Open Collections

Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-05-29] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 29, 1987

Item Metadata


JSON: delgamuukw-1.0018374.json
JSON-LD: delgamuukw-1.0018374-ld.json
RDF/XML (Pretty): delgamuukw-1.0018374-rdf.xml
RDF/JSON: delgamuukw-1.0018374-rdf.json
Turtle: delgamuukw-1.0018374-turtle.txt
N-Triples: delgamuukw-1.0018374-rdf-ntriples.txt
Original Record: delgamuukw-1.0018374-source.json
Full Text

Full Text

 784  Application by Mr.Sterritt  Ruling by the Court  1 MAY 29, 1987  2 SMITHERS B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia this 29th day of May, 1987, Delgam Uukw and  6 others and Her Majesty the Queen.  7 THE COURT:  I have before me Mr. Sterritt's further application.  8 Is Mr. Sterritt here?  Mr. Sterritt, I don't propose  9 to hear you on this, I'm sorry.  You applied for  10 status as an intervener some days ago.  I dismissed  11 your application.  This document you have filed is  12 stated to be an appeal against my denial of your  13 intervener status and I think, with respect, that  14 you're in the wrong court.  If you wish to appeal, as  15 you say you do, then your appeal must be to the Court  16 of Appeal, and I am not a judge of the Court of  17 Appeal.  I think I should tell you that, without  18 presuming to advise you, that there are time limits  19 for appeals, and I don't know whether the time limit  20 on this case would be 15 days from the day I  21 pronounced my judgment or 30 days, but you should have  22 that in mind.  And if you are proposing to continue  23 with an appeal, then you should move quickly because  24 although there is jurisdiction to extend time for  25 appeal in the Court of Appeal, it's not for me to  26 predict whether an extension of time would be granted,  27 and for that reason I must decline to hear you further  28 on your application for intervener status.  29 MR. STERRITT:   May I give you the one case that I think bears  30 on the decision that you're making?  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  32 MR. STERRITT:   There's a case Regina versus Aull, A-u-1-1,  33 1914, 60 W.N. 372; 19 D.L.R. 309; 32 O.L.R. 68.  And  34 the comment that I extracted from that -- and I found  35 this in Supreme Court Practises 1985.  It indicates  36 that "It is a duty mutatis mutandis to intervene so as  37 to modify the result which would otherwise be obtained  38 in a litigation."  And the comment that I think bears  39 on the decision that you're making says "The  40 intervention may not only be at the trial, but at any  41 stage of the proceedings."  And I feel that if you  42 take that into account, you could grant the  43 intervention on that basis.  44 THE COURT:  I think what that means is that there is  45 jurisdiction in a court of appeal to intervene at the  46 appeal period or at the time of appeal, as well as at  47 a trial, and I don't think there's any doubt about 785  Ruling by the Court  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 that proposition, but I do not think that, for the  2 reasons I've already stated, that you should be  3 allowed to intervene in this case at the trial and if  4 you wish to question that decision, your application  5 must be to the Court of Appeal and not to me.  So I  6 can only suggest to you that if you're determined to  7 pursue this question of intervention that you should  8 be proceeding in the Court of Appeal which will  9 require you to file your documents within the required  10 time in the Court of Appeal registry and there are  11 only two Court of Appeal registries, one in Victoria  12 and one in Vancouver.  13 MR. STERRITT:   Thank you.  14 THE COURT:  That's the most I can do for you, I'm sorry.  Thank  15 you.  Is Mr. Grant with us this morning?  16 MR. RUSH: Well, I had hoped he'd be here by the conclusion of  17 Your Lordship's ruling.  I wonder if we could just  18 stand down for a moment?  19 THE COURT:  All right.  20 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  21 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A BRIEF RECESS)  22  2 3 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  24 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  25 THE COURT: Mr. Grant?  26 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Witness, I remind you you're still under oath.  28 THE WITNESS: Yes.  29  30 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONT. BY MR. GRANT:  31 Q   Before proceeding with the territory which you were  32 describing yesterday, I just wanted to ask you a few  33 other questions.  34 Do you represent Tsibasaa in this court action?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Okay.  And do you represent all of the other members  37 of your House in this court action?  38 A   Yes.  39 MR. GRANT:   I'd like to move over to the territory that we were  40 describing, this was the one map that we had in the  41 exhibit.  I believe it was the last of the two maps,  42 and possibly that could be marked as an exhibit  43 itself, My Lord, in case there's a mix up as to which  44 folder it would go into.  Well —  For identification if --  All right.  We'll call it 17 A then.  4 5 THE COURT  4 6 MR. GRANT  4 7    THE COURT 786  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Although I think it could go in as an exhibit  2 proper, she's identified it as her territory.  3 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, yes, it can go in as an exhibit  4 but we'll call it 17 — let's call it 17-9-A.  5 MR. GRANT:  Right.  6 THE COURT:  Exhibit 17-9-A.  7  8 (EXHIBIT 17-9-A: MAP OF ANTGULILBUX'S TERRITORY)  9  10 MR. GRANT:  11 Q   Now, I'm referring you to the territory, I won't refer  12 you to the map itself, but just -- you can describe it  13 for me, the territory of Antgulilbix at Wilt galli  14 bax, you know the territory I'm talking about?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Do you know who -- what chiefs own territories on the  17 north side of your territory, that is, the side going  18 up the Kispiox River from your territory?  Do you know  19 which chief is your neighbour on that side?  20 A   The territory is -- that we own is -- is Andamhl,  21 where the moon shines on.  22 Q   Right.  23 A  And another is Xsikadook.  24 Q   Yes?  25 A  And there's a creek runs the other side, Xsikadook,  26 that's the boundary and the name of the creek is Xsan  27 Max Hlo'o.  28 Q   The first name given was 322, the second name  29 Xsikadook is 321, and the last name is 320.  30 Do you know who has territory on the other side of  31 that creek Xsan Max Hlo'o?  32 A   It's Jonathon Johnson's -- late Jonathon Johnson said  33 it belongs to Ma'uus, but I never heard anything about  34 that until -- until I was told few days ago.  35 Grandfather never mentioned that he owned that  36 mountain.  37 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Now, if you went down, Xsan Max Hlo'o, is  38 there another creek that is a boundary of your  39 territory?  40 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant, I'm sorry, but I haven't found Xsan Max  41 Hlo'o yet.  42 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, if you look right directly below Kispiox,  43 the name Kispiox.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 MR. GRANT:  And you follow the black line down, you see it's  46 written right into the black line sideways.  47 THE COURT:  Oh, well, all right.  What was she telling me was 787  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  MR.  GRANT  3  THE  COURT  4  5  MR.  GRANT  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  THE  COURT  16  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GOLDI  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  MR.  GRANT  39  THE  COURT  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46  47  the land on the other side of that creek?  Is Ma'uus.  She says that Jonathon Johnson said last week that  it belonged to Ma'uus.  No, Jonathon Johnson told you this a long time ago; is  that right?  No, he didn't tell me, but that's just what I was told  few days ago when they showed me the map.  Is Jonathon Johnson alive?  He died many years ago.  Okay.  But I will believe what he says because he's the son  of --  I don't know what the evidence of this witness is,  Mr. Grant, I'm sorry.  Well, the reason I went back to it, My Lord, is it  appeared that you misunderstood what was said.  I plead guilty to that.  GOLDIE: You're not alone, My Lord.  No, I have no idea what this witness is telling me,  Mr. Grant.  Can we perhaps start again?  Yes, I want to know -- I don't know how far back to  go.  Well, I think you better start at the beginning  because the use of these names is absolutely  impossible for me to follow.  Okay.  I'm referring to Exhibit 17-9-A, and for the  record, I'm not putting that exhibit to the witness,  but it's available of course for the court and  counsel.  I'm referring you to -- I'd like to go -- I'm  going to go -- we'll go back over your evidence that  you started with about the territory a little more  slowly, okay?  Yes.  Okay, so the court can understand.  We're not going too slowly, Mr. Grant.  It's the way  we're proceeding that's difficult.  Well, My Lord it appeared that there were three  names that she gave and I think that may have been --  at one time, and I think that may have been where  there was some mix up.  Well, yes, that's part of the trouble.  All I did  was write down the numbers, and of course that doesn't  relate to the map. Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  MR.  GRANT  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  GRANT  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  Q  47  Okay.  I'm referring you to the territory of Wilt  gallii bax, and you said that that territory included  Xsikadook; is that right?  Yes.  And is that a mountain?  Yeah, it's a mountain between --  It's number 321 on the list -- I'm sorry, it's  324 (sic) on the list.  Is that spelled S-i-k-e-d-a-k-h?  No, that's the reserve, My Lord.  Yes.  The mountain is underneath the reserve on the map.  It's -- is there a -- is it called Skanisim Sikadook?  No, they just call it Xsikadook.  And what does Xsikadook mean?  It means a luu hetxw.  It means standing by itself.  And is that how this mountain is, it stands by itself?  Yeah.  Yeah.  Well, that's what's shown on the map as Skanisim  Sikadook is it?  Skanisim Sikadook, yes.  All right.  Thank you.  And it's 324 on the list.  Thank you.  Now, you were saying that on the other side of  Xsikadook there is a creek.  Now, this is if you were  at Wilt galli bax and you went past Xsikadook, you  come to a creek; is that right?  Yeah, that's called Xsan Max Hlo'o.  Three-twenty on the list.  And is this a boundary of your territory?  Yeah.  Okay.  That's what grandmother said, and Emily said.  And that creek flows into the Kispiox River?  Yes.  Okay.  And that's, for the record, the creek that's  written along the side of the black line.  Yes, I have it.  Does it have a number?  Yes, 320, My Lord.  Thank you.  And I asked you before whose territory was on the  other side of that creek? 789  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A   They said it was Ma'uus.  Q   Okay.  Who said it was Ma'uus?  A   Some maps were shown to me a few days ago.  Q   Okay.  Did Jonathon Johnson say anything about whose  territory it was?  A   Yeah, he said it, and he -- he never told me, he told  someone.  Like I said, grandfather never mentioned  anything.  Q   Okay.  When you're referring to grandfather, who are  you referring to?  A   That's Ma'uus.  GRANT:   Okay.  That's on the list of plaintiffs.  What  number is that?  TRANSLATOR: Forty-eight.  COURT: Well, is it your evidence that your grandfather told  you that Jonathon Johnson told him that the land on  the other side of the creek belonged to Ma'uus?  WITNESS:   No, just Jonathon Johnson said that it belongs to  Ma'uus.  COURT:  I thought you said a moment ago that Jonathon  Johnson didn't say that to you?  WITNESS:   He told someone and they also --  COURT:  Well, do I have it right then  straighten it out, Mr. Grant.  Yes, My Lord, I'11 —  See what you can do.  well, you should  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  TRANSLATOR  GRANT:  Your grandfather was Ma'uus?  Yeah.  And he never talked to you about this territory?  No, he never mentioned anything.  Okay.  The reason we're concerned about this is just  for certain -- the evidence rules, okay, so if you  just bear with us?  Yeah.  Did Jonathon Johnson say something about whose  territory it was?  Yeah, someone told me that Jonathon Johnson said that  the land belongs to Ma'uus.  Who did he tell that -- who did Jonathon tell that to?  I don't know, but they just showed me a map and I  believe what Jonathon said because he -- he's an elder  man and he's a chief.  His name is Wii'mogulsxw and he  always tells the truth.  That's what number on the plaintiffs' --  Seventy-eight. 790  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  THE  TRANS  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  MR.  GRANT  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  Seventy-eight on the plaintiffs' list.  And if you went along this boundary of this creek,  Xsan Max Hlo'o, 320 on the list, where does your  boundary -- is there another creek that forms part of  your boundary?  Yes, another -- another large creek that they call Xsu  Wil Masxwit.  :   That's 317 on the list, and it's on the map, My  Lord, if you follow from the --  : Is it this incredibly long word X-s-u W-i-i  M-a-s-x-w-i-t?  LATOR: Uh-huh.  Yes.  X-s-u W-i-1.  Oh, W-i-1.  And then M-a-s-x-w-i-t.  All right.  Thank you.  Now, at the far end of your territory, that is, if you  went straight back from Xsikadook, is there a mountain  near the far end of your territory?  Yes.  And what's the name?  That mountain name is Wil Masxwit, that's the reason  why they call that creek Xsu Wil Masxwit, that means  it comes from the mountain.  The name of the mountain is 318 on the map.  So that creek, that is, your boundary, comes from  the mountain?  Yes.  And it's at the bottom, My Lord, of the map.  Is it marked like contours?  No. Yes, it is marked.  There's a name on it and  it's a little to the right of the heavy -- a little to  the left of the heavy black line as you're facing it.  Wil Masxwit?  Wil Masxwit, yes.  Wil Masxwit.  Yes.  And that number is --  And that number is --  -- 318?  Yes.  Did your great-great-grandmother and your --  and/or your grandmother take any minerals or things  off of this territory that they used for dyeing?  Yes.  Could you explain what they did and what it was? 791  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   I just saw them soak some -- she dried cedar bark.  2 After they dry it they just soak it into they -- what  3 they call their dye.  They called their dye maa'yast.  4 THE TRANSLATOR: Maa'yast, M-a-a-'-y-a-s-t.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   And what was this maa'yast, where did they get it  7 from?  8 A   They got it from outside the village.  The other  9 grandmother didn't show us where she got it.  She said  10 she got it across the Kispiox -- the Skeena River, not  11 very far he said, but --  12 Q   Okay.  13 A   But she's already aged when she tell me and I  14 didn't -- she didn't show me the exact spot.  15 Q   Well, you said your other grandmother, who --  16 A   Lucy Tait.  17 Q   Okay.  And what did they use it for?  You said they  18 soaked cedar in it, what did it do to the cedar?  19 A   Yeah, they trimmed the mats with it and it really  20 looks beautiful.  They trim the black with their mats  21 and they use the mats when a visiting chief came and  22 they spread out the mat.  The chief sat on the mat or  23 a fringes.  24 Q   And you've seen these mats?  25 A   Yes.  My mother used to make them and grandmother.  26 They made baskets too.  27 THE COURT:  Where were you when you were told this?  28 THE WITNESS:   What?  2 9 THE COURT:  Where were you when you were told about the -- about  30 where these seeds came from?  31 MR. GRANT:  I don't believe they were seeds, My Lord, it was a  32 dye.  33 THE COURT:  I thought the dye came from seeds.  Didn't she say  34 that?  35 THE INTERPRETER: Cedar, dried cedar.  36 MR. GRANT:  They dyed cedar bark with them.  37 THE COURT: All right.  Well, where were you when you were told  38 that they came from across the river?  39 THE WITNESS:   Yeah, I was -- we were at home at Kispiox when  40 she told me that she knows where to pick the dye in.  41 MR. GRANT:  42 Q   This territory that we've been talking about, how long  43 has it been, according to what your grandmother has  44 taught you, how long has it been held by Antgulilbix's  45 House?  46 A  As far as I could remember, and my auntie and her  47 husband used to go out and trap at Xsu Wil Masxwit. 792  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   That's 317, My Lord.  2 And before your grandmother's time, was that  3 territory part of Antgulilbix?  4 A   Yes.  5 MR. GRANT:   What about before your great-great-grandmother's  6 time?  7 MR. GOLDIE: Is this intended to be part of an adaawk because  8 clearly it's beyond her own personal knowledge?  9 MR. GRANT:  10 Q   It clearly is.  11 Did your great-great-grandmother tell you about  12 this territory?  13 A   It's passed from -- on from generation to generation,  14 like the rest, like all the mountains that I  15 mentioned.  16 Q   Did your great-great-grandmother talk to you about  17 this territory when she taught you the adaawks?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Was the description of this territory part of the  20 adaawk of your House?  21 A   They just said that they belonged to them, I mean, Xsu  22 Wil Masxwit, but they told me a story, an adaawk,  23 about where the boundary is, where Xsan Max Hlo'o is.  24 That's where they got the name called Gyadim Lax  25 ts'inaast and they got -- I'm sorry, I always go fast.  26 THE TRANSLATOR: That's number 26 on the names in Mary's House.  27 MR. GOLDIE: I'm sorry, what is that again?  28 THE TRANSLATOR: Number 26.  29 MR. GRANT:  Number 26 in the names in Mary's House.  30 THE TRANSLATOR: Uh-huh.  31 THE COURT:  Well, are the names in Mary's House not names of  32 people or are they names of places?  33 MR. GRANT:  Are you referring to page one of that list?  34 THE TRANSLATOR: No, this is the second part.  35 MR. GRANT:  36 Q   Okay.  Just a moment.  Yes.  That's a person's name,  37 that's right, My Lord.  And the place she's talking  38 about is 331(sic) on the territory names.  So she  39 described a person who was at that territory and those  40 are the two names she gave.  I'm sorry, Mrs. Johnson,  41 if you could -- you were describing about who was on  42 this territory?  43 A   That's the name I gave you.  His name is Gyadim Lax  44 ts'inaast.  45 Q   That's number 26 on the list?  46 A   Yeah, and when -- this is every mountain they have a  47 clearing and just brushes and they call those clearing 793  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  Naa Laxtsinaasit.  That's why they called him Gyadim  Lax ts'inaast, that's where he lives.  That's number 331.  And is that place on your territory?  Yes.  Okay.  It's not shown on the map, My Lord.  All right.  Now, is there a history of this man, Gyadim Lax  ts'inaast?  A   Yes.  Yes.  Q   And —  A  Whenever the village invite him to the Feast he kills  the one that invites him, so -- so they were afraid to  invite him, and there was a Feast going on and there  he was coming into the Feast House and they call out  his name like they did to the chiefs today "Gyadim Lax  ts'inaast", and there he is coming in the Feast House  and he -- he throw a bear skin over himself with --  with the head of the bear and the teeth of the bear.  And they said he really looks funny and mean himself,  and he decorate his blanket with human bones, he  sharpen them and decorated on his back and they stick  out on both sides. So the chief -- two chiefs, parted  a space for him to sit and these bones poked those  chiefs, so -- but they didn't move.  They were scared  of him, and that's the reason why his blanket name is  gwiis luu 'mihla.  Q   What does that mean?  A   That's the name of the blanket.  He annoys the two  chiefs that sits on both sides and they also --  COURT:  I think we should have a spelling for the name.  GRANT:  Certainly, My Lord.  TRANSLATOR: Gwiis luu 'mihla, G-w-i-i-s 1-u-u '-m-i-h-1-a.  COURT:  M-i-h-1-a?  TRANSLATOR: Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  WITNESS:  And they also made a mask of the same guy the way  his face is, and they call this mask Gyadim Lax  ts'inaast.  Every tribe got -- got their mask and they  got their names of the mask.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  And that's the same as the name of the person?  Yeah.  So that's number 26?  It's the same name.  Both late -- I didn't see the  mask, that's why I want to tell both chiefs that have 794  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  seen it.  Late Steve Morrison sees the mask and he  laughs when he remembers it. He said it's really  funny, funny and mean.  I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand that.  I was told and  GRANT:  Q  A  MR.  THE  MR.  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  TRANSLATOR  GRANT:  Q  The late Steve Morrison saw the mask?  Yeah.  And he described it to you?  Yeah.  And he said that he laughed at the mask?  Yeah.  Yeah, when he remembers it.  He said it was funny and mean?  Yes.  But you didn't see it?  It belongs to our clan.  But you haven't seen it?  I didn't see it, but I was just --  late Albert Tait said he sees the mask too.  Okay.  Now, this name that this man had, is that a  name in your House?  Yeah.  My cousin Harriet Gawa gave it to one of her  grandson at a pole raising, Paul Price.  Paul Price has it?  Yeah.  Now, Steve Morrison, he died in around 1978?  I think so.  His chief name is Wii elaast.  Do you have a number, please?  Number 72.  THE  MR.  THE  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  Q  Seventy-two on the plaintiffs' list.  Now, this history of this man, was this in the  lifetime of your grandmother that this happened?  Yeah.  It's -- it's a very ancient history.  All of  these mountains of very ancient and like the last one  you mentioned Wil Masxwit.  They call this mountain  Antgulilbix's hunting ground.  What number is this?  Three-eighteen, My Lord.  Mr. Grant, I'm not sure the witness understood your  question about the lifetime of --  No, I'm going to go back to that  misunderstood --  I'm not sure if she did or not.  She  It's unclear to me.  You've just described the history of this man who wore  this blanket? 795  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   When he came to the Feast Hall?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Did this happen while your grandmother Emily Latz was  5 alive?  6 A   No.  7 Q   Before that?  8 A   No.  9 Q   Did it happen when your great-great-grandmother  10 Anhalagyax was alive?  11 A   No.  12 Q   Was it before that?  13 A   Long before that, many generations.  Not long after  14 the people scattered from T'am lax amit.  15 Q   Okay.  So did this happen after Tsibasaa and  16 Antgulilbix moved to Wilt gallii bax?  17 A   Yeah.  18 Q   But before they moved to Kispiox?  19 A   Yeah.  20 Q   Okay.  Would you describe this as -- how did your  21 great-great-grandmother describe it when she described  22 when it occurred?  23 A   I was -- whenever she tells the ancient stories she  24 would say "It happens Ahl la oo'y gi" she -- is the  25 way she pronounce it.  That means thousands and  26 thousands of years ago.  27 THE COURT:  Just a moment, please.  28 THE TRANSLATOR: Ahl la oo'y gi, A-h-1 1-a o-o-'-y g-i.  2 9    MR. GRANT:  30 Q   Have you travelled on this territory that we've been  31 talking about yourself?  32 A   Yes, I have.  I went with my mother to pick  33 blueberries when I was small to where the old village  34 used to stand.  35 Q   Okay.  36 A  And she pick blueberry.  It's not far from the main  37 highway -- it's not long -- behind the vegetable farm,  38 that's where the little creek runs backwards.  That's  39 why they call it Wilt gallii bax.  Instead of  40 following Skeena it runs that way, and the vegetable  41 farmers covers where this little creek runs into a  42 highway and -- but you could still see the little  43 creek bubbles out there.  44 Q   So when you say it runs -- the Skeena goes in one  45 direction and this creek actually goes the opposite  4 6 way?  47 A   Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it turns into Skeena River. 796  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  GRANT  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  THE  COURT  26  27  MR.  GRANT  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  Q  And that creek is what you called --  Wilt gallii bax.  :   Okay.  That's 325(sic) on the list, and it's in the  top centre of -- at the top end of the heavy black  outline.  :  Is the stream here?  Yes, it's marked.  You see the tent figure, which is  the village, the village site where the village used  to be, and then there's that creek that goes along,  it's called Xsu Wil Gallii Bak; is that right?  Yes, Xsu Wil Gallii Bak.  And it's marked on there.  By Glen Vowell?  Yes, it's further down.  If you can see --  Towards Kispiox?  Yes, it's towards Glen Vowell.  It's right in the  middle of the territory at one end, but in the middle  of that territory and it's written on it sideways.  I haven't found the tent mark.  It's right on the creek.  There's Wilt gallii bax.  Yes, I found that.  And then there's a -- it's a sideways -- it's a  little triangle, a black triangle.  Oh, yes, I have it.  And is that what you understand  the witness is describing where she picked berries?  Yes.  You picked berries at the village site; is that  right?  Yeah, yeah.  There were no trees growing there at that  time when I see it, just -- just bushes were growing.  Has your brother Stanley travelled on this territory?  Yes, when he was young, and my father took him up  there to show him where -- where to set the traps.  That's the Git wilt gallii bax's hunting ground, and  they hunt for some groundhogs on the top of the  mountain too.  It's number 332, with a G-i-t in front of it is what  she referred to.  Three-thirty-two?  With a G-i-t in front.  And where's that on the map?  It's the -- I'll clarify it.  It's not a place on  the map.  :  All right.  When you say it's Git wilt gallii bax's -- 797  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  THE  COURT  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  THE  COURT  39  40  41  42  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Yeah, that means the people that live at the village  of Wilt gallii bax.  :   That's 332.  :  And can the witness tell us where it is on the map  or maybe she can't?  :  Well, the village is that triangle I referred you  to, My Lord.  : Yes.  And she said that when she referred to it as the  territory of Git wilt gallii bax, she's just explained  that she's referring to the fact that it's the  territory of the people of that place, Wilt gallii  bax, so that isn't a place name.  Do you know if -- did you travel with Stanley on  the territory?  No.  Can Stanley explain the places he travelled to on the  territory?  No.  Okay.  My Lord, I don't intend to ask her further  about that as Mr. Wilson --  I never been.  Someone that last goes there before  Stanley is Fred White.  After he's under health and  can't go up to our main hunting ground territory,  that's where he went, him and his wife, and his wife  Mable White is still alive today.  But she's very elderly.  Yes.  And she's not very well?  No.  And Fred White held the name Tsibasaa?  Yes.  And so you said -- you said that's where they went to.  Are you referring after they -- Fred became older he  went to this territory that we've been talking about?  Yeah.  Yeah.  :  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant I may have got the evidence  wrong again.  I thought that the witness said that  Stanley went there, and then she said before Stanley  went there Fred White went there until he got sick.  Maybe -- your last question and answer seems to  suggest that may be wrong.  I think that is what she said.  Fred White held the name Tsibasaa before Stanley, yes.  And did Fred White go to your northern territory? 79E  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  VOICE: Num  23  MR.  GRANT:  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  MR.  GRANT:  30  THE  COURT:  31  MR.  GRANT:  32  33  MR.  GOLDIE  34  MR.  GRANT:  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  MR.  GRANT:  40  41  THE  COURT:  42  MR.  GRANT:  43  THE  COURT:  44  THE  REGIST  45  THE  COURT:  46  47  That's where he always goes and after he's under  health and then he goes to Wilt gallii bax.  So while he was well he travelled to your northern  territory?  Yeah.  Then later he went to Wilt gallii bax?  Wilt gallii bax.  That's because it's much closer to the village; is  that right?  Yes, yes.  I'd like to refer the witness to the second map and  I'm going to ask the -- some of these names may be --  the translator will be able to pronounce better than  myself, just so that she knows.  Now, I'll fold the bottom part of the map  underneath with the name reference.  Now, this is a  map of a -- with a black outline and there's some  Indian names on it.  Now, do you recognize any of  those names?  Yes, there's what they call Tarn Naa Lax Tsinaasit.  That's —  ber 303.  Three-zero-three on the list, My Lord.  Okay.  I'm going to have to hold it up like this.  It's folded under.  You're referring to near the  bottom, the name of this place; is that right?  Yeah.  Tarn Naa Lax Tsinaasit.  I'm just going to ask you to put a mark there.  Was that number 303?  Three-zero-three, yes.  Could you just put an "X" beside that name?  Now -■  : May I see that, please?  Sure.  Now, can you tell the court whose territory  this is now that you've placed that mark?  Whose  territory is marked out here?  That's both Antgulilbix and Tsibasaa.  I'd ask that this map be marked as Exhibit 19-9-B,  I think, on --  The other one is B. We'll call this one 19 --  Exhibit 17 —  -- 9-A.  RAR:  The other one was 17-9-A.  All right.  This one will be B then,  this "X" between, please?  Now, where is 799  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  (EXHIBIT 17-9-B:  MAP OF ANTGULILBIX'S/TSIBASAA'S  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  TERRITORY)  Yes, maybe you could show the court?  Thank you.  And that's a lake, is it?  spelled -- it's along  It's sort of along  Is that a lake?  Yes.  Yes.  Go ahead.  You were going to say something?  And from the lake where they live, not far from the  lake, is -- as they travel following what they call  Xsi Wis An Skit is a -- a creek.  That's 301 or — 301 on the list, and My Lord it's  a -- well, maybe I'll put the exhibit to the witness.  Could you just put a one where that creek is -- or  I know it's a long creek, but somewhere along that  creek, just put a one, Xsi Wis An Skit, it's  written --  Yeah.  Okay.  How is it spelled, Mr. Grant?  It's 301 on the list and it's  the bottom of the map, My Lord,  the -- just inside this boundary.  X-s-i W-i-s --  A-n S-k-i-t.  All right.  GOLDIE: Can I see where she's placed the one, please?  GRANT:  Q   Yes.  And does your territory include all of the --  this creek, Xsi Wis An Skit?  Yeah, there's the first creek we pass when we travel  on Xsi Wis An Skit is Xsi Lapsit.  Three-zero-two on the list.  And can you put a two where Xsi Lapsit is on the  Exhibit 17-9-B?  Where'd she mark?  Xsi Lapsit, it's going up towards the top of the  map, My Lord.  COURT:  I found it.  WITNESS:   It's not a very long creek.  That's what I call  it when I was young because I have seen the mountains  were closing at the end of it, but if I go up now I  can't go there anymore.  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  A  MR. GRANT  COURT:  GRANT:  GRANT:  Q  A  Why can't you go there anymore?  Because I'm retired. 500  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  THE  COURT  39  40  MR.  GRANT  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  THE  COURT  When you travelled there, how did you get there?  Just walk on foot.  How long would it take you to walk there from Kispiox?  I forget, it's a long time ago.  Now, yesterday you talked about an event of a xsiisxw  or settlement?  Yes.  And that involved the accident at Glen Vowell you  recall that we were talking about that?  Yeah.  Yeah.  Did that involve your House?  Yeah.  Was your House involved in that xsiisxw in Glen  Vowell?  Yeah.  Yeah.  No.  No.  What do you mean if it happens  to our House?  Okay.  Yes.  Let me ask the question.  Was there a xsiisxw  involving your House and this territory?  Yeah.  Okay.  Can you tell the court about that?  Yeah.  At the end of the Xsi Wis An Skit grandmother  told me, and great, both of them, and at the end they  climb the -- where the ridge is, and the ridge is  their boundary, but the other side of the ridge is  given to -- to the -- to both Antgulilbix and Tsibasaa  as a compensation because Yal is murdered on the ice  where -- where Xsagangaxda runs into Skeena River,  that's where it happened.  Just a second.  That's 310.  And I wouldn't say either it was in my grandmother's  time or great-grandmother, it happens thousands of  years ago.  Just one moment.  The number, was it 310?  Yes, 310 was the number.  Is that the place where the murder took place or is  that the ridge we're talking about?  This is Xsagangaxda, that is where the murder took  place?  Yes.  That's where it runs.  That's why they call it  Xsaxwhl Xsagangaxda.  Okay.  Go ahead.  Yeah.  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, before you start here, the iOl  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5    I  MR. GRANT  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  witness started to say "at the end of", and then she  used an Indian phrase, her grandmother told her that  the ridge was the boundary.  I didn't get the word  that went in, "at the end of", something.  Yes.  That was at the end of Xsi Wis An Skit there was  a ridge?  Yeah, yes.  That's number 301, My Lord.  And they climb after the end of Xsi Wis An Skit.  Okay.  And there was a ridge and on that -- the other side  the ridge, they said there was a tree standing there  and they -- they smear this tree with blood that's  their own paint, and there was a crest on the tree, a  sun.  A sun?  A sun, yes.  Why was there a sun put on there?  Because it belongs to the Giskaast, that's the --  The crest?  That's the Giskaast crest, yeah, and that tree  represents the compensation that's in exchange of  blood and it won't be taken back from us until the end  of the world.  It will be there.  Now, did your grandmother or your aunt see this tree?  She said she sees it, that's why she told me.  Okay.  I mean great-great-grandmother.  Okay.  Great-great-grandmother saw the tree?  Yeah.  Yeah.  Did this happen in her lifetime?  No.  She didn't say it happens in her lifetime.  Okay.  Now, I'd like to refer you again to the map,  Exhibit 17-9-B, and Xsi Wis An Skit goes along the  bottom of your boundary and then it stops up here?  Yes.  Now, do you know where this area is depicted or shown  on the map that was part of the settlement on the  other side of the ridge?  That looks like a ridge there.  Okay.  Do you want to just -- you can just point it to  the court so the judge can see what you're referring  to?  Yeah, there's a ridge there.  Okay.  And so that is where the xsiisxw is is this  northern sort of -- 502  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  THE  COURT  18  19  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  GRANT  26  THE  COURT  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  THE  COURT  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  Yeah.  It's on the other side, the ridge that was  given to the House.  Okay.  Do you want to put a three there, just  approximately?  A tree?  Not a tree, a three?  Oh, a three.  You don't have to draw.  I like my brother's family to see this because he  knows more about the map.  You'd like him to mark it then?  Yes.  Okay.  Well, we'll -- that's fine, we won't mark it,  but -- you can let him mark it.  Well, all right.  Never mind.  For the record she pointed to the --  She pointed to the right-hand side of that peninsula  extending out of the rest of the main body of the  territory at the top left of the map.  The top, yes, the top left of the map.  The  particular peninsula, which would be to the left of  the lake which is referred to on the map, is Dam ansa  Angwas.  Is it marked on the map?  Yes, it is, just for point of reference.  The lakes are there, but the word isn't written in  is it?  Yes, there is a word written in to the right of that  outside that -- just outside of the territory, when  you're facing the map to the right.  Oh, yes.  I'm just noting that because there are two sort of  points starting off.  I have serious trouble with that map.  There seems to  be a stream running along there and I would think the  contours run down to the stream, but that can't be  right because there are what appear to be lakes at the  top of the ridge.  Well, I suppose there could be  lakes up there.  Never mind, somebody will tell me  about it in due course.  Yes, I understand My Lord -- I certainly wouldn't  call it a creek because it seems that there's that  line that has little -- two little lines sticking out  of it along it.  Yes.  Which is some form of -- I think it's a  topographical mark of something, maybe a height of 503  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  THE COURT  3  MR. GRANT  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  Q  land reference.  :  All right.  That may —  I don't know, and we'll sort that out, but it  certainly doesn't appear to be a creek.  The way they say it, the land was -- that was given is  on the top on the other side the ridge and it goes  down on the other side, not way down.  So that before this settlement, your territory went to  the top of the ridge; is that right?  Yeah.  Yeah.  And after the settlement your territory moved partway  down --  Yeah.  -- the other side?  Yeah.  Now, is there a Gitksan term which refers to -- which  is used with respect to the xsiisxw or settlement  referring to -- until your heart is satisfied or your  heart is full?  Yeah, that's when they sing their Xsinaahlxw, their  Breath Song.  That's what we call Xsinaahlxw.  After you had the -- before you were divorced from  your husband, did he have a right to go onto  Antgulilbix's territory?  Yes.  After your divorce did he still have that right under  Gitksan law?  No.  You've referred to the wings of your House, the other  chiefs?  Yes.  Do they have a right to use Antgulilbix's territory?  Yeah.  Yeah.  That's how Uncle George, after he made  the map, and he includes the greatest until the  smallest of the child.  It doesn't matter if they were  babies or small and haven't got the name yet, but they  were all included for the territory.  Your brother Stanley has two sons named -- one named  George and one named Art Wilson?  Yeah.  Yeah.  Are they entitled to use your territory as the son of  Stanley?  Yeah.  They were entitled to use it as long as they  live and -- but they won't -- their family won't --  won't go there, just them.  Okay. 804  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   That's how -- when they call Am nigwootxw.  2 THE COURT: Have we got that word?  3 THE TRANSLATOR: It's number 12 on that list.  4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  5 MR. GRANT:  The first list, the first page of the list of Mary's  6 House?  7 THE TRANSLATOR: Uh-huh.  8 MR. GRANT:  Now —  9 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, but that seems to be different  10 from what Mrs. McKenzie said and I -- I wonder if I  10       11 can just make sure that I'm getting it from the  12 witness right.  13 Are you saying, Mrs. Johnson, that your sons, your  14 grandsons, the children of your son, can use the land  15 as long as they live?  16 MR. GRANT:  17 Q   It's her brother, My Lord, we've been referring to.  18 A   That's -- those are Stanley's children.  19 THE COURT: Stanley's children, all right.  So they're your  2 0 nephews?  21 THE WITNESS:   Yeah.  Yeah, and they were Wolves.  22 THE COURT:  Their mother is a Wolf, a member of the Wolf Clan?  23 THE WITNESS:   No, my mother is a Fireweed.  24 THE COURT:  No, no, their mother?  25 THE WITNESS:   Their mother is a Wolf, yeah, their mother's  26 chief name is Hawaaw.  27 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  But they can use the land of their  28 father as long as they live?  29 THE WITNESS:   Yeah.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q   After Stanley dies, will the person who takes the name  33 Tsibasaa, can he -- will they go to that person to use  34 the land?  35 A   Yeah, they will get permission and let them know  36 before they go, yeah.  37 Q   I'd like to ask you about some of the seasons and the  38 names of the months in Gitksan?  39 A   Oh, yes?  40 Q   Okay.  Could you tell the court what the name of the  41 month of March is in Gitksan and what it means?  42 A   It means -- the month of March is -- they call it Lasa  4 3 Hu'mal.  44 THE TRANSLATOR: Lasa Hu'mal, L-a-s-a H-u-'-m-a-l.  4 5 MR. GRANT:  4 6 Q   And what does that mean?  47 A   It means that's when they go around with their canoe. 805  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   That's when they start to travel?  2 A   Yeah.  3 Q   Okay.  What about the month of April?  4 A   They call the month of April Lasa ya'a, that's when  5 they caught the -- started to catch spring salmon.  6 MR. GRANT:   Is that what the name is?  7 THE TRANSLATOR: Lasa ya'a, L-a-s-a y-a-'-a.  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q   And what about the month of June?  10 A   They call it Lasa 'yanja.  11 Q   Okay.  I asked you June, and I guess I should ask you  12 May.  What is the month of May?  13 A   Oh, that's Lasa 'yanja, that's May.  14 Q   And what does it mean?  15 A   It means when the leaves came out.  16 MR. GRANT:  Can you spell that, please?  17 THE TRANSLATOR: Lasa 'yanja, L-a-s-a '-y-a-n-j-a.  18 THE COURT:  When the leaves come out?  19 MR. GRANT:  20 Q   Yes.  21 And what about the month of June?  22 A   That's Lasa maa'y, that's when the berries are -- are  23 beginning to -- beginning to ripe, Lasa maa'y.  24 Q   They're beginning to --  25 A   Not really ripe, but they call it Lasa maa'y.  2 6 Q   What's maa'y mean?  27 A   Berries.  28 Q   Okay.  So it's like the month of the berries?  2 9 A   Yeah.  3 0 MR. GRANT:  Go ahead.  31 THE TRANSLATOR: Lasa maa'y, L-a-s-a m-a-a-'-y.  32 MR. GRANT:  33 Q   What about the month of July?  34 A   Lasa 'wii hon.  35 THE TRANSLATOR: Lasa 'wii hon, L-a-s-a '-w-i-i h-o-n.  36 MR. GRANT:  That's "N"?  37 THE TRANSLATOR:  "N".  3 8 MR. GRANT:  39 Q   And what does that mean?  40 A   That's when all the fishes came up the river, Skeena  41 River.  42 Q   What about the month of August?  43 A   Lasa lik'i'insxw.  44 MR. GRANT:   And what does that mean?  Go ahead, you're waiting  45 for the spelling, go ahead.  46 THE TRANSLATOR: Lasa lik'i'insxw, L-a-s-a 1-i-k-'-i-'-i-n-s-x-w.  4 7 MR. GRANT: 806  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   And what does that mean?  2 A   That means when the grizzly bears are around and they  3 kill them.  4 Q   Okay.  What about the month of September?  5 A   That's Lasta Gan gwiikxw.  6 THE TRANSLATOR: Can I get her to say that again?  7 MR. GRANT:  8 Q   Could you say it again, please?  9 A   Lasta Gan gwiikxw.  10 THE TRANSLATOR:Lasta Gan gwiikxw, L-a-s-t-a G-, underlined, a-n  11 g-w-i-i-k-x-w.  12 MR. GRANT:  13 Q   And what does that name mean?  14 A   That means when they begin to hunt for -- for the  15 groundhogs.  16 Q   Now, you referred I think yesterday to the groundhogs.  17 Could you tell the court what is the -- or in the  18 earlier times when you were younger, what was the  19 groundhog used for?  Why is it so important to have a  20 season named after it?  21 A   I have seen them use it as a blanket.  They were  22 really warm and soft. They know how to make it, but ir  23 the -- in the ancient time they said they use it at  24 the Feast.  Each chief got one groundhog when they  25 hold a Feast, a great big Yukxw.  11       26 Q   Did you see groundhogs being used at Feasts when you  27 were young?  28 A   No, that's -- so they didn't hunt any groundhogs,  29 that's why they use money or merchandise today.  30 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  This may be an appropriate time, My Lord,  31 for a morning break.  I could break.  We're breaking  32 into a new area.  33 THE COURT: Yes.  All right.  We'll take the morning adjournment.  34 I propose, subject to any serious objections, to take  35 only an hour for lunch and then to adjourn at 3:30 to  36 assist our reporters hopefully to complete today's  37 transcript before they have to leave this evening, so  38 we'll take an hour for lunch and then go from 1:30 to  39 3:30 this afternoon.  Okay. Thank you.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 807  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS)  3  4 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  5 a true and accurate transcript of the  6 proceedings herein transcribed to the  7 best of my skill and ability.  9    10 Tanita S. French  11 Official Reporter  808  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:15 a.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   Mrs. Johnson, is there a plant that you know of that's  7 referred to as Devil's club?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And is it used by the Gitksan?  10 A   Yeah.  They call it huu'mst.  11 Q   Okay.  What is it used for by the Gitksan?  12 A   It used for medicine, they drink it.  13 Q   Can you explain how it's used?  14 A   They gather it and they scrape off the outside and  15 scrape the inside and the white spot, and they dry it  16 for future use.  17 Q   Did you know a man named John Brown at Gisagas?  18 A   Yes.  He comes from Kispiox, but he got sick while in  19 Gisgagas when he was young.  20 Q   And what kind of sickness did he have?  21 A   He got T.B.  22 Q   Can you tell the court what was done for him?  23 A   They made some Devil's club for him and they dry it  24 like I said, ready for him, and then about -- and they  25 roll it in little balls like the size of the large pea  26 and he chews those things and swallow them.  He was  27 dying they said, he is got nothing but skin and bone.  28 And they called this disease X'yansxw.  29 THE TRANSLATOR:  X'yansxw, X-underlined-y-a-n-s-x-w.  30 A  And another word they call it is X'yaahlxw, both  31 X'yansxw and X'yaahlxw.  32 MR. GRANT:" ~  33 Q   And do you know what it's called by the non-Gitksan?  34 A   They call it T.B.. 35 THE COURT:  Just a moment, I think we need a spelling.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-underlined-y-a-a-h-1-x-w.  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q   And did -- did -- what happened to John Brown after he  39 took this Devil's club?  40 A   He got better and he got his strength back again.  And  41 in later years after he is an elder man, he works for  42 the coast, he is a contractor of some boats, and a  43 government boat happens to come around to X-ray the  44 Indians.  And people are still in the suits or clothes  45 when they stand to have an X-ray, and there was one of  46 his lungs is half gone they said, and they were really  47 amazed to see what happened.  This was long before the 509  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  THE  COURT  23  24  25  26  MR.  GRANT  27  28  29  30  31  32  THE  COURT  33  A  34  THE  COURT  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  MR.  GRANT  47  white people find out a cure for T.B.  If they got  T.B. they would die right there, but not among the  Indians.  Did -- you remember John Brown in your lifetime?  Yeah.  And you saw him?  Yeah.  After he got better?  Yeah, yeah.  And you said -- who was it -- who was it that gave him  the Devil's club?  You said you were -- you referred  to "they".  Who were "they"?  Who give him?  Yes, the Devil's club, the medicine?  Yeah.  All the Indians know about the medicine, even  today they still know it.  Is it still used today?  Yeah, they still use it.  Do you know another plant that's referred to in  Gitksan as malgwasxw?  Yeah, malgwasxw.  :  Mr. Grant, how is this going to help this resolution  of this case?  There may be a great many of these  herbal remedies that are common all over the world.  How is it going to help us to resolve this case?  :  Well, the part of the defence, of course, is the  people's use of the territory and use of the resources  of the territory, My Lord.  And I understand that  there is a thesis that that's not what is done and  that that's a major defence being used, mounted,  and --  :  Well I can understand --  -- and the position is the use of these.  :  I can understand evidence about that if it relates  to use of the territory, but why do I have to hear  about six minutes of evidence about a Mr. John Brown  that's all hearsay?  As far as I can make out it's all  hearsay, she knew the man but she didn't say that she  was in any way involved in a personal way or any  personal knowledge of this.  And I don't want to stop  you from putting forth anything that's going to be of  assistance, but surely I can hear about uses made of  the territory in this context and others without  having this anecdotal intrusion, if I can call it  that.  :  Well, the only -- the only purpose of that is that  I'm concerned that a listing of the resources that are 510  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  10  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  14  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  19  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  used, for example, the use of these medicines, these  plants, doesn't bear on the weight of the -- the use  of the territory.  I mean there is a thesis that you  shall hear that the territory is not being used and  that this is ancient or old or -- that's why I'm  trying to bring it up to the contemporary.  I'm not seeking to stop you from calling that kind  of evidence, but it's these anecdotes that seem to me  to be firstly probably inadmissible, and secondly, not  the slightest bit helpful.  Well I'm concerned that if the -- if the -- if there  is evidence of the use of them now which may come out  in the form of in, as you say, an anecdotal fashion, I  think that it is important for you to appreciate the  context or the reality of the use of the resources  from the territory.  Well I don't think you are giving me much credit for  understanding the significance of evidence then, Mr.  Grant, with respect.  Oh, I give you a great deal of credit for that.  What I'm concerned about is by the time my friends are  through it may all be slightly blurred.  Well, you have to deal with that, of course, and I  don't want to in any way suggest that you can't call  evidence about the uses made of the territory in  connection with herbs or anything else.  But I don't  think, with respect, that we need these examples.  But  I'll -- well no, I think I have to say that I don't  think anything I have heard yet would persuade me that  what I just heard wasn't inadmissible hearsay.  I  think that story she told about lucky Mr. John Brown  is, in my view, is hearsay, and I am -- and not  within, in my view, within any exception.  I'll proceed, My Lord.  All right.  In your lifetime and before your lifetime, have --  from what your grandmother has told you, can you  explain to the court whether or not timber was used  or -- and is used from the territory?  Yeah.  They use it for the log houses, the Feast  Houses.  You referred yesterday to this fishing camp at Gwin  o ' op?  Yeah.  That was set up last summer?  Yeah. 811  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Was a smoke house built there?  2 A   Yeah.  3 Q   Were trees used from the territory?  4 A   Yeah  5 Q   I would like to move into another area, and that is  6 with respect to your territories, but regarding trap  7 lines.  Now this morning before the break, you said  8 that Uncle George Williams included all the children.  9 Now, when you -- could you explain what you were  10 referring to there?  11 A   Yeah.  I mean in our House.  12 Q   Yes?  13 A  When -- when he registered the land, he includes  14 the -- all the small children even if they are babies.  15 Q   Okay.  16 A   He includes them all on the register.  17 Q   Were you present when your Uncle George Williams  18 registered his -- the territory?  19 A   No.  But he just told us.  20 Q   Okay.  Do you know if your brother has registered the  21 territory or any of your territory?  Your brother  22 Stanley, has he got a registered trap line on your  23 territory?  24 A   He just -- he just followed Uncle George's register.  25 He got one of the maps.  2 6 Q   Do you know a man named Roy Wilson?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   What House is Roy Wilson in?  29 A  Ma'uus.  The House of Ma'uus.  They call his House  30 Ts'im ganaaw.  31 Q   Do you know a man named Norman Weget?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And what House is he in?  34 A   He is from the House of Luus, but he -- he got a name  35 from the House of Wii elaast.  36 MR. GRANT:  Maybe we could have those three names, Ma'uus, Luus  37 and Wii elaast.  Could you give the numbers for the  38 court record of Ma'uus on the plaintiffs' list?  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  Ma'uus is number 48.  4 0 MR. GRANT:  Luus?  41 THE TRANSLATOR:  Luus is 42.  42 MR. GRANT:  And Wii elaast?  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  Wii elaast is 72.  4 4 MR. GRANT:  45 Q   Okay.  Norman Weget is Lax Gibuu or Wolf?  46 A  Wolf. ~  47 Q   Okay.  And Ma'uus is in the Frog Clan? 512  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  Yeah.  Do you know a man named Charles Johnson?  Yes.  Is he alive now?  No.  He died long time ago.  Do you know what House he belonged to?  He belongs to the House of Dawamuxw.  Okay.  Would you give that spelling?  LATOR:  Number three.  Does Charles -- does Charles Johnson have any rights  to your territory?  No.  He got a right on his own territory, the House of  Dawamuxw.  When we refer to your northern territory --  Yeah.  -- does Dawamuxw have a territory near there?  Yeah.  It's -- that's our neighbour.  When -- were you at any meetings with your Uncle  George when an Indian agent came to talk to him about  the trap line?  No.  I would like to ask you about the effect of the  non-Indians and what they have done to your territory,  and let us start with the territory at Wilt gallii  bax?  Yes.  Could you tell the court what has been done to the  territory by the non-Indians?  The government sold the land to -- to a man, an  elderly white man and his name is Fred Fallensby, and  he got his fence right behind the smoke house at Wilt  gallii bax.  And another thing is the vegetable farm  34 today, that's on Wilt gallii bax' territory too.  35 Q   Is that at the same place where Fred Fallensby lived?  36 A   Yeah, the same.  That's just across the highway near  37 the Skeena River.  Also, they logged off the side of  38 the mountain that's called Andamhl.  39 Q   That's 322 on the list, and Wilt gallii bax is 332.  4 0 Go ahead.  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Now, when you say they logged off the side of Andamhl,  43 is that the side of the mountain that is on your  44 territory?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 Q   And —  47 A   They call this mountain Tsibasaa's hunting ground.  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9    THE TRA1  10    MR. GRA1  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33 513  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  MR. GRANT  28  THE TRANS  29  30  THE COURT  31  MR. GRANT  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Was it logged off when Stanley, your brother, was  younger?  I don't remember when it was logged off.  Okay.  What has been the effect on your territory of  the logging off of Andamhl?  It affects the furs, the furs will move away, the  animals will move away when there is logging on the  territory.  And also, it affects the creeks where the  fish goes up, and it affects the -- where they spawn,  where the place where they had the natural spawning  ground.  Are these some of the creeks on your territory?  No.  On the rest of the creeks.  Oh.  You mean the logging on your territory has  affected other creeks?  Yeah.  Did you used to go to different places to get berries?  Yes.  Can you tell the court where you used to go?  We used to go to Git an ax bisxw, a berry patch.  This  was --  Just one moment.   Three-forty.  Go ahead?  Yeah.  This smoke house belongs to -- to both Ax gigii  and 'Wii Hag'y.  My Auntie married to 'Wii Hag'y,  that's Samuel Johnson, and that's where we used to  live sometimes.  :  Spell those two names there?  LATOR:  Ax gigii, A-x-underlined space g-i-g-i-i.  'Wii  Hag'y, '-W-i-i, space H-a-g-'-y.  :  And what are those, please, two places?  No.  Those are two people.  Those are two people?  Yeah, two people from the same House.  Okay.  And is that what we now refer to as the House  of Delgam Uukw?  House of Ax gigii where the totem-pole stands with a  canoe on it.  In the photograph?  Yeah.  Okay.  Now, why did you go there to pick berries?  Because we live at their smoke house and there used to  be a lot of blueberries all around, but now there were  farmers living there today.  And can you -- do you still use those berry grounds?  No.  Are there berry grounds there today?  No. 814  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Where else has there been damage on the territories  2 that you have used?  3 A   Yeah.  We used to go to Kliiyem lax haa's berry patch  4 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  That's number?  5 THE TRANSLATOR:  Thirty-five.  6 MR. GRANT:  7 Q   Thirty-five, okay.  And where was that?  8 A   That's what they call Tsihl 'nii din, that's Kliiyem  9 lax haa's territory.  10 MR. GRANT:  Spelling please?  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  Tsihl 'nii din, T-s-i-h-1 space '-n-i-i space,  12 d-i-n.  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q   Okay.  You used to go there?  15 A   Yeah.  16 Q   Uh-huh.  And can you put that in a location, is it --  17 is that in relation to Kispiox village?  18 A   Yeah.  19 Q   Where is it?  20 A   You could cross the bridge at 17 mile and go up  21 further, a little further, then there is Tsihl 'nii  22 din.  23 Q   And that 17 mile bridge is a bridge in the Kispiox  24 valley?  25 A   Yeah.  26 Q   Which crosses the Kispiox River?  27 A   Yeah.  28 Q   Okay.  29 A  And now there were just farmers there, nobody goes to  30 pick berries.  31 Q   You can't get to -- there is no berry grounds there  32 now?  33 A   No.  34 Q   How did you used to harvest the berry grounds, how did  35 you make the berries produce?  36 A   Oh they just pick the berries, takes them a whole week  37 to pick berries, and they store the berries in a cool  38 place, and that's what they call laagya.  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  Laagya, 1-a-a-g-y-a.  4 0 MR. GRANT:  41 Q   Go ahead?  42 A  And at the end of the laagya, then they boil the  43 berries and then they dry them, and they could be kept  44 for a long time, store them in cold place.  45 Q   Did the people burn the berry grounds?  46 A   Oh, this was before the farmers were there.  Whenever  47 there is no berries and trees were growing, that's 815  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 what they call maxs gan, when the trees are growing on  2 the berry patches.  3 THE TRANSLATOR:  Maxs gan, m-a-x-underlined-s, space,  4 g-underlined-a-n.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   And go ahead?  7 A   Yeah.  And they burned the berry patch, and in a few  8 years the ground produce plenty of berries.  9 Q   Um-hmm.  Have you picked berries from your own  10 territory or from --  11 A   No.  12 Q   Have you picked berries from near where your southern  13 territory is?  14 A   No.  No place to pick berries.  Farmers everywhere.  15 The only place we could go is way way up to Stakeen  16 Road to get some huckleberries.  17 Q   That goes -- that's the road that goes to Mezziadin  18 Lake?  19 A   Yeah.  20 Q   Did your grandmother talk to you -- I mean your great-  21 great-grandmother talk to you about the first white  22 man that she saw?  23 A   Yeah.  24 Q   What did she tell you?  25 A   She said she happened to be staying with her  26 grandmother, and -- and a dog barked so she went out  27 and she came back running in, telling her grandmother  28 that some monsters came and they were holding a kind  29 of roots that they made out of -- roots that they made  30 to -- as a rope, and they call these roots dakhla  31 wist.  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  Dakhla wist is d-a-k-underlined-h-1-a, space,  33 w-i-s-t.  34 A  And after that, they understand it was the telephone  35 wire that she called dakhla wist.  3 6    MR. GRANT:  37 Q   Okay.  And what -- did she tell you anything about  38 these men, what did they do?  39 A   Yeah.  They took away the land she said.  They lived  40 just close to -- to where Hawaaw' cabin is at 'Naas  41 gan t'imi't.  42 THE COURT:  I'm not sure I understand that, Mr. Grant, but the  43 way I've got it is that when she -- that her great-  44 grandmother told her that when her grandmother -- or  45 that she was with her grandmother, and they saw a --  46 what I took to be a white man who had a telephone  47 line, and I'm not sure if that's what she meant. 516  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  MR.  GOLDI  21  22  THE  COURT  23  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  THE  COURT  27  28  29  30  31  MR.  GRANT  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I don't want to leave  it if I haven't understood her evidence correctly.  Okay.  When your great-great-grandmother saw these  people, she was living with her own grandmother; is  that right?  Yeah.  Okay.  And she had what she called rope -- they had  what she called ropes?  Yeah.  Made of roots?  Roots.  And she later told you that this is what she thought  was a telephone wire; is that right?  Yeah.  Do you -- do you mean telephone wire or telegraph  wire?  Telegraph wire.  Then you said --  EI:  I think that's a safe assumption, My Lord, since  the telephone hadn't been invented at that time.  :  That's what I'm trying to make sure, that we are not  doing violence to history here.  :  I'm sure it's been done but we tried to avoid it in  the beginning.  :  We may have, who knows.  But the impression I'm  getting then, is the first contact that this witness  knows about with Europeans is at a time when they were  stringing telegraph wires, is that a fair summary of  her evidence?  :  Well this is what -- she is describing what her  mother told her and what they had, and that appears to  be what --  :  Yes, all right.  Okay.  Now you said these men lived near Hawaaw' camp?  Yeah.  I was small and after Hawaaw' died, I have seen  a farmer below where the house stands where the cabin,  a log house.  Um-hmm?  And another farmer is close to the bridge, that's the  South 17 Mile Bridge.  There is another farmer there,  so that shows they already took Hawaaw' territory.  Okay.  But what --  This was still in the same grandmother that sees the  telephone wire.  So the people that she saw had a camp near Hawaaw' 817  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 territory; is that what she told you?  Was it the same  2 people that she saw?  3 A   No, no.  Different.  4 Q   Okay.  5 A   People, yeah.  6 Q   Did she talk to you about any other white people that  7 she saw when she was younger, I'm talking about your  8 great-great-grandmother?  9 A   Yeah.  Perhaps about middle-aged, when she was middle-  10 aged, and they live at the same cabin because that's  11 Hawaaw' territory.  And a young man came along, he  12 said -- and he got -- this young man got nothing to  13 eat.  And he -- on his hands were worn out under -- on  14 the knee and below the leg, and they took -- took him  15 in and feed him and this is -- they got another custom  16 among the Indians, they called chief's name -- their  17 dogs the chief name, and that's what they called  18 hluuhlxwm os.  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  Hluuhlxwm os, h-1-u-u-h-l-x-w-m, space, o-s?  20 A   So that's why they call this young man hox li'i,  21 that's one of our chief name in the clan.  22 MR. GRANT:  That's one of the names on the list I believe.  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  Twenty-eight.  2 4 MR. GRANT:  25 Q   Twenty-eight on the list of Mary's names.  26 And why -- why would they call -- you said they  27 would call their dogs by these names.  Why did they do  28 that?  29 A   Because.  30 THE COURT:  Is that what she said?  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q   You said they called this young man by these names, is  33 that right?  34 A   Yeah.  35 Q   By this name.  Why did they do that?  36 A   Oh, I said that they used to call their dogs the chief  37 names, all the Indians did that, and that's what --  38 that's why they are called -- remember few days ago  39 you asked me about Lucy Tait and they call her Noxs  4 0 Yal.  41 Q   They call her the mother -- that would have meant the  42 mother of Yal?  43 A   Yeah, of the chief.  4 4 Q   Um-hmm?  45 A   Yeah.  4 6 Q   But why do they -- why did they do that?  Why did they  47 give names to their dogs? Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  MR.  GOLDI  12  A  13  MR.  GRANT  14  MR.  GOLDI  15  16  17  MR.  GRANT  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  MR.  GRANT  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  THE  COURT  46  47  A  Because they love the dogs.  This man who was given this name, was he given any  rights to any territory?  No.  They just call him hluuhlxwm, that's why they --  just like what they did to the ordinary dogs, that's  what they did to him when they took care of him, and  gave him the name.  Do you remember when the reserves were set up?  No.  Maybe it was before I was born, but -- but my  mother told me that -- that there is --  EI:  Well —  They call —  :  Just a moment, just a moment, Mrs. Johnson.  EI:  We have heard a great deal of hearsay but we are  starting out as unmistakable hearsay.  On what basis  is this being submitted?  No.  I just wanted to ask you at this point, you  yourself don't remember the reserves being set up; is  that right?  No.  Okay.  But I was told --  :  All right.  I don't think we are going to ask you to  tell us what you were told at the moment, Mrs.  Johnson.  There is some rules of evidence about what your mother  told you, okay?  Yeah.  So the question I have when you were growing up,  you've described that first you lived at these fishing  sites?  Yeah.  And you lived on your husband's territory Wii minosik?  Yeah.  You've been on your own territory in the north?  Yeah.  So is it correct to say that you've lived in places  other than the -- the village for a large part of your  life?  You've lived outside of Kispiox at different  times in your life; is that right?  Yeah.  Just go out hunting for awhile, not just stay  away for many years.  :  You mean you don't stay away from Kispiox for many  years?  No.  That's my life.  If I go out on a trip, I'm 819  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 longing to go back there.  2 THE COURT:  Back to Kispiox?  3 A Yeah.  I'm longing to eat the real nice food there.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q Now in the description of your territory, you have --  6 there are some creeks that flow through your  7 territory, and a river?  8 A Yeah.  9 Q Xsi wis an skit?  10 A Yeah.  11 Q Do those creeks and does that river belong to  12 Antgulilbix?  13 A Yeah.  14 Q I would like to show you Exhibit 17 for the moment --  15 for a moment, tab -- tab 2, the seating chart.  When  16 you were describing the wings of the chief --  17 A Yes.  18 Q -- you described that Cheryl was not one of the wings  19 of the chief?  20 A Yeah.  Just a warn gyat, that's what we call it.  21 Q That's a warn gyat name?  22 A Yeah.  23 Q Okay.  Now —  24 A But she is -- she is the way she is, she is ready to  25 become a great chief some day.  2 6 Q And who gave her that name?  27 A Late Moses Morrison, that's former Gitludahl.  28 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a number for that?  29 THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 11.  3 0    MR. GRANT:  31 Q And is she in Gitludahl's House?  32 A Yes.  33 Q Is Gitludahl part of your wil'nat'ahl?  34 A Yeah.  35 Q And Gitludahl's House is of the Fireweed, the same  36 clan as yours?  37 A Yeah, yeah.  38 Q Is that always the way it is, with the wil'nat'ahl?  39 A Yeah, that's always how it is.  40 Q Okay.  41 A As far as we could remember and the history before  42 that.  43 Q Um-hmm.  And is your relation to Gitludahl's House an  44 old relationship then?  45 A Yeah.  46 Q Now, you described this morning what you meant by the  47 ancient time and you said that your grandmother had a 820  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 word for that?  2 A   Yeah.  3 Q   In your evidence, you've also described in the olden  4 time?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Is that more recent when you are saying in the olden  7 time, do you mean something more recent than in the  8 ancient time?  9 A  When I say the ancient time that's thousands and  10 thousands of years ago.  11 Q   Um-hmm?  12 A   Yeah.  13 Q   What about when you said in the olden time, is there a  14 Gitksan word for that?  15 A   It's the same word.  16 Q   Okay.  Now, one of the phrases or terms that you've  17 used is the term dax gyat?  18 A   Yeah. ~  19 Q   Can you explain, and I think you said something about  20 it was your aunt's power?  21 A   Yeah.  22 Q   Can you explain what dax gyat is to the Gitksan?  23 THE COURT:  How is that spelt, please, dax gyat?  24 THE TRANSLATOR:  Dax_gyat, d-a-x-underlined, space, g-y-a-t.  25 THE COURT:  G-y-a-t?  26 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  2 7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 8 A   Yeah.  2 9 MR. GRANT:  30 Q   Go ahead?  31 A  Andamhl near the Wilt gallii bax, and it goes past and  32 it includes Xsikadook till it gets to Xsan Max Hlo'o,  33 that's Tsibasaa, his dax gyat covers those mountain.  34 His power.  35 Q   Okay.  You were just referring to place names on the  36 territory near Wilt gallii bax?  37 A   Yeah.  38 Q   And that's Tsibasaa?  39 A   Yeah.  And all the fishing sites that covers his  4 0 power.  41 THE COURT:  I'm only guessing, but am I close to being right  42 when I suggest that these names of places are part of  43 Tsibasaa's power?  Is that what she's saying?  4 4 MR. GRANT:  45 Q   Yes.  She's just given place names on his map.  And  46 you are saying his fishing sites and territories on  47 this map are part of -- 321  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  THE COURT  8  9  10  MR. GRANT  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  THE COURT  18  19  20  MR. GRANT  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Yes.  Is there anything --  Everything covers his dax gyat and all the crests  and --  What about the adaawk?  The adaawk, yeah, and all the songs.  :  I still don't understand the distinction between dax  gyat and anything else I've heard.  Is it something  different from what we've heard about up to now?  :  Well you've heard this witness has referred to dax  gyat and she referred to it when she took on her  Aunt's name, I believe, yesterday in evidence.  And I  was asking her to explain to the court what is meant  by dax gyat, and she referred to it as the chief's  power, and now she is describing in more detail what  she means when she says "the chief's power".  :  Well I thought that she said that this dax gyat  related to Tsibasaa, and maybe that's the same thing  but I'm -- I'm not following this at the moment.  Well, I appreciate you advising me so I'll try to move  it into a clear area.  Does every chief of every House have dax gyat?  Yes. ~  Okay.  When you've described Tsibasaa's places, are  you using that as an example of Tsibasaa's power?  Yes.  And -- and you ask me about Wil Masxwit and they  said it's Antgulilbix whose hunting ground, and covers  the whole mountain, that's where they get the mountain  goats, that's their main food, and groundhogs.  So  that all those territory covers my dax gyat, that's  Antgulilbix.  No one will come along or register  anything.  And Wil Masxwit is 318 on the list, My Lord.  And  that's the mountain on -- a mountain on your  territory -- on or near your territory?  Yeah, at Xsu Wil Masxwit.  That's 317.  And is the territories that you've  described, do they belong to both Tsibasaa and  Antgulilbix?  Yes, both.  Throughout your evidence at different times you have  referred to "my family".  When you refer to "my  family", are you referring to your House?  Yes.  The House of Antgulilbix?  Yeah.  I'm just sick and tired sitting here and didn't  822  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 tell any history of our -- excuse me, Mr. Grant, did  2 you talk about that reserve?  3 Q   You wanted to talk about the reserve?  4 A   I want to tell about it, explain the reason.  5 Q   Okay, go ahead.  6 A   Because the -- I heard too, that the white people said  7 that the chiefs surrender their land --  8 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant, I'm sorry.  Apart from the question of  9 hearsay, I'm not sure what the witness is telling us.  10 I think she is telling us what some people told her  11 and she hasn't even said who.  12 MR. GRANT:  13 Q   Okay, just one moment.  Well, you were just going to  14 talk about the effect of the reserve on you?  15 A   Yeah.  16 Q   Okay.  17 A   Yeah.  18 Q   Okay.  Just before you start, the concern that the  19 court is referring to is that if it's something that  20 somebody else has told you about just now, that you  21 shouldn't say what somebody else has said.  But if  22 it's something that you know yourself?  23 A   Yeah.  24 Q   Okay.  You tell the court what you know about the  25 reserve?  26 A   I understand that.  27 Q   Okay.  Go ahead, Mrs. Johnson?  28 A   Yeah.  They pick out the chiefs that don't know  29 nothing.  In the olden days, nobody knows English,  30 just few people, and they don't write.  And one of the  31 chief that goes out with -- with those that survey the  32 reserve is James Green, and his chief name is  33 Tsuugyat.  34 Q   And did you want to say more?  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me, is that on the list?  36 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, I'm just — we'll just get the spelling  37 of that.  I don't believe that name is on the list.  38 THE TRANSLATOR:  Tsuugyat, T-s-u-u-g-y-a-t.  3 9 MR. GRANT:  40 Q   What House was he in?  41 A   From Kliiyem lax haa's House.  42 Q   That's 35, I believe, on the plaintiff's list.  43 A  And they went out and surveyed the land.  It was just  44 like a diamond they said.  They just go, go past where  45 the good ground is and where we will -- where the rest  46 are nothing but rocks.  So the way I feel about it is  47 we are fenced in, the Indians, they just put a fence 323  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  MR.  GOLDI  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  THE  COURT  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GRANT  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  around us like they did to the pigs or animals.  And  we can't -- we can't go out on our territory and do  some farming or anything on the outside.  So I am  hoping and praying that the Queen will know what they  did to us in the olden days when they took away our  ter -- inheritance.  And when you are referring to the reserves, are you  referring -- the places where they fenced you in, are  you referring to Kispiox?  Yeah.  On the reserve, yeah.  EI:  I don't think she said they were fenced in, she  said "it's like being fenced in."  Was it like being  Do you know what I  Well maybe you can clarify that.  fenced in or were you fenced in?  mean?  Do you understand?  Refer it again.  Okay.  When you were describing this, was it like you  were being fenced in or were you fenced in?  Yeah.  We are fenced in, all -- all the villages are  fenced in, not just us.  They will say something  themselves, too.  And we don't like being fenced in  like pigs and animals.  Okay.  I don't want to interrupt you.  You are  finished the answer now?  Yeah.  Okay.  I'm going to refer you to some of the people in  your House, and ask if they hold a warn gyat name or  warn simoogit name, okay, do you understand?  Yeah.  Carol Blackwater, is her name a warn gyat name?  Yes.  Her son, is his name a warn gyat name?  Yes.  Colette Johnson, is that -- is her name a warn gyat  name?  Yeah.  Marvin Gawa, is it a warn gyat name?  Yes, yeah.  Just a minute, sorry.  Colette Johnson, what was the  next one?  Marvin Gawa.  All right.  Warn gyat?  That is also a warn gyat name?  Yeah.  Paul Price, is that a warn gyat name? 324  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  A   Yes.  Q   Dennis Gawa is that a warn gyat name.  A   Yes.  Q   Jody -- I think it's Jody Wilson, Art Wilson's son, is  that a warn gyat name?  A   Yes.  Q   Effie Stevens, is that a warn gyat name?  A   Yeah.  Q   Margaret Stevens, is that a warn gyat name?  A   Yeah.  That's Effie Wilson.  THE COURT:  Sorry, Effie Wilson not Stevens?  MR. GRANT:  Q   Effie Wilson?  Oh, I see, it's Effie Wilson not Effie  Stevens, sorry.  I said Effie Stevens.  A  And Margaret Stevens after.  Q   Both Effie Wilson and Margaret Stevens have warn gyat  names?  A   Yeah.  Q   Alice Kruta's daughter, Alice junior?  A A chief name.  THE COURT: She is a —  MR. GRANT:  Q   That's a simoogit, a warn simoogit?  A   Yeah.  Q   And is that the name Aagat?  A   I call Tk'al guumtxw, that's Alice junior.  And then  next to her is her mother Aagat, that's another chief  name.  THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 25 on the names list.  THE COURT:  I didn't get the spelling of Alice junior's surname.  I've got K-r-u-d-a.  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  K-r-u-t-a.  Thank you.  And I'm sorry, 25 is which name?  THE TRANSLATOR:  Tk'al guumtxw is Alice.  3 6    MR. GRANT:  37 Q   Alice junior's name?  38 A  Alice junior Tk'al guumtxw.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT:  That's 25 on the list of Mary's names,  Tait, that name is on the list?  Aagat?  THE TRANSLATOR:  Aagat is number ten.  And Alice  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A  Q  Number ten on that list.  I haven't got a classification for Alice Tait.  Okay.  Alice Tait's name is a warn simoogit name?  Yeah.  They call her both Alice Kruta or Alice Tait.  Now, when -- when you refer to Alice's daughter Alice, 325  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  THE COURT  is she also known as Alice Johnson?  Yeah.  When you refer to a person having a warn gyat name --  Yeah.  -- does it mean that they may become a chief in the  future?  Yeah.  They will be -- some day they'll be selected to  be a higher chief.  Or if they are ready themselves  then they will be fit to get into a higher chief.  Now, have you made inquiries about a Feast Book -- the  Feast Book for Emily Latz' Funeral Feast?  Yes.  And that Feast Book has been unable to be found?  If it's not found when -- I ask him when I go up this  week.  And so you've never had the Feast Book yourself?  No.  Okay.  And then there is another about the last Feast on  January 3rd this year.  Um-hmm?  Is -- they said they will look for it, it's the Feast  about my Auntie Emily's stone and Moses Wilson's  stone.  Okay.  But you've been unable to obtain that Feast  Book?  Yeah.  And that was Annie Gawa, Leonard Gawa had that book?  Yeah, yeah.  Okay.  Do you know whether or not there was a man  named Jack Low who built anything on your territory,  the 17-9-B territory, that is the northern territory?  Yeah.  The other one that's his -- his son-in-law,  they call him Jack Lee.  Jack Lee?  Yeah.  He is the one that built a cabin near the lake  that Tarn Naa lax ts'inaasit Lake, without our  permission.  And he is guiding for the rich people,  that's why he did that, he is making money out of  everybody's territory.  He is -- he is just like a  thief for doing that to us.  Have you been paid anything for the use of your  territory?  No, no.  And I also heard too, lately, that Marty  Allen's son is going out as a guide somewhere on those  territory.  :  On your territory? 326  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  MR. GRANT  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  THE COURT  45  46  MR. GRANT  47  Q  No.  Not on your territory?  No.  Okay.  Now, I would like to ask you something about  the Gitksan law regarding if your father died and your  father had built a house in the Kispiox village?  Yeah.  Would that house go to the members of his House, or  could it be passed on to you?  Yeah.  Do you understand?  Yes.  That's how my grandfather is to Wilfred Gawa.  He gave him his house and his land in -- right in the  village, something that he builds himself will go to  his children.  And not about a hunting ground, because  it belongs to the family crest.  Okay.  And could you give me -- what's the name of  Wilfred's father and what House did he belong to?  My grandfather raised him, that's Daniel Gawa.  Um-hmm.  And which House was he in?  Ma'uus' House.  And that's in the Frog Clan?  Yeah.  Okay.  So he gave his territory in the village to Wilfred.  Okay.  His hunting territory -- did his hunting  territory go to Wilfred?  No.  Okay.  And is that -- him giving his house in the  village to Wilfred, is that all right under Gitksan  law?  Yes.  And can you --  But what he makes himself during his lifetime will go  to his children and grandchildren, but not about the  hunting ground, it strictly on the side of his Frog  Clan.  What about his fishing sites?  The same thing.  They would go?  Yeah, yeah.  His family are fishing at his fishing  site now.  :  Sorry, I didn't understand what she said.  The  fishing sites go to who, the House or the family?  I'm just going to clarify that. 827  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 When you said his family uses his fishing sites,  2 are you referring to the people in the house of  3 Ma'uus?  4 A   Yeah.  5 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, I notice it's 20 after 12, I wondered if we  6 could break now?  I believe I've almost completed my  7 direct, I would like a chance over lunch to complete  8 it.  9 THE COURT:  We will stand adjourned to 1:30.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned  11 till 1:30.  12  13 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:20 p.m.)  14  15 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  16 a true and accurate transcript of the  17 proceedings herein transcribed to the  18 best of my skill and ability.  19  20  21  22  23  24 Toni Kerekes,  25 O.R., R.P.R.  26 United Reporting Service Ltd.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS)  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  5 Witness, I remind you you're still under oath?  6 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  7 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant?  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q   Before lunch hour you were explaining about what Dax  10 gyat was.  Does Dax gyat have any connection with the  11 names such as the names you have received?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Can you explain it?  14 A   Like I told before, when a child got his or her first  15 name, and then later on he got another name, and  16 that's how they rises up to be a Dax gyat, rise up and  17 up until it gets to be a higher chief, so he has power  18 of all the names and all the territory and fishing  19 sites and all the mountains.  20 Q   You're finished are you?  Okay.  When you decided to  21 bring this court case on behalf of the members of your  22 House, who did you talk to in your House?  23 A   Yeah, I talked to my family, that's the House, while  24 they were -- this was in August 1984 when -- when --  25 after I talked to the family, then I signed paper at  26 the convention in Hazelton that I am willing to stand  27 in this court like this today.  28 Q   And that was your instructions to the lawyers?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   As far as you are concerned, do you still -- do you,  31 Antgulilbix, still own the territories that you have  32 described?  33 A   Yeah, even though the farmers -- the governments sell  34 it to the farmers, but it's still our land and I -- I  35 believe our grandchildren will know it too because we  36 already told them.  37 MR. GRANT: Those are all my questions.  38 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Goldie or Mr. Macaulay?  39  40 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE:  41 Q   Yes.  Thank you, My Lord.  42 Mrs. Johnson, as you have told His Lordship you're  43 the head of your House.  Mrs. McKenzie told us that  44 she was a princess; are you also one?  45 A   Yeah.  46 Q   And your clan, as you have stated, is the Fireweed  47 Clan? 329  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A Yes.  2 Q And your village is that of Kispiox?  3 A Yes.  4 Q Arising out of a question that my friend Mr. Grant put  5 to you earlier today about your village, is that part  6 of the reserve which has the same or a similar name?  7 A It's -- it's -- they just surveyed a piece of land  8 around the reserve.  9 Q So the village that you have spoken of is part of the  10 reserve?  11 A Yes.  12 Q Yes?  13 A Yeah, that's where we live inside that fence.  14 Q Yes?  15 A Yeah.  16 Q And you are a member of the band there?  17 A Yes.  18 Q Are you on what is known as the band list?  19 A Yeah.  2 0 Q And do you have a Department of Indian and Northern  21 Affairs' number?  22 A Yes.  23 Q Can you recall it for His Lordship?  24 A The number?  25 Q Yes?  2 6 A I got it with me.  27 Q Well, perhaps you can get it later on then?  2 8 A Yeah.  2 9 Q And did I understand from your evidence that you were  30 born in the village which is on the part of the  31 reserve?  32 A Yes.  33 Q And were your parents members of the band there?  34 A Yes.  35 Q And they lived in the village?  36 A Yeah.  37 Q And your grandparents?  38 A Yes.  39 Q I think you have told His Lordship that certainly  4 0 within your memory you have always lived at Kispiox  41 village?  42 A Yes.  43 Q And from what your elders have told you, the -- your  44 great-grandparents and those who came before them,  45 have all lived at Kispiox, at least for a long long  4 6 time?  47 A Yes. 330  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Can you tell His Lordship how many members there are  2 on the band list for this particular reserve and  3 village?  4 A  All the band members?  5 Q   Yes, just in round numbers?  6 A   I don't remember how many.  7 Q   Several hundred?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Can you say what the principal occupation is of the  10 people who live in the village and live on the  11 reserve?  12 A   Yeah, they go down the coast and fish and work down  13 there, and some are -- stay home and work around the  14 village.  15 Q   When you say go down to the coast, that is to --  16 A   That is during summertime --  17 Q   Yes.  To — sorry?  18 A   -- when the fishing season starts.  19 Q   They fish then?  They're fishermen that go down to be  20 fishermen at the coast?  21 A   Yeah.  22 Q   And do any of the people from the village go down to  23 work in the canneries?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And you say some work around the village?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Are any of them employed off the reserve, but still  28 live in the village?  Do any of them work in the  2 9 sawmills or --  30 A   Oh, just very few because a lot of mills shut down and  31 just few manage to get on to work.  32 Q   And those who work around the village, are they -- do  33 they keep livestock or do any farming?  34 A   No.  We can't keep livestock on the ground, I told  35 before, with nothing but rocks.  You can't put up any  36 farm, no place for farming, just a fence around us.  37 Q   And some of them have trap lines of course?  38 A   Yeah.  39 Q   Have you any idea of the numbers who work off the  40 reserve, such as the --  41 A   No, but I know they are very few.  42 Q   Now, I think -- do you remember we met in April when  43 I --  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   -- asked you some questions?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   At that time you told me that you were in receipt of a 331  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 pension I think of $600 a month; is that correct?  2 A Yes.  Yes.  3 Q Is that from the Federal Government or from the  4 Provincial Government or both?  5 A Both.  6 Q Thank you.  I think you have told my friend Mr. Grant  7 of fishing sites.  Were those fishing sites that you  8 described to him belonging to members of your House  9 and related Houses, or were those the fishing sites  10 that belonged to all of the people who live at  11 Kispiox?  12 A It belongs to -- to our House.  13 Q So there are other fishing sites?  14 A There were other.  Yes.  15 Q Yes.  And I take it there's electric light on the  16 reserve?  17 A Yes.  18 Q And that's from the B.C. Hydro —  19 A Yes.  20 Q — Authority is it?  21 A Yes.  22 Q And is the reserve connected to the provincial highway  23 system?  24 A Yes.  25 Q And I suppose members of the reserve own automobiles  26 and trucks?  27 A Yes.  28 Q Is there a school there?  29 A Yes.  3 0 Q And a church?  31 A Yeah.  32 Q And is there a nurses' residence there?  33 A Yes.  34 Q Do any of the children on the reserve attend school  35 elsewhere than the reserve?  36 A Yeah.  They attend high school in Hazelton.  37 Q Right.  Thank you.  Do any members of your House live  38 on other -- in other villages on other reserves?  39 A Yeah, some live in Hazelton.  4 0 Q Uh-huh?  41 A Yeah, some in South Hazelton.  42 Q Any in Kitwancool?  43 A No.  44 Q There are Houses of the Frog Clan in Kitwancool,  45 though, are they not?  46 A Yes.  Used to be in the olden days our family lives  47 there and they got a pole there and -- 832  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Your House and clan have fairly close connections then  2 with the Kitwancool, Gitksan?  3 A   No.  I was told one of the grandmother married in  4 Kitwancool.  5 Q   I see.  6 A  And all she owns is the pole and the house because the  7 chiefs there really respected her because her chief  8 name is Yal.  9 Q   Oh, yes.  10 A   Yeah.  11 Q   I want to refer you to a photograph under Tab 3 of  12 Exhibit 17 for identification.  This was the one that  13 my friend Mr. Grant spent some time with you.  Perhaps  14 if I may have either the -- yes, thank you.  This is a  15 much better photograph.  16 Mrs. Johnson, over on the right-hand side there  17 seems to be a building with a -- it looks like a  18 steeple?  19 A   Yeah, that's United church way over there.  20 Q   On the right-hand side --  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   — My Lord.  23 A   Yeah.  2 4    THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   Is that where the people of the village worship?  27 A   Yeah.  28 Q   And where burial ceremonies are held?  29 A   Yeah.  Yeah.  There's another church close though. It  30 wasn't on this picture.  Yeah, it was -- this picture  31 was taken before the church is built.  It's built  32 behind those buildings there and that's a Pentecostal  33 church.  34 Q   I see.  35 A   So we got two churches in the village.  36 Q   Do you recall when the Pentecostal church was built?  37 A   I think it's in the 60's.  38 Q   The 1960's?  39 A   Yeah.  Yeah.  40 Q   And this photograph was taken a long time before that?  41 A  A long time, yeah.  42 Q   Is the -- is the church that you have identified, the  43 United church, is it still standing or is it --  44 A   The reason is the first church with a tall steeple  45 burned down and they built another one and it has a  46 steeple too.  Maybe that's the old church that's  47 standing on there. 833  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Do you recall when the old one burnt down?  2 A   I think it's -- I remember when late Robert Wilson was  3 still alive and he felt really bad when the church  4 burnt down, and he died not long after that.  5 Q   And when do you think Robert Wilson died?  6 A   His family might know.  After Robert Wilson died then  7 late Jonathon Johnson took over.  That's a long time  8 and -- and after Jonathon Johnson died then late  9 George Wilson took over.  And after he died again then  10 Art Wilson.  See how many chiefs?  11 Q   Yes.  12 A   Yeah, so I know it's a long time when the church burnt  13 down.  14 Q   Starting in from another point --  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   -- you were pretty young when the church burnt down?  17 A   Yeah, yeah.  18 Q   Were you in school?  19 A   No.  I'm already married.  Yeah, I married really  20 young, maybe that's what you people call sweet 16.  21 Q   We'll keep on calling it that.  22 If I added 16 to the year you were born, would I  23 be getting close to the time the church burnt down?  24 A   Yeah, yeah.  25 MR. GOLDIE:   Thank you.  26 THE COURT:  Mrs. Johnson, these chiefs you mentioned, I think  27 you started with Robert Wilson and then Jonathon  28 Johnson and then George Wilson then Art Wilson, chiefs  29 of what, please?  30 THE WITNESS:   They were from Kliiyem lax haa's House.  They  31 were Wolves.  32 THE COURT:  Thank you.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  34 Q   I want to go back to that same photograph and -- the  35 one under Tab 4, and just ask you to look at those  36 two.  Some of these houses, which you have identified,  37 and others which are in the photographs that you  38 haven't identified, appear to be log houses and some  39 of them appear to use sawn lumber.  Was there a  40 sawmill in the village at that time?  41 A   I was told that they saw the lumber by hand when those  42 houses were built.  43 Q   I see.  44 A  And they did the same thing to that church that was  45 burnt down, but they are really smooth.  I don't know  46 how they do it.  47 Q   And in another one of the photographs, I believe, I'm 834  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 referring you now to Exhibit 18 which is another --  2 the large photograph?  3 A   Yeah.  4 Q   And again there was some question over the date that  5 this was taken.  I notice there appear to be windows.  6 Were there to your recollection glass in the windows  7 at that time?  8 A   Yeah, it -- there were glass windows on Hawaaw's  9 house.  10 Q   You're pointing to the one on the right-hand side?  11 A   Yeah.  12 Q   And how about the one to the left of it, same thing?  13 A   No, they were broken and it isn't used.  14 Q   I see.  15 A   Yeah.  16 Q   But there were glass in the windows at that time?  17 A   Yes.  Yeah.  18 Q   Do all of the people in the village today speak  19 Gitksan?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   All of them?  22 A   Yeah, just few didn't -- didn't know the language.  23 Q   Now, when we met in April, I asked you about the  24 chiefs in your House, and I also referred you to the  25 responses that you provided to a interrogatory?  2 6 A   Yeah.  27 Q   And I'm going to show you -- I'm putting before you a  28 photocopy of a page from the responses to the  29 interrogatories, and you will see in question 34 a  30 list of chiefs and I believe you have identified and  31 spoken of them all --  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   -- during your evidence in chief?  And making  34 allowance for the difference in spelling --  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   -- would you just look through that and confirm for me  37 that you have referred to all of them in your evidence  38 in chief?  39 A   Yeah.  There's the first one is Tsibasaa, that's  40 Stanley Wilson, the second is Yal.  41 THE COURT:  Did you want her to read these out?  42 MR. GOLDIE:  43 Q   No, you don't have to read them.  I just wanted you to  44 be satisfied that you ever referred to all of them.  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   I believe there are 20, and did I understand what you  47 had told Mr. Grant correctly, that those are the 835  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 chiefs of the House of Antgulilbix?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And the first one, as you have stated, is Tsibasaa  4 which is the -- and it is your brother who's the  5 holder of that name?  6 A Yes.  7 Q Was Tsibasaa ever a separate House?  8 A No.  9 Q It is the name of a high ranking chief in your House?  10 A Yes.  Yes.  11 Q And was Yal or Yal, Y-a-1 —  12 A Yal.  13 Q -- ever a separate House?  14 A No.  15 Q But he —  16 A Not in our village, just one House.  17 Q Yes.  The -- but that too, as you've stated, is a high  18 ranking name?  19 A Yes.  20 Q Now, I wanted to look at the genealogy for a minute,  21 which is part of Exhibit 17.  Well, perhaps I should  22 put the exhibit before you.  You recall Mr. Grant  23 asking you if that was correctly set out, --  24 A Yes.  25 Q -- the genealogy?  I notice in the upper left-hand  26 corner it states "Clan, Tsibasaa"; that's not correct,  27 though, is it?  28 A That's correct.  It's both Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix.  29 Q But isn't the clan Gisgagas?  30 A No, Kispiox.  31 MR. GOLDIE:   Well, what —  32 THE COURT:  I'm not sure she's following you, Mr. —  33 MR. GOLDIE: I'm sure it's my pronunciation.  34 THE COURT:  No, I don't think she's noticed the distinction.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  36 Q Well, I perhaps didn't draw it to her attention, but  37 in the upper right-hand there is the house name?  38 A Yeah.  39 Q And then it says "Clan, Tsibasaa"?  4 0 A Yeah.  41 Q And I thought your clan was Fireweed?  42 A Yeah, that's right Fireweed.  43 Q It's just a slip, isn't it, that Tsibasaa is  44 identified as a clan?  45 A Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix got the same House.  46 Q Oh, yes, yes, you're very clear on that.  47 A Yeah. 336  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  It was -- it was, I think you've agreed with me, that  Tsibasaa is not your clan, it is Fireweed that is your  clan, is it not?  He's a Fireweed too.  Oh, yes.  Yes.  All right.  Oh, by the way, the chiefs  that you listed as succeeding Robert Wilson who, if I  understood you correctly, was the person who was so  concerned about the burning down of the church, again  what House was that, was Robert Wilson's, the late  Robert Wilson's House?  Kliiyem lax haa's House.  Kliiyem lax haa.  Were any of the people that you've  mentioned band counsellors?  Yes.  Which of them were?  Do you mean Robert Wilson's --  Was he a band counsellor?  No.  No, he's an elderly man about that time and he's  a great chief.  He's Chief Wii'mogulsxw.  He sits next  to Kliiyem lax haa in the Wolf Clan.  COURT:  Do we have a number or spelling for that?  TRANSLATOR: Number 78.  COURT:  Seventy-eight.  That's Robert Wilson.  GOLDIE:  Q   You know what I mean when I say band counsellor, don't  you.  A   Yeah.  GOLDIE:   Were any of those people that you mentioned, the  chiefs that you mentioned, also band counsellors?  My Lord, I just -- I'm not sure -- I don't know --  the witness has indicated many names and many people.  I'm not sure if my friend is focusing on something  specific that the Robert Wilson series of people or  he's put question 34 to the witness and the genealogy  to the witness --  Yes.  All right.  And I think it's unreasonable to say are any of  these people band counsellors.  If he could narrow it  down?  Yes, I'm sure he can, can't you, Mr. Goldie?  Yes.  I am referring to those chiefs whom you named  as following Robert Wilson.  Well, I have those as Robert Wilson, Jonathon  Johnson.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  COURT:  George Wilson and Art Wilson.  WITNESS: Yeah.  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  THE COURT  MR.  THE  THE 837  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   Now, were any of them band counsellors?  3 A   Yeah, the last one is a young man, he's my brother's  4 son, Art Wilson, and he's a band counsellor, a  5 chief --  6 Q   All right.  Thank you.  7 A   -- what they call chief counsellor in the village.  8 Q   Now, I now want to go back to the genealogy that I  9 showed you, and I want to ask you whether you know who  10 prepared that?  11 A   Heather Harris because we ask her to do it.  12 Q   Right.  And you provided her with information?  13 A   Yeah.  14 Q   Yes.  The -- if I understand the genealogy correctly,  15 Mrs. Johnson, and if I don't, please correct me, it is  16 not a genealogy of all of the members of your House?  17 A   That's all the members, even though they live far  18 away, but she found out where they are.  19 Q   Yes, but -- yes, I'm not referring to where they live,  20 but the genealogy is concerned with you?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And the people who are related by blood to you is it  23 not?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Yes?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Because there are many more members of your House --  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   -- that are shown on the genealogy --  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   — in Exhibit 17?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Yes?  34 A   So -- so we want them all to be included in our  35 territory.  36 Q   Yes.  But all of the chiefs of your House are found on  37 the genealogy; is that correct?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Yes.  And is it correct that it is the group of -- it  40 is from that group of 20 chiefs that the high chiefs  41 of your House will come in the future?  42 A   Yes.  Yes.  Any one will be selected or any one will  43 be ready to -- to do the hard work.  44 Q   Yes.  How many members are there of your House in  45 total?  46 A   I didn't count them.  There were so many grandchildren  47 and great-great-grandchildren. 33E  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Would I be far off if I said somewhere between a  2 hundred and twenty-five and a hundred and fifty?  3 A   I think so.  4 Q   You think I might be far off.  Would that be about the  5 right number?  6 A   Yeah.  7 Q   But it is only from the two that the chiefs will come?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Now, Mr. Grant today talked to you in some measure  10 about the territories of your House, and am I correct  11 in my understanding that it is your evidence that the  12 territories of the House shown on the map, or maps,  13 which are now marked as Exhibit 17-9-A and 17-9-B,  14 those are the territories of Antgulilbix, and in  15 brackets after the words -- that word is "Tsibasaa"  16 and those have always been your territories?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And there have been no changes to those territories,  19 except for the addition in the northern territory of  20 land which was granted to your House as compensation?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Yes.  Now, I'm going to direct your attention to the  23 southern territory which Mr. Grant referred you to  24 this morning, that's Exhibit 17-9-A there.  If I  25 understood the evidence that you gave this morning,  26 there has been a change in the boundary, the northern  27 boundary, of that territory; is that correct?  28 A  What do you call the northern boundary, Wil Masxwit?  29 The end of the boundary is Wil Masxwit.  30 Q   It's the boundary that is now marked by a creek or  31 stream and I think it is number 18 -- 318 on Mr.  32 Grant's list, Wil Masxwit?  33 A   Yeah.  34 Q   Is that it?  If I understood his evidence correctly,  35 there has been a change in that boundary -- not his  36 evidence, your evidence, a change in that boundary; is  37 that correct?  38 A   There's no change.  39 Q   All right.  40 A   It's always the same.  41 Q   All right.  I'll come back to that in a minute then.  42 Do you remember me showing you the map which was  43 attached to your response to your interrogatory and it  44 was marked as Exhibit 3 on your examination for  45 discovery?  Do you remember me discussing that one?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Yes.  Now, at that time the heavy line which marked 839  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 the boundary of Antgulilbix --  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   -- was considerably further north or upstream in the  4 upstream direction of the Skeena River and there was a  5 territory below that which was marked Tsibasaa, and  6 you explained to me that Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix are  7 the same?  8 A   Yeah.  9 Q   I mean the same House?  10 A   Yeah, same House.  11 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, wouldn't that be south if north is as  12 shown on the legend?  13 MR. GOLDIE: Well, let me hand up to Your Lordship the exhibit,  14 and I was referring to the heavy dark line as being  15 further north than what is presently shown on Exhibit  16 17-9-A.  17 THE COURT:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Yes.  Yes.  18 MR. GOLDIE: The effect of the change was simply to take out the  19 division between Antgulilbix and Tsibasaa --  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. GOLDIE: -- so far as that boundary was concerned.  22 THE COURT:  That's right.  You're quite right.  I was misled by  23 your reference to item 318 a moment ago which was the  24 south.  25 MR. GOLDIE: Yes, that's the northern end of it.  26 THE COURT:  Yes. I know what you mean now.  Thank you.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  28 Q   Now, at the time when we were talking about this in  29 April, and with the change of the dark line being to  30 include Tsibasaa's --  31 A   Oh, yes.  32 Q   -- territory?  33 A   Is this the same map that you told me late Chris  34 Harris made?  35 Q   No, I'll come to that.  3 6 A   Oh.  37 Q   I'll come to that.  No.  This was the one that was  38 attached to the responses to the interrogatories?  39 A   Oh, yeah.  40 Q   And it was -- it was my understanding of what you told  41 me that the -- with the removal of the line between  42 the -- Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix, that was the  43 territory, the southern territory of Antgulilbix.  44 Now, I'll refer you to the questions and answers  45 that I asked you at the time and I'll have the  46 original here in -- I'm going to refer to questions 44  47 and 45.  Question 44: 840  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  "Q  A  Q  A  Now, Mrs. Johnson there came with those  interrogatories, or the responses to those  interrogatories, two maps; does your house  have two territories?  Yeah, right, right close near to the  village, yeah.  And the other one is out near Swan Lake?  Yeah, way out."  Do you remember me asking you those questions and  you giving those answers?  Yes.  And then I went on and I put before you the document  in question, and I'm going to refer to questions 47 to  53.  And when I ask you this, read you these  questions, Mrs. Johnson I want you to bear in mind  that this was what we were talking about?  Uh-huh.  Question 47:  "Q     Mrs. Johnson, does that show where your  territory is?  A     Yeah.  Q     Now, below the heavy line which outlines  what I understand to be your territory there  is a territory with the name Tsibasaa in it?  A     Yes.  Q     Is that Stanley Wilson's?  A     Yeah, that's the mountain.  That's what they  call where, where the moon shines on the  mountain, name is An t'amtxw."  Well, I won't try and pronounce it, but it's one  that is --  THE TRANSLATOR: Three-twenty-two.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Yes.  Spelled a little differently now, but --  "Q     Can you tell me where that is?  A     It's behind An t'amtxw, is behind the Glen  Vowell village.  Q     I want to show you something which I want to  ask you about.  The heavy line is  interrupted when it comes to a mountain  which is called Sikadook.  A     Sikadook. 841  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q     That is not the mountain that you are  referring to?  A     No, it's, it's a very large mountain and the  loggers logged off the side, the whole side  of it, and they have in the ancient time,  they have a trapline below the mountain, and  on the top of the mountain, that's where  they get their main food, like groundhogs  and used the skin for clothing and feasts.  Q     And whose territory is the mountain,  Tsibasaa's or your territory?  A     Tsibasaa."  Now, we later came to the understanding that  Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix are the same?  A   Yes.  Q   But subject to that, do you remember me asking those  questions and did you give those answers?  A   Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:   Now —  MR. GRANT: My Lord, I just want to -- there was an interjection  in there which I think is maybe relevant to what my  friend is leading to and that is on page 9, and I'd  ask that that as well be read into the record, which  is an explanation of the maps, which I say "Before you  answer I want to put on the record that these, these  maps which were put in with the Exhibits, are all  labelled as 'draft copies'. That there are -- I have  been instructed..." --  THE COURT:  You don't need to read it, I've read it.  Well, I  think that, coming as it does in the context, it  should be part of the evidence.  It's not for your  friend to put in or for you to put in.  MR. GRANT: I just ask that it be put in the context of that.  THE COURT:  Yes, it's sufficiently connected that I'll put it in  as part of the evidence in the case.  MR. GRANT: The document is marked "draft copy".  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  There's no particular mystery about that.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   And you remember Mr. Grant's other interjection at  that time in which he advised us that on the final map  the heavy line would be taken out?  A   Yeah.  MR. GOLDIE:   And this has been done on the map that is now  produced here and is marked Exhibit 17-9-A, and by 842  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 that one can see that that heavy line has been taken  2 out; would you agree with that, just comparing the  3 two?  4 THE COURT:  Well, I can see that.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   Yes:  Subject, as I say, to that correction or  7 interjection by Mr. Grant, and having your memory  8 refreshed by that recollection, would you agree with  9 me that on April 14th you told me that you thought the  10 map, which was marked "draft copy", was in fact a  11 depiction of your territory?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   How did you come to that conclusion?  Did you sit down  14 and look at the map before the interrogatory was  15 sworn, or -- just tell me about that?  16 A   Oh, the reason of the change?  Do you mean the reason  17 why the map is changed?  18 Q   Yes.  First tell me why you thought the map marked  19 "draft copy" was the right map, if I may put it that  20 way, the right way to show the boundaries of your  21 territory?  22 A   Yes.  The reason is because some other family owns the  23 other side and some on that side, so that's why it's  24 correct.  25 Q   Well, I'm not too sure that I quite understand that,  26 but perhaps I can get at it another way.  Before you  27 swore the -- took an affidavit verifying the  28 correctness of the responses to the interrogatory, did  29 somebody explain that map to you?  Perhaps, if I may  30 assist you, when you first looked at that map --  31 A   Yeah.  32 Q   -- if you can cast your mind back a bit, did you have  33 anything of your own to compare it with, or did you  34 have a discussion with any members of your family, any  35 of your chiefs, in which you satisfied yourself that  36 the proper boundaries were shown there?  37 A   Someone showed me that -- that Ma'uus owns the  38 northern part of -- that's the other side, Xsikadook.  39 Our boundary is the creek.  4 0 Q   Uh-huh?  41 A   So -- so the creek covers our boundary where Gyadim  42 Lax ts'inaast comes from.  43 Q   And can you tell His Lordship who told you that?  44 A   Neil showed me the map of Ma'uus, Neil Sterritt, and  45 he said that Ma'uus owns the other side.  That's what  46 I told in the court this morning.  47 Q   Yes? 843  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A  And that Jonathon Johnson said it belongs to Ma'uus,  2 so I believe what Jonathon Johnson said, late Jonathon  3 Johnson.  4 Q   Yes.  Well, was it Mr. Sterritt who told you what  5 Jonathon Johnson had said?  6 A   Yeah, and he showed to me the map, the very old map,  7 and our boundary is on there.  And Luutkudziiwas owns  8 on that side of -- of Andamhl too.  9 Q   Well, that was what you told His Lordship this  10 morning?  11 A   Yeah.  12 MR. GOLDIE:   And I think you said that you learned of that only  13 a few days ago?  14 MR. GRANT: My Lord, that was with respect to Ma'uus she  15 indicated she only learned a few days ago.  She said  16 about Luutkudziiwas yesterday as well as this morning?  17 THE WITNESS:   Yeah.  18 THE COURT:  My recollection is with Mr. Grant at the moment Mr.  19 Goldie.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  21 Q   Yes.  I'm not referring to Luutkudziiwas, I'm  22 referring to Ma'uus?  23 A   Yeah, that's what I said this morning, that I didn't  24 know before --  25 Q   Yes.  26 A   -- because --  27 Q   I understand.  So that when you looked at what was  28 marked as Exhibit 3 on your examination, when you  29 first saw that?  30 A   Yeah.  31 Q   And the -- the affidavit was sworn August the 7th,  32 1986, back at that time you were not aware that  33 Ma'uus' boundary was different than what was shown on  34 this map, were you?  35 A   No.  I was told by my grandmother and Auntie Emily  36 latter that our boundary is -- is Xsan Max Hlo'o,  37 that's the creek and we didn't claim Ma'uus'  38 territory.  39 Q   You were told by your grandmother and by your aunt  40 that your boundary was the creek, which is shown on  41 Exhibit 3, right down to the Skeena River; is that not  42 correct?  43 A   To -- the creek goes into Kispiox.  44 MR. GOLDIE:   I'm sorry.  Yes.  Thank you.  So —  45 MR. GRANT: Just one moment, My Lord, I just want to note for the  46 record that the name that she gave was 320 --  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes. 844  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  GRANT: — on the list.  COURT:  Xsan Max Hlo'o.  Yes.  GRANT: Xsan Max Hlo'o.  GOLDIE:  Q   Well, the boundary shown on Exhibit 3 to your  discovery, the 1986 map, what is that? Tell His  Lordship what the name of the creek is that is shown  there?  A   That's the -- do you mean the creek that runs from  Andamhl?  Q   Yes, it's this creek here.  Can you assist me, Madam  Translator?  The name of the creek that is shown as  the northern boundary -- excuse me, I'm showing it to  the translator.  A   Yes, Xsu Wil Masxwit.  Q   Yes?  A   That's on the way up north at -- there's a mountain  behind Xsikadook and --  GOLDIE:   Yes.  And what is the number of that please, Miss  Steven?  TRANSLATOR: Three-twenty-six(sic).  GOLDIE:  Three-twenty-six, yes.  COURT: Is that Xsikadook?  GOLDIE:  No, the —  :E:  It's 317.  GOLDIE:  We're now shifted up to the northern boundary of  Exhibit 3 of the -- Your Lordship doesn't --  COURT:  I'm not looking at that, yes.  TRANSLATOR: It's 317 on the list.  COURT: The 1986 map shows creek at northern boundary as what  number?  GOLDIE: Three-seventeen.  COURT:  Yes.  GOLDIE:  Q   And is that the boundary that your grandmother and  your aunt --  A   No.  No.  It was -- it was another -- another hunting  ground.  Q   I see.  A   Yeah, that's the third hunting ground near the  village.  That's the creek, and it comes from the  mountain that we call Wil Masxwit.  Q   Yes?  A   That's why they call that creek Xsu Wil Masxwit.  Q   But that was --  A  And there's a very small creek that runs down between  Xsikadook and Ma'uus' territory is what they call Xsan  1  MR.  2  THE  3  MR.  4  MR.  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  MR.  20  21  THE  22  MR.  23  THE  24  MR.  25  VOI  26  MR.  27  28  THE  29  THE  30  THE  31  32  MR.  33  THE  34  MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 345  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Max Hlo'o.  That's where our village got the water.  There's a damn there.  MR. GOLDIE:   Yes, but if I may just be sure of one thing,  please.  Just one moment.  Just one moment, My Lord, I just want to be sure that  that was 320 that she referred to.  THE COURT: Yes, Xsan Max Hlo'o.  That's 320.  MR. GOLDIE:  That is not marked on Exhibit 3.  THE COURT:  I see.  MR. GOLDIE: And the creek that is the boundary, My Lord, is not  317, if I understand it correctly -- is 317.  THE COURT:  But that's the northern boundary?  MR. GOLDIE: That's the northern boundary.  THE COURT:  Three-seventeen was the northern boundary on the --  MR. GOLDIE: On the 1986 map.  Does Your Lordship — you don't  have a copy of the 1986 map, do you?  THE COURT:  No.  MR. GOLDIE:  Would you hand that up, please?  THE COURT: All right.  My Lord, I just want it to be clear on the record the  name of the creek that she was describing that her  grandmother described to her, that's why I was --  You say that's 317?  No, that's 320.  Oh, yes, well, that's this other boundary though.  No, if you look at exhibit --  It is by the --  -- 17-9-A, the northern boundary of the territory on  that map, which was tendered --  Yes?  — in Exhibit 17, is 320.  I don't think so, Mr. Grant, but I may be wrong.  Well, you --  I was told that the -- that 320 was Xsan Max Hlo'o  which is certainly the -- oh, well, I think that I  know what's wrong here.  Your arrow --  My arrow is looking the wrong way.  You're looking at it -- you're looking at it with the  south at the top --  Yes, that's right.  -- so that's  It's usual to put the "N" for North near the top of  the arrow, you've got it at the bottom of the arrow.  That's what's got me all mixed up.  MR. GRANT: I won't speak to the cartographer with respect of  MR. GRANT:  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT:  MR.GRANT:  THE COURT: 846  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 where the "N" goes.  2 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, we have to take an adjournment to change  3 reporters anyway, is this a convenient time to do it?  4 MR. GOLDIE: Yes, sure.  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  6  7 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  8  9 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  10 a true and accurate transcript of the  11 proceedings herein transcribed to the  12 best of my skill and ability.  13  14  15    16 Tanita S. French  17 Official Reporter  847  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Goldie 1        1 (PROCEEDINGS  RECONVENED AT 2:45 p.m.)  2  t's where our village got the water.  2 There's a damn there.  3 MR. GOLDIE:   Yes, but if I may just be sure of one thing,  4 please.  5 THE COURT:  Just one moment.  6 MR. GRANT: Just one moment, My Lord, I just want to be sure that  7 that was 320 that she referred to.  8 THE COURT: Yes, Xsan Max Hlo'o.  That's 320.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  That is not marked on Exhibit 3.  8       10    THE COURT:  I see.  11 MR. GOLDIE: And the creek that is the boundary, My Lord, is not  12 317, if I understand it correctly -- is 317.  13 THE COURT:  But that's the northern boundary?  14 MR. GOLDIE: That's the northern boundary.  15 THE COURT:  Three-seventeen was the northern boundary on the --  16 MR. GOLDIE: On the 1986 map.  Does Your Lordship — you don't  17 have a copy of the 1986 map, do you?  18 THE COURT:  No.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Would you hand that up, please?  2 0    THE COURT: All right.  21    MR. GRANT: My L 847  Mary   Johnson   (tor   Plaintiffs)  Cross  exam   by   Mr.   Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS  RECONVENED AT  2:45   p.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:     Order   in court.  4 hR.  GRANT:     My  Lora,   before my  friend proceeds   I  do want to  5 aavise   the  court  of   something that may   assist my  6 friend.  7 MR.   GOLDIE:      I   ooubt   it.  8 MR.   GRANT:     His  optimism  is   overwhelming.  9 MR.   GOLDIE:    Basea on experience.  10 MR.  GRANT:     With  respect  to Exhibit  17-9-A and   the  document  11 which  is Exhibit  3,   we will   be  leading evidence  as to  12 why   the  process  through which   that  boundary   changed,  13 ana  the  evidence will   be  led through  Mr.   Sterritt as  14 to why   those  —   the   bounaary   on Exhibit   17-9-A is  15 aifferent.     And the  explanation as given can be  16 introauceo at   some   time.  17 MR.   GOLDIE:     My  Lord,   excuse me,   I  don't  think that evidence  18 should  be   given in  the  presence   of   the witness,  with  19 great  respect.  20 MR.   GRANT:     I  don't mind if  my   friena wishes  the witness  to be  21 excused for  a minute.  22 THE  COURT:     I  don't  see   the  need for   it,   now   that   I've  23 discovered  that   I'm   the   problem.     Why   don't we just  24 get  on with   the  evidence.  25 MR.  GRANT:     All   I'm  suggesting,   My  Lora,   is   that we  have   spent  26 an extremely   large  amount   of   time  on  these maps,   and  ]  27 want you to  be  aware   of   the fact   that  the  explanation  28 for   these   changes will   be   given and  —  29 THE   COURT:     No,   I   think  Mr.  Goldie  is   right,   the less  said in  30 the  presence   of   the witness   the  better.     Let's just  31 get  on with   the   case,   now   that   I've figured out what  32 north means,   I  can —   I  think  I   can now  follow what  33 you  are   trying  to  say.     But you'll  have  to excuse me  34 for  just  a moment,   Mr.   Goldie,   while   I  remark my   —  35 All   right   I'm with you  now,   thank you.  36 MR.   GOLDIE:     Your Loraship has seen  that  the  one  has  to be  laid  37 on its  side   to  get   the   north   up,  and   the   others  —  38 coula  I  have   the  1986 map marked as an exhibit,   My  39 Lord?  40 THE   COURT:     Yes:     That will   be  exhibit?  41 THE  REGISTRAR:     Nineteen.  42  43 (EXHIBIT  19   -   1986  MAP)  44  45 MR.   GOLDIE:     And  coula  I   have   the  Exhibit  17-9-A,   please.  46 THE  REGISTRAR:      It's   right here.  4 7 MR.   GOLDIE: 848  Mary   Johnson   (for   Plaintiffs)  Cross exam   by   Mr.   Goldie  1 Q       Yes,   thank you.  2 Mrs.   Johnson,   I wonder  if you would be   good enough  3 to mark on  those   two exhibits,   the mountain which you  4 referred to yesteraay   in your   evidence,   and this is in  5 the   transcript at  page  773,   you  described  — you were  6 describing  the  location of  fishing sites?  7 A       Yes.  8 Q       Ano you said,   answer,   at line  39:  9  10 A     "There  is one   up at what they   call  Miinhl  11 Antseloa."  12  13 A      Yes.  14 Q       Question:  15  16 Q     "Number   335.     Yes?    And why   is it called  17 that  name?  18 A    Because   of   that little mountain.     You  19 could  see   the little mountain  standing,  20 and there's a  look-out   on the   top and—  21 and on  the   side   of   this mountain  there's  22 a  trail   goes around it and the  stones  23 were   so  thin around  the   side   of   the  24 mountain.     That's what  they   call   these  25 stones,   An Saaloa'm lo'op.     They were  26 smooth?"  27  28 A       An Saalda'm lo'op.  29 Q       Lo'op,   thank you.     Can you find that little mountain  30 for me  on  these maps?    Ano  if   I may  assist you,   I'm  31 going  to point  to what   I  understand is the —  32 identified as   335.     Can you  —  are you able  to find  33 that for me?    Let me ask you  this:     Is  the —  is the  34 mountain at Ansa Luu Hlo'os  location,   the little  35 mountain?  36 A       Oh,   do you mean an tselda,   the little mountain?  37 Q       Yes,   that's  one question.  38 A      Oh.     There was  so many   mountains.  39 Q       Yeah.     Well,   let me ask you  this,   I'm  going  to direct  40 your   attention  to what   I  understand is a mountain Ansa  41 Luu Hlo'os.     Is   that  a mountain?    What  ooes —  42 MR.   GRANT:     Maybe   the  interpreter   can  pronounce  it for  her,   Mr.  43 Goloie.  44 THE   INTERPRETER:     Can  I   see   this?  45 MR.   GOLDIE:      Yes.  46 THE   INTERPRETER:     Ansa  Luu Hlo'os.  47 A       Yeah.     That's   the mountain Jonathon  said Ma'uus owned/ 849  Mary   Johnson   (for   Plaintiffs)  Cross exam   by   Mr.   Goldie  1 the  name  is Ansa Luu Hlo'os  2 MR.   GOLDIE:  3 Q       On Exhibit  17-9-A,   would you put  a  circle around that  4 mountain,   please?  5 A       Around  this?  6 Q       Yes.     Just a   circle  around  the   name.  7 THE  COURT:     Is  that  the mountain of  little  stones?  8 MR.   GOLDIE:     Well   I'm —   I want  to ask her   that.  9 THE  COURT:     All   right,   I'll   let you ask her.  10 MR.   GOLDIE:  11 Q       Is  that  the mountain of  little  stones  that you  12 referred to when you were identifying  the fishing  13 site?  14 A       No.  15 Q       Where —  16 A       That's --   that's near   the village   next  to Xsikadook is  17 where  Ansa Luu Hlo'os   stanas.     But  the mountain you  18 referred to me is at  the  four mile,   what  they   call   the  19 four mile way   up  the Skeena  River.  20 Q       Thank you.     Not even on these maps?  21 A       No.  22 Q       All   right.     Well  let's  go  back  to the —   to the  23 mountain  that —  24 A       It's about  the  fishing site,   that's why  we  talk about.  25 Q       Yeah.     Now   referring you  to Exhibit  19,   would you  26 circle  on that map the  same mountain that you  circled  27 on Exhibit   17-9-A?  28 A      Where  the  Ansa Luu Hlo'os  is?  29 Q       Is  that it  there?  30 A      Oh  this,   yeah,   that's the  same.  31 Q       Same mountain?  32 A       Yeah.  33 Q       All   right.     Would you put  a  circle around that,  34 please.  35 A       Yeah.  36 Q       All   right,   thank you.  37 MR.   GRANT:     For   the   record,   My   Lord,   the witness  looked at both  38 names ano  it you look at  the   two maps  the   two  names  39 are   the  same,   and she looked at  them  both  before  she  40 marked   them.  41 MR.   GOLDIE:    Would you like   to hand those   two  up  to His  42 Loroship?  43 THE   COURT:      Yes.  44 MR.   GOLDIE:  45 Q       Now,   in April   of   this year,   that mountain was in your  46 territory,  at least  that's what you  thought at  the  47 time? 850  Mary  Johnson   (for   Plaintiffs)  Cross exam   by   Mr.  Goldie  1 A       Yes.  2 Q       And  then as you say  a few  days ago,   you learned that  3 Jonathon  said  that was in  the   territory   of   Ma'uus?  4 A       Yeah,   that was last, week when  I —  5 Q       Yes?  6 A      When I was informed,   because   the —  that's the  side   of  7 the mountain where Gyadim Lax ts'inaast lives.  8 Q       Ma'uus,   the  present holder   of   that is Jeff  Harris  9 junior,   isn't it?  10 A       Yes.  11 Q       Ano his   clan is what?  12 A       The  Frog  Clan.  13 Q       Yes.  14 MR.   GRANT:     My   Lord,   I wonder   if   Mr.   Goldie  is not  putting  15 documents  to  the witness,   if  he   could  be   not  so  16 directly   close   to the witness.  17 MR.  GOLDIE:     I'm   coming  back  to a  document in a  second,   My Lord.  18 THE  COURT:     All   right.  19 A       There  is a   clearing at  the  side   of   the mountain  20 between  that mountain and  Xsikadook  is what  they   call  21 Naa Laxtsinaasi t,   that's where   the mean man lives.  22 Q       Ah,   yes.  23 A       And  that's where  our  boundary   is.  24 Q       Yes.     Would you agree with me   that  the mountain  that  25 you have  circled is a  prominent  landmark in the area?  26 A       Yeah.     Yeah,   because  it has an old name.  27 Q       The  —  28 A       And we —  excuse me,   sir,   and we  can't go  into Ansa  29 Luu Hlo'os and  try  to  claim  it.     And  the   same   thing to  3 0 us,   nobody   will   come  try   to claim  ours if   all   these  31 three   territories  close  to  the village.  32 Q       But   up  until   a few  ciays ago,   the members of your House  33 and you  thought   that it was  perfectly   proper  to  go to  34 that mountain;  is that  not  correct?  35 A      No,   we   didn't   say  we   ownea   the whole mountain,  we   say  36 that —   that  there is a   clearing where Gyaaim Lax  37 ts'inaast Nass lives.     But   right on  the  top of   the  38 mountain is Ma'uus,   they   showed me  on the map.     But  39 the   side   of   it is where   this mean man lives,  and  40 that's where  Xsan hax Hlo'o runs  down,   that's our  41 boundary.  42 Q       Coulo my   friend —  43 MR.   GRANT:     320  for   the  record.  44 MR.   GOLDIE:     If  my   friend might produce   the map that  the witness  45 refers  to as  demonstrating  —  46 MR.   GRANT:     Sure.  47 MR.   GOLDIE:     —  the  ownership of   Ma'uus  of   the  territory? 851  Mary   Johnson   (for   Plaintiffs)  Cross exam   by   Mr.  Goldie  1 MR.   GRANT:     If   this  is a   request  —  2 MR.  GOLDIE:     Yes,   it is.  3 MR.   GRANT:     —  for   a copy   of   the map,   we'll  endeavour  —  4 MR.  GOLDIE:     I want  the map produced  that  Mrs.   Johnson has just  5 referred to.  6 MR.   GRANT:     Well   my   understanding  —   I —   I'm sorry,   My   Lord,  7 that went — what my  friend is  now  referring to went  8 right by  me,   either   he misunderstood the answer   or   I  9 dio,   I  don't   know  if   she was  referring to our map.  10 THE  COURT:     Well,   perhaps you  could find out,   Mr.   Goldie,  11 whether   she was.  12 MR.   GOLDIE:  13 Q       Yes.  14 Mrs.   Johnson,   you were  convinced that Ma'uus  owned  15 this   territory   because   Mr.   Sterritt  showed you a map;  16 is that  correct?  17 A       Yes.  18 Q       Is  that  right?  19 A       Yes.  20 Q       And tolo you  that Jonathon said he  owned that  21 territory?  22 A       Yeah.  23 THE  COURT:     Jonathon  said Ma'uus  owned the   territory?  24 MR.  GOLDIE:     Ma'uus  owned  the   territory.     Well,   he was Ma'uus at  25 the   time,   wasn't he?  26 THE   COURT:     Oh yes,   I'm   sorry,   yes.  27 MR.   GRANT:     My   Lord,   that is not  the  evidence   that Jonathon was  28 Ma'uus at  the   time.  29 THE  COURT:     It  is not?  30 MR.   GRANT:     No.  31 MR.   GOLDIE:      I'm  sorry.  32 MR.  GRANT:     That's  not   the  evidence at all.  33 MR.   GOLDIE:     I'm  sorry,   I   thought  it was.  34 THE   COURT:     I   believe  everything  counsel   tell me.  35 a      Jonathon Johnson is a Wolt   tribe and Ma'uus  is a  Frog  36 tribe.  37 MR.   GOLDIE:  38 Q       So Jonathon Johnson is a member   of   the Wolf  Clan?  39 A       Yeah.  40 Q       You stated that Ma'uus,   a member   of   the  Frog Clan —  41 A       Yes.  42 Q       —  owned territory   that you  until   a few  days ago —  43 A       Yeah.  44 Q       —   a member   ot   the  Fireweed  —  45 A       Yeah.  46 Q       —   thought your  House   owned?  47 a      No.     We  didn't   say we   owned  the mountain.     I  told you 852  Mary   Johnson   (for   Plaintiffs)  Cross exam   by   Mr.  Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  MR.  GRANT:  6  MR.  GOLDIE  7  8  9  10  11  MR.  GRANT:  12  13  THE  COURT:  14  MR.  GRANT:  15  THE  COURT:  16  17  MR.  GRANT:  18  THE  COURT:  19  MR.  GRANT:  20  21  MR.  GOLDIE  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  MR.  GRANT:  45  THE  COURT:  46  47  MR.  GRANT:  that it's just  the  clearing between the mountain and  Xsikadook.     That's where   the mean man lives,   and  that's where  our —   the  creek comes down and that's  our  boundaries,   Xsan Max Hlo'o.  320,   My   Lord.  :    What   I ask now  is the map that  the witness  referred  to in her  answer,   she agreed with me   that  she looked  at a map that  showed that  this territory   belonged to  Ma'uus.     That's  the map   I'm  referring to,   and  I ask  for   it's  production.  Of   course   I'll  have  to have leave  to speak with  the  witness  to determine which map she is  referring to.  Yes,   of   course.  If  my   friend will  Although  she   says  showed her.  Yes,   I will.  Why   not  speak to Mr  I will   speak  to him  whoever  is necessary.  do  that.  it's a map  that  Mr.   Neil  Sterritt  ,   Sterritt?  as well,   My  Lord,   I'll  speak to  Now  Mrs.   Johnson,   let me ask you to assist me a  step  further.     It is  important  that  the  boundaries  of   the  territories  be   understood by   everybody,   is it not?  It's  important.  And in the  old days,   if   somebody   crossed a  boundary  without  permission who was  not entitled to  be   there,  that was  regarded as a very   serious  thing?  Yeah.  Now,   before you were  informed of  Jonathon Johnson's  statement   that  the land  that is  shown on Exhibit  17-9-A that is  different  —  or   I  should say   is taken  out   of   the land  depicted as your   territory  as Exhibit  19,   before you were  shown that,   how  did —  how  did you  aescribe your   territory?    How  aid  the adaawk  of   the  House   of   Antgulilbix describe   the   territory   that is  depicted on  these maps?  That's how   the adaawk is about  a mean man lives  up  there.     Yeah,   ano  that's where   the  creek  runs   down,  this is  between  Xsikadook and  And  did  it   not  refer   to  or   anything  like   that?  No.  Well,   My   Lord,   she has just  referred  Ma'uus' .  streams  or   creeks  or mountains  to it.  Well   Mr.   Grant,   I'm  sure   that's   right,   but we  can't  have  continuing  interjections.  Well   I agree,   My Lord.     I would just appreciate it 853  Mary Johnson (for  Cross exam by Mr.  Plaintiffs)  Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.   GOLDIE  if  my   friend would not after   she  refers to a  stream,  totally   reverse her  answer  in  the following question  by   saying   "Doesn't it refer   to  streams," when  she has  just  referred to  one.  I was  using the  plural.  Tell me what   streams  the adaawk?  MR.  MR.  A       It's  the  Q       And what  GRANT:      320.  GOLDIE:  Xsan Max Hlo'o,  number is  that,  and creeks were  referred to in  that's the  boundary,  pl ea se ?  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  And is that —  aoaawk?  Yeah.  Any   others?  No,   that' s all,  Were   there any  was  that  the  stream   referred to in the  MR.  MR.  mountains  referred to in the adaawk?  Andamhl   is  a village   that   stands at  the  bottom,   and  that's —  and  the mountain is where   their hunting  ground  during wintertime when it's  time  to hunt for  furs.     Ano in September   they   hunt  for   some  groundhogs.  Q       Can you  tell  His Lordship —  GRANT:      322,   My   Lord.  GOLDIE:  Q       Can you  tell   his Lordship the  natural   features,   I'll  put it   that way,   of   the   territory   of  Antgulilbix and  Tsibasaa   referred to in the aaaawk?    Can you state  them?  A       Yes.     They   owned the   territory   because  it —  it's  handed  over   to  them from   their  ancestors from  generation to generation.  Q       But  can you  tell  His Lordship  the   Indian  names  of   the  and streams,   the mountains,  A  Q  A  0.  A  Q  A  Q  A  features,   the  creeks  whatever   they   are?  Yeah.  The fields?  That mountain's name  shines on,   and  —  Yes?  And the  creek's name  Yes?  is Andamhl,   that's where  the moon  is Wil t gallii   bax  That's  the little  creek that  runs  backwards  instead  following   the Skeena   River.  Runs  through   the  old village   site?  No.     It  runs —  turns where   the vegetable farm is.  They   covered this up,   the vegetable farm  cover  it up,  of bH  Mary   J en r. sen   (tor   Plaintiits)  CrcLi,  exon   Dy   Mr.   Goldie  coulo still   see   the  bubbles of  water  4  5  fc  7  b  9  10  11  li  13  14  IS  16  17  lb  19  20  21  22  23  24  2b  26  27  2b  *.9  JO  ;1  J2  j j  J4  j i.  Jb  J 7  Jb  J*  4L  41  4.  4j  44  4i.  4t  47  MR.  ■niL  MR.  Th i  KR.  Kir.  TJiL  MP..  Tht  KR.  TJiL  hi<.  Tht  MR.  Mi-.  th t  kr.  71: r.  .' R .  y.b.  11: L  com l ng  two  names  are   322   for   Anoamhl   and   325   for   the  COURT  (J KANT  (XL R'l  GRANT  you,  Lut   you  out.  Gf-ANT:      Those  creek.  325?  Yes.  Thank  Ano  they  17-9-A.  GOLDIE:      Exhibit   17-9-A;   is  Johnson,   is  —   is   the  sor ry .  REGISTRAR:      This   is   Exhibit  GOLDIt :  0       Yes,   I'll   use   the  exhibit,   please.     Thank you.  There  is  a mountain marked   there as Andamhl;  that   the  one   that you are  referring to?  Anaomhl,   yeah,   that's  Andamhl.  So  that's marked  in Exhibit  19.  marked  on   that  exhibit?  GOURl:     Where   is  the mountain  in   319?  GOLDIE:     On  Exhibit   19?  COURT:     Sorry,   17-9-A?  GGLLTt:      17-9-A,    the  --   orienting   it with  are   both  labelled on the map Exhibit  that  correct?     Is  that,   Mrs.  tirst  one marked on exhibit —  19.  is  A  Is  the little  creek  the  to   the   top,   so  it's   sideways,  COURT:  G t AN 1 :  G OLD It  COURT:  G OL L IE  GO I R'l :  u _L L It  G r AN 1 :  COURT:  G-LLIt  north   point in  if   Your Lordship will  look at   the  lower   heavy   line,   it  is  interrupted with  the  letters  A-n-d-a-m,   ana  then  two letters   go  oft   to  one   siae,   h-t.  Oh,   yes.  H-l.  :      H-l.  Yes.  :     Ana   then  on  Exhibit   19.  319   is   it?  There  is   --  No,    that's   322,   My   Lord.  All   right.  :     It   Your  Loraship will   look at  the angle formed by  the   Lounoary   of   Tsibasaa  ana   the  heavy   line   that   goes  to   tht   left  at   about  eleven o'clock,   you'll   come  across  a   spot  height   that  is   A-n-d-a-rr.-h-i-x-w  aj.porer.tly .  h-l-x-w.  GRANT:  GOLDIt:  u't   tne  J or.n son ?  A Yt s.  same   thing,   am   I   correct   in  that,   Mrs. 855  Mary  Johnson   (for   Plaintiffs)  Cross exam  by  Mr.  Goldie  1 Q       Thank you.  2 THE  COURT:     I  don't have  that line   on this map.  3 MR.   GOLDIE:  4 Q       Perhaps  I'll  ask the witness  to circle  the mountain  5 that  she has  referred to on Exhibit 19.     Is  that  the  6 mountain there?  7 A       Yeah.  8 Q       Could you just  circle  that please?    Thank you very  9 much.  10 THE COURT:     May   I  see   that,   please?     It's not  on 17-9-A,   is it?  11 MR.  GOLDIE:     The  spot height is  not identified as  such,   but it  12 is just above  the —  13 THE   COURT:     Yes,   I   see.  14 MR.   GOLDIE:     —  above  the  A.     Now   if   Your Lordship will  look at  15 the  17-9-A map,   the little  creek to which   I   understood  16 the witness  to  refer   to is identified as such.  17 Immediately   to  the left  of   the   tent-shaped symbol  18 forming the  old village.  19 THE  COURT:     Just  to  the left  of Wilt  gallii   bax?  20 MR.   GOLDIE:     Yes.  21 THE   COURT:     Yes.  22 MR.   GOLDIE:  23 Q       There is a   creek  running in there.     Is  that  the  creek  24 to which you  refer,   Mrs.   Johnson?     That,   according to  25 my   understanding of your   evidence,   is the  site   of   the  26 old village?  27 A       Yeah.  28 Q       And then there  is this  creek Xsu Wil Gallii   running  29 into it?  30 A      Oh,   Xsu Wil  Gallii Bak?  31 Q       Yes?  32 A       Yeah,   that's  the  creek.  33 Q       All   right.     Now   those  are   two  of   the features   that are  34 mentioned in the adaawk.     Can you tell  me what  the  35 others are,   please?  36 A      When they   lived there  they   got  their  own Feast Houses  37 there,   and  they   used to invite   the  surrounding  38 villages.  39 Q       Yes?  40 A       Yeah.     Because   they   had enough meat and enough  fur  41 from —  from   the mountains  that  they   own,   and enough  42 fish from  all   these  fishing sites.  43 Q       Ano are   there  any  features,   other   creeks  or   natural  44 features  that were  referred to in the adaawk besides  45 the   two you've  identified?  46 A       The  Xsu Wil   Masxwit.  47 Q       Yes.     And was  that —  that was referred to in  the 856  Mary  Johnson   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross exam  by   Mr.  Goldie  1 adaawk?  2 A       Yes.     And they   said it belongs  to the —  to the House  3 of   both Antgulilbix and Tsibasaa.  4 Q       Right?  5 A      And the mountain,   too,   where  they  got  the mountain  6 goats and  groundhogs and also it was Antgulilbix'  7 hunting ground.  8 Q       Um-hmm.     And that creek  — and the adaawk stated that  9 that   creek was  the  boundary   right  down to  the  Kispiox  10 River?  11 A      They   didn't  say   it's their  boundary   because  it comes  12 from   the mountain,   and  —  13 Q      But  a member   of   the House  —  a member   of your House  14 when he   came  to  that,   or he   or   she  came  to  that  creek,  15 that was the  boundary   of   the   territory,   according to  16 the adaawk;   is   that   correct?  17 A       No.     Because   the  creek comes from  the mountain.  18 Q       Yes.  19 A      Ano they   owned the whole mountain,   and they   hunt  on  20 both   sides  of   the  creek.  21 Q       And what  did the adaawk say   that would tell   a member  22 of your House whether  one  side   of   the  creek was  23 Antgulilbix and the  other   side   of   the  creek belonged  24 to another House?  25 A       All   they   said is they   owned Xsu Wil   Masxwit and Wil  26 Masxwit.  27 Q       What was  that please?  28 VOICE: 317 and  318.  29 MR.   GOLDIE:  30 Q       So the  creek which  is shown,   if   I  understand you  31 correctly,   which is  shown as Wil   Masxwit,   is  the  32 boundary   that —   I'm sorry,   Xsu Wil   Masxwit,   that was  33 the   boundary   of   the House?  34 A       They   didn't  say   it's  the  boundary,   because  it comes  35 from   the mountain and  — and  they hunt on  the   side  of  36 the creek.  37 Q  Yes?  38 A  Yeah.  39 Q       Now what was  the  change   that you learned about  two or  40 three  days ago?  41 A       There is no  change.  42 Q       No   change?  43 A       No.  44 Q       is  the —   the adaawk will   be   the  same?  45 A       Yeah.  46 Q       No  change?  47 A      No. 857  1  2  THE  3  4  5  MR.  6  THE  7  MR.  8  9  THE  10  MR.  11  12  THE  13  MR.  14  15  16  THE  17  MR.  18  THE  19  MR.  20  21  THE  22  MR.  23  24  25  26  THE  27  MR.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  MR.  44  45  MR.  46  47  Mary  Johnson   (for   Plaintiffs)  Cross exam  by   Mr.  Goldie  Q       All   right,   thank you.  COURT:     Is   this little   creek  that  the witness mentioned,  which   I  understand is number  317,   does it show   on this  map?  GRANT:     Which   one,   My  Lord?  COURT:     On  17-9-A?  GRANT:     Yes.     It's —   it's on the —  if you have  the map in  the   north  direction,  you  can  see  along   the  top.  COURT:     Oh yes,   I have it.  GRANT:     You  can  see it,   it would  be   upside   down,   the wording  of   it will   be,   but you can  see  it along that boundary.  COURT:     Yes.     And   318?  GRANT:     318   is just at  the  tip —   the  point  of   the  boundary  and  then you  see   the line   going in a   north-south  direction,   and it's  up in that area.  COURT:     Yes,   all   right.     Thank you.  GRANT:     And  that mountain is a  — you  can see  from   the —  COURT:     Yes,   I have  it.  GRANT:     —  from   the  topography   it goes along the  bottom  there.  COURT: Yes.  GOLDIE:     The —   I  think Your Lordship will   see  from  17-9-A,  comparing   17-9-A with Exhibit 19,   that in  the  19 86  map,   the boundary   followed the  creek down to the —  right  to  the   Kispiox  River.  COURT:     Yes.  GOLDIE:  Q       It your  brother,   Stanley   Wilson,   Mrs.   Johnson,   able  to  speak  of   the   territory  on  behalf   of   the House   of  Antgulilbix?  A       Yeah.     He is able  to  speak about  the  northern  territory,   because he has  been  there and he   knows  the  boundary.  Q       And during your  examination for  discovery,   you said  that he had a map,   if   I   understand it,   of   that  territory,   and my   friend has produced a  photocopy   of   a  map.     Did you have  occasion to   see   that  before my  friend sent  it  to me?    Do you  recognize  that?  A       Yeah.     They   show  it  to Stanley  and Stanley would  explain that.  Q       I   see.     He   knows what  this means?  A       Yeah,   yeah.  GOLDIE:     Thank you.      I'm going to ask my   friend to produce  the   original   of   this.     This is a  photocopy   of   this  GRANT:    Well   that's  rather   difficult,   My  Lord,   because   I  can  inform   the  court  that  the   original   of   that is in  the  custody   of   the  Fish  and Wildlife Branch,   and the  copy 858  Mary  Johnson   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross exam  by  Mr.  Goldie  1 that  I was  given by   Mr.   Wilson was as — actually   that  2 copy   is almost  better   than  the   copy   I was   given,   it  3 was quite  faded out,   it was a very   poor   copy.     So my  4 friend would have   the   original,   I   believe,   or   the  5 defendant would.  6 MR.   GOLDIE:     No,   I  aon't have  the  original   of   something that has  7 been  pasted together,   that's what   I'm asking to   see.  8 Because   this is made   up of   two pieces of  paper   that  9 have  been  pasted together.  10 THE   COURT  11 MR.   GRANT  12 THE   COURT  What Mr.   Goldie is asking  —  That's exactly  what   I was   given.  Well,   Mr.   Goldie wants to  see what you were  given  13 from which his   copy was apparently   taken.     Is  there a  14 problem with   that?  15 MR.   GRANT:     No,   there is no  problem  at all with   that,   although   I  16 can aavise  him   that  the   poor   photocopy was   given from  17 the  Fish  and Wildlife Branch   to Mr.   Wilson.  18 THE   COURT:     Thank you.  19 MR.   GRANT:     If   he wants  to see   that,   that's fine.  20 MR.   GOLDIE:  21 Q       Yes,   thank you.  22 Now,   Mrs.   Johnson,   you were here while Mrs.  23 McKenzie   gave  evidence,   weren't you?  24 A       Yes.  25 Q       Ano my   recollection is that  she  told us  that  the high  26 chiefs   know who  their   neighbours are in  the  27 territories,   and  I   think you gave  something of   the  28 same   sort  of   evidence  today?  29 A       Yes.  30 Q       Have you ever  had occasion to get  together with   the  31 high  chiefs who are — who  own  the   neighbouring  32 territories,   with  a view  to discussing the  boundaries?  33 A       Yes.     I   used to  discuss with late  Albert  Tait.  34 Q       And that was when Mr.   Tait was the holder   of   the  name  35 of   Delgam  Uukw?  36 A       Yeah,   yeah.  37 Q       Yes.     And he is a  neighbour   of yours in the  northern  38 territory?  39 A       Yes.  40 Q       Yes.     And do you  know who your  neighbours are in that  41 northern  territory   besides Mr.   Tait?  42 A       Yeah.     It was —   it was Dawamuxw   on the  south   side.  43 Q       Yes,   um-hmm?  44 a       Yeah.  45 Q       Do you  recall   anybody   else?  46 A       I  never  approached  those   that —   that on  the   other  47 side where —  where  the Xsi Wis An Skit ends. 859  Mary   Johnson   (for   Plaintiffs)  Cross exam  by   Mr.  Goldie  1 Q       Does your   territory   boarder   that of   the  2 Kitwancool-Gitksan in  the  north,   the  northern  3 territory?  4 A      Stanley would  know   that.  5 Q       All   right.     The  southern territory   has a very   small  6 part   of   its  boundary  at  the edge   of   the   claims  7 territory.     Are  the  neighbours out  to the west  there,  8 Kitwancool-Gitksan?    Do you follow what   I'm  referring  9 to?       I'm going  to  show you Exhibit 17-9-A again,   and  10 I   understand  —   if   I   understand it  correctly,   that  11 this small   portion of   the  boundary  and I'm pointing  12 towards  the extreme western edge   of your   territory,   I  13 understand the  people  on the  other   side   of   that are  14 Kitwancool?  15 A       Yeah.  16 Q       Have you ever  had occasion to consult with   them?  17 A      No,   no.     They —   they   know   their   own  boundaries.  18 MR.   GOLDIE:     All   right,   thank you.  19 My  Lord,   I'm  going to  go onto another  subject,   if  20 that would be   convenient.  21 THE  COURT:     I   think we will  forbear   the   pleasure   of  hearing you  22 on another   subject  today,   Mr.   Goldie.  23 MR.   GOLDIE:     Thank you.  24 MR.   GRANT:     My  Lord,   I just wish my   friend would have  some  25 indication  of  how long he will   be in terms  of   planning  26 for   the  next witnesses,   that's all.  27 THE   COURT:     Mr.  Goldie,   are you able  to help?  28 MR.   GOLDIE:     Not very  much,   My  Lord.     I'll  be  able  to help at  29 the  end  of   the   next  day.  30 THE  COURT:     You think you'll  be  all   of   the  next  day   with   this  31 witness?  32 MR.   GOLDIE:     No,   I  don't.     But  if   by   some mischance   I am,   I'll  33 be able   to  be quite   precise  about it at  that  time.  34 THE  COURT:     Well   then you should be   ready   with  another witness  35 then on  the   next  day,   Mr.  Grant.  36 MR.   MACAULAY:     We  should have well   before  then the  genealogy,   at  37 least,   for   the   next witness.  38 MR.   GRANT:     Yes,   that's  being made   up or worked on to be  39 completed,   and   I hope it will   be when  I leave   the  40 court  today,   My  Lord.     We're  doing our   best.  41 THE  COURT:     All   right.     Can  I inquire   of   counsel mainly,   I  42 guess,   for   the  plaintiffs,   how we are  doing in sense  43 ot what  they   predict,   if   they   can make any   prediction  44 at all,   where —   the  progress we are making and the  45 progress we  are  likely   to make in  the   next  three  46 weeks,   the  next  three-week session?  47 if   counsel   are able  to answer   that question,   I was 860  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RU SH :  THE COURT  MR.   RU SH :  then going to ask them   if   they   are able  to go one   step  further and indicate whether   they  are able  to make any  estimate   of  what  they   think the length  of   the  case  will   be in total,   that is from   the  plaintiff's  point  of   view  and from   the  defendant's point  of  view?    Are  you able  to make  any  estimate,   Mr.   Rush?  Let me  deal  with question number   one  first,   My  Lord.  :     Yes.  We  think that  there will   be   one  —  four more  witnesses  called in  the   next  three-week period,  possibly  —  possibly   five.     We expect  to complete   the  next Gitksan witness and move  to  the Wet'suwet'en  witnesses and Your Lordship will   hear   evidence  for   the  first  time   of Wet'suwet'en  people   by   then.  In terms —  in terms of   our   time  tabling,   the  witness  sequencing  is moving as we  expect it,  and  I  think Your Loraship will   see   that  the  number   of  —  the  number   of   days — put it  this way,   hours  per witness  will   shorten as we move  through   the witnesses.  In  terms  of your   second question,   I  can't answer  that question,   and  I will   know  best at,   I suppose,   at  the end  of   the   third  —   the   second  three-week  period  just how   long  the  trial  will   take.  :     All   right.     The   next question  I would like  to ask  counsel   is whether   there are  experts  reports  that  can  be   tendered and which   I might read in advance?     I   know  we are a  long way   away   from   that  stage yet,   but   I'm  projecting forward to  the  summer months and  I was  going  to inquire whether   at  the  end of   the  next  three  weeks   session,   it is —  it will   be   useful  to  give me  copies of   reports  that   I  can read?  Yes,   there  are   some,   My  Lord,   and  I   should advise  Your Lordship and my   friends  that  I have  today   two  letters for   them,   giving to  them further  appendices  that  they   sought.  COURT:     Yes.     Well   I'm not looking for  a definitive answer  now,   I just raise   the question now for purposes  of  being considered between now  and the  completion of   the  next  three-week  segment  to — and have   counsel  consiaer whether   it will   be   convenient  to give me  some  THE   COURT  MR.    RUSH  THE  particularly anxious to  will   be   useful you  — well,   I  because   I am anxious to have it  faint hope,   at least,   that it might  notice  of  up with  counsel  again in  reaaing material.      I'm  not  have it,   but  if   it  shoulan't   say   that  because   I have  the  be   useful   to  do  so.     But   I'm merely   giving  that  now,   and  I'll   take  it  up with  counsel  two to  three weeks'   time. 861  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.   RUSH  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH :  THE   COURT  I   think as a  general  view,   My  Lord,   it would be   of  assistance  to  the   court for you to have   these   over   the  summer months.  I  ao have  one   other matter,   if  Your Lordship is  completed your questions?  Yes.  We have among counsel   completed an agreement with  respect to  the   severance   of   the issue   of   damages,  and  we've  committed that  to writing and it's been  concurred in  by   counsel,   Mr.  Goldie,   Mr.   Macaulay,  and  I  can  submit  this in better  form   to Your Lordship now.  All   right,   thank you.     All   right,   well   that  can  be  marked as the  next  exhibit  then if   that's agreeable to  all   counsel.  MR.   RUSH :     Thank you.  THE COURT:     All   right.     We'll  adjourn then to resume at about  eleven  o'clock on  the   Monday   of   that week.     Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:     Order  in court.     This court  stands  adjourned  until  June 8th,   1987,   at  eleven  o'clock.  (PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED AT  3:30  p.m.)  I hereby   certify   the foregoing to be  a   true and accurate   transcript  of   the  proceedings  herein transcribed to the  best  of  my  skill  and ability.  Toni   Kerekes,  U* i\* f    i\* r¬a X\*  United Reporting Service Ltd.


Citation Scheme:


Citations by CSL (citeproc-js)

Usage Statistics



Customize your widget with the following options, then copy and paste the code below into the HTML of your page to embed this item in your website.
                            <div id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidgetDisplay">
                            <script id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidget"
                            async >
IIIF logo Our image viewer uses the IIIF 2.0 standard. To load this item in other compatible viewers, use this url:


Related Items