Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Martha Brown Vol. 1] British Columbia. Supreme Court 1985

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 BROWN, M .  In Chief  Mr. Grant  FRANCES SAMPSON,  Gitksan Interpreter, Sworn  MARTHA BROWN,  Witness called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs, duly Sworn,  testifies, as follows:  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  What is your name?  (In English) Martha Brown.  What is your Indian name?  Xhliimlaxha.  What does that Indian name mean?  Chief name.  Does Xhliimlaxha mean something in particular?  It's a chief Indian name Xhliimlaxha.  When were you born?  May 24.  How old are you today?  (In English) I'm 85.  I born 1901.  Where were you born?  Gootgo'ots.  Can you describe where that is from Glen Vowell where we  are right now?  (In English)  You know that little bridge is over there  across the river, in the springtime my mother was moving  also my great grandfather Robinson they call it, that  old man,  because they catching spring salmon and they  moved there and stay there.  The first day I helped them  doing the fishing in the springtime.  That's why I was  born in Gootgo'ots.  Who was your mother?  Maggie.  What was her last name?  They left my dad and they're staying with Walter Geel.  (In English)  They're two of us.  One of my sisters died  last — a month ago.  Was that Jessie Olson?  (In English)  Yes.  That's my real sister.  Who was your father?  (In English)  Jimmy Williams, that's my father.  What is his Gitksan name?  Woosimlaxha.  The man that your mother moved in with was Walter Gale? 3  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A   Mm-mm.  Q    Was the name Gale a chief's name?  A   Mm-mm.   (In English)  Not Gale, Geel.  Q    How long have you held the name Xhliimlaxha?  (In English) Since quite a few years ago.  When Frank  Harris died in Hazelton I take that name.  Q    Where was Frank Harris from?  What village did he  belong?  A    (In English) There used to be -- Frank Harris was born  in Kitwanga.  MR. GOLDIE:  What was that?  MR. GRANT:  Kitwanga.  Q    How is Frank Harris related to you?  A     (In English) Likely my grandmother's sister married in  Kitwanga, that is why some of our family is there.  Q    And the grandmother you're referring to is your mother's  mother, is that right?  A     (In English) Yes.  Q    Was he the son of your grandmother's sister?  A     (In English) Mm-mm.  Frank always called my mother  sister. When Frank Harris was married in town in  Hazelton, staying with Allison.  They really close  together.  Q    When you were a child did you receive an Indian name?  A     (In English) Yes.  Q    What was that name?  A    Gildim maaxws.  Q     If you were trying to explain that name to a non-Indian  what would it mean?  A     (In English) That's the crest of my father's, that's why  they called me Gildim maaxws, because my father's  Grouse.  You know when grouse is sitting on the snow,  his bum's up sitting right in the snow.  Q     Is that the white under the tail?  A    Mm-mm.  Q     Is that what your child's name means?  A    Mm-mm.  Q    Did you receive another name when your reached  adolescence or you became a woman?  A     (In English)  My name's Wagya'alt.  That's what Indian  call it ginitxw.  Q    Can you explain what ginitxw is?  A     (In English)  When you first had a woman and have to hide  you away somewhere, you're not supposed to eat fresh  fish or anything.  It's really a rule for us Indians.  We don't eat in four days and they lock me in? Q    Where were you  locked in? 4  BROWN , M  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A    (In English) In a room.  Q    Was that in this village?  A   Mm-mm.   (In English)  We used to live in the end of this  village here.  Q    Yes.  A    (In English) Water Geel' s house there, and raised the  chicken, pigs, horses, cow.  Q    Was there anything else that was done to you at that  time?  A    (In English) Well, they put up a feast before I eat  everything.  Put little feast, not really big one.  Q    Who would come to that feast?  A    (In English) All the Kispiox and this village.  Q    Did people come from Gitanmaax or Kitwanga?  Q    "This village", you're talking about Glen Vowell where  we are right now?  A    (In English)  Yes.  Q    You have said what your name was that you were given  when you became a woman    A   Wagya'alt.  Q    What does Wagya'alt mean?  A    (In English) When you see the sun in the day time, something  round it.  It looks like — what you call it? --        like a rainbow.  Little  bit sometimes, just half of  the sun in the day time you can see it.  Q    Is that like a circle?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    Wagya'alt, was that name given to anyone else after you  had it?  A    (In English) I put it on Sharon Claremont.  Q    Is she related to you?  A    (In English) That's my grandfather. My sister's  granddaughter.  Q    That was your sister Jessie Olson?  A   Mm-mm.  MR. GRANT: If we can just go off the record for a moment.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    This child's name you received and the name when you became a  woman, and Xhliimlaxha, did you get those names at a feast?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    Can you tell us the relation or if the name is important 5  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  and why? Your name that you hold now?  A    (In English)  It's really important for our family.  There's quite a few of us.  The rest of them Lax Gibuu,  they called Dogoges, is a half house, and the other half  is 'Wii 'Mugulsxw, and our chief Xhliimlaxha, is living  right in the back of the house, and their family.  MR. GRANT:  Can we stop for the record for a moment so she can  get all these names down?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, by all means.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Does your name Xhliimlaxha have any relation to any land  of the Gitksan people?  THE INTERPRETER:  The name holds ansilinisxw which is the  hunting ground at a place called Miinhl laxmihl.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Is that in the far north of the Gitksan territory?  A    Yes.  Q    Did Xhliimlaxha have a house in Kispiox, a long house in  the old days?  A    That where his house was.  That's where they live.  Q    I would like to ask you some questions about the  inheritance of names, Gitksan names, Martha.  Could you  tell us how it's decided, for example, that you got the  name Xhliimlaxha?  A    I don't know.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  My brother gets that name.  They used about two  years.  That is why I let them go for a while.  Frank  Harris got it because Uncle Jonathan said Frank Harris  is really good man to get that name.  MR. GRANT:  Could you -- just a moment, Martha -- could you  interpret the first part, so we have it all.  THE INTERPRETER:  The name is almost devil's way, whoever took  it didn't seem to hold it very long.  Like the first  person she mentioned, only three months, and another  person, and then they decided that Frank Harris should  take it because he was a good man.  So she just let it  go.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Does the person who took the name Xhliimlaxha have to be BROWN,  M.  Mr. Grant  In Chief  related to the previous holder of that name?  A    The family that owns the name should hold on to the name  and this is the traditional way, laws of our people.  Q    Do you know who may take that name after you die?        A    I don't know.  Who's rich is going to get it.   Who's got a lot of money.  MR.   GOLDIE: I   didn't   catch   that   answer?  MR.   GRANT: I   don't   know,   who   is   rich  will   get   it.      OFF   THE   RECORD   DISCUSSION  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE  THE  Does the person have to be related to you?  Yes.  When I talk about the House of Xhliimlaxha, you know who  I am referring to?  Yes.  Would you explain who belongs to the House of  Xhliimlaxha?  In the House of Xhliimlaxha on one side is  'Wii 'Mugulsxw —  INTERPRETER:  — I might get confused here with the names -  WITNESS:  -- on the other side, on the left side, is  Dogoges.  There are a lot of other chiefs in the House of  Xhliimlaxha.  Dogoges and 'Wii 'Mugulsxw both have their  other members in the house who are chiefs.  name, that  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Does the person who takes the name of Xhliimlaxha have  to be in the House of Xhliimlaxha?  A     (In English)  Yes.  Q    Do you have any grandchildren or nephews who may take that  you have thought of?  A     (In English)   The reason why I take that name was -- I said give  it to Marvin, the first time, and my daughter said, you had better hang  on to it for a while, Mom.  So that's what I did.  I think I'm going to die  when I get that name.  Q    You referred to Marvin -- this is Marvin Sampson, the son  of Eva Sampson?  A    Yes.  Q    Eva is your daughter, is that right?  A    Yes.  Q    Do you remember a man named Paul Xhliimlaxha?  A     (In English)  Yes.  I used to look after my great grandfather up on the Xsa ' anganimlo ' op, were we getting fish all the time. 7  BROWN, M  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    Obviously he held the name Xhliimlaxha?  That was his  last name, is that right?  A    (In English)  Yes.  Paul Xhliimlaxha.  They used  Xhliimlaxha for his last name.  Q    Do you remember when he died?  A    (In English)  Yes.  Q    And the person who took the name from him was?  A    Edward Sexsmith.  Q    And when Edward Sexsmith died, the person who took the  name from him was?  A    (In English)  My mother tried to put it on one of my  brothers, no longer living.  Mother hold it for a while.  Q    And your mother's name was Maggie Sexsmith?  A    (In English)  Maggie Kale.  My brother's name was John  Geel.  My half brother.  One mother, different father.  Q    Maggie Kale is K-A-L-E.  I just have to assist by  spelling some of these words  And John, his last name  was G-E-E-L, is that right?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    When your mother died who took the name Xhliimlaxha  then?  A    Robert Kale, my other half brother.  Q    That's your other half brother?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    That spelled K-A-L-E for the record. When Robert died  who took the name?  A    Frank Harris.  Q    When Frank died    A    Then I get it.  Q    You have it.  Was the feast for Frank Harris soon after  his death?  A   Mm-mm .  Q    Do you remember how old you were when you took the name?  A    (In English) I've forgotten:  Q    Were you alive when Paul Xhliimlaxha died?  A    (In English)  I was staying with grandmother in Kispiox  and I always go over to grandpa.  That old man is really  deaf.   They can see a little bit, not really, because was really  old.  When they singing they sing like a  Chinaman.  When they're doing some work they start  singing ... (sings a tune)  ... I don't know what kind of  song they had.  When grandmother cook, his wife cook  something and they sent me over where grandpa is, I tell  them, just take away what they're doing and put it away  and grab his hand and pull them, and I did.  Sometime he  pretty near hit me with the cane! BROWN, M .  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    How old were you when these things happened: Were you  still a child?  A (In English) I was about nine years old. I was in the  smoke house where they're doing the smoking fish. They  always doing their net, start in the morning, early in  the morning, sitting down under the big tree trying to  fix the net. It's really old. They didn't even sick a  day or two, just sick about three hours. They're gone.  Reason they died so easy, maybe they're....    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  He died shortly after his house burned and  she thinks that is why he died rather quickly because he  lost his house.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    When you were talking about your great grandfather and  seeing him, where did he live when you were nine years  old?  A     (In English)  Live in Kispiox.  Q    Was that in the Village of Kispiox?  You're nodding yes?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  I just want to stop for a second.    OFF THE RECORD  MR.  GRANT:  All right, go back on the record.  Q    Martha, I would like to ask you some questions about the  seating of the chiefs in Xhliimlaxha's house in the  feast hall.  In the old days, that is when you were  young, do you remember what the seating was like? Or  do you remember what your grandmother told you it was  like?  A     (In English)  They don't allow us to go into the feast  hall when we are kids, you know.  Just who get the names  are allowed to go in.  We used to watch them, sneaking  in the door and standing by the door and look at it.  There's Chief Xhliimlaxha sitting right under -- the  roof like this — they're sitting right under.  Q    Would the tables be like this in the old days    A     (In English)  They don't use any tables, just sitting  down on the floor. Q    Okay.  A     (In English)  All the family of Xhliimlaxha sitting on  this, right hand. 9  BROWN, M .  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    Yes.  A     (In English)  And some of them, whose going to get chief  when the big chief dies, sitting there right in front  where Xhliimlaxha sit.  That's how they do it in the  olden days.  Indian call it Luusat'aa.  THE INTERPRETER:  Luusat'aa means sitting in front.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  When Xhliimlaxha dies the person sitting in  front moves up and sits where Xhliimlaxha sits.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Now you have described that Xhliimlaxha sat right under  the peak, right in the centre?  A     (In English)  Yes.  Q    Then you described his family sitting on his right hand  side?  A    Mm-mm.  Q    Who would sit closest to Xhliimlaxha?  A    Huuitmx.  Q    Who would sit next to?  A    Gawaiyimlo'op, Duu'kx, Ts'ugyat, Malii.  MR. GRANT:  Just a moment. We've got Ts'ugyat.  THE INTERPRETER:  Malii.  MR. GRANT:  That's M-A-L-I-I.  Who else?  Q    Are there any others?  A    That's how many who usually comes in at a regular feast.  MR. GRANT:  She's getting tired? Could we have a five or ten  minutes break.     SHORT RECESS  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    We were talking how the seating was in the early days  and you described the chiefs who sat on the right side  of Xhliimlaxha; did other chiefs from Xhliimlaxha's  house sit on her or his left side?  A     (In English)  No.  There's 'Wii 'Mugulsxw sitting on  that, little ways and all their parents on his right  hand too.  Dogoges was sitting in the other places and  his parents is sitting between.  Q    Did this seating change at some time?  This traditional  seating?  A     (In English) No. Q     Do people at  Xhliimlaxha's table sit the same way today?  A     (In English) No.  It's way different. We all mixed up 10  BROWN, M .  In Chief  Mr. Grant  in that table.  Q  Can you tell me who sits beside Xhliimlaxha on your  right side and your left side in the feast today? A  'Wii 'Mugulsxw.  Q  On the right side?  THE INTERPRETER:  On the left side.  On the right side is  'Wii Eelast.  THE WITNESS:  It's way different.  Supposed to be our table.  It's Guuhalak sitting on the other end and all Gertie's  on his right hand.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Who is Guuhalak?  A     (In English) Norma Barnes.  THE INTERRPETER:  Norma Barnes — Gertie's daughter.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Gertie Morrison?  A    Yes.  Q     I've asked you something about feasts and the seating at        the feast;  do Gitksan still have feasts for funerals,  when someone dies?  A    Yes.  Q    Do they have feasts for pole raising or headstone  raisings?  A     (In English)  Lot of fun too, they put on feast for pole  raising.  Q    What is the Gitksan word for those type of feasts?  A     (In English)  I seen my grandfather Chief T'elgamuux put  up the pole.  THE INTERPRETER:  Pole raising is Hed'nsimgan.  MR. GRANT:  Do you want to spell that?    OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    We'll come back to the feast you were talking about but  I would just like to ask you a few questions about other kinds of  feasts first.  Did the Gitksanhave feasts for weddings? Traditional feasts?  A     (In English)  I seen so many weddings for the olden people.       I seen Isaac  Skulsh wedding in Kispiox.  John Brown.  Q     Isaac Skulsh — S-K-U-L-S-H.  A     (In English)  Lots of wedding for the olden -- little bit  older people, on the weddings, not really fussy like  they do these days. All kinds of goodies they used for 11  BROWN, M. In Chief  Mr. Grant  feasts.  Q    Was there any feast when young boys or young men went  out on their first successful kill with hunting?  A    (In English) They did.  Q    What was that feast called in Gitksan?  A   Xsmayasxw.  Q    That 's Xsmayasxw and the X's are underlined.  When you had your first period, was there a feast  at that time?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    Is that the one you called ginitxw?  A    (In English) Yes.  Q    That's G-I-N-I-T-X-W for the record. With the X  underlined.  Now when Paul Xhliimlaxha's name was passed  on to Edward Sexsmith was that at the funeral feast or  the headstone feast?  A    (In English) Funeral feast.  Q    Did that happen soon after Paul Xhliimlaxha's death?  A    (In English) Mm-mm.  It's right after funeral.  Q    Do you remember what was given out at that feast?  A    (In English)  They use meat, dry meat.  They were making  dry meat.  Dry berries. And xhliguun, moose skin.  That's all they had the money in the olden days. Moose  skins, ground hog skins.  That's all they have pass  out.  They hasn't got any money.  Q    You talked about dried meat, what kind of meats would  they use?  A    Dried goats and dry ground hog.  Q    Where would they get these goats and ground hogs?  A    (In English) They always get it that place, they always  go up to Wilna'masxw and get some mountain goat. When  they need meat they ask Anda'ap.  Some of our young  people ask Anda'ap to go with their family when they go  up to Shedish because there are lots of mountain goat  there.  MR. GOLDIE:  Can we get the name of that? I understand it's a  place name.  MR. GRANT:  Shedish.  MR. GOLDIE:  I didn't think that was the name of the place  where they got ground hog and mountain goat. What is  Shedish?  MR. GRANT:  You said another name, another place, two place  names given.  Could you ask her?  THE WITNESS:   (In English) I don't know what they call it.  THE INTERPRETER:   In Gitksan language it's Luuminxsints'ihl.  Just recently the white people name it Shedish.  MR. GOLDIE:  Shedeest is the English name? 12  BROWN , M  In Chief  Mr. Grant  THE INTERPRETER:  It is an adaptation of the Gitksan.  MR. GOLDIE:  Would you spell it for me please?  THE LINGUIST:  You want the English version?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  THE LINGUIST:   S-H-E-D-I-S-H.  MR. GRANT:  What is the Gitksan name please?  THE LINGUIST:   L-U-U-M-I-N-X-S-I-N-T-S apostrophe I-H-L.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Did you go to the feast for Paul Xhliimlaxha's name when  it was passed to Edward Sexsmith?  A    (In English) They don't allow us to go there because we  are kid.  Just the chiefs and elders people and all  their parents go there.  They keep us in the house.  They doesn't want us to go up.  Q    In the old days, like at this time when you were young  where were the feasts held?  A    Kispiox.  Q    What buildings were they held in?  A   Xhliimlaxha's own house.   (In English) All the houses in  Kispiox, name on it.  Q    What are the names of the other owners of the other  houses?  A    Tsimwilnaghaak.  THE INTERPRETER:  That is the name of the physical house.  MR. GRANT:  Can you spell that?  THE LINGUIST:  T-S-I-M-W-I-L-N-A-G-H-A-A-K underline the  G and the K.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Tsimwilnaghaak is the name of the building where it is  held, is that right?  A    Yes.  Q    Were feasts held in the houses of Walter Geel in the old  days?  A    (In English)  They always had it, yes.  Q    And in the House of 'Wii Eelast?  A    Yes.  Q    That's W-I-I-E-E-L-A-S-T.  Now, when a feast was going  to be held, how did the people who wanted to put on the  feast bring the other people to the feast or let them  know about it?  A    (In English)  They sent them out T'eets.  THE INTERPRETER:  T'eets, the messenger.  BY MR. GRANT:  Was a special person sent as a T'eets' 13  BROWN,  M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A    Mm-mm.  Grandson of the chief is sent.  Q     Is this the grandson of the chief who died?  A     (In English) Nephew.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  MR. GRANT:  Could you translate what she said then?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes to your previous question.  Even in  setting up a headstone, the nephew of the chief that was  the messenger.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    When people wanted to invite members of the House of  Xhliimlaxha who would they send the messengers to and  who would they invite?  THE INTERPRETER:  Repeat that again?  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    When another chief wanted to invite Xhliimlaxha's house  who would they send the messenger to tell it to?  A    It's the same.  It's the same, the nephew of a chief of  any Clan is the messenger but if the chief is strong  enough himself he will go himself wearing a blanket.  Q    What tribe is Xhliimlaxha in?  A    Lax Gibuu.  Q    That's the Wolf tribe, isn't it?  A    Yes.  Q    Did you put a feast to raise the headstone for Frank  Harris?  A    Yes.  Q    Was that sometime after he died?  A     (In English)  Quite a few years after he died.  Put up  the feast last couple of years, about three years ago.  Up in Kispiox.  Q     Is that where his headstone is, in Kispiox?  A     (In English)  No, we put it where they're laying.  In  Hazelton.  Q    What is the name of that feast for the headstone  raising  9  A    Hed'nsimlo'op.  Now, in that feast did you, that is Xhliimlaxha, spend  money to put on the feast?  A    Yes.  Q    Did the other people in your house spend money for that feast?  A     (In English)  All the Lax Gibuu did.  THE INTERPRETER:  The Wolf Clan. 14  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Now, there are other houses in the Wolf Clan, aren't  there?  A    They all came because of their hawal.  THE INTERPRETER:  Which is contributions.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Now, as part of the name of Xhliimlaxha is there a  performance or do people act out their names at the  feasts sometimes?  A    (In English) I don't know.  Q    Is there a — do you know what I mean if I refer to a  naxnox?  Ask her if she wants a rest?  A    They use naxnox in various ways when they set up  headstones, totem poles.  Q    That's something that people watch? It's like a  performance, isn't it?  A    Yes.  Q    Did you see a naxnox performed for Xhliimlaxha in your  lifetime?  A    Yes.  I see them use them Gitwaltxwmgibeeo.   They goes  around.  Lots of wolves coming in, crawl on the floor,  all over where the "simgiigyet" are.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    You saw lots of wolves coming in, were these people  performing as the wolves?  Is that right?  A    (In English)  Yes.  They using — some of them using a  grey blanket and tie those on the head and just crawling  like a dog. And they stick their tail out.  Q    Did you see anyone perform with puppets or with small  figures the name Xhliimlaxha?  A   No.  Q    Do you remember a feast that Edward Sexsmith put on when  he was Xhliimlaxha?  A    Yes.  Q    Was he stopped from putting on that feast by the police  and by the government?  A    Yes.  Q    What happened?  A    (In English)  Well, they don't use any feast for year, I  think, because the government doesn't want them, the  Indian to do it.  Q    What happened to Edward Sexsmith when he tried to put on 15  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  this feast?  A      (In English) They threw him in jail.  That's how he died.  Really cold weather.  Q     Where was the feast held?  A     Kispiox.  Q     Was he taken from the feast?  A      (In English) Yes, they took him off from that feast, never        finished.  Q     The police took him from that feast?  A     Yes.  Q     And the feast was never finished?  A      (In English) And mother and grannie and the rest of them  tried to finish everything.  Q     When you say mother you mean your mother?  A     Mm-mm.  Q     Then Edward Sexsmith was taken to jail in Hazelton?  A     Mm-mm.  Q     This was in winter?  A     Yes.  Q     And he got cold?  A     Mm-mm.  Q     And he died soon after?  A      (In English)  They had double pneumonia.  Dr. Wrinch said  they had double pneumonia.  MR. GOLDIE: What was the doctor's name?  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Do you know the name of the doctor at the hospital?  THE INTERPRETER:   Dr. Wrinch.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Were you there at the feast?  A     Yes.  Q     Do you remember a naxnox performance that involved  Robert Williams?  A     No.  Q     Now, at the funeral feast in the old days did certain  people -- were certain persons responsible for making  the casket when a person died?  A     The nephew of the father's side or a brother of the  father will make the casket.  Q     What is that relation called in Gitksan?  A     Guutgo'o.  Q     Is that person paid at the feast for doing that?  A     That is why he was hired.  It was much cheaper then  because the wood is not that expensive when they fix it.  Q     Would they  get the wood themselves from the territory? 16  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A    They get the wood from wherever the wood is made.  In  the saw mill.  Q    The members of your house came from — they become  members through their mother, is that right?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    So the father's nephew will be in a different house and  a different tribe, is that right?  You're nodding affirmatively, for the record.  The tribe that would put on the feast for the  person that died would be the mother's side, is that  correct?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, at the feast is money collected by the members in  your case the members of the Wolf Tribe?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    Is that money paid out?  A    (In English) They don't collect it, just all the Wolf  Tribe put in some money to it.  It's like helping each  other. We're gathered together and we spend money if  our family died.  We all gather together and work on  it.  The same would be in the olden days.  They helping  each other. As long as you know you're a Wolf you have  to come in and put some food or some money or gwiikxw or  xhliiyuun.  THE INTERPRETER:  Gwiikxw is ground hog and xhliiyuun is moose  hide.  MR. GRANT:  Martha, would you like to have a break now?  A    (In English) If you guys are tired then you can! White  people are always tired!  MR. GRANT:  We'll take a five minute break now.    SHORT RECESS  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    You mentioned earlier the pole raising feast of Geel,  were you at that feast?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, nodding.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    That feast was held at Kispiox, is that right?  A    Yes.  Q    His pole that was raised there is still standing?  A    I don't know.  Maybe it still is.  Q    Where was the pole raised? A    Below the village  where the poles stood long ago.  Q    This is the village of Kispiox?  A    Yes.  I saw four longhouses at Kispiox,  great big 17  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  houses.  One belongs to Xhliimlaxha, one to Gutgwinuxs.  One to — I forget the other names now.  Geel.  T'elgamuux and Guluuhlametxwt,  which is Xhliimlaxha's,  Mary Johnson's own, Fireweed, two houses for the  Fireweed.  Q    As I understand what you have just described, Martha,  you have just described the longhouses that used to be  at Kispiox in the old days?  A    Yes.  That's all those houses.  Q     Just so that we are clear for the record, Martha, I  would like to be clear, you said there were two Fireweed  houses?  A    Yes.  Q    And which were the names of the Chiefs of those houses?  A    Geel.  Q    And Antgulilibiksxw — just a moment -- for the record  referred to in paragraph five of the Statement of Claim.  MR.  GOLDIE:  Is that Geel, is that mentioned in the Statement  of Claim?  MR.  GRANT:  I don't believe so.  Q    There you have described for us two houses and I believe  you also described some other houses, one was the house  of Delgam Uukw?  A    Yes.  Q    This is the Plaintiff referred to in paragraph one, for  the record.  The other was the House of Xhliimlaxha?  A    Yes.  Q    That is yours?  A    Yes.  Q    That is referred to in paragraph eight of the Statement  of Claim for the record.  I'd just like to be sure, I  have Xhliimlaxha,  Delgam Uukw, Antgulilibiksxw,  and  Geel, and what other houses?  A    Guluuhlametxwt is called the other house.  That is  Fireweed, Guluuhlametxwt.  Q    When you refer to Fireweed you're referring to the Clan  or tribe, and it is one of the houses in the Clan?  Nodding affirmatively.  Was there any other houses other than these?  A    Not long after where Arthur's house is, is one longhouse  belonged to Eelast.  Q    E-E-L-A-S-T for the record.  You referred to Arthur,  this is Arthur Wilson?  A    Yes, where the houses are now.  Q    Where the modern houses are in Kispiox:  A    Yes.  Q    Was there any other houses in Kispiox that you saw in 18  BROWN, M .  In Chief  Mr. Grant  the old days?  A     (In English)  They make quite a few little houses. There's lots  of houses in Lax A'yans, Kispiox, parking  lot now, used to be called Lax A'yans.  Q     I just want to be clear on my question which may not  have been clear.  I was referring, of course, to the  longhouses in the olden days and not, of course, all the        houses but  the older log houses.  Other than the ones we  have named was there any other longhouses that belonged  to particular houses or Chiefs?  THE INTERPRETER:  The feasts were used with the names she  mentioned.  Geel,  Delgam Uukw, those were the feast  houses.  MR. GOLDIE:  I have no objection to you leading if there is  another name that you're trying to get?  MR. GRANT:  No, I just want to be sure I have all the names  she has mentioned.  Q    Do you recall a feast at which Haaxw put up a totem pole  at Gitanmaaxs?  A    (In English) I don't know, a couple of years I seen it.  I didn't go there.  When the Haaxw totem pole was put up  in Gitanmaaxs I was in the hospital that time, big old  hospital.  Q    Did you have T.B. at one time?  A    Yes.  Q    This is when you had T.B.?  A    (In English)  No.  I was having something, pneumonia or  something, and the doctor kept me in the hospital for  three weeks.  I heard those funny noises, I went to go  out and look.  It is funny noises.  Q    Was there a dispute over the crest at Haaxw's pole?  A    (In English)  There was a dispute.  Two nights there were  guards of Jack Wright, Thomas Wright, over the totem  pole.  THE INTERPRETER:  She wasn't quite clear on why they wanted to  remove the crest, but there was the Lax Seel, Frog  Clan.  She mentioned the name of Joshua Campbell who  wanted to remove that crest frog that was squashed  sitting on the pole.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Is this pole at Gitanmaaxs now? A   Whether it' s laying  on the ground, I don't know.  Q    It was by the ball field, is that right?  A    (In English)  Yes.  I think that tomb stone is standing  over at the graveyard, over there.  THE INTERPRETER:  Same crest, ayukx. 19  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    The same crest ayukx.  The squashed frog is on the  tombstone as well?  A    Yes.  Q    This was in Kispiox?  A    In the graveyard over there.  Q    Here in Glen Vowell?  A    Yes.  It is Mark Sampson used in Haaxw in the olden  days .  THE INTERPRETER:  Brother (or father) of John Sampson.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    There have been a number of feasts at your tribe, the  Wolf tribe, just recently, haven't there?  A    Whenever we have problems,  troubles, they have feasts.  Q    You knew Matilda Morrison?  A    Yes.  Q     She died just a few weeks ago, is that right?  A    Yes.  Q    Was there a feast held for her?  A    Yes.  Q     She's in the Lax Seel or Wolf tribe?  A    Yes.  Q     Is she in the House of Xhliimlaxha?  A     (In English)  It's the House of Eelast.  Q    Are they related, Eelast is related to Xhliimlaxha but       a different  house?  A    Yes. All the Lax Gibuu.  That is why we all go up there  when Matilda Morrison died.  Q    Did Xhliimlaxha's house donate to the feast of Matilda  Morrison?  A    Yes.  Q     Is that what you call hawal?  A    Yes.  Q    Did this obligation or this hawal,  the responsibility to  give hawal,  did it go on in the olden days?  A    Yes.  Q    When you assisted another house of the Wolf,  tribe like  that were you given privileges to use some of their  resources?  Maybe you would translate that?  A     (In English)  If there is a place open and....    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:   I just asked her to repeat in short terms        so I can  remember rather than all of it and then I 20  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr.  Grant  forget.  MR.  GRANT:  Yes,  tell her her answer is very important,  if  she would just stop so you can translate as much as  possible of everything she says.  THE WITNESS:  I'm lazy! When it's time,  the semoogit,  the  Chief....  THE INTERPRETER:  — like for fishing or whatever, berry  picking --  THE WITNESS:  — they have places where they go.  They will  invite the rest of the family when they discover if  there is good fishing.  The Chief holds the spot called  anjok, and this is the traditional rule of a Chief to  call the rest of the family.  Even a berry patch is the  same. Whenever the berries are ripe,  the Chief will  tell the rest of the family and they will all come.  If  a Wolf is married into Giskaast,  Fireweed Clan,  he is --  he or she is entitled to go also.  To the place or  anj ok.  MR.  GRANT: Are you finished?  THE WITNESS:   The children are also entitled.  THE INTERPRETER:  She's referring to her son's children.  THE WITNESS:  If they want to go.  THE INTERPRETER:  She mentioned a place Gala'anxsan,  headwaters of the Skeena.  THE LINGUIST:  G-A-L-A- apostrophe -A-N-X-S-A-N — underline X.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     I would just like to go back -- you have just said quite  a lot, Martha,  and I would like to go back and clarify  some of the points.  You refer to when a Chief goes fishing or to his  berry grounds he can take his family;  now, by family do  you mean the members of his house?  You're nodding  affirmatively?  Yes.  If there is a member of the Wolf tribe who is not  in the House of Xhliimlaxha can they have any rights to 21  BROWN , M .  In Chief  Mr. Grant  go into Xhliimlaxha's territory?  A    If Xhliimlaxha called them out they can go there.  Q    Okay.  A    Any Wolf, they can go as long as the Chief knows.  Q     So I understand then if they get the permission of  Xhliimlaxha they can go there?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, you refer to a territory at the headwaters of the  Skeena.  It is correct that Xhliimlaxha has two  territories in the Gitksan territory,  is that right?  A    Mm-mm.  Q    One of those territories is some miles up here in the  Kispiox valley,  is that correct?  A    Yes.  Q    And the other territory is at the far north, at the  headwaters of the Skeena?  A    Mm-mm.  MR. GRANT:  For the record she's nodding affirmatively  to  those questions.  It is hard, if you can say yes it is  easier for the Reporter.  MR. GOLDIE:  If not, Mr. Grant will say yes for you.  MR. GRANT:  As long as Mr. Goldie doesn't object.  Q    You describe that your son's children could go up to  that territory?  A    Yes.  Q    Your son's children would belong to another tribe and  another house,  isn't that right?  A    Mm-mm.  Q    Because your tribe goes through your daughters to their  children, is that correct?  A    Yes.  Q    After you die can your son's children still use  Xhliimlaxha's territory?  A     (In English)  They always do.  They always do because  their Dad's on our side.  They supposed to go and get  some food or meat or anything.  Hunting ground or  anywhere in the fishing ground or picking berries where  we take them.  They're supposed to go there because they  called — in Indian call it....  THE INTERPRETER:  That is Gitksan language.  MR.  GRANT:  Can you translate that?  THE INTERPRETER:  They're supposed to go there because,  in  Indian it is called Guutgo'oo.  MR. GRANT:   Yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  Inlaws.  That is the closest I can come to  English. 22  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr.  Grant  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     I would just like to clarify that you understand my  question, Martha.  I asked if your son's children can  use that territory after you die and I understood your  answer to be that they can.  Can they use it as long as  they are alive or is there a time when they have to stop  using it?  A     (In English)  They can use if they need it.  They can use  till they die.  They're not going — the other ones  going to use it after our grandchildren use it.  When my  dad died a couple of years ago they told — his brother  told me to go up that mountain over there and set traps,  picking berries there,  and I go up there just only twice  and no berries there,  and I quit and I didn't go out  hunting because the loggers all over.  Them loggers cut  all the poles and they clear everything.  Our Dad's  traps,  all lost, about 160 traps on that line were  there,  set the trap.  They told me to use it but I  didn't go there.  Q    When you refer to your dad are you talking about Walter  GGeel?  A    Jimmy Williams.  Gutgwinuxs,  and he told me to go up  there because they can use it.  Q    That name is G-U-T-G-W-I-N-U-X-S.  Is that correct,  that you had the right to use your  father's territory as long as he was alive?  A    Mm-mm.  Q    After he died his brother — is your answer that his  brother gave you permission to use his territory?  A    Mm-mm.  Q     If the brother had not given you permission to use his  territory would you still have been able to use it?  A     (In English)  No.  Q    Again,  I just want to clarify,  you talk about your  grandchildren can use your territory as long as they're  alive but,  is it correct,  their children will have no  right to use your territory because they will be in  another Clan?  A    Mm-hm.  Q    Your grandchildren have the right to use your territory  because you have told them it is all right to do that?  A     (In English)  Yes.  Q     I asked you earlier about the hawal, traditionally did  the Chiefs give a person from another house who helped       them out at  the feast certain rights?  A     (In English)  Well,  sometimes they did.  Q    Do you recall any instances of that when you were alive? 23  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A   No,  I don't.  MR. GRANT:  Take a minute for the video camera.     SHORT RECESS  BY MR. GRANT  Q    I raised with you all the feasts of Matilda Morrison,  and there was also a feast of your sister,  Jessie Olson  that was held this summer, a few months ago?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    And Art Sampson?  A    Yes.  Q    Did you attend all of those feasts?  A    Yes.  Q    At those feasts did Xhliimlaxha put in either hawal or  put in for your house in the case of your sister?  A    The feast of my sister is ours.  Q    Yes?  A    Our family.  But the rest of them Lax Gibuu came in for  hawal.  MR. GRANT:   Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  Is there an English equivalent for the hawal?  THE INTERPRETER:  Contributions.  MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Hawal is when people put in at the feasts money or food  or other resources,  is that right?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    Now,  do you recall how much was put in for your sister's  feast?  In total?  A    I spent over 1,000.  Q    You spent over 1,000?  A    Yes.  Q    What did the rest -- what were all the other  contributions from the rest of your house?  A    (In English) Eight or 10,000 I think.  THE INTERPRETER:  I was just asking how much was in the pot  and she said eight to 10,000.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    This was aside from the food and the other contributions  that were put in?  A    (In English) That was just the money in the bowl.  Johnny Olson put a thousand, Alex Olson a thousand,  Amanda Olson put a thousand.  I put 1,200 cash out of  my pocket.  Ivan,  Eva, that is all of our family. 24  BROWN , M  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    That is Ivan Sampson and Eva Sampson is that right?    A    Yes.  Q    What was the name that Jessie,  your sister, held?  A    Sagaitdok  (In English) they didn't even get another  name. Mother just gave them Sagaitdok.  Q    What does that name mean?  A     (In English)  Well, my father's Fireweed.  That is why  that name.  Came part of my father's crest so they call  it Sagaitdok.  When you gather that Fireweed, that is  what it means.  Q    When you gather the Fireweed?  A    Yes, or when you kill the grouse and grab its feet and  hold them both feet, that's what they Sagaitdok,  in  Indian.  Q    Why do the people of Xhliimlaxha like yourself put in  this amount of money at a feast? What is the purpose of  the money going in at the feast?  A     (In English)  The reason why those Indians put up a  feast, because some of them, the other Indians,  are  laughing at us if we don't look after the dead body.  Some people,  you know,  how they, alcohol or drinking  people is laughing at us.  You didn't even look for your  parents body when they died, they said to us. Among  those Indians.  They laughing at us.  That is why them  Indians they all stand together and try pay everything  what the other ones,  Giskaast and Lax Seel, they help  OUt.  If your father's the Lax Seel,  you have to call  them before you died.  My sister died then all the Fireweeds,  we called,  all the Fireweeds, my father's nephew and grandchildren,  Sylvester and all the -- what's the name now? Arthur  Mowatt's daughter.  One of Arthur Mowatt's daughter buy  clothes for sister.  THE INTERPRETER:  The deceased.  THE WITNESS: Victor Mowatt get the casket.  Then some of them  digging in the ground,  and we're supposed to pay them  off.  They get lots of help when they,  all the Lax Gibuu  stand up and help... it's really good.  THE INTERPRETER:  Look at Matilda Morrison's feast.  THE WITNESS: Matilda Morrison hasn't got any old clothes or  anything.  There's all the Lax Gibuu gather everything  and they're full.  They pay the flower and they pay  everything.  That is the rule of those Indians.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    There's three tribes in the Gitksan?  A    Yes. 25  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    Three main tribes,  the Wolf, the LaX Gibuu,  the Fireweed  and GitKaast,  and the Frog, and at Kitwanga there's the  Eagle.  When the Wolf put on a feast do they serve the  other two tribes?  A    They will sometimes.  Q    The other two tribes sit at the tables or sit at the  feast and the Wolf put it on,  the feast, for them, is  that correct?  A    Yes.  Q    After the expenses were paid for all the things the  other people did and for the funeral for your sister,  was there money left over in the pot?  A    (In English)  I think so. After they gave all the money  for who's sitting at the table.  Q    That is what they do afterwards?  A   Mm-mm.  They give money for the people who's sitting on  the table,  the other Chiefs.  Q    Why do they give money to the other Chiefs?  A    (In English)  I don't know.  That is rule in the olden  days and still just like a shadow nowadays.  THE INTERPRETER:  Just like a shadow.  Her mouth is dry.  MR. GRANT: Want to go off the record for a minute?  MR. GOLDIE:  Jessie Olson?  THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    This feast occurred in August of this year,  isn't that       right?  A    Yes. Q    This was a funeral  feast?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    Nodding for the record affirmatively.  Who was invited  to your sister's feast from the other tribes?  A    (In English)  Who's Came in the funeral,  you have to call  them in,  into the feast. 26  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    Who came in?  A    Everybody.  Q    The Reporter has to take this down.  Who came in at the  funeral has to be called in at the feast, is what she  said.  Go ahead?  A     (In English)  Because they want all the people,  all their  friends, my sister, sitting down on the table that came  from — some of the people came from Skeena Crossing,  some of them Moricetown.  Some of them Kispiox.  All of  Kispiox came in.  I think all the people in our village  of Glen Vowell,  they came in there.  Q    Was the feast at night    A    Yes.  Q      after the funeral?  A    Yes.  Q    At this feast who ran the feast:  Who supervised what  went on at the feast?  A    All of them.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  She was the supervisor and John Olson.  MR.  GRANT:  Xhliimlaxha?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, Xhliimlaxha.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     Prior to the feast, the funeral feast and prior to the  burial is there another feast called a smoke feast?  A     (In English)  There's smoke feast ahead of time before  the funeral.  Q    What happens at the smoke feast?  A    They pass smoke around,  sitting down and some cookies  all kinds of junk.  Candy.  Q    Who is invited to the smoke?  A    Well, they invite quite a few. . . .  THE INTERPRETER:  Quite a few Chiefs.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    What Chiefs attended the smoke feast for your sister?  Can you name some of those Chiefs?  A    They're using smoke pipe, I seen it up in Kispiox,  you  know that,  they call it kla'asxw miiyeen, that big thick  one about that big.  They sell it in the olden days.  You see,  Granny used to buy some when the smoke feast        and cut them,  just cut a little bit and give it to the  simooget,  and everyone sitting down at the smoke feast 27  BROWN , M .  In Chief  Mr. Grant  and put them in the smoke pipe and everybody smoking  big,  smoke pipe.  I seen it,  when I seen the smoke feast  in Kispiox for a Wolf.  Q    Did some of the people speak at the smoke feast?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    What do they speak about at the smoke feast?  A    They thank all the people,  the one who put up the smoke  feast,  the same way with that big feast too.  You have  to stand up and say thank you for the tables.  Q    These are the guests that stand up and thank the people?  A    Yes.  Q    How long before the funeral is the smoke feast?  A    Couple of days.  Before the memorial service they put up  the smoke feast.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    At the feast,  after the funeral,  are the people fed?  Are they given food?  A    Yes.  They give them some bread,  some apples or  anything.  All kinds of fruit.  Q    Earlier we were talking about Paul Xhliimlaxha's  feast  and you described what were given out there; in the old  days was fish given out at the feast?  A    Yes,  they toast the fish before they,  you know.  See  what they did nowadays is having the soup before  everything's  coming out.  They toast the fish.  Q    Just a moment.  Just give her time.  They had the fish  before in the old days?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    Nowadays they use soup?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    After the soup they give people gifts,  is that correct?  A    Yes.  Q    Where did the people get the fish from that they used?  A    They used it — they dry fish in the summer time.  They  use -- dry about 4,000 fish in the summer.  Q    Yes?  A    They never threw the heads away and the fish eggs,  they  never threw away.  They keep it.  Q    Yes?  A    Everything  what they had in the fish they dried it for  dog food even they dried humps, pinks and the dog  salmon for dog food.  Q    They dried the humps, pinks and dog salmon.  After they served the soup what did you do then at 28  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  your sister's feast after the soup was served?  A    They passed the bread. And apples. After they finish  they pass the fruit. After they all finish passing  everything,  all the bread and the fruit and the apples,  everything,  then they put up a bowl right in the middle.  Q    Can I stop you for a minute?  Who receives the bread and  the fruit?  A   Well,  who is sitting on the table.  Q    Would that be tribes other than the Wolf tribe?  A    Frogs and Fireweed.  Q    Was there enough bread and fruit to go to everyone that  was sitting there:  MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me, are we talking about the Olson feast?  MR. GRANT:  Yes, go from the old to the new.  MR. GOLDIE:  I understood the soup had taken place of the fish  so I assumed we are back at the Olson feast.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    I am referring to your sister's feast.  Was there enough  bread and fruit to go to everybody at the tables?      A    Yes,  that's  way enough.  Some of them gets four loaves  of bread.  Some of them got five.  Q    Those were loaves of bread?  A    Yes.  Look at all the helpers,  our dad's side.  They  give them lots of food too.  Get some bread and apples      and everything.  Boxes and boxes.  Q    So besides being paid for helping you the father's side  is given more food as payment for what they've done, is  that right?  THE INTERPRETER: When the question you asked was the workers  got more and the answer is yes.  MR.  GRANT: What else did she say:  THE INTERPRETER:  The name, they boxed them to give it to the  workers  and that's called Xaneext.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Could you tell us how many tables were at your sister's  feast?  A    I don't know, I didn't count it.  Q    Was it a big feast? Was there a lot of people there?  A    Yes,  a lot of people there.  Some of them come from  Skeena crossing.  Some of them Moricetown.  Kispiox down  there.  And all the Glen Vowell and all the Hazelton.  The hall is really full.  Q    Which hall was it in?  A    Hazelton.  Gitanmaaxs.  Q    I interrupted you and you were saying what happened 29  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  after the bread and apples and fruit were given out?  What was done after those things were finished?  Those  things    A    Right after they finished passing all the fruit and they  put up the bowl right in the middle of the floor.  Q    Put the bowl up in the middle of the floor?  A    Yes.  Q    Then what happened?  A   We put all the money in it.  Q    Who announced the money that was being put in?  A   Mary McKenzie I think.  Q    Do you know what her chief's name is?  A    Gyolugyet.  Q    Paragraph 14 of the Statement of Claim for the record.  She's got her own house but she is in Lax Gibuu,  is that right?  A    Yes.  Q    For example, when you put in the $1,200 is that  announced as money put in by Xhliimlaxha?  A    Mm-mm.  Q     Is that announced for everyone at the feast who — to  witness?  A    Yes.  They using microphone and standing where the  microphone is and how much one of us put in, and they  tell us in the microphone and everybody knows.  Q     I know a microphone may not have been used,  but is that  what was done in the feasts in the old days?  A    It happens in the olden days but they don't use money.  I told you many times they don't use money.  They use  moose skin and ground hog skin.  That's all they used in  the olden days.  I seen them use it in Kispiox when they  put up the totem pole, they used moose skin.  The old  man, Walter Geel,  used to go up all over there where the  Hagwilget are.  They find the moose skin there.  Q    To the east where the carrier live, is that right?  A    Yes, and went up to Telkwa,  Houston and tried to get  some moose skin because people make moose skin before.  Nowadays they don't made it.  They sold it for about  three dollars a skin in the olden days.  Q     Is that for the whole skin?  A    Yes.  It's really nice, soft,  the way they made it.  Q    Would a Chief like Xhliimlaxha in the old days have put  moose skin in instead of money?  A    Yes.  Q    Or several moose skins?  A    Yes.  Q    What was done with the moose skin in the old days? 30  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  A     (In English)  They cut them up, one moose skin is cut in  four and they're giving it to the big Chief, head  Chief.  Every one of them head Chief they get quarter of  that moose skin and, square,  about that big.  It is good  enough to make moccasin for them.  They give it to all  sitting down beside the simooget.  Q    Would it have been announced how much moose skin was put  in by   A     (In English)  They told the same way,  little bit same  nowadays, announced everything what was put in, and they  don't.  Computers not there, making how much hawal.  They mention it out.  You have to shout in the door,  no  nothing there.  In the olden days, you have to shout and  tell all the peoples how much you put in.  Q    Would one person announce what each of the people put  in?  A    Yes.  Q    One person would do that announcing.  At your sister's  feast were any names given out at that feast?  A    Axel gets a name.  Q    What name was that?  A    My great granddaughter,  Diana Claremont,  get name,  get  my sister's name. And Axel gets the name  Ts'igiltsilkxw.  MR. GRANT:  Can you spell that?  THE LINGUIST:   T-S apostrophe I-G-I-L-T-S-I-L-K-X-W.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Was that a name in the House of Xhliimlaxha?  A    Mm-mm.  Q     Is your great granddaughter's name in the House of  Xhliimlaxha?  A    Yes.  Q    Now, when those names were given out who announced that  Axel was getting his name?  A    Mary McKenzie.  Q    Was there any particular reason why she did that announcing?  A    Just the only one who knows how to speak.  MR. GRANT:  Let's stop for a moment.   OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Did Axel put money in for his name?  You're nodding  affirmatively.  How much money was put in for Axel's name by 31  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  himself and the people in your house?  A   Axel got $140,  we all gathered together hawal, five,  two,  three.  Q    He put in 140?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    How was his name announced?  What happens when he got  his name? Mary announced it and did the other Chiefs do  anything?  A    They call the name.  Q    Did they call things with the name?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    Can you tell me what his name means?  A    Ts' igiltsilkxw,  you see the big sun in the day time.  You couldn't see,  just like the light there.  You  couldn't see.  That is why they call it Ts ' igiltsilkxw.  Q    You can't see the sun when you look right at it?  A    Yes.  Q    Do you remember what any of the Chiefs called out for  his name? What they said?  If you want to say it in  Gitksan, that's fine.  A    They call some amxswa,  because his father's amxswa,  try  to call the names and they call it chicken shit.  Q    A-M-X-S-W-A  means white men?  A    Yes.  Q    Some of them called out in English rather than Gitksan?  A    Yes,  they tried to call Ts' igiltsilkxw,  that's why they  said chicken shit, it is really hard.  They tried.  That's when the Indians,  I think they call it really,  all the people dedicate their names,  that is why they  give some money to them.  Some peoples get two dollars,  three dollars.  Like a big Chief.  Q    So as I understand Axel put money in and the other  people put money as hawal, the Wolfe Tribe?  A    Yes.  Q    And when the people called out his name was the money  given out?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    Is this what you're    A   Xkaix.  Q    Just a second,  what does that mean?  THE INTERPRETER:  A token of thanks.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Now,  the money that was put in the bowl at the feast  after the fruit was given out, I think you said earlier  they paid expenses with that money?  A   Mm-mm. 32  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant  Q    And after the expenses were paid who gets the rest of  the money that is left in the bowl?  A   Well,  they give it to all the people for travel  expenses,  that is why they were given the money.  Q    Yes?  A    Because so many peoples are using cars nowadays and  expenses for the gas.  That is why they pass how much  money they have.  Some of the people get $50.  The big  Chief get $50.  The rest of them get 25.  And the kids  nowadays get ten dollars.  That is why the kids, small  little kids, come in the feasts nowadays.  Q    But in the old days they didn't?  A   No, they don't allow us to go over there.  My great  grandmother was into a feast and I used to sit behind  the chair where my great grandmother was and who seen me  when they pass the bread and the fruit, anything,  and  they give me small,  little bits.  That's all I get.  Q    In the old days did you have to have your name to be at  the feast?  A    Yes,  they're supposed to be having a name.  Indian name,  before they get into feast.  Q    Yes?  A    They call it where you're going to sit, when you have  your name and they have to get it ready to get a chair  for you.  Q    After the money is given out what happens then at the  feast?  A   Well,  some Chiefs stand up and. .. .    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  The Chiefs stand up and thank the Chief who have     spent all  their money.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Did anyone from the Wolf tribe talk about your  territories at the feast?  A    (In English)  No,  they don't talk about territory  things.  In the old days they used to talk about it.  Nowadays is feast doesn't talk anything about territory,  and anjok too. Q    Were you at the  feasts in the olden days when they did  talk about the territory?  A   Mm-mm.  Q    What did they say about the territory at those feasts?  A    They're telling the people how many of their family to  go up their ansilinisxw hunting ground and anjok. 33  BROWN, M.  In Chief  Mr. Grant    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  IN GITKSAN  THE INTERPRETER:  Hunting ground.  Mr. Grant: What is anjok?  THE INTERPRETER:  Fishing ground.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q    How long did your feast for your sister go on? When did it start and  when did it end?  A    They start about seven o'clock. About 6.30 we went down        there. Some  big Chiefs kind of late. They start about  7.30.  Q    Yes?  A   And we all through about 1.30 I think .  Q    One thirty in the morning?  A   Mm-mm.  MR. GRANT:  I was going to move into another area so maybe  we'll adjourn this and we'll be talking to the other  lawyers and see if we can arrange to meet with you  tomorrow.  All right?  THE WITNESS:   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Is this enough for today?  THE WITNESS:  Well, maybe that's enough for today.  I have got  lots of work to do in the house.  I've got to mop my  floor.  MR. GRANT:  Go off the record.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL 10.00 a.m. 19  SEPTEMBER,  1985.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a transcript of the  proceedings herein taken from a  video tape recording with the  assistance of Susan Marsden,  Linguist,  to the best of my skill  and ability.  Veronica Harper ( Ms.)  Official Court Reporter  Ire-Jan.  10/86 B.C.S.R.A.  #263  vh-/Feb. 10/86

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