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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-05-21] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 21, 1987

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 439  1  2  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MAY 21, 1987  SMITHERS, B.C.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  21st day of May, 1987,  Majesty the Queen.  Witness, I remind you,  WITNESS:   Yes.  Delgam Uukw and others and Her  you are still under oath.  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  Mr. Grant.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Yes.  Mrs. McKenzie, yesterday we left off and we were  discussing some of the territories and you were  talking about your father, Haalus's territory.  Do  you -- does your father have any fishing sites near  his territory that you know of?  Yes, he has one on the Skeena River and its right next  to the Highway 16 today.  And —  And it's located on Bolder Creek West.  That's the name, it's West Bolder Creek?  Yes.  And were you ever at that fishing site?  A couple of times, yes.  And who was -- who used that fishing site when you  were there, and if you could tell the Court when you  were there?  I was there when Willy Sampare was there.  He had a  Smoke House, and of course Willy Sampare is Haalus's  House.  And were you ever there when you were a child?  No.  This was just about 7 years ago.  And is Willy Sampare alive today?  No.  Now, I would like to refer you back to your own  territory.  Today is there any other chief who claims  part of Gyolugyet's territory?  Would you rephrase that again please.  Okay.  Today, that is at this time, is there any other  chief that claims -- any other Gitksan chief who  claims part of your territory?  The only person that doesn't belong to Gyolugyet's  House is Wallace Danes, and he's registered Win skahl  Guuhl, which he's son of the late Joe Danes.  I didn't hear what she said.  I think she said  something about registered.  I am going to go to that.  That's number one hundred  on the list. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  440  Now, you referred to the fact that he's registered.  Can you explain what you mean by Wallace Danes is  registered?  He went to the Fish and Wildlife office here in  Smithers and he claimed that Win skahl Guuhl, so he  had it registered under his name.  That's a registered trap line?  Trap line, yes.  Now, how is he related to Gyolugyet's House?  He is not related in Gyolugyet's House because he is  of the Lax See'l, I'm Lax Gibuu.  And his father was  late Gyolugyet, so I guess he figured that he is  registered, and that's not the Gitksan way of claiming  a territory.  Is there a Gitksan law which allows for him to use  Gyolugyet's territory because his father was  Gyolugyet?  Yes.  And this is what we had said, it goes under Am  Nigwootxw.  When was your territory described in the Feast Hall  last, Gyolugyet's territory?  Right now I can't recall -- we are a fortunate family,  I guess we don't have deaths in our House frequently,  so it's been awhile since Marian Jack's death.  You referred earlier to Marian Jack dying in 1959, I  believe?  Yes.  And was it described at her Funeral Feast?  Yes.  At that Feast did any other chiefs dispute that that  was Gyolugyet's territory?  No, not at all.  You, as Gyolugyet, have attended many other Feasts,  both Lax Gibuu and others since 1959?  Yes.  At any of those Feasts has there been any chief ever  raised a question as to this territory or part of it  not belonging to Gyolugyet?  None whatsoever.  All the Feastings I have gone with  all the clans, and never has been anything -- reason  about the territory.  And this includes Feasts held by chiefs of the  territories adjacent to your territory?  Yes.  Now, yesterday you referred to the fact that in the  time of your grandmother there was some Court matters  about your territory.  Can you explain to the Court in 1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  441  more detail what you were referring to there?  In -- before 1935, that's when -- excuse me -- Joseph  Danes died.  And him being Gyolugyet, and so he goes  on the territory to hunt and trap.  Now, he -- there  are times that he went on the trap line with his  father-in-law, and that his father-in-law is the late  Tommy Muldoe.  And what House was Tommy Muldoe in?  He was in the Lax Gibuu as well, and he was in  Spookw's House.  Madiigim gyet was his name at that  time.  Just as an aside, when you say Tommy Muldoe was Joseph  Danes father-in-law, specifically referring to the  fact that he was Joseph Danes wife's father?  Yes.  Go ahead.  And they're gone a few times there, the two of them.  Sometimes they have other relatives going there.  So  when Joe Danes died in 1935, no one went over the trap  line in '36, but in 1937 Tommy Muldoe decided that he  would go there and try and claim it.  And this was on Gyolugyet's territory?  Territory, yes.  Uh-huh.  So our grandmother heard about it, so he reported it  to the Indian nation.  And who was that?  Captain Mortimer.  When he arrived home, my mother had Court against  Tommy Muldoe of trespassing without no coming to us  about it or none -- like my grandmother and my mother  never gave him permission to go out there at all.  All right.  And so the Court went on and between him and my  grandmother.  Where was that Court?  It was held in Indian Arms in Gitanmaax up on the  Reserve at that time.  And was it Captain Mortimer who was --  Yes.  And at that time only a few came to the Court.  A few?  Just my family and Tommy Muldoe himself, but there was  my grandmother and my mother was there, so that  wasn't -- it wasn't settled at that time, so the next  year again Court was again opened about the trap line.  He still wanted -- and he still wanted to go there.  And before he started to go out there, my grandmother 442  1 went up to his House and told him, he said "You are  2 not going to own that territory."  He said "It doesn't  3 belong to you, it belongs to Gyolugyet and all the  4 Houses".  So the Court opened it to them again.  Now,  5 this is where the head chiefs of the different clans  6 came in, and the only person I remember that was there  7 was Andrew Wilson at that Court.  8 Q   And who was he?  9 A   He was -- he held the name of Ax dii Tseex at that  10 time.  11 Now, it was the chiefs that spoke that that  12 territory belonged to Gyolugyet and their other Houses  13 and all the Wi'nat'ahl.  They told Mr. Muldoe that he  14 had his own House and own territory, that he wasn't  15 supposed to be on Gyolugyet's territory.  So that's  16 when it settled then, that he did not try again to  17 take over and own the territory.  18 Q   And that was settled in your grandmother's favour?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And you were present at that time?  21 A   Yes, I was there.  22 Q   This dispute involved the efforts by Tommy Muldoe to  23 register the trap line?  24 A  At that time that was his intentions that he told my  25 grandmother when he lost the first case, he said that  26 he told my grandmother that he was going to register  27 it, no matter how the case went, he was on the  28 register, but he went to the office here in Smithers  29 but he couldn't get registering it.  30 Q   Who made the decision that it was your grandmother's  31 territory?  Who ultimately made that decision?  32 A  At that Court?  33 Q   Yes, in that process?  34 A   Yes.  Well, like I said, only Andrew Wilson was one  35 person I knew that was there, and there were six or  36 seven other chiefs, but he was -- that I have on my  37 mind all the time that he was there; and they pointed  38 out to the Indian agent and they mentioned all the  39 creeks that they knew that was on that territory and  40 who held those creeks, and they are from Gyolugyet's,  41 like Kwamoon, Hlo'oxs and Mediik.  42 Q   Like the evidence you gave yesterday in that Court?  43 A   Yes.  And Marian Jack was mentioned then at that time.  44 She held the name of Tax 'mi sax at that time.  So it  45 was the chiefs that answered the question of Captain  4 6 Mortimer. And they all were in favour and they knew  47 some of the -- our neighbours.  Like the border 1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  443  neighbours were there and they proved that that was  Gyolugyet's territory.  Now, I just want to get some dates, context of dates  here.  You have already given evidence that you took  the name Kwamoon in 1942; is that right?  Yes.  Now, when did Marian Jack die?  1959.  Okay.  And when was the pole raising in which you  raised the name Gyolugyet?  The pole raising, I made a statement before, that it  was in 1959.  Yes.  But then I went to Violet Brown and Marian Jacks'  daughter.  Right.  And she informed me that the pole raising was in 1949.  And these were the two dates I got a problem with  because the pole raising was in 1949, Marian Jack died  in 1959.  Okay.  So you had mixed up the dates?  Yes.  So you took the name at the time of the pole  raising --  No.  -- your name Gyolugyet?  Yes, I took the name of Gyolugyet at the pole raising.  Okay.  And that was '49.  '42 I held the name Kwamoon.  Now, you described that your husband, with your  consent and your mother's and grandmother's consent,  had used the territory and was out there in 1947?  Yes.  And did he go out there again after that year of the  flood?  Yes.  When did he go out there again?  He went in 19 -- I believe it was 1949.  Okay.  That was the year of the pole raising?  Yes.  Now, after 1949 did any people from Gyolugyet's House  go out on the territory?  This is the year of the pole  raising.  The person that took care of the territory was Marian  Jack, and she's from Gyolugyet's House.  She held Suu wii gus?  Not at that time.  She's still Tax 'mi sax. 444  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  45  MR.  GRANT  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GRANT  Yes.  Now, when she, right from her young days, she  travelled with her parents -- and she's a very good  trapper herself, she's a bush lady.  And so when her  father died, the late Wii Minosik, she went with her  father and her mother on Wii Minosik territory, and  she knows all of Wii Minosik's territory.  Before you go further.  She went with her mother and  father, was that before her father's death?  Yes, about -- before her father's death.  So when her  father died, she didn't go back on Wii Minosik because  that belonged to a different clan and a different  House, so she -- this is when she started going on  Gyolugyet's territory.  Now, I don't recall the year  that Wii Minosik died, but it was the following year  when she went to our territory; and she was there  nearly every winter, every trapping and season she was  there.  She did the trapping there until 1958, the  year before she died.  Okay.  Do you know some of the places on your  territory where she went to?  Well, her being the only person that would look after  the territory, my mother allowed her that she'd trap  on different creeks that is held with -- for Kwamoon,  Mediik and Hlo'oxs and Gyolugyet; and after awhile she  was Woos, she got the name Woos of one Feasting that  she put on after she got back, and that's when she  went back to our territory, when she got the name  Woos .  This was before the pole raising?  Yes.  :   My Lord, I just have the copies here now and I have  provided copies to my friends, but there is a copy of  a list of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en plaintiffs and  Kitwancool chiefs.  I have provided copies of these to  my friends and this is a copy for the convenience of  the Court.  :  Thank you.  :   This is standardized to the pleadings, and we have  provided a copy to the Reporter.  This is a  commencement of this, but since some of these names  may have been referred to --  :  Is this a list of the current holders of these  names?  Yes.  All right.  And this list is being provided as an assistance in 445  1  2 THE  3 MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17 THE  18 THE  19 MR.  2 0 MR.  21  22 THE  2 3 MR.  24 THE  25 THE  2 6 MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  terms of spelling.  :  Yes.  Thank you.  Now -- I'm sorry.  You said Marian took the name Woos  and that was before the pole raising Feast; is that  correct?  Yes.  And was that before you took the name Kwamoon in 1942  or was it after that?  I took the name Kwamoon in '42.  Right.  And at the pole raising, that's when I took Gyolugyet,  and that's when Marian took the name Suu wii gus at  the pole raising.  So she had taken the name Woos before that?  Yes.  :  Could I have that spelling of that name please.  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  TRANSLATOR: S-u-u w-i-i g-u-s.  COURT:  That's Suu wii gus.  GRANT:  And Woos.  There is a spelling of Woos at number 82  of the list.  That's on the new list I provided you.  Thank you.  It's on the top of the last page, W-o-o-s.  Well, when did she take the name Suu wii gus?  At the pole raising.  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  WITNESS:  GRANT:  Q   In 1949?  A   Yes.  Q   And before that she took the name Woos?  A   Yes.  Q   And that name Woos is in your House?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, there is a plaintiff in this action, Roy Morris,  who holds the name Woos.  He's not in your House?  A   No, that's a Wet'suwet'en.  Q   Okay.  Do you know if there are cabins or were cabins  built on your territory?  A   Yes, I know there is a couple there because Joe Danes  came to my grandmother and mother and reported to them  that he has built sort of a lean-to, shelter where  they'd camp, and it was the winter before he died that  he built a new one, and he told my mother about it.  And it was the next winter when he died.  So that  cabin was finished at that time, and he didn't go back  to it after it was built, after he built it with his  father-in-law.  Q   Was that cabin used subsequently? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  446  Yes.  By who?  When my husband, Ben, Ben McKenzie went up there, he  said that he camped in that shelter.  Are there trails on your territory?  Yes. That was one reason why we, like I say, my mother  and I and Marian, allowed her to go over the  territory, the whole territory, so that she blazes the  trails for trap lines, and because she, after two  years, she really had the picture of the territory at  that time, which creeks belonged to other Houses.  So  this is why we got together and allowed her to trap  anywhere on the territory, so that this is for  protection of the territory.  And she was the only one  that could travel there.  Okay.  Now, your son, Ben, was born in 1937, I believe  you said, around that time?  Yes.  Is there a reason why your son, Ben, in the 1950's or  1960's was unable to go out on the territory?  He was quite young at that time and then he worked for  the Department of Highways, started working there in  1945, and he had an injury as a boy of 11 years, and  he had back trouble and then arthritis got in there,  so he was unable to do any long travelling, especially  on snow shoes.  He was unable to go.  And this was  another reason too why he didn't go with his father in  '47.  You just -- just to clarify one thing, you said he  started working with the Department of Highways in  1945.  Do you mean 1955?  He would have only been 8  years old in 1945.  Yes, I'm getting all my years mixed up here.  My  calendar is not very good up in here.  So it was about when he was 18 that he started working  with the Highways?  He started working at the Department of Highways when  he was 16.  Okay.  Now, after Marian died, between that time and  now, are there other persons who have been out on your  territory with your permission?  After Marian died?  Yes.  No.  But at his Burial Feasting --  For Marian?  For Marian in '59.  My mother told the head chiefs  that whenever my husband, Ben, decides to trap on our 447  1 territory, that at that Feasting he'd give permission  2 to my husband and to or Abel Brown, that's Violet  3 Brown's husband, and that's Marian's son-in-law.  4 Q   Have you maintained contact or been kept informed  5 about what's going on in your territory in the last 20  6 years?  7 A   Yes.  In Gitksan way, our neighbours -- I got to put  8 it this way -- they protect a territory.  So if they  9 see that there is trespassers on Gyolugyet's  10 territory, they report to me about it, and this is  11 how -- there's been two or three of these neighbours  12 have come reporting that they -- the place is still  13 untouched by other people.  14 Q   Okay.  Could you clarify who you mean by -- who are  15 these neighbours that you are referring to, neighbours  16 on the territory or neighbours in your community?  17 A  My neighbours on the territory.  Like Delgam Uukw is  18 one of my neighbours, and that's a Djogaslee,  19 neighbour of Albert Tait, and Djogaslee and Robert  20 Wilson.  21 Q   That's number 5.  22 A   Of course they have to go -- Djogaslee had to go at  23 that through my territory to get to his place.  24 MR. GRANT:   Djogaslee is number 5, My Lord.  25 THE COURT:  Number 5.  I thought you said 75.  Sorry.  What was  26 the other name, Walter Wilson and a earlier one?  27 THE WITNESS:  And Delgam Uukw, the late Albert Tait.  28 THE COURT:  I thought there was another one?  29 THE WITNESS:  Djogaslee at that time was William Wale, and  30 that's the person that informed me.  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q   And he was Djogaslee before Walter Wilson, the present  33 holder?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Can you -- what is the most recent report you had  36 about what's going on in your territory?  37 A   The late Delgam Uukw is very active right up 'til his  38 death, and he travels in his territory; and being our  39 neighbour, he knows what -- who comes in or what is  4 0 happening.  So when he informed me about a year  41 and-a-half ago that he said "You should be aware of  42 this", is when he went over our -- my territory, said  43 "I seen ribbons were on the territory", he said, "and  44 I imagine that's a sign of someone putting road in  45 there".  46 MR. PLANT: My Lord, I assume that that evidence is being led for  47 the truth of the fact that the statement is made, not 448  1  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  PLANT  4  THE  COURT  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  11  12  13  THE  COURT  14  15  16  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  the content of the statement because --  It can only be --  Hearsay.  It can only be proof of the fact that she was told  these things.  :  Yes, this is evidence of what is being reported to  her, her knowledge of her contact with her territory.  What's the -- what's your understanding of the  resources on your territory, that is the quantity or  quality of the beaver that are on your territory, have  been on your territory?  :  How can this be of any assistance, Mr. Grant?  She  hasn't been there herself.  Is her knowledge of the  quality of the beaver, as reported to her, going to be  of any assistance?  :  Okay.  I'll rephrase the initial question, maybe lay  the groundwork --  :  Thank you.  Have you seen beaver pelts from the territory?  Yes, I have.  Okay.  And when have you seen beaver pelts that have  come off the territory?  When Marian Jack has a good year of beaver trapping,  he'd come to my mother, he would give her pelts of the  territory because she felt that we should have these  pelts, so she'd give mom about 10 pelts of beaver.  I  know one time she gave me 10 pelts of beaver, when she  got back.  That was the good years of her trapping.  Now, that was a time I seen these pelts of the  territory, when she once in awhile -- probably when  she comes in Christmas time -- she'd give mom a  couple -- Martin from the territory.  And so in 1947  I've seen a lot of pelts come out from the territory,  when my husband went and trapped the beavers there.  Yes.  So when he first went there -- at first I repeat what  Marian said when she came to give us these pelts.  He  said "It looks like", he said, "that the beavers have  a disease out there", he said, "for I don't know what  reason, but without being trapped, they are dying off  quickly".  So he said "There is hardly anything  there".  So a couple of years after that my husband  went and that built up of beaver again, was plentiful  there.  So he made quite a good catch the first year  he was there, and he came back and reported -- he had 1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18 THE  COURT  19 MR.  GRANT  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  449  my son and the sisters, my mother and I -- and he  said, "You people have a rich country up there", he  said, "of beaver".  Did you see the beaver pelts that your husband brought  back?  Yes, I saw it.  And were they -- were you involved when your husband  sold those?  Yes.  And they were -- were they valued at a good price at  that time?  At that time it varies in years.  Uh-huh.  Prices on -- the way they go -- just a zig-zag.  Mrs. McKenzie, I would like to refer you over from  your territory over to your husband's territory,  Luutkudziiwas or Ben McKenzie.  That's number 44.  :  Thank you.  When were you last out on your husband's territory?  1980.  And what did you do out on that territory with your  husband?  We went out there in April, around the 20th of April  for beaver trapping, and we stayed out there a month.  And why have you not been out there since 1980?  He is unable to do any trapping.  Your husband?  Yes, of sickness.  That's because he is sick?  Yes.  You described a few days ago the adaawk of Suu wii  gus.  In relation -- in relation to that adaawk, when  those events occurred, when did Gyolugyet acquire this  territory?  Firstly, is that explained in the adaawk?  When I mentioned it, that Suu Wii Gus found it, the  Village of Kuldo, that was quite awhile -- and then  that was quite awhile, and then that's when he got the  territory.  That's the specific territory, the Gyolugyet?  Yes.  And was this founding of Kuldo before the arrival of  the white man, according to the adaawk?  According to the adaawk, it's long before any  Europeans arrived.  And this could be thousands of  years ago, because when they did their war, their  battle, they used spears, arrow heads, bows and arrows 450  1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  MR.  PLANT  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  COURT  and stone hammers.  These were the equipment they had  to -- when they went to battle.  Your evidence was that your mother, grandmother, told  you the adaawk.  Did she describe whether she was  alive when this adaawk occurred or whether it was told  to her?  When she told us about these adaawks, she referred  that these were told by her great grandmother, these  adaawks, as to how far back that she recalled these  adaawks.  Do members of your House have intentions to go on your  territory?  Yes, last couple of winters now my son, Benny, and my  grandson Kenny John, they got together and decided  that they were men now and that they heard so much of  the people saying that we have a very rich territory  for trapping and hunting --  This is simply hearsay, isn't it, Mr. Grant?  Well —  Is there any possible basis for the admissibility of  this evidence, what two living persons have themselves  decided to do --  With respect to this evidence, it's  move back on this position right now.  further on this point.  All right.  Thank you.  -- well, I will  I won't lead  I would like to move into another area of evidence  with you, Mrs. McKenzie, and that is the evidence of  your knowledge of certain events that occurred since  the European's arrived in the territory of the  Gitksan.  First of all, your father was William  Holland; is that right?  Yes.  And his name was Haalus?  Yes.  Now, do you know if your father gave evidence or  spoke, if he was the same William Holland referred to  at the McKennna McBride commission?  : Before the witness answers that question, I would  like the record to show whether or not this is part of  the adaawk of the House or is something that was told  to her.  :  This would have been, of course, before the birth of  the witness?  :  Yes.  :  There is a record of those proceedings? 451  1  MR.  GRANT  2  THE  COURT  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  MR.  PLANT  10  11  THE  COURT  12  13  14  MR.  MACAU  15  THE  COURT  16  17  MR.  GRANT  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  MR.  PLANT  35  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  41  42  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  46  47  Yes.  Is this person identified in that record as *William  Holland?  Yes.  The record will be produced, the transcripts  will be produced and dealt with.  In fact it was  referred to in the opening.  Is the identification of that person disputed by the  defence?  No, My Lord, I am more concerned about what may come  after this question.  Well then, it isn't necessary for the witness to  prove identification.  We haven't heard from Mr.  Macaulay.  AY: We are not contesting that point.  Well then, the identification of that person is  admitted.  Okay.  Thank you.  That that person was the father -- as I understand  the admission is -- William Holland spoke at the  McKenna McBride Commission and was Haluus and was the  father of this witness.  :  Yes.  Okay.  The transcript indicates that your father gave  evidence at the hearings with respect to the Kuldo  chiefs.  Now, was your father, Haalus, a Kuldo chief?  No.  Okay.  He was a chief from Kitwangar?  Yes.  Do you know why your father would have spoken on  behalf of the Kuldo chiefs?  Because --  : Again, that may be contested.  I'm not sure how the  witness could have discovered that, other than either  by reading the transcript -- we'll be able to do  ourselves -- or by being told by her father or by some  other person.  :  Does it matter, Mr. Grant, what his, for want of a  better word, his authority was?  And surely if he said  these things that has legal signification or it  hasn't, is it part of your burden to prove his actual  or ostensible authority?  :  Well, given the scope of the defence of the Province  in this case, My Lord, I think that the context, this  evidence of what was said is evidence that will be  before you.  I think the context in which he was 452  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  10  11  MR.  GRANT  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  THE  COURT  16  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  THE  COURT  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  speaking for the Kuldo chiefs, that is something that  if there was a reason why he was speaking for the  Kuldo chiefs, it's something that would put the  context as to why he was speaking at that particular  time.  You have evidence that he's a Kitwangar chief  and he's speaking in the transcript for the Kuldo  chiefs.  But how are we to advance the trial of these issues  by having this witness hazard an opinion as to why he  was speaking on behalf of the Kuldo chiefs?  Let me deal with it in another way.  Yes, certainly.  I don't wish to let this lie, but I will endeavor to  approach it in another manner.  We have enough problems in dealing with -- we have  enough problems already without taking on more burdens  that we need to take on.  I know that.  I very much appreciate that, My Lord.  Go ahead.  Do you know who was the head chief of the Kuldo, the  Lax Gibuu of Kuldo in 1915?  Who would have been the  head chief?  Nicodemus Gyolugyet was the Gyolugyet.  Now Mediik,  Mark Mediik, was the head chief of a House there and  my mother was Mediik's House.  This was while -- at that time these two Houses were  separate that are now together?  Yes.  You are talking now about what your --  Mediik's House and Gyolugyet --  I'm sorry, when you asked the witness who was the  chief of the Lax Gibuu at Kuldo at that particular  time --  In 1915.  In 1915, yes.  Yes.  Now, Nicodemus Gyolugyet, you remembered him when you  were alive?  I didn't see him but I seen his family.  Now, in 1915 was Mark Mediik — Mark Mediik died in  1917, I believe you described?  Yes.  Do you know or were you told by your grandmother how  old Mark Mediik was when he died?  Well, at that time he was quite old, probably in his  '80's. 453  1 Q   And what about Nicodemus Gyolugyet?  2 A   He would be in the same age.  3 Q   Okay.  Now, earlier in your evidence you described  4 that at some point in time the Feasts were banned,  5 they were made illegal.  Do you recall -- and I refer  6 you here to John Smith -- any action that he took or  7 that he and other chiefs took regarding the banning of  8 the Feasts?  And if you could start by telling when  9 this happened and then describe what happened.  10 A   In 1930 I was at the residential school at that time  11 and it was during that time that the chiefs of  12 Gitanmaax formed a meeting and they wanted to show the  13 strength of the chiefs, so they had to open a  14 Feasting.  And they wanted to see if the law could  15 step in at that Feasting, so the chiefs there and John  16 Smith was the person that made a step, is that I'll  17 put a Feasting on.  18 Q   What was his chief's name?  19 A  At that time it was K'abim Simoogit.  20 MR. MACAULAY: It seems the witness is taking what appears to be  21 a verbatim account of matters that would have happened  22 in her absence at school, when she was at residential  23 school.  24 THE COURT:  I don't know where the school was but I suspect she  25 wasn't personally present when these things happened,  26 was she, Mr. Grant?  27 MR. MACAULAY: The witness is now quoting, she is saying I will  28 do this or I will do that --  29 MR. GRANT:  I will lay some groundwork, My Lord.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q   Can you tell me how you've learned of what happened  33 with this Feast with John Smith?  Who told you about  34 this and --  35 A  Well, in 1942 I took the name of Kwamoon and I'm one  36 of the chiefs then.  Now, the other older chief have  37 to inform me of what is happening, so that I'll have  38 the knowledge of what went on before I took the chief.  39 That's the -- another law that the chiefs have.  A new  40 chief, we have to explain, we have to tell, and it  41 goes in the adaawk of the people, that this new chief  42 has to recognize all laws and all adaawks and all the  43 happenings.  Now, this is why John Smith called me to  44 his House, after, in 1942, when I took the name of  4 5 Kwamoon.  46 Q   So you were told about these events by John Smith?  47 A   Yes. 454  1 Q   As part of your training?  2 A   Yes.  So if any problem comes up again about the  3 Feasting, I should know about it, and I should know  4 about what had happened before.  5 Q   Okay. Were you taught -- told about this event by your  6 grandmother as well?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And does this event form part of the adaawk of the  9 Gitksan?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Proceed to tell what happened.  12 THE COURT:  Well, I'm sorry, I think we better resolve this  13 problem with Mr. Macaulay's objection.  14 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  15 THE COURT:  Are you -- you are standing on your objection, Mr.  16 Macaulay?  17 MR. MACAULAY: Yes, My Lord.  18 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Let me just move a little further and lay  19 other groundwork.  2 0 MR. GRANT:  21 Q   Is John Smith alive now?  22 A   No.  23 Q   And you have already described your grandmother is not  24 alive?  25 A   No.  26 Q   Would any of the persons who were present at this  27 Feast that you are describing, that is the Feast, John  28 Smith's Feasts, not the Kwamoon Feast in 1942, are  29 they alive now?  30 A   No, I can't recall our eldest that would have been  31 there.  I would have known if I was there but I was at  32 the residential schools.  33 Q   Yes, I understand.  If you had been in Gitanmaax at  34 that time, you would have been at this Feast?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Because you already had your child's name?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Was the event of this Feast with Nika teen discussed  39 in other feasts?  Subsequently that is.  40 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, this Feast was?  41 MR. GRANT:  42 Q   Was the events that you are about to describe, about  43 John Smith and the Feast that he had, was it discussed  44 publicly by the Gitksan chiefs?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And you say it was part of the adaawk because it had  47 been referred to in the Feasts? 455  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  14  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27 THE  28  2 9 MR.  30 THE  31  32  33 MR.  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43 THE  44  45  4 6 MR.  47 THE  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  The Gitksan adaawk, yes.  And you indicated that it was part of your training  that you were taught this, before you took Kwamoon or  at the time you took Kwamoon in 1942?  Yes.  Was this event -- is this an event that you have  taught to your children as part of their training?  Well, it has to go on the adaawk of Gitksan, not just  on the one House, the adaawk goes on Gitksan people.  So it wasn't just Nika teen's adaawk but this is a  broader description?  Yes.  MACAULAY: This is really what I am getting at.  We are  coming to very different definition of the adaawk and  that's the basis for my objection.  COURT:  Yes.  MACAULAY: We had evidence of the adaawk of the witness's  House, now we're shifting gears so-to-speak, and are  starting to deal with something else that is also  called an adaawk, within matters within living memory,  although 1930 must probably now be getting towards the  outer limits of that.  It casts a different view --  the adaawk in a different character.  This isn't an  ancient story and handing adaawk through generations  from father to son, recited again and confirmed at the  Feasts and so on, this is a political enterprise.  COURT:  I suppose there are historians who have recorded  this --  MACAULAY: No doubt.  COURT:  -- this historical event -- not this particular  Feast but have recorded the prohibition of such an  event or Feasting.  Well, I think that if I was concerned, My Lord, with  merely with the prohibition of Feasting, there is  legislation that I can allude to that we don't need to  lead evidence.  That's not what I am endeavoring to  do.  What is important and what this witness is  describing, and my friend has maybe jumped up a little  bit too soon, but I was about to question the witness  as to why she would describe this as adaawk for the  Gitksan as opposed to an adaawk for her House, but I  know --  That's one of the problems that I have, is that I  understood, and I may be wrong, that the adaawk was  the adaawk of a House.  Yes.  Now, you just referred to the adaawk of the Gitksan.  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT  COURT 456  1 MR. GRANT:  That's what the witness referred to and that's what  2 I was endeavoring to, I think, to give her an  3 opportunity to explain it.  I note the hour and I  4 would suggest maybe we could take the morning break.  5 THE COURT:  Unfortunately I made arrangements for some long  6 distance telephone calls at 11:15, and if we adjourn  7 now, still be out at 11:15.  Can we carry on for a  8 minute?  And I think this is a matter of some  9 importance, and I -- it anticipates the discussion I  10 hope to have with counsel about this.  You see, it  11 isn't going to be convenient to use the umbrella of  12 the adaawk to make admissibile what would otherwise be  13 clearly inadmissible.  There must be a definition of  14 the adaawk and matters that are properly within the  15 adaawk, I suppose, in a case of this kind, become  16 admissible as part of the legend as Chief Justice  17 Dickson referred to it of an Indian Band or an Indian  18 group, but it appears to me to be fraughtly danger  19 that individual events can be -- and I use this word  20 in a -- certainly not a majorative sense -- that an  21 individual event can't be dignified into admissibility  22 by saying it's in the adaawk.  It can't surely be  23 something that's made admissible on the ipsi dixit or  24 say so of an individual witness.  That's what's  25 troubling me.  I think the legend of these people  26 should be admissible, if it's true that a part of the  27 legend of the people, and it may be that the banning  28 of Feasting and things that happen in connection with  29 that are of sufficient importance to be part of the  30 legend, but I am troubled by the possible extension of  31 the evidence in some limitless way merely by  32 characterizing as legend rather than fact.  33 Now, counsel are going to have to assist me in this  34 because there has to be a modus vivendi that can make  35 this trial work a little.  How that is to be done I  36 don't know, but I would like to have counsel's views  37 on what they think and where they think those lines  38 must be drawn.  39 You see, Mr. Grant, you are really saying that you  40 want the witness to tell me now what somebody told her  41 about the event in the 30's, merely because in her  42 capacity as a chief, sub-chief at that time and future  43 chief, somebody told her that these things happened.  44 Does it go much beyond that?  45 MR. GRANT:  Oh, yes, yes.  I submit that at this point, even  46 without me asking the further questions, which I  47 was -- at this point the witness has explained that 457  1 this is not just something that somebody has told her,  2 that -- that I concede and was dealt with yesterday,  3 for example, what her husband told her about what  4 happened on the trap line in 1947, but that's not what  5 we are talking about here.  We are talking here about  6 something that was part of her training as a chief.  7 It was told to her by her grandmother and it was told  8 to her by one of the principle participants who  9 specifically called her up at the time she was taking  10 on the sub-chief's name, to educate her as part of her  11 training.  12 Now, what I am concerned about, My Lord, is I agree  13 that we shouldn't -- this shouldn't apply to every  14 particular event, and that's not what I am endeavoring  15 to do, but if an event is an essential part of the  16 training of a chief and is taught by their  17 grandparents, it's my submission that whether that  18 event occurred in 1930 or 1530 is not the point.  The  19 point is is there -- is this person taught this, is it  20 trained and is it disclosed in public, is it a public  21 notoriety of such importance to the community that it  22 is described in that way.  That is why I say this  23 particular event would come within that capacity and  24 not a question of having an evolving moving definition  25 of adaawk, it's a question of what certain events  26 reflect; and I submit that even on the evidence that  27 this witness has described, that this is one of the --  28 this is part of her training, and it's part of the  29 training of her grandmother.  30 Now, her grandmother taught her about earlier  31 holders of the names.  Now, she's also taught her  32 about how the chiefs of Gitanmaax dealt with the  33 banning of the potlatch.  Now, if they had done that  34 in 1884, on my learned friend's theory, then she could  35 describe it, but because they did it in 1930, then she  36 cannot describe it.  Now, what I am saying is that the  37 event itself is of such importance that this witness  38 has described it as part of the adaawk.  She's also  39 described it as part of the training of her as a  40 chief, and that's where I'm submitting -- and she's  41 also explained that it has been described in public.  42 Now, I was about to move into -- ask the witness why  43 she explained that this was part of "a Gitksan adaawk"  44 as opposed to an adaawk of the one House when my  45 friend intervened and interjected.  46 THE COURT:  Well, I suppose one of the problems I have, and I  47 want to try to avoid any premature conclusions, merely 458  1 because of the order in which evidence is led, but on  2 Thursday last I had pages and pages of notes of what  3 the witness said was the adaawk of the Gyolugyet.  4 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  5 THE COURT:  It went on and on and I got pages and pages of it  6 and it really is -- it's a matter of history and  7 tradition, and I tend to agree with you that it  8 doesn't perhaps matter when it happened, if an adaawk  9 is a body of laws and legend, then presumably like the  10 common lots of a growing tree and there have to be  11 additions to it, and I am not sure that -- well, I  12 tend to think that the banning of Feasting may be of  13 sufficient important historical event that it could  14 well form part of the adaawk; but I think that the  15 problem I have is to separate that sort of thing from  16 merely what someone told her as part of growing up or  17 part of training or anything else, the umbrella of the  18 adaawk has to have limits to it.  That's what's  19 troubling me more than the -- the specific problem  20 that we have.  But in any event, I have run out on the  21 clock, it's a convenient time for us to adjourn and  22 I'll -- I think that what I will do is subject to what  23 counsel want to submit when we return, is to try to  24 hear this evidence, reserving on the objection, and  25 deal with the whole matter more comprehensively, and  26 have the discussion with counsel, which I will hope to  27 have early next week.  28  29 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  30 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  31 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  32 SKILL AND ABILITY.  33  34  35 LORI OXLEY  36 OFFICIAL REPORTER  37 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 459  THE  THE  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 MR.  8  9 THE  10 MR.  11  12 THE  13 MR.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS CONTINUED AFTER MORNING RECESS)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  COURT:  Mr. Grant, do counsel have anything further to say  on the matter we were discussing before the  adj ournment?  GRANT:  In light of what your comments were, I would just  like to proceed.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  And then we'll schedule a time to deal with the  objections next week.  I'll hear the evidence subject to the objection.  COURT  GRANT  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Before going into describing what occurred, Mrs.  McKenzie, could you explain to the court what you  meant when you said this was a "Gitksan adaawk"?  A  What I meant was that it involved the chiefs of  different houses of the three clans, like the Lax  Gibuu, the Lax See'l and the Giskaast, and each chief  House will have an adaawk of this thing because they  are all involved, the chiefs of the three clans are  involved in it.  Okay.  That's —  And that's what I meant when I say the Gitksan.  Maybe it will become more clear as to who was involved  when you start to describe the event.  Could you tell  the court what happened with respect to this Feast of  John Smith?  The Feast was held in Gitanmaax and of course this  being -- he's being the Lax See'l Chief so his  hosts -- I mean his guests would be of the Lax Gibuu  and Giskaast chiefs.  Now, at this Feasting only the head chiefs and the  sub-chiefs were at the Feasting because this is what  the intention of their first meeting was.  Q Could you tell the court what the first meeting was  that you're referring to, this was before the Feast  happened?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  Could you describe what happened at that?  A  Well, they -- the chiefs got together, the whole three  clans at Gitanmaax, and they discussed this matter of  not opening up to all the occasions and little  ceremonies that take place in the Feasting.  This is  beginning to fade.  They say it's going to fade away  if it's not put into the Feasting, so they decided  they formed a meeting. 460  1 Now, it was discussed by all the chiefs and the  2 only thing that would solve it is to have a Feasting  3 put on by a head -- one head chief, so when they got  4 this out the only person that came out and said "Well,  5 I'll be the one.  I'm going to put the Feasting on.",  6 the Lax See'l chief, and him being the chief, he said  7 "I'll — I'll put on the Feasting."  And he said  8 "You'll be my guests."  So the both clan agreed.  Now,  9 we said "If anything happens in that Feasting, you  10 don't have to put another Feasting on for  11 embarrassment."  He said "This is the only Feasting  12 that would be put on because" he said "you're the  13 brave one." he said "to put this Feasting on."  14 Q   Could you clarify -- who said he put on the Feast and  15 who was saying that you don't have to put on another  16 Feast?  17 A   The chief -- John Smith was the one that said that  18 he'd host that Feasting.  19 Q   Okay.  20 A  And that his guests would be the Lax Gibuu and the  21 Giskaast.  22 Q   Okay.  23 A  When that chief of the Lax See'l went in to put the  24 Feasting on, the head chiefs of the different Houses  25 of the clans, the Fireweed and the Lax Gibuu, and they  2 6 are the ones that informed John Smith that he didn't  27 have to put on another Feasting for embarrassment,  28 that would be -- he didn't have to do that because  29 this involved all the Houses of the chiefs of the  30 three clans.  31 Q   And this was the Houses of the chiefs at Gitanmaax?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Okay.  So can you go ahead and describe what happened?  34 A   They put on the Feast and like in the Feasting they  35 give out the food and they put money together in a pot  36 and while this contributing of this money two  37 policemans came into the Feasting House and they just  38 took the pot right out from -- in front of the people  39 in the Feasting House and they took it.  They took it  40 down to the police station.  41 Q   And this was the pot with money in it?  42 A   Yes, with the money in it.  43 Q   Now, they came back to the Feasting House and they  44 inquired who put -- who was the host of that Feasting  45 and the chief said it was John Smith, so they took him  46 and they took him to jail.  47 Q   And then what happened? they  461  1 A   He was held for 11 hours in jail, then all the chiefs  2 moved on to the court-house in Gitanmaax and  3 spoke.  They give their -- why they had put this  4 Feasting on.  5 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, are you talking now about a trial or are  6 you talking about going to the police station while he  7 was there for those 11 hours?  8 THE WITNESS: Well, I imagine it was a trial.  9 THE COURT:  All right.  10 THE WITNESS: Because each chief was questioned why they had put  this Feasting on and of course each chief had to say  what he thought about the banning of Feasting.  And was John Smith released?  Yes, he was released and the money was given back to  them.  Were Feasts held after that Feast in Gitanmaax?  Yes.  Yes.  That's the -- that's when the people start  using songs again in their Feasting, their naxnoks,  the invitations are -- tets went out, then there were  big Feastings for headstones at that time and totem  pole raising after that.  I'd like to move into another area.  This is an area  regarding the registered trap lines on your territory.  Do you know Richard Benson?  Yes, I do know.  And is he related to you?  Yes, he's part of my wil'nat'ahl.  And what House is he in?  He's in Luus's House.  Does Richard Benson have -- does he have your  permission or the permission of any other chief in  your House to trap on your territory?  Yes.  He got permission from my mother.  Okay.  And do you know if he has a registered trap  line on your territory?  Not Richard Benson.  I don't recall.  He may have.  Esther Holland was your mother?  Yes.  Do you know if she has a registered trap line on your  territory?  Yes, she has.  And it's still in her name?  Yes, it's still in her name.  And she was the holder of the name Mediik?  Yes.  And where did you describe that Mediik -- Mediik's  11  12  13 MR.  GRANT  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q 462  1  2  3  A  4 MR.  GRANT  5 THE  COURT  6 MR.  GRANT  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  right to be in -- which part of Gyolugyet's territory  does Mediik have rights to?  Xsa'an Lo'op.  Number 93 on Exhibit 6.  Thank you.  Do you yourself have a registered trap line on your  territory?  The other day you asked me that same question and I  said no, but after I said it I realized that I made an  error there because letters from -- the Wildlife in  Smithers here will send us forms about the  registration and one -- one was for my mother and I  had one.  And you've referred to Wallace Danes earlier?  Yes.  And do you know, does he have a registered trap line  on your territory?  Yes, he has a trap line, that's Win skahl Guuhl.  Now, under Gitksan law would he have a right to have  access to your territory?  No.  I'll say no to that, but him being -- he need to  go through the Am Nigwootxw and occasionally he'll be  permitted to go and trap on that place.  If he asked you for permission to trap on your  territory, would you as Gyolugyet give him that  permission?  Yes, I would because he's the son of the late Joseph  Danes.  Now, William Blackwater, do you know where his  territory is is in relation to your territory?  Between Gyolugyet's and he's one of the neighbours.  Of Gyolugyet's territory?  Of Gyolugyet's territory.  Okay.  Do you know -- do you know the names of any --  do you know what side of your territory he's on?  It's further north of Gyolugyet's territory, I believe  it is .  Do you know if he has a registered trap line that goes  partly into your territory?  Yes, through Wildlife that's what happened that he  overlapped onto Gyolugyet's territory.  Does he have any claim to any part of your territory  under Gitksan law?  No.  Do you know if he traps on your territory or does he  trap on your territory? 463  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  MR.  GRANT  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  MR.  GRANT  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  MR.  PLANT  45  46  47  THE  COURT  No.  Okay.  And he is the holder of the name Baskyelaxha,  number two on the list, My Lord?  Yes.  Now, you've referred to Djogaslee yesterday, who's the  holder of that name today?  Walter Wilson.  Okay.  And what clan is he in?  That's number five, My  Lord.  Lax See'l.  Do you know if he has a registered trap line that goes  into part of your territory?  Yes.  I do know.  Do you know why that is?  Through Wildlife again when he went to the office, and  there's a overlap again there and I was informed about  it.  Does -- is he -- where is his territory in relation to  your territory?  It's facing -- on the paper or on the map it's on the  left side further -- further up north.  :   If you want you can look at the map which is  Exhibit 5 and point it out to the court.  :  Well, you can tell us where it is.  Is it the top  left corner of the plain territory?  Well, for the record it's here, My Lord.  All right.  It's on the left-hand side as she's indicated on the  western boundary.  :  All right.  Now, does he have any rights under Gitksan law to be  on your territory?  No.  Okay.  Now, can you tell the court why your mother  would have registered the territory and why you've  registered your territory?  Because of Indian agent going from one House to  another, to each House in Gitanmaax, warning us that  we have to have these territories and trap lines  registered or we lose the territory.  :   What did he say would happen when he said you would  lose them?  What do you mean by that?  : Before the witness answers, this evidence sounds to  me like it falls in much the same category of the  evidence that we heard earlier about the Feast.  :  I wouldn't think so, Mr. Plant, with respect, it 464  MR.  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  2 6 THE  27  2 8 THE  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31  32  33  34  35 THE  PLANT  GRANT  Q  A  A  Q  A  A  COURT:  would seem to me that this is evidence not to prove  the truth of what would happen, but explaining why she  did what she did.  : Yes, on that basis I withdraw the objection.  Go ahead, Mrs. McKenzie.  Describe what -- you were  explaining why you registered your trap line and you  said the Indian agent came around and told you you  would lose the trap line.  What did you understand by  that?  Well, he said that it will be just registered in the  place of a trap line.  Well, at that time he only said  the trap line, so this is why my mother registered  Xsa'an Lo'op.  Because she thought all that was required was to  register that part where Mediik's trap line was?  Yes.  Uh-huh.  And what about when you registered the trap  line?  Well, I had it registered too.  Xsihl Guugan is the  creek that my name is under on the registration.  That's 94, My Lord.  Was that area of Xsihl Guugan registered before by  anyone before you registered it?  No.  Well, you're saying that you registered it for the  same reason as your mother did?  WITNESS:   Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  I'd like to move into the last main area of your  evidence, Mrs. McKenzie.  I'd like you as Gyolugyet to  explain to the court why you authorized this court  action and what you are seeking out of this court  case?  COURT:  Well, Mr. Grant with respect, isn't that clear in  36 the Statement of Claim?  Surely the witness doesn't  37 have to tell me what's in the Statement of Claim.  38 MR. GRANT:  Well, I'm anticipating that it's — yes, it's clear  39 in the Statement of Claim to a certain degree, but I'm  40 anticipating this is an area that she may be  41 cross-examined on and I wish to give her an  42 opportunity to explain it now in direct rather than on  43 cross.  44 THE COURT:  Well, I'm reluctant, Mr. Grant, to stop you, but  45 there have to be some limits to the leeway extended to  46 a witness, and it doesn't seem to me to be of any  47 particular importance, from a legal point of view, as 465  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  MR.  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31  32  33 THE  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  4 3 MR.  44  45  4 6 THE  47  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  to why she authorized the commencement of the action.  There's a legal question that may arise in that  regard, and if there was evidence that bore on that  question I would say yes, but I don't see what it  would be.  As to what she's claiming or hopes to get  out of the lawsuit, that's a subjective matter that I  can't deal with.  I can recall cases of liable where people say "Why  did you bring this action?" and expect them to say  "Well, it wasn't money I wanted, I brought it to  indicate my character." or something.  Well, those are  subjective matters the court can't deal with.  We're  bound by the pleadings and that's as far as it can  properly be carried.  I, with respect, doubt the  usefulness or the admissibility of the evidence the  witness could properly give in response to the  question you've just asked, but I'll hear you if you  want to press it, keeping in mind of course you have  is it 54 plaintiffs, and if they're all to be asked  the same question or even a representative number of  them it will add greatly to the length of the trial  and I really don't see how it can be of any assistance  at all.  She's here and she's brought her action and  she'll -- if she succeeds she'll get the remedies that  are set out in the Statement of Claim, nothing more  and nothing less, regardless of what her subjective  wishes or expectations are in that regard.  Let me ask another question, My Lord, on this?  Yes.  Can you describe to the court what you see as  Gyolugyet that you wish to happen in the future with  respect to your territory?  Well, again Mr. Grant, I'm not going to stop you.  I  have serious reservations about the usefulness of the  answers.  What she sees for the future must be a  widely varying concept depending upon the result of  the lawsuit and other things.  If she succeeds she  will be able to accomplish whatever she's able to  accomplish in that context.  If she fails, I can't be  terrorized by what her answer might be, so I -- again  I have difficulties seeing how I can be assisted by  the answer.  Yes, My Lord.  I wish to refer the court to  paragraph 14 of the Declarations on page 15 of the  Statement of Claim.  I don't think I have it.  Is there a record filed  yet?  I have a copy of the latest Statement of Claim 466  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14 THE  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27 THE  28  29  30  31  32  33 MR.  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 MR.  41  42 THE  43 THE  44  45  46  47  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  on my desk.  I don't have it here.  MR. GRANT:  There's a copy.  The court has a copy here of the  latest Statement of Claim.  :  Thank you.  : And the record we were -- it's being assembled. I  anticipated a further amended defence of Canada, but  we're proceeding with the defences that we have.  :  Yes.  Paragraph 14?  :  Yes.  Paragraph 14 is that "We're seeking a  declaration that this honourable court shall retain  jurisdiction to resolve all outstanding disputes  between the parties as to the implementation of the  declarations and orders of this honourable court."  COURT:  Yes?  GRANT:  So we're seeking a declaration for residual relief.  Now, in asking this witness, the first witness that  you have heard these questions, I can assure you it is  not our -- counsel's intent to ask this question of  all 54 plaintiffs or to ask this question of all  witnesses for the plaintiff.  But we -- it is my  submission that it would be of assistance to you with  respect to that prayer for relief to hear from this  chief or from one or a few chiefs in a representative  way what they see as the outcome of the future with  respect to their territory.  To that end I'm asking to  lead it.  COURT:  Well, I'm not legally persuaded, Mr. Grant, that  paragraph 14 is a matter that will be resolved on  evidence.  I think it follows, if at all, as a matter  of law, but in view of your assurances and no counsel  having yet objected at least, I'll allow you to ask  that question of this witness.  GRANT  Q  Mrs. McKenzie, could you tell the court what you see  as -- what you would like as Gyolugyet to see happen  in the future with respect to your territory?  A I'd like to see that -- that the laws of the Gitksan  be recognized and that the territories will still be  authorized by the chiefs.  GRANT:   What do you mean the territories will be authorized  by the chief?  Can you explain that?  COURT:  You mean managed by the chiefs?  WITNESS:   Managed by the chiefs; that whatever resources  that are found on the territories, they have to accept  the power of the head chiefs and to go to the owners  of these territories first before anything happens on  these territories.  Like what I'll say, mining is done 467  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12 MR.  GRANT  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  4 7 MR.  GRANT  on the -- some of these territories or coal is or even  oil.  I'd like to see that the head chiefs that own  these territories would be involved in whatever it is.  They have to be notified first and be in with the  discussions of how these things will work because if  these things work there has to be roads going into the  territory.  Now, I'd like to see that we as Gitksan, Gitksan  chiefs, be involved and for them to notify us of these  things before starting anything up on the resources of  our territory.  There's one other question I'd like to ask you or one  other short series of questions.  From your knowledge  of the adaawk, did the Gitksan have clans before they  first knew of the arrival of the white man?  Yes.  Did they have Houses before they first knew of the  arrival of the white man?  Yes.  Did they have chiefs before they first knew of the  arrival of the white man?  Yes.  Did they have wil'nat'ahl before they first knew that?  Yes, yes.  Did they have Feasts before they first knew of the  arrival of the white man?  Yes, they had Feast before.  Did they have wilxsi bakxws before they first knew of  the arrival of the white man?  Yes.  Did they have separate and distinct territories before  they first knew of the arrival of the white man?  Yes, they had.  Did they have songs before they first knew of the  arrival of the white man?  Yes.  Did they have ayuuks or crests before they first knew  of the arrival of the white man?  Yes, they did have.  Did they have their own language before they first  knew of the arrival of the white man?  Yes.  Did they have their own ayook or laws before they  first knew of the arrival of the white man?  Yes, they did have.  :   My Lord, I would ask the court's indulgence to have 468  1 a brief break.  I believe I'm finished my direct  2 generally, but I would like a chance to speak with my  3 colleagues.  4 THE COURT:  All right.  We'll take a few minutes.  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  6  7 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS)  8  9 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  10 a true and accurate transcript of the  11 proceedings herein to the best of my  12 skill and ability.  13  14    15 Tanita S. French  16 Official Reporter  17 xh2 Mary McKenzie (for Plaintiffs)  18  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER LUNCHEON RECESS)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR: Witness, I remind you, you are still under oath.  4 THE WITNESS: Yes.  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  6 MR. GRANT:  Just one area I wish to ask the witness a question  7 about.  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q   Mrs. McKenzie we have been discussing over the last  10 week your House and your Gyolugyet.  Is there a  11 Wet'suwet'en chief with the name Gyolugyet?  12 A   Yes, there is.  13 Q   Is there any relationship between you and your house  14 and the Wet'suwet'en-Gyolugyet?  15 A   Yes, there is.  16 Q   Could you explain that for the Court?  17 A   It's through marriage is how we are related.  18 Q   Yes.  19 A  A lady from House of Gyolugyet married into the  2 0 Wet'suwet'en.  21 Q   When you say the House of Gyolugyet, you mean your  22 House?  23 A   Yes.  And when that lady left Galdo'o and Kispiox, she  24 moved to Wet'suwet'en territory, and of course it's up  25 to the House Chief that when -- especially a lady  26 leaves, they -- this lady's given three or four names  27 because the children are going to come into the  28 marriage, and this is why the family would give three  29 names, even four to this lady, to take with her on the  30 Wet'suwet'en.  This is what happened.  That's why we  31 have the same names, Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en,  32 today.  33 Q   And do you know any of the other names that were taken  34 from your House by the Wet'suwet'en?  You say there  35 were three or four names.  36 A  Mediik, Woos and Gyolugyet.  37 Q   Did any of Gyolugyet's territory get transferred over  38 to the Wet'suwet'en this time? 39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  No.  Any of the crests?  None.  Any of the songs?  None.  Do you know when this happened?  In other words, where  was the house of Gyolugyet when this happened?  It happened when Kuldo Village was still people living  there. 469  Okay.  And how have you learned of this history?  Who  told you?  Well, when I became Kwamoon -- especially at that time  I can --  I can prove this, when I took the name of  Kwamoon, then I was informed by my mother that he said  that you'd be asked or invited to a Feasting and if  invitation is given to you from the Wet'suwet'en  people, he said don't be alarmed if you hear any of  our names of the Gyolugyet House there because -- and  she told me, they said it's through marriage, that's  why the Wet'suwet'en people have the names.  Okay.  Have you attended Feasts of the Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  And who do you sit near at the Wet'suwet'en Feasts?  When -- I always go to the Moricetown Feasting, and  I'm seated beside the witness, so  Wet'suwet'en-Gyolugyet.  Okay.  And is there a way of distinguishing you when  they call you names?  Yes, they call us by Gyolugyet, Kispiox,  Gyolugyet-Wet'suwet'en.  Those are my questions on direct.  : Thank you, Mr. Grant.  Mr. Plant and Mr. Macaulay,  have you decided who will cross-examine first?  LAY: Yes, My Lord.  I have agreed that the Province  should cross-examine.  27 THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Plant.  28 MR. PLANT:  Thank you, My Lord.  29  30 CROSS- EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  31  Mrs. McKenzie, where do you live?  I live in Gitanmaax and you hear a name Hazelton too.  You live in the town of Hazelton on the Reserve?  I live in the section of Hazelton but our place in  that area is on Reserve.  The house that you live in, is that on the Reserve?  Yes.  Did you vote in the last Provincial election?  Yes.  Where are you registered as a voter?  Hazelton.  One of the candidates in that election was Gordon  Sebastian, wasn't it?  Yes.  And is he a Gitksan person?  Yes.  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23 THE  COURT  24  2 5 MR.  MACAU  26  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A 470  Have you ever voted in an election for the Gitanmaax  Band Council?  Yes.  What does the Band Council do?  The Band Council looks after the village, like housing  or water and pipes and sewers.  These are the types  that they would maintain, look after.  Do you receive an old age pension?  Yes, I have.  And does your husband also receive an old age pension?  Yes.  You were born and raised in the village of Kispiox; is  that correct?  I was born in Kispiox but it was 1924 when we left  Kispiox, and I lived in Hazelton with my parents.  And you went to school first in Kispiox?  Yes.  And then in Hazelton?  Yes.  And then after that you attended the residential  school in Edmonton?  Yes.  That's the United Church Residential School?  Yes.  And you are a member of the Catholic Church?  Yes.  You have testified that you are the chief of a Gitksan  House and the name of the House is Gyolugyet?  Yes.  And it has another name?  Yes, the name of the House is Ts'im Ansk'oots xan.  :  Need the spelling of that?  : I can't -- it's in the record already.  Perhaps the  interpreter could assist.  Would you please say it again so that the Interpreter  could make a note of it.  Ts'im Ansk'oots xan.  39 THE TRANSLATOR: Did you want the spelling?  40 THE COURT:  Yes please.  41 THE TRANSLATOR: T-s-i-m A-n-s-s-k-o-o-t-x, underlined, a-n  42 (sic).  4 3 THE COURT:  A-n?  44 THE TRANSLATOR  Yes.  45 THE COURT:  We have had that before.  46 MR. PLANT: It was during the first few hours of the examination  47 in chief, I believe.  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32 THE  COURT  33 MR.  PLANT  34  35 MR.  PLANT  36  Q  37  38  A 471  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  I have it.  2 MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  And, Mrs. McKenzie, your chief's name is also  Gyolugyet?  Yes.  And when did you receive that name?  Was it 1949 or  1959?  Gyolugyet?  Yes.  1949, totem pole.  Now, the Gitksan have a word for House and that word  is Wilp, W-i-l-p?  Yes.  And you are also a member of a clan, you called the  Lax Gibuu?  Yes.  And that's the Wolf clan?  Yes.  And the Gitksan have a word for clan, and that word is  p'tek?  P'tek.  Thank you.  23 THE COURT:  How is that spelled please?  24 THE WITNESS:  As we go along you'll get used to it.  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  P-t-e-e-k (sic).  2 6 MR. PLANT:.  Now, as I recall your evidence, was that there are  three Gitksan clans and my note is that they are the  Wolf clan, the Fireweed clan and the Frog clan.  Yes, that's right.  Perhaps it's safer if I don't try to pronounce it.  There are also Gitksan people at Kitwangar, aren't  there?  Yes.  And what are the Gitksan clans at Kitwangar?  They have the Lax See'l, Lax Gibuu, Giskaast and Lax  Skiik.  There is another clan?  There is another clan.  That's the Eagle clan?  Eagle clan.  So there really are four Gitksan clans, aren't there?  Not in our north part, like in Kispiox, not in Kispiox  or Gitanmaax.  Are there any Eagle clan members at Kitsegukla?  Yes, there is.  Are there any Eagle houses at Kitsegukla?  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  472  Yes.  Do you know what the names of those Houses are?  I don't know the Houses -- names of the Houses.  Is it correct to refer to you as the head chief of the  House at Gyolugyet?  Yes.  When the first statement I made on Wednesday of  last week, I referred that I was Xsgogam Simoogit,  which means that the first chief, high chief of the  house.  First chief or the high chief?  High chief.  And there are other chiefs, that is other people in  your House who are the sub-chiefs?  Yes.  And the three names that we have heard you describe  are Kwamoon --  Yes.  -- Mediik and Hlo'oxs?  Yes.  And the people who hold those names are Pearl Tromley,  Ben McKenzie junior and Fedelia 0'Brian?  Yes.  And they are your children?  They are my children.  And Ben junior and Fedelia 0'Brian, they are chiefs  but they are not plaintiffs in this case, is that  right?  Yes.  And so not all of the hereditary chiefs are  plaintiffs; is that right?  They are not named as  plaintiffs?  Would you rephrase that again.  Well, you represent, as I understand it, you represent  Mediik and Hlo'oxs in this case; is that correct?  I represent Kwamoon in this case.  Do you also speak for Ben, your son Ben McKenzie  junior and your daughter Fedelia?  I approached them when this court case -- and I  approached them and Kwamoon was the first to give me  her permission that I would represent her, and Mediik  and Hlo'oxs said that if I could represent them too,  but I represent the three of them.  But of the three of them, only Kwamoon is named as a  plaintiff.  Do you know that that's so?  Yes, because in this Court she gave me the idea that I  worked with her on -- in our -- when I knew there were  Interrogatories are put out and she -- her and I were 1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  473  together on it, so at that time she said you might as  well represent me as Kwamoon, as the plaintiff.  Tell me, if you know, why it is that Mediik and  Hlo'oxs are not named as plaintiffs?  They just didn't think it was, at that time when I  approached them, they didn't think that they should,  and then after awhile they talked to me that it was  all right if they -- I would represent them, but  Kwamoon was the only person that came forth and told  Court that I would represent her House.  If I understand your evidence correctly, there was a  time when your son, Ben, and your daughter, Fedelia  0'Brian, were not sure about whether they wanted to be  a part of this case.  They are aware about this case but at that time when I  approached them, they didn't feel that it was a  serious thing until later, so they just didn't want --  they talked to me that they didn't want to be  plaintiffs, that I'd represent them.  When was it that you first approached them?  I approached them in '84.  Yes, '84.  And when was it that they changed their mind?  '85, because they know then that I was getting all  these information together for our House, so this is  when they realized that they have to be in it, Mediik  and Hlo'oxs.  Would I be correct in saying that this was really a  personal decision on their part?  They understand that they have an obligation that they  are the head, they are the chief of a House, and this  is why they had me to represent them after because  they feel that I more knowledgeable than they are.  That was their decision?  Yes.  Where does Pearl Trombley live?  She lives right in Hazelton at the present time.  She's down in Vancouver in the hospital.  And your son, Ben junior, he also lives in Hazelton?  Yes.  And Fedelia lives in Terrace?  Yes, she lives in Terrace right now.  Is Pearl married to Ken Tremblay?  Yes.  Is he a Gitksan person?  No.  And I think you have told us earlier this morning that  your son, Ben, had worked for the Department of 474  1 Highways for sometime?  2 A Yes.  3 Q Does he still work for the Highways Department?  4 A He still does.  5 Q And Fedelia was married or perhaps she still is  6 married to Lloyd Morrison?  7 A No.  8 Q She was married?  9 A She was living with him.  10 Q And did they have children?  11 A Yes, they had two boys and two girls.  12 Q And Lloyd Morrison is also a hereditary chief?  13 A Yes.  14 Q He's Wiigyet?  15 A He's Wiigyet, yes.  16 Q He's one of the Wiigyets?  17 A Yes.  There is another Wiigyet.  18 Q And is Fedelia now married to Mel Bevin?  19 A No.  20 Q Do they live together?  21 A No.  22 Q Have they ever?  23 A Yes, but they are separated.  24 Q And Mel Bevin is a xshiam xshian person?  25 A Xshiam xshian, yes.  26 Q Your daughter, Wilma, who is your youngest daughter?  27 A Yes.  2 8 Q She lives in Richmond?  29 A Yes.  30 Q Does she have a job outside the home?  31 A Not anymore, after she married Ron Macilvey.  32 Q And so she's married?  33 A Yes, she is.  34 Q Is her husband Gitksan?  35 A No.  36 Q Does Wilma have a seat at Gyolugyet's table in the  37 Feast Hall?  38 A Yes.  39 Q Where is that?  40 A It's -- there is a section in table of tables in the  41 Feast House where the nieces and the nephews and  42 brothers and sisters for the children of the head  43 chief, and there is a section on those tables that  44 these people occupy.  45 Q Is Wilma a chief?  46 A She has a name, Indian name, but not a head chief.  47 Q She has a name but it's not a chief's name? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  475  No, that's right, correct.  And that's why she sits down with the nieces and the  nephews?  Yes.  Did you give Wilma a name when she was born?  No.  Why was that?  Why did you not give her a name?  At the time of the birth, Feasting was banned during  the 40's, so we felt that it was no need at that time  to have a Feasting for giving names.  And you have to have a Feast in order to give the  name?  Yes, we have to.  So when did Wilma -- let me ask this.  When Wilma was  three or four years old, did she have her ears pierced  the same way you did?  No.  And was that because the Feasts were banned?  Yes.  Does the fact that Wilma didn't have a name at birth  have anything to do with the fact that she doesn't  hold a chief's name now?  When -- in her teens, 1956, I think it is, she went to  school in Port Alberni school down in Vancouver  Island.  Perhaps -- that didn't quite respond to my question.  You said that she didn't have a name when she was born  or she wasn't given a name when she was born because  Feasts were banned at the time?  Yes, that's correct.  What I want to suggest to you is that there might have  been another reason that she didn't get a name and  that was because she wasn't a chief or going to be a  chief.  Would you rephrase that question again please.  Sure.  And I'll rephrase it by asking a different  question.  All right.  Does every Gitksan baby get a name or only the babies  that are going to be chiefs?  In Gitksan way every child that's born has to have a  Indian name.  Now, that's the way it should be done?  Yes.  Is it always done that way?  It's always been done that way in the past up to the  banning of the Feasting. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  476  Mrs. McKenzie, do you know when the banning of the  Feasting took place?  Around in this area, it was very strict in the 1930's  and part of 40's.  So after that -- after it became less strict, thinking  about the time period between then and now, do all  Gitksan babies get names at birth?  Yes.  All of them?  Yes.  After -- you see, after the ban and then it recorrect  itself, then just imagine how many babies were born,  and they are in there, 6 or 7 years old, then they are  given their name because it's open to us again that  are doing the Feasting; and we are not afraid of  putting any Feastings on, so all the names are given  to the children, maybe not at birth when it was banned  but when they reach the age of seven to ten or even in  their teens, they have given a name.  And Feasting is  given when these names are given to these children.  Now, referring back again to your daughter, Wilma, she  has six children, I believe you have said.  And I  think I can help you by asking if Exhibit 2 could be  given to you, and in particular tab two.  The document  at tab two.  Oh.  Do you have that?  Yes.  That's the genealogy.  Yes.  It says Wilps, Gyolugyet, Kwamoon at the top?  Yes.  This document was made by Heather Harris, wasn't it?  Yes.  And she's a Gitksan person, isn't she?  No.  She's not a Gitksan person?  No.  Not a member of any of the Gitksan Houses?  She was adopted.  And so when you are adopted, do you become a Gitksan  person according to Gitksan law?  Yes.  And even in the other law, she married an Indian  at Gitksan, so apparently she's a Gitksan.  But you told me she was adopted.  Did you mean that  she was adopted according to Gitksan law?  Yes.  Because she's married to a Gitksan and she's a 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7 MR.  PLANT  8 THE  COURT  9 MR.  PLANT  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  477  non-Gitksan to start off --  By birth?  By birth.  So she has to be adopted in order for her  to get a name.  What House was she adopted into?  She's adopted into Niist's House.  That's N-i-i-s-t.  Thank you.  Mrs. McKenzie, you will agree with me that one of the  duties you have as a chief is to keep track of all of  the members of your House?  Yes.  And one of the powers you have is the right to give  out the names?  Yes.  And these are the names that belong to the House at  Gyolugyet?  Yes, it has to be every time.  I give out names, it  has to belong to the House of Gyolugyet.  And you are the person who makes the decision about  giving out the name?  Yes.  Well, let's look at this chart.  And can you see where  your name appears on the chart.  It says "Mary  Holland, Gyolugyet"?  Yes.  And underneath that it says "B 1918".  Actually your  birth date is 1919?  Yes, there is an error right there.  Yes.  Now, one of the -- underneath that then there is  a line that has the names of your children and some of  their husband's were -- or perhaps all of them?  Yes.  And Wilma's name is given there.  Do you see Wilma's  name?  Yes.  And below that you see the names of her six children?  Yes.  Carla, Alice, Marie, Laura, Richard and Gordon?  Yes.  Could you tell me what Alice Marshall's Gitksan name  was at birth?  She didn't get her name 'til the Feasting we give when  Amelia Wilson died and that was in 1983.  But how --  Because Wilma, after she finished school in Port 1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  478  Alberni, she didn't return home, she stayed down, and  that's when she lived with Ron down there, so just --  probably just once or twice a year she comes to visit  us, so this is the reason why her children never got  any names until after there were -- in '83.  And Alice Marshall's birth date isn't there.  About  how old was she when she got her name in 1983?  I'll  ask this.  Was she a full grown woman?  Yes.  Thank you.  In fact she now has a son, Mathew --  Yes.  -- doesn't she?  Yes.  Does that son have a name, a Gitksan name?  No.  Now, back up on this chart here.  Up beside your name  there is your brother's name, George Holland.  Do you  see that?  Yes.  And below his name there is a Gitksan name and I think  it's pronounced Dibe?  Yes.  That's his Gitksan name?  Yes.  Is your brother still alive?  Yes.  And he's in his 60's?  Yes.  Is he -- where does he live?  In Vancouver.  And is that name, Dibe, is that a chief's name?  It's a chief's name and then a Nax Nok.  So is your brother, George, a chief in Gyolugyet's  House?  Yes.  And the name, Dibe, is also a special name, also a Nax  Nok name?  Yes.  Would you say he is one of the sub-chiefs in your  House?  I would say that, yes.  Does he have his own territory?  He goes under Gyolugyet's territory.  Now, if your brother lives in Vancouver, does he come  up to every Feast?  No.  He comes up sometimes? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  2 6 THE  COURT  27  2 8 THE  REPOR1  2 9 MR.  PLANT  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  479  No.  What happens to his place at the Feast table when he's  not there.  His name is always mentioned in the Feasting of a  seating of our table.  Does someone sit there in his place or does the chair  remain vacant?  The chair remains vacant.  When he dies, will there be a Burial Feast and a  Headstone Feast?  There will be, because he hold the name of a chief.  Now, could you take this book that's marked Exhibit 2  and turn to tab 3, and the second page of tab 3 is a  big drawing of a table there and it says "modern  seating" on it.  Yes.  And on the right-hand side of that page, the first  name there is Violet Brown and her Indian name?  Yes.  I won't try to pronounce it.  And then there are some  names:  Kwamoon, Mediik, Woos, Hlo'oxs, Suu wii gus,  Hak', Dibe and Vera Tait's name.  Do you see those?  Yes.  And are all those people chiefs in the House of  Gyolugyet?  :  Just a moment please, Mr. Plant.  Did you get those  names Madam Reporter?  rER:  Yes, My Lord.  So Violet Brown -- and maybe I will try it --  Gadiilou?  Gadiilou.  She is a chief in the House of Gyolugyet?  Yes.  Does she have her own House though also?  She -- Gadiilou is in the House of Gyolugyet.  Now, on the other side of the page there is Geoffrey  Harris senior, Luus?  Yes.  And he has his own House, doesn't he?  Yes, he does.  So the fact that Violet Brown sits immediately to your  left at the table, that doesn't mean that she's the  chief of a House, does it?  With this name there, Gadiilou, she's a chief of  Gyolugyet's House.  Would you say that Jeff Harris senior is also a chief 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  480  in Gyolugyet's House?  No.  So there is a difference?  There is a difference there.  There is two houses  there, Gyolugyet's and Luus.  And Kwamoon is also there beside Violet Brown?  Yes.  And she has her own House?  When Peter Robinson was Kwamoon, that House was still  there, but when Peter Robinson died with Kwamoon, and  then Mediik, my mother died, and then Woos, that's  Marian Jack, and Hlo'oxs is a chief, they all passed  on.  So these four chiefs were quite young at that  time when they got their names, so this is why they  all go back into Gyolugyet's House.  They all -- the  older generation had all these Houses, these four  Houses that were mentioned here.  Right.  But since they all passed away, new ones, young people  came in and so they all went into Gyolugyet's House.  Did Gadiiloo ever have her own House?  At that -- there is a -- the way this thing is set up  now, but Gadiiloo was in with Woos's House.  Woos had  a House.  Why does Violet Brown sit beside you, right beside  you?  When her mother died, Woos, she was the next one to  her mother, and at that time we didn't have anyone to  give their name, so it was pointed out to a Feasting.  You see, this is how the Feasting goes, that whatever  we decide the family, the Wil'nat'ahl decides, and  this is what was decided, that Gadiiloo would sit  alongside of Gyolugyet.  And that's a decision that is made by the Wil'nat'ahl?  Yes.  And it's -- starts -- the decision is started  out from Gyolugyet and then she approaches the other  chiefs and decisions made and everybody feel that that  is the right way to have our table set this way.  And it depends to some extent, doesn't it, on whether  people are younger or older, how long they have been a  chief and things like that?  It's not cast in stone  forever, is it?  It changes?  Yes, the names of the chiefs changes.  And people sit in different places?  Yes.  Not the head chiefs of a House, that seat is  there from generation to generation.  But the people down the sides of the table, they 481  1 change?  2 A   Yes, they change.  3 Q   Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago about the  4 Interrogatories.  Do you remember being asked to  5 answer some questions in writing called  6 Interrogatories?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And you swore an affidavit, didn't you, that said that  9 the answers that you gave were true?  Do you remember  10 that?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Well, let me just show you this affidavit and ask you  13 if you can confirm for me that the signatures on the  14 second page above your name is your signature.  15 A   Yes, that's my signature.  16 Q   Could you turn to question 24.  17 MR. PLANT: I have a copy of that for your lordship.  18 THE COURT:  Thank you.  19 MR. PLANT:.  2 0 Q   Have you found that yet?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And the question reads "What are the names, places of  23 residence, pages and occupations of the members of  24 your House?"  And then the answer is the following:  25 "Members of my House whom I recall at this time and  26 their places of residence and approximate ages".  You  27 see, there is a list there of approximately 25 names.  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Don't worry about the account, that's not important.  30 When I look at this and I look at the document in the  31 second page of tab 3 of Exhibit 2, which is the modern  32 seating, I see that you have left out Violet Brown's  33 name on this list, which is in answer to question 24.  34 So you forgot -- when you answered question 24 you  35 forgot that Violet Brown was in your House?  36 A   This is my brother, myself, my children, my  37 grandchildren, great grandchildren.  Now, if they ask  38 me about my Wil'nat'ahl, I'd have to give the names of  39 Violet Brown, her children, her grandchildren.  So  40 that's the Wil'nat'ahl.  41 Q   So there is a difference between Wil'nat'ahl and  42 House?  43 A  Wil'nat'ahl means when there is more than one House.  44 You see, we have four houses and Gyolugyet, Mediik,  45 Hlo'oxs and Kwamoon.  Now, Violet Brown is mentioned  46 there with all her children.  That's all the  47 Wil'nat'ahl.  Now, with the seating of the table to 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  482  Luus's across from us, that's still our Wil'nat'ahl;  and as I mentioned before, that Wii elaast and Amagyet  and all the children in that House is my Wil'nat'ahl  as well.  I thought you said earlier that Violet Brown was in  the House of Gyolugyet?  Yes.  Well, I may be mixing up my terms here.  If she's in  the House, then she should be on the list.  Yes.  You understand that question?  Yes, I understand, but the way it was reported to me,  that I only put the names of myself, my brother, my  children and my grandchildren, and that's how I put it  there.  If I was asked for my Wil'nat'ahl, I would  have it all on there.  If I asked you to tell me who the members of your  House were, would you tell me Violet Brown?  Yes.  Well, let's -- let me look again at -- or let's look  again at the answer that you gave to question 24.  As  I said, I think there is about 25 names there, and you  have said that that's your brother and your children  and your grandchildren and some of your great  grandchildren?  Yes.  Now, as I look at this, there is no one here who lives  on Gyolugyet's territory, is there?  No.  And there is at least 15 of these names who are people  who live outside the Gitksan territory altogether.  Would you agree with me?  If you would like to count  them up, we could do that.  Would you rephrase that question again.  Well, when I look under the column "residence" and I  add up all the people who have given their -- you have  given their places of residence for, and I see about  15 names there of people that don't live in the  Gitksan territory at all, they live in Vancouver or  Terrace or Richmond or Chilliwack; would you agree  with me?  They are still Gitksan, no matter where they live, but  they are still Gitksan.  I wasn't suggesting that they weren't.  But you will  agree with me --  Yes, I'll agree to that.  Now, apart from your brother and yourself, have any of 483  the people whose names appear on this list ever used  the resources of Gyolugyet's territory?  What there is here, they all very young, and there is  a lot of young women there and young men and even  today some of these people, young people, are still  attending school.  So the answer, with an explanation, is no?  No.  :   Well, perhaps before we ask that question, I wonder  if it might be convenient to mark this as the next  exhibit.  : I'm not familiar with any particular practise of  this regard. Do counsel have any views in whether  this should be marked?  :  It's not a matter of great importance.  :  Well, there is no doubt that you are entitled to put  the answers in, if that's your wish, but I would be  glad to hear if counsel had any particular views on  how that should be done or what its consequences are.  Mr. Grant or Mr. Macaulay, do you have any views?  I would say this, that my view would be that  counsel can put in this answer and it would be the  same as if he had asked that question and received  that answer on discovery, and he could make it part of  his case.  It wouldn't bind him, it would be evidence  in the case as would be the situation of discovery.  Is there any -- counsel don't have to answer now,  but -- unless I hear from counsel to the contrary,  that would be my view.  :  I agree -- we agree that that's the way it should go  in.  :  Mr. Macaulay?  33 MR. MACAULAY: Yes, I agree with that.  34 THE COURT:  All right.  This will be the next exhibit then.  It  35 will be number?  36 THE REGISTRAR:  9.  37 THE COURT:  Thank you.  38 (EXHIBIT NO. 9 - INTERROGATORIES)  3 9 MR. PLANT:  40 Q   Mrs. McKenzie, you have testified that Joseph Danes  41 held the name Gyolugyet before you?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And before that the name was held by Nicodemus  44 Gyolugyet?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Could you turn to the genealogy, which is at tab two  47 of Exhibit 2.  And I don't see Nicodemus Gyolugyet's  1  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  MR.  PLANT  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  15  MR.  PLANT  16  THE  COURT  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  THE  COURT 484  1 name.  Would you be able to tell me where it should be  2 on this genealogy?  3 THE COURT:  Well, Joseph Danes is here.  4 MR. PLANT: Yes, Joseph Danes is on the level one up from Mrs.  5 McKenzie's name, somewhat to the right-hand side of  6 the first sheet of that tab.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. PLANT:  I don't see, though, a name, Nicodemus Gyolugyet.  9 Q   Perhaps I could ask you this.  What was the  10 relationship between Nicodemus Gyolugyet and Joseph  11 Danes to your knowledge?  12 A   To my knowledge they would be both in Gyolugyet's  13 House.  14 Q   But you don't know if Nicodemus was an uncle or a  15 grandfather or a cousin?  16 A  With their ages, I would say they were cousins, of  17 that nature.  When we say a grandfather, he's very  18 seldom used in a House because a grandfather would be  19 of a different clan.  20 Q   Yes, I understand that.  Is it a part of the adaawk to  21 know how the various people who held the name before  22 you are related to you?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And what does the adaawk of Gyolugyet say about the  25 relationship between Nicodemus Gyolugyet and Joseph  26 Danes?  27 A   In Gitksan way, when people, especially their older  28 generations, when they speak about the chiefs ahead of  2 9 them -- and he may be a male or a female.  Now, they  30 are asked in Gitksan how they are related, and you  31 will hear that most answers would be she is he my  32 grandmother or she's my sister or she's my brother,  33 he's my brother, but that's the closest they can come  34 to tell how they are related, although they may not  35 be -- have the same parents and yet they call  36 themselves sisters.  You see, she may have a different  37 parent than the other lady has, but in Gitksan they  38 address themselves as sisters, in the same way with  39 brothers.  40 Q   So what does the adaawk of Gyolugyet say was the  41 relationship between Joseph Danes and Nicodemus  42 Gyolugyet?  43 A   Let me just think this over.  Between Nicodemus and  44 Joe Danes.  He would be referred as -- like I said  45 before, there is no grandfather is used, but in some  46 instance it is used.  You have to ask what clan is  47 that grandfather from.  So the grandfather that we 485  1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  MR.  GRANT  23  THE  COURT  24  25  MR.  PLANT  26  THE  COURT  27  THE  WITNE  28  MR.  PLANT  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  are, Lax Gibuu, if we talk about a grandfather, it's a  Lax Gibuu father, not the Lax See'l, as the case may  be.  Just so they -- if Joe Danes prefer addressing  Nicodemus as a grandfather and that's -- it's  understood that way in Gitksan.  I see.  Is that how he is referred to in the adaawk?  Yes.  And is that what your grandmother told you when you  were a little girl?  Yes.  Do you also know the adaawk of Kwamoon?  Yes.  What does the adaawk of Kwamoon say about the  relationship between Peter Robinson and Marian Brown?  The adaawk will go, address as cousins.  Could you look at the genealogy chart one more time  please.  Do you have that in front of you?  Yes.  And could you look on the right-hand side of the first  page and you will see about halfway up Marian Danes'  name.  :  There are two there, My Lord.  :  Yes, there are.  The top one or the bottom one, Mr.  Plant?  :  The bottom one  :  Yes.  3S:  This one here?  :  Yes, that page.  There are two Marian Danes  the other.  Yes.  And this Marian Danes, the lower one,  sister?  Sister, yes.  Did that Marian Danes have children?  No.  And Kate Danes -- off to the right on  have children?  No.  So the line stops there?  Yes.  Could you turn to the next tab in this book, which is  marked Exhibit 2 for Identification, and the first  page there says "old seating".  It's tab three.  Now, as I understand your evidence, you helped prepare  this?  Yes.  The lower of the two.  There is one and there is  is Joseph Danes'  did she 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  486  You gave the information?  Yes.  And this is the way that the seats used to be arranged  in the Feast House?  Yes.  You saw this when you were a little girl?  Yes.  At the first Feast that you attended?  Yes.  And people don't sit like this now, do they?  No.  Why is that?  Why is it that people don't sit like  this anymore?  There is one thing there Gitksan people expanded quite  a bit, and they -- these seatings were done in the  Long Houses of a chief they have, and use it as a  Feasting House.  Now, this is how they show -- this  seating here is better to understand than the seating  it is today, like this is the wall of this building,  this seating is, and we are against the wall, the top  level, because there is three levels there.  Now,  where the chief sit, the top, then in the center there  are other people of the same House, and then there is  the third one and there is the fireplace in the center  of these houses.  Now, we -- it shows here -- like you  see Gyolugyet's name, the next row down is Hak', Kenny  John.  To illustrate how the seating goes, this show  that when I die, Gyolugyet dies, this Hak' would  move -- he's in line of becoming the new chief.  And the new sitting doesn't show that, does it?  No, it doesn't.  And the seating changed because you went, you started  having the Feasts in the Band Halls?  Yes, in the community centre, yes.  So the people whose names appear here, they have never  actually sat like this?  No.  This is the old way of doing things, isn't it?  Yes.  And now there is a new way of doing things?  Yes.  And I believe the old way, it shows how people  change their seats.  Like we said in the tables now, I  sit at the end of the table and it doesn't show who  would sit in front of me; that if I died, that person  would move and take Gyolugyet's chair.  It wouldn't show your successor?  No, it wouldn't show. 487  Quite a few of the old customs have changed in your  lifetime, haven't they?  Yes.  You told us about the haircuts at Feasts?  Yes.  That's not done anymore but that is still a part of  the Feast that --  Yes.  You don't actually have haircuts.  And there is a Smoke Feast but now people don't use  smoke, they give out chocolate bars and candies?  Yes.  And people use money at Feasts?  Yes.  Did they used to use money when you were a little  girl?  Not very much at that time, but they used hides, like  moose hides, deer hides, beaver pelts, Hudson Bay  blankets we used.  You told us about that.  Nowadays the Gitksan people work at lots of  different jobs, don't they?  Yes.  Some of them are commercial fisherman?  Yes.  Some of them work in the saw mills?  Yes.  Some of them work for logging companies?  Yes.  And that's where they earn the money that they use at  the Feasts, isn't it?  Yes.  It doesn't come from the territory very often, does  it?  Unless it's a person who goes trapping on the  territory.  And in your case people don't go trapping on your  territory, do they?  Not at the present time, no.  So when you give money at that Feast, it doesn't  come -- it's not money that comes from Gyolugyet's  territory, is it?  Not anymore now because my husband doesn't trap  anymore, you see.  And the money that -- when he goes  to trap at my territory, I use that money when I'm  Feasting.  And when he goes to his territory, I use  that money as well in my Feasting.  47 THE COURT:  Mr. Plant, we are going to change Reporters.  Is it  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46 488  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  convenient to take the afternoon adjournment now?  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  SKILL AND ABILITY.  LORI OXLEY  OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON RECESS)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  MR. MACAULAY:  My Lord, before the cross-examination continues I  would like to draw the attention of the court and also  the counsel again to the question of the summaries of  the evidence of the next witnesses and the  genealogical charts that, as I understood them, that  we would be getting this week.  THE COURT:  Not in sight yet?  MR. MACAULAY: Not in sight yet.  In the case of the genealogical  charts, as Your Lordship will appreciate now having  heard the evidence of Mrs. McKenzie, it's very  difficult to follow a lot of that evidence without  charts of that kind.  There's -- heavy evidence is  made on relationships and connections and Your  Lordship has seen that in both the examination in  chief and also with cross-examination.  It's a  considerable handicap to counsel for the Attorney  General of Canada and it maybe for the Province too,  to carry on without those.  THE COURT:  Maybe Mr. Grant can report progress to us.  MR. GRANT:  I can report progress on that.  In fact, there's a  draft of the summaries that is on my desk and if I had  some time out of the courtroom I was intending to  review it tonight, and delivery it either later this  evening or tomorrow morning.  That's the summary of  the next witness and with respect to the genealogy.  That as well has just been delivered to me and what I  was -- it had been delivered to me earlier, but I  wanted to be sure that it was correct, and we've had  an opportunity to review it and to redraft it, so the 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  THE  COURT  0  1  MR.  PLANT  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  MR.  GRANT  489  correct version is provided, so I anticipate I'll be  able to deliver this to both counsel later tonight or  tomorrow morning, and Mr. Plant's indicated that one  of his team will be up here tomorrow morning and  that's what I anticipate I'll be able to do.  I don't  know, Mr. Macaulay hasn't raised this with me  personally, so I don't know whether someone is going  to be here tomorrow morning.  :  Mr. Plant, can you indicate how long you think you  might be with Mrs. McKenzie?  : I'll certainly be the balance of the day and I should  think I will take a good deal of Monday, although it's  difficult to foresee progress.  :  All right.  So Mr. Grant you think you can get a  summary of the next witness to your friends today or  tomorrow?  :  Yes, by tomorrow morning I would be able to do that.  18 MR. MACAULAY: We'll have somebody here to wait for it.  19 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, Mr. Plant will have someone here.  20 They may be able to help you in that regard.  I'll  21 leave that to counsel to work out.  All right.  Well,  22 I think that's a useful matter to discuss and if Mr.  23 Grant can perform as he has mentioned, we should be  24 all right.  Thank you.  Mr. Plant?  2 5 MR. PLANT:  26 Q   Thank you, My Lord.  Mrs. McKenzie, I want to touch on  27 a matter that you gave evidence about this morning and  28 I only have one question for you about it now and I'm  29 going to be coming back to it later.  But you told us  30 this morning that while you were away at residential  31 school, John Smith held a Feast in Gitanmaax or he  32 tried to and there was problems that happened as a  33 result of that that you've told us about.  My  34 recollection is that you said that the Feast occurred  35 in 1930; is that the date that you know?  36 A   That was the date John Smith related and he thought  37 that was the year because he wasn't sure himself of  38 exact year.  39 Q   And if he wasn't sure of the year, then presumably he  40 wouldn't be sure of the month either?  41 A   No.  No.  42 Q   And his name is John Smith?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. PLANT:   Thank you.  I'll be coming back to that area a  45 little bit later, but I have a few questions for you  46 now about totem poles.  Would you please take that  47 purplish-pink book again, Exhibit 2, and at Tab 8, the 490  THE  MR.  first page of Tab 8, there's a totem pole or a picture  which you identified earlier?  COURT:  Number two on page 1?  PLANT: Yes.  It's the photograph with the number two in the  bottom.  MR.  THE  8 MR.  9 THE  10 MR.  11 THE  12 MR.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  GRANT  COURT  MACAULAY  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  It's an exhibit.  That is Exhibit  Four, My Lord.  -- four at this  Yes, it is.  Yes, all right.  trial I think.  And I believe your evidence, Mrs. McKenzie, was that  you had never seen this totem pole itself?  There's  the picture right there.  A   Yes.  Q   You've just seen the photograph?  A   Yes.  Q   Have you ever been to the village of Kuldo?  A   No, but my husband has.  Q   And how do you know that Exhibit 4 is a photograph of  Gyolugyet's pole at Kuldo?  A   Because my husband told me there was a totem pole.  He  saw it in the 1930's because he took some trappers out  to the territory using horses to take out their winter  supplies and this is when my husband seen this totem  pole.  Q   And he told you there was a pole at Kuldo?  A   Yes.  Q   And what else did he tell you about it?  A  Well, he told me it had fallen and at that time he --  he didn't look at it or seen what -- what the crests  were carved on it, but not only him seen this totem  pole, other trappers that went through this area would  see it.  Q   Have you seen that picture in a book?  A   Yes.  Q   And is that how you know that that's Gyolugyet's pole  because of what you read in a book?  A   No.  It was told to me by my grandmother about this  totem pole, that we did have a totem pole, that at the  time that she saw it it was still up, but then she  explained to me that Gyolugyet did have a totem pole  on Kuldo.  Q   How do you know that this pole here in the photograph  is that pole that your grandmother told you about?  A  My husband seen it and he said it's -- it's the right 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  491  one.  But he didn't tell you about the crests on the pole  did he?  No.  Now, I believe that you testified that it was Gitksan  law that no totem poles could be taken out of one  village and erected in another.  Do you remember  telling us that?  Yes.  Telling the court that?  Yes.  And that's the reason why you and your wil'nat'ahl  decided not to move this totem pole down to 'Ksan?  Yes.  What exactly is the law that applies?  I mean how  would you give expression to that law that governed  this situation?  With the people that approach me wanting to take this  totem pole down to 'Ksan village, now as in the law of  Gitksan, no totem pole would be removed from one  village to another because the totem pole is the part  of the territory, so I -- I can't remove that totem  pole and it's on the territory of Gyolugyet.  And the law, the Gitksan law is that no totem pole can  be removed and taken to another village?  That's right.  Now, in fact some totem poles were moved to 'Ksan  weren't they?  A replica one.  Well, have you been to 'Ksan?  Yes.  And there's a Fireweed House there?  Yes.  And there are two poles there on either side of the  front of the house aren't there?  Yes.  And those are Jeffery Johnson's poles?  Yes.  And he was Hanamuxw?  Yes.  And he was a chief of a House?  Yes.  And Joan Ryan --  Yes.  -- has that name now doesn't she?  Yes.  And she's Fireweed? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  492  Yes.  And did Jeffery Johnson come from Gitwangak?  Kitsegukla.  Kitsegukla?  Yes.  Were those poles that are at the front of that house  in 'Ksan, were they moved from Kitsegukla to 'Ksan?  No.  Were they carved there at 'Ksan?  Yes.  The carvers did that.  Do you know when they were carved?  There were classes there for at the opening.  They  started putting the village together in 1969, and 1970  they began having classes for carving and so those  were their first poles that these carvers did, all  what was on 'Ksan grounds today, except for one that's  a replica there.  And what one is that?  That's the one that -- the pole next to Lax See'l's  House and it has a figure of a man with a fishing  pole.  And that's a replica of a pole that stood elsewhere?  Yes.  Whose pole is that?  The pole is from Kitwanger, the pole is, and they  wanted that particular pole from Kitwanger and so they  made a replica of it.  It's made of fibreglass, so  they had it erected at the 'Ksan village --  And -- sorry?  -- just to prove that there are stories behind these  totem poles and to get an old one and so they just  made a replica of --  And if I were to suggest to you that the poles that  Jeffery Johnson carved were dated 1960, would you  agree with me?  I'm talking about the two poles that  are in the Fireweed House at the front of the Fireweed  House --  Yes.  -- in 'Ksan, and I'm suggesting to you that they may  actually have been carved in 1960, not 1969?  To my knowledge it is, but the reason for that that's  why they're on Gitksan ground, Jeffery Johnson was one  chief that spoke to have this 'Ksan village started so  this was the reason to show in the adaawk that he was  involved in this building of the 'Ksan village.  And were those poles made in 'Ksan or were they made  elsewhere? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  493  They used only paints on those poles so I believe they  were done in Kitsegukla.  And were they Jeffery Johnson's poles?  Yes.  And so --  To my knowledge.  Yes.  And so when they were moved, was it a special  exception to the law?  At that time the village -- seven villages got  together before 'Ksan village was -- had started and  Jeffery Johnson was the one chief from Kitsegukla  decided that this was before we had carvers to carve  the totem poles and he wanted to show to the tourists  that we have totem poles.  So this is -- he gave -- he  gave permission to 'Ksan organization -- association  to bring these two short -- they're house posts.  Yes?  So just to show the tourists that the Gitksan people  have totem poles, and this is why he presented these  two poles to the 'Ksan village.  And he gave his permission?  Because he owns them himself.  And that's the permission -- that's the kind of  permission which you refuse to give for your pole?  Yes.  And you know where the pole of Gyetm galdoo is?  Yes.  In Hazelton?  That's in the village of Hazelton, isn't  it?  Yes.  It's outside the reserve?  Yes.  And it's been moved there hasn't it?  Yes.  And so it's no longer where it was?  No.  And do you know if Gyetm galdoo gave permission for  that to happen?  Yes, because they didn't want -- Gyetm galdoo's House  didn't want to lose that totem pole because the  earth -- the hill it was on, every flood time in the  springtime a lot of that ground would wash-out and  they were afraid they were going to lose that totem  pole that stayed there, so that's when the family got  together and had a meeting and they allowed it to be  erected close to the museum at that time.  And so they gave permission to move that pole? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  494  Yes.  And that's the same kind of permission that you did  not give?  No.  Also some of the poles from Kitwancool were moved  weren't they?  Yes.  They were moved down to Victoria?  Yes.  And the chiefs of Kitwancool gave permission for that  didn't they?  Yes.  So the law is that you can move a totem pole if the  chief gives permission?  Yes.  But in Gitksan law it's definitely most of the  chiefs would not give permission.  If they want the  strength of their territory they don't give  permissions to -- for totem poles to be removed.  You say that's in Gitksan law, but isn't it really a  decision that each chief makes?  The chief doesn't make the decision to send these  totem poles in the first place to Victoria.  The  Victoria people came and asked for permission and to  have the use of those totem poles in the museum.  And that permission was given?  And the permission was given.  It was given by the high chiefs of Kitwancool wasn't  it?  I imagine they did.  All right.  Did those high chiefs to your knowledge  lose their power because they gave the poles to the  museum in Victoria?  No.  What about Gyetm galdoo?  Did Gyetm galdoo lose his  power because he allowed his totem pole to be moved  down to the river front in Hazelton?  No.  If there were no permission given, then it would be  against Gitksan law to move the pole wouldn't it?  Yeah, it would be against the Gitksan -- rephrase that  again?  Sure.  If the chief didn't give permission, then it  would be against Gitksan law to move the pole wouldn't  it?  Yes.  What would be the punishment for breaking that law?  That chief would be degraded, lose his seat in the 1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  495  village where that pole was.  You see he lose the seat  because the seat goes with the totem pole in a  Feasting House.  It connects there from the territory.  The totem pole, the seat, all connected in a Feasting  House.  Has that ever happened during your lifetime of someone  losing their seat because the pole was moved?  To my knowledge there -- there isn't, and the way it  is it's on -- you see it's not a question thing to me  like because it depends on the family again of the  House.  See I can't say that this head chief can do it  when it's outside of my house.  What -- what happens  in my house is my responsibility, so if one chief  would give permission to hold -- to have a totem pole  removed from the village, then it's a disruption of  that house.  Well, are you telling me that it's a matter of Gitksan  law or is a matter of the law of each House?  It's a matter of each House.  And so are you telling me that it's really when you  talk about moving totem poles and you talk about the  pole at Kuldo and the fact that you didn't give  permission, what you're really telling me is that that  is a law of the house of Gyolugyet?  Yes, because I'm -- Gyolugyet is the head of the House  you see.  Now, my -- my feeling to my -- what I  have -- what is my property of the songs and things of  Gyolugyet's --  And the naxnoks?  Yes, whatever.  I'm responsible to that.  Yet another  chief of another House will agree, then this is when  the head chiefs come together and if they agree with  that chief, well it happens, but most of the time it's  not agreeable to the head chiefs.  Are you able to speak about what the laws are of the  other clans and Houses or is that a matter for them to  speak about?  It's a matter for each chief of the house to speak of  their own House and what property they have.  Like all  the songs and if there's a dispute in that, they have  to have the family settle it, unless they can't settle  it themselves.  This is when the other chiefs are  involved.  Now, what about the laws, though, are you able to  speak about the laws of other Houses and other clans?  No.  No, especially of another clan.  And so -- I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you. 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  496  If you had something else to say please go ahead?  No, just go on.  And so what you have told us about the Gitksan law in  your evidence, have you really just been telling us  about the law of the House of Gyolugyet?  Yes.  And you haven't been telling us about the law of the  Eagle clan or the Fireweed clan have you?  No.  Now, one of the laws that you did tell us about was  marriage and you talked about how it's against the law  for a person to marry another person from his or her  clan.  You remember telling us about that?  Yes.  And you said that that's not permitted, but it happens  sometimes?  Yes.  And as I recall your evidence, you said that one of  the things that you have to do as a chief is to tell  the young people about this part of the Gitksan law?  Yes.  That is what you do isn't it?  Yes.  You tell the young people about the Gitksan law?  Yes.  Well, actually what you really do is you tell the  young people about the law of the house of Gyolugyet;  isn't that so?  No.  That law is the Gitksan law.  It -- it's in the  law of all the Houses of the chiefs.  Sorry?  You see that law is made for the Gitksan people, not  for only one House.  It's every House that has that  law and we have to abide by it.  Are you permitted by Gitksan law to tell people what  the law is for the Fireweed clan about marriage?  No.  But -- so you're not really allowed to tell us about  that are you?  Unless it's a marriage in my House and at Lax Gibuu, I  can tell you about it.  And then let's keep talking about marriage because  you've told me that it still happens that there are --  when I say you told me, you told the court that there  are still occasions on which people marry into their  own clan and that's -- that was your evidence wasn't  it? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  497  Yes.  And you told us that one of the solutions for this was  adoption, that you could adopt one of the people out  of the clan into another clan?  Yes.  And by doing that that doesn't cause too much  disturbance in those two Houses and for the good of  the people, the young -- the people that are married  into each -- into their own clan.  I know when I was  small these people are always saying that, I use the  word disowned, because they can't go to a Feasting  because they're embarrassed of what their marriage is  is about.  Does that still happen?  Very rare today.  When I said does that still happen, I was referring to  the process of being disowned?  No, being disowned now we're getting more to look into  the matter and we see our young people are the -- are  the people that are doing it.  And you try to talk them out of it sometimes?  Sometimes, and sometimes we succeed.  And other times you don't?  Other times we don't.  And what happens when you don't succeed?  The couple themselves know that they -- when things  happen into the man and wife's house, especially in  the marriage of a daughter or a son and the death of a  son or a daughter of this couple, they can't call upon  the wilxsi bakxws to support they children.  Is that the consequence of this marriage, this kind of  marriage?  Yes.  Have you ever seen in your lifetime an example of  adoption to cure this kind of marriage?  Yes.  When did that occur?  I mentioned a few days ago of a incidence of Wii  elaast and his wife?  Yes, yes.  And has it occurred on any other occasions  in your life?  Well, I'll say that's the only one I can remember  right now.  Could you please turn to Tab number 4 in this book  which has the seating in some of the clans.  Here let  me help you.  I meant to say the seating at some of  the Feasts.  And the diagram at Tab 4 of Exhibit 2 is  called "Seating diagram for Funeral Feast hosted by 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  498  Lax Gibuu at Kispiox", but you've corrected that and  it's Gitanmaax?  Yes.  There's some names on this that I would like to ask  you about, and the first name is Bii nixs.  Do you see  Bii nixs' name there?  Yes.  And Bii nixs is Charlotte Sullivan?  Yes.  Yes.  Is she a chief?  Yes.  And is she the chief of a House?  She's a chief of Gyetm galdoo's House.  Does she have her own House?  Yes.  And is her House part of Gyetm galdoo's house?  The wing of Gyetm galdoo's House.  And does Bii nixs have her own territory?  Yes.  And do you know if someone is speaking for Bii nixs in  this case, in this court case?  No, they -- I don't know who's speaking for her  because it's a Lax See'l thing.  This is Lax See'l and  I'm Lax Gibuu, so they -- it's the family that has to  know who -- if she's one of the plaintiffs or the  witness.  It's up to the family to decide.  The family makes the decision?  Yes.  Uh-huh.  And do I understand you to say that it's not proper  for you to talk about that because it's a Lax See'l  matter?  Not when we talk about the House of a different chief.  So there are restrictions on the things that you can  say about the House of another chief?  Yes.  Can you tell me what those restrictions are?  Well, we're restricted not to make decisions of a  person in like Gyetm galdoo's House.  He's the chief  at the House of Lax See'l and Gitanmaax.  I can't make  no decisions for him or for his family because he's  got a House and he's the head chief of the village so  it's up to the family to make these decisions, and  it's against our law to make these decisions, unless  if there is a dispute in the family then the Gyetm  galdoo's family would perform a meeting of the chiefs.  That's the only time we're involved in anything.  In this case do you know what the decision was about 499  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  2 6 THE  COURT  2 7 MR.  PLANT  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  Bii nixs, who would speak for Bii nixs?  No, I don't.  There's another name I'd like you to look at and  that's Walter Harris who is Geel?  Yes.  He is the chief of a House?  Yes, at Kispiox.  At Kispiox?  Yes.  And he is a plaintiff in this case?  Yes.  What is his clan?  Giskaast, Fireweed.  Now, Walter Harris wasn't a plaintiff when this case  was commenced was he?  I'll say no to that because I -- I don't know.  Are you saying no because you don't know or because  it's not proper for you to talk about that?  It's -- there's -- the last question is that I'm not  supposed to make decisions for other Houses, and the  first question you asked was that I really didn't know  that he would be the -- one of the plaintiffs in this  case.  You know Thomas Wright?  Yes.  :  Rice?  Thomas Wright?  Yes.  And he has a chief's name doesn't he?  Yes.  That's Guuhadak?  Yes.  That's number 15.  I'm not taking advantage of the  benefits of my friends' list.  I'll try and do that.  Thomas Wright is a Lax Gibuu chief in Gitanmaax, isn't  he?  Yes.  And looking at this chart here his name's not on this  chart because when the Lax Gibuu clan host a Feast the  Lax Gibuu chiefs don't sit?  No.  They serve and they help?  Yeah, they're the host of the Feasting.  Well, then let's look at Tab 6 of Exhibit 2.  Tab 6 is  a seating diagram for a Feast hosted by the Lax See'l  at Gitanmaax.  Where would Thomas Wright sit at this 1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  500  Feast?  On top here is the -- it says "Lax Gibuu", and Spookw  is the head chief of the Lax Gibuu in Gitanmaax.  And does Thomas Wright sit beside him or at his table?  Yes.  There's the door here and on just Spookw's left  Guuhadak will sit.  Now, I understand that Thomas Wright was not a  plaintiff when this action was commenced.  Were you  aware of that?  No.  You don't know that?  No.  Let's go back to Tab 4, and on the right-hand side of  the diagram at Tab 4 of Exhibit 2 the second table  from the left at the bottom is a Giskaast table -- I'm  sorry, the second table from the right at the bottom?  Yes.  And Abel Brown's name is at the top?  Yes.  Okay.  And his chief's name is Anda'ap?  Yes.  And that appears here as "A-n-d-a-'-a-p"?  Now, is  Abel Brown the chief of a House?  Yes.  Is he the chief of his own House?  Yes.  Is there a head chief of that house?  Now, this is the Giskaast House again.  It's not Lax Gibuu?  It's not Lax Gibuu, so they -- especially this table  that you pointed out here is not fully in the last  Feasting that was set by the Giskaast at the Headstone  Feasting, and this table is not completed yet how the  seating of this table will be.  Now, they just informed us that the person that  held that Feasting was Alvin Weget and he took the  name of 'Niis Gimi Nuu and he pointed out at that  Feasting that the tables will be completed after in a  while because they had to get together, the ones that  sit on this table, and they have to agree how their  seating would be at this table.  So in the meantime he  told the Feasting at the -- all of the guests at the  Feasting, that he to take that place at the end of the  table.  That Alvin Weget would sit at the end of the table?  Yes, not right at the end, but --  Just over to one side? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21 MR.  PLA1  501  -- on the side.  One side, yes.  Is Alvin Weget the chief of a House then?  Yes.  And what is the name of the House that he is the chief  of?  'Niis Gimi Nuu.  Is he the head chief of that house?  Well, I'll -- I'll just say that I'm not sure on that  because it's up to them to say who they head chief is  of that House.  The last time that you went to a Feast that was hosted  by a clan other than the Giskaast, who sat as the  chief of the House of 'Niis Gimi Nuu?  That seat was open.  No one sat there?  No one sat there because the person that spoke -- that  would sit there is Guux Wo'otxw, but she lives in  Prince George today.  I don't have that -- the spelling of that name?  Guux Wo'otxw.  :  Could I get that Mr. Interpreter?  22 THE TRANSLATOR: G-u-w-o-'-o-t-x-w(sic).  2 3 MR. PLANT:  Who holds that name?  Charlotte Angus.  Oh, yes, I see.  And she lives in Prince George?  Yes, at the present time.  Perhaps I can ask you this.  We have three names now  Anda'ap, 'Niis Gimi Nuu and Guux Wo'otxw.  Are those  names all from one House?  Yes.  Would you say that they're all of one House or all of  the same wil'nat'ahl?  They all of the same House, but then there are wings  of the chief in that House.  And I understood your evidence a few minutes ago to be  that you don't want to say right now who's the head  chief of that House because it's not yet certain?  Yes, that's correct.  Do you know if that House has territory?  Well, being a house it's -- it has to have a  territory.  And have you heard people from that House at Feasts  tell the adaawk of that territory?  I'll say no to that because I haven't heard them  announcing it in the Feast because what I'm saying is  it's not settled yet.  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47 502  1 Q   Well, then let's try ten years ago.  Think back ten  2 years ago.  Who was the chief of that House then if  3 there was one?  4 A   James Woods.  5 Q   James Woods?  6 A   Yes.  Senior.  7 Q   And when did he die do you know?  8 A  About four or five years ago.  9 Q   And did you ever hear James Woods senior tell the  10 adaawk of his House's territory?  11 A  With him, yes, but then I can't recall the -- where  12 the territory is.  13 Q   You can't remember what he said?  14 A   No.  No, but I know that he -- he explained of their  15 fishing territory and where they do trapping and so  16 they have a territory, but I can't recall now where  17 their territory or the name of their territory.  18 Q   What was James Woods chief's name?  Do you remember  19 that?  20 A   It's 'Niis Gimi Nuu.  21 Q   Do you know who speaks for that territory in this  22 case?  23 A   No, I don't.  24 Q   Could you turn the page please to the next diagram  25 which is at Tab 5 and this is described as a seating  26 diagram for Funeral Feast hosted by Giskaast at  27 Kispiox.  Do you see that?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   And that's what this is?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   I'd like you to look at the Lax Gibuu table which has  32 Martha Brown at the head.  Do you see that?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And Martha Brown is Kliiyem lax haa?  35 A   Yes.  36 MR. PLANT:   And that's number 35 on this list.  There's a name  37 which I think is off to Martha's right as she's  38 sitting there of Hawaaw, H-a-w-a-a-w, do you see that?  39 THE COURT:  It's not on my copy.  Is it written in?  4 0 MR. PLANT:  41 Q   Well, I was looking at it from the vantage point of  42 Mrs. Brown sitting at the head of the table.  If you  43 hold the diagram -- hold the book up with the binding  44 at the top, the name is on the left-hand side of the  45 table and the English name is Irene Cournoyer?  46 A   Yes.  47 THE COURT:  Where?  Just a minute. 503  1  MR.  PLANT  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  PLANT  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  MR.  PLANT  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  PLANT  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  PLANT  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  19  20  MR.  PLANT  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  A  I'm at Tab 5, My Lord.  Yes.  Whereabouts?  Right here.  All right.  I'm sorry, I'm just -- did you jump from  the table down in the lower centre when you said look  at the Lax Gibuu table with Martha Danes?  I never started there.  Pardon?  I didn't actually take anyone here in a very clear  manner.  :  All right.  :  I haven't asked any questions about this document  other than relating to Kliiyem lax haa whose name  appears at the top if you hold the book with the  binding up.  :  Oh, I'm sorry.  I have Martha Brown -- no, I'm  sorry, I'm wrong again.  I have Martha Danes written  in there and -- I'm sorry, I'm looking at a different  table.  I know where you are now, I'm sorry, go ahead.  Martha Brown is a Lax Gibuu chief in Kispiox isn't  she?  Yes.  She's quite old?  Yes.  Does she have a designated successor?  In her family she has to do it herself.  Even though  she's a Lax Gibuu, I can't make decisions for her and  if she does it's within the family.  In the old days, of course, anyone who walked into the  Feast Hall could tell who the successor was?  Yes.  And now you can't?  No, you can't now.  So that's an important change in the way things are  done isn't it?  Yes.  Well, so you don't know who Martha Brown has chosen?  No, I don't.  Today I don't.  Let me ask you this.  Is that something that she would  discuss with you or would she have the discussions  just within her own family?  She'd have the first discussion with her own family,  then she'd call the other Lax Gibuus of different  tables like at the Gyolugyet table, Niist's table.  And she hasn't done that yet, has she?  No, she hasn't. 504  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15 MR.  16 THE  17 THE  18 MR.  19  20  21  22  2 3 MR.  24  25 THE  26  27  28  2 9 MR.  30  31  32 THE  33  34 MR.  35 THE  36  37 THE  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q   Not to you any way?  A   No, not to me.  Q   Can you tell me is that Irene Cournoyer that holds the  name Hawaaw?  A   No, that's a error there.  Q   It's Alice Wilson?  A   Yes, it's Alice Wilson.  She's supposed to be across  from there.  Q   On the other side of the table?  A   Yes, next to Art Wilson.  Q   So I should move this across to the other side and  change the name?  A  And the name Hawaaw you change, but Irene's name still  stands on that proper place there.  I see.  Irene stays on that side, Hawaaw moves across?  Yes, that's correct.  PLANT:  COURT:  WITNESS  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  PLANT  Does Irene have a chief's name?  Yes.  Do you know what that name is?  A'lax 'Nisxw.  I don't think that's on the list.  Perhaps this might  be a convenient moment to adjourn, My Lord.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  Then we'll have to adjourn then.  Is there any reason why I shouldn't caution the  witness in accordance with the usual practise of the  court?  GRANT:  I've already spoken with the witness concerning that  and I would be discussing it with other persons who  are present in the court, My Lord.  COURT:  I usually leave that with counsel, so I'll follow  that practise here unless counsel ask me otherwise.  GRANT:  Thank you.  COURT:  All right.  Then we'll adjourn until Monday at about  11:30 I suppose.  All right.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned to  Monday the 25th of May 1987, at 11:30.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO MAY 25, 1987, at 11:30)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings transcribed to the best  of my skill and ability. 505  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter

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