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[Inquiry by inspector of dominion police] [unknown] Sep 30, 1910

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* \   An inquiry held,September 30th at 10 A* M. at
the Detention she 1 an the C. P. R. IWharf, Vancouverf B. C
re certain alledged Chinese Merchants attempting to enter
Canada on the"Empress of China."
Officials present:
Colonel Worsnop t Surveyor and acting Comptroller of Customs
I Mr, J.pB. De B. Farris and Mr. Gordon Grant, CounsAl for the
Dominion Government.
Mr* Martin Griffinf Counsel appearing for: the applicants
Dr. Chang, a Chinese Consul.
|Mr. Lee See, President of the Chinese Chamber of Commerce•
Mr. S. Moon, President, the Citizen Assoc.
Mr. David C. Lew, Official Interpreter.
Mr. Edward Poster, Inspector of Dominion Police.
. ■
Mr. Cumyow, a Chinese Interpreter, appearing at the request
of Mr. Martin Griffon.
W. £• G. Johnson, Official Stenographer.
Mr. McMullen representing the Canadian Pacific Railway.
i 4      & v     Agent
Mr. Foster the General Passenger/G. P. R.
Applicants Young Chow See
Q. Mr. Worsnop: What is your name?
A. Young Chow Kee. •
Q. Any other name?
A. Ho. *
^
Age
A. 24
v*. Married?
A. Yes.
•
Q» Is your wife living?
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A. Yes.
o ' i^-
Q. What is her name?
A. Ohln^ Chee.
Q. Have you any children.
A. Two sons and one daughter•
Q. Name and age of each. ■
4* Chuck Yuen, 14, second! boy Qfteng Yuen aged seven and
girl Hiw Bow aged five.
<4« Where does his family live?
A. Cing Low in*the district of Sing Hing.
Q. What is his business or calling.
i
A. General merchandise. •  *
Q. What is his last plaoe of residence.
A.  Canton City.
Q. Does he intend starting business in CanAda
A. I am looking for business here.
Q. What kind of business. >]
At
A. Merchandise.
Q. General Store?
*v /"
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A. General Merchandise.      *
Q. Has he any partners in business?
Mr. Lew: That is referring to his home?
Mr. Worsnop: Yes, any partners at present?
A. Yes.
Q. How many partners?  V
A. Three including myself.
Q. Give the names.
A* One is Lee Pat Wo. One is Leo Pat Sing,
tj* What i8 their address?
A* Bow Yuen.        * ■■-
Q. Where?
A* Chung Lang Street, Canton City.
Q. How much money is invested in the business fl
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A.  Tho original Capital Wo $30,000
Q. Mexican that v/ould be?
A.  Yes.
$• Bow much has each partner invented.
A. ClO,000. each.
k. Why is he coming to Canada?
A. I am coming to Canadaf to look for business.
Q. To open a branch business does ho mean?
A. Open up a branch business.
hL# Doosihe know where abouts has he made up his mind
A. I heard Vancouver was good
Vancouver and
Van
the Interior.
Q. From whom did he purchase his ticket?
A. Chung Hing Co.
Q. Where are they.
A. Hong Kong.
ft
Q. What is their address in Hong Kong?
A.I asked him what the address was and he said a friend
got it for him.
Q. Who was the friend?
A. Lee Pok Sing.
h. Who is he?
A. He is my partner in business.
Q. Where does he live?
A. He lives In Hong Kong.
<. That is not one of the names you gave before as being a
partner in his business.
A. Yes.
Q. Where do those partners live. I asked before.
A. Live in the store* /
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an the plnoeijrhcre fthey live? Are there threol|>«urt-
/ nors in that firm?
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k* This man says ho livoe In Canton*
A* Yes.
Q# Where does his second partner live.
|A. His business is in Hong Kon : but he lives in Slnr Hing
*.  Has his jiHi:i  a branch in Hong Kong
well as in
Canton?
A. He li interested in my business in Canton City.
(** How much did he pay for his ticket?
A* #86. Gold*
k* Were any conditions asked? Or any guar.artee of landing
given at the time you purchased this ticket.
A. Ho.
Q. Did he have to deposit any i um of money when he bought
his ticket.
A* lo all I paid was 085 gold*
•%. Has he a pass port with him* Merchant's certificate*
A* Yes I have it here*
Q. Produce it.
(Exhibit A* Certificate produced^ and identified by the
Imperial Chinese Majesty's Consul as bearing the
name as the applicant).
Q. What did it cost him to obtain that pass port?
A* #92. Mexican.
k* Anything further?
A. That is all it oost me*
<i* To whom did you pay that $92*
A*
lal
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ft»  Soraeeoffioial. WhKt do
he! me an?
Somef offioial^ln^thefViceroy? *#.
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A. Some official in my district of Sing Hing.
<i. Doesjhe know anybody In Canada.
A* I do not knew anybody*
Q. Did he get that certificate from the same people ae
from whom he got his railway ticket*
A* Ho.
u&hthl
railway ticket*
A Mr. Cumyow: He says he got that certificate from the
Governor of Canton City.
Mr. Lew: The word Governor was never suggested in his
answer• he first said some Court in Canton City and
. then he said some official.
Q. What I want to get at is did he get that pass pert through
the same party as he got his railway ticket* He did not
have to produce that pass port when he purchased his railway ticket.
A* I did not* .
U* He did not have to produce it when he got his railway
ticket?
A* I did not have to produce it.
m.. Did you write to any one over here and tell them you were
coming*
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A* I did not.
Q. How much money have you?
A. |96. in gold*
Q. Has he any draft or money besides that*|
•*
A* Yes I have*
Q. Bow much. ■$
A* #420 gold* |
Q. $420 goldkn addition to the #96.
A. Ho the draft calls for the $420 geld*
Q. On who is that draft drawn* PfT
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A# thi«sf- draft was drawn on Bing Feng Conpany here
U* Are you going to the United States*
a. Be*
Q. Is ho travelling alone or in Company with others*
A* There le s let ef people on beard the boat with me*
Q. He Just net them on board the boat*
A. Just met then on board the boat.
(*• There are no others in the party, then he is Just by
himself,
A* I
alone
(*• Did he know anybody? among* hie fellow pass eng or o In his
last place of residence?
A* Ho wants to know his business or hir village residence*
Q. I Want to kno-? if he knew any of hi»» fellow peseongore
on board the steamer ^rior to meeting them on board tho
steamer.
A* I did not know thorn before*
Q* Has lie ever been in Canada before*
A* no*
Q* How long does he intend to stay here*
A* I cannot tell, it depends on the businoss if there is/
any business at home I nay return in 3 or 6 years*
Mr* ttorrnon: Mr. Farri
wish to ask any questions
Mr. Parris: Yos, the question of the draft will you
press that farther or will I?
Hr* Worsnop: Do you wish to go into that?
A. Yes*
<U Bi* Farris: Ask him if he has his draft on hia?
A. He has it on him.
Mr* Worimop: Th Consul says it is % draft of #420 told*
Q* Mr* Farria: What Is the custom with these when you cheek
them off? t
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A* Mr* Worsnop: They are returned*
Mr* Parris: Is there any method of checking up these
drafts*
Mr. Worsnop: Only by one who understand them.
Mr. Parris: Has the Department any way of doing that
Mr* Worsnop: Ho*
ft* Ask him on whom is this draft drawn.
A* King Peng Company
Q. Where do they live?
A* Vancouver.
Q. Who drew this draft on the King Pong Company*
A* Quong Yick Company, Hong Kong.
Q* What is their business? *
A. Money broker*(private bankers we call them)
Q. Where Is their office?       *
A* Ho. 78 Wing Long.
Q. How did he come to purchase this draft.
A.
banker and he gave me
this draft*
Q* Who told him to do that*
A* My partner told me so*
h,. How much money did he give him. Did he pay for this
draft•
A* My firm have lots of money dealings with this banker
and that is the ^jip  amount I asked him to give me
the draft on.
iharged
araft.
A* I did not see it charged to the account yet.
Q. Did his partners give him any reason for buying the
draft*
A. He did not.
Q% Did he not know himself why he was getting the draft. *•*
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A. That is all the money I required. and that is why I
bought this draft for this amount*
Q* What was he told to do with the draft after he got it*
A* He*
Q* He was not told to do anything with the draft then.
A*
what was he going to do with the draft*
ssary
going to get the money on this draft
A* It would pay on the face of that draft*
*
Q* Who is going to pay it* ft
A* King Pong Company.  g 4
Q* Was he not told how to get the money from Sing Pong Co
What
take
will have the money to pay to you.
Q* You tell him thatKing Pong says this draft is no good
Mr* Griffin: I object, I think that is a hardly fair
*
question to put to him.   v        . .
Mr. Parris: Ask him if he has a lawyer. .
A. I did not instruct any lawyer.
ft* Mr* Parris: Then ask him tho question I put to him.
Mr. Worsnop: I will not ask him the question*   m
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Mr. Parris: Why not?
Mr* Worsnop: We have not King Pong here.
Mr* Parris: I made the investigation and I take the
responsibility for that statement*
Mr* Griffin: I object. .
Mr. Parris: I object to Mr. Griffin's interjections
to his statfts here. ^  *
*
Mr. Griffin: I was engaged on behalf of this man by
his friends.   L a* a     *     A ■
Mr* Parris: Hesays he has no friends here*
Mr* Griffin: That is a Question that in Court of law
would not be allowed*
proper
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question. g
Mr* Worsnop: Have you got King Pong can you bring hia
here*
Mr* Parris: I think so
Mr* Worsnop:jBring him along* £
Mr* Paxris: The first question I would liked settled;
is this, how far my friend Mr* Griffin Has a right to
interrupt in this way the man states he has no Counsel
and
untry. On behalf
Mr* Griffin making his objection. .
Mr
bring in the other Chinaman
who have retained* mo. They are here* and explain the
elroumstance•
Mr. Harris: It looks as if Mr. Griffin was being misled
Mr* Griffin: I would be glad to produce the two chinaman that retained me and asked me to como
here*
Mr* Parris: Mr. Comptroller it is in your hands.
Mr. Worsnop: I would like to have King Pong present.
Mr. Parris : I would like to have the other question
settled first*
Mr* Worsnop: Bring in the two Chinese friends Mr. Gril
Mr. Griffin: The man I speak of was here at 10 oclock
and I told him he could not come in*
as he was ex parti but Mr* Cumyow could
an
j     Lee On Gow is the man, and I have his
g  telephone number and address* I can send
and get him*
Mr. Worsnop: I do not want to delay the inquiry*
ft
Mr. Griffin: I know, but I was not aware that any such
technical point would be raised*
Dr. Chang: I think he ought to have the benefit of       I
counsel and in th t case I would ask him     ii TT
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1 llsMbe wants Mr^ Griffin to appear for hia.
£  Mr* Lew will you ask hia if he does not went
an attorney to help him.
A* J he?e no money to engage a lawyer*
(Dr. Chang, the Chinese Consul had a talk In Chinees
with the applicant)
Mr* Griffin: You night tell hia that my fee haa been
arranged for.
Mr. Low: He says if he does not want any money I would
like to have him help)
Mr. Griffin: That is a very good arrangement*
Mr. Worsnop: I think it would be better for all con	
earned for him to have counsel.
Mr. Parris: I do not have any objection to that only
that I had been informed he was not represented by counsel and I wanted to know
where Mr. Griffin got hia instructions as
we believe there are other interests and
ulterior ones of a third party Involved
here. I would like to follow the question
up a little bit. He says he has no money to
pay a lawyer I would like you to ask him
g  what he meant when ho said he had no money
•  Jto *paj[ a lawyer*
A* I did not know how much it costs to get a lawyer, and
what he meant Is he does not have the money te engage
a lawyer*
k* What Is he going to do with his $420.
A* Travelling expenses and hotel expenses*
Q. Where le he going to travel*
A* If there is no business In Vancouver I will investigate
Mr* Worsnop: He has already answered that*
Mr* Parris: I  think I have a right to aak Mia these sen
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Mr. Griffin:  I ***** so obj.otlo* t. t**t ** i**g •• it
pot. tkat Ik. baa t«*n  Sn'orwi.
Mr. t«r*i*:  0* good *u till If
A. t*u if ft. draft i. m go** i   ni ***i*iri>M^taj
afcn** *ad g« t gy *»aay *•**• j ft
Mf. tTM***p§ I think th. way to .*tafcli*h th. y*1 idity of
th*tf draft Ulti gat Kim* Wn%) tor*. |
L hmii lo doabt about it*     I |
m* **ranop:  I will taka ofcarg. of thai draft and a*
| _©*rtaia_to_^r <mn •atief&ot^
■r. TarriiT X twt hi* to look at th* *igafttar* oa that
draft.
Mr. Um t*. elgnatur* of th. aiik.r.
Mr. Farri.    T.a.
A* Thora la no *lgn*tur» hat thar. ia Jant a ehiaaa. *t*sp
t«l«i    t        iii
<*• §• iTiaroSait do* . a. kaoff anythiag about draft*
A. I do.
<*• X. *krit th* prop*r kind *f * ata*p for a dr ft.
4.  Tai4 staa* *ill «o. t 1 f *
3* Bo  thay Sot g*n*rally pat th*ir eaa* aad.m.&th *ad
than tt*BpHtf orar.  I     f        * llllvMf
A* Xo. 1*11 th. aerokante and baak r* th«y )m*t pat th*
~LHoa** I
«.lttli ra*4 what i* on tkat at***, ft
** z *•• lout xo«t, Xmrng tiok Oo.
<i* p<m d.di ha Vifcur** *o * hoi sraoh aonar a* a»*dad
|or*^i*r.%nd got thi. particular
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u. Who told him about Canada* What led him to come to
Canada*
Canada and My Partner
sent me over here*
mm
-*&* Did he have any letters of introduction to anybody in
Canada. 4
A. No, no letters of introduction* .
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(Draft put in as Exhibit B. Certificate put in as Exhibit A.)
Q. Does he know Ting Yuue Kee.   *
Mr
nun
Mr. farris: You know the signature on those letters.
Mr. lew: Ask Mr. Moon* f
Mr. Moon: Pong Yue Kee.
A. I do not live in Hong Kong. I do not know anybody there
Q* How does he know he lives in Hong Kong.
Mr. Lew: It was my mistake as I referred to Hong Kong.
Q* Did he hear anybody in the boat refer to this man.
Mr. Lew: The same man Pong Yew Kee*
A. Mr* Parris: Yes.
. A* Ho.
\Lq* Was he told by anybody on the boat there was a letter
for him to help him through the Customs*
I ;L A* So.
e
Q* Did he make any arrangements about having a letter come
sA   A.klTo. t
)(. Q* Did he know one was coming
anyb
me here.
or pass me.
Q* Did he know anybody on the boat at all until he
the boat*   r s ' '   &
A* I was not acquainted with them before*
Mr. Worsnop: Have you any questions Mr. Griffin:
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Mr* Griffin: I would ask you to Bay when this inquiry
is over you will notify him so he can
get back his passport and draft*
Mr. Worsnop: I do not know about the passport. The
draft we will return. Has he any other
evidence he wishes to call to establish
his status as a merchant*
A. I have my certificate that is all*
Mr. Worsnop: Will you tell him if he wishes to have
a conversation with his counsel through
the interpreter, he is at liberty to do so
(Dr. Changt the Chinese Consul held a conversation in
Chinese with the applicant)
Mr. Worsnop: I think we ought to have King Pong here.
Mr. Lew will you telephone and see if he •
is in*
Mr
Mr* Pagan: I will try and see if I can find him.
Mr* Parris: Ask him if he knows that these certifioat
have to be re-dated by the British Consul
A* Yes*
Q* Did he personally go before the British Consul
A* Yes, I was with an officer*
Q* Did he personally go before the Chinese Viceroy
A* Yes* ■
Q. I thought he said he got it through an official
At T^e official went with me.
what
of
Q. Who did you go before*/Was the namet'he Viceroy you went
I   before. 1
A* Yuen See Ping
Q. What is his position.
/
/
A* He is the Viceroy of Canton.
Mr. Worsnop: I think we had better let this applicant
and go on with another case and
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and when Mr. King Pong comes we can get him back again
Mr. Griffin: You might ask Mr. Lew to tell him he will
get his draft?back again as I am afraid
he will be anxious*
LEE WAHG APPLICANT
Q* What is your name
A* Lee Vang.
Q. Any other name
A* Just one name, no .marriage name*
Q* Ho.r old Is he.
A* 26. }
Q* Married or single.
A. Married.
Q. Is his wife living•
Dr. Chang: He should have a marriage name
I
Mr. Parris: We do not know what this Chinese conversa-
i       tion is we cannot toll what is being said*
Mr. Lew: The Oonsul says if you are married you should
m
and
chinaman
have a marriage name and
Consul says if you are a
have a marriage name; and he says no I have no
4
marriage name*
Q* Mr. Wornsopi Is his wife living
A* Yes* ?
'JmW ■
Q* What' Is her name
A. Wing Ghee is her maiden name.
■*•
How many children
A* None. *   i
£• Wftere is his wife living
1* Hay Chuenf Sing Sing*
}• What is his'business.
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A* General merohandia*
Q* Where Was his last place of residence*
A* Hay Chuen, Sing King.
y*  Put the question again will you, his last place of
residence*
A* Infmy store Sing Hing City*
Q. Did you come from that city here*
A* Yes, direct.
Q* Does he Intend starting business in Canada.
*
A. Yes
Q. What kind of business
A* Same kind of business
<. What is that*
A* General merchandis
4* Has he any partners*
*
A. 4 partners*  #
Q. Does that mean 4 partners including himself
A* Including myself*
Q* What is the firm1s name and address.
A* Yea Pong, Ging Chee St., Sing Hing*
Q The names of his partners*
A* Pong Chin Kong: Lee Ing Quong: Wong Kee Ching
Q* How much money is invested in the business.
A* $16000* Mexican*  1
Q. How much has each partner invested.
A* $4000. e ach *
Q. That is all Mexican.
A* Yes that Is all Mexican*
Q. Why is he coming to Canada*
much
A On account of my businesSf jrather quiet not/business
/.I come ever here to look|for further business
Q. How long has he been in business himself*
A* Allttle over Z  years* I*   ■ '
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«4* Did ho know\ anything of business before that• Was le
In the store or anything*
A* I was not In business prior to this three years*
Q« How long has the partnership existed*
A* There business has been established for some time*
Only a little after I gave up my studies I interested
myself in their business*
(** Prom whom did he purolu.se his ticket*
A* I purchased the ticket from Chung Hing Co*
Q. Where are they*
A* The Central point of Hong Kong*
e
l*. How much did he pay*
A* $210. to $220 Mexican*
Q. Prom Hong Kong to Vancouver was that*
A* Prom Hong Kong to Vancouver*
Q* Were any conditions asked or any guarantee of landing
I given when he purchased his ticket*
Si. Ho*
*
mU Did he have any conversation with anybody in this office
where ho bought his ticket* What he would have to do
here anout getting ashore*
lo*
A.
Q* Was hq asked to produce his passport when he bought his
ticket*
A* They did not ask me to produce the o
Q. Where did he get his passport*
A* In Canton City
Q. How long before he went to Hong Kong.
At Hot very long
Q. What does he mean by not very long*
A* About two months*
Qt What was he doing in the meantime after getting his
passport* -
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A* X did not have anything to de I did not de anything
Ask him from whom ho rot hi s mon
purchase hi
ticket*
A* My own money*
Q. How much did hie pass port cost him*
A. $1100.
Mr. Lew: He says this cortiflcate cost
Mr* Grant: Is that Mexican:
$1100
A* Mexican*
Q. Mr. Worsnop: To whom did he pay the money*
A* To a firm in Hong Kong*
vt He told me just now or I understood he got It in
Canton City.
A. That is what I said*
Q* Ask him where he got that passport*
A* In Canton City*
Q. Prom whim.
Dr. Chang: Do not put In the word Hong Kong*
Mr. Lew: I did not mention Hong Kong*
the Colonel asked him where he got this certificate
and he said he got this In Canton*
Mr* Worsnop: He just told us he paid $1100 to somebody
in Hong Kong.
Mr. Lew:
will ask th t over again
Mr. Parris: Might I make the suggestion that we be
allowed to follow up this point of the
cross examination at this point, so
times a lawyer can do better than others
Mr* Grant will do It*
Mr. Worsnop: Had we better not go on with the questione
Mr. Low: The question was put by the Colonel, did not*
you ask a question. Did he pay $1200 in Bong
Kong* 1
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Dr. Chang: Did you ask that question, you did not
mention the place*  f
Mr* Worsnop: He said he paid it to a firm in Hong Kong
Mr* Lew: Your next question was to whom in HongKong
and there is no answer *
Mr* Griffin: It is possible that the firm who got the
money might also be in Canton*
Mr
ant: Does he know
w why he got that passport
Mr* Lew: Can jon put that question another way.
<a
Q* Mr. Grant: Who told you to get that passport*
A* I got ft myself*       8
Q* Why did you need it*
A. I come here as a merchant to do business or to engage
in business* I require a passport*
r m
Q. Why do you require a passport*
A. Mr* Lew: Z re qui re a passport that is his answer*
*
Q* Do you know why.
a. no*
Q. Who told you you needed one*
At Mr* Lew: The witness asks if you refer to Hong Kong*
Q. Ho* anywhere.       |
A* A fellow by the name of Lue Yu Gee
Q. Was he* the first one who told you to get a passport*
At He is the one Who told me to get the passport*
Qt Is the only one*
t
A* He is the only one*
Q. Did he tell you what it would cost you*
A. He eald #1200*
t«* Did you pay it to him*
A. I did net pay to Lue Yu Gee* but I got this in Canton
City and I paidfthe money| in Canton City*
Q. You paid the money in Canton Olty* You told us before •  A'
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thf^t you paid the neney to a firm in
long
A* I
about
paid It in fenten City
<$* Hew len^ have you known Luo You Gee
A. It le a little ever a year*
<U that does
do*
A* So keeps a store * .
*%•  Where *
A* Bun Houn, Hong Kong*
Q* Luc Yu Gee hae a firm In Hong Kong*
k\m  Has he any firm in Canton*
A. lo* j!
Q* When did he tell you you needed the certificate*
A* The Chinese second month the'present Chinese year*
$• Sow long before you went on the steamboat at Hong Kong
At Mr. Lew: That Is how long before he got the certificate
first.
A* Br* Or*nt: jLfif Bo* How long before Lue You Gee told
i hia.  . t.
A* Over three months.
Q. Did he tell you why you needed it.
A* BOt
Q* You did not aak him why*
A* 10*
st You gave him the $1200*
Mr. Lew: You are still referring to the eeae nan
Yu Gee*
Mr* Grant: Yest*
Mr. Lew: I gave Lue Yu Gee #18
tit
and told Lee Yu Gee to
give the money to where he got the
8 pOtt
<U Sid you give him any none; before you got the passport
A* I get the passport first*
h. Who got it for you*
A* X get It nyself *
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Q* Did Lue Yu Gee Help you get it*
A* Ho*
Q.
many
take
A* About a month• j
Q* What did you do to get it*
A* I .asked the officer or the Mandarin* to get it for me
ti* Did you promise him any money if he got it for you.
A* Yes*
Q* How much did you promise him If he got it for you.
A* He says it will cost $1200 to get it*
Q* The Manderin told you that*
I a
A* The Manderin, official told me that*
k* And that was after Lue Yu Gee told you.
A. Yes*
Q* What did the Mandarin make you do*
Mr. Lew: That is before the certificate was granted*
A*
Mr* Grant: To get the certificate*
He said if I was going to start bu
over here
he would go to Canton City to the officer to-.get the
passport for me. *
Q* Who told you that* the Manderin*
A. Yes.
Q. And did he go to Canton City to get the passport for
you*
f ,
A. Yes, the manderin went with me to Canton.
Q. And where did you go in Canton*
J'     I him he Jbimself
b  did not go with me * went and got It-myself
I corrected that.
my name and
went and got it himself*
Q. The did he bring you the passport*
and he got the certificate and
A. I gave him my m	
brought It to me*
Q. Was that passport exactly like it is now when you first
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A* Yes, as seen as he brought it back to me it was just
like that*
*.*■ And he gave that to you where.
A* He brought that to me in Sing Hing City at my store.
Q* And you had not seen him after he left Sing Hing City
to go and get that passport until he came and brought
it to you*
A. I did not see him from the time (  Mr. Lew:I put the
stion this way. You did not see him from the time
got the man to get the passportland brought back
que
the passport to you in your place and he said no)
Q* Did you see any other official
A* He is the only manderin.
4* Do you know of any British Officilia
Mr. Lew: Who is official, that is pretty hard to put to
f  I a  the witness* H  1 £	
any whi te~ man
A* lo*
Dr. Chang: He may not understand by white man. »3 &
Q. Mr. Grant: Ask him if he saw any'English man about this
ii     :    nassnort* Did vnmtalk to them about it or
go to their office about it
A* Ho*
getting
you leave Sing Hing at all until you got the passport.
Did you reside in Sing Hing all the time after making
the application until you got the passport*
H ■*• ( I put the
from
time you asked the
Manderin to get the certificate for you until the
cemo
away any
place and he said no*)    Xit $
Q. You stayed in Sing Hing all the time* .
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A* Yes*
0
Q. Did you have your photograph taken at all*
A* I had a photograph taken for him I handed hin a
photograph for him to put on the certificate*
k. Is that the last you saw of the photograph until
you saw it on the certificate*
A* I handed him the photograph and when the certificate
came back the photograph was pasted on here (On the
paper)
Q* When you paid this $1200 you were told you would get
a certificate that would enable you to get into
Canada were you not.
A* Yes.
Q* Add that Is what you paid the $1200 for was it not.
A. Mr. Lew: I put the question did you pay this $1200
to land here and he said yes*
Mr. Cumyow: He said it was not guaranteed*
Q* Mr. Grant: You say your landing was not guaranteed
A. Ho it was not guaranteed*
through
that certificate*
A* When he handed me this passport tic said the holder of
this certificate would be landed immediately as soon
as you get there*
And did you know what would happen if you did not
have that certificate*
A* If I have not got this certificate I would not cone*
Q. Mr. Parris: Does he mean he would not p4&  come or
would not be allowed to come*
A* He says if he did not have this he would not havo con
(** Mr* Grant: When Lue Yu Gee told you about thin he
told you he could not guarantee you would
m get in* ■r4
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xu: fl Mr. Lew; Put the question again will you*
Q. Mr. Grant: Did Lue Yu Gee tell you that this certi
cate would help you to got into Canada
A* No*
Q. Did the Manderin tell you it would help you to get
into Canada*       i
A* He did not tell me that*
think it would help you to get into Canada
A. When I left home with this Passport I thought I
would be landed right away. I did not know I was
going to be delayed all this time*
a
Q* Did anyone tell you you would be landed right
awa
A. Ho.
•*Mr* Worsnop: I wish you would establish the relationship existing between Lue Yu Gee and
the manderin.     % i      $
Q* Mr. Grant: You told me that Lue Yu Gee was the first
*     one to mention to you about getting a
certificate or pass pert*
A* Yes.
Q. Did he take you to the manderin*
A* Ho*
Q* Who told you to go to the manderin*
A. One of my partnerstin the business recommended here
I will send you to the manderin to get the certificate
for you to go* t     $
Q. When you went to the manderin you knew it was going to
n
cost you $1200 did you not*
A* Yes* # i    % 4
I* And did he tell you it was going to cost you $1200*
that is did the manderin confirm your.idea that it was
going toicost you $1200    te . ff
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ft. iad than h~got you th* ©artifioata did ha.
A. Tea.
m*  And then you wont to Hong Kong.
A. To a.
Q. And afgar you got to Hong Song you gave laa yt G«a
th. $1200.
A. When I waa in Hong Kong I gav* th* flBOG to Lu. yad
Go* to hand thla $1100 oTor to the Mand.rin.
Q. What waa th* nand*rin*.l
A* I do not know hi
C
and he did no t toll
Q* How de you know he was a manderin*
A* My partner told me bo*
Q* And you do not know yourself that he was a nander
A* My partner in the firm told me he waa a manderin,
for
to have no fear that he would get the pass
port for
and so I Investigated and found he was
the manderin*
Q* Where did you see him*
A. In my own store*
Q* He came to your own store*
A* Yes*
Q* And the time you gave hia the photograph was that
the first tine you saw him*
At Yes*
Q* Why did you net give the money to the manderin
hen
he
ve you thatcertificate of pas sport *
A* By money wae in Hong Kong then*
(** Bid yen tell the mandarin that*
A* I told hia ny money le in Bong Xo
for Bong Kong you nay cone with L
Hong Kong and I will give it te
, when I leave
or fellow
to w%
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Q* How much moneys did he have in Hong Kong*
A* I just had this #1200 and my passage money
Q. That is all you had. t*         $
A. That is all* •
Q* Hothing more*   i • •       ' *
A* Ho*
any more money after you went from Hong
Kong
A. Ho*
4* Your firm did not send you any money at all*
A* Ho* When I was in the Pirm I drew some money on my
I spent* some*
own account as my own expen
Q. Did the manderin tell you l
Lue Yu Gee*
A* Yes. He said when you get the money you hand the
money to Lue Yu Gee.
Q. Mr. Worsnop: Where was that photograph taken.
A. In Hong Kong* > f I
Q* How long before you handed it to this Lue Yu Gee*
i
Did you hand it to Lue Yu Gee or to the manderin*
A* I gave it to the manderin* * •
n
Q. How long was it he had that photograph taken before
he handed it to the manderin*
A* As soon as I got the photograph I gave it to the
manderin.
Elk the applicant quite understands
he is saying In regard to that point as he told us
just new that he gave the manderin his photograph
in the city of Sing Hing and now he says he had it
taken in Hong Kong*   A^F
The photograph was taken in Hong Kong*
Q* How
Hong Kong from Sing Hing
MEr. Grant: I think you will recollect I put the n
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ta«*tl*a that *ft*r La* la 6** *p*ke to hi* a* did
not laara Sing ling Until h* got th* oartlfioat*.
MS* %0R850Pi    I know that hat ha .aid a. got tha
photograph takaa is Bang long and gar* it t* th*
Mandarin ia Sla ling.    How ooald that h*.
A   MB. LBV:    Z *ek*d hia if h* g*t that ph*t*greph t*k*r
ln'HongKong and
•aid y*f and I aaid did yen giw.
th. photograph t. th* Mandarin in din flag and he naia
y.a*
Q   MB. GRIFFII
aak hi* ho* long af t*r
h. giro it to hia,  would that aot olear it ap.
MB. W0R3H0P:    fhat la what I want to know.
A   A. soon a* I got it in Hong Kong Z took it to Sla ling
and gara it to tha Mandarin.
Q   What aade hia go to Bong Kong to get that photograph
takaa.
A 3e
&
M
aphs In Hong Kong
j Is he in tho habit of going to Hong Kong * often*
A Vo not
til I was intending te get this photograph
for the certificate*
4 MR* GRAB?: Who told you you wanted a phtiegraph for
It. *
A   the men Lue Yu Gee.
a
. WORSNOP:    Bow often has he been to Hong Kong
since last January, Bow Years*  (this year)
A   Including the trip for having ay photograph taken
the trip to
Kong to take the
ship twioo
Does he know anyone in Canada.
A Ho, nobody hare*
4 Wae he tola to apply to any o
when
o
her#
Ho
Q Did he write and tell any body over hero that he w**
coming 1
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A A Bo*
%   fe what place le he going in Canada
here to Vancouver*
A I intended to oo
$ Did he receive any letters fr
before he left China*
4  U#e
h What buelneee dees he Intend cfegeging in.
y one hero that lo
A General
rchandiee*
4 How much aoney has he.
A X put the question have you any cash. And he says
ne money* {
h Where le it*
A On my person
I havo• one draft.
BR* W0R3H0P: Br. Lew will you ask hia en * oa this
draft Is drawn.    * «
A This draft is for me to go to Lee Yuen Co* to get
the noney*
Q And who ie the drawer of the draft.
A MR* LEW: That is who is the maker.
A MR. W0R3H0P:" Yes*
A Lue Yu Gee gave
this*
h   Are not drafts usually signed by the drawer
China.
A MR. LEW:  Yes.
Prom Me Ying Chang drawn on Lee Yuen*
Q BR* W0R3H0P: Is there any epeolal time set for
payment of that draft*      *
A Ho ti
specified.
Q Ie it a demand draft*
A On presentation I reoelve the
ney
it   What business did yen pursue in China*
A   Gen oral aerehandlso.
Q   Where* .
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A Sin Hing City*
Q Is he going to the United States.
A I might go to the United States and I may not.
Q Is he traveling alone or In company with others
A I came alone *
Q Did he know any others on board*
A Be*
Q Ho never seen thy of them before*
A Hover seen them before.
Q Did he know any of them In China* $
A I did not know them in China.
Q jHas he ever* been lb Canada before*
A_ Ho*
Q How long doe8 he Intend to stay in Canada
A Uncertain li do not know* m i
Q MR. PARRIS: Could he read the stamp en that draft*
A Z de read It*
m%   Ask him to read It*
A This stamp is goods sent out of the store ether
purposes no use (would that be correct, referring to
Mr. Cumyow)
Q Ask him if he knows the manager of Lee Yuen In Vancouver
MR* LEW: Mr. Cumyow corrected that a little further.
This stamp is used for sending goods out only ether
purposes no use.
A He says I de not know the manager of Lee Yuen Co.
Q Tell him Mr. Lee Kee , that he sits behind him, is the
manager of Lee Yuen Co.
A I do not know*
Q Would you look at this Mr* Lee Kee*
A MR* LEE KEE: X never saw that kind before, drawn on us
for $1200* and payable to Lee Wang $1200* gold. *
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Q MR* WORSHOP. You might ask him Br. Parris la that
such a draft as he would accept* *
4 MR* PARRIS: Would you accept that draft.
Would your firm here accept that draft and pay it
A Ho we have not got any letter from them.    +  *
Q Do you know these people that sent it*
A I know quite a long time ago, we have not been
communicating with him
Q Have you been doing business with him.
A Ten years ago we did business with him*
J MR* 6RIPPIH: May I interrupt te ask him a question.
If you get advice from this firm who made this draft
would you honor It. ^
A Any time we get it but we have not got it now*
Q MR* PARRIS: With that signature on It, I mean the
stamp en the ^bottom I     A
e
A That Is just a common business stamp*
MR* WORSHOP: It is more in the nature of an advice
I than a draft, virtually speaking*
Q Will you ask what date that draft bears*
*
Q MR* PARRIS: What date is on the draft.    #
A Chinese July 21st In our Empsven's second year*
MR
That would be about August 23rd* of the
pre sent year*
Q MR* PARRIS: How long before he left did he get this
A *Just a few days*  * .
Tell him that Mr* Lee Kee the manager of Lee Yuen
hays he has not had any advice of this draft and he
would not honor it.
A Why would he not pay me*     ^
Q Tell him he has had no information of the matter, not to
\ at
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de "business with him*
A They told
when I got thia from them they told ae
they had business transactions With Lee Yuen all the
time when I go up town to present this and they will
pay you*
Q Aak hia where ho got the money te pay for this draft
How much money did he pay for this draft*
A Z did not pay him for this
Q Hew
come to get it if he
A X gave him the money and he gave
this bill.
•It
Luo
the
Mandarin.
A This Is the money to give the Mandarin*
Q Was the only money he gave Lue Yu Gee what be told |
le the $1200. Mexican that he was to give the Mandarin.
A Would it be right to put the question this way, that ho
Only gave Lue Yu Gee money once and that was the money
for the Mandarin.
A BR. PARRIS: Yes and fallow it up and that amount was
$1200* Box*
A Yes only one time.
Q And that was $1200. Men* to give to the Mandarin*
A Yet*
Q What was he to do with this $1200* in geld when he go
it*
A When this Lue Yu Gee gave ae this bill or this draft.
he said if the Customs Offleere ask you about money
you tell hia this is the draft which is paid te Leo
Yuen here end could get it from Lee Yuen*
t WORSHOP, Mr. Lew will you translate the address
the envelope please.
A BR
Important letter, hand to Leo Yuen Co. and
the sender le just the one character •Lee*
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AFTEMOOI SESSIOI.
a MR. SRIFflB: Bow that Mr. Farrla and Mr. Grant are
m
hero? I ^buld like to apply for Ifive or ten minutes
*
ohgt with these meatbefeTe thay are examined^so I
can discuss with Hhem and find out from them the
strong^points of their position,* ljp they are :merohants
or if they are not and if they iare X would like t#
bting out the points that bear
very
important matter that has to be decided* and I think
the! right of counsel ought'] tombs' permitted and X apply
for it*
BR* WORSHOP: Have yeu any objection Mr* Parris*
MR* PARRIS: If the official interpreter defused I have
ne objection*
MR* GRIPPIH:  Oh, no, IbMTQTt  heard of such a thing*
have my (own
any
official presentfbetween a consultation between client
and solicitor* *
MR* GRAHT: X submit that betweonJMr. Griffin and his
client there is a great barrier fined. Mr* Griffin
ie InfCanada and his client^ or this applicant is not*
The inquir^y is dirooted as to their statue as merchants
if Mr. Griffin comes here he cannot come as their counsel
that
that
imperiled
nil* Zf the men
Mr* Griffin can
JLm*
appeal to the
*•;■•:w <* *<a •■.*:•
Comptroller, If they are
still imperiled he can go to the Court as solicitor in
counsel for these men, and it has not appeared in so far
as we have-examine d
that
nting any
And there is the
further point that these men so far &-as they have been
examined have disclaimed having retained hia ait  all*
MR* GRIPPIH: I have been^asked to come and see these
men* *A philanthropic person can* ask Counsel to appiar
J *
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By learned frienle
that* ire* all have
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art on in
prison and gone down there and no 9>rm has naked If you
have the diet!net authority of tha pereon hlaeelf,
that authority Is obtained when you go
etft
llSOUS8
ttororwith him.
and them that is tha and
refuse to discuss with you
f it. that la a different
The idea that I have to have a retainer (writ
matter*  |_ _ __ _ _ _
from this man le absurd, I can get that now if .necessary
)
My client who Instructed
MR. GOW appeared*
la hore*
MR* WORSHOP: Did you instruct Mr. Griffin to appear
for these men*
BR* GOW; Yee*
MR* WORSHOP:  On what ground, why did you*
MR* CUMYOW: He says he wae instructed by the 0* P*
Board of Trade to look after the Interests of these I
n
iMa 	
He says
the people in town
BR* POSTER: I would ask Mr* Lew if there le such a thi
as the 0* P* Board of Trade.
MR* LEW: X havo been here thirteen years and I never
of it.
MR* GRIPFIHi  I
not see any necessity to aak these
BR* PARRIS: We know that the Interpreter who acted ae
interpreter before haa been suspended and he is very
actively interested in these present inquiries but he
can not appear, **• m .
MR* GRIPPIH:  What.is hia kn
MR. IARRIS: Yip On*
BR* GRIPPIH: I never heard of|hic
MR* lARRISl X
not objecting to Mr. Griffin hiseelf
but I think wo should object and see that
there
no attempt aedc through the innocent means ef counsel r
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permit a man who has no status whatever
Shore
evidently some scheme at tho other end and it is for
you Mr* Comptroller sitting at this inquiry to see that
there is no collusion between th* partie
t this
and the ether ends*
MR* GRIPPIH: But taking Mr* Gow as a philanthropist
surely they can have the benefit of counsel * J	
dealings in the matter is a professional one that I
would hope to discharge * I do not know Mr* Yip On,
and the suggestion about collusion between this man and
merchant would have no bearing
en Mr* Yip On.
MR. PARRIS: If my learned friend would undertake
see that all conversations would be oarried on in
English so we could have a check en it it would be
different, but that is impossible,! therefore it 1b
impossible for him "to give any undertaking*
MR* GRIPPIH; Why should I use his interpreter, 1why
should X toll my learned friend what my defence is*
*
I, do not know Mr* Tip On and thissman here may need
ounsel and
If
Conptroller said thie is afcprivate finquiry of my own
and X do not Want counsel present, if he* took that view
we would all withdraw and go about out business*
MR* PARRISi We are engaged here practically as officials
•*
of the departmental the party's who has Instructions from
the department has instructed us and we are here in view
of those instructions*
MR* GRIPPIH: I say then that if the Conptroller who is
conducting an inquiry said that the private Interest
of those who wish to come in, that they are not to have
the benefit of counsel, then the affair would deteriorate
into something that the Government and the public would tt  ?a &
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look on Without credit.
Mr. Parrla: There le
sugi action you are being ex -
oladed*
Mr* Griffin: Yee you are aa you are trying to exclude
counsel* Counsel have tho right to know
his case before he comes into court,
it le the duty of counsel for which they
are paid)     	
|Mr* Worsnop: I will decide that point tomorrow morning
Mr. Griffin.
Mr. Griffin: Then this case now before you may bo over
a This man this morning made certain stated
aents that
require explanation.!
might in his own mind or with the assistance
Of an interpreter, he may be able|
an explanation. The first man I did not
ask but one question as he appeared to be
well able to take care of himself but thla
man appears to be unable to act for himselfJ
He may be as cautious as you please but he
requires oo
el all the
Mr. Worsnop: I will let you know tomorrow morning
10 oolock.
Mr
meantime
suppose•
A* Yes*
Q* But it will not be closed* that
case will be reserved*
A* Yes*
f Mr. Parris: It ia only th
satisfied In hi
Q. Mr. Parris: When he started out for Bong Kong
oney did he have* 1
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out of my village
A* Just my expense money
m
Q* Expenses for where*
A* By expenses of c|
Q* How much was that*
A. §10*
Mr. Cumyow: To HongKong•
Q. Mr. Perris: When he left for Hong Kong the only money
he had on hie person was $10. is that right
A? Yes*
Q* And the only money, he had that was in Hong Kong was
the $1200 that he gave to Lue Yujl Gee* Is that right•
A. Yes*
Q. And of course Lue Yu Gee must have got his ticket for
him.
A. Yes*
Q. Bought his ticket and gave it to him*
A. 'Yes*
to
Q. Sid Lue Yu Gee see him on/the boat
A. Yes he did*
getting
A* Yes he looked aftor me getting on board the boat*
Q. And did he tell him ibout meeting the Chinese Interpreter
at this end* -t    1
A* No*
anything said about him writing
any
A* No letter.
Q* He did not know anything about any letter*
A* Don't know*
Qt Was there anybody in Hong Kong that he knew beside Lue
Yu Gee*
NOTE: Mr* Mah Sam Yuen here appeared to give evidence
regarding a draft* • A>
r
•*   * d. Mr. Worsnop: Ask him his na ie.
A. Hah Sam Yuen, « 13 &   I t f
Q. What is he** • f f    $f I
A* I belong to King Peng Co*
Q. What Is his position.
At Manager*
Q* Does he transact all their money business.
A* Yes*
Q.
what
do with it*
A* This is a regular draft according to the Chinese
draft form, but I received no advice from then and
$? therefore I cannot pay on the face of it* -m
# Mr. Lew: &Mj£j$ Consul ask Mr. Mah Sam Yuen if
A* No, He vet.
said according to the form it is a genuine
Chinese draft *
Q* Mr. Wornnop: What does he mean by according to Hhe
W form
*j* *'
A* Shineso style *|
Q* He received no advice to pay
A* Bo*l    *-*' I
Qa Has he any reason to doubt the authencity of this.
A. Whether that is genuine or net I cannot say, X do not
f know* The draft may be genuine but I received no
*i advice to pay the money*
? Dt• Chang: He did not say may be he
Mr* Lew: No* he said the draft Is genuine but oxi
*■ .BB- account of not receivini
to take it as.not genuine*
Q. -Mr* Perris: Have you ever had drafts from this fins t
f
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Ql Have you ever done any
with tais fira
A. I never had any dealings with these^people and besides
this Is Just the name of the firm and haa aa manager * s
signature• \9
Q* Ask him if it should have*
A* If I received an advice therefor It must have a sig-
e
* nature. But this Will be just like a bank draft with
' the bank name and no ^signature*
t*« Will he pay that now.
a;
Ing, explaining and know
person explaining I would pay It, but as it is Is I
Itatta
*3*
have no advice I cannot pay it*      7$  J T
Jim' ^ —^
Q* Do you .know anything about the financial standing
would you accept their advice without any security
"in addition.*    "  f'\ ?       I
A* pro AdvloefX cannot pay them at fall ™  ?  Is f M
*
Q* That is not the way I asked him. Even if he got advice
T from this firm does he know enough about the credit 1
,^
of thls*flrm to adYandejthe ;meneyfunless their orodit
was- secured Income*way te him.
A* If 1 received advice, for me to pay it, and if I
investigate! and they are good I would pay it, and if
they are no good I would have He get somebody to
7 secure it before I would pay it***f f' W   : "
• *
Q* He does not know if they are any good
A. NO*    f f     f
Q* Mr. Griffin: Does he kno
firm, ?any
A* On account he has no letters here therefore X take it
I do net know them and because there are so many firms
I do not know them* I may have known the person if
he signed his name tt it but I do not knew the firm
Q* Ask him if!the advice Icomes en the next ship will he
pay the draft* * , "xi:
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A* If next
1 X
lvo edvive froa then te pay it
If I trust than X will pay it, bat aa It ie I weald
not pay it*
Q. Aak Tiim if there is not another half of thia draft
along here.
A* Yes*
Q. Ie that the advice ha means*
A* X ne^ar receive any frem then before, therefore, I
do not know what their practice is
Q* Is it the usual practice to have another half to these
draftst
A* The usual practice trould be to havo another half*
And the usual nractice too woul
other half
to him In another mall*
At Yea that would be the natural practice*
Q. Ask him if it ie not the pr .ctlee to s end tho two
halves in two ships in case a ship should be lost.
A. The Usual practice would be that another half con- on
the sens mall, but If by accident it does not come
In the sane nail therefore It would como in tho
next mail, and if it does and the two halves correspond and also another letter explaining I would pay
Q
otherwise I would have to have security.
if the other half cones on tha text steamer with a
• M
letter signed by this firm with the manager's
will pay the draft*
he
A. If X know the manager and have bus in ess dealings with
each other then I weald pay it, otherwise I cannot pay
it.
Q* And] does ho know the nan agar of this firm*
A* I do not know that firm* I nay know the
do not know thrfgfirn.
baa I
Q. Uk hia if It might not be .ui  poaalble that th. I .
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signature of the manager is on tho otherfhalf•
A. As there is no letter come even if the signature did
come it could not be done*
Q. Is it not possible the manager has ^signed the other one
instead of this one*
A* I could not tell you I do not know*
Q. Ask him if that is not quite possible*
A* I cannot say^
Q* Mr* Parris: Whilethis witness is here* There;is another
man who has a draft on this same flrm.Xt might be
as Swell;to examine him on that now*
Mr. Worsnop: Will you bring in the man Mr* Lew:
KWONG YU KWONG Applicant   y
Q* Mr. Perris: Mr* Lew just as
the manager of Zing Pong
a
Company if that draft is drawn on-his firm
and what he. has to say about it*
■
A* This draft Is made by the same firm referred to in the
last one, and is .drawn on our company
Q. Is it signed in tho same manner*
A. The stamp is the same way*        j
Q. Do all the remarks he made about the previous draft apply
to this one* ...jL ■
A* Just the same*
Q* Arc they in exactly the same position*
Q* Mir. Poster: Is the draft for the same amount*
A. The seme remarks for this one excepting that the amount
-in this one is larger* .
Q. Mr. Perris: How much is this one* -,
A* #660* t
Q* Mr* Worsnop: Ask him if he does a big business in Hong
Kong exchange
A* Yes*
ft. Aud has he had any dealings with this firm at all *J
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A. Wot yet*
Q.; He has no idea why
Bin flrn*
A* IX da jaot_ know for
drafts
uld be drawn on
/hat reason and   tu silos I do not know
the    firm but the Manager of the firm I night    know hia
personally* fie night    explain the cause by letter.
your
|WANG, Examination continued* I
Mr. Worsnop: I think Mr. Griffin you had better ask
client Br. Gee to retire*
Q. Mr. Parris: Ask the witness Mr* low who he expected to
moot him at this end and take care cf hia
the some way Lue Yu Gee did at tho other end
A* X do not know there was anybody to leek after me at this
end. If I was landed to go up town I would go up to
Lee Yuen*
ft. Did ho expect that Lue Yu Geo would arrange to havo him
looked after at this end*
A* No.
Q. Toll him there was a letter written from Hong Kong te
somebody at this end to look after him. Aak hia If he
knows anything about that*
Mr. Griffin: I think the witness ngfeht te be cautioned a
Mr* Perris:
Br* Griffin:
Br* Parris:
Br* Griffin
before that counsel has been informed as we
have no evidence that that la a fact*
We have tho letters*
X have no doubt you have but it has not
been given in evidence*
| It haa already bean given in evidence*
Not in this way* We have distinguished
between this o vide no e and that of the previous
Inquiry*
Br. Lew:
want the question that
selliaieo
Info
d
to4 Griffin
Yes* '
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A* I do not know*
Q. Mr* Parris: Mr* Lew what was the name of the party who
A* Mr* Lew:
gave yon those 11 letters so I can ask him*
Those letters in the last investigation
referred to, the one who signed the letters
Pong Yu Zee*
Q* Ask him if he knows him
A. No*
Q* Did he ever hear tell of him*
A. lo*
a. What I want is the name of tho man
letters on the boat* ^
A. I know the man I could pick him out from the crowd*
Q* Ask him if he knew anybody on the boat*
Q. Mr* Lew: That Is those who came with him*
A* Mr. Parris: Yes*
A* Does not know*
A. Did not know anybody on the beat*
A* No*   I
Mr. Worsnopi He has already answered that you have put it
to him two or three different ways*
Mr. Parris: Yes but the difficulty is this, that \  in
following up a line of thought I have to
a
sometimes repeat questions. I am not purposely prolonging this Inquiry but I have
to take that responsibility and do it as
X think best*
Q* Did you become acquainted with anybody on the boat*
A«  NO. '
Q. Was there anybody you saw when leaving Hong Kong excepting this Lue Yu Gee on the boat that knew him*.
A* Yes. He was the only one*    j
Q* He was the only one*
knew that I am acquainted with f• \m S
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42
Q* Do*a he a*ca to
*>
knew*
A. I do not
he wae the only one In Bong Bong hi
ybody in nen& Kong. Juat Lue Yu Geo.
MOT SHEA XWAX Applicant*
Q. Mr* Worsnop: What is hie nrmn•
A* Boy Shea Kwai*
4* Has ho any other
A. Boy Yow L?n.
G* How oil Is ho*
A* 26
Q. Married or \ ingle*
A* Married*
Q. Is his wlfo living
A* Living.
Q* What Is her n
A* Lun Shoe*
Q* How many children has he.
A* Two*
Q. Sex and age*
A* two beys* Quook Poy aged 3 and knock
Q* Where le hie family living*
A* On Pun in the District of Sin Hing.
Q* What Is his business or calling.
A. Dry poods*
Q* Last place of residence*
A* Wanton City
Q* How long is he living In Canton City
A. 4 or 6 years.
Q. Where was hi» family living then
A. In my home village *
Q* Did he used to visit his village* quite oftengcleg
e
wards and forwards from Canton City*
Puen aged A
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A* Yes.
Q* How long does it take to get to Canton City
A* 6 hoars train
Q* Does he intend starting business in Canada*
A* Yes*
Q. What*
A. X have not made up my mind* After investigating X might
► -
start up a dryggods store*
M
any
on the other" side*
A. Yes
a
<** How many
A* 3 partners* That Is 4 including myself*
Q. What is the firm name and address*
A* Kim Chung*
Q* Address.
A* Yoke Sua Street, Canton City
Q* Hew much money is invested In the business
A. #20,000* original capital.
(*• How much has each partner*
A* Each partner holds $5000 shares*
0,. What does this nan de in the firm*
A* Look s after the accounts and cash*
e
Q. Why is he coming to Canada*
i. Some of my fftiends havo good business over here so my
partners sent mo over here*
1 m  l
(*. Prom who did he purchase his ticket*
&* I sent a letter from Canton City to Hong Kong to some of
my cousins or relatives to obtain that for me*
ft* Does he net knew where they bought this ticket*
i
&* I know they bought that ticket from Chung Hing Co*
ft* Who gave him this ticket when he got to Hong Kong •
»
Yung
a
Yung
&4# name 5
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Q* How much did he pay*
e
A* $85*
Q* He paid that oat himself*
A* Yes*
Q. He sent the money from Canton te Eong £ong $85*,
#190. some odd Mexican for him
ticket*
Q* Were any conditions asked or any guaraitta of landing
given
A* No*
any conversation with anybody about landing
A* No.
Q* What does he say-his name is*
A* Moy Shea Kwal*
Q* Where did he say he got his pass port from
A* The Viceroy in Canton City
ft* Did he bring it over with him*
A. Yes I brought that with me.
Q. Who did he give it to when he get hero*
A. X did not give it to anybody but the ether day when I
came hore to give my statement I handed it_ over to this
\     officer*
Q* What did
chant's certificate cost him
A* I got this from the government. It coot me $90
Q. That is Mexican*
d* Yes*
ft* Does he know anyone in Canada*
1* No I do not*
i* Did he write and tell anyone he was coming*
i* I did not*
4* What place is he going to in Canada*
L Coming to Vancouver*
i* What, business does: he intend to engage in* *
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A*
have
not made up my mind*
ft* Eow much money has he*
A* I brought along $150 for expenses
ft. In Gold*
A. In gold coin*
ft* Any draft*
A* No*
Q* Any letters of credit.
At' No*
Q* Where did you get this |150
A* I exchanged goods in my store*
ft a He brought it with him from Canton to Hong Kong*
A* Yes*
ft* And then brought It on board the steamer*
A. Yes*
*
ft. What business die he pursue in China*        I
A* Dry  goods*
ft. Is he going to the United States*
A* No*
ft. Is ho traveling alone pr In company with others*
A* I came.alone*
ft. Did he know any others on board thi ship*
A* On board the boat I was sea sick but since then X have
got acquainted with then now*
4* He did* not know any of them in China*    £
■
A* No.
ft
And never seen any of ithem in Canton
a*  /  j5w
A. No*        /
ft. Has he ever been in Canada before*
A. No*
ft. How long does he Intend to stay here
A* Cannot tell* #t>
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Mr* Parr
package
of letters to you*
know I hande
something X do not
know what it is*
Q* Why did he give It to you*
A* When I. was going on board the steamer in Hong Kong*
a fellow handed mc this package and told me to take it
over with me and
M
MM
steamer reached!'the land
you will see somebody come on board* You hand it to him
and he will-know where they go.
ft* How did he know.What made him think you were the person
to give it to
A* I do not knew that I was handing it to you particularly
but my instructions were if a Chinaman came down there
to hand it to him. v
*
Q. He saw the contents of this package open in his presente
by you and the letters anwlra
counted*
aV*Ct».l-*t..
•;*•*•/■!•>•
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A*" Yes* After you opened the package and you counted them
1 know tho contents.
ft* And those letters were given to Mr. PosJer in his pres]
A* Yes you came down with him f that Is referring to Mr*
and
hand over to a chinaman
that comes down in the boat*
ft* Where did you get these letters*
A* It was handed to me on the wharf in Hong Kong, and
bring
know
man
handed it to me and I took it.
ft* Were any of the witnesses'friends with him when he left
Hong Kong*
A* My cousin Yung Tie saw me get on board the boat*
man
Ik to your cousin
Whether he talked to him I do not know
is
handed them to me was lust at the momoi 1
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Zaaving, and he handed then to me*
ft* How long had your cousin been with you up to the time
the nan came*
A* Net very long as he told the porter to put my luggage
amer
man came along
ft* Was anything to be paid to you for bringing these letters
over
A* No*
ft* How did this man know where you were going*
A* He asked my cousin where I was going, and my cousin told
him those are the people going to Canada*
ft* Did he
Canada
A* He says Vaneouver *
ft* Mr. Griffin: These letters are entirely new to me. They
may have a bearing on this man being a
merchant but there has been no suggestion
that they are. They may disclose a plot to
murder the Emperor of China or the King of
' England, but do they have any bearing on the
question of this man being a merchant• and if
not am I not write in saying the time is being
lost as far as this inquiry is concerned*
My friend may have something back of this
entirely unknown %o no but so far it has not
had anything to do with the status of this man
as a merchant*
21-
Btr. Parris: X do not think my learned friend need come  I
here to save the time of the Government*
Mr* Griffin: But it is for the Comptroller to say if there
is anything in that point* Whether it is per-
I       tlnent.
Mr. Parrl
Mr. Griff
that part of it anyway
Are I!
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Mr* Parris: They are not in my possession at the time*
Mr* Griffin: Do they bear on the subject or on some
part of the discussion*
Mr* Parris: I think they do*
Mr* Griffin: Of couse if they are not here.we cannot h
them
Q. Mr. Parris: Where did you have your photograph taken
A* Canton City
ft. Who told him to have it taken*
A* Wheh I "petitioned to the Viceroy for the nassoort I i
told to bring my photograph*
ft* Was it Lue Yu Gee that told him to do this
pay
A. Yes*
ft. Was it Lue Yu Gee that he paid the $90 to
A* I go to the Viceroy to get the certificate
this money to where I got the certificate*
ft. How long has he known Lue Yu Gee*
A* I do not know the man
*
ft* When did you first;meet him.
A. I do not know who is Lue Yu Gee*
- yi
ft. How did Lue Yu Gee*oome to tell aim to get his photo-
graph taken
A* I went; to t]
and
explained I was doing;business at home and I Intended to
extend my business, so he told ne, you must come along
with tho photograph, and he investigated and he did
investigate that I was a business man*
ft•iWho investlgated*
a
A* X do not know who goes to investigate
ft* Ho has not answered my question, I asked him how Lu
Gee came to ask him to get his photograph taken
A* When I went there to get the certificate he told me
ft. Who* f
r
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a- 49
A* I do not know what hie name le, but when I eo in
to get the certificate ho told ae to get the photo-
s
graph*
ft. But he has already told us that Lue Yu Gee told hia to
get the photograph*
A. Whenyou ask me Lue Yu Gee I did not know him*
Mr. Griffin: The man takes it for granted the stranger
who told him Is the name the Icrraed
counsel puts In hie mouth* I think it
is an unfair way of putting the question |
Mr. Parris: I do not think ay way of putting the
question is at all unfair•
Mr* Griffin: It has turned out to be*
ft. Mr. Parris: Tell him that one of his fello-passengore
has stated that he paid #1200 Mexican
for his certificate and ask him If he did
not pay thej 	
A* I did not pay money to people to get that I personally
petitioned to the Viceroy to get that*
ft* Who told him he had to have a certificate*
A. It is a law in this country they allow merchants coming
here to Canada and right along merchants havo been
obtalnlng certificates to come to Canada
ft* And if they are not merchants, does he know what the
effect is*
untry have to pay
A* Laboroers coming to t
ft* Does he know how much
A. #500 gold*
ft* How did he get all this information*
A* I hoard that in Canton City
ft. Prom whom*
Aa By partners talked about it*
ft* Who went to get this passport for him
Mr
There la no evidence that anybody went ItJt
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Mr. Parris: Surely Mr. Comptroller, Br* Griffin is not
to be allowed ti make any objections ff
that kind*
*
n Mr* Worsnop: Has ho not answered that already
Mr* Parris: Possibly he has, but X may want to lead
from one thing to another*
Br* Griffin: Ie it not an attempt to lead the witness
to say that somebody else went to get
that*
Mr. Parris I Possibly so. The
cs
oming
under
these circumstances are all tainted with
suspicion, and an endeavor should be made
I
to get from these men the fullest ind
formation possible. We have permitted my
friend to be here and correct any errors
when there has been any and to cross -
examine, but it is going tto far to
allow him to sit here and dictate what
questions I should put.
Mr. Worsnop: Ask the question*
Mr
I press the point•
giving him
impression that somebody went for it, the
m
a
Intimation is that somebody is and it is
a
*
asking the witness to pick out who did It
as you say somebody did it.
Mr* Worsnop: I think the question is all right•
Mr. Griffin: I think it Is putting the man in the
position that only the most skillsd and
intelligent people would be able	
Mr. Parris: We are not here to help him out.
Mr* Poster: The man is asked a straight question. He
surely knows who went
Mr* Worsnop: I have ttld Mr* Farri 5
. .;'•
was en-ii
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Q» Br. Parris: Who went to get the passport for him*
4
A* X got it myself*
ft. Was there anybody with him*
A. Nobody go with me*
ft* How did he know where to go.
A* All Chinese merchants that go over here always get a
passport from the Province where the Viceroy is
ft. How did he prove to the Viceroy he was a merchant
A. I petitioned to him and told him who I was. where my
business was situated and what the name of my firm and
*
told him my partners wanted to send me to Vancouver
Canada, to open our business and begged for his
■
Honor to grant a certificate*
ft* And did he take this petition to the Viceroy himself
A* X didjt
ft* And did he get the certificate then and there*
Aa I petitioned the Viceroy and got the certificate and
took the certificate to the British Consul.
ft* He says he got the certificate at the Viceroy's
A. Yes*
ft* And how long did he have to wait there before he
got his certificate*
A* 10 to 20 days*
ft* Did he do anything in the mantimo in connection with
the matter*
A. No I did not do anything in connection with it*
ft* When was his photograph taken to the Viceroy*
A* The day he granted this certificate* I took the
nhoto&ranh and that is the time he pasted it on
and after I got It I took it to the British Consul
Ask him to face this up and see if it is correct.
He first personally went with the petition to the
*
Viceroy. »  **« i.
J     J
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- 62
Be then loft it there and did not eee the Viceroy again
a
until he #etk the photograph back*
A* Yes*
ft* Did ho eee anybody else during that time in regard te
the matter*
A* Ho I did not see anybody else In connection with It*
ft. Then he went back and took the photograph. How long
after he gotkthe photograph did he get his certificate
A* I only had to wait somewhere over an hour
Q* Who told him to go to the British Consulate*
A* His Honorable the Viceroy*
ft. Had he been acquainted with the Viceroy before he
petitioned him*
A* I had not*
ft* How long before he went to Hong Kong did he get this
passport or how long after ho got his passport* did
he go to Hong Kong* I want to know how many days after
he got the oertifioate did he go to Hong Kong.
A* A little over 10 days*
ft* Then how long was he in Hong Kong before he sailed
A. 2 or 3 days*
Mr, Griffin: No questions*
P0:iG YES KWONG Applicant*
ft, Mr. Worsnop: What is his name
A* Pong Yoe Kwong*
4* Any other name*
A* No other name*
ft. How old are you*
A* £5
ft* Is he married*
A* Married*
ft* Where is his wife living* '
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A* District of Sin Nlng.
*
Q. What Is her name %44
4* Lea Chee*
Q* How many Children*
A* None.
ft. Where does his family live*
A* Chong Ha Chung*
ft* What does he do*
A* Silks and Satins*
ft* Where is his last place of residenoe*
A* Canton City
ft* Does he Intend starting business in Canada*
A* Yes*
ft* What business*
A* I have not investigated yyet* Whatever is the best*
ft* Has he any partners in business*
A* Yes*
ft. How many
A* 4 shares*
<•
ft That is 3 partners*
e
A* Yes 4 Including myself*
1
*
ft* What is the firm name*
*
A    *
A. Doo Hing*
ft* And address* |
*
A* 98 Dartone Street,
*'
Q» How much money is invested in tho business*
. *
A.  The  original capital #40,000
*
ft* How much has each partner*
A. Each holds $10,000
'        *  -
ft* Why is he coming to Canada.
A* X heard business is good ever here*, and X came over
to extend my business*
Q* Prom whom did he purchase his ticket T
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A* If have my business in Canton City
*
Hong
ft* Does he know who his friend get it|from*'
A. He got it front Chung Hing Co*
ft* How much did,he pay for It*
A* #85 Gold*
ft* Were any conditions asked or any guarantee of landing
*
given*
A* No*
ft. Has he a passport*
A. I have*
ft* Where Is it*
A. Here ii is*      ■ '* "
Q. How much did you pay for this*
A. Including the* expenses I got it from the Government-
It cost me #92*
*
ft. That is Mexican. *
*/
A. Yes*      V
ft* Does he know anyone in Canada*
A*|No*
ft. Did he write and tell anyone he was coming*
A. No*
ft* What place is ha going to In Canada*
A* This city here*
a»
ft* How much money has he*
A. #90 gold. |,
ft* Has he got it with him*
A* I have got it here*
ft* Hew much more money have you.
A. The King Pong Co,draft* (Draft produced #660*)
ft. Is he going to the United Statoa*
A* X Just come to Vancouver*
A. He does not Intend to go to the United States. ■'
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A* No*
ft* Is he travelling alone or in company with others
A. I came alone•
ftt Does he know any others on board*
A. I donot know them*
ft* Does he know them at all*
A* Do not know them*
ft. Has he ever been in Canada before*
A. No* \
ft* How long does he intend to stay here*
a
A. Do not know. I have to settle in business here, 3 or 4
years it is uncertain*
ft* Mr. Grant: How long have you been in business in Banton
A. 4 years as a merchant•
ft. What were you before you were a merchant*
A. I studied at school*
ft. You have never, done anything else accept being a student
and a merchant.
A* That is all*
ft* When did you first take up your residence in Canton
A. Ever since I was the age of 18
ft* How long have you known about Canada*
A. 2 or 3 years*
ft. And when you learned about Canada you learned they were
keeping laborers out did you not*
A* Yes*
ft* And that merchants came in free
A. Yes* *
ft. Was your business in a bad way in Canton* Was your
business poor in Canton*
4
A. Business is good but I heard business here was prosperous so I came over*
ft. Who told you business was prosperous in Canada* ■B
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A* Just heard from the merchants*
ft. Just some merchants; In Canton*
A. Yes.
ft>
Q. Were many merchants In Canton coming to Canada
A* I? do mot know about that*
know |of any other merchants that were coming
all
A. Do not knew* f -   f
ft. When did you first decide to come to Canada.
A. Just this year.
ft. How early this year.
A. The 2nd of the 3rd month.
ft. This year the present year*
A* Yes*
ft* Mr. Worsnop: He means the Chinese year.
A. Yes*
ft. Mr. Grant: Did you ask anyone how to get to Canada*
A* I did not ask any one.
ft. Who told you how to get to Canada.
*
A* I just came mys&lf*
ft. Did anyone tell you how to get a passport*     %
A* I wait ^with a namesake of mine* who is an official to
go to the Government to get it*
ft. Why did you go -to -get a passport*
A* You require a passport otherwise you could not cone in
ft* Who told you that*
A* The Mandarin told me that«
ft. Mr* Griffin: That is the official X suppose*
A. Yes* |
ft* Mr* Grant: Hew did you come to go to this official and
talk about Canada*
A* I told this official that I heard Vancouver was very
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prosperous in business and that I would come to
m
Vancouver to start a business*
ft* Was this official a friend of yours*
A. a namesake* m
ft* What do you mean by that*
A* Mr. Lew: How you want to put it* Tho Chinamanjw
it a cousin I guess*
ft* Mr. Worsnop: Is he a blood relation.
4  /
A. No*
ft. Mr* Grant: Did you know him well*
namesake of mine and
an official*
ft. What office does he hold*• What is his office*
A. Mr. Lew: I will havo to ask the Consul.
Dr Chang: It is a small title* It simply meant the
gentry like the♦ squires of England, a man of
gentle birth* The Portugese call a Chinese of
e
I gentle birth a Mandarin It is not a Chinese
word at all* I would call it a Portugese
imposition.
. v
4* Mr* Grant:This man you speak of is not an official at
all
A* No not hold office*
ft* And he told you it would be necessary te get a passport
A. Yes*
ft. And did he tell you what you would have to do to get
that passport* How to get up the petition and what the
/. petition contained.
A. I do not know* I did not get tha
ft. Did you see it at all
A. I did not see the petition.
ft. Did you take it to the Viceroy*
A* I want with this gentleman to th
up
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ft* How many times did you go to tha Viceroy*
A. Twice*
ft* What did you do the first tins you went there*
A* The first time when I put it there he said all right
leave it here* Walt until I investigate you store, your
firm and the next ti
I went there he said he had
investigated and granted me this passport*
ft* Did you take your photograph with you the second ti
A* I did.
ft* And did ho paste it on after the second time*
A* Yes* I
ft* You did not take your photograph at all the first ti
you Juct took tho petition*
A. Yes*
ft. What did you do with that after the Viceroy gave It to
you*
ft* Mr* Low: You still refer to the certificate
A. Mr. Grant: Yes.
A* I then took it to the Consul at S
Inn
ft* The Consulate where* I
A* Canton City, Sam Inn la the name of the little island
where the foreign settlement is
ft. Did you see the Consul write this on*
A* There were several persons there I do not know which
one wrote It*
ft. Was fWtH  it an Englishman who wrote It*
A* It waa white people English people*
ft* When was that* When did you go to the Consulate*
A* in the 5th: month of tho present Chinese year*
ft* Do you remember on what date of the 5th month
A. I do not r
mber*
ft* Have your partners get any friends in Canada at all
A* No* I
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ft. You do not know anyone in Canada at all*
A* Do net know anybody
ft* Who bought your steamboat ticket for yon
A. We went and reserved it
ft*'Where  -
A* ffhung Bing Co*
ft* You went yourself did you
A* I requested a friend of mine
ft. What is his name
A* Pong Man Heck
ft* Where is his business or has he a business
A* Goldsmith shop
% .
4. Where
A* In Hong Kong
/
ft* How long were you in Hing Kong before the boat sailed
a a
A* X only-leteyed in Hong Kong 4 days*
ft* Where did you stay
A* Wing Sing Lung
ft* Did Lue Yu Gee see you at all in Hong Kong
A* I do not khoW the fellow
4. Do your remember a man coming to the boat Just at it
r went out and handing up a bundle of letters
A* Does not know
ft. Were there any chinaman at the wharf that you knew
when the boat went out
A* No* T
ft* None at all
A* No
ft* Ask him if he "r©members It being arranged that a letter
would be sent to Vancouver by the same boat as himself
to help him to land
A* NO a .-
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ft a As far as you
Hltblt  request*
A* I did not se
your
any
ft. Did you ask your cousin to send anyf letters or any of
your friends*
A* No* T
ft. If a letter was Sent by the same boat as you came stating
that you wore coming on the boat and' they wanted you
xplain
that should be.
A* I do not know anything about it.
ft* You cannot understand why a letter should be sent can
you
A* No there would not'be a letter 6f that sort*
ft. Mr. Grant: Mr. Lew is that name Pong Yu Kee
a
A* Mr. Low: That He the sender of the letter* yes
ft* Mr. Grant: Do you know Pong Vue Kee*
A. Bo I do not know him
ft. Do you remember stating to Mr. Lew the interpretor here
bundle
the £oat*
know
any
#.Letter.
among
table
A. I did not ^olnt It lout to you. I have no letters!
f
ft. IDid yon suggost there was a letter there*
A. I did not. I iave got no letters.
Q. What is your father1s name *
A. Peng Mun Pugh      ^'      "
ft. What does ho do
A. In the home village*
ft* What is his occupation. mJ
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anything • -any
ft. Where did you get?that draft.
A*
firm and told this firm
send it over here*
$• Did thoy send all the money you had*
A. I have-got plenty of it yet*
ft* How much did thoy charge you for this draft*
Mr
a
unt In Mexican
paid for it*
A* Mr* Grant: Yes. |.
A* The Applicant: I got over #10,000 left*
J  I ask him to send this much and he did not give me an
account and therofore I do not know what the charge is
*  ft ^
ft* Does that $10,000 belong to you.
A* Yes.
ft* Yourself alone*
an
ft. That money was left to you.
A* Yes that is my own.
ft* How long ago was that left to you.
A* That was left to me since I went into business.
ft* And you let it stay in this firm all the time did you
A. Still left with them .i
ft* Where does that firm do business.
A. In Hong Kong* Wing Lock Street*
know that King* Pong
draft*
A* I left tho money atathe other end for them to send over
ft* Did you ask who King Pong was when you get the draft
A* He told me he would send the money over to King Pong in
Vancouver
ft* How long befor
A* Just two days*
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ft* What are you worth ^personally, how much are you worth
1
yourself*
A* Something over #30,000
* .
ft* Mexican
A. Yes* y f
ft. Did you know any of the mon on board the boat until
you got on it*
A* No.
ft. Have you found out since who were on tho boat, ,what .they
do
ft* Mr* Lew: That is tho men en board with him.
A* Mr* Grant: Yes*
A* Applicant: I do not know,
ft
ft* You have not asked them
A* No I did not askithem
ft* Mr* Griffin: Will you tell him that I am acting for him
that I was engaged to come here and give
hlmiany help I could
A* X did not engage him. I do not know him
A* Toll him I was engaged by another man*
A* I heard that all the returned men were released and the
merchants! detained* It might have been the Chinese
merchants to look after.
ft* Ask him did he see this draft before the other half was
torn off*
Mr. Grant: That is a bright suggestion to make, if my
learned friend wants objections*
Mr.Griffin: Ask him if there was any other half to th:
draft*       |
Mr* Grant: That is the same thing*
Mr* Griffin: No ask him if there was any more to this
draft on the other end of it*
Hong
other half and I kept this aW^fifi    Jfv T
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half.here to got the money
What does the Hong Kong e»
What
they do with their half*
A* Just keep it for the purpose of idenfication or seme
other purpose I do not know
Aak him if Hong Kong should
that
this draft will be presented, ask him if the banker there
who made this draft should tell King Pong Go. that'they
are drawing en them for this money
A* I just asked them to send the money here I did not tell
them to write but they must write to advise over here.
ft* Ask him what name this is.
A. Lee Pack Sing
ft* Who is he.
A. A friend of mine
■
ft* What is his name theretM  for
A. On account that X have not got time to look after it  w
I sent Lee Pack Sing to buy this draft for me, therefore
his name appears on It.
King Pong was here this morning
said
I aught to be signed wi
him if he knew* anythi
ank
hat*
A* Will all the drafts that I know if is never signed, just
recognize the stamp that is all
ft* And* ask him if he knows that that itamp is the stamp ff
the Bank he has his money with
A. Yes that is the stamp
ft* Mr. Grant: You said you were too buay to go and get this
*
draft so you sent Lee Pack Sing.
A* I-sent Lee Pack Sing.
ft* So you did notjgo yourself did you*
a
A. I was busy.
ft* Who Is Lee Pack Sing     4 ft*
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A* A friodn of mine
ft* Where dee8 he live*
A* Sin Wing
ft. What does Lee Pack Sing do
A* General merchants
ft* What firm Is he in
A* I do not remember the name of hi      	
ft* How long have you known hia
A* Just got acquainted with hia through buslno
ft. Row long
A. 2 years.
ft. What kind of business has he
A General merchandise
e
ft* Do you know his partner
A* Do not know
ft* Do you know the street he does business on
A. I do not know the store, but I think it|	
Lang Street.
ft* And you sent him from Sin Hing to Hong Kong to get you
this draft*
A* Yes.
ft* How many days before you went to Hong Bong*
A* 3 days*
ft. And when you got to Hong Kong how soon after you got
there did you see Lee Pack Sing
A* I told him to got this draft and when you get It to
leave It with Wing Sing Lung
ft* And when you got to Hong Kong you wnet to Wing Sing Long
A* Yes*
ft. And the draft was there when you got there
A* Yea*
ft* And you did not go te the bankers at all yourself
A* Afterwards I went there, and he told| •-
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Blxed and I gave it to your cousin
ft* Thebanker told you after he had given it*
Mr. Griffin: After he got it.
ft. Mr. Grant: Be^ Loo Pack Sing is your cousin
A. No just a friend
ft. He says the banker told him he had given it to his
cousin
A. It is
nker sent this draft to Wing Sing Lung
ft. Did you give hem  Pack Sing a letter when he left Sin
a
Bins •
A. Yes*
ft. Whom was the letter to
A* ftuong Wing the banker
ft* And you do not know where Lee Pack Sing■ s business is
at all
A* Just know him. Do not know his address*
Mr
know that Lee Pack Sing has a business
A* Yes*
ft. And has he ever been there and seen the place
A. Yes, I have been there.
ft/ Mr. Griffin: Will you let him know that he will get his
draft back.
Mornigg Session, Saturday Oct* 1st, 10 A.M.
WONG CHIN Applicant
ft* Mr. Worsnop: What is his name
A. Wong Chin
ft. Any other name
A. Chock Han *
ft. How old -      s
A
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A* 30
«.♦ Berried or single
A* Married
ft* Ie his wife living
A* Living
ft* 9mr turn*
A. Chin fhee
ft* How many children
A* 8
ft* Boys or girls
A. 1 boy a
ft* Name and
1 girl
a of eaoh
A. The boy Bing Chun aged 3 and the girl Bai Bee
ft* How old
A. 5
ft. Where does hit family live
A* Canton City
ft. What is hi business or celling
A. Exporter
ft. What doee he export
A* General Merchandise
ft. Where does he send it te
A. Beat Of it to the American side
ft. Does ho do any bun 1 noes with any ceaeem direct en the
American aide
A* the usual pr otice with us is to r solve order? froa
Bong Bteig and tha Hong Kong people receive orders froa
other people and we receiver our orders froa Bang Seat aai
ship then to
Cong and thuyahip
te the ether
people * x know one fira in Lee Angelee# *aaag fibang
ft* Whore did he last reeide.
A* Canton City * •
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ft* Ho came direct here-from there*
A* X left Canton City and stayed in Hong Kong a couple
Of days and then came direct over hero*
ft. Doea ho intend starting business here*
A. Yes.
ft. What kind of business
A* X will investigate and see what ie the best
ft* Has ho any partners in business
A. I am in partnership with my unole^
ft* Just one partner
A* Yes*
ft* In Canton City
A. Yes in Canton City
ft. What is his uncles name
A. Ding Chow
ft. Bow long have they been in partnership
A* 6 years
ft. How much money ia invested in the business
A* #16000. Mexican money between the two of ue
ft. Each an equal share
A* Bach an equal share
ft* What is his firm's name and address
A* ftuang Sang Pong, Street Bhung Cow Po
ft $ffi$0  Why are you coming to Canada
A* I want to extend my business
ft* Prom whom did you purchase your ticket
A. I sent down to HongrKong and asked them to reserve
passage*
ft* Whoa
A* Chong Lung Co*
ft. .How much did ho pay
A* #200 Hong Kong paper money wt.
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Ux
might explain that there
mu
tinos a difference be tween silver and paper
over there a sort of Exchange
ft* Wore any conditions aaked, or any guarantee or landing
given at the time he purcnased hi ticket
A* No*
4. Nothing et all
A* Ho all ho said was this, this Is a ticket for Inter-
A* mediate passage and this will reach there*
ft* No conversation regarding landing
A* Bo
ft* Has he a passport
A* I have
ft* Produce it
A* That was exhibited in the office hero before*
(Passport produced as exhibit A*)
ft* What did that cost you
A* $92 Mexican
ft. Do you know anyone in Canada* ,
A* X do not know anybody
ft* Did you write and tell anyone in Canada you were coming
A* I wrote several steamers before this I wrote to someone
here inquiring how long the train arrived here between
here and Cumberland but I did not receive any answer
ft* To whom did ho write
A* Tuey Quack ftue, who resides in Toronto
ft. Did anybody in Canada write to him
A* Bo
ft* To what place is he going
A. I intend to come hero and see whether it is good or
and if it Is not I will go
ft* What business does he intend to engage In
A* I want to see whatever ie the best ever here
ft* How much money has he
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A T hay© a draft from hoae to here for $1200. gold
ft Has he got it here.
A Ye s. *
ft Let us see it*
Dr. Chang*- That is the form of a letter.
A APPLICANT: That is the only draft I have*
ft MR* WORSNOP: Will you translate it Mr. Lew*, and Mr.
Cumyow you^followU
ft DB* CHANG: What is the seal.
A MR* SiEW
right
He a ay 3 he does not know what the seal is
sender said X will sign it and It will be a]
This Is a form of letter more than a draft•
As I translate it it says* On prcsentaticnior on sight
you will please pay to Wong Chun or ftuang Sang Chung
the gold #1200* only, which{he endorsed. Wong Chin
oarae on the Empress of China to Canada*
DB* CHANG: The literal translation is English Territory
bat it means Canada. '      I
MR* LEW "Te engage .In business. Hand this money to
him and get him to sign a receipt and notify us."
This letter^ is addressed to Hung Pumg Co. Dated the
7 month the 4th day*
ft MB
know
town
MB* LEW AHD MB. CUMYOW: Not In this town*
MB. LEW: The sender of this letter ftuang Yuk Wak and le
a red seal which the Chinese ttse for writing letters
The Chinese Consul .asked the witness and he says he does
not know what that seal is but the sender said it was
all right.
know where this firm BaLng^Peng
is
A   He says in Cumberland*
ft   Have you a B* 0* Directory here, Mr* Pagan
A    Mr* Pagan: Yes* . ■.•::
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A   Bo*
A
A
going to  the United
ft    Is he traveling alone mr In company with others
A    X came alone*
ft   Did he know any others in the party
quainted with
the boat had
landed hero.
ft He did not know any of them in China at all
A Bo not until ho got here.
ft Has he ever been in Canada before*
A Be.
ft How long does he Intend to stay*
know not until
ft MB* WOB
Mr. Parris
ft MB. PARRIS: Ask him where he got this pass port •
A Prom the Viceroy*
ft The Vlooroy in Canton.
A In Canton.
ft How did he get it, did he get it by a petition.
A I have a nephew in oft lie go and he went with ne to get
the petition for It
ft You did not go to the Vioeroy* yourself*
A Yes*
ft Did you see the Viceroy*
A No I just petitioned.
ft What did you do with the petition.
A My nephew prepared the petition and I gave him two
photographs and he handed in to the place where they
receive petitions at the VioeBoys
ft Then he did not personally go himself*
A My nephew prepared the petition and he handed it |ia
we went into
hand them
did not see the Viceroy. ft^tf
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Q Ho* long after that-did he get his certifioat*.
ft)
A About twenty idd days.
ft Xn the meantime did he do anything to satisfy the
Viceroy what he was*
A After X petitioned they sent some officer to investigate
X was a merchant*
and
about a week after that they sent some one to tell me
that It was ready for me*
name
thing
A Ah Kee/
anything to do^with getting
it*
A I do not know him*
ft Bow much did he pay for it*
A #92* in all.
ft   Ask him how many names ae has got
A   Wong Chin-;*
Wong ftuaok Hung
Wong ShoW Chew*       ;
ft Is his name ftuang Quack Hung
*
A   My surname is not ftuang*
m\    What    is it.
A   Wong
three sets of nam
MR. LEW: If the Comptroller wiUf permit
the
name a his married name and
boy hood* name. * *
ft   Ask him if he remembers writing a letter to Chuck Bun
A
wro
ard
boat.
t       i
ft And he* gave that letter to Mr. Lew and did he
A  ■
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Q Mr
ans you Mr
A MR. lEWt ' Yes.
Q MR. FARRIS: What does ho mean by that.
A He a ays when you went on board tho boat, you were
inspecting the boat and you asked for my pass pert
and X shewed that to you and I told-you that X de no
know what the? Customs of this country are and you
said if I know one Yip Ting Sam he is the customs
interpreter and I said ne and then you instructed^me
Ting Sam
Then
any cousins* or friends en thla wide and X told yon I
had not only just one and his name Is Wong Chuok Mun
Then you, told ne tt also write te Wong Chuo Mun then
further told me you must write* to him
ai
do not under st nd the customs ofer here and then you
further said that I must write to him before you could
Ibe landed.
ft Mr* Parris: Anything more*
A You further eald to not write to mo but to write to
Yip Ting Sam.
ft That is not to write to you Mr. Lew*
A MR. LEW
Yes.
4 MB. LEW: Then after X wrote them I handed them to
you and you took the lettere away*
(when 1 mention the second person it refers to Lew,
myself) (that is what he says X eald en board)
ft MB. PARRIS: Ask him If he did write the two letters*
A  I did.
ft   Does he remember what he put In the letter te Chuck
pSXLBLm
MB. GRIPPIN: Before anything"is given about the letters
know anything
They
produced or shown to us*tbut before thielman is examined **£
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on them they ought to bo produced te him* the document
shown to him and ask him if he wrote that
letter*
MR • PARRIS
asking him if he remembers what he
wrote in that letter.
MR
He le entitled to hve the letter before
him*
MR. PARRIS: It ia absolutely absurd....
MR. GRIPPIH: Opinions may differ as to absurdity. But
It is a well known rule in the Statutes before a
* §
witness can be asked &£ as to
document he aus
It brought before him before he can be put to the
trouble of cross examination on that document* I do
not think that it ie only unfair but it is not In
addordance with the rules of court* I de not know
that the Comptroller Is bound by the rules of evidence
but it would be a good rule to follow, and surely the
man ough
is accused of writing
d as to what he wrote
MB* WORSNOP: Mr. Poster have you any objection yourself
to s tat ing to Mr. Griffin , what took plaoe in connection
with this letter*
a
MR* PARRIS: If Mr* Griffin wants to know what the letter
MR
would
ding the translation te him
, great help to me. I wanted
have
it myself*
MR. WORSNOP
You might tell Mr* Griffin where the
original letter is*
MB. PARRIS: I believe it is in Ottawa at present*
This Is the translation of the letter, which was taken
at the previous inquiry* *Qt
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MR. FARRIS:
MR. GRAIN!*
MR. WORSHOP. I think that with th* «x**ptiea of Mr. Farri*
' Mr. Grant and Mr. Griffin, w  wore all
|| her* at the previous inquiry.
You oan read it Mr. Griffin.
Yes it has just occurred to me that there
are a great many Chinamen who aill not admit
that they understand English and it is just
an added precaution.
MR* GBIPPIN: I would like to again bring before You Mr.
Comptroller, the unfairness of an examination
having taken place on that very letter and ft
being In t
*_« » a.-t-. a
writing and being in
I    l this room In the presence of Government
officials without counsel for the accused
having a chance to read the letter*
MR. PARRIS:  If you want a chance to study the letter you
can. you oan have it and you can read tho
examination of this witness en that letter,
that is all I am giving you.
MR* GRIPPIH: All right I will take it now*   i# |*t
MR. WOBSNOP
The letter was produced and shewn to the
witness and he admitted having written it*
MB* PARRIS:  Apparently the examination begins here about
the middle of that page, I do not want you
to assume we are worie than we are*
MR* GRIPPIH: No but the way you keep It back puts you en
the defensive*         	
MR. PARRIS: Bet at all*
MB* GRIFFIN:     I havesrea
that ax>t)ear8 jto deallwith
that letter* I now desire to read it from end
to end, I propose to do so.
MR a WORSNOP: It is not in my control at all*  *  &
MB* GRIFFIN
Then I have read all that bears en that le V
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j* 75
maintain
ground that it is not nearly
complete or sufficient abrogation of the unfairness
complained of*
MR. PARRIS:  If you Want to read all the examination of
this particular man you are welcome to do so
MR* GRIPPIN: If
anything
then I would like to.
MR. WORSNOP: There is nothing bearing on his case as far
as I recollect, as far as this Investigation
this morning is concerned, that bears on his
status as a merchant* A lot of It referred to
the actions of others
MR* GRIPPIN:  Then I would suggest that you do not hear any
such evidence, it being suggested by yourself
and counsel that the matters we have before us
does not beer with the inquiry now before you*
MR* PARRIS: Not at all.
MR* WOBSNOP: The evidence taken at the other inquiry was
mainly In regard te certain actions of
altogether different parties. It does not
affect the status of this man at all*
MRa GEIPPIN: Does the inquiry deal with this man's status
as a merchant*
MB* PABRIS: Nothing that affects....
MB. WORSNOP: Mr. Parris would you ask two questions of this
witness. One of them Is is this man ftuang
Quack Hung Is he a blood r elation of the
MR* LEW;
applicant.
Wong Chuck ,Mun
man
uppo
written to, is the man you refer to
MB* WOBSNOP: Yes.
A APPLICANT: He is just my name sake with the same flamily
name* '-
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76
ft Then ask him
understand
know any one in Canada
That
in the list of questions we asked him This
morning
X will read it again to you and you translate It te him
Do you know any one in Canada and if so, whoa*
A X de not know* any one,? all that I remember is :that this
Wong Chuck Mun returned and there la Chuey Wook ftue ho
Is in Toronto*
ft Then why did he not answer his question properly in the
first place.  X know ChUey Week Qua and Chuck Mun*
MR. WORSNOP*  Mr. Consul will you put that ^question
Mr. Lew and Mr. Cumyow oan
DB. CHANG
He
actually does net know any
here but this Chuck Man
plate and he has seen him and the ether one at Toronto
he says ho has heard of.
ft MB. GRANT: He says he met him In hie native tillage*
" ;MR. GRIPPIN: *He did not say met, he said he saw him
is that not right Dr. Chang.
DB* CHANG: He says he seen him*once in his native
village.
ft MB* PARRIS:  Ask him if he recollects thi contents of
the letter to Yin ling Sam*
rexy well now butiat that
MB. PARBIS
ie %o write and I waate
think what X had bette
letter end ha*e it translated and*ask him if that is
correct• "
MR. GRIFFIN:* I object.
unfair
thing
to shew it Is a correct oopy of the letter that is in
before* V
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MB* FARRIS: X am suggesting to put pertain words before
* <
this man and ask him if these words that-
are novr% given to him is In substance what
he wrote*
MR.WORSNOP: X de not see any objection to that. You
%
ask him if that is in substance* He ia
appealing to his recollection.•
MR* GRIFFIN: It is appealing to his recollection to
check him up*§
MB* WORSNOP: He oan simply say he does not recollect it.
MB* GRIFFIN: X take the* same objection if he is going to
b* cross examined on a l.ctartsupposed to
b* written, he ia entitled to have it before
him
MR. FARRI
am not oross examining
MR. GRIFF Of: What do you call it.
MR. FARRIS
examination
it is not oross examination.
MR. GRIPPIN: I think it is most objectionable.*
MR* WORSNOP: X will allow Mr*f Parris to ask hia*
MR* PARRIS: Mr. Lew X want :yout to translate from English
Into Chinese, sentence by sentence what appears
in the transcript and ask him ifithat is in
MB* LEW:
substance what, he wrote.
(Reading from typewritten transcript and
translating into! Chinese)
"Ting Sam, Sir* Greetings: I (obtained pass
poat, or loertificate to come to Canada te
carry on business. Wong Chuck Mun having
landed
Wong
Chuck Mun last month returned to Canada, While
he was at home, he said he? will discuss the
».tter with you to h*refit settled - (m,. j,qw v-e. . 3
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here referred to writer and the writer
said that his intended meaning was when
he was at home he said ho will discuss
the matter with you) " He told me to
take this boat to come here. This matter
you having received instructions from
Chuck Mun, therfore no doubt this
matter will be satisfactory, so I send
you these words. You will ask Chuck
mun for my passage money as I have
given to Chuck Mun before for fear that
Chuck Mun would not know that I came on
this boat so I notify you. Please go
and see Chuck Mun and have it settled
£    and oblige. Dated this present Chinese
year, the 8th Moon and the 15th day.
Mr. Griffin: I wish to call the Comptrollerfs
attention to the fact that he says at
10 oclock this morning he would decide
whether I should be allowed to consult
with these men that I appear for.
Mr. Worsnop: I referred the matter to the Comptroller
*
and have no reply yet.
Mr* Griffin: Surely you can let us have your own
decision, the statute does not indicate
that it is to be referred to the Department
except for your own private reasons, the
f    decision should be of the Comptroller here
and I ask for ykur own decision, as the
Inquiry might be concluded while we are
waiting for the Department's decision
The man may have an explanation of the
statements he has made and to-day he has r
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Uft**. 79
. said that the letter that we havo gone into
he wrote under tho dictation of one- of the
departments unofficial*
Mr* Worsnop: Having referred the matter to the Chief
Comptroller for the Minister's approval-
you will notice tho act reads"subjeot to the
*
Minister's approval" and I cannot give a
decision now.
Mr* Griffin: Cannot, the inquiry stand over until it
arrives*
Mr* Worsnop: I do not think;your client's oase is being
prejudiced* It can be reopened,before the
a
evidence Is sent to Ottawa*
Mr* Parris: The chief concern of myifWend Is that the
 man may; commit himselx*
Mr* Worsnop: I think the fullest investigation should
■
be made* t fully understand your position re-*
garding your client but at the same time I do
not ste that going on with this tho way it Is
is going to prejudice your client
Mr* Griffin: If he needs help at all he needs>it at tho
*
moment, as ay learned friend says he may
f  *   commit himself, if a man goee into court fe4th-»
out counsel he may commit himself, a man will
go to Police court and ask to see the most
obviously guilty man there and every help will
be given him and here is a man charged with
writing letters to people here and of forging
*
e
certificates and all this bears on his right  (
to enter Canada and he is debarred from letting
I      me know what his real point is in writing
these letters and I press the point that that
is repugnant to our sense of justice, if you I
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turn me ont and say 9X
net going to hear
you at all'I will walk out and the man has
te take hie chances and the grievances with
the system, but at the present time I feel
the grievance is to him, inasmuch as you let
him have the counsel and do not let him con
sult with him* Why could not that
t
8 oase
instead
being brought on at first*
Mr* Worsnop: Have you any objection Mr* Parris.
Mr* Parris: I have at this stage of the proceedings, if
it had been requested at the first, it would
have been different but now at this point I
must object*
Mr* Griffin: Mr* Parris has a right to objeot but it
does not go to say that it will appeal to
the Comptroller. Instead of waiting until
the department decision was received they
put him on first, that is obviously done
with the purpose of getting it disposed of
before we can get any light on the subject
Mr* Parris: My friend Is growing very suspicious
Mr* Griffin: I have a right to someone dropped the hint
that there were 15 men anyone of which could
have been put on first and no harm done the
Government*
Mr* Parris: My learned friend will recollect this that
I stated that if this conversation could b
carried on in English I would be willing
undertake that no suggestion could be
do
Mr* Griffin: I would not give any suggestion as counsel
It would be scorned
Mr* Parris: X did not go that far, I am not saying any- *t
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thing again*t itr*
friend ia not in n^onitioa to na&nrmka
that no taking would take place tfce|
offoot the laquiry.
Mr* Griffin: Even if it «ii
Mr* Parrisi
th t I aught to te allowed te corneal t *i«l^
ay client, ewen if it could %e
that ay interpreter, Mr. Cwagr**J
ulterior active to give this nan help.
X cannot help thr»t, all
the atft reliable interpreter
Thin ia not the ease* I	
Mr* Comptroller, you are nuking aa investigation with the assistance of oenaeel
employed by the departaotit^*
night be
through*
Mr* Griffin: Who would coach th
Xr* farrlai Ve deilre
with thle
petition
Imraatlgatioao have a greet effect if
direct with thle
without any efper-
tunity of the party to have e^sggoetleaa
?   I   \  ^nP  ooeahed
node to then or to fee eeaned, n*oa coming
up hero and poeeeealag the inference I
be drawn froa whnt w«
doing le to aake it e
i eo they weald all go
into the •* *in*tt
to go through with It ae there
lo no opportunity for hta te change hie
Br* Griffins Irhat le **eolately unfair*
perfect right to get at what tha
against hln in
at! en
8r. farrla: Shore ia no neeaaatian againsf hia E*i
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MR. VOBSSOP
A
I do not **• any ooj.otlon to going oa
with thi* inToatigatien.
I   MB. !ARRIS: Tom havo translated into Chin***,
A Mr* LEW:
this natter I yat before you*
I did.
Q_ Ask hia what he says ae to that* L
•be**
night
but I do not V
I roaoaber one
that that I did say. "That this Lew
did not receive any words from you*
Q MR* W0B8H0P: Who does he refer to by Lew*
A MB* LEW: That is
Q MR* PARRIS: Ie that all he remembers about what
he wrote*
A It is about what it is*
h This translation is about what It was* ^   a
A Yes*
Q Put this portion to him again." You will ask Chuck
Mun for my passage money I have given Chuok Mun bo for o
A
Q
for fear that Chuok Mun will not know that I o
on
boat,  so I not if J you
Aak hia^lf he remembers
that*
He explains that he did not know what customs waa he
gave Chuok Mun |£00* to get his passage. What I refer to
now is I had given the money to Chuck Man for ay passage.
Then that statement in his
statement of facts was It*
waa a. oorrc
A What X have correoted now la right.
Q "Piease go and see Chuck
*••#
and haa. it aettlod and
oblige" what did ha aaaa fcy that
A You said for
to toll ting Saa bef*r* I ooald b.
landed, a* Z told hia to go
a Wh.r* did he buy hi. tioi.t
•a* Chunk
A
gar* aona7 to Chuok
*• •*• to long Sosg th. fi I
•   .
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5t
A
*f* %  B3m
of Chung Lung te obtain
%   Who gave you tho ticket*
A Ching Lung Go.
Q When did you give the wo
A
Mun
fourth
(* And
A On''
did you get your ticket.
want down to Hong
jEengtand got the ticket.
Q What steps did you take to get it.
A When I went to Chung lung Co. they toldjme they had
reserved%intermediate passage*. *Xt wlU cost you
$190* some odd Mexican Hong Kong note money.
That is what they told me.
Q How did Chung Lung know him to give him the ticket.
A Ching Lung j
Mvv.*t'.t;t
as he puts it is name
*■ * 4 e
surname
as mine* X gave the money to Chuck Mun to have the  I
passage reserved.   t
Q What, did he irrpeot Chuck Mun to do when he met Ting Sam
This letter told Ting Sam j to see Chuck Mun, what did
he expectJ Chuck Mun te de when he saw Ting Sam*
A You told me that I weuld have to notify Ting Sam before
landed
Mun
Sam could* tell him?that I came on this boat*
Q Was that all that Chuok Mun was to do.
A Yes you said I must tell him; so I just sent hia to
Chuck Man so Chuck Mun would toll;him I came*
Q Was there any doubt about his having come on that boat*
A
him if there! was any doubt about his^haviag
\
on that boat,
MR*|IBW: II d
knows
\
under
^
q   MR* PARBIS:    Everybody knew he came on that boat*
<X
knew I came
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Q Did Chuck Mun{know he o
on thla boat*
A
We have no privilege of corresponding before X do
think he knows.
Q When he did know what did ha expect Chuck Mun to do
when he did know*
A I do not know* He would not do much but I was afraid
being a stranger I would not know where to go, where to
get a train to go to other little towns* that le about
all*
Q Ask him if he has not since been told by somebody to
oome here and state that he waste that letter under
Mr* Lew's instruct!one♦
A Ho*
Q Ask him if Chuok Mun did not send him word in some way
to make this statementa
A Ho but on the
ame for me on board
the boat and asked for Wong Chin and said It come froa
a sir, some surname
and I was afraid it was not
for me and would not take it, did not want to receive
It.
Q Did he receive it.
A X asked who Was the name, they were unable to toll
and I was afraid It was a fake and X did not want to
receive it*
Q Did he receive it*
A Ho*
q What did he do with it*
A X did not take it*
q Doe8 ho know who wrote it*   $ «
A I asked him who wrote It and he said it was a naa*
of Chin and X said I do not know thia Chin so I woulj
not take It*
Q Who brought the letter to him* safSJ&iG
t^
*+
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Q Was it a man on the boat*
know if he belong
Q Ask him
exami
not say that Mr. Lew told him to write it*
ft
« MB* GRIFFIN: He said that*
MR* WORSHOP: Yes all through he stuck to that.
MR* GRIPPIH
the
I got the Impression that - I never heard of it before
and got the impression that was the point*
MR* PARE
I have the oopy of the transcript
inquiry here and if you have seen
that Mr
finding
it as I have never seen it*
MB* WORSHOP: He admitted writing it.
MR. PARRIS: There is nothing in Jthe report thatjjie
ever .asserted that Mr. Lew told me,to write it*
MR
and he said he had
not received any inside word from Ting Sam"
MR* PARRIS: The explanation of that is the Lew told
him there had been no word from Ting Same for him but
e
not that Lew told him to write the letter*/ that is a
very different thing, Mr* Comptroller*
q, Tell him that Chuck Mun came to the wharf*. •
MR. GRIPPIH: Do not tell him that as he may not agree
that it is so.
L PARRIS: Tell him that Mr a Poster and Mra Lew*.**
MR* GRIPPIH: We have not heard Mr* Poster say so*
Q MR. PARRIS: Tell him that I say so, that I have been
informed that Mr* Poster and Mr* Lew
Intercepted
Mun to a member of h the Chine
on the! boat. V '-•
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A I'd© *not know about ft*
#
tt Tell'him* we have a letter - where have you the letter
MT* Lew* •
A   MR* LEW:    It has been in Mr* footer's possession ever
Since with the exception of the*translation of it* I
tt    MR* PARRIS:    Ask him if thisf envelope ie addressed to
f him*
A   My name ie Wong Qjia Hung and( this letter*is tttian Qua
?i
Hung*	
tt *Ask him if he thinks that letter is addressed to him.
A X de not think it Is for me as it is a different surname
tt -Ask-him dLf that is so why did he take a letter thrown
in at the window addressed- ihe same way.
MR. GRIFFIN: Ask him if he took it*
tt SMR* PARRIS: Yes ask hta$if he got It, *a letter addressed
the same way thrown in through the window last night
A X did not pick up any *iettefc* * *
tt (MR* LEW : *My question was "A letter addressed to you
like thia fwas thrown in through the 'wind ow last night
tt
did you pick It up, and he said he did not plok it up.)
Ask him if this blank paper and envelope was taken off
hlin this morning.
A X know you got hold off the paper but I do not know
a
froa what pocket you got that»out ofa  He did search
ay pockets but X do not knew if he got it out of my
f pocket or if he had it in his hand* It was this
gehtlemen hafre * " ■ * I
tt Mr* Foster:
A -'Yes*
MR. CUMYOW
He
ay
MM   *-
MR* LEW: Xf you want the exact word, he "touched" my
pocket**  v: e ;' w
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APPLICANT: My coat waa hanging on the well land when
e
X came back from answering my name, X came right out***
tt Ask him where he got these papers*
A I aiever seen them before*
*'
Paper and envelope Jrat in as Exhibits B* and C*
tt Ask him if he will write his name on a piece of paper
in Chinese*
Signature of applicant, Wong Chin put In as Exhibit D*
tt How ask the witness again if he did not see an
envelope addressed like that last night some time or
this morning*
A Ho I did not see any*
tt Ask him if it can be shown that these pieces of paper
Exhibits B* and 0* which were found in his possession
this morning, were put into the detention shed, where
he was, late last night, addressed identically the same
as this envelope,task him what he has to say* t
A I can only say X did not see any*
tt How does he aocount for having those papers Exhibits
B* and Ca in his possession* »
A Well this is only two plain pieces of paper and there
is no writing on it* I pulled Soy coat off when I go
to bed at night* It might be somebody put It In my
pocket it was hung up on the wall•
tt Ask him If along with these pieces of paper there was
*
a letter written to him, in Chinese, the English of
which I will give you and you can translate it Into
Chinese* ff On ao count of so closely watched, can not
come to see you* Enclose you envelope and paper • If
you have any words or arrangements to send out, you
through last window
o'clock and will se
will be passing %0
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nafa I A MR. LEW: I will put thla "Suppeaing you
*
only way* in Chine ae.
A
MR* GRIPPIH: That ie all right*
any
y name I would not take |
MR. PARRIS: You might mirk thle envelope I have been
referring to, The envelope now produced and narked
Exhibit "B" Is the envelope alleged by counsel to have
been intercepted froa Chuck Muni  	
putting in at this stage.
MR. GRIFFIN: I think you oan safely put in the letter
on the same ground as you put the envelope.
MR. PARRIS: I only put in the envelope to
understanding to tho examination of thi]
matter.
MR* GRIPPIH: You have read the letter*
MR* PARRIS: Ho the letter I read is the letter that
was Intercepted, not the letter that was put In the
i which wae ,
window* The letter/nx put In the window last night we
have hot either the letter or the cavelope, but we
obtained from the witness this morning the plain paper
and envelope• which we found on hia*
MR* GRIFFIN: It was on the wall*
MR* PARRIS: Ho it was on him* This plain paper we can
identify from our own private marks on it but the
envelope that I produced and marked
iblt "B* had
nothing to do with that letter except this, that the
letter that was addressed last night was copied exactly
from the letter Exhibit *B"*
MR* GRIPPIH: I understood these two things were found
In his coat and that a letter wae thrown through the
window in that envelope.
MR* PARRIS: Ho an envelope addressed In the I .A.
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will clear that up right away, Mr* Lew explain
him that
Exhibits
an
oame
Exhibit E but in ano
was
e
addressed in the same way.
MR
LEW
m
The annwer
ferring
name, how could he answer
MR* WORSNOP: X might say that decision has been given
in that matter Mr. Griffin: "There is no
authority under the Act to permit the
consultation inferred to by Mr* Griffin***
X suppose then you decide in accordance with
that telegram that you will not permit me
to have any consultation between these
MR GRIPPIN:
detained men  and myself*
/
MR* WORSNOP: That is right, I cannot permit it*
tt ^MR. FARRIS: Ask him if it is not* a fact this morning
the Chinese cook in this room adjoining, opened the
door and called the name on this envelope Exhibit "E"
to those Who were in the whed*
^ *
A MR* LEW: Ask him did he hear*
A MR* PARRIS: Yes. I
A APPLICANT
name
Hung so when I came
and asked what name and he said ttuan
Hung and I said no that is not my name and I retreate
tt When he came to the door dldhe not see Mr. Lew or Mr.
Pester*
A  iUo I did nct| oome to the ^doojf,
same
the kitchen I asked him what name and,he said ttuan Qua
Hung and
and
tt Is it not a fact that he retreated because he saw
either Mr. Lew or Mr* Faatir*
A The deer was closed so how could X see outside
only in j the kitchen* '>>
X was
X X
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Q Then it ie a faot he did not see either Mr. Lew ot
I Mr* Poster*
A No I did not?
You had to go out and call me again.
I saw you when you called me. '*
tt MR* PARRIS;:  I do not know how far you yourself went
into the draft Mr* Comptroller, did you check up how
be got the graft*
MR. WORSNOP: No
I Just
referred it to the Consul*
tt MR. PAR
When
A the •eventh month *
tt In Hong Song. *
A Canton City.
tt Was that before of after you got your ticket.
A I got thatlfirst before I went to Hongkong to take
passage.
tt How much did he pay for it*  f *•
A That draft does not have to cost me anything because
he
§1200* gold in Hing Fung*
I will
give you a letter*to
ting
and whatever the exchange in the difference between
the Mexican money and the gold that could be arranged
later, and taken out of ttuang Sang Chang*
Q Who was it told him this*
A The sender of that.,1 Yook Wa* * \' 1
tt He did not give any money for this draft.
A He has already received §2,000* Mexicans from ttuang
Sang Chung*
tt #2,000. Men*
^
IM
and
settle it up
tt Who is ttuang Sang Chung.
A That is the business I am interested in, my uncle and 1
*&. &
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myself,  and I left ny uncle there new
tt   What ia your uncle's
A    Ting Chow*
tt
him if his uncle le a blood relation of hie
A   Yes blood relation*
tt   Ask him if that Is his uncle's signature* *
A    That Is not my unolo's
tt   Who is that*
A That is my mother's nephew who le in business* He just
returned from America^
tt Ask him if that signature on this draft which we just
pointed out to hia Is not tho same aa the surname as on
the envelope E.
A Two characters the s
tt What does he mean* X asked him what does he say to that
A Yes*
DR* CHANG
If it is his uncle on his mother's side
he must have a different name.
tt MR. PARRIS: Ask him then If t
BUT
the
of the envelope E. belongs to his mother's family.
tt   MR. GRIPPIH:    What is the surname*
A   MR* PARRIS:    ttuan.
A   APPLICANT:    That is my mother's.
tt   MR. GRIPPIN:    Thle draft is signed by ttuan tuck We
Ask
any of his mother * s relatives In that firm
or le It some other ttuan
A No interest,
tt Ask him If that le a different family of ttuans froa
his mother's family.
A My nether*s side
tt   Ask him if Qu
«*«
is Hi common mame
A   Yes it is a common name
tt   Ask him to tell
what you told hia on the boat :    ■      (•>'
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A 92-
Mr* Lew: He says that I instructed him to do certain
things, and I have tolcL him to repeat to hie
own counsel exactly what I told him on the
boat*
iMr* Griffin: That is it exactly*
A* You came on board at Victoria and you started te
inspect the ship and you asked for my passport.you also
asked me If I havo any letters, and X said no, and you
said that will not do* Does Ting Sam know you, and than
you asked me if you have any name sake or cousin on this
side and then I said I havo one Wong Chuck Mun, then
you said you will have to tell Ting Sam and you will
have to send a letter to notify Ting Sam and: you will
have to notify Chuck Mun too and let me know address it
to Ting Sam, and you also put down whatever It cost
you to come whatever it cost of your passage-and you
further said that you would^ have to tell him beforelyou
oould be landed so I wrote them .to be forwarded to* be
carried out by you.
tt. And who Is Ting Sam.
A* You told me there was Yip Ting Sam who is tho Interpretor
tt. Did he see Yip Sing Sam
A* No, I did not you told ma
tt* Ask him if he got all his information about Yip Ting
Sam from; you
A. You said Yip Ting Sam is up there*
tt. Who did he think you were
A* You said this to us, I come in the place of Ting Sam
Mr* Cumyow:"I represent Ting Sam*
Mr. Lew: I prefer"I represent1' "Whatever you have to
say to Ting Sam you Cay to me " That is wha
you told us all
A. Did he understand what Ting Sam's offioial position hri
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was.
A* I do not know him before, not until yeu come down te
Ylctoria. T learn then and you said that Ting San is
the Custom interpretor
Q. Did he think that Ting Sam could help him got on Ichor
A All he said was that you will have to tell him before
you could belauded. e
A. That Is toll Ting Sam
A* Yes.
4. And so you wrote this letter to Ting Sum
A. Yes you told mo tofarri to it
Li* And the other was directed to his namesake! Wong Chuck
Mun
A, Yes I wrote two letters altogether 1
tt. How many steamers did Wong Chuck ttlun come here before
he did
A. The end of the 4th month X gave him money to reserve
passage for mo and after that I atfafc do not know whon
he came
ng
A. Only once in China
tt. And has he-ewer seen him here
A* I did not 4.
tt. What business is Chuck Mun in
A.
know what business he is engaged
side m
tt* How about in China       *
A* He is just at leisure* He haa not much to do in China
tt.SWhy
ticket
stead of getting his own ti oket
A. He come to visit my store, that time he visftedmy
and
only visited my
once that*time >t
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Q. Why did he not get his own tioket instead of giving
#
Chuck Mun the money
A* He had been abroad before and he knew what to do
and X did not, thi&~Weng-Ghuek
tt* Is this Wong Chuck Mun a person of good reputation there
A. He is a wealthy man and he has a lot ff property at
home he is in tho same village as I am
tt* I take it then that he knew this Chukc Mun by reputation
but he only talked to him once
A* When he was in the home village I often heard he had a
lot of money to rend home and he was a reponnlble man
tt. Ask him if he only spoke to him once
A Yes
banking firm Is this firm af ttuan lun
he the banker for his firm In China
A* No
tt. He is not
A. No
tt. How did he come
draft
ttuan Yuck Wa has been in America before
I wanted to come to America and wanted to buy a draft
for my money and he said it was not necessary to pay
the exchange, he said because I have some money in
Hing Pung, I will write you a letter so you could go
and get the $1200 then you could give mo the Mexican
money in ttuan Sing Chang.
tt* What does ttuan Sing Chang mean
A. That is his own firm
Q. Has he paid back the man who gave him that draft for
0
the #1200
A. He already received $2000 from the store before
tt. That is the man who signed this draft he owed the firm
a
$2000 Mexican rr
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A. This 91P00 is gold and h* haa already r*o*la*d |£0
t:t:t
from our store
tt* for the purpose of giving kin this draft
A. Ho he did not say that
tt* Ask him If this man who signed the draft wae pm  indebted to hie firm in China*
A. Ho
tt* How was he going to pay back the $1100 If this man gate
the money from Hing Fung here
Mr* Griffin: Is it clear
Mr* Worsnop: He has paid $2000 in Mexican on account of
the draft and tho balance in to be arrange!
subsequently
tt. Mr. Griffin: What was the reason of writing those two
letters to these two people here
A* Mr* Lew: You refer to these two letters to Wong Chuck Mun
and Hip Ting 8am
A. Mrft Griffin: Yes
A. Applicant: Because you told me to write those so I wrote
tt. Mr. Grant: When Mr
board the boat and told
you he was in place of Yip On and for your to
tell him everything, did you tell hia everything?
A* You asked me and I spoke•
tt* You told him what you had to say what you knew about this
A* He
tt. And
my passport and I gave it to yoi
u, did the interpreter tell you
to write down what you had told him
Mr* Griffin: Xo this going ever new ground or eld
Mr* Grant: The question, will net take any longer than
a
your question, ask hia Mr* Lew if the interpreter told the applicant to write down what
had!toId the
ring San
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A* Yes I told you and you told me
to Ting Sam. II
tt. Ask; him wky when he was examined the other day he
*
did not say the I
this letter to Ting Sam
A. Yes I did not know the customs
were a Chinaman, and you were all right and naturally
what you said was all riprht and
and I wrote, and now it turns
all right.
Mr. Griffin: You have 16 or 17 men here and possibly
Counsel*
Mr
Mr.
some are men  of whom there
much question, why not take the men
about whom my learned friend has not
very much objection,
and get them free, and of those we
examined yesterday I contend the first
and third men were all right, |	
be any serious objection to themJ
press that they be allowed to go.
A. Mr. Worsnop: The matter is in the hands of the Dep-
artment as represented by counsel and
v
they must be allowed to conduct it as they
want to.
Mr. Griffin: Then my remarks are addressed to the
convenient for you to start
at 9.30 in the morning
man
It seems to me there is no real controversy about it. He should be allowed
to be out.
Mr. Worsnop: Mr* Poster has a statement to make ■it
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Mr. Griffin: Surely there is a big difference
#
between the first end last man yesterday
Mr* Parris: I am not prepared to concede^ to day
to day that any of these men should be
allowed to go
Mr* Worsnop: It seems to me that the whole of this
party is tainted with suspicion and
to a large extent as far aa X am in-
C    formed the caaesjt^ very! largely de*
pend one on each other*
Mrj Griffin: Not having heard any evidence to that
effect I was not aware of It
Mr* Farris: In the first place although claiming to
a
be a very wealthy man he comes here with
4
a draft that is not satisfactorily explained at all and in the second place
we find his name in one of these letters
in the bunch of letters which Is one of
*
the facts we maintain make it very sub-
J
picious and I claim those two ciroum-
e
stances justify us in going into the investigation as far as we oan*
Mr* Worsnop: It also says that they shall.establish to the satisfaction of the
Comptroller subject to the approval of
the Minister, and before any releases
can be made the result of the invest!-
gation must bo submitted to the-Minister
for his approval
Mr* Griffin: I assumed that It meant that was only
in cases where in the opinion of the
af        Comptroller, the approval of the Minister r*.
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f  . Is required      f 1  TT
Mr. Griffin: Is there a letter in regard to every one
*
of the 16 or 17 or are there some reference to whom there is no letter, and if
so that would seem to free them from the
main bone of the conspiracy. Some one
if m       fiPhas 8aidtthere were 11 letters and! that
T      would leave 5 of whom there could bo no
serious objection.
Mr. Parris: Mr. Poster wants to make a statement in
' reference to last night's affair. I might
say that betwenn now and Monday I will
consider what Mr. Griffin has said and if
we see our way clear xo do It we will do
-     '    it.'
Mr* Griffin: I think the first and 3rd man made a
thoroughly satisfactory explanation.
Mr* Worsnop: We will let you know on Monday
-How/ Mir* Poster
Mr* Poster: On Monday the 26th of September about 10
I      or 10.50 the Interpreter and I intercepted
tt* JMr*|Graitt:
a letter which was passed from Chuck Man
He was passing it en board the vessel, the
a
Empress of China* We Intercepted that letter
which was Exhibit 5* The man that this was
addressed to would not acknowledge that It
was for him*
That is the present applicant      |
A* Yes* 9 lie would not accept that letter, we believed for
him so last night we had another envelope addressed  I
similar to this one with a letter inside of It which
counsel has read this morning* We put thle letter inside exhibit B* & C.|into an envelope for this applicant ^r
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through the window so he would pick up this letter
*
*
I-put-it-th3?eugh I brought it down at 11.05 last night
and you will notice that letter said about 9 O'clock
the party who was supposed to be his friend would be
along. I was down here about 9 O'clock. I was at the
corner and I say Lew coming up the wharf and we came
and
and
a.
and
showed him this letter and asked him to call that name
that it was addressed to and Lew*wont back out and I
and
rr
and
and so Lew an
coat on and Lew and I got him and in his pocket I found
Exhibits B. & C.
exhibit
tt* Is there any way you have to identi
A. Yes you will see they are pricked with a pin In a small
triangle, that is the envelope B. and also material 0
•We took this course to.prove this letter that Chuck
Mung was trying /bo .deliver was to the applicant, and
he accepted it and had it on his person and that was
the way we took to prove it*   m 1
tt* Mr* Grant: You say, the applicant saw you when he came to
tho door*
A* Yes, he saw me. ^
tt. Had Mir* Lew access to the inside
*   .   *
A* Ho I was with him all the time except when lew he went
to the door and called the Cock to call the name that
letter was addressed to
In. Did Lew go any further than the door
A* Hof he stood in the door and I was here
tt. You could see him all the time*
A* Yes* it
tt* Mr* Griffin, when you say you intercepted the letter ■
j_ 5
A
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Mun to this man
who intercepted tho letter
A* Mr* Lew saw him and brought the man to me with the letter
tt* You know nothing of what was done except taking the lette
Mr
A* Ho, anymore' than
Mr. Parris: Let him explain just what he does mean
Mr* Poster:
orning
and
were down at the wharf, Lew said he was going
4
on board as he expected there would be something doing this morning, and we went on
board the vessel and he came to this end
Mr. Griffin: Leaving Lew out, tell us what you did, I
would like to know what you saw,
I went on board the vessel and as I went on board Lew
told me there is a letter in the Purser's room,
Mr. Griffin: Do not tell what he said.
A. Mr. Poster: He said there was a letter in the Purser's
fcoom and it was right on the desk*
tt* And so the letter you saw was the letter lying on the desk
A. This is another letter, the Purser was not In and so I
refused to take it, I stood around until Lew called me
to come towards where he was and he came to me with a
man
had a parcel in his hand and he says"give it to this
man
Tf
tt. Who said that.
A. Lew said to the member of the crew
tt. To do what
A. To give the parcel to me, and I to)
small parcel of tea and there was j
and
hibit B.   .*       I
tt. You do not know khw it was signed by or who it was from tfim
W      a
*
ft
~ ■ 101-
yourself*
A. Hotjat that time, no
tt. Vor  since of your own'knowledge, you havetno personal
knowledge who it came from i   w >
A* I was told
*
tt* You do not know from your
knowl
A* I know It was brought it c me by a member Of the crew
|Q. And you took it from him*
A* Yes, and I have had it ever since*
tt* Where Is the letter now. %
A. I have it* j
Q* With you
A* Yes, on my person
tt* I think we had better'see the letter and
i if it la going to be material I think wo aught to see it
Mr* Parris: I do not think we will produce the letter now
Mr* Griff in: If itfis-.refused now It will not be allowed
j t to go in later I will press that to the
Comptroller*
tt. When you came here in the morning with that letter you
came to trap this man you had the cook call out his
name
A* Yes* . ■  . .      tf f **
tt. And can you tell.what he called out, you cannot talk In
Chinese. ■••■■•
A* When this man came and saw me in the door, he said "Ho"
and went back
tt* You hoard the cook call cut in Chinese*
A* I heard the cook say something
tt* And did you hear the man speak to the cook
A* HO*  ; 1     ■ i y
tt* Did he epeak*
A* X cannot say rf
Off a
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A. Ho
tt* And you are prepared to; say the man went back because
he saw you, and the man says he went baok as the cook
told him it was not for him* Ho says the cook read the
letter to him.
A. The cook did not have the letter to read* We showed the
and
cook the name and asked him to oall out the name,/^^
tt./you heard him say that when he came in and the cook read
the name, he said that is not for me.
A. I did not,I said that when he saw me he went back.
tt. You do not know how the piece of paper got in the man's
pocket at all.
A* X can surmise. t
tt. Did you ask him
A* It was not necessary *
*
tt. Did you do it with the interpretor, did you ask him
where he got it*
A* I was satisfied that I knew where he got thorn
tt. You could have asked him with Lew's help right then and
there*
A* I did not consider it necessary when £ found #him with
him
think
Where ho got thorn*
L Hr, Farris: When Chuck Mun, we will call him Chuck Mun,
when tho man who Is supposed to have the
letter was on the wharf hefore Mr* Lew
brought the member of ithe crew up |with the
intter. did! Mr* Low point that man out to
you?
Mr* Griffin: I object. What could thle
two officers have to do w
between
man rr
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Mr* Parris: Mr. Griffin's ruggestion is that Mr* Lew
e
oonoooted the scheme*
Mr. Griffin: Ho It is a case off giving a conversation
between two men not in the presence of
the man
Mr. Parris: The facts are these that Mr. Lew pointed
*
out this man and they both ran to intercept him and. get the letter and\ one took
ono course and the other took another, and
Mr. Lew happened to get *there first,|
wantei Mr. Poster to show what they did
Mr. Poster: Mr. Lew was aboard before me, he was aft
he pointed to the forward part of the vessel
he pointed to me but I did not understand
what it was, the letter was passed on the
I could get to him, he came to
boat befo
me and brought this man to me with the
letter and-1 took it from him when he passed
e
it to me it was a-small package of tea and
fa letter.    *
Mr. Lew: On the morning of the T6th, September,^I had
*
instructions to report at duty a little early
th
r this man, Chuok Mun, he had been around
wharf quite frequently and I told Mr*
Poster that there might be something doing on
board the vessel, and Mr* Foster and I Walked
over to the boat and I was just above the bridge
this Chuck Mun come along but ho did not see  ]
me
Mr. Worsnop: What Vessel was this.
A* The Empress of China, just about that time Chuck Man
passed the first Gang way. I shouted to Mr* Poster fr*
the bridge, nGrab)f that package*. Chuck Man was wall I
IX
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pretty fast, Mr* Foster took tho wrong passage and
so I rushed down from the bridge and got there Just
Mun
to a
"Wh
are you going to do with that package?"
Mr. Griffin: You are not going to suggest that yon are
m going to have what the crew said to Mr.
Lew*
Mr. Parris: This may not be legal evidence but at the
same time in an investigation of this kind
Mr. Comptroller, we should have all the oir«*
cumcrnances thoroughly investigated
Mr. Griffin: How can the fact of a conversation [with lew
and a member of\ the crew or between two
members of the crew*
Mr .^ Worsnop $ This is connecting the
story I wiH allow 11»
A A lih'. I Lew:
The crew answered this is for ttuan and I
cannot catch the name In full as X have been
running down all|the way and my breath wa
a little out,I you can have it if you want
it, I refused it and^took the crew to the
purser's office and I expeoted I would have
an opportunity?to hand it over to the pure
as I did not want to touoh the parcel, X
was unable to?get the purser'and rushed
through and got Mr, Poster, Crew Ho* 106
handed package to Mr, Poster and Mr. Poster
took th© letter out and returned back the
package of tea to the crew,
tt* Mr. Parris: That Is the envelope th t is now marked
Exhibit E. |
A* Yes,
Mr* Poster initialed it|in|my V-
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Morning Session Monday Oct* 3rd,
Mr* Worsnop: Which one do you want.
Mr. Parris/ That last one, wo want to put that letter in
this morning although we may not need hia
here for that,
Mr* Worsnop: There are some beys here some children and
Wo would like to take them up this after-
noon and If it will make no difference to
you, counsel*
Counsel: Will make no difference
Mr. Worsnop: Mr* Pouter, you will be here*
Mr. Poster: X do not know that it lo necessary just those
children it Is just the regular: routino work
Mr. Worsnop: I would like you to be around
Wen Ohin recalled:
Mr. Parris: We want to produce that letter this morning
and havo it translated
Mr. Griffin: Which letter is that
Mr* Parris: Tho lottor that waa handed on to the ship
Mr. Griffin: The one that did not reach this man at all
Mr. Parris: Yes*
Mr* Griffin: It neTer reached thia man and you havo not
proved who wrote it
Mr• Parriat We have proved who sent it
t
Mr* Griffin: Whero*
Mr. Parris: Low says Chuok Mun, it was addressed tothle
man
Mr* Griffin: The man'n name 1b Wong and it ie addressed
to ttuan, and he saye it ia not for hia
Mr* Parris: We sent him a decoy letter to prov
Mr* Griffins Assuming if or the moment It ia kis
If ho did net get it it could not
but "
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effect thia case, we will assume the contents it con-
tains the most damaging statements it could possibly
contain if he reoeived it, but how could a letter written
by another man which he did not receive effect him, we
would all bo liable to be hanged or liable for anything
else if people could produce in evidence letter that you
did not receive* The Comptroller has said he does not
feel bound by the strict rules of evidonco o
■*> a
ross-
examination, but I do not feel he should allow in evidence a letter**
iBx*  Worsnop: How will it prejudice his case, simply a
translation of the letter because he-has
already -stated two or three tines that the
letter never reached his hands, in fact
we know it did not reach him*
Mr* Griffin: The question should bo put to Mr* Parris on
what grounds can It be received in evidence
I could answer the question but am I bound
to do so, in other words, the onus*is on
the person desiring to use that letter te
show why that letter should be produced, but
man
know
anything about it or what it contains
"ha main noint I take ia this, we are :
vo8tigating?everything that? is going on and
this is one of the things pertinent to what
is going on*
Mr. Worsnop: I think "Mr. Parris is right in an enquiry of
this kind, pre |cannot conduct it along the
lines governing ordinary tribunals, this is
really &n enquiry to try and gat at the
:a     very serious
bottom of certain/matters {!:     1
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and I think it would be doing wrong to shut off anything
0
that tends.to get at the bottom* I do not think it will
e
prejudice your client*
Mr
marked "Exhibit
E* that was referred to on Saturday, and I
will ask to have it marked as "Exhibit P*
will you translate! it Mr* Lew*
Mr
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Lew: Mr* Cumyow will you check me up please*
"Received tetter, says brought along draft $1200
e^_:_ .&JX
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gold for expenses and looking for business, this
*'
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draft is drawn on what firm, or payable to whom
let me know so I arrange, it is rumored you have
stated the amount of passage money how did you
come to leak that out* Answer if you are examined
why you wrote letter to Ting Sam to look after
doesn't thijj show some secrecy? You must answer
say I^dojaot know who is Ting Sam, .but*this man
w.  *miu"» "*  what   4 Jm^1    w^'' * h
|^^rueto_l_jne and/to write in* order//
to bo landedleo^I wrote as he Instructed* Must  I
(Litt
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SWwhm
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remember."
Mr* Lew: That letter wa9 initialed by Mr. Poster*
Mr* Worsnop: Who is that letter purported to be from,
it" signed by anyone*     S
A* Ho, it is not signed by anyone*
Mr* Parris It to uld seem to be handed by Chuok
ft*
this
man's cousin to crew Ho* 106 in a package
of tea*» I would suggest that Jthe Inference
from this letter ia that there was another
letter more successful, according to this man's
evidence*
Mr. Griffin: That was what Mr* Poster wery frankly stated
was an assumption*
Mr. Parris: A yery fair assumption V
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Mr* Griffin: The more you question Jrhe nore evidence
yon get* { III flH
Mr* Grant: The nore testimony perhaps*
Mr* Farri
I might
was! trans
i   lated in the presence of Mr* foster, Mr*
Grant and myself some days ago. Thle letter
was not prepared to meet the evidence given
by this man* Xt waa translated some days
before this man gave his evidence on
Saturday
Mr. Griffin: That would not prove when it was prepared
Mr. Parris: It proves that if this letter was concocted
it was concocted before the man gave his
evidence.
Mr. Griffin: It would be just as useful for the purpose you are now using it for, if it
were prepared any day this week or last
week or the week
K
fore.
Mr. Parris: Ask him if he remembers what was In the
letter he wrote to Chuok Man at the same
I time he wrote to Ting Sam*
Mr. Griffih: There is no evidence he ever wrote to
Chuok Mun
Mr. Grant: He has already said he did.
Mr. Lew: The witness asks the question when
Mr. Parris: On the boat the time he gave you the letter
to Ting Sam*
A* Yes theye were two one for Chuck Mun
Mr. Parris: Here is a translation in these minutes of
the proceedings which you mlgh aak him if
this is approximately a correct transaltion
of that letter * Chuck Mun Greetings ©I
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I     I came on the Empiess of China safely
arrived. What I requested fan  to do before
e
please attend to It Immediately. I saw one
Lew he said he did not receive any secrets
or any inside words from Ting Sam, so that
is why I again send you this note so you
would attend to it immediately and oblige.
My certificate or passport nemed appearing
is Wong Chin. Please note and have it arranged so I will be landed. Dated the present
Chinese year, the 8th moon the 15th day.
(17th September) Signed Hook Hun.
A* That is about the substance.
Mr* Parris: What does he say to that Mr* Lew.
A. He answers that is about right
tt. Tell him that the latter letter which we produced here
this morning "Exhibit P" contained in envelope Exhibit
E was intercepted by you from Chuck Mun and! this letter
wrote thesellettersiunder
your direction
Mr. Griffin: Is that a question I  SI  II I  1 M
Mr. Parris: Yes.
Mr* Griffin: With a view to what      ■'
Mr* Parris: To a question that I am going to ask
Mr. Lew: Your question was.*        < j
Mr. Parris: This letter "P" was contained in envelope "E
and was intercepted by you while being passed
by Chuck Mun to a member of the crew and tell
him the contents of that letter are regarding
I   to the directions to give with reference to
H  lyourself. |    liiiia L  IA   J.X I IH
A* This letter is not for me.
arrang V*J
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Mun ft. ao for hia.
Mr. Griffin; ask him if he has arranged for
• •ft
hing
Mr. Grant:
Mr. Low:
He has already stated he had, that he
•with Chuck Mun to get his ticket that he
gave his money to him to get his ticketa
The question is what was it he asked Chuck
Mun to arrange for him when he was In China
angod
A* Mr. Parris: Yes
A. Mr. Lew:
It was referring to the $200 I gave him to
reserve intermediate passage
tt* Was that all he arranged*
A* Yes*
tt* Was that all he was to do
A* It was all
t
tt* Ws he to do something at this end
60
Aa I spoke to him this way when I gave him that §200 for
him to reserve passage for me* I said like this when
ountry and
and
am a stranger
and probably things I do not know I just want you to
direct me* It was referring to business things I do not
know in commercial dealings for him to direct me.
What help was Chuck Mun to give him before he landed
A. Ho
tt. He says in this letter to Chuck Mun, you have just .trana-
rranged
an
landed
What did he expect Chuck Mun to do when he wro
letter*
What I meant was when I landed I would be a stranger.
Mr. Cunyow: Being a stranger?
Mr. Lew: Yes being a stranger in the country^ you wait fori
me and anything I do not know you show ae. \v«*
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tt*l
What I reciuested vnulto do nlease attend to it Immod-
and
receive any.secret- or inside|wcrds from Ting Sam so
that Is why I again send you this note,  so you would
imraediat
Tell him that does not
and
refer to. II I        III
A* What he says le this because you told mo I would havo te
Write to Ting Sam and I do not know the man Ting Sam so
I write this note to tell him and to say that yea did not
r receive "any word from Ting Sam   til
tt* What word did he expect from Ting Sazp,    f
A* What I got your meaning was that all merchants from thj
other side coming here they would have to let Ting Sam
know and then you said you did not receive any word
wrtt
latter
Mr* Parris: Tell him he must not hedge like that
Mr*IGriffin:£ Oh no*
i?
Mr* Parris: Tell him what I requested you to do before
please attend to it immediately"
What was it he wanted him to do Immediately
and requested him before to do.
A* I did give him words before. I did request him this
before that I say when he gets over there I would have
to have the Doctor's inspection with the eyes and I told
him when I get over there and the Doctor's inspection
if it requires a Doctor or anything iff that sort I would
net know what the customs were over here and for him te
, look after and engage a Dr. If necessary*
Mr. Parris: And do anything else necessary to get him
through the customs is that what he means r
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A* Ho such intention ae that*
tt* What did he mean by secret words
A* Whet I moan Is that He may ncl
*
He e ay a I would have to |_  |
meaning was because you have said that Ting S
not give* you any word* Have not told yon
tt* Why did he aak you If ling Sam
A* Because you askcl im  If X knew Ting San end I told you
I did not
*«»
m him and you eald you would havo to write
A to him* That la why I como to write to him
tt* Where did you first hear if thia |        	
A* Only whon*he readied tho boat at Victoria*
tt* Who did you hear it from in Victoria*
A* I heard thatjwhon you were checking off the certificates
Mr
*■♦. t*
*
ornno
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tt* What does he no an by that from wliom did ho hoar it*
A* I heard that In your statement when you eald Ting Sam is
not heae* Ting San has gono to London and I como from
him* That le tho time I heard it*
Ask him |if Chuck &un? over mentioned
Ting £am tc him*
A*^ While he was in China ho did not mention that m,
Sam.    t
*« After he arrived hero did he*
* Mr* Lew: Are you still en Chuck mm
At Mr* Tor nop: Yeo*
A* Applicant: After X como hero I ^nevor seen Chuck Mun
could that
ntl one d
Mr* Worsnop: Has anybody got hold of thia men Chuck . un
at all is ho available
Mr* Parris: If we had him horo he would probably lie like
4 thia mane e t      t
Mr* War* nop: Out off a let of lies we night possibly |
little truth I
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MR* yoSTERr   Those letters prove very conclusively [that* ••
MR* LEW
know hie name and address If you require him
tt
wr
MR. WORSHOP. Hot at this stage perhaps*
tt MR. GRIFFIH: Ask him *ho told him to
letters to Chuck Man and Ting San.
f MR. GRAHT: My learned friend has his own
There Is no evidence any
ttl MR
any one tell him
Mun and Ting Sam
A,  Y*u told me tofwrite*
tt*  MH*|ORAHT:   fDid ho get those olothes to come to
Canada in*
A nit put those on when*! was in Canton City*
Canton City
A Xn winter or rainy weather*
Q How long ago did you get that coat*
A Last year*  &   *,
tt What does he mean, how long ago.
A The beginning of last|year.
tt   That    is a year and a half»ago*
A    Ye».
tt Did you wear it last winter**;
A Once in a while*
tt    Ask him why it is in his picture jthat looks like a
■
new coat, absolutely new coat.
MR. GRIPPIH: It|does not*        %        ~
MR*t GRANT: f Yes it does.gg.j-
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tt MR* GRAHT:
matt
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him
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his photograph taken*
A When X come here I knew I Waa going te adopt the
1 ioustoms iof this country andL_put_on thia ooat to have (y v XWv  4»L    • ■   --a    \,
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to have ny photograph taken*
And
was a new ooat* he
have hie photo
graph taken
some time bo
had
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photograph
taken with It
MAH EEE WOO Appllcoant
tt. Mr. Worsnop: What Is hie name
A. Mak Wai
tt. How old is he
A. 31
tt. Xs he married
A* Yes
tt.What is his wife's name
A* Shu Chee:
tt* How many children
A* 1 bey and 1 girl
tt* Name and age of each
A* Chu Yuon 6, and Luen Ping %
tt* Whore 1b hie family living
A. San Chuon in the district ef 81n Hing
tt* Does his Wife live there too
A* My wife and family live there
tt* What is his business or calling
A* Importing rice froa Hong Kong
q# Where is his last place of business
A* In tuu look El, in the district of Sin Hing
tt* What is the n
of the town
A* Tuu Pook, Sin ling
tt* Does ho intend starting business in Canada
04. Yes.
tt. What
A. Do $ot know have to Investigate what la suitable u
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Q. Eae h* any partnaro in basinea
m
A. X have
tt* How many
A* 3 Including myself
tt. What is the firm's name and address
A* ttuang Loo, Wong
busl
A* 3 of us each put in $5000 Mexican a'total of §16000
original capital
tt. Why ia he coming to Canada
A. I heard in Canada business was very prosperous so I
come over to look for a business
tt. Prom whom did he purchase his ticket
A. I bought it from Chung Hing Co., Hong Kong
tt. How much did he pajr
age ticket
tt. How did he happen to talk in pounds
A. He says £17 gold
tt. Were any conditions asked or any guarantee of landing
given
A. Ho
tt. Anything said about that at all
A. Ho
tt* What did this passport cost him
A* #92* Mexican
tt. Do you know anyone in Canada
A. Do not know
know anybody at all
A. Ho
tt. Did he write to anybody
A. Ho  .
tt. What place is he going to
A. Vancouver, I intended to come here but It may be good
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ln any town
tt. What kind.of business does he Intend to engage in
A. After a while if they permit me to land on this
certificate I will invistigate and look for whatever
business is suitable
tt* How mjteh noney has he got
A*
brought with me a $100 or so just expense. I
spent it all now
tt. He drafts or letters of credit
A. Ho
ttt How muoh cash has he got now
A. Ho cash, I have spent it all
ft. When he save he is an importer
he mean
Hong Kong
tt* Is ho going to tho United States
A* Ho,
that is all
ompany wi
A* I am'traveling alone
tt. Does he know any others on the boat
A. Do not know a single one
tt* Hover knew any of them in China at all
A. Ho
anada
At'jjHo   'i'
tt* How long does he intend to stay here
A* Cannot tell, until X engage in businese
tt* $Mr* Parris: How about a man who comes in without any
money* like this man
Mr* Worsnop: Xt has a bearing on the case, it le not
* laid down in the law*
Mr* Grant: Have you adopted any amount
Mr« Worsnop: no
ft. Mr a Grant: How did you get this passport «r>
el iff©
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- *%> .* * 117.
A*
1 ^quested  some gentleman in my village
Canton to .the Viceroy to get it for me
Cant
A* In the middle of the 5th month Chinese date
tt. Why did you not go yourself to Canton te the Viceroy
A. I do not know Canton City myself
tt. Is that the only reason yon did not go to the Viceroy
yourself
A* I did not go myself
tt. After you got the passport did you go to Canton,
A* I did not
tt* Have you been in Canton since the 4th month any
* time since
A* Ho I did not go to Canton City
tt. When you asked this friend or gentleman io get you the
passport what did you do, did you give him
A* Yes I gave him my name
tt* Did you give him anything else
your name
i t .1 .
my name
and gave him my photograph
tt* Where did you give him
A* In my home village
tt. Did you see that photograph put on there
A. Ho
tt* Have you ever seen passports issued by the Viceroy
before, that is just as they were issued by the Vice
A.
tt.
roy. J
MX*  Lew: I do not catch the questij
Mr* Grant: Ask him if he knows why
around here
t aa  not know anything about it.
heard that everything
Viceroy Issues ie enclosed in that black line, ask
him if he knows that i I
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A. Do not know, I do not understand
4. After he gave theso gentlemen hi. name and photog:
What else did he have to do to get this passport
A* That
I have to get up a petition
for me
tt. After you epoke to this gentleman about It did you see
|  anyone about this passport, any one at all until you
got it
A* Prom the time I requested him to get this certificate
for
until I got it X did not. see anyone
■
tt* Did you talksto anyone about it
A* Ho
tt* After you got the passport what did you do with it
A. After I got the 'certificate I came down to Hong Kong
and found out the date of the sailing and reserved my
*"
passage
tt* Did you do anything else with it
A. X did not do anything with it
tt* Hothlng at all
A. After the gentleman who I requested to get the oertifA
Cate for me he took;it to the; British Consul to have
it sealed and he rctumid it to me and X£went te Hoig
Kong to reserve passage that is all
tt* Where did you give it te him to give to the: Iritieh
Consul
A* As soon ai he get It before he came to me he rfcook it
and
brought it to ne
tt. So the first you saw it was when, it was just like it is
now
A* Yes
tt. Did you go to the British Consul yourself at any time
!
A* He l
tt. Mr* Worsnop: The seal on that photograph Is the if
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authentlcity of the holder
Mr. Griffin:
might
this extent that
document that came to him had
photograph on it when it came to him eo
as to prevent it being put on afterwards
Mr. Grant:It simply signifies that the British
*
Consul put his seal on the photograph
Mr* Parris: There is nothing to chow that the
photograph on it is the photograph that
was on when the viceroy, the Chinese
Viceroy oertified that the man was a
merchant. He certifies that the man
is a merchant but he should also certify
that the man who has that certificate is
the one who bears that name.
Mr. Grant:I think It wuuld be well to have a translation of that passport put on the notes
Mr. Lew: I understand that the passport has been
translated before
Mr. Worsnop: Ho to my icaowledge
*
Mr. Lew: I would tell you that anything I give you
now would be just the substance as I would
require more time to
lation of an official
careful trans
document*
Dr. Chang: Why not have it translated a little later
on
Mr* Grant
him that we have been instruct
that for his passport money, ticket and
fees for passing through the Customs here
paid altogether the sum of $1100 Mexican
ask him if that is the correct amount
Mr* Briffin: It is not a fair question, ask him if
he paid it «J. ii
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*i 120
Mr. Grant
Mr. Griff
Griffin: I venture to suggest that It is not
tho right question, if you change it to
you are informed,
Mr. Grant: All right
A. Applicant: Ho
tt* What fs the correct amftunt
A. All it cost was $98 for this passport, £17 for my
intermediate passage and $100 or so I brought along
for my expenses
tt* Ask him if he was not to pay something to get through
the Customs here.
A. Ho
a
tt* What was that $100 he had Mexican or Gold
Aa A little over £80 odd Mexican money I brought along
with me for expenses
tt. Did he have that when he came on board the boat at
Hong Kong.
A. Yes    ■ i ■
tt* How did you spend it 111 coming across
A. I bought some socks and I bought some trousers and
bought s omo clothes, and I went up Town in Port and
spent some for some eatables
tt. So he did not have this money when he went on board
the Empress
A. When I left Hong Kong on board the boat I had thai
muoh
a
tt. Does he mean to say he bought socks
eatables on board the boat
* i
A* When I got to Shanghai 1 bought some
tt. Did you get off the boat* at Shanghai
and
A* Yes
any money when you got on board the
boat at Shanghai w^-jiuaj^
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A. About |20 or #30 when X got on beard at Shanghai
tt* Hew are you going to live when yea get ashore Jhare
A*
aehoro here I would telegraph to my
on the American side and! then I would
have money over here
Dooo your father know you are coming
A*
my
think lie wHUmow
this time
tt* Why did. you not bring any money with you
A* My money at home is Invested all in the business and
I could not get ill right away f |  |    f j;
tt. Howfsoon could ywujgct it
A.
think
tt* How quickly could he get it if he telegraphed
A.
know
what it would take over here
tt. Where does his father liven on the American side
A* Philadelphia
tt* Did he write to you telling yon to oome
A. Know X came on my own account
tt. Do you expect to see your father at" all
A. Ho, lh±x different countries, I de not expect te see
him
namejin Philadelphi
A* Mak Yin Kun
e
tt. Ask him to write out his father's address in Phila
delphia tfust the way
father
Mr. Lew: Will you tran
hi
way
he addresses hie {father
A* Mr* Lew: Mak Yin Kun, Lee Yick Chung, Philadelphia
tt* Ask him if he dees not put English writing? on his
letter on the envelope         £
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tt*
: do not know English
hia"If thore waa no English aldre
i# I just sent ny letter to a Hong Kong fIra and they
would conduit for me
tt* Does ho know what street address hi* father lives
on
A, The name of the street I do not know
tt. Ask: him if he knows what his father does
A* Laundry in Philadelphia
$. This firm that he refers to in
■£..**
Phila
delphia is not my father's business only that the
mall is .in oaro of this firm
What Is the name of his father's firm the laud*iry
firm
A. I do not know
tt. If he does not know the street address of this firm
how does he expect to reach him by telegraph    x
A. I have got some namesakes in Toronto In business -
if I sent this name they would know where to send
it
s
tt* In Toronto you have some name sake s, some cousins
A. Yes some Couains in Toronto
tt. Are they blood cousins
A. Ho Blood relation
tx    tr„w inaiAT has he known these cousins were in Tor
Aa 7 or 8 years
tt. What his his name       ^
A* Mak Kin
tt* What does he do
A. Lauddry man
tt. Are all your cousins laundry men
A. Yes
know the Toronto address of these a
,a name and address the way yon writ
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• 123-
to them*
A* I do not kiow the number of the laundry but I send*
'mall to the firm by name* of Ying Chong Tie
tt* Write the name and address
A* Mak Ye Suen, Hing Chong Tie Toronto
I *
tt. Does he know that is the right address has he written
enough*letters to know that thoy reach him
A* Yes.
tt. How many letterB has he written
  *
A* 1 or 2 letters a year
tt. How does he know he got them does he answer
A* I only sent them I never got an answer
tt.^HowJlong has your father been In Philadelphia
A* 13 or 14 years
tt* What did your father do*before he went to Philadelt>hii
A. School teacher at homo
tt. Ask him If his father told him that business was good
in Canada
A. Ho
wrote and
in Canada
A. Ho
Where
When
you learn business was good in Canada
In business at home, firms that I have
business connection with and. my
that business is good in Canada
around
tt* What bueiness do ^you intend te go into in Canada
know
I have to come here and
town get^landed
is suitable
tt* How much money have you got to go in business in Candda
with rr
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*v 124-
brought along with
and
I could
Hong Kong and
your writing
tt. Would your partners send you money without
and telling them what it was for
A* I could write or I could telegraph back
tt* Do you not know it costs a lot of money to telegraph
to China!
A* I do not know
tt* Tell him it costs $1.12 Gold for every word including
his address and including his signature
A* I do not know
tt. Ask him how many words he thinks he would have to tele-
graph his partners to let them know he wanted money
A. I do not know, I j have not decided whether to write or
to wire and Iihave to find out from my friends how
r
to wire before I decide J
W#at
arae on the boat with me and
turned
country
know anyipeople who have been in the country
before*
A* 1 or |2
tt. Who are they
V
A* Lee Won Hon,
ft. Where does he live*
know
the interior some place
him
A* Ik do not know
know where any
A. Don't kndw , r
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tt.
find out where to inquire fro
him
A* When I-get to Toronto I will sea hia
tt. You aro going to Toronto are you
A* Yes
tt* HoV are you going to go there
A.
and
could write to Toronto and get money from my friends
You would write to Toronto, is that What he eald
A*
would pass
write to Toronto"
tt* Do you know anybody in Vancouver or around here that
could give you money to telegraph,
A* Hone, at all
«
tt. Tell him it costs §1*00 for 10 words Gold to telegraph to Toronto
A* I do not know
tt. Tell him it does cost that and ask him where he would
get the money to telegraph to Toronto
A* When there was a cousin or friend of mine returned
to China the other day and he gave me a few dollars
tt* Where is that money
Que Lee a firm in Vancouver
left $10 for me*
A* Do you know that firm Mr* Lew?
A. Mr. Lew: I know the name
q Aov Mm if he knows the addres
A. I do not know ^
ft* Do you know anyone connected with the firm
A* Ho
tt. How would they know you were the nan the #10 wae
left for lie
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My cousin say
them
it
have got a cousin In the shed
waiting fcr^examination at preeent* Eo haa no expenses
you give him $10 for expenses*
tt* When did; you last see your
A.
Empr
China
tt. What was hi s name
e
A. Mak Kee Woy. He might have given you another name when
he went out from here. See Yuen le his other
tt* Where did you see your cousin
A. He was on the wharf, I was still on the boat
tt* Is that the only time you saw him.
A* Yes
tt* Had you ever seen him bofore
name
When
I seen him
tt* How long ago
A. A little over 3 years
down
A.
down to the boat he was standing
wharf. I was still on board the boat
il. Did he not go down to the boat to see you
A. Ho
know
there
as down on the wharf standing there talking to me
many chinaman have you talked to since you came t
Vancouver
Almost, 10
tt. Has he talked to anyone outside the shed
A. I do not remember how many
tt. How many do you think?
* *Etn Just 1, just my brother who left fo;
tt
* What relation is he to you
A* Cousin fp
au
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tt* What kind of a cousin  IV}
A. Not blood relation
tt* What does he do
A. He has a laundry In Toronto
tt. Does he write letters to that cousin
A* Ho     I
tt. Ask him what other cousin would give him any money to
go to Toronto
A* This one I could send to him for transportation to
Toronto
tt* When you left China you expected your cousin to give yo
money to go to Toronto, and did not land here just on
*j
the chance without knowing that
A* That was my hope
tt. And hew soon did you expect .--to go to Torontp as]seon as
you got here
a.
As
am nermittod to lend
him at once and he will send me a transp
to Toronto immediately
e ^
A.
2oz=!"t 0
do
What were you going
Stayjc there awhile to look
Tall him that he just told
in Toronto
for business
and
go to join his father
A. I did not say so
tt. Tell him that he said that he would telegraph his
father
for money
Mr. Cfr&fl
Mr.  Grant:
I think he said he could telegraph
Mr.  Johnson will you turn up the notee
Mr. Johns
The
Mr
antt Tell him he first told us he was going to
telegraph to his father on the American side
and he now tells us he was going to telegraph
to his cousin in Toronto, ask him why. *      ' X
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A
X .aid I woald telegraph to my oonain*iJir Toxanto.
X do not know my father's address in Philadelphia^ haw
could I telegraph to him.
j Tell him in*the presence of the Chinese Consul, lMr. \
Cumyow and yourself he stated *that he weald telegraph
*
to his father in Philadelphia
A    I said my mail could; go to my fatherf,  I dldfnot*say
Q
telegraph
What I did'say was I said I could writ
this cousin in* Toronto and they ceuld send te my father
in Philadelphia*
■
tt Ask him If that is the best explanation he has got.
A That la my explanation now.  X do not knew my\ father's
address.
tt |Dc you know your cousin's address In Toronto.
A I do not know.
tt Then how could y$u telegraph to'your oousin If you oould
not telegraph your father.
A I have got an address, ,a business card in English*
tt Where is it.
A In my trunk.
tt MR. WOBSNOP: *Let him go and get it*
A
MR*
nSwW
T:    Mr. Lew I think you had abetter go with him
and get it*
MR. WORSHOP:    Mr* CUzayow
think
tt MR. ORAHT: Has; he got that?oar&.
ays
He has one but this Is not the one
tt Let us see' the one he hasfgot.
Ask him Who ggve hi321 that* 1
A Wis is two'or three years ago I got it in Hong Keng
plaining
so
tt
know
any quicker than *
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er£ XI 129
A
Chong
Toronto would he enough
4 So he really intend*dj to go to Toronto
A Yob.
$ Aak him why he told the Comptroller that the place
ho was going to In Canada was Tanaoater.
A I did n,t say I oome to Tanconver.
e
tt Tell him he said in front of the Chinese Consul,
Mr* Cumyow
In answer to what plaoe he
was^ going to In Canada, hi Said Vancouver, and ask
m
'   him Is that is true.
A 'Vancouver is Juat a name or l>laoe for the whole
Dominion.
tt Ask him if he knew what Vancouver is. ,
MR. GRANT: Mr* Johnson will you turn up the original
questionand answer*
Mr. Johnson: "What place is^ho going to in Canada?
A* Vancouver, I intend to come here but It may be
*
good in any town."
A APPLICANT: Yes I said that*
tt Ask him why he did not say Toronto, but it may be good
in any town.
A I said Toronto later on.
tt Ask him If he does not think it a little bit peculiar
when his business in China is worth §15#000*
bring any money with him
Toronto
hurry at pre
a ^
tt Aak him if he le
A Yes.
Q When did you Hr
A Ifcen I had the i
the fi£th month.
tt He get that pass
hurry
Canada Wm
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A Yes*
tt Ana he knew before he get that pasa port that he
coming to Canada*
A Yes I knew*
tt And do you mean to tell us, your business waa such
you, could not got enough money to come fron Vancouver
to Toronto, out of your business*
A My business Is In such condition I oan not get the
money just right at the time and I canchore to telegrap
to my cousin in Toronto and if I found a good business
I would cable back to Hong Kong for money*
tt Tell him that he got this pass port according to the
date about the sixth moon the 16th day*
DR. CHANG: (The latter part of July)
|  MR* LEW: July 20th.
tt MR. GRANT: Ask him how long before he got that I
petit!
Viceroy
•
A Tho 16th day of the 5th month is the day of the petition!
but the date which appears on this certificate It le the
16th day of the 6th month but it was the Slst day when
it reached my hands
tt Tell him thon that he intended to come to Canada over £
months before the boat sailed froa Hong Kong
/• And ask him if in that time he could not of got any
money from his firm
A All my money was invested in buying up rice and wa could
not sell all of it and whatever outstanding accounts
cannot be collected
tt When he found that out did he write to hia cousin in
prepared to let hia have cone
money
A Yea I got a distant relative here working for the a .♦£
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ere as a co ok L the chances jare he^might have received
money
Q
wrote tojyour cousin in Toronto when voulfound
you oouxi not get any mo
ready to let you have it
A Yes I did write to them
tt What diV did he send thai
8
Hing
them to be ready to let him have the money?
When tho boat arrived in Vancouver I wrote
the boati    l i M
tt
Tell him his answer was hejwro
day^he wrote In China
ask him what
A X did Hot write $0 then in China, I did not write until
I got here
tt Who took that letter«off the boat to send to his codsin
AA It went in the mall box on board the; boat
tt Did many of the other chinamen: send letters jby that mall
ibgx
A**X do not know
tt Whol
f 4 cook
tant
as
A* Mak Kin  |    A i I # f f| '
tt. Where does he live  |; - t ■ ♦
A Vancouver ^      %
tt How long has he lived her* $,
A I do not know  *
tt Has he lived here a year or so   j
A Do not know I only hoard from a friend or cousin ef mine
that he was here
tt What friend told you that     $
i,who has gone to China, ho told me that .he left J
i*» fttJak Kin when I_ passed by the Customs _I
A The I one
and
f
tt How much „
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A He did not say how much, I;thixiJc ah out §60 .r #70
<Z Is that all the money he left for you hero
A Yes
Q That Is all the money he left for you here
A Tee
Q Tell him ho told us he loft some money with Quo Lee
Ask him why he tells us now ■ that Is all the money he
left
A
#
with another party he left for transportation expenses
tt Where can you find this cousin he left the .transportatio
money with
Oft
A He told me he works at the C.P.R. Hotel
tt So that all this story about telegraphing to Toronto for
money when it was here Is untrue, he did not Intend to
telegraph to Toronto, he intended to go to see his cousin
at the C.P.R. Hotel
A When I first came to reach here, I intended to telegraph
to Toronto*
Mr. Cumyow: It^ is write to Toronto
Mr* Lew: To; write to Toronto for my transportation until
I met this cousin, this friend and he told me
ho had fiieft thle money with this Mak Kin who
works for the C.P.R. Hotel
tt Ask him If his cousin who has gone to China knew he was
coming on the boat.   % j
A During this 6th month after I received this certificate I
wr
ote to him telling him a certain boat that I was coming
overt on
tt Will you tell him he told the Comptroller that he did not
know anyone in Canada and that he did not write and tell
anyone in Canada he was coming
A It does not require for me to say I know my oouain that does r
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tt
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not re euire for me to say 80
know anyone in Canada
qua iat anc
fri end s
that does not apply to cousins        %
Tell him that he knew this man in China, ho told us he
knew this man in China
Mr. Lewi Which one do you refer to
Mr* Grant: This one who has just gone on this return boat,
he told us he knew him in China
A Yes
tt Ask him why he did not know he was In Canada
A Suppose it Is my father, to you mean to say I do not know
him, I thought that did not apply to cousins, I must know
*
my cousin
tt Ask him why he told us he did not write any letters from
China to Canada telling his friends in Canada he was coming
Ask him why he told us that, when he had already written
to this cousin
A Cousins or relatives I always have correspondence but
*
friends I never  did have any correspondence
tt Ask him how long he expects to work in the laundry of
his cousin In* Toronto, before hevgoes Into business
Mr* Griffin: I submit that is the point that we have already had a ruling on*
Mr. Grant: We have had no ruling
Mr* Parris: That question would be perfectly proper even
g  in^the Gourt*
Mr* Griffin: I doubt very much if under cross-examination
through an interpretor you would be allowed
to put a question that might give him the
a
idea that he had said that if It was to the
witness himself in Gourt you might be
allowed when the whole purpose Is to trap d"C
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i. 134-
him to enveigle him Into saying something ...
Mri P&rris: To get him to tell the truth
Mr* Griffin:? Yes but you might get an answer that was not
same
treatment he would in a Court of Law
Mr* Grant % He is
Mr* Griffin: It is unfair to a man like this through an
Interpreter under a long Cross-examination
in Which he has been told hhings he said and
It is unfair.to create the inroression on his
mind that he made such a statement
Q. Mir. Grant: Ask hira how long he intended to work in a laundry^
*
before he goes into business
Mr* Worsnop: I see nonobjection to asking him the question
*'
Mr. Griffin: I object to the question anyway-
Mr. Worsnop! I allow the question
*
Mr. Grant: Ask him how long he intends to work in the laundry
before he goes In business
A* X Intend to go In business, I do not intend to work in the
*
lauddry
ft
tt* But while he is looking around for business does he not cx&
Ipect to work in the laundry,
Is not business, I would probably live In the hotel and
A That
look for some other business
tt Ask him how?brothers he has
A Two including myself
tt Where does his brother live
A
younger brother of* mine he is In school "in Sinking
City
/**\
How old is this youngor brother
A 15
tt Mr. Worsnop: Ask him
Emprees of China •   •
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135
under the name of Mak Kee Wai and he may be under
the name of Mak Sul Xin
tt Ask
A Mak
what his family name Is
Mr
rv
Is that the usual form of certifioate who have
been passed on other occasions, that is people
who are unquestionably merchants, is that the
form they have
Mr* Worsnopl It is not accepted as conclusive
tt 2Er. Griffin: You have seen them before
Mr* Worsnop: I have seen similar ones, I would not like to
tt Mr. Orant:
A Toronto
say they are; the same
Ask him where his cousin came from
tt Ask him If he knows what Mak Sue Yin does in Tronto
A Laundry man
ame down
Mr* Grant:
Tell him when Mak Sue Yin was going to China
on the Empress of China he gave the answer
that he was a laborer and ask him if that is
correct
A That is labor too, a laundry, he might have been a laborer
tt* How old is your cousin
A I do not remember      -^
tt Older or younger than you
A Older than I am 2 or 3 years
long
A# £ do not remember, a long time 8 or; 10 years, he says alto-
I gether he has returned to China including this last time
ind the last time waa thrae ye ar s.
tt Is that your cousin's picture* |
A Yes       t
tt Ask him if ho saw Lue Yu Gee before he left China
A HO   t **
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- 136-
Kr. Griffin: Ask him if ho ever knew any
0
whole life as Lue Yu Gee
A, X neyor heard of him
Mr. Grant: I do not think I need ask any more questions
It seems quite clear that this man is a laundry
man
Morning Session Tuesday Oct* 4th, 10 O'clock
Mr. Hugh Arthur employed by the Department on the instruction!
of Mr* O'Hara to be present as cheeking Interpreter as Mr*
e
Arthur has resided in China a number of years
Mr. Poster: Is not Mr. Arthur going to Interpret
Mr. Worsnop: Ho Mr. Lew will still continue as the official
Interpreter, Mr. Arthur is simply here to follow
the examination
CHUNG KWONG Applicant
tt. Mr. Wornsop: What is is name
A. CHUNG KWONG
tt. Any othername
.
A* Gin KwongT<
tt. How old is he
A. 26
Q. Married or single
A. Married
y  Is his wife llTiag
A. Living
q. What is his wife * s n*a*
A. Chin Bhee
Q.' How many children has he
A. Ono daughter
Q. What Is her ***•
A. Yu* Shiun
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tt* How old is she
A* Born in last December , 10 months
Q. Where is his family living
A* Tai Shoe Wo
0
tt. What district
A* Sin Hing
tt* What is his business or calling
A* Linen and coarse cloth
tt* What is his last place of residence
A* Kong Moon City
tt. Where is that }
A* That; is Sam Wei
tt. Does he Intend
tarting
A. Yes
tt * What
A. X come here locking for business
tt. Has he any partnors
A. Vee 3 partners including myself
tt. What are their names
A.
Q.
Tong
Wing
name
A. Tat lung
tt. What is tho address.
A. Kong MOOH
tt. How much money is invested in tho business
A. $20,000 original capital
»
*
A.
How much has *aoh partnar got §
«J other two partnors each have #6000 and I have #8000
Q. Why Is he ooalng to Canada
A.
tt.
A.
I come here to look for business
from whoa did he purchase his ticket
Chong King
tt. Where is that AKWlf
at
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•*" 138-
A* Hong Kong*
tt* How much did he pay
A* #85 Gold
any conditions asked or any guarantee of landing
given
A. Ho
tt* Ask him Ifi that is his passport
A. Yes
and marked exhibit
tt* How much did that passport cost him
A. #90. I got that in Canton City
tt* Gold or Mexican
A. Mexican
tt* Does he know anyone in Canada
A. Ho      ]'
tt. I; there anybody who can identify him
A. Ho
tt. Did he write and tell anyone that he was coming
A. He, I have no fttands over here
tt. To what place is he going in Canada
a
A. I come to Vancouver
tt. What business does he intend engaging in
A. I will see what is suitable
tt. How much money has he
A. I brought along |l3. Sovereigns
tt. Anything else. .
A. Th t is all
going
A. Ho
tt. Is he
A. Alone
ompany with others
Q. Did he know any others in the party
A. Ho
tt. Did he not know any of them at all in China
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A. Ho
a. Md he know anybody who came over froa China on the aaa*
ehip with him.
A. Ho.
tt. Has he ever been in Can&dd before
A. Ho         I	
ia I
tt* How long does he Intend to stay hero	
A. Uncertain
tt* Mr. Parris: Ask him what clothes he broughtv/wlth hin
A. Hot much
tt* Ask him to tell us what the v/hite inside clothes were
You inspected thorn last night
Mr. Worsnop: Mr. Parris: There is another question I would
like to ask. Does he know the City of Kong
Moon well.
A. Do not know it very well
tt. Does he know the names of the steamers very well
A. Ho
tt. Does he know any people there
A* Look after my own business, I do not take notice of other
people
tt. Does he know the names of the agents of Butterfield and
Squires in Kong Moon
A. Do not know
Mr
well known firm Mr. Arthur
Mr. Arthur: Yes
tt* Mr. Worsnop: He says he doea not know the agent
A. Do not know them **
tt
* Mr. Parris! How many of these white coats did he bring
A* ¥ or 8 or 9 I wore ihma of them already
tt. What other kind of coats did he bring
A. Ho other just some I have already worn, they are soiled
tt* Ask him if he brought any kind of coats excepting the v  >*i
*«*
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white ooats
A* One red jacket
tt* A suit of overalls.
A* There ie one pair of trousers made in foreign style
ed  *   '
that Is the European style,fI aak/him the class of
cloth and he does not understand)
^Mr* Parris: Have you any term to correspond with our
word overalls
Mr* Lew:
anvae and
I used and he did not understand
tt* Ask him what ho uses these white coats for
A. I wear them
tt* Ask him if those are not the coats that are worn by
Chine se cooks
A* No, X am wearing one here
tt. One of these white coats
A. Yes, here is one
-m
tt. This other suit this rough material, which I term overalls, ask him what ho uses that for
A* He says he has not got any, (he may not understand^ I asked
him if he has a pair of long trousers with that blue
black color and you cannot use the word overalls as there
Is no such word)
Mr. Parris: You describe them.
Dr. Chang: He says he has not any blue ones, he seizes
on that word blue.
Mr. Parris: Are they handy
Mr. Lew: They are in his trunk
Mr. Arthur
cannot explain overalls to a chinaman
Mr* Parris: Can we bring in the trunk
Mr. Worsnop: Certainly
Mr* Arthur: I asked him about blue cloth and
has no blue clothes
says he ~wm
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I
	
.-..- 2. 141
Mr* Lewi
n c
aro
He says you ask Mr. Cumyow to int|
10 O'olook last night these two j   	
and inspected all my baggage and I do not know
If he was instructed from the Customs or not
Mr* Lew: Ask him
trunks
■-
Mr* Parris: Mr. Arihu*, what does he wear those white
   J  coats for
Mr* Arthur: Just ordinary summer wear (Trunks brought in
and opened)
Mra Parris: Where are these overalls.
Mr* Arthur
tho 80
blue color
Mr. Parris: Wo will produce those no matter what color
they are and
A •
Lew will you ask him what
wears those for. the clothes are
of trousers Merchants wear
my store, when it gets cold I wear
time
tt. Does he know this is cold
4< * •• t
try climate in Canada
A** I use them on board the boat as the place la dirty and
so forth, I wear them around
Mr. Parris: Those have never  been worn
They hi
dirty
boat it le
giving a letter to Mr
A. Ho
Q*. Is his name Chuen Kwong
A. That is my other name
tt. Ask him if he told you that
A. Gin Kwong is ny ful1 name v
was
name
A* Yes
ame of "Gin Lung Tong ft li
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a J 142
Mr
namee this morning, you oan hardly
translate that to him ae they may
together exact* r
ho is Pong tin Show, that is *he
name referr
to in the letter as guaranteeing the passage
A, Do not know
tt* Where ^.d ho got this certificate
A* Canton City
tt* Prom whom
A. The Viceroy
tt* Did you go to the Ylceroy personally
A.
entleman by name of Shue Tong
tt* Did he see the Viceroy himself
A* Did not see him
tt. Who did he see
A* That was passed in by this gentleman named Shue Tong
I did not see the Viceroy
tt* He did not go to Canton himself personally
A* I went to Canton city to the Viceroy
tt. How many times did he go to Canton City
A This is the only trip
tt* And he got the certificate on that trip
At My return trip to get the certificate that was twice
tt* How long between these two trips
A* I petitioned for this pass port on the 23rd day of the
5th month• It was granted and I'received it on the 26th
day of the 6th month
Cant
brought
to him i
A* I want to get it myself*
*»*;•..■•
tt* Oo to the Viceroy18 office
Aa Yes
time
A* Did not see him tt
0
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X     *.*.
a *
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0*
*.
*#
an 143-
tt. Who handed him the oertlfioate
A. A commissioner of the Customs offide
tt* Is he connected with the Viceroy1s' office
A* Yes
tt. When did you have your photograph taken
Aa That photograph was taken about the 18th day of the 6th
month
a .
tt* What did her do with tho photograph after he had it taken
handed
tt* To whom
A.-To the Viceroy's office*
tt* By the friend that was with him
A.*He handed it in
Who
did he
A. I want there myself
tt* Who bought his ticket for him
A. I paid r*the money to a friend of mine and he got it for
me
4. Who was the Attend
A. Sing Chin Gin
tt. Was that in Hong Kong
A* In Hong Kong T
tt. Why did he not bring more  money with him
ft
A. I have got enough to spend after I get landed and if there
is any business suitable I will cable back to my partners
to get more money hero'fir bufcineis ,
Mr. Worsnop: Is that the correct translation of the word
^Gable" would he understand that
Dr* Chang: Yes
Mr. Lew: I think everything is telegraph with them, we use
gust the one word
tt* Mr. Parris: Who advised hlj
ft' *
A* I came of my own accord
tt. What made him want to come
Canada r.
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I IA 144-
A* My partner 8uggested that he cone here
tt* jWbnt did■>*his partnore know about it
A* I don't know
tt* Did his partners give him any reason why he should cone
A* He sent me over here to lnveetigatc and look for business
tt* How old are his partners
A* 40 odd f
tt* How^long have they been In business
A* The present partnership 4 or 6
tt* Were they in tho business before he went in     I
A* All the same time
tt* What did they do before that
Aa Always in business before
tt* What did he do before this partnership was formed
A* Studied at sohool
tt* How did he make this $8000 he got to put in the firm
A. Left by my father
tt. Ask him if ho signed this passport
Mr* Lew: I asked him If he wrote his name on the cert
cate.
Mr. Parris: What did he say
A. I have
i
tt* Where
A. Wrote inside here
Mr, Griffin: Behind the photograph Is that the point
A. He wrote on the photograph
A* Mr. Parris: When did ho write this on the photograph
photograph was taken
Then he did not writ
the photograph
was only on
A. I only wrote on the photograph
tt. When he got the certificate back waa the photograph pasted
on
on
Ived it -
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e*£ 148-
000 is not a large sua te be inveeted
form
A* Yes
tt* It is a large sum
A. Yes
tt* What la hie sharo of tho profits, of that business, does
he get tone third or more
» E tual dividend out of my capital shares proportionate
Did his partners not tell him anybody here he could
consult regarding looking for business over here
A. No
Hong Kong if there was anybody over
he which ho could consult
A* Ho
any idea as to what business he wae going
over here
Have not  j
Sa|
and see what is sultab
tt. How long does he expect It will take him to look for
business
A. That is uncertain
know It is very expensive
from
China
know
tt* How long before he expects to have hie money here
| a After I look for business anything that is suitable
and ask my partners
afraid
time «  * _
A* If X were not detained I would be landed up in town and
if I ran short of money I would cable back and ask ay
partners for money
a    i annuose he ran short of money* Shore arc people here r
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-0 146
he could borrow from
A* The
know
ould
borrow any
tt* You might''translate thie letter to him Mr* Lev, It ia a
letter that was translated on the last examination,the
English of it: "They are three men9  throe brothers one
called Lun Mo one Lun Be and one Lun Chan, brothers
t  respectively greeting, your brother arrived in town but
on examination of eyes, refused. They have kept or retained my steamship ticket but do not know the result so
send this letter specially to beg you personally impor
tant
your brother or your humbl
Hong Kong in a fPerson) named Bong Kin ChowT s place
guaranteed passage to come this ship, having 12 or 11
other passengers coming from his place. I received from
Pone: 30 small erold nieces, bad erne when landed to hand to
an interpreter for his use. Pong has a letter for eaoh
individual to bring along to be handed to Yip Ting Sam
know whether Yip Ting Sam
Upon recelv
ing this letter look aftor this first of all or the most
important. If statement is bad, the man who guaranteed
passage will pay poll tax or taxes to be landed. My
statement may be bad you must first of all or most important you must ask Yip Gow first to guarantee my tax
so
land in town, so as to avoid the limit
ax
number being
Merchant
money #1100. Upon reoeiveing this letter you know Wah
Yuen got from me on board a small gold coin (£5*00) you
get this back from him. Bin Tong and Wing Kie both brought
long with them two bolts of silk
the
16th day, signed Chuen Kwong. Chinese Block Stamp over the
Signature Yin Lung Tong11* ; #*
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Mr. Parris: Translate that sentence by sentence eo we
can fellow it*
Mr. Low: All right
Mr* Parris: You have translated all that to him
Mr. Lew: Yes
that
A. I do not know
tt* Ask him, tell
that letter*
him I want to know if you told him to write
Al I do not know. I do not know you,
tt* How did you come to write that letter
A I did not write the letter
tt. What was in the letter that you did write
Mr* Griffin: That is open to the same point , it should
not be put to the witness till you proved
he wrote a letter
Mra Parris: If you were in Court
make
an objection*
Mr. Griffin: Surely you should be bound by some proceedure
To put to the witness through an Interpreter
that he wrote a letter
when it has not
been proved that he wrote one It Is most
confusing
Mr* Parris: He aught to be oonfused, it
reason of cress-examination
ultimate
Mr. Griffin: }Ve have no evidence at all that the man wrote
the letter
a
Mr* Poster: I do not think}Mr
any
man
Mr
Lew and myself will swear to it*
Mr* Griffin: I do not thin that Mr
can help us any
How oan he know the man has written the letter m __ej
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The first day the Comptroller said it was net
the right question Is it gave the witness the
impression that he had written the letter.
Mr. Parris: I have no recollection that*tho Comptroller
said so
Mr. Worsnop: There*has been so much taking placed would
^not^like to say positively I did not but I do
not think I said that*
Mr* Grant:The point the first day was regarding aletter
Mr. Parris said I say you wrote this letter and
the only change' that was made that Mr* Parris
said I am Informed a
Mr. GriffinL X have no objection to that now
Mr. Parris: This thing will go on indefinitely
Mr. Worsnop: Ask him*if he wrote the 'letter
Mr. Parris: I do not mind saying I am trying to traok him
into admission if he is truthful I cannot
succeed in dolngthst if he is untruthful I
may
ft.
r Mr. Griffin: It is not a case if intentional trapping,1
is a case of accidental trapping I am afraid
■ - ' ■ - • of?
Mr. Grant: We have checking interpreters,
Mr Parris: The whole object of cross-examination is to
put questions that are a little confusing and
when we are interrupted at that point every
time.
Mr
Griffiu: It is confusing to a man no matter how honest
he is* Time after time I have seen men in
Court get slipped up...
farri
Mr. Worsnop: Ask the question Mr. |
l*Mr. Parris: What was in the letter he did wr
I t «fiver wrote any letter * ■
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. 149*
dm What was in tha letter h. gar*
A^ I_never handed yog any letter
ft. Did ho
A. Ho,  I I
anybody else'hand
all otter
know
ft. Was he sea-aiok in
ort
A. I wae .till siok after the boat land*d in Port   1
ft. When waa the first time ho .aa yon
A* At^ the tine "the Dr. inspected the *yo*
ft* Where was he when tho hont was coaing froa fiotoria
here       7 fl
A.
know
board the
boat I
tt. Where was he
A. I was in my stateroom lying down in my bunk
Mr* Parris: I do not hink Mr
>mptroiler you are
fled he Is a merchant
Mr* Worsnop: Just one more question Mr. Arthur wishes to
ask.
Mr* Arthur: Ask him if he has anyone of the same family
name here, that is cousins or anybody
Mr* Lew: I asked him if he had any acquaint an
[    * friend any family cousin of any kind
any
any
name
sake, and he says *Ho
tt* Mr. Worsnop: What position In the business did this
occupy In China in hie firm in \_
I City
As Locking after the money end accounts, Cashier
Mr. Griffin: is* **» *»* wh0 lt ***
and looked
through his baggage Is t night
A. Mr. Lew and Mr. Poster
Mr* Griffin: ijwoaldxlil
informed undejefcat
authority that le done,le there anything in
!he Statute that authorises that. a
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Mr. Farria: They may hare been inspeoted for the Customs
e
Mr* Griffin: That would have been done long ago
Mr
No
are Jiot inspected until they leave
Mr* Griffin: I would like to know why it was done
Mr. Worsnop: There is a special officer sent out from
Ottawa by the Department of Trade and Oommeroe
ft
and our Instructions are to give him every
assistance that we possibly oan, that Is under
Ministers  J
/Department of Trade and
Commerce.
Charact
on the passport, ask him if ho knows who put
it there.
A. I wrote that myself
tt. And who wrote the Engllih character below
A. The Consul
And where did he wri
in whose
office
name and then came back to my
I
wrote that
Mr. Cumyow: He says he wrote It in the Consulate
Mr* Lew: Ho     " •
Mr* Cumyow: Did you not hear him sey he wrote it in the
Consulate
Mr* Arthuri I was talking to Colonel Worsnop at the time
but I remember hearing him say he wrote it in
the Consulate. Did yon hear Dr. Chang
Br, Chang: Ho gavo tho answernin the Consulate" and then
L *
t
Mr. Lew repeated the question and akked him if he
wrote It in the Consulate, He hesitated and then
he changed it*
Mr*: Lew: Yes, Bid you get the last answer.
Mr. Griffin: Ask him again. s$D
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^^ 151-
Mr
wafet; to get this straight
Mr. Griffin: I do not care a button.••*•*••*I want my
question *put to the witness again
Mr* Grant: I want the answer the witness gave* We want
that cleared up
Mr* Griffin: It is on the notes
Mr* Grant: What answer Mr* <Lew*i
witne
Mr. Lew: He began to Bay he wrote it in the Consulate and
then he hesitated and said "I wrote that myself
in my store^and I told that the first time
What
and Mr
Comptroller I do not think we are very much
concerned with Mr* Lew's reputation***a
Mr* Grant: You interrupt all the time
Mr* Griffin: I want my  answer, I do not think my interruptions will bother Mr* Johnson at all*
Mr* Lew: I am explaining what the answer was I got from th
witness
Mr* Griffin: I am not asking you for any explanation....
Mr. Arthur: The first part was that he wrote it in the
Consulate and after that I think he got con
fused and he changed it
Mr* Grant: There was something in addition to saying he
'*■ wrote it in the Consulate *
Mr* Arthur: I am not sure I was talking to Colonel
Worsnop* 1   %  t
Mr Lew: The Chinese Consul heard the second answer
Mr Griffin: What has been said is on the record and I want
|r     the question asked again*
jr  Grant: Will you read the notes Mr* Johsnon
(Hotes read)
Dr* Chang: I would suggest that you ask it again ~xai
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Mr* Griffin: Tell him there seems to be soae doubt aa to
whether he wrote that Chinese character In
tho Consul's place or In hia tmn place
Ask him #hi Ih is right*
Changs Put it the way Mr
t it, whether he
*  t wrote it in the Consulate or in hie own eto
not In his own place or the Consulate.
Mr* Lew: I do not want to use the word store as that is
not suggesting his own place
Mr. Arthurt You are Inverting
Mr* Lew: The Question Is did «
the whole thing
Consul
place or In your own ^laoe
Mr. GriffinI Yea
A. Applicant! Xn tho Consul's place 1
tt* And ask him did ho write that before or after the Consul
put the English words•
A. I told him my name first and he wrote first and then I
wrote.
Air* Grant: Have you a translation of that passport
Mr* Lew: How could I translate It I have not got it
Mr, Worsnop: Mr. Pagan did not give it to you yesterday
Mr. Lew: Mr. Pagan had to work very late and I did not
want to bother hia
tt* Mr* Griffin: Ask him if a Commissioner of Customs of the
Ticeroy or any official
e any in uiry
about his status as a merchant before they
gave him the certificate
A. They did
Q. Mr. Parris: How does he
My partner t<
granted them
that
must investigate before they
Mr* Cumyow: They would investigate before they 1 aimed It a i
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Mr. Lew: My partner said they suet investigate ha for*
thoy granted it
Mr. Cumyow: There was some aor*
Mr
Low: I did not get it I will aak hia again
*.* •* t
A* This partner of nine, 	
Mr. Cumyow: Officer?.
t  t
Mr* Lew: He saya his partner la business who is an officer,
Mr. Griffin: There is a big difference
Mr* Arthur: One of the educated class, an officer In thle
Mr* Gruntt
way that ho has passed a certain examination
You said something about a Bachelor or Arte,
a Squire, I think you put it, Dr. Chang
Dr. Chang: Yes*
Mr. Griffin: Ask him if he knows if the C
8 loner's
Department did make any inquiry about hln
A. The did investigate.
Mr. Parris: That brings us back again to the other question
When
I want to know how he knows It
J
the Interpreter said
nYos it is all right it hae been investigated
Mr
Ask him if that is the Interpreter In the
Consulate or the Interpreter In the Viceroy's
t department
Mr* Cumyow: I do not think he
Mr* Low: The Consul's
•i*
deretanda
CHAH HUNG CHEE Applloant
Mr
Dr. Chang will you toll hia that Z trill
aoting for hia aa far a* poasible
Mr. Worsnop: What 1. M.
A.Chan Hung Chee
<4, that is hia other nj
A. Chang Hong Wing a
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ttt His age
A* 31
tt* Marrjed or single
A. Married.
tt. His wife living
A. Living
tt. What is her name
A. Ching Shee
ttt How many children has he
A. Two sons
tt. Hame and age of each
Bing Lum
and
Q
ing born
year
tt* Where is his family living
A. See Me
tt. Where is that
A. District of Sin ling
tt. What is his business or calling
A. General Merchandise
tt. Where is his; last place of residence
e
A. I carry on business in Tow San
tt. Where is that
A. Sin Hing
art Ing
A. Yes
e
ft. What
A. Goneral Merohandia.
ft. Has he any partners in business
A.
3 paftners including myself
ft. What are their names
A. 0haa Jun Hoy and Yuen Bun Wiok
ft. What is his firm's name and address
A. Ging Sbong
ft. What le the address r
z. -.
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VU 156-
A. In the same place, Tow San
0
tt. How much money is Invested in the bueine
A* $15000 cupitai Itoxicen
tt.
has each partner
> $5000 shares
tt. Why is he coming to Canada
V  ft
A* To start business
tt* Prom whom did he purchase his ticket
A.
Chan Kun Gam to go to Chong Hing
me
tt.*Where la Chong Hing Co
Mr
question^From whom did you
purchase your ticket asked again"
Chan Kun Gem to go ind get it for me from Chong Hing
Co.
tt. Mr. Wor. nop: Whore are Chong Hing Co*
A. I do not know where is Chong Hing Co*
tt. How much did ho pay
A. #86 Gold
ft
tt. Were any conditions asked or any guarantee of landing
given
A. Nothing said
tt. Has he a passport
A. Yes
Q. Produce It (Passport produced and narked "Exhibit A*)
tt. What did this passport or merchant'8 certificate cost him
A. #90 I think
tt. Gold or Mexican j
A. Mexican
1. Do you know anyone in Canada
.*
A. Do not know
tt. Is there anybody here who can Identify you
A* Ho * aaehl xxd
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tt* Did you Write and tell anyone that you were coming
A* X have two friends came over on the boat that went up te
Victoria and he told me when I reached here to go to
Yin Yuin CoJ they are very nice people.
jtt. Ask him if ho wrote and told anyone in Canada that he waa
. coming
v
A* Ho
tt* To what place is he going, in Canada
A* I come to this city
tt* What business does he intend to engage in
A* General merchandise
tt* How much money has he
A. I only have somewhere over #100. gold. I bring along for
expenses after I select a location for a store I will
wire back for money*     .
Q*. Something over §100 gold
A. $128.
tt* In Gold
A. Gold and paper money
a
Q* What kind of paper hi
ask him to show It
That is a $2* Dominion of Canadatn note
my sovereigns are
$
ft. Is he going to the United States
A. Ho  I | ft .
ft. Is he travelling
A. Travelling alone
company
ft. Do you know any others in the party.
A. In tho e«me steamer there is a party I know hut they
I have gone to the United States
ft. Did you
know Jany of them pa your
or m China at all
aJIho I only got aocLuainted on board the boat - ' ! 1"
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^ And no one from China came over in the same
with him. then* *
A Ho* i
tt Haa he ever been In Canada before*
A Ho* *,
tt How long does he intend to remain In Canada
A I come tie re to start business *
tt Does he know how long he will stay.
AI Uncertain*
tt MR* PARRIS: Ask him when was the last time he Baw
Lue Yu Gee*
A Do not know such a man*
A
A
tt
tt
A
A
tt What are the names of his friends that got off at
Victoria*
ame from the same village
do one is Chin Jow Sing and the other Chen Yee Tick
ft What do they do.
A One of them is a labourer.
ft What sort of labour does he do.
know might be on a ranch
ft What does the other man do.
A Any kind of labour.
ft Are they related to him.
A Ho relations just name sakes.
he know them in China
A Yes knew them in China.
Where did he get that Dominion Bank Hot*.
I exchanged that on hoard the boat.
DB. CHASG: What 1* that.
Ii got that exchanged on board the boat.
Mr. Lew: X* that not right.
DH OHAHG: Yes froa th* other passengers
ft    MR. FAHBIS
What did he give for rTfcX
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tt    2s he one of the eleven Mr* Lew,
lO* IEW: I could tell froa the list,
tt    MR. PAEHIS: ASk hia if he knows Whyt heUei
here*
A   Do not knew.
tt   Has he talked It over with any of the other passengers
on the boat.
A    Ho.
tt Have none of them talked over why they were detained
here*
A No.
tt Has he heard any of them cut there express any ourlosiy
as to why they have been detained here.
I did not hear any of them, not hear them talking
•mj
tt Does he not think it strange he la not allowed to land
naturally foal it is strange about being up
long being detained so long and again I thiught
it might be so much business they could
our turn to be examined*
to
land
without any trouble•
A Yes I come with a passport, and it has been stamped and
sealed by the British Consul,
knew it would come
to this way
tt Who told him in China that he could land here all right
Chinese Her chants at home said they come with
they could return all right.
sports
tt Who waa that merchant who told hia that
A My partner Jun Hoy.
q Any others.
A No. ..r     A
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9 159.
ft Tell hia if h* *xp*ot. jto land in Canada ha must tell
the truth*
A I am telling^the truth
tt Ask him why a letter was. written |*nd sent en the 'hont
for him.
MB. GRIPFIB: 2hat is the same point over again. The
witnesl should, be told that it is said. toU that he is
tcidt
Mr
will
be all right but it might givekhim the impression that
i     4
the things might be true, and consequently th he. thinks
if the,, honourable gentleman says so it must be true and
might not be so
explain a thing that is true
I.think it should be so stat
Mr* Parris had been so informed*
MB* PARRIS
my learned friend is not*going
accept that statement of it9 and-is going to make
these interjections all the time I would ask that he
be excluded* We do not know how much these Chinamen
understand]of English and when I ask these little
questions! that are quite proper In every way
MR
can take it that I wiH
every case
MR* PARBIS: Z thin& itinhould be settled once and for
a
all*i or else I think the questions should be asked
privately*      # i
MB* GRIPPIH: I understood distinctly the first dayf
the view Qf  the CemptrnllorjWas my^vlewf that the
ft
witness should be told distinctly that you had been eo
m
think Mr* Grant
same thijig
and if I recollect rightly Mr^ Grant this, morning said
^miim^t-mmmmmw
the same thing.    . I #
MR. WORSHOPl I do net think I eald that* ;I siad I did
not think it fair to, suggest the answer to the witness*
\
is. *
I
ft
*
it ] 160*
MR* GRIPPE!:    Is that not the point
MR
think it Is a fair
Mr* Par
haa been
MR. PARRIS: I would like it settled once and for all.
MR. GRIPPIH: If I distinctly understand that you
Mr* Comptroller arc going to allow Mr. Parris to say to
a
jthe witness, "Why did you write a letter or why was
a letter written for you In China, without telling
him that he is only so informed, but I press it that yourj
original views were that he should be so told that he
was Informed - that Mr. Poster tells me m or it hae been
siad
and not that it is a faot shown. I think that
ought to be the view.
MR. WORSNOP
I will have to decide once and for all
that Mr. Parris or Mr* Grant, must be allowed, under
the instructions of the Department, to ask any
questions he desires* And further it is not contemplated by either the Act of the Department that
these merchant are to be represented by counsel, it is
only a matter of courtesy*
MR. GRIPPIH: When the courtesy is extended it Is for
the matter of being useful to his clients, there is no
object to my sitting here and listening*
MR. PAREIS: I have no objection to my friend objecting
but I do object to his objecting or interfering on the
same point every time*
MR. WORSHOP: I think Mr. Parris must be permitted to
ask hi8 questions in any form he thinks right*
MR* GRIPPIH: My point, my position Is there, and I will
not repeat it but I protest it is not fair In acoordame
with the natural principals of justice t
Mr a Parris: Ask him v/hy a letter was written from
China and send on the boat for hia .   I
ton
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V 161-
A* Ho such logger
Mr. Cumyow* lover heard of it
Mr. Arthur# I do not know of any
Mr* Lew: I will ask him again
A.
ouch
tt. Does he know of any reason why such a letter should be
written
A* Ho doe8 not know
Did he not understand that hia fttende In
arrange for his landing at thle end
A*
I do not know* There might have been some friend
write a letter I do not know
tt* Did he not expect there would be
A* No I do not expect such a letter
tt* Did he not pay money in China to help him get into
Canada
A* No
tt* Who got this passport for him
A* A gentleman by name of Chin Sxm  Hoyf he gtt up a
petition for me to get it.
it
tt* How did he come to do Jthis man he mentioned
A* I requested thix Chin Jun Hoy, to do It for me
tt* What did the friend, the gentleman do with the petition
after he wrote it out
Ha took it with him.
the petition and myself to Canton
City
Q. What did he do in Canton City
A. When we got to Canton City he handed in thle petition
pto the Viceroy for me
tt. Why did he not do it himself
A* An ordinary merchant cannot do that, that must be done
by a gentleman
himself at all • A
a
# 162-
A. Ho I cannot see him*
*
4. Did he go to th* Viceroy's offio* himself
A. Just the doorway of the Court   t
Q. How long after that did ho get his passport
Mr* lew: Prom the time he handed in the petition until
long
Mr* Parris: Yes
A* On
day of tho 7th month got the passport
tt. Did this gentleman bring it to his home town for him
A. I got it myself
tt. Where did he get it    ?
A. Through the Court house of the Viooroy
tt. Was the gentleman with him
A* Did not
tt* Did he say in Canton City during this time
A. Prom the time of the petition until the time I got it
no I went back to my store.
tt. How did he know when to come frees for the passport
m
A. After he investigated and he sent a notice down to me
to go and get it
tt* When did he have his photograph taken
Aa The beginning of the 6th month
tt* Who told him to do that
A* I had that taken on my own accord
tt* What for
your photograph taken
the certificate*
tt* How did he know that
A* Must have the photograph to Investigate whether that
man is a business man
tt. Who told him that
A. Nobody told me so /
LA ;    A
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* 163-
tt* How did he know it if nobody told him so
A* You must have photograph to investigate whether this
man
rchant
fere they grant It
>und
•x/
The British Government says such a regulation
J   l ft    i      t        tb    t |
Mr* Farrlai Dr. Cfeang: Do you think he understands
we will try it again, tell him we want to
ffta
know hew he knew about these regulations1
how he found out about it*      ?
A. This Jun Hoy he always go down to do his purchasing in
Hong Kong he knew and he came back and told me
tt* What did he do with the photograph after he had It
taken
taken I went with Jung
to the floor oyfs. court*
tt. Ask him if he signed this passport himself
A. No
writing on that document
pati there by him
A. No
any writing
my
name
tt. Did he put any writing of any kind on that photograph
A* No £   ^
tt* Did he write his nane o# it
- -*
A. No . } ....... .2
tt. Did he write his name on that passport any place
A. No
Q* Was he &sked to do so
A. No v     A ..
tt* Ask him Who wrote that up there in Chinese "*•
axM
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A.
might have been the Viceroy's court. I do not know
tt* Did he eee it written
A* I did not see that written
anything written on the photograph
or anything else
A* No
tt*
baok of tho photograph and ask hia
who wrote that
A. I do not know it might have been the Viceroy's court
tt. Ask him to write his name
(The characters are the same)
Mr* Arthur: You could not tell** dlfforent brushes make
a difference you know
tt. Mr. Parris: Ask him what clothes
A. Not much clothes
tt. How many suits of clothes
A. S or 3
tt. Are they working clothes
A. No
tt. Mr. Lew: Did you say suits
Mr. Parris: Yes
Mr. Lew: They do not have suits
brought with him
tt*
many
A. Do not know how many pieces
tt. Are they working
A. No
*« »
oo at 8
tt    What twork'f did he do before he became a merchant
A.  Sohollar
tt. What does his father do
A. Merchant
tt. Where does he live
A. He is dead
tt* How long has he been deed r
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A* Over 10-9 years
tt. Haw long has ho been a merchant
A* 10 years *
tt* Where did he get his money, to boecme a merchant
A* Left by ray father
Q* Yes, but he wae a mcrchant before his father died
hew longtwere you In business before your father died
an
tt* Mr* Grant: How many pawn shops are there in tho village
of See Mo
A* No pawn shops
towns
Mr, Arthur: I believe there is a bigger r±3±x£a: closo
hy
tt* Mr. Grant: Are there any bigger towns nearby
Mir. Lew: That Is near by See Me
Mr. Grant:■ Yes
I
A. Three and one-third miles distant from See Mo there is
Pow Sec
Ning
A* About 10 miles
tt. la Pow Sec between his village-; and Sin Ning
A. If you start from Sin Ning 01 ty you will pass my
a
village before you get to Pow Soo
tt* Ask him how many people there arc in his village
A. About 300 people in See Me
tt Ask him if any people have been there lately from Canada
-  jjr# lew J That is come back from Canada there
Mr* Grant: Yos
A There was a couplo returned oome back from Canada to
gee 2§
tt. What were their names
A.!Just those two I already nentioned
tt* la that all •#v, i«f
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A*  That is all,  there 1
Mr.   Worsnon*  TTc>  a*ir\
Jung
ami
but his place of business was Sow San
Jtr* Lew: This three returned from Nanaimo
Mr* Griffin: The third one?
Mr* Lew: The three of them
tt* Mr. Gr^nt: What did they do
A. Just laborers
tt* What are their names
■
*
A. Jung Noon returned to Vancouver*
tt. Bid Jung Noon tell; him how to come to 3Vancouver
A. No
tt. Did Jung Noon talk to him before he*came to Canada
Mr. J!»ew; That vis in China
A. 3teHiMr.^ 6r;ant: Yes
• *
A. Applicant s^I "told him about a oer1$ein time I was
coming over here to, start business*
%*-V
Mr* Grant* I understand
thoy do not use the Surname, ask him if
Jung NooAfi real name fis not the; same as his
Chan Jung Noon   m
A. Yes
tt* And ask him if he
A* No blood relation
know Ohan Jung
il
A* Dead
knowa*Chan
A. J do know*him
tt* Where is he now
A* In-Nanaimo
knows Chan Yung Wah
A* l^may not know the.name*
o. Da  vcu know OhaniiYu Wei1 XCOOft  ftXU
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(t   *P 167-
untry
before he cane over here
tt. What were their names
A* Chan Hang Wah, and Chan Wah Pong
and
W1 ■
know
tt* Do you think that is about right
A. About that age ,
tt. Has Chan Yee Wu got a £ Arm in See Me
A. See Me is only a village he might have a business in
Tow San
tt. Doe
Mr*
know your business in Tow San
Wu
Mr. Grant: Yes
know
Q. Do you remember when he left for Canada
long time. Do not know
when :ihe left*
tt* Ask him if Chan Jung Noon knows his business in Tow San
A* He visited there* I guess he •knows I do not know if he
knows ar not^
tt* Ask him if he did not talk to him about CanadaJin his
store
Mr* Griffin: Here
Mr* Grant: No, in China       •*&  .
A* No
tt. Where did you talk to him
my village
Canada
tt* That is his heme village
A. Yes
Chan v Jung I Noon1 s Tillage
A*INo the next village irtif
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tt.
Vlllage of i See Me Is Shan
village
A* No next village
Jung
A.
change that answer it Is the1* same village
Q* His home village*' I
A. Yes
tt* Are there many families of Chans there
A. Tee J
tt.* Are they all Chans *
A* Some of them are Yuens
tt* How many Chans are there
A* A little over two hundred
tt* Ask him if Jung Noon did not tell him that laborers
had to pay $500 to come into Canada
A. Ho A
tt* *Ask him If he did not go from Tow San it$ See Mejf
with these two beys and Jung Noon;
A. They do not live in the same store, he was two days
ahead of me going out and I went alone,
know he was two days ahead
A.
San
and
tt* Did you say good bye to him there
A; No I did not speak to him
ing
ing to take
Empress of Ohlna
Q* So yon knew he came on the same boatc Cs you did
A* Yes
tt* Ask him why he told the Comptroller that he did not
know^anyone in Oanada-
A' I'do not know'anybody here, these two are for jNanaimo r
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tt*
and
know anyone in Canada
A* I do not know anyone In this city
tt* Ask him why h* said he did not know anyone in Canada
Ask him if he did not know that Nanaimo was in Oanad
A, Yes he said that was Inside the British Colony that
Nanaimo w*o a city Inside of that, |	
Q* Tell him that we use the word Canada and when we used
that word Jfcn said he did not know anybody in Oanada
A. I thought you were asking about Vancouver
tt. Is there any doubt about the translation of that word
Mr* Lew:
Mr. Lewi No there can be no doubt I used the word
■Canada and said the words British Colony in
!        order to make that clear
tt. Ask.him what street in Sow San his business is on
A. Yin How
rm
You mipht translate that Mr. Lew
Mr. Lewi After saying that to Consul he said Tow San
name
the name of his street Yan How and Jung Chong
was the name of the firm
Mr. GriffinJ No question.
artners in Tow San
v
own particular position in the firm
the accounts, Book-keener
(Paper containing name and address of applicants firm
marked Exhibit1^")
■>,: >
Bft-6* NO YIK (8187)   (3)    Applicant
tta  fi£r* Worsnop:  What i8 his name
A* NG YIK —
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Q. Is
A. Yes
family name
Qi What is his other name
A. flg Kong Wlea
Q. How old is he
A. 24
Q Married or single	
A. Married
Q. Wife living
A. Living
Q. What is her name
A. low She*
Q. How many children
A. None
tt. Where Is his family living
A*  San Poy
tt. What district
A. Sin Ning
tt. What is his business or calling
A. Dry Goods
tt. Dry Goods what
A. Dry Goods merchant
tt. What is his last place of re idenoe
A. Sai Tai, District of Sin Ning
tt. Does he intend starting bualne
A. Otoe
In Canada
tt* What kind
kind of business is suitabl
I may start a drygoods store
tt. Any partners In business
A. Yes three other partners
tt. What are their names
A* Chini San Hing: Chanl
Low Wing Jio •   ■
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Q. What is hi. firm's name and addrose
a
A* Wing Yuen, San Tai
*. now mucn money is invested in the firm
A. $14000
tt. How much has each partner
A. $3500.
tt. Why la he coming to Canada?
A. Looking to start business here
tt* from Whom did he purchase his ticket
A. I requested a friend of mine to get it for me
tt. Who is his friond
A. Chan Kun Chong
tt. In Hong Kong
A. Yes
from does he know
A. f do not know where he got it
tt. How much did he pay
A
A* $85 Gold
any conditions asked or any guarantee of lauding
given
A* No
ttt How much did hia passport cost him
A. $90 Mexican
tt. Who did he pay that te      |
A* I gave it to a gentleman ( Sin S&ee )
(passport marked Exhibit A)
tt. Does he know anyone in Canada
A* I do not know
Mr** Grant: You might explain to him by "Canada* we moan
*nt only Vancouver but the whole of thia
British Colony
A* I do not know ( He says"! understand , why should you
ask me so nany times) -J*I
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A      .« 178-
Mr* Worinop: Did he write andl toll anybody he was
coming
A* No
tt. To what place is he going In Canada
A. Coming to this city
tt. What business does he intend to engage in
A. Drygoods*
tt* How much money has he
A. 20 Sovereigns
tt* Any letters of credit or drafts
A. No
e
tt* Are his 20 sovereigns in gold, has he got the money
with him thero
A. Yes
ft
tt* Is he going to the United States
A* I intend to ocme here, I am not going to the State
tt* Is he travelling alone or in company with others
A. Alone
tt. Did he know any others in the party
A. No
tt. Did he know any of them in China..
A. No
*
tt. Ahybody come over from China in the same ship with
t that he knew
A. Some of them I have seen before
tt. Where (Mr* Lew, he corrects that answer and says h|
saw them before until he got on Jaoard the b|
tt. Has he ever been in Canada before
a
A. No
tt* How long does he intend to stay
A* Not until I settle down in business I cannot tell
uncertain*
tt. Mr * Grant: When did you get that photograph taken - *Yl
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* 173-
The 8th day
nth
tt* Whore did'you get it taken
A* In San Tai
tt* What did you do with it when'you got it
A. I took that to the Viceroy's court
Q* What day did you take it to the Viceroy*s court
A* The 20th day of tho 6th month
Dr. Chang
an use the word Yaman* Mr
ant under
stands that
tt* Mr. GrantrHe took it to the Yemen did he
A* Yes
tt. Did you see the Viceroy yourself
A. I seen him once
tt. Did you talk to him
A. I did not talk to him
tt* Who talked to the Viceroy about you
A. A gentleman fa Sen flhee)
tt* Were you present when the Sen Shop i
talking
A*
hCa*r him
4* Whore wore you
A. I we* on the outside
tt* How;* long did you hav
A* About a month
When
to wait for this passport
to get the certificate*
A* I did notsee the Viceroy
did
A. NO
tt. About getting the passport
A* I did not see the Viceroy
Q* Did the Viceroy see you
A. No he did not
tt* When was this once you saw the Viceroy, pan spoke about
once seeing the Viceroy t a
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D*. Changs  I would like to apeak to the witnese (I to 14
him to xtotnenbcr not to shew hie t|
M** Grantt You salA you saw the Viceroy once when
A.
this oijco
any time
people cannot see hia
any officials
A* Yes
Q. Who did he send
A* He Bent his interpreter to eee me
Mr, Lew: That may epply to his attendant not neoesearlly
interpreter
Mr* Arthur: It io generally known ae a messenger
tt* Mr* Grant: Whore did ho send him te
A* Outside the building
tt. Mr* Grant t Outside tho building:
A. Outside the Yaman
any of the offl
the Yaman?
A. I saw him once, thle attendant once
tt. What did he come out to boo you about
A* It le in connection with giving you a certificate
tt. What did he eay to you
A. He did not have much to say
tt. What did he do
A* He says you come back to got it on the 28th day of the 6th
month
tt* Was that before or after your Son Shoe went in to see the
Viceroy.
A* The Sen Shoe went to see hia first this was after
tt* On the same day
A* On the sane day
tt* Different hour or different tine the aaae ley
A. Yes ~tf
•
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ttft Hew many hours apart*
A. A little over an hour :
tt. Did you wtite your name on the photograph when yaa
A. I did
tt* How did you write it
A* I wrote Jg
tt* Is that all you wrote
A. There le one word blotted
tt* What word was blotted
A* At the point of that last character was blurred
out,
him if that is not a third character that is blurred
ask him whore is the blot on the second character
A. There is only two characters to my name that waa a blot
tt* Are you sure you had no name under that before you blurred
it.
had just written it wrongly
$    Mr. Cumyow: No that Is not It
Mr. Lew: What wae it I will ask himjUgain. He says he
wrote it wrongly and blotted it*
Mr. Grant: You wrote it wrong so you blotted out tho mistake.
A* I intended to write 3 g Wik but I had written three charac
tors it is Yik wrong bo I blotted it out.
Mr* Arthur: He wrote Yik twice and that le why he wrote it
wrongly
Mr. Grant: So you say it ie Yik
under that
wrote Yik twice that la why I blurred It out
ret thla photograph and gave it to the Sen Shoe
that
you saw the photograph until
got the passport*.
A
the
BentbAfaet in
and
was on the certificate
q. what id he do in th** hueinea*. what aar* hia partioal*r* -ctJ.
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duties in his own business
A* Z am the j manager
tt* How long has that partnership been in existence
a
A* a little over two years
tt* What were yott doing before you wtre In that business
A* Going to school in my own village
tt* Did you do any of the work around the store, the actual
physical work, moving boxes, any labor
A* No, I ami the manager, I do not do that
tt..How many employees are there in this store
Aa 5 or 6
Q* Mr. Worsnop: In addition to the partners
A* In addition
Mr. Grant* Ask him to show me his hands —   —
tt. Mr
other partners did in the
store
A. I am the only one in tfee firm they do not stay around
, the Btore they are, not active
tt. How much business does he do In a year
*
A* overc$10O,0O0.
tt* What did he pay the different employees in the store
A* #120 to #130 a year
tt. Does that inolude board, the same as it does here
A. Yes  • '"
tt. How much profit did he meke last yefcr
A. #lY*|o* Six thousand dollar.^ |        m^P
What
doduoting *xp*ns«s and wagesfand*food forfthe empl.je
ItSft ahoat    tto o* thr*© Ithoaaandfdollars
q. Mr.  Grant:  That is let profit
A, To.» the oth*r istgiro.a profit
Q.   Did you .*p*ot an3^ftt*nd. to arit* h*r*
coming
A. So ~e .
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177-
tt. Have you any friends in Hong Kong that would write
A. No
Mr.  Lew on the boat at Victoria
A*  I do
• tt. Do you remember him cheoking up the passengers in the
Intermediate
A. He did net see me
t. | m
tt. Do you remember telling Mr. Lew there was a letter for you
on the boat
A. No
Mr
need the Interpreter.
Q. Where did you get that hat fHe did not answer)-
&Ir. Lews He says he did not see me at all so therefore
he did not say anything about a letter
Mr • Griff in: Mr. Comptroller ho says he has his money
Do you want it produced
Mr. Worsnop: Has he got It on his person.
A.
Yes
Mr. Worsnop; Produce it (20 sovereigns produced)
tt* Ask him what he intended to do with that money
A. Expenses
tt* If ho was going in business here how was he going to
arrange his money for that
A* If I started iu business here I would cable back or
t | money
wire back to my partners at San Tai to send me back
here*
tt Ask him if It is the custom among business men'of his
class to use the telegraph freely
Mr. Arthur
o
egrams
business
A. I nerer wired before
Mr. Worsnop: He does not understand
get money by telegraph m*+
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V 178-
Mrw Lew: He saya wire- Electric
and he says no
to your question
learned about sending
by telegraph, ask him where he got his informs-
tion about telegraphing for money
Aa I ask people I know about It
ams
ofJ any kind
A. My firm never used the wire before
tt* Ask him Wit? it waa talked to him about telegraphing fo:
money was it the bankers or his partners or who
A* I never used the telegraph wire before I do not know
tt. Mr. Grant: Ask him why he thinks he- could get money by
'telegraph
A* I could ask people here how to go about it to wire,
tt. Mr. Griffin: Ask him if his firm would know what to do
if he; sent a telegram for-money
illknow
tt. How wlU the send the money
A. The will send it *2rom Hong Kfcng
Qa^Mr* Grant & Ask him if he can writ
draft,if he knows how they ire made out like
& a
those we have had produced In the other oases
A* I could
tt* Mr. Worsnop: Ask him how his partners would get money
»
|T on receipt of this telegram,where would they
get the money and how would they get it
* organized
A. I had already arrasaert #20,000. before I left
Mr* Griffin: Arranged I suppose he means
A. Yes
tt* Mr. Worsnop: With whom had he arranged for this #20
A. Arranged that with my partners
tt* And what were his partners to do when they a ^
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*: 179
message from him for that money .
A* Upon receiveing my wire they will send the money
tt*, Mr. Grant: Supposing he sent the wi*e$ now oould he get
1   that money wired over say in a week by
telegraph
A* No that Is too quick, one week
tt* How long* would It take  *
A. Over a month e *
Mr
Ask him if his firm has a bank
do their money business
ft.
A. Money is-put in the store, right in the store
Mr.
Arhtur: Chineso. money matters business Is not trane-
■■;, %    always *
acted/through Banks except at the Coast points
at Hong Kong where large Bnaklng systems
prevail, but on the West river money is exchanged between different attires my means of
drafts on one another.
firm
money the regular settling day is the Chinese
New Year but if money is required before that
date he can always get is by arranging with
or      I ■     *
that store and another astorea He bends along
to you and says yougot goods to the amount of
#2000. Oan you let me have something on account,
You cannot do it but you say I will give you a
draft on somebody else who owes me money and eo
on* It is a matter of good faith,
credit.* a * « . i
Mr* Griffin: Is there a telegraph office in his village
A* No.
tt* How far away   *
A I do not k#ow- Far away from a telegraph off loo
tt.
am
Hong Kong and Hong ir
no:
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^m*4mm*     > ^ 180
Bomebody to carry that back to my Village
tt* Who afe your friends in Hong Kong.
Mr, Lewi His answer was that he would telegraph to Hong
Kong and it would be^ some friend, anybody that
happened to come along
tt* Just a cousin        4
A* Just anybody who happened along ^
tt* Would he send his telegram to any particular firm in Hong
Kong •
A. Sun Yuen Sing
tt* Mr* Worsnop: Has he had any business dealings with this
firm he has Just mentioned
A* No
tt. He Just knows of them
A* Ho dealings
tt. He Just knows of them
A* Yes, Just know of them
Mr* farrlaiiWe have concluded Mr. Comptroller that there is
no use in continuing these questlonsat present
apparently these men all have the same story
now ahd I would suggest that you go through
with the formal routine questions and if there
is anything that suggests itself to your mind
that you want to ask you oan do so* and after
that if there is anything that we want - to chock
up we would-be at liberty te do so but it Is
our
what they are to say.
wise now to
Mr* Worsnop: I suppose you are going to retire now
Mr. farris: I suppose if we go Mr. Griffin will go
Mr
know
Mr. Parris: I rather assume Mr* Comptroiler, in taking thla
i        stand that you agree with us that those certificates have been demonstrated? to'i be of no r r»
c» ; (
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value is establishing the statue of these men
as merchants
Mr. Worsnop: It certainly looks as if there had been a
t
business of making them out
is: I would, sjtggest that we be permitted to perus
these formal questions afterwards and any other
questions that you deem it wise to put	
Mr* Worsnop: Certainly, I will not go outside of these
formal questions
Mr. Griffin: The only thing that strikes me Is this,
I do not wish to offend Mr* Lew .but ho is
he very nan who has suggested all this and
put these men to all this trouble and I
t
feel if they are to be examined and we
counsel are to withdraw, I feel that you
aught to have an interpreter other than Mr*
.■ *
Lew. Mr. Lew may be an entirely good man..••
Mr* Worsnop: There is not the slightest objection te your
linfng here and Mr. Cumy
own
and mine regarding Mr* Lew, as Mr* Lew is
engaged by the Department and is going to
remain and the Chinese Consul and Mr. Arthur
will both remain* *It?is entirely in the
hands of tho Department
Mr• Griffin: It was simply that I was taken entirely by
surprise*
Mr* Poster. It will not be necessary for Mr* Johnson to
remain to report all these formal questions
Mr* Wornsopr It is entirely in the hands of the Counsel
for the Government.
Mr. Grant: Has Mr. Griffin any
m £
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Mr. Griffin: As to what L     M i   II
Mr. Grant: Asfto whether the Stenographer should take
everything down verbatim
lira Griffin: I have no opinion to offer anything I have
f HI I   suggested has been of so absolutely ineffect
ive, \anythingjI might say\now
• • •
Mr
this lino of questions
anyway
Morning Session, Friday, October 7, 1910*
MB* GRANT: There was ono point I understood was reserved
to be dealt With this morning*
The matter of Mr* Griffin1b request to
ask certain witnesses certain questions*^
MR. GRIFFIN: Nos. 19 and 20 in my list.
MS. WORSNOP: About the drafts.
MR. GRIFFIN: That is what I am going to ask, but while
a
I do not wish to be discourteous, ordinarily
1 1 would] say I was tfOina to ask what I saw fl'
but ae a matter of fact that is what I am
going to ask*
MR. WORSNOP:    Ho but the promise I made, when Mr. Farrla
deal
any matters outside of J the.routine!questions
Have you any obJootion to it being done
now
MR GRANT: I see no reason why that should not be*
MR
\
MR
IN: The names of the men are Lee Tu Chan and
Chin Wing •
WORSNOP: Lee Yu Chan is No. 2193 I
Just explain; to him that he Is to give the
11  fullest Information about these drafts he Utt
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that
MR.  GRIFTO:    Aft* hia If h* under.tandft the Win
a Chinese draft.
A    I do not know.
A
Q
A
Q
A
form
my hands I do not knoa
nay be *ho style all right.
ano
him to so* these others.
A lie does not know.
CHIN WING (Monteagle)
Q MB. WORSNOP: Tell him his counsel wants to ask him some
que s t ions.
Q MR. GRIFFIHI
rm
la used, in China.
anothe
Each party keeps one half*
<4 He*has seen drafts similar to this
A Yes.
ned. at the bottom
MR*.L3W: Can^you give another word for signed*
Q MR
stamp
make it valid*
tamp
depend On the signfture*
q    j^k hj[m yfay there is a stamp and why a signature* Ask him
to explain all that, ^that the Comptroller wants to know
^all about these drafts *£
A Some of them stamp and sign the signature too and some of
thcmtjust stamp. There are two ways. &
MR ARTHUR: He means sometimes used with the stamp^ and : JL
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somotlmos with the stamp and signature.
MR
Q
Z
Q
respect to Kwong Yu Ewong (2188)
rm as far
tho f orm* is conoemcd.
A As far as the form is concerned each store has their
different forms, he does not know about ita
stamp, the same as the
other one.
A Everybody there uses their own stamps* They have
their own use to it, I do not knew about this*
Tell him 2 am not asking him! if he knows that fir
stamp that individual stamp but Is1 it the kind of
stamn that ought to be used on a draft, that is w
A
A
A
I mean*
Do not know if ;thls stamp
depends on word of trust*
Just
know
<i MR
Mr* Lew Is that a:draft
of credit*
A MR. LEW: This is Just the bill head of tho firm
Q But the body of it*
name
and place Hong Kong# and the letter is Just the da
and the border is the bill head form but the stamp
does here Is the only thing to indicate the firm.*
Q What does the body of the thing say.
rule
forms of draft the party it le drawn
l
V
and the amount
Kong
He eays "Received
note, fin exehanfe
V
|1200* gold
Thle money Is to be payable to Lee Wong
I  i
Sand And there is a short note here saying After paying
our
ramnamm
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current
Ihat is th* firm it
la made by and the people *it is drawn en*
Q MRa GRIFFIN: When you say "receive" you mean^eceived^
the past tense* ......
A Xt3* Thejmost peculiar part Is tho ttamp used*
I  Ee would never put this etamp to a document that ils iany
t      f y ■   j  I
value for moneys or to draw on him except if thia was
,  used to draw on^goodsjUs* that not right Mr* Arthur.
You have probably Been  them. ThiSApartioular stamp
ia a common stamp..*.
{      MR. ARTHUR: I know thoy are Tory  careless.
MR* LEW: Yes but the stamp itself, it saysl,Thls stamp
is for sending out goods, otherwise no value, no use,
can not be used* i
a
MR* ARTHUR: I know they have got different stamps
some for sending out goode and some for money orders.
a mr
man do Chinese firms
dlfferentwOtamps.
A Of oouree I-can^notftoll about other firms but I myself
as a business man hare sevoral stamps and I knew it Is
common knowledge that a firm wiJLl have three or ten or
more
a Do they have one that Is expressly for drafts and nojt
others
A& Some of then have and some have not
can tell^if that stamp is properly
the  s* W ^   ^p   ' <   s '. want
n j£ document, that Is what we wnt
at
know
is fso I cannot say . i j ^ . - >
o    If this draft was drawn on him and he knew this firm
would he pay It
4* Mr- Grant: With that stamp An it *aei
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*v    * 186-
Hr
ehat I aeon faith that1 snap
it
A. If I trust them I will pay it
Q. Mr* Grant: Ask him then what meaning he takes from these
words here (Part of the stamp)
A* Mr* Lew: He read it
(«* Mr* Grant: Ask him whht effect that would have on tha
draft*
A* I do not know about them of course It is a word of trust
Mr* Grant: It would Just bo a matter of trust
he mean, Taking a chance?
A* Sometimes I will pay it just on verbal Instructions, I do
not Have to get even a letter, I will pay it
Mr. Griffin: This man has been referring to a draft on
Lee 'Tong (2196)* Show him now the draft of
Ye on Chow Kee f 2188) and ask him if that
sarao
him
A* It is the same form*
asked him
him is true about this one
A* Yes, he said it applies the s
o.. Mr* Worsnop: Show him the two
A* Same form just the same "
Mr* Grant: Mr* Lew: You have not completed the literal
translation of the passport
Mr. Lew: I have not girt it In my hands yet,this ie the
first time it has been given to me
Mr. Grant: In the meantime I would ask you if there le
anything In that passport identifying tha
photograph of th*-ftomlgramtJ
the person to whoa th* passport
issued
A. Ho
jlr, jxttar: She re aught to ha, here is the ap r
*.
ft •
*
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IX
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t
. ft 187-
marked with red and the red mark says Uake
note that the photograph on the margin is
the one referred to. If you ask the consul
I think you will find that Is the meaning *
k v * *
tho red mark
Mr
That is the reason JI, say I wish to have tine
Mr* Arthur
ning of the character, I have
asked the Consul
Mr
aoauu,     VJAV    VUXAOUJ.
Lew: If you havo asked the Consul then you had better
tell Mr* Grant.
Mr. Arthur: No I have no authority to speak at all I am
just asking you to translate what those characters moan.
Mr* Lew: The word Jen if it does apply to anything at
all, that the certificate or document it says
on the left hand side is the holder of tho
certificate and then gives the name of the appli
cant
Mr. Cumyow: Merchant # .
Mr. Lew: That word applies to trader as well ae merchant
Mr. Cumyow: Ch^ng.^Mun
Mr
the word trader, applies to all and you will
find the word {•*••*•) it Is greater trader and
lesser trader * The great trader may apply to a
re ally
man in a larger business and/the word trader
and merchant are the same   j
Mr. Griffin: They are the same in English are 	
a
Mr* Lew: It does not refer to the photograph it says on
the left is the holder
Mr* Griffin* It clearly indicates does it not, Mr. Arthur
that on the left of this document is something
to indicate the holder ef it
Mr* Worsnop: Mr. Lew: Will you take that certificate to '
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i
translate it*
ft
Mr. Grant: Speaking generally Is there anything
man
merchant or what might be called a small trader,
a peddler.
Mr* Lew: Nothing that applies as far as this certificate Is
I concerned he might be a big trader or a very small
trader. The
man
Q. Is there anything to Indicate that the man is not engaged
king
that is If he is a mer
chant within the meaning of the Chinese Emmlgration
*
Act*
A* No, nothing to indicate that at all
Mr* Grant: Have you ai copy of the Act there so that I night
refer to it in the wording Of the Act, is the
word indicating merchant in that ppssport, does
it Include anything that would' exclude him being
I -w mu%2    •*_ wi   I *u     yassistant 1
a merchant1pmclerk or other/Ercpruywa KKgKgm±
employee, a peddlar or a person engaged in taking
drying or otherwise preserving fish for home or
I would
foreign or other4 consumption with the word used
in that certificate be- equally applicable to the
words I have mentioned here
A* Yes
Qa Does It exclude the jman
A. No. it does not exclude him as Mr. Cumyow Just said Commer^
clal subject, and I would say that the word Trader applies|
to merchant of toy kind
And would that include a h
ft
of la merchant's assistant•
I fts* *:•!;*:-#
position
Mr
Griffin: It is a matter of construction
Mr* Grant* It is a matter of translation, whether that f I
* -
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r 189-
Ohinese word Includes merchant's clerk
Mr* Griffin:
i      any morel then you or I* >;      -
Mr* Grant: You might ask Mr* Cumyow, what he means
*   Commercial subject in that J
that mean someone engaged in Commerce In a
Commercial transaction
A. Engaged in some business
Mr
hi
A* Yes
Q. And that is what you would call a literal translation
A. Yes, Commercial subject ^ ^
man eng
Mr. J»ew: The two Chinese words ^re very wide
Mr* Griffin: Is it not a^fact that it says distinctly
"Signed by the Consul" that this passport Is
issued to Chuck Toe, a Chinese merchant giving
s name
in English and Chinese both
Q. Identifying his name In Chinese and English
and
Q, And the Consul signed it tit
A. Yes    | 4    .    m  .,
Q. And the Consul put his seal on the ^photograph
A. It appears there #
Q. Andtthie rema^ en the laqt or the left line on the
% « not   ^vf 7
certificate which you/have translated with any care
yet, indicates there is a .document on the left hand,
there Is something that indicate who the holder of the
certificate is,       ^ ,  ^.
a    Mr Lew: On the left is the helder of the certificate
a
Mr. Griffin: Does It not in implication state that on
the left is the photograph of the holder of this
certificate*.  _
A* Z suppose -    i
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I * J 190-
Q* What le this word hero
A* That Is the ward for commercial subject, Ching kun*
Q. fthing Mun: If a man la a retailer in a chop ia China
selling rubber botte would this word Ching
write word to describe his business
the
A* If he ie a man who haa a large wholesale etore that word
would apply to him, t
Q* I mean if he has a retail store like Fyke celling boots
over the counter would that word describe his business
A* That word would describe him as far as the Chinese written
language would apply and that would apply to a
business if he had a small stand on the street*
Mr* Cumyow: No you could not apply to him*
1
Mr* GriffinI
If we had a man selling bananas on a oart o
the street you say Ching Mun would apply to
him*
A* No,
the
pply to him as Ching Mun
is a subject which does some trading*
Then I tak
any nan who buys and
goods in a ship would be Included In Ching Mun
A* Yes, but it is not necessary to have a shop
Mr* Cumyow: Oh Yob
Mr* Arthur: He would be a Ching See wi
a Ching Hun with a shop
a shop and
Mr* Lew: Any men In the Empire is a Hun of the Zing
and Ching is commercial
Mr. Griffin: Is it not right that the custoaery word for
a
the man who is indicated is the word for Ching
Mun
A* Yes.
Mr* Grant: I suppose there ia the
that happens In English, t "if
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iXff— 191
everyday translation
A* Yes,
an
document, first* I translate it* literally and then I have
to get the ^equivalent In* English*
Mr
to get a translation also have an opportunity
of having It translated by the Consul or have
some good Interpreter translate It and if you
have a form of certificate here****
Mr« Worsnop: We have not and I think you are wasting^ a
lot of time as we have distinct instructions
that those certificates are not to be con©
sldered as absolute prntff and they might be
disregarded altogether
Mr* Griffin: If you are going to disregard them altogether
I will drop this discussion, but you have not
said and- we cannot ask you to say wether you
are going to disregard them*
Mr. Worsnop: I think the meeting this morning was simply
for Counsel to submit their views to the
Department.
Mr. Griffin: May I have the right to send an interpreter
*
or Dr. Chang to translate one of those certi-
fioates
Mr* Worsnop: I might say it is my intention to request Dr.
Chang to translate one of them* I do not know
Mr
if he will be good enough to do so
If he refuses I would like to know i
have the right to have it translated
would
\
Mr. Worsnop: Yes.
Mr. Grant: Mr* Lew, deft you know Hung Fung Co. of Cumberland
ft I a 1 \
That is mentioned in the draft. ^
Mr. Lew: I Investigated. \
Mr.  Griffin: It seems to me that it makes it very difficult lYArtfl
at ,
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. 192-
*
for the8e men1 to cheek the inelinatie informa
tion that Mr* Lew gets and I would submit it
not fair to these hncn
Mr. Grant:
It is simply information in the hands of the
Department.
Mr
tsimply say that he got it from so and so and there
is nothing to show that it Is true. f
Mr• Battls; There 18 nothing to show that It is not true,
Mr a Griffin: Mr* Lew can only speak from what he is told
and the ones who do the tolling aught to be
the ones who come here.
Mr. Grant: I think subject to objection it might as well
be given now. It will be submitted to the Department anyway it is Information in the hands
•of officials and It Is Information to Mr.
Griffin to tho extent that he*.will know what
our information is
Mr. Griffin: Apparently you are given a lot of gossip,|
might be right, and it might not be, you have no
means of checking It, It is only information
given to iwi  Lew and it may be all wrong*
Mr
if you want to you
ing in your men and they can
it.
Mr* Worsnop: You can submit anything you want to Mr. Grant
The matter will receive all the attention of the
* Department, it is not bgoing to be pigeon holed
and it is not going to be settled In 5 minutes,
Is going to be handled by one of the brightest
rnment
est legal
talent possible
Mr. Griffin: Who? *x
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Mr4 Worsnop: Mr. O'Hara.
Mr* Grant: I think that the ^information should go in as
information in the hands of the Department
and if Mr* Griffin wants to contradict it he
*
can submit any information he has*
Mr* Worsnop: You can get your source of information from
*  Cumberland and submit it. I would like to hear
Mr
what Mr. Lew has to say.
name
way it appears on that letter. I went to local
Chinatown and approached two firms which have
got connection with Cumberland firms, one of
know the firm and
him
Sue Gee Chong, Pender Street East, who has some
ly     j ti.. *      t
Clansmen most/settled in Cumberland* He informed
|me that this little store was started up by a
Wong, that is a Sur-name, I further questioned
him as to the name of the particular man and he
said it was Wong Chuck Mun, whose name has been
mentioned in this investigation, but he was in-
rm Hung Pung
business,
is out of
n ±h±x he said
■
this firm have money twice now through the Chinese
firm. They allow the certificate of registration
\
to remain In the Registry it is not cancelled.
Mr. Grant:No declaration of dissolution I suppose,
\
X
Mr. Lew. Yes put it that way, I got rather inquisitive and
and he did not want
wer and further and next day I went back, and he
»v
xplain
said
t
\
name
1     . a    | y I
the sign board but in
reality there is very little goods to be seen
ifei*?
\ *
* at
A
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a
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mc    v-a
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a a
ft
a
►    * 5- 194-
around there, and I asked if I could depend on
his information and he eald the beet thing yen
oan do is to send a men  over there himself, I
I did not want to press any further,that la
I gathered from him*
Mr. Arthur
A. General merchandise
Q. Mr. Griffin: Who Is the man who told you*
A. Mah Yuu Jing. He is the manager of the firm
ME. PARRIS:-
make a few remarks a Thi
their status to your satisfaction cubjeot to the approval of
the Minister. We I think can very easily eliminate the first
on the one ground alone that the Act calls for these certificates to be in either English or Prenoh language, but It night
be argued that this ia not necessary on the ground that there
has been an understanding that this would not be Insisted upon
in the past, but apart from that the result of the lnvesti-
gation has been sufficient to show that these doouaente are
net in view of what they contain, and In view of the methods
in which they are obtained, they are not certificates of
identification as contemplated in this Act * They are certificates possibly that a certain man whose name la on thla
gation is of a limited nature, being confined to an investi- 1
gation ae to whether or not 18 Chinamen alledged merchants 1
or entitled to come into this country, as exempt under Section £
7 of the Act, the result of the investigation may effect other \
Chinamen who are applying from time to time, but at present
nominally at any rate our investigation is confined, to this
Those men may come in, it has of ton been pointed out, In two
ways, one if thoy bear proper certificates of identification
from their home government or failing that if thyy substantiate ♦
a
e        *
a
.
**t
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kj.^1 * 195
document Is some kini of a merchant. Whether or not he Is
under this Act I do not think on careful translation
it will appear and in the next place I would point out, that
these photographs which are attached and which Mr. Arthur
suggests are referred to in the body of the Document, axe not
marked for identification by the Chinese official who issues
the certificates, they bear the seal of the British Consul
which is put on subsequently and after the document has left
the control of the Viceroy and is in the hands of the applicant
or somebody else. This document to be a genuine certificate
of identification should be at least marked by the Chinese
Consul and the Chinese Viceroy, and there are many other
things, and it might be suggested that although these documents are not sufficient to pass the hdlder they might contain
something to entitle the consideration of them and in that
matter it will be necessary to further discuss them, passing
a e
then to the question as to whether or not the Comptroller and
V 1
Minister should be satisfied as to the Status of these applicants, I would point out the burden of establishing their
status is entirely upon the applicant, in the next place I
wish to point out all these applicants must under the circumstances be considered to be together for the reason that we
believe and we think our belief is justified from the fact
disclosed that these men have come here as a result of a prearranged conspiracy, if I may use that term between certain
Chineese firms or individuals in China and some party or
parties at this end and in my opinion, more particularly the
Chinese Interpreter Yip On or Yip Ting Sam as I believe hie
real name is. I think therefore, before considering in detail
the facts resulting from this investigation, in its application
to each individual applicant it would be well to outline what
we consider the general scheme which has been working and then
to show you to what a large extent, considering the limited ft V
x jrxi h ssoo
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WmtW* dh 196-
aannar of this inquiry, to what a largo extent it b*ars oat
tftat sohem* which we might consider a pre-oonc*iT*d th*ory
e
on which they are working. Apparently hs tine has gene on
arrangements have boon made by which certain individuals or
flrps in China have come to an understanding* with the Interpret
8r at this end by which thoy were able to come in touch
the
wi
immigrants from China who were not merchants and
secure from* them a sum of money ranging from Eleven to Twelve
Hundred Dollars in Mexican money• They then undertake more
or less definitely that for that sum of money they would be
Canada
These
some method secure a passport for the Intending
•'Mi
igrant
The evidence discloses without going into it in detail so
many ways in which that could be accomplisheda Possibly the
names of these applicants are the names of bonafido merchants
mm   •
possibly they are the names of men who would be considered
traders under that word used in the certificate although not
merchants within the meaning of our Act, at any rate the fact
that many of these men never saw even the Office of the Vioerey
and from other facts I have disclosed, which ehow how easy
it would be for these men who new the ropes In China to secure
passports for mon who are not bonafido merchants, having secured the passport it would follow as a matter of fact that
the British Consul would put his seal on  them. Thoy'.would
then
buy
• • A
|the tickets for these men and put them on the boat
thing further to be done would be to have an unders
tanding at this end in accordance with a prearran
aoy
That would be accomplished by some method of Identlflcatio
to the man at this end that these men were coming froa the
Conspirators at the Chinese end. Letters could be sent mention
ing
indication to the
  for drafts might be
which on the face of them would be an
at this end that these were the men «
*#
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* 197-
being sent and they could bo properly looked after and all
that would be necessary would be for the man at this ond
carried
cut here. That could be accomplished in a general way by
him having an opportunity to get in touch with these men be
fore the Comptroller had to pass on them. In fact we find
In fact we find from
the Information we now have, that Is just what did happen at
this end. I Ibelietfe that heretofore the interpreter, Mr. Yip
On has made it the practice of going to Victoria to meet eaoh
boat* I believe ostensibly he has been going on board to
a
assist the Customs officer to check off the Chinese passengers
on the
and I also understand from Mr. Poster and Mr* Lew
that this is not necessary. That he did not need his services
r  '
in checking up the Chinese, and that would show that Mr. Yip
On was able to do exactly what Mr. Lew did in this case. Go
to the Intermediate and have an interview with these men and
ans
might have* I say in brief that is the general outline of the
me
thods we believe to be in operation, and if these men
we
which have arrived on this particular ship appear to
come here in conformity with that general scheme that
believe to hav existed, then they would have on them the
burden of establishing their status in coming here, briefly
in detail, we find that Mr. Lew who went to Victoria with
Mr. Poster attained from one of the Chinaman that was coming
11 letters* The contents of those letters have been translated they refer to 11 of these applicants in general or
*- a
more or less in definite language and
afCfreg
yet quite suffic
iently definite for the purpose of any man who knew the
*
object of these letters being sent, these 11 men were introduced to Mr. Yip Ting Sam and he is asked to look after them
The peculiar thing is that none of these 11 men knew that
these letters were to be sent and did not know the party who
sent them, observing further that they were all signed by ~?
II •
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V 198
and tho letters were all
nature except that
a Stereotype
Those letters
usual course of this conspiracy which ae believe exist
hands of Yin On
o fact is
the fell into the hands of Mr* Low who happened to be there
by arrangement with the Government in his ste ad a further
than thai it cannot in any way be suggested these letters
were concocted by Mr. Lew, beoauee the man who Mr* Lew alleges
gave him those letters delivered the letters to Mr* Lew in
the presence of Mr. Poster and further than that the man
himself before you Mr. Comptroller, admitted he brought those
kletters from China and his explanation was that hh received
aving, from some person in China
whom he did not know, Shat may be true* a* these
were not
taken into the confidence as to the methods taken to get
and he further admitted that
-eve
rpretor who would meet him
this end. Following up the theory of the general conspiracy
we find the so 11 men with letters which they know nothing abl
We find two men whose names were not in these letters with
drafts which I propose to term until I am shown anything
contrary,"Fake" Drafts on Bing Tang Co., as Hing Pond
absolutely repudiate thorn; we f$|
Co
man
whose name does not appear in these 11 letters with an un-
que
stionably fake draft on Lee Yuen; one man whose name doe
not appear in the letters with a draft or letter on thle Hung
Pung Co* in Cumberland, our Inf(j
*niv la the draft no good but the firm on whoa It Is drawn
no good* This?Wong
and
are two other drafts one on Wing
and Wing Sang I understand la tho
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—-- 199-
one other on the Bank of;British forth America. You will find
that we have now accounted for 17, 11 of them being identified not to you Mr. ^Comptroller but to the Interpreter* He
would know them by 11 letters* 6 nore of them being identified by these drafts, 5 of which at any rate we know are
fakes* This only leaves 1 of the whole 18 to be accounted
for and this system or consipraoy which we are working ont
It being again: pointed out that no man who had letters had
drafts, and no man who had drafts had letters* One man Wing
Chin who had no letter, no draft and no money, but it is a
eman
wro
the letter to Chuok Mun and also to Yip Ting Sam or Yip On
e
the Interpreter. I wish to discuss in detail this transaction
of Wing Clnrs because I think it throws a peculiar light upon
the transaction at this end, something you would understand it
the scheme before it was carried out at this end*
pting
What!
happened was thle. fAfter the ship cane Into the Port, this
tw
the Chinese
Interpreter Yip On addressed ;for Yip Ting Sam and one to his
cousin in Town Wong Chuck Mun* These letters I will not read
again but I would suggest that both yourself and the minister
oin? Ottawa In checking this up would at this point refer to
both these letters, the translation og which appears in the
typewritten transcript at page 23 and 24 of the first examination held on Sept* 20th. These letters read in the light of
e
the knowledge and the suspicion which we have are very  in-
6
tructive and it oould be well understood that once It had
otten abroad among the conspirators at this end that the8
Mr
expect
would be apprehension.
known
given by this man quite unsuspectingly to Mr. Lew who hand
them I believe immediately to Mr. Poster. Just after that bat
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this man was examined for* the fir st time and this first
examination I refer to I understand he was examined by
almost everybody present as to this transaction and there
was
Mr* Lew or any person else into giving
He said quite frankly they were written as a result of the
*
fact * that Jffr. Lew had* said he had said he had not secret
word from Mr* Yip On whloh apparently was correct. And
then what happened? The word got abroad* and I think it Is
*>
quite obvious that as far as the shed is concerned it Is a
physical impossibility to exclude the outside from these
Either
I as far aB the shed or the C.P.R. Ship is con-
men
cerned, and it transpires that these conspirators at this
end got Information as to what happened and It was neoess-
ary to head that off at whatever cost. IThen tho result
was Wong Chuck Mun4 cane to the wharf with a letter addressed to the correct Chine so name, as we believe, of this
man that we
mt*
hon knew was called Mr* Wong Chin,
addressed in Chinese* That was handed by Chuck Mun to a
Chinese member of the crew on the ship to give te this
man
* Fortunately Mr* Low saw thla and took the number of
the orewSrtL'tk ^° letter which was contained in a package
of tea to Mr* Poster and the letter was handed by the
member of the crew to Mr* Poster and** the member of the crew
a
dmitted that he got it from the man on shore end had
nothing to do with it. The n
pas8eng*
ouro
they took no notice? of it. Wong Chin
did not take any notice at all Of this letter. This letter
apart from reproaching him for his foolishness in handing
fikat* letters to Mr. Lew instructed him to say that he did
s
of course Mr. Lew, the
argued that since "unis xevcer xiaa not reached the man
h
t - rf       pan
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there was no effectivonoss to it, but having failed in
this attempt, we know to our own knowledge th
reason why another attempt should not jsucceed
know
XT, aia succeed that this Wong Chin comes into this room
a day or so afterwards and corroborated tho whole thing
to a nicety by telling a story he had been told to tell
in the intercepted letter, not only that but you will I
remember and it Is as wo11 that the Minister at Ottawa
should have the opportunity of remembering what a nice
man
The
before he was brought up for his second examination a
decoy letter was written in Chinese by Mr. Lew purpotting
to come from Wong Chuck Mun and saying he was sorry
he did not see him before and also stating he enclosed a
piece of blank paper for him to write on. The blank
paper bearing small pin marks. This letter was addressed
exactly on the envelope as the intercepted letter was
and thrown into the shed by Mr. Poster where the Chinese
were and tho next morning the Chinese cook was instructed
to read off the name in Chinese as contained on the inter-
cepted letter, which he did and this man Wong Chin appeared and when he saw Mr. Poster ho immediately dropped back
and Mr. Poster went in and put his hand in his pocket
and the very first thing produced, this little piece o
blank paper containing the pin pricks, thus making te my
mind conclusively the last
.*»
link in the chain
connecting not only the confederates in China and Wong
Chuck Mun at this end but also linking up Yip On because
0f the fact that these letters written by Wong Chin were
written one to Yip On and one to Wong Chuck Mun, the one
to Yip On asking him to see Wong Chuck Mun and the one t
Wo#g Chuck Mun asking him to see Yip On and further,
carry out between them the understanding
r
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Denoted they already had and ae the Tetters wl&fshrnr
further as to Yip On getting money and all the rest of
it* In addition to that Mr* Conptroller, we have another
very interesting letter tho translation of which ie contained in the typewritten transcript at pages 5 and 6 of
the first* proceedings taken on September 20tg, which shows
the admission on the part of the man who wrote that latter
that fee was party to the conspiracy admitted that he had
actually, paid $1100 in Hoxioan money in order to be landed
here, a letter bearing in mind the outline of the scheme
I havo given,anybody reading that letter need not  be
further enlightened upon?it,f it is^illuminating itself
urthor
think
he ceoond
Chinese who was examined on thia present inquiry after
Counsel came here, who*admitted very frankly apparently
the whole scheme. Ho said ho had paid $1200 j£exican to a
man by name of Lue Yu Gee and Lue Yu Gee had
obtained his certificate of identification for him and
for him landing at
know axiything about
It is
Ing and
had
admi
that
thing
ft and that the draft was given
purpose of showing to the Comptroller at this j
back a moment I wish to point out that Z
moment ago that in accordance with thle generl
e find in this particular case 17 of there men
coning with a methodof identif lea tion for the beneff
the interpreter. Wefflnd only "one other nan that has
none of these thingn. Hah Kee Chan. I
having interviewed a cousin^ at the wharf here after 11.
uy
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having denied previously that he know anybody in Canada
and that may be the reason ho did not bear any ether
method of identification, as he had a cousin here who
would know and it may have been arranged in that way the
saie as Wong Chin had arranged It with his cousin Weng
Chuck Man who had boon In China and had come back the
boat before to arrange jit with Yip Ting Sam* As I say
i    i       , In ono sense
Mr* Comptroller, nafcxxjraljrxstofca this inquiry is not
concerned with what has happened on other occasions
In another sense it is and this is why I am dealing with
It. That if-this is an ieSlated instance we may be mis-
Jm± "        I lf ft
taken in our suspicions./on the other hand It is not an
isolated instance, but merely a spoke in a wheel that has
been working if or some time, then'our suspicions are more
strong and based on much stronger ground and for that
reason il think I am justified In stating I believe the
Information we have Obtained here leads us to believe this
Is not an isolated instance but is merely the discovery of
thing
triking
coincidence at any rate that the Bepartment at Ottawa found
It necessary to send Mr. Poster and Mr. Lew over to Victoria
I were so fortunate as to land on the boat in which
this nossibly alleged isolated instance had occurred. It
might happen that way but we would expect that the chances
would be against any such coincidence as that* I believo
there is nothing different in the appearance In the credent
ials or  drafts
feet;
y or money or anything else of these
<£ i and * *i    i
me
n who have arrived on this occasion, iksar tho men who have
arrived on previous occasions. If that is so, then the only
striking difference in this and other acoaslens Is the fact
that Mr. Poster and Mr.Lew happened to bo in Victoria instead of the man expected to be there Mr* Yip On, further
than that Mr* Comptroller, I think It Is worthy of comment,
1 * n*
LSI
< r
• iw
** J*
ft
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i 204-
form
, from their
Ways we know what Chinese merchants are in this Town and I
do not think from the appearance of theee men* that we would
numb
merchants, from the
their
I relations and
friends, wo found one man whose.relations and friends were
laundry men, his father is a laundry man in Philadelphia,
his other friends are laundry men in Toronto and any other
addresses he has were the addresses of ^laundry mon  in Chicago
We judge men by the company they keep and their relations,
might be that one rnan is so much more enterprising than the
others that he would be in a different class. That would
happen here in our country but in China I do not think it
would be as likely, but further than that, Mr. Comptroller,
you know that the Chinatown of this City is more or less
restricted in its nature, the city is growing and naturally
*
there is an increase in the business in the Chinese community
but it seems to me we cannot help but look with suspicion,
and suspect there is something wrong when we find that Chine j
merchants are coming into Vancouver, as many as 20 and 50
on a boat to start business in this city and that has been
ing
I say if these men are bonafide
merchants, and sending back to China by Cable as they each
say they intend to do and bring back money to start business
in Chinatown, you will find that the business district of
Chinatown at the rate it is going on will soon spread over
a large area of the City, and of course what applies to
Vancouver, will apply to the whole of the Dominion, but I
gather from the whole of the evidence that the bulk of these
men stated they intend starting business in Vancouver. I
believe it might be stated further that in Victoriag&thes
c
ertificates have not been accepted in the past excepting 3
where local men gave very strong evidence as to the bonafidd- ft*
*
dlrnm.     M
•
v%
.10
1
J ne0S of the holders, and I would like to say In cloeirj t>
it strikes mo asi remarkable that this man Yip On 1
been
has the apparent impli
confidence employers* I Tmmt  that people comotlnos become
confident in the honesty of en individual an^l_^r_ce too_^och
faith In him, but I really think thov^  has bocrT^too^a^TI
confidence placed In SM$ fi&mf and rooribly isis-plrcod and
further I think that "v. Io..ta- -eed -r. Lew eeo to be|	
lated on the very ab.3# >..  •■'■eer In which they have obtain el
formation for this ln-.nlry* Ae you are fulte aware Lira
tr oiler, it is a very di.\'\ioul& tM o^ to #ot any information
out of the Chinaman ahd I tVr--- i/e arc all to be congratulate "J
in getting a 8 much in Tor ..l1q?i e^ eo have.
mX
ft
MR. WOBSNOP:-
Thank! you gfnt^emea one and all for the vory  able
assistance you have given me in this matter

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