Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Jessie Sterritt Vol. 3] British Columbia. Supreme Court Oct 7, 1987

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 1 OLD HAZELTON, B.C.  2 October 7, 1987  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 10:00 a.m.)  5  6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MRS. KOENIGSBERG:  7 Q   This is a continuation of the commission evidence of  8 Mrs. Jessie Sterritt. And Mrs. Sterritt, you are  9 still under oath from when you gave your evidence  10 previously; is that correct?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Mrs. Sterritt, my name is Marvyn Koenigsberg, I'm here  13 on behalf of the Attorney General of Canada, and I  14 would just like to ask you a few questions which come  15 from the evidence that you gave before. First, I  16 would like to ask you about the Houses with which you  17 are associated. From your previous testimony, I  18 understand that you are the Chief and I'm going to try  19 and pronounce these names of the House of Wii'goob'l.  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And that is spelled W-I-I-G-O-O-B-L; is that correct?  22 THE INTERPRETER: Do we answer that? We are not into the  23 spelling.  24 MRS. KOENIGSBERG: I understand that.  25 MR. RUSH: That's our spelling.  26 MRS. KOENIGSBERG: I do this for the reporter.  27 MR. RUSH: And I should point out that's not the spelling in  the  28 statement of claim. In the statement of claim it's  29 W-I-I-'-G-O-O-B-'-L.  30 MRS. KOENIGSBERG:  31 Q   Okay. Is there also a House called -- is it Bii'niks?  32 A   Bii'niks and Wii'goob'l are one.  33 Q   They are the same House?  34 A   The same House.  35 Q   Bii'niks is the name of a Chief of the House of  36 Wii'goob'l?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And do I understand that Bii'niks would have no  39 territory of its own separate from that of Wii'goob'l?  40 A   Bii'niks and Skiik'm lax ha, Wii'goob'l all own the  41 same territory.  42 Q   My next question was about Skiik'm lax ha. Skiik'm  43 lax ha does not have territory separate from that of  44 Wii'goob'l; is that correct? Is that what you are  45 saying?  46 A   That's what we said, yes.  47 Q   Now there is another house and I don't know how I'm 2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  MR.  8  sep  9  MRS  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  going to try and pronounce this one. My spelling is  A-Y-A-W-A-S-X-W, and I believe the person that holds  that name is Martha Fargey; is that correct?  Yes.  Could you pronounce that name for me?  Ayawasxw.  RUSH: Excuse me. Two questions there, maybe just  irate  them. You were focusing on the name and then --  . KOENIGSBERG:  Is that -- is that the name of a House?  It belongs -- the name belongs to our House.  And it is the name of a chief then?  Yes.  Yes. And could you pronounce that name for me?  Ayawasxw.  Ayawasxw?  Ayawasxw.  The next House or name I would like to ask you about  is -- is it Gyetm galdoo? Is that the name of a  House?  It all belongs to -- Gyetm galdoo is the Head Chief  but we are all members of that House.  Okay. So let me understand, are you saying that  Wii'goob'l, Bii'niks, Skiik'm lax ha, and the one that  starts with an "A" --  Ye s, Ayawa sxw.  -- are all members of the same House as Gyetm galdoo?  Yes.  And if you were to refer to that House by one name,  would you refer to it as Gyetm galdoo as opposed to  Wii'goob'l, for instance?  Yes.  Now, you told me before that Wii'goob'l, Bii'niks and  Skiik'm lax ha all share the same territory, correct?  Yes.  Does Gyetm galdoo have territory separate from the  territory shared by the previous three?  Yes, he has a separate territory.  Is there a house called Skawil or Skawil?  No. It all belongs to the same House.  All right.  Is Skawil a chief's name in the House of  Wii'goob'l?  Yes.  Today, is the person that holds the name Gyetm galdoo  Sylvester Green?  Yes.  All right. And we have -- I've already established 1 that Mrs. Sterritt holds the name of Wii'goob'l. Does  2 Charlotte Sullaven hold the name of Bii'niks?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And we've talked about Martha Fargey. Who holds the  5 name Skawil today?  6 A   Brian Dywad holds the name today.  7 Q   Brian. And can you spell the last name for me?  8 MR. STERRIT:  D-Y-W-A-D.  9 MRS. KOENIGSBERG:  10 Q   Have I named all of the chiefs of the House of  11 Wii'goob'l or Gyetm galdoo?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Now I would like to ask you some questions about what  14 we will call the genealogy of the --of the name  15 Wii'goob'l. I understand, Mrs. Sterritt, that your  16 mother's name was Ester Joseph?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Did she have a chief's name?  19 THE INTERPRETER: She does not remember.  20 A   She went by the name Hahl yee.  21 Q   Can you spell that name?  22 A   Maybe Neil will spell it.  23 MR. STERRIT: Hahl yee, H-A-H-L Y-E-E, that's two separate  words  24 MS. KOENIGSBERG  25 Q    I understand that when you were very small you lived  26 with your mother, Ester Joseph, in the long house  27 belonging to Gyetm galdoo; is that correct?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   Do you know who your grandmother on your mother's side  30 was?  31 THE INTERPRETER: No, she doesn't remember that. She died  32 before Jessie was born.  33 A   I only remember the aunt.  34 Q   And the aunt is Lucy Morrison?  35 A   No, not Lucy Morrison. Lucy Morrison was my mother's  36 sister. The aunt is on the father's side, and she --  37 Nox Wookxw, I don't think she had an English name at  38 the time.  39 THE INTERPRETER: That's the aunt on her father's side. Oh,  40 your mother's side, yeah, pardon me.  41 Q   All right. There was an aunt who was the sister of  42 your mother's mother; is that what you are telling me,  43 that you remember?  44 THE INTERPRETER: Will you run that by us again?  45 Q   Are we talking about an aunt who would have been the  46 sister of Mrs. Sterritt's grandmother?  47 THE INTERPRETER: She's the aunt on -- oh, your mother's  father 1 so that is your -- it was her mother's aunt on her  2 father's side.  3 Q   All right. And she doesn't recall the name; is that  4 correct?  5 A   Not the English name.  6 MR. RUSH: She recalls the Gitksan name.  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  8 Q   Does she know the Gitksan name?  9 A   Yeah, that's the one.  10 Q   What is it?  11 A    Nox Wookxw.  12 Q   Can you spell that?  13 MR. STERRIT:  N-O-X, and another word, W-O-O-K-X-W.  14 MRS. KOENIGSBERG:  15 Q   Did the aunt that you've just described -- whom you've  16 just described, live in the long house of Gyetm  17 galdoo?  18 A   No, she did not live. She originated from -- she  19 originated from Hagwilget but when we moved out of the  20 long house into the nuclear houses she would come and  21 stay with us.  22 Q    I previously asked you if you were talking about Lucy  23 Morrison when you mentioned an aunt. Lucy Morrison  24 was your mother's sister?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And there was another sister, or your aunt as well on  27 your mother's side?  28 A   Yes. Her name is Nox Ganii.  29 Q   Yes. Were those all of the sisters that you knew on  30 your mother's side?  31 A   That's all I remember, yes.  32 Q    I believe you said that your memory and what you know  33 is that your family -- and now I'm talking about your  34 mother and her mother were from Gitanmaax; is that  35 correct?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q    Is there an adaawk or a story that you know which  38 tells you if they -- where they came before they were  3 9       in Gitanmaax?  40 A    No.  41 Q   Is there an adaawk of where the people came from that  42 belongs to the house of Wii'goob'l?  43 A   No. As far as she knows they have always lived in  44 Gitanmaax.  45 Q   All right.  Is there an adaawk of, I'll call it the  46 origin of where the people came from, of Gyetm galdoo  47 that you know of? 1 A    No.  2 Q   Okay. I would like to ask you some questions about  3 traplines on - - a trapline on Wii'goob'l's territory.  4 Do you or did you know a person by the name of Arthur  5 Loring?  6 A   I know him.  7 Q    Is Arthur Loring still alive?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   What is his relationship to you?  10 A   No. I'm Gitksan and he is a white man.  11 Q    Is -- he is not Gitksan?  12 A    No.  13 Q   He is not a member of the house of Wii'goob'l; is that  14 correct?  15 A   No.  16 Q   Do you know that he has a trapline on the territory of  17 Wii'goob'l?  18 A   I did not know previously, just after Jonathon Brown  19 died I realized that.  20 Q   Did Arthur Loring have permission to have a trapline  21 on Wii'goob'l's territory?  22 A    No.  23 Q   Now, is Martha Ridsdale your daughter?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And she holds the name Ayawasxw?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And that's the name I've been having trouble  28 pronouncing?  2 9 A   Yes.  30 Q   She answered some questions called interrogatories on  31 behalf of Wii'goob'l. Did you know that?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And did you work with her to answer the questions in  34 the interrogatories about Wii'goob'l?  35 A   She approached me and told me about it, and because I  36 know that she has all the knowledge, I told her to go  37 ahead with it.  38 Q   Okay. I'm going to ask you about one of the questions  3 9       which was asked and the answer that was given, and it  40 is question -- or -- and answer 24 of the  41 interrogatories, which were sworn by Martha Ridsdale  42 on the 19th day of February, 1987.  43 MR. RUSH: Do you want me to place these in front of her?  44 MRS. KOENIGSBERG: Yes, please, if you will.  45 The question which is not on the sheet in front of  46 you but which I'll just read to you --  47 MR. RUSH: It's the previous. 1  THE  2  MS.  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  THE  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  INTERPRETER: The one before?  KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, starts on the page before. "What are the names,  places of residence, ages and occupations of the  members of your House?" And this is the House of  Wii'goob'l. After that the answer reads, "The members  of my House whom I recall at this time and their  places of residence and approximate ages are:" and  then on page 6 and 7 following, there is a heading  that says "Wii'goob'l House Members", and a list which  begins with Sylvester Green and ends with Steven  Skawil; do you see that?  Yes.  Can you confirm that those are the members of the  House of Wii'goob'l and that to the best of your  knowledge, the ages indicated there and the residences  indicated there are true?  Yes, these are all the members of our House. And the  only difference you would like to point out is Steven  Skawil and Bob who are both deceased were adopted into  the house.  Steven Skawil which is the last name on the list is  now deceased?  Yes.  And he was adopted --  Yes.  - - you say? And who was the other person?  Bob Skawil. He has been dead for a number of years  now.  Can you just help me with where his name is on the  list.  INTERPRETER: I don't think his name is on here.  He was a member?  He was.  I don't -- I didn't remember - -  I don't think it's on here. Yeah, he died quite a  while. These are the ones that are alive now when  this list was made. Some of them have passed on  since.  Okay. And there have been no new members of the  House?  No.  Can you tell me if any of the members of this House  who are indicated here, work as commercial fishermen?  No. None of the ones that are in Hazelton here -- in  Gitanmaax are fishermen. Some of the ones that live  down Prince Rupert could very well be. 1  Q  2  3  4  MR.  5  MS.  6  Q  7  A  8  THE  25  9  10  Q  11  THE  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  MR.  36  MS.  37  MR.  L-A  38  39  MS.  40  Q  41  42  43  MR.  44  MS.  45  Q  46  47  7  All right. And do you recall, Mrs. Sterritt, if any  members of your House worked in the canneries of the  coast?  RUSH:  Ever?  KOENIGSBERG:  Yes. Ever, to her knowledge?  Yes. They worked for long time in the canneries.  INTERPRETER: She recalls working in Port Essin (sic) for  cents an hour.  Mrs. Sterritt herself did?  INTERPRETER: Yes. Were many canneries but she worked at  Port Edward in the later part.  Port Essin or Port Edward, sorry?  Port Edward.  Port Edward.  I ceased working in the canneries when I acquired a  steady job up at the Wrinch Memorial Hospital.  When was that?  Around '52. I worked for 15 years, I retired in 1967  up at the Wrinch Memorial Hospital.  Thank you. Now, can you tell me who Abel Oakes is?  I know of Abel Oakes but he does not belong to our  House, he is a Wolf.  He is a member of the Wolf Clan?  Yes.  He is a Gitksan person?  Yes.  Do you know what House he belonged to?  The House of Gwoimt.  And was he a Chief?  Yes.  What was his Chief's name.  He holds several names, among them Dee Naa laxhax.  Could you spell those two names?  RUSH: Mr. Sterritt will spell it.  KOENIGSBERG: Dee was the first one?  STERRITT: Naa laxhax was the first one, N-A-A,  -X-H-A-X,  second name was Dee, D-E-E.  KOENIGSBERG:  Now I just like to go back briefly and ask you a few  more questions about who has held the chiefs' names in  your House, or Gyetm galdoo's House. First the --  RUSH: Maybe you could start the question over?  KOENIGSBERG:  I want to ask you about the names, or the persons who  have held the chiefs' names in the House of Gyetm  galdoo and Wii'goob'l. 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  MR.  34  MS.  35  Q  36  37  THE  38  Q  39  40  THE  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  Q  8  Did Sylvester Green take the name Gyetm galdoo  from Thomas Danes?  Yes.  And was that Thomas Danes --  After Thomas died.  Was Thomas -- was that Thomas Danes Senior or Junior?  Junior.  And you were married to Thomas Danes?  Yes.  And is that the same Thomas Danes who was Gyetm  galdoo?  No.  What was the relationship, if any, of the Thomas Danes  to whom you were married and the Thomas Danes who held  the name Gyetm galdoo?  Thomas Sr. was the father of Thomas Jr.  And Mrs. Sterritt was married to Thomas Sr.?  Yes.  I understand that Thomas Danes received the name from  Charlie Clifford Sr.?  Yes.  Who in turn received the name from James White?  Yes.  Who in turn received the name from Alexander Mowatt?  Yes.  Who in turn received the name from a person known to  me only as Tommy Muldoe's father?  Yes.  Can you give me a better description of the person  known as Tommy Muldoe's father, do you know his name?  Skawa djeek was his name.  Could you spell that, Mr. Sterritt?  STERRITT:  S-K-A-W-A, D-J-E-E-K.  KOENIGSBERG:  Was Tommy Muldoe the father or any other relation to  either Peter or Kenney Muldoe?  INTERPRETER: Can you run that by again?  Yes. We talked about Tommy Muldoe's father who held  the name Gyetm galdoo.  INTERPRETER:  Ye s, okay.  Was the Tommy Muldoe who would have been the son of  Gyetm galdoo, was he the father of either Peter or  Kenney Muldoe?  No. Peter Muldoe was the son of Tommy Muldoe's  brother. Yeah, Tommy Muldoe had a brother named  Billy, and that's Pete Muldoe's father, yes.  And does she know who the father of Kenney Muldoe was? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  MR  7  MS  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Peter Muldoe.  So if I can try and understand this, Kenney Muldoe's  father is Peter Muldoe, and Peter Muldoe is the son of  Billy Muldoe who was the brother of Tommy Muldoe?  Yes.  RUSH: Congratulations.  KOENIGSBERG:  Okay. I would like to ask you a little bit about  Skiik'm lax ha. Johnny Wilson presently holds that  name?  Yes.  And Daniel Skawil held the name before Johnny Wilson?  Yes.  And did Johnny Wilson take the name from Daniel  Skawil?  Yes.  And did Daniel Skawil take the name from John Johnson?  I have Johnson but also Nagun or Nagun?  Yes. Yes, he was a brother of Bii'niks.  Nagun?  Nagun.  Was the brother of Bii'niks?  Um-hmm.  Was John Nagun the father of Simon Gunanoot and Daniel  Skawil?  Daniel Skawil was brother of Simon's father.  Okay, thank you. That helps a lot.  Okay. Now I would like to ask you a little bit  about Bii'niks. At one time Daniel Skawil held the  name Bii'niks; is that correct?  Yes.  And then that name went from Daniel Skawil to Phillip  Morrison?  Yes.  And Phillip Morrison, as I understand it, was your  Aunt Lucy Morrison's husband?  Grandson.  Phillip Morrison was Lucy Morrison's grandson?  Grandson.  Was Lucy Morrison married to someone by the name of  Morrison?  Phillip Morrison.  So there is a Phillip Morrison who was married to Lucy  Morrison, whose grandson eventually became Bii'niks?  Yes.  Did Phillip Morrison hold a chief's name, Phillip  Morrison who was married to Lucy Morrison? 10  Yes, he had one, but I've forgotten.  All right. Were Phillip Morrison and Daniel Skawil  related  by blood?  No.  Now let's talk about Wii'goob'l. You took the name  Wii'goob'l from Albert Brown?  Yes.  Are you related by blood to Albert Brown?  Yes, he is very close to us.  What is your blood relationship to Albert Brown?  I can't tell you in detail just how I am related to  him, but all I know is all my life I've known him to  be very close to us.  Was he related to Jonathon Brown?  We are talking about Albert?  Yes?  Jonathon was the son of Albert.  I don't think I asked you this, but do you have a  blood relationship to Daniel Skawil?  Yes.  And what is that relationship?  He is my uncle.  And on -- would he have been your mother's brother,  Ester?  Yes. In the House we look at things a little  differently than your society would, that even though  there isn't a close blood relation, they were all one.  Okay. Let me just see if I can understand that. When  you tell me that Daniel Skawil was your mother's  brother, you may not -- you may not mean that in the  sense of the white man's law or rules of who's related  to who, is that what you mean?  RUSH: Wait, wait. I think you should simplify that just  little bit.  KOENIGSBERG:  I think she understands.  It's kind of hard to explain because your laws and  your ways are different from ours.  Okay. Let me ask you if you know if Daniel Skawil and  your mother Ester Joseph had the same mother or  father?  I can't answer that, I don't remember.  Right. So it could be, but that's not the basis that  you are telling me that he is your uncle?  Yes, that's right.  INTERPRETER: She recalled her uncle telling her not to  47       concerned with other things but just to make sure that  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  a  34  35  MS.  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  THE  be 11  1 the territory is cared for.  2 Q   That's the Uncle Daniel Skawil?  3 A   Yes.  4 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Those are all my questions. Just a moment.  5 I'm going to just take a very brief break and see if I  6 have any other questions.  7  8 (SHORT RECESS TAKEN)  9  10 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I would just like to mark as an exhibit on  11 this commission, the three pages from the affidavit of  12 Martha Ridsdale which contain question 24 and the  13 answers, and that's pages 5, 6, and 7 of that.  14 MR. RUSH: With your handwriting here.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Is my handwriting on here?  16 MR. RUSH: Yes. It says "deceased" by Steven Skawil.  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  18 MR. RUSH: Do you want to mark these ones?  19 MRS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  20 MR. RUSH: And do you want me to look after these and get you  21 copies since I have generally been the custodian of  22 the exhibits?  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I would be happy if you could do that with  24 the exhibit stamp.  25  26 (EXHIBIT 11 - Pages 5, 6, and 7 from Affidavit of  27 Martha Ridsdale)  28  29 MRS. KOENIGSBERG:  Those are all the questions I have of you,  30 Mrs. Sterritt. Thank you very much.  31 MR. RUSH: Jessie, I have some questions in redirect.  32  33 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:  34 Q    I just have one or two, they are questions of  35 clarification. Tommy Danes Sr., you said that you  36 were married to him?  37 A   Yes. In our -- I was married to him by our own laws.  38 Q   Yes. What House was Tommy Danes Sr. in?  3 9 A   What's Victor's name? Victor -- something Lahaniwai  40 (ph) .  41 THE INTERPRETER: She can't recall the name of the House but  she  42 knows it.  43 Q    Is -- okay. You can't remember the name now?  44 THE INTERPRETER: She can't remember right now what the name  is.  45 Q    Is -- is it the House of Gitludahl -- sorry, is he  46 from the House, or was he from the House of Gutginuxw?  47 A   Yes, that's right. 12  1 Q   Jessie, you said there were two Phillip Morrisons, do  2 you remember saying that?  3 A Yes.  4 Q Which one was related to Dan Skawil?  5 A Young Phillip.  6 Q Young, okay. Phillip Morrison was Phillip's --  7 A He was named after his grandfather Phillip Morrison.  8 Q Okay. Young Phillip Morrison was related to Dan  9 Skawil?  10 A   Yes. His grandfather was a Wolf.  11 MR. RUSH: Thank you, Jessie, that's all I have.  12  13 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 10:45 a.m.)  14  15 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  16 a true and accurate transcript of the  17 proceedings herein transcribed to the  18 best of my skill and ability.  19  20  21  22  23  24 Toni Kerekes,  25 O.R., R.P.R.  26 United Reporting Service Ltd.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 13  1 HAZELTON, B.C.  2 October 7, 1987  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 1:30 p.m.)  5  6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MRS. RUSSELL:  7 Q   Mr. Gunanoot, you know you are still under oath, don't  8 you?  9 A   What?  10 Q   You know you are still under oath, you are sworn to  11 tell the truth and you are still under oath from your  12 last examination?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Okay. Mr. Gunanoot, I'm putting a document in front  15 of you. Do you recognize this document?  16 A   I forgot my glass.  I was -- she really want to know  17 about this?  18 Q   Do you recognize this signature, Mr. Gunanoot?  19 A   Yeah.  20 Q   Whose signature is that?  21 A   Yeah, that's my writing.  22 Q   And you signed that document?  23 A   Yeah. I know this man too, and --  24 Q   And he is pointing to the second signature on the  25 document.  26 MR. GRANT: And for the record, you were pointing to the 14  6 signature of David Gunanoot on the bottem left-hand  7 side.  8 MRS. RUSSELL:  9 Q   And who is this man, Mr. Gunanoot, the second  10 signature on the document?  11 A   Peter Alfred Shanoss. He died long time ago.  12 Q   And do you remember what this document was?  13 A   Not very much. Bob Skawil --  14 MR. GRANT: Just for the record, he is just reading over the  15 document and the names, I think.  16 A   The glass.  17 MR. GRANT: The magnifying glass. Can we just go off the  record  18 for a moment.  19 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  20 A   Two sons, Bob Skawil and Steve Skawil. What's that?  21 MR. GRANT: That says devise.  22 A   To take back. Too bad Jerry was too busy, I would  23 have tried to take him along. He would read to us.  24 My land in Hazelton, B.C., my two sons, Bob Skawil and  25 Steve Skawil, in witness -- and what witness whereof,  26 I haven't -- I have in my hand this twelfth date of.  27 You and   he -- oh, and he, named Daniel Skawil, in the  28 presence of us -- was both present at the same time  29 with, at his, and in his presence.  30 MRS. RUSSELL:  Okay.  31 A   And have -- here I am stuck again.  32 MR. GRANT: That word is subscribed.  33 A   Yes. You named as - - your names as witness, David  34 Gunanoot, Mr. P.A. Shanoss.  35 MRS. RUSSELL: Great, thank you. May we have this marked,  36 please. This will be an exhibit on commissioned  37 evidence of Mr. David Gunanoot.  38  3 9        (EXHIBIT 5 - Document signed by D. Gunanoot and P.A.  40       Shanoss)  41  42 MRS. RUSSELL:  43 Q   Mr. Gunanoot, you registered a trapline in 1937,  44 didn't you?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Was this the application to register that trapline?  47 A   Application maybe, I don't know. I should have. 15  1 Q   Pardon me?  2 A   I should have. Who made this out? Indian agent?  3 A   Yeah, I did register that trapline. Long time ago we  4 don't register no trapline at all, but it's too many  5 white people coming in and doing this and registering  6 the trapline, take it away from the Indians, that's  7 why the -- that's why the Indian agent tell us Indians  8 to register the trapline, to take your name, coming in  9 and register our trapline and no more for them.  10 Q   Mr. Gunanoot, on this it says you were a fisherman and  11 a trapper. Where did you fish?  12 A   I fish -- fisherman and trapper. I fishing up to  13 Gisaga'as and trapped up to -- trapped up to -- around  14 Stewart.  15 Q   Did you fish commercially?  16 A   Yes. My own grandfather long time ago took out a fish  17 traps there, three big rock. This is the river, there  18 is one, there is one trap right there, and another  19 trap, that's three of them all lined up. Well they  20 still keep it and all the people from Gisaga'as used  21 to go up there and get all the fish, they drag all the  22 fish up to Canyon Creek they call it. That's the  23 place where the fishing do and the old man, Nii Kyap,  24 used to -- used to -- gave them out, dried fish -- dry  25 fish. And then until way late before Christmas they  26 still keep on catching those steelheads around that  27 river.  28 Q   Okay, good. You have -- you had a brother named Alec  2 9       Gunanoot, didn't you?  30 A   That's right.  31 Q   Did Alec fish commercially?  32 A   What?  33 Q   Did Alec go and fish with a commercial licence?  34 A   Yeah. That Alec was -- was been up to one of the  35 Hedley Mine up there, he had a store until he get  36 T.B. The government put a sign on, no more --no  37 more selling groceries to anybody else. And Alec  38 coming in and he had already -- ready to take my -- my  39 brother's place, died, Fred, Fred Gunanoot. And Alec  40 was standing around and the next time there comes my  41 mother, too, slipping, crushed her hip bone. And  42 there is a time also when I took my -- I took Alec in.  43 I get two trips, Billy Moat, and my mother blanket. I  44 don't know what to do, too much for me to take to  45 double up the chiefs, but My mother said, "You can do  46 it, you can do it, they allow you to do it." I still  47 keep on going. 16  1 Q   David, did Alec fish at the coast?  2 A   Alec come down that time but he can't even do a thing  3 at all, so I told him, "I'll slip you, I'll slip you.  4 I'll take my mother's head chief and I'll slip both on  5 you." That's only the business. The easiest way I  6 can make it for you on the ground. You have to get  7 enough money, you said, "Yeah. How much money you  8 get? I got none." Now there you are.  I don't know  9 how many I'm going to spend on this, about 900 or what  10 we are going to spend. And my grandmother and I made  11 on my mother, and I did too. I spent that 900 and all  12 the groceries, that goes up to 14, 1400 altogether. I  13 spent that time.  14 Q   Before Alec took the name Moat, did he go to fish at  15 the coast?  16 A   Moat?  17 Q   Before Alec took the name Moat, did Alec fish on a  18 fishing boat at the coast?  19 A   At the coast? Oh yeah. He fish sometimes, not very  20 much, because he always kind of sick, that's why. But  21 me, I am different. I working for Premier Mine and  22 they call it -- they call it Riverside, Alaska,  23 tungsten, is the place where we been working too at,  24 and at Hagwilget.  25 MR. GRANT: And the which?  26 A   Hagwilget, what they call across the Stewart the  27 Hagwilget, seven river or -- I mean -- I mean Marmot,  28 Marmot Creek they call it.  2 9 MR. GRANT: Marmot Creek.  30 A   I had -- I come down - - I go down to - - go down to  31 town again. Now next time I took off going up to --  32 they got my name, I going up to Granduke. Well,  33 that's the time I been there for an awful long time.  34 Good money too. Lot of money I made there, that's why  35 I didn't even stop -- I didn't even stop everything  36 I'm doing.  37 MRS. RUSSELL: This is long after, but may we mark the  trapline  38 application, please.  39 MR. GRANT: Maybe, because I think it's appropriate if it goes  40 in, that the --  41 MRS. RUSSELL: Mr. Grant, you can do this in re-examination.  42 MR. GRANT: No, no. I'm saying this is part of the document.  43 There is through -- through your offices you provided  44 the entire document, this is the -- and I propose that  45 the document that you --  46 MRS. RUSSELL: I consent. You don't have to bother to explain  47 it, you can put it in because I don't think it matters 17  1 at all. The witness has not identified these other  2 parts of the document but Mr. Grant would like the  3 entire document to go in and I take no objection to it  4 at this time.  5  6        (EXHIBIT 6 - Trapline Application)  7  8 MRS. RUSSELL:  9 Q   Did your mother, Sara, inherit a trapline from Moses  10 Nii Kyap?  11 A   Moses?  12 Q   Did your mother, Sara, inherit a trapline from Moses  13 Nii Kyap?  14 A   Moses you say? Moses is never had no trapline.  15 Q   No? An area south of Kuldoe near the Skeena River?  16 A   Yes, he is got a little place and after that he raised  17 those -- those cows, that's what the old man used to  18 do, looking after those cows. But he do it -- his  19 wife died, well he just about clean all those cows,  20 kill them all and partly for the people into feasting  21 time. And when -- when they died too, no more cows  22 around.  23 Q   But did he give a trapline to your mother?  24 A   He gave-- no. He had nothing to do with Gisaga'as.  25 He had a little place above Kispiox.  26 MR. GRANT: He had nothing to do with Gisaga'as. He had a  27 little place above Kispiox; is that right? That's as  28 I've got it.  2 9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Close.  30 A   And those cows, that's all the old man looking after.  31 MRS. RUSSEL:  32 Q   So your mother did not give that trapline to Alec  33 Gunanoot -- sorry, to Reginald Simon?  34 MR. GRANT:  Which?  35 MRS. RUSSELL:  36 Q   You don't remember?  37 A   That's belong to our -- our uncle, Samual Brown you  38 talking about now. That's the place where we had been  3 9       trapping before, after Samual got killed up there.  40 And that's the time I moved down and I get my own  41 trapline up to that Gilbert Lake they call it, Gilbert  42 Lake. Anyway --  43 Q   But you don't remember your brother Simon trapping in  44 an area south of Kuldoe?  45 MR. GRANT:  Sorry.  46 A   Kuldoe?  47 MRS. RUSSELL: 18  1 Q   You don't remember that? It's okay, I'm not trying to  2 confuse him.  3 A   Simon. Simon Gunanoot?  4 MR. GRANT: No, I think you've got the wrong name.  5 MRS. RUSSELL: It's Reginald Simon.  6 MR. GRANT: Okay, you are talking about Reginald.  7 MRS. RUSSELL:  8 Q   Yes. And he was known as Simon, was he not, Mr.  9 Grant?  10 Reginald Simon was called Simon, wasn't he, your  11 brother?  12 A   My brother?  13 Q   And he was known as Simon --  14 A   Oh, yeah.  15 Q    -- but his name was Reginald Simon, right?  16 A   Yeah, uh-huh.  17 Q   Where did Reginald Simon trap?  18 A   No place. He haven't no place to trap. We opened  19 that place where I am up to the side of Bear Lake, but  20 he can't even go out trap himself, only going around  21 town.  22 Q   Okay.  23 A   That would be Joshua McLean is going up there now,  24 with the man is -- is Jackson, he is Jackson. I know  25 his name. Jackson, last name. Robert, Robert  26 Jackson.  27 Q   Okay, Mr. Gunanoot, I'm going to take a very short  28 break but I think those will be all my questions.  29 I'll give you a rest and I'll come back and confirm  30 that. Okay?  31 A   Yeah.  32 MRS. RUSSELL:  Okay.  33 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  34 MR. GRANT:  I've got two questions to ask you, just two.  35  36 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  37 Q   Moses Nii Kyap, did he hold the Head Chief name Nii  38 Kyap?  3 9 A   Yeah. That's -- that's -- it's not right. Look, he  40 even order the headstone to put on Nii Kyap's -- Nii  41 Kyap's grave up to Gisaga'as, but he didn't. He put  42 it right on where he will be buried up to Kispiox, to  43 Kispiox, that's his home, he didn't even do anything  44 about it so they just leave it, it still there.  45 Q   Okay?  46 A   But Nii Kyap's totem-pole is gone down long time ago  47 but they didn't even replace. But they don't care 19  1 about it now, just those blanket like what I got now,  2 that's what they using now.  3 Q And Nii Kyap's pole was at Gisaga'as?  4 A Yeah.  5 Q Okay. Now, was Samual Brown in Nii Kyap's House?  6 A Samual Brown that's supposed to be, yeah, that's very  7 close together. Yeah. They work -- call us as Samual  8 Brown supposed to be our uncle.  9 Q   Okay.  10 A   See they knows I am just too young at that time.  11 Q   Okay.  12 A   Not too old like this.  13 MR. GRANT: Okay, David, those are all my questions. Thank you.  14 MRS. RUSSELL:  Thank you.  15  16 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 2:00 p.m.)  17  18 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  19 a true and accurate transcript of the  20 proceedings herein transcribed to the  21 best of my skill and ability.  22  23  24  25 Toni Kerekes, O.R., R.P.R.  26 United Reporting Service Ltd.  27  28


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