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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-06-08] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 8, 1987

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 862  JUNE 8, 1987  2 SMITHERS, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of the British Columbia,  5 this 8th day of June, 1987, Delga Muukw and others and  6 Her Majesty the Queen.  7 THE COURT:  Well, I hope everybody had a pleasant week.  8 Mr. Goldie.  9 MR. GOLDIE: My Lord, I spoke to my friend about a letter that I  10 had written during the break requesting production of  11 the map which was shown to Mrs. Johnson sometime ago,  12 in relation to the change of the boundary of her  13 territory, and I think my friend is getting it for me.  14 But to identify it for Your Lordship, I am referring  15 to Volume 13 of the transcript at page 787, where in  16 chief my friend put this question to the witness at  17 line six:  18  19 "Q   No, Jonathon Johnson told you this a  20 long time ago; is that right?  21 A   No, he didn't tell me, but that's just  22 what I was told a few days ago when they  23 showed me the map."  24  25 And I have asked for the production of that map.  26 And I think it is also the same map which is referred  27 to at page 789, again in chief -- well, actually  28 begins with page 788, line 46.  29  30 "Q   And I asked you before whose territory  31 was on the other side of that creek?  32 A   They said it was Ma'uus.  33 Q   Okay.  Who said it was Ma'uus?  34 A   Some maps were shown to me a few days  35 ago."  36  37 I think those are both referring to the same thing.  38 It may also be further duplication of a reference at  39 page 850 of Volume 13, line 31 to line 22.  This is in  40 cross-examination.  41  42 "Q   But up until a few days ago, the members  43 of your House and you thought that it was  44 perfectly proper to go to that mountain; is  45 that not correct?  46 A   No, we didn't say we owned the whole  47 mountain, we say that -- that there is a 363  clearing where Gyadim Lax ts'inaast Nass  lives.  But right on the top of the mountain  is Ma'uus, they showed me on the map ..."  And it goes over onto page 851, but I think those  are all the same maps, and I have asked for the  production of that.  8 THE COURT:  I wonder if the Reporter was able to get the  9 spelling of the name to which you referred, Mr.  10 Goldie.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  The best I can do for her is to give her the page  12 number of the transcript at page 850 and the -- it's  13 at line 36 to 37.  14 THE COURT:  Well, there is some virtue in consistency, if she  15 uses the same spelling.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  That's on the basis that I am going to proceed,  17 certainly not on the basis how I may vary from time to  18 time.  And I again -- I think this is the same  19 document at page 842 of Volume 13 of the transcript at  20 line 44 to 47.  21 THE COURT:  8 52?  22 MR. GOLDIE:  842.  And this is cross-examination.  Beginning at  23 line -- it should be 43.  24  25 "Q   And can you tell His Lordship who told  26 you that?  27 A   Neil showed me the map of Ma'uus, Neil  28 Sterritt, and he said that Ma'uus owns the  29 other side.  That's what I told in the Court  30 this morning.  31 Q   Yes."  32  33 And then she goes on to identify that as relating  34 to Jonathon Johnson.  So I'll wait until that is  35 produced or those maps to which those references refer  36 are produced, but to go on with the cross-examination,  37 My Lord, the Court should possibly have before it  38 Exhibit 17-9-A.  39 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, before my friend proceeds, I did speak with  40 him briefly this morning, just before the Court  41 commenced, and I hadn't seen his letter, although I  42 had reviewed the transcripts, so I thought his letter  43 was with respect to a different request than the  44 transcript.  I have clarified the reference that my  45 friend has referred to, and it's also referred to at  46 page 852, where he specifically asks in the transcript  47 that the map -- Mr. Goldie at line six: 864  'MR. GOLDIE:  What I ask now is the map that  the witness referred to in her answer, she  agreed with me that she looked at a map that  showed that this territory belonged to  Ma'uus.  That's the map I'm referring to,  and I ask for its production."  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18  19  20  21 MR.  22  2 3 MR.  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT  GRANT  GOLDI  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  MR. GOLDI  THE COURT  I have confirmed, and then I referred to the fact I  may have to speak to the witness, and Mr. Goldie  commented that she had spoken with Mr. Sterritt.  I  confirmed without speaking to the witness but with  speaking to Mr. Sterritt that the map to which she is  referring is Exhibit 17-9-A, that is the map which she  was referring to.  :  That's the one that she was shown?  :  That is the one she was shown, and these references  Mr. Goldie suggests are of the same map.  That's the  map that she was shown.  That's from confirmation  through Mr. Sterritt.  E:  Is it my friend's position that there is no map of  Jonathon Johnson?  :  No, it is not -- there is another map which was  produced on the discovery of Mr. Sterritt, although it  wasn't marked as an exhibit, it was produced to my  friends, I believe.  And this is a map of Jonathon  Johnson, but this is not the map to which this witness  is referring.  :  Nor the map to which she was shown?  :  It was not a map which she was shown.  She was not  shown that map.  There is a map that was a sketch map  drawn by Jonathon Johnson, and to be quite honest, I'm  not certain whether it incorporates even this area,  I'm not sure of that, but it's not germane to this.  The production of that, we have no difficulty with  that.  That was put on our list and it's available.  I'll arrange for the production of that.  E:  Well, I think the request that I make of my friend  is that there be produced, while this witness is still  on the stand, any documentary support for the  proposition that was put to her that Ma'uus was the  owner of the property shown on Exhibit 17-9-A, which  in the earlier map was shown as her property.  :  Well, I may not have grasped the full significance  of the evidence, but my grasp of it is this, that  until a very short time ago, as a result of a  conversation with Mr. Sterritt, and I think she said 865  1 two weeks, that she was not aware of any question  2 about that boundary.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  4 THE COURT:  Therefore, if she was shown the map that Mr. Grant  5 says is 17-9-A, then that would seem to answer your  6 inquiries.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  I am only pursuing it to this extent, My  8 Lord, that if there is any other documentary support  9 for the change in the map lines, other than the map  10 itself.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  You are not restricting that request then to  12 material that was shown to the witness by Mr.  13 Sterritt?  14 MR. GOLDIE:  Nothing whatsoever, no, I'm -- before this witness  15 leaves the box, I wish to have that clear.  16 THE COURT:  Well, I'm sure your friend understands that request  17 and he will deal with it if he can.  18 MR. GRANT:  Yes, My Lord.  19 THE COURT:  Now, do I need Exhibit 17, and if I do —  20 MR. GOLDIE:  17-9-A, yes, My Lord.  21 THE COURT:  Is that 17-9-A?  I guess my copy of Exhibit 17 is  22 back in my chambers, is it.  Perhaps you might get it.  23 It's on the table in the far corner by the window.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  25 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, I want to pick up some of the questions  27 that I was asking Mrs. Johnson at the adjournment, and  28 it has to do with the adaawk of the territory near  29 Kispiox village.  30  31 CONTINUATION OF CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE:  32  33 Q   Mrs. Johnson, can we --  34 THE COURT:  Of her House?  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Of her House, yes.  36 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  38 Q   Can we go back to the territory of Antgulilbix near  39 Kispiox village, which I sometimes call the southern  40 territory, and I would like to have your assistance in  41 identifying the features in that territory that the  42 adaawk refers to.  And when we were here last you told  43 me that it referred, the adaawk referred to a stream  44 which is known as Xsan Max Hlo'o, which is number 320,  45 My Lord.  Does that sufficiently identify it for you?  46 Perhaps the translator might say it for me.  47 THE TRANSLATOR: Can I have a look at it please? 866  GOLDIE:  The creek along that boundary.  THE TRANSLATOR: Xsan Max Hlo'o.  WITNESS:   Yes, Xsan Max Hlo'o.  GOLDIE:  Q   And that's referred to in the adaawk?  A   Yes.  Q   All right.  And it is now a boundary of the territory?  A   Yes.  Q   And the mountain -- and this again is at page 853 of  the transcript, line 38 -- Andamhl.  That's 322, My  Lord.  That's referred to as the Andamhl?  A   Yes.  COURT:  What is the name of this mountain please?  GOLDIE:   It's Andamhl, A-n-d-a-m-h-1.  COURT:  And that's 322?  GOLDIE:  Yes.  On the Exhibit 17-9-A the name is found along  the southern boundary.  Your Lordship, bearing in mind  that north on the side requires the map to be laid  sideways.  COURT:  Yes.  And it's found on the southern boundary?  GOLDIE:  Yes.  It interrupts the actual boundary itself.  COURT:  And it's marked on the map?  GOLDIE:  Yes.  The spot height itself of the mountain is --  and the mountains name is Hazelton Peak in English --  is just above the second "a" in the name which is --  forms part of, as I say, of the southern boundary on  the left-hand side.  Has Your Lordship found it?  COURT:  No.  Is it on the left or the right-hand side with  the north to the top?  GOLDIE:  With the north to the top.  It is really  immediately above the name of the House,  Luutkudziiwas.  COURT:  Oh, yes.  Yes, I have that.  GOLDIE:   Now, the spot height of the mountain itself is to  the right of that name, and immediately above the  second "a" of the name of the mountain.  Just a small  triangle set in there for the spot height.  COURT:  Sorry, I just can't find it.  GOLDIE:  Perhaps —  COURT:  Is it within the boundary or outside of the  boundary?  GOLDIE:  It's within the territory and it's above the  boundary.  COURT:  I'm sorry, maybe my eyes are so feeble I can't read  it.  GOLDIE:  If Your Lordship could hand me down the -- I have  1  MR.  2  THE  3  THE  4  MR.  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  THE  15  MR.  16  THE  17  MR.  18  19  20  21  THE  22  MR.  23  THE  24  MR.  25  26  27  28  29  THE  30  31  MR.  32  33  34  THE  35  MR.  36  37  38  39  THE  40  MR.  41  THE  42  43  MR.  44  45  THE  46  47  MR. 367  1  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GOLDI  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GOLDI  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GOLDI  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GOLDI  21  Q  22  A  23  THE  COURT  24  25  MR.  GOLDI  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GOLDI  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GOLDI  32  33  34  35  36  MR.  GRANT  37  THE  COURT  38  39  MR.  GOLDI  40  41  42  THE  COURT  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  GOLDI  put a circle around it.  :  All right.  Thank you. Oh, the name isn't here.  E:  No, the name is along the boundary itself.  :  Yes.  Oh, I see.  E:  That name, Andamhl, as you have told me, is part of  the adaawk?  Yes.  And then the little creek, Wilt gallii bax?  Wilt gallii bax.  That's 332.  And that's referred to at page 853, line  41.  And then at page 855 it is referred to again, as  I understand, line 30, Xsu Wil Gallii Bak?  Yes, Xsu Wil Gallii Bak.  And that, too, is referred to in the adaawk?  Yes.  :  Is that a different creek?  E:  I think it's the same one.  :  All right.  Thank you.  E:  And then the creek on the north side, Xsu Wil Masxwit?  Yes, Xsu Wil Masxwit.  :  Is that Xsan Max Hlo'o.  Is that what we are talking  about.  E:  Xsan Max Hlo'o is part of the north boundary but  it's to the right-hand side.  :  Of the creek?  E:  The one I am referring to now is to the left-hand  side.  The north boundary.  :  Are we talking about a creek or mountain?  E:  Well, there is a mountain by that name right on the  extreme left-hand side of the map, but as I understand  it, there is a creek of the same name flows out of  that mountain and forms part of the north of the  boundary.  :  It's 317 on the list.  :  But where it is is still a mystery to me.  What's  the name of it again, Xsan Max hlo'o?  E:  If Your Lordship has got Xsan Max Hlo'o, go left  along the solid line, which forms the north boundary,  and you have to turn the map upside down to read it.  :  I'm sure I am looking at what you are talking about  but I just don't see it on the map, that's the  problem.  I don't know whether Xsan Max Hlo'o that's  written in the big letters on this map is the name of  a creek or a boundary.  E:  It's a name of a creek which forms a boundary. 1 THE  2 MR.  3  4  5  6 THE  7 MR.  8 THE  9 MR.  10 THE  11 MR.  12 THE  13 MR.  14 THE  15 THE  16 MR.  17 MR.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24 THE  2 5 MR.  26  27  2  29  30  31  32  33 MR.  34  35  36 THE  37 MR.  38  39  40  41  42 THE  4 3 MR.  44  45  46  47  COURT:  That's not the one we are talking about.  GOLDIE:  No, we are talking about one that is immediately to  the -- if one uses the cardinal point, immediately to  the west of that along the boundary, and the word --  the title is -- forms part of the boundary.  COURT:  GOLDIE  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GOLDIE  WITNESS  COURT:  GOLDIE:  GRANT:  Is it written on the map?  Yes, it is.  What's the word again?  317 on the list.  I know, but what's the --  Masxwit.  TRANSLATOR: Masxwit.  GOLDIE:  Masxwit.  Masxwit.  Somebody spell it for me please.  M-a-s-x-w-i-t.  It's number 317 on the list and it starts with  "Xsu", the first word, W-i-1, and then the word Mr.  Goldie has spelt.  I believe there may be, My Lord --  I note that you are looking with an end to the top.  I  checked with the cartographer and the end is usually  -- he indicated that that was standard practise, so  when Mr. Goldie is referring to the west --  West is always left of north.  Yes, but the north, the "n", is -- the north is at  the point of the arrow and the "n" is at the bottom of  the base of that arrow.  Yes, that's where I got in trouble last week.  He's  got the longest arrowhead I have ever seen.  I got it  backwards.  He's got it right, of course.  But I just  can't find this name you are talking about.  You will  have to mark it again.  GOLDIE:  If Your Lordship could hand it down please.  I am  going to circle the word of the name which forms part  of the boundary.  COURT:  Oh, I see.  I understand.  All right.  GOLDIE:  That creek, My Lord, if I understand the evidence  correctly, rises in a mountain -- which has  substantially the same name -- and continues down, and  where Xsan Max Hlo'o leaves that creek, it ceases to  be the boundary.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  GOLDIE:  Q   Now -- and the mountain itself, which is Wil Masxwit?  A  Wil Masxwit.  Q   That's 318, My Lord.  That's referred to in the  adaawk?  COURT:  GRANT:  THE COURT 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  0  Q  1  2  A  3  Q  869  Yes.  Can you tell me any other features, streams that are  referred to in the adaawk of this territory?  There is just one stream came from Wil Masxwit, and it  runs into Kispiox River.  Yes.  And I was told that that's Antgulilbix's hunting  ground, and also the mountain where they got the  mountain goats and groundhogs there.  And you have given the names of that mountain as part  of the adaawk?  Yeah, yeah.  All right.  Thank you.  14 THE COURT:  Do we have a name for that?  I think we had it last  15 week.  Is it this S-k-a-n-i-s-i-m, S-i-k-a-d-o-o-k?  16 MR. GOLDIE:  That is the mountain.  17 THE COURT:  Perhaps the translator might give us that.  18 THE TRANSLATOR:   The mountains name is Wil Masxwit, and the  19 creeks name is Xsu Wil Masxwit.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  21 Q   Now, I want to ask you some questions about the --  22 what I call a northern territory.  And the map in  23 regard to that, My Lord, is 17-9-B.  24 Am I right, Mrs. Johnson, that there is an adaawk  25 for this territory?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And I believe you mentioned in your evidence -- and I  28 am referring to Volume 13 at page 798 -- you marked  29 with an "x" a lake which is number 303, and it's  30 English name is Williams Lake.  Do you recognize that  31 name?  32 A Called the Tarn Naa Lax Tsinaasit.  33 Q That's its Gitksan name?  34 A Yes.  35 Q And that is, I believe, 303.  36 And then you mark with a "1" a river which is --  37 and I'll ask the — it's number 301, My Lord.  I'll  38 ask translator to read 301.  39 THE TRANSLATOR: Xsi Wis An Skit.  40 THE WITNESS:   Xsi Wis An Skit.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  And that is the upper Kispiox River?  Yes.  And is that referred to in the adaawk?  Yes.  And then, I believe, you made reference to what is  number 310 --no.  I think it is the name for the east  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47 870  1 Kispiox River.  Anyway, is that mentioned in the  2 adaawk?  3 MR. GRANT:  What name?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Read 308 please.  5 THE TRANSLATOR: Xsu Wii Loobit.  6 THE WITNESS:  Xsu Wii Loobit.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  8 Q   Is that referred to, do you remember, in the adaawk?  9 A   Is it on our territory?  10 Q   Yes.  It's within the map that I have just shown to  11 you.  Well, I'm sorry, I don't see it.  Let me see if  12 I can find it a little later.  But let me ask you  13 about Xsi Lapsit.  14 A   Xsi Lapsit, that's a small creek that runs into Xsi  15 Wis An Skit.  16 Q   And is that mentioned in the adaawk?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   The Xsi Lapsit is 302.  19 THE COURT:  And the other one?  20 MR. GOLDIE:  I haven't found it yet.  21 THE COURT:  It's running across the bottom of the territory  22 within the boundary when you put the north on the  23 right-hand side.  2 4 MR. GRANT:  That's 301.  25 THE COURT:  301.  W-i-s, A-n, S-k-i-t?  26 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, that runs right up through the territory.  27 THE COURT:  Which one did you say, Mr. Goldie, was the upper  28 Kispiox?  29 MR. GOLDIE:  That's 301.  30 THE COURT:  Oh, all right.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   Mrs. Johnson, you told His Lordship that there was  33 some additional territory given to your House as a  34 result of the murder of Yal?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And that took place where Kuldo Creek flows into the  37 Skeena River?  38 A   Yes, Xsagangaxda flows into Skeena River, and on the  39 ice, they said, at the end of Xsagangaxda, that's  4 0           where Yal was murdered.  41 Q   Yes.  And Kuldo Creek, which is 310, is at the upper  42 part of the map, just to the left of the name  4 3 "Ma'uus"?  44 THE COURT:  Are you back to the southern property now, Mr.  45 Goldie?  46 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm still with the north, but it's —  47 MR. GRANT:  Could the interpreter give the Indian name, for the 871  1 witness, of the creek you are referring to.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  310, yes.  3 THE TRANSLATOR: Xsagangaxda, Xsagangaxda.  4 THE WITNESS:   That's the name of the creek, Xsagangaxda, where  5 Yal is murdered at the end of the creek, and it runs  6 into Skeena River.  7 MR. GOLDIE:   Yes.  Does Your Lordship have that?  8 THE COURT:  Well, she showed me last time you were here where  9 the ridges are.  I wasn't sure whether the line --  10 that could be the height of land or whether it's a  11 creek.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  The name that she gave to Your Lordship, which is  13 310, the English equivalent is Kuldo Creek, according  14 to the material handed up by the plaintiffs.  15 THE COURT:  Well, still putting the north on the left-hand side  16 of the plan -- as I recall, this area we are talking  17 about is this -- is this closely contoured area in the  18 top left of the territory within the boundary.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  If north is on the left-hand side, it is — the  20 creek in question is on the left-hand side.  21 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, with the north on the right-hand side.  22 MR. GOLDIE: With that, it's on the right-hand side, and it is  23 the creek that runs almost at right angles to the  24 name,  Ma'uus, and its got an interrupted dotted line  25 on it.  2 6 THE COURT:  Oh.  Well, that's not where she showed me the  27 compensation territory was last time.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  No, no.  It is the confluence of this creek in the  29 Skeena where the murder took place.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  And I want to make sure I have got the compensation  32 territory in a minute.  33 THE COURT:  All right.  So what -- what you are looking at now  is this property just to the left of the word  'Ma'uus"?  :  Yes.  The particular feature that I am looking at  is that interrupted line which runs from the -- almost  at right angles from her boundary to the right-hand  side of the map.  Yes.  And that, I am instructed, is Kuldo Creek.  42 THE COURT:  Is there an Indian name given to it?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, My Lord, it's found at 310.  44 THE COURT:  And what is it, just so that I can mark it.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Xsagangaxda.  46 THE WITNESS:  Xsagangaxda.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  Are we all agreed that's what 310 is?  34  35  36  MR.  GOLDIE  37  38  39  40  THE  COURT:  41  MR.  GOLDIE 872  1 THE TRANSLATOR: Yes.  2 THE COURT:  Well, I'm sorry I can't —  3 MR. GOLDIE:  According to this it is X-s-a-g-a-n —  4 THE COURT:  I have it then.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  And so on.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  That is 310?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  8 THE COURT:  And that's Kuldo Creek?  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, My Lord.  10 Q   So the murder of Yal took place outside your  11 territory?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Now, can you tell me whether there is anything more  14 mentioned in the adaawk of your House for the northern  15 territory?  16 A   Yes, grandmother told me and great-great grandmother  17 that at the end of Xsi Wis An Skit there is a hill and  18 they climb the hill, and there is a ridge there, and  19 on -- that's a boundary they said is the ridge.  And  20 on the other side the ridge, that's the land that they  21 gave our ancestors compensation for murdering Yal.  22 And grandmother said there is a tree standing there,  23 and it's smeared with blood.  And there is a sun on  24 the tree, and that's what Giskaast crest, is the sun.  25 So that shows the exchange of blood.  And they won't  26 take it back from the family crest until the end of  27 the world.  28 Q   And that story is in the -- or that -- what you just  29 said is in the adaawk?  30 A   Yes.  31 MR. GOLDIE:   And that is the ridge, if I understood her  32 evidence in chief, My Lord, that is at the top of the  33 creek which is the upper Kispiox River, number 310.  34 Q   Now, is there anything else mentioned in the adaawk of  35 the northern territory?  36 A   Yes.  When Uncle George Williams and his wife went out  37 there and they pass the ridge and get to the place  38 where the hunting ground that was given as a  39 compensation, they met two men on the ground.  Uncle  40 throw off his pack and pull out a small axe, and he,  41 without saying a word, he was going to chop both of  42 them, but they both cried and told him it's a mistake,  43 they didn't do it on purpose.  44 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Can you tell me who murdered  45 Yal?  46 A   The territory that belongs to Gyolugyet.  That shows  47 it's from Kuldo that did murdering. 873  1 Q   So the person who did it, belonged to Gyolugyet's  2 House?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And the compensation territory which your House  5 obtained was given by Gyolugyet?  6 A   They didn't say who it was but I notice on the map  7 there is Gyolugyet's territory.  8 Q   Does the adaawk say from whom the territory was taken  9 as compensation?  10 A   They just say he was murdered and they give the land  11 as an exchange for blood.  If they don't do that, they  12 will return the blood, like Uncle George almost did to  13 them.  14 Q   But as far as the adaawk tells us --  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   -- the people who murdered Yal were from Kuldo --  17 A   Yes.  Because it's the -- the territory is our  18 boundary.  19 Q   Yes.  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   So before the territory was given to Antgulilbix as  22 compensation for the murder of Yal, it belonged to  23 somebody in the village of Kuldo?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Because your territory marked the boundary between  26 Kispiox and Kuldo?  27 A   Yes, yes.  2 8 Q   Thank you.  29 I want to read to you some of the questions and  30 answers that you gave me when I questioned you in  31 April.  32 THE COURT:  Do we have that transcript, Mr. Goldie?  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Your Lordship should have the original of it.  34 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, it's in my Chambers again, Madam  35 Registrar.  It will be on my small table.  I can pick  3 6 it up.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Question 62 to 68.  38  39 "Q   Is George Williams dead?  40 A   He died long time ago.  I think  41 it's -- he died, yeah.  42 Q   And who has his name now?  43 A  When he died my, one of the close  44 relatives got the name; his name is Fred  45 White.  46 Q   Oh, yes.  47 A   Yeah, he got the name. 874  1 Q   And Fred White is dead now, too, is he?  2 A   Yeah, he is dead.  That's when my  3 brother took over.  4 Q   So, Stanley Wilson has the name now?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Does not Stanley Wilson, as the holder  7 of the name of Tsibasaa, have the right to  8 tell where people may use the territory of  9 Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix?  10 A  Yeah, yeah, that's what he did when they  11 registered the territory way up north, up  12 the, I mean Kispiox River, he put all the  13 names of the family, from even to, to the  14 small children.  15 Q   On the trapline?  16 A   Yeah, they were names all included  17 there."  18  19 Q   Do you remember me asking you those questions?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And did you give those answers?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Question 87:  24  25 "Q   I want to show you the other map that  26 was attached to your interrogatory and this  27 is the territory out by Swan Lake."  28  2 9 And I am going to show you the map of that  30 territory.  And do you recall me then showing you the  31 map which was thereupon marked as Exhibit 4 in that  32 discovery?  It's a document that is of your northern  33 territory marked "draft copy".  34 A   Yeah.  Is that the map that late Chris Harris made?  35 Q   No, I'm going to come to that in a minute.  3 6 A   Oh.  37 Q   My Lord, I would like to tender what was Exhibit 4 on  38 Mrs. Johnson's examination for discovery as an  39 exhibit.  40 THE COURT:  Yes.  Next exhibit, Madam Registrar.  41 THE REGISTRAR:  It's 21.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 21 - DRAFT COPY OF NORTHERN TERRITORY)  44  4 5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  I will have other copies of that for my friends but  47 I only have the one copy at the present time. 875  1 Question 157 to 167.  2  3 "Q   Did you ever know Chris Harris?  4 A   Yeah.  5 Q   Did he live in Kispiox?  6 A   Yeah, all his, all of his life.  7 Q   Did he ever speak to you about a map  8 that he was drawing of the House?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Boundaries?  11 A   Yeah, yeah.  12 Q   Did you remember him ever showing you  13 that map."  14  15 And there is no recorded answer.  16  17 "Q   Do you remember him ever showing you  18 that map?  19 A   No, but he told me he got, he made the  20 map, but I know the map is like you said  21 before, ask me question who draw the map, so  22 it's, it's uncle George Williams that draws  23 the map and passed on to Fred, then  24 to Stanley.  25 Q   Stanley has a map?  26 A   Yeah, he has a map that was, that was,  27 that was drawn by his uncle and it is in  28 the, in the, it is registered when the  29 territory is registered.  30 Q   As a trapline?  31 A   Yeah.  32 Q   Is —  33 A   That's uncle George --  34 Q   And that is —  35 A   -- draw that.  36 Q   Yes, and that is a map of your  37 territory?  38 A   Yes. "  39  40 Q   Do you remember me asking you those questions?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And you gave those answers?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Now —  45 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, the witness continues to answer after an  46 interjection between myself and Mr. Goldie through  47 167.  I believe that should be part of the answer -- 876  1 THE COURT:  You are looking at?  Page 3, question 167.  The answer continues on to  the bottom of the page.  Yes.  I think my friend is correct, that what is on  that page is a continuation of the answer.  Yes, all right.  :  And I'll read it to the witness.  "A  And another thing there is about Chris  Harris's map that he, he missed out another  territory at the end of Win an skit creek.  My grandmother told me this at the very end.  I have seen this creek, but I didn't get to  the end and there was a great big hill she  said and they go up this hill and there is  another territory on the top and they got  this territory for compensation in  exchange of blood because Yal is murdered at  what they called..."  And I won't read that, but that's the name of the  creek that we discussed a few minutes ago?  Yes.  "A   ...runs in Skeena River.  That's when  Yal is murdered in very ancient time."  Now, apart from my failure to read to you the name of  the creek, do you remember me asking you that question  and you gave that answer?  Yes, yes.  Thank you.  Now, My Lord, I have asked my friend to  produce the original of the Chris Harris map that I  asked the witness about, and I'm going to tender that  for identification at this time.  All right.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Does my friend have the original of that map?  38 THE COURT:  That will be Exhibit 21 A for Identification.  No,  39 I'm sorry, it will be 22 for Identification.  40 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, I discussed this matter with Mr. MacKenzie,  41 I guess, two weeks ago, and we -- I believe that if  42 it's the map that he referred to, he wished to examine  43 the original of the "Chris Harris map".  First of all  44 I -- of course, from this excerpt, the witness hasn't  45 identified that map, and of course my friend only  46 wishes it to go in for identification, as I understand  47 his position.  We don't object to that, but the  2  MR.  GRANT:  3  4  MR.  GOLDIE  5  6  THE  COURT:  7  MR.  GOLDIE  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT: 377  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GOLDI  23  24  25  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GOLDI  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  THE  COURT  34  35  36  MR.  GOLDI  37  38  39  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  THE  COURT  44  45  MR.  GOLDI  46  47  original -- what I wish to advise the Court is that  the original of this map is a -- if one may call it an  original, is basically -- the map itself, as I  understand, was destroyed and -- but the copy, a  tracing of the map, was made, and it was made on a  mylar type of material by which copies could be made,  and I provided those copies to my friends.  I would  ask that the copy go in by agreement on examination  and the comparison between the original and the copy,  that the copy go in because if the original goes in,  My Lord, it's impossible -- it's impossible to make  any further copies at that stage or, if not -- I  shouldn't say impossible but very very difficult.  Well, the original can't go in anyway.  You say it's  been destroyed?  The original map has been destroyed.  There is a  tracing of the map which has been done by Mr.  Sterritt.  You want to produce a copy of the tracing?  Yes.  Mr. Goldie?  E:  That's satisfactory to me, My Lord.  I understood  there was a document that came a little closer to the  original than the copy we have been given, but I am  quite happy to tender as a copy that we have made and  which is a copy of what was marked as Exhibit 20 on  Mr. Sterritt's discovery.  :  All right.  E:  And I will tender that, My Lord, as Exhibit 22 for  Identification.  Thank you.  21, I believe.  22 for Identification.  21 was the map that was  Exhibit 4 on the witness's examination.  This can be  called a copy of the Chris Harris map.  E:  Yes, that's the way it has been referred to.  There is a document that was marked as Exhibit 20, and  we were given a copy of it.  And I suppose what I am  asking for is production of the document that was  marked as Exhibit 20 on Mr. Sterritt's discovery.  :  Yes, I believe that that was the mylar, which this  copy was made.  :  Your friend wants to keep the mylar so he can make  more copies.  E:  As long as my friend is prepared to admit that this  map is a copy, a true copy of the mylar, then that's  satisfactory. )li  1 MR.  2  3  4  5  6  7 THE  8  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37 THE  3 8 MR.  39  40  41 THE  42  43 THE  44 THE  4 5 MR.  46  47 THE  GRANT  COURT  :  There seems to be a typewritten note that my friend  probably did for his own reference, "Neil Sterritt  version of Chris Harris map" on the bottom, on  Sterritt's examination for discovery, Exhibit 20, that  I don't believe is on the original, but other than  that this is a copy.  :  Thank you.  That will be Exhibit 22 for  Identification.  (EXHIBIT NO.  MAP)  22 FOR IDENTIFICATION  CHRIS HARRIS  GOLDIE:  Now then, question 172 to 174.  Q Now, these questions, Mrs. Johnson, were made -- were  asked of you when you had before you the Chris Harris  map?  A   Yes.  Q   And I am going to open it -- this document up and  place it in front of you.  Mr. MacKenzie is putting  before you the -- what was in front of you when I  asked you these questions.  Question 172:  "Q   First let me ask you this, Mrs. Johnson.  Have you ever heard of a House or a name of  Genulax?"  And you gave no answer to that.  "Q   And it is spelled out there (indicating)  just below the territory of Tsibasaa as  shown on that map?"  And I ask Mr.  Your Lordship --  MacKenzie to indicate that.  Does  COURT: Yes, I see that.  GOLDIE: Yes, all right.  COURT:  I found Tsibasaa and Genulax.  GOLDIE:  That is what Mrs. Johnson was being referred to.  Can the translator pronounce that word for her  please?  TRANSLATOR: I don't know if it's spelled right.  I don't  know.  Genulax.  Tsibasaa.  TRANSLATOR: Is the "x" underlined?  TRANSLATOR: No.  GOLDIE:  Perhaps we might continue because Miss Stevens was  asked to pronounce the name during the discovery.  COURT:  Yes. 879  1 MR. GOLDIE:  Question 173.  2  3 "Q   And it is spelled out there (indicating)  4 just below the territory of Tsibasaa shown  5 on that map?  6 A   Is this Chris Harris's map (indicating)?  7 Q   We are told that this is a copy of Chris  8 Harris's map?  9 A   Oh, I can't say, I never seen his map  10 before.  He told me he had made a map, so,  11 so on the other map my brother Stanley said  12 the territory is included.  13 Q   All right.  Well, then —  14 A   In another map.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, we cannot, I have asked  16 for Mr. Grant to get me the map that Mr.  17 Stanley Wilson has and we will look at that,  18 then.  19 A   So, I am not finished ..."  20  21 I'm sorry, I just wanted to go onto question 174.  22 Leave it at that.  Question 181 to 185:  23  24 "Q   I am not sure that you told me or  25 answered my question whether or not you have  26 heard of a House or a person carrying the  27 name of Genulax?  28 A   How do you pronounce that?"  29  30 Mr. Grant interjected and there was an attempt on  31 the part of counsel on both sides to pronounce the  32 name.  And question 182:  33  34  35 "Q   With the name in front of you how would  36 you pronounce that name, Mrs. Johnson?  37 A   How far is it from the territory of  38 Tsibasaa?  39 Q   It is right beside, it is right below  40 the Kispiox and where the East Kispiox River  41 come together.  42 A   So Chris Haris is not very old.  I think  43 he is almost the same age as I am, and  44 perhaps he doesn't know about the exchange  45 of blood, about the compensation.  That's  4 6 why he didn't include it in his map.  47 Q   But have you ever heard of a House or a 880  1 person bearing the name G-e-n-u-1-a-x?  2 A   How do you pronounce?  3 Q   I am going to ask you."  4  5 And then at question -- Miss Stevens was sworn and  6 she pronounced the -- at question 186:  7  8 "Q   Now, Mrs. Stevens, are you able to  9 recognize that as a Gitksan name,  10 G-e-n-u-1-a-x, it looks, sounds likes like  11 Genulax."  12  13 The interpreter then pronounced it.  Question 187.  14  15  16 "Q   Mrs. Johnson, having heard that name  17 pronounced by Miss Stevens, do you recognize  18 it?  19 A   No.  20 Q   All right.  Now, I want to ask you the  21 same question -- and do not go yet, Mrs.  22 Stevens, I want to ask you about the same  23 question about a family which is north of  24 the territory of Tsibasaa on Chris Harris's  25 map, and it is spelled, A-x-g-i-g-i-i.  26 Could you, please, pronounce that."  27  28 The interpreter then pronounced that.  Would you do  29 that please Miss Stevens.  30 THE TRANSLATOR: Ax Giigii.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   Did you hear Mrs. Stevens?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   189.  35  36 "Q   Do you recognize that name?  37 A   Yeah, that's our neighbour in the  38 territory Ax Gigii both, Ax Gigii and Wii  39 hag'y, are the people that dance in the  40 Feast House.  41 Q   So, you recognize the name there, the  42 holder of Ax Gigii now?  43 A   Yes."  44  45 Mr. Grant interjected.  191.  46  47 "Q   What is his or her name? 31  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  A His name Delgamuukw.  Q Delgamuukw?  A Yeah.  Q That is now Kenny Muldoe?  A Yeah."  Q   Now, Mrs. Johnson, do you remember me asking you those  questions and did you give those answers?  A   Yes.  Q   Thank you.  Q   Now, with respect to those last questions, and that is  to say the holder of the name Ax Gigii, I believe  earlier in your evidence you referred to that -- the  holder of that name as Lottie Muldoe?  A   Yes.  Q   Can you clarify that for us?  Is it now Kenny Muldoe  or Lottie Muldoe?  A   It's still Lottie Muldoe because Ax Gigii got his own  House on our village, is what we call -- they call  this place Lax a'yans.  These Houses facing the rest  of the Feast Houses in the village and there is a  totem pole that belongs to Ax Gigii.  That's the guy  that dance when my uncle raised the marble stone, it  was the one horned goat, and him and his brother were  dancing because -- their father is our ancestors.  That's why they did that.  Q   Yes.  And is the holder of the name today Lottie  Muldoe?  A   Yes.  Q   And at one time was Delgam Uukw the holder of that  name also?  A   Delgam Uukw got his own House.  Q   All right.  A   Yes.  COURT:  Mr. Goldie, would this be a convenient time to  adjourn for lunch?  GOLDIE:  It would, My Lord.  COURT:  All right.  We'll adjourn then.  Come back at two  o'clock.  1:30, is that convenient?  GOLDIE: Yes.  REGISTRAR: Order in Court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 1  2  3  4 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  5 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  6 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  7 SKILL AND ABILITY.  8  9  10 LORI OXLEY  11 OFFICIAL REPORTER  12 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1  THE  regist:  2  i  3  THE  COURT:  4  MR.  GOLDIE  5  Q  1  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  1  14  Q  15  A   '  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  MR.  GOLDIE  28  29  30  THE  COURT:  31  MR.  GOLDIE  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  RAR:  Order in Court.  Witness, I remind you you're still under oath.  Mr. Goldie.  Mrs. Johnson, I want to ask you one or two more  questions about Chris Harris.  Was he from Kispiox?  Yes.  And was he a chief?  Yes.  He used to be Chief Luus after his uncle died  and then his brother Jeff Harris took over.  And Jeff Harris -- I'm sorry.  Yes.  And he's from the House of Luus and what  Gyolugyet call her wil 'na t'ahl.  What clan is the House of Luus?  Wolf.  Wolf?  Yes.  And, of course, as you've said, Chris Harris is dead  now.  Do you remember when he died?  No.  As the holder of the name of Luus, he would attend  Feasts, would he not?  Yes.  And he would hear the adaawks that were said at the  Feasts?  Yes.  :  I want to read to you some more questions and  answers from your examination for discovery.  And  question 55 to 61:  Question 55?  55 to 61:  Q  "Mrs. Johnson, do you speak for Stanley  Wilson in this case?  A  Yeah, he's supposed to be here, too, but  he got no ride because he knows about the  map way up north.  Q  He knows about the --  A  Yeah, and he knows this, too.  Q  Do you tell Stanley Wilson where he may  hunt on the territory?  A  No, the reason is at the Feast I  mentioned earlier that's when, when  hereditary chief got up and told which  hunting ground he owns.  That's where the 884  1 great big Feast, what we call the great  2 big Yuuk.  They invite all the  3 surrounding villages."  4  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Do you remember being asked those questions?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   You gave those answers?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And question 58:  11  12  13 Q  "Yes.  14 A And no children allowed in those days to  15 make any noise, just like this table now.  16 And the chief really drinks in what,  17 what the family that hosted the Feast,  18 even though they didn't write, but they  19 write it in their heads.  20 Q  Yes.  21 A  So, he gets up and tells which territory  22 all these maps you see," indicating the  23 maps, "and the chiefs sat there all  24 taking in, every one of them and they  25 know which the chief's boundary is.  26 That's what he tell and which maintain  27 where they get their main food" --  28  2 9 THE COURT:  That's mountain.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  31 Q   Oh, mountain, yes.  I'm sorry.  32  33 "That's what he tell and which mountain,  34 where they get their main food and which  35 berry patch they own and each fishing  36 ground.  37 Q  Yes.  38 A  They all got their names, too.  39 Q  Who was the head chief that you refer to?  40 A  Tsibasaa, my late Uncle George Williams,  41 he is the one that gets up and told the  42 guests where the hunting ground is, and  43 he mentioned all the names besides him,  44 his family that will go to the hunting  45 ground and, and they, if they got sons  46 and daughters from, from the rest of  47 the -- like Wilfred, my brother, he 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A   '  4 4 MR.  GOLDIE  45  46  47  marries to a frog, and his children  will get permission from Tsibasaa or  myself or Yal, and they got every right  to go to any of these territories."  Do you remember those questions?  Yes.  And you gave those answers?  Yes.  Now, so that at that great big Feast that you referred  to  —  Yes.  -- where your uncle George Williams --  Yes.  It would be the adaawks that he would be telling?  Yes.  Do you remember when that great big Feast was?  It's 1916.  1960?  16.  16?  Yeah.  Have the adaawks for the territories been told since  then?  Yes.  At Feasts at which you've been present?  Yes.  Do you remember if Chris Harris was present at any of  those Feasts?  Sometimes he's present, but he's -- he's on the  health.  He didn't come to all of the Feasts.  But it is your recollection that Chris Harris would be  present at some Feasts at which the adaawks of your  house would be told?  Yes.  Thank you.  Can you tell his lordship when the last  time the adaawks of your house were told at a Feast?  And when I say "the adaawks of your house", I mean  with respect to the territory?  Yeah.  It was in 1974.  1974.  When we restore our pole.  :  Right.  Thank you.  Now, I'm going to ask you to  clear something up for me on the map, Exhibit 17-9-B,  which is the map of the northern territory, and I'm  going to refer you to some of the evidence that you 1  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT:  6  Mr.  GOLDIE  7  THE  COURT:  8  MR.  GOLDIE  9  THE  COURT:  10  MR.  GOLDIE  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  i  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  WITNES  gave at a week ago Friday.  Page 812 of transcript  Volume 13, my lord.  And Mr. Grant was asking you some  questions and at line 2, he said this:  And I'll read  his question and your answers.  I'm sorry, Mr. Goldie.  Page 812?  :  Page 812, starting at line 2.  Thank you.  :  Starting at line two, my lord.  Thank you.  Q   "Do you know a man named Charles Johnson"!  A   Yes.  Q   Is he alive now?  A   No.  He died long time ago.  Q   Do you know what house he belonged to?  A   He belongs to the House of Dawamuxw."  Dawamuxw, Dawamuxw.  That's not the same house as Delgam uukw, is it?  No.  Different.  Different house?  Dawamuxw is a fireweed and Delgamuukw is a frog.  Right.  And that -- on the list that was handed up by  my friends, my lord, of the plaintiff's of the  Kitwancool chiefs, it is number three.  the present holder of the name is Mr.  Clifford?  Oh, which name?  Of Dawamuxw?  The present holder is Charles Clifford.  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, you were asked this:  And that's  Charles  Q  "Does Charles -- does Charles Johnson have  any rights to your territory?  A   No.  He got a right on his own territory,  the House of Dawamuxw.  Q   When we refer to your northern territory --  A   Yeah.  Q   -- does Dawamuxw have a territory near  there?  A   Yeah.  It's -- that's our neighbour."  Yes, 887  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   Can you show me on the map where he is your neighbour?  3 Can you find his name for me on the map?  4 A   Yeah.  We -- our territory is between Dawamuxw and --  5 and Ax gii gii, Delgam uukw.  6 MR. GOLDIE   I see.  On Exhibit 17-9-B, your neighbour to the  7 south -- no.  I'm sorry.  The neighbour to the west,  8 if I've got this oriented the right way, is Delgam  9 uukw.  But should that be --  10 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Wouldn't it be east?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  12 Q   I hope not.  13 A   Delgam uukw is on the north side.  14 Q   I see.  And Dawamuxw?  15 A   Dawamuxw.  That's -- that's -- your ear means muxw.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I — I don't say I share his lordship's tin  17 ear, but it's not a very perceptive one, I can assure  18 you.  But can you tell me by looking at that map where  19 Dawamuxw is?  20 MR. GRANT:  There's an M in it, Mr. Goldie.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  22 Q   I've got enough M's in my own name.  Can you help me  23 with that, Mrs. Johnson?  2 4       A  Where Dawamuxw --  25       Q   There's Delgam uukw, and I put my name -- my hand over  2 6 the name on the map.  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And there's your territory, which is is unnamed?  29 A   Oh, yeah.  Is that where they --  30 Q   That's where Geel is, yes.  31 A   That's -- that's Dawamuxw'  32 Q   I see.  33 A   -- territory, but he's related to Geel.  That's why  34 his name is on there too.  35 Q   All right.  Thank you.  36 A   Yes.  37 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Did she say that —  38 MR. GOLDIE:  39 Q   She -- if your lordship has the map pointed in the  40 same direction that I have, at the bottom of the map  41 is Geel?  42 A   Yes.  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  45 Q   And my understanding of the witness' evidence is that  46 she said that is where Dawamuxw' territory is, but he  47 is related to Geel.  Am I putting it correctly? 1 A   Yes.  2 Q   I want to refer you to your examination for discovery  3 again, questions 351 to 357.  4  5 Q   "No.  All right.  Thank you.  I want a final  6 question.  I want to refer you back to the  7 map of Chris Harris, which is identified as  8 Exhibit "20" on Mr. Sterritt's discovery,  9 and ask you; do you know who Geel is,  10 G-e-e-1?  11 A   Yeah.  12 Q   Does he have territory out by yourself and  13 near Swan Lake?  14 A   No, the late William Steven used to live  15 there all his life and he comes from the  16 House of K'ali sgalan and Delgam uukw.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me just a second, please, I  18 am trying to follow this on the map.  19 Q   Yes, go on.  20 A   Yeah, late William Stevens used to leave the  21 trap there all his life and --  22 Q   Is there --  23 A  And he comes from the House of K'ali sgalan  24 and and Delgam uukw.  They got their own  25 totem poles.  26 Q   Is that a Gitksan house?  27 A   Gitksan house, that's in Kispiox.  2 8 Q   Right.  29 A  And they got totem poles and marble stones  30 there and they got their own songs and they  31 raised a pole; I think it's around in the  32 early, before sixties when, when the two  33 brothers raised the pole; William Stevens  34 and Moses Stevens.  Moses Stevens is K'ali  35 sgalan and William Stevens is Laan."  36  37 A   Laan  38 Q   Laan?  39 A   Yeah.  4 0       Q   Thank you.  41  42  43 "And they raised their pole in Kispiox so  44 when K'ali sgalan help raised the new pole  45 that's when he got Delgam uukw, so K'ali  46 sgalan's family and, both K'ali sgalan and  47 Delgam uukw on land and Bisdaa'y?" 1  2  3 I'll show this to the translator and ask her to  4 pronounce it, please.  5 A   It's Bisdaa'y.  6 Q   Bisdaa'y?  7 A   Yeah.  That's a chief name.  That means grouse or  8 drumming grouse, grouse.  They got a song for that.  9 Q  10  11 "That is the name, that's the sister, that  12 is the only sister and their family and  13 grandchildren got every right to that  14 territory and another territory somewhere  15 near there is called Gwalx luu wan, that's  16 where Henry Alan used to be there before  17 Silas Johnson, that's where Henry Alan lived  18 all his life, that's where Walter should be.  19 Q   Walter Harris?  2 0 A   Yeah."  21  22  23 Q   Do you remember --  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   -- me asking those questions and you giving those  26 answers?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And Walter Harris is Geel, is he not?  2 9 A   Yeah.  30 Q   Now, are any of the people that you named in your  31 answers, William Stevens, Moses Stevens, Henry Alan,  32 Silas Johnson, are any of them members of the house  33 that we were referring to a few minutes ago, Dawamuxw?  34 A   Yeah.  They were related, yeah.  35 Q   Should -- should the territory be in Geel's name or in  3 6 Dawamuxw' name?  37 A   Dawamuxw.  It should be in -- in both those names and  38 the rest of the higher chief, like Laan and Bisdaa'y.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  Right.  Thank you.  40 MR. GRANT:  My lord, before my friend proceeds, I wish to  41 confirm that before this witness commenced her  42 evidence or shortly thereafter, I corresponded with  43 both Mr. Goldie and Mr. Macaulay regarding --  44 regarding this transcript, and I referred to them that  45 on -- in this last series of questions wherever it  46 said Delgam uukw, it was an error of the reporter and  47 it should have read Dawamuxw and I corresponded with 390  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GOLDI  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  MR.  GOLDI  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  them with respect to that; that he had made a mistake  and referred to Dawamuxw in all of those.  Where does that error begin?  Well, it begins with respect to this series of  questions in answer -- the last line in answer to  question 352.  He comes from the house of K'ali sgalan  and -- that should be Dawamuxw.  And Question 354?  And 354 Should be the House of K'ali sgalan and  Dawamuxw.  Yes.  And also with 356.  And 356.  Yes.  I see it.  The 10th and 11th line.  It's in two places there.  It should be Dawamuxw.  :  Is that agreed, Mr. Goldie?  E:  Yes.  That's —  :  Thank you.  Does it continue on?  :  I think there was some other errors.  He hasn't read  them in yet.  :  All right.  361, that may be correct the way it is.  Is 361 an error?  :  No.  That was his question and that was not an  error.  E:  Nor was the answer.  Now, we had before us in April the map which has  now been marked as Exhibit 21.  And let me ask you  this question before I refer you to the map.  Did you  ever understand that in the territory which is marked  as Geel and which you've explained the relationship  between Geel and Dawamuxw --  Dawamuxw.  Thank you.  Did you ever understand that that  territory was once claimed by the Kitwancool people?  No.  All I know is that's Dawamuxw' relation live on  that territory and his brother and all his  sons-in-law.  So if -- if the map, which is now Exhibit 21,  indicates that the external boundary of the claims  area excluded what is now marked as Geel, it was in  error?  Perhaps I'm being -- putting that question at  too great length.  It is your evidence that the  Kitwancool never lived in Dawamuxw territory?  No.  All right.  Thank you.  I wish now to refer briefly to  some of the uses to which your territory has been put. 891  1 And, first, do you remember telling me that Stanley,  2 your brother, has a map of the trap line and the -- in  3 the territory out by Swan Lake?  4 A   Yeah.  And it was drawn by my Uncle George Williams.  5 Yes.  I remember everything.  I remember I'm the first  6 one that met you in April.  7 Q   Yes.  8 A   Right here.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  You're quite right.  I'm going to read to  10 you -- well, I have referred you to what you told me  11 about the map that was drawn by his uncle and I asked  12 my friend to produce the original of a document that  13 he gave me, which was a photocopy of two pieces of  14 maps pasted together.  I wonder if my friend has that.  15 MR. GRANT:  I have endeavoured to -- Mr. Wilson is not present  16 today and I did an investigation and the copy of the  17 map which was made for my friend, I have a copy  18 identical to it.  The original was returned to Mr.  19 Wilson.  I can advise that I understood that that -- I  20 can advise the Court and my friend that the original  21 of that map is exactly identical to that.  That is,  22 Mr. Wilson's copy is exactly like that.  It's a  23 photocopy as well.  I also understand that the  24 original is held within the Fish and Wildlife Branch  25 of the provincial defendant.  But if my friend is  26 quite concerned about seeing the other photocopy of  27 Mr. Wilson's, I have no problem with producing it.  28 It's just that I want to advise him it's identical to  2 9 that map.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  31 Q   I understand what my friend is saying.  The reference  32 to it being identical to a document in the possession  33 of the Fish and Wildlife Branch is, I think, with  34 respect too abreviated.  The document that we have  35 been given is cut from two maps.  36 In any event, have you -- you've seen Stanley's  37 map, have you not, of the trap line?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Is that the -- is it like what I am now showing you?  40 Don't worry about the writing at the bottom of it.  41 The -- what I would like you to search your mind for  42 is whether that is -- looks like Stanley's map that  43 you were telling me about in April?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   You feel it is?  46 A   Did Stanley see this?  47 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I have no -- you're directing that question 892  1 to Mr. Grant, and he tells us that this is a copy of  2 what Stanley has.  3 MR. GRANT:  I can't answer your question.  That's why I'm not  4 answering.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, you — I can ask Mr. Grant if he confirms the  6 accuracy of what I had stated.  7 THE COURT:  Well, he already has.  8 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I have confirmed that this is the map, and as  9 my friend pointed out, it's put together as a courtesy  10 to my friend.  It is correct that actually the one Mr.  11 Wilson showed to me was two sheets of paper and so  12 that it's understandable we taped them together so  13 that it showed as a continuous map.  This is a -- then  14 it was immediately -- it was photocopied and that was  15 the copy that was produced.  And that's -- that's the  16 map that Mr. Goldie is presenting to the witness.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  18 MR. GRANT:  I may also say I spoke with Mr. Wilson about this  19 particular map.  2 0 THE COURT:  All right.  21 MR. GRANT:  22 Q   The -- and it is -- is that map then the one that you  23 understand your Uncle George Williams had?  24 A   Yes.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Now, I'd like that marked, my lord.  26 I'll get a clean copy because it has handwriting of  27 mine on the bottom of it, but if a number could be  28 reserved for that.  29 THE COURT:  Yes.  That will be 23.  30 (EXHIBIT 23:  Map)  31 THE COURT:  It's a map of what, Mr. Goldie?  32 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it is -- it is a map which shows an outline,  33 what are trap line territories.  And the -- there is  34 underlined on both pieces of this map, which is -- Mr.  35 Grant has stated was taped together, the number  36 0630T021.  And that is the name -- the number of a  37 registered trap line, and I'll come to that in a  38 minute.  Perhaps, Madam Registrar, you could show that  39 to his lordship.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  42 Q   Do you recognize your brother's signature?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   I'm showing you some rather poor photocopies of a  45 document and I'm going to refer you to the top half of  46 the page, and there is beside the printed word  47 "signature of applicant", the signature Stanley 893  1 Wilson.  Does that look like your brother's signature?  2 A   Yes.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, what I have showed to the witness, my lord, is  4 a printed form headed "Province of British Columbia  5 Game Act Application For Registration of a Trap Line".  6 And the name of the applicant is Stanley Wilson, post  7 office address Hazelton, B.C.  I'm going to show the  8 witness a couple of other pages.  This is the -- these  9 are the contents of a trap line file.  10 THE COURT:  Are you tendering the application?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  I beg your pardon?  12 THE COURT:  Are you tendering the application?  13 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm going to tender all of them together, my lord.  14 If I may —  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  17 Q   -- refer to one further document.  It's the second  18 from the last, second page to the last, and there's a  19 handwritten page that's headed "Stanley Wilson, Fred  20 White and Company."  Fred White was Tsibasaa, was he?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And Stanley is now Tsibasaa?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And then there are names, Leonard Gawa, Wilfred, and I  25 think there's a --  26 A  Wilfred Gawa.  27 Q   Gordon Johnson?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Mary Johnson?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   That's you?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Alfred Latz?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Is he now dead?  36 A   He's -- he is -- he died a long time ago and Leonard  37 Gawa took over as chief.  38 Q   Arnold Tait?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Is he a member of your family?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And Donald Tait?  43 A   Yes.  Don died last August.  44 Q   And this -- these are the members of that particular  45 trap line, are they not?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Including you? 894  1 A   Yes.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, unless my friends have objections, I'm going  3 to tender the -- all of the documents which relate to  4 this trap line without going through them page by  5 page.  6 THE COURT:  What's the date of the application?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  The date of the application, my lord, is July 15th,  8 1965.  9 MR. GRANT:  My lord, the position I take is that the two  10 documents which the witness has identified should --  11 they can go in, but the entire file, I will object to  12 it going in.  13 THE COURT:  What are the contents of the rest of the file?  14 MR. GOLDIE:  The contents of the rest of the file, firstly, a  15 handwritten memorandum from Frank Gillian, who is a  16 conservation officer -- and this is an internal  17 memorandum to the senior conservation officer at  18 Smithers saying "July 27th, '84, re trap line."  19 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  That's just a handwritten memorandum and refers to  21 the boundaries.  Then there is a document with a  22 geographical description which is, I believe,  23 comparable to but not in the same words as the  24 application.  And then there is a letter from -- to  25 chief conservation officer, an internal document which  26 identifies the trap line in question and the  27 application referred to Fred White.  Then there's the  2 8           handwritten document which the -- I put to the  29 witness, and then there is a further document, trap  30 line transfers, Stanley Wilson, and it refers to the  31 difficulty in the -- in determining the outline of the  32 territory.  The -- I can say to my friends that the --  33 these were, of course, listed and these documents are  34 what is found in the trap line file dealing with the  35 number that is underlined in the document, which will  36 be Exhibit 23, namely 0630T021.  37 THE COURT:  Well, it seems to me that your friend's objection,  38 Mr. Goldie, is probably sound subject to the -- to the  39 larger question that was raised by the notice of  40 motion filed returnable at the start of this trial.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  And I think I should come to that in relation  42 to -- to the -- what was tendered at that time, namely  43 a map of the registered trap lines.  But in the  44 meantime, I would ask that the -- well, I'm going to  45 reserve my application to have this tendered as a  46 single exhibit until I complete my submission with  47 respect to the trap line. 895  1 THE COURT:  Well, I think for the moment I'll agree with your  2 learned friends and allow you to put in, if you wish,  3 just the two documents the witness has identified and  4 put off to another evil day the sufficiency of which  5 will be determined in due course.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q   Well, let me -- before I tender those documents, my  8 lord, I had a couple of questions to put to the  9 witness.  10 Mrs. Johnson, is it my understanding that your  11 house has one trap line, and that is in the name of  12 Stanley Wilson at this time?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And does every -- to your knowledge, does every  15 Gitksan house have a trap line?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Now, would somebody who was not a member of your house  18 require your permission or the permission of your  19 brother to trap on the territory of Antgulilbix?  20 A   Yes.  It will be my -- brother's children will do  21 that.  22 Q   Yes.  23 A   If they want to go to the territory, they will get  24 permission.  That's what we call am nig wootxw.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  2 6 THE COURT:  Did you get that word, Madam Reporter?  27 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I'm going to refer to the motion that I  28 made -- just right there will be sufficient.  Thanks.  29 And it was left for further consideration at the time  30 and I'm going to renew it at this point in relation to  31 this map, which has registered trap lines, and the  32 supporting documents which is called "Registered Trap  33 Lines, Ministry of Environment and Parks Supporting  34 Documentation".  May I hand up to your lordship the  35 copy that your lordship had on May 11th?  And I'm  36 going to refer to the transcript at Volume 1.  37 THE COURT:  Do I need the transcript?  38 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  I'm just going to give your lordship the page  39 references, because it was there that I made my  40 submission with respect to this particular document  41 and I don't propose repeating it.  And if I may  42 refresh your lordship's recollection, what I did was  43 to go through the affidavit material in the support of  44 the notice of motion so that your lordship would have  45 a sense of the -- the manner in which this was dealt  4 6           with.  47 MR. GRANT:  My lord, if I just may interject at the very 396  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  THE  COURT  6  7  8  9  10  MR.  GOLDI  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  14  15  16  MR.  GOLDI  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  19  MR.  GOLDI  20  MR RUSH:  21  THE  COURT  22  23  24  25  MR.  RUSH:  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  37  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  THE  COURT  40  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  THE  COURT  43  44  45  MR.  GOLDI  46  47  THE  COURT  beginning here, I wonder if this is going to take some  time, if the witness could just stand down or --  Well, she can if she wishes, yes.  So she doesn't have to --  You can stay there if you want, Mrs. Johnson, or you  can go for a walk, whatever you want.  We're not going  to need you for a few minutes.  You suit yourself  wherever you're most confortable.  We may not be long.  Will we, gentlemen?  E:  I don't intend to be long.  :  All right.  Well, since I suppose that I'll be replying to this,  this was my previous habit.  I can't give you an  explanation of how long I'll be because we didn't know  we were going to hear this motion.  E:  I'm sorry.  I informed my friend that I was.  Oh, no.  What I heard you say was that you were going  to introduce two maps.  E:  Introduce the trap line map and --  And put it to the witness.  :  No.  All right,gentlemen.  I don't think there's any  advantage.  If you have a misunderstanding, I'll be  glad to hear about it in due course.  Are you taken by  surprise, Mr. Rush?  What I can say is that my understanding of the  conversation I had earlier today with Mr. Goldie was  that two maps, this one and another one, were going to  be put to the witness, as I thought was the  disposition of your lordship's comments at the  beginning when this motion was dealt with by you.  And, principally, that if in cross-examination a map  was going to be suggested or presented to a witness,  it would be presented to that witness and they would  see what they could do with it.  :  Yes.  You expected the witness to either identify  the map and make it an exhibit or not identify it and  that would be the end of the matter.  That's what I expected.  :  You say you didn't understand that your friend was  going to seek to renew his application?  That's correct.  :  All right.  Now, can you proceed that way, Mr.  Goldie, by just presenting the map, or do you want to  renew your application?  E:  Well, if Mrs. Johnson can identify that map, I'll  be surprised.  :  Do you want to try? 897  1 MR. GOLDIE:  I'll try anything once.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  4 Q   Mrs. Johnson, if you could turn around in the witness  5 box for just a minute.  I'm showing you a large map,  6 and beside it is a map that's entitled "External  7 Boundaries of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en territories.  8 And that map has been marked as an exhibit.  Now, this  9 map has somewhat similar broad black outline, but  10 inside it there are a lot of lines which are not shown  11 in Exhibit 5.  Now, these lines I can tell you, are  12 intended to be the external boundaries of trap lines.  13 And one of the -- one of them is the number that I  14 read to his lordship a few minutes ago, 0630T021.  15 Now, if you would like to have Stanely's map in front  16 of you.  Just hold that map if you would, please.  17 Thank you.  Now, I show you up here the number  18 0630T021, under 68.  And would you agree with me that  19 under that number on Stanley's map is the number 68?  20 A   Yes.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  And then the number is repeated a little further  22 down, and it -- it is near the Kispiox River and I'm  23 going to point on this map to where the Kispiox River  24 is.  And it's just up there.  And on this map there is  25 repeated 06302030, and I suggest to you it's just like  26 Stanley's map.  Would you agree with that?  27 MR. GRANT:  Well, the number you pointed to is —  28 MR. GOLDIE:  Partially obliterated.  29 MR. GRANT:  It's partially obliterated, also to the extent that  30 it's T021, not T030.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I think we are looking at the same thing, but  32 we're seeing it with different eyes.  33 THE COURT:  I think you're right there, Mr. Goldie.  34 MR. GRANT:  That's a fact with which I agree.  35 THE WITNESS:  Is this the one he referred to?  So this is the  36 second one.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Mrs. Johnson, will you agree with me that there is  38 shown on this large map what is shown on Stanley's map  39 in the area that I have indicated to you, and that's a  40 much smaller area than what you're looking at because  41 this is a much larger map.  Would you agree with the  42 fact that the one is the same as the other so far as  43 that trap line 0630T021 is concerned?  Perhaps I can  44 be of some assistance by bringing this closer to you.  45 Now, there's the -- there's the first part up there  46 that I'm suggesting and then down here is the other  47 part.  There are the two maps. 1  THE  2  3  MR.  4  THE  5  MR.  6  7  8  9  THE  10  11  MR.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  MR.  37  38  39  40  THE  41  MR.  42  THE  43  44  MR.  45  46  47  COURT:  Is this map the part of the map that you're showing  Mr. Goldie, one of these smaller maps in this --  GOLDIE:  Grey book?  COURT:  Yes.  GOLDIE:  No, it isn't, my lord, because those maps are  related only to the three trap lines which are in the  Prince George district, all other trap lines being in  the Smithers district.  COURT:  Yes.  Because the smaller map would be certainly  easier for the witness to --  GOLDIE:  Q   Yes.  I agree.  The -- I am going to direct Mrs.  Johnson's attention to one further matter.  And that  is that beside the trap line number that I have been  using, which is Stanley Wilson's, I show you that the  number to the right of it is 0630T018 and below it is  67.  Would you agree that that is what you see on  Stanley's map?  I'm referring to that right there.  A   Oh, yeah.  Q   And then over to the left is 0630T030 and below it is  the number 65.  And would you agree that that is the  same as Stanley's map?  A   Yes.  Q   And the lower sheet of the map -- well, that is partly  obliterated, but on the lower sheet also is the number  0630T030 and I show you that as being to the left and  below the number 21 on Stanley's map.  And I suggest  to you that is -- that is the same number as is found  where I am pointing on the large map.  A   Yes.  Q   Well, thank you.  Would you be prepared then, Mrs.  Johnson, to agree that the large map which is headed  "Registered Trap Lines" correctly shows and outline  the trap line which is shown on Stanley's map?  A   Yes.  GOLDIE:  Thank you.  I ask that the large map be marked as  an exhibit, and I accept the present, my lord, that it  is identified only with respect to registered trap  line number 0630T021.  COURT:  Give me the number again please.  06 --  GOLDIE:  0630T021.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  The large map may be Exhibit 24,  proving only that limited fact.  GOLDIE:  May I ask that that be marked as Exhibit 24A and  that there be reserved as Exhibit 24B the document  entitled "Map 2, Registered Trap Lines, Ministry of  Environment of Parks Supporting Documentation". 399  1  THE  COURT  2  3  MR.  GOLDI  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  MR.  GOLDI  30  31  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  37  38  39  40  MR.  GOLDI  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GOLDI  45  46  47  :  Well, you can reserve the number.  (EXHIBIT 24A:  Map)  E:  Unless my friend is prepared to admit it.  :  No.  We're not prepared to admit that.  My lord, I  am concerned about -- at this point in time, I'm  concerned about the Exhibit 24A.  I think the  transcript will show that the -- I believe it's  Exhibit 23, the map which you referred to as the  Stanley Wilson map, had numbers similar to the Exhibit  24A.  :  Yes.  :  But what I'm concerned about is that Exhibit 24 not  go in to necessarily show what those boundaries are.  I have not had an opportunity of making a comparison  and neither did the witness while she was giving  evidence.  She was -- pointed out to a series of  numbers and those numbers are on both Exhibit 23 and  Exhibit 24.  If it's admitted for those purposes,  that's fine, but I don't think that the evidence goes  further than that.  :  Well, the note I made of her evidence was that I  agreed that the large map, Exhibit 24A, correctly  shows the area of trap line 06302021.  That's as far  as it goes at the moment and that's rebuttable.  There's nothing conclusive about it.  But it seems to  me we're wasting a great deal of time on matters over  which there should be no dispute at all.  But I -- I  hope we don't have that sort of --  E:  Well, I hope so too and I'm sorry that my friend  didn't understand that I was going to do what I said I  was going to do back on May the 11th, and that is, if  my friend was not prepared to proceed with a motion  that I was making, I would be putting these documents  to the witness as they occured.  :  Well, if we have further difficulties of this kind,  I think we must set a time and have the argument, see  what can be done to expedite this.  I take it you  haven't given your friends a notice to admit all these  documents?  E: I gave one notice to admit and they refused. Not  with respect to this document, with respect to other  documents.  :  All right.  E:  Well, now, I want to see if I have a correct  understanding with respect to these trap lines, Mrs.  Johnson.  Is it your understanding that the trap  lines -- and I'm now talking about Stanley's trap 900  1 line.  I shouldn't say trap lines.  2 THE COURT:  I'm sorry to slow us down again, but I don't think  3 you have put in the two documents that --  4 MR. GOLDIE:  No, I haven't.  5 THE COURT:  Are you going to do that?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I was hoping to come back and include a  7 couple more, but perhaps I should take the ones that I  8 presently have and put those in, and that is the  9 application for registration.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  And the handwritten note which the witness has  12 identified.  And may those two be marked as a single  exhibit, my lord?  :  Yes.  They can be Exhibit 25.  (EXHIBIT 25: Application for registration and  handwritten note)  Mrs. Johnson, is it your understanding that Stanley's  trap line is both within and outside the territory  that is marked as part of the House of Antgulilbix  near Swan Lake?  Yes.  Do you know in whose territory the eastern part of  Stanley's trap line falls?  Is it -- do you know the  name of the house?  Do you mean the end of Xsi wis an skit?  Well, let me put it another way.  Is part of Stanley's  trap line in the House of Gyolugyet?  Yes.  And is part of his trap line in the territory of  Ma'uus?  Yeah.  I have seen Ma'uus' name on the map.  And when you say that, do you mean by it that part of  Stanley's trap line is in Ma'uus' territory?  No.  Can you explain further then what you had in mind?  I would call them our neighbours, the Gyolugyet  territory and Ma'uus' territory.  Did you get that answer?  Thank you.  In the south, is  part of Stanley's trap line in Geel's territory?  No.  You say you don't know?  No.  They just go by the boundary.  And your -- your evidence is that Stanley's boundary  of his trap line --  Yes.  -- is the same as the boundary of the house?  13  14 THE  COURT  15  16  17 MR.  GOLDI  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q 901  1 A   Yes.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  All right.  Now —  3 THE COURT:  And when you say the south there, Mr. Goldie, you  4 mean the south end of the northern property or the  5 south property?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm talking about the northern property only.  7 THE COURT:  I see.  The south part of the north.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  9 Q   The south part of the north property.  The -- your  10 house has no trap lines in the territory near Kispiox  11 Village?  12 A   Yes.  There's some trap lines near the village.  13 Q   Yes.  All right.  I'll come to that.  You remember  14 being asked about Charles Johnson?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Did he not have a trap line beside Stanley's?  17 A   No.  18 Q   Did he have a trap line near or partly in your  19 territory?  20 A   No.  He never stepped on our territory.  21 Q   I see.  22 A   Yet all I heard is that he registered part of Xsi wis  23 an skit and that's not right.  He's kind of out of his  24 mind and he's not a great chief and like what we, the  25 Indians, call 'waa 'aa'in.  2 6 THE COURT:  Just a moment.  27 THE WITNESS:  'waa 'aa'in means no chief.  An galstuxw means  28 poor, got nothing.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  Perhaps Miss Steven might give us those  30 words.  31 THE TRANSLATOR:  Can I have her repeat them again?  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  You'll have to repeat it again.  33 THE WITNESS:  An galstuxw.  Needi kuhl wiitisim simoogit.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  35 Q   So Charles Johnson may have registered part of a trap  36 line in your territory, but he was wrong to do so?  37 A   Yeah.  He was wrong.  He's not like his brothers like  38 Dawamuxw and Laan.  They were nice gentlemen.  They  39 were true.  They tell the truth, and they claim they  40 own territory and they know our boundary.  41 Q   All right.  And the -- do you know the location of  42 that trap line that Charles Johnson had that was  43 improperly on your land?  44 A   Yeah.  It was the creek that we call Xsi wis an skit.  45 He nearly took all of that creek.  46 Q   Do you have that?  That's what is known as the Upper  47 Kispiox River? 902  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Thank you.  And did -- to your knowledge, did that  3 trap line that Charles Johnson registered in his name  4 or that he was the owner of, did that extend into  5 Kitwancool territory?  6 A   No.  It's -- it's -- Gyolugyet's territory is next to  7 Xsi wis an skit.  That's where the hunting ground that  8 was given to us for a compensation.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  I see.  10 MR. GRANT:  300 was the name she gave.  11 THE COURT:  Thank you.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  13 Q   Just leaving aside the northern territory, I want now  14 to come to the territory near Kispiox Village.  Is not  15 Alvin Weget the owner of a trap line that is on part  16 of your territory?  17 A   You mean his son Norman Weget?  18 Q   Yes.  I think you're correct.  Alvin Norman Weget?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Has he got a trap line that is on your territory?  21 A   No.  22 Q   No?  23 A   No.  Just -- just like Luuwis Wesley traps on -- on  24 our territory, and his trapping ground is about six  25 mile -- I forget.  Maybe six mile long or mile and a  26 half wide.  My brother Stanley remembers that.  That  27 man used to trap there and he's a wolf, from a wolf  28 tribe in Kispiox.  He comes from the House of Xsim  29 gaakhl.  30 Q   Do you remember his English name?  31 A   Luuwis Wesley.  32 Q   Luuwis?  33 A   Luuwis.  34 Q   Luuwis?  35 A  Wesley, yeah.  And they raised his wife's grandson,  36 and his name is Leonard Wesley, almost the same age as  37 Stanley, my brother.  And Leonard used to go with him  38 to trap there.  39 Q   Do you know -- I'm sorry.  40 A   They didn't tell the reason why he got that piece of  41 ground.  Didn't go on the outside.  Just stay where  42 his traps are.  43 Q   You say they didn't tell why he got that land?  44 A   No.  They didn't tell why he got that small piece of  45 ground.  46 Q   But isn't that small piece of ground that he traps on  47 in your territory? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  903  Yes.  It is?  Yes.  And if he traps there, does he do so with your  permission?  No.  So he shouldn't be there?  My brother sees him trap there and I don't know why  because Xsu wil Masxw is our territory.  That belongs  to the Giskaast.  And those people that you mentioned  are from the Gal doo'o from Luus' house.  Do you -- do you know, or did you know an Amelia  Angus?  Yes.  Did she trap that territory too?  I don't know if she did trap the area.  It would be  okay because she is Uncle George Williams' daughter.  Thank you.  Now, did you know the late Roy A. Wilson  Sr.?  Senior?  Yes?  Yes.  When did he die, to your recollection?  I thought you meant Roy Wilson Sr. that's still alive  today.  I see.  That Roy Wilson is alive then?  Yes.  Does he have a son, Roy Wilson Jr.?  Yes.  All right.  Is -- does Roy Wilson or his son have the  right to trap on your land?  No.  To your knowledge, do they trap on your land?  No.  You're not aware of them being the owner of a  registered trap line that is on your land in part, not  in total?  Oh, do you mean in Wil masxwit?  Yes.  No.  All I know is that the mountain belongs to a  family and the mountain's name is Wil masxwit.  That's  why they call that creek Xsu Wil Masxwit that runs  into Skeena River.  And that's where they got the  mountain goat and groundhogs.  They call it  Antgulilbix trap line.  All right.  Can I leave the trap lines for a minute  and come to the highway that goes through your 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31 MR.  GOLDIE  32  33  34  35  36 THE  COURT:  37 MR.  GOLDIE  38  Q  39  40  ]  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  904  southern territory?  I think it's called the Kispiox  Valley Road?  Oh, yeah.  Is part of that within your territory?  Do you mean the mountain that they call where the moon  shines on?  Well, I'm talking about a road that is paved and goes  from Hazelton across the Bulkley by a bridge?  Yes.  And runs up beside the Skeena to Kispiox Village and  beyond there?  Yes.  Now, does that highway in part run across your  territory?  Yes.  And that -- there has been a road there which people  have used?  Yes.  Since -- for a long time?  Yeah.  Before you were born?  Yes.  And that's a -- a public road in the sense that  anybody using -- can use it; is that right?  Yes, yes.  And is there a power line that runs across part of  your territory?  Yes.  Taking power up to the --  Yes.  Yes.  :  Now, I don't want to go through the same process,  but there is another map which shows rights of way and  instead of putting that to the witness, my lord, I'm  going to defer that until you set a time for the  argument on the motion.  All right.  And I say the same thing with respect to lands which  have been alienated district lots and water rights and  mineral tenures.  But I have a couple of questions to ask you, Mrs.  Johnson.  Do you remember you told his lordship about  the logging --  Yes.  -- that is on your territory?  Yes.  And I think you were asked -- 905  1 A   That's the side of the -- of the mountain.  That's  2 called where the moon shines on.  3 Q   Yes.  Yes.  4 A  And there's a vegetable farm below that too.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  6 THE COURT:  May I see that again?  7 THE WITNESS:  Right on the highway.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  Right.  9 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  I'd like to make sure I know where  10 this -- I'm sorry.  11 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  Where is the mountain where the moon shines?  13 MR. GOLDIE:  That's Andamhl.  14 THE WITNESS:  Andamhl.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  That's the one that your lordship and I had so much  16 trouble with this morning.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  Now —  19 THE COURT:  Well, that's a long way from where the vegetable  20 garden is.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  22 Q   Yes.  I'm going to suggest to the witness that the  23 logging is considerably closer to the highway than the  mountain itself.  Is that right?  No.  It's way up.  And there's the whole side of the  mountain.  I see.  And there's logging going on there now or  recently?  Recently.  Recently.  And who is carrying on the logging there?  I don't know.  Well, do you remember you told Mr. Grant that you and  your family had adopted Mr. Stuart Forsythe.  Do you  remember --  Yes.  -- telling me that?  Yes.  Is Mr. Forsythe a white man?  Yes.  Is he the man who has done some of the logging on that  territory?  I don't know, but he got a farm somewhere.  Close by there?  Yeah.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'm instructed -- and does your lordship  46 still have the map in front of you?  47 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, one of the Kispiox Village?  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A 906  1 MR.  2 THE  3 MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14 MR.  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18 THE  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Yes.  Yes.  The Kispiox Village map.  GOLDIE:  COURT:  GOLDIE:  Q   And if your lordship would look at the southerly  boundary, there is a name Xsikadook,  X-s-i-k-a-d-o-o-k.  A   Xsikadook.  Q   That is your name for a creek called Alipakh Creek, or  have you heard that name?  A  Alipakh Creek is below where the moon shines.  It runs  out where the vegetable farm is.  They cover it  with -- with their garden, but you could still see the  water running out.  GOLDIE:  Well, that -- in what my friend Mr. Grant handed up  is the English name for 321.  But, in any event --  COURT:  GOLDIE:  WITNESS  COURT:  GOLDIE:  Q   Yes  I'm sorry.  What is it?  Is it a creek?  It is a creek, I'm instructed.  It's a small creek.  That's Xsikadook.  A  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  The reason why they call the village there Wilt  galliibax.  That stream, if we understand the evidence correctly,  is in the middle of the territory where Xsikadook is  the boundary; is that right?  Yes.  Past Xsikadook, and there's another smaller  creek runs down, and that's the boundary and the  creek's name is Xsan Max Hlo'o.  All right.  There are two creeks which form the  boundaries?  Yes.  Now, with respect to the southerly one, is the logging  which is taking place --  Yes.  -- on either side of that creek?  Yes.  Yes.  So the part that is on the northern side is in  your territory?  Yes.  Well -- and you're not aware of whether it is Mr.  Forsythe, Mr. Stuart Forsythe, who is the operator of  that logging?  No.  All right.  Thank you.  Now, you have mentioned -- in  your evidence you said the government had sold land to  Mr. Fred Fallensby? 907  1 A   Yes.  Yes.  It's right behind the smoke house, and his  2 fence is right behind the smoke house.  I have seen it  3 when I was small and my Auntie Emily Latz lives there  4 when she was young with her husband, Walter Latz.  5 THE COURT:  I'm going to refer back again to the -- your  6 examination for discovery in April, and I want to  7 refer to questions 198 to 210.  9  10  11  12  13 THE  14 MR.  15 THE  16 MR.  17 THE  18  19  2 0 MR.  21  22 THE  2 3 MR.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  "I am referring you to Exhibit 3."  That is the -- the map that was attached to her -- her  interrogatory, my lord, that has now been marked.  COURT:  Can I have that, please?  GOLDIE:  The page is 42 in the discovery.  COURT:  No.  The map was —  GOLDIE:  It's the draft copy, which I think --  COURT:  It's the one with the — yes.  That is Exhibit 3, I  believe.  Yes.  This is part of the interrogatories  response?  GOLDIE:  Yes.  That's right.  And it's of the southern or  Kispiox Village.  COURT:  That's Exhibit 19 at the trial.  GOLDIE:  Q   Question 198:  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  "I am referring you to Exhibit "3".  you tell me where the ranches and farms  are in that territory, where are they,  that are owned by white men?  Yeah, there was a vegetable farm just  near the highway below the mountain.  Yes.  It is there, not far from the vegetable  farm is, is a smokehouse, this side,  close to Glen Vowell.  Yes.  That's below the same mountain again,  that's the fishing ground, the family's  fishing ground.  Yes.  And there was a white man's farm behind,  right behind this fish -- smokehouse  stands a white man's house and the  elderly man's name -- I have seen him  when I was small, he lives all his  life -- his name, they call him Fred  Can 908  1 Fallensby.  2 Q  Fred Fallensby?  3 A  Um-hum.  4 Q  And is somebody there, a white man living  5 on that land now?  6 A  No, no.  7 Q  Are there white men living in your  8 territory now?  9 A  Yeah, they live on the vegetable farm.  10 Q  Yes.  11 A And what is it that you want in this  12 lawsuit; do you want the white man to go,  13 or do you want money for him being there?  14 A We want, we want the government to pay  15 for all the damages, we won't sell the  16 land.  17 Q  Yes.  18 A  Because we are thinking of those that  19 will come behind us.  20 Q  Yes.  21 A And they will suffer if we do sell the  22 land and we are not going to sell our  23 real inheritance.  24 Q  Yes.  25 A All we want is to, for them to pay for it  26 and move those people -- what would you  27 think if someone stays on your territory?  28 Q  Well, it is not quite clear to me, Mrs.  2 9 Johnson, you say you want the government  30 to pay money --  31 A  Yes.  32 Q  -- for the damage that has been done, and  33 do you also want the white man to move?  34 A  Yes."  35  36  37 Do you remember being asked those questions?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And you gave those answers?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Mr. Fallensby is now dead, is he not?  42 A   I think he's dead long time ago, because he's already  43 an elderly man when I seen him.  44 Q   And you were quite young when you first saw him?  45 A   Yeah.  46 Q   And so he would -- the land on which he lived, if that  47 was his land, would have become his land many years 909  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  ago?  Yes.  And isn't that the same thing with respect to the land  on which the vegetable farm is?  That's -- I think I know it's the same because he  clear part of the land where the vegetable farm is,  but some trees were growing there again.  Yes.  So that it was part of the land that Mr. Fallensby  cleared?  Yes.  That is now the vegetable farm?  Yes.  GOLDIE:  All right.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Grant in —  referred at transcript Volume 13, page 826 beginning  at line 5.  COURT:  I'm sorry.  The page again?  GOLDIE:  Page 826, my lord.  COURT:  Thank you.  GOLDIE:  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q "Okay. Now, I wou  something about the Git  your father died and yo  house on the Kispiox Vi  A   Yeah.  Q   Would that house go to  house, or could it be p  A   Yeah.  Q   Do you understand?  A   Yes.  That's how my gra  Wilfred Gawa.  He gave  land in -- right in the  he builds himself will  And not about a hunting  belongs to the family c  Id like to ask you  ksan law regarding if  ur father had built a  llage.  the members of his  assed on to you?  nd-father is to  him his house and his  village, something  go to his children.  ground, because it  rest."  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Now, if -- that's -- that's how you described how  Yes.  -- your grand-father, who was Daniel Gawa?  Yes.  Gave his house and land directly to his grandson  Wilfred?  Yes.  I want to refer you again to your examination for  discovery, question 249: 910  1  2  3 Q  "Let me ask you one or two questions  4 about that.  You have said in response to  5 question 95 in the responses to your  6 interrogatories that some of the laws of  7 the Gitksan include names, seats in the  8 Feast house, songs, crests passed on  9 through the matriline?  10 A  Yeah.  11 Q  Yes, that is through the mother's line?  12 A  Yeah.  13 Q  Yes.  14 A  Yeah, it's strictly on the mother's  15 line.  16 Q  Right.  So, that means when your father  17 dies his property would go to --  18 A  To his own family.  19 Q  Yes.  20 A And that" —  21  22  23 Now, there's a -- what shows to be an answer.  253,  24 think, is part of the question, my lord.  So the  25 question should be:  26  27 Q  "Yes.  And that would be his, his  28 sister's children?  29 A  Yeah, yeah, nephews.  30 Q  And nieces?  31 A  Yeah.  32 Q  Yes, on his line?  33 A  Yeah.  34 Q  Yes.  35 A  Yeah, yeah.  36 Q  Now, your father died when?  37 A  He died around past sixties, I think,  38 1960.  39 Q  Yes, in 1960?  4 0 A  Yes."  41  42  43 Q   Do you remember being asked those questions and did  44 you give those answers?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Question 279:  47 911  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q   "Yes.  So your grandmother was Edith Gawa  and your grand-father was Daniel Gawa?  A   Yeah, Daniel Gawa is frog tribe.  You just said 279.  Question 295 to 29£  THE COURT: Sorry. You read.  MR. GOLDIE:  Just 279.  THE COURT:  All right.  And the next question?  MR. GOLDIE:  295 to 298.  Q   "Thank you.  Do you remember when your  grand-father Daniel Gawa died?  A   Oh, it's a long time ago.  Q   Yes.  A   Before the 1950's, I think.  Q   Would it be in 1945?  A   I think so.  Q   And he left everything to his wife while she  lived, did he not?  A   Yeah."  Mr. Goldie,  Question 305 to 324.  THE COURT:  I think before I read that long passage,  we'll take the afternoon adjournment.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in Court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability. 912  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER BRIEF RECESS)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord.  I had finished reading questions 259 to  5 298 and I was about to start on questions 305 to 324.  6 THE COURT:  Okay.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  8 Q  And you will recall, Mrs. Johnson, that we were — I  9 am reading the questions and answers that you gave in  10 your examination for discovery.  Question 305:  11  12 "Q  But, in fact, was there not money  13 distributed amongst the children and the  14 grandchildren and the property went to  15 Wilfred; is that not what happened?  16 A  Yeah, they got land in the village and  17 it goes to Wilfred.  18 q  And the children and grandchildren,  19 including you —  20 A   Yeah.  21 q  — got some money?  22 A  Yeah, my grandmother got some, little  23 bit of pension, too, and we got little bit  24 when she died.  25 q  And all that was according to a will  26 that your grandfather signed and left; was  27 it not?  28 A  Yeah, they made a will for Wilfred.  29 q  Well, that was not according to Gitksan  30 law, was it?"  31  32 And then there was some interjections.  Question  33 310.  34  35 "q  a distribution of Daniel Gawa's  36 property.'  37  38 And there is an interjection.  Question 311:  39  40 aQ       to the children and the grandchildren as  41 to the money and the property to Wilfred?  42 A   Oh, he got no money because he was very  43 aged when he died.  44 q   There was —  45 a   He lived a long time.  46 q   But, you got some money?  4"' A   From grandfather. 913  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q  Yes.  2 A  No.  3 Q  Are you sure?  4 A  No.  5 Q  After, after your grandmother died was  6 there not some money; did not some money  7 come to you from —  8 A  Just a little bit, like I said.  9 Q  Yes, just a little bit?  10 A  Yeah, yeah.  11 Q  And a little bit went to —  12 A  To Emily.  13 Q  — Emily and a little bit to ..."  14  15 My Lord that should be Efie, not "FE", as in a  16 Birkingham.  17  18 "Q  A little bit to Efie Wilson?  19 A  Yeah.  20 Q  And to Alice Tait?  21 A  Yeah, and Stanley.  22 Q  Yes, and Stanley.  23 A  Just his — just her grandchildren?  24 Q  Right.  Now, my question to you was that  25 money was not paid in accordance with the  26 Gitksan law, was it?  27 A  You mean we should use it to the Gitksan  28 law?  29 Q  No, I am just speaking about the payment  30 of your money from your grandfather's and  31 your grandmother's estate.  32 A  No, it's so small can't use it for —  33 Q  Yes.  34 A  — any, any feast like."  35  36 Q  You remember being asked those questions and giving  37 those answers?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q  Thank you.  40 Q  is there such a thing as a will in Gitksan law?  41 A  Yes.  42 q  And how is it made?  43 a  If anyone would like to make a will for his family,  44 something that he makes himself, clear the land or —  45 but not about the hunting ground.  46 q  And the will is something that is done according to  47 the white man's law? 914  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A  Yeah.  2 Q  Now, in the example that Mr. Grant put to you with  3 respect to your father. What he left was a little bit  4 of money; is that right?  5 A   No.  6 Q  You don't recall that?  7 A   No.  8 Q  All right.  Was it not divided between you and  9 Stanley, what little there was?  10 A   Yeah.  11 Q  Yes.  I was going to read to you question 273, and  12 I'll do so because I think it accords now with your  13 evidence.  Question 273 to 275.  14  15 Q  Now, I am asking you again, and I would  16 like to you search your recollection, was  17 there not a sum of money that was coming to  18 your father when he died as part of his  19 pension and it was divided between you and  20 Stanley?  21 A  I think it's just a little bit because  22 they got small amount in those days.  23 Q  Yes.  24 A  Yeah.  25 Q  But, it was divided between you and  26 Stanley?  27 A  Divided yeah, even though it's very  28 small."  29  30 A   Yes.  31 Q  And you remember those questions and those answers?  32 A  Yes.  33 Q  Thank you.  34 Mrs. Johnson, there had been some references to the  35 Kitwancool-Gitksan, and when you speak of the Gitksan  36 law —  37 A  Yes.  38 Q  — do you include as Gitksan the Kitwancool people?  39 A  Yes.  40 Q  Is it your evidence that the same Gitksan laws and  41 customs that you have described here are equally  42 applicable to them?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q      There was just a very small point that I noticed in  45 your evidence that you can perhaps clear up for me  46 that caused me to ask you those questions.  In your —  47 the evidence you gave Mr. Grant in the transcript, 915  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Volume 11, at page 697, lines 11 to 31, My Lord.  I  2 don't think I have to read it all, but you were being  3 asked about the customs of young girls when they  4 become women and you had referred to a special kind of  5 small house?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  And Mr. Grant's question was to you at line 11:  8  9 "Q  Now, did your grandmother tell you about  10 these houses?  11 A  Yeah.  12 Q  And what were they used for?  13 A  That's when a young teenager got her  14 first period.  She's not supposed to live  15 among the people.  It's to live by herself  16 in these small houses until the end of the  17 year and she's not supposed to eat fresh  18 fish for a whole year and fresh meat."  19  20 Q  And then there were questions and answers at line 26,  21 you gave this answer:  22  23 "A  Yeah, it — if she does eat the meat  24 that the hunters saw, they said it will  25 bring bad luck to the hunter.  He won't  26 catch anything and it will cause trouble to  27 his eyes. And today the people are still —  28 still doing it.  They didn't allow their  29 girls to eat meat or eat some fresh fish for  30 a whole year."  31  32 Now, I want to be sure that you meant that the  33 young girls were to live in these small houses for a  34 whole year.  35 A  Yes.  36 Q  Do the Kitwancool have the same custom, as far as you  37 are aware?  38 A  Yes.  39 Q  I was under the impression that they required their  40 young girls to live in these small houses for only a  41 short period, 10 days, but that's not your  42 recollection?  43 A  Oh yeah.  But if the woman goes out with the husband  44 to hunt, and she won't live among the hunters for 10  45 days if she got her period, and she won't eat the meat  46 that they just shot, those fresh meet.  47 Q  I'm not sure that I understand it, but have I got this 916  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Gitksan, who  different in  are the  that  same law.  correct, that sometimes the young girls don't live in  the small houses for a full year?  Yeah.  Is that right?  Yeah.  And are the Kitwancool and the  plaintiffs in this action, any  regard?  I believe the  All right.  Yes.  Thank you.  My Lord, I propose, with Your Lordship's  permission, to interrupt my cross-examination at this  point and to request Your Lordship to set down for  argument the motion with respect to the admission of  the trap line map and supporting material, the  rights-of-way map and supporting material, the mineral  tenures mapping and supporting material, the water  rights mapping and supporting material, and the  district lot alienations map and supporting material.  My suggestion is that we might argue that tomorrow  morning, and depending upon Your Lordship's ruling, I  would wish to put some further questions to Mrs.  Johnson arising out of those exhibits.  COURT:  is that convenient, Mr. Rush, Mr. Macaulay?  RUSH:  Well — yes.  COURT:  All right.  MACAULAY: It is convenient for me, My Lord.  COURT:  All right.  Shall we start at 9:30 and do it then?  All right. Are you able to carry on with  witness in the meantime, Mr. Grant or Mr.  I would propose that Mr. Macaulay's  cross-examination —  another  Rush?  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  I'm sorry, I keep forgetting about poor Mr.  Macaulay.  GRANT:  Unless he is waiving —  COURT:  I don't think he probably is.  Are you able to  proceed, Mr. Macaulay?  MACAULAY: Yes, My Lord.  COURT:  I do apologize.  Please carry  GRANT:  Before he does, I gather then  is saying, he has completed his  except he proposes to deal with  Goldie  on.  from what Mr  cross-examination,  this area of maps,  is  MR.  that not right, and not other areas he can deal with  now without this motion?  GOLDIE:  I thought I was quite clear. 917  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 THE COURT:  Yes, I thought you were too.  2 MR. GRANT:  That was my understanding.  I just wanted to make  3 sure.  4 THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Macaulay.  5  6    CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  7  8 Q  Mrs. Johnson, are you a member of the  9 Gitksan-Wet'suwet*en Tribal Council?  10 A  I didn't hear very well.  11 Q  You have heard about the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal  12 Council, have you, you have heard about that?  13 A  Yeah, yeah.  14 Q  Are you a member of that Tribal Council?  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  Do you recall the Tribal Council authorizing the  17 presentation of a petition to this court about fishing  18 rights about four years ago?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  And — perhaps, My Lord, I propose to put a copy of  21 the petition to the witness.  22 Mrs. Johnson, would you look at that petition and  23 tell His Lordship if you recognize that. You have  24 looked at the petition, do you recognize that?  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  And did you, in your capacity as a member of the  27 Tribal Council, authorize that petition to be drawn up  28 and presented?  29 A  Yes.  30 Q  If you will turn to page 5 of the petition, the 5th  31 page, you will see that — see Tsibasaa, Stanley  32 Wilson, is one of the petitioners suing on his own  33 behalf and on behalf of all the members of the House  34 of Tsibasaa.  Do you see that? At the bottom, page 5.  35 A  Yeah.  36 Q  And then if you will turn to page 7.  At the top of  37 the page we find Yal, also known as Wilfred Gawa,  38 suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all of the  39 members of the House of Yal?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  But I don't see your name, either your chiefly name or  42 your English name?  43 A  The reason is I travel a lot with the Ksan dancers, so  44 I am rarely home.  I even — in '77 I even go to  45 Australia to represent the Ksan dancers.  Maybe I was  46 away when this is signed about the Fishery, but I was  47 with the group last summer when they were 918  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Crocs   exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 protesting against the Fishery.  I was with them all  2 summer at the Smoke House.  3 Q  Well, did Tsibasaa and Yal represent your House?  4 A   Yes, they were the same House.  5 Q  And — now, there is no separate House of Tsibasaa, is  6 there?  7 A   No.  8 Q  And there is no separate House of Yal?  9 A  No.  10 Q  And if you will turn to page — it's paragraph number  11 85 and 86 of page 27.  Could you read those  12 paragraphs, and I will ask you some questions about  13 them.  Now, you have read 85 and 86 on page 27?  14 A   Yeah.  15 q  And have you seen any documents dealing with the claim  16 by the Kispiox chiefs for their traditional fishing  17 sites before the Indian Reserves Commissions  18 established between 1875 and 1916?  19 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, that question is pretty broad.  I wonder if  20 my friend could rephrase it.  It is quite a mouthful  21 for him asking it.  I got lost by the end of his  22 question.  23 THE COURT: ' I don't think the question is all that difficult,  24 but it may be a very difficult question to answer, Mr.  25 Macaulay.  26 MR. MACAULAY:  27 q  Did you read any transcripts of proceedings before,  28 for instance, the McKenna-McBride Commission  29 concerning Fisheries?  30 A   Do you mean on this?  31 Q  Concerning the Kispiox chiefs claim for their  32 traditional fishing sites.  33 A   Yes.  34 q  And did you read any letters addressed to Mr.  35 O'Reilly, who was the reserve commissioner at that  36 earlier time concerning the claim for traditional  37 fishing sites?  38 A   Yes.  3Q Q  And is it your position that Mr. O'Reilly and the  40 McKenna-McBride Commission recognized the Kispiox  41 chiefs claims for the fishing sites?  Did they do  42 that?  Did they say yes, we recognize your fishing  43 sites?  44 A   I believe they recognize it because it really belongs  45 to the Indians.  46 q       And the fishing sites you mentioned in your evidence  r when you were giving evidence a few days ago, before, 919  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 in late May?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  You described to the Court where your fishing sites  4 were? Do you remember that?  5 A  Yes.  6 Q  And are all those fishing sites within Indian  7 reserves?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  Now, perhaps —  10 A  Some outside reserve.  The fishing site or last  11 fishing site is below the side of a small mountain  12 and —  13 Q  You say there is one fishing site that's off the  14 reserves?  15 A  Yeah.  16 Q  And which river is it on? Is it on the Kispiox?  17 A  On Skeena River, and the name is Gaakhl An tselda.  18 The road is called Gaakhl An tselda because the trail  19 goes around the mountain, and the fishing sites name  20 is mean Miinhl Antselda.  That's where the Smoke House  21 stands near the Skeena River.  22 Q  Better stop and get that word spelled out, Mrs.  23 Johnson.  24 THE TRANSLATOR: Gaakhl An tselda is number 333 on the —  25 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, 333?  26 THE TRANSLATOR: Yes, on the territories of Antgulilbix.  And  27 Miinhl Antselda is 335.  28 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, could the witness be shown Exhibit 17-9-A.  29 It's the territory of Antgulilbix House, southern  30 territory.  31 THE COURT:  Perhaps this might be a convenient time to mark it  32 as an exhibit.  Any objection? All right, it will be  33 Exhibit 26.  34  35 (EXHIBIT 26 - PETITION)  36  37 MR. MACAULAY:  38 Q  Now, on that Exhibit 17-9-A, which is your southern  39 territory, can you show on that where the fishing site  40 is you just mentioned, the one that's not on the  41 reserve?  42 A  Where is the Skeena River?  43 Q  Well, as I understand it, the Skeena River runs  44 along —  45 MR. GRANT:  That's the Kispiox.  46 MR. MACAULAY: Skeena River runs along here and the Kispiox  47 branches off to this point. 920  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 THE WITNESS:  Oh, yes.  2 MR. GRANT:  There is Kispiox.  3 THE WITNESS:  Yeah. And Skeena River goes up that way and it  4 passes many Smoke Houses until it pass Delgam Uukw's  5 Smoke House too.  And after that it pass Haaxw's Smoke  6 House, then Ts'uuts' Smoke House.  That comes from the  7 House of Gutginuxws. And then it pass Ts'uuts' again  8 and then it comes to below the little mountain.  9 That's where our Smoke House stands.  That's past what  10 the white people call where their farmers are, they  11 call it 4 Mile, and they pass that ground. And there  12 is a lookout on the top of that little mountain, and  13 below that mountain is where the Smoke House stands.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  15 Q  Well, this map doesn't show that part of the Skeena  16 then, is that right?  17 A   No.  18 Q  But it's the Smoke — it's the fishing site near the  19 fishing site at 4 Mile Canyon?  20 A  Yes. Way past 4 Mile.  21 Q  Way past the 4 Mile?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  Have you ever been there?  24 A  Yeah, we used to live there.  25 THE COURT:  You used to live there?  26 THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  27 MR. MACAULAY:  28 Q  Was that before you were married?  29 A  Yes, before and after.  30 THE COURT:  Where was the witness indicating, gentlemen, north  31 of the Kispiox village?  32 MR. MACAULAY: Well, the Kispiox village turns northwest on this  33 map.  34 THE WITNESS:  North of Skeena River.  35 MR. MACAULAY: I'm sorry, the Skeena River.  36 THE COURT:  Well, she was showing on the Skeena, I think.  37 MR. MACAULAY: She was showing on the Skeena.  38 THE COURT:  And the Skeena at this location is flowing south.  39 MR. GRANT:  That's correct.  She was following the Skeena in a  40 northerly direction and she was pointing off towards  41 the — towards where the arrow north is.  4 2 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MR. GRANT:  On 17-9-A.  44 THE COURT:  Towards the northeast?  45 MR. MACAULAY: And says that the site she refers to is not on  46 this map.  47 THE COURT:  Yes. 921  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, My Lord, I am going to show the witness  2 Schedule D to the last exhibit.  That's a map that  3 accompanied that petition.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 MR. MACAULAY: And I have highlighted the Yal and Tsibasaa sites  6 on that map, just for the convenience of the court and  7 the witness.  8 Q  Now, Mrs. Johnson, this is one of the maps or sketches  9 that accompanied this petition, and you have seen that  10 before, haven't you?  11 THE COURT:  Well, while I was marvelling this lady's eyesight,  12 she is able to look at the map we looked at a moment  13 ago without the apparent aid of spectacles or  14 something, but if she can read the printing on this  15 one, she will have super eyes rather than unusual  16 ones.  I can't even read it with my glasses.  Can you  17 read the map, Mrs. Johnson?  18 THE WITNESS:   What.  19 THE COURT:  You can? Have you looked at it?  20 THE WITNESS:  No, the writings are too small.  21 THE COURT:  I agree with you.  22 THE WITNESS:  And — but I know who owns the — another fishing  23 site next to that fishing site we are talking about is  24 Wii elaast.  His white name is William Dick.  25 MR. MACAULAY:  26 Q  Are you referring again to the fishing site beyond 4  27 Mile Canyon?  28 A  Yes, beyond this fishing site that belongs to us.  I  29 didn't see it but we heard the dogs bark, and that's  30 why they leave.  I remember, too, late Solomon Johnson  31 used to live there all his life because the fishing  32 site belongs to his father.  That's kx  Gigii.  33 Q  Now, the fishing sites of Yal.  You gave evidence that  34 Yal had some fishing sites?  35 A   Yes, it's —  36 Q  Could the witness be shown Exhibit 17-9-A again.  37 a  It's this side of — this side the bridge of Hazelton.  38 I didn't see the exact spot but Yal got three fishing  39 sites there.  All I see is his Smoke House.  40 Q  Can you show on this map, Exhibit 17-9-A, where Yal's  41 fishing sites are?  42 A  No.  I told you I didn't see but Wilfred knows it,  43 Wilfred Gawa.  44 Q  And are two fishing sites?  45 A  Three.  46 Q  There are three?  47 A  Yeah. 922  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  4 1  42  43  44  45  46  4^  0  A  Q  A  Q  together?  Are they close  Close, yes.  And —  They said it's close together.  Now, who told you about those fishing sites? Was it  Yal?  Yeah, I have seen the Smoke House.  There were no cars  in the olden days and we have — there is a shortcut,  a little trail that goes from this side bridge and  past Yal's Smoke House  And are those sites on  Yes.  Okay.  Oh, I don  You don't  No.  You don't  Q  A  Q  A  0  A  THE COURT  THE WITNESS:   I don't  reserve.  MACAULAY:  to go into Hazelton.  the Hazelton Indian Reserve?  •t know,  know?  know if it's on the reserve?  know whether it's reserve or outside  MR  THE  MR.  about Tsibasaa's sites, are they — they are  the Skeena?  Q  And how  also on  A   Yes.  Q  And they are beyond Kispiox, are they?  A  Yes, the first one is near Glen Vowell.  Q  And is that on the —  A  Like I said where the farm is, right behind  House.  Q   Is that on the Sikadook reserve or the Glen Vowell  reserve?  A  Glen Vowell reserve.  And not far from that  fishing site, they call this fishing site An  Git wank.  That belongs to the family too.  Q  Let's gets the spelling of that.  the Smoke  is another  Guux Di  TRANSLATOR:  MACAULAY:  329  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Now,  you  The  The one  Oh, no,  turn to  too.  So you can  Yeah.  But  No.  that last fishing site that you talk  find that on the map, Exhibit 17-A?  last fishing site?  you have just mentioned.  it's not far from the vegetable farm.  the road you could see the Smoke House  find it if you drive along there?  about, can  If you  there  you can't point it out on the map, is that it? 923  Mary Johnson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  THE  2  3  THE  4  THE  5  THE  6  7  8  9  MR.  10  THE  11  THE  12  13  MR.  14  15  16  THE  17  THE  18  THE  19  THE  20  THE  21  22  MR.  23  24  THE  25  26  THE  27  28  29  MR.  30  THE  31  32  33  MR.  34  THE  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT:  I'm not sure if the witness means you can see it  today or you could see it when you were young.  WITNESS:  I could see it today.  COURT:  Thank you.  WITNESS:  And there is another fishing site the other side,  Holidays Ranch, and this fishing site is called  Ga'tgits'unhlt'a'ootsip. Wilfred Gawa is looking  after it today.  MACAULAY: Better get the number.  TRANSLATOR: 338.  WITNESS: That's outside reserve too, because it's right on  those farm.  MACAULAY:  Q  It's on a farm?  A  Yes.  COURT:  Holidays Farm?  WITNESS:  Ga'tgits'unhlt'a'ootsip.  COURT:  Pardon me?  WITNESS:  We call it Ga'tgits'unhlt'a'ootsip.  COURT:  You called it Holiday Farm a minute ago, didn't you?  Is that the same thing?  GRANT:  I believe the answer was it was right outside  Holidays Farm.  COURT:  All right.  Is that correct, it's outside Holidays  Farm but near to it?  WITNESS:  Yes, just next to Holidays Farm.  And there is  another farm there that Wilfred says that some people  sleep on it and they stole his fish.  MACAULAY: I see it's almost 4 o'clock, My Lord.  COURT:  I was going to go a little longer, but I'm in  counsel's hands.  And if the witness is tired, we will  adjourn now.  MACAULAY: It strikes me that she is tired.  COURT:  All right.  We'll adjourn then until 9:30 tomorrow  morning.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  SKILL ANDABILIT:  LORI OXLEY  OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.


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