Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Fred Johnson Vol. 2] British Columbia. Supreme Court Oct 27, 1986

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 2-72  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  FRED JOHNSON, a witness called  on behalf of the Plaintiffs,  previously affirmed:  GLEN WILLIAMS, Gitksan  Interpreter, previously  affirmed:    UPON COMMENCING AT 10 . 30 A.M. , 27 OCTOBER, 1986    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. RUSH: This will begin the Commission testimony of Mr. Fred  Johnson, Lelt.  It's October 27th today. With us today  doing the translation is Mr. Glen Williams, and doing  the Court Reporting is Veronica Duffy.  Acting on behalf of the Provincial Crown is Mr.  Darrell O'Byrne and on behalf of the Federal Crown is  Mr. Leonard Cohen. With me assisting for the identification of the words is Susan Marsden and, of course,  Mike McDonald working our camera.  With everyone identified I wonder, Mr. Williams,  if you would just explain -- translate to Mr. Johnson  what I have said. I would like you to translate pretty  much word for word as I've indicated in this opening.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  MR. RUSH: I forgot to identify myselfforthe record, Stuart  Rush, for the Plaintiffs.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH,  (CONTINUED)  :  Q   Now, Mr. Johnson, I will ask you a number of questions  today and Glen will translate the questions for us.  The first question I wanted to ask you was, can you tell  us what some of your hunting territories are?  going to talk now?  you talk now, it's your turn.  sitting right?  you are.  the chief, our chief and good house wherever you  come from in Ottawa, all the Gitksan big chiefs, they  want the land to be firm and they are concerned about  the children, their education. When the missionaries  came, the first missionary was Price, who helped  build the church at Kitwanga. And there was a  school. There was a school here. Sometimes he would  go to Kitwancool. They get together to raise totem pole  A  Am  I  Q  Yes,  A  Am  I  Q  Yes,  A  Well 2-73  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  You will learn a lot more about the Indian people and  that Ottawa should recognize and acknowledge that nobody  will touch, it will be firm, and that knowledge will be  further within the Indian people. The missionary man,  his name was Mr. Price.  Well, the people listen, they listen. There is a  time when people meet, different villages, Kitwancool,  Kispiox. There has always been Indian Office in  Hazelton that would have -- they have records of our  lands, that they have posts for our lands. They not use  other laws against us. That we have taken the laws of  the House of Commons. That is why the Simooget, we live  longer because we listen and the Lord is always watching  and he gives us valuable sun. Then the minister speaks  light of the world, and we are happy. We learned to  listen from our leaders.  There was a big man that came, minister, he came  from somewhere -- I can't remember where he came from,  can't remember that place. Then he came with cross,  Jesus, that was long and he spoke at the church. He  came along with his wife, he was big Bishop. Don't  waste your lives, put it into the rights. While I was  encouraged, when I listened, we always enlightened and  we always communicated with each other. And the Indian  agent was always there standing. He has always talked  to US and encouraged us, and the minister of the Nass  River as well, Mr. McCullough was his name, he was the  minister, the preacher.  While I'm happy to have learned this and the people  should hear this as well. This is why I am happy  that you are here today. Our hearts are with you, and  all the people in the whole area here, all the villagers,  they feel that -- they feel in their hearts, and the  chiefs. That is all I have to say for now.  Q  Now, Mr. Johnson, you talked about your land, can you  tell us where is Lelt's land?  A  Just west of here. Where there's a hole in the tunnel  west of here. Gisga'ooxs. Gwinilx. Where there's lots  of seals there. There is another name, Gwunwakx. There  is rocks sticking up and there's lots of goats there.  The goats watch for -- there's lots of goat food there  as well. This is the life of our Indian people.  Lax'wiit'in is another name, Lax'wiit'in. And Ansimlaan  is another, and there is another name.  Q  Okay. Is that another name?  A  Ansimlaan.  Q  Was there another name after Ansimlaan?  THE INTERPRETER: That is what he was trying to say. 2-74  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  THE WITNESS: Where you boil the fish eggs.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  The name for Ansimlaan, is that Where yOu boil the fish  eggs? Is that the English name?  A  Yes, boil in a bowl. That is why the Indian people know  themselves that it's good for their own life. The  Wilnat'ahl own it here.  Q  Okay.  A  They communicate, they meet with each other.  Q  Okay. I want to ask, Mr. Johnson, is Gisga'ooxs the  first place of the land that you mentioned, and then  mentioned Gwinilx.  I don't know if I have the names  correctly spoken but I think that is the correct Gitksan  name. Are Gisga'ooxs and Gwinilx, are they west of  Cedarvale?  A  On this side of Cedarvale. It's right round on this side  of the Woodcock Station.  Q  What side Of the river is it On?  A  On the other side where the road, where the railroad  uses.  Q  Is it on the railroad side of the river?  A  Yes, on that side. And we also own above it as well.  Wilnat'ahl is another one. Hlengwax. Another owner  there. Just like this table here.  (In English) My table and food.  There is authority for that, that is for their survival. A seating place for the chiefs.  Q  Now, what kind of animals did you and the members of  your family hunt at Gisga'ooxs and Gwinilx?  A  Marten. Everything. Fisher. Goat. Berries. Fruits.  You feel better, healthy, just like table all over the  world.  Q  Do you remember, Mr. Johnson, where you got the berries  on this? Was it up on a hill? Can you tell us whereabouts the berry patches were?  A  Above the station. Above Woodcock, Wilnahloo (?) that's  the name of it.  Q  wilnahloo?  A  There's almost small valley in the mountain. There's  lots of groundhog, that's where the big chiefs eat.  Q  So you get groundhogs there as well?  A  Oh, lots. Groundhogs have their own country. We hook  them out when we want them. This is what they did.  There's a hole in the rock then the groundhog is eating,  just like in the garden amongst the grass, and there is  an eagle flying, Skemsem is what we call it.  Q  Skemsem, what is that? 2-75  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  THE INTERPRETER:  Eagle.  THE WITNESS: This is what the groundhog says, I am having  difficulty trying to whistle.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  The groundhog whistled anyway, did he?  A  Yes. He looked for his other groundhogs. There's big  groundhog that takes off and he goes and hides in the  rocks, maybe this is how high the rock is, goes inside  the rock, the eagle can't get the groundhog.  This is what the good hunter would do, he has a long  stick and uses this for a cane as well, and it's got a  hook on the end of it.  What this hunter would do is  put this big stick in the hole and the groundhog would  bite on the end of the stick and the hunter would  slowly pull it. The groundhog head is really hard.  Goohl is what the head of the groundhog is called. The  hunter doesn't pull it very hard or elsehe would lose  the groundhog, and the groundhog's mouth is really  strong. The groundhog would brace himself in the hole  and he slowly come out.  We listened to the wise, the wise people who taught  US this, and when the groundhog would be tired, slowly  pull him out. When they finally pull him out, uses the  stick and jab him right down the throat. It is good  meat and we have lots of grease from it. It's light, all  the people would eat it, children, the family. It is  what we call Witx.  Q  Were there lots of these groundhogs around that you could  hunt?  A  There is just enough, we left some too, we left some.  Just leave them. Just when we wanted them we went and  got them. Everybody else did that.  Q  Did you hunt like you have told us about?  A  Yes . That's right.  Q  Now, you have    A  We always meet with each other. We know each other.  And we help each other.  (In English) We have happy time and we all eat together  Q  Now, did you hunt any other animals on your territory?  A  That's the goats. There's a name where the goats are,  name of that mountain.  Q  What is that name?  A  Axwsxwt is one of them.  Q  Which?  A  Axwsxwt. Just like cement, when the rocks are frozen  together. Antgiits'ex is another name and where there's  goat as well. 2-76  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   Pardon?  A  Where there's goat as well. Where Wilnat'ahl get their  food to eat.  Q   Mr. Johnson, Can you tell me where Axwsxwt is?  A  The same mountain, up behind Wilnahloo.  Q   Behind what?  A  Wilnahloo. The Same place is berries there.  Q   Is that Close to Where WOOdCOCk station is?  A  The same place where I was telling you about where we  hooked the groundhog.  Q   Oh yes.  A  Anxt'imi'it. This is the land of 'Wii Hlengwax, my  fellow chief.  There's lots of animals and there's all different  types of -- varieties of Indian food. The Indian people  eat all all these foods. Sometimes medicine to make people  lucky. There's lots there. That is why we have totem  poles, stories. That is why people are chosen to take  over the -- take over the leaders. The relatives of  the Simooget, who I'm with, 'Wii Hlengwax.  Q   Mr. Johnson, you told us about the groundhog and you  told us about the goat on your territories; were there  any other animals? Were there animals like bear or any  other animals like mink or small ground animals?  A  Lots of bears. Whoever is eager, whoever is eager goes  after the bear. That's why we listen to the people when  they talk, our grandfathers, our grandmothers. What we  must do, we listen to their talk when we -- and we learn  from this to go and use it when it's time to kill bears  We always listen. The same way today. That's what we  call Wiihooks, look after.  Q  Now, I want to ask you, Mr. Johnson, about some of the  fishing sites, Lelt's fishing sites.  I think you mentioned Lax'wiit'in, can you tell me where that is?  A  The same place at the mouth of Sedan Creek, just above  the station at Woodcock. They have names.  Q   What is the English meaning for Lax'wiit'in?  A   The river goes here and the T'in, there wasn't very many  pine. They wrapped weeds, that's what they used to make  just like a seine net. They rolled it up together. The  is what they did with their lake. Just like what the  white man does, almost the same. Almost the same as  seine what they made. When they took a stick and they  tied it on the tree. There Was lots of fish long time  ago, and then only the lots of people have been there  that the fish are slowly no more return on fish. They  almost -- they always warned us to look after the food.  That's what they made the rope out of, the bark of 2-77  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  the Cedar. The heart Of the poles. It made good rope.  They used it for other things as well. That' s what they  also used when they dried the fish as well. It's clean,  And people are happy. They made good food as well.  Clean.  Q  Now, Mr. Johnson, you were describing I think a trap,  T'in, were you not? This is what you described?  A  Yes.  Q  Did you fish with one of these traps when you were  younger?  A  Sometimes, yes. Yes, we used the T'in and we caught  fish. When the fish came, and the old people would  gather the mash. They don't place any old place.  They placed the fish on the clean bark and they prayed,  they prayed for the salmon. They acknowledge the work  of the creator. There is a law for it, and there's an  Ada'ox for it.  Q  Now, you told us, Mr. Johnson, about Ansimlaan; can you  jUSt tell us where is Ansimlaan located? Is it on the  railway side of the river? Of the Skeena River?  A  Yes, the same thing I said a while ago, on the tracks.  I said it about two or three times already.  Q  Okay. Now, you've mentioned two fishing sites, you  told us about Lax'wiit'in and you told us about  Ansimlaan.  A  Ansimlaan was the net area, Anyuusxw, and Laxiwiit'in  is there you used the trap.  Q  Does Anyuusxw, does that mean dip net? Dip net area?  A  Almost like big sack.  Q  Like big what?  A  Almost like big sack, almost like seine of the white man  down the coast. There is a handle on it and that is why  they put it down in the water . There was lots of fish a  long time ago. Maybe there's two people who would use  this trap. They honoured the salmon.  Q  Were there any other fishing sites that were used by  Lelt's house and family?  A  There's another around, near the dip net area, there's a  name for the dip net area. An'is is another name for  the dip net area. You will know the old meaning yourselves . The people know here.  Q  Now, is there another fishing site at Mill Creek? Down  around Mill Creek?  A  Just west of here. Mill Creek. Xsa'ansgyoox.  Q  Which?  THE INTERPRETER: He's asking for clarification on the name of  the creek, and Xsa'ansgyoox is what he asked me and I  said yes. The place is owned by the name he just gave 2-78  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  you, and they're related to my mother.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  What is the name? The name that he gave? I didn't get  it?  A  Sigihlmuuks, that's her name. Nuuguts'aagat sometimes  uses area as well. She really knows how to use the  salmon, preserve the salmon. Everything that our grandparents said.  Q Mr. Johnson, can you recall any other of Lelt's fishing  sites? You have given us the name of two, are there any  others?  A  We all used that area around Cedarvale, Gitluusek.  There's lots of people there. Lots of berries. There's  lots of people many years ago and they were strong.  They were strong because they ate their own food.  Q  Now, did T'axts'ox and Luulak, did they have fishing  sites down at Cedarvale?  A  We all owned the sites. There's other people that are  involved as well. Whomever wants to make food, preserve  food, they helped each other.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Mr. Johnson, we just had a bit of a problem with the  tape, so let me ask you some other questions now. Do  you know any of the fishing sites of Haalus?  A  That is what Haalus have always said, at the, where the  Shandilla comes out on the Skeena, across the river over  there, that's what they have always talked about.  Simooget Haalus.  Q  Is that the territory of Haalus, where Mr. Johnson  describes?  A  Yes, where they get their fish there.  Q  Does that place have a particular name that he knows  about?  A  Xsa'andilgan.  Q  Xsa'andilgan.  A  Where the set net is there.  Q  Set net is there?  THE INTERPRETER: You can put the set net.  MR. RUSH: Oh, I see.  THE WITNESS: But his property just goes around. We are almost  the same. Wilnat'ahl, his trail goes to the Seven  Sisters. And he has his songs.    WITNESS SINGS SONG 2-79  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  THE WITNESS: When the big chiefs are seated in the big house,  and little children getting up and are astounded by what  is happening. People listen. We stand by our children.  We just watch. Hlengwax this is.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  This is What?  A  Hlengwax, it's the song. There's lots of food. The  transfer is because of food and because of seating.  There's lots of berries at Seven Sisters as well.  Q  Mr. Johnson, you sang us a song, who owns that song?  A  Hlengwax and Haalus and Wilnat'ahl, and there's people,  head chiefs. They help each other. Work together.  Q  Can you just tell us what the song meant? What does the  song mean?  A  They made the song of that big mountain about the truth,  about the property. That is a fair amount of native  people here in this area now that nobody will touch the  mountain. That nobody will even touch it before the  real owner would speak on it. That is why they always  show authority and their power. That is why we still  have the totem poles and the totem stones.  Q  Who OWns Seven sisters Mountain?  A  Same one, Hlengwax.  Q  Now, Mr. Johnson, you told us about Axwsxwt; can you  tell us what that means? What does Axwsxwt mean?  A  Cement on the sides, cement is frozen. The cement is  almost whitish and that is what it looks like on the  mountain, on the side of the mountain. That is why the  Indian people say Axwsxwt.  Q  Is there an English name for the mountain?  A  I have never heard it. That's the only one I have  heard, Axwsxwt.  Q  Okay.  ,  A  And people know that.  Q  You told us about Antgiits'ex is one of the territories,  do I have the name correct?  A  You know those small little trees that have real long  branches? Long branches? This is what the Indian  people used to make rope out of it, they twisted it.  This is what they used to strap the traps. They burnt  it a little bit so it was soft, just like rope. They  used the bark of the cedar as well.  Q  Is there an English name for Antgiits'ex?  A  No, I have never heard it. The white people already,  they know.  Q  Now, you told us as well, Mr. Johnson, about Ansimlaan.  Is there an English name for Ansimlaan? 2-1  30  JOHNSON,  F.  In  Chief  Mr  . Rush  A  (In  Engl  ish)  No,  Q  Now,  Mr.  Johnson,  I've never heard. My brother,  what time of the year did you fish when  you fished Lelt's fishing sites?  A  When the fish come. Somebody somewhere around June.  When people go to the coast. Maybe early June. Maybe  April that may be one or two fish come, maybe spring  salmon, and there was always lots of steelhead and trout  Q   Now, how do you keep the fish over the winter?  A  We know when we have enough fish for the winter and we  know that other people will need and they give it, maybe  40, 40 fish, and this is what we call Luuks, 40 fish.  We give out to people who need it and we give it out when  people have a death on their side of the family and the,  help each other and work together. They never wanted  anybody to be downhearted for a long period of time.  Q   Now, you kept the fish over the winter after you caught  it . how did you store the fish?  A  They made a -- maybe a six-foot, big box, really strong  If they wanted to be very clean they used birch bark for  lining, and they used spruce branches with really sharp  needles, just to protect from animals getting into it.  The animals would just get prickled by the needles of the  pine and not get into the food. It's about six feet up,  just like what you do with bacon, you hang it up.  Q   Where would you hang it? Would you hang it in a special  house for this or where would you keep it?  A  We put it inside the box, and it's sealed properly. Only  the eager and the smart that fix the box, and it's  inspected by other people.  MR. RUSH: Maybe we'll just stop now. We have to change the  tape now, Mr. Johnson, so we'll stop.    SHORT RECESS  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Mr. Johnson,We've jUst Started the video tape again.  We were talking about the way in which you caught and  stored fish. Can you tell us how much fish did you  catch when you were fishing as a younger person?  A  The old people know when the boss talks, our grandfather  spoke when there was enough fish, when the storage pit  was full, and there was very few people who know how to  do this. There's always somebody who monitors how many  fish are there and he speaks. He says, they say there's  enough fish now. And he is very happy there's lots of  fish. And he dries some. This is what they've always  done. Then the fish, there would be just enough fish.  They dried it properly and then the dogs would -- they 2-81  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  would feed the dogs properly because they used the dogs  when they used to be out on the trap or hunting because  the dog would smell and assist in hunting and in trapping. They had slit the dog's nose and, and they cut  the nail of the dog's toe because they cut the dog's  nail off on the toe in the event of bear attack. They  tie something to a tree and when the dogs bark the bear  would run up the tree. They really look after the dogs.  Whenever there is a good dog they would sometimes name  the dog, sometimes the dog would be named Hlengwax, and  the dog would be very smart, and they really care for  the dog and the dog would really listen.  Q  Mr. Johnson, you said that when the fish pits were full,  that is when they knew they had enough fish; can you  tell us what was the type of fish that the people liked  best?  A Sockeye. Spring salmon. Steelhead and the trout are  the fish for the winter. We own it. That's right. I  want the trout.  Q  When you were younger did you always have enough fish to  see you through the winter?  A  Yes. There really was. When there was fish left over  we would give them to whoever needs it, to our relative:  and the return would eventually come back and you would  never have to ask for the return.  Q  Does Somebody give you fish today?  A  Yes, my kids and my grandparents, and my kids. They see  I am weak. That is the way it is still today.  (In English) Anybody like that.  Q  Did you trade fish?  A  Sometimes. Yes, we, whoever wants to trade, they trade.  Trade for, in return for berries or dried soap berries.  There would be houses full of fish and there would be  lots of wooden spoons, and they used goat horns to make  spoons, and there would be carvings at the end of the  spoons, on the handle. The big spoons they used to dip  the berries, almost as big, as big as my hand, big spoor  used for dipping berries.  That's what Mr. Price did at Christmas time, mixed  raisins with rice and used the Indian hoobix, spoon and  maybe it is still up in the mountains today. Hoobix.  And Mr. Price dipped in these raisins and rice and  showed it to people and he would be the only one to eat  it, themselves.  (In English)  I remember this, I see as a little  boy, a little man. All right, Mister, I'm very tired.  Q  Mr. Johnson, did you ever trade with the Nis'ga? Trade fish?  A  Yes. They don't have time. They don't have time, there 2-82  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  is lots of grease, they're always busy with grease. The  people here set off and trade, the Nis'gas, they tried  soap berries. Sometimes there would be a loadfull in  the canoe. Maybe there was two people in canoe that go  to Vancouver and they helped each other with the canoe  around two times. The big cedar canoe, and they went to  Vancouver. They carried the dried fish, dried berries,  dried soap berries. They traded with Vancouver food.  They traded for   Q  Now, Mr. Johnson, how did you conserve the fish? Or mak  sure there was enough fish to come back every year when  you were fishing?  A  A certain month when the spring salmon comes, there's  certain times, months that the fish come and we would  get ready, we would get our tools ready, everybody else  did this.  Q  When the fish Came, you know the fish came back every  year, were you able to take enough to make sure that the  came back? Or take the right amount to be sure that the  would come back every year?  A  They looked after -- they looked after the fish eggs.  The fish know what they're doing. They were naxnox.  They know what they were doing. If there was a cannery  running, like Cassiar Cannery, they would have -- they  would have to return all the fish eggs back into the  water, underneath the wharves, and there's always small  little fish that grow around the fish eggs. The animals  know what they have to do themselves.  Q  You tOld Us a little earlier this morning about how there  was some Indian medicine up on your territory; Can you  tell us what kind of Indian medicine there was?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Indian medicine, like devil's club?  A  Yes, that's devil's club. There was Ada'ox, the Indian  people had when the children were starving, when they  didn't follow the laws and they starved, they were just  almost dead. His father was walking around, his mother was  walking around. They went after Ax, food. There's  certain places where this Ax grows. When they were just  without food and they went to hunt and they came back  with nothing. When the children were really weak and  they're really starved, and something spoke near the  door, this is the way the houses were standing, as a  person entered he gave them -- gave the Hix to the  starving families. Almost like bacon. The bears did 2-83  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  it, the bears were crying.  After a while, this person, he gather will be all right,  go to bed now, and this older boy was watching out for  this man. He closed the door and he left and he disappeared into the bush. This was.. .  Q  This was what?  THE INTERPRETER: This was a bear that did that.  THE WITNESS: He was lucky, that is why he had luck. The mother  said to the father that a creature took their children,  and the older child showed where the bear had disappeared  the bear disappeared in the bush. They were lucky. The  man blew and made a sound towards the bear, and the man  killed the bear, and they dragged him out of the cave.  As they were skinning the bear then they made the song.  WITNESS SINGS SONG  THE WITNESS: They brought the bear meat over. This one person  said, a small young girl, the girl belong  to the  chief, they tied a rope, Indian rope around the girl's ,  head, with a little branch of cedar tied on here, then  they roasted the head of the bear and then they sang the  songs.    WITNESS SINGS SONG  THE WITNESS: And the little girl would, there was a little  feather, a little cedar branch.    WITNESS SINGS SONG  THE WITNESS: It's the girl's song. When the girl will be  older and she would marry a wealthy man, a lucky man  would look after her. And they would learn. It is  still the same today. Other people know today.  Lots of bears. Grease. Just running where they  live. Things would just -- there would be more bears  around.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Where did they live?  A  Those are the people talked about all it today. The  people of the House of Hlengwax, Lelt. All the people  know it and follow the hunting ways.  Q  When you sang the song while they roasted the bear's  head, what did the song mean?  A  The girl would be, have children, she would be smart,  she would be really smart. 2-84  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  (In English) All over the world, Indian business,  every generation.  Q  Mr. Johnson, in other parts of the territory that you  have just described, where 'Wii Hlengwax and Lelt and  other chiefs of Kitwanga lived and worked, trapped and  hunted, were there other kinds of plants and other  things that you used from that land?  A  And medicine as well, drinking medicine.  Q  What does he Say?  A  Is that right?  Q  I am asking about medicine and other things that you  used, like the wood, the trees?  A  When you're sick there's Luuix. There's lots of Luuix.  Lots around. When you chop it it turns red right away.  Our mother used to go and get this. When the snow was  frozen before they hunted and placed it on branches and  took a knife and shaved the bark off, and just the inner  Lark was --it was cleaned and there would be a big pot  near the fire with a cap on. After the bark was all  taken off, she would scrape it. It's about this long.  Q  As long as your arm?  A  The Luuix is quite big, about this round. Scrape it  with a big knife. The shavings would just go right on  the branches, and after they have done that they put it  into the pot.  Q  The Shavings into the pot?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  THE WITNESS] Almost like the water would change colours to a  stain colour. Almost taste like the same, the juice of  raspberries. They watch it really closely and they  stir it with a big spoon. They were really careful to  check over the -- when just about cooked they take it  off the fire and get a cup, dip it in and they give it to  us. It helpS us in the joints. You're full of evil  and we have to stay here for two or three days. That's  what you guys have to do. After a while the pain in  their stomach, that's when your sickness will leave  you. Another day you are running around.  (In English) That's right, I remember when I talk  Somebody know here, around here knows.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Did you like the taste of the Luuix?  A  Yes, I like it. I own it. They looked after me. They  looked after me because they knew I would be a wise man  and I would be lucky. They looked after good people.  Q  Does the Luuix COme from a tree?  A  Maybe just around the river, maybe up the road to 2-85  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Kitwancool. Maybe around Tea Creek. Maybe just west of  here. There's nobody out there to check it out.  Q  Did you use devil's club when you were sick?  A  Yes.  Q  How did you use it?  A  Place right beside the fire, and when we see there's no  spark on it, just starting to smoke, just after we bath.  Q  After a bath?  A  After a bath, try to make ourselves lucky. We eat most  of it, Wa'oom's, and we trap really good after it. We  used our own Indian traps, Ts'ap'mgan. But marten don't  smell it, they smell steel. The marten would go right  inside the trap, and there' s just a narrow area made of  sticks.  Q  I think So.  A  (In English) That's right. It's easy, looks good.  Q  The devil's Club made you lucky, did it?  A  Yes, that's our ada'ox. JUSt like the song of the bear  with the little girl. Just like we said in the story of  the little girl when they chased the bear up the tree.  Whenever you eat, you use devil's club, you're always  lucky. Wa'oom's, they have another name for it as well  and the bark, I think it's hemlock they also used. Thai  is why we still have our land now. That's where all our  money is. There's also other things, Gwiismauxs.  Q  Gwiismauxs?  THE INTERPRETER:  Gwiismauxs.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  What ' s that?  A  And groundhog skins. Sometimes big marten blanket.  (In English) In the chief house.  Q  Mr. Johnson, you said just a few moments ago you batted  before you went out to hunt and you made yourself lucky  Why was it important to bathe before you went out to  hunt?  A  (In English) That's right. Before.  We would bath now, maybe about four months that we  would do this, we look after ourselves, and when we are  Out hunting the animals would never come to our traps,  and we would bath again and we never, sleep separately  and not sleep with my brother, and we would not play.  We won.  Q  We won?  THE INTERPRETER:  We won.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   What do you mean that you won? 2-86  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  We remember the long time we spent and the four months  in getting ready, and then that the animals would almost  come by themsleves and Ge would have lots of furs. Thai  is why we say we won. I would have lots of marten  around my bed. My brother would have another place for  his, and there would be lots of marten as well around  where he would sleep. Then after the Hudson Bay man  trader came around to buy the furs. But my grandfather,  my boss, was the one to sell. And my father sell.  Maybe it looks like around a thousand. My father would  Say around two thousand, maybe three thousand. My  father would be -- would want gold instead of money.  The fur buyer would go to the bank and get little piece:  of gold, exchange it for certain amounts, one dollar fo]  certain amounts and a hundred dollar for bigger gold,  almost reddish-type gold. He didn't want paper. Didn't  understand the paper.  Q  Mr. Johnson, do you remember how old were you when you  last trapped? When you were out hunting and trapping?  A  Maybe over 18. Around 18. And when I slept alone, I ,  wasn't scared. I was just a Christian at that time.  My heart was right, and I felt lucky. And I honoured  my grandparents.  Q  Did you trap with your own children? Did you hunt and  trap and fish with your own children?  A  Yes.  Q  Did you hunt and trap with your grandchildren?  A  Yes. Little children are lucky. Grandparents would warn  the children only once, and teach them to be lucky and  to trap. They would be listeners and follow what their  grandfather is saying.  MR. RUSH: I think it might be a best time now, Mr. Johnson,  to stop for this morning and we'll now have a break, if  that's okay?  MR. O'BYRNE: That is agreeable.  MR. COHEN: That's fine.  MR. RUSH: We' 11 stop now and have our lunch and come back in  an hour, is that acceptable?  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.55 P.M.  (LUNCHEON RECESS)  UPON RESUMING AT 2.05 P.M.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Mr. Johnson, ready to start again? This is after our 2-87  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  lunch. I wanted to ask you about your house, the house  that you used to live in, the long house that you lived  in in Kitwanga. This is before the fire. I wonder if  you will just tell us what the house looked like, how  big was it, and what did it look like inside?  A  There was a big house. It was a big house. That house  was built by wise people that considered -- there was a  big house, it was a house that was big enough to have a  show in, and it is a big house , a place where we  would have Ada'ox , The chief would have enough room to  have - - enough room for people to stand and come and  listen to the law of our grandfathers. Maybe around  three strong people who looked after the -- these three  people would look after all the things in the house, th  valuable thin s that belong to their grandparents . That is  where the Ada'ox was in. That is where the song was in  as well.  There was Limx 'ooy in that house also. If some- .  body died and that somebody loved, that's where all the  people gathered inside. This is where the laws of our  forefathers would come out from, and this is where all  the big chiefs would gather as well. Just like the power  just like the power of the government as well. Just like  almost similar where the major powers come together. And  they have songs that were inside these houses.  MR. RUSH: What does he say?  THE WITNESS: Am I going to keep on talking now?  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  I wanted to ask you, Mr. Johnson, inside Lelt's house,  was there a house pole?  A  Yes, there was, this is what I mean. Yes, this is what  I was saying, there is power inside the house. There  was no man that we replace, no one that hasn't been  acknowledged yet would come and replace these. There's  songs inside it.  Q  Can you tell me what was -- was there a pole inside the  house and what was on the pole inside the house?  A  This is the Ada'ox, they took the Luutxesxw. We have  relatives in Kispiox and they really know, they have  big names, they have chief names. T'elgamuux(?) , he's a  big chief. Luutxesxw was the name.  There was a war. The war party attacked Kispiox  and this is why the Kispiox name is Kispiox -- that is  why Kispiox named -- that is why the Kispiox Village  is named hiding place. After the war party they had a  feast to count the people who were there and who may be  missing as well. That is why Kispiox is named Kispiox, 2-88  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  hiding place.  The war party captured Luutxesxw, the daughter of  the big chiefs. They took her to the Haida country.  She had marks on her hand indicating that she's a  chief as well. The markings they made on her hand was  made by somebody who knew what they were doing.  The war party took Luutxesxw to the Haida country  and she found a husband there. The village said that  she -- only high chief could marry Luutxesxw because of  the markings on her hand. Not just an ordinary person  would marry her. That's why the Haida said that if she  had a girl the girl would be kept alive, and if it  was a boy the boy would be killed. That is what is on  the totem pole, the pole is standing there and there is  a rock there as well. Canoe. There's songs to that as  well.  That is why Luutxesxw escaped. She killed the  Haidas. She used the canoe that's out front now, the  canoe. The boy would be angry when he was big. Another  woman, that is what is inside our house now. All the ,  chiefs in our house.  She escaped. The Haidas gave her canoe, her friend:  that she knew and she would return home. She paddled  all night. Just in daylight she would hide. She parked  it on a beach just in case the Haidas were behind her.  At night she would start up again and start paddling.  She had on board the head of the Haida chief. That's  what she -- she had it at the front of the canoe and  that' s what you see on the totem pole. We own that.  She left again, at the mouth of the Skeena. That's  where the big sea bear appeared, called Mediigimxwooxhl,  The bear of salt water, and had ears. As the canoe was  parked there, the bear would put his paws right on the  side of the canoe and didn't tip the canoe over.  She was going to go up the Skeena and she missed  it and she went all the way to the Nass River. That's  when she sang, when she was heartbroken. When the child  would cry, she would take the tongue of the chief out  and use it for a soother. That is why they're angry.    WITNESS SINGS SONG  THE WITNESS: This is the song of Luutxesxw. She went to  Kincolith, behind Fort Simpson. She went in the chief  house because she was chief herself. She wasn't to be  placed any old place. She stayed there. The people  there know this as well. She stay there maybe around  a month. Then she left to Gitxatin, where all the -- 2-89  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  where there's lots of ooligans, where she was again take  in by another chief. After about maybe another month  she was there she left for Gitlaxdamiks -- I can't  really remember the name -- New Aiyansh -- where she  again entered the house of a Simooget, a high chief.  Some of our relatives live too. One of the Xsimxsan.  She didn't stay there too long.  There's water running near Gitlaxdamiks. There were  a lot of bears there, really big bears. They were angry,  children of Luutxesxw, they were angry, the children of  Luutxesxw, they were mean. This is where they made a  bow and arrow. They made bows and arrows, and this is  also on the totem poles. This was made by Axgoodim  Haxt'akxw. When there was a show they would use these  bows and arrows and show the people how to use the bows  and arrows.  Axgoodim Haxt'akxw, that is another name that we  have as well, Axgoodim Haxt'akxw. After a while, that's  why the chiefs made the T'a'ots'ip, it may be here somewhere, the T'a'ots'ip. That is why Kitwanga is named  the T'a'ots'ip place. There was a big naxnox that was  living in Kitwanga. There is still that hill here today  I have had lots of visitors over the years want to hear  the story of T'a'ots'ip.  They piled up the land, they piled up the rocks.  When the war party was r- they had signs, people perched  on different mountain peaks and they understood each  other. They had certain signs that they waved around  and before the arrival of. . . .  BY MR. RUSH:  E  Before the arrival of?  A  ... .guns, and when they had guns they had signals for  guns. They were sending messages to get people ready  in the village. They always had people watching, their  own telephone system, and signs. There's just -- there'  still signs up in the valley now where people were  perched inside the ground. They had really big logs,  maybe big hemlock or cedar, really big, about this size.  They made rope, they twisted the rope out of the cedar  trees and they used the hooves of the deer or cariboo  and goats and they hung it around the hill. There may  be about three houses on top, and when the war party was  coming and there was other people hiding, watching, they  had certain signs. Maybe they had for signs.  When the war party came they used the Skeena, the  Haida and the Xsimxsan -- I don't really know -- it was  always people that would get the people ready. As the 2-90  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  people -- the war party were coming, the people here  were getting ready on that hill. That hill is still  standing now. Whooosh, as you're walking underneath  these deer hooves and cariboo hooves, they make that  noise.  The Haidas were going to come and attack. They  want to get those people, there was about three people,  three houses upon the hill, the Haidas want to attack.  They had all their signs ready. As the Haidas were  coming, the soldiers of Kitwanga, they cut off all the  rope and a lot of the rocks rolled down and they're  flattened out by the logs , maybe around 50 people, to  wipe out the Kitwanga, but they didn't do it. They all  killed.  There was a totem pole that showed the flat people  that were on the totem pole. There was Ada'ox on the  totem pole. There was only a few Haidas that were  remaining and they escaped with their canoes. That's how  the story goes. There is lots of people around here  that know that story. That totem pole is all of a sudden  missing, show where the Haidas were flattened.  I think  somebody sold it. Maybe somebody around here, maybe  somebody sold it around here, maybe one of our own  people. That is why they don't come today, don't come  to our feasts. There's songs to this. There's lots of  people that sells totem poles. There's lots in Hazelton  Sergeant looks after, and I almost agree with what she  is doing. People secretly buy totem poles. I don't  agree with that.  Q  Mr. Johnson, there are Lelt's poles still standing over  by where you live?  A  That's right. That's What I'm talking about.  Q  You told us about the sea -- the salt water bear I think  you said,, is the salt water bear that came up and put  his paws onto the canoe, is that on the totem pole?  A  That is the stone that is situated right beside the tote  pole, and that is Luutxesxw. That's on the pole. That  is the song I was telling you about.  Q  Is the bear On the pole too?  A  Yes. Yes, it's on there. Somebody knocked off the head  of the totem stone. Neek't is the name. Neek't is  inside the totem pole.  Q  Inside the totem pole?  A  Right beside the Haida head.  Q  Is Neek't in the canoe on the pole?  A Yes. Neek't is the song of Luutxesxw, yes, that's a  chief -- it's the chief has the name of Hlengwax and  Haxt'akxw, and there's a bow and arrow in one of the 2-91  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  totem poles. Paul Benson was our uncle, our great uncle  They hold territory, that iS our   Q  What is that?  A  That is our Ada'ox. They hold the territory.  Q  How many totem poles does Lelt and his family have that  you remember?  A  K'almoos, the crab, that's the crab of Luulak. There's  Amhalayt. Some Indian people are not very wise. They  burn them sometimes. They burn their Ayuks. Some people  are crazy, they burn but the Ada'ox will live on. That  is what Luulak, that is why they're standing now, Luulak  and T'axts'ox, they always help each other.  MR. RUSH: Take a break to change the tape now, Mr. Johnson.    SHORT RECESS  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Now, Mr. Johnson, can you tell us how long Lelt and  Lelt's house owned the territory and the fishing sites  that you have described here today? How many years have,  you owned that?  A  Long time. Just like the other people. Long time.  When there was the flood. When there was a flood they  used rafts, that's when Lelt and they came. The chief  of our clan, they made rafts, just east of Kitwanga.  That is where Lelt sang the song.    WITNESS SINGS SONG  THE WITNESS: This is Lelt's song.  'Wii Hlengwax always stand  beside. If they don't stand together they will be  missing. That's why he is strong. They're acknowledged  -- they were acknowledged -- there were always two of  them together, that is why they're strong. That's why  there's maybe two, three, four of them together. That's  Why they're strong, just in case anybody wants to do anything.  We came to 'wii Hlengwax where there's lots of children of the  goat, Wakx , where the rocks were coming, were standing and  that' s the song. Gisga'ooxs and Gwinilx,  same place as  Lax'wiit'in, same place as Xsu'wiit'in. That's the name  of the water that runs around by the   tunnel.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Now, Mr. Johnson, When the White man came to your territory, did you tell him about your ownership of the land?  A  Yes, I told him. All of us, all of us, we told him.  We told him. Sometimes there would be just one person  going talk English, maybe young person, son of chief. 2-92  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  I'm telling you that the land belongs to Lelt. Hlengwax.  T'axts'ox. They would talk English and tell.  Q  Who did you tell? What white man did you tell? Do you  remember?  A  Sometimes people who go and just check out the territory  The government would send tHem oUt. That's the way they acted  That's what they would do, send them out and that's when we  would send somebody out to tell them, belongs to the Indian  people.  Q  Do you remember when the railway came to this part of the  country? Did the people at Kitwanga, did they do anything to try and prevent the railway from coming through  their territory?  What does he say?  A  They blocked it. They protested against it. The train  man never paid for the land. All along the Skeena. The  is why the chiefs showed that they're speaking the truth  that's why I supported, I used my button blanket. Maybe  the blanket is about two or $3 00, that is pretty cheap,  maybe more than that, maybe around a thousand. The other  people helped me, other people helped me, they seen the  way I was like. I was getting old. People help each  other all over British Columbia. All the chiefs will  help each other. They still do that today. They still  ask me what the medicine, that's why there'll be the luck  around too, and that will be transferred to the children.  Q Mr. Johnson, When you were a boy do you remember when  the chiefs protested the railway when it first came to  this country? Did they do anything with the surveying?  A  When they surveyed they told them to quit. They didn't  tell the village or ask the village to agree, they never  even talked to the village. But they just did it themselves, they thought they were powerful.  They kicked  around what they've seen. That is why the Indian people  are quite disappointed. And they didn't pay for it.  They didn't pay for their bill.  Q  Do you remember yesterday you b?ld me about the protests,  about pulling the iron posts out, can you tell us what  you remember about that?  A  When the people went to the coast, after people went  fishing, there's extra gangs parked here and they  placed iron posts in the and they tried to  hide them in the ground, just a little bit sticking  OUt of the ground. This is when one lady asked, "What  are you guys doing here?" All the people have gone to  the coast, fishing, what are you guys doing? You  shouldn't be doing anything. Only when people are  here will you do it and only when you ask the people.  They pulled the posts, the women pulled the posts. 2-93  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  The women had a meeting. The people told them that  they would go to jail. The WOmen didn't listen. The  women said they didn't ask the people of the village  and they pulled all the stakes, and they tied them  all together. The people that were from the coast had a  meeting when they did come back. They had a meeting in  the house of Sakxwmhiigook, the head chief of the  village. Tsimshian, the people from Sakxhmhiigook and  other villages and still the same today. You will be  jailed if you pull the iron posts, not the women. The  the iron posts, and they gathered all the iron posts and  they placed them in Sakxwmhiigook's house. When the  extra gang came they had their own. . . .  Q  Their own what?  A  They had their own court, why they had the iron posts  in the village of the big chiefs. This is when the  Indian person who speaks English, almost like Indian  lawyer, asked the question . The question was, did you  agree to have the iron posts in the village and they  questioned Sakxwmhiigook. Sakxwmhiigook said no, nobody  asked. They turned to Hlengwax and asked Hlengwax, do  you, Hlengwax, agree to have iron posts in your village  Hlengwax no, I didn't agree,  The Indian agent was there as well. The Indian  agent from Hazelton. The white people that were there  just took their iron posts and left. I was there.  Q  How old were you?  A  Maybe before 18 years. When I was just learning. Maybe  somebody else knows, maybe Stanley Williams knows as  well. His mother was there. Then they tell their  children.  Q  You were there too though?  A  Yes, I was there. Yes, I was very fast. I always helped  the old people, even in church I do that. When there's  church here I would help with the church. Sometimes I  feed a lot of people at the church. I fished a lot. I  am a high chief, and I had lots of money.  Q  Mr. Johnson    A  (In English) All right, Mister.  Q    were there other times when Lelt or people from  Kitwanga tried to stop the white people from coming onto  the land?  A  I know a lot. Sometimes the law would come, the law  would sometimes come. When the fish commission would  want to go to the Nass River, this is the land of my  fathers.. The Stikine people give it to Amint'a,  Saniik, Atxwmseex. These were the big chiefs. The big 2-94  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  chiefs. The big chiefs of the Stikine. Gela, they had  lots of their own names. There must be lots of them now  The Stikine war party captured one of the daughters of  the Simooget. They killed their mother on the Nass  River and the other almost died and one survived. They  took a little girl and carried them. Txasgadiik is one  of the names of the mountains up in the Nass River. This  was the daughter of Malii, my son Gordon Johnson. His  land is around 50 mile. The white people that destroyed  the logs on the land. And the Simooget has not said  anything.  This girl that they captured married and probably  has children up in the Stikine. That's why there's  still power and authority and the truth will, in the  chiefs of the Kitwancool, chief 'Wiilitsxw was his name,  and his name is in the Indian Office, Hazelton.  Probably the laws of our grandfathers is there.  And the Tribal Council. The Indian people always cared  for little children. They always remember the people  who have died a long time ago. That is why we always  listen to the Tribal Council in Hazelton. That Indian  people always care.  Q  Mr. Johnson, have white people interfered with your  trapping and hunting?  A  They don't care. They just made line traps that  belonged to the Indian people. They didn't ask us.  They always get mad when they see us. When they see  US there first living. The wealthy land. Where we  get our food: from. And they take and just throw most  away. I have seen this myself. All the little cabins,  they take the bulldozers and push them over and burn  them. There's Ada'ox in what they're destroying.  (In English) That's right, I don't want to lie.  That is why I'm talking, that is why I remember.  Q  Has there been logging on Lelt's land and the land of  Lelt's house?  A  Yes. They had poles. They made logs. They had Lelt's  land just west of here.They never -- the village never  agreed to it, they disagreed with it. The council disagreed with it. They put a fence up just to stop the  logging coming in. The trucker was angry, he want to  pass through the gate. He didn't care for what the  Indian people were saying, and this is still the same  today. The poles don't tell -- all the logs from Lelt's  territory go to Terrace, they don't come here.  Q  Did you ever give anyone permission to log on your  territory, Mr. Johnson?  A  No, no. 2-95  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  Did anyone    A  We want a piece of the log. We want a piece of the  logs, we want to come back to the village. The white  people never listen. They told us to get out.  Q  Are there any mines or any mining that goes on in  Lelt's territory or the territory of Lelt's house?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  MR. OBYRNE: Perhaps, Mr. Rush, we could get the Translator  to translate what he was saying? He's putting it  different to your question.  Mr. RUSH: He was giving an example -- you were giving an  example of mine? A sample of gold, I think?  My question was: was there any mining that went  on in Lelt's territory? If he doesn't understand he  should say so and I'll try to put it another way.  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: They're probably still looking around now.  Probably they find gold. If find gold, they put it --  keep it the glass. The land of my fathers, the land up  in Meziadin, that is where you find some gold.  It was the white man that came from Boston and  came up the Nass River. Maybe he came from around the  Stewart area to look around the area. There was a  preacher and the Indian Agent that said, no person  from Boston would come around,look around for any  gold, and was told that he should go back, and there  is some gold up in Meziadin. That's a little -- there  is a place right around the Nass River where he wash  for gold. He just dip in the water and sand, and the  skillet, and he just washed the gold. They had certain  planks and some kind of saw what they used too. There  is still gold on that territory. Just wash it and the  gold will just remain where they washed it. It was  heavy.  (In English) I remember.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q Did you, Mr. Johnson, or anybody from Lelt's house ever  give any miners or people prospecting any permission to  go on your territory?  A  No, they have their own part and what they do. They  say, they always say that there may be big jobs there  and the guys would work. If the big chiefs ask what  they're doing. When we ask what they're doing, they  say if we find lots of gold then you guys will work here. 2-96  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q Mr. Johnson, Were you part of a protest that happened  last year with the railway track? Did you participate  in the blockade?  A  Yes, I was there. Yes, I want to hear. But I went to  hear the truth. I want to be there and I want to be  ready. Sometimes people fight and people have to be  ready. We have to be ready. I was there. I used my  blanket. I used -- I had a drum. There's a big fire,  big drum. Right along the tracks. Some of the other  villagers came, Gitsegukla(?) people came. Different  people came. Sometimes the trains stopped and our  preacher was there as well. Bob McLeod was there and  he seen it as well. We always had meetings and people  heard. It was cold that time, sitting by the fire.  Stanley Williams was there as well. He's a Christian  man.  MR. RUSH: What's he saying?  THE WITNESS: He is a Christian man as well. He works in the  church. Nice carpentry.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Nice carpentry too?  A  Stanley Williams.  Q  What is Stanley Williams' Gitksan name?  A  Gwusgyen.  Q  Gwusgyen. You live at Kitwanga, that's where your house  is, isn't it?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: Yes, this is where I belong. Gwusgyen is  Gitsegukla., That's where they belong. That's where  they have their own land. They have their own ada'ox,  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  How far are the CNR railway tracks from your house?  A  Just behind my house.  Q  Can you tell us why you went up there and went to where  the people were having their fire and participated in  the protest?  A  They wanted me to be there. I am big chief here and I  have to agree with some of the things that the people  say. That's why I'm there. They said, come on. People  took me to the area and I heard some of the people talking English. Not very much.  Q  Now, what happened at the end of the protest? What did  the CNR do, do you remember?  A  No, I can't remember. All I wanted them to hear what we 2-97  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  had to say. They must pay the village, they must pay th  Simgiiget of the village. And all the other villages as  well.  Q  Did you tell them about your land?  A  Yes, I did.  MR. RUSH: I just have a few more questions I may or may not  ask. I think this may be an appropriate time to adjourn  for the afternoon, it is 3.30. I think if we can start  again tomorrow I'll just have a few questions.  MR. COHEN: Do you want to get our starting time on the record  or do you want to discuss it on the record?  MR. RUSH: Perhaps 1.30?  MR. O'BYRNE: One-thirty.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Mr. Johnson, We are going to stop now, we have had a  pretty full day. I would like to suggest we start again  tomorrow at 1.30, is that all right with you?  A  Oh yes, I here 1.30. That is what they call T'axhlekxw.  MR. RUSH: Tomorrow at 1.30. Thank you.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3 . 35 P.M.  TO BE RESUMED AT 1. 30 P.M. , TUESDAY, 28 OCTOBER, 1986  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  A. Veronica Duffy (Ms)  (formerly Harper)  Official Court Reporter  AVD/jg-Nov. 10/86      B.CS.R.A. #263  REPORTER'S NOTE: Proceedings did not resume Tuesday, 28  October, 1986 due to absence of The  Interpreter. Adjourned over to Wednesday,  29 October, 1986 at 10.00 a.m. 2-98  JOHNSON, F.  Proceedings  FRED JOHNSON, a witness on  behalf of the Plaintiffs,  previously affirmed:  GLEN WILLIAMS, Gitksan  Interpreter, previously  affirmed:    UPON COMMENCING 10 . 15 A.M. , 29 OCTOBER 1986  MR. RUSH: This will begin the Commission testimony of Mr.  Johnson for October 29th -- just before we get underway,  I have a few more questions of you, Mr. Johnson -- I  just wanted to say a couple of things.  On the last day that we were taking this Commission  evidence, on October 2 7th, Mr. O'Byrne drew to my  attention the fact that some of the evidence given by  Mr. Johnson didn't appear to be translated. Yesterday,  the 28th of October, we checked the video tape and I  think we satisfied ourselves that so far as the point  of objection, that there was no difficulty with the  translation at that point.  I wanted to say that I think it was appropriate,  Darrell, to raise it and I hope you will raise any other  difficulties that you might have in terms of translation  when they arise, so that we can deal with them as they  do arise.  The other thing that you raised, however, was that  it appeared that some of the English words had not been  translated or had not been recorded but it did appear on the  video.  I think we should make clear to everyone that Mr.  Williams' efforts here are to translate but, having  talked with Mr. Williams, I have asked him if he will  try in addition to translating to say the English words  that Mr. Johnson uses. In addition to that I think,  Veronica, you can use your best ear as well to try to  pick up any English words that Fred uses, so that there  is more than just Glen and myself trying, and others  here trying to pick up the English because I think it's  hard enough when Mr. Johnson switches from Gitksan to  English. If there is any difficulty in getting that  perhaps we can just interrupt and get the English words  that are spoken, but I would like to be certain that in  addition to the translated words that we also get the  English spoken by Mr. Johnson as sometimes he does go  back and forth between the two. So with that I would  like to proceed.  I don't know if you want to add anything to that, 2-99  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Mr. O'Byrne?  MR. O'BYRNE: My position, Mr. Rush, if the witness speaks in  English perhaps it could be repeated by counsel or perhaps put to him again so the opportunity would be there  to have the English phrase put on the record.  MR. RUSH: I don't object to doing that except in the situation  where the flow of the statements may be interrupted but  I think if we are all here trying to get these English  words as well, I think amongst us all we should be able  to do that. If something is not recorded I would ask you  to interrupt me and I will try my best to get it down .  With that introduction, Mr. Johnson, I am now ready  to ask you a few more questions.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH, CONTINUED:  Q  You told us last September that your brother Harry,  'Wiilitsxw, was the person who held the name of Lelt  before you; can you tell me who held the name of Lelt  before Harry?  A  Our grandfather, Lelt, my brother -- my mother's brother.  That's where the Ada'ox was, ends. That's where the  totem pole is, that's where the story ends. There's  books in Ottawa.  (In English) On this country.  THE INTERPRETER: I missed those other parts.  OFF THE RECORD  BY MR . RUSH :  Q  Mr. Johnson, can you tell us do you know who your  successor is going to be? Have you chosen who is going  to succeed you as Lelt?  A  There's people standing, there's people seated for that  position. They're seated already. We have relatives in  Kispiox, and they know, they know, they really know.  Q  But do you know yet --do you know yourself who your  successor is going to be? Have you chosen him?  A  I know a lot of people like to be chief, that's who  will take it.  (In English) There's got to be expense with it.  You don't take for nothing. Many thousands of dollars.  Like before, many years ago, for everybody.  Q  For everybody. Yesterday or the day before yesterday  you told us about all of Lelt's territory, Lelt's hunting territory and Lelt's fishing sites; can you tell  us who else knows about Lelt's territory and fishing  sites?  A  This is the only one. We have brothers. 2-100  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  (In English) Big expense, money already.  We have Xsagaldiiest, we have big expenses as well.  (In English) The Indian agent already know.  The Indian Agent will know already. At the Indian  Office.  Q  Do you know Guxsan?  A  Yes, and I know and the other place, where Guxsan.  Q  Does Guxsan know about your territory?  A  (In English) That's right.  Yes, he knows.  (In English) He taught me good. Taught my relations, my Ye'e. Will you please go open his house, goes  up there, Kitsegukla big chief.  Q  Maybe, Mr. Johnson, it might be easiest if you speak in  Gitksan to Glen.  The other question I would like to ask here, Arthur  Matthews Senior, what is Arthur Matthews Senior's Gitksan  name?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: The one that is living here. Ts'iiwa. He's  Kitwancool. He is married here, that's why he's here,  he's got children here. He was married to a chief, thai  is why he lives on the territory. They have big property  they make it strong. They help.  (In English)  Leave for the children.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  What is Mr. Matthews' Gitksan name?  A  Ts'iiwa.  Q  Ts'iiwa. Does Ts'iiwa know about    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Mr. Johnson, Ts'iiwa, does Ts'iiwa know abOUt your  territory?  A  He knows, yes, he really knows. This is where he was  raised. They have names. Biinaxuu was one of their  relatives and they know. The young people know.  Q  Now, you told us about Wilnahloo. You told us about  this on Monday. Can you tell us what the word  Wilnahloo means?  A  On the mountain. Above the station. Where the berries  are and groundhog.  Q  Does wilnahloo have an English name?  A  Little valleys, Wilnahloo. 2-101  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  Does Wilnahloo mean a mountain with little valleys in  it?  A  Almost like this. There's a hole here. Hahliigyoo is  here. Same here. That is why the mountain's name is  Wilnahloo. That's where there's lots of berries and  groundhog. The property of the families.  (In English) Still good, okay.  Q  Now, you mentioned the other day as well the place of  Anxt'imi'it, can you tell us what that means?  A  Lots of food. Lots of T'imi'it.  Q  Lots of what?  THE INTERPRETER:  T'imi'it.  THE WITNESS: There's lots of Xhleex you mix with ooligan  grease. Just like ice cream. Lots of bears. Lots of  porcupines. And it's beautiful there. That is  Hlengwax, our Wilnat'ahl. I think that's the father of  my father.  (In English) Yes, that's right, I believe.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  What is the meaning of T'imi'it?  A  Those little red berries. There's white inside. They  have little teeth in it. They're really small. They're  really small.  Q  Okay.  A  Lots of food there. Different types. Nobody will  starve there.  Q  Is it the small berries that you mix with the ooligan  grease?  A   (In English) Sometimes, oh yes. Sometimes mix. Yes.  MR. RUSH: We've changed our mike now. Is that better,  Michael? Changed one mike and got another.  OFF THE RECORD  BY MR . RUSH :  Q  Now, Mr. Johnson, you also told us about a place called  Gisga'ooxs. Was there a village at Gisga'ooxs?  A  There was one there a long time ago. Then they moved  here. They moved here. This was a nice place, houses  were situated nicely here. Everybody agreed to move.  Q  How long ago was there a village at Gisga'ooxs?  A  After the flood.  Q  Mr. Johnson, Can you tell me, did you ever go to school  as a boy?  A  The people who were the educators, they wanted us to go  to school, the son of my father's --my father refused.  My father refused because we may lose some of the 2-102  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  traditions and some of the work we have to do. Everybody else went to school. I honoured my father.  I  always try to learn how to speak English.  Q  Do you belong to a church?  A  That's where my father, my brother was. He was in there  (In English) Honourary captain.  That's where I am today.  (In English)  I am a preacher.  The people know, the preachers know, and the bishop  knows. They called me here, they wanted me here, that  is why I would stand for this religion, and that I would  be involved in discussions for the village and that I  would have to learn this. What church? What is the  church that you belong to?  A  What is the name of this church here? That is the  church that I belong to.  Q  The church in Kitwanga?  A  Yes. Big nice church. Nice mission man that time from  Toronto, I guess. Mr. Price. Named Mr. Price.  Q  Mr. Johnson, how old were you when you lost your eyesight?  A  Pretty near three years now since I was blind. Somewhere  around three years ago.  Q  Three years? How did you lose your eyesight?  A  Fire. Somebody started a fire.  (In English)  Somebody burn them and he don't know,  Nobody want to put it out. The village wanted me  to be charged and put in jail. The preacher didn't  agree with what the people were saying. Fred Johnson  would never start a fire, don't listen to what the  people say.  Q  Now, in this fire, when was the fire? How long ago was  the fire?  A  There was a fire and I went to the hospital. I went to  the hospital, I almost died. I always prayed to be  well. I had a dream when I was on the bed in Hazelton.  I was lying there, my breath was not very good. There  was a man standing right beside my bed. There was a mar  standing there and he said "Hello, Fred", and had a  flower there. He showed how --he had bread in his  hands and he was showing the bread. That is what my  dream was, and I was encouraged.  Q  Mr. Johnson, how many years ago? How many years ago did  the fire happen?  A  Maybe around three. That is why the doctor cared for me  The doctor send me to Vancouver. They put me into the  General Hospital in Vancouver. They helped me in various  ways in the hospital. There was different people that 2-103  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  knew me and visit me. They visited me. The Indian  agent visit me as well. They came from Hazelton. His  name was Mr. McFarlane.  Q  Now, Mr. Johnson, I want to ask you again about your  territories and your fishing sites. I want to ask you  who uses your fishing sites and territory today?  A  The person that I gave permission to use, Mrs. Gary  Luulak and T'axts'ox use it. They're young and they can  use it. And they're strong. They should use it. My  children use it too. My grandchildren.  Q  Have you given permission to any person who was not a  member of your house to use your territory?  A  We gave the word, that I know them, and they have to use  it. They have papers now that I have signed and I put  my X to.  Q  Have you let anybody who isn't a Gitksan use your  territory?  A  No. The person I gave it to must know because they're  using it. They're using it. I can't just go and tell  anybody to use it, just one.  Q  In 1915, Mr. Johnson, there was a Commission that called  itself the McKenna-McBride Commission; do you know if  any of your ancestors spoke to the Commission and told  them about your land?  A  McBride? Is that white man?  Q  Yes.  A  When did they come?  Q  1915.  A  How many?  Q  There were I think four Commissioners.  A  When?  Q  I don't know the date or the month but the year was  1915.  A  They went west, I was, my grandchild was still very  young. He has one son.  I want to encourage him and I  want him to look after my grandchildren, and I accompanied him to the coast and I helped him with some of  the expense. I helped this man. I helped him, just to  encourage him to set new direction for his life, then I  got sick. I was in the hospital in Prince Rupert. I  was in the hospital for about three weeks, maybe two  weeks. My grandchild always looks after me and visited  me. And his wife, they always came to visit me. They  always asked me for advice, I don't leave them alone.  Still the same today.  (In English) Thank you.  Q  Mr. Johnson, when you were young, when you were in your  20's, do you remember any white people coming to 2-104  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Kitwanga and asking the chiefs about their questions  about their land?  A  The people that came that wanted Ada'ox, I don't know  where they came from. Maybe from Ottawa. They lived  at Little Spring Water. They had an interpreter, just  like this one. Gwusga'ii his name is, Simooget name.  He was Tsimshian.  Q   Was his name Beynon, Willy Beynon?  A   There was an Ada'ox, just about British Columbia and  about the story.  Q   I have read SOme Of his StOries. SOme Of them.  A   (In English) Show the family what kind of country.  This is what I wanted to say. Is that all right?  Q   Yes.  A  They found gold, at Lome Creek, big gold. There was  lots of people there. I was very small. There's a mar  there and there's still a house there. They find gold  there. The houses were full of food. They had bacon  strung up. The big -- found lots of big gold on our  territory.  (In English) I remembered that last night.  Q   Okay.  A   (In English)  I remember to say.  Q   Where is Lome Creek, Mr. Johnson?  A  This side of Doreen.  Q   This side of Doreen?  A  Not far from Doreen. Lots of people down there.  (In English) Maybe something to do.  We have mountain, Haa'kxw. There's Ada'ox. They're  in those books. All of us are like that.  Q   Who i s Haa'kxw.  A  That's the guy that doesn't come around so much and he  hardly comes, hardly attends, and he is sick. Our  nephew.  Q   What is the name of the mountain at Doreen?  A  Gwusagat.  Q   Gwusagat ?  A  Gwusagat . There ' s Ada'ox for it. Headdress of a frog  and there's glass here. Glass, and there's Ada'ox for  it. Maybe it's in that book I was talking about.  Twisted cedar bark, the bark of a cedar. They warn  it up a little bit. There's trails for goats there.  They set traps for goats and he lived down below. He  camped right below, right below the goat trap and in the  morning he looks up in the mountain and looks at the trap  and, all of a sudden, he seen a white thing on the trap.  He said, "I've trapped something, I've caught a goat".  Gokhl was the name of the goat. Then he went up by the 2-105  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  trap and there was a big rock. There was big glass,  just like glass, that's what was on the trap. There's a  song for it. Maybe in that book. The one I was talking  about where Gwusga'ii was talking. They cut big glass.  (In English)  Pretty tired today. I remember.  Thank you.  Q  What did they do with the big glass they cut?  A They placed it in that Amhalayt, and Gaidem Ganaaw' they  call it, hat of the frog.  Q  Hat of the frog?  A  They burn, the Gaidem Ganaaw' , that glass could be  exchanged.  Q Mr. Johnson, you have just told us an Ada'ox, is the  telling of Ada'ox, is that one way that you say that  you have jurisdiction and ownership of your territory?  A  That's right. That's our mark. Different things. The  place.  (In English) Big witness for everybody all over  the world.  Q Are there other ways in which you tell people about your  ownership of territory and your jurisdiction? Your right  to make decisions over your territory?  A  There's authority in the person that had that, who had  the glass inside the hat. When the Simooget died, that  Xsagatdiiest and there 's this body just sitting there, and  they used canoes a long time ago and our relatives came  and they were just alone and they stay with us. They  invited people to the funeral and they want to show  people how authority's placed, and there was Gubihlgan  there. They had Gubihlgan, they had relatives and they  had meeting. People came to the funeral, they were  going to bury. Lelt went to help. T'axts'ox went to  help and others. All the authorities within Hlengwax.  They buried, the statement was made that they were going  to give a blanket and it was given to T'axts'ox. This  blanket, our relatives, our Wilnat'ahl. We gave them  land because it was this person's property at that place  there. And there's lots of people there. They acknowledged it and confirmed it.  MR. RUSH: We'll just stop there.    SHORT RECESS  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  Before we ran out of the tape, Mr. Johnson, you had  told us about Gubihlgan; I wonder if you could tell us  who Gubihlgan is or was?  A  I think he is from Anduduun, around Gitsalasxw.  I think 2-106  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  so.  Q  The territory that you were talking about in the Ada'ox  that you told us, where is that territory?  A  Xsagaldiiest? Is that the one? Oliver Creek is there.  Small Oliver Creek.  (In English)  I think that's it, mark in that  bridge that crosses the river.  There's lots of goat there. There's gold in the  mountains.  (In English)  Indian gold.  Q  You told us that at the funeral that people came to the  funeral when they buried Gubihlgan, did they transfer  property there? Was there new -- did a new chief take  the property?  A  They gave it to T'axts'ox. All the chiefs that were at  the funeral that they gave the land to and the people  heard them. There's an indicator.  Q  Was this for payment for the burial?  A  Yes. For the payment of funeral. They really valued  when somebody dies and they have a mark, that is still  the same today. Sometimes they give land. Even if it  is different land. Even the women go with the land  as well. There's big money spent and they give them  the land and other Indian people hear of this. And  the chief stands up and he agrees, he stands where he  is seated from. This is our law. There's songs to it.  Q  How important are the songs? Are they the Limx'ooy?  A  This is what is in as if you are happy.    WITNESS SINGS SONGS  THE WITNESS: This is the crying song.  WITNESS SINGS SONG  THE WITNESS: There's somebody speaking and everybody is quiet  The chiefs are quiet.  WITNESS SINGS SONG  THE WITNESS: That's the way the crying song. We value this,  the other side of the village values this, or 'Niidilx.  There's lots of Limx'ooy for the land. The frogs.  They really value this..  This is their Antok.  They really value land, nobody just walks over there  and burns it. Just like    ' When somebody needs  something, two or three go out and get something, and  there's another song. 2-107  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief  Mr. Rush    WITNESS SINGS SONG  THE WITNESS: That's another song.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  What does that SOng mean?  A  He loves the land. Wilnat'ahl are wealthy, they love  the land, it's beautiful. He accompnies somebody on  the land. They always accompany somebody to go on the  land and look at the land. And don't claim it. He  doesn't claim it.  Q  You told us about the Ada'ox, what is the Ada'ox?  A  The truth. The truth. That's on the totem poles.  That's what's in those books. They're in Ottawa. In  the house of law. Better show your children, and makes  new man happy when he reads it. For generations it's  truth too. They have to speak the truth.  Q  How important is the Ada'ox for your    A  The truth. The truth. No foolish.  (In English) No foolish, everybody feel it sometimes I think.  Q  Mr. Johnson, the Ayuks, can you tell us what is Ayuks?  A  After you spend lots of things they acknowledge, the  other Simgiiget acknowledge. Nobody comes and claims  it. That's his. Simgiiget. Amhalayts story. And  people agree.  Q  This is important for your claim to the territory which  you own?  A  (In English) Many thousand. Many thousand.  Lots of thousands of Gwiikxw. Groundhog.  (In English)  Some kind of food too, just like  holesale, my golly.  (In English) Don't listen for any foolish here.  The people more bad. They do good. Settle up quick.  Thank you.  I love this man. He's good man.  Q  Now, Mr. Johnson, do you talk about Ayuks at the feast?  A  That's right.  Q  Why do you do that?  A  The truth. He has to show the people at the feast and  the people have to agree. They have to acknowledge.  (In English) Maybe in the law book now. Nobody  did work.  Q  When a chief -- when a chief pays the expenses at the  feast does that validate the ownership to the chief's  territory?  A  That's right. There's no man that can stand around that  doesn't have any money.  (In English) Give them more healthy life. Show 2-108  JOHNSON, F.  In Chief (Mr. Rush)  Cross Exam (Mr. O'Byrne)  everything.  MR. RUSH: Were you able to get the last?  THE REPORTER:  "Give them more healthy life. Show everything".  THE WITNESS: Ayuks is something you always wore, just like my  jacket.  (In English) My tea is warm now.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  What is your Ayuks, Mr. Johnson?  A  I'm chief. I'm honoured for what my grandfather and my  uncle have said to me, and if my mother is big chief I  hear her, what she has to say, and I am lucky if I hear  the language. Ayuks, Amhalayts, blanket.  Q  Are Ayuks on your blanket?  A  That's right.  Q  Did you show us your Ahuks when you wore the blanket?  A  That's right. That's right. That's my mark.  (In English) That's why I talking.  Q  That's Why I'm talking?  A   (In English) That's right.  MR. RUSH: If we can just pause there, I think that may complete  what I have to ask Mr. Johnson in direct.  MR. O'BYRNE: You want to go off the record for a minute?  MR. RUSH: Yes, stop there.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. RUSH: Mr. Johnson, this is still Mr. Rush speaking, and I  finished the questions I'm going to ask on direct  examination, and now Mr. O'Byrne, for the provincial  government, is going to be asking you some questions.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q  Mr. Johnson, as you have heard, my name is Darrell  O'Byrne and I am here on behalf of the Attorney-General'  Department of the Province of British Columbia. I would  like first of all to ask you about some of the answers  you gave to Mr. Rush this morning involving your territories and fishing sites.  You told Mr. Rush that you gave two people  permission to go on your land, who are those two people?  A  Yes. It will be a chief. That's what I'm like now. I  am not going to live very much longer.  I am close to  -- I am about 90 years old. That's why I get ready.  I don't want to lose what my grandfathers have given me.  Our claim of our grandfathers.  I want the person that  has children to live there, that is why the country will  be nice. They must educate themselves. 2-109  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  Q  What are the names Of the two people that you gave  permission to go on your land?  A  Mrs. Luulak is her name. Mrs. Gary. My own grandchild.  That's the wife of my grandchildren. And T'axts'ox,  same thing. T'axts'ox was her name. I marked it  already. I wrote it already. I crossed it. I wrote  down and I gave it. I know they will take over after  I leave. There will be no trouble because they will  know.  Q  What are the English names of these two people please?  A  You know who -- Sanson, our own relatives.  'Wii Hlengwax. They used to live in Hazelton. They  want to live here. That is why I gave them the land.  And I didn't want people to chase them away. The same  thing with T'axts'ox, I can't remember his English name.  Who is Mel Morgan's wife's name? They have lots of  children, they're Frogs.  Q   Is that person whose name you can't remember, Mel  Morgan's wife?  A  Yes. Who is their English name, I can't remember.  Q  Is there somebody you can ask to find out her English  name?  A  When?  Q  Over the lunch break perhaps?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS  MR. O'BYRNE  THE WITNESS  After a while?  Certainly.  Sure.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q  You signed a paper giving them permission to go on your  land, is,that correct?  A  (In English) That's right.  Q  What does that    A  (In English) My own hand. My right hand.  Q  What does that paper say?  A  That's who will be in that position in my Wilnat'ahl.  T'axts'ox, the wife of Mel Morgan. And the wife of  Gary. Luulak's wife. They have their own ahuks. They  have their amhalayt. Crab is their ahuks. I seen this  big house, big house of chiefs. There's people seated.  When there's very little money at that time, there was  a song. This is how he used his money. And it fell on  the floor. People heard it, it was loud. And people  were seated there.  Q  Who   A  Luulak, this is the way he is, twisting. 2-110  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  Q   Mr. Johnson, Who drew this paper up?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: I told them to write it down. I told them, they  would write it themselves.  I am in difficult situation,  nobody takes me around. It's hard for me to find somebody. I have lots of relatives. And they're not here  today when I'm poor. They should be seated beside me  and listen.  (In English) And keep quiet.  You people don't do that today. It's hard.  There's no policemen in our village and there's wrongs  that are being carried out. There's no -- they don't  look after their chiefs, all over the ,  River. The  Indian agent's house looks really weak. Why do they do  that?  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q  What did you tell them to write on the paper?  A  There's no law here. There's no policemen. Never once  did the policeman come to visit me. I am good man. Set  how poor I am.  Q  Mr. Johnson, do you understand my question? I want to  know what was on the paper that you signed about your  lands and territories?  A  I honoured the grandfathers. I honoured their claims,  their claim still a long time ago.  (In English)  I still remember and honour.  Q  Mr. Johnson, do you understand what I am asking for?  A  What?  Q  I Want to know What is On the paper that you signed  about your lands and fishing sites?  A  They will carry on the strength and power of the land.  They will hold the truth, the Ada'ox, they will hold it.  Q  Is that What is Written On the paper?  A  That's right. That's right.  Q  When did you sign this paper?  A  When I knew the way I felt when I really couldn't do  very much. These people looked after me. They fed me.  They felt sorry for me and they knew I was related to  them. I gave them a place to live. The lot of chief,  where I am living now, the lot of Hlengwax of Lelt.  Q  How long ago did you do this?  A  Little bit long time ago, maybe two years ago. Lot.  That will be good for the children, they will learn.  Q  Who has this paper now?  A  Themselves. Mrs. Gary. And Mrs. Mel. 2-111  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  Q   Is this paper registered in any way that you know of?  A  Those people are smart enough, they know what to do.  They were in school. Mel Morgan's wife is smart, she's  been through high school.  Q   What are they allowed to do with your land?  A   They will get fish. That will be their land.  Q   I don't have any more questions about the land for right  now, Mr. Johnson, I want to talk about something else.  Would you translate that?  Mr. Johnson, you know about the court action that  is going on between yourself as Lelt and the provincial  government and the federal government, do you?  A   I've heard of it.  Q   Did you    A  Just hear.  (In English)  I don't know what action it mean. I  still true in my life and everybody know in this country.  I am not ashamed to say it.  MR. O'BYRNE: May I have a translation of that please?  THE INTERPRETER:  You want Gitksan?  MR. O'BYRNE: No, in English.  THE INTERPRETER:  I didn't. . . .  MR. O'BYRNE: I would like a read-back.  THE REPORTER: Answer:  "I don't know what action it mean.  I  still true in my life and everybody know in  this country. I am not ashamed to say it."  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q   Mr. Johnson, is the first time you found out about the  lawsuit when you came here to this hearing in September  and now in October to give this evidence?  A   In Smithers? Where? I just heard.  Q   Did you give permission to somebody to sue the Provincial  Government and the Federal Government about your land?  A  Did I give power?  (In English)  I honour for my clan. I honour  grandfather. They learn school. The big word of the  big man. Everybody like that. Maybe you too.  Q   Mr. Johnson, did you give someone permission to sue the  Provincial Government and the Federal Government with  regard to your land?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: I am just about ready to die that is why I put  a Will.  (In English) The Will of righteous from the Lord  Jesus, from in heaven, and there be for everybody. 2-112  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  You know what I'm understand to say.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q  Did you have a meeting of your house and decide that  you would sue the governments about your land?  A  We had a meeting when I was going to make a will and we  chose, I told them to write it down. We want more. To  be firm. The government will be firm.  (In English) The government, about the Queen.  Queen look after his family and his grandchildren.  That's the law. I hear this....big man.  Q  Can anybody other than you    A  Nobody can blame me, I think.  Q  Can anybody other than you    A  Old man here.  Q  Can anybody other than you as Lelt sue the government  in regard to the land of Lelt?  A  (In English) Well, I'm not too much worried. They  loved me, Mrs. Gary. They loved me, Mrs. Mel.  They have to come here and listen, Mrs. Gary and  Mrs. Mel.  Q  Can Mrs. Gary and Mrs. Mel sue the government in regard  to the land of Lelt?  A   (In English) Anybody, see how the best thing.  MR. O'BYRNE: I'm sorry, was there an answer to that question?  THE INTERPRETER:  No.  MR. O'BYRNE: Would you put the question to him again?  We can get a read-back.  THE WITNESS: The man has to speak. When somebody just about  to die, they must take the power, the authority. Same  thing with somebody else too.  MR. O'BYRNE: I note that it's 12.00 o'clock, Mr. Rush, and I  propose to stop now and have lunch.  MR. RUSH: That's fine with me. We'll reconvene, what, in an  hour?  MR. O'BYRNE: At one o'clock.  MR. RUSH:  Good.  MR. O'BYRNE: Perhaps you could tell Mr. Johnson that.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.00 NOON  UPON RESUMING AT 1.00 P.M.  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION 2-113  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  MR. O'BYRNE: Mr. Johnson, resuming after lunch.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. O'BYRNE (CONTINUED) :  Q  I was asking you before lunch if you had told somebody  from your house to commence this lawsuit against the  provincial government? Translate that please?  A  I was positioned by my big chiefs. Another chief just  like me, about the story, about British Columbia. About  for every chief too. And he know. And the government  too. Not only this time.  Q  Did you tell another chief to speak for Lelt in this  matter?  A  The Simooget will talk.  (In English) Just like at this table, and it's  going to be right. One chief belongs table about property, the Lord allowed talk already in the Bible, good  story for you and for me yet. No blame. You know,  different things worked. I feel it.  Q  Do you speak on behalf of the House of Lelt?  A  All of us big chiefs.  Q  Who else besides you speaks for the House of Lelt?  A  All the other chiefs in Lelt's house and there's witnesses in this country.  (In English)  I'm not a stranger in this country.  About life, about the generation. All right,interpret.  Q  Is there anybody other than you that can speak about the  lands of Lelt?  A  The same chiefs, Hlengwax witness T'axts'ox, Luulak,  and Luutxesxw story.  (In English) Totem pole in the court somewhere in  Ottawa. My relations. I thought keep quiet, keep  settled up, sounded good.  Q  You said "keep quiet", were you told to keep quiet?  A  Just swallow. Swallow. Good things as this country  need not only me, the other chiefs, Kitwancool,  Kitsegukla, way up the Kispiox. Moricetown. Some place  too. This law, he held it, not only me, not only you,  everybody know.  Q  Were you told to keep quiet, did you say, Mr. Johnson?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: To speak.  BY MR. O'BYRNE :  Q  Was there a meeting of the House of Lelt where you were  authorized by the members of that house to speak on their  behalf in this matter? 2-114  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  A  We always meet. We always meet.  Q   Did you meet and discuss suing the government?  A  We don't agree with anybody just taking our land.  It  has to be transferred to our children.  (In English) Good family, that is what I hear, whit  man talk.  Q  Was there a meeting of your house where that was talked  about?  A  We always meet.  Q   How often do you meet?  A  We have meeting, we invite people. And we tell people  our land and we use the Amhalayt. We use expensive  clothing. Big blanket, whoever is big chief has long  robe and it has abalone shells in it. Some of us, we have  earrings. Sometimes it's money, it's like a snake, for  young person to wear it it indicates she's chief, that':  what my father did. He was chief. His children will be  chiefs as well.  Q   Why are you suing the government, Mr. Johnson?  A   I don't know why there is a court going to be open when,  there are things that are right and some of the people  some people in Kitwancool don't even know.  (In English) Any place too, Moricetown.  Q   Are you saying you don't know why you're suing the  government?  A   The government wants the land. You want to take it away,  and make us poor and my generation.  (In English) I got ear to hear. I got head too.  Everybody look out captain.  Everything, interested, go same way and the chief,  and they like the land.  Q   So you think the government wants to take your land away,  is that right?  A  That's what they say. The white people don't care, they  don't care even when they cut trees. They follow me,  they follow on my land, and they push away my land and  they burn it. This is our property. We cry. We starve.  And our mother, my grandfather, we don't say anything.  Simgiiget didn't want us to say anything because white  man' s really dangerous.  Q   Are you then suing the government to prevent them from  taking your land away?  A   The white man wants us to go to court and they want us  to go to court.  Q   You don't want to go to court, Mr. Johnson?  A   I don't see why our Indian people have made a mistake.  They must write down on paper, the Indian people are  right, and our children will be government. We'll enjoy 2-115  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  what the creator has given to us.  Q   You have told Mr. Rush that you own certain lands.  Would you please tell me what you mean by "own"?  A  The Lord gave it to us. He gave it to us. The Lord  has shown his power. Whoever plays with the Lord they  will be reprimanded. We are scared of the Lord's laws  and the Lord will .re-act, there will be no more food.  Q   Is that what you understand to mean as owning the land?  A   Yes, that's right. That's what I was told when I was  small.  (In English) Before or eight years, oh, maybe  after eight years.  By my father. Mother. Other people know just as  well, they're the same. They educate us.  Q   Can you sell your land?  A   If all the chiefs agree then we will.  Q  Who could decide if Lelt's land could be sold?  A  These chiefs. If that's the case, if all the chiefs  agree together, the Lord will be happy. The educators,  the people who looked after the law. They must stamp  it and the Simgiiget will stamp it as well. There will  be happy and everybody will learn. Nobody . Will murder  anybody.  Q   Is there anybody else other than Lelt who can sell Lelt'  land?  A  We must agree, we must all agree, and then the other  Simgiiget will. They'll know what is left, and that's  what will be good for them too.  Q   When you say "We must agree", do you mean the members  of the House of Lelt?  A  That's if the Indian people agree.  Q   Who of the people in Kitwanga, for example, have to  agree?  A  Yes, with the other villagers as well. If they say,  if they agree then it's good and everybody will learn.  Q   will the people in Kitwancool have to agree?  A   That's right.  Q   The people in Kitwancool don't agree with you suing the  government, isn't that right?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: They say the same thing as me.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q   What Kitwancool Chief Says the same thing as you?  A  Xamlaxyeltxw. Luuxoon. Big chief, they have totem  poles and they have stories in Kitwancool. 2-116  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  Q   What are their English names please?  A   Solomon Good, Sindihl. And there's others, there's lots  of them.  (In English) The law in the village, already  marked. Already stamped. About all the chief, every  bit on this country. The same words before.  MR. O'BYRNE: Perhaps we'll stop now and go off the record for  a tape change.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. O'BYRNE]  Q   Mr. Johnson, jUst before the tape change I was asking  you about the Kitwancool chiefs and you gave me the  name of one Kitwancool chief and that was Solomon Good;  is there any other Kitwancool chief that agrees with  you?  A   Yes, there is. I know.  Q   Have you spoken    A  And everybody else knows. There's people that have  talked about it. He touches other people. That is  why they talk.  Q  Have you talked to the Kitwancool chiefs about suing the  government?  A   Oh, they know. And they speak. Solomon Good spoke.  I don't know why Indian people are going to go to court,  This is where he said it not long ago . Other people said  that same thing as well.  Q   Is it not true that the Kitwancool Chiefs Claim the Same  land that you say is yours?  A  No. They acknowledge it. They acknowledge us. They  acknowledge us. Sometimes they can use my song, my son,  his name is Gordon Johnson. There is probably  one totem pole, that is just about in Kitwancool, about  the story, the white people have destroyed the logs off  the territory. And the owner does not say anything,  the owner does not even give permission for these people  to do that. We are bitter here. That's why there's  tribal council in Hazelton and Indian Office in  Hazelton.  Q   Do you expect the Indian Office    A  We are bitter. We are really bitter because we know.  Q   Do you expect the Indian Office in Hazelton to do something for you?  A  There's lots of Indian people, there's lots of people  have gone to school. There's right for the Indian Office  in Hazelton to do something.  (In English) About the life. 2-117  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  Q   After you pass the name of Lelt to the next person,  does that person have the right to speak about the  land of Lelt?  A   That's right. That's right.  (In English) That's what everybody said. On  this country. Same place too talking about it. Big  government too.  Q   Can that    A  Meet together to do good.  Q   Can that new person who becomes Lelt change any decisions  you make about the land?  A  No. There's things that present Lelt says we must do  and then there is other Simgiiget, other chiefs will  agree, there's the Ada'ox, there's the indicators,  there's nobody there to break it.  Q  You told us about a flood and that other tribes drifted  looking for land. Do you remember telling us that?  Lelt drifted along the Skeena and found some land, is  that correct?  A   Yes, that's right. Everybody else did the same thing. '  (In English) Looking for about eight, somebody gO  and all help.  Q  Lelt claimed the land that he found as his own, is that  right?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: The Lord guided us and the other people as well  to different places.  (In English) Everybody know. We told them.  Everybody know like this. Feel bitter yet.  Ladies and gentlemen, they educate their young so  they will learn as well.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q  Was the land that Lelt found empty of people?  A  Nobody. The Great Spirit guided us and other places  as well.  Q  Who owned the land before Lelt got there?  A  They found it. The Lord guided us about the life.  (In English) Many time I say this. Nobody can  overhear what I'm talking.  Q   Did anybody own that land before Lelt came there?  A    (In English) No. No.  MR. O'BYRNE: Would you please translate the question to him?  THE WITNESS:  (In English) No. No sir. I didn't hear that  word. That time.  Everybody. They stay out together and they find 2-118  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  land together. They can see where the -- from Black  Water where we came from. We have relatives in Kispiox,  big chiefs as well. T'elgamuux. He's big chief. He's  head of the chiefs. And they know.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q  Did Lelt OWn land at Black water?  A   That's where we came from. And we came through this  way. Other people came from there as well. The Lord  guided us.  (In English) That's the second time I talk like  that.  Q  Did Lelt OWn land at Black Water?  A  Some of them did. The generations do.  Q  What happened to Lelt's land at Black Water when he  moved after the flood?  A   That's where they came from.  Q  Where is Black Water?  A  Up around the road to Kispiox, right where the sun rise:  on this side.  Q   Is it true that the chiefs at Black Water had heard of  other lands and that is why Lelt came to settle in this  area?  A  The Lord guided us. They guided them to Kispiox. They  had a council of Indian people, the Good Lord always  gave us the daylight. Whatever the chiefs agree on  and people hear and they will learn.  Q   ' Were there any markings on the land that Lelt took to  indicate there were other people here?  MR. RUSH: What land are you talking about?  MR. O'BYRNE: I am referring to the land that Lelt went to  after the flood.  MR. RUSH: Not Black Water?  MR. O'BYRNE: No.  THE WITNESS: Where is that land?  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q  The land that Lelt went to after the flood?  A   This is -- they know where they came from. That is why  there is totem poles. And all the Ada'ox. That is  where all the grandchildren of the big chiefs are  following today.  Q  Why did Lelt leave Black Water?  A  That is where the Lord made it. All the other people,  the people in Kitwancool know this story. The chiefs  in Kispiox. Hagwilget people know what the story is  and that is still the same.  Q   Was Lelt searching to acquire land? 2-119  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: No, doesn't search for land. No, the good Lord  guided, that's why there's land there, that's why the  song and he is happy there's a song there. That' s when the  water retreated. It was nice, had a nice day, they used  a raft. It wasn't just Lelt that made such a raft.  There was other people as well and there was a song too,  and it is still the same today. All this British  Columbia is the same. The new people, the Ada'ox in the  land now and they're still very young. The poor people  say that.  BY MR . O'BYRNE :  Q   Mr. Johnson, you told Mr. Rush that when the white man  came to Kitwanga you told him about your land; do you  remember saying that?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: Yes, we told them. They know. They do it.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q   When did the White man COme to Kitwanga?  A  Not very long time ago. Not very long time ago.  Q   How old were you when the white man came to Kitwanga?  A  Maybe over 18.  Q   What is    A   They were looking for good land. The Indian people  warned them. They had big trapping grounds, they didn't  let the logs go. They made good clothing, good jackets.  They used furs to make good jackets. Never got cold.  It is just like big farm what the good Lord has given  us. There's lots of things on it, goat, fish.  Q  What white men did you tell about the land of Lelt?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: We Indian people talk amongst ourselves. We  always meet with our grandfathers. That is why white  people calls us Indian claim. That is what they say.  This is land of Indian people.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q   Were these White men that Were tOld about this government men?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN MR. O'BYRNE  THE WITNESS  2-120  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  THE WITNESS: Government white people. It's chief. . ..  (In English)  Ladies and gentlemen, listen when I  talk, open talk everybody, for me.  MR. O'BYRNE: I'm sorry, Mr. Translator, I didn't understand  that he replied to the question.  THE INTERPRETER:  No, he didn't.  THE WITNESS: Maybe the council will talk.  Can I have the question again?  (In English) British Columbia council.  THE REPORTER: Question:  "Were these white men that were told  about this government men?"  MR. O'BYRNE: Would you put the question to him again please?  THE WITNESS: About the story?  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q   About the lands, the Indian lands?  A   (In English) Many time I talk about this and other  witness know what I'm talking.  This chief came, he talked both languages.  (In English) Maybe from Port Simpson,  I guess.'  College man too. He was half-breed.  The Simgiiget chiefs got together and they camped  at the base of Snake Hill. This is what they did. They  got together.  This is Willy Beynon. Like you, person names,  they write it down. The story of Indian people. That's  why there's totem poles and totem stones. Jesus uses  cement in the grave, and there still uses Indians.  Totem stone....  THE INTERPRETER: I didn't catch the other part.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q   At that time when this Willy Beynon was there were the  lands of Lelt described and explained to the white man?  A   Yes, our chiefs did. Lelt told the story, Chief  Hlengwax had it. Giilawoo' . They have totem pole here.  And the white people took pictures of the totem poles  and they make business, I don't know what, and they may  run it in Ottawa, to do a show.  Q  You told us that when the railway came the people  protested against it; dO you remember when the railway  came to Kitwanga?  A  Yes, I remember. I worked on the steam-boat. And the  camps were close together. Camp 14, CN trestle camp.  There is another name. GTP. They're around here.  Nobody will -- GTP. GTP conductor hat and foreman.  Track foreman.  MR. O'BYRNE: Mr. Interpreter, perhaps I can ask you 2-121  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  THE WITNESS  MR. O'BYRNE  THE WITNESS  (In English) That's right.    ask Mr. Johnson if he is getting tired?  (In English) No, I want to talk. I am not against  them. I am sure, and fell happy.  MR. O'BYRNE:  All right.  Q  You worked on the Steam-boats, you told us, is that right?  A  Yes.  Q  How long did you work?  A  All our Indian, I swept steam-boats. There was lots of  ash on the deck of the steam-boat, that's what I cleaned.  They knew I was a good worker. I helped the deck-hand.  We used to throw logs, the wood to feed, throw the logs  around the deck. We carried heavy things, like rails the'  used on the highway.  Sometimes the people would die at Gitsalasxw Canyon.  I remember. I remember the time when the boat tipped over  at Gitsalasxw, the back end touched and I don't know how  many people died. The white people, Captain Johnson was  his name, he was with his wife. The boat was flipped over  just west of Gitsalasxw, flipped over. Just the bottom  was there.  Q  How long did you work on the steam-boats?  A  Lots of summers.  Q  How old were you?  A  I was healthy when I was small, Maybe around twenty.  Q  Was the railway here at the time you worked on the steamboats?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: They were just building it. Sometimes they gave  the Indian people a contract. They cleared and they burn  where the tracks were going to be on.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q  Did you work on a contract to clear land?  A  Sometimes.  Q  Who Were you working for?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: The Indian people here that know me. That is who  sometimes calls me. I didn't work there too long.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q  When the people protested the railway coming, were they  protesting the railway coming through the Village of  Kitwanga?  A  They didn't pay for where the train was going to be, 2-122  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  what they were going to be using.  Q  Was that inside the Village of Kitwanga or outside the  Village of Kitwanga?  A  Yes.  Q  Were there lands outside the Village of Kitwanga the  people were protesting about not getting paid?  A  That's what we are talking about yesterday, earlier,  belongs to the chief. It's the property where we worker  Our grandfathers. For our survival. That's so it will  be good for our grandchildren.  Q   The railway track goes through the land of Lelt, is that  right?  A   That's right.  Q   Does the highway, Highway 16 go through the land of  Lelt?  A   That's right.  Q   Whereabouts on the highway does Highway 16 go through  Lelt's land?  A   It goes through west around Sedan Creek. There's lots  of people that the train went through and they haven't ,  paid for it, and the same thing with the Tsimshian  people.  Q   What about the highway, from where on Lelt's land to  where on Lelt's land does Highway 16 go?  A  The same place. The same place around Woodcock. Right  around Gwinilx. Around Gwunwakx. The land of the  Indian people go and go.  Q   How far south of the Skeena River does the land of Lelt  go? (Question not translated)  A   Right around by the bridge.  MR. O'BYRNE: Mr. Translator, I noticed that he answered something further before my last question was translated,  is that correct?  THE INTERPRETER:  M'hmm.  MR. O'BYRNE: Sorry, you have to answer yes or no?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  MR. O'BYRNE: Was that in response to my previous question,  continuation of the answer?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q   What bridge are you talking about, Mr. Johnson?  A  There's a big bridge just around Gisga'ooxs. There's  a gravel pit there somewhere. It's a long bridge.  Q   Is Gisga'ooxs east or west of Kitwanga?  A  There's a highway on the Terrace side, towards Terrace,  there' s that road along there. The people have cars  and I used to have a car. I had lots of cars a long 2-123  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  time ago. Delivery car. Parcels. Big truck. I used  to haul poles.  (In English) That's right, I remember.  Q   Where did you haul poles to?  A  Sometime I hauled poles in Kitwancool. And maybe some  other places. Poles for -- I had big horse. I had  real big horse, just one, and used to pull really --  used to pull lots of poles.  Q   How   A  We used to work really cheap. Although we had cheap  wages we had to work.  Q   Whose land Were you hauling poles off?  A   Indian land. Indian land.  Q  Was it the land of Lelt?  A   The land of Hlengwax.  Q   Was he selling poles on his land?  A  No, no. They didn't. They said no.  Q   Did you have permission to be on his land to take his  poles?  A  Yes, because we're the same. After I talked to him.  Q   Were you taking the poles for your own use or were you  selling them?  A  The poles were really cheap. Maybe cents and half a  foot.  Q   Were you selling the poles?  A   If you made your own. . . .the price of poles would go up  a little bit. That's the way the white people treat us,  Q   Were you selling poles to the white man?  A  There's other people that takes out the contract, maybe  somebody by the name of Hanson, I can't really remember,  Butternut (?) is some of their names.  Q  Are these some of the people you sold poles to?  A   I don't sell poles, the contractor does. The contractor  looked after. I was just a worker.  Q   How far south of the Skeena River does the land of Lelt  go?  A   It's a long territory. Goes a long ways back. That  is what I told you guys about a while ago. T'emlaxamit  and Anxt'imi'it. Other people had their own territory.  Q   Does the territory of Lelt end at Gitsalasxw Canyon on  the west?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: Way west. No. Tsimshian people own, that's  where they get their own survival from. They have  big chiefs as well. They have their own chiefs.  That's where the steam-boat was at. Walter Wright used 2-124  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  to help the captain.  (In English) He know the river, he knows the  Canada country, he just doesn't do things on his own.  Just like one Tsimshian person in Terrace, he was  who was helping the captain, he knows the river. That's  why they try and help the steam-boat to tip over,  because these were big chiefs. Gitxoon, these were some  of the names. Gitxoon, big grizzly bear looking for  fish. They have territory in Kitimat. They registered  properly.  I accompanied him one time. I helped him and I  learned something. He told me, and I always listen,  and I always listen to him talk. That is what you guys  should do when you're small. Sit down and listen,  don't go all over the place. That's the way we are here  that's why it's good.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q   What is the most Westerly point of Lelt's land on the  Skeena River, can you tell me?  A  Years ago the land would go along the -- there would be  an Ada'ox with it, and the Tsimshian people, they know  today. There's a mountain just west of Terrace, there's  the white bear that chased -- was chased, T'uxmihlxw was  the name. That's why I gave the name to the children  of T'uxmihlxw, so they would be smarter and they would  learn. They chased this grizzly bear and they had a  cane. He had a cane and he chased, the older people were  swifter. They listened. Ordained them lucky people  As T'uxmihlxw was getting close to capturing the  white grizzly bear and he scratched him out. They  scratched the mountain and the mountain split and just  like this it opens. The mountain opened just like this.  And the bear went across and T'uxmihlxw stood, - watched.  He didn't have anywhere to CrOss, and the ground split,  just like an earthquake. Still if there's too much  trouble then you would get earthquakes.  MR. O'BYRNE: Perhaps this would be an appropriate time to take  a short break.  SHORT RECESS  MR. O'BYRNE: Okay, back on the record.  Q   Now, Mr. Johnson, have you walked down the rail line  through the land of Lelt?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN 2-125  JOHNSON, F.  Cross-Exam  Mr. 0'Byrne  THE WITNESS: I used to walk along the tracks. Used to just  make two dollars a day.  (In English) Ten hours. Buy my own groceries. Everybody do that along the Skeena at that time.  MR. O'BYRNE: Perhaps, Mr. Translator -- there was an exchange  between yourself and Mr. Johnson -- could you tell  us what that was about?  THE INTERPRETER: He couldn't really get what we meant by  "tracks", whether you go on a train or He  couldn't place the tracks at first, and I was trying  to explain the question.  MR. O'BYRNE: All right.  BY MR. O'BYRNE:  Q  Mr. Johnson, if We Walked today down the railway tracks  towards Terrace from Kitwanga, how long would we have  to walk before we came on to the land of Lelt?  A  We walked along, the track is nice. We worked on it.  We worked on it. We worked for nothing. Now there's  lots of train, we can't walk along the track. You  guys will hear the whistle, it is fast.  Dangerous on the track now. Dangerous for me  and dangerous for you guys. We don't want to walk  on the tracks now. It's made to be dangerous, and  it ' s no good.  (In English)  For myself. Looks, too much, look out.  THE INTERPRETER:  I think he's tried.  MR. O'BYRNE: You think he's tired?  THE INTERPRETER:  He's tired.  MR. O'BYRNE: I think in view of that, if there's an  indication that he's tired, I'm prepared to stop the  Commission for today.  MR. RUSH: Is he getting tired?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. O'BYRNE: Perhaps, go on the record.  We can adjourn this to Tuesday, November 4th at  2. 00 p.m. for a continuation of the Cross-Examination.  It is understood that we go that afternoon and then  the next day?  MR. RUSH:  Yes. 2-126  JOHNSON, F.  Proceedings  MR. O'BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Johnson. Then go off the record.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  - PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3. 00 p.m.  TO BE RESUMED 2. 00 p.m. TUESDAY, 4 NOVEMBER, 1986  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  AVD: jg-Nov.11/86  A. Veronica Duffy (Ms)  (formerly Harper)  Official Court Reporter  B.CS.R.A. #263  REPORTER'S NOTE:  Proceedings did not resume as scheduled  due to hospitalisation of the Witness.

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