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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-05-19] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 19, 1987

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 338  1 MAY 19, 1987  2 SMITHERS, B.C.  3  4  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Witness, I remind you you are still under oath.  6 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  7 MR. GRANT:  8 Q   Mrs. McKenzie, on the last day when you were  9 describing a number of the Feasts and you made  10 reference to records kept at the Feasts, in  11 particular, I believe you were referring to the Feast  12 for Anhloo'o, since that time have you had an  13 opportunity to speak with the present holder of  14 Anhloo'o and to obtain copies of the Feast books?  15 A   Yes, I have.  16 Q   And could you explain to the Court -- I have used the  17 term "Feast book".  Could you explain to the Court  18 what a Feast book is?  19 A  A Feast book is where a record is taken off right  20 from -- especially a burial feasting, and the expenses  21 start on the first day, so all these are put down on  22 record, and all the little possessions that go along  23 before the burial of a chief and at the Feasting all  24 what contribute by the family, the wil'nat'ahl and all  25 the clan of the whatever, speaking for the Lax Gibuu.  26 Q   My Lord, I would like to show you a bound copy of  27 photocopied pages, and I would like you to take a look  28 at that and explain to the Court if that is the Feast  29 book or Feast books, referring to the Feast of  30 Anhloo'o?  31 A   Yes, this is the book that is -- we had at that Feast  32 of Anhloo'o.  And before, a few years, about 10 years  33 back, we never thought of getting these things  34 together on paper, so now we are starting.  Some  35 families have their, what we call the Feast book, what  36 all expenses is given by the family and the clan.  And  37 you will see that it's right from the first few pages  38 there, you will see that Anhloo'o and the late Ellen  39 Johnson was still at the hospital in Terrace, and you  40 will find that there were flowers sent to her at that  41 time and these have been acknowledged by sending --  42 giving gifts to them.  And this Smoke Feast, this is  43 when the announcement of the day of the funeral and --  44 Q   Can I just interject for a moment before you go into  45 what the book is.  There is another part -- there is  46 two other parts to this book, and I would ask you to  47 refer to a part titled "Dominion B ruled".  Now, does 339  1  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  GOLDI  26  27  28  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  THE  COURT  45  46  MR.  GOLDI  47  that refer to notes of the Burial Feast or the  Headstone Feast?  Yes.  This other book has just the very few of what --  at the Headstone Feasting.  Okay.  And then right past that there is what seems to  be in the form of a smaller book, that is the pages  are smaller.  Do you recognize what that is or could  you tell the Court what it is?  This is the Feasting of the headstone erection.  Are those notes of Mr. Neil Sterritt junior?  Yes, Mr. Neil Sterritt, whoever, what chief is putting  on a Feasting, there is so much to be done in a  Feasting, especially by the clan, so they have asked  him to try and do the best to get these notes.  :   Okay.  My Lord, I can advise the Court that I have  provided copies of these this morning to counsel for  both the Province and the Federal Government, and I  received them -- was able to receive them late  yesterday, and that is why I forgot to produce them  this morning.  I would ask that this document, this  bound book, be marked as Exhibit 3, and if my friends  object, it may be marked as Exhibit 3 for  Identification.  :  All right.  Mr. Goldie?  EI:  Well, I think it better be marked Exhibit 3 for  Identification, yes.  (EXHIBIT THREE FOR IDENTIFICATION - BOUND FEAST  BOOK OF ELLEN JOHNSON BURIAL'S FEAST)  :  All right.  And how would you describe it please,  Mr. Grant?  :  This is a bound Feast book of Ellen Johnson's burial  Feast on March 4th, 1985.  :  March 4th?  :  1985.  Notes of Ellen Johnson's Headstone Feast of  November 9th, 1985 and Neil Sterritt's notes of the  November 9th, 1985 Headstone Feast.  The date again?  November 9th, 1985.  The same one?  The same one.  The last two are the same event, the  first one is of the earlier.  :  All right.  That will be Exhibit 3 for  Identification.  E:  Who does my friend say is the author of the first  two parts? 340  1 MR. GRANT:  I'll adduce that through the witness.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, can he tell us now, so I can make a note of  3 it, please, My Lord.  4 THE COURT:  Are you able to do that?  5 MR. GRANT:  It's the writer -- the person that records at the  6 Headstone Feast and at the Burial Feast, I believe.  7 THE COURT  And can you say who that was  9  Burial Feast, I'm not certain who it was.  All right.  Ask the witness.  8 MR. GRANT:  9 THE COURT:  10 MR. GRANT:  11 Q   Could you inform the Court as to who would have been  12 the recorder at the Burial Feast for Anhloo'o?  13 A   I can't say who the person was at that time because I  14 was quite busy myself.  15 Q   And at the Headstone Feast?  16 A  At the Headstone Feast we normally had Mrs. Sarah  17 Hindle.  18 THE COURT:  Sally Hindle?  19 THE WITNESS:  Yes, Mrs. Sarah Hindle.  2 0 MR. GRANT:  21 Q   I put Exhibit 3 before you, and I have an extra copy  22 for the Court's convenience.  You were starting to do  23 this earlier, when I asked you to identify the  24 documents.  Possibly you could go to the first book  25 titled Ellen Johnson Burial Feast, and just explain,  26 going through the first pages -- you started to  27 explain about the flowers in the hospital, and could  28 you just explain why that is recorded and whether or  29 not anything is done later with respect to those  30 people at the Feast.  31 A   Everything that -- Mrs. Johnson had been hospitalized  32 for sometime, and being the head chief herself, we  33 have to record right from when she was in the  34 hospital, and cards were sent or flowers were sent to  35 her, or even the goodies that were maybe left with  36 her.  We had to record these because at the Feasting  37 we have to return our thanks to these people, and by  38 doing so, we have to give them little gifts, and so  39 that's why we have to record from that time.  I am  40 trying to -- there are four pages here.  It says "Cars  41 in Smithers" and --  42 Q   That's at the top of the page?  43 A   Yes, at the top of the page here.  It's written in the  44 back.  Now, "Cars in Smithers" means that the remains  45 were taken to the funeral home in here in Smithers --  46 and the people that were there with the family -- and  47 these are the cars that the people came in.  These 341  1 have to be recorded too because the Feasting there,  2 giving gifts too for the -- travelling with the family  3 and the casket.  And the people that were present, it  4 says people at the Defrane's on the next page, and all  5 these people have to -- these are the people of the  6 clan of the Fireweed and the Frog.  7 Q   Now, why is it the clan of the Fireweed and the Frog  8 that is recorded?  9 A   Because they -- this is -- she is of the Lax Gibuu  10 clan, this Anhloo'o.  So there were travels with the  11 family.  They have to be from the Frog and the  12 Fireweed clan.  13 Q   Do you want to go back to the beginning then, to the  14 second page in, there is a reference there to Smoke  15 Feast.  Will you explain to the Court what is meant by  16 the Smoke Feast?  17 A   This is to -- the Smoke Feast is -- Frog clan and the  18 Fireweed clan are invited to.  It's a Feast in very  19 small Feasting, and this is when the burial of this  20 Anhloo'o would be announced, so again people of the  21 Lax Gibuu clan would contribute towards this Feasting.  22 And when I say very small, people have to buy  23 cigarettes.  This is used -- that's why it is called  24 Feasting -- the Smoke Feasting.  But with so many  25 people now who don't smoke or have quit smoking, so  26 we -- there is very little of the tobacco is used, is  27 distribute, but we come and use the goodies, sweet,  28 like candies, chocolate bars, and with the smoke  29 party, Smoke Feast, you will see what is being brought  30 by the different peoples; like they would have two or  31 three boxes of chocolate bars, candies and cookies  32 used at this Feasting.  33 Q   Now, on the first page of that there is reference to  34 cakes, and you turn it over and there is a list that  35 appears to be two pages long of people's names.  Would  36 those be people who received gifts at the Smoke Feast  37 or contributed at the Smoke Feast?  38 A   The first -- second page did you say or --  39 Q   I am starting with the -- well, there appears to be  40 the page titled Smoke Feast and cakes, and there are  41 Sheila Campbell and Laureen Weget and Dorothy Weget's  42 names there, and then over one more page it says  43 family expenses, Smoke Feast, March 2nd, 1985, and  44 there is a long list that appears to be two pages long  45 there.  I just ask if you could clarify for the court,  46 are those people from the Lax Gibuu who have  47 contributed or people who are receiving things? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  342  These are the people that contribute towards the Smoke  Feast and the --  Are they Lax Gibuu?  Yes, they are Lax Gibuu clan.  On the first page under cakes, Dorothy Weget is  labelled, it's $78, and on the next page, Clara Weget;  are they the same person?  Yes.  And is that the person who succeeded to the name of  Anhloo'o?  Yes, Miss Weget is.  Is the Smoke Feast held -- when is it held in relation  to the Funeral Feast?  It's held two days before the funeral, so that at the  Smoke Feast -- we have the Smoke Feast and then it's  announced when the funeral will be, and it's announced  again if tets would go the next day.  This is what is  announced in a Smoke Feast.  Is there --  And who would succeed, this is known to the people, so  that there be -- the different clans would be ready,  like Clara's wilxsibakxws would be ready to help her  out and whatever the case may be.  Is there always a Smoke Feast when a chief dies?  Yes.  Whenever anyone dies, even an infant, because  the dates have to be announced of the funeral.  Could you move over the two pages after the Smoke  Feast.  There is at the top, it says hawal, March 2nd,  1985.  Now, can you explain to the Court who these  people would be in relationship to Anhloo'o and what  that refers to?  It says hawal, March the 2nd, 1985.  Is that the page  you are referring to?  That's the page.  And Art Wilson is at the top and  Bill Blackwater under him.  Yes, this is the Feast.  These are the names of the  Lax Gibuu clan contributing towards the Feast.  And is this contributing towards the Smoke Feast?  The pages before that is for the smoke.  It says smoke  there.  Right.  And it continues on the other page and it says March  the 2nd.  That's still the Smoke Feast.  So is it a Smoke Feast?  Is hawal given by members of  the clan who are in other Houses?  Is that usual?  Of the Lax Gibuu clan?  Yes. part of  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  343  Yes.  Could you go over to the next page and the beginning  of several pages, it appears to be.  Now, could you  just tell the Court what that reflects.  Take that  first page, title "Feast, March 4th, 1985".  Yes.  The first page there, March the 4th, 1985, and  you will see that Clara Weget's name is first and how  much goods that she had given out for the Feasting,  the cash and her total.  Now, the first page there is  all Mrs. Weget's family, and even the second one,  second page, is still family.  Could you just refer to Norman Weget.  How is he  related to Clara and does he hold a high name or a  chief's name?  Norman Weget is Aunt --  Clara is Norman Weget's Aunt?  Yes.  Jim Angus.  Jim Angus is, as I said before, he is related.  He's  our wil'nat'ahl.  And what name does he hold?  Wii elaast.  Jeff Harris, is that Jeff Harris senior or junior?  Senior.  And he is Luus?  Luus .  And then there is Irene Cournoyer and Mary McKenzie.  That is referring to yourself?  Yes.  And you go over those two pages and that's all family.  Now, when you refer to family here, are you referring  to the wil'nat'ahl or Anhloo'o and Luus?  Yes, to the two pages -- you can see on the two or  three pages of wil'nat'ahl.  Maybe you can go through that and indicate to the  Court where those, other than the wil'nat'ahl, where  that starts.  On the page where it says hawal, and on top of it says  2,737.  The page that says "hawal".  So there is three pages  of the wil'nat'ahl and then we move to the hawal?  Yes.  Now, you already described -- these are the people in  the Lax Gibuu clan, but in Houses that are not  yours or Anhloo'o's, wil'nat'ahl; is that correct?  That's correct.  Now, could you just indicate to the Court, just select 1  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  344  out of those pages the names of some of their people  and their chief's name, just so the Court will have  some idea what Houses they come out of.  The first one is Art Wilson and he's a Lax Gibuu, and  he's the --he 's on with Kliiyem lax haa house.  So  Art Wilson's name is Wii'mogulsxw, so he's Kispiox,  Lax Gibuu.  Is his relationship to Kliiyem lax haa similar to Kwa  moon relationship to you?  Yes.  Who is the second one?  The next one is Bill Blackwater and he is of Niist's  House, of the table of the Lax Gibuu.  And what is his name?  Baskyelaxha.  Go ahead and maybe you can pick out a few more on that  page?  Percy Sterritt and Gertie Morrison there, they are of  Kliiyem lax haa's house.  Percy's Sterritt's name is  'Wii bowix.  And Gertie Morrison?  Nagix banda.  And the next one down is Alice Wilson.  She is also of the table of Kliiyem lax haa, same  House, and her name is Hawaaw'.  And when you start  down to Sadie Harris's name there and on down with  Arnold Johnson, he's of Gwoimt's house.  Arnold Johnson is?  Yes, and Sadie Harris.  These are like the Lax Gibuu  from Gisaga'as.  Do you have Arnold Johnson's name or Sadie's?  Yes.  He's with Sadie Harris.  And there is Neil Sterritt senior?  Yes, that starts up another House of the Lax Gibuu.  Neil Sterritt Senior is Wii gaak.  Next one down is  Martha Danes.  She's in the house of Wii gaak.  If you can just go down the list and over to the next  page and find the head chief of another House that you  wish to refer to.  Just go down.  Or members of  another house that you haven't mentioned.  On the next page there is Edith McDougall, and she's  of Wii gaak's house, and her name is 'Wii lixs haas.  And I note up on the page higher up there is a Martha  Brown on the same page as Edith McDougall, seventh one  down.  Who is that?  Oh, yes, Martha Brown, yes, she's the head chief of  the Lax Gibuu at Kispiox.  And what's her name? 345  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16 MR.  GRANT  17 THE  COURT  18 MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Kliiyem lax haa.  And just under Edith McDougall, a couple under there  is David Blackwater.  Whose House is he from?  He's of Niist.  So he's the head of the House of Niist?  Yes, he's at the head of the House of Niist.  Maybe you just want to proceed down that page, and if  there are any persons from any other House which you  wish to refer to, you could just point them out to the  Court, just to record an indication of the House's  represented at this Feast.  Further down to the fourth one from the bottom it says  Wilfred Wilson.  This is on the next page?  Yes, on the next page.  The page with 1973 on the top, My Lord.  Yes.  Yes.  He's the chief of Spookw's House.  He's the chief in Spookw's House?  Yes.  And Spookw is the head chief of the Lax Gibuu in  Gitanmaax.  And Wilson's name is Wii woo'm.  You can  see too that Margaret Austin, Dora Kenni, Debbie  Kenni, Leonard Austin, they are are from Spookw's  House, Gitanmaax.  Those are the names just above Wilfred Wilson's?  Yes.  The sixth one down on the top of the page on the same  page is Kathleen Wale.  She's a Gwoimt, is her chief  name, and she's the House of Gwoimt.  They are from  Gisaga'as.  That's the house that you referred Sadie Harris and  Arnold Johnson from?  Yes.  Now, do you wish to proceed over to the next page,  which is labelled "total expenses"?  Yes.  And can you explain what these reflect; that is, that  there is a listing again of people's names and goods  of cash?  Yes.  When -- in some village like -- especially at  Kispiox, they have organizations that contribute  towards to a Burial Feast.  That's why you see the  Kispiox Band Council and Jim Elliot, he's the Minister  of the United Church.  And all the -- down at the  bottom there are all -- there is one there that's 1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  346  Thomas Wright.  He's a Chief of Gitanmaax and his name  is Guuhadak.  So, is this -- the rest of the list going down, where  it starts again with the three columns on this page,  is this again part of the hawal?  Yes.  And like I mentioned a few of the head chiefs of  a House, and the rest are all the nephews and the  nieces of the head chief and the brothers and sisters.  So I mentioned different Houses here and all the  family and their wil'nat'ahl they all contribute, and  that's why you see a lot of other names of the younger  people.  And going over to the next page.  Is this a  continuation of the hawal?  Yes, still.  Can you refer to any of the people there?  At the top there it says Wilfred Wale, he's still of  Gwoimt's House.  David Gunnanoot and Jerry Gunnanoot  is all Nii Kyap.  David Gunnanoot is Nii Kyap and his  nephew, Jerry Gunnanoot.  You see marked again is  Steve Robinson, Spookw, head chief of Lax Gibuu from  Gitanmaax, and then Maggie Smart is his sister.  Now, these two names, they are like James Morrison  and Maurice Williams, they are from Kitwancool, the  Lax Gibuu of the Kitwancool.  And James Morrison is  the —  Sorry.  What was that again?  James Morrison name is Tax Wok.  Maurice Williams --  they are related in the same House.  Right now I can't  recall Maurice Williams chief name.  And far down on that page is Albert Joseph.  He's  of the Wet'suwet'en, and his name is Gisday wa.  So the Wet'suwet'en contributed at the Feast as well  as the Gitksan?  Yes.  And is that usual at Funeral Feasts of the Gitksan?  Yes.  Going over to the next page.  Yes.  Do you recognize any of the people on that page?  And  again is this hawal?  No, this is what we call andim hanak.  These are the  spouses of the family and they contribute towards it.  And Alvin Weget, is that Clara Weget's --  Yes, that's Clara's husband.  And Solomon Jack, who is he and how is he related?  That's andim hanak because his wife is in Luus's 347  1 House, and Solomon Jack's name is Gwinin nitxw.  2 Q   And what clan is he with?  3 A   He's the Wolf clan.  4 The rest down, after Solomon Jack, there would be  5 the Giskaast and the Lax See'l and spouses.  6 Q   And going over to the next page we have something  7 titled "haircut", which you described on Friday, and  8 can you explain who these people are and their  9 relationship?  10 A  Well, Anhloo'o is of Luus's House, so all of Luus's  11 children would give the haircut.  This is Gloria  12 Blackwater, the first one; Vera Wale, Jeff Harris  13 Junior, Daisy Olson, and these are -- this page is all  14 of the children of Luus.  15 Q   What House and clan are those children of Luus in?  16 A   The Frog clan.  You see, two, four, six, eight names  17 down we have AI Tait, he's given $30 as his haircut  18 because his father's name, the late Tait, Thomas Tait,  19 is AI Tait's father, and he was Luus at that time, so  20 this is why Albert Tait's name is on the haircut list  21 there.  22 Q   This is the Albert Tait who held the name Delgamuukw  23 until just a few months ago?  24 A   Yes.  And down below is Thelma Blackstock.  Walter  25 Harris's father, the late Chris Harris, he was the one  26 that held Luus, so this is why they had to contribute  27 to a haircut.  28 Q   And Thelma Blackstock is Walter Harris's sister?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   So the reference there to Walter would be to Walter  31 Harris?  32 A   Yes.  And you see they have it here, like John Heit,  33 Barb Sennott, Margaret and Chuck and Doreen and Jeanie  34 Harris, these are all Geel, Walter Harris's brothers  35 and sisters, and they are the children of the late  36 Luus, Chris Harris.  37 Q   Okay.  Moving over to the next page, there seems to be  38 notes of things that are brought or a list of goods  39 for the Feast.  That's dated November 9th.  Does this  40 refer to the Headstone Feast or to the Burial Feast?  41 A   This is marked November the 9th, so this goes for the  42 Headstone Feasting, but this shows the preparation of  43 goods that they give as gifts at the headstone,  44 whoever would have to work of putting the headstone,  45 like doing the cement work and things, so all these  46 people's names have to be listed; and then the family,  47 like Clara, Mrs. Weget and her children, have to put 348  1 together goods that would be given as gifts to these  2 people that they do work towards the headstone.  3 Q   Just for the record, My Lord -- and I will check this,  4 and my friends are able to examine the original as  5 well -- within these books were some loose pages and  6 it may be that this page was a loose page.  It should  7 have been inserted into the next book.  I will verify  8 that.  Going over to the next page, there is a  9 reference again to haircuts.  Can you advise -- is  10 this referring to the Headstone Feast or to the  11 Funeral Feast or can you tell from the document?  It's  12 the one with Melody Wilson at the top of the page.  13 A   The date is not on there but this looks likes it's the  14 haircut for the Headstone Feasting.  15 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant, I notice it is 12:30, is it convenient to  16 carry on 'til say 1:00 o'clock?  17 MR. GRANT:  If the witness is fine, it's fine with me.  18 THE COURT:  All right.  Next thing I am going to ask, is it  19 necessary to go through this book the way we are  20 doing?  21 MR. GRANT:  I only wish to go through it to indicate what the  22 reference is.  My friends wish to indicate that they  23 have a high level of interest of cross-examining on  24 it, and I don't intend to do this on obviously every  25 Feast, but I think just as a reference as to what the  26 Feast refers to.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  I don't think we have a high level of interest on  28 cross-examining on it, My Lord.  We asked for it  29 because it was referred to by the witness and not a  30 document that's been disclosed.  31 THE COURT:  I really don't know what to say, Mr. Grant.  I have  32 to leave it to you to adduce the evidence that you  33 think you should.  It seems to me that we are  34 descending into pretty minute detail.  35 MR. GRANT:  Well, with respect to this, My Lord, this document  36 demonstrates with some more -- with substance, the  37 names of the people who have contributed.  She  38 described the generality of it and what happens, and I  39 just wish to exemplify it through this document.  40 THE COURT:  Well, wouldn't a glossary just solve all those  41 problems?  If it was necessary to prove who these  42 people are by a different name, a glossary would make  43 that self-evident.  44 MR. GRANT:  A glossary of the names, yes.  There are  45 difficulties with that, My Lord, because many times  46 there are two or three people with English names that  47 are the same. 349  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GRANT  6  Q  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  :  I see that --  :  But I will just refer her to a few other matters in  this first book and I won't proceed to the rest.  :  All right.  Thank you.  If you could skip over a few pages to -- there is  reference to the people in the hospital, and if you  could just explain what that would -- why that would  be recorded.  This is about --  :  Yes, I have it.  Four pages over.  Do you have that Mrs. MacKenzie?  Why would that be recorded?  With Violet Brown -- there is another Violet Sampare  there, Anhloo'o is our grandmother, so they have to be  with her until her last hours, and Violet Olson and  Bertha Starr, these are the two persons that the  family has selected to buy the casket for the late  Anhloo'o. They have to be there as well with the  family people.  And those buying the casket are of the wilxsi'witxw or  the father's side?  Yes.  You said that Violet Brown and Violet Sampare, the  former Anhloo'o was their grandmother.  Do you mean  that as a non-Gitksan would mean grandmother, that is  their mother's mother or their father's mother?  Yes.  Violet Brown and Violet Sampare -- let me put it  this way, is our wil'nat'ahl, and see Violet Brown,  Violet Sampare are all the Gyolugyet's House.  Now, just going over to the next page there.  I  believe you have already described this.  This would  be the people of the clans other than the Wolf clan  who were present in Smithers?  Yes.  And they are paid at the Burial Feast?  Well, they give a little extra gift, yes.  You see, in  Gitksan way, when any -- even just an infant right up  to the eldest, when -- especially now we go to the  funeral home in town here.  The Gitksan people think  of the family, that they need support, so this is why  they -- whoever can make it to Smithers -- taking the  casket out from the funeral home to the home in  Kispiox; and these people, they travel with the casket  from the home, funeral home, to the village of  Kispiox.  We have to put that -- all those people's  names down, and so we don't -- at the Feasting we 350  1 don't forget these people, with little gifts and  2 little thank you messages given to them for the  3 supporting the family.  4 Q   You indicated earlier that this writing down of the  5 Feast books is relatively recent.  Before the Feast  6 books, the written records were kept, did the  7 people -- were these people still remembered and paid  8 at the Feast?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   I would like you to go over two pages.  You referred  11 also to the Pearson's and the Defraine's, and that's  12 at the funeral home, is it?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And then the handling of the casket.  And are those  15 people a special relationship to Mrs. Johnson?  16 A   Yes, whoever all our pall bearers are and coming from  17 the friend's home to Kispiox, we have to ask her,  18 wilxsi'bakxws, to be the pall bearers, and we have to  19 ask the people of the Frog clan as well because all --  20 the two clans, like the Frog and the Fireweed, we have  21 to ask the head chiefs to handle the casket and be  22 pall bearers.  These people have to be approached.  23 They don't just take anybody, they have to be  24 approached personally of handling of the casket and  25 the pall bearers as well.  26 Q   And those people referred to on that page under  27 handling the casket, they are either head chiefs or  28 other chiefs within houses?  29 A   Yes.  And sometimes it's the nephews of the head  30 chief, when the head chief himself can't -- for some  31 reason he can't go, so the next one -- he sends his  32 nephew out for that.  33 Q   And the next page you have the grave digging?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And is that a person related to Anhloo'o?  36 A   Yes.  What I said before, a few days ago, all the  37 wilxsi bakxws of a person, are the people that are  38 approached if a persons dies, and this is the work,  39 and their support is asked of these people.  So all  40 Anhloo'o's wilxsi bakxws have to be approached to  41 do -- like I said, the buying of the casket, the  42 clothes and digging on graves.  These are done by the  43 wilxsi laks.  Sometimes get two or three or even four  44 young men to dig the grave, and these names are put  45 down, and at the Feasting they are paid for their  46 digging, giving them cash and goods at that time in  47 the Feasting. 351  1 Q   I would like you to go two pages over.  I think that  2 is part of what you have been explaining just now.  3 A  May I say at this time too that some chiefs that have  4 died, a high chief, and this I have seen just a year  5 ago, just about a year ago, that the family approaches  6 all the head chiefs of different villages, like the  7 Kitwancool, Kitwangar, Kitsigukla, Gitanmaax, Kispiox  8 and Glenvowell.  Now, two or even three -- there has  9 to be six because that's how many pall bearers you  10 need for a casket, so it has to be six chief of every  11 village, and instead of using the hearse -- the hearse  12 is there, but it has to be carried by these chiefs of  13 different villages; and this has been done a few times  14 of different families.  15 You will see that they have the -- they go so far  16 with it.  They set the casket, and then the next  17 village, six head chiefs, take over until they -- and  18 the last part, the seventh village, then they put it  19 on the hearse and the hearse gets the casket to the  20 grave site.  21 Q    Before we go on, could you tell me why would these  22 chiefs from all the villages be called to carry the  23 casket?  24 A   The person that -- the head chief has died, you see.  25 The last time I have seen this, when Ha Luus died,  26 Kitwangar, and this is what happened and what took  27 place at that time because he's the head chief of a  28 House; so the family, especially the mother and the  29 father, would like to have the chief handle this  30 casket and handle a body of their son and for the last  31 time.  It's a fairwell from the family.  Each village  32 is saying their fairwell to the deceased.  33 Q   Going onto the next page, there is a reference there  34 to blanket.  Could you just explain what that would be  35 referring to.  36 A  With a blanket, like I mentioned -- this is Vincent,  37 this is Mrs. Weget's son -- would loan him the money.  38 This is the blanket because it's -- Vincent's father's  39 relatives are lending him the money.  This is what  40 Elsie Morrison did.  That's why he gave this $20 to  41 Vincent as a loan.  42 Q   And this is what you referred to last week, I believe,  43 as being repaid sometime in the future?  44 A   Yes, at the bottom of the page again is his brother,  45 Elsie done the same thing to him.  46 Q   Now, can you -- going over two pages over there is  47 Clara Weget, "Personal IOU", March 4th, 1985.  Can you 352  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  just explain what that's referring to?  A   This -- it says "Personal IOU" on all these people  that loaned her the amount of money that's written  down here are from Albert Weget, her husband's family  House, and so it's all the Giskaast would lend her the  money and this all has to be repaid, returned.  Just a  loan.  Okay.  I see at the top there is Stanley Williams.  Yes.  Now, is he from Alvin Weget's House or --  Yes.  Are you referring here to his House or to a clan?  Well, Alvin, when --  Just which group are you referring to?  Alvin is one person that -- he's a chief of Kispiox  and he's also a chief at Gyetm galdoo.  So related to Stanley?  Yes, related to Stanley.  Going over -- now, before I go any further, were those  persons repaid at the Burial Feast or later?  When you have a -- people, this many, you see, with  Mrs. Weget, her -- Alvin is of the Giskaast and Mrs.  Weget's father is a Giskaast too, so this is why there  is so -- most of them that have loaned her the money  are of the Giskaast clan, and this is -- whenever  there is a Feasting or whenever there is a Feasting of  different clans, if she has the money, she repays some  of these few at that time, and it has to be shown in  the Feast House that the witnesses know that she has  paid these loans.  Q   Now, I would just like you to go through and advise  the Court if there is a total of how much money was  raised at the Burial Feast, that is reflected in the  documents.  COURT:  Well, about 7 pages on there is a grand total.  GRANT:  Yes, I was going to refer you to that.  I don't  think that's what we are referring to.  Q   There is a grand total referred to of $2,455 there on  this page that has a column added up.  Was that the  amount that was raised or was it -- is that just a  partial total of -- and I refer back to Clara Weget.  It appears that her donation was $2,500.  Is that what  that is referring to?  A   Yes.  All the goods and the food and the cash that she  spent at the Feasting.  Q   Without referring to it, if you can -- do you recall  at this point how much was raised at that Feast, at 353  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  A  COURT  GRANT  Q  It wasn't recorded  the Funeral Feast?  It doesn't show just how much was,  how much.  :  Could you direct your attention to the document at  page 13.  THE  THE  MR.  I refer you to the top of the page where there is  total expenses referred to as 25 thousand.  Now, does  that reflect the expenses that were paid out at the  end of that Feast?  A No, that's the total amount of the Feast, that's the  burial and that's all the Lax Gibuu clan contribute,  the food, the goods and the cash.  Q   Okay.  So that was the total amount raised at that  Feast?  A   That was the total amount raised, yes.  COURT:  The amount raised or the amount spent?  WITNESS:  No, not spent, that's how much is raised.  It's  all the food and the cash.  GRANT:  Q   Mrs. McKenzie, can you explain to the Court why this  Feast process, these payments, these contributions,  what we have gone through, why it is important to the  Gitksan today?  A  Would you rephrase that again please.  Q Okay. Can you explain why the Feasting is important  to the Gitksan?  A   To get people together to witness what takes place  when a person dies, so we have to put on a Feasting  and, of course, we -- there is a lot of people that we  ask to do work for the family, especially at the  Burial Feast; and even at a Totem Pole Feasting, there  are people that are invited and asked to do certain  work.  Like the burial, we have to get people to dig  the grave; at a totem pole raising, still have to have  people dig a hole to put the totem pole in, so all  these little things that are -- that we ask the people  for, we have to pay them for this.  And this is why we  have the Feasting.  So important that all people will  understand how much is done in a Feasting, how much  work there is, and who the people are involved in it.  And the people, the other chief, would have to witness  that all the family has paid up, whatever necessary  that needs to be paid.  This is the importance of a  Feasting, that we share between the three clans.  At a Feasting things are put out, like names are  given, songs are sung, and they have to be songs of 354  1 the person, what House that person belongs to.  And  2 the most important part of a Feasting is that given of  3 a name to a chief and what the authority that chief  4 has and what he holds, like of a family of the House,  5 like the fishing sites, the trap lines of the  6 territory, these are things how to be put in place and  7 reminded of the people everytime there is a chief.  8 These are what we call the adaawk, like I said a few  9 days ago.  These are the things that make a Feast, is  10 to give out the adaak.  And every Feasting that there  11 has to be an adaawk given -- why the purpose of  12 this -- this Feasting, and what it stands for of the  13 family.  This is the importance of our Feasting, that  14 our adaawks are told over of a House.  15 You see that every chief has their own House, is so  16 there is people living there, and when one dies in  17 one, the adaawk of that House is told in a Feasting  18 House; how they got these names, their songs and their  19 fishing places, where they hole, the trap lines that  20 they hold and the territory of their hunting places,  21 their berry picking places, these are all put out in a  22 Feasting that every knows and understands where these  23 people have their territory and how their names.  This  24 is the importance of a Feasting, that these things are  25 kept going at every Feasting of different Houses.  26 Some Houses may have very few people in it.  There  27 are other Houses too that they are just overflowing  28 with their family, so they have to keep on repeating  29 their adaawk in a Feasting House.  And this is the  30 strength of the adaawks, is by putting on a Feasting  31 and what takes place, when names are turned over to.  32 Especially the young people.  As I said, we changed  33 our names four times before we come and we get a name  34 of when we become men and women and names are given to  35 us.  So all these changes, we have to have a Feasting  36 so that they be recorded in oral, and these names keep  37 repeating in one House.  You can't take a name out of  38 one House and use it in your House, that's against a  39 Gitksan law.  And the same law with our adaawk,  40 everything, you can't just -- you may like somebody  41 elses requests, no way you can use that because you  42 are of a different House.  43 These are the most important things, and these --  44 this is why the adaawk goes, is repeated, telling in a  45 Feasting of these adaawks, so that no one, especially  46 the younger people -- they have to learn.  And this is  47 the Feasting House, where we try to teach them and to 355  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  show them, not just to tell them, but to show them how  it is done in a Feasting House.  Would this be a convenient time to adjourn?  Yes, this would be convenient.  All right.  Come back at two o'clock?  Yes, that's fine.  I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  SKILL AND ABILITY.  LORI OXLEY  OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE 356  1  PRO  2  3  THE  REGIS  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  THE  COURT  39  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47  THE  COURT  PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO NOON ADJOURNMENT)  ?RAR:  Order in court.  Witness, I remind you you're  still under oath.  :  Mr. Grant?  :  Yes.  My Lord, I was going to refer to Exhibit 3 for  identification, apparently the reporter has it. I  just wish to make a few brief references to it.  There's an unmarked copy here.  :  I have my copy.  :  The exhibit apparently is in the hands of the  reporter --  :  Yes.  -- so maybe we could -- I could just refer to this  copy with the leave of the court, my own copy is  marked up.  I just wish to refer you briefly to the Headstone  Feast under where it starts "The Dominion B ruled".  It is the title page in Exhibit 3.  If you can just  take this copy here.  I wish to refer you over, the  second page over, that is the one that says "dish  $8,137" and something else "$676".  What do those two  figures reflect as what occurred at the Headstone  Feast?  And then two pages over there is a one page  entry "cash in pot 8,813".  Would you explain what  that refers to to the court?  On the first page that you mentioned this here?  No, I'm sorry, I'm one page over.  This one here?  Yes, that's one of the pages.  Well, it says "Cash in pot is 8,813".  That's the  amount of the money that was contributed by the  family, the wil'nat'ahl and the Lax Gibuu clan, that's  the cash total that was in the pan or the pot at the  Headstone Feasting.  Okay.  Now, I refer you over to --  Mr. Grant, are you telling us that this part of  Exhibit 3 which starts the Dominion book, that is for  the Headstone Feast of --  Anhloo'o.  -- Anhloo'o?  Yes.  All right.  And we'll arrange for tabs for the exhibit of your  copy of it.  That's all right. 357  1  MR.  GRANT  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  35  36  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Now, the third page in from that title page, there's  two figures there, one is the figure you've just  referred to of the 8,813 is there, but there's also a  breakdown of it in the dish and something which says  "Un dim hanak'"?  Un dim hanak'.  Un dim hanak'.  Can you explain to the court what  those two figures reflect?  How that breakdown is  ordered?  When it says the dish there, that's the amount of  money that was put together in the pan, and that's  8,137 and the bottom says "un dim hanak'", that's the  amount of all the spouses.  :   Just a moment.  My Lord, that's the second page in  from the title page.  :  Oh, yes.  Go ahead, Mrs. McKenzie.  So that that's the total that was in the dish all  together put in those two amounts, it's 8,813.  And the un dim hanak' is put in by who?  By the spouses out there and the family.  Now, if you turn one page over, it appears that you've  got that total figure at the top and then different  expenses deducted from it.  Can you explain what  those -- just take for example Walter Harris, the  call-in, Sally Hindle, the secretary, and explain what  those two person's role was and why they were being  paid?  What page is that?  :   It's the page right after where I was.  I'm sorry.  It's this page here that has deductions on it.  It  starts at the top "Dora Weget expenses".  On my  page -- on my copy it's the third page in and it  starts with the figure "8,813" at the top.  :  Yes, I have it.  Yes.  Okay.  Now, could you explain why payments were  being made to Sally Hindle or what her function was,  and to Walter Harris?  To Sally Hindle, she was the one that made the record  of the -- of all what's happened at the Feast.  And "Walter Harris call-in" it says there, that's when  Miss Weget, Anhloo'o before she put her money in the  pan, she was waiting outside in the foyer of the hall  and Walter Harris being her wilxsi 'witxw has to call 1  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  47  A  358  her name in.  At the bottom there's Ellen Woods and Alvin Weget  labelled as seaters.  Can you explain why -- you  indicated last week that you were one of the seaters  at this Feast.  Could you explain why they were paid?  Well, Alvin Weget and Ellen Woods were the two people  that seated our guests.  Was there a reason why you were not paid as well?  Because I was in the family and I was -- had to take  care of the things at the back there at the door with  Clara.  And Ellen Woods is from the Lax See'l, the Frog clan?  Yes, she's another person too when either Alvin or I  are not there she does the seating.  And Alvin is in the Fireweed?  The Fireweed, yeah.  Now, after these deductions there's a figure at the  bottom of "$6,708".  What was done with that money at  the Headstone Feast?  That was the amount of the -- they paid out with.  You  see all these names here, these are the people that  were approached to do the -- these works here, the  recording and grave-digging.  So you see that the  amount of the money's in the pan and then each one is  paid, they deduct that, and at the end that was the  amount that was taken out of the -- what was left in  the pan after all these expenses were paid out.  If you go over two pages, that is, the page after the  cash in the pot reference, there's a reference to  Clara Weget and a blanket with interest, and you've  already -- these payments would have been made by  Clara Weget at the Headstone Feast?  No.  She had to keep all the names of these people  that loaned her the money, and see like Stanley  Williams he loaned her a hundred dollars, so she had  to put an interest on that hundred dollars of ten  dollars, that's why the total is a hundred and ten,  and it goes on so much of all the rest and this is how  much she has -- she spent on the next page, it still  continues there.  Yes?  So it's $1,129 that she had to repay of the people  that loaned her the money at the Headstone Feasting.  Okay.  That's -- at the top it's labelled as paid out,  is that the monies that were paid out by her at the  Headstone Feast?  Yes. 359  1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  19  THE  COURT  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Was that one -- just to put this in the perspective of  what you described last week, would that $1,129 come  out of the pot or would she pay that separately  herself?  She paid that separately herself.  It doesn't -- the  money that was what she paid on the loan, on loan, is  out from her own self.  I'd like you to turn the page over and there's  notes reflecting a naxnok.  Oh, before you leave that, could I just ask, just  looking at Moses Morrison, how do you get from $50  plus $5 interest, up to $220?  My Lord, I can maybe explain that, clarify that.  When you look at it it's a running total.  Oh, I see.  You see, the first one is a hundred plus ten, it's a  hundred and ten, then there's fifty-five more for a  hundred and sixty-five.  Yes.  Yes.  Thank you.  All right.  Sorry, where are  you going next?  I was going over to the next page --  Yes?  -- where there's notes of a naxnok.  Now, what are  these payments or these figures beside these people's  names reflective of?  Well, when she went around with her naxnok for the  Feasting, like I said before, that the head chiefs  whom the naxnok touched, she has to -- they have to  give the down or the feather to acknowledge her naxnok  thing, but then we don't use any down now so we give  cash.  So this is who she went to touch on her naxnok  and there's more than this I'm sure, but the people  that acted their naxnok towards her didn't give any  money, but this is the cash that was given to her at  that time.  Now, this has to be returned right at that  Feast and then like the $5 she may give $7 back, so  this is why we have to have a listing of the names of  the people that give her the money.  Okay.  Let's take Albert Tait, for example, she went  to him with her naxnok?  Yes.  And she performed it and he responded?  Yes.  And then he paid her $5?  Yes, he gave her the $5.  And she has to repay that at that Feast? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  360  Yes. Yes. As I mentioned before with this naxnok and  the tets, like the invitation, her and I went out, and  feathers or the down is given to her in cash.  Now, there's a time at the Feasting where we return  the feathers, a song is sung then before these money  are returned to the head chiefs and one of her --  either her son or one of the family would put on their  regalia and the singing starts and then the down is  blown by this person that answers and that's the  showing of the returning of these money as the feather  or down.  Okay.  I'd like you to go over to the next page, and  this is the commencement of the notebooks of Mr.  Sterritt.  Now, going to page three of that notebook,  this would be with respect to the Headstone Feast; is  that right?  Yes.  When I say page three, it would actually be the second  page, but page -- it's labelled at the top right-hand  corner as page three.  Now, first just to clarify, the  first notation there is "Anhlo'o 1,555"; is that the  payment of Clara Weget?  Yes.  That's her cash, the amount of cash she put in.  And the balance of it reflects other persons just as  in the Burial Feast?  Yes.  And on page four, the third one down, "Luus $200",  that would be Jeff Harris Senior's contribution?  Yes.  And underneath that there's a "Luus (M'town)"; is that  a Wet'suwet'en chief?  Yes, that's a Wet'suwet'en Luus.  Now, going to page 11, that is the numbered page 11 at  the top, at the bottom of that there's a reference "Vi  Smith", are you on the page?  Yes.  And it's "8137" and "676". Now, this is — this is the  payment -- this is the money that was put in the pot  that you described from the earlier notes?  Yes.  Now, I'd like you to refer over to page 13, the last  page actually of this exhibit.  There's a reference  there to a total of "$27,711.50".  Now, that's  obviously different than the $8,000, and it appears to  include the same $676 for un dim hanak', then "Family  Expense" of "$24,625".  Why is that total so much  higher? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  361  That family expense is 2400 you said?  24,000 it appears to be.  24,000, yes.  Well, that's all the family expense, all  our families, and that all includes the food and the  goods and the cash.  Okay.  And that's the whole total of it, of that Feasting.  Okay.  So as well as the $8,000 there was roughly  $16,000 in goods?  Yes, and the food.  Okay.  And was this announced at the end of the Feast?  Yes.  Now, My Lord, I'm going to another area of evidence  now and this -- I've referred to it earlier in a more  general category which is the authority of the chiefs.  I'd like -- I'm going to be asking Gyolugyet about the  authority of the chief with respect to her territory  and also with respect to other obligations of the  chief.  You told us last week that you have the authority  to represent your House in this court action.  Do you  have the authority to authorize others to use  Gyolugyet's territory under Gitksan law?  In our -- especially Gyolugyet, I'm the person that  under Kwa moon, Madeek and Hlo'oxs.  Now, they're  all -- as I say we all combine these three, four  Houses together now, so being the xsgoogim simoogit of  the Gyolugyet's House, I give the authority.  I have  the authority of giving permissions.  Now, have you authorized anyone related to you who's  not in your House to use your territory?  Yes, I have to give authority to my own husband to go  out and trap on our territory.  And why?  Why do you say you have to give him that  authority?  Why did you do that?  Because it's the Gitksan law that we have to have  permissions.  We -- they -- no one goes on anybody's  territory without getting the permission from a head  chief of the House of that territory, even if it's  your own husband or your wife or your children, you  don't just any time you want to go, you just go ahead  and do it.  That's not the law in Gitksan.  Everybody  has to be given -- ask permission to be given that  permission.  Well, why -- was there a specific reason why you  decided that your husband should be able to go on your  territory? 1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  362  With him and I being both chiefs of a House, we have  to have Feasting in my House, so in order for me to  get money I have to ask him to go and trap in our  territory.  Was there anyone else in your House that could have  trapped on the territory at that time?  Yes.  My brother George Holland was around at that  time, and I believe it was the second time that my  husband went to trap there he went with my brother.  Is there a Gitksan word for the authority of the chief  to make the decisions regarding the territory?  Is  there a Gitksan word or phrase that describes that?  Daxgyet (Gii'namhl), that's giving the authority.  Now, could you describe some of the -- you've  described some of your authority over the territory,  some of your obligations with respect to your  territory as chief -- as Gyolugyet?  Would you rephrase that again?  Okay.  Well, I'm -- and you can refer to yourself and  others, but I'm asking you what -- if you can explain  what obligations does a chief have with respect to the  territory?  Well, first a chief has to tell the adaawk every time  there's a Feasting or there's a gathering of that  house itself.  And the -- if I know that there are fur  animals to be trapped off that territory, I have to  give permission to people like my husband or my  children when they're old enough to trap there, and in  order for that too is to go to the -- to our territory  and see if there's no -- how do I say the word --  intruders on that territory, and if there are they  have to report back to me.  Are there obligations on you as a chief regarding the  conduct of the members of your House?  Very much so.  Could you explain further what those obligations are?  With the importance of a Feasting I have to repeatedly  tell my family, my wil'nat'ahl how to act in a  Feasting because in a Feasting House it is the very  most important thing to head chief and the family of  the House so they conduct -- they have -- they have to  show to the other chiefs of how I conduct them by  telling them how to behave, how to treat the head  chiefs and all the different occasions like little  ceremonies that come on with different Feasting.  I  have to let them know and they understand all these  things so that the other chief don't have 363  1 embarrassment in a Feasting House.  See even the --  2 even the serving the meal out I have to explain to  3 them what they should do and how they should take care  4 of our guests and where the food starts when you serve  5 a meal.  All these things is so important in a Feast  6 House that you don't -- nothing happens to your guests  7 to embarrass them like upsetting their cup of coffee,  8 upsetting a bowl of soup or not getting a loaf of  9 bread when it comes around, these little things are  10 very important to a head chief because if you're left  11 out with a loaf of bread that's quite embarrassing.  12 You have to make sure that each head chief have the  13 food that's served around.  So this we have to look  14 after because it is very important to a head chief and  15 it's important to the people that host the chief just  16 so that we don't have anybody embarrassed by it, you  17 know, the ignorance of it.  18 Q   What if -- what about conduct of people in your House  19 outside of the Feast Hall, and for example, referring  20 to who you as a young person were allowed to associate  21 with when you were growing up?  22 A  We were taught to respect people.  Even if someone  23 goes up to you and tell you off -- I use that word --  24 but you don't have to answer that person, just ignore  25 it, and to respect all elders and even the children.  26 You have to respect everyone.  That's the importance  27 of our training that we have.  And just like I said  28 before when you have your ears pierced that you don't  29 hear bad words or a sentence given to you, you don't  30 have to answer that to start an argument.  Now, these  31 are the things that show in a young person that they  32 respect all Gitksan people.  Even the animals you have  33 to respect them.  34 Q   Can you explain further what you mean when you say you  35 have to respect the animals?  36 A  Well, to respect it is to take care of the kill, you  37 don't overdo it.  That's the respect there because if  38 you kill off all the animals there's nothing left for  39 you on your territory, so even the fish we have to  40 have respect.  We don't get fish and just leave it  41 unattended or not to use for food.  These are the  42 things that we have to take care of and the same way  43 with the animals, like the fur-bearing animals too, we  44 have to make sure that we look after that.  45 Q   When young people want advice in the Gitksan system,  46 who do they go to?  Which of their relations do they  47 go to? 364  1 A   They have to go to the elders because they very  2 knowledgeable of most things so if there was a  3 question they should want to ask or how things -- how  4 a Feasting -- the meaning of one thing in a Feasting,  5 if they're not too sure of it, they have to go to the  6 elders or to the person that knows a little more about  7 it to explain to them.  This is the way we teach our  8 young, but not only to, like I said before, not only  9 to tell them, you have to take them and show them how  10 important it is because if you tell a person anything  11 by not looking at it or not attending there, it  12 doesn't sink in yourself, but you have to be there to  13 know and to have the feeling of the people that are  14 doing this.  In Gitksan law we always say we have the  15 feeling, everyone has an old feeling about it so that  16 when you attend these things you -- you caught on with  17 the feeling too that it encourage you more when you  18 attended it and be there.  19 Q   Have you been involved in the training of your own  20 children and grandchildren?  21 A  Well, I have before their grandmother died and I had  22 two children when my grandmother died and it was from  23 even at the age of four and six they still remember  24 what my grandmother had said and had taught them to  25 respect both human and the animals and relate to them  26 our adaawk at the very small age.  You think a child  27 doesn't listen, but they do. There's some little thing  28 that attracts them of the telling of these adaawks  29 they still remember it because all my children are  30 grown now and when they get together now "This is what  31 my granny said about this.  This is what my  32 grandmother said."  So I have to continue with the  33 knowledge I have today.  I have to -- I have to pass  34 it onto them and my grandchildren and my  35 great-grandchildren.  I have to.  That's my obligation  36 in doing -- in training them.  37 Q   Is part of your obligation as a chief a requirement to  38 attend the Feast put on by the other clans?  39 A   Yes.  We have -- we all have that.  Every head chief  40 has to attend these Feastings in respect of the family  41 that's -- that's putting on this Feasting and we have  42 to respect that, so we have to -- have to make time  43 for to go and witness what is -- is done and what is  44 said because a chief can't go to another chief "Well,  45 what did they say?" It's not the Gitksan law that a  46 chief would have to go around and ask.  He has to be  47 there every time there's a Feasting. 365  1 Q   If a chief fails in this obligation to attend a Feast  2 is there a way to resolve that?  In other words, is  3 there a way for the chief to rectify it if he doesn't  4 attend Feasts for some period of time?  5 A   There are times when a family would have differences  6 in their own house, in their own family wil'nat'ahl,  7 and this chief, any chief, doesn't agree with what is  8 is done or what is said by the different House chiefs  9 and he doesn't want to make a thing about it so he  10 just stays home.  Whenever there's a Feasting he would  11 not attend, and the family just sits back and -- and  12 they try their best to get their chief attending, but  13 sometimes this chief is -- doesn't want to attend  14 these things, so that's when a few times of that the  15 people say -- in Gitksan way we say that moss is  16 beginning to come cover the seat of a chief.  The dust  17 is settling in a chief's seat.  So the family has to  18 do something about that.  They have to talk to the  19 chief to make sure that they attend and they're  20 embarrassed of their chief not attending, and the moss  21 is getting thicker and the dust is getting thicker  22 they're saying in the seat, so pretty soon the other  23 chiefs would have to go and talk to this chief and  24 when the things are settled when the chief goes he  25 says "I'm attending this Feasting."  So before he does  26 when there is a feasting announced and this chief says  27 "Well, I'm going to this.", a few days or maybe a day  28 before he goes to this Feasting, his family and  29 himself have to put on a Feasting for him to re-enter  30 into a Feast House and take away the dust and the moss  31 of his seat.  So this is another Feasting that a chief  32 will do.  33 Q   You've described in detail the number of Feasts last  34 week and this morning.  Do you have an obligation,  35 that is yourself, if there's a person within your own  36 House or a chief -- I'm sorry, a person in your  37 wil'nat'ahl who dies, and I ask you if you could  38 explain that with specific reference to Ama Gyet.  Do  39 you as a chief have an obligation to ensure that the  40 Feasts are held?  41 A   Yes.  1983, and I have -- Mrs. Amelia Wilson died and  42 she's from Wii elaast's House, and it was during the  43 summer months so Wii elaast wasn't around so I have  44 the authority so I put on a Feasting for her burial  45 and this is how our wil'nat'ahls get together and work  46 when there's one chief there and without me asking him  47 because he's my wil'nat'ahl.  I don't have to ask 366  1 because I'm the head chief too of a House so we had  2 the Burial Feast for this lady.  3 Q   I'd like to move into another area now, My Lord, about  4 the settlement of disputes in Gitksan law.  5 You've described how sometimes a chief may stop  6 going to Feasts because of a dispute within a House.  7 As a head chief yourself, is there any occasion where  8 chiefs of other houses would invite you in to help  9 resolve differences within their House?  10 A   Yes, I have once that I was asked.  11 Q   Okay.  Could you describe what happened and what the  12 difficulty was and what you did, your involvement?  13 A   One of the head chiefs of Giskaast, Miluulak died, and  14 she is Miriam Russell, and of course they had to have  15 a person to take her name.  And at that time we had  16 Robert Jackson Senior while there was the two of them  17 out.  They both felt that they would be the person to  18 take the name of Miluulak so at the funeral day it  19 wasn't settled yet amongst the Miluulak's House.  20 There was still a family pulling for one and the other  21 half for another one, so they couldn't settle it  22 amongst themselves.  The House of Miluulak couldn't  23 have it settled because half was pulling for the other  24 person and half for the other, so this is when the  25 chiefs of the different clans like the Frog and the  26 Fireweed, we were called to a House, Betty Starr's  27 home -- I mean Freddy Starr's House to have a family  28 meeting and the head chiefs.  My husband and I were  29 there and Eli Turner was there I remember and just the  30 three of us would make -- or even if there was a half  31 a dozen of us --  32 Q   Before you go on, could you describe what clan is  33 Miluulak?  34 A   Frog clan.  And so the Giskaast chief had to be called  35 in to settle it and the Lax Gibuu.  36 Q   And you were the Lax Gibuu?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And Eli Turner was the Giskaast?  39 A   Yes.  So after both of these people like Alice Jeffery  4 0 was one that would -- wanted to have the name of  41 Miluulak, and some of the family chose Robert Jackson  42 Senior to take the name.  So this is what was -- we  43 were told all what was -- what they were debating on  44 and so they asked the chiefs to see how they can  45 settle this.  So after a lengthy discussion we settled  46 that Alice Jeffery would get the name, the Miluulak.  47 She'd sit in the Miluulak's seat at the Feasting, but 367  1 Robert Jackson will have the authority of looking  2 after the territory.  So that's how it was settled  3 because he was able to go do hunting and trapping on  4 the territory, so without -- instead of just leaving  5 one out altogether it's all in the house so they -- we  6 had to settle that they both have authority.  7 Q   What was -- was anything said at the Feast about what  8 happened?  9 A   Yes.  All this was -- had to be told in a Feasting of  10 how the family disagreed and how it couldn't be  11 settled so they called on the chiefs of the different  12 clans to settle it for them and they -- that they had  13 agreed, the family of Miluulak's, and the wil'nat'ahl  14 had to agree with that.  This was all settled at the  15 Feasting House.  16 Q   If you had some internal difference or dispute within  17 your own House, who would you first go to to resolve  18 it?  19 A   I'd have to go to the Lax Gibuu, different houses.  20 Like I'd have to go to Kliiyem lax haa because he's  21 the head chief of Kispiox, and I have to go when Wii  22 elaast is there with the Kliiyem lax haa, I have to go  23 to the chief of Gitaanmax that Spookw because they the  24 head chiefs of the villages and I have to explain to  25 them the disagreement of my house and see what they  26 can come up with to settle this for me and if we don't  27 have the settlement, we have to rely on the head  28 chiefs of the Lax See'l and the Giskaast and they're  29 the ones that would have it settled for us and we have  30 to agree with whatever it is.  31 Now, in a Feasting House too if it's brought into  32 a Feasting House and the other chiefs, one may  33 disagree and that chief has to say what he disagrees  34 on with the other chiefs, so this is settled again in  35 a Feasting House if there's a dispute between two  36 chiefs, one agrees, the other doesn't.  So this is how  37 it involves all the chiefs that they have to say how  38 they want it and why they want it that way.  These are  39 the things that come out into a Feasting sometimes  40 when the dispute in the family.  41 Q   With respect to the Miluulak situation, was a  42 headstone -- was there subsequently a Headstone Feast  43 for Miluulak sometime after this resolution?  44 A   Yes, there was one just a year ago.  45 Q   And that was sometime after the -- where the decision  46 had been made?  47 A   Yes.  And at that Feasting everything was settled at 368  1 the Burial Feasting so there was no dispute, it just  2 went on smoothly with the family.  3 Q   Which of the two people, Mr. Jackson or Alice Jeffery,  4 I think you said she held the name and he had the  5 territory, what did each of them do at the Headstone  6 Feast or did just one of them take charge?  7 A  Well, like in a headstone Miluulak is the person's  8 chief there, but whoever is in Miluulak's House has to  9 come forth and contribute as much as they could  10 towards the headstone and putting the Feasting on, so  11 no one actually just say "Well, I'm not doing very  12 much."  Everybody has to put out as much as they could  13 towards the erecting of that headstone.  14 Q   And was there any -- did you -- you said earlier that  15 both Alice Jeffery and Robert Jackson are the same.  16 Was that -- did they take on the same responsibility  17 for the headstone?  18 A   Yes.  You see after that Feasting too Robert Jackson  19 has moved up on the seat when one of their chiefs died  20 last winter.  And now that Robert Jackson Senior sits  21 on the left side of Miluulak now facing the door of  22 the hall because he's taken the name of Xsimgit  23 Gigeenik.  24 Q   Okay.  I'd like to move to another area now and I'd  25 like to ask you leading into the questions of laws of  26 the Gitksan relating to adoption, My Lord.  27 I'd like you to explain through an explanation of  28 the adoption laws of the Gitksan, show how the legal  29 system of the Gitksan works.  And possibly the best  30 way of approaching this is by taking some examples.  31 Now, do you recall of an adoption in Elaast's House,  32 Wii elaast's House, in an earlier -- with respect to  33 the old Wii elaast?  Do you recall that adoption and  34 if you do could you explain to the court what  35 happened?  36 A   Yes.  The late William Elaast, Wii elaast, and he had  37 no sister at all, no brother, he was just by himself,  38 then he has to see ahead of him that when he dies  39 there's no one in his House to be his successor.  So  4 0 the thing that came to his mind was he had to adopt  41 out of a House of the Lax Gibuu.  Now, he came and  42 spoke to Gyolugyet's House and Joseph Danes was the  43 Gyolugyet at that time and they went -- he went, old  44 Elaast went and spoke to Gyolugyet that he wanted to  45 adopt a lady from their Galdo'o people, Gyolugyet, and  46 her son, and that's Alice Williams and Steve Morrison  47 was the mother and son there. 369  1 So discussions were amongst the Elaast's House and  2 Gyolugyet's House, so they called onto the other Lax  3 Gibuus and they had a meeting and this was put towards  4 the other Kliiyem lax haa and Niist on the Lax Gibuu  5 that this adoption they wanted it to come through.  So  6 the Lax Gibuu all agreed that they seen the old  7 Elaast -- old Elaast's view of when he dies he'll have  8 no one to take over his chief name.  So they agreed  9 right away and they say there will be adoption, so he  10 mentioned these two people and Alice Williams she --  11 she had children, she had two, three daughters, but --  12 and he had one son, Steve Morrison, so the family  13 agreed that they would take these two and only two  14 from the Galdo'o people like from Luus's House,  15 Elaast, Steve Morrison and Alice Williams were all out  16 of Luus House, so we agreed that they go to Elaast,  17 and that means they have to sit with Kliiyem lax haa's  18 table because Kliiyem lax haa is the head chief of the  19 Lax Gibuu.  20 Q   Of Kispiox?  21 A   Of Kispiox.  So after all the arrangements were made  22 Feasting was given by Wii elaast, the chief Elaast,  23 and he announced that he was adopting Mrs. Williams  24 and Steve Morrison into his House.  This is why that  25 if he dies Steve Morrison will move up and have the  26 name of Wii elaast and then her -- his mother, Steve  27 Morrison's mother was with her.  28 Now, it was only these two that were adopted,  29 although Alice Williams had three daughters,  30 grand-daughters, but those stayed, they weren't taken  31 into Elaast's House, so this is how it stood for many  32 years until the late William Elaast died, then Steve  33 Morrison got in as Elaast.  34 Q   And was Alice Williams given a name in Wii elaast's  35 House?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Can you recall that now?  38 A  Axlax 'Nisxw.  39 Q   Now, what happened after Steve Morrison -- Steve  40 Morrison became Wii elaast?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And then he held that name until he died?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And then what happened with respect to Wii elaast's  45 House?  46 A  When Steve Morrison died we had -- we had to give --  47 we had to give permission to take James Angus Junior 370  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  to take Elaast's place and at that time again is from  Luus's House again.  So we agreed when we got together  that Jimmy Young -- Jim Angus would take the chief  name of Wii elaast.  Did anyone else move over from Luus's House to Wii  elaast's House when Jim Angus moved over to become Wii  elaast?  Alice Williams died and she had this name of Axlax  'Nisxw, so when Mrs. Williams died we again took Irene  Cournoyer from our table and moved it down to where  Wii elaast is at the table.  And then Chris Harris was  still alive, Luus was still alive, the late Chris  Harris was still alive, so his brother Jeff Harris --  Senior?  -- Senior sat with them.  With Wii elaast?  Wii elaast and Axlax 'Nisxw and so they gave him the  name of Guu Laxgan, that's Jeff Harris at that time.  Now, he -- go ahead.  Now, when Mrs. Williams died we let them have Irene  Cournoyer, so she sits beside Elaast and Jeff Harris  Senior sat with him, the three of them.  Now, when the late Chris Harris died we took Jeff  Harris Senior off from that table and we put him in  Luus's seat at our table because they're brothers.  Now, Jeff had to have Norman Weget to take Guu Laxgan  at that time.  These are how these names change and  the changing of the seats from one table to another in  a Feasting and this has to be explained in a Feasting  of how these changes are made.  Were all of these changes that you've just described  explained in a Feast?  Yes.  To the other Gitksan chiefs?  Yes.  Yes, because all these people -- all these chief  have to know what taking place and who's on whose  table and the seats and how they're seated because in  the next -- in another Feasting where we'll be guests  they'll have to put these people in their right places  that's ready for them.  Now --  Should we take an adjournment, Mr. Grant?  Yes.  Would counsel confer over the adjournment and decide  how long they want to sit this afternoon and I have to  say that I won't be able to sit on Friday?  I've got  to leave here Thursday night, so we're going to miss 371  1 another day this week unfortunately.  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court's adjourned for 15  3 minutes.  4  5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  6  7 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  8 a true and accurate transcript of the  9 proceedings transcribed to the best  10 of my skill and ability.  11  12    13 Tanita S. French  14 Official Reporter  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 372  1  MR.  GRANT:  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT:  6  MR.  GRANT:  7  THE  COURT:  8  9  MR.  GRANT:  10  11  MR.  GOLDIE  12  13  14  15  MR.  MACAUL  16  THE  COURT:  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  MR.  GRANT:  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  Before we proceed, I just would suggest that maybe  we could stop at the regular time today and possibly  if we want to add any time, start earlier in the  morning.  Yes, all right, if that's convenient to counsel.  I would appreciate it, if we could do that.  Should we decide now to start at 9:30 tomorrow  morning?  I haven't raised that with my learned friends,  but —  :  My Lord, I was going to ask to be excused because I  am in the Court of Appeal on Thursday and Friday.  And  speaking for my colleague, Mr. Plant, I am sure he is  quite happy to start at 9:30.  AY: I will be here at 9:30, My Lord.  Yes, thank you.  I think I should say that in a trial of this kind I  wouldn't expect all counsel necessarily to be here for  all of the time, and whether they are here or not is  really a matter between counsel and his client.  I  don't need to be involved in those details of decision  to detail that go on from time to time.  We'll miss  you, Mr. Goldie, but we'll do the best we can.  Mr. Grant.  One point that was raised this morning with respect to  Exhibit 3.  Do you know who was the recorder of the  bookkeeper at the burial feast?  Yes, I just asked Mrs. Weget at the break here.  It  was Audrey Morrison that did the writing down on the  burial feasting.  Now, before going back to the adoption, I did ask you  about your authority in other areas, and one of them  was with respect to the territory.  Does Kwa Moon,  Madeek or Hlo'oxs have any involvement in decisions  you make regarding use of the territory?  Would you rephrase that.  Did you consult with Madeek with respect to others  using your territory?  Yes, I do now.  They are much older now and they  understand, so I have to make contact with them before  I make any decision.  And with Kwa moon and Hlo'oxs as well?  Yes.  Now, one other again.  You were talking about the  decision regarding Miluulak's territory and the  Miluulak's name actually.  Why was the decision as to 1  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  373  who would take the name and who was responsible for  the territory, why was it dealt with so seriously in  the case of Miluulak?  What's the significance of that  decision?  Miluulak has their House and Robert Jackson senior is  in Miluulak's House, but while the late Miluulak, Mrs.  Russell, she would send -- she gave permission to  Robert Jackson to do their trapping and the hunting on  the territory, so this was how the chiefs looked at  it, you know.  They discussed it, that the late  Miluulak had given permission to Robert Jackson, and  so when they -- the others felt in the House that  Robert should have the Miluulak because he has been on  the territory doing his hunting and trapping on their  territory.  I would like to go back now to the adoptions.  Now,  before going to the next adoption, is there a word in  Gitksan for the type of adoption that you have  described where Steve Morrison and his mother were  adopted so that the House would continue to survive?  Is there a name for that type of an adoption that you  could recall at this time?  There is a name and it just couldn't come to me right  away.  That's fine.  Why was it important for Luus's house to  help Wii elaast's house by letting people adopt over  to it?  Because we are all wil'nat'ahl and we -- like I said,  we have to see these houses build up, so this is why  we are woven so closely together, Luus and Gyolugyet,  Wii elaast and Ama gyet.  Now, I would like to refer you to another example.  Was there an adoption regarding Fred Starr's wife,  Nellie Starr?  Yes.  Can you describe where she was from and what occurred  with that adoption?  Fred Starr is from Hlo'oxs House and Gisaga'as.  He  married Nellie Brown from Bella Bella.  She was from  the coast.  Now, they moved and they lived in New  Hazelton, then they moved to Kispiox, so at that time  at Fred Starr's marriage to this Nellie Brown, Fred  Starr's stepfather, the late Joe Starr, was still  living then, and he was Wiigyet at that time.  This is Wiigyet from Kispiox?  Yes, Joe Starr.  The name presently held by Lloyd Morrison? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  Q  374  Yes.  Go ahead.  Now, when there is a feasting, Fred Starr has to  attend these feastings and he has a name 'Woos lo'op,  as Fred Starr.  Now, in Gitskan law a wife has to have  a name because her husband a chief, so this is when  Joe Starr wanted to adopt Mrs. Starr into Wiigyet's  House, so this happened.  The family of Fred Starr  agreed and the family of the different chiefs agreed  because he's to live with us -- she has to have a name  and she has to be adopted before she gets a name.  This is why Joe Starr adopted her and gave her a name.  Now, was she -- did she have children at the time of  the adoption?  I don't know.  Not yet she hadn't.  She had a few  children after that.  Are her children considered members of Wiigyet's  House?  They are considered after the adoption, and when two  of the Starr children have names from Wiigyet's  House --  Now, I would like to ask you about the adoption of --  23 THE COURT:  Could I ask when was Nellie Starr adopted?  24 THE WITNESS:   About 20, 25 years ago.  25 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Sorry, Mr. Grant.  And does Nellie Starr sit at Wiigyet's table at the  Feast?  Yes, and her children, and they attend a Feasting.  And Fred Starr would have been in the Frog clan?  Yes, in the Miluulak House.  I would like to refer to Lottie Muldoe.  Was she  adopted?  Yes, she was adopted into Lax See'l clan.  From which clan?  From Lax Gibuu.  Can you explain why she was adopted from one clan into  another and the circumstances surrounding it?  There was six or seven of them in the family, that's  Fred Harris's family, their sons and daughters, and  their mother died when -- especially when Lottie was  very young.  So her uncle, Tommy Tait, took her in  because she's a Lax Gibuu, and Tommy Tait at that time  was Luus, who was the Chief, so whenever Tommy --  Thomas Tait sat in a Feasting, he would take Lottie  with her and sit with Lax Gibuu because she's a Lax  Gibuu.  2 6 MR.  GRANT  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  0  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  375  What House was her mother in?  Luus's House.  Oh, I see.  So Tommy Tait was related to her mother  and was in the same House?  Yes.  Because Tommy Tait and Lottie Muldoe's mother  was -- were brother and sister.  Right, okay.  So it went that way for a few years, then Mrs. Tait,  Lizzy Tait, that's Thomas Tait's wife, decided that he  wanted to adopt because they brought Lottie up after  her mother died.  Tommy Tait -- Thomas Tait -- Able  Tait I meant to say, not Tommy, and Lizzy.  Able Tait was her uncle?  Luus, yes.  And he was Luus?  Yes.  17 THE COURT:  Able, A-b-l-e?  18 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  19 THE COURT:  And Lizzy was Abie's wife?  20 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  21 THE COURT:  Thank you.  22 MR. GRANT:  23 Q   Okay.  If you could just explain what happened then.  24 So Lottie was being raised by Lizzy and Able Tait and  25 they were both her father, Able -- her uncle, Able,  26 was in Luus's House?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And Lizzy, what House was she in?  2 9       A   Delgamuukw's House.  30 Q   And these were the parents of Albert Tait they we are  31 talking about?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Go ahead.  34 A   Now, I don't know how old was Lottie then at that time  35 when they -- Mrs. Tait wanted to adopt her into Frog  36 Clan.  So the two families got together and, of  37 course, they say they took them a little while before  38 they had to think this through.  The Lax Gibuu didn't  39 want Lottie and the Lax See'l kept asking that they  40 wanted to adopt her.  So anyway, it turned out that it  41 was settled that Lottie be adopted by Mrs. Tait and  42 into the Lax See'l clan.  43 Q   When you say the two families discussed this, would  44 you be more specific as to who would be discussing it?  45 A   Luus's, the House, and Delgamuukw's House.  46 Q   And these would be the chiefs of these two houses?  47 A   Yes, the chiefs of these two. 376  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31 THE  COURT  32 MR.  GRANT  33 THE  COURT  34 MR.  GRANT  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  Okay.  Now, you said the Lax Gibuu didn't want her?  They didn't want to lose Lottie, you see, but Lax  See'l, they wanted to adopt her.  So after things was  settled there, they had to put on a Feasting because  Mrs. Tait only had two sons, like Albert Tait, the  late Delgamuukw, and Willy Tait, but they didn't have  a sister, so this was one reason why Mrs. Tait wanted  to adopt Lottie, so a feasting was put on for the  adoption after the two families settled it.  Was there any other girls other than -- you say that  Lizzy had no daughters, were there other girls that  could have had more children in Delgamuukw's House  through aunts or in other relations to Lizzy?  Let me put it another way.  If Lottie had not been  adopted, would there have been anyone left in  Delgamuukw's House after the death of Willy Tait and  Albert Tait?  No, there wouldn't have been.  Lottie, was she married when she was adopted or was  this before?  No, it was before she married.  Okay.  And she --  And through this adoption is why all her children are  of the Lax See'l clan today.  And this includes the present Delgamuukw?  Yes, the present Delgamuukw.  Why would Luus's House, in a situation like this,  where it was a whole different clan, why would Luus's  House agree to give over one of their daughters to  that clan?  Is that right?  It was the Lax Gibuu that were --  Yes, I'm sorry.  Yes, I am referring to the House.  Thank you.  Luus, from Lax Gibuu clan, agreed to give this Lottie  to the Lax See'l?  Yes.  Why did Luus -- what would make Luus agree to give one  of the young woman from his House into another House  in another clan?  Well, Luus wanted to see that Delgamuukw's House have  a female, because there was only Albert Tait and his  brother and Luus, being the uncle of Lottie, so that  this was how the woman was made because they both,  Able and Lizzy, brought Lottie up, it was their --  they took her as their child, their daughter, so to  make it legal, they -- Mrs. Tait had to adopt Lottie 377  1 into the Lax See'l.  2 Q   At the time of her adoption had she already been given  3 a name in Luus's House?  4 A   That I'm not clear on.  5 Q   Okay.  I would like to refer you to just a final  6 example.  You know -- do you know the wife of the  7 present Wii elaast?  Her name is Doreen Angus?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And is she a Wet'suwet'en from Madeek's House of the  10 Wet'suwet'en?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Was she -- has she been adopted by the Gitksan?  13 A   Yes, because like the other adoption that was like the  14 Starr, Mrs. Starr, she -- Doreen is from the  15 Wet'suwet'en, and Wii elaast now is Gitksan, so of  16 course they live out in Kispiox, so she has to be  17 adopted and given a name and to have a seat in the  18 Feasting House; and at the same time she's a wife of  19 the chief, she has to have a name and a seat given to  20 her in a Feasting House, so she's adopted by Wii  21 minosik's House, Kispiox.  22 Q   And what clan is that?  23 A   Frog clan.  It was her father-in-law that really  24 adopted her, 'Wiis t'is, that's in Wii minosik's  25 House.  26 Q    What is the importance to the Gitksan of adoption and  27 rules of adoption?  28 A   The adoptions is when, as I said before, that a House  29 of a Chief, and is only one Chief, and maybe there  30 is -- they have brothers but no sisters, so they --  31 the House wouldn't be there anymore when the Chief  32 dies, so they have to adopt a lady or girl from  33 another House, sometimes very close to the chief's  34 House.  You see, there is the wil'nat'ahl, I think.  35 So the adoption was taken from there, so the chiefs  36 and the people, Gitksan people, have to look into  37 these matters, that no House just falls apart with no  38 chiefs there left there anymore, they -- we want that  39 House to be alive all the time the Gitksan people are  40 alive.  41 So this is how we take these adoptions very  42 seriously.  And it has to be done in a way that both  43 Houses would agree and they both see why the adoption  44 had to take place, is bringing up the House of a  45 chief.  46 Q   Is it always the case that the adoption must be agreed  47 to by the chiefs of the House adopting the person and 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  378  the chiefs of the House where the person comes from?  It has to be, yes.  Is there any rules as to children -- if a woman is  adopted, as to which House the children she has after  the adoption belong to?  If a woman has children in its own House -- like if a  woman from Gyolugyet's House is adopted into another  clan, the children that she has in Gyolugyet's House  still remain Gyolugyet's property, but the children  that she has after she's adopted, then it goes to that  clan.  And this is a rule that applies in these adoptions we  have talked of?  Yes.  Are adoptions always acknowledged in the Feast Hall  after the terms of the adoption are agreed to?  Yes, that goes in the adaawk again of those two  Houses, how the adoption went about, how the adaawk  was when that lady still in another chief's House and  how it was adopted into another.  These goes on the  adaawk of how these children of the adopted mother, so  that has to go towards the people in the Feasting  House, and you understand the adaawk that goes with  the adaawk of the Chief.  If there is no announcement of an agreement between  chiefs for a person to move into another House, if it  is not announced in the Feast Hall, is it a valid  adoption or is that a central part of it?  It has to go through the Feasting.  This adoption, it  has to go through the Feasting, after the two families  have agreed, it has to.  On the other hand, can a chief announce an adoption  without previous meetings and discussions with the  other chiefs outside of the Feast Hall, or is that  process of discussion outside of the Feast Hall a  central part of the adoption?   To have an adoption,  do you have to have the meetings outside the Feast  Hall?  That's what I am asking.  Yes, it is decided outside the Feast Hall of the  House.  Referring back to the adoption of Lottie Muldoe and  you have talked about wil'nat'ahl as an important part  of a relationship in an adoption.  What was the  relationship at that time between Able Tait who held  Luus and Delgamuukw?  What was the relationship with them?  Yes. Q  Okay.  Gibuu?  A  No.  Q  Okay.  379  1 A   Luus was married to a lady of Delgamuukw's House.  2 Q   Okay.  3 A  And Luus's wife's name was Wo'o.  4 Q   Was Luus the wilxsi'witxw for Delgamuukw's House?  5 I think you have referred to the plural, wilxsi laks?  6 A   Luus was -- which did you say?  7 Q   For Delgamuukw's House.  8 A   I'm not too sure of Luus's, Albert Able Tait's  9 father's clan.  10 Q   I would like to move into another area of the laws  11 relating to marriage.  Now, are there rules or laws  12 amongst the Gitksan about marriage, as to who you can  13 marry and who you cannot marry?  14 A   In Gitksan law we strictly can't marry into our own  15 clan.  16 Q   Okay.  In other words, Lax Gibuu cannot marry Lax  17  18  19 Q   Okay.  Is there a preference of marriage among the  20 Gitksan, that is recommendation maybe, who you should  21 marry?  22 A   That's how it has been quite a number of years ago,  23 that a young woman or a young man, he can't marry --  24 he may have been wanting to marry somebody but that  25 isn't so in the Gitksan.  The House of that woman has  26 to chose for her husband, and that's very much so in  27 the Gitksan, that your House have to decide.  They  28 watch the other Houses, the young men.  Like myself,  29 my family has to watch the men of the other Houses, if  30 they were capable of looking after a family, their  31 family, when they are in need of it, and if that  32 person be a good provider, like doing their trapping  33 and hunting.  These are the things that the people of  34 a House would look into.  And again they have to --  35 man of a chief's House, they have to look for a good  36 wife who would respect the family.  These are the  37 things that the two Houses will look into.  38 So when they want this lady to marry this man from  39 another House, vice versa, so they go and talk.  They  40 get together, the two families get together, and they  41 say why we want this young man of your House to marry  42 our lady of our House and that was said to both  43 Houses.  Now, if -- I'm making an instance of myself  44 and my husband.  Like my family would chose my husband  45 from Luutkudziiwus's House and maybe Luutkudziiwus'  4 6 decided that he wanted my husband to marry me in  47 Gyolugyet's House, so the two families get together at 380  1 first, so they agree.  2 Now, after their agreement of these two people to  3 get married, the man's side, the family, the House of  4 this man has to take up goods, like clothing and  5 little bit of money with it, then they take it to this  6 lady's House, a chief, and they leave it there.  Now,  7 if all people of my House agree, they will accept  8 those gifts and leave it there and are used, but if  9 not, all these goods are given back to the givers, as  10 I say, there is no marriage there.  These are the  11 things that you have to look into of the giving of  12 these gifts.  13 Q   With respect to persons not marrying into their own  14 clan, do you recall any incidents recently where you  15 have been involved as a chief in guiding some people  16 who were going together and were from the same clan?  17 A  Well, today -- this is the problem -- we have at times  18 in our young people, because the young people today  19 sort of negligent going to Feastings and listen to  20 these adaawks and what the laws of the Gitksan hold.  21 And today again I see my way, that when these young  22 people go away after going through high school, then  23 they want more education, they go away and take up  24 schooling somewhere, and in that time these two people  25 meet, they fall in love, they get married, never  26 thinking that they are both in the same clan because  27 they don't know; and there is quite a few today that  28 have this problem.  This is why I say that the  29 Feasting House is where you get your experience.  You  30 have to listen to what our laws are, are given out in  31 the Feasting, but when these people are away from the  32 villages and not knowing what their clan is a lot of  33 times and what clan your spouse will be, these are the  34 disadvantages of the young people today; but when this  35 happens, we, as the older people, have to let these  36 young people know that they are doing something  37 against the Gitskan law.  We have to repeat it to  38 them.  39 A lot of them see it our way after awhile, a lot of  40 them don't agree with that.  It's still very few  41 people that are married into their own clan today.  42 Q   Well, I would like to focus on two parts of what you  43 have said.  One is, do you recall an incident with  44 respect to the son of Fred Wale and a girl who moved  45 back from Vancouver?  Can you tell the Court what  46 happened regarding that incident?  47 A  Well, in the first place the mother's of these two 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  381  young people were sisters, this young man and this  young woman, and their grandmother's --  Their mother's or their grandmother's were sisters?  Their grandmother's were sisters is what I meant to  say.  Were they in the same clan?  Same clan and same House.  Now, the family talked to  both of them and they wanted more people to talk to  these two people, so again I was involved in that one.  A head chief was called to a meeting that we had to  talk to these young people about it because they had  intentions of getting married and they were very close  in the House, same House; and being grandmother's,  being sisters, so it's quite an embarrassing thing for  the chiefs to have the young people.  So I was  involved -- I was asked to this meeting.  So we talked  to these young people and we explained to them how it  was and how it will be after awhile if they got  married, and luckily they seen it our way.  So that  was --  When did that happen?  Three years ago.  Have you seen situations in which another form or  adoption has been used to resolve marriages within the  same clan?  Yes.  Can you describe that, an example of it?  Do you want me to say names?  I am getting leery about  this .  Just describe the incident.  Well, when this happens, like the Lax Gibuu -- I'm  still talking about myself -- my clan, if there is two  Lax Gibuu that are married in, you know, within the  clan, and it doesn't look right to us and we more  embarrassed than anything, so we have to talk about  these people, so one side, maybe the mother or the  father, have to adopt one side, so as to give them --  that one would be maybe a Frog and a Wolf or a  Fireweed and a Wolf, so that things are straight to  the eyes of the chiefs of the Houses.  When you say the mother of one or the father of one  has to adopt them, you mean the person from another  clan who is related to one of the married couple?  Yes, have to have them adopted.  And have you seen that occur recently?  Yes, I have seen once.  My Lord, I am moving into another area, maybe the 382  1 appropriate time.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  We'll adjourn then until 9:30 tomorrow  3 morning.  4  5  6 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  7 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  8 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  9 SKILL AND ABILITY.  10  11  12 LORI OXLEY  13 OFFICIAL REPORTER  14 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26

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