Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Martha Brown Vol. 2] British Columbia. Supreme Court Sep 19, 1985

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 1  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  FRANCES MARY SIMPSON,  Gitksan Interpreter,  Sworn.  MARTHA BROWN,  Witness called on behalf of  the Plaintiffs, sworn, testifies as follows:  SEPTEMBER 19, 1985  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Yesterday, when we stopped we were talking about the  feasts  and the  feast of your sister  a few months  ago  and we also  referred to the  feasts of  Paul Xhliimlaxha  many  years    ago.    Do    you  remember  at  any    of  the  Xhliimlaxha feasts in your lifetime that the description       of  the territories of Xhliimlaxha were given?  A     They don't remember the territory during the feast.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     I remember when the territory was turned over to Xhliimlaxha and this was, she mentioned it some time ago when  they held a gawaganii with Xhliimlaxha.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     This was held at Xsa'angexhlast, which is great-grandmother  told her.  A     Is the Witness finished her answer?  A     Yes.  Q       We have  referred to  your name  Xhliimlaxha  yesterday  and today  and I wonder if   you can explain   to us what  Xhliimlaxha   means  in   English,  what  that   word means  in  English?  A     I don' t know.  (Witness responds further to Interpreter)  A     She doesn't know why it's called Xhliimlaxha her grandmother didn't really explain the name to her.  Q     At Frank Harris ' feast, when you received the name  Xhliimlaxha, who announced at the feast that you were  taking that name?  A  (In English)  Me.  Q     Why was it you that was the person announcing it?  A     I am taking the name so she put the feast up .  Q     Can you tell us the names of some of the Chiefs who witnessed you taking that name and called out your name at  Frank Harris ' feast?  A     We invited all the Frog Clan, Nikat'een, Geel.  MR.  GOLDIE :  What were the last names please? A  Nikat'een and Geel. 2  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR.  GRANT:  Were there other Chiefs who witnessed your name? A  (In English)  T'elgamuux and  Antgulilibiksxw.   There  is lots  of Chiefs in that feast.  (Court Reporter requests clarification of Gitksan terms)  MR. GRANT: T'elgamuux and Antgulilibiksxw.  MR. GOLDIE:  Is the second one of the Plaintiffs?  MR. GRANT: I'm sorry, Antgulilibiksxw, yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  Is that number five on the Statement of Claim?  MR.  GRANT:  Yes.  MR.  GOLDIE:  Thank you.  MR. GRANT : Paragraph five.  EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT CONTINUING:  Q     Did Nikat' een call out your name at the feast?  A (In English) Um-hmm.  Q     Do you remember what he said?  A  (In English)  No. Q  Okay.   Is Nikat'een Jimmy Woods? A     She  forgot if it ' s John Smith the late John Smith.  Q     Okay.  At Frank Harris' feast it may have been John Smith,  is that correct?  A (In English) Uh-huh.  Q     Okay.  Was T'elgamuux Albert Tait at that time?  A (In English) Yes.  Q     And was Antgulilibiksxw  Mary Johnson at that time?  A (In English) Yes.  Q     And was Geel Walter Harris at that time?  A (In English) Um-hmm.  Q     Can you explain why you invited the Chiefs to Frank  Harris' feast?  A     This is the law of our Indian people.  Q     And why did these Chiefs call out your name at the feast?  A     It ' s our Indian law that they call out the Indian name.  Q     And when they call out your name at the feast where you  got, received the name, what -- what does it mean for  the Chiefs to call it out?  A     It's called edimwatxw.  MR. GOLDIE:  Can Mrs. Sampson translate that?  Mr. GRANT:  Yeah, I'll come to that in a moment . Can you give  me -- just check the spelling on that. For the record  that's E-D-I-M-W-A-T-X-W.  A     A form of witnessing she receive the name.  MR. GRANT :  Q     Okay.  Is this what happened at the old feasts?  A  (In English) Yeah.  Q     Okay.  Can a Chief take on, a Gitksan Chief take on an  Indian name without there being a feast? 3  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A     No.  (Further response by Witness  to Interpreter) A  Whenever there is a death of a Chief one should come in  who will take the Chief's name.  Q       And is it  important for the  other Chiefs  to witness  that person taking the Chief's name?  A     Yes.  Q     Yesterday you described some of the different kinds of  feasts that  there were and  one of them  was a pole  raising feast.  Do  you remember a  feast, a pole  raising  feast when T'elgamuux's pole was raised?  A (In English) I know,  I remember everything.  Q     And how old were you when that feast was held?  A (In English) About ten, I think.  Q     About ten years old?  A (In English) Uh-huh.  Q     And where was that feast held?  A     In Kispiox.  Q     Before that pole raising feast, was there any other  feast at which anyone had announced that the pole was  going to be raised?  (Interpreter speaks to Witness)  MR. GRANT:  Can we take a break and go off the record.  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT CONTINUING:  Q     You were not feeling well and you just explained to  Mrs. Sampson why you weren't feeling well?  A     She has these attacks.  This is about the third time  where she feels everything just goes blank.  And when  she feels this way it helps when she lays down and gets  a few minutes sleep and then she feels okay.  Q     Okay.  Does she want to take a break and go and lay  down for a few minutes now?  A     No.  Q     Okay.  A(In English) Even while I'm talking I fall over and die it's  okay.  Q     We hope not Mrs. Brown. We were talking about T'elgamuux's  feast.  Was there a feast put on by the people who were  going to raise that pole before they actually went and  got the tree for the pole?  A     Before they start they have a feast called Li'ligitim  P'tekt.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The Chief explains how the work is going to be done.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    After the feast of the clan is finished, that's all. 4  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  (Further response by Witness  to  Interpreter) A  They -- the pole is cut and ready.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     On the father's side.  Q     The father is -- does the father's side, is the father's  side of the Chief responsible for cutting the pole?  A (In English) Um-hmm.  Q     Yes, Okay. Now, is there any ceremony when the tree is  cut for the pole?  A (In English)  No.  Q     How did they decide where they go and get the tree?  A     They know where a good pole is and that's what they cut.  Q     Will this be on the territory of the people who are  raising the pole?  A     No.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Wherever they find a good tree.  Q     How long would they leave the tree after they cut it  before they carve the pole?  A (In English) They finish right away. They carve the pole right  away as soon as they get down in the village.  Q     Okay. Do you know where the pole came from for  T'elgamuux's pole?  A     Just -- there is a place called Suugwilmaas which is just  by Kispiox there up at Miracle Ranch.  Q     Up at Miracle Ranch, go ahead?  A     That ' s where they got the pole from.  Q     Okay.  And is the father's  side responsible for carving  the pole as well as cutting it?  A     Yes. Q     And  is there a name for the father's side that you use in  Gitksan?  A     She forgot some of the names that are used but the in-laws  are the ones to do the work.  Q     Okay.  Is that the same as what ' s called the Wilksiwitxw  or is it different?  A     The same.  Q     Can you tell us what you remember  about the feast for  T' elgamuux' s pole that happened when you were ten years  old?  A     Before the feast they hold a feast called Welcome Feast.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    A Welcome Feast is held and it's just a good time feast.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The next day they hold a regular feast after the pole is  raised.  Q     Is there a name for that feast after the pole is raised, 5 BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  aGitksan name? A     It's  called pole raising Li'ligitim Hed'nsimgan.  Q     Did you have to wear anything special at that feast?  A     Our mother put headbands on our heads with red paper.  Q  Why did she tell you she did that?  A     In case the laxnox came upon them.  Q     Did you go to the feast, that particular feast yourself?  A     No.  MR. GOLDIE:  What was the word she used and explanation for the  headbands?  MR. GRANT:  In case the naxnox --  (Interpreter responds to Mr. Grant)  MR. GRANT:  Oh, I'm sorry laxnox, L-A-X-N-0-K.   (sic)  MR. GOLDIE:  And that,  is there a translation for that word?  MR.  GRANT :  Q     Can you explain in Gitksan what you mean by laxnox?  A All  the    Chiefs  have    different    laxnox.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Their laxnox is called gitwaltxwm gibeeo.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     And stawiisxw.  Q     That's the laxnox of Xhliimlaxha?  A     These are the -- this is the laws of our grandfathers and  we should try to practice it to show our young children.  MR. GOLDIE:  The question I have was, is the Interpreter able to  give a translation?  MR. GRANT:  I'm going back to -- I'm going to go back to that.  Urn -- I don't thing there is a simple word, that's why  I'm going through the Witness.  MR. GOLDIE:  There is a concept presumably.  MR. GRANT :  Yes.  Q     Well,  I'll ask you, can you translate laxnox or do you  want?  (Interpreter responds without questioning Witness)  A     The way I understand a laxnox, there' s almost a symbol  like acting out a certain-animal.  That's about as close  as I can come to understanding.  MR. GOLDIE: And if I may ask Mr. Grant through you one further  point, did she say that each house or each clan had its  own laxnox?  MR. GRANT:  No, her answer was all the Chiefs have different  laxnox.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right,  thank you.  MR. GRANT:  That was - - I noted that.  EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT CONTINUING:  Q    This pole raising feast that we've talked about, how long 6  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  does it take to put up the pole in T' elgamuux's  case?  A  They start early in the morning and by, in the afternoon  they're finished.  Q     Is there a ceremony of the Gitksan when the pole is raised?  A     Andimhanak'  is the wives of the Chiefs that are raising  the pole, they do a dance.  Q     Okay, and who is -- who does the Chief ask to do the pole  raising, who pulls up the pole? Is it the people of the  Chief's house that pull up the pole?  A     Yes.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Not just one goes out, all of them go out to pull on the  pole.  Q     All of the people of the house?  A (In English) Yeah.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     All of T'elgamuux's  family.  Q     Okay, do you remember who was T'elgamuux at that time?  A (In English) It's all I remember that old man's name is Johnny.  I forgot the last name.  Q     Okay.  A (In English) Johnny Genalaxha.  A     Johnny Genalaxha.  MR.  GRANT:   G-E-N-A-L-A-X-H-A.  Q     Was that another  Indian name, Genalaxha?  A     I don' t know.  Q     Did the Chief do something early in the morning when that  pole was raised?  A     Five o'clock in the morning.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     About five o'clock in the morning the Chief puts his  blanket on and goes throughout the community singing  limx'ooy.  MR.  GRANT:   It's L-I-M-'-X-0-'-0-Y   (sic) .  A     Or Geel.  Q     Okay, what is the --  A     Wait there is more answer.  Q     I'm sorry?  A    After all the invited guests divided into various homes  to stay --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They are all in various homes and are honoured guests  there and are fed.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    And then everybody gets up and gets ready getting posts  or  whatever  they're going  to use to  raise the pole. 7  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They have poles ready that are crossed and once the tip  of the pole is raised then they start establishing these  cross poles  and as  it goes up they move it up, right up  until the pole is completely standing up.  They tie rope  on the tip of the pole, totem pole and it's set up that  they know how to untie that rope as it goes up further  and they just pull a certain string and it just comes  undone.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     That's all.  Q     Okay, you referred to a limx'ooy.  Can you tell us what  a limx'ooy is?  A     Whenever a Chief dies they use the limx'ooy in many  different ways.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     If it get -- it's a crying song, or a mourning song.  That' s all.  Q     You've described how the pole was raised, is this how it  was raised in T'elgamuux's pole raising,  the description  you gave of how they raised the pole and what was done,  is that what happened with T'elgamuux's pole?  A     That 's the way it was.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Every pole  raising that's the way it's done.  Q     And is that the way it was done in the old days before  the white men came?  A     Yes.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A      There was white people.  There was white people present  when T'elgamuux set his pole up.  MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry,  I didn't hear what Mrs. Sampson said?  MR. GRANT:  There was white people present when T'elgamuux set  up his pole.  Q     Do the Gitksan have traditional feasts for weddings.  A     I don't know anything about the wedding.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Once in awhile they do.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     When a princess is married or a prince they do.  Q     Did you attend any such weddings?  A     No.  Q     When you refer to a Prince or Princess, is this the son  or daughter of a Chief?  A(In English) Um-hmm.  Q     When the Gitksan marry can they marry -- are there certain  people certain relations that they cannot marry  traditionally? 8  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A     I don't know.  (Further response by Witness  to Interpreter) i  As long as you're not marrying in the same clan.  Q     Why can -- why can't the Gitksan marry into their own clan?  A     I don't know.  Q     Can you -- could you interpret the question for her?  A     If you have a child you cannot call your own family to do  the burial.  Q     And is it the father's or the mother's side who does a  burial?  A     The father's side, father's brother any member of his  family.  Q Okay. After a Gitksan marries a person of another clan,  can -- does she or he have any rights to use the territory of that other clan?  A     It's an Indian law that you do have a right like she  referred to me, I can go up to berry patch and pick  berries or I can go to a fishing ground and do my fish  there. This has all been the Indian law to oversee,  all Chiefs to oversee other members of in-laws.  MR. GOLDIE:  If that's not responsive to your question I  object to you leading.  MR.  GRANT:  Q     If I married,  if I was a Gitksan and I married your  daughter, would I have rights to hunt on Xhliimlaxha's  territory?  A     Yes.  Q Okay, and would your -- and if I was a Lax Seel or Frog  would your daughter have rights to hunt or pick berries  on the Frog territory?  A     Yes.  Q Okay. In the old days when the Chiefs wanted their children to marry, did they look for -- what kind of person  did they look for for their daughters to marry?  A     One of -- one of a testing way is to feel the palms of  the hands and if the hands are rough then the marriage  is okay.  She will be looked after.  Q     And in the old feasts, the feasts of Princes or Princesses  the Chiefs' sons and daughters, did their parents talk  about their hunting territories?  A     Yes.  Q     Did you or your parents attend any feasts on the Nass  River with the Nisga'?  A     We were at the Nass River when Chief Skat'iin died.  A(In English) In 1924.  A     In April we were there.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter) 9  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A     All our, all our months have names in Indian and April is  called --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Lasiya'a.  (Further response by Witness)  A     The first time they catch spring salmon.  MR. GRANT: That's spelled L-A-S-I-Y-A-'-A.  Skat'iin is spelled  S-K-A underline A, T-'-I-I-N-S (sic), or I-I-N, no s on it.  MR. GOLDIE:  That's the Nisga' Chief?  MR. GRANT: Tha 's the Nisga' Chief.  Q     Why were you on the Nass in April 1924?  A     Geel went down to get some oolichan grease for a feast.  Q     And this Geel is your father, is that correct?  A     That's my step-father.  Q     Your step-father. Did you and your step-father stay for  this  feast of Skat'iin?  A     We were -- we were there at the time they were preparing  for oolichan grease and there was a feast hall right at  the site.  Q     Do you  remember what clan Skat'iin was in?  A     Four clans. Lax Xskiik.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Skat'iin was a Lax Xskiigim Lax Gibuu and so they were  seated.  Q     Is Lax Xskiik eagle?  A     Lax Gibuu.  Q     Oh,  it's Lax Gibuu?  A     Yeah.  Q     Okay, did your mother attend that feast?  A     Yes, she was seated.  Q     Can you -- was that feast different than the Gitksan  feasts?  A     Their ways are way different.  Q     Can you tell us a few of the things that were different  at that feast from the Gitksan feasts?  MR. GOLDIE:  Had she said she was seated?  MR. GRANT:   Yes, she has.  A     Skat'iin died. He has lots of children and his -- I'm  repeating myself.  Skat'iin died, he has lots of children.  His children have lots of children.  (Further  response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The casket was there and his brother's children and their  children  came.  (Further  response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They  brought in paper and boat, boat called, this is  called K'otsgesxw, haircut.  MR. GRANT:   It's for the record, it's G-O-T-S-K-E-S-X-W  (sic)  with  the G and the K underlined. 10  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    Go ahead Mrs. Brown?  A    There is a lot of children and when they put it on the  casket it covered it.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    This is what whoever is taking the Chief's name, that's  what he uses.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    This goes with the expense as to paying the casket and  other expenses involved.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    They didn't give us any food on our table.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    They gave us bags and explained to us what to do and we  just stood there with open bags on each side and there  was quite a lineup right to the door.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     After they distribute the money this is what they do as  people are leaving.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    They do much the same as we do here, other villages are  invited.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    Their ways are a little bit different  from ours.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    There was some type of machine gun that was used.  Before the casket is taken out of the house three shots  Q    Is that all?  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    Yes.  MR. GRANT:   Okay.  We'll take five minutes break now for the  video and reporter to have a break.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT CONTINUING:  Q    Does -- have you ever heard  an ada'ox performed for  Xhliimlaxha or told?  A    At every gathering they usually explain what they mean  by ada'ox.  Q    Could you tell me what ada'ox is?  A    I'm beginning  to forget everything.  MR. GRANT: Ada'ox is spelled A-D-A-'-O-X. (sic)  MR. GOLDIE: It's not the same then as what is found in Paragraph 55(h) of the Statement of Claim? 11  BROWN , M .  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR. GRANT:  Yes, that's just a different spelling.  MR. GOLDIE:  Would you give me what you're now spelling it as,  A-D-A --  MR. GRANT:   '-0-X.  MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Q     Did Edward Sexsmith ever tell the ada'ox at a feast?  A     No.  Q     Is there an ada'ox about T'emlaxamit?  A     There is a telling like a history story, history, yes  history.  (Further response by Witness  to Interpreter)  A     They wanted to tell how the native people first came when  they -- when they realized where --  (Further response by Witness  to Interpreter)  A     Where they originated from.  Q     Where did Xhliimlaxha originate from?  A     From T'emlaxamit  MR. GOLDIE: What was the answer,  from T'emla --  MR. GRANT: T'emlaxami t.  A     From T'emlaxamit.  MR. GOLDIE:  Is she going to translate that?  MR. GRANT: That's the name of a place , I'll go on.  Q     Can you tell us where T'emlaxamit  is or was?  A There is a place called Gitsegyukla and Skeena River run  and then there's a place called Gitanmaaxs and about half  way between where T'emlaxamit is.  Q     Was T'emlaxamit on the same side of the river as Gitsegyukla or the other side?  A     On the other side of the river.  Q      Can you tell the history of what happened at T'emlaxamit  and why Xhliimlaxha left T'emlaxamit?  A     I told the other day when they caught a spring salmon  and --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  THE INTERPRETER:  How far did I get?  (COURT REPORTER READ BACK LAST ANSWER)  A     And fixed what they call grap -- Gepkasxw which is a  certain place to fish where they've --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Where they've set out traps to catch the fish using poles.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They caught a salmon, one salmon was caught by one household.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They cooked the fish, cut, up into small pieces and --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter) 12  BROWN , M  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A        Xhlaxws  where it ' s put on long sticks  and skewers.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They heated up some rocks and put it in their box to  cook  the     fish.        That's  what  they     used.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They fixed a wooden bowl.  This is where they put the  fish in.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They gave it to a child to give out.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Into each household.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The young child looked up and saw a black --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    A black day.  A (In English) A black cloud.  A      A black cloud, on a -- as he was going on another trip  to give out the fish.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The young child held up the bowl  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     And asked why does it look like it's gonna snow.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The next day it started snowing.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     This is why all the Indian people first separated.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     There was a certain man named Ya'il, after he would  murder he would run away up to Kispiox.  MR.  GRANT:  That Spelling is Y-A-'-I-L.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     That's why some people went up to Kispiox.  Ya'il knew  it' s a good spot for fishing.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter.  A     That's why Kispiox existed where people live in Kispiox.  (Discussion   regarding previous response)  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They -- there is about six areas where people separated  to:   Kitwancool, Kitwanga, Gitanmaaxs, Gitsegyukla, and  Kispiox.  All these people came from T'emlaxamit.  Could Mrs. Sampson give us those names again please ?  Kitwancool.  Yes?  Kitwanga, Gitsegyukla, Gitanmaaxs.  Just hold on one second, yes?  Kitwancool, Kitwanga, Gitsegyukla, Gitanmaaxs,  MR.  GOLDIE:  MR.  GRANT:  MR.  GOLDIE:  MR.  GRANT  :  MR.  GOLDIE:  MR.  GRANT  :  Kispiox 13  BROWN , M  In Chief  Mr. Grant  (Further response by Witness  to Interpreter) A  They got two troubles in T'emlaxamit  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A      -- one when the sheep, mountain goat  sheep invited them  and a lot of people died.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    A lot of people died, one person --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Baxtxoomixs survived, only one came back.  MR. GOLDIE: Excuse me. Is the phrase mountain goats,  sheeps  referring to animals or a clan?  THE INTERPRETER:  Animals.  MR.  GOLDIE:  Animals?  THE INTERPRETER:  Animals.  MR. GOLDIE: And her answer was one place where mountain goats  or sheep invited them and a lot of people died?  THE INTERPRETER: Right.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     There was a reason why there was one survivor,  some  people climbed --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Rocher. Today we know it as Rocher De Boule.  They climb  there hunting goats.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Goats, yes.  MR.  GRANT:  Q     Just to -- if I can just interrupt for a moment.  Is  there, the Indian name for Rocher De Boule Stekyoodenhl?  A (In English) Um-hmm.  Q     And that is the mountain that is near Hazelton,  is that  correct?  A     Yes.  Q     Go on then, please?  A     The young man caught a young goat in Indian called Wekx  and put a red mark around its neck.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     This was why he was saved. The young goat saved him by  putting him behind him when the rest just rolled down the  mountainside.  Q     Can you, you in describing this history of the mountain  goats, can you describe what happenned from the beginning  when the mountain goats --or did the mountain goats come  down to the people, or did the people go up to the mountain goats? Could you just tell that history from the  beginning?  A     Just like our tradition there were messengers who came.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter) 14  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A     I have a grandson named Trent.  I tell him what he should  do.  The young boy went out and noted that the messenger  weren't eating, they didn't eat the same food.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The young boy noted that the messengers would lay down  amongst the grass and they were eating the grass behind  the house, the homes.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     There were some elders who didn't let some of the children go. When the sheeps had their feast that's why the  children regenerated.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The young sheep that saved --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Baxtxoomixs, the sheep brought him back carrying him on  his  back  and every time  the sheep  jumped Baxtxoomixs  is to repeat--  (Further response by Witness to  Interpreter) A  You will note up the mountain pointed rocks where the  sheep will land each time he jumps.  Those rocks are  called Wilsamoosxw.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The end.  Q     You mentioned the messengers, did they come to T'emlaxamit  these messengers?  A     Yes.  Q     And did they take the people other than the old people  and the children somewhere with them?  A     They came and invited the people just the same as the  feasts we have here invite people to a feast.  Q     And was that feast on the mountain?  MR. GOLDIE:  That' s what she said.  A     The people didn't know they were up the mountain because  to them it  was just flat land.  MR.  GRANT:  Q     And how did the people die, the people from T'emlaxamit?  A     They rolled off the mountain and got killed.  (Further response  by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Up in Rocher De Boule blood just ran down the mountainside.  The mountain is very slant and there's another rock coming down and that's where they all rolled down and blood  just ran down because they were all killed.  Q     Do you know why this happened to the peopl of T'emlaxamit?  A     They made fun of the sheep, mountain sheep.  This is why  our Indian laws never make fun of animals.  Q        You said earlier  that Xhliimlaxha was at T'emlaxamit  were other Chiefs  of the Wolf clan at T'emlaxamit?  A     Everybody  lived in the same place. 15  BROWN ,  M  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    Okay. And were Chiefs of the Fireweed clan there as well? A  Yes.  Q    And of the Frog clan?  A    Yes.  Q    This history of the mountain goat, is this what you call  an ada'ox?  A (In English)  Um-hmm.  A    Yes.  Q    And the history of the snow,  is that what you call an  ada'ox?  A(In English)  Um-hmm.  Q    Okay, what time of year was it that the snow fell?  A (In English)  You dumb Indian.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A (In English) June.  A    June.  A(In English)  You're an Indian, you're supposed to know a little  bit.  Q    Did -- you described that the people of T'emlaxamit went  to all of these other places.  Which of these places did  Xhliimlaxha go to?  A    Kispiox, and Anspayaxw.  MR. GRANT:  A-N-S-P-A-Y-A-X-W.  Q    And that's another name for Kispiox, isn't it?  A    Anspayaxw is what the Indian people call it. The white  people called it Kispiox.  Q    These ada'ox that you've described of T'emlaxamit,  did  they really happen?  A    It's a true history.  Whatever happens to, to the old  Indian people it's told and passed on what today is  called generation from generation.  Q    And who taught you or told you these histories of your  people?  A    Great --  A(In English)  My mom called it na'a, that's how an Indian  called it.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    Grandmother is ts'iits, na'a is mother.  Q    Okay, and who --  A    Oh --  Q    Which one told you, who taught you those?  A    Both.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    Great-grandmother.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    One great-grandmother.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter) 16  BROWN,  M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  Q  A  A (In  And my grandmother.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  We worked for the late Charlie Sterritt and  told us this history about Rocher De Boule.  GOLDIE:  What was that name again?  GRANT:  Charlie Sterritt S-T-E-R-R-I-T-T.  GOLDIE:  Yes,  I know.  GRANT:  Are there crests that go with the history of  goat?  I'll just ask her to repeat.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  Almost choked.  English)  I put my coffee in my mouth.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  he always  the mountain  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR.  Q  A  A  A (In  Q  A (In  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  Antgulilibiksxw had  (Further response by  Antgulilibiksxw has  (Further response by  Gilasgaltxw where a  (Further response by  But none  And thi s  Interpreter)  a crest.  Witness to  a crest.  Witness to Interpreter)  sheep stands with one horn.  Witness to Interpreter)  on the totem pole,  crest of this one-horned goat is from the his-  that correct?  tory that you have just told us,  is it?  It may have been because of the way it is.  Okay, the Gitksan word for crest is ayuks, is  Yes.  GRANT:  That'S A-Y-U-K-S.  Does the house of Xhliimlaxha  have ayuks?  All I know is Wilnagak which is a hole in the front of a  and a bear sitting on top of a totem pole and wolf.  What does Wilnagak, that's W-I-L-N-A-G-A-K (sic)  house  Okay,  mean?  I don'  ; know.  English)  I don't know.  Was -- you -- you mentioned  Wilnagak?  English) Uh-huh.  GRANT: It's already answered,  GOLDIE:  Is that what she --  that you have a crest called  I spelled her answer,  is that the answer that she  started off with the words all I know is the hole in  front of the house, bear sitting on a totem pole, is that-  GRANT : That's right.  GOLDIE:  That's her crest?  GRANT : Yes.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  She -- I'm not really clear the exact crest Wilnagak.  There is a crest in, in front of a house they use 17  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  when they hold a big feast.  Q     How did they use the crest then at the big feast?  A    A Chief puts on a blanket --  (Further response by Witness to  A    And climbs up a ladder.  (Further response by Witness to  A     And when -- and climbs through  (Further response by Witness to  A     They call out names of the Chiefs.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     As the Chiefs arrive they call out their names.  One  person shows them which way to go as he goes through the  hole, wilnagak.  Q     Is this hole high up in the wall of the house?  A     Just above a door.  The doors they have long ago just  hangs, not like our doors today.  Wilnagak situated right  A  Q  A  MR  MR  Interpreter)  Interpreter)  the hole.  Interpreter)  above the door. Q  you see the house of Xhliimlaxha with this door, with  this hole above the door?  A     Yes.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     I -- I saw it and also saw the picture that was shown  me.  Q     Okay, and was this --oh sorry, go ahead.  to answer some more?  No. That's just enough.  house in Kispiox village?  Did  to  Does she want  Was this  Yes.  RUSH:  GRANT:  Show it to Mike first.  d like to  well, and  Q     I 'm  show  can you look at  going to show you a picture which I  so that it's on the camera as  that picture and if you can see the house of Xhliimlaxha  with the wilnagak in it , could you point it out?  A     My glasses aren't very good.  Q     Take your time.  A     I can't see.  MR. GRANT:  Can we go off the record for a moment.  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  A     I thought I saw it.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     House of Gwilaxhan.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    All the houses are standing pretty close.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter) 18  BROWN  M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q     Can you turn it around now and you can explain her answer.  A     The first house belongs to Dogoges.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A      The second house is Gwilaxhan,  Xhliimlaxha,   Gutgwinuxs.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Oh, there is still one more house, the second one is  Guluuhlametxwt .  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Niiyestaxhuuk is before Guluuhlametxwt.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Geel owns one house.  After a while they had their own  house as they eventually got some lumber to build their  own houses.  MR. GRANT: For the record when the description was given by  the translator she went from the picture which I will  mark as an exhibit, from the right-hand side of the picture as you're facing it, that is to the first house she  described was the one in the foreground and moved along  the row of houses to the one in the background.  Possibly we could mark that as Exhibit 1.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right, go ahead.  EXHIBIT 1 - Photograph  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  MR. GRANT: For the record Martha I'm explaining that we have  put a piece of tape below the house that you have identified as the house of Xhliimlaxha and this was done at  the request of Mr. Goldie to mark out that house, which  for the  record, is the third house  from the  -- from the  right-hand side of the picture as you look at the picture.  Now, I would like you to point if you could to the wilnagak in that house if there is one there, if you can see  it?  A     She can't really see it.  Q     Okay.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     That's why I get mad at Dr. Jory, he doesn't want to  change my glasses.  Q     How old were you when you saw these houses?  A     That' s why I grew up in Kispiox.  A     We used to play inside the house mom used to use as a  barn.  (Further response by Witness to  Interpreter) A  You know how children are.  We climb around and we'll 19  BROWN , M .  In Chief  Mr. Grant  jump off from on top.  Q    Do you know when this picture was taken?  A    No.  MR. GOLDIE:  Or who took it?  MR. GRANT:  Just give me a moment, please.  Q    Do you know who took that picture?  A(In English)  No.  A      No.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     I was too crazy.  I didn't know how pictures were taken  then.  Q     Does that picture show that house as you remember it,  when you were young?  A     The picture there is very good. Where we were was pretty  old. The roofing already had holes.  Q     Okay.  So I take it that that picture looks like it was  taken before your time,  is that right?  A (In English) Um-hmm.  A     Yes.  Q     Aside from the wilnagak, does your house, does Xhliimlaxha  have a crest of a bear?  A     It's sitting on the totem pole.  Q     And does your house have a crest of a wolf?  A    All the -- I'll ask her to repeat.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    All the Chiefs do have crests and keep them in their  houses.  MR. GRANT: We'll adjourn now and if it's all right with you  Martha we'll take an hour and five minutes for lunch and  come back after lunch.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT CONTINUING:  Q    Did the Xhliimlaxha Chiefs in the old days use blankets  or amhalayt, leggings I'm sorry, blankets amhalayt and  leggings in the feasts?  A    They wear them while they still have them.  Q    Is there a person that you are arranging to have a blanket made for yourself?  A    I asked Clara Harris to make my blanket.  Q    And is she from a different clan?  A    I was brought up by Geel. That' s why Clara Harris is  making my blanket.  Q    Is Clara Harris the mother of the  present day Geel? 20  BROWN M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A    Walter is Clara's mother.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    Walter is Geel now.  Q    And Clara is his mother?  A    Right.  Q    And what is Clara's relationship to Walter Geel who  brought you up?  A    Clara's grandfather.  Q    We have made reference in the last day of evidence to  territory of Xhliimlaxha.  Who has authority over  Xhliimlaxha's  territory?  (THE Interpreter)  I don't know what she said.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Whoever knows the territory.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     There is one person who usually knows the territory and  is the one who will speak about the territory, whoever  owns it.  Q     They will speak about the territory at the feast?  A     They don't usually discuss it in the feast.  Q     Who owns the territory of the house of Xhliimlaxha?  A(In English)  Xhliimlaxha.  A     Xhl i iml axha .  Q     Is that the way it was when Paul Xhliimlaxha was Chief?  A     Yes.  Q     Is it the way it is today?  A     It's the same today until such time the family of Xhliimlaxha either extincts but will probably, but will go on  to another family.  Q     I'm sorry, the family of Xhliimlaxha will, you mean die  Out is what she said?  A     Yes.  Q     Are there young people in the house of Xhliimlaxha today  A     Too many.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     There are about twenty.  (Interpreter questions Witness further)  A (In English) Twenty.  A     Twenty young people.  Most of them don't pack up their  blankets and go.  Today they just jump in their cars and  go to Smithers.  Q     When you were young, did you go to the territory of Geel?  A     I went there.  For about eight years I went back and forth.  Q     How old were you then when you wer going there?  A     I was twelve years old when we first went up, up until I  was about nineteen.  And I've never gone.  Q     Okay, why did you stop going to Geel's territory? 21  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A     Geel died.  Q     When you went up to his territory, what did you do there?  A     We dried meat there, caribou, groundhog and beaver.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     If they find a goat they will kill it.  Q     Was Geel's territory close to one of Xhliimlaxha's  territories?  A     Side by side.  Q     And where were these -- were these territories at the  headwaters of the Skeena River?  A     There's a fork at the head of the Skeena.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     There is a fork. One of the Skeena runs in between and  on the other side is Geel's territory.  Q     Um-hmm. And on -- and is Xhliimlaxha's territory on the  other side of that fork from Geel's?  A (In English) Um-hmm.  A     Yes.  Q     Do you know the boundary of some of the landmarks of  Xhliimlaxha's territory at the headwaters of the Skeena  in this area?  A     Their line is a place called Wiluuskihlanmalgwa.  Q     The spelling is W-I-L-L-U-S-K-I-H-L-A-N-M-A-L-G-W-A (sic).  MR. GOLDIE:  Is there a translation for that or an English name  for that?  MR.  GRANT:  Q     Excuse us.  Is that a word meaning boundary?  A     No.  Q     That is a particular place?  A     That's a particular place.  Q     Do you know what that name means?  A     They used to cremate bodies there a long time ago. This  is why they named the place, the old people call it --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Ts'imt'iim.  MR. GOLDIE:  Is that going to be spelled?  MR. GRANT:  Yes, I'll get the spelling. T-S-'-I-M-T-'-I-I-M for  the record.  Q     Do you know how Xhliimlaxha obtained this territory at the  --up near the headwaters of the Skeena?  MR. GOLDIE:  Mr. Grant, are you going to ask her if there are  any English names that we can use as identification  points?  MR.  GRANT:  Um --  MR. GOLDIE: Does she know of any?  MR. GRANT :  I would come back to that but I'll deal with this  first. Okay, could you read my question to the  Interpreter. 22  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  (Court        Reporter    reads        back    question)  A    Xsiisxw is a word significant to a settlement by the  Stikine.  A (In English)  Stikine.  A     Stikine, who killed Xhliimlaxha.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Just a minute, let me start over again. Xsiisxw is a  settlement to Xhliimlaxha from way back. She doesn't  know even who he was or what he looked like but his sister  was killed by Stikine.  A (In English)  Um-hmm.  A     And the settlement for killing that sister, that territory was given to him.  MR. GRANT: Xsiisxw for the record is T-S-I-I-S-X-W  (sic).  Q     Could you tell us what happened to the sister of this old  Xhliimlaxha when the Stikine people killed her?  A     They were hunting groundhogs when it happened.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They were fixing groundhog to eat. The woman was married  to the Stikine side.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     There may have been jealousy. That's why the man killed  her.  Q     Where did they put her after they killed her?  A     He stuck her -- stuck her in a groundhog hole with a  child still on her back.  Q     And what did Xhliimlaxha' s people do then?  A     They found out about her at the time. They never went  to take it. The Stikine people themselves burned it.  Q     When you're referring to it, you're referring to,  is this  the body?  THE INTERPRETER:  Right.  Q     Okay, and what happened, what did the Stikine people do  after that?  A    About five years later they --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They came out, the Stikine people came out to a place  called Xsa'angexhlast and this is where they turned the  territory to -- over to Xhliimlaxha.  MR. GRANT: That last place is spelled X-S-A one word A-N  second word G-E-H-L-A-S third word underline the G (sic)  Q     Can you tell us where this place was in relation to anything that is at that location today, Where the Stikine  people came?  A     Xsa'angexhlast is the place your're talking about?  Q     Yes, Xsa'angexhlast?  A     It's still at the same place. 23  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q      Is there  -- is this in the Kispiox Valley?  Yes.  Q     Okay. What happened when the Stikine people there came  to Xsa'angexhlast?  A     Kispiox people are on -- live on one side and what's the  name?  Q     stikine?  A     Which name,  let me start over again.  Stikine people  are on one side, and Kispiox people are on the other side.  MR.  GOLDIE:  Of what?  MR. GRANT: Just give her a chance.  MR.  GOLDIE:  Okay.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     After they were organized and then a person came carrying  the peace feathers.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The person came with peace feathers in the left hand and  a short gun on the right hand, a short gun.  Q     Was this person a Stikine?  A     Yes.  Q     Okay, and what did he do?  A     He placed the peace feathers on Xhliimlaxha's  head.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     If Xhliimlaxha brushes off the peace feathers off his  head, he will be shot.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The person stood for sometime waiting to see what would  happen.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The person who carried the peace feathers stood and  started hollering and then the Stikine Chief came.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     And then the --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Then the Chief of the Stikine spoke.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     He didn't just speak but he shouted out for everyone to  hear that Malii rose again and Malii is the ownership of  the territory.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Miinhlaxmihl.  MR. GRANT:  That last name is spelled M-I-I-N-H-L-A-X-M-I-H-L.  Malii is spelled M-A-L-E-E (sic).  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    And then they start a feast just like a regular feast.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     The Stikine people held a feast the following day the 24  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Kispiox people held the feast.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    The Stikine people sang songs to them.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    The songs are called limx xsiisxw.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    She might be able to sing part of it.  (Martha Brown sings song)  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    After the Stikine sang the song he took off his name and  it went with the territory.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    The name is  A(In English)  Malii.  A    Malii.  That's where the Malii name came to.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    That's all.  Q    You said that the name Malii was given.  Then is Malii  related to Xhliimlaxha?  A    He was Lax Gibuu clan. Whatever happened, whatever the  reason for killing. MR. GRANT:  Okay, that's L-A-X one word, G-I-B-U-U second word  (sic) .  Q    Has Xhliimlaxha held this territory since that happened?  A    He -- from then on he was the holder of that land and  every winter strong people would go up there. That's it  Q    This xsiisxw you described, did that happen before the  white men came?  A    Way before white people existed they do xsiisxw.  Q    And -- did she ever remember him I'm talking about the  xsiisxw, eh?  A    It may have been before.  That's why her mother said that  was before Tomlinson arrived father of Robert Tomlinson.  Q    Can you describe any of the landmarks on this northern  territory of Xhliimlaxha, I mean give the names of them?  A    I'm not really certain of the names up in that territory.  I know Geel's territory better.  MR. GOLDIE:  Which territory?  MR. GRANT:   Geel'S.  Q    Does that territory itself have a name in Indian?  A    That's what they call it Miinhlaxmihl up to as far as a  place called Anmalgwa.  MR. GOLDIE:  Is there an English name for that?  MR. GRANT:  She's given the Indian name of the territory.  MR. GOLDIE:  No, she said a place called.  MR. GRANT:  Yes. I'm going to get the spelling on that and then  I'll go back to that.  Q    You've  described Anmalgwa as a burial place earlier, is 25 BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  that the same place?  A (In English) Uh-huh.  Q     Do you know of any names that non-Indians have put on  that place where Anmalgwa is?  A     No.  Q     This -- the territory of Geel that is right beside this  territory, do you know of the names on that territory?  A     Yes.  Q     Could you tell us the names of some of the places on  Geel's territory?  A     There is a lake --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     There is a lake they called it Laxgohlii.  A (In English) Um-hmm.  A     Where steelhead are in --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    Almost similar to across the river here there's a place  where it's really beautiful and at the end of that mountain they call --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Gaxstangee.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Stikine word is Gaxstangee Gitksan called it Wilniixhlo'-  osganuugas, set in a trap in English.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     If you know what a snare is, they use for rabbits, that's  what they're referring to Wilniixhlo'osganuugas.  MR. GRANT: We'll take a brief adjournment, they have to change  the tape.  So we'll go off the record.  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  MR. GRANT: For the record the name of the lake that Martha  referred to with the steelhead is spelled L-A-X-G-0-H-L-  I-I  (sic) and the other name of the other location in  Geel's territory is spelled W-I-L-N-I-I-X-H-L-L-O-'-0-S-  underlined, A-N-U-U-G underlined A-S (sic).  Q     Do you know --  MR. GOLDIE:  Mr. Grant, before you start, just so we have it  somewhere in the record perhaps you would state how you  arrive at those names, that is to say it's Ms. Marsden's-  MR. GRANT: Yes, okay. For the record I'm using the assistance  of Ms. Marsden who is writing down phonetically the names 26  BROWN,  M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  that are given in Gitksan. And I am using those spellings  so that there will be some record of a standardized  spelling to the extent possible with an oral language.  MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  It ' s based on the Rigsby dictionary of the Gitksan  language, linguistics I would say.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT CONTINUING:  Q     Are there any other names of places in Geel's territory  that you can recall at this time?  A    Another lake is situated there.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Where the geese migrate.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     It's a beautiful land.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Beautiful along the shores of the lake.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     You will -- you might picture a hill where the lake runs  off.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    Along the hillside there is three rows of nests of geese  which is probably the geese sitting.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     We've been there several times and excuse me.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     There's lots of blueberries there.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     I can't remember what the Stikine named the lake.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A      There's no -- there's no name in Gitksan there.   I don't  know why they didn't give it a name.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     I can't remember the name.  Q     In -- how far from where we are now at Glen Vowell or  Kispiox Village, do you know how far north or how many  days of travel it would take to go to Geel' s territory?  A (In English) About ten days.  Q     And was that walking?  A (In English)  Um-hmm.  Q     Okay.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     We used eight horses.  Q     So it was ten days by horseback?  A (In English)  Uh-huh.  Q     When I talk about the old telegraph line and first cabin  and second cabin, you know what I'm referring to? 27  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A     (No response).  Q     Was there any of the telegraph cabins on Geel or Xhliimlaxha's northern territory?  A        There's only a short distance on -- on the territory  where the line goes through, Laxtuuts was telegraph line.  Q     Is there a cabin in that distance?  A     About the eighth cabin on the telegraph line where Xhliimlaxha' s road turns off,  she's not really sure.  Q     Do you know if the white people gave names to any of the  lakes that you've described in Geel's territory?  A (In English)  I don't think so.  Q     Okay. North of Xhliimlaxha's territory,  if you went  past  that territory whose territory would be there?  A (In English) Stikine.  Q     Okay, you said on one side was Geel's territory, you said  they were side by side?  A (In English) Um-hmm.  Q     Whose territory is south of Xhliimlaxha's territory in  the north?  A     David Williams mentioned a name Sanoos but she's not sure.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They called him by his Gitksan name but she forgot.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They travelled together, Alfred Sanoos, I forgot the  other name she mentioned.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Charlie Sampson. They all travelled together and then  they each have their own road where they turn off and  Xhliimlaxha keeps on going.  Q Okay, is this road a trail?  A On the telegraph line road.  Q     Okay. Do you know whose territory is beside Xhliimlaxha's  on the other side from Geel's territory?  A     That's all the territories that Geel and Xhliimlaxha own  up north. It may be that one of Geel' s family have been  killed by Stikine.  Otherwise the rest of the territory  belongs to Stikine.  Q     Is there a -- does Xhliimlaxha have another territory  that's closer to Kispiox?  A     There's a territory, berry picking up the Kispiox Valley  Q     Okay.  If you started at the part of the territory  closest to where we are in Glen Vowell, where does it  start in the Kispiox Valley?  A     On the other side of Xsa'angexhlast.  MR. GRANT:   That's  spelled X-S-A-'-A-N-G-E-H-L-A-S   (sic).  Q     Does your territory include what is now Kispiox Village?  A     No. 28  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  by Witness  'anseegit.  by Witness  to  to  (Further response by Witness  It comes as far as a place called  and goes up to as far as --  (Further response by Witness  Xsimiinhlhalskiit.  (Further response  It goes up to Xsa  (Further response  Xsitsihl'niit'in.  (Further response  Xsa'anxiiya.  (Further response  Wilsada'uhlts'ap.  (Further response  Wiluuskeexwt.  (Further response  And Wiluuskihl Genim  (Further response by  Miinhlgwogoot.  (Further response by Witness to  And Wilnastatxs.  (Further response  to Interpreter)  Wilgisim'niit'ahlhak  to Interpreter)  Interpreter)  by  by  by  by  Witness to  Witness to  Witness to  Witness  Maadim.  Witness  to  to  Interpreter)  Interpreter)  Interpreter)  Interpreter)  Interpreter)  Interpreter)  Interpreter)  A  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  Q  A (In  A  Q  A (In  Q  A  Q  A (In  A  by Witness  That's as far as the line goes  Wilnastatxs.  (Further response by  On the other side of  (Further response by  Yagosip.  to Interpreter)  of Xhliimlaxhas,  Witness to Interpreter)  that belongs to Will  Witness to Interpreter)  What was the last name?  Yagosip.  Spelled Y-A-G-A-W-S-I-P  Is that another Gitksan?  This is another Chief,  this Yagosip is another Gitksan Chief?  Uh-huh.  GOLDIE:  GRANT:  Yagosip.  Spelled Y-A-G-A-W-S-I-P  (sic)  GOLDIE:  GRANT:  Did  English)  Yes.  Now,  is this territory between the Kispiox River and the  Skeena River?  English)  It's up in the Kispiox River.  Does the Kispiox River form one of the boundaries of this  territory?  Yes, nodding.  And does the Skeena River form another boundary of this  territory?  At Marty Allen's Lake called today there is a mountain.  At the top of the mountain there is a peak --  English) No really mountain,  just a hill.  Just a hill.  You go up as far as the top of that hill,  you don't go past on the other side, that's the boundary. 29  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    Okay, and you're referring to Marty Allen's place, this  is a farm that is in the Kispiox Valley,  is that right?  A    The Gitksan name for this lake is T'amgwihlaltxwt.  After  George Biernes died, they called it Mary Allen Lake.      Q  When you were young, who lived on this territory that you  have just described?  A    We go back and forth there with grandmother.  Early in  the spring we go up there.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    Fishing for steelhead and white fish.  Q    And did you stay up there in the spring and the summer?  A(In English)  Uh-huh.  A    Yes.  A(In English)  Just couple of months.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    In the fall -- we picked berries, that's why we go up  there.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    All the fishing ground where they can driftnet, that's  where they dry steelhead and coho.  Q    Did Paul Xhliimlaxha live up there?  A    He used to live on the other side of Murder Creek across  Campbell's  place, that's where his house was located.  Q    And is that on the territory of Xhliimlaxha?  A    Yes.  He owns the territory, that's why he's there.  Indian laws are you don't go on anybody else's territory.  Q    I'm going to refer to some of the names you've given and  I apologize for my pronunciation because I would like you  to explain what those names mean. I don't know if my  friend objects to me leading on this or not.  MR. GOLDIE: No, I'm delighted to have you elucidate the point.  MR. GRANT: Wilnastatxs was one of the names, it's W-I-L-N-A-S-  T-A-T-X-S, does this mean the place of stinging nettles?  THE INTERPRETER:  Wilnastatxs is that what you said?  Q    Yes?  A    Right.  Q    Wiluuskihl  Genim Maadim?  Q    W-I-L-T-S-'   (sic) --  (Response  by Witness to Interpreter)  A    On the other side of --  (Further  response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    Miinhlgwogoot on down to --  (Further  response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    To Wiluuskihl Genim Maadim --  (Further  response by Witness to Interpreter)  THE INTERPRETER:  Just a minute here, are you asking for -- 30  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  MR. GRANT:  I'm asking for what it means and she -- I'm going to  spell these words for the record, okay?  THE INTERPRETER:  Okay.  MR. GRANT: So the Wiluuskihl Genim Maadim is W-I-L-T-S-'-A-G-  A-S-K-I-H-L, genim G-E-N-I-M second word, madim '-M-A-  D-I-M third word (sic) . Does that mean the place on the  river that is part of a winter trail on ice crossing?  A (In English)  Um-hmm.  A     Yes.  Q     In referring to that place you referred to another place  called Miinhlgwogoot M-I-N-H-L-G-W-0-G-0-0-T (sic). Does  that mean a place that is under a rock that looks like a  heart?  A (In English)  Um-hmm. On the other side of the Kispiox River.  MR. GOLDIE: You're batting a thousand, keep on going.  A (In English)  Just like a heart.  MR.  GRANT:  Q     That rock you're saying is on this side of the Kispiox  River?  A (In English)  On Marty Allen's side.  It's right in the corner  in that big field.  You can stand in Marty Allen's field  and you can see that rock.  There is a great big high on  and just like a heart it's sharp on top.  Q     That is one of the boundary markers of Xhliimlaxha' s  territory?  A (In English) Uh-huh.  Q     Okay.  You gave us another name called Wiluuskeexwt.  W-I-L-U-S-K-E-E-K underlined W-T (sic) .  Does this mean  the place where there is -- you cannot see the bottom of  the water in winter because it is so deep?  A (In English)  Um-hmm.  Q     And how is the fishing in that location?  A (In English)  Well we used to fish over there in the wintertime  and early in spring around March.  Have to look for a  long stick to put the rope on and they make it really  white because they couldn't see the bottom with it, too  deep.  Now, you can see the rocks over there while you're  walking on top of the hill, riverbank.  Q     Was there a lot of fish there when you fished there in  the old days?  A (In English)  Yeah. Used -- granny used to catch about three  hundred a night . They put a net underneath the ice and  catch three hundred.  Q     And what kind of fish were those?  A (In English)  Steelhead.  Q     Another name that you gave of a location is Xsitsihl'-  niit'in, X-S-A-X-U-T-S-I-H-L-'-N-I-I-T-I-N (sic). Does this 31  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  mean a place where the ice is thin?  A (In English) Um-hmm.  Q     And where is this place located in relation to the Hoben-  shield's farm today?  A     Right below their house.  Q     Okay, and was it called that because it did not freeze  there, the ice?  A     It freezes over but right about now as it gets colder the  old people used to see on top of the river almost like a  plastic. This is why they called it Xsitsihl' niit' in.  A (In  English) Um-hmm.  Q     Another place that you described on the boundary is  called Wilsada'uhlts'ap W-I-L-S-A-D-A-'-U-H-L-'-T-S-'-  A-P (sic) . Does this mean a hunting trap that was carried  away by the water?  A     Say that name again?  Q     Okay, I'll try.  Wilsada'uhlts'ap.  A     Oh, Wilsada'uhlts'ap, right.  Q     Right. Does that mean a hunting trap that was carried  away by the water?  A     Yes, that's where the trap was for the beaver is taken  away.  Q     Another place you described is Xsimiinhlhalskiit X-S-I-  M-I-I-N-H-L-H-A-L-S-G-I-I-T (sic) . Does this refer to a  creek that runs under the hill?  A     Will you say that name again?  Q     I think I'm going to pass it to you and just show you the  word, pass it on to her.  It's this word right here.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     It passes Murder Creek and goes by Xsimiinhlhalskiit.  Q     Okay, that's right and is there a Gitksan name for  Murder Creek?  A     That's the creek that is running by Marty Allen's.  Q     Okay.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Xsa'anseegit.  MR.  GRANT:   X-S-A-'-A-N-S-E-E-&-I-T (sic) for the record.  Q     And do you know why it 's called Murder Creek?  A     Old people were living there and they didn't have anything to eat so --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     And one person killed  them.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    And put the bodies in  the creek. That's why they called  it Xsa'anseegit  which is Murder Creek.  Q     Did that happen before the white men came?  A     It's maybe quite awhile before the white people came that 32  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  land was there.  Q     Another description of your boundaries that you gave us  was a place called Wilgisim'niit'ahlhak.    W-I-L-G-I-S-M  '-N-I-I-T-'-A-H-L last word H-A-K underline the K (sic).  Does that mean a place where the geese sit?  A (In English) Um-hmm.  A     Yes.  Q     Okay. Do you -- have you been to those places that you  have described to us?  A     Every spring we go up there and right up until Rayomond  Benson he was about eighteen, was about the last time we  were there and we stayed at a place called  Wilgisim'niit'ahlhak.  Q     And what did you do when you were up there?  A     Caught some trouts.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     We caught about over three hundred trouts.  Q     Is there a lake or the land that is now in Marty Allen's  where his farm is that was used by Paul Xhliimlaxha?  A     There is a lake up there where they --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They used the lake they set out the fish traps when there  is good trout fishing.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Henry Russel's mother named --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Xsiwiiyuun is what they called for twins.  Henry Russel's  mother had twins and she wasn't allowed to go by the  lake as this was one of the Indian rules about twins.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They don't allow anyone who has twins by the Skeena River.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     They don't allow anyone with twins as it's bad luck. One  year there was no fish because one with twins ate fish  from the river.  MR. GOLDIE:  One twin, ate?  MR. GRANT: One with twins she said.  MR. GOLDIE:  One with twins.  A     Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you. Did she know it then?  MR.  GRANT:  Q     Did the person who has twins, are they not allowed by the  river while they are carrying the twins while they're  pregnant or is it after the twins are born?  A     After the twins are born. They know they're twins and  they don't allow them.  Q     Okay.  And how long are they not allowed to go by the  river? 33 BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A    For about three years they don't go near the river.  Q    Okay. This woman who ate the fish by the river when she  had twins, was she punished for that or did she have to  hold a feast or do anything?  A (In English)  Nah.  A    No.  That's why the lake --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    That's  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    That's why the lake T'amgwihlaltxwt does not have a run  off.  It 's just dried up.  Q    That's spelled D-'-A-M-O-W-I-H-L-A-L-T-X-W-T (sic) and this  is the lake we were talking about earlier. That's now where  Marty Allen's farm is, is that right? You're nodding  affirmative?  A    Yes.  Q    Okay, and does that name T'amgwihlaltxwt mean a lake  that  is like a body lying down?  A(In English)   Uh-huh.  MR. GOLDIE:  That's the Marty Allen Lake.  That's the lake on  his property?  MR. GRANT:   Yeah.  Q    Does Xhliimlaxha hold fishing sites in the Skeena and  Kispiox River?  A    He holds fishing grounds up Kispiox and excuse me --  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    On the Skeena it's called T'a'oots'ip.  MR. GRANT:   That's T-A-'-0-T-S-'-I-P   (sic).  Q    Do members of your house use those fishing sites now?  A    We haven't been using it for some years.  Q    And why not?  A    No one --no one really listens to me.  I often wanted a  smokehouse built up there so I could live there but my  granchildren will not listen to me.  Q    Is this at T'a'oots'ip? Where is the place where you want  the smokehouse  at T'a'oots'ip?  A(In English)   T'a'oots'ip.  A    T'a'oots'ip.   That's Xhliimlaxha's fishing ground up the  Skeena.  A(In English)   I'm ready to sleep.  Q    Are you  getting quite tired?  A (In English)   Not really tired but I feel like go to sleep.  Q    Martha,  we have talked earlier about Limx'ooy L-I-M-'-  X-0- ' -X-Y  (sic) and you described it this morning as a  mourning song or a song sung at a funeral.  Does  Xhliimlaxha  have Limx'ooy?  A(In English)   Yeah. 34  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q     Do you still use that Limx'ooy?  A     We use it sometimes at a feast.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A    And we use it if a person dies.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     Before they move the casket.  (Further response by Witness to Interpreter)  A     I used it when Arthur died when I was so broken-hearted.  I was thinking of my parents.  Q     This was Arthur Sampson?  A     Yes.  Q     Would you mind singing the Limx'ooy  A (In English) Uh --  Q     Are you too tired?  A (In English) Yeah.  My throat is really  Q     Okay. Okay, we'll adjourn.  Can we go off the record.  now?  dry.  go off the  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  MR. GRANT: For the record Mrs. Brown you have told the Interpreter that your throat is dry from talking so much  today and so what we will do is we will adjourn this so  that it can be completed when you're feeling a little  better and there's not very much more to go.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED SINE DIE)  I hereby certify the foregoing is a  true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein, to the best of  my skill and ability:  Linda Malinowski  Official Court Reporter

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