Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Bazil and Josephine Michell Vol. 3] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 15, 1986

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 3-104  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  VICTOR WILLIAM JIM,  Wet'suwet'en Interpreter,  Previously Affirmed:  BAZIL MICHELL, a Witness called  on behalf of the Plaintiffs,  Previously Affirmed:  JOSEPHINE MICHELL, a Witness  called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs, Previously Affirmed    UPON COMMENCING AT 10.20 a.m. 15 MAY, 1986  MS. MANDELL: This is the continuation of the Commission Evidence  of Bazil Michell. It is May 15th. Present is Bazil  Michell, Josephine Michell, Victor Jim, who is the  translator; Veronica Harper, who is the Court Reporter,  beside her is Tanya Mills, who is helping with the  Wet'suwet'en words. My name is Louise Mandell, I am the  lawyer representing the Plaintiffs in this action on the  Commission. Beside me is Geoff Plant, representing the  province; and Mike MacDonald is present working with the  video tape.  I want to remind both Bazil and Josephine, you're  both still under oath.  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. MANDELL (CONT'D)  Q The last time that We Were talking We were talking about  the registration of the trap lines and I have one more  question to ask before we pass on that subject.  Bazil, were you told by anyone that by registering  your territory it would be protected from being further  taken over by white man?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  No.  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q Bazil, could you name the children for who you have  responsibility to teach about your clan?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE Interpreter: Some of the children who would be taught about 3-105  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  the clan they belong to would be Mary Morrison's children.  They also mentioned Trevor Michell.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: They said that Lawrence's children are from  a different clan.  MR. PLANT: Whose children?  THE INTERPRETER: Lawrence Michell, Josephine's son. And if  they call it, negatdedelgus, those children would be  called negatdedelgus. That means even though they're from  a different clan, they could still hunt and trap on their  territory.  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q WOUld these Children also be the Same Children Who you  would have responsibility to teach about your territory?  A Yes.  Q are there any other children besides the ones which we have  talked about now who you would have responsibility to teach,  about the territory, not about the clan?  JOSEPHINE: Audrey's kids.  THE INTERPRETER: The last name is Muckle -- M-U-C-K-L-E.  That's Trevor's sister.  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q Bazil, is your responsibility greater or lesser or the  same to teach Josephine's children as. . . .I'm sorry, just  a minute.  The question I would like to put it this way, is  your responsibility greater or lesser or the same to  teach Josephine's children as to teach your own children  about your territory and the clan?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  In teaching Josephine's children and the other  children that are named I would teach the same as  Josephine's son. Through teaching them hopefully in the  future they would help us in terms of hunting and trapping  for us.  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q Do you have any responsibility to teach Lizzette's  children?  A It's the Same as Josephine's.  Q Is there any responsibility to teach the children that 3-106  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  Josephine raised but not the ones she birthed?  A It's only right that we teach the children that Josephine  is raising. Through that in the future they would help us  with hunting and trapping and other things.  Q Is there any responsibility to teach Johnny Austin's  children?  A No.  JOSEPHINE: Johnny Austin doesn't have any children, just  Philip Austin.  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q Does Philip Austin have children?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Philip Austin had many children but most of them  are dead. I believe there's just two left and one of them  is Charlie Austin. It's only right that we trap the same  areas all in one clan and there's no problems with trapping  in our territory.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q Your children don't belong to the same clan as you, is that  right?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: My children are not from the same clan as mine.  They're Gilserhyu but they can hunt and trap on my  territory, and when they do that it's called negaldeldus.  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q Is there anybody from the Gilserhyu clan who would have the  responsibility to teach your children about that clan and  that territory?  A It would be up to Josephine and myself to teach my children  about their clan, and they would be able to hunt on our  territory. My son, Eddie Michell, is doing that now. Any  time he shoots a moose or any game it's the game that he  shoots that we eat in this house.  Q Bazil,  if your wife t*ere alive today would she be teaching  your children about their clan?  A If my wife were alive the children would know more about  their clan. It's too bad that she died at an early age  and it's now up to Josephine and myself to teach them about  their clan.  Q Okay. The last time when we were talking, Josephine and 3-107  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  Bazil, both of you were talking to us about when you  trapped and how you trapped and where; as the children  were being raised did any of those children that we talked  about now ever come with you to do the trapping?  JOSEPHINE: Cora, Veronica, Audrey, they all used to go with me  when I went trapping.  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q And Bazil?  A Myself, my sons, Albert, John and Eddie used to go with me  when I went trapping.  Q At What ages did those kids, did they start to go with you  to start trapping?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: I don't know the exact ages they were when they  went out with me. Since I am unable to read and write I  can't recall what their ages were and, if I find out, I'll  let you know tomorrow.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q Maybe, were they small or were they already teenagers?  JOSEPHINE: They were small children.  THE INTERPRETER: They were about eight or nine when they went  with Josephine when she was out trapping.  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q  When the Children first Started to go out trapping with you  is there any jobs that they could do?  JOSEPHINE: When they went out with us we taught them how to  set traps so that in the future they would be able to set  their own traps.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q  Did they --as they grew older after they learned how to  set the traps, is there anything else that they were taught  once they had already learned how to set the traps?  A  We teach them how to trap for marten, and we also teach  them how to trap for animals that are in the waters.  Josephine: I have done the same and the children I mentioned  all know how to trap.  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q When you go trapping, is it true that you also will go  hunting at the same time? 3-108  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  JOSEPHINE:  Yes .  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q  When the Children Were COming with you is there a certain  age when you start to teach them how to use a gun or a  knife:    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE: I told you earlier that the ages when the children  start to learn to hunt and trap, it was around the same  time we let them use guns and handle a knife.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q  Are there any ceremonies or rituals or practices that you  do when a child kills his first animal?  A  When they shoot their first game we teach them how to skin  the animal and how to butcher the meat and how to handle  the meat.  Q  Is there any teachings with respect to the Spiritual world  which is done at that time?  JOSEPHINE:  When they shoot their first game they're taught how  to take care of the animal and Lawrence, my son, knows;  Joseph Michell, my nephew, knows;  and Trevor Michell, my  grandson, is still being taught.  Q  Has the supply of animals that you hunt changed within  your territory within your memory?  JOSEPHINE:  The animals, the animal population has been fluctuating.  In the earlier days there used to be a lot of  deer and the moose came and there was more moose than deer  but now there seems to be a lot more deer than moose.  So  the population of the animals has been fluctuating up and  down.  Q  Is there anything that you can tell us about how you teach  your children how to find the animals depending upon the  fluctuating population?  A  When we go hunting or when we teach our children to hunt  we teach our children to use all the meat of the animal.  We teach them not to waste any meat and it is the older,  bigger animals that have contributed to the fluctuation of  the animal population, like the timber wolf and the grizzly  would kill off some of these smaller animals.  Q  What signs do you teach your children to look for to know  on a particular day where would be a good place to hunt?  JOSEPHINE: We teach our younger people to hunt animals at  certain times of the year depending on how the meat is,  and we teach them that at this particular time the moose 3-109  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  and the bear have lost most of.their fat therefore they're  not hunted at this time.  So we teach them to hunt animals  at certain parts of the 'tear.  Q   Do you ever - - sorry?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE:  In the summer the salmon is the staple food.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q   Do you ever dream about where to go to hunt?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  I know a little bit about dreaming.  When you  dream of animals you recognize  an area and that is the  area that you go to, and when you get there the deer and  the moose will leave their tracks.  Usually you're  successful at getting game when that happens.  And I have  done that a few times in my life.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q   You mentioned  earlier that maybe the grizzly bear or  timber wolf will influence the deer population;  do you  ever teach your children or do you purposely hunt the  grizzly bear or timber wolf in order to bring more deer  into the area?  A  My son, Eddie Michell, once seen a timber wolf stalking  one of the cows so he shot it.  If a person knows what  he is doing he is more than likely to shoot the grizzly  bear or the timber wolf so that the animal population  will   Q   In the course of trapping do you become aware of the  animal populations and what their state is?  JOSEPHINE: When you're out hunting and trapping you can tell  the state of the animals furs and that is how we have  learned.  Usually in the fall is when the meat and the  moose and deer is good to eat and the furs of the animals  come thicker.  So that is when we hunt for game.  Q  You have mentioned earlier that the populations -- the  deer population and the meat(sic) population have  fluctuated over the time of your life and your memory,  can you say whether or not overall there has become more  or less or the same amount of game available to you?  THE INTERPRETER: What was that again?  MS. MANDELL:  The question was whether or not even if in spite  of the fluctuations if overall there is a change in the 3-110  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  amount of meat that's available to them?  JOSEPHINE: The animal population seems to be less than it was  in the past but we are still successful in getting meat  from the children and grandchildren.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q   You Said in the Summertime you said basically the fish  used by the people and by yourself for food -- first of  all, did you teach your children as well about fishing  as you have talked about having taught them hunting and  trapping?  A  Yes.  Q   Did the Children begin to fish with you at about the same  age as when they go hunting and trapping?  A  Yes.  Q   And are there    A   They're taught everything so that they could live a good  life, so that is one of the reasons why we teach them as  much as we can even at an early age.  Q   What jobs could the little ones do when they go fishing?  A  The children are taught how to prepare the salmon so that  it can be used for the winter. Some of the salmon is  smoked and dried and they're taught how to do that.  Q  Do both the male and female, the boys and girls, the  children, both of them actually learn how to net or fish  salmon?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE:  Both the males and females are taught through  observation.  They watch how we fish for salmon, how we  prepare them, and through that they learn how to fish  and prepare salmon for the winter.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q   Is there any ceremony or celebration when a child catches  his or her first fish?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE:  When the first salmon is caught, that first salmon  would be cut up and shared with all your neighbours.  THe INTERPRETER:  Josephine gives an example, if Lawrence  caught a salmon that salmon would be shared with her  mother, with Bazil and Bazil's son next door. 3-111  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q   Are the children taught any stories about the spiritual  world of the salmon?  JOSEPHINE:  The children at an early age are taught to respect  the animals and the salmon, and they're told stories  about what happens when people have no respect for animals  or salmon. So they're taught at a young age with respect  to the animals and the salmon.  Q   Do you use the same tools or instruments to fish today as  you used to use within your memory?  A   In past days our people used fish traps, in Houston and  all along here.  At Houston, where the bridge crosses the  river, there used to be four fish traps there --  THE INTERPRETER:  --he indicated the length from where he is  sitting to the wall --  THE WITNESS:  They used to make a lot of salmon even though it  was in the woods but now the fish traps are no longer  used.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q   When did the people start using nets?  A  We first started using nets when the Hudson Bay store was  established in Houston.  The Gitksan people began using  it earlier than we did. It was one of the better ways  in which to catch salmon.  Q  Were baskets ever used for fish catching?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE:  In the earlier days there was a plant, about two  feet off the ground.  The Wet'suwet'en name for it was  laylk and that is what was used to make your nets for  fishing for salmon.  Also used for snares to trap your  animals.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q   Did you ever teach any of your children how to make nets  using that plant?  THE INTERPRETER: Laylk?  MS. MANDELL:   Yes.  JOSEPHINE:  We haven't been teaching our young people to use  these plants since nets are readily available.  My mother  used to tell me how they made these nets. They used to  tear them apart and stretch them and then weave them into  nets. 3-112  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q   Is there anybody in your clan who would know how to make  those nets now?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  The females all today do not know how to use this  plant.  When my mother was alive she used to teach other  women how to use this plant for nets and snares.  MS. MANDELL:  All right.  Q  Bazil, do yOu go to the same places today to fish salmon  as when you first became Hattakumex?  A   There used to be many salmon in the canyon but since the  fish ladders were put in, rocks were blasted and the  salmon population has declined.  There are many sports  fishermen, they're sold licences to fish and they catch  quite a few salmon before we get any. Now Josephine  sometimes has to buy her salmon from the Gitksan people  and that's what we share for the winter months.  Q   Do you go to the same places today for your trout or white  fish as when you first became Hattakumex?  A  When my mother was alive I used to catch a lot of salmon  and my mom and Josephine would prepare it for the winter.  I was given a fishing hole down the canyon and that is  where I did my fishing.  Now, one of my sons, Albert, goes down to fish there.  There doesn't seem to be as many salmon as there used  to be.  MS. MANDELL: Did you ask him about the trout and white fish,  if there's a change in the supplying of that kind of fish?  THE WITNESS: Since I've grown older I haven't been fishing for  trout and I don't know if there are many or a few. and  the sports fishermen, when they catch these small trouts  they throw them back in and some are injured and die, and  that has reduced the number of small trout.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q   Are there any places within Hattakumex territory where you  know you used to go for trout but which you can't go to  any more?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: In the old days we used to set nets and fish  traps and we would catch a lot of trout or other salmon  but we don't do that as much today because other people  are claiming the territories 3-113  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q   Where WOUld those nets and fish traps be set?  A  We used to trap the salmon, net the salmon in Barrett Lake,  also the lake of Hie Tait, and there's a bigger lake behind  Grouse Mountain.  My father used to go to  that lake to  trap and net salmon and we didn't go along with him because  we were too small.  The nets and the traps would usually  be set at the creeks flowing from the lakes.  When I was a small boy I used to chase the salmon in  the creeks with a gunnysack and I would pull it out when  it was half full and we used to survive on the salmon.  Not too long ago I went back up to that big lake and there  still seemed to be a lot of salmon in that lake.  Q  Bazil, did you ever give your permission  to the government  to sell your land to the farmers within your territory?  A  The government did not ask me or I did not give them  permission for white people to build farms on my  territory.  Q  Has your house ever given up its rights to any of its  territories,  to your knowledge?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: No.  JOSEPHINE:  No, we didn't.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q   If this Were to be done, if you were to give permission to  the government to sell your land or your house gave up the  rights to the territory, would this be done at the feast  hall?  A   The government has people settling on our territories.  They've logged on our territories.  They haven't given us  any compensation and it is not right that they do this,  and we don't want the government to take any more timber  off our territory.  MS. MANDELL:  all right, we'll change the tape.     SHORT RECESS  JOSEPHINE LEFT AT THIS POINT  MS. MANDELL:  For the record, Art Namox, one of Bazil's grandsons, came in and asked Josephine to leave, which she did,  in order that she could helD prepare and smoke a bear for  a headstone feast, so she won't be here for the remaining  part of the morning. 3-114  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  Q   Bazil, I was asking you whether you or your house has given  permission to the government to sell any of the land within  your territory and I didn't get an answer. I wanted to  know whether or not if you were to give permission for  Hattakumex territory to be sold to the government, would  you have to do -- would you do this at the feast hall?  A   If our land is to be sold or if we give permission, it  hasn't been happening, the government hasn't been asking  our permission, they just go and sell the lands in our  territory.  If it was to he that way then Josephine and  myself should have the first and final say as to how the  land should be handled. We don't want any more white  people taking our land. My son-in-law, Claude le Palm,  has been doing that among the Gitksan people and the  Gitksan have been chasing him off his land, firing above  his head, so they can get him off his land, and we don't  want him to take any part of our territory.  Q   When the White government wishes to talk to the Wet'suwet'en  people about the Wet'suwet'en people or about issues  involving the Wet'suwet'en territory, who is recognized  by the Wet'suwet'en as the proper people to speak to, by  the white government?  A   For an example I would give you, my territory, if the  government wanted to talk about my territory they would  talk to myself and Josephine as well as the elected chief,  Dan Michell, and the church chief, Pat Namox.  Q   I don't Want to put words into his testimony but, if that  same example were given to cover all of the Wet'suwet'en  territory, Bazil, are you saying that the government has  to talk to the hereditary chiefs and elected chiefs and  the church chiefs for each of the different houses?  MR. PLANT:  Well, I think that's leading too far.  MS. MANDELL:  Maybe ask him this way.  Q  Does the example that he gave about his territory as to  who would have to be talked to, are those the same people  who would have to be talked to in each of the Wet'suwet'en  territories?  A   It's the hereditary chiefs who own the territory that  should be spoken to first regarding the lands.  MS. MANDELL: Right.    JOSEPHINE RETURNED AT THIS POINT    OFF THE RECORD  BY MS. MANDELL]  Q  Bazil, earlier many, many weeks ago you told us the story 3-115  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  about Tas Las, who had killed a Nutseni trespasser;  do  you remember telling us that story?  A  Yes, I was told that by my uncle, Johnny Austin, and my  mother and my dad.  Q  Do you know why the Wet'suwet'en didn't treat the white  farmers who came into the territory in the same way as  Tas Las treated the Nutseni trespasser?  JOSEPHINE:  The reason the white people weren't treated the  same, because they made up their own laws and our people  respected the laws and that was why they weren't treated  in the same way.  Q  Are you personally aware, Bazil, of any efforts which the  Wet'suwet'en chiefs took around 1910 to talk to the white  government about protecting specific lands which they  wanted to become safe lands against white settlers?  A  That happened a long time ago and I was young and I don't  remember if there were any such meetings.  MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  THE INTERPRETER: Josephine said, I'm not that old!  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q  Bazil, as Hattakumex, what is your position about whether  those farmers now in your territory should remain there?  MR. PLANT:  You asked that question.  MS. MANDELL: Is that a formal objection?  MR. PLANT:  That's all right.    OFF THE RECORD  THE WITNESS: The government claimed the lands by surveying it  and we don' t want them to do that any more.  They chased  US off our lands in sixty-below weather in the winter --  THE INTERPRETER:  -- and he asked the question, is that the  proper thing to do?  MS. MANDELL: Can I go off the record for a minute?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q  As Hattakumex, what is your position about the establishment of new farms in your territory in the future?  Is  there any feeling which you have about whether a new farm  can be established and, if so, under what conditions?  A  If the government was to establish new farms on my  territory  I think Josephine  and myself and all the  Wet'suwet'en chiefs should get together and discuss this  thoroughly  and only after we say yes or no should there 3-116  MICHELL, B. & J.  In Chief  Ms. Mandell  be any new farms established.  Q   What is your position about the logging which has already  taken place in Hattakumex territory?  A   The government has claimed our land through surveys.  They don't seem to care much for us.  The trap lines are  ours .  The Wet'suwet'en people may want money for the  government logging on their lands.  If there's to be  further logging all the Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan people  and the Nutsenis should get together and discuss this  thoroughly before that happens.  Q   Bazil, I Understand you were ill yesterday and did not  attach the potlatch of Susan Jimmy;  what clan was she?  A   Susan Jimmy was Gitdumden.  Q   Had you contributed to her funeral expenses?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  Gitdumden hired some Laksilyu people to contribute money to pay for the funeral expenses and I myself  am Laksilyu and she was Gitdumden, so in the person's  father's side, tsagelzut, and the same with Josephine,  we put in money for the funeral expenses.  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q   So that was -- I'm sorry?  A  And we are repaid back that money that we put in plus  interest.  Q  Was that because her father was Laksilyu?  JOSEPHINE:  Her father was Laksilyu.  Q  What did you get back at the funeral yesterday?  The  potlatch yesterday?  JOSEPHINe:  We got our money back as well as some other  materials such as clothing, blankets.  Q  Lawrence just delivered a bear    THE INTERPRETER:  No, it was Art.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q  Bazil, since you weren't at the feast, was somebody else  chosen to give back to you what was given to you?  The  money and the goods?  A  Lawrence Michell, Josephine's son.  MS. MANDELL:  It' s a funny way to end, but that is the end.  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION 3-117  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  MS. MANDELL:  Tell him we are going to come back at 2.00  o'clock.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.10 P.M.  UPON RESUMING AT 2.00 P.M.  MR. PLANT:  Basil and Josephine, my name is Geoffery Plant,  and I am sure you already know that I am the government  lawyer and I am going to ask you some questions.  Do you think that needs translating?  THE INTERPRETER:  Maybe I will.  MR. PLANT:  I don't know very much about the ways and the laws  of the Wet'suwet'en people so if my questions sometimes  sound stupid or silly it's because I don't know very much  and you will just have to bear with me. Please tell me  if I ask a question you don't understand.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Bazil, do you know when you were born?  A  Since I am unable to read or write I don't know the exact  date when I was born. The papers that I had that had my  birth date on it were lost in the house fire.  MR. PLANT:  Did Josephine have an answer there?  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine said she was born February 20, 1909  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Does Bazil know how Old he is?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  He is going to show you some identification.  Here he has the Certificate of Indian Status card which  is issued by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.  On this card he has his birth date, the 20th day of the  eighth month, 1898 as birth date.  MR. PLANT: The eighth month?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes.  MR. PLANT: The 20th day?  THE INTERPRETER: The 20th day, 1898.  MR. PLANT: I don't need to see the card. Thank you, Bazil.  Q  Bazil, do you remember where you were born, or have people  told you where you were born? 3-118  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: He said he doesn't know where he was born but  Josephine thinks he was born at Hie Tait, and Josephine  herself was born right here in Moricetown.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Bazil, do you speak any English?  A  Just very little because during my days there was no school  and I was raised out in the woods.  Q  Can you write your name?  A  No.  Q  Josephine, can you speak any English?  JOSEPHINE:   (In English)  No.  Q  That's good enough.  JOSEPHINE:  I understand the English language.  I used to be  able to speak it fluent but since I F,as run over by a car  my mind has been going and I don't speak the English  language that well.  (JOHN IRVING ARRIVED AT THIS POINT)  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. PLANT: I should just indicate that Mr. Irving has appeared  and he is agent for the Attorney-General of Canada.  Q   Josephine, before Mr. Irving came in, I was asking you  about  English, can you write your name in English?  JOSEPHINE:   (In English) Not too good.  Q   You have lots of children to look after, do you?  JOSEPHINE:   (In English) Yes.  Q   Do you speak English with them?  JOSEPHINE:   (In English) Just a little bit.  Q   This morning Louise Mandell was asking about a potlatch,  perhaps it was a funeral feast yesterday for Susan Jimmy  could you ask Bazil and Josephine if it was a funeral  feast?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, a funeral feast.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Josephine,  did you go to the feast?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q  What language is spoken at the feast?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: The same things, very few speak English language 3-119  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  at the feasts. Most of the proceedings is done in our own  language.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Josephine, do the young children that you are raising speak  English or rather do they speak Wet'suwet'en also?  JOSEPHINE: Tracy Michell and Trevor Michell both understand and  speak the language.  Trina and Pat are unable to speak the  Wet'suwet'en language. They understand the language but  they're not able to answer me back when I speak to them.  Q   Bazil, you're from the Laksilyu clan?  A  Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  Ma' means yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   I think you told us a long time ago you come from the  House of Many Eyes, is that the name of your house?  A  Yes.  Q   Who is the head Chief Of that house?  A   It was my father, Lame Arthur Michell, and today it is  Sylvester William.  Q   What is his chief's name? Wet'suwet'en name?  A  Hag Wii Negh.  Q   Are you a chief in the House of Many Eyes?  A  Yes.  We are all in one clan. Whenever there is a death  the clan members help each other to pay for the funeral  expenses.  Q  When there is a feast, who speaks on behalf of Hag Wii  Negh?  Or is there one person who speaks on behalf of  Hag Wii Negh and, if so, who is that person?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  When Hag Wii Negh is not there and is not able  to speak on his own behalf, lately Hag Wii Negh hasn't  been speaking too often at the feasts since he has keen  very ill. When he isn't able to speak it's either  Gitdumskanees  or Wah Tah Keght that is able to speak on  his behalf.  MR. PLANT:  What was the first name?  THE INTERPRETER]  Gitdumskanees.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  If Hag Wii Negh was healthy, would he be the person who  would speak?  A  Yes.  Q  Bazil, would you or you, Josephine, would you ever speak 3-120  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  on behalf of Hag Wii Negh?  Is that a stupid question?  THE WITNESS:   (In English)  Maybe I try talk a lot of time to  help people.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said we do sometimes when we help people.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Does Sylvester Williams have his own territory?  A  When Sylvester was a young man he used to go with the  former Hag Wii Negh but since he has been sick he has not  been going often and the territory that's -- that he holds  is the Telkwa River area.  MR. PLANT:  Telkwa River?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: Bazil was asking Josephine if what he said  was correct and Josephine answered him that it was.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   I think I'm right in saving that that territory is not the  same as Hattakumex territory and I want to be sure?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes, it is different.  Q   If Hag Wii Negh were healthy could he trap on Hattakumex  territory?  A   Yes, he would be able to trap in my territory because he  is like a father to me because he has my father's name.  Q   Would he ask permission before he did that?  A  Yes, both of us, Josephine and I.  Q   He would ask permission of both of you?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   If someone  from another clan wanted to hunt or trap on  your territory, could they do it without asking your  permission?  A  Normally people from other clans would not hunt on my  territory but some people do without asking our permission.  Q   Is that a bad thing?  A  Yes it is a bad thing to do and in the early days people  used to kill each other if you trespassed on each other's  territory,  and Tas Las had killed someone for that very  reason.  Q   People don't kill each other for trespass any more, do  they?  A  No. 3-121  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q   Josephine, are you also Laksilyu?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q   What are the names Of the Other Clans in Moricetown?  JOSEPHINE:  The other clans are Tsayu;  Laksamshu;  Gitdumden;  and Gilserhyu, besides Laksilyu.  Q   Is there a WOrd in English that is close to Laksilyu?  Is  there a meaning for Laksilyu?  THE INTERPRETER:  It's Laksilyu you're asking?  MR. PLANT:   Yes.  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE:  The Laksilyu crests are the Frog and the Mountain  Man, Ta detie and refers to waves when the wind is blowing.  THE INTERPRETER:  You want all the other ones?  MR. PLANT:  Sure -- I don't mean the other clans, I mean  everything else they said. Did you get everything that  they had said.  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  I think my head would break if I tried to worry  about all of the crests of the clans.  Q   Bazil, do you also hold the name Kowakan now?  A  Yes.  Q   Is Kowakan also a chief in the House of Many Eyes?  A  Yes.  Q   Bazil, do you      OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  Kowakan refers to a man that sings and dances  with feathers of the birds.  BY MR. PLANT :  Q  Does Kowakan have a special song?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes it does.  And Kowakan is the song for that name.  Q   Bazil, do you know the names of any of the other chiefs in  the House of Many Eyes?  A   I know the people from my family's side, and then there are  other people from other houses in the Laksilyu clan, such  as Wah Tah Keght.  If there is a death in his family our  house helps and vice-versa.  Q   Wah Tah Keght, is that approximately right?  Is Wah Tah  Keght a chief in the House of Many Eyes or any other  house?  A  He is a hereditary chief from another house in the Laksilyu  clan.  Q   Laksilyu.  Is he the big chief in his house? 3-122  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  A   Yes.  Q   Bazil or Josephine, do you know what the name of his house  is?  A   His house is called Tsekal Kai Ya.  It refers to the house  that they had on a flat rock on the other side of the  present-day bridge.  MR. PLANT:  I beg your pardon?  THE INTERPRETER:  On the other side of the present-day bridge  in the canyon.  MR. PLANT:  That is where his territory is?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, that is where they had their house.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Bazil, do you know where the territory of Wah Tah Keght is?  A  Wah Tah Keght's territory, the boundary used in the east  is the Driftwood Creek.  MR. PLANT:  Is what creek?  THE INTERPRETER:  Driftwood Creek.  MR. PLANT:   Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  And it's on the --  What's this direction?  MR. PLANT:  I think that's south.  MS. MANDELL:  No, I think it's north.  THE INTERPRETER:  So it is north of the Bulkley River, and to  the west the territory goes as far as Arthur Mowat's  territory.  MR. PLANT:  Let me see if I have got that right.  The boundary  on the east is Driftwood  Creek?  THE INTERPRETER:  Right.  MR. PLANT:  The boundary on the north is the Bulkley River?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, that's the south boundary.  MR. PLANT:  South. And the north, the territory goes as far  as Arthur Mowat's territory?  THE INTERPRETER:   The west.  MR. PLANT:  I 'm glad I did that again.  Q   Who is Arthur Mowat?  A   This man lives in Houston.  Q   Is he Gitksan?  A   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  What did Josephine say?  THE INTERPRETER:  They're  called Gitksans.  MR. PLANT:  I've given up trying to pronounce Gitksan!  Q   I asked Bazil a while ago if he knew the names of the  other chiefs in the House of Many Eyes and I think he  said he knew the chiefs on his family's side but I  wanted to know also if 3?e knew their names:  THE INTERPRETER:  Do you want the ones that are alive today? 3-123  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  MR. PLANT: Yes. The present holders of the chief's names.  THE WITNESS: Gwinu is one.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: Do you want the names of all the people that  have hereditary chiefs' names from that house or some of  them?  MR. PLANT: How many are there?  JOSEPHINE:  There is Hag Wii Negh. Gwinu and Ska laggit.  There is one I can't remember.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine said that there are many hereditary  chiefs in that house but I've forgotten their chief names.  MR. PLANT:  So she can't remember any others apart from Gwinu  and Ska laggit?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  Is there another house --  THE INTERPRETER:  Ahx dayheen is another name she remembered.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Does someone have that name now?  JOSEPHINE:  That name is held by one of Mary John's daughters.  Q   Is there another house in the Laksilyu clan in Moricetown  besides the House of Many Eyes and the House on the Flat  Rock?  A   Kwan beah ya is third one.  Q   Who is the Chief Of that house?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  They're still thinking.  MR. PLANT: Could you interpret what they've said in their  brainstorming  session?  THE INTERPRETER:  They're just asking each other, they know  who the old name holders were but they're having problems  remembering the names of the present holders of those  names, that is what they're thinking about.  MR. PLANT:  I want the Wet'suwet'en name, that's the name I'm  more interested in than the English name.  THE INTERPRETER:  She's asking what Pat Namox chief name is. 3-124  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  MR. PLANT:  They're correcting your pronunciation?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  But they still have the same trouble remembering  right now?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  I don't need -- it's not that important that we  need wait for it.  Maybe you could tell them, Josephine  and Bazil, if you remember who that is later then I would  be interested in knowing.  I'm going to change the subject now, Bazil, and I  want to know if you remember the time before the railroad  was built?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  Bazil said that he remembers very little when  the first railway came through, and he remembers when he  and Peter Bazil went to Babine to bury Babine Wah Tah Keght  and he can't remember who from Babine is getting the name '  Babine Wah Tah Keght, he thinks it's one of the sisters.  Then Josephine said Bazil may have been little older  when the railway came through but because of his age he's  starting to forget some of the things that happened.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Bazil, do you think you went to Babine with Peter Bazil  before the railroad was built?  A  After the railway came through.  Q   Bazil, do you remember when the telegraph line was built?  A   I was very young when the telegraph line went through.  Maybe even my father was a young man when the telegraph  line first went  through. I don't know where it goes to.  Maybe it goes up to Whitehorse.  Even up to Alaska.  Q   Does he know either from his own memory or from what  people have told him if any of the people from the  Village of Moricetown worked on the telegraph line when  it was being built?  A  No, I don't remember. The line was put through on the  north side of our village and I don't remember any of our  people working.  Q   You don't remember if anyone worked?  THE INTERPRETER:  No.  MR. PLANT: Does he know if anyone worked on the railroad?  Worked in the building of the railroad from this village? 3-125  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  Some of the people he remembered working for  the railroad was George Naziel's father, Nazel;  Seymour  Morris.  Josephine said that his father had also worked for  the railroad.  MR. PLANT:  Josephine and Bazil's father Hag Wii Negh?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   What did your father do for the railroad?  A   Clearing for the right-of-way.  Q  Was your father a trapper also?  A  Yes.  Q   When you were very young do you know where your father  took his furs?  What village or what town?  A   There was the Hudson Bay, Sargeant's and J.B. Smith in  Hazelton.  Q   Did they ever go up to Babine?  Did he ever go up to  Babine?  A  No.  Q   Do you know how Moricetown got its name?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: Listening to both of them!  Bazil said that Moricetown got its name from Father  Morice, Roman Catholic Driest.  Josephine said that the  priest had set up a village just past where David Dennis  presently holds some land, which would be a mile, a mile  and a half from the present village. And she said the  remains of the old church may still be there.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: Josephine said that Father Morice was the one  who gave the name to this village.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Bazil or Josephine, do you remember Father Morice?  Did  you ever meet him?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Both of us did not see him. He was a long time  ago,  He originally came from Fort St. James area before 3-126  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  he came here.  MR. PLANT:  Did Bazil say something about Hie Tai in the answer?  Did I hear that?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, he didn't say.  MR. PLANT:  It must have been Fort St. James.  Q   Bazil, did you ever join the army?  A  No, too small. Later on when I was old enough to join the  army because of my eyes being ruined I was unable to join  the army.  Q   Did any of the Wet'suwet'en people from Moricetown join  the army?  A  Yes, there was some.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  Johnny Morris went to the Second World War. Most  of Thomas George's sons, Freddy George. . . .    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  Peter Alex, they call him Nedux, and he was shot '  twice, once through his stomach and once  through the neck.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Bazil, do you know if these people were  drafted or if they  volunteered?  A  They were drafted.  Q   Bazil, do you have any memory of the time when you were a  boy when white people came to Moricetown to talk about  the Indian reserves and the lands for the Indians?  A   I remember when the government people came around but we  were at that time, it would be the Barrett Lake area,  and they did not talk about the lands.  It was during  that time that we were kicked off the land around Barrett  Lake, it was the government that kicked us off the land  and it was like killing us.  Chased us off the land in the  winter, sixty-below weather.  I don't want this to happen  again a second time.  Q   Bazil, do you remember when the trap lines were  registered?  A  Yes, I do.  Q   Does he know how old he was then?  Were you married when  that happened?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  It was during the time when we were living at 3-127  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Barrett Lake and the lands were being registered, and  Josephine was just a small girl, about that high, and even  her name was put on the register.  MR. PLANT:  Beg your pardon, her name?  THE INTERPRETER:  Was put on the register.  MR. PLANT:  I was wondering if it might be a good time to take  a break?    SHORT RECESS  MR. PLANT:  Back on the record.  Q   Before we had our short break, Bazil and Josephine, we  were talking a little bit about the trap line and I think  you had said that when the trap line was first registered  Josephine was just a little girl, is that right?  A  Yes, she was a small child.  Q   Was that trap line -- did that trap line belong to  Hattakumex?  A  Yes.  Q   Who had that trap line before you did, Bazil?  A   Johnny Austin was the previous holder of Hattakumex and  when I got the name it cost me around six thousand.  Q   What relationship was Johnny Austin to you.? Was he your  uncle?  A  My uncle.  Q   Did he have the name Hattakumex?  A  Yes.  Q   When you registered the trap line do you remember what  names were on the registration besides Josephine?  A   Before was transferred over to me it was Johnny Austin and  my mother's name.  Before he died he transferred over to  me and Josephine.  Q   When you say he transferred are you referring to a transfer  that took place at a feast?  A  Yes.  Q  Was the trap line transferred at a feast to both, to both  of you? To both Bazil and Josephine?  A  Yes.  Q  What was the name that Josephine took at that feast if she  took a name then?  JOSEPHINE:  Ulstaysa non.  Q   Is that a name that goes with Hattakumex?  JOSEPHINE: No.  THE WITNESS:  It' s a different name, does not go with  Hattakumex. 3-128  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Was it after this feast that the trap line was registered?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  It was after the feast that it was registered.  MR. PLANT:  What else was said then?  THE INTERPRETER:  And we signed our names in three different  places.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   You signed your names as part of the registration?  A   Yes.  Q   Who else signed their names to register that trap line,  if anyone?  A   My brother Tommy Michell was another signatory to the trap  line but he removed his name after he got his own  territory.  Q   Did Tommy become a chief?  A   Yes, he did become.  Q   Is that how he got his territory?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q   Where is that territory?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE:  The Telkwa River area.  MR. PLANT:  Beg your pardon?  THE INTERPRETER:  The Telkwa River area.  JOSEPHINE:  There's several people that held the territory in  that area and he was one of the few that had territory  in that area.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Did Tommy Michell register the trap line in his territory?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes he did.  Bazil got him confused with Big  Tommy Michell.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   What Was Tommy Michell's chief's name? The Tommy that  we're talking about?  A   Sko Kumlesas.  Q   What clan was he?  JOSEPHINE:  Laksilyu. 3-129  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q   Is he from the House Of Many Eyes also?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  Yes, we are. That's where my father originated  from.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  So as I have it so far the people who registered the first  registration  of the Hattakumex trap line included you,  Bazil, you, Josephine, and Tommy Michell who later took  his name off;  is there anyone else who put their name on  the registration  form?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  Lizzette Naziel is the other person.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Why did all these people put their names on the registration instead of just one person?  JOSEPHINE:  Because we were the ones that were going to be out  trapping.  Q   Did you speak to the game warden or someone from the  government at the time you registered the trap lines?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  It was the game warden.  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine said that he had come to them.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Did you have a map or did you tell him, just tell him  where the boundaries of the trap line were?  A   There was a map of the territory  in his office and that  is what he went by.  Q   In the game warden's office?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  I didn't hear the last part?  THE INTERPRETER:  And that is what he went by.  MR. PLANT:  That is what the game warden went by?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Did the game warden make a map up by himself, do you know,  or did you help him? 3-130  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  The game warden asked where our boundaries were  and we showed him on the map.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  You showed the game warden where the boundaries of the  territory were on a map, did I get that right?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Do you have a map today that shows the boundaries of that  trap line?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes he does.  He has got in his room somewhere  and he doesn't want to bother looking for it.  MR. PLANT:  Maybe if he. . . .    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  He said  if you want one you can find one at  the game warden's office in Smithers.  MR. PLANT:  Is that the same map?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  This is the same as the map I have.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Does that map show the boundaries of the territory that  you have?  A  Yes.  Q  I do have a map from the game warden's office in Smithers.  I have more than one map. Perhaps, Bazil or Josephine,  could you tell me if that looks anything like the map that  Bazil has been talking about?  Perhaps this may be confusing and I had better let  you know that the game warden's file has several maps in  it so perhaps if they don't think that is the map they  could look at these two maps.  That I think is the old  map, the one that you're looking at now, which is the  larger maD with the red felt pen   THE INTERPRETER:  Do you want me to describe what is on here?  MR. PLANT: If that would  help them.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  IN WET'SUWET'EN  MR. PLANT: I think we can simplify the exercise.  Ask them if 3-131  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  that map looks at all familiar to them? If that is  something that they can recognize or not? Tell them  that I don't want them to read the map.  THE INTERPRETER:  He is saying that the boundary goes past  Toboggan Creek, where Adams Igloo is, or where the viewpoint is to Hudson Bay Mountain.  MR. Plant:  Is Bazil able to say whether or not that map looks  anything like the map he has in his bedroom?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said it's similar to this but the boundary  seems to be different on this one.  MS. MANDELL: We will produce the map in the bedroom for you.  We offer to do that and we'll try to do that for tomorrow.  MR. PLANT: Okay.  THE INTERPRETER: He said that he told you the territory before  MS. MANDELL: Perhaps if Bazil could try and find the map in  THE INTERPRETER: He said he would do that.  MR. PLaNT: I should tell you that the map that I gave to you,  You might tell them that.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  BY MR. PLANT:  There is a map that the game warden has that is much more  recent and the boundaries on the new map have been changed.  The boundaries on the new map now go to the height of land  to the height of land whereas the boundaries on the old  map, like this map, used to have straight lines on them  and this straight line is misleading because the territory  I don't propose to mark either of those maps.  We may  mark one or more of them tomorrow if we find the other  maps.  Q  Bazil, do you know who has registered the trap line for  --do you know if someone has registered the trap line  north of your line and, if so, do you know who that  person is?  THE INTERPRETER:  That is this direction? 3-132  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  MR. PLANT:  Well, all the maps I have show the Bulkley River  as going north and south and I mean downstream on the  Bulkley.  THE INTERPRETER:  So it would be this side?  MR. PLANT:  We can do this off the record for a minute.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. PLANT:  Let's go back on the record.  I've had a discussion with Victor Jim about the  directions and I think between the two of us I have made  it clear that I would like to know whether Bazil knows  who has territories around the territory of Hattakumex  and, if so, who has those territories?  And the first  direction was up past Beamont.  THE WITNESS: The territory past Beamont belongs to a Gitksan  Indian who's dead now and I don't know who has taken over  his name.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Does Bazil know Who he Was When he was still alive?  THE INTERPRETER:  He was asking Josephine if she remembered  the name. He knows the person but he cannot remember  the name and he says maybe Arthur Mowat may know the name  of that person or Sylvester George may know the name of  that person.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Is it possible that the name of that person is Sam Jones?  A  No, I don't think so.  Q  The other direction was across the Bulkley?  A  Wah Tah Keght.  Q  Is he Wet'suwet'en?  A  Yes, and he lives just across from here.  Q  The Other direction Was the Other side Of the Hudson Bay  Mountain?  A  The boundary between my territory and the Hudson Bay  Mountain belongs to Gyologet.  Hudson Bay Mountain belongs  to him and behind Hudson Bay Mountain the territory  belonged to the Kilwoneetz people, and the Kilwoneetz  people had a village there.  They had a  smokehouse there  but now it's overgrown again and there's trees that are  that big where the smokehouse used to be.  Q  What clan were the Kilwoneetz people?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN 3-133  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  No, the other people, Kilwoneetz?  JOSEPHINE:  They're Laksilyu.  Q  From Moricetown?  A  Yes.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  MR. PLANT:  Beg your pardon?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said "Just like your father's from here".  BY MR. PLANT:  C  Does Bazil know the name Henry Wilson?  A  No.  Q  How about Alistair McMillan?  A  No.  Q  Josephine, do you know that name?  THE INTERPRETER:  Bazil's asking if they're Indians or white  people?  MR. PLANT:  They may be white people, I don't know.  THE WITNESS:  No, we don't know them.  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine wants to hear the names again.  MR. PLANT:  Henry Wilson.  JOSEPHINE:  Henry Wilson may be a Gitksan Indian from either  Gitsegukla or Kispiox.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  And the Other name Was Alistair McMillan?  A  No, we don't know that one.  Q  Bazil, are you still registered as the owner of that trap  line or one of the owners?  A  Yes.  Q  Does that territory still belong to Hattakumex?  A  Yes.  Q  If Hattakumex wanted to could he sell that territory or  give it away to somebody outside Wet'suwet'en people?  A  No.  I have got lots of grandchildren.  Q  Who is it, or do you have someone in mind as being the  person that might take this territory over after you?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: There's several people that I have in mind, either  Joseph Michell or Trevor Michell.  MR. PLANT: Trevor Michell or who?  THE INTERPRETER: Joseph Michell. 3-134  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  What is their relationship to you?  THE WITNESS:  Grandchildren.  JOSEPHINE:  Lawrence is his nephew.  MR. PLANT:  Are they the children of Lawrence Michell?  THE INTERPRETER:  No.  MR. PLANT:  No?  Q   Are they your children's children then? Let me be more  clear.  You say that Trevor Michell and Joseph Michell  are your grandchildren, does that mean that they are  the children of your children, Bazil?  A  Joseph is the daughter of Elizabeth --  THE INTERPRETER:   -- son of Elizabeth --  THE WITNESS:--Who is a niece of mine, and 'Trevor is the son  of Josephine's daughter.  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine said that there was discussions  transferring the land to Trevor but we haven't  spoken  about it since Trevor's mom got killed.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Bazil, do you have sons?  A   Yes, four of them.  Q   Would you think of giving Hattakumex to your sons? One  of them or more?  A   It is my territory, is not for my sons because  they're  from a different clan. The territory would be handed  over to Josephine's son or grandchildren.  Q   That's in accordance with the Old Ways, isn't it?  A  Yes.  MR. PLANT: I'm going to stop for the day. That concludes the  subject area and rather than embark on another, I think  it's time to stop.  I was going to say thank you very  much.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: I told them that you're done for today and  you will be coming back tomorrow.  MR. PLANT: Yes. Can we start tomorrow at nine?  Wine-thirty,  Victor?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN 3-135  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  THE INTERPRETER:  Nine-thirty is fine.  MR. PLANT:  We'll work and try to finish tomorrow.  THE INTERPRETER:   I told them that.  MR. PLANT:  Josephine and Bazil, thank you for your patience.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3.55 P.M.  TO BE RESUMED FRIDAY, 16 MAY, 1986 AT 9:30 A.M.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  VERONICA HARPER (MS.)  Official Court Reporter  VH/jg-May 20/86 B.C.S.R.A. #263 3-136  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  VICTOR WILLIAM JIM,  Wet'suwet'en Interpreter,  Previously Affirmed:  BAZIL MICHELL, a Witness called  on behalf of the Plaintiffs,  Previously Affirmed:  JOSEPHINE MICHELL, a Witness  called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs, Previously Affirmed:    UPON COMMENCING AT 9:40 A.M. , 16 MAY, 1986  MR. PLANT: This is a continuation of the Cross-Examination  of  Bazil and Josephine Michell and it is May 16th. I remind  Bazil and Josephine and Victor that you're all under  affirmation.  Would you remind Bazil and Josephine of that?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT (CONTINUED)  :  Q  Bazil, you told me yesterday that the head chief of the  House of Many Eyes is Hag Wii Negh who is Sylvester  Williams, do you remember that?  A   (In English)  Yes.    OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Can you tell me what that term means to you, the term  "head chief"?  A  The head chiefs look after and take care of the territory  as well as speak for the clan members at feasts.  Q   You said yesterday, Bazil, that you and Josephine were the  head chief of the Hatttakumex territory, is that correct?  A  Yes.  Q  Does that mean that you make decisions about what happens  to this territory?  A  Yes. We and people from our clan, if they want to use our  territory would have to get permission from the two of us.  If Hag Wii Negh, Sylvester Williams, were healthy could he  make decisions about Hattakumex territory?  A   Yes he would.  He would do the similar functions as my  father and my mother had done when they were alive.  Q   Did those functions include making the decisions about  Hattakumex territory?  A  Yes. 3-137  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q   Is Hag Wii Negh a more important chief than Hattakumex?  A   It's the same strength as my name but he sits in the  middle of our house and therefore observes our clan  members.  Q   This is at the feast that he sits in the middle?  A   Yes.  Q   Is there a Chief in the Laksilyu clan in Moricetown whose  name is Dzeeh'?  A   Mrs. Peter Alfred.  Q   Mrs. Peter Alfred?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Does She have territory?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE:  She has territory across Moricetown which was  mentioned yesterday.  And she's registered with Wah Tah  Keght.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is that the same territory as Peter Alfred's territory?  A   It's different than Peter Alfred's.  Q   Bazil, you've spoken about the Laksilyu people from  Babine. Do you remember telling us about going to Babine?  A    (In English)  Yes.  Q   Are these people part of your clan also?  A   Yes.  Q   Do they speak the same language as you do?  A   Yes.  Q   Do they have the same laws as your people?  A   Yes, same thing.  Q   Would you call those people Wet'suwet'en people?  A   The Babine people could be considered Wet'suwet'en and  it would be the same as the people who live in Hagwilget.  Q   You Consider the people that live in Hagwilget to be  Wet'suwet'en people also?  A   Yes.  Q   You told us about a time when I think it was some Nutseni  people were trespassing and Tas Las caught them, you  remember that?  A   Tas Las.  Q   Thank you. Where do the Nutseni people come from?  A   The Nutseni live around Fort St. James area, and Stoney  Creek and the Fraser Lake area.  Q   Do they Speak the same language as the Wet'suwet'en? 3-138  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  JOSEPHINE:  They speak a different dialect than we do.  Q   Can you understand them though when they speak?  A  Yes.  Q  Do they have the same laws as the people of the  Wet'suwet'en, if they know?  A  Nutseni do their business similar to ours but the only  difference is that they buy the stones themselves and  put them on the grave whereas here we hire people from  other clans to buy the stone and put it on the grave.  Q   By other clans, Bazil, do you mean clans in Moricetown?  A  Yes, the people from Hagwilget and Babine, their laws are  the same as ours.  Q   Bazil, do you know of the Sekanni people?  A  No, I don't. I haven't....  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE:  No, we don't.  I probably see them but I wouldn't  know them.  MR. PLANT: Beg your pardon?  THE INTERPRETER:  "I would see them but I wouldn't know them  to be Sekannis".  BY MR. Plant:  Q  Do either of you know where the Sekanni people come from?  A  No.  JOSEPHINE:  There's a lot of Indian villages, I don't know which  tribe they would be from.  Q  I have SOme more questions now about Hattakumex territory.  Is Boulder Creek in the Hattakumex territory?  A  Yes.  Q  Does Kattakumex territory go as far as Beamont?  a  Yes, Up to Beamont.  Q  Does it go as far as Mosquito Flats?  A  No, it doesn't.  Q  Do you know who has the territory at Mosquito Flats?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  The territory at Mosquito Flat belongs to the  Gitksan chief and the area across the river from Mosquito  Flat belongs to Mrs. Arthur Mowat.  I don't know who owns  the territory this side of the river.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Is there a creek near Beamont and, if so, what is its  name? 3-139  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  JOSEPHINE:  There is a creek, Kwatsaywk is the name of the  creek.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: The first creek I gave you is the other side  of Beamont and the creek this side of Beamont is  Strawberry Creek.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is Kwatsaywk Creek within Hattakumex territory?  JOSEPHINE: No.  Q   But Strawberry Creek is in Hattakumex territory?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q   Does Strawberry Creek go near Strawberry Flats?  A  Yes. On that creek there are many beavers.  Q   The creek that Bazil called Kwatsaywk, or something like  that, does it have an English name? Does Bazil or  Josephine know it?     OFF THE RECORD  THE WITNESS:  China Creek.  MR. PLANT:  China Creek?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  THE WITNESS:  That's in the Gitksan territory.  MR. PLANT:   Yes.  Q   Is there an Indian reserve at Beamont?  A  No.  Q   Bazil and Josephine -- I'll never get that right -- did  you have a garden there at Beamont?  A   Yes, we did when we were working in that area and  Josephine still has a garden but hasn't been there since  her daughter was killed.  Q   Is that Elsie Hart?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q   Does that garden belong to Hattakumex?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q   Did either Of you, Bazil or Josephine, buy the land there  from the government?  Or get the land from the government  there?  A  No. We've been using the land for many years.  Q   Are there any white people near there?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: There used to be white settlers there and they've 3-140  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  all moved and now a new batch of white people are moving  into the territory.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is this territory....or, is this territory the garden at  Beamont?  JOSEPHINE:  No, it's not, an empty garden.  Q  Does Hattakumex have a fishing site at Beamont?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes, we have. . . .     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Yes, we have  three sites at the river near  Beamont.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Does anyone use those  fishing sites?  JOSEPHINE:  I don't think we would  be able to use the fishing  site since the person that used to go and has rights up  there has been killed.  Q  Did you use the fishing sites  before Elsie was killed?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q   How long ago was that?  JOSEPHINE:  We used the fishing site up to her death and every  year we would prepare the site so we could set our nets.  Q  How long ago did Elsie die?  JOSEPHINE:  October of last year.  Q   Bazil, did you hunt or trap or fish or pick berries at  Mosquito Flats?  Josephine's nodding.  Let's start with Bazil.  A   Yes, I did pick berries, huckleberries up in the mountainous area behind Mosquito Flat.  Q   And, Josephine, what did you do up there?  Did you pick  berries?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes, I picked -- yes, we did pick huckleberries,  soap berries and blueberries.  Q   Did you hunt or fish or trap up there?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes, she did.  MR. PLANT  JOSEPHINE  MR. PLANT  JOSEPHINE  MR. PLANT  JOSEPHINE  MR. PLANT  Which?  Yes, we did fish.  Hunt?  Yes.  And trap?  Yes.  When did you do this?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN 3-141  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine said that they did their fishing,  hunting and trapping up to the time of Elsie's death.  Bazil said that they set their nets when they were  working with poles and that the Indian people would  utilize all the creeks in their territory but since the  fish warden have come around they have denied them using  the creeks in their territories.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Is Mosquito Flats the other side of China Creek from here?  A  The other side.  Q  Did you have permission from the Gitksan chiefs to use  the land at Mosquito Flats?  A  We shared the territory because we were all working  together.  Q  Did the Gitksan Chiefs and the Gitksan people use  Hattakumex territory?  A  No, they used their own territory.  Q  Bazil and Josephine, do you remember who gave you permission to use the land at Mosquito Flats?  A  Paul Awayawus, he lived on his territory and he bought  the poles from the government and we used the territory  when he was there, and Mrs. Mowat now holds his name.  Q  Did you ask Mrs. Mowat permission to use the territory?  THE INTERPRETER: No, they asked Paul when he was alive but  Mrs. Mowat has his name now after he died.  MR. PLANT: All right, I'll ask the question again.  Q  Have you ever asked Mrs. Mowat for permission to use the  territory?  A  We don't use the territory now.  Q  Do they know when Mrs. Mowat took the name?  A  I don't know the exact year when Mrs. Mowat took the name.  She took it when the old man had died and she's the owner  of that territory now.  Q  Does Bazil remember if it was just a year or so, or quite  a while ago?  A  It wasn't last year, it was a few years earlier.  Q  When you were working on this territory, was that when you  were cutting poles?  A  Yes.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: Josephine said that the lots that they bought  for the poles they were marked and we did not go outside  the marked boundaries for the poles. 3-142  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Did you buy lots for poles?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q  Did you cut poles for money yourself?  A  About five or six years. Every year Josephine and I would  take out five or six thousand poles.  Q  Did you get paid money for the poles?  A  Yes, we sold the poles and they were loaded on boxcars at  Beamont.  It was the Hanson Company that was buying the  poles.  Q  Was this something you did all year round or just for  parts of the year?  A  Yes, we worked most of the year and one time some of our  people ran out of food and Mr. Peter Alfred on his horse  went to the sandbar and fired his gun off and when we  heard about it we went up there to find out what was wrong.  He told us that they had no food so we hired two Gitksan  people who would navigate the river and food was delivered  to them. The area where we worked the river was very  dangerous when it rose because it would flow against the  rock and the back eddies, so it was very dangerous where  we used to work.  Q  But you got some food to those people?  A  Yes.  There was some white people who also worked with us.  Peter Alfred was their foreman.  He looked after the crew.  Q  Do you still have those lots that you took the poles from?  A  We just bought the wood, similar to the way things are  done today.  Q  A long time ago you told us that Roy Morris had shot an  otter at Cow Hill;  do you remember telling us about that?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  I don't remember talking about that.  MR. PLANT:  Beg your pardon?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said may be somebody else.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Bazil, do you know where Cow Hill is?  A  Yes I do.  Q  Where is it?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said it's my country, I should know.  MR. PLANT:  I think I understood that.  Q  I don't, Bazil, could you tell ne where Cow Hill is so I  will know?  A  Cow Hill's just past John Brown Creek on that straight  stretch on the main highway. 3-143  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q   Is it closer to the road?  A   Yes, it is near the road and Cow Hill derives its name  from a little hill near the road.  Q   Is it a place where cows went or is it looking like  something that a cow does?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  It was the white people who gave the name Cow  Hill. The Wet'suwet'en name for that area is Hadoekwo'.  MR. PLANT: Which means Cow Hill?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: They discussed it and they said that the  name derives from an underground creek that flows near  that area.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is that in Hattakumex territory?  A   Yes.  Q   Bazil or Josephine, do you know someone named Roy Morris?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes, we know him.  Q   Is he Wet'suwet'en?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q   What Clan is he?  JOSEPHINE:  Gitdumden.  Q   Is he from Moricetown?  A   Roy Morris is originally from a small village near Burns  Lake. When he got married is when he moved to Moricetown.  Q   Have you ever trapped an otter on Hattakumex?  A   No.  Q   Have you ever hunted an otter on Hattakumex?  A   No, I haven't, because the otter is smart. It's only the  lucky ones that do trap an otter.  Q   Josephine, have you ever trapped or hunted an otter on  Hattakumex?  JOSEPHINE:  No.  Q   You told us about mountain goats on Hattakumex and I  wanted to know if you got mountain goats by hunting them  or by trapping them?  I think they both know what mountain  goats are.     OFF THE RECORD  JOSEPHINE:  The only way you can kill them is with a gun. You  can't trap them. 3-144  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Have you ever killed a mountain goat, Josephine?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  No she didn't.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Bazil, have you ever killed a mountain goat?  .    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE:  I've killed bear, moose, deer and other small game,  MR. PLANT: But no mountain goats?  THE INTERPRETER:  But no mountain goats.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   How about you, Bazil, have you killed a mountain goat?  A   Yes, I've shot many up on this mountain.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  The mountain directly by my house, there are  many goats there and the best time to shoot them is when  they're up on the mountains because it would be difficult  to pack them if you get them when they're down below.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   I think you have said several times that there are beaver  on Hattakumex territory but I think you also said that  there aren't as many as there used to be, do you remember  saying that?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know why there aren't as many beaver as there used  to be?  JOSEPHINE:  The white people are killing all the beavers.  Q   Do the people from Moricetown kill the beaver too?  JOSEPHINE:  They probably do, I haven't been for a while now.  MR. PLaNT:  Where is it that she hasn't been?  THE INTERPRETER:  This side of Beamont.  MR. PLANT: Beg your pardon?  THE INTERPRETER:  This side of Beamont.  Josephine:  There is also beavers just across  from here and  some  behind the village, and my grandson  checked  the  areas and there didn't seem to be any.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Do the young people from Moricetown follow  the old ways?  JOSEPHINE: I  personally  teach the children that I care for 3-145  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  the ways of our people.  Q   What about Other Children in the village? Do they follow  the old laws?  JOSEPHINE:  We don't know if they do.  Q   Do you remember talking about someone whose name was  Claude le Palm?  My pronunciation of French is about as bad as my  pronunciation of Wet'suwet'en.  A  Yes.  Q  Is he Wet'suwet'en?  A  No, he's a Frenchman. . . .this Claude le Palm steals all the  time.  He's stolen about 100  traps....  MR. PLANT:  Let's take a break for a minute.    SHORT RECESS  MR. PLANT:  I think we are on the  record. I'm tempted to say  something about Louise discussing Poland in the background!  Now, we are going to be  on the record. Before we  broke, Victor was translating an answer about Claude le  Palm and his activities on Hattakumex territory.  THE WITNESS: He has stolen about  100 traps from both Josephine  and I, and he also got a trap line in the Gitksan  territory.  He was chased off there and we are not happy  with his activities.  He's not from around here. They  should send him back to where he came from.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Bazil or Josephine, have you  ever complained to the game  warden about Claude le Palm?  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine said that  she hasn't.  THE WITNESS:  When Elsie was alive I did mention this to the  game warden. I don't think they've  done anything about  it.  They should pull him in, charge him, but nothing's  been done so far.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   A long time ago, Bazil, you said  something on the very  first day that we met about your son-in-law stealing  Indian property, you spoke of him as your son-in-law  who considers himself an Indian but you don't think he  is;  you remember saving about that?  A  Yes.  The son-in-law is Claude le Palm?  A  He thinks he's my son-in-law, I don't think they're  married.  He's also stolen my daughter. 3-146  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant     OFF THE RECORD  MR. PLANT: Bazil, I'm going to change the subject!  MS. MANDELL: That's very discreet of you.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Everyone here wants me to ask you whether or not you have  reported Claude le Palm's illegal marriage to the game  warden?  A   Yes, I told him.  Q   Bazil and Josephine, you told us about hunting and trapping  on Hattakumex territory, and you have told us about fishing  and picking berries, and you have also told us about the  garden you have or used to have up at Beamont....  A   And I have a big one out....  Q   And you have a big garden out behind the house?  A   Yes.  Q   What else do you do on Hattakumex territory?  JOSEPHINE:  We told you about the fishing on our territory, as  well as utilizing the hides of the animals that we hunt  and trap.  Q   Is there anything else that they do that they want to say?  JOSEPHINE:  We used to do haying on our land but now that we  don't have any horses, we haven't been doing any haying.  The only thing we do on our land now is gardening.  I let  someone use my field for haying but the family refused.  Q Josephine wanted to let someone but the family refused?  A   It was the people who I was going to let do the haying  on our territory but they changed their minds.  Q   Do the animals on the territory belong to Hattakumex?  A   Whatever is on our territory belongs to us.  If the  animals are on our territory then it is our right to kill  them.  Q   Do the Wet'suwet'en people own the Bulkley River? Does  it belong to them?  A   Yes it does.  Q   Has there been any logging on Hattakumex territory?  A   Both Josephine and I did make poles for City Pole as well  as railroad ties.  One time we took 15,000 ties off our  territory. In those days we were pretty energetic and  worked hard but since we've gotten older we haven't been  doing that.  Q   Has anybody else done any logging on Hattakumex territory?  A   The Band Office has a sawmill and they've been logging on  our territory, as well as people from the village making  wood for winter.  We haven't been compensated for that.  Q   Haven't? 3-147  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is that the Moricetown Indian Band?  A   Yes.  e   Did the Indian Band ask for your permission to go on the  territory to cut down trees before they went on the  territory?  A   No, they didn't.  They didn't ask Josephine.  Q   You told us about fishing at Moricetown down near the  bridge across the river, do you remember telling us about  that?  A   Yes.  Q   You said that there was some rock blasted down near the  canyon, do you remember telling us that?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know why that rock was blasted?  A   The reason the rock was blasted was for the fish ladders  to go in, and all our fishing holes are filled up with  rock and we don't catch as many salmon as we used to.  Q   Do you know -- let me start again -- I think you said that  it was government people that blasted the rock for the  fish ladders?  A   Yes.  JOSEPHINE: It was probably the fish warden. They probably did  that because they're Stingy with the salmon.  Q   Does she know which government the fish warden is?  JOSEPHINE:  No, I don't.  Q   Josephine, do you know there is a government in Ottawa and  a government in Victoria?  JOSEPHINE:  That is what I hear, that is what I know.  Q   Josephine, have you ever voted in an election?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes, I have.  Q   Bazil, have you ever voted?  A   Yes.  JOSEPHINE:  I have seen the outside of the offices of the  government in Ottawa.  Q   I Won't ask you who you voted for! I think you said that  you thought that when the rock was blasted that maybe  Tommy Tait and Moses David had given permission for that;  do you remember saying that?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: The government tried many times before to build  a fish ladder but it wasn't until the two individuals  named were in power is when the fish ladders were put in, 3-148  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  and nobody really knows who gave the permission for the  government to blast the rocks.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  When Tommy Tait and Moses David were in power, is that  what he said?  A  Yes.  Q  Were they on the Band Council or chiefs of the Moricetown  band?  A  Yes.  They were looking after the affairs of the village  and we were working at Beamont at the time. When we came  back we saw that the canyon had been blasted.  Q  Were they on the Band Council at this time?  A  Yes, they were on the Band Council.  Q  Moses David is Samooh, he's a hereditary chief?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  They think David Dennis has that name.  Both  Tommy Tait and Moses David, we haven't seen them inviting  people to a feast.  MR. PLANT:  I didn't catch all of that, they haven't, Moses  David, invited people to a feast?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  Ma. PLANT:  Is there someone else who was part of that?  THE INTERPRETER:  Tommy Tait.  MS. MANDELL:  Tommy Tait.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Do you know which clan Moses David belongs to?  A  Gilserhyu.  Q  Is Tommy Tait a chief?  THE INTERPRETER: According to Bazil, Tommy Tait doesn't have  a name and one time he went to Burns Lake and told the  people he was inviting that he was Tse baysa. Another  time he used Kloumkhun to invite people.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Which Clan is he from?  A  Laksamshu.  Q  Is he still On the Band COUncil?  JOSEPHINE:  No.  THE  WITNESS: He originally came from Skeena Crossing.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Is he Gitksan?  A  Yes. 3-149  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  Did he marry someone from Moricetown?  A  Yes.  Q  You told us about fishing at Tatsaka' Lake, Clam Lake,  is that the lake behind Moricetown?  A  Yes.  Q  Is that Hattakumex    A  That is Josephine and I's lake.  Q  Does anyone fish there now?  JOSEPHINE: No one is fishing there now.  THE WITNESS:  The creek beds have been ruined and we think  there's some kind of monster living in that lake, and  Dick Naziel has seen it and we think it's because of that  there are no more salmon in that lake.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Is it the monster that has ruined the Stream beds Or Creek  beds also?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  THE WITNESS:  Dick Naziel told me it was a big monster.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Bazil, do you remember When the last time was that you  actually trapped on Hattakumex territory?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  It was about 10 years ago that I last trapped.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  What about hunting?  A  It was about 10 years ago as well I quit hunting when I  began losing my eyesight and my legs started to get weak.  Q  What about you, Josephine, when was that last time that  you trapped anything?  JOSEPHINE:  Last year.  I kept trying to go last winter but  no one wanted to go out with me.  Q  Did you trap anything last winter?  A  No.  Q  Did you trap anything the winter before that?  A  Yes.  THE WITNESS: She's a good trapper, she always traps a lot of  animals.  MS.MANDELL: Unsolicited testimony.  MR. PLANT: Yes.  JOSEPHINE:  Last winter my grandson went out trapping and he  only caught three martens and some squirrels. 3-150  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Who Was that?  A  Trevor.  Q  Trevor?  A  Trevor Michell.  Q  Bazil, is your son Eddie also called Alfred or are those  two different people?  THE INTERPRETER:  Two different.  MR. PLANT:  Two different people. Thank you, Victor.  Q  Do those two people trap?    OFF THE RECORD  THE WITNESS:  Yes, they do want to trap but Claude le Palm keeps  stealing all their traps.  JOSEPHINE:  Trevor bought some traps last winter and people  seemed to keep stealing his traps.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Is Eddie also someone who wants to trap but he has traps  stolen?  That may have been in the last answer.  THE INTERPRETER:  No it wasn't.  MR. PLANT:  Let's try again.  Q  Does Eddie trap himself?  A  Yes, he did trap last winter and he also lost traps.  Q  Where did he lose his traps?  A  Behind, directly behind the house.  Q  On Hattakumex territory?  A  Yes.  Q  Bazil, remember yesterday we were looking at a map and  you said    A  I didn't get that.  We'll find it out Smithers.  Q  The map's in Smithers?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said he couldn't find his and for you to  go to the game warden's office in Smithers and he wants  to know where you live in Smithers.  MR. PLANT:  I don't live in Smithers.  But I went to the game  warden' s office yesterday.  THE WITNESS:   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  That is where I got the map I showed you, the game  warden gave me that map.  Q  Do you remember what your map looked like?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said that I was tired last night and I  fell asleep so I didn't look for it last night, and this  morning I woke up late so I didn't have a chance to look  for it. 3-151  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  He said the mao that he has seen is done  properly except that Toboggan Lake is not included on the  map.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Is that the map that he saw yesterday?  A  Yes.  Q  Does he think that Toboggan Lake is in the territory on  the map that he has?  A  I don't know whether Toboggan Lake is on the map.  Josephine and I would like to go to see the game warden  and bring someone who speaks the English language well  and straighten out the boundary.  Q  Can Bazil remember if the map that he thinks he has in  his bedroom shows the boundaries properly or he doesn't  know about Toboggan Lake?  A  The map that I have may not have Toboggan Lake. All the  elderly people from here know that that is my territory  up to Toboggan Lake.  My grandfather, Tas Las, lived there  and trapped, and I have many grandchildren, and Josephine  has many grandchildren, they would like to go and trap,  and I want to find out if the white people are poaching  on the territory.  MR. PLANT:  Well, I think for identification purposes we should  mark as exhibits the maps I referred to yesterday.  Q  Perhaps the first thing I'll do is ask if Bazil can say  without having to think about it very long if he can say  whether this map is the same as the map in his bedroom  or not?  I don't need him to think about it for very long.  If it takes a long time for him to think about it I won't  pursue it, but if he is able to say yes or no for sure I  would like to know that?  A  This map doesn't look like the one that I have. The two  maps I have, there's another older map which identified  Tas Las and Sam Stayce, who were my great grandfathers  who lived in a cabin behind Toboggan Lake.  MR. PLANT:  Let's mark that map as Exhibit 1.    EXHIBIT NO. 1 - Photocopied map with red felt pen  outline of boundaries  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  The Toboggan Lake area, I don't know whether the  white people have stolen that area.  If they haven't I 3-152  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  would like to get it back. If the government wants to sell  it to white people, Josephine and I want about sixty  thousand.  We need the money.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  $60,000?  A  Yes.  Q  So if Josephine and Bazil were paid $60,000 they could  give away the area around Toboggan Lake? That would be  enough money?  A  With the trap line and all it would be over 100,000 and  we don't want the white people to be taking our land for  nothing.  Q  Bazil, have you or Josephine ever trapped in your life  at Toboggan Lake?  A  Yes we did.  Josephine and my father set up camp near the  lake in a tent.  They would trap that area for beaver as  well as other animals up close to the mountains.  I  personally  did a lot of trapping in that area.  Q  When did you do that trapping?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  They were asking each other whether they  could remember.  They were trying to jog each other's  memories  as to exactly what year or how old they were  when they were trapping that area. Bazil thinks that  Josephine was about five or six years old when she was  trapping  with her father.  Josephine said that it was 10 years ago that she  had run traps behind Toboggan Lake.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Does the name Edward Wesley or Joseph Wesley mean anything  to you?  A  No.  THE INTERPRETER:  He was asking me if they were from Skeena  Crossing, and I said that is what they're asking. Ba?il  said probably all dead now.  MR. PLANT:  He doesn't know either of those names?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine said that he knows them and they're  dead.  Bazil said they helped bury that Wesley who was one  of  the grandfathers.  Since he was buried they haven't 3-153  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  been to Skeena Crossing that often.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Do those people come from Skeena Crossing?  A   Yes.  Q   They're Gitksan people?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know if they had trap lines near Hattakumex  territory?  A   Half of the Gitsegukla River is considered the boundary  for -- the boundary between the Wet'suwet'en and the  Gitksan people.  I want to take you up there some time  to look at it yourself --  THE INTERPRETER:  -- and he was talking to me when he was  saying that.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Bazil, have you ever heard of the, or do you know what  I mean when I talk about the tribal council, The Gitksan-  Wet 'suwet 'en Tribal Council?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes, we have heard about the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  Tribal Council and we did attend one of their annual  meetings. As we're unable to read or write we are not  that familiar with the English names.  Q   Have you given any rights over the Hattakumex trap line  to the tribal council?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Yes, we did sign the trap line over to the  tribal council for protection but not to the Gitksan  people, and Alfred Mitchell was the person who was looking  after signing of the trap line over to the tribal council  for protection for our people.  I would still like to go  to the game warden to straighten out the boundary around  Toboggan Lake.  MR. PLANT: What did Josephine say?  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine was asking Bazil when this happened  because she wasn't around that much last summer.  MR. PLANT: Did Bazil remember?  THE INTERPRETER:  Bazil told her that Alfred and Roy Morris  were telling all the trap line owners that the tribal  council was trying to put in a single trap line to protect  it for the people.  MR. PLANT: That is all that they said?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. PLANT: What I have is a couple of documents that have come 3-154  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  from the file in Smithers.  That is the trap line that we  have been talking about.  It's been filed for the trap  line and they are photocopies.  One is the letter of  April 19th, 1984 which has Bazil and Josephine's names  on the bottom and addressed to the Regional Manager of  the Fish and Wildlife Branch of the Department of the  Envi ronment.  The next letter is Nay 8, 1984 and it is from the  Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council signed by Mr. Sterritt and  addressed to Bazil Michell.  It comes from a file in  Smithers, as I said, and both those letters are together  in that file. Could you put them, or put them before  Bazil and Josephine and ask if they recognize those papers,  and I'm interested among other things if Josephine will  identify her signature.  THE INTERPRETER:  She's laughing at her signature!  Yes, they  recognize this document.  MR. PLANT: Let's mark it as Exhibit 2 while you explain the  other document to them.    EXHIBIT NO. 2 - Letter of April 19th, 1984 from the  Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council to the  Regional Manager, Fish and Wildlife,  Department of the Environment.  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, they've seen this. I was just explaining  in Wet'suwet'en the contents of the letter.  MR. PLANT: Very good. The letter that was marked Exhibit 2 is  the letter of April 19 which has Bazil's mark and  Josephine's signature at the bottom.  I would like to have the letter of May 8th, 1984,  which is addressed to Bazil, marked as Exhibit 3.    EXHIBIT NO. 3 - Letter dated May 8, 1984 from the Gitksan-  Carrier Tribal Council signed by Mr.  Sterritt addressed to Bazil Michell.  MR. PLANT:  I have a few more questions about something else  and then we'll stop for lunch.  Q  Bazil, you told us that you worked as a taxi driver?  A  (In English) Yes, a long tiRe ago.  Q  A long time ago. Did you make any money as a taxi driver?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said I made a little bit of money.  There's no cars then, just the three of us that had  vehicles, myself, Tommy Michell and Peter Alfred. 3-155  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Was that in Moricetown?  A  Yes.  Take people all over Smithers, Kitwanga, Kispiox,  Hazelton.  Q  Was that when you were a young man?  A  Yes.  Q  Did you do that for a long time?  A  It was for about 10 ,?ears and after that Josephine and I  got into the pole business where we made pretty good money.  Q  Did you have a licence or permit for driving taxis?  A  (In English) Yes, can't go without a licence.  Got a badge  on you.  THE INTERPRETER:   Badge.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  There Was something in the evidence that you gave when  you were answering Louise's questions that I didn't quite  understand.  This was after the railroad came, wasn't it?  A  Yes.  Q  And the Steamboats, the Steamboats USed to COme to  Hazelton, didn't they?  A  Yes, to Hazelton.  Q  But the Steamboats had Stopped coming by the time you  were driving taxi, hadn't they?  A  It was during the time that I was driving a taxi that the  railroad came through and the depot was set up in  Hazelton for the trains, and we couldn't drive our vehicles  in the winter, no snow ploughs.  Q  Were the steamboats still coming to Hazelton then?  A  Yes.  The steamboats quit coming when the railroad bridge  was built across the river, and steamboats couldn't get  underneath the bridge so they quit coming up the river.  Q  Was that when -- let me start again -- was Bazil driving  taxis back then when that happened?  A  Yes.  Q  Does Josephine ever remember the steamboats?  Did you ever  see the steamboat, Josephine?  JOSEPHINE: No.  MR. PLANT:  Let's break for lunch. Off the record.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.00 P.M.    UPON RESUMING AT 1.30 P.M.  MR. PLANT:  We are going to continue the Cross-Examination of 3-156  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Bazil and Josephine Michell but before I do that I should  indicate that Mr. Irving, as agent for the Attorney-General  of Canada has not returned. Before he went he indicated  that he wasn't going to be asking any questions after my  Cros s-Examinat ion.  Q  Bazil, I have a few more questions about Hattakumex.  Does  Hattakumex territory go all the way from here to Toboggan  Lake?  THE INTERPRETER: You mean here?  MR. PLANT: Here right now, the house in Moricetown where we are  THE WITNESS: Beamont.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   I know about that but I mean from here SOUth?  A  Hattakumex territory runs from Beamont but from where we  are today in this house goes from here to past Toboggan  Lake where there is a cluster of houses.  MR. PLANT: Cluster of houses?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes.  MR. PLANT: Past Toboggan Lake?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Are these houses On a Stream Or Creek Or is there a Stream  nearby?  THE INTERPRETER: He was confused with the boundary which he  says runs between the Hudson Bay Mountain and the other  mountain to the west of it, and the boundary of his  territory goes to as far as the -- what do they call it?  Where the cement blocks are where people pull over for a  bite to eat.  Can't remember the English name for it.  Viewpoint.  MR. PLANT: It's what?  THE INTERPRETER: The viewpoint near the Hudson Bay Mountain.  MR. PLANT: The viewpoint near the Hudson Bay Mountain?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q Is that near Adams Igloo?  A Yes.  Q Is that Where the viewpoint is?  A Yes.  Q Is that the boundary of the territory?  A Yes.  Q So further south of that is not Hattakumex?  A It's Gyologet territory.  Q Was there a time 15 or 16 years ago, Bazil, when you wanted 3-157  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  to transfer your trap line to your son?  A  That's not the way things are done. It's usually done  through the clan system. The people who --or the person  who would inherit my name would then become -- the person  who takes my name would become the owner of the territory.  Q   Was there a time 15 or 16 years ago when notwithstanding  what he has just said, he wanted to register the trap line  in the name or names of his sons?  A  No. No, that is not how we do our business.  Q   Now, well, is the house where this examination is taking  place, is this house on Hattakumex territory?  A  Yes.  Q   Bazil, you know that just up the road a few yards there's  a restaurant and church, Gospel Church, do you know about  that? Just a few yards up the road?  A  Yes.  Q   Is that on Hattakumex territory?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: The land where the church is presently sitting  belonged to my uncle, Johnny Austin.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is it part of Hattakumex territory?  A   Yes.  Q   Do the people who have the church and the restaurant have  Hattakumex permission to be there?  A   No, they didn't.  Q   Are they    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine said that I know about it and I  agreed to it when the church was built there.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   When was that?  JOSEPHINE:  Maybe it was about five years ago.  Q   But Bazil didn't know about it?  JOSEPHINE:  At that time we were asking him and he was out  partying a lot   Q   Bazil was out partying a lot?  JOSEPHINE:   and he was not interested in the church being  built there.  Q   Does this highway  that runs in front of the house here  run on Hattakumex  land? 3-158  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  THE INTERPRETER:  The main highway?  MR. PLANT: The main highway?  THE WITNESS: Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Do you think the people should have to ask for permission  before they drive on the highway? I mean the white people  and the Indian people?  A   The government took the lands for the highway and they've  been looking after it.  I don't know how we can talk to  them about having people ask permission to use the highways  Q   Does he think that they should ask permission?  A  No, it shouldn't be that way. The road belongs to the  government.  Q   Bazil, do you want the road to go away or are you content  with having the road stay there?  A   It's fine with me, they don't have to move the road.  If  they re-route the highway somewhere else they would destroy  more of the land and I don't want to see that happen.  Q   Bazil and Josephine, do you know about the land claim  which the tribal council has made to the federal government  The government in Ottawa?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  Bazil said that he is aware that the tribal  council has made a claim against the federal government  for the lands. Josephine isn't aware as she should be.  MR. PLANT: Isn't as aware as she should be?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is Hattakumex part of that claim? The house -- I'll ask  another question. Does Bazil know if the House of Many  Eyes is part of that claim?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: Yes they are and Josephine said that she's  not aware of it as she should be because she's away  travelling.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   What is it that the House Of Many Eyes wants from the  federal government?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN 3-159  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  THE WITNESS: Speaking for myself and Josephine just some of  the things that we want if the land claim's settled would  be some farm equipment, some land so that our children  could utilize the land, for the benefit of the future  grandchildren that we may have.  MR. PLANT: Is there more that they said?  THE INTERPRETER:  They "ere asking each other I don't know what  else we want.  MR. PLANT: What did Josephine say?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  She's also talking about farm machinery,  barns for the hay and animals, and skidoos so that they  could go trapping.  MR. PLANT: Is that a translation of everything that they said?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:   Power saws.  MR. PLANT: Is that everything they said?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. PLANT: Is that all they    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  She said that, I've forgotten how to drive,  and Bazil one time, he tried to get Josephine to drive  and she just about ran off the road. She got mad and  never got back in the car again.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   The things, Bazil and Josephine, that you were just talking  about, are those the things that you want from the federal  government in the land claim?  That you have made to the  federal government or that the tribal council has made to  the federal government?  A  These are just some of the things that we want so that our  children and grandchildren   THE INTERPRETER: Josephine says that her house is small and  it's getting old.  THE WITNESS: Also want farm machinery that plants oats or  barley.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Bazil and Josephine, do you see any difference between the  land claim that the tribal council has submitted to the 3-160  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  federal government and the court case against the province?  All the previous questions were directed to the federal  government land grant hut it sounds like the answers were  general and they may have been general and if that is so  I would like that confirmed?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  MR. PLANT:  What has Bazil said just up to now?  THE INTERPRETER:  Just a second.  OFF THE RECORD  THE INTERPRETER:  They "ere asking if it is the B.C. government  now talking about our lands and this court case, and I  told them yes. Bazil said that our own government, we  have our own lawyer working for us and hope that things  are done right. And he is pointing to Louise Mandell.  MR. PLANT:  I think we've ascertained earlier that Bazil and  Josephine, you know that there's a government in Ottawa  and a government in Victoria, and I want to know if you  want the same thing from both governments?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  Bazil said that we hope that the people who  work for us -- he was saying Tanya and Louise --he was  also asking me when the court case starts would I be going  down to speak on their behalf and talk to them.  He said  that when they talk they should do things properly and  Josephine said that she does not really understand how  the governments work.  She just knows that there is a  government in Ottawa and a government in Victoria.  She  really doesn't understand how the government works.  She  also asked me if these were some of the people that would  be going to talk for them and whether I would be going  when the court case starts. She asked if Louise is going  there to speak on their behalf.  She's asking if that's  why she's here.  MR. PLANT: That's Why she's?  THE INTERPRETER: She's asking if that is the reason why Louise  is here now.  MR. PLANT: That's the reason we are all here. Let's change  the subject.  Q  Bazil, do you ever remember if there was a time a long,  long time ago when you were a young man or a little boy  when some chiefs from around here went to Ottawa? 3-161  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  A   I remember some of our people from here as well as from  Babine, as well as the Gitksan people, going to Ottawa  to talk to the government.  I heard about that but I was  very young at the time and I didn't participate.  Q  Does he know why they went?  Does he know if they went to  talk about their lands?  A  Yes, they did talk about the land.  They talked to  governments, sometimes went against us, and there was  some meetings held at the hall in Moricetown.  Q  Was that also when Bazil was a young boy or young man?  A  Yes.  Q  Has Bazil ever heard of the McKenna-McBride  Commission?  I don't remember much of the McKenna-McBride  because t,e  were always out on the land either trapping or at work  at the pole camps.  Q  Does Bazil remeMber if those were the people that came  around the hall that he mentioned a few minutes ago?  A  They may have been the people, I don't know which  government they were from.  We were always not in the  village so I can't tell you much more.  Q  Bazil, do you still have the name Kowakan?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Yes I do.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Does that name have territory that goes with it?  A  The Kowakan territory that goes with that name is around  Maxam Lake.  Because of my age, I am not able to get up  there that often.  There is a person who is from the  Gitdumden clan who is caretaking it.  Q  Who is?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine said that this person that is  caretaking the territory, close to the road, and she  doesn't know what the situation is regarding that  territory.  MR. PLANT:  Who doesn't, Bazil or the caretaker?  THE INTERPRETER: Bazil and Josephine.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  I'm sorry if I've already asked this and forgotten the  answer, but who is the person who is the caretaker?  A  Henry Isaac. 3-162  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  Henry?  THE INTERPRETER:  Isaac.  ge is the person that lives near  Broman Lake.  MR. PLANT:  What lake?  THE INTERPRETER: Broman Lake.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Is he a Wet'suwet'en person?  A  Yes.  Q  And he is the caretaker for the territory of Kowakan?  A  Yes.  Q  Just to make sure I have this correctly, neither Bazil  nor Josephine can tell me what is happening on that  territory now because someone else is looking after it  for them? That's correct?  THE INTERPRETER: Josephine said that once Ronnie completes  his business taking over the name, that he would take  over that territory.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Who is this Ronnie?  What is the last name?  A  Ronnie Mitchell.  Q  Is there any other territory that belongs to Kowakan  besides the land around Barrett Lake? Maxam, excuse  me, Maxam Lake.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  The only -- the territory that goes with Kowakan  is around the Maxam Lake area.  That territory is quite  large.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said if I were to nay ge dadaydus -- that  means if I were to go there with his permission, if I  were to fish I would catch a lot of salmon because there  is a lot of salmon on that lake.  His son-in-law had  gone fishing there last summer and caught some salmon,  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Can Bazil describe the boundaries Of the territory?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Because I haven't been on the territory I can't  describe the boundary for you. The person who is  caretaking mat' know the boundary.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN 3-163  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  THE INTERPRETER:  Maryanne Austin and Martin Luggi used to  trap there with his father.  With her father.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine says that there's a village there  by the lake and that Philip Antoine and Martin Luggi  live there and they have some land set aside as reserve  for them.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  There's an Indian reserve at Maxam Lake, isn't there?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes .  Q  Are those two people from Moricetown or do they live  around there at Maxam Lake?  JOSEPHINE:  They used to live there but not now. Edna Michell  also used to live there.  Q  Where do those people live now?  A  Edna Michell lives in Burns Lake.  Philip Antoine is in  Burns Lake. Martin Luggi now lives at Stellako.  Q  At Where?  THE INTERPRETER:  Stellako.  She's asking me if I know where  Martin Luggi lives. She thinks it is Stellako but she  can't remember the name.  BY MR. PLaNT:  Q  Are those three people, are they Wet'suwet'en people?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes they are.  Q  What clan does Henry Isaac belong to?  A  Gitdumden.  Q  Beg your pardon?  THe INTERPRETER:  Gitdumden.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Is Ronnie Mitchell related to either of you, Bazil and  Josephine?  JOSEPHINE:  What are you talking about?  You know he is my  grandson.  Q  Is he the son of one of your children, Josephine?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE:  Ronnie is the son of Elizabeth who is the daughter  of Lizzette Naziel, and Lizzette is my sister.  MR.PLaNT:  That word grandson can be a real fooler around  here!  Q  What was Maxam Tommy's clan? 3-164  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  JOSEPHINE:  Laksilyu.  Q   What is Ronnie Mitchell's Clan?  JOSEPHINE:  Again Laksilyu.  Q   Is there a name -- no -- it's Kowakan, all right.  Your father, Lame Arthur Michell, he had rights  around Barrett Lake, didn't he, Bazil?  A   Yes.  Q   And his clan was Tsayu.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  My father was Laksilyu and my, ....     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  My father's father was Laksamshu.  It's not  Tsayu.  MR. PLANT:  Yes, I appreciate that.  Q   Tsayu is beaver?  A   Yes.  Q   Was there a name for the territory around Barrett Lake?  A   Yinstankyet.  Q   Who has the rights to that territory now?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: The territory's registered with Margaret Williams  and she's Tsayu.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is that Martin Williams    THE INTERPRETER:  Margaret.  MR. PLANT:  Margaret.  Q   Is She from Moricetown?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q   Does She have a Chief's name?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q   Josephine, do you know what the chief's name is?  JOSEPHINE:  Wilat.  Q   Josephine, you said that the territory was registered in  her name, do you mean there is a trap line that is  registered in her name with the game warden in Smithers?  JOSEPHINE:  I'm not too sure but that's what I've heard.  Q I want you to be sure that I didn't misunderstand the  last answer because you used the word "registered" in  that answer.  Was that a word that Josephine had used?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes, that's what I heard. 3-165  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q   Josephine or Bazil, do either of you know the boundaries  of the territory around Barrett Lake?  THE INTERPRETER:  Josephine said that she's not familiar with  the boundary, lust that she's done some trapping around  Grouse Mountain.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is Grouse Mountain part of that territory?  A The Grouse Mountain is part of that territory and part  of the territory includes Hie Tait which I have told you  about before. The totem pole is just a short one,  length of the floor to the ceiling which was used as a  marker and the territory belonged to Laksilyu and went  to the river and then crossed the river. The territory  that is now registered in Margaret Williams' name.  Q  Does she live at Walcott?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, she lives here.  Q  Was Hie Tait a village?  A  Yes.  Q   Where Was it in relation to Barrett Lake?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Near Hie Tait there are several lakes. One is  Deeltsik, another one is Woodelk tas itan, and another  one is called Diistaak.  All these lakes, there are many  lake trout where my mother used to fish for salmon.  She  would use dogs to pack the salmon.  There were smokehouses  near each of these lakes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Bazil, do you know the English names for these lakes?  A   I don't know the English names for these lakes.  Q   Was Hie Tait on the banks of the Bulkley River?  A  Hie Tait is on this side of the highway as you hit Grouse  Mountain, and there's a lake up on top of the hill,  there's a lake, and that's where Hie Tait used to be.  Q   Is it this side of Houston?  A  Yes.  Q   Is it this side of where the Morice River comes into  the Bulkley?  A  Yes.  Q   Is it this side of Walcott?  A  No, Walcott is across the river.  Across the Bulkley.  Q   On the other side of the river from Hie Tait?  Josephine:  Yes. 3-166  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q   Is Hie Tait near the Thompson Creek?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  I don't know if that's the creek.  There are two  creeks that flow through Hie Tait. I don't know the  English names for them.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Bazil, would you be able to point it out on a map where  Hie Tait is?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  Kloo leet inlee.  THE INTERPRETER:  The English name for that is Deep Creek.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Is that One Of the Creeks near Hie Tait?  A   It's about eight or nine miles from Hie Tait.  Q   Which Way?  A   This side of....  Q   There's no Indian reserve?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  Bazil said that there was a reserve at Hie  Tait and he doesn't know whether  it is still a reserve  now. Josephine  was asking Bazil about the area t,here  their father was kicked off their land so Bazil was  describing the area where their father was kicked off  the land. He described a small canyon where the creek  flows through as the area where their father was kicked  off the land.  MR. PLANT:  I thought that was near Barrett Lake.  THE INTERPRETER:  That's "hat he was describing to Josephine.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   There's a difference between Barrett Lake though and Hie  Tait?  A   Yes. They're in different  places.  Q   I am glad I got that straight.  l#ho is Christine Holland?  A   Doris Mitchell's grandmother.  Q   Is she from Moricetown?  A   Yes.  Q   Is she a chief? 3-167  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And she's buried in Moricetown.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  She's dead?  A    . . . .in the graveyard, it is the first grave.  Q  When she was alive what was her clan and if she had a  chief's name what was  it?  A  Gilserhyu.  Knedebeas.  Q  Who has that name now?  A  Sarah,  who  lives in Prince George.  Q  Is  that Sarah Layten?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes. The other name that she had Katherine Michell  has now and that name is Weli.  Q  Is  that also a chief's  name?  A  Yes.  Q  Is  Lucy Namox also a chief in the Gilserhyu clan?  JOSEPHINE:   Yes.  Q  Is  she   OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  He is just saying he is a chief of the Gilserhyu.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Is  her chief name Goohlaht?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  Goohlaht,  the house is still in Hazelton.  Hagwilget.  MR. PLANT:   In Hagwilget?  THE Interpreter:   Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Bazil and Josephine have told the story of how their  family  was kicked off the land at Barrett Lake; was Bazil  himself  there when this happened?  A  We  were in that territory, George Naziel and I were out  trapping near the lakes and when we came hack Christine  ran and met us and said that there was a fight with some  white men and that my father and Naziel were put in jail  but not the white people.  Q   Was Josephine there or not?  Was Josephine born?  THE INTERPRETER:  That's why she was laughing, she wasn't born  yet. 3-168  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  MR. PLANT:  There in spirit perhaps but not in flesh.  Q You spoke of a place called Nadina Mountain which I think  you said was Gitdumden territory; do you remember speaking about that?  A  Yes.  Q   You have been Up there, have you, Bazil?  A  No.  Q   Do you know if there are Wet'suwet'en people around there?  A  Patrick and Tyee Lake David, Peter Pierre all used to live  around that area. They hunted and trapped that area.  That territory belonged to Gitdumden.  The boundary went  as far as Driftwood  Creek, from Driftwood Creek onwards  belongs to Laksilyu.  Q   Bazil, do you know if there are still people hunting or  trapping up and around Nadina Mountain?  A   I don't know if the people are.  The people that used to  are all dead now.  Q   Bazil, do you know if the other side of Nadina Mountain  if there are Wet'suwet'en people that hunt or trap there?  A  That belongs to the Babine people.  Can't remember the  hereditary  chief who has that territory.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Dim tsum suk was Laksamshu and his wife was  Laksilyu.  Ge don't know whether it was he or his wife  who had that territory.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Are they both from Babine?  A  Yes.  Q  Is that the territory south of Nadina Mountain?  THE INTERPRETER:  South?  MR. PLANT:  The other side was what my question originally was  THE INTERPRETER:  The other side of Nadina Mountain?  MR. PLANT:   Yes.  THE WITNESS: Yes, it is on the other side of Nadina Mountain.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Which direction  is that?  A   From Nadina mountain the other side belongs to Babine  people  I told you about, and the area this side belongs  to Patrick, Tyee Lake David and Round Lake Tommy and  those people,  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN 3-169  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  MR. PLANT: What is Josephine saying?  THE INTERPRETER: They were asking each other about the mountain  peak, whether it belonged to Laksilyu or another clan.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Which mountain peak Was that?  A   Tsit geets, just further east, near Topley.  Q   Further east from where?  From here?  THE INTERPRETER:  From here.  Near Topley.  MR. PLANT: When Bazil talks about the other side of Nadina  mountain he means the other side from here?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: I've described to you the area around Nadina  mountain. West of Nadina Mountain belongs to the people  I mentioned to you, who are Wet'suwet'en, and north  belongs to the Babine people.  MR. PLANT:  I have one more question, changing the subject.  Q   Josephine, I think you mentioned when you were talking to  or giving your evidence to Louise about logging at Boulder  Creek, I think it was either Josephine or you, Bazil, who  mentioned that they were -- you thought that logging had  been done by Bill Morris;  do you remember that name,  Bill Morris?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes, he was the one.  Q   Is he a white person or Wet'suwet'en, or who is Bill  Morris?  JOSEPHINE:  Yes, he is.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  JOSEPHINE:  Yes, he was white man.  MR. PLANT:  White man?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q   Bazil, if you ever find the map in your bedroom would you  tell Louise or tell Victor and have Victor tell Louise  so we could all have a look at it or have a copy of it?  Would you ask Bazil that?  THE INTERPRETER:  You want him to give it to me and forward the  man to Louise?  MR. PLANT:  Whichever is comfortable  for him.  MS. MANDELL:   If he finds it.  THE WITNESS:  That's the area that Toboggan Lake is the area  that I want to straighten out with the game warden to see 3-170  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  if it has been given to any white people.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Did you make a request of him though if he finds the map  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes he did.  MR. PLANT:  Was that his response to it?  THE INTERPRETER:  That was his response.  MR. PLANT:  I'll leave my request on the record.  Those are all  my questions.  Thank you very much, Josephine.  Thank you  very much, Bazil.  I don't know if Ms. Mandell has any  questions arising out of that or not.  MS. MANDELL: I have a very few questions for Bazil.  RE-EXAMINATION BY MS. MANDELL:  Q  Bazil, before the fish ladder was out in in the canyon  did the fish, from your memory, have any trouble getting  up the canyon?  A  The salmon had no trouble getting up the river.  They were  like a strand of rope, you could see them going un the  falls.  Q  Do you know the Wet'suwet'en meaning for Moricetown?  A  The old name for Moricetown was Kya Wiget and that translates into "old village".  Q  Do you know whether or not before the road was put in  right through the villages and smokehouses of Moricetown  whether there was any discussions or disagreements among  the chiefs about that road being put in?  THE INTERPRETER:  Which road?  MS. MANDELL: Sixteen.  THE INTERPRETER:   I've lost it.  BY MS . MANDELL:  Q  Whether before the road Was put in between the villages  and smokehouses  whether Bazil is aware of any discussions  or disagreements  which the chiefs had to having the road  put in there?  A  Before the road came through there was just a foot trail  that went through the Deep Creek area and there was really  rough going.  Some hills were steep and you had to tie  ropes to toboggans to get things down.  I don't recall  the chiefs speaking about the lands where the highways  went through.  I can't recall anything.  Q  You mentioned Joseph Michell as a person who might possibly  take over Hattakumex;  where does Joseph Michell live?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  IN WET'SUWET'EN 3-171  MICHELL, B. & J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  THE WITNESS:  Joseph lives in Burns Lake.  He has a house here.  The reason he is living in Burns Lake because he is  working.  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q  Is he Wet'suwet'en?  A  Yes.  Q  How is Lucy Namox related to you, Bazil?  A  It's my daughter.  Q  Bazil, do you remember your father, Lame Arthur Michell,  applying for the Barrett Lake to the McKenna-McBride  Commission in 1916 and being told that the land wasn't  available?  Do you have any memory of that?  A  No I don't.  Q  Do you know wl?ether or not Mosquito Flats was an old  Wet'suwet'en village?  A  Yes, by the river.  Q  When you say that you want to keep your territory for your  grandchildren, does that Wet'suwet'en word mean for the  younger generation of people in your clan?  A  When I refer to the future generation I am referring to  the people from my clan. The other clan members are being  contacted on their own, I don't know what they're saying.  Q  Were your father and mother in the same clan?  A  They were both Laksilyu.  Q  Is this Unusual to have your father and mother of the same  clan?  A  I don't know exactly how it happened that both my mother  and father are from the same clan.  There are other  examples of when this happened.  In the white society  they get married with whoever they want, I don't know  how this came about.  MS. MANDELL: If I can just go off the record for one moment.    OFF THE RECORD  MS. MANDELL: One question.  MR. PLANT: Let's see if I  can object to it  BY MS. MANDELL:  Q  Now, for the last question. Geoff Plant asked you about  the area near Barrett Lake; is Margaret Williams caretaking that territory near Barrett Lake for her father  who was Laksamshu?  JOSEPHINE:  She probably is.  Tsayu and Laksamshu work as one  clan and she told me that I am the same as Laksamshu.  Whenever there is a feast we help each other. 3-172  MICHELL, B. & J.  MS. MANDELL:  All right.  That's fine.  Good. Thank you.  Thank you very much.  We are finished.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. PLANT:  Thank you very much.  PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED AT 3.10 P.M., 16 MAY 1986.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill, and ability.  VERONICA HARPER bs,)  Official Court Reporter  VH/jg-Mar 21/86 B.C.S.R.A. #263

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