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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-06-09] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 9, 1987

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 924  1 June 9, 1987  2 Smithers, B.C.  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in Court.  In the Supreme Court of British  4 Columbia, this 9th day of June, 1987.  Delgam uukw and  5 others and Her Majesty the Queen.  6 THE COURT:  Are you ready to proceed with the -- the question of  7 the group of government records, I guess, for want of  8 a better expression?  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, my lord.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Goldie, do you want to start,  11 please?  12 MR. GOLDIE:  Your lordship may recall that the object of the  13 motion made by the defendants with respect to what we  14 call the alienations document was stated by me with  15 reference to the motion book of documents.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  There's a blue-coloured book, isn't there?  17 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  18 THE COURT:  Madam registrar, I think I dug it out.  It must have  19 been left on the desk there.  I have a copy of it that  20 I will get.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  We have an extra copy.  22 THE COURT:  It's right on my desk.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  I'll get it.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  The -- I made reference to it in the transcript on  25 the opening day, and perhaps I can refer to the  26 transcript, my lord.  It's Volume 1 page 40.  And  27 starting at line 35, I was quoting from Exhibit B in  28 the -- I should say attachment or Exhibit A, the  29 material, which was a memorandum addressed to counsel  30 for the plaintiff and the Attorney General of Canada  31 dated April 13th, 1987.  Now, quoting from that  32 memorandum, we said:  33  34  35 "We have two goals:  36 1.  To prove in a compendious fashion:  37 a)  The extent of alienations of  38 provincial lands and resources;  39 b)  the location of areas subject to  40 land and resource use regulation;  41 c)  the delineation of administrative  42 boundaries of certain government  43 activities; and  44 d)  other miscellaneous matters;  45 within the area claimed by the  46 plaintiffs;  47 2.  To illustrate these matters in a format 925  1 which will demonstrate their  2 interrelationship and be convenient for  3 use at trial."  4  5 And I said that:  6  7 "Achievement of these objectives has  8 required the development and preparation of  9 a variety of materials."  10  11 And I went on to say in response to a question from  12 your lordship that while the source materials were  13 government documents, the area of judgment that was  14 involved and which gave rise to the application was  15 the translation of those source documents onto maps  16 for the most part, a visual depiction of the material.  17 Otherwise, we were confronted with a great mass of  18 material.  19 Now, the -- the first document or classification  20 that I wish to deal with is the trap line and the --  21 the map itself has been marked for -- to a limited  22 extent as Exhibit 24A and the -- a number has been  23 reserved for the supporting documentation, 24B.  Does  24 your lordship have the -- the --  25 THE COURT:  Registered trap lines?  26 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Now, let me — that is referred to and  29 I'll just give your lordship the reference in the  30 transcript.  That is just referred to in Volume 1 page  31 50, line 44 to page 53, line 12.  I can show by  32 reference to the evidence that Mrs. Johnson gave  33 yesterday how this material has been built up.  In  34 the -- she identified by reference to Stanley Wilson's  35 map a number and an area on Exhibit 24A.  Now, if your  36 lordship would take the documents, supporting  37 documentation, and turn to -- under Tab C, there is  38 first a letter dated December 22nd, 1986 from an  39 official of the provincial government, which simply  40 describes the documentation system used by the  41 department with respect to trap lines.  And he says  42 by -- by way of explanation that the file -- and I'm  43 reading Item B on page 1 of his letter.  The file  44 numbered system is based upon the assigned trap line  45 number.  The example he gives is 0604T034.  The first  46 four digits refer to our wildlife management units.  47 The T refers to trap line and the last three digits 926  1 refer to the number of that trap line within that  2 management unit.  The nature of the alienation of all  3 trap lines is by a licence and then examples are  4 given.  Trap line boundaries are shown on 1 to 126,000  5 scale maps and the appropriate map reference number is  6 given after the trapper's address.  Now, those maps,  7 which are documents kept in the ordinary course of the  8 provincial government's business, is the foundation  9 for that large map.  10 Skipping over to the third page, which is the page  11 numbered 5 at the top of the document, the  registered  12 trap lines, and there are several pages of them, are  13 all in the Smithers area.  The highlighted ones and  14 those which have numbers in the margin are those which  15 fall within the claims area.  16 Now, just taking Mrs. Johnson's trap line as an  17 example, if I go over to page 25 -- 24, at the bottom  18 of -- the very last entry at the bottom of that page  19 is 0630T021 and the name Stanley Wilson and address,  20 and over the page your lordship will find a series of  21 entries which are all in relation to that trap line  22 and which provide the names that Mrs. Johnson  23 identified as members of her family and members of the  24 trap line registration.  25 THE COURT:  Are they everybody down to -- down to the end of the  26 number --  27 MR. GOLDIE:  Donald Tait is the last name shown there and Alfred  28 Latz is shown as deceased, and I think Mrs. Johnson  29 told us yesterday that Donald Tait, if my memory  30 serves me correctly, is also deceased now.  But what  31 this is is a provincial record of a trap line  32 registration, and those are the names of the  33 registered -- names of the owners of the registered  34 line as shown in the provincial records.  Now --  35 THE COURT:  What are the numbers at the end of the line, like at  36 the top of that page 25, 103 P/E?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Those are map references.  38 THE COURT:  Map references.  Oh, yes.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, she mentioned -- or I mentioned to her two  40 other lines and if your lordship would go down the  41 page to Item 204 number 0630--  42 THE COURT:  On page 25?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  On page 25.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  It's — it's the second-to-last highlighted —  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  I referred her to that line, and your lordship will 927  1 see that that, so far as the provincial records is  2 concerned, is vacant at this time.  And that was the  3 line that I directed her attention to with respect to  4 Charles Johnson.  5 One other reference.  Your lordship may recall that  6 I asked her about trap lines on her territory near  7 Kispiox Village, and I referred to Roy Wilson and  8 Alvin -- or Norman Weget.  Now, the -- the reference  9 to Roy Wilson, my lord, you'll find under the numbers  10 0630T007, and that is on page 24.  And it is item 187  11 and the registered -- or the owner of the registered  12 line is Norman Weget and his address is Box 19,  13 Kispiox.  14 THE COURT:  You said 007?  15 MR. GOLDIE:  That's the last three numbers.  The beginning  16 numbers are 0630.  This is on page 24.  And it's --  17 they run --  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  I see that.  It's just that further up the  19 page I find one in the name of Snyder, Donald E., also  20 007, but I guess it's got a different prefix.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, it has.  It has.  The succeeding numbers are  22 repeated, but the prefix changes.  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Yes.  I find that.  I  24 see that one.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  So one has to have the complete reference in order  26 to track the owner down.  So the reference that I gave  27 Mrs. Johnson is 0630T007, Norman Weget, and by  28 reference to the Exhibit 24A, one can find that  29 location and find it -- its relationship to the  30 Kispiox Village territory of Mrs. Johnson.  31 THE COURT:  How would you go about finding the -- what would the  32 reference be to -- you'd have to go to the file under  33 that number to find the map to -- that would describe  34 it.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  That is correct.  But on the — on Exhibit 24A, one  36 can find the -- oh, yes.  The 0630T007 is identified  37 on this map in precisely the same way as the  38 departmental maps, but, of course, reduced in scale  39 with the outline of the -- of the boundary, and one  40 can follow that completely around.  And then the next  41 one to which I was going to refer was 0630T004, and  42 that's Mr. Roy Wilson's.  He's the owner of that trap  43 line.  And this line by reference to the features  44 shown on the map, namely the Kispiox Reserve and Glen  45 Vowell Reserve, can be identified in relation to Mrs.  46 Johnson's territory.  47 Now, I return to what was said in the preface to 928  1 these supporting documents, and it is a letter dated  2 March the 31st, 1987.  It's the second page in on the  3 document.  4 THE COURT:  On Tab C?  5 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  At the very beginning, my lord.  And this is  6 the certification of the land administrator who  7 certifies that the following documents, one, the list  8 of registered trap lines, and that's what we've been  9 looking at --  10 THE COURT:  Where are you, Mr. Goldie?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  It's the second page in from the very beginning.  12 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  I made a mistake.  I started with Tab A.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  It's a letter addressed to me.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  And he certifies that the following documents --  16 number one is the list of registered trap lines, and  17 that's what we have been looking at under Tab C, and I  18 won't go through the rest because, in part, they  19 relate -- they are illustrative.  And Items two, three  20 and four are trapper information forms from the Prince  21 George district, so we don't have a list of those.  We  22 just have the actual registration forms.  But he  23 certifies that these documents as contained in this  24 book are true copies of records made in documents kept  25 in the ordinary course of business of the Ministry of  26 Environment and Parks.  27 And I think I have one other illustration to give  28 to your lordship from this book, and that is under Tab  29 D as in dog at page 35.  There is the application for  30 registration of a trap line and that is in form  31 exactly similar to that which was marked on Mrs.  32 Johnson's examination on the application of Stanley  33 Wilson.  34 My lord, I don't propose taking any further time  35 and in my submission, the -- the trap line map which  36 is marked to the limited extent as Exhibit 24A should  37 be admitted in its entirety and the document entitled  38 "Map 2, Registered Trap Lines Supporting  39 Documentation" for which number 24B has been reserved  40 should be admitted as an Exhibit 24B.  I will go on  41 with other documents and then have a submission to  42 make with respect to them all.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  The next map to which I wish to make reference is  45 what I call the public rights of way.  It is Map 1.  46 And I made reference to it -- 3.  I beg your pardon,  47 3.1 made reference to it in transcript Volume 1 page 929  1 44.  And I went through that at some length and I  2 don't propose repeating it at the present time.  It  3 enables one to determine where rights of way granted  4 under the Land Act are -- exist in the province,  5 together with -- with what are known as UREP's.  The  6 colour code in the map indicates the -- the -- what  7 are given in greater detail in the supporting  8 documentation and the particular reference that is  9 available in this material and which I didn't refer to  10 at the opening is the B.C. Hydro right of way which  11 runs through Mrs. Johnson's territory.  Does your  12 lordship have the two volumes?  One is marked  13 "Supplement To Map 3, Copies of Forest and Land Files"  14 and the other is marked "Map 3, Areas Designated For  15 Use, Recreation and Enjoyment of the Public UREP, the  16 Rights of Way and Licences of Occupation".  17 THE COURT:  I have a large book that is titled not the way you  18 described it, but the same words in a different  19 sequence.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, that's the supplement to Map 3.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  I had supplement to Map 3.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  And there should be a smaller volume which is  23 simply --  24 THE COURT:  Yes.  I have that, yes.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, what one can do is -- to follow through from  26 the map, one can determine that there is a right of  27 way through her territory, and it is numbered, and  28 this one obtains from the map is 0230744, and that  29 number appears under Tab A -- I'm sorry -- Tab B2.  3 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  And it happens to be the very first entry.  And it  32 gives a document number and then N.T.S. is a reference  33 to a map number in the National Topographic Series, a  34 plan number, if any, plan two, surveyed area, and then  35 the area subject to the right of way.  That number  36 having been selected as within her territory from the  37 map, then one can go to page 18, which is under Tab  38 C2, and this is a listing --  39 THE COURT:  How do you know from looking at page 5 that you  40 should go to page 18?  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Because under Tab 2 is a listing of all of the  42 rights of way.  And it is identified, but one can  43 identify it from that.  44 THE COURT:  All right.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  And the very first entry on that page is the number  46 to which one is being referred, and that tells us that  47 it is a British Columbia Hydro and Power Authority 930  1 easement.  That happens to be the one that falls  2 within Mrs. Johnson's territory.  3 THE COURT:  Sixty hectares?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  The area's only .27 hectares.  Is that your  5 lordship's question?  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  I see it says "Area hectares survey, .60".  7 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  That's the second line.  8 THE COURT:  That's the second line.  You're quite right.  Yes.  9 I see that.  Yes.  Thank you.  All right.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  Now —  11 THE COURT:  What does U.C.L. U.F.S. mean?  12 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, U.C.L. is unsurveyed Crown lands and U.F.S.  13 is unsurveyed other than Crown lands, and I think this  14 easement would fall partly within one of the reserves.  15 THE COURT:  I see.  Thank you.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  The only purpose of the supplement, which is this  17 thick volume, was to provide the Court with an example  18 of the file that relates to each of these entries.  19 And there are three examples.  One is of the category  20 the use and recreation of the public.  That's number  21 one.  The second is licence of occupation and the  22 third is a right of way.  Now, the right of way which  23 was selected as an example, of course, was not that of  24 Mrs. Johnson at the time and all it does is provide  25 your lordship with a sense of the file that exists  26 with respect to that particular right of way.  The  27 same certification with respect to that map in  28 relation to the identification of these three  29 categories with respect to the underlying  30 documentation exists as with respect to the trap line.  31 And I won't say anything further on that.  I will be  32 asking that the map be marked as Exhibit 25A, the  33 supporting documentation as 25B, and the supplement as  34 25C when I have completed the references that I wish  35 to make this morning.  36 Now, another category that I wish to take up with  37 Mrs. Johnson is mineral tenures.  This provides a  38 little greater difficulty, as I said in my opening, or  39 in my submission on May the 11th.  There are something  40 in excess of 4,000 forms of mineral tenures in the  41 claims area today.  That is, that are in existence  42 today.  There are many, many claims which have been  43 recorded and which have lapsed, Crown grants which  44 have reverted to the Crown as a result of nonpayment  45 of taxes and so on.  But what we have endeavoured to  46 do is to provide a record of all of the mineral  47 tenures, coal, placer and minerals as they existed on 931  1 October 24th -- October, 1984.  There is no large map.  2 It would be impossible to plot on that -- on the scale  3 of map that we have shown so far the -- all of the  4 mineral tenures.  So what has been done is that the --  5 the brown -- large brown book which is entitled "Maps  6 14 to 16, Mineral, Coal and Placer Tenure" contains  7 photographic copies of the departmental maps.  Now, I  8 have asked Mr. MacKenzie to hand up to your lordship  9 some three volumes of supporting documentation.  10 THE COURT:  Two sets of three, I believe.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  One is to be submitted as an exhibit.  12 MR. RUSH:  Perhaps I can use that one while you're doing that.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  Give them to Mr. Rush, please, Madam  14 Registrar.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry.  Mr. MacKenzie tells me there is not a  16 duplication.  17 THE REGISTRAR:  Appears to be Map 14 and Map 15.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  I have an extra copy of — no, I don't.  We  19 just have -- I'm sorry.  I don't have an extra one  20 here.  The -- if your lordship could look at Map 14  21 Volume 1 and the fourth page in is a page that has  22 headed "British Columbia Standard System of Mapping,  23 National Topographic System" and the Gitksan  24 Wet'suwet'en claim area is used by Energy, Mine and  25 Petroleum Resources.  The squares which are tinted  26 green are squares in which they are recorded mineral  27 tenures as of October 24, 1984.  28 THE COURT:  You mean the whole square is tentured or there are  29 tentured areas within each square?  30 MR. GOLDIE:  There are tenured areas within the square.  This is  31 simply a finder's aid.  If one wishes to determine  32 whether, for instance, there is a mineral tenure  33 existing in Mrs. Johnson's territory, one can dismiss  34 her northern territory because there is no tinting  35 there.  But in the southern territory, one would be  36 referred to the Map 93M5E and 5W because that would  37 fall within her territory.  Now, by reference to Tab  38 A, one finds under Item B maps with tenure present and  39 claim area.  Large block signified by shape, smaller  40 blocks illustrated by cell.  The item numbers on the  41 left hand we can ignore.  The N.T.S. map number is the  42 one that we follow, and on page 3 we find M93M5E,  43 M5935W and it is Items 53 and 54.  They are Items 53  44 and 54.  45 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  46 MR. GOLDIE:  Page — does your lordship —  47 THE COURT:  Yes.  Page 3. 932  1 MR. GOLDIE:  We have been led -- we are led by the  2 identification on the large scale to 93M5E and 93M5W,  3 which are references to the maps, and they are Items  4 53 and 54.  That, in turn, leads us to the brown book,  5 which is the map itself, and under the Tab 93M, we  6 turn over until we get to 93M5E and 5W.  Now, at this  7 point, my lord, there has to be a use of the  8 topographic features on the map, and it is on the map  9 sheet which is M93M5W which has the -- which has the  10 quarters E, F, D and C.  If your lordship would look  11 at the bottom half, there are certain names which have  12 been discussed at some length during the course of  13 Mrs. Johnson's evidence.  There is Hazelton Peak.  14 THE COURT:  Just a moment.  When you're looking -- are you  15 looking at D and C?  16 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I am.  17 THE COURT:  Someone has conveniently put all these maps in this  18 book upside down.  That's not deliberate, I gather?  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Not so far.  20 THE COURT:  All right.  Now, we're looking at what?  Hazelton.  21 Yes.  I found Hazelton Peak in Map C.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  That's been identified as within Mrs. Johnson's  23 territory.  And on the right-hand side, your lordship  24 will see a square, MO6072(3).  Now, that is a recorded  25 mineral claim by the name of Mo.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, to find out a little more about that, one goes  28 to Volume 2 of the supporting documentation, and there  29 the tabs are again by reference to the maps.  And I  30 might say that these are maps which are maintained in  31 the ordinary course of business by the Department of  32 Mines and are available to the public throughout the  33 province and the government agent's offices.  The --  34 under the Tab 93M of Volume 2, if one goes through  35 this sufficiently and comes to page 344, one will find  36 the departmental printout with respect to mineral  37 claim 6072.  Now, that tells us, my lord -- it gives  38 us the number of the claim, the date issued and when  39 it was located.  And then over --  4 0 THE COURT:  Does that mean February?  41 MR. GOLDIE:  1984 it was located.  42 THE COURT:  Is FE —  43 MR. GOLDIE:  I think it's just —  44 THE COURT:  FE doesn't mean anything there?  45 MR. GOLDIE:  I think that's February.  46 THE COURT:  FE is February.  That's February, F-e-b, and I guess  47 the other one is 09, is it?  All right. 933  1 MR. GOLDIE:  And the -- under the working interest heading,  2 there is a name or the abbreviation of a name,  3 H-O-L-D -- I think it's a B.  If one goes to the  4 volume of supporting documentation, which is headed  5 "Supplement to Map 14, Holders of Free Miner's  6 Certificates in the Province of British Columbia",  7 Item D, one finds arranged in alphabetical order the  8 names of all the holders of free miner's certificates,  9 and it's still the law in British Columbia, as it has  10 been for many years, that the reported owner of a  11 mineral claim must hold a free miner's certificate.  12 Now, the -- the page 151, the second entry from the  13 bottom begins with the code word HOLD B and then  14 follows the name Bruce Holden, H-o-l-d-e-n, and the  15 date to which his free miner's certificate is valid,  16 and that will tell us the name of the -- of the  17 recorded owner of the free miner's -- I'm sorry -- of  18 the mineral claim 6072 known as -- with the name  19 recorded under the name Mo, M-o.  Now --  20 THE COURT:  Did you arrive at that location on page 151 merely  21 by the alphabetical reference to HOLD B?  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  And these are all departmental printouts.  23 This information is essentially available to the  24 public because the very maps that are in this book  25 are, as I've said, available at every government  26 agent's office and anybody who is interested in  27 knowing what mineral claims are currently registered  28 in any part of the -- this area would simply go to one  29 of these maps and a part of that MO claim would be  3 0 shown.  31 THE COURT:  What am I to gather from this?  That Mr. Holden's  32 free miner's licence expired in December 31st, '86?  33 MR. GOLDIE:  That this is -- this is a printout which was  34 prepared prior to the current one.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  This is printed as of December 11th, '86, so  36 he may or may not have renewed his free miner's  37 licence.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  If he didn't review his free miner's licence --  39 THE COURT:  His claim expires.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  41 THE COURT:  How am I to know he did or he didn't?  42 MR. GOLDIE:  There's nothing before your lordship that would  43 assist in that.  44 THE COURT:  All right.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Your lordship will bear in mind that we -- what we  46 wished to do was to determine what was in existence in  47 October, 1984, and this particular mineral claim 934  1 was -- was located in February of '84.  2 Now, I -- I've endeavoured to trace through the  3 documentation which would lead us to the conclusion  4 that there was a mineral claim on Mrs. Johnson's  5 Kispiox Village territory in October of 1984 and to  6 indicate to your lordship that these are all documents  7 which are created in the ordinary course.  When I say  8 "all", there are some obvious exceptions to that.  One  9 of them is the green tinted finder's aid in the  10 beginning of the volumes.  11 THE COURT:  And the maps themselves.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, the maps themselves are simply photographs  13 of -- of departmental maps.  14 THE COURT:  Well, I'm sorry.  The notations on the maps.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  No.  The locations on the maps are those  16 which are in the government records today.  We do not  17 have a large scale map.  18 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Of?  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Of the mineral tenures.  2 0 THE COURT:  Of the mineral claims.  Yes.  Thank you.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  So, in effect — or not in effect.  But with only  22 minor exception, all of the documents tendered with  23 respect to mineral tenures are in fact the original  24 documents.  And, now, that same procedure is  25 applicable to the coal tenures and to the placer  26 tenures, the coal tenures supporting documentation  27 being found in two volumes headed "Map 15, Placer  28 Tenure" in one volume headed "Map 16" and the maps for  29 coal, placer and minerals are all in the brown-covered  30 document and I will be asking for the appropriate  31 marking in that regard.  32 Now, the other -- or the next one to which I wish  33 to make reference, because there is -- it affects Mrs.  34 Johnson's territory, are water rights.  And tedious as  35 it may be, we have to go through a considerable means  36 of getting at all of the registered water rights in  37 the claims area.  And we start with a map which your  38 lordship will recognize has the outline of the claims  39 area boundary, and it is divided into water districts  40 and precincts.  This is the way the water branch  41 operates.  The large map is again a means of getting  42 down to the source documents.  By examining the large  43 map, one determines that there are water licences  44 granted in Mrs. Johnson's southern territory, and they  45 are identified by means of a blue square.  That  46 directs us to one of the volumes of water rights maps,  47 and again I emphasize that in this case, the scale of 935  1 the maps that are being used is such that we cannot  2 depict on the -- the small scale map the -- all of the  3 water rights.  So what we have done is we have bound  4 all of the water branches maps by precinct and  5 district and the blue -- the blue takes us to a binder  6 marked "Water Rights Map Scale 1 to 20,000".  The — I  7 should have said that the points of diversion -- and  8 your lordship will appreciate what that -- the  9 significance of that is in terms of water licence --  10 are in fact represented by dots on the large scale  11 map.  Having found dots within the area that appears  12 to include Mrs. Johnson's territory, and that area  13 being identified as the blue index, we go to the water  14 rights map scale 1 to 20,000 and, once again,  15 everything is -- is by map and by pursuing this  16 through to 93M -- now, I don't know whether your  17 lordship can -- the map number is --  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  I have 93M.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, if you go through to 93M022.  Does your  20 lordship have 93M022?  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Up at the top of the map, there is Alipakh Creek.  23 Assuming for a moment that that is the southern  24 boundary of Mrs. Johnson's territory, there are two  25 conditional licences noted there.  26 THE COURT:  Where is north on this map?  27 MR. GOLDIE:  At the top.  28 THE COURT:  North is at the top, yes.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  And in the middle of the map under the heading  3 0 "I.R. Number 2".  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  Sika dook.  Yes.  There is noted two conditional licences.  Yes.  Now, the system that is utilized by the water  branch is to identify the points of diversion by  reference to the stream name.  And before I follow  that through, I want to ask your lordship to turn over  the page to two maps further in, 93M032.  Yes.  And in the middle of the page is Dale Creek, which  we understand to be the northern boundary of Mrs.  Johnson's territory.  44 THE COURT:  Looks like Date Creek, Dale or Date.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  This is shown as Dale and there is a Date Creek  46 elsewhere.  47 THE COURT:  All right.  32  MR.  GOLDIE  33  THE  COURT:  34  MR.  GOLDIE  35  THE  COURT:  36  37  38  39  40  THE  COURT:  41  MR.  GOLDIE  42  43 4  1  5  THE  COURT:  6  MR.  GOLDIE  7  ]  8  THE  COURT:  9  MR.  GOLDIE  10  THE  COURT:  11  MR.  GOLDIE  12  THE  COURT:  13  MR.  GOLDIE  14  15  16  THE  COURT:  17  18  19  THE  COURT:  20  21  MR.  GOLDIE  936  1 THE COURT:  I found Date, but I haven't found Dale.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm now speaking of the one that feeds into Kispiox  3 River, and your lordship will see there a point of  diversion.  I'm sorry.  I haven't found the creek yet.  It's -- if one refers right to the middle of the  map, there's the Kispiox Village --  Yes.  -- to the left.  Oh, yes.  I have it.  Thank you.  It's identified by J.  Yes.  And then at the bottom of the map, there is another  point of diversion in lot 697 marked D with a right of  way leading into the Glen Vowell Reserve.  Yes.  Now, there are other points of diversion shown  on there, but that will do for the purpose of showing  where one goes to after that.  What is this row of little squares in the Glen  Vowell Reserve?  Are those dwellings?  I think those are intended to represent the  22 dwellings there.  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  This is what is shown on the departmental map.  25 THE COURT:  Well, is that point of diversion intended to be a  26 flume or something of that kind?  27 MR. GOLDIE:  It is the point at which the holder of the water  28 licence is entitled to divert from the creek the  29 amount of water and for the purposes stated in the  30 licence, and that's what I wanted to come to now.  31 THE COURT:  I'm just trying to locate myself.  We don't know  32 where the highway is?  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  It will be shown.  34 THE COURT:  Is the highway the broken line?  35 MR. GOLDIE:  The highway -- I said to your lordship the highway  36 would be shown.  My understanding is that it is the  37 broken line that starts just above the R in Cassiar  38 district at the bottom.  39 THE COURT:  So that flume, if it's in place, would go under the  4 0 highway?  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  42 THE COURT: All right.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  It's either a flume or an underground pipeline.  44 THE COURT: Yes.  All right.  That's if it's in place.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, that is correct.  There's — I will show in a  46 minute to your lordship that there is an existing  47 licence for the diversion of water at that point. 937  1 Now, the water branch, of course -- the Water Act of  2 British Columbia enables the controller of water  3 rights to interest himself in the beneficial use of  4 water that is earmarked for a licensee, so a licence  5 which allows the diversion of water which is not  6 utilized is under certain circumstances subject to  7 cancellation.  8 If your lordship would turn to the supporting  9 documentation book, Map 25, water licences, Ministry  10 of Environment and Parks supporting documentation.  11 These are printouts, departmental printouts, and I  12 don't think I need go through each of them.  They are  13 all arranged on the basis of stream names, and there  14 are a variety of arrangements, some for -- only for  15 purposes of restrictions.  That's shown under -- Tab 3  16 of D.  Page 83 is numbered for the purposes of this  17 book.  Now, it is not until we get to a little further  18 on that we begin to get the licence numbers, but if  19 your lordship would turn to page 136, the second entry  20 on that page, it shows in the third column Dale Creek.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  And then the next is J, which is an identifying  23 letter attached to the point of diversion that we saw  24 on the map, the map number 93M032, then the use, which  25 is 40,000 gallons a day for the Indian reserve number  26 one, and the holder of the licence is the Indian  27 Agency, Kispiox Band Counsel.  That's the one that is  28 apparently a source of domestic water for the -- for  29 the village of Kispiox.  30 THE COURT:  I'm with you except -- well, not quite, but my map  31 doesn't have a J on it, I don't think.  It has a D.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  If we look at M — 93M032.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  If your lordship will go back to the — the village  35 and go left on to Dale Creek.  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  You'll find a black dot with the letter J.  38 THE COURT:  Mine has a D.  Sorry.  There's no way I can make it  39 into a J.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, the D is the identifying letter for the  41 diversion from Sika dook Creek.  42 THE COURT:  Right.  And then I have a — to the right of a dot,  4 3 I have R/W.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  That's the right of way for the —  45 THE COURT:  Yes.  I don't know if the J's important or not, but  4 6 it's not on my map.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, is your lordship on Dale Creek? 938  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  And you found the black dot?  3 THE COURT:  I was on Dale Creek.  No.  I'm sorry.  Oh, you're  4 back up on Dale Creek now.  You're not dealing with  5 the Glen Vowell Reserve anymore?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  I'm going to come back to that.  7 THE COURT:  You're quite right.  It has a J at Dale Creek.  I  8 was still back at Glen Vowell.  You're way ahead of  9 me.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  As I say, bearing in mind that the printout  11 register is based on the alphabetical listing of  12 streams --  13 THE COURT:  All right.  Let me ask you something else.  It says  14 40,000.00 gallons a day.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  That's my understanding.  16 THE COURT:  What does W.W.K. mean?  17 MR. GOLDIE:  I think that's the use, waterworks.  18 THE COURT:  Waterworks.  All right.  Yes.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  There's a key —  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  — in this.  22 THE COURT:  That's right.  Thank you.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, turning over to page 194 to Sika dook Creek,  24 the second and third entry indicates that there are  25 two licences outstanding at the point identified with  26 D on Sika dook Creek.  One is a licence issued in 1967  27 for 15,000 gallons a day, waterworks.  The holder is  28 the Indian Agency, Glen Vowell Band.  The second is a  29 licence issued in 1977 for 15,000 gallons a day,  30 waterworks, and that is again the same holder of the  31 licence.  That -- I haven't endeavoured to exhaust the  32 references, but that will illustrate the sequence.  33 THE COURT:  They're probably cumulative, are they?  34 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, they are.  The two outstanding licences are  35 cumulative, yes.  The total would be 30,000 gallons a  36 day.  37 Finally, and this again arises out of Mrs.  38 Johnson's evidence, I wish to deal with the map  39 indicating district lots.  The large map --  4 0 THE COURT:  You're leaving water now?  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I am.  Sorry, my lord.  The large map is  42 exactly the same as has been used by the plaintiffs  43 and the defendants with respect to the land claims  44 area.  That is to say, it is -- it is the same scale  45 and it is based on the National Topographic Series,  46 but I'm instructed that with respect to this map, that  47 the boundaries are those of June the 12th, 1985, which 939  1 was the --  2 THE COURT:  Boundaries of the claim area.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  That map shows surveyed district lots as they  4 are throughout the claims area, and if one wishes to  5 identify the date of gazetting and surveying from the  6 district lot which is shown on that map, one can do so  7 by reference to the supporting documentation.  There  8 are two volumes of supporting documentation.  The  9 first to which I'll refer is identified as Map 12,  10 surveyed district lots consolidation by N.T.S. maps,  11 Ministry of Forest and Lands' supporting  12 documentation.  It contains, as do the others, the --  13 the selection from the statutes and the description of  14 the listing and under Tab B, your lordship will find a  15 printout of district lots and on page 4 -- the page  16 number is at the head of the column, and this is --  17 this printout is not created for the purposes of -- in  18 the ordinary course of business.  This is a printout  19 of district lots and township sections in the claims  20 area.  But the -- the information on this printout is  21 from the departmental records created in the ordinary  22 course of business.  23 Now, to take an example from Mrs. Johnson's  24 territory and using the -- the -- the map of her  25 southern territory, which has been filed as Exhibit  26 179A, I believe it is, there are two district lots on  27 the highway 344 and 345.  They're between the village  28 of Kispiox and Glen Vowell.  29 THE COURT:  You said 344 and —  30 MR. GOLDIE:  354.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  If one wishes to determine when those lots were  33 surveyed and gazetted, one can determine that from  34 page 4.  Those two lots are the fifth and sixth from  35 the bottom on page 4.  Lot 344 has an area of 64.75  36 hectares.  The official plan number is 10TR1.  It was  37 surveyed in 1905 and it was gazetted in the same year.  38 The N.T.S. map sheet is given, and then the -- a  39 reference to the B.C. Map System, which is an  40 adaptation, or follows that.  345 is 35.6 hectares and  41 was gazetted and surveyed at approximately the same  42 time.  And one can do that with every number district  43 lot.  Now, that doesn't -- that doesn't purport to say  44 anything about ownership.  It simply gives the -- the  45 date of surveying and gazetting.  46 THE COURT:  But a district lot has been established.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  And that's — now, Volume 2 is simply 940  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13 THE  14 MR.  15 THE  16 MR.  17 THE  18 MR.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  2 6 THE  27  2 8 MS.  29  30  31  32 THE  33 THE  34  35 THE  36 THE  37 MR.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  illustrative of the -- of the detail which is  established in respect of each district lot.  It is  identified as supplement to Map 12 and is in relation  to one district lot.  I don't propose to go through  that, but it provides the Court and my friends with a  sense of the degree of detail that is involved.  Now, my lord, those are the documents which I ask  your lordship to admit.  I'll summarize the -- well,  perhaps I can leave the numbering until my friend has  made his submission.  I -- I drew your lordship's  attention to the marginal rule that we rely upon and I  don't propose saying anything further on that.  COURT:  That rule is again?  GOLDIE:  Under Tab 4, I believe it is, of the blue book.  COURT:  And it's Rule 4 0 — 40, 41 and 42?  GOLDIE:  Yes.  COURT:  I'll look at it again.  GOLDIE:  And as I submitted to your lordship, that the  exercise of your lordship's discretion may be made at  any time before trial or after trial and the -- the  statements on oath are contained in the affidavits and  I don't propose to go through that.  I don't think I  need to -- to underline the convenience and saving of  time which will flow from this, and I prefer only at  this time to hear my friend's submissions.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Macaulay's not with us.  Miss Koenigsberg?  KOENIGSBERG:  We have no submission except to support the  inclusion of this material.  We have in fact admitted  this material as requested prior to trial upon  examination.  Thank you.  Mr. Rush?  Madam Registrar, would you move this  away?  REGISTRAR:  I certainly will.  COURT:  Mr. Rush?  Well, my lord, I think I may have spoken  precipitously yesterday concerning the assessment of  the material.  I was prepared to deal with certain  aspects of this.  I don't have any of this material  with me here and, accordingly, I haven't reviewed it  in the detail that obviously my learned friend has and  I haven't had a chance to evaluate it in the same way  that your lordship has as you were going through it.  I think, in the circumstances, what I would like to do  is to stand the motion down, have a look at the  material and make my submissions based on that.  I had  COURT  COURT  RUSH: 941  1 come prepared to deal with principally the trap line  2 issue, expecting for the most part that the material  3 would be analogous to it.  I find in listening to it  4 that I don't really think I can serve my clients well  5 by not looking more meticulously at the material that  6 has been presented to you and so for that reason, I  7 would ask it to be stood down at least for the lunch  8 hour.  I'd like to review the material as it's come  9 forward.  10 THE COURT:  Well, what are you suggesting we do, Mr. Rush?  I'm  11 entirely sympathetic with any reasonable  request you  12 have for some time to look at this material, but what  13 are you suggesting we do in the meantime?  Mr.  14 Goldie's at the point where I think he says to  15 complete my cross-examination of Mrs. Johnson, I want  16 to put some of this material to her.  Is it your  17 suggestion that we should put that off, so can we  18 proceed with another witness, or are you suggesting we  19 just adjourn until this afternoon?  20 MR. RUSH:  No.  I'm not suggesting that.  There is Mr.  21 Macaulay's continued cross-examination which he  22 started yesterday.  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 MR. RUSH:  And subject to talking with Mr. Grant, I would  25 propose that we begin the other witness if -- if in  26 fact Mr. Macaulay finishes prior to noon and -- and  27 then complete Mr. Goldie's cross-examination such as  28 it would be depending on your lordship's ruling.  29 THE COURT:  All right.  Any difficulty with that, Mr. Goldie?  30 MR. GOLDIE:  No, my lord.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Well, then is Mr. Macaulay nearby?  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  He is, I think.  33 My lord, I wonder if the matter could be stood down  34 for the morning break.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I think Mr. Macaulay anticipated that Mr. Rush  37 might be --  38 THE COURT:  All right.  We'll take the morning adjournment.  39 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in Court.  40  41  42 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  43  44  45  46  47 942  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  12 a true and accurate transcript of the  13 proceedings herein to the best of my  14 skill and ability.  15  16  17  18 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  19 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 943  23  24  25  26  27  28  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AFTER SHORT RECESS)  I understand you digested all the material, Mr.  Rush.  Are you ready to proceed?  Not quite.  Mrs. Johnson please,  remind you, you are still under oath.  7 THE COURT:  All right then  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Witness, I  9 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  10 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  My Lord, at the adjournment last night I had an  enlargement made of the Schedule D.  The witness  identified it as being a schedule to the petition,  Exhibit 26, and I am going to try to have another run  at it --  Thank you.  MACAULAY:  -- using that one.  Your Lordship will notice --  I don't know if the Registrar kept the original  Schedule D.  I think it should be put before the  witness again.  21 THE COURT:  I have my copy here.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  The original was laid out a little differently.  We scaled -- the upper right-hand corners disappeared  now because of the enlargement of the information  concerning site numbers, clans, owners and so on,  otherwise, I hope -- I trust it's the same.  And we'll  see if we can do a little better with the enlargement.  12  13  14  15  16 THE COURT:  17 MR.  18  19  20  JOHNSON:  2 9 CONTINUATION OF CROSS EXAMINATION OF MRS.  30  Q   Mrs. Johnson, you remember yesterday you agreed with  me that Schedule D, this is the smaller version, the  original version, was one of the schedules to that  petition that we looked at yesterday?  A   Yes.  MACAULAY:   My Lord, could that be marked 2 6-A?  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  38 MR. MACAULAY:  The petition itself was 26.  39 THE COURT:  All right.  40 MR. MACAULAY:  There were a series of schedules, only one of  which appears relevant to this.  31  32  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  41  42 THE COURT:  43  44  45  4 6 MR.  26-A.  (EXHIBIT NO. 26-A: SCHEDULE D TO PETITION)  47  MACAULAY:  Q   And now, Mrs.  Johnson, I'll show you an enlargement. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  944  It's an improvement, it's not -- perhaps it's not  ideal.  The best we can do up here today.  And you  told His Lordship yesterday about a number of fishing  sites, and I would like to go over that and try and  locate them, if possible, with you.  Now, I am going to refer, My Lord, to Volume 12 of  the transcript of proceedings at page 770, first of  all.  This is not one of the sites the witness  mentioned in the cross-examination yesterday.  Witness, a few days ago, on May 28th, in your evidence  you referred, first of all, to a fishing site near  Wilt gallii bax, called Gwin --  Gwin Disgyenn.  That's number 328, My Lord.  And it's across -- it's -- and you gave evidence that  it was on the same side as Glen Vowell along the  Skeena River.  Do you remember that?  Yes.  And so looking at this enlargement of Schedule D, can  you -- here is Glen Vowell, part of the Sikadook  Indian Reserve, number 2.  Is it along the river bank  somewhere near where you see the words "Glen Vowell"?  It's past Glen Vowell.  It's somewhere not far from  the end of Glen Vowell where the Smoke House ends.  When you say -- now, this -- I assume this is -- north  is at the top of the page?  Yes.  So it's south of the Glen Vowell village, is it, down  towards the bottom?  North of the Glen Vowell village.  North of the Glen Vowell village?  Yes, where the Smoke House is, and there is a spring  water there.  You see the Indian reserves marked out on this  Schedule D, don't you, the various reserves?  Yes.  They are rectangles, most of them rectangles anyhow?  Yes.  And there is a space between Sikadook, number 2, and  Kispiox, number 1?  Yes.  Is that a fishing site in that space between the two  reserves or can you not tell from that?  There is another fishing site between Kispiox and Glen  Vowell, that is called An Guux Di Git wank, like I  told before, but this fishing site you are talking  about is not very far from Glen Vowell.  And vegetable 945  1 farm is not very far from Glen Vowell too, and that's  2 part of the farmers that took the land behind the  3 Smoke House.  4 Q   Well, then, the vegetable farm you have been  5 mentioning, that's not on a reserve, is it?  6 A   I don't know.  You said these reserve here?  7 Q   Well, you can see the outline of the reserve, the  8 Sikadook Indian Reserve?  9 A   Yes, but the vegetable farm is right on the highway,  10 the highway goes through our territory.  11 Q   Yes.  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And you can't tell whether the vegetable farms on the  14 reserve or not?  15 A   No.  16 Q   Now, the second site you mentioned, and you mentioned  17 that yesterday afternoon and also when Mr. Grant was  18 asking you questions, was called An Guux Di Git wank?  19 A   Yes, An Guux Di Git wank.  That means that they  20 whistle on the top of the hill.  21 Q   That's number 329?  22 A   In the very ancient time the folks from Kisgagas came  23 to go to town to Hazelton, Gitanmaax, and then whistle  24 on the top of the hill to let the folks know that they  25 were passing by.  But they holler -- those that live  26 at the Smoke House -- holler to them, "Come on down  27 and have something to eat with us", and that's what  28 they did in the olden days.  They never sell anything.  29 And they were having some nice soup fish, and that's  30 why they are called that Smoke House, An Guux Di Git  31 wank.  32 Q   Now, that's on -- that fishing site, the one you just  33 mentioned and given us the origin of the name of, is  34 that near two little islands that appear to be in the  35 Skeena River inside Kispiox number 1?  You see two  36 little islands there?  37 A   Yes, that's where.  And after grandmother is the  38 one -- that the other grandmother is the one that last  39 lived there with her husband, and the grandmother's  40 chief name is Gwin lax nisims, and they live there,  41 but grandmother got --  42 THE COURT:  Just a moment, just a moment.  Madam Reporter, did  43 you get that name?  44 THE REPORTER:  Yes, My Lord.  45 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay, did you say Hazelton Indian Reserve  46 number 1 or Kispiox Indian Reserve number 1?.  47 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm sorry, it's Kispiox.  I should have said 946  1 Kispiox Indian Reserve number 1.  2 THE COURT:  Well, aren't the two islands down by Hazelton —  3 MR. MACAULAY:  No, there are a couple of islands down in the  4 river.  The Kispiox Reserve number 1 as well, My Lord.  5 THE COURT:  Well, you said Kispiox number 1, I just want to make  6 sure that's what you mean.  7 MR. MACAULAY:   It's Kispiox number 1.  I didn't say — well, if  8 I said Hazelton --  9 THE COURT:  No, you said Kispiox.  10 MR. MACAULAY:  I meant Kispiox.  11 THE COURT:  I was confused by the reference.  12 MR. MACAULAY:   And the witness and I were both looking at  13 little islands in the stream in the river.  14 MR. GRANT:  For the record, you were looking at it, I was  15 looking at it, I don't know if the witness was looking  16 at those islands.  That's what you were pointing to.  17 The witness was giving a description.  18 THE COURT:  Where are these islands please?  19 MR. MACAULAY:  Opposite numbers 121 and 122.  2 0 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  And that's where they  21 whistled on the top of the village?  22 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  So after grandmother got arthritis.  I have  seen her when I was small and her husband's name is  Guxw na hakst.  He comes from the House of Ma'uus at  Kispiox, and they got family.  So they move the Smoke  House on this side, where they cleared the land, and  they got a nice land there on the island.  LAY:  On the island?  Yeah. And they move the Smoke House there after she  was sick, but they still fish across -- across where  the Smoke House used to stand before.  Now, the third fishing site you mentioned on May 28th,  that's when Mr. Grant was asking you questions, you  connected with Holidays Ranch?  Yes.  And is Holidays Ranch outside the Kispiox Reserve?  Yes.  Is it north of Kispiox?  North, yes.  It's north?  Yes.  And Holidays Ranch is on the river somewhere, is it?  Yes, close by the river.  Now, as we go north on the Skeena, there is a larger  island in the river.  You see that larger island?  Yeah.  23  24  25  26  27  2 8 MR.  MACi  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A 947  1 Q   Which is outside any reserve?  2 A   Yeah.  3 Q   Is Holidays Ranch near that island or is it farther  4 north again?  5 A   Farther, farther south.  6 Q   Farther south?  7 A  Where Holidays Ranch is.  And that's where the Smoke  8 House stands is near the Skeena River close to the  9 island.  They call that island T'a'ootsip.  10 THE COURT:  Spelling please.  11 THE TRANSLATOR: Number 341.  12 THE WITNESS:  That's why the fishing sites name is  13 Ga'tgits'unhlt'a'ootsip.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  Maybe the translator —  15 THE TRANSLATOR: 338.  16 THE COURT:  Was the island 371 or 341?  17 THE TRANSLATOR: 341.  18 THE COURT:  Thank you.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  20 Q   And that fishing site is south of the island that you  21 just named?  22 A   That's —  23 Q   Or is it right across from the island?  24 A  Across the island.  25 Q   Across from the island?  2 6       A   Yeah.  27 Q   And which -- is it Yal who fishes there now?  28 A   Yes, Yal is fishing there now.  That's Wilfred Gawa.  29 Q   If you -- number 4.  The fourth site you mentioned  30 when Mr. Grant was asking you questions is Miinhl  31 Antselda.  Do you remember that?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   That's number 335, My Lord.  34 THE COURT:  Thank you.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  36 Q   And that's named after the little mountain?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And there is a trail that goes around it and there is  39 some smooth stones nearby?  40 A   Yes, there were things, smooth stones, and they called  41 those stones An Saalda'm lo'op.  42 Q   That appears in the transcript already, My Lord.  43 That's Volume 12 at page 773, the last line.  44 Now, on Schedule D -- we are going north again, I  45 guess -- that's those smooth rocks, and the little  46 mountain are beyond north of the island, the larger  47 island on the river? 948  1 A   Yes, way beyond there is -- I remember the rest of the  2 families fishing sites after the island, the island,  3 then there is Dawamuxw's fishing site after that.  4 Q   Well, we will come to Delgam Uukw's fishing site in a  5 minute, but I want to stop at the one named after the  6 mountain and the one near the smooth rocks.  7 MR. GRANT:  Before my friend proceeds, the witness said  8 Dawamuxw, my friend said Delgam Uukw.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  I stand corrected.  10 MR. GRANT: So I believe Dawamuxw is number 3 on the list.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  Okay.  12 Q   But I'm now asking you to help me locate Miinhl  13 Antselda.  Is it on the -- as you look at this, the  14 right bank of the river or the left bank?  15 A   The left bank, as you go up north, yeah, and you could  16 see the small little mountain.  It's a large mountain  17 but it's smaller than the rest, that's why I call it  18 small.  It took me two hours to walk up that mountain  19 to pick some huckleberries.  20 Q   On that side of the river, that is on the left as you  21 go north, there is a reserve.  22 My Lord, perhaps I should stop here, and this is  23 maybe a good time to point out that starting at  24 Kispiox and going north there is a series of reserves  25 and they have Indian reserve numbers.  One of the  26 features is that they go from 1 to 10, but there is no  27 number 2, for whatever reason, and I am going to ask  28 the witness now about number 4, which is Quan,  29 Q-u-a-n, S-k-u-m-k-s-i-n, m-i-c-h, m-i-c-h, although  30 on the map there doesn't seem to be any reference to  31 K-s-i-n.  It's just called Quan Skumksin mich mich.  32 You see that number 4 reserve on the left bank of  33 the river going north, it's marked "IR4" underneath?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Are you familiar with that little reserve?  Do you  36 know if you drove along or went along the river, could  37 you spot that reserve?  38 A   Is it on this side?  39 Q   Well, it's on the Kispiox side of the river.  40 A   Oh, yes.  41 Q   On the left as you go north.  Have you ever been to  42 that reserve?  43 A  All I know is that's why I am trying to tell you how  44 many Smoke Houses between Gaakhl An tselda 'til it  45 gets to Gaakhl An tselda.  I was started on Delgam  46 Uukw's Smoke House, not far from  47 Ga'tgits'unhlt'a'ootsip, and after that Delgam Uukw, 949  1 as you go up north, and there is Delgam Uukw's Smoke  2 House.  And go up north and again there is Haawx'  3 Smoke House.  4 MR. MACAULAY:  Just a minute.  Get the name for that one.  5 THE TRANSLATOR: Number 27.  6 THE WITNESS:   And go up -- I could see Haaxw' smoke coming out  7 of near the river when we pick blueberries, and not  8 far from that is Ts'uuts' Smoke House.  Ts'uuts comes  9 from the House of Gitginuxw at Kispiox.  10 THE COURT:  Just a moment please. Go ahead.  11 THE WITNESS:  So Ts'uuts Smoke House name is Anx kyo'o.  And I  12 forget to tell Delgam Uukw's Smoke House name.  It's  13 name is An ax biisxw.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  Have you got that number?  15 THE TRANSLATOR: I don't think it's written down.  16 MR. GRANT:  It's not on the list.  17 THE WITNESS:    And I forget to tell Delgam Uukw's Smoke House  18 name, the name is Gwank sim si mihl mihl.  That means  19 they got a spring water that's very cold during the  2 0 hot summertime.  21 MR. MACAULAY:  22 Q   Now, the smoke -- your fishing site, the one you  23 describe as An tselda, is that farther north than all  24 those Smoke Houses you just mentioned?  25 A   Yes, this is after Ts'uuts Smoke House, then you still  26 go up north, then you will get to the trail to Gaakhl  27 An tselda.  28 Q   Which is your fishing site?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And is that a fishing site used by Tsibasaa?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Now, you look on Schedule D and you will notice I have  33 highlighted them so they are easier to read.  You will  34 notice in the petition Tsibasaa claimed four sites and  35 he put numbers opposite them, 160, 161, 162 and 163,  36 and then you find those numbers on the river, on both  37 sides of the river, near Indian reserve 7 and 6.  Is  38 that where -- approximately where An tselda is?  39 A   Because I didn't see the little mountain on the map.  40 Q   No, unfortunately there is no mountain on the map.  41 Do you know where the Sidina reserve -- oh, there are  42 two or three Sidina reserves -- do you know where,  43 say, number 7 Indian reserve is on the left side of  44 the river?  Have you ever been to that reserve?  45 MR. GRANT:  Maybe my friend could ask her one question or the  46 other.  She may have been to that reserve, but if she  47 doesn't know where it is, that doesn't help.  You 950  1 asked two questions, that's all.  2 MR. MACAULAY:  All right.  3 Q   Have you ever been to Indian reserve number 7, which  4 has the name Kisanuska?  5 A   How do you pronounce that?  6 Q   Well, I don't know how you will pronounce it, but I  7 will spell it.  K-i-s-a-n-u-s-k-a.  It's one of the  8 Kispiox reserves, Kisanuska.  9 Q   Is that a familiar name?  10 THE COURT:  Pronounce it for her, Madam Translator.  11 THE TRANSLATOR: It's Kisanuska, and I don't know what that  12 means.  I didn't get spelling.  13 THE COURT: K-i-s-a-n-u-s-k-a.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  It looks like an "o" on the map, doesn't it?  Our  15 list of reserves, which will be produced in due  16 course, spells it as K-i-s-a-n-u-s-k-a, but it bears  17 the same number, number 7.  It's either Kisanusko or  18 Kisanuska.  And I take it the witness isn't familiar  19 with that name?  20 A   No.  All I seen when I was small and is all those  21 Smoke Houses that I mentioned, and I know all those  22 people that live there.  23 Q   Have you ever heard of the Indian reserve number 9  24 called Andak, A-n-d-a-k, on the left side of the  25 Skeena River as you go north?  Did you ever hear of  26 that one?  2 7 THE TRANSLATOR: Andak.  28 THE WITNESS:  Andak.  2 9 THE TRANSLATOR: Andak.  30 THE WITNESS:  Andak.  No.  31 MR. MACAULAY:  32 Q   Have you ever heard of a reserve, a Kispiox Reserve  33 called Sidina, S-i-d-i-n-a?  34 THE TRANSLATOR: Sidina.  35 THE WITNESS:  No.  3 6 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, in your evidence, Mrs. Johnson, you mentioned  some fishing sites of Yal's near a bridge?  Yes.  And just north of the bridge, is it?  No, south of the bridge.  South of the bridge?  I didn't see it, all I see is Yal's Smoke House when  we go to a little trail to go to Hazelton.  There is a  shortcut.  On Schedule D Yal has listed as his fishing sites  number 156 and 157, and you have to go over to the  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47 951  1 left-hand side of the page, there is a special diagram  2 showing a small stretch of the Skeena River, and there  3 you find where 156 and 57, and then you see a bridge.  4 Do you see that?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   That is supposed to represent a bridge, that straight  7 line across the river?  8 A   Yeah.  9 Q   Now, he or somebody on his behalf put those fishing  10 sites on the north side of the bridge?  11 A   Oh, yeah.  12 Q   But you say that's not what you recall?  13 A   No, it's on the south side where I seen the Smoke  14 House.  Wilfred Gawa knows where those fishing sites  15 are.  16 Q   Well, if he says they are on the north side, then you  17 accept that?  18 A   No.  19 Q   The bridge?  20 A   No, it's on the south side.  21 Q   It's on the south side?  22 A   Yeah.  23 Q   Okay.  24 THE COURT:  Do you know which bridge we are talking about?  25 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, it's on the diagram.  26 THE COURT:  Yes, but which bridge is it?  2 7 MR. MACAULAY:  28       Q   Which bridge is that, Mrs. Johnson?  Has it got a  2 9 name?  30 A   The bridge between Kispiox and Hazelton?  31 THE COURT:  Yes, but —  32 THE WITNESS:  They call this bridge Ganexsim aakhl tsilaasxw.  33 That's what they call this place, Ganexsim aakhl  34 tsilaasxw.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  We better have that spelling.  I don't know if  36 that's on any list.  37 THE TRANSLATOR: Do you want the spelling?  3 8 MR. MACAULAY:  Do you want it spelled, My Lord?  39 THE COURT:  I would like to get some identification which bridge  40 we are talking about.  It doesn't seem to me to be the  41 bridge that crosses into Kispiox.  42 THE TRANSLATOR: No.  43 MR. MACAULAY:  It's on the highway to Kispiox.  44 THE COURT:  So somewhere considerably south to where we have  45 been talking about?  46 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, it's obviously south of Kispiox.  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes. 13 THE COURT  14 MR. GRANT  15 THE COURT  952  1 THE TRANSLATOR: It's called 4 Mile Bridge.  2 MR. MACAULAY:  I'll suggest to the witness —  3 Q   Is it also called 4 Mile Bridge?  4 A   Yes, they call it 4 Mile Bridge.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you. Thank you Madam Translator.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  7 Q   And as you drive from Hazelton on the highway to  8 Kispiox, you cross that bridge?  You cross the Skeena  9 on that bridge?  10 A   Yes.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  There was evidence about 4 Mile Canyon, My Lord,  12 and I guess that must be what it is.  That's not the big suspension bridge, is it?  No, My Lord.  Thank you.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  17 Q   Now, finally, Mrs. Johnson, you mentioned a -- I think  18 you mentioned a site on the Kispiox River, a fishing  19 site on the Kispiox River?  2 0 A   Yeah.  21 Q   Am I correct in my understanding of your evidence?  22 Did you say "yes", that your House has a site on the  23 Kispiox, a fishing site?  24 A  Which part?  25 Q   Well, in your evidence a few days ago, when you were  26 responding to Mr. Grant's questions, he asked you --  27 one of the questions he asked you --  28 MR. GRANT:  What page?  29 MR. MACAULAY:  It's at page 775 of Volume 12, My Lord.  30 MR. MACAULAY:  He asked you, and I'll read his questions.  He  31 said:  32  33 "Q   Does Antgulilbix have any fishing sites  34 on the Kispiox River?"  35  36 And your answer was:  37  38 "A   There's a fishing site not far from the  39 village where -- where late Fred White used  40 to fish.  I remember the spot and my  41 grandmother used to fish there too.  It's  42 not far from the village and that's all the  43 fishing site I know."  44  45 Q   Do you remember that?  4 6 A   Yeah.  47 Q   Is that on the Kispiox River? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  953  Yes.  And on number -- on Schedule D, this map we have been  looking at, there is a -- the Kispiox River starts at  the village and goes north as well, as well as goes --  and there is a bend, a very marked bend in the river.  You see that?  Yeah.  Now, is the fishing site you just talked about, Fred  White's site, is that north of that bend or south of  the bend?  South of the bend.  Okay.  And it's still being used by members of your  family, is it?  Yeah.  When did you first go to the coast to Port Edwards  during the fishing season?  When did you start going  to the coast?  After I started to work, then I go back and forth to  the coast.  What age were you when you first went to the coast to  work?  A long time ago they didn't speak about ages.  As soon  as you are 12, then you start to work in the cannery.  Did you start working in the cannery when you were 12?  Yes.  Did you go down every summer to the cannery for many  years?  Yes.  You used to go down on the train?  Is that how you  would get down there?  Yes.  And you would stay for what, June and July, or was it  a longer season than that?  Yeah, stay to August.  'til August?  Yeah.  And many people from Kispiox used to go down to Port  Edwards?  Yeah.  The men did the --  I mean not to Port Edwards, to the old cannery that  they call Belmoral Cannery.  It's a very old cannery.  And Port Essington too.  When you first worked, which cannery did you go to the  first time?  To Port Edward.  Port Edward? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  954  Yes.  Was that the Cassiar or the North Pacific?  Then to Belmoral Cannery.  And after it's closed down,  they move the people to Sunny Side Cannery.  Did you ever miss a summer?  That is, did you ever  stay home for a whole summer and not go to the  cannery?  No.  And how many people from Kispiox used to go every  summer, when you were young, when you were in your  teens?  There were many use to go to the cannery.  Did your father go down -- go to the coast to fish?  Yes, he is fishing.  And how about your grandfather?  This was while they was still using sailboats.  There were no motors on the --  No.  -- on the boats?  No.  And I was told the Indians were the first to fish  at Belmoral Cannery.  And they use only small little  skiffs with their wives as their partner, and they  didn't sleep during the night-time because of the  tide, they watch the boats; and the ladies didn't  drink tea or drink water during the daytime because  they were out fishing with their husbands.  Did you see that yourself when you were young?  I was told that.  I didn't see it, but I seen the big  sailboats that they use.  And your father started fishing before you were born,  did he?  Yes.  And did your grandfather go to the coast to fish?  Yes, he was fishing.  Daniel Gawa is fishing at  Haysport Cannery after he's about past middle age, but  he was still strong.  Your grandfather was born in 1866?  I don't know when he was born.  And in recent years many of the people from Kispiox  had commercial licenses and had their own boats as  well?  Yes, just recently after they used those gas boats.  Yes.  Yeah.  And before the canneries were rich and that's  how the Indians live.  And great-great grandmother  said that she washes fish for the old cannery and she  only gets $40.00 a month for working for whole summer. 955  1 But the food and clothing were very cheap in those  2 days.  They said a whole bundle of cloth, nice cloth,  3 would cost $1.50 a bundle, and they bought those  4 cloths to use for the Feasts like.  5 Q Now, the Tribal Council is involved in fishing now, is  6 it, the Tribal Council --  7 MR. GRANT: My Lord, that question is pretty vague and general.  8 I don't know what's meant by involved in fishing,  9 whether --  10 THE COURT:  It's a very general question.  I'm not sure it's one  11 the witness can't manage.  Shall we see?  12 MR. MACAULAY:  I'll start again.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  15 Q You were still a member of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  16 Tribal Council?  17 A Yes.  18 Q And you know that the Tribal Council is the registered  19 owner of fishing boats through a larger co-op?  2 0 A No.  21 Q Does the Tribal Council have anything to do with  22 commercial fishing, that you know of?  23 A Maybe some of them go out fishing, yes, some of the  24 members go out fishing.  Like I know a guy, a chief  25 from Hazelton, Spookw.  His name is Steve Robinson.  26 Q Yes.  27 A He goes out fishing every year.  But some of them  28 are --  29 Q Wallace Johnson goes out fishing, doesn't he?  30 A Yes.  31 Q And he has a boat called the Two Sisters?  32 A Yes.  33 Q How about Ambrose Stewart, is he also a commercial  34 fisherman?  35 A Yes.  36 Q Now, what relationship is Ambrose Stewart to you?  37 A He is my son-in-law.  38 Q And he has a boat?  39 A Yeah.  4 0 Q Do you remember the name of the boat?  41 A No.  42 Q How long is it since you have been to the coast?  43 A Ever since I was retired.  44 Q Well, how long is that?  45 A I think it's '74, 1974.  46 Q That was the last year you went to the coast?  47 A Yeah. 956  1 THE COURT:  Does that mean the last time you went to work or the  2 last time for any reason?  3 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I think the sense of the question was —  4 THE WITNESS:  No, I didn't work in the cannery for a few years.  5 Before that I was --  6 THE COURT:  Are you telling me that you haven't been to the  7 coast since 1974?  8 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Sorry, Mr. Macaulay.  10 THE WITNESS:  Because our Houses down there are filthy, you  11 know.  See how the companies treat the Indians after  12 they started them to be rich, and our Houses are  13 really stink and could smell the big rats underneath  14 the houses, and I'm glad I didn't go there anymore.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  16 Q   When was the last time you went to work at the  17 cannery?  What year was it, the last time you went to  18 work there?  19 A   It's in '73.  I just mended the nets, some nets.  20 Q   During the earlier years, before 1973, do you remember  21 the Department of Fisheries issuing food fishing  22 permits at the coast?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And the system for many years, the system was that the  25 fishermen would have their fish canned at the cannery;  26 is that right?  27 A   Yeah.  2 8       Q   And then they would bring the cans home?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And your late husband, Mr. Angus, did he used to do  31 that?  32 A   No.  33 Q   Mr. Angus was a fisherman, wasn't he?  34 A   Yes, he's a commercial fisherman.  35 Q   Peter Angus?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Yes.  But he didn't bring any cans --  38 A   No, no.  He never went out as a food fishing.  39 Q   Why was that?  40 A   Because we got -- we used to make our own can during  41 summertime on weekends.  42 Q   In the summertime when you come back to Kispiox on  43 weekends?  44 A   Yes, I mean at the cannery.  45 Q   At the cannery?  46 A   But there was still fishing at Kispiox when we come  47 back, like some steelheads and cohoe. 957  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11 MR.  GRANT  12  13 MR.  MACAU  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  is he a commercial fisherman?  not the evidence.  Yal.  I don't believe  Right?  Yeah.  That's when you used the fishing sites that you gave  evidence about?  Yeah, yeah.  And Leonard Gawa,  Yeah.  And he is Yal?  Yes.  And —  :  My Lord, that's  that Leonard Gawa is  jAY:  I'm sorry.  Leonard Gawa is Gwin lax nisims.  It's Wilfred Gawa?  Yes, Wilfred is.  And is Wilfred Gawa a commercial fisherman?  He used to fish before, but he stopped going fishing.  The reason is because the government charge so much  taxes on those fishermen and they got nothing when  they go home.  They owed the taxes a lot of money, and  the next year they still will be paying taxes.  That's  why Wilfred stopped going down.  He didn't go fish  anymore.  And while the Indian is collecting all the  fish, and they done nothing to help those fishermen.  When the Fishery Department give the fishermen a day  or two fishing, and while they owed taxation many  thousands of dollars.  Your brother, Stanley Wilson, is he a -- that is your  brother, isn't it, Stanley Wilson?  Yeah.  Is he a commercial fisherman?  Yes, he's fishing before he's on the health.  He was a commercial fisherman when his health was  good?  Yes.  Did he go to the coast for many years?  Yes, he is fishing ever since he was young.  Okay.  Did the men go to the coast at the age of 12 or  13?  Did fishermen start that young?  Yeah, some go out with their Dads, and that's the time  they train them to be a fisherman.  Well, most of the members of your family were trained  as fishermen, were they?  Yeah.  And your -- the members of your House who have names  are the men, are they mostly fishermen? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  4 3 MR.  MACi  44  4 5 MR.  GRA1  46  47  958  Yeah.  Now, Daniel Gawa is your grandfather?  Yeah.  And did he leave a will when he died?  Yes, he leave a will for his wife and grandson,  Wilfred Gawa.  I'll show you a -- this is a document taken from  our -- well, it's our document number 3847, which is a  file, and I am going to show the witness the document.  I'll ask you if you have ever seen that before?  No, I never see this will, but I heard that he made a  will to some of these family, and he declared the land  across the Sportsman's Lodge.  It's a very large land,  and some of these daughters and their husband's helped  him clear the land, and that's why he used to say,  while he's still alive, that all his children should  be on the land and the grandchildren.  Well, in that will there are some names.  Wilfred Gawa  is one of them, isn't it?  Yes.  And that would be his grandson?  Grandson, yeah.  And Emily Latz was his daughter?  Daughter, yeah.  And Elizabeth Gawa, was that a daughter?  Yes, a daughter, but she died many years ago.  And then finally Harriet Gawa was a granddaughter, was  she?  Granddaughter, yeah.  Do you recognize -- one of the witnesseses is a Mr.  George Wilson.  Do you recognize that signature right  at the bottom of this document?  Yeah.  George Wilson?  That's his -- that's his granddaughter's husband.  He  died too.  And who is Mr. Rutherford?  He's a United Church Minister.  Did you know him, Mr. Rutherford?  Yeah.  He was at Kispiox?  Yes, he lives at Kispiox.  LAY:   Could that be marked, My Lord, as the next  exhibit?  :  My Lord, I object because I don't believe the  witness has identified that.  In fact she has  categorically said she has never seen that document 959  1 before.  2 THE COURT:  That's what she says.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  We'll mark it for identification.  4 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, I already raised the concern with respect  5 to these documents of Mrs. MacKenzie, and I think, if  6 the witness hasn't identified the document, I don't  7 see what utility it is for marking it for  8 identification at this point.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, there are documents of this kind that are  10 relevant to this action, My Lord, that may have to be  11 proved in a different way.  It's quite possible the  12 witness has not seen this before.  13 THE WITNESS:  And I notice, too, that he also mention a trap  14 line there --  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, yes, I think we noticed that.  16 Well, I think, Mr. Macaulay, if you have to prove  17 it in another way, you may have to prove it in another  18 way.  I don't think that's aided in any way by being  19 marked for identification now.  I don't think it's  20 proven now, and the -- I think we'll give it back to  21 you and look forward to seeing it again in a different  22 way, perhaps.  23 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, I'll show the witness another somewhat  24 similar document.  If you will read that, Mrs.  25 Johnson --  26 MR. GRANT: Which document is this from?  27 MR. MACAULAY:  This is from our file, 1439.  28 THE COURT:  This is a different Daniel Gawa from the previous  29 one or is it the same person?  30 MR. MACAULAY:  My instructions are it's the same person, My  31 Lord.  32 THE COURT:  What was the date of the other one?  33 MR. MACAULAY:  The other one was January 19th, 1945.  34 THE COURT:  Oh, all right.  This is a later will?  35 MR. MACAULAY:  Dealing with apparently different property.  36 THE COURT:  Oh, I see.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  Have you ever seen that document before?  No.  Did your grandfather have a -- 5 acres of land in --  on the Kispiox Reserve?  Yeah, he had little bit of land on Kispiox Reserve  and --  He had a house?  A house, yes.  And a barn?  And he had a small piece of land on the other side of  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  960  the river on the -- just close to the Kispiox Bridge.  Was that --  Maybe he includes that, that's why he says it's eight  acres of land, and he gave part of that land to my  auntie.  That's the land across the river, he gave it  to Emily Latz, part of the land.  Is the land across the river, is that in the reserve?  Yes, it's a reserve.  It's very close to Kispiox  Bridge.  What did Edith Gawa get?  She got some land?  Yes, she got the house and the land on the reserve.  But the land is not very good.  Just around the House  is good.  She used to plant potatoes there.  But down  below the Kispiox, close to the Kispiox River, is  nothing but rocks.  They used to make a fence there,  and while there was still straw, and that's why they  keep the cattle in.  Did your grandfather, when he died, did he have  cattle?  Yes, cattle while there was still straw, but after he  died, grandmother looks after just very few, two or  three.  And your grandmother got a house?  Yeah.  And did that house later go to Wilfred Gawa?  Yeah.  But he didn't rebuild it and it was burnt down  when the workers from the Band office burned the  grass; and they didn't put the fire out before they go  for lunch, that's why the House is burnt down, after  grandmother died.  That was while Wilfred Gawa owned it?  Yeah.  And he was -- Wilfred was Daniel Gawa's grandson?  Yes.  Was Daniel Gawa Ma'uus?  Yes, he is Ma'uus.  Ma'uus?  From the Frog Tribe.  And he also got a Smoke House  this side of the bridge that we mentioned awhile ago.  That was before the Highway Department filled up the  road on the other side the bridge.  And I seen his  Smoke House stands there.  And his family are still  fishing on these fishing sites, they know where the  fishing sites are.  That's Ma'uus' family?  Yes.  Now, after your first husband died in 1950, did you 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  0  A  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  961  start dealing with the Indian agent about his estate?  No.  Or the Superintendent?  No.  You don't remember dealing with Mr. Boise?  No.  Do you recall making an affidavit concerning the day  of death and so on about Peter Angus, your first  husband?  Yes.  Yes.  But do you recall asking the Indian agent to get  Ernest Angus to waive his rights to the House on the  reserve?  Yes.  Yes.  That was Mr. Boise at that time, wasn't it?  Yes.  And Mr. Boise spoke to Ernest Angus or appears to have  spoken to Ernest Angus?  19 MR. GRANT:  I'm not sure that is admissible, My Lord.  Mr. Boise  20 spoke to Mr. Angus, unless the witness was present,  21 I'm not sure -- going into conjecture here --  22 MR. MACAULAY:  — sometimes that's the better way.  23 Q   After you made your request to Mr. Boise, Ernest Angus  24 did waive his rights to the House, didn't he?  Yeah.  And you got the House?  Yeah.  And then do you remember speaking to Mr. Boise about  getting the sale price of your husband's car?  No.  He got no car.  Well, didn't he have a Dodge when he died?  Yeah.  And that was what, a 1939 Dodge?  I think so.  And do you remember speaking to Mr. Boise about or  writing to Mr. Boise?  Yeah.  About getting the money from the sale of that car?  Oh, I don't remember it.  It's a long time ago.  You may have done?  Yeah.  And do you remember claiming $400 from the estate for  funeral expenses?  That is Peter Angus's estate.  No.  You don't recall that?  No.  Were you paid any amount from estate?  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42 MR.  GRA1  43  44  45  46  47  962  Yeah, I did pay it with -- do you mean the funeral  expenses?  Yes.  Yes, I did pay it for merchandise and furniture, yeah.  I gave my new set of furniture to late Mrs. Kate  Sterritt because she is the one that got the casket.  Did you get any money from your husband's estate in  the end?  No.  None at all?  No.  You don't recall receiving any money in October 1952?  No.  Now, Emily Latz, that was your aunt?  Yeah.  She was a daughter of David?  Daniel.  Daniel Gawa?  Yeah.  And do you remember filling out a form requesting the  Minister, that is the Minister of Indian Affairs, to  administer the estate of Emily Latz?  Yes, she stays with me before she's taken care in the  hospital.  But did you go to the office and sign an application  for administration of the estate?  Yeah.  And you knew what -- you knew that that was a request  that the Minister of Indian Affairs administer Emily  Latz's estate?  After she was in the hospital, they took off her  pension -- and sometimes 365, depends on how many days  it's in the month -- and they took it off because they  took care of her in the hospital.  But after she died did you sign a form -- this is in  1983 -- applying -- supporting an application that the  Minister of Indian Affairs be the administrator of the  estate?  Perhaps I can assist you.  I am a showing you  a document, this is from our file, 5036, and it's  entitled Election to Transfer/Application for  Administration.  :  I would ask, before that document is handed to the  court -- my friend appears to be -- practices  developed that he's -- I have been trying to be  diligent when I'm putting a document to the witness  and the witness can't identify it, I don't put it to  the Court, and I would ask if the witness can identify 5 THE COURT  6 MR. GRANT  7 THE COURT  963  1 the document first.  He has given two wills to the  2 Court which have not been identified by the witness,  3 and I ask that the documents not be tendered to the  4 Court until the witness identifies them.  Well, I haven't got this document yet.  I am just interjecting.  I understand it was signed by her, but you can find  8 out, Mr. Macaulay, if she admits her signature.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  10 Q   Did you sign that document?  11 A   Yeah, that's my signature.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  May it be marked?  13 THE COURT:  Yes, all right, it can be the next exhibit.  What is  14 the document please?  15 MR. MACAULAY:  Application to Transfer/Application for  16 Administration in the matter of the estate of Emily  17 Latz.  18 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you. 27.  19  20 (EXHIBIT NO. 27: APPLICATION TO TRANSFER/APPLICATION  21 FOR ADMINISTRATION IN THE MATTER OF THE ESTATE OF  22 EMILY LATZ)  23  2 4 MR. MACAULAY:  25 Q   And by this document you requested that the Minister  26 of Indian Affairs and Northern Development or his  27 authorized representative administer the estate?  28 That's what it was for?  2 9 A   Yeah.  30 Q   And your signature was witnessed by Rob McClure?   Do  31 you remember Rob McClure?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And do you recall telephoning Rob McClure or speaking  34 to him at his office a few days earlier, that is a few  35 days before February 11th, and telling him that you  36 had signing authority for Emily's bank account?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And that was so, wasn't it, you had the signing  39 authority?  4 0 A   Yeah.  41 Q   What is sometimes called the Power of Attorney; is  42 that what you had?  43 A   Yeah.  44 Q   And that was because she was ill and couldn't look  45 after those things herself?  4 6 A   Yeah.  47 Q   And you paid her expenses for her? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  964  Yeah.  And did you tell McClure you would pay the funeral  expenses from the account?  Yes.  And did you tell him that you had paid hospital costs  too, about more or less two hundred dollars?  Yeah, because I got all the receipts from the hospital  too.  Uh-huh.  And I know two ladies that takes care of it in the  hospital, that's -- she is Mrs. Neil Sterritt and the  other one is Shirley Muldoe.  Now, George Williams was your uncle?  Yes.  You have referred to him as your uncle?  Yeah.  He was your uncle.  And he was your -- he had your  name?  Long ago he had your name?  Yeah.  And he also was Tsibasaa at the same time?  Yes.  So he had both names?  Yeah.  And he owned about 75 acres of land?  Yes.  That was Crown land, wasn't it?  Yes, Crown land not far from Kispiox.  Was it north of Kispiox?  North, yeah.  About four or five miles north?  No, not very long.  And he had a farm there?  Yes.  Including wagons and plows and all of those sorts of  things?  Yeah.  And when he died, his wife, Alice Williams, inherited  the farm and the equipment and --  Yes.  — that?  Yes.  I am talking about the Crown land now.  Yeah.  And did she also inherit the reserve land that he had?  Yes.  He was --  And her children and grandchildren too. 965  1 Q   Now, what clan was Alice Williams?  2 A  Wolf.  3 Q   Was she Luus?  4 A   Yes, from Luus House.  5 THE COURT:  We are talking about Alice Williams now?  6 THE WITNESS:   Yeah.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  The widow.  8 THE COURT:  And she was Luus.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  10 Q   Was she Luus or was she in Luus's House?  11 A   Yes, Luus House, from Luus House, but she got a chief  12 name from Wii elaast's House at Kispiox when she was  13 young.  14 Q   And after she died did the -- her property go to  15 Steven Morrison?  16 A   Yes, but that's her son.  17 Q   Was that her adopted son?  18 A   No, that's her son, her real son, but Steve is raised  19 by Alice's elder sister, that's why it's Morrison.  20 Kathleen.  21 Q   Did you ever see Alice Williams will?  22 A   No, no.  But the only thing she did long long before  23 she died, she gave me a hundred to repair the  24 graveyard for her husband, George.  25 Q   Well, that money was supposed to go to Emily Latz,  26 wasn't it, and then Emily Latz became too ill to look  27 after that?  28 A   Yeah, she lost her sight and can't go around.  That's  29 why Alice was still alive at that time, and she is the  30 one that gave the money to me and we did repair the  31 graveyard.  32 Q   Well, didn't you get the money after she died, in  33 January 1974, January 15th, 1974?  34 A  Who was that?  Who do you mean?  35 Q   Well, that hundred dollars?  36 A   No.  She gave it to me before she died, before -- long  37 before she died, and she did see the graveyard is  38 repaired.  39 MR. MACAULAY:  I see it's 12:30, My Lord.  40 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you. Two o'clock please.  41  42 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS)  43  44  45  46  47 966  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  8 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  9 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  10 SKILL AND ABILITY.  11  12  13 LORI OXLEY  14 OFFICIAL REPORTER  15 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 967  THE  THE  MR. RUSH  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22 THE  23  24  25 THE  2 6 MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT:  REGISTRAR:  Order in Court.  COURT:  Well, Mr. Rush, are you anxious to make your  submissions or is Mr. Goldie -- or Mr. Macaulay  anxious to proceed with cross-examination?  Well, my proposal is that we put this application to  tomorrow morning at 9:30.  There is the consideration  of the documents that were given to your lordship this  morning which we're looking at, we looked at over the  noon hour, frankly, with the court's copy.  It wasn't  enough time.  I should advise you that after having heard Mr.  Goldie yesterday indicating that he was going to be  seeking to admit the maps and the supporting documents  in five separate areas, we contacted the person, our  cartographer in Vancouver, who is holding our  documents and asked him to ship them up.  We don't  have them yet and this explains part of the delay on  our part, but I think with the use of the Court's  copy, we can be ready to go in the morning, tomorrow  morning.  I think that's seems to me to be a reasonable  suggestion.  Any dissent from that conclusion?  All  right.  Mr. Macaulay then.  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Witness, I remind you you're still under oath.  MACAULAY:  Q   Mrs. Johnson, where is Heavener's Ranch?  Do you know  where that is?  Heavener's?  Heavener's Ranch?  It's right on my grandfather's  far from it.  That's -- that's  he willed to his children and his family, but it's an  ancient hunting ground.  Well, is there a ranch called Heavener's Ranch?  Yes.  And does that belong -- who does that belong to?  did that belong to?  I don't know.  Heavener's wife died long time ago.  She's an aged woman.  She is late Dick Lattie's  mother.  Whose mother?  Dick Lattie from Hazelton.  Perhaps we could have the spelling of that.  Is  Heavener's Ranch on the -- on reserve land?  It's -- it's a Crown land, but it's a -- a hunting  ground that belongs to Ma'uus.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  territory, not -- not  -- that's the land that  Who 96£  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  30  THE  COURT  31  32  33  34  35  MR.  MACAU  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  MACAU  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  So Heavener's Ranch is Crown land?  Yes.  Not on reserve?  No.  And the hunting ground next to it is Crown land too,  is it?  Yes.  Not on reserve?  No.  And all across it where the Sportsman's Lodge is,  that's Ma'uus' land too.  There is now a building called the Sportsman's Lodge?  Yeah.  And you say that's in Ma'uus' territory?  Yeah, yeah.  And your grandfather had a ranch next to Heavener's  Ranch, did he?  Yeah.  Right close to the Kispiox Village.  You could  see it across from the Sportsman's Lodge.  Did he keep horses there?  Yeah.  He keep all the cattle.  About 40 heads of --  of cattle he got there when he was still strong.  That's your grandfather, Daniel Gawa?  Yeah.  :  Mr. Macaulay, I have two notes.  One is Heavener's  Ranch is on my grandfather's territory and I've got  another note that says it's right next to my  grandfather's territory.  :  The second comment was made by Mr. Macaulay, not by  the witness.  He said it was on --  :  No.  She said earlier that it was right on my  grandfather's property and then she said right nearby  and then again.  It may be that the second suggestion  is by Mr. Macaulay, but I have it both ways by the  witness as well.  Can we clarify it?  jAY:  That is where the ranch was.  :  Are the two properties the same or are they  different properties?  LAY:  Well, now, you've told us about your grandfather's  ranch?  Yeah.  Which was on Crown land?  Yeah.  Is -- is that the same thing as Heavener's Ranch or is  it next door to Heavener's Ranch?  It's not far from -- from where grandfather lives  where the Heavener's Ranch is.  I remember one 969  1 incident perhaps that Heavener burn some brush and the  2 fire went all on grandfather's ranch and it burnt down  3 the -- the house that stands right near the river,  4 Kispiox River.  5 Q   And the Heaveners were settlers, were they?  6 A   Yeah, yeah.  This was after the first world war, after  7 Heavener come back from the first world war.  He lost  8 his arm.  9 Q   He was a soldier and he got some land when he got out  10 of the army?  11 A   Yeah.  On -- on grandfather's territory, and maybe  12 there's some other farmers there too.  13 Q   But your grandfather himself had a farm or a ranch  14 outside the reserve near Heavener's Ranch, next door  15 to Heavener's Ranch?  16 A   Yeah.  17 MR. MACAULAY   Does that —  18 THE COURT:  Oh, I think that's fairly clear, but I'm still left  19 in some doubt.  But I think it's a matter of  20 communication with the witness more than anything  21 else.  She's never come right out and said it as  22 clearly as I would hope, but I think she means they're  23 close by, but I don't know if she says they're close  24 by but they overlap or if she says they're close by  25 but they don't overlap.  I don't know.  26 MR. GRANT:  She said that he was a soldier and got land on  27 grandfather's territory.  28 THE COURT:  You see, that's why I'm in some doubt, because  29 grandfather's territory may refer to a claimed area.  3 0 MR. MACAULAY:  31 Q   When you say that Mr. Heavener, the old soldier, got  32 land on your grandfather's territory, you mean that  33 the government granted Mr. Heavener some land on the  34 traditional house territory?  35 A   Yes.  That's how they are.  They stole away the  36 ancestors' territory, but grandfather know it and she  37 didn't -- he didn't know what to do until -- until  38 some folks, when I was small, started the land claim  39 and they go to Ottawa.  40 Q   That was in 1927, was it?  41 A   No.  Long before that.  As far as I could remember, I  42 used to hear the -- the elders talk about it.  They  43 called the House of Parliament Wilp alalgyax.  That's  44 where people get together to talk, and they call the  45 land claim liseewa yip.  They talk among themselves  46 about the -- about the land.  They even go to Ottawa  47 to talk about it. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  970  And is this when you're 12 years old, something like  that?  Yes.  No.  Very small, but I didn't forget.  When you were very small, did you ever go into one of  the old long houses, the old houses that you  identified in photographs?  Yeah.  All my life they used some of those houses that  I identify as their Feast House, and this was before  they built the community hall.  And when you were small, did families live in those  long houses?  No.  They all move out.  Only few elders live in those  Feast Houses.  Did the chief of the -- of a house live in the long  house when you were young, say six or seven years old?  Yeah.  Some of them did, but some -- a lot of them  move out and built out -- built small houses.  And in the long houses, were there -- were there tiers  of benches along the walls?  Yeah.  One -- the ones against the walls were higher than the  ones in front of them, were they?  Yes.  Some are, and -- and some even higher.  That's  where the -- where the maids sat when they had the  show.  They said I was too old.  And the maids sat on  the higher benches to -- just to entertain the guests.  They didn't say anything.  They just dress up like  princesses and sat on those benches.  Today at Kispiox, are there any long houses?  No.  Just a community hall.  And when was the last of the long houses taken down?  About -- about 20 years ago.  When I see the last one  is taken down, that's Gutginuxw's house and they move  the building up to -- to the higher ground.  This was  after the flood.  There was a terrible flood in 1936  and a lot of small houses were washed out.  Well, is it after 1936 that the last long house was  taken down?  Yeah, yeah.  Was it because of the water damage that it was taken  down, in the flood?  Yeah.  There were -- Gyolugyet's house is not a very  old house, but it was taken by the flood.  And at Kispiox today, everybody lives in family  houses?  Yeah.  And each house holds its Feasts in the community hall; 971  1 is that right?  2 A   Yeah, yeah.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, I don't know if there's any doubt now  4 about what Mrs. Johnson was saying concerning her --  5 her grandfather's land.  6 THE COURT:  I think it's still open to argument either way on  7 the evidence.  She -- there's no doubt she says that  8 the -- that the Heavener Ranch is part of the  9 ancestral territory.  I don't know whether she's  10 suggesting that -- that the two Crown grants  11 overlapped in some way or whether there are two Crown  12 grants.  I still don't know whether they're still the  13 same property or part of the same property or totally  14 different properties.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  16 Q   Did any part of your grandfather -- your grandfather's  17 ranch, Daniel Gawa's ranch, overlap on the Heavener  18 Ranch?  19 A   The whole territory belongs to -- to my grandfather.  20 That's Ma'uus.  There were a lot of lakes on it.  I  21 didn't see it, but that's where they go to -- to catch  22 some beaver, and it's a hunting ground.  That's why I  23 don't know why Roy Wilson Sr. tried to register ours  24 that you have mentioned before and the rest of the  25 lawyer.  I don't know why, because next to Wil Masxwit  26 is my grandfather's boundary, and it's a very large  27 hunting ground, and it goes across to where the  28 Sportsman's Lodge is.  It'll be enough for many  2 9 families.  30 Q   Well, when Mr. Heavener moved in, did he put up a  31 fence?  32 A   Yeah.  33 Q   And he was putting up a fence on your grandfather's  34 land, is that it?  35 A   Yeah.  Yes.  36 Q   And did he get --  37 A   Yeah.  Like -- like, the vegetable farm did to our  38 land.  They put up the fence and we can't do anything  39 because the -- the government said it's theirs and  40 they sell it.  41 Q   Well, did your grandfather have Crown land?  Did he  42 have title to Crown land?  43 A   No.  44 Q   He didn't?  45 A   He knows it's an ancient land, trap line.  46 MR. MACAULAY:  I have no more questions for this witness.  47 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  I suppose the re-examination 972  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23 THE  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  should await the completion of the cross-examination,  Mr. Grant.  Are you able to proceed with another  witness, Mr. Grant?  MR. GRANT:  My lord, I wish to propose an alternative approach  to it.  That is, that subject to Mr. Goldie's  reserving the right to cross-examine with respect to  the maps, subject to that area, I'm prepared to deal  with the redirect on this witness on the other  evidence that has been called.  I wish to say that I  had anticipated being able to commence with the next  witness.  There has been some problems with the  documentary material that will go in with this  witness.  I have had persons who are in Hazelton now  bringing that material down and I would prefer, if at  all possible -- given the lunch hour discussion with  Mr. Rush and the application yesterday, I would prefer  that I would either redirect this witness now on the  areas that have been covered with a right to redirect  on anything arising from Mr. Goldie's cross, further  cross-examination, and then that we adjourn until  tomorrow morning, and I would be prepared to start the  next witness first thing tomorrow morning.  COURT:  Well, let -- let me explore with counsel something  else.  I have no doubt that the problem of Mr.  Goldie's use of maps and -- well, I put it the other  way -- documents kept in the ordinary course of  business and maps prepared from them is going to arise  from time to time during the course of the  cross-examination.  The time -- the last time when Mr.  Goldie would have to prove those documents might be in  the -- during the course of his case.  Is there any  middle ground that -- that would permit Mr. Goldie to  use those documents now as if they were proven for the  purpose of cross-examination and leave, until we have  some experience with these problems, a definitive and  comprehensive ruling on admissibility or  non-admissibility?  It isn't that Mr. Goldie's under  any obligation at this time to prove the documents  this way or any way.  He can do that when he opens his  case or during the course of his case.  But is there  any serious difficulty with him doing what he can with  the witness now so that we can get on with the case  and -- and letting him prove documents through the  witness, if possible, and leaving it to some other  time so that Mr. Rush won't be under the pressure of  having to do a hurry-up submission, and at the same we  can get on with the trial.  Is there any difficulty was to  973  1 with that?  2 MR. GRANT:  The short answer is no.  The explanation is that we  3 have felt that the better course of proceeding  4 have maps, such as the trap line map, put to the  5 witness and to have the witness examined on that as to  6 her knowledge or his knowledge or whether or not that  7 witness can identify the map.  In the case of the trap  8 line map, at least in one portion of it, the witness  9 was able to do so.  I think we've maintained from the  10 outset that that was the proper way to go.  And,  11 frankly, I thought that was what was going to happen  12 in respect of the other maps which Mr. Goldie had  13 indicated he was going to put to the witness and  14 instead the documentary evidence and so on as well as  15 having the map accepted for the truth of what it said,  16 the opinions that it carried, was sought to be  17 admitted as an exhibit.  18 Now, to come back to the question, we have no  19 objection to my friends putting any of their documents  20 or their maps to the witness and to be examined on  21 that for the purpose of determining whether or not  22 they've got anything to say about it.  But should my  23 friends wish to go further, it is that that we want to  24 make our submission on.  25 THE COURT:  Well, I think this matter should be resolved at an  26 early date, but I'm not sure it should be resolved  27 today or tomorrow or before Mr. Goldie finishes with  28 the witness.  Perhaps we should hear from Mr. Goldie.  29 But I can say now that I have in mind that after I  30 hear Mr. Rush's considered submissions, if I'm against  31 him, I think that I would say I still am not sure that  32 I want to rule on such a comprehensive matter until  33 I've had some experience with the documents anyway,  34 and -- and there's been an opportunity to test them in  35 some variety of ways, which may or may not arise.  But  36 I think I should ask Mr. Goldie if there's any  37 difficulty him proceeding with his cross-examination  38 on the basis that he can use the documents without it  39 being put in as evidence in the case at this -- at  40 this instance.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I think the difficulty is indicated by my  42 friend Mr. Rush's comments.  I can put one of these  43 documents to a witness and the chances are 99 to 100  44 or 99 to 1 that the witness will have never seen them  45 before.  46 THE COURT:  Well, I'm not suggesting that that should be  47 conclusive.  I'm suggesting that you be allowed to go 974  1 ahead and use the documents for the purposes of your  2 cross-examination as you may be advised without a  3 prior ruling that they're all admissible to prove the  4 truth of the facts stated in them and we'll see how we  5 get along.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm quite happy to do that, except that at some  7 point --  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  -- I -- I want these documents to speak to the  10 truth of the matters therein contained.  And if I may  11 give your lordship one example, and it may be of  12 assistance to my friend, the mineral tenures map, I  13 say, shows that there is a mineral claim on Mrs.  14 Johnson's land.  I want to put documents to her on the  15 basis that that is a proven fact.  16 THE COURT:  Well, she may know nothing about that though.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, that may be so, but that — if that was as  18 far as it went, I would not have proven the fact that  19 there was a mineral claim on her land.  2 0 THE COURT:  No.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  But I want to -- I want that fact to be proven as a  22 basis for my cross-examination.  She may say I have  23 never heard of it, but all that that does is say that  24 she has not heard of something which is in existence.  25 THE COURT:  Well, the very most you would get at this stage  would be a ruling that the documents may be marked as  exhibits and become evidence of the trial, but they  certainly wouldn't -- there wouldn't be any ruling  that they're conclusive.  Oh, well —  They would be prima facie evidence at best  rebuttable by contrary -- or by evidence to the  contrary.  I -- I agree with that, my lord.  They -- they  35 would -- that fact would stand --  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  -- as if -- well, it would stand exactly in the way  38 it is presented.  Namely, that so far as documents  39 created in the ordinary course of business go, the  40 government records show a mineral claim.  41 THE COURT:  Well, before the end of this week or early next  42 week -- I don't think it matters much, although the  43 rest of the week may -- may prove me wrong.  It seems  44 to me that we ought to go ahead with the trial.  You  45 should cross-examine Mrs. Johnson.  I'm prepared to  46 rule tentatively and I hesitate to rule tentatively,  47 but I think I should in this case, that you can use  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  GOLDIE  31  THE  COURT:  32  33  34  MR.  GOLDIE 975  1 these documents as you may be advised.  Put them to  2 her and get whatever admissions you can, if any, from  3 them.  Put propositions to her that on the basis the  4 documents are proven, which is nothing more or less  5 than a hypothetical suggestion anyway, and I'm not  6 sure you're going to get any more out of the witness  7 if the documents are proven than you would if you're  8 dealing with them just on the basis that you're using  9 them now on the basis that they're going to be proven  10 later or you're expecting to be proven later and I  11 think we should carry on and see how we get along.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm quite prepared to do that.  And the  13 cross-examination I have for the witness is not all  14 that extensive.  15 THE COURT:  Let's go ahead and see how we do.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  I do want to emphasize, my lord, that has got a  17 long history to it.  18 THE COURT:  I have no doubt of that.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  And the idea that my friend is taken by surprise is  20 not, with great respect, tenable.  21 THE COURT:  I'm persuaded he's taken by surprise by the fact he  22 doesn't have his documents with him here today.  To  23 that extent, I think he is genuinely taken by  24 surprise.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  On the 11th of May I said when a witness comes up  26 that I need to --  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  -- put these documents to, I'm going to be reviving  29 this motion and --  30 THE COURT:  I recall you saying that very clearly.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  I can't say anything more plainly than that.  32 However, I -- I will go on and see if I can --  33 THE COURT:  Thank you.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  — see if I can —  35 THE COURT:  At the moment, I'm merely ruling that you can use  36 these documents in the course of your  37 cross-examination without ruling whether they're  38 admissible to prove anything or not.  Some may get  39 proven during the course of cross-examination and some  40 may not.  That remains to be seen.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Right.  42 MR. RUSH:  All right.  I think that is acceptable to us.  4 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  44 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE CONTINUED:  45 Q   Mrs. Johnson, do you recall anybody prospecting for  46 and working on a mineral claim on your property, your  47 southern territory, the Kispiox, near Kispiox Valley? 976  1 A   No.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  This morning I went through a series of documents  3 and I want to show you a map, which I identify as  4 being found in a document entitled "Maps 14 to 16  5 Inclusive, Mineral, Coal and Placer Tenure", and it's  6 numbered M93M5W.  I wonder if I can --  7 THE COURT:  Good luck.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  -- persuade my friend, Mr. Macaulay, to remove  9 that.  10 MR. GRANT:  Does he have copies of the map he's putting to her  11 separate from the book?  12 MR. GOLDIE:  13 Q   I do not.  What I have got, my lord, are a couple of  14 copies of a map available in the government agent's  15 office, which is essentially the same.  The document  16 to which I'm referring the witness is the same as that  17 which was delivered on April the 14th to my friends.  18 Now, this is a somewhat unwieldy document to ask  19 you to look at, but I'm going to use this one here if  20 I may recover it from Mr. Jackson.  And I'm asking you  21 to look in the quadrant with the big C in it and at  22 the top of that, there's something called Date Creek.  23 Do you know the -- the Gitksan name for that?  24 A  What part of the country is that?  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, Date Creek's name is Xsu Wil Masxwit.  And  26 you recognize that now, don't you?  That's number 317,  2 7           my lord.  28 THE COURT:  317?  29 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  And towards the bottom of that -- I'm sorry.  I  asked you if you recognize the name Xsu Wil Masxwit.  Do you recognize that name despite my pronounciation?  I don't know your pronounciation, because sometimes  you mispronounce all --  Most of the time.  Yeah.  You say a bad word sometimes.  Well, I'm going to ask Miss Steven or -- Miss Sampson  to say to you number 317 there.  Xsu Wil Masxwit.  Now you recognize it?  Yes.  :  I detect a faint difference.  Ostensive difference.  Now -- so that is the creek?  Yeah.  Yes.  All right.  And down here is something called  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  1  36  A  37  Q  38  39  a  :  40  Q  41  A  42  MR.  GOLDIE  43  MR.  GRANT:  44  MR.  GOLDIE  45  Q  46  A  47  Q 977  1 Hazelton Creek, and do you know the -- the Indian name  2 for that?  And above it is Hazelton Peak, and do you  3 know the Indian name for that?  I'll ask that 322 be  4 pronounced.  5 A  Andamhl.  6 Q   That's the mountain which is -- below which is the  7 boundary of your territory, is it not?  8 A   Yeah.  The mountain is -- is a whole territory.  9 Q   Now, referring back to this map, I direct your  10 attention to the square which has got MO6072(3).  And  11 you may take it from me that that is a mineral claim,  12 and as far as I can see, that mineral claim is on your  13 territory.  Would you agree with that?  14 A   Do you mean this?  15 MR. GRANT:  The witness is asking if you mean the square on the  16 map.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  18 Q   Yes, I do.  I mean this little square that you have  19 your thumb on.  20 A   This is Hazelton.  21 Q   I'm sorry.  You're not aware of --  22 A   Of?  23 Q   Of that mineral claim?  24 A   No.  25 Q   No.  All right.  Do you know a Mr. Bruce Holden?  26 A  Where is he from?  27 Q   Hazelton?  2 8 A   Oh.  No.  2 9 Q   You never heard the name?  30 A   No.  31 Q   Were you aware that in 1985 he spent time up there  32 with a bulldozer and a trenching -- or digging  33 trenches in that land?  34 A   No.  35 Q   Or in 1986 that a trail was blazed on that -- on that  36 land?  37 A   No.  38 Q   You weren't aware of that?  39 A   No.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  41 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, can you tell me where Xsu Wil Masxwit  42 is?  Is it the south boundary of the property, of the  43 claimed territory?  44 MR. GRANT:  It is part of the north boundary.  45 THE COURT:  Part of the north boundary.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Would you be good enough to hand that up to  47 his lordship?  My lord, what I'm handing up is a 1  2  3  ]  4  THE  COURT:  5  MR.  GOLDIE  6  7  8  THE  COURT:  9  MR.  GOLDIE  0  1  2  3  1  4  THE  COURT:  5  MR.  GOLDIE  978  photocopy of the current claims status map in the  government agent's office, and it is the same basic  map as what is in the proposed exhibit.  Yes.  But it -- it's a little different, but not as  respect -- as respect the mineral claim Mo.  On that  your lordship would note Date Creek.  Yes.  That is, I'm instructed, Xsu Wil Masxwit, and that  is part of the boundary, the northerly boundary  starting off from the west and moving east.  And the  boundary doesn't follow that to the Kispiox.  It then  diverges and follows --  All right.  I have it.  -- follows Xsan Max Hlo'o.  16 THE COURT:  I have it.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  Otherwise known as Dale Creek.  Some humourist  18 called the first one Date and the second one Dale.  19 THE COURT:  Thank you.  I have it.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  21 Q   Now, Mrs. Johnson, we discussed trap lines and we  22 discussed Stanley Wilson's trap line and Roy Wilson's  23 trap line and Norman Weget's trap line and the vacant  24 trap line which had once been owned by Charles  25 Johnson.  Do you remember that discussion?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   All right.  Now, what I have done is traced from the  28 Exhibit 5 a portion of the external boundary.  Exhibit  29 5 is the big map which your counsel has introduced as  30 showing the external boundaries of the claims area,  31 and I have traced on that a portion of that boundary  32 and the boundaries of the trap line 06302T030 and  33 0630T021.  My lord, those are shown on Exhibit 24 and  34 were -- the latter of those two is identified by the  35 witness as being Stanley Wilson's trap line.  And  36 0630T030 was identified as being vacant in the  37 documents which were put to your -- explained to your  38 lordship this morning.  I'm going to put that in front  39 of you.  And I'm going to ask that his lordship have  40 this in front of him.  41 Now, if I may explain this to you, the solid line  42 is the external boundary taken from that map behind  43 you, which is the -- is the plaintiff's claim map.  44 The line which has got a long one and a dot and a long  45 one is the outline of your territory out near Swan  4 6 Lake.  And that too is taken from the map which your  47 counsel has prepared.  And then the dotted lines are 979  1 the trap line maps and one is 630201, which is  2 Stanley's line, and the other is the vacant line which  3 used to belong to Charles Johnson.  And I ask you if  4 you have ever had occasion to examine the degree to  5 which those two trap lines relate to your territory?  6 A   No.  All I know is late Charles Johnson got nothing to  7 do on our trap line.  The name of the creek is Xsi Wis  8 An Skit and the end of the creek is where the  9 compensation that was given to us.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I would be tendering that as an exhibit if  11 the -- if the -- because it's simply a tracing from  12 three proven exhibits.  If your lordship's ruling is  13 to stand, then consistently with that, I would tender  14 that for identification until that particular point is  15 resolved.  16 THE COURT:  Well, it's a tracing from Exhibit what?  17 MR. GOLDIE:  The exhibit numbers are from Exhibit 5 and Exhibit  18 24.  19 THE COURT:  Well, I think it could be Exhibit 5A.  It's merely a  20 tracing from exhibits that are already in.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  Perhaps Exhibit — yes.  All right.  22 THE COURT:  5A.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  All right, my lord.  24 THE COURT:  I guess this is the original, Madam Registrar.  25 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, that is identified as trap line and  27 Antgulilbix territory tracing prepared by defendant  28 Province June 8th, 1977.  I have a similar one with  29 respect to the territory --  30 MR. GRANT:  Before my friend proceeds, I just want to note for  31 the record that this should be -- I would submit that  32 this should be an exhibit for identification at this  33 stage because Exhibit 24, as I believe, was only  34 admitted for a limited purpose, and it's part of what  35 the application is about.  36 THE COURT:  It's merely a tracing from Exhibit 5 which you put  37 in, is it not?  38 MR. GRANT:  In part, and in the tracing from Exhibit 24, which  39 is the document which Mr. Goldie's application this  4 0 morning -- was one of the documents which Mr. Goldie's  41 application this morning was with respect to.  42 THE COURT:  Did the witness not identify those numbers from  43 Exhibit 5?  44 MR. GOLDIE:  She identified the numbers from yesterday.  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  From Stanley Wilson's drawing.  And she identified  47 the number 6302T021 as Stanley Wilson's trap line and 980  1 the 30, the one ending with 30 as the late Charles  2 Johnson's trap line.  3 THE COURT:  I thought Mr. —  4 MR. GRANT:  I don't believe she identified 30 as Mr. Charles  5 Johnson's.  I believe what she did is she said those  6 two numbers were on the map which was tendered the  7 Stanley Wilson map.  I believe it's Exhibit 23.  8 THE COURT:  Well, I don't think anything is going to turn on  9 this numbering system at the end of the day, but I  10 suppose to be cautious it won't do any harm to mark it  11 for identification.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  The -- I'm quite happy to do that because if your  13 lordship accepts my submission, then this will be  14 proven because it will have been simply a tracing from  15 proven documents.  16 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  And with respect to Exhibit 5, I have no  17 problem.  It's the Exhibit 24.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me.  The outline of Stanley Wilson's trap  19 line on Exhibit 24 has been proven, and the exhibit  20 was accepted for that purpose.  I believe that is  21 correct, my lord, in my submission.  22 THE COURT:  Well, I don't think it matters, gentlemen.  We'll  23 mark it as Mr. Grant requests, Exhibit 5A for  24 identification, and it'll sort itself out as they  25 always do.  2 6 MR. GRANT:  That was 5A?  27 THE COURT:  5A for identification, yes.  28 (EXHIBIT 5A FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Tracing)  29 MR. GOLDIE:  30 Q   Would you hand up another tracing to his lordship?  31 Now, this is the same sort of thing, Mrs. Johnson, but  32 in this case it's of the southern territory and from  33 the documents that we were dealing with this morning,  34 the large trap line, 630630T007, is, I believe, Mr.  35 Roy Wilson's.  That's Mr. Weget's trap line.  And then  36 below that is 0630T004, and that's the trap line of  37 Mr. Roy Wilson.  And then outlined with the -- not the  38 solid line, but the line with the long line and a dot  39 and a long line and a dot is your territory near  40 Kispiox Village.  And would you agree with me that  41 those two trap lines appear to completely take up your  42 territory down there?  43 A   No.  They are not supposed to register anything on our  44 territory.  Like I said, he owes -- Roy Wilson Sr.  45 should -- should chase the people off the Sportsman's  46 Lodge and take the house.  All they'll do is just pick  47 up their blankets and go, because the territory 981  1 belongs to him, and he got nothing to do on our  2 territory.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  I -- I won't pursue that.  I would tender that as  4 an exhibit based on the fact that it is created in  5 exactly the same way; simply depicts what is indicated  6 in the Exhibit 5 and Exhibit 24.  7 THE COURT:  I take it to be marked as Exhibit 5B for  8 identification.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  10 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I just want to note that, of course, none  11 of these numbers -- unlike Exhibit 5A, none of this  12 has been identified by the witness.  That is, the  13 numbers that are on this exhibit.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  I quite agree.  Those numbers come from the --  15 THE COURT:  From the documents.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  -- the documents themselves.  If those documents  17 are accepted, those numbers will be proven.  18 THE COURT:  All right.  That will be Exhibit 5B.  19 (EXHIBIT 5B FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Tracing)  20 THE COURT:  Do I understand, Mr. Goldie, that on that tracing  21 5BB, the black ink is the total of -- is -- the black  22 ink represents the total claimed area of this witness'  23 house in its southern portion?  24 MR. GOLDIE:  That is correct.  25 THE COURT:  The shape shows to be the — the shape it's  26 suggested it is, and what you're suggesting is that  27 this trap line, 0630T004, takes up almost all -- but  28 not entirely, but almost all of the southern --  29 southerly claimed territory?  30 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  That's what the map looked like.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  And seven takes up the balance, as I understand it.  33 THE COURT:  That's supposed to be clear to me from the tracing?  34 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  It's clearer on the exhibit.  Of course, the  35 photocopies don't show the colours, the colours that  36 they're referring to.  37 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  39 Q   Yesterday, or today -- no.  Yesterday I asked you  40 about water streams or people using the streams in  41 your territory.  Were you aware that the water for  42 Kispiox Village and the water for Glen Vowell is taken  43 from two of the streams on your territory?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And are there dams there?  46 A   Yeah.  There's a dam at Kispiox where the Xsan Max  47 Hlo'o runs from the mountain and into the Skeena -- 982  1 into -- into Kispiox River, I mean.  2 Q   And did you know that the holder of the water licence  3 is the Indian agency of the -- of the -- of the  4 Kispiox Band?  5 A   No.  6 Q   And that the one for Glen Vowell is -- the holder of  7 the water licence is the Indian agency of the Glen  8 Vowell Band?  9 A   No.  I don't know.  10 Q   But you knew that there was water --  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   -- being taken from those creeks?  13 A   Yes.  Yes.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Thank you.  I wonder if my friend has  15 the original of the Jonathan Johnson map that I asked  16 to be produced.  This is the map which I spoke of at  17 the beginning of my cross-examination, and I believe  18 my friend was -- didn't have it with him the day that  19 I asked.  20 MR. GRANT:  No, I didn't.  I don't have it here, but I could  21 arrange for it at the break.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I have the copy that was given to me and I  23 wonder if my friend would agree that this is a true  24 copy of the Jonathan Johnson map which was produced as  25 a result of Mr. Sterrit's examination for discovery.  26 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  That is a copy if my friend wishes to tender  27 it.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  2 9 Q   All right.  Thank you.  30 I wonder, Mrs. Johnson, if you would be  31 sufficiently patient with me to look at another map.  32 This was produced by Mr. Grant as Jonathan Johnson's  33 map, or a copy of it.  Have you ever seen that?  34 A   No.  35 Q   No.  All right.  Well, we won't bother tendering that.  36 I asked you yesterday about Mr. Stewart Forsythe, and  37 I was asking you if you were aware of whether he was  38 logging in your territory, and I think you told me,  39 no, you weren't?  4 0 A   He's farming.  41 Q   He's farming?  42 A   Yeah.  He's a farmer.  43 Q   I see.  44 A  And he sells meat.  45 Q   Have you ever seen his signature?  4 6 A   No.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I'd like to tender as an exhibit the 983  1 affidavit signed by Mary Johnson after I have her  2 identify it, to which is attached the question and  3 answer to two questions relating to the maps which  4 have been marked as exhibits and which were attached  5 to those affidavits.  Those are Exhibits 19, which is  6 the south property, and Exhibit 21, the north.  If I  7 may ask Mrs. Johnson if you identify that as your  8 signature.  9 MR. GRANT:  My lord, before my friend proceeds, I just -- I  10 understood yesterday that the cross-examination which  11 was left outstanding was with respect to the  12 alienation maps.  We have dealt with the question of  13 the interrogatories and I just wonder if my friend is  14 going to canvass many other areas with respect to  15 beyond the areas of the maps, which was my  16 understanding of what he expressly said yesterday.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  I've concluded, my lord, but I do want to file as  18 an exhibit the -- the affidavit verifying the  19 production of those maps.  20 THE COURT:  I'm not sure that I have a full understanding of the  21 issue that seems to have arisen.  You have concluded  22 your cross-examination on the maps, Mr. Goldie?  23 MR. GOLDIE:  I've concluded as far as I propose going at this  24 time and for any time with this witness --  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  -- on the documents that we discussed this morning.  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant is suggesting that your cross-examination  29 was kept only for that purpose.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  Generally speaking, that is correct.  And I --  31 THE COURT:  You're seeking leave then to ask to put this further  32 document to the witness?  33 MR. GOLDIE:  That is correct.  34 THE COURT:  All right.  Is there any reason why I shouldn't  allow that, Mr. Grant?  Well, given that he said that this is -- if he is  concluding, that's fine.  I just wondered how broad he  was going to go.  Go ahead, Mr. Goldie.  35  36  MR.  GRANT:  37  38  39  THE  COURT:  40  MR.  GOLDIE  41  Q  42  A  43  MR.  GOLDIE  44  Are you able to identify your signature?  Yes.  I tender that as an exhibit, my lord.  It is a copy  of the exhibit.  45 THE COURT:  Does it have maps attached to it?  46 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  Those — the maps are Exhibits 19 and 21.  47 THE COURT:  What is it?  Let me see the affidavit, please, Madam 984  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  GOLDI  COURT  GOLDI  COURT  GRANT  9  10 MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16 MR. GOLDI  17  18  19 MR. GRANT  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  2 7 THE COURT  28  29  30  31  32 MR. GRANT  33 THE COURT  34  35  36  37 MR. GRANT  38  39  40  41 THE COURT  42  4 3 MR. GOLDI  44  45  46  47  Registrar.  :  The maps -- you say the maps that are attached to  this affidavit of Schedule B are Exhibits --  E:  19 and 21.  :  19 and 21.  E:  I think they were 3 and 4 on her examination for  discovery.  :  All right.  Then this affidavit will be -- any  objection, Mr. Grant?  :  Well, yes.  The affidavit which my friend has put to  the witness is an affidavit dated the 26th of January.  It should be '87.  It says '86.  It's my understanding  that the maps were tendered with an affidavit of the  witness which was sworn on July 7th, 1986.  And in  fact, those maps were not filed with this affidavit.  E:  Well, I think they stated as already been  delivered.  I think if my friend wishes me, I'll file  the affidavit of 1986 also as a part of this.  :  I'm only saying if my friend wishes that the -- if  my friend intends to file an affidavit upon which the  maps are attached, this is not the correct affidavit  which the maps were attached to, although they were  referred to there and the maps were attached to the  earlier affidavit.  That's the only point I'm making,  my lord, so that my friend was mistaken in his  understanding, I guess, of the matter.  :  Well, this says, "What are the boundaries of your  house's territory?"  I take the answer is "See maps  which are attached as Schedule B".  Do you say that  means see maps that are attached as Schedule B to some  other affidavit?  :  That's correct.  :  I would have read that these maps were attached to  Schedule B of this affidavit.  If you say that isn't  so, if your friend says, well, I'll file the other  affidavit as well, is there any problem?  :  There's no problem.  I'm saying that there's -- I'm  not -- I don't know what my friends intend to do  ultimately with this and I want it to be correct,  that's all.  :  All right.  Mr. Goldie, can I ask you to solve the  problem by filing the other affidavit as well?  E:  Yes.  What happened, my lord, is that there was an  earlier response to an interrogatory and it was later  required to be in March by an order of Mr. Justice  Locke.  It was done by filing a fresh affidavit.  And  as the affidavit stated, the Schedule B had already 985  1 been delivered and I'll --  2 THE COURT:  Well, let's put the two affidavits together as the  3 next exhibit then.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  That will be exhibit 28, is it, my lord?  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  I think so.  6 (EXHIBIT 28:  Two affidavits of Mary Johnson)  7 THE COURT:  All right.  Then you're finished then, Mr. Goldie?  8 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I am.  9 THE COURT:  All right.  Are you ready to re-examine then, Mr.  10 Grant?  11 MR. GRANT:  I assume that we may take a break.  I'd like to have  12 a break to discuss --  13 THE COURT:  All right.  Has the other affidavit been tendered?  14 THE REGISTRAR:  No, it hasn't.  15 THE COURT:  All right.  When it's tendered then, the two can be  16 put together and marked as Exhibit 28.  And we'll take  17 the afternoon break.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in Court.  19  2 0 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  21  22  23  24  25  26 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  27 a true and accurate transcript of the  28 proceedings herein to the best of my  29 skill and ability.  30  31  32  33 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  34 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 986  MR.  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15 THE  16 MR.  17 MR.  18 THE  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45 THE  GOLDIE: My Lord, I have handed to the registrar a copy of  the affidavits that Mr. Grant requested and the copy  of -- a clean copy of Exhibit 23.  COURT:  Thank you.  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Grant.  GRANT:  Yes.  Before proceeding with redirect, My Lord,  there is one matter that I left unsettled on the  direct and that is with respect to Exhibit 17, which  is the document book, and I would ask that that  document which was marked as an exhibit for  identification be introduced as an exhibit proper.  Mrs. Johnson identified all of the documents which  were located in that document she referred to and  identified them all.  COURT:  Any difficulty with that, Mr. Goldie, Mr. Macaulay  MACAULAY: No.  GOLDIE: No.  COURT:  Yes.  All right, that will be Exhibit 17 not for  identification, then.  (EXHIBIT 17:  DOCUMENT BOOK)  9  RE-EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Mrs. Johnson, you were asked by Mr. Goldie, a week ago  on the Friday, if children on the reserve attend  school elsewhere on the reserve, and you answered yes.  Do children from Kispiox reserve attend school within  Kispiox?  A   Yes.  Q   Do non-Indian children living outside of the reserve  attend the school in Kispiox?  A   Yes.  Q   You referred to Robert Wilson, Jonathon Johnson,  George Wilson and Art Wilson in one of your answers.  Did all of these people hold one name at different  times?  A   Yes.  Q   What name was that?  A  Wii'mogulsxw.  That's Robert Wilson's name.  And then  when he died, Jonathon Johnson took over.  After  Jonathon died, then late George Wilson; and when  George died, then Art Wilson took the name, the chief  name.  COURT:  The name again please?  46 MR. GRANT:   Wii'mogulsxw.  47 THE TRANSLATOR: Number 78. 987  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2  MR.  GRANT  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  MR.  GOLDI  29  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  37  38  39  40  THE  COURT  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  45  46  47  You described today -- you were questioned this  afternoon by Mr. Macaulay about the Heavener Ranch,  and you were asked whether it was close to or on your  grandfather's territory, and he was Ma'uus, Daniel  Gawa was?  Yes.  And in part of your answer you described that next to  Wil Masxwit is my grandfather's territory, and you  were referring, I believe, to Daniel Gawa?  Yeah, that's the boundary.  As Stanley is not here --  he should know where the boundary is.  That's where  Roy senior got every right to be on Ma'uus's very  large territory.  And there was some mountains behind  it.  What House is Roy Wilson senior in?  He is from Ma'uus's House.  Now, a week ago Friday, when Mr. Goldie was  questioning you, you answered questions about the  boundary of your territory near Kispiox.  You recall  that?  Yes.  Now -- and you described that you had a discussion  with Mr. Sterritt.  Before you talked to Mr. Sterritt,  did you know that Ma'uus's territory was next to Wil  Masxwit?  E:  How does that arise out of my cross-examination?  That refers back to my friend's examination-in-chief  where he dealt with -- it was he who introduced the  discussion of Mr. Sterritt in his examination in  chief.  :  That is true, Mr. Grant.  :  But this arises out of not Mr. Goldie's questioning  but Mr. Macaulay's questioning because the witness  this afternoon gave an answer that Ma'uus's territory  was next to Wil Masxwit, and my question is whether  she knew that before she had the discussion with Mr.  Sterritt.  :  Well, wasn't the question of boundaries fully  covered?  Surely it was part of your burden in chief.  :  I'm not talking about the boundaries here, I am  talking about -- there was some suggestion in  cross-examination as to whether this area was new, and  what she said today, in answer to Mr. Macaulay's  question relating to the Heavener Ranch, was that  Ma'uus had a territory on -- next to Wil Masxwit, and 1  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  MR.  MACAU  20  21  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  THE  COURT  39  40  41  42  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  Q  46  47  A  I just want to know whether that answer was an answer  she -- whether that was based on what Mr. Sterritt  told her or based on what she knew previously.  That  is where this question is arising out of.  I don't know what Wil Masxwit is.  Wil Masxwit is on Exhibit 17-9-A.  Is that -- we are talking about a stream?  Xsu Wil Masxwit is a stream.  I know what you mean now.  It's the one that yesterday morning you were having  some --  Oh, I'm having a terrible time.  Any potential for  judicial understanding has been sacrificed with these  names.  They just have gotten me completely lost, and  I don't think I will ever straighten them out, but I  will do the best I can, but it really is terribly  discouraging to be constantly uncertain of what  counsel are talking about.  AY: I asked no questions along these lines at all, My  Lord.  None of my questions were directed to Wil  Masxwit or whether anybody's boundary bordered on  that.  Mr. Macaulay, of course, asked about whether the  Heavener territory was on the Ma'uus' territory.  Yes.  Well, I don't see any harm in allowing you to  proceed, Mr. Grant.  I don't think it's proper  re-examination, but I can't imagine any prejudice to  anyone.  I am happy to have the record as clear as you  can make it.  I am going to allow you to proceed.  We  have the time and I see no harm in it, but I think we  can't run part of the trial as if it was a criminal  trial and then have unlimited re-examination either  now or when your friends come on.  There has to be  some control of this.  But you go ahead, Mr. Grant.  I  see no harm in this, and perhaps some enlightenment  will arise.  Okay.  But counsel have to understand they have been living  with these names and working with them, and this is  all brand new to me and I'm, frankly, lost.  I don't  mind telling counsel I am lost.  It's the names that  are doing it to me.  I am struggling with it but I  warn you, that it's hardly understandable.  Go ahead.  Thank you. I'll go back to my question.  Mrs. Johnson, Mr. Macaulay this afternoon asked you if  you knew where Mr. Heavener's Ranch was?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  989  And you referred to it as being on your grandfather's  territory?  Yeah.  And you were talking then about Daniel Gawa, who is  Ma'uus?  Yeah.  He questioned you further as to whether it was next to  his territory or on his territory?  Yeah.  And then in answer to that you said that your  grandfather's territory was next to Wil Masxwit?  Yeah.  It's so plain, sir, this Wil Masxwit.  The  mountain is called Wil Masxwit.  That's where our  ancestors got the mountain goat, main food, and  groundhogs that they used the skin for the Feasts, and  this Wil Masxwit and Xsu Wil Masxwit comes from Wil  Masxwit and runs into Kispiox River.  So they call  this Xsu Wil Masxwit-Antgulilbix's Genim jap.  That  means that Antgulilbix' hunting ground in the ancient  time.  So next to Xsu Wil Masxwit is Ma'uus's  boundary.  So Stanley is not here, Tsibasaa, he knows  where the boundary is, and Roy senior should know  where the boundray is, and he shouldn't come into our  territory and register it where there is enough of his  own next to it.  And then Ma'uus and then Kliiyem lax  haa, you see the bridge where the 17 Mile Bridge is  called Ant'ki ge'n.  I know the history about that,  and that's the boundary between Ma'uus and Kliiyem lax  haa.  And that 17 Mile Bridge is in the Kispiox valley?  Yes.  My question to you is this, Mrs. Johnson.  Before you  talked to Mr. Sterritt, did you know that Ma'uus --  where Ma'uus's territory was?  Yeah.  Now, you have just described it.  Did you know that  before you talked to Mr. Sterritt?  They call his territory Tarn k'aldix seeksit because --  I just want to make sure the Reporter has it.  Tarn k'aldix seeksit.  And when he goes out to hunt, he  went up and always had the road past the Heaveners  Ranch.  That's where he goes up and caught many furs.  And across the -- where his house burnt down is the  Sportsman's Lodge, and they call that place Xsa'an  gehlaast.  That's the name of the creek that runs into  Kispiox River.  Okay.  Now, before you proceed further, my question to 1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  990  you is, did you know that Ma'uus -- where Ma'uus's  territory was before you spoke to Mr. Sterritt about  the map?  Yes.  Ever since I was small.  Thank you.  Now, you were asked by Mr. Goldie, I  believe, about logging on Andamhl?  Yes.  And on Exhibit 17-9-A Andamhl is written a long --  it's a long line.  Mr. Goldie marked it with a circle  and a small point.  Can you tell the Court, is Andamhl  a sharp peak?  When you are talking about Andamhl, are  you talking about a sharp peak or a long mountain?  It's a mountain and there is another sharp peak behind  it, just on the same mountain, but it's sharp peak and  that's what we call Andamhl.  My ancestor called it  Andamhl, as far as I could remember, and the white  people call it where the moon shines on.  When you have been talking about Andamhl in your  evidence, are you talking about this sharp peak or are  you talking about the -- what you have called the  mountain in front of it?  Not in front of it, it's the same mountain that we  call Andamhl.  It's all one mountain?  One mountain, yes.  When Mr. Goldie was asking you questions about your  territory, and he was -- this was a week ago Friday,  he was asking you on many occasions about this creek,  Xsan Max Hlo'o, 320 on the list, you kept referring to  the man that lived on the mountain, the man who was  mean?  Yes.  Now -- and you talked about the clearing where this  man -- the clearing below where this man lived, I  believe.  And this is page 850 of the transcript?  That's where he lives, on the clearing.  Okay.  My question to you is:  How did you know where  the mean man on the mountain lived?  Because great-great grandmother tells me and my  grandmother tells me that's where Gyadim Lax ts'inaast  live.  It means the man that lives on the clearing,  and he's mean.  And was that part of the -- an adaawk?  Yes, it's an adaawk.  And he's so mean and ugly, so  they made a mask out of him, and it's in our House,  both House of Antgulilbix and Tsibasaa.  Every tribe  got a mask and they also named the mask. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  2 7 MR.  GOL]  2 8 MR.  GRA1  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  991  In answer to a question from Mr. Macaulay you referred  to one of your -- I believe it's one of your fishing  sites, Antselda.  Is that upstream of Kispiox or  downstream, that site?  Where is that?  I am referring to, I think it was Antselda?  Antselda, yeah, we call it the mountain, Gaakhl An  tselda, where the trail goes around.  That fishing site, is it upstream of Kispiox?  Is it  going up the river?  Yes, up the river, and it's on Skeena River.  Now, when you talked about that, you referred to a  place known as 4 Mile?  Yeah.  When you referred to 4 Mile, is that a place that is  up the Kispiox valley?  Up the Kispiox valley.  Then you were asked about another map and about a  bridge this afternoon or late this morning?  Yeah.  And you referred to it as 4 Mile Canyon.  Is that --  that is a different place than 4 Mile, where Antselda  is?  Yes, it's different.  You were referred to by Mr. Goldie, a map, provided by  your brother, Stanley -- Exhibit 21 please.  And --  3:  23, I think it is.  :  23.  Exhibit 23.  And this map was referred to you as a map that your  brother had given -- provided through counsel to Mr.  Goldie?  Yes.  Now -- and you were referred to earlier in your -- a  map which your brother had, Stanley had, which was  made by George Williams?  Yes.  Now, George Williams, you have indicated, died around  1943; is that right?  Yes.  Now, did George Williams ever describe the northern  territory to you, that is the northern territory of  Antgulilbix, Tsibasaa?  Yeah, yeah.  When he described that territory, did he include Xsi  Wis An Skit as part of that territory?  Yes.  Did he include Xsi Lapsit as part of that territory? 992  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25 THE  2 6 MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32 MR.  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41 THE  42 MR.  43 THE  44  45  4 6 MR.  47  A   Yes, Xsi Lapsit, yes, a small creek that runs into Xsi  Wis An Skit.  Q   Did he ever tell you that --  COURT:  Well, Mr. Grant, these are terribly leading  questions.  GRANT: I'm sorry.  Q   Now, do you know if Xsi Wis An Skit was ever excluded  from your territory by Mr. Williams?  A   No.  Q   Xsi Lapsit, do you know if it was ever excluded from  your territory by Mr. Williams?  A   No.  Q   I would ask you to look for a moment at this map,  Exhibit 23.  And you were asked about these numbers on  it, and there is this 063OT021?  A   Yes.  Q   And 06302030?  A   Yes.  Q   And 65 and 68.  Those are examples of some of the  numbers?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know what those numbers mean?  A   No.  Q   Okay.  COURT:  That's Exhibit 23?  GRANT:  23, yes.  I'm losing an Exhibit, My Lord.  Q   You were shown this map by Mr. Goldie, I believe,  yesterday, if I recall rightly.  How long before you  have seen this map in court have you seen this map,  Exhibit 23?  A   That's the first time I have seen it.  GOLDIE:  My Lord, that, if I may say so, is extraordinary  because the witness referred to a map on her  examination for discovery and it was asked that be  produced, and this is what was produced; and it was  referred to on a number of occasions by the witness on  her examination for discovery.  Now we are told that  this is the first time she has seen it.  I therefore  renew my request for the map referred to by the  witness on her examination for discovery.  WITNESS:  Excuse me, Mr. Grant.  GRANT:   Uh-huh.  WITNESS:  I forget you -- we see the map, I and Stanley,  before -- maybe it's before the court case, after they  work Gyolugyet.  GRANT:  Q   You mean when the court case had started but before 993  1  2  A  3  4  5  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  GRANT  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GOLDI  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  THE  COURT  31  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Q  you gave evidence?  Yes, yes.  And Stanley took out the copy from the  Fishery Department because we wanted the map that  Uncle George Williams' handwriting when he made out  the map when he registered the hunting ground.  Well, was it produced on discovery?  No.  All right.  No, this map, Exhibit 23, was a map that was  produced to counsel and had been produced to me.  :  All right.  E: It was produced after the discovery as a result of  the request.  As a result of the request, that's right.  All right.  I note my friends request, and I am going to renew  my investigation on it.  Mr. Goldie asked you whether Stanley Wilson's  registered trap line was the same as the boundary of  your House territory, and you said it was?  Yeah.  Has Stanley -- do you know if Stanley has trapped  outside of your territory?  No.  I'm sorry, I made a classic error in my question.  Has  Stanley trapped outside of your territory?  Do you mean on the territory way up north?  Yes.  No, because he knows the boundary.  :  The way I have it is that Stanley Wilson hasn't  trapped outside the northern territory.  :  Of the witness's House.  That's the northern territory of your House, and you  said he knows the -- I just didn't get what you said.  He knows the territory, is that what you said?  Yeah, he knows the boundary, I said.  Okay.  You were asked by Mr. Goldie whether Charles  Johnson had a right to trap on your territory, and I  believe you said no.  Do you know if Charles Johnson  ever did trap on your territory?  No, because he is from the House of Dawamuxw and  K'alii sgalan, and all his life he lives on Lax  dit'ax.  That's another very large territory.  He got  his own trap line there.  We live with them once and I  have seen it.  I wish you to refer to Exhibit 23 as part of the 994  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  MR.  GOLDI  36  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GRANT  45  Q  46  47  application for trap line.  Now, you were referred to  the second part of Exhibit 25, which was a listing of  people in your House.  I'll just read them to you --  or I should say a list of people, I apologize.  My  question is -- it refers to Stanley Wilson, Leonard  Gawa, Wilfred Gawa, Gordon Johnson, Mary Johnson,  Alfred Latz, L-a-t-z, Arnold Tait and Donald Tait.  Are those persons in your House?  Yes.  Are any of them not in your House?  No, they are all in the same House.  You gave evidence -- you were asked questions about  Chris Harris and you said that you knew Chris Harris  and that he attended Feasts?  Yes.  You also said that he was sick?  Yeah.  Do you recall how long Chris Harris was sick before he  died?  No.  Do you not remember if Chris -- did Chris Harris  attend Feasts while he was sick?  No.  Did Chris Harris attend a Feast hosted by your House  at which the adaawk of your House was told?  No.  Mr. Goldie asked you about a road through your  territory, if you knew there was a road through your  territory, and I believe my recollection of your  evidence was that you said there was and this was the  road between Hazelton and Kispiox?  Yes.  Was that road between Hazelton and Kispiox used by the  Gitksan before it was a road?  E:  Well, she said the road was there before she was  born, and I accepted that answer.  I don't see how my  friend can go behind that.  Do you know, from what your grandmother told you,  whether that road was there before the white man came?  :  I object to that.  I haven't objected to questions  which suggest answers but that's an obvious one.  :  It's very leading, Mr. Grant.  Let me ask you this.  Can you tell the Court, from  your knowledge and what your grandmother told you, how  long the road has been there or the trail has been 995  1 there?  2 A   The trail has been there when my ancestor live at Wilt  3 gallii bax.  That's below the mountain, what we call  4 Andamhl, and there is an ancient village there.  So  5 after that the chief of Kispiox ask Antgulilbix,  6 Tsibasaa to move into Kispiox.  7 Q   And you have told us about that?  8 A   Yeah.  And there is a road there, but they kept on  9 using the territory as their hunting grounds, and I  10 didn't see when the Glen Vowell folks moved to Glen  11 Vowell.  They were from Kispiox.  12 Q   Did chiefs of Kispiox block that road at any time?  13 MR. GOLDIE:  Well —  14 THE COURT:  That doesn't arise out of any questions, does it?  15 MR. GRANT:  My friend has raised the whole question of a road  16 going through her territory.  17 THE COURT:  Oh, I know, Mr. Grant, but there has to be some  18 limit to re-examination, and this seems to me is  19 raising a whole new area of investigation, if we get  20 into it.  21 MR. GRANT:  Well —  22 THE COURT:  Surely, if you want that evidence, you can get it  23 from another witness, so we don't have this kind of  24 problem.  25 MR. GRANT:  Certainly, My Lord.  26 THE COURT:  Re-examination always causes far more difficulty  27 than anything else.  There is always a problem with  28 re-examination that can be avoided, I think.  2 9 MR. GRANT:  30 Q   Mr. Macaulay put a document to you entitled Petition  31 of Right, Exhibit 26, and I would like to refer you to  32 part of this document.  33 First of all I would refer you to paragraph 82 of  34 that document, and I will only refer to it -- I will  35 edit out what I've said.  It says -- just to the  36 relevant parts -- "your petitioners", and then it  37 lists a number of them, including Tsibasaa and Yal,  38 "are hereditary chiefs of village of Kispiox".  Are  39 Tsibasaa and Yal hereditary chiefs of the village of  40 Kispiox?  41 A   Yeah.  42 Q   I refer you to paragraph 84 on the same page.  And  43 there I only ask these questions with respect to  44 Tsibasaa and Yal, who are referred to with others as  45 Kispiox chiefs, and it says there:  "Kispiox chiefs  46 and their ancestors have been living on these said  47 lands and fishing at these said traditional fishing 996  MR.  9 MR. GRANT  10  11  12 MR.  13  14 MR.  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18  19  2 0 THE  21  22 MR.  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  2 6 THE  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42 MR.  43  44  45  46  47  sites included in these lands since time in memorial  and have used their specific hereditary Kispiox  fishing sites since time in memorial."  Is that true  with respect Tsibasaa and Yal?  A   Yes.  MACAULAY: My Lord, I object to that line of examination.  There was no cross-examination on any of those  allegations, and that's all they are.  This document was put in by Mr. Macaulay and wasn't  even introduced on direct, and he introduced the  document as an exhibit and put it to the witness.  MACAULAY: I put two paragraphs of the document to the  witness.  There are over a hundred.  I don't intend to go over a hundred.  I am dealing  with two or three paragraphs.  Well, is this the witness to ask that question?  These allegations are made and extensive  cross-examination was led of this witness with respect  to the fishing sites.  Well, she has indicated, and I don't know that  he's -- is Tsibasaa going to be a witness?  Yes.  Wouldn't he be the person to ask that question?  Well, he can be asked that question as well, but  these are --  You are asking this witness if these other people  have -- if this statement is accurate for these other  people.  Isn't it better to ask the other people when  they get to the witness box?  I suppose I have a  problem that I have to resolve arising out of Mr.  Macaulay's objection, if you press the point, but do  you have to press it with this witness?  We don't have  to win every point in a lawsuit to --  GRANT:  I agree, My Lord, but this document was put in by  Mr. Macaulay and certain aspects of it were put to  this witness.  Now that he has put it in, I submit  that it -- that it's proper -- it's allowable for me  on redirect to say -- to ask the witness questions  about that document, which was not put to her on  direct and was something new that arose out of his  cross-examination.  MACAULAY:  This is part of the plaintiff's case.  Mr. Grant  could have put any of those questions to her in chief.  He didn't.  Not in so many words.  The issue wasn't  raised with the witness on cross examination, and I  submit it's not properly within the scope of  re-examination.  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT: 997  1  THE  COURT  2  3  4  5  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  MR.  GOLDI  25  MR.  GRANT  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Well, isn't it the burden of this witness's  evidence, Mr. Grant, that the House she represents has  lived in these lands within the area shown on the maps  from time in memorial, lived or occupied on or used  them as their fishing sites and that sort of thing?  Isn't that her evidence in chief?  I'm not going to pursue it.  Aren't you asking exactly the same question again?  Well, I am asking her about certain allegations in  this document, but yes, they lead to the same point,  and I'm not going to press it.  Given the time, I  think I will go directly through this.  When Mr. Macaulay referred you to the O'Reilly Indian  Reserve Commission -- do you know what the O'Reilly  Indian Reserve Commission was?  Do you mean when they surveyed the reserve?  Well, that's what I am asking you.  Do you know or did  did your grandmother tell you about a man named  O'Reilly that came to Kispiox?  Yeah.  Okay.  You referred, and I can't recall who provided  the name, yourself or Mr. Goldie, but to Louis Wesley?  What House was --  E:  The witness did.  : That's what I thought.  What House is Louis Wesley from?  From the House of Xsim gaakhl.  I showed you the great  big Feast House, a log house on the picture the other  day.  Right.  And they are related with Wii elaast's House.  They  got their own House, so Louis was his chief name, is  Ama gyet.  I just wish to refer you to -- and I don't have to --  I'm just going to make reference to Exhibit 26-A.  Mr.  Macaulay asked you questions about a small island in  the river, and I believe it was -- you referred to the  fishing sites, which is number 329, An Guux Di Git  wank.  It's number 329 on the territory names.  Is An  Guux Di Git wank, is it across from fishing -- well,  is it near fishing sites of Gwiiyeehl?  Gwiiyeehl.  Yes.  No, An Guux Di Git wank is not far from Wilt gallii  bax.  You could see from, as we stand on the road.  Yeah.  And the island he showed me is T'a'ootsip, like  I told them before.  That's another fishing site. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  998  You were asked about Yal's fishing sites at 4 Mile  Canyon?  Yeah.  And whether they were on the north side or the south  side?  South side of the bridge.  Okay.  What I would like you to describe for the Court  is if you are driving to Kispiox from Hazelton, are  they on the Hazelton side of the river or the Kispiox  side of the river?  On the Hazelton side.  Okay.  If you're driving across that bridge towards  Kispiox, would you look to your right-hand side or  your left-hand side to those fishing sites?  You can see it as you cross the bridge.  But what I am asking is would it be to your right -- I  understand you can't see the site -- would it be to  your right or to your left, if you're facing Kispiox  on the bridge?  If you cross the bridge going to Hazelton and it's on  your left side, that's where I see the Yal's Smoke  House.  You were asked about fishing in the summer and  going -- and going to the coast in the summertime, and  you have said you went every summer when you were  younger?  Yeah.  To the coast.  When you went to the coast every  summer, did anyone from your House fish at the fishing  sites on the Kispiox River?  Yeah, that's what they do.  One of my aunties, while  she's still alive, she fish at An Guux Di Git wank.  Her name is Kate Hakst.  That's Sarah Doll's sister.  She is the last one to live there.  You described Daniel Gawa, your grandfather, as having  a Smoke House.  This is an answer, I believe, to Mr.  Macaulay's answer, this side of the bridge?  Yeah.  And then you said in further answer, you said his  family still fishes on his fishing site?  Yeah, that's -- I mean his relatives are fishing  there.  Okay.  My question to you is when you say his family  or his relatives, who are you referring to?  I mean his family crest.  The people in his House?  Yeah, the people from Ma'uus's House, like Geoffrey 999  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  Harris Junior.  COURT:  Mr. Grant, are you going to be long?  WITNESS:   He used to fish there.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 THE  41  42  43  44 THE  45 THE  4 6 THE  47  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  I have about two or three questions.  I promised the Reporters we wouldn't sit longer  hours.  No, I have two or three questions.  All right.  I think Madam Reporter doesn't mind.  You described, in answer to questions from Mr.  Macaulay -- my note this morning that this was with  respect to one of the funerals.  You said "I paid for  merchandise and furniture, I gave my new set of  furniture to Mrs. Kate Sterritt because she paid for  the casket"?  A   Yes.  Q   Why did Mrs. Sterritt pay for the casket?  A   Because our custom is when a baby is born, the brother  would fix a cradle for the newborn baby, and when the  baby had a Feast among the village and get a name,  then they pay gifts to the brother that fixed the new  cradle.  So as an example, I am old, any time I go and  my Dad's relatives would buy a nice casket for me,  that will be my last cradle.  That's why it is still  among our people today.  They still carry the custom  in the ancient time.  Q   Is that what Kate Sterritt was doing?  A   Yes, that's what she does because she is related to my  husband's dad from the House of Wii elaast.  Even  though the family would pay back the amount of the  casket, and on top of that they gave gifts.  Q   Did you give -- in what circumstance -- where were you  when you gave her this furniture?  A   I mention it at the Feast Hall, after my husband's  family paid back the casket.  I just mentioned the  furniture and they picked it up  later on.  GRANT:  Thank you, Mrs. Johnson, I have no further  questions.  COURT:  Thank you.  I just have two questions, Mrs. Johnson.  When you told me some weeks ago that you got  divorced, did you mean divorced in accordance with  Indian custom or British Columbia law or both?  WITNESS:   Both.  COURT:  Both.  WITNESS:  I divorced in our Indian law and I was divorced by  the — 1000  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Now, you told me that a number of  2 people, you mentioned Yal and somebody called White  3 and others, owning fishing sites?  4 THE WITNESS:   Yeah.  5 THE COURT:   How is it that they own them, apart from the House?  6 Where do they come to own these fishing sites?  I took  7 it you were telling me that they owned them  8 individually, not as a member of a House.  Have I got  9 that wrong?  10 THE WITNESS:   Do you mean about the fishing sites?  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  12 THE WITNESS:  Yeah, we got a lot of fishing sites, the Giskaast  13 tribe.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  But you told me, for example, that Yal owns  15 fishing sites and you mentioned others.  16 THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  That's how there are different chiefs live  17 on different fishing sites with the rest of the  18 family.  Each chief is supposed to look after one  19 fishing site.  That's how it is.  20 THE COURT:  But does -- you told me that Yal owns a fishing site  21 in 4 Mile Canyon?  22 THE WITNESS:   Yeah.  23 THE COURT:  That's his private property, is it?  24 THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  25 THE COURT:  Doesn't belong to the House?  26 THE WITNESS:  It belongs to the House because Yal lives in  27 Hazelton; and I was told, too, that we got a Feast  28 House in Hazelton in the ancient time, and also Yal  29 get territory somewhere near Hazelton.  30 THE COURT:  Which House does Yal belong to?  31 THE WITNESS:  He belongs to both Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix.  32 THE COURT:  All right.  So he doesn't own these fishing sites  33 himself?  34 THE WITNESS:  He owns it himself.  That's how it is.  He looks  35 after it, and anyone that got his name will take over  36 the fishing site and hunting ground where he goes.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  I am not sure if you're telling me that he  38 owned the fishing site himself or if he owns it for  39 the House.  40 THE WITNESS:  He owns it.  He took care of it for the House.  41 THE COURT:  All right.  Lastly, where is the Sportsman's Lodge?  42 THE WITNESS:  It's accross the — Ma'uus's territory.  It's part  43 of Ma'uus' territory, but it is only -- the Kispiox  44 River runs between it, between the territory.  That's  45 why -- that's where the Sportsman's Lodge is, and --  46 THE COURT:  Well, is it across the Kispiox River from —  47 THE WITNESS:   Yes, yes, just close to the highway.  Right on 1001  1 the main highway.  2 THE COURT:  Well, could the witness be shown 17-9-A.  Do you see  3 Kispiox on that map, the village?  4 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  5 THE COURT:  Where is the Sportsman's Lodge that you mentioned?  6 THE WITNESS:   It's this side, this 17 Mile Bridge where  7 Sportsman's Lodge is.  Just right across Ma'uus's  8 territory.  9 THE COURT:  Well, does Ma'uus's territory cross the Kispiox  10 River?  11 THE WITNESS:   Yes, it goes across the the Kispiox River.  12 That's the reason why the Sportsman's Lodge stands on  13 Ma'uus's territory.  14 THE COURT:  Well, this map would suggest that the land between  15 the two rivers belongs to someone else.  I can't  16 even --  17 MR. GRANT:  Kliiyem lax haa.  18 THE COURT:  Is that not so?  19 THE WITNESS:  Oh, it's the other way, Your Highness,  20 THE COURT:  It's on the same side of the Kispiox River?  21 THE WITNESS:   There is a bridge that we call An kya ge'in  22 Bridge, where the 17 Mile is, so Ma'uus and Kliiyem  23 lax haa's territory is An kya ge'in.  24 THE COURT:   It's on the same side of the Kispiox as Ma'uus's  25 property?  26 THE WITNESS:   As you go up north, it will be on your right side  27 after you cross the bridge is Kliiyem lax haa's  28 territory.  29 THE COURT:  Just a minute.  Is the Sportsman's Lodge on the same  30 side of the Kispiox River as Ma'uus's properties?  31 THE WITNESS:   It's across it.  Kispiox River runs —  32 THE COURT:  It's accross the Kispiox River?  33 THE WITNESS:   Yeah, yeah.  34 THE COURT:  But not on Kliiyem lax haa's property?  35 THE WITNESS:   No, no.  36 THE COURT:  How far from Kispiox, the village?  37 THE WITNESS:  It's not far.  I mean, there is the bridge and the  38 bridge is -- still call it 17 Miles, and not very far  39 from the bridge is Sportsman's Lodge.  4 0 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you, Mrs. Johnson.  41 Thank you Madam Reporter.  We'll adjourn then 'til  42 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.  43  4 4        (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  45  46  47 1002  1  2 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  3 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  4 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  5 SKILL AND ABILITY.  6  7  8 LORI OXLEY  9 OFFICIAL REPORTER  10 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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