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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-05-27] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 27, 1987

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 636  1  2 MAY 27, 1987  3 SMITHERS, B.C.  4  5 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  6 Columbia, this 27th day of May 1987, Delgam Uukw and  7 others and Her Majesty the Queen.  8 Witness, I remind you you're still under oath.  You  9 may sit down.  10 THE WITNESS: Yes.  11 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant?  12 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I'd like to refer the court to Tab 1 of the —  13 Exhibit 17 I believe of the document book.  14 THE COURT:  Yes?  15 MR. GRANT:  I'm not going to refer the witness to it.  I want to  16 say something with respect to the genealogies which is  17 for the benefit of the court and my friends, My Lord,  18 that there has been a report produced to my friends by  19 Heather Harris with respect to Gitksan kinship and  20 genealogy, and I just want to set out the status of  21 these genealogies.  22 The genealogical -- she states at page two of the  23 report that: "The genealogical research is continuing.  24 This report is dated January of 1987, but it is now  25 nearly so nearly complete especially in its important  26 aspects such as House members, spouses and chiefs'  27 names that any additional information will not change  28 the nature of the conclusions."  And she goes on to  29 refer to -- just a moment, that:  "The research can  30 never be complete because genealogies are living  31 things.  People die, names are passed on, people  32 marry, babies are born, and adoptions occur."  33 And so the first point I wish to make is that --  34 that the genealogical charts that are being produced  35 are to assist the court in following the evidence of  36 the witness.  They are not being produced as a final  37 complete version and in some case the witness may add  38 to them.  Secondly, that the -- I've checked this with  39 the -- with the interpreters and the others who are  40 working on the name lists and the glossary and the  41 names' spellings on the genealogies may not be  42 correct, the same spellings exactly, as are in the  43 lists being provided to the court, and we would ask  44 the court and my friends not to rely on the spellings  45 of Gitksan names in the genealogies where there is a  46 different spelling in the lists of names provided to  47 the court.  That again is just because of the 637  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 THE COURT  10  11  12  13  14  15 MR  16 THE  17  18  19  2 0 MR.  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  30  31 MR.  32  33 THE  34 MR.  35  36 THE  37 MR.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GOLDI  COURT  GOLDI  orthography and I just wanted to set that straight  before we started.  Now, with respect, given the comments made by the  court, and unless my friends object, I intend to lead  the witness in this area and not refer her directly to  the genealogy, but just to the names of the people,  then the court will be able to follow through to get a  sense of the membership in this house.  : While you're on the subject of names, Mr. Grant, I  have to tell you that I have received some information  from the reporters that they are having a very, very  difficult time.  And it will be exceedingly helpful if  you could in your questions use numbers on lists that  have been furnished --  :  Yes.  :  -- in addition to, if necessary, the actual name.  We're not -- we're not entitled to impose this sort of  regime on reporters, Mr. Grant.  We have to do better  than we did yesterday.  : Yes, the reporter spoke with me yesterday afternoon.  We have a list.  I have two lists to provide to the  court which have been prepared for the reporters which  anticipate the evidence.  One list from numbers 1 to  46, which are names we anticipate will come up in Mrs.  Johnson's evidence, the second is a list starting at  the number 300 and going up to 344 and it is a list of  place names on the territory and I've got an  additional copy for the court.  :  Well, I've instructed the reporters to scream out if  they have difficulty, and I expect them to do so.  :  Yes, and I spoke with the reporters afterwards  and --  :  Thank you.  E: My Lord, may I make a comment with respect to this  question of genealogies?  :  Yes, certainly.  E: Your Lordship has already heard some comments on  that.  What I'm concerned with is that piecemeal  production of genealogies.  It is self-evident that  genealogies are never fixed by reason of births and  deaths.  What we asked for on March the 2nd was the 50  genealogical charts which Heather Harris then  described as the main product of her research.  Now,  we didn't receive anything in response to that and on  the opening of the trial when Mrs. McKenzie was called  as a witness there was -- of course her genealogy was  produced, and it was dated -- it's marked document 638  1 number 89, updated April the 8th, 1987.  2 I spoke to my friends and I said "Would it not be  3 possible to provide us with the other documents which  4 correspond to what we found in the Exhibit number 2  5 for identification before the witnesses come on the  6 stand?"  And I was advised that they would do what  7 they could.  On the 22nd we were furnished with the  8 genealogy of Mrs. Johnson and that document is dated  9 March the 17th, 1987.  It seems odd that that could  10 not have been delivered to us before this.  It is  11 document number 81.  I'm referring to the  12 identification on the document itself.  13 The rule, which is Rule 26, Sub-rule 14, provides  14 that "Unless the court otherwise orders, where a party  15 fails to make discovery of or produce for inspection a  16 copy of a document as required by this rule, he may  17 not put that document in evidence in the proceeding or  18 use it for the purpose of examination or  19 cross-examination."  We do not want to object on the  20 basis of that rule.  It is -- if it was to be invoked  21 it would simply delay the trial.  What we do want is  22 some measure of co-operation from our friends in  23 providing us with these genealogies, which on the  24 basis of the two examples we have now, have been in  25 existence for sometime, even if Heather Harris has to  26 update them at some later date to record births,  27 deaths and marriages.  The importance of that to us is  28 self-evident.  We have endeavoured to construct a  29 genealogy for the witnesses who provided us with  30 interrogatories.  It is a time consuming task and it  31 would be of great convenience to us if we could simply  32 put that sort of thing to one side and have the kind  33 of document that is now before the court with respect  34 to all of the forthcoming witnesses and presumably on  35 the same basis as we have them now.  36 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay, do you have anything to add to what  37 Mr. Goldie has said before I call on Mr. Grant to  38 reply?  39 MR. MACAULAY: Only this.  The cross-examination of the first  40 witness has demonstrated that a number of the  41 questions that we asked and ought to ask the witness  42 concerns her relatives both of the mother's and the  43 father's side.  They -- that evidence, in turn, leads  44 us to documents in our possession such as estate  45 files.  We have to determine whether or not any given  46 estate file may be relevant or not relevant, and many  47 other documents of like nature, a very large number of 639  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  documents of like nature.  I'm not dealing now with  hundreds of documents, but thousands of documents, of  files of documents.  If we are provided, as Mr. Goldie  put it, piecemeal with these genealogies our task is  that much more difficult, not impossible, but it's  more difficult.  But there's another problem, the form  of the genealogy in the case of this witness is in --  is such that in order to be understandable it has to  be put together by -- in our office in a sort of table  form on one large sheet in order to be able to  understand it because, as you'll see, the lines go to  the end of the page and that refers you to a page  perhaps seven or eight pages away, and it's very  difficult to read in this form.  It's most  inconvenient if we have to wait until each witness  comes up.  Now, in the case of the first witnesses we do have  a bit of time because they're very lengthy witnesses,  but we understand from what Mr. Grant says, some of  the subsequent witnesses will be a lot briefer and we  won't have that five or six or seven days before  cross-examination in order to cope with them.  We'll  be forced to ask for adjournments from time to time if  we don't -- if this regime continues.  :  Thank you.  Mr. Grant?  :  Thank you, My Lord.  With respect to the genealogies  I would like to set out the status of them.  :  Well, can we not get to something very briefly?  This really goes on and on so much that we seem to  waste so much time, Mr. Grant.  Do you not have  genealogies for other witnesses similar to the one  that I have before me in Exhibit 17 that you can give  your friends?  :  What's happened is that a number of them are  completed.  I've requested the genealogist to complete  the balance.  They must be reviewed.  I'd like you to  refer for example to the first page of the genealogy  here.  At the very bottom under Cheryl Stewart there's  two additional names.  That information came about at  a later date.  :  Could your friends not have the copies as they're  available now, that is, subject to revision as is  always the case?  :  Yes.  All we're seeking as counsel is an opportunity  to review them.  The genealogies are being prepared as  quickly as possible.  I've instructed the person to  prepare them as quickly as possible.  As they're 640  1 coming to us we're having them reviewed.  It's not our  2 intent to produce the genealogies one at a time as  3 each witness comes up.  We feel that we're -- we'll be  4 able to have a large bulk of them done.  As soon as  5 counsel have a chance to review them, we're going to  6 deliver them.  7 THE COURT:  But when your friends complained about the late  8 delivery of the genealogy for Mrs. McKenzie, they  9 pointed out that it was dated in April and we were  10 then in May.  At that time they asked for genealogies.  11 It appears that at that time the present Exhibit 17  12 must have been in your possession.  13 MR. GRANT:  No, that's what I want -- you see, these notations  14 at the top are notations of the genealogist.  I can't  15 tell you at this point when -- what she's got updated.  16 When she has updated, that -- my understanding is that  17 means she's -- the last date on which she got  18 information, which she put on this genealogy, was  19 March 17, '87.  That is my understanding.  As soon as  20 these are coming into our hands, we're endeavouring to  21 review them and we anticipate producing a large body  22 of them as quickly as possible.  And I'm just --  23 that's the status of it, and as far as the later  24 witnesses are concerned, My Lord, I anticipate that my  25 friends will have them well ahead of the later  26 witnesses.  27 THE COURT:  Well, I don't find it a comfortable position to be  28 in, having to weigh the respective positions of the  29 due parties.  What appears to be unfair at the moment  30 is the late delivery of documents dated so much  31 earlier.  Now that, as you say, may not be the correct  32 perspective to put on it because the date may refer to  33 something else, but at the moment it appears at least  34 that your genealogist has held the documents back  35 longer than was absolutely necessary, at least for the  36 purpose of giving your friends a head start on their  37 research based upon the document.  38 Now, that may not be true either.  That's why I say  39 I find myself in the most uncomfortable position of  40 having to weigh these two positions.  All I can say is  41 it seems to me that it should be better than it is.  42 Can we not hear the end of this sort of complaint  43 and -- by getting information in a timely way for your  44 friends so they can deal with it in advance?  This  45 information, it seems to me, should have been produced  46 months ago under orders that were made at pre-trial  47 conference rulings.  Now, I don't say that that's 641  THE COURT  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 MR.  8  9  10 THE  11 MR.  12  13  14  15  16  17  1  19  2 0 MR.  21 MR.  22  23  24 THE  25  2 6 MR.  27 THE  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 MR.  35 THE  36  37  38  39  40  41 MR.  42  43  44  4 5 MR.  4 6 THE  4 7 MR.  GRANT:  COURT  GRANT  necessarily so.  I don't recall all the rulings that  were made, but we are wasting a lot of time, it seems  to me, on these questions of timely delivery and  things such as that, and can we not get on with it and  hear the end of that kind of -- at least have the end  of the need for that sort of complaint?  Well, My Lord I -- this particular genealogy as it  is right here was produced to me the day before I  delivered it to my friends.  All I can say about that --  And I'm going to try and resolve it, and if my  friends have further concerns I would recommend, I  agree, that they come to me or to my associates and  they raise the matter with us and say "If you don't do  it by this time, then we want to re-raise it with the  court.", and we can deal with it outside the court  time.  I can't tell your friends how they should make  their --  MACAULAY: That hasn't worked, My Lord.  GOLDIE: We did, My Lord.  I don't mind these comments being  made by my friend Mr. Grant, but I ask him to be  accurate.  Well, I think we should get on with the trial,  gentlemen.  I'd like to get on with it.  At the moment, Mr. Grant, and this may be deciding a  case by the well known process of leaping to false  conclusions, but I would suggest that perhaps your  genealogist hasn't given you the documents in as  timely a way as she might.  Maybe it's as simple as  that.  Can you have a word with her and perhaps solve  the problem?  Yes, I've been -- I have, and I will have again.  Because, as we all know, they're going to be subject  to amendments and corrections, so if there is  documentation that's in existence now, surely subject  to correction it can be delivered.  I'll have to leave  it with you because I don't see how I can do anything  more than that.  MACAULAY: There's another -- perhaps my friend can explain  to the court and to counsel what some of the symbols  mean, for instance, the diagonal line through a circle  on the first page?  There is --  Such as Cheryl Stewart?  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  MACAULAY: Yes,  I take it that the dots in the centre mean 1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GRANT  642  that they've died?  I can't be sure of that, I'm just  assuming that because one of them was born in 1876.  Probably has died.  The dots in the middle means a person has died.  Yes.  There is an explanatory commentary that I was  concerned that my friends may object to production to  the court, it's something that would explain what the  circles the triangles are.  Obviously the circles are  women, the triangles are men, and the lines and the  equal signs and the dotted lines --  :  Well, could you not give your friends something  without giving it to me?  :  No, I have no difficulty at all with that, if that  would assist them, and I also would suggest that it  may be worthwhile to give it to the court just so that  you should have some equal understanding.  :  Oh, I don't expect that.  I'll get it in due course.  All right.  Let's get on with the trial.  :  Thank you.  And just one other -- the point I want  to make about this, My Lord, is these charts for  convenience I put them in this book form.  If one  spread them out, these are numbered pages and they  would stretch out, this one of course several feet  long, this particular one, but I thought for  convenience it was easiest to deal with it in this  way.  :  Thank you.  Okay.  Mrs. Johnson, you've indicated that you held  the name Antgulilbix, and before you held that name  your Aunt Emily Latz held that name?  Yes.  And when did she receive that name?  That's when --  It's on page 3, My Lord.  When the -- when they raise the marble stone with  one-horn goat in 1916.  Okay.  And before she held that name, in 1916 who held  that name?  Uncle George Williams.  Okay.  And it was in 1916 that George Williams, your  uncle, gave the name -- he took the name Tsibasaa and  he gave your Aunt Emily Latz the name Antgulilbix?  Yes.  :  You didn't give us a number there, Mr. Grant. 643  1  Q  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  GRANT  37  38 THE  COURT  39 THE  TRANS  4 0 MR.  GRANT  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Oh, for the those two names, I'm sorry, My Lord. This  would be on the list of plaintiffs.  Number 1 is  Antgulilbix, this is the earlier list you have, My  Lord, and number 66 is Tsibasaa.  Now, the name Tsibasaa, that name was held by -- is  held by Stanley Wilson, your brother?  Yes.  And he received that name in 1958?  No.  Yeah.  I remember Fred White got the name when  Uncle George died.  Yes?  Yeah, then after Fred died my brother Stanley took  over.  Thank you.  Now, Fred -- Fred took the name from  George Williams when he died, this was around 1944?  Yes.  And before George Williams took the name in 1916, who  held the name Tsibasaa?  I don't know, but they say -- I was told that somebody  held the name before that.  Fred White is on page 6 of the genealogy, My Lord.  And do you know how long the former holder of  Tsibasaa held the name before George, the one who held  it before George, how long he held it?  I don't know.  One of the wings of the chief is named Yal; is that  right?  Yes.  And I'm sorry, before I go to that, can you explain to  the court what Tsibasaa means translated?  It means that he caught the leg of a drumming grouse.  Before the grouse drums, he caught his leg, one of his  leg with a snare.  That's how they got the name  Tsibasaa.  That means Tsipxwa se'e, the Tsimsiam word  says Tsibasaa.  :   That's number 6, My Lord.  There is -- another name  in your House is Yal?  :  Number?  LATOR: Eighty-nine.  Eighty-nine on that list, My Lord.  The interpreter  is -- when she refers to "A", she's referring to the  list titled "List of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  Plaintiffs and Kitwancool Chiefs".  And Yal is Y-a-1.  And the present holder of that name in your House  is, of Yal?  Leonard Gawa. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  644  Leonard Gawa or Wilfred Gawa?  Wilfred Gawa.  Then next to Wilfred sits Leonard Gawa.  And before Wilfred Gawa held that name, Donald Mowatt  held the name?  Yes.  And before Donald Mowatt, who held the name?  His -- his brother Charles Mowatt.  And before Charles Mowatt held the name?  Albert Mowatt, that's the elder brother that lives in  Kispiox.  Okay.  And Albert Mowatt, do you recall when he took  that name?  No.  He already got the name as far as I can remember.  The next name I refer you to is Gwin lax nisims?  Yes.  That's number 13 on the list I provided you today, My  Lord, under names in Mary's House, page 2.  And that is held by Leonard Gawa?  Yes.  And before Leonard held that name, who held the name?  Alfred Latz.  And before Alfred Latz held the name?  That's my -- my other grandmother held it.  Uh-huh.  And is that Sarah Doll's mother?  Yes, Sarah Doll's mother.  Okay.  Now, Gwin lax nisims and Yal are both wings of  the chief?  Yes, they were wings and Ax goodim git gwooyim is  another one.  Okay.  And who holds that name today?  Martha Gawa.  That is —  Martha Joseph I mean.  Martha Joseph. That's number 14, My Lord, on the  list, and I'll refer here to page two of the list  provided today.  And before her who held that name?  Leonard Gawa.  And before Leonard?  Stanley.  My brother, Stanley Wilson.  Present holder of Tsibasaa?  Yes.  And before Stanley?  My mother.  And her name was Alice?  Alice, yes, Wilson.  Now, there's also a name in your House Kwoodaast? 645  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15 THE  COURT  16 MR.  GRANT  17  18  19 MR.  GRANT  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  That's number 11 on the list.  Yes.  And that's held by your daughter Brenda Stewart?  Yes.  And before her it was held by Wilfred Gawa?  Yes.  And who was it held by before Wilfred Gawa?  Our grandmother Edith Gawa.  And was that Wilfred's mother?  That's his grandmother that raised him.  It's on page one.  And before Edith held that name,  who held that name?  I remember an elderly man his -- his name is Xsim  Jolik and he got Kwoodaast too.  :  I'm sorry he got what too?  :  His name was Xsim Jolik, number 27 on the list, and  he got Kwoodaast as well, so she referred to the first  name, My Lord.  And before was his name David Hakst, this elderly man?  No, I didn't remember his white name, but that's what  grandmother calls him, Xsim Jolik.  Now, that name is also a wing of the chief in your  House?  Yes.  Now, you already have referred to your  great-great-grandmother who held the name Anhalagyax?  Yes.  And that's number 5 on the list, My Lord.  Yeah.  And who holds that name today?  Roseline Starr.  And before Roseline Starr has the name?  Harriet Gawa, my late cousin.  Okay.  She's on page 1, My Lord.  And before -- of the  genealogy.  And before her you held that name?  Yes.  And before you had that name it was -- it was your  great-great-grandmother?  Yes.  And is that name a wing of the chief's name as --  Yes.  -- a wing of the chief in your House?  Yes.  Now, there was another name, number 15, I'm try to  pronounce it Xhlax?  Xhlax. 646  1 MR. GRANT:   No, Xhlax.  Can you pronounce it?  2 THE TRANSLATOR:  Xhlax.  3 THE WITNESS:  Oh, yeah, Xhlax.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q And who was that name held by?  6 A David Harris.  7 Q And who held it before David?  8 A Late Moses Wilson.  9 Q And is that a wing of the chief's name?  10 A Yes.  11 Q And what does that name mean?  12 A It means he eats the fur, like the animals did, they  13 eat -- they eat the meat along with the fur.  14 Q Okay.  You referred to a name I believe yesterday, one  15 of the names you got, and it's Guxws didalkxw -- oh,  16 it would be number 8 on the list, Guxws didalkxw.  Is  17 that -- who held that name before you?  18 A Donald Mowatt.  19 Q And before Donald?  2 0 A I don't know.  21 Q And what does that name mean?  22 A It means he's talking to himself or she talks to  23 herself.  24 Q And you're presently holding that name?  25 A I'm still holding it today.  26 Q If that name was given to someone, would they be  27 sitting as a wing of the chief?  28 A Yes.  29 Q Now, I'd like to refer you specifically to the exhibit  30 itself, Tab 2 of the exhibit, the genealogy chart,  31 okay?  I just want you to verify that that is -- that  32 this certain thing -- features of this is correct.  33 You are on the first page on the right-hand side about  34 midway -- on the left-hand side about midway of the  35 page "Mary Johnson, Antgulilbix".  And you were  36 married both to Peter Angus and Wallace Johnson you've  37 indicated to us?  38 A Yes.  39 Q And your mother was Alice Gawa and your father was  40 George Wilson?  41 A Yes.  42 Q And your father was from Wii'mogulsxw's House?  43 A Yes.  44 Q And that would be your wilxsi witxw?  45 A Yes, both Wii'mogulsxw and Kliiyem lax haa.  46 Q Okay.  Wii'mogulsxw and Kliiyem lax haa?  47 A Yes. 647  1  THE  COURT  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  MR.  GRANT  28  29  MR.  GOLDI  30  31  32  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  MR.  GOLDI  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  39  40  41  MR.  GOLDI  42  43  44  45  46  MR.  GRANT  47  MR.  GOLDI  :  I don't think the reporter can be expected to take  those names down, Mr. Grant.  I'm sorry, My Lord, yes.  Wii'mogulsxw is on the first  list, number 78.  Kliiyem lax haa is on that same list  number 35.  And that is of the Wolf Clan, Wii'mogulsxw and  Kliiyem lax haa are of the Wolf Clan; is that right?  Yes.  Now, if you go up the chart, your mother's mother was  Edith Gawa?  Yes.  And when you refer in your evidence to your  grandmother, you're referring to Edith Gawa?  Yes.  And your mother's -- your grandmother's husband was  Daniel Gawa Ma'uus?  Yes, he comes from the House of Ma'uus.  Number 48 on the first list My Lord.  And your grandmother's mother was married to  someone from the House of Luutkudziiwas; is that  right?  Yes.  Number 44 My Lord?  Yeah, that's my -- my grandmother's mother married to  the house of Luutkudziiwas.  :   Now, if you go over to page 9 on that genealogy --  are you there?  E: My Lord, while the witness is looking at that,  perhaps my friend could favour us with a further  explanation of the symbols?  I take it the solid  circle and the solid triangle represents the holders  of the name of a House?  :  Oh, where it's filled in?  E: Yes.  :  I will -- that appears to be correct from this one.  I don't think it's the same  been done on all of them, I  certainly on that first page, Mary Johnson and Stanley  Wilson are.  E: Now, some of the circles and triangles, which are  not filled in, are given a heavier line, and that can  be seen by comparing page 1 with page 9, which we're  now referred to, at least that seems to be so on my  copy.  :  Yes.  E: Is there an explanation for that?  -- I don't know if that's  can verify that, but 648  1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  14  15  16  MR.  MACAU  17  18  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  THE  TRANS  34  MR.  GRANT  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  THE  COURT  :  Yes.  I believe, and I will -- my associate is going  to get the explanatory notes for my friends, but I  believe that this was copied.  Originally, My Lord,  there was a coloured-coded version, of course, which  was photocopied and then it comes out as black, and  that's where the heavy lines were -- are in, and then  it seems that some of the others -- were not coloured  in on subsequent copies.  :  What does the heavy line mean?  :  I don't think there's any significance to the heavy  line is what I'm saying, but I will verify that.  I  have seen a copy of this that had colouring -- the  heavy lines actually were different colours, but I  don't -- that was -- that process was stopped because  it was impossible to photocopy it.  LAY: It would be a lot easier to follow this Exhibit 17  if the lines as they disappear off the right-hand side  of the page bore a label such as the one with -- we're  beginning with now on page 1.  I assume that should  have a note "see page 9", that's the top horizontal  line on page 1, then we'll be able to connect.  :  I don't know if that's so or not, is it, Mr. Grant?  :  Well, I think -- I'm about to have the witness  explain what is germane, and I think that this is of a  assistance.  I mean the lines go all the way through  and I don't think the genealogist can tell what page  it's going to end up at until she's completed the  genealogy.  Sometimes a page is inserted or whatever.  In any event, going to page 9, you have referred to  your great-great-grandmother and that person had the  name Anhalagyax.  Which number is that?  LATOR: Five.  Five on the names of Gyolugyet.  Now, is that person also known as -- was that the  person known as Lucy Huulitz?  Yes.  Okay.  And she's the one who died in 1921?  Yes.  And she was your grandmother's mother's sister; is  that right?  Yes.  Okay.  And she had another sister whose chief name was  Gaspaseeks?  Gaspaseeks.  :  G-a-s-p-a-s-e-e-k-s? 649  1 THE WITNESS:   Another of the sister is married too in Kitwanga.  2 THE TRANSLATOR: Thirty-six.  3 MR. GRANT:  4 Q Thirty-six, My Lord.  5 And Anhalagyax's mother, was she the wife or was  6 she referred to as Noxs Yal, N-o-x-s Y-a-1?  7 A Yes, that's what they call her, Noxs Yal, that means  8 the mother of Yal, the chief.  That's how the people  9 in the ancient time are.  10 Q Now, do you know how old your great-great-grandmother  11 was, approximately, when she died?  12 A I think -- I believe she's way over a hundred and  13 her -- her teeth are the same.  It's just like false  14 teeth. Someone should have taken a picture.  And she's  15 really still heavy. Some of the elders when they are  16 old they shrink, but grandmother never shrink, she's  17 still heavy when she died of flu.  18 Q And she died of the flu?  19 A Yes.  20 Q That was around a time when a lot of people were dying  21 of the flu?  22 A Yeah, a lot of -- a lot of people died in Kispiox.  23 Q Going back to the first page of the genealogy if you  24 could, your -- you had one brother Stanley?  25 A Yes.  2 6 Q And you have -- who's married to Alice?  27 A Yes.  2 8 Q Who holds the name Hawaaw?  29 A Yes.  30 Q Just a moment, please, 30 on the first list.  31 And another man Stewart Forsythe was adopted as  32 your brother; is that right?  33 A Yes.  34 Q You have adopted Colette Johnson?  35 A Yes.  36 Q Brenda Angus who's now Brenda Stewart?  37 A Yes.  38 Q Joanne Creedman who married Art Wilson?  39 A Yes.  4 0 Q And you have great -- you have grandchildren who are  41 the children of Brenda?  42 A Yes.  43 Q And that would be Ambrose, Barney and Cheryl?  44 A Yes.  45 Q And you have great-grandchildren through Cheryl?  46 A Yes.  47 Q And that would be Cheryl Stevens? 650  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And Brandon?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And Cheryl was adopted into another House?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And that was Gitludahl's House?  7 A   Gitludahl.  Yes.  8 Q   The slash line, My Lord, I just wanted to verify that,  9 but that is where there has been an adoption into  10 another House.  11 And you have grandchildren through Joanne who are  12 Jodie, Josh, Timmy and Todd?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And Jodie, one of your grandchildren, has an Indian  15 name?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And that name is Wisenxbi'iltxw?  18 A  Wisenxbi'iltxw.  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 23.  2 0 MR. GRANT:  21 Q   Number 23, My Lord.  22 A   Yes, that's another of the wing name.  23 Q   And Barney, Brenda's son, has a name in your House?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And that's Ganaaw'm xsihlxw?  26 A   Hiis wilduugitxw, that's Barney.  27 THE TRANSLATOR: Number 20.  2 8 MR. GRANT:  29 Q   Number 20 on the list of names, My Lord.  30 A  And there's a song that comes along with the name too.  31 The name means pretending to be a warrior.  32 Q   And Ambrose, Brenda's other son, also had another  33 name?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And that name is?  36 A   Jahlasxw.  37 MR. GRANT:  Okay, that's number?  38 THE TRANSLATOR: Nineteen.  3 9 MR. GRANT:  40 Q   Nineteen on the list.  41 A  And there's a song that comes along with it.  The song  42 Limx sim halayts Jahlasxw, that's when Jahlasxw dances  43 to return the feathers in honour of the other chiefs.  44 THE COURT:  We don't have a spelling for that.  4 5 MR. GRANT:  46 Q   The Jahlasxw was number 19, that's when Jahlasxw  47 dances, that's the name? 651  1 A   Yes.  2 MR. GRANT:   And the song, there was a song called him Limx sim  3 halayts.  4 THE TRANSLATOR: Sim halayt?  5 THE WITNESS:   Limx sim halayts.  6 MR. GRANT:  7 Q   Can you spell that?  8 A   Yes, that's when the chief returns the feathers.  9 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  10 THE TRANSLATOR:   L-i-m-x s-i-m h-a-1-a-y-t, and then Jahlasxw  11 was number 19.  12 THE COURT:  Thank you.  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q   And your mother had a sister Laura Gawa?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Who had a daughter Harriet Gawa?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And going over to page two, My Lord, another daughter  19 Edna?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Maggie and Laura Gawa?  22 A   Yes, those are Harriet's daughter, my cousin Harriet.  23 Q   Right.  And let me ask you this at this point, you  24 spoke with Heather Harris about all of the  25 relationships in your House going back to the time of  26 your great-great-grandmother?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And you spoke to her about your children and your  29 grandchildren?  30 A   Yeah.  Yeah, and grandchildren.  I told her to -- to  31 get all their names because -- because they live in --  32 some live in Hazelton, some live in Southtown, some  33 in -- in Vancouver.  34 Q   And did you go over this genealogy chart with Heather  35 Harris?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And it was an accurate -- it was correct when you went  38 over it with her --  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   -- depiction of your family members?  41 A   Yeah, yeah, they're all belong to the House of both  42 Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix.  43 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant, I think we'll just take a five minute  44 adjournment just to change reporters, no longer than  45 that, please.  46 THE REGISTRAR Order in court.  This court stands adjourned for  47 five minutes. 652  THE  THE  MR.  THE  9  10  11  12  13  14 MR.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22 THE  2 3 MR.  24  25  26  27 THE  2 8 MR.  2 9 THE  30  31 MR.  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44 THE  4 5 MR.  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR SHORT RECESS)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  REGISTAR: Order in court.  COURT:  Madam Reporter's enjoying herself so much she  doesn't want to leave.  Mr. Grant?  GRANT:  Yes.  COURT:  Mr. Grant, you'll forgive me if I say -- and I say  this without any criticism whatsoever, is it necessary  to have the witness go through and confirm what's in  the genealogy?  One question it seems to me would be  sufficient.  GRANT:  I wanted to go -- there were certain points I wanted  to go back to because timing is of importance, but as  you may have anticipated by my last questions, those  last questions of her, having reviewed it I don't see  it as necessary, unless my friends raise it as a major  issue on cross-examination, for me to go through each  of the names and I don't anticipate -- and I don't  intend to do that.  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  This is quite an extensive genealogy and I don't  anticipate going through the genealogies in that way  with the other witnesses, although they will have  reviewed them.  COURT:  Okay.  GRANT:  There is —  COURT:  I don't suggest that you shouldn't ask specific  questions or anything that you think is of importance.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  Q  No.  Now, one of the persons that is at the end of a  dotted line on the first page is Stewart Forsythe.  Now, he was adopted into your House?  Yes.  Can you tell the court why he was adopted into your  House?  Yes.  It happens to be his real friend is my cousin  late Moses Wilson, and when -- he's been his friend  for many years, and when Moses died his heart is  really broken and he come up and see me, Johnny Wilson  from Hazelton.  His chief name is Skiik'm lax ha.  He's the one that --  Just a moment, please.  Just a moment,  That is number -- on the list of chiefs,  59, My Lord.  Go ahead?  please.  that's number 8 MR. GRANT  9 THE COURT  10 MR. GRANT  653  1 A   Yes.  Johnny's name is -- chief name is Skiik'm lax  2 ha, and Johnny is Moses' half-brother, what we call in  3 our Indian way wag'm lixs gyat.  4 Q   Just a moment.  5 A   That means different brother.  6 Q   The reporter has to get the word down.  7 A   Yes.  Go ahead?  Have we got the number?  This is -- that is -- is that on your list?  11 THE TRANSLATOR: No.  wag'm lixs gyat w-a-g-'-m, 1-i-x-s,  12 g-y-a-t.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you.  14 MR. GRANT:  15 Q   Proceed, Mrs. Johnson?  16 A  And that's why Johnny introduce Stewart Forsythe to  17 me.  This was before the funeral and he -- he brought  18 some meat. As you folks know how expensive meat is at  19 the store, and the meat he brought cost -- worth $90,  20 and we distributed to the family to make some soup for  21 the Feast after the funeral.  And he also put in $50  22 in the pot for the funeral expenses, and I -- I really  23 appreciate what he had done because he did exactly the  24 same thing the Indians did in the ancient time.  In  25 the ancient time just the family crest are holding the  26 feast and if any other different Fireweed would come  27 in with a -- with a pack of -- of merchandise or some  28 fish or meat, and they call this one pack K'i'yhl daa  2 9 luxw.  30 MR. GRANT:  Is that word on the list?  31 THE TRANSLATOR: K'i'yhl daa luxw, K-'-i-'-y-h-1 d-a-1-u-x-w?  32 THE WITNESS:   And they would announce it in the Feast House  33 that so and so brought in one daa luxw, so a name will  34 be given to the person that did it and that's why I  35 gave the name to Stewart Forsythe in appreciation for  36 what he had done.  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q   And when did that happen?  39 A   I think it's in '83 when Moses died.  40 MR. GRANT:   Now, you also adopted —  41 THE COURT:  Oh, excuse me, was Stewart Forsythe not adopted by  42 your mother and father or was he adopted by you?  43 THE WITNESS:   By me, and not just me, it's by the family crest  44 because they're all stood together in the Feast House  45 and they -- they shook hands with Stewart Forsythe to  46 welcome him into the crest and they call him brother  47 and sister or uncles. 654  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  14 THE  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  2 5 MR.  2 6 THE  MR.  THE  COURT:  The genealogy's wrong in that regard is it, Mr.  Grant?  GRANT:  Q   Well, I think she's endeavouring to explain it.  Let  me ask you this question:  Would Colette, the girl  that you adopted, and Brenda, would they refer to  Stewart as their brother or as their uncle?  A   Yeah, Brenda would -- they would -- both would call  him their brother.  Q   Okay.  Yes?  A  And also Martha Joseph and Leonard Gawa will call him  their brother.  That should be on the lower line --  Yes.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  of that too.  Now, you adopted Brenda and Colette?  27  28  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31  32  33  34 MR.  35 THE  36  37 MR.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   Yes.  Q   Can you explain to the court why you've adopted them  into your House?  A   Brenda was 18 months old when I -- when I took her and  while she's still a baby I gave her the name of my  great-great-grandmother.  The child name is Aluu git  toox.  GRANT:  Can you refer to the number, Madam Interpreter?  COURT:  Is it not K-w-o-o-d-a-a-s-t?  GRANT:  No, she was later given the name Kwoodaast.  COURT:  All right.  WITNESS:   Yes.  GRANT:  Q   Which is number 11 on the list.  Can you just say what  the first name was again?  A  Aluu git toox.  GRANT:  Can you provide that, Madam Interpreter?  TRANSLATOR: Aluu git toox, A-l-u-u, g-i-t-, t-o-o-x,  underlined.  GRANT:  Q   And that was the child's name of your  great-great-grandmother?  A   Yes, and the name means it stands by itself and that's  the name of the mountain that we would -- we would  talk it over later on.  Q   Right.  Is -- did you adopt Brenda through the Feast  in the Gitksan way?  A   Yeah, in the Gitksan way, yeah, that's when she got  that name.  Q   Okay.  What about Colette? 655  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  2 0 THE  21  22 MR.  23  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 MR.  3 0 MR.  31 MR.  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  3 9 MR.  40  41  42  A  Q  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  The same thing.  You adopted her through the Feast?  Yes, I asked permission to his grandfather first.  grandfather comes from the House of Niist.  N-i-i-s-t.  Whose grandfather?  His  That's Colette's grandfather?  Yes, Wallace Johnson, my husband.  Because Colette's  mother is her -- her uncle is -- his uncle -- her  uncle is Wallace Johnson, so that's why he is  Colette's grandfather.  And I took --  Q   Just a moment here.  Colette's uncle was Wallace  Johnson?  A   No.  Colette's mother's uncle.  Q   Was Wallace Johnson?  A   Yes.  COURT:  She said her grandfather -- Colette's grandfather  was Wallace Johnson.  WITNESS:   Yes, that's why he is Colette's grandfather.  Yes.  GRANT:  Q  A  GRANT:  THE  43 THE  44 THE  4 5 MR.  46  47  Okay.  And he, Colette's grandfather, agreed that you  could adopt Colette?  Yeah, I ask him and he give me permission to adopt  Colette when she was four months old.  And we adopt  her into the family crest and I gave her the child  name of my mother Giis t'aatxws.  Is that on your list, Madam Interpreter?  GOLDIE: Is that the name on the chart?  GRANT:  Q   Yes, I think the spelling is improper on the chart.  It's number 40 on the list.  Apparently it is the same  spelling.  And you raised both Colette and Brenda?  Yeah, and Colette got another name from Gitludahl,  late Moses Morrison.  He gave Colette his mother's  chief name Gidix os.  Okay.  Gitludahl is number 11 on the first list of  the plaintiffs, and Madam Interpreter, could you spell  that last name?  TRANSLATOR: Gidix os?  WITNESS: Gidix os.  TRANSLATOR:   G-i-d-i-x o-s.  GRANT:  Q   Now, you also adopted Joanne, Art Wilson's wife?  A   Yes.  A  GRANT: 656  1 Q   Can you explain to the court why you brought --  2 adopted Joanne?  3 A   Yeah, the reason is he be married to Art Wilson, my  4 brother's son and --  5 THE COURT:  Art Wilson is your —  6 MR. GRANT:  Brother's son.  7 THE COURT:  — your brother's son?  8 THE WITNESS:   Yeah, from the Wolf tribe.  9 MR. GRANT:  10 Q   And he holds the name Wii'mogulsxw?  11 A  Wii'mogulsxw.  12 Q   Number 17 on the page one of that list provided today,  13 My Lord.  14 A   Yes.  And we gave her the name Sagayt ga ak, that's a  15 very ancient name.  16 Q   Now, why -- that's number 42 on your list, page 4.  17 Why did you adopt -- you say that she was married  18 to your brother's son?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Can you explain to the court in more detail why you  21 would adopt -- she's not an Indian; is that right?  22 A   No.  23 Q   Okay.  24 A   But she's an Indian after she married to an Indian.  25 Q   After -- and after she was adopted, is she a Gitksan  2 6 now?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Why did you, her husband's aunt, adopt her?  29 A   Because we made her a Fireweed into our crest and we  30 gave her the name and she's fit to sit on our table in  31 the Feast.  32 Q   Do you consider her children as members of your House  33 now?  34 A   Yeah.  Yeah.  And her elder son got the name that you  35 mentioned a while ago.  It was Niis kyo'om galo'ost,  36 that's a great name too.  37 Q   Number 23(sic) on the list under Mary's House names.  38 Now, you've referred to Edith Gawa as your  39 grandmother?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Is there any other women that you would refer to in  42 Gitksan you would refer to as your grandmother?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Who are they?  45 A   Lucy Tait, that's my grandmother's cousin, but in our  46 Indian way they would call they cousins sisters and  47 brothers. 657  1 Q   It's on page 6 of the genealogy, My Lord.  2 And she was the mother of Fred White?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Who held Tsibasaa?  5 A   Yeah.  6 Q   Is there anyone else that you would refer to as your  7 grandmother?  8 A  An elderly lady that -- she's my  9 great-great-grandmother, another  10 great-great-grandmother --  11 Q   Yes?  12 A   -- from Kitwanga.  She married a chief in Kitwanga.  13 Q   And —  14 A   He's -- her husband's name is Luulak, Chief Luulak,  15 from the House of Lax See'l.  16 MR. GRANT:   What number?  17 THE TRANSLATOR: Forty-one.  18 MR. GRANT:  19 Q   Forty-one on the list of plaintiffs.  2 0 And do you recall her name?  21 A   Her name -- her chief name is Guu jantixswm simoogit.  22 MR. GRANT:  Is that on your list?  23 THE TRANSLATOR: No.  Guu jantixswm simoogit, G-u-u,  24 j-a-n-t-i-x-s-w-m, s-i-m-o-o-g-i-t.  2 5 MR. GRANT:  26 Q   Do you recall a man whose English name was Alexander  27 Mowatt and he held the chief name Gyetm galdoo, which  28 is number 23 on the list of plaintiffs' names.  Do you  2 9 remember that man, Alexander Mowatt?  30 A   From which tribe?  31 Q   His chief name was Gyetm galdoo from the Frog tribe?  32 A   No.  33 Q   Let me ask you this question.  Do you remember a  34 relative of yours who was married to him whose chief  35 name -- it's number 22 on the list of Mary' House  36 names, was Ax dii wil gaa'wsxw?  37 A  Ax dii wil gaa'wsxw?  38 Q   Yes.  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Now, how would you refer to her?  41 A   She is my grandmother, that's her chief name is Ax dii  42 wil gaa'wsxw's House.  She is my grandmother's  43 cousin's sister.  44 Q   And do you remember a sister of hers who was married  45 to Amagyet and whose name was -- this is number 24 on  46 the list, My Lord, Niist —  47 A   Niis kyo'om galo'ost. 65E  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  15  16  MR.  GRANT  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  THE  COURT  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  33  THE  TRANS  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  TRANS  36  MR.  GRANT  37  THE  TRANS  38  THE  COURT  39  THE  TRANS  40  THE  COURT  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  Thank you.  Do you remember her?  Yes, I've seen her.  That's another grandmother too.  And these were cousins of your mother?  Yes.  But they would refer to each other as sisters?  Yeah, yeah, and they were cousins to my grandmother.  What was the number of that?  Oh, I'm sorry, My Lord I said number 24 at the  beginning before I tried to pronounce the names. It's  24 on the list of Mary's House names, that's that Niis  kyo'om galo'ost.  If that's what it is, I took it differently, I took  it you asked two questions, and she was married to  somebody and I thought the name to whom she was  married was one for which we didn't get the spelling.  I'm sorry, My Lord, that A-m-a-g-y-a-t.  I'm sorry?  A-m-a-g-y-a-t?  I'm referring to page 7 of the genealogy.  Thank you.  Now, do you have -- you've referred to your Uncle  George Williams.  Do you -- are there any other  persons that you would refer to as your uncle in your  family?  Donald Mowatt and all his brothers.  They are my --  our uncles, and about -- about the mother is -- her  husband's chief name is 'A dii aam and he comes from  the House of Gyetm galdoo.  Just a moment.  This is Donald Mowatt's mother?  Yes.  :   Okay.  That's on page 7 and that's number 22 on the  list; is that right Madam Interpreter, of the names on  page 3?  LATOR: No.  'A dii aam.  :  Yes.  Can you refer to it on the list?  LATOR: It's not on there.  :  Well, can you give the spelling, I'm sorry?  LATOR: A-x, underlined, d-i-i a-m.(sic)  :  And what is that name again, please?  LATOR: 'A dii aam.  :  Yes, but -- thank you, Madam Interpreter, but who is  this person 'A dii aam?  Yes.  Can you refer to who 'A dii aam is?  That's one of my grandmother's husband.  He comes from  the House of Gyetm galdoo.  And what was his wife's name?  'Ax dii wil gaa'wsxw? 659  1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  COURT  35  36  MR.  GOLDI  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Okay.  That is number 22 on the list, My Lord, and I  refer you to page 7 of the genealogy for reference and  these two people were the parents of Donald Mowatt,  your uncle?  Yes.  And his brothers --  Yes.  -- and sisters.  Now, I'm moving into another area, My Lord, about  the House of Antgulilbix and chiefs.  You already  indicated yesterday that both Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix  are what we referred to as Xsgoogam Simoogit?  Yes.  Why in this court action -- or how did you come to the  conclusion that Antgulilbix should bring this court  case on behalf of the members of your House, rather  than Tsibasaa?  The reason is I -- I know some -- some of the history,  some of the adaawks and Tsibasaa knows about the  hunting ground, and the fishing ground too, and all  the mountains near the village so we -- we both  decided to come to go to the court --  Okay.  -- and reveal our inheritance, that which was taken  away from us.  Okay. And that -- but within your House under Gitksan  law, this court case could have been brought by either  yourself or by Tsibasaa?  By the -- by the House too because there are the  chiefs' wings, all the names that we mentioned before.  :  Mr. Grant, I may not have understood you.  I thought  you suggested that Tsibasaa was a plaintiff?  :  No, I suggested Antgulilbix was a plaintiff.  :  Yes, I see that.  I'm not sure I've grasped the  purpose of your questions then.  E: I think he suggested to the witness that Tsibasaa  could be a plaintiff, if I understood him correctly.  Tsibasaa -- what I'm asking you is, you've explained  that you and Tsibasaa are the same level of chief in  your House?  Yes.  Is that right?  Yes.  And in this court case the person named in the court  document is Antgulilbix?  Yes. 1  MR.  GRANT  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GRANT  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GOLDI  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  GRANT  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  660  Okay.  All right.  I understand now.  Thank you.  Is that right?  Well, if that is right, yes.  Okay.  Did you discuss which name you would put on the  court documents with Tsibasaa, whether you would put  Antgulilbix or Tsibasaa?  I discussed that both should be put in because he's --  he is -- if I can't answer any question, he'll be  willing to answer.  You're saying that he should be able to speak here  like you are?  Yeah, yeah, he stand by now.  Okay.  Can you in the court case, under Gitksan law,  can you represent the people of your House?  Yes.  :   I believe the witness misunderstood my question  about being a witness as opposed to being a plaintiff,  My Lord.  :  Yes, I think so.  EI: Well, I -- my friend -- I haven't objected to these  leading questions, but this matter took up some time  on the examination for discovery and I understood her  answers to be consistent with some of the answers she  gave me on her discovery.  I don't think she mistook  Stanley Wilson to be a witness.  My understanding is  she's saying he could be a plaintiff; that he stood on  the same basis as she does with respect to the House.  You've referred to the wings of the chief and I've  referred you already to Tab 2 of Exhibit 17.  Now, are these -- and you've indicated this is the  right seating?  Yes.  Does this list -- does this seating include those who  are the wings of the chief?  Yes.  Okay.  And some are what we call warn gyat, that's before they  go to be a higher chief.  Okay.  That's somebody who may become a chief in the  future?  Yes.  And some of them are people who are already wings of  the chief?  Yes.  Yes. 661  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  MR.  GRANT  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  COURT  15  16  17  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  35  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  THE  COURT  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  THE  COURT  46  THE  REGIS  47  Okay.  They'll be selected later on.  Okay.  Can you just hold that a moment?  I'd like  you -- I'd like to just go through that with you and  just to clarify, going down the left-hand side as you  face it, if you can tell me, is Yal a warn simoogit  name?  Yes.  Is Gwin lax nisims a warn simoogit name?  Yes.  Is —  I'm sorry?  I'm sorry, My Lord.  I'm just trying to recall the significance of a warn  simoogit name.  Somewhere I had my own glossary, but  I'm not sure.  I may not have brought it with me.  Are  you using this term interchangeably with head chief, a  warn simoogit?  Not as a head chief, but as a chief's name.  A chief's name, yes.  If a person holds a warn simoogit name, that means they  would be one of the wings of the chief; is that right?  Yes, yes.  And if a person holds a warn gyat name?  Yes.  Does that mean that they would be -- they may become a  warn simoogit in the future?  They were simoogits too.  I remember one of an uncle  at Kitwanga on the father's side, the Wolf, late  Joseph Williams, that's my father's cousin, but they  live in different village and we visit him.  :  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, are you asking this witness to  tell us which ones of these persons on this Tab 2 are  wings of the chief?  :  Are warn simoogit or warn gyat, which is her term, as  to explaining what they are because I think otherwise  it will be confusing.  :  All right.  :  I want to ask her about which ones are warn gyat and  warn simoogit.  :  All right.  I think we'll start with that -- can we  come back at 1:30.  :  Yes, My Lord.  All right.  :  All right.  We'll reconvene at 1:30.  rRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned  until 1:30. 662  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings transcribed to the best  of my skill and ability.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  -h2  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVEND AT 1:30 p.m.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  REGISTRAR:  still  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  Mr.  Order in court,  under oath.  Grant.  Witness, I remind you you are  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  of the  Yes, My Lord.  I was referring to tab 2 of Exhibit 17,  and the exhibit is in front of the witness.  I'll just  refer you to this which you've already identified as  the seating of your House.  Now when we refer to the  wings of the chief, are these people who would be --  one could say like the counsellors or advisers to the  head chiefs?  Yeah, both counsellors and advisers.  Now, looking at tab 2 of Exhibit 17, is Yal one  wings?  Yeah.  And Gwin lax nisims?  And Ax goodim gitgwooyim.  Is it going to make sense giving the English  I'll just refer to the English names for the  reporter.  And that's the third name down, it's  Joseph and Rosaline --  Is she a chief or isn't she?  names?  court  Martha  She is a wing?  Yeah.  And Rosaline Starr  Yeah.  And David Harris?  Yeah.  Now the other ones  not considered  that right?  is a wing of the chief?  down there on that side,  they are not wings of the  the  chi  y are  ef; is 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  663  No.  They got what we call warn gyat.  Warn gyat?  Yes.  W-A-M, one word  G-Y-E-T, the second word.  And going  on the other side, is Brenda Stewart a wing of the  chief?  Yeah.  And Cheryl Stevens?  That's warn gyat too.  Okay.  So she is not a wing of the chief?  No.  And Ambrose Stewart junior?  Yeah.  Barnet Stewart?  Yeah.  Arnold Tait?  Yeah, he is the wing.  He is a wing, okay.  I'm sorry, maybe you misunderstood me; is Ambrose Stewart a wing or is he a warn  gyat?  He is a wing and Barnet Stewart too.  Okay.  And Arnold Tait is?  Yeah.  And Alice Kruta --  Yeah.  -- is she a wing?  Yes.  And going down the balance of that side, the others on  that side are not wings of the chief; is that right?  No.  They are -- they are what you called warn gyat?  Warn gyat.  And of course if you were discussing matters of  importance in your House, you would discuss them with  Stanley Wilson, Tsibasaa?  Yeah.  And you would also discuss them with these  counsellors?  Yes.  I would like to move into another area now, My Lord.  I would like to move into the area of the content of  the adaawk, and I'll introduce it by saying that this  witness will be referring to adaawk of a different --  histories of the -- histories relating to her  background in and the background of her House than you  heard from the former witness.  Do you know of a place called T'am Lax amit? 664  1 A   Yes.  2 MR. GRANT:  And that's on our list, Madame Reporter.  3 THE INTERPRETER:  Fourteen.  4 MR. GRANT:  Fourteen on page 1 of the list.  Now, where -- it was a village, is that right, or a  community?  Yeah.  It's a village and I was told that it was on  both sides of the Skeena River.  It was so big until  it gets to Hazelton where the junction of the Bulkley  and Skeena River is.  Okay. And it went -- it was downstream from the  Bui -- junction of the Bulkley and Skeena River?  Yeah.  And how far downstream would it -- did it stretch?  It almost get to Kispiox, too.  Okay.  That's upstream?  Yeah.  How far downstream from the junction of the Bulkley  and Skeena did it go?  It's -- there is a great big flat across Bulkley where  the old bridge used to be.  Yes?  That's where it is.  Okay.  Do you know where Carnaby is on the Skeena  River?  Yeah.  That's part of the -- they call it a city it's  so big.  2 9 THE COURT:  I'm completely confused Mr. Grant.  3 0 MR. GRANT:  31 Q   T'am Lax amit is what you are describing, it was very  32 large?  Yes.  And it stretched on the upstream end almost to  Kispiox, and it stretched downstream far below the  Bulkley and Skeena junction?  Yeah.  Did it -- and it stretched as far as Carnaby?  Yeah.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, may I take it that this is all part of the  41 adaawk?  42 THE COURT:  I took that to be so.  4 3 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  The purpose of my question, of course, I think is  45 obvious.  This is hearsay and will have to be dealt  4 6           with at some time.  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A 665  1  MR.  GRANT  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  A  34  THE  COURT  35  A  36  37  THE  COURT  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  MR.  GRANT  46  Q  47  And the history of T'am Lax amit, T'am Lax amit  happened long before you were born; is that right?  Maybe -- I was told it was happened what they call la  oo'y.  Grandmother, great-great-grandmother used to  pronounce it whenever she talks about things.  Okay.  Can you --  Ahla oo'y, that means thousands and thousands of years  ago.  That's the reason why they also call the dirge  song Limx oo'y.  See how the word is the same.  That  song, those songs are composed thousands and thousands  of years, and passed onto many generations.  That word for Limx oo'y is 27 on the list provided  today, the word for the songs  Now, were you told about T'am Lax amit by your  great-great-grandmother?  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, were the people who are now in the  House of Tsibasaa and the House of Antgulilbix or the  House of Antgulilbix, were those people at T'am Lax  amit their ancestors?  Yeah.  That's why they are called lax aamit, the  Giskaast.  It's --  That's number four on the list, My Lord.  Now, there was an event occurred in T'am Lax amit  with respect to a grizzly bear or a Mediik; is that  right?  Yeah, both Mediik  That Mediik is M-E-D-I-I-K.  Does Mediik mean grizzly bear?  Mediik means grizzly bear; is that right?  Yeah.  :  Thank you.  It's just like an ordinary bear, it's what they call  Mediik is the mediigam tsa 'wii aks.  :  You know, I have a sense that this witness feels  impelled to use native language to explain every word.  If that's your wish then of course so be it.  I'm not  sure that she understands that she can put it either  way or both ways.  Seems to me that she seems to be  using the native dialect when she is not really being  asked to, but I'm not sure if that is right.  So you  deal with it as you think best.  Mrs. Johnson.  If you need to explain some phrase or  some word in Gitksan, if that's how you have to 666  1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31 THE  COURT  32 MR.  GRANT  33  34 THE  COURT  35 MR.  GRANT  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  explain it, then -- then stop after you say that so  that the interpreter can translate it, or the word  person can write it down.  If you can explain it in  English, that's all right.  But if you need to use the  Gitksan word, just give time, okay?  Yeah.  Okay?  Yes.  Okay.  You were describing what a Mediik was?  Yeah.  And you said it's more than just a grizzly bear, I  believe?  Yes.  Can you -- and then you used a Gitksan phrase.  What  do you mean?  They call those kind of bears Mediigam tsa wii aks  which -- because they live in the water and they look  like bears, exactly like bears, and they didn't have  long furs like the bears, they were smooth and thin.  Okay.  Now, could you tell the court the history of  the Mediik at T'am Lax amit?  Yeah.  Would you tell them what -- tell the judge what  happened?  After all the fishing is finished and all the hunting  for -- for mountain goats and groundhogs and the  mountain and all the berry picking is finished, then  they got nothing to do, so the maidens would go and  make the camp at the lake, at the foot of Stekyooden,  and they caught some grouse.  :  At the foot of which?  :  Stekyooden, number 29 on the list, My Lord, the list  provided today.  :  Yes.  And I don't know if -- I was watching the reporter but  the word she said was "maidens".  I don't know if you  caught that, it wasn't a Gitksan.  You were saying the foot of Stekyooden?  They -- as they were caught -- after they were caught  many trouts, they cut out the back bone of the skin,  and tails are still on the back bone.  And as they was  staying there, they learned the dances of the people  and all the songs, and the way they were -- they move  when they were dancing.  So one time, one young lady  cut one of these back bone and put it on her head as a  decoration while dancing.  And she would happen to be 667  1 near the -- near the lake, and she look at herself at  2 the edge of the lake, and she saw it was the bone  3 looks really, really beautiful and why she dances  4 gracefully.  So she ran and told the others what she  5 have found, and show them.  Then they all got back  6 bones and decorated their heads with it and some of  7 the people used to come over and watch them and they  8 didn't put a stop to it, and they smiled at what's  9 going on.  So after they all went home when it's time  10 to go home, the people of T'am Lax amit heard a  11 terrible noise, and they --  12 Q   Can I stop you a moment.  You said they went home?  13 A   Yeah.  14 Q   Is that -- they returned from the lake to T'am Lax  15 amit?  16 A   Yeah.  They left the lake and the people watched where  17 the noise comes from, and they've seen some great big  18 trees were throwing about the top of the rest of the  19 tall trees, and they just stood there wondering what  20 happened, until it comes -- there is a little stream  21 that runs from the lake and goes into the Skeena  22 River, and that's -- and this thing followed the  23 little stream, tramping down the trees.  And finally  24 they see this great huge bear, grizzly bear that they  25 have never seen before.  And the chiefs sent  26 messengers through the village to -- after warriors,  27 to have the warriors ready, which they did.  And not  28 long after the messenger went out, all the warriors  29 came out with their spears and arrows and bow and  30 arrow, and hammers that are made with stone, all those  31 from weapons that strong young men use, they all come  32 out bravely to meet this great grizzly bear.  And he  33 gets to the water and swam across and -- and they went  34 in front, they all went in front of him, but he is --  35 he is a supernatural grizzly bear, they call him  36 Mediik, and whenever they are shot him with an arrow,  37 the arrow flys way up high instead and fall back down  38 again and it hit the warriors, and they were wounded.  39 And this grizzly bear tramped them until they were  40 crushed to the ground, and goes through the village  41 and kills a lot of people.  And after that he -- he  42 came -- he turned and go into the water again, follow  43 the stream where he came from the first place.  So the  44 brave warriors went to -- to see where he went, and it  45 goes into the lake, disappeared into the lake.  That's  46 why the wise elders told the young people not to play  47 around with fish or meat or anything, because the -- 668  1 because the Sun God gave them food to eat and those  2 who -- just they should just take enough to eat and  3 not to play with it, that's why this tragedy happens  4 to them.  5 Q   Did any of the people go back up the trail that this  6 grizzly bear followed down the mountain afterwards?  7 A   Yeah.  They went -- they went to follow the trail and  8 that's when they see that he disappeared, his track  9 disappeared into the lake.  So they believed that it's  10 the revenge of those trouts, because they played  11 around with their bones.  12 Q   And is that lake -- do you know what that lake is  13 known to the non-Indian today, the name of that lake?  14 A   They call it see Seeley Lake.  15 THE COURT:  S-E-E-L-E-Y?  16 MR. GRANT:  17 Q   S-E-E-L-E-Y.  18 I would like to ask you now about another adaawk.  19 Could you tell the court the history of what happened  20 when your ancestors left T'am Lax amit and why they  21 left?  22 A   The reason is they caught some fresh spring salmon  23 during the month of April, and they called the month  2 4 of April Lasa ya'a.  25 THE INTERPRETER:  L-A-S-A-Y-A-'-A.  2 6 MR. GRANT:  27 Q   Yes.  28 A   Yeah.  And that's when they started to cook the spring  29 salmon, and they roast the spring salmon and they cut  30 it in half because they were so big, and they sharpen  31 some sticks so -- to stuck through the spring salmon  32 so it won't fell down while they roast it near the  33 fire.  And when it was cooked, they pull out these  34 sticks and they call these small little sticks  35 Xhlaaxws.  36 THE INTERPRETER:  X-underlined-H-L-A-A-X-W-S.  37 A  And they gave one little stick, one of these stick to  38 a small little boy, and the little boy went out  39 enjoying his fish, eating it off from this little  40 stick.  And he looked up to the mountain of  41 Stekyooden, and he sees a cloud covers the top of the  42 mountain with little bit of snow, and he talks to the  43 mountain, "What you going to do with this?" waving the  44 little stick, "You was snowing again."  And that same  45 night they was snowed in, the houses were all covered  4 6 with snow and they can't go out.  And they were out of  47 wood and they were cold, the chief sat down and 669  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  THE  TRANS  17  18  THE  COURT  19  THE  TRANS  20  THE  COURT  21  THE  TRANS  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  A  25  THE  TRANS  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  COURT  covered himself with warm blanket, and finally he sees  a little bird where the smoke hole is, a little bird  sat on the smoke hole with a leaf in the mouth of the  little bird and ripen berries.  And the chief said,  "Am I seeing things," he said.  And they looked and it  was really.  So the wise people asked the young men to  dig through the snow.  They know it's just them that  was snowed in, and there was -- they believe they know  it's summer at the rest of the land.  So as they all  come out, it's -- each group understand it's each  other, they say it used to be one language at T'am Lax  amit before they used tsimxsan language.  They call  this tsimxsan language sim algyax.  What we use today,  they call it gyanimx.  :  Just a moment.  LATOR:  Tsimxsan is T-S-I-M-X-S-A-N, sim algyax, S-I-M  A-L-G-Y-A-X-underlined.  :  Sorry, S-I-M-A-W?  LATOR:  A-L-G-Y-A-X-underlined.  :  S-I-M —  LATOR:  A-L-G-Y-A-X-underlined.  Go ahead?  And the land which we used to is -- they call gyanimx.  LATOR:  Gyanimx, G-Y-A-N-I-M-X-underlined.  :  Thank you.  Okay?  And so -- so as they all make it out of the snow,  then -- then their land which was changed, they got  different land.  So each group that understood each  other, they -- they follow the rest, and they went in  different directions.  So you see today that Hagwilget  is close to our village, and yet we didn't understand  their language.  :  I don't know that we got that word.  Hagwilget, H-A-G-W-I-L-G-E-T.  That's one of the  villages.  If I may just interject, where did the people who  are now in Antgulilbix House go?  They go to Kitsegukla, and there was a famine after  this happen to them, and so the two sisters travelled  and their one brother.  The name of the sister is  Sagayt ga ak.  :  Number 42 on page 4 of your list.  :  Thank you. 670  1  A  2  THE  TRANS  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  THE  TRANS  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  Q  27  28  A  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  39  40  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  THE  COURT  47  And the name of the other one is Naga ihl.  LATOR:  Number 38.  Thirty-eight.  And only brother's name is Wildim waax.  I don't believe it's on the list.  LATOR:  No.  It's Wildim waax, W-I-L-D-I-M, W-A-A-X.  And as they were travelling, Wildim waax starved to  death because they got nothing to eat, can't find  anything to eat.  And not long after he died, they  heard the drumming grouse, and they plan to kill the  grouse.  The elder sister lay down near the log where  the grouse drums.  Whenever a grouse is drumming, he  come -- always comes back to the same spot where he  drums on an old log covered with moss, and it's soft.  And so the elder sister hid herself underneath the  moss beside the log, but she missed the grouse and she  just caught few of the tail ends.  And then the young,  young sister lay down to try to -- if you scare the  grouse while he drums, he'll always come back to the  same spot.  So the younger sister caught the grouse,  and they killed the grouse, so they sat down and they  both cried.  They remember their brother that's just  died and they compose a dirge song.  And in the telling of this adaawk, is this the place  where you would sing the dirge song?  Yeah.  :  My Lord, the interpreter will be able to translate  the song.  Go ahead and you can sing the song.  :  Well, is the wording of the song necessary?  :  Yes.  I believe the wording of the song is  necessary, My Lord, it's part of the adaawk, it's part  of the history.  The song itself forms part of the  history.  :  Well, if the wording of the song is essential to --  or even possibly necessary to the determination of the  issues at trial, then by all means.  I don't want to  be skeptical, but I have some difficulty in  understanding why the actual wording of the song is  necessary.  But I have to leave that to counsel.  Go ahead with the song?  Do you want me to sing the song?  Yes, go ahead.  :  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, are you going to ask the  witness to now sing the song? 671  1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  THE  COURT  12  13  14  15  16  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  THE  COURT  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  GRANT  28  29  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  MR.  GOLDI  38  39  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  MR.  GOLDI  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  46  47  MR.  GOLDI  Well the song, My Lord, I asked the witness if the  song was part of the adaawk.  Yes.  The song is part of the history, and I am asking the  witness to sing the song as part of the history,  because I think in the song itself, invokes the  history of the -- of the particular adaawk to which  she is referring.  How long is it?  It's not very long, it's very short.  Could it not be written out and asked if this is the  wording?  Really, we are on the verge of getting way  off track here, Mr. Grant.  Again, I don't want to be  skeptical, but to have witnesses singing songs in  court is in my respectful view not the proper way to  approach this problem.  :  My Lord, Mr. Jackson will make a submission to you  with respect --  :  No, no, that isn't necessary.  If this has to be  done, if you say as counsel this has to be done, I'm  going to listen to it.  I just say, with respect, I've  never heard it happen before, I never thought it  necessary, and I don't think it necessary now.  But  I'll be glad to hear what the witness says if you say  that this is what she has to do.  It doesn't seem to  me she has to sing it.  :  Well, My Lord, with respect, the song is -- is what  one may refer to as a death song.  It's a song which  itself invokes the history and the depth of the  history of what she is telling.  And as counsel, it  is -- it is my submission that it is necessary for you  to appreciate --  :  I have a tin ear, Mr. Grant, so it's not going to do  any good to sing it to me.  :  I have a similar problem, My Lord, but maybe after  it is sung we may view it at that stage.  E: There is one other aspect of this, My Lord, and  that is, is the witness going to interpret her own  song?  :  No.  The interpreter will translate the words of the  song.  E:  Why is that necessary?  :  Well if you wish, the witness will.  But the witness  herself is in the middle of telling of an adaawk, and  the interpreter will be able to translate the words of  that song.  E:  Well, My Lord, this is part of the witness's 672  1 history as I understand it.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  The witness has been dealing very competently as  4 far as I can make out with what her history is, and  5 informing the court of what it is in English.  Why it  6 should be -- why the song should be translated,  7 whether it bears any special consideration is yet to  8 be determined.  And if it is to be translated, then I  9 have a submission to make with respect to the  10 interpreter.  11 THE COURT:  What is it you want to do, Mr. Grant?  12 MR. GRANT:  13 Q  I would ask Mrs. Johnson, if you could go ahead and  14 sing the song, and then if you can translate for the  15 court the words of the song?  16 A   Yeah.  The reason the sad song is when they raise the  17 pole, and when the pole is half-way up they told the  18 chiefs that pull the rope to stop for a few minutes,  19 and they sang the song and they cried.  They remember  20 those that used to raise the pole before them, and all  21 those that were dead before the new pole is raised.  22 So after they sang what they call Limx oo'y. Then they  23 put up the pole.  24 Q   These are the poles that are raised, like a pole that  25 is raised even in your lifetime, they would sing this  26 song?  27 A   Yeah, yeah.  28 Q   Okay.  29 A  Well, if the court wants me to sing it, I'll sing it.  30 THE COURT:  No, I don't, Mrs. Johnson, but apparently counsel  31 does.  And I think I'm in a position where if counsel  32 in the responsible discharge of their duties say this  33 has to be done, then I have to listen to it.  But I  34 don't think, with respect, that this is the way this  35 part of this trial should be conducted, I just don't  36 think it's necessary.  I think it is not the right way  37 to present the case.  38 MR. GRANT:  You can go ahead and sing the song now.  39  40 (WITNESS SINGS SONG)  41  42 MR. GRANT:  43 Q   Can you tell us what the words of the song mean in  44 English?  45 A   They sang about the grouse flying, flying, how the  46 grouse flies, those are the first word.  And another  47 word says "I will -- I will ask for you tell him to 673  1 give it to me."  That means when the first sister  2 grabs just the tail end of the grouse.  And another  3 word says, "It will make noise underneath your wings."  4 That means when you hear the drum, when the grouse  5 drums and it makes a loud noise.  And then another  6 word says of how -- how the grouse gave himself up to  7 die for them to help them save their lives.  So that's  8 the end of the song.  And today, the -- the young lady  9 that caught the grouse stood at the foot of our  10 totem-pole that we restore in 1973, and she is holding  11 the grouse with tears in her eyes.  12 Q   And that pole is in Kispiox?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Today?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Okay.  17 THE COURT:  All right now, Mr. Grant, would you explain to me,  18 because this may happen again, why you think it was  19 necessary to sing the song?  This is a trial, not a  20 performance.  21 MR. GRANT:  I agree, My Lord, but I refer you to the pleadings  22 in the action, and in the statement of claim,  23 paragraph 57(h), which reads -- it's the more  24 delineated paragraph after paragraph 56 which says,  25 "That the plaintiffs have owned and exercised  26 jurisdiction over the lands ascribed in Schedule A and  27 set out on the map on Schedule B."  57:  "Without  28 restricting the generality of paragraph 56, since time  29 and memorial the plaintiffs and their ancestors have  30 (h) expressed their ownership of the territory through  31 their regalia, their adaawk, their kungax and their  32 songs."  It's specifically pled in the statement of  33 claim that the songs of the people are part of their  34 history and that's part of the way the ownership over  35 the territory has been expressed.  36 THE COURT:  I don't find that a persuasive argument at all, Mr.  37 Grant.  It seems to me the fact of expressing their  38 ownership or their claim to ownership through songs is  39 a fact to be proven in the ordinary way.  It is not  40 necessary, in my view, and in a matter of this kind  41 for that song to have been sung, and I think that I  42 must say now that I -- I think I ought not to have  43 been exposed to it.  I don't think it should happen  44 again.  If it is sought to be -- to have that sort of  45 evidence adduced in future, I will expect further and  46 more detailed submissions, because I think I'm being  47 imposed upon and I don't think that should happen in a 674  1  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  9  10  11  12  MR.  GRANT  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  trial like this.  Well there is no intent by myself as counsel to at  all impose upon you, My Lord.  It's an attempt to have  this witness able to express her adaawk --  I see no reason  -- as she would have expressed --  - having regards to the words of the song as she has  explained them, and having regard to the context of  her evidence and the submissions you made, I see no  reason whatsoever why it was necessary to ask her to  sing that song.  Go on with the evidence, please.  Just before proceeding further, you referred to the  name of the brother, as I believe, Wildim waax?  Yeah.  And was this a name that Leonard Gawa, in your House,  held when he was small?  Yeah.  And you described the pole that has the girl with the  grouse on it?  Yeah.  And is the grouse part of the -- one of the crests of  your House?  Yes, yeah.  Now, can you -- is that the conclusion of this adaawk,  or is there more to this particular adaawk?  Yeah, there is more of the same adaawk.  Okay?  After that they travel again, and they found a great  big tree, and they -- it was a fireweed, a huge  fireweed, and they call this fireweed G'ilhaast.  And —  And that's the name of the poles in the ancient time  is G'ilhaast which is still the name today.  And that refers to a single fireweed?  Yeah.  So it's the singular of Giskaast which is "Many  Fireweed"?  Yeah.  Okay?  So as they travel again, they saw a trail on the side  of the mountain, and they made a snare out of some  roots, and set the snare and they hid themselves away  from the snare.  Not long after that, a goat came  along and they caught him with the snare, and maybe  perhaps the goat thinks he will run away or jump away  from this snare, but instead, he hung down on the side 675  1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  THE  COURT  34  35  36  THE  REGIS1  37  38  39  40  41  THE  REGIS1  42  THE  COURT  43  44  45  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  COURT  of the mountain.  And one of the sisters cried out  "halaltxwista giikw."  That means "Sister, it's  falling down!"  Go ahead?  So they walked over and they -- it was -- they caught  the one-horned goat, the goat with one horn.  So  they -- again they got this goat as their crest and  the one -- that's what Uncle George Williams raised in  1916, and it's on the top of a pole today.  Did -- when you described this history of these two  sisters and the brother, this was after they left T'am  Lax amit?  Yeah.  Was it when they were at Kitsegukla?  Yes.  Is there a House in Kitsegukla or Kitwanga which -- to  which your Antgulilbix was once related at this time?  Yes.  The house in Kitsegukla is the house of Hax  bagwootxw.  :  Sorry, that word again?  :  Number 34 on the list of plaintiffs and chiefs, My  Lord.  :  Yes.  And what is that the name of?  That is the house which you were related to?  Yes.  Is this adaawk that you have just told of the two  sisters and the brother --  Yes.  -- also an adaawk of the house of Hax bagootxw?  Yeah.  Now --  :  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, we're going to take just a  very brief adjournment.  We are half-way through the  first two hours, we'll take about a ten minute break.  ?RAR:  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 2:25 p.m.)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:35 p.m.)  ?RAR:  Order in court.  :  I can tell counsel that I've had a brief discussion  with the reporters and I plan to sit now until 25  after three and then we'll take another very short  adjournment and carry on to 4:30.  :  Yes, I understood that from the reporter as well.  :  All right, thank you. 676  1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  THE  COURT  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  MR.  GRANT  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  :  I just ask, I would like to observe how the witness  is going around four o'clock, that's all.  :  Yes, we'll have to consider that as well.  Mrs. Johnson, you were -- you described about the two  girls and the brother.  Now, did this event happen --  I may have asked you this already because I noted it.  But this happened when they were at Kitsegukla?  Yeah.  And do you know where the girls and the brother went,  where did they travel from Kitsegukla?  After they left Kitsegukla?  Yes?  Yeah.  :  Well the brother is dead by now, isn't he?  :  No, no.  I'm going back to the beginning of this  adaawk.  :  Oh, I'm sorry.  One moment then.  The history says that Antgulilbix branched off from  Hax bagwootxw.  It wasn't that they were fighting or  hating each other, that's how the Indians are in the  ancient time, that's why many families live in other  villages.  I think you may have misunderstood my question or you  are jumping ahead, you are anticipating what I'll ask  you in a minute.  I just want to go back to this  particular adaawk.  I understood that -- that when the  two sisters and the brother left Kitsegukla, they left  there because there was a famine there?  Yeah.  And do you know where they travelled to and where  these events with the grouse and the goat occurred?  Yeah.  It's on the Kitsegukla River.  Okay.  Now, I would like to go back to the first part  of this adaawk about leaving T'am Lax amit.  You said  they caught the spring salmon.  Does the history tell  you how the people caught the salmon in those days?  They made fish traps all -- right through the Skeena  River, because there was so many and they started the  fish trap till it gets across, and they caught some  fish.  Okay.  And the fish trap was right across the river?  Yeah.  Now, the history of the snow fall at T'am Lax amit,  has that led to certain laws of the Gitksan regarding  their treatment of the fish? 677  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  MR.  GRANT  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  A  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Yeah.  Could you tell the court what that law is?  Yeah.  It's to -- to take care of the fish if there is  anything that they didn't use of the inside, they  would bury it.  They are not supposed to just throw  them away.  And when -- whenever they caught a first  spring salmon, they lay it on a mat, the mat is very  valuable to them, it's made out of cedar bark and dyed  with their own dye, black dye, that's the trimming.  And whenever a visiting chief or a stranger comes to  the village, they spread this mat out and that's where  the visitor sat on.  Okay.  Now, I would like you -- you started to  describe the people of Antgulilbix split off from Hax  bagwootxw?  Yes.  Now, did this happen in what your grandmother would  refer to as ancient times or was this quite recent?  Ancient times, very ancient times.  Okay.  And that's when Antgulilbix branched off from Hax  bagwootxw, that's why they got the same crests and the  same names.  Do I have the spelling for Hax bagwootxw?  I'm sure  I do.  Yes.  It's 34 on the list of plaintiffs, My Lord.  Thank you.  The present holder of that name is Ken Harris, of the  name Hax bagwootxw?  Yeah.  :  That's on the list titled Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  Plaintiffs.  :  Yes, thank you.  Now, where did the people of Hax bagwootxw travel to  and where did they move to when they left Kitsegukla?  They formed a village at what we call Wilt gallii bax.  Okay.  That's -- I'm referring here to place names for  the Antgulilbix territories and related territories,  it starts the 300 series, and that name is 332.  Sorry for the interjection, if you would continue?  You were saying that place is near, and then?  Yeah.  That's where they form a village.  And where was that?  It's -- a mountain behind Glen Vowell village, and  they call this mountain "Where the moon shines on, " 67E  1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  21  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  Q  45  46  47  A  that's Andamhl.  Three, twenty-two.  Yeah.  That's the ancient name of that mountain.  And -- and there was a village, Giskaast village is  below the mountain, not far from the main road where  the vegetable farm is.  Where the vegetable farm is today?  Yes.  Not far from that.  And that's on the road -- the highway between  Hazelton?  Yeah.  And Kispiox, I believe?  Yeah.  Now, who holds the territory today, which House has  the territory where Wilt gallii bax was, that's 332.  That is Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix.  So that's the territory of your House?  Yeah.  :  I'm sorry, did I understand her to say that's the  territory of her House or the territory of her House  and another House?  It's the territory of your House?  Yeah.  Okay.  And you referred to Tsibasaa?  Yeah.  And Tsibasaa is in your House?  Yeah.  :  Yes, all right.  Thank you.  Let me ask you this, because I may be guilty of the  same mistake.  If you refer to Antgulilbix territory  or to Tsibasaa's territory, are you referring to the  same places?  I'm referring to the same place.  Okay.  Antgulilbix territory is Tsibasaa's, and vice  versa?  Right.  :  And what is number 332?  :  That's the name of the village to which I referred  to.  :  I see, all right.  Now, can you describe for the court in relation to  streams or other places that were there, where this  village is -- was located, Wilt gallii bax?  Yeah.  It's the mountain is where the -- where they 679  1  2  3 THE  COURT  4 MR.  GRANT  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  hunt for groundhogs, that's what they call ansin  gwiikw.  :  What did she give us the name of, a mountain?  Is that the name of the mountain or the groundhog?  The name of the mountain is Andamhl.  Okay, that's 322.  And the groundhog is called?  That's where they catch the groundhogs on the top of  this mountain.  Okay.  Now then, there is -- was the village located  at the same place as the vegetable farm, or somewhere  nearby?  Just where the vegetable farm is and they got --  that's why they got fishing ground not far from it at  the Skeena River.  Down below the Skeena?  Yeah.  Okay.  We'll come back to your fishing grounds.  Yeah.  Now, did you ever go to Wilt gallii bax with your  mother or your grandmother or great-great-grandmother?  I remember going with my grandmother when I was very  small, and I didn't forget we go through small trails  and we get to where the village used to stand.  There  were no trees growing there, just where bushes were  grown and that's where she picks some blueberries.  Did your grandmother Edith Gawa talk to you about this  village?  Yes.  Both great-great-grandmother and grandmother.  Okay.  What did they tell you about the village and  what was located there?  They said it was a village and they also got Feast  Houses there, they said, and they used to invite the  village -- surrounding villages for the Feast, for  their Feast.  Was anyone there except for -- were any other houses  there, that is --  No.  -- other than Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix House?  Oh, there was the village of Kispiox.  Okay.  But -- but at Wilt gallii bax, was there any  other houses other than Antgulilbix and Tsibasaa's  House?  No.  Do you know how long ago -- well first of all,  Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix did move to Kispiox from Wilt  gallii bax; is that right? 680  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  THE  TRANS  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  MR.  GRANT  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Yeah.  Do you know how long that was?  Was it before the time  of your great-great-grandmother?  Maybe it's long before her time.  It's very ancient  time.  And they said that we were told that, that our  Gitludahl in the ancient time --  :  Sorry, our what?  The Gitludahl?  Yeah.  Talk things over with Tsibasaa and ask him to  move up to Kispiox.  Even though it's not far away,  but they want to be together.  That's why -- that's  the reason why our Feast House stands in front of all  the houses at Kispiox, that's why our House name is  Luu hlim hetxwit, that means "Standing in front."  :  Mr. Grant I missed something here.  :  Gitludahl was number 11 on the list of plaintiffs,  My Lord, and the name of the house --  LATOR:  Number one.  :  It's number one on page 1 of the list provided  today.  Unfortunately I missed something before that.  Oh.  You missed Gitludahl.  I noted --  You see my note is that, "Our house moved to Kispiox  long before my grandmother's time."  And then I think  she started to tell me about why they moved, but I'm  not sure of that because that's where I lost the  thread of what she was saying.  Yeah.  Okay.  You understand, the court lost track?  Yeah.  Now, you indicated that you -- that Tsibasaa and  Antgulilbix talked with Gitludahl?  Yeah.  That's number 11 on the list.  And he was a head chief  of the Fireweed Clan in Kispiox?  Yeah.  And they discussed with him moving to Kispiox?  Yeah.  Okay.  Could you go on from there?  Yeah.  Ask them to move to Kispiox.  Gitludahl asked them to move to Kispiox?  Yeah.  And why was it that he wanted them to move to Kispiox?  Because they wanted them to be together.  Okay. 681  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  11  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  THE  COURT  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  THE  COURT  44  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47  THE  COURT  Because they were not very many people in the villages  in the olden days.  As you see on the picture, the old  Feast House, I remember every House there -- I think  there were about 12 in the first row and including our  house, and there were about two on -- at the front of  the rest of the houses.  That's Gyolugyet's and Ax  gigii' House.  :  Gyolugyet is number 24, Ax gigii' --  : I also missed, because I was backing up on something  else that she said something about that is why -- that  is why her house was in front of the others. Was that  in the first row or the other?  I think that the exhibit will assist you in this area.  And just a moment, My Lord.  I refer you to tab 3 of  Exhibit 17.  I'm showing you a picture, Exhibit 17, at  tab 3, and do you recognize those houses?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, can you point for the court, to which  House was Tsibasaa 's?  This one.  You can see the smoke hole, it stands in  front of the rest of the house.  This one here?  Yeah.  If you look in the picture there is a number of  poles --  Yes.  And there is the two poles to the farthest left.  Yes.  Below them there is a house that has a -- seems a  hole in the roof.  :  Yes.  And that -- it's behind another smaller house.  That's  the house that you are pointing to?  Yeah.  Okay.  That's Tsibasaa's House?  Yeah.  Now --  :  Well I'm sorry, Mr. Grant.  The pole on the extreme  left?  :  Yes.  :  Is the house of the -- that the witness is referring  to, the one immediately in front of that pole?  :  Immediately in front of that pole and behind the one  that's in the foreground.  :  Yes.  The one where you can only see a small part of 682  1  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GRANT  6  THE  COURT  7  8  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  MR.  GRANT  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GOLDI  35  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  40  THE  COURT  41  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GRANT  the roof?  You see a small part of the roof and then it  stretches out behind the other house.  Yes, all right.  Possibly you can make a mark on that.  Does it stretch out on either side of the house in  the foreground, and overlap with the second pole from  the left.  Yeah.  Okay, do you want to just maybe make a mark  with a "1" in red pen on this exhibit where that is? ,  Just write on the house.  Okay, you've done it above  the house.  Is that above the hole in the roof of the  house?  Yeah, just above the smoke hole.  Yes, My Lord.  Yes.  May I see it?  Yes, thank you.  Okay.  Now is that house that you've just been  describing, is it facing a different direction than  the other houses that you see further along to the  right-hand side of the picture?  No.  It didn't face the different direction, it  faces -- you see the rows of the rest of the houses go  that way, that's -- that's the way the house faces.  So it faces the other houses?  Yeah.  Okay.  :  Do we have a date for this photograph?  :  I don't have a date -- I don't have a date here.  I'll check a copy.  I don't believe there is a date  record on this one, but I will advise the court.  :  All right.  E:  Perhaps when my friend checks that he might see if  there is any indication of its origin, whether it's a  archival photograph or --  :  Yes, it is archival and it's either from -- it's  from the National Museum of Canada.  It's negative  number 49290.  :  Do we have a date by reference to any event that  caused these buildings to disappear?  They are not  there now, are they?  No, they are not there now.  When did they disappear?  Well I'm going to --  All right, thank you. 683  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  16  17  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  A  37  MR.  GRANT  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  THE  COURT  47  THE  TRANS  Did you see this house that you described?  I seen it when I was very small.  Okay.  And do you recall when that house, the house of  Tsibasaa in that photograph was torn down or fell down  or was no longer there?  I didn't see it torn down, but I heard that Uncle  George sells the house to someone and that's why they  tore it down.  It's a very large log house.  And  that's where the marble stone stands today in front of  that house is where our -- where I have seen the old  totem-pole laying down, and begins to rot on the  ground.  :  Okay.  I would like you to -- My Lord, I intend to,  after going through this document, the document book,  to tender at the conclusion of this witness' evidence,  to include this as an exhibit proper, depending on her  identification of it, rather than pulling out each  photograph as a separate exhibit.  :  Yes, all right.  I would like to refer you back to that picture, and I  would like you, if you could start, you recognize  other houses in that photograph as well, do you?  Yeah.  Okay.  If you would start -- now I'll show you this,  on the far right-hand side, looking at the picture,  okay?  Oh, yeah.  The ones in the background, and I would like you to  identify, and we can put numbers beside them for the  court, the -- who the other houses are in the  photograph, whose -- which chiefs are those houses?  The first house is Haaxw's house, and the second is --  :  You mean the one in front of the tree?  :  Just point to if for the court, okay?  The second is --  Which one is Haaxw's?  If you could just use the pen  you can put that mark there.  Can you see it all  right?  You can see some of the houses are -- are already torn  down in those days, so I see just -- just Gutginuxw's  house.  Okay.  You put a two above Gutginuxw.  Okay?  And there is --  :  Do we have the spelling for that?  LATOR:  Number 14. 684  1  THE  COURT  2  A  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  MR.  GRANT  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  THE  COURT  36  THE  TRANS  37  THE  COURT  38  39  MR.  GRANT  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  :  Thank you.  This is in the middle of the house.  Sorry, which one?  This is Gitludahl.  Put a three above it.  And then Gitludahl --  That's the white one?  No.  That's -- the white one is Geel, and Gitludahl  like I said, the house is already torn down, but I  know the exact spot.  Okay.  So is Gitludahl's house in the picture?  Gitludahl's house is between Geel and Delgam Uukw.  Okay.  Put a four where it would be.  Where is whose house again?.  Gitludahl —  Yeah.  -- it's between Geel and Delgam Uukw and it's below  number four?  This is Geel.  Put a number five above Geel's.  And that's the white  house and about the centre of the picture?  Yeah, that's Geel's house.  Okay?  And next to Geel is Ma'uus house.  Is it hidden by your house in this picture?  I can see part of it because they was so close you  could see there, see?.  Where it seems one side of the roof is going up --  Yeah.  -- and then it goes --  Yeah, yeah.  Put a six above that?  :  What's the name of that house, please?  LATOR:   Number 48, Ma'uus.  :  Okay.  I didn't get the ownership of the one that  was described as number four in the photograph.  Okay.  Number four, the one beside Geel' s house, whose  is that?  Gitludahl' s .  And next-- I'll finish this side first.  And this -- they get Ma'uus' house.  Ma'uus' house is behind yours, is it, and it's below  number six?  Yeah.  That's next to Geel's.  And next to Ma'uus is  Dawamuxw's house. 685  1 Q   Okay, just a moment.  You can't see it in the  2 photograph, can you?  3 A   Yeah, but I know it.  4 Q   Okay.  Just I'm going to give you another picture,  5 okay?  6 A   Okay.  7 Q   Here is tab 4.  Now does this assist, tab 4 of the  8 book, do you recognize the houses in this picture?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Now, is Dawamuxw's house in that picture?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Okay.  Could you just put a number one where his house  13 is?  14 A  Where Dawamuxw.  15 Q   Okay.  It's second from the right of tab 4?  16 A   Yeah.  And next to Dawamuxw is Xsim gaakhl.  17 Q   Xsim gaakhl?  18 A   Xsim gaakhl.  That's Wii elaast and both Wii elaast  19 and Xsim gaakhl.  20 Q   Okay, that's both Wii elaast and Xsim gaakhl.  21 THE COURT:  That's the house next to Delgam Uukw?  What is the  22 name of the house next to Delgam Uukw?  Delgam Uukw  23 she said was second from the right?  2 4 MR. GRANT:  Dawamuxw.  25 THE COURT:  Oh, sorry.  2 6 MR. GRANT:  Dawamuxw, it's different.  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's number three and Xsim gaakhl it's not on  28 there, it's spelt X-S-I-M —  2 9 THE COURT:  Just a moment.  Yes?  3 0 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-A-A-K-H-L.  31 THE COURT:  Well is there a house — I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, but  32 I'm just simply not able to follow this the way it's  33 gone in.  34 MR. GRANT:  We are at the same tab, tab 4, My Lord?  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MR. GRANT:  The only one she has numbered thus far is number  37 one, it's second one from the right.  3 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 9 MR. GRANT:  40 Q   And that is Dawamuxw's house.  She started to explain  41 the next house is Xsim gaakhl and Wii elaast's house  42 -- Xsim gaakhl's house?  43 A  Wii elaast got his own house but they are relations,  44 that's why I mentioned both.  45 Q   Okay.  Could you put a number two above Xsim gaakhl's  46 house?  Okay.  And then you are going further down the  47 road, there is a small house it looks like? 686  1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  THE  TRANS  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  TRANS  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  20  MR.  GRANT  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  COURT  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  THE  COURT  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  Q  46  47  A  Yeah.  That used to be a store that belongs to late  Charles Wesley.  It used to be a store?  Yeah.  And then what's the big one behind it, there is  another big house looks like?  That's -- that's our house, another -- that's our new  house.  As you see the old one is not used when I was  small, and this one is what they used.  An elderly guy  lived in this house, his name is Kwoodaast, Xsim  Jolik, Kwoodaast and Xsim Jolik.  LATOR:  Number 11 on the names and Xsm Jolik is 27.  :  That's number 11 and --  LATOR:  Number 27.  :  Number 27 on the list of names, house names.  Okay,  could you put a three above your house just so the  court will be able to refer to it later?  :  Oh, I have a four above that.  I numbered the little  store as number three, is that right?  Oh, you numbered the store, okay.  She has now  numbered the exhibit as number three, My Lord, above  her house.  Now there is one house in the foreground  on this particular photograph that's right -- the  furthest to the right.  Whose house is that?  That's Ma'uus' house that I showed in the other  picture  Just put a four above Ma'uus' house.  :  It's the one behind the tree, is it?  :  No.  We are talking in the foreground behind the  pole, My Lord.  The furthest to the right on the  picture.  Oh.  Back to there.  Back to there, all right.  Sorry, the big one on the  right is number four and whose house is that again?  :  Ma'uus' house.  It was referred to in the earlier  photograph as well.  :  Can I ask the witness a question please?  Is number  three on this photograph --  :  Tab 4.  :  On tab 4, the same house she marked as hers on tab  3?  Do you understand that?  Is this house the same as  this house?  Yeah.  The first house I showed is the old house, and 687  1  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  THE  COURT  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  this one is the old one when -- at the time when  Gitludahl was just --  :  Just it's sort of hard because I'm right beside you  and the reporter can't hear.  Mr. Goldie was right  beside me and so, just for the record, she was  pointing to the picture number -- of her house on tab  3 as the old house.  :  Yes.  And her house in tab 4, the one under number three is  the new house, and she indicated that that was  erected -- that was erected at the same time as the  pole was erected?  Yeah.  In the foreground of the picture in tab 4?  Yeah, yeah.  That's why the house is -- was still used  when I was small.  Okay.  Like Geel's house before the community hall, and Wii  elaast house, all those big houses were used for  Feasts, and also Hlo'oxs' house.  Just a minute.  :  Is the pole she is referring to the most leftwardly  pole in tab 4, the pole on the left?  :  If you are facing at the most furthest to the right,  the pole right in the foreground.  :  Oh.  Furthest to the right.  And that pole was raised by  Gitludahl?  Yeah.  And you said not Moses Morrison, the previous holder  of that name?  Yeah, the previous.  His name is Alexander.  I  remember seeing him when I was small.  Okay.  And you've seen these houses in this picture,  tab 4 when you were small?  Yeah.  That's where I grow up, that's how I know I --  even if I could -- I didn't see the picture, I was  still put where the house stands, where all the houses  stand.  We should go on that side.  Okay.  This is in tab 3, you wish to refer to the  houses after your number two?  Yeah.  That is that go to the further back?  Yes.  Okay.  Can you just point to them for the court and 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  TRANS  10  MR.  GRANT  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  TRANS  31  MR.  GRANT  32  THE  TRANS  33  MR.  GRANT  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  Q  47  mark them with a pen?  You are up to six there.  Okay.  This is --  Here, I'll hold this for you so you can point to them.  This is Kliiyem lax haa's house, where Kliiyem lax  haa's house used -- there it is, that's the old house  Okay.  Can you put a number seven there?  Seven is whose house?  Kliiyem lax haa's house.  Which is number --  LATOR:  Thirty-five.  Thirty-five on the list of plaintiffs.  And next to Kliiyem lax haa's house there you see  it's -- it's already torn down and there is one house  is standing this way, you can see part of it next to  Kliiyem lax haa's.  It used to be there but it's not in this picture; is  that right?  No.  Only a small house is standing there.  Okay.  Which is the next one that you see in the  picture going towards the right-hand side of the  picture from Kliiyem lax haa's, this one here?  Kliiyem lax haa's house stands between this one.  This  house is  Hawaaw's house, and Gwii yeehl stands  between Kliiyem lax haa's and Geel's.  Could you put a number eight above Hawaaw's house?  And the other one was Gwii yeehl's house that used to  be there?  Yeah, yeah.  :  Could you give the numbers for Gwii yeehl?  LATOR:  Nineteen.  :  And Hawaaw?  LATOR:  Thirty.  Okay.  And next to Hawaaw is Haaxw, and it's already torn  down.  In this picture?  Yeah.  So that's the end of the houses in that row.  And there is two that facing the rest of the houses,  that's Gyolugyet's, both Gyolugyet and Ax gigii'.  :  Just a moment, please.  :  On the photo at tab 4, number two may look like an  "A", My Lord.  :  Yes thank you.  Now, I would like to refer you to the photograph at  tab 4, again, and you've described those houses, and 689  1 you've described the pole.  Whose pole is it on the  2 right-hand side?  Now, could you --  3 A   This one.  4 Q   That's Gitludahl's pole?  5 A   Yeah.  6 Q   Now who's pole is it that's sort of the next -- if you  7 look along the skyline, it's next to the left of it?  8 A   That's Ma'uus' pole  9 THE COURT:  Sorry?  10 MR. GRANT:  11 Q   Ma'uus' pole.  12 A  And these are Geel's poles.  13 Q   And you were pointing to this -- there is something in  14 the front and then there seems to be two, two poles  15 there?  16 A   Yeah.  17 Q   Okay.  Those are the next two along and then --  18 A   Yeah.  19 THE COURT:  Whose poles are they?  2 0 MR. GRANT:  Geel's.  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  Number eight.  22 THE COURT:  Eight, thank you.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  24 Q   Now there is some carvings down in the front of those  25 and I'm not referring, My Lord, to the horses.  Whose  26 carvings are those?  27 A   That's Geel's.  Geel's carving.  The other one is  28 Mediigam tsa 'wii aks, and the other one is whale,  29 black —  30 Q   Black whale?  31 A   Yes.  32 MR. GRANT:  Maybe the translator could spell that phrase?  33 THE TRANSLATOR:  Mediigam, M-E-D-I-I-G-A-M, tsi 'wii aks, T-S-I  34 space W-I-I space A-K-S.  35 MR. GRANT:  36 Q   Now, when you referred to that word, was that one of  37 the crests of Geel?  38 A   Yeah.  39 Q   What does it mean?  40 A   It means a sea bear.  41 Q   Now going further back there is another pole, and  42 again this would be the second pole from the left of  43 the photograph.  Whose pole is that, it appears to  44 have a bird on the top or something?  45 A   That's in front of Dawamuxw' house.  46 Q   Okay.  Is that Dawamuxw' pole?  47 A   Yeah. 690  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  Q   Okay.  And what about the pole furthest to the  left-hand side?  A   That's Xsim gaakhl.  Q   Xsim gaakhl pole?  A   Yeah.  Some poles fall down, like our pole.  Q   Okay.  Your pole is not in this picture?  A   No.  Q   Okay.  COURT:  Xsim gaakhl is what number, please?  TRANSLATOR:  It's not on there.  I've spelt it Xsim gaakhl,  X-S-I-M  G-A-A-K-H-L.  COURT:  H-L?  TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  Thank you.  I note -- I'm not sure what time you were  No, this will be all right.  Thank you, Madam Reporter.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  Yes, we'll adjourn.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:25 p.m.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability.  Toni Kerekes,  O.R., R.P.R.  United Reporting Service Ltd.  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE COURT: I'm informed that Mr. Sterritt has been reached and  I've set Friday morning at 9:30 to hear his further  application.  MR. GRANT:  Friday morning?  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  My Lord, I did speak to the witness at the  brief break that we had and she indicated to me that  she was feeling a bit tired.  I wonder if we could go  until four?  THE COURT:  Well, we'll go as long as we can.  If she can't go 691  1 beyond that, then of course we'll adjourn.  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q   Yes. I was referring you to Exhibit 17 and you  4 described the poles of the picture at Tab 4.  I refer  5 you to Tab 5.  There's a pole there.  Could you tell  6 the court whose pole that is?  7 A   That's Ax Giigii's.  8 Q   A-x G-i-i-g-i-i.  9 Q   And is Ax Giigii a person -- a member of a House?  10 A  Ax Giigii is the head chief of the House.  11 Q   Okay.  And which -- who's Ax Giigii today?  12 A  Mrs. Lottie Muldoe at Kispiox.  13 Q   And is she -- and whose House is she in right now?  14 A   She's in Ax Giigii's House.  15 Q   I refer you to -- oh, and one other point, did you see  16 that pole?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And is that pole at -- was that pole at Kispiox?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Is it still there?  21 A   Still there.  Only the canoe is lost and I heard some  22 rumours that some tourists walked away with it.  23 Q   So this pole is still standing, but the canoe that's  24 in it isn't there?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   I refer you to the photograph at Tab 6.  Do you  27 recognize who that man is?  28 A   Yes, he's -- he's the elder brother of late Henry  29 Russell.  They call him -- his English name is Tom  30 Seaman and -- and I forget his chief name.  They got  31 many chief's name.  They are from the House of  32 Gutginuxw.  33 MR. GRANT:   What number is that?  34 THE TRANSLATOR: Number 14.  35 MR. GRANT:  36 Q   On the list of plaintiffs.  37 And he appears to be wearing a collar or something  38 around his neck.  Do you know what that is?  Can you  39 explain that to the court?  40 A   Yes.  That's what -- what the Indians call luux.  41 MR. GRANT:   Could you give a spelling for that?  42 THE TRANSLATOR: Luux, L-u-u-x.  4 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 4 MR. GRANT:  45 Q   And why -- who's entitled to wear the luux and why do  46 they wear it?  47 A  A chief will wear it.  It's time they put up a great 1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  692  big Yuuks, what we call Feast.  He got one luux, some  got three luux around their neck.  This was in the  ancient time and --  And did you see this man?  Yes, I have seen him when I was very small.  Okay.  I refer you to Tab 7.  Do you recognize those  pictures there?  Yes.  Yeah, those are raised poles and wolf carving of  Geel's.  They're a close up of what you described in the  photograph at Tab 4 as Geel's; is that right?  Yes.  Now, just going to those, could you tell us what -- on  the right-hand side what that pole is?  It's a snake.  Is that one of the crests of Geel?  Yes, that's his crest.  Okay.  They say that a great big huge snake kill one of the  member of Geel's House and they kill the snake, that's  what they got the crest.  Okay.  Now, there was a -- now, immediately again on  the right-hand side there's two other figures, there's  the one on the right-hand side, is that the sea bear  that you referred to?  Yeah.  And then there is another one on the left between the  two poles?  A black whale.  Are those both crests of Geel's?  Yes.  And then on the left-hand side, is that part of the  pole of Geel?  Yeah, that's part of his pole.  Now, are those -- do those crests or those poles still  stand in Kispiox?  The snake is still standing.  Okay.  But the other pole isn't?  Yeah.  But -- but Geel restore his pole in 1971.  I  forget he carved another pole and raise it.  Okay.  So there is a pole of Geel that is there?  Yeah.  But it's not the same pole as in these photographs?  In other words, it was a new pole that he made?  Yeah.  You have seen those crests on that pole?  Yes. 693  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  THE  COURT  29  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  THE  TRANS  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  Now, I refer you to Tab number 8 and in this picture  on the left-hand side appears to be again Geel's poles  and the crest in between them?  Yes.  The figures -- I should say they're carved figures  when I refer to crests that are sitting in between the  poles in the photograph?  Yeah.  Now, can you recognize any of the other poles in that  picture?  Yeah.  There's -- there's a House of Gutginuxw that I  showed you and there were three poles standing in  front.  Okay.  Just --  This is the other one where the owl sits on, so  Gutginuxw means owl.  Okay.  Just let me clear the record up.  You pointed  to the two-storey building as the House of Gutginuxw?  Yes, that's the new House.  :  There are two, two-storey buildings, are there not?  I'm sorry, you're right, My Lord.  The two-storey  building with a porch, the veranda on the upper floor  is the one you've pointed to?  This has got a porch or  veranda on the upper floor and that's Gutginuxw's  House?  Yes.  :  What number is that, please?  Is it one of the  numbers on the --  :  Oh, the number of the plaintiff, Gutginuxw.  Could  you --  LATOR: Fourteen.  :  Fourteen.  Thank you.  Now, then you referred to the nineth pole from the  left-hand side which seems to have a figure on the top  and that's the pole that has the owl on it?  Yes.  Okay.  I'd like you to mark that with a one in red,  just mark right beside the owl.  What shall I mark?  Just a one is fine.  Okay.  You marked a one above  that pole?  Yes.  And next to Gutginuxw is Kliiyem lax haa's House  and this the pole of Kliiyem lax haa.  Okay.  Could you put a two above that pole of Kliiyem  lax haa just above it? 694  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  THE  COURT  12  THE  TRANS  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  TRANS  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  THE  TRANS  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  TRANS  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  Yeah.  And this -- there's the figure -- you see the  small figure on the top, that's Git waltxwm gibaaw on  the top of Kliiyem lax haa's.  What is that figure?  Can you translate what that  means?  It means a raiding wolf.  A raiding wolf?  Yeah.  :   Okay.  That's a chief name in Kliiyem lax haa's  House.  :  What's his number, please?  LATOR: It's not on —  :  Kliiyem lax haa?  LATOR:   No, no, Git waltxwm gibaaw.  :  Sorry, My Lord, you wish the number of Kliiyem lax  haa or --  :  Yes.  Well, I'm told it's not there.  :  Kliiyem lax haa is number 35.  LATOR: It's number 35, but Git waltxwm is not.  :  All right.  The raiding wolf.  Now, in this photograph here, is there any of the  other poles that you can describe or that you wish to  describe what they are, whose poles they are in other  words?  Next to Kliiyem lax haa's House is Gwii yeehl's House  and they got Mediigam tsa 'wii aks too as their crest.  :   Okay.  Just a moment.  Gwii yeehl is what number?  LATOR: Gwii yeehl is number 19.  And is that the same crest as the raiding wolf,  Madiigam -- what is it?  Mediigam tsa 'wii aks.  Gwii yeehl is a Fireweed and  Kliiyem lax haa is a wolf.  :  Is it the pole to the left or the right of the  raiding wolf?  Yes.  Can you point to which pole in this picture is  Gwii yeehl's pole?  Can you see it -- recognize it in  the picture?  No.  Okay.  But I know that each House there's a pole standing in  front and next to Gwii yeehl is Hawaaw's House.  Okay.  Now, in this picture the Houses of Gwii yeehl  and Hawaaw aren't actually in the picture? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  THE  TRANS  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  MR.  GRANT  695  Yeah, yeah, and all the poles standing up, but I  recognize Hawaaw's pole there.  There's the gwaa  skiiks sitting on the top of the pole.  And what is that?  What is a gwaa skiik?  That means a small eagle.  :   Okay.  Could you put a number three above Hawaaw's  pole?  :  And what's his number?  :  Hawaaw, yes.  What number is it on the list?  1ATOR: Hawaaw is number 30.  :  Thank you.  Okay.  The others are further back.  It's hard to --  It's -- the other is Hawaaw's pole and the last one is  Haaxw's pole.  Okay.  Could you put a four above Hawaaw's pole and a  five about Haaxw's pole?  That was before they move Haaxw's pole to the ball  ground at Hazelton.  :   Do you want to give the numbers of Hawaaw and  21 Haaxw?  22 THE TRANSLATOR: Haaxw is number 27.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  And Hawaaw?  24 THE TRANSLATOR: Hawaaw is number 30.  25 THE COURT: Can I see it for a moment, please?  Thank you.  2 6 MR. GRANT:  27 Q   Okay.  My Lord, I wish to move into another area now.  28 This is in the aspect of laws.  Are there laws as to  2 9 how a young -- young women who reach puberity are  30 prepared or that they have to go through something?  31 A   Yes.  There's -- I didn't see the house they called  32 wilba 'yasxw.  33 THE TRANSLATOR: W-i-1-b-a '-y-a-s-x-w.  34 THE COURT: Is that a House in the sense of a group of people or  35 is that a house in the sense of a building?  3 6 MR. GRANT:  37 Q   That's a special kind of house, it's a building?  38 A   It's a very small building just for the young -- young  39 lady alone.  And the other name for it is wilba k'ooy,  40 that's a very ancient word, wilba k'ooy.  41 THE COURT:  Spelling, please?.  42 THE TRANSLATOR: W-i-1-b-a k- underlined, '-o-y.  4 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 4 MR. GRANT:  45       Q   Now, did your grandmother tell you about these houses?  4 6       A   Yeah.  47       Q   And what were they used for? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  696  That's when a young teenager got her first period.  She's not supposed to live among the people.  It's to  live by herself in these small houses until the end of  the year and she's not supposed to eat fresh fish for  a whole year and fresh meat.  When you reached that period of your life, did you --  were you stopped from eating fresh fish and fresh  meat?  Yeah, they didn't allow me to eat fresh meat or fresh  fish or touch the fresh fish or the meat.  Is there a term for this period, this time of a girl's  life?  Yeah, it -- if she does eat the meat that the hunters  saw, they said it will bring bad luck to the hunter.  He won't catch anything and it will cause trouble to  his eyes.  And today the people are still -- still  doing it.  They didn't allow their girls to eat meat  or eat some fresh fish for a whole year.  Did you train your daughters in this way?  Yeah.  Brenda and Colette?  Yeah.  Is there any other prohibitions or restrictions of  what a girl could do at this time?  Well, she's not supposed to -- to -- she's supposed to  cover her hair, yeah.  If she doesn't cover her hair  they said she will have grey hair real early, in the  early life.  And if she -- anything that she's not supposed to look  at?  At the sky.  Why is that?  It will spoil her eyes.  What about the mountains?  Yeah, the mountains, both the sky and the mountains.  She's not supposed to look at both the sky and the  mountains.  No.  Why isn't she supposed to look at the mountains?  It's not -- it won't be any good for the eyes too.  Okay.  Is she allowed to eat -- or is she prohibited  from eating any type of berries?  She's not allowed to eat those berries that are still  on the bushes during wintertime and in the early  spring like April they pick these berries, what we  call t'imi'it.  If she eats those berries in no time  her teeth will be all gone too. 697  1 MR.  2 THE  3 THE  4 MR.  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33 THE  34 THE  35  36 THE  37 THE  3 8 MR.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  GRANT:   Can you give a spelling for that Madam Interpreter?  TRANSLATOR: T"imi'it, t-'-i-m-i-'-i-t.  COURT  GRANT  Q  That's the berries is it?  This is the type of berries, yes.  Now, were you told by your grandmother about a  woman who did not do this?  A   Yes.  Q   Could you tell the court what happened?  A   Yes.  There's a young woman that stays with a married  couple.  This happens in mansion where they were  working and her parents were away for a while and  while they were picking berries this young lady came  and told her guardian that she got her periods, so  this lady took off her kerchief, and "Wear this." she  said, "And don't look at the sky or the mountain."  And she went away picking berries again.  "And you are  not supposed to eat fresh fish," she told her, "or  fresh meat."  But after they come home from the berry  picking she left the house and the lady that looks  after her is preparing something to eat, and she's not  home, and her husband went out to where the Chinese  restaurants are and there she was sitting in the cafe  eating some fresh trout.  And I miss out another thing  she did when the lady gave her the kerchief and -- a  few minutes after that she came and throw back the  kerchief to this lady that looks after her.  After she  did that she goes like this and "Look at this." she  said.  And I have seeing her, her -- both her eyes  were grey.  She -- but she managed to go around.  Q   You saw this lady yourself?  A   Yes.  COURT:  Was she blind or could she see?  WITNESS:   She sees little bit.  She managed to be around by  herself.  COURT: She was a bit blind?  WITNESS:   Yeah.  GRANT:  Q   When you say her eyes were grey, she had a hard time  seeing?  A   Yeah.  Q   Now, you followed these rules about not looking at the  sky or the mountains yourself when you were that age?  A   It's hard.  You can't always look down, you'd always  want to look far away.  Q   But these rules have still -- you have applied these  rules? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14 THE  COURT  15 THE  TRANS  16 THE  COURT  17 MR.  GRANT  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  698  Yeah.  Yeah.  Now, is there -- if a -- did your grandmother ever  tell you of cases where if a girl at this age dies  then what -- is there a special ceremony for her  funeral?  Yeah, they say when a princess died and before the --  they bury her or cremated her, they dress her up the  night before the funeral, and they dress her up and  made her sat up, made the dead body sat up and dress  her up like -- like she's a princess the way she  dresses up while she's alive and they made her sat at  the back of the house and this is what they call the  did'a'asxw.  :  Spelling, please?  LATOR: D-i-d-'-a-'-a-s-x-w.  :  Thank you.  Did your grandmother see this, what she described  about a princess?  No.  She just -- she just told me.  Was this --  That's what she -- she was told.  Yeah.  This was in  the very ancient time.  There's a few questions I'd like to ask you about the  adaawk.  You've told us certain adaawk today.  Have  you heard those adaawk, and I will be specific, the  adaawk of the Mediik at T'am lax amit, and the adaawk  of the dispersal, and the adaawk of the one-horn goat?  And I'm only arbitrarily separating them, My Lord, for  our purposes.  Have you heard those adaawk given in the Feast  Hall?  They give it at the Feast Hall about the one-horn  goat.  Okay.  Yeah, and also about the grouse.  Yes?  Yeah.  And have you heard the adaawk of the Mediik?  No.  Okay.  Have you heard the adaawk of the dispersal from  T'am lax amit in the Feast Hall?  Well, no they didn't tell it in the Feast Hall.  Okay.  Now, those other adaawk, let us talk about the  adaawk of the one-horned goat and the adaawk of the  grouse?  Yes. 699  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45 THE  COURT  4 6 MR.  GRANT  47 THE  TRANS  Is that -- were those adaawk given publicly so that  the other chiefs can hear them?  Yeah, so they can understand and they never forget  because, like Gyolugyet says, the Indians are not  supposed to use any other crest besides your own  crest.  That's why they tell the adaawk in the Feast  House and they know, everybody knows, whose crests  they are.  And the other chiefs have heard the adaawk of the  one-horned goat and the grouse?  Yeah.  And it's known within the Gitksan community?  Yeah.  Now, the adaawk of the Mediik, what you've described  about the Mediik at T'am lax amit?  Yes.  How did you learn that adaawk?  It was told by my grandmother,  great-great-grandmother --  Okay.  -- when she told about how they snowed in and the  Feasts of the goat.  Now, the adaawk of the Mediik and the snowfall at T'am  lax amit, are those known by other Gitksan people?  Yeah, they were known by many of them, yeah.  Are they known by the chiefs today?  Yeah.  Okay.  How do the other chiefs know of those adaawk?  It's their grandmothers and their uncles told them  because the uncle does give out many of the adaawk.  The uncle does give out many?  Yeah, the uncle give out some adaawks too.  Okay.  Yeah.  Now, is there -- okay, just a moment.  Now, when you say that the adaawk of the one-horn  goat and the grouse is given, you're referring to when  your own House has told those adaawk; is that right?  Yes.  Yes.  Have other Houses or chiefs of other Houses told the  adaawk of the Mediik in the Feast Hall?  Yeah, there's the Mediik that is owned by Gwii yeehl  and he knows the adaawk himself.  And he will tell it  himself.  :  Who's this please?  :  Gwii yeehl which is?  LATOR: Nineteen. 700  1 MR.  2 THE  3 MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  2 7 MR.  28  29  30 THE  31  32 MR.  33 THE  34  35 MR.  36 THE  37 THE  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  REGISTRAR:  Nineteen on the list.  Thank you.  Is that the Mediik coming down the mountain, the  Mediik that you told about?  No, they didn't say, that's why I said those that  owned the crest will tell it themselves.  Now, the snowfall at T'am lax amit, is that an adaawk  that all the Giskaast people --  Yes.  -- share?  Yes.  Is that -- so that all of the Giskaast Houses, any of  the chiefs of those Houses can tell that adaawk?  Yes.  And is it the same with the Mediik who came down the  mountain, that is, the Mediik you talked about?  Yes.  So that any Giskaast or Fireweed chief could tell that  adaawk?  Yes.  Yes.  My Lord, I was going to move into another area, and --  are you feeling -- it's about ten after four. How are  you doing, Mrs. Johnson?  Are you getting a little  tired?  No.  My Lord, as counsel with experience with this  witness, I don't want her to have to say that, but I  would ask that we adjourn now if that's all right.  All right.  Are counsel going to be able to assist  me at all on this hearsay question tommorrow?  I think we can deal with it tomorrow.  All right.  Shall we reconvene then at 9:30 tomorrow  morning?  Yes.  Thank you.  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO MAY 2E  1987, at 9:30 A.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Tanita S. French 701  Official Reporter

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