Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Jessie Sterritt Vol. 1] British Columbia. Supreme Court Dec 10, 1985

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 JESSIE STERRITT - EXHIBIT 70  VOLUME I - Exhibit 70A  1. Black and white photograph of longhouses       16  2. Photocopy of photograph from the National      70 C  Museum of Canada, negative number 70371  3. Photocopy of photograph of diagram depicting    70 D  the raising of Gyedimgaldo'o's pole  4. Photograph of totem pole presently beside the   70 E  library  5. Photocopy of photograph from the National      70 F  Museum of Canada, negative number 49918 2  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  VIOLET SMITH,  Gitksan Interpreter,  Sworn  JESSIE STERRITT  Witness called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs, Sworn, testifies,  as follows:   UPON COMMENCING AT 10.20 a.m. 10 DECEMBER,  1985  MR. RUSH: We'll begin with this Commission then of Jessie  Sterritt.  I'm Stuart Rush and I'm acting on behalf of  the Plaintiffs.  MR. PLANT:  I'm Geoffrey Plant and I'm here on behalf of the  Defendant, Her Majesty The Queen.  MR. RUSH: So I think we can begin.  I'll ask you the questions Vi, and you translate to  Jessie as we did before and I think it will work out  quite well.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Can you give us your full name?  THE INTERPRETER:  Are you asking for the English name?  MR. RUSH: I'll ask first for the Gitksan name.  THE WITNESS:  Wiigoob'l.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   What is your English name?  A   Jessie Sterritt.  Q   Your Gitksan name is Wiigoob'l, what does that mean in  English?  A   My name has two meanings.  It means the heart of a  salmon or the stye that you get on your eye.  Q   How old are you?  A    (In English) Eighty-four going on eighty-five.  Q   You are a member of a House, can you tell us what House  you're a member of?  A   The House of Gyedimgaldo'o.  Q   Are there other -- perhaps I should ask you: who is the  Chief of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o????  A   Head of the House is Gyedimgaldo'o.  Q   Gyedimgaldo'o is the Chief or the head of the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o? 3  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A    Yes.  Q    Are there any other houses that you are a member of?  A    We are all under one House even though there are many  Chiefs in the House, we are under one House.  Q    Who are the other Chiefs that are in the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    A'yawasxw,  'Wiigoob'l, Biiniks, Xskiigimlaxha.  Q    These four Chiefs are in the House of Gyedimgaldo'o, is  that right?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, do these four Chiefs also have separate Houses?  A    'Wiigoob'l is the only that had separate House.  Q    Now, who are the Chiefs of 'Wiigoob'l' s House?  A    They all go under the House of Gyedimgaldo'o.  THE INTERPRETER: All the Chiefs that she named are members.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Now, what crests are used with the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Frog and raven.  Q    The crest of Gyedimgaldo'o is Lax Seel?  THE INTERPRETER:  The crest?  MR. RUSH: Perhaps I should ask.  Q    What is the Clan of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Lax Seel.  Q    And the word for Clan is P'tekt?  A    P'tekt.  Q    That's my pronounciation. Can you tell us your mother's  name?  A    Hahliiyee.  Q    What is your mother's English name?  A    Esther Joseph.  Q    Did your mother have a sister?  A    Yes.  Q    And her name was Noxs To'o?  A    Yes.  Q    What does Noxs To'o mean?  A    Mother of Gyedimgaldo'o.  Q    Yes. Now, did your mother have another sister?  A    Yes, Noxs Ganii.  Q    Did Noxs Ganii have an English name?  THE INTERPRETER:  She does not remember.  THE WITNESS:   (In English)  I do not remember.  THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Was your mother and her sister in the House of 4  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A   Yes.  Q   You have given us your mother's Gitksan name and her  English name, would you tell us what your mother's name  means in English?  A   Walking along beside a hill or a mountain.  Q   Now, who would be entitled to use the name that your  mother used?  A   It may be used by any members of the House but present  it is used by Valerie.  THE INTERPRETER:  Her granddaughter.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   What is Valerie's last name?  A   Jack(?).  Q   Can you tell us what Clan would be entitled to use the  name that your mother used?  A   Lax Seel.  Q   Now, did your mother have another name?  Did she go by  another name other than Hahliiyee?  A   Noxs ' Op.  Q   That means Mother of 'Wiigoob'l,  is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, did you have brothers and sisters yourself?  A   I have three brothers, no sisters.  Q   What House were your brothers in?  A   Lax Seel.  Q   Can you tell us some of the other family members who are  members of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o today?  THE INTERPRETER:  Pardon me, is that the English name?  MR. RUSH:  Yes, perhaps we could.  THE WITNESS:  Emma Green.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Perhaps we could also have the Gitksan name as well?  A   T'amamuuest is Emma's name.  Her children.  Sylvester.  Q   What is the    A   Sylvester Green.  He is Gyedimgaldo'o.  Q   He is the present Gyedimgaldo'o?  A   Yes.  Renee Green.  Larry Green.  THE INTERPRETER:  She doesn't know the Gitksan names of the  following, Renee Green, Larry Green.  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  Hazel Holland.  Shirley Gallo.  Martha  Fargie.  THE WITNESS:  Martha Fargie, A'yawasxw.  Cora Gray, Axti'am.  Charlotte  Sullivan,  Biiniks.   Don Walstrom,   Ts'uuhon. 5  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Beatrice Dybwad,  'Wiiksemtsiixw.  George Gray,  Ts'awats'ekxw. Leslie Gray, Aatix'yaats. Doug Moore,  Gisimaksxw. Vincent Moore, Luumashayats. Brian Dybwad,  Skawil.  Q    His name is Skawil?  A    Yes, he just received this name.  Shelly Wright,  Maxlaks.  Sandy Wright, Txahlgitxlomt'ahlxw.  Darren  Wright, Baalimwiltxw.  Darleen Fargie....  THE INTERPRETER: Told her Darleen's name but it slipped her  mind right now. Darleen Fargie.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Now, the people that you just mentioned, are these  members of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes.  Q    Would they all be in the same Clan? Are these members  all of the same Clan?  A    Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  All of her children and her daughter's  grandchildren.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Now, you referred to Emma Green a few moments ago, can  you tell me what is Emma Green's relationship to you?  A    Very close.  We belong to the same House.  Q    Are you blood relatives?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, you referred to Shirley and Hazel I think, are they  Emma's children?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, you mentioned Biiniks earlier and you said that  Biiniks is related to Gyedimgaldo'o;  can you tell us  about Gyedimgaldo'o?  What is the English meaning of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Man of the woods.  Q    Is there a village that Gyedimgaldo'o came from?  THE INTERPRETER:  As far as her memory goes he is from  Gitanmaaxs.  He lived up on the hill.  Q    Is Gitanmaaxs close to Hazelton?  A    It is.  THE INTERPRETER: As far as she's concerned it is one and the  same.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    From your knowledge before Gyedimgaldo'o lived in  Hazelton do you know where Gyedimgaldo'o  came from?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, she doesn't know. 6  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  THE WITNESS:  I don't know.  THE INTERPRETER:  She say, no.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Were you told where he came from?  A    No.  Q Now, you mentioned the name of Skawil and you said there  was a person who presently held the name of Skawil; is  Skawil a Chief's name of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o?  A   Yes, one of the big Chief's name in our House.  Q   Did you know Daniel Skawil?  A   Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  She remembers him.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Do you know when Daniel Skawil died?  THE INTERPRETER:  She can't give you a date but he died in  Stewart, B.C.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Do you remember if he died during your lifetime?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you remember about what age you were when Daniel  Skawil died?  A   I think I was about 3 6 when Daniel died.  Q   Now, when Daniel Skawil was alive, do you know what  Chief's name that he held other than the name of Skawil?  A   Skawil and Biiniks and Xskiigimlaxha.  Q   Was that Xskiigimlaxha?  A   Yes, Xskiigimlaxha.  Q   Was there any other name that he held at the same time?  A   No.  Q   Do you know, did Daniel Skawil have to pay for his  names?  A   Yes, they spent a lot of money when they took their  names.  Q   Daniel paid a lot of money too, did he?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, Skawil sits in the feast hall with Gyedimgaldo'o,  can you tell us where he sits in the feast hall?  A   He sits in front of Gyedimgaldo'o.  Q   Daniel Skawil had some regalia, could you tell us what  regalia he had that you remember?  A   He has a button blanket.  It's in the museum.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN 7  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  WITNESS: The only thing left is the blanket and the  others were burnt when his house burnt down.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Was there anything else that was saved from the fire  apart from the button blanket?  A    No.  Q    Now, Daniel Skawil, he lived in Gitimaax, is that right?  A    Yes, up on the hill here.  Q    Now, the name of Skawil, does the name Skawil go back to  another village before Gitanmaaxs?  THE INTERPRETER:  She never heard of it.  BY MR RUSH:  Q    Now, is there a peace feather in the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    There's a feather and it belongs to Biiniks.  Q    What kind of feather is it?  THE INTERPRETER:  She doesn't know what it was made of but  it's in the possession -- she has it at her house.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Is it a peace feather?  A    Yes.  Q    Can you tell us how you came to have it? Was it given  to you?  THE INTERPRETER: When Daniel Skawil was alive he passed it to  Jessie to take care of because it was related to the  territory and gave her the instruction and whatever else  the House possession that they may relinquish not to  relinquish the territory.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    How is the feather related to the territory?  How did  you get the feather?  A    The Stikeen people killed one of our people on the  territory of Awiijii, Bowser Lake.  His name was  Ne'egun.  Q    Yes.  A    Ne'egun's relatives, one of them was Biiniks, left here  to go and investigate the murder. When they met the  Stikeen people the Stikeen people wanted peace.  In  order to have this peace they gave this feather and some  territory and they went the ritual of peace.  Q    What is the peace settlement in Gitksan?  A    Gawaganii.  Q    Where is the territory that was the settlement  territory? 8  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A    The territory of Awiijii, Bowser Lake, and one of our  people is buried on the edge of the lake.  Xski igimlaxha.  Q    What Clan or House does this territory  now belong to?  A    The House of Gyedimgaldo'o.  Q    Now, the history that you have just told us about  concerning the settlement of the Awiijii and Bowser Lake  territory, did this happen before your birth?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, before she was born.  BY MR. RUSH  Q    Were you told this by people in your family?  THE INTERPRETER:  She was told by Daniel Skawil.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    At the time he told you when he passed on the peace  feather to you?  A    Yes. Along with the feather he gave me to take care of  it and the map of the territory which I still have.  Q    Now, did your mother raise you?  A    Up till I was 11 years old when she died.  Q    Jessie, I'm sorry, I missed one question that I wanted  to ask you about the Awiijii and Bowser Lake territory,  before I go on to ask you who raised you.  I would just  like to ask you who was buried on the territory.  You  mentioned that somebody was buried on the territory,  could you tell us who that is?  A    Nagun.  Q    Is the person who was Nagun, did that person have an  English name as well?  A    No.  I don't remember.  Q    Do you know how Nagun was related,if he was, related  to  Daniel Skawil?  A    His brother.  Q    Do you know the name of Simon Gunnanoot?  A    Gamanuut and he later became Geel.  Q    Do you know whether or not Simon Gunnanoot went to the  territory of Awiijii and Bowser Lake as well?  A    Yes, he was on the territory. He is the son of Nagun.  MR.  RUSH:   I see.  THE INTERPRETER: She was just relating how after the murder  that was blamed on him he spent time on the territory,  that is where he was.  MR.  RUSH:   I see.  THE WITNESS:  He left the territory  when his father Nagun  died.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you for going back to that. 9  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q    I want to come now to ask you, after your mother died  when you were 11 years old, who was it that raised you?  THE INTERPRETER:  Her sister Noxs To'o.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    What was your mother's sister's English name?  A    Lucy Morrison.  Q    Was Lucy Morrison related at all to Daniel Skawil?  A    Yes. They were House members.  Q    Now, you earlier talked about where Daniel Skawil sat at  the feast hall, and you said that he sat in front of  Gyedimgaldo'o; was this at the time before there were  tables at the feast?  A    Yes.  Q    Today when a feast is held there are tables at the feast  hall and the seating arrangement,  is it the same or  different than the old days?  A    It's the same.  Q    Now, do you remember when you were younger if the feast  was ever banned?  A    I can't remember what year but the Government banned the  feast.  Q    Did the people of your Wilp or the people of your  village continue to hold the feast anyway?  A    When it was necessary, when someone died they would  still have the feast but they would --it was done on  the sly, where they would cover all the windows and lock  the doors.  Q    Do you remember how long you had to hold feasts on the  sly, covering the windows and locking the doors?  A    I can't remember just how long it was but it was during  that period the feast kind of died down a bit.  Q    Now, when you lived in Gitanmaaxs where did you first  live?  Do you remember where your house was in  Gitanmaaxs?  A    I don't remember but I was told that our first house was  where the Inlander Hotel is presently situated.  Q    Where did you live with your auntie when she was looking  after you?  A    We lived up on the hill.  Q    Did you live in a longhouse up on the hill?  THE INTERPRETER: No. It was only when her mother was alive  they lived in the longhouse.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Now, when your mother was alive you say that you lived  in a longhouse, where was that longhouse?  A    Just above the hill, above here. 10  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q    Whose longhouse was it?  A    The House of Gyedimgaldo'o and the pole that is down by  the library now was in front of the house then.  Q    Was there another house that was besides Gyedimgaldo'o's  longhouse?  A    Yes, House of Noxs To'o.  Q    The House of Noxs To'o?  A    The House of 'Wiigoob'l.  Q    Were these three houses, these three longhouses, side by  side when you were a little girl up on the hill?  A    Yes.   OFF THE RECORD  THE WITNESS:  There was not side by side as you say but there was  a nuclear --  THE INTERPRETER:   I guess that is the term we use --  THE WITNESS:  -- there was a nuclear house between Guuhadakxw  and the House of 'Wiigoob'l.  There was the nuclear  houses among them.  Q    In addition to the longhouse?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes, the longhouses.  MR. RUSH:  Yes, I understand.  Q    I want to show you a couple of pictures, Jessie,  if you  can just show us where the houses were located?  I am  going to show you these photographs  and do you see  Gyedimgaldo'o's longhouse in the photograph?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes, she's identified the three houses that  are here.  MR. RUSH: Just pause there for a minute. Would you turn the  photograph toward me and toward the camera and just  point to the houses that have been identified as the  houses in the photograph?  THE INTERPRETER:   This is the House of Gyedimgaldo'o,  Guuhadakxw....  MR. RUSH:   Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:   And there is another one at the end here,  you can just see part of it, 'Wiigoob'l's house.  MR. RUSH:  I am going to put "G" on Gyedimgaldo' o' s house,  just so we know that.  MR. PLANT:  Will you get Mrs. Sterritt to confirm that  identification?  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Just let me give you that photograph again, the  longhouse with the "G" on the roof is Gyedimgaldo' o' s  longhouse? 11  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A    Yes.  Q    Then the house, if you would just point it again at the  camera, the house to the left of Gyedimgaldo'o's house,  is that Guuhadakxw?  A    Guuhadakxw.  Q    That is Guuhadakxw's longhouse?  A    Yes.  Q    If you go further along the photograph, you pointed to  'Wiigoob'1's, that is where you're pointing now?  A    Yes.  MR. RUSH:  I'm going to put "W" on that house.  THE INTERPRETER:  You can only see part of it there.  MR. RUSH: Yes.  Thank you.  MR. PLANT: You will get her to confirm that one more time?  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    If you would take that one more time, where I have  placed the "W" on the photograph, that is the longhouse  of 'Wiigoob'l?  A    Yes.  MR. PLANT: Could I have the Gitksan spelling of that last  name?  MR.  RUSH:  W-I-I-G-0-O-B-L.     OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    I just wanted to ask you, whose longhouse is it to the  right of Gyedimgaldo'o's house?  There appears to be  another house there? Do you remember whose house that  was?  A    It's just a small house.  Q    I see.  A    That the people of Gyedimgaldo'o live in this house.  I  remember sleeping in that house.  Q    In Gyedimgaldo'o's house was there a fire in the middle  of the longhouse?  A    Yes.  Q    This is where your mother lived before she died when you  were aged 11?  A    My mother died after we moved out and we had our own  house down the river here.  MR. PLANT:  Down by the ferry?  THE INTERPRETER:  There used to be a ferry.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    How old were you while your mother was still alive when 12  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  you lived in the houses that are shown in the  photograph?  If you remember?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:   She's trying to get an answer to your  question. She must have been -- she was starting school  anyway -- she had started school so she must have  been....  THE WITNESS:   (In English) Seven or eight.  THE INTERPRETER:   Not too sure.  MR. RUSH: We have gone a long time and perhaps we could just  take a break now.  What I'll do, have the photograph marked as Exhibit  one. We can do that and have the break at this time.  Have coffee now.    EXHIBIT NO. 1 - Black and white photograph of  longhouses.    SHORT RECESS  MR. RUSH:  Can we start again?  We'll start the Commission  again now.  Q    The houses, the longhouses that you have shown us in the  photograph, did Daniel Skawil live in one of these  houses when you were a little girl, to your memory?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  He had a house just beside the --in the  beginning was over here and it was an old house so he  built another one and it was besides Guuhadakxw's house.  It was just a nuclear house.  That is the one that  burned down.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    And Daniel Skawil's house would be on the photograph  just to the left of Guuhadakxw's house?  A    Yes.  Q    Thank you very much. Fine.  You mentioned that you were raised by your auntie  Lucy, can you tell us did your aunt marry?  Was she  married?  A    Yes, she was married to 'Wiik'aax.  Q    What Clan or P'tekt was 'Wiik'aax from? 13  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A Lax Gibuu, Wolf Clan.  Q What Wilp was 'Wiik'aax from?  A The House of Lax Gibuu,  is big Chief from Kispiox.  Q Do you remember the English name for 'Wiik'aax?  A Daniel.  ' Wiiminoosikx.  THE INTERPRETER:  That was his English name.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  At that time they, when the D.I.A. set up and  start giving them English names they would use the  Gitksan names. That would be his father's name that he  would use.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    So 'Wiik'aax would use his father's Gitksan name?  A    Yes.     OFF THE RECORD IN GITKSAN  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Now, you've told us about Xskiigimlaxha, was there a  separate Wilp or house from Xskiigimlaxha?  A    No, they're all the same.  Q    Was Xskiigimlaxha in the House of Gyedimgaldo'o'?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, you have told us that your mother's sister, Lucy,  her Gitksan name was Noxs To'o?  A    Right.  Q    Did she have any other Gitksan names?  A    'Wiiksemtsiixw.  Q    Did your mother -- did Lucy rather divorce and remarry  during her lifetime that you remember?  A    Yes, she was married and separated from Bill, she had a  divorce.  Q    Did she have a divorce feast, to your rememberance?  A    Yes.  Q    Do you remember what age you were at that time when it  happened?  A    About 13.  Q    Did you go to the divorce feast?  A    Yes.  Q    Was there money spent at the feast in order for the  divorce to occur?  A    Yes.  Q    Can you tell us what you remember about the divorce  feast? 14  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  At the feast one of the things she had to do was  -- Noxs To'o had to do was to sing the family divorce  song and to dance with her wilksiwitxw, the people from  her father's side.  This was when she got her divorce  name.  THE INTERPRETER:  You remember you asked what her other name  was,   'Wiiksemtsiixw.  MR RUSH:   Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  This is when she took this name, when she  got the divorce.  MR. RUSH:  She took the name at that feast?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Do you remember the divorce song?  A   No.  Q   Did Noxs To'o or Lucy, did she have to pay money at the  divorce feast?  A   Yes.  Q   Were there many witnesses present, that you remember?  A   Yes, the hall was packed. She held her divorce feast at  the house next door to Gyedimgaldo'o', the house of  Guuhadakxw.  Q   Was there anything that you did as a young girl at the  divorce feast that was special that you remember?  A   No.  Q   Now, you said that it was Noxs To'o that raised you, did  she adopt you or announce at a feast that she was going  to be looking after you after your mother died?  A   It is one of our laws in our culture that when the  mother dies the sister becomes the mother, and Noxs  Ganii who was up on the Nass River wanted me to go and  live with her but Noxs To'o wanted to keep me so that is  where I stayed.  Q   I see.  What child -- you had a Gitksan child name, can  you tell us what your Gitksan child name was?  A   Ksiiguuxt.  Q   What's Ksiiguuxt mean in English?  A   In English it means trying to shoot, attempting to shoot  an animal.  Q   All right. Do you remember when you got the name of  Ksiiguuxt?  A   I don't remember.  Q   Now, did you give this name to anybody?  A   I pass it on to Martha and now one of my grandchildren 15  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  has it.  Q    Is the name of your grandchild that now has the name,  Darleen?  A    Yes.  Q    Do you remember when you passed on the name to Darleen?  A    I can't remember the year.  MR.  RUSH:  Okay.  THE INTERPRETER:  If she had known this was all going to  happen she would have written everything down.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Do you remember whether it was recently or a long time  ago that you passed the name on to Darleen?  A    It's not too long ago.  Q    How old is Darleen?  A    She's past 20.  Q    Now, did you have other names as a child, other Gitksan  names?  A    No, that was only child name.  Q    When you get older and you pass out of childhood did you  have another name, that was when you were younger?  A    I got the name Axti' am when I was about 20.  Q    Do you know who held the name Axti'am before you?  A    Ernest Wade.  Q    Was he related to Gyedimgaldo'o'?  A    Yes.  Q    What was the relationship?  A    Gyedimgaldo'o's brother.  Q    Now, when you took another name did you pass the name of  Axti'am on to somebody else?  A    I pass on to Cora Gray.  THE INTERPRETER:  She passed the name on to Cora when she took  the name A'yawasxw.  MR. RUSH: Who held that name before?  THE INTERPRETER:  A'yawasxw?  MR. RUSH: Yes, A'yawasxw.  THE WITNESS: Charlie Clifford.  MR. RUSH: A'yawasxw would be Jessie's third name, is that  right?  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Now, you have the name of 'Wiigoob'l, did you pass the  name of A'yawasxw on to somebody?  A    I pass it to Martha when I received the name 'Wiigoob'l.  Q    What do you call in Gitksan, what do you say when you  pass a name along like that to other members of the 16  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  House?  A    When you pass on a name you say we float the name to the  next --to your daughter or to your daughter's daughter.  Q    I see.  A    Or your brother.  Q    When did you take the name of 'Wiigoob'l?  A    I took when Charlie Oop died.  THE INTERPRETER:  There might be a slight correction there.  She received her name 'Wiigoob'l when Albert Brown  died. He held the name after Charlie, Charlie Oop.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    So prior to Jessie holding the name of 'Wiigoob'l it was  held by Albert Brown?  A    Yes.  Q    Then prior to Albert Brown the name was held by Charlie  Oop?  A    Yes.  Q    Charlie Oop, is that short for Charlie 'Wiigoob'l?  A    Yes.     OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Do you remember when Albert Brown died how old you were  when you took the Chief's name of 'Wiigoob'l?  A    (In English)  In the thirties or....    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: (In English) Around there somewhere.  THE INTERPRETER: It was in the thirties sometimes when Albert  Brown died and she took the name.  She can't give you  the exact year.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Do you remember how long you held the name, your third  name, Ks i iguuxt ?  THE INTERPRETER:  She held it for a while but she can't give  you any number of years.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Now,  in your House or Wilp, can you tell us how did  members of the House help each other in times of need?  A    They help each other by contributing towards the  expenses.  The expenses of the death if there is a  death. 17  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  And at this time when there is a feast it is in  just the House we all belong, Gyedimgaldo'o, it is all  the people of the Lax Seel Clan help.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Now, in the old days what was used to contribute towards  the expenses by the people of the House?  A    A long time ago --  THE INTERPRETER:   -- she does not remember  this, she didn't  see it --  THE WITNESS:  -- they used animal skins, ground hog skins.  MR.  RUSH:   Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:   She does remember when they used Hudson Bay  blankets.  THE WITNESS:  They would tear them in pieces and each witness  would get a square.  They called it haxbiisa, that is a  torn piece.  MR. RUSH:  Haxbiisa.  THE INTERPRETER:  Later on she remembers that they used   THE WITNESS:  (In English) Moose hide, and those are cut in  squares too.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Those were the valued materials that were given as  expenses for the feast hall?  A    Yes.  Today they use money.  Q    Who told you about the use of the ground hog skins at  the feast hall?  A    The elders of the House.  Q    Were those used by those elders during their lifetime?  A    Yes.  Q    When there was a dispute in your Wilp or House, can you  tell me how the members of your Wilp resolved those  disputes?  A    I can't say it because I'm not sure.  THE INTERPRETER:  As far as she knows it was just the problem  was ironed out just among themselves.   She doesn't --  she didn't see this in her lifetime but she was told  that they used the term xsiixw whenever  there is a  problem with other Clans or other nations, and if there  was a problem they would go buy material, like we talk  about, and they made a settlement.  MR.  RUSH:  I see.  THE INTERPRETER:  To establish  the peace. 18  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  BY MR. RUSH: Q     Did  members of the Wilp or House ever use peace  down or peace feathers to resolve disputes?  A    Yes, they used peace down. They used the term halayt.  Q    Okay.  A    The Chief would have the down, they would put the feast  down in the amhalayt, the head gear that they would  wear, the Chief would wear. Then they would dance and  the peace down would be passed down on the people that  were having the problems.  This is how they established  peace.  Q    When they established peace in the way that you have  described would they do this at a feast?  A    Yes.  Q    When you put the peace down, was there a song that was  sung?  A    The Chief that was doing the dance would have his own  breath   song and that is what they would sing.  We  call it limx ksenaahlxw in our culture.  Q    That is the Gitksan word for the breath song?  A    Yes.  Q    The Chief would sing the song during the dance of the  feast?  A    Yes.  Q    Would anyone else sing a song at these feasts?  A    Usually the people who know the song join in.  Q    Would there be any speeches at the feast as well?  A    The Chiefs would speak.  Q    And would they speak about the dispute and the  resolution?  A    Yes.  Q    You referred to a halayt I think was the word, which  halayt would be used, do you remember?  A    There are different halayts.  The healing halayt we call  halaydim swanasxw. It would be another kind of halayt  that would sing the song but he is different from the  healing halayt.  Q    Would this be known as the healing halayt? Would that  be the right way to describe it?  A    No, it would be the. . . .  THE INTERPRETER:  She used the word peacemaker.  MR.  RUSH:  I see.  Q    Now, in the old days to your memory or from what you  were told do you remember how the members of the Wilp  owned things?  Did they own their material things  together or own them separately?  A    A long time ago it was owned by the House, everything 19  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  was owned by the House.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  MR. RUSH:  Vi, just pause for a minute, the tape   THE INTERPRETER:   I was clarifying  something here.  MR. PLANT:  Will you get the clarification?  MR. RUSH:   Yes.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Just continuing on from the last answer, there was a  clarification I think that you had conversed with Jessie  about and I wonder  if you can tell us what the  clarification  was concerning  my last question?   The  ownership of the property in the old days, whether it  was done together or collectively or separately?  A   If you are talking about things that belong to the name,  pass on to the person who they put the name on, when the  person dies, things like the blanket and anything that  goes with the name is passed on.  Q   This would be like the regalia?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, regalia is the word.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Is the regalia owned collectively by the House or  separately?  A   Yes, it is owned by the House.  Q   Now,  is that true today as well?  A   Yes, it's the same today.  Q   What happened in the old days if some member of the Wilp  stole some material things from another member of the  Wilp?  A   That doesn't happen very often but it does happen.  THE INTERPRETER:  With her own House, the rattle that we talk  about the other day is held by somebody  else.  Although  she knows it belongs to her House she can't ask for it  because she expects the other person to do what is right  and return  it to her.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   In the old days when there was a theft was there any way  in which the thief was dealt with?  A   I can't answer that because I'm not sure.  Q   Who was responsible in the old days for the education of  the children in the Wilp? 20  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   It was the responsibility of the elders of the House to  pass on the knowledge of the history of the House and  anything that may enhance the lives of the young people  of the House, and it was usually not related to another  House,  it was something that was kept right in the  House, the methods that they used.  Q   Now, did they teach about the laws or the ayook of the  House?  A   Yes.  Q   Can you tell me what kind of laws or ayook would the  elders teach to the young?  A   They were told about the resources of their territory.  The hunting grounds.  And fishing grounds and berry  picking ground.  Q   Were there special laws that were taught to young girls?  A   The female elders, it was their responsibility  to teach  young females of the House how to survive and all things  that would enhance their lives.  Q   When the young girls moved from childhood into  adolescence and reached puberty were there special laws  that were taught to them?  A   When a young female reached that puberty stage they were  removed from the main house and they lived in isolation.  They were put in where it was darkened to protect their  eyes. They were not allowed to eat fresh food.  Either  salmon or meat. The reason for the rule to not eat  fresh salmon is that so to protect the hunters that if  these females in this state, in the puberty stage, ate  fresh meat the belief was that scare animals away.  The  term we use is hawahlxw.  THE INTERPRETER:  Hawahlxw means -- taboo's I guess, not to do  things.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   When the young girls were separated from the rest of the  House were they taught things that were thought to be a  secret?  A   The elders of their House saw them and visited them.  Q   Okay. When you reached the age of adolescence  were you  secluded from the rest of the House?  A   Yes, we were on the hunting trail, on the hunting  territories when I reached this stage and I was removed  from the main camp.  Q   What distance were you removed from the main camp?  How  far away?  A   I could see the camp.  Q   Were other people with you?  Were other females with 21  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  you?  A    My cousin was allowed to stay with me.  THE INTERPRETER:  It is usually a year they're in seclusion  but because they were on the territory at the time it  happened to her she had to come home.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Do you remember how long it was you were in seclusion?  A    (In English) Six or seven months.  Q    Do you remember the territory that you were on at the  time?  A    Xsu'wiiaks' territory.  The territory of 'Wiik'aax.  Q    During that period of six or seven months were you  taught special things as a woman during the period?  A    I was taught things that would enhance my life.  Q    Were you taught anything about future marriage or how to  be a better wife or mother?  THE INTERPRETER:   She was told many thing but the decision in  the end was hers. She made the decision of the  particular things she would do in order to survive.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Can you remember any example of one of the things that  you were taught during that period?  A    It was just general things that were taught the females  of the day, like how to put up the food staples, like  the fish. How to dry the berries. How to look after a  garden.  Q    Now, we've talked a bit about what young girls were  taught, were there special laws that were also taught to  young boys?  THE INTERPRETER:   She can't be specific but it was just  general things that a young boy is taught,  like hunting  and means of survival  that related to those days.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    And the things you have said about what you were taught,  what other girls were  taught and what young boys were  taught, these were things -- did they occur during your  lifetime?  A    Yes.  Q    When you were young whose responsibility  was it in the  Wilp to look after the young children?  A    It was the responsibility of the elders of the House to  teach the children.  Q    Is that responsibility on the elders today as well?  A    Today there are some who try to fulfill the 22  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  responsibility but because of the two cultures it is a  little bit difficult.  Q   Are you one of those who teaches your grandchildren?  A   I teach my children,  it is a little bit difficult to  teach the grandchildren because of the language barrier,  many of them do not speak the Gitksan language.  Q   I just have one more question to ask and I think it  might be good if we took a break then.  I just wanted to ask who looked after the old  people in the Wilp?  THE INTERPRETER:  She remembers when she looked after the  elders of her House when there was nobody else to do it.  Although she did not live in the House she went there  every day to prepare food for them and see that they  were comfortable.  It is the responsibility of the House  members to look after their elders.  It was during this time on one of her visits there  that she found one of them had died. That happened in  that House that we pointed out, the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o'.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Was this elder that she looked after, was that  Gyedimgaldo'o' himself?  A   Yes.  MR. RUSH:  I think we should take a break now, perhaps we can  close off at this point.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.35 p.m.   UPON RESUMING AT 1.45 p.m.  MR. RUSH:  Let's convene now, Jessie and Vi.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH  (continued)  Q   I would like to ask you, Jessie, can you speak for the  Houses from the Wilps of Gyedimgaldo'o',  Xskiigimlaxha  and 'Wiigoob'l?  THE INTERPRETER:  If they're not present she can speak for  those people.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Can you speak for those people today?  A   Yes.  Q   Now,  I would like to ask you about adoptions into the 23  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Wilp; could you tell me the Gitksan word for adoption?  A    (In English) You can say taking them into the House.  Q    What is the Gitksan word for taking them into the House?  A    Se Lax Seel.  THE Interpreter:  In Gitksan we say that for her because she  belongs to the Lax Seel.  MR. RUSH:  I understand.  Q    Have you adopted anyone into your House?  Into your  Wilp?  A    I have adopted three people into my House. Linda  Matthews, Audrey Woods and Willie Simms.  I put on the  House names on Linda, Laxmooxsxw.   On Audrey I gave her  the name Nagan.  And William Simms I gave him the name  Ts'ayee.  Q    What is the English meaning for the Gitksan name  Ts'ayee, Willie Simms name?  A    It has two meanings.  Ts'ayee in English would mean  treading heavily or stepping heavily.  Q    Yes?  A    And it also means if something tragic happens, they use  that term.  If something tragic happens they use the  term like something that would cause pain or death or  something.  Q    That is the meaning of Ts'ayee?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, are Linda and Audrey related?  A    Linda and Audrey are nephew....  THE INTERPRETER:   The father of Linda and Audrey is her  nephew. She raised the father of Linda and Audrey and  she called Philip her son because she raised him when  Philip's mother died.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    What is Philip's last English name?  A    Morrison.  Q    So Linda and Audrey are the daughters of Philip  Morrison?  A    Yes.  Q    I see.  Now, you also said you adopted Willie Simms,  using his English name, did you adopt Smoky Morrison?  A    No.  In our culture our sister's children are our  children.  Q    I see.  Of the three people that you adopted can you  tell me why you adopted these people into your House?  A    Concerning Willie Simms he belonged to the Wet'suwet'en  people and he married a Gitksan woman and he wanted to  belong. 24  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  THE INTERPRETER:  So his wife came to Jessie and asked Jessie  if she would take him in.  MR. RUSH:  And she did?  THE INTERPRETER:  She did, yes.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    What about Audrey and Linda, why were they adopted into  your Wilp?  THE INTERPRETER:  When their father died they wanted to belong  to Jessie's House.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Was there an adoption feast?  A    It's always done at a feast, a very big feast.  Q    Did your Wilp sponsor the feast to adopt the three  people into the Wilp?  THE INTERPRETER:  When she took Audrey and Linda in she  adopted Audrey and Linda when her son Tommy died.  It is  always at their own feasts that they do the adoption.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    At this feast was it required for you to pay for the  witnessing of the adoption?  A    Yes, it was and the adopted people are required to spend  money.  Q    Were the Gitksan names announced at the adoption feast  by yourself?  A    Yes, I did it.  Q    Was it you as 'Wiigoob'l or the whole Wilp that  contributed to the cost of sponsoring the witnesses at  the feast?  A    My immediate family all helped and then all the members  of the Lax Seel people helped.  Q    So it was the members of the P'tekt    A    Yes.  Q     that contributed at the feast?  A    Yes.  Q    I see. Now, was a record kept of the contributions that  were made at the feast by members of Lax Seel?  A    Yes, we have a record and Tribal Council has a record.  Q    Now that Audrey and Linda have been adopted into your  Wilp, what rights do they have as adopted members?  A    They have all the rights of the rest of the members of  the Gyedimgaldo'o House.  Q    Now, to your knowledge has there ever been an adoption  of a member of your Wilp into another Wilp?  A    No. 25  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  THE INTERPRETER:  She doesn't recall it.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Would you allow that? As Chief in your House would you  allow the adoption of the member of your Wilp into  another Wilp?  A   No, because of the limited number of members I have  chosen not to allow it. But it does happen in other --  that they do adopt for many reasons. Because of their  limited number.  THE INTERPRETER:  She couldn't remember the name of where it  happened but at Kispiox because of the dwindling numbers  of the House members they will adopt a female.  It does  happen.  She doesn't think she will let any of her  females go.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   So it does happen that if a Wilp requires females that  females may be adopted into the Wilp, is that correct?  A   Yes, they will adopt a female but they adopt males too.  Q   In some circumstances to your knowledge have females  been adopted because they were females and needed in the  particular  Wilp?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, when the adoptions occur that you have spoken of do  these adoptions occur between the Houses which are  close, the Wilps which are close?  THE INTERPRETER:   Would you ask your question again?  MR. RUSH:  I'll re-phrase the question a little bit.  Q   When it is necessary to adopt into your Wilp will you  adopt from a Wilp that is close to your Wilp and in the  same Clan or P'tekt? Or will you go outside?  A   Yes, because they can be adopted from the same P'tekt.  Q   Yes?  A   Or sometimes they adopt them because somebody from  another nation, like perhaps the Nisga, would marry into  the Gitksan nation and the Nisga could be adopted into  the House.  Q   I want to ask you now about your -- some more about your  family; can you tell us your father's name?  A   Ah Lumm.  Q   He was Chinese, was he?  A   Yes, Chinese.  Q   Was he adopted into the Wilp?  Into your Wilp?  A   No.  Q   Did he take part in the Gitksan culture?  A   No. 26  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   When you were a child who did you spend most of your  childhood with?  A   Until my mother died I was with my mother and my father.  Q   And after that you have I think testified    THE INTERPRETER:  Then she spent her time with her mother's  sister.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   I think you said your mother's sister was married,  to  whom was she married?  A   First husband was Philip Morrison.  Q   And what P'tekt was he in?  A   Lax Gibou.  Wolf.  Q   What was his Wilp?  A   Wilp Saxtooxsxw, the House of Saxtooxsxw.  Q   You indicated that she separated from Philip Morrison,  did she remarry?  A   She then married Gale.  Q   What was Gale's first name?  A   Walter.  Q   And what was his Wilp?  A   Giskaast, the Fireweed.  Q   Now, was that his Wilp or was that his P'tekt?  THE INTERPRETER:  What are you referring to?  MR. RUSH: I was asking the name of Gale's Wilp.  THE WITNESS:  Gale is very big Chief in the Fireweed Clan and  refer to his House as Gale's House.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   So it would be the Wilp of Gale?  A   Yes.  Q   As a young child were you close to the Wilp of Philip  Morrison?  A   Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  She was very close between the two Houses.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   You know the father's side of the House, wilksiwitxw,  in  English what is the meaning of the term of wilksiwitxw?  A   When we use the term wilksiwitxw we are referring to our  father's side.  THE INTERPRETER:  She is talking about me, Charlie Clifford is  my father and he comes from Jessie's House so Jessie is  my wilksiwitxw.  That is my father's family and all her  family.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Since your father was not of Gitksan origin who was 27  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  your wilksiwitxw?  A    I refer to my mother's father's side of the family    Q    I see.  A     as my wilksiwitxw.  Q    So you go back one generation to your mother's husband's  side?  A    Yes.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    I think it was my mistake, Jessie, can you tell us again  since your father was not Gitksan who is your  wilksiwitxw?  A    My wilksiwitxw are my mother's father's people.  Q    My mother's father.  All right.  Now, is that part of the rules or laws of the  Gitksan people that you refer to your mother's father's  wilksiwitxw if you don't have wilksiwitxw in your  father?  A    Yes, it is.  Q    Now, what was your relationship with your own father,  Mr. Lumm?  A    It was very close, we lived as a family.  Q    Okay.  A    He was a prospector but whenever he was home he was with  us.  Q    Did he live with you -- how long did he live with you?  A    Until my mother died he lived with us.  Q    After your mother died what happened to your father?  A    He returned to his homeland, China.  He always mentioned  the City or whatever it is, Hong Kong. He would return  occasionally to Canada and he wanted to take us back  with him.  I was willing to go with him but my brother  did not want to go.  And he promised to send us back to  Canada when we had grown up. I chose not to go because  I thought I would be lonely if I went by myself.  Q    Did you maintain contact with your father?  A    Yes, he would write letters. He would send us pictures  but we'd lost them during the flood.  Q    If there was a need by you for help from your  wilksiwitxw would you get help from your wilksiwitxw?  A    If you are referring to my father's side, when they were  here for many years they helped me when I needed help  and they would come to me.  Q    When your father left would you be able to count on help  from your mother's father's side? 28  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A Yes, they help me.  Q I want now to turn to your marriage.  I would like to  ask you, you were married to Simon Wright?  A Yes.  Q Simon Wright was your first husband, was he?  A Yes.  Q Was this an arranged marriage?  A Yes, it was an arranged marriage.  Q Could you tell me who arranged the marriage for you?  A My mother was married to Simon's father, uncle. They  arranged the marriage.  Q What was Simon's uncle's name?  A 'Wiik'aax.  Q How old were you when the marriage was arranged for you?  A I was about 16.  Q How long were you married with Simon?  A About seven years.  Q You had four children, did you?  A Yes,  four children.  Q I think two are still alive today, are they?  A Yes, just two of the four are alive today.  Q Who is alive today?  A Martha Ridgedale and Cora Gray.  Q When you were young was it common for marriages to be  arranged for Gitksan women?  A Yes it was.  Q What P'Tekt Was Simon Wright from?  A Lax Gibuu, Wolf Clan.  Q What was his Wilp?  A The House of 'Wiik'aax.  MR. PLANT:   What House?  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   What House was Simon from?  A   House of 'Wiik'aax.  Q   What was Simon's Gitksan name?  A   Lax diihl.  Q   Was Simon Wright a simooget or Chief at the time you got  married?  A   Not at the time we were married.  Q   Did he become simooget later in his life?  A   Yes, later on he was Chief.  After I left, after the  marriage was over.  Q   Did you visit the territory of Simon Wright when you  were married with Simon?  A   I was on the territory before the marriage because his  uncle     was   there     and  after  the     marriage. 29  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q   Can you tell us where the territory was located?  A   The territory Xsu'wiiaks.  THE INTERPRETER:  She can't give you the English term.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Is the territory located to a place that has an English  name?  A   It is in the area of Bear Lake and Skeena River.  MR. RUSH:  Now, did she say that there was at a point where  Bear Lake met the Skeena River?  I wasn't quite....    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   After your separation from Simon Wright you married  Thomas Danes, is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   You were married to Thomas for about three years?  A    (In English) Three or four,  five.  THE INTERPRETER:  Not too sure. Three or four years.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   After you separated from Thomas Danes you married Gus  Walstrom,  is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   Did you have children by Gus Walstrom?  A   Two, Donald and Charlotte.  Q   Did Gus Walstrom die during your marriage?  A   Yes, he died in an accident.  Q   After his death did you then marry Charlie Sterritt?  A   Yes.  Q   Now,  in your Wilp if you need help or assistance of any  kind from another Wilp or other family members what Wilp  would you go to get that help?  THE INTERPRETER:  Would you ask your question again?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  Q   In your Wilp would you get help from another Wilp if you  needed it?  A   In the feast hall if I need help I would get help from  another House, my father's House.  In our term we say it  is a blanket, they wrap us in a blanket to help us. So  we are calling it sebilaatxw.  Sebilaatxw is blanket or  mattress underneath you, that is how we interpret it in  English. 30  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  THE INTERPRETER:  Those are her father's people.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Would that be the wilksiwitxw?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Now, what village does your Wilp belong to?  A   Gitanmaaxs.  Q   I think you said that Hazelton and Gitanmaaxs was one  and the same to you?  A   Yes, it is one.  They change the names when the white  people started to come.  That is when they acquired the  name Hazelton.  Q   Have you lived in Gitanmaaxs all your life?  A   Yes, all my life.  Q   I think you said something earlier about that, living  down where the Inlander was located?  A   Yes, it was the old home,  I don't remember it.  Q   You must have been very young then?  THE INTERPRETER: She thought maybe even before she was born  that they lived there.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   When did your family move from where the Inlander Hotel  is located?  THE INTERPRETER: Her memory goes back to when they lived in  the House of Gyedimgaldo'o.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q   Is that up on the hill that you have pointed out?  A   Yes, the House we identified in the picture.  Q   That's Exhibit one I think.  Now, after living in  Gyedimgaldo'o's  House where did you move after that?  A   We moved down river close to where the ferry used to be  situated.   In a log cabin.  Q   When you lived in Gyedimgaldo'o's House were there many  people living in the house with you?  A   There were many.  Q   Now, when there was a major feast that was called by the  people living in Gitanmaaxs what other villages would  people be called from?  A   They called the people from Gitanmaaxs, Kispiox, and all  the surrounding villages.  Q   Do you know about the Grease Trail, Jessie?  THE INTERPRETER:  She was never on them but she heard about  them. 31  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    The Grease Trail is called in Gitksan?  A    Genim wiluusim.  Q    Genim meaans trail, does it?  THE INTERPRETER:  Or road or path.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    And wiluusim means grease?  A    Wiluusim refers to the process of the ooligan grease or  drying of the fish itself.  Q    Now, do you know where the Grease Trail went and what it  was used for?  THE INTERPRETER:  She was told that there was one that led  from Kispiox to the Nass.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Did you trade for grease yourself?  A    Not personally but the people....  THE INTERPRETER:  Her aunt, Noxs Ganii from the Nass would  always send the grease to her auntie Noxs To'o.  Q    Would you send something back to her for the grease?  THE INTERPRETER:  She remembers when her aunt send back dried  berries.  MR. RUSH: I notice Jessie was rolling her hands?  THE INTERPRETER:  That would be the bundle.  They rolled them  after they dried them.  MR. RUSH: I see.  This would be....  A    They would be a certain height, they would roll them off  the racks that they dried them on and tied them with  cedar bark.  Q    These were rolls of dried berries?  A    Yes.  Q    Wrapped in cedar bark?  A    Tied in cedar bark.  Q    Tied in cedar bark. These would have been sent to your  aunt in the Nass?  A    Yes.  Q    And this would be for the ooligan grease that your aunt  there would send here?  A    Yes, it was traded for that.  Q    In Gitanmaaxs are there only Houses of Gyedimgaldo'o  that are located in Gitanmaaxs?  Maybe I should frame it another way.  There are a  number of Houses, Wilp, that are located in the village  of Gitanmaaxs,  is that right?  THE INTERPRETER:  She can remember when there was one at the  foot of the hill and besides the three she mentioned to 32  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  you that is as far as her memory goes.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Now, did these Houses or Wilps work together on common  feasts or common projects in the village?  A   Yes. Yes. Whenever there was a project, and I remember  a project when they fill the hall, everybody in the  village, that is when they had teams and horses to haul  lumber,  it was all volunteer work.  Q   The hall you're referring to,  is that the Gitanmaaxs  hall?  A   Yes, the one that was up on top of the hill here. It  burnt down.  Q   Now, when your Wilp participated in a feast would the  other Wilps from Gitanmaaxs participate in the feast?  A   When there was a traditional feast, helped to provide  the eats but if it was a project like the hall it was  all the people, no matter what P'tekt they belong.  Q   What is P'tekt?  That is the Clan, is it?  A   That is the Clan.  THE INTERPRETER:  Like Lax Seel or Wolf???.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   They would participate, the Clan together would  participate in the feast?  THE INTERPRETER:  At the traditional feast when there's a  death?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes,  just the Clan.  MR. RUSH:  Okay.  THE INTERPRETER:  And the other two Clans would be guests or  witnesses.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   At the feast hosted by   THE INTERPRETER:  By certain, like Lax Seel if it were her  house, it would be Lax Seel.  MR. RUSH:  Okay.  THE INTERPRETER:  The difference, when there's a common  project like the hall all the different Clans would  participate.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Now,  in your Clan was there one simooget who had a  little more authority than the other simooget Chiefs?  A   Yes, there is one Chief.  THE INTERPRETER:  In her House it would be Gyedimgaldo'o. 33  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Do you remember a time when you were young when  Gyedimgaldo'o signed certain leases on behalf of the  Gitanmaaxs village?  A    It was Gyedimgaldo'o who signed the lease paper when the  hospital leased some of their Reserve Land.  Q    Was this the Wrinch Hospital?  A    Yes.  Q    When Gyedimgaldo'o signed those lease papers with the  Wrinch Hospital did he consult with other members of the  House?  THE INTERPRETER:  This was before her time but she was just  told that was what the people decided for the good of  the village.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Was she told that the House decided to do it together  with Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    It was the whole village that decided, so he was the  main spokesman for the Gitanmaaxs  village.  Q    Were there other community projects in Gitanmaaxs where  the Chiefs got together and made a decision to build  something or undertake a project?  A    Yes, when the totem park was built it was a village  project.  Q    Were there other village projects that you remember?  THE INTERPRETER:  The other projects she remembers that the  whole village participate is when they surrendered the  land where the present high school is located.  That was  a village project.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Did the Chiefs participate in the construction of the  school?  A    No, it was strictly white people's project.  Q    Sorry.  carry on?  A    The actual building was by the white people.  Q    But was there a decision made to release the land for  the construction  of the school?  A    It was just the land that they were involved in.  Q    Do a number of children from the Gitanmaaxs community  participate and go to school in the high school in  Hazelton?  A    That was the understanding that they had with the school  board that the Native children would be able to get a  better education because previously it was just the  Indian day school run by the Government, previously by  the churches, and they felt it was inadequate.  They  really couldn't participate  in society, to live in the 34  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  society that they weren't equipped, that was the  understanding and that was the reason they decided to  give up the territory for the children to be educated  along with the white children.  Q    By the territory you mean the piece of land that the  school sits on?  A    It was part of the Reserve.  Q    Now, do you remember Gyedimgaldo'o travelling to Ottawa  concerning the land of the Gitanmaaxs village?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, she remembers when she was very small  that a number of the Chiefs from the area went.   The  Chiefs from here, ...(?), Kitwanga.  Kispiox. All the  Chiefs from there went to Ottawa.  Q    Which Chief from Gitanmaaxs went to Ottawa?  A    It was Gyedimgaldo'o.  Q    What were they doing when they went to Ottawa?  A    They wanted to discuss their territory that was being  taken away from them.  Q    Do you remember when it was that Gyedimgaldo'o travelled  to Ottawa with the other Gitksan Chiefs?  THE INTERPRETER:  She can't remember the year at all.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Do you remember what the English name was of the  Gyedimgaldo'o that went to Ottawa?  A    James White.  At this time James White was not  Gyedimgaldo'o because Gyedimgaldo'o at that time was a  authority, who was next in line. Gyedimgaldo'o  lived in  that house we identified.  Q    The longhouse identified in the photograph?  A    That was old Gyedimgaldo'o.  Q    What was the name of the old Gyedimgaldo'o at that time?  THE INTERPRETER:  No, she doesn't know.  THE WITNESS: At that time we just used Gitksan names.  MR.  RUSH:  I see.  Q    That Gyedimgaldo'o, did he authorize James White to go  on his behalf?  A    Yes.     OFF THE RECORD  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Was James White the successor to the Gyedimgaldo'o name?  THE INTERPRETER:  Your question was "Was James White the  successor"?  MR. RUSH: Did James White take the name 35  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  THE INTERPRETER:  No, there was another person, Alexander  Mowatt became Gyedimgaldo'o and then James White after  that.  MR. RUSH:  I see. We'll just pause here for a change in the  tape.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. RUSH:  We'll adjourn for the day.   EXAMINATION ADJOURNED AT 2.50 p.m.  UNTIL 10.00 a.m.  tomorrow.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  Veronica Harper (Ms)  Official Court Reporter  VH/lre-Dec.  28/85 B.C.S.R.A. #263 36  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  VIOLET SMITH,  Gitksan Interpreter,  Previously Sworn  JESSIE STERRITT  Witness called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs, Previously Sworn,  testifies, as follows:    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION   UPON COMMENCING AT 10.15 a.m.  11 DECEMBER,  1985  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   The first question I would like to ask you this morning  is again about Daniel Skawil, and I wanted to ask you if  Daniel Skawil was related to you?  A   Yes, he must be related to me because he passed on the  information about the territory to me.  Q   That is what I wanted to ask you, Jessie.  When did  Daniel Skawil pass that information to you, do you  remember?  A   As far as I can remember when he thought I was old  enough to know about the information he just continually  talked about it to me.  THE INTERPRETER:  And whenever her auntie had to go somewhere  she would stay with Daniel Skawil.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Daniel Skawil was born in the 1800's, wasn't he?  A   I can't say.  Q   Can you say about when it was when Daniel Skawil died?  A   I think it was in the thirties but I do have letters  with dates that his foster children wrote when they  wrote to me but they are -- the letters are in Terrace.  Q   This would be the 1930's, would it?  A   Not too sure just when, late thirties....  THE INTERPRETER:  She's just not sure.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   At the time that Daniel Skawil died did he pass his name  on to someone?  A   No, the name wasn't passed on to anybody all these  years.  It was just at a feast that I had lately that  we've given them to people of the House.  Q   I would like to ask you about Nikat' een? 37  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A   Okay.  Q   Is Nikat'een from Gitanmaaxs?  THE INTERPRETER:  As far as she knows that he is where he is  from.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   What p'tekt is Nikat'een from?  A   Lax Seel.  Frog.  Q   What wilp is Nikat'een from?  A   The House of Nikat'een.  Q   Is the House of 'Wiigoob'l close to the House of  Nikat'een?  A   I don't even remember if he had House here.  THE INTERPRETER:  She's referring to the longhouses.  MR. RUSH:  Okay.  THE INTERPRETER:  She really does not know how to answer that  question.  MR. RUSH: Perhaps I can ask it a different way.  Q   At the feast hall when the Wolf p'tekt held a feast in  Gitanmaaxs where did Nikat'een sit?  A   Nikat' een sit sits on my left.  Q   On the left side of 'Wiigoob'l?  A   Yes.'Wiigoob'l.  Who sits on the right side of 'Wiigoob'l?  A   Ts'ogoshle.  Q   Perhaps I can just pause here and ask you the seating at  the feast hall in Gitanmaaxs and the question I would  like to ask you, when there is a feast at Gitanmaaxs  hosted by the Wolf Clan can you tell me where the people  sit at the feast?  Now, you have told me that Nikat' een sits to the  left of yourself?  A   Yes.  Q   Who sits to the left of Nikat' een?  A   A'yawasxw sits on the left of Nikat'een.  Q   Who sits to the left of A'yawasxw?  A   Because our people sometimes where you're at right now  is a little bit....  THE INTERPRETER:  At our feast she really can't say who sits  there.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Again, who sits on the right of 'Wiigoob'l at the  feast?  Can you tell me who sits to the right along that  side of the feast table?  A   Gyedimgaldo'o sits on the right of Ts'ogoshle.  Q   Ts'ogoshle? 38  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  THE  MR.  THE  right would be Gyedimgaldo'o?  right?  Walter Wilson.  To Walter Wilson's  Yes.  Who Would be to Gyedimgaldo'o's  Axtits'eix, Bruce Johnson.  the right of Bruce Johnson?  His English name is Joshua Campbell and  of his Gitksan name right now.  We can    Who sits to  INTERPRETER:  can't think  RUSH: Okay.  she  WITNESS: Xwtsimxwts'iin  is the name.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  THE  MR.  THE  Xwtsimxwts'iin is Joshua Campbell's Gitksan name?  Yes.  All right.  Is there any person that sits to the right  of Joshua Campbell at the feast hall?  Lutkutsiiwus, Ben McKenzie.  Thank you for giving us that. Let me just go back for a  moment to what you told us yesterday conncerning  the  names that you took as a child. I wanted to ask you if  when you were given the name, I think you said  Ksiiguuxt, was there a feast when you were given that  name?  INTERPRETER:  RUSH:   That  INTERPRETER:  The child name?  is the child name.  She was very small,  she doesn't remember but  there has to be a feast when we receive a name.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    That is the normal practice,  is it?  THE INTERPRETER:   That is the normal practice,  yes  law?  That is one of our rules, yes.  would you say the name again you  want to be sure I have it  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Is that the  THE INTERPRETER:  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Can you just tell me - -  were given as a child, :  right? Ksiiguuxt?  A    Ksiiguuxt.  Q    Now, yesterday you told  Axti'am, which was your  A    Yes, that was my first adult  Q    And the adult name is called  A    Yes, that's right.  Q    Do you remember how old you were when you  us that you received the name of  first adult name,  is that right?  name.  in Gitksan wamgyet?  received your 39  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  first wamgyet?  THE INTERPRETER:  She thought she mentioned it yesterday.  THE WITNESS:  It was when Ernest Wade died that I got the  name.  MR. PLANT:  She did mention it yesterday.  MR. RUSH:  That' s good.  Q    What is the English meaning of Axti'am?  A    Not good.  THE INTERPRETER:  That is the best I can come up with.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Yesterday the other wamgyet is A'yawasxw -- I'm  mispronouncing it    A    A'yawasxw.  Q     can you tell us what the English meaning of that  name is please?  A    Not hiding anything.  Not hiding anything.  Q    Now, I wanted to ask you if there was -- is there a mask  that goes with your name?  A    There were many things like a mask that belonged to our  House and, as I told you the other day, they were sold  by a person....  THE INTERPRETER:  She doesn't know about the mask going with  her name.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Can you tell us how the many things that you described  were sold? Can you tell us who did that?  A    When Gyedimgaldo'o who was Tommy Muldoos'(?)  father died  all the regalia that went with the name were taken by  Charlie Oop, who was a member of his House, and when he  died his son, Sam Oop, had them and sold them.  Q    Who did he sell them to?  A    He sold them to a man, Mr. Gow, who was the CN station  agent at South Hazelton.  Q    Do you remember how old you were when that happened?  THE INTERPRETER:  She can't remember the exact time but either  the late twenties or early thirties.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Can you tell me when the artifacts were sold to Mr. Gow  were the members of your Wilp upset about this?  A    They were very upset about it.  Q    Are there any of the regalia of the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o that are still -- that weren't sold to Mr.  Gow and are still in Gitanmaaxs?  A    There's only the button blanket, the amhalayt, and 40  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  they're presently in the museum down at Gitksan, and  there's a rattle that belongs to him that is in the  possession of another person.  Q   I am going to come back and ask you about that a little  later but I want to show you some photographs, but I  would like to ask you now about something that is a  little different and that is whether or not you have  ever been present and see Naxnox performed in regalia?  A   I remember when James Robinson had a feast we call  Galuuhlim and Naxnox peformed.  Q   You were present at this feast, can you tell us what  happened at the feast?  A   I was an observer and it happened up at the hall that  was up on the hill here before it burnt down.  Q   Yes?  A   I cannot say what year it was.  THE INTERPRETER:  As an observer at the halayt, danced in  front of all the guests.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Was he wearing anything special?  A   Yes, his regalia.  Q   What did he do? What did the halayt do?  A   No, from what I could see he just danced around in front  of the people.  Q   Was this when -- was James Robinson becoming a halayt at  this feast?  A   The feast Galuuhlim is when you elevate yourself, your  name.  Q   Yes?  A   That was what the feast was about, he was elevating his  name.  Q   Yes. Now, before the feast started was James Robertson  required to do anything and did he do anything before  the feast?  A   Galuuhlim is too when a person is ready for more  authority.  Q   Yes?  A   And more power.  MR. PLANT: You have said Robertson and Robinson.  THE WITNESS: Robinson.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   The name was James Robinson?  A   Right.  Q   Before the feast did James Robinson go away for a while?  Did he do anything particular before the feast began? 41  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A    Yes, he went out into the woods. It is a requirement in  our culture before you become halayt.  He went out and  spent days fasting, did all the rituals that go with  whatever he had to do, and then when he came back  there's a Gitksan term, when he comes back they use  pii'an.  THE INTERPRETER:  I don't really know how to say this in  English.  It would seem that they didn't know when he  was coming back, he only came back when he was ready.  Oh, she says there are a definite number of days  that they have to spend out in the woods and the village  is aware when he will be back and this is the term they  use on the day that he comes back.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    When he comes back what happens?  A    The village is ready with the feast and that is when he  performs his role as halayt.  Q    When he performs his role as halayt does he obtain  anything at the feast?  Anything special at the feast?  THE INTERPRETER:  In what way?  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Does he wear any regalia or anything that he wears  around his body?  THE INTERPRETER: From what she observed he came in with a  bear skin as a robe and he had wreaths around his neck.  When it was put on she can't say.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Do you remember how many wreaths he had around his neck?  THE INTERPRETER: She cannot remember the exact number but  knows that he had some around his neck.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    The feast that was held was that a big feast that was  held?  A    Yes.  Q    If a person choses to become halayt is there any  particular age at which the person becomes a halayt?  A    They could be quite young when they....     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: About adult, when they become adults they could  be halayts. 42  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    NOW, at the feast where James Robinson was halayt, was  there Naxnox performed?     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: He was Naxnox, that was part of his ritual.  The Naxnox term is when they blew through this wind  instrument that makes something like that, a whistle.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    And James Robinson did that at this feast?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, I want to ask you if you were at any other feast at  which Naxnox was performed in regalia and was performed  by Gyedimgaldo'o, and if you remember the feast being  called -- the Naxnox being performed as white grouse or  ptarmigan?  A    Yes, I saw Gyedimgaldo'o when he performed Naxnox white  grouse.  Q    What is the Gitksan name for the Naxnox white grouse  that was performed?  A    Ksemwa'a'in.  Q    Can you tell us what happened at this feast?  What you  saw happen?  A    He had at this particular time. . . .     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  He had on a white robe of some kind and his --  THE INTERPRETER:  -- I'll call it head dress --it is  different from the amhalayt.  THE WITNESS: With the white grouse on top of his head and  it was made in such a way that when he pulled the string  the white grouse whistled or made a noise.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  He also carried a stick or cane that they called  Ts'imdul, and that is the stick that they used to clear     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN 43  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  THE WITNESS:  That is Gyedimgaldo'o's Naxnox, the cane,  the  stick.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    What was the sound that was made when the string was  pulled by Gyedimgaldo'o'?  A    It was the sound that the ptarmigan makes, the white  grouse.  Q    Do you remember who was the Gyedimgaldo' o that performed  this Naxnox?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  It was Tommy Muldoos'  father, he did not perform,  he did not wear the regalia, it was a young man that  they selected.  He was quite old at the time so they  selected a young man to perform for him. I was very  small when I observed this.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Now, I have asked you some questions about the feast and  my understanding that today at the feast hall a table is  used where the simooget or the Chiefs sit; can you tell  usow did the Chiefs sit before they used a table in  the old days?  A    Long before the time they used tables they just sat  around the hall or the House, and they sat in the  formation that I related to you previously.  I was only  -- I can only name my own House, I cannot speak for  other Houses.  Q    In the case of Gyedimgaldo' o in the old days I think you  said that another person would sit in front of  Gyedimgaldo'o, am I correct about that?  A    The person who sits in front of the Chief is usually a  nephew or a person that they deem to be a responsible  successor  THE INTERPRETER:  -- that's not the word I want to use --  possible successor --  THE WITNESS:  -- when the Chief dies everybody knows that the  nephew is going to become the Chief.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Now, do you remember when there were no tables that were  used who sat in front of Gyedimgaldo'o?  Do you recall  that?  A    Well, at the time, before the time of tables, I don't  remember. 44  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q    Now, do you remember where Skawil sat at the feast?  When the feast was in Gitanmaaxs....  THE  INTERPRETER:   Before?  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    ....before tables, yes?  A    He said in the front.  There's usually two or three  rows.  THE INTERPRETER:   She was not quite sure which, whether it was  second or third row that he sat in.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    When you say "in front", you mean in front of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Not in the seat in front of him but in that row.  Q    In the row in front of him?  A    Yes.  MR.  RUSH:   I see.  Q    Now, does Nikat' een sit to 'Wiigoob'l's  left at the  feast hall today?  A    Yes.  That is as far back as I can remember, he has  always been there.  Q    Was there a successor  or possible successor to  Nikat' een' s name that sat in front of Nikat' een?  A    Yes, that is our law, that is where they sit.  Q    When the tables were introduced  and have been used at  the feast hall can you think of any problem that came  about when the people went there how the feast seating  was done in the old days to the present when tables were  used?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:   Yes, it created problems when we started using  the tables. There was a possibility that a seat could  be squeezed out --  THE INTERPRETER:   -- which is what happened in her case.  The  case of her people.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Can you tell us what happened in the case of your people  and what you did about it?  A    At one of the feasts we had I stood up and discussed the  matter that when a person receives a name there is a  seat for that person and that it should not be squeezed  out.  Q    So was some name squeezed out that you were trying to 45  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  correct when you did that?  A    A'yawasxw.  Q    Were you able to correct the seating at the House by  what you said?  A    Yes, it was corrected.  THE INTERPRETER:   Even when she' s not there that seat remains  empty but it is there for her.  BY MR RUSH:  Q    Can you tell us how it comes about that a seat could get  squeezed out like you have indicated?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  It could happen when the person -- usually at a  feast there is an official person that seats the people,  usually this person is very knowledgeable about names  and knows where they sit.  Occasionally there is a  person with -- not quite so knowledgeable about names  and seats and she could put a wrong person in there, and  that's what happened in this case.  MR. RUSH:  Maybe it's time to have a short break.  Thank you.    SHORT RECESS  MR. RUSH: Maybe we can start again? We'll recommence this  Commission now.  Q I would like to turn to another area of your evidence  and in particular the ada'ox, and I would like to ask  you if there is ada'ox for the Wilp of 'Wiigoob'l?  A    It would be the same as ada'ox Gyedimgaldo'o.  MR. PLANT:  May I have an approximate translation of ada'ox?  MR. RUSH:  History.  Q    Now, can you tell us, do you know the ada'ox for  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    I know the history of the territory,  fishing sites and  berry grounds,  the trapping.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  Hunting.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   The ada'ox for Gyedimgaldo'o,  is that recorded some  place that you know about?  A   I can't think right now if it has been taped or written 46  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  down anywhere.  Q   Is some of the ada'ox on the totem pole for  Gyedimgaldo'o?   Does it appear on the totem pole?  A   Yes, it's on the pole but I really can't give you the  reading of it or whatever you call it.  I know about the  three figures that are on, I can talk about that, the  frog and the half man.  Q   Let me ask you about those.  Are the ayuks or the crests  on the Gyedimgaldo'o pole?  A   Yes, those are the crests of Gyedimgaldo'o that are on  the pole.  Q   Can you tell us about those three ayuks?  A   I can only tell you about the names of the crests.  Xbigiloon is three figures.  Q   Yes?  A   Sto'ogyet is the half man.  Q   Yes?  A   And the frog that are on there.  MR. RUSH:  Okay.  THE INTERPRETER:  The rest that are on there, she's not too  sure about them.  MR. RUSH:  Okay.  THE INTERPRETER:  There is another crest there that she  remembers somebody telling about the big fly.  THE WITNESS:   (In English) Mosquito.  The story goes that it was a woman who turned into  a mosquito and she killed children. The legend goes  that wherever they would go somewhere this old woman  would be with the group and when they would camp and go  to sleep the legend goes that she would suck the blood  out of the children and they would die.  Eventually  people realized that there was something peculiar going  on.  They gathered wood and they were going to make a  big fire and they intended to burn this woman. They  burnt her and before that lady burned she told them that  even her spirit would forever pester them.  That's the  mosquito today.  End of the legend.  MR. PLANT:  I'll tell my wife that the next time I go on a  camping trip!  BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Do you know who told you this story?  A   The elders in my House.  Q   Is the House of 'Wiigoob'l or the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    'Wiigoob'1 and Gyedimgaldo'o.  Q   Now, just to come back to the pole, the pole that you're 47  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  talking about, where is that standing now?  A    It is presently beside the -- what is called the library  now that was previously the museum, that is why we  consented to put the pole there.  Q    Does this pole still belong to the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, was this pole carved during your lifetime?  A    No, it was done before I was born.  Q    Are you aware of who carved the pole?  A    I was told it was a person from the Nass River.  Q    Who was that person?  A    Niiyesmuut.  Q    Who was Niiyesmuut married to?  A    Niiyesmuut was married to Noxs Ganii, one of my aunts.  Q    Was Niiyesmuut hired to carve the pole by the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    Yes, he was hired because it was considered one of the  experts at that time.  Q    Do you know what Clan or p'tekt Niiyesmuut was from in  the Nass?  A    Lax Gibuu, Wolf Clan.  Q    Are they related to the Wolf Clan of the Gitksan people?  A    Like any other culture it is through marriage that they  become related.  Q    It was the relationship through Noxs Ganii that there  was the relationship?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, do you know of any other poles of the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A    My memory goes back that this is the second pole.  The  other one had deteriorated and had fallen over and they  made this one that is presently at the library.  Q    I want to show you a photograph of a pole and ask you if  this is the one that had fallen over?  Do we have a copy of a copy of the original?  MR. PLANT:  I take it you don't have the negatives?  MR. RUSH:  I don't think so. No.  These photographs are from  the National Museum. Is this the only photograph that  we have or is there a copy of this one?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. PLANT:  Were they part of Barbeau's Reserve, do you know?  MR. RUSH:  I am not sure but I can find out for you.  Q    Let me show you a photograph of the pole that was laying  on the ground, and I just want to ask you if this is the 48  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  pole that you saw?  A   Yes, this is the pole that I saw when it was in this  state.  MR. PLANT: Excuse me, is that all that she said about that?  THE INTERPRETER:  She was talking about the three figures we  are talking about.  She was pointing them out.  MR. PLANT: Let's hear that too.  MR. RUSH: Just say everything she said.  THE WITNESS:  The three figures on the top there, the ones I  referred to as Xbigiloon.  I was told that there was a  raven on top of that, and it doesn't show there.  BY MR RUSH:  Q   Would you just turn the photograph towards me, that's  right, so the camera can see it and the three figures  that you were referring to are at the top of the pole  lying down,  is that correct?  Would you translate that?  A   The three figures that are on this pole are on the pole  that is standing in front of the library too.  Q   Did you see the pole like this?  Is that what the pole  looked like as it's shown in that photograph?  A   Yes, this is when I saw it and it was sick, damaged  quite badly.  Q   And it looked like it shows in the photograph?  A   Yes.  Q   Is the pole, the former pole of the House of  Gyedimgaldo'o?  A   Yes, this is the first pole that I remember.  MR. RUSH: May I take that back from you?  Thank you.  What I want to do is, I would like to preserve the  original copy and I have given you a photocopy, we have  an additional copy of Exhibit No. 1 and what we can try  to do is get an additional copy of this one but, at the  moment, what I would like to do, if we can agree on  this, is just mark the photocopy of the photograph so  that we have -- I would like to have the original that  we retain, if that is agreeable to you? We can mark the  next positive once we've prepared it.  MR. PLANT: I am not sure I understand the reason why you  don't want to mark the original?  MR. RUSH: Just that I don't want the original made an Exhibit  unless -- I want a copy for ourselves which at the  moment we don't have.  I will replace it with another  copy of this but in the meantime what I would like to be  able to do is simply mark the photocopy if we can agree  on that on the understanding, of course, that there will 49  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  be another positive produced.  MR. PLANT:  Well, you're going to be able to keep the original  photograph until trial.  MR.  RUSH:   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  What's the logistical problem?  MR. RUSH:  I don't want this photograph entered as an Exhibit.  I want a copy of this one, if we can agree, it is the  same one.  MR. PLANT:  All right.  I don't have any problem with this  photocopy being an accurate photocopy but my concern is  since we are on Commission here that the thing that we  mark as an Exhibit is subject to any objections  later  going to be an Exhibit at trial, and for the benefit of  the Trial Judge I would just as soon that he have the  best version of the photograph  available to him.  MR. RUSH:  We agree to produce that to him by getting another  copy of this one.  MR.  PLANT:  Yes.  MR. RUSH: But we find it difficult enough to get these from  the National Museum. We would have to have one in our  own records.  MR.  PLANT:  All right.  MR. RUSH:  So if we can mark the photocopy as Exhibit two on  the understanding that we will produce another positive  of Exhibit two and that positive will become the  Exhibit.  MR. PLANT:  Sure.  Providing that the Witness identifies the  similarity between the photograph and the photocopy.  MR. RUSH:  Sure .  MR. PLANT:  I don't have any problem with that.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Jessie,  I just want to ask you. . . .  THE INTERPRETER:  You want to compare it?  MR.  RUSH:   Yes.  Q    When you look at the photograph here and the photocopy  are they one and the same? Does the photocopy  show the  same as the photograph?  A    Yes, they are the same.  MR.  RUSH:   That's fine.   This is just technical legal stuff  that we have to do.  Let's mark the photocopy as Exhibit  No. 2,  that is a photocopy of the photograph from the  National Museum of Canada, negative number 70371. 50  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush   EXHIBIT NO. 2 - Photocopy of photograph from the  National Museum of Canada, negative  number 70371.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    Just to carry on now, did the present pole that is  standing by the library replace the pole that you saw  lying down on the ground that you have identified?  A    That's what I was told.  Q    Now, I am going to show you a photograph now of a  diagram and I wonder if you can identify this photograph  of a diagram?  Do you know what that is?  A    The openings on top of the roof are where the smoke come  out. This is Gyedimgaldo' o' s House, the one in the  middle. The House of Guuhadakxw is on the left side  looking at it. The House at the very left end is the  House of 'Wiigoob'l.  Q    Have you ever seen this diagram before, Jessie?  A    No, this is the first time I have seen it.     OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS: I can identify the buildings on top of the hill  and the building at the bottom, but the buildings on the  right side I don't -- I can't identify them.  Q    Do you know what is happening in the diagram?  What is  the diagram showing us?  A    I would say that they're raising Gyedimgaldo'o's  pole.  Q    Okay.  A    It seems to be, it looks like it will be standing in  front of Gyedimgaldo'o's  House.  MR. RUSH:  I would like to put this in as an Exhibit,  I don't  know what your feeling of this is?  MR. PLANT: You and I had a discussion yesterday along the  lines because this is Commission without a Commissioner  that generally speaking we would reserve objections  until later.  MR.  RUSH:  Okay.  MR. PLANT: So I don't object to the marking of this diagram  on that basis.  MR. RUSH: Yes.  All right.  Q    Would you just turn the photograph toward me and can you  tell me again where the Wilp of Gyedimgaldo'o' is?  A    The second.  Q    It is the second House from the right.  Whose Wilp is  that beside Gyedimgaldo'o'?  A    (In English) On the left is Guuhadakxw. 51  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q    Who is on the right?  A    That is 'Wiigoob'l's house, the far end.  Q    You have pointed to the far left of the photograph.   On  the right side of the Wilp of Gyedimgaldo'o',  whose  House is that?  A    The one, the little house, the smaller house is Ts'ayee.  They belong to Gyedimgaldo'o'.  Q    I am going to show you this photocopy of the photograph  of the diagram,  if you will look at the photograph and  the photocopy, do they appear to be the same?  A    The pictures are identical. There's just one building  that I can't identify, that is the second one from the  left.  MR. RUSH:  Which is the one she can't identify, could you  just point out? Oh, I see, you're saying the second one  from the left side of the photograph.  Q    'Wiigoob'l'  is on the left?  A    Yes.  Q    And the one beside it you can't identify?  A    'Wiigoob'l's  house, yes.  MR. RUSH:  If I may take those from you, I am going to ask  that the photocopy  be marked as Exhibit No. 03.    EXHIBIT NO. 3 - Photocopy of photograph  of diagram  depicting the raising of Gyedimgaldo'o's  pole.  BY MR. RUSH:  going to show you another    Before we do that can you identify the source of  diagram, Mr. Rush?  We can but I can't do it for you right now.  All right.  I'll undertake to do that for you.  me move now to another photograph, and I am going to  ask you do you recognize what is on this photograph?  A    This is the pole that is now presently in front --  beside the library.  A replacement for the pole that was  laying down in the photograph.  Q    This is Gyedimgaldo' o' s  pole?  A    Yes, that's Gyedimgaldo'o's  tree or totem.  Q    Did you see the pole when it was standing at that spot?  THE INTERPRETER:   Can you re-phrase your question again?  MR. PLANT:  Let's have a translation of what she did say.  MR. RUSH:  Just translate what she said?  THE WITNESS:  This is Gyedimgaldo'o's pole that I remember  as  the old, and this is the pole that we moved down to the  Q  I am c  MR.  PLANT:  this c  MR.  RUSH:  MR.  PLANT:  MR.  RUSH:  Q  Let m« 52  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  library. Mrs. Sargent asked me because the ground was  beginning to cave in close to the river, they wanted to  preserve and there were other poles moved up to Totem  Park and I did not want our pole up there,  I wanted it  closer in the area so I gave them permission to move it  to the front of the museum and I did not give it to  them, it is still ours.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  THE WITNESS:  And I did not sell it to them.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  Q    You may have answered my question in answering it when  you have, but when you were a little girl or when you  were younger did you see the pole as located in -- as  shown in that photograph there?  A    I remember seeing it.  Q    As shown in the photograph,  is that what it looked like?  A    Yes.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you very much.  I would like to have that  marked as an Exhibit, and this can be the Exhibit in the  proceedings without a photocopy.    EXHIBIT NO. 4 - Photograph of totem pole presently  beside the library.  THE INTERPRETER:   She made another comment, would you like me  to   MR. RUSH:  Yes, would you please?  THE INTERPRETER:  There is a plaque on that pole today telling  the line of the different Gyedimgaldo' o' s that she  remembers.  MR. RUSH:  That plaque is at the present location of the pole?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR.  RUSH:  Q    I have one more photograph that I would like to show you  and I wonder if you can just identify the pole again?  A    It is the same pole.  Q    Is that the way the pole looked when you were younger at  that place?  A    Yes.  Q    Whose Wilp is that in the background?  Whose longhouse  is that in the background?  A    The House of Gyedimgaldo'o'.  Q    It appears as though the pole is standing directly in  front of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o', is that the way it  stood as you remember it?  A    Yes. 53  STERRITT, J.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q    DO you know that handsome man in the photograph?  A    It looks like my cousin Peter Morrison but I can't say  for sure.  Q    May I have the photograph?  I just would like to ask you  to take the photocopy of the photograph and is the  photocopy a true copy of the photograph that you have?  A    It is one and the same.  MR. RUSH:  If I can take those from you?  Thank you very much.  I am going to ask that the photocopy be marked as the  next Exhibit and I can tell you that the photograph that  was identified is from the National Museum of Canada  under negative number 49918.   EXHIBIT NO. 5 - Photocopy of photograph from the  National Museum of Canada, negative  number 49918.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. RUSH:  I have many more questions that I am going to ask  you about the pole but we've just come around to twelve  o'clock and it might be an appropriate time to adjourn  the Commission now and we'll pick up the Commission next  time we get together and finish off your evidence.   ADJOURNED AT 12 NOON, 11 DECEMBER, 1985.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  Veronica Harper (Ms)  Official Court Reporter  VH/lre-Jan. 4/86 B.C.S.R.A.  #263

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