Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Johnny David Vol. 6] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 24, 1986

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 TRIAL EXHIBIT 74F - 24 & 25 February, 1986  Extracts from COMMISSION EVIDENCE of JOHN DAVID, Volume VI 6-2  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  VICTOR WILLIAM JIM,  Wet'suwet'en Interpreter,  Previously Sworn.  JOHN DAVID, a Witness called  on behalf of the Plaintiffs,  previously sworn, testifies  as follows:    UPON COMMENCING AT 10:30 a.m., 24 February, 1986  MR. MILNE: For the record, this is the start of the Cross-  Examination of Mr. David. Direct Examination has taken  place over the last four-five months starting in September  1985. Mr. David has been sworn throughout as has the  Interpreter. Would you explain that to him please?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  MR. MILNE: He understands that he is still under oath?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MILNE:  Q Mr. David, I act on behalf of a lawyer called Mr. Goldie,  he's the lawyer for th Province and he's asked me to come  here on his behalf and ask you some questions.  A   Yes.  Q   When I ask you questions during the Cross-Examination I'm  going to refer to "you" and when I say "you" I mean you  personally, and when I say "your people" or in some other  context I mean the Wet' suwet' en people . When I ask you  questions would you confine your answers to whether or  not you're talking personally or whether you're talking  on behalf of the Wet'suwet'en.  What I want to do then, when you give your answer,  if you have not personally seen what you're giving your  evidence about, I would like you to tell me you have not  personally seen it but somebody else may perhaps have told  you about it. Is that all right?  A   Yes.  THE INTERPRETER: He said, if we don't know about it we don't  tell about it.  BY MR. MILNE:  What I am concerned about, that you know about it personally and that you have seen these things and if you  have not seen them, it's fine to say that somebody else 6-3  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  told you but I want to know when that circumstance arises;  do you understand that?  A   Yes.  Q Now you have had many days of being asked questions by  Mr. Grant, and I will try to be short so we can finish  this up altogether.  A   Yes.  If you get tired, let me know and we'll stop?  THE INTERPRETER: He said that whatever he's been telling us  he would like to have it written down properly and the  way he tells it it's the way it happened.  MR. MILNE:  I understand that, Mr. David.  For the record the people present are, of course,  our able Reporter, Veronica Harper; the phoneticist, Tonia  Mills; the video operator, Mike McDonald, and the  Interpreter, Victor Jim.  Mr. Grant, for the record, I previously during the  Direct Examination reserved rights to objections on various  points and that, of course, was because there was no  Commissioner present and to avoid interruptions during  the Direct Examination. Those interruptions would have  been normally for a ruling on the objection or on other  evidentiary considerations. I just want to again repeat  that I reserve the right to object at trial and I assume  you make the same reservation at this point in terms of  the Cross-Examination?  MR. GRANT: Yes, I'll be noting any objections to any questions  here and the answers can be given and they can be ruled  on at trial.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Mr. David, I just want to go over a few points with you  and see if I can tie a few things together. I am going  to probably cover some of the things that Mr. Grant asked  you about. Please bear with me, it's only because I want  to get them straight in my own mind. You were born in  1894?  A   Yes.  Q   And you were baptised in 1896?  THE INTERPRETER: He says he's got baptismal papers he wants  you to see.  MR. MILNE: All right.    OFF THE RECORD (WITNESS LEFT THE ROOM)  THE INTERPRETER: That's not the baptismal, that is certificate  of registration of Indian status. And has his birth date  on it. 6-4  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   The document that you have shown me has a picture on it  as well and says that you were March 8th, 1896?  THE INTERPRETER: He said that hasn't been done properly.  MR. MILNE: Did he say what    THE INTERPRETER: They've given the wrong year when he was born.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   What is the correct year that you were born?  I think what he is saying, he was baptised in 1896  but was born in 18 94, is that correct?  THE INTERPRETER: He's saying that some people who were born  later than, their birth    THE WITNESS:   the year they were born is the same as mine.  MR. MILNE: When was he born?  THE INTERPRETER: He is saying that tihs date is when he was  baptised.  MR. MILNE: And that date is 1896?  THE INTERPRETER:  18 96.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   When were you born?  THE INTERPRETER: He is saying this is the date that they have  given him but he can't remember the number exactly when  he was born.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q Do you remember how old you were when you were baptised  or has somebody told you how old you were when you were  baptised?  THE INTERPRETER: He said he's finding it difficult to remember  the exact date.  MR. MILNE: Was he a baby or a young boy?  THE INTERPRETER: He said he was about a year old.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Can you remember the date when the telegraph line was put  through this area?  MR. GRANT: Before he answers, there were two telegraph lines  put through, which one    MR. MILNE: Either one. I simply want to be able to relate  a time in history. Did this occur before or after the  telegraph line. I just want to be able to tie that to  a time.  MR. GRANT: Just for the record, there were two telegraph lines.  As I understand one was around -- the Collins overland,  which was around 1865 and the other one was sometime later. 'ñ†5  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  Clearly, from the evidence he has given and his appearance  I don't think he's 120 years old. I don't think you're  necessarily referring to that unless you're asking    MR. MILNE: I would be referring to the one that was later and  I just want to know if he knows when that occurred.  MR. GRANT: He's asking about the second telegraph -- you're  asking about the second telegraph line?  MR. MILNE: The second telegraph line put in.  THE INTERPRETER: He gave the answer as somewhere around 1901.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q    In your examination, Mr. David, you said the white man  came into this area around 1907; is that correct? Is  that what you said?  MR. GRANT: That's two questions.  MR. MILNE: I expect two answers.  THE INTERPRETER:  What was the first one?  MR. GRANT: One at a time.  MR. MILNE: Let me rephrase the question.  Q   When did the white man come to your knowledge to this area?  THE INTERPRETER: He said there were some white people and it  was prior to 1901 but there weren't too many of them.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   When did most of the whites start arriving?  A  After 1901 was when the white people started arriving when  gold was discovered at Manson Creek.  Q   Do you remember when the railway first came through?  A  About 1908. They came from the west as well as the east  and met somewhere.  Q   Was that about the same year that your father died?  A   Yes.  Q   You were married sometime around 1914?  A   Yes.  Q   You stated that you sold your land near Perow around 1926,  is that right?  A  Yes.  Q   You called that the hard times, is that right?  A  Yes, people had a difficult time after the war.  Q   Your mother died in 1936?  A   Yes.  Q   You remember World War II?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he remembers the war starting in August  1914.  MR. MILNE: 1940 did he say?  THE INTERPRETER:  1914. 6-6  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   You're talking of the First World War, do you remember  a war after that in 1940?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he remembers.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q    I just want to make sure that I have the names of your family  correct and their houses and clans. I will try and summarise  it and you tell me if I am right or wrong. Your mother's  English name was Marion Dennis and her Wet'suwet'en name  was Suwitsbaine?  THE INTERPRETER: His wife was Marion Dennis.  MR. MILNE:  I'm sorry.  Q   What was your mother's name?  A  Her name was Suwitsbaine.  Q   Did she have an English name?  A   She didn't have an English name. Her name was Mrs.  Roosevelt.  MR. GRANT: Sorry, her name was Mrs. Roosevelt?  THE INTERPRETER: Mrs. Roosevelt is her English name.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q She is from the House of Ginehklaiya and the Laksilyu clan?  A Yes.  Q Your father is Smogelgem, did he have an English name?  A He was Laksamshu. He was first of all called David and  after he was given the name Chief Roosevelt.  Q His house was the Owl House?  A Yes.  Q The Wet'suweten name for owl was?  A Misdzi ya.  Q   Your grandmother's name was Joenassbaine?  THE INTERPRETER: He is asking, his father's mother.  MR. MILNE: That was going to be my next question.  Q What was your father's mother's name?  A Basa.  Q Did she have an English name?  A No. Her husband was Big Chief.  Q   Was she alive when you were born?  A   Yes, he seen me born.  Q   Does he remember when she died?  A   No, I don't. I was quite small.  Q What was your mother's mother's name?  THE INTERPRETER: He said he can't remember.  BY MR. MILNE:  Was it Joenassbaine? 6-7  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  A   Yes, that's right.  Q   Was she alive when you were born?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you remember when Joenassbaine died?  A   It has been a long time ago and I can't remember the date.  Q   Do you remember if it was before or after the railroad?  A   It was way before the railroad came.  Q   Was it before or after the telegraph line in 1901?  A   Before.  MR. MILNE: She died then after his birth but some time before  the telegraph line, is that what he is saying?  Q    Is that what you're saying?  THE INTERPRETER: You want to repeat that again?  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Johnny, I understand that you said you were alive when your  mother's mother died, is that right?  A   That' s right. I was born right here.  Q   Your mother's mother died when you were a young boy, is  that right?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he was a baby.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Your grandfather was Old Sam?  A   That's my uncle. My mother's brother. Oldest brother.  Q   What was the name of your grandfather? In other words,  your father's father?  A   Gitdumskanees.  Q   Did he have an English name?  A   No, he didn't have an English name.  Q   Were you alive when he died?  A   No.  THE INTERPRETER: He said I was alive when he died.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Do you remember how old you were when he died?  A   My mother told me that I was walking when he died.  Q What is the name of your mother's father?  A He came from Hazelton and his name was Spookx.  Q   Did he have an English name?  A   Didn't have an English name.  Q   Were you alive when he died?  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: I think he's getting confused.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN 6-8  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't alive.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   You said that you were born at Moricetown and that you spent  a lot of time growing up in the area that you describe as  North Bulkley; when did you first come to the North Bulkley  area?  A   After I was born here in the spring, we went to North  Bulkley. That's where I grew up.  Q  What does the name Wet'suwet'en mean?  A   It's the name given to people from this area.  Q   Is it true that the people from this area used to be called  Gitksan-Carrier?  MR. GRANT: Which area are you referring to? Because I think  the question is misleading.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Did the Wet'suwet'en people used to be called Gitksan-  Carrier?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: He's getting confused with the names, and the  Gitneys are called Gitksan.  MR. MILNE: Has he ever heard the term "Gitksan-Carrier" before?  THE WITNESS: Can't recall.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q    In the document which has been filed in court by your  lawyer called an Amended Statement of Claimed filed in June  of 1985, there are people called plaintiffs and I want  to know how many of these people you know, and I want to  know their English name if you know it, and I want you to  tell me if you know where their territory is, if you know  it?  Maybe you can explain that to him so far and then  we'll go through each one.  Does he understand that?  THE INTERPRETER: He doesn't understand the word "plaintiffs".  MR. MILNE:  I'll go on anyways and I think he'll probably catch  on.  Q   The first one is -- and forgive my pronunciation --  Gisdaywa? Does he know who Gisdaywa is?  A  Yes. 6-9  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  Q Is he a hereditary chief?  A Yes.  Q   Who has that name now?  A   He' s a man from Hagwilget. His name is Alfred.  Q   His last name is Alfred?  A Alfred Joseph.  Q Does he know what clan Alfred Joseph is a member of?  A Gitdumden.  Q Is Alfred Joseph Wet'suwet'en?  A   Yes, he's Wet'suwet'en.  Q   Do you know how long Alfred Joseph has had that name?  A   It has been a long time. I think it is about ten years  He got his name at the hall here in Moricetown.  Q Do you know who Gitdumden was before Alfred Joseph?  MR. GRANT: For the record, you were referring to Gisdaywa.  MR. MILNE:  I'm sorry, Gisdaywa.  THE WITNESS: Thomas George.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Do you know Thomas George?  A   Yes, I know him.  Q   The next one I want to ask you questions about is number  seven on the Amended Statement of Claim, Goohlaht?  A   Yes, I know Goohlaht.  MR. GRANT:  I just want to note for the record that prior to  this continuation there has been extensive interrogatories  directed to each one of these persons including the questions  which you've asked relating to Gisdaywa. I assume you're  going to do that with the other plaintiffs, as you have  indicated --at least with the Wet'suwet'en ones, it  appears -- and I just want to point out for the record  that there is the interrogatories which are extensive and  deal with all of those questions on each of those plaintiffs.  MR. MILNE:  I haven't seen any interrogatories. If you have  a copy, perhaps if I took a moment and take a look it might  prevent a lot of duplication.  MR. GRANT: Go off the record for a second.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. MILNE: We can go back on the record now.  For the record, I have had an opportunity during the  break to take a look at Part 2 of some of interrogatories  given to me by Mr. GRant.  What I'm endeavouring to do here, Mr. Grant, is to  simply generally find out whether the witness knows the  other people set out in the Statement of Claim and who they 6-10  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  actually are. It's not my intention -- I don't want him  to go into detail as to the other hereditary chiefs particularly dealing with information which may already have  been requested in the interrogatories.  I might add this  is the first time I've seen these interrogatories.  MR. GRANT: Thus far you have been asking questions with respect  to the Wet'suwet'en chiefs and you're asking him to just  find out what he knows about that. I have no objection  to that.  I do take objection for the defence endeavouring to  elicit all this information from one witness when they're  actually double-tracking it with interrogatories, massive  interrogatories which have been directed to all of the  plaintiffs who have been knowledgable in all areas.  MR. MILNE: Your objection is noted and again I repeat that it's  my intention to see if he generally knows these plaintiffs  and where they are. The interrogatories were delivered  to the plaintiffs but I am just trying to determine the  extent of the witness' knowledge.  MR. GRANT: Just also for the record, the Writ of Summons has  on it English names of all of these persons, subject to  any changes that may have occurred between the time of  filing and now. I note you don't have it in front of you  but I presume you do have the Writ somewhere.  Again, if you are only asking to see if he knows them  I am not going to object to that.  MR. MILNE: Maybe we can go off the record for a moment, the  Witness has walked away    OFF THE RECORD  MR. MILNE: Back on the record. The Witness has now sat down  again.  MR. GRANT: He just stepped out into his bedroom for a couple  of moments.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   We were starting to discuss the hereditary chief Goohlaht  and I was asking the Witness whether or not he knew who  that person was. Do you know who that person is?  Mr. Interpreter, would you translate the name for me,  Paragraph 7 of the Statement of Claim.  A   Yes, I know him.  Q   Who holds that name now?  A   I can't remember who holds that name now.  Q  The next one is Paragraph 11 of the Amended Statement of 'ñ†11  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  Claim, and that name is Kweese; do you know who has that  name now?  A  That name is held by Gordon Hall's wife.  Q   Do you know her name? Her English name?  A  Before she got married her name was Beaulah Dennis.  Q   When did she get married, do you know?  A    No.  Q   Do you know her name now? Her English name?  THE INTERPRETER: He just knows her as Gordon's wife.  THE WITNESS: Gordon Hall.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q    Is this Hall that you're talking about related to this person  you sold your land to in Perow?  MR. GRANT:  Who?  MR. MILNE: Gordon Hall.  THE INTERPRETER: Would you repeat that please?  MR. MILNE: Maybe you should read that back?  THE REPORTER: Question:  "Is this Hall that you're talking  about related to this person you sold  your land to in Perow?"  Then it went on:  "Gordon Hall".  THE WITNESS: I don't know how you come to that conclusion.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   The next paragraph in the Amended Statement of Claim is  No. 41 and the hereditary chief set out there is    THE INTERPRETER: He said it was an English man named Tom Hall  BY MR. MILNE:  Q    I take it from your answer that Gordon Hall is not English?  A    No.  Q   In Paragraph 41 of the Statement of Claim is the name Woos;  do you know who has that name now and what their English  name may be?  A   Roy Morris has that name now.  Q   The next paragraph in the Statement of Claim is No. 43,  Samooh; who has the name Samooh now?  A  Samooh was held by my son, Moses David, who has died and  no-one has taken over the name yet.  Q   In Paragraph 44, the hereditary chief set out is Smogelgem;  is it true that Leonard George now has that name?  A  Yes, he has that name.  Q   Paragraph 45 in the Statement of Claim, the hereditary  chief is Kloumkhun; who holds that name now and what is  their English name?  A   Johnny Mack who is now in the hospital. 'ñ†12  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  Q   Is it true that Sylvester Williams has the name Hag Wil Negh  which is in Paragraph 46 of the Statement of Claim?  A  Yes.  Q  Your evidence is given on behalf of the House of Hag Wil  Negh, is that correct?  A  Yes.  Q   Paragraph 47 of the Statement of Claim sets out Wah Tah  Keght; who holds that name now?  A  Henry Alfred.  Q   In Paragraph 48 of the Statement of Claim it's Wah Tah  Kwets; who holds that name?  A   John Namox.  Q   Are there any other Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs other  than those ones that I have asked you?  MR. GRANT:  As plaintiffs?  MR. MILNE: Period. Any at all?  THE WITNESS: If you have their names down I can answer that  question. If you don't then I can give the wrong name.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q    I am not asking for names at this point, Mr. David. I am  just wondering if there are other hereditary chiefs?  MR. GRANT: For the record, I think in the evidence it has been  clear that threre are, if I may say, there are chiefs and  there are chiefs. I am not certain if you are trying to  elicit from this witness whether there are any chiefs who  are the head of a house or if you --it appears that there  are more than one chief in each house and I think that was  elicited on Direct. This may be confusing and I think you  should be clear as to what you're seeking or what you mean  by chiefs when you're asking ...  MR. MILNE:  I am asking about the term used in the Statement  of Claim which is, quote, hereditary chiefs and I am just  wondering if there are any hereditary chiefs other than  the ones listed in the Statement Claim.  MR. GRANT: For the Wet'suwet'en you're talking about?  MR. MILNE: For the Wet'suwet'en.  THE WITNESS: Yes, there are others and the example I'll give  is, I've already stated that Pat Namox is the heir to my  name.  BY MR. MILNE:  Are there hereditary chiefs who currently have names and  who are not heirs that are not mentioned in the Statement  of Claim?  There are others and the chief's name doesn't go to just  anyone. 6-13  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  Q   Are there other houses other than those listed in the  Statement of Claim for the Wet'suwet'en?  A   Yes. There's chiefs that have names, they all come from  a house.  Q   Are these hereditary chiefs?  A   yes. Some, their names are taken away if they don't live  up to that name.  Q    I understand that. Do you have any idea how many other  hereditary chiefs there might be other than those stated  in the Statement of Claim?  A   From each house there are usually three main chiefs, from  each of the clans. Also three main chiefs at the table  when the feast is on.  Q   So the number of houses is, what?  A  There were four potlatch houses.  Q   The number was four?  THE INTERPRETER:  Four.  MR. MILNE: Well, I'm getting quite confused about this whole  issue of who the plaintiffs are and who else might be out  there that is not a plaintiff but are still in the same  position as the plaintiffs, namely they are hereditary  chiefs of certain houses.  MR. GRANT: Before you go on -- could you translate that to  Wet'suwet'en?  THE INTERPRETER: He was just talking about just three main  chiefs from each clan who get up to speak on behalf of  all the chiefs from their clans.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Do you know if some of these people in the Statement of  Claim which we've just gone through are those three main  chiefs?  A  Yes, they are. Yes, the names we just went over are some  of the leading chiefs of those clans.  Q   Do you know if they are all of the leading chiefs of those  clans?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT: For the record, before you go further, you did not  refer to Knedebeas which is in paragraph ....  MR. MILNE:  Oh, 42.  MR. GRANT:  .... 42.  MR. MILNE: You're quite right.  MR. GRANT:  I think it is only fair if you are starting to refer  to these chiefs in general terms you also give him that  name so that he knows that is one of the ones listed. 6-14  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Paragraph 42 of the Amended Statement of Claim sets out the  hereditary chief in the House of Knedebeas; do you know  who that person is and what their English name may be?  A  The name Knedebeas is held by a lady from Prince George.  Q   Do you know what her name is?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  Sarah.  THE INTERPRETER: He has given the last name Tommy.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Is she Wet'suwet'en?  A   Yes, Sarah is Wet'suwet'en.  Q   Do any of these hereditary chiefs that we have dealt with  share the title with anyone, share their name with anyone?  THE INTERPRETER: You mean the Indian name?  MR. MILNE: The Indian name.  THE WITNESS:  No.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Do you know the names of the Gitksan hereditary chiefs?  I'm not asking you to give them, all I want to know if  you know them?  A   I know the older hereditary chiefs from before but I don't  know who's taken their names now.  Q   For the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs which we've gone  through in the Statement of Claim, without saying where  it is, does he know where their territories are?  A  Yes, I do.  Q   In relation to the Kilwoneetzen territory, is the territory  of Wah Tah Kwets, being 48 in the Statement of Claim,  close by? By that I mean is it either right next to it  or within a day's walk of it?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Yes, it is close by.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q    Is it within one day's walk?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: It is about two hours by car you could get there.  MR. GRANT: Just for my own clarification were you referring 'ñ†15  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  To Wah Tah Keght or Wah Tah Kwets?  MR. MILNE: Wah Tah Kwets, Paragraph 48.  THE INTERPRETER: He mentioned Wah Tah Kwets territory is near  the McDonnell Lake area.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   When you went to your territories in the old days, did  you go on foot or by some other means?  A  We went on foot. With our packs, and went over the Dowdy  Mountain and took about two or three days to get there.  Q   Does he know who had the territory -- the Wet'suwet'en  hereditary chief who had the territory the furthest from  his territory?  MR. GRANT:  In which direction?  MR. MILNE:  In any direction. Who had the most remote territory  from his?  MR. GRANT  MR. MILNE  MR. GRANT  MR. MILNE  From Where? McDonnell Lake?  From the Kilwoneetzen territory.  The Kilwoneetzen territory is some distance itself  From Six Mile Flats.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: From Six Mile Flats John Namox hold territory  and from there it was the people from Skeena Crossing.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   The people from Skeena Crossing are Kitsegukla?  A   Yes.  Q   Have you travelled to the territories of other hereditary  chiefs besides Smogelgem and Hag Will Negh?  MR. GRANT: The Wet'suwet'en?  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   The Wet'suwet'en again?  A  Yes, I travelled to many of the territories. We're all  from the same clan and we do not cause trouble with each  other.  Q   Did you often go to the other territories and, if you did,  what where you going there for?  A  We travelled the other territories with the permission  of the chiefs who own the territory so we could hunt for  game to eat.  Q   When you're saying "we" you mean the Wet'suwet'en people?  A   Yes.  Q   How often would the Wet'suwet'en or yourself personally  have travelled to other territories? 6-16  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  A  Usually for one or two months and when the white man came  they would chase us off with sticks.  If you went on their  land without their permission.  Q    Is it true that you travelled all the time through the  territories of the other chiefs?  A   Yes.  Q    Is it true that for most of the time during a particular  year you would hbe travelling through those territories?  MR. GRANT: Are you talking about all the seasons of the year?  MR. MILNE:  Yes.  THE WITNESS: Yes, and only with the permission of the other  hereditary chiefs who own the territory. When we trapped  we would set out traps and the white man would come behind  us an take the trapped animals out of the traps and steal  them.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Mr. David, I am going to ask you later about trapping and  I am going to ask you later about being chased with sticks  by the white man if you were on what they call their land  but first I want to deal with the travel aspect of going  to and from your territory.  During a year what would be longest amount of time  that you would spend at any particular spot generally  speaking?  A  When we trapped we would start in September and then finish  up in December.  Q   That was the time that you spent out on your territory,  is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   Did you spent any part of the rest of the year out on your  territory?  A   They would go back later on with the permission of the  hereditary chiefs who own that territory.  Q   Which chief has the territory which is closest to  Moricetown?  A  Wah Tah Keght has territory close to Moricetown.  Q   The person having that name is Henry Alfred?  A  Yes.  Q   So it's true you hunted not only on your territory but  on almost all of the territory of the Wet'suwet'en?  A   Yes, I did trap in other territories. My wife's relatives  and when I trapped on other peoples territory half of what  I got would go to the chief of that territory.  Q   Is there any territory of the hereditary chiefs in the  Statement of Claim that you have not trapped upon?  A  We trapped most of the other hereditary chiefs territories 'ñ†17  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  with their permission and we did not cause each other any  trouble. It was the white people who started creating  problems for us.  Q   Do you remember if there is any territory of the  Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs that you personally did  not trap on?  A   No, I can't remember not trapping on other hereditary chiefs  territory. When I did it was usually with thir permission.  Q   Your answer then is that you think you trapped on all of  the territories at some point or other?  A  Yes.  Q   When I say "you" I mean Johnny David personally?  A   Yes, I understand when you say "you" you're referring to  me, and I have trapped or hunted in other peoples territory  with their permission.  Q   Have you ever gone to school?  A   No, I haven't.  Q   Do you know how to read or write English?  A   No.  Q   Do you know how to sign your name?  A   I just know how to sign it with the cross.  Q   Have you at other times told people that they can sign  your name for you?  A   Yes, they write their own names down as witnesses.  Q   Do they write your name down at the same time with your  permission?  A   Yes, I cross it they write my name next to it.  Q   Do you know if other Wet'suwet'en do the same thing?  A   Yes, they do it, all the old people.  Q   Do the Wet'suwet'en have a written language?  A   Yes, it is written, I'm getting part-way through it.  It's written down in a book.  THE INTERPRETER: He wants to ask you if you want to see it.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   When you were growing up, did you write things down or  did people that you know write things down?  A   Yes.  Q   Doi you know if peoplewrote down the history -- if your  people wrote down the history of the Wet'suwet'en?  A  The older people that have died before us, they did not  write down their histories. After their deaths we're suffering.  Q   Is the Wet'suwet'en language different among different  houses?  A  No. We all speak the same.  Q    Is it different among the clans? 6-18  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  A   No, the only place it's different is amongst the Skeena  River people.  Q   The Gitksan?  THE INTERPRETER:  The Gitksan.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Do you speak their language?  A   At one time I spoke the Gitksan language as well as the  Tsim Shiam language, and I have now forgotten how to speak  the language.  Q   Do you know how to speak the language of the Nishga?  Q   No. Their language is different.  MR. MILNE: Maybe we should take a break to change the tape  at this point. Off the record.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.05 p.m.    PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 1.50 p.m.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Before we stopped for lunch, I was asking you questions  about language, the language of the Wet'suwet'en and  whether you spoke other languages. You said at one time  you spoke Tsim Shiam and Gitksan; who taught you those  languages?  A   It was through my mother and father. Whenever people from  the Gitksan or Tsim Shiam people would come they would  speak their own language and I would ask my mother what  they were saying, and she would translate for me and that's  how I learn the languages.  Q   Did the same thing occur with the people from the east  of the Wet'suwet'en?  MR. GRANT:  Like who?  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Did you learn their language? The Carrier? The Nutseni?  A   The Nutseni speak our language but it sounds a little  different, but we understand Nutseni.  Q   But you didn't learn Nishga?  A   No. Their language was different. The way they spoke  and their words were quite different.  Q   Do you remember Nishga people coming to your house and  talking either to your mother or father?  A   Yes, I remember them coming around to potlatches and  Hagwilget. 6-19  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  Q   Do you knkow other people who are Wet'suwet'en who speak  the Nishga language?  A   No, I don't. They speak a dialect similar to the Gitksan  but it's somehow it's different and I can't understand it  Q   Have you ever had any contact with people --or during  the time that you were growing up, contact with the  Tahltans?  A   I don't know where they come from.  Q   Dees Lake. Telegraph.  A   No.  Q   Do the Wet'suwet'en have a legend or a story about the  creation of the Wet'suwet'en people?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: The Wet'suwet'en people have always lived here.  They weren't just dropped here. They've all grown up in  this territory.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q    Is there a story or history that you know of about where  your people came from in a spiritual sense?  A   No, there are no stories. OUr people, the Wet'suwet'en  were always here and it was the white man who came after  the Wet'suwet'en.  Q   Have you ever worked for wages?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Yes. My father and their ancestors would get  money from the furs that they got and sold to the Hudson  Bay, and as I got stronger I did work for wages surveying.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Did you work for the government as a surveyor?  A  Yes.  Q   When?  THE INTERPRETER: He said I worked for them a long time.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Do you remember when you started working for the government?  A   I can't remember.  Q   Wsa this for the Government of British Columbia or the  Government of Canada?  A   It was for the government that surveyed, starting surveying  the land. The person's name that I remember was Mr. Gray. 6-20  DAVID, J.  Cross- Ex.  Mr. Milne  Q   Do you recall whether that was for the people in Ottawa  or the people in Victoria?  A   I don't know which government it was. They might be from  Victoria, the people who surveyed.  Q   Were you married when you were working as a surveyor?  A   No, I was single.  Q   Did you work as a surveyor after you were married?  A   No, I didn't.  Q   Then, as I understand your other evidence, you were married  around 1914 or so, so you would have been working as a  surveyor before that time?  A   Yes, that's right. Also worked for the railway with a  team of horses.  Q   Was this also before you were married?  A   Yes, before I was married.  Q   Did you work on the survey crew for putting in the railway?  A   Yes, was both for the land survey as well as the railway.  Q   Were you involved in surveying any of the lands that were  set aside as reserves for your people?  A  No, I didn't.  It was Mr. Loring who set up the reserves.  Q   Was your surveying job a steady job?  A   It was just during the summer.  Q   When you were working for the railway was that a steady  job?  A   It was a steady job.  Q   It was a steady job?  THE INTERPRETER: It was a steady job.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Stead job, is that to mean you worked every day all year  round except for holidays and weekends and that sort of  thing?  A   Worked for ten hours a day.  Q   For how many years did you work for ten hours a day for  the railway?  A   It was for the summer through Christmas. That's all the time  I worked for them.  Q   Did you work from the summer to Christmas for many years  for the railway?  A   Altogether about five years.  Q    I'm sorry if I asked this question already, did you work  for the railway after you were married?  A   Before I got married.  Q   Where were you living when you wre working for the railway? Or for the surveyor?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN 6-21  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  THE WITNESS: I lived at North Bulkley.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Were you living on the land that you owned there?  A  Yes.  qDo you remember if at the time you were working for the  railway you had received the grant from the government  for that land?  A  My father lived on that land all of his life and so did I  Q   What kind of a house did you have on that land?  A   Smoke house.  QWhat kind of a place did you live in on the land? What  building?  THE INTERPRETER:He said smoke house.  BY MR. MILNE:  QDid you live in your smoke house?  AYes  QWas that the only building that you had on that land?  ANo, just my father's house. When the white man came they  burnt down all the smoke house.  QDid they burn down your father's house?  AYes, they did burn my father's house down, and they stole  all the guns, they stole all the axes.  QWhen did this happen?  A   It was about 1909. It was after my father had died they  stole all the contents of the house and then burnt it down.  Q   Who did?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  It was McGuinness and his sister's husband Tom  Hagen.  BY MR. MILNE  QHow did you know it was them?  AI recognise the stuff they stole from the house, I seen  it but I did not say anything.  QWhy didn't you say anything?  AHe said if I spoke up about it the law would come and take  me away.  Q   Did you tell any person in authority, such as the Indian  Agent, about what had happened?  A  The Indian Agent didn't care about us. He was the one  that put us back on to reserves and he was a white man.  In the fall my father had put aside all the furs that  he had trapped for. My father trapped anaydoskee which is 6-22  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  black fox which was worth in those days about $800.00.  Akai MGuinness had come along and taken it out of the  trap and took it home. It was expensive in those days  and he may still be using the money.  QWhat did your father do about that?  AMy father had gone to get the black fox and he was refused  so he waited for a while to see if he could get it back  again and he never did get it back.  Q   Was there a fight between McGuinness and your father?  A  No, there was not a fight. Considered each other good  friends.  QDid McGuinness live near your father?  ALived on the other side. He had a farm there.  QHow close to your father's house was it?  AAbout two miles.  QWas Mr. McGuinness living there when you were a child?  AYes, I was a big boy when he lived there. And the white  people even though they stole things from us they would  turn the story around and say the Indians stole it first,  and they would be threatened to be taken to jail and that  is one of the reasons why they didn't speak up too much.  QDid your father ever tell you why McGuinness burned his  house?  Alt was after my father's death that they burnt his house  down.   OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  There was Tom Hagen who took all the guns, the  axes, the knives. I knew about it but I didn't say any- thing.  BY MR. MILNE  QWhere were you when all this was happening?   OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:I was not on my father's property when this happened, I was away.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Were you working on the railway or as a surveyor then?  A   I was working at a mine when this happened.  Q   What mine were you working at?  A   Owen Lake Mine.  QWere you working for wages then?  AYes. 6-23  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  Q   How long did you work at Owen Lake?  A   I was working with powder. I didn't work there very long  about one or two months.  I worked with powder, load it  into the rocks and blow it up.  QAfter you got married did you work for wages?  AYes, I did.  QWhere did you work at the time you were married?  AI worked all over the place.  QDid you work on a regular basis? Were you always working  or did you have long times during the year when you did  not work?  A  Worked in the summers and in the winters I did my trapping.  Q   Did you ever work in a saw mill?  A  Yes, I did.  QYou said that you worked for about five years for the  railway; did you work anywhere else for that length of  time?  ANo.  QHave you ever worked as a guide for wages?  THE INTERPRETER:How do I say that? I'm having problems with  the word "guide" in our own language.  BY MR. MILNE:  QTo hunt animals?  ANo.  QYou stated in your Examination in Chief that you had  farmed a property that you lived on near Perow; after  your father died, how long after was it that you started  farming?   OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:I got some land near Topley through pre-emption  and that's where I did my farming?  BY MR. MILNE:  QIs that the same land that you lived as a boy?  AYes.  QWere you farming before you were married?  AYes, I did.  Q   Did you farm after you were married?  A  Yes, and I had cows and other animals. 6-24  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  QWere you running your farm at the same time that you were  working for wages after you married?  AWas a different time when farming. I trapped and I also  did some logging.  Q   How long did you work as a logger?  A  Skidded for about eight years for Carl McKenzie. I was  skidding.  QWas this during the time you owned the land in Perow?  AYes.  QAnd was this after you sold the land in Perow? Did you  work as a logger after you had sol your land in Perow?  AYes, after. In those days, they were hard times.  QDid you work as a logger skidding for Carl McKenzie or  anybody else after your mother died?  AYes, I worked for McKenzie. Also worked for him doing  his haying and other things, for about eight years.  MR. MILNE:Perhaps we'll just take a break here for a few  minutes.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. MILNE:  QDo you remember the first name of the man you called  McGuinness?  A  Akai (?) . His brother's name was Neil.  MR. GRANT:Named a stereo system after him!  BY MR. MILNE:  QYou said that you were afraid that the police would come  and take you away if you told them about your father's  house being burned down; do you know of anyone that that  had happened to? That is, they complained and the police  took them rather than the white man away?  ANo, I can't remember.  QI think we had got up to about 1940 or so in terms of your  employment record. Do you remember if you worked for wages  other than for McKenzie after your mother died? If so,  what did you do?  MR. GRANT:Before he answers that question. I just question  this on the grounds of relevance. I maybe persuaded but  I'm not sure. I'm not certain what you're leading to in  terms of this evidence of this individual's employment  history.  MR. MILNE:The Statement of claim sets out that, in Paragraph  55 I believe it is without having it in front of me, all  of the types of things to which the Wet'suwet'en were 6-25  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  alleged to have done in their various territories. This  person is a Wet'suwet'en and is a chief of the Wet'suwet'en  and is giving evidence that, in addition it appears to what  those things were in Pargraph 55, he also did other things  and those are the things I am eliciting for the record. I  think it is relevant to Paragraph 55.  MR. GRANT:I'm going to maintain the objection, for the record,  and I presume you will proceed but I reserve the right to  object at trial on the grounds of relevance.  Possibly -- before you go to your next question -- I  would like you to translate, if you can, the exchange that  occurred so the Witness knows what is happening. If you  wish, the Reporter can read it back to you.  THE INTERPRETER:Would you read it back please?  MR. MILNE:Maybe I can put it on the record this way.  QMr. David, your lawyer has said that he is objecting to the  questions I am asking you about your employment because he  doesn't think it has much to do with the case your people  are making and he may object when it goes to trial on the  same basis or some other basis if he sees fit.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  MR. MILNE:What was that answer?  THE INTERPRETER:He said he's getting confused.  MR. MILNE:In any event, I think Mr. Grant has made his objec  -tion and I've noted it.  MR. GRANT:Just for the record, I would like the Reporter to  read back your explanation why you're asking this question.  I think it is only fair to the Witness why you're asking  these questions and I would ask the Reporter to read that  answer back now.  MR. MILNE:I think he's confused about your objection not my  answer.  MR. GRANT:I guess he hasn't heard your answer yet in  Wet'suwet'en.  THE REPORTER:Mr. Milne said:  "The Statement of Claim sets  out that, in Paragraph 55 I believe  it is without having it in front of  me, all of the types of things to  which the Wet'suwet'en were alleged  to have done on their various  territories."    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE REPORTER:"This person is Wet'suwet'en and is a chief of 6-26  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  the Wet'suwet'en and is giving evidence  that, in addition it appears to what  those things were in Paragraph 55, he  also did other things and those are  the things I am eliciting for the  record."  THE INTERPRETER:He is saying that when we finished our trapping  that's when we went logging. He asked if that's the information you want?  MR. MILNE:Yes.  THE WITNESS:We stay on the land. Once all our trapping was  done we did other things. Logging, haying and so forth.  BY MR. MILNE:  QWhen you were logging, or working as a surveyor, or working  in Owen Lake mine, or any other jobs you had for wages,  were there other Wet'suwet'en working with you?  A  No, there weren't too many other Wet'suwet'en worked along-  me. It was just Topley Matthew Sam who worked with  me working with powder for five years.  QDuring the time that you were working for wages and hunting  or trapping otherwise, did you make more money working  for wages than from trapping?  AI made more money trapping that I did at logging.  QDo you know if this was the case with other Wet'suwet'en?  MR. GRANT:Just a minute. He said that not many others worked  with him. You just asked him that question and he said  only two others worked with him.  MR. MILNE:Well, they were Wet'suwet'en and the question is  do you know if that was the case with other Wet'suwet'en?  MR. GRANT:Are you referring to these two?  MR. MILNE:No, I'm referring to the Wet'suwet'en people.  THE WITNESS:Yes, there was other people who did that. Most  of them made more money at trapping than they did working  for wages.  BY MR. MILNE:  QI think we have to go back to one of my other questions.  We looked after your employment record until about 1940.  You earlier stated you remembered World War II; did you  work for wages after World War II?   OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:First World War I remember we worked for a dollar 6-27  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  a day. Second World War everybody worked for a wage.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   You continued to work for wages after the Second World  War, is that right?  A  Yes. That was the time that I did some logging.  QAs you grew older, from the time that your father died  to the time you did logging, did you work for wages more  and trap less?  AAfter my father died I did more trapping than I did working  for white people.  QWhat about later on?  AAfter that I became a farmer and I got married.  QAfter you became a farmer and got married, did you work  for white people more?  AAfter I got married I worked at logging and also haying.  I was usually put in that position because I did things  right.  Q  Have you ever had a driver's license?  A  Yes, I did have a driver's license and I got my son, Moses,  car license when he was 15.  Q   Do you remember when you got your driver's license?  A  About 1920?  A  Have you ever had fishing license?  A  No, I didn't have fishing license. I only did when I was  down at the coast.  Q  Do you have a licensed trapline?  A  Yes.  Q   Do you have more than one?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: About six traplines that belong to my father.  Nobody goes round there except myself.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q Are these traplines that are licensed by the government?  A Yes, they did.  Q Are they in your name now?  A It was in Moses' name and now it's in Peter David's name.  Q Peter David is one of your sons?  A My son's son.  MR. MILNE:Is he through?  THE INTERPRETER:(Nodding affirmatively)  BY MR. MILNE:  Are these traplines in the territory of Smogelgem? 6-28  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  A   Yes.  Q   Are they in the Kilwoneetzen territory?  A  No, it's near Perow.  QA11 of them?  A  My father's land is near Perow in North Bulkley.  QAre all the traplines near Perow in North Bulkley?  AYes. My father's trapline was looked after by my son,  Moses. Now that he's dead Peter David is looking after it.  QHow old is Peter David?  AI've forgotten what his age.  QIs he a boy or a man?  AHe's a man. He had a wife and he has got many children.  His son Philip is standing behind him.  Q   Do you have any licensed traplines in the territory of  Maxlaxlex?  A  His land is in the Copper River area.  Q   Do you have a licensed trapline in the Copper River area?  A  No, I don't.  QWere these traplines in your name at some time?  MR. GRANT:Which traplines?  MR. MILNE:The six that he talked about  THE WITNESS:It was in my name  BY MR. MILNE:  QDo you have any traplines in the territory of any of the  other hereditary chiefs?  ANo, I don't.  QWhen did the six traplines go into your name, do you remember?  AI don't remember.  QDo you remember if you had any problem with the government  about getting those traplines?  ANo. No, I didn't.  MR. MILNE:Ask him how he is feeling, would you?  THE INTERPRETER:He said I'm tried and my throat is starting  to feel sore.  MR. MILNE:Ask him if he wants to stop and continue tomorrow  morning?  THE INTERPRETER:He said yes, and try to finish tomorrow.  MR. MILNE:I will do my best. Go off the record now.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT:I'm sorry, could you go back on the record for a  second? I want to put something on the record.  On the record. I was going to advise the Witness  of this off the record but maybe you can tell him as he  is under Cross-Examination he shouldn't talk to me or anyone 6-29  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  else about the general nature of his evidence until  tomorrow. Thank you. Off the record    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 P.m.  UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING AT 10:30 a.m.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  Veronica Harper (Ms)  Official Court Reporter  VH:1 Mar/86B.C.S.R.A. #263  TRANSCRIPT CONTINUES ON NEXT PAGE 6-30 6-30  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  VICTOR WILLIAM JIM  Wet'suwet'en Interpreter,  Previously Sworn.  JOHN DAVID, a Witness called  on behalf of the Plaintiffs,  previously sworn, testifies  as follows:    UPON RESUMING AT 11:25 a.m., 25 FEBRUARY, 1986    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. MILNE:This is the Continuation of the Cross-Examination  of the Witness, Johnny David, from yesterday. All of the  same parties are present as yesterday, and the Witness  and the Interpreter are still sworn.  Would you, Mr. Interpreter, explain to him that he is  still under oath and make sure that he understands that.  Does he understand that?  THE INTERPRETER:Yes, he understands.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MILNE (contd):  Q   Yesterday you were telling us of your traplines and the  fact that you had six of them that were licensed, and all  of them were in the North Bulkley territory; do you have  or have you ever made a map of your traplines?  A  There were maps but they've all been lost. I know where  the traplines are.  QWhen was the last time you saw these maps?  AWas a long time ago, and when we trap the traplines are  glazed and this is what you go by.  Q   Have you ever seen a government map of your traplines?  A  Yes I did. Yes, I did see the map and through our own  laws you see the trees blazed and that's where we go.  QDo you know if the government maps were different to what  your line was according to your trees being blazed?  AOur own laws where the trees are blazed are correct. The  government maps are wrong and our ancestors have trapped  and we know where their lines are.  Q   Have you told other people who are doing research for you  and for the Wet'suwet'en people where your traplines were?  MR. GRANT: I object to anything that is aimed to elicit infor-mation  gathered for this litigation or in contemplation of  this litigation. I claim privilege with respect to that.  MR. MILNE:I am not asking what he told them. I am just asking  if he told them, and I don't think that's objectionable. 6-31  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  So would you ask if he has told people where his trap-  lines were for purposes of this litigation?  BY MR. MILNE:  QWhat sort of traps did you use in your territory?  AUsed three different types of traps that were man-made  as well as your normal traps. One of the man-made traps  is the dead-fall traps.  QWhen you say normal traps, do you mean steel traps?  AYes. And there's three different kinds. They were traps  for bears and -- grizzly bears.  QFor as long as you can remember, have you used only steel  traps?  AI use the three different kinds of steel traps as well as  three different kinds of dead-fall traps.  QWhere did you get the steel traps from?  AHudson Bay.  QWhere was the Hudson's Bay?  AOld Hazelton.  QWas there any other Hudson's Bay around the areas that  you went to?  AThey had stores throughout the territory. They also sold  liquor, Hudson Bay rum.  QDo you know where in the territory these stores were?  ABeside the one at Hazelton, they had a store at Babine,  Fort St. James, and the last one at Fort Fraser.  QWas the store at Old Hazelton there when you were born?  AYes.  QDid you trade with Hudson's Bay since the time that you  were born? I mena, have you on a regular basis traded  ever since you were born?  AA11 the old people traded their furs with Hudson Bay.  QDid you also get guns and blankets and other supplies from  the Hudson's Bay store?  AYes.  QDo you know who the person was when you were growing up  as a young man who ran the Hudson's Bay store in Hazelton?  AThere were many people that ran the stores and I can't  remember their names.  QDid you or do you know if any of your people asked the  Hudson's Bay store to leave? That is, the Hazelton Hudson's  Bay store?  THE INTERPRETER:You mean the Wet'suwet'en or?  MR. MILNE:The Wet'suwet'en.  THE WITNESS:Our people did not ask the people from the Hudson  Bay to leave. The first store was at the location where 6-32  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  'Ksan Village is, in the area where the camp ground is.  At the site I described, there were three smoke houses  and the store was right in the middle and they would bring  their materials by steam-boat.  My father's brother, David McKenzie, when he was a  young man spoke three languages. He spoke Gitksan,  Wet'suwet'en and Chinook. Because he knew the three  languages he was made the operator of the store.  BY MR. MILNE:  QFor how long was he the operator of the store?  AWhen McKenzie was the store owner, during that time the  first store had burnt to the ground. The other buildings  from the village had also burnt. That village was called  Gitanmaax. And the trees near the village and some of  the totem poles had also burned. It was after this incident  that the Hudson Bay store moved to the new location.  QQWere you alive at the time of this fire?  AI was not born yet, it was way before my time. McKenzie  himself had told me about this.  Q   Was David McKenzie Wet'suwet'en?  A  He was my father's brother. Older brother.  Q   What was his Indian name?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Skitkanu. That was his child's name.  BY MR. MILNE:  Qln relation to your territory, what is the name of the  nearest other Indian tribe?  MR. GRANT:You mean non-Wet'suwet-en?  MR. MILNE:Who is not Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:They were all Wet'suwet'en.  MR. GRANT:Just to clarify, are you referring to the Perow  or Smogelgem territory or the Kilwoneetzen territory?  MR. MILNE:I ws referring actually to the Perow Smogelgem  territory.  Q   What I want to know is: have you heard of the Carrier  Indian Band? I don't know what the Wet' suwet' en word for  Carrier is.  THE INTERPRETER:  Nutseni.  BY MR. MILNE:  QHave you heard of the Nutseni? 6-33  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  A   Yes.  Q   Did they have a boundary that was shared with Smogelgem's  territory?  A  No, they didn't. They lived further east.  QDid they share a boundary with a Wet'suwet'en?  AThey did live close by to the Wet'suwet'en. They had their  own territory.  QDo you know where their boundary of their territory is?  The boundary closest to the Wet'suwet'en territory?  MR. GRANT: Are you referring -- just to be clear -- the boundary  between the Wet'suwet'en -- not necessarily between his  territory but between the Wet'suwet'en and the Nutseni,  is that what you're asking jim?  MR. MILNE:I'm asking him the boundary between the Wet'suwet'en  territory and the Nutseni territory.  MR. GRANT:Okay.  THE WITNESS: The boundary between Wet'suwet'en and Nutseni is  at Burns Lake and Ootsa Lake and part of Skin Dyee's  territory was the boundary. And Skin Dyee was a man from Wet' suwet' en  country.  BY MR. MILNE:  QDo you know if Skin Dyee had any trouble with the Nutseni?  ANo, they didn't. They lived next to each other and they  considered each other good friends.  QDo you have any relatives who are Nutseni?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: My two relatives who are now living in Nutseni  territory is Alex Long Charlie and another lady who is  partially blind, and the wife of Francis Charlie whose name  I think is Louise.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: There's some ladies from here have married men  from Nutseni territory and their kids are brought up in  that territory. That's all.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   By that marriage, do the Nutseni have any right to hunt  in Wet'suwet'en territory?  ANo. They were born in Nutseni, that's where they were  brought up.  QWho was born? The children?  A   The children from the Wet'suwet'en women and Nutseni men. 6-34  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  Qbut do either spouse, if it is male or female depending  on the case, who marries a Wet'suwet'en and is Nutseni  himself have the right to hunt or trap on the Wet'suwet'en  territory?  Alt's very rare that they come into Wet'suwet'en country.  There's a few that come but they go back to their territory  right away.  Q   But do they have a right to come to the Wet'suwet'en territory to hunt?  A   Only if they're invited by the head chiefs of the territory.  If they do, they give half their catch to the hereditary  chief who owns the territory.  MR. MILNE:We're going to have to take a break for a video  tape change.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. MILNE:  QDo you know if the Nutseni were ever invited to Wet'suwet'en  feasts?  A  Yes, they're invited and they helped out at Hagwilget.  QWhat sort of feasts were they invited to?  AThey're invited when someone dies and expenses have to  be paid back.  QWere they invited regardless of who died? So long as there  was a feast?  A  When their relatives die and when anyone dies for that  matter, they are invited and they usually dance and they're  anda manaak. I have pictures of those feasts, I have them  in the room.  Q   Is it possible for a Nutseni through his attendance at  a feast become entitled to Wet'suwet'en territory?  A  When the Nutseni are invited to a feast, when they help  they're invited for short periods of time to trap on  Wet'suwet'en territory but they are not given Wet'suwet'en  territory forever.  Q   If they come as manaak is it not so that anda manaak  under Wet'suwet'en law can acquire territory?  A   They're only given the opportunity to trap in the territory for a year. They don't give it to them forever.  QHave you known this to occur? That Nutseni has been given  the right to trap in Wet'suwet'en territory?  AI have seen them and that is why I'm telling you now.  Q   Were the Nutseni ever able to trap on the territory of  Maxlaxlex?  ANo.  Q   Were the Nutseni allowed to hunt or trap on the territory 6-35  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  of Smogelgem?  A  No. They never came around. They trapped for three  occasions in the Francis Lake area only after they were  invited. That is why the overlap with the Carrier-Sekanni  is with us today. When the Nutseni say their boundary  goes from Houston east, that is not so, they will not take that land.  From Burns Lake to Skin Dyee's territory, that  is the boundary of the Wet'suwet'en people. It's got  nothing to do with the Nutseni.  QHas there always been this dispute with the Nutseni over  the overlapping territory?  MR. GRANT:Just a moment. I'm not certain that he ever said  there was a dispute with the Nutseni. He did say there  is an overlap with the Carrier-Sekanni but I think you're  putting words in his mouth. I think you should rephrase  the question.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   You have said that Nutseni will never have the territory  from Houston to Burns Lake because that is Wet'suwet'en;  have you argued with the Nutseni over that territory?  A   In the old days the Nutseni and the Wet'suwet'en did not  have any problems with the overlap. It is the people that  are being born today that are creating the problems with  the overlap.  Q   How long has this problem been going on?  A   The land of the Wet'suwet'en and the Nutseni has been talked  about for many years and it is young people or the people  that are born and our young people are the ones who are  disputing the land, and they will not get the land.  Q  Are the Wet'suwet'en invited to the feasts of the Nutseni  and, if so, are they entitled to any Nutseni territory?  A   Yes, they do invite us and I have been there many times  myself.  THE INTERPRETER: I have to finish the other half of the question.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: When I'm invited I'm usually asked to speak, as  I do here. No, the Wet'suwet'en do not trap on Nutseni  territory. When our relatives die that is when we are  invited to the feasts by the Nutseni. And that's all.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:We go down for a feast when our relatives die  and expenses have to be paid there. 6-36  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne  BY MR. MILNE:  QHave you heard of the Kitwancool Indian people?  AYes, I do.  Qdo you know where they are in relation to the Wet'suwet'en  territory?  AThe Wet'suwet'en live in this area and then you have the  where the road goes to Alaska.  Q   Do you have relatives who live with the Kitwancool?  A   I just have a granddaughter there, I've forgotten her name.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS: Even though we speak different languages we are  still related.  BY MR. MILNE:  QDo the Kitwancool have a boundary in common with the  Wet'suwet'en in their territories?  AI don't know. The people from Skeena River would know that  QHave the Wetsuwet'en or to your knowledge Gitksan gone  to war against the Nutseni or the Kitwancool people?  MR. GRANT:When?  MR. MILNE:Ever.  THE WITNESS:Oh boy!  MR. GRANT:I think on reflection that question is actually  four questions combined into one and I think it is only  fair to the Witness that you break it down.  MR. MILNE:I don't    MR. GRANT:You're talking about the Wet'suwet'en or Gitksan  going to war with the Nutseni or the Kitwancool.  MR. MILNE:I'11 break it down.  MR. GRANT:There's four different groups and given the time  frame is rather broad.  BY MR. MILNE:  Q   Do you know if the Wet'suwet'en have gone to war against  the Nutseni?  A   In the very old days I was told that they did go to war.  QWere you told what the war was about?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  I am not feeling strong enough to talk about that.  I was told by my ancestors a long time ago.  MR. MILNE:Are you feeling strong enough to continue on or  would you like to take a break? 6-37  DAVID, J.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Milne   OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER:He says he's feeling tired and not to take  too long this afternoon.  MR. MILNE:Let's go off the record and discuss our time frame  here.  MR. GRANT:Just before wo do, I just want to put on the record  and I would like to explain to Johnny, there was a delay,  Mr. Milne had to be in Chambers this morning, and for the  record, we were scheduled to start at 10.30 and it actually  started at 11.30 and Johnny was waiting here patiently  from 10.30 on. I am not saying this to cast fault but  just that we understand that he was waiting an extra hour  and that may well lead to making him feel tried. On behalf  of myself I would like to apoligise for making you wait,  Johnny.  MR. MILNE:Go off the record.  MR. GRANT:Just wait till he tells him that.  MR. MILNE:Okay.  MR. GRANT:Go off the record.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.3 0 p.m.    PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 1.3 0 p.m.  BY MR. MILNE:  QBefore we broke for lunch, you were going to tell me about  the Wet'suwet'en and whether they ever had a war with the  Nutseni; can you tell me that story now?  If you are too tired, I can ask you the question some  other time and we can go on to other things now.  THE INTERPRETER:He said I get pretty tired and I can't sit  up for too long.  MR. MILNE:Ask him if he's too tired now to go any further  today?  THE INTERPRETER:He says I'll speak for a little while, and  I want you to finish as quick as possible, and I don't  want to speak again next time.  MR. MILNE:I'11 do my best.  THE WITNESS:If you are going to finish now, I'll sit up a  little longer.  MR. MILNE:Would you tell him I have many more questions to  ask him and if he would instead of doing it now he would 6-38  DAVID, J.  rather do it later then I can come back and he can have a  good long rest. Tell him the next time we meet will  probably be the last time.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  MR. GRANT:Maybe go off the record.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT:For the record, I just want to set out what occurred  at this break. It appeared when Mr. Milne asked the first  question that the Witness, Mr. David, was tired although  he -- questions were then asked about how tired he was.  I'm concerned as counsel for the plaintiffs on two  respects here. One is we seem to have difficulty in setting  out another date which is relatively soon. We have agreed  between counsel, and I must say with some reluctance on  my part, to April 21st, 22nd, and 23rd. I'm further concerned about that given the Witness indicated when we were  off the record that he is not feeling as well, that he  feels he is getting weaker and he's not certain he will  be as well the next time as he is now. The reason why we  set the date so far is because counsel for the crown has  indicated that he anticipates or estimates two days at  the rate we're going, which I would say is between two  and four hours when we talk about a day for Johnny's  evidence and, therefore, in order not to have this all  split up into small piecees, which is just more exhausting  for the witness and more difficult logistically, we've  agreed to a three day block of time which gives an extra  day in case we don't have enough time in the first two  days. I didn't raise this with Mr. Milne yesterday and, of  course, the Order speaks as it does. Today we have to  adjourn because the Witness is tired. It's unfortunate  that this commission is taking so long but I anticipate  from what Mr. Milne says that we will be able to complete  on that next block of time in April.  MR. MILNE:For the record, as I mentioned as well, my estimates  are probably about the same as Mr. Grant's were on the  Examination in Chief and I too hate to see it go to so  far but that's the only time counsel are able to get t  together on their dates. Hopefully the Witness is well  rested and able to continue at that time. The Order speaks  for itself as at whose risk this adjournment is made.  We'll adjourn over then until April 21 for the continuation.  At nine o'clock. 6-39  DAVID, J.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT:Just going back on the written record not on the  video because it has been disassembled. Johnny, I want  to tell you that you're under Cross-Examination and I hope  this won't be difficult for you given the length of the  adjournment but generally you should not talk about your  evidence to others while you're under Cross-Examination.  So you won't be interviewed or discuss the general nature  of your evidence in this case until we try to complete  the Cross in april.  THE WITNESS:Okay. I understand.  MR. GRANT:So adjounred to nine o'clock on April 21. Off the  record.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 1.50p.m., 25 FEBRUARY, 1986  TO BE RESUMED AT 9.00 a.m., 21 APRIL, 1986.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  Veronica Harper (Ms)  Official Court Reporter  VH:2 Mar/86B.C.S.R.A. #263  wp/bdl02

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