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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Florence Hall Vol. 1] British Columbia. Supreme Court 1987-10-13

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 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS  2  3 NUMBER        DESCRIPTION PAGE  4  5   1 Photograph 3  6  7   2 Genealogical chart 5  8  9   3 Photograph 5  10  11   4 Photograph 28  12  13   5 Photograph 37  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 EXi  \MINAr  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  October 13, 1987  Smithers, B.C.  GEORGE HOLLAND, the interpreter:  Sworn  FLORENCE HALL:  Sworn  3N IN CHIEF BY MS. MANDELL:  For the record, this is the commencement of the  commission evidence of Florence Hall.  Today's October  the 13th and we're situate in Smithers in -- in the  courthouse.  With me is Ron Michell, who will be  assisting with respect to the spelling.  George  Holland has been sworn in as a translator.  Marvyn  Koenigsberg is here representing the Federal Crown and  to my right is Jeff Plant representing the Province.  My name is Louise Mandell and I'm representing the  plaintiffs in the action here.  Your name is Florence Hall?  Yes.  And your chief's name is Kweese?  Yes.  And you are the head chief in the house of Kweese in  the Tsayu clan?  Yes.  The house of Kweese is also known as the beaver house?  Yes.  What is the Wet'suwet'en word for your house?  K'a K'en yex.  The other Tsayu house is Namox?  Yes.  We are all one half.  And Lucy Holland is the head chief of the house of  Namox?  She is -- she is the head of the other half of the  house.  And that's the house of Namox?  Yes.  And you're the head chief of the Tsayu clan?  Yes.  Do the two houses, the house of Kweese and the house  of Namox, work together at the feasts?  Yes.  We all work together in the feasts and we -- we  all talk together as we did last night.  The owl and  the grouse people all work together.  They come  together and work together.  And are the owl and the grouse people, are they people  from the house of Namox?  Yes.  That is their crest. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  Okay.  Were you born in 1911?  Yes.  And you're 7 6 years old?  Yes.  And your mother was Emily Dennis?  Yes.  And your father was little -- your mother was a former  Kweese?  Yes.  And your father was Little Dennis Mitchell?  Yes.  Did your father have a chief name?  Yes.  And what is that name?  Gwenu.  And what was his house?  Git nee la yex.  18 MS. MANDELL:  And is that in the house of Hagwilneh?  19 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  What?  20 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  That was his uncle.  21 MS. MANDELL:  22 Q   Okay.  In the house of Hagwilneh.  And what was his  23 clan?  24 A   Lu'ksylyuu.  25 Q   I'm going to show to you a picture that I have and I  26 wonder if you could identify who are these people in  27 the picture?  2 8       A   That is my father and my mother and myself when I was  2 9 small.  30 MS. MANDELL:  I'd like this picture marked as the first exhibit  31 on this commission.  32 (EXHIBIT 1:  Photograph)  33 MS. MANDELL:  34 Q How old were you when this picture was taken?  35 A Around about five.  36 Q Your mother's mother was Adele Sutherland?  37 A Yes.  38 Q And did she have a chief's name?  39 A I believe they called her Nees dii ben.  40 MR. PLANT:  Could we have a spelling for that?  41 MS. MANDELL:  42 Q   I think it's N-e-s-t-i-b-e-e-n.  And was she called  43 Bask'et?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And you were married to Gordon Hall and have been  46 since 1937?  47 A   Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  And does your husband have a chief's name?  Yes.  And what is that name?  Gyolugyet.  And is the head chief of your husband's house Woos?  Yes.  He is Woos.  He is the head.  And what is his clan?  Gituden, wolf.  And did he receive -- your husband receive his feast's  name in 1977?  Yes.  And together you and your husband had eight children?  Eight, four boys and four girls.  You lost two girls?  Lost two girls.  Are there -- is Mut the other chief in the house of  Kweese?  Yes.  Are there any other chiefs in the house of Kweese?  No.  Okay.  And do you know how many people there are in  the house of Kweese today living?  Eighty.  Okay.  As -- as head chief of the house of Kweese, do  you have the authority to authorize that this court  action be brought on behalf of your house?  Yes.  And did you authorize that this court case should be  brought on behalf of your house?  Yes.  And has anyone from your house spoken to you that they  disagreed with your bringing this court case?  No.  Now, I'm producing and showing to you a chart, which  they call a genealogy chart, with the -- showing the  members of the house of Kweese, some of whom now have  passed away.  Have you seen that chart before?  Yes.  Did you work with -- I'm sorry.  Did you work with  Tonya Mills to prepare this chart?  Yes.  And do you remember that I read you the names of the  chart, the names on the chart and that those names  were translated by Rita George to you?  Yes.  And is the information contained on that chart  accurate to the best of your knowledge? F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A   Yes.  It is right.  2 MS. MANDELL:  I'd like the genealogical chart to be marked as  3 the next exhibit.  4 (EXHIBIT 2:  Genealogical chart)  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Could I have a copy of that one?  6 MS. MANDELL:  That's exactly the same copy that you have.  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  The one I have has been cut off on the bottom.  8 THE INTERPRETER:  I just advised her that anytime she is tired,  9 to let us know.  10 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  11 MS. MANDELL:  12 Q   Who held the -- who held the chief name Kweese before  13 you did?  14 A  My mother.  15 Q   And that's Emily Dennis?  16 A   Yes.  That's her.  17 Q   And were you alive when your mother held the name  18 Kweese?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Before your mother, who held the name Kweese?  21 A  My mother's brother, August.  22 Q   And were you alive when August Pete held the name?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   I'm showing to you a picture, and I wonder if you can  25 see August Pete in this picture?  26 A   Indicating this one here.  27 MS. MANDELL:  So you're indicating the man fifth — the fifth  28 man in from the left-hand side of the picture, the man  29 with the moustache.  I'm just going to put a --  30 actually, it's indicated his name in English below his  31 person on the picture.  I'd like to tender this  32 picture as the next exhibit.  33 (EXHIBIT 3:  Photograph)  34 MS. MANDELL:  35 Q   Before August Pete held the name, do you know who held  36 the name Kweese before him?  37 A  August Pete's uncle, Mooseskin.  38 Q   Is that Mooseskin Johnny?  39 A   Yes.  Mooseskin Johnny.  40 Q   And were you alive when Mooseskin Johnny held the name  41 Kweese?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Do you know approximately when Mooseskin Johnny passed  44 away?  45 A   1930, around May.  I don't know the exact date.  4 6 Q   Okay.  Has anyone told you who held the name Kweese  47 before Mooseskin Johnny? F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A  Mooseskin Johnny's uncle.  I didn't know him.  2 Q   Do you know who Mooseskin Johnny's uncle -- what his  3 name was?  4 A   L iiat yeghbeeb is what I understood.  5 MR. PLANT:  Sorry.  Is that a Wet'suwet'en name?  6 MS. MANDELL:  Who told you?  7 MR. PLANT:  Well, I need a little help here.  8 THE SPELLER:  L-underline-i-i-a-t-y-e-g-h-b-e-e-b.  9 MR. PLANT:  b-e-e-b?  10 THE SPELLER:  Yes.  11 MS. MANDELL:  12 Q   And who -- is that man Tommy Namox' father?  13 A   Yes.  That is.  14 Q   And who told you that Tommy Namox' father was Kweese  15 before Mooseskin Johnny?  16 A  My grandmother.  17 Q   And is that Baask'eh?  18 A   Yes.  That's right.  19 Q   And were you told of anybody who had been Kweese  20 before Tommy Namox' father?  21 A   No.  I don't recall.  22 A   They may have related to me before, but there's always  23 been a successor to each name.  24 Q   Had you been told by anybody about a Kweese whose name  25 was also Biinii?  26 A   Yes.  He was way before our time.  We been told that  27 he was Kweese.  28 Q   And who told you about Biinii?  2 9 A  My grandmother.  30 Q   And is that Baask'eh?  31 A   Yes.  That's her.  32 Q   Were you told how Biinii got his name?  33 A   No.  34 Q   You were told what his name means?  35 A   I don't remember, you know.  He was the same person  36 that had visions and prophesized things.  He called  37 himself Saam dil saa.  38 Q   And what is Biinii's reputation among the Wet'suwet'en  39 as somebody who foresaw things in the vision?  What  40 did he foresee?  41 A   Yes.  He either dreamed or had visions of the future.  42 He also foresaw the priest or people who wore black.  43 They would be people that deceive and would only  44 listen to people that wore white.  45 Q   And did Biinii foresee any new -- new technology to  46 come into the Wet'suwet'en's life?  47 A   Yes.  He was the same person which -- I didn't finish 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  7  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  my story -- that these people in black would deceive  our people and they would take our land away and then  there would be populated or taken -- populated by  white people.  And did he foresee the coming of new things as well as  new people?  Yes.  He was the same person that saw -- saw in his  visions -- he spoke of a box with a light in it which  spoke and also vehicles that travelled by itself and  also vehicles in the air.  He spoke of that too.  Are these visions of Biinii well known among the  Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  Before Biinii, was there a Kweese who made war on  Kitimat?  Yes.  There was such a person before him.  And who told you of the history of the Kweese who  made -- who made a raid on Kitimat?  My grandmother, her brother Mooseskin Johnny, both  told the stories.  And that's your grandmother Baask'eh again?  Yes.  And did they tell you how long ago the -- it was when  Kweese made the raid on Kitimat?  It is known amongst numerous people.  They figure it's  about 400 years ago.  And when Mooseskin Johnny was telling you about this  history, do you recall where you were with him?  We were way out in the territories when we went with  him when he related all these historic stories.  All right.  And when you say that you were out in the  territory, which territory were you in?  Out in their own territory, a place called Tal tsii we  yez .  Is that around the place we call Burnie Lake?  Yes.  That is the place.  And who do you recall was out there on the territory  with you?  There was -- Tiljoe was by himself.  And were you there with any members of your family?  Tiljoe was with us on our first trip, but after that  there's Peter Alfred and Francis Alfred, Mooseskin  Johnny's nephew or grandchildren.  Okay.  And was your brother Sam and your sister  Christine there as well?  Yes.  Only three of us.  Christine was only a baby.  And was your mother and father there too? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  Yes.  We were with them.  And do you recall what time of the day it was when  Mooseskin Johnny would tell the story of the raid on  Kitimat?  As he was -- he was taking us out to the territory, he  identified places for us and then whenever we camped,  before -- any evenings before we go to bed, he would  have us sit around the campfire and tell us all these  stories of the past.  And when you say "he", you're talking about Mooseskin  Johnny?  Yes.  And you said that your grandmother Baask'eh -- is it  Baask'eh -- also told you the story, the history of  the Kweese's raid on Kitimat.  Can you recall where --  where you were when -- when she told you that history?  Most of the time that the stories were told by  Mooseskin Johnny and going out and he would tell us  his stories of the past until we fell asleep, and that  is why I know -- I know so much about it.  And when your mother's mother, your grandmother,  Adele, told you the story, do you recall where you  were when she talked to you about it?  My grandmother was staying with us at Walcott when  they told us stories.  And do you remember who she told the story to?  All -- all us children are -- Sam used to be very fond  of her grandmother and he always used to chase us,  keep us away from my grandmother and now he's passed  on, killed in an accident.  He would have been in my  place now if he didn't pass on.  And so Sam was present when your grandmother would  tell this history?  Yes.  Have you ever heard this history told at a feast?  August used to relate the stories.  You heard August Pete relate the stories?  Yes.  And had you -- have you ever heard anyone else tell  this history of the feast besides August Pete?  Referring to your translator, the father, who was also  Mut, related the stories.  That's Joshua Holland, who is Mut, right?  Yes.  And was that at a feast when Mooseskin Johnny's  headstone was erected?  Yes. F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Q   Okay.  2 A   That is when he got the name.  3 Q   That's when August Pete took the name Kweese?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Did your grandmother ever tell you to tell the story  6 to anybody to discipline them or to correct their  7 attitude?  8 A   If you should appear or seen people -- if you should  9 appear or seen poor in the eyes of other people, you  10 should relate the story of Kweese's war party and tell  11 them of how the regalia and crest come about, how it  12 was brought back.  13 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  I wonder if we can just take a five-minute  14 break and we'll see how you're doing.  15 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  16 MS. MANDELL:  Can you tell us the history of Kweese's raid on  17 Kitimat?  18 THE INTERPRETER:  She's just asked me can I tell right from the  19 beginning and I told her yes, you can tell them when  2 0 and why.  21 THE WITNESS:  He had two wives, one wife Gitumden, and they had  22 a child, a little boy.  Luk'stamasyu wife, they had  23 two children.  And out in the territory, Gitumden wife  24 and the child went out on the trap line towards  25 Ooyenii.  When they went down towards Ooyenii in the  26 springtime, it's a heavy crust and you can't see the  27 tracks on crust of the snow. They searched for them,  2 8 but they were unable to find them, and they never did  2 9 find them and they left.  When they couldn't find  30 them, Kweese was very angry and when they left -- and  31 then that same summer there was a strange man sitting  32 at a place where people sit.  They had a log there.  33 There was a strange man sitting there.  It's in front  34 of the church of Moricetown.  And this person that was  35 sitting there, he had a strange looking hat with bear  36 claws at the top hanging from it and people -- the  37 people asked him who -- who he was and what he was  38 doing and he told them "I am looking for Kweese."  39 And the message went out to Kweese and Kweese got  40 the message and he had knife on each hand.  He started  41 going towards the man that was sitting there and this  42 man there seen Kweese coming and right away he said,  43 "Is that you, Kweese?  I am looking for you.  I have  44 had a hard trip.  I went through a lot of hardship.  I  45 come a long ways looking for you.  I have knowledge of  46 who killed your wife and I know who they are.  I have  47 come to tell you." 10  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 So after this man told Kweese that he had  2 knowledge of who killed his wife, Kweese was happy and  3 he took this man to where he lived and he brought him  4 into his -- his house and he set out hides for him to  5 sit on and then they fed him well.  So while the --  6 they talked, Kweese talked about getting people from  7 all the villages to come and gather in one place, and  8 that is what they spoke of.  9 After the -- they invited people from all the  10 villages.  They gathered over -- he's pointing towards  11 northeast, a place, Canyon Creek.  There's a large  12 flat area there.  It's like a battle ground where --  13 that's where they gathered everybody and --  14 THE INTERPRETER:  Can I ask her the question?  I just want to  15 clarify the numbers she mentioned.  16 MS. MANDELL:  17 Q   Um-hum.  18 A   I don't know where they got the skins, the hides from,  19 but they had 40 hides which they -- he brought there  20 to make moccasins with.  21 After the gathering, they started -- the warriors  22 started travelling.  They went through Walcott, and  23 there's a mountain range just south of Walcott.  The  24 party came upon a herd of caribou and then they were  25 going to shoot it, but the boys said, "No.  We'll --  26 we'll slay them bare hand."  So they circled the herd,  27 which was laid down, and they started closing in.  2 8 Now, the herd jumped up and they tried to grab  2 9 them and the herd stampeded, just jumped and kicked  30 them.  They all took off on them, and there was just a  31 young caribou there.  That was all they could catch by  32 hand.  33 After they caught this young caribou, they cooked  34 it.  It wasn't enough to go around, so they left that  35 area and then they came upon a grizzly -- grizzly den  36 and they slayed that grizzly and took him out of the  37 den, and they also cooked that and the meat is very  38 stringy and they all had a -- they took it by the  39 strands and even then that wasn't enough for everybody  40 to eat.  And they took the hide from the grizzly and  41 they took Kweese, and the warriors told Kweese, "We're  42 having a hardship and the hard time on your account."  43 So they put him in the grizzly bear hide and they toss  44 him way up and toss him up and down and his  45 Lak'tsamasyu children told the warriors.  He said --  46 they said, "You might hurt -- hurt him.  It's no sense  47 doing that to him because you probably will never 11  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 satisfy him anyway".  2 So the warriors quit doing that and they continued  3 travelling over the mountains and then they came over  4 the mountain top above Kitimat.  When they come over  5 the mountain top there over Kitimat, the village, the  6 Indian village, it looked like the people down below  7 were suspicious to seen them, so they all stood still  8 and they make themselves look like trees and they  9 stood like that until darkness set over them and then  10 the people in the village all settled down and gone to  11 bed, gone to sleep, and then all the warriors came  12 down off the mountains and they went around the  13 village and they killed everybody.  They cut their  14 throats while they were asleep.  When the -- when they  15 killed all the villagers there and then all the  16 warriors, they gathered all the regalia and all the  17 belongings and they put it all in one place and they  18 took all their food and then they started feasting.  19 They took all the food in the village.  They put it in  20 one place and they -- they ate and then they took all  21 the dried berries and they put it in their canoes that  22 they found there and they put all the dried berries in  23 there and they soaked it in water, and all the  24 warriors gathered around and they started eating  25 these -- these berries that was soaked in water.  26 And, meanwhile, all this feasting going on, Kweese  27 was missing.  He was nowhere to be seen.  And then all  28 of a sudden he appeared.  He had these things on his  29 arms.  They had -- he had -- he had holes in him.  He  30 had them on his arms and hair on them.  So when he  31 comes and he meets where the warriors were eating  32 these berries and they took his arms, he passed them,  33 threw the berries in the boat and then he sucking on  34 his arms these things on there.  And the warriors  35 realized what it was.  It was the private parts of  36 women that he had cut out and put on his arms.  And  37 the warriors got mad at him.  They push all the boats  38 out -- out on the water.  39 So after they finished feasting, they took all the  40 regalia from the village and they started distributing  41 them out and they -- the warriors found a beaver hide,  42 an old beaver hide, and they throw that at Kweese and  43 there was a goat hide also with a head still on it.  44 They throw that to him too, and also an eagle with no  45 tail feathers, and a weasel, and they told him, "This  46 is all you're going to have because we -- you caused  47 us a lot of hardship.  We're going to take the rest." 12  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 That is why now the Luksilyu and all the other clans  2 took all the rest of the crest and that is all what --  3 the four items Kweese had.  4 And after they distributed everything out, the war  5 parties started to track back and when they came back,  6 then the war parties dispersed and that is with their  7 different regalias, and that is why now the different  8 clans have all these different crests and regalia.  9 That is why they have crests now.  10 Q   Kweese, I wanted to go back and ask you some questions  11 about the story just to get them clear for the record.  12 When the -- the wife of Kweese, the Gitumden wife, and  13 the son were first on the territory, do you know whose  14 territory that was?  Before they were killed or got  15 lost, whose territory were they, does the story say,  16 that they were on?  17 A   It was around Tal tsii we k'iw.  18 Q   And is that the territory that we know about as the  19 territory around Burnie Lake?  20 A   Yes.  That's the place.  21 Q   And when you talked about Kweese gathering the  22 warriors together after he had heard about who killed  23 his wife and his son, were those Wet'suwet'en people  24 or were there any other warriors gathered at that  2 5 time?  26 A   It was all We'suwet'en people.  27 Q   And does the story identify whether those We'suwet'en  28 people were from one clan or were they from all of the  29 Wet'suwet'en clans?  30 A   Yes.  They had clans, but they didn't have regalia.  31 Q   But were the Wet'suwet'en people who gathered, were  32 they from all of the different clans or just was it  33 taken from one clan?  34 A  All -- all the clans, from all the clans.  35 Q   Okay.  And when the people gathered and Kweese handed  36 out the 40 hides and distributed them, was that his  37 footwear?  38 A   He gave what they call Bah k'e haldaaz, his -- he gave  39 a piece of a moccasin to each warrior.  Now, the place  40 where they gathered across there by Canyon Creek is  41 what they call Bah len et k'iyh.  42 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Can I just have the name of the piece of the  43 skin?  44 THE SPELLER:  Which one?  Bah k'e haldaaz,  45 B-a-h-k-apostrophe-e-h-a-1-d-a-a-z.  46 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And the Canyon Creek place?  47 THE SPELLER:  Bah len et k'iyh, 13  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 B-a-h-1-underline-e-n-e-t-k-apostrophe-i-y-h.  2 MS. MANDELL:  3 Q   And was -- does the story explain that when the  4 footwear was distributed or the hide was distributed  5 for the footwear, is there a Wet'suwet'en feast  6 which -- which has a name which describes what was  7 going on at that time?  8 A   No.  They don't say that.  9 Q   Is this called Bah k'e haldaaz?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Bah k'e haldaaz?  12 A   Bah k'e haldaaz.  13 Q   And what does that mean?  14 A   So it's -- when they cut the hide, piece of the hide  15 to make footwear for the warriors.  16 Q   That's the name of the cutting of the hide?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And you talked about the choice of the hunters to kill  19 the caribou by hand.  Was this according to the story  20 a hunting method chosen because they were going into  21 war?  22 A   They done that so -- so -- to prove that they were  23 feared warriors.  Instead the caribou stampeded all  24 over them.  25 Q   You said that many clans today use crests and regalia  26 that they brought back from Kitimat.  Are there any  27 clans today who don't use crests and regalia brought  28 back from Kitimat?  29 A   They are using the ones that they had brought back.  30 Q   Okay.  And do the Tsayu, the Tsayu clan use rattles  31 and blankets decorated with crests today?  32 A   Yes.  They are using.  33 Q   And do those crests come from the Kitimat raid?  34 A   Yes.  They all came from there.  They didn't have  35 anything before that.  36 Q   Do you have a blanket?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And what -- can you tell us what the crest looks like  39 on your blanket?  40 A   This was a crest of beaver and a goat on there.  41 Q   And how did you get your blanket?  42 A   There was all brought back on that war in Kitimat.  43 Q   That's where the crest comes from, but how did you get  44 the blanket that you hold today?  45 A   It's -- it's Kweese's blanket from way back, but it's  46 always been renewed occasionally.  47 Q   Okay.  Did -- did your mother give you that blanket or 1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  14  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  was it given to you when you got the name Kweese?  When -- when August got the blanket, it was well used,  so August had it replaced and that same blanket, my  mother used and that's the same blanket I'm using now.  Okay.  And did you ever see the blanket used by your  mother?  Yes.  And did you ever see the blanket used by August Pete?  Yes.  And was that the same blanket as you're using now or  was the one used by August Pete an older blanket used  by Mooseskin Johnny?  Yes.  That blanket was remade by -- for August Pete  and then my mother used it after that.  Okay.  And did you ever see the blanket used by  Mooseskin Johnny?  I never seen the blanket made -- or Mooseskin Johnny  used, but just the one that's -- that was remade by  August Pete.  Okay.  Have you ever been told by anybody whether the  blanket which was used by Mooseskin Johnny had the  same crests on it as your blanket does today?  They make exact same replica and when the blanket is  worn out, it is replaced by a new one with the same  crest.  And who told you that the blanket which you now have  is a replica of the blanket which was worn by  Mooseskin Johnny?  There's -- I was aware of the time when the new  blanket was made.  My -- my parents helped pay for  that blanket at a feast; paid the person, the lady  that made the blanket.  And was it your parents, then, who told you that the  blanket was a replica?  Yes.  And your parents are now both deceased?  Yes.  Is there any -- is there another Tsayu blanket with  Mut's personal crest displayed?  Yes.  It looks the same.  Have you seen -- sorry.  There's two of them that look the same.  And have you ever seen Mut's blanket with his crest on  it?  Yes.  And can you describe for us what does that crest look  like? 15  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A   It is the same as -- same as the blanket that I have  2 now.  It's a beaver and goat on it.  3 Q   Is that a mountain goat?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And does Mut's crest come from the raid on Kitimat as  6 well?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   You said that when the warriors threw -- threw skins  9 at animals that -- to Kweese, they also threw to him  10 an eagle with the tail cut off.  Is that also a crest  11 of the Tsayu people?  12 A   Yes.  That is a crest.  That is their own.  13 Q   And to your knowledge, is there any blankets or  14 regalias which today display the crest with the eagle  15 without a tail?  16 A   They have.  They don't use it now.  17 Q   Okay.  And is there any -- has anybody ever told you  18 why that crest is not in use today?  19 A  Maybe -- I have no knowledge of it, but maybe it's no  2 0 good to me.  That's why they throw it away.  21 Q   I think you're getting tired.  22 A  Maybe they don't want it because it got no tail.  23 MS. MANDELL:  We're going to get a bunch of bad jokes if we stay  24 on the record.  I think that's enough for today.  25  26  27   (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL OCTOBER 14, 1987 AT 10:30 A.M.)  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1  2  3  4 EXi  \MINAr  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  16  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  October 14, 1987  Smithers, B.C.  3N IN CHIEF BY MS. MANDELL CONTINUED:  This is October the 14th, 1987 and it's the  continuation of the commission evidence of Florence  Hall.  Prior to your having received the chief's name  Kweese, had you held any other -- any other names?  Neesdeben held that first.  Okay.  Do you want a spelling for that?  Now, you  received the -- your chief's name when your mother  passed away in 1970; is that correct?  Yes.  Okay.  And did your mother choose you to be Kweese?  Was that her first choice?  She had originally designated Alex to be the  successor, but the time of my mother's death, Alex had  decided to let me take it.  What's Alex' last name?  Alex Dennis.  And that's your brother; is that right?  Yes.  And did Alex and you discuss the fact that it would be  you that would be taking the name Kweese?  Just shortly after the death of my mother, Alex  immediately told me that I should take that name  because he was unable to at that time.  And did your discussion with Alex happen before there  was a smoke feast held to decide upon a successor?  Yes.  He discuss this with me immediately after my  mother's death.  It was just a short time.  She was  still laying there when he discussed that with me and  I responded by saying that I guess I will take it.  Okay.  And was there a smoke feast which was held  shortly after your mother's death where the chiefs  were to decide who would be the successor to the name?  There was a smoke feast set up and while they were out  gathering -- out to get their cigarettes, by the time  he came back, the smoke feast was already in progress.  When you say "they were out getting cigarettes", are  you referring to the witness, when she was out getting  cigarettes?  Yes.  Sorry.  And do you recall which of the chiefs were present at  that smoke feast?  All chiefs, John Alfred, Johnny David, Peter Bazil 17  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Senior, Mathew Sam, who was Woos, and Thomas George.  2 Q   Was John Namox present?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Are these all the chiefs who you can remember, or were  5 there more chiefs as well who were present?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   What is it?  Is this all the chiefs she can remember?  8 A   He was Gilsehyu, David Dennis, who was Samooh, and  9 Caspit, the one before the present Caspit.  I forget  10 the name, the previous one.  Jimmy Thomas.  11 Q   Is it -- were chiefs from all of the clans there to  12 discuss the successor?  13 A   Yes.  They were all there.  There was all chiefs.  14 Q   Is it -- is it required that chiefs from all of the  15 clans will discuss the successor to a major chief's  16 name?  17 A   Yes.  They're all supposed to be present.  18 Q   Okay.  And do the chiefs from the related houses -- in  19 this case, would the Tsayu chiefs have more formal say  20 in the choice of his successor than any of the other  21 chiefs?  22 A   Yes.  The name belongs to them.  23 Q   All right.  And during the smoke feast, did anybody  24 speak up that -- that -- that you should be the  25 successor to the name Kweese?  26 A   No.  Just they were -- they were pulling away from me,  27 but after Christine spoke, they never said anymore.  28 Q   All right.  What's Christine's name?  2 9 A   Jimmy.  3 0 MS. MANDELL:  And —  31 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  Jimmy?  32 MS. MANDELL:  33 Q   When you say that the chiefs were pulling away from  34 you, did they have another name for a successor that  35 they were -- that they were speaking about?  36 A   Thomas George and Laksilyu chiefs, they were leaning  37 towards -- towards your father, referring to your  38 translator.  39 Q   And is that Joshua Holland?  40 A   Yes.  They were trying to put him in there.  41 Q   And Thomas George is Gitdumden?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Now, you said that after Christine had spoken, the  44 chiefs did not speak anymore.  Did that silence of the  45 chiefs at that time tell you that it was for you to  46 begin to prepare to take the name?  47 A   So then even though they were silent at the time, but 18  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 the chiefs still talked about it outside of -- after  2 that, outside of the smoke feast.  They didn't prefer  3 to have me take the name, so later on Camelia said  4 whoever puts up the most money would take the name.  5 Q   What's Camelia's last name?  6 A   She was Guusdadeluk.  7 MS. MANDELL:  Augustine had that name now.  8 MR. PLANT:  I didn't hear that.  9 THE WITNESS:  Guusdadeluk.  10 MS. MANDELL:  11 Q   What clan is Camelia from?  12 A   Laksamusu.  13 Q   Did -- did you begin to prepare for the funeral feast  14 after the smoke feast?  15 A   Yes.  We got ready for it right after.  16 Q   Okay.  And when you said that you got ready for it,  17 what kinds of preparation did you do?  18 A  All the clan members gathered food stuff and material,  19 which there was lots of.  They all helped gather  20 things for the funeral feast.  21 Q   Okay.  When you say the clan members, which clan  22 members participated?  I don't mean the names of the  23 people, but the names of the clan?  24 A   Camelia and Camelia's clan and also Mary George's clan  25 and also my own people, Jeannie Naziel and seven boys  26 she had.  They all helped.  27 Q   Okay.  So Camelia's clan is Laksamusu and Mary  2 8 George's clan is Gitdumden?  29 A  Mary George's husband is Gitdumden and Mary George is  30 Tsayu.  31 Q   And Tsayu is your own clan?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   So the Laksamusu and the Tsayu clan worked together to  34 prepare for the funeral feast; is that right?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Can —  37 A   They all help one another.  38 Q   Has it always been, to your knowledge, that the  39 Laksamusu and the Tsayu people will work this closely  40 together?  41 A   They all work together.  If the Laksamusu help out the  42 Tsayu, then they are allowed to use fishing sites and  43 as -- as appreciation and also they are allowed to use  44 hunting and trapping territories.  45 Q   Do the Laksamusu and Tsayu sit together at the feast  46 hall?  47 A   Yes.  They sit together. 19  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Q   Was there a funeral feast held for your mother?  2 A   Yes.  There was a feast.  3 Q   And did you attend?  4 A   Yes.  I was there and people came from long ways to  5 attend the funeral.  The hall was just packed.  6 Q   How much did you personally -- did you and your  7 husband contribute money to the funeral feast, money  8 or goods?  9 A   I myself put in $500 cash.  There was household goods,  10 material and food stuff.  There was a total of  11 approximately $3,000, blankets also.  12 Q   And this is what you personally contributed?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Okay.  Was there anyone present at the funeral feast  15 who announced that it was you that should succeed and  16 become Kweese?  17 A   No.  Nobody said anything.  18 Q   Did -- did -- did there -- was there discussion, if  19 not a formal announcement, regarding who would become  20 the successor to the name Kweese?  21 A  After -- after Christine spoke to them --  22 Q   That's Christine Jimmy?  23 A   -- there was no further discussion at the feast at  24 all, but I understand that the chiefs had private  25 discussions elsewhere after that.  26 Q   Following the funeral feast, did you prepare for the  27 headstone feast of your mother?  28 A  Almost immediately after the funeral feast, Camelia  29 phoned me and said they were going to have another  30 smoke feast for planning and highering.  31 Q   And this is Camelia Wilson?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And did there occur another smoke feast for the  34 planning and highering of the headstone feast?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And who was present at that smoke feast?  37 A  And this same procedure took place and mostly all  38 Moricetown people at that time.  The place was full  39 and that is when Gitdumden people were hired.  40 Q   Okay.  When you say that Gitdumden people were hired,  41 was Gitdumden the clan of your mother's father?  42 A   Yes.  She was -- she used her mother's -- they used  43 her mother's father's clan.  44 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  And when —  45 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  For clarification, whose mother's  46 father?  47 MS. MANDELL: 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42 MR.  PLANT  43  44  4 5 MS.  MANDE  46  Q  47  20  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  This is Emily Dennis' mother's father's clan?  Yes.  It's Emily's mother's father's clan.  All right.  And that was -- and that clan was  Gitdumden?  Cass yex.  And that's the house of Woos be yex?  Woos be yex.  Is it the Wet'suwet'en way that the father's side  would be hired to be the undertakers?  Yes.  It's always that way, always father's clan.  Okay.  And what -- what would the father's clan be  hired to do?  The father's clan is always hired and they are always  paid back heavily.  What did -- what did you hire the Gitdumden to do to  prepare for the headstone feast of Emily Dennis?  They hired them to fix the grave and to buy the  gravestone.  Okay.  Good.  Now, did you personally invite people to  the headstone feast?  Catherine Wilson, myself, we went inviting.  Eddie and  Shirley drove us around.  We spent two days inviting  Burns Lake, Old Town and Hagwilget.  Now, Catherine, that's Catherine Arsonault?  Yes.  And she is Laksamusyu?  Yes.  And Shirley is Shirley Charlie?  Yes, Shirley.  It's Catherine's daughter.  And is she Laksamusyu too?  Yes.  And Eddie, is that Eddie Morris?  Eddie's -- Eddie is Eddie Morris and Roy Morris'  brother and that's Gitdumden.  And did you hire Eddie Morris as Gitdumden to help you  do the driving?  Yes.  We hired him to drive and he get paid at the  feast hall.  And Catherine and Shirley were not hired because they  were Laksamusyu and related or obligated to you?  Yes.  They were just help.  :  You -- the name for Catherine was originally given  as Catherine Wilson and then you later asked about  Catherine Arsonault.  Catherine Wilson is the same person as Catherine  Arsonault? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  21  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  Same person.  It's her -- that's her married name.  As you invited people to come to the headstone feast,  what would you do to invite them?  We went out.  After inviting, we -- we were busy  getting ready for the feast.  We spent one week  gathering berries out in the burnt cabin area.  So the  berries were to be used at the feast.  There was meat  all prepared for the feast.  We worked hard at it all  summer long.  What territory did you go to to get the meat for this  feast?  It came from my husband, my old man's territory,  around here, and the burnt cabin area.  All the  berries came from the same area.  I want to ask you whether or not the area where the  meat and the berries had been gathered by you, was  that area mentioned at the feast?  Yes.  It was announced.  Whatever you bring in, you  always tell them where you got it from and have it  announced.  Okay.  I want to -- before we get into the feast and  what was brought and what was done there, I want to go  back and ask you again a question involving the  inviting of people to the feast, and I wonder if you  could describe for -- for us what you would do to  invite people to the feast and what they did in  return?  And when we go out inviting, Catherine done all the  announcing.  She tells them that they are going to  come and witness at a feast for a gravestone and then  they say, yes, they will honour that and they will  come and they give money in place of c'us.  What is c'us?  When -- amongst the Indians, if there's trouble and  then that's when they use c'us, down, which is white,  and when they give us money, they use that money as --  as c'us or down.  Did -- did anybody -- when you were inviting them to  your mother's headstone feast, did anyone actually use  the down or did everybody use money?  No.  They didn't use down.  They just use money.  Okay.  You were --  When we are going to return the down, that is when  they use that c'us for down.  Then the money or down,  which is used in place of down, is returned.  You were telling us about the berries and the meat  which you brought to the feast.  Did you also 22  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 contribute money to the feast?  2 A   The food, berries and meat is all contributed first.  3 Later when the collection starts, that's when the --  4 they put a separate pot there.  I myself and my  5 brothers and sisters, we all donate money to the pot  6 and then after the Laksamusyu, whoever is helping, all  7 contribute after that.  8 Q   Okay.  And how much money did you donate to the pot?  9 A  At the funeral feast, I put in 500 and materials and  10 goods.  There's a total of -- and food stuff, a total  11 of $3,000.  12 Q   And at the headstone feast, did you also contribute  13 money?  14 A  Also the same at the headstone feast.  I put in 500.  15 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  I think maybe we'll take a five-minute  16 break now.  17 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  18 MS. MANDELL:  19 Q   Did Emma Wilson and her husband Jeff Wilson contribute  20 to the headstone feast?  21 A   Yes.  They all contributed, like they did yesterday.  22 Everybody pitches in and contributes.  23 Q   And was it announced from what territory the food that  24 they brought had come from?  25 A   Some bring in apples and bread, which they buy at  26 stores.  27 Q   What food -- do you remember what food Emma and her  28 husband brought in?  29 A  Mostly all store-bought food.  30 Q   And did -- what clan is Emma Wilson?  31 A   I don't think there is any Emma Wilson in Moricetown.  32 Q   It's not Emma.  Is there a Jeff Wilson?  33 A   I don't know any Jeff Wilson.  34 MR. PLANT:  Jack?  35 THE WITNESS:  Jeff — Jeff Williams is one that's helped us.  36 MS. MANDELL:  37 Q   Jeff Williams.  Does he have a wife Emma?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   I'm sorry.  I should have -- it's my mistake.  I had  40 understood that his last name was Wilson.  What clan  41 was Emma Williams from?  42 A   Gitdumden.  43 Q   And what clan is Jeff Williams from?  44 A   Laksamusyu.  45 Q   And did they bring to the smoke -- to the headstone  46 feast food which they had taken from a territory?  47 A   Jeff Williams brought smoked meat or dry meat, 1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  23  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  which -- which he probably brought from his -- from  their own territory.  Do you remember whether it was announced what  territory the meat came from?  It was announced and it was probably brought from his  own territory in Ft. Babine area.  Okay.  And did Augustine Morris contribute food to the  feast?  Yes.  They brought -- also brought dry meat and  berries and a lot of food stuff.  Okay.  And what clan is Augustine Morris?  Laksamusyu.  And was it announced which territory the dried meat  and berries were taken from?  It was announced that the meat and the berries which  she had brought in came from her husband's territory,  Woos, out in the Morris -- Morris River area.  You mentioned earlier that some money had been  gathered, collected from yourself and others, to pay  back the -- to pay back the guests and for those that  had contributed.  Do you recall how much money in  total was collected at this feast?  Eight thousand.  And during the pay back, were the Gitdumden who had  helped with the payment for the headstone paid back at  the feast?  When the -- when they paid -- if any person paid 200  towards the stone, they would get their money back and  then after they would be paid another 200 interest on  top.  And was your driver Eddie Morris also paid back?  Yes.  He was also paid in the same way.  And for all of those who had given you either money or  down when you invited them, were those guests paid  back as well?  Yes.  When the down or money was -- was given to them  when they were inviting, all of that is also returned  and they put it in an envelope and the ones that put  in the most get $5 interest and the ones that put in  $2, they get a dollar interest on top of what they had  given as down.  Okay.  When the -- if -- was there any money left over  after all of this money had been paid out?  After -- at the pay back, all the hired people --  there was approximately $2,000 was paid back and plus  the interest.  There was a total of $3,000 paid back.  Then possibly 6,000 or $5,000 was left, which was 24  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 distributed out to the witnesses at the feast hall,  2 depending on the stature of the guest.  Some got 20 --  3 some got paid 20, $30 and children -- or younger  4 people got $5, which they pay out for people  5 travelling long distance.  They use that to pay their  6 travelling expenses, which they got to pay for their  7 gas.  8 Q   When you pay back the guests who have given you eagle  9 down or money in substitute, is there a dance which is  10 done to pay back these people?  11 A   Yes.  Before when you pay back the down, you have  12 singers and then they -- and then they dance and then  13 after that, the down or money substitute goes back.  14 Q   Okay.  And at the headstone feast of your -- of your  15 mother, were you one of those dancers?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And did you wear your blanket for that dance?  18 A   Yes.  That was the first time I used it.  19 Q   Did any of the chiefs help you in that dance who were  20 not a member of your clan or the Laksamusyu clan?  21 A   Yes.  Yes.  All the spouses of the Tsayu clan, they  22 all contributed, spouses and the children.  They all  23 contributed to -- towards -- towards that.  They put  24 it on the floor and after they finished dancing, then  25 they go back to their respected seats.  26 Q   Is there a Wet'suwet'en name to describe the spouses  27 of the Tsayu and the Laksamusyu?  2 8 A   The spouses are called Andumanuc' and then the  29 children are called Tsayu gul.  30 MR. PLANT:  Can I have those terms, please?  31 THE WITNESS:  That's the children of — of the host clan dance  32 also, like you did the other day.  33 MS. MANDELL:  34 Q   She's referring to you as a translator?  35 A   Yes.  36 MS. MANDELL:  Can you spell the term for the spouses of the host  37 clan?  38 THE SPELLER:  A-n-d-u-m-a-n-u-c-apostrophe.  39 MS. MANDELL:  Did you want the name for the children?  40 THE SPELLER:  Tsayu gul, T-s-a-y-u-g-u-underline-1.  41 MS. MANDELL:  42 Q   Is it part of the Wet'suwet'en law that the spouses of  43 the host clan will participate in paying back the  44 dancers at the stage of the feast?  45 A   Yes.  All the money that they drop on the floor, when  46 they gather it up, they use that money to pay the  47 singers. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37 MR.  PLA1  3 8 MS.  MAN]  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  25  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  Okay.  Okay.  At this feast, did anyone announce that  you were to take the chief's name Kweese?  Yes.  At the time there -- the tendency was still  there that I wouldn't be Kweese at that time.  And were there speeches made debating who should be  the proper successor?  Nobody spoke on it.  There was private conversations  taking place elsewhere amongst the chiefs themselves.  And did any chief from any of the clans come forward  and speak up strongly in favour of your becoming the  successor?  I myself didn't say anything, but nobody -- it seemed  like they were pulling away from me.  They had other  ideas.  Did Dominique West speak up?  He didn't speak at that time.  He didn't say anything  because everybody was quiet at that time, or not  discussing anything.  Was there a time later, although still at the -- at  the smoke -- at the headstone feast, where the chiefs  did speak to each other about who would be the  successor?  They were still leaning towards the same direction  they had before at that time when they did speak.  So who -- who from among the chiefs did speak in  favour of Joshua Holland?  That was three clans were leaning towards Joshua  Holland when they spoke and I myself -- ourselves, we  didn't say anything.  Do you remember which of the three clans that leaned  towards Joshua Holland?  On the Gitdumden side was Mathew Sam, Thomas George,  George Naziel.  Okay.  And then on the other side, Luksilyu side was  Sylvester Williams, John -- John Alfred.  :  John Alfred?  LL:  Yes.  And Peter Bazil, Diiltsai.  Peter Bazil?  And then on the top end amongst the Gilsehyu, David  Dennis, who is Samooh, and Caspit, Jimmy Thomas.  Who spoke out in favour of your -- of your  successor -- you to be successor?  Thomas George Mary, who was Tsaibesa, spoke in my  behalf.  We didn't speak out, but he mentioned that 26  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 whoever would put up the most would be the successor,  2 so he advised me to keep on trying harder.  3 MS. MANDELL:  And was it at this time that Dominique West spoke  4 up?  5 MR. PLANT:  Sorry, Ms. Mandell.  It's rather clearly established  6 three or four times in the record that nobody spoke  7 up.  8 MS. MANDELL:  Well, let's finish — that's not my brief, so  9 we'll finish pursuing it until we get it.  10 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Just a moment.  With the greatest of respect,  11 I don't think it's your brief that we're after here.  12 It's this witness' evidence and I don't have any  13 objection to you leading generally, but we're into  14 really serious cross-examination.  15 MS. MANDELL:  I take your objections and we'll continue until we  16 get the evidence out as it should be.  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  You mean as you are going to give the  18 evidence.  19 MS. MANDELL:  20 Q   The question was whether or not Dominique West spoke  21 out at this time?  22 A  At that time, it seemed like they didn't want me to  23 take the name, and that is when Dominique West jumped  24 up and addressed the chiefs and told them she is in  25 line -- or I am in line -- or she -- Dominique West  26 said, "She is in line for her mother's name.  Nobody  27 else is going to take it.  You must be crazy to say --  28 to oppose -- to oppose her.  So she would be the one  2 9 to take the name."  30 Q   All right.  And was Dominique -- did he — was he a  31 chief?  32 A   He is -- he is a big chief out in Babine area.  I  33 forget his -- his chief name --  34 Q   Okay.  35 A   -- at the moment.  36 Q   And what was his clan?  37 A   Gitdumden.  38 Q   And that's your mother's father's clan?  39 A   He spoke because he was of the father's clan.  40 Q   And did he have particular influence among the chiefs  41 in this decision because of the fact that he was from  42 your mother's father's clan?  43 A   Yes.  That is why they listen to him.  44 Q   And how -- did any of the chiefs speak after Dominique  45 West had finished his speech?  46 A  When John -- John Alfred was speaking, that is when  47 Dominique West jumped up and spoke, and after that, 27  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 nobody else spoke at all.  2 Q   And what did the silence or the fact that there were  3 no further chiefs wanting to speak tell you about who  4 was to be successor?  5 A   So the silence from the chiefs more or less was  6 consensus.  So -- and then at that point we -- we  7 started a collection for the name.  I myself put up  8 $600 and then other clan members who were helping,  9 some of them put up a hundred.  There was a collection  10 of approximately $2,000 which is to be distributed  11 amongst the guests as -- that is -- that money is used  12 for also used in place of material.  There was a lot  13 of material there contributed by the clan members --  14 Q   Okay.  15 A   -- to be passed out.  16 Q   And was it after this too that you were given your  17 blanket and rattle and drum?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And do you remember who passed these items to you?  20 A  My brother Andrew Dennis had possession of it.  After  21 this, he handed everything over to me.  22 Q   And why were these items passed to you?  23 A   Because I am going to be the successor of the name.  24 That is why he gave it to me.  25 Q   Was there any -- was there any announcement when you  26 were given the blanket and the rattle and the drum?  27 A  When Mary George who -- Mary announced that -- that I  28 would be the successor and then she spoke on that and  29 then the money which was collected, $2,000, they use  30 that in place of material and they pass some money out  31 to all the guests.  In some places there was $20  32 passed out.  33 MS. MANDELL:  I think we'll break here for lunch.  34 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A LUNCH ADJOURNMENT)  35 MS. MANDELL:  36 Q   Kweese, we were in the middle of talking about the  37 headstone feast.  Did anyone who attended at the  38 headstone feast of your mother speak about the  39 territory, the fish sites which passed with the name?  40 A   Nobody spoke of it at the time.  After Dominique  41 spoke, nobody spoke on anything after that.  42 Q   Okay.  Before Dominique spoke though, did Thomas  43 George mention anything about the territory?  44 A   No.  45 Q   Did Mathew Sam mention about where the Kweese  46 territory was located?  47 A  After the influence of Dominique West's words, after F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 that decision, nobody spoke on that any further.  Just  2 the chiefs after a while, their closing remarks, thank  3 the host clan and and thank them for the gifts and  4 their closing remarks.  That was about it.  5 Q   Okay.  Did -- did anybody during the time of the  6 speech talk about the Burnie Lake or the Elwin Lake  7 area or your fish sites at Moricetown?  8 A   No.  9 Q   Okay.  10 A   Just recently there was some discussion on it.  11 Q   But not at that feast?  12 A   Not at that feast.  13 Q   Okay.  After the headstone feast, did -- was there  14 those who actually pulled the headstone to the grave?  15 A   In the past it has been tradition that when they take  16 the gravestone to the graveyard, that they pull it  17 with a rope and, in our case, we brought two big rolls  18 of yellow rope which we tied to a sleigh to pull the  19 stone up.  And another thing that's also part of the  20 tradition and ceremony, that the spouses and their  21 children, they put money on the stone.  Sometimes  22 there's so much money on there that some of it falls  23 off to the ground.  And that is some of the things  24 that they did traditionally.  25 Q   Is it members of your clan or members of other clans  26 who would hold the rope traditionally?  27 A   Other hosts -- other than the host clans, there's  28 three clans:  Gilsehyu, Luksilyu and Gitdumden.  They  29 all pull on that rope, the children and all.  30 Q   I'm producing to you a picture of some people who are  31 pulling on a rope and I'm wondering if you could  32 identify what is it that they're doing in that  33 picture?  34 A   This picture is of one of such occasion, pulling of a  35 gravestone.  Adumanacu' are the ones that are supposed  36 to be pulling, also the spouses, and it — sometimes  37 the -- they speak out and say where is -- they mention  38 a name of a spouse and where is that person.  39 Sometimes they have a bottle of liquor and they say,  40 "Oh, that person, his bottle is hidden.  That's why  41 he's not here."  They all say this in gesture, just  42 jokingly.  43 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  I'd like that picture marked as the next  44 exhibit.  45 (EXHIBIT 4:  Photograph)  4 6 MS. MANDELL:  47 Q   Is it common for the Wet'suwet'en to play jokes or 29  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 make jokes at the time of the rope pulling?  2 A   It is -- it is an occasion where there is a lot of  3 joking going on and lot of fun being had by --  4 sometimes when they start feeling really good, they  5 pull the ropes in both ways opposite one another.  6 Sometimes they really get into it.  You can hear them  7 a long ways having fun while they're doing this.  8 Q   During the pulling of your mother's headstone, was  9 there any joke which was played?  10 A  When -- when they're pulling that rope at my mother's  11 gravestone, the people really getting rowdy and they  12 were pulling on it and then Andumanuc' or spouses of  13 the host clan come running in there while they're  14 pulling it opposite each other.  Andumanuc' come and  15 cut the rope on them and then they all fell down and  16 everybody were -- broke out in laughter.  17 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  Is that the end?  Is that the end of  18 that answer?  19 THE INTERPRETER: yes.  20 MR. PLANT:  Have you had the photograph marked as an exhibit?  21 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  22 MR. PLANT:  I'm not sure that the witness identified the  23 photograph, but I'll just put you on notice that -- of  24 my position there and I wonder if you could pass me  25 the photograph and I could have a look at it for a  26 minute before you ask any questions.  27 Thank you.  2 8 MS. MANDELL:  29 Q   Kweese, following the headstone feast and the raising  30 of the headstone, did your clan pay money at a later  31 feast for you to take your seat?  32 A   I didn't finish with that story.  33 Q   Sorry.  34 A  After they cut the rope and then they spliced it again  35 and they finish pulling the rope, the stone up to the  36 graveyard, and there Peter Alfred told the  37 participants in that -- and he told them.  He said,  38 "After this fence there is no liquor allowed inside",  39 and then they pulled a stone into where — the place  40 where it was to be erected.  And after that took  41 place, they took the rope and cut it in sizeable  42 chunks and they distributed to all the people that  43 participated in pulling the stone up to the -- and  44 after they finished distributing the rope, from there  45 they go back to the -- to the hall and that's where  46 the feasting begins.  47 Q   Okay.  Is it common amongst the Wet'suwet'en to 30  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 distribute the rope that pulls the headstone?  2 A   It is -- it is the way the chiefs do things  3 traditionally.  4 Q   When -- now, I'll get on to the next question I had  5 asked you.  Did your clan pay money at a later feast  6 for you to take your seat?  7 A  After the feast was over, I think it was probably two  8 days later, the Gilsehyu clan was hosting a feast and  9 that was how I was invited.  And I went there and they  10 sat me down on my mother's seat for the first time,  11 and that is when my clan members sitting close to me.  12 They all got together and I myself put in money and  13 they all contributed to -- to the pot and I believe  14 approximately $300 was collected, which was passed  15 around to all the guests in the feast.  16 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  Was the money given to the hosting Gilsehyu  17 chief or was it passed around by the Tsayu?  Was the  18 money that was collected, was that given to the chief  19 who was hosting the Gilsehyu feast or was that money  20 passed around by the Tsayu to the guests?  21 MR. PLANT:  Or was it passed around by somebody else?  I'm  22 sorry.  I will object.  There is a problem with  23 questions like that that suggest an answer when the  24 question has a premise in it that isn't substantiated  25 by the evidence, but carry on.  26 THE WITNESS:  Mary George was the one that passed the money  27 around to everybody in the hall and then announced  28 that that is the money to pay for the seat that I am  29 to occupy now.  30 MS. MANDELL:  31 Q   Okay.  And can you recall how much money you  32 contributed to that pot?  33 A   Like, I put in $40 myself and then the clan members  34 put in -- contributed money too.  35 Q   Okay.  Did you -- did you one year later host a drying  36 of the stone feast for your mother?  37 A   Yes.  It was a year later we got ready for it and I  38 myself got one ton of sugar and all the other members  39 helped by contributing some of them, maybe 100 pounds.  40 It all added up to almost two tons of sugar.  41 Q   Is there -- what is the Wet'suwet'en name for the  42 drying of the stone feast?  43 A   I was -- it was suggested to me that I would be drying  44 the stone and so it is called Tsee naeditk'ai.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Could you spell that, please?  Are you saying  46 drying, dragging or --  47 MS. MANDELL:  Drying. 31  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 THE WITNESS:  That is to confirm where I sit in place of my  2 mother.  3 MS. MANDELL:  Will you spell it?  4 THE SPELLER:  Tsee naeditk'ai,  5 T-s-e-e-n-a-e-d-i-t-k-apostrophe-a-i.  6 MS. MANDELL:  7 Q   What did you do with the sugar and the -- with the  8 sugar which you brought to the feast?  9 A  All the chiefs received, I think it was 24-pound bags,  10 and the lesser common people got 10 pounds and the  11 young children got maybe two pounds and there was lots  12 left over, so the chiefs also received 24 more again  13 until it was all gone.  14 Q   Did -- did you contribute meat to this feast taken  15 from any of the territories?  16 A   There's food, meat, all kinds of food there, berries,  17 meat brought in from the territories and I myself was  18 just new at this chiefmanship, so they just let me sit  19 and watch while the more knowledgeable chiefs  20 conducted the feast.  21 Q   Do you remember who actually conducted this feast?  22 A   Camelia Wilson and mother, Namox, Wil'aat, George,  23 their son Leonard George, and Andy George.  They were  24 all there helping.  25 Q   What was Leonard George's chief name at the time?  26 A   Smogelgem.  27 Q   And you said there was meat from -- and berries there  28 from the territories.  Can you remember which  29 territories were announced which had supplied the meat  30 and the berries?  31 A   They mentioned all the different people have access to  32 territories.  It was mentioned where they brought it  33 from.  34 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  I'm wondering whether you remember today  35 where those territories were?  36 MR. PLANT:  I object to that question.  37 MS. MANDELL:  38 Q   Save your objection for trial, not the commission.  39 You can put your objection on the record.  40 A  Augustine was one of them that mentioned that what she  41 brought in came out of her husband's territory out in  42 the Morris River area.  43 Q   Can you remember any other of the announcements?  44 A  Mary said that her stuff that she brought came from  45 her husband's territory in the Owen Lake area.  Her  46 children -- her children done the hunting for them.  47 The place is called Biiwenii. 32  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Q   Do you remember any of the other announcements?  2 A   There's people like Emma and them.  They have  3 territories right around Moricetown.  4 Q   Is that Emma Michell?  5 A   Yes.  6 MS. MANDELL:  Was it announced whether meat which you brought  7 came from any of the territories?  8 MR. PLANT:  I thought it was established that she hadn't brought  9 any meat.  She was just an observer.  10 MS. MANDELL:  That isn't the evidence.  11 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  That is the evidence.  12 MS. MANDELL:  Take your objections up at trial unless you want  13 to use more of the commission time up for them here.  14 MR. PLANT:  Well, Ms. Mandell, I really don't — part of the  15 point of my objection, of stating an objection, is to  16 permit you the opportunity to clarify a question by  17 asking it properly rather than sitting there in  18 silence.  19 THE WITNESS:  The meat that I had brought was brought in from  20 Baptist property, which is in the same clan as my  21 husband.  Jeff Williams is the one that got the meat  22 for us and gave it to -- for me to use at the feast.  23 MS. MANDELL:  24 Q   Okay.  And was this announced at the feast where that  2 5 meat had come from?  26 A   Yes.  There was -- it was also announced that who the  27 hunter was and where the territory was that the meat  28 came from.  It was all announced.  29 Q   Okay.  30 A  And further to that, the Gitdumden clan also gave some  31 of them to help me along.  They give me 50, $100.  So  32 all throughout the summer I was never short of money.  33 I was able to participate in everything.  And then  34 after that, there was a period of time I returned all  35 the money at another potlatch, feast.  36 Q   Did the Gitdumden help you because they were --  37 A   They were my husband's relatives.  38 Q   To your knowledge, has there --  39 A   They call it a woman's blanket.  40 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  I didn't hear that.  41 THE WITNESS:  A woman's blanket.  42 MS. MANDELL:  43 Q   Her husband's relatives, they call that a woman's  44 blanket.  45 To your knowledge, has there been anyone who has  46 spoken out that the Wet'suwet'en laws were not  47 properly followed when you took your chief's name? 33  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A   Nobody really said anything like that.  That's -- in  2 the closing remarks, they -- they express how they  3 feel, that -- how they -- they agree with the way the  4 system went and they -- they also speak of how much  5 money had changed hands, had been spent.  It is only  6 tradition and customs that the spending of money takes  7 place the way it has been.  8 Q   And were there speakers who spoke with approval about  9 the way that the feast went -- feasts went when you  10 took your chief's name?  11 A   Yes.  They all agree that everything went according to  12 feast system and tradition.  13 Q   And when you say "they", are you referring to the  14 chiefs?  15 A   Yes.  They are the only ones that speak.  16 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  Now, your mother who was Kweese, as Kweese  17 she -- she owned the Burnie Lake territory?  18 MR. PLANT:  Please don't lead in this area.  19 MS. MANDELL:  20 Q   Is that correct?  21 A   Yes.  She was -- she had the ownership up there.  22 Q   Okay.  23 A  And they went out every spring.  They went out there.  24 Q   When you say "they went out there", who all went out  25 there?  2 6 A  My mother and my father and the children, Jimmy, Alex.  27 Sam was employed elsewhere, so his wife went out.  So  28 she would do the cooking for them while they were out  29 in the territory.  30 Q   Okay.  When you say Jimmy and Alex, those are your  31 brothers?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And who was Sam's wife?  34 A  Mabel Forsythe's sister's daughter.  35 Q   Do you remember her name?  Can I have her name?  36 A  Margaret.  37 Q   And would others from the clan also sometimes come to  38 the territory?  39 A   Some of them -- some of the people that help us at the  40 potlatch, they usually come along.  41 Q   Can you remember any of those people's names?  42 A   Big Tommy.  43 Q   Big Tommy?  44 A   Frank Bazil.  45 Q   Frank Bazil?  46 A   Frank Bazil is real close in my clan.  Peter Alfred,  47 and Francis Alfred, they also came out there because 34  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 they were Mooseskin Johnny's grandchildren.  2 Q   And how was Big Tommy entitled to use the territory?  3 A   He is of the Laksamusyu clan.  Also when my mother  4 does things, he also helps, so that is why he is --  5 he's out there in the territory with them.  6 Q   Okay.  And when the debate over the name of Kweese was  7 taking place, Joshua Holland was suggested as a  8 possible successor.  Was he also out in the territory?  9 A   Yes.  He also utilize that territory or sometimes  10 Peter and himself went out there alone.  11 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  And can you say at what time — throughout  12 what seasons of the year would you spend on the  13 territory?  14 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  The last answer was either sometimes  15 Peter's son or sometimes Peter his son?  16 THE WITNESS:  Or Peter and himself.  17 MR. PLANT:  Himself, referring to Joshua Holland?  18 THE INTERPRETER:  Right.  19 MR. PLANT:  Thank you very much.  Excuse my interruption.  2 0 MS. MANDELL:  21 Q   Throughout what seasons of the year would you usually  22 spend on the territory?  23 A   They go out around the 1st of March, March, April and  24 they stay right out there until June.  25 MS. MANDELL:  And when you -- when you stay in the territory,  26 where is the cabin where you would be staying?  27 MR. PLANT:  What cabin?  I'm sorry, Ms. Mandell.  I don't mean  28 to interrupt unnecessarily, but it -- there is no  29 point in asking that question unless we find out if  30 there is a cabin.  31 MS. MANDELL:  32 Q   Well, you'll find it out in the answer.  33 A  Mooseskin, he had a house out there in Taal tsii wa  34 yez.  It was a house built like a smokehouse and fire  35 in the centre.  That's where -- we used to all go  36 there and Joshua Holland used to joke a lot and he --  37 he used to keep people laughing all the time.  38 Q   And were there places on the territory where you and  39 your family would trap beaver?  40 A  We trapped beaver, hunting beaver around Taal tsii wa  41 k'aw and where the outflow of -- from Taal tsii wa  42 k'aw called Tl'ogh d'lus g'a we k'aw.  It's a big  4 3 meadow.  44 MR. PLANT:  I beg your pardon?  45 THE WITNESS:  It's a big meadow.  Creek flows towards Ts'ag'we'.  46 MS. MANDELL:  Just pause for a minute and get some of those  47 spellings. 35  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 MR. PLANT:  Well, I now think I heard three names in that.  2 There was trapped hunting beaver from zip, outflow  3 from zip and big meadow flows towards zip.  Zip is not  4 my attempt to reproduce.  5 THE SPELLER:  Okay.  6 T-a-a-underline-1-t-s-i-i-w-a-k-apostrophe-a-w.  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Outflow from is the next one.  8 THE SPELLER:  9 T-1-apostrophe-o-g-h-d-apostrophe-l-u-s-g-apostrophe-a  10 -w-e-k-apostrophe-a-w.  11 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Creek flows toward is the next one.  12 THE SPELLER:  T-s-apostrophe-a-g-apostrophe-w-e-apostrophe.  13 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Can I have the last one again?  14 THE SPELLER:  T-s-apostrophe-a-g-apostrophe-w-e-apostrophe.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Thank you.  16 MS. MANDELL:  17 Q   Is it -- is it common to find beaver where there is  18 the outflows?  19 A   Yes.  2 0 Q   And —  21 A  Where the creek runs out of Taal tsii wa k'aw, runs  22 right through the middle of a meadow.  There's beaver  23 houses all over on both sides of the creek.  24 Q   Would both the men and the women hunt for beaver?  25 A   Everybody hunts beaver and they make camp.  They set  26 up tent.  Tommy -- and this place there's a beaver dam  27 there, a place called Tsee yii k'en ii nai.  Tsee yii  28 k'en ii nai is a big rock jutting out of the water.  29 There's a beaver house right up against it.  That is  30 why they call it Tsee yii k'en ii nai.  Beaver house  31 is k'en.  32 Q   Had you finished in translating her first answer?  33 A   There's a story here.  34 Q   Okay.  35 A   Tommy is still -- my oldest son was still young yet at  36 the time.  He saw two beaver across the meadow and he  37 was on the other side, and so he decided to try and  38 shoot them.  He was shooting at them.  It seemed like  39 they were holding hands.  They kept coming towards me  40 until they reached the creek.  They reach water and  41 jumped in and kept shooting at him.  They made it  42 through the water.  They jumped in, come back.  He was  43 laughing when he come back to camp.  He said two  44 beavers looked like they were holding hands come  45 running towards them trying to get to the water.  4 6 Q   When -- when the men and women are hunting for beaver,  47 what would the children do? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  4 7 MS.  MAN]  36  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  The children that are too young are not usually  brought out to the territory. Some of them are  attending schools.  And when you were a child, were you brought out to the  territory?  We were quite young when we made the first trip out  there.  There was no schools for Indian children at  that time.  The Indian children weren't allowed to go  to white schools at that time.  That is why I do not  read or write now.  Do you remember what you would do on the territory  when you were still -- still a child?  We stayed -- we stayed home.  We kept the fires going,  place warm, do the cooking while they were out  trapping.  Okay.  And have you yourself ever caught beaver on the  territory?  Myself, I never trapped or hunted for beaver, but my  mother and Christine, they used to trap all the time.  Okay.  And that's -- what's Christine's last name?  She was Christine Dennis at that time when she was  single.  Okay.  She's Christine Jimmy now.  All right.  And did she marry one of your brothers?  Is that your sister?  Sorry.  Is that Christine your  sister?  Okay.  Have you -- have you ever prepared --  Frank Jimmy.  Frank.  Have you ever prepared beaver skin?  Yes.  I was -- later on when I grew a little older, I  used to stretch beaver skin and I forget what they  call it.  It -- that time they tie them into oval  shape.  It was -- it was real hard work tying them in  and stretching them, but as of lately I just nail them  to the wall.  I'm going to show you a picture and I was -- and I'd  like you to tell us whether you can identify who the  man was -- is in the picture and -- and what you see  there?  That's Joshua Holland there in the picture, and she's  indicating here they use alder strips along the inside  here and then they use the willows they put on.  That's real hard work.  And then we get this frame and  then you tie that willow through that frame to stretch  it.  That's real hard work, so now I just nail them to  the wall.  LL:  I'd like the picture marked as the next exhibit. 37  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 (EXHIBIT 5:  Photograph)  2 THE INTERPRETER:  May she have a small break?  3 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  5 MS. MANDELL:  6 Q   Florence, how -- how once the beaver was caught did  7 you smoke the meat or prepare the meat?  8 A  When we prepared a meat from the beaver, we fix it.  9 We cut it and fix it just like you would salmon and  10 put it up on skewers and you smoke it, which makes it  11 lighter.  There was no such thing as a deep freeze way  12 out there.  13 Q   And when you say you cut it like salmon, was that  14 cutting strips?  15 A   You cut it down the back, both sides, and along the --  16 along the ribs.  We may cut the meat in one -- to make  17 it thin so for it to dry.  18 Q   And was there a special kind of wood which was chosen  19 to be used to -- to smoke the beaver?  20 A  We use alder.  You peel -- peeled alder and we make  21 rafters out of it and put the beaver meat over it and  22 it dried.  We dry it like that.  We put — we make  23 fire under it.  24 Q   Was the fire built high enough to actually touch the  25 meat or was the meat cooked over a lower -- a lower  2 6 flame?  27 A  We build a -- we build a small fire and just create a  28 lot of smoke.  That smoke is what dries the meat,  29 because if you build too big a fire, then the meat  30 gets bitter, tastes bitter.  31 Q   And how long would it take for the meat to properly  32 smoke in this way?  33 A   Sometimes we leave it up for under the smoke for two,  34 three days and we don't oversmoke it sometimes so it  35 will be tender.  You don't smoke it thoroughly.  It's  36 more or less half smoked.  37 Q   And how often would -- would you or others who were  38 preparing the beaver meat in this way, how often would  39 you check the fire to make sure that it was the  40 right -- the right height?  41 A  We check it constantly.  If the fire or smoke gets a  42 little lower, then we put more on there.  We don't use  43 balsam because it gives it a bitter taste.  We use  44 mostly poplar or alder.  45 Q   And did you usually check it throughout the night?  46 A   It's checked at nights too.  We don't let the fire go  47 out because they want to get -- we want to get this F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 ready for -- so we can take -- take it with us when we  2 leave.  3 Q   Were there any special places on the territory where  4 you would go to smoke the beaver meat?  5 A   Sometimes when we're down Tl'ogh d'lus g'a we k'aw, we  6 smoke it right there because it's a one day's travel.  7 We smoke it right there and sometimes we take the  8 bones all out because the bone part is heavy.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Take all that out?  10 MR. PLANT:  Where was this?  11 MS. MANDELL:  We already have a spelling.  12 THE SPELLER:  That is one of the ones I spelled.  13 THE INTERPRETER:  Big meadow, the big meadow.  14 MS. MANDELL:  15 Q   And was there any smoking done beside the cabin?  16 A  And after they take it out from where they smoke it,  17 then they bring it to the main house and they hang it  18 up again.  19 Q   Okay.  Then my question, was there ever smoking done  20 by the main house?  21 A   They also do smoking there.  22 Q   Do you have any -- any estimate for us as to how many  23 beaver skin your family would take out of the  24 territory in a season?  25 A  We don't take all that many out.  Maybe out of one  26 beaver dam, we would take two in order to conserve and  27 if there's quite a few of us go out there, one season  28 we bring about 40 out.  29 Q   Now, apart from the trapping for beaver, were there  30 any other animals which your family trapped on the  31 territory?  32 A  When we first go out there, we trap marten, fisher,  33 lynx.  We do this while we're waiting for -- for the  34 beaver to first come out in the springtime.  35 Q   Okay.  And are there any wolverine or mink on the  36 territory?  37 A   Yes.  There's wolverine, noostel, wolverine and otter.  38 And around May 15th, the beaver start coming out and  39 then they take all the traps out that's been set for  40 marten and other animals and we start concentrating on  41 trapping beaver.  42 Q   Do you know where within the territory the traps are  43 set for these other animals?  44 A   There's mountain -- mountains on either side of Taal  45 tsii wa k'aw.  We have trap lines going up almost up  46 to the timber line, and this line's going up to one  47 mountain called Tsee zel. 39  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Could I have the spelling?  2 THE SPELLER:  Tsee zel, T-s-e-e-z-e-1.  3 MS. MANDELL:  4 Q   And was it your mother or your father or both who  5 would go trapping?  6 A   They both trap.  They both went in different areas.  7 Sam would go to a different area also.  8 Q   And that's Sam, your brother?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And do you know how the furs taken from these animals  11 were prepared?  12 A  Are you speaking of the beaver?  13 Q   No.  I'm speaking of these other animals that were  14 trapped, the marten, the fisher, the lynx?  15 A  We used traps and my mother kills a lot of fool hen,  16 grouse, and we use that for bait.  That's grouse with  17 red eyebrows.  18 Q   Can you -- can you estimate for us how many marten  19 might the family take out in the -- in a season?  20 A   There again, we also don't take too many.  We only  21 bring out about 20 for the season.  22 Q   And how many fisher might the family take out in a  23 season?  24 A   They're usually quite rare.  You don't catch that  25 many, sometimes two.  2 6 Q   Okay.  And lynx?  27 A  Way out there in the territory, there's rarely any  28 lynx.  Sometimes you catch one, but there's lots  29 around the local area.  30 Q   And would -- would your family take out wolverine in a  31 season?  32 A   They're also rare out there.  Sometimes one or two.  33 Q   And otter?  34 A   There again, we don't kill too many.  We only take  35 maybe two.  36 Q   Okay.  And mink?  37 A   There, the same thing also.  We catch one or two.  38 Q   Did your family go anyplace within the territories to  39 fish?  40 A  When ice starts melting away at outflow of the lake,  41 Taal tsii wa k'aw, I was scared for my mother when she  42 took the net to walk on the edge of ice and she  43 dropped the net in and she used to catch trout,  44 indicating that big.  45 Q   That's about a spread of about two feet with your  4 6 hands?  47 A   Yes.  And also white fish. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  40  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  Was it only that one lake that was used by your family  for -- for fishing?  Mother also always set nets at Taal tsii wa yez, and  there ice melted over a larger area and there was a  boat there which was -- canoe which was — sits  lopsided in the water.  There she fishes.  Pretty  scarce in there and there's only trout, same size as  the other place.  And at one time mother caught two  nice big fat ones and when Mooseskin Johnny seen that,  he asked, "Where did you get that fish from?"  Mother  said, "I got it out in the -- out by the outflow with  a net."  "Did you use that old canoe, that lopsided  canoe?"  She said, "Yes".  He said, "Why?  Are you  hungry?  You endanger yourself by going out in that  old canoe.  Don't ever do that again."  So she never  went fishing there again after that.  Were you present when your mother was having this  conversation with Mooseskin?  Yes.  I was there having supper in the evening when  this conversation took place.  Mother was laughing at  "Look at that old man.  He's full of fish now and he's  giving me heck for it."  Just like a man, eh?  Apart from your eating the fish  from the territory for supper, like you've just  described, were any of these fish prepared in order to  preserve them?  We didn't prepare fish at all.  We only caught what we  were going to eat.  Was there ever fish taken out of the territory?  No.  Too busy trapping.  We didn't have time to go  fishing.  Were you present when your mother named any of the  lakes within your territory?  I wasn't present at that time.  I didn't go out there  anymore because I was raising a family.  Were there any -- or are there, when you were there,  any trails within the territory leading to the  hunting, trapping or fishing places which -- which had  been made by -- which had been man-made, a  person-made?  There was only foot trails and blazes to mark the  trails.  Anytime there was a windfall across the  trails, it was obstructing, they cut that.  The last  time Alex was out there, he mentioned that them trails  are still there that mother had blazed.  Do you know who blazed the -- the trail which is  presently there? 1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  A  41  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  The trails have always been blazed in the past.  Nowadays maybe they've been blazing trails ever since  they had axes.  Now, you can't do that because the  forestry won't allow you to do that.  Did you ever walk on a trail which -- or had you ever  been on a trail which had been blazed by Mooseskin  Johnny?  Some of them blazes made by Mooseskin Johnny are still  there.  I've -- I've travelled with him because there  was times he couldn't see the blazes, so I had to go  along with him to -- to guide him.  Okay.  And did you ever see your father or your  brothers blaze the same trail as Mooseskin had been  on?  Yes.  Alex and them, they reblaze the trail whenever  possible and then they fix the trails up also.  Do you have personal knowledge as to whether or not  any of the other people who would come to the  territory outside of your immediate family also left  their mark on the trails?  The other people have used territory also use the same  trails that we -- we use.  They don't blaze any new  trails because they -- the people that are -- that go  into the territory go in there with permission.  Are there any berry patches which you or your family  have harvested on the territory?  A long time ago there was a lot of berry patches out  there.  Lately there is lot of signs there that there  is berries there in the summer just above Taal tsii wa  yez.  Looks like there could be an abundance of  berries there in the summer.  Did -- when you say a long time ago there were  berries, what kind of berries were there?  Huckleberries.  And —  At the time when they were out there, the trees were  only so big, around six inches round, Jack pine.  But  when Alex and them went out, he said they were log  size, big.  They were going to build another cabin out  there, but the logs were too big.  Did you and your family ever harvest the  huckleberries?  It's pretty hard to pick huckleberries out there when  by the time they leave -- by the time we leave out  there, there's still lots of snow.  Is there any moose in the territory?  There's rarely ever a moose out there because the snow 42  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 is too -- too high for them out there.  Only once when  2 mother and Margaret went out there, they got one  3 moose.  4 Q   Based upon your own personal experience, have you ever  5 been to feasts where the beaver meat or the skins from  6 this territory were used by your family at that feast?  7 A   Ourselves, we bring in beaver hides and then we sell  8 them and use that to buy materials and food stuff  9 for -- for the feast, and we don't bring much more  10 than maybe 10 beavers in because of the weight of  11 the -- the meat to pack all the way in from there.  12 Q   And for those beavers that you do pack in, have you  13 been present where they've been used at a feast?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And when you say that you sold the pelts or the --  16 were they hides?  When you sold the beaver pelts, can  17 you -- can you tell us where you and your family would  18 go to sell those pelts?  19 A   Sometimes when -- when we come in, a fur buyer by the  20 name of Fred Cooke, he -- he lived in Smithers, but  21 he -- they set a date and time when they're going to  22 come out and he would come out to Ts en k'ay kwe and  23 meet them out there and pick up the furs there and  24 there was another man also by the name of -- a short  25 man by the name of George.  He used to come out there  26 also.  27 Q   Is Ts en k'ay kwe close to the territory?  28 A   It's up above the coal mine, a place called Goat  29 Creek.  That's what they call Ts en k'ay kwe.  30 THE SPELLER:  Ts en k'ay kwe, T-s-e-n-k-apostrophe-a-y-k-w-e.  31 MS. MANDELL:  32 Q   And how would your family pack the hides on their way  33 from the territory to the buyer?  34 A   They don't kill too many beavers.  They kill it right  35 out there and then they fold them up and pack it in  36 and sometimes my father or Sam would pack it in.  Just  37 one person packs it.  38 Q   On their back?  39 A   Yes.  And then sometimes we only get about a thousand  40 dollars, maybe 900 at times.  41 Q   And did the fur buyer also take any of the other pelts  42 such as from the marten?  43 A   Yes.  He would buy everything.  The price of pelts  44 weren't all that high.  45 Q   And would your family at the end of the season also  46 pack out the beaver meat?  47 A   Pack out all the beaver meat and about July the 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  43  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  feasting starts and that's when they use all the  beaver meat for the feasts.  How was that meat packed out?  It's really hard packing them out because they fold  them up also and make it into back packs.  And you said that the meat would be brought to the  feasts.  Was the meat used anywhere else but the  feasts?  It was brought out specifically for use in the feast.  Okay.  And the money -- I'm sorry.  Did you finish?  And nowadays all the elders that eat beaver meat all  died off and it's rarely used also now.  The money which was -- which was received from the fur  buyer, where would your family -- how would your  family use that money?  After they sold all the pelts, the money from the  pelts is used for within the feast system.  Sometimes  they go for a month.  They hold a lot of feasts and  sometimes they pretty well spend all the money by that  time and my father just leaves a rifle.  Sometimes  almost in the hole by the time they go back to  Walcott.  After you were married in '37, did you and your family  introduce your family, Gordon Hall, to this family?  He used to go out there with Sam.  I myself didn't go  anymore.  Did you go out in the trip in 1937 when your husband  was introduced to the territory?  When I was present there when we're going out on the  territory at that time, we're going through Telkwa and  Sam said that this man is going to come with us.   She  had no idea that -- I had no idea that he would be my  husband.  I did not want him at all.  Here there is a  lot of respectable men that wanted -- like, for  wanting to court me, and my mother used to chase them  away and yet they bring this man along.  So then I did  not realize that he was going to be the one that I was  going to be married to.  And now it's been over 50  years.  I had children and my mind does not wander  anywhere else at all.  Kweese, in 1937 when you made the trip to the  territory, was the cabin rebuilt in that year?  At that time this man that they took along rebuilt the  cabin out there because when he was trapping, he was  trapping.  He couldn't catch anything.  God knows what  he's been doing while he was single.  Animals didn't  want to come to him at all.  So he -- he couldn't 44  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 catch anything, so he just resorted to building --  2 rebuilding the cabin.  3 MS. MANDELL:  Good for something, eh?  4 MR. PLANT:  Must have been a federal government project, make  5 work.  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Can it.  7 MS. MANDELL:  8 Q   Did this man who didn't know how to trap ever learn to  9 hunt and trap on your territory?  10 A   He didn't go back out to that territory since Sam died  11 because he's very close to Sam.  He didn't feel right  12 going out there after Sam died.  13 Q   And what year did Sam die?  14 A   1959 was when Sam passed away.  And it was a year  15 later, 1960, when he went out there and the cabin that  16 the old man rebuilt was still there.  And Sam's  17 trapping -- trapping gear was still there.  He had a  18 box, alarm clocks, and all -- and everything was still  19 there.  He had to hang it up.  That's when my mother  20 took it down and looked at it and she cried.  I don't  21 want to talk.  22 MS. MANDELL:  Maybe we'll break for the day.  23  24     (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL OCTOBER 15, 1987 AT 10:30 A.M.)  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 45  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 October 15, 1987  2 Smithers, B.C.  3  4 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. MANDELL CONTINUED:  5 Q   This is a continuation of the commission evidence of  6 Florence Hall and today is October the 15th, 1987.  7 Florence, from the late 1930's to the present,  8 have you heard it called out at feasts that meat and  9 furs from the Burnie Lake territory were caught there  10 and by whom?  11 A   Referring to your translator again, your father, and  12 the mother, Alec Tiljoe, we all went on the territory  13 whenever there was death or -- or feast business  14 taking place.  They go out on the territory to prepare  15 for the feast to bring in meat and -- and stuff and  16 then they -- what they bring in from the territory out  17 in that area, it was announced at the feast.  18 Q   In 1962 did you make a trip to that territory?  19 A   Yes.  At that time that is when the raft upset on the  20 way back.  21 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  I'll talk more about the raft in a few  22 minutes.  23 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  I didn't hear that.  24 MS. MANDELL:  25 Q   The raft upset on the way back.  26 Who did you -- who did you travel to the territory  27 with at that trip?  2 8 A  My old man, Alex.  29 Q   That's your brother Alex?  30 A  My mother and my brother-in-law, Andrew Albert.  31 That's all.  32 Q   Okay.  And was the cabin which your husband had built  33 in 1937 still standing then?  34 A   Still standing at that time.  35 Q   Okay.  And yesterday you were telling us that some of  36 Sam's traps were still in the cabin.  Is that the same  37 cabin that your husband had built in 1937?  38 A   Yes.  That's the same cabin.  39 MS. MANDELL:  And while you were there in 1952, what did you  40 notice about the state of the beaver?  41 MR. PLANT:  1952 or '62?  42 MS. MANDELL:  43 Q   '62.  44 A  At that time what few beavers they did catch, they  45 were very scarce and what few they did catch was lean  46 and they looked like they were starving.  And that's  47 what Alex said, that it looked like there was no feed 46  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 for them in the area.  There was lot of Jack pine  2 growing in the area, but beaver don't eat Jack pine.  3 Q   What do the beaver eat?  4 A   They usually eat alder and willows and they were --  5 there was no sign of any -- any of them trees that  6 were around at that time.  7 Q   Did your family make any decisions about how you would  8 deal with the fact that the beaver population was low?  9 A   So about the time after they upset the raft, when they  10 got together down river, the family discussed the  11 situation of what beaver population and during the  12 discussion, I myself advise them that now that beaver  13 population is low, we should leave it alone for a  14 while till such a time as when the beaver population  15 builds up again.  16 Q   Okay.  Do you remember where you were when that  17 discussion took place?  18 A   The forestry -- the forestry had sort of cabin or  19 lodging there, Ts'el k'ai' kwe.  It's called Lamprey  20 Creek.  That's where -- they had two cars there  21 waiting and went into the house and they had a family  22 meeting there.  That's where there was discussed that  23 they would not go back out in that territory because  24 of the beaver population being low.  They would leave  25 it alone for some time.  26 Q   Have you authorized anyone at the present time to look  27 after this territory?  28 A  Alex Dennis, James Dennis and Michael Alfred and  29 Alfred Michell.  All their names are on that registry  30 in that territory.  31 Q   Okay.  And have any of these people with your  32 knowledge gone into the territory within the last few  33 years?  34 A   James and Alex approximately two years ago flew out  35 there and they spent 20 days out there.  Again, Alex  36 said the same thing; that there was no feed out there,  37 and he said possibly it was covered with snow and he  38 didn't see it.  39 Q   Have you -- have you decided whether -- based upon  40 what Alex told you, what is your assessment of the --  41 of the current state of the beaver population in the  42 territory?  43 A  When Alex and them went out there, what all they did  44 was walk all the trails while they're out there  45 because they couldn't trap because all the traps were  46 gone.  They had been taken and also the roof of the  47 cabin had fallen in. 47  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 MS. MANDELL:  Do you know who took the traps?  2 MR. PLANT:  I'm just going to note that most of the last six or  3 eight questions have been objectionable if they had  4 been intended to obtain answers which are being  5 offered for the truth of their content.  But I'm not  6 going to interfere with the conduct of your  7 examination.  8 MS. MANDELL:  9 Q   Do you know who took the traps?  10 A   The pilot that was flying the plane told Alex and them  11 that he knew where the traps were.  Because of the  12 roof caving in, they had been put elsewhere.  13 Q   Have you made a decision about hunting beaver in that  14 territory at the present time?  15 A   Jim said that on his next holiday, he going to fly out  16 again and they're going to rebuild the cabin.  That is  17 what he is planning.  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Miss Mandell, I just note for the record again  19 that my silence is not to be taken as not objecting to  20 the admissibility of some of this evidence.  21 MS. MANDELL:  22 Q   Have you given your approval to Jim to rebuild the  23 cabin?  24 A   I have given him permission and I told him to build  25 the cabin out there.  When they were out there the  26 last trip, they were going to rebuild it, but where  27 the cabin was years ago, trees were small, but now  28 they're -- they're too big for rebuilding the log  29 cabin.  30 Q   What are your -- can your describe what your feelings  31 are towards this territory at Burnie Lake?  32 A   There's a lot of sentimental value and reasons in that  33 territory.  Because of that territory, most of our  34 elders may have through hardship passed on because  35 every time there's a death within the clan, a feasting  36 is to be -- a feast is to be conducted.  They all went  37 out in that territory to get ready for the -- for the  38 feasts.  So knowing that my parents utilize the  39 territory for occasions like this and the hardship  40 that they went through, we have a lot of sentimental  41 feelings towards it.  42 Q   Does -- does Kweese have a fishing site?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And what is its Wet'suwet'en name?  45 A   Kweese's fishing site is Dee k'iit k'eet.  46 MS. MANDELL:  Do you want the spelling?  47 MR. PLANT:  Yes, please. 48  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 THE WITNESS:  And above that is Smogelgem's fishing site,  2 K'aitiltluk.  3 THE SPELLER:  Dee k'iit k'eet,  4 D-e-e-k-apostrophe-i-i-t-k-apostrophe-e-e-t.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm sorry.  I missed the beginning.  6 THE SPELLER:  D-e-e-k-apostrophe-i-i-t-k-apostrophe-e-e-t.  7 MS. MANDELL:  Do you want Smogelgem dam site too?  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, please.  9 THE SPELLER:  K'aitiltluk, K-apostrophe-a-i-t-i-1-t-l-u-k.  10 MS. MANDELL:  11 Q   Where is -- where is your fishing site located?  12 A   It's across -- across the river, there's a rock  13 jutting out.  That's Smogelgem, and next to it, below  14 is Dee k'iit k'eet.  15 Q   And which is this river that you're talking about?  16 A   It's -- the whole river is called Wets'en kwe.  That  17 would be the Bulkley River.  Right up to Houston is  18 called Morris River and all through this area is  19 called Bulkley Valley.  20 Q   And is your fishing site near the village of  21 Moricetown?  22 A   It's at Moricetown.  It's right -- the fishing sites  23 are just above where the bridge is -- goes across.  24 Q   Okay.  And have you fished at your fishing site?  25 A  A long time ago when my father was alive, he used to  26 do the fishing for us and after that, my husband  27 fished for us, but since we haven't been living in  28 Moricetown, a lot of different people have been using  29 it.  30 Q   Okay.  I'm going to ask you about those people later,  31 but first if I could take you back to the time when  32 your father was doing the fishing for the family.  Did  33 you go down to the fishing site with your father at  34 that time?  35 A   Just above -- just above the fishing site there was  36 Kweese's big smokehouse.  37 Q   Okay.  38 A   So we all -- we were all there helping.  39 Q   What season -- first of all, what is a smokehouse?  40 A   It's a place where you smoke salmon.  There's a fire  41 in the centre and it's strictly used for smoking  42 salmon.  People don't live in there.  43 Q   And where was -- did Kweese have a smokehouse?  44 A   Yes.  That is where we -- that's where we were at.  45 Q   Okay.  I wonder, can you describe where is the  46 smokehouse located in relationship to the fishing  47 site? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  49  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  Just straight up above from where the fishing site  was, that's where the smokehouse was and there was two  of them there.  And did -- did both those sites -- both those  smokehouses belong to Kweese?  I was pretty young at that time.  There was two of  them and I'm not sure.  The other one may have been  Laksilyu.  I'm not sure, because later on when we went  back to Moricetown, then the smokehouses were burnt  down because they were told to burn them down.  They  were there when they got -- they were gone when we got  back.  Do you know about what year it was that the  smokehouses were burnt down?  They were still there approximately 1930.  They  could -- they could have been burnt about 1932.  I  understand that it was the white people that told them  to burn them smokehouses down for tourist reasons.  Do the Wet'suwet'en speak about what happened to the  smokehouses?  I just remembered they burnt these smokehouses about  the time when they were building the fish ladders and  at the same time, that is when they promised -- or  told us -- told them that they were to use deep  freezers to put up their fish instead of smoking them.  When you say they burnt the smokehouses down, who do  you believe burnt the houses down?  I think the natives themselves burnt the -- burnt the  smokehouse down because they were told to do so.  They  were told that they were -- they were unsightly  because of tourist season.  All right.  And do you know who told the natives to  burn down the smokehouse?  I am not sure who told them to do that and at the same  time, a non-native tried to take possession of the  canyon, but the Indians won't let go at all.  Did anybody tell you what happened to the smokehouses?  They were told to burn them smokehouses down for  tourist reasons and before that, also there were fish  traps by Azelane and her husband on this side and then  across there was another fish trap just above where  the fish ladder used to be.  They were also told not  use them there anymore.  How do you know what the natives were told about the  smokehouses?  Everytime we went back down to that area, Moricetown,  we heard all the Indians talking about it and meetings 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  50  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  and stuff like that.  Okay.  What time of the year would your family come to  stay at your fishing site and by the smokehouse?  We -- we come back from Walcott about June and then  start making fish, but I don't know who these people  were that was imposing restrictions.  It could have  been game warden or fish warden, fish warden.  Okay.  What kind of salmon or what kind of fish would  you catch at your fishing site?  That fishing site catch all spring salmons.  Okay.  Did your father or any other Wet'suwet'en build  any structure at your fishing site to make it easier  to catch fish?  They construct a platform.  Looks like a big table at  that fishing site.  They had a feast before they done  that in 1930's and they hire somebody to erect that or  construct that platform.  And how -- what method did your father use to catch  the fish from the -- catch the fish from there?  When they -- after they construct that platform, they  stand on it and they gaff from there.  Can you explain why the -- why the people held a feast  before they built the platform?  I'm not sure, but -- but the chief that own that --  that fishing site at the time was the chief that  owned -- was doing that at that time.  When your -- your father was -- was gaffing fish, did  you and your mother help in any way?  Our job was to -- to clean the fish and gut it right  down -- down at the fishing site, and from there is  taken up to -- there's a place by the smokehouse where  they are hung up and wind dried for -- for a while.  Then they're taken down and they're prepared for  smoking.  Is there a particular kind of wood which you would use  for the smoking?  They use pop -- they use poplar trees but mostly  driftwood, which they call Dez, but that usually piles  up on the other side of the river during high water.  When it dries up, they cut it all up and it was used  by all the smokehouses around.  And did you gather wood?  Yes.  They gather that wood.  They cut it in short  pieces and they use in all the smokehouses.  Some of  the people pack it around to the smokehouses.  How did you haul the wood from the area to the  smokehouse? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  51  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  When Sam and them was younger, they later on used cars  to bring wood.  They would put it in the trunk of the  car and they brought it down to the smokehouses.  Did you haul wood before there were cars?  Before there was vehicles, they would cut these wood,  approximately three four feet long, and they would  pile it up and tie up the ends and they — the ladies  would pack it on their back crosswise across their  back.  Sometimes depending on the weight, they would  have four or five pieces of wood tied together.  Can you describe in relation to your fishing site  where it is that the wood is gathered?  When they start fishing, they usually gather wood and  bring it across on the other side before they start  fishing.  They have stockpile outside.  You say "bring it across".  Is it -- is the wood  located at a location across the Bulkley River?  All the driftwood that piles up that comes down the  river where they get it from is across from the --  where they're fishing, where our fishing site is, and  it's Wil'aat smokehouse and it's almost directly --  the driftwood piles up almost directly in front of  their place.  Okay.  And then just further down a little ways is a  smokehouse belong to K'enegh layex and also another  one by -- that belongs to Kwen be yex.  Them ones  there from that smokehouse, they just pack it around.  When -- when your husband Gordon would do the fishing  at your site, would he also gaff?  After we were there for about one year, he had a  sawmill just a little east of there.  He was busy with  that, so he can't gaff anymore after that.  And when he did go down to the -- to your fishing  site, how would he fish?  At that time when we left my -- I had two boys ready  to go to school and I didn't want them to go to that  school in Moricetown, so I decided to take them to  Walcott and that is when my -- my old man was going to  run a sawmill, but he decided to come along.  He baled  all the hay and took the sawmill apart and the two  boxcars, filled it all up with their belongings, and  sold all the cattle.  They had 11 head of cattle and  they sold them all and came down Walcott with us, and  that's where we spent most of our time.  I'm going to ask you about your life at Walcott in  more detail later, but I'd like you to concentrate at 1  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  52  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  the moment at whether or not while you were living at  Walcott and before, did you and your family come back  to the Moricetown in the summertime and fish?  We never did move back to Moricetown after we moved to  Moricetown -- I mean Walcott, so my husband took the  sawmill down there and he started sawmilling down  there.  He was awful busy at the time and never did  move back to Moricetown again, never did go back.  Okay.  While you were at Walcott, how did you get your  fish?  We never did go to Moricetown to go fishing because my  old man was busy sawmilling and I was taking care of  the children going to school, but my relatives used to  bring fish down to us.  Okay.  And before you -- do you know where the -- do  you know -- first of all, which relatives, can you  recall, would bring you fish?  My own brothers, Jimmy, Alex or Andy, would bring some  down, and we also had some people from Moricetown  working for us.  Occasionally you'd run into  Moricetown after supper to get some, which I canned.  Before you moved to Walcott, would your husband Gordon  use your fishing site?  Yes.  Some days he was to fish for us when we were  making smoke salmon.  Okay.  And did he gaff?  Yes.  He gaffed.  He learned how to gaff.  After -- after the smokehouses had been burnt around  1930, where after that would you and the others smoke  their fish?  Yeah.  They had -- we lived at -- after that we lived  at my father's property.  They had small smokehouses  near the house.  That is where we smoked our salmon.  Are you aware that a rock was blasted at Hagwilget?  Yes.  I heard of it.  And do you know or have any idea approximately what --  what time or in what year that blasting occurred?  I heard about that blasting of the rock in Hagwilget.  They used to have fishing sites down there, but they  all been blasted now.  They can't catch any fish down  there, much the same as Moricetown where they built  fish ladders.  They ruined some fishing sites.  It's  about the same time when they burnt all the  smokehouses.  Okay.  Did you notice any changes in the number of  Wet'suwet'en people fishing at Moricetown after the  blasting of the rock at Hagwilget? 53  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A   Yes.  About that time the white man is trying to  2 instruct the Indians to live in a non-native fashion;  3 told them to use deep freezes and not smoke salmon at  4 that time.  5 Q   Were there more Wet'suwet'en people who were -- or  6 less?  Was there any change in the number of  7 Wet'suwet'en people who were using the fishing sites  8 at Moricetown after the rock was blasted?  9 A  After fish ladder was constructed, there was a change.  10 There was less fish in there and -- yes.  There was  11 hardly any salmon being smoked after that.  Now, it's  12 only those people that have small smokehouses around  13 their residence.  They are the only ones that smoke  14 salmon now.  15 Q   Have you given your authority to any Tsayu or  16 Laksamusyu people to use your fishing site today?  17 A   In the past, Augustine's grandmother and them used to  18 help us in potlatch and they used to use fishing  19 sites.  And also -- but just recently last summer,  20 they barely got any fish at all.  Our deep freeze is  21 empty this winter.  22 Q   Who -- what is Augustine's last name?  23 A  Morris.  24 Q   And do you know the name of her grandmother?  25 A  Azelane.  Augustine's mother is Camelia.  2 6 MS. MANDELL:  And what is —  27 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  I can't keep up with that.  Augustine's  28 mother is Camelia and her grandmother is who?  2 9 MS. MANDELL:  30 Q   Azelane.  What clan are they?  31 A   Laksamusyu.  32 Q   And have you -- have you -- have you authorized any  33 other Laksamusyu to use the fishing site?  34 A  All the Laksamusyu people are using that site.  35 Q   Okay.  And do any of the -- or have any of those  36 Laksamusyu fishermen given you fish in the recent  37 years?  38 A  My sister Amanda, Gunanoot, she was wanting fish just  39 earlier this summer and and she didn't get any fish  40 from anybody, so she got mad.  They had some gaff  41 poles sitting by the fish sites.  She threw them into  42 the water and the people get angry and they didn't  43 give us any fish.  44 Q   Last summer were you given any fish by any of the  45 Laksamusyu fishermen?  46 A  After Amanda done that, I didn't go down there, so  47 scared. 54  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Q   Last summer were you given fish from any of the  2 Laksamusyu fishermen?  3 A  A year before, me and my daughter Marianne, we went  4 down Moricetown and I went down to the fishing site  5 and I approached Leonard, Catherine Arsonault's son,  6 and we asked him to give us some fish and he said that  7 "I'm fishing for people that don't have any fish.  8 There's lots there.  Just help yourself."  So there's  9 a bunch of young people sitting there.  They helped us  10 take it up to Marianne's car.  Had a bunch of garbage  11 bags and the kids, they helped us put it into the  12 garbage bag and they loaded it up in the car for us.  13 We got about 15 salmon.  We took that home and that  14 just about filled up our deep freeze at that time.  15 But this year we didn't get any at all.  All the  16 children that helped us, the ones that worked hard, I  17 give them $5 each.  The other ones, I give them $3 and  18 all the young children all appreciated that.  There  19 was a store across.  They all went running up there.  20 They were all really happy.  21 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  I'd like to ask you some questions about  22 the territory at Walcott.  You already have told us  23 that you and your husband lived there, but I'd like to  24 ask you if you stayed in the territory at Walcott  25 before you were married with your mother and your  26 father?  27 THE INTERPRETER:  Are you going to be long on this?  28 MS. MANDELL:  We'll go for a while on it, 15 more minutes or so.  29 Do you want me to repeat the question?  30 THE INTERPRETER: yes.  31 MS. MANDELL:  32 Q   Did you stay at the territory at Walcott before you  33 were married with your -- with your family?  34 A  We always lived at Walcott before that, but we used to  35 come to Moricetown around June to go fishing and we  36 stayed there till fall time -- fall time when it was  37 time to go back to trap.  38 Q   Okay.  And so what season -- seasons of the year would  39 your family be at Walcott?  40 A  We would go back to Walcott about this time of the  41 year.  42 Q   And how long would you stay there?  43 A  My father used to make ties down there and they had a  44 lot of boys from Moricetown working there for us.  45 Sometimes used to get about 5,000, and my mother used  46 to travel around by herself travelling.  47 Q   Okay.  What can -- you say that you went there usually 55  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 around fall, around the season.  Into what month would  2 you usually stay at Walcott with your family?  3 A  We would go back there and by that time, my father  4 would wait for the forestry instruction.  Meanwhile,  5 we used to make roads in there where they were going  6 to cut ties.  7 Q   Would you be at Walcott throughout the winter?  8 A   Yes.  We stayed there all winter.  9 Q   All right.  Did your father have rights to the Walcott  10 territory?  11 A   Yes.  He owned that territory.  12 Q   And do you know -- do you know how he got the rights  13 that he had to the territory?  14 A  A long time ago, my father's grand-father, Smogelgem,  15 he's getting old, having a hard time at Walcott, so  16 they -- they took him back to Hagwilget.  They used  17 two poles to pack him back there and that's where he  18 passed on, and a year passed and nothing was being  19 done about his grave, so my father took it upon  20 himself to have the grave fixed and after -- well, we  21 got the grave fixed and also he got a stone which he  22 paid $700 at that time and that's how he got that  23 territory at Walcott as compensation.  24 Q   What clan was Smogelgem?  25 A   Laksamusyu.  Almost the same as our clan.  26 Q   Do you know whether any of the -- oh, was Smogelgem a  27 high chief of the Laksamusyu?  28 A  As a result of -- Smogelgem is a high chief and his  29 grave wasn't being fixed and father took it upon  30 himself to buy a stone and have the grave fixed and  31 when they had a feast and Rose and Theresa and  32 McKenzie, that was their names, was Smogelgem.  33 MR. PLANT:  I beg your pardon?  34 THE WITNESS:  Smogelgem.  Rose was Tsaibesa and Theresa was  35 Luumk'en.  36 MS. MANDELL:  37 Q   It's one of the plaintiffs.  Anyways, did you want to  38 finish that?  39 A   That -- when they had the feast, that's when they  40 told -- told him that he could use that territory at  41 Walcott until -- until he passes on.  42 Q   Okay.  43 A   He used to use that territory during his lifetime.  44 Q   And this is -- just so we have it on the record, Rose  45 is Rose Brown; is that correct?  46 A   That's Rose Brown.  Rose Brown is Tsaibesa.  47 Q   And was it Mr. McKenzie who was Smogelgem? 56  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And Theresa, is that Theresa Grey, who was Luumk'en?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And she was Luumk'en?  5 A   Yes.  At that same time, that's when McKenzie became  6 Smogelgem.  7 Q   So then it was the feast where McKenzie became  8 Smogelgem that -- that the Laksamusyu gave to your  9 father rights to Walcott?  10 A   Yes.  It was at the same time.  11 Q   Were you present at that feast?  12 A   I don't -- I wasn't even around that time.  13 Q   Did somebody tell you about this feast?  14 A  My father was single at that time.  He was young.  My  15 father told us about it.  16 MS. MANDELL:  I think we'll break for lunch.  I'm going to be  17 about another three-quarters of an hour after lunch.  18 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A LUNCH ADJOURNMENT)  19 MS. MANDELL:  We had hoped to have sworn the affidavit during  20 lunch.  It took the whole lunch hour and we're about  21 half-way through the translation of it.  What I  22 propose that we do is to finish off this round of  23 questions minus the affidavit and adjourn until  24 tomorrow morning and we'll complete the swearing of  25 the affidavit if she's able to this afternoon and if  26 not, first thing tomorrow morning and begin with that  27 latter part of the direct examination tomorrow and we  28 can get in as much cross as can be done during the  2 9 day.  30 MR. PLANT:  All right.  Are you -- are you -- is it your idea  31 that you're just going to produce this affidavit and  32 that's it for examination on this subject area?  33 MS. MANDELL:  On this subject area.  34 MR. PLANT:  Okay.  Well, I'm going to oppose that and I'm just  35 wondering what the most expeditious way of proceeding  36 is because I -- I'm also going -- I'm not going to  37 proceed with any cross-examination until we get a  38 ruling on the admissibility of the affidavit.  Maybe  39 we could find a way of accommodating all of that and  40 still get people on the plane tomorrow morning.  I'm  41 not -- it doesn't make that much difference to me.  42 MS. MANDELL:  Well, if the only thing that will happen tomorrow  43 morning from your point of view is that we put in the  44 affidavit, you put your opposition on the record --  45 we've got some further questions beyond that, but not  46 a great deal.  There's some.  Perhaps there's -- I see  47 there's two federal counsel here.  One could remain 57  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 and one could leave and that's -- if you're not going  2 into cross, that's what could take place tomorrow.  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm sorry.  I'm not following that.  I had  4 understood that you're going to complete all of your  5 examination of the witness except for --  6 MS. MANDELL:  No.  There's another area of questioning besides  7 the affidavit, but it's not a long area and I propose  8 that we don't -- that we go as far as we can today  9 minus what there is yet to do tomorrow, which will be  10 the affidavit and another area, and that we'll resume  11 tomorrow morning for that and if -- if both Federal  12 Crown -- it isn't convenient for both of you to be  13 here, that one of you remain.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I think it's desirable that you complete your  15 examination and whether the affidavit goes in or  16 doesn't go in, it seems to me not to determine whether  17 we're going to finish tomorrow.  We will not.  I would  18 say that if -- if -- even if the affidavit went in and  19 covered that area and we were prepared to  20 cross-examine on it, and I can't tell you that until  21 I've had an opportunity to look at that affidavit  22 whether I would be prepared to cross-examine on it  23 without notice at this time, whether we would then  24 consent to it going in, because I do take the position  25 that you require our consent in these circumstances  26 without an order for it to go in, and I can't tell you  27 that I can consent until I've had a chance to see it  28 and consider it.  29 Leaving that aside, it would seem to me that if  30 you feel at this time that it will take you the  31 balance of the day to -- to not complete your evidence  32 and you will still take some small amount of time  33 tomorrow to complete the evidence before  34 cross-examination were to start, it is not possible  35 for both parties to complete cross-examination  36 tomorrow even if we stay all day.  By my calculations,  37 the maximum amount of time that we're able to complete  38 in one day is three and a half hours and that's a very  39 full day of actual time spent examining or  40 cross-examination.  That being the case, I would  41 propose that since we have to return to cross-examine,  42 our complete cross-examination of this witness anyway,  43 that we do adjourn tomorrow morning in time to meet --  44 to catch the earlier plane back.  I'm quite happy to  45 come in early tomorrow morning and do an hour if we  46 can.  If we came in at nine -- started at nine, we  47 should be able to get an hour, maybe an hour and a F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 half in and perhaps you could complete.  2 MS. MANDELL:  What time does the flight go out?  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  11:15.  4 MR. PLANT:  Check in time is 11:14 for that flight.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I would think if we were prepared to leave  6 from the courthouse, we would have to -- we  7 anticipated we would have to leave by 10:30 on the  8 nose, be leaving here for the airport, and that would  9 give us adequate time and I would be happy to -- to if  10 the witness is prepared to do so and if you're  11 prepared to start at nine and go until 10:30 and get  12 in an hour and a half of evidence, and that will be my  13 proposal.  14 MR. PLANT:  It sounds reasonable to me.  I mean, obviously it  15 depends on what the volume of evidence is that you  16 have to finish.  I would prefer that you complete your  17 examination in chief.  18 MS. MANDELL:  Before we break.  I do too.  You see, the point is  19 if the affidavit is not going to go in, we would leave  20 it out of Kweese and oral evidence of the information.  21 MR. PLANT:  We would not oppose your continuing in examination  22 in chief on that basis.  23 MS. MANDELL:  Well, for my point of view, I'm happy to come in  24 at nine and go till 10:30.  Our -- what I don't know  25 is her stamina.  She's been going since nine o'clock  26 this morning and had no lunch break and we're going to  27 go further and if there's no awake time that she's got  28 after court to do what remains to be done, then I  29 can't commit to coming back at nine o'clock in the  30 morning, because that's the time that we would  31 complete the affidavit with her.  So I suggest at this  32 point that we finish what we can do now and we'll be  33 in touch with each other throughout later this  34 afternoon and confirm the starting time tomorrow.  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  That's fine.  Okay.  36 MS. MANDELL:  37 Q   Okay.  Kweese, we're back to Walcott.  We're taking  38 you all over the map today.  Can you describe the  39 boundaries of the territory that your father received  40 as compensation at Walcott?  41 A   On the north end of boundary, there's a corner post,  42 like a corner at Deep Creek, and further up the hill  43 is a red rock bluff called Del k'ok'.  It's a red rock  44 bluff.  That is the boundary between Wah Tah kw'ets'  45 territory, half-way through Wah Tah kw'ets' territory  46 or boundary.  Territory boundary, I should say.  47 MR. PLANT:  Is that all? 59  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  That's it.  2 MS. MANDELL:  3 Q   Did you describe all of the boundaries of that  4 territory?  5 A   The line runs directly up from the red rock bluff  6 towards Neelgii and where the corner of that boundary  7 is almost up to the timber line on Neelgii.  That  8 Neelgii is a Gitdumden mountain.  That rock belongs to  9 not the mountain.  The rock belongs to Gitdumden.  10 Q   What did your father do at Walcott?  11 A   Just before that, she mentioned -- I got that the  12 boundary runs easterly from that corner.  And the line  13 continues from -- from there and there's another  14 corner in the boundary, a place called Bex c'ed diil  15 yes, and there -- from there it runs directly --  16 directly north and the Bex c'ed diil yes, this is  17 where the war party went through there at one time in  18 the past.  19 Q   Okay.  The war party you're referring to, is that the  20 war party in the --  21 A   That is that -- where that corner boundary -- there's  22 Bex c'ed diil yes.  That is the place where the war  23 party lost all the caribou.  24 Q   That's from the raid on Kitimat's history?  25 A   Yes.  That's the same war party.  And then the line  26 runs directly north from there.  The creek -- the line  27 runs along the creek, Yel k'us kwe.  In English it's  28 Sunset Creek.  29 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Did you say Sunset?  30 THE INTERPRETER:  Sunset Creek.  31 THE SPELLER:  You want it?  32 Y-e-underline-1-k-apostrophe-u-s-k-w-e.  33 THE INTERPRETER:  Did you say y?  34 THE SPELLER:  Y-e-1-underline-k-apostrophe-u-s-k-w-e.  35 THE WITNESS:  And then that line goes across.  There's a railway  36 steel bridge on this side of it, westerly side.  The  37 line goes across right down to the river and that's  38 where the other corner is.  Walcott isn't very big.  39 MS. MANDELL:  40 Q   What did your father do at Walcott?  41 A  My father took sick and he's ill all the time, so he  42 turned Walcott over to Jimmy to look after and he was  43 going to -- it was going to be returned to Luumk'en,  44 Theresa, and -- but our clan had been helping them  45 quite a bit in their feast system, so it didn't really  46 matter because we all worked together, so he let us  47 hang on to it. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  60  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  When you say "he let us", is that Luumk'en?  Speaking of my father, but when he said that, Luumk'en  told him that they always helping them in -- in the  feast system, so they can -- they can use it to keep.  Were you told this by your father?  Yes.  Yes.  I -- he was the one who told us that and I  was there.  I heard it myself and when we used to go  to potlatch at Hagwilget, we used to stay and visit  them and they used to talk about his -- his plans.  Okay.  Before your dad -- your father got sick, what  did he do at Walcott?  He used to just live around there and he was unable  to -- he was unable to go hunting and trapping.  Just  my mother done all the hunting and trapping.  Do you know what -- whether your mother had a trapping  line at Walcott?  They had about approximately two or three lines going  up towards Neelgii.  They had trails in there for  trapping, and her and Sam used to go up there  sometimes.  They spent two nights out there checking  traps.  Okay.  And did you ever go with your mother on the  trap line?  We used to travel with them.  When mother didn't go  out to check the traps, me and Christine used to.  Okay.  And what animals would your mother trap at  Walcott?  Marten, mink, lynx and they had bigger traps for  larger animals also.  Larger animals such as what?  It was set for lynx and mink.  And did the children have animals which — which you  would be catching?  As soon as they're old enough to go trapping on their  own after they finish school.  And do you know where your mother would take the  animal skins after they had been trapped?  The fur buyer used to come and visit us and we would  sell it to him.  And do you have any memory as to how much money your  mother might make every year?  She didn't make very much.  The price of furs wasn't  very good.  Okay.  And did your father do any logging at Walcott?  He went logging there when he wasn't sick.  Okay.  And did he hire any people to work with him?  They had some young people from Moricetown come to 61  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 work for him.  2 Q   Did you observe whether your father's logging  3 operation interfered with your mother's trapping?  4 A  Mother's trap line was way out towards the mountains  5 and my father's logging didn't interfere with her  6 trapping because they were way around -- just around  7 the station area, the railroad station area, and they  8 only took timber that was the proper size.  They  9 didn't cut small timber or timber that was too big  10 when they were cutting ties.  11 Q   Do you know -- do you know whether your father  12 registered a trap line at Walcott?  13 A   Yes.  They are registered.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm sorry.  I didn't hear that.  15 MS. MANDELL:  16 Q   Yes.  He had it registered.  17 What is your understanding as to why he registered  18 that trap line?  19 A   The game warden told my father if he didn't register  20 the trapping territory, that it would not belong to  21 him and that is why he registered, much the same  22 reason we register it now.  23 Q   And have you registered that -- a trapping -- a  24 registered trap line at Walcott today in your name?  25 A   Yes.  Yes.  I have it registered in my name.  26 Q   Did your father tell you why he registered his trap  27 line?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   Do you know whether or not your father made an  30 application to the government to build a house at  31 Walcott?  32 A   He made an application for a permit to build a house,  33 but they were -- they didn't allow him at all, so he  34 told them -- he even tried to buy land, but he wasn't  35 allowed.  So he told them he was going to build a  36 house anyway.  They told him to go ahead, which he  37 did, and that whole log house is still standing yet.  38 Q   Do you know -- did your father tell you this?  39 A   Yes.  He told us.  40 Q   Did your father tell you why they didn't give him a  41 permit to build a house?  42 A   Yes.  I'd say that they didn't want to give -- let any  43 Indians own property and then they take all the  44 Indians and make reserves for them and they put them  45 inside there just like a bunch of cattle with a fence  46 around them and they leave them there until -- until  47 such a time as when they die.  That's what my -- 62  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 that's what my father thought of the whole system.  2 MS. MANDELL:  Did your father tell you why he applied to the  3 government to build a house there?  4 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry, Miss Mandell.  Could you just clarify for  5 me the basis on which all of this evidence is  6 admissible?  7 MS. MANDELL:  It's -- it forms her -- her understanding as to --  8 as to why and on what basis her father was -- was  9 seeking permission from the government with respect to  10 the house he was in.  He's deceased and he passed this  11 information on to her.  12 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  My silence should not be taken as  13 acceptance.  14 THE WITNESS:  The white people figure they own the land and that  15 is why he was asking them for -- for a piece of  16 property.  17 MS. MANDELL:  18 Q   While you and your family were staying at Walcott,  19 would you go to feasts in Moricetown?  20 A   Yes.  We used to travel there.  21 Q   And how would you know when a feast was to occur  22 there?  23 A  We all notified somehow and if our own clan are doing  24 business, they make sure we get the word of the feast  25 that's to take place.  26 Q   What are some of the different ways that your clan  27 would notify you while you were at Walcott?  28 A  Much like you've seen lately.  They are invited.  My  29 mother and my father were invited and then from there,  30 we go to Moricetown to the potlatch.  31 Q   Have -- you've mentioned earlier in your evidence that  32 yourself and your husband Gordon and your family have  33 lived in Walcott.  While you lived in Walcott with  34 your husband and your children, what would Gordon do  35 there?  36 A   Like I told you before, he brought all the -- his  37 sawmill down there and he took it out in the bush and  38 he was cutting lumber.  39 Q   And do you know whether Gordon selectively logged like  40 your father or did he take all of the trees?  41 A   They were -- they only took timber according to  42 forestry regulations, selective logging, and the  43 forestry used to visit them quite often to see that  44 they were taking timber according to regulations.  45 Q   Okay.  And do you know whether or not Gordon hired  46 anyone to help him there?  47 A   There's times when my husband was single.  He had 63  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 young friends.  They would work for him.  Joe Brown,  2 Johnny Wilson, Alfred Wilson.  And there's some boys  3 from Babine, and there's some from Moricetown, George,  4 Emma Michell's son, and there's also, referring to  5 your translator, your father, and your brother, Thomas  6 Holland, and there was one young fellow from Babine  7 that worked for him.  All of a sudden there was a  8 train coming.  One day he decided to go to the coast  9 fishing.  And I told him, "You have a good job here.  10 Why are you leaving now?"  "Oh", he said, "I've -- I'm  11 itching to go to the coast."  So he left and two weeks  12 later his body was on the train going by.  Somebody  13 had threw him over the cliff in Prince Rupert and he  14 got killed.  15 Q   This is one of the young men that had been looking for  16 Gordon?  17 A   He's working for Gordon.  18 Q   All these names of the -- of the people whom you've  19 just identified, are they all Wet'suwet'en people?  20 A  We also had some white boys working for us too and  21 there's Johnny Wilson and them.  When they were just  22 young men, they would work for us.  He's quite old now  23 and he was of Gitksan.  The rest were all  24 Wet'suwet'en.  25 Q   Do you know whether Gordon ever applied to the  26 government to get a permit to build a house at  27 Walcott?  Do you know whether Gordon ever applied to  28 the provincial government to get a permit to build a  29 house at Walcott?  30 A   He didn't apply to them.  He didn't bother with them.  31 He just bought property off people that were leaving  32 the area there.  He bought a house and property off  33 them.  34 MS. MANDELL:  Did he -- did he ever tell you, or did you discuss  35 why he would buy property there?  36 MR. PLANT:  Before the witness answers the question, I think I  37 better put on the record something that I'm sure Ms.  38 Mandell is well aware of, and that is the undertaking  39 that was discussed on one of the last days of trial  40 with respect to evidence given, hearsay evidence of  41 statements made by living persons, and as I  42 understand -- as I recall it, the Chief Justice, in  43 effect, made a ruling that he would allow certain  44 forms of otherwise objectionable evidence to be  45 tendered on the understanding or undertaking, in  46 effect, that the person actually making the statement  47 would later be called as a witness, and with respect 64  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 to this statement that we're now seeking and a lot of  2 other evidence that's been tendered over the last  3 three days, I'm assuming that we're proceeding on that  4 basis?  5 MS. MANDELL:  I don't intend to call Gordon for this point.  6 It's really a question with respect to her state of  7 mind.  She was -- she was one of those of the two  8 people, being part of a married couple, who is making  9 a decision to buy a house, and I'm questioning her  10 with respect to her state of mind and perhaps the  11 question could be framed differently then.  12 MR. PLANT:  Yes, because there's no evidence that she was any  13 part of a decision to buy a house.  The evidence was  14 that her husband bought a house.  So if you want to  15 ask of her state of mind, then I think we ought to lay  16 the groundwork for that, for the relevance of that.  17 MS. MANDELL:  18 Q   Did you and your husband decide to buy a house at  19 Walcott?  20 A   Yes.  We were also instructed by my parents to buy a  21 house because we didn't have a place to stay at the  22 time.  23 Q   And why did you choose to buy a house and not simply  24 to build one as your father had done?  25 A  We not only bought a house.  We bought property, 80  26 acres.  The person that we bought it from put the  27 price down for us at $5,000, and then we -- like I  28 stated before, we -- we left that property because of  2 9 family problems.  30 Q   Did you raise your children at Walcott?  31 A   Yes.  They all went to school across the river.  That  32 school is still there.  33 Q   And did you -- did you in recent years apply to the  34 government for land to build a house there?  35 A   I gave instruction to Andy from the Friendship Centre.  36 Q   Is that Andrew George?  37 A   Yes.  I instructed him to put in an application to  38 build a cabin out on the territory for us.  We tried  39 that without any success.  40 Q   Do you know what happened to your application?  Was it  41 approved?  42 A  When our application was approved and he went --  43 one-half mile back, he blazed about a half an acre  44 around where the cabin was to be built and after the  45 application was approved, we went down there to look  46 at that place where the cabin was to be built.  It was  47 all clear-cut.  There was not a tree that was seen 65  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 anywhere in the area nearby to build a log cabin with  2 and me and my husband went down there to look at it.  3 So when we came back, we figured there's no timber  4 there for logs to build a cabin, so I phoned -- I  5 phoned Andy and instructed him to cancel our  6 application and I believe they were asking for  7 somewhere around $200 for -- for that application and  8 it was just like buying property.  9 Q   Your husband has a -- has a chief's name; is that  10 right?  11 A   Yes.  Chief.  His name is Gyologyet.  12 Q   And Gyologyet -- with Gyologyet's name comes  13 territory?  14 A   Yes.  He has that territory out by Morris River.  15 Q   In -- I'm sorry.  In recent years would — have you  16 and your husband gone to his territory for berry  17 picking or other gathering of food?  18 A   No.  Not recently.  19 Q   Can you go for a little while longer?  20 A  Maybe just take a short break.  21 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  22 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  23 MS. MANDELL:  24 Q   Kweese, I want to take you to the Elwin Lake  25 territory.  Does Kweese own territory at Elwin Lake?  26 A   Yes.  They have territory there.  27 Q   And do you know whether any of the former Kweese in  28 your lifetime had a cabin built there?  29 A   There's former Kweese.  Mooseskin had a house there by  30 the big meadow.  It looked like it was a big house.  31 Looked almost like a smokehouse.  32 Q   And did you ever see a house that August Pete had  33 around that territory?  34 A   That is the place where we spent a whole winter with  35 them there while they went out on a territory.  36 Q   And are you -- have you been told that any of the  37 former Kweese would live in -- had lived in that  38 territory?  39 A   They -- they lived there long before that.  That is  40 why they had houses around there.  41 Q   And had you -- have you been told that Biinii had  42 lived in that territory?  43 A   They've always -- even before Biinii, they've always  44 lived there.  When -- when the holder passes on,  45 there's always nephews and brothers to take over as  46 successor.  47 Q   And do you recall who told you that -- that the -- 66  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 that there was always somebody living on this  2 territory as you've described?  3 A   The same person.  My grandmother also told us these  4 stories.  5 Q   That's Adele?  6 A   Yes.  That's her.  7 Q   Baas k'e?  8 A   Yes.  That's right.  9 Q   You said that when you were small, that you stayed at  10 August Pete's house.  Can you recall who was on the  11 territory at that time?  12 A  August was living in that territory at that time and  13 that is why he had bought property there.  14 Q   And when you stayed there, who else was on the  15 territory?  16 A   There's another big lake there, Nee tats'oo, so they  17 call it.  There was a white man living around there by  18 the name of Dan and there was another one by the name  19 of Shorty.  20 MS. MANDELL:  Shorty?  21 MR. PLANT:  Shorty?  22 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  23 THE WITNESS:  Lee Shorty.  We were driving around there last  24 year and the man's house is still there.  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Could I have the spelling of the big lake?  26 THE SPELLER:  Nee tats'oo, N-e-e-t-a-t-s-apostrophe-o-o.  27 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry?  28 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  N-e-e-t-a-t-s-apostrophe-o-o.  2 9 MS. MANDELL:  30 Q   Kweese, when you were there as a young -- as a young  31 person, were you staying with August Pete?  32 A   Yes.  That's where we stayed.  He didn't like staying  33 down there by himself, so he asked us to stay with  34 him.  That is why we stayed for a while.  35 Q   And were there other Wet'suwet'en who were staying  36 there too?  37 A   Just east of there, there was four brothers:  Michell,  38 Tom, Maxam Tom, Seymore Tom, Antoine Tom.  Four.  They  39 had -- there was a reserve down there for them by the  40 lake, and they had a road going in there.  We were  41 there just recently.  We drove around there and Rita  42 showed us all the different places.  There's a road in  43 there and it's just like a big highway in there now.  44 Q   When you stayed at that territory, were there  45 Wet'suwet'en who were camping in the -- in the field?  4 6 A  My grandmother spoke of the time when she was about 13  47 years old.  The road was a trail.  Used to go through 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  67  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  there at one time.  All of a sudden one day, there was  a man, a very strange sort of man came and his face  was overgrown with hair; came to their house and they  didn't understand what he was talking about and he had  some dried meat and smoked fish hanging up there and  he was pointing at that and they figured him out, what  he wanted.  So they took some smoked meat and salmon  down and they gave it to him.  He was really happy.  And he put it in his pack and then he continued on  walking westward.  I believe -- grandmother believes  that was the first time she ever seen a white man.  Did August Pete have cattle on that territory,  livestock, when you were there?  When we stayed there, August had a lot of cattle  there.  Some had calves and his wife used to milk his  cows, so we didn't travel around too much because we  had to look after the stock.  And where did the stock graze?  Like, he fed the cattle at the home place of the --  near the meadow, the field that I mentioned, the lake,  before.  That is where they -- it was a natural field  and when they go out there today, it's still like  that.  That is where they had -- they cut wild hay  also there.  When you say when you go out there today, when was the  most recent time that you went back into that  territory?  We went -- we went out there quite -- quite a few  times.  One time my husband wanted to go out there.  We went out there recently and the most recent was the  time when Andrew and his wife took us out there and  pointing at the -- at the -- Louise, they went out  there and one other woman with white hair went out  there with us.  That was the most recent time we went  out there.  That's Andrew George and his wife?  Yes.  Yes.  When you went out with your husband Gordon, was that  within the last few years?  It's about five years ago.  And do you recall why you went to the territory with  Gordon at that time?  He wanted to see -- they wanted to see the area and I  wanted to see it one more time.  And did you show Gordon any particular landmark in the  territory?  We spent -- I explain all the place names to him and F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 we spent a day out there and we had lunch at that  2 place, that field where I'm talking about where my  3 grandmother and them had a place.  I explain all that  4 to him, and all the hills, and see China Nose there,  5 just appeared just a little distance away.  6 Q   The four brothers that you mentioned, Michael, Maxam,  7 Seymore and Antoine Tom, were those brothers at Maxam  8 Lake?  9 A   Yes.  They're all brothers.  They had one mother and  10 one father.  11 Q   Had your -- when you were growing up, did your father,  12 to your knowledge, did he ever received a job nearby  13 that territory?  14 A  We -- we stayed with them there until about May and  15 then August took us by wagon down to an area by the  16 station where they had set up tent, a big tent, as big  17 as a house, but before we went there, my father went  18 down there and got a job on the section, and that is  19 where we camped there by -- in a big tent.  And he  20 worked on the section till snowfall in the fall time.  21 At that time when -- my father got a job on the  22 section and this white man also put Maxam Tom and his  23 brothers on the job also and then they all moved down  24 there.  They all had tents and then it looked like a  25 town there after that.  26 Q   When you say they all had tents, are you speaking  27 about the four brothers as well as your family?  28 A   They all had tents.  They all had two tents facing  29 each other and they had a fire between the two tents.  30 Us, we had a big tent and we had a stove outside.  31 MS. MANDELL:  I think those are the questions which I'll —  32 we'll finish with today, and we'll decide later today  33 how we'll arrange tomorrow.  34 THE INTERPRETER:  Is there going to be cross-examination?  35 MS. MANDELL:  Cross-examination will not be tomorrow.  We'll  36 start at another date that we set.  So there's still  37 more to do, but she won't be -- Florence, there won't  38 be any cross-examination starting tomorrow.  39 THE INTERPRETER:  Is there a little something to do tomorrow  40 morning?  41 MR. PLANT:  I understand we're adjourning now and that, Ms.  42 Mandell, you haven't yet finished all of your  43 questions in chief for the witness and that you also  44 have -- it's your intention to tender an affidavit as  45 proof of certain matters on this examination.  My  46 proposal would be that you complete your examination  47 in chief before we leave Smithers and with the 69  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 exception of the issue of the affidavit — that is to  2 say, if you tender it, then we'll have the objection  3 and we carry on from there, or, alternatively, that  4 you can confirm for me now what the subject-matters  5 are that you have not yet finished and just state what  6 it is that you wish to do with this affidavit.  I  7 don't want to leave it open ended.  8 MS. MANDELL:  I'll be glad to complete tomorrow.  It means  9 tomorrow that the request made by counsel for the  10 federal government that we leave Smithers at 11:30  11 can't be complied with, but I'd be very happy to stay  12 tomorrow and complete.  I'm prepared to do that.  13 MR. PLANT:  My concern is it's only twenty-five to four.  I'd be  14 prepared to sit now to complete the -- whatever the  15 other areas are or to resume at nine o'clock tomorrow  16 morning to complete the areas then.  17 MS. MANDELL:  Well, you've seen the witness for the last hour  18 and a half.  She's been on the go since nine o'clock  19 and she is tired.  And if you don't want to take my  20 word for it, you can ask her.  So I don't think that  21 there's any further benefit to us this afternoon in  22 pushing her further.  She's gone from nine o'clock all  23 through lunch and now all this afternoon, so she's not  24 in a position to finish -- to go further this  25 afternoon.  26 Now, as to starting tomorrow morning at nine  27 o'clock, we would be prepared to start tomorrow  28 morning at nine o'clock if the witness were able to  29 work this evening to complete the preparation in the  30 affidavit.  I don't know if she is.  I'm prepared to  31 call you this evening and advise you as to somehow how  32 she's feeling, but if she's not prepared to do that,  33 then we'll begin preparation tomorrow morning at nine  34 o'clock as usual and be prepared to start at 10:30 as  35 usual and go through the day.  36 MR. PLANT:  Why don't we start at ten?  37 MS. MANDELL:  Because the affidavit -- our preparation will not  38 be finished in an hour.  It took from -- from what we  39 did at lunch, it took the full lunch break, which was  40 two hours, to go through half of the affidavit.  We've  41 still got another half of the affidavit to go.  So  42 there's -- I don't believe that there'd be any benefit  43 to any of us having this commission resume at ten when  44 we won't finish the preparation in time for that if  45 she is unable to work this evening.  46 MR. PLANT:  Are you able to say now what the other areas of  47 examination are that you -- that basically remain 70  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 outstanding?  2 MS. MANDELL:  There's some further questions with respect to  3 some of the territories, nothing which hasn't already  4 been given notice of in the summary.  It's with  5 respect to the same territories which we've been  6 talking about thus far.  Some of those questions will  7 arise from the affidavit and others will be pick-up  8 questions from the last few days, and there will be  9 some questions respecting the interrogatory and  10 clarifying matters where there's points different now  11 in her evidence to what was first given on the  12 interrogatory, and there'll be a few questions,  13 basically pick-up questions with respect to the other  14 areas of which notice has been given in the summary.  15 We won't be getting into the area of the Kalullem.  16 That's an area which I gave you notice of in the  17 summary that we're not going to canvass it.  18 MR. PLANT:  With this witness?  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Is that the word spelled K-a-1-u-l-l-e-m, and  20 the pronunciation is --  21 MS. MANDELL:  George is going to laugh at me.  22 THE INTERPRETER  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG  24 THE INTERPRETER  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG  What?  How do you say that, George?  Kaulullem.  It's beginning to sound very much like  26 something on the Kibbutz.  27 MR. PLANT:  All right.  It would be great if we could finish  28 these other areas in the 20 minutes or so before four  29 o'clock, but if you say that's not possible, then it's  30 not possible and we'll -- I'll look forward to hearing  31 from you this evening whether we can start at nine  32 tomorrow or not.  33 MS. MANDELL:  Well, let me understand your position.  If we  34 can't begin except tomorrow, that is if tomorrow --  35 if -- if we are to begin tomorrow and I'm not able to  36 prepare this evening, then it's our suggestion that we  37 either start at 10:30 as usual and go the day or,  38 alternatively, that we adjourn the commission at this  39 stage or as soon as we know whether or not we can  40 prepare this evening, we will deliver to you the  41 affidavit, which we will finish tomorrow morning, and  42 when the commission is resumed at a later date, then  43 we'll pick up the questions which we still have  44 remaining on the direct.  45 MR. PLANT:  Well, my preference is to finish the direct tomorrow  4 6 if we can.  47 MS. MANDELL:  That's fine.  That would be ours too then. 71  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  That's fine then.  2  3   (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL OCTOBER 16, 1987 AT 10:30 A.M.)  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 72  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 October 16, 1987  2 Smithers, B.C.  3  4 MS. MANDELL:  This is the recommencement of the commission  5 evidence of Florence Hall, and it's the 16th day of  6 October.  Our translator, George Holland, suffered a  7 death in his family the day before yesterday and he is  8 not able to be here today and he's attending to the  9 details of the death and he's also suffering with his  10 own grief.  As a result of that, it's going to be our  11 proposal that the commission of Florence Hall, the  12 direct evidence not be completed this morning.  There  13 are several other questions, not many, yet still to be  14 asked and also the tendering of an affidavit.  The  15 affidavit has been sworn today by Florence Hall and  16 with the assistance of our speller, Ron Michell, who  17 although is fluent in Wet'suwet'en and English is not  18 trained as a translator, and he has assisted us in  19 completing the translation of the affidavit,  20 although -- and he will also assist us in translating  21 this morning to the best of his ability in tendering  22 this affidavit, although he's not in a position to  23 translate the remainder of the direct evidence.  So  24 our proposal is that we put in the affidavit this  25 morning and then adjourn and we'll resume the  26 commission at another date to be set.  27 MR. PLANT:  Ms. Mandell, I'd be prepared to consent to marking  28 the affidavit as an exhibit for identification without  29 any need for examination of the witness.  30 MS. MANDELL:  Well, I propose to have her identify the — the  31 affidavit and mark it as an exhibit in the proceedings  32 and further questions on cross-examination or on  33 direct can be directed to her at a later date.  34 MR. PLANT:  Well, then why don't you proceed to do that first?  35 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you.  Perhaps we should swear in yourself to  36 assist us as a translator at this stage.  37 RON MICHELL, The Interpreter:  Sworn  38 MS. MANDELL:  39 Q   Florence, I'm showing to you an affidavit which has  40 your signature on the last page and I'm asking you to  41 identify whether or not that is your signature?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And did you have this affidavit translated for you,  44 the sections on Burnie Lake and on the trail, by  45 George Holland?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And did you have the -- the sections dealing with 73  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Elwin Lake translated to you by Ron Michell?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And is the affidavit and what's contained in it true  4 to the best of your knowledge and -- and your ability?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And that affidavit was sworn this morning; is that  7 correct?  8 A   Yes.  9 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  I'd like to have that affidavit then marked  10 as an exhibit, the next exhibit in the proceedings.  11 MR. PLANT:  Before that's done, I should say that I repeat what  12 I said earlier.  I would consent to marking the  13 affidavit as an exhibit for identification only at  14 this time.  And perhaps I should also say the  15 following:  That on September 8th appointments made up  16 for an application to take Mrs. Hall's evidence by  17 commission.  At that time there was no suggestion made  18 that any part of her evidence would be tendered by way  19 of affidavit.  The first suggestion in that regard was  2 0 made on Wednesday morning prior to the commencement of  21 the second day of this commission.  Only now has the  22 affidavit been produced to us to permit us to see it  23 for the first time.  24 I might state that my understanding of the purpose  25 of commission evidence is to preserve the evidence of  26 a witness who is unable to testify at trial.  The idea  27 of tendering evidence by way of affidavit is a much  28 different procedure and while it has been proposed by  29 your colleagues, Ms. Mandell, in the most general of  30 terms, the procedure obviously requires leave of court  31 and that court leave has neither been sought nor  32 granted to date, nor have we had any opportunity to  33 make any submissions on the question of whether  34 affidavit evidence is appropriate.  I say it is quite  35 inappropriate to attempt to mix procedures because,  36 among other things, it will probably be our proposal  37 that the cross-examination of witnesses on affidavits  38 be conducted in open court rather than in this form.  39 I am unaware of any rule of evidence or procedure  40 which would permit you, Ms. Mandell, to tender this  41 affidavit as an exhibit at this stage and if you are  42 aware of such a rule of evidence or procedure, I would  43 be grateful for your advice to me of it.  That's my  44 position on the affidavit.  45 MS. MANDELL:  Only to say one — one additional point.  That  46 when the summary of this witness' evidence was  47 tendered to the other side as requested, it was stated 74  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 that part of what this commission would cover would  2 include the subjects of the territories, the  3 boundaries and the neighbours of the -- of the  4 territories belonging to Kweese, all of which material  5 now has been set forth in the affidavit.  The  6 affidavit is being used in this -- in this proceeding  7 to facilitate the very long and tedious and  8 time-consuming problem of having the witness repeat  9 the Wet'suwet'en place names and the boundaries and  10 the territorial descriptions in -- in oral evidence  11 and the -- there is no surprise on the part of -- on  12 the part of my friends as to the fact that the  13 contents of the affidavit would be the subject of  14 these proceedings and I wish to state at this time  15 that the affidavit is tendered as a matter of  16 convenience to all parties and that's its purpose and  17 the reason why it's being put in at this time and in  18 this way.  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Perhaps I should simply say that at this point  20 our position on behalf of the Attorney-general of  21 Canada is that we can't consent until we've had an  22 opportunity to review the affidavit and when we've had  23 an opportunity to review it, we will then give you our  24 position as to whether it should go in as an exhibit  25 and how we should cross-examine.  26 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  Are you proposing to adjourn now?  27 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  28 MR. PLANT:  All right.  Well, I do have a couple of comments on  29 that subject too.  First, I should say I am consenting  30 to your request for an adjournment on the basis that  31 the subject-matter -- subject-matters that remain  32 outstanding in respect of this witness are those that  33 we stated yesterday and the subject-matter of  34 territories which will be resolved in some way or  35 another by this affidavit and what follows.  36 I also wanted to indicate my concern with a number  37 of other aspects of this commission.  My notes  38 indicate that on Tuesday we obtained an hour and forty  39 minutes of evidence, on Wednesday three and  40 one-quarter hours of evidence.  Yesterday we obtained  41 three hours of evidence, and, of course, we are unable  42 to obtain any evidence today.  My concern is that with  43 the expense and inconvenience of travel to Smithers,  44 that better use can be made of our time.  45 Among other things, I have concern about the  46 appropriateness of devoting any part of the ordinary  47 court day to preparation.  I say that's an unfair 75  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 imposition on other counsel, especially when a special  2 trip has been made to Smithers to obtain this  3 evidence, and I am concerned about the expenditure of  4 time in light of the many concerns that have been  5 expressed in this case about expense and cost.  6 A second concern I have is with the estimate of  7 time that has been given from time to time for the  8 completion of the direct examination of this witness.  9 By my calculations, this is now the 13th witness who  10 has given evidence for the plaintiffs in this  11 proceeding and I would think that it might be possible  12 to make a reasonable estimate of the time required for  13 examination in chief.  On Tuesday, Ms. Mandell, you  14 indicated that you'd be finished by Thursday morning  15 and it was on that basis that I raised no objection to  16 your suggestion of truncating the hours of ordinary  17 examination time.  Of course, at that point you had  18 not told us about your proposal to tender any of the  19 evidence of this witness by affidavit.  Before we  20 started yesterday, you indicated that you would take  21 approximately 45 minutes in examination in chief and,  22 of course, we took all day yesterday and you were not  23 finished yesterday yet.  A concern that again we as  24 counsel for the Province, at any rate, deserve  25 something better.  26 The third and perhaps most important concern is  27 that many of the questions asked of this witness up  28 till this point have been demonstrably objectionable,  29 usually on the grounds of ordinary hearsay rules, and  30 in other cases I am concerned that many of the areas  31 of examination have been so marginally relevant as to  32 be of little use in proving the plaintiff's case.  33 This suggests to me that there must be a more  34 efficient way of obtaining this evidence, and I should  35 tell you that one idea that we have in mind, or that I  36 have in mind at the moment is to request the presence  37 of a commissioner to rule on objections during the  38 course of an examination.  39 MS. MANDELL:  Well, if I could reply, the reason that there was  40 one hour of evidence, as you put it, on the first day  41 was because counsel for the Province and the Federal  42 Government were travelling in the morning to Smithers  43 to be here and that the commission was set in the  44 afternoon in order to allow for the travel time.  45 Plaintiff's counsel were here earlier than that and we  46 could have begun at an hour earlier than the afternoon  47 if we hadn't accommodated for your travel time to come 76  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 up during that morning.  2 I might also mention that three and a half hours  3 the second day and three hours the third day are  4 really a full amount of time when we're dealing with a  5 witness who's 76 years old and who herself has been  6 struggling, in my opinion, throughout quite a bit of  7 this evidence in order to be available for questions  8 and to be alert.  If we were dealing with a much  9 younger witness, then I would say we should do  10 everything possible to live within the rules of normal  11 court hours, but we're not.  We're dealing with a  12 woman who's 76 years old and yesterday, I think you'll  13 quite agree with me that she was visibly tired and  14 pushing herself throughout the entire afternoon.  15 It's not possible today to judge that there has  16 been a waste of time when the death of somebody, the  17 translator, was in his family, something which was --  18 something that was completely unanticipated and  19 something for which there deserves punitive style  2 0 comments put on the record.  So in my -- in my  21 opinion, there's been an efficient use of the week to  22 the extent that it's possible.  23 One of the purposes of taking commission evidence  24 with older people is that they can't necessarily stand  25 the riggers of the normal court proceedings and that's  26 exactly what went on, and I really take offence with  27 the suggestion made by Province's counsel that there's  28 something -- something which was done in this  29 commission which so inconvenienced Province's counsel  30 that comments ought to have been made on the record  31 and something ought to be done now to rectify a wrong.  32 With respect to whether or not there ought to be  33 somebody here to deal with the question of making  34 rulings on the spot, I think it's perfectly clear that  35 throughout the course of the commission and probably  36 throughout the course of the evidence generally,  37 there's going to be a difference of view between  38 counsel as to what's relevant and what evidence is  39 admissible.  I thought that is something which was  40 understood between all of us that objections with  41 respect to that can be taken at trial when it's the  42 appropriate time and there's somebody there to mediate  43 it.  If it's your view that there should be somebody  44 in addition here during the commission, then bring on  45 your application in the normal course of events and  46 we'll see what can be done.  But I think it's an  47 unnecessary comment for the record at this point; that 77  F. Hall (for plaintiff)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 there's differences between counsel as to the  2 relevancy of certain pieces of information.  The  3 ultimate test of that is going to be placed in the  4 hands of the trial judge, in any event.  5 MR. PLANT:  Ms. Mandell, I think I better reply to one or two of  6 those comments.  First, your statements with respect  7 to travel time are inaccurate in relation to the  8 correspondence.  You'll recall that I wrote you a  9 letter requesting that we start on Tuesday and  10 indicating that I would be pleased to meet the  11 convenience of counsel in respect of airplane  12 schedules but would do so in the expectation that we  13 would get a full day's hearing on Tuesday, in any  14 event.  15 MS. MANDELL:  That doesn't reveal itself in the correspondence,  16 that you expected to get a full day's hearing on  17 Tuesday, and I -- I hope you stand corrected on that.  18 MR. PLANT:  The letter will speak for itself and if I'm wrong,  19 I'm wrong.  The -- nothing of what I said was intended  20 to suggest that Mrs. Hall did not find the experience  21 of being examined here stressful and tiring.  It may  22 be that a more efficient way of proceeding would be to  23 have the examination of two witnesses ongoing and one  24 in the morning and one in the afternoon and that would  25 be, I would think, of assistance to the plaintiffs and  26 it would even lessen the burden on the elderly  27 witnesses.  28  2 9 (ADJOURNED ACCORDINGLY)  30  31  32 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  33 a true and accurate transcript of the  34 proceedings transcribed to the best  35 of my skill and ability.  36  37  38  39 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  4 0 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  41  42  43  44


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