Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Walter Blackwater] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 1, 0001

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 1  S. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1 WALTER BLACKWATER, Sworn:  2  3  4  5MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Blackwater, my name is Mackenzie, and I act  6for the Provincial Government, and I would like to as  7 you some questions today.  8 Before I ask Mr. Blackwater questions, I have three  9 preliminary matters that I want to bring to Mr.  10 Grant's attention on the record.  I just wanted to  11 record, Mr. Grant, that we have requested from you  12 plaintiffs' document 5594, which is an audio tape of  13 Mr. Sterritt's interview with Walter Blackwater. And  14 I understand that the requests were made in December,  15 on July 8th, 1988 and on August 24, 1988. I  16 understand that your position is that that document is  17 privileged, and I just wanted to record our position  18 that if that material is being relied upon by Mr.  19 Sterritt in preparing his report and preparing for his  20 evidence, then it's our view that it cannot be  21 privileged.  22 MR. GRANT: Did you receive a response from Mr. Rush with  23 respect to this request?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, we haven't.  25 MR. GRANT: Okay. Well, I'll put on the record the situation  26 that occurred. I received your letter of August 24th,  27 which refers to this request of July 8th, 1988 and  28 also referred to other documents referred to in the  2 9 interrogatory of David Blackwater and William  30 Blackwater. By letter of August 26th, 1988 I  31 delivered a response relating to all of those other  32 requests, and I stated -- and I quote from my letter  33 to Mr. Plant:  34  35 "I apologize for the delay in responding to  36 your letter of May 16th, 1988 regarding the  37 interrogatory of David Blackwater and  38 William Blackwater.  3 9 I had understood that this matter was being  40 dealt with by one of the other lawyers."  41  42 Meaning one of the other lawyers of the plaintiff.  43  44 "And it was not until the most recent  45 letter of Thora Sigurdson of August 24th  46 that I realized that this matter had not  47 been dealt with subsequent to your letter 2  S. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1 of June 8th."  2  3 I then go on to inform with respect to the documents  relating to the interrogatories.  5 I'll state for the record that with respect to  6 document 55 94, upon receipt of the August 24th letter  7 I requested a copy of that audio tape so that could be  8 reviewed by myself once again, and determine whether  9 it is subject to a claim for privilege --or review  10 the position of whether it's subject to a claim for  11 privilege. I determined at that time on August 24th  12 or 25th -- no, it would have been the 25th or the  13 26th. The letter was FAXed to me on the 24th -- that  14 that tape was in Vancouver at our library resource  15 centre in Vancouver.  I then left instructions for  16 that tape to be forwarded directly to Mr. Rush's  17 office, for Mr. Rush or Mr. Adams to review it.  18 With respect to my letter of August 26th which I  19 FAXed Mr. Plant in response to Thora Sigurdson's  20 letter of August 24th, I received no other --no  21 follow-up response until this morning. Although I  22 have been in these cross-examinations continuously  23 since Monday, I think that's August 29th with counsel  24 for the Province, including Mr. Mackenzie, Ms.  25 Sigurdson and Mr. Goldie at different times, none of  26 the counsel for the Province has referred again to the  27 audio tape 5594.  I was therefore under the impression  28 until just this moment that the tape had been  2 9 delivered to Mr. Rush's office. Because of my  30 schedule on these cross-examinations, I have not had  31 an opportunity to speak with Mr. Rush about each and  32 every sundry matter arising in the case this week. I  33 had assumed that the tape had been delivered to his  34 office, that he or Mr. Adams had reviewed the tape and  35 that a copy of the tape had been delivered, that the  36 claim for privilege had been determined to be waived.  37 So I -- this takes me much by surprise.  38 I just want to say for the record that last night at  3 9 six o'clock or thereabouts when we finished Mr.  40 Morrison's cross-examination, we did discuss our  41 revised schedule. Counsel for the Province and Canada  42 indicated they needed this morning to prepare, if we  43 were going to do Walter Blackwater this afternoon, and  44 if I had been informed last night about this audio  45 tape, I would have been able, between last night and  46 now, two o'clock this afternoon, to contact Mr. Rush's  47 office and determine what had happened. 3  S. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1 So I understand from what you're saying -- I don't  2 have all the correspondence, but I am operating on the  3 assumption, from what you're saying, that on the basis  4 of the initial request, document 5594, privilege was  5 claimed. I understood from the August 24th letter  6 that this request is repeated, and that we respect  7 that repetition of the request and we were reviewing  8 that. It was not possible for me, after receipt of  9 the August 24th letter, to get my hands on the audio  10 tape to review it myself. I arranged for other  11 counsel to do it.  12 I was under no impression until right now that  13 that -- what I had anticipated had happened had not  14 occurred. I have not had a chance to review the  15 copies of correspondence to Mr. Rush's office, to the  16 Provincial defendants that have been delivered to my  17 office this week. I have been operating on the  18 assumption that that matter had been attended to.  19 So at this point I am not in a position to either  20 waive privilege or advise you. But I want all of this  21 set out on the record, because, you know, it would  22 make things -- I had -- I had all morning to contact  23 Mr. Rush if I had known that there was any problem  24 about this.  25 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, perhaps when we have a break you might be  26 kind enough to check with Vancouver, and maybe the  27 problem can be resolved that way.  28 MR. GRANT: Well, I just would like you to - - have you checked  29 with your office as to whether this matter has been  30 delivered as of today?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  I understand we have, yes.  32 The other point I wanted to raise you already  33 mentioned, and you did respond to our letter of May 16  34 relating to question 63 on the interrogatories of  35 David Blackwater and William Blackwater. And in your  36 letter of August 26th to which you referred, you  37 attached the letter dated January 1908. There is a  38 reference in the interrogatories, number 63, to feast  3 9 books, and you advised us that they cannot be located  40 and they are not available.  41 MR. GRANT: That's conjunctive "and". They are not available  42 because they cannot be located.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I just confirm that that was interrogatory  44 number 63 and interrogatories of William Blackwater  45 and David Blackwater. I just have a copy of that  46 interrogatory relating to those two matters. I am  47 handing to Mr. Grant, and I am going to ask if he has 4  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 any objections to me filing the affidavit of David  2 Blackwater with -- dated January 29, 1987 with  3 interrogatory 62 and 63, and interrogatory -- the  4 affidavit of William Blackwater dated February 15,  5 1987, the interrogatory 62 and 63.  6 MR. GRANT: As I indicated before we went on the record, to  7 avoid a whole bunch of time, delays and everything  8 else, I had indicated already during these  9 cross-examinations that I object to having these  10 cross-examinations being used to file exhibits which  11 are not being directed to the witness. Mr.  12 Blackwater -- as I indicated, Mr. Blackwater has been  13 attending while we have been going through this  14 discussion, has had to take time off of work, and we  15 are here to have his cross-examination completed. Of  16 course ultimately you will be able to rely on the  17 rules as to whether these documents, any other  18 documents can be filed as exhibits at the trial.  19 That's not what we are here for.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  21  22   CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  23  24 Q  Mr. Blackwater, I am handing to you a photocopy of a  25 letter dated January, 1908.  26 MR. GRANT:  I think it's January 7th.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q  January 7th, 1908. Is that a copy of a letter which  2 9    you have in your possession?  30 A  Bill's got one copy like this.  31 Q  Is that Bill Blackwater?  32 A  Yes.  33 Q  Is that your brother William Blackwater?  34 A  Yes. Yes, that's my brother.  35 Q  Now, William Blackwater answered some interrogatories  36 on February 15, 1987. Were you aware of that?  37 A  He didn't tell me about it.  38 Q  Does your chief -- you are chief in the House of  3 9    Niist, aren't you?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  And does your House rely on this letter I have before  42 you as proof of your ownership of your territories?  43 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. Just don't translate that for a  44 second. Number 62. You asked if that letter is  45 relied on by his House as proof of ownership, but your  46 question 62, the question which David Blackwater was  47 asked, was does your House possess any documentary 5  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 evidence of ownership of this territory. And I think  2 that given this witness may or may not have seen this,  3 that you should - - and the answer was that there are  4 documents, and this was a document of evidence of  5 ownership of the territory. I think you should frame  6 it up in that way, as you did with Mr. -- as did you  7 with David Blackwater.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q  Is this letter in front of you documentary evidence of  10 your House's ownership of your territory?  11 A  Yes.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  I would request that that letter be marked as  13 the first exhibit. And I'll describe that letter.  14 It's a letter apparently from Mr. Loring, the Indian  15 Agent, to whom it may concern, dated January 7, 1908.  16  17 (EXHIBIT NO. 1 - LETTER DATED JANUARY 7,  18 1908 FROM MR. LORING - INDIAN AGENT)  19  20 MR. GRANT:  I have no objection.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q  Did your House also have feast books which were  23 documentary evidence of ownership of your territory?  24 A  No.  25 Q  Your brother David Blackwater said that the House has  26 feast books which are documentary evidence of  27 ownership of the territory. Do you know whether David  28 has those books?  2 9 A  What -- I don't know if David has this, but I think  30 you are talking about what my mother used to have.  31 Every time we would have a feast she would put this in  32 her trunk, or they call it An Luu Toost in our  33 language. She would put these things, and after my  34 mother died, then I never seen these any more.  I  35 haven't seen them.  I never asked anybody. Maybe they  36 are still around. I don't know. And it's not only  37 Niist that does that, it's the whole -- the different  38 Houses that keep these records. And these records in  3 9    our language are known as Hanii Hawal.  40 Q  When did your mother die?  41 A  It's about 15 years ago. I'm not sure. I forgotten  42 how long it was.  43 Q  Do you know where the trunk is in which your mother  44 kept those feast books?  45 A  It's still there. There is four trunks there that we  46 have never opened, and the only person that goes in  47 there once in awhile is my sister Charlotte, and she 6  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 never mentions anything to me.  2 Q  Can you tell me where that trunk is, where those four  3 trunks are?  4 A  In her own house in Kispiox.  5 Q  Is Charlotte your sister?  6 A  Yes, that's what he said, my sister Charlotte.  7 Q  And what is Charlotte's name now?  8 A  McCarthy.  9 Q  You haven't seen the feast books since your mother  10 died, is that correct?  11 A  No, I haven't.  12 Q  Do you know if David has seen the feast books since  13 your mother died?  14 A  No.  15 Q  Do you know if William or Bill has seen the feast  16 books since your mother died?  17 A  No.  18 Q  Has Charlotte ever told you what are the contents of  19 the trunks?  20 A  I don't know if she did or not, but she is the only  21 one that goes into that house.  22 Q  Whose house is that?  23 A  It's my mother's own house.  It's empty now. There is  24 nobody living in there.  25 Q  Did you see your mother put the feast books in the  26 trunks?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  I think these are important documents for your  29 territories. I must ask you to search the trunks and  30 provide the feast books, if they are in there, to your  31 counsel.  32 MR. GRANT: He doesn't have to answer anything. That's not a  33 question. It's just a request to -- I will  34 investigate this.  35  36        (ADDITIONAL INFORMATION REQUESTED)  37  38   THE WITNESS: I will go ask my sister Charlotte about these  3 9    papers, and I will ask her to open the house, and we  40 will look for it. The only thing it contains, it  41 contains the expenses of the feast. That's what it  42 used to have on it. There was no mention of our  43 territory on those papers.  It is just the expenses  44 that were spent during the feast, and no mention of  45 our territory.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q  Are those records kept in the Gitksan language or the 7  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 English language?  2 MR. GRANT: Well, if they are numbers, it will be debatable. It  3 may be in either language. Numbers are in  4 international, unless one goes to the Far East.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q  Or in either language.  7 A  English.  8 Q  You spoke about asking your sister. Is there a reason  9 in your family why you cannot look in those trunks?  10 A  One of the reasons for this is that when my mother  11 first passed on Charlotte was in charge of the  12 material things, the clothing and the things that were  13 left behind by my mother. She knew where everything  14 was, and she took these things out of the house to use  15 as payments in the Feast House, and she knows where  16 she took it from and where the other things are. I do  17 go in that House, but I don't touch anything in there.  18 It's up to Charlotte, because she was in charge of  19 that.  20 Q  Why did your mother keep those feast books?  21 A  The reason for this is they would -- they will keep  22 track of the expenses of each person throughout the  23 feasts, and they will know who is always working hard  24 and who is always giving in donations for expenses.  25 When it's time for a certain House to pick out  26 people for the Indian names -- this goes way back in  27 the ancient times. When it's time for a certain House  28 to pick out persons for --to get a chief's name, then  2 9 what they do is they know whose always working in the  30 Feast House, who knows what is going on. They look  31 through these books and they see how much they have  32 worked, how many expense they have put out, and then  33 they will -- they have a meeting and they make up  34 their minds who is going to get the name.  35 In the ancient times they did not write anything  36 down. It has just been recently that they've done  37 this. In the very ancient times what they did was  38 they would -- the chiefs would talk and they would  3 9 just put all the -- pay the expenses. That's their --  40 and the chiefs would all have a meeting together.  41 They have certain seating places for different chiefs,  42 and nobody is supposed to touch these seating places  43 except that certain chief.  And where Niist used to  44 sit was in the centre. That's where Niist used to sit  45 in. Now they use the tables today, and this is why  46 Niist is sitting at the end of the table. And Niist  47 sits at the end of the table on the right side past 8  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Baskyelaxhaa.  2 MR. GRANT: Just to clarify the record, that was on the right  3 side of Niist?  4 THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q  Who sits on Niist's left side?  7 MR. GRANT:  Today?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q  Yes.  10 A  Gaiyimlaxhaa. It was Charles Stevens before.  It is  11 Wallace Johnson today.  12 Q  And Baskyelaxhaa is your brother, William Blackwater?  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  Speaking about the feast books, when did your House  15 members start keeping those books?  16 A  It's not too long ago. I think she started looking  17 after these books when my grandmother died.  18 Q  What was your grandmother's name?  19 A  Esther Stevens.  20 Q  When did your grandmother die?  21 A  That's a long time ago. That Niist building, I really  22 like it. If you go to Kispiox now, there is a big  23 building. As you go in there, there is a big building  24 on the hill there. That is her house, and it's  25 falling down now.  26 Q  She died in the 1940's?  27 A  Maybe . I don' t know.  28 Q  Did your grandmother Esther keep written feast books  29 as well?  30 A  This is what I said before, that there was nothing  31 written down before.  32 Q  So your mother was the first person to start writing  33 these things down?  34 A  Yes, they started writing about that time.  35 Q  In addition to this letter, are there any other  36 documents that -- which are evidence of ownership of  37 your territories?  38 MR. GRANT: Of the Niist territories?  3 9   MR. MACKENZIE:  40 Q  Of the Niist territories.  41 A  I'll name a white man that used to have this copy was  42 Tom Sampson, and I don't even know where it is today.  43 Q  Does the House of Niist have any other documents?  44 A  I told you that its just been recently that things  45 were written down.  In the olden days what they used  46 to do is they used to tell everything in the Feast  47 House, and now that's what happened. They mention 9  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 everything in the Feast House, and they didn't write  2 it down. It's just been recently that these things  3 are written down.  4 Q  Thank you. And what -- why does Tom Sampson perhaps  5 have a copy of this letter?  6 A  No, it's not --it has nothing to do -- it's another  7 one that the Indian Department made out that Tom  8 Sampson had.  9 Q  And who was Tom Sampson?  10 A  Gibeumget from Kispiox.  11 Q  And he was a member of the House of Niist?  12 THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me, I want to clear something up.  I  13 have made a mistake.  14 MR. GRANT: Can you just go off the record.  15 THE INTERPRETER: I think I mentioned a --  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well --  17 MR. GRANT: No. No, but I just want to -- I don't mind if she  18 repeats it on the record.  19 THE INTERPRETER: It's just to clarify I made a mistake. I said  20 white man named Thomas Sampson.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Who made the mistake? You?  22 THE INTERPRETER: I did. And what he meant is the white man made  23 these papers and Tom Sampson had one. That's all I  24 wanted to clear up.  25  26 (OFF THE RECORD)  27  28 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you, Alice -- Mrs. Sampson. That's the  29 reason why I asked those questions. So thanks for  30 mentioning that.  31 (OFF THE RECORD)  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  That was actually one of the three items,  33 preliminary items that I had before I asked those  34 questions.  35 MR. GRANT: What, the last series of questions or the water?  36 MR. MACKENZIE: That's right. The third subject I wanted to  37 record is that on May 18, 1988 we delivered to the  38 counsel for the plaintiffs a Notice to Admit relating  3 9 to a proposed testimony of David Blackwater, and that  40 Notice to Admit had 60 documents attached to it, or  41 copies of 60 documents. I understand that the counsel  42 for the plaintiffs have declined to admit any of those  43 documents. On August 17 Ms. Sigurdson requested  44 reconsideration of that plaintiffs' response, and we  45 have had no response to date. I wonder if Mr. Grant  46 might have had an opportunity to consider that, and  47 whether any of those documents might now be admitted. 10  Proceedings  1 MR. GRANT: Do you have the the Notice of Admit, and do you have  2 the August 17th letter?  3 MR. MACKENZIE: Just for Mr. Blackwater's benefit, I have asked  4 Mr. Grant a question, and he's considering that now,  5 and so that's what the procedure is.  6 MR. GRANT: Just to summarize the request so Mr. Blackwater  7 understands it. When it was considered that David  8 Blackwater, your brother, would be a witness, the  9 Province tendered 60 documents to us, and they are  10 asking whether or not we are prepared to admit those  11 documents now.  It will just take me a moment to do  12 this.  13 (OFF THE RECORD)  14 MR. GRANT: This, I hope, doesn't continue on these  15 cross-examinations. As I said earlier, we agreed last  16 night to start at 1:00 o'clock, and it was delayed  17 because of the translator's time -- had commitments,  18 and we couldn't have another translator in 'til 1:30.  19 I was in my office all morning this morning. The  20 telephone is a miraculous piece of equipment that can  21 be used. If I had known that this was going to be one  22 of the preliminary matters, once again I could have  23 contacted Mr. Murray Adams or his office to whom the  24 August 17th, 1988 letter was directed, and determined  25 whether he had considered and re-reviewed the May 18th  26 Notice to Admit, in light of the request of Thora  27 Sigurdson.  28 I concede that a copy of this letter was delivered  2 9 to me.  I have been involved in the preparation, as  30 per the schedule of 9 witnesses for this week. To  31 come in at 10 to 3, after an hour and-a-half, when Mr.  32 Blackwater has taken a day off, when everybody knew on  33 Monday morning that Mr. Blackwater was going ahead  34 this week, and that we have all been in the same room,  35 and to say at this stage of the game what is your  36 position on the Notice to Admit relating to 60  37 documents, I am sorry, I can't reply to that. Because  38 once again I was not given any notice in advance. And  39 if this is the way that counsel for the Province feels  40 is the best way to prosecute the case, with great  41 respect, I disagree -- for them to defend the case, it  42 is just crazy, because we are all trying to get  43 through these witnesses.  44 And last night -- if I even had been told there is  45 an August 17th letter from Thora on this May 18th  46 Notice to Admit, would you please let us know your  47 position now or in the morning or when we start in the 11  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 afternoon, I could have had a chance to review it.  2 We have several counsel. I am up in the north doing  3 these and residing here. Mr. Adams is involved in  4 this and in other matters. Mr. Rush is involved in  5 this case and other matters, as is counsel for the  6 Province, all counsel for the Province other than, I  7 believe, Mr. Mackenzie, who I believe may be on this  8 case full time. And to sit and then to say, you know,  9 an hour into Mr. Blackwater's cross-examination, what  10 about this Notice to Admit and 60 documents, I think  11 is just absurd, I will say an absurd way to proceed.  12 Because I -- you know, I can't -- you know, I  13 suggest -- I strongly urge that a little bit of  14 conversation off the record, a little bit of a phone  15 call.  16 If this came as a surprise to Mr. Mackenzie last  17 night, he didn't realize he was going to deal with it,  18 I'm sure some time this morning it came to his  19 attention.  I was in my office all morning this  20 morning. I could have made a few phone calls,  21 determined what the situation was. I could have spent  22 this morning looking at these documents, if Mr. Adams  23 hadn't already reviewed them once again and considered  24 our position.  25 So I haven't reviewed them. I have had no chance to  26 talk to other counsel about them, that August 17th  27 letter, and I have no response. And I think that -- I  28 urge counsel not to do this any more. It's an entire  29 waste of time.  I just think -- I think once in awhile  30 a phone call or a conversation goes a long, long way.  31 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, that completes my preliminary matters.  32 MR. GRANT:  I note for the record that that's --we have been in  33 the examination now for about an hour.  34 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, moving along very well. Thank you.  35 MR. GRANT:  Good.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q  Now, Mr. Blackwater, I am placing before you a copy of  38 an affidavit dated May 13 or sworn May 13, 1988. Is  3 9 that your signature on page 17?  40 A  Yes, it's my signature.  41 Q  That affidavit has been marked as Exhibit 605 in these  42 proceedings. Was that affidavit read to you in the  43 Gitksan language?  44 MR. MACKENZIE: Just on the record, while the interpretation is  45 going on --  46 THE INTERPRETER: What are you saying? Are you trying to say --  47 MR. MACKENZIE: Just recording that there is a conversation -- 12  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 discussion between Mrs. Sampson and Mr. Blackwater  2 while it's being translated.  3 THE INTERPRETER: I am trying to pronounce what he is saying.  4 A  This is a lake that -- there is a creek going the  5 other way and a creek going on this side. Neil is the  6 one that read this to me.  7 Q  Did Neil --is that Neil Sterritt?  8 A  Yes, this is Neil.  9 Q  And did Neil Sterritt read it to you in the English  10 language?  11 A  He used some Gitksan.  12 Q  Did he read it to you in Gitksan and in English?  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  Was the lawyer present when Neil read it to you?  15 A  Yes, there was a lawyer there, but it wasn't him.  16 Q  You are pointing to Mr. Peter Grant?  17 A  Peter.  18 Q  And on that occasion when did you sign your name?  19 Maybe he didn't understand the question.  20 THE INTERPRETER:  He did understand it, but he said "I am not  21 too sure what date it was."  22 Q  I mean on that day, when during the course of the  23 explanation did he sign his name.  24 A  Yes, it was after -- it was that day when I signed my  2 5    name.  26 Q  And was it -- you signed your name on that day, but  27 when during that meeting did you sign your name?  28 MR. GRANT: Well, in relation to what? I mean --  2 9   MR. MACKENZIE:  In relation to the meeting with Mr. Sterritt and  30 the lawyer.  31 THE INTERPRETER: Could you say that again please.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  33 MR. GRANT: Well -- maybe let him rephrase it.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q  You say that Neil read the document to you in English  36 and Gitksan. When did you sign the document?  37 A  I - - we went over --we went over this until I was --  38 it was quite clear to me. We kept going over 'til it  3 9    was quite clear to me, after it was clear to me. And  40 I signed this just before I went home, when everything  41 was clear to me.  42 Q  Did Neil have a map there when he was explaining the  43 affidavit to you, to show you on the map?  44 A  He had a map, but I never -- I don't even know  45 anything about a map, because I never went to school.  46 I never took schooling.  47 Q  When you signed this affidavit you didn't refer to a 13  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 map at the time?  2 A  What I told you, I don't understand the map. Even if  3 you showed me a map now, I won't understand it.  4 Q  Do you have any maps at home?  5 MR. GRANT:  Of what?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q  Do you have any maps at all at home?  8 A  Even if -- why should I look after a map if I don't  9 understand it? Even if there is a map at home, it  10 would be no use for me.  11 Q  Have you ever seen a map of your trapline?  12 MR. GRANT: Registered trapline?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q  Registered trapline.  15 A  There probably is one around, but I don't really use  16 the map. I know where the place is.  I know where the  17 lines are. But if you going to use a map, then I'll  18 show you if you want me to -- I'll show you where my  19 territory is, because I know where it is.  20 Q  Can you show me where your territory is on a map?  21 A  I can't read a map, but if I tell you the names you  22 could use the map yourself. I could tell you the  23 names and then you will know.  24 Q  Do you know the English names of some of the creeks  25 and rivers in your territory?  26 A  Yes, some of them.  27 Q  When you refer to your territory, are you speaking  28 about the territory of the House of Niist?  2 9   MR. GRANT: Well, you referred to his territory.  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG: That means the same thing --  31 MR. GRANT: Just a moment, Ms. Koenigsberg. You are the one  32 that said "your territory". I think you should define  33 what you mean to him.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q  When I say your territory, do you understand that to  36 mean the territory of the House of Niist?  37 A  Yes, I know that.  38 Q  And how many territories does the House of Niist have?  3 9 A  It is a very vast territory, and I know every place  40 and names of the territory, Niist territory. This is  41 one of the reasons I did not attend school. I am not  42 an educated man because I have spent most of my life  43 on this territory.  44 Q  Does the House of Niist have more than one separate  45 territory?  46 A  The territory I will be talking about is the territory  47 that's in here, on this paper here. 14  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT: Referring to Exhibit 605.  2 THE WITNESS: And this is the only territory that I know of, the  3 territory that I mention in here.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q  Referring to the affidavit?  6 A  Niist territory.  7 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 605.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q  Does the House of Niist have territory at Xsi Luu Wit  10 Wiidit?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  Does the House of Niist have territory at Maxhla An  13 Tsenden?  14 THE INTERPRETER: I don't think it's spelled right here. How do  15 you say it?  16 MR. STERRITT: Okay. Maxhla An Tsenden is what he says, and also  17 Dam Tsinihl Denden, Xsi Tsinihl Denden is also another  18 way.  19 THE WITNESS: I am going to explain it to you. Okay. This is  20 what he said. There is a lake, and down here on this  21 side there is a creek from the lake that goes into the  22 Skeena, and then on the other side of the lake there  23 is a creek that goes into the Nass River, and the  24 reason why they -- it's called Maxhla Nihl Tsenden is  25 because there is two creeks coming from both ends, and  26 Maxhla means over, and that's one going to the Skeena  27 and one going to the Nass, and that is why it's called  28 Maxhla Nihl Tsenden.  29 Q  I understand. Mr. Sterritt and I have been there.  30 And can you translate that to Mr. Blackwater.  31 MR. GRANT: With Mr. Blackwater's brother.  32 MR. MACKENZIE: With David Blackwater.  33 THE INTERPRETER: And David.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q  Is that territory in the House of Niist?  36 A  Yes, it belongs to Niist, but he gave the  37 responsibilities to Gibenumget to look after the  38 territory. Niist has a vast territory here, the two  39 that was mentioned. It's a vast area, but they are  40 different people that hold -- that are responsible for  41 different parts of the territory in the House of  42 Niist.  43 Q  And who holds -- sorry.  44 A  That territory belongs to our House, Niist House, and  45 if -- whatever you are asking me, if you want to -- if  46 you want to use a map, it's all right for you to use a  47 map, but for me I can't read what's on a map. But I 15  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 just know the names of the creeks and the names of --  2 well, where the territory is.  I could give you that  3 information.  4 Q  Who has the name Gibeumget today?  5 A  My younger brother Johnny.  6 Q  Does Baskyelaxhaa have a separate House from the House  7 of Niist?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  Does Baskyelaxhaa have separate territories from the  10 House of Niist?  11 MR. GRANT: From the territories of Niist?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  13 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  14 Q  Is Maxhla Nihl Tsenden a territory of Baskyelaxhaa?  15 A  I think it would be clear if I started telling what  16 happen before time -- before this, about the way  17 Baskyelaxha went, and there will be an understanding  18 if I start telling things that happened with  19 Baskyelaxhaa.  20 Q  I would like to hear that, but could he answer that  21 question first before he tells me about Baskyelaxhaa.  22 A  This is what he is saying. He would rather tell you  23 first and then answer that question.  24 Q  Fine, thank you.  25 A  Baskyelaxhaa has a vast territory. I'll start from  26 the Skeena.  27 Q  Are you going to tell me the boundaries of  28 Baskyelaxhaa's territory?  29 A  If you want to hear, I will tell you, but I was just  30 going to talk about the river.  31 Q  Thank you. Yes, I would like to hear that.  32 A  There is -- okay. There is a creek that comes from  33 the mountain Bagaiyt Xsiisigit. This creek is known  34 as Xsi Bagaiyt Xsiisigit.  35 MR. GRANT: Number 4 on page 15, paragraph 49 of Exhibit 605.  36 Go ahead Alice.  37 THE WITNESS:  And there is another one that goes into the Xsi  38 Txemsem, which is the Nass River.  3 9   MR. GRANT: Number 2 under rivers and creeks, paragraph 4 9 on  40 page 15 of Exhibit 605.  41 THE INTERPRETER: The creek that goes down the Xsi Txemsem is  42 Xsi Galliixawit.  43 MR. GRANT: Number 6 under rivers and creeks, paragraph 49,  44 Exhibit 605.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes. Tell him I know that one.  46 MR. GRANT:  Let him continue.  47 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, I am telling him I understand what he is 16  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 saying, Mr. Grant.  2 MR. GRANT: I know what you are telling him. I would like him  3 to be able to finish his answer.  4 MR. MACKENZIE: I would like him to his answer also.  5 MR. GRANT: Just remain silent.  6 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me. It is my cross-examination.  7 *   A  This is Baskyelaxhaa holds this territory. Maxhla  8 Nihl Tsenden*, Baskyelaxhaa has -- this territory is  9 quite vast. I only mention the mountain and the  10 lakes -- the creeks there just to point out that it  11 belongs to Baskyelaxhaa, but it's a vast area. And  12 now I will go to Niist's territory. There is a  13 mountain there that belongs to Baskyelaxhaa also.  14 It's known as Luu Lax Loobit, which I forgot to  15 mention.  16 MR. GRANT:  And that's on page seven of the affidavit,  17 paragraph 21, number 7 under rivers and creeks. Is he  18 referring to a mountain? That's a creek.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's right.  20 MR. GRANT: So for the purposes of spelling, I think it's all of  21 that reference he made, except for the "xsi" at the  22 beginning.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  24 Q  Where is Luu Lax Loobit?  25 A  It's right close to Maxhla Nihl Tsenden.  26 Q  When you are going to the Nass River, which side, the  27 right side or left side of the trail?  28 A  There are a lot of trails there. There are a lot of  29 trails. There is one that is known at Xsi Luu  30 Duutswit. That goes up and then down to Maxhla Nihl  31 Tsenden. There are a lot of trails there in -- this  32 is why I said there were a lot of trails.  33 Q  When you were standing at the lake at Maxhla Nihl  34 Tsenden facing the Nass, which side is the Luu Lax  35 Loobit on?  36 A  It's on my right-hand side.  37 Q  So that would be to the north of you, is that correct?  38 A  Yes.  3 9 Q  And then you would be facing the northwest to the Nass  40 River, is that correct?  41 A  If you stand near that Maxhla Nihl Tsenden there, you  42 you can see that mountain, Luu Lax Loobit.  It's a big  43 mountain. And the creek that runs down from there  44 goes towards the Nass.  45 Q  And when you are standing there at Maxhla Nihl  46 Tsenden, you are standing in Baskyelaxhaa's territory?  47 A  Yes. 17  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  Do you know the English name for Maxhla Nihl Tsenden?  2 A  Canyon Lake. And below that is the Canyon Creek.  3 Q  The Canyon Creek flows into the Skeena River?  4 A  Yes. No, he understood what you said.  5 MR. GRANT: He understood Skeena River when you said that.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q  I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about your  8 personal history, Mr. Blackwater. Can you tell me  9 what your employment has been over the years?  10 A  I have been working in Rupert for about 36 years.  11 Q  Are you still working there?  12 A  No, it's closed now.  13 Q  What work were you doing there in Rupert?  14 A  Retort man.  I don't know how we say it in our  15 language, but I'm the one in charge of cooking the  16 fish.  17 Q  Who were you working for down there in Rupert?  18 A  Cassiar Cannery. Its been closed for a few years now  19 and the houses are all down. 1983. Its been closed  20 since 1983.  21 Q  Did you have -- what did you do before you started  22 working at Cassiar Canneries?  23 A  I was trapping on the territory. We were -- I was  24 trapping on the territory we are talking about now.  25 That's where I was.  26 Q  What have you been doing since 1983?  27 A  I haven't been working, but I've -- its been a year  28 now since I started working for our village in  2 9    Kispiox.  30 Q  And do you live in Kispiox now?  31 A  Yes, I have got a house there.  32 Q  How long have you lived in your house in Kispiox?  33 A  I haven't been -- its been there for a number of  34 years, but I haven't been living there, because, as I  35 told you, I was working down Rupert all these years,  36 and it's only been since 1984 that I've moved back  37 there.  38 Q  When was -- did you --do you own any property outside  3 9    the reserve?  40 A  No.  41 Q  When you lived in Prince Rupert did you get up, back  42 up to Kispiox each year?  43 A  I used to do that when my mother was still alive, but  44 after she passed on, then I would just make it -- I  45 would go home once a year.  46 Q  Now, when did you first go out on the territories of  47 the House of Niist? 18  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  When my mother was still alive what I used to do is I  2 used to come home, and then I would go onto the  3 territory of Niist.  4 Q  And did you go to the territory northwest of the Nass  5 River?  6 A  Yes, I was there.  7 Q  When did you first go on that -- sorry, that  8 territory, the Xsi Luu WitWiidit territory?  9 A  Well, I said that when I came from the -- I just told  10 you when I went there, and this territory belongs to  11 Niist, and that's where I went.  12 Q  When was the first time that you went over to that  13 territory?  14 THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me, what do you mean the first time?  15 Do you mean --  16 Q  In his life.  17 THE INTERPRETER: In his life, or do you mean after --  18 Q  In his life.  19 A  Okay. I'm not going to take any short cuts here.  I  20 will tell you that I was born on this territory at Dam  21 Duutsxwhl Ax, and this is where I grew up at.  22 Q  And is the English name for that place Damdochax?  23 THE INTERPRETER: What is it?  24 Q  Is the English name for that Damdochax,  25 D-a-m-d-o-c-h-a-x?  26 THE INTERPRETER: D-a-m-d-o-c-h-a-x.  27 A  It's Blackwater. This is -- this is a lake they call  28 Dax. That's why it's called Dam Duutsxwhl Ax, the  29 lake of the Blackwater. And I'll go back to the  30 question that you asked me about when I was first on  31 the territory.  I was -- when I was old enough -- this  32 is where I was born, at Dam Duutsxwhl Ax, that's where  33 I grew up, and when I was old enough my grandfather  34 would take me to Xsi Luu Witwiidit.  35 MR. MACKENZIE: Could we have a break for the Reporter.  36  37 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  38 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  39  40 MR. GRANT: Before you proceed, Madam Interpreter told me  41 something at the break that I told her to tell you on  42 the record. Could you please explain what you said to  43 me.  44 THE INTERPRETER: It was pointed out to me that I did make a  45 mistake on my translation about the mountain known as  46 Luu Lax Loobit. The boundary goes on top of the  47 mountain. One side belongs to Gibeumget, Niist's 19  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 House, and the other side belongs to Baskyelaxhaa.  2 That's how the boundaries go.  3 MR. GRANT: She indicated to me that -- she said it was  4 indicated to me. Ms. Sampson advised me that Mr.  5 Blackwater told her this in Gitksan of his own accord  6 at the break, so --  7 THE INTERPRETER: And coming from him. The only reason why I  8 pointed it out, so it be clear to you.  9 MR. GRANT:  Yes. What she said to me was he said "I pointed out  10    Luu Lax Loobit so it would be clear to the other  11 lawyer what I was talking about", presumably because  12 you had been asking where things were.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q  So Baskyelaxhaa is on the south side of Luu Lax  15 Loobit?  16 A  If you're standing like this facing the Nass and you  17 see the Maxhla Nihl Tsenden, then it's on your  18 right-hand side.  19 Q  Yes. The boundary goes through Luu Lax Loobit.  20 A  This is where their line, the boundary line goes on  21 top of those mountains.  22 Q  And Gibeumget is on the north side of the mountains?  23 A  Yes, it's Maxhla Nihl Tsenden Ando'o and Maxhla Nihl  24 Tsenden An Gii'i belongs to Gibeumget.  25 Q  And Baskyelaxhaa is on the south side of the Luu Lax  26 Loobit?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  You grew up at Blackwater Lake?  2 9 A  Yes, that's where I was born and that's where I was  30 raised.  31 Q  How long did you live at Blackwater Lake?  32 A  I don't really know when I left there, but I remember  33 when we moved to Kispiox there wasn't very many houses  34 there. The houses were scarce back then. We were  35 almost living in the woods like.  36 Q  Can you recall, was that before you were 15?  37 A  I was born November 12, 1923, and I think it was 1956  38 that I lived in Kispiox.  3 9   MR. GRANT: Madam Interpreter, did he say 1956 he lived in  40 Kispiox or he moved to Kispiox?  41 THE WITNESS:  Yes, we moved to Kispiox in 1956, and we kept  42 returning back to the territory.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q  And your father was Moses Stevens -- no, I'm sorry.  45 That's wrong. What was your father's name?  46 A  His chief name was Wii Minosik and his English name  47 was Jimmy Blackwater. 20  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  And did Moses Stevens live there in those days when  2 you were living there at Blackwater Lake?  3 A  They do come for a visit once in awhile, but they  4 actually lived at Galaanhl Giist with my grandmother.  5 Q  Where is Galaanhl Giist?  6 MR. GRANT: Number 1 under paragraph 42 of Exhibit 605 under  7 lakes.  8 THE INTERPRETER: What page Peter?  9 MR. GRANT: Page 12. I'm just giving --of course I am not  10 answering your question. I am just giving the name  11 that he referred to.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q  I wonder if I could rephrase my question. Galaanhl  14 Giist is Slamgeesh, right, in English?  15 MR. GRANT:  I think Slamgeesh is a variation of the Gitksan  16 name.  17 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q  Moses Stevens' chief's name was Dawamuuk?  20 A  Yes.  21 Q  And Dawamuuk was your grandfather?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  And Dawamuuk owned that territory at Slamgeesh?  24 A  No.  25 Q  Who owned the territory at Slamgeesh?  26 MR. GRANT: That's Galaanhl Giist, the lake.  27 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, Slamgeesh, the lake.  28 THE INTERPRETER: He said that was Solomon Jack's territory, but  29 he forgot his chief's name.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q  Was Solomon Jack alive in those days when Moses  32 Stevens lived at Slamgeesh Lake?  33 THE INTERPRETER: What was -- I can't -- the question -- I mean,  34 it's so funny, because if he wasn't alive then, why is  35 he alive today?  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't know that he's alive today.  37 THE INTERPRETER: Okay. Could you put that question again.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  I will rephrase it.  3 9 Q  Is Solomon Jack alive today?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  And who owned the territory when Moses Stevens lived  42 at Slamgeesh Lake?  43 A  I'll tell you a little bit about this territory. It  44 actually is not Moses Stevens. It belonged to go  45 Gwinin Nitxw.  46 MR. GRANT: The witness finished his answer?  47 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. 21  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q  And Gwinin Nitxw is Wolf Clan?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  Gwinin Nitxw is Kisgegas Wolf Clan?  5 A  Yes. This is where I come from too.  6 Q  Dawamuuk is Fireweed Clan?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  Well, why was Moses Steven living at Slamgeesh Lake?  9 A  Okay. I'll try to make it clear to you what went on  10 on this territory here. To begin with it all started  11 with my grandmother who is known as Esther Stevens.  12 Asgii is her Gitksan name. Esther and Gwinin Nitxw  13 were just like sisters back then, and she took Esther  14 and her husband to be caretakers of this territory as  15 long as they want to be, and this is what happened.  16 Esther stayed there 'til --as long as she could, and  17 when she passed on, that territory was given back to  18 Gwinin Nitxw. And the reason why I am telling you is  19 because I want it made clear, real clear to you what  20 that -- that this happened and this is why that land  21 was returned back to Gwinin Nitxw, because it was his  22 to begin with or hers to begin with.  23 Q  Did Charles Stevens -- I'm sorry, rephrase that  24 question. Was Charles Stevens, Moses Stevens' son?  25 MR. GRANT: Moses and Esthers?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q  Moses and Esther's son?  28 A  Yes, that's my uncle.  2 9 Q  And Charles Stevens name was Gaiyimlaxhaa?  30 THE INTERPRETER: Gaiyimlaxhaa, is that what you said?  31 Q  Gaiyimlaxhaa.  32 A  Yes.  33 Q  Did Charles Stevens own the territory after Esther  34 passed away?  35 A  Yes, that he just went there for a visit two or three  36 times after his mother died, and that was it, and he  37 didn't go back there again.  38 MR. GRANT:  I'm not sure if the witness understood your  3 9    question.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q  Did Charles Stevens claim ownership of the Slamgeesh  42 territory?  43 A  No, he didn't claim that.  44 Q  Well, in your affidavit you refer to seven  45 territories. Which is the territory that you know the  46 best of all?  47 MR. GRANT: Well, just a moment. He may know them all equally. 22  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 That implies that there is a gradation of knowledge,  2 and I think it's an unfair question, because it is  3 based on an assumption that is therefore impossible to  4 answer --  5 MR. MACKENZIE: I'll rephrase the question.  6 Q  Of these territories in the affidavit is there one  7 with which you are more familiar than the others?  8 A  I want to ask you which territory do you want to ask  9 me about. Go ahead and ask me. If you want to ask me  10 about Xsi Luu Witwiidid or Luu Silgim Baad Xsitxemsem,  11 then just tell me which one you want to ask me about.  12 This is all -- these two are Niist's territory, but  13 it's all broken up between our House members.  14 Q  In your affidavit you speak about territories of the  15 House of Niist?  16 A  Yes.  17 Q  You speak about the House of Wii Minosik, Blackwater  18 territory?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  You speak of Kliiyem lax haa, Miin Lax Mihl territory?  21 It's page 8.  22 MR. GRANT:  Page 8.  23 THE WITNESS: This is also with Luu Legax Baad Xsi Txemsem in  24 this territory.  25 Q  And you speak about Luus, Xsi Lax Uu Andoo, page 10.  26 *   A  Yes, this is Luus territory. And *Gii is Gwinin Nitxw 27  from Luus' s on the other side. There is -- the creeks  28    are -- have the same name. One is Xsi Lax Uu and the  2 9    other one is Xsi Lax Uu Andoo.  30 Q  And you speak about Galaanhl Giist territory. That's  31 Gwinin Nitxw?  32 A  Gwinin Nitxw.  33 Q  And you speak about, on page 14, Angodjus,  34 Baskyelaxhaa territory?  35 A  Yes.  36 Q  And finally on page 16 you speak about Xsi Miin Anhl  37 Gii, Geel territory?  38 A  Are you talking about the Galaanhl Xsan of Geel's?  39 Q  I am speaking about --do you know the river Xsi Miin  40 Anhl Gii?  41 THE INTERPRETER: Is that how you say it?  42 MR. STERRITT: Xsi Miin Anhl Gii.  43 THE INTERPRETER: Oh. Well, it's the way it is spelled here.  44 THE WITNESS: He is -- he is asking if you -- are you asking me  45 to describe the territory of Geel?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q  No, I just want to see --to draw his attention to the 23  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 fact that that's one of the territories in the  2 affidavit.  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  Now, of those seven territories, is there one with  5 which you are most familiar?  6 A  I don't really know what this question is all about.  7 If you put this forward, and if you ask me on any of  8 these territories, I will tell you about them. I will  9 tell you about Luu Silgim Baad and Maxhla Biluust  10 Maawxw or any of the territories you can ask me about.  11 Q  The reason I was asking you that is I want to  12 concentrate on one territory, and I want to get to one  13 that you felt the best -- most familiar with, if there  14 was one.  15 MR. GRANT:  I think his answer earlier was that it's up to you  16 to decide which one you want to go after. He will  17 take any one you want.  I think that's what he  18 implied, because he wondered which you were after --  19 which one you were talking about.  20 MR. MACKENZIE: Would you mind translating that.  I think you  21 are right.  22 A  I know what you are trying to get at now. The place I  23 am very familiar with is where I was born and where I  24 was brought up. That's Dam Duutsxahl Axs. This does  25 not belong to us. It belongs to Wii Minosik, who was  26 my grandfather. And the thing is that these  27 territories have been there for centuries and  28 centuries. It was not just created just because of  29 the sake of registered traplines. They were there for  30 centuries, and they -- they used this for survival.  31 Our people needed these lands for survival, and this  32 is what they used it for. It's just been recently  33 that when the white people came they start  34 establishing -- establishing registered traplines, but  35 these lands have been passed on from generation to  36 generation. And this is what I want to make clear.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  I think we have to adjourn at this  38 point.  39  40 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  41 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED SEPTEMBER 2, 1988)  42  43 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, I take it you haven't had an  44 opportunity to check about the Sterritt/Blackwater  45 interview on tape or the Notice to Admit?  46 MR. GRANT:  I've contacted counsel on both --on both on the  47 tape matter, and I was unable to reach co-counsel to 24  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 get the final answer on that. I was unable to reach  2 the counsel who is involved with the response to the  3 May 18th or -- or the August -- was it the August 17th  4 letter, Thora Sigurdson, which of course referred to  5 all our Notices to Admit, not just -- referred to all  6 of the others. So the reconsideration, I gather that  7 was requested, dealt with all of them. All of those  8 specifically referred to that.  9 Q  Mr. Blackwater, did you have an opportunity to check  10 the trunks in Charlotte's house?  11 A  Mother's house, when I came back yesterday, Charlotte  12 wasn't home.  13 Q  You told us yesterday that you are employed with the  14 Kispiox Band. Could you tell us, please, the nature  15 of your employment?  16 MR. GRANT:  Now?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q  Now please.  19 A  I help the people that are excavating where the new  20 houses are going to be built and also excavation for  21 the septic tanks.  22 Q  You told us that your father Jimmy Blackwater was Wii  23 Minosik?  24 A  Yes, right.  25 Q  And the Blackwater Lake territory was Wii Minosik  26 territory?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  And today Wii Minosik is Robert Stevens?  2 9 A  Yes.  30 Q  And today Robert Stevens claims the Blackwater  31 territory?  32 A  Yes.  33 Q  Why is Robert Stevens not speaking today about his  34 territory?  35 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. Why is he -- Robert Stevens may be  36 speaking about his territory. I know what you are  37 asking, but I think you should frame it a little  38 differently.  3 9   MR. MACKENZIE:  40 Q  I'll rephrase my question. Why did Robert Stevens ask  41 you to speak about the Blackwater territory?  42 MR. GRANT:  In the affidavit?  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  In the affidavit.  44 A  He knows that I have knowledge about this territory  45 where I was brought up, and my grandfather did take  46 him there and show them the boundaries. He is  47 familiar with the boundaries, but he doesn't know the 25  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 names of places, also the mountains. And he also goes  2 there once in awhile.  3 Q  Does Robert Stevens trap on that territory today?  4 A  Yes, he does --he went there with David.  5 Q  Your brother David Blackwater?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  When did he go there with David?  8 A  I am not too sure how long it is. I think it's about  9 two years since him and David went there.  10 Q  Do you know when Robert Stevens went there before that  11 visit?  12 A  The way it is with our people, he was always with  13 my -- with my father before the death of my father,  14 because my father was pointing out things to him on  15 the territory. And this is what they usually do,  16 because they know their time is near. And he was  17 trying to show Robert where -- what was on the  18 territory, and from this time he always goes with  19 David.  20 Q  Wii Minosik is Frog Clan, Kisgegas?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  And you are Wolf Clan, Kisgegas?  23 A  Yes.  24 Q  And you know the rivers and the lakes and the  25 mountains and the Blackwater territory?  26 A  Yes.  27 Q  And who told you about the boundaries of Blackwater  28 territory?  29 A  My father.  30 Q  Do you know the boundaries of the Slamgeesh territory?  31 A  Yes, I know.  32 Q  Who told you the boundaries of this Slamgeesh  33 territory?  34 A  My grandfather.  35 Q  Xsan Six Moohl is in the Blackwater territory?  36 MR. GRANT: Do you have a -- just a reference on the --  37 MR. MACKENZIE: Page seven, rivers, number 9.  38 MR. GRANT: Referring to Exhibit 605.  3 9   THE INTERPRETER: What was the question given please?  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q  Is in the Blackwater territory.  42 A  It is -- there is the lake here, and here is where my  43 parent's house was, cabins were, and behind that  44 about -- from the lake to the -- to this Xsan Six  45 Moohl is about one mile, and it goes the other way.  46 It goes down this way.  47 MR. GRANT: And the witness was indicating that it goes - 26  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 pointed to the lake and the closest to him, and then  2 at the far end of the lake from him where his parent's  3 cabin was, and then he indicated that the creek goes  4 off to the right. Just for the record, the witness  5 was describing it using his hands.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q  Xsan Six Moohl flows into Damdochax Creek?  8 THE INTERPRETER: What was it?  9 Q  That's number 4 on page 7 under rivers and creeks.  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  Yes. So Xsan Six Mohl is in the Blackwater territory?  12 A  Yes.  13 MR. GRANT:  When you say Blackwater territory, you are referring  14 to the territory that he says as belonging to Wii  15 Minosik? Same territory?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  17 Q  And Xsu Gwasak is in the Slamgeesh territory? That's  18 page 13, rivers and creek, number 3.  19 THE INTERPRETER: What number is it please?  20 MR. MACKENZIE: Number 3 under rivers and creeks.  21 THE INTERPRETER: Could you --  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q  Xsu Gwasak is in the Slamgeesh territory?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  Xsu Wil Skaiyip is in the Slamgeesh territory? That's  26 page seven.  27 MR. GRANT: Just a moment.  28 MR. MACKENZIE: Page seven, rivers and creeks, number 10.  29 A  This is -- I'll tell you about this. Where Xsu Wil  30 Skaiyip is, is where the boundary is. This is the  31 boundary for Dam Duutsxwhl Ax and Galaanhl Giist.  32 Q  And the boundary runs between Xsan Six Moohl and Xsu  33 Wil Skaiyip?  34 A  No, it's different.  35 Q  Where is the boundary?  36 A  It goes on top of the mountains. It comes from Miin  37 Anhl Gii and it goes along the tops of the mountains  38 and it goes to Gelt Sagat. It goes to the Maxhla An  39 Muuxs, and then it goes down to Gelt Sagat. Then goes  40 down to Xsu Wil Skaiyip, and then it goes up, and then  41 there is another mountain there that's known as An  42 Damhl. This side belongs to Luus and on the other  43 side is Gwinin Nitxw.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  I think we better stop now for a moment.  45 MR. GRANT: Just for the record, he indicated on the right side  46 and the left side.  47 27  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (OFF THE RECORD)  2  3 MR. MACKENZIE: We just had a discussion about Mr. Blackwater's  4 description of the boundary and Mrs. Sampson's  5 interpretation. I think we all agree now. I am going  6 to ask for confirmation that -- Mr. Blackwater, can  7 you confirm that the boundary goes -- that you said  8 that the boundary goes from Geel Sagat down to Wil  9 Skaiyip?  10 *   A  Yes, the -- there is a creek running down from Geel  11 Sagat down to Wil Skaiyip.  I want this to be very  12 clear.  If I was standing at Dam Duutsxwhl Ax -- if I  13 was standing at Wil Skaiyip, the boundary would be on  14 my right hand.  If I'm standing at Wil Skaiyip, then I  15 will be facing Dam Duutsxwhl Ax, and I'm talking about  16 the boundary on my right side.  17 Q  Yes. I think we understand that. Very good. Okay.  18 MR. GRANT: Off the record.  19 (OFF THE RECORD)  20 A  I want this to be very clear to everyone here. The  21 territory that we are talking about, if you do not  22 understand what I am saying, you can ask me any time  23 what I am saying. And I know this territory quite  24 well, and I want to make it really clear to everybody  25 that's here. So if you don't understand me, you can  26 ask me again.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q  Is Gelt Sagat south of Xsu Wil Skaiyip?  2 9 MR. GRANT: What was the first word you said?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Gelt Sagat.  31 A  The Xsu Wil Skaiyip flows into the Skeena, and there  32 is another -- it's sort of like the creeks are sort of  33 like this. The other one flows into the Nass.  34 MR. GRANT:  How did you --  35 THE INTERPRETER: He says it's almost like this. The creeks are  36 situated something like this.  37 MR. GRANT: He is indicating with the hands the height of land.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 9 Q  Either a height of land or a coming towards or almost  40 towards each other. I want to go and clarify this.  41 A  These creeks come from flow -- the headwaters start at  42 Gelt Sagat.  43 Q  Yes.  44 MR. GRANT: The reason I said the height of land was because the  45 way he was explaining was -- appeared that one went  46 down on one side towards the Nass, the other went down  47 towards the Skeena, which presumes a water shed height 28  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 of land. That's why I said --  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Very good.  Yes.  3 Q  And so Xsu Wil Skaiyip flows downhill to the Skeena  4 River, correct?  5 A  Yes. The territory has -- it has -- it is round -- it  6 is close -- the creek goes down from -- comes from  7 Gelt Sagat, it goes towards the Xsi Txemsem.  8 Q  The Nass River?  9 A  The Nass. And there is -- there is a swampy place  10 where it's almost like a lake, but it's not a real  11 lake. This is where the -- where another creek comes  12 from, and then it goes down to Dam Silgwit.  13 MR. GRANT: When I -- I just want to clarify, because my  14 comment -- when I said, of course, height of land, I  15 only meant it was a water shed. I didn't mean it was  16 a steep peak or anything like that. I was trying to  17 explain what the witness and interpreter were  18 describing as creeks going in two different directions  19 from close to each other.  20 A  Okay. This creek that I just finished talking about,  21 Xsu Wil Skaiyip, this is the one that comes from the  22 Gelt Sagat Mountain, but the other one --  23 THE INTERPRETER: That other one that goes down to the Skeena.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q  Xsan Six Moohl.  26 A  This creek that flows from the swamp like area, goes  27 to Dam Silgwit.  28 MR. GRANT: Number 2 on page 12.  2 9 A  And there is another lake about two miles from Dam  30 Silgwit. Dam Galaanhl Giist is the name of this lake.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q  Yes, I understand. So, as you're saying, Xsu Wil  33 Skaiyip flows down to Dam Silgwit and to Slamgeesh to  34 the Skeena, correct?  35 A  Yes.  36 THE INTERPRETER: What was the other question?  37 Q  The Slamgeesh to Skeena.  38 MR. GRANT: Slamgeesh River or Slamgeesh Lake?  3 9   MR. MACKENZIE:  40 Q  Lake -- river.  41 A  Yes.  42 Q  Xsan Six Moohl flows to Damdochax Lake, Damdochax  43 Creek, Nass?  44 A  I'll try to make it a little clearer. We'll just  45 mention the waters of the -- this territory, and then  46 I'll take it down to the Nass River.  47 MR. GRANT: Before -- just for clarification, you say the waters 29  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 of this territory. Can you ask him which territory he  2 is referring to.  3 THE WITNESS: The one that goes towards Damdochax.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q  Well, I would like to hear about the other lakes and  6 creeks, but could you tell him I understand what he is  7 talking about, and I wonder if he could just answer my  8 question about Xsan Six Moohl going to Damdochax to  9 the Nass, if that's what it does.  10 A  Okay. I'll tell you about Xsan Six Moohl. There is  11 the lake -- there is this lake known as Dam Duutsxwhl  12 Ax, and this is where Xsan Six Moohl flows from, and  13 it flows from there and then gets to another creek  14 that meets another creek. Let's start from the  15 mountain. I really want to make it clear --  16 MR. GRANT: Let's get the answer on the record what he said.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q  As soon as Alice finishes, yes.  I think she has  19 finished.  20 MR. GRANT:  Did you?  21 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I finish.  22 MR. GRANT: But I think he is trying to answer your question,  23 and he is saying I will answer your question in this  24 way. And I think he is entitled to answer it that  25 way, which he is trying to answer your question.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q  Before he answers my question, could you ask him where  28 does the water from --  2 9 MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  With respect, Mr. Mackenzie, I think  30 he is entitled to answer your question before you go  31 to your next question.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't want to get into any more arguments with  33 you, Peter, so --  34 MR. GRANT:  I just want him to answer the question. That's all  35 I want him to do.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  I was just going to say that we were in  37 disagreement for the whole week, but I am trying to be  38 reasonable, and I will go along with you. So go ahead  39 with that please.  40 MR. GRANT:  I don't think we have been in disagreement all week.  41 THE WITNESS:  There is a mountain called Maxhla An Muuxs.  42 There are two Xsan Six Moohl. One goes to the Dam  43 Duutsxuhl Ax and the other flows into the Xsan --  44 Skeena. It's almost the same as the way the Xsu Wil  45 Skaiyip is. The creeks -- there are 2 creeks there,  46 and this is almost the same as that. It comes from  47 the Maxhla An Muuxs. The Xsan Six Moohl goes down, 30  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 flows down, and it flows into the Dam Duutsxwhl Ax.  2 A  There is another creek that flows into the -- to the  3 Dam Duutsxwhl Ax, and it's known as Xsi Luu Am Maldit.  4 That -- and this one flows into the Nass River.  5 MR. GRANT: Is he finished his answer?  6 A  Yes.  7 (OFF THE RECORD)  8 MR. MACKENZIE: We had a discussion about one of -- what  9 happened as a result of one of my questions which was  10 inelegantly phrased. I think we have now looked at  11 the maps, and I think counsel have agreed that the  12 creek we have been speaking about, Xsan Six Moohl,  13 does flow into Dam Duutsxwhl Ax Creek and into the  14 Nass River, and I was mistaken in suggesting that it  15 might flow into Damdochax Lake.  16 MR. GRANT: As a result of that question, I think we got into a  17 detailed answer. All counsel have looked at the map  18 and agree that that creek, Xsan Six Moohl, flows into  19 Damdochax River.  20 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Creek.  21 MR. GRANT: Damdochax Creek. Sorry, I should never have  22 restated it.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q  Mrs. Sampson, could you tell Mr. Blackwater -- all my  25 questions are simply to find out where the boundary is  26 in that area between -- when you are standing on the  27 boundary --  28 MR. GRANT: Of which territory?  29 MR. MACKENZIE: Of Slamgeesh, Damdochax, the creeks on one side  30 flow to the Nass and the creeks on the other side flow  31 to the Skeena.  32 THE INTERPRETER: Could you mention the creeks again.  33 Q  The creeks on one side flow to the Nass, the creeks on  34 the other side flow to the Skeena.  35 A  Are you going back to Wil Skaiyip now?  36 Q  Xsu Wil Skaiyip.  37 A  Xsu Wil Skaiyip.  38 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. Before you ask him that, could I  3 9 clarify, when you say -- going back to Xsu Wil  40 Skaiyip. You were going back to the boundary between  41 these two territories?  42 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, in that area.  43 MR. GRANT:  In the area where -- my understanding is that you  44 were going back to Wil Skaiyip.  45 MR. MACKENZIE: Xsu Wil Skaiyip. Wil Skaiyip is down at the  46 bottom. Xsu Wil Skaiyip is the creek that flows down  47 into Dam Silgwit Lake. Let's not get into this. You 31  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 are not translating that --  2 THE INTERPRETER: No.  3 A  Yes, this is the Xsu Wil Skaiyip is the boundary.  4 Q  Oh, yes. So on one side of the boundary all the  5 creeks go to the Nass and the other side of the  6 boundary all the creeks go to the Skeena?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  I am finished with this, but if you want to make some  9 other comments.  10 MR. GRANT: I think he is giving more.  11 A  Is it clear to you what I am telling you?  12 Q  Yes.  13 MR. GRANT: We will only know at the end of the day, Mr.  14 Blackwater, whether it's clear to Mr. Mackenzie. I'm  15 not sure if he wants it to be clear.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  17 Q  Do you know where the sixth cabin is?  18 A  Yes, I know.  19 Q  That's in Damdochax territory?  20 A  Yes, it's near the Nass -- the Nass River is the  21 boundary of the --of this territory, Dam Duutsxwhl  22 Ax. You mentioned the sixth cabin. This is where --  23 the mountain is situated behind that cabin known as  24 Loop Guu Hanak.  25 MR. GRANT:  Number 2 under mountains under paragraph 21, Exhibit  26    605.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q  And which -- when you are going along the trail to  2 9    sixth cabin toward the Nass, when do you leave  30 Damdochax territory?  31 A  It's not very clear what you are asking me.  32 Q  Which -- the boundary of Damdochax territory is on the  33 Nass River?  34 A  It goes -- it reaches the Nass and it doesn't go far  35 right along.  36 Q  It doesn't cross --  37 A  Oh, it doesn't cross the Nass.  38 Q  Which side of the Nass River does the boundary run  3 9    along?  40 A  This has been going on for centuries about the rivers.  41 It goes right to the centre of the river. This is how  42 far the boundary goes, right to the centre, and  43 somebody that owns the other side does the same thing.  44 He claims to the centre of that river.  45 Q  The boundary between Damdochax territory and Xsi Luu  46 Witwiidid territory runs along the centre of the Nass  47 River? 32  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  The Duutsxwhl Ax boundary goes up to the Loop Guu  2 Hanak, then it goes down to the -- through the trail  3 that you mentioned. It goes down there and then it  4 goes towards the Xsi Txemsem, and from there on it  5 goes through the Xsi Txemsem, then it goes up and then  6 it reaches the Maxhla Biluust Maawxw.  7 Q  Does the boundary go on the other side of the Nass  8 River on the side opposite Damdochax?  9 MR. GRANT: You say the boundary?  10 THE WITNESS:  No, it doesn't go across.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q  Is any part of the boundary on the Damdochax side of  13 the river between Xsi Luu Witwiidid and Damdochax?  14 *   A  The -- it's quite long, the Xsi Luu Witwiidid, and  15 it's situated on the other side of the Nass River, and  16 this is where the -- the water runs, Xsi Luu Witwiidid  17 runs from. Okay. The Damdochax boundary starts from  18 *Loop Guu Hanak going up, and then it goes down to the  19 Nass River. The creek flows into the creek from the  20 Dam Duutsxwhl Ax flows into the Nass.  21 We'll start at An Damhl. There is a range of  22 mountains -- there is a creek coming from those  23 mountains, but we are talking about the boundary of  24 Dam Duutsxwhl Ax, and it goes on top of the mountains,  25 the range of mountains. This is the where the  26 boundary of Dam Duutsxwhl Ax, is where the mountain --  27 the range of mountains are, and Luus owns the other  28 side, and this is the boundary between Luus and the  2 9 Dam Duutsxwhl Ax, the creek goes into Xsi Txemsem, the  30 Nass.  31 THE INTERPRETER: It's so hard for me, I just can't -- I don't  32 know. I'm getting all mixed up here.  33 MR. GRANT: That's your comment?  34 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, that's my comment.  35 *THE WITNESS:  It goes back -- the creek goes back to -- it goes  36 to the Xsi Txemsem. It flows into the Xsi Txemsem,  37 and the boundary keeps on along the *Nass. *We are  38 going up now. We come to -- we come to this creek  3 9 that comes from Xsi Txemsem.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q  It comes from Damdochax?  42 A  Comes from Dam Duutsxwhl Ax. There is a sort of a  43 hill like feature and it goes right up to the  44 mountains. And this mountain is known as Loop Guu  45 Hanak. It goes to Loop Guu Hanak and then it reaches  46 Dim Geiss Hanii Jok, and then we'll go back to the  47 mountain known as Sganis' Gwiik. 33  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  Yes. I understand.  2 A  And this is where we get back to Xsi Miin Anhl Gii.  3  4 (OFF THE RECORD)  5  6 Q  I have here a note that was made by Neil Sterritt  7 about a conversation with Walter Blackwater in May,  8 1983.  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  Do you recall discussing the territories with Neil in  11 May, 1983?  12 A  Yes, I remember.  13 Q  Neil has written down here that Walter doesn't know if  14 Wii Minosik crosses the Nass.  15 MR. GRANT: Just a second. He says under -- this is a data  16 sheet. He says -- the note is -- it says:  17  18 "Don't know if Wii Minosik crosses the Nass."  19  20 Doesn't say Walter does not know --  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q  I'll rephrase the question. The note says:  23  24 "Don't know if Wii Minosik crosses the  25 Nass."  26  27 A  No, it doesn't cross it.  28 Q  At that meeting in 1983 did Walter know that Wii  2 9 Minosik boundary doesn't cross the Nass?  30 A  Yes, I knew before.  31 Q  You have -- you have known for many years that Wii  32 Minosik boundary does not cross the Nass?  33 A  I have told you before that I was born and brought up  34 there, and I have never seen my father going across to  35 the Nass River. And he would just go to the --to one  36 side and never cross the Nass.  37 Q  This notation from Mr. Sterritt's field books is dated  38 May 22, 1983, and it's page 3-138, and our -- I think  39 we have numbered the pages in those. There is the  40 volume number and 138 is the page number.  41 MR. GRANT: Just to correct it, this appears to be a topographic  42 survey data sheet as it's titled.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  44 MR. GRANT:  I think it's incorrect to refer to it as Neil  45 Sterritt's field books, because those were other  46 documents which you also have.  47 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, that's true. So it's Neil Sterritt's 34  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 topographic data sheets.  2 MR. GRANT: The only other point is there is no indication there  3 whether it was a meeting or, for example, a telephone  4 conversation. You referred to it as a meeting, and it  5 may or may not have been a meeting. I don't know.  6 But I think you should just refer to -- you should  7 refer to in his conversation or something --  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, the topographic data sheets simply records  9 Walter Blackwater as an informant.  10 Q  I have a map which was -- I have a map of Wii Minosik  11 territory identified by Robert Stevens in 1986. Can  12 you tell him that please. This is part two of three  13 parts which shows the Damdochax territory.  14 MR. GRANT: For the record, this was a map attached to an  15 interrogatory, and it's referred to as a draft copy.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's right.  17 Q  This Robert Stevens' map says that Wii Minosik  18 boundary crosses the Nass River. Do you agree with  19 that?  20 A  No, I don't agree. Yes.  21 Q  Robert Stevens' map says --  22 MR. GRANT: The interpreter then said yes. I think the answer  23 is no, I don't agree, for the record.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q  Robert Stevens' maps says Dawamuuk claims Slamgeesh  26 territory. Do you agree with that?  27 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I want you to translate this before  28 he answers. This map is referred to as showing as a  2 9 draft map showing boundaries of Wii Minosik territory.  30 The references to other names outside of that  31 territory is not part of the evidence of Robert  32 Stevens. All he refers to is the boundaries of his  33 territory in his interrogatories. So whatever the map  34 says about outside the territory may or may not be  35 adopted by Robert Stevens as part of his evidence.  36 MR. MACKENZIE: Do you want that translated?  37 MR. GRANT: Yes. Can you explain that these names outside the  38 boundary are not necessarily what Robert Stevens says,  3 9 as he only refers to this map as showing the  40 boundaries of his territory.  41 THE WITNESS:  Yes, but this one is not right. It's way  42 different.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q  Robert Stevens' map says Dawamuuk claims Slamgeesh.  45 Do you agree with that?  46 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I think you should say -- I have no  47 objection to you asking him if Dawamuuk claims 35  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Slamgeesh. I disagree with the phraseology of the  2 question that Robert Stevens' map says Dawamuuk claims  3 Slamgeesh. The intent of these draft maps was to  4 provide approximate boundaries to the defendants at  5 the time of the filing of interrogatories. The  6 references to names on the borders was neither asked  7 in the interrogatories, and any gratuitous notations  8 to that effect are not the evidence -- necessarily the  9 evidence of the witness. So I would ask that if you  10 wanted to ask what Dawamuukw's claims is, I have no  11 objection, but I don't think that you should say  12 Robert Stevens or Robert Stevens' map says that -- the  13 naming there. There is no indication as to what that  14 naming refers to.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q  The map produced by Robert Stevens says Dawamuuk  17 claims Slamgeesh. Do you agree with that?  18 MR. GRANT: Does not say that Dawamuuk claims Slamgeesh.  I  19 object to the question as worded. It has the name  20 Dawamuuk in the area of Slamgeesh. That's all it  21 says, nothing more.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q  The map produced by Robert Stevens has the name  24 Dawamuuk in the Slamgeesh area.  25 A  No.  26 Q  Do you agree that Dawamuuk claims Slamgeesh area?  27 A  No.  28 Q  The map produced by Robert Stevens has the boundary  2 9    running from Sagat north of Xsu Wil Skaiyip. Do you  30 agree with that?  31 MR. GRANT: The boundary between?  32 MR. MACKENZIE: The boundary between Slamgeesh and Damdochax.  33 It's the boundary between Damdochax and Slamgeesh.  It  34 runs north of Xsu Wil Skaiyip. This is the boundary  35 here.  36 (OFF THE RECORD)  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q  The question is the map produced by Robert Stevens  3 9    says the boundary between Damdochax and Slamgeesh runs  40 north of Xsu Wil Skaiyip.  41 *   A  The boundary of that territory is the *Wil Skaiyip.  42 Q  The map produced by Robert Stevens shows Xsi Lax Uu in  43 Luus territory.  44 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I object to the question.  Again the  45    name Luus is in that area. There is no evidence from  46 Robert Stevens as to who owns these external  47 boundaries. All there was was a map showing his 36  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 territory. The other naming on that map was not part  2 of the evidence of Robert Stevens. It's not attested  3 to in his interrogatory. He just referrs to it as the  4 boundary of his territory. I object to any questions  5 framed in the way suggesting that Robert Stevens says  6 Luus --or Robert Stevens' map says Luus or any of  7 these other people own another territory. That's not  8 what his answer says.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q  I'll rephrase the question. Robert Stevens' map shows  11 a boundary between Damdochax and Luus territory.  12 MR. GRANT: With respect, the same objection applies. You can  13 say it shows a boundary between Damdochax and the  14 territory of Xsi Lax Uu Ando'o.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Just so I understand, why would it make any  16 difference if Robert Stevens didn't attest where Xsi  17 Lax Uu Ando'o is, if you say that Robert Stevens' maps  18 shows a boundary between Xsi Lax Uu Ando'o and  19 Damdochax rather than Luus. Those both are names  20 outside the boundary that's being described.  21 MR. GRANT: The distinction is quite simply this, that in order  22 for a question to be asked about where this black line  23 is, I don't think there is anything wrong with  24 referring to it in relation to a geographic place name  25 that is on the map, either within or outside that  26 connects to where the map is. What I am saying is  27 that in this draft copy there may have been other  28 names of other chiefs put around. That was not part  2 9 of the question, and it is not part of the answer.  30 Because those were the only copies available at that  31 time, and in order to expedite answering the  32 interrogatory, those copies were delivered, but none  33 of the interrogatory witnesses attested to these  34 people on these boundaries, unlike Mr. Blackwater and  35 the other territorial affidavit witnesses who have  36 attested in their affidavits to who is outside their  37 boundaries. They have sworn to that, but Robert  38 Stevens never did. All Robert Stevens and the other  3 9 interrogatory witnesses did was attest to where  40 this -- where their boundaries -- where their  41 approximate boundaries were, by reference to a draft  42 copy of the map. And these other names, I object to  43 the questions saying that those interrogatory  44 witnesses attested that Luus or any of these other  45 outside people were there.  46 MR. MACKENZIE: That wasn't the question, but I will rephrase  47 it. 37  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT: Because that's misleading to the witness and that's  2 incorrect.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 Q  This map to which we have been referring shows that  5 Shilahou is in Luus territory.  6 MR. GRANT: Objection on the same basis.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Your objection is noted.  Translate the question  8 please.  9 MR. GRANT: No -- it's misleading. It's misleading, Mr.  10 Mackenzie.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's not misleading. The map shows what I just  12 said.  13 MR. GRANT: Well, you are pacing back and forth at high speed,  14 but what I am saying to you is that I have just  15 explained two or three times that this map must be  16 read in conjunction with the answer of the witness.  17 What that name refers to outside -- there is no  18 evidence whatsoever as to what that names refers to  19 outside the boundary. All this map is evidence of is  20 that Robert Stevens says that these are the  21 approximate boundaries of his territory, and he refers  22 to a draft map. That's all he says. He does not talk  23 about who the neighbours are.  24 So if you want to ask if these people are outside or  25 if they own that territory, I have got no objection to  26 that, but I object to you framing the question such a  27 way to say that Robert Stevens through his map says  28 that those people own that territory, because that's  2 9 not the evidence. It's, misleading to the witness.  30 You can ask -- I got no objection to you asking if  31 Luus owns this or Niist owns this or anything else.  32 That, of course, is totally proper and it would solve  33 your problem. You would get your answer.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q  On this map Shilahou runs into a territory with Luus's  36 name. Do you agree with that?  37 A  There are two Xsi Lax Uu, and which are you talking  38 about, Xsi Lax Uu or the one that goes into the  3 9 Skeena?  40 Q  Skeena.  41 MR. GRANT:  I don't think so. From the way this map looks, it  42 looks like Xsi Lax Uu Ando'o, and it appears on the  43 draft map that you have -- okay, you are referring to  44 Xsi Lax Uu.  45 THE WITNESS:  The one that goes towards the Nass River belongs  46 to Luus.  47 Q  Shilahou -- 38  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT:  Well --  2 THE WITNESS:  There is a mountain like this. One goes to the  3 Nass and the other one goes to Galaanhl Giist. It  4 goes to -- it goes into Galaanhl Giist and then it  5 goes into the Skeena.  6 *   Q  That *Galaanhl Giist into Luus territory?  7 *   A  Okay. I said this before, that the Xsi Lax Uu Ando'o  8 that goes into the Nass belongs to Luus, and there is  9 a mountain ridge. The Xsi Lax Uu is Gwinin Nitxw. It  10 comes there -- their boundary is that mountain ridge  11 there.  12 MR. GRANT:Madam Interpreter, just because you are referring to  13 Xsi Lax Uu and Xsi Lax Uu Ando'o, can you just  14 translate what does Ando'o mean?  15 THE INTERPRETER: Ando'o is on the other side.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  I appreciate that you can ask questions during  17 the cross-examination --  18 MR. GRANT:  I am asking Madam Interpreter, not the witness.  19 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, you can ask in redirect if you want.  20 MR. GRANT:  I wanted to clarify that because the witness says  21 there are two Xsi Lax Uu.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q  Do you know the creek, Xsi Luu Maseexit?  24 THE INTERPRETER: Is that the way you say it, Xsi Luu Maseexit,  25 or Xsi Luu Maseexit?  26 A  Now, which territory are you talking about? Are you  27 talking about Xsi Galaanhl Giist or Dam Duutsxwhl Ax?  28 Q  Talking about Xsi Luu Maseexit that flows into the  2 9    Skeena River.  30 A  I don't know that.  31 (OFF THE RECORD)  32 Q  This map shows Muut as having a territory -- sorry.  33 On this map the name Muut appears on a territory next  34 to -- north of Damdochax. Do you agree that Muut has  35 territory with a boundary on Damdochax?  36 A  Are you talking about towards the Skeena?  37 Q  Yes.  38 A  I don't know about Muut's territory towards the  3 9    Skeena, but I know that -- I know the territory about  40 Maxhla Biluust Maawxs territory. I know about the  41 territory known as Tsaphl Hasiiyeeks.  42 Q  Does Muut have a territory with a border on Damdochax  43 territory?  44 A  No.  45 Q  On this map Kliiyem lax ha, Miin Lax Mihl boundary  46 goes along the Nass River. Do you agree with that?  47 A  Yes, it does go along the Nass, and then where the -- 39  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 where the -- there is another creek that comes  2 together. This is how far it goes to Maxhla Biluust  3 Maawxs. I'll tell you about this Miin Lax Mihl. The  4 creek known as Maxhla Biluust Maawxs drains into the  5 Nass River. We go along the Xsi Txemsem. The -- you  6 don't go very far and then you come to the boundary of  7 the Tsetsawit people. We come to a swampy place, and  8 this is where there is a pole standing there which me  9 and my uncle Sam Hope came upon. And on this post  10 there is a writing. We don't know what it says, but  11 it looks like Chinese writing. And this is the  12 boundary of the Stikine people.  13 Q  So --  14 MR. GRANT: Is the witness finished the answer?  15 THE WITNESS:  This is how far where the -- this is how far  16 Kliiyem lax haa -- Kliiyem lax haa goes, and then it  17 goes up to -- then it goes to Dim Geiss Hanii Jok.  18 Q  Does Kliiyem lax haa's boundary cross the Nass River?  19 *   A  Okay. It goes along the Skeena -- along the Nass and  20 then it gets to Maxhla Biluust Maawxs. And then it  21 goes to *Dim Geiss Hanii Jok and it goes to the  22 boundary of -- it comes to the boundary of Wii  23 Minosik, which I told you before. I am not going to  24 go through that again.  25 Q  Thank you very much.  26 MR. GRANT: Unless you wanted it.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  I wish to file that map with Wii Minosik  28 affidavit and interrogatory 59C as an exhibit.  2 9 MR. GRANT:  I just want to note for the record that I -- since  30 you have been referring to that map, I guess it makes  31 sense to mark it as an exhibit, but I just want to  32 note for the record that that was one of three, I  33 believe, maps.  I don't think the other two should be  34 marked as exhibits now, although they could be  35 ultimately if you want to tie them, because I assume  36 you are not going to be asking this witness questions  37 on it. So that map is the second of three maps which  38 are part of the answer to Wii Minosik, and you are  3 9 going to file together with that the answer --  40 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  I think this is already an exhibit, that  41 is the affidavit and 59C, but this map has not been  42 exhibited yet because it wasn't dealt with.  43 MR. GRANT: Why don't you -- let's be consistent. File the  44 affidavit and that 59C and that one map as the next  45 exhibit in this proceeding, and it's not going to hurt  46 anybody if -- it's one of three maps is all it is.  47 MR. MACKENZIE: Showing the Damdochax territory. 40  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT: There were three territories shown in answer.  2  3 (EXHIBIT 2 - MAP WITH WII MINOSIK AFFIDAVIT  4 DATED AUGUST 7, 1986 AND INERROGATORY 59C)  5  6 (OFF THE RECORD)  7  8 MR. MACKENZIE: That affidavit we marked as Exhibit 2, the  9 affidavit dated August 7, 1986.  10 MR. GRANT: And the answer to 5 9C together with one of the three  11 maps is marked as Exhibit 2. And the typewritten part  12 of that map -- the typewritten part on the bottom of  13 that map "this is schedule B" is added by provincial  14 defendants.  15 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. And I also would like to file the Robert  16 Stevens' affidavit dated January 29, 1987, and  17 interrogatory in answer to 59C attached to that  18 affidavit.  19 MR. GRANT:  I would propose rather than doing that, I agree that  20 the answer to 59C of that affidavit of January 2 9th,  21 1987 says, in answer to the same question as you  22 already filed as Exhibit 2:  23  24 "See maps which were attached to schedule B to  25 my affidavit of August 7, 1986."  26  27 And that's the answer to that question. It refers  28 to the same maps. Rather than filing it as an  2 9 exhibit, I concur that that's the answer on the  30 record.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  I would like to have the affidavit also, January  32 29, 1987, filed.  33 MR. GRANT: For the purposes of paragraph 5?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  35 MR. GRANT: Once again, I agree that paragraph 5 of the January  36 29, 1987 affidavit says:  37  38 "Schedule B which is referred to in Exhibit  3 9 A, being the answers to the interrogatorries,  40 has already been delivered, is not included in  41 this affidavit."  42  43 And if you want to file it, of course ultimately at  44 trial you can, but I presume you are not going to ask  45 the witness questions on it, and that should solve  46 your immediate --  47 MR. MACKENZIE: We've referred to the affidavit of Robert 41  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Stevens dated January 29, 1987, and Mr. Grant is  2 saying it also contains an interrogatory to answer 59C  3 referring to the map that has been filed here as an  4 Exhibit 2.  5  6     (OFF THE RECORD)  7  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q  I have here a map, draft copy produced by Solomon  10 Jack, August, 1986. Solomon Jack is Gwinin Nitxw?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  Solomon Jack gave you permission to speak about the  13 Slamgeesh territory?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  In your affidavit you say Solomon Jack -- paragraph  16 38 -- you say Solomon Jack claims the Slamgeesh  17 territory.  18 MR. GRANT:  It's claimed by the House of Gwinin Nitxw.  19 THE WITNESS:  I'm not too sure about what you asking me. Are  20 you -- did you want to know something about the Niist  21 territory, or are you now moving to Solomon Jack's  22 territory? I might be wrong here, but I don't quite  23 understand if you want to know about Niist territory  24 or the Solomon Jack territory.  25 Q  Solomon Jack, Gwinin Nitxw, claims the Slamgeesh  26 territory?  27 A  Yes, this is.  28 MR. GRANT: When I interjected, it was only to refer to -- to  29 correct the word of your question, which is that  30 paragraph 38 says it is claimed by the House of Gwinin  31 Nitxw. I would appreciate --at least not change the  32 wording. And if you're asking him that's what he  33 says --  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q  On this map produced by Solomon Jack the name Dawamuuk  36 appears on the Slamgeesh territory. Do you agree with  37 that?  38 A  No.  39 Q  This is -- this map is Exhibit 420 in the trial.  40 MR. GRANT: And Mr. -- Chief Gwinin Nitxw in his answer in  41 reference to this map stated:  42  43 "See map which is attached as schedule B. It  44 sets out the approximate boundaries of my  45 territory."  46  47      I note that for the record. 42  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. And it says draft copy.  2 MR. GRANT: And the map itself is a draft copy. And he says  3 nothing more about who is on the external boundaries  4 of the territory, and of course I would appreciate  5 your endeavoring to rephrase your questions and not  6 suggest that he is saying that those -- the same  7 position as with respect to Robert Stevens; in other  8 words, that he only says that is the approximate  9 boundaries of my territory and says nothing more about  10 the map.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q  In 1986 we asked Solomon Jack what are the boundaries  13 of his House's territory.  14 THE INTERPRETER: Could you rephrase it again please.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q  In 1986 we asked Solomon Jack what are the boundaries  17 of his House's territory.  18 A  Yes.  19 Q  Solomon Jack did not claim the Slamgeesh territory in  20 answer to that question. Do you agree with that?  21 MR. GRANT: What do you agree with? I mean, you made a  22 statement Solomon Jack didn't claim the Slamgeesh  23 territory.  I mean, he hasn't --  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q  Do you say that Solomon Geesh now does claim the  26 Slamgeesh territory?  27 MR. GRANT: Could we have a spelling for that first word.  28 MS. KOENIGSBERG: You said Solomon Geesh.  2 9   MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q  Do you say that Solomon Jack now does claim the  31 Slamgeesh territory?  32 A  Yes, that's Solomon's.  33 Q  Solomon Jack's map shows the boundary -- does the  34 boundary of the Slamgeesh territory go along Xsa'an  35 Gas?  36 A  It's known as Gitangas.  It's close to that.  37 Q  Does the boundary of Slamgeesh go along Xsi Gisa Genx?  38 A  Yes. I'm not too sure about Xsi Gisa Genx. Is that  3 9    the one that does go into the Skeena?  40 Q  Yes.  41 A  Which are you talking about? There is a creek at Xsi  42 Galaanhl Giist. Are you talking about one that goes  43 up, the creek that goes up to -- are you talking about  44 one that goes to Gitangas? Are you talking about the  45 one that goes to Gitangas, and are you talking about  46 Gitangas now?  47 Q  That's difficult to say. 43  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2 (OFF THE RECORD)  3  4 MR. MACKENZIE: I know where Gitangas is, but that's not where  5 it says on that map. That's why I have a little  6 difficulty with it.  7 MR. GRANT: They weren't marked draft maps for nothing.  8 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Well, just get on with this. I will go  9 onto a new subject.  10  11 (OFF THE RECORD)  12  13 Q  Do you know a creek whose English name is Gitangas  14 Creek?  15 MR. GRANT: That's a hard question.  16 THE INTERPRETER: He said it was in English Gitangas, and he  17 asked me what the English name was, and then I said  18 you said Gitangas as in English, which is in our  19 language. He doesn't know.  20 MR. GRANT: Gitangas is in Gitksan.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q  Do you know a creek with the name Gitangas?  23 A  No.  24 Q  Do you know the mountain Maxhla Lax Uut?  25 MR. GRANT: Referring to number 7 under mountain on page 13 of  26 Exhibit 605.  27 THE WITNESS:  Are you talking about where is the Skeena now?  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 9 Q  Yes.  30 A  No, I don't recall this name.  31  32 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  33 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  34  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay. I am going to record, as I discussed  36 with Mr. Grant, my intention to file certain  37 interrogatories relating to the territories or to the  38 general area, and discussed in Mr. Blackwater's  39 affidavit, Exhibit 605. I will be filing the  40 interrogatory of Luus, Jeffery Harris, with  41 interrogatory 59C, and one of the two maps attached to  42 that interrogatory showing the -- relating to the Xsi  43 Lax Uu Ando'o territory.  44 MR. GRANT: Which affidavit --  45 MR. MACKENZIE: And I'll file the affidavit.  46 MR. GRANT:  If you want, you can say the first or the second of  47 the two. 44  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE: I will be filing both affidavits, the first and  2 second affidavit.  3 MR. GRANT: And 59C did you say?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  5 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  6 MR. MACKENZIE: I will be filing the affidavit of William  7 Blackwater, Baskyelaxhaa, dated February 15, 1987, and  8 interrogatory 59C, and the map, schedule C, attached  9 to the interrogatories. I will be filing  10 interrogatory of Niist, David Blackwater. David  11 Blackwater's affidavit dated January 29, 1987 and  12 interrogatory 59C.  13 MR. GRANT: There is no map attached.  14 MR. MACKENZIE: No map. I will be filing the interrogatory of  15 Kliiyem lax haa, Martha Brown, consisting of an  16 affidavited dated January 27, 1987, interrogatory 59C,  17 and the map which is schedule C to the  18 interrogatories. Okay.  19  20 (OFF THE RECORD)  21  22 MR. GRANT:  In order to expedite matters, Mr. Mackenzie wished  23 to record the interrogatories that he intends to file.  24 I understand that he's not intending to question Mr.  25 Blackwater with respect to those interrogatories, and  26 of course I haven't had a chance to review each of  27 them and the answer, and I will reserve the right  28 to -- reserve the right to either object to filing  2 9 them as exhibits at trial for any reasons that may  30 become apparent in the future, or to bring to the  31 attention of the court any co-relating matters --  32 questions that should be part of it. In other words,  33 I haven't reviewed them, but this is basically the  34 notice of intention of Mr. Mackenzie to file, and I  35 just didn't want the record to show that I have  36 consented to the filing of those until this time that  37 I have reviewed them, and I reserve that right to  38 object when they are tendered at trial.  3 9 MR. MACKENZIE:  40 Q  Okay. I am placing before you a photocopy -- oh, here  41 it is here. Placing before you a document entitled  42 application for registration of a trapline dated June  43 4, 1951 with what appears to be your signature on it.  44 That is Provincial document AGBC -- Provincial  45 document 3293. A copy was delivered to the plaintiffs  46 with May 18, 1988 Notice of Admit.  47 MR. GRANT: 3293 just this document, or is it just one file or 45  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 is it a whole series of files?  2 MR. MACKENZIE: It deals with one trapline. There were several  3 documents in there.  4 MR. GRANT: So it's one trapline file?  5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. I have a copy of that.  6 THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's my signature.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Have that marked as an exhibit please.  8  9 (EXHIBIT THREE FOR IDENTIFICATION -  10 APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION OF TRAPLINE DATED  11 JUNE 4, 1951)  12  13 Q  I am placing before you a document entitled return of  14 registered trapline holder dated May 20, 1953 with  15 what appears to be your signature. And that's from  16 Provincial document 3293.  17 MR. GRANT: And what is your question? Is that his signature?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q  Yes.  20 A  Yes, it's mine.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mark that as being the next exhibit please.  22  23 (EXHIBIT NO. FOUR - RETURN OF REGISTERED  24 TRAPLINE HOLDER DATED MAY 20, 1953)  25  26 Q  That is -- you have a registered trapline?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  Part of that registered trapline is in the Damdochax  2 9 territory?  30 A  No.  31 Q  Part of your registered trapline is in the Gwinin  32 Nixtw, Slamgeesh area?  33 A  No.  34 Q  Part of your registered trapline is in the  35 Baskyelaxhaa territory?  36 MR. GRANT: The territory described in the --  37 MR. MACKENZIE: Baskyelaxhaa territory described in his  38 territory.  3 9 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, I said Kliiyem lax haa.  40 MR. GRANT: The Baskyelaxhaa territory described in his  41 affidavit.  42 THE WITNESS:  No. He has his own territory.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q  Your registered trapline runs from the Skeena River to  45 the Nass River?  46 A  Yes.  47 Q  The Slamgeesh River is the boundary of your registered 46  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 trapline?  2 A  No.  3 Q  The Skeena River is a boundary of your registered  4 trapline?  5 A  Could you make it clear to me which territory you are  6 referring to now, so it would be quite clear to what  7 you are talking about?  8 Q  I am speaking about your registered trapline.  9 A  It's past Dam Duutsxwhl. This is where my registered  10 trapline is.  11 Q  And your registered trapline goes along the Skeena  12 River?  13 A  No.  14 Q  Your registered trapline goes down to the third cabin?  15 A  No.  16 Q  Your registered trapline goes to the fourth cabin?  17 A  No. It's different.  18 Q  Part of your registered trapline is in the Damdochax  19 territory?  20 A  No.  21 Q  Do you trap in the Damdochax territory?  22 A  I was born there and I did trap there when my father  23 was still alive.  24 Q  Have you trapped in the Damdochax territory since your  25 father passed away?  26 A  No.  27 Q  Did the Department of Indian Affairs buy the  28 registered trapline for you?  2 9   MR. GRANT:  Which one?  30 MR. MACKENZIE: That we have been speaking about.  31 MR. GRANT: Would you mind then saying did they buy the  32 registered trapline -- okay, put it on the record.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q  Did the Department of Indian Affairs buy the  35 registered trapline for you?  36 MR. GRANT:  It's referred to in Exhibit 3.  37 THE WITNESS:  Okay.  It's -- the reason why this was registered  38    was because there was white people fighting over this  39 area, which -- this is not my territory, but I  40 registered it because I didn't want any of the white  41 people to be fighting over this territory. And I  42 don't hardly go over there.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q  I'm showing you a letter dated February 9, 1979, a  45 copy of that letter with what appears to be your  46 signature on it. Is that your signature?  47 MR. GRANT:  I think the witness -- I think that the interpreter 47  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 should have an opportunity to translate the letter to  2 the witness, so he knows what it says before he  3 answers. Just so he knows what the letter is, in  4 terms of knowing whether that's the letter that he  5 signed.  6 THE WITNESS:  This letter I tried to explain before when I was  7 asked about that trapline. This letter was only to  8 protect that territory which was going to be destroyed  9 by the white people, and I did not want to see this.  10 And this is -- I told the Indian Department, and this  11 is why they bought this place. And it doesn't belong  12 to me.  It still -- the place I registered is right  13 under the telegraph lines that are there. That's  14 straight through. That's the place I registered. And  15 it goes to the Luu Saiyeems Laawxs, it goes as far as  16 there, Luu Saiyeems Laawxs, and then it goes towards  17 Luus territory.  18 Q  Is that your signature on the letter?  19 A  Yes.  20 MR. GRANT:  I don't object to marking this as an exhibit, given  21 that he has described it.  22 THE WITNESS:  It also goes --it goes as far as to sixth cabin.  23    I just want to protect this area, and this is the  24 reason why it's registered. I have never gone there  25 ever since.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Exhibit 5.  27  28   (EXHIBIT NO. 5 - LETTER DATED FEBRUARY 9, 1979)  29  30 Q  Just go on the record to say that I handed to Mr.  31 Grant, David Blackwater's trapline registration dated  32 July 18, 1984. And I put that before the witness and  33 I ask Mr. Blackwater, is that David Blackwater's  34 signature?  35 A  No.  36 Q  Does David Blackwater have a registered trapline?  37 A  Are you talking -- are you asking about me or about  38 Niist, David?  39 Q  David. I am asking about David Blackwater, Niist.  40 A  Yes, David is responsible for Niist territory.  41 Q  Does David Blackwater have a registered trapline?  42 A  Not when he didn't have the name Niist. It was after  43 he had the name Niist that it was passed onto --  44 Q  Does David Blackwater have a registered trapline now?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  Is that David Blackwater's signature on that document?  47 A  I don't know whether it's his signature or not. 48  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  Okay. Does William Blackwater have a registered  2 trapline?  3 A  He is responsible for the territory of Baskyelaxhaa.  4 Q  Does William Blackwater have a registered trapline  5 now?  6 A  Maybe he does.  I don't know.  7 Q  Is David Blackwater's registered trapline -- does  8 David Blackwater's registered trapline have the same  9 boundaries as Niist's territory?  10 MR. GRANT: There is two Niist territories in his affidavit.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q  Xsi Luu Witwiidid.  13 THE INTERPRETER: Could you phrase that question again.  14 Q  Does David Blackwater's registered trapline have the  15 same boundaries as the Niist territory, Xsi Luu  16 Witwiidid?  17 A  Xsi Luu Witwiidid is a vast area, and Gibeumget has  18 territory -- he's responsible for part of the  19 territory there, but Xsi Luu Witwiidid is a vast area,  20 and I'll just mention the creeks and the rivers that  21 are there. I told you about this -- these -- about  22 the territory yesterday.  23 Q  Could you tell him I'm asking about the registered  24 trapline.  25 THE INTERPRETER:  I think he misunderstood my question. He is  26 explaining how the features are of the --  27 MR. GRANT: Well, can you put on the record what he just said.  28 THE WITNESS:  I finished describing Maxhla Nihl Tsenden. I  29 finished that. The Maxhla Nihl Tsenden Ando'o, the  30 creek, comes this way, and it goes into the Nass  31 River, and on the other side is the -- is another  32 creek, Xsi Luu Witwiidid. It's almost across each  33 other. And then the Xsi Luu Witwiidid goes from the  34 swamp like place, it goes to Luu Silgim Baad  35 Xsitxemsem. It goes along the Luu Silgim Baad  36 Xsitxemsem, and I am just talking about the waters  37 * now.  It -- after this it goes back to Luu Silgim Baad  38 Xsitxemsem*. It goes -- it goes and passes seven,  3 9    eight and nine cabins.  It passes -- you will see  40 where the boundary of the Telegraph Creek is. I  41 really want to make this clear to all of you. I've  42 explained it before. It passes seven, eight and nine  43 and then it passes the cabins and it passes the ninth  44 cabin, and then it reaches another creek. It goes  45 to -- it reaches the place known as Xsitxemsem Ando'o.  46 Q  Sto'ot Xsitxemsem?  47 A  Yes. 49  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT: Just be clear -- just clarify that. You said  2 Xsitxemsem Ando'o --  3 THE INTERPRETER: River known as or creek whatever it is.  4 MR. GRANT: Known as Sto'ot Xsitxemsem or Xsitxemsem?  5 THE INTERPRETER: Still the same no matter how you say it.  6 THE WITNESS: What I want to make clear is that it passes the  7 ninth cabin and then it reaches the boundary of the  8 Telegraph Creek boundary. On the Sto'ot Xsitxemsem  9 there is the boundary for the Stikine people. We are  10 turning back to ninth cabin from Sto'ot Xsitxemsem.  11 There is -- the boundary goes up like this, and the  12 reason for that is what -- I'll tell you what my  13 grandmother told me.  14 What happened is one of the relatives were sent to  15 go hunting on that area, and one of the Stikine people  16 murdered this person. They went and confronted the  17 Stikine people why did they kill him. I gave him the  18 permission to go hunting on my territory. And when  19 they were confronted, they made a compensation, which  20 is known as Xsiisxw. That's why the boundary is out  21 like this, because of the --it didn't belong to us to  22 begin with, but because of the murder it was a payment  23 from the Stikine people. Do you know what I am  24 talking about?  25 Q  Yes. Thank you very much. Does David Blackwater trap  26 at ninth cabin?  27 A  Yes, he traps there. It's parts of the Xsiluu  28 Witwiidid, and then it goes to Luu Silgim Baad.  2 9 Q  Does David Blackwater trap at eighth cabin?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  Does David Blackwater trap at seventh cabin?  32 A  Yes, probably. It's not that far from eighth. I  33 mentioned Luu Silgim Baad Xsitxemsem, this is all  34 Niist territory.  35 Q  Do you --  36 A  And it goes right to that place where they had the  37 Xsiisxw house I talking to you about.  38 Q  In your mind is there any difference between the  39 registered trapline and Niist's territory boundaries?  40 MR. GRANT: Well, you mean are the boundaries -- I don't think  41 the question can -- I don't think the question is  42 objectionable, but all it does is -- there is no  43 evidence that Mr. Blackwater has seen any description  44 or could even read a description of a registered  45 trapline on a piece of paper. So I think that when  46 you say in his mind, it's where as far as he in his  47 opinion it's the same.  It's his understanding is the 50  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 same.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q  Without telling me the boundaries -- don't tell me the  4 boundaries. Don't tell me the boundaries. Do you  5 know the boundaries of David Blackwater's registered  6 traplines? He can say yes or no.  7 A  I know what you are talking about now.  8 Q  Yes, he knows.  9 THE INTERPRETER: I'll ask him this way. You said -- but I just  10 put it altogether.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  What are you asking him Ali?  12 THE INTERPRETER:What you're saying is Niist's territory, not --  13 you said don't tell me the boundary of David -- well,  14 Niist is David Blackwater.  I know the registered  15 trapline, uh-huh, but I think he is just putting them  16 two together.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, he is.  That's why we are going around and  18 around.  19 MR. GRANT: You have only gone around twice.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am going around.  21 MR. GRANT: Once. But I think that -- but just for the record,  22 so it's clear that Mrs. Sampson in the -- in her  23 translation of that question stated registered  24 trapline to him, and I think we all heard that, so it  25 wasn't that she asked for the territory. But now she  26 is explaining when she gets his answer that she  27 understands his answer. He is referring to the  28 territory of Niist and of course Niist is David  2 9 Blackwater. You are asking for a registered trapline  30 and he is referring to the territory of Niist, but in  31 her translation of her question she did refer to  32 registered trapline.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q  Yes. Now, here is -- could you see whether he can  35 answer this question yes or no, please, subject to Mr.  36 Grant's concerns. I just want a yes or no to this  37 question. Do you know the creek known as Xsi Maxhla  38 Biluust Maawxs?  3 9 A  Yes, I seen it.  40 Q  Thank you.  41 MR. GRANT: Leave well enough alone.  42 THE INTERPRETER: He is saying "Are they going to listen to us  43 now?"  44 MR. GRANT: You can record there is laughter all around the  45 table.  46 MR. MACKENZIE: I just have one more question.  47 Q  Could you ask him if possibly whether he could answer 51  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 this question yes or no. Does David Blackwater trap  2 north of Xsi Maxhla Biluust Maawxs?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  Thank you very much.  5 MR. GRANT: I think he understood that you were here to ask the  6 questions to determine whether he really knew these  7 boundaries, and that's why he went on. When you were  8 asking questions to be sure he knew that he - - what he  9 was talking about.  10 MR. MACKENZIE: You don't mind if I could -- could I say  11 something off the record to compliment him? Or I'll  12 say it on the record. You do appear to know the  13 boundaries very well. Thank you very much for giving  14 me all that detail.  15  16   CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  17  18 Q  Mr. Blackwater, while we are on the subject of the  19 story that your grandmother told you about the  20 compensation for the murder, I would like to ask you  21 just a couple of questions about that story.  22 A  Okay.  23 Q  When you were telling Mr. Mackenzie that story, you  24 said that your grandmother told you that a relative of  25 yours went hunting. Can you explain to me  26 approximately where the relative went hunting when the  27 Stikine person murdered him?  28 MR. GRANT: So where he was when he was killed?  2 9   MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  30 A  Okay. You see where the boundary goes up like this,  31 and I mentioned ninth cabin. Well, it's close about  32 there where it was inside the territory. And after  33 they've murdered him, this -- it was close to ninth  34 cabin. After they have murdered him they gave him  35 that piece of land that goes up for compensation, and  36 they also have a name with that compensation, gave a  37 name with the compensation.  38 Q  What was the name?  3 9 A  Gas Aguun. This is the name that the Stikine people  40 gave to Niist House, and this is the only reason why  41 this House has that name -- this is the only reason  42 why Niist House has this name Gas Aguun, because it  43 was given with the compensation of the land.  44 Q  Yes. You have mentioned that it was near ninth cabin,  45 but can you tell me what the boundaries of the area  46 that was given in compensation are?  47 A  That's the only way I could explain to you, that it 52  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 goes around like this from that territory. It's a  2 piece that goes around sticking out.  3 MR. GRANT: Indicating a bulge of the territory.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q  Have you ever been to the area that you are  6 describing?  7 A  I went with Peter Shanoss there when he was still  8 alive. And this is the name that they -- that was  9 given to Peter Shanoss, Gas Aguun, and with that piece  10 of territory also given to him.  11 Q  Have you ever attended a meeting with Tahltan people  12 where this story was told?  13 A  It's -- yes, they did, but I -- it's too -- it's a  14 long, long time ago. I wasn't even born at that time  15 when they did have.  16 Q  Okay.  17 A  They did have -- have a meeting.  18 Q  As far as you have been told is there was a meeting a  19 long time ago before you were born?  20 A  Yes, they just told me this, but we didn't call it a  21 meeting, we called it a little Liligit, which is a  22 feast.  23 Q  And that was when the compensation was paid, is that  24 correct?  25 A  Yes, that's correct.  26 Q  And in your lifetime you have never attended a meeting  27 where that same story or his story was recounted or  28 retold?  29 A  No, but it's clear to them what happened.  30 Q  How do you know that it is clear to them what  31 happened?  32 A  My grandmother told me that they had a feast to pass  33 this over.  34 Q  Okay. I want to talk now about the Niist genealogy,  35 the members of the House of Niist.  I want to refer  36 you to interrogatories answered by David Blackwater,  37 Niist, about the members of the House of Niist. In  38 the interrogatory addressed to David Blackwater he was  3 9    asked to identify the hereditary chiefs -- I won't go  40 on. It's question 32. In the course of answering a  41 question about hereditary chiefs, David Blackwater  42 listed the chiefs in the House of Niist, and I would  43 like to read those to you.  44 A  Okay.  45 Q  The chiefs named by David Blackwater as being chief in  46 the House of Niist are yourself, Walter Blackwater,  47 John Blackwater, Billy Blackwater, Charlotte McCarthy. 53  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 And if we stop there, those are yourself and some of  2 your brothers and sisters, is that correct?  3 A  Yes.  4 MR. GRANT: Before you proceed, I want to note for the record  5 that in listing the members of the House of Niist,  6 which is one of the other answers, David Blackwater  7 does not refer to Billy Blackwater as a member of his  8 House.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay. I am going to discuss that indirectly  10 at least.  11 MR. GRANT:  Sure.  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  13 Q  Are each of the brothers and sisters that we have just  14 referred to a chief in the House of Niist to your  15 knowledge?  16 A  Everyone in Niist's House, and Billy was in Niist's  17 House. And until he took the name Baskyelaxhaa --  18 before he took the name Baskyelaxhaa they had a  19 meeting, the House of Baskyelaxhaa and the House of  20 Niist, and this was when the decision was made that  21 Billy will hold the name Baskyelaxhaa. But it's still  22 quite a close family.  23 Q  Yes. The next person listed as chief in the House of  24 Niist is Ambrose Stewart senior.  25 A  Yes, he's the one that holds the name Gas Aguun.  26 Q  And then Wallace Johnson is next?  27 A  Yes, Gaiyimlaxhaa is his name.  28 Q  And he is a member of the House of Niist?  2 9 A  Yes.  30 Q  And the next is Jessie Green?  31 A  No.  32 Q  Jessie Green is not a chief in the House of Niist?  33 A  No.  34 Q  And not a member of the House of Niist?  35 A  No.  36 Q  What about Murphy Green?  37 A  No.  38 Q  Not a chief and not a member in the House of Niist, is  3 9    that correct?  40 A  There may be chiefs, but from a different House.  41 Q  What about Barlow?  42 A  No.  43 Q  My confusion is that the names that I just read to  44 you, Jessie Green, Murphy Green and Barlow Green, are  45 mentioned by David Blackwater as being chiefs in the  46 House of Niist, but their names do not appear on the  47 genealogy which was delivered recently, but dated 54  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 January 20th, 1988. And as I understand your  2 evidence, they are neither chiefs in the House of  3 Niist nor members of the House of Niist, am I correct?  4 MR. GRANT: Are you asking a question out of that?  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I just said was I correct.  6 A  Yes, that's right, they are in a different House.  7 Q  Do you know what House they are in?  8 A  I remember there is two chiefs in this House that --  9 Axmoogasxw's House, and another chief which I can't  10 recall right now. This is where Jessie Green belonged  11 or are members of.  12 Q  Does he mean Jessie Murphy and Barlow or --  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  And you have told me that Wallace Johnson is a chief  15 in the House of Niist, but I don't see Wallace Johnson  16 on the genealogy of Niist. Should Wallace Johnson be  17 on the genealogy of Niist?  18 A  Wallace Johnson was adopted from Niist House to begin  19 with. He was brought up by Mark Johnson and his wife,  20 and after Mark Johnson and his wife passed on, then he  21 was taken back into Niist House, which he is holding  22 my uncle's name today.  23 Q  And so can you tell me by name the persons to whom  24 Wallace Johnson is related in the House of Niist?  25 A  I take him as a brother today because he's the one  26 that is holding my uncle's name. His name is  27 Gaiyimlaxhaa. He is holding the name Gaiyimlaxhaa  28 today.  2 9 Q  Can you not recall at this time who his mother was?  30 MR. GRANT: His natural mother?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  If she was in the House of Niist, yes.  32 THE WITNESS:  No, I don't know. His mother died a long time  33 ago.  34 MR. GRANT: Okay. I want to just put on the record that I  35 didn't want to do it until you finished your  36 questioning on that area, but this affidavit of David  37 Blackwater, the interrogatory answer is dated January  38 29th, 1987. It was referred to on Monday during the  39 cross-examination of Neil B. Sterritt, and I believe  40 it was even filed as an exhibit. That he  41 supplements --he filed a later affidavit, that is  42 Neil Sterritt senior did, in which he referred to the  43 members of his House, correcting his earlier list of  44 members, and included in the members of his House by  45 the May, 1987 affidavit were the three persons, Jessie  46 Green, Murphy Green and Barlow Green, as well as  47 others. 55  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 I want to say that it will probably -- I want to say  2 for the record that any failure to file a similar  3 supplementary affidavit of David Blackwater at that  4 time amending his House members to delete not only  5 those three people but the other Greens that are  6 referred to on his Schedule A, the other people, was  7 through inadvertence of counsel, and obviously that  8 would have clarified an area that you have raised  9 questions on. But I will say for the record that it  10 is my understanding, and that there is no dispute or  11 question about it from the information I have, that  12 those members, the Greens and other members that are  13 referred to on Schedule A of the Niist House members  14 and are later referred to in the correcting affidavit  15 of Wii Gaak of Neil Sterritt senior, they should have  16 been deleted.  17 Those are my instructions from both sides, and I  18 wanted you to have your opportunity to ask the  19 questions, of course, but the failure to file the  20 correcting affidavit of David Blackwater was through  21 inadvertence. We thought we had corrected the matter  22 by filing the corrected affidavit of Wii Gaak. But  23 there is not to be any intention that those people  24 were included in both Houses. There was some error at  25 the time. And those comments don't apply to Wallace  26 Johnson, and both Mr. Sterritt and Mr. Blackwater has  27 explained the history of Mr. Johnson.  28 MS. KOENGISBERG:  29 Q  I would now like to ask you some questions about an  30 area in which you have already given some evidence of  31 your employment history and your life growing up in  32 Damdochax area. You will excuse my pronounciation.  33 You have told us you were born in 1923, and that you  34 were born and grew up in the area of Blackwater Lake,  35 correct?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  You also told us that you worked in Prince Rupert for  38 about 36 years ending in 1984, is that correct?  3 9 A  Yes, it's right. It's a seasonal job. I would finish  40 there within about three months, then I would go back  41 with my father to the Blackwater area.  42 Q  Okay. I want to ask you about that, but I'm going to  43 try and clarify the time period so that we don't get  44 mixed up. My arithmetic puts you starting your time  45 of going to Prince Rupert in about 1948, shortly after  46 the war, is that correct?  47 A  Yes, I think so. 56  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  And you mentioned that during the time that you worked  2 in Prince Rupert you came back to Kispiox regularly  3 until your mother died, is that correct?  4 MR. GRANT: He just said that he came back to the territory.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Okay. Peter, if I may, I would like to leave  6 it at Kispiox. That's what he said before, and I am  7 certainly going to explore. I think we can reconcile  8 the whole thing.  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  And when you came back -- when you said that you came  11 back to Kispiox, you also said that you went while  12 your father was alive, you still went back and trapped  13 with your father?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  Okay. And did you always trap during that period of  16 time? And I understand your father died in 1966, is  17 that correct?  18 A  Yes.  19 Q  Okay. So between 1948, approximately, and 1966, when  20 you went back after finishing the round in -- at the  21 coast, did you go back and trap with your father in  22 the area of Blackwater Lake?  23 THE INTERPRETER: Would you say that again please.  24 Q  Between 1948 and 1966, when you came back and went  25 trapping with your father, was it in the area of  26 Blackwater Lake?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  Did you trap in any other area in those years?  2 9   MR. GRANT: With his father or with anybody?  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  31 Q  With anybody.  32 A  Like I said before, that Niist has vast area and this  33 area is broken up -- the territory is broken up so a  34 person is responsible for a certain part, and I went  35 with different people on this territory, including  36 Peter Shanoss, who I mentioned. This is -- I'm  37 talking now about our own family, our close family  38 that I am talking about now.  39 Q  All right. And you say that Niist is a vast  40 territory, as indeed it is. Was it -- was your  41 trapping confined to within the territorial boundaries  42 that you have described of Niist?  43 MR. GRANT: When his father was alive?  44 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  45 Q  Yes.  46 A  When my father was still alive -- I told you before  47 where I was brought up and where I was born. This is 57  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 a place that I -- where I was brought up until I was  2 grown, I was quite grown up, able to work when -- this  3 how long I stayed there, and this territory is --  4 belonged to a family. Like Niist has his own  5 territory that belongs to our family, and this one  6 belongs to another family.  7 Q  Yes. You've talked about staying in the area of  8 Damdochax or Blackwater Lake until you were almost  9 grown. Do you mean about the age of 15 when you went  10 to Prince Rupert for part of the year?  11 MR. GRANT: Just a second. 25 according to my calculation.  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG: You are right. Yes. Thank you.  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  And you lived in the Blackwater Lake area with your  15 entire family until you were about 25, or as many  16 members of your family as were alive?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  And why at approximately the age of 25 did you leave  19 that area to go to the coast to fish during part of  20 the year?  21 THE INTERPRETER:  I am asking what -- I don't understand one  22 Indian word, and he is going to explain to me.  I am  23 trying to clarify what he is saying by Gantsitsox.  24 A  Okay. The reason why I went there is that I went  25 there for survival to work for myself, to be  26 independent.  27 MR. GRANT: What does that word mean that you were asking?  28 THE INTERPRETER: Uh-huh. Living. You know, living.  29 MS. KOENGISBERG:  30 Q  You have also said that after 1974, after your mother  31 died, you came back to the Kispiox area less often, is  32 that correct?  33 A  Yes, that's right.  34 Q  And why was that?  35 A  I was feeling quite bad because of the death of my  36 mother, and I had made up my mind that I wasn't going  37 to come back altogether, but this is the reason I came  38 back once in awhile. And I feel bad because I am  3 9    thinking of it now.  40 MS. KOENGISBERG:  Those are all the questions that I have.  41 Thank you very much, Mr. Blackwater.  42  43   EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  44  45 Q  Mr. Blackwater, you were asked about whether -- you  46 were asked about the letter of 1908, I believe it's  47 Exhibit 1, and the feast books, and you said an answer 58  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 that has just been recently that things have been  2 written down.  In the old days was everything told in  3 the Feast House? Are the territories still described  4 in the Feast House today?  5 MR. MACKENZIE: I object to that question. I request Mr. Grant  6 to instruct the witness not to answer the question.  7 MR. GRANT: Your objection is noted. Go ahead.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:And before Mrs. Sampson answers, I would like to  9 record right now that when I object the question gets  10 answered, when Mr. Grant objects the witness answers  11 the question -- I'm sorry, when I object the witness  12 answers the question --  13 MR. GRANT: Mr. Mackenzie. Let Mrs. Sampson relate -- can you  14 translate the answer.  15 THE WITNESS: It's just been recently that these things have been  16 written down, and if you go to feasts towards Skeena  17 Crossing there, what they do is they don't really  18 write anything down, they just show the items that are  19 brought in, and they mention how much is brought in  20 and who brought it in and this is how it was done.  21 Q  Okay.  22 A  This is what -- this is what they did in the ancient  23 times, they just call out the items that are brought  24 in, and it wasn't written down back then. It's just  25 recently that these things are written down.  26 Q  You were asked by Mr. Mackenzie if Baskyelaxhaa's  27 territory was south of Luu Lax Loobit. How close to  28 Luu Lax Loobit is Baskyelaxhaa's territory?  2 9 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to that question.  30 MR. GRANT: Your objection is noted.  31 MR. MACKENZIE: And I request Mr. Grant to instruct the witness  32 not to answer.  33 MR. GRANT: The objection is noted.  34 MR. MACKENZIE: I would like to record right now that when I  35 object the question gets answered, when Mr. Grant  36 objects the witness doesn't answer the question.  37 MR. GRANT:  I think it's -- I think that the practise we have  38 developed all week is that your objection is noted,  3 9 and the reason why I interjected was it was totally  40 unfair what you did the last time. When the witness  41 gave an answer in Gitksan, it's unfair to the  42 interpreter for you to interject between the Gitksan  43 answer and her translation.  44 MR. MACKENZIE: My comment was when you object to my questions,  45 Mr. Grant.  46 MR. GRANT: Okay. If you want to catch the plane, I think your  47 objection is noted and we should just get on it. 59  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 MR. MACKENZIE: When you object to my question, you prevent the  2 witness from answering my question, rather than just  3 having your objection noted. When I object to the  4 question, you allow the witness to go ahead.  5 MR. GRANT: Well, it's a question of redirect, whether I am  6 entitled to ask the question on redirect, and that's a  7 question that ultimately has to be decided by the  8 judge. The reason I objected to your questions is  9 because -- where I had said to the witness not to  10 answer, is where you have mistakenly restated his  11 evidence. And I think then it's improper to put to  12 the witness something that was not said.  13 Now, if we can go on. Maybe, Madam Reporter, you  14 can read back my question.  15  16 (QUESTION READ BACK BY REPORTER)  17  18 A  Which part are you talking about? Do I have to go  19 back to Maxhla Nihl Tsenden?  20 Q  No.  I will try the question again. How far from Luu  21 Lax Loobit is Baskyelaxhaa' s territory? If you can  22 just --  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to the question.  24 MR. GRANT:  It's noted.  25 A  Okay. This is what I'll tell you. There is this --  26 there is a lot of places known as Luu Lax Loobit which  27 describes the territories, and Luu Lax Loobit is not  28 close to Baskyelaxhaa's territory.  2 9 Q  Okay. You were asked by Mr. Mackenzie about a  30 discussion you had in May, 1983 with Mr. Sterritt, and  31 you were asked some questions that are referred to in  32 a topographic data sheet of Mr. Sterritt's. Did  33 you -- after May, 1983 did you go on the Wii Minosik  34 territory with Mr. Sterritt?  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to the question.  36 THE WITNESS:  Do you mean recently?  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q  Yes, in the last five years since May, 1983.  3 9 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to the question.  40 THE WITNESS:  Yes, we went there.  41 MR. GRANT:  42 Q  Okay. Did you show him these boundaries?  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to the question?  44 THE WITNESS:  Yes, I showed him.  45 MR. GRANT:  46 Q  Okay. You were asked about where your brother David  47 Blackwater traps. You were asked if he trapped at 60  W. Blackwater (for Plaintiffs;  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 sixth cabin, and Mr. Mackenzie went on with a few  2 other questions. If David is travelling north from  3 the direction of Luu Silgim Baad Txemsem towards Xsi  4 Maxhla Biluust Maawxs, does he cross Xsi Maxhla  5 Biluust Maawxs when he crosses?  6 MR. MACKENZIE: I object to the question.  7 *THE WITNESS:  Okay.  I have answered this already so many times  8 for where the Niist territory starts from. Niist  9 territory starts just above Xsi Galliixawit. It goes  10 along the Xsi Luu Witwiidit, it goes to Luu Silgim  11 Baad Xsitxemsem. It goes over where the place known  12 as Maxhal Dox Hla Genx Wii Gwiik. It goes to the Xsi  13 Maxhla Biluust Maawxs, and then it follows that. And  14 then it goes right to the boundary where the --of the  15 Stikine people. I finish the territory please now.  16 That's not only -- I am just taking a short cut with  17 Niist territory, since you asked me about it. It's  18 just a short cut. Just explaining.  19 Q  I understand that. Does David Blackwater when he  20 traps, trap on the other side of Xsi Maxhla Biluust  21 Maawxs? I am asking him when he traps. I am not  22 asking you about the boundaries.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to that question. In fact I object  24 very strongly to that question.  25 THE WITNESS:  It doesn't go past Maxhla Biluust Maawxs. There  26 is the range of mountains -- the mountain tops.  27 That's where -- just a little past Xsi Maxhla Biluust  28 Maawxs, and that's the boundary of the Stikine people.  29 MR. GRANT:  I have no further questions on redirect.  Thank you,  30 Mr. Blackwater.  31  32  33 (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED)  34  35 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  36 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  37 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  38 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  39  40    41 LORI OXLEY  42 OFFICIAL REPORTER  43 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  44  45  46  47


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