Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Thomas Wright Vol. 2] British Columbia. Supreme Court Apr 30, 1986

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 2-73  WRIGHT, T.  UPON COMMENCING AT 10.20 A.M. , 30 APRIL, 1986  NORMAN MOORE ,  Gitksan Interpreter,  Previously Sworn.  THOMAS WRIGHT, a Witness  called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs, Previously  Sworn, testifies as follows:  MR. GRANT:   This is a continuation of the Commission Evidence  of Thomas Wright, which was adjourned on February 21,  1986.  It's a continuation of my Direct Examination,  and Norman Moore is the Interpreter.  Mr. 0'Byrne is here for the Province of British  Columbia.  Bev Ferguson is the Court Reporter, and  Susan Marsden is assisting with the words, that is  the Gitksan words.  And for the record, I indicated last time that  we would, when Mr. Sterritt was here,  if there was  pronunciation problems, that he could repeat the words  so the Interpreter could give the proper interpretation  of the words I say.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  I have no objection.  MR. GRANT:   And I would ask that Ms. Marsden do the same  when asked by myself or the Interpreter or when she  sees there is a problem.  Before proceeding with the Commission, I would  like for the record to correct two errors:  One at page  20 of Volume I of the Commission Evidence of Thomas  Wright, that is February 19, 20, and 21.  And that at  line 6 it said:  "His land is Xsu'wiiaks, Perry Lake."  That should read:  "Bear Lake."  And at page 33, line 40:  "Were there any Gitgaga'a or Fireweed  chiefs at Kisgagas?"  And that would be "Giskaast" spelled G-I-S-K-A-A-S-T,  Giskaast or Fireweed chiefs.  That same word is used on page 34, line 4, and  again it should be "Giskaast". 2-74  WRIGHT, T.  In  Chief  Mr.  . Grant  MR.  . 0'BYRNE  MS.  . MARSDEN  Could I have that spelling again?  G-I-S-K-A-A-S-T.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR.  GRANT:  Q    Thomas, you understand that you are still under oath  today on this Commission?  A    Yes.  Q    And Mr. Interpreter, you understand that you are still  under oath to translate from Gitksan to English?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes, I do.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    At the last Commission I was asking you about  Txa'Anlaxhatxw.  Was Txa'Anlaxhatxw a chief who came  from Kisgagas?  A    Yes, he is from there.  He's got fishing grounds and  a lot of other stuff.  Q    And is Txa'Anlaxhatxw related to Xsimxsan and did he  originally come from Temlaxamit?  A    They are related, just like you are.  You are my grandson.  That's how they were related.  Q    And, Mr. Interpreter, when he is referring to you,  is  he referring to you?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, he is referring to me.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    To you, The Interpreter, okay.  THE INTERPRETER]   I didn't ask him when.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Did they come from Txa'Anlaxhatxw?  A    All the Skeena people came from there, and the Port  Simpson people came from Txa'Anlaxhatxw.  Q    I would like to ask you some questions about the berry  grounds.  Can you tell me the name of the place where  'Wiik'aax picked berries and where that was in relation  to Kisgagas?  A    There isn't exactly one berry patch anywhere.  You  could go anywhere on this earth and get berries anywhere  you want.  Q    Have you heard of a name of a place called Gwitsaheeyax?  THE INTERPRETER:  What did you ask?  BY MR . GRANT :  Q     Have you heard of that place?  A     That's where the people of Kisgagas used to get their  berries. It's still there now. 2-75  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    Can you tell us what Gwitsaheeyax means?  THE INTERPRETER:  It's an old, ancient word, and what he thinks  it means is it's the droppings of a bear when that bear  has berries and they drop it all over the place.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     I'm not Certain if I asked you this or can you tell me  where Gwitsaheeyax is in relation to Kisgagas?  A     It's not very far.  It's about seven miles away.  They  used to go and bother the bears at that berry patch.  They didn't really scare the bear.  They were just  teasing it.  Q     Is Gwitsaheeyax on the route that you described in our  last session? That is the trip that you describe how  you got to 'Wiik'aax territory.  Is it along that same  trail or that route?  A     They don't go past Gwitsaheeyax when they go to  'Wiik'aax territory.  They go to the left to go to  Gwitsaheeyax territory, and they go to the right to go  to 'Wiik'aax territory.  Q     And that's to the left from the Village of Kisgagas  and to the right from the Village of Kisgagas?  THE INTERPRETER:  That's what he meant.  MR. GRANT:  He referred to Kisgagas?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q     What kind of berries did the people pick at  Gwitsaheeyax?  A     That's high-bush huckleberries.  Q     What's the Gitksan name for it?  A     Sim 'Maay'.  Q     Did the Kisgagas people dry the huckleberries that they  picked in the old days?  A     Yes, they did. But I never did see it. I tried to do  it when I was small, but they just broke up and I tried  to fix it.  Q     And where did they dry the huckleberries?  A     They dried either inside the house or outside the house.  There is some that you could use inside and some  outside, or anywhere.  Q     But did they do the drying process at Gwitsaheeyax or  bring the berries back to Kisgagas to dry them?  A     They brought it back to Kisgagas because it wasn't far  to go.  Q     Did the people also go to a place called Angilgala'nasxw  to pick berries? 2-76  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A    They picked low-bush blueberries there.  But it's too  far, so just Axmoogoosxw go there.  Q    Axmoogoosxw,  is that a chief or a certain person that  goes there?  A    'Wiik'aax relative, it could be his brother or just a  relative.  I saw him and he was quite old when I seen  him.  Q    Can you tell us what Angilgala' nasxw means?  A    It's a river, and there is a deep part of it at a certain area and then they go around behind it. And there  is a shallow part where they just wade across. And  that's why they call it Angilgala'nasxw because they  go around it and behind it.  Q    Which Way would you go from Kisgagas to get to  Angilgala'nasxw and how far is it?  A    You had to go over a mountain to get there.  It's about  50 miles.  It's about from Hazelton to Kisgagas. That's  the distance.  Q    Whose territory was Angilgala'nasxw on, which chief  held that territory?  THE INTERPRETER:  Axmoogoosxw and Gyatsees he mentioned  those names.  He said it's his grandfathers.  MS. MARSDEN: What was the first name?  THE INTERPRETER:  Axmoogoosxw.  MR. GRANT : Which was the last one?  THE INTERPRETER:  Gyatsees.  He said Kisgagas is practically  all his now.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Would you go on the same route as you went to 'Wiik'aax  territory, which you described last time, to go to  Angilgala'nasxw?  Is it in the same direction and on  the same route?  THE INTERPRETER:  He goes there, there is two trails. And  they go to Bear Lake.  One of them goes to  Angilgala'nasxw to get to 'Wiik'aax land.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    So just to clarify, would it be correct to say that you  would leave Kisgagas in the same direction as you go to  'Wiik'aax territory towards Bear Lake?  And then you  would take another trail off to go to Angilgala'nasxw?  A    Xsagagyoot is the name of the water behind Kisgagas  and the trail that we used to go to 'Wiik'aax  territory is the main trail for everybody from Bear  Lake. And we go past Angilgala'nasxw when we go there.  Q    Did the people from different houses at Kisgagas share 2-77  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  the berry grounds?  In other words, did people from more  than one house use each particular berry ground?  A     People weren't too concerned about berries.  What they  were concerned about was meat and they dried this meat.  That's why they went out to hunt. And they used groundhog skins for money, whereas the white people used wood  for money.  And they just put serial numbers on the wood.  Q     Did you see them use groundhog skins for money when you  were a small boy?  A     No, I didn't.  By the time I was born, there was money  here, paper money.  Q     I was going to come to the animals that the people used.  But before I do, were there many other berry grounds at  Kisgagas or for the Kisgagas people besides  Angilgala'nasxw and Gwitsaheeyax that we have talked  about?  A     There are a lot of other berry patches.  But the white  people sell berries in the stores now.  So a lot of the  people don't go out picking at those berry patches.  Q     Were there a lot of bears at Gwitsaheeyax?  A     Yes, there were a lot of bears there.  That was their  habitat, natural habitat.  That's why they call  Gwitsaheeyax, because their droppings are all over the  place.  Q     Now, you have described that your family used  huckleberries or picked huckleberries at Gwitsaheeyax.  Besides huckleberries  or high-bush huckleberries, did  they also pick blueberries and use blueberries?  A     No, they didn't. That's a place where you pick -- you  don' t get any miiyahl there.  Q     Blueberries are called miiyahl?  A     Yes.  Q     Would they pick miiyahl at other places?  A     We could go anywhere at Kisgagas and get it. When we  were small, we used to go out with pails just around  the village and pick it and bring it home and our  mother would cook it for us.  Q     Did the people use cranberries or pick cranberries  around Kisgagas or anywhere in the Kisgagas territory?  A     Yes, they did. There is a lot of different kinds of  berries that our grandmothers used.  Q     Were cranberries found at a place called Lalax'uu?  Miiyoot is for cranberries,  that's what they call  cranberries and high-bush cranberries are Ts'idipxst?  THE INTERPRETER:  That's what I was trying to clarify with  him. He said you get cranberries at Lalax'uu. 2-78  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    And Was that a place that was near Kisgagas, or was it  quite far away, Lalax'uu?  A    There is a lot of places in Kisgagas you get it. On  the trails from here to Kisgagas you could go anywhere  to pick it, and they just get enough to eat for one  meal.  Q    Now, the high-bush or the huckleberries,  I believe, are  called Sim'Maay' . I'm asking you.  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes,  Sim'Maay'.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Are sim'Maay'  that you picked or were picked by your  family near Kisgagas the same as the berries your  people now get from here,  from near Stuart on Highway  37?  A    Yes, they are the same.  It's not only one kind of  berries people eat on this earth. They eat many  different things such as meats.  Q    Did your grandmother explain or grandparents explain  to you how the old people used to go and burn certain  parts of the territory to help the berries grow?  A    It's no good to do that.  It's better to let lightning  do it.  It's more effective that way.  Q    Did the people use areas where the lightning had caused  fires in the old days, to pick berries for harvesting  berries?  A    After the fire started, after the fire was over for  about 10 years, then the people go and pick berries  there.  Q    Did your grandparents tell you of any places where the  people had burned the grounds themselves to help the  berries grow?  A    My grandmother did tell me about these incidents. But  when they do burn it,  they don't go very far, the fire.  And so it' s better to let the lightning do it because  a big area is burnt then.  Q    So when the people burned it in the old days, would  they control it in a small area? Would the people  control the fire so it wouldn't spread?  A    There was one burned on the other side of Kisgagas.  It was caused by lightning. The people from Kisgagas  went there to try to put it out but they couldn't  contain it. It went about 50 miles and the other side  of Kisgagas.  And yes, probably they do try to contain  what they burn.  Q    This fire that you have referred to, did this happen 2-79  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  When you were a small boy or a big man, or did this  happen before you were born?  A    Yes, I did see it. It was 'Wiiminoosikx and there was  a lot of them that went to. put it out but they couldn't.  Q    Approximately how old were  you when that fire occurred?  A    At that time I was just about married.  My brother Henry  Wright went to help fight the fire. He was a young boy,  but he still went. I stayed home with my mother to help  her dry fish because we were going to go to Bear Lake  to dry meat.  Q    Do you recall, did this fire happen in the late summer,  or what time of year?  A    It's about this time of year.  It was in summertime.  They were drying fish at that time and people just left  what they were doing, drying that fish. And they went  to fight the fire. There was no fire warden in them  days.  Q    Were the only people that were fighting that fire the  people of Kisgagas?  A    There is a lot of fires on this earth.  I guess everybody  fights fires.  Q    Do you know if Gitksan people from other villages came  to help fight that fire,  such as Galdo' o or Kispayaks.  A    They went to their own places to fight the fires. They  had no business at Kisgagas and we never had any  business with their territories.  Q    Did any white people come to fight that fire that you  were talking about that Henry went to fight?  A    There weren't any white people at that time. And there  weren't any game wardens or Fish Commission.   There was  nobody like that.  Q    After that fire went out, did the people later use that  area for berries, to pick berries, say 10 years later  as you have described?  A    People weren't too concerned with berries at that time.  I'm 85 now and what they did was just picked enough for  themselves.  Q    Did people in the old days, did people from Kispayaks  and other Gitksan villages come to Kisgagas to get  berries?  A    Their berries were plentiful all over the place. So  they didn't have to come and pick there.  Nowadays the  young people don't care about going out to pick berries  because they could buy it in the store. It was old  people that valued berries.  Q    I would like to ask you a bit about your hunting and  trapping of your father and your grandfather and 2-80  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  yourself.  Did your father or grandfather ever snare  mountain goats?  A    That was the most plentiful of animals around. They  used to wander around amongst the houses at Kisgagas.  And what the people in them days did was they just  killed one, and they're not like the white people, they  would slaughter a lot of animals and sell them.  There was Wijix and moose.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said another one, I'm not too sure what  it is. Wijix is caribou and moose, and he mentioned  another animal, I think it was bear.  MR. GRANT:   Can you check that with him, what other animal?  THE WITNESS:  Game was so plentiful in those days, everything  was plentiful.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    Did your father ever show you a place called  Xsa ango khl?  THE INTERPRETER:  How do you spell that?  There is two  Xsa ango khls, one at Sicintine and one here. It's a  place where they snared goats.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Now, did your father tell you how they snared the goats  at Sicintine?  THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry, I forgot to mention that he said  they used branches to snare them.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Q     Now, Can you describe these type of snares that were  built with those branches?  A     They used barks of trees and bushes, branches, and they  weave them to make something similar to ropes.  THE INTERPRETER:  I'm going to ask him what Am'Waasan means.  Oh, willow bushes.  BY MR.  GRANT :  Q     Did they also use cedar trees?  A     Yes, they did use the bark of cedar.  They made ropes  Out of them. They called it Mo'olkxw when they made  ropes out of the barks of the cedar.  Just recently  they named ropes when the white man came.  Q     Did they use the roots of the cedar trees for any  purposes?  A     They made baskets and pails out of them. These pails  never leaked when they used them because they left  them in the water for a little while.  Q     Did you ever see these pails made out of cedar yourself? 2-81  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  THE INTERPRETER:   Out of the roots.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Out of the roots, yes, I'm sorry.  A    The pails were here already when I was born. But they  used to make containers made of wood where they  contained water.  They called them Galenk.  Q    Were these made of roots?  THE INTERPRETER:   No, they were made of wood. They're called  bent boxes.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    What kind Of trees Were uSed to make these water pails  with the roots? Was that the cedar trees?  A    Yes, they are cedar trees. They used it all over the  place.  Q    What kind Of trees Were USed to make the bent boxes?  A    They used cedar again for the bent boxes. They used  hot water to bend wood and they used roots of trees to  bind them together, the bent boxes.  Q    Now, returning to the snaring or trapping, did the  people of Kisgagas use the same type of snare to snare  goats, moose and bear?  A    The gun was already here when I was born.  THE INTERPRETER:   It's one of the things -- what do you call  them?  Mushroom -- he tried to pronounce it and I  couldn't get it. It's called Simgabaluu in Indian.  MS. MARSDEN:   Can you say that again?  THE INTERPRETER:  Simgabaluu.  I'm going to ask him what he  meant.  Muzzle loader.  BY MR . GRANT :  Q     Going back to my other question, before the guns, did  the people snare goats, bear and moose with the same  type of snare?  A     They used the same kind of snare.  Q     Did you snare a bear or did your father snare a bear  when you were with him?  A     I have snared a number of bears, but I didn't go check  my snare early enough, and the bear spoiled and I had  to get rid of it because nobody is going to eat it.  THE INTERPRETER:  Oh, that is when he quit using the snare.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q     Can you tell us, describe for us how this snare that  you used for the bears, how it worked?  For example,  was it put on a trail? 2-82  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A    I put the snare where the bear trail is and used my  knee as a guide at how high to put the snare, just a  little bit below my knee and the snare would be just  right to get the bear.  Q    Can you describe for us how the snare would work?  Like  what would you set up, and how would it work to catch  the bear?  A    They usually put it, hang it from a tree, and that tree  has to be heavy enough to hold the bear, otherwise it's  going to snap if the bear is too big.  If the bear is  too big, then it's going to snap the snare too.  Q    And how long would this log or tree be that you would  hang?  A    It doesn't matter what.  I don't measure the size of  the tree because I don't have nothing to measure it with  We used to make snares, me and my brother Henry and  Edward, and the bear spoiled it one time so we quit  making them.  Q Now, when the snare was set up, how would the bear get  caught? For example, what would happen when the bear  came into the snare?  A    The Small Ones just hang up in the air, and the big ones  are usually just on the ground because they're too  heavy.  Sometimes the bear would anchor itself on the  ground and break the snare because they're strong.  They would pull at it and they'd break it.  Q    Where WOUld the bear be Caught? Would he be caught  around the neck or somewhere else?  A    Some of the big ones hang up, they're always caught  around the neck. They put some trees up like this and  they probably got the snare tied to these trees, and  when the bear gets hooked around the neck, then these  trees fall down and the weight of those trees would  lift up the bear.  Q    You are indicating two trees in a triangular shape  like a steeple almost.  They lean together?  THE INTERPRETER: They tie the snare onto those and when the  bear pulls at it, like they fall out and lift the bear  up.  MR. GRANT: That' s what he described?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GRANT : Just for the record,  I want to say that the  description is the trees are leaning toward each other  in a triangular shape.  Q How long would it take you to set up such a trap for  a bear if you and your brother Henry were working on  it together? 2-83  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A    It doesn't take too long to build one of those snares.  They usually camouflage the snare with bushes around it  because if the bear sees the snare, then he is just  going to rip it aside because it's just like a man,  the bear.  Q    Would these logs that are leaning together, would they  be above your head when you had it set up and if so,  about how much higher above your head?  How high would  they have to be?  THE INTERPRETER:  They used heavier ones for grizzly and it is  quite high. He didn't say how high.  He said they  used the skin of a moose for the grizzly.  He said he  saw that one time when they snared a grizzly, it was  -- well,  they killed the grizzly he said with the snare.  He used a hide of the moose.  MR. GRANT:  Sorry?  THE INTERPRETER:  They used the hide of the moose for the  snare.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    So you made the snare out of the moose hide; is that  right?  THE INTERPRETER:  That's what he said.  MR. GRANT: Okay, we'll take a few moments off the record for  the tape change.      SHORT RECESS  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Thomas, did your father show you snares that had been  used to trap caribou on his territory?  A    It's the same kind of snare you use with moose. The  moose usually  follow our trails and when the moose gets  caught around  the neck, they just stand in one spot.  Q    So you have snared moose when you were young then; is  that right?  A    I used to use it on mice. My father told me all about  different kinds of snares and we used to play around  and use it on mice.  Q    Do you remember seeing a type of snare or trap that  was used for I believe it's Wijix or caribou that were  all in a row?  A    I have seen the trees that they used. They'd have two  trees and they'd have that snare hanging between those  two trees.  And once the Wijix, the caribou is caught,  it will stand  in one spot. It's like the horses now.  When a horse is tied up, it doesn't move. 2-84  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q     And would they have a row of these snares all in one  place where the caribou would go through?  A     I saw where they used to have snares for Wijix. They  had been standing on the road like that, and the same  with the bear trap. I saw one snare that is quite  high off the ground.  Q     Were the snares for the caribou that you saw, had they  been standing there for a long time?  A     It's been a long time since -- I never did see them  snare Wijix.  It must have been a long time ago that  they used them.  Q     Okay. Whose territory were these Wijix snares on that  you saw?  A     My grandfather's territory.  Q     I'm sorry, would you just tell me, give me his name  so that I know which grandfather you are referring to?  A     Gyatsees  and T'amats'ap  are my  grandfathers.  It was on their territories I went and  I didn't go on anybody else's.  Q     And they had separate territories?  A     They had different territories, just as they are today.  Q     And you saw these caribou snares on each of their  territories?  A     Wijix,  I saw them on all their lands.  They don't use  it any more. I just saw them on their lands.  Q     Was this your understanding from what your grandfathers  told you about the Wijix traps, that they would re-use  the same snares over and over?  A     All the Indians used to use them, not only my  grandfathers.  After the white people came, then they  used guns.  Q     What time Of year would they snare the Wijix?  A     They come from up north and they have only one trail,  jUSt like me and you.  We have one trail to Kisgagas  and if people wanted to, they could snare me and you.  Q     And how Close WOUld they go to Kisgagas on their trail,  the Wijix?  A     I didn't see it myself.  It was just told to me so I  didn't see it.  Q        Did your  grandfather tell  you how close  they would  go  to Kisgagas? A     They usually  just have one trail. It's just like trails  between different places.  THE INTERPRETER:  I'm going to ask him a question.  MR. GRANT:  What did you ask him?  THE INTERPRETER:  I asked him what Yak means and he said it  was a form of a type of snare. Everybody uses that 2-85  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  type, he said.  MR. GRANT: And maybe that answers my next question.  Q    Is that What you call the snare for the Wijix?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yak is when they set -- like let's say a  groundhog has a trail there. He might come home and  his grandfather would ask him if he yakked that trail,  if he set a snare there.  MR. GRANT:  I  see.  Q    Is there a name for the type of snare they used for  the caribou?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said it's a Wijix, the same as what they  use for moose.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Thomas, We Can't do this probably, but if we were out  on 'Wiik'aax territory with you, could you show us  where those caribou trails were, where those snares  were that you saw as a young man,  if you were out  there?  A    You guys probably wouldn't be able to find them, even  if I showed you. They are probably all rotten now,  to the ground.  THE INTERPRETER:  He mentioned earlier that the people where  the Wijix cross their lands, they'd be the ones that  know where the traps would be, or the snares.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    Did your father and your grandfather use spears to  kill grizzly bears?  A    Yes, they did use it.  They had steel at the end of  the pole,  and they  used to kill a  grizzly with it.   We  can't do it nowadays.  The old people used to be quite  brave and they could do it.  Q      And do  you know where  your father  would spear a grizzly  in order to kill it without being injured himself?  A    You could just stand it anywhere.  People nowadays  are working in pole camps. They don't really care  about the skin of a grizzly bear even though it's  worth about $500 now for the skin.  Q     When you were a young man and you  or your father hunted,  did he  prepare himself   through any  special practices   to  assist him to be successful?  And if so, what did he do?   A    Yes,  they do.  THE INTERPRETER:  And I said what do they do, and he said  they use steam bath.  And they take the water -- steam  bath is what you call Amgu'utxw.  He said they get  water from Lalax'uu. 2-86  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    What is that?  THE INTERPRETER:  It's where there is lots of moss, moss flat  he said.  It's probably a marshy place.  He said they  get the water from there and they bathed in it. That  makes them lucky.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Would they put any plants or special things in the water  when they bathed?  A    They just used water to bathe in.  Q    Did they do anything with the plant known as Devil's  Club?  A    They cook the Wa'ums is what you call the Devil's Club.  They cook it and after it's cooked, they drink the  juice of it. It takes them quite a long time to drink  one gallon of it.  Q    Would they sleep in any special place and in any special  way before they went hunting?  A    They sleep beside the fire and they count the days they  sleep in one position.  Then they turn in another  position.  Q    They put their head where their feet  were?  A    Yes, they would turn in another position.  Q    Aside from the Devil's Club, did they eat or drink  anything else that was special?  THE INTERPRETER:  They don't drink the juice of that Devil's  Club after the buds start getting leaves. And they go  up on the mountain, they get what he said Is'mskaniist.  He doesn't know what it is in English and I don't  either.  It's from the water.  MR. GRANT:   It'S a plant?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes, a plant.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Just to understand, they would get a plant up in the  mountains that grew in the water?  THE INTERPRETER:   In the water,  yes.  MR. GRANT:   And it' s known as --  THE INTERPRETER:   Is'mskaniist.  BY MR . GRANT :  Q     Is there a Gitksan WOrd for this process of the hunter's  preparation?  A     Is'mskaniist, you probably misunderstood me, is really  lucky.  If you get sick, it will take that sickness  off you just like a Wa'ums will. 2-87  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  THE INTERPRETER:  Do you want me to ask him again?  MR. GRANT:  Can you explain what Sesatxw is?  THE WITNESS:  It's the process of making yourself lucky.  That's what we're talking about, Sesatxw.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said if you follow that process he just  described,  you could  walk up to a  grizzly and just  cut  its throat and it wouldn't touch you because you ate  that Wa'ums and it makes you lucky.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Did you ever go through this Sesatxw process yourself?  A    I did, but I just used water and I used Wa'ums because  I was sick. That's why I used it as medicine.  Q    Did you get cured by the Wa'ums?  A      I did  get ill, and  I got really lucky  and I practically  walked up to the wild animals and just grabbed them by  hand.  I went up to the mountain and killed about 100  groundhogs and whereas some people can't do that.  I  used  to just give away  that, the meat  of the groundhog.  I'd give it to the elders, about two to each one or  one to the elders. It costs about $5.00 nowadays for  the meat of groundhog.  And I think that's why I lived  so long because I did this.  Q    Was this before you were married or after you were  married that you did this?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said he was married and he gave his wife  some of the meat from the groundhog.  And he gave her  the candy of the groundhog, which is the liver, and he  prepared the inside of the Gwiikxw.  It's the way they  can it nowadays, he said.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    I'd like to refer you back to the description you gave  of going out on the territory with your father when  you were about 13 years old.  When you went out with  your father when you were 13, did your father then use  traps for grizzly bear and other animals in that year,  when you went to 'Wiik'aax territory?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said no, they didn't use those grizzly  any more.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Did your father use deadfall  traps at that time?  A    Deadfall trap is called Ts'ap'mgan.  They don't use  it nowadays, they use steel traps. They cost from  about 40 to $100 for the big steel traps for the  grizzly.  They don't really go after them nowadays. 2-88  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  The kids are busy doing other things than trapping,  enjoying themselves.  They could go drinking while  they're at it.  MR. GRANT: Thomas, would you like to take a break now, or do  you want me to ask you a few more questions before we  have a break for lunch hour?  THE INTERPRETER:   He said you could continue for a little  while longer,  if you want.  MR. GRANT: Again we'll continue and then we would break, and  will you be okay to come back this afternoon?  THE INTERPRETER:  I told him already that you were coming back.  MR. GRANT: And he said he could break in a little while and  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q     Now, when you were a boy, when you were 13, with your  grandfather on 'Wiik'aax territory, do you remember grizzly  bear coming into your camp?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said he was 13 at that time. He doesn't  remember.  He was on his dad's land. His dad's name  was 'Niist. He thinks that 'Niist is now living in  Kispayaks.  The old 'Niist died and the new 'Niist must  be living in Kispayaks.  BY MR . GRANT :  Q      Did this grizzly bear, were you in the camp when the  grizzly bear came in?  A     They were in bed when the grizzly came into camp.  And  they covered the dogs so that they wouldn't make any  noise. They covered them with blankets  and they told  his father don't shoot it. It's going to get mad at  US he said. And his father was wise too. He knew more  than I did and he didn't shoot it.  Q      Were there a lot of grizzlies on 'Niist's territory  that year when you went out?  A     At that time they hid in the tree.  He built a platform  up in a tree and they lived up there.  They built a  fire up there and they   stayed in that   tree for about  two months . His dad was sick. That's why they took him  up there and that' s where they made their camp.  Their brothers were just ready to come out and get  them, well, look for them, when they made it back to  Kisgagas.  Q        Did you and your father  trap different  kinds of animals  while you were out there for that time?  A     The news that they were missing reached  all the way to 2-89  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Prince Rupert, 1913.  He said he was born in 1900.  That' s why he remembers that he was 13 .  Q    You said there were beaver, fisher,  mink. I believe  I heard you say marten?  A    Yes, I said marten too.  Q    Did you trap black bear or grizzly bear that year when  you were out there?  A    With all these animals at that time we didn't bother  with the grizzly or anything like that.  My father was  sick and we lived in the tree for about two months  because that grizzly was bothering us. He always  used to go around camp and below us.  Q    Did your father or you eventually trap that grizzly  that was bothering you?  A    No, we didn't. My father shot a black bear because he  wanted to give the dogs something to eat.  Q    Did you also while you were out that summer trap any  lynx?  A    At that time we weren't after any lynx.  The lynx and  marten have the same kind of trap. And my father only  got one lynx at that time.  Q    Did you trap any coyote or cougar or groundhog at that  time?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said they didn't go after Gwiikxw. I  asked him that, and that's groundhog,  and they didn't  go after the coyote. They just got the ears from that  and the ears of the wolves.  That's for bounty.  BY MR . GRANT :  Q     The cougar?  A     Oh, there was no cougar around at that time. There  was none.  Q     Of what you trapped that year, what was the most valuable  animal that your father could get the most for the furs?  A    'Ween, that's a fisher, and marten and beaver, those  were the most expensive at that time.  Q     Did your father or you sell those furs that you caught  that summer or trade them?  A     Yes, we did sell them at the Hudson Bay.  Q     Was that in Hazelton?  A     Yes, it was here. And we went back to Kisgagas after  we sold them.  Q     You have already described that you were out on your  father's territory for two months because he was sick.  What two months of the year would that have been? What  time of year were you out there that year?  A     It was about this time,  in the springtime, and we left 2-90  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  at March.  Q     They left Kisgagas at March?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, they left at March.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Okay. Did your father recover from his illness from  being sick when you were  out there?  A     He did get well after that and it was in 192 9 that he  died. Some people say he died in. 1927.  Q       I'm sorry,  was this Xsimxsan  that  you are talking about  now?  THE  INTERPRETER:   He said yes,  it was Xsimxsan.   I didn't quite  get the last part because I got a long distance phone  call.  MR. GRANT: Go off the record.       PROCEEDINGS RECESSED  PROCEEDINGS RESUMED  THE INTERPRETER:  He said Txa' anlaxhatxw  died at the Nass and  they took Txa'anlaxhatxw's name.  He said  Txa'anlaxhatxw died at the Nass River, and he took  Txa'anlaxhatxw's name.  MR. GRANT : That' s the completion of the answer?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  MR. GRANT: Just for the record, now that we're on the record,  with the  agreement of  Mr. 0'Byrne, I  had the Interpreter  who was interrupted before the lunch hour by a long  distance call and couldn't complete the answer, listen  to a tape  of that last  answer in Gitksan  that was given  by Thomas, and he has just completed the translation  of that answer now.  Q      Just to  clarify that  answer, could you  tell us who  took  the name Txa'anlaxhatxw?  Are you referring to your  father or to another person?  A     Yes.  Q     He is referring to his father?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q     Now before lunch hour, Thomas, I was asking you about  the other animals that your father and yourself had  trapped.  And I understand that you did not trap all  of these animals this particular year that your father 2-91  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Was sick out on the territory.  Did you trap lynx in  other years?  Did you or your father trap lynx in other  years?  A     Across the river from there I got about seven of them  one year. I was just playing around.  Q     Did you trap cougar in other years?  A     There is hardly any cougar around here. It's only on  rare occasions that you see one.  Q     And did you trap groundhog other years?  A     Yes, that was the Indians' money back then.  That's why  we trapped them.  Q     You said before when you were talking about being out  with your father, the year your father was sick, that  you and your father both decided not to shoot the  grizzly bear.  Can you tell me why you and your father  didn't think it was right to shoot this grizzly bear?  A     It was too mean.  That's why we didn't shoot it. Ny  father shot a small one and they sold it for about $85.  It had its teeth in.  Q     Can you describe the kind of platform that you made  that you and your father lived on for those two months,  the one that was in the trees? How did you make it and  what was it made of?  A     We used wire, telegraph wire.  It was my father's  regular camp and there was a lot of tools there that he  used. The telegraph wire was called Ma'lasxwmtuuts.  And Simon Wright got the message all the way to Prince  Rupert that they were missing.  And seven or eight got  the message on this Ma'lasxwmtuuts, the telegraph wire.  When we got back, we saw the story on the news  that we were lost and that the bears must have killed  US. I guess you people didn't see it on the news.  That's why you keep asking me this.  Q     Now when you caught the furs  of the lynx, did you sell  those furs?  Did you sell those furs or keep them?  A     Yes, we did.  Q     And Who did you sell them to?  A     Hudson Bay and Mr. Dawson.  Q     When you caught coyote, did you sell those furs or did  you keep some?  A     No, we didn't go after them. They're too shy. They  would smell the trap and they just take off.  Q     I Understand that you used the fur of the groundhog.  That's Gwiikxw,   isn't it?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes. 2-i  32  WRIGHT,T.  In  Chief  Mr  . Grant  BY  MR. GR  Q  Or (  _ikxw for money.  Did you use the Gwiikxw for  anything else?  A    After I was born, I didn't use groundhog skin for money.  They just used them for blankets.  Q    Was there a name for the blankets that they made out of  those groundhog skins?  A    Gwiislibust.  The Nass River called Gwiislibust, and we  call it Gwiisgwiikxw.  Q    Did your grandfather or father gave away any Gwiikxw, or  any part of the Gwiikxw?  A    They used to give the meat away and they just used the  skin. After I was born, they stopped using the skin  for money.  Q    This year that you were out with your father and he was  sick, was your mother with you at that time?  A    Not that year, but another year she did and Jack Wright  came with us at that time.  My brother, not the  Norwegian, he said they got one grizzly at that time.      OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    I Understand after discussion with the Interpreter at  the break, with Mr. 0' Byrne present, that on the year  that your mother went with you to the territory, Jack  Wright was also with you.  And that is the same time  that you got the small grizzly;  is that correct?  THE INTERPRETER:  He didn't say small grizzly. He just said  grizzly.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    Oh, that's the same time you got the grizzly?  A    That was the year we got a real big grizzly.  I was the  one that packed it back.  Q    Was anybody with you and your father the year that your  father was sick on the territory?  A    There was only two of us.  Q    Thank you. The year that your father was sick and you  trapped, did you and your father make a lot of money  from the furs that you brought back?  A    We made a lot of money and he gave me 2 00 and I banked  it in town.  I was still small, so I didn't really care  for money then.  Q    You said that you and your father went out in March  and you stayed out until May. In the years that you  and your father trapped, is that usually the time of 2-93  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  year that you would trap?  A    My father was sick.  That's why we came back in July,  1913.  They came back in July.  Q     I  see.  So you stayed out because  your father was  sick.  You stayed out longer than you usually would have,  is  that correct?  A     Yes,  that's the reason.   I had to  pack the grizzly hide  back and two guns, one 3 0/30 and one 22.  Q      So  in normal years  that your father  trapped or that  you  would trap, would you usually go out to trap in March?  A    That's the normal time we go. All the people do that,  people from Kispayaks.  Q    And how long in normal years, that is in years other  than this year your father was sick, would you stay  out before you come back from trapping?  And I mean by  that you would finish trapping.  A    We usually come back May. The beaver closes at May 15.   Q  Now at this time in 1913, were there any fish wardens  or game wardens?  A      There  is no white people  here.  All  we saw was lineman,  Charles Martin. His Indian name was Gwalaa.  Q    Sorry,  I didn't hear?  THE INTERPRETER:  He was a lineman, Charles Martin.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    Was he a Gitksan?  A    Yes, he was my grandfather.  He was raised in Nass  River.  Charles Martin used the Nass River language  and  we used the Gitksan.   There is  a difference between  our language.  Q    But did Charles Martin live at Kisgagas?  A    He never did see Gwiisgaxgax, when he came back here  and died. He was in Vancouver and he came back here  and married somebody very young. She was under age  and he had a big store.  It was about the size of the  Hudson Bay down here.  Q    In Hazelton?  THE INTERPRETER:   In Hazelton.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Do you  remember when  Charles Martin  died and if so,  how  old were you when he died?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said he was out surveying.  Oh, he was  Out anyways and that is when he died.  Peter Martin  and  Arthur Martin were  his children.   They are the ones  that told me that he died. He didn't say what age he  was when he died. He was out looking for minerals, 2-94  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  What do you call that?  MR. GRANT: Prospecting?  THE INTERPRETER:  Prospecting, yes. Not surveying.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Do you recall, was this before or after you were married,  that Charles Martin died?  A     That was after I married.  Ny wife stayed here and I  went out prospecting.  Q     When you stopped trapping the beaver or your father  stopped trapping the beaver, was this close to the  time that they were going to have babies in each year?  A     They are about to have babies when we quit trapping  them. The Indians also know when they are going to  have their offspring.  Q     Did the time the beavers had their young have anything  to do with when you would stop trapping them?  In other  words, is that why you stopped trapping them then?  A     Yes, that's why we never killed it when it's going to  have its offspring.  Q     After your father would finish trapping in the springtime, what would he do after he left the trap line and  returned to Kisgagas? What would he next do in a  normal year?  A     When they came back, all they did was sit around because  they were very tired, my dad's sons. Then Simon came  into town here and got some white man' s food and we ate  that.  Q     Did your father go to the coast after that?  A     My father first saw the coast in 1911.  And I worked  in the cannery,  I was the helper.  Q     And did your father fish or work in a cannery?  A     My father did fish. Me and my brother rode on the boat.  My brother was on one side and I was on the other side.  We were rowing.  Q     At that time, Were all the fishermen that fished at the  coast using rowboats? A     It was  just recently that the power boat came out and  everybody in the cannery were just using rowboats.  Q     And how long would you and your father stay at the  Coast?  A     We went in January and came back the 20th of August.  We were with our mother.  The government closed down  the canneries.  Q     And how did you go down to the coast? Did you go by  boat or by train or some other way?  A     We used the inlander. It was George Canyon's.  He had 2-95  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  a hotel here and one in Fort Essington.  Q     Did he say what the Inlander was?  A     It was a boat.  THE INTERPRETER:  It was a boat, Inlander. They had a store  here at George Canyon.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q     And a hotel?  A    And a hotel.  Q     After you finished fishing in August, would you return?  Did your family return to Kisgagas?  A     It was our village. That's why we came back there. My  father had a house there, not the kind of house they  used in the old days.  Q     When did your father -- and is that when your father  would prepare himself by the Sesatxw to go hunting?  A     Only when he needs money and that's when he does it.  There is a certain time to do it.  Q     That's what I'm trying to determine. Was the time to  do it after you returned from the coast or later in  the year?  A     He could do it any time of year. It's good to start  at this time of year.  I could just about walk up to  the groundhogs and just grab them with my hands.  They are a very shy creature, and I could get them  quite easily.  Q     When you returned from the coast, did you next go to  the berry grounds with your family?  A     When we came back from the coast and we just sat around  because we had a tough time at the coast.  We were  working very hard. Why should we go out in the woods  again and work hard again?  Q     While you were at the coast, were other people at  Kisgagas fishing at Kisgagas, or did that happen after  you came back?  A     People outsiders aren't supposed to come and use our  fishing areas.  Q     While you came back from the coast, did your mother go  out to pick berries after you came back?  A       She didn't  really care  for berries.  The  white men were  selling berries in the stores so she could buy it there. Q     Would  you, between the time you came back and the  winter, would you get wood for your winter supply for  your fires?  A     Yes, we did. We got ready for the winter and made our  wood supply.  Q     Now, between the time you returned to Kisgagas from the 2-96  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  coast and the winter, did you or your father go out on  the land to hunt, or did you wait until after the  winter?  A     No, we worked too hard.  A person doesn't always work.  He has to rest some time.  Q     Did the people in Kisgagas feast at that time?  A     They sometimes do have feasts. Sometimes when we come  back, somebody might have died and then they'd have a  feast.  I'm not always at the Kisgagas.  My mother is  always there.  Q     During the winter months when it was colder, did your  family eat dried fish and dried meat?  A     Yes, we did eat dried fish and dried meat in wintertime.  The dogs would also eat it. They'd be packing it around  on their backs and we'd eat the best parts of the fish,  the best fish, and they'd have the ones that are just  about spoiled. We were never short of food where we  were going in the woods because there is always plenty  of food around, such as grouse and ptarmigan and moose.  Q     Did the people at Kisgagas also put up gardens and  vegetables to help them through the winter?  A     Yes, we do put up gardens and we usually hire somebody  to look after it before we go to the coast.  My mother  is usually with us.  I don't know how many times we go  back and forth to the coast.  The last place we stayed  was at Port Edward.  MR. GRANT: We'll take a break to change the tape.       SHORT RECESS  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Thomas, did the people of Kisgagas use the marten furs  as well for clothing or for any special garments?  A     The big chiefs usually use it for a coat.  And their  sons and daughters use it because they're princes and  princesses.  Q     Is there a name for this Special COat made Of marten  fur?  A     Gwiishat' . The white people seen it and they don't  use it any more. They used to sell one pelt, one  marten pelt for one dollar.  I mean the Hudson Bay  used to buy it for one dollar.  Q     Did you see -- I'll try not to destroy the word --  Gwiishat'?  A     No, I didn't.  No, I didn't see it myself.  But I did 2-97  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  See a coat made out of rabbit skin that was called  Gwiisgaxgax.  THE INTERPRETER:  I'll clarify that with him.  I couldn't quite  get it. The Indians call rabbit Gax.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q     Was this coat made of rabbit, was it USed by the  Simgiiget? Was it used by the Simgiiget and their sons  and daughters?  A     I was the one that used it.  Q     So I take it your answer is yes?  A     I used them as a blanket.  The inside of the feet they  used to make the coat, Gwiisgaxgax or something,  I can't  quite get it right.  Q     Did you wear it at the feasts?  A     What am I going to use it for?  I use it in the feast  hall, Li'li'git.  Q     Did you see smokehouses in Kisgagas when you were  growing up?  A     There were a lot of them.  There were 12 of them. They  are all rotted down now.  THE INTERPRETER: Is there a Gitksan word for smokehouse?  THE WITNESS:  Wilpsehon.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Is it correct that those smokehouses were held by  different chiefs at Kisgagas?  A     Anybody who takes a fish from the river could have a  smokehouse. Some people don't care about it.  Q     Did 'Wiigyet have a smokehouse?  A     Yes, he does have one.  Q     And he had a fishing site?  A     Yes, he does have one.  'Wiigyet had a fish trap.  Q     Did Melulek have two fish traps?  A     He has two.  Genuuhat' is the one down-river from the  bridge. It's on the village side and he has one up-  river from the bridge, Skangalee', and they are all  on the village side.  Q     Did Txa'anlaxhatxw have fishing sites?  A     He has two fishing sites, one for his trap and Anyuusxw.  THE INTERPRETER: I don' t know what Anyuusxw is. He said it  resembles a drift net.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q     Did 'Wiik'aax have a fishing site?  A        He is a relative   of Axmoogoosxw and that is  a fishing  site. That is a fishing site where Axmoogoosxw was 2-98  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  fishing.  They didn't particularly care about fish.  Q    Did 'Niikyap have a fishing site at Bear Lake, to your  knowledge?  A     'Niikyap was from Gitangasx so he didn't have a fishing  site there.  Q     Did Txa'anlaxhatxw  and 'Wiik'aax have smokehouses at  Kisgagas?  A     He never had any because he didn't care about the fish.  He only took about one fish and he fried that.  Q     What about Txa'anlaxhatxw?  Did he have a smokehouse?  A     Yes, he had a smokehouse and a fish trap. They don't  use it any more when I was small.  Q     Did Melulek have a smokehouse?  A     Haiwas and I shared the same thing.  Q     Did Haiwas share Melulek's fishing sites, or did Haiwas  have his own fishing site at Kisgagas Canyon?  A     They shared it when Melulek's not using it. When there  was lots of fish, then Haiwas goes in and uses the same  site.  Q     Do you recall the names of any other chiefs who owned  some of these other smokehouses that you have described?  Can you remember any others right now?  A     Ksemgitgiigyenix and Sam Green, both him and his sister  died already. All the big chiefs have died off.  MR. GRANT:  We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 10.00  o'clock.       PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3.55 P.M.  TO BE RESUMED THURSDAY , 1 MAY, 1986 .  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  Beverly Ferguson  (Ms)  Official Court Reporter  BF/jg-May 9/86 B.C.S.R.A.  #259 2-99  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  NORMAN MOORE, Gitksan  Interpreter, Previously  Sworn.  THOMAS WRIGHT,  A Witness  on behalf of the Plaintiffs,  Previously Sworn, testifies  as follows:      UPON COMMENCING AT 10.20 A.M. , 1 MAY, 1986  MR. GRANT:     This is a  continuation of  the Commission Evidence  that went yesterday.  The same persons are present to  assist with the words;  The Interpreter, Norman Moore;  the Court Reporter;  Mr. 0'Byrne and myself.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT, CONTINUED:  Q    Did your father or your uncle fish at Kisgagas in the  old days?  A     My  father did but  my uncle didn't.   He never did  really  care about the fish, my uncle.  So he just went to  Xsu'wiiaks near Bear Lake.  Q    Did your father,  referring here to Xsimxsan, did he  fish in the canyon at Kisgagas, and did he fish  downstream or upstream of that canyon in the river?  THE INTERPRETER:   I said  did they net any  fish.  I didn't  mean  to use that term.  I meant to ask if they fished there        and  he said they never did use any nets until 1912 .  A        lot of people  fished there for a while,  then they went        off to the mountains  to dry meat.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Did the people fish there by other means than nets  before 1912?  A    They used fish traps.  They only put the fish traps  in for about two hours. In that  time   all  the  12  fish  houses would be full of fish and then they'd take the        T'in  out, they wouldn't leave it in.  Q     So the word for fish trap is T'in?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Was there a specific fishing site in the canyon that  they used the T'in in?  A     That's Melulek's fish traps, and 'Wiigyet had one also. 2-100  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q     Is Genuuhat' the name Of a fishing site of Melulek?  A     Melulek had two. Genuuhat' was down-river from the  bridge, and Galee' was up-river from the bridge.  Q     And you are referring to the bridge that is presently  over Kisgagas Canyon; is that right?  A     Yes, it's the same place.  Q     Could you describe how the T'in worked? How did they  catch fish with this fish trap?  A     I never saw them out it in. It was after the fish came,  that's when I saw them.  Q     Did your grandfather or your father or other people at  Kisgagas tell you how it worked?  THE INTERPRETER: He said I have been telling them over and  over how they got fish.  They use a drift net. People  don't really use their things nowadays like their trap  line, but they go and hunt there.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     I Understand, Thomas, that you have described some of  the methods of fishing to me, and I'm sorry I have to  ask you again, but it's important for the Court that  this is the time what you describe now as what the  lawyer for the government can hear and also what the  judge can hear, and that's why I'm asking you these  questions again.  Except for what the government lawyer may have to  ask you,  I can assure you that we won't be asking you  these questions again and bothering you once we're  finished with the same questions.  Did you see a method of fishing or where a net was  made out of deer hide and I believe it ' s called Bana in  Gitksan?  A     Yes, they did use it. I did use it.  Q     And Was deer hide Or moose hide Or goat  hide used to  make the net?  A       They used any  kind of hide.   There is  moose  and mountain  goat, different  kinds. Q     Andwhen it  was put together to catch the fish, was it        like a basket or a  bag for the fish to go into?  A     It's just like a drift net.  One person  could use it.  I watched William MacLean using it.  Q     Is it Darticularly used in eddies, that  is in back  eddies in the canyon? Is that where you saw it used?  A     They don't use the Bana when there is lots of fish  because there's too much work. They use fish traps  when there is lots of fish because they  could take the  fish trap out easily when they had enough fish. 2-101  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    I assume from what you have just said that they would  use the Bana when there were very few fish; is that  correct?  A    After all the fish is gone by, then they use the Bana  again. It could catch the steelhead in the spring.  Q     Would they build a platform to go out in order to use  the Bana, that is a platform over the water?  A     Yes, they did build a wharf-like platform where they  sit down to have chairs on there. And they'd sit on  there and they'd put the Bana in.  Q     You indicated that it's easier to take out the T'in or  fish trap.  THE INTERPRETER:  I forgot to mention that he said when the  fish come, when there is lots of fish, they take the  Bana out again. He said that again.  MR. GRANT: Okay.  That was just now?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, just now.  BY MR.  GRANT :  Q     You said that the fish trap or T'in is easier to take  OUt. Is the Bana, was it very big and heavy?  A     The Bana must not be too heavy, because William MacLean  was young just like I was at that time when he was using  it and he was using it alone and they wouldn't let  anybody like me go near the fishing sites because I'm  too old. And there has been a lot of deaths in the  canyon there.  Young children falling in and dying  there, that's why they call it Xsugwinlik'i'insxw.  Q     And what does that mean?  A     It's the bad water. That Water is mean, no good. It  takes away their nets at night. That's why they don't  leave their nets in at night.  Q     Returning to the Bana,  is it held, anchored by a rope  underneath the platform?  A     They use a rope and they use wire to build the wharf,  after the wire has been discarded.  Q     How many ropes are needed to operate the Bana?  A     They didn't use ropes. They used Mo'olkxw. That's  the bark from the tree.  At that time I never knew  anything, so I didn't really see how many ropes they  used.  Q     When the fish go in the Bana, would it close by itself  behind the fish, or does the person above the Bana  have to do something to catch the fish?  A     When the fish hits it, they let go of that rope they  are holding, and the thing closes like a bag around it  and the fish can't get out.  It's just like your 2-102  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Sleeping bag when you want to store it away, you close  it like that and it will seal.  Q     WOUld the people only catch one fish at a time in the  Bana usually?  A      About two fish  at a time.  And  that's what MacLean  did,  William MacLean.  He only got two fish and he left it  overnight and then they ate it next day because they  don't eat fish when it's still fresh.  Q     Is the Bana Shaped, was it shaped a round-shaped trap  or a rounded shape?  THE INTERPRETER:   He  has indicated a  circle like this.   That's  what 'Matxw was. It's wood.  I guess that's where the  Bana was attached.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Q     This 'Matxw, is it at the top of the Bana or is it all  the way along it?  A     It depends on what the person wants, whether he wants  one or two fish.  If he wants two fish, then he will  use a big  'Matxw.  It's kind of  hard to use  this because  when they want to fish, they have to pull the whole  thing out, the whole Bana. And then they have to open  it up and then get those two fish out.  Q     And I take it it would be because of the size of the  fish, it would be very heavy to pull out; is that the  problem?  THE INTERPRETER:  It was cumbersome, I guess.  MR. GRANT:  No, I want his answer, not yours.  THE INTERPRETER:  What did you say?  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Is it because it was too heavy with fish that it was  hard to pull out?  A     It must be quite heavy. That's why they quit using it  when the fish come. And they even take the fish trap  out and they just used gaffs. They used wire for the  gaffs.  Q     You said, you have described on many occasions that you  saw William MacLean using this Bana. William MacLean  is now dead? A     He  died a long time ago. It was his father's place  where he was at.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said, he mentioned Haiwas and Melulek.  I couldn't tell which one was his father. It's either  one of them.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q     You were about 14 years old when you saw William MacLean 2-103  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Use the net?  A     After I was married,  the Indians stopped taking fish.  Q     When you were about 14?  A     I don't usually go there to fish. I go there to check  the trap line and to keep the road open, you know,  slash.  Q     Were you still a boy when you saw William MacLean  fishing with the Bana?  THE INTERPRETER:  He was about 14 at the time.  I had to ask  him how old he was.  He said he was quite small, so I  asked him how old he was.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q     Did william MacLean hold the name Luudeldimtsimdak?  A     Yes, he did.  Q     And was he in the House Haadixs Laxnox?  A 'Niikyap just came recently. He is not registered at  Kisgagas.  He is from Gitangasx.  Q     And when 'Niikyap came from Gitangasx to Kisgagas, did  he take over Haadixs Laxnox fishing site or territory?  A     Xsugwinlik'i'insxw was open to anybody who wanted fish.  Chinese and white people used to come there and get  their own fish when they wanted it. There was no game  warden there, no fish warden at Kisgagas.  Q When you were a small boy and you saw William MacLean  fishing, was that before the white people had come to  Kisgagas?  A     The white people never came when William MacLean was  using that Bana. Underage kids weren't allowed to fish  at that place, but we were just fooling around at that  time, that's why we used it. And nobody such as myself,  who was too old, is allowed to go down there because  we're too weak. Just like my grandfather, he went down  there.  THE INTERPRETER:  And I don't know if he was referring to here  or Kisgagas.  My grandfather drowned when he was using  the Bana.  Hadakxwmxskiik was his name and he was too  old and too weak. That's why he drowned.  He mentioned  'Wiik'aax with Hadakxwmxskiik.  He said that was his  name.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q     Was your grandfather Hadakxwmxskiik who drowned?  A     There were three Hadakxwmxskiik.  One is buried in  Glen Vowell and one is from Kisgagas and he is also  'Wiik'aax.  Q     Did he drown at Kisgagas or somewhere else when he was 2-104  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Using the Bana?  A    He drowned here in Gitanmaaxs because he married somebody  from Gitanmaaxs, and this is where he was buried here.  Q    Did he drown before you were born?  Did this all happen  before you were born or in your lifetime?  A    There was three of them.  One died here, one died in  Kisgagas and one died in Glen Vowell.  That was Kenny  Campbell, and his name was 'Wiik'aax.  Q    You described earlier that one of your grandfathers,  whose name was Hadakxwmxskiik, died using a Bana at  Gitanmaaxs.  Did that happen in your lifetime?  A    My grandmother just told me about it.  It must have  happened,  I don't know how many hundreds of years ago.  Q    Now, the fishing site that William MacLean was using  the Bana at, did that fishing site belong to Melulek?  A    Yes, it was Melulek's.  That's the same family as Haiwas  That's Haiwas is MacLean's father.  Q    And William MacLean's father, who held the name Haiwas,  was also known as Thomas MacLean?  A    Yes, that's his name.  Q    And was the name of this fishing site known as Galee'?  A    Anyuusxw was where Hadakxwmxskiik died.  I never seen  -- those other ones died.  The only person I saw was  Kenny, and his name was Hadakxwmxskiik, the same as  'Wiik'aax.  Q    I probably confused you because I have been talking of  two different things.  Was the fishing site that  William MacLean was using, which was owned by Melulek,  was that site known as Galee' , and was it above the  present bridge at Kisgagas?  Q    Genuuhat'  is below the village, and Anyuusxw was across  from it.  It' s on this side of the bridge.  Q    And was William MacLean using the site known as Galee'?  A    No, he didn't. They took everything out of that place.  THE INTERPRETER:  And he said no to that question.  And he used  to use wires to get the fish out, sort of like a clamplike thing.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    I'll return to that, Thomas, in a moment, your answer.  But do you recall the name of the fishing site that  William MacLean used the Bana at?  A    The rocks were slippery there, and nobody could stand  on them.  MS. MARSDEN: Could you repeat that word?  THE INTERPRETER: Gwustakaheetxwt. It's just like the wall  of the house, can't stand on it. That's what he meant 2-105  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  by the rocks were slipper .  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Just for the record , I'll put on that the person  spelling the names asked for clarification.  MR. GRANT:  And you have no objection to that?  MR. 0'BYRNE:  No, I have no objection.  I just wanted to get  on the record where the other question came from.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    And where is this site that you just described?  Is it  on the same side of the canyon as the Village of  Kisgagas?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said Anyam was also Melulek's. And they  used a 40-foot pole with a gaff on it to get the fish  up, and he said that.  MR. GRANT:  At Anyam?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, and he said that Martha Haimadim said  that was their fishing spot. She was mistaken when  she said that.  MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, you have given four names,  I  believe, of fishing sites.  THE INTERPRETER:  Of Melulek's.  MR. GRANT:  And I just want to be sure we have them all on the  record.  One was Anyam.  THE WITNESS:  Anyam.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    Another Galee' , Genuuhat' , the other was --  THE INTERPRETER:  The one you mentioned --  MR. GRANT:  The one where William  MacLean was which was  mentioned earlier.  THE INTERPRETER:  Gwustakaheetxwt.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Does Galee' mean, does that mean rose hips in Gitksan?  A    Wild tomatoes.  They are on trees and they have a lot  of seeds inside them.  THE INTERPRETER:  They are on bushes he said, not trees.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    Did they grow near this site? Is that why it was  called that name?  A    There were lots there, but the white people came with  a lot of things like jam. So they didn't care about  it.  They quit a lot of things ever since the white  people came here. Everybody slacken off on what they  have been doing such as with fish.  Q    Did 'Wiik'aax have a site across from Genuuhat' , one 2-106  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  of the sites of Melulek, called Saxwxsa'amuuest? How  I have spelled it is S-A-X-W-X-S-A-'-A-M-U-U-E-S-T.  Now, that's not necessarily --  MR. 0'BYRNE:  And again, you spelled that for the translator's  benefit.  MR. GRANT:  I have written it out for him to help him pronounce  it.  THE INTERPRETER:  The new generation called Saxwgwanks, but  it's called Saxwxsa'amuuest.  MR. GRANT: For the record, it appeared that he gave you that  name before you mentioned the name to him.  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  I couldn't read your pronunciation here  so I asked what was ' Wiigyet' s fishing hole across from  Genuuhat' . I couldn't read your pronunciation here.  So  he said Saxwxsa'amuuest.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Did the people at Kisgagas fish when the water was low  in the river at the canyon?  A    It was after they fished, they finished fishing when I  got back to Kisgagas.  I was just a baby.  I was born  in 1900, September 7.  Q    Was the site known as Anyam, this is one of Melulek's  sites you have mentioned.  Was it used for gaffing or  spearing fish?  A    They got a lot of fish there, and they just give it out  to the people. They don't sell it.  Underage people  and elders such as I aren't allowed to.  Q    Was one of the methods of fishing on Anyam with a gaff?  A    That's why they fixed it,  so they could gaff the fish.  They went after springs there.  Q    And Anyam is on the village side of the canyon and it's  upstream of the bridge;  is that right?  A    It was up from the bridge, up-river from the bridge.  It's near Txa'anlaxhatxw.   I never did see.  Q    Did Xsimxsan, your father, have a fishing site at  Kisgagas known as Wilnatxesxw?  I'll just check with  the person writing the words.  Txa'anlaxhatxw and Xsimxsan had the same fishing area.  Txa'anlaxhatxw was born at the Nass and Xsimxsan was  born at Kisgagas and they shared the same lands and the  same fishing holes.  Q    Was one of those sites that was shared by Txa'anlaxhatxw  and Xsimxsan known as Wilnatxesxw.  They didn't use a  fish trap there when I seen it. They just used a gaff  to get springs and all that.  MR. GRANT:  I 'm going to ask The Interpreter, is there part of 2-107  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  that name that refers to a fish trap?  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Perhaps you should go off the record.  MR. GRANT:    Off the record then.      OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT:    When we were off the record I just asked The  Interpreter if Wilnatxesxw was referring to a fish  trap.  Could you ask Mr. Thomas Wright?  Q    Thomas, what does Wilnatxesxw mean?  You can ex%lain  it, although he has given that answer off the record,  we just have to record it.  A    This kid was looking over into the canyon and his  mother didn't know that he was missing and she was  looking for him. She saw him looking into the canyon  and she got scared and she ran toward him and she  shouted, and that kid got scared and instead of saving  the kid, that woman caused the kid to fall over because  she shouted.  And the kid must have got scared and  stumbled over.  Q    And did he drown?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes, he did.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    And does the name Wilnatxesxw refer to a fishing site  that's on this side of the Kisgagas Canyon, up-river  from the bridge?  A    It was up-river from the bridge, below the houses.  Q    Now, did you see a T'in or fish trap that was used at  Melulek's fishing site in your lifetime?  A    I did see it. I didn't see them putting it in. It  was after the fish came that I seen it, after they  took enough fish out,  then they took it out. There  was 12 smokehouses.  Q    Was this trap that you saw being pulled out at the  fishing site known as a Genuuhat'?  A    Yes, it was a Genuuhat' . It was Melulek's, and I  never seen Txa'anlaxhatxw's.  MR. GRANT:  Txa' anlaxhatxw' s own fish trap?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Can you describe for us how the T'in   at Genuuhat'  was used?  A    I didn't see them putting it in, so I can't tell you  about the mechanics of it working.  Q    Is there a name for the part of the fish trap that the 2-108  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  fish go into that you were told about, if you didn't  see it?  A Ga'iigoosx, they go up the Woo'oo and fall backwards  Ga'iigoosx, they go up the Woo'oo and fall backwards  in the Hlemgan. The Hlemgan is the container.  Q    And how long or how big would this fish be? Would it  be as long as this room, for example, or would it be  much shorter?  THE INTERPRETER:  I think I made a mistake there. He said  they go up the Woo'oo and they fall backwards after  they come up the Ga'iigooxs, and then they fall into  the Hlemgan. His father has told him about this.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Is the opening in which the fish go in, is it quite  small, or is it wide at the ends where they start  coming in, and does it narrow afterwards?  A    It must be quite heavy, the T'in, because it takes a  lot of people to put it in. And when we're small, we  used to make a lot of noise, and our mother used to  tell us it sounds like you guys are putting the T'in  in because our voices were loud.  Q    Is the opening big enough for only one fish?  A    There were a lot of fish that go up there. There were  12 Wilpsehon and in one day all those Wilpsehon would  be filled up.  Q    wilpsehon is a smokehouse?  A    Yes.  Q    Is there another fishing site in the canyon known as  Ts'oolixs?  A    It's Ax'moogoosxw.  They don't use it now. I never  saw them use the fish trap at Ax'moogoosxw territory.  I just saw the ones I mentioned.  Q    What does the name Ts'oolixs mean?  A    That's where the river branches off and there is an  island between them, and it's the smaller part of the  river,  it's similar to the one down below. There is  a slough there and that's where the T'in was at, at  the smaller part of the river.  Q    When you saw the T'in being used at Genuuhat' or the  fish coming out of it, was this when you were a boy  or when you were a man?  Can you recall approximately  how old you were?  A    I was raised at Blackwater, but I was born at Kisgagas.  When I was at Blackwater there was a lot of fish there  but all they ate was meat, because I guess that is  what they liked to eat and that's all they gave me.  They gave me beaver meat and mountain goat meat, all 2-109  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  kinds of meat, but we hardly had any fish.  This was  in Blackwater, where 'Wiiminoosikx lived.  He is my  grandfather.  You described earlier that you saw a T'in being used  at Melulek' s site. Was this around the same time that  you saw Willy MacLean use the Bana, or was it before  or after?  THE INTERPRETER:  I forgot to mention,  I was quite small. He  went into.  He was quite small at that time.  I could  hardly remember anything.  I was just starting to  remember things but I could hardly remember anything at  that time.  MR. GRANT: If his answer is quite lengthy, I think you should  suggest to him to just hold while you give a partial  translation,  if you are having trouble with that.  Q     Did Gwininitxw have a fishing site at Kisgagas where  he gaffed?  A     Ksemgitgiigyenix was the person that held that place,  some of you guys' relatives.  He used Hlaxwlo'op.  Q     And do you recall who held the name Gwininitxw?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said Solomon Jack was the man that held  it now.  He's got all the land and fishing holes. He  is a Norwegian.  He is one that's holding the name  Gwininitxw.  I'm sorry, I want to clarify this.  Q     Is the person who is holding the name Gwininitxw now  a Gitksan or a white person?  A     His mother was Indian, from Kisgagas, and his grandfather was Indian, an Indian from Kisgagas.  His name  was Gwininitxw.  Q     Did you assist in the burial of his grandfather?  A     Yes, I did.  Q     And did his family give you rights to use some territory  of Gwininitxw?  A     Just part where Stuart River, the rivers meet there,  near Bear Lake. That's where.  Q     And were you given the rights to use that territory  because you helped to pay for the funeral expense for  Gwininitxw?  A     Yes, that's why they gave it to me and to this day I  haven' t used it yet. I haven't seen that land yet.  Q     Was there a fishing site held by Gyedimgaldo' o at  Kisgagas known as Ansagamanhakwhl?  A     Ansagamanhakwhl is the name of the fishing site at  Gitanmaaxs?  THE INTERPRETER: He doesn't have a house there.  He's got a  house here in Kisgagas, I mean he pointed here. 2-110  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     And did the people in the old days gaff at  Ansagamanhakwhl?  A     I used to try it when I was quite young and the only  things that I used to gaff were stones.  Did James White hold the name Gyedimgaldo'o?  A     He held it just recently.  There has been a lot of  Gyedimgaldo'os that I saw die that died here.  Q     Do you recall the name of the first Gyedimealdo'o that  you remember?  A     My grandmother had a sister and she had a son. He is  the one, the first one I knew that was Beal Muldoe's  mother.  Q     Did Beal Muldoe's mother have another name besides  Gyedimgaldo'o?  In other words, did she have a white  man' s name, or a name given to her by the white people?  A     I never did see them, but I did see Bill Muldoe' s  mother in 1908.  MR. GRANT:   Okay. We' 11 go off the record for changing the  tape.      OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION      SHORT RECESS  BY MR . GRANT :  Q     Is it correct that the earliest person who held the  name Gyedimgaldo'o that you remember was Beal Muldoe's  mother was the first one that held. His name was  Ts'awats'ekxw.  He never did have a white man's name.  He was the one that first had that name.  Q     First had the name Gyedimgaldo'o?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Do you remember when he died, how old you were?  A     It was 1908 when I seen him here at Gitanmaaxs.  And  after I was   out in the bush   again,  that   is when he  died. Q     You mentioned  earlier that Gyedimgaldo'o had left  Kisgagas.  Had Gyedimgaldo'o left Kisgagas long before  you were born?  A     I never did see him at Kisgagas.  James White -- I came  to it in 1906.  That's when I started realizing things.  I don't remember any of them there.  Q     Did your grandmother or grandfather or your father  tell you when Gyedimgaldo'o had left Kisgagas? 2-111  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A She never mentioned anything to me, my grandmother. She  didn't expect the white man to come here. She said this is our  land and nobody expected that the white people  would come here. We were the first ones on this world.  Q     Was the name of your grandmother who told you that,  Haadit?  A     Yes, it was Haadit. My grandmother's name was Haadit  so my mother took that name after she died.  Q      And was  Haadit your grandmother  who taught  you, was  that  the same person as your mother's mother?  A     That's the same person.  That's my mother's mother.  She had the name Haadit and my mother took it after  she died.  It's that way with the Indians.  Names are  passed down from generation to generation.  The name  is not lost.  Q     Was Haadit the same grandmother who taught you the  history of Ts'ooda that you described on the last day?  A     Yes, she is the same person.  She is the person that  told me the story. She said that Ts'iiwa was the first  man on this earth and as she was talking, she was also  being helped out by my grandfather, her husband.  And  they both told me the story of Ts'iiwa and they said  that the Indians were the first ones on this world.  Q     I'd like to return to clarify, just to finish the questions that I had about the Kisgagas fishing sites. Was  there a site known as Hlaxwlo'op, which was held by  Ksemgitgiigyenix's people?  A     Nobody's got it now because Ksemgitgiigyenix died and  Gwininitxw died.  THE INTERPRETER:  I couldn't pronounce what he just said.  I  think he meant Ksemgitgiigyenix.  MR. GRANT: Yes, that was the name I was trying to pronounce.  Q     Is there a fishing site named Hlaxwlo'op and if there  is, can you describe the meaning of that name?  A     There is a rock on the water and when the tide -- well,  it's not the tide -- when the river laps back and forth,  it would seem to lift off the water, and you could see  fish underneath that rock. Q     Did  people gaff for fish at that site?  A     When the water goes down, that' s when they gaff there.  Rain brings water up quite fast, that's why they call  it Xsugwinlik'i ' insxw, because it's a bad area.  Q     And is this up-river or down-river from the bridge, this  site?  A     It's only a few feet away from Wilnatxesxw.  Q     And did people fish for sockeye and cohoe at that  fishing site? 2-112  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A    They just picked out which fish they wanted.  If they  wanted cohoe, they'd pick that.  If they wanted sockeye,  they'd pick that.  If they wanted steelhead, they'd  pick that.  Q    Do you recall at some time when you were at Kisgagas  that the canyon would be full of fish coming up the  river?  THE INTERPRETER:  He remembers  when the rivers were just dry  with fish, that river.  They would throw a rock, there  is all kinds of fish.  But there were quite a few humps  mixed with those fish. They would stand on the bridge  and throw a rock down there and the rock wouldn't sink  down to the water because the river was packed with  fish.  It will stay on top of the fish and won't sink  in, and his father used to tell him don't play with  the fish.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    You mentione that you stood on a bridge. Was this  when you were a boy?  A    I was just a little boy. I never did help out with  the fish.  Was this bridge that you stood on, was it a bridge  built by the people of Kisgagas?  A    Yes, that's the one.  They made quite a few bridges.  Q    Was that in about the same location as the bridge that  is presently there?  A    It's the same place.  Q    Did your family, when you were at Kisgagas, did your  family dry fish and smoke fish?  A    No, they didn't.  I got a lot of relatives from Galdo'o  and Kispayaks and they come there and don't dry fish.  Q    When you went out on the trapping grounds with your  father, did he prepare the fish to take out on the  trapping grounds?  A    Yes, that's why I saw them living in the smokehouse.  I didn't live in the smokehouse myself.  I was living  outside in a tent.  Q    And Was this one of the 1? smokehouses you described  yesterday?  THE INTERPRETER:  It was his grandfather's, Txa'anlaxhatxw  and Wilpsehon smokehouse.  It wasn't his own.  BY MR . GRANT :  Q     Did your father or your family pack the fish after  they were dried in something called T'akhl?  A     They did make bundles out of the fish. And they stashed 2-113  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Some of the fish and they took some with them.  And they  hired somebody to look after the rest in the smokehouse.  Q     Did you see the smokehouses at Kisgagas being used after  you were married?  A     There were lots of people that had smokehouses there,  but at that time we never used it ourselves.  Q     Did your family, when you were small,  store fish for  the winter?  A     They used to store it in -- they used to use a ladder  to go up the Anyuusim Gan. It's a small little building  on top on stilts.  Q     And was that building in the village, or was it outside  of the village?  A     It could be standing anywhere.  Q     Do you remember where your family's was? Was it in  the village?  A     It was near my father's house in Kisgagas.  Q     Do you recall if any of the family stored the fish under  the ground in pits?  A     At that time when I was there, they quit using those  cellars. And the only thing that I seen was  Anyuusim Gan on the stilts.  Q     Were there other old fishing villages near Kisgagas  along the river?  A     No, it was all Kisgagas' own. Outsiders never came  and used them.  Q     Do you know of a place called Anlagasemdeex?  A     Maybe I wasn't born at that time;  I don't remember.  THE INTERPRETER:  Is that the right pronunciation?  THE WITNESS:  It's the one that's down-river from Kisgagas,  Anlagasemdeex.  BY MR . GRANT :  Q     And was it On the Babine River as Well?  THE INTERPRETER:  It's the same as the village, it's the same.  MR. GRANT:  The same river as the village is on?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    Was there another Old fishing village called Laxts'ap?  A    Anlaeasemdeex is the same as.  THE INTERPRETER:  I think he is getting tired.  MR. GRANT:  What' s the answer?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said they weren't using that much fish  when I was born. All the fishing spots at Kisgagas,  nobody owns them now. They weren't using them that  much at that time. 2-114  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR. GRANT:   Thomas, I ' d like to adjourn over now until this  afternoon, and I'll finish this discussion of the  fishing sites when we come back and then we'll just  have a few more questions for you.      RECESSED FOR LUNCH      UPON RESUMING  BY MR . GRANT :  Q     Was there an old village in the old days near Kisgagas  which was used for fishing called Genimsmex?  A     It's right near Kisgagas.  It's part of Kisgagas.  Q     And Was there also another place which was used as a  fishery in the old days called Laxts'ap?  A     The village of -- ?  MR. GRANT:  The one I gave.  THE INTERPRETER:  No, it was all one village before.  It  wasn't that reserve, just that reserve.  It extended  all the way to Saxwhlaks. It was William Jackson that  had something to do with it, and his name was 'Wiigyet.  BY MR . GRANT :  Q     Was there a place that you know of that was an old  fishing village or fishing site near Kisgagas called  Gwit Ts'ilaasxwt?  A     It was 'Wiiminoosikx, my mother's father.  Q     Do you recall a fishing village near Kisgagas that was  used in the old days called Tsuwinluugeets?  A     That was in Baskyelaxha.  Q     Now, I'd like to clarify just something about your own  early years, Thomas.  Is it correct that you went with  your grandfather,  'Wiiminoosikx, to the Blackwater  area? And your early years after you were born you  spent in the Blackwater territory?  A     I always went to see my grandfather there. It's just  like you with Beal Muldoe. You get lonely for him  too.  Q     Did you stay with your grandfather at Blackwater for  part of the year, or did you stay there with him for  a number of years together?  A     I went there very long. I was with my mother when she  went there and she was with my brothers and sisters.  One Gas Simon and one was Fanny.  She's got a lot of  kids. 2-115  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q     What time Of year would you go Up to 'Wiiminoosikx  territory at Blackwater?  A     Sometimes when we go there, I would go on the ice on  the river, and sometimes we walk on land, on the trail  they use in summertime.  Q     Do you remember how many times approximately you went  up to the Blackwater area with your mother?  A     No, I don' t. We were always going back and forth. It  was many times. They got their fish from Nass River  and we got ours from Skeena.  Q     Was the Blackwater area held by 'Wiiminoosikx?  A     Yes, that's possible.  It must have been going on for  years and years. I didn't feel it.  Q     Is Laxts'ap, the fishing village I referred to earlier,  was it down-river from Kisgagas?  THE INTERPRETER:  In wintertime it's about three miles away  and when you walk on land -- in summertime he said  that. In wintertime we go on the ice and it's quick  to get there.  He mentioned the name Galanimhlo'o.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Is that the name of a place?  A     Galanimhlo'o is where you walk and then behind  Galanimhlo'o.  THE INTERPRETER:  He doesn't know what it means.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Was Genimsmex, Was it located Up-river of Kisgagas  about five miles?  A     Yes, it is up-river, and it's not that far.  We used  to walk up there and I used to set traps there to catch  Nis'in.  THE INTERPRETER:  Now I'm trying to find out what it is.  MR. GRANT : For the record, The Interpreter has a Gitksan/  English dictionary.  THE INTERPRETER:  Nis'in, that's mink.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     And Was Gwit Ts'ilaasxwt, was it located less than 10  miles up-river of Kisgagas?  A     It's not very far from Genimsmex.   I used to go there  at night and visit my mother and father, my parents,  and they used to come and catch some fish there. They  never dried it. They just ate it the way it was.  Q     Did you see old smokehouses at Ax'moogoosxw and  Gyatsees?  THE INTERPRETER:  Did you mention those names already? 2-116  WRIGHT,T.  In <  Chief  Mr.  Grant  MR.  GRANT :  No .  THE  WITNESS:  They  BY  MR. GRANT  Q  Did you see  A  I seen  one  THE  INTERPRETER:  were all down when I was born at Genimsmex.  the remains of those smokehouses?  fish trap there at Genimsmex.  I think he misunderstood me.  I just asked  if there are any things left at those fishing spots.  He said he just saw one of them. I didn't ask if there  is any smokehouses.  MR. GRANT: Well,  I want you to ask him if he saw the remains  of any smokehouses at Ax'moogoosxw or Gyatsees?  MS. MARSDEN: Those are people's names.       OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT: My apologies to Thomas.  My own note was confusing  and I asked him about places and actually I gave him  people's names.  Q     Thomas, I'd like to leave the fishery now and ask you  a few questions about the Wolf Clan at Kisgagas, just  to clarify a number of points.  Was Beal Muldoe, was his name Ha'idax?  A     Yes, his name was Ha'idax.  Q     And 'Wiik'aax is in Tsimgaak's house?  A     Yes, that's true.  Q     And was Gyit'ax,  spelled G-Y-I-T-'-A-X, your grandfather?  THE INTERPRETER:   He never heard that name before, Gyit'ax.  First time he heard that when you mentioned it.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q     Who was the first person to use the name Spookx, to  your knowledge?  A     He is a Hagwilget.  Q     Do you recall if that person had another name before  he acquired the name Spookx?  A       I don't know.  He  must have had  a lot of other  names,  but I don't live at Hagwilget.  I live at Kisgagas.  Johnson Alexander took that name and he took it to  Prince George.  What's where Spookx strength is now.  Q     Was Johnson Alexander a Gitksan or a Wet'suwet'en?  A     He was a Hagwilget.  Johnny Patsy and Frank Clark and  T.M. -- I forgot that name -- and Steve Robinson.  Steve Robinson took that name here, but it's not very  strong here. Johnson Alexander took that name from  John Patsy. They were fighting over that name.  That  name has its strength in Prince George. That's where 2-117  WRIGHT,T.  In  Chief  Mr.  Grant  it is now  THE  1  INTERPRETER  remember,  BY  MR. GRANT :  Q  So John so:  Oh, Tom Muldoe is that one I couldn't  T.M. They were fighting over that name.  Alexander was fighting over the name with  Johnny Patsy?  THE INTERPRETER:  Johnny Patsy was the name that died when they  took that name. He said that Johnson Alexander said  that Johnny Patsy was his uncle.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q     Now,  is Johnny Patsy Gitksan, or was he a Hagwilget?  A     He is a Hagwilget.  Q     Were there two persons with the name Amagyet?  A     There is one person using it in Gitangasx and one in  Kisgagas.  I haven't found out yet why they are doing  that.  Q     Did either of them have a house of their own,  that is  a house with a name?  A    Amagyet doesn't have a house in Kisgagas and none here.  Q     Are they close?  Is Amagyet close to Yagosip?  A     No.  Q     Is Yagosip and 'Wiik'aax close?  A     Yes, they are close.  Q     Do you recall a man named Robert Angus, and what Indian  name did he hold?  A     His name was Yagosip. He was quite old when I seen him.  Q     Do you recall who took his name, when Robert Angus died?  A     James May.  He is my relative.  Q     And did he leave Kisgagas?  A     He must have left a long time ago because I didn't feel  him going.    There are a lot  of women here.    That's why  all the Kisgagas moved here. Q     Were  'Wiik'aax and Yagosip related?  A     Yes, they are related. Yagosip is a relative.  Q Is Yagosip using  part of Ts'iiwa's  lands because  of  their relationship? A     Yes, he  sometimes does.  Q     Did Gwininitxw from Kisgagas take the name Aspaguhlbax?  THE INTERPRETER:  I said the wrong name.  MR. GRANT:  I asked if Gwininitxw took that name.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said that was Gwininitxw's name, not  Yagosip's name.  I made a mistake.  BY MR.  GRANT :  Q     Was Gwininitxw and Aspaguhlbax closely related to 2-118  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  'Wiik'aax?  A     Yes, they are close, but they are only relatives. They  are not really that strong.  Q     When you say they are close,  they are relatives but not  that strong --  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR . GRANT:  Q      By that answer do you mean they are not in the same  house?  A     They are not from the house.  They are not in the same  house, but Gwininitxw built a house at Kisgagas and he  came out of 'Wiik'aax house.  Q      Did Tommy 'Wiik'aax hold the name Aspaguhlbax?  A     No.  Q      I'm referring to a person who held that name who is at  Kitwancool.  A     He was reincarnated to somebody at Kitwancool.  When I  die, then I might come back into a different village  and like Kitwancool.  Q      I'd just like to ask you to return to the history you  told us of Ts'ooda. You described the last time we  were talking about 'Wiik'aax and Ts'ooda migrating to  Kisgagas. Did they stop at Gitangasx on the way to  Kisgagas?  A     Gitangasx was on the other side of Kisgagas.  It's near  Bear Lake, it's quite far.  Q     Well, you described how Ts'ooda and 'Wiik'aax went to  the Yukon and came back down to Kisgagas.  On the way  down from the Yukon, did they stop at Gitangasx?  A     No, I didn't see it, I wasn't born yet.  Q      I understand very well that you weren't born at this  time, Thomas. This is part of the history that your  grandmother told you.  Do you recall whether she mentioned whether they  stopped at Gitangasx when she talked to you about this?  A Yes,  it was my grandmother  Haadit that told  me the  story. But she has no business with with Gitangasx.  Gitangasx are Galdo'o people.  Q      That answer is Gitangasx are Galdo'o people?  A     Yes.  Q      Did your grandmother or anyone else tell you why  Gitangasx people were called old people? In other  words, why the people from one village went to the  other?  A The people from the east  used to fight them  all the  time. That's why they came to Gitangasx and they ran 2-119  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  away to Gitangasx and then they went to Galdo'o after  that.  Q     Now you refer to the people from the east. Were these  people called Ts'ets'aut?  A     I didn't know their names, but I know that Ts'ets'aut,  they're from far away.  Q     Were they from the Stikine or from some other area?  A     Stikine are different from Ts'ets'aut.  A lot of our  people are from Stikine.  Tommy Jack and 'Wiiminoosikx  and 'Wiik'aax are from there. We're mixed with them.  Q     Were they from the area, have you heard of the people  known as the Kaska or the Kaska Dene' ?  A     No.  Q     Were the Ts'ets'aut from the north and the east?  A     They're from the east.  The Stikine and us, and we  don't understand their language.  Q     What is the name that you knew the people from the  Babines as?  A     Gitgwooyim.  Q     Did they fight with the people from Kisgagas or did  the people from Kisgagas fight with them?  A     Nekt was the only one that fought with them and he  killed them off at one time because they killed Nekt' s  nephew.  He killed a grizzly bear and he used the skin  of the grizzly bear and he pretended he was a grizzly  bear and he walked up to the village and they killed  him off.  Q     Was this the Babine people? A     The  people from Gitanmaas , they call it Fort Babine  nowadays.  Q     Did you know of a group  of people known as Tsimyip?  A     I don't know them personally, but I did hear about the  people of Tsimyip. Nekt is the only one that I know  of that killed them off.  Q     Were the people that he  killed off, are they the same  as the Tsimyip?  A     It was the people that lived in the ground. That's  theoneNekt killedoff. Q     Have  you heard of people known as the Lax'wiiyip? And  where did they live?  A     Where the Stikine people, Lax'wiiyip,  that's the name  of their village, Lax'wiiyip.  Q     And are they the people, when you refer to the Stikine  people, is that where you are referring to the people  that are from Telegraph  Creek area?  A     Yes, they are the ones.  That's what they're called,  Lax'wiiyip.  The village is called Lax'wiiyip. 2-120  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q     How long would it take the people in the old days to  walk from Kisgagas to Lax'wiiyip?  A     It takes them quite a long time to get to Lax'wiiyip,  and Tommy Hankin is there.  My brother Simon, he went  there also.  Q     Now, is Kisgagas as old or older than Gitangasx?  A     Kisgagas was the first one, then the village down here  were. And then some of them went east.  MR. GRANT: He is referring to the villages down here. Did  he refer along the Skeena?  THE WITNESS: Yes, they are the ones.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Was T'emlaxamit, Was it as Old as Or older than Kisgagas  A     That's where everybody started at the T'emlaxamit.   We  came from there and then migrated up to the Yukon and  then came back to Kisgagas, and some of the villages  that were formed here and all the way down to the Nass  and Port Simpson.  Q     You said earlier that the people from Galdo'o fought  with the Ts'ets'aut. Did the people from Kisgagas  fight with the Ts'ets'aut as well?  A     The Kisgagas people killed off a lot of them. And Laats  was one of the ones that killed a lot of them.  Q     Was this the Ts'ets'aut that they killed a lot of?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, they are.  MR. GRANT: Just go off the record for a moment, please.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Was One Of the early holders of the name 'Wiiminoosikx,  when you were very, very small yourself, William Dennis?  A     Lax'wiiyip is where William Dennis came from. He was  holding Axtsiina, but he was still on 'Wiiminoosikx  lands.  Q     And did he take the name 'wiiminoosikx at any time?  A     He only held Axtsiina that I could recall.  He brought  it back from Telegraph Creek, Lax'wiiyip. 2-121  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    Did William Dennis die at Bear Lake?  A    Yes, he did die there.  Q    You mentioned that your grandfather held the name  'Wiiminoosikx. Did he have another name?  A    Txa'anlaxhatxw and 'Wiiminoosikx are in the same house.  I saw three 'Wiiminoosikx.  One died in Kispayaks and  my father is a holder of the land now.  Q    You say you saw three 'Wiiminoosikx.  Your grandfather  was one of the 'Wiiminoosikx; is that right?  A    Whoever got 'Wiiminoosikx,  that's my grandfather.  That's the Indian law. A lot of 'Wiiminoosikx died  before the time he was mentioning.  And now it's the  new generation.  There are still 'Wiiminoosikx.  Q    Was one of the holders of that name 'Wiiminoosikx  Jimmy Blackwater?  A    He took it, but he died at Kispayaks too.  Q    Now,  is the Blackwater area, is that part of the Gitksan  people's territory?  A    Yes, that's it.  Q    Was it ever part of the Nishga territory, to your  knowledge?  A    No, they didn't lay claim to it.  Q    When you went up there and visited as a young boy,  were there ever any, were there ever any Nishga in  the Blackwater area?  A    No, I didn't see any.  It was after I started coming,  I was about six years old. That's when I was up there  with my mother to visit my grandfather and I never did  see any Nishga there.  Q    Do you know how far away the Nishga boundary was from  Blackwater, where the Nishga people's territory started  from the Blackwater area?  A    It must be a long distance.  The steamboat got all the  way up to Telegraph Creek. There is one river that  flowed.  It was called Xsi Txemsem.  It went toward  the Nishga.  And there was three rivers that flowed  into one river.  Q    If you had gone down at Xsi Txemsem, was there a place,  a river or mountain where the Nishga territory would  start?  That is the boundary between the Nishga people's  territory and the Gitksan people's territory?  A    I was prospecting, and we never did go down to  Xsi Txemsem.  Our strength was held in the east.  Q    Do people go back to Kisgagas now and use the fishing  sites there, to your knowledge, or use the land there?  A    Yes, they do use it.  It's because it's their lands.  That' s why they use it. 2-122  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    Did your brother Henry go up there before he died?  A    It was after the white people got here and Henry  just worked in the pole camps.  I did too.  Q    Did the Gitksan chiefs of Kisgagas who you have  described over the last few days, ever give up their  territory, to your knowledge? In other words, ever  give their territory away to anybody else?  A    No, they didn't give it away.  Q    Do you recall Charles Martin and James White and  Gyedimgaldo' o going to Ottawa when you were a small  boy?  A    Yes,  I do remember.  I was quite small.  I don't know  what year it was.  They lied to us. They said they  won.  Q    Do you remember why did the people tell you that they  went to Ottawa?  A    They said they were going to go there and raise the  land question. The white people were trying to take  our land and they are going to bring it up to the  government.  And when they came back, they said they  won.  Q    Do you remember anything else they said when they came  back?  In other words, what had they won?  A    When they went to Ottawa, they got some money. They  had a lot of money when they came back.  They had a  good time when they came back.  They said they won and  they were just lying.  Q    I'd just like to clarify a Couple of things you said  in the last few days.  You referred to Pete Muldoe as holding a name  'Wiik'aax.  Is Pete Muldoe a Gitksan?  A    Yes, he is.  Q    Is Neil Sterritt Senior a Gitksan?  A    He is an Indian.  MR. GRANT:   Okay, "e can go off the record for a couple of  minutes.      OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Can Guuhadakxw speak on behalf of yourself?  That is  Guuhadakxw on behalf of the House of Guuhadakxw?  A    Yes, he can.  Q    You described the other day that the people went and  fought fires, fought a big lightning fire, the people  of Kisgagas. Did they tell you how they fought that  fire?  What did they do to try to stop the fire? 2-123  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A     After they got there it was 'Wiiminoosikx territory.  After they got there they just came home because it  was just out of control.  Q     You described the other day when we were talking about  I believe it's the Sesatxw, preparing for the hunt, the  use of a plant called Is'mskaniist. Is the root of that  plant known as 'Melgwesxw, or is it a different plant?  A     They differ greatly.  Is'mskaniist is from the water  and 'Melgwesxw is from the land.  Q     Does Is'mskaniist have a flower, or what are the shapes  of the leaves?    Can you  describe it a  bit for me so I  can understand what type of plant it is?  A     When I was going to see it, it doesn't have a flower.  But when my brother told me, showed me it,  it was just  about ready to flower.  My brother told me that it's a  good medicine because it cleans your blood and it cures  your sickness.  Q     Which brother of yours told you this and showed you?  A     Simon Wright, the oldest one.  Q     That Was simon Wright, you said?  A     Yes, he is very wise.  Q     There's been some confusion I think between -- with  the government lawyer and possibly even with myself --  from an answer you gave about going on your father's,  going out on your father's land.  I'm referring to the  time you went out when you were a young boy and your  father became sick.  Now, was 'Niist your father's father?  A     Yes, that's my father's father. He is my grandfather,  'Niist.  Q     And did your father and you have the right to go on  'Niist's territory because he was your father's father?  A     After my grandfather died, we can't go on that land  any more.  The 'Niist could go on their land, not us.  Q     But when you went on there with your father, was it  because of your rights through your grandfather that  you went on that land? A     He was  still alive, that's why we were able to go on  there, and after he died we weren't able to.  Q     Do you recall how old you were when he died, when 'Niist  died, that is?  A     My grandfather was still alive when me and my dad were  on that territory.  Now that he is dead,  it's his  descendants that will be on there.  Q     I had a very few more questions, but I think possibly  we should break now until the morning.  THE INTERPRETER:  Go ahead, you could ask it, he said. 2-124  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR. GRANT :  Okay.  Q    In February,  I asked you to describe the boundaries,  or how you got to 'Wiik'aax territory, and you described  Laats territory and 'Wiik'aax territory.  Can you tell  me the names of the Gitksan chiefs who held territory  surrounding Laats territory?  A    Laats was the only holder of those territories.  People  would come to him and ask for permission to go on a  certain piece of land and Laats would allow them to,  only if they asked Laats' permission can they go on  there.  MR. GRANT: We can go off the record for a moment, please.      OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    Thomas,  last night the lawyer for the government raised  with me that one of the areas of concern he had was  determining who were the chiefs who had territories  around the boundary of 'Wiik'aax territory.  And as a  result of that, I have discussed it with you and you  have given me some answers to that.  And the lawyer  for the Crown has indicated that he has no objection  on that basis to me leading in this area, as he is just  trying to determine who the holders are of those  territories.  You can translate for him, and then I am going to  ask you some questions about that.  When you described earlier going up to 'Wiik'aax  territory, you described how you went there from  Kisgagas.  And going from Kisgagas on the way to  'Wiik'aax territory, would you have to go through  'Wiiminoosikx territory?  A     We don't have to go through 'Wiiminoosikx territory to  get to 'Wiik'aax.  'Wiiminoosikx has a lot of land  because he surveyed the area himself.  That's why he's  got such a big area.  THE INTERPRETER:  Him and another person, it slipped my mind.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     You referred to Haadixs Laxnox before that. Is that  who you mean?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, he said another person's name and I  can't quite remember.  MR. GRANT: Ask him the other name.  THE WITNESS: Txa'anlaxhatxw,  that's who it is. 2-125  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    To get to 'Wiik'aax territory, you described that you  had to go across the Xsu'wiiaks.   Whose territory  was on the side of Xsu'wiiaks across from 'Wiik'aax  territory?  A    Xsu'wiiaks is the one that owns the part on this side.  He is the one that has the house. O'yee is different.  He is from Nass.  Q    Whose house is Haadixs Laxnox in?  A    It's Tsimganootsenex.  Q    And what clan is he in?  A    Wolf tribe.  Q    Now after you cross into 'Wiik'aax territory,  if you  travelled, walking in the direction with your back  to the Xsu'wiiaks and if you turned to your right and  walked, whose territory would be next to 'Wiik'aax on  that side?  A    'Wiiminoosikx, he's got a lot of land.  Q    If you travelled straight ahead through 'Wiik'aax  territory, after you crossed the Xsu'wiiaks, when you  came to the end boundary of 'Wiik'aax territory, whose  territory would you next cross into?  A    Gwininitxw land is toward Blackwater.  It's called  Black, the lake of the Black Water. Giis is his name.  Q    Now, if you went towards the Babine Lake or Takla Lake  from 'Wiik'aax territory, whose territory would you go  into?  A    When I go home from 'Wiik'aax territory to Takla Lake,  I reach all the way from Gitanmaaxs from there.  THE INTERPRETER:  He mentioned another name.  MR. GRANT: Babine?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, Babine.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q    Is Melulek's territory towards Takla Lake?  THE INTERPRETER:  He is tired.  MR. GRANT: Okay, we can adjourn until tomorrow.      PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4.15 P.M.  TO BE RESUMED FRIDAY, 2 MAY, 1986.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best  of my skill and ability.  BF/jg-May  11/86 BEVERLY FERGUSON  Official Court Reporter  B.C.S.R.A.  #259 2-126  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  NORMAN MOORE , Gitksan  Interpreter, Previously  Sworn.  THOMAS WRIGHT,  A Witness  on behalf of the Plaintiffs,  Previously Sworn, testifies  as follows:       UPON COMMENCING AT 10.15 A.M. , 2 MAY, 1986  MR. GRANT:  This is a continuation of the Commission Evidence  of Thomas Wright, May 2, 10.15, same parties as were  here yesterday.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT,  CONTINUED:  Q     Thomas, yesterday you mentioned that the people from  Blackwater, your grandfathers,   'Wiiminoosikx, they  fished at the black water.  Can you describe where  'Wiiminoosikx fishing site was on the black water?  A     It was right below 'Wiiminoosikx  house. The lake is  near 'Wiiminoosikx house and his fish trap is right  below his house where the lake drains out.  Q     What is the Gitksan WOrd for Black Water Lake?  A     It's called T'amt'uuts'xwmaks because you are on the  mountain and you look down and it looks like the  water is black. And the Skeena is called Xsiiyeen  because when you are up there again, you look down  and it looks like the water looks smokey and cloudy.  And we're not called Gitksan.  Q     I'm Sorry, we're not called Gitksan?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, because the river was Xsiiyeen. It's  called Xsiiyeen.  BY MR . GRANT :  Q      I'm sorry, we are called Gitksan or we are not called  Gitksan? I didn't get the answer that you gave.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said actually we are not Gitksan. But  the river isn't called Gitksan. It's called Xsiiyeen  but people call it Gitksan.  So I guess we're called  Gitksan although he pronounces it differently.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q I see.   Is there a name  for the creek  or river that  goes out of T'amt'uuts'xwmaks? 2-127  WRIGHT,T.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  A    Anseksmoohl.  It's called Xsi Txemsem too.  THE INTERPRETER:  I have to clarify this. He said it was  called Anseksmoohl, and I'm not too clear whether  it's called Xsi Txemsem too. Because he said there  are three rivers that drain into the Nass River.  BY MR . GRANT :  Q      What is the Indian WOrd, the Gitksan name for the Nass  River?  A     It's called Anseksmoohl and Xsi Txemsem.  Q      Does this Anseksmoohl drain into the Nass River?  A     Yes, it does go in. It's the same thing.  Q      Okay. That's the conclusion of my direct examination.  If you would answer the questions that Mr. 0'Byrne,  the government lawyer, will ask you.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  This is the commencement of the Cross-Examination  of Thomas Wright on the Commission Evidence.  And just  for the record, after the conclusion of the Direct  Evidence by Mr. Grant, there waa a discussion through  the Interpreter in the presence of Mr. Grant in regard  to some basic understanding of the witness Thomas  Wright and the lawsuit.  MR. GRANT:    For the record, he was asked if he knew about  the lawsuit and if he knew that the Gitksan were suing  the government and he indicated that he did after some  discussion through the Interpreter.  CROSS-EXAMINATION  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q      Now, Mr. Wright, your Indian name is Guuhadakxw;  is  that correct?  A     Yes, that is my grandfather's name. He was the same  as 'Wiik'aax, the same. Not the same person, but I  guess the same strength.  Q     Are you a member of the House of 'Wiik'aax?  A     That's where I came from.  Q     Are you a hereditary chief in the House of 'Wiik'aax?  A      I'm not a big chief in the House of 'Wiik'aax. I'm  not a chief in the House of 'Wiik'aax, but he gave me  the right to speak, my grandfather. Q    Is  Guuhadakxw a SUb-Chief in the House Of 'wiik'aax?      THE INTERPRETER:  I cleared it up with him.  He said again  that 'Wiik'aax and Guuhadakxw are the same. And I  asked him do they have the same strength and he said  yes, they do.  They have the same strength.  MR. 0'BYRNE: All right.  Q    At the feast, 'wiik'aax Can Speak for Guuhadakxw?  A    Yes, he can. 2-128  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  Q    Would 'Wiik'aax speak at the feast even if Guuhadakxw  was present?  MR. GRANT:    Sorry, I think you may have reversed what you  intended.  You asked if 'Wiik'aax can speak even if  Guuhadakxw is present.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  That's what I wanted.  THE WITNESS:  We were sitting in the feast hall one time and  'Wiik'aax asked me if I want to speak and I said no,  you could speak for me.  We have the same strength,  me and 'Wiik'aax.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Mr. Wright, who currently holds the name 'Wiik'aax?  A    Nobody has it presently.  Glen Vowell was where Kenny  Campbell died and he is the one that had 'Wiik'aax.  His name was Hadakxwmxskiik.  Q    Who then speaks on behalf of the House of 'Wiik'aax if  there is no 'Wiik'aax now?  A    I could speak for the House of 'Wiik'aax but the white  people wouldn't let me speak because they want Kisgagas.  Q    What White people won't let you speak on behalf of  'Wiik'aax?  A    Norwegian.  Q    Do you know the name of this Norwegian?  A    They're all over the world. They're amongst us in this  world.  They came from the Indians.  Is Neil  Benjamin Sterritt going to get the name  'Wiik'aax?  A    He could get it if he wants. If he can take it, then  he could.  He's sort of on the White Act, and that's  what they said to me too. I was going to take the  name.  That's why I didn't take it.  And if he wants  to take it, he could take it.  Q    If there was a feast held today, would you be authorized  to speak on behalf of the House of 'Wiik'aax?  A    They would let me, but right now I'm really sick. I  can't get around.  Q    If you were healthy, you would be able to speak on  behalf of the House of 'Wiik'aax then?  A    I could if I wasn't sick.  Q    Is there anybody else besides yourself who could speak  for 'Wiik'aax at a feast if one was held today?  A    There is a lot of them that could speak, a lot of  Kisgagas people that could speak for the House of  'Wiik'aax.  Hadakxwmxskiik and Guuhadakxw, there has  been a lot of 'Wiik'aax at Kisgagas. A lot of people  died there, the chiefs. 2-129  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  Q     If SOme Of the lands Of 'wiik'aax Were to be given to  a member of 'Wiik'aax house, could you give that land?  A    All the chiefs from Kisgagas will speak up and then I  would be able to give it.  Q     Would you have to ask the permission of the other chiefs  before you gave some land?  A     Yes, that's true. I can't give it away myself.  Q     Is it true that Guuhadakxw and 'Wiik'aax share the same  crest?  A     It's the same. We have the same house.  It's called  Tsimgaak.  Q     And do Guuhadakxw and Tsimgaak share the same land?  A     Guuhadakxw doesn't really necessarily want to go on  the land.  If he wants to go on the land, he will just  go there and get a grouse if he wants.  Q     Do you as Guuhadakxw own some specific land?  MR. GRANT:   Separate from 'Wiik'aax?  THE WITNESS: If he wants to use my land, he could and if I  want to use his land I could.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     Do you have to ask permission from 'Wiik'aax to use his  land?  A     If I wanted to use that land, I would have to ask  'Wiik'aax because he is the head chief and he is the  head chief of Kisgagas.  Q     Does 'Wiik'aax have to ask your permission to go on  Guuhadakxw land?  MR. GRANT:   Just a moment.  MR. 0'BYRNE: Do you want to go off the record?  MR. GRANT:   No, he has just said we have the same land, me  and 'Wiik'aax.  And you have just asked if he wants to  use 'Wiik'aax land.  Presumably on that answer, we're  talking about the same land. If he wants to use the  land, he has to use 'Wiik'aax. You are still talking  about the same land?  MR.  0'BYRNE:  Yes.  MR. GRANT :  I think that should just be made clear on the  question, that' s all.  MR. 0'BYRNE: Do you want the question read back?  THE INTERPRETER:  I think I could remember the question. You  asked if we -- you asked if 'Wiik'aax has to ask  permission to go on his land.  MR .  0'BYRNE:  Right.  THE WITNESS: Yes, he has to ask me, it's my land. 2-130  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Did 'wiik'aax give to Guuhadakxw certain land for  Guuhadakxw?  A      Their  land is practically  all of Kisgagas.   When I want  to go there, I could go there if I want to.  Q    Did 'Wiik'aax give to Guuhadakxw some specific land:  A     No,  it's the same land.   If he wants  to go on that land,  he will because he is related to 'Wiik'aax.  Q    Could a future 'Wiik'aax take away your right to go on  'Wiik'aax land?  A     No,  he doesn't have that  right because  it's the family's  own.  And he doesn't have the right to do that.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Off the record for a second for a tape change.      OFF THE RECORD  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Perhaps the Reporter could read back the last  question and answer?  THE REPORTER:  Question:  "Could a future Guuhadakxw take  away your right to go on 'Wiik'aax  land?"  Answer:   "No, he doesn't have that right  because it's the family's own and  he doesn't have the right to do  that."  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    When you say that it's the family's own, do you mean  it belongs to the members of the House of 'Wiik'aax?  A    Yes, that's true.  'Wiik'aax are really strong. They  were the ones that started the Indian people on this  earth.  Q    Do you share all of your lands with 'Wiik'aax?  MR. GRANT:   Objection.  I believe he has already described  that  'Wiik'aax and he have  the same lands  and therefore  he has answered that question.  MR. 0'BYRNE: Perhaps I' 11 rephrase it then.  Q    Do you, as Guuhadakxw, have the right to go on all of  'Wiik'aax land?  A    Yes, they could go on all his land. I could go on  Laats lands too. There is three of them.  There is  Guuhadakxw, Laats and 'Wiik'aax. Guuhadakxw has a  house here in Gitangasx.  Q     Have you ever voted in a federal election?  MR. GRANT:   Objection.  The question is irrelevant.  You  could put the question to the witness, but on this  question I wish the right to object because it's an 2-131  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  i rre1evant que s t i on.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  What is your objection, for the record?  MR. GRANT:    It' s totally irrelevant to the proceedings here.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Are you instructing the witness not to answer  the question?  MR. GRANT:    No.  On the basis of what we discussed, with  respect to this question,  I reserve the right to object  at trial.  We take the position the question is totally  irrelevant,  but he can answer the question and reserve  the right to object when it's brought out at trial.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  So the question is being answered on the basis  that you have an objection to it, Mr. Grant, on the  admissibility  of it, and that will be taken up when  the matter is put at trial; is that correct?  MR. GRANT:    That' s correct.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Then I'll re-ask the question.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Have you ever  voted in a federal election?  A    Yes, I did.  I was in Bowser Lake when I got a piece  of paper from the government and I voted. I didn't  know who I was voting for.  I was just young at that  time.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Mr. Grant,  I intend to ask him further questions  along this line,  and I take it you have the same objection to all of these questions that I'm about to ask;  is that correct?  MR. GRANT:    Yes.  I wonder what the position is as to  relevance of this as to the pleadings and the lease  between the parties.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Well, you have made your objection on the relevancy aspect and that will be a matter --  MR. GRANT:    But I want to know what the position is now,  because if you are going to ask a long series of  questions along this  line, maybe I should say. I  assumed you were asking one or two questions along  this matter.  If you are going to ask a longer series  of questions, maybe I should object so this matter  can be brought before Chambers.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  I have three questions.  But I do wish to  explore the witness' answers in regard to time as to  what he just gave us.  MR. GRANT:    Can you refer me to how this is relevant at this  point?  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Well, again your objection is on the record and  it's noted.   And I think it's properly a matter of the 2-132  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  Chambers Judge or the trial judge.  I don't want you  to have to object to each and every question.  I was going  to save a blanket  objection  for this  section,  if you like.  MR. GRANT:    Can you just state the three questions you are  going to ask, and then I'll set out my objection to '  the other two?  MR. 0'BYRNE:  The other questions would be this: Have you  ever  voted in a  provincial election,  and have you  ever  Voted in a municipal election?  And I wish to find out in time frame when he  got the paper from Bowser Lake.  MR. GRANT:     To save some  time here and  in light of the  fact  we were going to endeavour to reconvene in two weeks,  I will maintain the position that we object on the  basis  of relevance  and we can argue  this out afterwards.  So you can ask the questions.  If this was a discovery, I would instruct the  witness  not to answer  but in the  circumstances,  I will  allow you to proceed, as long as my objection is noted,        which  it clearly is.  And you understand that we're not accepting  these questions can be asked for the purposes       of the trial.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  I understand your objection.  Q    Mr. Wright, were you married when you got that paper  at Bowser Lake and you voted in the federal election?  A    When I was in Bowser Lake, they just showed me which  one to mark with an "X" and that's what I did.  I  never did go to school, so I didn't know who I was  voting for or what I was voting for.  Q    Were you already married, and did you have children  at the time you did this?  A    Yes.  I was married and I did have a lot of children.  That's why I came back to Kisgagas.  I 'm sick now and  I 'm on Old Age Pension.  Q    Have you ever voted in a provincial election?  MR. GRANT:   Object on relevance as noted above.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Fine.  THE WITNESS:  I did vote again and it was the same situation  at that time. I didn't know what I was voting for or  who I was voting for, and I didn't speak  any english.  I just speak Indian.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Have you ever been employed by the Federal Government  of Canada?  MR. GRANT:    Object on the basis of relevance. 2-133  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  THE WITNESS:  My father did but I didn't.  He was a lineman.  He came from Telegraph Creek and all the way here,  and they helped him out.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    And that is your father Xsimxsan?  A    Yes.  Q    Have you ever been employed by the provincial government  of Canada?  MR. GRANT:    Object on the basis of relevance.  THE WITNESS:  No, I didn't.  I worked at Silver Standard and  I don't know if I worked for the government.  I didn't  know how to rig  their paper.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    What type of work did you do at Silver Standard?  MR. GRANT:   Object on the basis of relevance as noted above.  THE WITNESS:  I was the bush foreman there.  I had an easy job.  I was  packing .these poles around on  my shoulder and  I  stand them up and then after that I went prospecting.  MR. GRANT:    Just before you proceed, with respect to the  question of employment that you are referring to,  again I'm just making my note of the objection as  relevance and I take the position that the personal  employment of this person is irrelevant to the proceedings herein, and I will just refer to the objection as  to relevance and that's the objection for the record,  depending on the questions you ask.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  The objection is noted.  Q    Have you ever served in the military of Canada?  MR. GRANT:    Object that it's irrelevant.  THE WITNESS:  No, I haven't.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Have you ever served on a jury?  MR. GRANT: Object as to the relevance.  THE INTERPRETER: No, he wasn't a person sitting on the jury.  He said no.  MR. GRANT: I presume that when you first asked, he did not  know what you were referring to?  THE INTERPRETER: I didn't know how to interpret jury, so I  just said jury.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    You Said that after you worked at Silver Standard you  went prospecting.  How did you work for when you went  prospecting? 2-134  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  A    I was working for Silver Standard at that time,  prospecting for them.  And after that I came back and  I was quite tired and I stayed in Kisgagas.  MR. GRANT:    Could you ask the Reporter to read that answer  back?  I didn't get the last part.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Perhaps the Reporter could read back the last  answer for Mr. Grant.  THE REPORTER: Answer:  "I was working for Silver Standard at  that time, prospecting for them. And  after that I came back and I was  quite tired and I stayed in Kisgagas".  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    On whose land did you prospect?  A    I was prospecting all over the world, all for gold and  silver, and they showed me what else to look for, that  stuff you use for the bomb.  Q    Did you go on land other than 'Wiik'aax to prospect?  A    I was all over the place and I only went over 'Wiik'aax  lands because I had to get to another %art, to another  destination.  That's why I went over his land.  Q    Did you prospect on 'Wiik'aax land?  A    We just passed over it. We did prospect on it. We  were just passing through.  THE INTERPRETER:  When he says these things, do I have to  interpret it?  MR. GRANT:   Interpret what he said.  THE INTERPRETER:  Okay.  'Wiik'aax land wasn't very good but  we did, but Xsimxsan land was good. We did find some  there but we didn't touch it.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Did you have to ask 'Wiik'aax permission to prospect  on his land?  A    Prospector doesn't ask permission from anybody to  prospect on any land. They just go where they want to.  Q    And is that what you did?  A    Yes, that's what I did.  Q    Can 'Wiik'aax give permission to people other than  members of the House of 'Wiik'aax to use 'Wiik'aax  land?  A    The white people didn't even ask any permission from  anybody to prospect on their lands. I was working  for the white people and that's what they did. They  don't ask for permission when they prospect on anyone's  land.  MR. GRANT: Could we go off the record for a moment, please? 2-135  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne       OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     If the prospectors had asked permission to go on the  land of 'Wiik'aax, could 'Wiik'aax have let them go  on the land to prospect for minerals?  A     They didn't even bother to ask him. They just went on  there and prospected on there.  Q     Does 'Wiik'aax have the authority to let people go on  his land to prospect for minerals?  MR. GRANT:   Under traditional Gitksan rules?  MR. 0'BYRNE: I just want the witness to answer that question.  He can qualify it if he wants.  THE WITNESS: They didn't bother to tell 'Wiik'aax that we are  going on his land to prospect.  We went on a lot of  Indian land and they didn't bother to tell any Indians  that they were prospecting on their lands.  I was with  the white people at that time.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     Now, Mr. Wright, I want to talk about the way in which  a hereditary chief passes the land down to his  grandchildren.  Do you, as a hereditary chief, hold  your family's land for future generations?  A     Yes,  I could pass it onto my grandchildren and onto my  children.  Q     Do you, as a hereditary chief, have a duty to maintain  and look after the land?  A     I'm getting too old to keep on looking after it. I'm  going to give it to my grandchildren and my children.  Q     When you were younger and still healthy, did you  maintain and look after the land?  MR. GRANT:    Before or after he was Guuhadakxw?  What time  frame are you talking about?  MR. 0'BYRNE:  When he was hereditary chief.  THE  WITNESS:   Yes I do when I  was still strong  but now that  I'm  getting too old, my grandchildren and my children will have  it.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     After you became Guuhadakxw and when you were still  younger and healthy, how did you maintain your lands?  What did you do?  A     I used to walk around on my land, making trails. Now  I don't trap on there any more. The white people, they  have already logged off a lot of their lands and now  they're looking at our lands. 2-136  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  THE INTERPRETER:  I didn't quite put that right.  The white  people, they logged off a lot of the lands and now that  they're looking at our lands over here.  They see new  trees there that could be logged off and that's what  they see.  That's why they want our land.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    After you became Guuhadakxw, did you try to increase  the amount of lands you had?  A    It's not up to me. I never created this world that I  should make it bigger.  The size of our land remains  the same.  We can't make it bigger.  Q    Why can't you make it bigger?  A    I can't do it. But maybe some of my other people could  do it from Kisgagas.  There is a lot of us. Kisgagas  owns a lot of land, even around this area.  Q    If the people from Kisgagas wanted to make the land  bigger, what would they do?  A    I guess the white people know how to increase their own  lands, but Indians don't do that. Once they have a  parcel of land, they keep it as that same size. It  was 'Wiik'aax, Xsimxsan and 'Wiiminoosikx that surveyed  this area.  Q    Could you get more land,  for example, by taking some  from another tribe?  MR. GRANT:   Do you mean another, a non-Gitksan?  MR. 0'BYRNE: I ' 11 break it down into two questions and  rephrase  it.  Q    Could you get more land by taking it from people other  than Gitksan people?  A    The Indians  are finished now with that.  And now that  they have it, nobody has the right to take it away.  Q    In the past,  in the time of your grandfathers, did the  Gitksan people take lands from non-Gitksan people?  MR. GRANT:   To your knowledge.  THE WITNESS: No, they can't do that. It's already finished  and nobody can take this land away.  It's finished  already.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    If you, as Guuhadakxw, did not want your land any more,  what would you do with it?  MR. GRANT: Objection.  It's a hypothetical question and as  such irrelevant.  THE WITNESS: My grandchildren and my children would take it.  I'm getting too old now. It's time for me to pass it on 2-137  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    If you want to pass your land onto your grandchildren  or your children, do you have to talk to anybody before  you do that?  A    No, it's my land so I don't have to speak to anybody.  They have  their own land also and I don't have to  speak to anybody.  Q    Now, Mr. Wright, I want to talk about the use that you  made of your lands when you were younger, after you  became Guuhadakxw. You went on your land to fish and  to hunt and to trap;  is that right?  A    Yes, I did when I was still strong.  But now I' m on  Old Age Pension.  Q    When you were young and strong and went on the land,  did you do anything else on the land besides fishing,  huntring and trapping?  A    I never did anything on my lands. When I got lonely  I went on my father's lands, his father's land.  MR. GRANT:    Could I clarify?  I just want to clarify for  The Interpreter.  Did you say my father's?  THE INTERPRETER:  My father's lands and then he said my  father's land. I didn't ask him to clarify that.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Perhaps we could clarify that answer by asking  Mr. Wright.  Q    WOUld you give us the name of your father you have  talked about in that last question and the answer,  and also the grandfather's name that you talked about?  THE INTERPRETER:  He mentioned some names:  Guuhadakxw and  'Wiik'aax are my grandfathers, and my father's name  is Xsimxsan and Ksemgitgiigyenix.  And 'Wiiminoosikx  are all my grandfathers.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     Let's clarify that a little further.  Is it true, Mr.  Wright, that every person who has become 'Wiiminoosikx  and taken the name 'Wiiminoosikx is by Gitksan law and  tradition your grandfather?  A     William Dennis -- yes, that's true.  They're all my  grandfathers. Some of them came from Stikine and one  was Axtsiina. He was 'Wiiminoosikx and his name was  William Dennis.  Q     You mentioned that sometimes you would get lonely and  go on the lands of your father and your grandfather.  Is that land different from your land as Guuhadakxw?  A     Yes, it's different, quite different.  Q     Is it in a different location than your land as 2-138  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  Guuhadakxw?  A     Yes, it's that fourth cabin on the Skeena River on the  left side.  Q     Now, Mr. Wright, I want to talk about the lands that  you described to us that your father, Xsimxsan took  you to when you were about 12 years old.  MR. GRANT:   Just to clarify,  in the Direct Examination he  actually appears to have described two pieces.  Now,  you have referred to the one that he described in the  February discovery.  MR. 0'BYRNE: I'm referring to the February discovery.  He  gave a description of some land and I want to discuss  this area with him, so perhaps the Interpreter could  jUSt go back to my question and tell him I want to  discuss the area of land.  THE INTERPRETER:  Was that when his father was sick?  MR. 0'BYRNE: No,  I'm talking about the first trip he went on  with his father Xsimxsan and his grandfather Danny  'Wiik'aax took him on the land.  Q     When you went on the land with Danny 'Wiik'aax, he  showed you what the boundaries were to your land; is  that correct?  A     Xsigwinhliiyun and Xsiluulaxamaawxsxwt,  those are the  boundaries of 'Wiik'aax land.  Q     Do you know the English names for those places or  things?  A     They mentioned the names to me, but I forgot them,  the white terms for them.  The water from  Xsiluulaxamaawxsxwt, the lake, it comes from the water.  Q     Is that lake Bear Lake?  A     No.  Q     Do you know the English name for that lake?  THE INTERPRETER:  He thinks Thutade, it's just a guess.  MR. GRANT:   His answer was that's just a guess?  THE INTERPRETER:  And that's just a guess.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE;  Q        Is the Sicintine  River On  the land that  you were shown  by Danny 'Wiik'aax?  A     I don't know how many nights before we get to 'Wiik'aax  territory.  Q       Do you cross  over the Sicintine  River to  get to 'Wiik'aax  territory?  A     Yes, you do.  Yes, I go across the water from Bear  Lake. I forgot the name of it now because I knew too  many names.  There is the Sustut and then Xsu'wiiaks.  I think it's called Xsu'wiiaks when they join the 2-139  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  Skeena.  Q    Does part of 'Wiik'aax land that you were shown touch  upon Bear Lake?  A    It's close to Bear Lake.  Q    To your knowledge and from what you were told by your  grandfathers, was that land near Bear Lake taken from  some other non-Gitksan people?  MR. GRANT:   The land at Bear Lake?  MR. 0' BYRNE: Around Bear Lake.  THE WITNESS: No, they didn't.  They're 'Wiik'aax and they're  near Bear Lake. Hardly any 'Wiik'aax died and nobody  took that name yet.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    On your knowledge and from what you were told by your  grandfathers or your grandmothers, was any of 'Wiik'aax  land ever taken away by non-Gitksan people other than  whites?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, nobody told him that anybody took part  of 'Wiik'aax land and nobody took Haadixs  Laxnox yet.  Freddy Jackson is alive now and he thinks Freddy Jackson  might take Haadixs Laxnox.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Isn't it true that you were told by your grandfathers  or grandmothers that your forefathers often fought with  other non-Gitksan people over land?  A    Yes, that's true. People from the east used to try to  take some of the land from Kisgagas, and they were  Ts'ets'aut and they're all wiped out and the people  from Kisgagas are still there.  Q    Were you ever told by your grandfathers or grandmothers  whether or not the people from the east took some of  your land and kept it, even for a short time?  A    No, they couldn't do it.  They're all dead, the  Ts'ets'aut people.  MR. 0'BYRNE: Just go off the record for a second, please.      OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Now, Mr. Wright, I would like to talk to you about  the members of your house, the people who belong to  the house.  Do you know the names of all the people  who belong to the House of 'Wiik'aax?  A    Yes, I do know.  Q    And would you be able to provide me with a list 2-140  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  through and with the help of Mr. Grant?  MR. GRANT:    Before he answers,  I want to note for the record  that this is a question that's been asked on the  interrogatories, and the named plaintiff with respect  to the House of 'Wiik'aax, we are endeavouring to  provide that answer through that named plaintiff.  So it seems unnecessary as to ask this witness  again.  THE INTERPRETER:  I'm just going to mention the high chiefs.  'Wiik'aax and Laats are one of them.  Gwininitxw has  his own house. He is another one that is strong in  'Wiik'aax house. Aspaguhlbax, Ts'eeyootsa, he doesn't  know what Ts'eeyootsa means.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    All right, Mr. Wright, you have mentioned some names of  people who belong to the House of 'Wiik'aax;  is that  correct?  A    Yes, that's true. Some of them had their own houses  after a while because there is too many in the House  of 'Wiik'aax.  Q    Do you, as Guuhadakxw, have your own house?  A    Yes,  it's standard here in Gitanmaax.  Q    And can you as Guuhadakxw speak on behalf of all of  the people who are members of your house?  A    Yes, that's true.  Q    And can you, through and with the assistance of Mr.  Grant, give me a list of all of the people who belonged  to the House of Guuhadakxw that you speak on behalf of?  THE INTERPRETER:  Do you want him to give the list now or  later?  MR. 0'BYRNE: He can give the list in the future.  THE INTERPRETER:  So I could explain to him that he doesn't  have to mention any names.  MR. 0'BYRNE: I just want him to give me a list in the future.  MR. GRANT:   The question is can he in the future give a list  to me?  THE INTERPRETER:  Oh, in the future.  THE WITNESS: Yes,  I can give it at another time.  MR. 0'BYRNE: Mr. Grant, you will be able to provide that  to US?  MR. GRANT:   I have noted your request.  Again, as I say,  there is a list being prepared with respect to 'Wiik'aax  answer and the Court has given us direction, that's  part of the interrogatories.  The Court has directed  US to provide those answers by the end of June and we  anticipate no difficulty in providing those answers. 2-141  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  It seems that this would be reasonable, unless we take  objection to the request.  But I don't see any problem  with it now.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  I was about to go into a different area.  It's  two minutes to twelve.  Perhaps we'll stop here.     RECESSED FOR LUNCH    UPON RESUMING  MR. 0'BYRNE: This is the continuation of the Cross-Examination  of Thomas Wright, after the luncheon adjournment.  Q       Now, Mr.  Wright,  you told me  earlier  this morning  that  you as Guuhadakxw own certain land;  is that correct?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, he does claim the Indians have land.  BY MR.  0'BYRNE:  Q     Now, Mr. Wright,  I apologize and I ask you to be very  patient with me, but I don't understand what you mean  by owning the land.  A     Because I'm an Indian and we come from our mothers,  I  come from my mother and if she has another baby then  that person, that baby will own land too.  Q     Could you tell me what you mean by ownership of land?  A     The Indians owned a lot of land. It's not only me.  There is a lot of Indians on this earth and they own  a lot of land, but we own Kisgagas.  Q     Well, for example, Mr. Wright, could you go and build  a house on the land where you hunt and fish and trap?  A     My brothers have houses on these lands.  They burnt  down when there was a forest fire caused by lightning.  Q     Is that the full answer?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, I think so.  MR. 0'BYRNE: Do you want to clarify it with him?  THE WITNESS: Yes, they burnt down and some of them rotted  down.  BY MR.  0'BYRNE:  Q       When you  say you  as Guuhadakxw  own land,  do you  include  land within the Village of Kisgagas?  A     That's true.  Kisgagas has a lot of land and it's our  land.  Q    And when you say you own land, is there land you own  outside of the Village of Kisgagas?  A    Not very many people own.  'Wiiminoosikx owns lots of 2-142  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  land, Laats, Melulek and 'Wiik'aax.  MR. GRANT:   Just a moment,  is he finished?  THE INTERPRETER:  I think so.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     Do I understand you, Mr. Wright, that you as Guuhadakxw  don't own any land outside of the Village of Kisgagas?  A    All the grounds surrounding Kisgagas is our land, the  Indians.  Q     All the grounds surrounding Kisgagas?  THE INTERPRETER:  All the lands.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     All the land surrounding Kisgagas for how far?  THE INTERPRETER:  He doesn't have anything to measure miles  with.  I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but  he said there are a lot of Indians on this world and  they have a lot of land on this world.  And we own  Kisgagas.  That's our territory he said.  I don't know  if I mentioned that earlier.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     All right, Mr. Wright, you mentioned that outside of  the Village of Kisgagas there were three people who  owned that land. - -  MR. GRANT:    He gave four names.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Four names, is that correct?  THE WITNESS:  There are a lot of people that own land in  Kisgagas.  There were 12 houses there but they don't  use iE now. They have rotted down.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     Did you say earlier that there were four head chiefs  who owned all the land outside of the Village of  Kisgagas?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said there are a lot of chiefs outside  there that own land. There are more than four. He  only mentioned four earlier and there is 'Wiik'aax and  'Wiiminoosikx and Gwininitxw, T'ewelasxw, and Tsimgaak.  Those are just some of them.  MR. GRANT:    Did he say Tsimgaak?  THE INTERPRETER:  And he mentioned One Of the houses.  MR. GRANT:    For the record,  the Interpreter repeated that  word after some discussion after part of the witness'  answer, and I just wondered if that was one of the  names he had given. 2-143  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Are you as Guuhadakxw one of the hereditary chiefs who  owns land outside of the Village of Kisgagas?  A    Yes, that's true.  I hold some land over here too.  That's right near Kispayaks, touching on you guys' land.  THE INTERPRETER:  Can I clarify something with him?  MR. 0'BYRNE:  What is it you want to clarify?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said Mihlmihl'n.  It's touching or could  be near.  He said it was close to our land and he said  a lot of the houses burnt down.  'Wiiminoosikx, and  them, their houses.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    The land that you said you would give to your children  and grandchildren as Guuhadakxw, is that land near  Kisgagas?  A    Yes, there are a lot of lands out there and 'Wiiminoosikx  have a lot, Xsimxsan, and Txa'anlaxhatxw.  Q    Mr. Wright, this morning when we were talking about the  land that you hold as Guuhadakxw, you said that you  were getting old and that you were going to give it  to your children and grandchildren;  is that correct?  A    Yes, that's true.  Q    Is this land that you will give to your children and  your grandchildren near Kisgagas?  A    Yes, that's true.  Q    Is this land that you will give to your children and  your grandchildren part of the land owned by the House  of 'Wiik'aax?  A    No, it isn't.  It's my dad's land and Laats land I am  talking about.  Q    And by "dad", do you mean Xsimxsan?  A    Yes, Xsimxsan.  He's got a lot of names.  He is a high  chief, that's why.  Q    Is Xsimxsan the same strength as 'Wiik'aax?  A    He's got the same strength as 'Wiiminoosikx,  'Wiigyet  and Gwininitxw.  There is a lot of them that have the  same strength and they could be out there now.  Q    When you do give your land to your children or your  grandchildren, how will you tell them where it is?  A    I'm going to speak some words of wisdom to one of my  grandchildren, and I'm going to tell him everything  and where the land is and everything. And after I die  and I'm buried, then they are going to put a big feast  and the people are going to witness what has happened.  They will be the witnesses.  Q    Will you describe the lands to your grandchildren by 2-144  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  Using the names of lakes or rivers?  A    I could make a map, but right now I'm too old and  nobody came to help me. Nobody came to help me make  a map,  that is my grandchildren.  Q      I realize,  Mr. Wright,  that you are  too old to do  this,  but could you make a map of the lands that you went on        with  Danny 'Wiik'aax?  MR. GRANT:    Sorry, he just said he is too old to do it.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Just a minute,  I think I'm entitled to ask the  question, Mr. Grant.  Do you have an objection to it?  MR. GRANT:    Yes, as worded.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Then let's go off the record.  MR. GRANT:    We can' t go off the record.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  It's my Cross-Examination.  We can go off the  record.  MR. GRANT:   We both have to agree .  MR. 0'BYRNE:  I disagree, Mr. Grant.  MR. GRANT:    I 'm going to state my objection on the record.  My only objection is he just said he's too old and  cannot make a map.  In your question you said I understand you  are too old to make  a map.   Could you make it?  Now, I think I'm not objecting to the area of  the question,  I'm just thinking that the wording of  the question  could  be changed.  It's  self-contradictory.  He just said he can't make the map, but if you want to  ask him if  he was younger could he make the map or  something like that,  I'd understand.  I think I know  what you are getting at, but I think the question is  unfair as worded.  MR. 0'BYRNE:   Let' s back up and see what the question is.  THE REPORTER:  Question:  "I realize, Mr. Wright, that you are  too old to do this, but could you  make a maD of the lands that you  went on with Danny 'Wiik'aax?  MR. GRANT:    Are you referring to the fact if he wasn't old,  he could make the map?  MR. 0'BYRNE:     That's what  I'm asking.  Perhaps  I'll rephrase  it this way.  Q     Mr. Wright, you have  told me that you could make a map  of the  land that you  plan to give to your grandchildren;  is that correct?  A     I made a map earlier at Cedar Creek, but they are  missing.  Your dad  helped  me make it and I  think somebody  stole it.  I also made a map with Simon Wright, and it  showed where there was gold and silver and that's  Ts'ets'aut.  We're trying to get that territory because 2-145  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  there was gold and silver there.  Q     Could you tell one of your grandchildren how to draw  the map?  MR. GRANT:   Of which territory?  Before the answer is translated, for the record,  I asked which territory.  MR. 0'BYRNE] The territory he is going to give to his  children.  THE WITNESS: Yes,  I could make it.  I could instruct one of  my grandchildren how to make it because they went to  school and I never did it. He could help me make it.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     Could you instruct one of your grandchildren to draw a  map of the land that you went on with Danny 'Wiik'aax  when you were 12 or 13 years old?  A     Yes, I could show him.  'Wiik'aax land is much better  than Laats land, but those two are strong in Tsimgaak.  Q     Have you ever seen a map that shows the land that you  were shown by Danny 'Wiik'aax?  A     No, we didn't have any maps in those days.  We didn't  need any maps in those days. When we were young, we  were quite small, we used to go behind our fathers and  we'd know all our lands because they'd walk with us on  these lands.  When I was a baby, my mother used to take me on  her back and take me on these lands of 'Wiik'aax and  Laats. Simon Wright made a map to show me the area of  'Wiik'aax land. He made maps of different areas in  Canada and he wanted me to know the different areas,  that' s why he made that map.  Q     So you saw a map that was drawn by Simon Wright which  had the territory   of   'Wiik'aax marked on   it,  is that  correct?  A     It wasn't only 'Wiik'aax that he showed me.  He showed  me Gwininitxw, Melulek and 'Wiiminoosikx lands,  territories.  Q      Do you know what happened to that map, Mr.  Wright?        A  That map must have been stolen by someone or it was lost  at you guys' fishing grounds, Xsigwina'umst.  Q     Do you remember the map well enough to tell somebody  how to draw it again?  A     Yes, I could.  I could just point to the different area  We own Xsu'wiiaks and Xsigintaayin.  Q     When you say "we own", who do you mean?  Do you mean  the House of Guuhadakxw or the House of 'Wiik'aax?  A     This is 'Wiik'aax territory I'm talking about. Tsimgaak  is where they come from. 2-146  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  Q    Aside from the map that Simon Wright drew, have you seen  any other documents that show the lands of the House of  'Wiik'aax?  A    No, I didn't see anything.  He made maps of 'Wiik'aax  territory and 'Wiiminoosikx and Laats and Gwininitxw.  Q    Other than maps, have you seen any other papers that  talk about 'Wiik'aax land?  A    No, I didn't see any papers where it is shown.  'Wiik'aax  and Laats own Laxyip, on the other side of Kisgagas.  Q    The map that you saw that Simon Wright made that showed  where the gold and silver was, was there a lot of gold  and silver on 'Wiik'aax territory?  A    The Indians back in those days never used anything such  as maps.  What they did was mention different names of  creeks and different names of areas, and this is the  way they showed where their territories were and which  way to go to get to their territories.  Q    Was there a lot of gold and silver on the land of  'Wiik'aax?  A    No.  'wiik'aax never had anything on his land, but  your grandfather did.  Your grandfather Xsimxsan's  land is very good. And the white people already took  'Wiiminoosikx land.  Their villages on the mountain.  Their village is on the mountain, the white people.  Q    What village did the white people put on 'Wiiminoosikx  land?  A    They found gold and silver on the mountain and that's  where they made their camp.  I don't know if there is  a city there, there could be, but that's what they did.  They had a mine there.  Q    Do you know if the mine is still there and operating  today?  A    Yes, there is a city there now and so they must still  be at it, working on the mine.  Q    Do you know the name of that city that's there?  A    It's called Blackwater.  It's 'Wiiminoosikx territory.  That's what the white people took away.  Q    And is the white village that's there called Blackwater?  A    They didn't mention anything.  I just know it's called  Blackwater there at that area.  Q    Is there any of 'Wiik'aax land that you are aware of  that the white man has taken?  A    No, there is no white people there.  Q    Just so I've got that clear, Mr. Wright, are you saying  that there are no white people living on 'Wiik'aax  land?  A    Ever since I last seen it, there was no white people 2-147  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  there at that time.  I haven't been on his land lately.  Q    Well, have you received any information from anybody in  your family or otherwise that leads you to believe  there may be white people living on 'Wiik'aax territory?  A    No, they didn't tell me anything like that but a lot of  my family's out there now.  Q    The lands that you're going to pass onto your children  or your grandchildren, that's land you got from your  father Xsimxsan;  is it?  A    Xsimxsan never spoke but when he died I paid for his  funeral expenses and I paid for everything when he died,  so I'm the one that's looking after that territory  right now.  Q    What house does that territory that you are looking  after right now belong to?  THE INTERPRETER:  These were 'Wiiminoosikx house. Him and  'Wiiminoosikx surveyed this area.  That's why there  are some trails where the Indian people live now.  He said roads where the Indian people live now.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Aside from the mine that you told us about, are there  any other white people on the lands that you are  looking after for the House of 'Wiiminoosikx?  MR. GRANT:   Do you want to go off the record, because I heard  a knock at the door.      OFF THE RECORD  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Could I have the last Question read back before  we adjourned?  THE REPORTER:  Question:  "Aside from the mine that you told  US about, are there any other white  people on the lands that you are  looking after for the House of  'Wiiminoosikx? "  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Have you put that question to him?  THE INTERPRETER:  No.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Would you put that question to him?  THE WITNESS:  No, I didn't see anything there.  After the  white people put their village there, I never did go  there any more.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Did you actually see the white people living at the  mine? 2-148  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  A    I did see it when I went hunting for grouse. There  must be a big city there now because there weren't too  many there at that time.  THE INTERPRETER: I'm not sure whether he said he went to the  village.  I think he saw it from a distance. I'm not  sure.  He didn't say.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Did you see these white people in the village on more  than one occasion?  A    I didn't count how many white people were there, but  that's my grandfather's land.  That's why I go there.  THE INTERPRETER:  He didn't quite answer that question.  I  think he misunderstood me.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  All right,  I'll out the question to him again.  Q    Did you see the white people there at that mine on more  than one occasion, Mr. Wright?  A    I left there in 1908, and that was when I left there.  I believe after we left the white people moved in.  Q    Mr. Wright, did you say after we left or after I left  in 1908 the people moved in?  A    There were a lot of us that left.  My mom and my dad  and Simon Wright,  Fanny Wright, there is three sisters.  There is lots of us that left there.  Q    And you are talking about Blackwater, are you?  A    Yes.  Q    Can you tell me in relation to perhaps the Nass River  where Blackwater is?  A    I never really measured the miles myself. But some  people say 80 miles, but as far as I'm concerned, I  think they are talking more like 100 miles, the distance  between Blackwater and Nass River.  I came from Bowser  Lake and Meziadin.  Q    If you come from Bowser Lake and go to Meziadin Lake,  is Blackwater after Meziadin Lake, or before Meziadin  Lake?  A    Blackwater is near the Nass River.  That's why I was  working with somebody from the Nass River. His name  was Henry Axtiminats' ax.  I was working with him at  Bowser Lake.  THE INTERPRETER:  He didn't answer my question.  MR. GRANT:    Can we go off the record for a moment?      OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. 0'BYRNE: Just for the record, Mr. Grant and I went off  the record and clarified the position of Blackwater 2-149  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  With some assistance from the person writing the Gitksan  words.  And that was explained to Thomas Wright so he'd  know why we went off.  Q    Mr. Wright, how many times a year, approximately, would  you or members of your family when you were younger, go  on the land of 'Wiik'aax?  A    Just once a year. Sometimes we don't see it for two  years, and to this day I haven't been on 'Wiik'aax or  Laats for a long time.  Q    And how many times a year when you were a young man  would you go onto the lands of 'Wiiminoosikx?  MR. GRANT:    Is that himself?  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Yes, yourself?  Only about once a year, and sometimes I have missed  years that I'd go on there. After I became of age, I  was working so I didn' t go on there.  Q    Is it true that most of your family would go on the  land just to hunt and to trap and to fish?  A       Yes, that's  true.  There  is so many different  animals  that are available to us in the woods.  There is moose,  mountain goat and caribou, just to name some of them.  Q    When you went on the land of 'Wiik'aax with Danny  'Wiik'aax when he was showing you the lands, did you  see signs that other people had been using the land?  A    No, we didn't see any signs and they didn't touch  'Wiik'aax territory.  Now I hear that none of our  equipment is out there at Xsu'wiiaks.  They took all  our traps and 'Wiik'aax and my dad's.  Q    Who is the "they" that took all the traps?  A    We weren't sitting below our stash to look out for it.  We don't know who it is. We hid them 'way up on the  tree in a stash. We weren't there to look after it  all the time.  Q    Did this happen on the land of 'Wiik'aax?  A    Yes, it was on his land.  Danny 'Wiik'aax is my uncle  and Hadakxwmxskiik died a long time ago.  Q        What did  your forefathers   or your grandfathers   tell  you they would do or say to people who came onto their  lands without permission?  A    They never did anything to them because they're Indians  and Indians loved each other. When they came to town  it was similar to seeing an army march into town.  That' s the way they were.  Q    Just so I understand that, Mr. Wright,  is it correct  that if somebody came on your grandfather's or your  forefather's land, you were told that they wouldn't do 2-150  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  anything at all to the person?  A    No, they wouldn't touch them. Just the Ts'ets'aut and  the Norwegians, they're no good.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Just off the record.      OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Just for the record,  the answer I think is  correct:  The Ts'ets'aut and Norwegian are no good.  That's what I noted as the answer.  Perhaps I can go  back a little more.  Q    Mr. Wright, is it true then that you were told by your  grandfathers that Ts'ets'aut and Norwegians were forced  to get off your land if they came on it?  A    Yes, they'd get chased off the land.  Q    What would be done if the land that you were given to  use to hunt and to trap and to fish was to, for example,  be flooded over by water so that you could not use it  at all? Would you get new land?  MR. GRANT:    Just a moment.  I want to clarify when you are  talking about.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Let's start with right now.  MR. GRaNT:   You say what would be done?  What would be done  by whom right now?  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    If your lands that you wish to give to your children  or your grandchildren were to be flooded over by water  so they couldn't hunt or fish or trap on it or walk on  it, would you be given new lands?  MR. GRANT:    Object on the basis that it is a hypothetical  question and as such, irrelevant.  THE WITNESS:  No, they wouldn't.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q    Did your grandfathers or any of your grandmothers ever  tell you of land that was flooded or made unusable at  any time?  MR. GRANT: Where?  MR. 0'BYRNE: Within the land of 'Wiik'aax.  THE WITNESS: The Japanese and the Chinese have their own land  and if it was flooded, I don't think they would be able  to go on there.  I was in Vancouver one time and this  Japanese woman told me that she was Haimadimtxw from  'Wiik'aax land.  So that Japanese woman was from  'Wiik'aax house. 2-151  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     The land that you wish to give to your children and  your grandchildren, will you be giving them the right  to walk on that land?  A     One of my grandchildren will stand up and that person  will be the one that will be giving out the land, not  me. I' 11 be only giving  it to him and he will be the  one that will be giving it out to his own relatives.  Q     The grandchild that you give your land to, will you be  giving him the right to walk on that land?  A     He will have his own land to walk on.  It's not like  the Ts'ets'aut.  Q     Sorry,  I couldn't hear the last part?  A     He will be having his own land to walk on.  It's not  like the Ts'ets'aut.  Q     Will you be giving that grandchild that you give your  land to, the right to hunt and trap and fish on that  land?  A     Yes, he would use that land any way he wants to. That's  what my grandfather did.  Q     You said he could use that land any way he wants to.  Could you sell it to a white man?  A     No, he can't. Jimmy Blackwater was one of the people  that sold land at Blackwater.  He sold it to AI  MacDougall.  And the elders looked upon him and said  amongst themselves, he is lucky he is not in jail now.  MR. GRANT:    Just for a note, I didn't get the last Dart of  that answer.  THE REPORTER: Answer:  "No, he can' t. Jimmy Blackwater was one  of the people that sold land at  Blackwater.  He sold it to AI  MacDougall.  And the elders looked upon  him and said amongst themselves, he is  lucky he is not in jail now."  THE WITNESS:  He wanted to be lucky.  That's why he sold it.  He was selling his grandfather's land,  'Wiiminoosikx.  He already died, Blackwater.  BY MR.  0'BYRNE:  Q     Just So I have it COrrect, you are telling us, Mr.  Wright, that this Jimmy Blackwater sold some of your  grandfather 'Wiiminoosikx land; is that correct?  A     Yes, he did sell it. He didn't sell it to anybody in  the family.  He was the only one that sold it. It was  as if that money was really big.  He only sold it for  $500. 2-152  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  Q     Did he Sell that land to a White person?  A     MacDougall must have been a white man. He is from the  States.  Q     And why did the chiefs, why did they tell you that the  chiefs talked amongst themselves and thought that  Jimmy Blackwater should be in jail?  A     Because he sold that land behind his grandfather,  'Wiiminoosikx.  And Jimmy Blackwater is lucky that he  got away with it and so is AI MacDougall lucky because  he only got that big parcel for only about $500.  Q     After people found out this Alex MacDougall bought this  land, did your grandfathers try and get the land back?  A     They tried to get it back but somebody from here took  that land.  He is an elderly white person.  I think he  died already.  Q     Do you know or were you told by your grandfathers of any  other person who sold land to white people?  MR. GRANT:   Any other person?  BY MR.  0'BYRNE:  Q     Any other Gitksan person?  A     No, nobody did.  Just Jimmy Black did.  Q     Is Jimmy Black Jimmy Blackwater?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR.  0'BYRNE:  Q    Going back to your grandchildren and what they can do  with the land, you said that your grandchildren can  do whatever they want with the land that you are going  to give them but they can't sell it; is that correct?  A    No, they can't sell any kind of territory because it's  the Indian's own and that's the Indian land.  Q    Could they cut the trees down and sell it?  A    I never did care to keep track of the timber there.  Back in the old days we never did sell timber. It was  told to me that nobody, nobody sold timber in those  days.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Now, Mr. Grant,  I'm going into a different area  and it deals with a comprehensive land claim in 1977.  Prior to the Cross-Examination,  I asked you if you had  raised that with Mr. Wright and you have done that?  MR. GRANT:    When you say raise it, have I discussed the  comprehensive  land claim of 1977 with him?  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Yes, that he is aware of it?  MR. GRANT:    I believe it's been mentioned.  I don't know if  I discussed it with him. I can't honestly recall. 2-153  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q      Mr. Wright,  I want to  talk to you about  another area  and  that is about the comprehensive land claim that was  submitted to the Federal Government of Canada in 1977.  Do you know anything about that?  MR. GRANT:    Before you ask the question, I object to this  line of questioning for the record on the grounds that  it is not relevant to the litigation here between the  plaintiff and the first defendant, the Province of  British Columbia.  And the plaintiffs are not making any claim  against the second defendant, who was ordered in at  the request of the first defendant.  So for the record,  I object to this line of questioning as irrelevant to  the proceedings and reserve the right to object at trial  to its admissibility.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Perhaps, Mr. Interpreter, WOUld you want the  question re-read to you by the Court Reporter?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes, I would.  THE REPORTER:  Question:  "Mr. Wright, I want to talk to you  about another area and that is  about the comprehensive land claim  that was submitted to the Federal  Government of Canada in 1977. Do  you know anything about that?"  THE WITNESS:  Yes, I remember.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Now, I intend, Mr. Grant, on pursuing some further questions in this area, and I take it you would  have the same objection that you made initially?  MR. GRANT:    I made a general objection on relevance on this  area and I take it you accept that objection.  That is  you appreciate that objection applies to the questions  on this area without my having to repeat it.  MR.  0'BYRNE:   Yes, that's my point.   I will advise  you when  I  have stopped in this area.  So it's on the understanding  this is objected to on the basis of relevancy, amongst  other things?  MR. GRANT:    Yes, amongst other things.  BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  Q     Did you, Mr. Wright, participate in the decision to  make this claim for your land to the Federal Government  of Canada?  A     It was my parents that put in a complaint.  I never had  any money,  so I didn't put anything in.  Q     By your parents, could you give us the names of your 2-154  WRIGHT, T.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. 0'Byrne  parents who did this?  A    Haadit, Sara Wright.  Q    I understood you to tell us that Sara Wright or Haadit  died in 1940?  A      She  used 'Wiiminoosikx  Wright after she was married.  before she  married and used  Sara  Her maiden name was Sara  for a moment?  up, so I'm not  sure  I asked  to  Q    Was this your mother?  A    Yes, that Was my mother.  'Wiiminoosikx.  Q    Was your mother alive in 1977?  A    Yes, she was alive.  MR. GRANT:    Could we go off the record  THE WITNESS:  Oh, no, she died in 1940.  THE INTERPRETER:   He started  to get mixed  whether we should go on.  MR. GRANT:     Just for the  record, before  we stop,  go off the record specifically for the reason that  Norman  said that it  apDeared that  he was getting  tired  because he was getting confused.  But for the  record, he started  to continue  with  the answer just after I asked and I believe the  Reporter and the video went off the record before  anything further was said to him, and then you went  back on the record indicating that she died somewhat  earlier.  So it appeared he corrected his answer with  nobody speaking to him.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said she died in 1940.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  It's 3.15 in the afternoon of May the 2nd, and  I understand, Mr. Grant, that we'll now adjourn the  Cross-Examination  of  this Commission  Evidence in regard  to Thomas Wright to the 15th day of May, 1986 at 10.30  a.m.;  is that correct?  MR. GRANT:    It's agreeable, unless there are other problems  that we discuss between now and then.  MR. 0'BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Wright.      PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3.15 P.M.  TO BE RESUMED THURSDAY,  15 MAY, 1986  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  BF/jg-May 11/86  BEVERLY FERGUSON  Official Court Reporter  B.C.S.R.A.  #259

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