Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Jessie Sterritt Vol. 2] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 21, 1986

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 54  STERRITT,  J.,  In Chief,  Mr. Rush  VIOLET SMITH,  Gitksan Interpreter,  Previously Sworn.  JESSIE STERRITT, a Witness  called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs,Previously Sworn,  testifies as follows:    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    UPON COMMENCING AT 10.00 a.m. , 21 JANUARY, 1986  MR. RUSH:  This is the re-commencement of the Commission  Evidence of 'Wiigoob'l, Jessie Sterritt, and today is  January 21st, 1986.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH  (contd)  Q    The last time that we were together, Jessie, I asked you  some questions about the regalia of the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o, and I wanted to ask you in this vein,  along this line of questioning whether or not there is  an amhalayt that belongs to the House of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes, there's one.  Q    Where is the amhalayt today?  A    It is in the Hazelton museum.  Q    Is there anything on the face of the amhalayt that is  distinctive or particular to the House of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    The  prominent figure on that is the eye, and that is  recognised  as Gyedimgaldo'o's.  Q    Now, are there also blankets that belong to the House  of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    There is a button blanket.  Q    What is that button blanket like?  A    It's very similar to the ones that are prominent,  it's  black and red trimming.  Q    What is the Gitksan name for button blanket?  A    Gwissgan'mala  Q    Gwissgan'mala. Now, the button blanket that you have  described,  who does that belong to?  A    It's the house blanket that is pased on.  Q    I want to show you a photocopy of four photographs  of a woman modelling a button blanket, and I just want  to ask you, is that the button blanket that you have  just referred to?  A    No, it's not the same.  This button blanket belongs to  Biiniks. It's called Gwiisgaduuhl, not Gwissgan'mala. 55  STERRITT,  J.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q     I wonder if you can just turn the photocopy towards the  camera, and show the camera? This blanket that is  shown in these four photographs belongs to Biiniks?  A     Yes.  Q     Where is this blanket located, do you know?  A     It is also in the Hazelton museum.  Q     The other button blanket that belongs to Gyedimgaldo'o,  is that located in the museum as well?  A     Yes.  MR. RUSH: I see. May I take that back from you?  Now, Mr. Plant, I wonder, I would like to have this  entered as an exhibit with the understanding that I  will produce the photographs -- if there are coloured  photographs -- and I'll make those available to you.  For the purposes of this Commission I will have this  marked as the next exhibit, if I may? Could we do that  plese?   EXHIBIT No. 6 - One page photocopy document of  four photographs of woman  modelling button blanket.  MR. RUSH: Just had to take a few minutes to have that photocopy marked as an exhibit.  Q    Let me ask you now, Jessie, is there a rattle that  belong to the House of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    There is one but it is not in our possession.  Q    Whose possession is it in today?  A    Sara Marshall.  Q    All right. Who gave the rattle to Sara Marshall?  A    The rattle was given to Sara Marshall's father to look  after.  Q    And it was given by whom?  A    It was given to him just to look after, it wasn't given  to him to possess.  Q    Okay.  A    Tommy died -- when her father died, Sara just took the  rattle and never gave it to us, to the house.  Q    Are you saying that this rattle properly belongs to the  House of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes.  Q    I see. Now, I want to ask you if there are any -- I  want to move away from the regalia now and ask you, is  there a separate pole for Xskiigimlaxha?  THE INTERPRETER:  Not that she knows of.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Is there any separate regalia for Xskiigimlaxha? 56  STERRITT,  J.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A     The picture that you just showed us, that blanket  belongs to Xskiigimlaxha and Biiniks. They were  brothers.  Q     This is the one that I just showed you a moment ago?  A     Yes.  Q     Thank you. Now, are the crests of Xskiigimlaxha, are  they the same or different to those of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A     They are the same because the headstone of Biiniks up  in the graveyard, the figures are the same as the pole  down by the library.  Q     I see. Now, earlier, when we last had our Commission,  you told us about some songs and I think you indicated  that there was a song which was sung at a feast when  you received your name. I understand the Gitksan name  for song is limx'ooy?  A     Yes.  Q     Now, when you received the name of 'Wiigoob'l was  there a limx'ooy sung at that feast?  A     No, it's not really important that it is sung at that  feast if there is no one there that knows the song.  Q     But is there a breath song for the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o  A     Yes, there's one.  Q     Has this song been recorded to your memory?  A     A few years ago when the -- Mr. Pearkes,  the Governor  General -- the Lieutenant-Governor -- came here, there  was a celebration up at the ball park and the song was  sung by Thomas Wright and   THE INTERPRETER:  She believes it was recorded and it's in  the possession of Polly Sargent.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q     Now, is Thomas Wright a member of the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A     No.  Q     But he knew the song, did  he?  A     Yes. He and his brother,  Simon, knew the song.  Q     Now, do you recall the last time we had the Commission  you told us about how the feast had been banned for a  period of time?  A     Yes.  Q     I can't recall if I asked you whether or not the ban  was enforced on the reserve. Was there some government  agency or somebody that enforced that ban?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN 57  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  THE INTERPRETER: From what she can remember, she remembered  the elders talked about it but she really can't say for  sure but the law was here, their names, but they were  the ones that -- I assume it will be the police.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes, it will be the police.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Now, during that period were white people allowed to go  to the reserve?  THE INTERPRETER:   She doesn't know.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    The question that I just asked you, Jessie, my question  was, were white people allowed to go to the reserve  during the time that the ban on the feast was in place:     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  No, just law people that were connected with  the law.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  She would like to clarify that it wasn't  the people of the reserve, it was the white people's  law that banned white people from the reserve.  MR. RUSH:.  All right.  Q When the feast was banned and you still held the feast,  as I remember your saying, why did you continue to hold  the feast even though it was banned?  A It is very important in our own laws that we have them  when somebody dies, there has to be a finish, to finish  his life, to put it in place or put it right. The feast  is very important and it has to take place even today.  Q    Now, I forgot to ask you, I am going to jump back just  for a moment to ask you about the tape of the limx ' ooy  that Polly Sargent has; have you asked Mrs. Sargent for  the tape?  A    My daughter, Martha, asked her about it but she would  not release it.  Q    Do you intend to pursue this with Mrs. Sargent?  A    We'll have to ask her for it when we need it. Because I 58  STERRITT,  J.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  believe she really has no right to it.  Q     I want to change subjects now and ask you about the  territory of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o, and the  territory of the House of 'Wiigoob'l. Now, first, I  would like to ask you about fishing sites: are there  fishing sites which 'Wiigoob'l has at the present  time?  A     There are two fishing sites up in the canyon, Hagwilget  Canyon. There is one on the other side and one on this  side of the canyon   (In English) No, the same side.  The one on the other side of the canyon belongs  to Gyedimgaldo'o and the one on this side belongs to  'Wiigoob'1.  Q     Which side of the canyon -- the Hagwilget Canyon is  'Wiigoob'l's fishing site on?  A     On this side.  Q     That is on the side closest to Gitanmaax, is that  correct, Jessie?  A     Yes.  Q     Do you know the fishing sites that belong to  'Wiigoob'l?  A     The one on this side is called Anyuusxw  'Wiigoob'l.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  The Anyuusxw for 'Wiigoob'l is on this side and  is where they dip the net -- is quite deep and they use  the dip net.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q     And the Gitksan name for the fishing site is?  A     Anyuusxw 'Wi igoob'1.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  We refer to it as where 'Wiigoob'l would fish  or where Gyedimgaldo'o would fish.  MR. RUSH:   Yes.  THE WITNESS:  That's the general term.  BY MR . RUSH:  Q     That is the site that you have described on this side  of the Hagwilget Canyon, that is where 'Wiigoob'l  would fish?  A     Yes.  Q     How many sites are there that belong to the House of  Wiigoob'1?  A     There is just two up at the canyon. 59  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   All right. Do you remember the names of those two  sites?  A   The one on this side is called Anyuusxw 'Wiigoob'l.  MR. RUSH:  All right.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  When they refer to the fishing places there are  really two that belong to 'Wiigoob'l.  There are two  spots where they fish, one is where they use the dip net  and the other one is where they use just the ordinary  net, so there are really two spots that 'Wiigoob'l owns  on this side of the canyon.  Q   You have told us that on the other side of the canyon  there are fishing spots belonging to the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o,  is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   How many fishing spots are there on the other side of  the canyon that belong to Gyedimgaldo'o?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: They just have the one fishing spot where they  fish different ways, one for gaffing and the net. Fish  trap.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Now, can you tell us how long these fishing sites have  been in the Houses of 'Wiigoob'l and Gyedimgaldo'o?  THE INTERPRETER:   As far as she knows they've always had it.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Are the fishing sites used today?  A   No, they haven't been in use.  Q   Why is that?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  When the bridge was built they changed the way  the salmon came, they blew out a rock there and ever  since then there has been no fishing.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Since that rock was blown out did members of your house  go to another fishing spot to fish?  A   Gyedimgaldo'o has a fishing site at Gwinxsigiibiltxw, at  Mission Creek. 60  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   What is the Gitksan name for Mission Creek?  A   Gwinxsigiibiltxw.  MR. RUSH:  Gwinxsigiibiltxw.  THE INTERPRETER: She cannot give you the English translation.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   But the fishing site that is known in Gitksan as  Gwinxsigiibiltxw, this is close to Mission Creek? Is it  at Mission Creek?  A   It is where Mission Creek runs into the Bulkley, that is  where the fishing site is.  Q   All right, that fishing site is where Mission Creek  meets the Bulkley River, is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   Now,  I'm going to ask you a little bit about that  fishing site in just a moment but what I would like to  ask you now, before the rock was blasted at Hagwilget  Canyon, how did the people fish there? When they fished  at the sites, the old sites of 'Wiigoob'l and  Gyedimgaldo'o,  what did the people do there?  A   They gaffed it in the canyon.  They had the fish trap  there. When the sockeye season arrives and the river is  a little bit low that is when they used the fish traps.  Q   All right. Was the fish prepared at the site after they  had been pulled from the river?  A   Yes, they prepared it there.  There are many smoke  houses there.  Q   Was there anything else there? Any other structures or  was there anything else apart from the smoke house?  A   There were totem poles there.  Some of the poles  belonged to the people of Hagwilget.  They also had  smoke houses there, the people of Hagwilget.  Q   Now, you have said that you fish at this other site  today, that there is fishing at another place, and you  said that that is at the Bulkley and Mission Creek,  where the two rivers meet; at this fishing spot today  who fishes there from your house?  A   My grandchild, Val. They fished there last summer.  Q   Now,  I don't expect that you fish down there any more,  do you, Jessie?  A   No.  Q   But where does your fish come from?  A   My people give me fish, all the fish I need.  Q   Is that the custom among your family and your house?  A   The house -- salmon is shared among all the house  members.  Q   Now,  if I wanted to go down and fish at your fishing 61  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  site, could I do it without permission of the house?  A    No, you can't, you have to ask permission from the  people of the house.  Q    Is this true for all other people who are not members  of your house as well? Is it true that they must  obtain permission from the chief or the house members?  A    Yes, they have to ask permission from the head of the  house. There is trouble if they don't.  Q    Now, when you first got your name of 'Wiigoob'l and  when Gyedimgaldo'o received his name, did someone  speak about the territory that belongs to the house  at the time that you received the name?  A    Yes, it is so at the feast when the person inherits  the name it is announced at the feast the different  territories, the different fishing sites that go with  the name that he is responsible for.  Q    Now, who spoke of the territory at your feast when you  received the name 'Wiigoob'l?  THE INTERPRETER: He is deceased now, James White spoke when  she got her name.  THE WITNESS: It was James White who also put the name on me.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Was James White Gyedimgaldo'o:  A    Yes, he was.  At the particular time 'Wiigoob'l and  James White were brothers.  Q    Now, I want to ask you about the territory, the  hunting and trapping territory that belongs to the  House of Gyedimgaldo'o; can you tell me what is the  trapping and hunting territory of Gyedimgaldo'o?  THE INTERPRETER:  You mean the location?  MR.  RUSH:  Yes.  Q    Or the name of it and the area where it is?  A    There is one on the way to Babine called Ansumlaan.  Q    Ansumlaan. Do you know are there any lakes or names  of mountains that you know in the area on the way to  Babine?  THE INTERPRETER:  She can't remember right now but it's not  a very big place, it is just one man usually works it.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Is there any other territory that belongs to the House  of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    There is one close to Glen Vowell that Gyedimgaldo'o  uses.  Q    Does that have a name?  A    There's a mountain called Andamtwx. 62  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  THE INTERPRETER: She can' t remember the name of the other  one.  THE WITNESS:  It is just across the river here.  Today the  area is all logged off.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Now, is there a territory that belongs to the House of  'Wiigoob'l?  A    'Wiigoob'l has territory in the area of the Nass River.  THE INTERPRETER:  She's kind of forgotten the name of it but  she thinks it is Xsiluugaliiksaxwt.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Who used to go there? Who used to use that territory?  A   Albert Brown, who was 'Wiigoob'l at the time, used it.  After Brown died his son Jonathan used it.  Q   Jonathan Brown?  A   After Jonathan died it really wasn't in use.  THE INTERPRETER:  She's not aware that anybody goes there now.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   You talked about some territory that was in the Awiijii  and Bowser Lake area before?  A   Yes.  Q   Is this part of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o, this  territory?  A   We all use the same territory, Biiniks, Gyedimgaldo'o.  Q   And 'Wi igoob'1?  A    'Wi igoob'1.  Q   Now, the territory that was around Awiijii,  is that the  territory that Albert and Jonathan Brown used, or who  used that territory?  A   No, not in the area, in the one in the area of the Nass.  Q   I see.  The territory in the area of the Nass was used  by Albert Brown and Jonathan Brown?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, the territory in the Awiijii and Bowser Lake area,  who used that territory?  A   Johnny Wilson is using it.  MR. PLANT:  Who?  THE INTERPRETER:  Johnny Wilson.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Does Johnny Wilson use that territory today?  A   Yes.  Q   Is there a trap line on that territory?  A   Yes, there is a trap there, it's being logged off too. 63  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q    I'm just going to come back to the logging, I'll come  to that in a moment, but the territory that is being  used today by Johnny Wilson, who used it when you were  younger?  A    It was used by Dan Skawil, who was Biiniks at the time,  and Peter Morrison. Peter Morrison is my cousin.  And  my daughter, Martha, also used it along with her  husband, George Brown.  George is now deceased.  Q    On the previous time that we had the Commission Evidence  you talked about Xsiisxw or peace settlement; is  this territory that was part of the peace settlement?  A    Yes, the territory that is part of the settlement.  Q Now, all the territories that you have mentioned, and I  think there are three territories if I understand your  evidence. There is the territory at the Babine, which  is -- help me with the name again? The Gitksan name?  A    Ansumlaan.  Q    What river is that close to?  A    I can't think of the name of the river that is close to  that.  MR. RUSH: Do you mind if I lead her on this?  MR.  PLANT:  I don' t mind that.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Is it close to the Suskwa or Bear River?  A    It is not the Suskwa but it's close by there.  Q    Yes, I know what she's talking about. Does the name  Harold Price River, could that be the river?  THE INTERPRETER:  She can't say.  MR. RUSH: That's fine.  Q    Then there was the territory that Albert and Jonathan  Brown used in the Nass area, and I just wanted to ask  you if there is a mountain near that territory that was  called Skawil?  THE INTERPRETER:  She knows that there is a creek called  Skawil.  Skawil Creek there.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Then there is the territory that was part of the peace  settlement that you have talked about that Peter  Morrison, Martha Brown and George Brown used? That's  the three properties or territory that you're talking  about?  A    All part of it, yes. It is all part of the territory.  Q These territories are under the House of Gyedimgaldo'o,  are they?  A    Yes, also Xskiigimlaxha and Biiniks within the house. 64  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  MR.  PLANT:  I'm sorry?  MR. RUSH: She said representatives of the house are  Xskiigimlaxha and Biiniks and they're under the house.  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, along with Gyedimgaldo'o.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Jessie, are you authorized to speak about the  territories of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes, because I am the oldest of the house I have the  authority to speak.  Q    How old is the present Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    I'm not sure how old Sylvester is.  Q    He is much younger than you, is he?  A    Yes, very much.  Q    Now, I wanted you to tell me about the territory by  Seeley Lake; was there a territory used by the House of  'Wiigoob'l by Seeley Lake?  A    The lake that is known as Seeley Lake now was referred  to as 'Wiigoob'l's lake.  Q    Did you go to 'Wiigoob'l's lake as a young person?  A    I used to go there with Sam Hope's father along with his  daughter, Jenny, in the spring time.  Q    What did you do there?  A    He used to set the net in the area, the fish trap,  between the area -- there's a small lake there and a big  lake and he would fish in between the two.  Q    Did he use a fish trap?  A    Yes.  Q    All right. Can you tell us how would he catch fish with  the fish trap?  A    The fish trap is in a barrel shape and they used tree  roots.  Q    How would the fish come to be in the fish trap?  How  would they be forced into it?  A    There is a stream that runs from the big lake to the  little lake and there is where they would set the fish  trap, in between the two lakes.  MR. RUSH:  Was there more?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE  WITNESS:  The fish trap would be set between the two lakes  in the stream there and the small fishes In the spring,  the trout, all fair size, would come into the trap.  They would float into the trap.  BY  MR. RUSH:  Q    And be caught that way? 65  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A    Yes.  Q    Did you ever catch anything else other than fish in the  fish trap?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  There were times when animals would get in  there, like muskrat.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Now, you talked about fishing with the use of a fish  trap at 'Wiigoob'l lake in the spring; did you fish in  the fall as well as 'Wiigoob'l lake?  A    In the small lake they would fish for coho in the fall.  MR.  RUSH:  Yes.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  There was a smoke house on the edge of the small  lake.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Was this known as -- whose territory was this know as  where you fished?  A     'Wi igoob'1.  Q    All right.  Now, what happened to that territory?  Can  you tell us what happened in this century with regard to  'Wiigoob'l's territory?  A    When the railroad was built in 1912 that was where they  met in this area, one from the east and one from the  south.  At that time there was a station agent at South  Hazelton and we heard that he had registered the area.  His name was Mr. Gow.  Q    Did you give him or to your knowledge did anyone from  the House of 'Wiigoob'l give him permission to register  this area?  A    No.  They just took it. They named it Seeley Lake.  Q    Was this territory of 'Wiigoob'l Lake, was this known  to belong to the House of 'Wiigoob'l?  A    It was known by everyone in the area that this was  'Wiigoob'l's territory and nobody went there unless he  gave him permission.  Q    Okay.  A    In the fall they lived there, all the people, Biiniks  and Gyedimgaldo'o, they lived there in the fall while  they fished. They also --in the fall they also set  traps at the foot of the mountain. 66/67  STERRITT,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  A  Q  Was there a trap line there as well?  Yes, that is where he trapped,  'Wiigoob'l.  Now, do you know how did 'Wiigoob'l find out that Mr.  Gow had registered 'Wiigoob'l Lake and renamed it Seeley  Lake? When did you find out?  A   I can't recall, I was very young at the time, I don't  remember how he found out. But they talked about how  the white man had taken his lake.  Q   To your knowledge, Jessie, did anyone in the House of  'Wiigoob'l or in the House of Gyedimgaldo'o give  permission to Mr. Gow or anyone else to register or take  this territory?  A   No.  THE INTERPRETER: She had a picture of that, where they went  to school, and she forgot to bring it.  MR. RUSH:  Q   When you say went to school, when she was    THE INTERPRETER:  Young.  MR. RUSH:  Young. In Hazelton?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes. School was just in a little log cabin.  MR. RUSH:   I see.  Q   Now, in the House of Gyedimgaldo'o who has the power to  make decisions for the house?  A   The members of the house would discuss it and then they  would make a decision.  Q   What does the chief do in that role? What does he do  when the members of the house discuss it?  A   When they would come to a decision the whole house, then  it was the chief who would make the announcement or  whatever had to be done.  Q   Was this true of the House of 'Wiigoob'l as well?  A   Yes, they all do the same.  Q   Now, if a non-Gitksan person wanted to use the territory  or the resources of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o, what  would he have to do?  THE INTERPRETER: She doesn't recall ever having to deal with  that.  MR.  RUSH:  Okay.  THE Witness: In those days, I don't remember mixing the way  of the white culture or the Indians.  MR. RUSH:  All right.  Q   Now,  I just want to ask you about some of the resources  or animals or fish that were taken from the territory.  Can you tell us how did the members of Gyedimgaldo'o use  the territory?  A   They trapped.  They used fishing sites.  The picked  berries there.  And the trapping and the hunting. 68  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q    Let me ask you, what animals were trapped on the  territories of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Are you referring to Ansumlaan?  Q    Yes, let's begin with Ansumlaan?  A    They trapped marten.  Whatever animals are on the  territory they trapped.  Q    Do you know what they trapped up around Awiijii and  Bowser Lake?  A    Awiijii is very rich country and had lots of animals on  it.  Q    What animals were there, do you    A    Moose. Deer. Bear.  There was a lot of bear there.  The fishing is good there and there were lots of berries  to pick.  Q    Now, the moose and the deer and the bear were hunted by  members of the house, were they?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, in terms of trapping were there other furs trapped  there? Was beaver trapped in Awiijii?  A    Beaver and marten. And the many other animals that are  on the territory.  Q    At 'Wiigoob'l Lake, what was trapped at 'Wiigoob'l  Lake:  You mentioned there was trapping there?  A    They trapped marten and weasels.  THE INTERPRETER:  She can't remember the names of the other  animals they trapped there.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    When the animals were trapped were the furs traded?  A    They sold their traps, their skins at the Hudson's Bay  Store.  R.S. Sargeant also bought furs.  Q    R.s. Sargeant bought furs?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Can you tell me in your memory what did the people get  for the furs when they were trapped?  THE INTERPRETER:  From what she can recall it, compared to  today's prices, it really wasn't, they really didn't get  very much for it.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Did they get money for the furs or did they trade other  things?  THE INTERPRETER:  In her time she remembered that money was  used but she was told that a long time ago they would  pile the fur up and put a rifle against and they would 69  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  get a rifle for that pile of fur.  Q    They would measure the length of the rifle against the  pile of fur?  A    Yes.  Q    That sounds fair. Today money is obtained from the  trapping territory?  A    Yes.  Q    Do you remember when you were young, Jessie, whether or  not there was trading with the people on the Nass?  Do  you remember that?  THE INTERPRETER:  She was told or she heard the elders talk  that there was a road on the other side of Kispiox that  went to the Nass River and it's referred to today as the  Grease Trails.  The people from this area would use  those trails to go and get ooligan grease.  She really can't remember what they traded with.  She was too small.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    You also told us about the use of the territory and the  fishing sites for fishing, and you mentioned there was  some spring fishing in which you caught trout; was there  anything else that you used to catch in the spring from  the fishing sites?  A    It was mostly trout, they're quite big trout.  This is  what they had before the big run on the rivers, like  sockeye and spring salmon.  Q    You would fish the sockeye and the spring salmon as well  when the runs came along?  A    The spring salmon would come first.  Q    And then after that?  A    Sockeye.  mi so'o. Ya' a.  Q    Now, after miso'o had gone was there winter fishing? Do  you remember doing winter fishing?  A    They would get steelhead during the winter.  Q    Was this ice fishing that they did or how did they catch  the fish in the winter?  A    They would fish where there were openings in the frozen  river.  Q    Do you remember doing any ice fishing yourself?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, she didn't.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Now, I'll just ask you one or two more questions about  fishing, then we'll have a short break I think. We have  a good hour and 15 minutes.  You told me that people would give you fish today, 70  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  how is this fish prepared that you are given today?  A   I would can them.  Or I would freeze them.  Q   Do you receive any smoked fish?  A   Whenever I wanted I know people to go to and I buy it  from them.  Q   Now, when someone gives you fish how do you show your  appreciation  for that?  A   When our house has a feast we remember these people and  we give them gifts.  Q   At the feast?  THE  INTERPRETER:  At the feast.  MR. RUSH: That might be the place for me to stop. I want to  ask you a little bit about things like berries, berry  picking after we have a short break, so maybe what we  can do is take a moment now and have a recess.     SHORT RECESS  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   We can re-commence now, Jessie?  A   Yes.  Q   I want to ask you now about the berry grounds in the  territory; can you tell me where the berry grounds are  located?  A   There is one in the area of the Awiijii Lake.  Q   Did you pick berries there yourself?  A   Yes, I have been there.  Q   How do you pick them?  A   Use our hands to pick.  Q   The reason I ask that question is that I know that there  are some people that used pickers, special pickers; did  you ever use those scoop pickers?  A   I've only used them for the blueberries that are closer  to the ground.  Q   But otherwise you hand pick, do you?  A   Yes.  Q   What are the types of berries that you would get at  Awiijii Lake?  A   Huckleberries.  Q   Are there blueberries there too?  A   There's lots of the high bush blueberries there.  There  are no blueberries out there.  Q   After you pick the huckleberries or the blueberries how  do you prepare them?  A    (In English)  Preserve them.  We preserve them in jars  and we freeze some of them.  Q    Did you ever dry them? 71  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   We dried some when I was younger and I was staying with  my auntie.  Q   When you were younger how did you dry them? Can you  just tell me how you did that?  THE INTERPRETER:  I am just trying to think of the English  words.  THE WITNESS: They build racks, wooden racks, they were long  ones.  They used cedar.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Did they dry on the cedar racks?  A   They picked thimbleberry leaves, they are quite broad.  They would pick these thimbleberry leaves in some big  bags and before they would --  THE INTERPRETER:  -- the terms that they used in Gitksan --  'niigats'a.  THE WITNESS: Before they pour the berries on these leaves.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  I was trying to get the English term for  this plant she's talking about. We call it hanok.  THE WITNESS: You see them growing in water, places like  swamps.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Are they water lilies?  THE INTERPRETER:  It would be a water lily type.  I know the  English term for it but I can't think of it right now.  They would use that.  THE WITNESS: They would put the leaves on the rack in layers.  They would put several layers of these leaves on the  racks so they wouldn't leak, quite a few layers. There  would be fire under the rocks about that height.  The  berries would be crushed and they would pour the juice  on, and they would remove most of the juice off before  they would pour it on these rocks. When it was -- when  the berries were almost dry they would put another rack  on and then they would flip it over so the other side  could be smoked. When the berries were completely  dried then they would put them in rolls and that was  how they stored them.  MR.  RUSH:  I see.  THE INTERPRETER:  She remembers helping her aunt do this.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Where were the berries stored after they had been 72  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  rolled up?  A   They would put them in the storage box, wooden storage  box and store them where it was cool.  Q   I see.  This is -- they would use these rolls of dried  berries for trade with ooligan with the Niska people, or  down the coast for seaweed.  It was a trade item.  MR. RUSH: I just want to follow that up.  Q   You traded berries for seaweed, did you?  A   Seaweed and the coastal food.  They would dry it,  whatever was harvested down the coast in the Prince  Rupert area.  Q   Yes?  A   All the seafoods, they dried them and that is what they  would get.  Q   When you traded with the people from the coast was that  trade over the Skeena River or over the Grease Trail  through the Nass?  A   Before the river boats they used canoes to get down to  the coast. They called them the canoes of the Haida,  they were big, these canoes were used by the people from  the coast. They would come in the spring time before  the river boats were on the river and they would bring  their resources, their dried seafood to trade here.  Q   May I just ask you one question that comes from what you  said.  Were the canoes that came to -- brought the  people to trade with you, the Haida, you said that they  were Haida canoes, were there any canoes made by the  people from the Gitksan?  A   They made canoes here out of cottonwood and they weren't  as big as the Haida canoes because the trees down in the  coastal area are so much bigger.  Q   Would the Gitksan then using their canoes travel down to  the coast with goods to trade with the Haida?  THE INTERPRETER: She can't recall them going down with their  canoes.  She can remember that was -- when the river  boat started  -- were in use here, that was how the  people come here, travel down the coast.  MR.  RUSH: I  see.  Q   I was asking you about the berries, were there any other  plants or roots that were taken from the territory and  harvested?  A   Yes, they harvested roots for medicine or the bark of  the trees from the territories.  Q   Do you remember what kind of roots you harvested for  medicine?  A   They harvested juniper roots for medicine.  Q   Okay. 73  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A    They used cedar. Cedar bark. The roots of the soap  berry bushes.  They also used -- harvested the water  lily. The bulbs. The roots of the water lily.  They  would use them for poultices.  Q    How would they use these poultices?  For what kind of  Pain would it be used?  A    They would use them whenever they have aches.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  For the aches they would slice the roots.  THE INTERPRETER:  I guess they're bulbs, I am not too sure.  THE WITNESS:  They would tie them on where the aches were  and they would put hot stones to heat them up.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Did they use the leaf of the water lily in any way:  THE INTERPRETER:  Not that she's aware.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    How did the people use the juniper?  A    They would boil the roots and the branches. They called  it laxsnaxnos.  THE INTERPRETER:   Whatever the English interpretation of  laxsnaxnos is, they called the plant that.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    What is the Gitksan name for the plant name?  A    laxsnaxnos.  MR. RUSH:  I am not going to try that one!  THE INTERPRETER:  She will have it.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    How was the juniper used when it was used?  You say it  was used as a medicine?  A    They would boil it and they would add other things and  drink maybe half a cup of it.  Q    I see.  A    As a medicine.  Q    I see. Was this strong medicine?  A    They termed it the medicine of the tree or the bush, and  they drank it so it must have been good for them or they  wouldn't have drunk it. They would also add the Devil  club to make it stronger.  Q    Okay.  A    Or whatever the need was, and they still do it today.  Some of the people still use it. 74  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   Do some of the people still use the Devil's Club and the  juniper today?  A   Yes,  it is still in use.  Q   The Devil's Club is a type of plant that is found in the  bush?  A   Yes. Q    It is  not always wise to step on the Devil's Club,  is  it?  A   No!  Q   The cedar bark, what was the cedar bark used for?  A   Cedar bark was used for many things.  Q   What were those things?  A   They made those wreaths that we talked about.  Q   Yes?  A   They used cedar bark for that.  They had woven baskets  and mats out of cedar bark.  Q   What is the Gitksan name for woven basket?  A    'Noo'o.  Q    'Noo'o, okay. Can you tell me, did the people use the  trees in the forest in special ways?  A    One of the uses of the trees is --  THE INTERPRETER:  -- I just have to think about the English  term -- the white stuff that they pull off in the  spring.  THE WITNESS:  In the spring, yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  There is a term for it. Our term is ganiix.  THE WITNESS:  The other food they make out of it, they call it  Xsu'u. This is different  from ganiix.  Ganiix is the  sap of the tree.  When they pull it off it looks like  noodles, early in May.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Was this eaten or was it    A    No, it's just eaten fresh, it's not cooked. They call  it ganiix, they have to eat it right away.  Q    What kind of tree was this taken from?  A    Pine tree.  Q    The pine tree is xsu'ua?  A    Skaniist is pine tree.  THE INTERPRETER:  What is the English term for seeks -- just  wait a minute.  MR.  RUSH:  Well,  let's    THE INTERPRETER:  My memory is not very good.  MR. RUSH: We'll come back to that one.  We'll try to  remember that one.  Q    Is that another type of tree?  A    That's where these noodles come from. 75  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   Now, let me ask you, did they also use the trees to mark  the boundaries of the territory?  A   Yes, they use it to blaze trails or mark their  boundaries.  Q   Did they ever carve in the trees in the bush? Did the  people ever carve in the trees?  THE INTERPRETER:  While it was standing, you mean?  MR RUSH:  Yes, while it was standing.  THE WITNESS:  Yes, they would put marks on the tree but never  enter right into the tree, just on the bark.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   What kind of marks would they be?  A   Sometimes in the form of a mask, not many people did it,  just some of them did it.  Q   Could you tell us whose territory it was from the mask?  A   No, it was never --it was just a pasttime, it was  something they did, it really had no significance to the  culture, it was a pasttime.  Q   All right. Let me ask you now if you remember, when did  the government first start to interfere with the way  that you used your territories, particularly with  trapping.  Do you remember that?  THE INTERPRETER: She cannot give the date but she remembers  that when Biiniks would tell her about registering his  territory.  That's when -- that was the first  involvement of the white people.  THE WITNESS: He was talking about that territory, the map.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   This is a map of the territory?  A   Yes.  Q   I am going to come to the map in just a moment. When  Biiniks told you about registering  this territory, was  that the first time that you were aware of the  government interference with your trapping?  THE INTERPRETER:  She recalls    THE WITNESS: All I recall is when he talked about having to  register the territory in order to verify his ownership.  THE INTERPRETER: She was quite young at the time.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Now, are there other places on your territory which are  used by white people today without your permission?  A   There is a road that goes through our territory, a  highway.  Q   Did you ever give anyone permission to build that road? 76  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A    No, I didn't give any. It was after Biiniks died that  the highway was put through.  Q    And did anyone in your house to your knowledge ever give  any consent or permission for people to use or build the  highway?  A    No, we didn't.  Q    You talked a little earlier today about logging that was  going on in one part of your territory, where is that?  A    The logging starts from Bell I to Taft Creek, it's about  20 miles in area.  Now they're starting....     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  It is practically logged off and if we don't do  something about it right now there will be nothing  there. They interfered with the resources and there's  very left to log off right now.  MR. PLANT:  Excuse me, a moment ago did Jessie say something  about maps?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes. She has a map in her possession  that  she will show you of the area where this logging is  going on.  MR. RUSH:  We'll come back to the map in just a moment.  Q    What kind of interference has there been by the logging  on the territory?  A    When the trees are gone, before even today have been  scared off and the animals have gone somewhere else, and  if it is not stopped, our territory will not be good for  anything.  Q    Now, the territory that you have described, I think you  said from Bell I to?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Taft Creek.  BY  MR. RUSH:  Q    Taft Creek, you remember earlier you told us about three  territories of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o? Which one of  these three territories is this happening on?  A    In the area of Awiijii.  Q    Now, did the people who are logging on this area around  Awiijii that you have described, did they come to you or  to any member of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o and ask  permission  to go ahead and log your territory?  A    NO, nobody approached us.  Q    Did you yourself or anyone from the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o  ever give anybody their consent or  permission  to go and log that territory?  A    NO.  Nobody gave them permission. 77  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   If the whole of the territory is logged what value for  you will there be left in the territory?  A   There will be nothing left.  Q   Now, apart from the area of your territory that you have  described around Awiijii, are there any other parts of  your territory or the territory of Gyedimgaldo'o which  have been logged or which are now being logged?  A   I haven't been to the area but I have been told that on  Ansumlaan is practically logged off.  THE INTERPRETER: That is in the Babine area.  MR.  RUSH:  Yes.  Q   Did you or anyone from your house give  anyone  permission to log over to Ansumlaan?  A   No.  Q   Now,  I want to ask you about some maps, and you have  given a map and you talked about it at your last  Commission where you gave evidence but, just before you  do that, I wanted to ask you one or two things about Sam  Hope. You have referred to Sam Hope, what is Sam Hope's  relationship  to you?  A   He's the son of a house member.  His father was  'Wiigoob'1.  Q   Is that Charlie 'Wiigoob'l?  A   Yes.  Q   And is he sometimes called Charlie Oop?  A   Yes, he is known as Charlie Oop.  Q   What Clan or p'tekt was Charlie Oop from?  A   He is from the House of Lax Seel.  Q   Which village was Charlie Oop from?  A   Gitanmaax.  Q   Was Sam Hope also from Gitanmaax?  A   Yes, he was born here.  Q   Now, you recall that you told us that Sam Hope sold some  of the regalia of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A   Yes.  Q   Can you tell us about how old he was when he did that?  A   He was an adult.  Q   Did he have any authority from anybody in the house to  sell any of the regalia?  A   He just sold it without asking anybody.  Q   Now, I want to ask you about a map that you referred to  earlier in your testimony that you say was given to you  by Daniel Skawil.  I just want to show you this map.  Will you look at that, is that the map that was given by  Daniel Skawil to you?  A   Yes, this is the one.  Q   I wonder if you would just show the map to the cameraman  so that can be shown on the camera? 78  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A    Yes.  Q    This map was given to you by Daniel Skawil when you  were, how old were you at the time?  A    He gave it to me before he died, not too long ago.  Sometime in the forties.  Q    When Daniel Skawil gave you the map, why did he give you  and what did he say to you?  A    This is what he said, he said whatever possessions I  have, not to worry about it, just hold on to the  territory, this is our resource and this is where we  obtain our living.  Q     Now, you can just set the map down I think, Jessie, and  this might be difficult to do but it is important to do  it. I've taken a photocopy of the map and I think it's  not as good as the map but I would like you just to look  at the black and white photocopy and I will ask you if  the photocopy I am showing you is identical or the same  as the map?  A    Yes, this is a copy of that original map.  Q    Yes, maybe just again hold both the photocopy and the  map towards the camera -- yes, that's great.  Now, the photocopy you're saying is the same as the  map?  A    Yes.  MR. RUSH: That's fine, thank you, Jessie.  What I would like to do is mark as the next Exhibit  the photocopy of the map.  Mr. Plant has had a look at  it and we've agreed what we will try to do is outline in  red those lines on the map, that is on the original map  that appear in the colour red on that map, and we will  do that before too long I suppose.  Let' s have that  marked as the next Exhibit.  THE WITNESS:  One of the things that he said when he gave me,  because of the generation of children coming up, that I  would like you to make sure it stays within our house so  that the children, future generation can use it.  MR .  RUSH:  Okay.    EXHIBIT NO. 7 - Photocopy of map of the territory  given 'Wiigoob'l by Daniel Skawil.  MR. RUSH: One of the reasons that I am having photocopies  marked as an Exhibit, Jessie, is so that I can return  the original map to you so it will remain in your  possession.  Q    Now, let me ask you about this map. What does it show?  This is the map that you have shown us here today, what  did you understand this map to show when Daniel Skawil 79  STERRITT,  J.  In chief  Mr. Rush  gave it to you?  A    He said when he gave it to me, this is the map of our  territory, the boundaries that he has registered with --  this is just part that he registered.  This is not the  whole territory.  Q    That is what I want to ask. The map that you have shown  us, is this part of the territory that Daniel Skawil  registered?  A    Yes.  Q    And is there more to the territory than what is shown on  this map?  A    No, that's just part of the territory.  Q    The territory that you referred to as Awiijii where the  logging is going on,  is it in the territory that is  shown on the map here?  A    I can't see,  I can't read that map but Awiijii is on  this map that I have here.  MR. PLANT: I'm sorry, does she know Awiijii is on the map  which we have made a copy and had marked?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, she can't see it.  MR. PLANT: But she knows it is on there or is she referring  to another map?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: It should be on there.  THE INTERPRETER: But the names aren't on that map so she can't  read it.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Do I understand your evidence to be that Awiijii should  be on the map, Exhibit seven, this map in front of us,  but you can't read the name on the map?  A    It should be on there.  Q    But it is    THE INTERPRETER: She can see Bowser Lake but she doesn't see  Awi i j i i.  MR. RUSH: Okay.  I would just like to advise you, Mr. Plant,  that this map is not to scale, so to the extent there  may be items not shown on the map there may be some  explanation for that.  Q    What I would like to do is ask you, Jessie, you have  referred to another map, a second map in which the place  of Awiijii is shown on the map, do you have that with  you today?  A    Yes, I have it.  Q    Could you show us that map? Do you want to point, 80  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  direct the map to the camera?  THE INTERPRETER:  Is it upside down?  THE WITNESS :  No.  MR.  PLANT:  I think it's on its side.  MR. RUSH:  I think it is on its side.  MR. PLANT]  I don't think that's right either.  THE INTERPRETER:  That is the top part of there.  MR. RUSH:  This is the top here where your left hand is.  Q    DO you see on the map, can you read on the map where  Awi i j i i is?  A    (In English) This is where the cabin is now,  this is  where Johnny    Q    You're pointing to a red mark, it looks like a red  circle on this map?  A    That is where the cabin is.  Q    Whose cabin is that?  A    Johnny Wilson. Who registered the territory.  And the  red marks is where the logging is going on.  Those are  the spawning areas.  Q    Jessie, I wonder if you could just show the map to Mike  who is working the camera, and if I can just ask you to  turn the map around like this.  You have pointed out to  a red dot and that is where you say the cabin is  located?  A    Yes.  Q    I see your hand coming around. I think what might be a  good thing would be for me to hold the map and could you  stand up please, Jessie?  A    Yes.  Q    Would you just point out to where the cabin is again?  A    (In English) Right there.  Q    That is the red dot?  A    Yes.  MR. PLANT: Could you try and describe its location in words,  Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  It is located it seems close to the juncture of  Awiijii Lake Creek and Skawil Creek?  A    (In English)  It is right on Skawil Creek.  Q    Appears to be on Skawil Creek?  A    Yes.  Q    Two other dotted lines in red on the map, are these  places where you said trapping is going on?  A    Yes.  Q    Excuse me, the logging is going on?  A    (In English) Yes, where the red spots. Half-way from up  here eh. About 20 miles from Bell I to there.  Q    Is this the Awiijii territory that you have been talking 81  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  about?  A    Yes.  MR. RUSH:  Just maybe sit down again, Jessie.  MR. PLANT:  When she pointed to Bell I you would agree with  me that is a point very close to Mount Bell Irving?  MR.  RUSH:   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  The red cross?  MR.  RUSH:   Yes.  MR. PLANT: And she identified 20 miles from that red cross to  the red cross almost in the middle of the map?  MR.  RUSH:   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  Between Bell I and Irving?  MR.  RUSH:   Yes.  MR.  PLANT:  Thank you.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Can you tell us where this map came from, Jessie?  A    This map was made at the Tribal Council office.  MR RUSH:  You would like a copy of this I take it, would you,  Mr. Plant?  MR. PLANT:  Yes please.  MR. RUSH:  I think we should do this, for me to get a copy of  this map and I'll provide you with a copy and we'll mark  it as the next Exhibit, Exhibit eight.  I am reluctant  again to have this map out of Jessie's possession but  what I'll try to do is get copies of this map made up  for you and for the record.  MR. PLANT:  Do you think you might be able to get that done  over the lunch hour?  MR. RUSH:  I will try my best.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Now, the territory that you have shown us on the map,  which we will mark as Exhibit eight,  is this territory  being used for hunting today?  A    Yes,  it is in use today, this is where Johnny is  trapping.    EXHIBIT NO. 8 - Photocopy of map, to be marked later.  obtained from Tribal Council Office.  BY MR . RUSH:  Q   Does Johnny trap there with anybody?  A   He traps there with his two sons.  Q   The game that is on the territory you have referred to,  am I correct in saying, that it is moose and bear?  A   Yes, and beaver.  Q   And beaver, okay.  Is there fishing on the territory as 82  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  well?  A   Yes, there is fishing there.  Q   Are there people from your house today who go there to  hunt and fish and pick berries?  A   Yes, we're using it.  Q   So far as you recall, has there always been people from  your house hunting and fishing and berry picking on this  A   Yes, it's always been in use.  Q   Now, I want to ask about something you told us when you  previously testified.  You remember the peace feather  that you talked about for the peace settlement, the  xsiisxw?  A   Yes, I've got it with me.  Q   Yes, and I wanted you to show us the peace feather.  Can  you pull it out of your bag and show it to us?  A   This is what Daniel Skawil gave me along with the map.  Q   This is the peace feather?  A   Yes.  Q   That Daniel Skawil gave you, and you say belongs with  the map?  A   Yes.  Q   And that is the map that you said Daniel Skawil gave  you,  that is Exhibit seven?  A   Yes.  MR. RUSH:  May I have that? I'm showing it to Mr. Plant now.  MR. PLANT:  Would you like to describe it?  MR. RUSH:  I don't know that I can describe it in any better  way than it shows.  It is a brilliant red, made up of a  number of separate feathers.  It appears to be as many  as four or five separate feathers tied together in a  bundle.  MR. PLANT:  It is about a foot long.  MR. RUSH:  I would say it is a foot long, fanning out into a  beautiful fan. I want to give that back to you, Jessie,  and we have taken a couple of photographs of that  feather.  Q   I am just showing you two photographs, do they show the  peace feather that we are holding now?  A   Yes.  Q   Can I just have those held in the face of the camera?  Those are the photographs taken of the feather, is that  right?  A   Yes.  MR. RUSH:  Thanks a lot. Now,  I am going to ask that one of  these photographs be marked as Exhibit nine in the  proceedings and I am going to give you 83  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  MR. PLANT:  The other good one?  MR. RUSH: This good one here.  MR . PLANT:  Okay.  MR. RUSH: This one I am going to provide you as a copy.    EXHIBIT NO. 9 - Coloured photograph of peace feather.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Now, I have just about concluded all the questions I  have to ask you but, before I finish, I would like to  take the afternoon break so we can have some lunch.  I  think the last question that I have recorded that I  wanted to ask you is about the evidence you have given  on this commission and to the court.  My question is this?  Apart from the use of the  Evidence that you have given in Commission for the court  purposes on the lawsuit, do you give your permission for  anyone else to use your evidence?  A    The evidence I've given I would like it to be used just  for the court.  Q    Is it the case that you do not want your evidence to be  used by anyone else except the court?  A    No, I would just like it to be used for the court.  Q    That would be without your permission, no one could use  it without your permission,  is that correct?  A    Yes, I would like them to ask me permission before they  use it.  MR. PLANT: Do you mean by that, when you use the word "court"  you obviously intend to refer to the Defendant?  MR. RUSH: Court purposes,  that's correct.  MR.  PLANT:  Yes.  MR. RUSH: That's right. Now, Jessie, I think we can now  adjourn until perhaps 1.30 when we can come back after  lunch and I would just review my notes to see if I have  any more questions for you. If I don't have any more  questions, then Mr. Plant will ask you some questions  after lunch.  So we can adjourn now.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH AT 12.35 p.m.    UPON RESUMING AT 1.45 p.m.  MR. RUSH: Just to continue your evidence, Jessie, I have a  few more questions to ask you about the holders of the  name Gyedimgaldo'o and Xskiigimlaxha and Biiniks.  I 84  STERRITT,  J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  think you have given us most of this evidence already  but I wanted to be sure that I understood who held the  name Gyedimgaldo ' o and so on.  Q    Firstly, let me ask you about Gyedimgaldo'o.  The  present holder of the name of Gyedimgaldo'o I think you  have told us is Sylvester Green?  A    Yes.  Q    Before Sylvester Green, Thomas Danes held the name?  A    Yes.  Q    Before Thomas Danes was it Charlie Clifford Senior who  held the name?  A    Yes.  Q    Before Charlie Clifford Senior I think you said it was  James White who held the name?  A    Yes.  Q    Before James White was the holder of the name Alexander  Mowat?  A    Yes.  Q    And before Alexander Mowat was the holder of the name  Thomas Muldoe?  Excuse me, Thomas Muldoe's father?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, Xskiigimlaxha, the present holder of the name  xskiigimlaxha I think you have told us is Johnny Wilson?  A    Yes.  Q    And before Johnny Wilson the holder of the name was  Daniel Skawil?  A    Yes.  Q    Before Daniel Skawil was John Nagun?  A    Yes.  Q    I think we well know the holders of the name 'Wiigoob'l  but just let me review them again. You're the present  holder of the name 'Wiigoob'l?  A    Yes.  Q    And before you Albert Brown held the name?  A    Yes.  Q    Before Albert Brown was Charlie Oop?  A    Yes.  Q    I just wanted to ask you about Biiniks. The present  holder of the name Biiniks is Charlotte Sullivan,  is  that right?  A    Yes.  Q    And before Charlotte was Philip Morrison, is that right?  A    Yes.  Q    Before Philip Morrison was Daniel Skawil?  MR. RUSH:  Those are all the questions I have of you. Would  you now answer the questions of Mr. Plant.  THE WITNESS :  Yes . 85  STERRITT,  Cross-EX  Mr . Plant  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR.  PLANT  Q   The first questions I have deal with the seating at the  feast hall, and I may be repeating some of the questions  that you have already been asked but I am trying to get  things straight in my own mind.  A   Yes.  Q   I understand that Nikat' een sits on your left in the  feast hall, is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   Is Nikat' een the chief of a house or wilp?  A   Yes, he is the chief of house.  Q   Is Nikat'een, the present holder of the name Nikat'een,  is that James Woods?  A   Yes, James Woods Junior.  Q   Mr. Rush used the word p'tekt which I understand to be  something like Clan; what p'tekt or Clan is Nikat'een a  member of?  A   He is Lax Seel.  Q   Which is Frog or Raven?  THE INTERPRETER:   Frog.  MR. PLANT:  Mr. Rush, is Nikat' een one of the Plaintiffs  in  the action?  MR. RUSH:  Nikat'een?  MR. PLANT:  Paragraph 22 of the Statement of Claim. Just a  couple of things I want to tie together here.  MR. RUSH:  Yes. Paragraph 22 indicates that Nikat'een is the  hereditary chief of the House of Nikat'een.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   On your right in the feast hall sits Walter Wilson who  is the holder of the name Ts'ogoshle?  A   Yes, Ts'ogoshle, he sits on the right.  Q   What p'tekt is Ts'ogoshle?  A   He's also Lax Seel.  MR: PLANT:  Mr. Rush, paragraph 12 of the Statement of Claim  may be a reference to that person and I would just like  your confirmation that it is?  MR. RUSH:  Yes. Ts'ogoshle  is the Plaintiff described in  paragraph 12.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Mrs. Sterritt, to the left of Nikat'een sits A'yawasxw,  is that correct?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN 86  STERRITT,  Cross-EX  Mr. Plant  THE WITNESS:  Her name is Eileen Robinson.  THE INTERPRETER:  She can't think of her Indian name right  now.  THE WITNESS:  That is who sits presently.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   To the left of Nikat' een?   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. PLANT: Is Irene Robinson chief of a wilp?  A   She's a member of Nikat'een' house.  Q   Is it Irene or Eileen?  A   Eileen.  Q   To the right of Ts'ogoshle is Gyedimgaldo'o, is that  correct?  A   Yes.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  Today he sits....  THE INTERPRETER:  She expressed it, a long time to today  they used tables and he now sits at the head table,  Gyedimgaldo'o  does.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   So he is the senior chief at the feast, is that the  case?  A   Yes, he is the head.  Q   On the right of Gyedimgaldo'o I understand that today  it's Bruce Johnson who sits there?  A   Yes.  Q   His Gitksan name is Axtits'eix?  A   Axtits'eix.  Q   I won't try to reproduce it? Is he the Chief of a wilp?  A   Yes, he is the Chief from the House of Ts'ogoshle.  Q   What is his p'tekt?  A   He's also Lax Seel.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  In the feast house there is only on the Lax Seel  table it is only Lax Seel people who sit there.  MR. PLANT: That was going to be my next question. Thank you.  Q   The next person to the right is Joshua Campbell, is that  right?  A   Yes. 87  STERRITT,  J.  Cross-EX  Mr . Plant  Q Do you remember what his Gitksan name is?  A Xwitsimxwsts'iin.  Q Is he the Chief of a house?  A Yes.  Q Then to the right of Joshua Campbell is Ben McKenzie,  Lutkuts'iiwus?  A Lutkuts'iiwus, yes.  Q Is he the Chief of a house?  A Yes, he is a Chief.  Q Of the House of Lutkuts'iiwus?  A Yes.  MR. PLANT: Mr. Rush, I draw your attention to paragraph 19 of  the Statement of Claim.  MR. RUSH: Yes, he is one of the Plaintiffs, yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Does Xskiigimlaxha have a place at the table in the  feast?  A    He sits at another table, he has his own table.  Biiniks  also sits at that table.  Q    Skawil, does Skawil sit at the table with Xskiigimlaxha  and Biiniks?  A    Yes, at Xskiigimlaxha's table.  Q    Am I right in thinking that the table that Gyedimgaldo'o  sits at is at the front of the room or the head of the  room that the feast is in?  A    That's away from the door, it is usually away from the  door.  Q    Furthest away from the door?  A    Yes, that seems to be important place is way at the  back, away from the door.  Q    And the table Gyedimgaldo'o  sits at, is that the most  important table in the feast hall?  A    Yes.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  There are other people who are important and  seem to go in that area.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q    Other people in addition to those people that we have  already named?  A    Yes, all the hereditary chiefs.  Q    It is only the chiefs in Lax Seel, the Frog Clan,  that  attend these feasts, is that correct? 88  STERRITT,  Cross-EX  Mr. Plant  A   Yes, the chiefs are invited, those that are invited  attend the feasts.  Today it is more open.  Long time  ago it was just people with names that were invited to  the feast.  Q   In the old days would the people of the Wolf Clan and  the people of the Frog Clan attend the same feasts?  A   If the Lax Seel Clan are hosting a feast the invited  guests are the Fireweeds and the Wolfs.  It is the  hosting Clan that -- the Lax Seel who would put  resources in, the money now.  Q   Yes.  And they decide who they want to invite to the  feast?  A   All the hereditary chiefs and those with important names  invited.  Q   Is Spookxw a chief that is known to you, Jessie?  A   Yes.  Q   Is he a chief in Gitanmaax?  A   Yes.  Q   What is his Clan or p'tekt?  A   Lax Gibuu, that would be Wolf.  Q   How about Wii Gaak?  THE INTERPRETER:  What was that?  MR. PLANT:  Wii Gaak?  THE WITNESS:  Yes, that is a chief.  That is Neil Sterritt  Senior.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   Is he also a Wolf?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, I think I know a little bit about what a wilp and  what a p'tekt is but there is another word I have read  and that word is wilnad'ahl; does that word mean  anything to you?  THE INTERPRETER: Wilnad'ahl, is that what you're referring  to?  MR. PLANT: I'm open to anybody's guess how to pronounce  W-I-L-N-A-D - apostrophe - A-H-L.  THE INTERPRETER: That would be wilnad'ahl.  Q   What would that mean?  THE INTERPRETER: That is family.  Her family would be  wilnad'ahl. Members of the house, that is, they refer  to them as wilnad'ahl.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is house or wilp different from the wilnad'ahl?  A   No, it is one and the same.  Q   Now, I want to look at the photograph that we looked at 89  STERRITT,  J.  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  the very first time we got together and which we marked  as Exhibit one.  I wonder if you have the photograph itself, Mr.  Rush?  MR. RUSH:  Referring to this photograph?  MR. PLANT:   Yes.  MR. RUSH:  I am showing you the photograph Exhibit one.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   You remember looking at this photograph?  A   Yes.  Q   You remember Mr. Rush marked the G there, do you see  that G on the photograph?  A   Yes.  Q   I understood from your earlier evidence that the G was  put on the House of Gyedimgaldo'o? A  Yes.  Q   And over on the left you or Mr. Rush put a W and I  understood that was the House of 'Wiigoob'l?  A   Yes.  Q   As I remember your evidence it was that the house which  is to the left of Gyedimgaldo'o was the House of  Guuhadxw?  A   Yes.  MR. RUSH:  To the left,  is it? MR. PLANT:  Yes.  Q   Was Guuhadxw  a chief or is Guuhadxw a wilp?  A   Yes.  Q   Guuhadxw  is wilp?  MR. RUSH:  You asked two questions.  MR. PLANT:  Exactly. It was my fault, I apologize for that.  I'll start again.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Guuhadxw,  is that the name of a wilp?  A   Yes.  Q   And do you remember when you were a little girl there  was a chief that had the name Guuhadxw?  A   Yes, there is the name.  Q   Is there still someone who has the name Guuhadxw?  THE INTERPRETER: She thinks it's held by Thomas Wright. She  could be wrong, don't quote her on that.  THE WITNESS:   (In English)  I am not too sure. 90  STERRITT, J.  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q       Do you remember the Clan of Guuhadxw?  A       Wolf.  Q       Still looking at that photograph, I believe you said  that Skawil lived in a house near the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o but it was just a small house?  A       Yes, just on the other side of Wayamuux.  Q       Was that when Skawil held the name of Biiniks also?  THE INTERPRETER:   He became Biiniks before she was born and  also he lived in that house below the hill.  THE WITNESS:  Those are single units.  THE INTERPRETER: What was your last question?  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    I wanted to know in part where Biiniks lived but I know  on that same point Skawil held the name Biiniks so maybe  the answer to the question is the same?  A    Yes, he was in the new houses up on the other side of  that Guuhadxw's house. He formerly lived at the bottom  of the hill, the house is still visible in that picture.  Q    Perhaps you could turn the photograph around and point  out the house at the bottom of the hill?  A    That is where he lived formerly.  (In English) This one here.  Q    That is the house on the extreme left of the photograph,  the house in the lower left part?  A    That one there.  THE INTERPRETER: Whose house is that?  THE WITNESS: Wayamuux.  MR. PLANT: Perhaps we could get some more information put on  this photograph, would that be possible?  MR. RUSH: That's fine.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    If I put S there, that will be the House of Skawil that  he lived in?  A    (In English) Yes, this one here.  And this is Philip  Morrison's house, and this is Abel Oaks, there's three  houses there.  Q    Perhaps I don't need to put a mark on there.  There is  three houses there?  A    Close together.  Q    Immediately to the left of this large roof on the left  hand side of the photograph and going through to the  left you say Skawil, Philip Morrison and    A    Abel Oaks.  Q    DO you know who lived in the house with the large roof 91  STERRITT,  Cross-EX  Mr . Plant  immediately below the letter W?  A   Wayamuux.  Q   Jessie, do you remember living in one of the houses on  the top of the hill when you were very small?  A   We lived in the House of Gyedimgaldo'o.  Q   That was when you were a little girl, is that correct?  A   Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  She doesn't remember the date but she  remembers standing on top of the hill watching Sargent's  store burn down, so it would be after contact.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   That leads me to the question I was going to ask, what  else would you see when you stood at the top of the  hill? You could see Sargent's store, could you see the  Hudson Bay Store?  A   Yes, the location is up on the hill here and The Bay  Store was along the river here, to the left of the  little park here.  (In English) There were buildings out there.  Q   Were there buildings along the river bank?  A   Yes.  Q   And were those buildings where the white people lived?  A   Yes, the Bay manager, Mr. Boyd, lived there.  Q   And Mr. Sargent had his store which you could see?  A   Yes, it is where that present Shopper's Drug Mart, that  is where Sargent's store was.  Q   Was there any other store in the town?  A   C.B. Smith had a store. William Holland, he was  Gitksan, he had a store.  Q   William Holland was a Gitksan?  A   Yes.  Q   What about Mr. Smith, was he Gitksan?  A   No. No, he wasn't a Gitksan. Mr. Smith was Mr. Meyers'  father-in-law.  Q   Who was Mr. Meyers?  THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Meyers later took the store, didn't he?  Mr. Smith's store.  He was married to Mr. Smith's  daughter.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  The daughter he married Jessie went to  school with her and they're both on the picture that she  forgot to bring.  MR. PLANT:  This might be the appropriate time to stop the  tape. 92  STERRITT,  Cross-EX  Mr. Plant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. PLANT:  Q Jessie, we were talking about what you could see from  the top of the hill, if I can put it that way. could  you see where the steam boat, the river boat came in?  A   The landing was just below, down here, that is where the  Hudson's Bay was and the boats would land there. There  was another store, Cunningham's store just down the  street.  Q   Cunningham's store.  A   Where the totem pole is right now by the library.  Q   All the places you have just referred to, they're very  close to where this Examination is taking place, and  that is right on the banks of the Skeena in Old  Hazelton, is that so?  A   Yes.  Q   Were there churches in the village?  A   There was the Anglican Church here.  THE INTERPRETER:   She remembers being baptized in 1903.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   Is that the church right next door to this house?  A   Yes.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  Alex Oaks had a store, just along the river,  just on the site of the library. Where the library is  here, and he was Gitksan.  MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  Q   Was there a school in the village here down on the river  banks?  A   There was a school right at the corner where the  Anglican Mission House is now, along this street here, a  little log house.  THE INTERPRETER:   This was the school she went to.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Did white children go to that school?  A   Yes.  Q   White children and Indian children?  A   There were no Indian children. There was just my  brother  and I, and my cousin Mary Oldson who went to  school there.  Native children went to the Anglican  school next door here.  It was called The Indian Day  School. 93  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  Q    But you went to the school that the white children went  to?  A    Yes.  Q    Did you go to that school because your father was  Chinese?  A    I think that is why I went there.  Q    And your father was Mr. Lumm,  is that correct?  A    Yes.  Q    He was a prospector?  A    Yes.  Q    What language did he speak?  A    They used the language they called Chinook.  Q    Did you speak with your father in this language,  Chinook?  A    I used it a bit.  Q    Did you speak to your father in English?  Did he speak  English?  A    Yes, he used English to us.  Q    Where did you live when your father and mother were both  alive?  A    We lived down the river here,  I don't know if you are  aware where the ferry used to be.  Q    You lived close to where the steam boats came in?  A    Yes.  Q    That is in the area that is now the Village of Hazelton?  A    Part of the reserve but it is farther down the river,  not right in the town area.  Q    Is it as far down the river as Gitksan?  A    In that area, yes, the back area of 'Ksan. It's right  beside where the camp grounds are now.  Q    That is where the river boats came?  A    Sometimes if there was a boat at the Bay landing then  they would land further down where they lived. Then  when the boat that was at the landing would go away then  they would move up to the landing.  THE INTERPRETER: She's just remembering when she was a little  girl when the boats would come the oranges that hadn't  quite survived the trip, starting to go bad, they would  jUSt throw them in the river and she remembers she and  her friend, Ellen Johnson from Kispiox, would just lift  their skirts and pick them up.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   The house that you lived in with your mother and father  when they were both alive, was that on the reserve or  outside  the reserve?  A   It was on the reserve. 94  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  THE INTERPRETER: Her father was a prospector and when he come  home that's where he stay.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    When your father was not at home where did you stay?  A    Same place.  Q    I understand from your earlier evidence that your father  did not adopt the Gitksan way of life and he -- I'll  leave it there.  A    No.  Q       Did he become a member of your wilp or the wilp of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    No.  Q     If he had wanted to, could he have been adopted into the  wilp?  A    No,  I don't think so.  Q    Is that because he was Chinese?  A    The Gitksan didn't do it at that time.  Today they do  it.  They take in non-Gitksan people into the   Q    Including white people?  A    Yes.  Q    In the old days was it possible for a wilp to take in  someone from another p'tekt?  A    Yes, they can but it happens in the feast hall and  there is resource spent.  Q    Would that also happen in marriage?  A    Yes, that would happen in marriage?  Q    When Mr. Rush was examining you, you said that your  father sent you photographs from China and you lost  them in the flood, do you remember that?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes, she lost the pictures in the big flood.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   When was the flood?  THE INTERPRETER: She can't remember the dates. She thinks in  the thirties.  THE WITNESS: (In English) Thirty-six, somewhere. They had to  move from their house in canoes because the area was  flooded and that is when the pictures were lost.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q       What area was flooded? Where they lived down on this  side?  A       Around "Ksan Camp Grounds.  Q       Was the village, was Hazelton flooded?  A       It was flooded down at this level, this street here,  that is when they moved the Hudson Bay House up to where 95  STERRITT,  Cross-EX  Mr. Plant  it is now, over here where the Wilsons lived.  The  Skeena River rose quite high and they were in danger of  losing the houses.  Q    It was because of that flood that the Hudson Bay Store  moved?  A    Yes.  Q    When Mr. Rush asked you questions you told him about  something that happened when you were a very little girl  I believe, when Gyedimgaldo'o sent James White to Ottawa  to speak on behalf of the Gitksan?  Do you remember?  THE INTERPRETER:  She can't put the date on it but she knows  what you're talking about.  She phoned up to another  lady, she's away right now, but she remembered and she  is more than likely remembers the date.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    The other lady that you phoned is someone who is likely  to remember the date?  A    Yes. Mrs. Wale, she's away in Vancouver right now.  Q    Was it before the railroad?  A    It was after.  THE INTERPRETER:  She thinks.  THE WITNESS:  Yes, it was after the railway because part of  their journey was on the railway. They also, the same  group also went to Victoria.  Q    Did anyone besides James White go on this journey from  Gitanmaax?  A    Nuxs from Kispiox. Morgan from Gitsegyukla.  I can't  tell you the names but it was all the hereditary chiefs  from each village in this area.  Q    Did anyone besides James White go from Gitanmaax, do you  remember?  A    Besides James White from here, Charles Martin went as  interpreter. He was also one of the --he also operated  a store here, and he is Gitksan too.  Q    Is he a chief?  A    Yes.  Q    Do you remember what wilp?  A    Wolf. He's from the house that Neil Senior belongs to.  Q    Is that 'Wiik'aax?  A    If you are referring to Neil, yes.  This Charles Martin  who went as interpreter is from that house,  'Wiik'aax.  Q    Why did this group go to Victoria?  A    It was to talk about the territory with the government.  THE INTERPRETER:  She doesn't recall anything about the trip  to Victoria but she was talking to Mrs. Wale's son and  he talked about it, that James White was his 96  STERRITT, J.  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  grandfather.  THE WITNESS:  I don't recall the trip.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Did you have this discussion with Mrs. Wale's son or  grandson very recently?  THE INTERPRETER:  She just phoned to talk to Mrs. Wale last  night. She wanted to find out about the year that they  went to Ottawa.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Do you know why this group wanted to talk about the  territory with the government or the people in the  government?  A   They were concerned about just being put off the  territory by the white people and they wanted to talk to  the government about it.  Q   Is that something that was happening at the time this  trip took place?  Was the white man putting the Gitksan  people off the territory?  A   Yes.  Q   DO you remember what happened when the people,  the  chief's came back from Ottawa and Victoria?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, she doesn't remember anything.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   Was there an Indian agent in Hazelton or near Hazelton  at about that time, do you remember?  A   Yes, there was one.  THE INTERPRETER:  The first one she remembers is Mr. Loring.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   Do you remember if Mr. Loring was married?  A   Yes, Mr. Loring was married to Constance Cox's mother.  Q   Was that Margaret Hankin?  A   Yes,  she married Mr. Loring after her husband, Mr.  Hankin died.  Q   Who was Mr. Hankin, do you remember?  A   I don't remember him.  Q   DO you remember if Mr. Loring's wife was a Gitksan?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  She wasn't a Gitksan but she was Native.  THE INTERPRETER:  She thinks maybe she was from the Queen  Charlotte  Islands, Haida.  She's not sure on that. 97  STERRITT,  Cross-EX  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    You're not sure about whether or not she was a Haida or  not?  THE INTERPRETER:  She ' s not sure .  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    But you're quite sure she was Native?  A    Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  She thinks she was a half-breed.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Do you remember when the railroad came through across  the river from Hazelton?  A    Yes, I remember.  THE INTERPRETER:  That is about the time her mother died. So  she thinks it is about 1912.  THE WITNESS:  (In English) It was called the GTP, Grand Trunk  pacific.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Do you remember if people from Gitanmaax,  the Gitksan  people went to work on the railroad?  A    Yes, they worked on there.  MR. PLANT:  Did she use the word sections?  THE INTERPRETER:  That was the maintenance crew, and the  Native people worked on the maintenance crew at the  railway.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Did Gitksan people also work to make railway ties, the  wood?  THE INTERPRETER:  She doesn't know. She remembers white  people making ties.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Do you remember when pack trains used to leave from  Hazelton for the telegraph line?  A    Yes, I remember.  Q    Was that when you were a very little girl?  A    Yes.  Q    Did Gitksan people work on the pack trains?  A    Yes, they worked on the pack train.  Q    Do you remember --or you may have read in the history  books something the white man calls the First World War  and I wonder if you remember when you were a little girl  if any people from Hazelton left Hazelton and went to  fight a long way away in a white man's war? 98  STERRITT,  Cross-EX  Mr. Plant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  She doesn't remember anyone going.  MR. PLANT:  I think we'll take a short break now, we've been  at it for an hour.    SHORT RECESS  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Jessie, I have a few questions about education.  You  told me where it was you went to school; how long did  you go to that school?  A   Not very long.  I was just starting on what they call  third grade.  THE INTERPRETER:  When her mother died.  That's as far as  her education went.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Did your aunt take you out of school?  A   The aunt was married to a trapper.  Just when school  would start in the fall that is when they would go out  on the trap line and come in for Christmas, stay in for  Christmas, and out again until May.  THE INTERPRETER: So she didn't have the opportunity to go to  school.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   You attended church here in the village? Did you go to  the Anglican Church when you were a small girl?  A   I attended the Anglican Church here, I was baptized by  the Reverend John Field.  MR. PLANT:  What was the last name?  THE INTERPRETER:   Field.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Have you gone to that church on and off for all your  life?  A   Yes, just one church I attend.  I'm a member of the  church, I have been baptized and confirmed there.  Q   When Mr. Rush examined you, and I think the first day  you talked about a time in adolescence where you went  into seclusion; do you remember that discussion with Mr.  Rush?  A   Yes, I remember.  Q   You were on the hunting trail?  A   Yes, on the hunting trail.  Q   Were you with your mother -- I'm sorry -- were you with 99  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  your aunt and your aunt' s husband?  A    Yes.  Q    What wilp did your aunt belong to?  A    Gyedimgaldo'o.  THE INTERPRETER:  The same as hers.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    When your aunt married were you still a member and your  aunt continued to be a member of the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes.  Q    What was the hunting territory that you were on at the  time that this period of seclusion began?  A    The territory of 'Wiik'aax. My aunt was married to  'Wiik'aax.  Q    Is that a wilp,  'Wiik'aax?  A    Yes.  Q    Is it a wilp that is close to Gyedimgaldo'o  or is it  another wilp or Clan?  A    'Wiik'aax wilp is Wolf, from the Wolf people.  Q    So you were on the hunting territory of the Wolf people?  A    Yes.  Q    I have a few questions to ask about your husbands.   I  understand that Simon Wright was your first husband,  is  that correct?  A    Yes.  Q    Did he live in Hazelton?  A    He originated from Kisgagas but he lived in Gitanmaax.  Q    Did he move to Gitanmaax when you were married or had he  moved there before?  A    Yes, before we were married.  THE INTERPRETER:  He was previously married to another person  before Jessie married him.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q Was his previous wife someone who lived in Gitanmaax?  A No, his wife was from Port Essington, down the coast.  Q    Wasn't it unusual for people to move from one village to  another when you were a little girl?  A    No, it wasn't. They moved from one village to another.  Q    Simon Wright was a Wolf,  is that correct?  A    His uncle was 'Wiik'aax and he later became 'Wiik'aax.  Q    Is that the house that Neil Sterritt Senior is now the  chief of?  A    Yes.  Q    You had two children, Martha and Cora,  from that first  marriage who are still alive? 100  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr . Plant  A   I have three children, Martha, Cora and Annie.  Q   Is Annie still alive?  A   No, she is dead.  Q   Martha, has she been known as Martha Ridgedale and  Martha Fargey?  A   Just lately she became Mrs. Ridgedale.  Q   Was she Mrs. Fargey before that?  A   Yes, she used the name Fargey before that.  Q   Is she the person who now holds the name of A'yawasxw?  Q   Your daughter, Cora Gray, is now Axti'am?  A   Yes.  Q   After you were married to Simon Wright I understand you  married Thomas Danes, is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   Did you have any children of that marriage?  A   One son, Thomas.  Q   Did Thomas Danes, the man you married, did he eventually  become Gyedimgaldo'o?  Was he Gyedimgaldo'o at one  point?  A   No, it is different p'tekt. A different clan.  Q   Was he also a member of the Wolf Clan?  A   No, he was Fireweed.  Q   Did he come from Gitanmaax?  A   Yes.  Q   After your marriage to Thomas Danes you were married to  Gus Walstrom,  is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   What was his Clan?  p'tekt?  A   He was white man.  Q   Was he adopted into any wilp?  A   No.  Q   When you were married to Mr. Walstrom you had two  children, Donald and Charlotte?  A   Yes.  Q   And Charlotte is now Biiniks?  A   Yes.  Q   And you later married Charlie Sterritt, is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   Was he Gitksan?  A   Yes.  Q   What Clan?  THE INTERPRETER:  Pardon?  MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry, I interrupted Jessie.  THE INTERPRETER:  He is Gitksan and he is Lax Seel.  MR. PLANT:   Frog?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes. 101  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q Is he related to Neil Sterritt Senior?  A It's Neil Sterritt Senior's father.  Q Was Charlie Sterritt a chief?  A Yes.  Q What wilp?  A Haaxw.  His name is Haaxw and he belongs to Haaxw.  MR. PLANT:  Do you know if that is a Plaintiff?  MR. RUSH:  I can't tell you. I can't remember.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is there someone who holds that name now?  A   Charlie Oldson holds the name now.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   One of the things that you talked about, one of the  areas that Mr. Rush was asking questions on the first  day that we met concerned ownership.  Do you want that translated? I just want to direct  your mind to that.  A   Yes.  Q   If I could summarize your evidence I think you said that  there are things that belong to the name, there are  things that belong to the name 'Wiigoob'l or the name  Gyedimgaldo'o, that they belong to the whole house?  A   Yes.  Q   That would be regalia, like the blanket or the rattle?  A   Yes.  Q   What about things like rifles and clothing,  in the old  days who would own that?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: They were personal, anything that is personal  it's theirs and they can do -- they can give it away or  keep it.  They can do what they want with it,  they're  not traditional belongings.  Q   So it is only the traditional belongings that belong to  the house as a whole?  A   Yes.  Q   I take it that includes territory?  A   Yes.  Q   Jessie, are you a registered Indian under The Indian  Act?  A   I was until I married Mr. Sterritt.  But I have 102  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr . Plant  re-applied for my status.  Q   So you're waiting to hear what will happen?  A   Yes.  Q   Is your daughter Charlotte a registered Indian?  A   When she married Charlie all her children become  Non-Status.  Just the two youngest, Don and  Charlotte.  Q   I understood that your evidence was that Charlie  Sterritt was himself Gitksan; how would it be that you  would lose your status?  A   Mr. Sterritt was enfranchised and was non-status.  Q   Mr. Sterritt was, I'm sorry, I didn't?  MR. RUSH: Enfranchised.  THE INTERPRETER:  He became enfranchised.  MR. PLANT:  Oh, I understand the word.  THE INTERPRETER:  She made a comment that they gave up their  status because they wanted a better education for their  children.  MR. PLANT:  When you use the word "they", is she referring to  herself?  THE INTERPRETER:  She was talking about Mr. Sterritt.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Now, Jessie, I am going to try and ask some questions  based on the questions that Stuart asked you this  morning but I don't have very good notes of that yet so  my questions may be a bit disorganized so please be  patient.  You remember looking at the photograph which you  identified as a photograph of the blanket belonging to  Biiniks?  A   Yes.  Q   You said that the blanket was in the museum?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you mean the museum at ' Ksan?  A   Yes.  Q   Is the blanket of Gyedimgaldo'o also in the museum at  'Ksan?  A   Yes.  Gyedimgaldo'o's amhalayt is also in the museum.  Q   At 'Ksan?  A   At 'Ksan.  Q   But there is a rattle which Sara Marshall has?  A   Yes.  Q   Is Sara Marshall Gitksan?  A   Yes.  Q   Does she have a Gitksan name, do you know?  A   She has an Indian name, yes, a Gitksan name. 103  STERRITT, J.  Cross-EX  Mr. Plant  THE INTERPRETER:   She can't recall it right now.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q    Is she a chief?  A    She says she is.  THE INTERPRETER:   Sara says she is.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q    Is it a matter of opinion whether she is a chief or not?  A    She does have a name but it is not a really big name.  Q    Do you know the wilp that she is a member of?  Or chief  of?  A    She is from the House of Lutkuts' iiwus.  Q    I can't remember if that is Lax Seel or Laxs Gibuu, is  it Wolf or Frog?  MR. RUSH:   Lax Seel .  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Her father was Tommy Muldoe?  A    Yes, her father was Tommy Muldoe.  Q    Was Tommy Muldoe's father Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes.  Q    Did Tommy obtain the rattle from his father?  A    Yes, it was just in his safekeeping, it was never given  to him. Our law says that it should be returned to the  right place.  Q    Is that in this case Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes.  Q    Who is now Sylvester Green?  A    Yes.  Q    Do you remember when Sylvester Green became  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Two or three years when Tommy Danes died.  Q    I believe that you said that you did not know of a  separate totem pole for Xskiigimlaxha; do I have that  right?  A    No, he doesn't have one.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: They just have the one pole, Xskiigimlaxha  and  Gyedimgaldo'o,  Biiniks.  Q    Is there an Indian name or Gitksan name for the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o  which is Sanoos?  A    The name Sanoos belongs to the House of Nikat'een.  Q    So it is a house in the -- it is a name in the House of  Nikat'een, and I can't remember if you told me whether 104  STERRITT, J.  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  Nikat' een was in the Frog Clan or Wolf Clan?  A   Frog.  Q   Do you remember in the old days whether there was a pole  in Gitanmaax belonging to Spookx?  A  They have a pole and one of the figures is the bear.  They have a pole up at the totem park.  It was one of  the poles that were moved from up here to the totem  park.  Q   When you say "up here" you're referring to the pole???  where the House of Gyedimgaldo'o and the House of  'Wi igoob'1 was ?  A  Yes.  Q   And when you say totem park you mean ' Ksan?  THE INTERPRETER:  No.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Where is the totem park?  A  Up at the baseball grounds.  Q   Yes?  A  Between here and the hospital.  Q  Yes.  A little while ago you told me that you thought  that Thomas Wright may be the person who now has the  name Guuhadxw?  THE INTERPRETER: She's not too sure about that. She thinks  that's who has the name.  Again, she's not sure.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is Thomas Wright the person who sang the breath song  when Mr. Pearkes, the Lieutenant-Governor, was here?  A   Yes, he was the one -- there was two of them, Simon  Morrison and Thomas Wright sang the song at that time.  Q   Mr. Rush asked you some questions about the time when  the feast was banned, and he also asked you some  questions about white man's law that prevented white man  or white people from going on to the Indian reserve; do  you remember those questions?  A  Yes.  Q   Were you alive when this was happening?  A  Yes. It wasn't too long ago.  Q   Well,  approximately how long ago was it?  A   In the....  THE INTERPRETER:  She thinks it was in the area of the  twenties.  THE WITNESS:   (In English) Not too sure.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Do you know why the white man passed that law? 105  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  She doesn't know the reason, that was their  law.  MR. PLANT:  It was white man's law?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Stuart asked you some questions about fishing sites, and  I think you remember talking about fishing sites of  'Wiigoob'l and Gyedimgaldo'o being in Hagwilget Canyon?  A   Yes.  Q   Do I understand correctly that anyone in the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o could fish at the sites of 'Wiigoob'l and  Gyedimgaldo'o?  THE INTERPRETER:  Would you re-phrase that?  MR. PLANT:  I will ask that again.  Q   Could someone who is a member of the House of 'Wiigoob'l  fish at the fishing sites belonging to Gyedimgaldo'o  without asking permission?  A   No, they don't have to,  it belongs to them, they're  house members.  Q   I take it the same would be true the other way, that is  to say, from someone from the House of Gyedimgaldo'o  could fish in the fishing sites of 'Wiigoob'l without  asking permission?  A   Yes, it would be the same.  Q   Could someone who was a member of the house in the Wolf  Clan fish at a fishing site belonging to 'Wiigoob'l  without asking permission?  A   They have to get permission from the head of the house.  Q   What if someone from Moricetown wanted to fish at the  fishing site of 'Wiigoob'l or Gyedimgaldo'o, would they  also have to ask permission?  A   Yes, they have to ask permission.  Q   Would Biiniks have to ask permission?  A   No.  Q   Xskiigimlaxha?  A   No.  Q   Would a member of the Frog Clan from Kispiox have to ask  permission?  A   They have to ask permission.  Q   Would someone from any Clan who came from another  village who is Gitksan, would they have to ask  permission?  A   They have to ask permission.  Q   What about Nikat'een, would he have to ask permission? 105  STERRITT, J.  Cross-Ex  Mr . Plant  A    Yes, he'll have to ask permission.  Q    What is the difference between the House of 'Wiigoob'l  and the House of Gyedimgaldo'o, or is there any  difference?  A    There is no difference.  Q    Would it be correct to say that Gyedimgaldo'o  is a chief  in the House of 'Wiigoob'l?  Or is it the other way  around?  THE INTERPRETER:  Will you ask your question again?  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Would I be correct to say that Gyedimgaldo'o is a chief  in the wilp of 'Wiigoob'l?  A    Yes, it would be correct to say that.  Q    And it would also be correct to say 'Wiigoob'l is a  chief in the wilp of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes, it would be correct to say that.  Q    You spoke about a fishing site that belongs to  Gyedimgaldo'o that is located where Mission Creek runs  into the Bulkley River, and I want to know how long that  fishing site has belonged to Gyedimgaldo'o?   If you can  remember or if you know?  A    As far as I can remember it's always been his.  Q    Is that where people from the House of 'Wiigoob'l and  also from the House of Gyedimgaldo'o went to fish when  the rock was blasted in Hagwilget Canyon or had the  people -- I'm sorry -- that's all.  Bad habit!  A    It's always been one of his fishing sites.  Q    One of the hunting territories  that Mr. Rush asked you  about is a place called Amsumlaan.  A    Yes.  Q    And I think you said that it was not a very big place  and just one man works it?  A    Yes, just one man works it.  Q    Who is that man?  A    Johnny Wilson has gone there.  THE INTERPRETER:  She's not     THE WITNESS:  He doesn't use it any more because since then  he is registered Awiijii.  Ansumlaan has been turned  over to Gyedimgaldo'o, Sylvester Green.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Do you know if anyone in Gyedimgaldo'o uses the land?  Does Sylvester Green use the land?  THE INTERPRETER:  She doesn't know if he is using it right  now. 107  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   You don't know if anyone is using it?  A   No.  Q   Did you say that the territory was turned over to  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A   Yes.  Johnny Wilson registered before and now he has  turned it over to Sylvester Green. Because white man's  law says you can't hold two trapping grounds.  Q   Is it now registered in the name of Sylvester Green so  far as you know?  A   Yes.  Q   Was there a feast when that happened?  When Johnny  Wilson turned the ground over or had it re-registered in  Sylvester Green's name?  A   It wasn't done in a feast but when Johnny was told that  he couldn't hold two trap lines he gave it to Sylvester.  At some later date this could be announced in the feast  hall.  Q   Do you remember when Johnny Wilson turned this land over  to Sylvester Green?  A   Just about a year ago.  Q   I can't remember what wilp Johnny Wilson belongs to?  A   Our house.  Q   When you say "our house" do you say, you mean   THE INTERPRETER: Jessie is saying 'Wiigoob'l.  MR. PLANT:  'Wiigoob'l, yes.  THE WITNESS: And Gyedimgaldo'o's house, Johnny....  THE INTERPRETER: She calls Johnny her son, she raised him.     OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   If Sylvester Green were here today would he be speaking  on behalf of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A   If he were here and he was capable he would be talking  for Gyedimgaldo'o because he very young and perhaps  doesn't know as much as I do.  Q   Jessie, you know that Gyedimgaldo'o is a Plaintiff in  this lawsuit which the hereditary chiefs have commenced  against  the Government of B.C.?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, she wasn't aware that he was one of the  Plaintiffs.  MR. RUSH: Maybe re-phrase it.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Do you know that Gyedimgaldo'o was someone who had along 108  STERRITT, J.  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  with some of the other hereditary chiefs started a  lawsuit against the government?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, she's aware of it.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Do you know -- you know that since he is a chief he  represents all the members of the House of  A   Yes, that's only proper that he should.  Q   Do you know how the decision was made by the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o to start the lawsuit?  A   It was the decision of the house to be part of what is  taking place.  Q   Was there a meeting of the house to make the decision?  A   There hasn't been a meeting where all the members are  present because they look to Sylvester as the leader and  he just hasn't seemed that interested in it.  Q   I'm sorry, I didn't catch the last part of that. You  said doesn't seem that interested in it?  THE INTERPRETER: Sylvester Green is not that interested in  the land claims.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   So far as you are aware, Jessie, you never went to a  meeting of the house to make a decision to start the  court case?  A   It's been discussed within my family but Sylvester was  never present.  Q   Was it your family then that made the decision on behalf  of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A   Yes.  Q   Who do you mean when you say your family?  A    (In English) Cora, Martha, Charlie, Johnny.  THE INTERPRETER: She's referring to her immediate family, her  daughters and Johnny wilson.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Can you make a rough guess how many people there are in  that House of 'Wiigoob'l?  A   There are many of us.  (In English) Cora wrote the names down. There's a  list  of names here.  THE INTERPRETER: Quite a long list. Do you want to look at  it or did you want me to read it out?  MR. PLANT: Before we do that, perhaps we can have what  lawyers call a discussion off the record, and tell me if  you have a problem with that list? 109  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr . Plant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. PLANT:  Back on the record.  Q   Jessie, who prepared that list?  A   I asked Cora to write the names down.  Q   Do you know how she prepared the list? Do you know what  she did to prepare it?  A   The names came from me.  Q   You gave her the names?  THE INTERPRETER:  There were some names that she couldn't  remember but Cora was able to remember.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   So the list was prepared from your knowledge and from  Cora's knowledge?  A   Yes. The idea of having a list has been in process for  a long time. We have wanted to do it for a long time.  Q   It is something you have thought about for a long time?  A   Yes.  Q   When did you prepare that list?  A   I asked her to do this last night.  MR. PLANT:  Let's mark the list as Exhibit ten, and I don't  need the original of it but I would like a copy.  MR. RUSH: Again for the sake of the record, so long as it is  understood that this list does not necessarily represent  an exhaustive list of the members of the House of  'Wiigoob'l or Gyedimgaldo'o.  Mr. Plant: We have Mrs. Sterritt's evidence of what it is and  I'm quite prepared to accept the clarification you put  on it, but it goes without saying that there are rules  of best evidence and all that sort of thing.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER: She thinks this is a fairly complete list.  MR. PLANT:  Is that word "varied" or "fairly"?  THE INTERPRETER:  Fairly.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   Can you think of people right now who should be on that  list and aren't?  A   No.  Q   Are the people who are on the list   THE INTERPRETER:  There is a name here, Bessie Nelson, and  she just wasn't too sure about the grandchildren. 110  STERRITT, J.  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Bessie may have some grandchildren that you don't know  about?  A   That's right, they live in Rupert.  Q   Are there other people on that list that live outside of  Gitanmaax?  A   Yes, there are other people.  MR. PLANT:  Did she give a name there, Beatrice?  THE INTERPRETER:  Beatrice, her granddaughter, lives on  Vancouver Island. Beatrice DeBoyd(?) and her children  live away from the area, and Donald, her son, lives in  Quesnel, Donald Walstrom. Martha's son lives -- he is a  constable in the police force, he is away from the area.  MR. PLANT:  That is very helpful.  I don't need an exhaustive  list of these people.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  Hazel lives in Vancouver.  And her children.  MR. PLANT:  Let's see if we can put a stamp on that.   EXHIBIT NO. 10 - Handwritten list of the names of  members of House of 'Wiigoob'l and  House of Gyedimgaldo'o.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  THE INTERPRETER:  You can use that list but she thinks maybe  her daughter could make another one, but she wants all  those names on because, on account of the territory,  these are people that can use the territories.  MR. PLANT:  All right.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. PLANT:  Let's try and re-convene here tomorrow morning at  9.15 and do our very best to try and finish tomorrow  morning.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you very much.    PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED  AT 4.00 p.m.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  Veronica Harper (Ms)  Official Court Reporter  VH/lre-Jan.  26/86 B.C.S.R.A.  #263 Ill  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  VIOLET SMITH,  Gitksan Interpreter,  Previously Sworn  JESSIE STERRITT  Witness   called   on  behalf   of  the Plaintiffs, previously  Sworn, testifies, as follows:   UPON COMMENCING AT 9.15 a.m.,  22 JANUARY,  1986    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. RUSH:  This is a continuation of the Commission Evidence  of 'Wiigoob'l, Jessie Sterritt.  It is January 22nd and  we are continuing with the Cross-Examination.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT  (CONTINUED)  Q   Mrs. Sterritt,  I have a couple of questions about the  relationship between some of the present chiefs.  Sylvester Green is Gyedimgaldo'o now and I understand  that he took that title from or after Thomas Danes  Senior,  is that correct?  A   Yes, after Thomas Danes died.  Q   What was the relationship  or what is -- excuse me, what  was Sylvester Green's relationship to Thomas Danes  Senior?  A   They're both members of the same house.  Q   Are they blood relatives?  A   They're blood relatives.  THE INTERPRETER:   She doesn't know how far back it goes.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   Does she know if Thomas Danes was Sylvester Green's  uncle?  A   According to our culture, yes.  Q   Does she know if that was the relationship though in  this case?  Do you know that in this case?  THE INTERPRETER:   What do you mean?  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   I understood you to say "according  to our culture", that  means that's the way the culture   THE INTERPRETER?   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  Those are the laws of the culture? 112  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR.  PLANT: Q  want to know, Jessie, if you can say whether in this  case Sylvester Green is in fact Thomas Danes' nephew?  A    Yes, this is what it is in our culture.  Q    Jessie, do you know what Johnny Wilson's relationship  is to Daniel Skawil?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:   Johnny's mother and my mother are sisters.  (In English) Johnny's grandmother and my mother's  sisters.  Her name was Lucy Morrison, her Indian name was  Noxs To'o, and when Johnny was one year old his mother  died and I took him and raised him, I consider him my  son.  According to your culture, like his mother and my  mother were cousins. My mother and Johnny's mother  were cousins.  To answer your question, Johnny and Daniel Skawil  are from the same house and all the members of that  house are close.  A    It's the same, we're both members of the house and I  him, Daniel Skawil, my uncle.  Q    What is your relationship to Albert Brown?  A    It would be the same.  Q    Is he related in the sense that he is the brother of  your mother or something like that? Can you define the  relationship that way?  A    I don' t know.  Q    What you know, that you are in the same house?  A    Yes.  Q    Do you know what the relationship  is between Charlotte  Sullivan and Philip Morrison?  A    They're cousins.  Q    Now, I would like you to look at the map, the map that  Daniel Skawil gave to you; did you bring that map with  you today?  A    (In English) No I didn't.  MR. RUSH: I am showing the copy of the map to the Witness  MR. PLANT: The copy that you have given to Mrs. Sterritt is  the copy we marked as Exhibit seven?  Mr. RUSH: Correct. 113  STERRITT,  Cross-EX  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Do I understand correctly that this map shows the  territory of which we spoke yesterday and shows the  Awiijii-Bowser Lake territory?  A   Yes.  MR. RUSH: Excuse me, I should point out that her evidence  yesterday,  it wasn't all the territory.  MR. PLANT:  I want to ask some questions to try to get to  that.  Q   First, is this the territory which Biiniks obtained in  the peace settlement?  A   Yes.  Q   Does that map, which is Exhibit seven, show all of the  territory which Biiniks obtained in the peace  settlement?  A   I am not sure if that is all the territory but this is  the map he gave me.  Q   This is the map that Daniel Skawil gave you?  A   Yes, and he said that this was the map of his territory.  Q   Daniel Skawil said to you that this map, which is  Exhibit seven,  is a map of his territory?  A   Yes, that is what he said.  Q   Before the peace settlement do you know who owned that  territory?  A   Somebody from the Stikine area.  Q   Not Gitksan?  A   No. Over from the Stikine River area, so he wouldn't  be Gitksan.  Q   Do you know if the peace settlement happened when Daniel  Skawil was alive?  A   Yes.  Q   Daniel Skawil was alive at the time of the peace  settlement?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know of any other occasions when territory passed  from one people to another?  A   That happened  regarding the fishing site up at the  canyon, that was a settlement.  Q   Whose fishing site?  A   Gyedimgaldo'o's  fishing site.  Q   Is this the one on the other side? The one on the other  side of Hagwilget Canyon?  A   Yes.  Q   You say that fishing site was acquired in a settlement  of some sort?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN 114  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  THE WITNESS:  The fishing site had originally belonged to  the Giskaast people, and one Lax Seel people were  fishing there and he was pulled in by the salmon, and  it is one of our laws that we compensate in some way  for that life, and that is why that fishing site was  given to Gyedimgaldo'o'.  Q   It was given to Gyedimgaldo'o' by the Giskaast people?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know when that happened?  A   No.  It was before I was born.  Q   Can you think of any other occasions when territory  passed from one people to another?  A   No.  Q   Looking again at the map which you have got there,  which is Exhibit seven, do you know if Daniel Skawil  had a trap line in this territory?  A   He trapped there most of his life until he was unable  to go out due to old age.  Q   Do you know if he registered  the trap line with the  government?  A   Yes, he registered and that was how they acquired the  map.  Q   Can you tell me a little bit more about how they  acquired the map? Do you know if Daniel himself drew  this map?  THE INTERPRETER:  She' s not sure but she thinks maybe Dan  drew the map.  MR. PLANT:  Dan Skawil?  THE INTERPRETER:   Skawil.  THE WITNESS:  He has had this map in his possession for a  long time and that is why it's so tattered.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   And you have had this map for a long time also?  A    (In English) Yes,  since in the forties.  It was given to me in about the nineteen forties.  It was when he was very old that he passed it on to  me.  Q   Did anyone besides Daniel Skawil trap in this  territory?  A   Peter Morrison, now deceased.  Martha Brown and her  husband, Tommy Danes. And Philip Morrison.  Q   What is the house or what was the house of peter  Morrison?  A   It is from our house, he' s. . . .  Q   Is that House of 'Wiigoob'l?  A   Gyedimgaldo'o.   Peter was Johnny Wilson's uncle.  Q   Was Peter Morrison a chief?  A   He has the name but it's not one of the higher names.  Q   Is Martha Brown still alive? 115  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  A Yes, she is still alive.  She is now Martha Ridgedale.  Q Is she Xhliimlaxha from Glen Vowell?  A No, that is a different Martha Brown.  Q What is the house of Martha Brown?  THE INTERPRETER:  Which one, her daughter?  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    The Martha Brown who hunted or trapped on this territory  shown on this map of Daniel Skawil?  A    That is my oldest daughter.  Q    You said that James Morrison had hunted on this  territory,  is he Peter Morrison's son?  THE INTERPRETER:  James Morrison, did you say.  MR. PLANT:  I think that was the last name?  THE INTERPRETER:  It was Peter Morrison.  BY MR. PLANT  Q      Was there a James Morrison also that hunted on that  territory?  A    No.  Q    Jessie, of all the people in the House of 'Wiigoob'l,  who knows the most about the old ways and the territory?  A    I'm the oldest in the house and I'm the one that has the  knowledge.  Q    Is that same true of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes.  Q    Is the same true of the House of Xskiigimlaxha?  A    Yes, it is the same.  Q    Now, was Daniel Skawil's brother Nagun?  A    Yes.  Q    Was he also known as Johnson Nagun?  A    I can't remember his English name at all.  Q    Was he Simon Gunnanoot's father?  A    Yes.  Q    Do you know what wilp Nagun was a member of?  A    He's in our house, he's Daniel Skawil's brother.  Q    Do you know where Nagun hunted?  THE INTERPRETER:  What was your question again?  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q    Do you know where Nagun hunted?  Simon Gunnanoot's  father?  A    In the territory we're talking about.  Q    The territory on the map that you're looking at?  A    Yes.  MR. RUSH:  Exhibit seven.  MR.  PLANT:   Yes. 116  STERRITT, J.  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  Q   Do you recall if there was ever trouble between Daniel  Skawil and Simon Gunnanoot over the use of the  territory?  A   No,  I don' t.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  No, Simon hunted on the territory through his  father being a member of the house.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   Did Simon become Geel?  A   Yes, he became Geel after he was acquitted.  Q   What Clan is Geel?  A   Fireweed.  Q   Do you know if Simon Gunnanoot hunted in the territory,  Exhibit seven, throughout his life?  A   Yes, he hunted there most of his life and then after he  was acquitted he never used the territory.  After his  father died he didn't use the territory.  Q   Now, I would like to look at the map which we looked at  for the first time yesterday, which is the map that we  are going to mark as Exhibit eight when the map is  prepared, with all the markings of the original on it.  Do you have a copy of that today?  MR. RUSH: No. It's over at the photocopier's.  MR. PLANT: Maybe you could hand that copy to Jessie?  MR.  RUSH:  Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q       Do you remember looking at a map similar to that  yesterday, Jessie?  A       Yes.  Q       And the map that you looked at yesterday was a little  different because there was some red marks on it, is  that right?  A       Yes.  Q       Did you make that map?  A       No.  Q       Do you know who made it?  A       It was made by the people of the Tribal Council.  Q       Do you know why the Tribal Council or who at the Tribal  Council made it?  A       No, I don't. I don't know the names of the workers  there.  Q       How did you get a copy of that map?  A       Johnny Wilson got it. 117  STERRITT,  Cross-EX  Mr. Plant  Q    Johnny Wilson gave it to you?  A    Yes, he gave it to me to keep for him.  Q    When did that happen?  A    Sometime last year, I can't remember whether it was in  the fall or in the spring.  Q    There is a dark line that runs around, close to the edge  of that map, all the way around it, do you see that?  A    Yes.  Q    Do you know what that line is supposed to be or  represents?  A    I cannot -- I don't know anything about maps so I cannot  answer that.  Q    Did Johnny Wilson ever tell you what that map was  supposed to show?  A    He pointed out to me the different areas he is familiar  with. My oldest daughter, Martha, is more knowledgeable  because she spent a lot of her working time on this  area.  Q    Have you personally spent much time in that area around  Bowser Lake?  THE INTERPRETER:  I beg your pardon?  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Have you, Jessie, spent much time in that area?  A    I went there when I was 16 years old, I went with my  uncle, Daniel Skawil, and my auntie Lucy.  Q    Is that Nox To'o?  A    Nox To'o, yes.  Q    Was that the last time you went to that area?  A    That was the first and only time I went on the area and,  last summer, was the first time I went back.  Q    Who did you go back with?  A    Went with my daughters, Cora and Charlotte, and Johnny  Wilson.  Q    When you say you went to the territory, the place you  went was the place where Johnny traps and hunts, is that  right?  A    Yes, in the area of Awiijii.  That was where we stay  when we are on the territories, at Awiijii, when I was  young.  Q    Is there a building there of some kind?  A    Yes, there was a cabin on there.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  Johnny Wilson has built a cabin there since to 118  STERRITT, J.  Cross-Ex  Mr . Plant  replace the old one.  Q   So there is a cabin there today?  A   Yes,  it's at Skawil Creek.  Q   Do you know if there are any other buildings in that  area?  A  No, there is just the one.  The old ones have all been  just in ruins now.  Q  Yesterday we looked at that map, there was some red  lines on it which you said were -- showed the places  where logging had been going on, do you remember seeing  those red lines?  A  Yes.  Q   Did you make those red lines on the map?  A  No, Johnny put them in. He did it just to show me where  the logging was going on.  Q  Have you seen the logging, Jessie? Have you seen the  logging or the areas being logged?  A  Yes.  Q   You saw them last summer?  A  Yes.  Q   Do you know when the logging started?  A  No,  I can't say.  Q   Has Johnny Wilson been using this property for a long  time?  A   This is the first time that he has trapped on it quite  extensively this year.  This winter.  Q   Was anyone using the property, trapping on the property  before Johnny?  A  Not from our house but we heard that there was poaching  going on. There is a highway going through it so it is  quite accessible to other people.  The logging is right  on our territory.  Q   You don't know when the logging started?  A  No, I don't.  But they are logging it off quite fast.  Q   Do you have any idea whether it began last year or ten  years ago?  A   I don't think it's that long.  Q   Apart from the logging, have white people or the  government done anything else in this territory that you  know  about that interferes with your rights?  A  There's a gas station not too far from Bell one?? and a  restaurant.   There's also maintenance crew there.  Q   Is that the highway's maintenance crew?  A  Yes,  that is what I have been told.  Q  Have  you seen those places yourself?  A  Yes,  we went in and had our coffee there.  Q   Is this the highway to Stewart? 119  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  A   No, it isn't.  It's a different road.  Q   Do you have any idea how long that road has been there?  A   I can't give you when it was built but it's not too long  ago. David Gunnanoot may be aware of the exact year it  was built. There is a fork at Meziaden where the road  goes to Stewart and then the road through our territory  goes north.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Jessie, what do you see on the map that is interesting?  THE INTERPRETER: She was trying to....she was pointing out  to me where the cabin is located at Skawil Creek.  MR. RUSH:  Where is she saying it is?  THE INTERPRETER:  Pardon?  MR. RUSH:  What did she just say then?  THE INTERPRETER:  She was just looking at the area of Skawil  Creek where the cabin was located, she was pointing it  out to me.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is that location of the cabin the same place where the  cabin was a long time ago, the original cabin?  A   No, it's not in the same area, it's closer to the creek.  Q   You know where the old cabin was?  A   Not too far away.  Q   A mile or so or less?  A   About two miles.  Q   Any members of the house work for logging companies that  you know of, Jessie?  THE INTERPRETER: Are you referring to the logging going on in  the area?  MR. PLANT: No, just generally.  THE  INTERPRETER:  Any?  MR.  PLANT: Any logging?  THE INTERPRETER: You're referring to now?  MR.  PLANT :  Now.  THE WITNESS:  No, not now.  Some of them have worked at the  sawmill.  MR.  PLANT:  In the past?  THE INTERPRETER:   In the past.  THE WITNESS:  Yes, in this area.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   In Hazelton?  A   South Hazelton.  My grandson works at South Hazelton.  Q   At a sawmill? 120  STERRITT,  Cross-EX  Mr . Plant  A   Yes. He is now being transferred to Kitwanga.  Q   TO work at the sawmill?  A   Yes.  MR. PLANT: I think I've asked all the questions I will ask on  that map, so thank you.  MR. RUSH: Thank you, Jessie.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Jessie, yesterday I believe you spoke about the  territory of your house near Glen Vowel1, do you recall  that?  A   Yes.  Q   Whose territory is that?  A   Gyedimgaldo'o traps there. Albert Brown used it, he was  -- close to where he was living in Glen Vowell at the  time.  Q   Was he the last person to use it?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you remember how long ago that was?  A   He used it until he died.  Q   And when was that?  A   I can' t remember the year.  Q   Was it a long time ago?  A   I can' t remember the year.  Q   Does anyone from your house or from the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o use this territory now?  A   No. We hear again that there's poaching on it.  Q   Do you know who does the poaching?  A   The man that I know of that used to use it is now  deceased, James Woods. I don't know if anybody's using  it now but it is pretty well logged off.  Q   Was James Woods a Gitksan?  A   Yes.  Q   And what wilp did he belong to?  A   Fireweed.  Q   Was he a member of the house also?  A   I assume he was using it because he was married to  Albert Brown's sister. I was only one old enough to use  it but because I don't trap then there was really  nobody, my children weren't old enough to go out there.  Q   I think you said a minute ago that you thought James  Woods was poaching, do you say that because he did not  have your permission to trap or hunt on the territory?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: I said that he was poaching and because he used 121  STERRITT,  J.  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  it after his wife died.  Q    So his right to use it ended when his wife died?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, that's a confusion.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: Albert, while he was alive, he told me that if I  ever wanted to trap I can go out there but, because I  don't trap, when Albert was old it really known all the  house members used it.  Q    So James Woods used it though later?  A    As I stated earlier he was married to Albert's sister.  (In English) Albert married James Woods' sister.  THE INTERPRETER:  Oh, Albert was married to James Woods'  sister -- is that right?  THE WITNESS:   (In English)  Yes.  I assume that is why he was using the territory  because nobody from our house was using it.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Was he from your house then?  A    No.  Q    Did he have your permission to use it?  A    No.  Q    Should he have asked for your permission?  A    Yes, he is supposed to ask for our permission.  Q    Do you know of anyone else who trapped or hunted on that  territory besides James Woods?  A    No I don't.  Q    Do you know when that territory was logged?  A    I just notice lately that there are no trees there.  Just up on the road to Kispiox, you can see it from the  road.  Q    You can see this territory?  A    Yes, it has been logged off.  Q    This has happened in the last few years?  A    Yes, just lately.  Q    Do you know where on the road to Kispiox this territory  is?  A    It is on the other side of Glen Vowell.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: One of the mountains is named Gyedimgaldo'o  Mountain. You can see it from the road here. And the  next mountain belongs to Lutkuts'iiwus, Josiah Campbell.  Q    Is it between Glen Vowell and Kispiox? 122  STERRITT, J.  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  A   Yes.  Q   Which side of the Skeena is it?  A   On the other side of the Skeena from here.  Q   You spoke yesterday of a territory in the Nass which  you said I believe was one of your territories; do you  remember speaking of that?  A   I assume you're referring to Gyedimgaldo'o's trap line?  THE INTERPRETER:  Pardon me - - 'Wiigoob'l' s trap line.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q       Is that the same territory as the territory Biiniks  obtained in the peace settlement or is that another  territory?  A       It's a different territory, I haven't been there.  (In English)  Somewhere around the Nass. Closer to  the Nass River.  THE INTERPRETER: It is closer to the Nass River.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q       You have not been there?  A       No.  Q       You're not sure if anyone goes there now from your  house?  A       Not now. Jonathan Brown used it after his father died.  After Jonathan died I am not aware that anybody's using  it.  Q       Do you know when Jonathan died?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: Not too long ago he died.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   What was Jonathan's last name? His English name?  A   Brown.  Q   Do you know what goes on at that territory now?  A   No.  Q   Do you know how 'Wiigoob'l acquired the territory?  A   I cannot say how it was obtained but it has been in our  house as far as anybody remembers.  Q   I want to turn now to the fishing territory at Seely  Lake; you remember that yesterday you said that Mr. Gow  acquired this territory, he registered it in some way in  1912?  A   Yes. I can't say, give you the date of when he  registered but it was at the time that the railroad met  there.  The construction. 123  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  Q    I recall yesterday you indicated that you learned about  this because you heard the elders talking about it?  A    Yes.  Q    Was that right around the time when Mr. Gow had  registered the land, do you know?  A    The elders were talking about it at the time that they  just heard it and there was, because of lack of  communication or language differences, they were unable  to do anything about it.  Q    I am not sure I understand the last part of that answer.  You mean the elders did not speak English?  A    No, they didn't speak English. They use interpreter  whenever they had to have any dealings with the white  people.  Q    Did James White speak English?  A    Very little.  Q    So the elders knew about this problem with Mr. Gow but  you say they did nothing about it?  A    No, they didn't do anything about it because they just,  for one thing, they didn't know the ways of the white  people.  Q    Did they speak to the Indian agent about it?  A    I cannot say.  Q    Do you know if they spoke to Mr. Gow about it?  A    Again,  I can't answer that.  Q    Did Mr. Gow build anything else on this land?  A    I can't remember.  No, I can't say, it's just lately  that the road has been built there.  There was just a  wagon road there.  Q    You don't remember if Mr. Gow built a cabin on the lake  or   A    No, I don' t.  Q    Do you know who owns that land now?  MR. RUSH:  Excuse me, what do you mean by "own" here?  MR. PLANT:  I'll re-phrase that question.  Q    Do you know if that land is registered  in the name of  the government or white people?  A    There is a cabin at the western end of the lake that was  built by Dr. Whiting, who was the administrator at the  Wrinch Memorial.  Q    Do you remember when that cabin was built?  A    I remember it was built while I was still working up at  the hospital.  Q    How long ago was that?  A    I worked at the hospital for 15 years,  I retired in  1966.  That cabin was built before '66.  Q    Jessie, have you ever walked on the Grease Trail to the 124  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  Nass?  A   No, I didn't.  Q   When you were young did you trade berries for ooligan or  is that something that happened before you were born?  A   No, I don't -- I never went myself but the trading with  the berries, this goes on.  Q   It goes on now?  A   Yes.  Q   And it went on when you were a little girl?  THE INTERPRETER:  Pardon?  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Did it also go on when you were a little girl?  A   Yes.  Q   That is, trading berries for ooligan with the people of  the Nass?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you use ooligan?  MR. RUSH:  You mean ooligan grease?  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Ooligan grease?  A   Yes.  Q   You spoke yesterday about trading along the Skeena with  people who came in Haida canoes; is that something that  happened when you were alive?  A   Yes, I remember them.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  My mother and I, we would hear them coming up  the river and we would go down to the river's edge to  meet them. Just down below, over here.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   You're pointing in front of the house where we are at  right now?  A   Yes, where The Bay and the Cunningham  stores were  located.  Q   Did this happen before the river boats came or were the  river boats coming at this time?  A   During the spring when the river is low the canoes can  use it but it is only when the water is higher that the  river boats were able to come.  Q   So when the river boats couldn't come the canoes came?  A   Yes.  Q   Were the people in those canoes, were they Haida people 125  STERRITT, J.  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  or people from the Skeena and lower down?  A   I was too small to say whether they were Haida or the  coast people.  Q   Was this something that stopped when you were a little  girl?  A  The canoes stopped coming when the railway came.  Q   You spoke yesterday of using roots for medicine.  I  wanted to ask you whether you yourself had ever made any  of these medicines?  A  Yes, I made it. I've made it.  Q   Did you do this when you were a little girl?  A  No,  I did it when I was adult too.  Q   Did you use these medicines yourself?  A  Yes.  Q   When you were a little girl did you weave cedar bark  yourself?  A  No,  I never did.  Q   Was that something done by other people when you were a  little girl or had it stopped?  A   I've watched elderly women do that.  Q   When you were a little girl?  A  When I was a little girl.  Q   Do you remember Dr. Wrinch?  A   Yes, he was my doctor.  Q   He was the doctor in Hazelton for a long time, wasn't  he?  A  Yes.  Q   You remember him being the doctor when you were a little  girl?  A   Yes,  I went to school with his children.  Q  You spoke yesterday about trees that were marked to  blaze trails, do you remember speaking about that?  A  Yes.  Q  Have you ever seen these marks on trees yourself?  A  Yes, when I was on the trap line I would see them.  Q   Was that after your first marriage also?  A  Yes.  Q  You spoke also about masks, did you see those masks when  you were on the trap line?  A  Yes, I have seen them. It was done on the bark of the  tree.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. PLANT: We'll take a little break now, Jessie.  THE WITNESS:   (In English)  Very good.    SHORT RECESS 126  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Jessie, yesterday you were kind enough to give me a copy  of this list which we marked as Exhibit No. 10, and I've  got a copy and I can give it to you to have a look at  for a minute. That is the list which you and your  daughter drew, or prepared to set out the members of the  House of 'Wiigoob'l, is that correct?  A    Yes.  Q    I'm sorry, that was yes?  A    Yes.  MR. RUSH: I think it was not only the House of 'Wiigoob'l.  MR. PLANT: That is what I am asking about.  Q    Does that list include also members of the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes.  Q    Does it include also members or those people who belong  to the House of Biiniks?  A    Yes.  Q    Does it include also those people who belong to the  House of Xskiigimlaxha?  A    Yes.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  I would like to point out that this list is not  complete.  I do not know the names of some of the  grandchildren of Bessie Nelson.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   You said that yesterday,  that is the main concern you  have with that list, you're not sure who Bessie's  grandchildren are?  A   Yes.  Q   I am going to try and pronounce a few of the other names  and I just want to know if you know these people and if  you can tell me what Clan they belong to. First is  'Niigyap?  A   Wolf Clan.  Q   Does 'Niigyap live in Gitanmaax?  A   Yes, he originated from Kisgagas.  Q   Do you know how he came to Gitanmaax?  A   The village of Kisgagas it is still there but nobody  lives there, they all moved into Gitanmaax.  There was  too few of them.  Q   So they all left?  A   Yes.  Q   Some of them came to Gitanmaax? 127  STERRITT,  J.,  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  A    Yes.  Q    That was when you were alive? That was some time during  your life?  A    Just lately that they did.  Q    How about 'wiiminoosikx?  A     'Wiiminoosikx is of the Frog Clan.  Q    Does 'Wiiminoosikx have a seat at the feast table?  A    Yes, they have a seat at the -- their own table.  Q    That is not the same table that Gyedimgaldo'o sits at?  A    No.  Q    Is it the same table that Skawil and Biiniks and  Xskiigimlaxha sit at?  A    No.  Q    The next one I think would be Gwininitxw?  A    He is of the Wolf Clan and he too originated from  Kisgagas.  Gwininitxw today is Arthur Kusick.  Q    'Wiiminoosikx,  is that Robert Stevens?  A    I don't know who holds the name today.  That is in the  Kispiox area,  Q    The next one I want to ask you about -- it looks like  Xgwooyemtxw?   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Does he live in Hazelton?  A    Yes.   That is Mrs. Wale today.  Q    Kathleen  Wale?  A    Yes. /  Q    Is she the woman you tried to phone the other night  to find out about Ottawa?  A    Yes.  Q    Does She live in Hazelton or Gitanmaax?  A    Gitanmaax.  Q    What's the clan of Xgwooyemtxw?  A    Wolf.  Q    Is she also one of the Wolf people who came from  Kisgagas,  or her people lived in Gitanmaax?  A    Yes, long time her people came from Kisgagas.k Mrs. Wale  was born here.  Q    The next person I want to ask you about is Gyolugyet?  A    Gyolugyet,  Mary McKenzie.  Q    Yes,  I think that would be Mary McKenzie.  A    That is Wolf.  Q    Is she from Kisgagas also?  A    I think so but I can't say for sure. She is either from  Kisgagas  or Galdo'o. 128  STERRITT,  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  Q   Dawamuux?  A   Dawamuux, Fireweed, and the present Dawamuux is Charlie  Clifford.  Q   Dawamuux lives in Gitanmaax?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know a chief named Woosimlaxha?  A   Woosimlaxha is of the Fireweed Clan and the present one  is Victor Mowat.  Q   Is Woosimlaxha a wilp?  A   Yes, they have their own house.  Q   Is he a chief in the house?  A   Yes.  Q   Victor Mowat is the chief of that house?  A   Yes.  Q   Is that house in Hazelton or Gitanmaax?  A   I don't know where they originated from but they live in  Gitanmaax now.  Q   DO you remember when you were growing up in Gitanmaax  there was a house of Woosimlaxha then?  A   Yes, I remember.  Q   Do you know a chief named Xwtsimxwts'iin?  A   Yes,  I know.  Q   Is that Frog Clan?  A   Frog Clan. The present one is Joshua Campbell.  Q   Does Xwtsimxwts'iin sit at the table in the feast hall?  A   He sits at the table I sit on.  Q   He sits at the same table as 'Wiigoob'l?  A   Yes.  Q   Is Xwtsimxwts' iin  a wilp?  A   Yes.  Q   And Joshua Campbell is the chief?  A   Yes.  Joshua Campbell at present is ill.  Q   Is ill?  A   Yes.  Q   Is he an old man?  A   Yes.  Q   Does he sit further along to the right of Gyedimgaldo'o  at the feast table?  A   He sits between Bruce Johnson and Ben McKenzie.  Q   The last chief I want to ask you about, or the person I  want to ask you about is Guuwo'otxw -- I'm way out in  left field on that one!  THE INTERPRETER:  How do you spell that?  MR.  PLANT:  G-U-U-W-0-apostrophe-O-T-X-W.  THE  INTERPRETER:  X?  MR. PLANT: Charlotte Angus.  X-W  THE WITNESS:  I am not too sure and I can't remember Charlotte 129  STERRITT,  J.  Cross-Ex  Mr. Plant  Re-Exam  Mr. Rush  Angus' name.  They're Kispiox people.  BY MR.  PLANT:  Q   Jessie, do you know anything about a meeting with Mr.  Crombie, the Federal Government minister,  which Mr.  Crombie had with some of the chiefs of the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'ten people to discuss changes in the Indian  Act?  A   No, I wasn't there.  It met at a time when I was away.  Q   You don't really know if the meeting took place or not?  A   No.  Q   So you wouldn't know who was there?  MR. PLANT:  Just one second.  Those are all my questions.  Thank you very much  for your patience, both of you.  MR. RUSH:  Jessie, it's not over yet.  I have a few more  questions to ask of you and it won't take very long.  RE-EXAMINATION BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Yesterday, Mr. Plant asked you about the fact that  Gyedimgaldo'o sent James White to Ottawa to speak on his  behalf.  I want to ask you is the James White that went  to Ottawa, is that the person that became Gyedimgaldo'o  himself?  A   Yes.  Q   That is one and the same person,  is it?  A   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  Well, at the time he left he was not but he later  became Gyedimgaldo'o.  MR. RUSH:  I'm just trying to clear that up.  Q   I think it is understood that when James White went to  Ottawa he was not Gyedimgaldo'o?  A   I can't say for sure but I think he went after he had  the Gyedimgaldo'o.  MR. RUSH:   I see.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  Because it was only the chiefs with the head  name who went so he must have had it then.  MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Q   You said that the same group of chiefs that went to  Ottawa also went to Victoria; do you remember when they  went to Victoria?  A   I only know that they went to Ottawa.  It was only when  I phoned to get some definite information that I was  told that they also went -- the same group also went to  Victoria. 130  STERRITT,  Re-Exam  Mr. Rush  Q   My question is, did they go in the same year or was it  years later that they went? When did they go?  A   No,  I can't say, I don't know.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  I can only tell you what I know.  MR. RUSH:  That is what I hope you will tell us and you have  been doing very well in that.  Q   Yesterday, Jessie, you told us that you spent some time  with your aunt on your aunt's husband's trap line and  that you I think came out of school when you started  your third grade after your mother died.  I wanted to  ask you when you left school how long did you spend with  your aunt and your uncle on the trap line?  A   Until I was grown up.  Q   If you left from the school when you were in grade  three, I would take it you were about seven or eight  years old, would that be right?  Do you remember?  A   I don't think I would start school as they do today  because I was 11 years old when my mother died and that  is when I went to the trapping ground.  Q   How many years was it before you didn't go out on the  trap line with your aunt and uncle again?  A   I was about 16.  Q   Whose trap line was it that you went on?  A   The territory of 'Wiik'aax. My auntie was married to  'Wiik'aax.  Q   Are you able to say where the territory of 'Wiik'aax is?  MR. PLANT:  She's given that evidence in chief.  MR. RUSH:  Has she?  THE WITNESS:  The territory is east of Bear Lake. It is  between Skeena River and Bear Lake.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Now, you were asked yesterday by Mr. Plant whether there  was a difference between the House of 'Wiigoob'l and the  House of Nikat'een, and you said there was no  difference?  THE INTERPRETER: What was your question again, that there was  no difference?  MR.  RUSH:  Yes.  THE INTERPRETER: Between Nikat'een and 'Wiigoob'l?  MR. RUSH: Nikat'een and 'Wiigoob'l?  THE INTERPRETER: And her answer was?  MR. RUSH: There was no difference. 131  STERRITT, J.  Re-Exam  Mr. Rush  MR. PLANT: I don't remember that.  THE WITNESS:  I don't think that is what I said.  BY MR RUSH:  Q   Can you just clarify that for us? Is the House of  Nikat'een different from the House of 'Wiigoob'l?  A   Yes, it's different. But the same pitekt, that's Clan.  Q   Now, you also said, and I think I have this correct,  that you agreed with Mr. Plant that Gyedimgaldo'o is a  chief in the House of 'Wiigoob'l and that 'Wiigoob'l is  a chief in the House of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A   Yes, that's correct.  Q   My question is, in the laws of the Gitksan,  if in the  future there was a large number of people in the House  of 'Wiigoob'l or in the House of Gyedimgaldo'o, could  the two houses be separate?  A   No, they can't be.  Q   Is there a law that would allow houses when they're  large to become two houses?  THE INTERPRETER: You're referring to the physical house now?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE WITNESS: Yes, a long time ago they would.  THE INTERPRETER:  What did you say?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  A long time ago when the house was too  crowded they would build another house.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Would it just become two wilps?  A   No, they would be two separate houses. In the physical  sense. Two buildings.  Q   My question is, if there were two separate physical  buildings, would there also be two separate wilp that  would be created?  THE INTERPRETER:  You're talking about people now?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE WITNESS: No, they're still the same.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: I am aware that the laws of the white people are  different from ours and sometimes it is a little hard to  explain it.  MR. RUSH:  I am aware of that too.  Q   Yesterday, Mr. Plant asked how was the decision made in 132  STERRITT,  Re-Exam  Mr. Rush  the House of Gyedimgaldo'o to start the lawsuit; I  wanted to ask you if there was a feast in your house  that you hosted in the fall in 1985? Do you recall a  feast from your house?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know, was there any money or any resources of  your house given to the Tribal Council for the land  claims case?  A   After all our expenses were met there was some money  left in the dish and we divided it between the church  and the Tribal Council.  Q   And was Gyedimgaldo'o, Sylvester Green, there?  A   Yes.  Q   Jessie, did Daniel Skawil speak English?  A   Very little.  Q   Did he write English?  A   No.  Q   The map that Mr. Plant showed you this morning that is  Exhibit seven, do you know who put the English words on  the map?  I am just showing you Exhibit seven?  A   No, wherever the map was made they put in the names.  I'm assuming that Dan provided the information.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Now, Jessie, you were asked about Daniel Skawil's map  here and my question to you, you just told me a few  moments ago that you lived on the trap line of 'Wiik'aax  until you were an adult?  A   Yes.  Q   Did you ever live in the same way on the trap line in  the territory of Skawil?  A   Yes.  Q   How long did you live on the Skawil territory?  A   I just went on the one trip with them, I was about 16  then.  Q   You have mentioned -- Mr. Plant asked you about Simon  Gunnanoot; is David Gunnanoot Simon's son?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know if David spent time on the trap line with  Simon?  A   Yes he did. Until he was an adult.  Q   You told us about Johnny Wilson's cabin, I think you  said located at Skawil Creek?  A   Yes.  Q   How many years has Johnny Wilson been on the trap line? 133  STERRITT, J.  Re-Exam  Mr. Rush  A  He just started going on it this year.  He built the  cabin last summer.  Q   Who used the trap line before him?  A  We heard that people used it but I don't really know  their names.  MR. RUSH: Those are all the questions I  MR. PLANT: Before we stop can we have a  record chat?  MR. RUSH: Just pause there for a moment  have of you.  little off the  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. RUSH: Maybe just go back on the record.  Jessie, thank you very much for your testimony.  That concludes the Commission Evidence in your case.  Thank you, Vi .  MR. PLANT: Thank you very much.  THE WITNESS:  Good:    PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED AT 11.20 a.m. 22 JANUARY, 1986  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  VH/lre-Jan. 26/86  Veronica Harper (Ms)  Official Court Reporter  B.C.S.R.A.  #263

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