1 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant -- UPON COMMENCING AT 10.00 a.m. 19 February, 1986 -- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION NORMAN MOORE Gitksan Interpreter, Sworn. THOMAS WRIGHT, A Witness on behalf of the Plaintiffs duly sworn, testifies as follows: MR. GRANT: For the record, this is the commencement of the Commission Evidence of Thomas Wright and it is Wednesday, February 19th, 1986. Those who are present are Mr. Thomas Wright, the Witness; Mr. Norman Moore, the Interpreter; Ms. Veronica Harper, the Court Reporter; Mr. Neil Sterritt, who is here to assist with the writing or spelling of Gitksan words that will be given in evidence; myself, Peter Grant, as counsel for the plaintiffs; and Mr. Darrell 0'Byrne as Agent for counsel for the defendant. EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT: Q Can you tell us your Gitksan name? A Guuhadakw. Q Does that name mean stingy? A Yes, it means stingy, doesn't give anything to his fellow man. Q What is your date of birth? A 1900. Q Is it February 10th? A (In English) September. Q You are now 85 years of age? THE INTERPRETER: He will be 86 next September. BY MR. GRANT Q Where were you born? A Kisgegas. Q What was the name of your mother? A Sarah 'Wiiminoosikw. Q What was the name of your father? A Xsimxsan. Q Do you belong to a house of the Gitksan people? A From 'Wiik'aax's house. Q Was that the same house that your mother belonged to? A That is why I was going to get the name 'Wiik'aax, either 2 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant I or my mother will get it, 'Wiik'aax. But my father didn't want to give it to my mother because she was a woman. Q Which house did your father belong to? A 'Wiiminoosikx. Q What tribe to you belong to? Or clan? A Wolf Clan. Q What tribe did your father belong to? A Frog Tribe. Ganeda. It's the same as 'Wiiminoosikx. Q Who is the head chief of your house today? A Nobody took the name yet. There's a lot of children but they don't have any money, they drink too much. Q What is the head name for your house? A 'Wiik'aax. Q Is that name presently held by Neil Benjamin Sterritt? A Yes, he does hold it but he never got through yet He was on the White Clan. Q Do you remember how old you were when you took the name Guuhadakxw? THE INTERPRETER: He already had a lot of children by his wife. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was your wife still alive then when you took that name? A Yes, she was. Q Was it when a particular person had died that you took that name? A It was when, Beal took when Frank Clark died. THE INTERPRETER: And he took it when Beal died. BY MR. GRANT: Q Is that Beal you're referring to Beal Muldoe? A Yes, it is Beal Muldoe. He got it from Frank Clark. Q Do you know who held that name when you were a boy? A Edward Clark had that name. That heavy name, and then Frank Clark, and then Beal Muldoe. Q Do you know the name of the person who held it or, did the person who held it before Edward Clark have another name? Other than Guuhadakxw? A It was far back. It was too far back, I was born in 1900. THE INTERPRETER: He knows that name is from Kisgagas. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you know who were the former holders of the name 'Wiik'aax, the head chief of this house? A Johnny 'Wiik'aax had it. Johnny 'Wiik'aax. 3 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant THE INTERPRETER: He saw Thomas and then Danny 'Wiik'aax took it, his uncle. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was Danny 'Wiik'aax related to your mother? THE INTERPRETER: It was his -- they were brother and sister. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was Johnny 'Wiik'aax Danny 'Wiik'aaw's mother's brother? THE INTERPRETER: Danny 'Wiik'aax's what? MR. GRANT: Mother's brother. THE INTERPRETER: Mother's brother. Wait, Danny 'Wiik'aax? MR. GRANT: Was Johnny 'Wiik'aax Danny 'Wiik'aax's mother's brother? THE INTERPRETER: He said, no, they weren't brother and sister but they were related, they came from the same house. MR. GRANT: That is, Danny 'Wiik'aax's mother and Johnny 'Wiik'aax were not brother and sister? THE INTERPRETER: No. BY MR. GRANT: Q What does the name 'Wiik'aax mean? THE INTERPRETER: He said a big bird came from the sky. THE WITNESS: That's where our language came from today. That's my grandfather's legend. BY MR. GRANT: Q Does 'Wiik'aax refer to the wings of this big bird? THE INTERPRETER: He said it was from the bird's wings. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE INTERPRETER: He mentioned Hadakxwmxskiik. One guy from Kisgagas and one guy too. MR. GRANT: I'm sorry, is Hadakxwmxskiik related to 'Wiik'aax? Is that another chief name? THE INTERPRETER: It's his grandfather. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you grow up in Kisgagas? THE INTERPRETER: He was 14 when he left Kisgegas. He was going to be the helper for prospectors in their camp. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you return to Kisgagas after you were 14? THE INTERPRETER: He's always coming back to Kisgagas all the time. His father died in 1929 and he was there --he came 4 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant back to pay for his funeral expenses. His mother died in 1940 and he came back there too. Help out with the funeral. BY MR. GRANT: Q Does 'Wiik'aax's house have territories around Kisgagas? Or near Kisgagas? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he does have land out there at .... OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE INTERPRETER: He did --he does have land. 'Wiiminoosikx and Xsimxsan, they surveyed the area and they built a road to Kisgagas. BY MR. GRANT: Q Have you returned to 'Wiik'aax's territories since you were 14? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he finished them all off. He was on Xsimxsan's land and 'Wiik'aax's land and 'Wiimonoosikx's land. All his grandfathers. BY MR. GRANT: Q You said that you went to some -- you went to Kisgasgas when certain persons died, were there feasts held at Kisgagas that you attended? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he did. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE INTERPRETER: He did attend them. He was 14 years old when he left his parents. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did 'Wiikaax or does 'Wiik'aax have a seat in the feast hall of Kisgegas? A Yes, it's there but nobody sits on it to this day. Q Did you see Danny 'Wiik'aax or Johnny 'Wiik'aax sit in the seat of 'Wiik'aax when you were younger? A Yes. THE INTERPRETER: He did see them sit on them when he was small. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did they sit at the head of the table in the old feast hall? I should maybe ask, were there tables at the feast hall that you saw them sit at? A There were lot of tables and they all sat on them. 5 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant Q Did Danny 'Wiik'aax sit at the head of one of the tables? A Yes, he do. There were a lot of chiefs, 'Wiiminoosikx and Melulek. Q Did 'Wiiminoosikw and Melulek also sit at the head of tables? A Yes, they did sit at the head of the tables. THE INTERPRETER: And his dad sat -- 'Wiiminoosikx went to kispiox and his dad sat where 'Wiiminoosikx sat. MR. GRANT: I'm sorry, his dad sat where 'Wiiminoosikx sat? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. MR. GRANT: When 'Wiiminoosikx went to Kispiox? THE INTERPRETR: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was Melulek at the head of a table separate from 'Wiiminoosikx or 'Wiik'aax? A Yes, they sat at different tables. MR. GRANT: All three of them sat? THE INTERPRETER: All three of them sat at different tables. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you remember what chief sat beside 'Wiik'aax, on his left side and his right side? A David Green, his mother. Q Do you remember what her name was? A Woogalwil. Q What side of 'Wiik'aax did she sit on? A On the right side. Q Who sat on 'Wiik'aax's left side? A Nobody sat there. It was just recently that 'Niikyap sat there. He is from Gitangasx. He came from there. Q Did other chiefs sit beside David Green's mother? Who sat beside her? THE INTERPRETER: He said anybody could sit there. Whoever has a big name, they're the ones that would sit. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you remember who had a big name that did sit there or can you not recall? A There were a lot of people there. There are eleven houses there. There were a lot of halayt. THE INTERPRETER: That's another word you're going to use? THE WITNESS: All those houses were full in Kisgagas and I can't remember all the people. MR. GRANT: I'll come back to the houses or the wilp but before I do: Q Do you remember where the person who held Guuhadakxw's name sat at that time? 6 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE INTERPRETER: He was too small to remember that in Kisgegas. By the time he got the name it was already in Gitanmaax. That is when one of 'Wiik'aax's houses came here. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you remember when Guuhadakxw came to Gitanmaax from Kisgagas? THE INTEPRETER: No, he doesn't. His grandmother just told him he was Kisgagas. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did Guuhadakxw keep some of the crests of 'Wiik'aax when he moved Kisgagas? THE INTERPRETER: I forgot to mention, he also said: they took one of the crests from 'Wiik'aax's house. That's what he said. When his house came here. MR. GRANT: So he already answered that, he said he took a crest from 'Wiik'aax's house? That was his answer? MR. 0'BYRNE: Perhaps you should have the question put again so its clear. MR. GRANT: Yes. Maybe you can just ask him again. Q To clarify, Thomas, did Guuhadkxw bring a crest to Gitanmaax and, if so, what crest was it? MR. GRANT: You should put the question to him. Put the question to him. THE WITNESS: They use some crest. On the houses. THE INTERPRETER: He said Hazelton was.... MR. GRANT: He said which? THE INTERPRETER: Hazelton. MR. GRANT: Used some crest on the house and Hazelton is? THE INTERPRETER: Is Kisgagas. MR. GRANT: Is Kisgagas. THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT; Q What crests, what ayuks are used? A They use same crest, Gitanmaax and Kisgegas. Q What are those crests? A A bear and grizzly and big fish. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: And Wolf. THE INTERPRETER: I think he mean grizzly by the same as bear. 7 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant MR. GRANT: What's important is, if you are --if you have trouble understanding what he's saying, unless Mr. 0'Byrne takes exception, I think you can clarify what he is saying but try to get the words out and don't you make any suppositions about what he is saying. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: Yes, it is the same thing. THE INTERPRETER: He meant grizzly. MR. GRANT: It was grizzly? THE INTERPRETER: It was a grizzly. MR. GRANT: I see. THE INTERPRETER: But he said bear at first and grizzly. MR. GRANT: So the crest the answer is that the crest he is referring to is the crest of the grizzly bear? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was there a name for the House of 'Wiik'aax? A Tsimgaak. Q What does that name mean? A It was what grandfather saw coming from the sky, it was a big bird. THE INTERPRETER: Was the first one to have --he was the first one in Kisgagas and then 'Wiik'aax? MR. GRANT: Can you say that again? The first one, who was the first one? THE INTERPRETER: Ts'iiwa. MR. GRANT: Ts'iiwa. And then 'Wiik'aax? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you see 'Wiik'aax's house in Kisgagas when you were young? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he did see that house. It was starting to rot down but they still lived in there. BY MR. GRANT: Q Were there two houses attached together, one at the front and one at the back, in 'Wiik'aax's house? A The houses were very close together and the width of a man could only fit through the sides of the house, they were that close together. Q Was this particularly 'Wiik'aax's house or were all the houses that close together? 8 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE INTERPRETER: He said all the houses were like that. BY MR. GRANT: Q Does Guuhadakxw and 'Wiik'aax share the same territory? THE INTERPRETER: Guuhadakxw and who? MR. GRANT: 'Wiik'aax. THE WITNESS: No, they're not the same. There's a lot of land on this earth. It's like you guys, you guys have land in Hazelton and have land in Kisgagas. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you hold any other names before you received the name Guuhadakxw? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: Xsuwis. BY MR. GRANT: Q What does that name mean? A It is rain water. Q Did you give that name up when you received the name Guuhadakxw? THE INTERPRETER: No, he uses it. Still uses it. BY MR. GRANT: Q How old were you when you received the name? THE INTERPRETER: He was small. He was about ten years old when he got that name. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you have any other names? Were you given any other names? THE INTERPRETER: He had a name as a little boy, Amayee. It's from his -- it comes from his dad's side. His dad was a Frog. BY MR. GRANT: Q What does that name mean? A It's the way a frog walks, it walks slowly, as it walks, Amayee. Q Can you explain why your father's side gave you that name? THE INTERPRETER: His mother gave him that name but because his father was a Frog that's why they gave it to him. 9 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q Is part of the Gitksan tradition that your own house will give you a name that refers to your father's clan? A That is what all the Indians do. There are eleven houses in Kisgagas and they have the same law. Q Your mother's name was Haadit? A Yes, that's it. Q Did she hold other names that you know of? A Yes, she did but I forget them. A princess has a lot of names. MR. GRANT: Do you object to me leading on some of these? Just to ask him about a specific name. MR. 0'BYRNE: I don't object to a specific name, no. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you remember if she held the name Lugumgisianxws? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION THE WITNESS: It was David Green's grandmother that had that name. MR. GRANT: Under Gitksan tradition -- let me take that back. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did all your brothers and sisters belong to the House of 'Wiik'aax? A Yes, they all did. Q Are you related to 'Niikyap? A No. I'm not related to him. We are on the same tribe but they come from a different area, Gitangasx. Q Did 'niikyap move from Gitangasx and move to Kisgagas, in the olden days? A Yes, they did come from Gitangasx and move to Kisgagas. Q Do you know why they moved from Gitangasx to Kisgagas? A It's the way it is today. People scatter because it's, in those days Kisgagas was beautiful and people came from all areas. There are five villages in Kisgagas. Q I want to clarify this. Did five villages move to Kisgagas in the old days? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: They all moved together and that's why it was named Gitgaga'a. 10 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q When you say Gitgaga'a is that referring to what we now call Kisgagas? A Nass River people give that name to them, Gitgaga'a. Q To whom? THE INTERPRETER: To the Kisgagas people. MR. GRANT: I see. THE INTERPRETER: And you call Nass River people.... OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE INTERPRETER: And you call Nass River people Nisga' . I was trying to--I forgot what he said, that name. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did your grandfather or mother or father tell you the history of the people moving? Of 'Niikyap moving from Gitangasx to Kisgagas? THE INTERPRETER: What? BY MR. GRANT: Q Did your grandfather or parents tell you the history of the people moving from Gitangasx to Kisgagas? THE INTERPRETER: From Gitangasx to? MR. GRANT: Kisgagas. THE WITNESS: There's a lot of people here that come from Gitgangasx. A lot of them died off. Howard Wale is one of those people from Gitangasx. BY MR. GRANT: Q What is his Indian name? A I think it is Dee. Deelaxhat. Q Did the Gitangasx people fight with the Ts'ets'aut people? THE INTERPRETER: With the who? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION THE WITNESS: I think that's what happened. It was just told to me. They even reached Kisgagas at one time. MR. GRANT: Who, the Ts'ets'aut? THE INTERPRETER: The Ts'ets'aut. BY MR. GRANT: Q Can you tell us what you were told about the Gitangasx peoples disputes with the Ts'ets'aut? A It's because of the land. That's what the government is trying to hold back from. 11 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant THE INTERPRETER: You know, it sort of means stingy. BY MR. GRANT: Q In the old days when the Gitangasx and the Ts'ets'aut had disputes, was that over land as well? Just like today? A Yes, they were fighting about the land. They're doing practically every year. Q Did you know a person named Jimmy Williams and his wife? A No, I never seen them. Q Did you know or hear of a person named Charles Martin? A Yes. THE INTERPRETER: He did remember him. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was Charles Martin a person who lived at Kisgagas? A He's from Nisga' but he said he was from Kisgagas. Q Do you know if he had an Indian name and, if so, what it was? A Axgoodimgwela (?) . It could be in the Nisga language. They have a different language. Q Was there a chief at Kisgagas known as Sats'aan and was this the same person as your father? THE INTERPRETER: He didn't hear that. I don't know the pronunciation is right. MR. GRANT: Okay, I'll go back. Q You told us earlier your father's name, could you give us that name again? How you pronounced your father's name? A Xsimxsan. Q Did an earlier Xsimxan move from Gitangasx to Kisgagas as well? A No. No. He's not from Gitangasx. Q I would just like to return for a moment to the seating with 'Wiik'aax's table? A Yes, he did sit but it's when other people from a different area have a feast then Dogoges sits with 'Wiik'aax but not in Kisgagas. Q Where was Dogoges from? A From Kisgagas. Q When there are not people from other villages at the Kisgagas feast, did Dogoges sit at his or her own table? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: He sits -- Dogoges sits anywhere in Kisgagas as long as he remains a chief. 12 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q What clan is Dogoges from? A He is from our clan, 'Wiik'aax's house. Q You have already said that your mother's brother was Daniel 'Wiik'aax, did she have another brother named Tommy 'Wiiminoosikx? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE INTERPRETER: He said there's three of them that were brothers brothers and sisters, Tommy 'Wiiminoosikx and Danny and Sarah. MR. GRANT: Sarah, he's referring to his mother, is that right? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q What was your mother's mother's name? A Her name was Haadit and when she died his brother took the name Haadit. MR. GRANT: His mother took the name Haadit. THE INTERPRETER: His mother. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was your mother's father's name 'Wiiminoosikx? THE INTERPRETER: What did you say? MR. GRANT: Ask the Reporter to read it back if you want? THE INTERPRETER: What is that question? THE REPORTER: Question: "Was your mother's father's name 'Wiiminoosikx?" THE WITNESS: Yes, his name was 'Wiiminoosikx. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you go out on 'Wiik'aax's territory when you were young with Daniel 'Wiik'aax? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: Yes, we did go on his land. He is the one that looked after me. He got my clothes and he fed me. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did he teach you about 'Wiik'aax's territory? THE INTERPRETER: It was his father that showed him what to do on 'Wiik'aax's land. MR. GRANT: It was whose dad? THE INTERPRETER: Thomas' dad. He said "my dad". MR. 0'BYRNE: Perhaps we can clarify that for the record, Mr. Grant? 13 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant MR. GRANT: Okay. Q Thomas, your father your last answer was that your father taught you about 'Wiik'aax's territory? A Yes, he did. THE INTERPRETER: It was his father that taught him, because he married 'Wiik'aax's sister. THE WITNESS: I went on all my relatives' lands, 'Wiiminoosikx. BY MR. GRANT: Q So you went on 'Wiiminoosikx's territory and 'Wiik'aax's territory, is that correct? A Yes, went on all my grandfathers' lands. It was Danny that looked after me until I was capable of working then I went back to my father. Q How old were you when you went back to your father? A Then I was about 13 years old. MR. GRANT: Go off the record for a moment please. -- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION -- SHORT RECESS MR. GRANT: Go back on the record. Q Do you remember the feast that was held when Johnny 'Wiik'aax died? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he does remember. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was that in 1906? THE INTERPRETER: He didn't get the year down. It was after he had married, both still very young. MR. GRANT: It was after Thomas married? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Him and Helen. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was Johnny 'Wiik'aax very old when he died? A He was about middle aged. No, he wasn't. Q Have you known how the Gitksan would resolve a problem when the people there's a shortage of people in a house and it's like the house members are dying out? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: It's like you guys. You guys go all over the place and the house is empty. A lot of them go trapping. There's nobody there to look after it. Nobody there to guard it. 14 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q Did the people adopt members of other houses into their house to increase their membership? THE INTERPRETER: He said no. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you recall the history of a dispute or a killing involving a chief named Yagosip? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he remembers. It was in Kisgagas. It was a long time ago. MR. GRANT: Just for the record, two minor points. One is that the Interpreter has a book in front of him which is the Gitksan dictionary which all parties have agreed he can look at to assist himself when he has a problem with a word. The second is, Mr. Sterrit is helping to pronounce the names. If I'm pronouncing it and the Interpreter can't understand it, Mr. Sterritt is repeating that word, just to pronounce the name correctly. I take it there's no objection to that? MR. 0'BYRNE: There's no objection, for the record. BY MR. GRANT: Q Can you describe the history of Yagosip? This killing involving Yagosip? A He didn't mean to kill him. He took that knife like this and went back like that, and it must have been his own nephew and his nephew went and fell on it. On the knife. Q Was this at a feast? A No, it wasn't in a feast house. They were eating either dinner or supper. Q This was in the wilp of 'Wiik'aax? When I say the wilp, I'm referring to the house, the actual house of 'Wiik'aax at Kisgagas that this happened? A No. It wasn't in the house. It was -- they were just outside eating when it happened. Q What happened after this person died or was killed? A Nothing happened. It was resolved. There was peace. Nobody mentioned it. Q Was that peace resolved by the members of the House of 'Wiik'aax between themselves? THE INTERPRETER: He said nobody mentioned it. There was just peace after that. I said, I asked him if there was peace again and he said yes. I didn't mention 'Wiik'aax's house. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did the people who were there when it happened, did they resolve that it was an accident amongst themselves? That 15 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant there was no necessity for a feast? THE INTERPRETER: He said there's this peace amongst them. It was his own relative and there's going to be no Xsiisxw for the relative. BY MR. GRANT: Q If that had been between two different houses, in other words if the person who killed the other person was not a member of the same house and was not a relative, would there have to have been a Xsiisxw? A Yes, there will be Xsiisxw if that person was from a different house, there will be an exchange of blood. Q Has 'Wiik'aax always been the head chief of this house? The House of 'Wiik'aax? THE INTERPRETER: He said yes, that's where the big bird came and gave us our language. BY MR. GRANT: Q When you refer to the big bird are you referring to ada'ox or history of your house? A Yes, it is ada'ox. Q Okay. A But they don't always use that ada'ox, it's just in the house. Q Who taught you this ada'ox? A My grandfather taught it, grandmother. MR. GRANT: "My grandmother taught it"? THE INTERPRETER: Did I say grandfather? MR. GRANT: Then you corrected it? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did your grandfathers, Daniel 'Wiik'aax and Johnny 'Wiik'aax also teach you? A Yes, they did tell me and they don't tell when there's other people around. They tell just to their kids and it passes on generation to generation. Q Would this have been when you were at Kisgagas or would it have been when you were out on the territory? Or was it at both times you were taught these histories? A It was when I was at Kisgagas, that's when my grandmother told it to me. I wasn't with my grandmother on the trap lines. Q Did your grandmother repeat this history to you on many occasions so you would be sure to remember it? Or did she just tell it to you once or twice? A They only told it once. It is in the Indian people to 16 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant remember these things and the white people don't believe that. They don't use the paper to write down anything. They just use their heads. THE INTERPRETER: He mentioned Yagosip. MR. GRANT: What did he say about Yagosip? THE INTERPRETER: It was thousands of years ago -- can I ask about that, Yagosip? MR. GRANT: He just said -- what did he say? Yagosip was thousands of years ago? THE INTERPRETER: He mentioned him. BY MR. GRANT: Q You mentioned Yagosip, are you referring to the history of Yagosip that you told us about the killing? A It wasn't because of anything that they did. It was just, they were having dinner when it happened. Q Could you tell us today the history of how 'Wiik'aax got Kisgagas and this history of this -- I believe you said this big bird? A 'Wiik'aax came from Skeena City by, it's beside Prince Rupert, and then he travelled all the way up to the Yukon. Q Was Skeena City located near where Port Essington was? THE INTERPRETER: He said Skeena River -- Skeena City was on this side of Skeena River MR. GRANT: Okay. THE INTERPRETER: And Port Essington's on the left side, the other side. BY MR. GRANT: Q Would this be near to where Tyee is located now? A It's about ten miles from the Tyee Station and then it's Skeena City. Q Was that ten miles up river or down river? A Yes, it's ten miles down river. Q Was there an Indian name that you know of for this place you refer to as Skeena City? A Yes, it does have a name but my grandmother never told me. There's names all the way up the Skeena River. All these mountains have names and I know them all. Q Was this place known as Skeena City -- sorry -- were the people at Skeena City long before the first white man came to this country? -- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: Yes, it was long before the white man came to that city. 17 WRIGHT, J. In Chief Mr. Grant THE INTERPRETER: He said Ts'ooda, that bird sent Ts'ooda up the Skeena River. Ts'ooda, he was the first one. MR. GRANT: You asked him a question about Ts'ooda I think? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. MR. GRANT: What did you just ask him? To clarify that? THE INTERPRETER: I asked him not Ts'ooda, who is Ts'ooda? MR. GRANT: And what did he say to "Who is Ts'ooda"? THE INTERPRETER: The big bird send him up river. OFF THE RECORD BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you know why the people left Skeena City? A The big bird from the sky told them to come up the Skeena River and there will be seven houses and they will be called villages. My sister will come and tell you what to do. Q The big bird said my sister will come and tell you what to do? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q What was the name of that big bird? A It was gaak. Came from the heavens. Q You said earlier that that big bird took Ts'ooda up the river; is that name, Ts'ooda, still held by a Gitksan chief or a Gitksan person? A Nobody took that name yet. That name still in 'Wiik'aax's house. Q How did the people go up the river and where did they stop? THE INTERPRETER: He doesn't know. He thinks they must have just walked in the woods from Skeena City and then they reached the Yukon. MR. GRANT: Just go off the record for a moment to change the video tape. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. GRANT: Q You described that the bird told them that there would be seven villages or maybe it was seven houses, do you know where those villages were supposed to be or where they ended up being? A Some of those are from Nass River, Gitsalasxw, Gitsimgelwin, Terrace. Q Is it Gitsimgelwin? Do you want to ask him that? 18 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he thinks it is. He said he was -- I was up north here. MR. GRANT: So he referred to Gitsalasxw, Gitsimgelwin, and the Nass. Q Were there four other villages that were created from Skeena City? A Cedarvale. MR. GRANT: And he gave the name Miinskaniist for that? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. That is Cedarvale. Kitwanga. Kitsegukla. Gitsegyukla. Gitanmaax. Kispiox. And Glen Vowell was just formed recently. Kisgagas, and there was another one. THE WITNESS: Galdo'o. Kitwanga. There was 2 Kuldos, old and new. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was Kitwanga one of the villages? A That is what they call Kitwanga now. Q Was it one of these villages created from Skeena City? THE INTERPRETER: He said there is only one Indian and a woman came from the heavens and that's why there's lots of us. He said it's we're different from the white people. We have different language and it was Jesus Christ. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was the bird that came to take Ts'ooda, is that part of the spiritual beliefs or the spiritual history of the Gitksan people? A It's in Kisgagas, I never heard it here. Q The end of one of your answers was that it was Jesus Christ do you mean that this was to the Gitksan like Jesus was to the Christian missionaries? Talking about this history. A The white people have a different history and the Indians have a different history. Q You said that these people went all the way to the Yukon, did they turn and come back down towards Kisgagas? A Yes, they did come back and they're all over the Nass River now and Port Simpson. They're part of us. Q Is there anything else that you remember about the ada'ox of Ts'ooda and the bird that you can tell us now? THE INTERPRETER: He said the big bird came down and my father's sorry that you're alone on this world so I am going to send down somebody to strengthen your house, and there will be seven houses and they will be called villages. BY MR. GRANT: Q One of those villages was Kisgagas? 19 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant A There will be seven houses in the village and then it will be called a village. Q Now, could you tell us the names of the houses and the chiefs of those houses in the village of Kisgagas at the time you earliest can remember? That is, when you were a small boy? A There's too many of them and I can't just list them. I can remember them but I .... THE INTERPRETER: There's just too many of them, he said. He knows all Kisgagas. BY MR. GRANT: Q You have already just told us that 'Wiik'aax had a house there, is that right? A Yes, it's there, I seen it. Q And the name of that house was Tsimgaak? A Yes. Q Did 'niikyap have a house there? A Yes, he did have a house there. Just recently he came from Gitangasx. I seen his house and his totem pole. Q Was Gitangasx another village of the Gitksan people? A Yes, they come from Skeena City and they went to Gitangasx some of them. Q And 'Niikyap was one of the ones that went to Gitangasx from Skeena City? A It must be true, my grandfather -- my grandmother was the one that told me. I didn't feel it myself. Q Was Gitangasx a village that existed or where people lived long before you were born? A I didn't see Gitangasx but there are holes like this where there were houses, my father told. When my father told me, this is where the houses were at Gitangasx. Q Did your father show you the houses at Gitangasx? Show you, not the houses, but did you actually see these holes yourself when you were with your father? A Yes, I did see it. THE INTERPRETER: And he said this is Wilps Xkwooyemtxw, house. Howard Wale is from Gitangasx. BY MR. GRANT: Q Can you describe where these holes were? Where Gitangasx used to be in relation to Kisgagas? Was it, for example, near the Skeena River? Or where was it? A Yes. THE INTERPRETER: He does know where it is. 20 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q Can you describe it to us? A You can't see where it is now. There's nothing but trees there. Cottonwood trees. Q Was it in the territory of 'Wiik'aax? A No. His land is Xsu'wiiaks, Perry Lake. His land doesn't touch Gitangasx. Q Can you describe to us how you went to this place where Gitangasx was from Kisgagas? A They went on ice, the cie from here can reach Gitangasx. Q By that do you mean, if the river was frozen here and we travelled along the Skeena River that we would eventually reach Gitangasx and it was a place that was on the Skeena River? A Yes, it is. It is on the shore of the Skeena where Gitangasx is. Q If you were going up river -- would you have gone up river from Kisgagas or down river to get to Gitangasx? THE INTERPRETER: He said, yes, you go up river from Kisgagas. MR. GRANT: Okay. THE INTERPRETER: You go up river instead of not down. BY MR. GRANT: Q Would you go as far as Babine Lake? THE INTERPRETER: He said no, you wouldn't. Babine is one the east, on the right side. BY MR. GRANT: Q How many days would it have taken you to travel from Kisgagas to this place at Gitangasx? A It takes you longer to go on the ice but it takes one day to walk there. THE INTERPRETER: When he was young. To Gitangasx. He walks across the mountain. BY MR. GRANT: Q Would that have been how much it would have taken a normal person at that time or did you go there much faster than most people would have gone there? A No, I don't think anybody could walk as fast as I was when I was young. It takes me one day to get from Kisgagas to here. Q On foot? THE INTERPRETER: On Foot. BY MR. GRANT: Q So how long would it have taken somebody not as strong as 21 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant you or as healthy as you to get to Gitangasx? A Some of them will take longer, some of them will take the same time. Some people are stronger and some are weak. Q That's a good answer to a hard question, Thomas! Thomas, are you getting tired now or do you want us to ask you questions for a little bit longer today? THE INTERPRETER: He's not quite tired yet. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did 'Niikyap's house at Kisgagas have a name and, if so, do you know what that name was? A Tsimganootsenex is the name of that house. It was recently built, I see it. Q Does that name mean shadows? A Yes, it is. Q Did Woogalwil have a house at Kisgagas? A No, he didn't. He has got the same house as 'Wiik'aax. He tried to have a house but his house doesn't have a name. Q Did Woogalwil move out of 'Wiik'aax's house because 'Wiik'aax's house was too full? A Yes, he did move out. He died, he is no longer strong. Q Did this move from 'Wiik'aax's house happen before you were born or was this something that happened in your lifetime? A It was before I was born. Q Was it in your father's or your granfather's lifetime that this happened? A He was alive -- Danny 'Wiik'aax -- when he moved out. Danny 'Wiik'aax was alive. Q When Woogalwil moved out? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you remember seeing a house of Woogalwil at Kisgagas when you were a young boy? A No, I didn't see it. They're rotten. They're rotted down. Q Did 'Wiiminoosikx have his own house at Kisgagas? A Yes, he did have a house there. They're the ones that own Kisgagas, and 'Wiik'aax and Melulek. MR. GRANT: I'm sorry, would you say that answer again to me? THE INTERPRETER: 'Wiiminoosikx and 'Wiik'aax and Melulek, they own Kisgegas, he said. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did the House of 'Wiiminoosikx have a name? A Tsixsyaxyak. It is Luutgesxw crest. You guys are from Luutgesxw. It's you guys ada'ox. Q Can ;you tell us the name of 'Wiiminoosikx's house at 22 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant Kisgagas? Or is that not proper because you're not in that house? A No, I come from 'Wiik'aax's house. Q Are you feeling a bit tired now? Is it hard for you to remember because you have been going for a while? A No. Q When I asked you about 'Wiiminoosikx's house, you referred to the fact that 'Wiiminoosikx and Melulek -- did Melulek have a separate house from 'Wiiminoosikx in Kisgagas? Q 'Wiiminoosikx and Melulek are both Lax Seel, is that right? A They're from the same tribe, the Frog Tribe. Q Did Melulek's house have a name? A Tsim Moots'eks. It's small owl. MR. GRANT: Could you just say the name again for the record? THE INTERPRETER: Tsim Moots'eks. MR. GRANT: And he explained it meant as being a small owl? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you see Melulek's house when you were a small boy? That is, his house at Kisgagas? THE INTERPRETER: He was in that house. He walked around in it. BY MR. GRANT: Q Were people living there when you were growing up? A Yes, they were living in there. Q Did Melulek have one house or two houses when you were growing up? A No, he didn't. He had only one house. Q Was there a chief named Alaist at Kisgagas? A Yes, he did move out of Melulek's house, and his house was named Tsimyes. MR. GRANT: That is, Alaist's house was named Tsimyes? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q What does Tsimyes mean? A It means a fence. Q ALaist ws also a member of the Frog Clan? A Yes, he was a Frog. Q Was there a chief at Kisgagas named Haiwas? A Yes, there was a chief named Haiwas there. He came from Melulek's house but he didn't have a house. Melulek was the chief. 23 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant Q So this chief was in Melulek's house? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was there a chief at Kisgagas named 'Wiigyet? A No, he left and is still alive somewhere. Q Do you know if before 'Wiigyet left he had a house at Kisgagas? THE INTERPRETER: He said yes, he did have a house there and and people, two of them, they said nobody can take that house because it's a white person, they're white, somebody's white. BY MR. GRANT: Q When you say there's a white person, who are you referring to? A Pete Muldoe, they said he was a white, and he comes from Kisgagas, from 'Wiigyet's house. Q Did 'Wiigyet's house at Kisgagas have a name? A Daak'mhaast. Q What does that name mean? A It means in the leaves. THE INTERPRETER: He mentioned haast and I don't know what that means. MR. GRANT: What did he say? He mentioned haast as part of the name? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. MR. 0'BYRNE: Excuse me, I didn't get that word? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION THE INTERPRETER: Oh yes, it means Fireweed. MR. GRANT: Can you ask him to confirm that? You can ask him if he is referring to Fireweed? THE INTERPRETER: I don't know if this is allowed. MR. GRANT: I am asking you as the Interpreter to ask him if there is another word for Fireweed? That is, can you ask him if haast is Fireweed? Is it possible for you to do that or repeat that word? THE INTERPRETER: He said that it was --it bloomed after a while. MR. GRANT: What colour was it? THE INTERPRETER: Into a flower. MR. GRANT: What colour was it? THE INTERPRETER: They're different colours. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was 'Wiigyet's house there when you were a young boy? 24 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant That is, was it at Kisgagas? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he did see it, it was standing. BY MR. GRANT: Q Were people living in it? A Yes. There is one old lady living in there. 'Wiigyet died he went over in a boat up river. Q Did 'Wiigyet die -- was this in your lifetime that 'Wiigyet died? A He was --he used canoe and he saw the young people pull that canoe out of the river, so I must have been alive when he died. Q Was Baskyelaxha a chief at Kisgagas? A That was Peter 'Wiigyet's wife, Baskyelaxha. Q What clan was Baskyelaxha? A Lax Gibuu. Q Did Baskyelaxha have his own house or was in someone else's house? A Yes, he did have a house. THE INTERPRETER: Did I tell you earlier that he said Baskyelaxha was a woman? MR. GRANT: Yes, he said it was somebody's wife. I asked if Baskyelaxha had a house? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he does have a house. BY MR. GRANT: Q What was the name of Baskyelaxha's house? A Anskaskii. Q What does that name mean? A The houses were facing this way and it was facing this way instead and Anskaskii's doors were facing it. Q So Anskaskii was in front of the doors of the other houses? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. MR. GRANT: Is that correct? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was it close to the river at Kisgagas or farther? Or were the other houses between Anskaskii's house and the river? A They all face the river. They are all close to the river. Xsugwinlik'i'nsxw was the name of the river. Babine River. Q Why was the house of Baskyelaxha set at right angles to the houses? The other way? A They are in the same place, only it was this way. Q Was there a reason why it was facing a different way than the other houses? A No. 25 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant THE INTERPRETER: He doesn't know. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you remember any other houses at Kisgagas other than the ones we've been talking about up to now? A Yes, there's lots of other houses. One was Gwininitxw's house, and another one was the Moore house from Kitwanga. Q What was the second one? THE INTERPRETER: Moore. That is what our name is. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was there a name for Gwininitxw's house? A Sitaganaa (?) because the house was hanging. Just like this house is, it is up. MR. GRANT: Did he mean the house was elevated? THE WITNESS: Yes, it is because it is raised up. MR. GRANT: Just for the record, I asked you Gwinitxw's and I think when you said it you may have heard Gutgwinuxs. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION RECESSED FOR LUNCH A 12.50 p.m. UPON RESUMING AT 3.05 p.m. MR. GRANT: On the record. EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT (contd): Q This morning you were telling us about the history of Ts'ooda and the bird; was the bird that came to Skeena City, did that bird speak to the people there in a language? Did he talk to them? A He used our language, just the way I'm talking to you. That's the first time he heard the language and he understood it. Q Was that when your language was started? A Yes, that is when the Indian language was started. The whites don't use it. Q Was this language known as Sim'algyax? THE INTERPRETER: He thinks that's it. THE WITNESS: The whites have different languages and other people, other races have different languages. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did Ts'ooda or this bird build one of the first houses for the village? For one of these villages? 26 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant A It was Ts'ooda that built the first house. He didn't know the names of the posts but he built it anyway. The names of the posts he used. Q Did he learn the names of those posts as he was building it? A No, he didn't know. It just came from his hart. He remembered when he never had a house, when it was winter time. Q Was the first house that he built in the winter by digging a hole in the ground? A Yes, it was a bird that told him. He didn't build a hole, it was the bird that told him how to build a house. Q Was it this big bird? THE INTERPRETER: The big bird. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did the bird tell him the names of the posts on his house? A No, he didn't Q Did the bird help him to lift up these posts for the house posts? A Yes, the bird did help him and he just used one plank to lift up one of the those posts and they built the smoke house first. Q Now, earlier you said the bird told him that he was going to send down his sister, did a woman come to the people at this time? A Yes, it's true. Q Did she teach them how to prepare the fish, or dry the fish? A Ts'ooda was the one that made up the name for the smoke house and that lady that was sent down, she taught them how to dry the fish in there. Q Did this woman have a name? THE INTERPRETER: He said Ts' ooda' s name was Ts'iiwa. It means shining. That is what it really is, his name. And he didn't have a name for that lady. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was a child sent to the people as well to help them with drying the fish and the meat? Or was that Ts'ooda? A There was a child sent down. It was a girl. MR. GRANT: What else did he say? THE INTERPRETER: He said something about somebody got married but I couldn't quite get it, who married who. BY MR. GRANT Q Who got married? A He married that lady that came from the sky. 27 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant Q Ts'iiwa married the lady that came from the sky? A Yes. Q And they had the child? A It came from the sky, that child that came down. Q Did this happen before the people moved from Skeena City or after they had moved up the river? Or moved north? A That's where they came from and they travelled up the Skeena River. Q Did Ts'iiwa marry this woman after they had gone up the river or before they left Skeena City? A He did. It's possible. THE INTERPRETER: His grandmother never told him. BY MR. GRANT: Q Now, I understand that the people moved north as far as the Yukon; did they return from there to Kisgagas or to the Nass first? A After they come back from Yukon, they split up. A lot of people stayed at Kisgagas. A lot of people went to Kitwanga. A lot of people went to the Nass. A lot of people went to Tsimshian, and they just scattered all over the place. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. GRANT: Q Did Ts'iiwa have a brother? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE INTERPRETER: He said he was the only one that came. He came and he was the only one. He was a man. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did Ts'ooda come from a river? A particular place where there is a river and, if so, what's the name of that river? A He come from Skeena City. He woke up as a baby. It's just like when a bear hibernates, he woke up as a baby. THE INTERPRETER: He said he woke as a baby. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you know of a place, a river called Xsits'itamuutimax? A It's near Skeena City. Xsits'itamuutimax, it's Copper River. Q Now, is Copper River or Xsits'itamuutimax near where Ts'ooda came from? A He came from Skeena City. 28 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant Q When your grandfather told you about this, is this through the history that the Gitksan people believe? A Yes. THE INTERPRETER: He said there is one man that came from the sky and, I guess, after he taught them, he went back up to the sky. MR. GRANT: What did he say? BY MR. GRANT: Q Is the history of Tsi'ooda that you have described to us about Ts'ooda and the movement of the people from Skeena City, is that true? Did that really happen? A They did come from Skeena City, the people. The whites must have named it Skeena City. Q Was the first 'Wiik'aax named soon after they came to Kisgagas from Skeena City? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: No, he didn't have the name 'Wiik'aax at Kisgagas. After the people came back and they scattered all over the place, they went to Kisgagas and they used Ts'ooda. BY MR. GRANT: Q Were the people from the House of 'Wiik'aax living at Kisgagas long before the time of your grandfather? THE INTERPRETR: What? MR. GRANT: Repeat the question please? THE REPORTER: Question: "Were the people from the House of 'Wiik'aax living at Kisgagas long before the time of your grandfather?" THE WITNESS: Kisgagas was there for about, I don't know how many thousands years. It was just recently that the United States came and took it. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did I understand that Ts'ooda was the first chief at Kisgagas, is that right? A Yes, he is the chief of Kisgagas. Q Then was 'Wiik'aax one of the first chiefs after Ts'ooda at Kisgagas? A Then it's 'Wiik'aax. It is the bird that gave him the name. It's the birds wings. Q Was 'Wiigyet the chief that came after 'Wiik'aax? A It was just tecently after Kisgagas was ther that 'Wiigyet came. I saw 'Wiigyet's house, it was still there 29 WRIGHT,T., In Chief Mr. Grant when I was small. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. GRANT: Q Did your grandfather tell you where 'Wiigyet came from? A They found him on some leaves. He was a baby and the chief's daughter looked after it and brought him up. He was very wise and he helped to build up the Nass. Q Where did they find him? A They didn't tell the place. It was at the coast. Q Was 'Wiigyet found before you were born? A I was just born recently, in 1900, and the story was there already before I was born. Q Did this happen before your grandfather ws born? A It was just recently that 'Wiigyet was born but Ts'ooda was there before 'Wiigyet. THE INTERPRETER: He's the one at this village. Where his village originated in good spots. BY MR. GRANT: Q Thomas, it's hard for me and for us to understand what you mean by recent and that's why I'm trying to get some perspective. Do you know if 'Wiigyet had been brought up to Kisgagas before your grandfather, Johnny 'Wiik'aax, was born? THE INTERPRETER: He doesn't know. MR. GRANT: What was the answer? Describe what he said, if you can? THE INTERPRETER: I can't. It's really hard to translate. He said people made fun of 'Wiik'aax. Women made fun of 'Wiigyet. MR. GRANT: Yes? THE INTERPRETER: That the people moved up there -- that he moved up there because of that. They just looked after him from a baby. MR. 0'BYRNE: Just for the record, Mr. Grant. That's what he said, is it? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it seems like that. It was kind --he said -- maybe I should ask him over again? MR. GRANT: Just go off the record. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. GRANT: Go back on the record. Just for the record, I took a break to assist the Interpreter with some suggestions in terms of long answers 30 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant that may be given, Mr. Moore would like to hear the last question, so would you repeat it to him please? THE REPORTER: Question: "It is hard for me and for us to understand what you mean by recent and that's why I'm trying to get some perspective. Do you know if 'Wiigyet had been brought up to Kisgagas before your grandfather, Johnny 'Wiik'aax, was born?" THE INTERPRETER: He said 'Wiik'aax was the first one at Skeena City and then they brought up -- then 'Wiigyet came up and he built some fish traps up there. MR. GRANT: Is this at Kisgagas? THE INTERPRETER: At Kisgagas, this side of the river, where the bridge is. MR. GRANT: You said at Skeena City, did you mean at Kisgagas? THE INTERPRETER: He said Skeena City, that's why I said Skeena City. BY MR. GRANT: Q Now, did 'Wiigyet move out of Kisgagas much more recently? Such as, since you were born? THE INTERPRETER: He doesn't know. He wasn't born yet when 'Wiigyet left but he just seen the house there. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did someone take over 'Wiigyet position when he left Kisgagas? A Noxs Simaadasxw was her name. She had a child's name. It was ' Wiigyet' s sister. She was quite old. Q Again, was this woman there long before you were born or was this after you were born? A He died before I was born and it was that lady, his sister, that took the name. Q Did she die before you were born? THE INTERPRETER: He said she died just recently. THE WITNESS: And then they put people doing it, and they said it was a whit eperson, a Norwegian. BY MR. GRANT: Q When you described this morning a number of the houses and chiefs at Kisgagas, do you know which of these chiefs came to Kisgagas next after 'Wiik'aax and 'Wiigyet? THE INTERPRETER: He said there was a lot of houses there that were built. Eleven houses there. THE WITNESS: I'm too tired to mention them all. 31 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q You mentioned a lot of them this morning and I don't want to go over those. I just want to ask you about the House of -- I'll try this -- Ksemgitgiigyenix? Was there a House of Ksemgitgiigyenix? A That's the house his sister, Karen Moore, took. When her kids are old enough there'll take that house. Q What is the name of that house? A Tsimdaak. Q Is this the house you referred to this morning? You referred to a house that the Moores had, were you referring to Johnny Moore? A Yes, it is the house. It is the house. It's not Johnny Moore, he is not a chief. I have to go ... MR. GRANT: Go off the record for a moment. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. GRANT: Q This morning I asked you about the House of 'Wiiminoosikx, I'm not certain I asked you the name of that house but just to be sure can you give me the name of that house again? A Tsixsyaxyak. Q What does that name mean? A It was when Luutgesxw was killed by this woman in Tsimshian. THE INTERPRETER: Do you mind if I ask that lady's name? MR. GRANT: I'll ask it. Q What was the name of this lady that was killed? A It was Luutgesxw that killed her husband in Tsimshian. THE INTERPRETER: That's the story, you guys story, he said. BY MR. GRANT: Q You ay in Tsimshian do you mean in another place away from Kisgagas? A His dad came from 'Wiiminoosikx. THE INTERPRETER: And Welix is another name he mention. He said you guys are from 'Wiiminoosikx. MR. GRANT: What was that other name he mentioned? I didn't get it? THE INTERPRETER: Welix. BY MR. GRANT: Q You guessed my next question. Xsimxsan, your father, was in the House of 'Wiiminoosikx and shared the same house? A That's why my dad remained in that house. When 'Wiiminoosikx went to Kispiox he remained in the house. 32 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant Q Did your father remain in the house at Kisgagas? A It was in 'Wiigminoosikx's house at Kisgagas that he stayed. He took 'Wiiminoosikx's chair. Q Is Melulek and 'Wiiminoosikx the only two chiefs -- the only two Frog chiefs with their own house in Kisgagas? THE INTERPRETER: He said that there was lots of them in Kisgagas. He mentioned Hlengwax as one of them, George Moore, and he said he was from Kitwanga. BY MR. GRANT: Q Is Hlengwax a Frog chief? A Yes. He did -- he is a big chief. They called Charlie Moore in Kitwanga and he couldn't make it. Q Is he a Frog chief? A Yes, he is on the Frog Tribe. Q Did Hlengwax at one time have a house at Kisgagas? A They have the same house, him and Johnny Moore, Ksemgitgiigyenix. Q Just to be clear, Ksemgitgiigyenix house is Lax Seel or Frog House, is that right? A Yes, it is frog. Q Other than Melulek, 'Wiiminoosikx and Ksemgitgiigyenix -- other than those Frog houses, are there any other Lax Seel chiefs with their own house in Kisgagas? A Johnny Moore is head of the house. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: No, there isn't but Jimmy Johnson might have taken Melulek's house or he came from there. Tsimyes is the name of the house. MR. GRANT: Earlier as part of an answer -- I am just asking you, Norman --he said Johnny Moore was a head chief and you started to translate that, and then he continued but he was head chief of which of those three houses? THE INTERPRETER: It is the third one he mentioned. It's not Melulek, it's not 'Wiiminoosikx, but the third one. MR. GRANT: Ksemgitgiigyenix. Q Now, other than 'Wiik'aax's house and 'Niikyap's house, are there any other Lax Gibuu or Wolf Chiefs in Kisgagas with their own house? THE INTERPRETER: Wait. MR. GRANT: Go off the record. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION 33 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant MR. GRANT: On the record. THE WITNESS: Baskyelaxha, Tommy Jack and Jimmy Jack and Gwininitxw. BY MR. GRANT: Q Are there any other chiefs of the Wolf Tribe with their own house other than those four? A There was lots of them but they all rotted down. David Green had a house there. ANd abel Oakes. Abel Oakes died here. They all rotted down. Q What was David Green's name? A He didn't get a name, he is still a child. Q What about Abel Oakes, did he get a name? THE INTERPRETER: He said Howard Wale took ABel Oakes' name. It's Dee, it means heavens. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did Dee have his own house? A He did have a house but he didn't finish it. That is when the steam boat came up here and then he just left it. It was a long time. Q Was there a Lax Gibuu chief at Kisgagas whose name was Gwilaxhan a person in Gwininitxw's house? A They're the same. They have the same house. Q Are they the same person? THE INTERPRETER: He said they're the same. They have the same house. MR. GRANT: I want to be clear on this. Q Gwilaxhan is a person in Gwininitxw's house? A They come from the same house. They're not spread apart. Q What was the name of Baskyelaxha's house? A He came from the house of Tsimgaak and he never finished that house and he died. Q Do you know of a house where the name was Anskaskii? A A lot of them came from Tsimganootsenex. They came from that same house, Tsimgaak. Q Were there any Gitgaga'a or Fireweed chiefs at Kisgagas? A James, William Jackson and it is 'Wiigyet -- it's 'Wiigyet that are Q 'Wiigyet? THE INTERPRETER: 'Wiigyet, William Jackson and James Guuwo'otxw 34 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT Q Was William Jackson alive in your lifetime? A He died just recently. He died over here. Q Other than 'Wiigyet were there any other Gitgaga'a chiefs who had their own house at Kisgagas? A Just Pete Muldoe, they went to Galdo'o. I think. After 'Wiigyet left. Q Was there a chief named Waiget at Kisgagas? A No. He doesn't have a house and he doesn't have a name. Any fishing area or any land. Q Were there any chiefs of the Lax Xskiik people at Kisgagas? A That's George Moore, he died at Kitwanga. Q So is it correct that there no Lax Xskiik chiefs at Kisgagas? A It's Hlengwax and Ksemgitgiigyenix are there. Johnny Moore doesn't use Lax Xskiik, he uses Frog. MR. GRANT: I think we should adjourn. For the record, if you would just explain to Thomas, I understand that he hasn't said that he's tired but I don't want to tire him out because we would like to come back tomorrow. We'll adjourn and start tomorrow at the same time, and just go in the morning tomorrow. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4.15 p.m. TO BE RESUMED AT 10.00 a.m., 20 FEBRUARY, 1986. I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein, to the best of my skill and ability. Veronica Harper (Ms) Official Court Reporter B.C.S.R.A. #263 VH:22 Feb/86 35 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant UPON RESUMING AT 10.30 a.m. 20 February, 1986 NORMAN MOORE, Gitksan Interpreter, Previously Sworn. THOMAS WRIGHT, A Witness on behalf of the Plaintiffs, previously sworn, testifies as follows: MR. GRANT: This is a Continuation of the Commission Evidence that commenced yesterday. It's February 20th, 1986 and the same persons are present as were here yesterday. EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT (contd) Q Thomas, there was just one house I'm not certain I got the name of it yesterday and that was Gwininitxw; did that house at Kispiox have a name? A Sitaganaa(Z) THE INTERPRETER: He said it yesterday. MR. GRANT: Thank you. Q Did your grandfathers or your grandmother or your mother tell you about the laws of the Gitksan people? A They did tell. Q Did they describe to you the laws about the right to use certain territories? A They did. Q What territories were you entitled to go on for hunting, trapping or for other things? A 'Wiik'aax's, I was allowed to take some of it. Laats land. MR. GRANT: You're saying Laats as a name, aren't you? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was Laats territory part of 'Wiik'aax's territory or was it separate? A They're separate. Q Were you entitled to use 'Wiik'aax's territory because your mother and yourself were in 'Wiik'aax's house? A Laats and 'Wiik'aax had -- are in the same house and that's the same place where I and my mother come from. Q How old were you went you first went to 'Wiik'aax's territory? A I was quite small, I must have been about 12. Q Who did you got to that territory with? THE INTERPRETER: His dad. They have the same land. And his mother. 36 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant MR. GRANT: Did you go there THE INTERPRETER: I'm not done yet. MR. GRANT: I'm sorry. THE INTERPRETER: He went down there with his mother also. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you go there with Danny 'Wiik'aax? A Yes, I did. Q Can you tell us how far 'Wiik'aax's territory was from Kisgagas? Maybe you can describe it by saying how many days it would take you to get there by walking? THE INTERPRETER: There's too much noise, that's why I asked him again. He said one week, it would take about a week to get there. MR. GRANT: Okay. THE INTERPRETER: If you go by ice it will take longer. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you go there from Kisgagas when you went there? THE INTERPRETER: I asked him. THE WITNESS: Yes, we came from Kisgagas, there's a trail there. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did that trail go up behind Kisgagas in the direction where the graveyard is from the houses now? Is that they way you went? A Yes. They did go through the graveyard and sometimes they went around it. There's three trails and one went to Xsu'wiiaks. Q Was Xsu'wiiaks on 'Wiik'aax's tertitory? Was it quite far from the village? I'm sorry. Was it on 'Wiik'aax's territory? I'll ask one at a time? THE INTERPRETER: 'Wiik'aax? MR. GRANT: 'Wiik'aax. THE WITNESS: It's the same. BY MR. GRANT: Q Is Xsu'wiiaks at the Sustut River? A It's the same. 'Wiik'aax and Laats, they sort of all own the same, there's a whole bunch of them. It's the same road, the same trail. Q I want to be clear, do you know is Xsu'wiiaks a river and do you know what the white people call it? THE INTERPRETER: He said Xsu'wiiaks is Skeena. MR. GRANT: Is the Skeena? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Sustut. 37 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant MR. GRANT: What did he say about Sustut? THE INTERPRETER: It's off the Skeena, I think. BY MR. GRANT: Q On your way up to 'Wiik'aax's territory did you go through a place called Xsa angasx? A Yes, we did go on there on the ice, Skeena. MR. GRANT: I'm not sure he understood the question. A Did you go through a place called Xsa anlaahl? A Yes, we did go through, that was our trail, 'Wiik'aax's and Laats. And Angilgala'nasxw, that's what they went through too. It's not that far. Q What was that second name? THE INTERPRETER: Angilagala'nasxw. BY MR. GRANT: Q Before you got to Angilgal'nasxw, did you go through a a place called Xsuwiltalgats? A Yes. There is two Xsuwiltalgats, two little waters named that. That's part of the trail after you come from Kisgagas Q Did you also go by a place called Xsa angokhl? A Yes, that's where the trail goes. It goes all the way to Bear Lake and there are a lot of branches off this main trail. Q Can you tell us what Xsa angokhl is? A It's a place where you snare mountain goats. They used branches of the trees and they twisted them around to make rope, and that's what they call gokhl, where they trap -- THE INTERPRETER: I mean -- snare those goats. BY MR. GRANT: Q Is Xsa angokhl the place where they get the branches, or is it a place where they snare the goats, or is it a place they're naming because it reminds them of that? A It's water. Q Going along the trail to 'Wiik'aax's territory, do you also go through a place called Xsi andapmatx? THE INTERPRETER: He said, it's near the Babine River. It's, yes, it's near Kisgagas. BY MR. GRANT: Q You told us there were two or three trails to 'Wiik'aax's territory, did one of those trails go by Xsa andapmatx? A Xsa andapmatx, you can see it when you're at Kisgagas. There's no trail leading there but there's a lot of trails that could get there. Q Is that a mountain or a place near a mountain/ 38 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant A It's water. Q Did people snare goats or other game at Xsa andapmatx? A Yes. When you go there you could see the goats there. A thousand at a time. Q What does Xsa andapmatx mean? A It means at water. Q Going back to the route to 'Wiik'aax's territory, did you go through a place or by a place called Anha'mook? A Yes, that's where the trail is. You go over it and then you get to Xsigwingyilaa. Q What is Anha'mook? What do the words mean and what kind of a place is it? A The Indians call it ha'mook but the white people call it rhubarb. That's what Anha'mook means. Q What is Anha'mook? Is it a river, mountain or A It is a mountain. Q Do you know if the white people have a name for this mountain? A The white people never did reach that, just only Indians. Q Is the place after Anha'mook that you go to if you are on this trail Angilgala'nasxw? A After you get past Anha'mook you get to Xsa angasx and Xsa anlaahl. Stewart River. Angilgala'nasxw is road, is trail. Q Who owns the territory at Xsa angokhl? A That is part of Laats. Q Who owns territory at Xsa anlaahal? A It's nobody's land. David Green usually get goats there. Q After you go through Xsa angokhl do you reach Sicintine Lake? A Yes. It's about after you past Xsa angokhl then it's about three miles to that lake, Sicintine. Q Whose territory is Sicintine in? A Laats. Q Is Sicintine a Sekani word? And do you know what it means? THE INTERPRETER: A what word? MR. GRANT: A Sekani word. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION THE WITNESS: It's Ts'ets'aut word. That's their language and it means big hunting ground. 'wiit'isimanguhlyee, that's what translated into our words. BY MR. GRANT: Q Now, after you pass Sicintine Lake on the way to 'Wiik'aax's territory, do you go to another river? And what is the 39 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant name of that river? Well, do you go to another river? A You get to Xsigwingyilaa. THE INTERPRETER: He said there was two xsigwingyilaa, one was small and one was big, Xsigwingyilla. BY MR. GRANT: Q Which one do you get to, the small one or the big one? THE INTERPRETER: I forgot to mention, he said it ran into the Skeena. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: The small one. BY MR. GRANT: Q How many miles along that river do you travel? THE INTERPRETER: He walks two days before he gets to -- he didn't quite hear me, I don't think. MR. GRANT: Okay. Q When you reach a place called Xsigwingyilaa, which you referred to, how long does it take you to travel along that river before you leave that river? THE INTERPRETER: He said not very long. They only take about one day and you reach Xsu'wiiaks. BY MR. GRANT: Q When you reach Xsu'wiiaks do you cross the river before you get to 'Wiik'aax's territory? A Yes, you go across it. Q How did you go across that when you were a young boy? A All the Natives know where the trail goes and they make a bridge over it by putting logs over it. Q Now, after you cross Xsu'wiiaks were you in 'Wiik'aax's territory? A After they go over Xsigwingyilaa then they use a boat and then they get to 'Wiik'aax's house. Q Just to be clear, Xsu'wiiaks is a river, I believe you have already said, is that right? A It's as big as Skeena River. MR. GRANT: Do you need a word? THE INTERPRETER: No, I was just waiting for you. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you cross Xsu'wiiaks by a bridge or by a boat? When you were a young boy? 40 WRIGHT, T., In Chief MR. Grant A Boat. Q After you crossed Gwiisxsigwingyilaa were you in 'Wiik'aax's territory? A Yes, that's where we were going, that's why we crossed that river. Q You may have misunderstood me. I understand that you crossed two rivers, Xsu'wiiaks and Gwiisxsigwingyilaa; before you crossed Xsu'wiiaks and after you crossed Gwiisxsigwingyilaa, that is between those two rivers or waters, were you in 'Wiik'aax's territory? A It's on the left side Xsu'wiiaks, his land. Q His land is on the left side of Xsu'wiiaks? THE INTERPRETER: On the north side. MR. GRANT: Okay. THE INTERPRETER: Of Xsu'wiiaks. MR. GRANT: Just take your time in understanding the question, if you have a problem. Q Just to be clear, in order to get to 'Wiik'aax's territory you had to cross both Gwiisxsigwingyilaa and Xsu'wiiaks, is that correct? A After you cross Xsu'wiiaks that is where his land starts. Q Was there a cabin or a place to stay there while you were out on that land? A There was a lot of little houses there, all over the land. I think they're rotted down already. Q Were those little houses built by your grandfathers and persons in 'Wiik'aax's house? THE INTERPRETER: It was his grandfather's forefathers that did it. BY MR. GRANT: Q How far was 'Wiik'aax's territory from Bear Lake? A Not that far. THE INTERPRETER: He said the first Bear Lake is 'Wiik'aax's territory too. BY MR. GRANT: Q Now, you said 'Wiik'aax's territory starts on the far side of Xsu'wiiaks, whose territory is it on this side or the near side of Xsu'wiiaks? A Samuel Brown. Q Is Samuel Brown's territory between Xsu'wiiaks and Xsigwingyilaa? A Yes, Samuel Brown owns that land between Gwiisxsigwingyilaa and Xsu'wiiaks. Q Does Samuel Brown's territory go all the way to Bear Lake between those two rivers? 41 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant A It could possibly reach all the way over there. But it does go down to the Skeena, between those rivers. Q I just would like to be clear about these rivers. Does the Xsu'wiiaks, is that a river that flows into the 'Ksan or Skeena River? A Yes, it does go into the Skeena, they're both the same size. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. GRANT Q Does Xsigwingyilaa also flow into the Skeena? A Yes, they both flow in there, the Xsigwingyilaa and Gwi i sxs i gwingy i 1 aa. Q Do you know if the white people had a name for 'Wiixsiwingyilaa? A Now, they didn't. Just Indian names. Q Was there a large mountain in Sam Brown's territory that you would go near as you were going to 'Wiik'aax's? A 'Wiiyoo. Q Was that the name of the moutain? THE INTERPRETER: That's the name of the mountain. BY MR. GRANT: Q Now, do you know who owned the territory between -- you said there were two rivers, one was Gwiisxsigwingyilaa and the other was 'Wiixsigwingyilaa, do you know who owned the territory between those two rivers? THE INTERPRETER: He said nobody owns it. It's just trail because it's too small. BY MR. GRANT: Q Is there a big mountain between those rivers and did the Indian people have a name for it, if there was one? A No, there was no mountain there. It was too small an area. Q Do you know a place named Saigyoowilpxan? THE INTERPRETER: Are you sure that's the name, Saigyoowilpxan? MR. GRANT: No. THE INTERPRETER: He doesn't know, he said. MR. GRANT: That's fine. Q Do you know the name of a place called Tsimwilp? THE INTERPRETER: He said Tsimgaak owns that. Owns that land. MR. GRANT: Tsimgaak does? THE INTERPRETER: That is the name of the house. MR. GRANT: Yes. Okay. 42 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant THE INTERPRETER: There Laats and 'Wiik'aax. MR. GRANT: Just to be clear, the place ailed Tsimwilp is owned by 'Wiik'aax? THE INTERPRETER: He didn't give an answer to that question. He just.... MR. GRANT: Just translate my question to him, Norman. Q Is the place called Tsimwilp owned by 'Wiik'aax? THE INTERPRETER: He may have been going back to that house that owns that land. He probably MR. GRANT: I don' t want you to THE INTERPRETER: Okay. Well, I'll tell you what he aid. MR. GRANT: Just tell me what he said. THE INTERPRETER: He said Laats and 'Wiik'aax own that land. Tsimgaak is where the house they come from and they own that land. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you know of a lake call T'amxsi'mootiksxwt? A Yes. THE INTERPRETER: He said it's between Gwiisxsigwingyilaa and 'Wiixsigwingyilaa. It's on that land between those two T ' rivers, two waters. Xsimxsan is the one that owns that land. T'amxsi'mootiksxwt is between those two rivers. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you know a place called Ukskiit? A It's right near Kisgegas, where that land is, Ukskiit. Q Is this a mountain? A Xsimxsan owns that land. Ukskiit is a mountain. Q When you refer to Xsimxsan owning that land, is this your father? Is this the same perosn as the name your father held? A Yes, that's the one. Q How long did it usually take for you to go from Kisgagas to Xsu'wiiaks? THE INTERPRETER: When he walks it takes him two days. He doesn't have very much to pack. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you once go there in one day when you were a young man? A Yes. THE INTERPRETER: He didn't try to go there in one day. He takes it easy and gets there in two days. MR. GRANT: Did you ever travel -- just a moment. Q Did you ever travel past T'amxsi'mootiksxwt on your way to Xsu'wiiaks territory? THE INTERPRETER: He goes to Gwiisxsigwingyilaa, and 43 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant Gwiisxsigwingyilaa drains in 'Wiixigwingyilaa, and that is where the trail is, the bridge is across where they meet. MR. GRANT: Could you just give me those two names again? THE INTERPRETER: He gets to Gwiisxsigwingyilaa and 'Wiixigwingyilaa, and he goes down that river, he follows that river and gets to where Gwiisxsigwingyilaa and 'Wiixigwingyilaa meet and that's where the bridge is across there and then he continues on. BY MR. GRANT: Q When you got to 'Wiik'aax's territory with your father and Danny 'Wiik'aax, what did you do there? I'm referring to when you wre twelve? A It was 'Wiik'aax's land. Xsimxsan's land is right near there too. Q Did you and or your grandfather trap and hunt on 'Wiik'aax's land? A Yes, always go there, and they do trap on there but at that time they were checking it out in case white people came and tried to rake it away. Q How long did you stay there, that time when you were 12 years old? A Not too long. THE INTERPRETER: They walked around there, and they were hunting beavers and all that because it was their land. His father's -- I mean 'Wiik'aax's land reaches the Skeena and Xsu'wiiaks, yes. Well, the Skeena anyways and his father's land is right there, with 'Wiik'aax's. MR. GRANT: When you say his father's, Thomas is saying "my father's"? THE INTERPRETER: Xsimxsan. Yes. MR. GRANT: Try to remember that. It's important when it's read. THE INTERPRETER: He said his father. MR. GRANT: Would you say "my father" for the record? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q What time of the year was it when you were there when you were a young boy? A After all the leaves are gone then they go, before the snow falls they would come back. Q Did you see any white people at 'Wiik'aax's territory when you went there? Q Did you see any sign that white people or people who 'Wiik'aax didn't know were on that territory? Or had been 44 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant on that territory? A Nobody. Nobody wa on there. Q Had white people been to Kisgegas before this trip you're talking about when you were 12? A No, nobody was there. There were no whites, just Kisgagas people. Q Now, I would just like to be clear who all went with you on that trip. You described that you went, could you tell us who else went with you up to 'Wiik'aax's territory on that trip? A There's just three of us. My dad and Danny 'Wiik'aax. I was small, I was just helping them. Q Do you remember who held the name Laats at that time? A At that time they all died off and nobody had it so we were responsible for it. MR. GRANT: Go off the record for a moment. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION SHORT RECESS OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. GRANT: Q Thomas, there was some mix-up over one of your answers and we would just like to clear it up. You described that you left Xsigwingyilaa and went to another place; can you describe the name of the next river you come to on the way to 'Wiik'aax's territory after leaving Xsigwingyilaa? A Xsu'wiiaks. There's only water ther, you get to it. Q That took you about a day to get from the beginning of Xsigwingyilaa to Xsu'wiiaks? A It's not half a mile between those waters. MR. GRANT: Just for the record, it was raised that one of the words may hav been mixed up in an earlier question and I am going to ask the person who is recording the words as to what that word was? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. GRANT: Q When you left with your father and DAnny 'Wiik'aax on this trip, when you let 'Wiik'aax's territory, did you return the same way as you had gone? THE INTERPRETER: They come back the same way and then they came to Kisgagas. 45 WRIGHT., T. In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q You referred to one territory between Xsigwingyilaa and Xsu'wiiaks as belonging to Samuel Brown; did Samuel Brown have an Indian name? A Haadixs laxnox, that is name of Samuel Brown. They said Oyee but it's Nass River people that have that name, it's not Samuel Brown. Q Just to be clear, the Nass River people have the name Oyee? A Yes, that name comes from Nisga'. THE INTERPRETER: BY MR. GRANT: Q Is Haadixs laxnox Kate Jackson's grandfather? A Yes, that is her grandfather. And it's Kate Jackson that's going to get that name, she's the only one that's left, her and Freddy Jackson. Q Is Haadixs laxnoxa Lax Gibuu or Wolf name? A Lax Gibuu. Q What house does that name come from? A They don't have a house. It was just recently tht 'Niikyap had a house and that's .... MR. GRANT: I didn't hear the last of your answer? And that's? THE INTERPRETER: That's where its from. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did Haadixs laxnox own the territory all the way to Bear Lake? A No. THE WITNESS: I only know Xsu'wiiaks, on the other side of Xsu'wiiaks. On the left side going to Bear Lake. BY MR. GRANT: Q That is, the other side of Xsu'wiiaks you're referring to 'Wiik'aax's territory? A Yes, on the other side. Q Were there blueberries or berries at Angilgala'nasxw? A Yes, there were berries there a long time ago but all the bushes are gone and there's none there now. Q Did you see berries in that area? Did you see berries in that area when you went up there? A Yes, in 1914 that is when we were there. There were a lot of blueberries but now there's, all the bushes just grow out and there's nothing there now. Q Did you or other people from Kisgegas pick those berries and use them? A No, they didn't. They just walked by it and ate some 46 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant and they didn't save any of the berries at that time. Q Do you know a mountain known as Sagants'ihl? A Yes. it is a mountain. A It's on 'Wiik'aax's territory. Q Did your grandfather or yourself used to fish in Xsu'wiiaks? Not just on this one trip but any time? THE INTERPRETER: Where at? MR. GRANT: At Xsu'wiiaks. THE WITNESS: There's fish all the way up the Skeena and all those waters up there, including Bear Lake. I got fish from up there. THE INTERPRETER: I asked him if he got it just from Xsu'wiiaks. That's what I asked him. MR. GRANT: What did he say then? THE INTERPRETER: He explained there was fish from the coast all over. BY MR. GRANT: Q I understand you fished in many places, was one of the places you fished in the Xsu'wiiaks? A At that time we were just there to check the territory. We didn't --we weren't there very long. Q All the area of these waters, they have fish in them. It comes from up here and goes all the way up there. Q Was Samuel Brown alive when you were a young man? A Yes, I did see him. He had a store in Kisgagas. Q Who was he married to? A Woosim mediik is her name. It's the sister of Solomon Diek. She's from Melulek's house. They're both from Kisgagas. Q I believe you answered earlier he went on somebody's territory, did Samuel Brown go on someone else's territory to hunt or trap? A He got killed in Bear Lake. He died in Bear Lake. Q Did he die of an illness or did somebody kill him? A Charles Crosby's the one that killed him. That's Madeline Brown's brother. It's because he killed Madeline Brown. Q Was Madeline Brown Samuel's wife? A Yes. Q Do you know why Samuel Brown killed his wife? A 1918 is when it happened. I wasn't there at the time, I 47 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant was here so I don't know what happened. Q Was there a funeral or a feast for Madeline Brown at Kisgegas? A No. Q Was there a settlement feast or Xsiisxw when Crosby killed Samuel Brown? A No, there wasn't any settlement feast. Q Under Gitksan law did the chiefs recognise that Mr. Crosby has a right to kill Samuel Brown for killing his sister? A The people agreed with Charles Crosby and there was peace amongst them. He never got picked up or anything. Q So there was no dispute afterwards between Samuel Brown's house and Madeline Brown or Charles Crosby's house? A No. Thre was peace amongst them. I was always thre so there was no trouble amongst the houses. Q These two houses would be th eHouse of Melulek where Madeline and Charles Crosby came from? A They're both from Melulek's house. Q And the House of 'Niikyap where Samuel Brown came from? A Yes. It was just recently that 'Niikyap had a house. He is from Gitangasx. Q Did the police come to Kisgegas to investigate the killing of Samuel Brown or Madeline Brown? A Yes, two police officers came and they dug Samuel Brown's grave and looked at the body. They didn't know whether he killed himself or not so they didn't arrest anybody and there was peace. Q Earlier I believe you said that Xsimxsan owned the territory at Gwiisxsigwingyilaa, is that right? A Yes, that's at that Gwiisxsigwingyilaa. THE INTERPRETER: He mentioned a mountain, Xsimxsan owns that whole mountain. I've forgotten the name of it. MR. GRANT: Just ask him -- could you clarify that name so you can give it to us? BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you have rights to hunt or use your father Xsimxsan's territory? Under Gitksan tradition? A Yes, I could. I'm old age now and I'm retired. My grandchildren could walk on there. Q Is thatz the same with all the Gitksan, that they have rights to use their father's territory? A Yes, it's the law and when he dies it goes back to the original tribe where it comes from. They can't walk on it anymore. 48 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant Q I would like to clarify that. Is it when you die or is it when your father dies that you lose the rights to the territory? Or can you and your children use that territory until you die? THE INTERPRETER: He said his father's name was 'Niist. They could walk on the hand of the ghost sticking outside the grave, they could feed on that land. I sometime forget that camera's there. MR. GRANT: Don't worry about that. Is that the entire answer? THE INTERPRETER: They could feed on that land, his children. BY MR. GRANT: Q Can you still use your father's territory today, if you were healthy enough to go out there? A Yes, I could when I was stronger but right now I'm near death, I'm at the graveyard but my grandchildren could use it. I also have traplines. PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12.05 p.m. TO BE RESUMED AT 10.00 a.m. 21 February, 1986. I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein, to the best of my skill and ability. Veronia Harper (Ms) Official Court Reporter B.C.S.R.A. #263 VH:23 Feb/86 49 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant UPON RESUMING AT 10.20 A.M. 21 February , 1986 NORMAN MOORE, Gitksan Interpreter, Previously Sworn. THOMAS WRIGHT, A witness on behalf of the Plaintiffs, previously sworn, testifies as follows: MR. GRANT: This is the Continuation of the Commission Evidence of Thomas Wright, which was adjourned yesterday. It is now February 21. The same persons are here as were yesterday exercising the same function. EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT (contd) Q Thomas, the other day I asked you a question referring to the name Haadit and I just want to clarify the answer because the record isn't quite clear. You aid that your mother's mother had the name Haadit; when she died, did your mother take that name? THE INTERPRETER: He said it is true, the way it is. BY MR. GRANT: Q When you were at Kisgagas do you remember if any of the house groups that were there had a shortage of members or were in danger of dying out? THE INTERPRETER: He said people like to go where it's nice, just like you. You like to go where it's nice to live. And they scattered all over the place but when it's time to come back, when it's time to trap on their hunting grounds, then they come back when the season is right. MR. GRANT: Just go off the record for a moment. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you know of any wilp or house group at Kisgagas who had very few women and had to adopt women to ensure that the wilp would continue? A They don't take them in. They're in the house already. They know what they're doing in the house. Q Do you know of any house group in Kisgagas who adopted young children or young girls or young boys to protect themselves? That is, to ensure that they would continue in the future? 50 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant A Some of them did. But they married into that house. Just like your father, Steve Moore, came to Gitanmaax and married Mary Moore, your mother. He's from Kisgagas, so's your mother only she was raised in Gitanmaax but she's from 'Wiiminoosikx's house. Q Do you know what procedure the Gitksan houses used in the old days when due to sickness or war, or for any other reason the house membership became very small of a particular house? A No, they don't take anybody in. It's like Gitanmaax is Kisgagas, most of us are from Kisgagas. I'm from Kisgagas even. When I am a baby nobody knows where I'm from. It's like you, you're from Kisgagas too. Q Are you concerned about the House of 'Wiik'aax having too few members today? A No, I'm not worried about that because there's too many of them. They're just scattered all over the place, like Vancouver, Prince George, Ottawa and Montreal. I got a lot of relatives in Montreal. Q How old were you or do you remember what year that your family moved from Kisgagas to Hazelton or Gitanmaax? A I was about six years old when my family moved here. I was here at seven. They came --we came here to see the steam boat. That's why a lot of people from Kisgagas gathered all over the place, because they like the different foods like oranges and bananas and all kinds of fruits that the outside world had to offer. Q Did you return to Kisgagas after you had left at that age? A We are only here for a few days and then we went back to Kisgagas. Q When did you move from Kisgagas to Gitanmaax with your family to live in Gitanmaax? A I was sick, I was sick and old that's why I came back. There's no hospitals there, no school board, no stores and so we came back here for those reasons. There are still a lot of young people living out there now. Q Is David Gunanoot the holder of the name 'Niikyap? A Yes, he does hold the name but he is from Gitangasx. Q Do you know who held that name 'Niikyap before David Gunanoot ? A His grandmother, she was very old. Q Was her name Jenny Haiwas? A No. Q Can you tell us her name? A She was in Gitangasx and she heard that name, 'Niikyap, she took it, she didn't have a feast. She took a lot of names from the Nass too. 51 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant MR. GRANT: Go off the record for a moment, the Reporter has a question. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. GRANT: Back on the record. Q Was Jenny alive at the time that you were born? Do you remember her if she was? A She was quite old, she was about 80 or 90. I was already married when she died. Q Where did she die? A She died in Kisgagas and after she came from Gitangasx she was living there. Q Was there a feast at the time of her death in Kisgegas? A At that time I was fishing at the coast and I don't know. Q Do you know a person whose name was Moses 'Niikyap? A Yes, I do. She was related to this old lady, David Gunanoot's grandmother. Q Was Moses 'Niikyap alive during your lifetime? A Yes, I did see him. He died in Kispiox. Q Do you recall approximately how old you were when he died? A I was already married. I must have been about 21 when he died. Q Were you taken or adopted for a short time by Peter 'Wiigyet? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE INTERPRETER: He doesn't recognise that name. MR. 0'BYRNE: Just for the record, Mr. Grant, I want to put on the record the fact that there appeared to be a discussion between the Translator and the Witness at that time. THE INTERPRETER: He didn't know what I was saying. He said 'Wiigyet and I had to mention Peter again, Peter 'Wiigyet. Than I said Pete 'Wiigyet to try, you know, he might have known him by Pete 'Wiigyet or Peter 'Wiigyet, but he didn't recognise the name. MR. GRANT: He didn't recognise any of the variations? THE INTERPRETER: No. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. GRANT Q Were you taken in by Mabel Jackson when you were a baby? A Yes, she did look after me for quite a long time. Then my dad took me from her. Q Was Mabel Jackson's name Baskyelaxha? 52 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant A Yes, that was her name. She wasn't supposed to take it because she was a woman but she was the only one left and she took it. Q When you say she was the only one left, do you mean she was the only one left in her house that could inherit the chief's name? THE INTERPRETER: I nodded to him. He asked me who it was and I said -- I agreed. He asked me if it was Mabel, and he said she was the only one in that house so she took me, she adopted me into that house because she was the only one in there. BY MR. GRANT: Q What clan is Baskyelaxha? A She's Wolf Tribe, same as 'Wiik'aax. Q I believe you told us already but just to be clear, did Baskyelaxha have a separate house from 'Wiik'aax? A Yes, they're quite different. She did come out of that house, Tsimgaak. Q So is it correct that BAskyelaxha came out of Tsimgaak's house at some earlier time? A No, I didn't, I was a baby. I didn't -- I didn't know at the time, I was still a baby. Q From what your father and your mother and your grandparents told you, was Baskyelaxha a member of 'Wiik'aax's house? At the time that Baskyelaxha took you in when you were a baby? A Baskyelaxha is from 'Wiik'aax's house but Baskyelaxha moved before the time of my mother and my father. Q I believe you told us that Baskyelaxha had a house and the name of that house was Anskaskii, is that correct? A Yes, that's the name. It was made just recently but 'Wiik'aax had his house a long time ago. Q Were you a baby when Baskyelaxha took care of you? A I was 13 when my dad took me on his trapline. His father's name was 'Niist, he was my grandfather. MR. GRANT: When you say his father's name was 'Niist, did he indicate Thomas was referring to his own father or his father's father? THE INTERPRETER: His grandfather's name was 'Niist. BY MR. GRANT: Q Before your father took you on your trapline when you were 13, had you been with Baskyelaxha all that time, or had 53 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant your mother and father taken you back? A No, they didn't. Baskyelaxha died in Hazelton and Peter 'Wiigyet, my father, and my parents Alfred and Sarah 'Wiiminoosikx had me. Q How old were you when those other people took you back from Baskyelaxha? Or when Baskyelaxha died? A I was 13 years old and I was given a lot money and I banked it. THE INTERPRETER: He saved it. THE WITNESS: That' s why I was given a lot of land because I paid for all the funeral expenses of the people that died. MR. GRANT: I would like to come back to that later. Q You told us the other day one of the first names you got was Amayee; were you given that name when Baskyelaxha took care of you or after you returned to your father? A It was after my mother took me back, that's when I had Amayee. MR. GRANT: I'm sorry, your answer was after my mother? THE INTERPRETER: It was after my mother took me back, that's when my name was Amayee. BY MR. GRANT: Q You already told us I believe that your mother gave you this name, the other day, was there a feast held when you were given that name? A Peter Jackson gave me Ganaaw'mgan when I was living there. Then he took it back after I left him. Q How was Peter Jackson related to Mabel Jackson? A They were married. Peter Jackson was Fireweed and Mabel Jackson was Lax Gibuu. THE INTERPRETER: That's Wolf. MR. GRANT: Can you read back or try the best you can the name that Peter Jackson gae him, a couple of answers back? OFF THE RECORD BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you still hold the name Ganaaw'mgan? A Mabel Jackson gave it to somebody else and that person died at Cedarvale. Q Do you know who she gave it to? That person's English name? A Jimmy Tait. Q Was Ganaaw'mgan a name that we would call a child's name? THE INTERPRETER: He said he stayed a long time in Kitwanga and then he moved to Cedarvale. 54 WRIGHT., T. In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q Was it Jimmy Tait that stayed at Kitwanga? A Yes, it was Jimmy Tait Q If you had stayed with Baskyelaxha's family and had been raised by them, would you have acquired rights to use Baskyelaxha's territory? A Yes, I would have but they gave me one already, it's called Xsageitsik, on this side of Kisgagas. As yet I haven't walked on it. Q Whose territory if Xsageitsik? A Baskyelaxha. Q Did your father or your mother or your grandparents tell you why your father and mother took you back from Baskyelaxha? -- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: No, they didn't tell me. I think they died, that is why they took me back. MR. GRANT: I see. Q When you were given the name Amayee, was that in recognition that you were once again a member of the House of 'Wiik'aax? A Yes, it was because I cam back to 'Wiik'aax's house, that is why they gave me that name. Amayee is from 'Wiik'aax's house. Q At that time did all the chiefs of Kisgagas recognise you as a member of 'Wiik'aax's house? Q Did anyone tell you whether or not there was a feast held when you got that name? A Yes, they did have feast, that's when they put that name on me. Q Who put on the feast? A My mother and my father. Q After you received the name Amayee were you given any other names before your present name? A It was after I married, that's when they put Guuhadakxw and Ha'idax on me. MR. GRANT: Guuhadakxw and Ha'idax? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. He only uses one. BY MR. GRANT: Q Were you ever given the name Xsuwis? A They did give it to me but my relative over here in Gitanmaax, they didn't want me to use that name again. That is Neil Sterritt's mother so I didn't use it again. 55 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant Q Was this Neil Sterritt's Senior's mother? A Yes it was. Q You're not referring to the Neil Sterritt that's present? THE INTERPRETER: He said yes, it is. It's his mother -- excuse me -- he didn't see me pointing to Neil but I think he is talking about Gitanmaax. MR. GRANT: We'll clarify that. Let's clarify it again. Q Is it the grandmother of Neil Sterritt who is sitting here that you are talking about? A No, I didn't see his grandmother, she was in Kispiox. I was prospecting at that time when she died. Q How old were you when you were given the name Xsuwis? A I was just a small kid, I don't know my age. I didn't know I was going to be asked. Q Can you tell us what the name Xsuwis means? A It's water from the sky. My grandmother didn't tell me. Q Did you receive that name at a feast as well? A Yes, they did give it to me at the feast. Q Who gave you that name? A 'Wiik'aax. That is when he was still alive. He's our leader. Q Are you referring to Danny 'Wiik'aax? A Yes, it was Danny 'Wiik'aax. Q Is it correct the next thing you received after Xsuwis was Guuhadakxw? A After they gave me Amayee Q Just continue? A After they gae me Amayee I didn't use Xsuwis any more. Q Okay. A I didn't have Guuhadakxs. Q So, I just want to get the order correctly, Thomas. Was the first name you were given Xsuwis and then Amayee? A It was after my father died Peter Jackson and Mabel Jackson they took me back and gave me Amayee. It was 'Wiik'aax's name, Amayee. Q Was it after that that 'Wiik'aax gave you Xsuwis? A I think... THE INTERPRETER: Well, he said, I was a small boy --he was a small boy, earlier, I don't know if I mentioned it, he said he was 13 when he got Amayee. BY MR. GRANT: Q What order were you given the names Guuhadakxw and Ha'idax? Which one came first? A At the same time, it's the same. Q I believe you have tol dus this happened when you were a young man, is that correct? 56 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant A Yes I was old enough at that time when I got it. Guuhadakxw died and Ha'idax died and that is when I took them but I don't use it. Q You don't use Ha'idax, is that right? THE INTERPRETER: He said he uses Amayee and he doesn't use Ha'idax or Guuhadakxw. BY MR. GRANT: Q Can you tell us what Ha'idax means? A It's a village somewhere. It could be up in the Nass or a village near Port simpson. Q Is Ha'idax a Gitksan word? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: Ha'idax is from Kisgagas. THE INTERPRETER: He asked me and I said, repeated my question. BY MR. GRANT: Q You said that Guuhadakxw and Ha'idax died and that is when you got their names; do you remember who held the name Guuhadakxw before you? A Frank Clark, he died. He is from Kisgagas, then he came here. Q Did you take the name Guuhadakxw at the time of his funeral? A It was Beal Muldoe that died, that's when I took that name. Q Did Beal Muldoe hold the name Guuhadakxw right after Frank Clark? A Yes, they died, that's when I took those names. Q Did Edward Clark hold the name Guuhadakxw before Frank Clark? A Kyeexw is what Edward Clark held. He was the first one in the family. MR. GRANT: What was the name you said? THE INTERPRETER: Kyeexw. BY MR. GRANT: Q Are the names Guuhadakxw and Ha'idax names of sub chiefs in the House of 'Wiik'aax? A They're from the same house but they split up. Q In the old days would Guuhadakxw and Ha'idax sit close to 'Wiik'aax at the feast? A It's possible that they would. If another village set up the feast then they would sit at the same table but in Kisgagas they would have their own seats at different tables. Q Who would sit at the head of the table where Guuhadakxw would sit? 57 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant A When they go to different place they would sit together on the same table but when they're at Kisgagas they sit separately. Q Would Guuhadakxw sit at the head of his own table if they were at a feast at Kisgagas? A Yes, he has his own table. Q Would Ha'idax sit at the same table as Guuhadakxw or would he sit at the head of this own table if there was a feast at Kisgagas? Q Do you know what name Peter Jackson held? A 'Wiigyet. Q So he was simooget or chief at Kisgagas himself? A Yes, he was the head chief of the Kisgegas at one time. Through the years, it could be different head chiefs throughout the years and at another time there might a different head chief. MR. GRANT: We are going to go off the record for a moment to change the video tape. SHORT RECESS OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. GRANT: Q Would you call Peter Jackson your father as well as Xsimxsan? A Yes, they're both my fathers but Peter Jackson adopted me, and Mabel Jackson. Q I just want to clarify for the record something you said earlier today. Is it correct that Peter Jackson also known as 'Wiigyet together with Mabel Jackson, his wife, kept you and raised you until you were about 13? A It must have been a long time they were looking after me because I was 13 when I started walking around with my dad. Q Was your natural mother Sarah 'Wiiminoosikx, who held the name Haadit? A Yes, he was my real mother. Q Was your natural father Alfred 'Wiiminoosikx who held the name Xsimxsan? A Yes, he was. Q Thank you, Thomas. When you returned to your father was your mother, Sarah 'Wiiminoosikx, alive? A Yes, she still alive. She died in 1940. MR. GRANT: I just want to clarify, I just didn't hear you. Did you say 1914 or 1940? 58 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant THE INTERPRETER: Yes, she was still alive. She died in 1940. BY MR. GRANT: Q Could your father, Alfred 'Wiiminoosikx prophesy or fore tell the future? A I don't know, I can't tell how another person lives. MR. GRANT: Go off the record for a moment. -- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. GRANT: We'll go back on the record. I probably confused you, Thomas. Q Is it correct that Sarah 'Wiiminoosikx's husband was Albert Wright? A Yes. THE INTERPRETER: I asked him if his name was Alfred Wright, his real father, and he agreed that was right. MR. GRANT: I want to be clear on the first name. I had asked if it was Albert, is it Albert or Alfred? THE INTERPRETER: He said my daddy didn't tell me which name he used. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you know him as Xsimxsan? A Yes, that was him. Q At this stage when I refer to Xsimxsan I am referring to your father who was married to Sarah 'Wiiminoosikx. Could Xsimxsan tell the future and did he explain to you how he could foretell the future? A No, he didn't tell me anything. Daddy didn't tell me anything. Q Is there a reason why you did not take the name 'Wiik'aax? A There are too many different people that are -- that want the name and at that time I was quite young so I just didn't bother taking it. Q Were you trained as a young man in the skills that you would need as you grew older, as an adult? A No, nobody did. That's why my daddy took me to all these feasts, to show me the ways of the people and the way I am going to be when I grow up. Q Which peson took you to these feasts? You say your father was this Peter Jackson or was this Xsimxsan? A It's Xsimxsan. Q Did Xsimxsan teach you what went on at the feasts and why the people were doing what they did there? A No, I went with him and I seen the way the people held the feasts. 59 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant Q When you went to the feasts with your father, Xsimxsan, did you sit beside him or did you sit somewhere else? A I was just small, I was young and I just sat beside him and he fed me. He passed me dishes of food. Q Did your mother go to those feasts as well? A Yes, she did go but she put in money in the feast. It is the Wolf Trie that is putting the feasts up but I just went with my parents because I was a young person. Q Did your father teach you how to hunt and trap animals? A Yes, he did. I went around with him on the grounds, on the hunting ground and he showed me how to kill beavers. Q When you lived with your father and mother, did you live in a wilp and, if so, whose wilp? A It was 'Wiik'aax's house. Q Did Danny 'Wiik'aax live in that house with you? A His house was in Gitanmaax because he married a Gitanmaax. Q Who else lived in that house with you? A There's only three of us in that house, and then 'Wiik'aax would come and then I would go with him, and thre would be only my parents in that house left. Left in that house. Q When you went with 'Wiik'aax, is that when you went to the territory? A Yes, I always did go with 'Wiik'aax, but I liked going with my dad because I came back to him and I was lonely for him, and I was happy to get back with him. That's how a child is. Q Did your dad, Xsimxsan, go with you and 'Wiik'aax sometimes to 'Wiik'aax's territory? A Yes, he does come with us and also mother. Q When you went on that territory, you described yesterday how you would get there, and you described it as being across from Xsu'wiiaks: did 'Wiik'aax's or your mother show you how far it was? That is, where 'Wiik'aax's territory ended if you continued up north? A Xsigwinhliiyun is where is 'Wiik'aax's, and Brown is on this side, and 'Wiik'aax's wilp is on the north, and it gets to Xsigwinhliiyun. MR. GRANT: What is that last name again. THE INTERPRETER: Xsigwinhliiyun. BY MR. GRANT: Q Is Xsigwinhliiyun a river or a mountain? A It's water, it's a river. It's the water of moose. THE INTERPRETER; He said hliiyun means moose. BY MR. GRANT: Q If you travel from Xsu'wiiaks to Xsigwinhliiyun how long 60 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant would it take you to travel that distance walking? A Not too long, after you THE INTERPRETER: I asked him after you leave Danny Brown's land and you wak on your land, how long does it take you to get to Xsigwinhliiyun, I said, and he said not too long, it only takes one day. BY MR. GRANT: Q Do you know whose territory is on the other side of Xsigwinhliiyun? Which chief's territory? A On the other side of Xsigwinhliiyun it's 'Wiiminoosikx, and on this side it's Wiik'aax's. Q Now, if instead continuing north you travelled east, that is after you cross Xsu'wiiaks you turned to your right, do you know where the boundary of 'Wiik'aax's territory is on this side? A It takes about a day to walk because we're too busy trapping marten. That's why it takes us too long, because we're trapping. MR. GRANT: That's the entire answer? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q Is there a river or a creek or a mountain on that side of Wiik'aax's territory which delineates or marks out his boundary? A After you get to Xsigwinhliiyun, then you go to a lake called Tuutaadii Lake, and that's the boundary. Q If you are travelling between Xsu'wiiaks and Xsigwinhliiyun is that lake on yoru right side or your left side? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: You go up Xsigwinhliiyun, the river, and there's a parting of the mountains and you go through that and then you get to Tuutaadii Lake. MR. GRANT: Did he indicate which way? He made hand gestures. THE INTERPRETER: To the right. I think. Xsigwinhliiyun goes, must run this way. BY MR. GRANT: Q Whose territory is on the other side of Tuutaadii Lake? THE INTERPRETER: He doesn't know. It's Bear Lake's and he doesn't walk around with them. THE WITNESS: I prospect on that land, that's why I was walking on that land, and my daddy knows when I walk on that land, I tell him. 61 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q When you refer to Bear Lake, are you referring to people who are not Gitksan? A Yes, the people of Bear Lake. Q Is there an Indian name for those people? A Midoo. Ts'ets'aut is the language of Midoo. THE INTERPRETER: He said, that's the Ts'ets'aut's language, Midoo, that name. BY MR. GRANT: Q Are they Ts'ets'aut people at Bear Lake? A No, I don't know. I was prospecting in the Skeena River area. Q After you cross Xsu'wiiaks into Wiik'aax's territory, if you turn and went to your left, or in a generally westerly direction, is there a river or mountain whihc markes the boundary on that side of Wiik'aax's territory? A I can't tell yo because I don't have a map. You guys have maps and you guys know. I was just prospecting on that land, that's why I was there at that time. MR. GRANT: I believe we'll adjourn now. It is 12 o'clock and we'll adjourn over until two o'clock. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.00 noon LUNCHEON RECESS UPON RESUMING AT 2.15 P.M. BY MR. GRANT: Q Is the Skeena River the western boundary of Wiik'aax's territory that we have been talking about? Q You talked about some territory belonging to Baskyelaxha that you had rights to, is the name of that territory Xsageitsik? A Yes, it is. Baskyelaxha own it. It is about five miles on this side of Kisgagas. Q Is it located on the Babine River? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: Gitamast is what they call Babine River. THE INTERPRETER: He said it drains into the Skeena and they meet. That's all he said. 62 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q Is Xsageitsik on the Skeena River? THE INTERPRETER: What was that pronunciation? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION THE WITNESS: Xsugwinlik' i' nsxw is what they call the Babine River. THE INTERPRETER: The one he mentioned runs into the Babine River. BY MR. GRANT: Q Is there a mountain where this territory of Baskyelaxha is? A Yes, the water comes from the mountain. Lax xsa anlakxs is the name of that mountain. Q Is there a name called Tsuwingeets near this territory of Baskyelaxha? A Lax xsa anlakxw is the name of that mountain. A It is a little bit further. It's about 16 miles from Ki sgegas, Tsuwingeet s. Q Did Nisga' or Stikine people come to Kisgegas while you were a young boy or a young man? A No, they didn't come. I was a small boy and I seen the same people there. Q Do you know of any Kisgegas people who married Stikine people? A Yes, they did. Then 'Wiiminoosikx went to Stikine and they came back again. They're living here now. Q Do you know who 'Wiiminoosikx married? A Jimmy John and Melulek, and he came into Melulek and his name was Alaist. Q Was Jimmy John a Nisga' or Stikine? THE INTERPRETER: He said Jimmy Johnson, his father, was Stikine. BY MR. GRANT: Q When he received the name -- who was his mother? A I didn't see her, she must have died a long time ago. Q Do you know if she was a Gitksan or Stikine person? A Jimmy Johnson's father was an Indian. He wasn't Stikine. It must have been a long time ago that 'Wiiminoosikx went there. THE INTERPRETER: And he mentioned Jimmy Johnson's father's Indian name and I forgot it, it slipped my mind. MR. GRANT: Ask him again? THE WITNESS: Guuiisgyetxw (?). BY MR. GRANT: Q Just to be clear, who was Guuiisgyetxw? 63 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant A Guuiisgyetxw was Jimmy Johnson's father. MR. GRANT: Okay. THE INTERPRETER: And he was from this side. BY MR. GRANT: Q What year did your father, Xsimxsan, die? A 1929. Q Did he die at Kisgagas? A Kisgagas. Q Was there a li'ligit or feast? A Me and my mother had a feast in Kisgagas, and then we come back here and had another feast here. We paid for all the funeral expenses. Q Is your father's relationship to you what is known as the wilksiwitxw in Gitksan? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE INTERPRETER: He said yes he is. I asked him again, I used his exact words -- Peter's exact words this time. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was it your responsibility to bury your father because he was your wilksiwitxw? A Yes, it's true. Word came to me where I was working that he was near death so I came back. Q Did you invite people from other villages to attend the feast at Kisgagas? A There are a lot of different people that came. Q Did Wet'suwet'en people come from Hagwilget or Moricetown? A No, there's none. Q Did people come from Babine? A No. Q Did people come from Gitanmaax? A They came back here and had another feast here. Q What chief ran the feast which was held after your father's death? A He died, his name was Peter Brown. Q What name did he hold at the time of your father's death? A I think his name was Welix. Q What house did he belong to? A From Xsimxsan's house, from 'Wiiminoosikx's house. They're both from 'Wiiminoosikx's house. Q You told us earlier that your father took you to feasts at Kisgagas when you were young; did people from the Nass or Nisga people come to any of those feasts at Kisgagas? A Yes, there's lot of people from different places that came. 64 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant I didn't ask them where they came from. There are a lot of people from Nisga' that were in Kisgagas. They're the ones that named it Kisgagas. Q Did people from the Stikine come to any of the feasts that you saw when you were a young boy or young man? A No. Q Did people from Babine come to any of the feasts held at Kisgagas? A No. Q Did people come from Kispiox or Gitanmaax come to any of the feasts held when you were a young man? A There's a lot of different people. This is our village. Q Did Kispiox people come to any feasts at Kisgagas? A They're always coming to the feasts. Q Did people come to Kisgagas from Gitsegyukla or Kitwanga for feasts? A No. Q Do you have rights to use your father's territory? A Yes, it's there but I'm too old to use it now. Q I understand that, Thomas. Would those rights be recognised at the feasts following your father's death? By recognise I mean would somebody have confirmed or stated that you had those rights? A I can't do it now. My dad has a lot of other relatives, there's lots of them. Q Thomas, I understand that you can't go out on the land now because of your age. I'm trying to determine if at the time of your father's death in 192 9 anyone spoke at the feast about your right to continue to go on your father's land? If you want that question broken up, she can re-read it to you. A My mother said I could but I haven't done, been on there. Q Did you put money in at your father's feast or did you put in goods, like foods and other things? A All the adults from Kisgagas were gone. There's nothing but school children there. Henry was there, my brother, and he helped out but he didn't help out with any money. Only me and my mom had the money. Q Do you remember how much money your mother put in at that feast? A My dad was a Lax seel and how much my mother put in, I don't know because I don't goto the pot and count it because the Lax seel are there to count it themselves. But Peter Brown spoke up, from here, Gitanmaax, and he said that I could use his land. Q Besides money did you contribute at the feast for your 65 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant father in Kisgagas or Gitanmaax food? A It must have been over a thousand dollars at that time that I helped out with my dad's funeral expenses because I was a Wolf -- I was a Wolf, I didn't have to do it. THE INTERPRETER: He helped out anyway. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was your father buried at Kisgagas or Gitanmaax? THE INTERPRETER: I forgot to mention, he said it was a blanket. It was a blanket for his father, gwila'dint. MR. GRANT: sorry, when you say it was a blanket, that he gave? THE INTERPRETER: Gwila'dint his father. MR. GRANT: He put money in? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. MR. GRANT: What was that word again? THE INTERPRETER: Gwila'dint. BY MR. GRANT: Q Just to be clear, the money you contributed for your father's funeral is called gwila'dint, and the food and other things you contributed? A Yes, it is. Q Was your father buried at Gitanmaax or Kisgagas? A In Kisgagas. Q Is it because there were less people at Kisgagas that Peter Brown also held a feast for your father in Gitanmaax? A Yes, that's true. There are no people left in the village of Kisgagas because they're all out -- they're traping on their hunting grounds. Q At the time of your father's death did the people come back to Kisgagas from their hunting grounds or did they have residences in Gitanmaax at that time? A Yes, they came back. MR. GRANT: Did he say to? THE INTERPRETER: Kisgagas. I asked him if they ame back to Kisgagas. MR. GRANT: I see. Q Besides teaching you about the feasts and taking you out on the hunting grounds were there any other things your father Xsimxsan taught you? THE INTERPRETER: He said yes, his father took him out on the grounds and showed him how to trap and showed him where the lands were, and how to hunt. I hadn't had time to finish my question and I asked him if he showed him anything else after that and he said, no, he didn't show me anything. 66 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q Could Peter Jackson predict how the fish runs would be at the time you were a small boy? A No, he didn't. He didn't tell me anything. Q How many children did you have? A About three of the males died, and I have about ten children now. Q What was your wife's name? A She has the same name as your mom. Her white name was Helen. THE INTERPRETER: He asked me "what was your mom's Indian name?" and I said Sikimluu, and he said "Yes, that's Helen's Indian name". BY MR. GRANT: Q Again to clarify, your wife's English name was Helen and her Indian name was Sikimluu? A Yes, that's true. Q What wilp did your wife belong to? A 'Wiiminoosikx's house. Q Did your parents or your grandfathers arrange or encourage you to marry Sikimluu? A No, they didn't encourage me. We just met and they knew that my dad was related to her. Q Was that relationship between your father and your wife because they were both in the house of 'Wiiminoosikx? A Xsimxsan was Helen's niece... THE INTERPRETER: Or grandchild? Helen was a grandchild of Xsimxsan. Not niece. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was Helen's mother Xsimxsan's sister? A No, they weren't. They weren't sisters. Lucy was born in a different place, just like I am. THE INTERPRETER: He was born in Kisgagas. MR. GRANT: Lucy was born in a different place? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. BY MR. GRANT: Q Is Lucy Helen's mother? A Yes. Q Was she born at Kisgagas? A No, she was born here. Q Did your grandfathers encourage you to marry somebody in the House of 'Wiiminoosikx? A No. Q I understand that Wiik'aax's house would belong to the 67 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant kalts'ap of Kisgagas, is that right? A Yes, that true. Right now, I seen it when I was small boy but, right now, they're rotten right down to the ground, you can't see them. Q Would it be correct to say that 'Wiiminoosikx's kalts'ap is Gitangasx? A 'Wiiminoosikx is from Kisgagas. Q Would it be right to say that 'Niikyap's kalts'ap is Kisgagas? A Well, he was really old when I seen him. Q What kalts'ap does 'Niikyap belong to? A They said Kisgagas but I was quite small. He was from Gitangasxk and then he came all the way over here. Q Are there other houses aside from Wiik'aax to which your house is closely related as a wilnat'ahl? A Yes, there's lots of houses. Melulek came from 'Wiiminoosikx's house. Q Are there other houses which Wiik'aax is related to closely from villages other than Kisgagas? A No. When I was small I just saw it in Kisgagas. Q Was there a feast held when you were first successful in hunting? A Yes, a lot of people gathered around and ate, and my dad told about my first kill. Q Thank you. Was that at Kisgagas? A Yes. Q Did people from the other houses at Kisgagas come to that feast? A It was just people from Kisgagas that came. Q Did people from the other houses outside of Wiik'aax or Xsimxsan's house come? A No. No, they didn't. THE INTERPRETER: I asked him again. Twice MR. GRANT: How are you feeling, Thomas? Are you a bit tired now? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he is tired but you guys are just about finished, I guess. MR. GRANT: We'll go off the record for a minute. SHORT RECESS BY MR. GRANT: Q Were you given another name at the time of your first kill? A No, they didn't but they just knew it was my first kill and all of Kisgagas had a taste of it. Q You said your father spoke and said what you did, did he do anything else at that gathering for you? 68 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant A No. Q Can you explain how Peter Brown was related to your father Albert Wright or Xsimxsan? A That was -- Xsimxsan was Peter Brown's uncle. Xsimxan and Peter Brown's mother were brother and sister. Q Did Peter Brown receive a name at Xsimxsan's funeral feast? A Yes, he did. He got Hlaam. THE INTERPRETER: I don't know what they mean by Hlaam. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. GRANT: Q What is Hlaam? Is that a name received? A He got Hlaam. He got the name Hlaam. It could mean alcohol or whiskey. MR. GRANT: Is that what he said, it could mean? THE INTERPRETER: It could mean whiskey or alcohol. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did Peter Brown later on get any other names from Xsimxsan's house? A No. Q Do you know if Wiik'aax had any other territories, other than this one you described on the other side of Xsu'wiiaks? A No, he doesn't. Q You earlier referred to territories held by Laats; is Laats in Wiik'aax's house? A They were the same house. They must be brothers. They built a totem pole. It was called xwts'aan. The white people call it totem pole. Q Did you see that totem pole? A Yes. THE INTERPRETER: He did see it. There's lots in Kispiox. There's lots in Kisgagas. There's some standing here too. BY MR. GRANT: Q Where did you see this pole that Wiik'aax and Laats had built? A Moses Stevens had one in Kispiox, and Charlie Clifford must be the one that's left now. Q Did you see any totem poles at Kisgagas when you were a young boy or young man? A They're already standing when I was born. That is when I was born. Q Do you remember how many poles that you saw there as you were growing up? 69 WRIGHT, T., In Chief Mr. Grant A Gwininitxw. Laats. 'Wiiminoosikw. Wiik'aax. 'Wiigyet. They all had their -- they all had poles. There was lots of poles. MR. GRANT: Could you just bo back through the list? THE REPORTER: Answer: "Gwininitxw. Laats. 'Wiiminoosikx. Wiik'aax. 'Wiigyet." MR. GRANT: Those are all he gave by name? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. He said there were lots of poles. MR. GRANT: Did he mention whether these poles were in front of the people's houses? THE INTERPRETER: I forgot to mention, they're in front of their houses. MR. GRANT: He did say that? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. MR. GRANT: So part of his answer was they were in front of the houses? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. MR. GRANT: Just one moment. Q Is Txa anlaxhatxw a chief in 'Wiiminoosikx's house? A They both have the same strength. Q Was Txa anlaxhatxw the chief, head chief in that house before 'Wiiminoosikx? A No, they're always the same. Q Do you remember who held the name Txa anlaxhatxw when you were young? A My dad held it. Txa anlaxhatxw died at the Nass, and he went there and he got that name and he brought it back. My son held it, Billy. His grandmother was mistaken to give it to him because he was a baby when he gave it to him, and my dad went back to this name Xsimxsan. Q Does anyone hold the name Txa anlaxhatxw now? A It's my daughter, Lavina. She's going to put it on her son after a while. It's the Indian law. Q So your daughter Lavina will pass Txa anlaxhatxw to her son sometime in the future, is that right? Just to be clear? A Yes, that's true. Q Did your wife, Helen, ever hold or take care of the name Txa anlaxhatxw? A No. Just Billy was a baby when he got it. Q You may have answered this already, can you tell me Billy's last name? A He uses my name. Q So that is Billy Wright? THE INTERPRETER: He asked who you mean? BY MR. GRANT: Q So that is Billy Wright? 70 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Billy Wright, that is his son. BY MR. GRANT: Q Was your father Albert Wright also known as Matthew Wright? A Yes, his other name was Matthew. He got that from the Catholic, and he got Alfred Wright from The Salvation Army. Q That's Albert Wright? THE INTERPRETER: Alfred. MR. GRANT: Alfred? THE INTERPRETER: He just said it. You have been saying Albert. MR. GRANT: Yes, I have been saying that. I want to be clear on that. I think I asked it before. I think it's on the record in any event. Q When did your wife, Helen, die? A It's about ten years now. Q Did 'Wiiminoosikx's house hold a funeral feast at the time of your wife's death? A It was you guys own tribe that put it up. Q Just for the record, Thomas, when you're saying it was your guys own, are you referring to the house Norman belongs to? THE INTERPRETER: He said, it's your house. That's all he said. MR. GRANT: Did he say the House of 'Wiiminoosikx? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he said it's your .... MR. 0'BYRNE: Maybe go off the record for a minute, Mr. Grant? MR. GRANT: Yes, go off the record. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. GRANT: On the record. Q I understand from your answer, Thomas, that it's Lax seel or Frog Tribe who put up the funeral feast for your wife, Helen? A Yes, that's true. You guys were the ones that put it up. MR. GRANT: Just for the record, we took a break to clarify this and I am asking you, Norman, the Interpreter, when he is referring to "you guys" his answer is he's referring to you, Norman, is that right? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it is, Frogs. MR. GRANT: And you are in the Frog Tribe? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. MR. GRANT: Just so we know. Q Did anyone take the name Xsimxsan since your father's death? A No, nobody has taken it. Lavina was supposed to have taken it but she hasn't taken it yet, it's not settled. Q You indicated earlier that Txa anlaxhatxw and Xsimxsan 71 WRIGHT, T. In Chief Mr. Grant have the same strength; does that mean that Txa anlaxhatxw is responsible for taking care of Xsimxsan's territory? A Yes. MR. GRANT: I would just like to go off the record for a couple of moments. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. GRANT: Go back on the record. Q Can you tell us what Txa anlaxhatxw means? A You don't call it chief's name. It's the sky. What we're looking at now. That is the meaning. Q You may have clarified my own mistake with your answer, Thomas. Earlier I asked if Xsimxsan -- I assumed that Xsimxsan and Txa anlaxhatxw have the same strength; is it correct that 'Wiiminoosikx and Txa anlaxhatxw are the chiefs of that house with the same strength? A Yes, they are the same strength. There's three of them in 'Wiiminoosikx's house. There's Txa anlaxhatxw, Xsimxan and 'Wiiminoosikx, and they all have the same strength. MR. GRANT: Thank you. I would like to adjourn at this time. We'll just go of the record for a moment. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. GRANT: Just go on the record. The Interpreter has indicated to me that Thomas is getting tired and I think by agreement with counsel we are going to adjourn now to the date we have arranged between counsel. MR. 0'BYRNE: That's correct. I agree. MR. GRANT: Thank you. PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3.35 p.m. TO BE RESUMED WEDNESDAY, 3 0 APRIL, 1986 I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein, to the best of my skill and ability. Veronica Harper (Ms) Official Court Reporter B.C.S.R.A. #263 VH: 24 Feb/86
Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts
[Commission Evidence of Thomas Wright Vol. 1] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 19, 1986
Item Metadata
Download
- Media
- delgamuukw-1.0018345.pdf
- Metadata
- JSON: delgamuukw-1.0018345.json
- JSON-LD: delgamuukw-1.0018345-ld.json
- RDF/XML (Pretty): delgamuukw-1.0018345-rdf.xml
- RDF/JSON: delgamuukw-1.0018345-rdf.json
- Turtle: delgamuukw-1.0018345-turtle.txt
- N-Triples: delgamuukw-1.0018345-rdf-ntriples.txt
- Original Record: delgamuukw-1.0018345-source.json
- Full Text
- delgamuukw-1.0018345-fulltext.txt
- Citation
- delgamuukw-1.0018345.ris
Full Text
Cite
Citation Scheme:
Usage Statistics
Share
Embed
Customize your widget with the following options, then copy and paste the code below into the HTML
of your page to embed this item in your website.
<div id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidgetDisplay">
<script id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidget"
src="{[{embed.src}]}"
data-item="{[{embed.item}]}"
data-collection="{[{embed.collection}]}"
data-metadata="{[{embed.showMetadata}]}"
data-width="{[{embed.width}]}"
async >
</script>
</div>
Our image viewer uses the IIIF 2.0 standard.
To load this item in other compatible viewers, use this url: https://iiif.library.ubc.ca/presentation/cdm.delgamuukw.1-0018345/manifest