207 1 Smithers, B.C. 2 May 13, 1987 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of British 5 Columbia, this 14th day of May, 1987. Dlgamuukw, also 6 known as Ken Muldoe, suing on his own behalf and on 7 behalf of all the members of the house of Delgamuukw 8 and others, and Her Majesty the Queen in Right of the 9 Province of British Columbia and the Attorney General 10 of Canada. 11 THE COURT: I have an application brought by James Russell 12 Sterritt to be added as an intervener in this action. 13 Is Mr. Sterritt present? 14 MR. STERRITT: Yes. 15 THE COURT: Come forward somewhere, Mr. Sterritt, if you can 16 find a place. 17 MR. STERRITT: I'll use this chair here. 18 THE COURT: All right, that's fine. Your application, I take 19 it, is to be added to this action as an intervener? 20 MR. STERRITT: That's correct, your Lordship. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. STERRITT: That's correct. 23 THE COURT: Yes. What is it that you're seeking to accomplish 24 by this? Do you support the Plaintiff or the 25 Defendants, or what? 26 MR. STERRITT: My intention in intervening, your Honour, is to 27 protect my interests and advance my particular causes, 28 and in some instances those are the same as the 29 Plaintiff's, and I believe in some cases my position 30 will be consistent with the Defendant's positions, 31 your Lordship. 32 THE COURT: Well, are you a member of any of the Houses that 33 bring this action. 34 MR. STERRITT: No, I'm not. That's spelled out in the — I 35 spelled out in the affidavit that point 3, sworn that 36 I'm not a member, subject, or officer of any House, 37 Clan, or nation, a party to the present proceedings 38 before the court. 39 THE COURT: Well, how do you see your rights as different from 40 the general body of citizens of the province? If I 41 was to add you as intervener, then presumably a large 42 group of other individuals could also seek to be 43 added, and it would not be convenient. It would seem 44 we would have a lot of additional parties in this 45 lawsuit, which is difficult enough already. What is 46 your distinction from the general body of the 47 population? 208 1 MR. STERRITT: I am an Indian, as pointed out in the first fact, 2 that I'm an Indian pursuant to custom. 3 THE COURT: I don't know what that means, "pursuant to custom". 4 MR. STERRITT: Well, under the common-law, that's the basis for 5 the court. 6 THE COURT: Are you a member of any Indian band? 7 MR. STERRITT: I'm a member of the Haida Clan, your Honour. I 8 was adopted on the Queen Charlotte Island, and the 9 name Kagsholand(phonetic) is a Haida title. And I 10 have two children by a Haida mother, but I'm the son 11 of a white woman, your Honour, and in this case the 12 Plaintiffs, I believe, are advancing the position that 13 is carried forward through only Indian people in the 14 matriarchal line, and I have a concern that my rights 15 are in jeopardy through the action of the Plaintiffs. 16 THE COURT: Well, what rights are those? 17 MR. STERRITT: Rights to the soil, rights to the resources. 18 THE COURT: Do you live in this district? 19 MR. STERRITT: Yes. 2 0 THE COURT: Where do you live? 21 MR. STERRITT: I live variously along the Skeena, Prince Rupert, 22 on the Queen Charlotte Island. 23 THE COURT: What does it mean in your affidavit, and I'm not 24 sure I can pronounce these words, but it said 25 "affidavit of", and then there's some words that I 26 don't understand, and then "Haida king". What does 27 that mean? 28 MR. STERRITT: Well, the Haida I think is already 29 self-explanatory. 30 THE COURT: I know what Haida is. 31 MR. STERRITT: The word King, I would expect the court could 32 understand that word at this point by drawing the 33 parallel of, I guess, the original English King, 34 William the Conqueror, who when he set out from France 35 to claim the crown in England proclaimed himself king 36 and then went to England, and after some exercises was 37 crowned as the king. 38 THE COURT: Well, do you claim to be a king in that sense? 39 MR. STERRITT: I have the rights of a king, your Honour. 40 THE COURT: What does it mean when you describe yourself as 41 James Russell Sterritt, Cristian Prince. 42 MR. STERRITT: The word "prince" is similar to the word "king", 43 except the principle is usually thought of as a 44 descendant in a royal line. The word "Christian" 45 takes its meaning from the old and knew testament, 46 your Honour, and it takes its -- I guess it's legal 47 standing from the -- from the atmosphere of this 209 1 society, this Christian society. The word "Christian" 2 is very important in this affidavit as well when it's 3 associated as a Christian Prince because of some of 4 the documents that I would expect to put before the 5 court as intervener because several of the directions 6 that were given to parties that came to this country 7 had advice with respect to territories and people that 8 were encountered in these new territories, and there's 9 several references to what was to be done on meeting 10 Christian principles or the subjects of Christian 11 principles. 12 THE COURT: You say in your affidavit that the Plaintiff's 13 actions and any finding with that action injures you 14 and a general class of persons related to you. Who is 15 this general class? 16 MR. STERRITT: Well, the general class is, as you put it in your 17 question, Your Honour, the general class of -- I don't 18 think citizens is the correct word. I think what the 19 court has to take into consideration especially in 20 this action is that there is an, at this time in this 21 country, towing process with the constitution, and 22 both the native people and the non-Indian people have 23 a great concern about their status in this country, so 24 I feel that for myself I have been injured in the past 25 by the constitutional process. I've also been injured 26 by actions related to the entering of the Plaintiff's 27 action here, and I feel that a general class of 28 persons is subject to the same injury. 29 THE COURT: Well then, you seek to represent, if not a general 30 body of citizens, a general body of the population. 31 MR. STERRITT: I think that's correct, but in doing so I feel 32 that by referring to myself and the general class I 33 draw it toward a particular class, and that's a class 34 that is -- well, it was -- they were known as the 35 metis, and they required particular rights. In this 36 case I do the same thing, your Honour. I have mixed 37 blood. 38 THE COURT: What is it that you propose if added as an 39 intervenor; that you would cross-examine witnesses, 40 perhaps to produce evidence of your own, make 41 submissions at the end of the trial and generally 42 participate? 43 MR. STERRITT: On a very limited scope, your Lordship. 44 THE COURT: Is there any reason that I should know as to why 45 this wasn't brought before the trial started? This 46 action has been pending for some years, it's been well 47 publicized, it's been well known this trial has been 210 1 going on. Why didn't you apply earlier and get this 2 straightened out before the trial started? 3 MR. STERRITT: I wasn't in a position to do so, your Lordship. 4 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what that means, if that's all 5 you want to tell me. 6 MR. STERRITT: Well, I was in jail, your Lordship, and I only 7 got out of jail about two weeks ago, and I determined 8 that this was a viable course of pursuing my interest 9 in the case, and I began to inquire about this 10 procedure shortly before the trial opened, and I had 11 some difficulty in learning the procedure to be 12 entered as an intervenor, your Lordship. I could say 13 that I have been representing myself in court for some 14 seven years now, and I had a trial two weeks ago in 15 which I represented myself successfully, and I'm 16 familiar with the court procedures and I'm familiar 17 with the jurisdiction of the court, and I guess in 18 answer to the question you asked a minute ago, what 19 would I expect to do, it's obviously within the powers 20 of the court to direct the proceedings of the court as 21 they relate to the Plaintiffs and the Defendants, and 22 I would expect exactly the same, to apply. 23 THE COURT: All right. Anything else you want to tell me? 24 MR. STERRITT: Well, the last of the three causes that I 25 mentioned, that intervenor would be vindicated by 26 entering into this matter. I believe that speaks for 27 itself. The word vindicate has two meanings; one, to 28 correct some wrongs in the past, as well as to 29 achieve -- achieve some objective in the present. 30 THE COURT: Wrongs you say were committed by whom? 31 MR. STERRITT: Well, I would have to say the court, Your Honour, 32 and the Governments -- Governments of British Columbia 33 and of Canada, somewhat in the same line that the 34 Plaintiffs have presented the common-law as I 35 understand it is a process, and the process has not 36 been opened to myself or to the Plaintiffs, I don't 37 think, to the extent that they've been opened to the 38 governments and to the agents of the governments, and 39 that has acted against me me for the past seven years, 40 but as I say, by being entered as an intervenor in 41 this case I feel that I would be vindicated and have 42 an opportunity to protect my rights and advance my 43 cause. 44 THE COURT: All right, thank you. Do any of the present parties 45 to the action support Mr. Sterritt's application? 46 There being no response I take it that no one does. 47 Mr. Sterritt, I'm not able to accede to your 211 1 application. I'm not sure that I precisely understand 2 what it is that you seek to do, but as it appears to 3 me it would be highly inconvenient to start adding 4 parties to this litigation at this stage. More 5 importantly, it is my view that in the issues that 6 have been raised by the pleadings in this action the 7 Plaintiffs seek certain remedies, and they are being 8 opposed by experienced counsel, one of whom is the 9 Attorney General of British Columbia, who by law, 10 whether one necessarily shares his views of a 11 particular case or not, is the representative of 12 the -- of the public, and for that reason the 13 interests that you seek to represent are already by 14 law represented by the Attorney General. Even more 15 importantly, I think, is the fact that you have some 16 particular grievances apparently, which may be valid 17 or may not be valid, that's not for me to say, but for 18 the proper management of the court's business it's my 19 view that the remedies you seek, whatever they may be, 20 should be brought or should be enforced by a separate 21 action and not to be added to this one. If you have a 22 complaint against any of the parties to this lawsuit 23 or to the -- against the Crown, or, as you say, 24 against the court, then it's my view that your remedy 25 must be found not in these proceedings but elsewhere. 26 You can bring such proceedings or take such other 27 steps as you may be advised, but I am not proposing to 28 add you to this lawsuit, and your application on 29 behalf is dismissed. 30 MR. STERRITT: Thank you, Mr. McEachern. 31 MR. GOLDIE: My Lord, my instructions are to take no position 32 with respect to this application, partly because it 33 was not clear to me what the basis for it was. I 34 think, however, in view of some of Mr. Sterritt's 35 remarks, it should be made clear that while he is 36 denied a particular status in the proceedings, he is 37 at liberty, I am sure, at any time to either approach 38 one of the parties whose interests he sees aligned 39 with his at that particular time, or to come back to 40 your Lordship if he is able to identify an interest 41 which is placed in jeopardy by a particular 42 submission. I wouldn't like the applicant to go away 43 with the idea that the courts are always -- are 44 completely closed to him. 45 THE COURT: Well, he may have left under that apprehension, Mr. 46 Goldie, because he wasn't here to hear what you just 47 said, but that is merely a matter of record. I don't 212 please. 9 MR. RUSH: 10 MR. GRANT 11 MR. GOLDI 12 13 14 MR. RUSH: 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 THE COURT 22 23 MR. GRANT 24 25 THE COURT 26 27 28 29 MR. GRANT 30 31 THE COURT 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE THE MR. know what course Mr. Sterritt should take, I don't think it's my function to advise him. He may hear of what you said, Mr. Goldie and take advantage of it, that's not really a matter I can do much about. I think we have enough problems on our hands right now without extending the scope of the inquiry. We'll proceed with this trial in its present form. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Rush? Yes, my Lord. : Yes. We're ready to proceed with Mrs. McKenzie. E: I think my friend, Mr. Rush, was going to correct a statement that was made with respect to the Province on opening day. Just before we begin, my Lord, we brought to your Lordship's attention at the beginning of the trial that certain documents that were provided by, or at least the list sought by way of letter of the Province, had not been delivered. We've had correspondence, checked the correspondence, and we find in fact that these documents were delivered. : All right, thank you. In reviewing my notes last night. I don't think I have a definition of Nax Nok. : I hope that by the time the evidence is through you will. : I think one was given, but I just didn't get it. I can look it up in the transcript, which was just handed to me a moment ago, but I thought it would be an easy manner for somebody to tell me. : It's something I would rather have the witness explain than myself, because it's not a -- : Well, can we get going here, we're dragging again. Madam Translators, can you come forward too, GRANT: Now, my Lord, I would like to file with the court prior to Mrs. McKenzie's evidence a court agenda to the opening, which has certain corrections on it, and in fact, it's marginally noted in the margin as to where those corrections should be in the transcript. Copies of that have been given to both parties. COURT: All right, thank you. I'll add that to the opening. REGISTRAR: Witness, I remind you, you are still under oath? A Yes. GRANT: Q A I possibly, because court asked for this explanation, and you did give it yesterday, maybe you could explain to him how you would explain what Nax Nok is? I believe your Lordship is stating this, as a Gitksan law we start our procedures with a Nax Nok. Nax Nok 213 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 THE 11 12 THE 13 14 15 THE 16 MR. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 THE 2 4 MR. 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 is used in starting in a Feast House. When there is a death of a Chief, raising of a totem pole, a head stone, and then the Feast is put on, and the first thing that appears in the Feast House is for the Chief to act out their Nax Nok, which is a living thing to us, and you may call it a spritual thing that gives the strength of what the proceedings of a Feast would be. I will -- we will start heavy Feasting by acting out that Nax Nok. COURT: It's a ritual? A It's the power. COURT: Is it a ritual? A Well, in a way, yes, the way it was and the way it is today. COURT: All right. GRANT: My Lord, to assist you, just to advise you how I anticipate proceeding with this, later in Miss McKenzie's evidence she will describe some aspects of the Nax Nok, another witness will be describing it more fully, and I hope you have an opportunity to actually see through an expert from a piece of the performance of a Nax Nok. And I'll elucidate on this. All right, thank you. Mrs. McKenzie, before I start, if you want a glass of water at any time, you just mention it. Yesterday we ended up where you were explaining your authority as Gyoluugyat to be in this action and represent the House. When did your training as a Chief begin, and how did it begin? A It began when I was born. Two weeks later there was a Feasting put on by my family, House, for the head Chiefs to recognize me, and as I mentioned yesterday, that our wilxsi'witxw, that's the family of my father, would aid me in any way, and this is one particular time, the first time that they have to handle me, give me what is needed for the preparation, so a cradle was made for me by my uncle, Jim Lax Nitsik', and he walked from Gitangasx to Kispiox with this cradle, and a Feasting was held, and here they put me in this cradle and they took me around to the head Chiefs for the head Chiefs to give power to me. I was given a name at that time, my infant name. Three years later my aunts came up again and they pierced my ears, and it was done by my aunt. I'll mention their names, because they're of the house of Haaluus. They -- there were Agnes Sutton and Mrs. Selina Williams. COURT GRANT Q 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 0 A 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 MR. GRANT 214 Can I just stop for a moment? Yes. You said that your uncle made this cradle and his name was Jim Lax Nitsik' did he have a Chief's name? Yes. What was that? 'Wii Hlengwax. Okay. You also indicated you were given an infant's name? Yes. At that Feast? Yes. When you were two weeks old. What was that name? K'am akst, K'am akst. : Can Miss Stevens spell it for the court. 16 THE TRANSLATOR: K-'-a-m-a-k-s-t. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, but I really can't hear what the 18 translator is saying very well. 19 THE TRANSLATOR: K underlined. 2 0 THE COURT: Yes. 21 THE TRANSLATOR: Apostrophe a-m-a-k-s-t. 22 THE COURT: Thank you. And you said you were carried around at this Feast to the Chiefs. Who carried you around? My grandmother. 3: Could my friend ask her the source of her information, what went on when she was two weeks old? Before that I would like to ask you what your name -- this name K'am akst means. K'am akst means "To dip in water". And is that a name in your House? Yes. Now, before going to the next Feast, possibly you could tell the court how you know what happened at this Feast when you were an infant? My grandmother had to tell me, so she repeated everything what went on from the day I was born. Okay. And the other Chiefs who were Chiefs from other Clans were present at this Feast? Yes. And from other villages? And from other villages. Do Chiefs today know that this was your infant name? Yes. Now, you were starting to describe, I believe you 2 3 MR. GRANT 24 Q 25 26 A 2 7 MR. GOLDI 28 2 9 MR. GRANT 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 A 39 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 215 1 said, two or three years later, this other ceremony? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Would you go on with -- just describe that then? 4 A As I said, that after -- when I was three years old I 5 had to have my ears pierced. The reason for this is 6 going through all of this procedure from my birth up 7 to today, that my parents were both head of the House, 8 Chief of a House, and they had Houses. My father was 9 from Kitwangak, and his Chief name was Haaluus, and 10 Haaluus' House. My mother is from Kuldo'o, and her 11 name, her Chief name was Madiik. Now, she has a House 12 at Kuldo'o. Now, that means that having both parents 13 as head Chief I become as -- I don't know how to use 14 the word, but in English you would indicate it as a 15 princess. 16 Q Is there a Gitksan word for how that would be? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What is that? 19 A Hlgu wilksahlxw. 20 MR. GRANT: Could you provide a spelling for that, Miss Stevens. 21 THE TRANSLATOR: H-1-g-u-w-i-l-k-s-a-h-l-x-w. 22 MR. GRANT: 23 Q Proceed. You were describing this ear-piercing event? 24 A This ear piercing is not only for girls, it's done on 25 boys as well, only just the one side for the boys. 26 Being a female I had to have both my ears pierced. 27 Q Did this occur at a Feast or at some other event? 28 A Well, the piercing wasn't done at the Feasting, but it 29 was the day after my ears were pierced, when they held 30 a Feasting to show the head Chiefs that I had my ears 31 pierced, and then a name was given to me again at that 32 time. 33 Q And what was that name? 34 A I got so many names -- 35 Q Just take your time and think of it? 36 A Sgwina mix kaaxhl 37 MR. GRANT: Before you go on on I'll have the translator spell 38 it. 39 THE TRANSLATOR: S-g-w-i-n-a, that's one word, m-i-x, stop, 40 K-a-a-x-h-1, h-a-a-s. 41 A May I make a correction on that. Just rub off the 42 Haas on that. It's just Sgwina mix. 4 3 MR. GRANT: 44 Q That's the H-a-a-s? 45 A Yes. 4 6 Q What does that name mean? 47 A The way I say or tell it, everyone of us in this room 1 2 3 4 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 15 16 17 A 18 19 20 21 22 Q 23 24 25 A 26 27 28 Q 29 A 30 31 32 33 Q 34 35 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 Q 45 46 47 216 knows what a fireweed is. It's a plant that has these flowers, purple flowers on it. Now, the fall there's a fluff right at the tip of this plant, and that's what we call sgwina mix kaaxhl, is that white fluff. Okay. Is there anyone else in your House that now holds this name? Yes. Who is that? My granddaughter. Could you give her name? Carla Craig. You described that the persons, your aunts, as you said, Agnes Sutton and Selina Williams, were the once who pierced your ears. Can you explain more precisely their relationship to you and why they were the ones that pierced your ears? They were the sisters of my father, and that's who I said yesterday that they're my wilxsi bagxws, is the name for it, and I said yesterday that my wilxsi bagxws would be the people to groom me and to aid me to anything I needed, support. Does the piercing of the ears when you were three years old, does that signify anything with respect to the fact that you are a Chief today? Yes, it does. When I had my ears pierced, and I wear these ear-rings, it gives -- in Gitksan law it means that I won't take or hear anything that's wrongful. Um-hum. And by wear these ear-rings and my bracelets, to the Gitksan it's not jewellery, it's our identification. In the olden days it's only very few women and men would be able to have their ears pierced. And those men and women that were able to have their ears pierced, were they all -- I will use your translation of the children of royalty, I think as you tried to make an analogy? Yes. That's what it is. And they were those who would succeed to chiefly names? Yes. Okay. Can you continue -- well, before you continue, you're wearing bracelets now; is that right? Yes. Maybe you could just hold them above the dock so the court can see them. Now, on those bracelets is there anything that significant that is related to Gyoluugyat? 217 1 A 2 3 Q 4 A 5 6 7 MR GRANT: 8 THE COURT 9 10 11 A 12 13 THE COURT 14 A 15 THE COURT 16 A 17 18 THE COURT 19 A 20 THE COURT 21 A 22 THE COURT 23 MR. GRANT 24 Q 25 26 27 28 29 A 30 31 Q 32 33 A 34 35 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 MR. GRANT 42 MR. GOLDI 43 THE COURT 44 MR. GRANT 45 Q 46 47 A Yes. My ear-rings show that I'm from the Lax gibuu Clan. Um-hum? My bracelet shows that I -- our crest is the grizzly bear, the wolf is my Clan, the dibe is my crest that are engraved on these bracelets. Okay. Did you -- : I didn't really understand that. You didn't say that your bracelets identify your House; is that what you meant, or were you saying something different? It identifies my crest and my Clan. The Clan I belong to is Lax gibuu. : Well, you said your ear-rings showed your Clan? Yes. : Yes? They engraved my bracelets, engraved on them or my crests, like the grizzly bear. : And you said wolf? And the ram. : And the ram. Didn't you say wolf? Yes. The wolf is my Clan. : Yes, all right. Maybe I'll ask a question which might give you an opportunity to clarify it. When you say the grizzly bear and the ram, are those crests that belong to all the Lax gibuu, or do they belong to the House of Gyoluugyat? They only belong to the house of Gyoluugyat, is the grizzly bear and the ram. Okay. After you received this name at the time of your ear piercing, did you receive any other names? When young girls and young boys reach the age of puberty a Feast is given for that purpose too, and names are given again. Did this happen to you? Yes. And how old were you about when this happened, when you received another name? About 13 years old. : And did that occur -- and what name did you receive? E: I have no objection to leading on that. : Thank you. The reason I'm not leading, sometimes my pronunciation is as misleading as leading. If you wish me, I will? Yes, I think so, because I -- with all these names 21E 1 2 3 4 MR. GRANT 5 6 7 MR. GOLDI 8 MR. GRANT 9 10 MR. GOLDI 11 MR. GRANT 12 Q 13 A 14 MR. GRANT 15 16 THE TRANS 17 THE COURT 18 MR. GRANT 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 25 26 27 28 A 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. GRANT that are in me, and trying to have this straight as much as I can, these names are not coming fast enough for me. : Maybe I'll have the interpreter come over here because she can pronounce the name better than I, and I'll try to pronounce it. E: No. I would encourage my friend to try. : I will try. Thank you, Mr. Goldie, I appreciate your confidence in me. E: It's not confidence, it's past experience. Gwineekxw'm dak', is that the name? Yes, pretty close. I'll say again, Gwineekxw'm dak'. : And what does -- well, I'll have the reporter spell it. LATOR: G-w-i-n-e-e-k-x-w-'-m-d-a-k'. : Thank you. What does that name mean? It means the coal bark of a tree. Is this a name in the House of Gyoluugyat? Yes. Now, you've described a number of the names that you've received. Can you tell the court now the significance of receiving these -- of you taking on different names at different times in your life. What is the significance to the Gitksan of holding names? The way I describe myself from birth now up to what I just said is in Gitksan it shows the preparation to become a Chief. In Gitksan law you have to work yourself up to become a Chief. You don't get a Chief name just if you want it today, you'll have it, it will be given to you. It doesn't work that way. In in the Gitksan law, right from infant we have to prepare our children to reach the stage of the becoming a head Chief of a House or to become a Chief, the wing of a Chief of the House. Now, all these, when names are changed there's Feasting giving every time, and this is the strength of the names, and it's the strength of the Feasting, because in a Feasting this is where we make our laws. Our names are given in a Feasting, marriage is taken to a Feasting, divorce is taken into a Feasting, and the territory we hold we -- we say what part of the territory each Chief holds, so each Feasting has a meaning, and each Chief has to work himself up to become a head Chief. : I would like to move into another area now, my Lord. 219 1 2 3 4 MR. GOLDI 5 6 7 THE COURT 9 10 11 12 13 14 MR. GOLDI 15 16 17 18 19 MR. 2 0 MR. 21 MR. 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 THE 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 GRANT GOLDI GRANT COURT I would like to ask you, Gyoluugyat, to give your adaawk, that is the adaawk, your House. Could you tell the court the adaawk or history of Gyoluugyat? E: Before the witness says it, I take it your Lordship will rule that the adaawk is qualified as an exception to the hearsay rule. : Well, it may be that it will come to that. I'm not sure that I've heard enough to know whether it is an exception to the hearsay rule and therefore admissible. Certainly it would be doubtfully admissible merely on the say so of one witness, but I would look forward to some assistance from counsel in that regard. E: Well, the reason I made the intervention I did was that there has been -- there has been evidence led with respect to it, and I would anticipate if my friend would make a submission before the witness was asked to give the evidence in question. : With respect to the admissibility? E: Yes. : Yes, my Lord, as you appreciate, yesterday there was evidence led through the witness which you yourself were aware of the focus of that evidence as to the oral history. Now, I -- if what you're suggesting is that if we only led the adaawk and the significance of the adaawk through one witness, that that may not be sufficient. I can assure you that we will be referring to that through other witnesses as well. If on the other hand you're suggesting that you would like me to ask the witness more about the oral history on the adaawk, I can pursue that with this witness and, finally, if you are asking for a submission on the law of the admissibility of the adaawk, then I can, and my associate Mr. Rush is prepared to deal with that, so before I proceed I wanted to be clear as to what you were considering. : Well, I'm not really suggesting that you should follow one course or another. I have some hesitation about the proposition, if such it is, and I'm not sure that it is, that a person, assuming the highest level of credibility, can prove a matter of what I will call Gitksan law just on the say so, just on his own say so. I'm not urging counsel to extend the evidence unnecessarily, but I'm taking in what's being adduced now, and at some stage I expect I will have to rule. I think it was common ground several times yesterday that -- that hearsay can be received, can be 220 1 admissible in matters of this kind, and various 2 authorities have dealt with that. The Australian case 3 dealt with it quite extensively. 4 MR. GRANT: Yes. 5 THE COURT: But it may not be that I can pass on the 6 admissibility of the evidence until some later time. 7 If you call Mrs. McKenzie and she gives me her 8 understanding of the adaawk, or her recollection of 9 it, which I guess is really what it is, and if that's 10 all I hear, that may not be enough. I wouldn't want 11 to predict that far in the future what the result will 12 be. I think that it is appropriate that I should hear 13 what she says about the terms of the adaawk, if that's 14 the proper way to describe it, and whether that's 15 admissible or not seems to me to be a matter that will 16 have to be considered later. 17 MR. GRANT: Yes. I think you can appreciate the point that I 18 anticipate that other witnesses will explain the 19 significance and the varification procedure of the 20 adaawk, but I'm at the point now where I would like 21 her to tell her adaawk, and of course when you deal 22 with the question of its admissibility you have the 23 benefit of those other witnesses explaining further 24 the significance. 25 THE COURT: Well, perhaps I should ask Mr. Goldie the precise 26 thrust of his observation a moment ago. Are you 27 suggesting, Mr. Goldie, that I should rule now that 28 this is admissible as to the exception to the hearsay 29 rule? 30 MR. GOLDIE: No. I anticipate my friend would make a submission 31 either that your ruling be made now, if he felt the 32 evidence justified that, or that it be admitted, or 33 heard, I should say to be more precise, that it be 34 heard subject to a later submission. It is -- it 35 matters not to me, except that there be a point, we 36 have reached a point. 37 THE COURT: Yes. 38 MR. GOLDIE: Where the evidence is given either as a result of a 39 ruling or subject to a future ruling. 40 THE COURT: I think it's the latter. 41 MR. GRANT: Yes. That is what I was proposing. 42 THE COURT: Evidence in contemplation of a ruling. All right. 43 What are you asking the witness, the adaawk of the 44 Gyoluugyat or the adaawk of the Gitksan. 45 MR. GRANT: The adaawk of the Gyoluugyat's House. There are 46 many adaawk of the Gitksan. 4 7 THE COURT: Yes. 221 Some of which you will hear. Thank you. 1 MR. GRANT: 2 THE COURT: 3 MR. GRANT: 4 Q Now, before I ask you to give the adaawk, have you as 5 Gyoluugyat given the adaawk of Gyoluugyat in a Feast 6 or an event of the Gitksan, or have others -- other 7 Chiefs of your House given it in your presence? 8 A Would you rephrase that again, when you say of 9 Gitksan. 10 Q Okay. 11 A I'm not too sure of that, your question. 12 Q As opposed to being in this court, have you given 13 Gyoluugyat's adaawk at a Gitksan Feast? 14 A Yes, I have. 15 Q Under Gitksan law, is that the place where the Gitksan 16 Chiefs give their adaawk? 17 A Yes. 18 MR. GRANT: Okay. Could you — 19 MR. GOLDIE: Excuse me. Is the point of my friend's question 20 that what she is now going to tell us she has told us 21 on a number of other occasions, is that what -- 22 THE COURT: I'm not sure. 23 MR. GRANT: That's part of it, yes. 24 MR. GOLDIE: So this, I just want to be clear on this, what we 25 are to hear now is not you, it is something which the 26 witness has said on a number of other occasions in the 27 same terms as she now proposes to give it? 28 MR. GRANT: You're anticipating my question, Mr. Goldie. 29 MR. GOLDIE: All right. 3 0 MR. GRANT: 31 Q Just before you go on, the discussion between the 32 court and counsel was with respect to rulings of 33 admissibility, and that's not for you to -- don't let 34 that distract you from what you are saying, that's a 35 matter of legal argument that we will have. Can you 36 tell the court, in as much detail as you feel 37 appropriate, the adaawk of Gyoluugyat today? 38 A Right from start Gitan gasx. 39 Q Yes. Starting from the earliest time and bringing the 40 history of your House forward, as you would tell it in 41 the Feast. And if it's easier to tell parts of it in 42 Gitksan, then you can advise the court of that and the 43 translator is there to assist you. 44 A I'll try and make this very brief, because I imagine 45 that the other Plaintiffs would have a more lengthy 46 adaawk than others, so I'm going to give it briefly at 47 this time. 222 1 Q Okay. Before you go on, I would like you to feel 2 comfortable about taking your time and you don't feel 3 that you do have to edit it. Do as much as you would 4 like? 5 A The adaawk of Gyoluugyat starts at Gitan gasx. It's a 6 village, and to translate, the Gitan gasx is the 7 village of wild rice. It's been the oldest village up 8 north. The location is near Bear Lake. In the House 9 of Gyoluugyat and Gitan gasx we have a warrior, and 10 the name of our warrior in our House, Gyoluugyat's 11 House, is Suuwiigos. 12 MR. GRANT: Just stop to have the translator spell that. 13 THE TRANSLATOR: S-u-u-w-i-i-g-o-s. 14 THE COURT: O-s? 15 THE TRANSLATOR: Yes. 16 THE COURT: Thank you. Proceed? There's another group of native people. They're called Tsi tsa wit, and they're further up north. They came down to Gitan gasx, and they had seen that the people of Gitan gasx had quite a bit of land, so they decided to raid the village of Gitan gasx to get more of their land. Suuwiigos had a brother by the names of Tsawaas. : I'm sorry? LATOR: T-s-a-w-a-a-s. : Yep. Proceed? While he was on his trapline, and after he was discovered that somebody had killed him, and this made Suuwiigos furious, so he started a group. He asked for a group of people to go with him, to go to the Tsi tsa wit territory. : I don't think I had a spelling of Tsi tsa wit. Maybe you should give the spelling now. : I thought we did. 39 THE TRANSLATOR: I don't think so. 17 MR. GRANT 18 Q 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 THE COURT 27 THE TRANS 28 THE COURT 29 MR. GRANT 30 Q 31 A 32 33 34 35 36 MR. GRANT 37 38 THE COURT 4 0 THE COURT 41 MR. GRANT 42 THE COURT All right, I'm sorry. We had the names, but Tsi tsa wit was -- I thought that was Suuwiigos. 43 THE TRANSLATOR: No. That's the name of a warrior. 44 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Oh, yes. You're right, sorry. 45 THE TRANSLATOR: T-s-i-t-s-a-w-i-t. 4 6 THE COURT: Thank you. 4 7 MR. GRANT: 223 1 Q Proceed, Mrs. McKenzie? 2 A They raided -- they came upon a place where they only 3 seen smoke coming out from the ground, and these were 4 the people we call in Gitksan, Luu Tsobim tsim yibit, 5 and it means the people underground, living 6 underground. 7 MR. GRANT: Madam Translator, can you spell that for us, please? 8 THE TRANSLATOR: L-u-u-t-s-o-b-i-m-y-i-b-i-t. 9 THE COURT: Y? 10 THE TRANSLATOR: I-b-i-t. 11 MR. GRANT: Proceed? They had a very good idea of their location of this village that they came upon, so they returned, and Suuwiigos prepared himself to declare war with these people, so he -- they killed a grizzly bear and they took the hide, almost a whole hide with the head and paws and everything on it. Now, they prepared this grizzly hide, they cleaned it, scraped all the fat off it. Now, they went and got pitch from the jack pine trees, and they rubbed it on this fur part of the hide, and they covered it with sand. Now, they had this -- had this hide out, and the people had bow and arrows. They shot at this hide. If the arrow goes through they have to put more pitch and more sand to it for it to be arrow proof, you would say. Now, when this was ready, Gyoluugyat knew that this armour was ready for him, so they set off again and they went to where this village of the people that lived underground. Now, he advised his army that he -- they'll sneak up to this place while he himself draped in this grizzly bear skin, and he walked down the opposite of the village, the adaawk goes like there was a gulley, a deep gulley, and this is where the grizzly bear with Suuwiigos in it walked, and then the people of the underground seen this grizzly bear, and they went out, they want to kill it, so they did. Now, they took all their arrows, they shot at the bear and they didn't penetrate at all, so all their arrows were used up. This is when the force came and went into dug up the people, they killed them all. Now, this is how Suuwiigos led this group of people to fight off these Tsi tsa wit. Now, when this was over Suuwiigos returned to Gitan gasx. Could I interject for a moment? Yes. You said that -- that after they shot their arrows at 12 Q 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 224 1 the grizzly, that is when the force came? 2 A Yes. 3 Q What do you mean by "the force"? 4 A The people that Suuwiigos went with, his -- 5 Q Okay. And the other point of clarification you 6 described, there was a gulley. Was the grizzly bear 7 in the gulley or on one side or the other of it? 8 A It was on one side, walking like at the edge of the 9 gulley. 10 Q Okay. And the people? 11 A And it went down, so the people that went down to 12 shoot at the Grizzly bear, they fell in this high 13 gulley, and that's how some of them were killed. 14 Q Okay. Go ahead? 15 A He returned to Gitan gasx. Now, he knew that he had 16 to have someone with him to -- to help -- to aid him 17 or to -- he has to have a brave person too, so that 18 they would do more raiding, because they -- he knew 19 that there were still more Tsi tsa wit in other 20 places. He had -- now, this is not clarified to me, 21 but I'll say it both. It's either Suuwiigos had a 22 lovely daughter or a lovely sister, and he wanted 23 someone to marry his sister, so he sent word out that 24 he had a beautiful sister or beautiful daughter, and 25 the men of the -- of other places, villages other than 26 outside of the Gitan gasx came, and quite a few came. 27 Suuwiigos didn't think that there were -- he wasn't 28 the man for his sister, so one day this man came, he 29 heard about Suuwiigos and he heard that he had this 30 lovely lady. So he went -- he went into Gyoluugyat's 31 House, and Gyoluugyat never turned, and this man by 32 the name of Kuutkunuxws came, and he seen Gyoluugyat 33 alongside the fire, so he went over to the fire, of 34 course he was -- Suuwiigos was laying alongside the 35 fire putting heat on his back. 36 Q Could I just interrupt. You referred to Gyoluugyat, 37 he went in and he saw Gyoluugyat and he -- then you 38 said Suuwiigos. Was it Gyoluugyat or Suuwiigos that 39 he saw? 40 A It was Suuwiigos that he saw in Gyoluugyat's House. 41 Q Okay. Go ahead? 42 A Now Kuutkunuxws went and ruffled this fire, and there 43 were sparks come out, and it fell on Suuwiigos' back. 44 He never turned, and again Suuwiigos made the fire 45 flare up, more sparks. Suuwiigos never moved. So 46 Kuutkunuxws stepped back towards the door and he stood 47 there. This is when Suuwiigos got up with a club and 225 1 he went to Kuutkunuxws and asked him what he was 2 doing, and Kuutkunuxws never said anything. He said 3 "If you don't tell me what you're doing here", he 4 said, "I'll club you". He raised his club, 5 Kuutkunuxws never blinked, and that showed that he was 6 very brave, and Suuwiigos knew then too that 7 Kuutkunuxws was a very brave man. Right there he said 8 to Kuutkunuxws that he was a brave man and that if he 9 wanted to marry his sister or daughter he would let 10 her marry him. Now, so the two, Suuwiigos and 11 Kuutkunuxws, travelled together after he married, 12 Kuutkunuxws married Suuwiigos' lady. Now, they 13 travelled together, and this is when our crests came. 14 While going out looking for the Tsi tsa wit they came 15 across a big tree, and they made their camp underneath 16 this tree, and during the night they heard noises, and 17 it was coming out from the tree that they were under. 18 Now, Kuutkunuxws went up and to get -- to see what 19 he -- what was making this noise on this tree, and he 20 seen this thing, it was a human being, but it was a 21 giant human being. Now, he came down and told 22 Suuwiigos about it. Now Suuwiigos went up to see this 23 big human being. Now, this is when Suuwiigos got to 24 this figure, this human figure, the giant one. He 25 took it and knocked it down and swung it to the 26 ground. So they left, so when Suuwiigos, before he 27 left, he tell Kuutkunuxws "I will have that figure for 28 my crest". Now, this is why we have the crest in 29 Gyoluugyat's House of Gyadim Lax ganit is our crest. 30 Now, the second time -- am I still going? 31 MR. GRANT: I just want to give her a moment. Can you spell 32 that, please? 33 THE TRANSLATOR: G-y-a-d-i-m L-a-x-g-a-n-i-t 34 THE COURT: Now, that word is what, the name of the crest? 35 MR. GRANT: I'm sorry. 36 THE COURT: Is that word that was just spelled, which I won't attempt to pronounce, the name of the crest? Yes. Is that the name of the crest that you've just given? Yes. It's Gyadim Lax ganit. : Yes. And what would that translate as? The man of the tree. Before you go on, you said that Suuwiigos knocked this huge human being down? 37 38 A 39 MR. GRANT 40 Q 41 A 42 THE COURT 43 MR. GRANT 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 226 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 THE 8 9 MR. 10 THE 11 MR. 12 13 THE 14 MR. 15 16 17 18 THE 19 MR. 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 2 9 THE 3 0 MR. 31 32 33 34 35 THE 36 37 MR. 38 3 9 MR. 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Yes. Q Did he kill it or was it? A To my knowledge it didn't say in the oral history that he killed it, but he might have knocked him out or something, but the way it was done, that he that it would be his crest. COURT: I wasn't given the spelling of the name of the brave stranger. GRANT COURT GRANT The one who came and married his daughter? Yes. I'm sorry. Just one moment. What I would like to refer you to COURT: Well, can I not have the spelling? GRANT: Yes. It's G-u -- I'm sorry, it's in the pleadings that I'm referring to. The pleadings were not necessarily phonetically spelled. Okay. Go ahead then. TRANSLATOR: Kuutkunuxws. GRANT: Q I would like to ask you a question before you proceed. Is there a present holder of the name Kuutkunuxws? A Yes. Q Who is that? A Today it's held by William Morrison in Kispiox. Q And do you know a Chief named Woosim Lax ha? A Yes. Q And who is that? A Today it's Victor Mowatt. Get that spelled? TRANSLATOR: W-o-o-s-i-m L-a-x, underlined, h-a. GRANT: Q Is Woosim Lax ha related to Kuutkunuxws? A Yes. Q Are they in the same House? A I imagine they are, yes. COURT: I'm sorry. They're in the same House? A Yes. GOLDIE: Which is the other reference in the Statement of Claim. GRANT: Q The reference that I would like -- I'll ask is to paragraph 47 of the Statement of Claim filed on May 11th. I'll just ask you, the reference there is that the Plaintiff: "Woosimlaxha, also known as Victor Mowatt, suing on his ownbehalf and on behalf of all the members of the House of Gutginuxw." 227 THE MR. THE MR. 9 10 11 12 THE 13 MR. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 6 THE 27 2 8 MR. 29 3 0 MS. 31 THE 32 33 34 MR. 35 36 37 38 39 THE 4 0 MS. 41 42 43 THE 4 4 MS. 45 THE 4 6 MR. 47 A COURT A GRANT COURT GRANT Q A COURT GRANT Q Does that refer to Victor Mowatt and William Morrison's House? Yes. Who is Mr. Mowatt? Victor Mowatt. Which name does he hold? Yes. I haven't heard of him before. Okay. Which name does Victor Mowatt hold? Woosim Lax ha. All right, thank you. Just -- okay. Now, you had proceeded after the event under the tree and that crest. Could you go on with the adaawk? A In -- they still travelled on. Like I say, I wanted to do this as briefly, as I could. They -- they knew that they were on heels of some -- another group maybe, and they knew that they were near the place where they'll meet with other group of people, that there were going to have -- we say in Gitksan wil digitxw: Now, I would like to call upon my interpreter to say the word to tell the court what we mean when we say we wil digitxw. COURT: What is the word first? A Wil digitxw. GRANT: Okay. Miss Stevens can spell it and Miss Howard can explain. STEVENS: W-i-1 d-i-g-i-t-x-w. COURT: All right. Mr. grant what is the translator going to do now. Is the witness going to give the evidence in her dialect and then be translated? GRANT: Q Well, the witness has asked the translator to explain what Wil digitxw means. That's what I understood you asked? A Yes. COURT: Can you do that? HOWARD: Wil digitxw was when a group of people meet together and they have a war, or they have a fight amongst the two groups. COURT: A battle? HOWARD: Um-hum. COURT: Yes, all right. GRANT: Q Proceed? 228 1 A Now, again at nighttime they -- well, at dawn they go, 2 Kuutkunuxws and Suuwiigos and the people that are 3 doing battle, they camped again near a lake. Now, 4 they -- Suuwiigos didn't know just how far ahead these 5 people were from where they were, so anyway, he went 6 down to the lake to get some water. Now, just when he 7 got to the lake he seen shadows on the surface of this 8 lake, and he looked, he stopped, and he watched, and 9 he seen the movement, so he knew that the people they 10 were after were up in the trees just above them, so he 11 went back to his -- to Kuutkunuxws and to the other 12 people and told them "Our enemies are just above us", 13 so this is how they went, and of course they fought 14 the battle. Now, then again, this is how Gyoluugyat 15 received the crest of these shadows. Now, on our 16 blankets and on our -- a painting of our Houses we 17 have these figures. They're a group of people, and 18 they come in zig zag way on our blankets. Now, this 19 is 'Nii tsabim lax gan. The first one was Gyadim Lax 20 ganit. Now there is 'Nii tsabim lax gan, when there's 21 a group of people. And this is how we got our crest 22 again. Now, this is the way that the Gitksan people 23 get their crests, is anything unique that they come 24 across or they've seen they've taken it as their 25 crests. Now, the people that travel, any more unique 26 things happening you will find that in other House, 27 Chief's Houses. Our Chief has more crests than the 28 other House because they go out to look for these 29 things so they will have a crest, and who has the more 30 crests are the people it shows that they work 31 together, and they make it very strong. And this is 32 how these crests mean so much to us, is by looking for 33 it, and to keep it as ourselves in one House. Now, in 34 another House a Chief would have a crest. Now, we 35 can't borrow crest from other Houses. What House 36 belongs, their crest belongs to one House, is their 37 property. Now, these are how strong these crests 38 stand in the House of a Chief. No one can use other 39 Houses, Chief's Houses' what crests they have. If 40 they do they -- there's embarrasment of the Chief. 41 There has to be punishment. We go to the House of 42 that whoever took another person's crest. So this is 43 very firm in our laws even today, that we -- no one 44 will use another Chief's crest. That's their title 45 for that. 46 MR. GRANT: Madam interpreter, maybe spell the name of that last 47 crest that the witness gave. 229 1 THE TRANS 2 3 A 4 5 THE TRANS 6 MR. GRANT 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 A 13 14 15 16 THE COURT 17 18 19 MR. GRANT 20 THE COURT 21 A 22 THE COURT 23 A 24 THE COURT 25 MR. GRANT 26 Q 27 28 29 30 31 A 32 33 34 Q 35 A 36 37 Q 38 A 39 40 41 42 43 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A but I want to make sure Did the witness say LATOR: Apostrophe N-i-i-t-s-a-b-i-m L-a-x, underlined, g, underlined a-n. In our Gitksan word for crest is ayuuks, the word in the Gitksan for crest, ayuuks. LATOR: A-y-u-u-k-s. You were describing how Suuwiigos saw these shadows and then you explained how he took the shadows as the crest for your House, and you were saying how he went back to Kuutkunuxws and the other people. Do you want to proceed? I think I'll just leave it at that, because what is done would go under a different title, like my generation or something like that, and just leave it as it is right now. : Well, Mr. Grant, I'm sorry, that I didn't miss something, there was a battle. : After the shadows were seen. : Yes? Yes. : Did she say that? There was a battle. : All right. Thank you. Now, you've described how Kuutkunuxws -- Kuutkunuxws was at that with Suuwiigos. Do you recall, were there other Chiefs of other Houses from Gitan gasx that were with Suuwiigos in these battles, referring particularly to this last one that you described? Will you rephrase that again to me, please. I was thinking of other things, and I was cut -- I cut myself short on one part there. Okay. Well, did I interrupt you on an answer? The third battle that Kuutkunuxws and Suuwiigos went through was about a grizzly bear that they had shot. Um-hum? It was a bear, it was just a bear. Now, this was again how they got their crest of the split bear, Kuutkunuxws took one side, Suuwiigos took the other. Now, this is our crest of the half -- half of the bear belonged to Gyoluugyat. And that's the third crest that Suuwiigos -- And half of the bear belongs to? To Kuutkunuxws, yeah. And that is the same? Yes. 230 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT Is this an appropriate place to maybe stop, if we're not in the middle? Yes. Maybe we can take the morning adjournment. Well, all right, yes. We started early. We started early. Yes, all right. THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. This court is adjourned for 15 minutes minutes. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:00) I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein transcribed to the best of my skill and ability Graham D. Parker Official Reporter United Reporting Services Ltd. 231 1 2 3 4 5 THE COURT 6 MR. GRANT 7 Q 8 9 0 A 1 2 MR. GOLDI 231 (Proceedings resumed following short recess) MARY McKENZIE, Resumed: : Mr. Grant? Before you proceed, I just wanted to ask you if you can recall if there were chiefs of other Houses involved in the Suuwiigos wars? Yes. There is the house of 'Nii Kyap, Gwina nitxw, 'Wii Kaax, Luus. Those are the four that I have. C: Excuse me, can we get the spellings? 13 THE COURT: Would you give them to us again? 14 A 'Nii Kaax, Gwina nitxw, 'Wii Kaax and Luus. 15 THE TRANSLATOR: 'N-i-i, k-a-a-x; G-w-i-n-a, n-i-t-x-w; 'W-i-i, 16 k-a-a-x, and Luus. 17 THE COURT: Thank you. Can you tell me who holds those names today, if anybody? Today? 'Nii Kyap is held name of David Gunanoot, and Gwina nitxw is Solomon Jack, 'Wii Kaax, Neil Sterritt senior, Luus is Jeff Harris senior. Were those chiefs, did those chiefs live at Gitangasx as well at this time? Yes, at that time, yes. Can any other chief or the chief of any other House give the Suuwiigos Adaawk besides Gyoluugyat? Yes. Gwina nitxw, 'Wii Kaax and Luus would be the only people that would tell the Adaawk of Gyoluugyat, because they are involved in the battle they had, Suuwiigos had. Is there a person that holds the name Suuwiigos today? Yes. Who is that? Harry Brown. Is that Violet Brown's -- That's Violet Brown's son. Is he in your House? Yes. Before the break you said that you would be going into another part of the history, you referred to migrations, could you proceed and tell the court what happened after these battles? Suuwiigos left Gitangasx and he travelled down the river of a fishing place. They stayed there for a while then he went about and he chose the area where 18 MR. GRANT 19 Q 20 21 A 22 23 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 29 A 30 31 32 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 44 45 A 46 47 232 1 he think that there would be food there for his 2 people, that there would be forest there to do their 3 trapping and their hunting, so this is when Kuldo'o, 4 the village of Kuldo'o started, old Kuldo'o. When he 5 found this Kuldo'o -- I am getting ahead of myself, 6 getting excited here -- I am travelling fast. 7 Q Slow down in your travels. 8 A The chiefs that I named, like 'Nii Kyap, Gwina nitxw, 9 'Wii Kaax and Luus they left Gitangasx, because the 10 Suuwiigos found this village, they called it Old 11 Kuldo'o. Now these chiefs had a choice, if they 12 wanted to go with Gyoluugyat of Kuldo'o they could; if 13 they wanted to go to other village, that could be 14 done. Now, Gwina nitxw, 'Nii Kyap and 'Wii Kaax were 15 the chiefs that went to Giskaast. 16 Q You said Gwina nitxw, 'Nii Kyap -- 17 A And 'Wii Kaax. Then Madiik, Gwamoon, Hlo'oxs and Luus 18 they went to Kuldo'o. 19 Q Now, I want the court to understand that these are all 20 of the Lax Gibuu, now there will be other plaintiffs 21 who will refer on the Frog Clan and the Fireweed Clan, 22 but I am just referring of the chiefs of the Lax Gibuu 23 that moved down from Giskaast. So there were chiefs 24 of both the Frog and Fireweed who also moved? 25 A Yes. 2 6 Q Go ahead. 27 A When these Houses were erected at Kuldo'o -- now I 28 don't know how many years they were there. They lived 29 there, they had the village, and for a shortage of 30 probably food or the forest, there was -- you have to 31 have a certain kind of trees for your firewood. Now, 32 somehow they one by one these chiefs would leave 33 Kuldo'o. Now most of the chiefs went to Kispiox, they 34 preferred going to Kispiox and not only the Lax Gibuu, 35 it's the Frog Clan and the Fireweed Clan. They moved 36 into Kispiox. There again, by moving, the chiefs 37 moving into another village, there has to be a special 38 feasting. They have to approach the chiefs of Kispiox 39 and they have to put a feast on to ask the permission 40 of the chiefs of Kispiox that they move into Kispiox. 41 Now this is the kind of feasting that were held, each 42 House or each clan had to put a feasting for the 43 Kispiox chiefs to give permission to us to move down 44 to Kispiox. So, Hlo'oxs and Gyoluugyat's House were 45 the last two Houses that were left and -- 46 Q Where? 47 A At Kuldo'o. Now, a few of our elders in this 233 1 courtroom have seen those Houses. They were very old 2 and they wrote it down and I was told about it. Now, 3 this is why the -- in a Feasting House, they gave, my 4 people gave a feasting to enter into Kispiox. Now, 5 Kispiox people, the chief, selected that they give us 6 a table, a place in a Feasting House for us. Now this 7 is why we have our table in Kispiox and it's called 8 the Kuldo'o people's table and this is where we sit on 9 this table when there is a Feasting of the Giskaast 10 and the Frog. 11 Q Could I interject to move you back a bit? When you 12 were talking about the people moving down to Kuldo'o 13 and Giskaast from Gitangasx, you referred to 'Nii Kyap 14 and 'Wii Kaax who went to Gisagas and Suuwiigos and 15 Gyoluugyat went to Kuldo'o; can you tell us were there 16 other chiefs of the Lax Gibuu that went from Gitangasx 17 to Kuldo'o? 18 MR. GOLDIE: Excuse me, is this still part of the Adaawk? 19 MR. GRANT: Yes. 20 Q Is this the history of the people moving from 21 Gitangasx to Kuldo'o, that is part of the Adaawk that 22 you would tell? 23 A It has to be part of the Adaawk. You can't leave it 24 out, because there would be no Adaawk about it. It 25 has to go in the Adaawk. 26 Q Can you tell me were there other Wolf chiefs that 27 moved down from Gitangasx to Kuldo'o after Suuwiigos 28 and Gyoluugyat? 2 9 A Luus moved down, like I said, and Madiik and Gwamoon. 30 Now, these are not the only :ax Gonii people who moved 31 down, the other plaintiffs that will take the stand 32 will have to answer because I have got no authority of 33 different Houses, I am speaking of my own, Gyoluugyat. 34 Q And you are speaking of your wil'naa't'ahl as well? 35 A Yes, that's what I am speaking for. 36 Q Was there a name for Kuldo'o in Gitksan? 37 A It's Kuldo'o. It's the Indian name, Kuldo'o. It 38 means out in the wilderness. 39 Q This movement of the people from Gitangasx to Kuldo'o, 40 did this happen before the arrival of the Europeans? 41 A Long before. 42 Q Are we talking in this case of hundreds of years ago 43 from now or are we talking of thousands of years ago? 44 MR. GOLDIE: Well, is that kind of chronology part of the 4 5 Adaawk? 4 6 MR. GRANT: 47 Q Yes, if you can tell that from the Adaawk, does the 234 1 2 A 3 MR. GOLDI 4 MR. GRANT 5 A 6 THE COURT 7 A 8 THE COURT 9 A 10 THE COURT 11 12 A 13 THE COURT 14 MR. GRANT 15 Q 16 17 18 19 20 21 A 22 23 THE COURT 24 A 25 MR. GRANT 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 THE COURT 31 32 33 34 35 MR. GRANT 36 37 38 39 Q 40 41 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 MR. GOLDI 46 47 Adaawk describe when it occurred in relation to now? Yes. E: In terms of -- : In terms of now. It would be hundreds of years ago. : That's part of the Adaawk, is it? Yes. : That it is hundreds of years ago? Yes. Well, I could say a thousand years. : Or you could say a thousand years or you could say thousands of years? Thousands of years. : All right. Now, I interjected and you were describing the movement of the -- of Gyoluugyat from Kuldo'o to Kispiox, you had indicated that other chiefs had moved from Kuldo'o to Kispiox as well. Could you give the names of some of those other chiefs and what clan they were in that moved from Kuldo'o to Kispiox? Now, I could only say that the Frog Clan moved down and -- : I am sorry, the Frog Clan moved? Yes. And the Fireweed, Giskaast people. Were there other Wolf chiefs that moved down before Gyoluugyat moved down from Gisagas to Kuldo'o? Yes. Can you name those chiefs of your clan? : I am sorry, Mr. Grant, I am at, in my notes, talking about movement of the Gyoluugyat from -- to Kispiox and she said that as well the Frog Clan and the Fireweed people. Are you now going back and asking about movement to Kuldo'o? : No, I am asking movement from Kuldo'o to Kispiox. She has described that Fireweed Clan people and Frog Clan people moved to Kispiox as well and she described that Gyoluugyat moved down. I am asking if there are other -- and Gyoluugyat is in the Wolf Clan. I am asking if there were other chiefs of the Wolf Clan that moved to Kispiox? Yes. Besides Gyoluugyat? Yes. E: Excuse me, before you go any further, Mrs. McKenzie. My lord, if the process of establishing the Adaawk 235 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. MR. MR. GRANT Q A Q as having something which merits a special status is to have validity, I think, with respect, that my friend simply ought to say what does the Adaawk say about this and what does the Adaawk say about that. Otherwise, it is difficult to distinguish between what is a story, and the witness made a distinction on that yesterday, and what is part of the Adaawk. And I would ask my friend to exhaust Mrs. McKenzie's memory, which is very good, as to what the Adaawk actually says, rather than asking questions which don't enable us to distinguish the source of the information. THE COURT: Well, that would be a convenient way to proceed, Mr. Grant. I don't think that I should tell counsel how they must ask questions. It would certainly be convenient because it would let us know whether we are receiving Adaawk-type evidence or other type evidence. Maybe I will start by saying: Because you moved into two migrations, one I think Gisagas to Kuldo'o and then from Kuldo'o to Kispiox, you described that, the migration of Gisagas to Kuldo'o, as part of the Adaawk? Yes. The history of the migration from Kuldo'o to Kispiox, is that part of the Adaawk? A Yes. Q Then I would ask you, does the Adaawk say what other chiefs of the Wolf Clan moved to Kispiox from Kuldo'o? GOLDIE: Well, couldn't we just have her tell us what the Adaawk says about the migration? GRANT: Mr. Goldie, if you let me -- let her answer. Sorry, my lord. Q Just proceed. And you understand what I am referring to? A Yes. Q Go ahead. A Well, with the interruption, would you rephrase your question? Q I asked whether the Adaawk refers to other chiefs of the Wolf Clan who moved from Kuldo'o to Kispiox? And then you can just proceed with that, the history of that movement from Kuldo'o to Kispiox. A Like I said, that every House of a chief has their own Adaawk. Now what I am expressing now is the Adaawk of how Suuwiigos lived in Gitangasx, how he fought these battles, that's the Adaawk, and how the movement of the other chiefs, when Kuldo'o was founded. This is in the Adaawk. Without saying how the movement of the 236 1 people, it has to go down and an Adaawk, it's not just 2 a story. Adaawk in Gitksan language is a powerful 3 word of describing what the House stands for, what the 4 chief stands for, what the territory stands for is the 5 Adaawk. It's not a story, it's just how people 6 travelled is the Adaawk. And it's the most important 7 thing in Gitksan is to have an Adaawk. Without Adaawk 8 you can't very well say you are a chief or you own a 9 territory. Without the Adaawk, it has to come first, 10 the Adaawk, names come after, songs come after, crests 11 come after it and the territory that's held, fishing 12 places, all those come into one and that's the Adaawk. 13 It's not a story, it's Adaawk to the Gitksan people. 14 Q Can you proceed with the -- what you were describing 15 about the migration from Kuldo'o to Kispiox and just 16 because there has been so many interruptions, my note 17 was that you were describing how Gyoluugyat had to 18 meet and feast with the Kispiox chiefs to move there. 19 That's where we left off. Just go ahead. 20 A Yes. Well, this feasting was on the Kispiox had 21 accepted the Gyoluugyat and the other four Houses, to 22 move down to Kispiox. And this is when Gyoluugyat 23 built his Longhouse in Kispiox and we were accepted 24 into the village of Kispiox. That's when Hlo'oxs 25 erected the House and Madiik and Gwamoon, they erected 26 the House in Kispiox. 27 Q This is at the time when they were separate Houses? 28 A Yes. 29 Q Is that what you have been describing to us now, is 30 that a summation of the Adaawk of Gyoluugyat? 31 A Yes. 32 Q Is there anything further you would like to say from 33 the Adaawk right now? 34 A I think I have tried to illustrate what all goes into 35 Adaawk and what it means to the Gitksan people. The 36 Adaawk is the most important. Today, these Adaawks 37 are told, like the Gitksan people didn't write 38 anything, it was all oral, from one generation to 39 another. But today these Adaawks will go because our 40 young people have educated themselves to write these 41 and we have our language, our own alphabets that they 42 can put it down on paper now. So that these Adaawks, 43 as long as it's on paper, black and white, it will 44 never diminish at all. It will still be there, like 45 it has been before. It goes around like a windmill, 46 it goes around and that's how our Adaawks are. It 47 goes from one generation to another and no one changes 237 1 2 3 4 THE COURT 5 6 A 7 MR. GRANT 8 THE COURT 9 MR. GRANT 10 THE COURT 11 12 MR. GRANT 13 14 15 THE 16 17 MR. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Q 32 33 34 35 36 37 A 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 COURT GRANT Q A Q A it. In the Adaawk, no one changes it. Like the law of the country we live on today, it's called Canada, our Province is B. C, laws are made -- Mrs. McKenzie, we are getting beyond the realm of evidence. I am trying to put this -- I think — This is not evidence, Mr. Grant. She is trying to -- let her explain what Adaawk is. I understand all that but I think you really have to get on with some evidence. We had all this yesterday. I would ask leave of the court to allow her to finish the sentence she is finishing and then proceed with the evidence. If you want to make an issue of it, I think we ought to get on with some evidence. I will proceed. What you have been describing is the Adaawk and you have completed your summation of the Adaawk? Yes. And what the court has referred to is the fact that we have described what the Adaawk was and you have explained, I am asking you have you explained to the court, through what you said yesterday and today, what the Adaawk is and what it means to the Gitksan? Yes. But right now I am trying to point out that our Adaawks never change from when our people thousands of years ago or hundreds of years ago, they set this up for us and it's never changed. And I don't think it will ever change. You described the beginning, before you started to tell your Adaawk, that this Adaawk has been told in the Feast, could you tell the court now when, in the Gitksan Feast process, are Adaawks told? In other words, at what kinds of Feasts and why are they told and to whom are they told? In a feasting of a burial of a chief, these Adaawks are not told deeply, it's just a changing of a successor is a burial Feast. But when a totem pole is erected, that's when these Adaawks come out of, of the erection of a totem pole, our crests are carved on these totem poles and they, these questions tell the Adaawk of the family and erecting of a totem pole, the chiefs all gather at an erection, the chief tells, illustrates or tells the story of the Adaawk of these crests. Now, there is a pause there somewhere, if one person thinks that one crest is not supposed to be on 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 17 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 37 3 8 MR. GRANT 39 40 41 42 THE COURT 43 A 44 THE COURT 4 5 MR. GRANT 46 Q 47 238 that totem pole, they say it right then. So, if everything, all the crests are on there, everybody says, it's all right, that's when these chiefs come with their speeches, putting the power and the blessing on this totem pole, of the Adaawk that this totem pole represents. This is the kinds of feasting. And this is done in a feasting House where the chiefs give their blessing and their power to the chief that erects the totem pole. And would these include the chiefs of the Lax See'l or Frog and the chiefs of the Giskaast as well as the Lax Gibuu? Yes, all the chiefs of the three clans. How often has this occurred with respect to Gyoluugyat's House in, let us put a time perspective on it, in your lifetime? How often would the Adaawk have been told in the feasts, the Gyoluugyat Adaawk have been told in the feasts? Whenever there is, like I said, whenever there is a totem pole raising or a headstone raising, these Adaawks come out and these, everything goes, is repeated in the Feasting House where names are from and how these names were collected, how these crests were found. And you referred yesterday that your House had a totem pole raising some years ago; is that right? Yes. When was that? 1949. And you referred to the deaths of some chiefs, such as the former Gwamoon, Peter Robinson, were there headstone raisings for those chiefs? Yes. And was the Adaawk told at those headstone raisings? Yes, like I said, every time a totem pole is raised, every time a headstone is raised, the Adaawks are repeatedly told in a Feasting House. : My lord, I would like to move into a new area and it's been partially covered by the witness's description of the Adaawk but it's the area of the crest. : Do we have a date for Peter Robinson's death? 1935. : All right. Thank you. Now, you have described the crest of the man that lives in the tree and that's one of the crests of 1 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 38 A 39 40 41 42 43 Q 44 45 46 47 239 Gyoluugyat's House? Yes. You described the crest of the half grizzly, that's one of the crests of Gyoluugyat's House? Yes. You have described the Crests of the Shadows, I believe, the shadows from the tree? Yes, reflection in the lake. That's one of Gyoluugyat's crests? Yes. Does Gyoluugyat have a blanket today or have you seen a blanket of Gyoluugyat? I have an old one that has the figures of the people of the 'Niitsabim Lax gan. That is the people in the trees; is that right? Yes. Did you see a crest on the headstone of Nicodemus Gyoluugyat? Yes, it's right in the village of Gisagas, and that was erected, I am not sure of the year, but I have seen the headstone and on top of that headstone was a figure of a human being with a bow and arrow, and that represents Suuwiigos, so when we use our Nax nok, that's when we have this bow and arrow. If I went with you to that graveyard today, would I see that crest? No, you won't. What happened? Because it was taken off, it was stolen. You referred earlier to your braclets and you referred I believe to the crest of your clan, the wolf, you referred to the grizzly, which you have described? Yes. You also referred to the ram? Yes. Could you tell the court why you have that crest or is that a crest of Gyoluugyat? Yes, it is a crest of Gyoluugyat. It's called Dibe, we call it the ram Dibe. And 'Wii Kaax went goat hunting in the ram and he spent overnight in the peaks of the mountain but he managed to come down without no one's aid and this is why he has the crest of the ram. I would like to refer you to tab eight of the exhibit, and the second page there. Now, this is a photograph or a photocopy of a photograph out of the book of Barbeau's book on totem poles of the Gitksan. And I just wanted to know if you could recognize -- I am 240 1 2 3 4 THE COURT 5 MR. GRANT 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 11 12 Q 13 14 A 15 THE COURT 16 MR. GRANT 17 THE TRANS 18 MR. GRANT 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 24 THE COURT 25 26 A 27 THE COURT 28 29 A 30 31 THE COURT 32 A 33 34 35 THE COURT 36 37 A 38 39 MR. GRANT 40 Q 41 42 43 A 44 45 Q 46 A 47 Q referring particularly to the one that's numbered three underneath it, it's the biggest, it's the second from the -- : Number three. : Yes, number three. Do you recognize that? Yes. Can you explain to the court what that is? This is the totem pole of Gyoluugyat and the grizzly, the grizzly bear has our crest, the figure on top is the 'Nii Gyadim Lax ganit. That's our crest. Is that the half grizzly or the grizzly that was made into the hide? The grizzly made into the hide. : What's the figure on top, please? : Do you want to spell that word? LATOR: 'N-i-i, g-y-a-d-i-m, l-a-x, g-a-n-i-t. Just to refresh us, which of the crests of the history you have told us is that, is that the crest of the people in the trees? Yes. It could be both. Gyadim and and the grizzly is the one that Suuwiigos wore. : You said it could be, it was the people in the trees or it could be what? The man in the trees. : I thought you were suggesting it might be two different things? Yes, in Gitksan it represents two, either one. But on that it's 'Niitsabim. : What are the two, please? The other 'Nii Gyadim Lax ganit, is the figure on the ground, that's the 'Nii Gyadim Lax ganit. The other the reflection in the lakes is 'Niitsabim. : It could be the people in the trees or the or the figure on the ground? The 'Nii Gyadim Lax ganit is the man of the tree and 'Niisabim Lax gan. Is what you are saying you could have a crest on your pole of the people in the trees as well so you could have both? Yes. That's the figure we have on our totem pole that's in Kispiox today. Is this the pole that was raised had in 1949? Yes. That is what I was going to ask you about, what are 241 A MR. GRANT 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 THE 18 19 MR. 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 THE A Q A COURT GRANT the crests on that pole? We didn't put too many crests on that pole when it was erected, but we did put the people in the trees, 'Nii Gyadim Lax ganit at the bottom. : My lord, the area I would like to move into now is an area, fairly extensive area, of this witness's evidence, the area of the feasts. Now, I would like you to explain when you learned of the feasts and how you learned about the process of the feasts and the seating of the feasts. May I say to you that this is quite a lengthy thing for me to explain and seeing the clock's hands go round and round, would it be better if I take it up the afternoon? Would you like to take a break now? Yes. : All right. We will adjourn, then, and is it convenient to come back, say, at 1:30? : Yes, my lord. at (Proceedings Adjourned at 12:05 p.m.) h2 I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein to the best of my skill and ability. Wilf Roy Official Reporter United Reporting Service Ltd. Mary McKenzie (for Plaintiffs) (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 1:30) 37 3 8 THE COURT 39 40 41 42 4 3 MR REGISTRAR: Order in court. Witness, I remind you, you are still under oath. Can I have one matter straightened out before we go on. I have two words, and it may be my writing, but 44 45 THE 4 6 MR. 47 THE A-y-o-o-k, I have that as being law. And I have A-y-u-u-k-s as being crests. Is that correct? A He means Ayuuks. GRANT: He's referring to Ayuuks and Ayook. A They're two separate words. COURT: They're spelled as I have stated? GRANT: Yes. Is that correct, Madam Translator? TRANSLATOR: Mm-hmm. 1 MR. GRANT 2 THE COURT 3 4 MR. GRANT 5 Q 6 7 8 9 A 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 Q 42 43 A 44 45 Q 46 47 A 242 : Yes. : I was afraid my writing had led me into two meanings for one word. Gyoluugyat, I would like to ask you now about the Feasts, and I would like you to tell the court when you started attending Feasts and how you learned about the process of the Feasts? Before I attended any Feasting my grandmother had to give a little Feasting to a head Chief of the Kispiox. There he asked and told the head Chiefs that I've come to a time when I should know the rules in the Feasting House and all the Chiefs' names and how they're to be seated in the Feast House. This I had to learn by attending each Feasting, and the Chiefs agreed, so I went with my grandmother, and I was just eight years old then, and at that time I wasn't given a seat or anything, I had to sit on the floor alongside of her. And what did she teach you about what you could and could not do at the Feast while you were a child? No children were allowed in a Feasting, so this is why they had to give a Feasting for me, so the chief would allow me, and when they gave their permission I went with her, and of course there was -- no one had to keep bobbing up and down amongst the head Chiefs and to talk out loudly, but to just sit and watch every movement of what takes place in a Feasting House. All the names, when the Chiefs entered the Feasting House, there's a person at the door that calls the names of the Chief that's entering, and then there are the seaters. They would have three or four, and with them they would have what we call the talking stick, and this is when the name is called out the person decides where that Chief sits, knocks on the floor with the talking stick as the Chief walks to his seat in a Feasting House. Now, this is the very respect, and the Chief alone has to watch, listen to what is going on in the Feasting House. You have to be very careful of how you enter and how you sit on a chair provided for you. There are different kinds of Feasts, I understand from what you've already said; is that right? Yes. There's a whole lot of different types of Feastings. Would what you've just described apply to all of those Feasts? Yes. 1 Q 2 3 A 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 31 A 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 Q 40 41 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 46 47 Q 243 Okay. Can you describe for the court some of the types of Feasts that are held by the Gitksan? Starting from a child is born they're given the name, and a piercing of ears and puberty, and then a second name is given to a child. When they reach the age of adult there's a name given for this person, and if he or she is in line of becoming a Chief a name is given to that person, and it shows in the Feasting House just who are the people that are in line of becoming a Chief by doing -- giving a Feasting and given an extra name of this person, and of course in the Feasting House this person will sit in front of the head Chief. This is the old seating of the Feasting House. They didn't use tables at that time, all seated around the Feast House. And did you instruct me or my assistants as to how this old seating was of Gyoluugyat's House? Yes. I would like to refer the witness to the first page of tab 3 of Exhibit 2. I would ask you if you recognize that as a visual description of what you informed me? Yes. You don't hold it this way, you set it this way. It would be on the side of the building this way. So you're actually referring, you would look at it with the binding to the top? Yes. Is how you would look at it? Yes. Well, could you explain this seating and what it represents for the court? Where it's marked X there in front of Gyoluugyat we have the name Hak', and that's held by my grandson, Kenny McKenzie, and in front of Hak' is Dibe, is my brother who holds that name. Now, this shows that when I die this person moves up and takes the Gyoluugyat, and this person down here moves up, so we select another person to take the name of that Nax nok that is seated around the fireplace here. Now, you've referred to -- just for the record to be clear, you've referred to one person moves up. Who would move up into Gyoluugyat's seat? Hak' would. He would take the Gyoluugyat. And who would move into Hak's seat? Dibe. And then that gives the vacant seat down here, so the family has to choose a person to be put in there to hold a Nax nok name. Now, beside Dibe I note there's the name Suuwiigos? 244 1 A 2 Q 3 4 A 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 10 A 11 12 Q 13 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 MR. GRANT 36 THE COURT 37 A 38 THE COURT 39 A 40 41 MR. GRANT 42 Q 43 A 44 45 46 47 Yes. Harry Brown. Is that the name of the warrior you were describing this morning? Yes. Okay. Now, could you describe the relationship of these people beside you on both sides of Gyoluugyat? Those are my wil 'naa t'ahl. Okay. Now, is the -- in this chart here are there -- are these lines that are drawn, are those tables? No. They're the seat. They use benches at the time to make them all go around. Okay. And you indicated you would look at this with the binding to the top. What is behind you, what would be at the top of the page? Is that the wall or are there other -- The wall, yes. Where were the Feasts at which this seating was used by Gyoluugyat? In the old Feasting House or the Chiefs' Houses in the village. In which village? Yeah. In Kispiox and Giitan maaxs. Now, could you proceed to tell the other types of Feasts that there are? Besides what I have repeated this morning, the types of Feasts that were held? Um-hum? Like the marriage? Yes? The divorce. Yes? The adoption. Yes? The shame Feast. : Yes. : I'm sorry? Shame, S-h-a-m-e. : Yes? There's the, what we say in Gitksan word, the coming back in. That's -- you need a -- Could you say it again? What this means, I'll try and express to you what this coming back in means. There would be one Chief that would not attend a Feasting for some time, and the reason for that is for the family to know themselves, and he doesn't enter, he doesn't sit, and his seat is 1 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q 14 A 15 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 21 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 26 27 A 28 29 Q 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 38 Q 39 40 41 42 A 43 44 45 46 47 245 empty, yet the food is put in that, so -- Put in his place, you mean? In his place. Um-hum? So when the Chief decides that he wants to go back, maybe the problem was solved amongst themselves or to another Chief, he decides to come back into the Feasting House, so he puts on a Feast and he tells the people that he's going to be seated at his place again, so this is how it's done by some Chiefs that don't attend a Feasting for some time. That's another Feast there. Is there a Gitksan word for that type of Feast? I'm sorry. That name just won't come into my mind now. Okay. Maybe if I went on a little I'll remember. Go ahead, just go ahead with other kinds of Feasts? When -- of course when there's a totem pole raising and the head stone, and the drying of the pole is another Feasting. Drying of the pole? Yes. Could I ask you, is the pole raising and the head stone Feast, are those two different types of Feasts, or are they one type of Feast? It's one type only. Some Chiefs prefer raising the totem pole, others they have on the head stone. Okay. And you've already, I believe, described to us the burial Feast? Yes. You've referred to that? Yes. Is there -- and that's different than the head stone or pole raising Feast? Yes. That's the transfer of the name at the burial Feast. When a Chief dies, between the time of his death and the burial Feast are there any other kinds of Feasts? In other words, between the time the person dies and the night of the burial Feast, is there any Feasts? There are only a few head Chiefs that lived long enough. Like they've taken a Chief name and been a Chief for many many years, and in his time, whatever happens into his House, he has to have a Feast. This is the -- to have the witnesses there to prove that this is happening into the family. Now, when a Chief 246 1 is far in years and there's only very few people, 2 Chiefs, would reach the age that they have to put 3 another Feasting on, and that's called the drying of 4 the totem pole. We call that in Gitksan Gwalgwa. 5 THE TRANSLATOR: Gwalgwa is spelled G-w-a-1-g-w-a. 6 MR. GRANT: 7 Q Proceed? 8 A This is similar to a retirement thing of the Chief. 9 He doesn't retire, but he's reached that stage. 10 Q Does he retain -- would the Chief retain his name 11 after this Gwalgwa Feast? 12 A Yes, still does. 13 Q Okay. Can you recall any other types of Feasts? If 14 you wish, I'll ask you about some other events? 15 A Yes, all right. I've forgotten how many I've said 16 already. 17 Q Yes, right. I know, you've said quite a few. When 18 you referred to the Gwalgwa, I was asking you about a 19 different type of event. If a Chief dies is the 20 burial Feast held before or after he is buried? 21 A Will you phrase that again, please? 22 Q Okay. When a Chief dies is the burial Feast held 23 after the funeral when he is buried? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Between the time of his death and his burial is 26 there any other Feasts that are held by the Chiefs? 27 A Of the successor of that Chief you mean? 28 Q Yes. Between the day he dies and his actual burial at 29 the burial Feast is there any other Feast that is 30 held? 31 A Not until a totem pole is raised by the new Chief. 32 Q How long is the process ceremonies, how long do the 33 Gitksan usually wait before the person -- between a 34 person's death and the burial? Is there a number of 35 days, or is he buried immediately? 36 A No. There are ceremonies that take place. 37 Q Um-hum? 38 A And that's where all Chiefs get together and they 39 have -- they come with their regalias on and they sing 40 there dirge song, that's there mourning song that each 41 Chief has. 42 Q The dirge song? 43 A Yes, um-hum. They have this, and they -- when they 44 speak they speak to the dead person, that's in Gitksan 45 law. We don't speak to the new Chief yet, but we talk 46 to the late Chief. We -- we put out what all he has 47 done in his lifetime, we have to repeat the adaawk. 247 1 This is when the adaawk comes in again, that all his 2 lifetime what Feast he's put on and everything, this 3 is said at this gathering of just Chiefs alone. 4 Q And does this occur before the funeral? 5 A Yes, it does. 6 Q Is this -- you called this a ceremony. Would this be 7 a Feast, or is it something else? 8 A It's a ceremony where singing is taking place. 9 Q Um-hum. 10 A All -- like I said, the Chiefs come out with their 11 regalias, and adaawk of the Chief is said by several 12 Chiefs until it's all in one adaawk. 13 Q Okay. If a Chief is injured, is hit for example, is 14 there a Feast for that process? 15 A There is. 16 Q What is it called? 17 A In English we call that the Shame Feast, but there are 18 different types of Feast when a Chief is hurt or 19 shamed, embarrassed. If, like in just recent times I 20 have three, just to tell the court that this is still 21 continuing, what happened years ago, and it's still 22 continuing today. While fishing last year down at the 23 coast one of the Chiefs fell in the ocean. He was 24 taken out. Now, when he returned to Kispiox he put a 25 Feast on, and we called it Gil k'al gimks, to wipe off 26 the ocean from him. 27 THE TRANSLATOR: Gil k'al gimks, G-i-1 k-a-1 g-i-m-k-s. 2 8 MR. GRANT: 29 Q Go ahead? 30 A In the village of Kispiox a lady Chief was injured in 31 the streets of Kispiox. When she recovered she put on 32 a Feasting. It took her two or three years before she 33 recovered from that injury. She put on a Feast just 34 last winter to wipe her blood off the street. It's 35 called Sa gimk ihlee'e. 36 THE TRANSLATOR: Sa gimk ihlee'e, S-a g-i-m-k i-h-1-e-e-'-e. 37 MR. GRANT: 38 Q What -- could you describe to the court what the 39 injury was? You said it was something that happened 40 in Kispiox to this woman Chief? 41 A This lady Chief was knocked down by a vehicle, and she 42 was injured very very much. She had to be in 43 Vancouver hospital about a year. She lost her speech. 44 Q You said you had three examples of this? 45 A Another example is when a person is embarrassed by 46 another group, like last summer in the City of 47 Smithers a lady Chief again was embarrassed. Her case 248 1 came up as theft at that time, so after the court was 2 finished she put on a Feasting to wipe off that 3 embarrassment, and that word theft, that she steals 4 something, that's no longer to be remembered towards 5 her when she put this Feast on. 6 Q Can you give the names of these three Chiefs that were 7 involved? 8 A The first one was Gitluudahlxw, Pete Muldoe of 9 Kispiox. 10 Q He's one of the plaintiffs in this trial? 11 A He's one of the Plaintiffs. The second one is Edith 12 Gawa from Kispiox. Yahl is her name. And the third 13 one is Mabel Forsythe. Now, I don't remember her 14 Chief name. 15 MR. GRANT: Madam Interpreter, could you spell those first two 16 Chief names. 17 THE TRANSLATOR: Gitluudahlxw, G-i-t-1-u-u-d-a-h-l-x-w, Yahl, 18 Y-a-h-1. 19 MR. GRANT: 20 Q Is there any ceremony when a young Gitksan person has 21 there first kill? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Could you tell the court what happens then? 24 A When a young man in their teens, they go out hunting. 25 Now, this young boy will have to go with his father or 26 his his wilxsi witxw, and his first kill, first moose 27 he's killed, his deer, he has to bring that back to 28 the village and that, whatever it is, a moose, has to 29 be given out. The family doesn't take the meat 30 itself, it has to be given to the wilxsi bagxws first 31 until every House has a very small portion of that 32 first kill, and a Feast is given to honour that young 33 person of his first kill. 34 Q Does this still happen today? 35 A Yes. 36 Q Do you know of any examples of it happening? 37 A Niis Gimi Nuu's son, I forgot which it is. Is it 38 Clifford or Vincent, I think it is, had his first 39 kill, and the gifts were given to the relatives of his 40 father from his first kill. 41 MR. GRANT: Can you spell that Chief's name. 42 THE TRANSLATOR: N-i-i-s G-i-m-i N-u-u. 43 THE COURT: Is that the young boy's name or his father's name. 44 THE TRANSLATOR: The father. 45 A The father's name. 4 6 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. 4 7 MR. GRANT: 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 249 And when did that happen. You said -- It's about a year ago. You've described these wars in your adaawk of Suuwiigos. Did the Gitksan have any Feasts at the time they would go to war? To my knowledge they didn't. Maybe some of the later Plaintiffs may be asked that question, but to my 8 knowledge I've never heard of one. 9 Q What about if there's a settlement of peace between 10 the Gitksan and another group, is there a Feast 11 ceremony for that? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And what is that called in Gitksan, or in English, if 14 you want to explain it that way? 15 A I can't find a name for peace in my language right 16 away. But when this Feast is -- I'll give the court 17 an explanation of this Feast. When this Feast of 18 peace is put on, this is when Eagle down is used Mix 19 Kaax is used. 20 MR. GRANT: Would you would spell that, please. 21 THE TRANSLATOR: Mix Kaax, M-i-x K-a-a-x. 22 MR. GRANT: 2 3 Q Um-hum. 24 A After things are settled there would be quite a bit of 25 argument, of course, but when both sides agree, and 26 then the both parties have a young nephew to make a 27 dance for the parties. They put on their regalias, 28 they have their head dress on, and in that top of that 29 head dress are the Eagle down they've filled up with 30 Eagle down, and these dancers, these nephews of young 31 Chiefs, they have -- each one has their song of one 32 side. This person does the dance with the flowing of 33 the Eagle down to the people. That means peace, and 34 the same way with the other, so Eagle down is very 35 important to us. When -- if you don't enter into a 36 Feasting House, a Chief doesn't enter right away, 37 words keep going to that Chief and he's still not 38 there. That's when Eagle down is used again. They 39 take the Eagle down and take it to this Chief. They 40 put it on him. He can't say no, and he can't say he 41 can't come, because that Eagle down is put on his 42 head. He has to come, as the importance of the Eagle 43 down is peace. 44 Q This second example you gave of when a Chief doesn't 45 come into the Feast, that would be not a peace Feast, 46 that's another use of the Eagle down? 47 A Yes. Another use. 250 1 Q Yesterday you spoke to us about Gwamoon and that 2 Gwamoon could move out and set up her own House, and 3 you would describe that she would raise a pole. 4 Before raising the pole would Gwamoon have to have a 5 Feast if she made that decision to move out of your 6 House? 7 A Yes. When a pole is to be erected there is a lot of 8 different little ceremonies in between that. The 9 cutting of the pole first, there's a ceremony just for 10 the village people when that pole is cut. Then it's 11 taken into the village to be carved, and before that 12 pole is carved there's a little ceremony again. Songs 13 are sung by the head Chiefs, gifts are given out, very 14 small gifts are given out indicating that chips that 15 came off that pole when it's carved. 16 Q And I'm sorry? 17 A And the Chiefs that attend this give their blessing of 18 the pole, that their blessing would be that whatever 19 is carved on that totem pole will be the crests of 20 that family only. 21 Q Did your grandmother ever tell you about a type of 22 Feast relating to a name that had not been passed on? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Would you tell the court what kind of Feast that is, 25 and if you wish, you can go onto describe it? 26 A That is another type of Feasting. When a Chief -- 27 I'll say Chief. It doesn't matter if it's the head 28 Chief or just the sub-Chiefs, wings, things are -- 29 sometime it takes -- it takes days for -- to arrange 30 to bury a Chief, a very high Chief, and if no one is 31 selected at that time of the burial some families, 32 they say will bury their name with that person. What 33 we say in our language "Dim tk'al wok'dimhl wa". Now 34 my interpreter will explain what that is. 35 THE INTERPRETER: We will bury the name of the person. 36 THE TRANSLATOR: Dim tk'al wok'dimhl wa D-i-m t-k-'-a-l 37 w-o-k-'-d-i-m-h-1. 38 THE COURT: I'm sorry. d-i-m — 39 THE TRANSLATOR: t-k — 40 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't get beyond d-i-m. 41 THE TRANSLATOR: t-k-'-a-l w-o-k-'-d-i-m-h-1. 42 THE COURT: Thank you. 43 A For a time, maybe a year or a couple of years, the 44 family decides and has selected a person that's 45 capable of taking the name of this Chief, so they call 46 the other Chiefs of different Clans and they're told 47 about this, and they say it's all right with the other 251 1 Chiefs, so they put on a Feasting again to let the 2 people know. Now, this is part of adaawk again. It 3 has to go to the -- to the House of this Chief that's 4 their adaawk. Now, when this name is brought out from 5 the ground, again there's Feastings of opening the 6 grave, of digging out the soil, and they bring the 7 name out, they put a Feasting for that. Then another 8 Feasting is set when this person is selected, and he's 9 taking the Feast House, the names put on him, so this 10 is how these names -- not often that this happens, but 11 maybe once or twice it had happened, so it has to go 12 in the adaawk of the Gitksan people that these things 13 happen. 14 Q I would like to move into another area about the Feast 15 with you now, and you've described the seating at 16 your -- of your wil 'naa t'ahl, Gyoluugyat, but I 17 would like you to expand on that and explain to the 18 court the different seating -- the significance of the 19 seating in the Feast Hall and then I would like you to 20 explain the seating of different -- all of the Clans 21 at the different Feasts, and you can start by a Wolf 22 Feast in Kispiox? 23 A Yes, all right. 24 MR. GRANT: Just hold it, let me — yes. Feast held by the Lax 25 Gibuu Clan at Kispiox. Maybe you can explain the 26 importance of the seating. 27 THE COURT: Is it described in one of these charts? 2 8 MR. GRANT: 29 Q Yes. The chart -- I will be referring firstly to the 30 chart at tab 4, which was prepared for the assistance 31 of the court. Now, again did you instruct me and my 32 associates as to the seating at a Wolf Feast in 33 Kispiox? 34 A Yes. 35 Q And was a diagram prepared that you reviewed? 36 A Yes. 37 Q Okay. I just ask you to look at the chart at tab 4 of 38 the document book, and I'll ask you if that's the 39 seating diagram for the funeral Feast or for Feasts of 40 the Lax Gibuu at Kispiox? 41 A This is the Feasting at Gitan maaxs 42 Q That's the Feasting at Gitan maaxs? 43 A By the Wolf band, yes. 44 Q My Lord, it's labeled at the top "'seating diagram for 45 funeral Feast hosted by Lax Gibuu at Kispiox". That 46 should be "at gitan maaxs". But is that a Feasting 47 prepared by the Wolf Clan? 1 A 2 MR. GRANT 3 4 5 6 MR. BAXTE 7 8 9 MR. GRANT 10 Q 11 12 13 14 15 A 16 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 29 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 Q 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 41 42 A 43 44 MR. GRANT 45 46 THE COURT 47 A 252 Yes. This is how the tables are put out. : Okay. What I would like you to do is to explain this diagram to the court. Now, the court has a copy of it in front, and if you want to refer to parts of it you can -- or in front of him. ^: My Lord, perhaps my friend might assist me. Is this the diagram of particular Feast, or is it just representative of a funeral Feast? I'll ask the witness. Firstly, now that you've had a chance to look at it, could you describe when this seating would occur at a Feast in Gitan maaxs? That is, does it just occur at one particular Feast, or does it occur at certain types of Feast? Of different types of Feasts these are the seatings of these Chiefs. Okay. That's hosted by the Lax Gibuu. So every different type of Feast hosted by the Lax Gibuu at Gitan maaxs will there -- Yes. It's labeled for a funeral Feast. Would the sheet be different for a pole raising Feast? No. Or would it be the same? It would be the same. Okay. Maybe you can just proceed and describe -- let us start by saying -- showing the court where the door would be, as that is a term of reference that may be useful in describing the seating? The door would be down near the bottom here. In the centre? Of the Gitan maaxs hall, where this would be -- tables would be set. Okay. So it would be down in the centre of the bottom you indicated? Yes. Okay. Now, at the top of the page in the centre it says Gitan Maaxs Lax See'l. Could you explain the seating there and who would be seated in the centre and why, and go through that table? In the centre of the table you will see Gyetim Galdoo, and the holder of that name today is Sylvester Green. : And he's the head Chief of the Frog Clan at Gitan Maaxs. : Of the Frog Clan? Yes. 253 1 MR. GRANT: 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q 23 24 A 25 26 Q 27 A 28 29 30 31 32 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 40 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 45 46 Q 47 A At Gitan Maaxs? At Gitan Maaxs. And the Lax See'l that's written there, that's the Frog Clan? Yes. Yes, okay. Go ahead? Now, facing the door this way on -- I keep thinking of Gyoluugyat -- Gyetim Galdoo it is -- his left-hand side would be seated Djogaslee. That's Walter Wilson. The next person would be Wiigoob'l. That's Jessie Sterritt. The next person would be Nikateen, James Woods Junior. And the next person would be Ayawus, Martha Ridsdale. Um-hum. What House is Ayawus in? Gyetim Galdoo. Now, on Gyetim Galdoo's right sitting at this table would be Axtiidzeek. That's Bruce Johnson. The next one would be Tsimtsiin, Joshua Campbell. The next would be Luutkudziiwus, Ben McKenzie Senior. The next person would be Ligitlam, Vera William, that's supposed to be, not Wilson. Oh, it's written as Wilson. It should be William? Okay. Now -- Now. You'll see the other tables here, tables here, there's one there and one there. Um-hum. Now, yesterday I spoke about the wings of simoogit. Now, these are the places for those wings, these are the real high Chiefs, and they have nephews and nieces, brothers and sisters, and these are the tables that they would be sitting on, on the wing of Simoogit's table. Okay. Before you proceed, I would just like to ask you what House is Ligitlam in? Hag Wil Negh. And Tsimtsiin? Tsimtsiin has it's own House. Now, can you just proceed down to the other tables, and I should just be clear, do these rectangles in this diagram represent tables, actual physical tables? Yes. And that's what it uses today? Yes. That's what is used today. That's why it's so -- to us it's so complicated sometime when we're using tables . Um-hum. Go ahead? It doesn't -- when we use tables it doesn't show like 254 1 the old seating who's -- who will take the place of 2 this Chief when he dies on the table, and we use a 3 table that doesn't show that, the modern way. 4 Q There's not a place in front for benches up front? 5 A No. There isn't in all these Chiefs. 6 Q Okay. So where did those successors now sit? Did 7 they sit beside with the wings? 8 A Yes. And they would of course -- why these three 9 tables here in the village of Gitan Maaxs, there's 10 more in the plan than the Lax Gibuu and the Gitksan, 11 that's why there's more table for them. 12 Q Now, going down in the same direction, you have these 13 other two tables in front, which appear to be the one, 14 but sitting at Gyetim Galdoo, the one on his right 15 would appear to be a Lax See'l table, and it has 16 Skiik'm Lax Ha on that. Is that table -- can you 17 explain about that table and go on from there? 18 A When the late Gyetim Galdoo, the late Thomas Danes, 19 died about three or four years ago they had a burial 20 Feast for him, and we all -- his mother knew that 21 there was not enough places for the family on the head 22 table, so he made a remark and people got extra gifts 23 for the -- the Chief to set up a table for the rest of 24 their family, her family, her House. This is why this 25 table is set up here, and Skiik'm Lax Ha is the person 26 that sits at the head of this table. And the person 27 that holds that name is Johnny Wilson today, Skiik'm 28 Lax Ha. Now, Benicks sits on that table. You'll see 29 it's Charlotte Solomon, it says Solomon, it's 30 Sullivan. 31 MR. GRANT: I would ask the court to note a correction and 32 possibly we can correct the exhibit instead of 33 counsel -- but it's Charlotte Solomon, and it should 34 be Charlotte Sullivan. And I also noted Ligitlam, 35 which said Vera Wilson, should read Vera Wale. 3 6 THE COURT: Yes. 37 MR. GRANT: 38 Q Who's House is Benicks in? 39 A Benicks is in Gyetim Galdoo. 40 Q Now, going straight across to the other side, you have 41 a table which is labelled Giskaast? 42 A Yes. 43 Q Now, could you explain about that table? 44 A That table is Wiigyet table of Giskaast, and there's 45 three there from Giskaast. There's Wiigyet, Lloyd 46 Morrison; there's Waiget, Elsie Morrison; and there's 47 Wiiseeks, Ralph Michele. Those are the head Chiefs of 1 2 3 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 8 A 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 MR. GOLDI 23 A 2 4 MR. GRANT 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 34 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 39 Q 40 A 41 42 Q 43 A 44 45 Q 46 A 47 255 that table. Then their nephews and nieces, brothers and sisters, fill the other -- the space that's not marked there. Okay. But they would all be in their House? Yes. Okay. Going right down below that you have another Giskaast table labeled Gwisgyan? Yes. In a Feasting at Gitan maaxs some Chiefs, they invite other villages, so we have to prepare a table for those people as well. Now, this is why at this Feasting of the Lax Gibuu just recently that their table was put out for the Giskaast, the people in Kitwangak or Gitchguka(phonetic), and Gwisgyan is the head person of that table, and the other people of Gitchguka form in there. Well, let me ask you just to clarify this. Let us take Hana muuxw. You know Hana muuxw? Yes. Now Hana muuxw is a Giskaast Chief from Gitchguka. Where would Hana muuxw sit? She would sit with Gwisgyan on this table here. EI: It's Stanley Williams? Yes. Stanley Williams. Going into the second table in from the right-hand side of the page as we're looking at it? Yes. It appears to be labeled Anaa'ap. That should be a D, D-a-'-a-p? Yes. It should be Anda'ap, A-n-d-a-'-a-p, I think. Just want to show this to the interpreter so she can -- okay, go ahead. And you explain what Chiefs would sit at that table and what villages they would be from? They would be from Kispiox. Um-hum. You notice that Anda'ap would be sitting on the side of this table. Okay. Not at the end? Not at the end, because this is one table that's not completed. Okay. More Feasting has to be put on to clarify the seating of this table. Okay. And at the bottom end of that table? At the bottom end of the table it would be Niisqiminuu right here on this side. 256 1 Q He would be on the side as well? 2 A Yes. On the side. 3 Q Okay. So both Anda'ap and Niisqiminuu? 4 A Yes. And at the end of this table would be Guu 5 wo'otxw. 6 THE COURT: Which tables again, please? 7 A It's where -- same table as Anda'ap and Niisqiminuu, 8 but Guu wo'otxw sits at this end of that table, on 9 Niisqiminuu's side, Guu wo-otxw. 10 MR. GRANT: Could you spell that, please. 11 TRANSLATOR: Guu wo'otxw. 12 MR. GRANT: And who holds that name? Charlotte Angus. Does Woosim Lax Ha at that table? No. Woosim Lax Ha sits on Geel's table. That's the one just right of centre? Yes. That's Walter Harris, Geel. Can you proceed on to explain the next table, which is labeled as Tsibassa at the top. That is Stanley Wilson? Yes. That's the Giskaast table again from Kispiox. Yes? And their House, I'll have to be excused by them now, their House is Luu hlim hetxwit. That's the name of their House? Yes. That's the name of the House, and all that's in that Tsibassa's House, and they all have, this one table, the nephews, their nieces, the brothers and sisters, they fill this table. : Could you spell that word?. LATOR: Luu hlim htxwit, L-u-u h-l-i-m h-t-x-w-i-t. What does that name mean? Luu hlim htxwit. It's the House that sits at the bottom of the hill. : Can I ask if these two tables, one shown headed by Anda'ap? Yes. : Is the table of a House? Yes. : Which House? Which House is it? It has to be -- there's four Chiefs there, and I can't -- I just have to leave that to the people themselves. 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 26 Q 27 A 28 29 30 31 MR. GRANT 32 THE TRANS 33 MR. GRANT 34 Q 35 A 36 37 THE COURT 38 39 A 40 THE COURT 41 A 42 THE COURT 43 MR. GRANT 44 Q 45 A 46 47 257 1 THE COURT 2 3 A 4 THE COURT 5 A 6 7 THE COURT 8 MR. GRANT 9 Q 10 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 25 26 Q 27 28 A 29 30 Q 31 A 32 MR. GRANT 33 THE COURT 34 MR. GRANT 35 THE COURT 36 THE TRANS 37 THE COURT 38 MR. GRANT 39 Q 40 41 A 42 Q 43 44 A 45 46 Q 47 : What about the next table headed by Stanley Williams? They're the table from Kitwangak. : Is the name of a House? Not when they're visitors, but in their own place at Gitchguka. They would have their own seats there. : All right, thank you. Would it be correct to say that at the end table there's more than -- that Gwisgyan table with Stanley Williams, that is, there's more than one house at the table? Yes. And what about the table with Anda'ap; is there more than one House? Yes. But the Tsibassa table is the table of one House? Yes, table of Luu hlim hetxwit. Moving on over to the next table, the table of Geel, Walter Harris? These Chiefs are from Kispiox. Yes? And every Feasting in either Kispiox or Gitan maaxs they're seated the same way as when they're seated here. Okay. Now, I note on the right-hand side of that table is Chris Skulsh. That is actually -- Yes, yes. He's the next person that sits on the left side of Geel. And what's his Chief's name? Gwii yeehl. Could you give us a spelling of that, please. It's here, isn't it. I don't think that that's correct. All right. LATOR: Gwii yeehl, G-w-i-i y-e-e-h-1. : All right. And is he in the same House as Geel or a different House? Different. And is that -- is he the head Chief of that House? Is it the House of Gwii yeehl, what is it? Yes. There will be some plaintiffs, this will be explained more by them, by their House themselves. Okay. Are there any other houses that sit at the table headed by Geel? 258 1 A Yes. 2 Q That you can describe? 3 A Alongside Gwii yeehl we have Tk'al gyoo'm lax ha. 4 MR. GRANT: Madam Interpreter. 5 THE TRANSLATOR: Tk'al gyoo'm lax ha, T-k-'-a-l g-y-o-o-'-m 6 1-a-x-h-a. 7 MR. GRANT: 8 Q Can you move over to the next table, which is labeled 9 Lax see'l and describe who sits at that table? 10 A That's Delgamuukw's table from Kispiox. 11 Q And that's Ken Muldoe? 12 A Ken Muldoe, and he's Delgamuukw now. 13 Q Okay. And I note along the side of that table you 14 have Wii A'Lax? 15 A Wii A'Lax sits on the right side of Delgamuukw on that 16 table. 17 Q Okay. And Axgiigii? 18 A Axgiigii sits on the left side of Delgamuukw. 19 Q Does any other House, that is a House other than 20 Delgamuukw, sit at Delgamuukw's table? 21 A Yes, there is. 22 Q Which other House? 23 A Alongside I don't know if there would be, I can't find 24 his Indian name, but he's Roy Wilson Senior. 25 Q Roy Wilson Senior? 2 6 A Yeah. 27 Q We can come back to that? 2 8 A All right. 29 Q The next table has the name Miluulak on top of it. 30 Now, where is Miluulak from? 31 A Miluulak is from Gisagas, the Frog town of Gisagas. 32 Q And is that the table of her House? 33 A Yes. That's the table of her House, and on this table 34 again you will -- you'll find that there are different 35 Houses and Chiefs that sit on the same table as 36 Miluulak. 37 Q Now, is that because they're from a House other than 38 Gitan maaxs where this Feast occurs? 39 A No. But they're all from -- all the ones that sit on 40 Miluulak's table are all from Gisagas, and you have, 41 like Wii Minoosik on the right hand of Miluulak, and 42 on his left would be Simgitgigenix. 43 THE TRANSLATOR: I didn't quite get that last one. 44 MR. GRANT: Simgitgigenix. 45 THE TRANSLATOR: 'Wii Minoosik, spelled apostrophe W-i-i 46 M-i-n-o-o-s-i-k, and Simgitgigenix, 47 S-i-m-g-i-t-g-i-g-e-n-i-x. 259 1 MR. GRANT: 2 Q Who holds the name of 'Wii Minoosik today? 3 A Robert Stevens. 4 Q And Simgitgigenix? 5 A Robert Jackson Senior. 6 Q The next table there appears to be a Lax See'l table 7 as well? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And Haalus is at the top, and can you explain where 10 he's from? 11 A This table is from Gitangas and their Lax See'l, so 12 when they're invited we have to have a table for them. 13 Haalus is the -- is the head person of this table, and 14 on his right would be Lelt. That is Fred Johnson. 15 Q Now, is Haalus is different House than let? 16 A No. 17 Q It's the same? 18 A Yes, they are. 19 Q Now, who holds -- 20 A Pardon me. Haalus has his own House and Lelt has his 21 own House. 22 Q So who is the head Chief of the Frog Clan of 23 Gitwangak? 24 A 'Wii Hlengwax. 25 Q Would he sit at this table as well? 26 A Yes. 27 Q And who holds that name today? 2 8 A 'Wii Hlengwax. 29 Q If you can recall? 30 A Simply forgotten his English name. I always knew him 31 as -- 32 MR. GRANT: Possibly the reporter could spell those words of 33 Lelt and 'Wii Hlengwax. 34 THE TRANSLATOR: Lelt is spelled L-e-l-t, and 'Wii Hlengwax is 35 spelled apostrophe W-i-i H-1-e-n-g-w-a-x, underlined. 3 6 MR. GRANT: 37 Q You can proceed if you can't recall that name right 38 now? 39 A Yes. His last night is Wright, but I can't place his 40 first name. 41 Q What is the end table that's labeled visitors for? 42 A Phrase that again? 43 Q The end table. It is labeled visitors, but I just 44 wondered if there's specific types of visitors that 45 would sit there? 46 A Well, when a Feasting is done sometimes in the village 47 there are visitors, like when the Wet'suwet'en people, 1 2 3 MR. GRANT 4 THE COURT 5 A 6 MR. GRANT 7 THE COURT 8 A 9 10 11 THE COURT 12 MR. GRANT 13 Q 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 26 Q 27 28 A 29 MR. GRANT 30 31 32 33 34 35 THE COURT 36 MR. GRANT 37 Q 38 39 A 40 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 45 46 47 A 260 they would be seated there if they happened to be at that Feasting. : Okay. : I don't see where your House would sit? Because we're the host. : You anticipated my next question. : I'm sorry? It's the Lax Gibuu that's holding this Feasting, so our guests are from the Frog Clan and the Fireweed Clan, as Giskaast and Lax See'l, is that clear? : I understand. You've been at a Feast where this has been the seating. I mean you would be in this Feast Hall; is that right? Yes. Can you tell the court where you would be and the people in your House? He doesn't see you on the diagram, just describe to him where you would be? All the Lax Gibuu people would all be at the door part here taking part in giving out the food, the goods, the money, those -- those are -- the people of the Lax Gibuu would be doing, and if you're of the Lax Gibuu Clan you don't look for seats, you just go and stand against the wall. So would you have -- you would -- you would never have a table at a Feast hosted by your Clan? No, never. : My Lord, I just wanted to comment that in light of the fact of the changes and corrections on this diagram I will be preparing one that sets out the spellings more accurately, and that to assist the court and my friend, but it will be as she's described. : All right, thank you. Can you turn to the next tab 5, and once again, was this diagram prepared on your instructions? Of the seating ever Feasts hosted by the Fireweed Clan or the Giskaast at Kispiox, yes. Okay. And you recognize that seating chart? Yes. Okay. Basic -- the basic difference is that it's aimed in another direction, it's lengthwise. Can you explain to the court why it would be that way instead of the lateral way the other seating chart was? This is the way the hall -- how the tables are placed 261 1 2 Q 3 A 4 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT 26 2 7 MR. GRANT 2 8 THE COURT 2 9 MR. GRANT 30 Q 31 32 33 34 35 A 36 37 Q 38 A 39 40 41 Q 42 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 in this Kispiox hall. It's a lengthy hall. Okay. It's long rather? It's from the stage to the door, so this is why we had to have tables this way. So the door is at the bottom of this page? Yes. At the bottom here. Okay. Now, unlike the last chart, this one -- does this chart have a table for your House? Yes, it has. Okay. Can you just show where that is? It's way down at the bottom. Close to the door? Close to the door. Now -- It's placed almost the width of the hall. And why is that, why is it so wide? Because -- Long I mean? Because I have a long Wil 'naa t'ahl. Now, I would like you to refer back to tab 3, in the second page of tab 3 which we referred to yesterday. And you can keep -- to assist the court you can keep this open so that this tab 5 is hanging out with your table there, and here's your table here Are you looking at the modern seating or the old seating? The modern seating, my Lord. Thank you. Okay. Now, under the tab labeled "Modern seating", is this the seating how your table or your end of your table would be in the Feast -- in the Feast described in tab 5? In other words, would this be the actual people sitting there at this table along the bottom? Yes. You'll see that the modern, I sit at the head table. Yes? And down at the bottom my name is again down at the end of the table, and all this goes both sides of the table here. Now, are there other people other than those named on your modern seating that would sit at your table? Yes. And who -- how would they be related to you? They're my wil 'naa t'ahl. So those would be the other people in those houses that are your wil 'naa t'ahl? 262 1 A 2 3 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 A 12 13 THE COURT 14 A 15 THE COURT 16 MR. GRANT 17 Q 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 A 26 27 28 29 Q 30 A 31 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 39 A 40 41 42 43 Q 44 45 A 46 Q 47 Yes. You see that we have on here is a special person too in our -- in our wil 'naa t'ahl is Xsi Osxw. He's got a Nax Nok name. That's why he's placed there. And that's — Roy Wilson Junior. He's the one sitting at the opposite end of the table from yourself? Yes. Can you explain to the court what Xsi Osxw means, the translation of that name? Xsi Osxw means, in Gitksan would be "You irritate people". : No, no. Don't call counsel names? That's what it is. : All right. If you say so. I don't know if I should ask for a break now, my Lord. Okay. Could you describe the seating at the other tables at the head of the hall? That is at the top of the page at tab 5? Five, yes. Start wherever is most convenient and just describe why those tables are set up like that and who those people are and where they are from? Well, always divide the tables in the centre of the hall, and at the door here as you enter, these Lax See'l tables would be on your left as you're entering the hall, because the door is in here. Um-hum. And the Lax Gibuu will take the right side on the hall. Okay. Why is Delgamuukw's table at the centre at the far end? Because he's the Chief of the Frog Clan in Kispiox. Is he the head ever the Frog Clan of Kispiox? Yes, at Kispiox. And next to him is Gyetim Galdoo, who you've already referred to on the previous chart? Yes,, and this Gyetim Galdoo, this table here is called Gitan Maaxs people, so Gyetim Galdoo is the head Chief of the Frog Clan in Gitan Maaxs, so he sits at the head table along side Delgamuukw. Okay. And as in chart 4, would other Chiefs, such as Wii' Goobl, Nikateen, and Luutkudziiwus at that table? Yes. Because they're from Gitan maaxs. Okay. And once again, going to the far left as you're looking at the table page at the top is Miluulak, and 1 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 12 13 14 15 A 16 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 25 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 41 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 263 you've already described that that's from -- Gisagas. Gisagas? Yes. And again with the Wii Minoosik, as you have labeled here, as you described was on the other seating would the seating be similar to Gitan maaxs? Yes. So that Clan you've already described, but you haven't, because it was a Lax Gibuu Feast. You were earlier described the Lax Gibuu seating, so going to the right side, could you explain who was sitting at that first Lax Gibuu table and why they are sitting where they are? The first table, Lax Gibuu here is Kliiyem Lax Haa, and it's headed by Martha Brown today. And she's an elderly lady? She's an elderly lady. Um-hum. And she lives in Glen Vowell? She lives in Glen Vowell. Okay. And who else sits at her table and why do they sit there? Like the way this table is set here, on her left would be Wii Mugulsxw, and these held by Arthur Wilson today. On her left would be Wii Eelast. Okay. Just to clarify. You said on your left? Or on her right, I mean. Okay. And that's held by? James Angus Junior. Okay. Now, why is Kliiyem Lax Haa at that centre table of the Lax Gibuu at this Feast? Because she's the head Chief of the Lax Gibuu at Kispiox. Okay. Then going over to the next table beside her. Yes. It's labeled at the top, it's Spookw is there? Yes. Explain who else and where he's from? The table is Lax Gibuu, Spookw, and he's from Gitan Maaxs. Spookw is the head Chief of the Lax Gibuu at Gitan maaxs. Um-hum. What other Chiefs would sit there from Gitan maaxs? On his -- on his right would be Guuhatak 'Oxw. Guuhatak 'Oxw? Yes. And who -- 264 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 7 Q 8 A 9 10 11 12 Q 13 14 15 16 THE TRANS 17 18 MR. GRANT 19 Q 20 A 21 THE TRANS 22 THE COURT 23 24 MR. GRANT 25 THE COURT 26 MR. GRANT 27 Q 28 29 30 A 31 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 Q 45 46 A 47 Q Tom Wright holds that name. Next would be 'Uaguusip. Yes? That's Joyce Turner. Right. That's on his — On his left, the way this table is sitting, facing the door. Right, okay. On his right side who would be sitting? That seat has been vacant now for some time. The House of this person hasn't decided to put any Feasting, and the vacant seat is held by Laak', Laak'. The last person that held it was Bob Scold. Okay. Now, my Lord, maybe at this stage you could spell those names at those table, because not all of them are written on the chart, or other than Spookw, of course. LATOR: Guuhatak "Oxw, G-u-u-h-a-t-a-k '-O-x-w. 'Uaguusip, apostrophe U-a-g-u-u-s-i-p. And that last name was? Laak', that sits on his right. LATOR: Laak', L-a-a-k. : Pick a convenient time for the adjournment, Mr. Grant. Whenever it's convenient to you. Yes. Maybe we can just finish this. Yes. Maybe we can just go over to the -- there's a table below Spookw's. Is that a separate table, that small one? Yes. That's Wii Gaak's table, and that's from Gisagas. Who holds that name? Neil Sterrit Senior. And who else would sit with him at that table? That is, would there be any other houses or any Chiefs? Yes. He has other Chiefs of his House, and the way this Wii Gaak's table, we had to -- we had to -- you have to fix it up again, it goes through this way, because that small table there you can't get a hundred people on that, that's the amount of people that's in Sii Gaak's House, so this is how you have to make it out, it goes this way, and Wii Gaak sits in the centre, not at the end. Okay. So it actually goes parallel to your table below these others? Yes. Okay. Going over to the next table, which is labeled 265 1 2 3 4 5 6 THE 7 MR. 8 THE 9 MR. 10 THE 11 12 MR. 13 14 15 16 17 IS 19 THE 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A COURT GRANT COURT GRANT COURT GRANT: Q A Q A MR. GRANT MR. INTERPRETER H-a. at the top Niist, David Blackwater? Yes. Could you explain who Niist is and the village it comes from and who else -- Niist is -- I'm sorry. Where is this, Mr. Grant? I'm sorry. It's going along the top. I'm sorry. it's at the far right-hand -- I'm sorry, yes. We're using the table in a different sense. Go ahead. I know what you mean now. Okay. Go ahead? Niist is David Blackwater holding that name today. Um-hum? And the way this table is facing, the door on his right would be Waskyalax Ha. Could you spell that, Madam Interpreter. Waskyalax Ha, W-a-s-k-y-a-1-a-x, underlined, GRANT: Q A Q A A Q A And who holds that name today? Lillian Atwater. You were explaining that table? Now, there are other Chiefs of Niist's House that fills this one side, and they all have new people, young people have taken out the names, and as of today I'm not very familiar who's -- who has these names, so I'll just leave it at that. I don't want to make any mistakes. Okay. But they are -- they are young Chiefs or wings ever Niist's? Yes. Okay. Going down below, you have the Lax Gibuu with -- this is just below Niist's table in the same direction as those tables, and it has Gwoimt, Kathleen Wale in it. Could you just explain where she sits at that table and who else is at that table? Still holding this -- this is the door here, it's on the right side of the hall as you enter, and it's against the wall like this. She prefers to sit in the centre of the table so that her wings would show on both sides, and who sits in front ever her, this is her request, the Chiefs, that her table would be set this way. Okay. And could you just name some of the other people that would sit at that table as her wings? 266 1 A We -- a dealed a walk is her daughter, said I Harris. 2 Q Could you just repeat the Gitksan again for the 3 interpreter? 4 A Gaditk' AI'ow, Da, that's easy to spell, and K'ilax 5 ha. That's held by Wilfred Wale, Gitksan. I believe 6 I said that wrong K'ilax ha. Now I just leave it at 7 that. I'm getting. 8 Q Okay. Maybe — 9 A I can guess, but they are like the new Chief that held 10 that Feasting of the Lax Gibuu recently when we had 11 these tables is Tsi Iwas, sits on the right hand of 12 Gwoimt at the table. 13 Q Tsi Iwas. 14 A Tsi Iwas. 15 Q Who holds that name? 16 A Arnold Johnson. 17 MR. GRANT: Could you give the spellings of those names and say 18 them first and then spell them. 19 THE TRANSLATOR: Gaditk' AI'ow, G-a-d-i-t-k-'-A-l-'-o-w. I'm 20 having problems with Da. I don't know how to spell -- 21 D-a a? 22 A Da is just Da. 23 THE TRANSLATOR: Da, D-a. And K'ilax ha? 24 A Yes. 25 THE TRANSLATOR: K-'-i-l-a-x h-a. Tsi Iwas. 26 MR. GRANT: Possibly this would be an appropriate time for the 27 break, my Lord. 28 THE COURT: All right, thank you. 29 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned for 15 minutes. 30 31 32 33 34 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00) 35 36 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 37 a true and accurate transcript of the 38 proceedings herein transcribed to the 39 best of my skill and ability 40 41 42 43 Graham D. Parker 44 Official Reporter 4 5 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:20 P.M.) MR. GRANT: Q I was at tab 6 the document book, my lord. And you had explained the table at which the Lax Gibuu table along the side, there is another table that goes laterally across the room; could you explain who is at that table and why they are at that table? A May I make my corrections at this time? These words, these names have come to me. The one sitting on east table and on his left is Iiam Lax ha, and that's held by Wallace Johnson today. Q Just a moment. Could you spell it, please? A And the correction on this table -- THE COURT: Just a moment, please. MR. GRANT: Q Just a moment for the interpreter to spell it, please. THE TRANSLATOR: Which name? MR. GRANT: Iiam Lax ha, Wallace Johnson. She has just given that name now. THE TRANSLATOR: I-i-a-m, l-a-x, h-a. MR. GRANT: Q Okay. A And the correction on this, when I gave that -- maybe I didn't give it but the name is which Wilfred Wale and it's the table along the wall. Q The full name of Wilfred Wale? A Yes. Q What is that name? A T'an Lax ha. MR. GOLDIE: That's the chart under tab five, is it? MR. GRANT: Yes, the chart under tab five we are referring to? A Making corrections on it. MR. MACAULAY: I take it, my lord, that there is significance to the order of seating and so on, or my friend wouldn't be leading this evidence. Perhaps it would be appropriate for my friend to file another exhibit showing all these additional names and seating and so on. THE COURT: I think Mr. Grant indicated he would do that. MR. MACAULAY: Including the additional names? MR. GRANT: Yes, we will include the additional names. A Another correction I want to make, I remember the name of 'Wii Hlengwax, it's Herbert Burke. THE COURT: Where is that again? MR. GRANT: That was on the chart at tab four, I believe, wasn't it? Q You indicated that was the chart, tab four, seating chart, the bottom left hand corner of that chart, which has the label Haalus at the head of that table? A Yes. And at the head of that table would be 'Wii Hlengwax I mentioned and the person's name is Herbert Burke. MR. GRANT: Q Going back to tab five, did you have any other comments you wished to make? A No, I have made my corrections. Q If you could just go through the -- that table along, not at the very bottom, which I understand is your 46 table, but below the mid-section of the Lax Gibuu 47 table there. 1 A 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q 8 9 10 A 11 12 13 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A ] 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 27 28 29 30 31 1 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 Q 39 40 41 THE COURT: 42 A 43 1 44 Q 45 A 46 4 7 MR. GOLDIE 267 Here again, we have made corrections, like I said, with all the people have to be seated. This little area here is too small, so we made the length of the table this way. The Lax see'l sits in the centre and on his left facing the door of the hall would be Nii Kyap and next to Nii Kyap would be Gwina nitxw. When you say next, next to Nii Kyap on 'Wii Kaax table. So this table here would be actually the table this should have Waiget? If you want to make another chart, just don't put that in there. Just put it up further this way and then it would be Xsi osxw table and then Xsi osxw sits in the centre, Nii Kyap and Gwina nitxw. And they are on one side -- Yes, on the left side. Who sits on his right side? Laats. Do you know who holds that name today? Martha Danes, I think it is. Can you explain this other table that has labelled Lax see'l, visitors and Lax Gibuu? Rephrase that again? Just explain this table here that's between the Nii Kyap table and your own table? You see, when we put visitors on the table like this, you see, this is done in Kispiox, the feasting here, we have the Kitsegukla and the Gitwangax people and they are visitors so they don't -- we have to sit all these head chiefs together from Gitwangax and Kitsegukla. So when we from Kispiox go down to Gitwangax, they have a visitors table like this for us, where all of the Lax Gibuu from Kispiox would sit and the same way with the Lax see'l, they are called the visitors table. And only the chiefs of that village would have their full seating but we are just called the visitors just seated there. In order of how our tables are in Kispiox and Gitwangax. I would ask you to look at tab six, which is again a sort of lateral chart rather than vertical, what does that represent? Well, it states right on it what it is, doesn't it? Now, I was asked a little while ago where do the Lax Gibuu sit, now here is the seating of the Lax Gibuu. Is this in Gitanmax? Yes. The door is at the bottom here, the door of the hall. : That Gitanmax? 1 MR. GRA1 2 3 Q 4 A 5 6 Q 7 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 A 23 24 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 31 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 37 38 Q 39 A 40 41 42 43 44 Q 45 46 47 A 268 : Yes, it's mislabeled, appears to be mislabeled and we will be making corrections in this as well. So this would be a Feast hosted by the Lax see'l? Yes. Yes, but it says Kispiox here, where it's in Gitanmax. I understand that. Now, you have, in this description it appears you have got many of the same names as we have seen in one or the other diagrams. Yes. Now maybe you could just explain why Spookw sits at the back or that head table in the centre? This is the feasting of the Lax Gibuu -- Lax see'l clan are the Frog Clan. Now Spookw being the head chief of Gitanmax of the Lax Gibuu clan so his table is at the front, way up in the stage or whatever you want to call it. Now this is Spookw's table. He sits in the centre, this way, it doesn't go down, it goes on the side because he wants to show the wing, his wings sitting properly on his table. Right. Okay. And here again, we see Gwoimt, these are the Lax Gibuu and on the other you already have the names of the people that sit with Gwoimt, on this table. Same people would sit with Spookw as you described earlier? Yes. And the same people would sit with Gwoimt? Yes, on this table. And the same way again on this table of Feast, the same people would sit here only he doesn't sit in the centre, Niist sits at the centre. The further head of the centre? Yes. Go ahead with the explanation of the other tables? You see here at the almost the end of the hall of the Lax Gibuu. And the same people, Gwoimt and Wiikaax and Laats. Going down to the tables down below -- Yes, the centre of the hall, at the bottom part all the Giskaat tables are on the left side and all the Lax Gibuu again would be on the right side as you, the left side as you enter in the hall again. I am getting mixed up in my directions again. So as you are coming in the door facing the hall, facing towards the table, on the left is Lax Gibuu on the right is Laats? Yes. 269 1 Q Maybe I could take an aside, why is that, you referred 2 a couple of times to the centre in that division, 3 could you explain why that is, why the centre is the 4 division? 5 A It's the request of the head chief that he wants to 6 show who is all the head chiefs of his table and his 7 wings and his nephews, who would be the next person 8 take the chief, sits in head of them and shows when 9 you put them this way. Whereas here it doesn't say 10 who would take the chief's next in line, becoming the 11 chief. 12 Q You may have misunderstood my question, I was asking 13 why the hall is divided in the middle and you have one 14 clan on one side and the other clan on the other side, 15 is there a reason for that? 16 A It's always been that way, yes. I know the older 17 people when I was small, when they enter into a hall, 18 they look up at the rafters, and there is a centre 19 thing so that's when it's divided, that's their -- the 20 way they know the centre of the hall is something that 21 they have -- it's a mark that divides the two clans. 22 Q Would Spookw in this, the Feast hosted by the Lax 23 See'l in Gitanmax, would he sit right in the centre of 24 the hall? 25 A Yes, that's the way it is right here, of course. He 26 has to sit right in the centre, his table is both 27 sides. 28 Q Now, maybe you could just go through and be sure that 29 these tables are as they would be along the bottom 30 below Wii Gaak's table. 31 A Like, in the Kiskaast House the tables would be the 32 same as when the Lax Gibuu people put on a feasting, 33 and it shows the names already in the -- on the tables 34 of when the Lax Gibuu and the feasting and they are 35 all the same, their seating is the same. And the same 36 way when the Lax See'l put on a feasting, all the Lax 37 Gibuu's tables are here and they are all marked 38 already when the Lax See'l people put on the feasting 39 or the Giskaast people, this is how the Lax Gibuu's 40 table are sitting in Giskaast. 41 Q I would like to refer you to that centre table and has 42 Nii Kyap and Gwininnitxw on it, should that be 43 different or -- 44 A It's been referred just recently that the head chief 45 of this House and how it was before, and he wants it 46 done again, the seating, that's why he wants his table 47 for him to sit in the centre of the table to show that 270 1 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 7 A 8 9 10 11 Q 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 Q 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 THE COURT 40 MR. GRANT 41 THE COURT 42 MR. GRANT 43 Q 44 A 45 46 THE COURT 47 A Nii Kyap and Gwininnitxw are on his left. So so they are now sitting at the Nii Kyap table? Yes. Who would sit at this table or these two tables that are in the middle of the Lax Gibuu, closest to the centre? Well, we could always use that for visitors, you see. Like we say there would be visitors from Lax Gibuu, Wet'suwet'en, they have would have these sections here as visitors of the Lax Gibuu. Now, we have gone through the description of the seating at different feasts, and two of the charts refer to seating at Gitanmax and one of them refers to seating at Kispiox, aside from the fact the hall in one case is lateral or length-wise and in the other case is more longer, is the seating different, for example, the diagram shows a Lax See'l Feast at Gitanmax, would the seating be different for a Lax See'l Feast at Kispiox? The tables would be probably set up differently but the chiefs' seats are there, they are not, they are not changed. So the Lax Gibuu would be on the same side in both villages? Yes. And there would be a table for yourself at both feasts? Yes. Could you tell the court what is the significance or the importance of the seating at the feasts to the Gitksan? The seating of the chief shows their rank, because there is always the head chief of the House and the sub-chiefs and the wings. So that's the importance of the seating, is if you are knowledgeable about the feasting when I enter that seating House and see how these people are seated, you know what House they belong to. May I ask, whose funeral was this for? Which one are you referring to? At tab six, I think it is. What the court is asking, here is tab six -- This funeral was held, put on by Nikateen for a headstone of one of their chiefs in his House. : Headstone of a Lax See'l? Yes. 271 1 MR. GRANT 2 Q 3 A 4 THE COURT 5 6 A 7 8 THE COURT 9 10 A 11 12 THE COURT 13 MR. GRANT 14 THE COURT 15 A 16 17 THE COURT 18 19 A 20 A 21 THE COURT 22 MR. GRANT 23 Q 24 25 26 27 A 28 29 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 41 42 THE TRANS 43 THE COURT 44 MR. GRANT 45 THE COURT 46 MR. GRANT 47 Q In Nikateen's House? In Nikateen's House. Tell me, why is Lax Gibuu at the top and on one side and Giskaast relatively lower in the organization? This feasting is given by the Lax See'l people, so they are hosts to the Giskaast and the Lax Gibuu. Lax Gibuu and the Giskaast are the hosts? I thought it was hosted by Lax See'l? Yes, Lax See'l is the host. The guests are the Lax Gibuu and the Giskaast. Why do the Lax Gibuu come ahead of the Giskaast? You mean by being at the top? Yes. Because Spookw is the head chief of the Lax Gibuu at Gitanmax. : So that configuration depends on where the Feast is being held? Yes. Giskaast don't have a head chief at Gitanmax? No, mostly in Kispiox. : I see. All right. Thank you. Now, you described this Feast, well one erratta obviously that it was in Gitanmax, you said it was for a headstone, it's labelled as a funeral Feast, was it a funeral and headstone? No, two headstones were put on the grave that time and the one headstone was for Nikateen's sister, and one headstone was for his cousin. And when was that Feast that you are referring to? This now? Yes. The 2nd of Mayof '87. Would the seating be, the same, if Nikateen from the Lax See'l was having a funeral Feast instead of a headstone Feast? It will be the same. I note on the exhibit, and it's caused some confusion with the court, that Giskaast, I believe you have a chart in front of you, is spelled G-i-s-k-a-a-t, there should be an S in there, it should be s-t? LATOR: Yes. A-a-s-t? Yes, Giskaast. And that's Fireweed Clan? Yes, the fire -- The Fireweed Clan? 1 A 2 Q 3 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 9 10 A 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q 24 25 26 27 28 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 Q 42 A 43 44 45 46 Q 47 272 Yes. Can you, I believe you were describing the importance of the seating at a Feast, for the Gitksan, could you proceed or had you completed your answer? I didn't get the question. Okay. I had already asked you and you were partially answering the question, what is the importance of the seating, the order of seating to, at a Feast to the Gitksan? It's very, very important to have these seating correct, that no other person would be able to sit in these seats of the high chiefs. And then, again, while we are putting up the tables, we have to know just how many chairs there is for the one table so that one chief is not, is out of a chair, and that's a very embarrassing thing for a chief, is to just stand there and then there is no seat for him. The host of that feasting would be embarrassed just as well as the chief and the whole House of that chief would be embarrassed and, there again, a feasting would be put on of the embarrassment of this chief not having the chair put for him. I want to be clear on that, if it was your House putting on the Feast, a Lax Gibuu Feast, and you had not seated a Lax See'l or frog chief correctly, you have said there would be a feasting put on; would it be put on by your House, the Lax Gibuu or that Lax see'l House who had been embarrassed? It would be put on by that Lax See'l chief. Now, do you recall -- Let me phrase that again. Go ahead. That chief would, the Lax Gibuu would have just a smoke Feast they would call it, just smoke and they would announce that they made a mistake, they have to tell the people that they, of their ignorance, not knowing that there wouldn't be a seat for this special chief. So they have a little smoke thing or a Feast, then that's when that chief that's embarrassed that has to seat would give a Feast. And who would contribute at that Lax See'l Feast? All the Lax See'l clan, the House of that chief would be the people that will be looked upon to stand more of that feasting than all of Lax See'l clan would contribute towards it too. In the description that you have given in a answer to his lordsship's latest questions about the Lax Gibuu 273 1 2 3 A 4 Q 5 6 7 A 8 9 Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 26 A 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 Q 35 A 36 THE COURT 37 A 38 THE COURT 39 A 4 0 MR. GRANT 41 Q 42 43 A 44 45 46 47 Q and the Giskaast, you said that Spookw was the head of the Wolf Clan of Gitanmax; is that right? Yes. Is there a head of all the Wolf Clan of the Gitksan, is there one chief who is the head of all the Wolf Clan of the Gitksan? No, there isn't. There is always just the head chief of every House of Lax Gibuu. Now, there are other Wolf Houses of the Lax Gibuu in Gitanmax besides Spookw; is that right? Yes. So within the village there is a head chief of the clan or a leading chief of the clan? Of what clan? Of, say, Lax Gibuu? Get Gitksan clan do you mean or the House clan? There is a head chief of each House, that's what you have said? Yes. There is no head chief for all the Lax Gibuu of the Gitksan? No, there is not one. What I want you to explain then to the court when you say Spookw is the head chief of the Wolf in Gitanmax, could you explain what you mean by that? Spookw is the head chief because Lax Gibuu holds more of the village and every village there is always a head chief that's head of that village. You see, Spookw is the head chief of the Lax Gibuu, the head chief of the Lax See'l at Gitanmax is Guldo'o. When any word comes into a village, the word has to go to these two people because they are the head of the clan and the village. Neither one of them is above the other? No. : Is there a head chief of the Gitksan? Not in Gitanmax. : I mean of the whole organization? No, no, we go by Houses. Gyadim Guldo'o is the head. What village would you describe yourself as being from, Gyoluugyat, what is your village? I always addressed myself as a, I am Guldo'o, because the Kispiox accepted me as a Guldo'o. And that's where my seat is and I am just married to a person, into Gitanmax, so I am from Guldo'o. Who is the -- is there a head chief of the Wolf, a 274 1 leading chief, let's say, of the Wolf Houses of 2 Guldo'o? 3 A Gyoluugyat is one Guldo'o, and they, there again, 4 there has to be a head chief of the Frog and the 5 Giskaast and the plaintiffs that are coming behind me 6 will tell if they are the head chief. I can't say 7 that because it's not clear to me and I don't want to 8 make any mistakes. 9 Q Is there any relationship between the seating of the 10 chiefs in the village and the -- I mean, sorry, the 11 seating of the chiefs in the Feast hall which you have 12 been talking about and the territories of the chiefs? 13 A The seating of the chiefs in a Feast House, the 14 holders of the territory they come as they sit in the 15 Feast House. 16 Q There is although the head chief of a territory. Then 17 there is the sub-chiefs or the wings? 18 A Yes. The reason, sometimes, I am going to make it 19 more clear, in Gyoluugyat territory now, it's a big 20 area and then there is Houses, like you say five, 21 four, but then each one of us have a portion belonging 22 to each chief but as at wil'naa t'ahl we say that 23 whole thing, the wil'naa t'ahl. No one is put out of 24 not sharing that territory. 25 Q Which chiefs are you referring to? 26 A That is Madiik, Hlo'oxs, Gwomoon and Gadilo'o where 27 our territories are and we share that territory, 28 although we have portions for our traplines to go out. 29 Q So as we describe your territory in later evidence, 30 you will -- we will refer to that territory as marked 31 as Gyoluugyat's territory, is that the territory that 32 you are describing that are described, with Madiik, 33 Gwamoon, Hlo'oxs? 34 A Yes, and it will show each holder of that portion of 35 territory. 36 THE COURT: I am sorry, I am not sure that my note is right. 37 The witness first said that in Gyoluugyat territory 38 there are five or four Houses of which we each have a 39 portion but we share the whole thing. Then she used a 4 0 name I didn't get. Then she named the Houses. And I 41 am not sure I have got them right. Are they Madiik, 42 Gwamoon, Hlo'oxs, and is there another one? 43 A Gyoluugyat. 4 4 MR. GRANT: 45 Q There were four that she named. 46 THE COURT: Was there a name that the witness used for the whole 47 territory? 275 THE A The people in my House they are called, we are called, all the people that belong to these Houses, and their children, the children of the -- of these four Houses, they are brothers and sisters, their grandmother, grandfather and we call that wil'na t'ahl. COURT: I will have to compare that with what I had yesterday. Doesn't seem to be the same thing again. GRANT: It may have been an example where I was doing some of the spellings yesterday. COURT: I am not sure. It's a different spelling from any one I got yesterday. So I will check it. GRANT: My spelling was not necessarily correct. Possibly, it's quite close to four, and it may be a convenient time to adjourn. COURT: All right. Thank you. Before we adjourn, I don't want to presume in any way to either import to instruct counsel or to appear to be impatient, because I don't have that feeling at all, but inquire, are we going to have a lot of this sort of evidence? GRANT: This is what I wish to advise you, my lord, with respect to these three Gitksan witnesses, I have endeavoured to break the evidence up so that there will be a minimum of repetition of evidence so that these basic concepts we are dealing with now is something I was hoping we wouldn't deal with at length with every witness, that once the basic concepts were explained, the next witness' focus, although she will refer to Feast, will be a different focus than this witness, so it will be new evidence and something different from this. I wanted to use, of course, there are many Feasts in all of the villages and different seating but I was hoping to give you the sense by taking these as exemplary. THE COURT: What I am troubled by, I would estimate we have taken close to a third, if not a half of the day, struggling with the spelling of these names. Is it not possible to have a glossary, a roster, some more convenient way than the way we have done it yesterday and today? I don't know how many names we are going to be dealing with. I don't even know how many members there are in the Gitksan band, if I can call it that, but it seems to me that we are taking a lot of time, without much benefit, from the way in which we are trying to get these names. And, in another sense, I can say that I have been in many long trials and some equally complicated as this, nothing is more complicated than mettalurgical and pieces of lumber 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 MR. 9 10 THE 11 12 MR. 13 14 15 THE 16 17 18 19 2 0 MR. 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 276 1 coming out of a high-speed sawmill when you are 2 talking about different grades and different species 3 and that sort of thing, and a table such as we have 4 here, of the seating, it seems to me, could be put to 5 the witness and she could be asked is this the way you 6 sit at the Feast? Seems to me all she has to do is 7 say yes or no and if doesn't matter, really, then, 8 that's prima facie proof and can be left for 9 cross-examination. I don't say that there shouldn't 10 be a lot of detailed evidence about the significance 11 of these things but the basic facts, surely, shouldn't 12 be in much dispute. And I will only say it seems to 13 me that if, and I don't begrudge the time, because 14 it's part of the immersion process that has to go on, 15 but is there going to be a great deal of this? May I 16 suggest that it might be possible to do it in the way 17 I described or some other way. There is lots of 18 examples. And then we could spend our time more 19 profitably on what is really important. Seems to me 20 the details, at the end of the day, the witness has 21 taken, I suspect, a day and a half now, more than a 22 day and a half, will not at the end of the day be very 23 much in dispute, I should think. I will leave it to 24 counsel. At the opening of a trial we should go step 25 by step and slowly and immerse ourselves in the 26 ambiance of the case. But if there is going to be a 27 lot of this, counsel might consider how it can be 28 expeditiously put forward. 29 MR. GOLDIE: Just so that my friend carries with him some sense 30 of at lease how we feel, there are names being heard 31 today that we are hearing for the first time. 32 THE COURT: Same with me, Mr. Goldie. 33 MR. GOLDIE: And we thought we had mastered most of them. We 34 have been through evidence being given on commission, 35 we have been through a number of examinations for 36 discovery, we have watched the number of plaintiffs 37 grow and we have heard explanations for that. And we 38 thought we had got that fairly well understood. Well, 39 there are a lot of names that we are hearing today for 40 the first time and I would like to endorse the 41 suggestion of a glossary. 42 MR. MACAULAY: There is another matter that will come up, when 43 my friends, at last it is produced, that's his atlas 44 of maps. The maps we received today. This comes as 45 no surprise because we have seen this kind of map 46 before. The place names, the names of creeks and 47 rivers of hills and all the other features, are none 277 MR. MR. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 MR. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 THE 18 19 2 0 MR. 21 22 23 24 2 5 MR. 26 27 THE 28 29 3 0 MR. 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 THE 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 of the them the geographic names, they are the Gitksan names. GRANT: They are. MACAULAY: That's going to require a tremendous amount of translation if there isn't a glossary. Quite an elaborate glossary, I would think. GRANT: One aspect of this, I may advise you, and I advised the reporter, something we have been working with and the interpreters working with, we are endeavouring to have a glossary available that will be of assistance to the court and to counsel. But when we produce that glossary, we would like to minimize confusion. It should clarify and not confuse so we want to be sure it's accurate. And that's a process that has been going on for long before now and we are hoping that something will be finalized. COURT: Well, when Nat Bailey started the ball park, we used to say, you can't tell the players without a programme. GOLDIE: There is one other thing and that is the players names are being changed as to their spelling. We are hearing different spellings today and I would like to suggest to my friend that there be a standard form of spelling, if we may. GRANT: Yes, that's a question with respect to the plaintiffs' names. COURT: Well, there will always be differences but at the end of the day, I doubt if that sort of thing is going to have any real significance at all. GRANT: The sense I was trying to endeavour explain to your lordship is that you have a document, the statement of claim, which has the names of will all these chiefs' and Houses. What this witness has been endeavouring to do is to put within the context of the Gitksan those names that are merely a list at this stage for the court. COURT: I understand that. And I think that's useful and if this went on for a few more days I wouldn't feel that I had been badly treated in any way. But I do say if it's going to be continued that there are perhaps ways of doing it that might permit more to be done in the course of a day than might be the result if we carry on more or less as we have. I don't say that critically at all. I say, I think ambiance is an important part of the case and I am sure that counsel think, and I can understand why they think it's part of their case to paint that picture. And I don't 278 1 object to that at all. I do think that we have to 2 keep one eye, however, on progress. Leave it at that. 3 10 o'clock. Do counsel want 10 o'clock or 9:30? 4 MR. GRANT: 10 o'clock, I would think. 5 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO FRIDAY, MAY 15th, 1987 AT 10 7 O'CLOCK A. M.) 8 9 10 I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true 11 and accurate transcript of the proceedings 12 herein to the best of my skill and ability. 13 14 15 16 17 18 Wilf Roy 19 Official Reporter 20
Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts
[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-05-13, 2] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 13, 1987
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