Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Martha Brown Vol. 4] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 26, 1986

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 INDEX OF EXHIBITS REFERENCED TO IN COMMISSION EVIDENCE  Martha Brown - Exhibit 68  Volume 4 - Exhibit 68D  2. Photocopy of seven handwritten pages entitled    68 E  "Field Notes LCO Research", October, 1985  3A. Photocopy of map from the National Archives      68 F  of Canada numbered 12215, December 15, 1904  3B. Photocopy of map from the National Archives      68 G  of Canada numbered 12213, December 15, 1904  3C. Photocopy of map from the National Archives      68 H  of Canada numbered 12214, December 15, 1904  4. Obituary column from the Interior News, 68 I  September 18, 1985 regarding the death of  Matilda Morrison  5. Undated coloured map of Gitksan - Wet'suwet'en   68 J  traditional territories 65  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  FRANCES SAMPSON,  Interpreter, previously  Sworn  MARTHA BROWN  Witness called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs, Previously Sworn,  testifies, as follows:  UPON COMMENCING  AT 1.00  p.m. ,  . 22 JANUARY,  1986  UPON COMMENCING  AT 1.00  p.m. ,  . 22 JANUARY,  1986     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  CROSS-EXAMINATION  BY MR.  GOLDIE (CONTINUED)  Q    Mrs. Brown, this is a continuation of the  Cross-Examination that we were having in October of last  year, do you recall that?  A    (Nodding affirmatively.)  Q    At page 59 of the transcript I asked Mrs. Brown if her  house was a party to the land claim - - do you have a  copy of the transcript, Mr. Grant?  MR. GRANT: I'm sorry but I only have the wrong ones.     OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Now, I'm going to repeat the question because it wasn't  answered at that time? is the House of Xhliimlaxha  making a claim against the Federal Government for a land  claim?  If counsel wishes to answer that, I have no  objection.  THE INTERPRETER:  Is the House of Xhliimlaxha making a claim?  MR. GOLDIE:  Against the Federal Government?  THE INTERPRETER:  Federal Government?  For the land claim?  MR. GOLDIE:  For a land claim.  THE INTERPRETER:   I don' t know how to word that.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   To the knowledge of Mrs. Brown is the House of  Xhliimlaxha making any claim against the Federal  Government?  Do you understand what I mean by that?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Just to be clear, you're not necessarily referring  to a court claim? 66  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  MR. GOLDIE: I am talking about the Gitksan Carrier Tribal  Council comprehensive land claim which has been filed  with the Federal Government.  THE INTERPRETER:  Filing a claim, you said?  MR. GOLDIE:  Making.  THE INTERPRETER:   I'm stuck on that.  MR. GRANT:  The filing, are you stuck with?  THE INTERPRETER:  Let's see, is Xhliimlaxha filing a claim?  MR. GOLDIE:  Let me try it this way.  THE INTERPRETER  :  Okay.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Does Mrs. Brown know the Tribal Council has made a claim  against the Federal Government for land?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  It's been a while since we wanted it to happen.  Because whenever the Native people go out into the woods  or land the white people does not allow them to do  anything.  MR. GOLDIE:  That is her answer?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GRANT: If I could? You indicated at the beginning, and I  wanted to give you an opportunity to ask the Witness, do  you wish to clarify that point?  MR. GOLDIE:  I would like to know and, as I said,  I would be  happy to have a response by counsel, whether the House  of Xhliimlaxha is included in the Tribal council  comprehensive land claim against the Federal Government?  MR. GRANT:  For the record,  it is my understanding that in  November 1977 the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'tan Tribal Council,  then called the Gitksan Carrier Tribal Council,  submitted a claim to the Minister of Indian Affairs for  the Government of Canada.  That claim was submitted on  behalf of the hereditary Gitksan and Wet'suwet'tan  chiefs including Xhliimlaxha and the people in the House  of Xhliimlaxha.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Was Mrs. Brown Xhliimlaxha at the time the claim was  filed in 1977?  A   I forget.  Q   In any event    A   I forget how long since Frank died.  Q   In any event Mrs. Brown is now the hereditary chief and  I would ask, as I did in October, that the documents 67  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  - constituting that claim be produced:  Is that possible now?  MR. GRANT: I believe that I produced to you, delivered in  earlier correspondence, as a result of your request both  the land claim map which was given to the Minister and  the declaration.  Those were the documents that were  filed with respect to that claim.  MR. GOLDIE: Does that constitute the totality of the  documents?  MR. GRANT: Those are my instructions, yes.  MR. GOLDIE: We'll leave that.  MR. GRANT: You have received those documents, that I referred  to?  MR. GOLDIE: Just the declaration.  MR.  PLANT: And the map.  MR. GOLDIE: We have both.  MR.  GRANT:  Yes.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Mrs. Brown, are you able to tell us what it is that your  house is seeking from the Federal Government in the  claim that was filed in 1977?  THE INTERPRETER:  Are you able to claim?  MR. GOLDIE: Are you able to tell me what Xhliimlaxha wants  from the Federal Government.  THE INTERPRETER:  I was asking if she understood and she said  yes.  THE WITNESS: All we wanted is for the Native people to be  free, to be able to do as they've always done long ago.  THE INTERPRETER:  That is the answer she's giving.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Is it the same things that Xhliimlaxha wants in this  lawsuit?  THE INTERPRETER:  I need a word for lawsuit.  MR. GOLDIE: What we are doing now?  MR. GRANT: Court action.  MR. GOLDIE: Court action, that is a phrase that is  understood.  THE WITNESS: One thing I don't like seeing, you can see it in  the TV, one Native person as soon as they do something  they're grabbed and thrown into jail.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Ask Mrs. Brown if in the court action the House of  Xhliimlaxha wants anything more than what it is  asking the Federal Government in the land claim? 68  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  THE INTERPRETER: I'm just not with it. Could you repeat  that question?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Just as a note, I have given a notepad for the  Interpreter if you want to write down parts of the  answer or part of the question, that will assist you.  THE INTERPRETER:   It will help me to remember.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q    The question is this:  is Xhliimlaxha asking for  anything more in the court action than it is in the land  claim which was filed in 1977?  A    I would. . . .    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  I'll hear what the other chiefs are saying and  then I'll  let you know what I want because they're  afraid.   I hear Mary Johnson and Albert Tait, they're  afraid to speak up. They don't want to talk to you.  THE INTERPRETER:   Is that answer good for you?  MR. GOLDIE:   It will do for the present.  THE INTERPRETER:   Okay.  MR. GOLDIE:   Thank you.  Q    Now, when I was last here we talked about the territory  of Xhliimlaxha  and I ask now if there is a map which  shows the territory of Xhliimlaxha?  A    I forgot to pick up the paper from Jimmy.  Jimmy Angus.  Frank looked after the paper.  Harold Eades took the  paper and gave it to Jimmy Angus and that's where it's  at now.  Q    Could we have it for tomorrow?  A    Maybe Ian can go and get it.  He knows where Jimmy  lives.  Q    Does Jimmy live on the reserve at Glen Vowell?  A    Kispiox.  Q    Kispiox.   All right. Who is Ian?  THE INTERPRETER:  He is living nearby.  MR. GOLDIE:  We'll make that request of him later.  MR. GRANT:  Just for the record,  I'll leave it to you to  request of me what you want out of this,  I'll note them.  MR. GOLDIE: I'll do it formally now: could we have for  tomorrow the paper that Mrs. Brown states is in the  possession of Jimmy Angus?  MR. GRANT:  I'll investigate that.  I'm not certain exactly  what the paper is she is referring to.  I will  investigate and if we can locate the paper we will.  If  there is any objection, I'll tell you tomorrow, as to 69  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  its production after I see it.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  MR. GRANT:  But if there is no objection I will produce it.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Mrs. Brown, can you tell us how many fishing stations  Xhliimlaxha had on the Kispiox River?  A   I think I can.  Q   Was it about eight miles above the Village of Kispiox?  MR. GRANT:  Was what?  MR. GOLDIE:  The fishing stations of Xhliimlaxha on the  Kispiox River?  MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry,  I think you just asked how many.  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I'm sorry.  MR. GRANT:  And then "what was it".  HR. GOLDIE:  Quite right.  Thank you.  Q   How many fishing stations did Xhliimlaxha have on the  Kispiox River?  A   A lot. Starting at one, Wilnastatx.   Another one at  Miinhlgwogoot.   Across to Ts'agaskiihlgenim'madim.   On  to Wiluuskeexwt.  And on to Xsa'anxiiya.  On to  Xsitsihl'niit'in and   on to Miinxsa. On to  Xsaxws'anseegit.   On to Xsimiinhlhalskiit, and on to  Gisim'niit'ahlhak.  That's the end. From then on Dogoges, another  chief, owns the rest.  any of these on Marty Allen's Ranch?  fishing ground called Wilsada'uhlts'ap is right at  corner of Marty Allen's Ranch.  Mrs. Brown point that place out to Marvin George?  we were on the highway and you couldn't really -- I  pointed down towards them and named the places.  there has been produced to me a document dated  October 8,  1985 headed, and I quote?  "Field Notes LCO  Research";  would you ask Mrs. Brown if she has seen  those notes?  A   No.  Q   All right.  A   It is the work of Cecelia Norman, that is that claims up  the Kispiox.  MR. GRANT: For the record,  I have just provided the  Interpreter with a copy of those notes.  MR.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  MR. GRANT: Which isn't marked an Exhibit but there is a  circle on one of the names on top.  MR. GOLDIE: Thank you. Would you turn, Mrs. Sampson, to page  five of the notes that have been handed to you?  Q  Are  A  The  the  Q  Did  A  Yes,  just  Q  Now, 70  BROWN. M.  Cross_Ex.  Mr. Goldie  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  Do you see the bottom third of the page, the  heading Marty Allen's Gate?  THE  INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  And there is a heading fishing spots from here,  then there's the circle number two, do you see that?  THE  INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  To the right and below that there is a name  opposite, under the circle number two, and below that in  brackets "Trap carried away by water".  Is that the name she gave us a minute ago?  THE WITNESS :   Yes .  MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Q    What is the name of the other house whose fishing spot  or fishing stations are next to the stations of  Xhliimlaxha?  A    Dogoges, and on the other side belong to Yagosip.  Q    Those were all on the Kispiox River?  A    Yes.  Q    How many fishing stations on the Skeena River belong to  Xhliimlaxha?  A    We just have one place at Hlamganimlo'op.  Q    Is that name found on the paper that you are looking at,  Mrs. Sampson?  THE INTERPRETER:  I don't know how to spell Hlamganimlo'op,  so  I wouldn't know.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Is there a fishing station on the headwater of the Nass  River?  A    No.  MR. GRANT:  Are you referring to owned by Xhliimlaxha?  MR.  GOLDIE:   Yes.  Q    Owned by Xhliimlaxha?  A    No.  Q    Is there one to your knowledge owned by members of the  Wolf Clan? Lax Gibuu?  MR.  GRANT:  Where?  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    On the Nass River?  A    I never go up, I don't know.  There's a lot of Wolf Clan  up the Nass.  Q    Now, turning back to the fishing stations on the Kispiox  River, which are the stations of Xhliimlaxha, does  any other house have the right to fish from those  stations? 71  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  A    It's Indian law to invite their friends whenever they  have something to eat. Whenever Granny goes up to  Kispiox, he invites his friends.  They fish under the  ice and they fix a lot of steelhead.  This was the law  of our Indian people a long time ago.  We never sold  this.  Q    Without an invitation are the friends able to fish there  under Indian law?  A    No, they have to tell before they go up and if  permission is given then they go ahead.  Q    Is that what happens today?  A    They don't do that today.  If you go up the Kispiox  Valley now the white man can easily come and point a gun  to chase you away. We cannot go up that area now.  Q    Where does Xhliimlaxha fish today?  A    Any place down river here.  Q    Are there fishing stations on the river between here and  Kispiox?  A    It's just recently been spots. It's just recently, just  recently after the high water, there are spots where the  river more or less created areas, that's where we fish  today.  Q    Are those set aside for the Gitksan people?  THE  INTERPRETER:   Set aside?  MR. GRANT: Just a moment.  MR. GOLDIE:  For the use of.  MR. GRANT: By whom?  I am not sure what the -- the question  seems unclear.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Are there fishing stations where the Gitksan only may  fish?  By white man's law? THE  INTERPRETER:  Are the fishing station or?  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Are there fishing stations today where only Gitksan  people may fish according to white man's law?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER: She understood what you said and she said we  must be like white mans and go anywhere and fish. Yes.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    So the answer is, she can go anywhere and fish?  A    Yes, go anywhere and fish.  Q    Is there a fish house between here and Kispiox which is 72  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  used by the people of Glen Vowell?  A    We have our own smoke houses now, one behind our houses  and.  . . .  THE INTERPRETER:  By her daughter, Eva's, and by her own  place.  MR. GRANT:  You have handed me from the public Archives, they  appear to have handwritten notes and some sort of map,  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  The only reason I'm showing them to you is  I want to ask her if she knows the names of any of the  people who on one of those?  MR GRANT:  These are records from the public Archives?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Incidentally before I go any further I  think I should have marked as an Exhibit the document  that we were referring to a few minutes ago entitled  "Field Notes LCO Research", October 1985, and I think  that will be Exhibit 2.    EXHIBIT NO. 2 - Photocopy of seven handwritten pages  entitled "Field Notes LCO Research",  October 1985.  A    I saw the old man you mentioned.  He froze during the  cold. While everybody was at a feast in Gitanmaax when 73  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  the old man froze.  Q    How long    A    He doesn't walk around. He just sits on a board, he  doesn't walk, sits on a board and slides around. He was  like a snail.  Q    How long ago was it that he was frozen?  A    Maybe I was about ten years old when it happened.  Q    Timothy Williams?  A    I forget them all.  Q    You're doing pretty well.  Billy Williams?  A    My brother's -- my husband's brother....    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER: My father's brother. Pardon me. Good thing  she's alert here, she can correct me!  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q     What was his Indian name?  A     Gutbwinuxs.  Q     Do you recognize the name 'Wiit'in?  A     No. We have a lot of names but hardly being used and  new names are created. Today children's names are being  used as chief's names.  MR. GRANT:  You have been referring to this list, one of the  two sheets that you gave to me, and it appears to me it  would be appropriate as you're making reference to that,  you have gone through the list of these names, it should  be an exhibit?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I agree. Could I have that and we'll have  it marked.  I'm tendering as an exhibit a photocopy of a map  from the National Archives of Canada identified by the  number 0012213, and it purports to show the names of  various people at stations along the Skeena River,  upstream of the Kispiox Village.  It is to accompany a  further photocopy of a map from the National Archives of  Canada numbered 12215, which is a diagramatic sketch of  the Skeena River with its branch Kispiox River showing  the fishing camps of the Kispiox Tribe of Indians, and  bears the date stamp of December 15th,  1904. I think  those two ought to be marked as Exhibit 3A and B if that  is satisfactory?  MR. GRANT:  That is satisfactory.  I believe the one with the  smaller number should be A.  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes,  so Exhibit 3A will be 12215 and Exhibit  3B will be 12213. 74  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr.  Goldie  MR.  GRANT:  whether  appears  or are  MR.  GOLDIE:  exactly  MR.  GRANT:  MR.  GOLDIE:     EXHIBIT  Before they're marked,  I would like to clarify  or not there is a middle page that you have?  It  they're non-sequentially one-three and one-five  they part of a larger document?  I believe I have 12214 Which appears to be  as 12213 but you may wish to compare it?  They should be marked together.  All right.  We'll have as 3C, 11214.  NO. 3A - Photocopy of map from the National  Archives of Canada numbered 12215,  dated December 15th, 1904.  EXHIBIT NO. 3B  Photocopy of map from the National  Archives of Canada numbered 12213,  dated December 15th, 1904.  EXHIBIT NO. 3C  Photocopy of map from the National  Archives of Canada numbered 12214,  dated December 15th, 1904.  MR. GOLDIE  MR. GRANT  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  GOLDIE  Mrs. Sampson, are you able to read to the Witness  the names which appear on Exhibit 3A on the Kispiox  River side that I am pointing to?  For the record, I just wanted a copy of those, do  you have another copy of that?  I just have two copies.  INTERPRETER: You mean just read the names?  GOLDIE:  Yes, are you able to read to the Witness the  Indian names which are in the square that is opposite  the figures and initial 12M which I assume 12 miles,  can you read that?  On the left side of Exhibit 3A.  INTERPRETER: I can try, I can't promise.  GOLDIE:  You're going to do better than I would so why  don't you try?  What is the question with relation to?  The question is, would you read those names to  the Witness and then I'm going to ask if she  recognizes them?  INTERPRETER: No, she won't be able to know what I'm  saying. I'll try another one...  GRANT:  GRANT:  GOLDIE  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   That is the name of a chief or house?  A   It is House or Fireweed, it is the name George Williams  took and there was a log house situated by -- he built a 75  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  log house, the white people took it now.  There's a  ranch there. Just beyond Xsa axtitaksit.  THE INTERPRETER:  I was asking her if there was an English  name there now but she is not sure.  THE WITNESS:  I am not sure what they name the creek now.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Q   Now,  I am going to suggest to you that in the box  opposite 12 miles the small lettering reads Xhliimlaxha,  does it not?  THE INTERPRETER:  I was trying to read the big.  MR. GOLDIE:  Let's look at the small lettering now.  MR. GRANT:  For the record, you had asked her to read the  big ones initially.  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, but I am saying   THE INTERPRETER:  Now, what do you want me to say?  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Was there a fishing station of Xhliimlaxha on the  Kispiox River which was known by some other name than  Xhliimlaxha?  A   We got no business in an area 12 miles because it  belongs to the Frog Clan.  Q   So that is some other --it's a fishing station  belonging to some other house?  A   There is a lot of fishing stations there starting right  at the bridge.  Q   Is one of them Xhliimlaxha's?  A   No.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right,  thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, I think the last question was  somewhat misleading in that earlier you asked about the  names -- you asked about how many fishing sites were  held by Xiimlaxha on the Kispiox, a number of names  were given and none of those names were Xhliimlaxha.  I  am not certain whether you misunderstood the answer but  my understanding of the answer was those were actually  names of sites, and now you have asked if she had a  fishing site other than the name of Xhliimlaxha.  MR. GOLDIE:  Let me expand on the question.  Q    Were there any fishing sites used by Xhliimlaxha other  than the names of the fishing sites that you gave to  Marvin George?  THE INTERPRETER:  Other than the one that belongs to  Xhliimlaxha?  MR. GOLDIE:  That's right.  THE WITNESS:  Just that side belonging to Dogoges where I  used to steal trouts. A site called Naskant'imi'itxwt 76  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  is where we used to. . . .  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q    What was the name of the fishing station that she used  to steal trout at?  A    The name of the place is Naskant' imi ' itxwt.  Q    Is it Mrs. Brown's understanding now that Xhliimlaxha  cannot use any of the fishing sites that are set out in  Exhibit two?  That is that document.  THE INTERPRETER:   It is her understanding that?  MR. GOLDIE:  Xhliimlaxha.  THE INTERPRETER:   Cannot use?  MR. GOLDIE:  Cannot use any of the fishing sites.  THE INTERPRETER:   Other than her own?  MR.  GOLDIE:  No.  THE  INTERPRETER:   Oh.  MR. GOLDIE:  That are set out in this?  Can they be used  today, these fishing sites?  MR. GRANT:  My only concern is that she hasn't read Exhibit  two.  Possibly it could be clarified by the ones she was  describing at that time to Mr. George.  Your question  will entail the Interpreter or the Witness going through  that list.  MR.  GOLDIE:   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  That is all I am saying.  That is my main  objection.   If you wish them to do that.  THE WITNESS:  It's been clarified  a long time ago that we  cannot go there any more.  MR.  GOLDIE:  Thank you.  THE WITNESS:  Every time we go there now there's signs "No  Trespassing".  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    That was a long time ago?  A    We used to go up there when George and Jonah were small.  Q    When was the last time that Mrs. Brown fished on the  Kispiox River?  A    I forgotten exactly how long since we have gone up  there.  We've tried to go up there and we were chased  away by white people.  Q    This is when Mrs. Brown was a little girl?  A    I was already big, about 1952 I think was the last  time.  We were chased away at two sites.  Q    Would you describe for me please how this list which is  now Exhibit two came into being?  I believe Mrs. Brown stated that she was in a car  and pointed out to the places that she was describing?  Just ask her how she went about with Marvin George 77  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  doing this?  A   We went with Susan.  We drove along up the road and it  was quite cold. We got as far as Lake T'amgwihlaltxwt  and we came home.  Which is now Marty Allen's Lake.  Q   Mrs. Brown pointed out all of Xhliimlaxha  fishing  stations to Marvin George and Susan Marsden?  A   Yes, and I also showed them where the trails for the  trap lines.  Q   And there were no fishing sites belonging to Xhliimlaxha  beyond the point at which they turned around and came  back?  A   We haven't completed it. We didn't really complete it  all the way up. We had about four miles to go and we  come to a line belonging to Yagosip.  Q   Belonging to?  A   Yagosip.  THE INTERPRETER:  I was asking whose house, Yagosip.  THE WITNESS:  Belonging to Stephen Robinson.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Who is a Gitksan?  A   Yes.  Q   But if you had gone on another four miles that would  have completed the area in which Xhliimlaxha's fishing  stations were found?  A   Yes.  Q   Has Mrs. Brown had this list read back to her? Has  anybody read this list to her?  A   No.  Q   So at the present time she's not certain that Marvin  George or whoever wrote these down has correctly  understood what she was saying?  THE INTERPRETER:  At present?  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   At present she doesn't know whether the person that she  was talking to has got what she said correctly?   She  hasn't had this read back to her yet?  A   No.  THE INTERPRETER:  Sue's tired of sitting by the way.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right, do you want to take a little break?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Go off the record then.    SHORT RECESS  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Mrs. Brown, you are now an elder, aren't you? 78  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  THE INTERPRETER:  You are now an elder? Over 65?  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   What I mean is, she is an elder of the Gitksan people?  Is she regarded as an elder?  A   I'm the only one that's an old woman amongst the Wolf.  Q   Was she consulted or interviewed about the traditional  Indian salmon fishery last fall in preparation of a  history of Indian fisheries?  I am referring to a newspaper article in the  Interior News dated 23rd October, 1985 which was  apparently  prepared by the Tribal Council?  A   All I can remember, where we were working with Lester  over at Eva's house. They took some pictures when I was  filleting fish.  That's all I know of last fall.  Q   All right.  Thank you.  A   Don was with us at the time.  That was when Billy --  THE INTERPRETER:  -- which is a grandson of hers --  THE WITNESS:  -- were fishing along with Marvin.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q   I have shown Mr. Grant two documents, photocopies of  what appear to be a petition of Right filed in or dated  March of 1983 and signed by Mr. Grant.  I was proposing to put to the Witness a question as  to whether --to confirm for me that Xhliimlaxha did not  participate  in the Petition of Right which had for its  purposes the securing of additional or confirming of  rights under the bed of the river at certain fishing  stations?  MR. GRANT: Just one moment, before the Witness answers the  question.  MR. GOLDIE: Can I take it from you, Mr. Grant,  that you can  can confirm Xhliimlaxha's not a part of the group that  was seeking the rights under the petition of Right?  MR. GRANT: I will confirm that the House of Xhliimlaxha  is not named in the Petition of Right,  I think that is  apparent, but there is representation  by house and also  representation by band and I don't believe -- I believe  from the evidence you have already adduced that  Xhliimlaxha would be incorporated  into representation by  band.  MR. GOLDIE:  I don't know that that is the evidence.  Q   Mrs. Brown, do you have any recollection in 1983 of  seeking to have confirmed the rights to the use of the  beds of the rivers Skeena and Kispiox opposite your  fishing stations?  If you don't have any recollection 79  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  please say so?  THE INTERPRETER:  Do you have any recollection?  MR.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  THE  INTERPRETER:   1983?  MR.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  Confirming the use of the beds?  MR. GOLDIE: The land under the water of the river.  THE INTERPRETER:  The Skeena and Kispiox?  MR.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  Where the Skeena is running?  MR.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  Is that what you mean beds?  MR.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  THE WITNESS:  I don't remember.  MR. GOLDIE: All right.  Q    Mrs. Brown, at page three of the transcript of October  31 you were describing for Mr. Grant the territories  around Kispiox and you asked this question:  "Can you describe which Chiefs held  territories around the Kispiox, around the  outside boundaries of your territories in the  Kispiox?"  You answered "Just a few of them" .  Mr. Grant asked: "Isn't Anda'ap one of those Chiefs?"  And you answered:  "Guunaxst is one of the Chiefs."  I am not pronouncing that very well, would you give  Mrs. Brown the correct pronounciations of those two  names?  MR. GRANT:  What is the question?  MR. GOLDIE: I just want her to have those names.  THE INTERPRETER:  Gwininitxw is chief of....  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Is Gwininitxw chief of a house?  A   Yes, there is a house for Gwininitxw.  Q   What Clan?  A   Wolf.  Q   Has that house got its own territory?  A   They have camps for fishing and out in the land, or the  territory.  Q   Those camps and those fishing stations are for their use  alone?  A   Yes.  Q   Do they have places where they pick berries that belong  to the house alone?  A    They have their own berry patches. 80  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  Q    What is the Indian -- English name of Guunaxst?  A    No.  Q    Does not know. Is Guunaxst a chief who is alive now?  A    He died a while ago.  THE INTERPRETER:   She was just asking -- I guess I should  have said it -- I was asking if the name still exists.  MR. GOLDIE:   Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  She says I forgot who took the name.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    She doesn't know who took the name?  A    I think the name is in Hazelton or Gitanmaax.  THE INTERPRETER:  I heard that name too.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Does she know Rod Johnson?  A    No.  Where does he come from?  Q    Gitsegyukla.  A    I don't know anything about Gitsegyukla and Kitwanga.  Q    How about Hawaaw' or George Wilson?  A    Hawaaw' is Alice Wilson.  Q    Is that a house at Kispiox?  A    Yes.  Yes, they do have their own house.  Q    What Clan?  A    There is four houses in the Wolf Clan, Hawaaw'  is one of  them.  'Wii'Mugulsxw and Xhliimlaxha and Dogoges.  Q    What about Eelast?  A    I don' t know.  Q    Isn't that Jimmy    THE INTERPRETER:   Eelast.  THE WITNESS:  That is Jimmy Angus' name.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Is that not a house at Kispiox?  A    They have their own house.  Q    Is it the Clan of Lax Gibuu?  A    They're all Lax Gibuu, Wolf.  Q    What about Willy Morrison,  is he Gutgwinuxs?  THE INTERPRETER:  Gutgwinuxs.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Is that a house at Kispiox?  A    Yes.  Q    And Roy Wilson, Guuwasan?  A    They own across, a place at Gitangexhlast right where --  I forget the name -- where the store is, across from  Sportsman's Lodge. 81  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  Q   Up the Kispiox River?  A   Yes.  Q   What about -- sorry?  A   They own both sides, Guuwasan owns one side and Ma'us on  one area.  Q   They have their territory up near Sportman's Lodge?  A   Yes.  Q   What about Woosimlaxha, Victor Mowat?  A   There's two of them, Gutgwinuxs and the mountain we call  Stagait, which is known today as Caribou.  THE INTERPRETER:  It just slipped my mind what they call it  today.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    But the   A   No.  Kids used to call it One Wing Camp.  There's a  mountain right across the river here, another mountain  called Wilsamats'a.  Both Gutgwinuxs and Woosimlaxha  both hold title, both mountains.  MR. GRANT:  For the record, she was pointing across the  Skeena River from Glen Vowell where we are. I am not  certain of the direction but she was pointing generally  across the river.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q Woosimlaxha  is Fireweed?  A Yes.  Q What about Xwtsimxwts'iin?   Joshua Campbell?  A Frog Clan.  Q He's at Kispiox?  A Gitanmaax.  Q Gitanmaax?  A Yes, Gitanmaax.  Q Guuhadakxw?  Thomas Wright?  A They came from Kisgagas, abandoned village.  Q They live now in Kispiox?  A Hazelton.  THE INTERPRETER:  Or Gitanmaax.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q    But that house has its own territory?  A    They have their own territories up Kisgagas way.  Q    Those houses which I have read to you, Eelast, Jimmy  Angus Junior; Hawaaw', Charles Olson?  Or George Wilson?  MR. GRANT: What is the question?  THE WITNESS: They're all the same. Hawaaw'. 82  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Roy Wilson Senior, Willy Morrison, Victor Mowat, Joshua  Campbell, Thomas Wright, none of those appear to be in  the court action,  is that your understanding?  A    Some of the names you mentioned they're not very active  but Arthur,  I have seen him present.  Q    Arthur?  THE  INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Which one is that?  A    'Wii 'Mugulsxw is Arthur Wilson.  Q    George Wilson?  A    Yes.  Q   But the others are not active chiefs, is that Mrs.  Brown's evidence?  THE INTERPRETER:  Do you mean Joshua Campbell?  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Joshua Campbell, Jimmy Angus, Willy Morrison, Victor  Mowat?  A   They are always there. They are all active except for  Joshua because he is old and cannot walk around.  I  haven't seen him for a long time.  Q   Can she tell me why they're not in the court action?  A   I don't know, and I know that Tribal Council takes in  their words, and one of them is Gertie....    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  She's very active in speaking and it's written  down.  THE INTERPRETER:   That's all.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q   Well,  I still don't understand why they're not in  action,  if she knows?  In the court action?  MR. GRANT:  You're asking if she knows why they're not in  the court action?  MR. GOLDIe:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  That is the question.  THE.WITNESS:  I don't know, maybe they're scared.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q   I asked you, Mrs. Brown, when we were last here,  if you 83  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  knew the number of people who are members of Xhliimlaxha  and you said that David Harris' wife may know; has she  given you a list of the members of Xhliimlaxha?  A   She travels around to all the Native people and takes  the names down in each of the houses.  In a way she sees  it a chief name and when the chief dies a name goes to  another.  The name Axti Hix, seven times it has been  passed on. She's just starting ours.  She presented it  when there was a meeting at Hawilget.  Q   Well,  that was for the House of Axti Hix?  Q But has she made a list of the members of Xhliimlaxha  yet?  A   She's working on it.  Q   Do you know, Mrs. Brown, apart from the work that Mrs.  Harris is doing, who the members of your house are?  A   I know some of them and I forget some of them.  Q A man who marries a woman of the House of Xhliimlaxha  becomes a member of the House of Xhliimlaxha, is that  correct?  THE INTERPRETER:  A man who marries in the house?  MR. GOLDIE:  A woman of the House of Xhliimlaxha becomes a  member of the House of Xhliimlaxha,  is that correct?  THE WITNESS:   Yes.  MR GOLDIE:  The answer is?  THE INTERPRETER: She said yes.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   So that would mean that a white man who married a woman  from the House of Xhliimlaxha would become himself a  member of the house?  THE INTERPRETER:  White man who marries into Xhliimlaxha's  house:  MR. GOLDIE:   Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  Becomes a member?  MR. GOLDIE:  Of the house.  MR. GRANT:  The question is, who marries a woman who is a  member of Xhliimlaxha' s house?  I just want to be clear.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q   I'm referring to,  if a white man marries a woman who is  a member of the House of Xhliimlaxha he becomes a member  of that house, is that correct?  A   They will accept him if he is a good man but if not, no.  MR. GRANT:  Go off the record for a moment.   OFF THE RECORD 84  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Mrs. Brown, you were asked during Mr. Grant's  Examination if you knew Matilda Morrison and you  answered yes, do you remember that?  A    Yes.  Q    If I understood you correctly you said that she was a  member of Eelast?  A    Yes.  Q    Of the Wolf Clan?  A    Yes.  Q    It's Jimmy Angus who is the hereditary chief of Eelast?  A    Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  She likes your pronounciation!  MR. GOLDIE:  If she likes it I like it.     OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    That house has its own territory?  A    They have their own land, territory, and also fishing.  Q    Can you tell me where their land,  territory is in  relation to Xhliimlaxha's?  A    My mother's not close to them.  They're much closer to  Nuxs and Frog Clan.  Because there is a reason for that,  they grew up in Txemsen, meaning Nass area.  The old man  married in the Nass area and that is where they grew up.  Q    And is that where their territory is?  A    No,  they have their own territory somewhere up behind  Kispiox.  Q    Beyond Marty Allen's farm?  A    No,  just beyond Kispiox.  Q    Is that where their fishing station is or their hunting  territory?  A    They used to set traps where once was Miracle Valley.  Miracle Ranch.  Q    Miracle Ranch?  THE  INTERPRETER:   Yes.  THE WITNESS:  By Miracle Valley, there is a road going down  and there is a place called Gwunsabaya where the river  is, where the river swirls.  MR.  GOLDIE:   Yes.  THE WITNESS:   In that area they have a smoke house where they  work at.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q        You described the feast that followed the death of  Matilda Morrison; she died in the summer, did she not? 85  BROWN, M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  A   Yes.  Q   I am going to show Mrs. Sampson a copy of the Interior  News dated September 18th,  1985 and in the Obituaries it  reads, and I'm quoting it?  "Morrison, Matilda, born March 19, 1926 in  Kispiox, died August 29th, 1985.  Matilda was  59 years old and a housewife.  She is survived  by her spouse, Joseph Morrison; children  Robert, Janet, Gordon, Archie, Ross, Andy,  Alma, Rachel, Linda, Gayle, Brian, Hazel, as  well as sisters Lavina Bugg and Alice Wilson  both of Terrace, B.C."  I am just stopping there. Is that Matilda  Morrison?  A   It is Matilda Morrison.  Q   It's the same person?  A   Yes.  I think she has two sisters living,  I don't know  how many daughters she has.  Q   It goes on to state in this notice, and I'm reading?  "Funeral service was at 2.00 p.m. on September  23,  1985 at the Kispiox United Church."  Just stopping there.  Did Mrs. Brown attend a  funeral service at the Kispiox United Church for Matilda  Morrison?  A    No, just the feast I went to.  Q    Just the feast. Why did Mrs. Brown not attend the  funeral of Matilda Morrison at Kispiox?  A    I cannot walk, it is only when I can arrange rides that  I get to go.  Q    That is a good answer.  A    I know that's pretty good, that's why I answered.  MR. GRANT: Possibly that notice should be made an Exhibit?  MR. GOLDIE:  It is immaterial to me,  I read in the parts I  wanted.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  MR. GOLDIE:  That will be Exhibit four.    EXHIBIT NO. 4 - Obituary column from the Interior  News, September 18,  1985 regarding  the death of Matilda Morrison.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q   You told Mr. Grant that when a contribution  was made at  a feast for one house from another house that the second  house was given privileges with respect to the resources  of the first and that this extended to the berry picking  spots; do you remember telling Mr. Grant that? 86  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  A    Berry patch?  THE INTERPRETER:   Or did you name a certain region?  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q    Berry picking spot?  A    This is one of our Indian laws.  Q    Yes? A    It's  in the traditional law that the families help each  other out.  THE INTERPRETER:   And she named a spot, Hlamganimlo'op.  THE WITNESS  There's a lot of families there, they all come  and take some fish, what they need.  And they don't do  that today.  MR. GOLDIE:  Perhaps you answered the next question.  THE WITNESS:  Today you should buy it from me before I give  it to you, if I was fishing.  We do have the white man's  way now.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Xhliimlaxha made a contribution to.the funeral feast of  Matilda Morrison,  is that right?  A    That's our Indian law.  We help each other in the Wolf  Clan.  Q    As a result    A    Which is known as hawal.  Q    As a result of making that contribution does the House  of Xhliimlaxha have the right to use any of the  resources of Matilda Morrison's house?  A    I can if I'm in need.  I can ask the owner or the chief.  Q  Does Mrs.  Brown know  where were the  berry picking  spots  or territory of the House of Eelast?  A    No.  Q    So she doesn't know whether that territory is part of a  white man's farm or is still available to be used as a  berry picking spot?  A    The Native people got no place to go now.  Like our  berry patch is all farm land now and it's the same, all  berry patch belong to Ma'us.  MR.  GOLDIE:   To who?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Ma'US.  MR.  GOLDIE:   Oh yes.  Q    Mrs. Brown, you told Mr. Grant about a trap line that  you I believe had once used; what animals did you catch  on that trap line?  A    Whatever we catch, whatever there, marten, linx.  Whatever is on the territory we trap.  Q    Is this taken to the Hudson's Bay post in Hazelton and  traded? 87  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  A    We used to take it to the Hudson's Bay and it was  reasonably good and there was a man named Dawson, he was  really big.  Q    Was this trap line registered with the government?  A    No.  Q    Many people of the Gitksan use registered trap lines  though, do they not?  A    Just a few should be, to register.  In the old days they  didn't ask to register just around the village.  Q    When you say   THE INTERPRETER:  Or outside the village.  MR. GOLDIE:  I'm not sure I understand that response.  Q    Do you mean that the government did not ask the Gitksan  people to register their trap lines other than when they  were just around the village?  A    No.  Round about 1918 or maybe 1920 was about the time  they were asked to register the trap lines and they were  also asked to make a map. There was an Indian agent who  said that.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    The map showed the trap lines?  THE INTERPRETER:  Pardon me?  MR. GOLDIE:  The question is, did the map to which she  referred show the trap lines?  MR. GRANT:  I am just concerned that there seemed to be an  answer while you were asking that question.  THE INTERPRETER:  She thinks the name of the Indian agent was  Mr. Hyde. And the question you asked was?  MR. GOLDIE:  Did the map to which she refer show the trap  lines?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  There was no maps but people who went out to  their trap lines did try to draw, you know, rivers or  what areas they had. The owners of these trap lines.  BY MR. GOLDIE: Q     This  is when they registered? A    Yes, when  they first tried to register.  Q    Can she tell me again if she hasn't already why  Xhliimlaxha  did not register its trap lines?  A    There is an area far away, the headwaters of the Skeena  named Miinhl laxmihl, was registered for about four 88  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  years in a row by Philip Wilson.  Q    Philip Wilson is a member of what house?  A    He belonged to Xhliimlaxha, that is why he registered  it.  Q    Was that registration  not continued?  A    He registered it, Philip did, and when he died it was  registered by George Sexsmith probably another four  years.  Q    George Sexsmith became Xhliimlaxha?  A    (In English) My uncle.  Q    Did the registration lapse after George Sexsmith  registered the trap line in his name?  THE INTERPRETER:  What do you mean by lapse?  Ended?  MR.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  THE WITNESS:  Yes. He was burned in a camp and all the papers  were burned with him.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    And that is why the registration has not been continued?  A    Yes.  That was when Cecelia and Frank Harris picked it  up. I hope Ian will go and get the paper I was talking  about from Jimmy.  Q    Will that show the trap lines?  A    Yes.  Cecelia registered it and put all her children's  name down, Arnold, John, Robert, Joannie and Vicky. The  work was done by -- with Frank Harris.  You will see it  when they bring it.  Q    All right, thank you. I'll wait until I see it then.  Mrs. Brown, at page 16 of the transcript of the 31  October, Mr. Grant asked you about where you picked your  berries and you said that you were not able to go up to  a lake because of "No Trespassing" sign and then he  asked you these questions.  Question:   "Who put those signs up?"  Answer:   "White people."  Question:   "Do you still harvest blueberries?"  Answer:     "There's absolutely  no blueberries  there  now the farmers are all up there."  Question:   "You're referring to 'up there' which  I'll assume is up river but this is your  territory in the Kispiox valley you're talking  about?"  Mrs. Sampson:  "This side of the river."  Mrs. Brown:  "Where they're farming now."  Question:   "Is that the Gitksan name for it?"  Mrs. Sampson:  "Yes.  Where the Campbells live, I  don't know what that creek is." 89  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  Mrs. Brown:  "That is the name of the creek,  Tsihl'niit'in."  Question:  Was this creek shown to Marvin George  when he went up there with you?"  Answer:  "I just pointed it out from across the  river because we were on the other side."  Question:  "I asked you what berries you do not  pick now, maybe it's easier to ask you which  of the berries you picked in the old days you  can still pick on your territory now,  if any?"  Answer:  "I told you before there was absolutely  nothing. At one time we were able to go where  mom's house used to be and today there's a  fence across and a big sign 'No Trespassing'."  Q    The reason for these "No Trespassing" signs is because  those lands are now occupied by farmers?  MR. GRANT: I believe you should give that section to the  Interpreter.  You have read a long section and I am not  sure what the Witness has picked up and what she hasn't.  MR.  GOLDIE:   If you like.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  THE INTERPRETER: She remembers a place called Tsihl'niit'in,  it's all farm land now. Does that answer?  MR. GOLDIE: All right.  Q   So the "No Trespassing" signs that Mrs. Brown referred  to are there because those lands are now being farmed by  farmers, is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, in this court action does Mrs. Brown want those  farmers sent away so that there can be berry picking  there again?  A   If we could go and pick there again but I don't know if  there will be any berry crop there.  Q   Well, what does she want done in this court action?  A   As long as they agree what berry patch is where my  mother's house used to be, if we could pick there and  maybe the children can trap up above.  Q   So she doesn't mind the farmers being there as long as  she can pick all the berries there are, is that right?  A   Yes, they can stay there if they're nice people.  Q   And if they're not?  A   Then I'll kick them.  Q   Now, Marty Allen's farm was farmed by white people  before Mrs. Brown was born, is that not correct?  A   No, we were fairly young when a man named George Burns 90  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  came .  Q    Is it  A    There's a place where Ted Campbell is, that's where we  used to berry pick. Ted Campbell was a very nice man  and often....     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  He was a nice man, was willing to assist  her mother.  Whatever they're doing.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Well, just going back to one of the names you mentioned,  George Burns, did he not farm on that property before  Martha was born?  A    He cleared quite a big area where the wolves nearly took  us. When we were digging potatoes the wolves were right  close by here during the night.  Q    Hadn't George Burns cleared that land before Mrs. Brown  was born?  A    There's a patch of land there, what we call Laxamaaxws,  where trees don't grow, and that is what he fenced up.  Q    That was done before Mrs. Brown was born?  A    Yes.  Q    Thank you.  A    (In English)  It's four o'clock.  Q    It's two minutes to.  Would you like to stop now?  A    (In English) Go ahead,  I'm hungry.  MR. GOLDIE: We won't go very much longer.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    You described for Mr. Grant a feast for Jessie Olson; do  you remember that?  A    Yes.  MR. GOLDIE: Was the answer to that yes?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Some eight to $10,000 was put in the pot, do you  remember how many people would have contributed that sum  of money?  A    All the Wolf tribe.  Q    Can Mrs. Brown guess at the number?  A    Me.  Eva. Marvin.  Lloyd. Johnny Olson.  Axel Olson.  Rupert Olson.  Amanda Johnson. 91  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  THE INTERPRETER:  The names she mentioned, those were the  immediate family, and then there is the House of  'Wiigoob'l's contributed.  And another house Dogoges.  And Spookx, another house, contribute.  Q    These would all be members of the Wolf Clan?  A    Yes.  Q    They came from Kispiox, Hazelton and Glen Vowell?  A    Yes.  Q    What do those people do? Do they work in a sawmill or  do they    THE INTERPRETER:  Which people?  MR. GOLDIE:  I am talking now about the people who earn money  that would contribute to Jessie Olson's feast?  THE WITNESS:  Some of them at the sawmill.  BY MR GOLDIE:  Q    This is the    A    The Department of Highway, where Alex Olson works.  Logging truck Rupert Olson drives.  John Olson owner of  a store.  Q    Yes?  A    Amanda,  she is an operator for I don't know how long,  operator for B.C. Tel.  Q    Yes?  A    Or Telephone.  Q    Yes.  Is that pretty much what her recollection is now?  THE INTERPRETER:  That's her family.  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I think I'll leave it at that then. Until  tomorrow morning.  THE WITNESS:  I'm lazy for tomorrow.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4.03 p.m. 23 JANUARY,  1986.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  Veronica Harper (Ms)  Official Court Reporter  VH/lre-Feb. 1/86 B.C.R.S.A. #263 92  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  FRANCES SAMPSON,  Interpreter,  previously  Sworn  MARTHA BROWN  Witness called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs,  Previously Sworn,  testifies, as follows:    UPON COMMENCING AT 11.00 a.m., 23 JANUARY,  1986  CROSS-EXAMINATION  BY MR. GOLDIE  (CONTINUED)  Q    Mrs. Brown, do you recall Mr. Grant suggesting to you  that there were three main tribes of the Gitksan,  the  Wolf, the Fireweed and the Frog; is there not one other  tribe or Clan, namely the Eagle, that is part of the  Gitksan?  A    It is just a crest for the Fireweed, it's a crest. Geel  has his own crest. Gutgwinuxs has his own crest,  it's a  crest.  Geel has his own crest. Gutgwinuxs  has his own  crest.  Anda'ap is another one. He has his own crest.     OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    My question, is there not another Clan like the Wolf and  Fireweed which is called the Eagle?  A    No. We are not like the Nisgas.  Kitwancool, is the  same way, they have extra. There's four Clans in the  Nisga area and the same in the Kitwancool but we are not  like that.  MR. GOLDIE:  "We" being?  THE INTERPRETER:  The Gitksan.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Are not the Kitwancool people Gitksan?  A    They are Gitksan people but they are more like the Nisga  people.  Q    I am going to show you a map which I saw on the wall of  this room and I've borrowed it to look at it; have you,  Mrs. Brown,  seen that map?  A    Yes.  I forget who showed it to me.  MR. GRANT:  Let her look at it closely.  THE WITNESS:  Somebody showed it to me, whether it was in  Hazelton -- I forget where someone showed it to me. 93  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Did you, Mrs. Brown, have anything to do with its  preparation?  Did you help the people who made it in  determining the boundaries of the territory of the Wolf  Clan, for instance?  A    No.  Q    That map shows some territory belonging to the Eagle  Clan, would that be part of the Kitwancool people?  A    It's from the Nisga people. They want to claim land  over in this area.  Q    The Nisga?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  THE WITNESS :  Yes .  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Is that land that the Nisga people say is theirs?  MR. GRANT?  For the record I would like -- first of all I  believe this map should be marked as an Exhibit.  MR. GOLDIE:  I'm going to do that but let me ask the  question    MR. GRANT:  I have no objection to the question.  I just want  to clarify, the Witness isn't looking at the map and it  appears from the record that there's different coloured  shades in the Eagle    MR. GOLDIE:  Mr. Grant,  let me deal with that please.  I am  pursuing a line of questioning which arises out of an  answer    MR. GRANT:  I want her to be able to look at the map itself.  MR. GOLDIE:  I am not talking about the map right now.  Q    The question was,  is the land which the Nisga claims is  theirs part of the land which the Gitksan people say is  theirs?  A    The land is that they're claiming belongs to the  Gitksan,  for example,  'Niist territory.  They're  claiming right alongside the area called Miinhl  laxmihl.  This is, this is their doing, they've worked  hard trying to claim the area.  Just lately they claim  they gave it up.  They know that they cannot claim the  areas they want.  Q    Now, I'm going to ask Mrs. Brown if she can indicate on  that map which we referred to a few minutes ago the  territory that she is talking about but,  first, let's  have the map marked as an Exhibit -- is it six?  MR. GRANT:  Five, I believe.    EXHIBIT NO. 5 - Document showing map of area, with  different coloured areas. 94  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q   Now, Mrs. Brown, when you look at that map -- and  perhaps Mrs. Sampson can point out to you where Hazelton  is on it -- would you try and point out the area that  you have been talking about which the Nisga people have  been working to say is theirs?  THE INTERPRETER:  She can't really clearly see the map.  MR. GOLDIE:  Would it be possible for a little more light to  be shone on the map?  THE INTERPRETER:  Skeena River she wants.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Now,  if you look to Kispiox   MR. GRANT:  Just for the record,  she's been asking where the  Skeena is and I have been showing her where the river is  marked.  MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me, let Mrs. Sampson do it please.  THE WITNESS:  I think it's on the left where Miinhl laxmihl  is located.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  Coming towards us as -- is where Miinhl laxmihl  is belong to 'Niist is what they're claiming, trying to  claim.  Another area they claim is belonging to  Guniiho'oxs.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Now, Mrs. Brown pointed in the general area of the upper  left hand corner of the map -- is that right, Mrs.  Sampson?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  It appears now where that number 37 is  just above  the mid line of Exhibit five,  she was pointing to. For  the record.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Mrs. Brown, do you know a lake by the name or Meziaden  Lake?  A   You know where we go up and come to the cafe  and another  road goes to the left, that is where Meziaden is. When  we  used to go up to berry pick.  Q   Is  any part of that area said by the Nisga to be their  territory?  MR. GRANT:  Which area are you referring to?  MR. GOLDIE:  Where the road turns to the left at Meziaden  Lake,  just what the Witness described. 95  BROWN. M.  Cross_Ex.  Mr. Goldie  THE WITNESS:  They try to claim the whole area.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Including what she has just described?  A    Yes.  Q    Thank you.  A    That is why James Morrison is now building cabins up in  that area.  On their trap line.  Q    On their trap line?  THE  INTERPRETER:   Yes.  THE WITNESS :   Yes .  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    And James Morrison is from Kispiox?  A    He is from Kisgagas.  Before when they used to go up  there they used to go towards here and then they crossed  the Skeena and over a mountain called poison Mountain.  Q    All right.  A    I'm not sure what the Gitksan called the mountain.  Q    I would like a little more help with respect to where  James Morrison is building cabins but, first,  I want to  know is James Morrison a Gitksan?  A    They have territories and there's reason for those  territories.  For instance, place called Miinhl laxmihl,  they killed one of my great grandmothers, and I don't  know how many great grandmothers.  THE INTERPRETER:  I just lost my space here.  THE WITNESS:  The settlement for killing grandmother, the  whole territory belonged to Stikeen people, because of  the killing or murder in turn as settlement for the  blood,  they gave the territory to the Gitksan people.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    That Was the stikeen people?  A    Yes.  All right. But James Morrison is building cabins, if I  understood what Mrs. Brown said, because the Nisga are  making some claims on the territory including that just  around Meziaden Lake; my question is, is James Morrison  a member of the Gitksan people?  We are all the same, Kisgagas people are Gitksan.  Q    What house does James Morrison belong to?  A    I forget who the chief is.  I think it's Txawok. They  come from Kisgagas.  Q    Does Mrs. Brown know what Clan he belongs to? Is he a  member of the Wolf Clan or Fireweed or   A    He belongs to the Wolf tribe but the wolf is white and 96  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  the crest is the same with 'Wiik'aax.  Q    Thank you.  A    Masgibuu is white wolf.  Q    Was there anybody from Kitwancool attending the funeral  feast of Jessie Oldson, Mrs. Brown's sister?  A    I don' t know.  Q    Now, Mrs. Brown said in the course of her earlier  evidence that in the olden days a territory was talked  about at a feast; would you ask her if that's correct?  A    The answer is yes, they always talked about territories  in a feast and whenever one of the members is going to  go up to the territory often he will invite other  members, whoever can come,  in consideration due to the  contribution to the feast.  Q    I understood her to say that at feasts today territory  is not talked about, is that correct?  A    We don't talk about territories today.  Q    Why is that?  A    We're forgetting, we're white people now.  Q    Is it because the people no longer use the territories  that they are not talked about at the feasts?  A    Yes.  Q    I want to ask some questions about the seating  arrangements at feasts.  A    Now, I am not really sure about all the seatings.  Q    At a feast of the Wolf Clan who is the head chief?  A    Me.  Q    Where do you sit?  A    I sit on the chair.  Q    Who sits on your right on a chair?  MR. GRANT:  Just a point of clarification, you're asking about  at a Wolf feast?  THE WITNESS:  If the Fireweed holds a feast I sit on the end  of the table.  On one side of the table sits 'Wii  Eelast, and on the left is 'Wii  'Mugulsxw, and next down  is Hawaaw'.  BY  MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Is 'Wii Eelast a chief of the 'Wii Eelast Clan or house  I mean?  A    'Wii Eelast has his own household and it's just recent  years that the seatings were changed where we all sit  together.  Q    Is 'Wii Eelast Jimmy Angus?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes, nodding.  MR.  GOLDIE:  Thank you.  Q    Mrs. Brown, you described for Mr. Grant that when you 97  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  were between the ages of 12 and 19 you went to the  territory of your grandfather, Walter Gale; do you  recall giving that information to Mr. Grant?  A    I remember everything I have said because I don't know  how many times I've answered the same questions.  Q    Thank you. Can you tell me where Walter Gale's  territory is?  A    There's....  THE INTERPRETER:  She's pointing on her knee.  THE WITNESS:  There's a place called Miinhl laxmihl and there  is a mountain next to it. The territory belongs to Gale  on the other side of the mountain, opposite of Miinhl  laxmihl.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Is that beyond Kispiox?  A    (In English) About 300 miles.  Q    How many days did it take to get there?  A    (In English) About one week. Six horses.  Q    Is the House of Geel the owner of that territory where  you went with Walter Gale?  A    They were in the same situation as we were. Some of  their members were murdered or killed and the settlement  was when they turned that territory over to them.  Q    That was part of the territory that the Stikeen people  turned over as compensation  for the murder?  A    Most of the territories up along the Skeena once  belonged to the Stikeen people.  Q    And that territory which is part of the Gale territory  is near the territory of Xhliimlaxha?  THE INTERPRETER: I have to write this down. That territory?  MR. GOLDIE: Yes, which is Gale's territory, is near the  territory of Xhliimlaxha from the same settlement turned  over by the Stikeen people?  MR. GRANT:  I don' t think the answer was the same.  MR. GOLDIE: All right.  MR. GRANT: So I think your question may be misleading.  MR. GOLDIE: I'll clarify that.  THE INTERPRETER: Shall I ask her this one?  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Ask her if Gale's territory is close to the territory of  Xhliimlaxha?  A    It's right next to it, the half mountain is Gale's and  the other half is Xhliimlaxha.  Q    Was the territory turned over to the two houses by the 98  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  A   Yes.  Q   What is the name -- Sorry.  A   Beyond Galdo's belongs to the Stikene people, the place  called Anxhlimooxt.   All this area belongs to the  Stikene  people.  The Stikene people used to come and  murder people so the settlement was turned over to  various people,  for instance,  'Niist, that is why this  is their territory.  Q   Who is the chief of -- who is Geel today?  What is the  English  name of Geel today?  A   Walter Harris.   He doesn't -- he's not really eager to  be amongst a situation like this.  His mother, Clara,  is  quite pleased that I know all the names. If I could go  up I could name the various mountains.  Q   Geel is not part of the court action, is it?  A   I don't know, Neil John mentioned that he is about ready  to participate.  Q    Neil John being Mr. Sterritt?  A    Yes.  Q    Thank you.  In the map that Mrs. Brown said she would  ask Ian to get, and that I requested production of, is  the territory of Xhliimlaxha that we have been talking  about, namely up near this mountain,  is that shown on  that map?  A    I never really checked the paper out.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Just for the record,  I have indicated this  morning    THE WITNESS:  They drew it funny, it's all -- the only thing  they showed was where does the Nass River run. That is the  only view.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right,  I am not going to ask any further  questions on that territory until we see the map.  MR. GRANT:  For the record,  I've indicated that I was unable  to get it for this morning but I'll endeavour to get it  so you have an opportunity to look at it.  MR. GOLDIe:  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  If it still exists or able to be obtained.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Mrs. Brown, Mr. Grant asked you if there were telegraph  cabins on either your territory or Gale's territory, and  my note is that you said that there was only a short  distance on the territory where the telegraph line went  through; is there only one cabin on your territory?  One  telegraph cabin on your territory? 99  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  Do I repeat your question to her?  MR.  GOLDIE:   Yes.  MR.  GRANT:  Yes.  THE WITNESS:  There is only one cabin.  Then the line turned  and it went over another mountain.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Is this the telegraph line?  A    Yes.  Q    Is it the eighth cabin which is on the territory of  Xhliimlaxha? A    I'm  not sure, it's either eighth or ninth.  Q    The telegraph line was there when you were a little  girl, was it, Mrs. Brown?  A    Yes.  Q    Did you ever hear of any objections by Xhliimlaxha  to  the telegraph line going through the territory of  Xhliimlaxha?  A    No.  The Native people long ago were like little  children, whichever way the white people pushed them  that is the way they went along.  They believed in the  white people that when they came they were going to help  the Native people so whatever they did they went along  with it.  Q    Yes.  Mrs. Brown, are you a member of the Band Council  of Glen Vowell Reserve?  A    I believe so.  Q    Has the Band Council sought to have more land added to  the Reserve?  A    I don't know.  I don't think so.  Q    Does Mrs. Brown know how many members there are of the  Glen Vowell Band?  A    I don't know.  Q    Do a number of members of the band live off the reserve?  A    A lot have moved off.  Q    About half of them?  MR. GRANT: I just don't want the Witness to guess. If she  knows, fine.  MR. GOLDIE: She's entitled to guess if she wants to. This  is Cross-Examination.  THE WITNESS:  I don't know how many moved away. All I know is  Brenda moved.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Is there a chief who is the head of the Wolf Clan? A 100  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  head chief?  THE INTERPRETER:  I don't know how to translate that.  THE WITNESS: You're nosy,  I'm sitting right here.  MR. GOLDIE: That's what I thought!  THE WITNESS: Thank you for your nosy.  BY MR.  GOLDIE  Q    Mrs. Brown, do you remember Mrs. Loring, the wife of the  Indian agent many years ago?  A    My mother used to talk about it when they first moved  there, to the village, they lived across....     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: They had a place where they lived called  Hiisgama'urn.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q    Did Mrs. Brown know Mrs. Loring's first husband, Mr.  Hankin?  A    No, but I do know Arthur Hankin.  Q    That is Mrs. Loring' s son?  A    Yes.  Q    Was Mrs. Loring a Native person?  Was she Indian?  A    He's from the Kitwanga.  Q    She was?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q    So she was a Gitksan from Kitwanga?  A    Yes.  The ghost of these people will come upon us if we  keep talking about them!     OFF THE RECORD     SHORT RECESS  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q    Mrs. Brown,  I want to ask you a few questions about  Exhibit two -- perhaps you might have that. Do you  remember going out with Marvin George and Susan Marsden  in a car from Kispiox and driving north from there and  telling them of various  places along the road? You  remember that, don't you?  A    I'm getting  tired of answering the same question.  It  must  be at  least a hundred  times the  same question  answered that. 101  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  Q   Good.  On page one, at 10 kilometres, you identified a  place for Tomlinson's baby daughter; who was Tomlinson  please?  A   I forget who the Tomlinson were, Robert Tomlinson I  think is -- his sister's daughter.  The place is called  Xsa angexhlast.  Q   Right around there is the land of Ma'us?  A   The Frog Clan holds that territory. A place called  Gwunsabaya  right on to -- right now the 17 mile bridge.  Right about where now steelhead camp is situated.  Q   Then beyond the land of Ma'us or the Frog Clan is the  land of Dogoges?  THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, where are you referring  to?  MR. GOLDIE:  I' m on page two, 14.1 kilometres.  THE INTERPRETER:  What was the name again?  THE WITNESS:  Yes  it is.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Is that the same thing as Hawaaw'?  A   They have the same house or same place.  ---  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: They're all at the same place.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   But  is it the same house?  A   Yes.  Q   Does  that mean that there are two different names for  the  same house then?  A   There's three chief name in one House of Lax Gibuu.  Q   Can  she give me the other, third name?  A   Hawaaw'.  MR. GRANT:  Just for clarification,  it may be unclear that  Ma'us and Dogoges were in the same house.  I am not sure  if  that is how the question was asked.  MR.  GOLDIE:  No.  MR. GRANT:  So you may want to re-phrase that question.  MR. GOLDIE: I think it is quite clear, Ma'us and Dogoges  are in the same house.  Q    Isn't that right?  A    They are all the same.  Q    Page three, at the top of the page, the person who's  writing this down has a definition of boundary and it  reads:  " Don't go on the top of hill or down the  other side if you get something there they 102  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  take it away from you" .  Would you ask her if that is the way in which every  boundary is defined?  That is to say, it marks the  difference between the land where you can take game and  keep it as opposed to land where you cannot keep it if  you take the game?  Do you follow me?  A    I'm getting tired of this. It's the Indian law. For  instance,  it's the Indian or Gitksan or Indian law that  we do have a line or boundary that whoever owns on one  side can take from that side but they cannot cross the  line and take from the other side otherwise they take  it away and in turn the other side cannot enter into our  boundary.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Thank you.  I'm going to suggest we  adjourn for lunch.  I gather from what Mrs. Brown said  she's getting a little tired.  MR. GRANT:  Yes, I agree, she's getting tired.  THE WITNESS:  I'll sleep for a while.  MR. GRANT:  Can you ask when she feels would be a good time to  come back?  THE WITNESS:  I don't know, we had better hurry it up, I'm  getting tired of this whole thing.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.20 p.m.    UPON RESUMING AT 1.30 p.m.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    CROSS-EXAMINATION  BY MR. GOLDIE  (CONTINUED)  Q    Mrs. Brown, we were looking at the notes that Marvin  George and Susan Marsden prepared as a result of your  trip along the road north of Kispiox.  I would ask that  Mrs. Sampson be given a copy of it.  I am going to refer  to page three.  A    We' re back to the same thing again?  Q    We are. Could you tell me if there are -- if there is  an English meaning for the word Wilna'masxw on the left  hand side     MR. GRANT:  Is that just below   BY  MR. GOLDIE:  Q     of that little drawing?  A    The red spot. 103  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  Q   That is the meaning for the red spot?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  Q   Going over to the next page at 19.4 kilometres, Mrs.  Brown appears to have stated that she used to pick  blueberries there and is now a farm; would you ask her  please if she knows the name of that farm and the person  who lives there?  A   I don't know who first lived there, and I keep  forgetting what person, people living there now.  Q   It is now a farm though, is it?  A   The whole area is farm. They plant oats where we used  to pick berries.  Q   She stated that her grandfather burned one side of the  river and two years later he burned the other side for  berries; is there any farm on the other side of the  river where he burned?  A   They are both farm lands now.  Q   On both sides of the river?  A   Yes.  Q   Then they came to Marty Allen's Ranch and she said  George Burns used to own it and he gave it to Dorothy  and Dorothy married and now owns everything; does she  know who Dorothy is?  A   Used to be Dorothy Love before.  Q   Dorothy?  THE  INTERPRETER:  Love.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q   Down at the bottom of the page, Mrs. Brown is recorded  as having stated that Yagosip land is on the other side  of the river; could she explain to me who Yagosip is?  A   Mary is the name of the woman who married Albert  Johnson, who is now deceased.  The wife of Del is now  using the name Yagosip.  The wife of Delbert Turner.  MR.  GOLDIE:  Wife of?  THE INTERPRETER:  Delbert Turner.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q   Then they get as far as the point where she - - I am now  on the next page -- where she stated that across the  river is the boundary with the -- I can't quite make  that out?  THE INTERPRETER: What was your question?  MR. GOLDIE:  I couldn't make out what that word is, what did  you say?  THE INTERPRETER:  Katgaiden. 104  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  MR. GOLDIE:  And in brackets it's followed with the words....  THE WITNESS:  What is Chris Skulch name?  Kwiiyeehl.  MR GOLDIE:  I see Kwiiyeehl again and it's spelled with G in  the Statement of Claim.  Q    That is the name of the house but is Gitkatgaiden part  of your house?  A    It's a territory but they have their house,  Gitkatgaiden, but I forget who the chiefs in that house  -- names of the chiefs in that house. Their crest is  the killer whale.  Q    Are they members of the House of Gitksan?  A    They must all be Gitksan, that is why they live here.  Q    Now, go back a page please, and if I read this  correctly, at 24.7 kilometres on the left side at the  place of Stinging Nettles she came to the boundary of  Xhliimlaxha,  is that correct?  A    Yes.  Yagosip owns the other side.  Q    IS Xhliimlaxha's territory  north from there or had they  been in Xhliimlaxga's territory when they arrived at  that point?  A    It's at the end, Mary lives on one side and we have no  business going across.  If Mary says we cannot go across  and fish we cannot go across.  Q    That's Mary Johnson?  A    Mary Johnson long ago she died, not the one living now  in Kispiox.  Q    Can she tell me Mary Johnson's house?  THE INTERPRETER:  This Mary Johnson or the old?  MR. GOLDIE:  The old one.  THE WITNESS:  Wolf.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q    But if the house was. . . .  A    She came out of Spookx house because she's Yagosip.  THE INTERPRETER:  So it is another house.  MR. GOLDIE:  And the house you just referred to?  THE  INTERPRETER:   Spookx.  MR. GOLDIE:  Turn to page six please? The second entry from  the bottom, 52.8 kilometres.  MR. GRANT:    Left side.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Spookx fishing site, is that the house you have just  referred to?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, I want to ask you some further questions about the  territory but I prefer to do that if we could see  whatever it is that Jimmy Angus has and if there is any 105  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  possibility of getting that this afternoon I think I can  conclude my Examination.  MR. GRANT: I take that is the main area, that is the area you  have left?  MR. GOLDIE: Yes.  It may lead into other things but generally  speaking it may enable me to dispose of the balance of  the questions I have which are primarily the territory.  MR. GRANT: As I indicated before we started this afternoon I  have endeavoured to locate Mr. Angus.  If I can adjourn  now I will make some calls and see what I can do.  MR. GOLDIE: All right. Thank you.     SHORT RECESS  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    I have asked Mrs. Brown to have another look at Exhibit  one, which is a photograph of the houses at Kispiox, and  I would like her if she could to tell me the names of  the houses from left to right or however she wants to do  it?  MR. GRANT: Just to clarify, before she answers, are you  asking for names of the houses    MR.  GOLDIE:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:    or the names of the persons,  the house  group    MR.  GOLDIE:  Well     MR. GRANT:  -- which would be in those houses? They may be  different things, that is why I want to clarify that.  MR. GOLDIE: Let's see what Mrs. Brown says.  THE INTERPRETER:  pointing to the left or to the right?  THE WITNESS:  The first house is Dogoges.  MR. GOLDIE: Just pause there.  Q    Is that name the name of a chief in the present action?  A    You should know a little bit by now, we have been  calling Dogoges.  THE INTERPRETER:  At present?  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Is that the name of a chief who is in the court action?  MR. GRANT:  Do you want that clarification from counsel?  MR.  GOLDIE:  Sure.  MR. GRANT: Dogoges is not named in the pleadings.  As a  Plaintiff.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Is Dogoges the name of a house of people?  A    He has a house that is why it is present in the picture. 106  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  Q Is there chief today of that name?  A Rosie Pierre.  Q How is that spelled?  THE INTERPRETER:  R-0-S-I-E.   P-I-E-R-R-E.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Does that house have territory?  A    Every, they own territories.  Every house on here, they  all have territories where they trap.  Q    Would she identify the next one please?  A    This is another house of the same tribe, and then the  third one house down is Gwilaxgan.  There's a crest  established in front of the building.  MR. GRANT:  For the record, the first house she referred to  was on the right side of Exhibit one.  MR.  GOLDIE:   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  She's going from right to left in this  description.  MR. GOLDIE:  Her answer was another house of the same tribe?  THE INTERPRETER:  The first one and the second are all in  Wolf.  Many houses, each chief has their own house.  What else?  MR. GOLDIE:  Now, can she give me the chief's name?  THE INTERPRETER:  She made a mistake.  Gwilaxgan is Lax Gibuu.  Correction on the name is Chris Skulch.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  The house she pointed out, the crest belongs  to Kwiiyeehl and that's their house.  She pointed to  another totem pole and that's their totem pole.  BY  MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Does she know   A    There's a whole spot behind one of the totem poles and  when they were kids they used to go and run and hide in  there.  MR. GRANT:  Again for the record    THE INTERPRETER:  She's going ahead of everybody I think.  The  next one is Xhliimlaxha's house and there's a totem pole  with a Wolf on top.  BY  MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Does she know the English name or the chief who holds  the name of the house?  THE  INTERPRETER:    'Wiik'aax?  MR.  GOLDIE:   Yes. 107  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  THE WITNESS:  Chris Skulch.  MR.  GOLDIE:  Right.  MR. GRANT:  That reference she was making was to the third  house to the right from Exhibit one, the totem pole  seemed to be -- it was the fourth one from the right  hand side because there is one that is dark, in the  shadows.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q    Now, the house next to Xhliimlaxha?  A    Nuxs.  The proper saying is Gutgwinuxs.  Q    What is the English name of the chief who holds that  name today?  A    Willy Morrison.  Q    And that chief is not part of the court action,  is that  correct?  MR. GRANT:  The chief isn't a named chief in the court action.  MR. GOLDIE:  The question was, that chief is not part of the  court action?  MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  I object because I don't  understand what you mean by part of the court action.  I  don't think it is fair to this Witness to ask a question  which I can't even understand.  MR. GOLDIE:  She may understand  things that you don't.  That  doesn't necessarily follow.  MR. GRANT:  I object to the question as worded.  MR. GOLDIE:  Willy Morrison?  THE INTERPRETER:  Her answer when it was first asked, he's  always with it.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q    But he is not a named Plaintiff, he is not part of the  court action at this time?  MR. GRANT:  On behalf -- I would certainly make that  admission, he is not a named Plaintiff.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q    Does his house have a territory?  A    That is their territory which I mentioned across the  river here, the mountain and, well, Stagait, just  straight across, and another spot Ansumlaan it's called.  Q    Is that territory within the territory claimed in the  court action?  A    It's all included, it should be all included.  MR. GRANT: For the record, when she was referring across the  river, she was pointing across the Skeena River from the  Village here. 108  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Are there any other houses that she can identify?  A   Between Geel 'Niist there's another house, Txahawaltxw,  Frog Clan.  THE  INTERPRETER: The name is difficult to say, she said.  MR.  GOLDIE: I'll accept that.  Q   What is the English name of the chief who holds the name  today?  A   I forget his name.  MR.  GRANT: She's referring to the sixth house from the right.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   The House of Geel is there,  is it not?  A   Yes.  Q   And the name of the chief who holds that name is Walter  Harris,  is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   And that house holds territory?  A   Yes.  Q   And that territory is included in the court action?  A   Shit,  I don't know.  THE INTERPRETER:   That's her answer,  shit,  I don't know.  BY MR.  GOLDIE:  Q   Geel is not a Plaintiff in the action?  A   The family can't get him to speak. He's too shy.  He's  not a verbal man.  Q   Nobody speaks for Geel in this court action, do they?  A   I'm the only one who keeps -- because I see how much  territory he has, he could easily become a millionaire  if he goes up behind the headwaters of the Skeena and he  could easily find gold and bring it out.  Q   If Walter Harris doesn't speak nobody can speak for him,  is that correct?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:   I'll try and explain.  THE WITNESS:  We are not like the white man's system where  white men doesn't speak and nobody else can speak.  In  our system....    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  The other side, Geel's, like in the House of  Geel if Geel himself doesn't speak there are others in  the house that will speak for him, this is our laws. 109  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Who are the others in the House of Geel?  A   There's a lot of them. Some are Clara's children....  THE INTERPRETER:  Naming one, Thelma.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   She's Speaks    THE INTERPRETER:  There was a younger one who she talked to  and were interested.  THE WITNESS:  I was brought up by Geel --  THE INTERPRETER:  Meaning herself.  THE WITNESS:  I will stand behind him to support you.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Now, are there any other houses that you can identify in  that photograph?  A   There's one house there, Niiyestaxhuuk,  is part of  Geel' s but there was some conflict so he built his own  house and he was alone in that house. The next house is  Guluuhlametxwt,  which belonging to Mary Johnson.  The  reason why they called it Guluuhlametxwt,  just before  chiefs come for feast to Kispiox they've already  established that house, that is why they called it  Guluuhlametxwt.  Q   Thank you. Is the House of Eelast in there?  In that  photograph?  A   It's not in the photo but it was up in behind --  THE INTERPRETER:  -- she named the House of Eelast --  THE WITNESS:  -- And Yagadets, there's presently where the  houses were situated is now the spawning ground.  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   In that photograph are those facing the Skeena River?  A   All the houses face the Skeena, even the houses we  mentioned, they all face towards the Skeena.  Q   We spoke this morning of the telegraph, does Mrs. Brown  remember buildings that were part of the telegraph  called the Fort Stager?  THE INTERPRETER:  Repeat the question?  BY MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Does Mrs. Brown remember some buildings connected with  the telegraph and was part of the telegraph called Fort  Stager near Kispiox?  A   I don't remember anything.  MR. GOLDIE:  That was the answer?  THE INTERPRETER:  She heard the question, she said I don't  remember. 110  BROWN. M.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Goldie  Re-Exam.  Mr. Grant  MR. GOLDIE:   Fine. I have no further questions with respect  to Exhibit  one.  I think, Mr. Grant, you wanted to say  something about the means by which I can examine on the  document that we have been talking about, if that turns  up?  MR. GRANT: Well, other than that document you have completed  your Cross-Examination:  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  MR. GRANT: I have a call in and the messages are being left  for the person who may have this document. I am at  least trying to confirm that today.  But he is out of  town and the very earliest I would be able to get it  would be tonight or early in the morning if it is  readily at hand. This gives you -- I understand you may  wish to complete your Cross-Examination and if you wish  to examine on it, you would make an appointment for  Discovery    MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  MR. GRANT: Or the option is we adjourn now and    MR. GOLDIE: I would prefer to treat the Examination complete  in the sense I have spoken of and invite you to complete  your Re-Examination.  MR. GRANT:  In that case,  I would like, as I anticipated from  the way you talked yesterday that this would be in the  morning,  so what I would like is five or ten minute  break so I can prepare that.  Go off the record.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    SHORT RECESS  RE-EXAMINATION BY MR.  GRANT  Q   Mrs. Brown,  I would just like to ask you a very few  questions arising out of the answers you gave Mr.  Goldie.  Yesterday Mr. Goldie asked you about the land  claim with the Federal Government and one of the  questions he asked you was, what did you want from the  Federal Government.  You answered, we want to be free,  we want from the government to be free is my note; can  you explain why you feel unfree?  A   The Native people are not free. Whenever we want to go  anywhere white people is there and doesn't allow it.  This is why I want the Native people to be free.  Whatever they want to do they can go to a certain place,  maybe to eat. For instance, now, speaking of the Nass,  they go whenever there is season for ooligans. Ill  BROWN. M.  Re.Exam.  Mr. Grant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: Now, we are going during ooligan season to the  Nass and we can take along whatever we can trade with  them but now everything is for sale and we can't do that  any more.  THE INTERPRETER:  That's all.  MR. GRANT:  If I can just go off the record for a moment,  there is someone on the phone.    OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   You have just described in general terms what you meant  when you told Mr. Goldie when you wanted the Indian to  be unfree but can you explain that in terms of  yourself?  How do you feel unfree yourself?  A   I don't feel right being home all the time.  THE INTERPRETER:  That' s what she said.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Mr. Goldie asked you what was the name of the fishing  site of Dogoges, where you took the trout and your  answer was, as I understand it, Naskant'imi'itxwt; did  you point out that fishing site to Marvin George when  you went upriver?  A  We stopped at a place called Xsiseasatxwt and I pointed  out to him the place called Naskant' imi' itxwt to them.  Presently now by the steelhead camp there is a road for  the airport, that is the road we took and that's where  it's at.  Q  Does that name mean place where the small berries or  kinnikinnick grow?  A  There's a patch of berries there, what we call  t'imi'it.  I don't know what white man's term for the  berries is.  Q   I'd just like to refer you to Exhibit two, on page two,  the reference at 15.7 kilometres, left side, if you  could say that name and that is the place she was  referring to?  That is the name that is on Exhibit two?  A  Naskant'imi'itxwt.  Q  That's the place?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Mr. Goldie referred you to some of the questions I asked  and in particular I would like to clarify one point. 112  BROWN. M.  Re-Exam.  Mr. Grant  On page three of the October 30,  1985 transcript,  which is labelled Volume III, he referred to a question  at line 31 -- I will give the question to you after I  say it -- I will give it to the Interpreter?  Question:  "Is Anda'ap one of those Chiefs?"  The answer was:  "Guunaxst is one of those Chiefs."  Then there was an explanation  -- an answer given  and your answer was that Guunaxst is a chief of the Wolf  Clan; is Guunaxst another chief's name?  A   Guunaxst is chief of Frog Clan.  Q   IS he in the House of Ma'us.  Is he a chief in the House  of Ma'us?  A   Yes, he's in the same house,  the same as 'Wii 'Mugulsxw.  THE INTERPRETER:  Wait a minute.  I'm getting mixed up.  THE WITNESS: The same as Xhliimlaxha with 'Wii 'Mugulsxw and  Dogoges.  MR. GRANT: Which chief is she referring  to?  Q   What name are you referring  to when you say that?  THE INTERPRETER:  She just used her house as an example.  MR. GRANT:  I see.  THE INTERPRETER:  Matches the same as the names you mentioned.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   But Guunaxst is Frog chief?  A   Yes.  Q   And his relationship to Ma'us is the same as 'Wii  'Mugulsxw's relation to Xhliimlaxha,  is that the answer?  A   Yes.  Q   I see.  Mr. Goldie asked you this question,  if a man  marries a Gitksan woman does he become a member of her  house.  I believe your answer was yes. I want to be  more precise on that. When your husband married you did  he become a member of the House of Xhliimlaxha?  A   No, he has his own chief in his own house.  Q   Is that always the case with the Gitksan?  A   Yes.  Q   Mr. Goldie asked you some questions about who were some  chiefs and I just want to clarify one or two of those  points.  He referred to 'Wii 'Mugulsxw and I believe his  question was whether George Wilson was 'Wii 'Mugulsxw;  do you know what name George Wilson held?  A   I forget,  it is something to do with Frog,  I can't  remember it.  Q    'Wii 'Mugulsxw's is Wolf chief,  is that right?  A   Yes, George is chief too but I can't remember,  something  with Frog.  Q   So just to clarify, who is the present holder of the 113  BROWN. M.  Re-Exam.  Mr. Grant  name 'Wii 'Mugulsxw?  A   Arthur Wilson.  Q   Mr. Goldie asked you if people didn't talk about the  territory in the feast because it was no longer used and  you answered yes   THE INTERPRETER:  That is the feast today?  MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, yes, the feast today.  Q   People don't talk about the territory at the feast today  because it is no longer used, and you said yes. Why is  it no longer used today?  MR. GOLDIE:  She answered the question.  That was the question  that was asked of her.  MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, you asked a follow-up, you're  saying    MR. GOLDIE:  You're asking the question that I asked.  MR. GRANT:  Why it isn't used today?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  I said, why is it not discussed today and  she said because the territory isn't used today.  MR. GRANT:  You misunderstand my question.  Q   Mr. Goldie asked you why the territory is not discussed  at the feast today and you said because it' s not used  today; why is it not used today?  A   They don't seem to discuss it that much today.  I'm not  really sure why not.  Q   I think you may have misunderstood the question.  You  have answered Mr. Goldie why it's not discussed earlier  and you said the territory is not used today; can you  tell us why the territory is not used today?  MR. GOLDIE:  I thought she said she wasn't sure why.  MR. GRANT:  They don't seem to discuss it that much.  I'm  afraid she may have misunderstood as you misunderstood,  that's all.  THE WITNESS:  Today most of our young people are all working,  not years ago.  It's used yearly.  THE INTERPRETER:   That's all.  BY MR.  GRANT:  Q   Mr. Goldie asked you about Geel's territory, which is up  in the north near Xhliimlaxha's territory, next to  Xhliimlaxha's  territory.  In the course of the answers  you explained that the Stikene -- there was a murder and  the Stikene gave that territory to Geel; was there two  separate settlements with respect to Xhliimlaxha's  territory and Geel' s territory?  That is to say, was  Geel' s territory given to him by the Stikene at the same  settlement feast as Xhliimlaxha's territory was given  the Stikene? 114  BROWN. M.  Re-Exam.  Mr. Grant  THE INTERPRETER: Meaning one feast?  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  For the two?  MR. GRANT:  Right.  THE WITNESS: It was two separate.  When they gave territory  to Xhliimlaxha  it was held at Xsa angexhlast where he  lived, we now know as Fisherman's Lodge.  At the  headwaters of the Skeena when Geel went over there Geel  went with other members, one was a Wolf and two is  Frog.  When they were -- when he was given the land  called xsiisxw.  THE INTERPRETER: That's clear enough?  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Q  Have you ever been elected to sit on the Band Council of  the Glen Vowell Band?  A  No.  Too old to be elected.  Q   When Mr. Goldie was referring you to the trip you took  with Marvin George and Susan Marsden up the valley, he  made some reference to different sites on Exhibit two.  He made reference -- there's a reference there to Ma'us  and also to Dogoges; is Ma'us territory different than  Dogoges's territory?  THE INTERPRETER: What was the question?  Are there two  different?  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Is Ma'us territory different than Dogoges's territory?  A  Yes.  Q  Ma'us is Frog and Dogoges is Wolf, is that right?  A  Yes.  Q   Mr. Goldie asked you a number of questions about  yourself, who was the head chief of the Wolf Clan, and  you said Xhliimlaxha. Are the following chiefs chiefs  that you speak for?  'Wii 'Mugulsxw   MR. GOLDIE: Just a second, how does this arise out of my  Examination?  MR. GRANT: There was this questioning.  You questioned with  respect,  I believe it was where you referred to the  houses of 'Wii 'Mugulsxw, Hawaaw', Dogoges, and I just  want to ascertain the relationship of that. She's  raised on hers -- at the end of her -- when you asked  about Geel, that other people can speak for Geel.  MR. GOLDIE: I asked her who was the head chief and she told  me.  I don't think this arises out of my Cross-  Examination.  MR. GRANT: You asked who was the head chief of the Wolf Clan?  MR. GOLDIE: That's right. 115  BROWN. M.  Re-Exam.  Mr. Grant  MR. GRANT:  You also questioned if anyone else can speak for  Geel?  MR. GOLDIE:  And she answered that.  MR. GRANT:  She answered that.  My question to her is, what  it means to be head chief by asking her what she's head  chief over.  MR. GOLDIE:  Well, that doesn't arise out of my Cross-  Examination.  MR. GRANT:  I take it you're objecting to that then?  MR. GOLDIE:  I think the question exceeds the bounds of  re-exami nat i on.  THE WITNESS:  I'm getting sleepy.  MR. GRANT:  I have only - - I'm right near the end.  Q   Mr. Goldie asked you who sits beside you at the feast.  You indicated that 'Wii 'Mugulsxw and 'Wii Eelast.  He  also asked you if 'Wii Eelast had his own house.  Can  Xhliimlaxha speak for 'Wii Eelast?  MR. GOLDIE:  Well, this whole question of one person speaking  for another is appropriate for Evidence in Chief but I  didn't ask if she spoke for anybody.  MR. GRANT: But the whole question you raised the whole issue  with respect to Geel that no one could speak 'for him an  she said that she could.  MR. GOLDIE:  If you want to go into this I'm going to have  some questions to her because I did not ask any  questions about who she could speak for.  I asked her  about Geel and that's the only person I asked her about  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Q   You referred to Exhibit one and one of the places you  stated is that where the houses are situated now is the  spawning grounds; are you referring to the hatchery that  is located in Kispiox?  THE INTERPRETER:   She nodded for yes.  MR. GRANT:  I would just like to take a moment to think about  the position of Mr. Goldie on that one point.  So go of  the record.    SHORT RECESS  MR. GRANT:  Go back on the record.  I have no further questions for you, Mrs. Brown an  your Commission Evidence is finished.  MR. GOLDIE:   Thank you very much, Mrs. Brown, you have been  very-helpful  and very patient.  MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  You can have a few days rest now.    PROCEEDINGS  CONCLUDED AT 3.40 p.m.  23 JANUARY,  1986. 116  BROWN. M.  Re-Exam.  Mr. Grant  I hereby certify the foregoing 24  pages to be a true and accurate  transcript of the proceedings  herein to the best of my skill and  ability.  VH/lre-Feb.  2/86  Veronica Harper  (Ms .)  Official Court Reporter  B.C.S.R.A.  #263

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