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[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-06-17] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 17, 1987

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 135?  Smithers, B.C.  17 June 1987  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 10:00 A.M.)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia, this 17th day of June, 1987.  Delgamuukw  and others and Her Majesty the Queen.  COURT:  Mr. Plant?  PLANT:  Yes, my lord.  REGISTRAR:  Witness, I  9 THE  10 MR.  11 THE  12  13  14  15 CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. PLANT  remind you you are still under oath.  OLIVE RYAN, Previously Sworn:  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  3 9 MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT:  40  41  42  43  4 4 THE COURT:  45  4 6 MR. GRANT:  Mrs. Ryan, I asked you some questions yesterday  about the members of your family and I forgot to ask  you about your son Don.  You have a son named Don  Ryan; don't you?  Yes.  And he is the executive director of the Gitksan  Wet'suwet'en tribal council; isn't he?  Yes.  Now, yesterday I was also asking you some questions  about the Carnaby territory of Hanamuxw?  Yes.  And that has a name Gasilaatxwit.  Is that the name?  Gasilaatxwit.  Is it -- and that, I understand, is one of the  names, that number 421, my lord.  Is it also called  Staax hait?  Staax hait, the end.  The end?  Yes.  Is that name of part of the territory or all of it?  Well, two names in that mountain.  So the territory has two names?  Yes.  My lord, because there is references to 421, maybe  the Court may wish to refer to that at tab 19, and  there is -- actually was a mis-numbering of two and,  since it is early in the day, I'd like it cleared up  right now.  Just before you do that, Madam Registrar, I seem to  be without my copy of, is it Exhibit 19, is it?  It is 29.  47 THE REGISTRAR:  I will get it. 1359  1  THE  COURT  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  18  MR.  PLANT  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  THE  COURT  30  31  32  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  MR.  PLANT  42  43  THE  TRANS  44  45  MR.  PLANT  46  THE  TRANS  47  MR.  PLANT  It must be on my desk somewhere.  I am sorry, Mr.  Grant, all right.  At the very last page of that, page 7 of tab 19,  there is two 421's.  The second one is Ksan or  Skeena River and possibly we can delete that  reference from the exhibit because it's always been  the one before that that has been changed, and also  delete the reference to Skeena River because it  hasn't come up that much in the evidence of Mrs.  Ryan and, in any event, it's never been the number  that we have -- whenever we have referred to 421  during her evidence, it's always been to the first  421.  Yes.  Now, I also would like to clarify another point.  Is this 421 the first one also known as  Gasilaatxwit?  Is that the second definition?  I think it is the first.  I see.  Yes.  She's just given the name and I understand  Staax hait.  I also understood from talking with  third party that there is -- that the name that  she's been pronouncing doesn't sometimes sound like  Staax hait, and I believe there is a third name that  I believe Madam Interpreter spelled out this  morning, a third spelling of that name.  My  instructions are that we are talking about the same  place.  It just goes by the two names.  :  All right.  Well then, Mr. Grant suggested deletion  of the second of 421 and that's recorded and I don't  think it has to be a matter of agreement at all.  What I am being told is that the second name that  she's given us is also shown as part of the first  421.  Is that it?  :  The second name she gave is part of the first 421.  She's also giving another pronunciation which is not  presently written down under 421.  :  All right.  Thank you.  :  And maybe you may wish Madam Translator to give the  spellings of that.  :  May I have the spelling of that territory as it is  being pronounced by Mrs. Ryan?  LATOR:  Gasilaatxwit?  G - underline -  a-s-i-1-a-a-t-x-w-i-t.  :  A-a-t-x-w-i-t?  LATOR:  Yes. 1360  1  Q  2  A  3  MR.  PLANT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  MR.  PLANT  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  MR.  PLANT  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  MR.  PLANT  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  MR.  PLANT  25  26  27  28  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  PLANT  31  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  PLANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  PLANT  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Gasilaatxwit?  Yes, Gasilaatxwit.  I was wondering how to get that out of Gasilaatxwit.  It is a complicated language.  Mrs. Ryan, just make sure I have this right.  Is  Gasilaatxwit the same place as Staax hait?  Yes.  And this is the territory that we sometimes call the  Carnaby territory of Hanamuxw?  Yes.  It would be convenient I think if your lordship had  a copy of the map of this territory which is one of  the two maps in tab 4 of Exhibit 29.  We have been calling it number 2.  It is number 2.  Yes, Hanamuxw, number 2.  Now, Mrs. Ryan, as I understand it, there is a  creek?  Xsiluu Saadit.  Xsiluu Saadit?  Yes, that's the boundary line.  Yes.  That's number 419, I believe, in the -- at tab  196 Exhibit 29, my lord, and does your lordship have  that?  If the map is oriented with the label at the  bottom, the heavy line on the left, that is to say  the left-hand part of the territory.  Yes.  Has this word or a very similar word drawn along the  line.  Yes.  What is the number of that again?  419.  Yes, thank you.  The spelling is not quite the same, but I am not  taking any issue with that.  Now, does that creek  flow right -- that's a creek, is it?  Yes.  Does it flow right into the Skeena?  Yes.  Is there an Indian reserve at the mouth of that  creek?  What you talking about?  You know --  I know that Hazelton got the own reserve in.  What I am talking about is the mouth of the creek, 1361  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30 THE  COURT  31  32  A  33  34 MR.  PLANT  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Xsiluu Saadit?  Xsiluu Saadit.  And that comes into the Skeena?  Yes.  There is an Indian reserve there, isn't there?  No.  Not to your knowledge?  Well, it is -- Gwaans owns that place, the other  side of me.  I understand that you say that that territory  belongs to Gwaans?  Yes.  That's the name that you hold?  Yes.  Does that territory belong to Hanamuxw or to Gwaans?  Yes, own the same House but they got two hunting  ground.  Who has this hunting ground, the Staax hait hunting  ground?  The Staax hait.  You are pointing to yourself?  Gwaans, Gwaans own that.  Now, I am suggesting to you that there is an Indian  reserve at the mouth of the creek, Xsiluu Saadit,  leaving aside for the moment the fact that that is  the territory that you say belongs to Gwaans?  Yes.  Do you agree that there is an Indian reserve there?  Well, that's Indian -- that's Gitksan's claim.  I think the problem is that the witness doesn't  recognize Indian reserves.  I didn't want to follow the Indian reserve because  the reserve is making us weak.  And you don't recognize Indian reserves?  No.  And so where that creek comes down?  Yes.  That's —  That's the boundary.  Yes, and on one side of it is your territory?  Yes, and Spookw on the other side.  Right.  The other side -- I think about the other  side of this territory, Staax hait?  Yes.  And the boundary line follows the ridge there?  Yes. 1362  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35 MR.  PLANT  36  37  38  3 9 MR.  GRANT  40  41  42 THE  COURT  43  4 4 MR.  PLANT  4 5 MR.  GRANT  46  47  And I suggest to you that when that boundary line  comes down right up to the Skeena, does it come up  to the Skeena?  Yes.  That's right across from the village of Kitsequkla,  across the Kitsequkla River?  You talking about the bridge between Hazelton and  Kitsequkla or CN?  I am not sure what the bridge is between Hazelton  and Kitsequkla?  Well, there is another -- a bridge on the highway  side.  Yes?  That's the one you talking about?  Well, if there is a bridge there, yes?  Yes.  And does Gwaans' territory come right down to the --  Yes.  -- comes right down to that bridge?  Yes.  Does Gwaans own the bridge?  Well, they supposed to, but the amxsiwaa put the  bridge in.  That's the white man?  Yes.  And where that territory -- where that boundary  comes down to the Skeena?  Yes.  There is an Indian reserve there too, isn't there?  Well, they -- the old people lives there before.  You don't recognize the fact that there is an Indian  reserve there?  The government says there is one,  though, right?  Yes.  And what my question for you is, does Gwaans also  have that territory, that part of the territory  where the boundary line crosses the place that the  government says is a reserve?  My lord, I don't know where --  witness can know where that is.  figure out where that is.  I think Mr. Grant is right, Mr.  is not an easy one to answer.  No.  It is not an easy one to ask either, my lord.  My lord, of course I would propose that it may  expedite matters if my friend is intending to prove  the location of reserves, there may be an easier way  I don't know how the  I certainly can't  Plant.  The question 1363  1  2  THE  COURT  3  4  MR.  PLANT  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  MR.  PLANT  22  THE  COURT  23  24  A  25  MR.  PLANT  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  PLANT  35  THE  TRANS  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  PLANT  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  PLANT  40  41  42  THE  COURT  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT  to do it than through this witness.  I don't think that's Mr. Plant's purpose at this  point.  No, it isn't, my lord, and I think I can accomplish  my purpose by asking this question or these  questions:  Think back.  There is a boundary line of  Gwaans' territory that comes down the ridge.  Remember that?  Yes.  And I am talking about the Staax hait territory?  Yes.  And it comes down the ridge right to the --  Yes.  And on one side of that ridge is Gwaans' territory?  Which -- what you talking about?  Well, the -- I am talking about the ridge that forms  the boundary as it comes down the mountain, the  boundary of Gwaans' territory?  I can't get you.  Okay.  Well, who has the property on the other side of the  ridge from Gwaans?  That's Gwis gyen at the back, Gwis gyen.  And then --  Behind the mountain and Gwaans is this way and Gwis  gyen is in the other side, the mountain.  And Gwaans' territory goes right to the river?  Yes.  How does one spell that name, please?  Which name?  The territory on the other side of the ridge.  Gwis Gyen.  LATOR:  Gwis Gyen is number 22.  Is is that X-s-g-o-n-i-m-l-a-x-h-a?  The name Gwis Gyen, my lord.  Yes.  It is up again with the label at the bottom.  The  name Gwis Gyen is close to the top of the page under  the name Haxbagwootxw.  Thank you.  Well, while I am in my present state of  uncertainty, I will ask one more question.  The  solid black line on this plan number 2 of Exhibit  29(4) I think it is, roughly paralleling the ridge  line; is that a highway line or a road of some kind?  Oh, the thinner line? 1364  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  PLANT  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  MR.  PLANT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  THE  COURT  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  THE  COURT  38  39  MR.  GRANT  40  MR.  PLANT  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Yes.  Yes.  There is a road that goes up that -- in that  area.  All right.  That's what this thinner line is on this  map?  Yes, I believe -- yes, I believe so because it comes  right down.  Yes.  Thank you.  There is a creek in Gwis Gyen's territory or perhaps  it is a river called Xsu'wii gwanks, Xsu'wii gwanks?  Xsu'wii gwanks.  I don't think there was a number for that.  The  spelling on the map is X-s-u space w-i-i space  g-w-a-n-k-s.  And that's Juniper Creek, isn't it?  Yes.  Is there a road up Juniper Creek?  Yes.  Now, there is a big forest access road up there;  isn't there?  Yes.  You know Ken Harris?  Yes.  And he holds a Gitksan name; doesn't he?  Yes.  You have some uncertainty about that?  Well —  What's the matter, Mr. Grant?  I thought that the answer was clear.  I didn't  know --  She definitely had a hesitation in her answer.  Okay.  I didn't see the witness --  I don't know if she has any hesitation or not but I  think counsel is entitled to ask her.  I thought a suggestion was made that I didn't pick  up on, my lord.  I thought there was a suggestion made but I think  with respect it is a perfectly proper one.  All right, my lord.  We are all talking about the fact that you took a  second or two to answer my question about whether  Ken Harris has a Gitksan name?  Yes.  Are you certain of that?  Are you certain he has a  name?  Yes. 1365  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  MR.  PLANT  7  THE  TRANS  8  MR.  PLANT  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  THE  COURT  16  THE  TRANS  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  PLANT  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  PLANT  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  THE  COURT  46  47  And what is the name?  You want me to -- to answer that?  I wouldn't have asked it if I didn't want you to  answer it, Mrs. Ryan?  Haxbagwootxw.  It is in Gwis gyen's House.  :  Haxbagwootxw is one of the names?  LATOR:  It is number 34.  Haxbagwootxw is a chief's name; isn't it?  Well, Gwis gyen is the chief in that House.  Is Gwis Gyen the only chief in the House?  Well, they four in that House.  And one of the chiefs in that House is Haxbagwootxw?  Yes.  :  Could I have the number again, please?  LATOR:  Number 34.  Thank you.  And does your lordship have Gwis Gyen as number 22?  Yes.  Does Haxbagwootxw have his own House?  No.  Now, we are talking about the Fireweed clan, aren't  we?  Well, this House is there.  That's Guxsan, Gwis  gyen, Wiigyet, Xsgogimlaxha, and Hanamuxw.  There is  five House in the village.  I think you called them --  Means 5 Brothers.  The 5 Brothers, yes.  Where does Ken Harris live?  In Prince Rupert.  He's lived there for a long time, hasn't he?  Yes.  Do you remember when he took the name Haxbagwootxw?  No, I can't.  Was Haxbagwootxw ever a chief of the House?  Gwis gyen was .  That's not my question.  Was Haxbagwootxw ever the  chief of his own House?  No.  They don't have their own House.  They are at  the same House in Gwis Gyen.  As far as you are aware, was that always the case?  Yes.  I am sorry, Mr. Plant, but I have to interrupt again  to clarify something.  I am not sure if Ken Harris  is one of the 5 Brothers, or he is? 1366  1  A  2  THE  COURT  3  A  4  THE  COURT  5  A  6  THE  COURT  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  A  10  THE  COURT  11  12  13  A  14  THE  COURT  15  16  A  17  18  19  THE  COURT  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  PLANT  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  I mentioned the Houses.  Yes?  Yeah.  His was not one of those Houses?  In one of them, Ken was in the Gwis gyen House.  He is one of the wings of Gwis gyen House?  Yes, yes.  But not one of the 5 Brothers?  Well, I mentioned the House.  That's why.  What I want to find out is, I am having some  difficulty in this regard to know whether the 5  Brothers are the chiefs of five houses?  Yes.  Or the 5 Brothers are wings of the chief of a single  House?  Well, I just mentioned the name of the House.  There  is Wiigyet, Gwis gyen, Xsgogimlaxha, Guxsan and  Hanamuxw.  So Ken Harris is not one of the 5 Brothers?  No, but he is member in Gwis gyen House.  Yes, thank you.  He is a chief in Gwis gyen House?  Yes, yes, yes.  And I suggest to you that he has his own House?  No, no.  You deny that?  No.  I suggest to you that in your lifetime, there was a  disagreement about who should sit in the seat at the  Feast Hall that Gwis Gyen now sits in?  Well, I can't answer you.  Why can't you answer me?  Well, that's happened before long time and we not  supposed to bring it up.  They already settled it.  That's a part of Gitksan law, isn't it?  Yes.  When you settle a dispute, you are not supposed to  talk about it anymore; right?  Yes.  But there was a dispute?  Mm-hmm, yes.  The dispute was over who should sit in that seat at  the Feast Hall?  Gwis gyen is.  And Gwis gyen sits there now?  Yes. 1367  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27 THE  COURT  2 8 MR.  GRANT  2 9 MR.  PLANT  30 THE  COURT  31 MR.  PLANT  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Ken Harris --  Ken lives in Prince Rupert and Gwis gyen always  attended the Feast.  That's why that in that place.  And Ken Harris went off to live in Prince Rupert?  Yes.  And so the other chiefs in Kitsequkla didn't think  that he should have a seat at the head table; did  they?  Well, that's -- I can't answer you.  Feel, you know,  that I can't tell you.  Well, do you know the answer to my question?  I know, but I can't tell it in front of the people.  That's the Gitksan law.  What happens in Gitksan law if you talk about a  dispute once it is settled?  Well, I am started to trouble again if I talk to  the -- in front of the people.  It all flares up?  Yes.  Is there a term in Gitksan for that law that you  have just described?  Is there a Gitksan word for  it?  There is lot of names for that but I can't --  There is a lot of names for that?  Yes.  Sa has hosasxw.  That's our language --  Gitksan language; making trouble it means.  The same in Italian I understand.  Yes.  I beg your pardon, my lord?  The same in Italian.  I asked you some questions about Jeffrey Johnson's  estate?  Oh, yeah.  And your daughter Joan received his piano?  Did your  daughter Joan get Jeffrey Johnson's piano?  No.  They are still in his House in Hazelton.  And as I understand it, you received his totem pole?  Yes.  And his regalia; is that a fair word?  Yes, yes.  I suggest that his funeral expenses were paid by  Wilmer and Arnold?  No.  You deny that?  No.  That's us pay the funeral.  Who's us?  Who do you mean by us? 136?  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39 THE  COURT  40  41  42 MR.  PLANT  43 THE  COURT  4 4 MR.  PLANT  45  Q  46  47  Well, my daughter and I and the rest of my family.  Who keeps the regalia today?  It is in Ksan, long house.  It is in the Ksan village?  Yes.  Which long house is it in?  Well, there is a House there where they keep it.  It is in the museum?  Yes.  Now, you told us about the totem pole being moved to  Tom Moore's property?  Yes.  I mentioned before when we talk about it.  I  guess you listened to it.  I can't repeat it again.  I am not going to ask you to repeat it but let me  ask you this:  Is that one of the problems that  might be covered by this law that you have told us  about a few minutes ago, the law against making  trouble?  Well, I didn't want to brought it up.  I already  mentioned it and I didn't want to repeat it.  Did you break the Gitksan law by mentioning it?  No, no.  I am still follow the Gitksan law.  You not  supposed to talk about it all the time.  There is a  time when they talk it over.  That's Gitksan law and  I didn't want to brought it up every time.  What is it that you didn't want to bring up every  time?  Because there trouble there and I don't want any  trouble.  There is trouble in the fact that --  Yes.  -- the pole was moved?  Yes.  But you are allowed to talk about that?  Well, sometimes.  But you are not allowed to talk about Ken Harris and  Stanley Williams and the --  No, against the law.  When you are talking about moving the pole, you are  talking about when the council moved it where it was  in Kitsequkla, are you not?  Yes, and perhaps I will --  To Mr. Moore's property.  When I am talking about moving the pole, I am  talking about when the band council moved the pole  to Mr. Moore's property? 1369  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  PLANT  6  Q  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  10  A  11  MR.  PLANT  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  MR.  PLANT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47  MR.  PLANT  Yes.  You understood that, didn't you?  Yes.  When was that, please?  Nineteen seventy?  Yes.  That was to make way for a school?  That was to make  way for a school?  Yes, yes.  And when that happened, you went to the Indian  agent?  Yes.  That was because you wanted to get your pole back?  I didn't want the people to make fun of me if  they -- when they move the pole.  That's the reason  why I come to the Village to ask him for help and he  was making fun of me that time.  You went to the Indian agent to ask him for help?  Yes.  Now, you have told us that Earl Muldoe is carving a  new pole?  Yes.  Was it you who asked him to carve the pole?  My family.  But who made the request?  My family.  Who was it that talked to Earl Muldoe?  Was it you?  I didn't want to say it.  When you decided to do  something, you can't tell it in front of the people;  that's Gitksan law.  Well, I want you to tell me who went and talked to  Earl Muldoe?  Was it you?  Yes.  Now, you are also having the old totem pole fixed?  Yes.  And you asked Earl Muldoe to fix the old pole?  Yes.  And you have -- you had a couple of ceremonies --  Yes.  Right, and one of the ceremonies --  Yes.  Wait until I finish the question, Mrs. Ryan.  I think she is trying to keep up with the pace of  Mr. Plant which is speeding up pretty fast. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  1370  We will see how much trouble we can get into here.  Mrs. Ryan, there was a ceremony for the lowering of  the pole, wasn't there?  Yes.  We going to straighten it out when the new  pole up.  We gonna put it together.  Put what together?  The Feast.  Right?  Yes.  But you have already had one ceremony?  Yes.  And that was a ceremony for lowering the pole?  No, no.  That's new pole.  Okay.  Well, as I recall in your evidence, you told  us about a ceremony that Ernest Hyzims and Fanny  Williams came to and if you don't recall --  We invited Ernest Hyzims but he didn't show up that  time.  Did you invite Fanny Williams?  Yes, yes.  Just so that everyone understands what it is I am  talking about, I am going to read you some questions  that Mr. Grant asked you and some answers that you  gave on June 10, Volume 16 of the transcript, page  1061, beginning at line 34.  "Q  Okay.  But when you said the pole, before  you moved it up to Earl Muldoe's to be  fixed was that your House in Kitsequkla,  the old pole I am talking of?  A  Yes.  Q  And you had it taken down so it could be  moved to be fixed?  A  Yes.  Q When you were having it taken down, did  you have it -- did you invite anyone to  come?  A  Yes.  Q  Who did you invite?  A  I invited Hloxs and An t'oo'liksim  hloxs."  Johnson.  And you invited some other people?  I invited Fanny Williams.  Fanny Williams, yes.  Now, you know what we are  talking about? 1371  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5 MR.  PLANT  6  7  8 THE  TRANS  9 MR.  PLANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  4 6 MR.  PLANT  47 THE  TRANS  Yes.  Was your daughter Joan Ryan there at that ceremony?  No.  She was at Prince Rupert.  She is teaching.  That's why she wasn't there.  :  Now, you told us about another ceremony for the new  pole -- I am sorry, I read a name which I didn't  pause for the spelling of it.  LATOR:  I have got it.  Thank you.  Mrs. Ryan, you told us about another  ceremony for the new pole or perhaps I should call  this a ceremony for the new pole and I believe you  called it K'ots gan?  K'ots gan.  I understand that that's the ceremony for when they  cut a tree down?  Yes.  And we saw a video tape of that?  Yes.  And your daughter Joan wasn't at that ceremony, was  she?  No.  Why wasn't she there?  Because she was on her way up and she had an  accident.  She had an accident?  Yes.  Was she hurt in the accident?  Yeah, her hand.  Her hand was hurt?  Yes.  Is her hand better now?  Yes.  Would she be able to give evidence to speak on  behalf of the House?  Yes.  But she's asked you to speak on behalf of the House?  Yes, because she's not home all the time.  And when she's not home, do you look after the  affairs of the House in her absence?  Yes.  When was the last big Feast that you attended in  Kitsequkla?  Oh, I attend the feast in Kitwangax when Gwi 'nuu  raised his pole last November.  :  I don't have that name.  LATOR:  Gwi 'nuu, G-w-i-'-n-u-u. 1 MR.  PLANT  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  1372  Where was that Feast?  Kitwangax, because they didn't want the people to  travel all the way up to Kitwancool because the road  is slippery.  And Gwi 'nuu is a Chief in Kitwancool?  Yes.  Were all of the Chiefs from Kitsequkla invited?  Yes.  The Fireweed Chiefs were invited?  Yes.  Was your daughter Joan there?  No.  Because she was down in Prince Rupert teaching?  Yes.  Have you ever heard your daughter Joan speak in the  Feast --  Yes.  But let me finish the question.  Have you ever heard  her speak in the Feast Hall?  Yes.  When was that?  I can't keep track what we do.  You remember the last time that she spoke at the  Feast?  Well, I attend when Delgam uukw's funeral, I was  there.  Was your daughter Joan there?  No, she was teaching.  I want to ask you when you heard your daughter Joan?  All the time.  Try and remember the last time that you heard your  daughter Joan speak at a Feast?  I can't remember.  Did your daughter Joan speak at the Feast in 1966  when she took the name Hanamuxw?  Yes.  Did Harold Sinclair also speak at that Feast?  Harold Sinclair.  I can't remember but lot of chiefs  from Hazelton and some from Kitwangax and  Kitsequkla, Harold Sinclair was Fireweed from Gwis  gyen's House.  I understand that Harold Sinclair did speak at that  Feast in 1966 when your daughter took the name  Hanamuxw and he talked about the land question, the  aboriginal land question?  Are you there that time? 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  1373  No.  I am asking the questions, Mrs. Ryan.  Well, sounds to me you attend the Feast.  Were you there, Mrs. Ryan?  Yes.  I was there.  Okay.  I am the one that put up the things for my uncle's  funeral, Hanamuxw.  And you paid quite a considerable sum of money,  didn't you, at that Feast?  Oh, yes, yes, yes.  Did Harold Sinclair speak at that Feast about the  aboriginal, the native land question?  I can't remember.  He might have?  Maybe.  Now, I am going to jump around again, Mrs. Ryan.  You know that there is a highway that goes from  Hazelton to Terrace?  Yes.  And that highway passes right through Staax hait,  doesn't it?  Yes.  That's the territory near Carnaby?  Yes.  The territory of Hanamuxw or that's the territory of  Gwaans?  Gwaans, yeah.  And that road was there before you were born, wasn't  it?  The highway?  Yeah?  No.  There was a road there when you were a very little  girl, wasn't there?  Yes.  But it wasn't paved, was it?  No.  And that road goes right through Kitsequkla, the  village?  Yes.  Do you remember when the road was paved?  No, I can't remember.  It was about 20 years ago, wasn't it?  Oh, yes.  Well, I didn't keep track what's going on.  Now, you have given us evidence about smokehouses?  Yes.  And fishing sites? 1374  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  MR.  PLANT  10  THE  TRANS  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  MR.  PLANT  26  THE  TRANS  27  MR.  PLANT  28  THE  TRANS  29  THE  COURT  30  THE  TRANS  31  MR.  PLANT  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  THE  COURT  39  THE  TRANS  40  MR.  PLANT  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Yes.  And these belong to the hereditary chiefs, don't  they?  Yes.  Do you know David Wesley?  Yes.  Well, that's Haits' imsxw.  Haits' imsxw?  His name is Haits' imsxw Hetsjimsxw lax ha.  :  May I have the spelling of that?  LATOR:  The name, yes.  It is number 31 on the  plaintiff's list.  Is he a chief from Kitsequkla?  No, from Kitwancool, but he lives in Kitsequkla now.  He is a member in Haits' imsxw's House in  Kitwancool.  He is not the Chief of the House, though?  Well, he's got the name there Haits' imsxw.  Do you know George Milton?  Yes.  He has passed away?  Yes.  He held the name Mool'xan?  Two names, Haak asxw and Mool'xan.  :  Mool'xan, and that is --  LATOR:  Number 50.  :  And what was the name?  LATOR:  Haak asxw was number 26.  :  Twenty-six?  LATOR:  Yes.  Incidentally, Mrs. Ryan, who holds the name Mool'xan  now?  No one, but Haak asxw, He is the one who holds the  Haak asxw name.  Larry Wright.  Larry Wright, yes, but no one has the Mool'xan name?  No.  :  Does Larry Wright have name number 26?  LATOR:  Yes.  And William Milton, do you know William Milton?  I know him.  Henry Milton's son, Gwaans' son.  And I think you said that --  Well, I mentioned --  -- he is from your father's side or --  No, no.  That's —  I will never get that figured out.  But -- what 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  4 0 MR.  PLANT  41  42 MR.  GRANT  43  44  45  4 6 THE  COURT  47  1375  House was William in?  Mool'xan's House.  Now, I understand that when the highway was paved  for Kitsequkla, David Wesley and George Milton and  William Milton received some money from the  government?  Is that right?  You understand?  Yeah.  You recall that?  (Nod)  You are nodding but I don't think you understand the  question.  I understand you.  They received the money.  And I am suggesting to you that they did.  Do you  know that?  No.  You don't know that?  No.  David Wesley and who?  George Milton?  Yes?  And —  William Milton?  William Milton.  Well, let me see if I could be a bit more specific.  I understand that William Milton had two sheds and  perhaps they were smokehouses that were right where  the highway was going to be?  Mm-hmm, yes.  So the Highway Department wanted to take the sheds  down?  Mm-hmm.  So they paid William Milton some money for it?  Oh, yeah.  Do you remember that?  No, I didn't know that.  I understand that George Milton had something called  a root cellar and he also had two storage sheds and  they may have been smokehouses?  Yeah.  And he was given $175 by the Department of Highways  when they were taken down?  My lord, I am just -- the witness has indicated  clearly that she doesn't know anything about this  and doesn't remember.  I am wondering if my friend  is putting in evidence.  No.  Counsel can't put in evidence but it may be  necessary that this be put squarely to the witness. 1376  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  MR.  PLANT  8  9  THE  COURT  10  11  12  13  MR.  PLANT  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  MR.  PLANT  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  PLANT  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  I don't know what's going to happen in the rest of  this trial.  All he is doing is putting it to her to  give her an opportunity to admit it, deny it or say  she doesn't know, and there are circumstances where  it is necessary to do that.  I don't know whether it  will lead to anything or not.  I am also trying to be more specific in the question  that I asked earlier.  I think that's allowed in cross-examination.  The  witness isn't being harrassed at the moment.  She is  perfectly able to respond to the questions that are  being asked.  I will repeat the last question, my lord, try to.  My understanding, Mrs. Ryan --  Yes.  -- is that George Milton had a root cellar and two  storage sheds which may have been smokehouses?  Yeah.  And that they were taken down because of the  highway --  Yes.  -- construction, and that George Milton was paid  $175 for that.  Now, do you know that?  No.  My understanding is that David Wesley had a root  cellar?  Mm-hmm.  And that it had to be destroyed because of the  highway?  Yes.  And he was paid $100 by the Department of Highways  because of that?  Mm-hmm.  Do you know anything about that?  No.  I'd ask that Exhibit 33(a) be produced?  Does your  lordship have a copy of 33(a)?  Yes.  Would you have a look at those photographs, please,  Mrs. Ryan?  I am sorry, let me get them for you.  You have them before you?  Yes.  When was the first time you saw those photographs?  Xsuwii luu negwit.  Are you talking about Xsuwii luu  negwit? 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1377  No.  I am asking you when the first time you saw  those photographs which constitute Exhibit 33(a),  those, these photographs right here, when was the  first time you saw them?  Well, I think I was ten years old when Grandmother  take me out there.  I am -- look at the photographs, though, just the  photographs.  I am not asking you when the first  time was that you were on the territory.  When was  the first time you saw those pictures?  Well, this is second time I saw it.  He showed it to  me right in here.  And when your lawyer, Mr. Grant, when he showed them  to you --  Yeah.  -- was that the first time you had seen them?  Yeah.  I was there when I was ten years old and  Grandmother was taking me.  They go out trapping at  that time.  Do you know when those pictures were taken?  Well, I didn't go out with the people that taking  the picture.  Did you know that there were people going out to  take pictures?  Yes, but I heard it.  You know who went out?  Mr. Sterritt and Gwis gyen and Hloxs and David  Milton.  Do you know who took the picture?  I can't -- I can't mention the name because I didn't  go with them.  Do you know where the photographer was standing when  he took the picture?  Do you know where that is?  Well, I shouldn't say on your territory, I will just  ask the first question.  Do you know where the  cameraman was standing when he took that picture?  I repeat, you know, you hear me.  I didn't go out  with them.  That's the answer.  If I go out with  them and I could tell who took the picture.  Had you ever --  Understand?  Yes, I have got that now.  Yeah.  Have you ever been to the place?  I did go out with my Grandmother when I was small.  You went to the creek, Xsu wii luu negwit?  Yes. 137?  1  MR.  PLANT  2  3  THE  TRANS  4  THE  COURT  5  THE  TRANS  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  :  I don't have the number for that but I have a  spelling.  X-s-u-w-i-i-1-u-u-n-e-g-w-i-t.  LATOR:  422.  :  I am sorry?  LATOR:  422.  :  Thank you.  It was your Grandmother who taught you about the  boundaries of --  Yes.  Please let me finish the question.  It was your  Grandmother who taught you about the boundaries of  Hanamuxw's territory?  Yes.  You were out there when you were ten?  Mm-hmm.  With your Grandmother?  Yes.  Can you tell me if the place from which this picture  was taken is on your territory or not, and I know  you weren't there but I want you to look at it?  Yeah.  I mentioned the creek there.  You could see the creek?  Xsu wii luu negwit and Xsi noontxwit.  X-s-i-n-o-n?  Well, you know, if I could mention the names every  time you ask and that's the only way.  You can't tell me though whether their picture was  taken from your territory, can you?  Well, I can't answer you.  Because you have never been there?  I was there but you won't believe me.  No.  I believe you, Mrs. Ryan.  Well, it sounds to me you don't believe me.  What I want to know is, have you ever seen this  scene before?  Yes.  Have you ever stood on the hill where it looks like  that?  Yes.  Is that on Hanamuxw's territory?  Yes.  You see Xsu wii luu negwit down the hill?  Yes.  Have you been up on that hill?  Yes.  When you were ten years old? 1379  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  MR.  GRANT  10  MR.  PLANT  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  THE  COURT  24  A  25  26  MR.  PLANT  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  THE  VOICE  32  MR.  PLANT  33  THE  trans:  34  THE  COURT  35  36  37  A  38  39  THE  COURT  40  41  42  MR.  PLANT  43  44  45  46  THE  INTER  47  THE  COURT  Yes.  With your Grandmother?  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, Xsu wii luu negwit has another  name, doesn't it?  Xsinoontxwit.  Well, I am asking you about --  Well, don't ask me any more questions.  At least maybe you could slow down a bit.  Does the creek Xsu wii luu negwit also go by the  name Kitsuns Creek?  Have you ever heard that name  before?  Say that again?  Kitsuns Creek.  It is the English name for it?  Well, there is no English name when I was there.  What about now?  Well, I guess the English name was there now.  But you don't know what the English name is, do you?  I am sorry, I didn't hear your answer?  Well, I can't answer you.  Too many questions you  ask.  Well, I am sorry but --  There is another creek there, they call it Xsi an  disnak.  There is another creek there?  Yes.  What's it called there?  Xsi an disnak.  Number 413.  Is that right, Miss Stevens?  rOR:  Mm-hmm.  413.  Mrs. Ryan, I am not sure whether you said that  there is an English name for the creek now or not.  Did you say that?  Well, my Grandmother didn't mention the English  name.  Yes, I understand that.  But have you since heard of  another name for that creek with the name that Mr.  Plant suggested?  Kitsuns Creek.  I wasn't sure whether you were  telling me, yes, there is another name for it now,  or you were telling me, I don't know of any other  name for it.  Can you help me in that regard?  3TER:  Where does it run?  Well, it doesn't matter where it runs.  The question 1380  1  2  A  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  MR.  PLANT  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  THE  COURT  23  A  24  MR.  PLANT  25  Q  26  A  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  PLANT  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  MR.  PLANT  46  THE  TRANS  47  THE  COURT  is, have you heard of such a name for that creek.  Well, I answer.  It wasn't when the time we were in  that Hanamuxw's hunting ground, the Grandmother  didn't mention these.  I understand that, but I don't know from the answer  you gave a moment ago whether you were saying, yes,  I have heard of another name for that creek or, no,  I haven't heard of another name for that creek.  That's all I am asking now.  I never heard that name before.  The answer was, I never heard that name.  Before.  I think that's it.  You were out there with your Grandmother when you  were ten years old?  Yes.  Have you ever been out there since?  No, but my uncle used to go there and my cousin  Leonard Moore.  Your uncle is Jeffrey Johnson?  Yes, and Gideon Johnson.  The other name?  Gideon Johnson.  Lydia Johnson?  No, Gideon Johnson.  She also gave a name Leonard Moore, my lord.  Yes, thank you.  Leonard Moore has a Gitksan name or doesn't he or he  did have a Gitksan name?  Yes.  Has he passed away?  Yes.  Was his name Niitsxw?  Niitsxw.  Niitsxw.  Who has that name today?  Larry Moore.  Now, when you were looking at that photograph a  couple of days ago, you pointed out a creek that you  told us about already today and that's Xsinoon?  Xsinoontxwit.  Xsinoon?  Xsinoontxwit.  :  Does that have a number?  LATOR:  I don't think so.  :  It is on the map, X-s-i-n-o-o-n. 1  THE  VOICE  2  THE  COURT  3  4  MR.  PLANT  5  6  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  A  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  14  THE  trans:  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  19  MR.  PLANT  20  1381  The same one.  Part of the west boundary of this property, is it  not?  The one I have on the map which your lordship has is  the X-s-i-n-o-o-n, but I understand that Mr. Grant's  position in fact is that there is another version of  that name that refers to the same feature.  I think Madam Interpreter may want to add to it but  I think the witness said the word Xsinoontxwit?  Xsinoontxwit.  So there is an ending to the word which she's  provided which isn't on the name.  Could you give  that spelling?  rOR:  Xsinoontxwit, X-s-i-n-o-o-n-t-x-w-i-t.  Thank you.  And that name, it is my understanding the evidence  will show, is the same as Xsinoon on the map so  that -- it is map number 1 tap 5 of Exhibit 21.  I don't have the spelling for the last part of that.  Is it e-x-w-i-g?  Is there a letter before the e-x?  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  T-x-w-i-t.  22 THE COURT:  T-x-w-i-t?  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  2 4 MR. PLANT:  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  Thank you.  Mrs. Ryan, are Xsinoontxwit --  Xsinoontxwit.  Xsinoontxwit and Xsinoon the same place?  Well, there is two creek there.  That's the creek?  Yes.  Is that the --  The river like -- is a creek.  And that -- you have just looked at the photographs.  You were -- you pointed out that creek, didn't you,  a couple of days ago?  Yes, I did.  Right.  Does Hanamuxw own both sides of that creek?  Yes, yes.  Is the creek the boundary of the territory?  Yes.  If the creek is the boundary of the territory --  Yes.  -- who owns the other side?  Gwagl'lo and Mool'xan.  There is a creek there.  That's Mool'xan and Gwagl'lo, and it is Hanamuxw's  Xsu wii luu negwit and Xsinoontxwit.  I asked you a question once again and I want to ask 1382  1  2  3  4  A  5  MR.  GRANT  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  PLANT  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  MR.  PLANT  34  35  THE  TRANS  36  MR.  PLANT  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  MR.  PLANT  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT  you again, and I want you to think about it.  Does  Hanamuxw own the territory on both sides of Xsi noon  or Xsinoontxwit?  Yes.  With respect, that wasn't the question asked  earlier, my lord, at all.  No, it wasn't.  The question asked her earlier was does she own --  Both sides of the creek.  Does she own both sides of the creek.  Then she was  asked if she owned the territory on both sides of  the territory on the creek and those are two  different questions.  :  Yes.  Well, let me just make sure that I have it clear in  my head.  There is land on both sides of that creek,  isn't there?  Yes.  Does that land belong to Hanamuxw on both sides of  the creek?  Do you hear me?  Well, I did.  Just while ago, I said yes.  Is that what you were taught with your Grandmother?  Yes.  Taught by your Grandmother?  Yes, yes, yes.  And so far as you are aware, has that part of the  boundary of that part of Hanamuxw's territory ever  changed?  No.  :  Have you ever heard of a stream called Xsa gasa  k'iixwit, and I will spell it, I think.  LATOR:  What number is that?  I don't have a number for it, which is on the map  which is Hanamuxw, number 1?  Sounds to me you sleeping.  Is that what that means in Gitksan?  Well, that's you, the way you talking about.  Sounds  to me you have sleep and you don't know what you  saying.  :  Madam, Miss Stevens, I have this word perhaps or  perhaps the interpreter could say it.  X-s-a space  g-a-s-a space k-i-i-x-w-i-t.  :  Which map are you looking at? 1383  1  MR.  PLANT  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  THE  INTER  17  MR.  PLANT  18  THE  COURT  19  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  MR.  PLANT  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  And my lord, on the map territory of Hanamuxw number  1, I am referring to what I understand to be a  stream that is in approximately the lower left-hand  corner of the map and is the stream above the word  Xsa gasa k'iixwit if you have the map oriented with  the label at the bottom.  Does your lordship see Xsa  gasa k'iixwit in the lower left-hand corner, the  next name up in capital is Gaxsbgabaxs  and Wii  hlengwax?  Yes, and then there is a stream an inch or so above  that.  Yes.  Which starts off down at the Skeena, appears to  anyway, and heads up vertically and then takes a jog  to the right.  Yes.  3TER:  I was trying to pronounce that word to her.  With any success?  Well, look at it here, Mr. Interpreter.  It is right  here.  I don't know what that is.  Gaxsbgabaxs.  Well, ask her if she recognizes that word anyway.  My understanding, my lord, is the pronunciation, and  I will try it, Xsa gasa k'iixwit?  Oh, yes.  Xsa gasa k'iixwit.  That's a creek?  Yes.  It flows into the Skeena?  Mm-hmm.  Down river from Kitsequkla, isn't it?  Yes.  Who owns the territory around that stream and I mean  on either side of it?  I can't answer you.  Because you don't know?  I know but I can't.  Too much for me.  Well, perhaps, my lord, it might be a convenient  moment to take the morning adjournment because the  witness might be assisted by it.  All right.  It is almost time for the morning  adjournment anyway. 1384  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned for  2 15 minutes.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT ADJOURNMENT AT  5 11:12 A.M.)  6  7 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  8 a true and accurate transcript of the  9 proceedings herein, transcribed to  10 the best of my skill and ability.  11  12  13  14  15 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  16 United Reporting Service LTd.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1385  REGI  THE  CROS  9  10  11  12  13  14  15 THE  16 MR.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 MR.  32 THE  33  34 MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44 THE  4 5 MR.  4 6 THE  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:30)  STRAR:  Order in court.  COURT:  Mr. Plant.  S-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Mrs. Ryan, I asked you about the creek.  A    Gsi ansa k'iipxwit.  Q    Yes.  A    Well, I don't know.  Q    Who owns the territory around that creek?  A    I said I don't know.  Q    Do you know where that creek is?  A    Yes.  Q    Is Gaxsbgabaxs one of the neighbours on your  territory?  I am sorry, I can't pronounce  TRANSLATOR:  Gaxsbgabaxs?  PLANT:  Yes?  Yes.  And when I referred to the territory, I am referring  to the territory of Xsu wii Luu Negwit and  Xsinoontxwit?  Yes.  And Gaxsbgabaxs is one of Hanamuxw' neighbours on  that territory?  Yes.  Now, have you ever heard of a place called wii  lo'op?  That's wii lo'op.  And I am referring to a place that has the spelling  W-I-I L-O-O-P.  It's in the inset of the map.  Yes, I see it.  It's a mountain peak, is it?  Gwagl'lo.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  GRANT  COURT  A  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  PLANT  COURT  A  And is that a mountain?  Yes.  You said "yes"?  Yes.  It's a tall mountain?  No.  It miinhl dekwit, what they call it in Gitksan  language.  What do they call it?  Miinhl dekwit.  I am sorry, I didn't get it.  I didn't either.  It sounded like light foot, but I gather that's --  Well, that's Frog clan, I can't talk about it. 1386  1  THE  COURT  2  A  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  MR.  PLANT  6  THE  TRANS  7  MR.  PLANT  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  PLANT  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  THE  TRANS  34  MR.  PLANT  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  :  What did she say it means, please?  Miinhl detwit.  :  She gave a Gitksan word, not what it meant.  believe the interpreter got it.  : Do you have that, Miss Stevens?  LATOR:  Mh'm.  And I can't pronounce it, but --  Miinhl dekwit.  And is that another name for  Wii lo'op, miinhl dekwit.  Are they the same place?  Yes, the same one.  Well, I  because Frog clan owns that.  Which Chief?  Gwagl'lo.  I am not supposed  because of Giskaast.  You gave lots of evidence wh  you about --  Oh, yes, yes. But it's impo  only supposed to talk about  Does that also apply to fish  Well, that's what I understa  about the fishing site.  You talked about the fishing  didn't you?  Yes, yes, yes. But in hunti  supposed to talk about it be  to talk about it and besides  lo'op is Ganeda.  There was a word that you ju  get, Ganeda?  LATOR:  Ganeda.  wii lo'op?  can't talk about it  to talk about it  en Mr. Grant was asking  rtant this because they  it.  ing sites?  nd, that's why I mention  sites of other Chiefs,  ng ground I am not  cause they only supposed  Giskaast.  And wii  st used that I didn't  Oh, Ganeda is the name of your clan?  No.  Not your clan, sorry, Frog clan?  Wii lo'op.  Mrs. Ryan, I would like you to have another look at  Exhibit 33A.  I am getting tired of looking at picture.  Good.  If you were standing where that picture was  taken, where would wii lo'op be?  The same place, but it's a little ways out.  Is wii lo'op shown in that photograph?  No.  I will wait until you get your glasses on.  I am 1387  MR. GRANT:  THE COURT:  9  10 MR.  11  12 MR.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  30  31  32  33  34 MR.  35  36  37  38 THE  39  4 0 MR.  41  42  43  44  45  4 6 THE  47  A  GRANT:  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  PLANT:  Q  A  COURT:  A  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  sorry, I didn't catch what you said.  She said:  Did you know that she is getting her  glasses.  Just for the record, she hadn't looked at  the photograph when she answered, my lord, she was  getting her glasses on.  She also said, as I have it, that wii lo'op would be  near where this picture was taken from, but a little  way out.  Close to it.  She said "close to it" just when you said that, my  lord.  Now, Mrs. Ryan, where would it be?  Before you put  your glasses away, let me ask you -- let me make  sure I understand this.  Is wii lo'op in that  picture?  No, no.  Where would it be?  I said "close to it".  Which direction?  But I -- I can't talk it over because it belongs to  Ganeda.  It belongs to the Frogs?  Yes.  Well, I want you to tell me, Mrs. Ryan --  Well, that's what I said to you.  I can't say it  because I am a different clan.  Did you understand  what I am saying?  Well, Mrs. Ryan, we can't have you come here and  talk about things when Mr. Grant is asking you  questions and then have you say:  I won't talk about  that when Mr. Plant asks you.  You must treat both  these worthy gentlemen the same way.  So, Mrs. Ryan, where is wii lo'op in relation to  this photograph?  Ask Neil, he is the one that take the picture there.  No, Mrs. Ryan, you can't say that.  I am sorry --  Well, I am sorry, I can't answer.  Do you know where it is?  Did you hear me?  I asked a different question.  Do you know where it  is, Mrs. Ryan?  I can't answer because --  Mrs. Ryan, we can't go on like this.  If you don't  know, well then that is one thing, but you are not 13?  1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  MR.  GRANT  16  MR.  PLANT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  PLANT  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  40  MR.  PLANT  41  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  46  47  entitled when you have been in the box for four and  a half days under examination by Mr. Grant to now  say that:  I can't answer something.  You must  answer if you know.  If you don't know then, of  course, you can't.  Well, wii lo'op was there close to Hanamuxw.  Where is it, is it off to the right or off to the  left --  Yes, yes.  No, listen to my question, Mrs. Ryan.  Is it off to  the right of the photograph or off to the left?  Well, you trying to put me on a -- it seems to me  you hang me up.  My lord, if it is of assistance --  Well —  I want to say one thing.  The witness did say that  it was close to it.  Yes, I have that.  And she also said it was not in the picture, those  two things she has said.  Yes, I have that.  So, Mrs. Ryan, you know that it's close to the  picture?  Mh'm, yes.  And it's not on the picture?  No.  Where is it?  You are still not answering, are you?  Yeah.  Oh, you are getting your glasses out, very good.  Xsu wii luu negwit and I think that's --  So you are indicating an area off to the left-hand  side of the photograph, in fact, you indicated the  middle of the left-hand photograph, didn't you?  Yes.  For the record, she indicated to the left of the  left-hand photograph in Exhibit 33A and she said:  I  think it is there.  Let's put the number 3 in the approximate area of  the witness' identification of the location of this  place.  My lord, just before my friend asks -- my friend and  I were trying to agree to where it was.  She pointed  to the left-hand side of the picture and he has put  a number 3 in that area and I was going to propose,  for the record, that it would be in the area of that 1389  1  2  MR.  PLANT:  3  MR.  GRANT:  4  5  THE  COURT:  6  MR.  PLANT:  7  8  THE  COURT:  9  MR.  PLANT:  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  INTERPRETER  37  MR.  PLANT:  38  39  Q  40  A  41  MR.  PLANT:  42  INTERPRETER  43  44  MR.  PLANT:  45  INTERPRETER  46  47  MR.  PLANT:  number 3 that he has put down.  That's fine, I agree.  That is giving a half an inch on both sides because  it was sort of a general area and she said that.  Yes, all right.  I have placed a couple of arrows on either side of  the number 3 --  Yes.  -- In an attempt to represent the approximate  identification.  Now, you have told us that this mountain -- in fact,  you have told us, in no uncertain terms, that this  mountain belongs to the Frog clan, doesn't it?  Yes.  Has it ever belonged to the House of Hanamuxw?  No.  And within the last year or so, has there been any  change to the boundaries --  No, no.  No one could change the boundary.  And I am referring specifically to the boundary in  the area of wii lo'op.  Has there been any change to  that boundary?  No.  To the best of your knowledge, the boundaries of the  territory of Hanamuxw have always been the same?  Yes.  Are there any gaps between any part of Hanamuxw'  territory and the territories of any of the other  Chiefs?  There is lot of a Chiefs there, but I can't talk it  over.  That wasn't my question, Mrs. Ryan.  Yes.  My question is are there any gaps, any places --  Yes.  :  She asked what "gaps" meant.  And you've told her -- translated the word "gaps"  for her.  Are there any gaps between any --  Yes.  What did you say to her?  :  I asked her if there was any gaps between any  territories.  I thought that's what you asked.  And her answer was "yes".  Where are those gaps --  :  I think she just understood my question.  I don't  know if she answered. 1390  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  THE COURT:  7  INTERPRETER  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  INTERPRETER  15  16  THE COURT:  17  INTERPRETER  18  19  A  20  INTERPRETER  21  22  MR. PLANT:  23  INTERPRETER  24  A  25  MR. PLANT:  26  INTERPRETER  27  MR. GRANT:  27  MR.  GRANT:  28  29  A  30  MR.  PLANT:  31  A  32  MR.  GRANT:  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT:  40  MR.  PLANT:  41  Q  42  43  INTERPRETER  44  45  MR.  PLANT:  46  A  47  INTERPRETER  Do you understand the question now, Mrs. Ryan?  Yes.  Are there any gaps, then?  Yes.  Where are they?  What did she say, Mr. Interpreter?  :  She asked is she going to describe it in the  court.  She misunderstood my question.  She said  there are holes in the -- there are holes on the  mountains and there are quite a few of them.  She  said that all the territories are -- all the  boundaries are correct on that map and there are --  Hanamuxw.  :  Hanamuxw.  She says there are holes there and she  is talking about holes in the ground.  Holes in the ground or holes in the boundaries?  :  Holes in the ground.  Not holes in the boundaries,  the boundaries are correct.  Oh, yeah.  :  There are holes in the boundaries.  Xsinoontxwit  is near wii lo'op.  Xsinoontxwit?  :  Xsinoontxwit.  Xsinoontxwit.  Is near wii lo'op?  :  Wii lo'op.  That's the name of the creek she gave earlier, my  lord.  Xsinoontxwit.  What did the witness say?  Well, we always talk.  My lord, just for the record, what's occurred is an  exchange between the witness and the interpreter and  hopefully all of which the interpreter translated  talking about holes and gaps and start with the  meaning of gaps.  I propose that my friend may want  to go back to the beginning and sort out what it was  in the evidence and he may not wish to do that.  Well, I will have to leave that to Mr. Plant.  Well, I am quite happy to go back, my lord.  Mrs. Ryan, are there holes in the boundaries between  the territories of the Chiefs?  :  I asked if the territorial boundaries were correct  and she said they were correct.  Ask her if there are holes in the boundaries.  There is a lot like the ground outside.  :  There are a lot of holes -- all mountains have 1391  1  2 MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  COURT  30  31  32  A  33 MR.  PLANT  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  4 7 MR.  GRANT  holes in them.  Are there spaces between the territories of the  Gitksan Chiefs that nobody owns?  No.  They are close together the same as the back of  Kitsequkla.  There is Mool'xan, Gwagl'lo and there  is Duubisxw and Guxsan and Gwis gyen.  And they are all --  And Mehlasxw.  And they are all right beside each other?  Yes.  You said that the boundaries are correct on the map?  Yes.  Which --  Hanamuxw' fishing and hunting ground is the boundary  of Xsinoontxwit and Xsuwii luu negwit.  Which map are you referring to?  I use my own map.  And what is that map, is it a piece of paper?  No.  Grandmother was showing me the places.  Her dad  was Mool'xan and he showed me the place and Gitksan  hunting ground, Gitksan.  When you say that --  We walked over to Hanamuxw' hunting ground when they  go to their own hunting ground at the hunting river  and the grandmother show me.  So I can't tell you  about the Frogs, but I am talking about my own at  Hanamuxw' hunting ground.  Well, Mrs. Ryan, let me ask you, are there any  spaces between the territories of Hanamuxw and her  neighbours?  No, because they close together.  Mrs. Ryan, yesterday I asked you to look at the  affidavit that your daughter swore in answer to  interrogatories, do you remember that?  Yes.  And you were able to identify your daughter's --  Yes.  -- signature, weren't you?  Yes.  I am going to put that affidavit before you again  and a photocopy of part of it.  And do you see on  the second part of that copy a photocopy of your  daughter's signature?  Yes.  My lord, I am just proposing to my friend -- I am 1392  1  2  3  4  5  6  MR.  PLANT  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  PLANT  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  PLANT  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  THE  COURT  21  22  MR.  PLANT  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  PLANT  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  REGISTRAR  29  THE  COURT  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  MR.  PLANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  PLANT  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  anticipating he wants to put in certain of the  question and answer material from it and, if he  does, I think we can perhaps expedite it instead of  having her prove those answers and asking her  questions.  Well, my lord, what I would like to do first of  all --  or what I would like to do is to file with  the court the copy of the affidavit that Mrs. Ryan  swore and Questions 58 and 59C and the answers that  were given to those.  And as part of the process of  answering question 59C, Joan Ryan attached to her  affidavit a map as Schedule C.  What's the date of her affidavit?  The date of the affidavit is the 20th day of  February, 1987.  Yes.  And I am proposing to file these two as exhibits  subject to my friend's position.  I have no objection to those going in as exhibits.  All right.  The three of them can be the next  exhibit, then.  Just two documents.  I see.  Just the extract from the interrogatory which is  attached to the copy of the affidavit and then the  map.  All right.  What's the next exhibit number, please?  58.  All right.  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT 58:  Affidavit and Map).  Is the map part of the documents you are putting in  as Exhibit 58?  Yes, originally it is part.  Yes, all right.  Part of the exhibit, then.  I have a copy for your Lordship.  Mrs. Ryan, I am putting before you Exhibit 58.  Part  of that is a map that was attached to the  interrogatories that your daughter answered back in  February of this year.  Do you understand what I am  saying?  Yes.  And the map has, at the bottom in big red letters,  "Draft Copy".  And to save my friend some  difficulty, I will read you the part -- part of the  answer that your daughter gave to the interrogatory.  The Question 58 reads:  "Does your house..." 1393  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35 THE  COURT  36  37 MR.  GRANT  3 8 MR.  PLANT  39  40  A  41 MR.  PLANT  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  And that's the House of Hanamuxw.  Yes.  "...claim ownership of or jurisdiction over any  particular territory?"  And the answer was:  "Yes."  And then Question 59.  "If so; sub C, what are the boundaries of your  House's territory?  And the answer that was given in part was:  "The approximate boundaries of one of Hanamuxw'  territories is set out on the map attached as  Schedule C."  And I will refer to the balance of the answer given  in a few minutes.  So this map was described by your  daughter as a representation of the approximate  boundaries of one of Hanamuxw' territories, do you  understand what I am saying?  Yes.  Now, I would like you to look in the area of the  elbow, so to speak, of the territory and confirm for  me --  I can't read map.  I am not asking you to read a map, I want you to  read a word.  And there's a word there and it's wii  lo'op.  Do you see that?  Yes.  And that's right smack on the boundary line on that  map, isn't it?  Yes.  And that's wrong, isn't it?  It must be wrong.  It is wrong, isn't it?  You say it's wrong  because --  No, I didn't say it was wrong.  Isn't this an argument, Mr. Plant, whether it's  wrong or not?  I think the document speaks for itself, my lord.  I just wanted to confirm the witness' evidence that  wii lo'op belongs to the Frog?  Yes.  Mrs. Ryan, have you ever heard of Charles Mark?  Yes.  And was he a Guxsan person?  Yes.  He died a long time ago, didn't he?  Yes. 1394  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  PLANT  10  THE  COURT  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  PLANT  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  PLANT  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  THE  COURT  47  A  Did he have a name, a Gitksan name?  Yes.  Charles Mark?  I beg your pardon?  Yes.  Peter Mark's brother.  Charles Mark was  Guxsan.  He was in Guxsan's House?  Yes.  Have we got the name?  I beg your pardon?  I wasn't sure whether she was giving me a Gitksan  name or whether she was saying Charles Mark again.  Charles Mark was in Guxsan's House?  Yes.  And did he have a Gitksan name?  Well, I can't remember his name.  I know he has got  a name, but I think it's -- the name was --  Well, it doesn't matter for my purposes.  It doesn't matter for mine.  I just wanted to know if she had --  If you would like to answer the question, please do,  but I am happy with your evidence that he had a  Gitksan name.  I don't need to know what it is.  He did have a name, but I can't remember.  There is  too many names and I can't remember which one or  maybe Amayam.  There is a lot of names in that house  and I can't remember which name he had before he  died.  He may have had more than one name during his life?  Yes, yes.  Did he live in Kitsequkla?  Yes.  And you've already told us that you heard of Mr.  Barbeau.  Do you remember Barbeau?  Yes, I seen that man.  You've seen him?  Yes.  He came to Kitsequkla?  Yes.  They travelled all the way to Skeena River to  Giga ga'as at that time.  That was Mr. Barbeau who travelled up there?  Yes.  I want to read you --  Well, I didn't want to hear his writing.  Just bear with us for a few minutes, please.  Well, sometimes he made it up, what he write it 1  2 MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  1395  down.  Well, let's find out if you agree or disagree with  that.  Well, I didn't go with him, you know.  I stayed in  Kitsequkla at that time.  I can't -- you know, I was  young at that time.  What I want to read you is something that Mr.  Barbeau took in the way of notes after he spoke with  Charles Mark.  Yeah.  All right.  And I am told -- or I understand that  Charles Mark spoke to Mr. Barbeau --  Yes.  -- about the territories of Kitsequkla?  Yeah.  In about 1923.  Yes.  You would have been about eight years old then,  wouldn't you?  Yes.  And I -- one of the things that these notes say is  this:  "Houses of Haak asxw and Gwagl'lo --"  Gwagl'lo at --  Well, just listen to what I am reading for a moment.  And I apologize for my mispronunciation.  Yes.  "Houses of Haak asxw and Gwagl'lo.  They both  have the same hunting grounds and they live  in the same hunting house."  Was that true?  They do.  And they have their houses, their own  houses.  Did they both have the same hunting grounds?  Yes.  And then the note says this:  "Hunting ground coming near Skeena River, then  goes towards Kitsequkla, but does not reach  it.  Those of Hanamuxw and Haak asxw are only  about two miles apart.  They don't come  together.  Nobody uses the strip between or  has any right.  No one can go and hunt or  camp there.  No one can go between these  gaps . "  Do you understand that?  Yes.  And is that true? 1396  That's true.  I want to be sure that you understood everything  that I said.  Yes, I understand what you are saying because you  answered the names that Simgigyet names, Chief  names.  Mool'xan and Gwagl'lo and Hanamuxw.  Now, just so that there is no misunderstanding, I am  going to suggest to you that what this passage means  is that this territory or the territories of  Hanamuxw or Haak asxw were about two miles apart  from each other?  That's what they say.  I mentioned the creeks  yesterday and today, that's the boundary line of  Hanamuxw.  And you heard me about the Mool'xan when  they go hunting.  They come across Hanamuxw' hunting  ground.  Right.  And they go to Copper River.  I am not asking you about Mool'xan's trips through  Hanamuxw' territory.  What I want you to tell me is  whether you agree that the two territories of  Hanamuxw and Haak asxw don't come together.  There  is a gap between them and no one is allowed to go  there because the territory didn't belong to  anybody.  And if you would be comfortable -- more  comfortable with having the assistance of the  interpreter on that question, please ask.  Exactly what that man said.  You agree with what that man said?  Yes.  31 THE COURT:  I haven't got a spelling for Haak asxw.  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's number 26 on the list of Plaintiffs.  33 THE COURT:  How is it spelled?  34 THE TRANSLATOR:  H-A-A-K A-S-X-W.  Yes, it's number 26.  35 THE COURT:  I am trying to find it on this map.  All right.  Unfortunately there is a dialogue going on between  Mrs. Ryan and the interpreter.  Yes.  And I think it's only fair that we find out  what was said.  :  She asked if she was correct and I said I don't  know.  I asked if there was a gap between her land  and her territory and the territory of Haak asxw and  she said that Mool'xan used to cross her land to get  to his land.  Can you give me a reference to what you read from  Mr. Barbeau?  The reference to the document?  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  36  MR. PLANT:  37  38  THE COURT:  39  40  INTERPRETER  41  42  43  44  45  THE COURT:  46  47  MR. PLANT: 1397  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  PLANT  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  PLANT  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  PLANT  9  THE  COURT  10  11  12  13  14  MR.  PLANT  15  THE  COURT  16  17  MR.  PLANT  18  THE  COURT  19  20  MR.  PLANT  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  PLANT  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  PLANT  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  THE  COURT  40  THE  TRANS  41  THE  COURT  42  THE  TRANS  43  THE  COURT  44  45  MR.  PLANT  46  47  Yes, from which you were reading?  Yes, the reference number which is taken from an  inventory of the files is B stroke -- or B-F63.7  Barbeau/Beynon file and I was reading from page 5.  B-A-Y-N-A-N?  B-E-Y-N-O-N.  Thank you.  And Barbeau is B-A-R-B-E-A-U.  Yes.  I am sorry to be intruding this way, but to  make any sense of it and to follow it as it's going  along, I have to know where the property of Haak  asxw is to know where the gap would be.  And I can't  find that name on the map I am looking at.  :  Well, my lord --  :  Maybe it's the other property, is it?  I don't see  it on a quick examination.  :  I beg your pardon?  :  I don't see it on a quick examination of map number  2 or map number 1.  :  That may be a problem with both of those maps, my  lord.  :  All right.  :  It may have been Mr. Mark's position that the  territories did come together within two miles of  each other at some point.  :  All right.  Mrs. Ryan, have you ever heard of a place called  miinhl dekwat?  Miinhl dekwat?  Yes.  Is that --  Have you ever heard of that place?  Miinhl dekwat?  Miinhl dekwat.  I will spell it and someone else can  try and pronounce it.  M-I-I-N-H-L, new word,  D-E-K-W-I-T.  That's Gwagl'lo.  :  I am sorry, the number?  LATOR:  17.  Number 17 on the Plaintiff's List.  :  I've got the wrong list.  17 I have is Gwagl'lo.  LATOR:  That's what she said.  :   Well, is there a number for the name or location  that Mr. Plant just spelled?  :  I can identify it for your Lordship on Hanamuxw'  number 1 map with the label at the bottom.  It's  just to the right of the extreme upper portion of 139?  1  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  PLANT  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  MR.  PLANT  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  PLANT  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  the Hanamuxw' territory.  If your Lordship goes to  the top of Hanamuxw' territory as described on that  map.  Yeah.  Goes to the right about two inches.  What is it, a stream?  What is miinhl dekwit?  Miinhl dekwit is a little, little mountain.  But  it's round.  It sit by itself.  Miinhl dekwit they  call it.  I see.  What would that word mean in English?  Miinhl dekwit, miinhl skanist, at the foot of the  mountain, miinhl dekwit.  And you told me earlier that Haas asxw and Gwagl'lo  shared the same hunting ground?  Yes.  Do you know if that hunting ground included miinhl  dekwit?  Yes, I seen that once.  My lord, it may be a matter of argument later, but  that is in the area on my reading of the notes which  the informant was referring to when he is describing  the existence of gaps.  All right.  Yes.  And I am not saying that that is so.  I hope that is  something we will find out more about later.  Mrs. Ryan --  Yes.  Magnus Turner is a Chief in Kitsequkla, isn't he?  Yes.  Is Wiigyet an -- Wiigyet is one of the 5 Brothers?  Yes.  And sometimes Wiigyet is called the Head Chief of  Kitsequkla, isn't he?  He is Head Chief.  What did your grandmother tell you about Wiigyet's  territory?  Well, they mention the -- at the same place, but  it's a little different, you know.  We go to our own  and the other would go to their own.  They are close  together.  And I can't -- I can't tell you, but the  Chief knows.  If I were to suggest to you -- well, I will do it  this way.  I suggest that Wiigyet never had his own 1399  1  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  MR.  GRANT  11  MR.  PLANT  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  THE  COURT  38  A  39  THE  COURT  40  A  41  THE  COURT  42  A  43  THE  COURT  44  A  45  THE  COURT  46  A  47  THE  COURT  territory, but always had to use somebody else's  territory; is that correct?  You ask so many I can't answer all of them because  too many, you too many questions.  Well, answer this one --  Well, I can't, but I know Wiigyet go there and trap  there.  Am I stirring trouble up again?  Is that the problem  with the question?  Well, my lord --  Well —  Well, what's wrong with that, Mr. Grant?  Well, I am just -- I am just -- if the witness has  expressed a concern about answering I have seen no  problem --  Witnesses can't refuse to answer questions, Mr.  Grant.  I am not saying the witness refuses to answer, it's  my friend who is pushing everything into one reason.  Well, in cross-examination one is allowed to suggest  answers.  It seems to me that the cross-examination  is unobjectionable unless some ground can be  suggested other than what I have heard.  It's not a matter of suggestion, Your Honour, it's a  matter of the tone of voice and I just ask --  Oh, Mr. Grant, a trial is not a tea party.  I agree.  We have seen lots of evidence of that on both sides,  so I see nothing wrong with the question.  But now  that we have stopped and we have been diverted, can  I go back and ask the witness a question.  A moment  ago you were asked, Mrs. Ryan, about what your  grandmother said about the territory of Wiigyet and  I have a note that you said that his territory was  close together?  Yes.  Close together with what or with whom?  All of them, their neighbours.  With the 5 Brothers?  Yes, yes, yes.  Or with Hanamuxw?  Yes.  Not both.  Wiigyet and Xsgogimlaxha and Guxsan and Hanamuxw.  Close together with the 3 Brothers?  Yes.  All right. 1400  PLANT:  Q  A  1 MR.  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17 MR.  18 MR.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33 INTERPRETER  Q  A  Q  GRANT:  PLANT:  A  Q  34  35  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Mrs. Ryan, I will ask you again, putting it to you  as a suggestion, and my suggestion is that Wiigyet  didn't have his own territory, but he had to use the  territories of other people?  I can't say that.  They always go there.  Like they  brothers, hey.  They use -- they ask permission to  each other's, that's the reason why they always go  there.  Did Wiigyet have his own territory?  Yes, yes, yes.  Now, Mrs. Ryan, could you turn to Question 63 in the  interrogatories which we've been referring to.  Okay.  I will leave you and Mr. Grant can hold it  there.  I actually want you to look at Question 62  first.  Are you going to read those out to her?  I will read them out, yes.  Question 62.  If you  have that, Mrs. Ryan, it reads:  "Does your House..."  And that's the House of Hanamuxw,  "...possess any documentary evidence of  ownership of thisterritory?"  A  Yes."  Question 63:  "If so, what are the documents?"  Answer:  "The feast books of our House and our  totem poles."  Yes.  What are the feast books that the House of Hanamuxw'  possesses, to your knowledge?  :  "Joan" she said.  Joan have one in Prince Rupert.  I can't have -- I  don't have it here.  Are there feast books in Prince Rupert?  Yes, she is the one that holding the book.  Is there a feast book for the feast --  Yes, yes.  At which --  Yes, Hanamuxw.  Which feast is there a feast book for?  Which feast  is --  I know you answer, but I can't answer it right away.  Then by all means, take your time to think about it.  Well, that's Hanamuxw' book, that's his own -- 1401  1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  THE  COURT  8  9  10  A  11  THE  COURT  12  13  A  14  THE  COURT  15  16  A  17  THE  COURT  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  21  A  22  THE  COURT  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  that's her own.  Yes.  And do you know what book it is that she has?  Well, I can't answer you.  I said that belongs to  her, you know.  What is it that belongs to her, Mrs. Ryan?  She —  I think we will adjourn for lunch, Mr. Plant.  Mrs.  Ryan -- Mrs. Ryan, I have to say something to you  that I am sorry I have to bring up.  That's all right.  But I have to conduct this trial according to  certain rules.  Yes.  You have your laws and I have mine.  And the lawyers  have laws amongst themselves --  Yes.  -- as to how they will conduct a trial.  Yes.  Now, you were examined by Mr. Grant for four and a  half days.  Yes.  And so far as I can recall, you answered his  questions as best you could and I thought you did a  very credible job.  Now, the law that I have to  apply does not permit me to allow a witness to  decide which questions she will answer and which  ones she will not.  And for that reason I sense  that -- that you are attempting to decide for  yourself which questions you will answer and which  ones you will not.  And then I have to correct you  and that takes on the appearance of being unfair to  you.  I think that may be unfair to me.  Maybe we  are being unfair to each other.  But I have to say again that when a witness  presents himself and takes the box and answers  questions by the lawyer who calls him to the witness  stand, then the witness must answer questions from  the other lawyers as well.  I hope we won't have any  more of that kind of difficulty this afternoon.  We  will adjourn now until 2 o'clock, please. 1402  1 REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL 2:00)  3  4  5  6  7 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  8 a true and accurate transcript of the  9 proceedings herein, transcribed to  10 the best of my skill and ability.  11  12  13  14  15 LISA REID, Official Reporter  16 United Reporting Service Ltd.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1403  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT AT 2:00)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Witness, I remind you you are  still under oath.  THE COURT:  Mr. Plant?  CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Mrs. Ryan, which feast books does Joan, your  daughter, have in her possession?  Nineteen eighty-seven, 19 -- I can't -- I get lost.  I am sorry I didn't answer.  Does she have a feast book for a feast --  Yes, yes.  Please let me finish the question.  Does she have a  feast book for a feast that was held this year?  37?  MR.  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT:  MR.  MR.  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT:  PLANT:  Q  Nineteen eighty-six,  Yes?  That's '86.  Nineteen eighty-six?  Fall.  Does she have any other feast books to your  knowledge?  No, just one.  My lord, I just want to advise the court and my  friend.  In light of the fact that that matter came  up at the very end of yesterday, I have arranged for  someone to be contacting Miss Joan Ryan, and I am  endeavouring to find out exactly what it is and  getting it back here, and I just want to advise the  court of that.  I did that over the lunch hour.  Now, Mrs. Ryan, I have some questions about the  Staax hait territory near Carnaby?  Staax hait.  Staax hait, thank you.  There are white people who  live on that territory, aren't there?  Yes.  And in your evidence in chief, you said that Westar  is building a sawmill there?  Yes.  Westar already has a sawmill near Hazelton?  Yes.  Is that sawmill on your territory?  Yes.  Which one?  The sawmill that Westar already has.  Westar has had 1404  1 a sawmill for a long time, hasn't it?  2 A    Yeah, in south town.  3 Q    South town, is that what you said?  4 A    Right.  5 THE INTERPRETER:  Mm-hmm.  6 A    Yeah.  South Hazelton?  Yes.  No, I am sorry.  Her answer was south town, my lord, which is a  colloquial version of south Hazelton.  Exactly.  When you say south town, you mean south  Hazelton?  Yes, yes.  Is that mill -- I am talking about the mill that's  been there for a long time?  Yes.  Is that mill also on Gwaans' territory?  Yes.  Are there Gitksan people who work at that sawmill?  Just a few.  And are there Gitksan people who work on the  construction of the new mill?  I don't know.  The Gitksan people who work at the old mill, the one  that's been there for awhile --  Just a few.  Do they go onto your territory with your permission?  No.  Does that mean that, in Gitksan law, they are  trespassers?  Yes.  Who is it in Gitksan law who could give that  permission, the permission that would be necessary  for them to come on the land without trespassing?  Well, they are supposed to ask the owners before  they build the mill there.  Well, I am talking about -- there are people who go  on that territory?  They asked permission to go in my hunting ground if  they needed to go there, and I give them permission  to go there.  You are the person that gives the permission?  Yes, or Hanamuxw.  I am sorry, did she say "or I don't know"?  Or Hanamuxw.  7  THE  COURT  8  A  9  MR.  PLANT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  PLANT 1405  1 THE  COURT  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 MR.  PLANT  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  I am sorry, slightly different.  I am not sure, Mr.  Plant, that she's answered your question about the  permission to persons who work on the mill.  I think  her answer, when you asked about permission, was  that they should have asked the owner's permission  before they built the mill which indicates to me she  was talking about the mill itself rather than the  people that worked there.  Yes.  I don't think she answered the question  either, my lord.  You told me that there is just a  few people, Gitksan people, who work at the mill?  Yes.  And you said that they are trespassing on your  property, aren't they, by working at that existing  mill?  You talking about the new mill?  No.  I am talking about the old mill?  Okay.  The old mill is not very far from -- what's  the name of that lake?  Seeley Lake.  That's where the old mill is?  Yes.  Is that --  On railway side.  That's -- is that on your territory?  No, that's Spookw's.  So it is just a new mill?  You talking about the new mill?  And that mill is on your territory?  Yes.  And are there Gitksan people who work building the  new mill?  Well, I never see that new mill.  I just heard about  it.  You have never seen the new mill?  No.  And you don't know who's working on it?  It is way out from the highway on the other side of  railway but I didn't see.  I used to come to  Hazelton but I didn't see the mill there.  One of  these days I will go there and see.  And you don't know who's working on that mill?  No, no, I don't -- I can't answer you question.  I beg your pardon?  I can't answer you question.  Now, we have talked about the highway that runs  through that territory? 1406  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  2 5 MR.  GRANT  2 6 THE  COURT  2 7 MR.  GRANT  28  2 9 MR.  PLANT  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes.  And I am talking again about the Staax hait  territory?  Yeah.  There is a gravel pit by the highway, isn't there?  Yes.  And has that been there for a long time?  Long time when they build the highway, the gravel  pit was there.  And can you tell me who some of the white people are  who live on your territory, the Staax hait  territory?  A lot of people there.  I know Mr. Cummings is a  farmer.  Has he been a farmer there for a long time?  Yes.  Yes.  Anyone else?  Well, I believe Watson was there, Lawrence Watson.  Is he still there?  Yeah.  So far as you know?  (Nod)  And Peter Grant also has land on --  Yes.  I assure the Court I am not a farmer, my lord.  Well, she didn't say you were, Mr. Grant.  The question was, are there farmers there, and I can  assure the Court I am not one of the farmers.  Does Mr. Grant have your permission to be on that  land?  Yes.  How did he obtain that permission?  Well, he came to my place and ask me.  And you had a conversation?  Yeah -- no,no.  He asked you?  Yeah.  And you gave him the permission?  Yes.  Is there anything in writing?  No.  Have you given permission to the Cummings family or  Watson family?  No, no.  No one come to my place but Mr. Grant did.  Do you know Douglas Abel?  Is that name familiar to  you?  Douglas Abel, do you know someone by that 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  1407  name?  No.  I am told that Douglas Abel owns land by the Skeena  River on your territory, Staax hait.  Do you know  anything about that?  Well, lot of white people there but I didn't ask  their names but I know they were there.  I am also told that the land where -- which Mr. Abel  owns was first granted before you were born to  someone named John Blume.  Did you ever know anyone  by that name?  That owns that Eat More Lamb farm.  I don't know the name of the farm.  Does the name  John Blume ring any bells with you?  Lot of people there, you know.  What you are telling me really is you can't  remember?  On this side, the side of railway, I guess that man  owns the land there.  Which man?  That you talking about.  Mr. Blume or Mr. Abel?  Yes, I think so.  Which one?  Well, I didn't ask the names but they come to use my  property.  Do you know Raymond Jones?  Yes.  That's Moses Jones, the land there.  Who's Moses Jones?  That's Ray Jones' dad.  And is Moses Jones a Gitksan person?  Yes.  And Raymond is his son?  Yes.  And Raymond lives on Moses' land?  Yes.  And that land is on Gwaans' territory?  Yes.  What clan is Raymond?  Raymond?  Yes, he is a Giskaast or Frog?  He is from Xsgogim Laxha House.  And what clan was his father Moses?  He is a Frog.  And I think you told me yesterday that Raymond Jones  was on the Kitsequkla band council at one time?  Yes, yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  3 8 MR.  GRANT  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  1408  Does he live on that land with your permission?  No.  So in Gitksan law, is he a trespasser?  Yes.  Do you know Gary Adams?  No.  I am told that he has land on your territory and  that he is logging on your territory and, again, I  am referring to Staax hait?  Yes.  Do you know anything about that?  Well, I heard about it but I didn't go and ask  around.  You haven't been up to see whether there is any  logging going on yet?  Oh, yes, I know that.  How do you know that?  Well, the Forest write a letter to my son, Jimmy  Ryan, and they ask to log that place, and this man  was really looking forward to answer the letter but  we said no, we don't allow to cut the logs there.  Remember when that letter was sent?  I think it's May — in May.  Just last month?  First week in May.  Have you gone up above the railway to have a look?  No.  I can't travel because my leg is not well yet.  I can't walk around too much.  Have you sent anybody up to have a look?  Well, he's supposed to go up there but he was in --  down the Coast right now so --  Who's this, Jimmy?  Jimmy, yeah.  He works in Cassiar Cannery, you know,  at camp there.  There is no cannery there anymore  but they were -- the fisherman was camping there.  Is that where he is now?  Yes.  My lord, my friend is pausing.  I have been  exchanging lists of documents and there was a list  that was delivered to us a few days ago and my  friend indicated there was certain documents he was  referring to.  He is just asking questions with  respect to former holders of -- specifically about  Mr. Blume who apparently was an older holder.  I  just wonder if that's in his list of documents.  If  he could out -- either now or outside of court  advise me of what documents he is referring to 1409  THE  MR.  THE  7 MR.  8  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  14 THE  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 MR.  32  33 MR.  34 THE  35  3 6 MR.  37 MR.  3 8 MR.  39  40  41  42  43  4 4 MR.  45 THE  46  47 THE  COURT:  PLANT:  COURT:  PLANT:  Q  A  PLANT:  because there is quite a large number and I'd like  to be able to review those specific documents.  Can you assist Mr. Grant in that regard, Mr. Plant?  I can't right now but I will endeavour to do so  after court, my lord.  Thank you.  Talking about the white people that are living on  your territory like the Cummings and the Watsons and  so on.  Does the land that they live on belong to  Gwaans or to them?  Yes.  Well, don't have Gwaans.  I didn't understand your answer?  INTERPRETER:  PLANT:  They don't consider Gwaans, the white people.  Q    I wasn't asking you about them.  I am asking you  about you as Gwaans.  Does that land, the land that  Mr. Cummings lives on and Mr. Watson owns, does that  land belong to you?  A    Yes.  Q    It doesn't belong to the Cummings or the Watsons?  A    No.  Q    Where is T'am lax amit?  A   Across the river.  Q    Across the river from where?  Across which river?  A    Hazelton.  Q    Across the Skeena, Xsan River from Hazelton.  Is it  right across the Skeena from Hazelton?  A    I will tell you.  You gonna come with me?  I take  you and show you the place.  PLANT:  Well, if Mr. Grant would allow me, I would be  pleased to go.  GRANT:  We can arrange for that, my lord.  COURT:  Well, any time you want after court hours you are  welcome to go.  PLANT:  I wasn't proposing --  GRANT:  Could take the Court as well if you wish, my lord.  PLANT:  Q    I wasn't proposing a field trip.  Could you describe  the location of it for me now, though, please?  Is  it directly across the Skeena from where the village  of old Hazelton is?  A    Yes.  PLANT:  Does it go up and down?  INTERPRETER:  She is dry.  A    My mouth is so dry.  COURT:  Please get her a drink of water. 1410  1 MR. GRANT: My lord, I just wonder — I think that she may have  2 been in the middle of the answer.  I wonder if my  3 friend --  4 MR. PLANT: Well, if she was, did she give an answer partly in  5 Gitksan that should be translated?  6 THE INTERPRETER:  It is a little bit down river from Hazelton  7 across Seeley Lake.  8 MR. PLANT:  9 Q Across?  10 A Yes.  That's way the old village is, T'am lax amit.  11 Q It is across the Skeena from where Seeley Lake is?  12 A Yes.  13 Q There is a park at Seeley Lake, isn't there?  14 A I never go there, can't answer.  15 Q Is there a -- think again about your territory,  16 Staax hait.  Is there an electric power transmission  17 line that goes across that territory?  18 A You talking about power line?  19 Q Yes?  20 A It is the power lines on a highway.  Was that right?  21 Q Yeah, right through your territory?  22 A Yes.  23 Q Now, Mrs. Ryan, I have some questions about fishing  24 sites.  You remember giving evidence about fishing  25 sites a few days ago?  26 A Yes.  27 Q And it was your Grandmother who taught you the  28 locations of those sites?  29 A Yes.  30 Q Did anyone else teach you the locations of fishing  31 sites?  32 A No, no, just her.  33 Q When did your Grandmother, and I am referring to  34 Fanny Johnson, when did she die?  35 A Nineteen thirty-five.  36 Q How did she teach you about the fishing sites?  37 A Well, tell me every day and that's how I know.  38 Q She told you about them?  39 A And I mentioned the owners, the chief's name that I  4 0 mentioned.  41 Q And did she teach you them?  42 A Yes.  43 Q Do all of the head chiefs have fishing sites?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Now, one of the sites that you told us about that  46 belongs to the Kitsequkla chiefs is An gwadixsxw?  47 A Frogs. 1411  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  4 3 MR.  GRANT  4 4 MR.  PLANT  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Duubisxw is number 6, and An gwadixsxw is number  349.  Who's the older of the name Duubisxw?  Evelyn Johnson.  And she is in the Frog clan?  Yes.  Does she have her own House?  Yes.  She is the Head Chief of --  Yes.  Is Duubisxw's House different from Ernest Hyzims'  House?  Yes.  Do they have different territories?  No.  They own the same where Hanamuxw's hunting  ground, the back of the village.  And do they share a hunting ground?  Yes.  Do they also share the fishing site An gwadixsxw?  Gwagl'lo got their own fishing site, and Mool'xan  got their own fishing site, and "Wiis T'is got their  own fishing site, and Duubisxw got their own fishing  site?  Was it clear?  Yes.  But I want to ask you this:  Does the fishing  site belong to the Chief or to the House?  Yes.  Well, listen, because the question was intended to  find out if it is one or the other and it may be  both.  Does the fishing site belong to the Chief or  to the House?  The Chief and the House.  So it belongs to the Chief as part of the House?  Yes.  In the case of Duubisxw and that fishing site and An  gwadixsxw, number 349, that belongs to Evelyn  Johnson --  Yes, and --  As part --  You didn't mention the other where the smokehouse  is, Gwin xts'aa'lixsxw belongs to Duubisxw.  She has another place?  Yes, that's where the smoke House is, Gwin  xts'aa'lixsxw.  3 63, my lord.  And the fishing site itself An gwadixsxw?  Yes.  That belongs to Duubisxw? 1412  1 A Yes.  2 Q I think I have already asked you about David Milton  3 who died a year or so ago?  4 A No, no.  5 Q No, I haven't —  6 A David Milton is still alive.  7 Q He is still alive, excuse me.  Does he hold the name  8 Ts'aa'oolst?  9 A David Milton was Ts'aa'oolst.  That's his chief  10 name, Ts'aa'oolst, in Guxsan's House, and Mool'xan  11 in Haak asxw, Mool'xan got their own House in Haak  12 asxw, and Gwagl'lo, and Wiis T'is and Gasbgabaxs and  13 and Duubisxw.  14 Q And those are the Frog --  15 A Yes.  16 Q Those are the Frog Houses.  Well, David Milton had  17 the name Ts'aa'oolst?  18 A Ts'aa'oolst.  19 Q Ts'aa'oolst.  Does he have his own House?  20 A No, Guxsan's House.  21 Q That's part of Guxsan's House.  Now, you also told  22 us about the fishing sites Kitwanga or Kitwangax?  23 A Kitwangax.  24 Q One of the sites that you told us about was given  25 the number 360, and I am not going to try and  26 pronounce it.  Perhaps the Interpreter --  27 THE INTERPRETER:  Diphl gwin gaak?  2 8 A Oh, Diphl gwin gaak, Twam ne'ex.  2 9 MR. PLANT:  30 Q I beg your pardon?  31 A Twam ne'ex.  Twam ne'ex.  32 Q What is that, the name of the owner?  33 A Yes.  34 MR. PLANT: Can I have the spelling of that?  35 THE TRANSLATOR:  Twam ne'ex, T-w-a-m space n-e-'-e-x underline.  3 6 MR. PLANT:  37 Q And is Twam ne'ex a chief in Haalus' House?  38 A Yes.  39 Q Now, you also told us about the fishing site Lax an  4 0 ixw?  41 A Right across the Kitwangax bridge on the Village  42 side.  43 Q It is on the Village side?  44 A Yes.  45 Q And when you say the Village, you mean the village  46 of Kitwangax?  47 A Yes. 1413  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  MR.  PLANT  6  THE  COURT  7  8  MR.  PLANT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  Q  14  A  15  MR.  PLANT  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  PLANT  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  PLANT  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  PLANT  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  PLANT  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  PLANT  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  PLANT  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  40  MR.  PLANT  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  THE  COURT  46  47  Is it at the mouth of the Kitwangax?  Yes.  That spelling?  That's what they call the creek.  I don't have the number for that.  Do you have a number for the site you are talking  about?  I don't have a number for the creek.  It is right on the map, my lord.  It is the name  above Kitwanga River on the map which was Exhibit  31, I believe.  Xsi T'ax?  That's what the Gitksan call lake, Xsi T'ax.  And does your lordship have that in the upper  right-hand corner?  I am not sure I am even on the right map.  I am looking at the Kitwangax fishing site map.  Yes, I have that.  Roughly speaking, the upper right-hand corner.  Mr.  Grant marked in red the bridge.  Yes.  I have the bridge.  In Kitwanga, and just above that river there X-s-i  space T'-a-x underlined, and then in brackets  underneath it, it says (Kitwanga River).  Yes, I have that.  Does your lordship have the X-s-i-T'-a-x underline?  It is just on the other side of the river in  somewhat larger letters.  What is the spelling again?  X-s-i space T'-a-x underline.  Another way of  getting to it would be, if your lordship can see the  name in faint letters, Sakxum higookx?  Yes, I have that.  Well, the X in Sakxum higookx, the end of that name  is just about half an inch above the T in the name  of the river if your lordship went down.  I have these all numbered.  Does it not have a  number?  No, this doesn't, and I am not particularly  concerned with the location.  I am only trying to  assist your lordship.  Well, is it L-a-x-a-n-i-x-w?  No L-a -- yes.  Yes.  All right, I have that one.  It is at the  confluence of the Kitwanga River and the Skeena  River. 1414  1  MR.  PLANT  2  Q  3  4  A  5  MR.  PLANT  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  PLANT  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  MR.  PLANT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  MR.  PLANT  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Yes, my lord, thank you.  All right.  Now, when you  gave evidence about Lax an ixw --  Lax an ixw.  Mr. Grant asked you at volume 19 page 1222 of the  transcript, line 44:  "Q  Who owns that site?  And your answer was:  "A  Nobody owns it but of -- but the  fisherman.  The fisherman use it for  line".  What was the answer, fisherman use it for --  Well, the transcript says line, 1-i-n-e.  Who are  the fisherman who use this place?  Are they Gitksan  fisherman?  No, amxsi waa.  They are white man.  Does this -- is this place a  fishing site that belongs to a Gitksan Chief?  Lax an ixw?  Yes?  Well, it belongs to the Village, the Village.  Which village?  Kitwangax.  Does that mean that anyone in the Village could go  to fish there?  My son always go there.  Which son was that?  Jimmy Ryan.  Now, you told us about a place called Gis k'a hoixs?  Gis k'a hoixs.  I have that as G-i-s space k'-a space h-o-i-x-s.  372.  Thank you.  That's one of the fishing sites of  Hak'w?  Hak'w, yeah.  There is a village there long time  ago.  That was what I wanted to ask you about.  You said  there was a village there a long time ago?  Yes.  Is there still a village there?  No, no. 1415  1 Q    Was anyone living there when you were a little girl?  2 A    No.  3 Q    And there was another place that you said there was  4 a village at.  I want to see if I can find it?  5 A    Xsi gin k'at.  6 Q    Yes.  That's in the extreme lower left-hand corner  7 of the map, my lord.  It is the last fishing site  8 down the river, and was that village -- were there  9 people living there when you were a little girl?  10 A No.  11 Q So that village was an old village?  12 A Yes.  13 Q Did your Grandmother tell you about that village?  14 A Yes.  15 Q She said there were Eagles who live there?  16 A Ligii 'Niihla.  She owns -- that chief owns that  17 place.  18 MR. PLANT:  May I have the spelling of that?  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  L-i-g-i-i space 'N-i-i-h-1-a.  2 0 MR. PLANT:  21 Q Was he a Gitksan Chief?  22 A Yes.  23 Q Is there someone who holds that name today?  24 A Vernon Smith holds the name now.  25 Q Vernon Smith also holds the name, Sakxum higookx?  26 A Sakxum higookx.  27 MR. PLANT:  That should be one of the names of the plaintiffs,  2 8 my lord.  I don't have the number at hand.  29 THE TRANSLATOR:  It is number 56.  30 THE COURT:  What's his other name?  31 THE TRANSLATOR:  Sakxum higookx.  He is number 56.  32 MR. PLANT:  Do you know someone named Rod Johnson, Rod Johnson?  Roger Johnson?  Well, I have it as Rod Johnson?  I know Roger Johnson.  Is Roger Johnson a Gitksan?  Yes.  Kitsequkla?  Yes.  'Nii t'am Lax ooxs.  That's his chief name.  Which House is that a name in?  He's got his own House.  What's the clan?  Giskaast.  Is it a name in -- is it a Kitsequkla name?  Yes.  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A 1416  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27 THE  2 8 MR.  29  30  31  32  33  34  35 THE  36  37 MR.  38 THE  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  A  PLANT  Q  Q  A  Q  Now, do you know the name Sanoss?  Sanoss.  That's Frog clan.  Yes?  It is in Duubisxw's House.  In which House, please?  Duubisxw's House.  Duubisxw is number 6.  Sanoss is S-a-n-o-s-s.  Did Sanoss ever have his own House?  The same House as Duubisxw.  Does Sanoss have a seat at the head table in the  Feast Hall?  A    Well, they have their own seat like Giskaast do.  Q    Well, the frogs have their own seats, don't they?  A    Yes.  Q    And at the head table, does Sanoos have a seat?  A    Yes.  Q    Does Sanoos have his own fishing sites?  A    The same fishing site in Duubisxw.  Q    Who has that name Sanoos to your knowledge?  A    Sanoss?  I think it is Roddy Johnson.  Q    Roddy Johnson?  A    Yes.  Q    Mrs. Ryan, have you ever heard of a document called  the Petition of Right?  A    Say it again, please?  I can't remember.  INTERPRETER:  What does it mean?  PLANT:  Well, let me ask you this:  Are you aware of the  fact that in 1983, about four years ago, there was a  claim made on behalf of the House of Hanamuxw and  other Houses of the Gitksan for rights in respect of  fishing sites on the Skeena?  If you'd like to have  the Interpreter's assistance with that question,  please do so.  INTERPRETER:  I didn't hear it myself but they must have  said it.  PLANT:  I must have said it?  INTERPRETER:  But they must have said it.  COURT:  PLANT:  Q  A  Oh, they must have said it.  Who do you mean by they?  Who is the they that must  have said it?  Well, a lot of things that are coming up in  Kitsequkla that didn't tell me the people there.  Maybe they did but I didn't know.  So maybe you were told about it but you don't know?  I am not trying to trick you, Mrs. Ryan; I just 1417  1  2  A  3 MR.  PLANT  4  5  6  7  8  9 MR.  GRANT  10  11  12  13 MR.  PLANT  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  wanted to find out if you know?  I can't remember.  You can't remember, thank you.  I'd ask that Exhibit  26 be put before the witness.  Exhibit 26, Mrs.  Ryan, is a document which has at the top of it  Petition of Right, and would you please look at that  and take your time and tell me if you have ever seen  that document before?  She is -- I will read -- she's asked me to read the  first line:  "To the Queen's most excellent Majesty"  is the beginning of the document.  I am not sure --  do you want her to read the document?  Well, I wanted to know whether she could -- if you  recognize the document, if you have ever seen it  before?  No.  Mrs. Ryan, do you know someone named Harry Daniels?  Yes, that's George Daniel's son.  Whose son?  George Daniel's son.  Is George Daniels a Gitksan person?  Yes.  And Harry, his son, is also?  Yes.  Your counsel, Mr. Grant, has provided me with a  document which as I understand it records an  interview that you had with Harry Daniels on  February 8, 1982?  Yes.  Now, have you ever talked with Harry Daniels about  Hanamuxw's fishing sites?  Yes.  One of the things that this document says, and I am  reading from page 3 of it, is this, and I am  quoting:  "A lot of our language is not used anymore.  The younger people don't speak it anymore."  Did you say that to Harry Daniels?  Yes, because he couldn't understand the word I use  to him.  You were --  That's the reason why I said it to him.  And you were using a Gitksan word?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  4 4 MR.  PLANT  4 5 MR.  GRANT  46  47  1418  And he didn't understand it?  Yes.  And do you know someone named Mike Morrell?  Yes.  And you talked with him about fishing sites before?  Lot of times.  Lots of times?  Yeah.  One of the things that your counsel has given me is  a record which, so far as I can understand it,  appears to be notes of an interview from October  1986, and it is entitled Second Interview Olive  Mulwayne.  Sometimes people call you Olive Mulwayne,  don't they?  Yes.  And Andy Clifton?  Yes.  Do you remember meeting with Mr. Morrell?  Yes.  And one of the things the notes said -- say, and I  am reading from page 4 of that part of the notes is  this :  "Change to nets, not during Olives' lifetime.  Olives' mother used trap."  Yes.  "Nets easier".  It was easier to fish with nets, wasn't it?  Yeah.  And the next thing the notes says is:  "Didn't have to tend them".  Is it true that fishing with nets was easier because  you didn't have to look after them?  Yes.  You could just leave them there in the river?  I take them out.  And then take them out to get the fish out?  Yes.  Thank you.  My lord, the first -- I believe my friend is moving  to another area.  I didn't want to interrupt what he  was saying but the first interview was an 1419  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  MR.  THE  GRANT:  COURT:  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT  PLANT  COURT  interview -- was a transcript translation on the  interview of Mr. Daniels, and the second one was one  of three interviews, the notes of Mr. Morrell.  I  would ask if my friend, in light of the fact that  he's referred to them, that those two interviews  will be reviewed first.  The transcript of those  interviews have been provided to the court and  should be marked as an exhibit.  Well, there is no reason why they should be marked  as an exhibit, Mr. Grant.  He hasn't -- the most  that could be put in was the parts he put to the  witness and that's all that he read into the  transcript.  There used to be a theory that said  that if you cross-examined a witness on a document,  the document went in, but that's no longer the law  and hasn't been for 25 years.  Well, before my time I would say.  Well, Mr. Justice Coady destroyed that theory of the  disability many, many years ago.  The view today is  that you can put a document in front of a witness,  refresh their memory, put the document away and then  ask them all you want about it and, even then, the  document doesn't go in.  But the part that Mr. Grant  has read to the witness certainly is in now because  he has read it into the record but there hasn't been  a sufficient use of the document to require the  whole document go in.  I will deal with it on re-direct.  Yes.  You can certainly do that, if they are  connected sufficiently with the passage that's been  read.  Yes.  That's what I mean, my lord.  I have a few questions about trapping, Mrs. Ryan.  I think, Mr. Plant, if we take a break, we are  half-way through the afternoon.  Perhaps we should  adjourn now. 1420  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned for  2 15 minutes.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A RECESS AT 2:55 P.M.)  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings herein, transcribed to  9 the best of my skill and ability.  10  11  12  13  14 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  15 United Reporting Service Ltd.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1421  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:15)  2 REGISTRAR:   Order in court.  3 THE COURT: Mr. Plant.  4  5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  Thank you, my lord.  6 Q Mrs. Ryan, to your knowledge, did Peter Milton have  7 a registered trap line?  8 A Yes.  9 Q And he held the name Gwaans?  10 A Yes.  11 Q And Jeffrey Johnson also had a registered trap line?  12 A Yes.  13 Q And you were one of the members of the company that  14 registered that line, were you not?  15 A Yes.  16 Q And to your knowledge are you still --  17 A Yes.  18 Q You are still on that trap line?  19 A (NOD)  20 Q You are nodding "yes"?  21 A Yes.  22 Q Did you participate with Jeffrey in the registration  23 of that trap line?  24 A What do you mean?  Oh, yes.  25 Q Would you tell me -- tell the court how that came  26 about that Jeffrey's trap line was registered or  27 that he registered a trap line?  28 A Came to -- we came to Smithers.  There is an office  29 here, Smithers.  In Smithers, that's where we went  30 in and Jeffrey --  31 Q Do you remember when that was?  32 A Well, that's — I think it's before 1930, before I  33 was married.  When Jeffrey was taking me with him  34 when he was at the hunting ground.  35 Q So you went with Jeffrey to Smithers?  36 A Yes, yes.  37 Q And —  38 A Because my brother died, you know, and he supposed  39 to go with Jeffrey.  And my brother died and I go  40 with him and Leonard Moore.  41 Q Leonard Moore also went?  42 A Yes.  43 Q Can you remember anymore about what happened when  44 you came to Smithers to see the game warden?  45 A Well, that's all I remember a long time -- it's a  4 6 long time.  47 Q Did you talk about where the trap line should be? 1422  1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  2 6 MR.  GRANT  27  2 8 MR.  PLANT  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes.  He was talking to that man that making the --  writing that register --  Jeffrey --  Yes.  I'm sorry, Jeffrey was talking to that man?  Yes.  And that man was the game warden?  Yes.  Do you remember his name?  No, I don't really go by the name.  But I know I  with him that time.  I was with him, Jeffrey  Johnson.  Do you remember if the game warden asked Jeffrey  what territory he wanted to register his trap line?  Yes, I heard them they were talking about the land  by Kitsequkla.  And do you remember what Jeffrey said?  Yes, I remember he mentioned the name of the creek  Xsu wii luu negwit and Xsinoontxwit.  Anything else?  Well, a lot of things happened about it that time.  And they talked about Gasila aatxwit too.  Talked about what?  Gasila aatxwit.  And what is that, is that a stream or --  It's 421 on the list.  It was referred to by the  witness this morning.  I am sorry, we talked about the territory they also  call Staax hait.  If I were -- let me suggest this,  that the game warden asked Jeffrey what the land was  that he wanted to register and Jeffrey told him?  Yes.  And then there was a registration form?  Yes.  You remember seeing a registration form?  Well, the last time I seen it at Kitsequkla band.  They registered because Jeffrey was out at the band,  you know, and I believe Joan was holding that  register now.  The last time you saw the form was the Kitsequkla  band?  Yes.  In the office?  Yes.  The -- Mr. Grant asked you quite a few questions  about the Feast in 1945, the pole raising Feast for 1423  Hanamuxw and the other Chiefs?  Yes.  Do you remember those questions?  Yes.  Do you remember the 1945 Feast?  Yes.  That was an important Feast, wasn't it?  Yes.  It was sort of after --  Did you --  I beg your pardon?  Do you remember Ska wok?  And was that story told at that feast?  Yes, Ska wok, that's a nax nok.  Yes.  And was that one of the nax nok that you told  us about here?  Well, that you asking me about it.  That's -- I am  the one that laying down on the floor at the Feast,  you know, before the Feast.  Yes.  The night before the Feast.  And you have already told us about --  Yes, yes.  -- what happened?  Yes.  That Feast went on for several days, didn't it?  Yes.  Would it be fair to say that that Feast was sort of  a cultural revival among the people of Kitsequkla?  Yes.  And Tom Campbell was at that Feast?  Yes.  He held the name Luutkudziiwas?  Luutkudziiwas, yeah.  35 MR. PLANT:  I don't have the number for that handy.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 44 on the plaintiff's list.  37 MR. PLANT:  He composed a song for that Feast, didn't he?  Yes.  And did you ever know someone named William Beynon?  Yes, I know him.  He was at that Feast too, wasn't he?  Yes.  And he made some notes?  Yes.  Have you ever seen them?  Well, the lady was from the university showed it to  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A 1424  1 me, Beynon's writing.  2 Q    Yes.  So you've seen -- you've seen some notebooks  3 before -- or at least some notes of this feast?  4 A    Yes.  5 Q    And you've told us that the Hanamuxw, Jeffrey  6 Johnson, spoke when he -- in the evening?  7 A    Yes, yes.  8 Q    And who held the name Spookw then?  9 A    Spookw, that's Johnson Alexander from Kispiox.  10 Q    Did he speak at the Feast?  11 A    Yes.  12 Q    I want to read to you from Mr. Beynon's notes and I  13 want you to ask me -- I want to ask you some  14 questions about this passage that I am going to read  15 to you.  It's from page 19 of one of notebooks.  The  16 Beynon file references BF428.1.  And I understand it  17 to be the notebook for the Feast of January 14,  18 1945.  And this is what Mr. Beynon wrote in his  19 notebook.  20  21 "Spookw of Gitanmaax spoke and this is  22 what he said.  Great Chief Hanamuxw, I have  23 heard what you said and I have seen myself  24 what you have done.  And I can say that while  25 I, like yourself, am young and am learning  26 more about my responsibilities, you have  27 acted before us -- you have set before us a  28 good example and your words of wisdom clearly  29 show that your training has also been good.  30 I shall tell all my people what you have done  31 and what you have said and they shall know  32 everything.  And they shall know everything.  33 We have not been as we should have been.  I  34 don't know why.  Perhaps we are now in a new  35 generation and I hope to imitate the white  36 man, but we do not.  And we have been letting  37 many of the important things of our rights go  38 just through neglect and want of proper  39 training.  So, Chief, what I have seen today  4 0 and heard I will remember and will endeavor  41 to also carry out my position as you are  42 yours."  43 Do you remember that?  44 A    Yes.  45 Q    That's what Johnson Alexander said at that Feast?  46 A    Yes.  47 Q    Now, you have told us about the pole that Earl 1425  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Muldoe is carving for Hanamuxw this year.  And  that's important to your House, isn't it?  A    Yes.  Q    Would it be fair to say that you have worked hard to  bring back -- bring respect back to Hanamuxw' name  among the Gitksan people?  A    Yes.  Q    And you are going to have a Feast when that pole is  put up, are not you?  A    Yes, yes.  Q    And you are going to do your best to do that Feast  just like the 1945 Feast?  A    Yes.  MR. PLANT:  Thank you very much, Mrs. Ryan.  I have no further  questions, my lord.  THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  Q    Could you show the witness Exhibit 26, please.  Mrs.  Ryan, that is the petition that you were shown a few  minutes ago?  A    Yes.  Q    And you had given evidence that you had not seen it  before?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, I am going to read to you two paragraphs from  this petition.  A    Yes.  Q    66 and 67, my lord.  At page 23.  "Your petitioners Hanamuxw, Sanoos, Haa'kasxw."  The third one is H-A-A apostrophe K-A-S-X-W.  "Gwaga'lo, Guxwsan and Gwis gyen, are  Hereditary Chiefs of the Village of Kitsequkla  and are hereinafter referred to as the  Kitsequkla Chiefs."  Now, all of those names are familiar to you?  A    Pardon me?  MR. GRANT:  The one you spelled was -- you should get someone to  pronounce it maybe.  A    Yes.  MR. MACAULAY:  Q    There are six names.  You can probably see them,  they are in capital letters.  Are those the 5  Brothers plus one more?  A    Well, I believe you mentioned Gwaga'lo, that's a  Frog, was it?  Q    Yes. 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  1426  Yes, that's Wiigyet and Guxwsan and Gwis gyen.  Sanoos, that's a frog.  Well, are those all Chiefs from Kitsequkla --  Yes.  -- those six people who are listed there?  Yes, some of them Frogs, Gwagl'o and Sanoos.  But are there other Chiefs at Kitsequkla in addition  to those six.  Are there more?  Five Chiefs, yes.  Is Wiigyet one of them?  Yes.  But Wiigyet doesn't appear --  No, no.  -- in this last --  No.  Does Wiigyet have fishing sites?  Yes.  Now, Hanamuxw is Joan Ryan, your daughter?  Yes, yes.  And I can tell you that she is one of the  petitioners.  Did she never speak to you about this  petition in 1983?  1983?  Yes, that's the date of this petition.  Oh, yeah.  You see it's signed by Mr. Peter Grant and another  lawyer and it's dated the 9th of March, 1983.  Do  you see that signature and the name Mr. Grant?  Yes.  Who is counsel today.  Mh'm.  And it is dated the 9th day of March, 1983.  Mh'm.  Now, did Hanamuxw never mention this to you?  He mention -- she mention it to me, but I was sick  that time.  I was in the hospital for over a month,  yeah.  And you don't know why Wiigyet doesn't appears here  as a -- as one of the petitioners?  I guess he busy at that time.  I didn't know -- I  was gone for 17 days in the hospital.  I see.  And I —  Now, there was -- there was a -- attached to this  petition were several maps of fishing sites and one  of them was for Kitsequkla.  Mh'm. 1  Q  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  6  THE  COURT  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  0  MR.  MACAU  1  2  1427  Did you ever see that map that was attached to this  petition?  Well, my lord, she didn't see the petition, so I  don't know whether she saw the map that was attached  to it.  She may have seen the map.  She can tell us if she has seen the map or Mr.  Macaulay can put it to her.  Sure.  But she didn't see the petition and I don't  think she can say if the map was attached to it.  if:  Your Lordship will recall that those are rather  difficult to read, so I have had them blown up, my  lord.  13 THE COURT:  Sounds ominous.  This is already an exhibit, I  14 think.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  No, it's another schedule for another Village.  16 That's already a schedule.  17 THE COURT:  Oh, I see.  This is not in yet?  18 MR. MACAULAY:  This is not in yet.  There were several and this  19 relates, as I understand it, only to Kitsequkla.  20 And it says -- it refers -- there is another one for  21 Kitwanga and so on.  And this is Schedule B.  The  22 last one we saw, I believe, my lord was Schedule C  2 3 and D.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  2 5 MR. MACAULAY:  26 Q    Now, could you take a look at that, Mrs. Ryan, and  27 tell me if you have ever seen that before?  It says  28 that it's a Kitsequkla fishing ground.  And then  29 underneath there is the words Gitksan carrier Tribal  30 Council, March, 1983.  31 A    Skeena Crossing and this is Andimaul.  32 Q    Well, my first question is did you ever see this  33 particular map before of fishing sites?  34 A    Well, I mentioned all the names.  35 Q    Well, before today, did you see that map because  36 it's not quite the same as the names you mentioned?  37 A    No.  38 Q    And over there --  39 MR. GRANT:  Can the interpreter ask her the question.  I think  40 she misunderstood the question because she is trying  41 to identify.  42 INTERPRETER:   No, she didn't.  4 3 MR. MACAULAY:  44 Q    Now, you see the -- over in the right-hand side  45 there is a list of names of Chiefs?  46 A    Yes.  47 Q    And there first is a number and then the clan and 142?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  then the owner?  Yes.  And the name of the Chief?  Yeah.  Now, you will see the first four items there, that's  numbers 201, 204, 205 and 206 are listed as Joan  Ryan?  Yes.  Hanamuxw?  Yes, Wiigyet.  I remember the names.  And then you see those same numbers over here and it  shows some fishing sites?  Yes.  And now Mr. Grant, or whoever was responsible for  drawing this at the time, also drew the -- what  appear to be the boundaries of the Indian reserves  along the Skeena River.  Do you see those?  Yes.  And all the Hanamuxw' sites appear -- seem to be  inside that reserve boundary.  All the --  All the sites that are numbered on the map are  within that boundary and I think that's a mistake to  say that all the sites are within the boundary.  MACAULAY:  I don't think Mr. Grant ought to be joining me in  cross-examination, my lord.  I am objecting to the form of the question, my lord.  He said all of Hanamuxw' sites are within the  fishing boundary and I think that -- but he was  pointing to the map.  But there is a fine line.  One always appreciates  assistance.  On the other hand, there are times when  it's preferrable to allow cross-examination to  continue uninterrupted.  This one is very close to  the border.  I am not sure on which side of the line  it falls.  In the normal course of events it would  be for the witness to draw that distinction.  With a  witness of this type it is important to be  particularily accurate.  It may not be right to  leave it entirely to re-examination.  I don't think that I want to rule on the  particular matter that has arisen because there is  no point to it.  I think what Mr. Macaulay is  saying, Mr. Grant, is he would prefer if you didn't  assist him.  Never the less, that doesn't prevent  you from tendering proper objections.  And I am not going to say one way or the other  at the moment.  It may be better if you actually  A  Q  MR. GRANT  MR.  MR. GRANT  THE COURT 1429  1  2  3  4  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  12  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  17  18  MR.  MACAU  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  began interjections with the words such as "I  object" so we will know precisely that you are  objecting and not seeking to assist Mr. Macaulay  because he has indicated he would rather not have  your assistance.  I have no problem with that.  And I just want to  state, my lord, I didn't said that.  I understand that.  Mr. Macaulay was pointing to the map and I thought  he meant he was pointing to those sites, but he said  all of the sites of Hanamuxw are on the reserve and  I —  Yes.  The words he was saying didn't seem to be  consistent.  And I agree I should have said:  I  object at the beginning.  And I apologize to Mr.  Macaulay since he thought I was assisting him.  f:  Well, I assumed the best that he was trying to  assist.  On this map -- we will start again.  On this map  which you have not seen before, the sites identified  as Hanamuxw' sites are all clustered inside --  Yes.  -- the reserve boudary during this period on the --  Highway side.  Well —  The rest of Hanamuxw across the river.  Yes.  You have given evidence that there are sites  on both sides of the river?  Yes.  At that point in the river --  Yes.  -- are there also fishing sites outside the reserve  boundary upstream?  Well, I think inside the reserve Kitsequkla.  Are there any Hanamuxw fishing sites outside, that  is upstream of the -- of that have reserve boundary?  How far is the reserve?  Well, all I know is what's shown on this map,  witness, so I -- you were showing -- using another  map.  No, I am sorry, that's not correct.  You were  reciting the certain fish sites without the  assistance of a map.  And I am now asking -- you  showing you what appears to be the reserve boundary.  Yes.  According to Mr. Grant's petition and the reserve  boundary up here is to cross the Skeena River at 1430  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  MR.  MAULAY:  9  10  11  THE  COURT:  12  MR.  MACAULAY  13  THE  COURT:  14  15  16  MR.  GRANT:  17  18  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT:  23  MR.  GRANT:  24  THE  COURT:  25  26  27  REGISTRAR:  28  MR.  MACAULAY  29  THE  COURT:  30  REGISTRAR: F  31  THE  COURT:  32  33  34  35  MR.  MACAULAY  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  this point.  Now, are there any Hanamuxw' sites  upstream?  No.  Outside --  No.  the reserve boundary?  No.  Not that you know of.  Could this be marked as the  next exhibit, my lord.  It could be marked for  identification, if necessary.  Well, if it's agreed that it's part of the --  Exhibit 26.  The petition Exhibit 26, it seems to me it should go  in as part of that.  But I would be glad to hear  what counsel say about that.  It is a schedule to that exhibit.  But, of course, I  would ask that it be marked, if it's marked, as sub  letter after 26 of a letter -- that it be marked for  identification because it hasn't been identified by  this witness or actually by anyone else and it  hasn't been put to anyone else.  Well, is it disputed?  It is a schedule to that petition.  Then it should be part of that exhibit.  It can be  separately identified as 26B unless we already have  a 2 6B.  Don't we have a 2 6A?  We do have a 2 6A, yes, my lord.  26A is another schedule.  This will be 26B.  For identification?  No.  (EXHIBIT 26B:  Petition)  Are you a member of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal  Council, Mrs. Ryan?  Yes.  And how long have you been a member of the Tribal  Council?  About four years.  About four years?  Yes.  Were you a member of the Tribal Council in March of  1983?  Yes, but I was sick that time.  Yes, you explained that.  And before March of 1983, 1431  1 Mr. Morrell who was -- had several interviews with  2 you?  3 A    Yes.  4 Q    And Mr. Morrell is employed by the Tribal Council?  5 A    Yes.  6 Q    And he is the fisheries expert for the Tribal  7 Council?  8 A    Yes.  9 Q    And he has been doing studies and reports for the  10 Tribal Council?  11 A    Yes.  12 Q    On fisheries subjects?  13 A    Yes.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, my lord, I propose to show the witness a  15 photograph.  I wrote my friend Mr. Grant last night  16 to tell him that we've had this photograph for  17 months, but didn't consider it particularily  18 relevant until some recent evidence.  I should also  19 inform the court that the caption on the back of the  20 photograph is -- was written in on there by -- on my  21 direction.  It's the caption that appears on the  22 file index card at the provincial museum.  23 THE COURT:  All right.  Is there any objection?  24 MR. MACAULAY:  On the bottom right-hand corner, that is our  25 production number 8311.  And over on the left-hand  26 corner is the provincial museum's number and it's  27 number 4086.  28 MR. GRANT:  I have no — I don't object to Mr. Macaulay putting  29 this photograph to the witness.  I do say, though,  30 that maybe this is the other split side of the coin  31 that we have been talking about, that Mr. Macaulay  32 indicated that he didn't think this photograph was  33 particularily relevant until recently.  I think that  34 the photograph on its face there appears to be  35 difficult -- and it's difficult for counsel to make  36 that judgment as to what is relevant, although we  37 all have to do it.  And I would subject that --  38 possibly from the federal position I understood from  39 Mr. Macaulay's associate that they had a box of  40 photographs.  I believe he referred to it in his  41 letter.  A large number of photographs and they all  42 should be ultimately disclosed.  If I am wrong on  43 that, that's what I understood and that they all be  44 disclosed on a list and we could --  45 MR. MACAULAY:  I would hardly call it a box of photographs.  46 There are 8 or 10 others that the researchers  47 brought up. 1432  1 THE COURT:  Well, in view of the fact that there is no  2 objection, we can carry on now.  It will be for you  3 to decide, Mr. Macaulay, whether you produce these  4 other photographs and you will, of course, incure  5 the risk of not doing so should you later choose or  6 seek to use them.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I will list any photograph that I haven't  8 listed already and I don't think either the court or  9 my friends will find them very interesting.  You  10 never know.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  What are you putting to the witness, the  12 photograph?  13 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, could you hand that up to the witness.  14 MR. GRANT:  I would like to know if the witness can identify it,  15 but my friend just appears to have a practice of  16 passing them in to the court before the witness can  17 identify it.  18 THE COURT:  See how you get along, Mr. Macaulay.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  20 Q    Do you recognize what is shown in that photograph,  21 Mrs. Ryan?  22 A    Kitsequkla, British Columbia Museum.  23 THE COURT:  You'll forgive me, Mr. Macaulay, for suggesting that  24 perhaps you suggest to the witness what you say it  25 is to assist her.  26 MR. GRANT:  Yes, she is asking what it is.  27 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, she shouldn't have much difficulty.  28 Doesn't that photograph show your totem pole?  29 MR. GRANT:  Which one are you pointing to?  3 0 MR. MACAULAY:  31 Q    A side view of it?  32 A    Yeah.  33 THE COURT:  You say "yes"?  34 A    Yes.  35 THE COURT:  All right.  3 6 MR. MACAULAY:  37 Q    And that's an old photograph?  38 A    Yes.  39 Q    And the provincial museum records tell us that it  40 was taken in 1910.  Do you remember seeing the  41 Village when it was -- it looked like that, the  42 Village of Kitsequkla?  43 A    That year?  44 Q    Well, the -- I am not asking you to agree to this,  45 but it was apparently taken in 1909 or 1910.  46 A    1910?  47 Q    Yes. 1433  1 A    I was too young.  2 Q    Oh, yes, I know.  But when you first saw the  3 Village, did it look like that?  4 A    Yes.  5 THE COURT:  It looks like Kitsequkla at that time?  6 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, the witness is saying when she first saw  7 Kitsequkla, her first recollection is that the  8 Village looked like that.  9 THE COURT:  And which pole do you say is —  10 MR. MACAULAY:  It's the second from the left, my lord.  11 MR. GRANT:  Second from the right.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  From the right, I am sorry.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  It's a side view of the same pole.  15 MR. GRANT:  I recommend that the witness put a mark on that --  16 on the exhibit.  17 THE COURT:  Well, the second from the right is a pretty clear  18 definition of which one.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  It is the only one from the right with a figure  20 with the hat on.  21 A    Laanim gayt, that's what they call a hat.  22 MR. GRANT:  Laanim gayt.  23 A    Laanim gayt is a hat.  2 4 MR. MACAULAY:  Laanim gayt is a hat.  25 THE COURT:  Mrs. Ryan, is this the collection of poles that was  26 washed out in 1936?  27 A    Yes.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  2 9 MR. MACAULAY:  30 Q    That's a better photograph in many ways, my lord,  31 because it is a close-up.  Although it's a side  32 view, that may be a disadvantage.  And does that  33 photograph -- I had better leave one in front of  34 you.  Does that photograph show long houses?  Are  35 any of those buildings --  36 A    No, you can see the window of these houses.  37 Q    No, but are they long houses?  38 A    There is one, as far as I know Mool'xan's long  39 house.  40 Q    And can you point out which one is the --  41 A    Moolxan's long house?  42 Q    Yes.  43 A   And there is —  44 MR. GRANT:  She identified the house, that's the full picture of  45 the house on the left-hand side as Jimmy Wood's  46 house, my lord.  47 A    Jimmy Good's house. 1434  1 MR. GRANT: Jimmy Good's house?  2 A Yes.  And that's -- his Chief name was Gwa'a maats.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  4 Q But that's not a long house, is it?  5 A No, see the windows, the long house are no windows.  6 Q There were no windows in long houses?  7 A Yes.  8 Q Well, all of these houses, as far as we can tell,  9 have windows, don't they?  10 A Yes.  11 Q So none of them are long houses?  12 A No, just Mool'xan's long house, but he wasn't on  13 that picture.  14 Q Well, there still was one long house, but it is not  15 in this picture?  16 A Yes, my grandmother moved the long house in  17 Andimaul.  That old house, that's Hanamuxw house.  18 Q You had a long house at Andimaul?  19 A Yes, my grandmother's long house, that's Hanamuxw'  20 house.  21 Q And that had no windows?  22 A No, no.  23 Q Did it have a hole in the roof?  24 A Yes.  25 Q So the smoke could get out?  26 A Yes.  They call Gan aala.  27 Q And the fire was built in the center of the floor,  2 8 was it?  29 A Yes,yes.  30 Q When you were a young girl, did you live in a long  31 house?  32 A Yes.  33 Q And did several families live in a long house  34 together?  35 A Well, what happened before me, that's what they did.  36 Q No, but when you were young?  37 A Well, I used to go in my grandmother's house.  38 Q And when you went to your grandmother's house, were  39 there several families living in the house?  40 A Yes, yes, yes.  41 Q Was that unusual for 1920 -- that must have been  42 when you -- the time that you are talking about.  43 Was it unusual in 1920 for people to live in the  44 long houses?  45 A Well, some of the people were still living -- still  46 using that long house at that time.  47 Q But most people were not using long houses in 1920, 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1435  were they?  Yes, some of them, yeah.  Well, some were, but the majority of people were no  longer using long houses; is that right?  Yes.  And this picture shows that all the houses --  Mh'm, yes.  -- have windows?  Yes, you could see the window then.  How many people lived at Andimaul when you were  young, when you were six or seven years old?  Do you  remember that?  Yes, a lot of people.  But they moved back to  Kitsequkla.  My grandmother wants to go back to  Kitsequkla in 1929.  And that's the time when we  moved to Kitsequkla and the rest of the people ahead  of us .  Yeah.  And was there a smokehouse at Andimaul?  No.  We used to go to grandmother's smokehouse in  the other side.  Up the Skeena River?  Yes.  And how long -- how long ago did that smokehouse  fall down?  It's not fall down in 1929.  No, but how long ago?  It's not there now, is it?  Not there now, but they still see that where the  smoke is -- where the smokehouse is.  You can tell --  Yes.  -- where it used to be?  Yes.  Because there are some remains?  Yes.  How long ago did it -- did people stop using that  smokehouse?  1930 when Jeffrey take his family there.  And are there any smokehouses along the river near  Kitsequkla now?  Well, there is a lot of smokehouse there, but one is  Hanamuxw' smokehouse is Gwin ap on the highway side.  It's still on the river on the highway side?  Yes.  And it's still used as a smokehouse?  Oh, yeah.  How many other smokehouses are still used?  Lot of -- lot of people owns the smokehouse, Guxsan 1436  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  2 0 MR.  21  22 MR.  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  3 0 MR.  31  32 THE  33 MR.  34 MR.  35  36  37 THE COURT  3 8 REGISTRAR  3 9 THE COURT  4 0 REGISTRAR  41 MR. GRANT  42  43  44  45  46  47  and Xsgogimlaxha.  Q    On the river?  A    Yes.  COURT:  What was the second one?  MACAULAY:  Guxsan.  COURT:  And the other one?  TRANSLATOR:  Xsgogimlaxha.  A   Xsgogimlaha.  MACAULAY:  Q    They haven't got their own smokehouses near their  homes?  They still smoke the salmon down at the  river?  A    Yes.  It's Gwagl'lo's smokehouse on the highway  side.  You could see when you go through the highway  that's Gwagl'lo's smokehouse, the same way as with  An woowaxhl gaak.  I heard this man, young men were  talking about George Milton.  Q    Yes.  A    There is a smokehouse there.  STERRITT:   345.  A    There is a highway by the smokehouse.  MACAULAY:  Q    And those smokehouses, have you been there to look  at them in the last few years?  Yes.  And they belong to a --  Haak asxw.  Head Chief in the house?  Yes.  MACAULAY:  I see it's 4 o'clock, my lord, and I don't think  this witness should be kept beyond the hour.  COURT:  Is 345 Haalus?  GRANT:  No, my lord, she said An woowaxhl gaak, that's 345.  MACAULAY:  The registrar tells me that that photograph  hasn't yet been entered as an exhibit, my lord.  Can  it be marked as the next --  What number is that?  59.  I'm sorry?  59.  My lord, before you recess, I got a message -- a  request I made through the Registrar to yourself and  suggesting from the Registrar that we meet at 9:30.  And I have mentioned this to both my friends and I  wondered -- it doesn't appear to me it would take  that long.  I would I wonder if quarter to ten or  ten to ten.  A  Q  A  Q  A 1437  1 THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  REGISTRAR  THE COURT  Yes.  Ten to ten in chambers.  Yes, all right.  Order in court.  Thank you, ladies, Madam Reporter.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein, transcribed to  the best of my skill and ability.  LISA REID, Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.

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