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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-05-13, 2] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 13, 1987

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 207  1 Smithers, B.C.  2 May 13, 1987  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, this 14th day of May, 1987.  Dlgamuukw, also  6 known as Ken Muldoe, suing on his own behalf and on  7 behalf of all the members of the house of Delgamuukw  8 and others, and Her Majesty the Queen in Right of the  9 Province of British Columbia and the Attorney General  10 of Canada.  11 THE COURT:  I have an application brought by James Russell  12 Sterritt to be added as an intervener in this action.  13 Is Mr. Sterritt present?  14 MR. STERRITT:  Yes.  15 THE COURT:  Come forward somewhere, Mr. Sterritt, if you can  16 find a place.  17 MR. STERRITT:  I'll use this chair here.  18 THE COURT:  All right, that's fine.  Your application, I take  19 it, is to be added to this action as an intervener?  20 MR. STERRITT:  That's correct, your Lordship.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  22 MR. STERRITT:  That's correct.  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  What is it that you're seeking to accomplish  24 by this?  Do you support the Plaintiff or the  25 Defendants, or what?  26 MR. STERRITT:  My intention in intervening, your Honour, is to  27 protect my interests and advance my particular causes,  28 and in some instances those are the same as the  29 Plaintiff's, and I believe in some cases my position  30 will be consistent with the Defendant's positions,  31 your Lordship.  32 THE COURT:  Well, are you a member of any of the Houses that  33 bring this action.  34 MR. STERRITT:  No, I'm not.  That's spelled out in the — I  35 spelled out in the affidavit that point 3, sworn that  36 I'm not a member, subject, or officer of any House,  37 Clan, or nation, a party to the present proceedings  38 before the court.  39 THE COURT:  Well, how do you see your rights as different from  40 the general body of citizens of the province?  If I  41 was to add you as intervener, then presumably a large  42 group of other individuals could also seek to be  43 added, and it would not be convenient.  It would seem  44 we would have a lot of additional parties in this  45 lawsuit, which is difficult enough already.  What is  46 your distinction from the general body of the  47 population? 208  1 MR. STERRITT:  I am an Indian, as pointed out in the first fact,  2 that I'm an Indian pursuant to custom.  3 THE COURT:  I don't know what that means, "pursuant to custom".  4 MR. STERRITT:  Well, under the common-law, that's the basis for  5 the court.  6 THE COURT:  Are you a member of any Indian band?  7 MR. STERRITT:  I'm a member of the Haida Clan, your Honour.  I  8 was adopted on the Queen Charlotte Island, and the  9 name Kagsholand(phonetic) is a Haida title.  And I  10 have two children by a Haida mother, but I'm the son  11 of a white woman, your Honour, and in this case the  12 Plaintiffs, I believe, are advancing the position that  13 is carried forward through only Indian people in the  14 matriarchal line, and I have a concern that my rights  15 are in jeopardy through the action of the Plaintiffs.  16 THE COURT:  Well, what rights are those?  17 MR. STERRITT:  Rights to the soil, rights to the resources.  18 THE COURT:  Do you live in this district?  19 MR. STERRITT:  Yes.  2 0 THE COURT:  Where do you live?  21 MR. STERRITT:  I live variously along the Skeena, Prince Rupert,  22 on the Queen Charlotte Island.  23 THE COURT:  What does it mean in your affidavit, and I'm not  24 sure I can pronounce these words, but it said  25 "affidavit of", and then there's some words that I  26 don't understand, and then "Haida king".  What does  27 that mean?  28 MR. STERRITT:  Well, the Haida I think is already  29 self-explanatory.  30 THE COURT:  I know what Haida is.  31 MR. STERRITT:  The word King, I would expect the court could  32 understand that word at this point by drawing the  33 parallel of, I guess, the original English King,  34 William the Conqueror, who when he set out from France  35 to claim the crown in England proclaimed himself king  36 and then went to England, and after some exercises was  37 crowned as the king.  38 THE COURT:  Well, do you claim to be a king in that sense?  39 MR. STERRITT:  I have the rights of a king, your Honour.  40 THE COURT:  What does it mean when you describe yourself as  41 James Russell Sterritt, Cristian Prince.  42 MR. STERRITT:  The word "prince" is similar to the word "king",  43 except the principle is usually thought of as a  44 descendant in a royal line.  The word "Christian"  45 takes its meaning from the old and knew testament,  46 your Honour, and it takes its -- I guess it's legal  47 standing from the -- from the atmosphere of this 209  1 society, this Christian society.  The word "Christian"  2 is very important in this affidavit as well when it's  3 associated as a Christian Prince because of some of  4 the documents that I would expect to put before the  5 court as intervener because several of the directions  6 that were given to parties that came to this country  7 had advice with respect to territories and people that  8 were encountered in these new territories, and there's  9 several references to what was to be done on meeting  10 Christian principles or the subjects of Christian  11 principles.  12 THE COURT:  You say in your affidavit that the Plaintiff's  13 actions and any finding with that action injures you  14 and a general class of persons related to you.  Who is  15 this general class?  16 MR. STERRITT:  Well, the general class is, as you put it in your  17 question, Your Honour, the general class of -- I don't  18 think citizens is the correct word.  I think what the  19 court has to take into consideration especially in  20 this action is that there is an, at this time in this  21 country, towing process with the constitution, and  22 both the native people and the non-Indian people have  23 a great concern about their status in this country, so  24 I feel that for myself I have been injured in the past  25 by the constitutional process.  I've also been injured  26 by actions related to the entering of the Plaintiff's  27 action here, and I feel that a general class of  28 persons is subject to the same injury.  29 THE COURT:  Well then, you seek to represent, if not a general  30 body of citizens, a general body of the population.  31 MR. STERRITT:  I think that's correct, but in doing so I feel  32 that by referring to myself and the general class I  33 draw it toward a particular class, and that's a class  34 that is -- well, it was -- they were known as the  35 metis, and they required particular rights.  In this  36 case I do the same thing, your Honour.  I have mixed  37 blood.  38 THE COURT:  What is it that you propose if added as an  39 intervenor; that you would cross-examine witnesses,  40 perhaps to produce evidence of your own, make  41 submissions at the end of the trial and generally  42 participate?  43 MR. STERRITT:  On a very limited scope, your Lordship.  44 THE COURT:  Is there any reason that I should know as to why  45 this wasn't brought before the trial started?  This  46 action has been pending for some years, it's been well  47 publicized, it's been well known this trial has been 210  1 going on.  Why didn't you apply earlier and get this  2 straightened out before the trial started?  3 MR. STERRITT:  I wasn't in a position to do so, your Lordship.  4 THE COURT:  Well, I don't know what that means, if that's all  5 you want to tell me.  6 MR. STERRITT:  Well, I was in jail, your Lordship, and I only  7 got out of jail about two weeks ago, and I determined  8 that this was a viable course of pursuing my interest  9 in the case, and I began to inquire about this  10 procedure shortly before the trial opened, and I had  11 some difficulty in learning the procedure to be  12 entered as an intervenor, your Lordship.  I could say  13 that I have been representing myself in court for some  14 seven years now, and I had a trial two weeks ago in  15 which I represented myself successfully, and I'm  16 familiar with the court procedures and I'm familiar  17 with the jurisdiction of the court, and I guess in  18 answer to the question you asked a minute ago, what  19 would I expect to do, it's obviously within the powers  20 of the court to direct the proceedings of the court as  21 they relate to the Plaintiffs and the Defendants, and  22 I would expect exactly the same, to apply.  23 THE COURT:  All right.  Anything else you want to tell me?  24 MR. STERRITT:  Well, the last of the three causes that I  25 mentioned, that intervenor would be vindicated by  26 entering into this matter.  I believe that speaks for  27 itself.  The word vindicate has two meanings; one, to  28 correct some wrongs in the past, as well as to  29 achieve -- achieve some objective in the present.  30 THE COURT:  Wrongs you say were committed by whom?  31 MR. STERRITT:  Well, I would have to say the court, Your Honour,  32 and the Governments -- Governments of British Columbia  33 and of Canada, somewhat in the same line that the  34 Plaintiffs have presented the common-law as I  35 understand it is a process, and the process has not  36 been opened to myself or to the Plaintiffs, I don't  37 think, to the extent that they've been opened to the  38 governments and to the agents of the governments, and  39 that has acted against me me for the past seven years,  40 but as I say, by being entered as an intervenor in  41 this case I feel that I would be vindicated and have  42 an opportunity to protect my rights and advance my  43 cause.  44 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Do any of the present parties  45 to the action support Mr. Sterritt's application?  46 There being no response I take it that no one does.  47 Mr. Sterritt, I'm not able to accede to your 211  1 application.  I'm not sure that I precisely understand  2 what it is that you seek to do, but as it appears to  3 me it would be highly inconvenient to start adding  4 parties to this litigation at this stage.  More  5 importantly, it is my view that in the issues that  6 have been raised by the pleadings in this action the  7 Plaintiffs seek certain remedies, and they are being  8 opposed by experienced counsel, one of whom is the  9 Attorney General of British Columbia, who by law,  10 whether one necessarily shares his views of a  11 particular case or not, is the representative of  12 the -- of the public, and for that reason the  13 interests that you seek to represent are already by  14 law represented by the Attorney General.  Even more  15 importantly, I think, is the fact that you have some  16 particular grievances apparently, which may be valid  17 or may not be valid, that's not for me to say, but for  18 the proper management of the court's business it's my  19 view that the remedies you seek, whatever they may be,  20 should be brought or should be enforced by a separate  21 action and not to be added to this one.  If you have a  22 complaint against any of the parties to this lawsuit  23 or to the -- against the Crown, or, as you say,  24 against the court, then it's my view that your remedy  25 must be found not in these proceedings but elsewhere.  26 You can bring such proceedings or take such other  27 steps as you may be advised, but I am not proposing to  28 add you to this lawsuit, and your application on  29 behalf is dismissed.  30 MR. STERRITT:  Thank you, Mr. McEachern.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, my instructions are to take no position  32 with respect to this application, partly because it  33 was not clear to me what the basis for it was.  I  34 think, however, in view of some of Mr. Sterritt's  35 remarks, it should be made clear that while he is  36 denied a particular status in the proceedings, he is  37 at liberty, I am sure, at any time to either approach  38 one of the parties whose interests he sees aligned  39 with his at that particular time, or to come back to  40 your Lordship if he is able to identify an interest  41 which is placed in jeopardy by a particular  42 submission.  I wouldn't like the applicant to go away  43 with the idea that the courts are always -- are  44 completely closed to him.  45 THE COURT:  Well, he may have left under that apprehension, Mr.  46 Goldie, because he wasn't here to hear what you just  47 said, but that is merely a matter of record.  I don't 212  please.  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  MR.  GRANT  11  MR.  GOLDI  12  13  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  know what course Mr. Sterritt should take, I don't  think it's my function to advise him.  He may hear of  what you said, Mr. Goldie and take advantage of it,  that's not really a matter I can do much about.  I  think we have enough problems on our hands right now  without extending the scope of the inquiry.  We'll  proceed with this trial in its present form.  Are you  ready to proceed, Mr. Rush?  Yes, my Lord.  :  Yes.  We're ready to proceed with Mrs. McKenzie.  E:  I think my friend, Mr. Rush, was going to correct a  statement that was made with respect to the Province  on opening day.  Just before we begin, my Lord, we brought to your  Lordship's attention at the beginning of the trial  that certain documents that were provided by, or at  least the list sought by way of letter of the  Province, had not been delivered.  We've had  correspondence, checked the correspondence, and we  find in fact that these documents were delivered.  :  All right, thank you.  In reviewing my notes last  night.  I don't think I have a definition of Nax Nok.  :  I hope that by the time the evidence is through you  will.  :  I think one was given, but I just didn't get it.  I  can look it up in the transcript, which was just  handed to me a moment ago, but I thought it would be  an easy manner for somebody to tell me.  :  It's something I would rather have the witness  explain than myself, because it's not a --  :  Well, can we get going here, we're dragging again.  Madam Translators, can you come forward too,  GRANT:  Now, my Lord, I would like to file with the court  prior to Mrs. McKenzie's evidence a court agenda to  the opening, which has certain corrections on it, and  in fact, it's marginally noted in the margin as to  where those corrections should be in the transcript.  Copies of that have been given to both parties.  COURT:  All right, thank you.  I'll add that to the opening.  REGISTRAR:  Witness, I remind you, you are still under oath?  A   Yes.  GRANT:  Q  A  I possibly, because court asked for this explanation,  and you did give it yesterday, maybe you could explain  to him how you would explain what Nax Nok is?  I believe your Lordship is stating this, as a Gitksan  law we start our procedures with a Nax Nok.  Nax Nok 213  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 THE  11  12 THE  13  14  15 THE  16 MR.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  is used in starting in a Feast House.  When there is a  death of a Chief, raising of a totem pole, a head  stone, and then the Feast is put on, and the first  thing that appears in the Feast House is for the Chief  to act out their Nax Nok, which is a living thing to  us, and you may call it a spritual thing that gives  the strength of what the proceedings of a Feast would  be.  I will -- we will start heavy Feasting by acting  out that Nax Nok.  COURT:  It's a ritual?  A   It's the power.  COURT:  Is it a ritual?  A  Well, in a way, yes, the way it was and the way it is  today.  COURT:  All right.  GRANT:  My Lord, to assist you, just to advise you how I  anticipate proceeding with this, later in Miss  McKenzie's evidence she will describe some aspects of  the Nax Nok, another witness will be describing it  more fully, and I hope you have an opportunity to  actually see through an expert from a piece of the  performance of a Nax Nok.  And I'll elucidate on this.  All right, thank you.  Mrs. McKenzie, before I start, if you want a glass of  water at any time, you just mention it.  Yesterday we  ended up where you were explaining your authority as  Gyoluugyat to be in this action and represent the  House.  When did your training as a Chief begin, and  how did it begin?  A   It began when I was born.  Two weeks later there was a  Feasting put on by my family, House, for the head  Chiefs to recognize me, and as I mentioned yesterday,  that our wilxsi'witxw, that's the family of my father,  would aid me in any way, and this is one particular  time, the first time that they have to handle me, give  me what is needed for the preparation, so a cradle was  made for me by my uncle, Jim Lax Nitsik', and he  walked from Gitangasx to Kispiox with this cradle, and  a Feasting was held, and here they put me in this  cradle and they took me around to the head Chiefs for  the head Chiefs to give power to me.  I was given a  name at that time, my infant name.  Three years later  my aunts came up again and they pierced my ears, and  it was done by my aunt.  I'll mention their names,  because they're of the house of Haaluus.  They --  there were Agnes Sutton and Mrs. Selina Williams.  COURT  GRANT  Q 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  0  A  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5 MR.  GRANT  214  Can I just stop for a moment?  Yes.  You said that your uncle made this cradle and his name  was Jim Lax Nitsik' did he have a Chief's name?  Yes.  What was that?  'Wii Hlengwax.  Okay.  You also indicated you were given an infant's  name?  Yes.  At that Feast?  Yes.  When you were two weeks old.  What was that name?  K'am akst, K'am akst.  :   Can Miss Stevens spell it for the court.  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  K-'-a-m-a-k-s-t.  17 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, but I really can't hear what the  18 translator is saying very well.  19 THE TRANSLATOR: K underlined.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 THE TRANSLATOR: Apostrophe a-m-a-k-s-t.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  And you said you were carried around at this Feast to  the Chiefs.  Who carried you around?  My grandmother.  3:  Could my friend ask her the source of her  information, what went on when she was two weeks old?  Before that I would like to ask you what your name --  this name K'am akst means.  K'am akst means "To dip in water".  And is that a name in your House?  Yes.  Now, before going to the next Feast, possibly you  could tell the court how you know what happened at  this Feast when you were an infant?  My grandmother had to tell me, so she repeated  everything what went on from the day I was born.  Okay.  And the other Chiefs who were Chiefs from other  Clans were present at this Feast?  Yes.  And from other villages?  And from other villages.  Do Chiefs today know that this was your infant name?  Yes.  Now, you were starting to describe, I believe you  2 3 MR.  GRANT  24  Q  25  26  A  2 7 MR.  GOLDI  28  2 9 MR.  GRANT  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q 215  1 said, two or three years later, this other ceremony?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Would you go on with -- just describe that then?  4 A  As I said, that after -- when I was three years old I  5 had to have my ears pierced.  The reason for this is  6 going through all of this procedure from my birth up  7 to today, that my parents were both head of the House,  8 Chief of a House, and they had Houses.  My father was  9 from Kitwangak, and his Chief name was Haaluus, and  10 Haaluus' House.  My mother is from Kuldo'o, and her  11 name, her Chief name was Madiik.  Now, she has a House  12 at Kuldo'o.  Now, that means that having both parents  13 as head Chief I become as -- I don't know how to use  14 the word, but in English you would indicate it as a  15 princess.  16 Q   Is there a Gitksan word for how that would be?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   What is that?  19 A   Hlgu wilksahlxw.  20 MR. GRANT:  Could you provide a spelling for that, Miss Stevens.  21 THE TRANSLATOR: H-1-g-u-w-i-l-k-s-a-h-l-x-w.  22 MR. GRANT:  23 Q   Proceed.  You were describing this ear-piercing event?  24 A   This ear piercing is not only for girls, it's done on  25 boys as well, only just the one side for the boys.  26 Being a female I had to have both my ears pierced.  27 Q   Did this occur at a Feast or at some other event?  28 A  Well, the piercing wasn't done at the Feasting, but it  29 was the day after my ears were pierced, when they held  30 a Feasting to show the head Chiefs that I had my ears  31 pierced, and then a name was given to me again at that  32 time.  33 Q   And what was that name?  34 A   I got so many names --  35 Q   Just take your time and think of it?  36 A   Sgwina mix kaaxhl  37 MR. GRANT:  Before you go on on I'll have the translator spell  38 it.  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  S-g-w-i-n-a, that's one word, m-i-x, stop,  40 K-a-a-x-h-1, h-a-a-s.  41 A  May I make a correction on that.  Just rub off the  42 Haas on that.  It's just Sgwina mix.  4 3 MR. GRANT:  44 Q   That's the H-a-a-s?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 Q   What does that name mean?  47 A   The way I say or tell it, everyone of us in this room 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  216  knows what a fireweed is.  It's a plant that has these  flowers, purple flowers on it.  Now, the fall there's  a fluff right at the tip of this plant, and that's  what we call sgwina mix kaaxhl, is that white fluff.  Okay.  Is there anyone else in your House that now  holds this name?  Yes.  Who is that?  My granddaughter.  Could you give her name?  Carla Craig.  You described that the persons, your aunts, as you  said, Agnes Sutton and Selina Williams, were the once  who pierced your ears.  Can you explain more precisely  their relationship to you and why they were the ones  that pierced your ears?  They were the sisters of my father, and that's who I  said yesterday that they're my wilxsi bagxws, is the  name for it, and I said yesterday that my wilxsi  bagxws would be the people to groom me and to aid me  to anything I needed, support.  Does the piercing of the ears when you were three  years old, does that signify anything with respect to  the fact that you are a Chief today?  Yes, it does.  When I had my ears pierced, and I wear  these ear-rings, it gives -- in Gitksan law it means  that I won't take or hear anything that's wrongful.  Um-hum.  And by wear these ear-rings and my bracelets, to the  Gitksan it's not jewellery, it's our identification.  In the olden days it's only very few women and men  would be able to have their ears pierced.  And those men and women that were able to have their  ears pierced, were they all -- I will use your  translation of the children of royalty, I think as you  tried to make an analogy?  Yes.  That's what it is.  And they were those who would succeed to chiefly  names?  Yes.  Okay.  Can you continue -- well, before you continue,  you're wearing bracelets now; is that right?  Yes.  Maybe you could just hold them above the dock so the  court can see them.  Now, on those bracelets is there  anything that significant that is related to  Gyoluugyat? 217  1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  MR GRANT:  8  THE  COURT  9  10  11  A  12  13  THE  COURT  14  A  15  THE  COURT  16  A  17  18  THE  COURT  19  A  20  THE  COURT  21  A  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  MR.  GRANT  42  MR.  GOLDI  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GRANT  45  Q  46  47  A  Yes.  My ear-rings show that I'm from the Lax gibuu  Clan.  Um-hum?  My bracelet shows that I -- our crest is the grizzly  bear, the wolf is my Clan, the dibe is my crest that  are engraved on these bracelets.  Okay.  Did you --  :  I didn't really understand that.  You didn't say  that your bracelets identify your House; is that what  you meant, or were you saying something different?  It identifies my crest and my Clan.  The Clan I belong  to is Lax gibuu.  :  Well, you said your ear-rings showed your Clan?  Yes.  :  Yes?  They engraved my bracelets, engraved on them or my  crests, like the grizzly bear.  :  And you said wolf?  And the ram.  :  And the ram.  Didn't you say wolf?  Yes.  The wolf is my Clan.  :  Yes, all right.  Maybe I'll ask a question which might give you an  opportunity to clarify it.  When you say the grizzly  bear and the ram, are those crests that belong to all  the Lax gibuu, or do they belong to the House of  Gyoluugyat?  They only belong to the house of Gyoluugyat, is the  grizzly bear and the ram.  Okay.  After you received this name at the time of  your ear piercing, did you receive any other names?  When young girls and young boys reach the age of  puberty a Feast is given for that purpose too, and  names are given again.  Did this happen to you?  Yes.  And how old were you about when this happened, when  you received another name?  About 13 years old.  :  And did that occur -- and what name did you receive?  E:  I have no objection to leading on that.  :  Thank you.  The reason I'm not leading, sometimes my pronunciation  is as misleading as leading.  If you wish me, I will?  Yes, I think so, because I -- with all these names 21E  1  2  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  MR.  GOLDI  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  MR.  GOLDI  11  MR.  GRANT  12  Q  13  A  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  THE  TRANS  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT  that are in me, and trying to have this straight as  much as I can, these names are not coming fast enough  for me.  :  Maybe I'll have the interpreter come over here  because she can pronounce the name better than I, and  I'll try to pronounce it.  E:  No.  I would encourage my friend to try.  :  I will try.  Thank you, Mr. Goldie, I appreciate  your confidence in me.  E:  It's not confidence, it's past experience.  Gwineekxw'm dak', is that the name?  Yes, pretty close.  I'll say again, Gwineekxw'm dak'.  :  And what does -- well, I'll have the reporter spell  it.  LATOR:  G-w-i-n-e-e-k-x-w-'-m-d-a-k'.  :  Thank you.  What does that name mean?  It means the coal bark of a tree.  Is this a name in the House of Gyoluugyat?  Yes.  Now, you've described a number of the names that  you've received.  Can you tell the court now the  significance of receiving these -- of you taking on  different names at different times in your life.  What  is the significance to the Gitksan of holding names?  The way I describe myself from birth now up to what I  just said is in Gitksan it shows the preparation to  become a Chief.  In Gitksan law you have to work  yourself up to become a Chief.  You don't get a Chief  name just if you want it today, you'll have it, it  will be given to you.  It doesn't work that way.  In  in the Gitksan law, right from infant we have to  prepare our children to reach the stage of the  becoming a head Chief of a House or to become a Chief,  the wing of a Chief of the House.  Now, all these,  when names are changed there's Feasting giving every  time, and this is the strength of the names, and it's  the strength of the Feasting, because in a Feasting  this is where we make our laws.  Our names are given  in a Feasting, marriage is taken to a Feasting,  divorce is taken into a Feasting, and the territory we  hold we -- we say what part of the territory each  Chief holds, so each Feasting has a meaning, and each  Chief has to work himself up to become a head Chief.  :  I would like to move into another area now, my Lord. 219  1  2  3  4 MR. GOLDI  5  6  7 THE COURT  9  10  11  12  13  14 MR.  GOLDI  15  16  17  18  19 MR.  2 0 MR.  21 MR.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37 THE  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  GRANT  GOLDI  GRANT  COURT  I would like to ask you, Gyoluugyat, to give your  adaawk, that is the adaawk, your House.  Could you  tell the court the adaawk or history of Gyoluugyat?  E: Before the witness says it, I take it your Lordship  will rule that the adaawk is qualified as an exception  to the hearsay rule.  :  Well, it may be that it will come to that.  I'm not  sure that I've heard enough to know whether it is an  exception to the hearsay rule and therefore  admissible.  Certainly it would be doubtfully  admissible merely on the say so of one witness, but I  would look forward to some assistance from counsel in  that regard.  E:  Well, the reason I made the intervention I did was  that there has been -- there has been evidence led  with respect to it, and I would anticipate if my  friend would make a submission before the witness was  asked to give the evidence in question.  :  With respect to the admissibility?  E:  Yes.  :  Yes, my Lord, as you appreciate, yesterday there was  evidence led through the witness which you yourself  were aware of the focus of that evidence as to the  oral history.  Now, I -- if what you're suggesting is  that if we only led the adaawk and the significance of  the adaawk through one witness, that that may not be  sufficient.  I can assure you that we will be  referring to that through other witnesses as well.  If  on the other hand you're suggesting that you would  like me to ask the witness more about the oral history  on the adaawk, I can pursue that with this witness  and, finally, if you are asking for a submission on  the law of the admissibility of the adaawk, then I  can, and my associate Mr. Rush is prepared to deal  with that, so before I proceed I wanted to be clear as  to what you were considering.  :  Well, I'm not really suggesting that you should  follow one course or another.  I have some hesitation  about the proposition, if such it is, and I'm not sure  that it is, that a person, assuming the highest level  of credibility, can prove a matter of what I will call  Gitksan law just on the say so, just on his own say  so.  I'm not urging counsel to extend the evidence  unnecessarily, but I'm taking in what's being adduced  now, and at some stage I expect I will have to rule.  I think it was common ground several times yesterday  that -- that hearsay can be received, can be 220  1 admissible in matters of this kind, and various  2 authorities have dealt with that.  The Australian case  3 dealt with it quite extensively.  4 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  5 THE COURT:  But it may not be that I can pass on the  6 admissibility of the evidence until some later time.  7 If you call Mrs. McKenzie and she gives me her  8 understanding of the adaawk, or her recollection of  9 it, which I guess is really what it is, and if that's  10 all I hear, that may not be enough.  I wouldn't want  11 to predict that far in the future what the result will  12 be.  I think that it is appropriate that I should hear  13 what she says about the terms of the adaawk, if that's  14 the proper way to describe it, and whether that's  15 admissible or not seems to me to be a matter that will  16 have to be considered later.  17 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I think you can appreciate the point that I  18 anticipate that other witnesses will explain the  19 significance and the varification procedure of the  20 adaawk, but I'm at the point now where I would like  21 her to tell her adaawk, and of course when you deal  22 with the question of its admissibility you have the  23 benefit of those other witnesses explaining further  24 the significance.  25 THE COURT:  Well, perhaps I should ask Mr. Goldie the precise  26 thrust of his observation a moment ago.  Are you  27 suggesting, Mr. Goldie, that I should rule now that  28 this is admissible as to the exception to the hearsay  29 rule?  30 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  I anticipate my friend would make a submission  31 either that your ruling be made now, if he felt the  32 evidence justified that, or that it be admitted, or  33 heard, I should say to be more precise, that it be  34 heard subject to a later submission.  It is -- it  35 matters not to me, except that there be a point, we  36 have reached a point.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Where the evidence is given either as a result of a  39 ruling or subject to a future ruling.  40 THE COURT:  I think it's the latter.  41 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  That is what I was proposing.  42 THE COURT:  Evidence in contemplation of a ruling.  All right.  43 What are you asking the witness, the adaawk of the  44 Gyoluugyat or the adaawk of the Gitksan.  45 MR. GRANT:  The adaawk of the Gyoluugyat's House.  There are  46 many adaawk of the Gitksan.  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes. 221  Some of which you will hear.  Thank you.  1 MR. GRANT:  2 THE COURT:  3 MR. GRANT:  4 Q   Now, before I ask you to give the adaawk, have you as  5 Gyoluugyat given the adaawk of Gyoluugyat in a Feast  6 or an event of the Gitksan, or have others -- other  7 Chiefs of your House given it in your presence?  8 A  Would you rephrase that again, when you say of  9 Gitksan.  10 Q   Okay.  11 A   I'm not too sure of that, your question.  12 Q   As opposed to being in this court, have you given  13 Gyoluugyat's adaawk at a Gitksan Feast?  14 A   Yes, I have.  15 Q   Under Gitksan law, is that the place where the Gitksan  16 Chiefs give their adaawk?  17 A   Yes.  18 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Could you —  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me.  Is the point of my friend's question  20 that what she is now going to tell us she has told us  21 on a number of other occasions, is that what --  22 THE COURT:  I'm not sure.  23 MR. GRANT:  That's part of it, yes.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  So this, I just want to be clear on this, what we  25 are to hear now is not you, it is something which the  26 witness has said on a number of other occasions in the  27 same terms as she now proposes to give it?  28 MR. GRANT:  You're anticipating my question, Mr. Goldie.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  3 0 MR. GRANT:  31 Q   Just before you go on, the discussion between the  32 court and counsel was with respect to rulings of  33 admissibility, and that's not for you to -- don't let  34 that distract you from what you are saying, that's a  35 matter of legal argument that we will have.  Can you  36 tell the court, in as much detail as you feel  37 appropriate, the adaawk of Gyoluugyat today?  38 A   Right from start Gitan gasx.  39 Q   Yes.  Starting from the earliest time and bringing the  40 history of your House forward, as you would tell it in  41 the Feast.  And if it's easier to tell parts of it in  42 Gitksan, then you can advise the court of that and the  43 translator is there to assist you.  44 A   I'll try and make this very brief, because I imagine  45 that the other Plaintiffs would have a more lengthy  46 adaawk than others, so I'm going to give it briefly at  47 this time. 222  1 Q   Okay.  Before you go on, I would like you to feel  2 comfortable about taking your time and you don't feel  3 that you do have to edit it.  Do as much as you would  4 like?  5 A   The adaawk of Gyoluugyat starts at Gitan gasx.  It's a  6 village, and to translate, the Gitan gasx is the  7 village of wild rice.  It's been the oldest village up  8 north.  The location is near Bear Lake.  In the House  9 of Gyoluugyat and Gitan gasx we have a warrior, and  10 the name of our warrior in our House, Gyoluugyat's  11 House, is Suuwiigos.  12 MR. GRANT:  Just stop to have the translator spell that.  13 THE TRANSLATOR:  S-u-u-w-i-i-g-o-s.  14 THE COURT:  O-s?  15 THE TRANSLATOR: Yes.  16 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Proceed?  There's another group of native people.  They're  called Tsi tsa wit, and they're further up north.  They came down to Gitan gasx, and they had seen that  the people of Gitan gasx had quite a bit of land, so  they decided to raid the village of Gitan gasx to get  more of their land.  Suuwiigos had a brother by the  names of Tsawaas.  :  I'm sorry?  LATOR:  T-s-a-w-a-a-s.  :  Yep.  Proceed?  While he was on his trapline, and after he was  discovered that somebody had killed him, and this made  Suuwiigos furious, so he started a group.  He asked  for a group of people to go with him, to go to the Tsi  tsa wit territory.  :  I don't think I had a spelling of Tsi tsa wit.  Maybe you should give the spelling now.  :  I thought we did.  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  I don't think so.  17  MR.  GRANT  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  THE  TRANS  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  THE  COURT  4 0 THE COURT  41 MR. GRANT  42 THE COURT  All right, I'm sorry.  We had the names, but Tsi tsa wit was --  I thought that was Suuwiigos.  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  No.  That's the name of a warrior.  44 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Oh, yes.  You're right, sorry.  45 THE TRANSLATOR:  T-s-i-t-s-a-w-i-t.  4 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 7 MR. GRANT: 223  1 Q   Proceed, Mrs. McKenzie?  2 A   They raided -- they came upon a place where they only  3 seen smoke coming out from the ground, and these were  4 the people we call in Gitksan, Luu Tsobim tsim yibit,  5 and it means the people underground, living  6 underground.  7 MR. GRANT:  Madam Translator, can you spell that for us, please?  8 THE TRANSLATOR:  L-u-u-t-s-o-b-i-m-y-i-b-i-t.  9 THE COURT:  Y?  10 THE TRANSLATOR:  I-b-i-t.  11 MR. GRANT:  Proceed?  They had a very good idea of their location of this  village that they came upon, so they returned, and  Suuwiigos prepared himself to declare war with these  people, so he -- they killed a grizzly bear and they  took the hide, almost a whole hide with the head and  paws and everything on it.  Now, they prepared this  grizzly hide, they cleaned it, scraped all the fat off  it.  Now, they went and got pitch from the jack pine  trees, and they rubbed it on this fur part of the  hide, and they covered it with sand.  Now, they had  this -- had this hide out, and the people had bow and  arrows.  They shot at this hide.  If the arrow goes  through they have to put more pitch and more sand to  it for it to be arrow proof, you would say.  Now, when  this was ready, Gyoluugyat knew that this armour was  ready for him, so they set off again and they went to  where this village of the people that lived  underground.  Now, he advised his army that he --  they'll sneak up to this place while he himself draped  in this grizzly bear skin, and he walked down the  opposite of the village, the adaawk goes like there  was a gulley, a deep gulley, and this is where the  grizzly bear with Suuwiigos in it walked, and then the  people of the underground seen this grizzly bear, and  they went out, they want to kill it, so they did.  Now, they took all their arrows, they shot at the bear  and they didn't penetrate at all, so all their arrows  were used up.  This is when the force came and went  into dug up the people, they killed them all.  Now,  this is how Suuwiigos led this group of people to  fight off these Tsi tsa wit.  Now, when this was over  Suuwiigos returned to Gitan gasx.  Could I interject for a moment?  Yes.  You said that -- that after they shot their arrows at  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q 224  1 the grizzly, that is when the force came?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   What do you mean by "the force"?  4 A   The people that Suuwiigos went with, his --  5 Q   Okay.  And the other point of clarification you  6 described, there was a gulley.  Was the grizzly bear  7 in the gulley or on one side or the other of it?  8 A   It was on one side, walking like at the edge of the  9 gulley.  10 Q   Okay.  And the people?  11 A  And it went down, so the people that went down to  12 shoot at the Grizzly bear, they fell in this high  13 gulley, and that's how some of them were killed.  14 Q   Okay.  Go ahead?  15 A   He returned to Gitan gasx.  Now, he knew that he had  16 to have someone with him to -- to help -- to aid him  17 or to -- he has to have a brave person too, so that  18 they would do more raiding, because they -- he knew  19 that there were still more Tsi tsa wit in other  20 places.  He had -- now, this is not clarified to me,  21 but I'll say it both.  It's either Suuwiigos had a  22 lovely daughter or a lovely sister, and he wanted  23 someone to marry his sister, so he sent word out that  24 he had a beautiful sister or beautiful daughter, and  25 the men of the -- of other places, villages other than  26 outside of the Gitan gasx came, and quite a few came.  27 Suuwiigos didn't think that there were -- he wasn't  28 the man for his sister, so one day this man came, he  29 heard about Suuwiigos and he heard that he had this  30 lovely lady.  So he went -- he went into Gyoluugyat's  31 House, and Gyoluugyat never turned, and this man by  32 the name of Kuutkunuxws came, and he seen Gyoluugyat  33 alongside the fire, so he went over to the fire, of  34 course he was -- Suuwiigos was laying alongside the  35 fire putting heat on his back.  36 Q   Could I just interrupt.  You referred to Gyoluugyat,  37 he went in and he saw Gyoluugyat and he -- then you  38 said Suuwiigos.  Was it Gyoluugyat or Suuwiigos that  39 he saw?  40 A   It was Suuwiigos that he saw in Gyoluugyat's House.  41 Q   Okay.  Go ahead?  42 A   Now Kuutkunuxws went and ruffled this fire, and there  43 were sparks come out, and it fell on Suuwiigos' back.  44 He never turned, and again Suuwiigos made the fire  45 flare up, more sparks.  Suuwiigos never moved.  So  46 Kuutkunuxws stepped back towards the door and he stood  47 there.  This is when Suuwiigos got up with a club and 225  1 he went to Kuutkunuxws and asked him what he was  2 doing, and Kuutkunuxws never said anything.  He said  3 "If you don't tell me what you're doing here", he  4 said, "I'll club you".  He raised his club,  5 Kuutkunuxws never blinked, and that showed that he was  6 very brave, and Suuwiigos knew then too that  7 Kuutkunuxws was a very brave man.  Right there he said  8 to Kuutkunuxws that he was a brave man and that if he  9 wanted to marry his sister or daughter he would let  10 her marry him.  Now, so the two, Suuwiigos and  11 Kuutkunuxws, travelled together after he married,  12 Kuutkunuxws married Suuwiigos' lady.  Now, they  13 travelled together, and this is when our crests came.  14 While going out looking for the Tsi tsa wit they came  15 across a big tree, and they made their camp underneath  16 this tree, and during the night they heard noises, and  17 it was coming out from the tree that they were under.  18 Now, Kuutkunuxws went up and to get -- to see what  19 he -- what was making this noise on this tree, and he  20 seen this thing, it was a human being, but it was a  21 giant human being.  Now, he came down and told  22 Suuwiigos about it.  Now Suuwiigos went up to see this  23 big human being.  Now, this is when Suuwiigos got to  24 this figure, this human figure, the giant one.  He  25 took it and knocked it down and swung it to the  26 ground.  So they left, so when Suuwiigos, before he  27 left, he tell Kuutkunuxws "I will have that figure for  28 my crest".  Now, this is why we have the crest in  29 Gyoluugyat's House of Gyadim Lax ganit is our crest.  30 Now, the second time -- am I still going?  31 MR. GRANT:   I just want to give her a moment.  Can you spell  32 that, please?  33 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-y-a-d-i-m L-a-x-g-a-n-i-t  34 THE COURT:  Now, that word is what, the name of the crest?  35 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry.  36 THE COURT:  Is that word that was just spelled, which I won't  attempt to pronounce, the name of the crest?  Yes.  Is that the name of the crest that you've just given?  Yes.  It's Gyadim Lax ganit.  :  Yes.  And what would that translate as?  The man of the tree.  Before you go on, you said that Suuwiigos knocked this  huge human being down?  37  38  A  39  MR.  GRANT  40  Q  41  A  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47 226  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 THE  8  9 MR.  10 THE  11 MR.  12  13 THE  14 MR.  15  16  17  18 THE  19 MR.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31  32  33  34  35 THE  36  37 MR.  38  3 9 MR.  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   Yes.  Q   Did he kill it or was it?  A   To my knowledge it didn't say in the oral history that  he killed it, but he might have knocked him out or  something, but the way it was done, that he that it  would be his crest.  COURT:  I wasn't given the spelling of the name of the brave  stranger.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  The one who came and married his daughter?  Yes.  I'm sorry.  Just one moment.  What I would like to refer you  to  COURT:  Well, can I not have the spelling?  GRANT:  Yes.  It's G-u -- I'm sorry, it's in the pleadings  that I'm referring to.  The pleadings were not  necessarily phonetically spelled.  Okay.  Go ahead  then.  TRANSLATOR:  Kuutkunuxws.  GRANT:  Q   I would like to ask you a question before you proceed.  Is there a present holder of the name Kuutkunuxws?  A   Yes.  Q   Who is that?  A   Today it's held by William Morrison in Kispiox.  Q   And do you know a Chief named Woosim Lax ha?  A   Yes.  Q   And who is that?  A   Today it's Victor Mowatt.  Get that spelled?  TRANSLATOR:  W-o-o-s-i-m L-a-x, underlined, h-a.  GRANT:  Q   Is Woosim Lax ha related to Kuutkunuxws?  A   Yes.  Q   Are they in the same House?  A   I imagine they are, yes.  COURT:  I'm sorry.  They're in the same House?  A   Yes.  GOLDIE:  Which is the other reference in the Statement of  Claim.  GRANT:  Q   The reference that I would like -- I'll ask is to  paragraph 47 of the Statement of Claim filed on May  11th.  I'll just ask you, the reference there is that  the Plaintiff:  "Woosimlaxha, also known as Victor Mowatt, suing on  his ownbehalf and on behalf of all the members of  the House of Gutginuxw." 227  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12 THE  13 MR.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  2 6 THE  27  2 8 MR.  29  3 0 MS.  31 THE  32  33  34 MR.  35  36  37  38  39 THE  4 0 MS.  41  42  43 THE  4 4 MS.  45 THE  4 6 MR.  47  A  COURT  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  Q  Does that refer to Victor Mowatt and William  Morrison's House?  Yes.  Who is Mr. Mowatt?  Victor Mowatt.  Which name does he hold?  Yes.  I haven't heard of him before.  Okay.  Which name does Victor Mowatt hold?  Woosim Lax ha.  All right, thank you.  Just -- okay.  Now, you had proceeded after the event  under the tree and that crest.  Could you go on with  the adaawk?  A   In -- they still travelled on.  Like I say, I wanted  to do this as briefly, as I could.  They -- they knew  that they were on heels of some -- another group  maybe, and they knew that they were near the place  where they'll meet with other group of people, that  there were going to have -- we say in Gitksan wil  digitxw:  Now, I would like to call upon my  interpreter to say the word to tell the court what we  mean when we say we wil digitxw.  COURT:  What is the word first?  A  Wil digitxw.  GRANT:  Okay.  Miss Stevens can spell it and Miss Howard can  explain.  STEVENS:  W-i-1 d-i-g-i-t-x-w.  COURT:  All right.  Mr. grant what is the translator going  to do now.  Is the witness going to give the evidence  in her dialect and then be translated?  GRANT:  Q   Well, the witness has asked the translator to explain  what Wil digitxw means.  That's what I understood you  asked?  A   Yes.  COURT:  Can you do that?  HOWARD:  Wil digitxw was when a group of people meet  together and they have a war, or they have a fight  amongst the two groups.  COURT:  A battle?  HOWARD:  Um-hum.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  GRANT:  Q   Proceed? 228  1 A   Now, again at nighttime they -- well, at dawn they go,  2 Kuutkunuxws and Suuwiigos and the people that are  3 doing battle, they camped again near a lake.  Now,  4 they -- Suuwiigos didn't know just how far ahead these  5 people were from where they were, so anyway, he went  6 down to the lake to get some water.  Now, just when he  7 got to the lake he seen shadows on the surface of this  8 lake, and he looked, he stopped, and he watched, and  9 he seen the movement, so he knew that the people they  10 were after were up in the trees just above them, so he  11 went back to his -- to Kuutkunuxws and to the other  12 people and told them "Our enemies are just above us",  13 so this is how they went, and of course they fought  14 the battle.  Now, then again, this is how Gyoluugyat  15 received the crest of these shadows.  Now, on our  16 blankets and on our -- a painting of our Houses we  17 have these figures.  They're a group of people, and  18 they come in zig zag way on our blankets.  Now, this  19 is 'Nii tsabim lax gan.  The first one was Gyadim Lax  20 ganit.  Now there is 'Nii tsabim lax gan, when there's  21 a group of people.  And this is how we got our crest  22 again.  Now, this is the way that the Gitksan people  23 get their crests, is anything unique that they come  24 across or they've seen they've taken it as their  25 crests.  Now, the people that travel, any more unique  26 things happening you will find that in other House,  27 Chief's Houses.  Our Chief has more crests than the  28 other House because they go out to look for these  29 things so they will have a crest, and who has the more  30 crests are the people it shows that they work  31 together, and they make it very strong.  And this is  32 how these crests mean so much to us, is by looking for  33 it, and to keep it as ourselves in one House.  Now, in  34 another House a Chief would have a crest.  Now, we  35 can't borrow crest from other Houses.  What House  36 belongs, their crest belongs to one House, is their  37 property.  Now, these are how strong these crests  38 stand in the House of a Chief.  No one can use other  39 Houses, Chief's Houses' what crests they have.  If  40 they do they -- there's embarrasment of the Chief.  41 There has to be punishment.  We go to the House of  42 that whoever took another person's crest.  So this is  43 very firm in our laws even today, that we -- no one  44 will use another Chief's crest.  That's their title  45 for that.  46 MR. GRANT:  Madam interpreter, maybe spell the name of that last  47 crest that the witness gave. 229  1  THE  TRANS  2  3  A  4  5  THE  TRANS  6  MR.  GRANT  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  THE  COURT  21  A  22  THE  COURT  23  A  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  GRANT  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  but I want to make sure  Did the witness say  LATOR:  Apostrophe N-i-i-t-s-a-b-i-m L-a-x, underlined,  g, underlined a-n.  In our Gitksan word for crest is ayuuks, the word in  the Gitksan for crest, ayuuks.  LATOR:  A-y-u-u-k-s.  You were describing how Suuwiigos saw these shadows  and then you explained how he took the shadows as the  crest for your House, and you were saying how he went  back to Kuutkunuxws and the other people.  Do you want  to proceed?  I think I'll just leave it at that, because what is  done would go under a different title, like my  generation or something like that, and just leave it  as it is right now.  : Well, Mr. Grant, I'm sorry,  that I didn't miss something,  there was a battle.  :  After the shadows were seen.  :  Yes?  Yes.  :  Did she say that?  There was a battle.  :  All right.  Thank you.  Now, you've described how Kuutkunuxws -- Kuutkunuxws  was at that with Suuwiigos.  Do you recall, were there  other Chiefs of other Houses from Gitan gasx that were  with Suuwiigos in these battles, referring  particularly to this last one that you described?  Will you rephrase that again to me, please.  I was  thinking of other things, and I was cut -- I cut  myself short on one part there.  Okay.  Well, did I interrupt you on an answer?  The third battle that Kuutkunuxws and Suuwiigos went  through was about a grizzly bear that they had shot.  Um-hum?  It was a bear, it was just a bear.  Now, this was  again how they got their crest of the split bear,  Kuutkunuxws took one side, Suuwiigos took the other.  Now, this is our crest of the half -- half of the bear  belonged to Gyoluugyat.  And that's the third crest  that Suuwiigos --  And half of the bear belongs to?  To Kuutkunuxws, yeah.  And that is the same?  Yes. 230  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  Is this an appropriate place to maybe stop, if we're  not in the middle?  Yes.  Maybe we can take the morning adjournment.  Well, all right, yes.  We started early.  We started early.  Yes, all right.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court is adjourned for 15  minutes minutes.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:00)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability  Graham D. Parker  Official Reporter  United Reporting Services Ltd.  231 1  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  Q  8  9  0  A  1  2  MR.  GOLDI  231  (Proceedings resumed following short recess)  MARY McKENZIE, Resumed:  :  Mr. Grant?  Before you proceed, I just wanted to ask you if you  can recall if there were chiefs of other Houses  involved in the Suuwiigos wars?  Yes.  There is the house of 'Nii Kyap, Gwina nitxw,  'Wii Kaax, Luus.  Those are the four that I have.  C:  Excuse me, can we get the spellings?  13 THE COURT:  Would you give them to us again?  14 A   'Nii Kaax, Gwina nitxw, 'Wii Kaax and Luus.  15 THE TRANSLATOR: 'N-i-i, k-a-a-x; G-w-i-n-a, n-i-t-x-w; 'W-i-i,  16 k-a-a-x, and Luus.  17 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Can you tell me who holds those names today, if  anybody?  Today?  'Nii Kyap is held name of David Gunanoot, and  Gwina nitxw is Solomon Jack, 'Wii Kaax, Neil Sterritt  senior, Luus is Jeff Harris senior.  Were those chiefs, did those chiefs live at Gitangasx  as well at this time?  Yes, at that time, yes.  Can any other chief or the chief of any other House  give the Suuwiigos Adaawk besides Gyoluugyat?  Yes.  Gwina nitxw, 'Wii Kaax and Luus would be the  only people that would tell the Adaawk of Gyoluugyat,  because they are involved in the battle they had,  Suuwiigos had.  Is there a person that holds the name Suuwiigos today?  Yes.  Who is that?  Harry Brown.  Is that Violet Brown's --  That's Violet Brown's son.  Is he in your House?  Yes.  Before the break you said that you would be going into  another part of the history, you referred to  migrations, could you proceed and tell the court what  happened after these battles?  Suuwiigos left Gitangasx and he travelled down the  river of a fishing place.  They stayed there for a  while then he went about and he chose the area where  18 MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  47 232  1 he think that there would be food there for his  2 people, that there would be forest there to do their  3 trapping and their hunting, so this is when Kuldo'o,  4 the village of Kuldo'o started, old Kuldo'o.   When he  5 found this Kuldo'o -- I am getting ahead of myself,  6 getting excited here -- I am travelling fast.  7 Q   Slow down in your travels.  8 A   The chiefs that I named, like 'Nii Kyap, Gwina nitxw,  9 'Wii Kaax and Luus they left Gitangasx, because the  10 Suuwiigos found this village, they called it Old  11 Kuldo'o.  Now these chiefs had a choice, if they  12 wanted to go with Gyoluugyat of Kuldo'o they could; if  13 they wanted to go to other village, that could be  14 done.  Now, Gwina nitxw, 'Nii Kyap and 'Wii Kaax were  15 the chiefs that went to Giskaast.  16 Q   You said Gwina nitxw, 'Nii Kyap --  17 A  And 'Wii Kaax.  Then Madiik, Gwamoon, Hlo'oxs and Luus  18 they went to Kuldo'o.  19 Q   Now, I want the court to understand that these are all  20 of the Lax Gibuu, now there will be other plaintiffs  21 who will refer on the Frog Clan and the Fireweed Clan,  22 but I am just referring of the chiefs of the Lax Gibuu  23 that moved down from Giskaast.   So there were chiefs  24 of both the Frog and Fireweed who also moved?  25 A   Yes.  2 6 Q   Go ahead.  27 A  When these Houses were erected at Kuldo'o -- now I  28 don't know how many years they were there.  They lived  29 there, they had the village, and for a shortage of  30 probably food or the forest, there was -- you have to  31 have a certain kind of trees for your firewood.  Now,  32 somehow they one by one these chiefs would leave  33 Kuldo'o.  Now most of the chiefs went to Kispiox, they  34 preferred going to Kispiox and not only the Lax Gibuu,  35 it's the Frog Clan and the Fireweed Clan.  They moved  36 into Kispiox.  There again, by moving, the chiefs  37 moving into another village, there has to be a special  38 feasting.  They have to approach the chiefs of Kispiox  39 and they have to put a feast on to ask the permission  40 of the chiefs of Kispiox that they move into Kispiox.  41 Now this is the kind of feasting that were held, each  42 House or each clan had to put a feasting for the  43 Kispiox chiefs to give permission to us to move down  44 to Kispiox.  So, Hlo'oxs and Gyoluugyat's House were  45 the last two Houses that were left and --  46 Q   Where?  47 A  At Kuldo'o.  Now, a few of our elders in this 233  1 courtroom have seen those Houses.  They were very old  2 and they wrote it down and I was told about it.  Now,  3 this is why the -- in a Feasting House, they gave, my  4 people gave a feasting to enter into Kispiox.  Now,  5 Kispiox people, the chief, selected that they give us  6 a table, a place in a Feasting House for us.  Now this  7 is why we have our table in Kispiox and it's called  8 the Kuldo'o people's table and this is where we sit on  9 this table when there is a Feasting of the Giskaast  10 and the Frog.  11 Q   Could I interject to move you back a bit?  When you  12 were talking about the people moving down to Kuldo'o  13 and Giskaast from Gitangasx, you referred to 'Nii Kyap  14 and 'Wii Kaax who went to Gisagas and Suuwiigos and  15 Gyoluugyat went to Kuldo'o; can you tell us were there  16 other chiefs of the Lax Gibuu that went from Gitangasx  17 to Kuldo'o?  18 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me, is this still part of the Adaawk?  19 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  20 Q   Is this the history of the people moving from  21 Gitangasx to Kuldo'o, that is part of the Adaawk that  22 you would tell?  23 A   It has to be part of the Adaawk.  You can't leave it  24 out, because there would be no Adaawk about it.  It  25 has to go in the Adaawk.  26 Q   Can you tell me were there other Wolf chiefs that  27 moved down from Gitangasx to Kuldo'o after Suuwiigos  28 and Gyoluugyat?  2 9 A   Luus moved down, like I said, and Madiik and Gwamoon.  30 Now, these are not the only :ax Gonii people who moved  31 down, the other plaintiffs that will take the stand  32 will have to answer because I have got no authority of  33 different Houses, I am speaking of my own, Gyoluugyat.  34 Q   And you are speaking of your wil'naa't'ahl as well?  35 A   Yes, that's what I am speaking for.  36 Q   Was there a name for Kuldo'o in Gitksan?  37 A   It's Kuldo'o.  It's the Indian name, Kuldo'o.  It  38 means out in the wilderness.  39 Q   This movement of the people from Gitangasx to Kuldo'o,  40 did this happen before the arrival of the Europeans?  41 A   Long before.  42 Q   Are we talking in this case of hundreds of years ago  43 from now or are we talking of thousands of years ago?  44 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, is that kind of chronology part of the  4 5 Adaawk?  4 6 MR. GRANT:  47 Q   Yes, if you can tell that from the Adaawk, does the 234  1  2  A  3  MR.  GOLDI  4  MR.  GRANT  5  A  6  THE  COURT  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  A  10  THE  COURT  11  12  A  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  THE  COURT  24  A  25  MR.  GRANT  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  THE  COURT  31  32  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  MR.  GOLDI  46  47  Adaawk describe when it occurred in relation to now?  Yes.  E:  In terms of --  :  In terms of now.  It would be hundreds of years ago.  :  That's part of the Adaawk, is it?  Yes.  :  That it is hundreds of years ago?  Yes.  Well, I could say a thousand years.  :  Or you could say a thousand years or you could say  thousands of years?  Thousands of years.  :  All right.  Now, I interjected and you were describing the  movement of the -- of Gyoluugyat from Kuldo'o to  Kispiox, you had indicated that other chiefs had moved  from Kuldo'o to Kispiox as well.  Could you give the  names of some of those other chiefs and what clan they  were in that moved from Kuldo'o to Kispiox?  Now, I could only say that the Frog Clan moved down  and --  :  I am sorry, the Frog Clan moved?  Yes.  And the Fireweed, Giskaast people.  Were there other Wolf chiefs that moved down before  Gyoluugyat moved down from Gisagas to Kuldo'o?  Yes.  Can you name those chiefs of your clan?  :  I am sorry, Mr. Grant, I am at, in my notes, talking  about movement of the Gyoluugyat from -- to Kispiox  and she said that as well the Frog Clan and the  Fireweed people.  Are you now going back and asking  about movement to Kuldo'o?  :  No, I am asking movement from Kuldo'o to Kispiox.  She has described that Fireweed Clan people and Frog  Clan people moved to Kispiox as well and she described  that Gyoluugyat moved down.  I am asking if there are other -- and Gyoluugyat is in  the Wolf Clan.  I am asking if there were other chiefs  of the Wolf Clan that moved to Kispiox?  Yes.  Besides Gyoluugyat?  Yes.  E:  Excuse me, before you go any further, Mrs.  McKenzie.  My lord, if the process of establishing the Adaawk 235  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  GRANT  Q  A  Q  as having something which merits a special status is  to have validity, I think, with respect, that my  friend simply ought to say what does the Adaawk say  about this and what does the Adaawk say about that.  Otherwise, it is difficult to distinguish between what  is a story, and the witness made a distinction on that  yesterday, and what is part of the Adaawk.  And I  would ask my friend to exhaust Mrs. McKenzie's memory,  which is very good, as to what the Adaawk actually  says, rather than asking questions which don't enable  us to distinguish the source of the information.  THE COURT:  Well, that would be a convenient way to proceed, Mr.  Grant.  I don't think that I should tell counsel how  they must ask questions.  It would certainly be  convenient because it would let us know whether we are  receiving Adaawk-type evidence or other type evidence.  Maybe I will start by saying:  Because you moved into two migrations, one I think  Gisagas to Kuldo'o and then from Kuldo'o to Kispiox,  you described that, the migration of Gisagas to  Kuldo'o, as part of the Adaawk?  Yes.  The history of the migration from Kuldo'o to Kispiox,  is that part of the Adaawk?  A   Yes.  Q   Then I would ask you, does the Adaawk say what other  chiefs of the Wolf Clan moved to Kispiox from Kuldo'o?  GOLDIE:  Well, couldn't we just have her tell us what the  Adaawk says about the migration?  GRANT:  Mr. Goldie, if you let me -- let her answer.  Sorry,  my lord.  Q   Just proceed.  And you understand what I am referring  to?  A   Yes.  Q   Go ahead.  A  Well, with the interruption, would you rephrase your  question?  Q   I asked whether the Adaawk refers to other chiefs of  the Wolf Clan who moved from Kuldo'o to Kispiox?  And  then you can just proceed with that, the history of  that movement from Kuldo'o to Kispiox.  A   Like I said, that every House of a chief has their own  Adaawk.  Now what I am expressing now is the Adaawk of  how Suuwiigos lived in Gitangasx, how he fought these  battles, that's the Adaawk, and how the movement of  the other chiefs, when Kuldo'o was founded.  This is  in the Adaawk.  Without saying how the movement of the 236  1 people, it has to go down and an Adaawk, it's not just  2 a story.  Adaawk in Gitksan language is a powerful  3 word of describing what the House stands for, what the  4 chief stands for, what the territory stands for is the  5 Adaawk.  It's not a story, it's just how people  6 travelled is the Adaawk.  And it's the most important  7 thing in Gitksan is to have an Adaawk.  Without Adaawk  8 you can't very well say you are a chief or you own a  9 territory.  Without the Adaawk, it has to come first,  10 the Adaawk, names come after, songs come after, crests  11 come after it and the territory that's held, fishing  12 places, all those come into one and that's the Adaawk.  13 It's not a story, it's Adaawk to the Gitksan people.  14 Q   Can you proceed with the -- what you were describing  15 about the migration from Kuldo'o to Kispiox and just  16 because there has been so many interruptions, my note  17 was that you were describing how Gyoluugyat had to  18 meet and feast with the Kispiox chiefs to move there.  19 That's where we left off.  Just go ahead.  20 A   Yes.  Well, this feasting was on the Kispiox had  21 accepted the Gyoluugyat and the other four Houses, to  22 move down to Kispiox.  And this is when Gyoluugyat  23 built his Longhouse in Kispiox and we were accepted  24 into the village of Kispiox.  That's when Hlo'oxs  25 erected the House and Madiik and Gwamoon, they erected  26 the House in Kispiox.  27 Q   This is at the time when they were separate Houses?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Is that what you have been describing to us now, is  30 that a summation of the Adaawk of Gyoluugyat?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Is there anything further you would like to say from  33 the Adaawk right now?  34 A   I think I have tried to illustrate what all goes into  35 Adaawk and what it means to the Gitksan people.  The  36 Adaawk is the most important.  Today, these Adaawks  37 are told, like the Gitksan people didn't write  38 anything, it was all oral, from one generation to  39 another.  But today these Adaawks will go because our  40 young people have educated themselves to write these  41 and we have our language, our own alphabets that they  42 can put it down on paper now.  So that these Adaawks,  43 as long as it's on paper, black and white, it will  44 never diminish at all.  It will still be there, like  45 it has been before.  It goes around like a windmill,  46 it goes around and that's how our Adaawks are.  It  47 goes from one generation to another and no one changes 237  1  2  3  4 THE COURT  5  6 A  7 MR. GRANT  8 THE COURT  9 MR. GRANT  10 THE COURT  11  12 MR. GRANT  13  14  15 THE  16  17 MR.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31       Q  32  33  34  35  36  37       A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  it. In the Adaawk, no one changes it. Like the law  of the country we live on today, it's called Canada,  our Province is B. C, laws are made --  Mrs. McKenzie, we are getting beyond the realm of  evidence.  I am trying to put this --  I think —  This is not evidence, Mr. Grant.  She is trying to -- let her explain what Adaawk is.  I understand all that but I think you really have to  get on with some evidence.  We had all this yesterday.  I would ask leave of the court to allow her to  finish the  sentence she is finishing and then proceed  with the evidence.  If you want to make an issue of it, I think we ought  to get on with some evidence.  I will proceed.  What you have been describing is the Adaawk and you  have completed your summation of the Adaawk?  Yes.  And what the court has referred to is the fact that we  have described what the Adaawk was and you have  explained, I am asking you have you explained to the  court, through what you said yesterday and today, what  the Adaawk is and what it means to the Gitksan?  Yes.  But right now I am trying to point out that our  Adaawks never change from when our people thousands of  years ago or hundreds of years ago, they set this up  for us and it's never changed.  And I don't think it  will ever change.  You described the beginning, before you started to  tell your Adaawk, that this Adaawk has been told in  the Feast, could you tell the court now when, in the  Gitksan Feast process, are Adaawks told?  In other  words, at what kinds of Feasts and why are they told  and to whom are they told?  In a feasting of a burial of a chief, these Adaawks  are not told deeply, it's just a changing of a  successor is a burial Feast.  But when a totem pole is  erected, that's when these Adaawks come out of, of the  erection of a totem pole, our crests are carved on  these totem poles and they, these questions tell the  Adaawk of the family and erecting of a totem pole, the  chiefs all gather at an erection, the chief tells,  illustrates or tells the story of the Adaawk of these  crests.  Now, there is a pause there somewhere, if one  person thinks that one crest is not supposed to be on 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  3 8 MR.  GRANT  39  40  41  42 THE  COURT  43  A  44 THE  COURT  4 5 MR.  GRANT  46  Q  47  238  that totem pole, they say it right then.  So, if  everything, all the crests are on there, everybody  says, it's all right, that's when these chiefs come  with their speeches, putting the power and the  blessing on this totem pole, of the Adaawk that this  totem pole represents.  This is the kinds of feasting.  And this is done in a feasting House where the chiefs  give their blessing and their power to the chief that  erects the totem pole.  And would these include the chiefs of the Lax See'l or  Frog and the chiefs of the Giskaast as well as the Lax  Gibuu?  Yes, all the chiefs of the three clans.  How often has this occurred with respect to  Gyoluugyat's House in, let us put a time perspective  on it, in your lifetime?   How often would the Adaawk  have been told in the feasts, the Gyoluugyat Adaawk  have been told in the feasts?  Whenever there is, like I said, whenever there is a  totem pole raising or a headstone raising, these  Adaawks come out and these, everything goes, is  repeated in the Feasting House where names are from  and how these names were collected, how these crests  were found.  And you referred yesterday that your House had a totem  pole raising some years ago; is that right?  Yes.  When was that?  1949.  And you referred to the deaths of some chiefs, such as  the former Gwamoon, Peter Robinson, were there  headstone raisings for those chiefs?  Yes.  And was the Adaawk told at those headstone raisings?  Yes, like I said, every time a totem pole is raised,  every time a headstone is raised, the Adaawks are  repeatedly told in a Feasting House.  :  My lord, I would like to move into a new area and  it's been partially covered by the witness's  description of the Adaawk but it's the area of the  crest.  :  Do we have a date for Peter Robinson's death?  1935.  :  All right.  Thank you.  Now, you have described the crest of the man that  lives in the tree and that's one of the crests of 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  239  Gyoluugyat's House?  Yes.  You described the crest of the half grizzly, that's  one of the crests of Gyoluugyat's House?  Yes.  You have described the Crests of the Shadows, I  believe, the shadows from the tree?  Yes, reflection in the lake.  That's one of Gyoluugyat's crests?  Yes.  Does Gyoluugyat have a blanket today or have you seen  a blanket of Gyoluugyat?  I have an old one that has the figures of the people  of the 'Niitsabim Lax gan.  That is the people in the trees; is that right?  Yes.  Did you see a crest on the headstone of Nicodemus  Gyoluugyat?  Yes, it's right in the village of Gisagas, and that  was erected, I am not sure of the year, but I have  seen the headstone and on top of that headstone was a  figure of a human being with a bow and arrow, and that  represents Suuwiigos, so when we use our Nax nok,  that's when we have this bow and arrow.  If I went with you to that graveyard today, would I  see that crest?  No, you won't.  What happened?  Because it was taken off, it was stolen.  You referred earlier to your braclets and you referred  I believe to the crest of your clan, the wolf, you  referred to the grizzly, which you have described?  Yes.  You also referred to the ram?  Yes.  Could you tell the court why you have that crest or is  that a crest of Gyoluugyat?  Yes, it is a crest of Gyoluugyat.  It's called Dibe,  we call it the ram Dibe.  And 'Wii Kaax went goat  hunting in the ram and he spent overnight in the peaks  of the mountain but he managed to come down without no  one's aid and this is why he has the crest of the ram.  I would like to refer you to tab eight of the exhibit,  and the second page there.  Now, this is a photograph  or a photocopy of a photograph out of the book of  Barbeau's book on totem poles of the Gitksan.  And I  just wanted to know if you could recognize -- I am 240  1  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GRANT  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  THE  TRANS  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  A  27  THE  COURT  28  29  A  30  31  THE  COURT  32  A  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  37  A  38  39  MR.  GRANT  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  referring particularly to the one that's numbered  three underneath it, it's the biggest, it's the second  from the --  :  Number three.  :  Yes, number three.  Do you recognize that?  Yes.  Can you explain to the court what that is?  This is the totem pole of Gyoluugyat and the grizzly,  the grizzly bear has our crest, the figure on top is  the 'Nii Gyadim Lax ganit.  That's our crest.  Is that the half grizzly or the grizzly that was made  into the hide?  The grizzly made into the hide.  :  What's the figure on top, please?  :  Do you want to spell that word?  LATOR:  'N-i-i, g-y-a-d-i-m, l-a-x, g-a-n-i-t.  Just to refresh us, which of the crests of the history  you have told us is that, is that the crest of the  people in the trees?  Yes.  It could be both.  Gyadim and and the grizzly is  the one that Suuwiigos wore.  :  You said it could be, it was the people in the trees  or it could be what?  The man in the trees.  :  I thought you were suggesting it might be two  different things?  Yes, in Gitksan it represents two, either one.  But on  that it's 'Niitsabim.  :  What are the two, please?  The other 'Nii Gyadim Lax ganit, is the figure on the  ground, that's the 'Nii Gyadim Lax ganit.  The other  the reflection in the lakes is 'Niitsabim.  :  It could be the people in the trees or the or the  figure on the ground?  The 'Nii Gyadim Lax ganit is the man of the tree and  'Niisabim Lax gan.  Is what you are saying you could have a crest on your  pole of the people in the trees as well so you could  have both?  Yes.  That's the figure we have on our totem pole  that's in Kispiox today.  Is this the pole that was raised had in 1949?  Yes.  That is what I was going to ask you about, what are 241  A  MR. GRANT  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17 THE  18  19 MR.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36 THE  A  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  the crests on that pole?  We didn't put too many crests on that pole when it was  erected, but we did put the people in the trees, 'Nii  Gyadim Lax ganit at the bottom.  :  My lord, the area I would like to move into now is  an area, fairly extensive area, of this witness's  evidence, the area of the feasts.  Now, I would like you to explain when you learned of  the feasts and how you learned about the process of  the feasts and the seating of the feasts.  May I say to you that this is quite a lengthy thing  for me to explain and seeing the clock's hands go  round and round, would it be better if I take it up  the afternoon?  Would you like to take a break now?  Yes.  :  All right.  We will adjourn, then, and is it  convenient to come back, say, at 1:30?  :  Yes, my lord.  at  (Proceedings Adjourned at 12:05 p.m.)  h2  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Wilf Roy  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.  Mary McKenzie (for Plaintiffs)  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 1:30)  37  3 8 THE COURT  39  40  41  42  4 3 MR  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Witness, I remind you, you are  still under oath.  Can I have one matter straightened out before we go  on.  I have two words, and it may be my writing, but  44  45 THE  4 6 MR.  47 THE  A-y-o-o-k, I have that as being law.  And I have  A-y-u-u-k-s as being crests.  Is that correct?  A   He means Ayuuks.  GRANT:  He's referring to Ayuuks and Ayook.  A   They're two separate words.  COURT:  They're spelled as I have stated?  GRANT:  Yes.  Is that correct, Madam Translator?  TRANSLATOR:  Mm-hmm. 1 MR.  GRANT  2 THE  COURT  3  4 MR.  GRANT  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  242  :  Yes.  :  I was afraid my writing had led me into two meanings  for one word.  Gyoluugyat, I would like to ask you now about the  Feasts, and I would like you to tell the court when  you started attending Feasts and how you learned about  the process of the Feasts?  Before I attended any Feasting my grandmother had to  give a little Feasting to a head Chief of the Kispiox.  There he asked and told the head Chiefs that I've come  to a time when I should know the rules in the Feasting  House and all the Chiefs' names and how they're to be  seated in the Feast House.  This I had to learn by  attending each Feasting, and the Chiefs agreed, so I  went with my grandmother, and I was just eight years  old then, and at that time I wasn't given a seat or  anything, I had to sit on the floor alongside of her.  And what did she teach you about what you could and  could not do at the Feast while you were a child?  No children were allowed in a Feasting, so this is why  they had to give a Feasting for me, so the chief would  allow me, and when they gave their permission I went  with her, and of course there was -- no one had to  keep bobbing up and down amongst the head Chiefs and  to talk out loudly, but to just sit and watch every  movement of what takes place in a Feasting House.  All  the names, when the Chiefs entered the Feasting House,  there's a person at the door that calls the names of  the Chief that's entering, and then there are the  seaters.  They would have three or four, and with them  they would have what we call the talking stick, and  this is when the name is called out the person decides  where that Chief sits, knocks on the floor with the  talking stick as the Chief walks to his seat in a  Feasting House.  Now, this is the very respect, and  the Chief alone has to watch, listen to what is going  on in the Feasting House.  You have to be very careful  of how you enter and how you sit on a chair provided  for you.  There are different kinds of Feasts, I understand from  what you've already said; is that right?  Yes.  There's a whole lot of different types of  Feastings.  Would what you've just described apply to all of those  Feasts?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  243  Okay.  Can you describe for the court some of the  types of Feasts that are held by the Gitksan?  Starting from a child is born they're given the name,  and a piercing of ears and puberty, and then a second  name is given to a child.  When they reach the age of  adult there's a name given for this person, and if he  or she is in line of becoming a Chief a name is given  to that person, and it shows in the Feasting House  just who are the people that are in line of becoming a  Chief by doing -- giving a Feasting and given an extra  name of this person, and of course in the Feasting  House this person will sit in front of the head Chief.  This is the old seating of the Feasting House.  They  didn't use tables at that time, all seated around the  Feast House.  And did you instruct me or my assistants as to how  this old seating was of Gyoluugyat's House?  Yes.  I would like to refer the witness to the first page of  tab 3 of Exhibit 2.  I would ask you if you recognize  that as a visual description of what you informed me?  Yes.  You don't hold it this way, you set it this way.  It would be on the side of the building this way.  So you're actually referring, you would look at it  with the binding to the top?  Yes.  Is how you would look at it?  Yes.  Well, could you explain this seating and what it  represents for the court?  Where it's marked X there in front of Gyoluugyat we  have the name Hak', and that's held by my grandson,  Kenny McKenzie, and in front of Hak' is Dibe, is my  brother who holds that name.  Now, this shows that  when I die this person moves up and takes the  Gyoluugyat, and this person down here moves up, so we  select another person to take the name of that Nax nok  that is seated around the fireplace here.  Now, you've referred to -- just for the record to be  clear, you've referred to one person moves up.  Who  would move up into Gyoluugyat's seat?  Hak' would.  He would take the Gyoluugyat.  And who would move into Hak's seat?  Dibe.  And then that gives the vacant seat down here,  so the family has to choose a person to be put in  there to hold a Nax nok name.  Now, beside Dibe I note there's the name Suuwiigos? 244  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35 MR.  GRANT  36 THE  COURT  37  A  38 THE  COURT  39  A  40  41 MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  Yes.  Harry Brown.  Is that the name of the warrior you were  describing this morning?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, could you describe the relationship of  these people beside you on both sides of Gyoluugyat?  Those are my wil 'naa t'ahl.  Okay.  Now, is the -- in this chart here are there --  are these lines that are drawn, are those tables?  No.  They're the seat.  They use benches at the time  to make them all go around.  Okay.  And you indicated you would look at this with  the binding to the top.  What is behind you, what  would be at the top of the page?  Is that the wall or  are there other --  The wall, yes.  Where were the Feasts at which this seating was used  by Gyoluugyat?  In the old Feasting House or the Chiefs' Houses in the  village.  In which village?  Yeah.  In Kispiox and Giitan maaxs.  Now, could you proceed to tell the other types of  Feasts that there are?  Besides what I have repeated this morning, the types  of Feasts that were held?  Um-hum?  Like the marriage?  Yes?  The divorce.  Yes?  The adoption.  Yes?  The shame Feast.  :  Yes.  :  I'm sorry?  Shame, S-h-a-m-e.  :  Yes?  There's the, what we say in Gitksan word, the coming  back in.  That's -- you need a --  Could you say it again?  What this means, I'll try and express to you what this  coming back in means.  There would be one Chief that  would not attend a Feasting for some time, and the  reason for that is for the family to know themselves,  and he doesn't enter, he doesn't sit, and his seat is 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  245  empty, yet the food is put in that, so --  Put in his place, you mean?  In his place.  Um-hum?  So when the Chief decides that he wants to go back,  maybe the problem was solved amongst themselves or to  another Chief, he decides to come back into the  Feasting House, so he puts on a Feast and he tells the  people that he's going to be seated at his place  again, so this is how it's done by some Chiefs that  don't attend a Feasting for some time.  That's another  Feast there.  Is there a Gitksan word for that type of Feast?  I'm sorry.  That name just won't come into my mind  now.  Okay.  Maybe if I went on a little I'll remember.  Go ahead, just go ahead with other kinds of Feasts?  When -- of course when there's a totem pole raising  and the head stone, and the drying of the pole is  another Feasting.  Drying of the pole?  Yes.  Could I ask you, is the pole raising and the head  stone Feast, are those two different types of Feasts,  or are they one type of Feast?  It's one type only.  Some Chiefs prefer raising the  totem pole, others they have on the head stone.  Okay.  And you've already, I believe, described to us  the burial Feast?  Yes.  You've referred to that?  Yes.  Is there -- and that's different than the head stone  or pole raising Feast?  Yes.  That's the transfer of the name at the burial  Feast.  When a Chief dies, between the time of his death and  the burial Feast are there any other kinds of Feasts?  In other words, between the time the person dies and  the night of the burial Feast, is there any Feasts?  There are only a few head Chiefs that lived long  enough.  Like they've taken a Chief name and been a  Chief for many many years, and in his time, whatever  happens into his House, he has to have a Feast.  This  is the -- to have the witnesses there to prove that  this is happening into the family.  Now, when a Chief 246  1 is far in years and there's only very few people,  2 Chiefs, would reach the age that they have to put  3 another Feasting on, and that's called the drying of  4 the totem pole.  We call that in Gitksan Gwalgwa.  5 THE TRANSLATOR:  Gwalgwa is spelled G-w-a-1-g-w-a.  6 MR. GRANT:  7 Q   Proceed?  8 A   This is similar to a retirement thing of the Chief.  9 He doesn't retire, but he's reached that stage.  10 Q   Does he retain -- would the Chief retain his name  11 after this Gwalgwa Feast?  12 A   Yes, still does.  13 Q   Okay.  Can you recall any other types of Feasts?  If  14 you wish, I'll ask you about some other events?  15 A   Yes, all right.  I've forgotten how many I've said  16 already.  17 Q   Yes, right.  I know, you've said quite a few.  When  18 you referred to the Gwalgwa, I was asking you about a  19 different type of event.  If a Chief dies is the  20 burial Feast held before or after he is buried?  21 A  Will you phrase that again, please?  22 Q   Okay.  When a Chief dies is the burial Feast held  23 after the funeral when he is buried?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Okay.  Between the time of his death and his burial is  26 there any other Feasts that are held by the Chiefs?  27 A   Of the successor of that Chief you mean?  28 Q   Yes.  Between the day he dies and his actual burial at  29 the burial Feast is there any other Feast that is  30 held?  31 A   Not until a totem pole is raised by the new Chief.  32 Q   How long is the process ceremonies, how long do the  33 Gitksan usually wait before the person -- between a  34 person's death and the burial?  Is there a number of  35 days, or is he buried immediately?  36 A   No.  There are ceremonies that take place.  37 Q   Um-hum?  38 A  And that's where all Chiefs get together and they  39 have -- they come with their regalias on and they sing  40 there dirge song, that's there mourning song that each  41 Chief has.  42 Q   The dirge song?  43 A   Yes, um-hum.  They have this, and they -- when they  44 speak they speak to the dead person, that's in Gitksan  45 law.  We don't speak to the new Chief yet, but we talk  46 to the late Chief.  We -- we put out what all he has  47 done in his lifetime, we have to repeat the adaawk. 247  1 This is when the adaawk comes in again, that all his  2 lifetime what Feast he's put on and everything, this  3 is said at this gathering of just Chiefs alone.  4 Q   And does this occur before the funeral?  5 A   Yes, it does.  6 Q   Is this -- you called this a ceremony.  Would this be  7 a Feast, or is it something else?  8 A   It's a ceremony where singing is taking place.  9 Q   Um-hum.  10 A  All -- like I said, the Chiefs come out with their  11 regalias, and adaawk of the Chief is said by several  12 Chiefs until it's all in one adaawk.  13 Q   Okay.  If a Chief is injured, is hit for example, is  14 there a Feast for that process?  15 A   There is.  16 Q   What is it called?  17 A   In English we call that the Shame Feast, but there are  18 different types of Feast when a Chief is hurt or  19 shamed, embarrassed.  If, like in just recent times I  20 have three, just to tell the court that this is still  21 continuing, what happened years ago, and it's still  22 continuing today.  While fishing last year down at the  23 coast one of the Chiefs fell in the ocean.  He was  24 taken out.  Now, when he returned to Kispiox he put a  25 Feast on, and we called it Gil k'al gimks, to wipe off  26 the ocean from him.  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  Gil k'al gimks, G-i-1 k-a-1 g-i-m-k-s.  2 8 MR. GRANT:  29 Q   Go ahead?  30 A   In the village of Kispiox a lady Chief was injured in  31 the streets of Kispiox.  When she recovered she put on  32 a Feasting.  It took her two or three years before she  33 recovered from that injury.  She put on a Feast just  34 last winter to wipe her blood off the street.  It's  35 called Sa gimk ihlee'e.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  Sa gimk ihlee'e, S-a g-i-m-k i-h-1-e-e-'-e.  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q   What -- could you describe to the court what the  39 injury was?  You said it was something that happened  40 in Kispiox to this woman Chief?  41 A   This lady Chief was knocked down by a vehicle, and she  42 was injured very very much.  She had to be in  43 Vancouver hospital about a year.  She lost her speech.  44 Q   You said you had three examples of this?  45 A  Another example is when a person is embarrassed by  46 another group, like last summer in the City of  47 Smithers a lady Chief again was embarrassed.  Her case 248  1 came up as theft at that time, so after the court was  2 finished she put on a Feasting to wipe off that  3 embarrassment, and that word theft, that she steals  4 something, that's no longer to be remembered towards  5 her when she put this Feast on.  6 Q   Can you give the names of these three Chiefs that were  7 involved?  8 A   The first one was Gitluudahlxw, Pete Muldoe of  9 Kispiox.  10 Q   He's one of the plaintiffs in this trial?  11 A   He's one of the Plaintiffs.  The second one is Edith  12 Gawa from Kispiox.  Yahl is her name.  And the third  13 one is Mabel Forsythe.  Now, I don't remember her  14 Chief name.  15 MR. GRANT: Madam Interpreter, could you spell those first two  16 Chief names.  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  Gitluudahlxw, G-i-t-1-u-u-d-a-h-l-x-w, Yahl,  18 Y-a-h-1.  19 MR. GRANT:  20 Q   Is there any ceremony when a young Gitksan person has  21 there first kill?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Could you tell the court what happens then?  24 A  When a young man in their teens, they go out hunting.  25 Now, this young boy will have to go with his father or  26 his his wilxsi witxw, and his first kill, first moose  27 he's killed, his deer, he has to bring that back to  28 the village and that, whatever it is, a moose, has to  29 be given out.  The family doesn't take the meat  30 itself, it has to be given to the wilxsi bagxws first  31 until every House has a very small portion of that  32 first kill, and a Feast is given to honour that young  33 person of his first kill.  34 Q   Does this still happen today?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Do you know of any examples of it happening?  37 A   Niis Gimi Nuu's son, I forgot which it is.  Is it  38 Clifford or Vincent, I think it is, had his first  39 kill, and the gifts were given to the relatives of his  40 father from his first kill.  41 MR. GRANT:  Can you spell that Chief's name.  42 THE TRANSLATOR:  N-i-i-s G-i-m-i N-u-u.  43 THE COURT:  Is that the young boy's name or his father's name.  44 THE TRANSLATOR:  The father.  45 A The father's name.  4 6 THE COURT: Okay, thank you.  4 7 MR. GRANT: 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  249  And when did that happen.  You said --  It's about a year ago.  You've described these wars in your adaawk of  Suuwiigos.  Did the Gitksan have any Feasts at the  time they would go to war?  To my knowledge they didn't.  Maybe some of the later  Plaintiffs may be asked that question, but to my  8 knowledge I've never heard of one.  9 Q   What about if there's a settlement of peace between  10 the Gitksan and another group, is there a Feast  11 ceremony for that?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And what is that called in Gitksan, or in English, if  14 you want to explain it that way?  15 A   I can't find a name for peace in my language right  16 away.  But when this Feast is -- I'll give the court  17 an explanation of this Feast.  When this Feast of  18 peace is put on, this is when Eagle down is used Mix  19 Kaax is used.  20 MR. GRANT:  Would you would spell that, please.  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  Mix Kaax, M-i-x K-a-a-x.  22 MR. GRANT:  2 3       Q   Um-hum.  24 A  After things are settled there would be quite a bit of  25 argument, of course, but when both sides agree, and  26 then the both parties have a young nephew to make a  27 dance for the parties.  They put on their regalias,  28 they have their head dress on, and in that top of that  29 head dress are the Eagle down they've filled up with  30 Eagle down, and these dancers, these nephews of young  31 Chiefs, they have -- each one has their song of one  32 side.  This person does the dance with the flowing of  33 the Eagle down to the people.  That means peace, and  34 the same way with the other, so Eagle down is very  35 important to us.  When -- if you don't enter into a  36 Feasting House, a Chief doesn't enter right away,  37 words keep going to that Chief and he's still not  38 there.  That's when Eagle down is used again.  They  39 take the Eagle down and take it to this Chief.  They  40 put it on him.  He can't say no, and he can't say he  41 can't come, because that Eagle down is put on his  42 head.  He has to come, as the importance of the Eagle  43 down is peace.  44 Q   This second example you gave of when a Chief doesn't  45 come into the Feast, that would be not a peace Feast,  46 that's another use of the Eagle down?  47 A   Yes.  Another use. 250  1 Q   Yesterday you spoke to us about Gwamoon and that  2 Gwamoon could move out and set up her own House, and  3 you would describe that she would raise a pole.  4 Before raising the pole would Gwamoon have to have a  5 Feast if she made that decision to move out of your  6 House?  7 A   Yes.  When a pole is to be erected there is a lot of  8 different little ceremonies in between that.  The  9 cutting of the pole first, there's a ceremony just for  10 the village people when that pole is cut.  Then it's  11 taken into the village to be carved, and before that  12 pole is carved there's a little ceremony again.  Songs  13 are sung by the head Chiefs, gifts are given out, very  14 small gifts are given out indicating that chips that  15 came off that pole when it's carved.  16 Q   And I'm sorry?  17 A  And the Chiefs that attend this give their blessing of  18 the pole, that their blessing would be that whatever  19 is carved on that totem pole will be the crests of  20 that family only.  21 Q   Did your grandmother ever tell you about a type of  22 Feast relating to a name that had not been passed on?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Would you tell the court what kind of Feast that is,  25 and if you wish, you can go onto describe it?  26 A   That is another type of Feasting.  When a Chief --  27 I'll say Chief.  It doesn't matter if it's the head  28 Chief or just the sub-Chiefs, wings, things are --  29 sometime it takes -- it takes days for -- to arrange  30 to bury a Chief, a very high Chief, and if no one is  31 selected at that time of the burial some families,  32 they say will bury their name with that person.  What  33 we say in our language "Dim tk'al wok'dimhl wa".  Now  34 my interpreter will explain what that is.  35 THE INTERPRETER:  We will bury the name of the person.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  Dim tk'al wok'dimhl wa D-i-m t-k-'-a-l  37 w-o-k-'-d-i-m-h-1.  38 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  d-i-m —  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  t-k —  40 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I didn't get beyond d-i-m.  41 THE TRANSLATOR:  t-k-'-a-l w-o-k-'-d-i-m-h-1.  42 THE COURT:  Thank you.  43 A   For a time, maybe a year or a couple of years, the  44 family decides and has selected a person that's  45 capable of taking the name of this Chief, so they call  46 the other Chiefs of different Clans and they're told  47 about this, and they say it's all right with the other 251  1 Chiefs, so they put on a Feasting again to let the  2 people know.  Now, this is part of adaawk again.  It  3 has to go to the -- to the House of this Chief that's  4 their adaawk.  Now, when this name is brought out from  5 the ground, again there's Feastings of opening the  6 grave, of digging out the soil, and they bring the  7 name out, they put a Feasting for that.  Then another  8 Feasting is set when this person is selected, and he's  9 taking the Feast House, the names put on him, so this  10 is how these names -- not often that this happens, but  11 maybe once or twice it had happened, so it has to go  12 in the adaawk of the Gitksan people that these things  13 happen.  14 Q   I would like to move into another area about the Feast  15 with you now, and you've described the seating at  16 your -- of your wil 'naa t'ahl, Gyoluugyat, but I  17 would like you to expand on that and explain to the  18 court the different seating -- the significance of the  19 seating in the Feast Hall and then I would like you to  20 explain the seating of different -- all of the Clans  21 at the different Feasts, and you can start by a Wolf  22 Feast in Kispiox?  23 A   Yes, all right.  24 MR. GRANT:  Just hold it, let me — yes.  Feast held by the Lax  25 Gibuu Clan at Kispiox.  Maybe you can explain the  26 importance of the seating.  27 THE COURT:  Is it described in one of these charts?  2 8 MR. GRANT:  29 Q   Yes.  The chart -- I will be referring firstly to the  30 chart at tab 4, which was prepared for the assistance  31 of the court.  Now, again did you instruct me and my  32 associates as to the seating at a Wolf Feast in  33 Kispiox?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And was a diagram prepared that you reviewed?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Okay.  I just ask you to look at the chart at tab 4 of  38 the document book, and I'll ask you if that's the  39 seating diagram for the funeral Feast or for Feasts of  40 the Lax Gibuu at Kispiox?  41 A   This is the Feasting at Gitan maaxs  42 Q   That's the Feasting at Gitan maaxs?  43 A   By the Wolf band, yes.  44 Q   My Lord, it's labeled at the top "'seating diagram for  45 funeral Feast hosted by Lax Gibuu at Kispiox".  That  46 should be "at gitan maaxs".  But is that a Feasting  47 prepared by the Wolf Clan? 1  A  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  5  6  MR.  BAXTE  7  8  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  46  THE  COURT  47  A  252  Yes.  This is how the tables are put out.  :  Okay.  What I would like you to do is to explain  this diagram to the court.  Now, the court has a copy  of it in front, and if you want to refer to parts of  it you can -- or in front of him.  ^:  My Lord, perhaps my friend might assist me.  Is  this the diagram of particular Feast, or is it just  representative of a funeral Feast?  I'll ask the witness.  Firstly, now that you've had a  chance to look at it, could you describe when this  seating would occur at a Feast in Gitan maaxs?  That  is, does it just occur at one particular Feast, or  does it occur at certain types of Feast?  Of different types of Feasts these are the seatings of  these Chiefs.  Okay.  That's hosted by the Lax Gibuu.  So every different type of Feast hosted by the Lax  Gibuu at Gitan maaxs will there --  Yes.  It's labeled for a funeral Feast.  Would the sheet be  different for a pole raising Feast?  No.  Or would it be the same?  It would be the same.  Okay.  Maybe you can just proceed and describe -- let  us start by saying -- showing the court where the door  would be, as that is a term of reference that may be  useful in describing the seating?  The door would be down near the bottom here.  In the centre?  Of the Gitan maaxs hall, where this would be -- tables  would be set.  Okay.  So it would be down in the centre of the bottom  you indicated?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, at the top of the page in the centre it  says Gitan Maaxs Lax See'l.  Could you explain the  seating there and who would be seated in the centre  and why, and go through that table?  In the centre of the table you will see Gyetim Galdoo,  and the holder of that name today is Sylvester Green.  :  And he's the head Chief of the Frog Clan at Gitan  Maaxs.  :  Of the Frog Clan?  Yes. 253  1 MR. GRANT:  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  A  At Gitan Maaxs?  At Gitan Maaxs.  And the Lax See'l that's written there, that's the  Frog Clan?  Yes.  Yes, okay.  Go ahead?  Now, facing the door this way on -- I keep thinking of  Gyoluugyat -- Gyetim Galdoo it is -- his left-hand  side would be seated Djogaslee.  That's Walter Wilson.  The next person would be Wiigoob'l.  That's Jessie  Sterritt.  The next person would be Nikateen, James  Woods Junior.  And the next person would be Ayawus,  Martha Ridsdale.  Um-hum.  What House is Ayawus in?  Gyetim Galdoo.  Now, on Gyetim Galdoo's right sitting  at this table would be Axtiidzeek.  That's Bruce  Johnson.  The next one would be Tsimtsiin, Joshua  Campbell.  The next would be Luutkudziiwus, Ben  McKenzie Senior.  The next person would be Ligitlam,  Vera William, that's supposed to be, not Wilson.  Oh, it's written as Wilson.  It should be William?  Okay.  Now --  Now.  You'll see the other tables here, tables here,  there's one there and one there.  Um-hum.  Now, yesterday I spoke about the wings of simoogit.  Now, these are the places for those wings, these are  the real high Chiefs, and they have nephews and  nieces, brothers and sisters, and these are the tables  that they would be sitting on, on the wing of  Simoogit's table.  Okay.  Before you proceed, I would just like to ask  you what House is Ligitlam in?  Hag Wil Negh.  And Tsimtsiin?  Tsimtsiin has it's own House.  Now, can you just proceed down to the other tables,  and I should just be clear, do these rectangles in  this diagram represent tables, actual physical tables?  Yes.  And that's what it uses today?  Yes.  That's what is used today.  That's why it's  so -- to us it's so complicated sometime when we're  using tables .  Um-hum.  Go ahead?  It doesn't -- when we use tables it doesn't show like 254  1 the old seating who's -- who will take the place of  2 this Chief when he dies on the table, and we use a  3 table that doesn't show that, the modern way.  4 Q   There's not a place in front for benches up front?  5 A   No.  There isn't in all these Chiefs.  6 Q   Okay.  So where did those successors now sit?  Did  7 they sit beside with the wings?  8 A   Yes.  And they would of course -- why these three  9 tables here in the village of Gitan Maaxs, there's  10 more in the plan than the Lax Gibuu and the Gitksan,  11 that's why there's more table for them.  12 Q   Now, going down in the same direction, you have these  13 other two tables in front, which appear to be the one,  14 but sitting at Gyetim Galdoo, the one on his right  15 would appear to be a Lax See'l table, and it has  16 Skiik'm Lax Ha on that.  Is that table -- can you  17 explain about that table and go on from there?  18 A  When the late Gyetim Galdoo, the late Thomas Danes,  19 died about three or four years ago they had a burial  20 Feast for him, and we all -- his mother knew that  21 there was not enough places for the family on the head  22 table, so he made a remark and people got extra gifts  23 for the -- the Chief to set up a table for the rest of  24 their family, her family, her House.  This is why this  25 table is set up here, and Skiik'm Lax Ha is the person  26 that sits at the head of this table.  And the person  27 that holds that name is Johnny Wilson today, Skiik'm  28 Lax Ha.  Now, Benicks sits on that table.  You'll see  29 it's Charlotte Solomon, it says Solomon, it's  30 Sullivan.  31 MR. GRANT:  I would ask the court to note a correction and  32 possibly we can correct the exhibit instead of  33 counsel -- but it's Charlotte Solomon, and it should  34 be Charlotte Sullivan.  And I also noted Ligitlam,  35 which said Vera Wilson, should read Vera Wale.  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q   Who's House is Benicks in?  39 A   Benicks is in Gyetim Galdoo.  40 Q   Now, going straight across to the other side, you have  41 a table which is labelled Giskaast?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Now, could you explain about that table?  44 A   That table is Wiigyet table of Giskaast, and there's  45 three there from Giskaast.  There's Wiigyet, Lloyd  46 Morrison; there's Waiget, Elsie Morrison; and there's  47 Wiiseeks, Ralph Michele.  Those are the head Chiefs of 1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22 MR.  GOLDI  23  A  2 4 MR.  GRANT  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  255  that table.  Then their nephews and nieces, brothers  and sisters, fill the other -- the space that's not  marked there.  Okay.  But they would all be in their House?  Yes.  Okay.  Going right down below that you have another  Giskaast table labeled Gwisgyan?  Yes.  In a Feasting at Gitan maaxs some Chiefs, they  invite other villages, so we have to prepare a table  for those people as well.  Now, this is why at this  Feasting of the Lax Gibuu just recently that their  table was put out for the Giskaast, the people in  Kitwangak or Gitchguka(phonetic), and Gwisgyan is the  head person of that table, and the other people of  Gitchguka form in there.  Well, let me ask you just to clarify this.  Let us  take Hana muuxw.  You know Hana muuxw?  Yes.  Now Hana muuxw is a Giskaast Chief from Gitchguka.  Where would Hana muuxw sit?  She would sit with Gwisgyan on this table here.  EI:  It's Stanley Williams?  Yes.  Stanley Williams.  Going into the second table in from the right-hand  side of the page as we're looking at it?  Yes.  It appears to be labeled Anaa'ap.  That should be a D,  D-a-'-a-p?  Yes.  It should be Anda'ap, A-n-d-a-'-a-p, I think.  Just want to show this to the interpreter so she  can -- okay, go ahead.  And you explain what Chiefs  would sit at that table and what villages they would  be from?  They would be from Kispiox.  Um-hum.  You notice that Anda'ap would be sitting on the side  of this table.  Okay.  Not at the end?  Not at the end, because this is one table that's not  completed.  Okay.  More Feasting has to be put on to clarify the seating  of this table.  Okay.  And at the bottom end of that table?  At the bottom end of the table it would be Niisqiminuu  right here on this side. 256  1 Q   He would be on the side as well?  2 A   Yes.  On the side.  3 Q   Okay.  So both Anda'ap and Niisqiminuu?  4 A   Yes.  And at the end of this table would be Guu  5 wo'otxw.  6 THE COURT:  Which tables again, please?  7 A   It's where -- same table as Anda'ap and Niisqiminuu,  8 but Guu wo'otxw sits at this end of that table, on  9 Niisqiminuu's side, Guu wo-otxw.  10 MR. GRANT:  Could you spell that, please.  11 TRANSLATOR:  Guu wo'otxw.  12 MR. GRANT:  And who holds that name?  Charlotte Angus.  Does Woosim Lax Ha at that table?  No.  Woosim Lax Ha sits on Geel's table.  That's the one just right of centre?  Yes.  That's Walter Harris, Geel.  Can you proceed on to explain the next table, which is  labeled as Tsibassa at the top.  That is Stanley  Wilson?  Yes.  That's the Giskaast table again from Kispiox.  Yes?  And their House, I'll have to be excused by them now,  their House is Luu hlim hetxwit.  That's the name of their House?  Yes.  That's the name of the House, and all that's in  that Tsibassa's House, and they all have, this one  table, the nephews, their nieces, the brothers and  sisters, they fill this table.  :  Could you spell that word?.  LATOR:  Luu hlim htxwit, L-u-u h-l-i-m h-t-x-w-i-t.  What does that name mean?  Luu hlim htxwit.  It's the House that sits at the  bottom of the hill.  :  Can I ask if these two tables, one shown headed by  Anda'ap?  Yes.  :  Is the table of a House?  Yes.  :  Which House?  Which House is it?  It has to be -- there's four Chiefs there, and I  can't -- I just have to leave that to the people  themselves.  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  MR.  GRANT  32  THE  TRANS  33  MR.  GRANT  34  Q  35  A  36  37  THE  COURT  38  39  A  40  THE  COURT  41  A  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  Q  45  A  46  47 257  1  THE  COURT  2  3  A  4  THE  COURT  5  A  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  MR.  GRANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  COURT  36  THE  TRANS  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  :  What about the next table headed by Stanley  Williams?  They're the table from Kitwangak.  :  Is the name of a House?  Not when they're visitors, but in their own place at  Gitchguka.  They would have their own seats there.  :  All right, thank you.  Would it be correct to say that at the end table  there's more than -- that Gwisgyan table with Stanley  Williams, that is, there's more than one house at the  table?  Yes.  And what about the table with Anda'ap; is there more  than one House?  Yes.  But the Tsibassa table is the table of one House?  Yes, table of Luu hlim hetxwit.  Moving on over to the next table, the table of Geel,  Walter Harris?  These Chiefs are from Kispiox.  Yes?  And every Feasting in either Kispiox or Gitan maaxs  they're seated the same way as when they're seated  here.  Okay.  Now, I note on the right-hand side of that  table is Chris Skulsh.  That is actually --  Yes, yes.  He's the next person that sits on the left  side of Geel.  And what's his Chief's name?  Gwii yeehl.  Could you give us a spelling of that, please.  It's here, isn't it.  I don't think that that's correct.  All right.  LATOR:  Gwii yeehl, G-w-i-i y-e-e-h-1.  :  All right.  And is he in the same House as Geel or a different  House?  Different.  And is that -- is he the head Chief of that House?  Is  it the House of Gwii yeehl, what is it?  Yes.  There will be some plaintiffs, this will be  explained more by them, by their House themselves.  Okay.  Are there any other houses that sit at the  table headed by Geel? 258  1 A Yes.  2 Q That you can describe?  3 A Alongside Gwii yeehl we have Tk'al gyoo'm lax ha.  4 MR. GRANT:  Madam Interpreter.  5 THE TRANSLATOR:  Tk'al gyoo'm lax ha, T-k-'-a-l g-y-o-o-'-m  6 1-a-x-h-a.  7 MR. GRANT:  8 Q Can you move over to the next table, which is labeled  9 Lax see'l and describe who sits at that table?  10 A That's Delgamuukw's table from Kispiox.  11 Q And that's Ken Muldoe?  12 A Ken Muldoe, and he's Delgamuukw now.  13 Q Okay.  And I note along the side of that table you  14 have Wii A'Lax?  15 A Wii A'Lax sits on the right side of Delgamuukw on that  16 table.  17 Q Okay.  And Axgiigii?  18 A Axgiigii sits on the left side of Delgamuukw.  19 Q Does any other House, that is a House other than  20 Delgamuukw, sit at Delgamuukw's table?  21 A Yes, there is.  22 Q Which other House?  23 A Alongside I don't know if there would be, I can't find  24 his Indian name, but he's Roy Wilson Senior.  25 Q Roy Wilson Senior?  2 6 A Yeah.  27 Q We can come back to that?  2 8 A All right.  29 Q The next table has the name Miluulak on top of it.  30 Now, where is Miluulak from?  31 A Miluulak is from Gisagas, the Frog town of Gisagas.  32 Q And is that the table of her House?  33 A Yes.  That's the table of her House, and on this table  34 again you will -- you'll find that there are different  35 Houses and Chiefs that sit on the same table as  36 Miluulak.  37 Q Now, is that because they're from a House other than  38 Gitan maaxs where this Feast occurs?  39 A No.  But they're all from -- all the ones that sit on  40 Miluulak's table are all from Gisagas, and you have,  41 like Wii Minoosik on the right hand of Miluulak, and  42 on his left would be Simgitgigenix.  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  I didn't quite get that last one.  44 MR. GRANT:  Simgitgigenix.  45 THE TRANSLATOR:  'Wii Minoosik, spelled apostrophe W-i-i  46 M-i-n-o-o-s-i-k, and Simgitgigenix,  47 S-i-m-g-i-t-g-i-g-e-n-i-x. 259  1 MR. GRANT:  2 Q Who holds the name of 'Wii Minoosik today?  3 A Robert Stevens.  4 Q And Simgitgigenix?  5 A Robert Jackson Senior.  6 Q The next table there appears to be a Lax See'l table  7 as well?  8 A Yes.  9 Q And Haalus is at the top, and can you explain where  10 he's from?  11 A This table is from Gitangas and their Lax See'l, so  12 when they're invited we have to have a table for them.  13 Haalus is the -- is the head person of this table, and  14 on his right would be Lelt.  That is Fred Johnson.  15 Q Now, is Haalus is different House than let?  16 A No.  17 Q It's the same?  18 A Yes, they are.  19 Q Now, who holds --  20 A Pardon me.  Haalus has his own House and Lelt has his  21 own House.  22 Q So who is the head Chief of the Frog Clan of  23 Gitwangak?  24 A 'Wii Hlengwax.  25 Q Would he sit at this table as well?  26 A Yes.  27 Q And who holds that name today?  2 8 A 'Wii Hlengwax.  29 Q If you can recall?  30 A Simply forgotten his English name.  I always knew him  31 as --  32 MR. GRANT:  Possibly the reporter could spell those words of  33 Lelt and 'Wii Hlengwax.  34 THE TRANSLATOR:  Lelt is spelled L-e-l-t, and 'Wii Hlengwax is  35 spelled apostrophe W-i-i H-1-e-n-g-w-a-x, underlined.  3 6 MR. GRANT:  37 Q You can proceed if you can't recall that name right  38 now?  39 A Yes.  His last night is Wright, but I can't place his  40 first name.  41 Q What is the end table that's labeled visitors for?  42 A Phrase that again?  43 Q The end table.  It is labeled visitors, but I just  44 wondered if there's specific types of visitors that  45 would sit there?  46 A Well, when a Feasting is done sometimes in the village  47 there are visitors, like when the Wet'suwet'en people, 1  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  THE  COURT  5  A  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  A  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  260  they would be seated there if they happened to be at  that Feasting.  :  Okay.  :  I don't see where your House would sit?  Because we're the host.  :  You anticipated my next question.  :  I'm sorry?  It's the Lax Gibuu that's holding this Feasting, so  our guests are from the Frog Clan and the Fireweed  Clan, as Giskaast and Lax See'l, is that clear?  :  I understand.  You've been at a Feast where this has been the  seating.  I mean you would be in this Feast Hall; is  that right?  Yes.  Can you tell the court where you would be and the  people in your House?  He doesn't see you on the  diagram, just describe to him where you would be?  All the Lax Gibuu people would all be at the door part  here taking part in giving out the food, the goods,  the money, those -- those are -- the people of the Lax  Gibuu would be doing, and if you're of the Lax Gibuu  Clan you don't look for seats, you just go and stand  against the wall.  So would you have -- you would -- you would never have  a table at a Feast hosted by your Clan?  No, never.  :  My Lord, I just wanted to comment that in light of  the fact of the changes and corrections on this  diagram I will be preparing one that sets out the  spellings more accurately, and that to assist the  court and my friend, but it will be as she's  described.  :  All right, thank you.  Can you turn to the next tab 5, and once again, was  this diagram prepared on your instructions?  Of the seating ever Feasts hosted by the Fireweed Clan  or the Giskaast at Kispiox, yes.  Okay.  And you recognize that seating chart?  Yes.  Okay.  Basic -- the basic difference is that it's  aimed in another direction, it's lengthwise.  Can you  explain to the court why it would be that way instead  of the lateral way the other seating chart was?  This is the way the hall -- how the tables are placed 261  1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25 THE  COURT  26  2 7 MR.  GRANT  2 8 THE  COURT  2 9 MR.  GRANT  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  in this Kispiox hall.  It's a lengthy hall.  Okay.  It's long rather?  It's from the stage to the door, so this is why we had  to have tables this way.  So the door is at the bottom of this page?  Yes.  At the bottom here.  Okay.  Now, unlike the last chart, this one -- does  this chart have a table for your House?  Yes, it has.  Okay.  Can you just show where that is?  It's way down at the bottom.  Close to the door?  Close to the door.  Now --  It's placed almost the width of the hall.  And why is that, why is it so wide?  Because --  Long I mean?  Because I have a long Wil 'naa t'ahl.  Now, I would like you to refer back to tab 3, in the  second page of tab 3 which we referred to yesterday.  And you can keep -- to assist the court you can keep  this open so that this tab 5 is hanging out with your  table there, and here's your table here  Are you looking at the modern seating or the old  seating?  The modern seating, my Lord.  Thank you.  Okay.  Now, under the tab labeled "Modern seating", is  this the seating how your table or your end of your  table would be in the Feast -- in the Feast described  in tab 5?  In other words, would this be the actual  people sitting there at this table along the bottom?  Yes.  You'll see that the modern, I sit at the head  table.  Yes?  And down at the bottom my name is again down at the  end of the table, and all this goes both sides of the  table here.  Now, are there other people other than those named on  your modern seating that would sit at your table?  Yes.  And who -- how would they be related to you?  They're my wil 'naa t'ahl.  So those would be the other people in those houses  that are your wil 'naa t'ahl? 262  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13 THE  COURT  14  A  15 THE  COURT  16 MR.  GRANT  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes.  You see that we have on here is a special person  too in our -- in our wil 'naa t'ahl is Xsi Osxw.  He's  got a Nax Nok name.  That's why he's placed there.  And that's —  Roy Wilson Junior.  He's the one sitting at the opposite end of the table  from yourself?  Yes.  Can you explain to the court what Xsi Osxw means, the  translation of that name?  Xsi Osxw means, in Gitksan would be "You irritate  people".  :  No, no.  Don't call counsel names?  That's what it is.  :  All right.  If you say so.  I don't know if I should ask for a break now, my Lord.  Okay.  Could you describe the seating at the other  tables at the head of the hall?  That is at the top of  the page at tab 5?  Five, yes.  Start wherever is most convenient and just describe  why those tables are set up like that and who those  people are and where they are from?  Well, always divide the tables in the centre of the  hall, and at the door here as you enter, these Lax  See'l tables would be on your left as you're entering  the hall, because the door is in here.  Um-hum.  And the Lax Gibuu will take the right side on the  hall.  Okay.  Why is Delgamuukw's table at the centre at the  far end?  Because he's the Chief of the Frog Clan in Kispiox.  Is he the head ever the Frog Clan of Kispiox?  Yes, at Kispiox.  And next to him is Gyetim Galdoo, who you've already  referred to on the previous chart?  Yes,, and this Gyetim Galdoo, this table here is  called Gitan Maaxs people, so Gyetim Galdoo is the  head Chief of the Frog Clan in Gitan Maaxs, so he sits  at the head table along side Delgamuukw.  Okay.  And as in chart 4, would other Chiefs, such as  Wii' Goobl, Nikateen, and Luutkudziiwus at that table?  Yes.  Because they're from Gitan maaxs.  Okay.  And once again, going to the far left as you're  looking at the table page at the top is Miluulak, and 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  263  you've already described that that's from --  Gisagas.  Gisagas?  Yes.  And again with the Wii Minoosik, as you have labeled  here, as you described was on the other seating would  the seating be similar to Gitan maaxs?  Yes.  So that Clan you've already described, but you  haven't, because it was a Lax Gibuu Feast.  You were  earlier described the Lax Gibuu seating, so going to  the right side, could you explain who was sitting at  that first Lax Gibuu table and why they are sitting  where they are?  The first table, Lax Gibuu here is Kliiyem Lax Haa,  and it's headed by Martha Brown today.  And she's an elderly lady?  She's an elderly lady.  Um-hum.  And she lives in Glen Vowell?  She lives in Glen Vowell.  Okay.  And who else sits at her table and why do they  sit there?  Like the way this table is set here, on her left would  be Wii Mugulsxw, and these held by Arthur Wilson  today.  On her left would be Wii Eelast.  Okay.  Just to clarify.  You said on your left?  Or on her right, I mean.  Okay.  And that's held by?  James Angus Junior.  Okay.  Now, why is Kliiyem Lax Haa at that centre  table of the Lax Gibuu at this Feast?  Because she's the head Chief of the Lax Gibuu at  Kispiox.  Okay.  Then going over to the next table beside her.  Yes.  It's labeled at the top, it's Spookw is there?  Yes.  Explain who else and where he's from?  The table is Lax Gibuu, Spookw, and he's from Gitan  Maaxs.  Spookw is the head Chief of the Lax Gibuu at  Gitan maaxs.  Um-hum.  What other Chiefs would sit there from Gitan  maaxs?  On his -- on his right would be Guuhatak 'Oxw.  Guuhatak 'Oxw?  Yes.  And who -- 264  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  THE  TRANS  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  A  21  THE  TRANS  22  THE  COURT  23  24  MR.  GRANT  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  GRANT  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  Tom Wright holds that name.  Next would be 'Uaguusip.  Yes?  That's Joyce Turner.  Right.  That's on his —  On his left, the way this table is sitting, facing the  door.  Right, okay.  On his right side who would be sitting?  That seat has been vacant now for some time.  The  House of this person hasn't decided to put any  Feasting, and the vacant seat is held by Laak', Laak'.  The last person that held it was Bob Scold.  Okay.  Now, my Lord, maybe at this stage you could  spell those names at those table, because not all of  them are written on the chart, or other than Spookw,  of course.  LATOR:   Guuhatak "Oxw, G-u-u-h-a-t-a-k '-O-x-w.  'Uaguusip, apostrophe U-a-g-u-u-s-i-p.  And that last name was?  Laak', that sits on his right.  LATOR:  Laak', L-a-a-k.  :  Pick a convenient time for the adjournment, Mr.  Grant.  Whenever it's convenient to you.  Yes.  Maybe we can just finish this.  Yes.  Maybe we can just go over to the -- there's a table  below Spookw's.  Is that a separate table, that small  one?  Yes.  That's Wii Gaak's table, and that's from  Gisagas.  Who holds that name?  Neil Sterrit Senior.  And who else would sit with him at that table?  That  is, would there be any other houses or any Chiefs?  Yes.  He has other Chiefs of his House, and the way  this Wii Gaak's table, we had to -- we had to -- you  have to fix it up again, it goes through this way,  because that small table there you can't get a hundred  people on that, that's the amount of people that's in  Sii Gaak's House, so this is how you have to make it  out, it goes this way, and Wii Gaak sits in the  centre, not at the end.  Okay.  So it actually goes parallel to your table  below these others?  Yes.  Okay.  Going over to the next table, which is labeled 265  1  2  3  4  5  6 THE  7 MR.  8 THE  9 MR.  10 THE  11  12 MR.  13  14  15  16  17  IS  19 THE  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  MR.  INTERPRETER  H-a.  at the top Niist, David Blackwater?  Yes.  Could you explain who Niist is and the village it  comes from and who else --  Niist is --  I'm sorry.  Where is this, Mr. Grant?  I'm sorry.  It's going along the top.  I'm sorry.  it's at the far right-hand --  I'm sorry, yes.  We're using the table in a  different sense.  Go ahead.  I know what you mean now.  Okay.  Go ahead?  Niist is David Blackwater holding that name today.  Um-hum?  And the way this table is facing, the door on his  right would be Waskyalax Ha.  Could you spell that, Madam Interpreter.  Waskyalax Ha, W-a-s-k-y-a-1-a-x, underlined,  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  And who holds that name today?  Lillian Atwater.  You were explaining that table?  Now, there are other Chiefs of Niist's House that  fills this one side, and they all have new people,  young people have taken out the names, and as of today  I'm not very familiar who's -- who has these names, so  I'll just leave it at that.  I don't want to make any  mistakes.  Okay.  But they are -- they are young Chiefs or wings  ever Niist's?  Yes.  Okay.  Going down below, you have the Lax Gibuu  with -- this is just below Niist's table in the same  direction as those tables, and it has Gwoimt, Kathleen  Wale in it.  Could you just explain where she sits at  that table and who else is at that table?  Still holding this -- this is the door here, it's on  the right side of the hall as you enter, and it's  against the wall like this.  She prefers to sit in the  centre of the table so that her wings would show on  both sides, and who sits in front ever her, this is  her request, the Chiefs, that her table would be set  this way.  Okay.  And could you just name some of the other  people that would sit at that table as her wings? 266  1 A  We -- a dealed a walk is her daughter, said I Harris.  2 Q   Could you just repeat the Gitksan again for the  3 interpreter?  4 A   Gaditk' AI'ow, Da, that's easy to spell, and K'ilax  5 ha.  That's held by Wilfred Wale, Gitksan.  I believe  6 I said that wrong K'ilax ha.  Now I just leave it at  7 that.  I'm getting.  8 Q   Okay.  Maybe —  9 A   I can guess, but they are like the new Chief that held  10 that Feasting of the Lax Gibuu recently when we had  11 these tables is Tsi Iwas, sits on the right hand of  12 Gwoimt at the table.  13 Q Tsi Iwas.  14 A Tsi Iwas.  15 Q Who holds that name?  16 A Arnold Johnson.  17 MR. GRANT:  Could you give the spellings of those names and say  18 them first and then spell them.  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  Gaditk' AI'ow, G-a-d-i-t-k-'-A-l-'-o-w.  I'm  20 having problems with Da.  I don't know how to spell --  21 D-a a?  22 A   Da is just Da.  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  Da, D-a.  And K'ilax ha?  24 A   Yes.  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  K-'-i-l-a-x h-a.  Tsi Iwas.  26 MR. GRANT:  Possibly this would be an appropriate time for the  27 break, my Lord.  28 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  29 THE CLERK:  Order in court.  Court is adjourned for 15 minutes.  30  31  32  33  34 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00)  35  36 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  37 a true and accurate transcript of the  38 proceedings herein transcribed to the  39 best of my skill and ability  40  41  42  43 Graham D. Parker  44 Official Reporter  4 5            (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:20 P.M.)  MR. GRANT:  Q   I was at tab 6 the document book, my lord.  And you had explained the table at which the Lax Gibuu table along  the side, there is another table that goes laterally across the room; could you  explain who is at that table and why they are at that table?  A  May I make my corrections at this time?  These words, these names  have come to me.  The one sitting on east table and on his left is Iiam Lax ha,  and that's held by Wallace Johnson today.  Q   Just a moment.  Could you spell it, please?  A  And the correction on this table --  THE COURT:  Just a moment, please. MR. GRANT:  Q   Just a moment for the interpreter to spell it, please.  THE TRANSLATOR:  Which name?  MR. GRANT:  Iiam Lax ha, Wallace Johnson.  She has just given that name now.  THE TRANSLATOR:  I-i-a-m, l-a-x, h-a.  MR. GRANT:  Q   Okay.  A  And the correction on this, when I gave that -- maybe I didn't give  it but the name is which Wilfred Wale and it's the table along the wall.  Q   The full name of Wilfred Wale?  A   Yes.  Q   What is that name?  A   T'an Lax ha.  MR. GOLDIE:  That's the chart under tab five, is it?  MR. GRANT:  Yes, the chart under tab five we are referring to?  A  Making corrections on it.  MR. MACAULAY:  I take it, my lord, that there is significance to the order of  seating and so on, or my friend wouldn't be leading this evidence.  Perhaps it  would be appropriate for my friend to file another exhibit showing all these  additional names and seating and so on.  THE COURT:  I think Mr. Grant indicated he would do that.  MR. MACAULAY:  Including the additional names?  MR. GRANT:  Yes, we will include the additional names.  A  Another correction I want to make, I remember the name of 'Wii  Hlengwax, it's Herbert Burke.  THE COURT:  Where is that again?  MR. GRANT:  That was on the chart at tab four, I believe, wasn't it?  Q   You indicated that was the chart, tab four, seating chart, the bottom  left hand corner of that chart, which has the label Haalus at the head of that  table?  A   Yes.  And at the head of that table would be 'Wii Hlengwax I  mentioned and the person's name is Herbert Burke.  MR. GRANT:  Q   Going back to tab five, did you have any other comments you wished to  make?  A   No, I have made my corrections.  Q   If you could just go through the -- that table along, not at the very  bottom, which I understand is your  46 table, but below the mid-section of the Lax Gibuu  47 table there. 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A   ]  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  1  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41 THE  COURT:  42  A  43  1  44  Q  45  A  46  4 7 MR.  GOLDIE  267  Here again, we have made corrections, like I said,  with all the people have to be seated.  This little  area here is too small, so we made the length of the  table this way.  The Lax see'l sits in the centre and  on his left facing the door of the hall would be Nii  Kyap and next to Nii Kyap would be Gwina nitxw.  When you say next, next to Nii Kyap on 'Wii Kaax  table.   So this table here would be actually the  table this should have Waiget?  If you want to make another chart, just don't put that  in there.  Just put it up further this way and then it  would be Xsi osxw table and then Xsi osxw sits in the  centre, Nii Kyap and Gwina nitxw.  And they are on one side --  Yes, on the left side.  Who sits on his right side?  Laats.  Do you know who holds that name today?  Martha Danes, I think it is.  Can you explain this other table that has labelled Lax  see'l, visitors and Lax Gibuu?  Rephrase that again?  Just explain this table here that's between the Nii  Kyap table and your own table?  You see, when we put visitors on the table like this,  you see, this is done in Kispiox, the feasting here,  we have the Kitsegukla and the Gitwangax people and  they are visitors so they don't -- we have to sit all  these head chiefs together from Gitwangax and  Kitsegukla.  So when we from Kispiox go down to  Gitwangax, they have a visitors table like this for  us, where all of the Lax Gibuu from Kispiox would sit  and the same way with the Lax see'l, they are called  the visitors table.  And only the chiefs of that  village would have their full seating but we are just  called the visitors just seated there.  In order of  how our tables are in Kispiox and Gitwangax.  I would ask you to look at tab six, which is again a  sort of lateral chart rather than vertical, what does  that represent?  Well, it states right on it what it is, doesn't it?  Now, I was asked a little while ago where do the Lax  Gibuu sit, now here is the seating of the Lax Gibuu.  Is this in Gitanmax?  Yes.  The door is at the bottom here, the door of the  hall.  :  That Gitanmax? 1 MR.  GRA1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  47  A  268  :  Yes, it's mislabeled, appears to be mislabeled and  we will be making corrections in this as well.  So this would be a Feast hosted by the Lax see'l?  Yes.  Yes, but it says Kispiox here, where it's in  Gitanmax.  I understand that.  Now, you have, in this description it appears you  have got many of the same names as we have seen in one  or the other diagrams.  Yes.  Now maybe you could just explain why Spookw sits at  the back or that head table in the centre?  This is the feasting of the Lax Gibuu -- Lax see'l  clan are the Frog Clan.  Now Spookw being the head  chief of Gitanmax of the Lax Gibuu clan so his table  is at the front, way up in the stage or whatever you  want to call it.  Now this is Spookw's table.  He sits  in the centre, this way, it doesn't go down, it goes  on the side because he wants to show the wing, his  wings sitting properly on his table.  Right.  Okay.  And here again, we see Gwoimt, these are the Lax Gibuu  and on the other you already have the names of the  people that sit with Gwoimt, on this table.  Same people would sit with Spookw as you described  earlier?  Yes.  And the same people would sit with Gwoimt?  Yes, on this table.  And the same way again on this  table of Feast, the same people would sit here only he  doesn't sit in the centre, Niist sits at the centre.  The further head of the centre?  Yes.  Go ahead with the explanation of the other tables?  You see here at the almost the end of the hall of the  Lax Gibuu.  And the same people, Gwoimt and Wiikaax  and Laats.  Going down to the tables down below --  Yes, the centre of the hall, at the bottom part all  the Giskaat tables are on the left side and all the  Lax Gibuu again would be on the right side as you, the  left side as you enter in the hall again.  I am  getting mixed up in my directions again.  So as you are coming in the door facing the hall,  facing towards the table, on the left is Lax Gibuu on  the right is Laats?  Yes. 269  1 Q   Maybe I could take an aside, why is that, you referred  2 a couple of times to the centre in that division,  3 could you explain why that is, why the centre is the  4 division?  5 A   It's the request of the head chief that he wants to  6 show who is all the head chiefs of his table and his  7 wings and his nephews, who would be the next person  8 take the chief, sits in head of them and shows when  9 you put them this way.  Whereas here it doesn't say  10 who would take the chief's next in line, becoming the  11 chief.  12 Q   You may have misunderstood my question, I was asking  13 why the hall is divided in the middle and you have one  14 clan on one side and the other clan on the other side,  15 is there a reason for that?  16 A   It's always been that way, yes.  I know the older  17 people when I was small, when they enter into a hall,  18 they look up at the rafters, and there is a centre  19 thing so that's when it's divided, that's their -- the  20 way they know the centre of the hall is something that  21 they have -- it's a mark that divides the two clans.  22 Q   Would Spookw in this, the Feast hosted by the Lax  23 See'l in Gitanmax, would he sit right in the centre of  24 the hall?  25 A   Yes, that's the way it is right here, of course.  He  26 has to sit right in the centre, his table is both  27 sides.  28 Q   Now, maybe you could just go through and be sure that  29 these tables are as they would be along the bottom  30 below Wii Gaak's table.  31 A   Like, in the Kiskaast House the tables would be the  32 same as when the Lax Gibuu people put on a feasting,  33 and it shows the names already in the -- on the tables  34 of when the Lax Gibuu and the feasting and they are  35 all the same, their seating is the same.  And the same  36 way when the Lax See'l put on a feasting, all the Lax  37 Gibuu's tables are here and they are all marked  38 already when the Lax See'l people put on the feasting  39 or the Giskaast people, this is how the Lax Gibuu's  40 table are sitting in Giskaast.  41 Q   I would like to refer you to that centre table and has  42 Nii Kyap and Gwininnitxw on it, should that be  43 different or --  44 A   It's been referred just recently that the head chief  45 of this House and how it was before, and he wants it  46 done again, the seating, that's why he wants his table  47 for him to sit in the centre of the table to show that 270  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  Q  44  A  45  46  THE  COURT  47  A  Nii Kyap and Gwininnitxw are on his left.  So so they are now sitting at the Nii Kyap table?  Yes.  Who would sit at this table or these two tables that  are in the middle of the Lax Gibuu, closest to the  centre?  Well, we could always use that for visitors, you see.  Like we say there would be visitors from Lax Gibuu,  Wet'suwet'en, they have would have these sections here  as visitors of the Lax Gibuu.  Now, we have gone through the description of the  seating at different feasts, and two of the charts  refer to seating at Gitanmax and one of them refers to  seating at Kispiox, aside from the fact the hall in  one case is lateral or length-wise and in the other  case is more longer, is the seating different, for  example, the diagram shows a Lax See'l Feast at  Gitanmax, would the seating be different for a Lax  See'l Feast at Kispiox?  The tables would be probably set up differently but  the chiefs' seats are there, they are not, they are  not changed.  So the Lax Gibuu would be on the same side in both  villages?  Yes.  And there would be a table for yourself at both  feasts?  Yes.  Could you tell the court what is the significance or  the importance of the seating at the feasts to the  Gitksan?  The seating of the chief shows their rank, because  there is always the head chief of the House and the  sub-chiefs and the wings.  So that's the importance of  the seating, is if you are knowledgeable about the  feasting when I enter that seating House and see how  these people are seated, you know what House they  belong to.  May I ask, whose funeral was this for?  Which one are you referring to?  At tab six, I think it is.  What the court is asking, here is tab six --  This funeral was held, put on by Nikateen for a  headstone of one of their chiefs in his House.  :  Headstone of a Lax See'l?  Yes. 271  1  MR.  GRANT  2  Q  3  A  4  THE  COURT  5  6  A  7  8  THE  COURT  9  10  A  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  COURT  15  A  16  17  THE  COURT  18  19  A  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  THE  TRANS  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GRANT  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  Q  In Nikateen's House?  In Nikateen's House.  Tell me, why is Lax Gibuu at the top and on one side  and Giskaast relatively lower in the organization?  This feasting is given by the Lax See'l people, so  they are hosts to the Giskaast and the Lax Gibuu.  Lax Gibuu and the Giskaast are the hosts?  I thought  it was hosted by Lax See'l?  Yes, Lax See'l is  the host.  The guests are the Lax  Gibuu and the Giskaast.  Why do the Lax Gibuu come ahead of the Giskaast?  You mean by being at the top?  Yes.  Because Spookw is the head chief of the Lax Gibuu at  Gitanmax.  :  So that configuration depends on where the Feast is  being held?  Yes.   Giskaast don't have a head chief at Gitanmax?  No, mostly in Kispiox.  :  I see.  All right.  Thank you.  Now, you described this Feast, well one erratta  obviously that it was in Gitanmax, you said it was for  a headstone, it's labelled as a funeral Feast, was it  a funeral and headstone?  No, two headstones were put on the grave that time and  the one headstone was for Nikateen's sister, and one  headstone was for his cousin.  And when was that Feast that you are referring to?  This now?  Yes.  The 2nd of Mayof '87.  Would the seating be, the same, if Nikateen from the  Lax See'l was having a funeral Feast instead of a  headstone Feast?  It will be the same.  I note on the exhibit, and it's caused some confusion  with the court, that Giskaast, I believe you have a  chart in front of you, is spelled G-i-s-k-a-a-t, there  should be an S in there, it should be s-t?  LATOR:  Yes.  A-a-s-t?  Yes, Giskaast.  And that's Fireweed Clan?  Yes, the fire --  The Fireweed Clan? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  Q  47  272  Yes.  Can you, I believe you were describing the importance  of the seating at a Feast, for the Gitksan, could you  proceed or had you completed your answer?  I didn't get the question.  Okay.  I had already asked you and you were partially  answering the question, what is the importance of the  seating, the order of seating to, at a Feast to the  Gitksan?  It's very, very important to have these seating  correct, that no other person would be able to sit in  these seats of the high chiefs.  And then, again,  while we are putting up the tables, we have to know  just how many chairs there is for the one table so  that one chief is not, is out of a chair, and that's a  very embarrassing thing for a chief, is to just stand  there and then there is no seat for him.  The host of  that feasting would be embarrassed just as well as the  chief and the whole House of that chief would be  embarrassed and, there again, a feasting would be put  on of the embarrassment of this chief not having the  chair put for him.  I want to be clear on that, if it was your House  putting on the Feast, a Lax Gibuu Feast, and you had  not seated a Lax See'l or frog chief correctly, you  have said there would be a feasting put on; would it  be put on by your House, the Lax Gibuu or that Lax  see'l House who had been embarrassed?  It would be put on by that Lax See'l chief.  Now, do you recall --  Let me phrase that again.  Go ahead.  That chief would, the Lax Gibuu would have just a  smoke Feast they would call it, just smoke and they  would announce that they made a mistake, they have to  tell the people that they, of their ignorance, not  knowing that there wouldn't be a seat for this special  chief.  So they have a little smoke thing or a Feast,  then that's when that chief that's embarrassed that  has to seat would give a Feast.  And who would contribute at that Lax See'l Feast?  All the Lax See'l clan, the House of that chief would  be the people that will be looked upon to stand more  of that feasting than all of Lax See'l clan would  contribute towards it too.  In the description that you have given in a answer to  his lordsship's latest questions about the Lax Gibuu 273  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36 THE  COURT  37  A  38 THE  COURT  39  A  4 0 MR.  GRANT  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  Q  and the Giskaast, you said that Spookw was the head of  the Wolf Clan of Gitanmax; is that right?  Yes.  Is there a head of all the Wolf Clan of the Gitksan,  is there one chief who is the head of all the Wolf  Clan of the Gitksan?  No, there isn't.  There is always just the head chief  of every House of Lax Gibuu.  Now, there are other Wolf Houses of the Lax Gibuu in  Gitanmax besides Spookw; is that right?  Yes.  So within the village there is a head chief of the  clan or a leading chief of the clan?  Of what clan?  Of, say, Lax Gibuu?  Get Gitksan clan do you mean or the House clan?  There is a head chief of each House, that's what you  have said?  Yes.  There is no head chief for all the Lax Gibuu of the  Gitksan?  No, there is not one.  What I want you to explain then to the court when you  say Spookw is the head chief of the Wolf in Gitanmax,  could you explain what you mean by that?  Spookw is the head chief because Lax Gibuu holds more  of the village and every village there is always a  head chief that's head of that village.  You see,  Spookw is the head chief of the Lax Gibuu, the head  chief of the Lax See'l at Gitanmax is Guldo'o.  When  any word comes into a village, the word has to go to  these two people because they are the head of the clan  and the village.  Neither one of them is above the other?  No.  :  Is there a head chief of the Gitksan?  Not in Gitanmax.  :  I mean of the whole organization?  No, no, we go by Houses.  Gyadim Guldo'o is the head.  What village would you describe yourself as being  from, Gyoluugyat, what is your village?  I always addressed myself as a, I am Guldo'o, because  the Kispiox accepted me as a Guldo'o.  And that's  where my seat is and I am just married to a person,  into Gitanmax, so I am from Guldo'o.  Who is the -- is there a head chief of the Wolf, a 274  1 leading chief, let's say, of the Wolf Houses of  2 Guldo'o?  3 A   Gyoluugyat is one Guldo'o, and they, there again,  4 there has to be a head chief of the Frog and the  5 Giskaast and the plaintiffs that are coming behind me  6 will tell if they are the head chief.  I can't say  7 that because it's not clear to me and I don't want to  8 make any mistakes.  9 Q   Is there any relationship between the seating of the  10 chiefs in the village and the -- I mean, sorry, the  11 seating of the chiefs in the Feast hall which you have  12 been talking about and the territories of the chiefs?  13 A   The seating of the chiefs in a Feast House, the  14 holders of the territory they come as they sit in the  15 Feast House.  16 Q   There is although the head chief of a territory.  Then  17 there is the sub-chiefs or the wings?  18 A   Yes.  The reason, sometimes, I am going to make it  19 more clear, in Gyoluugyat territory now, it's a big  20 area and then there is Houses, like you say five,  21 four, but then each one of us have a portion belonging  22 to each chief but as at wil'naa t'ahl we say that  23 whole thing, the wil'naa t'ahl.  No one is put out of  24 not sharing that territory.  25 Q   Which chiefs are you referring to?  26 A   That is Madiik, Hlo'oxs, Gwomoon and Gadilo'o where  27 our territories are and we share that territory,  28 although we have portions for our traplines to go out.  29 Q   So as we describe your territory in later evidence,  30 you will -- we will refer to that territory as marked  31 as Gyoluugyat's territory, is that the territory that  32 you are describing that are described, with Madiik,  33 Gwamoon, Hlo'oxs?  34 A   Yes, and it will show each holder of that portion of  35 territory.  36 THE COURT:  I am sorry, I am not sure that my note is right.  37 The witness first said that in Gyoluugyat territory  38 there are five or four Houses of which we each have a  39 portion but we share the whole thing.  Then she used a  4 0 name I didn't get.  Then she named the Houses.  And I  41 am not sure I have got them right.  Are they Madiik,  42 Gwamoon, Hlo'oxs, and is there another one?  43 A   Gyoluugyat.  4 4 MR. GRANT:  45 Q   There were four that she named.  46 THE COURT:  Was there a name that the witness used for the whole  47 territory? 275  THE  A   The people in my House they are called, we are called,  all the people that belong to these Houses, and their  children, the children of the -- of these four Houses,  they are brothers and sisters, their grandmother,  grandfather and we call that wil'na t'ahl.  COURT:  I will have to compare that with what I had  yesterday.  Doesn't seem to be the same thing again.  GRANT:  It may have been an example where I was doing some  of the spellings yesterday.  COURT:  I am not sure.  It's a different spelling from any  one I got yesterday.  So I will check it.  GRANT:  My spelling was not necessarily correct.  Possibly,  it's quite close to four, and it may be a convenient  time to adjourn.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Before we adjourn, I don't  want to presume in any way to either import to  instruct counsel or to appear to be impatient, because  I don't have that feeling at all, but inquire, are we  going to have a lot of this sort of evidence?  GRANT:  This is what I wish to advise you, my lord, with  respect to these three Gitksan witnesses, I have  endeavoured to break the evidence up so that there  will be a minimum of repetition of evidence so that  these basic concepts we are dealing with now is  something I was hoping we wouldn't deal with at length  with every witness, that once the basic concepts were  explained, the next witness' focus, although she will  refer to Feast, will be a different focus than this  witness, so it will be new evidence and something  different from this.  I wanted to use, of course,  there are many Feasts in all of the villages and  different seating but I was hoping to give you the  sense by taking these as exemplary.  THE COURT:  What I am troubled by, I would estimate we have  taken close to a third, if not a half of the day,  struggling with the spelling of these names.  Is it  not possible to have a glossary, a roster, some more  convenient way than the way we have done it yesterday  and today?  I don't know how many names we are going  to be dealing with.  I don't even know how many  members there are in the Gitksan band, if I can call  it that, but it seems to me that we are taking a lot  of time, without much benefit, from the way in which  we are trying to get these names.  And, in another  sense, I can say that I have been in many long trials  and some equally complicated as this, nothing is more  complicated than mettalurgical and pieces of lumber  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 MR.  9  10 THE  11  12 MR.  13  14  15 THE  16  17  18  19  2 0 MR.  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 276  1 coming out of a high-speed sawmill when you are  2 talking about different grades and different species  3 and that sort of thing, and a table such as we have  4 here, of the seating, it seems to me, could be put to  5 the witness and she could be asked is this the way you  6 sit at the Feast?  Seems to me all she has to do is  7 say yes or no and if doesn't matter, really, then,  8 that's prima facie proof and can be left for  9 cross-examination.  I don't say that there shouldn't  10 be a lot of detailed evidence about the significance  11 of these things but the basic facts, surely, shouldn't  12 be in much dispute.  And I will only say it seems to  13 me that if, and I don't begrudge the time, because  14 it's part of the immersion process that has to go on,  15 but is there going to be a great deal of this?  May I  16 suggest that it might be possible to do it in the way  17 I described or some other way.  There is lots of  18 examples.  And then we could spend our time more  19 profitably on what is really important.  Seems to me  20 the details, at the end of the day, the witness has  21 taken, I suspect, a day and a half now, more than a  22 day and a half, will not at the end of the day be very  23 much in dispute, I should think.  I will leave it to  24 counsel.  At the opening of a trial we should go step  25 by step and slowly and immerse ourselves in the  26 ambiance of the case.  But if there is going to be a  27 lot of this, counsel might consider how it can be  28 expeditiously put forward.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  Just so that my friend carries with him some sense  30 of at lease how we feel, there are names being heard  31 today that we are hearing for the first time.  32 THE COURT:  Same with me, Mr. Goldie.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  And we thought we had mastered most of them.  We  34 have been through evidence being given on commission,  35 we have been through a number of examinations for  36 discovery, we have watched the number of plaintiffs  37 grow and we have heard explanations for that.  And we  38 thought we had got that fairly well understood.  Well,  39 there are a lot of names that we are hearing today for  40 the first time and I would like to endorse the  41 suggestion of a glossary.  42 MR. MACAULAY:  There is another matter that will come up, when  43 my friends, at last it is produced, that's his atlas  44 of maps.  The maps we received today.  This comes as  45 no surprise because we have seen this kind of map  46 before.  The place names, the names of creeks and  47 rivers of hills and all the other features, are none 277  MR.  MR.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 MR.  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17 THE  18  19  2 0 MR.  21  22  23  24  2 5 MR.  26  27 THE  28  29  3 0 MR.  31  32  33  34  35  36  37 THE  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  of the them the geographic names, they are the Gitksan  names.  GRANT:  They are.  MACAULAY:  That's going to require a tremendous amount of  translation if there isn't a glossary.  Quite an  elaborate glossary, I would think.  GRANT:  One aspect of this, I may advise you, and I advised  the reporter, something we have been working with and  the interpreters working with, we are endeavouring to  have a glossary available that will be of assistance  to the court and to counsel.  But when we produce that  glossary, we would like to minimize confusion.  It  should clarify and not confuse so we want to be sure  it's accurate.  And that's a process that has been  going on for long before now and we are hoping that  something will be finalized.  COURT: Well, when Nat Bailey started the ball park, we  used to say, you can't tell the players without a  programme.  GOLDIE:  There is one other thing and that is the players  names are being changed as to their spelling. We are  hearing different spellings today and I would like to  suggest to my friend that there be a standard form of  spelling, if we may.  GRANT:  Yes, that's a question with respect to the  plaintiffs' names.  COURT:  Well, there will always be differences but at the  end of the day, I doubt if that sort of thing is going  to have any real significance at all.  GRANT:  The sense I was trying to endeavour explain to your  lordship is that you have a document, the statement of  claim, which has the names of will all these chiefs'  and Houses.  What this witness has been endeavouring  to do is to put within the context of the Gitksan  those names that are merely a list at this stage for  the court.  COURT:  I understand that.  And I think that's useful and if  this went on for a few more days I wouldn't feel that  I had been badly treated in any way.  But I do say if  it's going to be continued that there are perhaps ways  of doing it that might permit more to be done in the  course of a day than might be the result if we carry  on more or less as we have.  I don't say that  critically at all.  I say, I think ambiance is an  important part of the case and I am sure that counsel  think, and I can understand why they think it's part  of their case to paint that picture.  And I don't 278  1 object to that at all.  I do think that we have to  2 keep one eye, however, on progress.  Leave it at that.  3 10 o'clock.  Do counsel want 10 o'clock or 9:30?  4 MR. GRANT:  10 o'clock, I would think.  5  6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO FRIDAY, MAY 15th, 1987 AT 10  7 O'CLOCK A. M.)  8  9  10 I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true  11 and accurate transcript of the proceedings  12 herein to the best of my skill and ability.  13  14  15  16  17  18 Wilf Roy  19 Official Reporter  20

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