Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of V. Giraud Vol. 1] British Columbia. Supreme Court Aug 18, 1987

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 1  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  IN THE SUPREME COURT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA  (Before the Examiner)  No. 0843 Chilliwack, B.C.  August 18, 1987.  BETWEEN  DELGAM UUKW, also known as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf of  all the members of the HOUSE OF DELGAM  UUKW and others  Plaintiffs  AND  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF COLUMBIA and THE  ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA  Defendants  APPEARANCES  S. A. RUSH, Esq. ,      appearing for the plaintiff  MS. M. M. KOENIGSBERG,   appearing for the Attorney General  of Canada  J. M. MacKENZIE, Esq. , appearing for Province of British  Columbia  PROCEEDINGS AT DEPOSITION  VICTOR HERBE GIRAUD, a  witness called on behalf of the  Defendant, Attorney General of  Canada, having first been duly  sworn, testified as follows:  EXAMINED IN CHIEF BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   WOUld you state your name for the record, Mr. Giraud?  A  Victor Herbe Giraud.  Q   And you've been sworn to tell the truth in giving this  commission evidence?  A  Yes, I have.  Q   And you live at 10140 Hymar Drive?  A   That's right.  Q   In Chilliwack? 2  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  A   Chilliwack.  Q   And you're 24 years old?  A   That's right.  Q    Now, way back around  1927, did you move to  Smithers with  your family?  A   Yes, I did.  Q    And how Old Were  you then, do  you recall?   I'm going to  make you do some addition here.  A   I was 14 years old. I was born in 1913, so --  Q    And you went to  school and graduated  from high school in  Smithers?  A   I did.  Q   And that Was in 1930?  A   Yes.  Q     After you graduated  from high  school, what  kind of work  did you do?  A   Well, that was the depression times and that was  anything you could get to do.  Q   Do you recall working as a trapper?  A    Oh, I worked as  a trapper but  that was --  I was thinking  of just working for wages, but as far as that goes I  worked on track gangs, railroad, even put my  apprenticeship in as a section hand at one time, but I  didn't stay around at that, and I trapped with my  partner, Lou, with a partner, Lou Gelley,  I started  trapping with him.  Q   And you said you trapped with a partner, Lou Gelley?  A   That's right.  Q   Is that G-e-1-l-e-y?  A   That's right.  Q   And Can you tell us where you trapped?  A    We originally had two trap lines.   He had one at, called  Grouse Mountain, that's in the walkout area.  Then there     was  another one on the Driftwood River, Driftwood Creek,     a small  stream just north of Smithers on the way to  Babine Lake, and I registered that trapline so we had  spent a week on one and a week on the other.  Q    And did you have  a trapline on what would be called the  Yukon Telegraph Line?  A   Yes, later, we did. We bought this trapline from a  fellow by the name of Jim Hodder.  I don't want to be  too long winded but in the Yukon Telegraph days each  lineman had his  -- registered  his own trapline,  used to  trap when he was going repairing line, but when they  closed It down  a man by the name  of Hodder,  he was able  to register from 3rd cabin to 6th cabin, that was his  line, and Gelley and I, Lou Gelley and I, we took over 3  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  that line.  Q    Okay.  Now, I  just want to back up a bit and talk  a bit  more specifically about the Driftwood Creek trapline.  You say you were  the registered owner of that  trapline? A  Yes.  Q   COUld you come close to telling us when that was?  A   My mind just gone blank right now.  Q   WOUld it be in the 1930's, maybe after the depression  and before the war?  A   Well, it was before the war, but there was still -- it  wasn't good times, you know. It would be --  Q   We don't have to be exact Mr. Giraud?  A    But it  was in the 30' s and it was  before the war,  so it  could have been somewhere around, let's see.  I don't  know if it was before 1936 or not.  I just can't,  I'm  sorry.  Q    Now,  do you know who the previous  owner of that  trapline  was?  A   At the --  Q   Before you registered it?  A   You mean the Driftwood?  Q   Yes, Driftwood Creek?  A   Might have been Allan Fletcher, but I'm not sure.  Q   You think maybe it was Mr. Fletcher?  A    I have a notion it was but I can't  remember for sure. As  I say, my memory's not that good any more.  Q   Okay.  It was a long time ago?  A   Yes.  Q   And do you recall when you were trapping the Driftwood  Creek trapline if you could know -- did you know if  whoever owned it before had trapped it or had it not  been trapped?  A   It hadn't been trapped recently,  I would say that,  because there  was not -- there was  no cubbies (phonetic)  or rap (phonetic) built up. We had to -- special  trapping spots that we knew of,  that we knew.  Q   That WOUld take you back what, a year or two you would  say there hadn't been any activity?  A   Couldn' t have been. I'm sure of that.  Q   Did you actually purchase that trapline?  A    You've got me -- I wasn't expecting all these questions. Q  If you don't remember,  it's okay?  A   I just don't remember, no, I don't remember.  Q    Okay.  Can you tell us how many  seasons you trapped  that  particular line, the Driftwood Creek line?  A   I think It was one or two. That was before -- then we  went north after that. GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  Would that be  we purchased  it  It  a lineman.  worked on the Yukon  Telegraph  Q   Now, you say you went north after that  to the Yukon Telegraph Line?  A   Yes.  That's  old Jim Hodder's  line, when  from Jim Hodder.  Q   Do you recall who was the registered owner, was it you  or Mr. Gelley or both of you?  A   I think it  was a joint affair.   Maybe it  was Gelley  doesn' t matter really. We were partners on the thing.  I don't know if it was Gelley or -- we paid for it  between  us, and when I didn't  go, after  the war  go there any more, Lou Gelley took on another partner  and that was it. I don't know who was --  We're now talking about the Yukon Telegraph Line?  The Yukon Telegraph Line from 3rd to 6th cabin.  You Say you purchased that from a Mr. Hodder?  Hodder.  Is that H-0-d-d-e-r?  That's right.  He was  And he put through - -  Line?  Yes, yes.  And COUld you tell if he had  before you started trapping?  A  Oh, yes, it had been trapped  have an idea that Jim Hodder  two after  the Telegraph Line  how many years now.  Q   And We're talking, you're trapping on the Yukon  Telegraph Line a couple of years after the Driftwood  Creek Telegraph Line?  Pardon?  The time period that we're thinking of  Telegraph Line, is that a couple years  Driftwood Creek?  Oh, yes, yes, couple of years.  In the late 30's maybe?  Yes. It was before the war anyway.  And you've told us you purchased it from  M'hm.  I ' m going to ask you a hard question.  I didn't  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  been trapping it recently  before, before we did. I  trapped it just a year or  shut down,  but I'm not  sure  for the Yukon  after the  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  much you paid for it?  A   I think we paid a couple thousand dollars for it.  Q   And how many seasons did you trap that line?  A  Well, I only put in two on that line.  Q    And, to  your knowledge, did  Mr. Gelley  trap it, continue  to trap it after you stopped?  A  He trapped it after. He even went on it I think one  Mr. Hodder?  Do you recall how 5  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  year or, one or two years after he come back from  oversees after the war,  I think but I had long given up  trapping by that time.  Q   I want to talk a little bit about actually trapping.  The first  thing, how would  you get access,  how would you  go on to your trapline, and let's just talk about the  Yukon Telegraph Line now?  A  Well, we took our supplies in with pack horses. We'd  have -- I think we'd have six to eight pack horses, and  we would take average about 12, 15 miles a day with the  horses. We had a fellow by the name of Peter B.  Robinson.  He was an old packer, a native Indian packer  from the Yukon Telegraph days when it was running, and  he would go  In with us and  bring the horses  out and we'd  stay in.  Then in the spring we'd snowshoe out.  Q   Where did you get your supplies?  A  We bought our supplies in Smithers and in Hazelton.  Q   Now, could you use some water?  A  Yes, I could.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED  PURSUANT TO A BRIEF RECESS)  MR. RUSH: I may  have some objections  to some  of the testimony  and some of the documents, and I don't want you to take  my silence  as meaning that  this is a consent  in any form  to the -- my agreeing that this evidence should be  admitted for the purposes of trial. I do intend to  raise certain  of the objections  during  the course of the  examination, not for obviously for the purpose of  resolving  any of them but  for the purpose  of alluding to  the fact that I have objections to certain of the  material and the evidence that is going in.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Shall we then leave both the issue of  objections to examination and objections to  cross-examination as having been made?  I mean you can  raise them as you wish and we'll resolve it at trial.  MR. RUSH: M'hm.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Okay, I think we were at  the Yukon Telegraph Line, and  I  was asking you about how you got in, and you've told me  about the pack horses and buying your supplies in  Smithers and  Hazelton.   I think you might  have mentioned  it but I might have missed it, how long were you in - -  how long would you go in for, how many months?  A  Well, we'd start out in September, leave Hazelton,  leaving in September, on the 1st of September, which 6  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  Would give us some time to get our things lined up in  there, and then it just depend, if we want to stay for  the beaver trapping,  have to stay on to March and April. Q  Okay.  What animals were you trapping for?  A  Well, our best, biggest, the money makers were Fisher  and Martin, a few mink and in the spring we could get a  few beaver, but we don't --we weren't that interested  in staying that long all the time, we'd trap a few  beaver at the first of the cease and and then go on out. Q  And then?  A  Go on out, but we used to - - at a slack time in the  period of time that the fur doesn't move very much,  so  that odd time we would snowshoe out to Hazelton and pick  up some supplies if we were short and go back in again. Q You  mention there were slack times.  Can you identify  more precisely what you mean?  A   There  was times fur wasn't moving  very much.  That  would  be sometimes after heavy snows and very cold weather  that fur wasn't moving very much and it would be there  when you came back anyways .  Q   Can you tell me where on the line did you trap?  A  Pardon?  Well, from, on the Telegraph Line between 3rd  cabin and 6th cabin.  I trapped from 3rd to 4th, and  side roads -- sidelines up different creeks; and Gelley  went north up as far as 6th really, but he didn't do  much trapping up around the 6th cabin during the  winter.  It was more of a spring line, you see, but he  trapped from 4th to 5th and the odd trip up into 6th.  Q   In terms of distance, what --  A   Pardon.  Q    In terms  Of jUst distance  Or mileage  or kilometres  what  distance would we be talking about between 3rd and 6th  cabin?  A   Somewhere around a hundred miles,  I guess, 90 to a  hundred miles. That's the way the trail went.  Q   When you were trapping, did you see other trappers?  A  Only the ones that used the Telegraph Line for access  someone further north. Some went up Canyon Creek and we  used to meet some there.  There was Indian -- Jimmie  Blackwater was an Indian trapper, he used to trap, go up  out from Blackwater somewhere,  I don't remember exactly  where he trapped but he trapped in there, around that  area.  Q   Okay.  North --  A   Old Moses Stevens, he had a trapline  just below,  a piece  below 3rd cabin, around Kildala (phonetic), but he  didn't do much trapping. 7  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  Q   When you say he didn't do much trapping what do you  mean?  A  He was an old man.  Q   You would see him occasionally or --  A Oh, we used to always see him when we were going in and  Out. He would -- the dog would hear us go by. He would jive  down over the hill but the dog would hear us,  specially when we went with the horses, and he would  always come up and we'd chew the fat a bit, used to  talk.  Q   And did you see a person by the name of Axel Larsen  (phonetic)?  A   Yes, I know Axel Larsen well.  Q   Do you know where he trapped?  A  Axel and Miller, they went --  Q   Is that Ken Miller?  A Yeah, Ken Miller, they were up in there because I had to  help them out some time, but where they actually trapped    I can't  remember for some reason.  I'm sorry.  Q   Not to worry?  A   They were going out one time, and they-- for more  supplies, In cold weather and froze their feet, their  toes, and they wanted to stay at 3rd cabin until they  got well,  and I said,  "No you can't,  you can't afford  to  stay here because if you stay here you'll get gangrene.  You've  got to get out."  So I went  out halfway with  them,  and they finally made it out. They were in hospital for    some  time with treatment for their hands and feet.  Q   Do you recall a Guss Hildebrandt?  A   M'hm.  Q   Did you see him when you were up trapping?  A   Oh, I saw him, yes.  Q  Do you recall where he trapped?  A   Oh, he was up over the, over the -- I'll think of the  name of the mountain.  He went up over the --he left  the Yukon Telegraph at the Damdochaks lake.  Q   Is that D-a-m-d-o-c-h-a-k-s?  A   But anyway, and he went over into the upper reaches of  the Skeena.   He went  there alone,  he just had a big  dog,  packed his stuff in,  He came out one time in the winter    and  I went out to Hazelton with him.  He had one big dog    that would  pull him and all his load.  Q   Before you went trapping, up on the Yukon Telegraph  Line, would you ask anyone's permission to go up there?  A   Pardon?  Q WOUld you ask anyone's permission to go trapping on your  line? 8  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  A  No, no. We had it registered to us and it was -- in  those days that's all we had to do.  Q   Did  -- do you know  if Lou Gelley would have  asked anyone  for permission to go?  A   I don't think so, at least -- no.  Q   Did you ever encounter any objections to your trapping  there?  A   I don't remember any objections to it from anybody.  Q   After you stopped trapping the line --  A   M'hm.  Q   -- what did you do, do you recall?  A  Well, let's see, what the heck did I do?  Q   We're at the end -- in the 1930' s,  I think. Can you  recall  the time  between traping  the Yukon Telegraph  Line  and joining up in the war?  A   I went to work for Consolidated Mining and Smelting at  that time. They wanted a man that could -- they were  building a road to go up into that Redwood mine.  That  was  Tongston  (phonetic) property.   I worked  up there for  awhile, helped them build the road for awhile, then I  drove truck for them. From there they transferred me  down to Trail, and I went to Trail until I quit there  and joined the army.  Q   Now, you've told me that Lou Gelley trapped the Yukon  line after you did?  A  After the war.  Q   After the War?  A  After the war.  Q   Do you know if that line was ever sold?  MR. RUSH:   You'd better  ask how he  would know something  like  that .  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   SOrry.  I thought it was established.  A   I understand Gelley and Marty Allen was a partner with  Lou  on that line  after they  came back from  the war, and  they trapped it a year or two, and then Lou Gelley  joined the Department of Fisheries, too, and they sold  the line to the Department of IndianAf fairs.  They got    some  cash, I don't know how much they got.  Not very  much,  anyway, and  they decided  that there was  -- I still  had some claims and I got a little bit of cash out of  it.  I don't know if it was $500 or a few hundred  dollars,  I don't know.  Q   Now, then you joined the Canadian army?  A   Yes, when I was in Trail I did.  Q   Do you remember when that was?  A  Oh, I guess it would be about 44. Wave to go and get my 9  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  Papers. The war was -- at the time I had my training  and whatnot  and got over  to England, the  invasion across  the channel invasion was on.  I wasn't there to go.  I  didn't go there. That's whenever that was, that's when  I got to England.  Q   Now, When you came back to Canada?  A  M'hm.  Q   After the War --  A  Yes.  Q    -- was over,  you joined the  Department of  Fisheries;  is  that the first thing you did?  A  Well, I hired on as a guardian or patrolman with the  Department of Fisheries. Maybe heard of him, Jay  MacDonnell (phonetic).  He was the old Fisheries  officer, and he decided that I'd make a good -- I knew  the bush and that, and I might like it, and so I was  still in the  army on my month's  leave, and  so I went  and  worked with him for a month, and I enjoyed it.  Q   Now, what area were you in?  A   In the, out of Smithers, Smithers to the headwaters of  the Bulkely and  down to Moricetown,  part-time,  you know,  just back and forth. I didn't have any, you know, place    to sit  on. I just inspected streams and whatnot along  that line there.  Q   And what were your duties as a guardian?  A  Well, to check the salmon streams, check if there was  any, you know, what fishing was going on and report on  numbers of fish, eh, the numbers of fish.  Q   Was that one of your major concerns, the numbers of  fish?  A  Well, it was -- if you didn't -- you have to know the  number of fish because you can't -- what you have to  know what you got to put in regulations but that was  none of my affair, I was just a guardian at that time.  I used to report to J. Roy MacDonnell and he'd tell me  what to do  from here to there.   I worked  that month, and  then I, as I say, I went back and went down and got my  discharge.  Q   Okay. While you were a guardian, was there a guardian  stationed at Moricetown?  A  Yes.  Q   Was that One Of your areas?  A  Well, I used to go down there once in awhile, yes.  Q  Was there another guardian as well as you?  A   There was one at Moricetown.  He lived in a cabin right  at the falls  where he could  watch the fish  there all the  time. 10  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  Q   Do you recall who that was at that time?  A   It may come back to me.  Q   If it comes back to you, you can tell us?  A  Yes.  Q   While you were a guardian, was it part of your job to  issue permits for fishing?  A   Oh. yes  but as far as  that goes, the  Bulkely -- where  I  went on the north end of the Bulkely up to Manson Lake  where the Sockeye salmon was spawning,  there was hardly  any -- really not much Indian fishing going on there.  The main  Indian fishing  was down at,  on the Bulkely  was  at Moricetown and a little bit of short nets here and  there along the river, but up in that -- that Bulkely  River  where I'm talking  about, from  Houston up, was  very  small, eh. From where the Morice River comes in.  From    there  on Bulkely is a small little river. You could  wade across it anywhere.  Q    Do you  recall where you  went in 1947?   Is that when  you  went to open a new office in Terrace?  A   Yes,  I had been to a course in Vancouver, Fishery  Officer's course, and then when it was finished I went  -- there had been no office in Terrace up to that time  and they decided, the Department decided that there  should be an officer there so I went there.  Q   And did you, in going to start that office in Terrace,  did you have a title or a name that you --a position  that you fulfilled with Fisheries?  A  A Fishery Officer.  Q   I'm jUst going to ask you to look at document number,  our number 4218?  MR. RUSH:  You're going to have to give me time to look at  these.  4218. You're going to go through them in  sequence.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, I'm going to try.  Just go off the record just for a moment.  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q Mr. Giraud, you're looking at document number 4218?  A Yes.  Q And that's headed Up Annual Report 1948?  A Yes.  Q "Terrace", and how do you say that next word?  A Pardon?  Q How do you say the next word?  A Terrace-Lakelse, L-a-k-e-1-s-e. 11  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  Q   District number two?  A  Lakelse Lake.  Q   Okay.  If you go to the  third page of  this document,  and  you look at the bottom,  is that your signature?  A   Yes, that's my signature.  Q  And you were the Fisheries Inspector?  A  Yes.  Q   In 1948?  A   Fishery Inspector, Fishery Officer.  Q   For the Terrace-Lakelse  district number two?  A   That's right.  Q   And Was it part of your job to put together an annual  report?  A   That's right.  Q   And this is the annual report for 1948?  A   That's right.  Q   And you were the author of it?  A   I was.  Q   Just looking at the very top of that first page, if you  would read it out to us, but first I want to ask you,  does that describe  the  geographical area  covered by that  district?  A  Well, I'll read it out and then we can,  if you  look  "The Terrace-Lakelse district was  increased this year to take in the area  along the Skeena river from Cedarvale to  the headwaters."  That is of the Skeena.  "This includes Bulkely up to Hagwilget  Canyon, the Kispiox river system and all  smaller streams entering the Skeena."  And that's the Kispiox river system and all smaller  streams entering the Skeena?  Bulkely river up to the Hagwilget Canyon.  Previous to  that my area only went to Cedarvale but then it was  increased on up to there.  And that is a description,  is it, of the district of  which you were then - -  Yes, the Terrace-Lakelse  area increased to take in this  new area so that meant that -- I took in the, more of  the inland.  Okay. Let me ask you about some of the areas that might 12  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  have been  included,  The  Fisheries office  in Terrace was  responsible for that area?  A  Yes.  Q   Is that correct?  A   That's right.  Q   Okay. And that included the Kispiox river?  A  After this, yeah. It wasn't at first but it is now,  yes.  Q   And is it the Slangish (phonetic) ?  A   Slangish, yeah.  Q   Kitwanga river?  A   Kitwanga river.  Q   The COpper river?  A   The Copper river, yeah.  Q   And the Bulkely river at Hagwilget?  A  Up to Hagwilget but not any further,  Q   Okay?  A   It also went  -- you're not  into this but  it went west  to  take in the Gitnadoix river.  Q   Okay, Gitnadoix, G-i-t-n-a-d-O-i-x?  A   Gitnadoix.  Q  Now, as Fisheries Inspector over that area, can you  describe for us what your duties were?  A  Well --  Q   Maybe I can help you by indicating topics and you can  tell me if that was included.  Was part of your job to  issue food fish licences to Indian fishermen?  A  Yes, it was.  Q  And maybe we could just refer to a couple of documents  in that respect,  5694 and 1894, and I'll just pause  there so we can all get them.  Do you want to have a  look -- first look at 5694.  It's headed up Indian  fishing permits issued Terrace-Lakelse area 1950?  A   That's right.  Q   And On the Second page, is that your signature?  A   That's right.  Q   And then if We just look at 1894, it Says names of  native fishermen who are active this season and name of  place?  A  M'hm.  Q  And that's three pages?  MR. RUSH: Sorry, what are you looking at now?  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  18 94.  Q   It's dated OCtOber 22, 1958?  A  M'hm.  Q   WOUld you look at the bottom of that. It's not very  clear. Do you recognize that signature, looks like 13  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  Robert L. somebody.  Maybe we can turn up the original  so we  can read the  signature.  Were  you still  Fisheries  Inspector or were you still involved in this area in  1958?  A  Yes, I think I must have been.  Q   Okay.  Just -- oh, can you read it?  MR. RUSH:  I would like to see it.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's not much better.  A   I know where he jived but I can't think of that name.  Q   I think it will come to you.  I don't know if you can  read this any better.  It's just very slightly clearer.    You  might be able to read it. No, well, if it comes to    you we'll  come back?  A   It's a blank now, I'm sorry.  Q    That's  all right.   We'll come  back and try and  identify  it.  Let's just look at 5694 for the moment then?  A   5694?  Q   It's this one. Now. what does this list represent?  A  That lists the -- the people that were issued fishing  permits  and the place  that --  the place where  they were  from, Lake Hagwilget, Kispiox, Hazelton.  These are the    places,  eh.  Q   And Was it part of  your job to --  you've told us it was  part of your job to issue permits to Indian fishermen?  A  Yes, I issued these.  Q   And are these the Indian fishermen in 1950 to whom --  are all of these Indian fishermen to whom you issued  permits in 1950?  A   I imagine that is.  The whole area is covered there  anyway.  Q   And did you make up lists --  MR. RUSH:  Sorry was your question are these all the Indian  fishing permits that were issued in 1950?  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  That was meant to be my question, yes.  MR. RUSH:  Okay.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q Was it part of your job to make up -- were you to keep a  record of all of the permits which you issued?  A Well, yes, the Department wanted to -- wanted a list of  the number of permits you issued and who to, and and it was  so done.  Q   And this is the list as best you recall?  A   Pardon?  Q   And this is your list,  for 1950?  A   It's got my signature on it so --  Q   Do you recall if there were any conditions on the  permits? 14  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  A   Well, there was close times were put in.  Q   Is that the same as a closure?  A    A close.   They didn't fish the week through.   There were  closures put in, usually for the weekend.  Probably some     days  you might,  depend on the fish supply,  you might --      it might  be shut off at Thursday siR o'clock or some  nights we  go to Friday at  six o'clock, but  that was left  up to the Fishery Officer's judgment to do what the size     of  the runs were.  If they were good supply or less than      good  supply.  Q   And What Was your authority?  A   Pardon?  Q   What Was the authority that you were under to specify  the closure periods?  Well, it was under the Fisheries Act.  Q    And were there conditions as to place for those permits? A  Yes, there was conditions.  Q    Do you recall anything more about what would it specify? A  Well, it would specify where the fishing place was.  It     would  be written on the permit the days fishing and the     place, the  time they had to come out of the water, the  time they had to be set.  show you a document,  it's 1838?  moment, please?  why that came about if that's your next  Q  I'm going to  MR.  RUSH: Just a  A  I'm not sure  question.  MS.  KOENIGSBERG:  Q  No, it isn't.  this document  A  Oh, I'm sure  My first question is, did you receive  from Mr. Whitmore?  I did, yes.   I can't remember getting it at  the time but I'm sure I must have.  Q   I want you to look at it actually and let's just talk  about it for  a second.  Can  you just tell  us what it  is  that that letter is directing you to do?  A   I'll read it out here:  "It's not the intention at this time  to alter in any way the procedures followed  by you over the past in issuing Indian permits  in this subdistrict.  Hence the purpose of  this letter is merely to authorize you to  continue to issue Indian Permits in the  above described subdistrict fixing the area  in which such salmon may be taken,  the means  by which they may be caught, and the time  such permission should be operative as you  have done in the past and as set out in your 15  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  report mentioned above."  Q     Did you issue  permits with  those types of  conditions on  them?  A   Yes.  Q   And did you continue to do so after you received this  letter?  A   That's right, that's right.  Q   Okay. Maybe we could mark this letter as an exhibit,  the first exhibit?  MR. RUSH: I just want to point out this document makes  reference to the  report of  March 17th, and  I would like  a copy of it. That's the one I mentioned to you at the  beginning.  MR. WOLF: That appears to be document 1833.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm getting to it.  (EXHIBIT 1: Letter, document 1838)  MS. KOENIGSBERG: And I'd like to go back and mark as the  next exhibit, the list of permits for 1950, which is  document number 5694, if that can be Exhibit number 2.  (EXHIBIT 2: Document 5694)  A   That's Bennett, Bob Bennett.  MS .  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   I'm going to ask you a few more questions about this  then so we can identify it.  You keep looking at it.  You've identified  on document  18 94 that the  signature is  that of Robert Bennett?  A   Yes.  Q   Was it Robert L Bennett?  A   I don't know.  I just called him Bob. It looked like  Robert L, I would imagine.  Q   And can you tell --  A   Worked for me for a few years.  Q   And what was his job?  A   He was a guardian.  Q    And was it part of his job to make up a list of permits? A  Yes.  Q   And is this One Of the --  A   That's one of the lists.  Q   -- lists that he would have made up? Would he submit  them to you?  A    He would submit  them to me  and I would submit  them on to  Vancouver . They were issued by Bob Bennett. 16  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  Q   Just looking at the list, our number 1894, it's for  1958, is that correct?  A  '58, yes.  Q   And would  there have been more than one  list for 1958  or  would there - -  A  Well, this is just the -- this is the list in the  immediate Hazelton-Hagwilget area. He was guardian and  he looked after that for me.  He had a bit of a car,  used to chug around from this place to that place.  Q   Okay. And this list shows a permit number?  A   M'hm.  Q   The name - -  A  M'hm.  Q  --of the permit holder,  is that?  A  Yes.  Q   If we look at the first one, it's 1322 is the permit  number?  A   Yes.  Q   And Tommy Dane is the name of the permit holder?  A  Yes.  Q   His home is listed as Hazelton?  A   That's right.  Q   And then it Says, "Fishing place Four Mile Canyon"?  A   That's right.  Q   What WOUld that mean?  A  That would mean that's the place that he had for his --    had  his fishing place set up.  Q   And WOUld the permit be for that fishing at that  particular place?  A   That's right.  MS. KOENIGSBERG: Can we then mark 1894 as Exhibit No. 3?  (EXHIBIT 3: Document 1894)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Okay. Now,  talking about these permits still, Mr.  Giraud, you've told us that there might be a condition  on closure, there would be a condition with regard to  place or an area described for that permit.  What about  the method of fishing, would that be involved in the  permit?  A   It could be.  There was  some -- at Hagwilget  there was  a  bit of dipnetting and gaffing at Hagwilget, but the main    Skeena  river, that was all nets, set nets, tied to shore    and anchored  out.  Q   Would it be your concern on behalf of Fisheries to make  rules as to the method of fishing that could be used? 17  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in Chief  A    Well,  the Hagwilget  Canyon  they couldn't  use nets there  unless you call a little rag that you could probably put     down,  so they used gas there and it was quite wasteful.     We tried  to introduce dipnets there with very little  success but that's beside the point.  The Skeena. it  was -- the main Skeena up to Kispiox  and beyond,  was all  set nets, and I would issue the permit for a set net at     a certain  place.  They also on that permit would issue     the number of  days, the times that they could fish.  Q   Were there any limits put on the number of fish that  could be caught?  A    Not --  the only limit we had was the  close periods,  eh.  The closed periods were limited to a certain extent but     there  was no --  Q   Okay.  I ' d like you to look at document number 1833  next. This document is dated March 17, 1956, and looks  to be a   letter report, is that  a fair  description,  and  if you look at page 2, are you the author of this  letter?  A   Yes, I am.  Q   And is it a report to Mr. Reade?  A   G. S. Reade, yes.  He was the supervisor of Prince  Rupert.  Q   Was he your superior?  A   Yes, that's right.  Q   And it Was part of your duty to report to him?  A      Well, my  reports went  through  him to  the supervise  chief supervisor in Vancouver.  Q   Okay.  Now, down at the last paragraph on the first  page, are you there dealing with the conditions or  regulations in relation to numbers of fish that are  caught?  A   This last?  I got to read this over.  Q   Okay, why don' t you do that?  A Yeah, what did you want to ask me about that?  Q What Was your concern in terms of numbers of fish that  were caught?  A Well, the concern was that some people, it has happened  that people would -- has found the odd time that they would  keep on fishing; it didn't matter how many fish they had,  sometimes they couldn't look after them,  that's all.  Q   Okay. Were you concerned, or was it your concern if the  Indians were selling the fish?  A   Oh, definitely it was a concern.  Q   In this report you seem to be reporting that you weren't  concerned with the number of fish that the Indians would 18  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  catch for themselves, your only concern was if they  might be selling them?  A     Selling them  or wasting them.   There has  been instances  of the people did close -- did clean their fish on the  river bank close to where their net was and  sometimes  they'd bring their  fish and put  them on a wire  and leave them in the water so they wouldn't dry out.  There was times I have found, I can't put the instances  out, that the fish on those wires hadn't been used, they were  rotted.  Something might have happened that they  couldn't get back to them or something, but still, I  figured that  fish that were  wasted that  way weren't for  food. They were originally for food but they didn' t end     up for  food,  if you get my point.  Q   So your concerns  then were  in terms of wastage  to ensure  that the permits were utilized for food fishing?  A   That's right.  Q   Okay. Now, when you issued the permits and went out on  patrols, did you encounter any opposition from the  Indian fishermen who were getting the permits to the  permits themselves?  A   Oh, a little  grumbling here  and there but  nothing that I  could say -- no down right hostility. Might have been  the odd case but that wasn't -- they were glad to get  their permits.   They knew  the law was set,  that they had  to have permits, and they wanted them, you know, they  wanted to get them.  Q   Was it your -- would you tell us your experience with  the Indian  fisherman's compliance  with the  conditions on  the permits?  A  Well, in general it was pretty good but there was odd  instances where there was, as I say, wastage, odd  instances nets  were left in  the river, but  that was the  only thing, complaints that I ever had,  if they waste  fish.  Q   Okay. How are you doing?  Would you like to have a  little bit of a break and then we'll go to lunchtime?  A  Well, it's okay with me.  If you want to go ahead.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED  PURSUANT TO A BRIEF RECESS)  MS. KOENIGSBERG: Before we go any further, maybe I'll go  back and mark  the first document  that I  put to you which  was your annual report of 1948 and it's our document  number 4218.  I'd just like to mark that as the next  exhibit so that we have it marked. 19  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  (EXHIBIT 4: Document 4218)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q    Now,  We've talked about  the Conditions  that Were  On the  licences, the types of conditions on the licences.  heat,  if anything,  did you put  in place as the Fisheries  Inspector,  to enforce those conditions?  A   Could you clarify that for me?  Q   Yes.  Let me ask you if you would,  for instance, post  the notices of information relating to conditions?  A  The notices, public notices, were posted in all the  villages,  the native  villages,  like Glen Vowel,  Kispiox,  Wichgar (phonetic), all these -- and around Hazelton.  Q    Let's  just look at  document number  1660.  Okay.  have you  had a brief look at document 1660?  Are you the author  of that letter to Mr. Reade?  A   That's right.  Q   And are you the author of the enclosures which are the  two pages which are attached to 1660?  A  Well,  that would just -- something I thought we should  put in to clarify some of the regulations that were  already in force.  Q    I'm  sorry, did you  answer my question  as to whether  you  were the author of this letter?  A   I was the author of this letter and I -- these were my  submissions with this letter.  Q   Okay.  This is a letter dated March 24, 1949,  from you  to Mr. Reade, the supervisor of Fisheries?  A   That's right.  Q   And the two enclosures We're referring to are -- could  they be called notices?  A   That's right.  Q   And What are they notices of?  A       "An Indian may at any time, with  the permission of the chief supervisor,  catch salmon to be used for food for himself  and his family but for no other purpose.  Q  A  Any person buying or accepting any fish --  Is that "any salmon"?  " ... any salmon or portion of any salmon  from an Indian, except salmon legally caught,  under a commercial fishing licence, is guilty  of an offence against (this Act) the Fisheries  Act. 20  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  The taking of salmon, by other than  Indians, by jigging, gaffing, or by any other  means than by angling is prohibited."  A description of the term Jigging:  "-Jigging'  shall mean catching or attempt  to catch a fish by impaling it on a hook through  any part of its body,  instead of inducing the  fish to take the hook in its mouth as in angling."  Q   Then you provide at the bottom of that --  A   Pardon?  Q   At the bottom Of that, jUst to Complete it?  A  "Violation should be reported to --  Fisheries Inspector at --"  this place, the nearest Fishery Officer.  Q   So were these --  A   That was sent in to Gordon Reade to -- for his opinion  whether we would change these things.  Q   And  is the second one  there that's  headed up "Department  of Fisheries, Notice to Whites and Indians," is that  just another suggestion as to a notice?  A   Yeah,  that's right.  Q  Okay, and did you send that one to Mr. Reade as well?  A   Pardon?  Q  Did you send that one to Mr. Reade as well?  A   That's right.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Why don't we, before I forget, mark that as  the next exhibit?  (EXHIBIT 5: Document 1833)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And if I can also mark document number  1833, which we talked about before,  so if we could mark  1833 as Exhibit 5, and 1660 as Exhibit 6.  (EXHIBIT 6: Document 1660)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Were notices SUCh as the Ones that you have submitted,  that you submitted to Mr. Reade with document 1660, were  they posted?  A  Yes, that type of a notice was posted, yes. 21  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  Q  And Where Were they posted?  A   Well,  they were posted on all  Indian reserves  throughout  the area, post offices In the area, the odd places I  guess  where there  was any --  where -- any  heavy fishing,  where quite a few people would see it.  Q   Okay.  And --  A   Other places,  I don't know.  Q    Let's  have a look  at document  number 1750.   You'll need  to look at the first page, and that's an annual report  for 1950 for your district?  A   That's right, yes.  Q  And WOUld you turn to the last page, page 4. Is that  your signature?  A   It is.  Q   And you were the author of this document?  A   I was.  Q   Before I forget, let's mark that as the next exhibit.  (EXHIBIT 7: Document 1?50)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   WOUld you turn to page 3 at the top of the page. You  refer there to posters?  A   Pardon?  Q   You refer there to posters?  MR. RUSH:  Where's this?  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm sorry, top of page 3, first paragraph,  under violations.  A  Yes.  "    and close watch kept on fishing  spots to prevent infractions. Posters were  put up in conspicuous places.  Regulations  were discussed with fishermen met in the course  of patrols."  Is that the one you're looking at?  Q   Yes.   Are they  the posters you're  referring  to, the kind  of posters that you were submitting to Mr. Reade in  Exhibit No. 6?  A   Yes.  Q   And maybe we could look at document number 4219, and  that's an annual report for 1952?  A   Yes.  Q  And ie We look at page 3 at the bottom?  A   Right.  Q   Is that your signature?  A   It is. 22  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  Q   And you're the author of this document?  A   I am.  Q   And COUld We mark that as the next exhibit?  (EXHIBIT 8: Document 4219)  MS .  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   If We turn to page 2, we look under the heading  "violations", would you just read that to yourself for a  moment ?  A  "No violations were found in fishing  or logging operations this year and no charges  were laid. The area was patrolled as often as  possible by inspector and Guardian.  Posters  were put up and regulations discussed with  fishermen and residents in course of patrols"  Q   Okay and again are those the kind of posters that we  referred to in Exhibit 6?  A     Well, we always had  a Fishery public  notice,  opinion of  public notice. Whether this is a change that changed to     the  one that I asked for the change or not, whether it  come through by this time I can't remember now.  Q   Okay, would you change what the -- the content of the  posters from time to time with the regulations or  whatever was happening?  A   Oh, not necessarily change the reading of them, but  could change what we put on them.  Q     Yes.  I was asking  you about  enforcement of  regulations,  and we've talked about the posting of notices.  Were  there other things  that you did  in attempting  to enforce  regulations?  A   Well, I found that the main, the main, one of the best  ways to enforce regulations was to keep a good -- make  many visits to the area, get around as often as you  could to talk to people  here  and there that  you met, and  to ask questions here and there, that was one of the  great ways that I - -  Q   WOuld you call that patrolling?  A    That would be patrolling,  yes,  that definitely  would be  patrolling.   Fishery   Officer's   job and guardian   job were  mostly patrol.  Q   Would you look at exhibit -- I mean at document number  1674?  A   Yes.  Q   And that is an annual report for 1949?  A   Looks like it, yes.  Q   And if you look at page 3, is that your signature? 23  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  A   Yes, it is.  Q   And you're the author of this report?  A   I am.  Q   If you look at page 1, the second last paragraph, and  you can read that to yourself, Mr. Giraud?  A  Yes.  Q   Is that your report in 194 9 that the kind of thing you  were just telling us about the patrolling?  A   That's right.  Q   And you're reporting what went on in 1949 with regard to  patrolling?  A   That's right.  Q   How did Fisheries Staff the patrols? Who was it that  was responsible for patrolling?  A  Well the officer in charge of the district was  responsible for the patrols.  If he was one man in the  district that  was -- he also  had guardians  and patrolmen  that carried on patrol but he was the Fishery Officer  was responsible.  Q    And can you  just describe briefly,  if we haven't  already  covered it, what the duties were of the guardians and  the patrolmen in carrying out their patrols?  A   Well, the guardians  and patrolmen,  they were  -- the same  sort of chores as a Fishery Officer but they weren't so  well paid.  That's the truth.  They were seasonal  employees, and  they were put  on during the  salmon season  and responsible to the Fishery Officer, and they carried    out  his order for him.  Q   Now, can you think of any other enforcement measures or  supervision that you carried out for Fisheries with  regard to the enforcement of regulations?  A  Well, I guess there were times the Fishery Officer  visited different  organizations  and discussed,  you know,  Fisheries regulations and -- with them. I remember, I  don't know if I've got any paper anywhere, but I  remember attending Rod and Gun Club meetings and stuff  like that and talking about salmon fishing,  Indian  fishing, probably.  Q   Were river patrols something different than what you've  already described?  A  River patrols were the regular deal. They were one way  of getting around.  It didn't happen every day but once  in awhile a boat was put in the water at Terrace and  driven up to  Hazelton, eh, and  back, just  to check every  part. Doing it on foot or by car you don't see all the  river and so you made patrols by boat.  Q   Did you patrol by boat Indian fishing sites? 24  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  A Oh, yes. We patrolled the whole river. You passed all  the Indian fishing sites and saw what was going on. It wasn't  a laid down patrol. You couldn't do it every day  but once in awhile you jumped in the boat to see how  things were going.  Q   And What Was it you were looking for?  A   Oh, abandoned nets. You knew roughly what -- you knew  where all the licenced nets were, and you check up on  licence nets  and sometimes  they would be  abandoned, you  had to pull them out, and would try to find out who they     were.  Never did find out.  Q   You want to have a look at document number 1674?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay. You've identified it.  If we look at under  "Guardians" over on page 2?  A   Yes.  Q   And do you want to just read that to yourself for a  moment ?  A   Yeah.  Q   When We have talked about patrolling for Indian -- the  Indian sites, is that a reference to that?  A   Pardon?  Q   We were talking about patrolling the Indian fishing  sites?  A   Yes.  Q   Is that a reference to that?  A   That would be a reference to it. A guardian was a  part-time Fishery Officer, really.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Can we mark 1674 as the next exhibit?  (EXHIBIT 9: Document 1674)  MS .  KOENIGSBERG:  Q    Now, in the course  of your time  in the Terrace  district,  did you come across Indians inquiring about fishing in  the wintertime?  A   Yes.  Q   I'd like you to look at document 1798 and 1799, okay,  and you are the author of the letter which is 1798?  A   Yes.  Q   And that's to your -- the supervisor in Prince Rupert,  Mr. Reade?  A   That's right.  Q    And then it jUst  quickly if we  look at 179 9,  is that his  response to your letter? It's from Mr. Reade to you?  A   Wait 'til I make sure.  Q   Okay. 25  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  A  Yeah, it is.  Q   Did you receive the letter from Mr. Reade to you?  A   I must have, yes.  Q   Okay.  Can we mark as the next two exhibits document  1798 and 1799, and then I'm just going to ask you to  tell us what that was about?  A   Pardon?  Q   I'm going to ask you to tell us about the content of  these letters as soon we mark them.  (EXHIBIT 10: Document 17 98)  (EXHIBIT 11: Document 17 99)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q  And maybe just to complete that, if we look at document  number 1851, okay, let's have you identify that one.  You're the author of that letter?  A  Yes, I wrote that letter.  Q   It was in -- and it's to Mr. Reade?  A  To Mr. Reade, yes. Mr. Gordon Reade.  Q   Okay, and just before I ask you about the content, the  first -- maybe we could mark 1851 as the next exhibit  and that will be Exhibit No. 12.  (EXHIBIT 12 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Document 1851)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Okay,  looking at 1?98 and 1?99, the dates of those are  April Z, 1953, and the response is April 8, 1953?  A   Yes.  Q   Can you tell us what you recall of the content of those  letters, what was that about, that correspondence?  A   There was some bit of a, oh, concern with the Indians,  the game department was to stop them from taking  Steelhead, eh, and specially taking Steelhead through  the ice, and I know that that had been the -- I knew  that that had been their -- they had done this for as  long as I could remember, and I don't think that -- I  say here I was in sympathy with the Indians.  Q   And did you - - and then  - - so you wrote  to Mr. Reade,  I  take it, telling him you thought they should be able to  fish through the ice for Steelhead?  A   Pardon?  Q  You Wrote to Mr. Reade?  A  This was the letter to Mr. Reade, the first one.  Q    And you're  telling him that  you think  the Indians should  be able to fish through the ice for Steelhead?  A   That's right, yes. 26  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  Q   And then Mr.  Reade wrote yOu?  A   Yes.  Q  And What Was  that abOUt,  responding  A   Pardon?  Q  Mr. Reade re  sponded to - - wrote you  A   That's right.  Q  And What Was  he telling you?  A  He said:  to you?  a letter back?  "It is true the Steelhead are not  mentioned in the above-mentioned  subsection,  but subsection 15 of Section 15 on the  same subject envisages the catching of  steelhead by Indians for food purposes,  and steelhead are definitely named.  Further, steelhead are classed as  salmon in the industry, and 72?,800 lbs.  Were taken last year by the industry in  Region 2 . "  Q   Was Mr. Reade agreeing with you?  A   Pardon?  Q   Mr. Reade Was in agreement with you?  A   That's right, he was in agreement with me on that.  Q   Did you issue permits for the taking of Steelhead in the  winter, do you recall?  A     I don't remember  issuing any  permits during  the winter.  If I did it's kind of slipped my memory.  I don't know  why, or possibly this was -- this was the letter that  Gordon Reade agreed with me.  Q   Then I notice five years later in 1957,  if we look at  Exhibit 12,  1851?  A   Yes.  Q   The issue Seems to have COme Up again?  A   Yeah.  Q   You want to just have a quick look at that letter?  A   M'hm. Yes.  Q   Okay, Looking particularly at paragraph 4 in 1851,  document numbered 1851?  A   Yeah.  Q   You Were reporting to Mr. Reade on your calculation of  the Steelhead catch for the last eight years?  A   That's right, yes.  Q     And Can you  tell us what --  do you recall,  upon reading  this, what had resulted, what happened with the  Steelhead? 27  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  A   You mean any changes or --?  Q   Yes.  A  "Unless I have definite instructions  from you I will continue to issue the  Indian Permits when they are asked for by  the Indians of this District."  That ' s all. I don't remember that there was any  change on that. Now,  it could be there was but if it is  it's  Q   It's slipped your mind?  A   Slipped my mind, yeah.  Q  Does it help you if we look at the last paragraph of  that letter to remember if any food permits were issued?  A  " Unless I have definite instructions  from you I will continue to issue the Indian  Permits when they are asked for by the Indians  of this District."  Well,  I didn't have any instructions not to.  Q   I'd like to move on to the topic of spawning.  Was it  part of your duties to conduct inspections of salmon  spawning grounds in your area?  A   It was.  Q   And did you do that?  A   I did.  Q   And did you do that yearly?  A   Yes. More than yearly. Some places were inspected  three or four times during the season, depending what  species of fish came and what was there, so more than  one inspection was carried out.  Q   Why did you do that?  Well, we wished to -- one had to find out what fish we  had on the spawning grounds.  If you had very few fish  on a spawning ground you wouldn't look for a big run in  the cycle year. If you had lots of fish on the spawning ground  you could look for a fairly good return. That's  the -- was the idea of it.  Q   Okay. Now, was it part of your function to report the  results of your inspections?  A   It was.  Q   And to whom were you to report it?  A    I reported  -- my reports went  to the district  supervisor  in Prince Rupert and forwarded on.  Q   Okay.  I'm going to ask you to look at a series of 28  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  documents.  They are 1644, 416, 1657,  1658, 446 and  165 -- 1674, which I think has already been marked.  Yes, it has, and it is Exhibit 9. Will you just have a quick  look at each of those documents, and in particular I want to  know, I'm going to ask you if you were the  author of each of those documents because I'd like you  to identify them?  A   I was the author of this document.  Q   The first one you told me is 1644?  A  Yes.  MR. RUSH: Why don't we mark them as he identifies them?  A  And this one.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  1644 could be Exhibit 13.  (EXHIBIT 13: Document 1644)  A   This one has my signature on it. It had to be --  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Hold it a second. We're going to mark it  as you identify them. The next one you've identified as  your document is 116 -- I'm sorry, 416. if that could be  Exhibit 14.  (EXHIBIT 14: Document 416)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Have you identified 1658 yet? You've identified 1657,  okay.  Could that be Exhibit 15?  (EXHIBIT 15: Document 1658)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q And 1658?  A That's mine.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  That could be Exhibit 16.  (EXHIBIT 16: Document 1658)  A And that is also my signature.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q Document 446?  A Yes, that's right.  Q I think you've identified that as your document?  A I do, yes.  Q That COUld be Exhibit 18 -- SOrry, 17.  (EXHIBIT 17: Document 446) 29  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   And you've  already identified  document  16?4 as yours  and  it is Exhibit 9?  A   Right.  Q  Okay.  Upon a perusal of each of these documents, are  these reports relating to spawning inspections either in  whole or in part?  A  This one -- it's marked already.  Q   It says 13?  A   That is a spawning inspection,  that's right. They all  are.  Q   They all are?  A  Yes.  Q   And did you submit each of these reports?  A   I did.  Q   Pursuant to your obligation to conduct spawning  inspections?  A   That's right.  Q   Why would the spawning inspection statistics or the  numbers that are indicated there collected?  A  Why?  Q   Why?  A   I think I explained before,  if you know what you're  seeding on a spawning ground, what we say, how many fish  you had on the spawning ground, if it was a small number in  the cycle you would look for a small return, but if  it was a medium or a large escapement you could look for  corresponding returns in the cycle year.  It didn't  always pan out that way.  Sometimes weather conditions  or whatnot worked against you, but that was one of the  better  gauges to figure  out what might  be coming, that's  what that was for.  Q   And at the same time, or in conjunction with gathering  statistics, did you conduct salmon migration, the route  inspections, or do you say "route"?  A  Well,  the fish only go one way up the river, and the  rivers where, you know, rivers -- streams that they used  to inspect it several times.  Q   Would you report the migrations, the actual where the  salmon were actually going on their migration?  A  Well, not necessarily, no, I don't remember, but if you  had a  bunch of salmon in  the Skeena  river, for instance,  you wouldn't know until they took off to their side  stream where they were going to, would you? I mean, if you  had a big run of fish you could still look for a  good escapement on the spawning grounds all over but you  couldn't necessarily be so because there could be a big 30  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  run going in and a small one --  Q    Were you concerned with any obstructions or blockages in  the stream with regard to salmon migration?  A   Oh, definitely.  Q     What did you do,  if anything,  to determine  if there was  any such problem?  A   Any obstructions were found, and the obstructions,  they'd tend to show up once in awhile up river by  damaged fish and dead fish in unusual numbers.  If you  had any idea that  something  was wrong you had  to go and  look for it until you found it.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Maybe this is a good time to break for  lunch. It's just five after twelve.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED  PURSUANT TO A LUNCHEON RECESS)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q Mr. Giraud, We Were talking as we broke for lunch about  removing stream blockages, and I'd like to refer you to four  documents.  I'm going to ask you to identify each  one. Okay. Document number 4221 looks to be another  annual report,  this time for 1954?  A   Yes, that was one of mine.  Q     And that is  one of yours, and  that is your  signature at  the last page?  A   That's right, yes.  Q     Okay.  And document  1770 is  the annual report  for 1951,  and you are the author of that?  A   I was the author of that. My signature, yes.  Q   And document 1863 is an annual report for 195? and you  were the author of that document?  A   I was the author of that one, yes.  Q   And document 182? is an annual report for 1955?  A   Yes, that is mine, my writing.  MR. RUSH:  Okay, just a minute now.  You moved out of your  sequence here.  1663 or is it 1863.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  1863.  Okay, we start with 4221.  MR. RUSH:   1770.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:   1770,  1863 and  1827.  Are you missing  one?  Is it 1863?  MR. RUSH:   Yes.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:   I  was missing it.   I'll loan  you this one,  if you like.  MR. RUSH:  Here it is. All right.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:   If  we could mark  then, beginning  with 4221,  mark it as the next exhibit.  I think we're at Exhibit 31  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  18, and then in sequence,  if we may, Madam Reporter,  1770 would be Exhibit 19.  (EXHIBIT 18: Document 4221)  MS.  KOENIGSBERG:  1863, Exhibit 20.  (EXHIBIT 19: Document 1770)  (EXHIBIT 20: Document 1863)  MS.  KOENIGSBERG: And 182?, Exhibit 21.  (EXHIBIT 21: Document 1827)  MS .  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Mr. Giraud, WOUld you review, beginning with 4221, the  section of the annual reports in each instance headed  "stream clearing", on page 3, okay?  A   Yes, go ahead.  Q   In each Of these annual reports you have a section  called "stream clearing"?  A   Yes.  Q   Why would you be reporting that in each one of the  annual reports?  A   Well, I imagine your supervisor wanted to know what  stream clearing was carried out.  That's the reason I  can see it.  They keep track of that.  Q   Why were you stream clearing?  A   To make passage for salmon.  Q   And if you have a look at each one of these annual  reports, under stream clearing?  A   M'hm.  Q    Am I Correct  that in each one you're  referring  to beaver  dams being a problem?  A   Not altogether, no. These might be only --  Q   I tell you what, maybe it would be easier if we just go  one at a time.  A   Are those the only ones you have?  Q   Okay.  Let's take --  A   We did a jot more than beaver dams.  Q   Let's talk about them. Beaver dams are mentioned as  being a problem?  A   Yes.  Q   Is that COrrect, and you would clear those up?  A   Yes.  Q   As you came across them? Were beaver dams an increasing 32  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  problem at certain periods?  A    Well,  it depends what  the prices  of fur were down well  nobody trapped them; didn't keep them down and they  increased  then, but  we say,  "Remove  beaver  dams."  We  even put a few sticks of dynamite  in and lifted a hole     in it  but that was where the fish were there but then     the fish could  go through higher up on the spawning  ground if they had to, and. as far as we knew, the  survival was successful there, but if they were held at  the dam  they just  didn't get  up to  spawn.   That's the  reason for clearing them.  Q   And --  A   Passage for fish.  Q   In the 1957 report, which is numbered 1863?  A   1863.  Oh, I got it underneath here.  Q   If you look at the Stream Clearing section?  A   Yes.  Q   It's referring to a beaver-dam problem there?  A   Yes.  Q   And for the reason that you've indicated?  A   Yes, that's right, as I say, I put in there, "Beaver are  increasing as trappers will not go after them due to low  fur prices."  Q    And if  you just look  over  at the annual  report  for'55,  which is 1827, have you got that one? There it is, in  front of you, on page 4 under "Stream Clearing"  A   Yes.  Q   --we see the same problem?  A   Yes, that's right.  The only reason that you move a  beaver  dam was to allow  passage  for  salmon.   A beaver  dam, depends how it's built.  Fish can try to jump and     get  tangled up in the sticks and brush.  Q    Now, you  told us that  there  were other  kinds  of stream  blockages  A   Right, yes.  Q    -- that you looked after.  Can you describe some of  those for us?  A   Well, lots of times you have a jam in the stream caused  by spring floods, a big log will get in and a small pile  up in it or form a complete blockage or as near to a  complete blockage and hold the fish up, and those have  to be removed, and if -- the Babine rock slide was  another instance of a big -- I don't know what caused it  but there was thousands of thousands of tons of rock  came off a cliff and blocked up the creek completely,  and that was a big project. It took two years to clean  it out perfectly. 33  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  Q   And who was responsible for cleaning that out?  A   Fish Culture Development Branch I think we call them,  but they were -- the engineers in charge were Fisheries  and they hired somebody.  It was a big job. It was  thousands of thousands of dollars. They had to build a  road in, in the first place, about a hundred miles.  They'd get heavy equipment to dig that out.  Q   Now, just dealing with that.  the river  slide, if we look  at document 1770, which has been marked as exhibit 19 -- A  Yes.  Q   --at page 3?  A  Yes.  Q   You're reporting on the Babine river slide?  A   Yes, that's right.  Q   And you've told us that it took two years to clear it  out?  A   About two years,  yes, from the time we  found it 'til the  time it was perfectly cleared, but we knew something was     wrong.  Down as far as Hazelton and through there red,  mature-looking Sockeye were turning up and dying, so we  knew something was wrong up river, so we flew up the  Babine river, missed it on the way up through the fog,  but on the way coming back we were able to get a good  look at it  and spot it, and  got in touch  with Vancouver  right away and so they sent us in on foot to measure it     up,  and see what --we had an engineer with us and a  biologist, and had to pick out --we knew a road would  have to be in there to pick out a trail road, where a  road could be made, so we did that, that winter. That  same winter  they started in  and built the  road in there,  but in the meantime they made a little, they made a  little bit of a dent in it with just blasting around an  edge and getting a rough pass down, so they did get some fish  into Babine that year, quite a few.  I guess half  of them died.  Q   And Were there Other Obstructions Or difficulties with  regard to the  ability of the  fish to pass  that you were  concerned with and that you did something about? We've     talked  about the Babine rock slide.  A   Well, there was the Hagwilget Canyon.  Originally the  Hagwilget Canyon  was, in the  1800's sometime  there was a  big slide came in there, and I guess no Fisheries were  around to do  anything about  it, so that carried  on for a  long time, and gradually It cleared itself, maybe ice  jammed it and whatnot, so some fish could get up but  when I first went there it was a hold-up for fish, and  eventually they decided to do something about it. They 34  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  sent their engineers up and checked it out, and that  winter they put a drag line and stuff in and they  cleared it, but then we got into a little bit of  trouble. The native Indians couldn't catch fish there  as easy as they could when that block was solid and so  there was some complaints there but I think they got  over it.  They put in -- used dipnets  and the  odd little  piece of net.  Some of them moved down towards the  Skeena and fished down there.  They got over it, but  they were held up there for some time with that  clearing.  Q    I'd like you to  look at document  1847.  This  is a letter  from Chief Donald Gray?  A   Yes.  Q     March, 1957, and  It's to Vick Jerow.  J-e-r-0-w,  is that  you?  A   That's me. That's what he called me anyway.  Q   It does SOrt Of SOUnd like that, doesn't it.  And did  yOu receive this letter?  A    Yes, that letter came to me when  I was in Fisheries,  you  see, but, so we took it up and we went to see -- let me     see  if I --  Q     Okay, I'm going  to ask you to summarize  for us  what you  understood Chief Gray to be talking about, and while you     do  that, though,  I 'mgoing to ask tomarkthis letter--     Imean--yes,  this letter, and just -- attached to it  is a typewritten transcript for anyone who can't read  the writing. Mr. Rush, do you have any objection to  marking the typewritten transcript?  MR. RUSH: What's this at the back?  MS. KOENIGSBERG: It's just a -- somebody copying it has --  MR .  RUSH:  No .  MS.  KOENIGSBERG:  Okay,  that's three  pages, if you  could mark  that as the next exhibit, and if you'll just readitto     yourself  for a moment and then I'm going to ask you some     questions about  it.  (EXHIBIT 22:  Document 1847)  A    Donald Gray at  the time said  that the fish were  held up  because of a, there was a different level where the  Bulkely ran into the Skeena. It was just, oh,  small  rock and gravel.  There was no hold up of fish at all.  I studied that thing, and we found out there was no  stoppage of fish there down where the Bulkely went to  Skeena, but there was -- that's what this one refers to.  MS .  KOENIGSBERG: 35  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  Q   Okay.  What was your response to -- what did you  understand  Chief Gray to be asking you to do?  A  Well, he wanted us to move that gravel bar or the mouth  of the Bulkely river, but our engineers looked at it and  people looked at it, and it wasn't an obstruction to  people to fish so they didn't do anything with it. It's  still there today, as far as I'm concerned, and fish are  going up, but they did some more work in the canyon.  Q   What Was your response to Chief Gray, do you recall?  A   I  tell you,  I can't  remember  -- there's  no letter  -- I  got in touch with the chief supervisor in Vancouver, and  he made a trip up and we had a meeting with Donald gray  and  his gang  at Hagwilget.   I  can't remember  what  all  went on there but --  Q   Now, on the same topic of clearing obstructions and that  sort of thing, did you monitor the activities of  forestry and mining companies?  A   We  monitored  -- we  kept check  on all the  streams  that  carried fish and whether mining people were on it or who  was on it or whether it even went --if nobody was on    it.  Q Will you look at document number 1642? That appears to  be an annual report for 1947, and if you look at page 3,  is that your signature?  A  Yes, that is.  Q   And you are the author of this report?  A   That's right.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Okay.   Maybe we can  mark that  as the  next  exhibit.  (EXHIBIT 23: Document 1642)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Looking at page 2, about two-thirds of the way down the  page, there is a paragraph that begins, "No arrests were  made, " you see that?  A  Yes.  Q   Okay. Reference is made there to slashing being left in  the streams?  A  Yes.  Q  What is that reference to?  A  Logging slash left in streams.  Q   Is that a problem?  A  Well, it is if it's left there, but one of the reasons    for  patrolling the streams was to find anything like  that and make sure it was cleaned out right away.  I  think I say in there ". . .to the operators concerned was 36  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  Sufficient to remedy the situation." But that was quite  a -- that was fairly common.  I mean a faller working  for a company, if the top of his tree used to go in the  stream, or limbs go in the stream, he hasn't got time to  clean it up.  It was part of their job.  Q   And  do you want to look  again  at document  number  1934.  It's an annual report of 1959?  A   Yes.  Q   And are you the author of that?  A   Pardon.  Q   That's your annual report?  A   I'll just look at the back and see if my signature's on  it.  Q   Page 4?  A   That's my signature on there. My report.  Q   Okay.  If you'll look at page 3 under logging?  A   Logging, right.  Q   Last paragraph, you were concerned about logging  activities in the stream?  A  That could happen there.  I say, "This operation will  have to be watched as the operator intended to cross  river with his logs."  Go and get them farther across  and bring them across.  Q   You were reading paragraph 5 under logging,  that's what  you were doing. That' s the one I think you meant. You  don't have to read it.  I just want you to identify for  the record that that' s what you started to do?  A   That's right.  Q   So the reporter could get it down.  A   Right.  Q   This Was part of your patrolling and exercising concern  about forestry activities?  A  Anything that would have any effect on your salmon  streams was Fishery Officer's responsibility.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Could we then mark 1934 as Exhibit 24?  (EXHIBIT 24: Document 1934)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   I want to talk a bit about sport fishing now?  A   Right.  Q   What Were your responsibilities with regard to  sportfishing; did you monitor that?  A   Yes, we monitored sportfishing specially where salmon  were involved.  If, in the trout fishing, if we found  any abuses  other than that,  we usually  turned it over to  the Game Department to handle because they were -- that 37  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  Was their  responsibility  really, but we  could have laid  charges, we had authority to lay charges but I never  laid a charge under the Sportfishing Regulations myself.  Q  What did you do, if anything, to deal with illegal  activity under the heading of sportfishing?  A  Well, I don't know. I can't think of anything offhand  that we did.  We attended meetings here and there and  maybe gave some talks on fishing but I don't know of  anything extra.  Q   Can I ask you if, when we were looking at the notices  that you posted  in public  places in the  places you told  me, sometimes on those notices -- those are notices to  sports fishermen as well as Indians, is that correct?  A  Yes.  Q   Would that be one of the activities you would engage in? A  Yes.  Q   Did you patrol and cover in your patrols  sports-fishermen areas?  A    We did lots  of times cover  sport fishing  areas, but not  as a full-time   job.   If the   sports fishermen  is fishing,  especially for salmon, sometimes at the mouth of the  Kispiox river they fished for salmon and other places  they fished for salmon, we kept a pretty good track of  it, but the overall sportfishing and trout fishing  whatnot, we more or less left it up to them to enforce  regulations.   If we saw anything  out of  line we probably  took particulars and would give it to the provincial  people but I don't remember that coming up.  Q   Did you gather information with regard to Steelhead  escapements?  A    Steelhead escapement  is a  pretty tough  proposition. The  fish come into a stream,  say Copper river, they come  into that stream in September, and they hang in that  stream until the following spring. When the ice comes  out they start to spawn then, and definitely I used to  go up the Kispiox  -- or the  Copper river  quite often at  the time of year that the sportfishing was going on to  see what was  going on.  I  didn't find any  abuses there,  mind you, but that was the only time you could see --  you can't go like you could Sockeye and others where  there's a mass  on the spawning  ground,  you've got a few  Steelhead here   and few Steelhead   there   and more or jess  scattered.  Q     Okay.  While  you were monitoring  fishing,  did you notice  any trends in sportfishing; did they go up or down or  did you ever  notice that kind  of thing  in the time that  you were there? 38  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  A There was sportfishing places like Terrace at the mouth  of the Kjtsumkalum river was fairly heavily fished, and the  shores of the Skeena below that, but I don't  remember any sudden ups and downs in it, but --  Q   Okay. Then going to the topic of Indian food fishing,  while you were inspector at Terrace, do you recall any  trends or changes that would be significant in the  intensity or level of Indian food fishing?  A    Well, it used to go up and down with the -- oh, what  is  the word I want? With the times.  If times were good  and plenty  of money was  available and  there was lots  of  workaround, the Indian wouldn't be fishing as much as     he would  as when he depended more on the salmon if he  didn't have a salary coming in. We did have those ups  and downs, yes.  Q     I'll just refer you briefly  to two  documents which we've  already marked,   Exhibit  21, which is  document 182?,   and  Exhibit 5, which is document 1833. First, if we look at  1827 on page 2?  MR.  RUSH:  1827  is?  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  On page 2.  It's Exhibit 21.  Q   If you look there under Indian Fishery,  I think that's  the  A   Yes.  Q   Thinking about what you just told us,  is that a  reference in  your record  keeping there  to a decrease  in  Indian fishing?  A    Well, it was  a decrease  that year in that area, but,  as  I say, there weren't so many people there. Some years  there was more -- there was oh, a matter of 3 0 --  Q   I probably mislead you.  I think in that paragraph you  refer to an increase.  If you just look below the  figures that you have there and read that paragraph?  A   Oh, the increase -- that's what you mean, well, what was  it? I haven't got a figure down, but I guess that  was -- because some of them didn't go to the cannery.  That's true.  That's what I say, it would vary by the  other work. If they went to the canneries they got fish  down there.  Q   Then, if we look again at document number 1833 on page  one?  A   That 's the same.  Q   You're referring again in that --  A   "Few more permits  issued.   Failure of some  Indians to go  to the coast for the commercial fishing." That's right. Q   Okay,  and then I'm just going to refer you to three  other documents where you make reference to that. 39  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  Document number 1844, which we haven't marked yet,  that's  an annual  report  for  1956, and  page 3, you  were  the author of that document?  A  Yes, I am, was.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Maybe we'll mark that one as Exhibit 25.  (EXHIBIT 25: Document 1844)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   And On page 2 under Indian Fishery,  if you look under    the  figures there?  A  Yes.  Q   Can you just read us out your observation at that time?  A  "One hundred and fifty-seven permits  were issued this year as compared to 131  In 1955 and 99 in 1954. Closure of most  of the Sockeye season and the fact that  fishing companies are dropping some of  their Indian fishermen accounted for this  rise in permits as less Indians went down  for the commercial fishing this year.Sockeye  catch was double the 1955 figure as fish were  much more plentiful and the catch was taken  on the whole with about the same fishing effort  as 1955 although there was an increase of 26  fishermen. Water levels were more favourable  to this Fishery this year than in 1955."  Q    And  if We Can look at  document number  1934, Which  is,  think has already been marked and is Exhibit 24,  if we  look at page 2, are you confirming there your general  observation?  A   That's right.  Q  And do you want to just read out that one sentence?  A  You mean that one paragraph?  Q   The One paragraph.  A  "The number of permits issued and  the number of families taking part In  the Fishery varies from year to year  and is governed somewhat by the general  economy of the district.  For instance,  fishermen that had not been down for the  commercial fishing at the coast for years  came down this year for the expected big  Pink run. When logging cedar pole making 40  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  are going full swing fewer natives are  dependent on the Indian Fishery."  Q  And the last document, Which we haven't marked yet,  1899, annual  report for  1958, and you  are the author  of  that document?  A  Yes. I wrote that report.  Q   Okay, and on page 2 again under Indian Fishery?  A  Yes.  Q   Are you making the same type of observation of an  increase or decrease?  A  That was the general idea.  Jobs were more plentiful.  There was less fishing and fewer, not so many jobs  around, well, they needed more --  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Can we mark that as Exhibit 26, please?  (EXHIBIT 26: Document 1899)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Now, was it part of your job to estimate the number of  fish caught by the Indians?  A  Yes, it was. The department wished to report on the  food fish caught by Indians, yes.  How did you do that?  A  Well, many instances you could go to the Indian  fishermen and ask him how many fish he took and you  could depend that he would tell you honestly. Others  you -- you knew you couldn't trust, well, you checked  their, if you could, their landings from time to time.  You -- when first started there was a lot of fish went  into the smoke houses and you could go into the smoke  house and count them, but in the later years there was  canning done and not so much smoke fish. It was a  little bit harder. So you -- you had to use  guestimates,  I guess, in some instances.  You knew the  number of  days the net was  fishing  and whatnot.  You had  to come to a certain agreement or some idea of it,  better than nothing at all.  Q   Okay. Would you look at document number 1678 and 1739.  Looking at -- are you looking at 1678 first?  A   Yes.  Q   That is headed Up, "Report of Fish Taken in Indian  Fishery for 1948"?  A   Yes.  Q   And you're the author of that document?  A   Yes, I must be. It's got my signature, my name on if  anyway. 41  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  Q   Okay. It indicates a list of geographical locations,  beginning with Hagwilget Canyon?  A   Yes, but, you see, I didn't make all these inspections  myself. I had guardians up in that Hagwilget area and  Hazelton area and I made my trips up there whenever I  could, but some  of these figures  were probably  picked up  from guardians, eh.  Q   Did you instruct the guardians to try and estimate the  number of fish taken in wherever it was they were  observing?  A   That's right.  As good a check as you could.  A lot of  it I did myself.  Maybe I could get up there once a  week, just depend  what other  duties there  were; couldn't  do it all.  Q    At Some point  in time you would record what you observed  and you would record what they told you?  A   I'd put them together and came up with these figures.  Q    Then you would make up a report of the sort we' ve seen? A  That's right, yes .  Q   And this WOUld be your estimate,  then,  from --  A   Yes.  Q     -- from either  your observation  or the  observation of a  guardian that you instructed to do the same thing?  A   Yes.  Q    And they would  -- and then you would total  the different  species?  A   Yes.  Q   And these are all Salmon for those Of Us --  A   And Steelhead trout.  Q   And this document then WOUld be your record of the  estimate of  fish or salmon and  Steelhead  taken in 1948? A  Yes.  Q   In the Indian Fishery?  A   For the Terrace-Lakelse area.  MS. KOENIGSBERG: All right. And can we mark 1678 then as  exhibit 27?  (EXHIBIT 27: Document 1678)  MS .  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   And if We look at document number 173 9, that is the  estimate of  fish taken by  Indians for food  in 1950, for  1950?  A   Yes.  Q   And you are the author of this document?  A   That's right.  Q   And was the information that We See On this document 42  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  gathered in the same way - -  A   In the same way.  Q   -- essentially as on Exhibit 27?  A   That's right.  Q   Okay.  And, likewise, you would have submitted this  document to - -  A   To the district supervisor, then on to - - he would put  stuff together and send it to the chief supervisor in  Vancouver.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay, I'm  going to ask  you another  question  about it but before I do, let's mark 1?39 as Exhibit  28.  (EXHIBIT 28: Document 1739)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q    Okay.   Now, you've  told us that you  gathered these  -- I  guess we can call them statistics, and that you were  asked to do so?  A   That's right.  Q   Do you know what the purpose was?   What did they do with  this information?  A   I don't know what the chief supervisor in Vancouver,  what  he made of it,  except he put  it -- he probably  had  to gather up a food fishing report for the whole of  British Columbia and send to Ottawa.  I imagine that  could have been, but that's where it went to for their  information,  that's  where these reports  all went  to for  their information.  Q   Were  you asked to keep  track, as best  you could,  of all  forms of fishing taking place within your district,  Indian food fishing,  sportfishing?  A    Yes,  except we didn't  -- if the sportfishing  was  in the  river where salmon was concerned, yes, but if it was in    some  non-salmon lake trout, well that we left for the  Game Department completely.  Q  Throughout the annual reports that we have looked at,  when you are reporting on numbers of permits and the  amount of fishing in the Indian Fishery that's taking  place,  you make mention  of Indians going  to the  coast or  working in the canneries and that having an effect?  A  Yes.  Q    Did you  form an impression  from your  observations  as to  the numbers of Indians that would participate in the  commercial Fishery on the coast?  MR. RUSH:  Well, I'll object to that question.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay. 43  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  Q   Go ahead and answer it.  It's Okay.  We'll fight this  one out in a different form. We need your answer now.  A  Ask me it again.  Q   Did you form an impression, from your observations, as  to the numbers of Indian fishermen that you were  observing in your district that went to the coast as  commercial fishermen?  A  Well,  I couldn't put a number on it, but some years it  would be quite a bit, others not so many, it just  depend, but when I went, or my guardians or patrolmen,  went  through the villages  asking  about permits and  that,  and I talked to people, they say,  "They're not here,  they're down at the coast this year."  So it did have  this much effect when things were down at the coast.  Q   Let's move on to the, to another topic. We touched on  your  concern as  a Fisheries official  with the methods  of  fishing?  A   M'hm.  Q   Whether it Was SOme kind Of net Or gaffing, was it a  concern of yours how the Indians fished?  A   Oh, definitely it was, because some type of fishing,  gaffing  at Moricetown  or Hagwilget  Canyon, a lot of  fish  were killed or maimed without, that they weren't caught,     they  were in a net but it was a dip net or a gill net,  but  once they got  into that net they had them, but  there  was quite a -- we did quite a study at Hagwilget Canyon  first of the gaffing there, and there was a big  percentage of the fish were lost there.  Q   Did you -- what did you do about that, if anything?  A  Well,  Fisher Elliot  (phonetic) and myself went down to  the  Fraser Canyon  and we studied  the dip net fishing  in  the Fraser, and probably bought a couple of nets and  brought  them up and  rigged them up.   And the Indians  at  Moricetown and Hagwilget,  they tried them, but they were     a  little bit harder work, I guess, they were too hard  work,  you had to --  a gaff you could  slip it down  in the  water and pull it out, but we have got a net with a bag    hanging  on it. It was, you know, they didn't like it  anyway, and they weren't too happy about -- as a matter  of fact, at Hagwilget there was only one or two places  where these basket nets, dipnets, would work  successfully, so we went then into barbed gaff hooks,  but that didn't work out too well either because they  didn't  lose many fish  but they were  hard to get off  the  gaff hook. Barbs were all filed off anyway so we didn't    win  that one.  Q   I'm referring you to document number 4218, which has 44  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  been marked as Exhibit 4, and I'd ask you to look at  page 3, and 5th  paragraph down.  You seem  to be referring  there to the Hagwilget Canyon and the gaffing,  is that  accurate?  A     That's right.   That's what  I was referring  to.  I guess  I got ahead of you.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  No,  no.  MR. RUSH:  Which page is this?  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm sorry page 3, you see the paragraph  under Steelhead.  No, no, right --  Q   And again document 1652, which we haven't marked yet,  you are the author of this letter?  A   That's right.  Q   It's to Mr. Reade, your supervisor?  A   That's right.  Q   And it's dated December 20,  1948?  A   That's right.  Q   And the tOpic is gaffing?  A   Right.  Q   And your concerns about it?  A   Right.  Q   Okay, could we mark that as the next exhibit?  Attached to exhibit -- attached to document 1652, to  your letter,  is another letter which predates it, it's  dated December 15, '48?  A   That's right.  Q   And it's from Mr. Reade to you?  A   That's right.  Q   And is your letter of December 20th a response to that  letter from Mr. Reade?  A   Yes, I believe it is.  MS. KOENIGSBERG: Okay.  Now, we can mark the three pages,  both letters, as the next exhibit.  (EXHIBIT 29: Document 1652)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   And you have described,  I believe, your concern about  the gaffing and your attempts to introduce dipnetting?  A   Yes, I have.  I was ahead of you there.  Q   And that letter is on that same subject?  A   M'hm.  Q   Now, Was the introduction Of the dipnets successful at  all?  A   In Hagwilget Canyon It was not that successful because  there was only  one or two places  that could  be used, and  at Moricetown, no, it didn't work out. They could put 45  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  the long dip  net down to  the bottom and  sometimes bring  Out two Spring salmon that long in the same net.  Q   The witness has jUst indicated a fish StOry.  A   They liked the gaff because it was easier to handle. We  didn't say they had to use them. We tried to convince  them to.  Q     For the record  I was just  indicating that  when you were  demonstrating with your arms the length of the salmon  which would  have been caught  in a dip net,  I believe you  were using arms breadth?  A   Forty pounders could come up. A Spring salmon can go  over a hundred, it can be over a hundred pounds.  Q    Why do you  think -- why did you, or did you conclude as  to why the dipnetting was not successful other than in     the  Hagwilget Canyon? I think you indicated there was  only a limited number of places, maybe two, that it  would work?  A    Well, actually,  I kind --  I have a notion  myself it was  done because it was a little harder work.  If you get a     gaff  with just a small hook on it and you could -- but  when you've  got a net with  a -- shaped  so, think there's  a picture of one of them somewhere, but anyway, when  you're working  with that  in water and there's  any speed  to it, it's hard work. They were very successful on the  Fraser but  the Fraser doesn't  run that  fast, especially  at fishing time, but they were very successful.  They  would tie  the rope on the  end and leave  it in until the  fish hit it, but it' s a little bit different story.  Q   You're saying it's different because the current's  faster?  A   It was at the bottom of the falls and canyon's where the  water was running fast, turbulent, although you could  catch fish without losing any, that's for sure, but I  think that's why they turned it down, myself.  Q     Now, you've  told us that  the other thing  that you tried  to do with regard to gaffing was to introduce barbed  hooks on the gaffs?  A   Yes.  Q   And that that was not successful?  A    Well, it  helped.  They didn't  lose anywhere  near as many  fish because there was quite a good sized barb on that  hook, but then it came to --on their own -- their own  gaffs with no barb on it, they would come up with a  fish, they  would give it  a shake and it  would come off.  The barb gaff hook they had to remove it by hand, eh,  because of that big -- quite an extensive barb to hold  the fish.  They had to do it by hand, and it might have 46  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  been --it is true, if you had a fish, you had to fire  it up over the rocks, then you had to climb up and hit  it on the head and pull out the gaff and then go back  again.  I mean, you're losing some time,  I guess.  Q   Would you look at document number 1718?  Is that your  document?  A   Yes, it is.  Q   And it's from you to Mr. Reade?  A   That's right.  Q   Dated OCtOber two, 1950?  A   Right.  Q   And it's On the Subject Of the barbed gaff hooks we've  just been discussing?  A   Yes.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Could we mark that as the next exhibit,  please?  (EXHIBIT 30: Document 1718)  MS .  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Briefly summarizing that letter, you are reporting to  Mr. Reade on the introduction of barbed hooks and the  difficulties that you encountered?  A   Yes.  Q   Can you just summarize that?  A   I'll read it over carefully first.  "Indians used these hooks when they're  supplied but would not supply their own.  Hooks used were made by blacksmith and cost  60 cents apiece"  Q   Can you just, without reading it now, can you just  summarize what you were getting at, why you were  reporting this to Mr. Reade?  A   Well, we thought that we were working on something  worthwhile, but it wasn't, you know, wasn't as  successful as we thought it was, would be, and we  thought that maybe if we kept it up, if it was kept up  for a few  years maybe we  would have some  success, that's  all.  Q   I'd like to deal with the species of salmon.  Were all  of the  species of salmon  which would run  in the streams  used to your knowledge?  A   Well, they're all used pretty well except for the Pink  salmon, the Humpbacks.  Q   Okay? 47  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  A   They're  a fish that  doesn't keep  too well.   It cans all  right but the native population would throw away  Humpbacks if they got them mixed in the nets with the  others.  If they had plenty of Sockeye or Cohos the  Pinks would go, but if they didn't have anything but  Pinks, but, of course, they would use them if they  didn't have anything else.  I might add that fish in a  gill  net can be dead when they get out of the  water, you  know,  I mean --  Q   Just looking at Exhibit 29, document 1652,  if you look  at paragraph three,  I think you're dealing with Pink  salmon there?  A  Yes. Do you want me to read it?  Q    I'm  just going to ask  you to  look at it.  What,  to your  knowledge, was done with Pink salmon if they were caught but  not used?  A   Well,  if they were dead  they were  thrown away.   I don't  know if they would throw them back if they were marked  up but they didn't use them if  they had lots of Sockeye. Q  Okay.  I understand that in the late 1950's, Fisheries  began taging Pink salmon?  A   Pardon?  Q   In the 1950's did Fisheries begin taging Pink salmon?  A   That's right, yes.  Q   Why was that?  A   Well,  the research was  to -- it was research they did on  the Pink salmon to get where they spawn, the time of  year,  the travel and  whatnot, I  guess it was --  I can't  really remember exactly what that one was all about  because  I didn't take  that much part in it, but  they had  a test Fishery down at the mouth of the Skeena, and they tagged  there all the time, tagged fish, sent them up the river tagged.  Maybe I could read that over again.  Q   Okay.  I'll see if I can --  A  Might come to mind.  Q   All right. First I want to ask you a couple more  questions about it.  Do you recall what happened, if  anything,  if a tagged Pink was found or caught by a  fisherman, what could they do with that?  A   The  tag, they could  turn it in  for 50 cents I think was  the price then maybe.  They'd turn it in to the first  Fishery Officer or Fishery office they could turn them  in and get their money.  Q   And,  to your knowledge,  did Indian  fishermen turn  in the  Pink tags?  A   Oh,  yes, they would  fish to get  the tags, yes.   If they  knew there was lots of tags, they went fishing longer 48  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  because they'd get 50 cents apiece for them. There was    no  doubt about that.  Q   Did that become a problem,  as far as you were concerned? A  It meant a loss of salmon that were caused by the tags,    because  there was a little bit of money in it, not that    much but  Q   I'm going to ask you to look at three documents.  The  first one has not been marked yet.  It's 1863. Oh,  it  has been marked. That's Exhibit No. 20. On page 2?  Page 2.  If you look under Indian Fishery down toward the bottom? A  A  Q  Yes  Q  A  Q  get  Q  A  MS  because  they wanted  to  le you'll just read over to yourself now the last  paragraph, and I'd like you to tell us about your  observations with regard to the Pinks and the tagging?  Yes. What did you wish to know?  Okay.  You see there you refer to the Pinks. What is  your concern that you're expressing there?  They were  fishing for  Pinks just  the tags.  And why would that concern you?  Well, because they were -- I mean,  fish that they didn't use.  And let's look at documents number  going to -- would you like a break  I need one.  KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  they were killing  1866 and 1867  now?  I'm  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED  PURSUANT TO A BRIEF RECESS)  Beginning with  1958, and it's  1866, that's  from a R. C.  a letter  Edwards?  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   I've asked you to look at documents number 1866 and  1867?  A   Yes.  Q   And as well 1868.  dated February 13  A  Yes.  Q   To yourself?  A   That's right.  Q   And do you recall receiving  A  Yes, I do.  Q   And Who Was Mr. Edwards?  A   Well, he  was acting  district  after Gordon Reade left.  Q   Okay.  And what is his  about?  that letter?  supervisor  at Prince  Rupert  concern?  What is he asking you 49  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  A He's asking me about the fishing for tags. They figure  that was extra fishing carried out because of the tags. I think  that was the year -- one year they tagged quite a big number,  large number of Pinks, and, of course, if you've got two or  three tagged Pinks, a  dollar-and-a-half,  eh.  Q   If we look at document 1867?  A  Yes.  Q   That's a letter from you to Mr. Edwards?  A   That's right.  Q   And you're responding to his letter, are you?  A   That's right.  Q   And Can you just tell me, would it be easiest if you  just summarized what you were responding to, what your  concerns were?  A   I guess, yes, that's right, that's an answer to that  letter, but I say in my letter here,  "The Springs, Sockeye, Coho and  Steelhead taken by the Indians are  practically all used,"  but Pinks weren't.  Pinks, actually,  in the Indian  Fishery  up river,  Pinks were something  they had  to bear  with, but if there was tags on them it was all to the  good.  Q   Okay, and --  A   Charges  could be  laid if they were  not taking fish  -- if  they were -- they were not taking fish, if they were  taking the tag and throwing it away.  This action would    be  hard to enforce.  Would you like me to go on with  that?  Q    Were  there suggestions  being made  by you or anyone  else  in Fisheries as to what could be done about the problem     of  taking the Pinks for the tags?  A  As I said here:  "I cannot see any real solution to  the problem as long as Indians are allowed  to take food for their own use and hope  that enough data will be gathered that  these tagging programmes so that they  can be discontinued.  This will be an answer  to the problem."  That ' s as far as I could go on that one.  Q   Let's go on to document 1868. 50  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  A   Right.  Q  And it seems to be responsive, does it, to your letter  that we just looked at of February 24th, and this is a  letter from Mr. Edwards to you again, and it's dated  February 28, 1958?  A   Right.  Q   Can you just look at that briefly?  A  "You state that under ordinary  circumstances fisk food nets are usually  removed from the river during the height  of the Pink migration.  Under authority  of section 32 subsections 1 (a) and (b)  and (c) the chief Supervisor may limit or  fix ti time of such fishing, and any  permits issued should not include the  period during which migrating Pink salmon  were in heavy abundance".  Like the tagged ones, yes. That was one way he  decided to handle it, and I think that might be --  Q   Okay. Do you recall if any specific measures were  suggested  to deal with  what seemed to  be perceived  to be  a problem here?  A   I think perhaps there was such as cutting fishing time  down but  I can't remember  offhand.   I'm sorry, my memory  is fading.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  No problem.  Let's mark 1866 as the next  exhibit, and then, if we can, In sequence,  the next  exhibit 1867, and exhibit after that 1868.  (EXHIBIT 31: Document 1866)  (Exhibit 32: Document 1867)  (EXHIBIT 33: Document 1868)  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm going to adjourn this until tomorrow  morning. 51  GIRAUD, V.H.  Exam in chief  Thank you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED>  I hereby certify foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Valerie Wells  Official Reporter

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