Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of V. Giraud Vol. 3] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 1, 0001

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 1  INDEX  PART I - EVIDENCE PAGE  Witnesses for the defendants  GIRAUD, V. H. in-chief  by Ms.  Koenigsberg       63  cross-exam    by  Mr.    MacKenzie 64  cross-exam by Mr. Rush 82  PART II - EXHIBITS  No.     Description  3 9      Map of Smithers Area - 65  Indicating Driftwood Creek  40 Map No. 2 with Yellow Highlighting 72  41 Map Showing Red Rose Mine 78 63 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants;  in-chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 VICTOR HERBE GIRAUD, a witness called  2 on behalf of the defendant, after  3 having been previously sworn,  4 testifies as follows:  5  6 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KOENIGSBERG CONTINUED:  7 Q Mr. Giraud, we are on a continuation of your commission  8 evidence. You were sworn last time we were here and you  9 are still sworn to tell the truth?  10 A Yes.  11 Q You're still under oath:  12 A Yes.  13 Q The question that I had asked you when we broke last time  14 had to do with -- and I'll just repeat this, at least part  15 of the question -- was there any other agency or group of  16 people that you knew of who participated in supervising and  17 regulating the fisheries resource? Your answer was that  18 you thought you'd forgotten the name but you thought there  19 was such a group of people and that it was the Skeena River  20 Management Committee?  21 A That's right.  22 Q Then you were trying to remember something else about it:  23 A Hm hmm.  24 Q And we took the break --  25 A Hm hmm.  26 Q And do you recall anything further about that group of  27 people:  28 A Well, the Skeena Management Committee was made up mostly  2 9 of - - well, the scientists were made up from a research  30 board, Fisheries Research Board, and the headquarters in  31 Nanaimo, hey, and they did quite a bit of work in the  32 Skeena area. They had places -- had a place at Babine  33 Lake, and they did sockeye -- investigating the sockeye all  34 around Babine Lake and they ere more or less just a  35 scientific arm of the Department of Fisheries, hey? That's  36 the way they were acting, hey:  37 Q Do you recall any other participants in that committee  38 other than the Research Board?  39 A Well, there was -- there was some -- in the Management  40 Committee, were some fishermen involved. I know of two  41 gillnet fishermen who were involved there, representing the  42 gillnet people, and I don't know of any seiners though  43 because it's not really a sein area. I don't remember any  44 of them either.  45 e Okay. I have no other questions of you this morning, but I  46 think that Mr. MacKenzie --  47 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Did we agree that Mr. MacKenzie would go next? 64 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  in-chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 Q I think Mr. MacKenzie may have some questions of you.  2 A Okay.  3 Q Did you want to add something?  4 A There were people from the fisheries as well on that, hey,  5 and -- and -- oh, that's about all I meant. I missed that  6 part.  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  8  9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q I'd like to ask you some questions about your trapping  11 days.  12 A Okay.  13 Q And the first subject I wanted to ask you about was the  14 Driftwood Creek Trap Line. Now, you told us that in the  15 early 30's that you had a trap line on Driftwood Creek, is  16 that correct?  17 A Well, it was with a partner, Lou Gelley. The two of us  18 were on that, Gelley and myself.  I think this was  19 registered probably in his name, I'm not sure.  20 Q That's in Driftwood Creek?  21 A Driftwood Creek.  22 Q Near Smithers?  23 A Near Smithers. At the same time, we had a trap line over  24 Grouse Mountain and we used to go one week on one line and  25 take turns.  26 Q And the Grouse Mountain Trap Line was near Walcott,  27 W-A-L-C-0-T-T?  28 A That's right.  29 Q That's south of Smithers?  30 A Hm hmm.  31 Q I'm going to show you a map of the Smithers area with  32 Driftwood Creek on it. Smithers is -- I'm showing this  33 map -- Smithers is in the lower leffentre of that map.  34 Do you see Smithers there:  35 A Yes, I see Smithers there, yes.  36 Q Can you find Driftwood Creek on that map?  37 A I can see Driftwood Creek written there but I can't really  38 make out the creek itself. Yeah, I see that now.  39 Q You see Driftwood Creek running into the Bulkley River?  40 A Yeah.  41 Q And is that the area in which you had the trap line in the  42 30's?  43 A Yes, that's -- was one of the trap lines we had.  44 Q Yes. I'm giving you a red pen. Would you mark on the map  45 that you have the area generally where that Driftwood Creek  46 Trap Line was? You don't have to be specific, just your  47 general recollection. 65 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Let me just point out where it says,  2 "Driftwood Creek."  3 A I was trying to find where it started.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q Well, it starts in the Bulkley; it flows into the Bulkley  6 River.  7 A I know, but where our line started was well above the  8 Bulkley River, you see.  9 Q Yes?  10 A But I can't quite see -- it would have to be somewhere up  11 here where this line i..but I would think -- it would be  12 somewhere in there; I'm not quite sure.  13 Q Just mark it generally there in that area.  14 A It went up to the headwaters and it would be -- come down  15 somewhere in there. Now, I'm -- that's somewhere about  16 where it was, as near as I can make out.  17 MR. MACKENZIE: Can we mark that map as the next exhibit,  18 please?  19 A The Game Department would have that all exact but I  20 can't --  21 MR. MACKENZIE: So the next exhibit would be Exhibit 39.  22  23 (EXHIBIT 39: Map of Smithers Area - Indicating  24 Driftwood Creek)  25  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q Now, you said, that you trapped on that line with Mr.  28 Gelley, is that correct?  29 A Right.  30 Q DO you recall whether you were registered as the owner of  31 one of those trap lines?  32 A I -- I can't remember whether it was in my name or in Lou's  33 name. It had to be in one of our of names, I'm sure, but I  34 can't -- probably it was Gelley's. He did the work on it  3 5 anyway.  36 Q I beg your pardon?  37 A Probably it was Lou Gelley's because he was the one that  38 organized it, I think; I wasn't.  39 Q Do you recall whether you ever had a registered trap line  40 in your name?  41 A I don't know whether when we -- when we registered it,  42 like, on the Telegraph Trail,'.whether my name was on it or  43 just Gelley's; I'm not sure. I can't --  44 Q My instructions are that you were not registered on the  45 Yukon Telegraph Line --  46 A That's right.  47 Q -- but that you did have another registered trap line and 66 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 my question was whether that other trap line was the  2 Driftwood Creek area:  3 A Well, it could be. It's a long time ago. I don't know.  4 Maybe they weren't so particular those days as they are  5 today, but I don't remember.  6 Q DO you recall ever applying for a registration?  7 A No.  8 Q Do you recall who the game warden was in those days?  9 A Cecil Muirhead.  10 Q Did you know Mr. Muirhead?  11 A Yes.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Muirhead is, M-U-I-R-H-E-A-D.  13 Q At the the last examination on page 2, line 33 -- do you  14 have that in front of you there?  15 A Yes.  16 Q You mentioned there that you registered that trap line  17 and --  18 A Yeah';'.that should be Walcott area but --  19 Q Yes, we've got that. That's on line 33. You've got that,  20 "Grouse Mountain," -- that's a typographical error --  21 A Yeah.  22 Q -- and later on in that sentence you were speaking about  23 the Driftwood Creek Line. DO you see that:  24 A Hm hmm.  25 Q You mentioned there that you registered that trap line.  26 Does that assist you in recalling the registration?  2 7 A I don't know.  28 Q Okay, that's fine.  29 A Probably.  30 Q Do you recall whether it was the --it was necessary to  31 register trap lines in those days?.  32 A It was necessary, yes, I'm sure it was.  33 Q And how did you know at that time that it was necessary to  34 register trap lines?  35 A Well, you had the regulations, I guess, or the regulations  36 that you had to -- your trap lines had to be registered.  37 Q Do you recall knew the Driftwood Creek Line was  38 available before you started working there?  39 A I have a notion it was through the Fletcher brothers but  40 I'm not sure anyway.  41 Q You say that you recall and that you knew Cecil Muirhead,  42 is that correct?  43 A Yes, I knew Cecil Muirhead.  44 Q To your knowledge was he a fair man?  45 A I think so.  46 Q Did you have any dealings with him?  47 A Not except regular dealings. 67 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 Q Did you ever make fur returns or reports to him:  2 A I don't know whether I made them or whether Gelley made  3 them. You see, I'm not quite sure of that. I don't  4 remember making them anyway.  5 Q Do you recall that it was required to make fur reports?  6 A Oh, yes, I know you had to have -- you had to.  7 Q And what did that involve:  8 A But, I don't know; it was before the war. Things were a  9 little bit slacker than they were afterwards. Now, I don't  10 know what -- I know what we did -- it was done legally what  11 we did, I'm sure.  12 Q Do you recall to your knowledge whether Mr. Muirhead had  13 dealings with the Indians in the area who were trapping?  14 A Yes, he must have; he was the game warden. I imagine he  15 did have but I don't know anything -- any definite action  16 that he was taking. I know the odd time he took action  17 against the -- the Game Department, game regulations, but I  18 don't know -- actually, I don't know what his -- I  19 shouldn't -- I shouldn't guess at that when I,' you know, I  20 can't remember or it might be that I don't know.  21 Q Yes, I don't want you to guess.  22 A No, I don't want to either.  23 Q Is there anything else you can recall about Mr. Muirhead's  24 enforcement of the game regulations in those days?  25 A No, I can't say offhand anything special.  26 Now, speaking again -- it's still about the Driftwood Creek  27 Line -- you and Mr. Gelley didn't seek permission from the  28 Indians to trap on that line, did you?  29 A No.  30 MR. RUSH: That really suggests an answer, doesn't it?  31 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, it's a cross-examination; that's why.  I'm  32 sorry, you object to that?  33 MR. RUSH:  Yes, I do.  34 MR. MACKENZIE: Could we go off the record, please?  35  36   (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  37  38 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Rush and I have just had a brief  3 9 conversation and I advised him that I regarded this  40 examination as a cross-examination. DO you wish to add to  41 that?  42 MR. RUSH: No, I simply wanted to state that as long as it's  43 understood here that this is a cross-examination, you can  44 proceed with your line of questioning.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q Still speaking about the Driftwood Creek Line, during your  47 two years approximately trapping in that area, did you 68 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 receive any objections from the Indians in that region  2 about your trapping activities  3 A Not in the -- no, we did not.  4 Q Now, you mentioned the Fletcher brothers, and in your last  5 examination you mentioned Allan Fletcher's name. Do you  6 recall that?  7 A Pardon? I guess I did, yes, Fletcher.  8 Q Did you know Allan Fletcher?  9 A I knew him, yes.  10 Q Did you purchase the line from Allan Fletcher, do you  11 recall?  12 A I didn't make the deal myself. If it was done, it was done  13 through Gelley. No.  14 Q Now, still on the Driftwood Creek Line, the last time we  15 Rlet Ms. Koenigsberg asked you which animals you trapped on  16 the Yukon Telegraph Line and now I want to ask you about  17 the Driftwood Creek Line. Can you recall what type of fur  18 you were trapping out of the Driftwood Creek area?  19 A A few marten, a few mink, weasels, squirrels, is all we got  20 Out of that.  21 Q You didn't get any fisher out of that area:  22 A Pardon?  23 Q You didn't get any fisher?  24 A I don't remember fisher out of the Driftwood Line, no.  25 Q Any fox?  26 A I don't remember fox there either.  27 Q Any wolverine:  28 A Not out of that line.  29 Q Any beaver?  30 A No, we didn't trap beaver there.  31 Q Any muskrat?  32 A No, we didn't trap muskrats there.  33 Q Now, still speaking about the Driftwood Creek Line, do you  34 recall meeting any Indians during your trapping activity  35 along the Driftwood Creek Trap Line?  36 A No, I did not. I don't remember meeting any. I don't  37 think we did.  38 Q In those days were the Indians hunting in that area?  39 A I would say no. It was a -- a mountainous country and when  40 they went hunting, they went hunting on the burned-over  41 country where the moose and the deer -- that's where the  42 moose and deer -- they hunted for a living but they didn't  43 hunt in the Driftwood.  44 Q Your recollection is that the Indians hunted in those days  45 mostly moose and deer --  46 A Right.  47 Q --is that correct? Do you recall whether the Indians also 69 GIRAUD, V,H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 hunted in the Alpine areas for mountain goats or mountain  2 sheep:  3 A No, I don't recall.  4 Q still speaking about those years, do you recall whether  5 there were Indian trap lines in operation during those  6 years?  7 A I can't say offhand whether there was or there wasn't. It  8 seems to me there should have been but I don't remember.  9 Q So with respect to Driftwood Creek, do you recall whether  10 there were Indian trap lines in that immediate area?  11 A If there was, they weren't used while we were there.  12 Q To your knowledge, were the Indians actively trapping  13 during those years?  14 MR. RUSH: Whereabouts, in Driftwood Creek?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q In the Driftwood Creek area?  17 A You mean --in the Driftwood Creek area?  18 Q Yes?  .  19 A If they were -- I just said that if they were, not to my  20 knowledge.  21 Q Do you recall ever visiting Mr. Muirhead in his office in  22 Smithers?  23 A I imagine I would have. I can't remember offhand but I --  24 Q Was a game warden an important person in the Smithers area  25 in those days?  26 MR. RUSH: To this witness?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q To your knowledge:  29 A I think he was, yes.  30 Q Why would you say that he was an important person?  31 A Well, the resource manager as far as I know. He was  32 enforcing regulations on hunting, fishing and trapping.  33 Q DO you have any knowledge about how he was enforcing those  34 regulations or what activities he was engaging in?  35 A Not offhand.  36 Q Where were you living during those years that you were  37 trapping on the Driftwood Line:  38 A My home was Smithers.  39 Q Yes, and last time you told us about how you got up to the  40 Telegraph Line. How did you carry out your trapping in the  41 Driftwood area from Smithers:  42 A Would you repeat that? Clarify that. How did we --  43 Q How did you get to your trap line on the Driftwood:..  44 A We snowshoed in. Walked in, I suppose; snowshoed in.  45 Q Did you stay in Smithers and go up for the day or did you  46 live up on the line?  47 A While we were on that line, we stayed on that line and when 70 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 we were on the -- the same time we were on the other line,  2 when we were on that one, we stayed there.  3 Q The Walcott Line?  4 A Yeah, a week apart, a week between.  5 Q How long would you be out there on the line at a time?  6 A Oh, about a week on each one.  7 Q Would you go out from Smithers?  8 A Yes.  9 Q And then come back to Smithers?  10 A Yeah, yes.  11 Q Do you recall whether there were other white people doing  12 the same type of activity, going out on the trap lines from  13 Smithers?  14 A I can't offhand name any or think of any, no. There must  15 have been but --  16 Q Thank you. NoW I'd like to ask you some questions about  17 the trapping on the Yukon Telegraph Line. Were you  18 involved in the registration of that trap line$  19 A I was involved in the trapping there but whether I actually  20 signed anything when it was purchased, Lou Gelley made the  21 deal with Jim Hodder and whether my name was on that, on  22 the line or not, I don't know.  23 Q Were you aware whether Lou Gelley applied to be the  24 registered owner on that line?  25 A I'm sure he must have.  It had to be done.  26 Q Why do you say, "It had to be done?"  27 A Well, I think that was the regulation at the time, I'm  28 sure.  29 Q Was that your information at that time?  30 A Well, I think it was. All trap lines were registered, I  31 think. I'm not sure.  32 Q Are you aware when the trap lines were first registered?  33 A No, I'm not.  34 Q But as far as you can recall, when you were involved in  35 trapping it was necessary to register the lines:  36 A That's right.  37 Q And it was necessary to register the lines with the game  38 warden in Smithers:  39 A Right.  40 Q And it was necessary also to report on the fur taken each  41 year to the game warden?  42 A Right.  43 Q Now, I have another map here of the Slamgeesh,  44 S-L-A-M-G-E-E-S-H, River area from Canyon Creek north to  45 Damdochax Lake, D-A-M-D-0-C-H-A-X, and I'm putting that  46 before you. Now, do you see the Skeena River in the lower  47 right-hand corner of that map? 71 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 A Right.  2 Q Can you follow up the Slamgeesh River going up the  3 right-hand side of the map there past Shaslumat Creek,  4 S-H-A-S-L-U-M-A-T, up to Wiminosik Lake, W-I-M-I-N-O-S-I-K:  5 A Yes, yes.  6 Q And you see the old Telegraph Trail?  7 A That was the old Telegraph Trail, yes.  8 Q Was this the area in which you had the Yukon Trap Line with  9 Mr. Gelley:  10 A That's right, but we went further south than that.  11 Q Okay. Could you mark on this map that I've handed you,  12 please, with red, the boundaries just generally of the trap  13 line you were working with Mr. Gelley in those days:  14 A I'm kind of confused here somewhere. I wish I could see  15 the bottom part of that, see what the heck --  16 Q Just for the record, I've just taken a portion of this map  17 and expanded it and it doesn't have the whole area, of  18 course, of the Skeena and Kuldo area.  19 A It's pretty hard to -- it's pretty hard to -- let me see  20 that. Yeah, it's pretty hard to see there.  21 Q Well, let me say this; that you can see where the Slamgeesh  22 and the Skeena meet?  23 A Yes.  24 Q Can you start there and just show the part of the trap line  25 that would be included in this map?  26 A Well, it followed the Yukon Telegraph Trail, hey, and you  27 can see that, that Yukon Telegraph Trail, where it starts  28 here but it breaks off at the bottom end.  29 MR. MACKENZIE: Can we go off the record, please?  30  31  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  32  33 MR. MACKENZIE: Miss Koenigsberg has handed to Mr. Giraud a  34 larger map which goes up to the Kuldo area and shows from  35 the Moricetown region in the south up to the Kuldo region  36 in the north, but it does not extend north to the Slamgeesh  37 River. Mr. Giraud is now trying to put the Slamgeesh map  38 into context on the larger map.  39 Q Now, Mr. Giraud, does that larger map that Miss Koenigsberg  40 . has given you assist you in the context:  41 A It cut off a little bit -- here we are. Is it started  42 at -- no, it doesn't.  43 Q Okay, Mr. Giraud, you're having a problem locating that  44 trap line on the map I've given you:  45 A Well --  46 Q I have another map here which extends down to the third  47 cabin on the Yukon Telegraph Line and that may be of 72 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 assistance to you. I'll have a photocopy made for Mr. Rush  2 at the break. Now, I'm going to give you this other map to  3 assist you.  4 A Can't find Jackwater Lake in there for some reason.  5 Q Okay. You're having difficulty with this first map I've  6 given you so let's not worry about it. Now, I have another  7 map here with highlighting and on this map is written, "Map  8 No. 2," and there is some writing on this map, "J. Hodder,"  9 H-0-D-D-E-R, "1938," and, "L. Gelley," G-E-L-L-E-Y, "1939,"  10 ad.I'm going to hand that map to you and ask you whether  11 that's an accurate portrayal of the line that you were  12 working on with Mr. Gelley along the Yukon Telegraph?  13 A Hm hmm.  14 MR. RUSH: Well, this map, in addition to what you've said, also  15 has the writing, "Map 2," and then in red, "6, 5, 4, and  16 3," on it, and then a yellow highlighting on it.  17 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, that's correct.  18 A Maybe I can get somewhere now. Well, the line started at  19 third cabin.  20 Q You're pointing to No. 3 on the map I've handed you?  21 A No. 3, yes, and it went to six cabin.  22 Q You're pointing to No. 6 on that map I handed to you?  23 A That's right.  24 Q Took in third cabin, fourth cabin, and fifth cabin and  25 sixth cabin.  26 Q So that map that you've now looked at shows the area in  27 which you were trapping along the Yukon Telegraph?  28 A That's right.  2 9 MR. MACKENZIE: Could we mark that as the next exhibit, please?  30 MR. RUSH: I take it that the answer is that it shows the area  31 in highlight?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  33 MR. RUSH: Is that right:  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q Is that correct, Mr. Giraud, there is a yellow highlighting  36 between those numbers and does that yellow highlighting  37 show the trap line area, generally, that you were working  38 on with Mr. Gelley?  3 9 A It generally does, yes. We -- in these small creeks, we --  40 you know, we went a little further off the line. We didn't  41 follow -- it didn't follow exactly that.  42 MR. MACKENZIE: We are marking that Map No. 2 as Exhibit 40.  43  44 (EXHIBIT 40 - Map No. 2 with Yellow Highlighting)  45  46 MS. KOENIGSBERG: You'll provide us with a copy?  47 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, and I'll also provide a copy to Mr. Rush. 73 GIRaUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 Q Would you like to have a break at eleven o'clock: We are  2 just about quarter to eleven now.  3 A That's all right.  4 Q Now, speaking about this Telegraph Line Trap Line, you told  5 Ms. Koenigsberg last time of some of the fur that you took  6 out of that line. DO you recall whether you took fisher  7 off that line?  8 A We did.  9 Q And fox:  10 A Fox, the odd fox.  11 Q And marten$  12 A Marten, yes.  13 Q Mink?  14 A The odd mink. It wasn't a big mink line but it was the odd  15 mink.  16 Q Squirrel?  17 A Squirrel, yes.  18 Q Weasel?  19 A Yes.  20 Q Wolverine?  21 A The odd wolverine, yes.  22 Q Wolf?  23 A The odd wolf, yeah.  24 Q Beaver?  25 A We didn't stay for the beaver trapping. By the time we,  26 you know, before -- it breaks up pretty late there and we  27 didn't do much as far as beaver trapping is concerned.  28 Q Muskrat?  29 A We got the odd muskrat but there it's the same thing; when  30 things are froze up, you have to do quite a bit of work to  31 get a trap in.  32 Q Did you ever get cougar:  33 A No, I never saw cougar in there at all, or a track.  34 Q Coyote?  35 A The odd coyote, yes.  36 Q Now, you didn't trap bears, I take it?  37 A No.  38 Q You didn't trap marmots?  39 A No.  40 Q And I take it you didn't trap skunk?  41 A Not intentionally.  42 Q Can you tell me generally what elevation your trap lines  43 would be located? For example, were they along the river,  44 the river banks and in the forests?  45 A Our line ran along -- the main trail, along Yukon  46 Telegraph. We had branch lines that would go up some of  47 these creeks that come in from the side, hey: 74 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exaM by Mr. MacKenzie  1 Q Yes:  2 A But just within -- within the headwaters, like, you see,  3 the headwaters of..the creek down to Skeena.  4 Q Yes?  5 A Although we didn't go way up into there, the headwaters.  6 We didn't -- it followed that, pretty well followed it,  7 except we might have gone up these creeks a little ways,  8 these branch lines.  9 Q You went up the creeks that branched off from the main  10 line?  11 A Yes.  12 Q Did you go up into Alpine areas?  13 A No, not for trapping.  14 Q To your knowledge did the Indian trap lines follow the same  15 type of pattern that your trap lines did, along the creeks?  16 A Well, the Indians didn't trap this line.  17 Q That's right.  18 A That was our line, but they had some branch lines here and  19 there. Like, some of them used to go up Canyon Creek and  20 fish up in -- or trap up in this area.  21 Q Now, you're referring to the Canyon Creek?  22 A Canyon Creek area.  23 Q Which is just below the fourth cabin?  24 A That's right, yeah. They used to go up through to Canyon  25 Lake and I don't know exactly where they trapped in there.  26 I didn't ever go in there. And Jimmy Blackwater, I don't  27 know where he trapped in there. Gelley might have -- might  28 know, but I just don't remember where he trapped.  . .  29 Q Talking about Jimmy Blackwater, we're looking at Damdochax  30 River; do you see that there?  31 A Yes.  32 Q Damdochax Lake:  33 A Right.  34 Q Is that also known as Blackwater Lake?  35 A Well, it was known as Blackwater Lake, yeah.  36 Q Yes. Moses Stevens had a line up in this area too, didn't  37 he:  38 A Well, Moses was down below third cabin somewhere, down  39 between third and second cabin, down in here, and I don't  40 know if he trapped or not. He was quite an old man and he  41 was pretty, you know -- he wouldn't -- his trapping  42 wouldn't be very far away from his camp, I'm sure.  43 Q So he certainly wouldn't have trap lines going along  44 mountain ridges or up to the peaks?  45 A No, Moses wouldn't have 'cause he couldn't travel there.  46 Q And you wouldn't either?  47 A Well, no, there was nothing. You went where fur was and 75 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 there's nothing in the high ground where there's no timber.  2 Q When you were up in the trap line, did you hunt for food?  3 A Yes.  4 Q What sort of animals were you hunting?  5 A Well, moose were the mainstay.  6 Q Did you --do you recall ever having a dispute with Moses  7 Stevens about his trap line?  8 A Moses Stevens was an old gentleman and many times in going  9 OUt to Hazelton, on the way back, old Moses would be on the  10 trail, hey, standing there where --he lived off the trail.  11 Well, if I had something to eat with me and he knows --he  12 was just the finest old gentleman -- but if I had a bare  13 pack or nothing to give him, he woUld wave his snow stick  14 and scream and I don't know what the heck it was all about.  15 That's all I remember about Moses Stevens.  16 Q Last time that we met, you spoke about other white trappers  17 that were up in that area and some Indian trapping. Was  18 there active Indian trapping in that area, to your  19 knowledge?  20 A Not -- just Jimmy Blackwater. That's the only Indian I  21 know f except -- let's see -- the Wright brothers went up  22 into Canyon Creek area once that I remember.  23 Q Were they white or Indian?  24 A Indians.  25 Q How did Jimmy Blackwater get access up to his territory?  26 A Through the Telegraph Line.  27 Q He went along the Telegraph Trail?  28 A That's right. He took pack horse loads in, in the fall,  2 9 and then he took the horses out and when he came out, he  30 snowshoed out in early spring --or Christmas.  31 Q DO yoU recall other Indians traveling along the trail to  32 get to trap lines up in your area? Did you meet any?  33 A Just the Wright brothers. I forget their names but they  34 were Wright's. They went up over to Canyon Creek. That's  35 the only ones that I remember, but very little Indians  36 trapping that far into the woods those days.  I mean --  37 Q What was the reason for that, to your knowledge?  38 MR. RUSH: And what is the source of his knowledge.  39 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I think Mr. Rush will ask you that question  40 when he cross-examined you.  41 A Hm hmm.  42 Q What was the reason for that, to your knowledge?  43 A I don't know.  44 Q Well, to your knowledge was that the case in that area that  45 there were few Indians up in the wilderness away from the  46 settled areas?  47 A That's right. 76 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 Q To your knowledge they were mostly in around the villages?  2 A Well, very seldom come up that far up in the woods. I say  3 the Wright's and the Blackwater's were the only ones and  4 then old Moses down on the lower end. That's the only ones  5 I remember in that area.  6 Q Well, to your knowledge were the Indians trapping in other  7 areas:  8 A I can't answer that. If I didn't see them trapping, I  9 wouldn't know.  10 Q Well, you're right, yes.  11 Q Did you know Les Cox?  12 A Yes.  13 Q And he was the game warden in those later years?  14 A Later years, yes.  15 Q He was based in Smithers?  16 A He was.  17 Q Was he a fair man?  18 A I imagine so. I had no dealings with him as I remember.  19 Q Now, you mentioned that eventually Mr. Gelley sold the trap  20 line to the Indian Affairs, is that correct?  21 A That's right.  22 Q And you received some money after that sale?  23 A I did, but it wasn't that much, but I can't remember  24 exactly how much it was; a few hundred dollars.  25 Q And do you recall meeting with the Indian agent and Mr.  26 Gelley to discuss that sale?  27 A I don't remember.  28 Q Did you know Mr. Mallinson, the Indian agent in Hazelton?  29 A Yes, I did.  30 Q Did you discuss with him the --do you recall discussing  31 with him the sale of the trap line:  32 A I can't recall. Pardon me, but that trap line was sold to  33 the Indian Department and that was none of -- I had nothing  34 to do with that, if that's as far as you're going. I  35 don't -- I had nothing to do with that because that was  36 done b' .Gelley and Marty Allen. I was no longer with them  37 when it was sold to the. Department of Indian Affairs.  38 Q Now, just speaking about trapping in general in those days,  3 9 you mentioned that the fur prices varied from year to year.  40 Is that the case?  41 A Yes, that's true.  42 Q And when the prices of furs were good, was there an  43 increase in trapping activity:  44 A I can't recall whether there was or not. We're talking  45 about a period of about four years, three or four years,  46 that I monkeyed around there and that's --  47 Q I understand. Well, later on in your evidence you spoke 77 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 about beaver dams on the salmon streams, do you recall  2 that?  3 A Yes.  4 Q And you were -- when you were the fisheries officer, you  5 were remove beaver dams:  6 A Right.  7 Q To clear the streams, is that correct?  8 A Right.  9 Q And those beaver dams built up during years when there was  10 no trapping of the beaver, is that correct?  11 A Yes.  12 Q And were those years, to your knowledge, when the prices  13 were down?  14 A I don't know.  15 Q I see. But you're aware that in some years there was  16 little trapping and the beaver dams increased?  17 A I believe there was, yeah. They would, of course, but --  18 Q Did you want to have a break now?    . .  19 A I was just going to say that they didn't --a dam didn't  20 have to be torn down to trap beaver.  I m%n, the beaver,  21 you could trap them yourself. Beaver would trap without  22 destroying dams, if you want to trap them.  23 Q Yes, but you wanted to destroy the dams to clear the  24 streams?  25 A Well, yes, we opened them up while the fish were there and  26 when the fish got through and went up above to the -- they  27 spawn in the dams further up in the streams -- the beavers  28 soon built them up again, hey?   "  29 Q Yes:  30 A But that had to be done on a more or less yearly basis;  31 open a hole in the dam to let the fish through and then we  32 could forget about it until the next year.  33 Q Good. We will take a short break now. How long would you  34 like, ten minutes:  35 A Fine and dandy with me.  36  37  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  38  3 9  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED)  40  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q Yes, we are continuing with the examination, Mr. Giraud,  43 and you're still under oath?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Most of my questions deal with that short period of time  46 before the war, as you say. The next subject I wanted to  47 discuss with you was that brief period of time when you 78 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 were at the Red Rose Mine working for Cominco. DO you  2 recall that?  3 A Yes.  4 Q And what I want to show to you now is another map in which  5 Hazelton appears and then the Skeena River flowing  6 southwest to Skeena Crossing, and I'm putting that map  7 before you. Can you identify where the Red Rose Mine would  8 be on that map?  9 A Yes, I can.  10 Q Can you mark it on that map with a red pen?  11 A It's just at the end of that road going up there.  12 Q You're referring to the road going from Skeena Crossing?  13 A Skeena Crossing there, yeah.  14 Q Yes, you've marked -- it's the Red Rose Mine near Red Rose  15 Peak?  16 A Below --it wasn't right on the -- it was up on a hog's  17 back bat not right up on the pea  18 MR. MACKENZIE: Could we mark that map as the next exhibit,  19 please?  20  21  (EXHIBIT 41: Map showing Red Rose Mine)  22  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q You have that map still in front of you, Exhibit 41, Mr.  25 Giraud?  26 A Yes.  27 Q You said that you helped build a road to the mine. Does .  28 that road appear on the map?  29 A It does.  30 Q Can you circle that with a red pen?  31 A I would think that was about the part that I worked on.  32 Not right from Skeena Crossing. The road was -- part of  33 the road was in. Originally, it was a road to the old  34 Rocher de Boule Mine but it had to be --  35 Q R-0-C-H-E-T, new word, D-E, new word, B-0-U-L-E.  36 A Yeah.  37 Q R-0-C-H-E-R?  38 A Yeah, Rocher.  39 Q Now, that road went along Juniper Creek. Do you recall  40 that?  41 A It did.  42 Q And you were working for the mine in that area in 1941?  43 A Consolidated Mining and Smelting I was working for, yes.  44 Q Were there any Indians employed in the construction of that  45 road to your recollection?  46 A I don't remember.  47 Q Were there any other mines active in that area to your 7 9 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 recollection?  2 A Not that I remember, no.  3 Q What type of mine was the Red Rose Mine?  4 A It was a tungsten property. There was a native Indian  5 fellow worked in the mill there, Ben Ridsdale. He was  6 from -- he's from Hazelton, I guess he was.  7 Q Yes, hat's a familiar name.  8 A Pardon me, he went by two names, Ben MacKenzie or Ben  9 Ridsdale. Now, I don't know if one time you called him  10 one, and another time the other, I don't know, but --  11 Q DO yoU recall any other Indians working up there?  . .  12 A I don't recall.  13 Q Had you drove a truck on that road after it was built?  14 A After the road was finished, I went to Vancouver and got  15 them a new truck and drove it up there for them, yes, and I  16 drove truck for a while until the mill got into production  17 and then I went in the mill as an operator.  18 Q You drove -- would it be daily along the Juniper Creek Road  19 up to the mine site?  20 A Not necessarily daily but quite often, frequently.  21 Q Were any other people using that road in those days?  22 A Not -- not that I know of. Not often anyway There might  23 have'.been people going back --up and down for the mine or  24 going up to the old Rocher de Boule or somewhere, but I  25 don't remember any -- much traffic on there.  26 Q Was Rocher de Boule.Mines still operating then?  27 A No, but they had some -- oh, these old mines, always  28 somebody looking at th again, you know.  29 Q Now, in your travels in that area, did you observe Indians  30 along the road or in that -- in the region of the mine:  31 Sorry, I just asked that question.  32 A Not in the mine, but along the highway there was the Skeena  33 Crossing --or the Kitsequecla Indians used to use that  34 road to Hazelton, back and forth.  35 Q The Indians used to use the highway from Kitsequecla to  36 Hazelton:  37 A Right.  38 Q Do you recall ever seeing Indians picking berries in the  3 9 area around the Juniper Creek Road, in the fields or  40 forests of that area?  41 A I don't remember.  42 Q Are you aware of any Indian trapping or hunting activity in  43 that area?  44 A No.  45 Q To your knowledge, was there any objection by the Indians  46 to the construction of that road:  47 A I didn't hear of it at my level. If there had been, I 80 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 didn't know of any of it.  2 Q Were there any demonstrations to your knowledge?  3 A I don't remember any, no.  4 Q And to your knowledge, was there any objection to the  5 operation of the mine?  6 A I don't know of any.  7 Q Were there any logging roads in that area in those years?  8 A Not on that same road that we're talking about, not the Red  9 Rose Mine road, no.  10 Q Speaking generally about the area along the Skeena River,  11 do you recall logging roads being built in those days: Was  12 there logging going on?  13 A Very little at that time, but after the war there was some  14 logging started between Skeena Crossing, that is, and  15 Hazelton. There's some logging and mills in there but they  16 weren't there originally.  17 Q Now, I have some general questions on the fisheries and  18 this now deals with a longer period of time during which  19 you were employed by the Department of Fisheries. Last  20 time that we spoke, you spoke about observing the gaff  21 fishery at Hagwilget. Do you recall that?  22 A Yes.  23 Q And you were also familiar with the gaffing fishery at  24 Moricetown?  25 A Yes.  26 Q Do you know or did you learn when that gaffing fishery was  27 first introduced at those locations?  2 8 A I don't.  29 Q And your evidence also was that one of the -- sorry -- your  30 evidence was that people from the -- Indians from the  31 Hazelton and Skeena area did go down to the mouth of the  32 Skeena River to the coast to engage in commercial fishing:  33 A The men went out on the gillnetters and the womenfolk and  34 kids worked in the canneries; that was the general thing,  35 yes.  36 Q That happened during the years that you were a fisheries  37 officer in that area?  38 A It did.  39 Q Now, speaking again about the gaff fishery, was it your  40 observation that a significant number of fish were wasted  41 as a result of that fishery, the gaff fishery?  42 A It was.  43 Q And did you come to an estimate of the percentage of the  44 fish that were wasted as a result of the gaff fishery?  45 A I don't remember coming to any definite figure on it. I  46 don't remember.  47 Q Is it fair to say that up to fifty percent of the fish were 81 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  1 lost or killed as a result of that gaff fishing?  2 A The ones that were hooked on the gaff, it could be; could  3 be quite a -- that number.  4 Q The ones that were hooked on the gaff and escaped, didn't  5 survive as far as you were aware, generally speaking?  6 A Depends where they would be hooked. If they were hooked  7 through the body, there would be very little survive, a  8 chance of survival to spawn; just a scratch, of course,  9 they could.  10 Q You were engaged in efforts to persuade the Indians to stop  11 that gaff fishing at Hagwilget?  12 A Yes.  13 Q You were personally involved in those meetings to discuss  14 those matters:  15 A Right.  16 Q And is it fair to say that you were unsuccessful in  17 persuading the Indians to stop that fishery?  18 A We went to the Skeena -- to the Fraser River and watched  19 the Fraser River people with their dip nets. We bought dip  20 nets, took them to Hagwilget Canyon and gave them and the  21 fellas there could catch fish with them just every bit  22 as -- it would be every bit as good as the gaff, but they  23 didN't like them because they were, I think, a bit on the  24 heavy side and the current dragged on them and they could  25 catch with them just as well but they just didn't want to.  26 Q To your knowledge, were similar efforts made at Moricetown  27 to persuade the Indians to cease the gaff fishery there?  28 A Yes, the same went on.  29 Q Those efforts were not successful?  30 A Not really, no.  31 Q Did that fishery continue until you left your position as a  32 fisheries officer?  33 A Yes.  34 Q Is it your knowledge that the main food source, that is,  35 the natural food source for the Indians in this area, was  36 the salmon fishery?  37 A I would say it was one of the staples. Fish could be dried  38 and kept for winter, but they hunt as well, hey? They hunt  39 and pick berries and dry berries up and whatnot.  It isn't  40 the sole --  41 Q Were you aware of this diet changing during the period that  42 you were stationed in the Skeena area from meat and fish to  43 more store-bought or western-type of diet?  44 A I don't remember any sudden thing there, no, not any sudden  45 thing, but they did use the stores if they had the money.  46 Q Well, you say that when the economy was good and there was  47 employment, that the level of Indian fishing went down. 82 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. MacKenzie  cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A Well, they had the money; they could buy.  2 Q So your experience was that when they had the money they  3 would, as far as you were aware, they would purchase food  4 from stores?  5 A Stores, right.  6 Q Were you involved or did you become aware during your time  7 in the Skeena area of disputes between the Indians over  8 ownership of fishing sites:  9 A I don't recall of any. I know they were handed down but I  10 don't remember any fights about it.  11 Q Now, it has been said that the Indians were conservers of  12 the natural resources. To your knowledge and your  13 experience, did you observe what might be called a  14 conservation ethic among the Indians?  15 A I did not.  16 Q Can you summarize, as a result of your many years of  17 experience in fisheries administration in that area, what  18 to your observation the attitude of the Indians was to the  19 fisheries management?  20 A Well, in short words, I would say I don't think they liked  21 US.  22 Q But I take it from your evidence that they did comply  23 generally with the regulations?  24 A Yes, they did.  25 Q When you say they didn't like -- they didn't like the --  26 you said the Indians didn't like the fisheries management  27 officials. What do you mean by that?  28 A Well, I have had -- I had one man, or one Indian fisherman,  29 that tried to take me to task and he says, "Oh, we didn't  30 have any bother like this before the white man came." I  31 mean, that showed their attitude, really, although they  32 took all the advantage of the white man and they didn't  33 like -- I have heard that. A man came right out to me,  34 "Oh, didn't have this trouble before you so-and-so white  35 men came."      .  .  36 MR. MACKENZIE: I have no further questions.  37  38 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:  39 Q All right, Mr. Giraud, I get to ask you some questions now.  40 A Go ahead.  41 Q I have a few, and I'm going to take a little bit of time  42 today and I'll take some time tomorrow and I'll take a  43 little bit of time on Thursday if that's okay?  44 A We've got a long tour ahead of us.  45 Q Yes.  46 A If I can answer them.  47 Q Okay. Well, we'll see just how well we do. 83 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 I want to go back to the time that you first became a  2 fisheries inspector in Terrace in 1947. I'm right about  3 the date, am I, about 1947?  4 A Right, right.  5 Q And you went to Terrace in, what, the spring of '47:  6 A I can't remember the exact -- the date on it, actually, but  7 I opened the first fishery office there. I can't remember  8 the exact date right now. I've got it in my records  9 somewhere.  10 Q All right. There hadn't been a fisheries office in Terrace  11 before you got there and opened that one:  12 A Not a fishery office. There had been a guardian there,  13 what they called a guardian, but he worked out of his own  14 home.  15 Q That's what I wanted to ask you about. Who was the  16 guardian, do you remember?  17 A Before I --  18 Q Before you got there?  19 A -- came there? He was a man by the name of Hall, I think.  20 Q id do you know how long --  21 A Fred Hall.   ' .  21 Q Fred Hall?  23 A Yeah, and I don't know how long he had been there.  24 Q Did he work with you, continue to work with you after you  25 got there?  26 A I don't think so. I'm not sure but I don't think so.  27 I did his work as well as mine, I guess.  28 Q Do you know how long there had been a guardian stationed in  2 9 Terrace?  30 A I do not know now.  I do not know.  31 Q When you got there in 1947, what was the district that you  32 were in charge of? Do you remember the limits of the  33 district?  34 A I'll have to get a map, I guess. I just can't -- offhand,  35 I can't say.  36 Q You took in the Lakelse?  37 A I took in the Lakelse.  38 Q And how far downstream from Terrace was your district:  It  3 9 didn't go to the mouth:  40 A It didn't go to the mouth. It went part way down. I  41 believe it was somewhere around Shames (phonetic), in that  42 vicinity.  43 Q Did it go south of the Kalum River?  44 A South of the Kalum River:  45 Q Excuse me, west of the Kalum River?  46 A Oh, yes, it did.  47 Q Several miles or quite a distance? 84 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A Yeah, quite a distance.  2 Q Then your district extended upstream, we know, to the mouth  3 of the Skeena and the Bulkley Rivers?  4 A Well, not originally I don't think. Well, maybe  5 originally. There was a change, a change in there. I'm  6 sorry.        1  7 Q All right, this is what I wanted to find out. When you  8 first went there, my understanding is that your district  9 did not extend above Cedarvale:  10 A Well -- well, I had a notion it was somewhere in there.  11 Yeah, was a small district because -- I think that's  12 what it was.  13 Q And then sometime after your arrival there, the district  14 was expanded to include an area that was farther upstream?  15 A Right.  16 Q To the mouth of the Bulkley and the Skeena?  17 A Right.  18 Q Is that right?  19 A Right.  20 Q But you couldn't remember the precise date that occurred:  21 A No, I can't.  22 Q Okay. Who was it that was your senior officer? Who did  23 you report to when you first arrived in '47 in Terrace?  24 A I reported to -- I think it was Gordon Reid, I think, in  25 Rupert, was the'.supervisor, District Supervisor.  26 Q He was the District Supervisor?  27 A Yes.  28 Q So that was a direct line of command?  29 A Right.  30 Q Did you have anyone working for you in 1947?  31 A I don't remember.  32 Q It's correct to say though is it, Mr. Giraud, that you were  33 the first fisheries inspector in the district?  34 A I wouldn't say that because there was -- originally, the  35 fishery officer that was in Rupert that'.was in charge of  36 the commercial fishery on the Skeena River, he used to - -  37 he had this Hall. He worked for him when he -- before I  38 got there, and he used to make the odd trip up there in the  3 9 fall. That's the only time he'd ever have of going there.  40 Q But Mr. Fred Hall was a temporary appointment for the  41 summer?  42 A Yes, a summer employee.  43 Q Like most of the guardians?  44 A Like most of the guardians, right.  45 Q You would have been the first permanent fisheries inspector  46 in the district, is that right?  47 A Right, living in the district. 85 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q You lived in Terrace and that's where you made your  2 residence?  3 A That's right.  A Q Were you a married man at that time?  5 A Yes.  6 Q Was your family located with you there at the time?  7 A Yes.  8 Q Children as well?  9 A I had no children at that time.  10 Q Now, can you recall, Mr. Giraud, whether or not you were  11 the first representative of the Department of Fisheries to  12 gather data or information regarding the escapements on the  13 Skeena in your district:  14 A I would say the statistics prior to my being there were  15 more or less hit and miss with nobody there on a steady  16 basis. I think that when I started, it w%s the first time  17 they had any real statistics.  18 Q Okay. It was really the first time, wasn't it, when you  19 arrived, was the time that the Department of Fisheries  20 obtained statistics about the Indian catches?  21 A That's right.  22 Q Now, as a fisheries inspector you had obligations as an  23 enforcement officer?  24 A I did, under the Fisheries Act.  25 Q Yes, and am I correct in saying that you were really the --  26 in addition to being the first fisheries inspector, you  27 were really the first fisheries enforcement officer on your  28 district of the Skeena River?  29 A Well, Billy -- Wil Strachan, when he was in there, he was  30 an enforcement officer too but he didn't live there so he  31 was only -- only made the odd trip up there maybe in the  32 spring or fall so I was the resident one, first resident  3 3 one.  34 Q Who is Wil Strachan?  35 A Bill Strachan.  36 Q Who was he:  37 A Well, he was a fishery officer in charge of the commercial  38 fishery of the Skeena River and he went, as I said before,  3 9 he went up as far as his area did go up to Terrace before I  40 went there, but he only made trips once in a while.  41 Q The occasional trip?  42 A Occasional trips, yes.  43 Q He was resident out in Prince Rupert:  44 A Right.  45 Q And he was charged with the responsibility of looking after  46 the commercial fishery as well?  47 A The commercial fishery as well, yes. 86 GIRAUD, V.5. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q Okay, but in terms of being the first stationed enforcement  2 officer in the district that you were responsible for on  3 the Skeena, you were the first person to do that:  4 A That's right.  5 Q Now, am I right to say, Mr. Giraud, that there was really  6 no enforcement on the Skeena River prior to your getting  7 there?  8 A Well, let's say it was hit or miss at the best, hey? A  9 guardian -- there was a guardian working there.  I don't  10 remember Seeing any cases that he brought in. And there  11 was -- I think I probably did bring in the first law  12 enforcement on the fishery.  13 Q And even at that, you, in the period of time from 1947 I  14 think until 1959 --  15 A Hm hmm.  16 Q -- you never laid very many charges yourself, did you?  17 A Not many, no.  18 Q DO yoU know, Mr. Giraud, why the Department of Fisheries  19 established the district office in Terrace in 1947?  20 A Well, they wanted more information.  21 Q DO yoU know why?  22 A I guess it was needed.  I don't know exactly why, no, but  23 they did need the information. They -- they also -- it was  24 a research board moved in at the same time around Lakelse  25 Lake and they were gathering whatever information they  26 could.  27 Q Is that the same research board that Miss Koenigsberg  28 talked to you about when she asked you questions this  2 9 morning? I think she asked you about the Skeena River  30 Management Committee. Is the Research Board something  31 different from the Skeena River Management Committee?  32 A Well, the research board -- the Skeena Management Committee  33 was made up of members of.he research board and fisheries  34 officers, other people, hey?  35 Q So the board established a presence in the Lakelse?  36 A Lakelse Lake.  37 Q In 1947 as well?  38 A I'm not sure if that was the date.  I can't -- I'd have to  3 9 go back on that. I wouldn't be sure about it  40 Q But somewhere in or around the same time?  41 A In around the same time, yes.  42 Q Now, you worked for, I guess, a period of about twelve  43 years as a fisheries inspector?  44 A Hm hmm.  45 Q In the district on the Skeena River up until 1959, is that  46 correct? Now, I may be taxing your memory here but I have  47 a report that suggests that in 1959 you moved from Terrace: 87 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A Well, I went from Terrace to Rupert but, offhand, I can't  2 tell you the exact date but it's probably so.  3 Q All right, but when you did move, you changed your position  4 of being a fisheries inspector for the district around  5 Terrace and up river to - - up river on the Skeena. You  6 changed your job to being a fisheries inspector out of  7 Prince Rupert?  8 A Out of Prince Rupert, yes.  9 Q Right. Do you know who took over from your position after  10 you left in 1959?  11 A The name -- the name slips me but I can't --  12 Q Does the me Engelson (phonetic) sound familiar:  13 A Engelson was in Smithers.  14 Q He was in Smithers?  15 A Yeah.  16 Q So he was responsible for up the, what, the Bulkley and the  17 Morice?  18 A The Bulkley, the Morice and the Babine, hey?  19 Q Now, do you know whether -- did he replace you or --  20 A No, no.  21 Q He didn't?  22 A No. No, I just -- when I was in Terrace, I just went to  23 Hazelton and I went eventually north of Hazelton but --  24 Q And when you went north of Hazelton, you can't quite  25 remember the date when that occurred:  26 A No.  27 Q Okay. Now, I want to ask you now about your duties as a  28 fisheries inspector. Can you tell me if these, the duties  29 that I'm going to name to you, comprise what you were  30 obligated to do for the department? You were to patrol, as  31 I understand it, the Skeena River in your district?  32 A Right.  33 Q And were you supposed to take counts of fish catches of the  34 Indian fishery:  35 A Right.  36 Q And as well of the sports fishery?  37 A We didn't have any definite set-up on the sport fishery but  38 we reported on it, whether it wis heavy, light, or medium  3 9 or stuff like that, you know.  40 Q You were also to gather information regarding the  41 escapement statistics?  42 A That's right.  43 Q I take it that you were to perform some enforcement roles  44 along the Skeena, is that right?  45 A That's right.  46 Q And am I correct in my belief that you were the sole person  47 for the Department of Fisheries working in your district 88 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 out of Terrace?  2 A Oh --  3 Q There was nobody else from Terrace?  4 A I was the only fishery officer there.  5 Q And when you did your patrols as part of your duties, were  6 these mainly patrols done by land:  7 A Land or boat.  8 Q Yes. I understand that you did boat patrols, but when you  9 first got there wasn't most of your patrolling done by  10 land:  11 A Land. I would say so, yes.  12 Q You had to have a vehicle in order to get to where you  13 needed to 00:  14 A Yes.  15 Q Now, there was a guardian who was stationed, I think you've  16 told us, in the Hazelton area sometime after --  17 A That's right.      . .  18 Q -- sometime after you were appointed the fisheries officer?  19 A Well, I think he was there but he didn't come into -- under  20 my jurisdiction until I moved into Terrace and took over  21 that.  22 Q Now, what were the duties of the guardian that came under  23 your jurisdiction?  24 A Well, general information gathering, the catches, the food  25 fishery, general information pertinent to fisheries,  26 reporting to myself.  27 Q The fisheries guardian reported to you, is that right?  28 A Right.  29 Q Did you hire him?  30 A I kind of -- I believe that he was a guardian there before  31 I took over.the district -- that was Ironside -- I believe  32 that he was. There was --'.there were two or three there  33 that I kind of mixed up i little bit but I think he was  34 there. They did have guardians at that time around  35 Hazelton before I went up there.  36 Q Mr. Giraud, did you train Mr. Ironside yourself?  37 A No, I didn't.  38 Q Do you know what training he had to do his job:  39 A I do not.  40 Q What you know is that he was -- what you believe is that he  41 was the guardian when you too.over in 1947?  42 A I think so, yes.  43 Q He worked with you for a period of time?  44 A Yes.  45 Q As the guardian around the Hazelton area?  46 A That's right.  47 Q And it was the case, wasn't it, that it was a requirement 89 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 for the guardian to have a car?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And that was so that he could do his patrols:  4 A That's right.  5 Q Now, the reason I was wondering about when he was first  6 appointed, was that in one of the annual reports which has  7 been exhibited here, Exhibit 4, mention is made of Mr.  8 Ironside and maybe Ms. Koenigsberg could just make  9 reference to it. It's the first paragraph of Document  10 4218, Exhibit 4, and I'm going to read what it says here to  11 you.  It's about six lines down.  12 "A guardian, Mr. G. F. Ironside, was  13 employed from June 1st to October  14 31st to patrol the area in the  15 vicinity of Hazelton. Mr. Ironside,  16 using his personal car, kept in  17 close touch with the Indian fishery  18 at Kitseguecla, Skeena Crossing,  19 Hagwilget, Hazelton, Glen Vowel,  20 Kispiox, as well as doing the  21 spawning surveys in the area."  22 Now, it's suggested to me from this report that this may  23 have been the first time that Mr. Ironside was employed.  24 Does that help you at all?  25 A I don't think so. He came under my employment at the time  26 but I think he was employed before that. I could probably  27 check it out but --  28 Q Okay. Do you know where he was from, where he lived or--  2 9 A He lived at South Hazelton.  30 Q Did he?  31 A He was an original operator on the old Yukon Telegraph Line  32 before it closed down.  33 Q I see. Do you know -- if he was there before you, do you  34 know, do you have any recollection, of how long before you:  35 A I have not.  36 Q I take it, Mr. Giraud, that Mr. Ironside was a seasonal  37 employee?  38 A That's right.  3 9 Q And that the reference here is that he was employed from  40 June 1st to October 31st?  41 A Right.  42 Q Was that the usual period that guardians were employed for?  43 A That's right.  44 Q Now, do you know when Mr. Ironside retired or left the job?  45 A I can't say offhand.  46 Q All right, I'll get the reference to you perhaps tomorrow,  47 but it's my understanding he retired in 1952? 90 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A I wouldn't know that right now. I could find it out but --  2 Q Okay. Now, you say he reported to you?  3 A That's right.  4 Q Was there any other guardian who reported to you in, let us  5 say, that period from 1947 to 1952?  6 A My mind is getting kind of foggy again. I don't recall  7 right now.  8 Q And it was Mr. Ironside, as I understand it, who provided  9 you with escapement statistics from the Hazelton vicinity:  10 A Escapement, through the rivers during the summer, I got up  11 there myself to see the escapement on the spawning ground.  12 Q I see. Then when you mention in your annual report for  13 1948 that he was doing the spawning surveys, did that mean  14 that he was doing them with you or by himself?  15 A Could be by himself or with me. I mean, I'm not -- I won't  16 swear to that either way.  17 Q My understanding of the reports or the suggestion from the  18 reports, is that it was mainly Mr. Ironside who provided  19 you with the information regarding the strength of the fish  20 runs for the Hazelton vicinity?  21 A He had quite an input to it; he was there all the time.  22 But I was up there at least once a week; probably, checking  23 it out.  24 Q Am I correct in saying that you relied on him fairly  25 heavily for the information?  26 A That's right.  27 Q Is that true also with regard to the estimates of the  28 Indian fish catches?  29 A Yes, that's true.  30 Q Do you know, Mr. Giraud, whether or not Mr. Ironside ever  31 issued any charges or issued a summons in respect of any  32 fishing offences in his area:  33 A I don't recall.  34 Q Could he have? Did he have the power to do that?  35 A Oh, he had the power but I don't think he would have --  36 would do it without consulting me. I'm not sure. I don't  37 recall everything.  38 Q To your knowledge, Mr. Giraud, Mr. Ironside did his  39 patrolling using his car?  40 A That's right.  41 Q In that area, okay. Now, is there a Mr. Allen who replaced  42 Mr. Ironside after his retirement? Do you remember an  43 Allen working for you?  44 A I remember Joe Allen well. I know Joe Allen well and he  45 did work for me at one time but I can't remember now.  46 Q He worked for you for one season?  47 A Could have been, yes. 01 GIRAUD, V.H. (for defendants)  cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q And do you remember if there was a fairly regular turnover  2 of the guardian after Mr. Ironside retired? Was there a  3 new guardian every season?  4 A I don't think so but I can't tell. I would have to get  5 into the records.  6 Q You couldn't tell me for example --  7 A Offhand I couldn't.  8 Q Okay.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Maybe this will be a good time to break.  10 MR. RUSH: All right. Let me see if I can find a place here  11 that would be good for me to stop.  12 Q Well, just let me see. I just want to try to assist you in  13 terms of the guardians here at the -- well, I think what  14 I'll do, Mr. Giraud, I have the reports that will assist us  15 both in determining the dates here.  16 A All right.  17 Q It's a little difficult to recall each and every year.  18 What I'll do is just pull them out for you and show who the  19 guardians were and when Mr. Ironside retired and maybe I'll  20 show you those tomorrow so we don't just have to rely  21 completely on memory here.  I have those for you.  22 Maybe at this juncture we can just adjourn until  23 tomorrow morning. Would that be acceptable to you?  24 A I think that would suit me fine.  25 MR. RUSH: Thank you.  26  27 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO SEPTEMBER 16, 1987 10:00A.M.)  28  2 9     I hereby certify the foregoing to be  30 a true and accurate transcript of the  31 proceedings herein, transcribed to  32 the best of my skill and ability:  33  34  35  36 Ruth V. Spencer  37 Official court Reporter.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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