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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-05-26] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 26, 1987

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 560  1 Smithers, B.C.  2 May 2 6, 1987  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:00 a.m.)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  7 Columbia, this 26th day of May, 1987.  Delgam Uukw and  8 others and Her Majesty the Queen.  9 MR. GRANT:  Before my friend proceeds, I may advise the court  10 I've had an opportunity of reviewing the book which  11 was referred to by the witness yesterday, as well as  12 another book, and I've provided the contents of both  13 of those books to my -- to both counsel, and apparent-  14 ly Mr. Plant indicated that he got them at 9:30 this  15 morning.  16 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Plant?  17 MR. PLANT:  Yes, My Lord.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Witness, I remind you you are still under oath.  19 MR. PLANT:  20 Q   I ask that the extract from the book which was  21 referred to by Mrs. McKenzie yesterday in her  22 evidence, be produced.  23 Mrs. McKenzie, will you please identify the  24 document which I put before you there, which has been  25 provided to me by your counsel, a copy of which I'm  26 also providing to you, My Lord.  2 7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  28 A   Yes, these are of my -- copies of the book I have.  29 Q   Is it all of the book or just part of it?  30 A  All this is part of what happens in the Feast House,  31 and when Delgam Uukw came to my house and I wrote down  32 what he had to say at the house.  33 Q   But that's not -- that's not the entire book, is it?  34 A   No.  Because the others are personal.  35 Q   And —  36 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, maybe as this was produced to counsel, that  37 I may elucidate matters rather than going through  38 extensive cross-examination.  I reviewed the book, and  39 this is all but three pages of the book that are  40 written on.  It's a scribbler.  The vast majority of  41 the pages in the scribbler were blank, the only pages  42 -- there were three pages excised as I reviewed them,  43 and they were not at all relevant.  This -- the  44 excerpts that you have refer not only to the meeting  45 with Mr. Tait, but as the witness has explained, to  46 references to Feasts.  And as I indicated, there is  47 another document which she provided to me with lists 561  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  PLANT  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  THE  COURT  14  THE  REGIS  15  THE  COURT  16  17  18  MR.  PLANT  19  Q  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  PLANT  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  of names of Houses which I also -- appeared to me to  be relevant.  So this -- the excerpt you have is the  entirety of the written pages except for three pages  which are some personal matters of over 15 years old,  which do not -- did not seem to bear at all on the  matters here.  All right.  I would ask that the book be marked -- or rather,  that the eight pages be marked as the next exhibit, My  Lord.  Any problem with that, Mr. Grant?  No objection, My Lord.  All right.  Next exhibit?  rRAR:  Eleven.  :  Eleven, thank you.  (EXHIBIT NO. 11-8 PAGES FROM MRS. MCKENZIE'S  BOOK)  For the record, it appears that Exhibit 11 has eight  pages.  Can you confirm that for me please, Mrs.  McKenzie, that you have eight pages there?  :  Mine does.  Yours does, yes.  Does it appear -- does your copy  have eight pages also, Mrs. McKenzie?  Yes.  Would you look at the fourth page, please, and on my  copy that has the date May 1978 in the upper right-  hand corner?  Yes.  And the first sentence on that page -- well, would you  read the first sentence because I assume that's in  your handwriting, is it?  Yes.  So would you read that, please?  "Albert Tait came to my house he wanted me to know the  mountains, creeks and rivers on Gyolugyet's land."  And I'll stop you there.  I just want to confirm that  that's true, Albert Tait did come to your home in May  1978?  Yes.  And he came because he wanted you to know the  mountains, creeks and rivers of Gyolugyet's land?  Yes.  Could you move a few pages on, it may be the last page  with the heading "November 1983"?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  MR.  PLANT  32  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT  562  I would ask that you read the entry on that page,  please?  Read the whole?  Could you read it out loud?  Read the whole thing?  Yes, please.  "November 1983.  Albert Tait came to my house again  and told me that he went up to view the territory of  Gyolugyet and other high chiefs' territories that the  Tribal Council has asked Neil Sterritt junior to make  map of the head chiefs who have approached Neil  Sterritt to make maps of boundaries, mountains,  creeks, rivers, fishing sites, hunting places and trap  lines on the head chief's territory.  He said for me  not to worry about my territory as he will help Neil  Sterritt to make maps of other chiefs' territory.  He  said he mentioned to me already before the names of  chiefs and creeks on our territory.  He wanted to  leave with me of what he knows and understands," and  there is a missed part of a word here, "of territory  by his father Luus, as we are all of one kinship."  When did you make that note, Mrs. McKenzie?  Well it says here November 1983.  And did you make it shortly after Albert Tait came to  visit you?  I made this note while he was there.  And having read it now, that's an accurate summary of  what he told you when he was there?  Yes.  It's -- it's what I wrote down, what he came for  in the house.  :  Thank you very much.  May I have that back, please?  I would ask that the second book that my friend was  able to produce for my inspection this morning, be  produced also.  :  I have produced a copy for the court and an  exhibit -- copy for an exhibit.  :  Thank you.  :  And before my friend proceeds, I may note for the  record that with respect to this book, it is in the  form -- the original is in the form of loose-leaf, a  duotang type of binder.  There are -- were more  loose-leaf pages in the book than are here, but all of  them were empty.  In other words, you have before you  a copy of the entirety of this book which has been  produced to both counsel for the province and the  Government of Canada.  :  Thank you. 1  MR.  PLANT  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  THE  COURT  16  17  A  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  PLANT  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  MR.  PLANT  46  47  THE  COURT  563  Mrs. McKenzie, I've just placed before you the  document that you've heard your counsel describe.  Can  you identify that document that you have before you  now, please?  Tell me what -- tell the court what it  is?  This is what I started for my collection of what the  names of families.  I tried to put them in different  pages, and I put down -- I put down Pdeekt, Lax Gibuu.  And "Pdeekt" in our language is "clan".  Excuse me for interrupting, but you are looking at the  top of the very first page there, aren't you?  Yes.  Yes, carry on.  :  I'm sorry, can I interrupt?  What does  P-D-E-E-K-underlined-T, mean?  Pdeekt in our language means clan.  :  Clan, thank you.  And that means -- so the reference at the top of the  page is to the Wolf Clan?  Yes.  Yes.  And the book appears to me to be a collection of  lists of names?  Yes.  And these are names that you've recorded over the  years to keep track of who the various chiefs are and  the various Gitksan names held by the people that you  know?  Yes.  These are all what I made up myself, and all the  names of head chiefs, and I tried to put them in their  family lists.  Each, as you will see pdeekt, there  were Kathleen Wale.  These are not probably   the  third page you can see that they -- I started that,  and I put all her children and her family of their  table in the Feasting House.  I have Kathleen Wale on the fourth page?  Yeah.  Under pdeekt Lax Gibuu also?  Um-hmm.  Kathleen holds the chief's name, doesn't she?  Yes, she does.  What's that name?  Gwoimt.  :  Now I will -- perhaps at this point I ask that this  document be marked as the next exhibit, My Lord.  :  Yes.  It will be Exhibit 12. 1  2 MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34 THE  COURT  35 MR.  PLANT  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  564  (EXHIBIT NO. 12 - PAGES FROM MRS. MCKENZIE'S BOOK)  Mrs. McKenzie, would you look at the fourth from the  last page in that book, and I've placed it there  before you.  And the name in capitals at the top is  Giskaast?  Giskaast.  Yes.  That's the Fireweed Clan?  Yes.  And the first name in the list is Simon Muldoe junior":  Yes.  Is he still alive?  No.  And what was the name that he held at the time of his  death?  I forget -- oh, Ax gout.  Ax gout, and that's written there as  A-H-G-A-G-underlined-O-O-T.  Was Simon Muldoe a chief  when he died?  Yes.  He had a chief name.  Was he the chief of a House?  No.  He was in Geel's House.  Is that Walter Harris' house?  Yes.  Do you know if Simon Muldoe junior had territory of  his own as a chief within Geel's House?  No, I don't.  There is another name in this book that I wanted to  ask you about, Joshua Campbell, and on one of these  pages here, Joshua Campbell's name appears under the  heading Lax See'l, and the chief's name that is given  for him -- or I should say the name that is given for  him, is K-S-I-M.  :  That's —  On about the 9th page from the beginning of Exhibit  11.  Do you have that?  Yes.  Is Joshua Campbell still alive?  Yes.  And is that name K-'-S-I-M, the name which he holds  today?  I didn't complete that -- that -- the name.  It's  supposed to be K'sim 'Woojin.  K'sim 'Wooj in?  Yes.  Is Joshua Campbell a chief? 565  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  PLANT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  PLANT  18  THE  INTER  19  20  THE  COURT  21  THE  INTER  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  PLANT  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  MR.  PLANT  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Yes.  Is he a chief of a House?  Yes.  And what is the name of the House?  The name of K'sim 'Woojin.  And does Joshua Campbell's House own territory to your  knowledge?  To my knowledge?  Yes.  Well, I'll say no to that,  because I want to be sure.  And I'll say no, because I  don't want to make any false statement.  What you really mean is you don't know?  I don't know, yes.  Excuse me, how would one --  What village does Joshua Campbell come from?  Possibly the interpreter could spell that name?  Yes.  Could we have a spelling for K'sim 'Woojin.  Sorry, yes.  PRETER:  She started spelling K-S-I-M, and from hearing  it I would spell it '-W-O-O-J-I-N.  :  J-I-N?  PRETER:  Yes.  :  Thank you.  Do you know which village Joshua Campbell comes from?  No.  I know he resides in Gitanmaax.  There is one more name I would like to ask you about,  and that's Bob Skawil.  Is Bob Skawil still alive?  No.  When he was alive, did he hold the name Laak'ix?  And  as my pronunciation is bound to be bad, the spelling I  have for it is L-A-A-K-'-I-K.  :  What page?  And I'm looking for the page.  It's the second from  the last page, and I have spelled it incorrectly.  It's L-A-A-K-'-I-X.  Do you have that before you, Mrs.  McKenzie?  Yes.  And do you see Mr. Skawil's name there?  Yes.  When he died, was he a chief?  Yes.  Was he the chief of a House?  Yes.  What was the name of the House?  Well, he is a head chief, and his chief name on here  is Laak'. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  MR. PLANT  36  THE COURT  37  38  CROSS-EXA  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  THE COURT  566  Laak'?  Laak'.  And that was also the name of the House?  Yes.  Does someone hold that name today?  No.  It hasn't been.  Does someone represent that house in this action  today, to your knowledge?  No, not to my knowledge.  What's happened to Bob Skawil's seat in the Feast  Hall?  We have -- we have a place for it.  But no one is sitting there now?  No one is sitting there.  Are there any members of Bob Skawil's house alive  today?  No, I'm afraid not.  They've all died?  Yes.  And just looking at the second to last page again of  Exhibit 12, after Bob Skawil's name, there is Wilfred  Wilson?  Yes.  Was he in Bob Skawil's house?  Wilfred Wilson's in Spookw's House.  So what about Dora Kenni K-E-N-N-I, was she in Bob  Skawil's House?  She was in Spookw's House and of course Laak', and  Laak' was in with Spookw.  And when you say "in with Spookw," do you mean part of  Spookw's wil'nat'ahl?  Yes.  Do you know where Laak's territory is?  No, I don't.  :  I have no further questions, My Lord.  :  Thank you.  Mr. Macaulay?  4INATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  Mrs. McKenzie, your mother was born in 1888?  I imagine so, if it comes from the record somewhere.  I don't know myself.  Was she born at Kispiox?  Yes.  And was that after your house had moved from Kuldo to  Kispiox?  Yes.  :  Sorry, long before? 567  1 A   She was born long after we left Kuldo.  2 MR. MACAULAY:  Long after the house left Kuldo?  Yes.  But you don't know what year, or approximately what  year the house left Kuldo?  No, I don't.  Is there a road to the -- to Kuldo at the present  time, either highway or a side road?  I've never been out past Kispiox village, so I don't  know what is up there.  Well, has any member of your house told you whether or  not there is a road, whether you can drive there, to  Kuldo?  At the present time?  Yes?  There is logging roads that are out there, but like I  say, I have never been to the place, so I can't say  that -- and I can't guess.  Well, your answer is you don't know if there is a road  or not?  No, I don't.  Has your son ever been to Kuldo?  No.  Now, you gave evidence that your husband had been to  Kuldo in 1947 or '48?  Yes.  He went to our territory.  Did he go on foot at that time?  Yes.  Your husband is a member of the Gitanmaax band, is he?  Yes.  And he is a member, or was a member of the band  coucil?  Yes.  And he was elected by the members of the band?  Yes.  And he is also the head chief of a House?  Yes.  Is he still a member of the band coucil?  No.  How many years was he a member of the band coucil?  Two years.  Is -- do you recall the late William Wale, did you  know him?  Yes.  Is he -- was he part of your wil'nat'ahl?  No.  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A 17 THE COURT  18 MR. GRANT  19 THE COURT  568  1 Q   He is not connected with your house?  2 A   No.  He is of the Lax See'l clan and I'm a Lax Gibuu.  3 Q   I see.  Did you know -- or do you know that William  4 Wale had a trap line on your -- on the territory of  5 your House?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And who told you that?  8 A  Well, I know the late William Wale when he was still  9 alive, and he talked to me about it, going out to --  10 he holds the name of Djogaslee, William Wale, so they  11 have a territory out -- it's the boundary of my -- our  12 territory.  13 THE COURT:  We should have the spelling of that.  14 THE INTERPRETER:  It's 5A.  15 THE COURT:  What number, please?  16 THE INTERPRETER:  Five A.  I don't have a 5A.  Number five on the list we have, My Lord.  Yes, all right.  2 0 MR. MACAULAY:  21 Q   I'm going to show the witness a sketch, My Lord, it's  22 part of a very small short file, it's our document 45,  23 47.  24 Now, I'm not suggesting that you ever saw this  25 sketch before, Mrs. McKenzie, but this is a -- what's  26 called a trap-line file, and it has the names of  27 various persons on that sketch, you see that?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And here is the name in the centre of this sketch is  30 the name William Wale?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And then to the right, it would be east, I guess, is  33 Johnathon Brown.  Did you know him?  34 A I know John Brown well when he was still alive.  35 Q He is dead now, is he?  36 A Yes.  37 Q And then to the south-west, Esther Holland.  That's  38 your mother, isn't it?  39 A   Yes.  4 0       Q   And you gave evidence yesterday that she did have a  41 trap line and that it's still registered in her name?  42 A Yes.  43 Q And then to the north is your name, isn't it?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Mrs. Ben McKenzie?  46 A Yes.  47 Q And the sketch shows the Nass River? 569  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Now, it appears from that sketch that William Wale has  3 a trap line in the middle of your territory, not at  4 the border.  Looks like that, doesn't it?  5 A  Well I —  6 MR. GRANT:  Well —  7 A  With that sketch, it's still the border along here.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  9 Q   You mean along the Nass River?  10 A  Along here is the border.  11 Q   Well there is a border -- yes.  The witness is  12 pointing to -- I believe she is pointing to the border  13 between the Esther Holland trap line and the William  14 Wale trap line.  That's the border you are talking  15 about?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   But that's not the border of your -- the outer border  18 of your territory?  19 A   Just the way that that sketch is made, you see, I  20 usually get the -- Djogaslee's up at this end of --  21 the way that sketch is made, I've never seen that.  22 Q   No, no.  I'm not suggesting you ever did see it.  23 Well, perhaps the witness could refer to the sketch of  24 her territory that my friend produced.  Have you got  25 that?  26 Can you find on the map where your trap line is?  27 This is the map, Exhibit 7, that your counsel has  28 produced.  Can you find where your trap line, the one  29 registered in your name is?  30 A  Well, this is Djogaslee's territory there.  31 Q   That's William Wale's?  32 A   Yeah, that's William Wale's territory there, you see,  33 and this is part of -- this is --  34 THE COURT:  The witness is indicating on the left-hand margin of  35 the outlined area on the map.  36 MR. GRANT:  On Exhibit 7.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  On Exhibit 7 the witness is showing William  38 Wale's territory to the west of the --  3 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  40 MR. MACAULAY:  — of her house territory.  41 THE COURT:  Yes, I think that's what she is indicating.  42 MR. MACAULAY:  43 Q   Now I'm asking the witness to show Your Lordship where  44 her trap line, the one registered in her name is?  45 A  When that register was made out and like I said  46 before, I've never been into this territory myself, so  47 it was just made out in the office by the game 570  1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  13  MR.  MACAU  14  15  THE  COURT  16  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  THE  COURT  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  warden's maps when the registration was made out.  So  at that time they didn't have a map in this one piece,  like, they all have them in sections.  They have them in little sections?  Yes.  But, can you point out on this map, approximately  where your trap line, the trap line registered in your  name or the trap line registered in your mother's  name, where it is on this -- within this Gyolugyet  territory?  :  Is it -- is this not a matter that counsel can  assist on?  jAY:  Well, I would be glad of any assistance my friend  can supply.  :  It may not be, but may I inquire whether Mr. Grant  can't point out where this trap line is, if --  :  Well I can say for the record, My Lord, that on this  map on Exhibit 7, are the names of each of the creeks  to which she referred when she was referring to a  specific trap line.  Yes.  So that —  But for example, the sketch that Mr. Macaulay had  just produced has the Nass River, and running  generally in what I would take to be an east-west  direction and then swinging to the north, and the  witness's trap line according to this sketch, at  least, is just after the Nass swings to the north.  Is  it not possible to locate it in that area?  The witness, while you were speaking, My Lord,  indicated, "There's the Nass River, isn't it," for the  record, and she was pointing to the river which is  labelled on the map as Xsi Txemsem --  Yes.  -- and indicated that river.  And that's my  understanding of what the Nass River is, so if that  assists my friend, fine.  All right.  I must say I have not seen this particular sketch  myself, so I understand the witness' dilemma.  I'm  feeling it myself.  I haven't seen it before this  morning myself.  It was disclosed in their documents,  but I haven't personally reviewed it.  I'm not saying  they didn't disclose it, but I haven't compared it to  this map of Exhibit 7 before.  But the fact that this witness has a registered trap  line which was partly your evidence, Mr. Grant -- 571  1  MR.  GRANT  2  THE  COURT  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  17  18  19  THE  COURT  20  21  22  MR.  GRANT  23  THE  COURT  24  25  MR.  MACAU  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Oh yes, yes.  -- and I would have thought that we shouldn't have  much difficulty locating that area on this large map.  Just one moment.  I just wish to review the evidence  so that I have it right.  My note of the evidence on  that point is that her trap line was on Xsihl Guugan,  which is 94 on your list, I think Exhibit 4 or 5.  Yes.  The list of place names.  Yes.  And that creek is on the top part of Exhibit 7, so  if that expedites matters --  All right.  But I do want to note that neither myself nor Mr.  Plant had put to this witness, the map of her  registered trap line, and so she hasn't done a  comparison by way of maps until this questioning by  Mr. Macaulay.  She has been asked to do it now and all we are  trying to do is locate where she thinks it is on the  map.  Yes.  I think I slowed things down rather than speed them  up, Mr. Macaulay.  AY:  Now, do you know whether William Wale had a registered  trap line inside your territory?  I found that out recently.  So you know now that he did have a registered trap  line?  Yes, I do know, but it's not under -- when I was  informed about it, it was on Walter Wilson's name,  because he is the Djogaslee now  But you had found out at one time William Wale had a  trap line inside your territory?  Yes.  And you found out in the -- when did William Wale die?  That I don't remember what year, but --  Quite a few years?  Several years.  And one of his sons was Clarence?  Yes.  Did you know Clarence?  Yes.  And is he still alive?  No.  He is dead now? 572  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Did you know that William Wale's trap line was  3 transferred to Clarence?  4 A   No, I didn't know that.  5 Q   You've never heard that?  6 A   No, I've never heard that.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  I don't think that I can mark this map on that  8 evidence, My Lord.  9 THE COURT:  No, I don't think so.  10 MR. MACAULAY:  11 Q   And who told you that at one time William Wale had a  12 trap line in your territory?  13 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, that was not the evidence of the witness.  14 She said that she understood that Djogaslee, Walter  15 Wilson had a trap line on her territory, not that  16 William Wale had it.  That was my note of what she  17 said.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  That's not my understanding of the evidence.  19 THE COURT:  Nor mine, but I'm not sure that Mr. Grant is not  20 right.  My note was that, "he talked to me about it."  21 I thought she said William Wale talked to her about  22 it, and then I have notes that she said he was  23 Djogaslee.  24 MR. GRANT:  That was just before that, it was Walter Wilson, she  25 gave the name -- my reference was she gave the name as  26 "Walter Wilson talked to me about it."  27 THE COURT:  All right.  28 MR. GRANT:  So I just —  2 9 MR. MACAULAY:  30 Q      Well, we'll clarify that then.  31 You found out fairly recently that William Wale  32 did have a trap line on your territory?  33 A   I found out just recently, when Walter Wilson took the  34 name of Djogaslee.  35 Q   Right.  And when did Walter Wilson take that name?  36 A  When William Wale died.  37 Q   And do you remember when William Wale died?  38 A   No, I don't.  39 Q   And did you find out at a Feasting?  Is that when you  40 found out that William Wale had a trap line on your  41 territory?  42 A  Well, in a Feasting, yes, and of course he came to me  43 because when chiefs have borders of their territory,  44 we -- we meet sometimes and discuss the territories.  45 So this is what William Wale did to me.  46 Q   Oh, William Wale himself spoke to you?  47 A  William Wale spoke to me.  This was long -- long 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  4 0 THE  COURT  41  A  42 MR.  MACAU  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  573  before, and he told me that he went there when he got  married, and I don't know what year he got married,  and he took his wife out for the first time to that --  that territory.  And he told you then, a long time ago, that he went  onto your territory?  No, he didn't say that he went there, but he told me  that he went to his territory.  But it was after that  he died, then Walter Wilson came and took the name,  and then that's when he -- Walter Wilson tried to  claim part, and Xsan Gehl Tsuuts was the name of the  creek which he tried to claim.  And then I was  notified of that, and so I said that's not so.  Well, who's the registered owner, or do you know who  the registered owner of that trap line is now?  Of William Wale's?  Yeah.  The one that William had?  I don't know.  I don't, because that's Lax See'l  territory, it's not the Lax Gibuu.  I'm talking about the -- I see.  I'm talking about the  trap line that you have discovered recently William  Wale had registered inside your territory?  Yes.  That trap line that once was registered in William  Wale's name, do you know who is the registered owner  of that trap line now?  I won't say "no," but then I'm going to say that  Walter Wilson may have registered that trap line.  But  I don't know about it, but with this I'm pretty sure  he would.  Well, is Walter Wilson part of your wilxsi bakw?  No.  And he hasn't got your permission to go trap on your  territory?  No.  And you don't know, and he hasn't told you whether or  not he is the registered owner of a trap line on your  territory?  No.  :  Is Walter Wilson alive?  Yes.  LAY:  And Walter Wilson is the head chief of this territory  over here, if you look back at the map, you don't have  to come to it.  Walter Wilson is the head chief of  this territory just to the west of your territory?  Yes. 574  1 Q Right.  On your list of the list produced this  2 morning, that last exhibit, you know the many pages of  3 listsof names?  4 A Yes.  5 Q I notice one of the names is Esther Muldoe.  Was her  6 mother also named Esther Muldoe?  7 A Are you referring with this copy?  8 Q I beg your pardon?  9 A Are you referring to this copy?  10 Q Yes.  There is a name there that appears there on one  11 of the pages, Esther Muldoe, and of course she is  12 alive, isn't she?  13 A No.  14 Q She is not?  15 A No.  16 Q Oh.  Did Esther Muldoe die in December 1975?  17 A Yes.  18 Q And is -- was she related to you, a member of your  19 family?  2 0 A No.  21 Q Was she part of your wil'nat'ahl?  22 A No.  23 Q But she was a friend of yours, was she?  24 A She is related to my husband.  25 Q And her son, is that Simon Muldoe senior?  26 A Yes.  27 Q And her grandson was Tony Muldoe?  28 A Yes.  29 Q Now, is Tony, Simon Muldoe's son?  30 A Yes.  31 Q He is a son?  32 A Yes.  33 Q And do you remember writing out a will for Esther  34 Muldoe?  35 A Yes.  36 Q Did she tell you what she wanted to put in the will?  37 A I wrote down what she wanted, she asked me to write.  38 Q Yes.  And you witnessed the will?  39 A Yes, I did.  40 Q I'll show you a photocopy.  My Lord, I'm producing two  41 pages, they are numbered 17, 18 -- and 18 from our  42 document 2313, which is an estate file.  Could you  43 look at those pages and tell His Lordship if you  44 recognize them?  45 A Yes, this is my handwriting.  46 Q And you are a -- you remember drawing up that will?  47 A Yes. 575  1 Q   Could that be marked as an exhibit, My Lord?  2 THE COURT:  That will be Exhibit 13.  3 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, before that goes in, this was a matter that  4 was raised at one of the pretrial conferences, and we  5 are not opposing it going in as exhibit, but this is a  6 document that comes out of these personal files of  7 Gitksan Indian people which happen to be in the  8 possession of the -- of the second defendant because  9 of the role that the Department of Indian and Northern  10 Affairs takes in administering estates.  So as I say,  11 I'm not asking that this document not be marked as an  12 exhibit, but I would ask that this document be sealed  13 and not available for public disclosure, because it  14 bears on the privacy of this other family, and there  15 are a series of files which -- several files which  16 have been produced in the list of documents.  Now if  17 in the normal course these persons were not -- their  18 estate were not administered by the Department of  19 Indian Affairs under the Indian Act, these files and  20 these documents would be privileged, they would be in  21 the hands of a solicitor, presumably.  But because  22 they are dealt with under the Indian Act, it deals  23 with the administration of their estates, documents  24 otherwise published do not appear to be, and that's  25 all I wish for the respect for the family and their  26 decease that this document be dealt with differently  27 than the other exhibits, and be sealed.  2 8 THE COURT:  It's not a public document?  29 MR. GRANT:  No.  It's our position it's not a public document.  3 0 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I haven't — I have no objection to  31 whatever protection my friend seeks for his clients if  32 indeed he is acting for anyone who has present  33 interest in this estate.  But I could tell Your  34 Lordship that these -- a lot of this material, and  35 certainly the material that I'm -- I now am producing  36 to the witness, is the kind of material you would find  37 in a probate file.  38 THE COURT:  That's why I was wondering if it was a public  3 9 document anyway.  40 MR. MACAULAY:  And the Minister — the Department of the  41 Minister sort of acts as a court of probate, in fact  42 their functions under the Act are also identical to  43 that of a court of probate in regard to Indian  44 estates.  45 THE COURT:  These wills are not probated through the Supreme  46 Court?  4 7 MR. MACAULAY:  No, they are not. 576  1 MR. GRANT:  And, My Lord, I may say that unlike a will that is  2 probated through the Supreme Court, until my friends  3 disclose these on their list of documents, we were  4 unable to obtain access to them.  They were not  5 public, they were kept in the -- and the position of  6 the Departmental officials were they were not for  7 public disclosure and not to be released to any member  8 of the public.  9 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, a policy question is certainly  10 involved here.  It's generally accepted that  11 litigation should be open -- as open as possible, and  12 that matters that are dealt with in litigation are  13 generally speaking, not protected from even curious  14 scrutiny.  It may be that I'll have to make a  15 definitive ruling on this question in due course.  I  16 think for the time being no harm would be done if I  17 accede Mr. Grant's request for the time being, and  18 order that the -- this exhibit and others of this kind  19 that come along, and which are specifically mentioned  20 by counsel, are -- are not open to inspections for the  21 time being.  And when a volume of them arises  22 sufficient to get a sense of what's involved in the  23 matter, then it may be, as I said, that I'll have to  24 rule definitively.  But for the time being, this  25 exhibit which will be Exhibit 13, will not be open to  26 public scrutiny.  2 7 MR. MACAULAY:  My Lord.  28 (EXHIBIT NO. 13-2 PAGES FROM ESTATE FILE)  2 9 MR. MACAULAY:  30 Q   Now Mrs. McKenzie, I'm showing you another document  31 from the same file, it's a form of sworn declaration,  32 an affidavit.  Do you recall swearing that affidavit  33 attesting to the execution of Esther Muldoe's will?  34 A   Yes, I remember this.  35 Q   Yeah.  Did you go to the office of the Indian agent?  36 A   Yes.  I was called there so I went over.  37 Q   And you were asked to swear an affidavit that you were  38 a witness to the execution of the will?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Could that be marked as the next exhibit?  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  That will be 14.  42 MR. GRANT:  My comments would apply to that.  43 THE COURT:  Yes, also to be sealed.  Not sealed, I'm sorry, it  44 doesn't need to be physically sealed, but not to be  45 inspected.  46 (EXHIBIT NO. 14 - AFFIDAVIT OF MARY MCKENZIE)  4 7 MR. MACAULAY: 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  MR.  MACAU  17  THE  COURT  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  THE  COURT  22  23  24  MR.  MACAU  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  577  And this will provided amongst other things, that  Simon Muldoe senior and Tony Muldoe, that's Simon's  son, were to have a house and land on the Gitanmaax  reserve?  Yes.  That's the paragraph numbered two, isn't it, numbered  two on the first page of this exhibit, the will?  :  My Lord, I would ask that the document appears to  say that there is some land to Mrs. Muldoe and it's  situated on the Hazelton reserve.  And then the  paragraph 2, "The house and land situated on the  left-hand side of my house on the Hazelton reserve."  And I just ask if my friend is going to lead the  witness as to what the document says that he be  precise as to what the document says for the record.  LAY:  I was being precise.  :  Is there something different between Gitanmaax and  Hazelton reserve?  Are they two different things?  :  There may be more than one reserve, I don't know,  with respect to this, I don't know.  :  All right.  Well, I'm sure if it's a matter of  importance it can be cleared up.  You might ask the  witness, Mr. Macaulay.  LAY:  Yes, all right.  The property referred to in that --  in this will is property of the Gitanmaax reserve at  Hazelton?  Yes.  That's the same reserve that you live on?  Yes.  All right.  And -- now in the case of the bequest by  Esther Muldoe to her son and to his son, is that in  accordance with the Gitksan law concerning  inheritance?  It's a property that the grandparents have worked on  and built a house on.  Yes?  And it's -- those are the kind of properties that  could be passed onto a son or a grandson, it's not on  a territory of the highs chiefs.  This is the property  that Esther Muldoe and her husband Tommy Muldoe, own  and built a house there.  So this is the reason why he  mentioned his grandson on there as well.  So it's an exception to the usual rule about  inheritance, is it?  Yes.  In this kind of matter.  Yes.  That kind of property isn't governed by the 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  578  Gitksan law?  No.  I don't.  And if Esther Muldoe owned property in Prince Rupert,  she -- that property wouldn't have been governed by  Gitksan law?  No.  The only property governed by Gitksan law is the  property -- the territory of her own House; is that  right?  Yes.  I take it that -- well, whose House is that property,  the property that Tony -- Simon and Tony Muldoe  inherited?  Is that on anybody's -- does it belong to  any head chief?  No. It belongs to their family, to the Muldoe family.  You see there is two sections, lots, on that property.  Yes?  And one section belonged to Simon Muldoe senior.  Yes?  And the other portion belongs to Esther and Tommy  Muldoe where the house is built on.  So those two houses aren't on the territory of any  head chief at all?  No, not at all.  Okay.  There is a Feast House at Kispiox, is there?  Yes, there is.  Were they once called potlatch houses, Feast House or  is there a difference?  That's the word and the expression that the non-  Indians use, is a potlatch.  A potlatch house is a --  And Feasting House to us.  You call it a Feasting House?  We call it a Feasting House.  And who owns the Feasting House at Kispiox?  It belongs to the village.  Does any one House or head chief own the Feasting  House?  No.  Does each clan have its own Feasting House at Kispiox?  A long time of only -- I've only seen them as they are  broken down in Kispiox, that each chief would have  their own House and they use it as their Feasting  House as well.  So that a head chief would have a long house?  Yes.  And that was the Feasting House for his clan? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  2 0 THE  COURT  21  A  22 MR.  MACAU  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  579  Yes.  Have I got it right?  Yes.  So that in Kispiox, there would be a Wolf Clan  Feasting House and one for the Fireweed and one for  the Frog Clan?  Each chief would have their own Feasting House, not  the clan.  Like Geel would have one, and another chief  in his House would have another house, and they are  all long houses and they use as Feasting Houses at  that time.  And Nicodemus, your predecessor --  Yes.  -- many years ago --  Yeah.  -- he had his own long house, did he?  He -- he did have his own long house, yes.  And that was the Feasting House for Gyolugyet?  Yes.  :  At Kispiox?  At Kispiox, yes.  LAY:  At Kispiox.  Do you know Amelia Wilson?  Yes.  She was Amelia Angus?  Yes.  Is she still alive?  No.  Is she related to you?  She is part of my wil'nat'ahl, yes.  And she was related to Peter Robinson, wasn't she?  Yes.  Was she his niece?  Amelia Angus or Amelia Wilson is from Amagyat's House.  Yes?  And Kwamoon, Peter Robinson, took her at that time  when she was first brought into Kwamoon's family, that  she -- Kwamoon's wife was -- was ill all the time so  she needed someone to look after her, so this is the  reason why they got Amelia to look after Mrs.  Robinson.  But she was quite young at the time, so she  was brought up by Peter Robinson and his wife, and  this made her feel that she really -- Peter Robinson  was an uncle.  Yes.  Well then when Peter Robinson brought her in to  look after his wife, that's how it started? 580  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Did she become a member of your House?  3 A  Well as I said, she is a member of the wil'nat'ahl.  4 You see our wil'nat'ahl is Gyolugyet's House, Kwamoon,  5 Hlo'oxs, Madiik and Wii elaast and Amagyat.  You see  6 the people in these houses is my wil'nat'ahl.  7 Q   Yes?  8 A   So in that case, Amelia is still a wil'nat'ahl  9 although she is from Amagyat's House and then she was  10 brought up in Kwamoon's house.  11 THE COURT:  Peter Robinson was the house of Kwamoon, wasn't he?  12 A   Yes.  13 MR. MACAULAY:  14 Q   Now Peter Robinson when he died in 1935 --  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   -- he was succeeded by Sam Green?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Was he Kwamoon?  19 A   In the Feasting we announced that there was -- at that  20 time there was no one that is capable of taking the  21 name, so we had -- this is another way of the Gitksan  22 put their ways to resolve after a while.  So we --  23 they took Sam Green and they announced that he'll hold  24 onto that name, but he wasn't called Kwamoon, he just  25 held it in the name.  26 Q   Did he sit in Kwamoon's chair?  27 A   No.  He was blind so he didn't go anywhere.  2 8 Q   What did he do with Kwamoon's name then?  29 A   He -- we just -- well, say -- he just -- we just had  30 him to hold onto the name, and like the exhibits you  31 have now that are sealed, you -- it's in somebody's  32 hand.  Well that's the same thing that he is doing  33 with this name, he is just has it.  So whenever we  34 know of a person that's capable of taking the name and  35 to become a chief, well we have to have a Feasting,  36 and tell the people that we are taking this name out  37 of Sam Green's hands, and it will go onto capable  38 person becoming chief.  39 Q   Well, you took it from Sam Green, didn't you?  40 A   Yes, I did.  41 Q   In 1942?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   But when Peter Robinson was Kwamoon, did he have his  44 own hunting ground on the Nass?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And then was that in the territory shown on Exhibit 7  47 here, your territory? 581  Yeah.  Was it in there?  Yes, it's in there somewhere.  And did he have a Feast House?  Yes.  At Kispiox?  At Kispiox, yes.  And did you ever hear that he made a will leaving the  hunting ground and the Feast House to Amelia Angus or  Amelia Wilson?  No.  You never heard that?  I never heard that.  Amelia Wilson or her husband never spoke to you about  that?  No.  And you never heard it from anyone else?  No.  Because they were not in Kispiox or at Gitanmaax  for many years, they were living between Steveston  down south and Prince Rupert and Port Edward.  You were -- they were?  They were, yes.  LAY:  Yes.  Actually, My Lord, if it's convenient now,  24 this may be a useful time.  25 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  We will take the morning adjourn-  2 6 ment.  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned for  28 15 minutes.  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  2 3 MR.  MACi 582  1  2  3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15 a.m.)  4  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings herein transcribed to the  9 best of my skill and ability.  10  11    12 Toni Kerekes  13 O.R., R.P.R.  14 United Reporting Service Ltd.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 583  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO MORNING RECESS)  THE  THE  MR.  Order in court.  Macaulay?  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 THE  33 MR.  34  35  36  37  38 THE  3 9 MR.  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  REGISTRAR:  COURT:  Mr.  MACAULAY:  Q   Mrs. McKenzie, do you remember in the year 1943 that  somebody took lumber from the Old Feast House of  Kwamoon?  A   From where did they?  Q   Well, the -- Kwamoon did have a Feast House?  A   Yes.  Q   And was that the house you pointed out last week on a  photograph you identified as Nicodemus' house?  That was Gyolugyet's House I pointed out.  It was Gyolugyet's House?  Yes.  Does that same photograph show Kwamoon's House?  No.  But Kwamoon did have a House?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  It doesn't.  Yes.  And it was still standing in 1943?  Yes.  And do you remember that Robert Angus took away some  lumber from the Old Feast House?  No, I didn't know that.  You were never told that?  No, I was never told that.  I don't know.  And you didn't -- did you speak to the Indian agent at  the time about what should be done about the Old Feast  House?  No.  Just a moment, please.  Mr. Grant?  I'm just wondering if my friend is referring to  specific conversations that she had.  If it's a  specific person he's referring to, there were a number  of Indian agents in the area at the time and I'm not  certain who he's referring to.  Are you able to be specific Mr. Macaulay?  MACAULAY:  Q   Well, the Indian agent, the man at the time, appears  to be a Mr. Mullenson.  Do you remember Mr. Mullenson?  Yes.  Did you speak to Mr. Mullenson at all about the --  what should be done about the Old Feast House?  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  A  Q  A   No.  Q   And do you recall whether or not Tommy Jack and  Maryanne Brown demolished the Old Feast House? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  584  What House is that?  Is that Kwamoon or Gyolugyet?  Kwamoon's.  Kwamoon's Old Feast House.  Yes.  You remember that they did?  Yes.  And that was your property by that time wasn't it?  Yes.  And they had your permission to demolish the House  there?  Yes.  You recall that Amelia Wilson claimed that the House  was hers?  Rephrase that question again?  Well, did you know that Amelia Wilson was saying that  Old Feast House was her House, not Tommy Jack's or  Maryanne Brown's or yours?  Well, I -- this is the first time I've heard of things  like that.  You never --  No one -- no one has mentioned anything to me about --  or what was said by a third party.  That wasn't reported to you at all?  No, not at all.  And was that an important event, the demolishing of  the Old Feast House?  Yes.  You have to put a Feasting on if you demolish a  Feasting House.  And is that the -- does the story of the demolition of  the Old Feast House, is that in the adaawk of  Gyolugyet?  It has to.  It has to because it's a House of a chief.  Were there any headstones in the Old Feast House?  Not that I know of.  Or nearby?  No.  No.  Is Tommy Jack still alive?  No.  Okay.  And Maryanne Brown?  Yes, she died too.  She's died too.  Now, in the case of a burial, whose  responsibility is it to pay those who dig the grave,  make the coffin, and attend to the other steps that  need to be looked after in the case of a burial?  Who pays these people?  Yes.  It's the -- like for instance if one of my child dies.  Yes? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Q  585  And I'm the person that's responsible for all the  expenses to be paid and who I approach to do these  things.  Well, you approach the father's side do you?  Yes.  And they're asked to do certain things?  Yes.  But they expect to be compensated for the things they  do?  Yes.  And that's your responsibility is it?  Yes.  In the case of your mother, would that be your  responsibility to pay for whatever was necessary?  Yes.  And so that the -- the expense of a Burial Feast  doesn't come out of the pot that is collected at the  Burial Feast, it comes -- you have to pay that  yourself?  Would you rephrase that again?  At a Burial Feast there is -- money is collected?  Yes.  And after a Burial Feast various people have to be  paid for the things that they've done?  Yes.  Now, the payment to those people, to the man who dug  the grave, does that money come from the pot that was  collected at the Burial Feast or does it not?  It comes from the pot at the Feasting that's  collected.  And who contributes to the pot?  The family.  The —  Wil'nat'ahl?  -- wil'nat'ahl.  And all the other Lax Gibuu Clan help  to -- contributes to the pot.  So that in the end it doesn't -- the cost of the  burial doesn't falling on your shoulders in the case  of one of your children or your mother?  Well, the way it is that if I had the money to pay  this, say you talk big, maybe I have a thousand  dollars and I put it in the pot, and the next my  children come and help with that, well that thousand  dollars is put in my name in record --  Yes?  -- of who contributes.  Okay.  So that your contribution goes to the pot? 586  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And then other money is collected as well?  3 A   Yes.  4 THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Macaulay, as I have it from the witness  5 now, she has said that it is her responsibility to see  6 these things are done both for her children and for  7 her mother?  8 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  9 THE COURT:  Is that right?  10 MR. MACAULAY:  That's what I understand.  That's my  11 understanding of the evidence.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 THE WITNESS:   Would you repeat —  14 THE COURT:  Well, you have told me, I think, that the  15 responsibility to call upon the father's family to do  16 these things --  17 THE WITNESS:   Yes?  18 THE COURT:  — falls upon you both for — in the case of the  19 death of one of your children and in the death of your  20 mother?  21 THE WITNESS:   Whoever is -- has passed on in my family, the  22 head chief has to -- is responsible of the burial of  23 that person.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, then —  25 THE WITNESS:   Whether it's my sister or my mother or my brother  26 I'm responsible.  27 THE COURT:  So is this responsibility something that belongs to  28 you as head chief or -- and not as a member of the  2 9 family?  30 THE WITNESS:   As head chief.  31 THE COURT:  As head chief.  Sorry, Mr. Macaulay.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  33 Q   In the case of a person who has no relatives who are  34 head chiefs or even sub-chiefs, whose responsibility  35 is it to look after the burial?  36 A   I'm sorry, would you rephrase that?  37 Q   Well, there must be quite a number of people on the  38 Hazelton-Gitanmaax reserve --  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   -- whose parents are not head chiefs or whose parents  41 have no names of chiefs?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   There are quite a lot of people like that, aren't  44 there?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   When one of them dies, whose responsibility is it to  47 look after the burial? 1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  587  It's the responsibility of the House they're in.  You  see we go by the House of the chief, and even if these  people don't have names or anything, but they're still  in a House of a chief.  Yes?  And it's the -- whoever dies it's the responsibility  of the head chief, sub-chief and the wings of a House.  So if somebody in Kwamoon's House dies, then it's  Kwamoon's responsibility to see that the burial is  properly done; is that right?  Yes.  And Kwamoon will contribute to the pot?  Yes.  And other family members will as well?  Yes.  How long did you live in Kispiox before you moved to  Hazelton?  I was born there.  In 1924 we left Kispiox.  Our House  burned down there so we moved to Hazelton.  To Hazelton.  And when you were a young person, was it  the case that a lot of families moved out to the coast  during the fishing season?  Yes.  Do you remember in the mid-1930's having to -- these  people having to go down to Vancouver on the train and  then taking a boat up to Prince Rupert?  Yes.  You remember that year?  I remember that year.  That was because the Skeena was in flood or something  like that, was it?  Yes.  And it had washed out the railroad?  Yes.  Did most of the people on the Hazelton reserve go down  to the coast at that time?  Yes.  And today do a large number still go during the  fishing season to the coast?  No, but the fishermans that have boats to do the  fishing down there, they're probably the only ones,  and very few women go down to work in canneries.  There are not many anymore?  Not too many.  Well, all the fishermans, yes, there's  quite a number of fishermens along the Skeena River.  They all go down.  The Tribal Council is involved in commercial fishing, 1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15 THE (  COU]  16  17  18 MR. I  VACi  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  isn't it?  I -- to be honest with you I don't understand that at  all.  I don't know.  Well, there are over 70 boats, commercial fishing  boats, that are owned by the Gitksan?  I'm afraid I have to answer you again that I don't  know about the fishing down the coast.  You know a lot of people who go -- who have boats?  I know from Kispiox and Gitanmaax --  Yes?  -- people go down, do their fishing.  And do they bring back canned salmon from the coast?  No, not that I know of.  There may have been, but  I'm -- I'll say I don't know.  :  Mr. Macaulay, when you refer to the coast, do you  mean the Lower Mainland of the province or do you mean  Prince Rupert?  LAY:  Yes.  We're talking about Prince Rupert territory and  Port Essington, I believe.  When we talk about going to the coast, it's the  coast at Prince Rupert or near Prince Rupert?  Yes, it's near Prince Rupert.  Some people go down to Hazelton, I suppose, do they --  I'm sorry, go down to the Lower Mainland to do  fishing?  You mentioned Amelia Wilson, where was it,  Steveston?  Yes.  Are there many Gitksan who go down to Steveston?  Well, it's about the only family that I do know at  that time that go down to work in the canneries at  Steveston.  And did members of your family -- did your parents go  to the coast during the fishing season?  Yes, we did.  Your mother, for instance, worked at Nelson Brothers?  One year, yes.  And did your father go fishing?  Yes.  And your brother, he did commercial fishing?  No.  George Holland, that's your brother?  Yes.  He never --  No, he never at all.  He never fished?  No. 589  1 Q   I take it that fishing is not one of your main  2 interests; is that right?  3 A   No, I'm afraid not because it's in 1946 when we  4 completely -- like my husband and even my children was  5 the last year we went down in 1946 because the  6 children were small and we figured that it was  7 dangerous for them so we just never went down ever  8 since.  9 THE COURT:  Was that the last year your husband fished?  10 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  11 THE COURT:  Thank you.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  13 Q   Now, Mrs. McKenzie, do you remember telling the court  14 that even though some of your grandchildren live in or  15 near Vancouver, they're still Gitksan; you recall that  16 evidence?  17 A   Yes.  Yes.  18 Q   Does that same thing apply to people of Gitksan origin  19 who live in Ontario, in Toronto or Hamilton or some  20 place like that?  21 A   To us they're still Gitksan.  22 Q   And is that so even though these children may have  23 been born in Vancouver or some other place outside the  24 territory?  25 A   Yes, because our roots are in our territory.  26 Q   Right now some of your grandchildren have been born  27 in -- outside the territory haven't they?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And they very seldom come to the territory some of  3 0 them?  31 A   Some of them.  Yes.  32 Q   And the -- your grandchildren, do many of them speak  33 the Gitksan language?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   They do?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Do they all speak it?  38 A   Not all of them, but they understand.  39 Q   Yes.  Are there any Gitksan that you know of who don't  40 speak the Gitksan language at all and don't understand  41 it?  42 A  When children are born the parents speak to them in  43 Gitksan and they do very well until they start going  44 to kindergarten.  45 Q   Yes?  46 A  And that's when they start speaking English.  47 Q   Yes? 1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  MR.  MACAU  30  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  MR.  MACAU  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  41  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  THE  COURT  45  46  MR.  GRANT  47  590  Because especially our high school in Hazelton, it's  amalgamated so that all the different nationalities of  children, students that attend that school, have to  speak English --  Yes?  -- to one another.  But there are a lot of those children and older people  too, that is, people in their 20's, who aren't able to  speak Gitksan, isn't that so?  Would you rephrase that?  I didn't catch the first  one.  Well, there are a lot of young people in the Hazelton  area?  Yes.  People who are now in their 20's, 23 or 24, perhaps  older, who don't speak any Gitksan?  No, that's right.  That's right, isn't it?  Yes.  But they are still Gitksan whether they speak it or  not?  Yes.  They were born as Gitksan so they are Gitksan.  And in the case of the marriage between a Gitksan and  a white, the children, they're Gitksan are they?  Yes.  Even if the mother is married to a white person,  we still see her as Gitksan.  And her children are --  And her children.  LAY:   -- are Gitksan.  Now, in those cases the  children don't hear Gitksan at home before they go to  school, do they, where a Gitksan marries a white?  : My Lord, I think my friend is now moving into a far  realm of hypothesis here.  LAY:  No, I'm not.  : He's talking about in those cases, the cases of a  Gitksan marrying a white, and the witness -- if  conjecture of the witness is what he wants, he will  get it, but --  :  Well, I think that the witness has been asked to  speak generally about the Gitksan people and I think  she can be cross-examined about that.  It may be that  the last question was a little bit on the vague side.  : That's the only question I was concerned about.  :  Yes. All right.  Certainly the witness can be asked  for examples and things of that kind.  : I have no objection to that and I have no objection  to what he said, except that last question we were 591  1 moving a little beyond that.  2 MR. MACAULAY:  3 Q Well, do you know Gitksan people who have married  4 whites?  5 A Yes.  6 Q You know several?  7 A Yes.  8 Q You know their children?  9 A Yes.  10 Q And those children, do they usually have difficulty  11 speaking Gitksan, the ones who come from a family  12 where one party is Gitksan and the other is white?  13 A Yes.  14 MR. MACAULAY:   Now, is there a point at which a person is no  15 longer Gitksan in this sense:  If a -- somebody who's  16 half Gitksan marries a white, then their children  17 would be a quarter Gitksan?  That's how I work it out  18 anyhow.  19 THE COURT:  Your mathematics is right.  2 0 MR. MACAULAY:  21 Q Yes.  Would those children be Gitksan, the ones who  22 were a quarter Gitksan.  23 A If -- how did you phrase that?  Would you repeat that  24 again, please?  25 Q You know quite a few people who are half Gitksan,  2 6 don't you?  27 A What do you mean half Gitksan?  28 Q Well, their father is Gitksan and their mother is  29 white, half in that sense, or their mother is Gitksan  30 and their father is white?  31 A Well, when a Gitksan male marries a white lady.  32 Q Yes?  33 A Automatically that lady is -- goes on the husband, so  34 she's noted as a Gitksan.  35 Q She becomes a Gitksan?  36 A Yes.  37 Q Is that according to Gitksan law?  38 A Well, it —  39 Q I'm not talking about the Indian Act now, is that  40 according to Gitksan law?  Where a Gitksan marries a  41 white woman --  42 A Yes.  43 Q -- under Gitksan law does she become Gitksan?  44 A How did you put that?  I'm muddled up.  45 Q Well, if a man who's Gitksan --  46 A Yes.  47 Q -- marries a white woman? 592  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Does the wife, the white woman who's now the wife,  3 does she become a Gitksan because she's married to a  4 Gitksan?  5 A  Well, she becomes one.  6 Q   Yes?  7 A   Yes.  Because she has to go under our laws when she's  8 married to a male Gitksan.  9 THE COURT:  And the other way around?  10 THE WITNESS:   When — take like for instance — I'm getting  11 mixed up so I'm going to put it as an illustration of  12 my family.  See I have three daughters and they're all  13 married to white people and my three daughters are  14 still Gitksan you see.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  16 Q   Are the husband's Gitksan?  17 A   No.  18 Q   They're not?  19 A   Because they not registered as Gitksan, they're still  20 white people, but their wives are and their children  21 are.  And we still give names to them and do the  22 Feasting with my three daughters and their children.  23 Q   And how about grandchildren?  Have you any  24 grandchildren?  25 A   I have grandchildren, I have great-grandchildren.  2 6 MR. MACAULAY:   And they're all —  27 MR. GRANT: Maybe you can get down a little further, Mr.  28 Macaulay.  2 9 MR. MACAULAY:  30 Q   And they are all Gitksan are they?  31 A   The ones that -- my son's children -- would you phrase  32 that again?  I think I'm giving you the wrong answer.  33 Q   Well, you mentioned you had grandchildren and  34 great-grandchildren and I asked you if they were all,  35 all the grandchildren and all the great-grandchildren,  36 were all Gitksan?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   They are?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Well, you say your daughters all married white men?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And their children are your grandchildren?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And did any of them marry white people, the  45 grandchildren?  46 A   Just one.  47 Q   One did? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  593  Yes.  All right.  In the case of that one, have they, that  one, does he or she have a child?  Yes, she has a child.  She has?  Yes.  And is that a Gitksan?  Yes.  That's a great-grandchild that is Gitksan?  Yes, he's still Gitksan.  And it will go on and on that way?  Yes.  Now, that person, is she married to a Gitksan or a  white?  A white person.  Yes.  Jonathon Brown, you remember Jonathon Brown?  Yes.  He's dead now?  Yes.  He was enfranchised, wasn't he?  Yes, he was.  That means he lost his status as a member of the band?  Yes.  Yes.  That -- but he still remained Gitksan?  Yes.  The fact that he became enfranchised didn't make any  difference?  No, he still addressed as the Gitksan, he still  remembered in Feastings.  And today anybody who gives up his status as a member  of, let's say the Gitanmaax band, still remains a  Gitksan?  Yes.  And their children are Gitksan?  Yes.  Now, what about a white person who was adopted into a  Gitksan House, that happens sometimes doesn't it?  Yes, it does.  Have you adopted any white person into your House?  No, I haven't.  Do you know of any people who have been adopted into  Gitksan houses as adults? I'm not talking about  children now, as adults who have been adopted?  Yes.  Who do you know has been adopted?  I know Ian Anderson has been adopted into a Lax Gibuu  House. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  594  Do you know any others?  I know Peter Grant is adopted into Nicodemus' House.  Yes.  And can you think of any others, Heather Harris?  Yes, Heather Harris has been adopted.  Now, does that -- are they -- then under Gitksan law,  they are Gitksan?  When that adoption, kind of an adoption, they -- we  let people know that they're not Gitksan, that they  just have been adopted, a white person being adopted.  If that white person has a family, does his children  or her children become Gitksan?  No.  Take Mr. Anderson, I think that was the first name you  mentioned?  Yes.  If he has children -- I don't know if he has or not, I  hadn't heard the name.  Does he have children, Mr.  Anderson?  No.  Not a very good example.  If he did have children,  would they be Gitksan?  Well, Mr. Anderson is married to a Gitksan woman,  so --  So the answer is yes his children would be?  Yes, yes.  But in the case of another white person who's already  married to a white woman and has children and then is  adopted, does his family become Gitksan?  No.  No.  And if he has more children after he has been  adopted, they still don't become Gitksan?  No, they don't.  That adoption must be a fairly new thing, you don't do  that under some old or ancient Gitksan law?  Yes.  It is?  Yes, it is.  We have adoptions.  Oh, you have adoptions?  Yes.  But not adoptions outside the Gitksan nation?  No, not outside nation, but within the Gitksan, yes,  we have.  But the idea of adopting people who aren't Gitksan at  all, that's a new idea?  Yes.  It became that way when our -- our young people  married to a white lady or to a white person.  But it's essential that everybody belong to a clan, 595  1 isn't it, in the Gitksan system?  2 A Yes.  3 Q So what clan -- if a Gitksan man marries a white  4 woman, what clan are the children?  5 A How did you work that?  6 Q Well, a Gitksan man of say the Lax Gibuu --  7 A Yes.  8 Q -- Clan marries a white woman?  9 A Yes.  10 Q And they have children?  11 A Yes.  12 Q Are the children Lax Gibuu?  13 A No.  14 Q No, they can't be, can they?  15 A No, they can't.  16 Q Right.  17 A We go on the mother's side every time.  18 Q Right. So although they're Gitksan, they have no clan;  19 is that right?  That's the result?  20 A I can't -- I'm not with you.  If she may interpret  21 that to me?  22 Q All right.  Perhaps the interpreter --  23  24 (INTERPRETER INTERPRETS QUESTION)  25  26 A Well, if my son marries a white lady their children  27 won't be as a Gitksan because he's -- his children  28 don't belong to my clan.  29 Q So if your son marries a white lady and they have  30 children, those children are not Gitksan?  31 A No.  No.  32 Q Because they have no clan?  33 A Yes.  34 Q And a person's occupation doesn't make any difference,  35 does it?  If a Gitksan becomes a chemical engineer and  36 goes to New York he's still a Gitksan?  37 A Yes, that's right.  38 Q And if a Gitksan person never attends the Feasts he's  39 still Gitksan?  40 A He's a Gitksan.  41 Q If he can't speak any -- speak or understand the  42 Gitksan language, he's still a Gitksan?  43 A Gitksan, yes.  44 Q Provided he always has a clan?  45 A Yes.  4 6 MR. MACAULAY:  If I may have a moment, My Lord?  I have no more  47 questions for Mrs. McKenzie.  Thank you. 596  MR.  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Grant?  MACAULAY:  Yes, My Lord, I wonder if we could — I know it's  a bit early, but if we could take the lunch hour now  and I would resume my redirect and --  COURT:  Should we come back at 1:30?  GRANT: Yes, 1:30, that's fine.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned  until 1:30.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH RECESS)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  h2  2  3  4  5 THE  6 MR.  7 THE  8 THE  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24 THE  25  2 6 THE  2 7 MR.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter  Mary McKenzie (for Plaintiffs)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 1:30 p.m.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court,  still under oath.  Mr. Grant.  Witness, I remind you you are  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Mrs. McKenzie, in answer to a question to you by Mr.  Plant, you said that the three names Anda ap,  Niisgiminuu, and Guu wo'otxw are all from one House;  is that correct?  Yes.  Are those three chiefs in the House of Gutginuxw?  Yes.  Now I would like to refer to Exhibit 11.  This is the  excerpts from your notebook that were produced this  morning, and I will refer you first to the May '78  entry.  Mr. Plant read part of that entry to you, and I  would like to refer you to the rest of it.  He stated  he named -- or the statement is "He named the Houses  that we have at Kuldo.  Gyolugyet - see-goo-gan,  Kwamoon, suugaisay," or suugaisax, "Medeek, sunnaloop,  Hloos, san gilh tswaat," and "woos," and a blank.  Now  are those references to creeks or to names of those  Houses?  The one on -- facing the thing. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  597  On the right-hand side?  It's on the right-hand side, these are names of the  chiefs and these are the creeks that I mentioned this  on the territory.  Okay.  And did he talk to you about those names at  that meeting?  With Albert Tait?  Yes?  Yes.  Did you know the names of those creeks before that  meeting with Albert Tait?  Yes, I did know.  They were mentioned by my  grandmother many times.  Okay.  Going on with the reference, it says, "That  each one knows the creeks, mountains, the width and  length of portion of ground they own."  Is that  something that Albert said?  Yes.  Then you go on and the statement says, "He said he  knows that my family, my children and grandchildren  will be old enough in the next few years, they will be  able to go to our land."  Is that a statement he made  to you then?  Yes, that's the statement he made to me.  And then:  "So to kept in mind the names of chiefs of  our Houses, songs and all the crests, etc. by telling  me this he reminded me to keep all the Houses, crests  on my mind and never to forget them."  Is that what he  discussed with you?  Yes.  And that's an accurate statement of what occurred, or  a summary of what happened when Albert visited you in  May of 1978?  Yes.  At the time that Albert came to visit you in May 1978,  did you, Gyolugyet, were you preparing for this  litigation in that meeting?  No.  Was the possibility of this court case discussed with  Albert Tait in May 1978?  No.  I would like you to refer to the last page of this  particular reference, the November 1983 meeting.  And  you refer that:  "Albert Tait came to my house again  -- my home again and told me that he went up to view  the territory of Gyolugyet and other high chiefs'  territories that the tribal council has asked Neil 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  MR.  PLANT  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  598  Sterritt junior to make a map of the head chiefs who  have approached Neil Sterritt to make maps of  boundaries, mountains, creeks, rivers, fishing sites,  hunting places and trap lines on the head chiefs'  territories."  Now that first part of that, is that a  summary of comments that Albert made to you?  Yes.  Okay.  And do you know whether Neil Sterritt was in  that process of doing that at that time?  Yes, he did at that time.  And he went and -- and the statement goes on:  "He  said for me not to worry about my territory as he will  help Neil Sterritt to make maps of other chiefs'  territory.  He said he mentioned to me already before  the names of chiefs and creeks on our territory.  He  wanted to leave with me of what he knows and understands of this territory by his father Luus, as we are  all of one kinship."  Is that last half of that page,  is that a summary of what Albert said to you in  November 1983?  Yes, that's correct.  And is it correct that he is -- akin to you through  his father Luus?  Yes.  In your questioning by Mr. Plant, you indicated in  your cross-examination that -- and I quote -- "All  Gitksan babies get names at birth."  Now I would like  you to refer to the first page of Exhibit 11.  :  I wonder if my friend would be able to direct me  to -- direct the court to the place in the transcript  where the quote comes from, if that's where he has  taken his reference.  :  Are you able to do that, Mr. Grant?  :  I don't have it here.  I believe one of my  associates will be able to refer to it in a moment.  :  All right.  With respect to the first page of Exhibit 11, there is  a reference to the Burial Feast of Jessie Olson.  Are  the names that are referred to there, there is English  names and then there appears to be Gitksan names, is  that right, that are capitalized?  Yes.  Are those names that were given at that Burial Feast?  Yes, they were.  Was Dianna Claremont a child?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  599  And was she given that name at that Feast?  Yes.  Turn to the second page.  There is notes of name -- it  says "Names given at Alice Jefferies' Feast of Miriam  Russell headstone."  Do you recall approximately when  that was?  It's all right if you can't remember, just  if you can give us a sense?  I can't remember if it was just this last fall or a  year ago.  Okay.  Now again, are those names that are listed  there, are those names that were given to the people  whose English names are beside them at that Feast?  Yes.  Was Molly Jane a child?  Supposed to be Jones there.  Molly Jones?  Yes.  Was that a child?  No.  She is a daughter of Wallace and Miriam Danes?  What about Debbie Wesley?  She is the 9th daughter of Wallace and Miriam Danes.  And Terry Danes?  Yes.  He is a son of?  Son of Wallace and Miriam.  Go over to the next page, and my reference is the  "October 7th, 1984 Hagwilget Burial Feast of Teresa  Wilson."  And you were at this Feast?  Yes.  You were at all of the Feasts that were referred to in  this exhibit, right?  Yes.  That's why I have them all down.  Because they are your notes?  Yes, they are my notes.  And once again, you have a reference of names that  were given out at that Feast?  Yes.  Okay.  And the bottom two, Charlene Duncan and Penny  Duncan, are those young people who received names at  that Feast?  Yes.  They were the daughter of Mary Duncan and  Leonard Duncan.  We've already discussed the next page.  Going two  pages over, there is a note, "Names given to Clare  Weget's children."  Now, do you recall at what event  this occurred?  All these children weren't given the names all at one 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  600  time.  Okay.  But as -- I see.  But as of this time they all  have names?  Yes.  Okay.  And were they given -- these children given  names while they were children?  Say in their teens.  Okay.  And what's the last name there, after Clifford,  is that Wanda?  Yes.  Says "Wand" but it should be "Wanda"?  Yeah.  There is no "a" at the end there.  Okay.  Now referring to the February 21, 1981 entry,  this was a Feast in Kitwanga for the burial for Jamie  Harris?  Yes.  And part way down you have a note, "Names were given  to members of Houses.  These are all Mazel (per  Harris) children."  And the names under that are  "Antkolilbiixsw to Christopher."  Was he a child that  was given that name?  Not a child, but around eight or somewhere in that.  Around eight years old?  Yeah.  One of the small children.  Okay.  And what House was hosting this Feast?  The Giskaast clan.  The Giskaast clan?  Yes.  And there is --  If you can recall?  Hax bagwootxw.  I refer you to the next page:  "Names given at Lottie  Muldoe and Janet Johnson's Feast."  Now was this a  Feast hosted by Lottie Muldoe and Janet Johnson?  Yes.  And it was -- do you recall whether it was a Burial  Feast or Headstone Feast?  I can't say because I was puzzled when I wrote this  out, so that's why it wasn't put down there.  But it  may be the Headstone Feast.  Okay.  You can't recall whether it was the burial?  No.  Because no one -- it wasn't a Burial Feast.  Okay.  Now were these names at that, Neil Johnson and  Adelle Johnson, were they given at that feast?  Yes.  And Sampson Muldoe and Earl Muldoe?  Well, I don't -- Sampson Muldoe, he has had that name  for quite a number of years. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  601  All right.  But the first two names were given at the  Feast?  Yes.  And were those two young people?  Yes.  Okay.  I just wish to refer you briefly to the  genealogy at tab 2.  You were asked by Mr. Plant if  Matthew -- if Alice Marshall's son had a Gitksan name,  and you indicated that he did not.  Can you tell the  court why Matthew Marshall, your great-grandson,  Alice's son, does not have a Gitksan name?  It may not  be referred to on the genealogy, I'm sorry, it may be  one that was added.  But you know who I'm referring  to, it's Alice's -- your daughter Wilma's daughter  Alice's son, Matthew?  Yeah.  Can you tell the court why he does not have a Gitksan  name right now?  The mother lives in Richmond.  Um-hmm?  Most of the time.  Um-hmm?  And this Matthew was just born in August of '86.  Um-hmm.  Has he attended any Feasts?  No.  Okay.  Can you give names to your children or  grandchildren if they are not present at the Feast?  No.  They got to be -- they got to be put forward to  the -- to the chiefs, and they got to be present  there, whoever is going to have a name.  You can't  just take a person that lives somewhere else and you  say, "This is going to be their name put on them."  That's not the case in Gitksan way.  You got to be  there, because you have to have money to contribute to  get that name, so you have to be there.  Exhibit 12, please.  Referring to Exhibit 12, I would  like you to refer to the third page from the end, the  one with Simon Muldoe's name on the top.  I guess  that's the fourth page from the end, My Lord.  Now,  you indicated when examined by Mr. Plant, that Simon  Muldoe is deceased, and he held the name Ax goot; is  that right?  Yes.  Do you know who holds that name today?  Yes.  Who is that?  Jasper Jack. 602  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  10  11  12  MR.  GRANT  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  THE  COURT  26  A  27  MR.  GRANT  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  MR.  GRANT  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  THE  REGIS  44  THE  COURT  45  46  MR.  GRANT  Where was Gyetm Galdoo's pole  hill on the same street as the  47  Now on that page, Jasper Jack is referred to as having  two names, and then there is this Ax goot.  So is it  correct that this list, this Exhibit 12, would include  some person's who are now deceased as well as people  who are alive, and the names they held?  Do you  understand me?  No.  You repeat that again?  :  Well that's obvious is it not, Mr. Grant?  It's got  Mr. Simon Muldoe in here and he is deceased, it's  pretty obvious some of these are deceased and some of  them are not.  In cross-examination -- I won't refer you to that  further, you don't have to read more.  In cross-examination by Mr. Plant, you told him  that Gyetm Galdoo's totem-pole was moved close to the  museum in Hazelton.  before that move?  It's -- there is a  Anglican church.  Yes?  And it's on the end of that street on the hill where  that pole was.  Okay.  :  That's before it was moved?  Yes, before it was moved.  Okay.  I wish to show you a photograph of a scene and  ask if you can identify Gyetm Galdoo's pole in the  scene.  I provided a copy of this.  It's this first one here, right on the crest of the  hill.  Okay.  Okay, did you see that pole -- is that the same  pole that was moved, that you referred to as moved to  the museum?  Yes.  And did you see that pole in that location?  Yes, I did.  Okay.  I would like that --  Yes, all right.  -- like that marked as the next exhibit.  That will be number?  RAR:  Fifteen.  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT NO. 15 - PHOTOGRAPH)  I wish to refer you to exhibit number one in the  commission evidence of Jessie Sterritt dated December 603  1  2  MR.  PLANT  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  7  8  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  12  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  THE  COURT  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  THE  COURT  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  THE  COURT  46  47  MR.  GRANT  10th, 1985.  Before he does that, My Lord, I'm at a loss as to  know how this arises out of my cross-examination of  Mrs. McKenzie.  Well I'm -- I don't know either, but I haven't heard  anything more than just the suggestion of looking at  these photographs.  Does it arise out of the  cross-examination, Mr. Grant?  Yes.  It goes to -- it goes to -- the reasons for  the move of the pole, and I think it will become  apparent when the court has an opportunity to look at  the photograph.  To the move of the pole to --  Of Gyetm Galdoo  -- to Ksan?  To the museum.  Yes.  That was something that wasn't canvassed on direct.  Yes, that came up in cross-examination.  If it  relates to that it's proper re-examination.  I would like to show you this photograph which is  Exhibit 1 in the commission evidence of Jessie  Sterritt.  Do you recognize in that photograph the  pole of Gyetm Galdoo?  Yes.  This is the pole of Gyetm Galdoo here.  Can you just --  :  Before the move or after the move?  Is this before the move?  This is before the move.  Okay.  Can you point to the court which one it is in  the photograph?  This one here, the first one.  :  The first one on the right, the one on the right?  :  Yes.  The one on the farthest -- there is four  poles, the one farthest to the right.  :  Yes.  :  I would ask that be then entered as the next  exhibit.  :  Well, does it really matter what these poles look  like, Mr. Grant?  :  Well I'm going to come to the point now with these  exhibits.  :  Yes, all right.  That will be Exhibit 16.  (EXHIBIT NO. 16 - PHOTOGRAPH) 604  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  THE  COURT  9  A  10  11  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  24  25  THE  COURT  26  A  27  THE  COURT  28  A  29  THE  COURT  30  A  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Why was the pole moved, Gyetm Galdoo's pole moved?  On the last photograph you showed me there is -- there  is a flat place where these houses are, they are part  of the --  Show it so the court can see.  Point it this way.  Oh, this way here.  We've had floods, and then the  ground keeps disappearing every time there is a flood.  :  Yes?  So after all this is gone down the river, the portion  of land that's left there is still falling down, and  they were afraid that this pole will fall and it will  be damaged or gone down the river.  :  And that's the portion of the hill where you see the  four poles.  :  Yes.  :  I ask the court, they may wish to examine the  photos.  :  That's another photograph, is it, or is that 16?  :  There is two photographs, Exhibits 15 and 16, and I  ask the court to look at those.  :  Yes.  :  And for the record, on Exhibit 15 she pointed again  to the pole farthest to the right as Gyetm Galdoo's  pole.  :  And this is where?  Gitanmaax.  :  This is Gitanmaax?  Yes.  :  That's the Skeena River in the background?  Yes.  :  All right.  And is that the hill above where the Anglican church  is now located?  Yes.  When Gyetm Galdoo moved his pole, did he lose his  power as a chief?  No.  Why not?  Because he came to the head chiefs when he knew he was  going to lose this pole at any time, and so he got the  head chiefs of Gitanmaax, there were a few from  Kispiox, and they discussed it with the chief.  And he  told them that he didn't want to lose this totem-pole,  so that he asked the chief if they would give him the  permission, even though he is the head chief of the  Lax See'l clan in Gitanmaax, but still he has to have 605  1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  2 6 THE  COURT  27  2 8 MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  the permission from all the chiefs of different clans  to move this.  And what could be done, a Feasting will  be given, and it has to be when a pole is moved, just  in that short distance, so that the family will still  have this totem-pole.  And is that what happened in that case?  And that's what happened.  They -- the chiefs agreed  with him that any time this pole would be lost or  damaged, if it fell towards the river, specially.  You said in cross-examination by Mr. Plant that, "The  law relating to marriage is a law made for the Gitksan  people, not only for one House.  And that it is every  House that has that law and we have to abide by it."  Are the laws relating to adoption, laws made for all  of the Gitksan people, not only for one House?  To all Gitksan people?  Are the laws relating to the use of Gitksan  territories, laws which are for all the Gitksan people  and not only one House?  Would you rephrase that again, please?  Are the laws relating to the use of Gitksan  territories, laws which are for all the Gitksan people  and not only the laws of one House?  To the Houses first is the law that they own the  territories.  :  I don't think the witness understood your question,  Mr. Grant.  All right.  Okay, let me repeat it, okay.  You said in  cross-examination that the law relating to marriage is  a law made for the Gitksan people not only for one  House, and that it is every House that has that law  and you have to abide by it.  You mean --  Okay, that's what you said in cross-examination?  Yes.  I -- when I was asked that --  Just -- I haven't asked you yet.  Okay.  Okay.  Are the laws relating to the use of Gitksan  territories, laws made for the Gitksan people, not  only for one House?  And is it that every House has  that law?  Yes.  Are the Feast laws, laws made for all the Gitksan  people?  Yes.  Are the laws relating to settlement of disputes, like 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  606  you talked about the Miluulak situation, are those  laws made for all the Gitksan people?  Yes.  Are the laws relating to the movement of totem-poles,  laws made for all the Gitksan people?  Yes.  You have said that Luus and Anhloo'o had described  territory in a Feast in cross-examination.  At any  feast put up by Luus in your lifetime, have there been  berries or beaver meat distributed at the feast?  Yes.  Did they come from Luus' territory?  The berry patch, yes.  On Mr. Macaulay's cross-examination, you told him that  William Wale talked to you about the territory, I  believe, and he had that sketch map?  Yes.  Did he talk to you about Djogaslee's territory or  Gyolugyet's territory?  He talked about Djogaslee's.  You gave evidence that the fish -- that the last time  you had been fishing was in 1946.  Were you referring  to the last time you were fishing at the coast?  Yes.  Do you still use fish caught from the Skeena River?  Yes.  And is that provided by other people in your House or  wil'nat'ahl?  Provided by other people from different Houses.  Okay.  Mr. Macaulay before lunch got into a --  questioning you regarding adoption or regarding  marriage between a Gitksan and a non-Gitksan, and a  half-Gitksan and a quarter-Gitksan.  You referred, to  clarify it, to your own great-grandson in the end  there, great-grandchild, right?  Um-hmm.  And when you are referring to that great-grandchild,  is that Alice's child, Matthew?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, does it make a difference if there is a  marriage between a Gitksan and a non-Gitksan?  If the  woman is Gitksan, are the children Gitksan?  Yes.  If the man is Gitksan and marries a non-Indian woman,  are the children Gitksan?  Repeat that again?  If the man is Gitksan -- 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  607  Yes.  -- and the woman is non-Gitksan, are the children  automatically Gitksan or not?  Let me be specific.  You used an example this morning, you said, "If my  son," who is Gitksan, right?  Yes.  "Married a non-Indian" --  Um-hmm.  "-- and they have children," would those children be  Gitksan or non-Gitksan?  They won't be Gitksan, but then if the wife is adopted  by another clan --  Yes?  -- then those children would be Gitksan.  Now, would they belong to the clan and the House to  which the wife is adopted into?  Yes.  Now, can you think of an example where a Gitksan man  has married a non-Gitksan woman, and that woman has  been adopted and her children are now members of a  Gitksan House and clan?  Yes, I have.  Could you describe the example to the court?  With Neil John junior.  That's Neil John Sterritt?  Yes.  Okay.  Was married to a white lady.  Um-hmm.  And she is -- she was adopted in the Lax Gibuu clan.  Now they have children, and it's up to the House of  this -- the mother is adopted into.  Some Houses would  accept that, the children would become the Lax Gibuu  because she is adopted by the Lax Gibuu.  And some  families, some House would not prefer it that way.  This is dependent on the head chiefs, they decide, the  head of a House decides this.  Okay.  Now in the example, was Neil John Sterritt's  children, did they come -- are they now considered  Gitksan?  Did they -- were they adopted into a House?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, Mr. Macaulay asked you about adoption of  non-Indians into Gitksan Houses, and he said this  is -- he asked you if this was new, because  presumably -- because non-Indians are relatively new  in Gitksan perspective.  Was there adoptions by the  Gitksan of non-Gitksan people before the Europeans 60S  1  2  A  3  THE  COURT  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  MR.  GRANT  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  THE  COURT  40  41  A  42  THE  COURT  43  A  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  Q  47  came?  No.  : Well Mrs. McKenzie, I thought last week you told me  of an example where a House had run out of female  members, and to ensure the continuation of the House,  a female was adopted into the House. Is that not so?  That -- you are speaking of the Gitksan law. But  since non-Indians have come in to be adopted, this is  a different thing.  :  Yes.  I'm not sure she understood your question  then, Mr. Grant.  Right.  Before the non-Indians came, was there  adoption among the Gitksan?  Yes.  Now the court's just referred you back to a  description you gave of a House that was -- had no  female members and you described that?  Yeah, that's right.  Did that occur before the non-Indians came?  Yes.  That occurred before the non-Indians came.  Before the Gitksan came -- or -- it may be close to a  time for a break, My Lord.  Before the non-Indians  came, was there situations where a Gitksan may marry,  for example, a Nishga or Tsitsawit or some other  non-Gitksan?  Would you repeat that again, please?  Before the non-Gitksan came --  Non-Gitksan?  Non -- before the non-Indians came, the Europeans  came, okay?  Yeah.  Talking about that time.  Were there occasions on  which the Gitksan married Indian people who were not  Gitksan, such as Wet'suwet'en or Nishga?  Do you  understand?  Repeat again?  Okay.  Maybe the —  :  Did Gitksans -- Miss McKenzie, did Gitksans ever  marry non-Gitksans?  Yes.  :  All right.  Okay.  :  Start from there.  Okay.  So before the non-Indians came, Gitksans  married non-Gitksans, they married Wet'suwet'en or 609  clan?  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  MR. GRANT  10  THE COURT  11  MR. GRANT  12  THE COURT  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  EXAMINATI  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  they married Nishga?  Yes.  Before the non-Indians came, did -- were there  occasions on which a Gitksan would adopt the -- the  non-Gitksan wife or husband of a Gitksan person?  Yes, they would adopt.  Okay.  And this occurred before the Europeans came?  Yes.  Those are all my questions on redirect, My Lord.  Thank you.  Thank you very much, Miss McKenzie.  Miss McKenzie, I have a few questions.  I don't like  to ask questions because it may indicate falsely that  what I'm about to ask is something that I consider  important.  And I don't know whether it's important or  not, but legal truths sometimes can only be found in  the details, and I -- there are a few things I would  just like to clear up.  Do I understand that only a House has an adaawk, an  individual does not have an adaawk, a clan doesn't  have an adaawk, and a people such as Gitksan do not  have an adaawk; is that correct?  Each House is a Gitksan and each House has to have an  adaawk.  Yes.  But can anyone but a House have an adaawk?  They -- they could be said in our language  antimahlasxw.  What does that mean?  It's just a story outside of a House.  Yes.  But only Houses have adaawks?  Yes.  Thank you.  Does -- does a child always belong to the  same House and the same clan as his mother?  Always.  Do I understand from that, then, that all the members  of a House belong -- always belong to the same  Yes.  Does a person, an individual like yourself, you belong  to the House of Gyolugyet?  Yes.  Do you belong to a clan or does only a House belong to  a clan?  Individual, they belong to a clan, each.  So —  Each person. 610  1 Q   So you belong to both a House and a clan?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   You told me a long time ago about what's been called a  4 wil'nat'ahl, and is that what you called the people of  5 your father's House?  6 A  What was the first answer -- question?  7 Q   Well, who are the -- what do you call the people of  8 your father's House?  9 A  Wilxsi bakw.  10 THE COURT:  And how do you spell that please, Madam Translator?  11 THE INTERPRETER:  I spelt it differently from the person that  12 was here last week.  13 THE COURT:  Well I have it W-I-L-X-S-I-W-I-L-X-W.  Is that the  14 way you spell it?  15 THE INTERPRETER:  No.  16 THE COURT:  How do you spell it?  17 A   I spell it W-I-L-X-S-I —  18 THE COURT:  Just a minute.  W-I-L-X-S-I.  19 THE INTERPRETER:  B-A-G-X-W-S.  20 THE COURT:  X-W-S?  21 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  22 THE COURT:  23 Q   All right.  Now, does every Gitksan have a wilxsi  24 bakw, or just chiefs?  25 A   No.  Every -- every individual.  26 Q   All right.  Now, apart from the wilxsi bakw you told  27 me about a minute ago, you also told me about a group  28 that was described to me as "Those responsible for me  29 from the House of my father," such as persons who have  30 to be with you at Feasts, things like that.  Is that  31 different from the wilxsi bakw?  32 A   No, they are the same.  We have two words for that  33 wilxsi bakw and wilxsi laks.  34 THE COURT:  Because I have this spelt  35 W-I-L-X-S-I-D-A-G-W-U-N-S-X-W, and I don't think I've  36 ever heard the word the witness just used a moment  37 ago.  Others suggest I have, but it's -- by nodding  38 their head, but that doesn't matter.  Is that the way  39 you have it spelt, Madam Translator?  40 THE INTERPRETER:  No.  That was the same one, only the "D" is  41 supposed to be a "B".  42 THE COURT:  43 Q   Supposed to be a B?  All right, all right.  44 All right, now I take it that every Gitksan person  45 has this group, that is from his father's House and  46 who is responsible for him?  47 A   Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  611  All right.  Next, are all the members of a House  related to each other by blood?  In each House there is a -- there are married couples  in a House.  But they have different -- they belong to different  Houses?  Yes.  The father's side.  Yes.  What I'm trying to find out is whether all the  members of a House are also members of a blood-related  family, or can there be members of the same House who  are not related by blood?  Not related by blood is in each House.  You don't have to be related by blood to be in the  same House?  No.  You can be but you don't have to be?  Yes, you can be.  Is there any significant difference between your  people's understanding of marriage and the European  understanding of marriage?  Is it the same thing?  It's different.  In what way is it different?  Because in a marriage of a Gitksan before -- now I'm  talking about -- say about 52 years ago, our spouse  have to be selected by the chiefs of the House.  Yes, yes.  I wasn't talking about the selection  process, if I can call it that, or deciding who  marries who.  I'm just saying, or asking, once a  decision is made to marry, does it have the same  signification both to the Europeans and to the  Gitksans, one man, one woman, for life?  Yes.  But there was divorce?  There was divorce, yes.  All right.  What about children born of persons not  married, what happens to them insofar as belonging to  a House or clan is concerned?  They -- the children still belong to the House of the  mother.  But no wilxsi bakws?  If ladies are married and have children, then there is  supposed to be wilsxi baksw somewhere.  Well, that's probably accurate.  But is there a wilxsi  bakws recognized for that child somewhere?  Yes.  Is it the natural father or does someone else assume  that role? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  612  The natural father.  If he is known?  If he is known, yes.  And if unknown?  No -- well in Gitksan way, every father has to be  known.  All right.  Let me change it to something else.  Does  every -- does every death of a Gitksan call for  Feast or just the death of a chief?  It calls for all deaths.  In your experience, is there always a Feast when a  Gitksan person dies?  Yes.  Is a Feast hosted by a clan or a House or both?  A clan.  Only by a clan?  Well, the clan of the mother of the person that's  deceased.  Well the clan of the mother is the same as the clan of  the deceased?  Yes.  Can only a clan put on a Feast?  The clan that the deceased is in are the people that  would host or put on a Feasting, and the other two  clans will be their guests.  A House doesn't put on a Feast by itself, just a clan?  Well it has to -- no.  A House has to put on a Feast,  because all the people of that House -- take like a  Gyolugyet's House.  Well I think you've given me two answers, but I think  that was unintentional.  Are you saying now that it is  the -- only a House that can put on a Feast, that can  host a Feast, or is it a clan?  It's -- well, the clan of the people in one House are  the people that put -- will put on the Feast.  You see  I'm the Gyolugyet's House, and my clan is the Lax  Gibuu, so the Lax Gibuu clan will put on that Feast.  The whole clan?  Yes.  Of the Lax Gibuu.  Well, let's not think about the unthinkable, but let's  assume for a moment, just a brief moment, that when  you die, Mrs. McKenzie, who will put on your burial  Feast, your House or your clan?  My House first and the clan.  They always go together.  All right, thank you.  Let me ask you about the Nax  Nok.  Who has Nax Nok, a House, a clan or an  individual? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  613  A House.  Only a House?  The House and the head chiefs that are within the  House.  Yes.  But the Nax Nok is performed, if I can use that  word, by a chief?  Yes.  Only a chief?  Yes.  And the Nax Nok the chief performs is the Nax Nok of  the House?  Yes.  Thank you.  Mrs. McKenzie, when did you last repeat  the adaawk of the House of Gyolugyet at a Feast?  When my mother died in 1963.  When did you last perform the Nax Nok of the Gyolugyet  House?  When there are Feastings of Lax See'l and the Giskaast  clan.  And when was that?  At home, raising of Gitsegukla of last fall.  Did the House of Gyolugyet raise a pole at that time?  No.  It was some other pole was being raised?  Just the clan.  When did the House of Gyolugyet last raise a  totem-pole?  In 1949.  And whereabouts?  At Kispiox.  And it's still there, is it?  Yes.  All right.  Mrs. McKenzie, in your understanding, is  the village of Old Kuldo within the territory of  Gyolugyet or outside the territory of Gyolugyet?  The village of Kuldo and then three miles from Kuldo  is the starting of my territory.  So the village of Old Kuldo is three miles outside  your territory?  Yes.  Is it your understanding there is a remains of a  village at this location called Old Kuldo?  Would you rephrase that?  Is it your understanding that there are remains of a  village, or the signs of a village at Kuldo?  I was told that there were signs of houses that were  rotted down. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  614  All right.  When, in your understanding, did your  family, that is -- I'm sorry, your House of Gyolugyet,  leave Kuldo and go to Kispiox?  Before the white man  arrived?  Yes.  Did you tell me that the original village of your  House was Gitangasx?  Yes.  And was it within your territory?  No.  Where is Gitangasx?  It's up north near Bear Lake.  But not in your territory?  No.  At a Feast, is only the adaawk of the host clan given,  or can -- I'm sorry, at a Feast is only the adaawk of  the host House given?  Yes.  A House or a clan being hosted wouldn't give their  adaawk at such a Feast?  At a Feasting of a House, the adaawk would be told.  The adaawk of the host?  The family, yes.  Of the host?  Yes.  And that's the only adaawk that would be given at a  Feast?  Yes.  So only one adaawk could be given at a Feast?  Yes.  How about Nax Nok, one or more at a Feast?  Several Nax Nok will be used in different Feastings.  Mrs. McKenzie, what is the Eagle Clan?  Is it -- is it  part of the Gitksan people?  Yes.  The ones that are in Kitwanga, they are Gitksan.  And is the Eagle Clan divided into Houses?  Well, it's just like any other clan like the Wolf, the  Frog and the Giskaast,  And do persons intermarry between Eagle and Fireweed  and Wolf?  Yes.  Are the members of the Eagle Clan generally friendly  with the other clans?  We are always friendly.  Every one, I suppose?  Yeah, every one.  Is the Eagle Clan all or generally located on the 615  1  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  THE  COURT  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  27  28  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  40  41  42  A  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  MACAU  47  THE  COURT  other side of the Skeena River, from the three clans  that we've been talking about?  Well, the Eagle Clan that I do know, live -- some of  them live in Kitwancool village, and Kitwanga village  and Gitsegukla village.  Do any members of the Eagle Clan live at Kispiox or  Hazelton?  No.  They don't?  No.  Is there any reason I should know about why they are  not in this lawsuit?  :  My Lord, I -- the Eagle Clan is represented in this  lawsuit.  Oh, is it?  Yes.  I'll hear about that, then, so I won't pursue the  matter.  I'll discuss that later.  All right.  Those are all the questions I have.  Thank you, Miss McKenzie.  I hesitate to do it, but I think I must give  counsel an opportunity to ask questions arising out of  mine if they wish.  I rather not, but I think I must.  There is one point that I think I don't have to ask  the witness because she gave this evidence earlier,  but it was brought to my attention at the time you  asked it, and that was the use of the terminology  wilxsi witxw and wilxsi bakw.  Yes.  It's my understanding, and as I indicated the  witness has given this evidence several days ago,  probably beyond most of our memories, that wilxsi  witxw is singular and wilxsi bakw is plural.  They  both refer to the father's side, but it can be wilxsi  witxw or wilxsi bakw, and that may alleviate one of  the —  Which one is plural?  Wilxsi witxw is singular -- just one moment.  Wilxsi  witxw is singular and wilxsi bakw and wilxsi laks,  those two terms, the second two are both plural; is  that correct?  Yes, that's right.  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Grant.  Mr. Plant?  I have no questions.  Thank you.  Mr. Macaulay?  AY:  No questions.  All right.  Thank you, Mrs. McKenzie, you are 616  1 excused.  We'll take the afternoon adjournment now.  2 (WITNESS EXCUSED)  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 2:40 p.m.)  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings herein transcribed to the  9 best of my skill and ability.  10  11  12  13  14  15 Toni Kerekes,  16 O.R., R.P.R.  17 United Reporting Service Ltd.  18  19 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON RECESS)  20  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  22 THE COURT:   Mr. Grant?  23 MR. GRANT: My Lord, I'm prepared to call the next witness, Chief  24 Antgulilbix.  This is Mary Johnson, and Mrs. Alice  25 Sampson will be sitting with her as an interpreter.  2 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  27 MR. GOLDIE: As an interpreter or a translator?  28 MR. GRANT: As a — to translate from Gitksan to English and from  29 English to Gitksan.  30 MR. GOLDIE: Will the procedure differ from the previous witness?  31 Will Mrs. Johnson be giving her evidence in English?  32 MR. PLANT:  The majority of Mrs. Johnson's evidence will be in  33 English. It will only be to assist her.  34 MR. GOLDIE: I wish to make a submission if there's any extended  35 interpretation, My Lord.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  Swear the witness first.  37  38 MARY JOHNSON, a witness called on  39 behalf of the plaintiffs, after first  40 being duly sworn, testified as  41 follows:  42  43 THE REGISTRAR:  Please state your full name and spell your last  44 name for the record?  45 THE WITNESS:   My name is Mary Johnson and the initial is E. and  46 M-a-r-y, J-o-h-n-s-o-s.  47 MR. GRANT: S-o-n. 617  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  All right.  Thank you.  Sit down  2 if you wish, please.  Swear the translator, please?  3  4 ALICE SAMPSON, Interpreter, Sworn:  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Please state your full name and spell your last  7 name for the court?  8 THE INTERPRETER:   Alice Anne Sampson.  S-a-m-p-s-o-n.  9  10 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT:  Mrs. Johnson, you were born in Kispiox?  Yes.  And you were born on August 4th, 1909?  Yes.  And you're a member of the Giskaast Clan?  Yes.  And you're a chief of a House?  Yes.  And you're one of the plaintiffs in this action?  Yes.  And can you tell the court the name of your -- your  chief's name and the name of the House of which you're  a chief?  Antgulilbix.  :   Number one on the list, My Lord.  That's just to  assist the court's spelling.  :  Yes.  Thank you.  Is there more than one Xgoogam Simoogit in your House?  Yes.  Can you tell the court who else is a Xgoogam Simoogit  in your House?  Tsibasaa.  Sixty-six, My Lord, page 4.  And are you a Xgoogam Simoogit in your House?  Yes.  Now, Mrs. Johnson, before I go any further, I'd like  to ask you if you -- Mrs. McKenzie when she was asked  questions on cross-examination explained that it was  hard to explain to a non-Gitksan the relationship --  your relationship to the land or the relationship of a  Gitksan to the land.  Can you explain to the court the  importance of the territory and the land to you as a  Gitksan chief?  Yes.  And to the other Gitksan?  Yes.  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  2 5 MR.  GRANT  26  27 THE  COURT  2 8 MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A 618  1 Q   Go ahead?  2 A   Our ancestors were deep-rooted on the territory, the  3 hunting ground, and they say that's where they use  4 diapers for -- moss as a diaper and that's what they  5 call wil doxhl wi umhl, so it's very important to our  6 Gitksan people.  7 Q   Is there a translation for the word Madam --  8 A   That's where -- I mean where they use -- in the  9 ancient time they use moss for diapers and that's  10 where they dispose the moss on the hunting ground, and  11 it's very important to our people.  That's what they  12 call hlogol doxhl wi umhl.  That's where the diapers  13 are when -- when she was small or when he was small.  14 And they were deep-rooted on the territory, our  15 ancestors are.  That's the reason why whenever I  16 travel with the Ksan group as -- performing in some  17 other cities, I felt sad when I -- whenever I sang the  18 dirge song because I know how important it is and how  19 valuable the hunting ground to -- to my ancestors, and  20 that's -- this is what they call luu fip hetxwihl aks  21 good'y, that means there were tears, tears in your  22 heart.  23 Q   Are you finished with your answer?  From the time you  24 were born until you were six or seven, where did you  25 stay when you were a child?  26 A   In the village of Kispiox.  27 Q   Did you go to any particular place for the summer  2 8 months?  2 9       A   Oh, I remember my grandmother lives at her husband's  30 fishing ground, that's Gwin o'op across the Kispiox  31 village.  That's -- the fishing site belongs to my  32 grandmother's husband.  His chief name is Hawaaw.  33 MR. GRANT:   Just one moment, My Lord.  My Lord, I was just  34 reviewing -- there was a list prepared which would  35 have these major names.  3 6 THE COURT:  Number 30?  37 MR. GRANT:  Well, yes.  Hawaaw is number 30, but I was looking  38 for the spelling of Gwin o'op.  Madam Interpreter, go  39 ahead?  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  Gwin o'op, G-w-i-n, and leave a space  o-'-o-p  41 THE COURT:  O-p?  42 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  43 THE COURT:  And what does that word mean?  4 4 MR. GRANT:  45 Q   This was the name of the fishing site where your  46 grandmother stayed; is that right?  47 A   Yes. 619  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  24  25  THE  COURT  26  27  MR.  GRANT  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  Can you explain what Gwin o'op means?  They didn't tell me and I didn't ask, they just called  it Gwin o'op. It still the name today known among the  Indian people.  And this was across the Kispiox or Skeena River?  Yes, where the junction of Kispiox and Skeena.  That's  where the fishing site stands.  :  At the junction is there a Kispiox River or stream?  Yes, there's a Kispiox River -- just to -- so the  court understands, the Kispiox village is located at a  junction between the Skeena River and the Kispiox  River; is that correct?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, when did you stop going to go Gwin o'op as a  child?  I was very small that time and I -- I just remember  when Hawaaw died and I forget about things after, but  I remember my mother and dad moved to Kaaxhl an  Saalda, that's our own fishing site.  : There's a list that -- this is another geographic  site.  There is a list that is being provided and I  should have it for you tomorrow, but if you wish the  spelling --  :  Well, she said it so we should have it in English I  think.  What does Kaaxhl an Saalda mean?  It means if you go there you will see the stones, some  are about this big, some are very big, but they were  thin -- they were thin and they were smooth, and  that's what they call -- they use ancient word for it,  they call this -- these stones saalda'm lo'op.  And does that mean the rocks -- the stones are very  thin?  Yes, yes, they were thin.  And so what does the name of the fishing site mean,  and I think it's an Saalda?  Yes.  Kaaxhl an Salda?  That means that there's a  little round mountain, you could see it from our  village, and there's a look-out on the top of it and  that little mountain is -- that's where -- on the side  of this little mountain where the trail goes around,  that's where they -- what they call Kaaxhl an Saalda,  and that's why they called the fishing site Kaaxhl an  Saalda.  Now, you went to this fishing site during your mother 620  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  and your grandmother's time?  Yeah, my grandmother was still alive at that time.  Okay.  And when did you stop going to Kaaxhl an  Saalda?  About -- about more than 20 years ago.  Was that at a particular time?  Had somebody died or  something?  Yeah, after -- after my mother died --  Okay.  -- we didn't go there.  Now, you were married in June 1925?  Yes.  And you married Peter Angus at that time?  Yes.  And you were married to him until June 1950?  Yes.  And this is when he died?  Yes.  And later you married Wallace Johnson --  Yeah.  -- in 1950?  You were married to him from 1950 until  1974?  Yeah.  And you had a Divorce Feast in 1977?  Yes.  Now, you've told the court that your Gitksan name is  Antgulilbix.  Can you explain what that name means?  It means water cooled in the ocean.  Can you tell the court the history of why that name  Antgulilbix is in your House?  Yes.  And before you tell it, I understand it's quite a long  history, but early on in the history it comes to the  point of Antgulilbix, so maybe you could just tell to  that point where it comes to your name?  Yeah.  Go ahead?  Yeah, there was -- some teenagers were always playing  on a great big log, a cottonwood tree at the end of a  village, and they always liked to play there, and --  and when grandmother -- the great-great-grandmother  told the story, she said umxwihl ganhl wil dit.  That  means that great big log doesn't like what the  teenagers did.  So before they knew it they were  drifting.  One time a whole bunch of young people were  on the log, and they were drifting away.  They can't  do anything.  Some -- some were starved to death and 621  1 they just dumped them into the water, and you folks  2 know how -- how the seagulls are whenever they see a  3 log drift they always sat on it, the seagulls, and  4 they managed to kill these seagulls and they -- they  5 sliced the meat and lay them on the log and the sun  6 cooked the bird, the seagull meat, and that's how they  7 survived.  Just a few of them survived.  8 And while they were drifting they heard a terrible  9 noise and the noise is not far from -- from the shore  10 and -- and the great big tree is drifting along, and  11 they knew they were coming closer to this great big  12 noise and so they managed to jump off and swam to  13 shore and they stood and see this whirlpool swallow up  14 this great big tree.  So they had nothing to do.  They  15 just wander around at the edge of the water until they  16 find a -- where someone is cutting some wood long time  17 ago and there were moss on it, looks like somebody  18 lives there for a long time.  19 As they wander around they find some fresh -- where  20 someone cut some fresh tree for some wood and then  21 they found a little hut where a man sits facing the  22 other way and without seeing them this man says "Come  23 in if you guys are the ones that the tree drift away,  24 far away." he said.  So they understand he's a  25 supernatural man without looking at them and he tells  2 6 them what happened.  And they did come in.  He give  27 them something to eat and they stay with him.  And  28 they seen he wore great big ear-rings where they were  29 very long, they said, and his name is 'wiitax max  30 meexw.  That means -- that means he got great big  31 ear-rings.  32 MR. GRANT:   Just before you go on, maybe the interpreter could  33 just spell that word for the court?  34 THE TRANSLATOR:  Could I get her to repeat the last one she  35 said?  3 6 MR. GRANT:  37 Q   What was the name again?  38 A   'wiitax max meexw.  That's a Tsimsian word.  If we say  39 it in our language we would say it 'wiitax max meexw,  40 but it's Tsimsan, that's why it's different.  41 THE TRANSLATOR: '-w-i-i-t-a-x, underlined, leave a space, m-a-x,  42 underlined, space, m-i-x-w(sic).  4 3 MR. GRANT:  44 Q   Go ahead, Mrs. Johnson.  45 A  And these teenagers stayed with him, they like him,  46 and he told them they'll be fishing tomorrow.  And  47 everytime he go out and catch some spring salmon, he 622  1 said to them, a guy with one foot always come along  2 and grab all the fish and he got nothing.  "So you  3 guys will hide yourself tomorrow," he said, "then I'll  4 go fishing.  If he comes, then I'll holler at you  5 if -- whenever he grabs the fish.  I'll just say, gala  6 sim kuuba xwdaakintxw'y."  That means come along my  7 grandchildren.  It means he need help.  8 So they did go out the next day then.  Then they  9 heard something like -- they had heard a noise because  10 he got only one foot, and he come along and he did  11 grab the spring salmon like he always does, and  12 then -- then 'wiitax max meexw cried out, like I said,  13 and his grandchildren came and help him took back the  14 spring salmon, and they beat him up.  So after that  15 they live happily.  16 Q   And the name that you have, Antgulilbix, comes from  17 the whirlpool that took the tree down?  18 A   Yes.  Yes.  19 Q   Sorry, did I interrupt you?  20 A   There's one more about 'wiitax max meexw.  They said  21 he just stoop his ear-rings into the water where the  22 beavers are and he catch as many beavers.  So that's  23 how he caught some beavers because he's lax nok, like  24 what we call -- the white people call supernatural  25 spirit.  26 And one night -- the teenagers doesn't remember how  27 long they were with him, and one night they remember  28 their village and they were lonesome to go back home  2 9 and the same minute 'wiitax max meexw knows their  30 thought, and he said to them "Tomorrow you guys will  31 go home."  he said -- he told them, and he did, he  32 make them each -- each teenagers their pack of fish  33 and beaver meat, dried fish and dried beaver meat and  34 he showed them the way to go and not to come back and  35 to find him anymore.  "Just don't come back." he said.  36 And they did went, but it didn't take them far when  37 they get to the village, but not long after that one  38 of the teenagers went back alone to try to find  39 'wiitax max meexw, but he never found him and he  40 never -- he got lost in the wood.  He disobey what the  41 'wiitax max meexw told him to do, so that's the end of  42 the history of Antgulilbix.  43 Q   By that you mean that's the end of the history about  44 your name?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Is that -- what you've just told the court, who told  47 you about that and taught you that? 623  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  12  MR.  GOLDI  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  43  44  MR.  GOLDI  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GOLDI  My great-great-grandmother and grandmother too.  Okay.  And what was your great-great-grandmother's  name?  Anhalagyax.  Her chief name is Anhalagyax.  And did these events occur at the coast?  Yes.  You've heard of the place called T'am lax amit?  Yes.  :   Did these events occur before the people were at  T'am lax amit or after the people were at T'am lax  amit?  E: Well, she hasn't said where they were.  Perhaps my  friend could lay the foundation for that?  I'm sorry, yes.  Did these events occur -- did  Antgulilbix and the people of your House live at T' am  lax amit at any time?  Yes.  And did those people leave T'am lax amit?  Yes, they leave.  And did these events that you've just described occur  before they left T'am lax amit or after they left it?  After.  And I'll come back to T'am lax amit later in your  evidence.  Yes.  Who holds the name Tsibasaa?  My brother.  And what's his English name, his Tsimsian name or  Gitksan name?  Stanley Wilson.  When did you take the name Antgulilbix?  In 1982 when Aunt Emily Latz died.  :   This may be an appropriate time for the court to --  I've got a document book for Antgulilbix.  Maybe this  could be marked as the next exhibit for identification  at this point and I have a copy for the court's  convenience.  :  Have your learned friends seen this?  : They have copies of it and they -- except they don't  have in their copies the maps which are in the copy  you have and the genealogies because both of those  were delivered to them under separate cover.  E: We got those on the 22nd of May and we got the book  a few minutes ago.  :  I'm sorry, you got on the 22nd of May what?  E: We got on the 22nd of May the genealogy and the map. 624  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q   And just for your reference, My Lord, Tab 2 which says  4 "Maps of Antgulilbix's territory" really should be  5 "Seating of Antgulilbix."  It's a misstatement there  6 of Tab 2, and in fact seating was there.  7 Now, did you receive a name when you were still a  8 baby?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   What was that name that you received?  11 A   Gwalx luu wan.  12 Q   And what kind of a name is that, is there a Gitksan  13 term for that type of name?  14 A   It means -- that's the name of a new dancer.  It means  15 warn sii halayt. That's the name of a new dancer,  16 warn sii halayt.  17 THE COURT:  The name of a new dance?  18 THE WITNESS:  New dancer.  19 MR. GRANT:  New dancer.  2 0 THE COURT:   The name of a new dancer.  Not a nude dancer?  21 THE INTERPRETER:  New dancer.  That's w-a-'-m, is the one word, s-i-i, h-a-1-a-y-t.  H-a-y?  H-a-1-a-y-t is the third word.  And that's the name the witness had as a child?  No, that's the type of name.  I asked her what the  27 type of name was.  2 8 THE COURT:  Oh, I see.  29 MR. GRANT:  Maybe you can spell the name that she received as a  30 child?  31 THE TRANSLATOR: Gwalx luu wan?  32 MR. GRANT: Yes.  33 THE TRANSLATOR:   G-w-a-1-x, underlined, 1-u-u- w-a-n.  34 THE COURT:  W-a-n?  35 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  3 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q   Now, you've said that it's a new dancer, that's how  39 you referred to it.  What do you mean by a sii halayt,  40 a warn sii halayt?  Let me ask you this:  41 A   That's what they call it.  42 Q   Why would you get a warn sii halayt when you were a  43 baby?  44 A   Yeah, that's the -- that's the Indian custom.  The  45 Gitksan custom is to give the baby the first name and  46 they call it sii halayt.  It's not a great big yukxw.  47 They said it's a Feast just among the village.  They  22 MR. GRANT  2 3 THE COURT  2 4 MR. GRANT  2 5 THE COURT  2 6 MR. GRANT 625  1 got two names at that time.  They called -- my other  2 name is Sagayt 'na lo'ixsxw.  3 Q   And you got these both at the same time?  4 A   Both at the same time.  That means warn 'na muxw.  That  5 means that name for pierced ears.  6 Q   So you received your sii halayt name and your name for  7 your ear-piercing at the same time?  8 A   Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:   Do you want to spell the second name that she  10 received?  11 THE TRANSLATOR:   Sagayt 'na lo'ixsxw.  S-a-g-a-y-t, 'n-a,  12 l-o-'-i-x-s-w-x.  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q   Now, what did your first name Gwalx luu wan mean?  15 A   Oh, it means that the bear cubs stay in their den  16 during wintertime.  The reason is because my dad is --  17 comes from a Wolf tribe and the wolves were there and  18 that's why.  19 Q   Was that name a name in your House -- in the House --  20 a name from the House of Antgulilbix?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Now, your father, what House was he from?  23 A   He comes from the House of Hawaaw and Kliiyem lax haa.  24 Q   Hawaaw is 30 and Kliiyem lax Haa is 35.  The present  25 holder of the name Hawaaw is Alice Wilson?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And the present holder of the name Kliiyem lax haa is  2 8 Martha Brown?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Now, you said that it meant bear cubs are in the den  31 during the wintertime?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And then you -- does your father's -- does the -- your  34 father's from the Wolf Clan or Lax Gibuu?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Do they use a bear crest?  37 A   Yes —  38 Q   Okay.  39 A   -- they use.  40 Q   Now, I'd just like you to explain a little more slowly  41 so the court can understand why you received this name  42 and what relation this name Gwalx luu wan had to your  43 father's House?  44 A  When the wolves call out the name of the child and  45 they mention their crest so that means they put their  46 power on the name, on the new name, and it still is  47 today from -- on every Gitksan people. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  626  If your father was from the Lax See'l or Frog Clan?  Yes.  Would you have received a different baby's name?  Yes.  That's how they are different name and it  connects with the crest of the father.  Okay.  But that different name would have still been  out of the House of Antgulilbix?  Yes.  And from the -- which is a Fireweed House?  Yes.  Now, you said that you received your ear-piercing name  at the same Feast?  Yes.  And this name was Sagayt 'na lo'ixsxw?  Yes.  What does that name mean?  Do you know what the name  Sagayt 'na lo'ixsxw means?  Oh, yes, they all come out dancing together.  It  always talks about dancing.  And is this a name that is in the House of  Antgulilbix?  Yes.  After you received those two names, and before you  received Antgulilbix, did you receive any other name  when you --  Yes.  Okay.  I was 12 years old when great-great-grandmother died,  the one I mentioned before Hawaaw's wife.  Okay.  And at the Feast after her funeral Uncle George  Williams gave me her chief name, grandmother's chief  name, Anhalagyax.  Now, what kind of name, using the Gitksan word, what  kind of a name would that be?  There were -- there were -- she's laughed at and they  make fun of her.  That's what it means?  Yes.  Well, you've told me about your ear-piercing name  being warn 'na muxw?  Yes.  What type of name in Gitksan would this name be?  That's what I told a while ago that they all come out  dancing together.  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry, I miss -- my question wasn't  very clear, Mrs. Johnson.  I'm asking about the type 627  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  MR.  GOLDI  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  COURT  of the name, and I wonder whether there's a word to  cover the kind of name that Anhalagyax was?  What  would you say if you said what kind of a -- the word  for name in Gitksan is warn; right?  Yes.  Okay.  What kind of warn is Anhalagyax?  That's what I -- like I said, they just laugh at her  and make fun of her.  :   Okay.  Possibly the interpreter -- could you repeat  my question to her?  I think she misunderstood.  E: Well, My Lord, perhaps it might be preferable if my  friend lead on this point.  Okay.  I will lead.  Let's try that.  I've reviewed the case and I was going to do that.  Is Anhalagyax a warn simoogit name?  Yes.  Now, is that translated as a chief's name?  Yes.  And is there another kind of name in Gitksan known as  warn gyat?  Yes.  And that would be as a man's name?  Yes.  They call this -- they still call those names  that are not as high as the high chief's name, warn  gyat, even if it's a lady or a man.  Right.  Okay.  Now, did you receive another name from  your sister -- from your grandmother's sister Lucy  Tait?  Yes.  And when about did you receive that?  After I was married.  I was really young and she gave  me the name.  It's just like I was holding it because  the name is a divorced name.  But this is before you were divorced?  Yes.  Was this around the 1930's a few years after you were  married?  I think it's after 19 -- oh, I think it's -- yeah,  after 1930's.  What was the name and what did it mean?  Gwiis logam phlo'on.  It means an old white sea otter  blanket.  I'm sorry, it means?  An old white sea otter blanket.  An old? 62E  1  THE  WITNE  2  THE  COURT  3  4  5  MR.  GRANT  6  THE  COURT  7  8  9  10  MR.  GRANT  11  THE  COURT  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  THE  COURT  16  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  THE  COURT  20  21  22  MR.  GRANT  23  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  28  29  30  MR.  GRANT  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  3S:   White sea otter blanket.  :  Mr. Grant, I'll have to rely on you too that -- to  assure me that this is all going to be important at  the end of the day, is it?  : Yes, I'm just getting --  :  Because it does seem to me that there's no end to  this and I just hope that we're getting evidence  that's going to be useful to decide the legal issues  in this case.  : Yes.  :  It seems to me we're going a long long way afield  and I hope not unnecessarily.  : Well no, I hope that the strands will be all tied  together very neatly at the end.  :  I've heard lawyers make that assurance again and  again.  : I said I hope that's what will happen, I didn't  assure you at this time.  :  But there is a limit, Mr. Grant, that really I can't  allow this to go on much longer in this vein.  Carry  on.  :   And that name -- I take another implication from  what you say, My Lord, and from what Mr. Goldie said,  that I will lead somewhat on this to expedite part of  this evidence?  :  Well, I hope you'll do anything that's necessary to  expedite it.  I mean this is the tenth day and we're  on witness number two and we're hardly started, but  you go ahead.  This name that you received from your grandmother's  sister was the divorced name of Kate Hakst; is that  right?  Yes.  And Kate Hakst is related to you?  Yes, she's my auntie.  And this name was taken by Kate when she divorced her  husband?  Yes.  And this was in earlier times?  Yes.  After receiving that name, were you given a name by  your other grandmother Edith Gawa?  Yes.  And what was that name?  Xsim wil aat.  And was that a warn gyat name? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  Q  47  A  629  Yes.  And that name means Miss Echo?  Yes, or Lady Echo.  After they were married it would  be Lady Echo.  Now, George Williams was your uncle; is that right?  Yes.  And he died around 1943?  Yes.  And when he died Lucy Tait gave you another name; is  that right?  Yes.  And what was that name?  Guxws didalkxw.  That's a chief name.  Okay.  Is it a warn simoogit name?  Yes.  Okay.  And is that a name that had been held by Donald  Mowatt?  Yeah, used to be Donald Mowatt, and this was while  Uncle Donald Mowatt is still alive --  Okay.  -- when I took his name.  And he then held the name --  Yal.  And that's a name in your House?  Yes.  Would it be correct to say that the Guxws didalkxw is  one of the wings of the chief?  Yes.  In your House?  Yes.  And what's the Gitksan term for the wings of the  chief?  Hla ga kaaxhl simoogit.  H-1-g-a-k-a-a-k, and simoighet, s-i-m-o-i-g-h-e-t.  Now, you've referred to the fact that you took a  divorced name in 1977?  Yes.  You put up a Divorce Feast.  At that Feast did you  take on a divorce name?  Yes.  Or actually two.  And what were those two names?  That's when I took Gwiis logam phlo'on.  Like the name we mentioned earlier that I was holding  when I was young, and the other is Hamiyaahl hloxs.  There were two divorced name in our family crest.  And what does the second name Hamiyaahl hloxs mean?  It means the sun is always thankful. 630  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21 MR.  22  23  24 THE  25  26  27  2 8 MR.  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41 THE  42 THE  43 THE  44 THE  45 THE  4 6 MR.  47  Q   Do you still hold that name?  A   No, I already pass it onto one of my cousins' daughter  at our Feast last winter and we had a Feast about  Auntie Emily's stone and Moses Wilson's stone, Chief  Xhlax, so at that time she -- my cousin sort of got a  chance to have her divorce.  Q   And what's her name, your cousin's daughter that took  this?  A   Hamiyaahl hloxs.  I gave her one of the name, divorced  name.  Q   And her English name is Carol Blackwater?  A   Carol Blackwater.  Q   And when you say last winter, was this just this past  January?  A   Yeah, just last -- on January 3rd.  Q   When you took the name Antgulilbix when your Aunt  Emily Latz died, was that at a Feast?  A   Yes.  Q   And that was in Kispiox?  A   Yes.  GRANT:   I'd like to have the next -- that document book  marked as the next exhibit for identification.  That  will be 17.  COURT:  All right.  (EXHIBIT 17: DOCUMENT BOOK)  GRANT:  Q   I'd like to refer you to Tab 2, and at this point in  time I'm not going to ask you to go through it all,  but I'd like you to look at that and tell the court if  that is an accurate depiction of the seating of the  people in your House?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  And this would be the seating at the table of  Antgulilbix?  A   Yes.  Q   And you sit at one end and Tsibasaa sits at the other  end?  A   Yes.  COURT:  Tsibasaa is your -- I'm sorry, your son or your --  WITNESS:   My brother.  COURT:  Your brother?  WITNESS:   Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  Q   Okay.  I'd like to move into another area with you, 631  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Mrs. Johnson, and that is about your education in the  oral history.  Can you tell the court how you were trained in  learning the adaawk and the songs that you know?  A   Yeah, my great-great-grandmother told me because I  always liked to listen to her stories and she told the  adaawks and the stories and she sang the songs and  after she died.  And my grandmother lived a long time,  that's Edith Gawa.  She's the one that told some more  stories and some more adaawks.  As you know folks,  that when a child learns things when she's -- when  they are small, they don't forget.  MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Well, how would you be taught, more  specifically, by your great-grandmother Anhalagyax?  She said great-great-grandmother.  Great-great-grandmother.  What time of day would she  teach you and where would it be?  After she goes to bed at night, then she would tell or  she would tell it during the day whenever she's  resting.  And how old were you when she'd started to teach you  the adaawk?  About seven.  And is there any specific event when you were small  that occurred where you were taught very intensively  about the adaawk and the songs?  Yes.  I remember when the family was going to raise a  one-horned goat in marble stone and they get together  for a whole month to -- to learn the songs and they  told the adaawks too and this is what they call --  what the family -- it just the family alone, the  family crest, and their wives and their husband's, and  this is what they call yukwhl si gitsuntxw dit.  That  means they were -- the family were rehearsing by  themself before the great big yuukxw. That's the time  when I ask my great-great-grandmother why. "Why did  they know so many songs?"  I said to her.  Luu  gipgubihl nox't tsim muxw diit.  That means her mother  eats in her -- into their ears when they were small.  Q   That's what she said to you?  A   Yes.  And we got to listen.  Anyone that doesn't  listen will not understand nothing at all or if they  listen they come in this way and go out the other way.  Q   Now, when was this -- how old were you when the  preparations were made for this pole raising,  approximately?  A  Q  A 632  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5 THE  COURT  6  7 MR.  GRANT  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  Do you mean when we restore our pole?  I mean when you talked about the preparations for a  month to prepare for this headstone?  Oh yes.  Yes.  I think I'm about eight.  :  Mr. Grant, I'm sorry, is it a pole raising or is it  a headstone.  A headstone, yes, it was my mistake, My Lord.  This was a headstone that was put up?  The headstone with one-horn goat.  And this was put up by your Uncle George Williams?  Yeah, my grandmother and his -- the Mowatt -- all the  Mowatt brothers from Hazelton.  Now, did any of your uncles come up from Gitsegukla to  prepare for this?  Yeah, one grandfather came up and he brought his  family along with him, his wife, and he stayed with  Uncle George for a whole month before the Feast.  This  is his chief name is 'Wii yaga deets and his white  name is Alfred McDanes.  That's our relatives at  Gitsegukla.  Did your grandmother take you to the meetings before  this Feast where it was practised and the adaawk were  told?  I always go with my mother every night when they were  learning the song.  Okay.  Is there a way of learning the songs?  Is a  drum used when the songs are taught?  Yeah, the drum or if they just sat around they tap on  their hands when they teach the songs.  And you recall some of the songs that you were taught  at that time?  Yes.  You remember them?  Yeah.  Now, your great-grandmother Anhalagyax, she died when  you were still a child?  Yes.  Do you recall about how old you were when she died?  No, I am about 12 or -- do you mean my great-great  grandmother.  Your great-great-grandmother, yes?  Yeah, I was 12 when she died.  Now, your grandmother, Edith Gawa, she lived for --  until 1956?  Yes.  And she -- she continued to train you and teach you 633  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  MR.  GRANT  27  28  THE  COURT  29  30  MR.  GRANT  31  THE  REGIS1  32  33  34  35  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  39  40  41  42  THE  COURT  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  46  47  THE  COURT  the adaawk after your great-grandmother died?  Yes.  Yes.  One of the adaawk that comes from your House is the  adaawk of the one-horned goat; is that right?  Yes.  I don't want you to tell it right now, but I'd like  you to tell the court when did you first hear that  adaawk, in a Feast Hall?  Yeah, I was taught at home and when they have the  Feast they tell the adaawk.  And when was the first Feast that you heard that  adaawk at?  At the raising of the one-horn goat.  Now, you've already described to the court this  afternoon the history of the name Antgulilbix?  Yes.  And I believe you already told the court your  great-grandmother taught you that history?  Yes.  When -- how old were you when she taught you that  history?  I -- as far as I can remember he tells -- she tells  the history and the stories.  From as young as you can ever remember?  Yes.  Yes.  : My Lord, I notice the time.  It may be an appropriate  time to adjourn.  :  All right.  Thank you.  We have a matter to deal  with at 9:30 tomorrow morning?  : Yes, My Lord.  rRAR:  Sorry, My Lord, I understand that they have not  been able to contact Mr. Sterritt yet.  I've just sent  a message out with the sheriff and as of a few moments  ago the registry has not been able to get in contact  with him.  : My Lord, if I may ask the court, I learned of  something just actually at the break, a personal  engagement of which the witness is involved which  requires her to travel tonight and tomorrow to get  back here.  I wonder if we could commence tomorrow at  II a.m.?  :  Well, yes, I suppose we can.  Can we sit the extra  hour to make it up?  : Well, depending -- I'm not opposed to making it up at  some time, just as long as the witness and everybody  else is alert.  :  It's something that's sufficiently important to 634  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  delay all these people an hour?  MR. GRANT: I discussed it with the witness and it's something  that's not variable.  THE COURT:  Well, all right.  Well, can we have the argument  tomorrow on the hearsay rule?  MR. GRANT: Mr. Rush will speak.  He's dealing with that.  MR. RUSH: There's no reason why we couldn't have the argument  tomorrow except for the fact that it was our intention  to lead some further evidence of Mrs. Johnson, and  Your Lordship indicated an interest in hearing some  further evidence on the question of the learning of  the adaawk.  You have some of it this afternoon and  there was going to be some more evidence of that  nature in the morning.  It's our view that you do need  an evidentiary base.  You have some of it with Mrs.  McKenzie and we're going to develop more with Mrs.  Johnson.  THE COURT:  All right.  Well, we'll adjourn then until eleven  tomorrow morning.  If circumstances are suitable  perhaps we'll sit the extra hour in the afternoon if  that's convenient at that time.  RUSH: Thank you.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  MR.  THE  THE  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO MAY 27, 1987)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings transcribed to the best  of my skill and ability.  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter  ever remember?  25  A  2 6 MR.  GRANT  27  2 8 THE  COURT  29  3 0 MR.  GRANT  It may be an appropriate  Yes.  Yes.  : My Lord, I notice the time.  time to adjourn.  :  All right.  Thank you.  We have a matter to deal  with at 9:30 tomorrow morning?  : Yes, My Lord.  31 THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry, My Lord, I understand that they have not  32 been able to contact Mr. Sterritt yet.  I've just sent  33 a message out with the sheriff and as of a few moments  34 ago the registry has not been

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