Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Johnny David Vol. 5] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 29, 1986

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 5-2  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  VICTOR JIM,  Wet'suwet'en Interpreter,  Previously Sworn  JOHN DAVID  Witness called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs, previously Sworn,  testifies, as follows:   UPON COMMENCING AT 9.45 a.m., 29 JANUARY,  1986    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT: This is a continuation of the Commission Hearing  of Johnny David which was last adjourned on December  19th and December 20th, 1985. The Witness, Johnny  David, and the Interpreter, Victor Jim, are still under  oath.  You understand that?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT (contd.)  Q  You recall at your feast Jimmy Michell -- or at a feast,  Jimmy Michell was given a name and a territory?  A  When people had gathered for the feast Jimmy Michell had  spoken for me.  Q  Jimmy Michell described that the territory was being  passed to you when you received the name?  A  When the people had gathered all the business was done  then Jimmy Michell mentioned that I was getting the name  and the territory.  After the business was done I got up  so the people could recognize me.  Q  Your territory around the Telkwa River was talked about  at that feast, was it?  A  They had the feast, the Maxlaxlex territory was  described and the people were there to witness that.  Q  At the feast today are the territories described?  A  The same procedure is used as in the past, whoever is  taking a name and the territory,  if the business is run  in the right manner, the chiefs from the various clans  get up and say that it has been run okay, and the person  is worthy of the name. They all speak to that today.  Q  Just one moment.  Is it correct that before you received  the name Maxlaxlex Jimmy Michell looked after the  hunting territory that is now in Maxlaxlex's name? 5-3  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A   Jimmy Michell did look after the territory that he knew  I was the heir to Maxlaxlex.  When the time came the  feast was given and the named territory was given to me.  Q   At our last day you described how you are a caretaker  for Smogelgem's territory; was Jimmy Michell a caretaker  for Maxlaxlex's territory or was he the owner of that  territory?  A   Jimmy Michell and I together own the territory.  Q  Did the Kilwoneetz people trade furs with the Gitksan  people?  A  The ladies who belonged to the Kilwoneetz would marry  into the -- would marry Gitksans and the spouses of the  Kilwoneetz ladies were allowed to come into the  territory to hunt and trap and there were no problems.  Q  Did the Wet' suwet' en people generally in the old days,  that is in the time of your father, trade furs with the  Gitksan people?  A  The people from the Skeena River and the Wet'suwet'en  did trade meats from the various animals, and the  Gitksan people were also invited to hunt in the  territory and so would they. When they went back to  their homes, had a feast, they would show the people the  meat from the game and say to the people that this is  where we got this meat from, so the people could witness  it.  Q  What kind of furs did they give to the Gitksan people?  MR. MILNE: I am not sure that he did say furs, the word was  meats.  MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry.  Q  What kind of meats did they give to the Gitksan people,  and what did they trade for?  A  They traded caribou meat, beaver, bear. No, and other  game with the Gitksan, and there were no white people  who were there. There was no trouble between the  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people.  Q  Now, I asked two questions, the second part of my  question was, what did the Gitksan give in return for  this game?  A  The Gitksan people traded foods that they ate with the  Wet'suwet'en and there were no white people to boss the  Indian people about how to use the land and how much to  take from the land, and there were no problems.  At no  time were there any white people who would boss the  Indian people around.  Q  What specific foods did the Wet'suwet'en  receive from  the Gitksan in those days? 5-4  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  The Giksan people would give the Wet'suwet'en  people seawood, herring eggs and ooligan grease to trade  for the various game meats that the Wet' suwet' en would  give to the Gitksan.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Did the Wet' suwet' en trade with particular -- with the  same house or clan of the Gitksan when they traded?  For  example, would Smogelgem's house or tribe trade with a  parallel clan or house of the Gitksan?  A  There was no particular trading between houses or clans.  People traded with each other because they cared for  each other and, again, there were no white people to  tell us how to trade or who to trade with.  Q  Did the Wet' suwet' en also trade with the Nisga people on  the Nass and the Tsimshiam people on the coast?  A  Yes, the same way.  Q  DO you use soap berries today?  A  Yes, it is still used today.  Q  Was it used in the old days,  in your father's and  grandfather's time?  A  They did as well.  That was one of our main staple food.  Q  DO you use Saskatoon berries today, and were they used  in your grandfather's time?  A  The Saskatoon was also used.  It was either dried or  made into jam.  Q  Did you use what is commonly known as low bush  blueberries in the old days, and do you use those today?  A It is still used today, and today it is usually jarred.  Q  Were they used in the old days?  A  It was used in the old days and blueberries were dried.  Q  Blueberries are also used today?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he said that.  MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry.  Q  Did you use huckleberries  in the old days and are they  used today?  A  Yes, that was used in the old days and it is still used  today, and it is usually jarred.  Q  Were any of these kinds of berries traded with the  coastal people, such as the Tsimshiam, the Nisga or the  Gitksan?  A  Yes, all the berries that I mentioned have been used in  trade with the Nass River people, the Gitksan and the  Tsimshiam.  Q  Were all of those berries, that is soap berries,  blueberries,  huckleberries and Saskatoon, dried before  they were traded? 5-5  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A  Yes, it was dried.  All the berries were dried, as well  as soap berries.  Q  Were they dried over a fire or were they dried just in  the air or in the open, in the heat of the sun?  A  There was a frame about a foot wide and three or four  feet long. The berries all would be boiled first, then  leaves would be put on a frame and the berry was poured  on the leaves, and the fire was lit underneath the frame  and the smoke would dry the berries.  Q  Were they packed in a special way to be traded?  A  The berries once dried would be rolled up and tied  together.  Q  Were they put in special boxes?  A  They were put in wooden boxes and people made sure that  the berries were clean, they were not dirty, and they  were transported and traded.  Q  Did people have -- were the boxes considered one of the  units of value?  Like, did each box of a particular  kind  of berries depending on its size have a specific value  for trading purposes?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:   The berries,  once  dried, were put  in cedar boxes  and  THE INTERPRETER:  -- and he gave several dimensions --  THE WITNESS:  -- these were -- this was from cedar, they were  carved and painted, and the inside was like the top of  this table, it was very clean, and then when they traded  people want boxes as well as berries inside, and there  was no specific amount of money that was attached to  each box.  MR. GRANT:  Did he describe what the dimensions were? I am  asking you, as the Interpreter?  THE INTERPRETER:  He gave the various dimensions, some that  high and some that high, and others quite high.  MR. GRANT:  So you're saying    THE INTERPRETER:  Different size boxes. He is saying they  were different sizes again.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  The ooligan grease was transported in the same  way.  In the cedar boxes.  THE INTERPRETER:  He is saying that --  THE WITNESS:  -- Don Ryan knows about the boxes I am talking  about. 5-6  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  He is saying the cedar was used in the old  days to make caskets which people were buried in.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Where did the Wet'suwet'en people meet the Nisga to  trade with them? Did they go to the Nass or did they  meet part way between, or did the Nisga come here?  A  The Wet' suwet' en would go up the Nass. There was a foot  trail near Kitwancool.  That is the t [ail they used to  go up to do their trading.  Q   You described in this Commission the history of Samaxsam  and the rock that came off and some Wet' suwet' en were  blamed for it; were those Wet'suwet'en on a trading trip  to the Nass when that happened?  A   Yes,  it was during a trading trip that the story of  Samaxsam, where the -- Samaxsam's grandfather -- where  the rock was tipped over and two people were killed.  Q  Where did the Wet'suwet'en trade with the Nisga?  Not  the Nisga, the Gitksan?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  When they traded with the Gitksan they would  meet at Hagwilget and smoked salmon was one of the items  that was traded. And they would meet at Hagwilget.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Who traded smoked salmon?  Did the Gitksan give the  Wet'suwet'en smoked salmon or Wet'suwet'en give that to  the Gitksan?  A  Was the people of the Nass River who would give the  Wet'suwet'en smoked salmon, and then Wet'suwet'en would  give the Nass River people the foods that they ate.  Q   I was referring earlier to the Gitksan    A   It was the Nass River people who gave the smoked salmon.  Q   Okay.  A  Not trading with the Wet'suwet'en.  Q  Okay.  Where did the Wet'suwet'en trade with the coastal  or Tsimshiam people?  Where did they meet to trade?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  The Tsimshiam people would come down by canoe.  They would meet at an area just this side of where the  'Ksan office is now. It's name was Bisgeebul.  This is 5-7  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Where the Tsimshiam people brought their seafoods and  the Wet'suwet'en brought their wild game. That is what  was traded.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Was that across the river from where the 'Ksan office  presently is or was it on the same side of the river?  I'm referring to the Bulkley River.  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes. He said it wasn't across the river, it  was this side, on the side where the 'Ksan village is.  THE WITNESS:  Southtown would be in this area, and there is a  creek that flows through here which is what they call  Bisgeebul, Old Hazelton would be here, and that's where  the Tsimshiam would come ashore.  MR. GRANT: can yoU from your description -- you have said  here and there, are you saying they came ashore on the  South Hazelton side or on the opposite side of the  river?  DO yoU know?  Your interpretation?  THE INTERPRETER:  He told me it is not on the South Hazelton  side, it is on the Old Town side.  MR. GRANT: JUSt for the record,  I just want to be clear what  sides you are talking about.  Q  Did the Wet'suwet'en send specific people to trade?  Were there specific Wet'suwet'en chiefs or persons in  the house who were responsible to take care of trading  missions to this spot?  A  There was no particular types of people that were sent.  It was the people who had the items to be traded.  Q   Did you ever go on any trading missions to the Nass  yourself?  A   I did not myself but my father did.  When he was  younger.  Q   Did you go on any trading missions up to Bisgeebul?  A   I know where the creek is, during my time I did not go  there.  I was told about this by my father.  Q   Did he go up there?  Did your father go up there?  A  Yes he did. I was not born when the Tsimshiam people  would come down and trade. I know where Bisgeebul is,  we used to play on the sand there.  Q   Was there in your or your father's time a specific thing  that was most desired by the Gitksan, Nisga or the  Bisgeebul which you had? That is, of all these things  you traded, was there something of special value to  them?  A  There was no particular item that was valued.  Berries 5-8  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  and wild game were traded. The Nass River people since  they had a lot of salmon would bring a lot of smoked  salmon for trading.  Q  Do you remember a time when there were caribou in your  territories?  Either in Smogelgem or Kilwoneetzen  territory?  A  During my time I remember there being a lot of caribou.  My territories was Kilwoneetzen territory and there was  some caribou behind this mountain peak,  in this  direction.  JUSt past the power line.  THE INTERPRETER:  Then he describes another peak on this side  where there was caribou.  MR. GRANT:  For the record,  from the place where we are in  Johnny David's house he and the Interpreter were  pointing out a mountain which would be -- which is  visible from the window of his house and generally a  northerly direction, Of southeasterly direction,  I would  think.  It is on the direction away from the river which ,  is visible to all that are present here.  Q  When the caribou were here did your people hunt caribou  and did they trade either the caribou meat or the furs  with these other groups we have been talking about?  A  The Nass River people, the Gitksans and Tsimshiam people  like the meat of the caribou.  That's what the  Wet'suwet'en traded.  The fur was used by the  Wet'suwet'en themselves for gloves as well as the  webbing for the snow shoes.  Q  The fur was used for the webbing of the snow shoes or  was some other part of the animal?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: It was the hide of the caribou.  After it was  dried it was cut into tiny little strips.  That was  called babiche.  That is when it was used for webbing  for the snow shoes.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Was there other things made out of the furs and used by  the Wet'suwet'en?  A  The hide of the caribou is used for moccasins as well as  for tent.  Q  Are there caribou in your territory now?  A  There are not as many as there used to be. When Alfred  Joseph and I through the territory we seen five caribou.  Q  That was flying over the entire Wet'suwet'en  territory  or part of it? 5-9  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A  The area around the head of the Telkwa, that whole area.  MR. GRANT:  Is that the headwaters of the Telkwa River that he  is referring to when you say head of Telkwa?  THE WITNESS:  We flew the whole area along the Telkwa River  area, and we landed in a flat area, and when the white  man came he start shooting all the bulls.  Therefore  they were unable to reproduce and there aren't as many  as there used to be. They are doing the same with the  moose, shooting all the bulls and they're not  reproducing, and it is the white man that are doing  that.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   There are moose in your territory now,  is that right?  A  There aren't as many as used to be, most of the moose  have been shot by the white people.  Q   When the caribou were more common in your territory,  were there also moose there?  A  When there were many caribou in our territory there  weren't too many moose.  They started to arrive around  1901, 1902.  That is when the moose population started  to come to the area. Before that there used to be few  moose around.  As soon as people seen them --  THE INTERPRETER:  --he mentioned the white people --  THE WITNESS:  -- they were shot.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Did your people after the moose came trade moose furs or  moose meat with the Gitksan, Nisga or Tsimshiam?  A  Not that much, because all the moose had moved into  their territories.  And the people mentioned would shoot  their own moose.  Q   Do you still trade for ooligan grease now?  A  When I have friends come from the west we still trade.  I give them whatever I have and they would give me  seafood.  Then the bull moose have all been killed, the  Americans have come into the territory and they get  license to hunt and they just take the head.  Other  white people in the area do the same.  When the Indians  shoot the moose....     OFF THE RECORD  THE  WITNESS:   When the Indian  shoots a  moose, the game  warden  is on their backs. And the Indians are scared of the  game warden.  MR. GRANT: Is that the answer? 5-10  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   What kinds -- I'll come back to what you were saying  about the moose and the hunting of the moose but right  now I would like to continue about this trade for a few  more minutes.  What kinds of things do you now trade to  people from the west for ooligan grease or other things?  A  The trading is not as much as it used to be but it still  happens.  I am talking about Americans shooting the  moose, just for the heads.  Q   What do you give to the people from the west when you  get things from them now?  A  We trade various meat from the games that we get and we  trade for seafood with them.  Q   DO you trade furs or hides still?  It should be clear I  am not just talking about you individually but you or  other people, Kilwoneetzen people?  A  The hide of the moose is now used to make moccasins,  jackets and other things, and the moose hide itself now  is an expensive item to get.  Q   DO you know if any of the Wet' suwet' en people trade  moose hides to the Gitksan, Nisga or Tsimshiam today?  A  Not as much as in the past. people nowadays use moose  hide for gloves, jackets, which are sold.  Q   DO you still use soap berries?  A  Yes, still use soap berries, as well as all the other  berries.  We ate berries. In the old days they were  dried and now they're mostly jarred.  Q  Do other people -- do the younger people collect those  berries for you today or do you trade for them?  A  Some people pick berries for me.  I also buy some of the  berries from other people.  THE INTERPRETER:  He wants to have a drink of water.  MR. GRANT: Okay, go off the record.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT: On the record.  Q   Are the people who pick the berries for you members of  your house or your clan?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  Some, mostly ladies pick berries for me, and  others from my clan as well as house also pick berries  for me. 5-11  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  THE WITNESS:  When the people -- or when the ladies from  other clans pick for me, that is paid for in the feast  hall.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  DO the Kilwoneetzen people have a specific area where  berries were grown or where they harvested berries?  A  The area that was best for picking berries was the  Dennis Mountain area. People from Babine, Hazelton and  here would pick berries up there, and the same was done  with the salmon.  MR. GRANT:  With the?  THE INTERPRETER:  Salmon.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   What kind of berries grew in the Dennis Mountain area  which were of particular value to your people?  A  The berry that was of some importance to trade was the  dagee, which is the huckleberries.  Q   Did people burn areas in order to help the berries grow  better?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  The fires were usually not started by the  people. It was usually by nature.  After a two year  period is when your berries would start growing well  again.  THE INTERPRETER:  He also said that people respected the land  and they were very careful with fire.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   Earlier on in the Commission, not the last time but  probably the time before that, you had referred us to a  plant that is at -- the root of a plant which you had,  where did you collect that plant?  Where did you get  that plant from?  A   The root that I was going to show you,  I couldn't find  it. I dug that myself up on Hudson   Bay Mountain, near  where they ski.  Q   That's in the Laksilyu territory,  isn't it?  A   Yes.  Q  Does that plant have special spiritual value to you?  A   This root I was going to show you which I can't find,  that root is used to clean a gun when it's not shooting  straight. You put it through the barrel three times. 5-12  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  And it is also a strong medicine.  Q   What is the Wet' suwet' en word for this particular root?  A   The Wet'suwet'en word is konyay.  Q  What this root -- the root is put through the gun to  help the gun shoot straight -- I believe that was the  last answer, right.  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Also for medicinal purposes.  Q   Have the Wet' suwet' en used konyay for as long as - - for  a long time before the time of your grandfather?  A   The root has been used for a long, long time during my  father's time and his father's.  Q   Were you taught how to harvest this root by your father?  A   I observed my father when he dug the root, that is where  I learned from.  His father taught him and so on back  through the years.  MR. GRANT:  IS his answer through?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q Does this root generally grow high up in the mountains?  A Yes, usually in the mountain area.  THE INTERPRETER:  pointed to this area up around here.  THE WITNESS:  YOU could see the leaves on the mountains.  MR . GRANT:  Right.  THE WITNESS:  Of the root.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Is it part of the Wet' suwet' en tradition that you would  take this root from a place on your clan's territory and  each clan, each person who used the root would take it  from their clan's territory?  A   The root is taken from anywhere you see it. You just  don't dig it in particular areas.  Q   Yes.  A   They belonged to the houses or clans.  Q   Are only certain people authorized or have the right to  dig this root and use this?  Use konyay?  A   Everybody use it.  Q   Is there any other kind of root that has special  spiritual value that grows by the rivers?  A   The ones that grow by the rivers,  lakes or swamp is  referred -- is called xelxtuk.  It'S bad medicine.  If  you don't know how to use it. It'S people who don't  know how to use it, people who don't know how to use it  pick it and they would get sick.  MR.  MILNE: can I have the spelling of that? 5-13  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR. GRANT:  For the record,  it is X-E-L-X-T-U-K.  THE WITNESS:  Even I don't use it,  it's that bad.  BY MR. GRANT  Q  In the old days were certain people trained to learn how  to use xelxtuk?  Were certain people trained how to use  it?  A  There is certain people who knew how to use this plant.  The only ones that were allowed to use it.  My father  told me not to use it in my lifetime since you don't  know the plant and how to use it.  Q  DO you know anyone who was trained how to use it?  A  My father used it.  There weren't too many other people  who knew how to use the plant.  Q  What did your father do with this plant, xelxtuk?  A  They ate it. They would chop it into small pieces and  eat it. There was some very dangerous medicine.   Some  used it to wash their hands.  Q  What would it do when they used -- why would they eat it  or use it to wash their hands?  A  When the person who uses it to wash their hands they  would touch a woman and the woman would get very sick.  Others used it to -- for luck when they went out  hunting.  THE INTERPRETER: Then he gave an example of myself and my  family.  He said if I took this xelxtuk and used it I  would have to stay away from my wife and my child for a  month.  If I don't do that I see my wife and child  within that month and I will not be lucky.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q DO you know of another poisonous -- another plant that  grows around the lake which is very dangerous? I will  try to pronounce the Wet'suwet'en name, oxyenikyo?     OFF THE RECORD  THE INTERPRETER:  He said that's poison.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  Is it used   A  Oxyenikyo  is poison. If horses or cattle who eat it  they would die.  It grows basically around the edges of  the lakes.  Q  Was it used by the Wet'suwet'en at all in the old days  or now?  A  I can't recall how this was used or what purpose it was 5-14  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Used for.  It was really bad poison.  The horse and the  cows can smell this plant.  Q   I wanted to ask you just to clarify the question I asked  earlier about your mother.  Was your mother quite old  when she died?  A  My mother was very, very old when she died.  My father  died when he was 45 years old in 1918.  Q   Your mother's name was Suwitsbain?  A   Yes, Suwitsbain.  Q  Was she given the white name of Monique?  A  Monica.  She was baptized and married with that name.  Q  Your mother had two husbands and her first husband --  did your mother have two husbands?  A  My mother had two husbands.  First one was Smogelgem.  Q  That was your father?  A  That was my father.  The second one was Alexander.  Q  Alexander?  A  Alexander Dzibun.  Q  Where did she live with Alexander Dzibun?  A  They live at Pack Lake, which is near Francis Lake.  Q  Did your mother marry Alexander before or after your  father died?  A  My mother married Alexander after five or six years  after my father had died.  Q  Your mother died in Hagwilget?  A  Yes, she's buried there.  Q  JUSt one moment. Did your father or anyone else use his  territory for ranching or farming?  A  No, they did not use it for ranching or cattle.  I was  the only one who looked after the land. No one else had  brought any animals for my father.  MR. GRANT:  For my father:  THE INTERPRETER:  For my father.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  So did you use it for ranching or farming?  A  My father had many horses on the land. Afterwards I  also had horses as well as cattle.  Q  Was this on your father's territory?  A  Yes.  Q  In an area near Perow?  A  Yes, near perow.  I have been looking after the land as  a young man up to now as an old man.  Q  Okay.  Who    A  I taught my son Moses the territory, as well as trapping  on the territory.  Q  When did you farm or raise horses and cattle on your 5-15  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  father's territory and when did it stop?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  As a young man I raised horses and cattle on  the land, and my father had raised horses before that.  MR. GRANT:   Is that  it?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Did you grow hay on the land for the horses and cattle?  A  Yes I did.  I grow hay and oats on the land.  Q  What did you do with the horses and the cattle that you  raised?  A   I sold the animals after they started growing old.  Q  Were they milk cattle or meat cattle?  A  Milk cows.  Jersey cows.  Q   Did other people in your house or in your clan or in  your father's house or his clan help you with your  farming?  A   People from my clan did the haying and they were paid  for it.     OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   When did you stop farming on this territory?  A   It was about -- I quit farming when the hard times  came. I sold cattle and horses.  It was about 1926.  Q   Did any white government agency interfere in any way  with your farming on your father's territory?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  There were government people around, and I would  send my cows to Rupert to be sold.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Did any government agency, like Indians Affairs, Of the  government agent or anyone else try to stop you from  farming on your father's territory?  A  No, they did not prevent me from farming.  It was the  Indian Agent who signed for me.  When I got the land,  just like the white man.  Q   Did the Indian Agent interfere with your farming on your  father's territory?  A  No, he didn't. I had been on the land as a young man 5-16  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  and was on the land until I grew old.  Q   It was my understanding  that you were persuaded to move  off your farm by somebody, do you remember that?  A   It was Mr. Loring, the Indian Agent, who had tried to  convince me to move off the land and he had promised me  some land in Hagwilget which I never got, and he did the  same with Round Lake Tommy.  Mr. Loring was on the side  of the white people.  Q   Mr. Loring was the Indian Agent, is that right?  A  Yes, he was the Indian Agent. He tried to deceive us by  promising us other land so we could move off our lands,  and I didn't.  I resisted him.  Q   How did you resist him?  A  When Mr. Loring had promised me land in Hagwilget in  exchange for my father's land, that didn't happen.  I  did not get the land in Hagwilget so I moved back to my  father's land.  I got the land through pre-emption.  Q   This is the land we are talking about that is near  Perow?  A  Yes, that's the area we are talking about. There is  even a creek named after me called Johnny Creek.  Q   Johnny David Creek?  THE INTERPRETER:  JUSt Johnny Creek. He said it's noted on  the map.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Your land was right near that creek?  A  My son Moses had also a house built in one of the  corners of my father's land.  THE INTERPRETER:  He wants since his son has died now, he  wants his grandson peter to have some say about the  land.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   You said you got this land by pre-emption, did you ever  get any papers saying that you were the owner of any  land?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  He is saying that he did receive some papers  that stated that it was Crown, couldn't remember what  word they used, Crown something.  That is when he got  the land, and which was the land he sold later on.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Was this land formed into part of the Reserve to your 5-17  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  knowledge?  THE INTERPRETER:  Not to his knowledge.  He paid taxes the  same way white person.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  DO you have any papers relating to this land?  A  No.  THE INTERPRETER:  He doesn't.  He said that we'll look for it  some other time.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said I paid into school tax. I've got  the papers and we'll look for it some time.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Did you sell this land at some time later or was it  taken away from you?  A  I sold it.  Q  To who?  A  I sold it, they did not take it away.  Q  Who did you sell it to?  A  Tom Hall is the person I sold it to. They were --he  was the son of a farmer who farmed next to us.  Q  What was his father's name?  A  Bill Hall. Englishman.  Q  DO you recall how much money you received for this land?  A  I can't remember, maybe it's $500 or less.  Q  JUSt before we complete,  I would like to show you some  photographs.   Do you have your looking glass so you can  see them more easily?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  The first picture I would like to show you appears to be  a photograph of yourself in front of the house we are  now in; I wonder if you could recognize that picture?  A  It'S a picture of the poles outside.  THE INTERPRETER: He says the taller one is mine and the  shorter one is Kela.  MR. GRANT: And the taller one is the one on the right hand  side, for the record.  If that could be marked as  Exhibit 12 I believe is the next exhibit number.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    EXHIBIT NO. 12 - Small coloured photograph of totem  poles. 5-18  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  I would like to show you another photograph which  appears to be a photograph of a totem pole with the  numbers on the top 1948; do you recognize that picture?  A  Yes,  it is my totem pole.  Yes, something written on  top.  Q  Is that the same pole that is presently outside your  house and was in the earlier photograph, Exhibit 12?  A  Yes, that is the same pole.  Q  Is that the same pole that you went outside during this  Commission and described the crests on the pole?  A  Yes, the same pole.  MR. GRANT:  For the record,  I believe that was on the first  day of this commission, which was September 20th, 1985.  Could that picture of Johnny David's pole, negative  number PN3233 of the B.C. provincial Museum be marked as  Exhibit 13:    EXHIBIT NO. 13 - Large black and white photograph  of Johnny David's totem pole, negative  number PN3233 of the B.C. Provincial  Museum.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  I would like to show you another photograph, negative  number PN3918 of the B.C. provincial Museum; can yoU  look at that photograph and do you recognize where that  is?  THE INTERPRETER:   He recognizes it as a picture of the canyon  in Hagwilget.  MR. GRANT:  Okay, can yoU recognize --go ahead.  THE INTERPRETER:   He is describing this picture.  You see the  cliff here, that is where they get the name from,  Hagwilget.   Then he said beyond this cliff is the rock  that went clear across the river and it was called tse  hangel, means split rock.  MR. GRANT:  Can that photograph be marked as Exhibit 14 then  I'll ask some more questions on it.    EXHIBIT NO. 14 - Large black and white photograph  of Hagwilget Canyon, negative number  PN3918 of the B.C. Provincial  Museum.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Now, the rock that you describe, was it in the bottom --  going across the river in the bottom of the canyon? 5-19  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A  This rock I described was in the river bed.  It was  quite steep and I don't know how the salmon got over the  rocks, and I don' t know how long the rock was there.  Q   DO you recognize any of those buildings in this  photograph, Exhibit 14?  A   In this photograph the first building belonged to Old  Muldoe.  Q   For the record, you're pointing to a building that seems  to be in the centre of the picture and in the mid  ground?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said the second one belonged to his  father, Smogelgem.  MR. GRANT: That is the one that looks like, then, on the base  of the cliff, the left of that first building.  THE INTERPRETER:  That was called the Owl House. He can't  decipher the other two, each had a name.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  THE INTERPRETER:   This pole     MR. GRANT: The one furthest to the left of the picture?  THE INTERPRETER:   that was the pole that belonged to Old  Bill.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Was that Bill Nye?  A  Yes, Bill Nye.  Q  And the building you have referred to as belonging to  Old Muldoe, is that building here?  A  Yes, this is the building at the base of the cliff; that  was Old Muldoe's.  Q  Does he know -- there appear to be two other poles  there, does he know if there were other poles there and,  if so, whose they were?  THE INTERPRETER:  The first, this one he identified as Bill  Nye's pole.  The last pole in the photograph    MR. GRANT: The one furthest to the right?  THE INTERPRETER:  The one that is furthest to the right,  belonged to their house.    OFF THE RECORD  IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:   That was the  one with  the figure  of a man on  top. That pole was sold.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Is that the pole that belongs to Kela?  A  Kela's pole was called Kaiget. That was the first pole  that was erected in the canyon.  There is a figure of a 5-20  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  man on top and that is what you see outside.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   I would like to show you another photograph of a totem  pole, do you recognize that pole?  THE INTERPRETER:   He's saying that -- he thinks that this is  the pole and he thinks that this is Kela's pole and he  thinks these are the ones standing outside.  BY MR.  GRANT]  Q   I would like you to take another look at that picture.  JUSt take a look at it closely, on that pole there seems  to be a building behind it, see if you can recognize the  location of it?  A   (In English)  I can't see very good.  Q  This photograph has it labelled at the bottom that it is  a totem pole at Hagwilget, on the face of the picture;  now, having told you that, does that help you to  identify that pole and where it was?  Where that pole  was?  THE INTERPRETER:  He is asking me if it is a photograph of  the pole in the canyon.  Then he is recognizing that  it's a smoke house beside the pole.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   DO you recognize whose pole that would belong to?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said he can't see too clear.  Said the  figures on the totem pole, I can't see too clearly.  MR .  GRANT:  That's fine.  Q   I showed you one other photograph before we commenced  our Examination of a number of people. I would like you  to look at it and see if you can recognize any of the  people in that picture?  A   In this photograph I recognize  this man as my uncle.  Chief David.  MR.  GRANT:   He is indicating  the man  in the -- second  from the  left holding a broom in his hand.  THE WITNESS: The others probably know who they are but I'm  having trouble seeing the photograph clearly.  MR.  GRANT:   Mark that Exhibit  15 please.   That is  the National  Museum of Canada negative number 59520.    EXHIBIT NO. 15 - Black and white photograph,  National Museum of Canada negative  number 59520. 5-21  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR. GRANT: For the record,  I provided photocopies of these  pictures I am showing you. On the back of Exhibit 15  there is some other handwriting, which I am showing to  Mr. Milne, and I have not referred that handwriting to  the Witness and the Witness did not look at it when he  examined the photograph.  Possibly we could go off the record for a moment?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT: Off the record we have had a discussion and the  Witness has now gone for two and a half hours or  slightly over that and is getting quite tired.  By  agreement between counsel we have agreed to adjourn this  matter over until tomorrow until 10.00 a.m.  So this  commission is adjourned now.    PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 1.20 p.m.  I hereby certify the foreging to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  Veronica Harper (Ms.)  Official Court Reporter  VH/lre-Feb.  8/86       B.C.S.R.A. #263  Transcript  continues on page 5- 22 which follows 5-22  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  VICTOR JIM,  Wet'suwet'en  Interpreter,  Previously  Sworn  JOHN DAVID  Witness called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs,  Previously Sworn,  testifies,  as follows:    UPON COMMENCING AT 10.00 a.m., 30 JANUARY,  1986     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT: This is a continuation of the Commission that was  adjourned yesterday afternoon.  Before proceeding further I have spoken with the  court Reporter, and also with Ms. Mills, who is doing  the word spelling, and with Mr. Milne, counsel for the  Defendant in this case.  It appears that there are some errors in volume III  of the commission evidence which are some  misunderstandings and may not be able to be corrected.  First of all at page 30 of volume III, at line 41,  the answer is given as Gitdumskanees.  That answer  should read Gitdumden.  At page 34 of the same volume, lines 7, 8,  13 and  14, all refer to Gitdumskanees  and again that was a  misunderstanding as it should be Gitdumden --  G-I-T-D-U-M-D-E-N.  Finally, Mr. Milne has been courteous enough to  look at his notes with respect to page 37, the answer at  line 37 reads:  "Yes, I did and the crests are on my blanket  and my j ug."  The "jug" should be "drum" and that is consistent  with Ms. Mill's notes, Mr. Milne's notes and with my own  notes.  I would like to make those corrections on the  record at this time so that confusion will be  economized.  I understand Mr. Milne doesn't mind the  corrections being put in in this manner.  MR. MILNE:  No objection to that.  MR. GRANT:  There are also to be errata in that Volume and the  Reporter has indicated she will be putting a  supplemental sheet in that Volume or the next Volume  with respect to the errata. 5-23  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT:  Go back on the record.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT  (contd.)  Q  DO you know who Chief Louie is?  THE INTERPRETER:  He wants to know where he lives.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  I understand this is a person that lives at the eastern  end of your territory, near Ootsa Lake or Cheslatta?  A  Chief Louie is from Cheslatta.  Q  DO you remember --do you know this man?  A  Yes,  I know him.  I've spoken to him.  Q  Has he died?  A  Yes, he died. His brothers have died also.  Q  Who were his brothers?  A  His brother's name was Bagee.  He became chief after  Chief Louie died.  Q  When you say he became chief do you mean he succeeded  Chief Louie in the Wet' suwet' en tradition?  Or in the  Indian tradition?  A  Yes, it was through the Wet' suwet' en way, he was already  in line for this name.  Q  DO you know where Chief Louie was buried?  A  Right at Cheslatta.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  Is that where his brother was buried?  A Bagee was not buried right at Cheslatta. When people  were moved off Cheslatta he was given a piece of land  near Francis Lake. He is buried on the land that was  given to him.  -- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  When you refer to Francis Lake, it is commonly referred  to on the maps as Francois Lake?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  Did Chief Louie die before the people were moved on  Cheslatta? 5-24  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A  Before they were moved off.  Q   But his brother died after they were forced off?  A  His brother had died after the people were moved from  Cheslatta and he is buried on the land that was given to  him.  Q   Is his brother buried near Grassy Plains?  A  Bagee was buried on land that was given to him by the  government after they were moved off Cheslatta.  Q   What clan was Chief Louie in?  A  He is in your clan --  THE INTERPRETER:  -- pointing at me, and he said Tsayu Clan.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Where was Chief Louie's territory?  A  He was a chief, his land was around Cheslatta since he  was a chief there.  His territory ran along Ootsa Lake  up near Alf Michell's traditional grounds, and his  boundary was Sebola Mountain.  Q  Did you say Alex Michell or Alf Michell?  A  Alex Michell.  MR. MILNE: And the name of the mountain again:  MR. GRANT:  Sebola  -- S-E-B-0-L-A.  Q  Is any of that territory flooded now by the dam that is  near Cheslatta?  A  The territory around Cheslatta was all flooded. The  village was flooded, the church, the graveyard.  When it  was flooded bodies were floating downstream.  This is  how the white people have fooled around with us.  Q  GO ahead?  A  Roy Morris was there.  He managed to remove some of the  bodies.  The ones that he didn't move, he saw the bones  floating downstream.  Roy Morris was a witness to this.  MR. GRANT:  Has he finished that answer?  Q  When you refer to Roy Morris, his Indian name is Woos?  A  Yes.  He is still alive. Roy Morris was there when it  was being flooded and he saw the remains of people who  had died many years ago come up with the water.  Floating downstream.  Q  This all happened when the dam was put in by Alcan and  the government?  A  Yes, there was a time when Alcan was putting in a dam  and I think opened the gates at Skin Dyee territory, and  that is where the water came rushing through.  Q  DO you know if this flooding included the flooding of  Chief Louie's territory or part of that territory?  A  His whole village disappeared.  Q  You referred  to Sebola Mountain earlier, does part of 5-25  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  that mountain belong to Chief Louie's territory?  A  Half Sebola Mountain belonged to Chief Louie, and the  other half of the mountain belonged to Francis Lake  Johnny. All the relatives of Chief Louie have died and I  don't know who will be getting the -- whose territory  now.  Q   You don't know who the successor to Chief Louie is, is  that right?  THE INTERPRETER: He wants US to find out who will be getting  Chief Louie's territory.  MR .  GRANT:  Okay.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   Does Caspit hold any part of Sebola Mountain as part of  his territory?  A   Caspit did not have territory near Chief Louie.  His was  more the Morice Lake area.  Q   Would it be closer to this direction than Chief  Louie's?  That is, further west than Chief Louie's  territory?  A  Yes, it's on the west side of Morice Lake.  Q   Is Caspit a Wet'suwet'en Chief?  A  Yes, he lives here.  Q   Was Chief Louie a Wet'suwet'en Chief?  A  He was not a Wet' suwet' en Chief, he was from Cheslatta.  Q   Is there an Indian name for the carrier people that  lived to the east of the Wet' suwet' en?  A  Nutseni.  Nutseni means people that live east of us.  MR .  GRANT:  Okay.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said the Cheslatta people and people from  Anaheim Lake are just about the same people. And they  speak the same language.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Was Chief Louie Nutseni?  A  Yes.  Q   Was he the Nutseni chief whose territory bordered on the  Wet'suwet'en territory?  A  Yes, he was and on several occasions he just about had a  few problems but, since they knew each other, they would  talk it over and there were no problems.  Q   Is Sebola Mountain on the boundary between the  Wet'suwet'en people and the Nutseni people?  A   The Sebola Mountain half is Wet'suwet'en territory, and  half is Nutseni territory.  I can't see the map too  clearly and I can't speak to that.  Q   I am not going to ask to show you this map. It'S hard 5-26  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  even for us to see this map.  What chief's territory was on the Wet'suwet'en  side  of Sebola Mountain?  In other words, who owned part of  Sebola Mountain from the Wet'suwet'en side?  A  Francis Lake Tommy held part of the mountain and Alex  Michell held the other half.  I don't know who has taken  Chief Louie's name and the trap line, I don't know who  has got it.  Q  Do you know what Alex Michell' s Indian name is? Chief  name is?  A  Anabel's, that's old Indian name. Alex Michell's uncle  held that name before.  Q  What clan is Alex Michell in?  A  Gilserhyu.  Q  DO you know what his Indian name means?  A  I can't remember.  I can't remember what the name means.  I think one of Sylvester Williams kids may have the  name, I am not too sure.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  Alex Michell has died, has he?  A  Yes, he died a long time.  Q  Now, the other person you said who held part of Sebola  Mountain is Francois Lake Jimmy or Johnny or Tommy?  You  said Francois Lake Tommy also held part of Sebola  Mountain, was he also Wet'suwet'en?  A  Francis Lake Johnny.  He was Nutseni.  Q  Do you know -- I'm sorry, were you continuing your  answer?  DO yoU know what clan he was in and what his Indian  name was?  A  It's a Gitksan name and refer to having your fingers  severed.  Q  Did he give the name?  THE INTERPRETER:   Gojiget.  MR. GRANT: G-0-J-I-G-E-T.  Just for the record,  I'm giving  those spellings as Ms. Mills is writing but I have  indicated to her before today started she may want to  go back and check them.  MR. MILNE:  I appreciate your spelling because it is very  difficult for me to phoneticize these.  MR GRANT:  She may want to review them and in the transcript  they may appear slightly different.  Q  Earlier this morning you referred to Skin Dyee's 5-27  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  territory as being flooded when the dam was made; was  Skin Dyee a Wet'suwet'en  chief?  A  He was Wet'suwet'en who lived in Hegwilget.  Q   What clan was he in?  A   Gilserhyu. He was the brother of Samooh,  the name Moses  had held, Gilserhyu.  Q   You're referring to your son Moses?  A  Yes.  Q   Do you know what Skin Dyee' s chief or Wet' suwet' en name  was?  A   Gibukun. That refers to a person carrying a stick.  THE INTERPRETER: He sayS that is a Gitksan word.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   DO you know how he got that name, Gibukun?  A  No, I don't.  It was way before, I just know that he is  called Gibukun.  Q  Was that a name that he would have received in the  feast?  A  Yes, he did and he got that name when he was a young  child.  Q  Was it a name that the Wet' suwet' en  used and recognized  and has been passed on from Skin Dyee?  A   Yes, this name is passed on, and Skin Dyee had died in  my presence.  Q   JUSt to clarify that, were you present at his actual  death or do you remember when he died?  A  My wife and I had gone to Skin Lake, Skin Dyee was  really sick, he was going out of his mind. Before this  he had showed me his territory and gave me the Indian  names for the mountain.  There is one mountain name that  was Nayistendie,  that is where he did his trapping.  When we came back he showed me all the lakes and their  names. Afterwards I was still staying with him and he  began to lose his mind.  The police came and took him to  Vancouver.  Q   Did he die in Vancouver?  A  Before he got sick I talked to his sons. I told Robert  Skin that if they were going to take Skin Dyee to  Vancouver to write a paper that if anything should  happen to Skin Dyee while he is in Vancouver that they  are to send his body by train back to Burns Lake, and  that is what they did.  When he died the hospital phoned  my wife.  By phone.  After the phone call my wife and I  went to Burns Lake to meet the body that was coming by  train. From the train we took the body back to the  Reserve, and on the box there was a note on there which 5-28  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  said to not open the casket.  I wondered why the note  was on the casket stating not to open it, so I gOt the  screwdriver and opened it and had a look at the body,  and there was nothing wrong with it. I checked the body  thoroughly and couldn't find anything wrong with it, and  he was buried afterwards.   I paid for the expenses  because he was a half brother of mine.  Q  When you opened the casket was the body clothed for  burial or did you or your wife have to get clothes for  Skin Dyee's burial?  A  He was just wearing shirt so clothes were bought for  him.  He was dressed and buried.  Q  Who purchased those clothes?  A  Matthew Sam had bought the clothes and the expenses were  repaid at the feast.  This is how it's been done for  years.  Q  Was Skin Dyee's sister Samooh?  A  Yes, his sister David Dennis' mother.  Q  Was David Dennis' mother or David Dennis' wife?  A  His mother.  Q  It was old Dennis' wife, I'm sorry?  A  Old Dennis' wife.  Q  I believe you have already indicated to us that David  Dennis was your wife's mother?  Your wife's father?  A  My wife's brother.  Q  David Dennis was your wife's brother?  A  Yes, my wife's brother.  Q  So to summarize, Skin Dyee was your wife's uncle on her  mother's side?  A  Yes.  Q  This is why your wife was responsible for his burial?  A  Yes.  That is how the business is done.  Q  In relation to his funeral and in relation to him you  were Andamanuk to him?  A  Yes, I was Andamanuk.  Q  What house was Skin Dyee in?  A  He was Ya'tsalkas, means Dark House.  Q  So he was in Ya'tsalkas or the Dark House, is that  right?  A  Yes.  Q  I think, I'm just not sure,  I want to check the earlier  part of that answer. YOU said Gilserhyu, was that the  clan he was in?  A  Yes.  Q  Was he a leading chief in the Ya'tsalkas?  A  Knedebeas, or the main chief of the Dark House.  Q  And Samooh and Gibukun stay close to Knedebeas? 5-29  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A  Yes.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   How old were you approximately when Skin Dyee showed you  his territory?  A   I was getting pretty old, Moses was pretty big boy then.  I forget the age.  Q   Now, to get to his territory did you cross Francois  Lake?  A  Yes.  Q   Did you go by wagon or by horse or on foot?  A  We used the wagon. The area in his territory is called  Skin Lake.  It'S near Francois Lake.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: There is a mountain near Skin Lake called  Tso'o tay, and you go across the lake and that is where  his trap line was. His line was four or five miles from  Skin Lake.  The area and half mountain belonged to him.  Now, Francis Skin is looking after the territory.  He is  Skin Dyee's grandson.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   DO you know what the white people call this mountain?  I  believe you referred to it as Tso' o tay?  A   I don't know the English name for Tso' 0 tay.  I don't  know what they call it.  Q   Aside from Skin Lake are there any other -- first of  all, is there a Wet' suwet' en name for Skin Lake?  A  The Wet' suwet' en name for Skin Lake is called Netanlii.  Q   Are there any other lakes that you know of in Skin  Dyee's or Gibukun's territory?  A   This is the only name of a lake that I know.  Q   DO you know why people called Gibukun Skin Dyee?  HOW  did he get that name Skin Dyee?  THE INTERPRETER:  HOW did he get Skin Dyee?  MR.  GRANT:  Yes.  THE WITNESS: Skin Dyee got the name from the trapping that he  had done.  Whenever he trapped he got a lot of skins.  AS a result of that he got the name Skin Dyee.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Do you recall whether there is a lake or mountain that  marks the boundary of Skin Dyee's territory? 5-30  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A  There is one lake that is used as boundary and that lake  is called Who n duk Bun.  Q  DO you know what white people call that lake or do they  have a name for it?  A  I jUSt know the Wet' suwet' en name.  Q  On the other side of the lake is it Nutseni territory?  A  Yes, belongs to Wet'suwet'en, there is another lake.  In  Wet'suwet'en  it's called Ma'dzee Bun, which translated  into English would mean Caribou Lake.  MR. GRANT:  JUSt to clarify with the Interpreter, are you  translating Ma'dzee Bun into English to mean caribou  Lake?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Go ahead.  THE WITNESS:  Then that is the, where....    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  That is the boundary of where the land of  Nutseni begins.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  IS that also on the boundary of Skin Dyee' s territory?  A  Yes.  Q  Do you know which Nutseni Chief has territory right  across from these two lakes you have just described,  Ma' dzee Bun and Who n duk Bun?  A  I don't know who holds the territory near these two  lakes.  Q  Do you know if the white people have a different name  for Ma'dzee Bun?  THE INTERPRETER: He thinks it's -- it might be called Caribou  Lake.  THE WITNESS: That's as far as I know about the territory.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  When you say that you mean you don't know the names on  the other side of that boundary,  is that what you mean?  A  All I know belong to Big Louie and now I don't know who  is holding it.  Q  This is   A  Francis Skin knows the territory as well as the names.  Q  Your son Moses held the name of Samooh, did Skin Dyee  talk to your wife about who would get that name, Samooh?  A  Skin Dyee had spoken to someone about who he wanted the  name to go to.  Q  What did he tell -- I'm sorry -- I said your wife, I 5-31  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Should refer to his sister, Agnes.  I may have missed  you.  Did Skin Dyee talk to his sister, Agnes, about who  would get the name Samooh?  A  He had spoken to Agnes and my wife and he had told them  that Samooh should go to Moses David.  That is what  happened and now Moses is dead.  Q  Who held samooh before Moses?  Ask him if he would like to take a break?  A  Before Moses my wife held that name.  Q   And before your wife did David Dennis hold that name?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  David did not have Samooh, he had the name  Satsan.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Before your wife did her mother Agnes have that name?  A  Yes.  MR. GRANT: JUSt to clarify the record, Agnes was Skin Dyee's  sister and David Dennis' mother, and was also Johnny  David's wife's mother.  I've already referred to that,  that is how he described it,  is that right?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  MR. MILNE: JUSt let me summarize that, I jUSt want to make  sure I have it right.  Agnes is Skin Dyee' s sister,  David Dennis' mother?  MR.  GRANT  MR.  MILNE  MR.  GRANT  Yes.  And Johnny David's wife's mother?  That's correct.  Q   Johnny David's wife was Marion,  is that right?  A  Yes.  Q   And she was David Dennis'  sister?  A  Yes, David's sister.  Q   Marion David. Johnny's mother and father were Agnes  Dennis and Old Dennis,  is that right?  A   Yes, that's right.  MR. GRANT: We had to clarify because some of the people were  confused and I didn't want people to misunderstand your  answers.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said the way I write it down here is the  correct way.  MR. GRANT: What he just said to you?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes. 5-32  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  So I understand Moses held the name Samooh before his  mother Marion held the name Samooh, and before her, her  mother Agnes held the name Samooh; do you know or were  you told who held the name Samooh before Agnes:    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  He thinks the name of the person who held  Samooh before Agnes may have been....    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  His name may have been Philip but the headstone  is in Hagwilget, and he was the first Samooh.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  Is he the first Samooh -- was he the first Samooh or the  first Samooh that Johnny can remember?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  As far as I can remember there is only -- I can  only go back to as far as Philip.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  DO you remember a feast at which Agnes received the name  Samooh?  A  No,  I was too young. Old Dennis had told me about his  wife getting the name.  Q  At the present time is it correct  that no one is holding  the name Samooh?  A  The name hasn't been passed on yet.  In July his  headstone will be here and that  is when the person will  step forward to take the name.  Q  That's this coming July he is referring to:  A  Yes.  I had spoken to his son, Peter David about this.  Q  Who is the head chief -- is there another chief in the  same house as Samooh and, if so, who is that:     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Yes, there are other chiefs who are the head of  the house Samooh is from.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Does this include Knedebeas? 5-33  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A  Yes, Knedebeas is also from that house.  Q   Is Goohlaht head chief of that house?  A  Yes, same way.  Q   Is Goohlaht the head chief of the house or of the whole  clan?  A  Goohlaht is head of the clan.  Q  Between the time when a chief such as Samooh dies and  the headstone feast, would the head chief of the house  such as Knedebeas or the head chief of the clan such as  Goohlaht take care of the territory until a new Samooh  was appointed?  A  Yes, that is how it is done, and the chiefs in the house  they would decide amongst themselves as to who gets the  name.  Usually look for a person who is well respected  in the community and they would decide who gets the  name.  Q   Who is taking care of Samooh's territory now:  Which of  these chiefs:  A   Samooh's territory is now being looked after by Francis  Skin from Ootsa Lake.  Q   Is he taking the role of caretaker:  A   Robert Skin and his son are the grandsons of Skin Dyee  and, as a result, they are looking after the land doing  their trapping.  Q   Earlier this morning or just a few moments ago we were  talking about Skin Dyee' s territory,  is that the same as  Samooh's territory or is it different?  A   Yes, it is the territory of Samooh.  Q   Does Samooh also have other territories?  A  No.  Q   Do you know or have you heard of a person called canyOn  Creek Tommy?  A   Thomas?  Q   Canyon Creek Thomas.  Yes.  A  Her knows, is sitting here right now, Mabel Sam.  Q   Did White people try to throw Canyon Creek Thomas off  some land?  A   Yes, they did try to kick him off his land.  Q   DO you recall who that was?  What the names of the white  people:  A   The people who lived next to canyOn Creek Thomas is Jack  Carr and his brother Bill Carr, and he was good friends  with him and they did not talk about his land. I don't  remember....  MR. GRANT:  JUSt gO off the record for a moment.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION 5-34  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR. GRANT: GO back on the record.  THE WITNESS:  I heard that Jean Baptiste was being troubled  by the white people but not Canyon Creek Thomas, and  that's all I remember.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   His land, do you know a place known as - - called Bulkley  valley Road that existed a long long time ago?  A  Yes. Wah tie ee kie, means foot path. I was raised  around there and I walked it many times.  Q   Was Canyon Creek Thomas' land near a place known as  canyon Creek on that Bulkley Valley Road or footpath?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Yes, he had land near Canyon creek and the  Wet' suwet' en name is Ken' oo ee Kwah. All the creeks  have names all the way down.  MR. GRANT: We need to go off the record for a moment to  change the video tape.     SHORT RECESS  MR. GRANT: . Go back on the record.  Q  You referred earlier that Jean Baptiste was troubled by  the white people; was he Wet'suwet'en?  A  Yes.  Q can you tell us what you know about what happened to  Jean Baptiste and his land:  A  Mr. Baptiste had about 160 to 300 acres and he had set  up a farm, had cows and horses, and the Indian Agent  asked him to move off the land but he defied that order  and stayed on the land.  Q  What happened when he defied that order?  A  He kept resisting the government and they asked him to  remove himself from the land.  He refused and the  government got their own lawyers to try and remove him  from his land. The Indian  Agent had also asked him to  leave the land he was on.  He refused, he stay on  there.  Kept growing hay for his cattle.  The people from the government told him that he was  to leave the land, he refused again, so they told him to  go somewhere and he dressed and got ready.  He had two  race horses and he got the fastest one and saddled it  up, and he had two revolvers and he stuck them on his  sides. 5-35  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q   There were people who were sent to pick him up,  were all lined up, and he came by on his horse and as he  neared them he jumped off his horse, pulled his revolver  out and stuck it to the head of one of the people and  asked him if he wanted them both.  The people who were sent to pick him up talked to  him, told him to get off the land.  The Indian Agent  told him to get off the land but he refused.  When he  refused they finally gave in and made that land a  Reserve.  Q   Who finally gave in?  A   It was the Indian Agent who made the land into the  Reserve.  Q   DO you know where that land is?  A  Yes, I know. It's on the road on the way to Babine at  the bottom of the hill.  Q   Is it on the road known as Burnt cabin Road:  A  Yes, that's how the white people fooled around with us.  Q   Is that land that is now known as the Jean Baptiste  Indian Reserve?  A  Yes.  Q   Go ahead if you have something to say:  A  The way the people have threatened Jean Baptiste, that  is the same way other white people have threatened our  Indian people. The same is done regarding our trap  lines, the white people have been taking them.  (In English) That's all.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Was Jean Baptiste related to Old Sam, Mabel Sam's  father:  A  No.     OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Was Jean Baptiste told that the army was going to come  to kill him if he didn't move off his land:  MR. MILNE:  It's going to be very hard for this Witness to say  what he was told if he wasn't there, so I'm going to  make the same objection I have been making throughout.  MR. GRANT:  Go ahead, task him the question, he got ready for  THE WITNESS:  He was told that, that is why  he got ready for  them and they didn't bother him.  They had all caught  all their horses and they were all lined up, and that  is when they came to them. 5-36  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Was Jean Baptiste in the Gitdumden clan?  A  Yes, he was the brother of Tyee Lake David and Peter  Pierre, the three of them were brothers.  Q   The third name was peter Pierre:  A  Yes.  Q   What house was he in?  A  He came from Kyas ya, Grizzly House.  Q  Did he have a chief's name?  A  Tyee Lake David had the name Woos, and Tyee Lake was  named after him. And the lake is named after him.  Q   After Tyee Lake David?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes. He was big chief.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Did Jean Baptiste have a chief's name and, if so, do you  know it:  If he can remember the name?  THE INTERPRETER:  He can't remember.  THE WITNESS:  Skallithx.  MR. GRANT: JUSt before moving into another area I just want  for the record to say, before the coffee break we had  this morning the Witness went over to speak with Mabel  Crich with respect to a name, and I have to come back to  that, I believe it was the name of a site. It was with  respect to my question relating to Canyon Creek Thomas.  Counsel for the Defendant didn't object and I  didn't make any point of it because the Witness was  clearly trying to help, appears to have been trying to  help refresh his memory.  Due to his elderly age I  believe both counsel thought it would have been  inappropriate to object and try to have the Witness  remain.  MR. MILNE: For the record, I would hate to see that as a  regular occurrence  but it would seem the Witness does  recall the names shortly after the question is asked, in  any event, but I do agree with what Mr. Grant has said.  MR.  GRANT:  Thank you.  Q  Did the Wet' suwet' en  people use arrows in the old days?  A  Yes they did.  Q   Can you describe what they used to make the shaft of the  arrow and the point of the arrow?  A  The shaft that was used for the arrow is called tsayx.  That is what was told to me. If somebody else tells you  they might say another thing.  Q   When you say - - I am just clarifying  with the  Interpreter --is tsayx,  is that the name for the shaft  or is that the material that was used for the shaft? 5-37  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A   It is some kind of root that is used to wrap up the  shaft.  Q   Do you know the name of the plant that that root comes  from?  A   It doesn't grow on the ground,  it's the veins in your  arm, it was usually taken from the caribou.  Q   IS that made out of -- a rope that is made out of like  the tendons of the caribou that is used to tie up the  arrow?  A   Yes, it is from the caribou and the way they kept it  together was the sap from the trees which was used to  tie the arrow head to the shaft.  Q  Now, did the people use a kind of rock for the head of  the arrow?  A   There is some kind of rock,  I don't know the name for  it, I was just told about it and it is a rock similar to  material in the glass.  Q   It is similar to glass:  A   It's not glass but it is white coloured rock.  Q  Did the Wet'suwet'en people have special places where  they would get this rock in their territory:  A   The rock is very difficult to find and that is the  material that used for the arrow head.  Q   Did your father show you a place where you could get  this rock?  A   Yes, my father did show me.  I don't want to give the  location because white people would destroy the rocks if  they knew where it was.  Q   Did your father and others take this rock out by using  other rocks to chip it away:  A   They may have used an instrument similar to a knife and  the rock was up quite high and it was very difficult to  get at, and that's all I know.  Q   Did many Wet' suwet' en  people know where this rock was,  in your lifetime?  A  Not too many.  Q   As far as you know is this rock still there:  A  Yes, the rock is still available.  I was told where you  could find it and that's all I know.  Q   Did your son Moses know where the rock was?  A  Yes, he knew where the place was, I told him and that's  all I'm going to tell you. One time David Dennis and  myself had gone to the location.  We parked close by to  where the rocks would be found and it started to thunder  and we just left.  MR. GRANT: Go off the record for a moment please. 5-38  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant    OFF THE RECORD (Visitor to see Johnny David)  MR. GRANT: Would you read the last answer please:  THE REPORTER:  Question:  "Did your son Moses know where the  rock was?"  Answer:  "Yes, he knew where the place was, I  told him and that's all I'm going to tell  you. One time David Dennis and myself had  gone to the location.  We parked close by to  where the rocks would be found and it started  to thunder and we just left."  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Johnny,  I understand you don't want to describe exactly  where the location is and I'm going to respect your wish  on that, but can you tell us whether or not these rocks  are located within Wet'suwet'en territory?  my father's territory,  was Smogelgem's territory?  A  Yes,  Q  That  A  Yes.  Q  Were  A  Yes,  would  I was  they located somewhere near Perow?  near Perow.  If people found out where it was they  destroy the site. I did not see the rocks myself,  told where it was and people went there and tried  to locate the rock, they tried to locate the rock and  told me I am telling the truth.  Q   JUSt a moment please.  IS there a Wet'suwet'en name for  Lake Kathlyn, which is a lake near Smithers:  A  The Wet' suwet' en for Lake Kathlyn is Tas Dleese, which  means boiling rock and it is also referred to as Chicken  Lake by white people.  Q   Is there a history of that lake?  A  Yes.  Q   Why it's called boiled rocks:  A   I know the story of why it's called Tas Dleese.  Q   can you tell us that story?  A   In the early days there were two young girls who took  off their clothing and began playing in the water.  The  two young girls had long hair and they held their hair  up by a bone which was -- which came from the coast.  They were quite a ways out in the lake, facing the  mountain, a big wave came by and a serpent-like creature  came up and swallowed the young girls.  The serpent had  a den near the railroad tracks, where the serpent was  located.  There is a person who lived near the lake who heard  the cries of the two young girls when they were 5-39  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Swallowed by the serpent.  About a year later during the winter the person  that lived near the lake had made about a thousand  moccasins and he invited all the people from the  surrounding area, and during the summer all the people  had come to the lake, and they walked right around the  lake and began building fires with rocks, with hot  rocks.  The people had surrounded the lake and began  heating up the rocks and someone suggested that they  throw the rocks into the lake.  So they did this and in  about half an hour the lake began to boil. The lake was  boiling similar to the way a kettle boils on a stove.  The big serpent came floating to the surface.  Was all  boiled by the hot rocks.  When the serpent came floating  to the surface the people retrieved it and cut open the  serpent.  In the stomach of the serpent was found the  two bones that the young girls had in their hair.  That  is why the lake is called Tas Dleese.  NOW, if you look carefully around the lake you can  see rocks that are black in colour, they were rocks that  were used to boil the water and that is where the lake  got its name, Tas Dleese.  That is the story of the  lake.  Q  Was the person who brought the warriors together, was he  a Wet'suwet'en chief?  A  He was a Wet' suwet' en chief. He was the predecessor of  Gyologet.  Q  Were the girls who the serpent swallowed his daughters?  A  I think they were relatives of Gyologet since they were  playing there.  That is all I can tell you.  Q  Did this happen long before the white man came?  THE INTERPRETER:  Thinks it is about 200 years before.  BY MR. GRANT:  A  Were the bones the girls wore in their har abalone  shell?  Off the record for a moment.   OFF THE RECORD  (Johnny left the room)  MR. GRANT:  GO back on the record.  Before you answer the question, the Witness went  and got something to indicate what it was, to help him  with the answer. Could you translate the answer now:  THE INTERPRETER:  When I asked him the question he said he  knew what kind of rock or bone it was and he went into  the bedroom and came out with this.  Inside the circular 5-40  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  is abalone and he is saying that this is expensive.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Is that the kind of bone or rock that they had in their  hair?  A  Yes.  I don't know what material that is made of this.  MR. GRANT:  I believe counsel can look at it but it appears to  me this is abalone and I believe Defence counsel can  examine it as well.  MR. MILNE:  It looks like abalones that I have seen.  Definitely a mother of pearl kind of substance.  Not to  say that the bones were of that, I don't know.  MR. GRANT:  No.  MR. MILNE:  JUSt looking at the pendant it appears as though  that is what the pendant is.  MR. GRANT:  He is showing the pendant, we can agree with  that.  THE INTERPRETER:  He is asking me what white people call this:  MR. GRANT:  YOU can say the white people call it abalone.  THE INTERPRETER:  It was the same material that he has been  describing.  It was tied to the back of their hair.  That was all they found.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Is that material, that abalone that you have indicated,  is that one of the materials that the Wet' suwet' en  traded in the old days with the people from the coast?  A  Yes, they did for that and it was very difficult to get  and expensive.  Q  You described in this history that you gave about Lake  Kathlyn that the man, Gyologet, made a thousand pairs of  moccasins; why did he make those moccasins and what did  he do with them:  A  He made those moccasins  to give to the people who were  going to help with the boiling of the water, and the  moccasins called baxkay.  Q  Is that the name for moccasins all the time Of when they  are made for this purpose?  A  The moccasins are called baxkay because it is similar to  the army boots that the present day army uses, and it  was called baxkay because we were all considered  brothers and that's what baxkay means, brothers.  Q  Were those specially made for situations like this  history you have described or when the Wet' suwet' en  went  to war with another group?  A  These moccasins were made specifically for this purpose  and also when our people were going to war, it was done 5-41  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  again.  This was done when Kweese went to war, and it is  a long story. YOU see in today's army when they are  going to go off to war they put on new boots and this  was basically used for the same purpose.  Q  I would just like to ask you a few more questions just  to clarify some of the answers you gave earlier in the  commission.  Volume I of this Commission, September 20th, at  page two you were asked about the pole which belonged to  Ginehklaiya.  You indicated that it was the pole across  the street from your house.  I am going to show you a photograph and ask you if  this was the pole you were referring to:  MR. MILNE:  Is that photograph one I have?  MR. GRANT:   (Inaudible)    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  He can't see very well and he can't  recognize it.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  In volume II of the transcript, at page eight, which is  September 26,  1985, you were describing a situation  about Samaxsam and you said -- I'll read the question  and the answer - - you said that the name was given  because Old Tiljoe's brother was killed, and I asked you  who killed him, and your answer was:  "Half way between Kitwancool and the Nass  River there was a grave marker of Old  Samaxsam, who was the size of this table, and  on this big log was a big stone and that was  knocked over. When the two people had come to  this grave marker, they were playing around on  it and it tipped over and Samaxsam avenged  this by killing one of the Wet' suwet' en and it  was Old Tiljoe's brother that knocked this  rock over, but somebody  else."  That is how the transcript reads, and I want to ask  you, was your answer it was not Old Tiljoe's brother  that knocked the rock over but somebody else:  A   It wasn't Old Tiljoe who had tipped the rock over, it  was somebody else.  Q   It was not Old Tiljoe?  A  No.  Q   I am just asking you to be clear on the record.  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes. 5-42  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  At page 17 of that same volume, Volume II, you were  asked if Dennis, Old Dennis' chief's name was  Dikyannulat, at line 30. You said you could not  remember his name; do you remember Old Dennis' name now:  THE INTERPRETER:  He remembers his name is Dikyannulat, and  the white people give him the name Dennis Clark.  MR. GRANT:  Clark.  Go off the record for a moment.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT:  Go back on the record.  Q  You raised earlier that these moccasins or baxkay were  used by Kweese when Kweese went to war.  I would like to  ask you that history but if you are too tired to tell it  now,  I'll leave that question until tomorrow morning.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said it's too long and he doesn't want to  talk about it.  MR. GRANT:  I told you I would stop at one o'clock and it is  one o'clock so I'm going to stop. Tomorrow morning  we'll finish and Mr. Milne will be questioning you  tomorrow.  We'll adjourn now until tomorrow morning.  THE INTERPRETER:  He wants to know what time:  MR. GRANT:  Go off the record.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 1.00 p.m.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  Veronica Harper (Ms)  Official court Reporter  VH/lre-Feb.  9/86       B.C.S.R.A. #263  Transcript continues on page 5-43 which follows 5-43  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  VICTOR JIM,  Wet'suwet'en Interpreter,  previously Sworn  JOHN DAVID  Witness called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs, previously Sworn,  testifies, as follows:  UPON COMMENCING AT 10.15 a.m.,  31 JANUARY,  1986  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT:  Go on the record.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT  (contd)  Q  Yesterday you spoke with us and explained what happened  with Jean Baptiste when he fought for his land; did this  happen in your lifetime:  A  Yes, I was aware.  Q   Would it have been before or after you were married or  can you estimate how old you were when it happened:  A   It was before I got married.  I think I was about 20  years old.  Q   I am showing you a photograph of a pole, do you  recognize that pole?  It is the same picture you looked  at earlier this morning.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  He is having difficulty seeing it again and  he thinks it is the pole,  the one that is in front of  the fire hall.  BY  Q  THE  MR.  MR. GRANT:  On this pole in this picture there is writing saying  "Agnes Dennis, died May 8th, 1946"; do you remember a  pole that was related -- that was erected in relation to  the death of Agnes Dennis:  INTERPRETER:  After explaining the printing on the pole he  is recognizing that as the pole that is now in front of  David Dennis' house.  GRANT:  The Witness and yourself pointed down the road  from Johnny David's house in Moricetown here in the  direction of the church or an easterly direction 5-44  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  generally towards Smithers; is that where David Dennis'  house is?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes  it is.  MR. GRANT:  I would ask to have that picture marked as the  next Exhibit.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:  He stated that the figure on top of the  Pole,  in our language in the figure is called Mansilx.  He can't remember the English name for the figure.  MR. GRANT:  Can you, as Interpreter, do you know what Mansilx  means when translated to English:  THE INTERPRETER:  No,  I don't.  MR. GRANT:  I'll have that photo marked as Exhibit 16.  It is  number PN10233,  from the Defendant's Provincial Museum.    EXHIBIT NO. 16 - Photograph of totem pole, B.C.  Provincial Museum negative number  PN10233.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  DO you recall when this pole was erected in front of - -  I believe you said it was in front of David Dennis'  house:  A  I remember when the pole was raised but I can't remember  the exact date and say when the pole was erected.  Q  Was it in the same year as Agnes Dennis died or was it  some time after her death:  A  It was after, one year after she had died when the pole  was erected.  She died in my hands. She was brought  back to the log house that used to be next to this  house, and I had spent money since I was Andamanuk.  Q  Was this the same Agnes Dennis who was the wife of Old  Dennis and who held the name Samooh?  A  Yes.  Q  On top of the photograph is a bird,  is that --or  appears to be a bird and what you have described as  Mansilx,  is that still on the pole?  A  The bird may have fallen from the wind,  I haven't seen  it lately, and the figure of the bird in our language is  called Mansilx.  Q  I understand it is hard for you to see the photograph on  Exhibit 16 but can you describe from your memory the  crests that are on Samooh's pole?   OFF THE RECORD 5-45  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  THE INTERPRETER:  He was working his way up the pole.  MR. GRANT:  From the bottom?  THE INTERPRETER:  From the bottom.  The bottom figure he said  was the figure of a female.  The second figure above the  female he said was a porcupine, and two figures were  otters, and then he couldn't see the other two.  MR. GRANT:  The two figures you indicated are the otters,  you're pointing to the two middle figures on the pole  that seems to have a dark bar with white or light  markings between the two    THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Is that right?  And the figures he can't recognize are the figures  above that which appear to be fairly large?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  The figures just below the figure of the bird on  the top of the pole, is that correct:  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  JUSt for the record, when he was talking about the  figure of the bird in Exhibit 16, there is what appears  to be a very small thing at the top of the pole separate  from the pole,  is that what he was referring to?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  GRANT:  other day you described to us that you returned to  area where you had been farming and later you sold  land, how big was that land that you farmed and  later sold?  English) One hundred and sixty acres,  this land within Smogelgem's territory?  Smogelgem's territory much larger than this farm?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said the land after it was considered  Crown land is when I sold it.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  My question was, was Smogelgem's territory much larger  than this farm?  A  Yes, much larger.  Q  Yesterday     A  Smogelgem's territory was quite large.  The land I sold  was just a small part.  (In English) One hundred and sixty acres.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said Smogelgem's territory was miles and  miles around.  BY  MR.  Q  The  an c  that  then  A  (In  Q  Was  A  Yes.  Q  Was 5-46  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR . GRANT:  Q   Yesterday you told us Francis Lake Johnny's name and I  wondered if that name was Gwatsikyet?  Just to be clear  for  the     A   Yes.  Q      I am referring to the Jenness article, which I have  provided a copy of his paper on anthropology, Number 25,  dated  1943 on the Carrier Indians, to Mr. Milne.  I am referring particularly to page 509 under the  general  title 'The Thin House". Jenness translates that  name,  Gwatsikyet, as he that cuts off the head with a  knife;   is that what you understand the name to be in  Wet'suwet'en or does it mean something else?  A   Yes, that is the correct  interpretation for the name.  When this white  man came around, he took all the  pictures and talked about the chiefs, and that is what is  written  in books.  Q   Yes, but you described it, as the name meaning cutting  off the  fingers; is the name more precisely cutting off  the head?   Or cutting off the fingers with a knife?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Yesterday when I was indicating a movement like  this, I was trying to indicate that his head was cut off  with a saw. Across this way.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   And the  movement that you're indicating,  both the Witness  and the  Interpreter,  is a cutting motion across the hand?  THE  INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Or across the wrist?  THE  INTERPRETER:    Yes.  He wants  a doll and he will indicate how  He just  indicated that Gojiget in here, and his head was  cut off  with a cross-cut saw, one people on each end, and  when his head was cut off, all the blood was in this area  and his head had fallen this way.  MR .  GRANT:  Okay.  THE INTERPRETER:   And that is what the name Gojiget is.  MR. GRANT:  Joh nny just performed that motion with the use of  a doll or dummy,  for the record, that he had stretched  across the  table indicating,  for the record, cutting  across in the neck portion,  cutting the head off.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   Did you ever see the performance that you just described 5-47  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  When you were young?  Or the cutting of Gwatsikyet' s  head?  A  No,  it was before my time.  It was Balna who saw one of  the people cut off the head.  Q  Was this before your time, was it your understanding  that this was re-enacted at a feast, the cutting off of  Gwatsikyet's head:  A  This happened a long time ago and Balna was one of the  people who was involved and that was way before my time.  Q  Do you know why - - I'm sorry?  A  They at the hall, when there is a feast. . . .  THE INTERPRETER:  He was pointing to Tonia Mills --  THE WITNESS:  ....she's witnessed how the name is passed on,  the people get up to speak and the people get the names  are identified.  That is how it has been done in the  past and still being done today.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  YOU refer to Balna as the person who cut off the head,  is that a Wet' suwet' en name and, if so, who is the  person that presently holds that name, do you know?  A  Balna was Wet'suwet'en and he hold the name Madeek.  Q  Madeek?  A  That is the name that George Naziel now holds.  Q  DO you know why Gwatsikyet' s head was cut off?  A  That was the style.  Gojiget is also Gitksan name and in  our language it means cutting off the head.  Q  Does Gwatsikyet -- has he performed the description of  his name at a feast that you know of?  Let me re-phrase it, for the record, the  Interpreter is trying to determine how to phrase it  rather than the Witness. Let me re-phrase the question  for you.  Jenness refers to the fact that this cutting off of  Gwatsikyet's head was enacted at feasts before the white  men came; did anyone tell you whether that was so:  A  I remember this white man coming and talking to our  people,  I remember seeing him and when our name is going  to be passed on people get up to speak, the people who  are there to witness, and this is how the name's passed  on.  MR. GRANT:  We'll go off the record to change the tape.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT:  For the record, at this break while the tapes  were being changed it appeared that the spelling by 5-48  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Jenness on page 509 of Gwatsikyet is different than the  spelling yesterday.  However Jenness'  spelling is  probably not how the name is pronounced, Gwatsikyet  would be pronounced.  For the record, where I have referred to the  Jenness spelling I have asked the Reporter to endeavour  to use that spelling and where Mr. David has answered or  I have referred to it as a name he describes it, the  spelling will be slightly different to reflect the  actual pronounciation of the name.  Q  Can you tell us any more about the cutting off of the  head and as to why it was done?  We understand it  happened a long time ago, the history of that cutting of  the head, and whether or not it was performed as naxmox  at the feasts?  A  When Gojiget head was not really cut off. When they  performed -- when they first performed it his head was  here and the cutting motion was done in front on top of  the head.  So his head was not actually cut off. It was  acted out as if the head was being cut off.  Q  You mean on top of the hair of the head as he was lying  down?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  THE WITNESS:   Yes.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Was the original Gwatsikyet given that name because he  cut off the head of the lover of his wife or the woman  he was with:  A  When the cutting of the head was acted out Gojiget got  up and danced.  Q  Was there a song to go with that dance?  A  When the name was acted out he would get up and dance,  and what they were trying to say was the head turning  around twice.  It's very difficult to explain it.  There  is a figure of a head has the thread running from it and  that is what is used to turn the head.  That is how it  happened and that's all I'm going to say.  Q  That is just what I was going to ask you,  is there  anything else that you wish to tell us about  Gwatsikyet's  performance or that history?  A  That's all.  Q  You referred  to the fact that the person -- one of the  persons cutting off the head was Balna, whose  Wet'suwet'en  name was Madeek; was that person the father  of a man known as Old Bill Nye Of was that person Old  Bill Nye? 5-49  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A  Yes, Balna was the same person in the English language  who has the name Bill Nye.  Q  Earlier on in the Commission you showed us the pole of  Kela, which is the large pole with the dog crest on it;  did the father of Old Bill Nye have the original Kela  dish made for him:  A  Yes, there was, the dish was made for the father of Bill  Nye, and the dog dish is now held by Mabel Sam who has  the name Kela.  Who's sitting over here.  Q  Did you ever see the earlier dog dish that was made for  Kela, the father of Old Bill Nye?  A  No,  I did not see it. It was a long time ago. There is  a song that goes with the dog dish.  Q  That is Kela's song, is that right?  A  Yes.  The song of the dog dish is still alive today.  Q  I would like to refer to another event, do you recall a  feast of Charles -- I'll try to pronounce the name --  Teytalwus - - at which you were involved in the  performance of naxnox?  A  Yes, I remember,  I was alive and I was a young man.  Q  My understanding is that you were down at the river and  then you were taken up to be involved in the  performance; do you remember that and,  if so, can you  describe what was done for that feast in which you were  involved?  A  I was outside and someone, one man came and got me.  And  my mother had given a suitcase to some people, and  there's an area near the Hagwilget Canyon where people  gathered and that is where they took me. Chief Charles  was there with his uniform --  THE INTERPRETER:   -- which you say regalia --  THE WITNESS:  -- and he also had my suitcase.  He opened it  and my regalia was in it, and they dressed me up with my  regalia.  Before we went into the feast house I was told that  someone was being picked on and I was given a stick and  I was asked to tell the people to quit picking on this  person.  Chief Charles was holding my wrist and I was  struggling.  When I got to the door I poked the door with this  stick and the doors flew open.  The people who were  going to fight Chief Charles were standing there, when  they seen me they did nothing.  I was acting as the door  for Chief Charles and all the participants danced,  performed right around the hall. That is how it is  done.  Since I was the son of the High Chief Smogelgem I 5-50  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Was in front of Chief Charles, those people who were  going to fight him never touched me. That was how it  ended.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Where did this happen?  A   It was at the Dark House.  The House of Kneoebeas in  Hagwilget.  Q   Were you just a boy when this happened?  THE INTERPRETER:  He said "I was a small man at this time and  I'm still small today".  THE WITNESS:  I was Strong and I knew the business.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   What was Chief Charles' Wet'suwet'en or chief's name?  A  He was called Gitdumskaneese.   He was an old timer.  Q   You described that both you and Chief Charles or  Gitdumskaneese were wearing regalia, do you remember  what your regalia was: Was it an animal of some sort or  what was that regalia?  A   I wore a hide of a mountain goat, still had its head and  horns and hooves and that is what I used when I  performed.  Q   DO you remember what was the regalia of Gitdumskaneese  or Chief Charles?  A   Gitdumskaneese used a button blanket which was his own.  Q   Was anyone dressed as grizzly at this feast and in this  performance?  A  NO.  Q  Were the people that you stopped dressed in certain  regalia and was there any dressed as animals or other  creatures?  A  They were not dressed in their regalia, they came as if  they were going to go to war with Chief Charles and I  got in front of them.  Q   Was anyone given a Wet'suwet'en chief's name at this  feast?  A  No, the name is not given out at a performance like  that.  Q   How long did that performance go on for?  A   It lasted for about half an hour and when it was over  everybody left the house.  Q   I would like to just ask you about how Wet' suwet' en  people settled murders or killings I should say.  Is  there Wet' suwet' en laws for settlement as to when a  person has been killed by somebody else?  A  There is a way this is settled when someone is murdered, 5-51  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  For example, when Mooseskin Johnny killed someone two of  his relatives were given to people who were killed.  That  is how it was done. This happened way before my time and  this is what was told to me, and that's all.  Q   When this happened in this case or generally is there a  feast at which the relatives are given over to the  victim's family?  A  Yes, there is a feast.  Q   Is eagle down used as part of the settlement at that  feast?  A  Yes, eagle down is used.  Eagle down is our law.  Q   When you say eagle down is our law, what do you mean?  A   The eagle down is our law.  It is blown in the direction  of the people and it is similar to white man's way now  where they sign their name, eagle down is our law.  Q  After the eagle down is thrown at the feast is that the  sign that there will be no more revenge or killings  because of the dispute?  A  Yes, once the eagle down is blown the revenge or murder  is stopped and once that is done you are not allowed to  break that law.  The same is done with the passing of a  mountain or territory.  Q  You referred to when white people sign papers, so the  analogy you're making is to a peace treaty between, for  example, after a war?  A   Yes, they quit.  Q   Now, in the case you referred to of Mooseskin Johnny was  his nephew or his nieces given as compensation?  A  Mooseskin Johnny's sister's kids were given as  compensation.  Q   Who was the person to whom they were given and was there  a marriage?  A   For a man a woman is given as compensation and for a  female a man is given as compensation.  Q  Maybe he has answered that, you don't have to ask him if  he has answered it. When you say for a man do you mean  when a man has been killed or a person who is harmed?  THE INTERPRETER:  When a man is being compensated.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   DO you know the name of the person who was killed in  that incident?  His Wet'suwet'en name?  A  He was Gilserhyu.  I can't remember.  Q   Was a woman given to Satsan as compensation in this  incident?  A   It was Satsan' s brother who received the girl for  compensation. 5-52  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, would you read that answer back:  THE REPORTER:  Answer:  "It was Satsan's brother who  received the girl for compensation."  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   DO you recall his name?  A   Kuminyay.  Q   Was this settlement of Moosekin Johnny's, was this  before the white man came?  A   It was before the coming of the white man and Father  Morice was travelling around when this happened.  Q   Did Mr. Loring, the Indian Agent, and Father Morice try  to stop this practice of settlement?  A  Yes, they tried to stop this practice.  That is all I'm  going to tell.  Q   When you speak here giving evidence can you speak for  the other chiefs in the House of HagWilnegh?  A   Yes, I'm speaking for other chiefs from Hagwilnegh's  House.  I speak for them because I know the histories of  our people.  Q   During part of this commission you have spoken and in  between the Commission to Mable Sam, whose chief's name  is Kela; can you in this Commission in your evidence  speak for Kela when she authorizes you to?  A  Yes. It is the Old Kela's words that I am speaking  right now and younger people are learning from me and  they will continue to use Kela's words. Also I use my  father's, Smogelgem's words.  I do not try to deceive  the people,  I try to tell the truth.  Q   I have three more questions to ask you. Did you or any  member of your house or your tribe agree at any time to  give the Kilwoneetzen  territory to the white man's  government?  A  We did not agree to give the land, it was the government  who took the land.  Q   Did you or any member of your tribe consent to the  government taking your land?  MR. MILNE:  Before he answers I, of course, have to object  because you are asking for an answer that can only be  hearsay.  He can't possibly know what all members of his  tribe would say, and that applies equally to the land of  the Kilwoneetzen.  MR. GRANT:  I will modify the question in a minor way.  Q   TO your knowledge did you or any other Kilwoneetzen  person consent to the government taking your land?  A  No.  In the eyes of the white man we are poor.  They  just come and take the land, they put everything in 5-53  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  their pockets and they're gone.  There was some mining  that has taken place near the Hudson  Bay Mountain.  The Indian people were the first to find the minerals  but they were told that it was no good and some time  later white people stake claims and they went mining.  The white man consider the Indians poor, they took  everything including their lands and put it in their  pockets.  Q  TO your knowledge did your father or you as the  caretaker or Yingxunlee or anybody in Smogelgem's house  consent to giving up Smogelgem's territory to the white  man's government?  A  No, we did not, they took it themselves.  Q  If the Wet'suwet'en chiefs or anyone of those chiefs  ever say to give up Wet'suwet'en territory, would this  have to have been announced at the feast?  A  Yes, it would have to be done at a feast.  The Indians  pass on lands to other Indians through the feast and  they don't give it to white people.  Q  Was there ever an announcement of the transfer of any  Wet'suwet'en lands at a feast that you either attended  or were told of?  Was there ever -- just read that  question back to me, I may have left something out.  THE REPORTER:  Question:  "Was there ever an announcement of  the transfer of any Wet' suwet' en lands at a  feast that you either attended or were told  of?  Was there ever --"  MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry.  Q  Was there ever any announcement of the transfer of any  Wet'suwet'en territory to the white man's government Of  to white men at a feast that you either attended or at a  feast you were told of?  A  No.  They don' t do that.  Q  You have given us -- I'm sorry -- is there something  else he wants to say?  A  No,  land is not given to white people.  For our trap  line, the police come and jail our people.  That is how  they lost some of their trap lines.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  You have given much evidence of the histories, the songs  and the territories of the Wet'suwet'en chiefs;  according to the Wet'suwet'en tradition are these  histories,  the descriptions of these territories and  crests and songs the property of the Wet'suwet'en 5-54  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Chiefs?  A  Yes,  it is theirs.  It is not the property of the white  mans.  It is our own property.  Q  Did you give these histories,  songs and descriptions of  the crests and the territories solely for the purpose of  the Wet'suwet'en chiefs' court case against the  Government of British Columbia?  A  Yes, that is why I told.  What I have been telling you,  will never die,  it will go on for a long time, it will  never be erased.  You will be using it --  THE INTERPRETER:   -- pointing to you, and I will be using it,  and he was pointing to myself.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q  By telling these histories and the songs and the crests  do you still wish to reserve the right that they are the  property of the Wet'suwet'en chiefs and other than the  court case are not to be published without the consent  of the Wet'suwet'en chiefs?  A  Yes.  If people are going to be using any of the  material other than the court case they would have to  get the permission of the Wet'suwet'en chiefs.  MR. GRANT: I would like to go off the record for a moment.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT: Go back on the record.  I jUSt want to record for  the record and I took a brief break and now I've asked  Johnny  to sign Kela's song.     THE WITNESS SINGS THE SONG AND PLAYS DRUM  THE INTERPRETER:  He was explaining the song. There was a dog  dish, about four to six feet long, and on the face had  the head of a dog, at the end the tail, and that is when  this song was made.  MR. GRANT: He mentioned there were people on the side?  THE INTERPRETER:  There was an old man standing on the side  around  the dish and he was the one that made the song.  MR. GRANT: And he referred to the dog,  that was the drum, is  that right?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes. This is -- a picture similar to this  was on the dog dish.  THE WITNESS:  Whoever takes over my name along with the name  will get the blanket that is behind me and also the  drum.   He will keep it with him. 5-55  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   Can he explain at what ceremonies the song is sung?  Why  is that song sung and at what ceremonies?  A  When there is a big party, whenever there is dancing to  be done, that is when it is sung.  Q   Is there anything else you would like to tell us about  the song or about the description of the ceremony you  just gave?  A  Another time the song is sung is when the berries are  given to High Chiefs.  They lift up the berries and that  is when the song is sung.  The song is sung by Kela as  well as myself.  When this is done the other chiefs sing  their own songs --  THE INTERPRETER:  -- pointing to Tonia --  THE WITNESS: -- she's witnessed that a few times.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   When this is done, when the berries are there,  is there  a dog dish filled with the berries?  A  No, they're put in small bowls.  (In English) That's all.  MR. GRANT: Those are all my questions.  I jUSt for the record want to put in as Exhibit No  17 a photograph of the drum which was being used, which  I have shown to my learned friend,  so it is on the  record.  And as Exhibit No. 18, photograph of the blanket  which was worn by Johnny David outside the pole early on  the Commission to which he referred in the commission  and which is presently at the Commission and visible on  the video tape as hanging behind Johnny David.  MR. MILNE: I think you had better put those to the Witness.  MR. GRANT: I don't know if the Witness can see them.  Q   Is that a picture of the same drum you were using?  A   I recognize it as my drum.  Q   And is this a picture of your blanket to which you  referred?  A  That is the blanket behind me.  MR. GRANT: PUt those,  the drum is Exhibit 17 and the  blanket will be 18. There is handwriting on the back to  which I haven't referred the Witness and today I am not  making reference for these purposes now.  Once those have been put in as Exhibits I have  completed the Direct Examination of Mr. David and I  understand the lawyer for the Province wishes to adjourn  to commence his Cross-Examination on Monday, the 24th of  February or such other time as counsel may agree? 5-56  DAVID, J.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR. MILNE: That is correct.    EXHIBIT NO. 17 - Photograph of the drum used by  the Witness.    EXHIBIT NO. 18 - Photograph of the blanket previously  worn by the Witness, presently hanging  on the wall.  MR. GRANT: YOU could maybe explain to Johnny what's  happening.  GO off the record.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11.55 a.m.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  Veronica Harper (Ms)  Official Court Reporter  VH/lre-Feb.  10/86       B.C.S.R.A.  #263

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