.  Q   Do you know of another fighter by the name of Dimguus?  A  Dimguus, that was Lax Gibuu.  Q  Where Was he from?  A  That was Kisgagas too.  Q   Do you know of another fighter by the name of Suwiiguus? 1-65  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   Suwiiguus?  Q   Yes.  A   What was Galdo'o.  Q   He Was from Galdo'o?  A   Yes.  Q   Was he Lax Gibuu?  A   Sounds like it. Yes.  It sounds like it. Suwiiguusganaaw'  that means the father was a Frog.  Q   Let me ask you, do you remember if there was another  person that went with 'Niikyap by the name of 'Naxteext?  A    'Naxteext?  Q   Yes.  A   Yes.  Q    Did he go too?  A   Yes.  Q   What Clan Was he from?  A   Kisgagas.  Q   He's from Kisgagas?  A   Yes.  Q   Was he Lax Gibuu from Kisgagas?  A   Lax Gibuu.  Q   You tOld Us about the marten that 'Niikyap found on the  way up to fight the Stikine, and the little marten.  A   Yes.  Q   You Said it Was Gutgwinuxs who was able to get the marten  out of the tree?  A   He's one get it down.  Q   Before he was able to do that, did others of the fighters  try to get the warrior down? Or, the marten down?  A   They tried to but when the marten bite them they let it g  Q    They couldn't do it?  A   Yes. But Gutgwinuxs grab him behind the neck, right there  and hold it steady until they get it down.  Q   What did they do with the marten when they got it down?  A   Let it go.  Q   Now you told us about the    A   But the name of the marten is, there's somebody take  it as a name.  Q   Yes. What was the name, do you know?  A   Hlgutk'ihlxwmhaat.  Q    One Of the Warriors Who Was there tOok it as a name,  did they?  One of the fighters who were with 'Niikyap,  did they take the name of the marten?  A   No.  Q   When did the name Of the marten -- When Was that given?  A   It is given to that fellow who got it down.  Q    I see. Who was the man that wore the grizzly skin?  Who  was the fellow that wore grizzly skin to draW the Stikine 1-65A  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  people out of their home underground?  A  That's the one I don't know who, which one. Only picking  up big strong man, that's what they say, to handle that  heavy skin, with the sand right between the hairs. It  was very heavy. But it still can jump around with that,  just like a grizzly. They didn't even know the name  for that.  Q  When this man wore the grizzly skin    A  Yes.  Q    and he was chased by the Stikines down a little  draw   A  Yes.  Q    there they shot their arrows and threw their spears  at him?  A  Yes. It was too late for them.  Q   It was too late for them?  A  Yes. When they start shooting both sides of that draw.  Q  Because the Gitksan was on the top side of the cliff  on the draw?  A  Yes.  Q  And they shot down at the Stikine as they were drawn in?  A  Yes.  Q   It was then they found it was a trap for them?  A  Yes.  Q  When the two young men came back from taking the young  girl across this dangerous river, is that the time they  cut the bear skin in half? Is that when they did that?  A  Maybe. I -- maybe sounds like that, after they through  using that skin and that skin was laying right there,  and then 'Niikyap just grabbed the noose of that bear,  and drag it up like that, it's going to be mine. The  other guy jumps up and he said, no, that's mine. That's  why Gutgwinuxs take his knife and cut it in half. That's  the good way.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  David, who was it that took his knife and cut the skin  in half?  A  Gutgwinuxs. He's bad actor.  Q  He's a bad actor, is he?  A  Yes.  Q  David, the next year when 'Niikyap came back to the same  place    A  Yes.  Q    and you say that he found arrows, and spears, and 1-66  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  knives sticking in the post    A Yes.  Q    what was that a sign of? What did that mean?  A that means, just like, just keep it for them for that  bad treatment they gave to the people from Kisgagas.  That's paid back to them and the land.  Q  So the land Was paid back to them, was it?  A Yes.  Q And did this become their land again?  A Yes.  They didn't get that land no more after that.  Given by Kisgagas people.  Q  Whose land Was it then?  A  The people from the land right now.  Still the same thin(  Q  still the same people?  A Yes.  Has the land claims, that's the way it is now.  Q Now, you talked about Mary Mackenzie a minute ago, what  clan is is from?  Is she Lax Gibuu?  A Yes.  Q What village is she from?  A Up to Galdo'o.  Q  You mentioned Mary Mackenzie's grand-dad?  A What's that?  Q Mary Mackenzie's grandpa, you said? Do you remember  his name?  A  that's what I forget.  Q  Now, David, I just wanted to ask you about the territory  around the big meadow. I think the name of that,  Maxhlalaxuut?  A Maxhlalaxuut.  Q  Is that territory today in the House of 'Niikyap?  A  That's right.  Q  That belongs to the house does it?  A Yes.  Q We also talked yesterday about the territory that we  called   or you called Gwit ts'ilaasxwt?  A Gwit ts'ilaasxwt, yes, that was.  Q  Now, is that also the territory that belongs to the House  of 'Niikyap?  A That's the regular place, yes.  Q You talked yesterday about Joshua McLean?  A Yes.  Q  What's Joshua's Gitksan name?  A Gitksan? He's the one, O'yee.  Q He's O'yee?  A Yes.  Q He sits at your table with you, does he?  A  yes. 1-67  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   Did O'yee or any of your other nephews use  Gwit ts'ilaasxwt to hunt or to trap in?  A  They try to go on there but they didn't even go very  much for that. That place, the one I was talking about,  about 15 mile I said.  Q   Yes.  A  It's a nice place for martens, that 'Niit'eekxwt, but  they didn't even go there.  I don't know, I asked them  about it. They move a little way away from Kisgagas.  Q  Where Was it?  A  The little route around Kisgagas, that's where they trap  around.  Q  Who trapped there?  A   Joshua and Billy.  Q  Who's Billy?  A  Billy McLean.  Q   Is that Joshua's brother?  A  Yes, that's right. And Thomas was going up there but  I don' t know what Thomas would be doing.  Q   Thomas McLean Went there too?  A  Oh yes.  Q   Is he from the House of 'Niikyap?  A  Oh yes, they all brothers.  Their sisters all died off.  Q  Now, you mentioned yesterday about William Jackson;  do you remember  talking about William Jackson?  A  Yes.  Q   You Said that he USed part of 'Niikyap's territory?  A  On account of his wife, that's why.  The old 'Niikyap  told her to take William Jackson and trap around to his  place, up to -- what you call it? I forget. I mentioned  about it yesterday but -- oh yes -- Xsuwilakansamaa.  That's right.  Got too many.  I haven,t got enough brain  maybe, don' t keep them all.  Q  Mow, william Jackson, did he also fish at  Gwit ts'ilaasxwt?  Did he fish there at that fishing  site?  A  No.  Q  No, he didn't?  A  No.  He has got his own trapline up to -- what they call  -- Gwogoot. This is Gwogoot Lake this one and that is  right there, that creek, just like heart.  Q   Like a heart?  A  Yes.  Little Mountain Lake, that's why they call it.  Q  Okay.  A  That is his trapline.  And the other side, on this side,  this belongs to those people up the Babine and this side,  this belong to Jackson.  Q  All right. Now you said that William Jackson married 1-68  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  a Lax Gibuu?  A   Yes, that's right.  Q   Did she die or did they divorce?  A   Can't help it, got to die.  Q   Who did he marry after that?  A   Nobody.  Q   Was he related to Melulek?  A   You mean Jackson's wife?  Q   Yes.  A   No. Still on 'Niikyap's side.  Q   I see.  That woman.  That's why 'Niikyap tell that, tell that  Ellen and Jackson and trap around his place for a while.  Q   What Was Ellen's name?  A   Ellen?  Q   Ellen.  A   That is What I forgot.  I think that was -- I think that  was Laxhlpin.  Q    Laxhlpin?  A   Yes. They got a lot of names too but I can't remember  which one.  Ellen who died, maybe that's why they call  it Ellen.  I was talking about Jackson's wife.  Q    David, can you tell me how long has 'Niikyap lived at  Kisgagas?  How far back?  Do you know?  A   What do you say?  Q    'Niikyap is from Kisgagas?  A   That's right.  Q   How long did 'Niikyap live at Kisgagas?  How many  generations?  A   Can't tell you. After they moved in from Gitangasx  you're talking abOut?  AbOut three or four of those,  my grandfathers, that's all. That's what I think,  Q   David, you gave me Ellen's Gitksan name, and that's Ellen  McLean, isn't it?  A   Yes, Ellen McLean.  Q   Who is she related to?  A   Ellen?  Q   Yes.  A   That's Tsimganootsenex.  Q   Related to 'Niikyap?  A   Yes.  Q   Was her father s name Thomas?  A   Yes, Thomas McLean.  Q   Now, you told us yesterday about your names; you told  US that you presently hold the name Muut and 'Niikyap at  the same time?  A   That's right.  Same time Muut get his name, be Chief Muut 1-69  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  but my mother don't like it, so I told, you can double  it up.  I did try and double it up. I was all ready  to double it up but when I was standing up that time  I saw Alex was standing alongside me and it's got nothing  to do, I've got no money at all.  So I told him, you  just take that Muut, I'll take the money. Well, "I  haven' t got the money. " "I'm going to float you the  name as Muut. That's what I do for you. " On account  of that, my mother will be happy, I'll take her name  as 'Niikyap.  Q   You tOok the name 'Niikyap and Alex took the name Muut  because you floated it to him?  A  Yes.  Q   David, When Was that? Do you remember about what time  that was? What year that was?  A  The time when I put Muut on Alex?  0   Yes.  A  Gee, I forgot.  Just about the time, Alex died about  three or four years ago.  Q  about three Or four years ago you remember    A  And my brother, Charlie, died at the same time. I took  it again.  Q  Did you have a feast when that happened?  A  Oh yes.  Q  You put up a feast then, did you?  A  Yes.  Q  Can you tell me who was invited to that feast? Who did  you invite to the feast then three or four years ago?  A  Kispiox.  Kitwancool.  Kitwanga.  Skeena Crossing.  Glen  Vowell.  All around here came over, came down here, which  want to join the feast.  Q  Did you speak at the feast?  A  Eh?  Q  Did 'Niikyap speak at this feast?  A  He,s got to.  I didn't even speak on account of my throat  I finished two of them that time. My brother, Charlie,  the same thing.  They haven't got any money too either  but I took the funeral again.  Q  Can you tell me, do you remember how much money you put  up at that feast?  A  There's about almost thousand dollars for Alex. Over  thousand dollars for Charlie. Almost thousand dollars  for each one of them.  Q  Did you put up some groceries as well?  A  Oh yes, anything good enough for anybody.  Q   Do you remember how much altogether you spent on this  feast? That is    A  That is what I mean, way over. Way over thousand dollars 1-70  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  each.  Thousand dollars each.  Q    That Was Cash money?  A   Yes.  Q   But how much Was the Value Of all the Other things you  gave at that feast?  Do you remember how much everything  cost you in addition to the cash money?  A   I said it's over thousand dollars for each time.  Q   Okay.  A    I put up over thousand dollars for Alex death.  That  is Muut.  Q   Okay.  A   And when Charlie's died, it is again, everybody was right  on me, when you start that much for two days.  Q    Did Mary Mackenzie speak for you there?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you remember what she talked about?  i   What did she talk about?  Q   Yes.  Do you remember what Mary said at your feast?  A   Lot of talking.  Q    Lot's of talking?  A   Yes.  Lot of talking.  Happy for everything, how I do  it.  I finish on my table.  Q   Okay.  Where did you hold the feast?  A   That's right in Hazelton.  Q    it the Gitanmaax Hall?  A   Yes.  Q   David, in your house is there such a thing as a claw  name?  MR. PLANT: A Claw name?  THE WITNESS:  I don't know.  BY MR . RUSH:  Q    Do you understand me? Like a grizzly claw?  A   Claw?  Q   Yes. Is there a name in your house like that?  A   That 's, you mean Haagapgansxw maybe?  Q   Haagapgansxw.  A   The claw is what they call it. That was some kind of  -- I don't know what I say about that.  Just claw.  Q    Is there a name in your -- sorry?  Grizzly, when they got the tree any place where they're  at, they're stnading around scraping it.  With the claw.  Q   Is this a name in the House of 'Niikyap?  A   That's right.  Q   Now, do you hold that name yourself?  A   Yes, I should have. I was thinking about I am going  to use it sometimes.  Sometime I might claw your face,  you sitting eat, things like that.  That's claw. 1-71  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   Do you presently hold the name yourself?  A   That's right, yes.  Q   Is this a halayt name?  A   Yes, that's halayt.  About that halayt and the same thing  as Laxnox.  Q   Noxnox?  A   Yes, same noxnox.  MR. RUSH: Maybe we can talk about that tomorrow.  THE WITNESS: Yes.  MR. RUSH: It's three-thirty now.  THE WITNESS: Yes.  MR. RUSH: We'll take a break for the rest of the day.  THE WITNESS:  Good enough.  MR. RUSH: Can we come back tomorrow at nine-thirty?  THE WITNESS:  It will be okay.  MR. RUSH: We'll be back here then.    PROCEEDINGS ATJOURNED AT 3.30 p.m.  TO BE RESUMED AT 9.30 a.m. , 1 MARCH, 1986  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  Veronica Harper (Ms)  official Court Reporter,  VH:Mar.22/86 B.C.S,R.A. #263  TRANSCRIPT CONTINUES ON PAGE 1-72 1-72  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  DAVID GUNANOOT, A Witness called  on behalf of the Plaintiffs,  duly affirmed, testifies as follows  RALPH MICHELL,  Gitksan Interpreter,  Affirmed.    UPON COMMENCING AT 9.30 a.m., 1 March, 198 6  MR. RUSH: We'll start again today, David.  It's March 1st and  we are on the third day of your Commission Evidence,  so I am going to ask you some more questions.  We'll  go until 12 o'clock today.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH (contd)  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  was  who  'Niist. That was some kind  is he?  Now, you were telling us about Skawil's territory?  Skawil?  You were telling us about where Skawil's territory  located and I wanted to ask you if you can tell us  owns the territory east of Skawil's territory?  It was east, -- belongs to  of -- Charlie Sampson.  Charlie Sampson is 'Niist,  'Niist, yes.  Okay.  And Shanoss.  Alfred Shanoss?  Yes, Alfred Shanoss.  Now, you were also telling us about Awiijii Peak.  Awiijii Peak?  And you were telling us about  Mountain;  I want to ask you,  for Awiijii Peak?  That was Stikine.  In our language is different.  Awiijii  Peak, that was Anbaxgitwink. Awiijii is when a kid has  been whistling with the chips of the mountain goat, and  every time he whistles up like that, and the mountain  goes up, whistle again, and the mountain goes up again,  little  higher. That's why they call it Anbaxgitwink.  Ambaxgitwink?  Yes.  Now, Who  that you  Treaty?  Skawil Creek and Skawil  is there a Gitksan name  OWned the  used over  That was,  trapline that you used? The trapline  by Treaty Creek?  belongs to -- it belongs to Stikine  first but William Scott register that.  And the old man  Skawil  didn't even know what register is so he didn't 1-73  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  even register.  But William Scott knows about register.  The first time when it starts, registering the ground,  so William Scott register that valley.  After that, I was playing around with the old man  Skawil, before that I did.  Before I get that. He was  kind of mean on me.  I don't know why.  Trapping too  much with me. Didn't even keep him to his trapping.  All around to that Awiijii.  It belongs to Stikine,  Awiijii.  Started from around Stikine, Meziaden Lake,  going up that way.    OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  David, the trapline -- before William Scott registered  the trapline, that area, that territory belonged to the  Stikine, did it?  A  That's right.  Q   That territory, is that west of the Bell Irving?  A  Yes, but its, all goes to Skawil's territory, why they  left Awiijii and they leaved that valley too for Skawil.  Q   They left    A  After that comes William Scott register.  Q   I see.  A  After that, Old Skawil register Awiijii too.  It's up  to the mouth of the Salmon River.  That's where the line  is, between them, Stikine and Skawil.  Q   That's the mouth Of the Salmon River?  A  Yes.  Up towards the nine cabin.  Q   That's the ninth Cabin On the telegraph trail?  A  Yes.  Q  Now, the place where you trapped, after you got the  trapping territory from William Scott    A  That's right.  Q    is Treaty Creek in that area?  A  That's it. That's the old valley, Treaty Creek.  Q  What's the name for Treaty Creek?  Is there one?  A   I've forgotten the name.  Q  Do you remember you were telling us about Hodder Creek?  A  Hodder?  Q   Yes.  A   It was the man own that.  Full table down there. Get  about three full tables.  His name was Jim Hodder.  Q   He had    A  He just coming in, after the old man Skawil register  the whole valley up to about Awiijii, and Hodder registers  that.  They didn't even, he maybe knows, but he wasn't 1-74  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  -- he wants to smart-out the old man. When he gets there  and the old man finds -- the old man was paying, the  old man find that -- what's his name again? Oh yes,  Hodder was up there, he said these are my ground, this  is my trapline, and way up there by Owl Creek, that's  as far as I go.  Those guys were having their trouble until they  get in.  They said could have it, told Indian Agent about  it, and the old man talked to the Indian Agent about it  and the Indian Agent looks at the map and Skawil was  right, already registered by his name. They moved the  line up to the Owl Creek. That's why they call that  Hodder cReek.  Q  What's the Gitksan name for Hodder Creek?  A  Hodder Creek? I don't know what is called. Just that  lake, that's not a lake, that T'aabeek'xwt t'ax.  Q  What's the Gitksan Same for Hodder Lake?  A  T'aabeek'xwt t'ax.  Kind of hard.  Q   That's a hard One!  A  Yes. That was a round lake.  e   Now, is there a name for Bowser Lake?  A  Bowser Lake is Suutsiiadit.  Q  Say it again?  A  Suutsiiadit.  Call it Suutsiiadit. Call it Susie!  Q  Call it Susie! Now, you hunted in this area as well?  You hunted up in Skawil's territory and over where you  trapped?  A  Yes.  Q  Now, Can you tell us what did you hunt for?  A  Beavers.  Any kind of thing. Marten.  Fisher.  Fox.  Anything.  Will bring in mountain goat. Moose.  Everything killed around the lake. Black bear.  Quite a bit.  Q   Yes.  A  Any kind of game around there.  Q  Was the game plentiful?  A  Eh?  Q  Was there lots of game?  A  Oh, plenty. Plenty around there.  But the German guys  spoiled the wolverine around there.  Q   The German guys spoiled the wolverine?  A  Yes.  Q   How did he do that?  A  Killed them. Moose all over the place. One time he  kills the bull and four cow bulls and they say to him,  buddy, that's it, and reported to the police.  The police  goes up there and they found four moose was laying around  Four cow moose laying there. All taken in by the  wolverine, and after that they set all the traps there 1-75  GUNANOOT,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  D.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Good price  to come  to catch all the wolverines they could catch around there  Did they clean out the wolverine?  Yes, that's right.  Clean out the wolverine.  too at that time.  How many years did it take for the wolverine  back?  Still hardly any around.  David, When you trapped what kind of trap or snare did  you use up there?  Don,t use snares.  What kind Of trap did you use?  Number four traps Steelhouse, and some of them Victor.  Sargent number four, and number one. That's small, number  one.  Did't catch marten for that number. On the pole  set we call it. We cut off a pole and set it.  Set the  trap right there.  Did you set the trap in the tree?  Yes, on that pole, like that. Set the trap right there, ,  the marten goes up, catch it, catch it on the trap, drop  down and they can't  even climb up again because they're  frozen to that.  So the marten goes up the pole    Yes.  the pole is the trap?   and  Yes.  ind He's  Yes.  He's  Yes.  Then he freezes?  Yes.  He can't even  All right.  They used to set those  at the top of  caught in the trap and falls off of it?  Caught?  go  he is hanging down in the air.  traps on the ground  first by my  father catch something on a bough, on those limbs from  the trees, like that, and he set the trap right on top  of that, so he catch a marten and he dropped down between  those limbs, hangng down there.  Oh, that's easy to be  like that instead of setting it on the ground.  So when  they catch a marten on the ground, they're laying there  dead, there comes the moose and eat it up and chew the  holes right into the marten skins.  That WOUld ruin the fur?  Yes.  And the Skin?  Yes. That's Why they fOund it out, it  is very nice. So cut that pole and set  Like, this is the tree and get the pole  Was hanging down,  it alongside,  like that, and 1-76  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  rest it against the tree. When he caught the marten,  drops down and hanging down there.  He uses all that  any old time and there we are, we're watching him and  we using it too.  Quite a lot of people using that now.  Because it's the best.  Q   It's a good method of trapping?  A  Yes.  Q   David, I Want to ask you, when you went out on the  trapline, did you take any young people from your family  with you?  A  Oh yes.  Q  Who did you take out there?  A  He was with me once.  Q   Pointing over to Ralph there?  A  Yes.  Q   Ralph Michell?  A  Yes.  Q  Did you take him out when he was a young boy?  A  Oh yes.  Q  Did you show him what you did?  A  Oh yes.  He knows everything what I'm doing around there.  Even the beaver, under the ice we using those poles again  too.  With the thing hanging down right on the bottom.  On account of my father's idea again. Get a trap on  this pole here, and there he comes, the other pole is  like that, and just shakes this one and he raise the  trap like that, and there's that thing down right there  hanging down.  Q   It WOuld sink down, would it?  a   Yes.  SOme kind Of COttOnwood.  COttOnwood right on top  of that.  And , that was the baddest one, too cold  in the winter time.  Put your hand like that under the  icey water and measure how deep is under the ice. It's  got to be about  that much on top of theat trap. That  is  the  ....  Q  What did he have there?  A  SOme kind of would there, cottonwood.  Q   Yes.  A  He was looking for nice fresh wood like that.  Q  That was the bait for the beaver, was it?  A  Yes.  When he gets the beaver on that rock, they laugh  and hold him down.  Can't even swim up.  I didn't make  that, didn't make it very much.  Too cold.  Frozen every  time.  You do something about the trap.  Q   It was hard to use that method in the cold, was it?  A  Yes.  Q  David,  how did you get around on the trapline?  How did 1-77  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  you walk around on the trapline?  A    I'm not flying around!  Q   No, you re not flying around!  A   Walking.  Q    Did you snow-shoe?  A   Yes. After the snow, yes.  Q   Yes.  A   Summer time still walks.  Q   Was it easier to do in the winter time?  A   Pretty heavy too but we got to do it. If you put on  the shoe and walk in the soft snow.  It's all stuck on  your snow-shoes, pretty heavy.  Q   Yes.  A   Sometimes pretty nice dried snow, sometimes goes up to  your waist down there.  There's another time.  Q    I want to ask you about something different now. I want  to ask you about Stekyoodenhl?  A   Stekyoodenhl.  Q   Rocher Deboule. Can you tell us how Stekyoodenhl got  it's name?  A   Stekyoodenhl, crazy young people.  They're shooting goats  up there.  When they get the goats down, they butcher  the goats and roast those ribs against the fire.  After  they cook, they start eating it and save those ribs bones  for wiping their ass.  They still keep on doing that.  Take that little calf and put it right in the fire.  There goes the little calf, it was fire there, threw  the wind at, jumps right over there, still keep on, and  there goes the kind of ... .  Q   What did they throw into the fire?  A   Yes.  Q   What did they throw into    A   The little calf.  Q    Little cap?  A   Yes.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Calf?  Little Calf?  A   Yes.  They still keep on doing that but the other kids  was kind of wise, being warned by the grandmother telling  him not to laugh at anything, or any kind of game. So  the kid grabbed this little mountain goat and put the  paint, the brown rock and paint him on the side, put  that big brown paint right under there. He took him  on the slide, let it go, drop it down, there goes that  little goat goes up the mountain. 1-78  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  The other day, there comes the young people.  They  get that mountain goat skin on their back. They will  be laying around. Those people walking around inviting  the people at the village who wants to go with them and  spend the night around there, some kind of big feast  for them.  They sent them into the house and gave them some  kind of fish, gave them some kind of fish but those young  People with those mountain goat hide, was being sitting  there, they don t want to eat that.  They were mad.  They're all ready to change what they given and they  gave some kind of berries which was picked out, like,  last summer.  They give it to them.  They got a big dish  like got the berries in there, and there's the spoon  made by the some kind mountain goat horns, that's what  it made from. They give it to them.  The other fellow  take the spoon, fill it up with the berries and ate it.  They tasted and they say that the young fellow's tongue  is kind of black, coloured black on account of that  berries.  Q   His tongue?  A  Yes. They still eating it, quit it and they all go out  and walking around, outside the front of the houses and  they're saying that, those young fellows saying nice  spot for the nice green grass right there. Sit down,  laying down.  Laying down.  Yonder big girl was standing  around close to them friendly like.  Friendly like with  those young people. That's how she acted. She seen  those young people eating the green grass. They didn't  even know what it is, and they don't want to eat that  fish. It seemed funny to her. She still keep watching  it.  Finally, she take off and go back to grandmother  and tell the grandmother about, you know those guys coming  in, inviting us to go up to the feast, they laying down  on the grass up there after they don't wants to eat that  fish, they eat that grass.  The grandmother said, shut  up, be quiet, don't talk about that. They might hear  what you said.  The young girl was just forgot about  it because at the same time they didn't bother about  it.  But when those people from the village all got up  they didn't even see the mountain, where those mountain  goats came from.  It's nothing but a big level place.  They're still keeping on playing on the way going through  going to the feast. They get there and there's the big  house, no rocks, no nothing, and they all sitting right 1-79  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  inside, and they get to think what they want, anything  to eat. That was, and they eat it all right.  They didn't  even know what they eat.  But at the same time, finally, at the end of that  is nothing but leaves what they eat. They ate the leaves  whatever given to them. It looks like fish for them.  While late at night, the time to close the house and  go home, and the head man in to the feast hollered and  said . . . Hee, hee, selaksisimee. That means build the  fire.  Q  That means build the fire?  A  Yes, selaksisimee.  One of them, the first man goes out  -- boom,  boom, boom. Every time somebody goes out the  door there goes the boom, boom, boom. They didn't even  know what is that noise for.  One of them goes out, there  it goes, boom, boom, again. Everybody goes and that  little goat got paint on the side, he holds his friend,  he holds his friend, standing against her every time.  His friend told him, you sleep with me, you better sleep '  with me tonight, go home tomorrow. Didn't even know  anything.  Just standing at level place, how he swings himself  but he is stuck and his friend said, you had better sleep  against a post, sleep against a post.  I'll be sleeping  in front of you. He did, the fellow go down and laying  down against the post. He didn't even know what he is  doing. Finally, he find something what to say. Hey,  I want to pee. You want to pee? Pee against the post.  That's what we usually do around here. So the fellow  pee against the post and lay down again and went to sleep,  nice soft bed.  At the same time, in the morning time, they said  just turn around, and he see red down there.  He see  right into that big mountain there, and he can't even  do anything. His partner told him, you had better try  and get down.  Try and get down there. That fellow  slipped against the rock and he standing and he can't  even move, it's too steep to stand around.  Finally, can't you walk, can't you jump down.  No,  I can't, and he  scared to jump.  So the young fellow  take his shoes off, here, put on my shoes and the fellow  put his feet in shoes and sit on that rock again. He  feel his feet was sinking into the rock.  He take another'  one and he gave it to him again, that will be two, that  will be another shoe. He put his feet in there but he  still scared to jump. The young fellow still telling  him, you beter jump on that little hump there.  They  were telling him to jump. You say wilsamoosxw. 1-80  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  Again?  A  You say wilsamoosxw.  Q  Wilsamoosxw?  A  Yes.  Q  What does that mean?  A  That means, wilsamoosxw,  just like that, on the rock,  that little thing was there.  Again the fellow watching  that, wilsamoosxw over there, that little hump of rock.  When he jumps he thinks about that wilsamoosxw, he jumps  right on there and there he goes, his feet right into  that rock again.  About a foot deep into that rock.  Jump again, still the same thing. Every time he jumps  he think about wilsamoosxw.  Every time he jumps, the  same thing.  I forget to tell about that thing, when you get  down there, take my shoes off and put it right into a  hiding, all in front of the bigger rock, and take the  big flat rock and cover it up with that.  Cover that  up with the other rock and you can walk home.  MR. RUSH:  David, can you just stop here for a minute while  we change the tape?  THE WITNESS:  Good enough.  MR. RUSH:  Thank yo.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  THE WITNESS:  Son of him goes in that house, when the singing  and talking about the crow will eat their eyes out.  Down at that time, when they were down to that young  fellow after they get to father's place, they seen the  people laying down. They haven't got no eyes and all  days those been laying around, that was the crow and  raven, that's them taking the eyes out. There still  some now, when they get in a kind of thing they take  the eyes out. In fish, the same thing. They like the  eyes.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  What happened when that little boy got back to the camp?  A  That's what I was still on right now. Following, watching  people, there are all the eyes eaton out by the crow.  They will keep on going until they get back to the  village. They start telling the story, what he seen  and what they do, all the rest of the people. That's  the time the old grandmother say, see what I have been  telling you about, that's why I don't want you to say  anything about what you seen about eating the green grass  Now, that, s the end of the old woman's story. 1-81  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Why do they call the mountain Stekyoodenhl?  A  Black of those people when they landed on there and been  cut by the rock, and they paint the rest of the rock.  Just like paint, Stekoodenhl.  That's what it means.  Yaga ts'ak ts'oogoosxw hla ihlee'edit.  Q  Say that again?  A  Yaga ts'ak ts'oogoosxw hla ihlee'edit.  Q  What does that mean in English?  A  That means blood of the people that was being painting  and sleeping against, run the rocks on the slide.  Q  Does it mean the blood of the people painted the rocks  on the slide?  A  Yes.  Q  Gitsegyukla,  the Village of Gitsegyukla    A  Yes, Gitsegyukla.  Q  Where does the name COme from? Does it COme from the  same story?  A  Well, that's them. The Gitsegyukla,  that's the way it  '  sounds.  Just like, 'niin gya segyuuksda. Gitsegyukla,  that means fish jump.  Q  That means "did you ever see them jump"?  A  Yes.  Q   I jUst Want to ask you a couple of more questions about  what you have just told us.  When the little boy slept  with the goat and he woke up the next morning, what did  he see around him? I didn't quite understand what he  saw?  A  That's what I said there, that all he knows, that he  sing to that, into the steep mountainside and he can't  even move.  Q  He was looking down a steep mountainside?  A  Yes.  He can't even move until he jumps, wilsamoosxw.  Q  When the little goat gave him some shoes, what kind of  shoes were they?  A  Those were his own shoes.  Q  what kind of shoes were they?  A  They were mountain goat.  Q  Was the mountain goat -- were the hooves of the mountain  goat?  A  It's the hooves but it looks like shoes for that young  fellow.  Q  When the young boy called out wilsamoosxw    A  Every time he jumps.  Q   Every  time he jumps.  Can you tell us again what that  meant  and what would happen when he said that?  Tell  US what that means again?  A  That means he got to jump and land right into that bumpy 1-82  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  little rock there. Every time he jumps, he feels his  feet was about foot deep into the rock. Every time he  jumps, can't slip. He still keep on jumping until he  got to the steepest part and walk right out. That's  what I mean. Catched those shoes.  Q  Was he the only person that came back from the mountain?  A  Yes.  Q  What happened to all the other people?  A  They all down at the slide, the bodies.  Q  They all came down with the slide?  A  Yes, and their blood was on those rocks  Yaga ts'ak ts'oogoosxw hla ihlee'edit.  means.  Q  Would you repeat that again?  What did you just say?  A  Yaga ts'ak ts'oogoosxw hla ihlee'edit.  . That's  That's what  it    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  .ittle bit about your  got the name 'Niikyap.  I WOUld like to ask  .f Clan, did you per-  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Now, David, yesterday you told us a bit about your feasts  A  What?  Q   Your feast?  I want to ask you a 1:  feast again.  Okay? Now, when you  A  Oh.  Q   The feast at that time.  Now, What  you is, at a feast held by the Woll  form a laxnox?  A   laxnox you mean?  Q   Yes.  A  Yes.  Q   Did you perform a laxnox yourself?  A  Eh?  Q   Did you do a laxnox?  A  Oh yes. You got to do that.  Q   Can you tell us how you did your laxnox?  A  How I did?  Q  How did you do that?  A  That's too many of those kind of 1;  did one for him. That's one of my  first laxnox I got is that I gave  Gwahaat'ixsgyedit.  Q   You gave it to whom?  A  What they call it? I can't even say.  It sounds like  Rupert or something.  Q  Sounds like Rupert?  A  Yes.  I have forgot now.  It's not  hard to remember that.  The younger  forget.  .axnox. Sanpere, I  laxnox. That's the  to Sanpere. It was  Rupert anyway.  It's  ;st one. Gee, no, I 1-83  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   Can you tell us how you did -- how you performed your  laxnox?  How you did it?  A  How I perform it? There's the chiefs around, I got to  get after them, and acting.  Acting like I might grab  them by the chest and pull him around.  Acting. Some  kind of mean.  That's laxnox.  Q  Tell me how you acted? Tell me what you did?  A  that's what I did. I,m telling you. Acting to grab  them, grab one of the chief and pull him around, try  and knock him down. Until he's in his own show. He's  laxnox too. That's the time I stop. They gave me the  money for that but the people behind me who looking after  my sheet of paper, they put the names which one, I'm  finished, and put the names on how much they gave.  How  much every one, mark it down.  When I start I didn't  even take Eustace's money but I start paying that back.  I put another dollar on top of that, that money, two  dollars what it is.  Q  Did they use -- did the people use a rattle when you  did your laxnox?  A  A rattle?  Q  Yes, did they use a rattle?  A  Yes, if I got one I use it.  Q  How did you use the rattle?  A  Shake it.  Q  Was that at the beginning of the laxnox?  A  Yes.  But not for, just walking around with the two man  behind me, one looking after the money and one of them  get their names on.  Q  What are those two men called? What do you call them?  A   I didn't call them.  It is only short time. They only  helping me, that's all.  Q  When you went up -- sorry?  A   I got to pay them when I'm finished.  Q  You pay those two helpers?  A  Yes.  Q  Now, when you Gent up to the other chiefs, what did you  do to them?  A  It's still the same, acting.  Q  Yes, you're  acting, I understand.  How did you act?  Can you just    A  Treat them rough.  Q  Tell me some of the ways you treated them rough?  A   I dragging around. That's how you act.  Q  Did you ever claw at them?  A  No.  Q  No? 1-84  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  That was different one you're talking about.  You mean  Haagapgansxw.  Q  That's a different laxnox is it?  A  Yes.  Q  Tell me about the other laxnox where you clawed at them?  Tell me about that one too?  A   I got to scratch you on the face.  Q  Were you acting there?  A  Yes.  Q   In this laxnox, what is the name of that laxnox?  A  That's Haagapgansxw.  Q   Tell me What you did in that laxnox?  A  When you scrape?  Q   Yes, when youscraped at them?  A  The old people, they used get a bag, that's what they  tell me. Kind of sharp on the end where they scratching  anybody to bleed.  They bleed. Just kind of cut up too  much.  Too much for acting.  I was going to get one  and I was going to use those, you know those lipstick?  Q   Lipstick, yes.  A  I was going to put it in some kind of cloaks and make  a hole on the end, and scratch.  Q  ind you would leave marks on their face, would you?  A  Yes.  When I was through they were .... (clapping) ...  that's what they did.  Q  Now, in this laxnox, when you acted like this, did it  frighten people or was it supposed to be funny?  A  They got to sing me a song too. Every  one of them to  give me the money.  Money -- they never lost the money  at all. Those people behind me, who  is collecting that  money, and the other one who is putting  how much money  they got. Everyone knows I am going  to return it.  Q  So they would pay you the money because  they know you  would return it?  A  Yes.  Q  What kind Of SOngs did they sing when  they paid you the  money?  What did they sing?  A  That,s their own.  Q   Their own song?  A  Yes, their own song.  Q  When do you do the laxnox?  The clawing  laxnox, when  do you do that?  Is that at a feast?  A  Oh yes. Yes.  Oh yes. You know that when you put --  put up those totem poles.  It's got to be laxnox for  that.  That,s the time they using that rattle.  Q  Why do you do the laxnox and use the rattle when they  put up the pole? 1-85  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   Well, because it's laxnox. That's the main part of it.  Q    That's the What part?  A   That's the main part of it, what they're doing.  Sing  the song too, and acting.  And who's come out of there,  they call it, come out. It's got to be some kind of  -- they brought out my father, got to be there, to help  me about that.  Q   How many laxnox does 'Niikyap have?  How many?  A   Quite a few. Ganoots'it, that's another one there.  Ganoots'it is laxnox.  Q   What do you do there at Ganoots'it?  A   I forget now. I gave one to the woman, because I got  so many.  I don,t want to lost any one of them.  So I've  got to call someone about it, just the same as that fellow  fellow down through Skeena Crossing.  Same thing.  I  give to him but he can't pass it to any other.  If he  ever change it then it's got to be. What I did, I return  one of them to Solomon Jack, at the time they put up  the feast.  'Wiiangyamuum.  His mother call me  'Wiiangyamuum, that's laxnox, but I got to return that  one because I can't use it. The people who gave it to  me they all died off, and I'm the only one who has been  -- the one who has been there, but it is here, called  their laxnox, so I have to return it.  Q  Return it to the house that gve it to you?  A  Yes, I got to give it back. My brother, Charlie, got  one.  That was Haat'ixslaxnox laxnox.  Q  Say that again?  A  Haat'ixslaxnox.  Q   Hatt'ixslaxnox.  A  Yes.  That means awful bad one.  Q   That's an awful bad One?  A  Yes.  Acting like fighting again.  You got that  Ganoots'it yet?  Q  You told us about Ganoots'it.  A  Ganoots'it, yes.  Ganoots'it is this little man there  under the ice, and when they start playing and there  goes . . . (clapping). They're all slapping their hands.  Q   Clapping  their hands?  A  Yes.  Just about that, they quit laughing at you. Even  they going under, they're going under the glacier, under  the ice.  Those Ganoots'it, when they're going under  the ice and that ice was growing over on top and they're  going  ...(clapping). The ice started cracking up and  opens  up and there comes Ganoots'it coming out of the  ice.  The ice cracks open and there comes Ganoots'it.  That is laxnox. That's bad one. Anything when 1-86  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Ganoots'it is on, is very bad. Just the same as  Haat'ixslaxnox.  Q   Say that again?  What did you say?  A   Haat'ixslaxnox.  It's the same thing.  Q    It's the same thing?  A    It's bad.  MR. RUSH:  David, let's just take a break. You have been doing  a lot of talking and I think we all need a break, particularly me!  - - -  SHORT RECESS  MR. RUSH:  It's  good to have a director telling us when to stop  and start!  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  David, I just wanted to ask you again about when your  laxnox, when you were scratching at the people, and when '  you were acting like that, did the people think that  was funny, when you did that? Or were they frightened  when you did that?  A   It looks funny while I'm still on but after I'm through,  it seems it's an awful funny looking man.  Q  When you did your laxnox, were you wearing anything  special?  A  No.  No. Only  sometimes I can put on my blanket.  If  I do that and walk around, there goes my man coming behind  me, and the other  one watching me for everything what  I 'm doing. So  if I can't even get that, mark that down  myself, getting  the money and look after myself, so I've  got to take those two guys to look after me.  Q   Is there anybody who guides you as you do ,your laxnox?  Is there what is called a guide?  A  Yes, they call it guide. That's all it is.  Q  Do they have a name    A  Look after me.  Q  Yes. Do they have a name in Gitksan? Do they have a  special name?  A   I don't know which one. Too  many. Any like him, any  like Ralph. He's from Giskaast. He look after me.  Q  Now then about the    A  I won't allow anyone haven't got the name as a kind of  chief to look after me.  Q  He has to be a chief?  A  He's got to be a chief.  Q  David, do you know what is a luuix?  A  That was on a stand, look at me, I should have got one 1-87  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  but they quit it now anyway.  Q  What were they?  A  That was, the first one is kind of small, very small.  The next one is coming bigger, what he has been doing,  and the another one comes bigger again. Getting bigger.  Still keep on going, put it all around.  Q  You're pointing to your neck, were these like a wreath  around your neck?  A  Yes, just like those people -- what they call now?  Hawaiian people?  Q   The Hawaiian people.  A   Just the same thing. They getting those kind of thing  around their neck.  Q   How many did they wear?  A   I don't know.  There's only one but it's only growing  bigger. This one small, bigger, bigger.  Q   You pointed to your fingers?  A  Yes.  Q  As your fingers get bigger the wreaths get bigger?  A  Every time something is coming, well, he's got to be  little bigger.  Make it little bigger.  The last one,  that was quite bigger and, after that, the last one,  I don't know how many, what they called, they go to yukxw  Q  Again?  A  They go yukxw.  That's what they call it. Hlahlisxw,  you finish it all. Look at me right now, I've got no  where to go.  I have got the last, ask 'Niikyap.  That  was head man in the house and after that I got, that's  all I have to do, just get those totem pole. That's  the time I'll be finished, when I through with that,  hut we don't do it now. Only using that headstone.  Q   You Only use the headstone now?  A  Yes.  Q  When the Chiefs USe the luuix    A  Yes?  Q    what was important about them for the chief?  A  That's the sign.  Q   The sign of what?  A  Sign of what kind of chief he is.  Q   If he had more luuix did that mean that he was a bigger  chief?  A  Bigger chief, yes.  Q   I see.  A  The last one, there comes -- gee, I forgot -- he mentioned  it. That's only one man who knows who must go through  to that, that was Black Hat Tom.  He's the one that's  been at that -- gee, I forget what they call it.  MR. PLANT: He's the only one who knew what? 1-88  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  MR. RUSH: I'll get to that.  THE WITNESS:  Blew that horn to ... . (sings). Kind of sounds  about two or three people playing just the one horn.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Playing what?  A   Just the one horn.  Q   One horn?  A  Yes, about three of them, three or four  of them, the  sound of that.  Q  What did Black Hat Tom know?  A  That's what I mean, I forget.  Uulaalaa.  Q  Uulaalaa?  A  Yes. Laxnogim Uulaalaa, that's what they call that . . .  (Singing).  He's the only one that get all kinds of voice  Q   It Was Black Hat Tom that knew the Uulaalaa?  A  That was the biggest chief, Black Hat Tom, who got to  that Uulaalaa.  Q   Did you see him or hear him do this?  A  No, I didn't.  We didn't even use that.  Q  You heard about it though?  A  Yes.  I see him up at Kisgagas.  B  YOu saw him up at Kisgagas?  A  Yes.  Walking that little street up to Kisgagas.  Just  the one trail at the village there.  Q  Did you se* a chief with the luuix on?  A  Oh yes.  Q  Who did you see wearing the luuix?  A  That was Paul -- his name was Paul Ts'iiwus.  Q   Paul Ts'iiwus?  A  Yes.  Q  What village was he from?  A  Kisgagas.  Q  Was he WOlf, Frog or Fireweed?  A  Wolf. That was the one, he's dead, he's the one that's  got bigger luuix than anybody else.  That luuix got bit  by that -- what they call it now? Just finished.  Black  Hat Tom was out before that, that big luuix. Black Hat  Tom got the best.  Q   Black Hat Tom had the best? Luuix, was it?  A  Yes, that bridge, that big luuix is Black Hat Tom, that  uulaalaa.  Q   I see.  A  Uulaalaa  is the bigger.  Q  Uulaalaa  is bigger than the luuix    A  Yes, that's all true.  Back Hat Tom is going through  for that luuix and after that he stands up to me to be 1-89  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  uulaalaa.  laxnox uulaalaa they call it. That's what  it say.  Q  They call that laxnox uulaalaa?  A  Yes, laxnox uulaalaa.  Q  Just before we took our break you mentioned Solomon Jack;  you told us about Solomon Jack's name.  Do you know  Solomon Jack's Gitksan name now?  A   I don't know which one now but the last time when his  brother died.  He's got few names.  Dimguus.  Q  What's his name?  A  One of them Dimguus and -- gee, I forgot now. That one  I tell you about that, I gave him one back as -- no.  Too many.  Q   Too many names.  A  Too many names.  Q   You remember a lot of them. David, is Solomon Jack still  living today?  A  Yes. That's right. BelOW my place up there. Behind  that church.  That's where he lives.  Q   Is he younger or older than you?  A  He's way younger than me.  Q  Way younger than you?  A  Yes.  Q  Now, youtold us about the song that Mary Johnson sang?  A   I don't know.  She's got too many I think but I didn't  even know songs. That's only one of them. His songs  that I used to sing.  That's all.  Even my own song,  kind of hard to sing it.  I just remembered, really made  up that song is 'Wiiganasiitsaa.  That was a kind of  a big face or something like that.  But the sound of  it, I don't know.  Q   Is that known as a breath song?  A  That was the breath song, yes.  Q   Is that different from a limx 'ooy?  a  Limx 'ooy, that's the same thing.  Q   Is it the same thing?  A  Yes, that's the same thing.  Q  Now, you told us of the feast where you took the name  Niikyap, and at that feast you paid  some money for  the name?  A  That's right, yes.  Q   Do you remember how much you paid for the name when you  took it?  A  I was thinking I was spending about over thousand dollars  for that, and all the helpers comes in besides that.  Q   How many years have you been 'Niikyap?  A   'Niikyap? 1-90  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   How long have you been 'Niikyap?  A   I don't know, ever since my mother died.  I forget what  year when she died. I got it on some papers up the school  I believe.  Q  Now, at that feast, can you tell us what the people ate?  The people ate at the feast, what did they eat?  A  They didn't eat like mountain goat!  MR. PLANT: Like what?  MR. RUSH:  They didn't eat like the mountain goat.  Q  What did they eat?  A  Just like we eating.  Q  You tell me though at that feast what people ate?  A  Soup.  Bread.  Any kind of buns. Things like that.  Sometimes bunch of sandwiches.  Q   Sandwiches?  A  Yes.  Any kind of sandwich, they made up for everybody.  It'sgood for anybody to eat.  It's not only me to eat.  Q  Were there berries there?  A  Oh yes. The berries that came in, those berries before  if you ate at a feast or anything there they'll tell  you that you're going to get some, home-made berries.  Huckleberries,  that's everybody crazy about that.  Q  People are crazy abOut huckleberries?  A   Yes.  Q  What did the people drink at the feast?  A  Tea, coffee. Anything that they could. Some kind of  juice.  Q  Was there fruit that was eaten at the feast as well?  A  Oh yes.  Q   Other than berries?  A  Yes.  Q  What was eaten then?  A  There's nothing but berries.  Berries and   Q  You told us that you also gave food away at the feast?  A  What?  Q  You gave food out to the people who were at the feast?  A   Yes.  Q   I think you told us yesterday you have bread and biscuits  A  Yes.  Anything that is good to eat. Put it right on  the table.  Q  Do you remember what you gave out? Do you remember what  you did at 'Niikyap's feast?  A  That's what I said, anything what is good for you.  Q  Okay.  A   I am not going to give you anything what the mountain  goat eat!  Q  David, you were telling us that it was hard for you to 1-91  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  speak at the feast and that Mary Mackenzie spoke at your  feast when you took the name of Muut?  What do you say?  Q   When you took the name Muut, when the name Muut was  floated back to you    A   On account of my brother, Alex, died.  Q   Yes, and Mary Mackenzie spoke for you there, because  you said you had trouble speaking?  A  Yes.  Q   I think you also said you had toruble breathing?  A  Yes, that's right, short breathing.  Q   Can you tell us why you're short of breath?  A   I don't know.  Q   Is there something wrong with your lungs?  A  Nothing wrong. I was being to the doctor so many times  on account of those wee little kids always wants to play  with me, and talking about TV and so I get after my doctor  every time. But it's nothing.  I don't know how many  gallons of my spit they shift around.  They didn't even  find anything wrong with my lungs.  Q   Do you know why you're short of breath?  A  No.  Q   They haven't told you?  A  No. Lot of people get the same thing but some of them  get out of it and some of them, not yet.  Q   Do you know if it has anything to do with your being  a miner when you were underground?  A  That was being checked up too.  You mean, what they used  to call that? I forget what they call that.  Well I'm  all checked up with that underground business.  It was  only when I was in bad place while we loading those ore,  you know, theyall goes into the bucket and dumped them  right into the boat.  Used to cover up my,mouth, like  that.  Q  There Was a lot of dust there, was there?  A  Just like sack of flour, shaking it, shake the sacks,  that's how it is. How I seen it myself, but I got a  wash.  Every time I blew my nose nothing but blood comes  out.  Q   You didn't wear any masks down there?  A  Yes, we should but they did now in that kind of job but  I haven' t got no mask that time I was there.  But got  the Chinaman did now. That's another thing.  They takes  the Chinaman,  that's them unloading those boat, or  loaded up. They got all the Chinamans on that big boat.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION 1-92  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Yesterday you told us about 'Niikyap's battle with the  A  Stikine, do you remember?.. . .  A  Yes.  Q   .... the history you told us yesterday?  A  Yes,  I remember.  Q  You said 'Niikyap went to the place where the people  were  living underground?  A  that's  right.  Q   Do  you know the name of the people who were living underground?  Is there a name for  thos people?  A   I  don't know. They only telling about those people  underground  and I didn't even  know what their name of  those two young couple, one of them got killed and one  of  them sent home. They didn't even tell their name  too either.  Q  When Niikyap saw the smoke  coming from underground . . .  A   Yes.  Q    can you tell us again what he saw?  A  Those  people was underground, that's  all. That's why  he  give up and go back to Kisgagas and waited until the  next year  just on account they got no way to get them  out.  To get them out that underground.  Q  Okay.  A  That's the danger for them, if they ever try to fight  that people underground.  So they went home to Kisgagas  and  started up again the next year. They were comfortable.  Yes, now that's what we're looking for.  Q   You  were telling us yesterday about the grizzly's armour,  his  hide?  A   Yes.  Q  Did the hide have a name? The Skin, did that have a name?  A  They didn't get a name, just grizzly, grizzly hide.  Q   How  do you say grizzly hide  in Gitksan? What is the  name for grizzly hide?  A  Tk'ahl  lik'i'insxw.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  THE WITNESS:  It's kind of hard.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you, David. I agree it is hard but there are  some here who would have me try it. I'll have to see  it written before I can say it back to you, David.  THE WITNESS:  Yes. Before the grizzly scratch your face!  MR. RUSH:  Yes, definitely before he does that!  Q  Yesterday we talked about William Jackson, do you  remember? 1-93  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   Yes.  Q   Who Was william Jackson's Second wife?  A   Ellen was first. Kathleen Jackson, that's the last one  I know.  Q   Kathleen Jackson?  A   Yes.  Q   Did Kathleen Jackson have a big name?  A   Kathleen Jackson? That's Melulek.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Does Melulek have territory up by Kisgagas?  A   That's her own of all around to, around up to Xsagagyoot  they call it.  Q   Xsagagyoot?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, you have pointed to Ralph Michell, to 'Wiiseeks?....  A   That's right.  Q    .... several times here;  who is Ralph's mother?  A   That's Mary. Mary Michell.  Q   Mary Michell?  A   Yes.  Q   Who is Mary's mother?  A   That was another Mary.  Q   Yes.  A   Yes, that's another Mary. That's why we call her Mary,  on account of her mother was Mary.  Mary Michell.  Q    Is Ralph related to William Jackson?  A   That's why he call him 'Wiiseeks.  That's William  Jackson's first name, in the first place, before 'Wiiseeks  there's Axgagoodit.  I was going to give him Axgagoodit  in the first but somebody got that name, so they waited  until they get that -- gee, I forget again.  Too many.  It's lot of names.  But Pete put 'Wiiseeks on him, he  gave him his name and he got that, I know that.  His  name is Moses Morrison and I forget his chief name.  No more guy, Moses Morrison died and Pete  take his chief  name.  I forget now.  That's why he give him 'Wiiseeks.  The other guy, the other fellow got the other name.  There's too many names.  I have a hard time.  Q   Your wife's name was Esther Medik?  A  That's right.  Q   She Was related to Hannah Jackson?  A  That's right. Supposing to be her grandmother.  Q   Grand?  A  Her grand, yes.  Q   Grandmother?  A  Yes. 1-94  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  What was william Jackson's relationship to Hannah?  A  That's going to be his sister.  Q   His sister?  A  Yes.  Q  Mary Michell, Ralph's mother    A  That's right.  Q     who was her mother?  MR. PLANT:  We have that already, Mary.  MR. RUSH:  Mary.  THE WITNESS:  Mary Michell.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  What was her last name is what I wanted to ask?  A  Mary Michell's?  Q   Yes, Mary Michell's mother's last name?  MR. PLANT:  You've asked that already.  THE WITNESS:  I forgot.  It's up to Kispiox.  I can't remember.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   You Say that Ralph lived with you for a while?  A  Yes.  Q   Do you know how many years Ralph lived with you?  A   I don't know.  I like him.  Smart fellow when he was little  Going around any place with me. I go up on top of the  mountains, any place travelling round.  Jumping over the  log, going right on to the log. That's why I like him,  smart.  Q   He lived with you at Stewart, did he?  A  Yes.  Out in the hill.  Was your wife living at the time? Was Esther living then?  A  Oh yes.  Q   I'm going to stop now, David.  A  Yes.  Q  We are going to adjourn now to another date when we'll  come back and ask some more questions, hopefully not too  many more.  Thank you very much again.  A  Yes.  MR. RUSH:  So we'll adjourn until the next session of this  Commission.  Thank you.    PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED AT 11.50 a.m.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  :VH-Mar.22/86


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